From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 1 00:44:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (mcguire at neurotica.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 01:44:58 -0400 Subject: ebay Burroughs IBM disks In-Reply-To: References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <5018A0CB.80102@gmail.com> <5018ADBA.9070009@gmail.com> <5018B363.6090207@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had a pair of Diablo 31s on my 8/e 25 years ago. They were fantastic; I'd love to have some of those again. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Aug 1, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > there was diablos > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> On 7/31/2012 9:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> Everyone used that style of disk. -- Will >>> >> >> Did they use DEC drives or produce their own ? >> >> From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 1 00:55:35 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 07:55:35 +0200 Subject: ebay Burroughs IBM disks In-Reply-To: References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <5018A0CB.80102@gmail.com> <5018ADBA.9070009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120801055534.GA32088@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:23:21PM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: > no idea but they look like rk05's i put a bid in on them Beware, they might look the same physically, but you might not be able to read them on your rk05. Is it possible to do some kind of "low level" format (whatever that means) using an rk05? /P From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 1 01:13:00 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 00:13:00 -0600 Subject: ebay Burroughs IBM disks In-Reply-To: <20120801055534.GA32088@Update.UU.SE> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <5018A0CB.80102@gmail.com> <5018ADBA.9070009@gmail.com> <20120801055534.GA32088@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5018C8EC.8050301@brouhaha.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Is it possible to do some kind of "low level" format (whatever that > means) using an rk05? /P They're hard-sectored. Every time you write to a sector it does a low-level format of the sector. Anything that will write to all the sectors of the pack will effectively format it. What you can't do that easily is change a 12-sector pack (e.g., for PDP-11) into a 16-sector pack (e.g., for PDP-8), or any other such sectoring changes. The sector marks are physical slots in the hub ridge. Some of us have speculated that a person could contrive a circuit with a PLL to fake the sector marks electronically, and ignore the physical ones, but I haven't heard of it actually being done. From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 1 01:26:40 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 08:26:40 +0200 Subject: ebay Burroughs IBM disks In-Reply-To: <5018C8EC.8050301@brouhaha.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <5018A0CB.80102@gmail.com> <5018ADBA.9070009@gmail.com> <20120801055534.GA32088@Update.UU.SE> <5018C8EC.8050301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <0c59f8147306e350186664a3097c2287.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Is it possible to do some kind of "low level" format (whatever that >> means) using an rk05? /P > > They're hard-sectored. Every time you write to a sector it does a > low-level format of the sector. Anything that will write to all the > sectors of the pack will effectively format it. > > What you can't do that easily is change a 12-sector pack (e.g., for > PDP-11) into a 16-sector pack (e.g., for PDP-8), or any other such > sectoring changes. The sector marks are physical slots in the hub > ridge. Some of us have speculated that a person could contrive a > circuit with a PLL to fake the sector marks electronically, and ignore > the physical ones, but I haven't heard of it actually being done. > So in that respect it would be worthy to know if the packs on eBay are 12 or 16 sectored? 12 sectored ones are relative more common than the 16 sectored ones AFAIK. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 01:40:12 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 02:40:12 -0400 Subject: ebay Burroughs IBM disks In-Reply-To: <0c59f8147306e350186664a3097c2287.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <5018A0CB.80102@gmail.com> <5018ADBA.9070009@gmail.com> <20120801055534.GA32088@Update.UU.SE> <5018C8EC.8050301@brouhaha.com> <0c59f8147306e350186664a3097c2287.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > So in that respect it would be worthy to know if the packs on eBay are > 12 or 16 sectored? 12 sectored ones are relative more common than the > 16 sectored ones AFAIK. They are for a Burroughs machine, apparently, so all bets are off as to what the sectoring is. They could even be something...weird... -- Will From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 1 03:22:25 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:22:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ebay Burroughs IBM disks In-Reply-To: <0c59f8147306e350186664a3097c2287.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <5018A0CB.80102@gmail.com> <5018ADBA.9070009@gmail.com> <20120801055534.GA32088@Update.UU.SE> <5018C8EC.8050301@brouhaha.com> <0c59f8147306e350186664a3097c2287.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> Is it possible to do some kind of "low level" format (whatever that >>> means) using an rk05? /P >> >> They're hard-sectored. Every time you write to a sector it does a >> low-level format of the sector. Anything that will write to all the >> sectors of the pack will effectively format it. Not correct. You really low-level format almost all hard-sectored media, including floppies, because most still contain a sector header that includes information like track and sector number before the actual data. And the RK05 makes no exception. It (or better, the controller) actually reads the sector header before writing a sector to ensure that the head is on the correct track. > So in that respect it would be worthy to know if the packs on eBay are > 12 or 16 sectored? 12 sectored ones are relative more common than the > 16 sectored ones AFAIK. Well, I also have some 24 sector packs (e.g. HP 7900), a lot of 4 sector packs (IBM 2315), and soft-sectored packs for HP 7905/7906. They all look the same, but differ in recording and/or track density. Christian From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Aug 1 03:23:39 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:23:39 +0100 Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <208CF7C9-4F6D-4445-87E5-0E8B88C75495@wickensonline.co.uk> I distinctly remember small MFM drives being offered for sale that replaced one of the internal floppy drives, although presumably they connected through to something other than the floppy drive connector on the mainboard. I also remember not being able to afford one at the time! Regards, Mark Sent from my iPad On 30 Jul 2012, at 19:10, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> NOTE: the number to the right of the period is 30 (1Eh), NOT 3 (03h) >> Even pickier: It is a "period", NOT a "decimal point", nor "radix point"; > ^^^^^^ > So what is it called in the UK? We call the end-of-sentence marker a > 'full stop', not a 'period'. > >> it serves as punctuation separating an integer, and a 2 digit decimal >> integer. > > Does that mean that the correct way to pronounce the verisons are 'three - > thirty' and 'three - thirty one'? > > [...] > >> Also, for those using hard disks, 3.30 had a 32M size limit.; 3.31 was the >> first version without the 32M limit. > > AFAIK the PPC640 never hard a hard disk. There were a pair of D conenctors > (DB25 and DC37 I think, I forget the gender) that carried the system bus. > There is rumoured to be an expansion chassis for it, I've never seen one. > I also beliecve that US versions diddn't have those connecotrs fitted, > due to the FCC emissions regulations. I guess it would support an XT hard > disk controller (with its own boot/BIOS ROM) connected there, but I've > never seen it done. > > -tony > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Aug 1 03:23:39 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:23:39 +0100 Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <208CF7C9-4F6D-4445-87E5-0E8B88C75495@wickensonline.co.uk> I distinctly remember small MFM drives being offered for sale that replaced one of the internal floppy drives, although presumably they connected through to something other than the floppy drive connector on the mainboard. I also remember not being able to afford one at the time! Regards, Mark Sent from my iPad On 30 Jul 2012, at 19:10, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> NOTE: the number to the right of the period is 30 (1Eh), NOT 3 (03h) >> Even pickier: It is a "period", NOT a "decimal point", nor "radix point"; > ^^^^^^ > So what is it called in the UK? We call the end-of-sentence marker a > 'full stop', not a 'period'. > >> it serves as punctuation separating an integer, and a 2 digit decimal >> integer. > > Does that mean that the correct way to pronounce the verisons are 'three - > thirty' and 'three - thirty one'? > > [...] > >> Also, for those using hard disks, 3.30 had a 32M size limit.; 3.31 was the >> first version without the 32M limit. > > AFAIK the PPC640 never hard a hard disk. There were a pair of D conenctors > (DB25 and DC37 I think, I forget the gender) that carried the system bus. > There is rumoured to be an expansion chassis for it, I've never seen one. > I also beliecve that US versions diddn't have those connecotrs fitted, > due to the FCC emissions regulations. I guess it would support an XT hard > disk controller (with its own boot/BIOS ROM) connected there, but I've > never seen it done. > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 1 04:16:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 05:16:08 -0400 Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <501840F3.8020900@brouhaha.com> References: <46711715-0B49-4408-B62F-BCF72135C050@gmail.com> <5017F87E.5040102@neurotica.com> <20120731125237.S47344@shell.lmi.net> <501840F3.8020900@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5018F3D8.4070108@neurotica.com> On 07/31/2012 04:32 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> When I read "ADM", I wondered what terminals had to do with whale oil. > > Lear Siegler Incorporated (LSI)'s first big contract for terminals was > with Archer Daniels Midland, which company sold other oils such as > jojoba oil as replacements for whale oil. Originally the terminal was > custom-designed to their requirements, and could not be sold to other > customers. Eventually LSI renegotiated the contract, allowing the > terminal to be marketed to the public, but they kept the "ADM-1" > designation, and continued using the ADM prefix for later terminals such > as the better-known ADM-3 and ADM-3A. That's a damn neat piece of tech history trivia! I have two of the blasted things here (a 3A and a 5) and I never knew that. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 1 07:13:32 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay jaeger) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 06:13:32 -0600 Subject: PDP11/05 front panel switch Message-ID: Did you look under paddle switches with surrounds? I think that is what they really are. Mine have an actual C&K number on the side, but I am not able to look at them right now. Anyway, I can contact you off list about this in a week or so. Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: >> Hi Again, >> >> While I'm still struggling with the powers supply in the /84, I >> decided to also take a good look at the /05. Amazingly, the power >> supplies on this one (1972) are 13 years older than those on the /84 >> (1985), yet their outputs look absolutely perfect. Plugged in the >> cards, and it seems to work, apart from one annoying little thing: one >> of the front panel switches is bad. I noticed it when I was >> depositing, then reading back some data, then took a multimeter to >> determine that it's the switch itself that's broken. Cosmetically it >> looks ok, but it doesn't work. It's just one of the address/data >> switches, all other switches work fine. Are there any replacements for >> these switches to be found? >> >> Camiel. > >The part number on these switches is "AIRPAX 028-317-0001", What's >special about them - I guess - is the mounting plate on the top. It >snaps into the metal rails that keep all the switches aligned, and >it's got two holes which the plastic switch cover snaps into. I >couldn't find anything similar in the C&K catalog. > >I've also tries cleaning it, but no luck yet. > >For now, I've replaced the failing switch with the HALT/ENABLE switch, >and replaced that one with a standard C&K switch. It doesn't look >pretty, but at least it'll work. > >Now the next thing is to connect a serial console to the CPU. Read up >a bit on this, and I'll need to put a MAX232 behind the TTL outputs. >Also, the little switch was set to the "1" position, which means >either 110 or 150 baud. I turned the switch to the "5" position, which >should get me 2400 baud.Time to find out - and check the cpu a bit >further in the process. I toggled in a simple program that sends a >"10101010" bit pattern to the serial port. Hooked up my scope to the >TTL output, and adjusted the potentiometer until I got the bit-period >to 417 usec. I'm now starting the search for a MAX232. > >Camiel. From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 08:30:38 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microsoft licensing In-Reply-To: References: <8CF3D540DB640F3-11DC-10B46@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > It gets worse, actually. Some of these "refurbishers" take in /all/ > computers, including those which are non-pc and older PCs that cannot run > modern versions of Microsoft Windows. Microsoft then requires as part of > their "license" that they destroy/scrap all equipment which can't handle > Windows 7 or newer (they won't allow them to reinstall older versions of > Microsoft Windows on the PCs). > > I found out about this last year when I confronted one of these "nonprofit > refurbishers". From what I gathered, their business model is a racket and > they are actually making money from selling electronics scrap. In effect they > are no different from a scrap dealer, except that they are tax exempt. > > ...and yes, they were destroying non-PC gear and older PCs alike. Anything > from a C64 or Apple II, VAX, to IBM 5150s or even old P200s (I still use many > P200/Socket 7 type systems, which is why I even began checking into what they > were doing with these old computers). Basically, if it wasn't a late > generation P4 or newer that could handle Windows 7, it was scrap. The local Salvation Army stores have deals with those clowns, as do all the other thrifts that used to provide good pickings for collectors. They won't even let you near collected items anymore. -- From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 1 09:37:28 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:37:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Microsoft licensing In-Reply-To: References: <8CF3D540DB640F3-11DC-10B46@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > >> It gets worse, actually. Some of these "refurbishers" take in /all/ >> computers, including those which are non-pc and older PCs that cannot run >> modern versions of Microsoft Windows. Microsoft then requires as part of >> their "license" that they destroy/scrap all equipment which can't handle >> Windows 7 or newer (they won't allow them to reinstall older versions of >> Microsoft Windows on the PCs). >> >> I found out about this last year when I confronted one of these "nonprofit >> refurbishers". From what I gathered, their business model is a racket and >> they are actually making money from selling electronics scrap. In effect >> they are no different from a scrap dealer, except that they are tax exempt. >> >> ...and yes, they were destroying non-PC gear and older PCs alike. Anything >> from a C64 or Apple II, VAX, to IBM 5150s or even old P200s (I still use >> many P200/Socket 7 type systems, which is why I even began checking into >> what they were doing with these old computers). Basically, if it wasn't a >> late generation P4 or newer that could handle Windows 7, it was scrap. > > The local Salvation Army stores have deals with those clowns, as do all the > other thrifts that used to provide good pickings for collectors. They won't > even let you near collected items anymore. Goodwill does the same thing now too. If it even remotely looks like a computer, or computer-related device, and it won't run Windows 7, Goodwill scraps it. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 1 11:37:51 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 10:37:51 -0600 Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <5018F3D8.4070108@neurotica.com> References: <46711715-0B49-4408-B62F-BCF72135C050@gmail.com> <5017F87E.5040102@neurotica.com> <20120731125237.S47344@shell.lmi.net> <501840F3.8020900@brouhaha.com> <5018F3D8.4070108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50195B5F.2070701@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > That's a damn neat piece of tech history trivia! It's also a complete fabrication to tie together well whale oil and ADM-x terminals. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 1 12:14:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120730203829.Y29234@shell.lmi.net> > > NOTE: the number to the right of the period is 30 (1Eh), NOT 3 (03h) > > Even pickier: It is a "period", NOT a "decimal point", nor "radix point"; > ^^^^^^ On Mon, 30 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > So what is it called in the UK? We call the end-of-sentence marker a > 'full stop', not a 'period'. Most Americans "have never heard of" "full stop"! How about calling it a "dot"? > > it serves as punctuation separating an integer, and a 2 digit decimal > > integer. > > Does that mean that the correct way to pronounce the verisons are 'three - > thirty' and 'three - thirty one'? THAT is how they are internally stored! To avoid confusion and miscommunication, I usually call it "Three point three zero" and "three point three one" > > Also, for those using hard disks, 3.30 had a 32M size limit.; 3.31 was the > > first version without the 32M limit. > AFAIK the PPC640 never hard a hard disk. There were a pair of D conenctors > (DB25 and DC37 I think, I forget the gender) that carried the system bus. > There is rumoured to be an expansion chassis for it, I've never seen one. > I also beliecve that US versions diddn't have those connecotrs fitted, > due to the FCC emissions regulations. I guess it would support an XT hard > disk controller (with its own boot/BIOS ROM) connected there, but I've > never seen it done. Yes. I was referring to ALL MS-DOS machines when referring to that version difference. "Also, for those using hard disks" was intended to reduce that set to only those machines on which people have installed hard disks. Even than, I was inaccurate, since with use of the network redirector (3.10? on), a larger drive CAN be used by letting the computer misunderstand and think that it is a remote drive on a network! (That is how 2/3 G CD-ROMs were used on MS-DOS - try doing CHKDSK sometime!) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 1 13:25:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 11:25:51 -0700 Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: <20120730203829.Y29234@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120730203829.Y29234@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5019123F.20372.D872F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2012 at 10:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > Most Americans "have never heard of" "full stop"! > How about calling it a "dot"? It's been a puzzlement to me why the Brits forsook the fabled "stroke" for "slash" in web addresses. But the Beeb says "slash- dot". --Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 1 13:46:49 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:46:49 +0200 Subject: rsx11m plus V2.1 / 3.0 Message-ID: Who is able to supply me with a simh '.tpc' format file of rsx11m plus version 2.1 and/or 3.0? These are covered under the Mentec hobbyist license. Please msg off list if needed. Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 1 14:43:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 15:43:14 -0400 Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <50195B5F.2070701@brouhaha.com> References: <46711715-0B49-4408-B62F-BCF72135C050@gmail.com> <5017F87E.5040102@neurotica.com> <20120731125237.S47344@shell.lmi.net> <501840F3.8020900@brouhaha.com> <5018F3D8.4070108@neurotica.com> <50195B5F.2070701@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <501986D2.3000500@neurotica.com> On 08/01/2012 12:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> That's a damn neat piece of tech history trivia! > > It's also a complete fabrication to tie together well whale oil and > ADM-x terminals. Dammit. ;) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 14:48:03 2012 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:48:03 -0700 Subject: Microsoft licensing In-Reply-To: References: <8CF3D540DB640F3-11DC-10B46@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 7:37 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> On Tue, 31 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >> >> > > > Goodwill does the same thing now too. If it even remotely looks like a > computer, or computer-related device, and it won't run Windows 7, Goodwill > scraps it. > Not all goodwills do. Here in Orange county they have by default become the only true computer parts store in the area. They still seem to only have an XP license, and no signs of windows 7. Everything gets a load of XP though. They have pretty much gotten rid of the "save that for charlie" practices, so when you walk thru the door, you pretty much have the same chances as the next guy to score something. A number of the recycler or rebuild guys have a local guy (it's crass, but this is in Santa Ana, and most guys are Mexican day laborers) with a cell phone calling with what comes out, and they literally jump all the stuff they can recognize. That is about the only gaming of the system I have seen. the orange county site sells a lot of equipment online with their own sale site. Much of the scrap from their own server operations as well as I suspect a lot of server donations go into their own site. http://www.shopgoodwill.com/listings/listbycat.asp?catid=7 Jim From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 14:58:59 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:58:59 +0200 Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <50195B5F.2070701@brouhaha.com> References: <46711715-0B49-4408-B62F-BCF72135C050@gmail.com> <5017F87E.5040102@neurotica.com> <20120731125237.S47344@shell.lmi.net> <501840F3.8020900@brouhaha.com> <5018F3D8.4070108@neurotica.com> <50195B5F.2070701@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> That's a damn neat piece of tech history trivia! > > > It's also a complete fabrication to tie together well whale oil and ADM-x > terminals. Either a very believable fabrication, or I'm just very gullible. Well done! From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 1 14:59:21 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:59:21 +0200 Subject: IBM model 71 printer Message-ID: During some cleaning of the attic I found an old (and forgotten) project of mine. It is a sort of printer, build around the back half of a IBM model 71 typewriter. >From what I remember, I got this from a thrift shop a long time ago, I guess I was a little intrigued about it. It looks like it was modified by a company of some sort (not IBM), and what they did basically was to cut off the keyboard section of the typewriter about half an inch from the cover which can be lifted. To be able to use the mechanism, they added a bar with solenoids which pull the little levers as well as to operate the clutch, advance one position and do a mechanical CR/LF. Also an paper roll holder (for teletype paper rolls) was added as well as a electrical switch & cover plate for being able to close the front. When I got it, it missed 3 solenoid for some of the little levers, finding a replacement should be possible, although they will be different I guess it should be possible to make some sort of interface for it to let is work as a simple printer. I was just wondering which company did these modifications. Any idea's? Ed BTW it runs a little slow, nothing a careful lube job will fix :) -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 13:46:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:46:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 30, 12 01:20:50 pm Message-ID: [Sorry for being net.slilent for a couple of days. My ISP 'upgraded' its mail service and caused me many headaches, soem of which are still there. And I am nto at all convinced the 'upgrade is desirable anyway] > But the 'Strad PPC is quite vanilla - it's a desktop 8086 motherboard > in a kinda-sorta portable case. It bombed in the market & the last Eleectrically, that's basically true, mechanically, it isn't. There is not standard form-factot motherboard in an Amstrad PPC. There are 2 boards joined by a longer version fo the DIN 41612 conenctor that contain the same sircuitry (in fact, IIRC, the chipset is that from an Amstrad PC1512 desktop machine) along with the LCD interface cirucitry, PSU (to run it from a 12V-only supply) and so on. > ones were sold off cheaply for less than the retail price of their > onboard 2400baud modem. There was even a utility sold to hook a PPC > to your ordinary computer & use it as an external modem. The TechRef says something like 'Telecommunication regulations prevent us from discolsoing any information on the design or operation of the internal Modem'. The service manual gives full schematics. Go figure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 13:55:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:55:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/05 front panel switch In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jul 30, 12 08:48:09 pm Message-ID: [...] > depositing, then reading back some data, then took a multimeter to > determine that it's the switch itself that's broken. Cosmetically it > looks ok, but it doesn't work. It's just one of the address/data > switches, all other switches work fine. Are there any replacements for > these switches to be found? Have you tried giving it a shot of propan-2-ol. amd if that doesn;t work takign the switch apart (most fo the time you can open such switches by bending up the tabs) and cleaning the bits separately. About 80-90% of the time this will help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 14:17:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:17:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 107, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: <5016FD19.5030702@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Jul 30, 12 11:31:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:48:32 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) wrote: > > Incidnetaslly, I never met a school maths or physics teacher who realsied > > that. > > I must say I cannot understand how you succeeded in getting such > universally and consistently incompetent teachers. During my year in the Nor can I, but I did. Most worryingly, I never had a teacher who inspired me > UK in the 5th form, *all* of my teachers were intelligent, clueful, > helpful and sensible. Admittedly, it was a private school (not one of > the expensive and fashionable ones) and may have been able to recruit Ah... That's the differnce. I went to what is called a 'public school', which _is_ an expensive private school Put it this way, I am entitled to put 'OP' after my name. Said school seemed not to bother too much with science/maths and I guess that's reflected i nteh teachers. > better teachers. I don't know if the state schools are generally bad or not. >From what Iv'e heard they're even worse. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 14:59:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:59:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 107, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Jul 31, 12 08:37:25 am Message-ID: > Here in the US, I've had both good and bad teachers of all types. The > worst example I can think of was my high school physics teacher, who > actually believed lightning is not electricity and tried to teach this > to the class (the reasoning being that it isn't forming a circuit > because the bolt only goes one way, which is also incorrect). Please get him to fly a kite in a thunderstorm. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 1 15:26:57 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <50195B5F.2070701@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Aug 1, 12 10:37:51 am" Message-ID: <201208012026.q71KQvlJ12583090@floodgap.com> > > That's a damn neat piece of tech history trivia! > > It's also a complete fabrication to tie together well whale oil and > ADM-x terminals. Hey, I swallowed the bait too. So, since you've unmasked the well-designed fabrication, what *does* the ADM in ADM-3A stand for? (You also realize that the original explanation will confidently be picked up as truth by the incautious.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Conscience makes egotists of us all. -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 1 15:47:22 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: <5019123F.20372.D872F3@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 1, 12 11:25:51 am" Message-ID: <201208012047.q71KlM6f14287058@floodgap.com> > > Most Americans "have never heard of" "full stop"! > > How about calling it a "dot"? > > It's been a puzzlement to me why the Brits forsook the fabled > "stroke" for "slash" in web addresses. But the Beeb says "slash- > dot". Let's use the solidus in pathnames. That'll be really fun. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 16:34:58 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:34:58 -0500 Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <201208012026.q71KQvlJ12583090@floodgap.com> References: <50195B5F.2070701@brouhaha.com> <201208012026.q71KQvlJ12583090@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I have no idea what ADM stands for off the top of my head but hunting around for factoids ftp://ftp.whtech.com/datasheets%2520and%2520manuals/Hardware/ADM3A.pdf is a manual for one and commonly calls the system an Interactive Display Terminal but does call the monitor part a "Display Monitor". http://www.old-computers.com/history/detail.asp?n=32&t=3 admits they aren't sure but gives a few educated guesses: "The ADM-3A was one of the first affordable serial display terminals manufactered by Lear-Siegler, Inc of Anaheim California. Why ADM? Nobody knows, maybe *American Dream Machine*or *Awful Dumb Monitor* or *Advanced Display Module* or, more seriously, *Anaheim Division, Manufacturing*..." You'd think they'd spell it out somewhere in an early manual though. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 1 17:45:50 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 22:45:50 +0000 Subject: rsx11m plus V2.1 / 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B92B08@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: E. Groenenberg Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 11:47 AM > Who is able to supply me with a simh '.tpc' format file of > rsx11m plus version 2.1 and/or 3.0? These are covered under > the Mentec hobbyist license. You do realize that Mentec no longer has anything to do with software for PDP-11 systems, real or simulated, right? I'm not trying to discourage your search, just pointing out the realities. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Aug 1 21:10:27 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 19:10:27 -0700 Subject: VAX/VMS TK50 tapes for sale. Message-ID: <5019E193.10305@gorge.net> Hi, A quick auction for a collection of 19 TK50 tapes I purchased as a lot around 2000. Twelve are original DEC branded / distribution tapes with factory labels. Cadre and Network research tapes are commercial release. The remaining four are working sets or backups with hand written labels. Tapes were stored covered and upright in a disused bedroom for the last 12 years. All tapes have write protect enabled. The tapes look to be in very good condition although I don't have a VAX or TK50 to check their integrity. VAX C V3.0 BIN VAXC030,DEBUGMP050 000MRB8183 AQ-NH24B-BE VMS V5.3 BIN DECWINDOWS &S/A BKUP 2-2 000MRB8364 AQ-MI45A-BE VMS V4-V5 BIN MANDATORY UPDATE 000MRB8679 AQ-JP22C-BE VMS V5.0 BIN 000MRB8777 AQ-LX08B-BE VMS V5.0-2 MAINTENANCE UPDATE 000MRB8794 AQ-LC99A-BE VMS V5.0 BIN MANDATORY UPDATE 000MRB8971 AQ-FT37H-BE VMS/WS SFT V4.0 BIN 000MRI1566 AQ-JP22E-BE VMS V5.3 BIN 1-2 000MUB3645 AQ-JP22F-BE VMS V5.4 BIN 1-2 00MRF9843A AQ-NH24C-BE VMS V5.4 BIN DECWINDOWS &S/A BKUP 2-2 00MRF9843B AQ-NH24C-BE VMS V5.4 MANDATORY UPDATE 00MRF9843C AQ-PLWNA-BE VMS DW MOTIF MUP V1.0A MF2701B CADRE CREV, FREV, CSB 4.0 FOR VAX/VMS TWK2040 CADRE OPT-SM386/V 386 SMARTPROBE SOURCE SOFTWARE V1.1 NETWORK RESEARCH CORP FNS-SUVS-TCP PROD: FNSTG6033 SCA, LSE, C Three tapes - UNKNOWN CONTENTS / backups STANDALONE BACKUP BOOTABLE DISK - VS200P? 3/8/89 This auction is for all 19 tapes. No cherry-picking. Approximate weight unpacked is 10-11 Lbs. Shipping will be specified by buyer. Tapes are eligible for media rate shipping. Please make an offer or direct all questions "off-list" to jimpdavis at gorge.net. If by Friday at 23:59 PDT received bids are too low for me to recoup my original cost, I will list them on Ebay Saturday morning. Payment is by Paypal only. Thanks, Jim Davis. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 1 22:45:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <201208012026.q71KQvlJ12583090@floodgap.com> References: <201208012026.q71KQvlJ12583090@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120801204030.P92711@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Hey, I swallowed the bait too. So, since you've unmasked the well-designed > fabrication, what *does* the ADM in ADM-3A stand for? > (You also realize that the original explanation will confidently be picked > up as truth by the incautious.) It is already probably what people will find if they GOOGLE it. Soon it will be in Wikipedia, with references that referenc e each other. Soon, all other accounts will be rejected, since, disunirregardless of truth, it is the BEST account. It just needs to get picked up for a TV documentary or two. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Aug 1 22:57:17 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 20:57:17 -0700 Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <20120801204030.P92711@shell.lmi.net> References: <201208012026.q71KQvlJ12583090@floodgap.com> <20120801204030.P92711@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5019FA9D.6050209@gorge.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Hey, I swallowed the bait too. So, since you've unmasked the well-designed >> fabrication, what *does* the ADM in ADM-3A stand for? >> (You also realize that the original explanation will confidently be picked >> up as truth by the incautious.) > It is already probably what people will find if they GOOGLE it. Soon it > will be in Wikipedia, with references that referenc e each other. Soon, > all other accounts will be rejected, since, disunirregardless of truth, it > is the BEST account. > > It just needs to get picked up for a TV documentary or two. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Not naming names, but more than few years ago, top level US officials refined to a science the art of telling lies and getting them accepted as fact by sheer repetition. Jim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 1 23:42:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Core oil; Re: IBM 7090 mainframe! In-Reply-To: <5019FA9D.6050209@gorge.net> References: <201208012026.q71KQvlJ12583090@floodgap.com> <20120801204030.P92711@shell.lmi.net> <5019FA9D.6050209@gorge.net> Message-ID: <20120801213843.H92711@shell.lmi.net> > > It just needs to get picked up for a TV documentary or two. On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, jimpdavis wrote: > Not naming names, but more than few years ago, top level US officials > refined to a science the art of telling lies and getting them accepted > as fact by sheer repetition. That's been a tradition, as long as there have been politicians. I was just thinking in terms of a Cringely "documentary" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 1 23:44:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 21:44:19 -0700 Subject: TIROS-related stuff Message-ID: <5019A333.22904.30EAD0D@cclist.sydex.com> A fellow posted some stuff related to the TIROS weather satellite on Erik's Vintage Computer forum. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?31952-Seeking- info-on-Satellite-Weather-gear-%28Was-Seeking-info&highlight=multibus It appears to be a Multibus system that uses two Omnibyte 68K CPUs, a Matrox video card and an unidentified fourth card as well as some sort of calibration board (not Multibus apparently). Does anyone know anything about this? The owner is completely ignorant about this sort of thing and wonders if he should just scrap the whole thing. --Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Aug 2 00:36:45 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 07:36:45 +0200 Subject: rsx11m plus V2.1 / 3.0 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B92B08@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B92B08@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > From: E. Groenenberg > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 11:47 AM > >> Who is able to supply me with a simh '.tpc' format file of >> rsx11m plus version 2.1 and/or 3.0? These are covered under >> the Mentec hobbyist license. > > You do realize that Mentec no longer has anything to do with > software for PDP-11 systems, real or simulated, right? > > I'm not trying to discourage your search, just pointing out the > realities. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > Hmm, ok, and those granted licenses have been revoked then? If not, would that not imply these grants are still valid? I'm not a solicitor, so these assumptions may be wrong. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Aug 1 04:24:23 2012 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:24:23 +0100 Subject: ebay Burroughs IBM disks In-Reply-To: References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <5018A0CB.80102@gmail.com> <5018ADBA.9070009@gmail.com> <20120801055534.GA32088@Update.UU.SE> <5018C8EC.8050301@brouhaha.com> <0c59f8147306e350186664a3097c2287.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <76C1DBB2691E4EEFB43B4037BAC6B710@xp32vm> >>>> > So in that respect it would be worthy to know if the packs on eBay are > 12 or 16 sectored? 12 sectored ones are relative more common than the > 16 sectored ones AFAIK. They are for a Burroughs machine, apparently, so all bets are off as to what the sectoring is. They could even be something...weird... <<<< They are labelled "B-32" which, combined with a bit of research in the bitsavers archive leads me to believe that they are For a B700 series machine 32 sectors each with 180 bytes (+headers) of user data (almost certainly hard sectored) Either 200 or 400 tracks Andy From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 1 13:39:02 2012 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:39:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? Message-ID: > AFAIK the PPC640 never hard a hard disk. There were a pair of D conenctors > (DB25 and DC37 I think, I forget the gender) that carried the system bus. > There is rumoured to be an expansion chassis for it, I've never seen one. > I also beliecve that US versions diddn't have those connecotrs fitted, > due to the FCC emissions regulations. I guess it would support an XT hard > disk controller (with its own boot/BIOS ROM) connected there, but I've > never seen it done. I have (with the hard drive fitted internally rather than externally); the hard drive controller went in the modem bay, and had its bus connection soldered to the PCB side of the two D connectors aforementioned. -- John Elliott From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 02:15:24 2012 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 00:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1343891724.48873.YahooMailNeo@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Absolutely not true. I both sold, and owned AST 286 and 386 systems back in the late 1980's, and early 1990's. They were VERY nice systems with a stylish case. Al From: Fred Cisin >> We sold AST, IBM, Viglen, Apricot, lots of Amstrads - the 1st cheap PC >> clones in the UK & also big in Germany under the Schneider brand, I >> believe. > >AST here was expansion boards, no complete machines;? > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 2 04:59:43 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 04:59:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> ones were sold off cheaply for less than the retail price of their >> onboard 2400baud modem. There was even a utility sold to hook a PPC >> to your ordinary computer & use it as an external modem. > > The TechRef says something like 'Telecommunication regulations prevent us > from discolsoing any information on the design or operation of the > internal Modem'. The service manual gives full schematics. Go figure. There very well may have been some confusion as to whether or not they could legally disclose the technical details of the modem. Which chipset did the modem use? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Aug 2 05:51:34 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:51:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: rsx11m plus V2.1 / 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Who is able to supply me with a simh '.tpc' format file of > rsx11m plus version 2.1 and/or 3.0? These are covered under > the Mentec hobbyist license. ftp.trailing-edge.com --> /pub/rsxdists/rsx11mplus21_stand_bru.zip Christian From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Aug 2 06:10:42 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:10:42 +0200 Subject: rsx11m plus V2.1 / 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> Who is able to supply me with a simh '.tpc' format file of >> rsx11m plus version 2.1 and/or 3.0? These are covered under >> the Mentec hobbyist license. > > ftp.trailing-edge.com --> /pub/rsxdists/rsx11mplus21_stand_bru.zip > > Christian > Ahh, yes, however, that tape image only contains the stand alone BRU, not the distribution tape itself, like f.e. the 4.1 zipfile does. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From julian at jnt.me.uk Thu Aug 2 07:03:04 2012 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:03:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK Message-ID: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> OK, it'll be free to a bad home too. I've had it sat in a garage for8 or 9 years (boxed and on a small pallet) and I'm unlikely to do anything with it any time soon and 'we' are having a clear out as the garage is being converted into another room... Is this of any use / interest to anyone? Was supposedly working when I got it, but I've no way to test it. If it's not of any use to anyone, does anyone have a spare TSV05 / M7196 so I can at least pretend I might do something with it? Before anyone asks, shipping this is not an option... Julian From julian at jnt.me.uk Thu Aug 2 07:16:39 2012 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:16:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1343909799.67442.YahooMailNeo@web87703.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Apologies for the shocking way the web based mail client formatted this... Julian ----- Original Message ----- > From: Julian Smith > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 13:03 > Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK > > OK, it'll be free to a bad home too. > > I've had it sat in a garage for8 or 9 years (boxed and on a small > ? ? ? pallet) and I'm unlikely to do anything with it any time soon and > ? ? ? 'we' are having a clear out as the garage is being converted into > ? ? ? another room... > > Is this of any use / interest to anyone? Was supposedly working > ? ? ? when I got it, but I've no way to test it. > > If it's not of any use to anyone, does anyone have a spare TSV05 / > ? ? ? M7196 so I can at least pretend I might do something with it? > > Before anyone asks, shipping this is not an option... > > Julian > From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 07:58:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:58:22 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2AA95AAA-E477-417A-961F-8F4570B3395B@gmail.com> On Aug 2, 2012, at 8:03 AM, Julian Smith wrote: > OK, it'll be free to a bad home too. > > I've had it sat in a garage for8 or 9 years (boxed and on a small > pallet) and I'm unlikely to do anything with it any time soon and > 'we' are having a clear out as the garage is being converted into > another room... > > Is this of any use / interest to anyone? Was supposedly working > when I got it, but I've no way to test it. > > If it's not of any use to anyone, does anyone have a spare TSV05 / > M7196 so I can at least pretend I might do something with it? I don't have a spare, but if it helps, the TS05 is just a re-badged Cipher F880 with the nonstandard 3200 bpi option apparently removed. it's a pretty standard Pertec drive, so I imagine any Pertec tape interface out there ought to work with it. I would love one to use as a spare for my aging TS05 which is very poorly behaved these days, but I'm an ocean away. - Dave From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Aug 2 11:25:22 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 11:25:22 -0500 Subject: TIROS-related stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501AA9F2.2030000@pico-systems.com> Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 21:44:19 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: TIROS-related stuff Message-ID: <5019A333.22904.30EAD0D at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A fellow posted some stuff related to the TIROS weather satellite on Erik's Vintage Computer forum. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?31952-Seeking- info-on-Satellite-Weather-gear-%28Was-Seeking-info&highlight=multibus It appears to be a Multibus system that uses two Omnibyte 68K CPUs, a Matrox video card and an unidentified fourth card as well as some sort of calibration board (not Multibus apparently). Does anyone know anything about this? The owner is completely ignorant about this sort of thing and wonders if he should just scrap the whole thing. Hmmm, the TIROS system was WAY before Multibus and M68K, the first one went up in 1960. I have a few bits of the TIROS sun angle computer, and looked at some of the gear that recorded the slow-scan images to film. Alden was the big maker of weather fax machines in the 1970-1980 range. The date on the plate indicates it was a 1984 NOAA contract and the unit was built in 1987. I can't believe there was any TIROS system operational at that time, I suspect the TIROS label was a historical artifact in Alden's documentation, and that this system was actually used to receive and print out GOES images. The GOES satellite sent high bit rate data while the mirror swept the image of the earth, then received a processed image from a ground station during the time the mirror was sweeping space and relayed that to ground receiving stations for printout. Ships at sea could print out weather maps in near real time, for instance. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 2 12:02:51 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 10:02:51 -0700 Subject: Looking for DEC VT125 Maintenance print sheets (since VK100 MP is AWOL) In-Reply-To: <5014B08C.5050409@gmail.com> References: <5014B08C.5050409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <501AB2BB.4020106@bitsavers.org> On 7/28/12 8:39 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the DEC VT125 Maintenance print sheet set? > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt125/MP01053_VT125_Mar82.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt132/MP00748_VT132_Jan80.pdf From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 2 12:42:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 13:42:26 -0400 Subject: TIROS-related stuff In-Reply-To: <501AA9F2.2030000@pico-systems.com> References: <501AA9F2.2030000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <501ABC02.4040909@neurotica.com> On 08/02/2012 12:25 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Hmmm, the TIROS system was WAY before Multibus and M68K, the first one > went up > in 1960. I have a few bits of the TIROS sun angle computer, and looked > at some of the > gear that recorded the slow-scan images to film. > > Alden was the big maker of weather fax machines in the 1970-1980 range. > The date on the plate indicates it was a 1984 NOAA contract and the unit > was > built in 1987. I can't believe there was any TIROS system operational > at that > time, I suspect the TIROS label was a historical artifact in Alden's > documentation, > and that this system was actually used to receive and print out GOES > images. > The GOES satellite sent high bit rate data while the mirror swept the image > of the earth, then received a processed image from a ground station > during the time the mirror was sweeping > space and relayed that to ground receiving stations for printout. Still does, in fact! I wonder if any of this hardware is still in usable condition. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 2 13:04:14 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 19:04:14 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <2AA95AAA-E477-417A-961F-8F4570B3395B@gmail.com> References: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <2AA95AAA-E477-417A-961F-8F4570B3395B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08ad01cd70d9$3e11a3d0$ba34eb70$@ntlworld.com> I am in Manchester, not sure if I have space for it though. Is it the whole of a cabinet, or just one part of it? Will be away for a bit now, let me know if you still have it in a couple of weeks, I could at least take a look, but won't promise to take it. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: 02 August 2012 13:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK > > On Aug 2, 2012, at 8:03 AM, Julian Smith wrote: > > > OK, it'll be free to a bad home too. > > > > I've had it sat in a garage for8 or 9 years (boxed and on a small > > pallet) and I'm unlikely to do anything with it any time soon and > > 'we' are having a clear out as the garage is being converted into > > another room... > > > > Is this of any use / interest to anyone? Was supposedly working > > when I got it, but I've no way to test it. > > > > If it's not of any use to anyone, does anyone have a spare TSV05 / > > M7196 so I can at least pretend I might do something with it? > > I don't have a spare, but if it helps, the TS05 is just a re-badged Cipher F880 > with the nonstandard 3200 bpi option apparently removed. > it's a pretty standard Pertec drive, so I imagine any Pertec tape interface out > there ought to work with it. > > I would love one to use as a spare for my aging TS05 which is very poorly > behaved these days, but I'm an ocean away. > > > - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 2 14:31:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 20:31:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Aug 2, 12 04:59:43 am Message-ID: > There very well may have been some confusion as to whether or not they > could legally disclose the technical details of the modem. Which chipset > did the modem use? The 2400 bps [1] part is the Rockewell chipset, along with amn AM7910 for the slwoer speeds (things liek V21, V23). I forget what the microcontroller is. IIRC there's an 8250 on the board that connects to the Amstrac bus. The serial side of that connects to the modem stuff., In other words it's an exernal modem and a serial port on one PCB (minus the RS232 level shifters). Actually, a lot of internal modems were like that, [1] Not strictly 2400 baud, at least not on the telephone line side. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 2 18:02:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:02:37 -0700 Subject: TIROS-related stuff In-Reply-To: <501AA9F2.2030000@pico-systems.com> References: , <501AA9F2.2030000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <501AA49D.9048.199171C@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2012 at 11:25, Jon Elson wrote: > Alden was the big maker of weather fax machines in the 1970-1980 > range. The date on the plate indicates it was a 1984 NOAA contract and > the unit was built in 1987. I can't believe there was any TIROS > system operational at that time, I suspect the TIROS label was a > historical artifact in Alden's documentation, and that this system was > actually used to receive and print out GOES images. The GOES satellite > sent high bit rate data while the mirror swept the image of the earth, > then received a processed image from a ground station during the time > the mirror was sweeping space and relayed that to ground receiving > stations for printout. Ships at sea could print out weather maps in > near real time, for instance. Well, if anyone's interested, please contact the guy. Those Omnibyte CPUs and Matrox video are pretty nice, as is the big box with PSUs. Otherwise, I suspect the guy will scrap it. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Aug 2 20:16:27 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 21:16:27 -0400 Subject: TIROS-related stuff In-Reply-To: <5019A333.22904.30EAD0D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5019A333.22904.30EAD0D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <501B266B.30606@snarc.net> > A fellow posted some stuff related to the TIROS weather satellite on Erik's Vintage Computer forum. Speaking of which: there's a historic TIROS dish on the grounds of central New Jersey's InfoAge Science Center, which also houses the MARCH computer museum. http://www.campevans.org/_CE/html/tiros1-2.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 2 20:18:53 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones Message-ID: Does anyone here know of anyone who makes sets of napier's bones? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 20:26:16 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 18:26:16 -0700 Subject: Go Science !! In-Reply-To: <501B266B.30606@snarc.net> References: <5019A333.22904.30EAD0D@cclist.sydex.com> <501B266B.30606@snarc.net> Message-ID: <501B28B8.4060006@gmail.com> This is amazing and happens 10:30 PDT this Sunday. http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Aug 2 20:26:49 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 21:26:49 -0400 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <661C4BB6-8EB4-4D7C-953A-5F112EEFB14F@me.com> One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules, the guys on this mailing list can point you in the right direction: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sliderule/ -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-02, at 9:18 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here know of anyone who makes sets of napier's bones? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Aug 2 23:32:04 2012 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 23:32:04 -0500 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501B5444.1000003@tdh.com> On 8/2/2012 8:18 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here know of anyone who makes sets of napier's bones? I never did find anyone making them for sale, so at the time, I just made my own. Unfortunately, the best picture I could find at the moment is not so great, but I used 1"x1" square wooden dowels I did heat transfer printing to. Also I then just made a spreadsheet on paper to cutout. I haven't brought them out in a while, but I had them at VCFMW2.0 and a few others. You can see them on the table in front of the holder with the paper ones. http://www.flickr.com/photos/geekmuseum/2908493671/sizes/o/in/set-72157607684718320/ From evan at snarc.net Thu Aug 2 23:43:57 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 00:43:57 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 demo on video Message-ID: <501B570D.8070402@snarc.net> Here's me, at HOPE a few weeks ago, demoing the Mimeo 1. I come off as a total dork on camera, vs. only mostly a dork in real life. Anyway .... here goes .... please keep the heckling to a minimum: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/07/31/2319249/march-presents-apple-i-reproduction-in-action-at-hope-9#media From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Aug 3 00:08:57 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 01:08:57 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 demo on video In-Reply-To: <501B570D.8070402@snarc.net> References: <501B570D.8070402@snarc.net> Message-ID: <501B5CE9.8050108@atarimuseum.com> Evan, Whats with the loungers in the background.... you sounded a little nervous or tense... maybe too much coffee? In the immortal words of Chris Knight: "I'm only telling you this because I care. There are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing." ;-) all kidding aside, very cool video, love the t-shirt btw! Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > Here's me, at HOPE a few weeks ago, demoing the Mimeo 1. > > I come off as a total dork on camera, vs. only mostly a dork in real > life. > > Anyway .... here goes .... please keep the heckling to a minimum: > http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/07/31/2319249/march-presents-apple-i-reproduction-in-action-at-hope-9#media > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 00:37:45 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:37:45 +0100 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 2:18 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here know of anyone who makes sets of napier's bones? > just google napier's bones price and more than one supplier Dave Caroline From jonas at otter.se Thu Aug 2 15:53:36 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 22:53:36 +0200 Subject: bad teachers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501AE8D0.8070902@otter.se> On Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:46:28 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Ah... That's the differnce. I went to what is called a 'public > school', which _is_ an expensive private school Put it this way, I am > entitled to put 'OP' after my name. Said school seemed not to bother > too much with science/maths and I guess that's reflected i nteh teachers. Yes I know a 'public school' is not public, but private :-) Old Persean? Old Pauline? Old Pangbournian? Order of Preachers? Ordinary Prat? ;-) I could fancy putting 'OP' after my name, with the last interpretation :-) >> better teachers. I don't know if the state schools are generally bad or not. > >From what Iv'e heard they're even worse. Mine was run by the Quakers. They were actually very nice people and didn't force their religion on you, except to require attendance at Sunday Meetings if you had no other church to go to. Meetings were usually only an hour's complete silence, anyway, so it wasn't oppressive in any way. They did have good, and very nice, teachers. Not to say that it didn't cost a lot of money to go there, but not like a public school. /Jonas From richardlynch3 at verizon.net Thu Aug 2 19:46:48 2012 From: richardlynch3 at verizon.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2012 19:46:48 -0500 Subject: Plano to Round Rock TX - uhaul space avail - short notice, leaving tomorrow morning Message-ID: U-haul rented me a little larger van than necessary so I?ve got some space if someone needs to send a smallish system from Plano to Round Rock. Call 469-877-9543 if interested. Richard Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 01:47:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 02:47:18 -0400 Subject: bad teachers In-Reply-To: <501AE8D0.8070902@otter.se> References: <501AE8D0.8070902@otter.se> Message-ID: <501B73F6.7000100@neurotica.com> On 08/02/2012 04:53 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > Mine was run by the Quakers. They were actually very nice people and > didn't force their religion on you, except to require attendance at > Sunday Meetings if you had no other church to go to. Meetings were > usually only an hour's complete silence, anyway, so it wasn't oppressive > in any way. They did have good, and very nice, teachers. Not to say that > it didn't cost a lot of money to go there, but not like a public school. "Meeting" singular, not plural. I have a good bit of experience with these chaps. Generally good folk, those Quakers, as opposed to some religious types. Absolutely zero "beating people over the head with YOUR religion" in their circles. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 02:47:31 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 08:47:31 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <501B8213.5060508@gmail.com> On 02/08/2012 13:03, Julian Smith wrote: > OK, it'll be free to a bad home too. > > I've had it sat in a garage for8 or 9 years (boxed and on a small > pallet) and I'm unlikely to do anything with it any time soon and > 'we' are having a clear out as the garage is being converted into > another room... > > Is this of any use / interest to anyone? Was supposedly working > when I got it, but I've no way to test it. > > If it's not of any use to anyone, does anyone have a spare TSV05 / > M7196 so I can at least pretend I might do something with it? > > Before anyone asks, shipping this is not an option... If its actually on a pallet shipping in the UK is certainly possible. And although I live in Manchester and am very interested I have no where to store it myself. There are at least three of us on this list in Manchester so perhaps we need to get together and look at having some shared location we can we can have working kit.... > Julian > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 03:12:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 04:12:53 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK Message-ID: Good grief, these are not large or heavy devices. You know the TS05 is a little tabletop drive, right? Not much bigger than a big PeeCee. -Dave Dave Wade wrote: >On 02/08/2012 13:03, Julian Smith wrote: >> OK, it'll be free to a bad home too. >> >> I've had it sat in a garage for8 or 9 years (boxed and on a small >> pallet) and I'm unlikely to do anything with it any time soon and >> 'we' are having a clear out as the garage is being converted into >> another room... >> >> Is this of any use / interest to anyone? Was supposedly working >> when I got it, but I've no way to test it. >> >> If it's not of any use to anyone, does anyone have a spare TSV05 / >> M7196 so I can at least pretend I might do something with it? >> >> Before anyone asks, shipping this is not an option... >If its actually on a pallet shipping in the UK is certainly possible. >And although I live in Manchester and am very interested I have no where >to store it myself. There are at least three of us on this list in >Manchester so perhaps we need to get together and look at having some >shared location we can we can have working kit.... >> Julian >> >-- Dave Wade G4UGM >Illegitimi Non Carborundum > >*** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester >now operational ***** >**** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links >and schedules. *** From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Aug 3 03:46:13 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:46:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: rsx11m plus V2.1 / 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2012, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Ahh, yes, however, that tape image only contains the stand alone BRU, > not the distribution tape itself, like f.e. the 4.1 zipfile does. Oh, you're right. I should have had a look at the file size. I don't think that I have RSX11M-Plus floating around on an RK05 or RL0[12] disk, either. Christian From alex at cheltscum.co.uk Fri Aug 3 03:55:11 2012 From: alex at cheltscum.co.uk (Alex Melt) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:55:11 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <501B8213.5060508@gmail.com> References: <1343908984.19558.YahooMailNeo@web87702.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <501B8213.5060508@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry chaps, I'm popping over this weekend to pick it up. On 3 Aug 2012, at 08:47, Dave Wade wrote: > On 02/08/2012 13:03, Julian Smith wrote: >> OK, it'll be free to a bad home too. >> >> I've had it sat in a garage for8 or 9 years (boxed and on a small >> pallet) and I'm unlikely to do anything with it any time soon and >> 'we' are having a clear out as the garage is being converted into >> another room... >> >> Is this of any use / interest to anyone? Was supposedly working >> when I got it, but I've no way to test it. >> >> If it's not of any use to anyone, does anyone have a spare TSV05 / >> M7196 so I can at least pretend I might do something with it? >> >> Before anyone asks, shipping this is not an option... > If its actually on a pallet shipping in the UK is certainly possible. And although I live in Manchester and am very interested I have no where to store it myself. There are at least three of us on this list in Manchester so perhaps we need to get together and look at having some shared location we can we can have working kit.... >> Julian >> > -- Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** > **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From julian at jnt.me.uk Fri Aug 3 05:31:10 2012 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:31:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK Message-ID: <1343989870.65419.YahooMailNeo@web87706.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Dave It's not the practicality of shipping it that's the issue, it's just my preference was for someone to turn up and take it away as it's the simplest option for me. Selfish, I know. But it worked out for everybody involved... Julian On 03/08/2012 09:12, Dave McGuire wrote: > >?? Good grief, these are not large or heavy devices.? You know the TS05 is a little tabletop drive, right?? Not much bigger than a big PeeCee. > >????????????? -Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 06:56:02 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 04:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Go Science !! Message-ID: <1343994962.73389.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Ill get excited when a collaborative open source vessel touches Martian soil :) ------------------------------ On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:26 PM PDT mc68010 wrote: >This is amazing and happens 10:30 PDT this Sunday. http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 09:27:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:27:45 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C00BE6F-4FCF-403C-940A-07465ED3FC56@gmail.com> On Aug 3, 2012, at 4:12 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Good grief, these are not large or heavy devices. You know the TS05 is a little tabletop drive, right? Not much bigger than a big PeeCee. I suppose that's a matter of perspective. Mine is 6 rack spaces and 80 pounds; it's heavy enough that I'm careful lifting it off the floor so as not to damage my back. It can certainly be expensive to ship. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 10:22:57 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 10:22:57 -0500 Subject: Wanted: IBM 2315 packs Message-ID: <501BECD1.5060708@gmail.com> Hi all, Does anyone happen to have any IBM 2315 disk packs[1] available? The National Museum of Computing in the UK are at the point where they're looking for a few as part of the restoration of their 1130 system. [1] or functional equivalents to the genuine IBM ones, if any exist; by the sounds of it packs from various sources may physically fit, but sectoring / disk surface / other details vary. thanks, Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 10:24:33 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:24:33 -0400 Subject: Wanted: IBM 2315 packs In-Reply-To: <501BECD1.5060708@gmail.com> References: <501BECD1.5060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: > [1] or functional equivalents to the genuine IBM ones, if any exist; by the > sounds of it packs from various sources may physically fit, but sectoring / > disk surface / other details vary. Nashua 4414 is an equivalent. -- Will From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 3 11:56:06 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:56:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> There very well may have been some confusion as to whether or not they >> could legally disclose the technical details of the modem. Which chipset >> did the modem use? > > The 2400 bps [1] part is the Rockewell chipset, along with amn AM7910 > for the slwoer speeds (things liek V21, V23). I forget what the > microcontroller is. Ah, that's probably why then. A 2400 baud modem would have been V.22bis and Rockwell was really pushing their V.22bis stuff back then. Amstard no doubt signed a non-disclosure agreement with Rockwell when they obtained the datasheets and sample implementation drawings for the Rockwell chipset. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the modem design had been very closely based on the sample implementation from Rockwell. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Aug 3 11:59:23 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:59:23 +0000 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <0C00BE6F-4FCF-403C-940A-07465ED3FC56@gmail.com> References: <0C00BE6F-4FCF-403C-940A-07465ED3FC56@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B907F14F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 7:28 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK > > On Aug 3, 2012, at 4:12 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > Good grief, these are not large or heavy devices. You know the TS05 is a > little tabletop drive, right? Not much bigger than a big PeeCee. > > I suppose that's a matter of perspective. Mine is 6 rack spaces and 80 > pounds; it's heavy enough that I'm careful lifting it off the floor so as not to > damage my back. It can certainly be expensive to ship. > I guess it depends on the size of your table. :-) Yes, the TS05 (I have a couple of F880s) are smaller than a TU81, but still somewhat larger than a full-size PC tower in all but perhaps depth, and heavy enough to make the shippers put you on their Christmas card list. Be exceedingly careful with the front door: both of mine have cracked doors, which doesn't affect the functionality of the unit but makes it a pain to mount/dismount tapes. On one of them, the mounting holes are stripped, too, and I have to use the maintenance function to fool it into believing the door is really closed. -- Ian From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 3 12:07:59 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:07:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: References: <5C1C1BA9B5EC4AAEAB1F8D7CBA7376A4@vostro> <20120729143117.H90691@shell.lmi.net> <20120729164726.A90691@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jul 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 July 2012 00:58, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >>> The only 3.31 I met was Compaq DOS 3.31, which as you say removed the >>> 32MB disk partition restriction. It ran on anything, of course. >> >> Except that it's MODE.COM (.EXE? (gotta check a copy sometime, and see >> what the first two bytes are!)) contained [EGA,CGA] options that are >> inapplicable for video boards other than the Compaq ones (that had an >> internal and an external video). Certainly wouldn't hurt to run it on >> other machines. > > I'll take your word - Compaqs were so *very* expensive that we mainly > ran them as servers in those days. Some old Compaqs are still being used as small servers, too. I currently have three Socket-7 based Compaq Deskpro 2000 and Deskpro 4000 systems from ~1997-1998 still running today. Those machines replaced some earlier 486 based Deskpros, which had in-turn replaced some 386-based Deskpros. I really wouldn't mind adding another 3 to 5 DP4000 or DP2000 systems to the group, either, if I could find them. So far the only machines I've seen on the surplus market have been from scrappers who think they can sell them for USD $100-300 each plus another $50+ for shipping (which is obviously /never/ going to happen given the cost of newer low-end PCs today). From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 3 12:10:13 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:10:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Microsoft licensing In-Reply-To: References: <8CF3D540DB640F3-11DC-10B46@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, jim stephens wrote: > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 7:37 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Goodwill does the same thing now too. If it even remotely looks like a >> computer, or computer-related device, and it won't run Windows 7, Goodwill >> scraps it. > > Not all goodwills do. Here in Orange county they have by default become > the only true computer parts store in the area. > > They still seem to only have an XP license, and no signs of windows 7. > Everything gets a load of XP though. > > the orange county site sells a lot of equipment online with their own sale > site. Much of the scrap from their own server operations as well as I > suspect a lot of server donations go into their own site. > > http://www.shopgoodwill.com/listings/listbycat.asp?catid=7 I suppose there might be hope yet for Goodwill then. At least it is a regional thing vs a global policy. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 12:20:32 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 13:20:32 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B907F14F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <0C00BE6F-4FCF-403C-940A-07465ED3FC56@gmail.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B907F14F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Aug 3, 2012, at 12:59 PM, Ian King wrote: >> On Aug 3, 2012, at 4:12 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> >>> Good grief, these are not large or heavy devices. You know the TS05 is a >> little tabletop drive, right? Not much bigger than a big PeeCee. >> >> I suppose that's a matter of perspective. Mine is 6 rack spaces and 80 >> pounds; it's heavy enough that I'm careful lifting it off the floor so as not to >> damage my back. It can certainly be expensive to ship. >> > > I guess it depends on the size of your table. :-) Yes, the TS05 (I have a couple of F880s) are smaller than a TU81, but still somewhat larger than a full-size PC tower in all but perhaps depth, and heavy enough to make the shippers put you on their Christmas card list. Be exceedingly careful with the front door: both of mine have cracked doors, which doesn't affect the functionality of the unit but makes it a pain to mount/dismount tapes. On one of them, the mounting holes are stripped, too, and I have to use the maintenance function to fool it into believing the door is really closed. Mine didn't even have a front door when I got it. There's an easier solution than using the maintenance mode: disconnect the door lock solenoid. If it doesn't fire, it doesn't actuate the "door open" switch, and it's not like it's locking anything if the door isn't there. It's a simple quick-disconnect terminal. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 13:34:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:34:29 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <1343989870.65419.YahooMailNeo@web87706.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1343989870.65419.YahooMailNeo@web87706.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <501C19B5.4070802@neurotica.com> My comment wasn't directed at you; someone giving something away (or even selling it) is certainly free to set their own conditions. I was just laughing (hysterically) at the whining of "it's so biiiiiiiiiiig!" for a small tabletop tape drive. It's a one-man lift...It's not like it's a friggin' TU78! -Dave On 08/03/2012 06:31 AM, Julian Smith wrote: > Dave > > It's not the practicality of shipping it that's the issue, it's just my preference was for someone to turn up and take it away as it's the simplest option for me. > > Selfish, I know. But it worked out for everybody involved... > > > Julian > > > On 03/08/2012 09:12, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Good grief, these are not large or heavy devices. You know the TS05 is a little tabletop drive, right? Not much bigger than a big PeeCee. >> >> -Dave > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 13:55:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:55:11 -0400 Subject: rsx11m plus V2.1 / 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501C1E8F.6020902@neurotica.com> On 08/03/2012 04:46 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 2 Aug 2012, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> Ahh, yes, however, that tape image only contains the stand alone BRU, >> not the distribution tape itself, like f.e. the 4.1 zipfile does. > > Oh, you're right. I should have had a look at the file size. I don't > think that I have RSX11M-Plus floating around on an RK05 or RL0[12] > disk, either. I have at least one RSX11M-Plus distribution on 9-track tape. I'll see if I can find them this weekend. If they're in good shape, I should be able to make tape images for you soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 3 14:56:10 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2012, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 2:18 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Does anyone here know of anyone who makes sets of napier's bones? > > just google napier's bones price > > and more than one supplier I seem to find only one one. Just looking at the photograph, I can see the set is of terrible quality. I'm now trying to source some appropriate-sized pieces of camel bone. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 13:47:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:47:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: bad teachers In-Reply-To: <501AE8D0.8070902@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 2, 12 10:53:36 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 1 Aug 2012 19:46:28 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) wrote: > > Ah... That's the differnce. I went to what is called a 'public > > school', which _is_ an expensive private school Put it this way, I am > > entitled to put 'OP' after my name. Said school seemed not to bother > > too much with science/maths and I guess that's reflected i nteh teachers. > Yes I know a 'public school' is not public, but private :-) > > Old Persean? Old Pauline? Old Pangbournian? Given that I mentioned it was an expensive publis school, it's Old Pauline. I suspect I am one of the few Old Paulines who actually enjoys getting my hands covered in oil, actually. Most seem to end up in governement-stype jobs :-( > Order of Preachers? Ordinary Prat? ;-) > I could fancy putting 'OP' after my name, with the last interpretation :-) A mad freidn of my father's used to put 'DSLAMN' after his name. It stood for 'Damn Stupid Letters After My Name' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 3 15:03:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:03:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Aug 3, 12 01:20:32 pm Message-ID: > Mine didn't even have a front door when I got it. There's an easier > solution than using the maintenance mode: disconnect the door lock > solenoid. If it doesn't fire, it doesn't actuate the "door open" > switch, and it's not like it's locking anything if the door isn't > there. It's a simple quick-disconnect terminal. We _are_ talking abotu the same drive, right? The rebadged Cipher F880, the one you put a reel of tape in the slot and it automaically treads up? My experiece of bot hthe TS05 and the F880 is that they d not eeliably load if the door is missing. The airflow is not right and it doesn't always get the leader off the spool. -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Aug 3 15:20:55 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 08:20:55 +1200 Subject: Good article in Time on the TRS-80 Model 1 Message-ID: Time Magazine sets the record straight on the microcomputer history forgot, the TRS-80 Model 1 . I'm pleased to see my Dick Smith System 80 site linked to the article. One mistake though. You needed at least 32k for disk operations on a TRS-80 Model 1, not 16k (-: Tez From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 15:24:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:24:09 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08997B1E-4DEE-4B6F-A510-86FB47BA8321@gmail.com> On Aug 3, 2012, at 4:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Mine didn't even have a front door when I got it. There's an easier >> solution than using the maintenance mode: disconnect the door lock >> solenoid. If it doesn't fire, it doesn't actuate the "door open" >> switch, and it's not like it's locking anything if the door isn't >> there. It's a simple quick-disconnect terminal. > > We _are_ talking abotu the same drive, right? The rebadged Cipher F880, > the one you put a reel of tape in the slot and it automaically treads up? > My experiece of bot hthe TS05 and the F880 is that they d not eeliably > load if the door is missing. The airflow is not right and it doesn't > always get the leader off the spool. I've only encountered that maybe 5% of the time; usually it loads OK. Right now, my problem is that power regulation has gotten bad enough that the thing periodically resets itself after it warms up, and I haven't had a chance to fix it. It doesn't load at all if you try to load it with the top up, of course, but I've had very little problem with the airflow with the missing front door. I'm sure it's not great dust-wise, but it's damn near impossible to find a replacement these days (I managed to find replacement rack rails, since mine only came with the inner part for some reason). - Dave From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 3 15:30:52 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 22:30:52 +0200 Subject: rsx11m plus V2.1 / 3.0 In-Reply-To: <501C1E8F.6020902@neurotica.com> References: <501C1E8F.6020902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <66a4d4ecf627e871582e5fde5a1f4c33.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On 08/03/2012 04:46 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2012, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> Ahh, yes, however, that tape image only contains the stand alone BRU, >>> not the distribution tape itself, like f.e. the 4.1 zipfile does. >> >> Oh, you're right. I should have had a look at the file size. I don't >> think that I have RSX11M-Plus floating around on an RK05 or RL0[12] >> disk, either. > > I have at least one RSX11M-Plus distribution on 9-track tape. I'll > see if I can find them this weekend. If they're in good shape, I should > be able to make tape images for you soon. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > Ohh, that would be very nice indeed! I look forward to hear about the progress. Thank you, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Aug 3 15:41:24 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 08:41:24 +1200 Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to let everyone know that this monitor is now repaired. Just in time for the 35th Anniversary of the TRS-80 Model 1. (-: Thanks to those who responded. (-: Here's a write up: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2012-07-28-trs80-model1-monitor-repair.htm Tez On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi Tony, > > > > It is the original version with the knobs at the bottom. > > Right. SOmewhere I have the Radio Shack service manaul for that. Of > ocurse it's the 115V model, but the modifications infolved adding the > step-down transformer between the power switch and the input to the rest > of the unit and not much else. > > > > > >Now, that TV chassis was, as I mentioend, 115V only. To use it in 230V > > >countries, there was a mains tranformer fitted inside the monitor. THis > > >is an _isolating_ transofrmer, so the thign is no logner live-chassis. > > > > Ah ha, I saw the step down there but I didn't realise it was also an > > isolating transformer. That has answered a question I had about a "hot > > chassis". > > Yes., The US version is hot chassis (and nasty to work on as a result), > the European (and I guess Australian/New Zealand) model is not. > > > > > >With the result that hte video input no longer neeeds an optoisolator. > > >The PCB in palce of the IFs stirp, etc, is just a simple transisotr > video > > >ampliifier. > > > > Ok. Thanks. I don't know what an optoisolator and IF strip means. As I > > Ah. I'll explain those termins in aomnet, I think this tells me that you > don't need the official service manual yet. > > I don't think you're stupid, but I do thing you need to learn some more > electronics before you can make sense of such manuals. Service manuals > are written for people who understand how whatever sort of device works > and just need the information on how _this particular one_ works. Te > excat details of it, the schematic, parts lists, etc. Service manuals > anre not, normally, tutorials in electronics. > > An alanlogy that might help. If I was servicing a car, I would try to get > the factory workshop manau land sue that as my reference. But if we > consider chekcing the spark plugs, that sort of manual will tell you > where they are, it'll explain any odd thignsi n removign and fitting them > (like you have to remove first), it'll give the correct gap and the > tighening torque. What it won't do is eplain how to measure nad set the > gap, how to use a torque wrench, or anything like that. > > Now, as for 'IF strip' and 'Optoisolaotr'. Let's cover those in that order. > > A TV set is basically a special type of radio receiver. At a high level, > the incoming signa lfro mteh aerial is ahdnled much as in a radio set, > and turned into a composite video signal and an audio signal. The audio > signal is amplified and det to the speaker, the composite video signal is > processed by the second main part of the TV which is essentially a video > monitor. > > Now, a radio set basically consists of a tunable filter to pick out the > signal that you want from all the radio signals out there, amplifiers ot > make it large enoguh to be useful and a demodulator to extrace the wanted > ifnroamtion from that signal. > > The problem is the filtering, really, You have to be able to adjust it to > pick up different datations, but you then need several filters that can > be tuned together, one for each stage of the amplification. Making all > those filters come ot the same frequency all alopng the tuning scale is a > major problem. > > The cure is soemthing called a 'Supersonic Heterodyne', normally > shortened ot 'Superhet' receiver. In this, the incloming signal is mixed > with a signal from an oscillaotr (known as the 'local oscillator') and > the beat frequecny which has a frequesnce of the difference between the > incoming siangal and hte lcoal oscillator is filtered out, amplified, and > used. Now the trick is tha the oscillator frequency is varied when you > tune the set. so the differnece frequency is always the same. Thus the > fitlers for tht are fixed, they are set at manufacture. Yo can have ans > many staegs as you (sensibly) like. > > The diffenrce frequency is known as the 'Intermediate Frequency' or 'IF' > ebcausew it is between the incoming signal and the freuqency of the > output of the demodulator (the information you actually want to extract). > The amplifiers for this are, not supriisngly called 'IF amplifiers', the > whole circuit is commonly known as the 'IF strip'. > > In the particular TV that was modified to make this monitor, the 'tuner' > -- the aerial input circuit, the lcoal oscilaltor and the mixer circuit > -- was a separate module fitted ot the case behidn that large blanking > plate. It fet the IF signal to the IF amplifiers, which were assembled > on a plug-in PCB that fitted into the main chassis. THis PCB also > contaiend the demodulator and much of te audio circuitry. THe rest of the > chasis was essentialyl a monitor (this layout might be why this > particular TV was chosen for the convfersion). > > The conversion to make this TV into a motnro therefore cosnsited of : > > Remvoign (or never fitting) the tuner module > > Removing (or never fitting) the plug-in PCB with IF amplifiers,m > demodulator, etc on it. This is the 'IF strip' I refered to > > Doing the same with those few remaining audio components on the chassis. > This inmcluded the volume cotnrol which would have come throug hthe hole > labelled 'V' on the front of the cabinet. It was a bit of good fortuen > that 'V' also could eb 'video' :-) > > Finding soem device to feed composite video from the TRS-80 into the > remainign 'monitor seciton' of the TV. > > THe last leads me on to the tem 'opto isolator'. The TV chassis, at least > in the US model was directly connected to the mains. Therefore nothign > driectly conencted to it could be earthed (groudned). You certianly > wouldn;t want a computer where the logic was effecively conencted ot the > mains in this way, you couldn't safely connect up a normal priner, for > example. > > So waht is needed is some kind of isolation so that the monitor section > can remain connected to the power line but also the computer can be > earthed. The way this was done was somethign called an opto-isolator. > Conceptally it's very simple/ It's an LED and a phototranssitor so mtht > the LED shines on the phototranssitor. It looks like a 6 pin IC. THe more > current you pass throug the LED, the more light (actuallly likely to be > IR) hits the phototransistor, so that conducts harder too. It's not very > linear in tis simplest form, but in this case it doesn't ened to be. The > computer can drive the LED side, the phototransistor can be connected to > the (hot chassi) monitor section, and the computer's video signal will > end up gettign to the monitor. But as the only thing linking them is that > tiny beam of light in optosiolator, there is no driect electrical > connection. You can eart hthe comptuer with no probkems. > > AS I said, that's for the 110V model whcih is hot chassis. The 220V > modeul has the isolatiing transofmrer on the mains input. It's no longer > hot chassis, there is no ened for isolation on the video input. So in > this model there is no optoisolator. Just a simple transistor amplfiier > circuit. > > > > said, I need to read up about the mode of operations of these things. > This > > would explain why the 110V schematic doesn't show exactly what is going > on > > in my monitor...even the AC circuit seems a little different. I'll take > > From what I rememember from workign on my Model 1 monitor, the scheamtic > of the main part of the chasiss is pretty muc hthe same. The differences > are that video inpotu bvoard (which is very differne, on the other hand > the 230V oen is some simple you cna trace out a schematic in about 5 > minutes) and the isertion of that mains isolating transfoemr. > > > some pictures to illustrate. At the moment I have verified that the step > > down transformer is working ok so 110V is indeed getting to the board. > > It's then that the circuit diagram seems to diverge from what I've got in > > some ways. > > I thought that the stuff fed fro mthe 110V inptu was the same in both > versions. The rectifier, regualtor, etc. > > -tony > From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Aug 3 15:52:19 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 20:52:19 +0000 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: References: from "David Riley" at Aug 3, 12 01:20:32 pm Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B907F2CD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 1:03 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK > > > Mine didn't even have a front door when I got it. There's an easier > > solution than using the maintenance mode: disconnect the door lock > > solenoid. If it doesn't fire, it doesn't actuate the "door open" > > switch, and it's not like it's locking anything if the door isn't > > there. It's a simple quick-disconnect terminal. > > We _are_ talking abotu the same drive, right? The rebadged Cipher F880, the > one you put a reel of tape in the slot and it automaically treads up? > My experiece of bot hthe TS05 and the F880 is that they d not eeliably load if > the door is missing. The airflow is not right and it doesn't always get the > leader off the spool. > Are you suggesting that there is some juxtaposition of Sun, Moon and stars under which they load *reliably*? :-) The guy from whom I got my first one used to open the top and manually load it as a standard practice. -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 3 16:19:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:19:11 -0700 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B907F2CD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: , , <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B907F2CD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <501BDDDF.5467.130940B@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2012 at 20:52, Ian King wrote: > Are you suggesting that there is some juxtaposition of Sun, Moon and > stars under which they load *reliably*? :-) > > The guy from whom I got my first one used to open the top and manually > load it as a standard practice. -- Ian My experience also, particularly when trying to read a tape sent by someone with a manal-loading reel-to-reel drive. OT-but-related: In audio tape, didn't Bell and Howell make an auto- loading tape deck with similarly dismal operation? --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 3 16:41:39 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 22:41:39 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <501C19B5.4070802@neurotica.com> References: <1343989870.65419.YahooMailNeo@web87706.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <501C19B5.4070802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 3 August 2012 19:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > > My comment wasn't directed at you; someone giving something away (or > even selling it) is certainly free to set their own conditions. I was > just laughing (hysterically) at the whining of "it's so biiiiiiiiiiig!" > for a small tabletop tape drive. It's a one-man lift...It's not like > it's a friggin' TU78! > > > Not sure if you are indicating that I am one of the whiners, but I would just like to point out that different people have different amounts of space to dedicate to this hobby, and what may be tiny in your books, may not be so for others. If you have the space then that is fine, but please don't laugh hysterically at those not as fortunate as yourself. Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 16:49:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 17:49:22 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: References: <1343989870.65419.YahooMailNeo@web87706.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <501C19B5.4070802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <501C4762.8010707@neurotica.com> On 08/03/2012 05:41 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > On 3 August 2012 19:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> My comment wasn't directed at you; someone giving something away (or >> even selling it) is certainly free to set their own conditions. I was >> just laughing (hysterically) at the whining of "it's so biiiiiiiiiiig!" >> for a small tabletop tape drive. It's a one-man lift...It's not like >> it's a friggin' TU78! >> >> >> > > Not sure if you are indicating that I am one of the whiners, but I would > just like to point out that different people have different amounts of > space to dedicate to this hobby, and what may be tiny in your books, may > not be so for others. If you have the space then that is fine, but please > don't laugh hysterically at those not as fortunate as yourself. That was not my intention. I'm just trying to put things into perspective here. It is not a large device. It's a tabletop box. I have trouble envisioning a situation in which someone can't find space for that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 17:01:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 18:01:03 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <501C4762.8010707@neurotica.com> References: <1343989870.65419.YahooMailNeo@web87706.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <501C19B5.4070802@neurotica.com> <501C4762.8010707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <501C4A1F.4020207@neurotica.com> On 08/03/2012 05:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> My comment wasn't directed at you; someone giving something away (or >>> even selling it) is certainly free to set their own conditions. I was >>> just laughing (hysterically) at the whining of "it's so biiiiiiiiiiig!" >>> for a small tabletop tape drive. It's a one-man lift...It's not like >>> it's a friggin' TU78! >> >> Not sure if you are indicating that I am one of the whiners, but I would >> just like to point out that different people have different amounts of >> space to dedicate to this hobby, and what may be tiny in your books, may >> not be so for others. If you have the space then that is fine, but please >> don't laugh hysterically at those not as fortunate as yourself. > > That was not my intention. I'm just trying to put things into > perspective here. It is not a large device. It's a tabletop box. I > have trouble envisioning a situation in which someone can't find space > for that. I should also say...I'm sorry if you took offense to my statement. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Aug 3 17:26:32 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 22:26:32 +0000 Subject: bad teachers In-Reply-To: <501B73F6.7000100@neurotica.com> References: <501AE8D0.8070902@otter.se> <501B73F6.7000100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B907F305@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 11:47 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: bad teachers > > On 08/02/2012 04:53 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > > Mine was run by the Quakers. They were actually very nice people and > > didn't force their religion on you, except to require attendance at > > Sunday Meetings if you had no other church to go to. Meetings were > > usually only an hour's complete silence, anyway, so it wasn't > > oppressive in any way. They did have good, and very nice, teachers. > > Not to say that it didn't cost a lot of money to go there, but not like a public > school. > > "Meeting" singular, not plural. I have a good bit of experience with these > chaps. Generally good folk, those Quakers, as opposed to some religious > types. Absolutely zero "beating people over the head with YOUR religion" in > their circles. > After Seattle Public Schools catastrophically failed my child, I started sending her to a Catholic school. My mother used to tell horror stories about nuns and rulers and knuckles, but the Catholic system apparently learned the value of honey over vinegar: my daughter's school is about one-third non-Catholic and all students' beliefs are respected. The teachers are all laypersons. Yes, there are occasionally mandatory attendances for Mass and a class in religion, but when I objected to one event in particular because of its subject matter there was no fuss over just having her leave early that day. And, it's been an interesting catalyst for some interesting father-daughter conversations about spirituality. The education has been top notch. In her last year of public "school" my daughter begged to be home-schooled, she was so bored. Now she gripes about homework and such, but it's always accompanied by, "Guess what I learned today!" It's worth every dime (and there are more than a few of them spent!). -- Ian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 17:30:26 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 23:30:26 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <501C4762.8010707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 03 August 2012 22:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK > > > On 08/03/2012 05:41 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > > On 3 August 2012 19:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > >> > >> My comment wasn't directed at you; someone giving something away > >> (or even selling it) is certainly free to set their own > conditions. > >> I was just laughing (hysterically) at the whining of "it's so > >> biiiiiiiiiiig!" for a small tabletop tape drive. It's a one-man > >> lift...It's not like it's a friggin' TU78! > >> > >> > >> > > > > Not sure if you are indicating that I am one of the whiners, but I > > would just like to point out that different people have different > > amounts of space to dedicate to this hobby, and what may be tiny in > > your books, may not be so for others. If you have the space > then that > > is fine, but please don't laugh hysterically at those not > as fortunate > > as yourself. > > That was not my intention. I'm just trying to put things > into perspective here. It is not a large device. It's a > tabletop box. I have trouble envisioning a situation in > which someone can't find space for that. > I'll post some pics! > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 21:54:17 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook Message-ID: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> anyone familiar w/the 2nd edition? If so describe the cover for me. If you have a copy you don't need, let me know. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 22:43:46 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 20:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: oh and I am looking for an off topic SGI Fuel, on the cheap side Message-ID: <1344051826.99761.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> saw one on Queen's CL for 50$, no lie. I could do better though. I got this set of IRIX cds that are burning a hole in my pocket (?). Always wanted that big burly box. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 3 22:50:44 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 20:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: emulating /dev/nrmt Message-ID: <201208040350.q743oi4p7209120@floodgap.com> Since I'm getting more into early 90s workstations (the workstations of my undergraduate years), I'm finding a need to emulate a network tape device for installs and restores. It seems like there should be such a tool already that can mimic /dev/nrmt (TMSCP?). Is there? Some cursory Googling didn't turn up anything obvious, unless I'm looking in the wrong place. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Friends don't let friends use Windows. ------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 22:59:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 23:59:22 -0400 Subject: emulating /dev/nrmt In-Reply-To: <201208040350.q743oi4p7209120@floodgap.com> References: <201208040350.q743oi4p7209120@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <501C9E1A.5030507@neurotica.com> On 08/03/2012 11:50 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Since I'm getting more into early 90s workstations (the workstations of > my undergraduate years), I'm finding a need to emulate a network tape device > for installs and restores. It seems like there should be such a tool already > that can mimic /dev/nrmt (TMSCP?). Is there? Some cursory Googling didn't > turn up anything obvious, unless I'm looking in the wrong place. You could just get the source to rmt. It's ridiculously simple. However, /dev/nrmt has nothing at all to do with networking. It's the raw (byte-oriented) tape device, and the 'n' means it won't rewind the tape when the file descriptor is closed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 3 23:04:33 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: emulating /dev/nrmt In-Reply-To: <501C9E1A.5030507@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 3, 12 11:59:22 pm" Message-ID: <201208040404.q7444XuT14352502@floodgap.com> > > Since I'm getting more into early 90s workstations (the workstations of > > my undergraduate years), I'm finding a need to emulate a network tape device > > for installs and restores. It seems like there should be such a tool already > > that can mimic /dev/nrmt (TMSCP?). Is there? Some cursory Googling didn't > > turn up anything obvious, unless I'm looking in the wrong place. > > You could just get the source to rmt. It's ridiculously simple. I have the tar source with an rmt lib in it. I guess I could implement a new /etc/rmt and just make it read from .tar files. > However, /dev/nrmt has nothing at all to do with networking. It's the > raw (byte-oriented) tape device, and the 'n' means it won't rewind the > tape when the file descriptor is closed. Yes. What I meant was, when the Solbourne tries to install over the network, it's looking for /dev/nrmt on that system. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Always proofreed you writing. ---------------------------------------------- From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 23:06:33 2012 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:06:33 -0700 Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: author would help. try biblio.com, alibris.com and abebooks.com all of them will let you restrict the country you search. (not sure you are US or whatever) I found a possible for $7.95 which was a theory of tv repair, and the title you passed by Herrick. but I've never heard the title. biblio and alibris tend to have the same listings, but biblio will have a somewhat better listing of really obscure stuff. the abebooks site didn't have much of what I searched for recently, not sure why. there's been a huge amount of politicing between the three sites, and that's why there are three sites. Not sure about cross listing into amazon. Amazon didn't have any of the rare books i searched for or they were buried in crap listings. I was (and am) searching for Elliott Organick texts, and still would like to find the Burroughs B1700 text. I have an Intel 432 to swap if anyone is interested. I don't care if they are in book collector condition, library versions are fine. thanks jim On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > anyone familiar w/the 2nd edition? If so describe the cover for me. If you > have a copy you don't need, let me know. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 3 23:12:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 00:12:52 -0400 Subject: emulating /dev/nrmt In-Reply-To: <201208040404.q7444XuT14352502@floodgap.com> References: <201208040404.q7444XuT14352502@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <501CA144.6090403@neurotica.com> On 08/04/2012 12:04 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Since I'm getting more into early 90s workstations (the workstations of >>> my undergraduate years), I'm finding a need to emulate a network tape device >>> for installs and restores. It seems like there should be such a tool already >>> that can mimic /dev/nrmt (TMSCP?). Is there? Some cursory Googling didn't >>> turn up anything obvious, unless I'm looking in the wrong place. >> >> You could just get the source to rmt. It's ridiculously simple. > > I have the tar source with an rmt lib in it. I guess I could implement a > new /etc/rmt and just make it read from .tar files. > >> However, /dev/nrmt has nothing at all to do with networking. It's the >> raw (byte-oriented) tape device, and the 'n' means it won't rewind the >> tape when the file descriptor is closed. > > Yes. What I meant was, when the Solbourne tries to install over the network, > it's looking for /dev/nrmt on that system. Ok. Well, I haven't used /etc/rmt in probably twenty years, but I seem to recall that you can point it at different devices. If you can, try pointing it directly at a tar file. The only problem will be the -1 return values from any ioctl() calls made by rmt. That should be easy enough to hack. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 23:35:19 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Part request (last minute, no biggie) happen to have a vic-20 video cable? In-Reply-To: <002901cd6686$76839c80$638ad580$@com> Message-ID: <1344054919.95277.YahooMailClassic@web161505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> For the life of me I couldn't find any video cable for the vic-20 before leaving. I only brought a few games for it but figured it'd be interesting if it was running aside the sx-64 this year. Either way, not sure if you have time or get this but if you did and had a video cable I could borrow it'd be much appreciated! No biggie if not, I'll still have the portable and two PCs hopefully up and running other stuff too. Thanks! See ya in the morning :-) - John From barythrin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 23:37:20 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disregard VCF Part request (last minute, no biggie) happen to have a vic-20 video cable? In-Reply-To: <1344054919.95277.YahooMailClassic@web161505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1344055040.20366.YahooMailClassic@web161502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> lol well that's what happens when ya hit reply without checking the sender. Sorry to blast the entire list with my blunder. - John From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 23:39:26 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: jim stephens author would help. try biblio.com, alibris.com and abebooks.com C: Abebooks has the 2nd edition. I'm not a total retard. I remember seeing it on a library shelf a very long time ago and always wanted a copy of _that_. I didn't want to give away that that edition had a test pattern on the cover. I was hoping to hear from someone who had it. I should try another forum I guess. Not sure what response I'd get if I asked Abe to describe the cover for me. It sounds like he's old enough to know what a test pattern is, if that's the case. There's another ooooold book that was in the college library that had a pullout schematic of a tv receiver. I'm too tired and lazy to search (or find out if it's still in the library). Dated from the 50s unless I'm mistaken. It was a book on radio theory, yet dipped into television. Very cool. I remember driving upstate NY and stopping in thrift stores and whatnot, late 80s early 90s. Those old texts could be had for a song. Not so sure these days. But now and again I still find old electronic books or machinist manuals and such. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 01:25:45 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 01:25:45 -0500 Subject: disregard VCF Part request (last minute, no biggie) happen to have a vic-20 video cable? In-Reply-To: <1344055040.20366.YahooMailClassic@web161502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1344054919.95277.YahooMailClassic@web161505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1344055040.20366.YahooMailClassic@web161502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: lol On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > lol well that's what happens when ya hit reply without checking the > sender. Sorry to blast the entire list with my blunder. > > - John > From jws at jwsss.com Sat Aug 4 01:31:16 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 23:31:16 -0700 Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <501CC1B4.8070504@jwsss.com> On 8/3/2012 9:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > ________________________________ > From: jim stephens > > > author would help. > > try biblio.com, alibris.com and abebooks.com > > C: Abebooks has the 2nd edition. I'm not a total retard. I remember seeing it on a library shelf a very long time ago and always wanted a copy of _that_. I don't recall saying anything but asking for the author, and guessing. Still no answer to my question, just my guess. It was a first addition. > I didn't want to give away that that edition had a test pattern on the cover. I was hoping to hear from someone who had it. I should try another forum I guess. > > Not sure what response I'd get if I asked Abe to describe the cover for me. It sounds like he's old enough to know what a test pattern is, if that's the case. On alibris, it has an advanced search option to restrict to listings with only covers. If you get nothing with that on, so be it. The answer above (from my guess) had the cover artwork, you could read all you wished. > There's another ooooold book that was in the college library that had a pullout schematic of a tv receiver. I'm too tired and lazy to search (or find out if it's still in the library). Dated from the 50s unless I'm mistaken. It was a book on radio theory, yet dipped into television. Very cool. > > I remember driving upstate NY and stopping in thrift stores and whatnot, late 80s early 90s. Those old texts could be had for a song. Not so sure these days. But now and again I still find old electronic books or machinist manuals and such. > > I'll remember this when I try to assist any of your questions in the future. I think the plonk applied earlier should have been applied in this case. Sorry to inconvenience you. Be nice to the retards you run into. Some of them are friends of mine with Autism and Downs syndrome. jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 4 02:12:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 03:12:40 -0400 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501CCB68.2050900@neurotica.com> On 08/03/2012 06:30 PM, Dave wrote: >> That was not my intention. I'm just trying to put things >> into perspective here. It is not a large device. It's a >> tabletop box. I have trouble envisioning a situation in >> which someone can't find space for that. > > I'll post some pics! Please do! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Aug 4 04:57:28 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 10:57:28 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <501CCB68.2050900@neurotica.com> References: <501CCB68.2050900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4 August 2012 08:12, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/03/2012 06:30 PM, Dave wrote: >> I'll post some pics! > > Please do! > FWIW, I'm in Manchester too, but haven't chipped in - I'm not really a collector of the big stuff, but as for room to store such a device- this is "my" space (as of a month ago; it's on it's way to being tidier now..) http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AIzNZimNaSI/T_AoX5eg4VI/AAAAAAAAAHc/RAjF2-pw1N4/s400/IMG_2969.JPG One small modem rack dominates it; I can't imagine fitting "even" a TS05 in there ... (Don't get me wrong - I used to play on 11/780 and 11/750s in my youth, would love to have one, just no way I'd get one into the attic!) Rob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 06:49:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 08:49:45 -0300 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK References: <501CCB68.2050900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14727F59851E4267AA9E40894172FD51@tababook> > http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AIzNZimNaSI/T_AoX5eg4VI/AAAAAAAAAHc/RAjF2-pw1N4/s400/IMG_2969.JPG Whazzdat in the monitor at right? Cables out of the screen? A 3D-glass-free monitor? ;oD From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 4 07:54:48 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 07:54:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: List mod? Message-ID: I've sent two emails to the list since last week that appear to have been held in some sort of mod queue, and I'm not sure what to do. I tried sending Jay West an email and got no reply. Does anyone else know who might have mod access? The first time it happened I resent the email and it still didn't make it through. The second time (with a different email) I didn't bother to try to resend. The only thing the two emails have in common is that they both included links, but none of the links are related in any way, not even the domain names in the links. From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Aug 4 08:55:14 2012 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 09:55:14 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a QBUS AAV11 they will part with? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501D29C2.8040707@heeltoe.com> Hi, I found an AAV11 on ebay for $100. Seems like a lot, but maybe that's a reasonable price. I was curious if anyone here has a QBUS AAV11 they don't need... (either -A or -C, either will work) I want to convince my 14yo that he can write a video game in fortran and it seemed like RT-11 with a D/A connected to a scope (x,y + z intensity) might be a good place to start. At least, that's how I got started :-) (a year after I got my BS I ran into a professor I know and he told me he had to confiscate some pdp-11 floppy disks because all of the geology grad students were spending all their time playing a spacewar clone I wrote for a lab pdp-11. I had to laugh - I had forgotten all about that program) -brad From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 4 10:24:57 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 08:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C:\DERP> Abebooks has the 2nd edition. I'm not a total retard. I remember I've seen no evidence to support that statement. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Aug 4 10:18:56 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 17:18:56 +0200 Subject: Microsoft licensing In-Reply-To: <8CF3D540DB640F3-11DC-10B46@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF3D540DB640F3-11DC-10B46@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20120804151856.GA27762@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 12:52:50PM -0400, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > Richard writes: > > > > > > Wrong. > > As long as you have the certificate of authenticity for copies of MS-DOS, you > can continue to ship product using that operating system. > > Medical device manufacturers are doing this because if they change the > operating system, they have to requalify their devices which is a very > expensive process. So they continue to buy NOS copies of MS-DOS, as long as > they have the certificate of authenticity, and use those to ship their > products. > > They will continue to do this as long as the cost of obtaining NOS MS-DOS > product is less than the recertification process. Given the number of NOS > copies still in the marketplace, they won't need to upgrade the OS for some > time. There is a local guy who mostly deals in C=64 equipment that has been > making quite a nice side business of finding NOS copies of MS-DOS for some > time now. > > You would think so, wouldn't you, but as I said before Microsoft is being > very creative. The software that you're talking about is unused, possibly > retail or possibly OEM, but in any case the license has not been attached so > it can be used on any device (for OEM, provided that the equipment is new). > You would think that an OEM license, since it is attached permanently to the > hardware, would transfer with the hardware, right? You would think that > presenting the certificate of authenticity or other evidence that the > hardware was licensed would be enough to show a license, right? Not so fast. Makes me so glad I only touch Windows when I get paid to do so and someone else has to worry about getting the licensing right. Especially when I get to hear their stories about the sometimes really strange MS licensing arrangements when it comes to either large machines or virtualization. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 4 11:40:25 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 17:40:25 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <14727F59851E4267AA9E40894172FD51@tababook> Message-ID: On 04/08/2012 12:49, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AIzNZimNaSI/T_AoX5eg4VI/AAAAAAAAAHc/RAjF2-pw1N4/s40 >> 0/IMG_2969.JPG > > Whazzdat in the monitor at right? Cables out of the screen? A > 3D-glass-free monitor? ;oD It's an infra-red 'touch screen' for the Microvitec monitor that attached to a BBC Micro. I just gave one away. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Aug 4 12:31:29 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 05:31:29 +1200 Subject: List mod? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The same thing has happened to me. I sent two letters which had links about 20 hours ago. Nothing? On 5/08/2012 12:54 AM, "Tothwolf" wrote: > I've sent two emails to the list since last week that appear to have been > held in some sort of mod queue, and I'm not sure what to do. I tried > sending Jay West an email and got no reply. Does anyone else know who might > have mod access? > > The first time it happened I resent the email and it still didn't make it > through. The second time (with a different email) I didn't bother to try to > resend. The only thing the two emails have in common is that they both > included links, but none of the links are related in any way, not even the > domain names in the links. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 4 12:54:32 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 10:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120804105222.Y72816@shell.lmi.net> > > author would help. > > try biblio.com, alibris.com and abebooks.com > C:\Derp: Abebooks has the 2nd edition. I'm not a total retard. Not doubting your word, but how would we know? And much easier to believe if you provided the full information. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 12:27:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:27:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Aug 3, 12 12:56:10 pm Message-ID: > I seem to find only one one. Just looking at the photograph, I can see > the set is of terrible quality. I'm now trying to source some > appropriate-sized pieces of camel bone. 'First catch your camel' :-) There is of course no techncial reason why they can't be made for just abotu any solid substance. Engraving a set on a suitable pile of metal bars would be rather nice. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 12:30:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:30:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Good article in Time on the TRS-80 Model 1 In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Aug 4, 12 08:20:55 am Message-ID: > > Time Magazine sets the record straight on the microcomputer history forgot, > the TRS-80 Model 1 . > > I'm pleased to see my Dick Smith System 80 site linked to the article. > > One mistake though. You needed at least 32k for disk operations on a > TRS-80 Model 1, not 16k (-: Did you? You nee3ded an expansio nitnerface to prvide the disk controller and that unit had sockets for up to 32K more RAM (so a 32K or 48K machine total), but I thought TRS-DOS would boot in 16K. OF course user memeory was then so limited that almost nothign would run. When I upgrded to disks I filled all the sockets in the EI (4116s were relatively cheap by then) so I never tried it with anythiog other than 48K. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 12:37:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:37:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Aug 4, 12 08:41:24 am Message-ID: > > Just to let everyone know that this monitor is now repaired. Just in time > for the 35th Anniversary of the TRS-80 Model 1. (-: > > Thanks to those who responded. (-: Here's a write up: > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2012-07-28-trs80-model1-monitor-repair.htm You were somewhat lucky. Sometimes the horizotnal output transsitor just fials (as yours did), but sometimes it's killed by some other fault (shorted turned in the flyback transoformer being the worst, but shorted/leaky diodes and capacitors in that circuit can do it too). I haev learnt by bitter experience to always order a few spare transistors when fixing this kind of fault in case the new one fails instantly at switch-on. Worse still is when there's a fault component i nthe drive circuit, often a capacitor in the base netowrk of the horizotnal output tranistor itself. If this causes the transistor to swtich more slowly, then said transistor will dissipate more power (think about it like this : If the transisotr is staturated, the volage across is it low, so it doesn't dissipate much power. If it's cut off, it's passing next-to-no current, so again the power dissipated is low. But between those states, it can have a significant voltage drop and still be pssing current). Anyway, if there is a fault which causes it to switch mroe slowly, the monito can still appear to work fine, but the transsitor will run hot. And it might well fail after a few hours of continuous operation. NAsty, beacue averyything looks fine until you've got the case on and you've returned it ot the customer... Dno't feel the transistor case to see if it's getting hot. The case is the collector connection and there are high voltage spikes 9kV range) there. Not enough to do you serious damage, but cetainly enough to make you jump. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 12:40:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:40:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <501C4762.8010707@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 3, 12 05:49:22 pm Message-ID: > That was not my intention. I'm just trying to put things into > perspective here. It is not a large device. It's a tabletop box. I > have trouble envisioning a situation in which someone can't find space > for that. It's a large tabeltop box (it's a 19" ackmount thing ,and it's deep from frotn to back). I cna think fo several tables (in the furniture sense) it wouldn't fit on. And you've not been in my workshop. I would have problems finding space for another HP41 at the moment... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 4 12:49:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:49:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF Part request (last minute, no biggie) happen to have a vic-20 video cable? In-Reply-To: <1344054919.95277.YahooMailClassic@web161505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Sam Onella" at Aug 3, 12 09:35:19 pm Message-ID: > > For the life of me I couldn't find any video cable for the vic-20 > before leaving. I only brought a few games for it but figured it'd be > interesting if it was running aside the sx-64 this year. Either way, > not sure if you have time or get this but if you did and had a video > cable I could borrow it'd be much appreciated! No biggie if not, I'll > still have the portable and two PCs hopefully up and running other stuff > too. Hmm... I am not sure I am oging to be near enough to help :-) More seriouslky, I've never attended a VCF, and probably never will, but when I got to similar events, I always carry a reasonable (for me, it's large to some of you) toolkit. Certainly enough to kludge up a video conneciton using soem fandom bit of cable tack-soldered to the pins in the computer and monitor (yes, said toolkit does include a soldering iron). But the main reason for having said toolkit is murphey's law. Things will go wrong if you have no way to fix them, conversely, if you have the tools, test gear and service manual with oyu, things tned nto to misbehave. And it reduces my stress level to know that if there's a simple problem I can sort it out. -tony From eallen at owt.com Sat Aug 4 13:53:02 2012 From: eallen at owt.com (Ernest G. Allen) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 11:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good article in Time on the TRS-80 Model 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Time Magazine sets the record straight on the microcomputer history forgot, > > the TRS-80 Model 1 . > > > > I'm pleased to see my Dick Smith System 80 site linked to the article. > > > > One mistake though. You needed at least 32k for disk operations on a > > TRS-80 Model 1, not 16k (-: > > Did you? You nee3ded an expansio nitnerface to prvide the disk > controller and that unit had sockets for up to 32K more RAM (so a 32K or > 48K machine total), but I thought TRS-DOS would boot in 16K. OF course > user memeory was then so limited that almost nothign would run. > > When I upgrded to disks I filled all the sockets in the EI (4116s were > relatively cheap by then) so I never tried it with anythiog other than 48K. > > -tony > Yes, you could run TRSDOS with only 16K RAM. TRSDOS took about 4.2K, and the Disk BASIC extension took about 5.8K. From a Radio Shack catalog, at "http://www.trs-80.com/trs80-models-model1.htm". ==== start excerpt ==== "Professional" 16K System $2,384.00 Consists of: * 16K Level II Complete System * Expansion Interface * Mini-Disk System * Quick Printer Cable * System Desk Mini-disk for expanded language, fast data handling, and approximately 49,900 bytes of user disk storage space. Quick Printer provides 80-column hard copy and program listings. System Desk holds the entire system with plenty of work space left over. ==== end excerpt ==== --Ernest From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Aug 4 13:57:23 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 19:57:23 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: References: <14727F59851E4267AA9E40894172FD51@tababook> Message-ID: On 4 August 2012 17:40, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 04/08/2012 12:49, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > wrote: > >>> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AIzNZimNaSI/T_AoX5eg4VI/AAAAAAAAAHc/RAjF2-pw1N4/s40 >>> 0/IMG_2969.JPG >> >> Whazzdat in the monitor at right? Cables out of the screen? A >> 3D-glass-free monitor? ;oD > > It's an infra-red 'touch screen' for the Microvitec monitor that attached to > a BBC Micro. I just gave one away. > Adrian is correct. It's a frame that sits in front of a Microvitec CUB monitor. I have the requisite monitor, plus countless BBC Micros. What I don't seem to have is software to use it, although I dare say if I actually get around to looking about the 'net I'll find some... Rob From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Aug 4 14:25:08 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 13:25:08 -0600 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501D7714.2070208@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Engraving a set on a suitable pile of metal > bars would be rather nice. > As it happens, I know someone with a fairly well-equipped machine shop in his garage who has considering making and selling sets of anodized aluminum Napier's Bones. He's tentatively thinking that a set in a wooden presentation box might sell for $150. (A significant part of that cost is the anodizing.) I just mentioned to him that the subject came up on this mailing list, and he's interested in gauging the interest, so anyone that might be interested in purchasing such a thing might drop me a line off-list. Eric From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 15:05:33 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 16:05:33 -0400 Subject: remaining S-100 PCBs on-hand Message-ID: <004601cd727c$81bcfd10$8536f730$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! There are 8 S-100 Serial IO board, 10 S-100 8088 CPU board, and 6 S-100 backplane PCBs remaining in case anyone is looking. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your PCBs right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 4 15:10:42 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 15:10:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: List mod? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > On 5/08/2012 12:54 AM, "Tothwolf" wrote: > >> I've sent two emails to the list since last week that appear to have been >> held in some sort of mod queue, and I'm not sure what to do. I tried >> sending Jay West an email and got no reply. Does anyone else know who might >> have mod access? >> >> The first time it happened I resent the email and it still didn't make it >> through. The second time (with a different email) I didn't bother to try to >> resend. The only thing the two emails have in common is that they both >> included links, but none of the links are related in any way, not even the >> domain names in the links. > > The same thing has happened to me. I sent two letters which had links > about 20 hours ago. Nothing? The first email that I noticed not going through was sent Mon, 30 Jul 2012 04:45:18. I tried resending it Tue, 31 Jul 2012 05:12:57 and it still didn't go through. The second email I sent Fri, 3 Aug 2012 15:19:57 and that one also just disappeared. The first email contained two eBay links (one quoted), a link to AppleFritter and a link to Google+. The second email contained two links to my own webserver hosted via a dyndns hostname. Lawrence mentioned off-list that my emails weren't in the mod queue, so I dunno what happened to them. If some sort of filter nabbed them, the same may have happened to the email I sent Jay, although that email didn't contain any links. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 4 15:31:01 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 16:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: List mod? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201208042031.QAA21408@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> I've sent two emails to the list since last week [...] >> The same thing has happened to me. I sent two letters which had >> links about 20 hours ago. Nothing? > The first email that I noticed not going through was [...] > Lawrence mentioned off-list that my emails weren't in the mod queue, > so I dunno what happened to them. If some sort of filter nabbed > them, the same may have happened to the email I sent Jay, although > that email didn't contain any links. Hm, my experience here may actually be relevant. I had my subscription auto-suspended. This happens routinely (not just with this list), because lists pass various things I reject, such as mail with gross syntax errors. (I have a standing offer to listowners and postmasters to make their mail which would normally be rejected instead silently vanish; Jay hasn't taken me up on it, and I _think_ I've mentioned it to him - if not, now I have. :) So, I have scripts that cooperate to notice the alert mail saying this has happened and auto-unsuspend the subscription. Recently, I had a case where the script-generated unsuspend mail was rejected, supposedly because the token in it was invalid even though it was taken directly from a minutes-old alert email. I sent mail to the owner address in the alert asking what happened, but got no response. I eventually got unsubbed and resubbed again, but if something is losing mail to Jay, this could have hit my mail. It contained links, but they were all quoted from the various automated emails sent to me; I should _hope_ they wouldn't trip any filters. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 4 15:39:43 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 16:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <501D7714.2070208@brouhaha.com> References: <501D7714.2070208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201208042039.QAA21486@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Engraving a set on a suitable pile of metal bars would be rather >> nice. > [an acquaintance is] considering making and selling sets of anodized > aluminum Napier's Bones. He's tentatively thinking that a set in a > wooden presentation box might sell for $150. (A significant part of > that cost is the anodizing.) Hm, has he considered other metals? Saving on the anodizing might make brass, or a mild steel, or some such, cheap enough to be worth doing. I'm just thinking that I probably would not buy a set at $150 but very well might at $50.... For that matter, what about non-metals? A hard wood might make for a nice set too, especially if the engraving is filled with paint and the whole thing lacquered, or some such. Perhaps even plastic, though that seems a bit d?class?, and quite possibly not suitable for garage machine-shop production anyway. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 4 16:21:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 14:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good article in Time on the TRS-80 Model 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120804134524.M77476@shell.lmi.net> > > One mistake though. You needed at least 32k for disk operations on a > > TRS-80 Model 1, not 16k (-: On Sat, 4 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > When I upgrded to disks I filled all the sockets in the EI (4116s were > relatively cheap by then) so I never tried it with anythiog other than 48K. Although it was theoretically possible to run TRS-DOS 2.0 and 2.1 in 16K, [would Micro-DOS, APR-DOS, DOS-PLUS, NEWDOS, VVTOS, L-DOS fit in 16K?], there are no confirmed reliable reports of anybody ever doing so. Well, except for people who paid RS prices for their 4116s, and how reliable are they? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 4 16:39:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 14:39:05 -0700 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <201208042039.QAA21486@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <501D7714.2070208@brouhaha.com>, <201208042039.QAA21486@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <501D3409.17286.18CBEE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2012 at 16:39, Mouse wrote: > I'm just thinking that I probably would not buy a set at $150 but very > well might at $50.... Titanium-nitride PVD steel. Looks like gold, doesn't scratch. Cheap. (I have mouthpiece rims done that way, but stainless underneath the TiN coating). You can also get other colors, including a very cool bluish tint. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Aug 4 16:43:42 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:43:42 -0600 Subject: Good article in Time on the TRS-80 Model 1 In-Reply-To: <20120804134524.M77476@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120804134524.M77476@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <501D978E.4030006@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Although it was theoretically possible to run TRS-DOS 2.0 and 2.1 in > 16K, [would Micro-DOS, APR-DOS, DOS-PLUS, NEWDOS, VVTOS, L-DOS fit in > 16K?], there are no confirmed reliable reports of anybody ever doing > so. Well, except for people who paid RS prices for their 4116s, and > how reliable are they? Most if not all of the operating systems that were intended to be capable of running software for Model I TRS-DOS 2.x were capable of running on a 16K machine, because they had to confine themselves to basically the same memory footprint as TRS-DOS for compatibility. To squeeze in the added functionality, they used more overlays, and in some cases reduced the size of the resident code to make the overlay area slightly larger. Some of the operating systems had optional features that would use high memory. Those may or may not work on 16K or 32K systems. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 19:34:55 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: <20120804105222.Y72816@shell.lmi.net> References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120804105222.Y72816@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1344126895.99778.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin Not doubting your word, but how would we know? And much easier to believe if you provided the full information. C: You'll just have to believe me. And what is the sudden interest in this book all of a sudden?? From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Aug 4 20:15:13 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anchor Electronics in Santa Clara a.k.a. Solid State Music (SSM) Message-ID: Hey All! I was over at Anchor Electronics today getting some parts for a PDP-1 replica I'm finishing. I was reading the About page on their website and learned that Anchor Electronics was founded by the same guy who founded Solid State Music, maker of many fine S-100 boards and other personal computer products throughout the 1970s and 1980s. I thought it was interesting so I am passing it along. http://www.anchor-electronics.com/about_us/about_us.html -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 4 20:45:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: <1344126895.99778.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120804105222.Y72816@shell.lmi.net> <1344126895.99778.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120804182337.R83333@shell.lmi.net> C:\DERP> You'll just have to believe me. And what is the sudden interest > in this book all of a sudden?? Don't know; you are the first person to ask about it that I'm aware of. Amongst my photography books from the 1940s and 1950s, there is a book entitled "Color and Black and White". It might have been by Morgan and Lester, as a supplement to their darkroom reference, but I don't have convenient access right now. It was most definitely NOT a textbook, and I don't think that there is a 2nd edition. Hardcover (certainly no picture on the cover) and no dust jacket. So, no picture of a test pattern, which would have been unlikely in that genre. Its popularity was supplanted by Kodak's "Color As Seen And Photographed", and the Kodak "Darkroom Dataguide" and "Color Dataguide", which was full of charts, diagrams, gray card and color test patches, and even multiple spinning wheel calculators. 40 years ago, I traded one copy for unfettered access to the files of the Michigan Water Resources board; I wouldn't trade my remaining copy for anything less than a Kurta or Summicron. Some old editions of Morgan and Lester's Leica Manual did have a B&W picture of a test pattern inside, in a discussion of how to photograph TV screens. 25? years ago, Dr. Marty and I did a quick and dirty summary of the basic techniques for Rainbow (Coco) magazine. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 4 20:53:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good article in Time on the TRS-80 Model 1 In-Reply-To: <501D978E.4030006@brouhaha.com> References: <20120804134524.M77476@shell.lmi.net> <501D978E.4030006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120804185202.N83333@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 4 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Most if not all of the operating systems that were intended to be > capable of running software for Model I TRS-DOS 2.x were capable of > running on a 16K machine, because they had to confine themselves to > basically the same memory footprint as TRS-DOS for compatibility. To > squeeze in the added functionality, they used more overlays, and in some > cases reduced the size of the resident code to make the overlay area > slightly larger. FMG (relocated CP/M) would probably not have enough TPA to launch DDT From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 21:09:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: <20120804182337.R83333@shell.lmi.net> References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120804105222.Y72816@shell.lmi.net> <1344126895.99778.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120804182337.R83333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1344132597.18234.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin C:\DERP> You'll just have to believe me. And what is the sudden interest > in this book all of a sudden?? Don't know; you are the first person to ask about it that I'm aware of. C: I actually do appreciate when I'm the only person looking for something. Makes it easier to get? it :) ?Trust me it's a book on television servicing. I'm looking at some of the stock photos on abebooks, and I'm wondering if my brain just isn't working correctly again. Those pictures actually look familiar (but a number of disparate isbn numbers have the same picture, which is possible I guess, but unlikely). But chances are I'm correct and there was a test pattern on one of the editions. Or printings. I'm trying to track down specifics. I'll post my findings as it becomes appropriate to. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Aug 4 21:35:40 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 22:35:40 -0400 Subject: Good article in Time on the TRS-80 Model 1 In-Reply-To: <20120804185202.N83333@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120804134524.M77476@shell.lmi.net> <501D978E.4030006@brouhaha.com> <20120804185202.N83333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <501DDBFC.7010802@verizon.net> On 08/04/2012 09:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 4 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: >> Most if not all of the operating systems that were intended to be >> capable of running software for Model I TRS-DOS 2.x were capable of >> running on a 16K machine, because they had to confine themselves to >> basically the same memory footprint as TRS-DOS for compatibility. To >> squeeze in the added functionality, they used more overlays, and in some >> cases reduced the size of the resident code to make the overlay area >> slightly larger. > FMG (relocated CP/M) would probably not have enough TPA to launch DDT > > > > > CP/M2 would use 5.5K for the CCP and BDOS, Likely less than 2K for the BIOS and DDT needs 7K. Since CP/M allows for overlaying the CCP you get 2K right there for use at no real cost. You would be left with very little free space for an application (about 3-4K) but TRSDOS would not be any better off with only 16K. Due to the 16K offset applications were not portable to the relocated CP/M unless reassembled or recompiled. With 32K both become usable. The TRS80 was unusual in that the first 16K was eaten up by LII basic (12K), Video memory (1K) and memory mapped keyboard (256 addresses) with many phantoms (minimally decoded addresses) in that first 16K. That limited the system to 48K of ram and would later lead to bank switching the first 16K with mapped ram. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 4 21:43:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 19:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Color and Black and White" - textbook In-Reply-To: <1344132597.18234.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344048857.60736.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1344055166.83451.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120804105222.Y72816@shell.lmi.net> <1344126895.99778.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120804182337.R83333@shell.lmi.net> <1344132597.18234.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120804191901.O84384@shell.lmi.net> C: I actually do appreciate when I'm the only person looking for > something. Makes it easier to get? it :) > Trust me it's a book on television servicing. I'm looking at some of the > stock photos on abebooks, and I'm wondering if my brain just isn't > working correctly again. Those pictures actually look familiar (but a > number of disparate isbn numbers have the same picture, which is > possible I guess, but unlikely). In the early days of ISBN[-10], not all publishers really "got it". It was common for the same ISBN to get used on multiple editions, and for different ISBNs to be used for different printings, not just hardcvover V paperback. There are a few other numbers to consider as an alternative to ISBN for identification. (although not ASIN, which is just Amazon's stock number substitute for items without ISBN) Have you checked details with RR Bowker ("Books In Print")? That won't have cover art, but could give you a list of which editions, ISBNs, existed, IFF it was in print in the last 20 years or so. Sorry, I recently got rid of my 1990 dead-tree shelf-full of BIP. > But chances are I'm correct and there was a test pattern on > one of the editions. Or printings. I'm trying to track down specifics. > I'll post my findings as it becomes appropriate to. Good luck, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hachti at hachti.de Sat Aug 4 22:43:55 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 05:43:55 +0200 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501DEBFB.6080807@hachti.de> Hi Paul, nice to read someone mentioning a H316! Am 22.07.2012 05:35, schrieb Paul Anderson: > My father worked in a mine in the '70s that was using a Honeywell 316 for > process control. Interesting. I'd love to get some sort of working process control for the x16 I/O bus... > I was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track one > down. I *know* about a handfull (or two) machines around the world. I don't know much about those systems' conditions. But they should mostly work when powered on. The stuff seems to be very reliable. I have a working H316. And another sitting there unused - but the second one is not my unit. Both are working perfectly except for one bad sense amplifier in the second unit. > What are they worth the days? No idea. They're too rare to know. I assume that a working unit would cost at least USD 500 on eBay. > How common are they? Not very common. But good vintage computers. Kind regards, Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 00:20:36 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 02:20:36 -0300 Subject: Repairing a Laserjet (from II to 4000) References: <501DEBFB.6080807@hachti.de> Message-ID: http://youtu.be/S9pYLeo0svs Here you have, yours truly showing the binding problem on the paper pickup solenoid that lives in ALL laserjets I know, since Laserjet II :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From jgevaryahu at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 21:11:10 2012 From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2012 22:11:10 -0400 Subject: Looking for DEC VT125 Maintenance print sheets (since VK100 MP is AWOL) - FOUND! In-Reply-To: <5014B08C.5050409@gmail.com> References: <5014B08C.5050409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <501DD63E.5000708@gmail.com> Al Kossow found and scanned the VT125 Maintenance Print set: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt125/MP01053_VT125_Mar82.pdf Thank you SO MUCH, Al! This will be extremely helpful. On 7/28/2012 11:39 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the DEC VT125 Maintenance print sheet set? > The mp sheets are DEC part number #MP-01053-00 > These should hopefully be slightly easier to find than the VK100 MP > sheets. > These are needed for repairing a VK100 and for a project > reverse-engineering how the hardware worked, since it turns out the > VT125 uses an almost but not exactly identical state machine "engine" > for drawing vectors to the VK100. This VT125 information should be > extrapolatable to the VK100 hardware which preceded it. > The Tech manual for the VT125 is on bitsavers as part of the VT100 > Tech manual revision 3 ( > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/EK-VT100-TM-003_VT100_Technical_Manual_Jul82.pdf > starting on page 6-70, pdf page 316) > I'd be more than willing to scan (at high quality) or photocopy the MP > sheets if anyone has a copy they could lend me. A good quality 11x17 > 1:1 photocopy of the originals is better than nothing, as long as the > tiny labels on the schematics are still readable. (If all you have is > a poor photocopy, though, let me know! A poor copy is better than no > copy at all!) > I am fine paying for shipping, handling, finding/digging out of a > pile, etc. > > P.S. Does anyone have a VT125 and the means to dump the three code > roms on it? I'd love to get my hands on a copy of those as well. > > P.P.S. Does anyone have a VT125 and a desoldering station/know-how to > remove and dump the ?five? proms on it? They're not immediately > necessary but it would be convenient to have copies of their data for > the future and to help with potential repairs. > > P.P.P.S. If anyone has a not-installed VT100->VT125 upgrade kit which > they are willing to sell, let me know off-list. > -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 01:14:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 01:14:39 -0500 Subject: Finding a Honeywell 316? In-Reply-To: <501DEBFB.6080807@hachti.de> References: <501DEBFB.6080807@hachti.de> Message-ID: glad to hear theres some still out there allot of the industrial stuff is forgoten and lost witch is real sad On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Paul, > > nice to read someone mentioning a H316! > > > Am 22.07.2012 05:35, schrieb Paul Anderson: > > My father worked in a mine in the '70s that was using a Honeywell 316 for >> process control. >> > Interesting. I'd love to get some sort of working process control for the > x16 I/O bus... > > > I was thinking it might be neat to see if I could track one >> down. >> > I *know* about a handfull (or two) machines around the world. I don't know > much about those systems' conditions. But they should mostly work when > powered on. The stuff seems to be very reliable. > I have a working H316. And another sitting there unused - but the second > one is not my unit. Both are working perfectly except for one bad sense > amplifier in the second unit. > > > What are they worth the days? >> > No idea. They're too rare to know. I assume that a working unit would cost > at least USD 500 on eBay. > > How common are they? >> > Not very common. But good vintage computers. > > > > Kind regards, > > Philipp > > > > > > > -- > > > Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann > Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Aug 5 07:37:26 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 13:37:26 +0100 Subject: WTD: Polaroid Palette film recorder software / docs Message-ID: <501E6906.6000700@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I think this could possibly count as the longest of long shots, but I figure it's at least worth a go :) About a month ago, I picked up a Polaroid HR-6000 film recorder. This is one of their "Digital Palette" series film recorders (of which the CI-3000, CI-5000, HR-6000SE and ProPalette 7000 and ProPalette 8000 are also members). The machine works fine, as long as you run it on a Windows XP machine. Even then, the software is finicky and prone to crashing out in strange and mysterious ways. Being Windows, a reboot is usually required to fix things. I'd like to see it working on one of my Linux boxen :) I've managed to reverse engineer the Polaroid driver to the point where I have a reasonably complete list of the basic SCSI commands and sequencing required to get something output. However there are several things I haven't managed to figure out - the huge stack of magic numbers, for instance. What I'm after (the Holy Grail so to speak) are either the header files or the full source code for the Polaroid Interface Toolkit. This was an SDK Polaroid used to give out free to developers back-in-the-day, and nearly all the software I've seen was derived from it. A copy of this and/or its accompanying documentation would likely answer the last few of my questions about the command set and hardware. I'm also interested in documentation and software for the Palette and Digital Palette series - especially but not limited to: - Parallel Port Interface Specification Manual (probably useless, but may contain info useful for figuring out more of the SCSI command data blocks) - Digital Palette Product Specification Manual - SCSI Parallel Interface Specification Manual - the "Digital Palette Test Software" disk (GENTEST and DP2DIAG), Polaroid part number / tool number 13437 For what it's worth, I also know software existed for the following platforms: - DOS (Polaroid Palette for DOS) - Windows 3.1 (Zenographics SuperPrint for Polaroid Palette) - Windows 95/98/XP (Graphx RasterPlus 95, now sold by Photogize for a rather silly amount of money) - Mac Classic (Polaroid Palette Export for Macintosh) - Amiga (ASDG Art Department Professional) - NeXT (eXTRASlide -- http://www.kevra.org/TheBestOfNext/ThirdPartyProducts/ThirdPartySoftware/InputOutputAndStorage/eXTRASLIDE/eXTRASLIDE.html ) - Atari ST (can't find any evidence of this beyond Polaroid's marketing materials) Whether copies of any of this software (besides RasterPlus) still exist is another matter entirely... If you've got any of the stuff above (or anything else which could be useful) please either reply here or send me an email. Thanks again, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 11:45:34 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:45:34 +0100 Subject: Free to good home - DEC TS05 Tape Drive - Manchester UK In-Reply-To: <501CCB68.2050900@neurotica.com> References: <501CCB68.2050900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <501EA32E.9010604@gmail.com> On 04/08/2012 08:12, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/03/2012 06:30 PM, Dave wrote: >>> That was not my intention. I'm just trying to put things >>> into perspective here. It is not a large device. It's a >>> tabletop box. I have trouble envisioning a situation in >>> which someone can't find space for that. >> I'll post some pics! > Please do! > > -Dave > http://www.flickr.com/photos/69740364 at N02/sets/72157630915609622/ But I have been distracted.... http://www.gb2012ms.com/ So I'll tidy after the games... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 5 12:38:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 18:38:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <201208042039.QAA21486@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Aug 4, 12 04:39:43 pm Message-ID: > Hm, has he considered other metals? Saving on the anodizing might make > brass, or a mild steel, or some such, cheap enough to be worth doing. My experience with buying small quatities of metals and machine them suggests : Aluminium : Farily cheap, Soft, and fifficult to machine well, it 'clogs' the cutting tools Mild seteel : Cheapest of the lot. Harder than brass or aluminium, but still not hard to work. Worst problem is that it rusts far too quickly Stainless steel : More expensive than mild steel or aluminium, but chealper than brass. A hard mataerial, but not difficult to machine if you have sharp tools. I like it Brass. Most expensive of the common materials. If you pick a 'machining brass' like CZ121, it is bautiful stuff to work. I'd use it a lot more if I could afford it. But it does tarnish in air. > > I'm just thinking that I probably would not buy a set at $150 but very > well might at $50.... That's basically my view. I'd like a set, but there are many more things I could send 100 quid on... > > For that matter, what about non-metals? A hard wood might make for a > nice set too, especially if the engraving is filled with paint and the > whole thing lacquered, or some such. Perhaps even plastic, though that > seems a bit d?class?, and quite possibly not suitable for garage > machine-shop production anyway. Actually, a lot of 'enginering plastics' can be machined like metals. Things like Nylon and delrin are worked in much the same way and certainlt can be machined i na home workshop. If anything, it's wood that taat's the 'odd one out' in terms of machining it. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 5 13:46:04 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 12:46:04 -0600 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/5/2012 11:38 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, a lot of 'enginering plastics' can be machined like metals. > Things like Nylon and delrin are worked in much the same way and > certainlt can be machined i na home workshop. If anything, it's wood > that taat's the 'odd one out' in terms of machining it. But wood has real feel to it, life that other materials do not. This is classic comp talk, so lets update to the 20th century. - Genaille?Lucas rulers - > -tony > Ben. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Aug 5 13:53:47 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 19:53:47 +0100 Subject: Shrinkwrapped DEC software available, UK Message-ID: Fellow cctalkers, I rescued this lot from work before it was binned but I'm not sure how much interest there'll be for it. Free as long as you pay shipping or collect from Cambs, UK: 1 Storageworks Command Console 2.1 Several 'Serverworks Manager' kits. If nobody's bothered I'll take them to recycling. Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 5 15:18:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 13:18:11 -0700 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: <201208042039.QAA21486@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Aug 4, 12 04:39:43 pm, Message-ID: <501E7293.31531.132B739@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2012 at 18:38, Tony Duell wrote: > Aluminium : Farily cheap, Soft, and fifficult to machine well, it > 'clogs' the cutting tools My least favorite utility metal. > Mild seteel : Cheapest of the lot. Harder than brass or aluminium, but > still not hard to work. Worst problem is that it rusts far too quickly On the other hand, plating (especially electroless nickel( is inexpensive and extremely durable. > Stainless steel : More expensive than mild steel or aluminium, but > chealper than brass. A hard mataerial, but not difficult to machine if > you have sharp tools. I like it See my comment about PVD coating--very sexy. > Brass. Most expensive of the common materials. If you pick a > 'machining brass' like CZ121, it is bautiful stuff to work. I'd use it > a lot more if I could afford it. But it does tarnish in air. I like brass, both for the ease of working and its heft. Finishing is easy--there are lots of plating choices, or just give it a coat of clear epoxy lacquer. It's also available in a wide variety of shapes. Keeps the old-timey feel of things. There are also bronzes and copper, as well as exotics, such as palladium, silver or gold if money is no object. I'd steer clear of magnesium and titanium--they require special techniques for working and the swarf is highly flammable. --Chuck > > > > > > I'm just thinking that I probably would not buy a set at $150 but > > very well might at $50.... > > That's basically my view. I'd like a set, but there are many more > things I could send 100 quid on... > > > > > For that matter, what about non-metals? A hard wood might make for > > a nice set too, especially if the engraving is filled with paint and > > the whole thing lacquered, or some such. Perhaps even plastic, > > though that seems a bit d?class?, and quite possibly not suitable > > for garage machine-shop production anyway. > > Actually, a lot of 'enginering plastics' can be machined like metals. > Things like Nylon and delrin are worked in much the same way and > certainlt can be machined i na home workshop. If anything, it's wood > that taat's the 'odd one out' in terms of machining it. > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 5 15:37:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 13:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20120805133629.R6725@shell.lmi.net> Although even nylon would be OK, once we've ruled out rosewood, brass would be real nice. From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 5 21:47:11 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 22:47:11 -0400 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aluminum needs a cutting fluid to prevent galling. If you don't have commercial stuff, turpentine works very well. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-05, at 1:38 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Hm, has he considered other metals? Saving on the anodizing might make >> brass, or a mild steel, or some such, cheap enough to be worth doing. > > My experience with buying small quatities of metals and machine them > suggests : > > Aluminium : Farily cheap, Soft, and fifficult to machine well, it 'clogs' > the cutting tools > > Mild seteel : Cheapest of the lot. Harder than brass or aluminium, but > still not hard to work. Worst problem is that it rusts far too quickly > > Stainless steel : More expensive than mild steel or aluminium, but > chealper than brass. A hard mataerial, but not difficult to machine if > you have sharp tools. I like it > > Brass. Most expensive of the common materials. If you pick a 'machining > brass' like CZ121, it is bautiful stuff to work. I'd use it a lot more if > I could afford it. But it does tarnish in air. > > >> >> I'm just thinking that I probably would not buy a set at $150 but very >> well might at $50.... > > That's basically my view. I'd like a set, but there are many more things > I could send 100 quid on... > >> >> For that matter, what about non-metals? A hard wood might make for a >> nice set too, especially if the engraving is filled with paint and the >> whole thing lacquered, or some such. Perhaps even plastic, though that >> seems a bit d?class?, and quite possibly not suitable for garage >> machine-shop production anyway. > > Actually, a lot of 'enginering plastics' can be machined like metals. > Things like Nylon and delrin are worked in much the same way and > certainlt can be machined i na home workshop. If anything, it's wood > that taat's the 'odd one out' in terms of machining it. > > -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 22:03:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 20:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1344222189.32806.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Aluminium : Farily cheap, Soft, and fifficult to machine well, it 'clogs' > the cutting tools I haven't followed this thread until now. Not sure what it's about. some aluminum-s machine quite well. I remember taking a cut on an aluminum faceplate on my old Unimat 3 ?(can't give any specifics, but it didn't seem that hard) and fine angel hair shavings came off. I was using a brand new pre-cut German made cutting tool I'll point out, and was turning at fairly high speeds. ?The stuff that turns best IMHO is stuff w/lead in it's content. Yellow brass, leaded steel, etc. It "spits" the metal as opposed to creating continuous shavings. It's has to do w/the way the lead adjoins other metals w/i the crystalline matrix. ?Ok I'm going back to sleep. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 5 22:07:16 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 22:07:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> For that matter, what about non-metals? A hard wood might make for a >> nice set too, especially if the engraving is filled with paint and the >> whole thing lacquered, or some such. Perhaps even plastic, though that >> seems a bit d?class?, and quite possibly not suitable for garage >> machine-shop production anyway. > > Actually, a lot of 'enginering plastics' can be machined like metals. > Things like Nylon and delrin are worked in much the same way and > certainlt can be machined i na home workshop. If anything, it's wood > that taat's the 'odd one out' in terms of machining it. Actually, wood might be one of the easier materials to work with, if you machine it with a laser cutter/engraver. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 00:26:03 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 00:26:03 -0500 Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity Message-ID: I have two 25 foot lockers of mostly DEC items I would like to sell within the next few months. I can ship by the box, pallet, gaylord,or truckload. I do not have a complete inventory listing, but feel free to inquire off list. The following is a limited sample: LA36's, and parts LA120's and parts Vav3100's- a dozen or so 3000's 5000's 11/780, 785 boards 6000 boards 8000 unibus options and several thousand boards 8A, E, F, M boxes and about 1000 boards Various table top LAxx printers and parts VT's, monitors and parts tons (literally) more I am not selling any H960's (still need a few) , Unibus systems,RK05's, RL's, RX's (except a few replacement drives) or any media for the listed drives. I might be looking for a VT05, LA180, and a TU10. Please feel free to contact me off list with any questions. Thanks, Paul From jgevaryahu at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 09:12:52 2012 From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 10:12:52 -0400 Subject: Repairing a Laserjet (from II to 4000) Message-ID: <501E7F64.40906@gmail.com> Hmm. It looks to me like the metal with the black goo on it (which is scraped off with a razor in the video) once had a piece of thin foam glued to it. Like many things made out of that type of foam, (i.e. keytronic keyboards, and the anti-noise foam inside certain dec, sun, and other older machines), the foam has turned into sticky goop after a number of years (and probably exposure to ozone inside the printer), causing the solenoid to stick. Just a guess, since I don't have one of those nearby to take apart. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 01:16:04 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 03:16:04 -0300 Subject: Repairing a Laserjet (from II to 4000) References: <501E7F64.40906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E9C25E917114790AE18E0775A542ECE@tababook> Yep, that is exactely what I said on the video :o) This happens on EVERY laserjet :( I fixed a pair today :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Gevaryahu" To: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Repairing a Laserjet (from II to 4000) > Hmm. It looks to me like the metal with the black goo on it (which is > scraped off with a razor in the video) once had a piece of thin foam > glued to it. > Like many things made out of that type of foam, (i.e. keytronic > keyboards, and the anti-noise foam inside certain dec, sun, and other > older machines), the foam has turned into sticky goop after a number of > years (and probably exposure to ozone inside the printer), causing the > solenoid to stick. > Just a guess, since I don't have one of those nearby to take apart. > > -- > Jonathan Gevaryahu > jgevaryahu at gmail.com > jgevaryahu at hotmail.com > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 01:25:30 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 01:25:30 -0500 Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, everything is from zip 61853, located outside Champaign, Illinois On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have two 25 foot lockers of mostly DEC items I would like to sell > within the next few months. I can ship by the box, pallet, gaylord,or > truckload. > > I do not have a complete inventory listing, but feel free to inquire > off list. The following is a limited sample: > > LA36's, and parts > LA120's and parts > Vav3100's- a dozen or so > 3000's > 5000's > 11/780, 785 boards > 6000 boards > 8000 unibus options and several thousand boards > 8A, E, F, M boxes and about 1000 boards > Various table top LAxx printers and parts > VT's, monitors and parts > tons (literally) more > > I am not selling any H960's (still need a few) , Unibus > systems,RK05's, RL's, RX's (except a few replacement drives) or any > media for the listed drives. I might be looking for a VT05, LA180, and > a TU10. > > Please feel free to contact me off list with any questions. > > Thanks, Paul From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 01:45:47 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 16:45:47 +1000 Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Paul, I would be interested in : PDP-8 Omnibus RX floppy drive controllers DEC Alpha Multia parts (stand, mainboards, floppy drives etc) VAX 2000 parts including MFM hard drives thanks, nigel. On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have two 25 foot lockers of mostly DEC items I would like to sell > within the next few months. I can ship by the box, pallet, gaylord,or > truckload. > > I do not have a complete inventory listing, but feel free to inquire > off list. The following is a limited sample: > > LA36's, and parts > LA120's and parts > Vav3100's- a dozen or so > 3000's > 5000's > 11/780, 785 boards > 6000 boards > 8000 unibus options and several thousand boards > 8A, E, F, M boxes and about 1000 boards > Various table top LAxx printers and parts > VT's, monitors and parts > tons (literally) more > > I am not selling any H960's (still need a few) , Unibus > systems,RK05's, RL's, RX's (except a few replacement drives) or any > media for the listed drives. I might be looking for a VT05, LA180, and > a TU10. > > Please feel free to contact me off list with any questions. > > Thanks, Paul > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 6 01:57:12 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 00:57:12 -0600 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501F6AC8.50002@brouhaha.com> Tothwolf wrote: > Actually, wood might be one of the easier materials to work with, if > you machine it with a laser cutter/engraver. If you don't mind a burnt finish. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Aug 6 03:42:31 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 10:42:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > You were somewhat lucky. Sometimes the horizotnal output transsitor just > fials (as yours did), but sometimes it's killed by some other fault > (shorted turned in the flyback transoformer being the worst, but > shorted/leaky diodes and capacitors in that circuit can do it too). I > haev learnt by bitter experience to always order a few spare transistors > when fixing this kind of fault in case the new one fails instantly at > switch-on. So true. I can't tell the number of times that I repaired my parent's TV set. It regularily killed the HOT about once every two years. I've tried many things in order to prevent this (assumed a poor circuit design, after all, the poor BD508 has to provide enough power for a 90cm CRT). I replaced all suspect components (HOT driver IC, flyback, cascade), but still, it blew (i.e. shorted C-E) after some time. One day, I had the idea to suspect not an electronic component, but think it might be something different. I had a deeper look at the isolating mica piece between the HOT and the chassis. There was nothing visible, but nonetheless I replaced it with a modern isolating silicone part. Since then, no more failing HOT. So my guess is that the mica became somehow sensible to high voltage differences and sometimes shorted the collector to the chassis. For now, the TV's running fine (it's 25 years old now). Christian From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Aug 6 06:01:41 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 13:01:41 +0200 Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120806110141.GB73713@beast.freibergnet.de> Christian Corti wrote: > On Sat, 4 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > >You were somewhat lucky. Sometimes the horizotnal output transsitor just > >fials (as yours did), but sometimes it's killed by some other fault > >(shorted turned in the flyback transoformer being the worst, but > >shorted/leaky diodes and capacitors in that circuit can do it too). I > >haev learnt by bitter experience to always order a few spare transistors > >when fixing this kind of fault in case the new one fails instantly at > >switch-on. > > So true. I can't tell the number of times that I repaired my parent's TV > set. It regularily killed the HOT about once every two years. I've tried > many things in order to prevent this (assumed a poor circuit design, after > all, the poor BD508 has to provide enough power for a 90cm CRT). I > replaced all suspect components (HOT driver IC, flyback, cascade), but > still, it blew (i.e. shorted C-E) after some time. One day, I had the idea > to suspect not an electronic component, but think it might be something > different. I had a deeper look at the isolating mica piece between the HOT > and the chassis. There was nothing visible, but nonetheless I replaced it > with a modern isolating silicone part. Since then, no more failing HOT. > So my guess is that the mica became somehow sensible to high voltage > differences and sometimes shorted the collector to the chassis. > For now, the TV's running fine (it's 25 years old now). > > Christian BU508 .. not BD. I had a Beco TV chassis to repair after several tries from a local company to repair it. The HOT died every time you switched of the TV Set. It ran for ages to test it, but every time you switched it off .. poff. The cause was exactly the same, the Mica below the Transiistor. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 6 07:29:16 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 07:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <501F6AC8.50002@brouhaha.com> References: <501F6AC8.50002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: > >> Actually, wood might be one of the easier materials to work with, if you >> machine it with a laser cutter/engraver. > > If you don't mind a burnt finish. That really depends on the laser power used and the material you are working with. If the numbers are going to be inlaid with paint (as mentioned earlier in the thread) then it wouldn't much matter anyway so you could use woods which would darken more. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 6 09:00:05 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:00:05 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> Message-ID: <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/12 4:21 AM, Peter Van Peborgh wrote: > Guys, > I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM 7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! > This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in 1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. > It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. > I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes > of mixed content and some card trays of mixed content. > Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport will be a challenge, but surmountable! > The Computer History Museum in California is interested, and I can take care of the shipping costs. From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Mon Aug 6 06:21:06 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 12:21:06 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 Message-ID: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> Guys, I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM 7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in 1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes of mixed content and some card trays of mixed content. Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport will be a challenge, but surmountable! The stuff will be available in the first week of September. Any sensible offers will be considered. It might go on eBay but I will wait until you guys respond first. Kind regards, peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 10:19:27 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 11:19:27 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The Computer History Museum in California is interested, and I can take care > of the shipping costs. Yes, I think CHM would be a good home for it. -- Will From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Aug 6 10:44:55 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 17:44:55 +0200 Subject: Dates (was: Re: OS/8 dates) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-16 06:27, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > It is obvious that we disagree on my basic premise - that internally, > sufficient > bits be available to represent the date starting at a date far enough in > the past > to handle many old dates in the countries which would use the operating > system. Some operating systems such as VMS achieved most of that > goal. On OS/8, Unix and RT-11, as just a few examples, it would have > required a decision to double the number of bits over what was actually > used. What I think we seem to disagree on is the idea that this could ever be solved in the general case. You always will have some restriction on dates in a computer system. So the question becomes what would be reasonable restrictions. For a system like OS/8, I think that the original design, using only 3 bits for the year was a little too little, but the extension made, which added two more bits, allowing a range of 32 years was more than reasonable, given the right requirements for memory usage on PDP-8 systems in general. Doing something equally complex as can be done on a PDP-11 would not be justifiable on a PDP-8. PDP-11, then again, have issues which means the solution used on VAXen was not really justifiable. To reiterate - on a VAX running VMS, the date is kept in modified julian date, using 100ns increments stored in an 64 bit integer. Using 64-bit values, and doing arithmentic on them, is not cheap on a PDP-11, nor very nice from a storage point. Now, RSX eventually did support most of this, but it's not something for weak machines, and it's still a pain. Unix choose 32-bit integers, counting seconds since 1970. Also a rather restricted range, and yes, it will run out in 2038, or something like that (someone else can look up the specifics, it's widespread, and simple to calculate yourself if you want to). However, it was a reasonable choice for Unix when initially done on a PDP-11. Storage was important, more so in the age of the PDP-8. Every single bit was counted. You did not waste a whole word. To do so was horrible. Good code managed to squeeze a bunch of instructions into also being data, thus reusing bits whenever. > For OS/8 and RT-11, the simple solution would have been to use half a > word for the month and day (not sure what half a word is called on a PDP/8) > and a full word for the year. Half a word would still be half a word. And such a waste as you suggest would never have been acceptable on a PDP-8. > Probably, the question of having adequate support for the date was the > real decision. I have seen multi-million dollar systems which ignore the > date (like a micro-wave) and only provide the time. But if there is a > disk drive with files and dates to be noted when the file was created > and at least modified (and perhaps referenced), then there can always > be a reason to use dates on some files which precede the start of the > operating system - to note when the information within the file was > actually created is just one possibility. > > If this above basic premise is not considered adequate to justify allocating > a word in memory for the year rather than 5 bits in the case of RT-11 > (eventually 7 bits to manage dates from 1972 until 2099) and however > many bits were used in OS/8, then there is really no point in this > discussion. OS/8 use 3 bits for year in a file date. It was never extended. However, two more bits was inferred based on the current date. Often works well enough, but files older than 8 years old will display wrong. And yes, using more bits than this was not considered acceptable at the time. > In respect of such vital information as the date, saving a few bits was not > justified in my opinion. The fact that VMS arrived later than OS/8 and > RT-11, but allowed dates much before VMS was ever released suggests > that DEC had begun to realize that the date was important. The same > with RSX-11. I think it's fair to say that it has always been understood that there are times when you want to represent larger date ranges, but it's a tradeoff that has to be made. And for systems like OS/8, the tradeoff was done the way described above, and I think that it was a reasonable decision. Only with VMS was storage and processing powers becoming cheap enough that you could really afford to be more generous. RSX date format do indeed give a really large range, and is very wasteful of bits. But that was done to keep processing to a minimum. So there is a good reason for the RSX choice as well. The RSX format is a headache if you want to do some kind of things, but for what the kernel uses it for, it's really simple. > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> > >On 2012-07-13 19:00, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >> > >>>> >> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> >>>>> >>> >[Snip] >>>>> >>> >Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. >>>>> >>> >A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. >>>>> >>> >That's ugly of them. >>> >> >>> >>What seems even more evident to me is that DEC took >>> >>(as most other companies did as well) the attitude that >>> >>even the internal representation of date and time was >>> >>not important enough to allow the same information to >>> >>be exchanged between operating systems on a consistent >>> >>basis. >> > >> >Sorry, but I fail to see the point. The internal representation of a >> >date will almost by necessity be different between different OSes and >> >hardware. Having a bunch of 16 bit values represent a date on a PDP-8 >> >would be incredibly stupid and difficult, not to mention that OS/8 >> >have no concept of time to more detail than a day. And even that needs >> >to be updated manually every day. > Your assumption differs from what I would suggest - see above. I'm not sure it's an assumption difference. I think I made an observation. Maybe if you point out what assumption I made, then I can comment on it... >> >So, ignoring the internal format, which can't really be portable >> >anyway, you then get to representation. There will always be dates >> >that cannot be represented in whatever format you choose. So what is >> >the point of bringing up that argument? It is nice if the dates that >> >you might reasonably expect to be processes be possible to express on >> >the system. As for communicating with other systems, in the >> >communication I would suspect/expect that you use an intermediate >> >format (a nice text string for example) that both agree on. And then >> >you can convert from the internal format to and from this intermediate >> >format, as long as the date is within a range expressable on that system. > That would be one solution, but other solutions are available. The > most important point is to have sufficient internal bits to start with. As I have already noted that there can never be "sufficient number of bits", let's skip that part. I also pointed out that the internal format cannot be the same within all OSes, running on different architectures. If you disagree on any of these two points, let me know, and we can have a discussion about those. Assuming you agree with the above, then there is no avoiding going through some intermediate form when communicating between different systems. What other solution do you claim is possible??? >> >When you go outside the date range for the system, you can either try >> >to do something reasonable, or give an error. I think that is a choice >> >that is best left to the writers of the code to decide on a case by >> >case basis. > I agree - the point I attempt to make is to stress the requirement > to have sufficient internal date range to start with - see above. Ok. Let's back up here. Are you suggesting a common internal representation of dates on all systems? What range would you consider "sufficient"? Also, what format would you propose that would be equal between all computers, having different word lengths, different capable CPUs, different speeds, different resolution clocks, and so on. And which is truly future proof? >> >By the way, Unix express time as a number of seconds since Jan 1, >> >1970, 00:00 UTC. > Which I think provides a maximum year of 2038 if 32 signed bits > are used. Far better would have been to use 64 bits with a > higher resolution such as milliseconds and start at least as far > back as 1900. Except that today people are not really satisfied with millisecond resolutions. Unix systems nowadays have things that goes to microseconds, and soon I suspect people will start having issues with that as well. And dates before 1900 are definitely not unheard of. >> >And time is horribly complex. You know that even if we keep it fairly >> >modern, different countries switched from Julian dates to Gregorian >> >dates at different times, the last being Russia, in the early 20th >> >century. > I am well aware of the nature of how complex the subject of dates > and time can be. To start with, the Common Era (aka Gregorian) > Calendar is not used as the primary date representation by even a > majority of the Earth's population. However, with respect to using > computers, the countries and societies which first started to use > computers and the internet primarily use the Common Era Calendar > and I would suggest that the only dates which early computers did > support were Common Era (Gregorian) dates. I doubt that time > zones were even considered at that early stage, let alone considered > important enough to support internally, let alone externally. And > even if Russia was considered important enough as a market for > computer systems, I doubt that anyone would have remembered > that the country adopted the Gregorian Calendar less than a > hundred years prior. > > As for just how complex time actually is, the biggest problem > that few people realize is that the length of the year can vary by > many minutes from the average length of the year. I seem to > remember that the variation can be about 15 minutes. Every > so often, a leap second has been used to keep clocks synchronized > with astronomical time (that UTC you mentioned above). The > average person completely ignores that complexity, but now > with the internet, operating systems must know the time very > accurately. But the date is a completely different matter. At > any one location, the date changes, on average, every 86,400 > seconds - except when a leap second occurs - and having a > few extra bits internally to handle the year is, in my opinion, > essential. > > So the initial decision for the internal representation of the date > was the base date or earliest date to be represented. Many, > probably a majority of operating systems used a very restricted > choice which reflected the emphasis on using as little storage as > possible. In my opinion, that was a bad choice. You use what you have. Or don't use what you don't have in this case. Which was memory. When memory was expensive, you did not waste it on something you didn't really need. And having an over-expressive date format would have been considered extremely wasteful. I think it was a reasonable choice, and in fact the right choice at that time. If I wrote a new OS for a PDP-8 today I would still not do something overly complex or large in size. You simply can't afford such a thing on a PDP-8. >> >If you really think that you can come up with a reasonable, portable >> >design, that is "universal", I think I know of a few organizations >> >that would like to hear from you. > A "universal" design would be to use Julian Days (just a count of > the number of days from an agreed upon date - which has already > been accepted by astronomers) instead of dates. Then, convert from > Julian Days to whichever local calendar is favoured by the party > using the date. But that has already been rejected by most societies > and only a small percentage of the population are even aware that > Julian Days exist. There are too many reasons for most societies > to not use Julian Days - mostly religious in nature which requires > a seven days cycle to support a holy day every seven days. The > French attempted to start a new calendar, but failed - probably > mostly on the seven day cycle. VMS uses the modified julian day. The french attempt at a 10 day week failed because people got upset when they realized it meant less weekends. :-) Not that 10 hours per day felt all that great either... >> >Until then, I'm pretty much satisfied with things the way they already >> >are. Yes, OS/8 have been broken for 10 years now. But to fix it >> >require more than just changing the internal storage for the date. >> > >> >RSX got fixed, and depending on which bits you look, it might stop >> >working right 2070(?), 2099, 2155 or 34667. >> > >> >I don't know about RT-11, but I do know that RT-11 is totally separate >> >from RSX, and any problems are not shared, but unique. > I noticed you are aware of the TECO discussion on dates for > a number of different operating systems, so you probably > already know. > > RT-11 will break on January 1st, 2100 in the same manner as > OS/8 has already broken - there are no more bits in the date > word to handle more than a range of 128 years starting in 1972. > > The only solution is the add additional storage to hold more bits > for the year. Thus far, I know of only one other individual > (who supports RUST) who is serious about adding those extra > bits to the RT-11 file system, but there is no agreement as yet > about how to do that. If no one else will even discuss the question > of how dates for files in RT-11 can be used and extended beyond > the year 2100, then eventually a unilateral decision will be made - > or not as the case will be. Since it is probably not going to be > very important for RT-11 to support dates after 2099 except > for someone running RT-11 on an emulator (will any actual DEC > hardware still be running after 2099), the matter is probably only > of academic interest or only for hobby users - if any still exist > in 2100. Is file dates in RT-11 exactly the same format as system date? In OS/8 they differ, since two additional bits were added to the system date, but file system dates do not have that. Apart from that, yes, RT-11 dates will indeed break at some point. That's a problem in RT-11, which people who know and care about RT-11 needs to solve. And it is still a unique problem in RT-11. No point in trying to involve RSX, Unix, VMS, or any other OS in that discussion. Johnny From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Aug 6 11:02:18 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 18:02:18 +0200 Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Paul Anderson" Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 7:26 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity > I have two 25 foot lockers of mostly DEC items I would like to sell > within the next few months. I can ship by the box, pallet, gaylord,or > truckload. > > I do not have a complete inventory listing, but feel free to inquire > off list. The following is a limited sample: > > LA36's, and parts > LA120's and parts > Vav3100's- a dozen or so > 3000's > 5000's > 11/780, 785 boards > 6000 boards > 8000 unibus options and several thousand boards > 8A, E, F, M boxes and about 1000 boards > Various table top LAxx printers and parts > VT's, monitors and parts > tons (literally) more > > I am not selling any H960's (still need a few) , Unibus > systems,RK05's, RL's, RX's (except a few replacement drives) or any > media for the listed drives. I might be looking for a VT05, LA180, and > a TU10. > > Please feel free to contact me off list with any questions. > > Thanks, Paul > Hi Paul, I know this will not help you getting rid of the big piles, but I am still looking for the FILE PROT indicator and the 1600 BPI indicator of the TU45 tape drive. Those are the bottom two "squares" on the control panel at the top left side of the TU45 tape drive. If anybody has a smashed or defective TU45, and the FILE PROT and/or 1600 BPI indicator is still intact, or have them in a drawer, I am willing to pay some money for it/them! thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 11:11:53 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 17:11:53 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> Message-ID: <501FECC9.1030303@gmail.com> On 06/08/2012 12:21, Peter Van Peborgh wrote: > Guys, > > I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM 7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! > > This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in 1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. > > It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. > > I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes of mixed content and some card trays of mixed content. > > Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport will be a challenge, but surmountable! > > The stuff will be available in the first week of September. Any sensible offers will be considered. It might go on eBay but I will wait until you guys respond first. I think it should really go to a Museum and if TMNOC are interested I would be prepared to help with transport etc... > Kind regards, > > peter vp > || | | | | | | | | > Peter Van Peborgh > 62 St Mary's Rise > Writhlington Radstock > Somerset BA3 3PD > UK > 01761 439 234 > || | | | | | | | | -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 11:23:51 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 17:23:51 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> On 06/08/2012 15:00, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/6/12 4:21 AM, Peter Van Peborgh wrote: >> Guys, >> I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM >> 7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! >> This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons >> design?!) and finished in the Medical Computing department at >> Manchester Uni in 1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. >> It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM >> barrel printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer >> I/O. >> I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is >> a lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, >> s/w documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes >> of mixed content and some card trays of mixed content. >> Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so >> transport will be a challenge, but surmountable! >> > > The Computer History Museum in California is interested, and I can > take care of the shipping costs. > A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and touch it.... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 6 12:27:18 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 13:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Dave Wade wrote: > On 06/08/2012 15:00, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 8/6/12 4:21 AM, Peter Van Peborgh wrote: >>> Guys, >>> I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM 7090 >>> and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! >>> This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) >>> and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in >>> 1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. >>> It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel >>> printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. >>> I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a lot >>> of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w >>> documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes >>> of mixed content and some card trays of mixed content. >>> Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport >>> will be a challenge, but surmountable! >>> >> >> The Computer History Museum in California is interested, and I can take >> care of the shipping costs. >> > > A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and touch > it.... In this case, is it important for you to see and touch the physical documentation? Al and the CMH do a wonderful job of making docs available to us in electronic format. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 6 12:28:48 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 13:28:48 -0400 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/08/12 11:44 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > ... > Unix choose 32-bit integers, counting seconds since 1970. Also a rather > restricted range, and yes, it will run out in 2038, or something like The 32 bit representation does. $ date -r `echo '2^31-1'|bc` Mon 18 Jan 2038 22:14:07 EST Breaking many utilities: $ date -r `echo '2^31'|bc` Fri 13 Dec 1901 15:45:52 EST But most Unixes now use a 64 bit representation, I believe. This email quoted at top of this page is hilarious. http://maul.deepsky.com/~merovech/2038.html --T > that (someone else can look up the specifics, it's widespread, and > simple to calculate yourself if you want to). > However, it was a reasonable choice for Unix when initially done on a > PDP-11. >... From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 6 12:33:24 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 10:33:24 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/12 9:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and touch it.... > The documents will be scanned, the tapes and cards read. This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 13:09:03 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:09:03 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5020083F.4020700@gmail.com> On 06/08/2012 18:33, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/6/12 9:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and >> touch it.... >> > > The documents will be scanned, the tapes and cards read. > This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. > > In that case can ask the UK TNMOC why I should continue to support them if they can't do a simple task like this, surely they are the UK National Museum, they should be able to make this stuff available. I also do think that its important to be able to physically see some artifacts. There is more to Computer History than software and hardware There are things that physical objects such as a trolley of IBM hardware manuals, or a reel of 9-track tape, or a box of cards conveys that you don't get from scans to PDF or from Reading the cards in. That's why Museums such as MOSi have article handling areas where you can handle objects. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 12:34:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 18:34:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Repairing a Laserjet (from II to 4000) In-Reply-To: <501E7F64.40906@gmail.com> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Aug 5, 12 10:12:52 am Message-ID: > > Hmm. It looks to me like the metal with the black goo on it (which is > scraped off with a razor in the video) once had a piece of thin foam > glued to it. > Like many things made out of that type of foam, (i.e. keytronic > keyboards, and the anti-noise foam inside certain dec, sun, and other > older machines), the foam has turned into sticky goop after a number of > years (and probably exposure to ozone inside the printer), causing the > solenoid to stick. > Just a guess, since I don't have one of those nearby to take apart. I've had a rather more unpleased problem recently with such foam. It was used in some 1970s SLR cmaeras to cushion the pentaprism retainer. And it appears that whatever it decays into will attack the silvering on the prism. I've got a couple of cmaers where this has occured (the latest was an Alympos OM1 :-(). Certainyl somethign to look for if you colelct old cameras or indeeed anything else where said foam is used on clamps, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 12:36:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 18:36:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Aug 5, 12 12:46:04 pm Message-ID: > But wood has real feel to it, life that other materials do not. > This is classic comp talk, so lets update to the 20th century. I guess I am strange, but I don;'t much like wood as a material. I'd much prefer a set of Napier's Bones in metal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 13:09:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 19:09:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Aug 6, 12 10:42:31 am Message-ID: > So true. I can't tell the number of times that I repaired my parent's TV > set. It regularily killed the HOT about once every two years. I've tried > many things in order to prevent this (assumed a poor circuit design, after > all, the poor BD508 has to provide enough power for a 90cm CRT). I > replaced all suspect components (HOT driver IC, flyback, cascade), but > still, it blew (i.e. shorted C-E) after some time. One day, I had the idea > to suspect not an electronic component, but think it might be something > different. I had a deeper look at the isolating mica piece between the HOT > and the chassis. There was nothing visible, but nonetheless I replaced it ALthought I hate ;shotgun debugging' as you well know, I gernally change the mica insulator when I fit a new transistor. The otehr common cause of problems are dry joints in the area. They will work find and then open at just the wrong time to blow the tranistor. A good resodler sesssion helps. > with a modern isolating silicone part. Since then, no more failing HOT. > So my guess is that the mica became somehow sensible to high voltage > differences and sometimes shorted the collector to the chassis. > For now, the TV's running fine (it's 25 years old now). Ah, a relatively new TV... Some devices, particularly SMPSUs, get round the problem of mica washere brakedown by conencitng the heatsink to the collactor on the PCB. This has the mild disadvantage that said heatsink is then live -- very. Do not touch random heatsinks in SMPUS circuits if you want to stay in this world... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 12:44:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 18:44:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <501E7293.31531.132B739@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 5, 12 01:18:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Aug 2012 at 18:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Aluminium : Farily cheap, Soft, and fifficult to machine well, it > > 'clogs' the cutting tools > > My least favorite utility metal. And mine. It has uses, but it's not one I use if I don't have good reason to. > > > Mild steel : Cheapest of the lot. Harder than brass or aluminium, but > > still not hard to work. Worst problem is that it rusts far too quickly > > On the other hand, plating (especially electroless nickel( is > inexpensive and extremely durable. True, but that's one more operation to do. Some finsing methods slightly alterh the dimensions of the part, this may not matter (it wouldn't here). but it might. Actually, electroplating is not that hard to do at home. The main enemy of all plating processis is grease o nthe surface, of course. > > > Stainless steel : More expensive than mild steel or aluminium, but > > chealper than brass. A hard mataerial, but not difficult to machine if > > you have sharp tools. I like it > > See my comment about PVD coating--very sexy. > > > Brass. Most expensive of the common materials. If you pick a > > 'machining brass' like CZ121, it is bautiful stuff to work. I'd use it > > a lot more if I could afford it. But it does tarnish in air. > > I like brass, both for the ease of working and its heft. Finishing So do I. Of course there are many differnet brasses and not all machine nicely, but if ouu pick one that does it's a joy to work. The swarf comes off as a find dust [1] it doesn't clog anything. [1] This can be a problem. That dust flies. Everywhere. Not only do you want ot keep it out of anything electical (it is conductive, after all), but also out of your eyes. A bit of steel swarf can be removed wtih a magnet, brass cannot and might involve a painful trip to the local A&E department. After which you invest in goggles... > is easy--there are lots of plating choices, or just give it a coat of > clear epoxy lacquer. It's also available in a wide variety of > shapes. Keeps the old-timey feel of things. > > There are also bronzes and copper, as well as exotics, such as > palladium, silver or gold if money is no object. I'd steer clear of Pure gold is far too soft for most uses (apart from being too expesnive). You cna of course plate such metals onot a base metal object, but in genral the chemicals involved are nasty to say the least (AFAIK there is no reliable gold plating process that doesn't involve cyanides). > magnesium and titanium--they require special techniques for working > and the swarf is highly flammable. You do _not_ want a magnesium alloy object ingniting when you are machining it. It is almost impossible to extinguish. Steer clear unless thjere are very good reasons for needing such metals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 12:48:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 18:48:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Aug 5, 12 10:47:11 pm Message-ID: > > Aluminum needs a cutting fluid to prevent galling. If you don't have > commercial stuff, turpentine works very well. Sure. But even with the libricant, it is still less pleasant to work than other metals. -tony From colineby at isallthat.com Mon Aug 6 13:20:17 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:20:17 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> Message-ID: I can only speak for myself as a volunteer at TNMOC but I personally think this kind of material is so important for documenting and demonstrating the evolution of computer use in its first generation. I would gladly support and sponsor the re-homing of this collection. Please permit me to elaborate... TNMOC is particularly and uniquely placed, even in relation to CHM to demonstrate and educate on first generation computing. We've rebuilt a Colossus. We are restoring the WITCH, and we're now planning to host a recreation of EDSAC. We are already displaying artifacts for EDSAC II, LEO II, Atlas, etc. The growth and development of these domestic companies did not take place in a vacuum and I would say we are still weak on IBM and UNIVAC. Their installations in the UK we a significant part of history computing and computing applications in Europe. There's no context to Ferranti and LEO until you include the wider story of first/second generation computer use. This collection, ! from what little I can glean is most deserving of preservation, not just manuals and technology descriptions, but all the contextual information of how these companies operated, what software was actually created, and how these relationships evolved over time. If I may, please let me intercede on dear old TNMOC's behalf, and offer assist however I can. Peter Van Peborgh wrote: >Guys, > >I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM >7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! > >This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) >and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in >1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. > >It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel >printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. > >I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a >lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w >documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes of mixed >content and some card trays of mixed content. > >Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport >will be a challenge, but surmountable! > >The stuff will be available in the first week of September. Any >sensible offers will be considered. It might go on eBay but I will wait >until you guys respond first. > >Kind regards, > >peter vp >|| | | | | | | | | >Peter Van Peborgh >62 St Mary's Rise >Writhlington Radstock >Somerset BA3 3PD >UK >01761 439 234 >|| | | | | | | | | -- Colin From colineby at isallthat.com Mon Aug 6 13:27:28 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:27:28 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> Al, I'm a fan but I have to say you are qi quite wrong to suggest documents won't be adequately archived anywhere but CHM. It simply isn't so. Al Kossow wrote: >On 8/6/12 9:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and >touch it.... >> > >The documents will be scanned, the tapes and cards read. >This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. -- Colin From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 13:31:52 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:31:52 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50200D98.8020701@gmail.com> On 06/08/2012 18:33, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/6/12 9:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and >> touch it.... >> > > The documents will be scanned, the tapes and cards read. > This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. > > Al, I gather you have some IBM1620 software on cards. Any chance of that being scanned and made available? -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 13:37:25 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:37:25 +0200 Subject: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour Message-ID: I'm noticing something on my PDP-11/84 that I can't explain. I've "repaired" the broken power-supply by partially replacing it (http://flic.kr/p/cKTBn7). The 11/84 runs fine now, except that it won't boot if I put the Unibus terminator (M9302) in. Without the terminator, it works fine, and I can access controllers on the Unibus. According to the manual, however, an M9302 was part of the basic package. I'm seeing this behavior with two different M9302 modules, as well as with two different Unibus adapters. Any explanation welcome... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 6 13:41:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 19:41:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5020083F.4020700@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at Aug 6, 12 07:09:03 pm Message-ID: > In that case can ask the UK TNMOC why I should continue to support them > if they can't do a simple task like this, surely they are the UK > National Museum, they should be able to make this stuff available. THis is the main reason why I have 'issues' with museums. Of course the only museums I've had close dealings with are those in the UK. I will happily state that Al and his colleages do a wonderful job in preserving and sharing docuemtnation and software. My comments are not directed to him, his organisation, or any similar organisation. But IMHO the purpose of a museum is to make artefacts and related material 'available' Most UK museums fail to do this. THey seem to think that if they have na artefact than nobody else should have one. Heck, a lot of UK museums prohibit photography for various bogus reasons [1] meaning they're a less-than-useful reference source. If they have docuemtnation, you can be sure it's impossible to refer to, [1] I can understand that flash photography can damage some artefacts. I can understnnd that a tripod can be a nuisance at busy times (but surely they could agree there are non-busy times). Those are not bogus reasons. But darn it, I refuse to beilve that a flash photograph would damage a 400-year-old clock movement. Or a 40 year old computer chassis. I'ce lost count of the number of times I've contacted a UK museum who claims to have some device similar ot one that I am working on and asking if they could proivde inforamtion only to be ignored or to be told 'No way' (in various ways...). Since help goes both ways I have made it my policy not to help UK musuems. -tony From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 6 13:45:13 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 13:45:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Repairing a Laserjet (from II to 4000) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hmm. It looks to me like the metal with the black goo on it (which is >> scraped off with a razor in the video) once had a piece of thin foam >> glued to it. >> Like many things made out of that type of foam, (i.e. keytronic >> keyboards, and the anti-noise foam inside certain dec, sun, and other >> older machines), the foam has turned into sticky goop after a number of >> years (and probably exposure to ozone inside the printer), causing the >> solenoid to stick. >> Just a guess, since I don't have one of those nearby to take apart. > > I've had a rather more unpleased problem recently with such foam. It was > used in some 1970s SLR cmaeras to cushion the pentaprism retainer. And it > appears that whatever it decays into will attack the silvering on the > prism. I've got a couple of cmaers where this has occured (the latest was > an Alympos OM1 :-(). Certainyl somethign to look for if you colelct old > cameras or indeeed anything else where said foam is used on clamps, etc. My experience with that sort of form is that it releases formaldehyde when it breaks down. That may be what damaged the silvering. Another major use for this foam was the IBM PS/2 line. Both desktop and tower cases (especially the tower cases) used large sheets of the stuff for acoustic dampening. With the tower cases such as the Model 60 and Model 70, I would end up scraping the stuff off with a plastic putty knife. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 13:45:39 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:45:39 +0200 Subject: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I'm noticing something on my PDP-11/84 that I can't explain. I've > "repaired" the broken power-supply by partially replacing it > (http://flic.kr/p/cKTBn7). The 11/84 runs fine now, except that it > won't boot if I put the Unibus terminator (M9302) in. Without the Sorry, I just noticed that I used the word "boot" way too losely here. Actually, with the M9302 plugged in, the CPU doesn't start at all (the display stays at "77"). > terminator, it works fine, and I can access controllers on the Unibus. > According to the manual, however, an M9302 was part of the basic > package. I'm seeing this behavior with two different M9302 modules, as > well as with two different Unibus adapters. Any explanation welcome... From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Aug 6 14:02:17 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:02:17 -0400 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My personal favourite is 12L14 steel, followed by a brand of cast-iron called Durabar. Durabar is a little nicer to machine than 12L14, but being cast iron its messy. I do not like brass, the chips spray *everywhere*. Aluminum hasn't given me too many problems with appropriate cutting fluid. Stainless and 4140 are probably my least favourite. They're gummy, and the tool wants to tear as much as cut. Free machining stainless steels, however, are every bit as nice to machine as 12L14. These days when I need a part in steel, it's 12L14 or nothing. I'm not touching 1018. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-06, at 1:48 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> Aluminum needs a cutting fluid to prevent galling. If you don't have >> commercial stuff, turpentine works very well. > > Sure. But even with the libricant, it is still less pleasant to work than > other metals. > > -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 14:04:59 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 15:04:59 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> Message-ID: > I'm a fan but I have to say you are qi > quite wrong to suggest documents won't be adequately archived anywhere but CHM. It simply isn't so. Does TNMOC have a public digital archive? -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 6 14:14:23 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 12:14:23 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5020083F.4020700@gmail.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <5020083F.4020700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5020178F.5050505@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/12 11:09 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > In that case can ask the UK TNMOC why I should continue to support them if they can't do a simple task like this > a reel of 9-track tape They are NOT 9-track tapes, they are 7-track, and there are only a few people in the world capable of reading these. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 6 14:20:47 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 12:20:47 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5020190F.5080404@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/12 11:41 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > But IMHO the purpose of a museum is to make artefacts and related > material 'available' pot, meet kettle Dozens of people have asked for copies of the documents you hoard From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 6 14:34:50 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 12:34:50 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50200D98.8020701@gmail.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50200D98.8020701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50201C5A.2010004@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/12 11:31 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > Al, > > I gather you have some IBM1620 software on cards. Any chance of that being scanned and made available? > http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/1620/1620.zip These were read by the 1620 restoration team when the project was active, and have not been completely cataloged. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 6 14:46:07 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 12:46:07 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> Message-ID: <50201EFF.8080804@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/12 11:27 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > Al, > > I'm a fan but I have to say you are qi > quite wrong to suggest documents won't be adequately archived anywhere but CHM. It simply isn't so. > That isn't what I said. >> The documents will be scanned, -->> the tapes and cards read. <-- >> This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 15:08:11 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 15:08:11 -0500 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50201EFF.8080804@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> <50201EFF.8080804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: what if both museums worked on this project as a collberitive? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 6 15:30:54 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 14:30:54 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> <50201EFF.8080804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5020297E.3010609@brouhaha.com> Adrian Stoness wrote: > what if both museums worked on this project as a collberitive? What if the museum that had a demonstrated commitment to making historical documents publicly available worked on it, and other museums gratefully acknowledged their work? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 6 15:32:00 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 13:32:00 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> <50201EFF.8080804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <502029C0.3080206@bitsavers.org> On 8/6/12 1:08 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what if both museums worked on this project as a collberitive? > That would be great! I'd be happy to take care of recovering media that they can't handle. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 6 15:35:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 13:35:19 -0700 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Aug 5, 12 12:46:04 pm, Message-ID: <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2012 at 18:36, Tony Duell wrote: > I guess I am strange, but I don;'t much like wood as a material. I'd > much prefer a set of Napier's Bones in metal. There are plenty of nice tough antique non-metallic materials that might make good candidates. It's just that they're a bear to handle on the small scale or under very tight supply restrictions; e.g. bone or ivory. But I think we're getting off-topic here. Napier's bones are very simple, shape-wise. Just engraved slips of metal and probably one of the stock shapes available, so quite possibly just cutting, finishing and engraving. Brass engraving has been practiced for hundreds of years, so that would be my choice. Here's an example of some fairly modern stuff: http://www.electrotheremin.com/184cornet_01.jpg --Chuck . From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 6 16:08:11 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Aug 5, 12 12:46:04 pm, <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Aug 2012 at 18:36, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I guess I am strange, but I don;'t much like wood as a material. I'd >> much prefer a set of Napier's Bones in metal. > > There are plenty of nice tough antique non-metallic materials that > might make good candidates. It's just that they're a bear to handle > on the small scale or under very tight supply restrictions; e.g. bone > or ivory. > > But I think we're getting off-topic here. Napier's bones are very > simple, shape-wise. Just engraved slips of metal and probably one of > the stock shapes available, so quite possibly just cutting, finishing > and engraving. Can we talk about dimensions and construction? I was thinking 10mm^2 by 100mm for the normal rods and maybe 30mm x 10mm x 100mm for the square-root rod. Camel bone is easily available in the right sizes for this. A piece of tight-grained hardwood (cherry?) with bone glued on the left and bottom edges would made a good tray. Then there's the question of making a box for it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 6 16:27:07 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:27:07 -0600 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if there is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. Unless, perhaps, Ray Kurzweil is correct about how near the singularity is. Then all bets are off. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 6 17:08:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 18:08:31 -0400 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> On 08/06/2012 05:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if there > is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. Speak for yourself, old man. ;) > Unless, perhaps, Ray Kurzweil is correct about how near the singularity > is. Then all bets are off. ROFL!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 17:17:34 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 23:17:34 +0100 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6 August 2012 23:08, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/06/2012 05:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if there >> is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. > > Speak for yourself, old man. ;) What he said! I'll only be 70. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From colineby at isallthat.com Mon Aug 6 17:21:07 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 23:21:07 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50201EFF.8080804@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> <50201EFF.8080804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1344291667.3381.29.camel@hp0> Al, You have, to my knowledge, husbanded into existence the greatest public collection of this form of material. Again, I lend my hearty thanks to you. Software and document scanning does happen outside CHM. My own current project is an HP 2116. The documentation around that along with the software, has been most readily and copiously available from www.hpmuseum.net. I may be wrong, but I don't believe they are directly associated with CHM, but whoever, and where ever in Oz they are, my hearty thanks to them too. I think my point was to underline that CHM is not the global repository for all computing history, no matter how fantastic a resource it is. There are other threads of the tale being told elsewhere and with different context. TNMOC doesn't currently have a public web-based documentation archive. Perfectly true. We have the old fashioned walk in and look at stuff kind, but I take the point, and understand the value of the virtual one. I know I'm talking out of school (*the thoughts and opinions of this internet troll are completely his own and not to be attributed to TNMoC, et al), but we were certainly planning for one. The grant we sought to gear up for mass scanning didn't come through. We'll keep trying. In the meantime, we've refurbed and build out our archive facilities -- and are cataloguing the current documentation and ephemera collection. We've relaunched out website to allow more contributors to get content on and off it, as well as making plug ins (such as archival access) more readily possible. At the same time we've been pushing ahead with a refresh on collections catalogue management, display refurbishment (new software gallery under construction) and yes, some software and particularly video capture. Our strands of activity twist around a bit over time, but ultimately we're rapidly maturing as an organisation thanks to a vibrant voluteer community and gentle steerage from key association officers. I could not hand on heart say when a tranche of documents might be published, unless I had hand on scanner, and did them myself. As I don't know how many pages and formats involved, all I can do is stand back, such my teeth and mumble something like, 'ooo its a big job'. I also don't know how quickly we might get written clearance from IBM to publish their old documentation -- your arrangements wouldn't cover us in UK law. But I have faith in our community that the emails will get exchanged and it will happen. As great a collection of material as you've published so far, I imagine it will become merely one of many such collections all connected together in a community which Sir Tim called the world wide web. So no biggie if it all ultimately ends up in your hands. Would be nice though if the Brits got to tell a bit of IBMs UK story, actually in a place where British school kid can come to see it, before buying a BBC keyboard key keyring in our shop :). On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 12:46 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/6/12 11:27 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > > Al, > > > > I'm a fan but I have to say you are qi > > quite wrong to suggest documents won't be adequately archived anywhere but CHM. It simply isn't so. > > > > That isn't what I said. > > >> The documents will be scanned, -->> the tapes and cards read. <-- > >> This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. > > > > -- Colin From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 6 17:36:36 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 18:36:36 -0400 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <502046F4.40009@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/08/12 6:17 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 6 August 2012 23:08, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 08/06/2012 05:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if there >>> is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. >> >> Speak for yourself, old man. ;) > > What he said! I'll only be 70. > A good number of 'those alive today' will be around then (handwaves the math). Let's try to ensure life is still worth living... and we don't have to evolve to breathe CO2... --Toby From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Aug 6 17:41:08 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 18:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if >> there is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. > Speak for yourself, old man. ;) I think, over two million years from now, very few people alive today will still be in a position to care about any now-running code. I'd add "and even fewer will actually care", except that I expect that number to be zero, and you can't get fewer than that. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 17:53:44 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 23:53:44 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <03DCA17A915C4829A90B5BE77136EE12@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 06 August 2012 18:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > > On 8/6/12 9:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and > > touch it.... > > > > The documents will be scanned, the tapes and cards read. > This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. > > Al, I never said that this wasn't true, what I said was you that you loose something when you loose physical access to the objects. To me your keenness to acquire them illustrates this, and if you are prepared to ship them 6000 miles you must be keen. In fact, on reflection, its not just a pity, its upsetting and distressing that the best place for materials related to UK computing is in the US. This doesn't make it un-true... However whilst I don't think I can argue over the tapes, (I had forgotten they were 7-track) and I don't know any one over here with a 7-track drive, I would like to mildly disagree on the cards and manuals. If physical access isn't important surely it would be cheaper to scan the manuals in the UK rather than ship them 6000 miles to west coast of the USA. The same with the cards, shipping a USB card reader to the UK would be cheaper and more cost effective than shipping several heavy boxes of cards the other way? Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From lproven at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 18:03:57 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 00:03:57 +0100 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 6 August 2012 23:41, Mouse wrote: >>> Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if >>> there is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. >> Speak for yourself, old man. ;) > > I think, over two million years from now, very few people alive today > will still be in a position to care about any now-running code. I'd > add "and even fewer will actually care", except that I expect that > number to be zero, and you can't get fewer than that. :) Ahahahahaha! Good catch - I had missed that. I will indeed be a smidgen over 70. 70 galactic years, perhaps... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 6 18:12:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 16:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120806160942.O35751@shell.lmi.net> Y2038 is certainly a problem. There are many here who may manage another 26 years. Y2038K, 2038000, or 2086192 hardly seem worth worrying about. Humanity is not likely to manage another 2+ million years. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 6 18:20:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:20:19 -0400 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50205133.5040505@neurotica.com> On 08/06/2012 07:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 6 August 2012 23:41, Mouse wrote: >>>> Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if >>>> there is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. >>> Speak for yourself, old man. ;) >> >> I think, over two million years from now, very few people alive today >> will still be in a position to care about any now-running code. I'd >> add "and even fewer will actually care", except that I expect that >> number to be zero, and you can't get fewer than that. :) > > Ahahahahaha! Good catch - I had missed that. I will indeed be a > smidgen over 70. 70 galactic years, perhaps... Oh yes. Good catch indeed! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From abs at absd.org Mon Aug 6 19:10:46 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 01:10:46 +0100 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 6 August 2012 18:28, Toby Thain wrote: > On 06/08/12 11:44 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> ... >> Unix choose 32-bit integers, counting seconds since 1970. Also a rather >> restricted range, and yes, it will run out in 2038, or something like > > The 32 bit representation does. > > $ date -r `echo '2^31-1'|bc` > Mon 18 Jan 2038 22:14:07 EST > > Breaking many utilities: > > $ date -r `echo '2^31'|bc` > Fri 13 Dec 1901 15:45:52 EST > > But most Unixes now use a 64 bit representation, I believe. Even those on VAX :) $ date -r `echo '2^55'|bc` Sun Jun 13 07:26:08 BST 1141709097 $ uname -srm NetBSD 6.99.7 vax Though... $ date -r `echo '2^56'|bc` date: localtime 72057594037927936 failed: Value too large to be stored in data type Tsk, now there is an arbitrary and completely irrelevant limit :) From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 6 21:06:59 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 20:06:59 -0600 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50207843.2070802@brouhaha.com> Liam Proven wrote: > What he said! I'll only be 70. In Y2038K, you'll be a LOT older than 70. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 23:16:12 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 21:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Aug 5, 12 12:46:04 pm, <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1344312972.82578.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis Brass engraving has been practiced for hundreds of years, so that would be my choice.? Here's an example of some fairly modern stuff: http://www.electrotheremin.com/184cornet_01.jpg --Chuck C: Again I haven't followed this thread from the beginning. You can conduct simplified etching by encapsulating a piece of copper/brass w/packing tape, almost any type will work, and cut out shapes and whatnot w/an exacto knife. Then you submerse it in etchant. Depending on how well the tape/adhesive adheres, and how long you keep it in there, you may have good success. It works and is reasonably precise. But although I know who Napier was, I don't know what is meant by "bones", so I don't know if it's suitable for these purposes. . From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 6 23:42:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 21:42:08 -0700 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <1344312972.82578.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca>, <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com>, <1344312972.82578.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50203A30.20622.2D3F177@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2012 at 21:16, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Again I haven't followed this thread from the beginning. You can > conduct simplified etching by encapsulating a piece of copper/brass > w/packing tape, almost any type will work, and cut out shapes and > whatnot w/an exacto knife. Then you submerse it in etchant. Depending > on how well the tape/adhesive adheres, and how long you keep it in > there, you may have good success. It works and is reasonably precise. > But although I know who Napier was, I don't know what is meant by > "bones", so I don't know if it's suitable for these purposes. Go to WikiP--they've got a nice explanation. You'd want to do the brass etching using an overlay of wax, with the design carved into it. At least when I've had to etch brass, that's the way I've done it. But brass engraving is ever so much more pleasing to the eye than is etching. The lines are crisp and the engraving line itself has a V- shaped profile. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 00:00:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 22:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <50203A30.20622.2D3F177@cclist.sydex.com> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca>, <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com>, <1344312972.82578.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50203A30.20622.2D3F177@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1344315657.10103.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis Go to WikiP--they've got a nice explanation. You'd want to do the brass etching using an overlay of wax, with the design carved into it.? At least when I've had to etch brass, that's the way I've done it. C: That's another method. But you can get your hands all over the taped surface, whereas you might need to keep your distance if it's wax. There are different kinds of wax of course, some much harder then candle wax for instance. But brass engraving is ever so much more pleasing to the eye than is etching.? The lines are crisp and the engraving line itself? has a V- shaped profile.? C: True but it takes a lot more skill. I have seen articles on how to build pantograph engraving machines, but that's really getting complicated. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 00:40:51 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 22:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding mobile radio uP, firmware, etc. Message-ID: <1344318051.27891.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ??? Take for instance older Motorola Spectra and Radius models. These things seem to employ some sort of microprocessor. Questions is which kinds? From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 00:46:28 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 07:46:28 +0200 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:10 AM, David Brownlee wrote: >> But most Unixes now use a 64 bit representation, I believe. > > Even those on VAX :) > > $ date -r `echo '2^55'|bc` > Sun Jun 13 07:26:08 BST 1141709097 > $ uname -srm > NetBSD 6.99.7 vax > > Though... > > $ date -r `echo '2^56'|bc` > date: localtime 72057594037927936 failed: Value too large to be stored > in data type > > Tsk, now there is an arbitrary and completely irrelevant limit :) Does it store the time in the fraction of a D-type floating point variable? ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 7 00:48:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 01:48:30 -0400 Subject: regarding mobile radio uP, firmware, etc. In-Reply-To: <1344318051.27891.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344318051.27891.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5020AC2E.2050107@neurotica.com> On 08/07/2012 01:40 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Take for instance older Motorola Spectra and Radius models. These things seem to employ some sort of microprocessor. Questions is which kinds? I have no idea, but I'd guess 68HC11 or derivatives. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 7 01:07:40 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 00:07:40 -0600 Subject: regarding mobile radio uP, firmware, etc. In-Reply-To: <5020AC2E.2050107@neurotica.com> References: <1344318051.27891.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5020AC2E.2050107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5020B0AC.7000800@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I have no idea, but I'd guess 68HC11 or derivatives. -Dave Or 68HC05. Other vendors would have had a wider variety of choices, but before Motorola spun of Freescale, they would have likely had a preference for using their own components. Typically such products would have used masked-ROM parts, rather than flash, EEPROM, EPROM, or OTP. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 01:22:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 23:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding mobile radio uP, firmware, etc. In-Reply-To: <5020AC2E.2050107@neurotica.com> References: <1344318051.27891.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5020AC2E.2050107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1344320555.97213.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire ? I have no idea, but I'd guess 68HC11 or derivatives. C: Good guess. Forums devoted to Moto VHF/UHF hacking: http://batboard.batlabs.com/index.php?sid=91d63af940a9b1983472f38f5e41b46e From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Aug 7 01:34:53 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 22:34:53 -0800 Subject: regarding mobile radio uP, firmware, etc. In-Reply-To: <5020B0AC.7000800@brouhaha.com> References: <5020ac2e.2050107@neurotica.com> <1344318051.27891.yahoomailneo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <23AD5114BF9.000009CAn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Actually, Both of you are correct. The Spectra uses a 68HC11 in the radio, and an 68HC705 in the control head. The 6811 is used with an external EEPROM for the frequency data, and an OTP EPROM for the program. The Maxtrax radios also use the 68HC11, but the actual model varies; some of the low-end radios have a single, masked-ROM part that does everything; the more high-end units use a 68HC11 with some kind of NV-Ram or EEPROM, an EPROM for the operating program, and another custom chip that supplies more I/O, and memory management. Later radios like the MCS series still use the 68HC11, but also use FLASH memory to make them easily upgradable. The very newest radios I'm pretty sure use 16-bit freescale parts; but I haven't looked at the specifics. . . . OB Classic Computing Bit: You need an old-school DOS computer to safely program the Spectra Radio. > -----Original Message----- > From: eric at brouhaha.com > Sent: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 00:07:40 -0600 > To: > Subject: Re: regarding mobile radio uP, firmware, etc. > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> I have no idea, but I'd guess 68HC11 or derivatives. -Dave > > Or 68HC05. Other vendors would have had a wider variety of choices, but > before Motorola spun of Freescale, they would have likely had a > preference for using their own components. > > Typically such products would have used masked-ROM parts, rather than > flash, EEPROM, EPROM, or OTP. ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails From microcode at zoho.com Tue Aug 7 01:45:14 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 06:45:14 +0000 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <1344291667.3381.29.camel@hp0> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <6d200c19-5c84-4ccc-b2a0-bef19f0a8350@email.android.com> <50201EFF.8080804@bitsavers.org> <1344291667.3381.29.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <20120807064514.GA28942@zoho.com> I think an important difference with Al's work on Bitsavers is that people all over the world are able to benefit from what he does. Real museums that people can visit *are* very important but they reach magnitudes fewer people. A global resource that is available online to people wherever they can access the net is *more* valuable from a practical standpoint. The document and software archive Bitsavers has is useful, not just interesting. And the materials that aren't directly useful today but are historically interesting and important are still accessible to everyone. Any computing museum today needs to make every effort to get as much of their doc and software online as well as in exhibits people can see and touch. Bitsavers is mirrored in many places and is no longer a single point of failure. To me it's an obvious choice for any software and doc. It has become the defacto clearing house for this kind of material and at this point it probably does more harm than good for other sites to start their own collections unless somebody can create a top level aggregator and index over all that. Bitsavers has become *the* place to look and this is a major strength; if things are spread all over the net it's very hard to locate them. Competition will hurt all of us, cooperation will benefit all of us. Thank you Al and everyone else who is archiving software and doc for posterity and who makes it available to those of us in far flung places. -- _ _ ._ _ _ <_> ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _| | ___ | ' ' || |/ | '| '_>/ . \/ | '/ . \/ . |/ ._> |_|_|_||_|\_|_.|_| \___/\_|_.\___/\___|\___. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 01:57:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 23:57:05 -0700 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <1344315657.10103.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca>, <50203A30.20622.2D3F177@cclist.sydex.com>, <1344315657.10103.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502059D1.11451.34F7CE8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2012 at 22:00, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: True but it takes a lot more skill. I have seen articles on how to > build pantograph engraving machines, but that's really getting > complicated. Do it with CNC using a powered spindle. No biggie. Probably the same equipment used to rout traces in a PCB could be used (e.g. LPFK). --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Aug 7 01:59:46 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 23:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation Message-ID: After looking at nice computers at Ames and the Computer History Museum, a though occurred to me: What is the slowest/oldest supercomputer still in operation? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Aug 7 03:40:08 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:40:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/6/12 9:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and touch >> it.... >> > > The documents will be scanned, the tapes and cards read. > This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. I hope that this is not true. We for example do mainly the same as the CHM in archiving documents/SW/media etc. It's just in little Europe so apparently out of focus for most of the people. Christian From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Aug 7 04:50:24 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 11:50:24 +0200 Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5020E4E0.8020305@update.uu.se> On 2012-08-07 02:10, David Brownlee wrote: > On 6 August 2012 18:28, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 06/08/12 11:44 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> Unix choose 32-bit integers, counting seconds since 1970. Also a rather >>> restricted range, and yes, it will run out in 2038, or something like >> >> The 32 bit representation does. >> >> $ date -r `echo '2^31-1'|bc` >> Mon 18 Jan 2038 22:14:07 EST >> >> Breaking many utilities: >> >> $ date -r `echo '2^31'|bc` >> Fri 13 Dec 1901 15:45:52 EST >> >> But most Unixes now use a 64 bit representation, I believe. > > Even those on VAX :) [...] Well, this is not an architecture issue, but a software issue. A VAX might be running VMS, in which case 2038 is not a problem at all, or running some version of Unix, in which case it might be, depending on the size of the time. I could "fix" 2.11BSD for a PDP-11 as well, if I wanted to. It's not that hard to do 64 bit integers on a PDP-11, it just takes a few more instructions... Johnny From lin.jones at tnmoc.org Tue Aug 7 04:03:14 2012 From: lin.jones at tnmoc.org (Jones Lin) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:03:14 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> Message-ID: We would be very interested in having this material for our collection. Kind regards Lin Jones Operations Manager The National Museum of Computing, Bletchley Park, MK3 6EB www.tnmoc.org On 6 Aug 2012, at 12:21, Peter Van Peborgh wrote: > Guys, > > I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM 7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! > > This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in 1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. > > It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. > > I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes of mixed content and some card trays of mixed content. > > Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport will be a challenge, but surmountable! > > The stuff will be available in the first week of September. Any sensible offers will be considered. It might go on eBay but I will wait until you guys respond first. > > Kind regards, > > peter vp > || | | | | | | | | > Peter Van Peborgh > 62 St Mary's Rise > Writhlington Radstock > Somerset BA3 3PD > UK > 01761 439 234 > || | | | | | | | | From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Tue Aug 7 05:21:40 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 11:21:40 +0100 Subject: Fw: To all with interest in IBM 7090 - follow on Message-ID: <79601F8D295543BB81B16A5B82D37B4D@vostro> Guys, Original email attached. Two new thoughts: a.. I do seem to have generated some strong interest for the 7090 documentation, which is good. And some controversy as to who should receive these bits: US or UK (perhaps Australia?). The 7090 was an American invention but this one was used in the UK. Perhaps each of you with a strong interest could make a case to us for receiving this material. The decision of the deceased owner's family, the clearing team and myself to be final. b.. Something which might influence decisions: the materials are paper, metal and plastic. The paper is slightly damp, the metal has corroded in some cases and the plastic has some mould patches. None of which make the material unusable in any way but I thought I must be clear on this point. I should have done so in the original email, sorry. Kind regards, peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Van Peborgh To: cube1 at charter.net ; michaelv at virginiairrigation.net ; henridhosty at hotmail.com ; IanK at vulcan.com ; cctech at classiccmp.org ; aek at bitsavers.org ; wdonzelli at gmail.com ; lin.jones at tnmoc.org ; scmobjectenquiries at ScienceMuseum.ac.uk Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 12:21 PM Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 Guys, I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM 7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in 1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes of mixed content and some card trays of mixed content. Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport will be a challenge, but surmountable! The stuff will be available in the first week of September. Any sensible offers will be considered. It might go on eBay but I will wait until you guys respond first. Kind regards, peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 7 08:12:23 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 06:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if >>> there is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. >> Speak for yourself, old man. ;) > > I think, over two million years from now, very few people alive today > will still be in a position to care about any now-running code. I'd > add "and even fewer will actually care", except that I expect that > number to be zero, and you can't get fewer than that. :) > C'mon Mouse, you _know_ there will be some machine tool running Windows 41 that they just _can't_ take out of service. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Aug 7 08:25:16 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:25:16 +0100 Subject: Fw: To all with interest in IBM 7090 - follow on In-Reply-To: <79601F8D295543BB81B16A5B82D37B4D@vostro> References: <79601F8D295543BB81B16A5B82D37B4D@vostro> Message-ID: Peter, I had to chuckle when I read this. Damp docs?! Yeah a British museum might be prepared for some of that. The big debate will be which method is more approved. The last thing I was doing before heading out on holiday was heat curing sticky video tapes. I still have 1970s umatic tapes in my kitchen showing fungus on the spools. Usually means the binder is one of the unstable ones which absorbed moisture and need (temporary) recured before reading. I can recommend a convection oven and infrared thermometer for that particular issue, along with a retensioning run through a deck. Yes I don't think damp is the worst thing in the world. Different approach for docs, of course but I think we can crack that. Lin will send on the official TNMOC response. But to understand exactly how best we might leverage material for display as well as archiving, please let us have some idea what level of technical illustration and photography might be found in the documentation. And if you can give us a ball park count of pages, tape and card count we, and CHM, et al, might be able to make a more specific case for how we would be able to leverage the material for public benefit. Peter Van Peborgh wrote: >Guys, > >Original email attached. > >Two new thoughts: >a.. I do seem to have generated some strong interest for the 7090 >documentation, which is good. And some controversy as to who should >receive these bits: US or UK (perhaps Australia?). The 7090 was an >American invention but this one was used in the UK. >Perhaps each of you with a strong interest could make a case to us for >receiving this material. The decision of the deceased owner's family, >the clearing team and myself to be final. >b.. Something which might influence decisions: the materials are paper, >metal and plastic. The paper is slightly damp, the metal has corroded >in some cases and the plastic has some mould patches. None of which >make the material unusable in any way but I thought I must be clear on >this point. I should have done so in the original email, sorry. >Kind regards, > >peter vp >|| | | | | | | | | >Peter Van Peborgh >62 St Mary's Rise >Writhlington Radstock >Somerset BA3 3PD >UK >01761 439 234 >|| | | | | | | | | > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Peter Van Peborgh >To: cube1 at charter.net ; michaelv at virginiairrigation.net ; >henridhosty at hotmail.com ; IanK at vulcan.com ; cctech at classiccmp.org ; >aek at bitsavers.org ; wdonzelli at gmail.com ; lin.jones at tnmoc.org ; >scmobjectenquiries at ScienceMuseum.ac.uk >Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 12:21 PM >Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > >Guys, > >I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM >7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! > >This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) >and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in >1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. > >It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel >printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. > >I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a >lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w >documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes of mixed >content and some card trays of mixed content. > >Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport >will be a challenge, but surmountable! > >The stuff will be available in the first week of September. Any >sensible offers will be considered. It might go on eBay but I will wait >until you guys respond first. > >Kind regards, > >peter vp >|| | | | | | | | | >Peter Van Peborgh >62 St Mary's Rise >Writhlington Radstock >Somerset BA3 3PD >UK >01761 439 234 >|| | | | | | | | | -- Colin From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 7 08:40:17 2012 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 09:40:17 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> oldest I have seen run in a production environment is David Smiths IBM System 3 at Dyserv in Columbus Ohio. The other Bob -----Original Message----- From: David Griffith Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 2:59 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation After looking at nice computers at Ames and the Computer History Museum, a though occurred to me: What is the slowest/oldest supercomputer still in operation? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 09:16:24 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:16:24 -0400 Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <1344312972.82578.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Aug 5, 12 12:46:04 pm, <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com> <1344312972.82578.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <046FD28E-2C9C-41C0-B4EB-57BCDC49830C@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2012, at 12:16 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > But although I know who Napier was, I don't know what is meant by > "bones", so I don't know if it's suitable for these purposes. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=napier%27s+bones&l=1 HTH, - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 7 09:54:16 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 07:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <046FD28E-2C9C-41C0-B4EB-57BCDC49830C@gmail.com> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Aug 5, 12 12:46:04 pm, <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com> <1344312972.82578.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <046FD28E-2C9C-41C0-B4EB-57BCDC49830C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 7, 2012, at 12:16 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> But although I know who Napier was, I don't know what is meant by >> "bones", so I don't know if it's suitable for these purposes. > > http://lmgtfy.com/?q=napier%27s+bones&l=1 > \o/ (you can lead a derp to google, but you can't make him think) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Aug 7 10:25:26 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:25:26 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Museums in general and computer ones in particular suffer from 'Iceberg Syndrome' Seventy five percent of what they are you can't see. They are driven to hoard anything they can get their hands on and just let it rot away in storage. They only restore items that they think will attract visitors. Hands up all of those who have made an equipment donation to a museum and have seen it restored and displayed in working condition. Does anybody know of a museum that restores systems to working order regardless of if they will be displayed or not. The only exceptions to this rule seem be Cars and Planes. Every vehicle/plane is usually restored to running condition and they even make a display out of the restoration process. Rod Smallwood ? ?Definition of A Magpies nest: Large untidy structure docorated with shiny items that the bird has found. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: 06 August 2012 18:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 On 8/6/12 9:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > A pity that UK related stuff goes to the US where we can't see and touch it.... > The documents will be scanned, the tapes and cards read. This is more than would occur anywhere else but at CHM. From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Aug 7 10:31:11 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:31:11 +0100 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> References: <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> Message-ID: Now be fair, that wasn't considered a supercomputer then or now. Of course here's where semantics come in. Accepting that Stretch was the first, and the first surviving is likely to be a Cray1, who has one working? TNMOC has a 90s air cooled Cray model which is operational, and an Altrix (not on display), but surely that's not the oldest. There are a number of mainstream early systems like PDPs, 1401s, the Pegasus, etc. are out there but they don't count. How about a large CDC or IBM? Bob Bradlee wrote: >oldest I have seen run in a production environment is David Smiths IBM > >System 3 at Dyserv in Columbus Ohio. > >The other Bob > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Griffith >Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 2:59 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation > > >After looking at nice computers at Ames and the Computer History >Museum, a >though occurred to me: What is the slowest/oldest supercomputer still >in >operation? > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -- Colin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 10:36:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 08:36:38 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> References: , <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> Message-ID: <5020D396.26324.761F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 9:40, Bob Bradlee wrote: > oldest I have seen run in a production environment is David Smiths > IBM System 3 at Dyserv in Columbus Ohio. I'd hardly call a System/3 a "supercomputer". Given the operating and maintenance headaces and the demise of vendors, I suspect the oldest operating one might a massively parallel one from the 1990s. But I'm not sure. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Aug 7 10:55:00 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:55:00 +0100 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net> References: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0799210334914B53AAB4BD2082025A42@MailBox> Beware of old electrolytic capacitors. As a minimum measure the ESR and reform then. If possible replace them. This also goes for the oil/paper/foil type. I had the mains filter caps in my 8/e (1972 vintage) go. They were in sealed cans and I managed to sweat the solder out, open them up and replace internally with modern mains filter rated capacitors and re-solder the cans. ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen Sent: 07 August 2012 15:46 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply Hey everyone, I am looking for a original S100 power supply (transformer, diode and caps) unregulated and 8v/18v/-18v. Looking for something fairly compact (like the one in an Altair 8800). If you have one assembled, or ever piece parts, I would be interested in purchasing it or trading for it. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 7 10:57:42 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:57:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: regarding mobile radio uP, firmware, etc. In-Reply-To: <5020B0AC.7000800@brouhaha.com> References: <1344318051.27891.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5020AC2E.2050107@neurotica.com> <5020B0AC.7000800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> I have no idea, but I'd guess 68HC11 or derivatives. -Dave > > Or 68HC05. Other vendors would have had a wider variety of choices, but > before Motorola spun of Freescale, they would have likely had a preference > for using their own components. > > Typically such products would have used masked-ROM parts, rather than flash, > EEPROM, EPROM, or OTP. I'm not so sure about masked-ROM parts. My Motorola Altair wireless network devices have numerous flash EEPROM chips (soldered PLCCs) on their stacked pc boards. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 7 11:37:50 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 10:37:50 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: In article <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25 at MailBox>, "Rod Smallwood" writes: > Does anybody know > of a museum that restores systems to working order regardless of if they > will be displayed or not. What you're describing isn't a museum; it's a place like "Rick's Restorations" . A museum, like any organization, has a fixed amount of funds and labor. Why would they spend time restoring something that would not be displayed? Time and money spent on a purposeless activity like that is time and money not spent on something that actually matters to the museum. Speaking for myself, I have entered a phase familiar to anyone who has started one of these computer museums: I am starting to actively refuse or ignore certain kinds of items. You can't collect everything and you have to focus on your core mission. Strictly speaking, I have probably already gone too far away from my core mission (computer graphics) in a few instances. The CHM commonly refuses items these days as it already has an extensive collection and most items that are offered are either already in their collection, or aren't a significant enough part of computing history for them to add it to their collection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 11:48:40 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 09:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: napier's bones In-Reply-To: <1344315657.10103.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <501EBF6C.1090002@jetnet.ab.ca>, <501FC817.18131.1163FC0@cclist.sydex.com>, <1344312972.82578.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50203A30.20622.2D3F177@cclist.sydex.com> <1344315657.10103.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120807094552.K62110@shell.lmi.net> C: True but it takes a lot more skill. I have seen articles on how to build pantograph engraving machines, but that's really getting complicated. The flatbed plotters of my youth were certainly robust enough that one could easily be modified to take a small dremel-like device, instead of a pen. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 11:54:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > After looking at nice computers at Ames and the Computer History Museum, a > though occurred to me: What is the slowest/oldest supercomputer still in > operation? What IS a "supercomputer"? (some people define it in terms of speed!) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 12:02:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 10:02:37 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: , <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad>, Message-ID: <5020E7BD.31225.56316E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 16:31, Colin Eby wrote: > Now be fair, that wasn't considered a supercomputer then or now. Of > course here's where semantics come in. Accepting that Stretch was the > first, and the first surviving is likely to be a Cray1, who has one > working? TNMOC has a 90s air cooled Cray model which is operational, > and an Altrix (not on display), but surely that's not the oldest. > There are a number of mainstream early systems like PDPs, 1401s, the > Pegasus, etc. are out there but they don't count. How about a large > CDC or IBM? Is the CM-1 at CHM functional? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 12:07:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120807100559.Q62110@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > C'mon Mouse, you _know_ there will be some machine tool running Windows 41 > that they just _can't_ take out of service. :) Only thirty-something "upgrades" in over two million years??!? Surely it would be at least Windoze 41K From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 12:11:10 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 18:11:10 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: 07 August 2012 17:38 > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > > > In article <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25 at MailBox>, > "Rod Smallwood" writes: > > > Does anybody know > > of a museum that restores systems to working order regardless of if > > they will be displayed or not. > > What you're describing isn't a museum; it's a place like > "Rick's Restorations" . > > A museum, like any organization, has a fixed amount of funds > and labor. Why would they spend time restoring something > that would not be displayed? Time and money spent on a > purposeless activity like that is time and money not spent on > something that actually matters to the museum. > My problem is Museums not wanting to restore systems that are on display. I guess that's the difference between a Computer Museum and a Computing Museum. Many conservationists believe that restoring a machine to working order, and using it destroys its authenticity and reduces its historical significance, whereas to me anything that's not running might as well just be a film set. To me it doesn't help you learn unless it can be seen working. Just like a cotton mill, e.g. http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/quarry-bank-mill/ or the power hall at MOSI http://www.mosi.org.uk/explore-mosi/explore-galleries/power-hall.aspx Computers are about noise, heat vibration and smell. Whilst Bletchley is coming close with its ICL 2900, there isn't really any thing in the UK that captures the feel and atmosphere of a mainframe data centre of the 1960's. I think one of the problems is that many of the museum staff have never experienced this for themselves and don't understand what the visitor is missing from the experience. I really like running the remnant at the Hartree Differential Analyzer at MOSi but I am sure the Museum aren't really happy about it, as every time we replace the integrator cords we are removing a part of history from the machine, even though the cords that were on only date from the 1960s when it was coming to the end of its working life... > Speaking for myself, I have entered a phase familiar to > anyone who has started one of these computer museums: I am > starting to actively refuse or ignore certain kinds of items. > You can't collect everything and you have to focus on your > core mission. Strictly speaking, I have probably already > gone too far away from my core mission (computer > graphics) in a few instances. > My wife thinks I have too many plotters but I don't. She especially hates the DPX-3300 which I love. However I do think my Selectric Electronic Composer was a purchase too far so if any one is interested they are welcome to it. I was hoping to use it as an emulated IBM1130 console built has proportional spacing so I don't think its suitable. I am told it has a minor fault but I have never had the space to test it.... (is it computing or not, not really sure)... > The CHM commonly refuses items these days as it already has > an extensive collection and most items that are offered are > either already in their collection, or aren't a significant > enough part of computing history for them to add it to their > collection. You really have to, although you might, like Bletchley keeps enough parts to allow running repairs of ... > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > > From shumaker at att.net Tue Aug 7 12:16:03 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 13:16:03 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50214D53.3090409@att.net> ok. the challenge has been offered.... let the responses begin! steve Let the gOn 8/7/2012 12:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > >> After looking at nice computers at Ames and the Computer History Museum, a >> though occurred to me: What is the slowest/oldest supercomputer still in >> operation? >> > What IS a "supercomputer"? > (some people define it in terms of speed!) > > > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 7 12:26:33 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 12:26:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Museums in general and computer ones in particular suffer from 'Iceberg > Syndrome' Seventy five percent of what they are you can't see. > > They are driven to hoard anything they can get their hands on and just let > it rot away in storage. They only restore items that they think will attract > visitors. > > Hands up all of those who have made an equipment donation to a museum and > have seen it restored and displayed in working condition. Does anybody know > of a museum that restores systems to working order regardless of if they > will be displayed or not. > > The only exceptions to this rule seem be Cars and Planes. Every > vehicle/plane is usually restored to running condition and they even make a > display out of the restoration process. I have a policy now of /not/ donating computer-related items to any sort of museum simply because of this. I'd rather something collect dust in my own storage than have it be buried forever in a museum's "archive" where it is inaccessible. Locking things away from people who might have a genuine interest in them is imo just not right. I personally own a number of examples of "rare" and historically significant computing technology. Two such examples are a SGI IRIS 1400 [Computer Chronicles, Computer Graphics, 4/5/1984 http://archive.org/details/Computer1984_6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmO0y51_y9o] and a complete Motorola Altair wireless network system. While there are quite a number of IRIS 2000 and IRIS 3000 series systems out there, and as much as I detest using the word "rare" due to widespread overuse, the IRIS 1400 is about as rare as hen's teeth and there are very few examples of these machines left today. My own 1400, serial # 95 (originally serial # 47), was located in the UK from about 1983 to 1998 and was originally used as part of a DC-10 flight simulator. After people learned I had a complete 1400, I got all sorts of email offers wanting to buy it for stupid money, but both then and today, it isn't for sale. I would rather restore it and show it at events such as VCF than have it hidden away in a museum's archives or tucked away in someone else's private collection. My Motorola Altair devices (currently non-working due to an unusually large number of failed/shorted/burned SMT tantalum capacitors) are also extremely uncommon today. Not only do I have a complete setup, but I even managed to obtain the books and documentation with them. These too would be much better to show at events such as VCF than hidden away in a museum archive or stuck behind a glass display case. I actually almost loaned my Altair devices back to Motorola's legal firm as prior art for a patent lawsuit, but ended up not doing so. I was also going to duplicate the books for them but that didn't happen because their legal firm's account number turned out to be on hold...and then I found out that the company who would have copied the books wanted to strip the spiral bindings off and run the old pages though document feeder. My condition for loaning the equipment out would have been that they pay for replacement capacitors (which are expensive, IIRC, replacement parts were over USD $250) and that they were to be installed before I would loan the equipment out. After the fiasco with the documentation, I decided loaning out any of it would probably be a very bad idea. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 7 12:27:02 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <20120807100559.Q62110@shell.lmi.net> References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120807100559.Q62110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >> C'mon Mouse, you _know_ there will be some machine tool running Windows 41 >> that they just _can't_ take out of service. :) > > Only thirty-something "upgrades" in over two million years??!? > Surely it would be at least Windoze 41K Microsoft only lasted to v41. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 12:33:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <5020E7BD.31225.56316E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad>, <5020E7BD.31225.56316E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120807103153.P62110@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is the CM-1 at CHM functional? Does functional and fired up as demonstrations count as "still in operation"? From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 12:38:30 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:38:30 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <50214D53.3090409@att.net> References: , <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net>, <50214D53.3090409@att.net> Message-ID: do hobbyists running cray-1's count? cuz there's a few of those around... > Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:16:03 -0400 > From: shumaker at att.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: slowest supercomputer still in operation > > ok. the challenge has been offered.... let the responses begin! > > > steve > > > Let the gOn 8/7/2012 12:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > > > >> After looking at nice computers at Ames and the Computer History Museum, a > >> though occurred to me: What is the slowest/oldest supercomputer still in > >> operation? > >> > > What IS a "supercomputer"? > > (some people define it in terms of speed!) > > > > > > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 12:40:34 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:40:34 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <5020E7BD.31225.56316E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad>, , , <5020E7BD.31225.56316E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 7 Aug 2012 at 16:31, Colin Eby wrote: > > > Now be fair, that wasn't considered a supercomputer then or now. Of > > course here's where semantics come in. Accepting that Stretch was the > > first, and the first surviving is likely to be a Cray1, who has one > > working? TNMOC has a 90s air cooled Cray model which is operational, > > and an Altrix (not on display), but surely that's not the oldest. > > There are a number of mainstream early systems like PDPs, 1401s, the > > Pegasus, etc. are out there but they don't count. How about a large > > CDC or IBM? > > Is the CM-1 at CHM functional? > > --Chuck Hi I doubt it. From what I heard, no one has any softwareto run on it, even if powered up.Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 12:56:26 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: References: <501FE677.10109@update.uu.se> <501FFED0.7000404@telegraphics.com.au> <502036AB.9010202@brouhaha.com> <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> <201208062241.SAA22847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120807100559.Q62110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120807105515.E62110@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > Microsoft only lasted to v41. :) . . . and they all lived happily ever after. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 7 13:11:02 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 12:11:02 -0600 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: , <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net>, <50214D53.3090409@att.net> Message-ID: <50215A36.7070205@brouhaha.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > do hobbyists running cray-1's count? cuz there's a few of those around... There are hobbyists running later Crays, but I don't think there are any running actual Cray-1 hardware. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 7 13:20:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 12:20:57 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: In article , Tothwolf writes: > I have a policy now of /not/ donating computer-related items to any sort > of museum simply because of this. Not all museums are the same. For instance, Living Computer Museum and my Computer Graphics Museum have a very different sort of mission than that of the Computer History Museum. The CHM is attempting to preserve artifacts into the distant future. The LCM and CGM are attempting to create living exhibits with working hardware. The two missions are complimentary and neither one is "right" or "wrong". The Smithsonian doesn't let the general public touch stuff in their exhibits, while the Exploratorium explicitly encourages you to touch and interact with the stuff in their exhibits. They both serve different needs as museums. > I personally own a number of examples of "rare" and historically > significant computing technology. Two such examples are a SGI IRIS 1400 > [Computer Chronicles, Computer Graphics, 4/5/1984 > http://archive.org/details/Computer1984_6 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmO0y51_y9o] and a complete Motorola Altair > wireless network system. I'd love to have an IRIS 1400 for the Computer Graphics Museum. For one-off items like that, my plan is that there would be periodic public demonstrations of it in operation, sort of like what the CHM does with it's PDP-1. For more common items like SGI Octanes, the plan is to create an exhibit where people use the actual hardware themselves. All my currently planned exhibits revolve around some sort of digital content creation (image, animation, 3D model, etc.) which are shared back to the Youtube/Facebook/Flickr/etc. social media accounts of visitors should they wish to share. Otherwise, everything created goes into a library of content created by visitors using that exhibit. > While there are quite a number of IRIS 2000 and IRIS 3000 series systems > out there, and as much as I detest using the word "rare" due to widespread > overuse, the IRIS 1400 is about as rare as hen's teeth and there are very > few examples of these machines left today. My own 1400, serial # 95 > (originally serial # 47), was located in the UK from about 1983 to 1998 > and was originally used as part of a DC-10 flight simulator. I have an IRIS 3100 and in about 10 years of collecting, that's the only 1st generation IRIS model I've been able to find. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 13:54:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 11:54:43 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <20120807103153.P62110@shell.lmi.net> References: , <5020E7BD.31225.56316E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120807103153.P62110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50210203.26157.BCD0F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 10:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > Does functional and fired up as demonstrations count as "still in > operation"? How is functionality assured if there's no software? I mean, you've got a bunch of red LEDs... Does anyone have an operational ETA-10P ("Piper")? I think that might qualify as a "supercomputer"... Convex also had some low-end models, but I don't recall the model numbers. And I'm sure there are some Sequent systems kicking around, but that may be stretching the "supercomputer" definition a bit. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 7 13:55:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:55:12 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: , <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net>, <50214D53.3090409@att.net> Message-ID: <50216490.6050102@neurotica.com> On 08/07/2012 01:38 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > do hobbyists running cray-1's count? cuz there's a few of those around... Cray-1s? Who, and where? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 14:58:59 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 15:58:59 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <5020D396.26324.761F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> <5020D396.26324.761F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'd hardly call a System/3 a "supercomputer". It did have FORTRAN! I wonder what kind of a trainwreck that was. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 14:16:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:16:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Aug 6, 12 08:37:25 pm Message-ID: > > I'm noticing something on my PDP-11/84 that I can't explain. I've I';ll try a one-word explamation : 'Grants'. > "repaired" the broken power-supply by partially replacing it > (http://flic.kr/p/cKTBn7). The 11/84 runs fine now, except that it > won't boot if I put the Unibus terminator (M9302) in. Without the > terminator, it works fine, and I can access controllers on the Unibus. > According to the manual, however, an M9302 was part of the basic > package. I'm seeing this behavior with two different M9302 modules, as > well as with two different Unibus adapters. Any explanation welcome... > This is rapidily becomign FAQ for this list... Whenever a PDP11 misbehaves with an M9302 terminstor is fitted, but works without a terminator (or with an M930). then the most lielly problems is an open-circuit grant chain. The grant signals are active high (strangely, since jsut about everythign else on the Unibus is active-low) and are not bussed, they are passed from one device to the next. What should happen is that the arbiter (part of the processor board) asserts the appropriate grant signal in response to a bus request (providing the prority level is high enohgh). Each devive passes the grant on to the next device until it gets to the tdevice that asserted the reqeust i nthe first place (if there's more than one such device then the one nearest the processor does this). This device now esentially has control of the Unibus. As a result, the grant signal should never get the full length of the unibus, it should never arrive at the terminator. But in soem caes (if a device deasserts the request line), it can do. The M9302 has a little logic on it to assert the SACK signal under such contitions, basically telling the arbiter to remvoe the grant. The M9302 then deasserts SACK, the machine carries on with the CPU in control of the bus. The problem comes if there's an open-cuircuit anywhere in any of the grant chains (remember these siganls are passed on by each device, so if yoyu have an empty slot you have to fit a 'grant continuity card' which shorts the grant in to grant out pins). In this case, because the signals are active high, the terminator sees an asserted grant line (things flaot high,or are pulled high by the terminstor) and the M9302 will assert SACK. The CPU can do noting to deassert the grant, it's not sseritng it in the first place, and ven if it ws, the open circuit would mean the terminator would stil lthink it was asserted. So SACK remains asserted, the suystem hangs. There are 2 types of grant continuit card. The later oens are dual-height and go in conenctors C and D. These have a normal module handle and are easy to fit. The older ones are little sqaure PCBs that go in conencotr D only with the traces towards the /unibus out' end of the backplane. These conenct the 4 bus grarant signals only./ The nonprocessor grant (DMA grant) is on slot C, pins CA1 and CB1. and is completed by a wire-wrapped jumper on the back of the backplane. Of course a faulty device in the system could be forcing a grant to be assertted when it shouldn't be, but this is less likely So : Check there's a grant contiuity card in every empty SPC/MUD slot. Check the NPG jumpers are fitted if necessary. For each device card, check there';s a bus priority jumper plug fitted and that it's making contact (the grants pass throug this too). Check there's the NPG jumper on the backplane if the device doesn't do DMA. If you can't fidn the fault,. start at the terminator. Find out (logic probe) which grant is assserted. And work abck form there. Where is it not being passed on correctly? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 14:26:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:26:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5020190F.5080404@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 6, 12 12:20:47 pm Message-ID: > > But IMHO the purpose of a museum is to make artefacts and related > > material 'available' > > pot, meet kettle > > Dozens of people have asked for copies of the documents you hoard OK.... 1) I do not claim to run a 'museum' (and nor do most people here). I do not think it's reasonable to expect private collectors to make all their stuff aviaalbe. But museums enjoy rathe more beneifts than private collectorsm and I regard making stuff avaialble to be part of their job. 2) If you ask me nicely for just about any manual/schematic/etc that I have (and can find), I iwll make a copy of it when time permits. If it's just a couple of sheets goignt somebody in the UK, I'll jsut do it (please son't all ask for stuff :-)). if there are significant costs involved (lots of sheets, overseas shipping, then we come to some arrangement. 3) If I didn't approve of making stuff availalbe, why woold I let hpmusuem.net (and indeed bitsavers) distribute stuff that I had produced? Ditto for the HPCC Scheamtics CD. YEs, you have to buy it, but it's not expensicve, and I don't see one penny (cent, whatever) of that money. Note that in many cases, if you wanted to distribute said diagrams for the desktops (sorry, I have agreeded with HPCC that as that's a 'handhelds club' the only wat ot get the schemnaitcs for the handhelds is to buy the CD) then if you ask me nicely I am likely to grant permission 4) On several occasions I haev sent you (Al) ROM images, commented source listings, etc and just been ignored. If you don't like the way I sent them (.tar.gz file as a mime attachment) or don't like Intel hex, or couldn't work out what machien they were from, then you could ahve asked me. As it is, Iv'e stopped bothering to send them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 14:29:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:29:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Y2038K - Re: Dates In-Reply-To: <5020405F.6090207@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 6, 12 06:08:31 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/06/2012 05:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Fortunately the Y2038K problem mentioned in the subject line, if there > > is one, is unlikely to be relevant to anyone alive today. > > Speak for yourself, old man. ;) Er, the Y2038 problem is likely to affect many of us (we run old unix machines wit ha 32 bit time_t) but I doubt any of us will be around in Y2038K (year 2038000) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 14:56:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:56:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 7, 12 04:25:26 pm Message-ID: > > Museums in general and computer ones in particular suffer from 'Iceberg > Syndrome' Seventy five percent of what they are you can't see. That strikes me as a low estiamte. > > They are driven to hoard anything they can get their hands on and just let > it rot away in storage. They only restore items that they think will attract > visitors. I have a book on clock repair which starts out by saying that just about the worst thing you can do with an old clock (not a'famous maker') is tyo give it to a museum where it will never tick again. FWIW, I did not write said book, and I read it after I had formed my own simialr views... > Hands up all of those who have made an equipment donation to a museum and > have seen it restored and displayed in working condition. Does anybody know I've dontated a few artefacts and regretted it .They were never displayed, certainly never restored. In fact they were probably lost. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 7 14:32:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:32:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <1344291667.3381.29.camel@hp0> from "Colin Eby" at Aug 6, 12 11:21:07 pm Message-ID: > TNMOC doesn't currently have a public web-based documentation archive. > Perfectly true. We have the old fashioned walk in and look at stuff > kind, but I take the point, and understand the value of the virtual one. Is it genuinely possible of j-rnadom-public to 'walk in and look up stuff'? My expeirience is some years old, I admit, but I certainly could never get a look at anything. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:03:42 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:03:42 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <5020D396.26324.761F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> <5020D396.26324.761F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: When I was cleaning out CyberResources maybe three years back, the e-recycler he was using received the power supplies from a Cray X/MP from Canada. He thought the rest of the machine was still in Canada, but doomed. It may have been an operational machine at the time. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:06:16 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:06:16 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> Message-ID: > How about a large CDC or IBM? There are still Cyber 960s (in very small amounts). The CDC water machines are out of service. That is, until one pops up out of the mist... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:08:09 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:08:09 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <50215A36.7070205@brouhaha.com> References: <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net> <50214D53.3090409@att.net> <50215A36.7070205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > There are hobbyists running later Crays, but I don't think there are any > running actual Cray-1 hardware. And running Cray-1s do not stay running very long. They were actually not very reliable. -- Will From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Aug 7 09:45:31 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 09:45:31 -0500 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply Message-ID: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net> Hey everyone, I am looking for a original S100 power supply (transformer, diode and caps) unregulated and 8v/18v/-18v. Looking for something fairly compact (like the one in an Altair 8800). If you have one assembled, or ever piece parts, I would be interested in purchasing it or trading for it. From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Aug 7 10:57:18 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 10:57:18 -0500 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues Message-ID: <50213ADE.9080800@comcast.net> Hey everyone, I ma repairing a Sun 100U computer, and am having some issues I would love some help with. I am using a bwtwo video card with the Sun 100U CRT (its a 17" HD B&W phillips CRT). I am getting an image showing a successful boot, but I am getting a split double image (like split screen but the same image on both sides). Any ideas what is causing this, a frequency issue? Any jumpers/settings on the video card which may inadvertently cause this? Could it be a CRT issue? From alex at cheltscum.co.uk Tue Aug 7 11:25:52 2012 From: alex at cheltscum.co.uk (Alex Melt) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 17:25:52 +0100 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <0799210334914B53AAB4BD2082025A42@MailBox> References: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net> <0799210334914B53AAB4BD2082025A42@MailBox> Message-ID: <654DF9C6-A908-4754-B4B7-B33C01B6F42D@cheltscum.co.uk> Hi all, Related, is there a generally recommended guide for bringing up old PSUs? Cheers Alex On 7 Aug 2012, at 16:55, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > > Beware of old electrolytic capacitors. > As a minimum measure the ESR and reform then. > If possible replace them. > > This also goes for the oil/paper/foil type. > I had the mains filter caps in my 8/e (1972 vintage) go. > They were in sealed cans and I managed to sweat the solder out, open them up > and replace internally with modern mains filter rated capacitors and > re-solder the cans. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Nick Allen > Sent: 07 August 2012 15:46 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply > > Hey everyone, I am looking for a original S100 power supply > (transformer, diode and caps) unregulated and 8v/18v/-18v. Looking for > something fairly compact (like the one in an Altair 8800). If you have > one assembled, or ever piece parts, I would be interested in purchasing > it or trading for it. > > > From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Aug 7 14:20:00 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:20:00 -0500 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <50213ADE.9080800@comcast.net> References: <50213ADE.9080800@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50216A60.20802@comcast.net> Here is a photo of the issue: https://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/Sun1Computer?authkey=Gv1sRgCIbH_7Hv0betKw#5774013074360649282 On 8/7/2012 10:57 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Hey everyone, I ma repairing a Sun 100U computer, and am having some > issues I would love some help with. I am using a bwtwo video card > with the Sun 100U CRT (its a 17" HD B&W phillips CRT). I am getting > an image showing a successful boot, but I am getting a split double > image (like split screen but the same image on both sides). Any ideas > what is causing this, a frequency issue? Any jumpers/settings on the > video card which may inadvertently cause this? Could it be a CRT issue? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:18:46 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:18:46 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <03DCA17A915C4829A90B5BE77136EE12@G4UGMT41> References: <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <03DCA17A915C4829A90B5BE77136EE12@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: > In fact, on reflection, its not just a pity, its upsetting and distressing > that the best place for materials related to UK computing is in the US. This > doesn't make it un-true... Realize that the USA is a very big place, and those of us on the East Coast...well, CHM might as well be in he UK. No, I can not visit every other week, as I wish I could. At best, I roadtrip many thousands of miles once a year and see CHM for just a day or two. But then again, I am a nut. And yes, all that DEC and IBM and DG and Univac and Interdata iron was mostly born in East Coast stables. But, for software and document preservation, CHM is a established success - one that other computer museums have not matched. (and Wild Hare!) -- Will From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 7 15:20:28 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 15:20:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Richard wrote: > Tothwolf writes: > >> I personally own a number of examples of "rare" and historically >> significant computing technology. Two such examples are a SGI IRIS 1400 >> [Computer Chronicles, Computer Graphics, 4/5/1984 >> http://archive.org/details/Computer1984_6 >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmO0y51_y9o] and a complete Motorola Altair >> wireless network system. > > I'd love to have an IRIS 1400 for the Computer Graphics Museum. For > one-off items like that, my plan is that there would be periodic > public demonstrations of it in operation, sort of like what the CHM > does with it's PDP-1. I never sought out to collect a 1400, it just found me at the right time and I had the means to haul it away. The manuals and boot tape (QIC format) turned up later and I went back to pick those up as well. > For more common items like SGI Octanes, the plan is to create an > exhibit where people use the actual hardware themselves. All my > currently planned exhibits revolve around some sort of digital content > creation (image, animation, 3D model, etc.) which are shared back to > the Youtube/Facebook/Flickr/etc. social media accounts of visitors > should they wish to share. Otherwise, everything created goes into a > library of content created by visitors using that exhibit. To me at least, the Octane seems more "uncommon" than the 4D series... I own 5 different models of 4D series machines, including one which is housed in a large brown rack (all 5 machines came from the same place), yet I've never seen an Octane in person. >> While there are quite a number of IRIS 2000 and IRIS 3000 series systems >> out there, and as much as I detest using the word "rare" due to widespread >> overuse, the IRIS 1400 is about as rare as hen's teeth and there are very >> few examples of these machines left today. My own 1400, serial # 95 >> (originally serial # 47), was located in the UK from about 1983 to 1998 >> and was originally used as part of a DC-10 flight simulator. > > I have an IRIS 3100 and in about 10 years of collecting, that's the > only 1st generation IRIS model I've been able to find. The 1x00, 2x00 and 3x00 used the same deskside chassis, so the average person just looking at the exterior of the computer wouldn't see much difference between them. You 3100 being complete and fairly well populated with boards might actually make a better working demonstration than an earlier machine such as the 1400. The real challenge with my 1400 I think will be the hard drive. I pretty much put my 1400 project aside when I discovered that the V170 hard drive's head lock solenoid was stuck because I just don't have the means to service the drive (oddly enough, the drive shows signs of previous service work). A number of other things still still need to be done to my 1400 too, including replacing the rubber roller in the QIC tape drive, replacing the 240V muffin fans with 120V fans so it can be converted back to 120V, and replacing the electrolytics in the monitor (the monitor was barely readable ~10 years ago, so I know it is going to be much worse now). Another issue I noticed was the mouse cable. For whatever reason the outer insulation began to break down and crumble after the 1400 was removed from the controlled environment computer room it had been living in. I suspect I'll have to repair it with heatshrink tubing. This is of course all in addition to the other repairs I've already made. Most museums would never even consider making the repairs that this IRIS 1400 requires to get it fully functional. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 15:29:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 13:29:04 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: , <5020D396.26324.761F4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <50211820.11785.113356E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 15:58, William Donzelli wrote: > > I'd hardly call a System/3 a "supercomputer". > > It did have FORTRAN! I wonder what kind of a trainwreck that was. Well, so did the 1401 and 1620. Supercomputers only if you were on a controlled substance, I guess. Uniprocessor supercomputers had the problem that they were very much bleeding-edge affairs, with little thought given to maintenance or resource consumption. Parts were often custom fab, assemblies could be hell on wheels to service. Wasn't the MTTR for "Bubbles" something like 8 hours? I know it was very high for the ETA-10 also. I suspect the number of still-in-use 80s uniprocessor supercomputers would probably be a close match to the number of extant Saxpy Matrix- 1s. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:33:01 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:33:01 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: > Museums in general and computer ones in particular suffer from 'Iceberg > Syndrome' Seventy five percent of what they are you can't see. > > They are driven to hoard anything they can get their hands on and just let > it rot away in storage. They only restore items that they think will attract > visitors. Yes, there are some museums like this (railroad museums - I am pointing at YOU), with donations turning into mildew and rust, but please do not assume they are all like that. Many technical museums are very good stewards of their artifacts. On the other hand, today I was cleaning out a basement of another ham and engineer - this one worked on various important military projects, including Honest John and Nike Hercules - and the mold crept up the walls to about a two foot level. Which means the spores infect everything that does not have a sheen of rust on it, and the documentation held together with mycelium. And I played this game before, about 8 months ago, with the estate of a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist. And many times before that as well... So, who are the better stewards of all this great old technology? And every so often on this I ask how many people have something in their current will for their collections. And every year that number is zero (well, one with yours truly), with the same jackasses saying that "Oh, all my friends have been told what to do if I die", which pretty much means squat. Again, who are the better stewards of all this great old technology? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:35:38 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:35:38 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Computers are about noise, heat vibration and smell. Noise, heat vibration and smell are all about artifact degradation. Artifact degradation is all about pissed off people in the future, because you used the things to death. -- Will From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:36:27 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 22:36:27 +0200 Subject: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:16 PM To: Subject: Re: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour >> >> I'm noticing something on my PDP-11/84 that I can't explain. I've > > I';ll try a one-word explamation : 'Grants'. > > [... snip excellent explanation from Tony ...] I remember working on grants in the 11/84. The 11/84 is very user-friendly, because there is a board next to the CPU that has several DIP switches. Each DIP switch opens or closes the NPR of one slot. So there is no need to count pins on the backplane to find CA1-CB1. Just open/close the switch for the appropriate slot. BTW Camiel, my 11/84 also has an M9302 in A-B of the last slot. - Henk, PA8PDP From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 15:39:52 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:39:52 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: > I have a policy now of /not/ donating computer-related items to any sort of > museum simply because of this. I'd rather something collect dust in my own > storage than have it be buried forever in a museum's "archive" where it is > inaccessible. Locking things away from people who might have a genuine > interest in them is imo just not right. In all honesty, have you every actually ever *talked* with museum staff about this? You will find out that most museums are quite happy about showing things off in the back room. All you need to do is be very respectful and follow the rules, have *some* sort of reason to want to see something, and most importantly, don't be a dick. It is pretty easy, actually. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 16:06:31 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:06:31 -0500 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120807095349.W62110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50218357.4010900@gmail.com> On 08/07/2012 11:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 6 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: >> After looking at nice computers at Ames and the Computer History Museum, a >> though occurred to me: What is the slowest/oldest supercomputer still in >> operation? > > What IS a "supercomputer"? > (some people define it in terms of speed!) Defining "still in operation" might not be a bad idea, either... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 16:16:27 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:16:27 -0500 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> On 08/07/2012 11:37 AM, Richard wrote: > Speaking for myself, I have entered a phase familiar to anyone who has > started one of these computer museums: I am starting to actively > refuse or ignore certain kinds of items. You can't collect everything > and you have to focus on your core mission. Strictly speaking, I have > probably already gone too far away from my core mission (computer > graphics) in a few instances. Do you do anything for the items that you turn down? I've been there myself, and was always worried about things ending up in landfill - some people will make very little effort to find a home for things (as is their right, of course). I sometimes ended up with something I really didn't want, but thankfully I've been lucky and never had much of a problem passing things on to other homes. > The CHM commonly refuses items these days Now I'm curious what their policy is, too. cheers Jules From useddec at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 16:17:27 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:17:27 -0500 Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Henk, I'm not sure about the switch covers, but I have 20- 30 field service spares kits and I think one was for a TU45. I'll look in there when I find it. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > From: "Paul Anderson" > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 7:26 AM > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > ; > > Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity > >> I have two 25 foot lockers of mostly DEC items I would like to sell >> within the next few months. I can ship by the box, pallet, gaylord,or >> truckload. >> >> I do not have a complete inventory listing, but feel free to inquire >> off list. The following is a limited sample: >> >> LA36's, and parts >> LA120's and parts >> Vav3100's- a dozen or so >> 3000's >> 5000's >> 11/780, 785 boards >> 6000 boards >> 8000 unibus options and several thousand boards >> 8A, E, F, M boxes and about 1000 boards >> Various table top LAxx printers and parts >> VT's, monitors and parts >> tons (literally) more >> >> I am not selling any H960's (still need a few) , Unibus >> systems,RK05's, RL's, RX's (except a few replacement drives) or any >> media for the listed drives. I might be looking for a VT05, LA180, and >> a TU10. >> >> Please feel free to contact me off list with any questions. >> >> Thanks, Paul >> > > Hi Paul, > > I know this will not help you getting rid of the big piles, > but I am still looking for the FILE PROT indicator and the > 1600 BPI indicator of the TU45 tape drive. > Those are the bottom two "squares" on the control panel at > the top left side of the TU45 tape drive. > > If anybody has a smashed or defective TU45, and the FILE PROT > and/or 1600 BPI indicator is still intact, or have them in a > drawer, I am willing to pay some money for it/them! > > thanks, > - Henk, PA8PDP From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Aug 7 16:24:25 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:24:25 -0500 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 8/7/12, Fred wrote: >What IS a "supercomputer"? >(some people define it in terms of speed!) ...the obvious question, and one we have been over multiple times. I'm envisioning, but have nothing like the skills to create, a 3 dimensional plot. X-axis is year of introduction, Y-axis is available RAM (or equivalent quick-access memory), Z-axis is MFLOPS or suitable measure of computation throughput [1]. Dots might be color-coded by relative price, adjusted for inflation, to essentially encode a 4th dimension, but one normally correlated to Z-axis. Or one might use color for one of the other possible axes (bit width, I/O bandwidth, etc.). I suspect a surface could be constructed in that plot that would allow one to reasonably define anything above the surface to be a supercomputer, while anything below it not a supercomputer. I'm sure exceptions could be made (Distributed.net? The PlayStation 3 array?) but maybe it would cut down some on the inevitable argument. Does this already exist somewhere? I note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PPTMooresLawai.jpg which is on the way toward what I'm thinking of. [1] Yeah, that's a whole other discussion on its own. And I have totally ignored the question of I/O capability, so there could be lots more axes on the plot. I know, it's not an easy question to answer, no brickbats please! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 16:55:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:55:32 -0700 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <654DF9C6-A908-4754-B4B7-B33C01B6F42D@cheltscum.co.uk> References: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net>, <0799210334914B53AAB4BD2082025A42@MailBox>, <654DF9C6-A908-4754-B4B7-B33C01B6F42D@cheltscum.co.uk> Message-ID: <50212C64.21330.1625E52@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 17:25, Alex Melt wrote: > Related, is there a generally recommended guide for bringing up old > PSUs? It depends upon the type of PSU. Linear PSUs are better brought up with a dummy load with the line voltage being brought up very gradually until full line voltage has been reached.. There's some debate about this, but the old-time radio guys seem to swear by it. As I understand it, the idea is to re-form the oxide layer in any electrolytic capacitors. With switch-mode PSUs, it's generally "apply full power" (with an appropriate load) and stand back, because switch-mode PSUs depend on a certain level of line voltage for operation. Too low and you risk damaging things. ...or so I've heard, --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 16:55:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:55:32 -0700 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <654DF9C6-A908-4754-B4B7-B33C01B6F42D@cheltscum.co.uk> References: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net>, <0799210334914B53AAB4BD2082025A42@MailBox>, <654DF9C6-A908-4754-B4B7-B33C01B6F42D@cheltscum.co.uk> Message-ID: <50212C64.21330.1625E52@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 17:25, Alex Melt wrote: > Related, is there a generally recommended guide for bringing up old > PSUs? It depends upon the type of PSU. Linear PSUs are better brought up with a dummy load with the line voltage being brought up very gradually until full line voltage has been reached.. There's some debate about this, but the old-time radio guys seem to swear by it. As I understand it, the idea is to re-form the oxide layer in any electrolytic capacitors. With switch-mode PSUs, it's generally "apply full power" (with an appropriate load) and stand back, because switch-mode PSUs depend on a certain level of line voltage for operation. Too low and you risk damaging things. ...or so I've heard, --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 7 17:09:25 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:09:25 -0700 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <50216A60.20802@comcast.net> References: <50213ADE.9080800@comcast.net> <50216A60.20802@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50219215.6030601@bitsavers.org> On 8/7/12 12:20 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Here is a photo of the issue was the bw2 in the chassis? I thought the 100u needed the original Stanford SUN video board (bw1?) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 17:39:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:39:15 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 7, 12 04:25:26 pm, Message-ID: <502136A3.25431.18A6209@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 20:56, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a book on clock repair which starts out by saying that just > about the worst thing you can do with an old clock (not a'famous > maker') is tyo give it to a museum where it will never tick again. > FWIW, I did not write said book, and I read it after I had formed my > own simialr views... It depends upon the museum. For example, there's a local clock service guy who also runs a clock museum: http://conger-street-clock-museum.com/ I asked the owner about the collection and he says that all displayed clocks are in working order. I've gone to him for sections of blue steel mainspring from old clocks for some other projects. Most of the stuff you buy new is really awful stuff made in India. He offered me as much scrap mainspring as I cared to take away. I could certainly see a technology museum where all of the exhibits are kept in working order. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 18:51:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:51:35 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <50214797.7048.1CC9E17@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 16:06, William Donzelli wrote: > > How about a large CDC or IBM? > > There are still Cyber 960s (in very small amounts). The CDC water > machines are out of service. I don't know that I'd call the 180-960 a "supercomputer". It's much later (1988) nd not as fast as a 7600 (1969) The Cray-Cyber folks clain a Cray YMP-EL, which, again, is somewhat questionable as "supercomputer" (1992, 133Mflop/CPU) considering the time. Compare, for example, with a "real" supercomputer from 5 years earlier, the ETA-10 running at 10Gflop. "Supercomputer" to my mind, depends on a the relative level of performance for the time. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 20:23:47 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 21:23:47 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <50214797.7048.1CC9E17@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50214797.7048.1CC9E17@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I don't know that I'd call the 180-960 a "supercomputer". It's much > later (1988) nd not as fast as a 7600 (1969) No, but someone asked about CDCs. -- Will, with two of them From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 7 20:38:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 21:38:24 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <50214797.7048.1CC9E17@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <50214797.7048.1CC9E17@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5021C310.4030707@neurotica.com> On 08/07/2012 07:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> How about a large CDC or IBM? >> >> There are still Cyber 960s (in very small amounts). The CDC water >> machines are out of service. > > I don't know that I'd call the 180-960 a "supercomputer". It's much > later (1988) nd not as fast as a 7600 (1969) > > The Cray-Cyber folks clain a Cray YMP-EL, which, again, is somewhat > questionable as "supercomputer" (1992, 133Mflop/CPU) considering the > time. Compare, for example, with a "real" supercomputer from 5 years > earlier, the ETA-10 running at 10Gflop. > > "Supercomputer" to my mind, depends on a the relative level of > performance for the time. I have several YMP-ELs. This is a muddy area...They were sold as low-cost (~$300K) development machines for development, debugging, and generation of executables for "big" YMP-class supercomputers. As such, they are binary-compatible. It's faster than a Cray-1, and they're aesthetically very pretty. (a hallmark of supercomputers! ;)) Most people (myself included) would consider it a supercomputer. When it was sold, it was considered a supercomputer. There are nearly always "faster" (and what constitutes "faster"?) computers out there. Does that mean that a given machine is somehow not a "supercomputer", because there's another machine out there that's faster? MFLOP/S per dollar? Per watt? Per pound? Per cubic foot? Per coolant loop? Vector length? Vector PRESENCE? Parallelism? But then what is parallelism? (parallel bits, parallel instructions, parallel processors?) This whole obsession with strict definitions and classification, which we slide into with some frequency on this list, is rather silly, don't you think? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Aug 7 20:53:06 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 21:53:06 -0400 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net> References: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5021C682.6040208@verizon.net> On 08/07/2012 10:45 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Hey everyone, I am looking for a original S100 power supply > (transformer, diode and caps) unregulated and 8v/18v/-18v. Looking > for something fairly compact (like the one in an Altair 8800). If you > have one assembled, or ever piece parts, I would be interested in > purchasing it or trading for it. > Where would the PS have to shipped to. I think I have a pull from a TEI or a Compupro case, I have to dig it out. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 21:41:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:41:47 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <5021C310.4030707@neurotica.com> References: , <50214797.7048.1CC9E17@cclist.sydex.com>, <5021C310.4030707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50216F7B.15253.2686F30@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 21:38, Dave McGuire wrote: > MFLOP/S per dollar? Per watt? Per pound? Per cubic foot? Per > coolant loop? Vector length? Vector PRESENCE? Parallelism? But > then what is parallelism? (parallel bits, parallel instructions, > parallel processors?) Allow me to propose a measure--LINPACK. Should run on just about everything and with excellent pedigree. Further, to make it time- sensitive, let's define a supercomputer as a machine that has a LINPACK score at least 75% of that of the most powerful machine offered by any vendor in the subject machine's year of introduction. And AFAIK, all supercomputers eat FORTRAN. The game with supercomputers is to blow away the competition, cost being very secondary. "Budget" versions with substantially lower performance don't count. 75% will accommodate near-misses. So, an ETA-10P doesn't qualify, but an ETA-10 does for 1988. Binary- compatible all. A STAR-1B or STAR-65 doesn't qualify, but a STAR-100 does for 1970. Ditto. A YMP-EL was not the state of the art for supercomputers in 1992. 133Mflops wasn't state-of-the-art in 1982. Maybe 1972. Bring it on... --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Aug 7 21:49:17 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 19:49:17 -0700 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <50216A60.20802@comcast.net> References: <50213ADE.9080800@comcast.net> <50216A60.20802@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Aug 7, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Here is a photo of the issue: https://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/Sun1Computer?authkey=Gv1sRgCIbH_7Hv0betKw#5774013074360649282 > > On 8/7/2012 10:57 AM, Nick Allen wrote: >> Hey everyone, I ma repairing a Sun 100U computer, and am having some issues I would love some help with. I am using a bwtwo video card with the Sun 100U CRT (its a 17" HD B&W phillips CRT). I am getting an image showing a successful boot, but I am getting a split double image (like split screen but the same image on both sides). Any ideas what is causing this, a frequency issue? Any jumpers/settings on the video card which may inadvertently cause this? Could it be a CRT issue? > Horiz frequency issue. i was working for a place a while back that de-tuned sun monitors for macintoshes and for a specific fixed freq video card. for the life of me I don't remember how to reset the freq of the video card or if the bwtwo was capable of supporting different frequencies. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 21:51:50 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 22:51:50 -0400 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <50216F7B.15253.2686F30@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50214797.7048.1CC9E17@cclist.sydex.com> <5021C310.4030707@neurotica.com> <50216F7B.15253.2686F30@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Bring it on... "Page one of the LINPACK report" -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 7 21:56:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 19:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: <0FD18F63DC1E4A0197EB76FA4F1AB00A@W7Quad> <5020D396.26324.761F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120807194930.M77584@shell.lmi.net> > > I'd hardly call a System/3 a "supercomputer". On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, William Donzelli wrote: > It did have FORTRAN! I wonder what kind of a trainwreck that was. FORTRAN hardly a "supercomputer" makes! TRS80 Model 1 had FORTRAN! I personally sold the first three retail copies! Microsoft had delayed it repeatedly; I was passing through the Seattle airport, and Bob Wallace forced that department's hand and got me three copies delivered straight from Microsoft to me at the Seattle airport. 5150 had FORTRAN. Now THAT was a trainwreck! On simple benchmarks, such as an integer Sieve of Erastothanes, it was slower than the 5150 interpreted BASIC! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 23:11:08 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 21:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a keyboard for a Televideo Tele-PC 1605 Message-ID: <1344399068.59640.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> or does anyone know if any other rj11 T* k/b will work w/the 1605. Doesn't hurt to ask. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 23:39:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 21:39:41 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: , <50216F7B.15253.2686F30@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <50218B1D.27728.2D45EC8@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 22:51, William Donzelli wrote: > > Bring it on... > > "Page one of the LINPACK report" Why not? The scores are well documented going back to 1978. The 2011 report: ftp://www.netlib.org/benchmark/performance.pdf Linpack was significant enough that a computer manufacturer tooks its name from one of the tests (the idea was that their architecture was peculiarly suited to the characteristics of the test). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 7 23:45:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 21:45:23 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <20120807194930.M77584@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120807194930.M77584@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50218C73.5962.2D998BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2012 at 19:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > 5150 had FORTRAN. Now THAT was a trainwreck! On simple benchmarks, > such as an integer Sieve of Erastothanes, it was slower than the 5150 > interpreted BASIC! Do you recall who did the FORTRAN? Was it Ryan-McFarland? If so, I can understand the speed. Microsoft F80 for 8080 had pretty decent code generation. I think the FORTRAN for ISIS-II (Intel MDS) came on something like 7 8" floppies. It was BIG. Was there a FORTRAN for the 360/20? --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 8 00:07:22 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 22:07:22 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: <5021F40A.4090406@jwsss.com> The RR museum I'm most familiar with has politics involved that make the current US situation look like a collegial walk in the park. Throw in that it is owned as some of the best are by government entities who believe they know everything, and you get what you mention below. I don't know about the wrangling but at least the CHM isn't government owned. I support them and Al with all I have. When my toys go away someday, hopefully the best stuff will find a home there. A lot of it is equipment which they do not currently have, and I'm not done playing with. Jim On 8/7/2012 1:33 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, there are some museums like this (railroad museums - I am > pointing at YOU), with donations turning into mildew and rust, but > please do not assume they are all like that. Many technical museums > are very good stewards of their artifacts. From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Aug 7 15:28:12 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:28:12 -0500 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <50216A60.20802@comcast.net> References: <50213ADE.9080800@comcast.net> <50216A60.20802@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50217A5C.7070508@comcast.net> Bear is helping me out, and doing a fine job. Disregard my requests, unless you have expertise using a bwone (Sun 1 video card) with a Sun2 CPU card. On 8/7/2012 2:20 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Here is a photo of the issue: > https://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/Sun1Computer?authkey=Gv1sRgCIbH_7Hv0betKw#5774013074360649282 > > On 8/7/2012 10:57 AM, Nick Allen wrote: >> Hey everyone, I ma repairing a Sun 100U computer, and am having some >> issues I would love some help with. I am using a bwtwo video card >> with the Sun 100U CRT (its a 17" HD B&W phillips CRT). I am getting >> an image showing a successful boot, but I am getting a split double >> image (like split screen but the same image on both sides). Any >> ideas what is causing this, a frequency issue? Any jumpers/settings >> on the video card which may inadvertently cause this? Could it be a >> CRT issue? From earl at retrobits.com Tue Aug 7 17:16:47 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 15:16:47 -0700 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems Message-ID: Hi there, I'm looking for contact information for the company that is the current license holder for the DEC-developed PDP-11 operating systems (e.g., RT-11, RSX, RSTS). If you have that info and could send it to me off-list, it would be much appreciated! Thanks, - Earl From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Aug 8 01:19:25 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 08:19:25 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201208080619.q786JPTt019826@ls-al.eu> Earl Evans wrote: > > I'm looking for contact information for the company that is the current > license holder for the DEC-developed PDP-11 operating systems (e.g., RT-11, > RSX, RSTS). If you have that info and could send it to me off-list, it > would be much appreciated! > I wouldn't having this info on the list, to be honest. re, Sander From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Aug 8 01:20:24 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:20:24 +0100 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Earl Evans Sent: 07 August 2012 23:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems Hi there, I'm looking for contact information for the company that is the current license holder for the DEC-developed PDP-11 operating systems (e.g., RT-11, RSX, RSTS). If you have that info and could send it to me off-list, it would be much appreciated! Thanks, - Earl From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Aug 8 01:34:47 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:34:47 +0100 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <654DF9C6-A908-4754-B4B7-B33C01B6F42D@cheltscum.co.uk> References: <50212A0B.3070604@comcast.net> <0799210334914B53AAB4BD2082025A42@MailBox> <654DF9C6-A908-4754-B4B7-B33C01B6F42D@cheltscum.co.uk> Message-ID: <59B75E5522EE42DAB9FD5D0C23142BCB@MailBox> First we must decide if we have a switching or linear PSU. Big, old and heavy with large capacitors and transformers usually idicates linear. If it's linear change all electrolytic capacitors, including the smaller ones on control boards. Check rectifiers for forward and reverse resistance whilst isolated. Look for components that appear to have got hot or are burned and replace. Look for dry joints on circuit boards and where flying leads are connected to tags. Get a Variac and turn up the volts whilst checking for overheating. If you get that far you might want to put some load on and see how the out put looks. Switching PSU's - find a friend who fixes TV's ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alex Melt Sent: 07 August 2012 17:26 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply Hi all, Related, is there a generally recommended guide for bringing up old PSUs? Cheers Alex On 7 Aug 2012, at 16:55, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > > Beware of old electrolytic capacitors. > As a minimum measure the ESR and reform then. > If possible replace them. > > This also goes for the oil/paper/foil type. > I had the mains filter caps in my 8/e (1972 vintage) go. > They were in sealed cans and I managed to sweat the solder out, open them up > and replace internally with modern mains filter rated capacitors and > re-solder the cans. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Nick Allen > Sent: 07 August 2012 15:46 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply > > Hey everyone, I am looking for a original S100 power supply > (transformer, diode and caps) unregulated and 8v/18v/-18v. Looking for > something fairly compact (like the one in an Altair 8800). If you have > one assembled, or ever piece parts, I would be interested in purchasing > it or trading for it. > > > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Aug 8 02:11:52 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 08:11:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1344409912.1469.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello, I think that this information would be interesting for the rest of the list, too. In the near past, several list members (myself included) thought, that Mentec is the license holder, but this appears not to be the case anymore. ? Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Earl Evans An: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Gesendet: 0:16 Mittwoch, 8.August 2012 Betreff: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems Hi there, I'm looking for contact information for the company that is the current license holder for the DEC-developed PDP-11 operating systems (e.g., RT-11, RSX, RSTS).? If you have that info and could send it to me off-list, it would be much appreciated! Thanks, - Earl From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 8 02:45:49 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 09:45:49 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77020313961cde6c4c908566f27302e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Hi there, > > I'm looking for contact information for the company that is the current > license holder for the DEC-developed PDP-11 operating systems (e.g., > RT-11, > RSX, RSTS). If you have that info and could send it to me off-list, it > would be much appreciated! > > Thanks, > > - Earl > Well, Mentec US & Mentec IRL have been bought by Unit4, a Dutch company. No idea who is the current owner tough.... I suppose I could give it a try and call them. If they don't, then it may remain a mystery indeed.... Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Aug 8 03:20:11 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 10:20:11 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <77020313961cde6c4c908566f27302e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <77020313961cde6c4c908566f27302e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201208080820.q788KBBR017917@ls-al.eu> "E. Groenenberg" wrote: > > Well, Mentec US & Mentec IRL have been bought by Unit4, a Dutch company. > No idea who is the current owner tough.... > I suppose I could give it a try and call them. If they don't, then it > may remain a mystery indeed.... > I found Mentec Ireland indeed bought by Unit4, but not US. Where did you find that piece of info? re, Sander From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Aug 8 03:40:54 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 09:40:54 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 7, 12 04:25:26 pm Message-ID: Well what do you know! I thought my radical views would attract some adverse comments. Instead I get agreement from a well known and established collector. As you know I am ex-DEC and therefore concentrate on that make. My goal is to restore back to running order as they left the factory. Whilst many computers and peripherals are well designed and look quite good the essential point is what they can do and have done. It?s the fact that the same machine can be used for a myriad of tasks. This was the key point in Alan Turing's 1936 'On Computable Numbers'. So two identical computers sitting alongside each but turned off are the same thing. Turn them on and one controls traffic lights and the other holds medical records. Therein lies the reason to restore to working condition and not to static display or store them. I cannot see why known hobby restorers are never approached by museums saying 'We have an XYZ123 system in store. If you restore it to working order then it will go on display with a small card saying restored by Joe Bloggs or whoever.' This reverses the donation flow, does not deplete the private collection stock and brings more items into display at little or no cost. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 07 August 2012 20:57 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > Museums in general and computer ones in particular suffer from 'Iceberg > Syndrome' Seventy five percent of what they are you can't see. That strikes me as a low estiamte. > > They are driven to hoard anything they can get their hands on and just let > it rot away in storage. They only restore items that they think will attract > visitors. I have a book on clock repair which starts out by saying that just about the worst thing you can do with an old clock (not a'famous maker') is tyo give it to a museum where it will never tick again. FWIW, I did not write said book, and I read it after I had formed my own simialr views... > Hands up all of those who have made an equipment donation to a museum and > have seen it restored and displayed in working condition. Does anybody know I've dontated a few artefacts and regretted it .They were never displayed, certainly never restored. In fact they were probably lost. -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 8 03:45:45 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 10:45:45 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <201208080820.q788KBBR017917@ls-al.eu> References: <77020313961cde6c4c908566f27302e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <201208080820.q788KBBR017917@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: > "E. Groenenberg" wrote: >> >> Well, Mentec US & Mentec IRL have been bought by Unit4, a Dutch company. >> No idea who is the current owner tough.... >> I suppose I could give it a try and call them. If they don't, then it >> may remain a mystery indeed.... >> > I found Mentec Ireland indeed bought by Unit4, but not US. Where > did you find that piece of info? > > re, > > Sander > mentec.com points to unit4 Unless mentec.com was not managed by Mentec, then I made an error here. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Aug 8 05:05:42 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 12:05:42 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: <77020313961cde6c4c908566f27302e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <201208080820.q788KBBR017917@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <201208081005.q78A5geD017911@ls-al.eu> "E. Groenenberg" wrote: > > mentec.com points to unit4 > > Unless mentec.com was not managed by Mentec, then I made an error here. > Mentec.com was indeed the site. Some research I just did: In february 2007, it turned from "good" old Mentec to a Calyx Group owned company http://web.archive.org/web/20070205074453/http://www.mentec.com/ 2009 and 2010 it was 'Under Construction'. Then in 2011, MentecPlus comes alive at mentecplus.com to which mentec.com redirects http://web.archive.org/web/20110129080046/http://mentecplus.com/ New logo and seemingly a completely new business where nothing notes anything about PDP-11s. MentecPlus indeed is Unit4 since February of this year : http://www.unit4software.co.uk/about/news/art/aid/5674/unit4-invests-in-ireland-acquires-mentecplus. But I'm not sure if MentecPlus is the Mentec we are searching. Calyx doesn't seem to know anything about Mentec when searching their website. re, Sander From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Aug 8 06:33:46 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 12:33:46 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 7, 12 04:25:26 pm Message-ID: Gentlemen, I think you'll find both TNMoC and CHM actively work on restoring and maintaining systems. If we could afford more space for displays we'd display more. We encourage people to volunteer and get involved in restoration both on and off site. As an active volunteer I can tell you we actually spend very little time hoarding for its own sake. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I or anyone else mutters, 'my precious' and attempts to drive folk away from, 'the precious'. If you don't like the way things are done get involved. If your ideas are debated and rejected, feel secure in the knowledge democracy is at work. Please don't rubbish institutions which work with little or no budget, but great heart, to do exactly what this posting claims we don't. At present we're restoring the WITCH, an IBM 1130, ICL 2966, ICL 25, HP 2116, HP 21MX (and peripherals), HP 9845B and probably several more I don't know about. We always have a few BBCs Apples and S-Bus systems ! on the go. We are hosting a group doing an EDSAC rebuild. We've completed an Elliott 903 numerous Atari, Commodore, BBC and Apple refurbs in the last year. And on any given opening day you can see hear and touch several dozen machines. Come to think of it, to say we don't restore and display systems is not only rubbish, it a simple lie. If you want to do restoration work, volunteer at TNMoC. If you want different things displayed, become a volunteer, make a proposal and we make a democratic decision on its merits. Every display we put up means one we have to take down. So it'd better be a good proposal. Whether you get involved or not, do us all a favour and park this hobby horse. It's a phantom steed. Rod Smallwood wrote: >Well what do you know! >I thought my radical views would attract some adverse comments. >Instead I get agreement from a well known and established collector. > >As you know I am ex-DEC and therefore concentrate on that make. >My goal is to restore back to running order as they left the factory. > >Whilst many computers and peripherals are well designed and look quite >good >the essential point is what they can do and have done. It?s the fact >that >the same machine can be used for a myriad of tasks. > >This was the key point in Alan Turing's 1936 'On Computable Numbers'. > >So two identical computers sitting alongside each but turned off are >the >same thing. Turn them on and one controls traffic lights and the other >holds >medical records. Therein lies the reason to restore to working >condition and >not to static display or store them. > >I cannot see why known hobby restorers are never approached by museums >saying 'We have an XYZ123 system in store. If you restore it to working >order then it will go on display with a small card saying restored by >Joe >Bloggs or whoever.' This reverses the donation flow, does not deplete >the >private collection stock and brings more items into display at little >or no >cost. > > >Regards >? >Rod Smallwood > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tony Duell >Sent: 07 August 2012 20:57 >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > >> >> Museums in general and computer ones in particular suffer from >'Iceberg >> Syndrome' Seventy five percent of what they are you can't see. > >That strikes me as a low estiamte. > >> >> They are driven to hoard anything they can get their hands on and >just let >> it rot away in storage. They only restore items that they think will >attract >> visitors. > >I have a book on clock repair which starts out by saying that just >about >the worst thing you can do with an old clock (not a'famous maker') is >tyo give it to a museum where it will never tick again. FWIW, I did >not >write said book, and I read it after I had formed my own simialr >views... > >> Hands up all of those who have made an equipment donation to a museum >and >> have seen it restored and displayed in working condition. Does >anybody >know > >I've dontated a few artefacts and regretted it .They were never >displayed, certainly never restored. In fact they were probably lost. > >-tony -- Colin From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Aug 8 07:47:54 2012 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 08:47:54 -0400 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply Message-ID: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com> I just posted the MITS Altair 8800 Power supply specs with a link to the schematic on my web site, if you went the sensible route and bought something new with the same characteristics the original. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=486 Bill From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 8 07:54:04 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 06:54:04 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: In article , Tothwolf writes: > I never sought out to collect a 1400, it just found me at the right time > and I had the means to haul it away. The manuals and boot tape (QIC > format) turned up later and I went back to pick those up as well. Yeah, sometimes you're just the right person in the right place. > To me at least, the Octane seems more "uncommon" than the 4D series... I > own 5 different models of 4D series machines, including one which is > housed in a large brown rack (all 5 machines came from the same place), > yet I've never seen an Octane in person. Octanes are offered up regularly on ebay. Personal Iris a little less often, but they still have been showing up with some frequency. What is harder to find is the larger machines. Anything that can be easily sent by a parcel carrier shows up with more regularity than something that requires freight shipment. It's been a long while (multiple years) since I've seen a deskside Onyx for sale on ebay. I lucked out that a whole bunch of stuff was being surplussed from Boeing in St. Louis all at the same time: Onyx 2 Reality Monster, Challenge XL, Onyx XL, Crimson, Onyx deskside, spaceballs. > The 1x00, 2x00 and 3x00 used the same deskside chassis, so the average > person just looking at the exterior of the computer wouldn't see much > difference between them. You 3100 being complete and fairly well populated > with boards might actually make a better working demonstration than an > earlier machine such as the 1400. Yes, it's nice to have the "high end" of the line for demonstration purposes, but it's also useful to have a low-end member of the line to represent the range of the product at that time. Also, the 1x00 models were more like terminals and the 3x00 models were more like workstations, so there are other differences besides performance and capacity. > The real challenge with my 1400 I think will be the hard drive. I pretty > much put my 1400 project aside when I discovered that the V170 hard > drive's head lock solenoid was stuck because I just don't have the means to > service the drive (oddly enough, the drive shows signs of previous service > work). Yeah, archiving any perishable bits (PROMs, hard drives, floppies, etc.) is always the most challenging part of any restoration, I think. It's always what's on my mind first before I start doing anything else with a machine. With later SGIs, the hard drives are commodity SCSI drives, so archiving them isn't difficult. > Most museums would never even consider making the repairs that this IRIS > 1400 requires to get it fully functional. Even the CHM has done restoration projects, but compared to the ones they've done so far I expect an IRIS 1400 would be pretty far down on their priority list. For me, it would be high up there as I'm focused on graphics. LCM might do it, but even for them the IRIS 1400 is getting a little far afield of their primary focus (minicomputer timesharing). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 8 07:58:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 06:58:56 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <502185AB.8010104 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > On 08/07/2012 11:37 AM, Richard wrote: > > Speaking for myself, I have entered a phase familiar to anyone who has > > started one of these computer museums: I am starting to actively > > refuse or ignore certain kinds of items. You can't collect everything > > and you have to focus on your core mission. Strictly speaking, I have > > probably already gone too far away from my core mission (computer > > graphics) in a few instances. > > Do you do anything for the items that you turn down? The things I've been turning down are commodity microcomputers that were made in the millions quantity. Either that, or they are things that are already located at a place where other people can buy them. If something truly odd does come by, I've been known to hold on to it so that someone else with a focus on that area can obtain it from me, or I will point other collectors interested in that stuff towards it. A local guy has Data General Eclipse MV/8000 machines. I posted to this list about it, but noone ever contacted me to follow up on it. I posted to this list about the VAX 11/750 that was at The Black Hole and noone ever contacted me to follow up on it; Will Donzelli got it in the end, but people here had plenty of time to get it before him. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 08:45:08 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 15:45:08 +0200 Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Paul, the FILE PROT and 1600 BPI are not switches, just indicators. They look like push buttons though. I hope you can find that TU45 spares kit. I have a TU45 for at least 3 years now, but haven't powered-up yet ... thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP From: "Paul Anderson" Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:17 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: DEC, VAX, items in quantity > Hi Henk, > > I'm not sure about the switch covers, but I have 20- 30 field service > spares kits and I think one was for a TU45. I'll look in there when I > find it. > > > Thanks, Paul > > >> Hi Paul, >> >> I know this will not help you getting rid of the big piles, >> but I am still looking for the FILE PROT indicator and the >> 1600 BPI indicator of the TU45 tape drive. >> Those are the bottom two "squares" on the control panel at >> the top left side of the TU45 tape drive. >> >> If anybody has a smashed or defective TU45, and the FILE PROT >> and/or 1600 BPI indicator is still intact, or have them in a >> drawer, I am willing to pay some money for it/them! >> >> thanks, >> - Henk, PA8PDP > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 8 09:22:35 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 07:22:35 -0700 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> Message-ID: <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. > Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several times on this list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 8 09:42:25 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:42:25 -0700 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 7:22 AM -0700 8/8/12, Al Kossow wrote: >On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >> > >Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several >times on this >list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC > >I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. I get the impression that he seems to like to stay out of sight. I typically forward requests like Earl's onto a Reseller I know (which I just did with his message). I've pointed out in the past that the fact that there is a rights holder needs to be advertised, as a lot of people can't figure out who to contact. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Aug 8 10:37:08 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 11:37:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com> Message-ID: <502287A4.6050309@verizon.net> On 08/08/2012 08:47 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > I just posted the MITS Altair 8800 Power supply specs with a link to the > schematic on my web site, if you went the sensible route and bought > something new with the same characteristics the original. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=486 > > Bill > > its important to note the original MITS-8800 PS was a peice of crap and the 8800A is what you want. I have the pre-A original version and that does not carry more than a few boards before the -8V and +12V droops badly. The transformers and filter caps were too small. Allison From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 11:42:42 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 11:42:42 -0500 Subject: Wanted: IBM 2315 packs In-Reply-To: References: <501BECD1.5060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50229702.1010104@gmail.com> On 08/03/2012 10:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> [1] or functional equivalents to the genuine IBM ones, if any exist; by the >> sounds of it packs from various sources may physically fit, but sectoring / >> disk surface / other details vary. > > Nashua 4414 is an equivalent. Thanks, Will - I'll pass that on, it may generate some useful leads. Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 8 12:39:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 10:39:50 -0700 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <502287A4.6050309@verizon.net> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com>, <502287A4.6050309@verizon.net> Message-ID: <502241F6.5670.71AF64@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2012 at 11:37, Allison wrote: > its important to note the original MITS-8800 PS was a peice of crap > and the 8800A is what you want. I have the pre-A original version and > that does not carry more than a few boards before the -8V and +12V > droops badly. The transformers and filter caps were too small. Thanks for pointing that out! I've sometimes thought that if I pulled my old 8800 down off the shelf and tried to get it going again, the first thing I'd do would be to rework the power supply to make it something less half-assed ("quarter-assed?"). But I guess that would destroy the historical cachet of the thing, so it'll sit around some more. The last time I powered it on about 15 years ago, you could see the AC ripple in the front-panel LEDs. --Chuck From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Aug 8 12:41:19 2012 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 13:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Scanning DS990/1 manuals, schematics Message-ID: <1344447679.22514@dragonsweb.org> These will be available at my site, dragonsweb.org and ftp.whtech.com, and I've notified bitsavers.org also. What's done so far: 2262325-9701 "DS990 System Model 1 Site Preparation and Installation" 2262326-9701 "Model 770 Intelligent Data Terminal Upgrade Instructions to DS990 System Model 1" 2262327-9701 "Model 771 Intelligent Data Terminal Upgrade Instructions to DS990 System Model 1" 2262570-9701A "DS990 System Model 1 Field Maintenance Test Operating Procedures" 993023-9701 "Operating Instructions for Model 770 Intelligent Data Terminal" Scans taken on an Epson Workforce 323 at 600 dpi, 1bit/sample. They need some post-processing, mostly straightening, but I have such a big pile that I'm focusing on scanning them all in right now, and will correct later. The .tifs are there if anyone else wants to start on the post-processing. Also pdfs which make the need for straightening glaringly evident :-) Many, many thanks to Guntis Sprenne for providing these, and my apologies for the delay in getting to them. jbdigriz From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 8 12:45:01 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 10:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Visualize C8000 Message-ID: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> Just landed a nice C8000 with a dual-core PA-8900 CPU for playing with at a nice price, the last and most powerful of the Visualize workstations. I have a CD set of 11i v1 in my stock closet which should do nicely. Any other PA-RISC users onlist? Any gotchas? The last Visualize I worked on was a C3750, so that was a little behind this generation. I just don't have the space for a K-class, tho. 8) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Xerox never comes up with anything original. ------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 12:51:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 18:51:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <50213ADE.9080800@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Aug 7, 12 10:57:18 am Message-ID: > > Hey everyone, I ma repairing a Sun 100U computer, and am having some > issues I would love some help with. I am using a bwtwo video card with > the Sun 100U CRT (its a 17" HD B&W phillips CRT). I am getting an image > showing a successful boot, but I am getting a split double image (like > split screen but the same image on both sides). Any ideas what is > causing this, a frequency issue? Any jumpers/settings on the video card > which may inadvertently cause this? Could it be a CRT issue? This sounds to me like a horizontal frequency issue -- the video card is sending lines at twice the frequency the monitor expects, so each physicla sweep of the electron beam displays 2 'lines' from the video card, next to each other. As to 'could it be a CRT issue', it depends on what you mean by 'CRT'. I can't see how it could be a problem with the evaucuated glass thing. But if 'CRT' really means 'monitor' and includes the deflection circuitry, then it most certainly could be a problem with that. Questions : Should this confgiuration work? Are the video card and moniotor the right ones for htis setup? Has _this_ set of equipment ever worked? Is it possible osmething has been modified, for example the monitor adjusted for differnt scan rates to use it on some other machine? Can you measure the horizotnal syn freqeucny at the monitor connector and compare it with whaty it should be (is this value known)? If it's wildly off, then suspect a problem wit hthe video card or intialisation of same. If it's right. suspect a problem in the monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:02:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:02:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Aug 7, 12 03:20:28 pm Message-ID: > The real challenge with my 1400 I think will be the hard drive. I pretty > much put my 1400 project aside when I discovered that the V170 hard > drive's head lock solenoid was stuck because I just don't have the means to > service the drive (oddly enough, the drive shows signs of previous service > work). Isd this a Vertex V170, a 5.25" wincheser? I know the V150 from my PERQs, evil little things that have various problems. If it is similar to the drive I am thinking of, the lock solenoid is inside the HDA :-(. I asusme you've checked it's getting a voltage across it, and that it's not open-circuit (although what you could do if it was is not obvious). I think you're going to need to make one of those 'clean boxes' that get menitoend here from time to time. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 13:03:54 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:03:54 +0100 Subject: Vintage SCSI drives for sale Message-ID: Starting the big clearout... Thought these might be of interest hereabouts: IBM WDS-3160S 160MB SCSI hard drive http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271033047930 IBM type 661 330MB SCSI hard disk http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271033050365 Quantum Prodrive 210s vintage 210MB SCSI hard drive http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271033044140 Also a vintage Mac but that's probably less interesting. ;-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:07:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:07:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 7, 12 04:35:38 pm Message-ID: > > > Computers are about noise, heat vibration and smell. > > Noise, heat vibration and smell are all about artifact degradation. It depedns. If you're one of these people who thinks a computer is like a piece of fine art, then I guess you want to keep it in the state you got it, never replacing anything, Most museums seem to take this view, even theough the machines, when thek get them, are rarely jsut as they left the factory. Alternatively you can run them. YEs, parts fail, but if you've been sensible, you will know how to handle this, you'll have backups of the firmware, etc. You replace said parts with the closest alternatives _and docuemtn the fact_. And enjoy the machine some more. > Artifact degradation is all about pissed off people in the future, > because you used the things to death. You do relaise that computers (in particular ICs) will die just sitting on the shelf? Plastic parts will degrade and fall apart. You might as well run them while you still have a chance. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:09:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:09:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour In-Reply-To: from "Henk Gooijen" at Aug 7, 12 10:36:27 pm Message-ID: > > From: "Tony Duell" > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:16 PM > To: > Subject: Re: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour > > >> > >> I'm noticing something on my PDP-11/84 that I can't explain. I've > > > > I';ll try a one-word explamation : 'Grants'. > > > > [... snip excellent explanation from Tony ...] > > I remember working on grants in the 11/84. > The 11/84 is very user-friendly, because there is a board next to > the CPU that has several DIP switches. Each DIP switch opens > or closes the NPR of one slot. So there is no need to count pins > on the backplane to find CA1-CB1. Just open/close the switch > for the appropriate slot. Right. That I did not know. TO be honest, the J11-based machiens are too mdoern for my taste :-) However, I would adcvise against flipping said switches unless you know what you are doing (for example you'bve got a switch open correspodning to an empty slot). It is better, IMHO, to actuall trace the fault and be sure it is an NPG problem before changing anything. Otherwise you will get in a muddle very quickly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:14:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:14:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 7, 12 04:39:52 pm Message-ID: > > > I have a policy now of /not/ donating computer-related items to any sort of > > museum simply because of this. I'd rather something collect dust in my own > > storage than have it be buried forever in a museum's "archive" where it is > > inaccessible. Locking things away from people who might have a genuine > > interest in them is imo just not right. > > In all honesty, have you every actually ever *talked* with museum > staff about this? You will find out that most museums are quite happy Yes, I have. I have asked to see artefacts in storage. I have asked if they could retrieve soemthing so I could see it (and then I would pay a future visit when it was available). Never got anywhere. Look, unless you have visitied computer museums in the UK and asked such questiosn then IMHO yuo don't know what the hell you are talking about. Museumes elsewhere might have very differnet policies. I am talking _only_ about the museums I have visited and/or sent (postal or electronic) mail to, asking for information on particular exhibits. I have never receieved anything useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:24:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:24:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <50212C64.21330.1625E52@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 7, 12 02:55:32 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Aug 2012 at 17:25, Alex Melt wrote: > > > Related, is there a generally recommended guide for bringing up old > > PSUs? > > It depends upon the type of PSU. > > Linear PSUs are better brought up with a dummy load with the line > voltage being brought up very gradually until full line voltage has > been reached.. There's some debate about this, but the old-time > radio guys seem to swear by it. Some swear by it, some swear at it :-). In particular (for old-time radios) if the rectifier is a valve (vacuum tube), it'll not do much with a low mains input voltage because the heater will be runnign at a low voltage too. So you are not doing a lot of good by 'running things up slowly' My methd is to check for shorts first. Check the capactiors and rectifier diodes. Then, woth the scrondary windings disconencted fro mthe rectifiers (if this is easilly possible), power up the trnasoformer with a seires light bulb. The bulb should be dark, the secodnary voltags should all be what you expect. If the bulb is glowing, supect shorted turns i nthe transformer. Then conenct the rectifiers, etc and try again. The bulb might 'flash' at switch-on (due to the charign of said capacitors), but if it continues to glow brightly, there's a short somewhere. If all's OK, power up withotu the seiries light bulb nad check the output voltages. Oh yes. Make sure the mains input fuse (and any other fuses) are correct. They are there for a reason!. In particualr the mains fuse will often protect hte transformer if somethign is shorted. Well, uless soem idiot has fitted a nail or something! > > As I understand it, the idea is to re-form the oxide layer in any > electrolytic capacitors. if you want to reform electrolytics, it's better to do it separately with the capacitors out of the PSU using a bench suply and series resistor. > > With switch-mode PSUs, it's generally "apply full power" (with an > appropriate load) and stand back, because switch-mode PSUs depend on > a certain level of line voltage for operation. Too low and you risk > damaging things. SMPSUs approximat a constat _power_ load to the mains. What this means is that they draw more current as the mains input voltage decreases (the chopper transitor is turned on for logner, basically). So low mains input voltages can resuylt in overcurrnet damage. For SMPUSs, I always assume the previous owner has used the thing. So I check the fuse, if it's shattered or blackened, I tread carefully becuase there is likely to be a major problem on the mains side. If the fuse is OK, and nothing obvious is shorted, I conenct a dummy load and fire it up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 8 13:43:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:43:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 8, 12 09:40:54 am Message-ID: > > Well what do you know! > I thought my radical views would attract some adverse comments. DOn't worry, the flames wil lcome :-) > Instead I get agreement from a well known and established collector. If you mean me (as per the message you rplied to), I would not describe myself in that way :-) > > As you know I am ex-DEC and therefore concentrate on that make. > My goal is to restore back to running order as they left the factory. Mine too. In fact I will admit I know little about 'cosmetic repair and resotration'. To me a computer is interesting because it 'computes'. Not for the colour of the case paint :-). Others may welll have differnt views onthsi, and IMHO, that's a good thing (we can't all do everything) but anyway... My articles (for HPCC) on repariing HP9800 machines cover just about every 'workign part', even how to strip and rebuild the original coooling fan, but I say little, if anything, on restoring the case. > Whilst many computers and peripherals are well designed and look quite good > the essential point is what they can do and have done. It's the fact that > the same machine can be used for a myriad of tasks. > > This was the key point in Alan Turing's 1936 'On Computable Numbers'. > > So two identical computers sitting alongside each but turned off are the > same thing. Turn them on and one controls traffic lights and the other holds > medical records. Therein lies the reason to restore to working condition and > not to static display or store them. YEs. A computer is not, and never will be, a piece of 'fine art', and for a museum to treat it in the same way as, say, an Old Master painting is to show a fundamental lack of understanding of this IMHO. COmptuers were used, they were repaired. Very rarely do yoy get an old machine where every part is origianl, just as it left the factory. And while a museum should attempt to preserve the 'fabric' of the machine as much as possible, that should not (IMHO) be at the expense of not running the machine. By all means keep logs of waht wa changed, repalced, not original, etc. But still keep the machine running. For my eersonal colelction (which is not a museum and neve will be), my policy is to perform any reversable modificaion which keeps the thing operaitonal. I'll even drill new mounting holes if I have to repalce a component. But nothing more. I preserve the electronic design of the machine, even the PSU and fan motor driver (!). SO I'll replace a ragulator transistor that's failed, but won't replace the entire PSU with a PC PSU. I'd amke a homebrew add-on board to expand the machine, interface it to , but said board must be able to work without modifications and will be clearly labelled to indicate it's not original. > I cannot see why known hobby restorers are never approached by museums > saying 'We have an XYZ123 system in store. If you restore it to working > order then it will go on display with a small card saying restored by Joe > Bloggs or whoever.' This reverses the donation flow, does not deplete the > private collection stock and brings more items into display at little or no > cost. This is one of my biggest moans about a certain computer museum over here. They will not accept that hobbyists are a useful resource. Or at leat, they asked me what 4 (IIRC) machines I had knowledge off. Darn it. that varies with time. And anyway, I might have rather more of a clue on a machien that I've never seen than some other people There is also the issue that repairing a machien now is very different to repairing it when it was in use, and when there were 'swap kits' of known-good boards, etc available. No, I am not advocting board-swpaping (we all know my views on that), but it's even more pointless if you don't have known-good boards to swap in. What this leads to is that the skills of a field service engineer, or even a depor service engineer from the company when the machine was in current use are perhaps less valualbe for restoring said machine in a museum than the skills of a hobbyist who's taught himself how to work on simialr machiens and debugs them from the ground up And yet I've yet to find a museum in the UK that recognises this. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 13:52:46 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:52:46 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <960BBFC1C3A741B79A38EA9C23A845CC@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 08 August 2012 19:07 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > > > > > > Computers are about noise, heat vibration and smell. > > > > Noise, heat vibration and smell are all about artifact degradation. > They ae, but as I said elsewhere, if you don't have them you have little more than a film set prop. > It depedns. > > If you're one of these people who thinks a computer is like a > piece of > fine art, then I guess you want to keep it in the state you > got it, never > replacing anything, Most museums seem to take this view, even > theough the > machines, when thek get them, are rarely jsut as they left > the factory. > > Alternatively you can run them. YEs, parts fail, but if you've been > sensible, you will know how to handle this, you'll have > backups of the > firmware, etc. You replace said parts with the closest > alternatives _and > docuemtn the fact_. And enjoy the machine some more. > > > Artifact degradation is all about pissed off people in the future, > > because you used the things to death. > Generally you will be left with the carcass of the machine, which is all you have if you don't use the machine. In many cases the use of the machine means that it will be better preserved as the mechanical parts will be oiled and lubricated... > You do relaise that computers (in particular ICs) will die > just sitting > on the shelf? Plastic parts will degrade and fall apart. You might as > well run them while you still have a chance. > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 8 13:53:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <50218C73.5962.2D998BB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20120807194930.M77584@shell.lmi.net> <50218C73.5962.2D998BB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120808090356.H93849@shell.lmi.net> > > 5150 had FORTRAN. Now THAT was a trainwreck! On simple benchmarks, > > such as an integer Sieve of Erastothanes, it was slower than the 5150 > > interpreted BASIC! On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do you recall who did the FORTRAN? Was it Ryan-McFarland? If so, I > can understand the speed. I'm referring to Microsoft FORTRAN for the 5150, as sold by IBM in 1983? It was written in MS-Pascal, (Bob Wallace wrote the MS-Pascal). and I was advised to try to avoid using its run-time library. Variable names of 6? characters long, ending in 'QQ' were off-limits. Nevertheless, in spite of poor performance, it did just fine for its intended use, which was to TEACH FPORTRAN > Microsoft F80 for 8080 had pretty decent code generation. I think > the FORTRAN for ISIS-II (Intel MDS) came on something like 7 8" > floppies. It was BIG. MS-FORTRAN for the 5150 was a new re-write, not a port. (Or at least that was what I was told). MS-FORTRAN for the TRS80 was actually decent, and IIRC, only a couple of disks, although the manual had a bunch of typos. An instructor at the community college where I sold the first copy insisted that the compiler was "hopelessly flawed", because he typed in the first demo program in the manual and it generated a syntax error due to a typo. He was well-regarded by his colleagues, and displeased when I suggested that a TEACHER of FORTRAN should surely be ably to debug such an obvious error, for his was too highly evolved a mind to concern itself with whether it should be a comma or a full-stop between the device number and the FORMAT statement number in a WRITE statement (such being the ways of the Grand Academy of Lagado, and most of the rest of Academia). When he moved to a different university a few years later, I was given his job, starting with teaching FORTRAN, now on 5150 with MS-FORTRAN. 45 years ago, on the 1620, we had PDQ ("Pretty Damn Quick" (a lie)) FORTRAN, IIRC, it was two passes to compile, each one called for a 3 or 4 inch deck of cards for thqat phase of the compiler. I had previously written FORTRAN on 360s at GWU, but the 1620 was my first chance to OPERATE the computer. I never was allowed entry into the grand temple room of the 1401. > Was there a FORTRAN for the 360/20? There was for the 360/30 at least. Later there was WATFOR My father did his work at GWU (George Washington University). I did a lot of keypunching, verifying, and sorting. Eventually I was allowed to load cards into the 360's reader, and ultimately to load paper (I mastered the ability to load paper without pausing the printer - much like threading a 16mm projector without stopping). Although I got an opportunity and took a semester course in "360 Operator Training" at the United States Department of Agriculture Graduate School, I never was allowed to touch the console. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 8 13:52:14 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 12:52:14 -0600 Subject: Scanning DS990/1 manuals, schematics In-Reply-To: <1344447679.22514@dragonsweb.org> References: <1344447679.22514@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: In article <1344447679.22514 at dragonsweb.org>, jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org writes: > These will be available at my site, dragonsweb.org and ftp.whtech.com, and > I've notified bitsavers.org also. "will be available"... I assume that means sometime in the future, because I looked at both sites and couldn't find anything. FYI, dark blue text on a black background is a very illegible color scheme. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 8 14:08:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 15:08:30 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5022B92E.30301@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2012 02:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> In all honesty, have you every actually ever *talked* with museum >> staff about this? You will find out that most museums are quite happy > > Yes, I have. I have asked to see artefacts in storage. I have asked if > they could retrieve soemthing so I could see it (and then I would pay a > future visit when it was available). Never got anywhere. > > Look, unless you have visitied computer museums in the UK and asked such > questiosn then IMHO yuo don't know what the hell you are talking about. > Museumes elsewhere might have very differnet policies. I am talking > _only_ about the museums I have visited and/or sent (postal or > electronic) mail to, asking for information on particular exhibits. I > have never receieved anything useful. My experience (in the USA) with many large, well-funded museums is that they tend to treat visitors and researchers as an inconvenience. Only once did I actually manage to get a museum employee to engage in a dialog about something I was researching (The National Corp. Atomichron), that was at the Smithsonian, and he was great. But that was, unfortunately, the exception. Note that I am NOT talking about CHM here, as I've never been there. (I'm dying to go, but it's on the other side of a pretty big continent!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 8 14:16:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 15:16:23 -0400 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <502241F6.5670.71AF64@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com>, <502287A4.6050309@verizon.net> <502241F6.5670.71AF64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5022BB07.7070605@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2012 01:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > again, the first thing I'd do would be to rework the power supply to > make it something less half-assed ("quarter-assed?"). But I guess "Quarter assed"!?! ROFL!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Aug 8 14:53:30 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 21:53:30 +0200 Subject: HP Visualize C8000 In-Reply-To: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> References: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201208081953.q78JrULJ031689@ls-al.eu> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Just landed a nice C8000 with a dual-core PA-8900 CPU for playing with at a > nice price, the last and most powerful of the Visualize workstations. I > have a CD set of 11i v1 in my stock closet which should do nicely. > > Any other PA-RISC users onlist? Any gotchas? The last Visualize I worked on > was a C3750, so that was a little behind this generation. I just don't have > the space for a K-class, tho. 8) > Well, not a PA-RISC user per se. I've got an Apollo series 700 at home running PUX 10, but I am a HP/UX admin at work running 11iv1-v3 on RX7 and BL870. I've still got an option on a N-class (upgraded to a RX), but it's so damned large ;) re, Sander From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 8 15:18:49 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 13:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Visualize C8000 In-Reply-To: <201208081953.q78JrULJ031689@ls-al.eu> from Sander Reiche at "Aug 8, 12 09:53:30 pm" Message-ID: <201208082018.q78KInv89371780@floodgap.com> > > Just landed a nice C8000 with a dual-core PA-8900 CPU for playing with at a > > nice price, the last and most powerful of the Visualize workstations. I > > have a CD set of 11i v1 in my stock closet which should do nicely. > > > > Any other PA-RISC users onlist? Any gotchas? The last Visualize I worked on > > was a C3750, so that was a little behind this generation. I just don't have > > the space for a K-class, tho. 8) > > Well, not a PA-RISC user per se. I've got an Apollo series 700 at > home running PUX 10, but I am a HP/UX admin at work running 11iv1-v3 > on RX7 and BL870. I've still got an option on a N-class (upgraded > to a RX), but it's so damned large ;) I did my time on a K250 back in the day which ran 10.20 and was upgraded to 11i when I left. Later they added an L-class of some variety before they decommissioned their PA-RISC gear altogether and I think they just run garden variety x86 Dell servers now. The bio department had a C3750 for (what else?) visualization when they got some big NSF grant, plus an overpowered SunFire V-something. I thought the C3750 was a slick machine though I didn't use it much other than getting it configured for them. Other than my HP 9000/350, it'll be good to have some HP hardware on deck again. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it. -- Abbie Hoffman - From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 15:24:30 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 22:24:30 +0200 Subject: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 8:09 PM To: Subject: Re: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour >> >> From: "Tony Duell" >> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:16 PM >> To: >> Subject: Re: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour >> >> >> >> >> I'm noticing something on my PDP-11/84 that I can't explain. I've >> > >> > I';ll try a one-word explamation : 'Grants'. >> > >> > [... snip excellent explanation from Tony ...] >> >> I remember working on grants in the 11/84. >> The 11/84 is very user-friendly, because there is a board next to >> the CPU that has several DIP switches. Each DIP switch opens >> or closes the NPR of one slot. So there is no need to count pins >> on the backplane to find CA1-CB1. Just open/close the switch >> for the appropriate slot. > > Right. That I did not know. TO be honest, the J11-based machiens are too > mdoern for my taste :-) > > However, I would adcvise against flipping said switches unless you know > what you are doing (for example you'bve got a switch open correspodning > to an empty slot). It is better, IMHO, to actuall trace the fault and be > sure it is an NPG problem before changing anything. Otherwise you will > get in a muddle very quickly. > > -tony Agreed! From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 15:25:39 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 16:25:39 -0400 Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs are here! Message-ID: <000401cd75a3$fa4a1310$eede3930$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! The XT-IDE V2 PCBs are back! They allow classic PC/XT type computers to use parallel IDE hard drives and also remote booting over a serial port. They are very useful boards. The PCBs are $12 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I'll send your board(s) right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Aug 8 15:52:16 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 16:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201208082052.QAA19395@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC With a name like that it's clearly someone who actually has some DEC clue, not just a random holding company. I'd call that good. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 8 15:55:00 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 15:55:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> The real challenge with my 1400 I think will be the hard drive. I pretty >> much put my 1400 project aside when I discovered that the V170 hard >> drive's head lock solenoid was stuck because I just don't have the means to >> service the drive (oddly enough, the drive shows signs of previous service >> work). > > Isd this a Vertex V170, a 5.25" wincheser? I know the V150 from my > PERQs, evil little things that have various problems. > > If it is similar to the drive I am thinking of, the lock solenoid is > inside the HDA :-(. I asusme you've checked it's getting a voltage > across it, and that it's not open-circuit (although what you could do if > it was is not obvious). Indeed, that's the one. I posted about it here about 10 years ago and details of it and the 1400 itself can be found in the list archives. I would post links to photos of the drive, but the listserv previously "disappeared" any emails I've sent that contained links to my webserver so I can't do that right now. The drive itself has previously been opened, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone else previously had problems with the head lock solenoid. From what I've read and was told, this is an extremely common problem with Vertex drives. > I think you're going to need to make one of those 'clean boxes' that get > menitoend here from time to time. That's pretty much where I left things with the 1400. I don't have a clean box and I'm not sure when I'll have the funds (or really even the space) to assemble one. I very much do need to recover the drive itself though because the software it contains isn't replaceable due to how scarce these machines are. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Aug 8 15:55:04 2012 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Scanning DS990/1 manuals, schematics Message-ID: <1344459304.9394@dragonsweb.org> Richard wrote .. > "will be available"... I assume that means sometime in the future, > because I looked at both sites and couldn't find anything. > > FYI, dark blue text on a black background is a very illegible color > scheme. Here's a direct link: ftp://dragonsweb.org/pub/ti/docs/ jbdigriz From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 8 16:02:51 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 23:02:51 +0200 Subject: HP Visualize C8000 In-Reply-To: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> References: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <000f01cd75a9$2fa15f00$8ee41d00$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Cameron Kaiser > Verzonden: woensdag 8 augustus 2012 19:45 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP Visualize C8000 > > Just landed a nice C8000 with a dual-core PA-8900 CPU for playing with at a nice > price, the last and most powerful of the Visualize workstations. I have a CD set > of 11i v1 in my stock closet which should do nicely. > > Any other PA-RISC users onlist? Any gotchas? The last Visualize I worked on was > a C3750, so that was a little behind this generation. I just don't have the space > for a K-class, tho. 8) > I do have several 9000 series 300 and 400's The 345 and 380 are running on HP-UX 9.10 I have a 900/735 which is running 10.20 and a D380 which is running 11.1i and a Visualize B2000 And a two 400's which haven't run for a long time, but I think they also run on 9.10 The D380 has to go so if anyone wants it let me know, it's fully loaded and I do have a lot of spare's. -Rik From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 16:12:51 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 17:12:51 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <960BBFC1C3A741B79A38EA9C23A845CC@G4UGMT41> References: <960BBFC1C3A741B79A38EA9C23A845CC@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: > They ae, but as I said elsewhere, if you don't have them you have little > more than a film set prop. ...that can be studied in extreme detail for many years, thanks to the original parts still being there. Nobody can tell what will be important in years to come. Things we see as mundane today may be very important in the future. We have seen this before. In classic-era archaeology, everyone wanted to study how the kings and emperors lived, with only a passing interest in how all the regular people got along. But then the unthinkable happened, and now everyone wants to what those regular people ate, smoked, built, drank, played, shat, painted, and learned. But many of those classic-era archaeologists trashed the village sites so they could get to the temples. > Generally you will be left with the carcass of the machine, which is all you > have if you don't use the machine. In many cases the use of the machine > means that it will be better preserved as the mechanical parts will be oiled > and lubricated... Yeah, tell that to the hard disk people. Or the printer people. Anyone have a 1416 print chain? -- Will From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 8 16:17:24 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 16:17:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Richard wrote: > Tothwolf writes: > >> To me at least, the Octane seems more "uncommon" than the 4D series... I >> own 5 different models of 4D series machines, including one which is >> housed in a large brown rack (all 5 machines came from the same place), >> yet I've never seen an Octane in person. > > Octanes are offered up regularly on ebay. Personal Iris a little less > often, but they still have been showing up with some frequency. What > is harder to find is the larger machines. Anything that can be easily > sent by a parcel carrier shows up with more regularity than something > that requires freight shipment. It's been a long while (multiple > years) since I've seen a deskside Onyx for sale on ebay. I lucked out > that a whole bunch of stuff was being surplussed from Boeing in St. > Louis all at the same time: Onyx 2 Reality Monster, Challenge XL, Onyx > XL, Crimson, Onyx deskside, spaceballs. Considering the size of the 4D series machines I have, that isn't that surprising. Each deskside machine would pretty much have to be shipped on its own pallet. >> The 1x00, 2x00 and 3x00 used the same deskside chassis, so the average >> person just looking at the exterior of the computer wouldn't see much >> difference between them. You 3100 being complete and fairly well populated >> with boards might actually make a better working demonstration than an >> earlier machine such as the 1400. > > Yes, it's nice to have the "high end" of the line for demonstration > purposes, but it's also useful to have a low-end member of the line to > represent the range of the product at that time. Also, the 1x00 > models were more like terminals and the 3x00 models were more like > workstations, so there are other differences besides performance and > capacity. I think you are thinking of the 1100 and 1200. The 1400 used the larger 20-slot deskside chassis (same as your 3100) and was a complete workstation with a hard drive for local storage. Historically speaking, it is an important system in the timeline of both Silicon Graphics and 3D graphics, but strictly for demonstration purposes, a 3x00 is going to have more memory and graphics processing to work with. >> The real challenge with my 1400 I think will be the hard drive. I pretty >> much put my 1400 project aside when I discovered that the V170 hard >> drive's head lock solenoid was stuck because I just don't have the means to >> service the drive (oddly enough, the drive shows signs of previous service >> work). > > Yeah, archiving any perishable bits (PROMs, hard drives, floppies, > etc.) is always the most challenging part of any restoration, I think. > It's always what's on my mind first before I start doing anything else > with a machine. With later SGIs, the hard drives are commodity SCSI > drives, so archiving them isn't difficult. Well, even SCSI drives are getting harder and harder to find (in working condition and at sane prices). Eventually we are going to have to find a cost-effective way to reliably replace such SCSI drives with currently available parts. [Yes, CF-IDE + IDE-SCSI solutions have been used by some, but this tends to be prohibitively expensive for most people.] >> Most museums would never even consider making the repairs that this IRIS >> 1400 requires to get it fully functional. > > Even the CHM has done restoration projects, but compared to the ones > they've done so far I expect an IRIS 1400 would be pretty far down on > their priority list. For me, it would be high up there as I'm focused > on graphics. LCM might do it, but even for them the IRIS 1400 is > getting a little far afield of their primary focus (minicomputer > timesharing). Well, by repairs I'm even talking about the failed ring/fork terminal connections I had to replace for the DC power supply wiring. Some of them had been poorly crimped and had failed (we've all see this). The "preserve everything exactly how it is" mentality from most "museums" would mean that they wouldn't cut off the burned terminals and reterminate the wiring (with exact replacements even). From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 8 16:22:20 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 23:22:20 +0200 Subject: HP 98xx series cassette EOT-sensor fix : war story Message-ID: <001001cd75ab$e8416670$b8c43350$@xs4all.nl> Lately I acquired some HP 9865 cassette units and a HP 9821A three cassette drives suffered from 'slow running' I found out the LDR's used in the EOT sensor are causing this behavior, the used LDR's are from the NSL314 type which is practically unobtainable. The NSL314 is a IR-sensitive CDSe type LDR, replacing it with a standard low resistance LDR doesn't do the trick, the LDR needs to have a resistance lower then ~5k at low light. The most of the cassette drives also suffer from bad sensor bulb, replacing the bulb by a white LED doesn't give enough light to do the trick. The combination white LED and new LDR isn't working because the LDR resistance isn't getting low enough. The sensor amplifier circuit needs to be modified to work correct, I did this by creating Wheatstone's bridge by adding a grounding resistor to the LDR input. Adding a series resistor of 10k to LDR input and changing the feedback resistor from 18k2 to 100k made the amplifier work correct with the combination white LED and 'normal' CDS type LDR. I made some pictures from this fix which can be found at my flickr page : http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/sets/72157630819381098/ -Rik From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 8 16:25:12 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 14:25:12 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5022D938.6030505@bitsavers.org> On 8/8/12 1:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > That's pretty much where I left things with the 1400. Did you manage to make a copy of the software tape? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 8 16:48:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 14:48:22 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <20120808090356.H93849@shell.lmi.net> References: , <50218C73.5962.2D998BB@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120808090356.H93849@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50227C36.18281.15538B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2012 at 11:53, Fred Cisin wrote: > I'm referring to Microsoft FORTRAN for the 5150, as sold by IBM in > 1983? Just wondering--R-M had both FORTRAN and COBOL for the 5150 pretty early on. > 45 years ago, on the 1620, we had PDQ ("Pretty Damn Quick" (a lie)) > FORTRAN, IIRC, it was two passes to compile, each one called for a 3 > or 4 inch deck of cards for thqat phase of the compiler. I had > previously written FORTRAN on 360s at GWU, but the 1620 was my first > chance to OPERATE the computer. I used both the card-oriented IBM FORTRAN (read in the first pass, then your source, cross your fingers and hope the 1622 doesn't flake out while punching the intermediate results, the read in the second pass, collect the punched object, then read it in with loader and library. Lots places for things to get messed up. Later I used FORTRAN II-D under Monitor II on the 1620 with an 1311 disk. It worked much better and you could call SPS subroutines from it. No user-oriented file system per-se; just "work cylinders" that were fair game for any program and the "system area" with fixed locations for ssystem code.. Ever use it? > > Was there a FORTRAN for the 360/20? > There was for the 360/30 at least. Later there was WATFOR > My father did his work at GWU (George Washington University). > I did a lot of keypunching, verifying, and sorting. Well, yes--there was a bare-bones "USA BASIC FORTRAN" for the smaller 32-bit S/360s (I used it under DOS. It was distinguished by the fact that it probably had fewer than 10 one-or-two-word error messages), but I wonder if there was ever one for the 16-bit model 20. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 16:49:48 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 22:49:48 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4E92129E8A47405983679C5F25A211A3@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: 08 August 2012 22:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > > > They ae, but as I said elsewhere, if you don't have them you have > > little more than a film set prop. > > ...that can be studied in extreme detail for many years, > thanks to the original parts still being there. > > Nobody can tell what will be important in years to come. > Things we see as mundane today may be very important in the > future. We have seen this before. In classic-era archaeology, > everyone wanted to study how the kings and emperors lived, > with only a passing interest in how all the regular people > got along. But then the unthinkable happened, and now > everyone wants to what those regular people ate, smoked, > built, drank, played, shat, painted, and learned. > > But many of those classic-era archaeologists trashed the > village sites so they could get to the temples. > > > Generally you will be left with the carcass of the machine, > which is > > all you have if you don't use the machine. In many cases the use of > > the machine means that it will be better preserved as the > mechanical > > parts will be oiled and lubricated... > > Yeah, tell that to the hard disk people. Or the printer people. > So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? Replicas? Reproductions? To most museums these are even more of a poisioned challice than using an original. At present the only really early machines we have are reconstructions. When I started commercial programming every business had one or two large mainframes. Can any one see reproductions of 1960's Mainframes being made... > Anyone have a 1416 print chain? > PN or TN? Actually I'll bet some one on this list, possibly Dave McGuire, but its an IBM part so perhaps not, has at least one, probably in manufacturers original protective waxed paper..... > -- > Will > From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Aug 8 17:03:25 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 18:03:25 -0400 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <502241F6.5670.71AF64@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com>, <502287A4.6050309@verizon.net> <502241F6.5670.71AF64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5022E22D.6020307@verizon.net> On 08/08/2012 01:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Aug 2012 at 11:37, Allison wrote: > >> its important to note the original MITS-8800 PS was a peice of crap >> and the 8800A is what you want. I have the pre-A original version and >> that does not carry more than a few boards before the -8V and +12V >> droops badly. The transformers and filter caps were too small. > Thanks for pointing that out! I've sometimes thought that if I > pulled my old 8800 down off the shelf and tried to get it going > again, the first thing I'd do would be to rework the power supply to > make it something less half-assed ("quarter-assed?"). But I guess > that would destroy the historical cachet of the thing, so it'll sit > around some more. The last time I powered it on about 15 years ago, > you could see the AC ripple in the front-panel LEDs. > > --Chuck > The historical cachet of the beast was all the hacks needed to make it work! Most had been published! FYI the usual fix was to add about 8-10 turns of wire to the winding used for 8V to get a bit more headroom and triple the size of the caps and make up a new net of rectifiers using stud mount diodes for the 8V and something with more moxie for the +16 and -16V lines. When I retired the best after about two years for a NS* Horizon crate the first thing I noted is the Horizon even with out the wood cover was way heavier and it was all the iron and caps in the PS! The Compupro and TEI S100 boxes were even better as they did a better job of directing the cooling air and used heavy CV transformers. Allison From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Aug 8 17:21:30 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 17:21:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5022D938.6030505@bitsavers.org> References: <5022D938.6030505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/8/12 1:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> That's pretty much where I left things with the 1400. > > Did you manage to make a copy of the software tape? I sure did, almost immediately after I got them ~10 years ago. I was afraid the tapes might begin to degrade after being removed from the computer room so I didn't let them sit long. One of the emails the listserv just recently ate included links to my webserver where I have image files of the tapes. With the mkboot tape though, I'm not 100% sure if it is functional. I had no errors while reading the tape, and both the first and third partitions are fully extractable cpio format, but the second partition doesn't read as cpio (but appears to be some sort of binary archive). I dumped them byte for byte as they were on the tape though. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 17:33:26 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 18:33:26 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4E92129E8A47405983679C5F25A211A3@G4UGMT41> References: <4E92129E8A47405983679C5F25A211A3@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: > So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? > Replicas? Reproductions? Simulators are good. > To most museums these are even more of a poisioned > challice than using an original. At present the only really early machines > we have are reconstructions. When I started commercial programming every > business had one or two large mainframes. Can any one see reproductions of > 1960's Mainframes being made... I do not think there is any demand, so why should someone make one? But there is a demand for the simulators, so people write them. This is not a black and white issue. There are plenty of old machines out there that someone can study to learn the heritage - or even purchase to hack on. Getting a PDP-8 is not hard to do. Getting an Altair is not either. Yes, getting a 7000 series IBM is out of reach, but you just have to deal with the fact that they were never made in big numbers, and most are long gone. The ones that remain need to be pampered and properly cared for if you want them to last for the grandkids. Or the great great great great great great great great grandkids. Just realize that it is a good idea to set aside *some* machines in a museum, and treat them as if they need to last for 1000 years. > Actually I'll bet some one on this list, possibly Dave McGuire, but its an > IBM part so perhaps not, has at least one, probably in manufacturers > original protective waxed paper..... Well, the 1401 team would sure like to know about it. Pretty soon the 1403s will be silent, as they are down to only a chain or two. I thought I had some, but they are actually print trains (for the 1403N1). -- Will From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Aug 8 18:05:12 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 01:05:12 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5022F0A8.2040906@update.uu.se> On 2012-08-08 19:00, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >> > > Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several times on this > list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC > > I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. Indeed. I know it's been said a few times by now. I'm almost thinking that some people just don't want to hear that answer... So, to repeat, the PDP-11 software is still owned, and it is not Mentec anymore. Oh, and I saw the other confused discussion about Mentec vs Mentec US. The Mentec that had the PDP-11 software was not found under mentec.com, but under mentec-inc.com - how fast people forget... This is from Jan 6, 2006: http://web.archive.org/web/20060106160717/http://www.mentec-inc.com/ Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Aug 8 18:11:42 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 01:11:42 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5022F22E.8020305@update.uu.se> On 2012-08-08 23:17, Mouse wrote: > >> >The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC > With a name like that it's clearly someone who actually has some DEC > clue, not just a random holding company. I'd call that good. As Al Kossov alluded to, the "someone" is Dave Carroll. Ex. DEC, ex Mentec, and the last person around at Mentec who did the development of this software. Yes, it is a good sign. However, don't anyone hold their breath. The age old problem of HP still have a controlling interest in all this is still around and just as unsolved as ever before. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Aug 8 18:16:13 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 01:16:13 +0200 Subject: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5022F33D.8010300@update.uu.se> On 2012-08-08 23:17, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> > >> >From: "Tony Duell" >> >Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:16 PM >> >To: >> >Subject: Re: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour >> > >>>> > >> >>>> > >>I'm noticing something on my PDP-11/84 that I can't explain. I've >>> > > >>> > >I';ll try a one-word explamation : 'Grants'. >>> > > >>> > >[... snip excellent explanation from Tony ...] >> > >> >I remember working on grants in the 11/84. >> >The 11/84 is very user-friendly, because there is a board next to >> >the CPU that has several DIP switches. Each DIP switch opens >> >or closes the NPR of one slot. So there is no need to count pins >> >on the backplane to find CA1-CB1. Just open/close the switch >> >for the appropriate slot. > Right. That I did not know. TO be honest, the J11-based machiens are too > mdoern for my taste:-) It is rather convenient. But it should be pointed out that DIP switches for the NPG signal only exists for the first eight Unibus slots, which are in the first backplane. If you put in any more Unibus backplanes, it's the same standard story of the jumpers on the pins as always. (I *think* it is eight slots on the first backplane in the 11/84, but I might remember that detail wrong, but I hope people understand the idea even if I happened to get the actual number wrong.) > However, I would adcvise against flipping said switches unless you know > what you are doing (for example you'bve got a switch open correspodning > to an empty slot). It is better, IMHO, to actuall trace the fault and be > sure it is an NPG problem before changing anything. Otherwise you will > get in a muddle very quickly. Right. Random flipping of switches is no way to troubleshooting. Johnny From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 8 18:25:20 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 17:25:20 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: In article , Tothwolf writes: > Considering the size of the 4D series machines I have, that isn't that > surprising. Each deskside machine would pretty much have to be shipped on > its own pallet. Yep. > > [...] Also, the 1x00 > > models were more like terminals and the 3x00 models were more like > > workstations, so there are other differences besides performance and > > capacity. > > I think you are thinking of the 1100 and 1200. The 1400 used the larger > 20-slot deskside chassis (same as your 3100) and was a complete > workstation with a hard drive for local storage. Ah, I didn't realize that was the case for the 1x00 series as well. It's hard to find stuff online about this first generation of SGI machines. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 8 18:37:12 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:37:12 -0400 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <5022F22E.8020305@update.uu.se> References: <5022F22E.8020305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5022F828.4080108@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >On 2012-08-08 23:17, Mouse wrote: > >>> >The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC >> >> With a name like that it's clearly someone who actually has some DEC >> clue, not just a random holding company. I'd call that good. > > As Al Kossov alluded to, the "someone" is Dave Carroll. Ex. DEC, ex > Mentec, and the last person around at Mentec who did the development > of this software. XX2247.LLC has been inactive for a number of years. The name refers to the special key used to lock a DEC console. The web site specifies "Under Construction". You can do a search at whois. Now that you have confirmed this publicly (well at least to the few individuals who might actually care), I can say that I arrived at the same conclusion a few months ago. When I attempted to contact Dave at the location where he actually works (after all, owning the company which owns the rights to the PDP-11 software IP will no longer pay the bills), Dave neglected to return my phone calls and e-mails. At my age, I can't remember the name of that company, but I seem to remember the name starts with "A". > Yes, it is a good sign. However, don't anyone hold their breath. The > age old problem of HP still have a controlling interest in all this is > still around and just as unsolved as ever before. When DEC sold the rights to the IP for the software to Mentec, DEC probably retained a veto on most decisions with respect to hobby use. HP now has that control. In addition, even commercial use now seems to be blocked as far as the purchase of a license is concerned. My guess is that until the issues are resolved, Dave and everyone else are keeping quite. Jerome Fine From hachti at hachti.de Wed Aug 8 18:48:26 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 01:48:26 +0200 Subject: potter pens. In-Reply-To: <20120716141556.GA25031@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <500249A4.5040705@hachti.de> <20120716141556.GA25031@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <5022FACA.90905@hachti.de> Am 16.07.2012 16:15, schrieb David Gesswein: > The standard Fisher space pen was too long for my Calcomp. Good to know... I've not yet tried standard pens because I simply have enough Calcomp branded Fisher mines... Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 8 18:52:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 16:52:41 -0700 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <5022E22D.6020307@verizon.net> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com>, <502241F6.5670.71AF64@cclist.sydex.com>, <5022E22D.6020307@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50229959.2978.1C709AF@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2012 at 18:03, allison wrote: > When I retired the best after about two years for a NS* Horizon crate > the first thing I noted is the Horizon even with out the wood cover > was way heavier and it was all the iron and caps in the PS! When I added disk drives, I replaced the MITS box with an Integrand unit which has a transformer that would make any steelworker proud. I recently ran across the documentation and prints for it. Sadly, it was done as diazo print, so it's pretty much all faded out. The MITS box PSU couldn't handle the exisiting cards and a floppy controller. --Chuck From cctech at vax-11.org Wed Aug 8 18:59:45 2012 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 17:59:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >> > > Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several times on > this > list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC > > I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. > > A google on xx2247 reveals an xx2247.org (coming soon), and a whois gives a real name. It may be unrelated, but you could try the contact information and see what happens. Clint From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 8 19:00:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 17:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <50227C36.18281.15538B8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <50218C73.5962.2D998BB@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120808090356.H93849@shell.lmi.net> <50227C36.18281.15538B8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120808165554.F2602@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm referring to Microsoft FORTRAN for the 5150, as sold by IBM in > > 1983? On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just wondering--R-M had both FORTRAN and COBOL for the 5150 pretty > early on. But, surely not as slow as the IBM MS-DORTRAN??!? > Ever use it? No, the only FORTRAN that I had access to on the 1620 (as a student in community college) was the "PDQ" But the 1401 emulator was even more fun. > Well, yes--there was a bare-bones "USA BASIC FORTRAN" for the smaller > 32-bit S/360s (I used it under DOS. It was distinguished by the fact > that it probably had fewer than 10 one-or-two-word error messages), > but I wonder if there was ever one for the 16-bit model 20. No idea. But the WATFOR had better error messages. Which, as an inexperienced programmer, I needed. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 8 19:05:44 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 20:05:44 -0400 Subject: Forward Delay of posts? Message-ID: <5022FED8.7030304@compsys.to> I received the post from Johnny at around 7:19 P.M. EDT in Toronto. The time stamp was 7:11 P.M. EDT in Toronto which I thought corresponds to when Johnny sent the post from Sweden? which would have been no more than an 8 minute delay. In any case, I send my reply to classiccmp at 7:37 P.M. EDT and received the copy back at my computer about 20 minutes later at about 7:57 P.M. EDT. What I am curious about is the 20 minute delay from when my reply was sent to classiccmp vs the time the reply was received back from classiccmp? Is a 20 minute delay normal? I know that classiccmp has a delay of at least 5 minutes whereas another list I monitor responds almost immediately. Any comments? Jerome Fine From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 19:25:52 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 20:25:52 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4E92129E8A47405983679C5F25A211A3@G4UGMT41> References: <4E92129E8A47405983679C5F25A211A3@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <96455B12-BAE2-4A7C-8D90-A830AF9EC9F6@me.com> There is a real problem about computer heritage. These machines are, arguably, one of the most important inventions in human history - but very few have any interest in how they work, or how they evolved over time. It seemed in the '90s with the rise of Windows and Microsoft, everyone moved away from that level of knowledge. The Ontario Science Center outside of Toronto had a magnificent computer display showing logic gates and their interaction(in fact, as a child I was featured in a commercial for the centre playing with that exact display). Microsoft made a donation, and it was all pulled out - replaced by desktop machines. I've been fascinated with computers almost my entire life, and it's an ongoing goal of mine to help propagate that sort of information. I've been wanting to see if I could put together a kit that would mimic the old TX-0 architecture, then offer it as a kit through a place like Seeed Studio. I'm not aware of any active kits for the old style of toggle-switch programmed machine. On 2012-08-08, at 5:49 PM, Dave wrote: >> > > So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? > Replicas? Reproductions? To most museums these are even more of a poisioned > challice than using an original. At present the only really early machines > we have are reconstructions. When I started commercial programming every > business had one or two large mainframes. Can any one see reproductions of > 1960's Mainframes being made... > From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 19:36:28 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 20:36:28 -0400 Subject: MEK6800 Message-ID: <82ED305E-893B-4160-9489-B5A1A33D0A6D@me.com> A number of years ago now, I ran across a bit of a find at a computer recycler's. It's an old Motorola evaluation kit for the 6800. I thought I had the CPU board, an interface board and a couple memory boards - it turns out I had two pairs of the processor board and interface board. I've fired up at least the one pair, and they work perfectly. I loaded some code into memory using the hex keypad and it ran fine. Anybody else run across these? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 19:44:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 17:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Visualize C8000 In-Reply-To: <000f01cd75a9$2fa15f00$8ee41d00$@xs4all.nl> References: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> <000f01cd75a9$2fa15f00$8ee41d00$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1344473098.70893.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> are the C3nnn and J5nnn series servers power mongers? Is it practical to own and use one of these w/o noticing a significant jump in your electric bill? I scarfed 11i about 6 years ago when HP was giving it away, but never made the jump to acquiring any h/w. I want something w/character. And gusto. Just don't want to pay through the nose for the privilege. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 19:46:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 20:46:38 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <96455B12-BAE2-4A7C-8D90-A830AF9EC9F6@me.com> References: <4E92129E8A47405983679C5F25A211A3@G4UGMT41> <96455B12-BAE2-4A7C-8D90-A830AF9EC9F6@me.com> Message-ID: <8B791051-9EB8-4F62-9F86-392EE9096B0D@gmail.com> On Aug 8, 2012, at 20:25, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've been fascinated with computers almost my entire life, and it's an ongoing goal of mine to help propagate that sort of information. I've been wanting to see if I could put together a kit that would mimic the old TX-0 architecture, then offer it as a kit through a place like Seeed Studio. I'm not aware of any active kits for the old style of toggle-switch programmed machine. There's always Club Jameco. I've been tempted to make a 6809 SBC kit and sell it there. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 8 19:53:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 20:53:47 -0400 Subject: MEK6800 In-Reply-To: <82ED305E-893B-4160-9489-B5A1A33D0A6D@me.com> References: <82ED305E-893B-4160-9489-B5A1A33D0A6D@me.com> Message-ID: <50230A1B.9060505@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2012 08:36 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > A number of years ago now, I ran across a bit of a find at a computer recycler's. It's an old Motorola evaluation kit for the 6800. I thought I had the CPU board, an interface board and a couple memory boards - it turns out I had two pairs of the processor board and interface board. I've fired up at least the one pair, and they work perfectly. I loaded some code into memory using the hex keypad and it ran fine. Anybody else run across these? I have one. Neat board. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 8 19:54:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 20:54:13 -0400 Subject: Forward Delay of posts? In-Reply-To: <5022FED8.7030304@compsys.to> References: <5022FED8.7030304@compsys.to> Message-ID: <50230A35.8040405@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2012 08:05 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I received the post from Johnny at around 7:19 P.M. EDT in Toronto. > > The time stamp was 7:11 P.M. EDT in Toronto which I thought > corresponds to when Johnny sent the post from Sweden? which > would have been no more than an 8 minute delay. > > In any case, I send my reply to classiccmp at 7:37 P.M. EDT > and received the copy back at my computer about 20 minutes > later at about 7:57 P.M. EDT. > > What I am curious about is the 20 minute delay from when my > reply was sent to classiccmp vs the time the reply was received > back from classiccmp? Is a 20 minute delay normal? > > I know that classiccmp has a delay of at least 5 minutes whereas > another list I monitor responds almost immediately. Any comments? I normally see 10-30 minute delays. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 19:53:51 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 20:53:51 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: Of course, it depends on the institution. Many museums will have a system in place whereby one can request access to something that isn't on display. This is usually aimed at researchers, although who qualifies as a researcher can be pretty open. I think it behooves a museum to make things as open as possible, I see Henry Ford Museum has done something interesting online: http://collections.thehenryford.org/index.aspx It's possible to put a lot more artefacts online than it is to display. This requires manpower, of course. That is always the sticking point. On 2012-08-07, at 1:26 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> > > I have a policy now of /not/ donating computer-related items to any sort of museum simply because of this. I'd rather something collect dust in my own storage than have it be buried forever in a museum's "archive" where it is inaccessible. Locking things away from people who might have a genuine interest in them is imo just not right. > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 20:15:05 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 18:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forward Delay of posts? In-Reply-To: <50230A35.8040405@neurotica.com> References: <5022FED8.7030304@compsys.to> <50230A35.8040405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1344474905.37662.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've been seeing very short delays, a few minutes if that. I have gotten replies to my posts before I got my post though in the past! Gave me the willies. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 20:18:46 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 18:18:46 -0700 Subject: MEK6800 In-Reply-To: <82ED305E-893B-4160-9489-B5A1A33D0A6D@me.com> References: <82ED305E-893B-4160-9489-B5A1A33D0A6D@me.com> Message-ID: On Aug 8, 2012 5:40 PM, "Paul Anderson" wrote: > > A number of years ago now, I ran across a bit of a find at a computer recycler's. It's an old Motorola evaluation kit for the 6800. I thought I had the CPU board, an interface board and a couple memory boards - it turns out I had two pairs of the processor board and interface board. I've fired up at least the one pair, and they work perfectly. I loaded some code into memory using the hex keypad and it ran fine. Anybody else run across these? Is that the D2 version (I think that is what it is called) that has keypad and LED displays on a second board connected via ribbon cable to the CPU board? I have a complete unbuilt set of the (earlier?) version which is a single EXORbus card with a MIKBug monitor ROM for use with on the board serial interface. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Aug 8 20:23:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 18:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone else w/an NEC PC-8001A? Message-ID: <1344475437.65380.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I just need some moral support, as my unit currently doesn't work. Probably an easy fix. I do have the whole deck out though, floppy cabinet, expansion cabinet. Monitor. From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 20:39:11 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 21:39:11 -0400 Subject: MEK6800 In-Reply-To: References: <82ED305E-893B-4160-9489-B5A1A33D0A6D@me.com> Message-ID: <1B128D43-05BF-4191-8B43-71917A01ECA5@me.com> It would definitely be the D2 version. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-08, at 9:18 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Aug 8, 2012 5:40 PM, "Paul Anderson" wrote: >> >> A number of years ago now, I ran across a bit of a find at a computer > recycler's. It's an old Motorola evaluation kit for the 6800. I thought I > had the CPU board, an interface board and a couple memory boards - it turns > out I had two pairs of the processor board and interface board. I've fired > up at least the one pair, and they work perfectly. I loaded some code into > memory using the hex keypad and it ran fine. Anybody else run across these? > > Is that the D2 version (I think that is what it is called) that has keypad > and LED displays on a second board connected via ribbon cable to the CPU > board? > > I have a complete unbuilt set of the (earlier?) version which is a single > EXORbus card with a MIKBug monitor ROM for use with on the board serial > interface. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Aug 8 20:49:48 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 18:49:48 -0700 Subject: DEC SB11 info Message-ID: <5023173C.80907@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- Anyone know anything about the DEC SB-11 enclosure? It's a small (13"x12"x3.5" or so) chassis containing a power supply and a 4-slot dual-height q-bus backplane. Very cute, and I want to put together a small 11/23 system in it. Anyone know the original intended usage for these little things? In particular, a power supply schematic would be helpful as the one in mine is giving me trouble at the moment. (Just blows fuses when powered up.) I can't find anything useful about it on the 'net. The full model designation on this one is "OSB11-EA." Thanks as always, Josh From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 21:06:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 22:06:59 -0400 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <50229959.2978.1C709AF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com>, <502241F6.5670.71AF64@cclist.sydex.com>, <5022E22D.6020307@verizon.net> <50229959.2978.1C709AF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9847D8C9-B96B-4E16-A1FA-CF1770044CA7@gmail.com> On Aug 8, 2012, at 7:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Aug 2012 at 18:03, allison wrote: > >> When I retired the best after about two years for a NS* Horizon crate >> the first thing I noted is the Horizon even with out the wood cover >> was way heavier and it was all the iron and caps in the PS! > > When I added disk drives, I replaced the MITS box with an Integrand > unit which has a transformer that would make any steelworker proud. > I recently ran across the documentation and prints for it. Sadly, it > was done as diazo print, so it's pretty much all faded out. Is there any way to recover those chemically? I'd be surprised if there weren't some permanent modification of the paper that could be recovered either through exposing it to something or viewing it under another spectrum. - Dave From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 21:18:29 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:18:29 -0400 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <9847D8C9-B96B-4E16-A1FA-CF1770044CA7@gmail.com> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com> <502241F6.5670.71AF64@cclist.sydex.com> <5022E22D.6020307@verizon.net> <50229959.2978.1C709AF@cclist.sydex.com> <9847D8C9-B96B-4E16-A1FA-CF1770044CA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9141084B-FB9D-42D6-A003-876719FF094E@me.com> I'd try photographing it with IR film. I think that's what they used on the vindolanda tablets... -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-08, at 10:06 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 8, 2012, at 7:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 8 Aug 2012 at 18:03, allison wrote: >> >>> When I retired the best after about two years for a NS* Horizon crate >>> the first thing I noted is the Horizon even with out the wood cover >>> was way heavier and it was all the iron and caps in the PS! >> >> When I added disk drives, I replaced the MITS box with an Integrand >> unit which has a transformer that would make any steelworker proud. >> I recently ran across the documentation and prints for it. Sadly, it >> was done as diazo print, so it's pretty much all faded out. > > Is there any way to recover those chemically? I'd be surprised if > there weren't some permanent modification of the paper that could be > recovered either through exposing it to something or viewing it under > another spectrum. > > > - Dave > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Aug 8 21:19:34 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:19:34 -0700 Subject: DEC SB11 info In-Reply-To: <5023173C.80907@mail.msu.edu> References: <5023173C.80907@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <50231E36.8000400@gmail.com> On 8/8/2012 6:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Anyone know anything about the DEC SB-11 enclosure? It's a small > (13"x12"x3.5" or so) chassis containing a power supply and a 4-slot > dual-height q-bus backplane. Very cute, and I want to put together a > small 11/23 system in it. Anyone know the original intended usage for > these little things? > > In particular, a power supply schematic would be helpful as the one in > mine is giving me trouble at the moment. (Just blows fuses when > powered up.) I can't find anything useful about it on the 'net. The > full model designation on this one is "OSB11-EA." > > Thanks as always, > Josh Is it the same as this one ? http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/pdp-11_23.htm Might be everything you need to know there. From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 8 21:34:11 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:34:11 -0400 Subject: Forward Delay of posts? In-Reply-To: <1344474905.37662.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5022FED8.7030304@compsys.to> <50230A35.8040405@neurotica.com> <1344474905.37662.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502321A3.5070007@verizon.net> On 8/8/2012 9:15 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I've been seeing very short delays, a few minutes if that. I have > gotten replies to my posts before I got my post though in the past! > Gave me the willies. If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour, you're gonna see some serious shit. Keith From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Aug 8 21:36:25 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:36:25 -0700 Subject: DEC SB11 info In-Reply-To: <50231E36.8000400@gmail.com> References: <5023173C.80907@mail.msu.edu> <50231E36.8000400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50232229.5050004@mail.msu.edu> On 8/8/2012 7:19 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/8/2012 6:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Anyone know anything about the DEC SB-11 enclosure? It's a small >> (13"x12"x3.5" or so) chassis containing a power supply and a 4-slot >> dual-height q-bus backplane. Very cute, and I want to put together a >> small 11/23 system in it. Anyone know the original intended usage >> for these little things? >> >> In particular, a power supply schematic would be helpful as the one >> in mine is giving me trouble at the moment. (Just blows fuses when >> powered up.) I can't find anything useful about it on the 'net. The >> full model designation on this one is "OSB11-EA." >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh > > > Is it the same as this one ? > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/pdp-11_23.htm > > Might be everything you need to know there. > No, that looks like something else entirely. However, I just now noticed another ID on this device, on the rear below the Digital logo; it appears the full name for this chassis is BA11-VA. And already I'm finding a bit more useful information :). Such as: http://www.pdp-11.nl/ba11-boxes/ba11va/ba11va-info.html. Mine looks identical to that, except it says "SB11" in orange on the front next to the Digital logo. Now to track down that schematic... Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 8 21:41:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:41:46 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4E92129E8A47405983679C5F25A211A3@G4UGMT41> References: <4E92129E8A47405983679C5F25A211A3@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <5023236A.6030004@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2012 05:49 PM, Dave wrote: >> Anyone have a 1416 print chain? >> > > PN or TN? > > Actually I'll bet some one on this list, possibly Dave McGuire, but its an > IBM part so perhaps not, has at least one, probably in manufacturers > original protective waxed paper..... I do not have one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 8 21:51:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:51:23 -0700 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <9141084B-FB9D-42D6-A003-876719FF094E@me.com> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com>, <9847D8C9-B96B-4E16-A1FA-CF1770044CA7@gmail.com>, <9141084B-FB9D-42D6-A003-876719FF094E@me.com> Message-ID: <5022C33B.5877.26AA3A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2012 at 22:18, Paul Anderson wrote: > I'd try photographing it with IR film. I think that's what they used > on the vindolanda tablets... > > Is there any way to recover those chemically? I'd be surprised if > > there weren't some permanent modification of the paper that could be > > recovered either through exposing it to something or viewing it > > under another spectrum. I've never heard of anyone recovering this type of fading-. Diazos were often used as proof copies because of this very property (they go away with time). I've also got a pile of old FAXes done on thermal FAX paper. Also unreadable. Still, if anyone has any solid documentation on how to go about this, I"m listening. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 21:57:07 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 19:57:07 -0700 Subject: Anyone with information on the NA2000series modules? In-Reply-To: <1344475437.65380.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344475437.65380.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi A post in another group remined me that I should ask about these. These were small modules that plugged together a little like PC104, as a stack. National Semiconductor made them. They used the NSC800 processor. I have several modules but the powersupply module had a battery leak that destroyed some of the PC board and components. I was wondering if others and any knowledge of these modules? These are kind of cool, one I have came with Forth built in. Dwight From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 21:59:01 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 22:59:01 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <960BBFC1C3A741B79A38EA9C23A845CC@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <77185227-0F61-4846-A0DF-01BF0707FAEF@me.com> On 2012-08-08, at 5:12 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> > > But many of those classic-era archaeologists trashed the village sites > so they could get to the temples. > *cough*SCHLIEMANN*cough* From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 22:14:49 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 23:14:49 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: This is in line with my experience. Some are very cautious, there are people out there who would use such a privilege to damage things. In general, museums are all about preservation and study. If you are studying, they are very helpful. On 2012-08-07, at 4:39 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I have a policy now of /not/ donating computer-related items to any sort of >> museum simply because of this. I'd rather something collect dust in my own >> storage than have it be buried forever in a museum's "archive" where it is >> inaccessible. Locking things away from people who might have a genuine >> interest in them is imo just not right. > > In all honesty, have you every actually ever *talked* with museum > staff about this? You will find out that most museums are quite happy > about showing things off in the back room. All you need to do is be > very respectful and follow the rules, have *some* sort of reason to > want to see something, and most importantly, don't be a dick. It is > pretty easy, actually. > > -- > Will From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 22:31:22 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 23:31:22 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm at university right now, studying classics(ancient rome and greece), and this reminds me of something my prof told me. He was participating in one dig where they ended up uncovering a grand total of about ten *tons* of potsherds. That's about nine thousand kilograms for the metric inclined. The problem is that most of them had no real diagnostic value - no markings, nothing unusual. Not really much to be learned from them. Of course, you couldn't put them in a museum. All the museums in the world put together don't have space for ten tons of random, unmarked potsherds. I had thought they should see about selling them, lots of people would love to have a piece of ancient greece - but, no, my prof pointed out that they would then become fodder for forgers. So, what to do? Fortunately, at the time, Athens Airport was building a new runway - and needed fill. Those potsherds are buried under the runway. Sometimes, there's just too much *stuff*. On 2012-08-07, at 5:16 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 08/07/2012 11:37 AM, Richard wrote: >> Speaking for myself, I have entered a phase familiar to anyone who has >> started one of these computer museums: I am starting to actively >> refuse or ignore certain kinds of items. You can't collect everything >> and you have to focus on your core mission. Strictly speaking, I have >> probably already gone too far away from my core mission (computer >> graphics) in a few instances. > > Do you do anything for the items that you turn down? I've been there myself, and was always worried about things ending up in landfill - some people will make very little effort to find a home for things (as is their right, of course). I sometimes ended up with something I really didn't want, but thankfully I've been lucky and never had much of a problem passing things on to other homes. > >> The CHM commonly refuses items these days > > Now I'm curious what their policy is, too. > > cheers > > Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 8 22:54:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 20:54:16 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro>, <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <5022D1F8.24049.2A43560@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2012 at 23:31, Paul Anderson wrote: > Sometimes, there's just too much *stuff*. While the iron is nice to have, it's the documentation and associated ephemera that are the most interesting to me. Given sufficient documentation, it's possible (perhaps not practical) to build a real working 7090 replica. Or to manufacture 10 tons of potsherds. Makes me wonder what archaeologists a thousand years hence will think of our landfills. I wonder if we're starting the "Great Dark Age" where almost nothing will be known, because, you know, it's all on the Web... I feel that way sometimes when looking for old software and hardware information. Sure, archive.org has a lot of stuff, but it doesn't archive *everything*. Inevitably, it's that missing bit that I really need. --Chuck From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 8 23:15:32 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 00:15:32 -0400 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <5022C33B.5877.26AA3A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com> <9847D8C9-B96B-4E16-A1FA-CF1770044CA7@gmail.com> <9141084B-FB9D-42D6-A003-876719FF094E@me.com> <5022C33B.5877.26AA3A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I'm going to do some research, another mailing list I'm on has quite a few museum people. There are some conservation experts there that might have an idea. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-08, at 10:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Aug 2012 at 22:18, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> I'd try photographing it with IR film. I think that's what they used >> on the vindolanda tablets... > >>> Is there any way to recover those chemically? I'd be surprised if >>> there weren't some permanent modification of the paper that could be >>> recovered either through exposing it to something or viewing it >>> under another spectrum. > > I've never heard of anyone recovering this type of fading-. Diazos > were often used as proof copies because of this very property (they > go away with time). I've also got a pile of old FAXes done on > thermal FAX paper. Also unreadable. > > Still, if anyone has any solid documentation on how to go about this, > I"m listening. > > --Chuck > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Aug 8 23:56:58 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 23:56:58 -0500 Subject: HP 98xx series cassette EOT-sensor fix : war story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5023431A.5000007@pico-systems.com> > Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 23:22:20 +0200 > From: "Rik Bos" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: HP 98xx series cassette EOT-sensor fix : war story > Message-ID: <001001cd75ab$e8416670$b8c43350$@xs4all.nl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Lately I acquired some HP 9865 cassette units and a HP 9821A three cassette > drives suffered from 'slow running' > > I found out the LDR's used in the EOT sensor are causing this behavior, the > used LDR's are from the NSL314 type which is practically unobtainable. > > The NSL314 is a IR-sensitive CDSe type LDR, replacing it with a standard low > resistance LDR doesn't do the trick, the LDR needs to have a resistance > lower then ~5k at low light. > > The most of the cassette drives also suffer from bad sensor bulb, replacing > the bulb by a white LED doesn't give enough light to do the trick. > > The combination white LED and new LDR isn't working because the LDR > resistance isn't getting low enough. > > The sensor amplifier circuit needs to be modified to work correct, I did > this by creating Wheatstone's bridge by adding a grounding resistor to the > LDR input. > > Adding a series resistor of 10k to LDR input and changing the feedback > resistor from 18k2 to 100k made the amplifier work correct with the > combination white LED and 'normal' CDS type LDR. > Why wouldn't you use an IR LED? Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 00:09:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 01:09:55 -0400 Subject: Anyone with information on the NA2000series modules? In-Reply-To: References: <1344475437.65380.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50234623.9000400@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2012 10:57 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > A post in another group remined me that I should ask about these. > These were small modules that plugged together a little like PC104, > as a stack. National Semiconductor made them. They used the NSC800 > processor. > I have several modules but the powersupply module had a battery > leak that destroyed some of the PC board and components. I was > wondering if others and any knowledge of these modules? > These are kind of cool, one I have came with Forth built in. Interesting, that'd be an 8080/Z80 Forth. Know anything about the Forth? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Aug 9 00:39:43 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 22:39:43 -0700 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40732E89-EAB9-433B-9497-C1F6B325706F@zipcon.net> from a couple websites, first... http://sunstuff.org/Sun-Hardware-Ref/s2hr/part3 The standard monochrome framebuffer, found in everything from the first Sun-2 to desktop SPARCs, and the 386i as well. Standard resolution is 1152 x 900 and high resolution is 1280 x 1024; other resolutions (1024 x 1024?) may exist. The very first implementations were TTL-only output levels, or switchable between TTL-only and TTL/ECL; everything since has been TTL/ECL. second. http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-sun3/1996/05/14/0000.html The line frequency (horizontal scan) rate for the high-res is 89.3Khz while that of the normal monitor is 61.8Khz. The field (vertical scan) rates are almost identical at 66Hz and 67Hz. I presume that the framebuffer is the following 501-1003 "Sun-2 Monochrome Video" Multibus (with keyboard/mouse) DEVICE: bwtwo RESOLUTION: 1152 x 900 POWER: 4A @ +5V if not, what is the sun part number on the board? From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 00:49:47 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 00:49:47 -0500 Subject: DEC SB11 info In-Reply-To: <50232229.5050004@mail.msu.edu> References: <5023173C.80907@mail.msu.edu> <50231E36.8000400@gmail.com> <50232229.5050004@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Hi Josh, It was rereferred to as the Shoe Box, and usually had a M7270, MXV11, and an RX interface. I think they came with a 18 bit backplane, but can be rewired for 22 bit. I have one around here somewhere. They also made a matching box with a pair of TU58s. Paul On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 8/8/2012 7:19 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >> On 8/8/2012 6:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> Anyone know anything about the DEC SB-11 enclosure? It's a small >>> (13"x12"x3.5" or so) chassis containing a power supply and a 4-slot >>> dual-height q-bus backplane. Very cute, and I want to put together a small >>> 11/23 system in it. Anyone know the original intended usage for these >>> little things? >>> >>> In particular, a power supply schematic would be helpful as the one in >>> mine is giving me trouble at the moment. (Just blows fuses when powered >>> up.) I can't find anything useful about it on the 'net. The full model >>> designation on this one is "OSB11-EA." >>> >>> Thanks as always, >>> Josh >> >> >> >> Is it the same as this one ? >> http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/pdp-11_23.htm >> >> Might be everything you need to know there. >> > > No, that looks like something else entirely. However, I just now noticed > another ID on this device, on the rear below the Digital logo; it appears > the full name for this chassis is BA11-VA. And already I'm finding a bit > more useful information :). > > Such as: http://www.pdp-11.nl/ba11-boxes/ba11va/ba11va-info.html. Mine looks > identical to that, except it says "SB11" in orange on the front next to the > Digital logo. Now to track down that schematic... > > Josh > > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Aug 9 00:52:06 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 06:52:06 +0100 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9FC57281A0164E56B34F0D7E7A3C874D@MailBox> So now we know. On Linkedin one David Carroll lists himself as owner of xx2247 LLC and former employee of Mentec. Well I must have missed the posts on this list as I can say that?s news to me. At least someone does own the rights and that can only be a good thing. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 08 August 2012 15:42 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems At 7:22 AM -0700 8/8/12, Al Kossow wrote: >On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >> > >Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several >times on this >list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC > >I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. I get the impression that he seems to like to stay out of sight. I typically forward requests like Earl's onto a Reseller I know (which I just did with his message). I've pointed out in the past that the fact that there is a rights holder needs to be advertised, as a lot of people can't figure out who to contact. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Aug 8 19:40:01 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:40:01 -0500 Subject: Looking for a vintage S100 power supply In-Reply-To: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com> References: <7479561d$68cfe2fb$51f4c14c$@com> Message-ID: <502306E1.90801@comcast.net> Thanks Bill, this is exactly what I was looking for! ------------------------------------------------ I just posted the MITS Altair 8800 Power supply specs with a link to the schematic on my web site, if you went the sensible route and bought something new with the same characteristics the original. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=486 Bill From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Aug 8 19:43:10 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:43:10 -0500 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5023079E.7040103@comcast.net> Yes I can confirm it is a issue with the video input at the wrong resolution and frequency. The bwtwo card is 1600x1280 and my monitor is made for 1024 lines of resolution. Hence, I need to use a different video card (the bwone). Thanks everyone for the help! -------------------------- On Aug 7, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Nick Allen wrote: >/ Here is a photo of the issue:https://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/Sun1Computer?authkey=Gv1sRgCIbH_7Hv0betKw#5774013074360649282 />/ />/ On 8/7/2012 10:57 AM, Nick Allen wrote: />>/ Hey everyone, I ma repairing a Sun 100U computer, and am having some issues I would love some help with. I am using a bwtwo video card with the Sun 100U CRT (its a 17" HD B&W phillips CRT). I am getting an image showing a successful boot, but I am getting a split double image (like split screen but the same image on both sides). Any ideas what is causing this, a frequency issue? Any jumpers/settings on the video card which may inadvertently cause this? Could it be a CRT issue? />/ / Horiz frequency issue. i was working for a place a while back that de-tuned sun monitors for macintoshes and for a specific fixed freq video card. for the life of me I don't remember how to reset the freq of the video card or if the bwtwo was capable of supporting different frequencies. From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Thu Aug 9 01:16:27 2012 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 07:16:27 +0100 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues Message-ID: <1344492987.2484.6.camel@entasis> [Forwarded by lawrence at ljw.me.uk] From: Tothwolf To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple 1 insanity continues Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 17:37:48 -0500 (CDT) [3rd attempt to send this to the list.] On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166 > > down to cloning the Christies box > > gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from I came across this link today: http://www.applefritter.com/content/seems-another-apple-1-replica-newton-1-sales According to posts there, the guy building them goes by the name "Mike Newton" and also has photos on Google+ at https://plus.google.com/u/1/photos/109866693740649982432/albums What I found odd in the Applefritter thread is that another person going by 'michael0623' started that thread, and then 'Mike Newton' shows up and mentions "michael0623 has helped to advertise a bit and he went further by helping me to list one set of Newton 1 on Ebay". This sure looks like spamming to me, but maybe someone else will spot something I missed. While 'Mike Newton' claims he didn't copy Mike Willegal's Apple I reproduction boards, it sure looks to me like he did. http://willegal.net/appleii/apple1.htm Supposedly this guy has made some sales, however I'm not buying his story. Anyone can do a buy-it-now on their own items, which is actually allowed per eBay policy, (although /bidding/ on one's own items is /not/ allowed). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251109274976 I call shenanigans. From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Thu Aug 9 01:22:35 2012 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 07:22:35 +0100 Subject: SGI IRIS 1400 mkboot and Ideal III tape images Message-ID: <1344493355.2484.8.camel@entasis> [Forwarded by lawrence at ljw.me.uk with links obfuscated] From: Tothwolf To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SGI IRIS 1400 mkboot and Ideal III tape images Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 17:39:24 -0500 (CDT) [2nd attempt to send this to the list.] I just found these tape images again while sorting out files and thought I'd post links here so these can be mirrored. I dumped both tapes about 10 years ago when I got them with the SGI IRIS 1400. These will probably only be of use to someone with one of these machines, but no one else I spoke with back when I got the machine had this software. I'm not sure if the mkboot tape is usable or not but I don't remember having any trouble reading either of the tapes. The tape.0 and tape.2 files both read as valid cpio archives, but tape.1 doesn't. These three tape.x files were separate partitions on the QIC tape. http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/SGI-IRIS-1400/MKBOOT-IRIS-1400.tar.gz MKBOOT TAPE INCLUDING /USR PARTITION FOR THE IRIS 1400 DATE 4/1/88 TAPE NO. 063/SG/005 http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/SGI-IRIS-1400/IDEAL-III.tar.gz IMAGE VISUAL SYSTEM SINGER Link-Miles 27 NOV 1987 IDEAL III CUSTOMER RELEASE TAPE FOR IRIS 1400 64 COLOR INCLUDING:- RUN FILES, MENUS, HELD FILES, KERMIT UTILITY FILES AND COMSEG D/BASES TAPE NO. 063/SG/004 From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 01:34:29 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 01:34:29 -0500 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <9FC57281A0164E56B34F0D7E7A3C874D@MailBox> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <9FC57281A0164E56B34F0D7E7A3C874D@MailBox> Message-ID: I have an RT11 license in my (or a company) name, in a folder somewhere along with numerous licenses from companies I have bought systems from in the past. I don't think they are assigned to a serial number, but some of the newer ones might be. Paul On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:52 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > So now we know. > On Linkedin one David Carroll lists himself as owner of xx2247 LLC and > former employee of Mentec. Well I must have missed the posts on this list as > I can say that?s news to me. At least someone does own the rights and that > can only be a good thing. > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 08 August 2012 15:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems > > At 7:22 AM -0700 8/8/12, Al Kossow wrote: >>On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >>> >> >>Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several >>times on this >>list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC >> >>I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. > > I get the impression that he seems to like to stay out of sight. I > typically forward requests like Earl's onto a Reseller I know (which > I just did with his message). > > I've pointed out in the past that the fact that there is a rights > holder needs to be advertised, as a lot of people can't figure out > who to contact. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Aug 9 01:37:04 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 07:37:04 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 8, 12 09:40:54 am Message-ID: <9952AB5A2ACA4192AB380108513283A6@MailBox> Hi Tony Quite a long answer but very interesting. Firstly let's establish credentials. Prior to 1975 when I joined DEC I was a development engineer and designed with TTL logic. I did a lot of work interfacing to PDP8's at Harwell and elsewhere. My final job before being approached by DEC was developing VDU's many of which ended up connected to 11/70 timesharing systems and the like. I have no excuse (other than a faulty memory) for not knowing how things were when many of the machines we are trying preserve were current. For a start let's look at how DEC Field Service looked after the system's. Yes they did board swapping but only because boards were much more available internally than components. In addition the boards had all the current ECO's (Engineering Change Order's) already done. Otherwise as well as a repair the poor guy would have to do those as well. So unless the boards in the system were fully up to date they would be swapped any way. The boards would go to a central facility in Hoofdorp in Holland where they would be ECO'd to the current level and repaired if needed. They then went back to FS stores in the various countries. Central London was an interesting situation. A Field Service Engineer driving around in all that traffic was not a good solution. What they did was to send a Black Cab to go and get a board set from FS stores and then pick up the Engineer or he would go to site by tube armed with the right diagnostics and his trusty Tektronix 465. Quite the best oscilloscope ever made. I have and use one to this day. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ????? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 08 August 2012 19:44 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > Well what do you know! > I thought my radical views would attract some adverse comments. DOn't worry, the flames wil lcome :-) > Instead I get agreement from a well known and established collector. If you mean me (as per the message you rplied to), I would not describe myself in that way :-) > > As you know I am ex-DEC and therefore concentrate on that make. > My goal is to restore back to running order as they left the factory. Mine too. In fact I will admit I know little about 'cosmetic repair and resotration'. To me a computer is interesting because it 'computes'. Not for the colour of the case paint :-). Others may welll have differnt views onthsi, and IMHO, that's a good thing (we can't all do everything) but anyway... My articles (for HPCC) on repariing HP9800 machines cover just about every 'workign part', even how to strip and rebuild the original coooling fan, but I say little, if anything, on restoring the case. > Whilst many computers and peripherals are well designed and look quite good > the essential point is what they can do and have done. It's the fact that > the same machine can be used for a myriad of tasks. > > This was the key point in Alan Turing's 1936 'On Computable Numbers'. > > So two identical computers sitting alongside each but turned off are the > same thing. Turn them on and one controls traffic lights and the other holds > medical records. Therein lies the reason to restore to working condition and > not to static display or store them. YEs. A computer is not, and never will be, a piece of 'fine art', and for a museum to treat it in the same way as, say, an Old Master painting is to show a fundamental lack of understanding of this IMHO. COmptuers were used, they were repaired. Very rarely do yoy get an old machine where every part is origianl, just as it left the factory. And while a museum should attempt to preserve the 'fabric' of the machine as much as possible, that should not (IMHO) be at the expense of not running the machine. By all means keep logs of waht wa changed, repalced, not original, etc. But still keep the machine running. For my eersonal colelction (which is not a museum and neve will be), my policy is to perform any reversable modificaion which keeps the thing operaitonal. I'll even drill new mounting holes if I have to repalce a component. But nothing more. I preserve the electronic design of the machine, even the PSU and fan motor driver (!). SO I'll replace a ragulator transistor that's failed, but won't replace the entire PSU with a PC PSU. I'd amke a homebrew add-on board to expand the machine, interface it to , but said board must be able to work without modifications and will be clearly labelled to indicate it's not original. > I cannot see why known hobby restorers are never approached by museums > saying 'We have an XYZ123 system in store. If you restore it to working > order then it will go on display with a small card saying restored by Joe > Bloggs or whoever.' This reverses the donation flow, does not deplete the > private collection stock and brings more items into display at little or no > cost. This is one of my biggest moans about a certain computer museum over here. They will not accept that hobbyists are a useful resource. Or at leat, they asked me what 4 (IIRC) machines I had knowledge off. Darn it. that varies with time. And anyway, I might have rather more of a clue on a machien that I've never seen than some other people There is also the issue that repairing a machien now is very different to repairing it when it was in use, and when there were 'swap kits' of known-good boards, etc available. No, I am not advocting board-swpaping (we all know my views on that), but it's even more pointless if you don't have known-good boards to swap in. What this leads to is that the skills of a field service engineer, or even a depor service engineer from the company when the machine was in current use are perhaps less valualbe for restoring said machine in a museum than the skills of a hobbyist who's taught himself how to work on simialr machiens and debugs them from the ground up And yet I've yet to find a museum in the UK that recognises this. -tony From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Aug 9 01:43:39 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 07:43:39 +0100 Subject: DEC SB11 info In-Reply-To: <5023173C.80907@mail.msu.edu> References: <5023173C.80907@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <98A2C1B818424271A6C1D1ACCF669432@MailBox> Yes SB or shoe box 11. Sold by DEC Components Group to OEM's as an enclosure for 11/23 board sets. Unusual in that it was black and silver as opposed to the normal DEC beige Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: 09 August 2012 02:50 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC SB11 info Hi all -- Anyone know anything about the DEC SB-11 enclosure? It's a small (13"x12"x3.5" or so) chassis containing a power supply and a 4-slot dual-height q-bus backplane. Very cute, and I want to put together a small 11/23 system in it. Anyone know the original intended usage for these little things? In particular, a power supply schematic would be helpful as the one in mine is giving me trouble at the moment. (Just blows fuses when powered up.) I can't find anything useful about it on the 'net. The full model designation on this one is "OSB11-EA." Thanks as always, Josh From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Aug 9 01:56:49 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 07:56:49 +0100 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <5022F828.4080108@compsys.to> References: <5022F22E.8020305@update.uu.se> <5022F828.4080108@compsys.to> Message-ID: As HP are quite happy with licensing VMS 7.3 for VAX and 8.3 for Alpha free of charge to Hobbyists who are members of HPUG. I can't see an issue with PDP-11 OS's Not only that but you can download applications like a secure web browser also FOC to HPUG members. I have a nice DEC 3000 (Alpha) with VMS 8.3, DecWindows, and HP Secure Web Browser. Not the fastest system on earth but its over twenty years old and does much the same as a PC with Windows 7 and Internet explorer. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: 09 August 2012 00:37 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >On 2012-08-08 23:17, Mouse wrote: > >>> >The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC >> >> With a name like that it's clearly someone who actually has some DEC >> clue, not just a random holding company. I'd call that good. > > As Al Kossov alluded to, the "someone" is Dave Carroll. Ex. DEC, ex > Mentec, and the last person around at Mentec who did the development > of this software. XX2247.LLC has been inactive for a number of years. The name refers to the special key used to lock a DEC console. The web site specifies "Under Construction". You can do a search at whois. Now that you have confirmed this publicly (well at least to the few individuals who might actually care), I can say that I arrived at the same conclusion a few months ago. When I attempted to contact Dave at the location where he actually works (after all, owning the company which owns the rights to the PDP-11 software IP will no longer pay the bills), Dave neglected to return my phone calls and e-mails. At my age, I can't remember the name of that company, but I seem to remember the name starts with "A". > Yes, it is a good sign. However, don't anyone hold their breath. The > age old problem of HP still have a controlling interest in all this is > still around and just as unsolved as ever before. When DEC sold the rights to the IP for the software to Mentec, DEC probably retained a veto on most decisions with respect to hobby use. HP now has that control. In addition, even commercial use now seems to be blocked as far as the purchase of a license is concerned. My guess is that until the issues are resolved, Dave and everyone else are keeping quite. Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Aug 9 02:15:15 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 03:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <40732E89-EAB9-433B-9497-C1F6B325706F@zipcon.net> References: <40732E89-EAB9-433B-9497-C1F6B325706F@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <201208090715.DAA24114@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > http://sunstuff.org/Sun-Hardware-Ref/s2hr/part3 > The standard monochrome framebuffer, found in everything from the > first Sun-2 to desktop SPARCs, and the 386i as well. Standard > resolution is 1152 x 900 and high resolution is 1280 x 1024; other > resolutions (1024 x 1024?) may exist. I have an sbus bwtwo which is capable of 1600x1280. For a time I used that as my main head, but the framebuffer has DE9 output, which, while strictly not very relevant, correlates with its using logic-level video rather than traditional video. I had one monitor which took that signal level and was capable of 1600x1280, but it's dimmed into uselessness. :-( Not quite where the thread started, since it's SBus rather than VME, but if we're now discussing "Sun-2 to desktop SPARCs" it might be of some interest, and there definitely do exist bwtwos with higher resolution that 1280x1024. Mouse From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Aug 9 02:40:20 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 09:40:20 +0200 Subject: HP 98xx series cassette EOT-sensor fix : war story In-Reply-To: <5023431A.5000007@pico-systems.com> References: <5023431A.5000007@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <001501cd7602$3e333d50$ba99b7f0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Jon Elson > Verzonden: donderdag 9 augustus 2012 6:57 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP 98xx series cassette EOT-sensor fix : war story > > > > Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 23:22:20 +0200 > > From: "Rik Bos" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Subject: HP 98xx series cassette EOT-sensor fix : war story > > Message-ID: <001001cd75ab$e8416670$b8c43350$@xs4all.nl> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Lately I acquired some HP 9865 cassette units and a HP 9821A three > > cassette drives suffered from 'slow running' > > > > I found out the LDR's used in the EOT sensor are causing this > > behavior, the used LDR's are from the NSL314 type which is practically > unobtainable. > > > > The NSL314 is a IR-sensitive CDSe type LDR, replacing it with a > > standard low resistance LDR doesn't do the trick, the LDR needs to > > have a resistance lower then ~5k at low light. > > > > The most of the cassette drives also suffer from bad sensor bulb, > > replacing the bulb by a white LED doesn't give enough light to do the trick. > > > > The combination white LED and new LDR isn't working because the LDR > > resistance isn't getting low enough. > > > > The sensor amplifier circuit needs to be modified to work correct, I > > did this by creating Wheatstone's bridge by adding a grounding > > resistor to the LDR input. > > > > Adding a series resistor of 10k to LDR input and changing the feedback > > resistor from 18k2 to 100k made the amplifier work correct with the > > combination white LED and 'normal' CDS type LDR. > > > Why wouldn't you use an IR LED? > Because CDSe LDR's are nearly unobtainable, I looked at the usual sources (farnell, digikey, RS, eBay, etc) no one can deliver a CDSe LDR with the right diameter (~5mm) Silonex has one in its datasheet but that one is also unobtainable, and I like to have the items working. -Rik From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Aug 9 03:59:33 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 10:59:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Forward Delay of posts? In-Reply-To: <5022FED8.7030304@compsys.to> References: <5022FED8.7030304@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > What I am curious about is the 20 minute delay from when my > reply was sent to classiccmp vs the time the reply was received > back from classiccmp? Is a 20 minute delay normal? > > I know that classiccmp has a delay of at least 5 minutes whereas > another list I monitor responds almost immediately. Any comments? Classiccmp is very indeterministic. I often get the replies to a posting long before the original posting. It apparently depends on who writes from where. Christian From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Thu Aug 9 04:00:19 2012 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:00:19 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems Message-ID: <00b301cd760d$66d4ffe0$347effa0$@liftoff.at> Check out this link .. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-carroll/13/791/a07 Best regards Gerhard From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Aug 9 04:03:57 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 10:03:57 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5022D1F8.24049.2A43560@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> <5022D1F8.24049.2A43560@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 9 August 2012 04:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Makes me wonder what archaeologists a thousand years hence will think > of our landfills. I wonder if we're starting the "Great Dark Age" > where almost nothing will be known, because, you know, it's all on > the Web... We're already there. > > I feel that way sometimes when looking for old software and hardware > information. Sure, archive.org has a lot of stuff, but it doesn't > archive *everything*. Inevitably, it's that missing bit that I > really need. While the likes of archive.org are indeed doing their best to preserve websites, some things come and go without any form of preservation, and of course, there was all the stuff going on /before/ WWW took off - e.g. My own interests are in the old British Telecom/GPO "Prestel" viewdata service - developed in the 1970s, it ran publicly 1979-1995, providing pretty much everything we use the 'net for today for the UK. But it was a single supplier-run service rather than the distributed systems we see now. It was sold off, then closed, and nobody seems to have kept even a backup tape; at least a quarter of a million pages of information and a couple of decades of work for countless people just gone... and that's just one of many services. Lots of countries tried setting up viewdata services, some with more success than others. Minitel has only just closed this year - I wonder what they did to preserve anything. And then there re the other big alternatives - CompuServe, AOL, CIX, Prodigy, just to pull a few names out of the hat. All systems people poured their lives into. All gone. Rob www.viewdata.org.uk From reiche at ls-al.eu Thu Aug 9 04:20:10 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 11:20:10 +0200 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <00b301cd760d$66d4ffe0$347effa0$@liftoff.at> References: <00b301cd760d$66d4ffe0$347effa0$@liftoff.at> Message-ID: <201208090920.q799KAXc001228@ls-al.eu> "Gerhard Kreuzer" wrote: > > Check out this link .. > > http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-carroll/13/791/a07 > Also on Google+ https://plus.google.com/u/0/104560031285123036919/posts re, Sander From colineby at isallthat.com Thu Aug 9 04:48:57 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 10:48:57 +0100 Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> It occurred to me that the classic computer community could more actively adopt the model used by car collectors to track survival, rarity, and provenance/history of their objects. Has this been tried? Say something like an HP 211x or early DEC PDPs register for instance? Has anyone had experience with the success, or utility of this type of thing? What got me thinking along these lines is the difference between perception and reality over the relative rarity and value of systems. People often make judgement calls base on personal affinities rather than anything empirical. I've noted the disparity between people saying like, 'wow a straight PDP 8', and opposed to ... 'ah that's just a Xerox word processor.' One measure is their presence in the marketplace. How many 860s do you really see compare to PDP8s? In my world I actually can put hands on three of the former and only one of the latter. Just an example of course, but we all talk about relative rarity with only production statistics to go on, and sometimes not even that. Oddly, sometimes that is a poor indicator of survival, and therefore rarity. Thoughts? "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >At 7:22 AM -0700 8/8/12, Al Kossow wrote: >>On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >>> >> >>Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several >>times on this >>list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC >> >>I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. > >I get the impression that he seems to like to stay out of sight. I >typically forward requests like Earl's onto a Reseller I know (which >I just did with his message). > >I've pointed out in the past that the fact that there is a rights >holder needs to be advertised, as a lot of people can't figure out >who to contact. > >Zane > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | -- Colin From trash80 at internode.on.net Thu Aug 9 06:22:04 2012 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 21:22:04 +1000 Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> Message-ID: <00b401cd7621$35b95870$a12c0950$@on.net> Is this sort of what you're talking about or similar... http://www.old-computers.com/news/default.asp ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby Sent: Thursday, 9 August 2012 19:49 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Rare systems register It occurred to me that the classic computer community could more actively adopt the model used by car collectors to track survival, rarity, and provenance/history of their objects. Has this been tried? Say something like an HP 211x or early DEC PDPs register for instance? Has anyone had experience with the success, or utility of this type of thing? What got me thinking along these lines is the difference between perception and reality over the relative rarity and value of systems. People often make judgement calls base on personal affinities rather than anything empirical. I've noted the disparity between people saying like, 'wow a straight PDP 8', and opposed to ... 'ah that's just a Xerox word processor.' One measure is their presence in the marketplace. How many 860s do you really see compare to PDP8s? In my world I actually can put hands on three of the former and only one of the latter. Just an example of course, but we all talk about relative rarity with only production statistics to go on, and sometimes not even that. Oddly, sometimes that is a poor indicator of survival, and therefore rarity. Thoughts? "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >At 7:22 AM -0700 8/8/12, Al Kossow wrote: >>On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >>> >> >>Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several >>times on this list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC >> >>I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. > >I get the impression that he seems to like to stay out of sight. I >typically forward requests like Earl's onto a Reseller I know (which I >just did with his message). > >I've pointed out in the past that the fact that there is a rights >holder needs to be advertised, as a lot of people can't figure out who >to contact. > >Zane > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | -- Colin From laurens at daemon.be Thu Aug 9 06:57:52 2012 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:57:52 +0200 Subject: HP Visualize C8000 In-Reply-To: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> References: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <062138a8aeb369023d8c49f243b5f753@daemon.be> > Any other PA-RISC users onlist? Any gotchas? The last Visualize I > worked on > was a C3750, so that was a little behind this generation. I just > don't have > the space for a K-class, tho. 8) Time to dust off my Visualizes I guess :) C3750 and C240 owner here, but it's been a while since I played with them... From vigor at chariot.net.au Wed Aug 8 06:17:19 2012 From: vigor at chariot.net.au (Susan Freebairn) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 20:47:19 +0930 Subject: IBM 7090 documents and tapes- follow on In-Reply-To: References: <79601F8D295543BB81B16A5B82D37B4D@vostro> Message-ID: <003501cd7557$60be6f30$223b4d90$@net.au> We currently house the former WRE 7090 on our farm in South Australia. We have what appears to be the complete computer system as it was turned off, with 7090 computer hardware including a 1401 front end and magnetic tape drives - about 20 large cabinets in all. All computer manuals are included, with program printouts for system programs and diagnostics, as well as punched cards for loading and scheduling jobs via the 1401. We are not looking for more documents or tapes. A couple of our manuals are somewhat damaged, and some of our punched cards have been dropped, damaged or lost, but in general there seems to be enough backup documentation in good condition to recover any lost programs or data. We are interested to know what other 7090's there are still relatively intact, and what, if any, work is being put into their systems. The 7090 would not be a cheap computer to run, as it uses huge amounts of power and therefore needs considerable air conditioning. In its latter years after the ESRO space program finished, the WRE 7090 was used amongst other things for recording mineral exploration data. There is at least one Australian company using restored 7090 magnetic tape drives with programs emulating the 7090 magnetic tape drivers to recover this stored data. It is interesting that the magnetic tapes are still readable after so many years in the South Australian Department of Mines environmentally controlled storage. Susan Freebairn _____ From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu To: lawrence at ljw.me.uk; cube1 at charter.net; michaelv at virginiairrigation.net; henridhosty at hotmail.com; IanK at vulcan.com; cctech at classiccmp.org; aek at bitsavers.org; wdonzelli at gmail.com; lin.jones at tnmoc.org; scmobjectenquiries at ScienceMuseum.ac.uk Subject: Fw: To all with interest in IBM 7090 - follow on Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 11:21:40 +0100 Guys, Original email attached. Two new thoughts: * I do seem to have generated some strong interest for the 7090 documentation, which is good. And some controversy as to who should receive these bits: US or UK (perhaps Australia?). The 7090 was an American invention but this one was used in the UK. Perhaps each of you with a strong interest could make a case to us for receiving this material. The decision of the deceased owner's family, the clearing team and myself to be final. * Something which might influence decisions: the materials are paper, metal and plastic. The paper is slightly damp, the metal has corroded in some cases and the plastic has some mould patches. None of which make the material unusable in any way but I thought I must be clear on this point. I should have done so in the original email, sorry. Kind regards, peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Van Peborgh To: cube1 at charter.net ; michaelv at virginiairrigation.net ; henridhosty at hotmail.com ; IanK at vulcan.com ; cctech at classiccmp.org ; aek at bitsavers.org ; wdonzelli at gmail.com ; lin.jones at tnmoc.org ; scmobjectenquiries at ScienceMuseum.ac.uk Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 12:21 PM Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 Guys, I am sending this to all who have registered an interest in the IBM 7090 and museums. Sorry if I got some people wrong! This computer started life at AWRE in the UK (nuclear weapons design?!) and finished in the Medical Computing department at Manchester Uni in 1970, where it ran for 10-20 years. It had 4 channels, 32K memory, card reader, card punch, 300 LPM barrel printer and ?20 mag tapes. It also had an IBM 1401 for printer I/O. I have now surveyed the stuff available. There is no hardware. It is a lot of (probably complete) hardware documentation, cicuit diagrams, s/w documentation (IBSYS, etc) also. Also a lot of mag tapes of mixed content and some card trays of mixed content. Are any of you out there interested? It is all quite heavy so transport will be a challenge, but surmountable! The stuff will be available in the first week of September. Any sensible offers will be considered. It might go on eBay but I will wait until you guys respond first. Kind regards, peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From jonas at otter.se Thu Aug 9 03:56:03 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 10:56:03 +0200 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <741349baa9b328f68b4d4a42b9b99d65@otter.se> On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:53:48 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > He was > well-regarded by his colleagues, and displeased when I suggested that > a > TEACHER of FORTRAN should surely be ably to debug such an obvious > error, > for his was too highly evolved a mind to concern itself with whether > it > should be a comma or a full-stop between the device number and the > FORMAT > statement number in a WRITE statement (such being the ways of the > Grand > Academy of Lagado, and most of the rest of Academia). When he moved > to a > different university a few years later, I was given his job, starting > with > teaching FORTRAN, now on 5150 with MS-FORTRAN. http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2012-08-05/ /Jonas From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Aug 9 08:21:43 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:21:43 +0100 Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> Message-ID: Good Idea It would be nice to track the history of a system from the day it left the factory to its current location. I doubt the manufacturing and field service histories survive on many systems. The most likely DEC candidates with a history would be DEC 10's and 20's. There used to be a publication called something like The Computer Users Year Book. It listed most of the computer installations in the UK at the time. The really rare computers did not come from the large players but smaller science/engineering led companies. I can think of two in the UK Digico - Micro 16V (Two known examples survive) Arcturus - One known example. Then there was the next tier up MODCOMP, Data General, Burroughs, Datapoint and so on. So registering who has a system not made by IBM or DEC in working order (or could be made to work) and with some history behind it would be well worth recording. ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby Sent: 09 August 2012 10:49 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Rare systems register It occurred to me that the classic computer community could more actively adopt the model used by car collectors to track survival, rarity, and provenance/history of their objects. Has this been tried? Say something like an HP 211x or early DEC PDPs register for instance? Has anyone had experience with the success, or utility of this type of thing? What got me thinking along these lines is the difference between perception and reality over the relative rarity and value of systems. People often make judgement calls base on personal affinities rather than anything empirical. I've noted the disparity between people saying like, 'wow a straight PDP 8', and opposed to ... 'ah that's just a Xerox word processor.' One measure is their presence in the marketplace. How many 860s do you really see compare to PDP8s? In my world I actually can put hands on three of the former and only one of the latter. Just an example of course, but we all talk about relative rarity with only production statistics to go on, and sometimes not even that. Oddly, sometimes that is a poor indicator of survival, and therefore rarity. Thoughts? "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >At 7:22 AM -0700 8/8/12, Al Kossow wrote: >>On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >>> >> >>Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several >>times on this >>list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC >> >>I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. > >I get the impression that he seems to like to stay out of sight. I >typically forward requests like Earl's onto a Reseller I know (which >I just did with his message). > >I've pointed out in the past that the fact that there is a rights >holder needs to be advertised, as a lot of people can't figure out >who to contact. > >Zane > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | -- Colin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 09:27:28 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 07:27:28 -0700 Subject: Anyone with information on the NA2000series modules? In-Reply-To: <50234623.9000400@neurotica.com> References: <1344475437.65380.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <50234623.9000400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi It was a ROMed version of one of the FIG varients that was popular at the time. I don't recall which one. I may try to power a module up and add a serial terminal to see what it is. As I recall, the power module also had the reset circuit and backup battery for CMOS RAM ( the problem here ). I don't have the pinout for the modules and without the supply working, it'd take a while. None of the ICs are in packages. They are all mounted under black blobs on the PC boards. This was done to keep it small. Dwight > Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 01:09:55 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Anyone with information on the NA2000series modules? > > On 08/08/2012 10:57 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > A post in another group remined me that I should ask about these. > > These were small modules that plugged together a little like PC104, > > as a stack. National Semiconductor made them. They used the NSC800 > > processor. > > I have several modules but the powersupply module had a battery > > leak that destroyed some of the PC board and components. I was > > wondering if others and any knowledge of these modules? > > These are kind of cool, one I have came with Forth built in. > > Interesting, that'd be an 8080/Z80 Forth. Know anything about the Forth? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 09:42:51 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 07:42:51 -0700 Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: References: , <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org>, , <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com>, Message-ID: Hi I have some rare machines but it is hard to know how rare. The Nicolet 1080 I have was in a group of only about 375 made. To my knowledge, there are only 5 still around to day and only 2 known to be running. Other things have value but are not particularly rare. These are just popular, like an IMSAI 8800. Some, I know are rare but have no idea how many there may be, like the SIM-4 4004 system. I would suppose the NA2000 modules would qualify as rare since most have never seen them before. Dwight > From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Rare systems register > Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:21:43 +0100 > > > > Good Idea > > It would be nice to track the history of a system from the day it > left the factory to its current location. > > I doubt the manufacturing and field service histories survive on many > systems. The most likely DEC candidates with a history would be DEC 10's and > 20's. There used to be a publication called something like The Computer > Users Year Book. It listed most of the computer installations in the UK at > the time. > > The really rare computers did not come from the large players but smaller > science/engineering led companies. I can think of two in the UK > > Digico - Micro 16V (Two known examples survive) > Arcturus - One known example. > > Then there was the next tier up MODCOMP, Data General, Burroughs, Datapoint > and so on. So registering who has a system not made by IBM or DEC in working > order (or could be made to work) and with some history behind it would be > well worth recording. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Colin Eby > Sent: 09 August 2012 10:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Rare systems register > > It occurred to me that the classic computer community could more actively > adopt the model used by car collectors to track survival, rarity, and > provenance/history of their objects. Has this been tried? Say something like > an HP 211x or early DEC PDPs register for instance? Has anyone had > experience with the success, or utility of this type of thing? > > What got me thinking along these lines is the difference between perception > and reality over the relative rarity and value of systems. People often make > judgement calls base on personal affinities rather than anything empirical. > I've noted the disparity between people saying like, 'wow a straight PDP 8', > and opposed to ... 'ah that's just a Xerox word processor.' One measure is > their presence in the marketplace. How many 860s do you really see compare > to PDP8s? In my world I actually can put hands on three of the former and > only one of the latter. Just an example of course, but we all talk about > relative rarity with only production statistics to go on, and sometimes not > even that. Oddly, sometimes that is a poor indicator of survival, and > therefore rarity. > > Thoughts? > > > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >At 7:22 AM -0700 8/8/12, Al Kossow wrote: > >>On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >>>It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. > >>> > >> > >>Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several > >>times on this > >>list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC > >> > >>I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. > > > >I get the impression that he seems to like to stay out of sight. I > >typically forward requests like Earl's onto a Reseller I know (which > >I just did with his message). > > > >I've pointed out in the past that the fact that there is a rights > >holder needs to be advertised, as a lot of people can't figure out > >who to contact. > > > >Zane > > > > > > > >-- > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > >| | Photographer | > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >| My flickr Photostream | > >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > >| My Photography Website | > >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > -- Colin > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 9 09:57:26 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 07:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: from dwight elvey at "Aug 9, 12 07:42:51 am" Message-ID: <201208091457.q79EvQtc12189864@floodgap.com> > I have some rare machines but it is hard to know how rare. I think we will find lots of one-offs and unusual systems that aren't per se worth much because they have little brand recognition. Alpha Micros are uncommon, but no one remembers them, for example, while Apple Twentieth Anniversary Macintoshes exist in greater numbers but have far greater notoriety (and sell at much higher prices). A rare machines register would be quite full of these unusual, low-volume systems no one has ever heard of. Which would be beneficial in its own right, but unexpected, I would think. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. -- Socrates ----------- From saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Aug 9 10:03:44 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Subject: Re: [rescue] "bloated pig X11" Message-ID: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> There was the Sun SuperMerge (on the side - what software used the NeWS portion of that? Anyone here used the straight Sun NeWS? NeWS seems to be difficult to find information on besides the Don Hopkins site), there was also the 4Sight implementation for IRIX 4D1-3.x. In common with the later DOMAIN DM implementations it, too, came with an X server that could be run on top. NeWS is one of those things that is in my "interested to find more out about, but probably not interested in programming" because of the additional PostScript layer on top. Did they have any IDEs to help with that? I remember reading about a new "UNIXy" window system project that seemed to leverage many of the points discussed above, but the authors had completely ignored network transparency. That's the sort of thing that seems needless fluff until you start to use it, then the network features of X become very convenient. I can't remember the name right now, however. Seems that useless stylistic effects were amply provided for in it. From colineby at isallthat.com Thu Aug 9 10:14:21 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 16:14:21 +0100 Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: <00b401cd7621$35b95870$a12c0950$@on.net> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> <00b401cd7621$35b95870$a12c0950$@on.net> Message-ID: <2fcadc8e-065b-4a78-9a05-0324345ebefb@email.android.com> Yes, I had that site very much in mind, but upside down -- you know, system centric rather than collector centric. I didn't remember there was type search engine before, but I hadn't been on there in some time. In fact, that site suits the purpose very well though I'd love to see some different ways of presenting the system type data rather than just the pull down search. But certainly no need to reinvent the wheel. That's always been a pretty great site. Kevin Parker wrote: >Is this sort of what you're talking about or similar... > >http://www.old-computers.com/news/default.asp > > >++++++++++ >Kevin Parker > >++++++++++ > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby >Sent: Thursday, 9 August 2012 19:49 >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Rare systems register > >It occurred to me that the classic computer community could more >actively adopt the model used by car collectors to track survival, >rarity, and provenance/history of their objects. Has this been tried? >Say something like an HP 211x or early DEC PDPs register for instance? >Has anyone had experience with the success, or utility of this type of >thing? > >What got me thinking along these lines is the difference between >perception and reality over the relative rarity and value of systems. >People often make judgement calls base on personal affinities rather >than anything empirical. I've noted the disparity between people saying >like, 'wow a straight PDP 8', and opposed to ... 'ah that's just a >Xerox word processor.' One measure is their presence in the >marketplace. How many 860s do you really see compare to PDP8s? In my >world I actually can put hands on three of the former and only one of >the latter. Just an example of course, but we all talk about relative >rarity with only production statistics to go on, and sometimes not even >that. Oddly, sometimes that is a poor indicator of survival, and >therefore rarity. > >Thoughts? > > > >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >>At 7:22 AM -0700 8/8/12, Al Kossow wrote: >>>On 8/7/12 11:20 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>>It's a mystery .. no one seems to know. >>>> >>> >>>Quite a few people on this list know, and they have said it several >>>times on this list. The rights were bought from Mentec by XX2247, LLC >>> >>>I think Dave has been busy with other things, though. >> >>I get the impression that he seems to like to stay out of sight. I >>typically forward requests like Earl's onto a Reseller I know (which I > >>just did with his message). >> >>I've pointed out in the past that the fact that there is a rights >>holder needs to be advertised, as a lot of people can't figure out who > >>to contact. >> >>Zane >> >> >> >>-- >>| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >>| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >>| | Photographer | >>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >>| My flickr Photostream | >>| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >>| My Photography Website | >>| http://www.zanesphotography.com | > >-- Colin -- Colin From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 9 10:29:01 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 08:29:01 -0700 Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: References: <5022F22E.8020305@update.uu.se> <5022F828.4080108@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5023D73D.9070808@bitsavers.org> On 8/8/12 11:56 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > As HP are quite happy with licensing VMS 7.3 for VAX and 8.3 for Alpha free > of charge to Hobbyists who are members of HPUG. I can't see an issue with > PDP-11 OS's > These systems have champions on the inside that can make things happen. It is actually a lot more complicated than that, and as I understand it there is a business reason for wanting to keep VMS usage numbers up. There is no one left who can do that for any of the PDP systems. I tried using the channel that CHM had for the other non-commercial licenses from HP in the past and didn't get anywhere. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 9 10:36:54 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 09:36:54 -0600 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <1344492987.2484.6.camel@entasis> References: <1344492987.2484.6.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <5023D916.8010905@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/9/2012 12:16 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I call shenanigans. Not just yet. Unicorn Electronics is having a apple 1 kit for $749.99. No pcb or roms. Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 9 10:36:31 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 08:36:31 -0700 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <201208090715.DAA24114@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <40732E89-EAB9-433B-9497-C1F6B325706F@zipcon.net> <201208090715.DAA24114@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5023D8FF.4010406@bitsavers.org> On 8/9/12 12:15 AM, Mouse wrote: >> http://sunstuff.org/Sun-Hardware-Ref/s2hr/part3 > >> The standard monochrome framebuffer, found in everything from the >> first Sun-2 to desktop SPARCs, and the 386i as well. Standard >> resolution is 1152 x 900 and high resolution is 1280 x 1024; other >> resolutions (1024 x 1024?) may exist. > A 100U doesn't use a BW2 card, which was designed by Sun Microsystems. It uses the earlier SUN workstation card designed at Stanford. The 100U was a 'brain transplant' for the original SUN-1 CPU card, replacing the CPU with a Sun-2 CPU and memory, but leaving the rest of the cards alone. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sun1/800-0345_Sun-1_System_Ref_Man_Jul82 page 51 the resolution is 1024 x 800 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 9 10:53:37 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:53:37 +0200 Subject: Vintage SCSI drives for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, I am always looking for disks like this. Regards Rob On 8 August 2012 20:03, Liam Proven wrote: > Starting the big clearout... Thought these might be of interest hereabouts: > > IBM WDS-3160S 160MB SCSI hard drive > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271033047930 > > IBM type 661 330MB SCSI hard disk > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271033050365 > > Quantum Prodrive 210s vintage 210MB SCSI hard drive > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271033044140 > > Also a vintage Mac but that's probably less interesting. ;-) > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Aug 9 11:57:47 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:57:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: What tools do you use/recommend for content dumping of PALs/PLAs/GALs/EPROMs ? Message-ID: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> I'd like to ask the list, what kind of tools/porgrams do you use in order to dump especially older device types as we can find it in older computer equipment? A couple of years back, I was lucky to use an old system at University in order to dump PAL and EPROM contents of my Onyx C8000 and from a DEC DELUA board. But since then, I've never had accessibility to such tools and I'l like to obtain/purchase one in order to go on with programmable device content saving. Any suggestions? Hints? Experiences? Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 12:21:23 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 11:21:23 -0600 Subject: NeWS (was: [rescue] "bloated pig X11") In-Reply-To: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8 at webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>, Scott Quinn writes: > [...] (on the side - what software used the NeWS > portion of that? Anyone here used the straight Sun NeWS? NeWS seems to be > difficult to find information on besides the Don Hopkins site) I obtained a large pile of Sun NeWS stuff from Shawn Rutledge via cctalk. I haven't yet gotten around to scanning the documentation and archiving the media. However, I'm not aware of any significant or commercial application for Sun or SGI workstations using the actual NeWS portion of it. There was very little to no development support for it. I experimented with making a simple UI in NeWS on the SGI Personal IRIS while a graduate student at the University of Utah in 1988. I'm the only person I know at UU who ever attempted such a thing and I think I've only heard of one or two other programmers who ever attempted such a thing. It was very, very painful. Making a UI in X11 was far easier, even if you did it "by hand" using Xlib and not Xt. > [...] In common with the later > DOMAIN DM implementations it, too, came with an X server that could be run > on top. I have been attempting to find details on the Apollo DOMAIN/OS windowing environment before they started running X11, but so far haven't been able to find much of anything. Even the X11 Display PostScript extension wasn't used much by applications except for some niche markets like desktop publishing. The benefits are too few for most applications. NeXTStep includes Display Postscript under the covers, but I don't think actual applications really used it -- they used the objects in the UI framework instead. Those objects could just have easily implemented their rendering with X11 and probably noone except the most ardent of typographical rendering freaks would have noticed the difference. > NeWS is one of those things that is in my "interested to find more > out about, but probably not interested in programming" because of the > additional PostScript layer on top. Did they have any IDEs to help with > that? No IDE support. If you want to get a feel for what it's like to program in NeWS, just start playing around with PostScript. NeWS is a very thin veneer on top of PS. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 9 12:36:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 10:36:01 -0700 Subject: What tools do you use/recommend for content dumping of PALs/PLAs/GALs/EPROMs ? In-Reply-To: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50239291.11344.87BAF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2012 at 17:57, P Gebhardt wrote: > I'd like to ask the list, what kind of tools/porgrams do you use in > order to dump especially older device types as we can find it in older > computer equipment? A couple of years back, I was lucky to use an old > system at University in order to dump PAL and EPROM contents of my > Onyx C8000 and from a DEC DELUA board. But since then, I've never had > accessibility to such tools and I'l like to obtain/purchase one in > order to go on with programmable device content saving. I'm assuming that the subject PALs have had the security fuses blown, so that it's impossible to simply read the contents of the fuse map using a programmer. As long as it's simple combinatorial logic with no feedback terms in PAL, it's simple enough to do a "brute force" dump. You may want to see my blog over at vintage-computer.com on the subject. I show how dumps were done for an AT&T 6300 video PAL, a Soundblaster PAL and a Trantor SCSI adapter PAL. Registered PALs and PALs with internal feedback are another kettle of fish--I don't know of any easy way to crack that nut. I did my dumps using nothing more than simple TTL logic feeding into a parallel port on a PC. If I had to do it over, I'd probably use a small MCU.to do the deed. I don't see why EPROMs can't be dumped by a similar brute force method. I used this method to dump a couple of bipolar PROMs; one from the IBM PC XT and the other from a "bus correction" PROM from the 6300. In both cases, we found that it was possible to recode the contents as GAL equations. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 9 12:39:05 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 12:39:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: What tools do you use/recommend for content dumping of PALs/PLAs/GALs/EPROMs ? In-Reply-To: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, P Gebhardt wrote: > I'd like to ask the list, what kind of tools/porgrams do you use in order to dump especially older device types as we can find it in older computer equipment? > A couple of years back, I was lucky to use an old system at University in order to dump PAL and EPROM contents of my Onyx C8000 and from a DEC DELUA board. > But since then, I've never had accessibility to such tools and I'l like to obtain/purchase one in order to go on with programmable device content saving. > > Any suggestions? Hints? Experiences? I've used a number of different systems, and I'm currently on the hunt for a newer setup to handle some of the more modern parts. Two email lists I can refer you to though are: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Data_IO_EPROM/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chipmasters/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 12:39:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:39:16 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: [rescue] "bloated pig X11" In-Reply-To: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5023F5C4.9050503@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2012 11:03 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > There was the Sun SuperMerge (on the side - what software used the > NeWS portion of that? Anyone here used the straight Sun NeWS? NeWS > seems to be difficult to find information on besides the Don Hopkins > site), there was also the 4Sight implementation for IRIX 4D1-3.x. In > common with the later DOMAIN DM implementations it, too, came with an > X server that could be run on top. NeWS is one of those things that > is in my "interested to find more out about, I was just discussing this with a friend yesterday. I used and adminned the SGI NeWS implementation daily for several years. The systems were 4D-25Gs and 4D-35Gs. Good hardware, and the windowing system was very nice. Their X11-based GUI was introduced with IRIX 4.0, with 4DWM written to (mostly) emulate the NeWS interface. It was pretty good but noticeably slower. NeWS was VERY smooth. We were doing (of course) visualization work with those machines, and most of our stuff was written using GL. (not "OpenGL", but "GL"). > but probably not > interested in programming" because of the additional PostScript layer > on top. You didn't need to do anything with PostScript if you didn't want to, but it's actually a really nice language. > Did they have any IDEs to help with that? The concept of the IDE, aside from Turbo Pascal and very early Turbo C, was pretty much nonexistent at the time. If there had been, I would've had to spend a lot of otherwise-productive time explaining to n00bs why they didn't really want to use an IDE, regardless of how much "easier" it seemed on the surface. ;) > I remember reading about a new "UNIXy" window system project that > seemed to leverage many of the points discussed above, but the > authors had completely ignored network transparency. That's the sort > of thing that seems needless fluff until you start to use it, then > the network features of X become very convenient. I can't remember > the name right now, however. Seems that useless stylistic effects > were amply provided for in it. Are you talking about the new one currently being developed (primarily) in the Linux world? I've forgotten its name. I've read a few things about it; it seems nice, but is not network-enabled. I'd guess they're going to write some sort of X11 module for it to preserve some degree of interoperability with the rest of the world. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Thu Aug 9 12:52:53 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 10:52:53 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <1344492987.2484.6.camel@entasis> References: <1344492987.2484.6.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <5023F8F5.1090501@jwsss.com> On 8/8/2012 11:16 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251109274976 > > I call shenanigans. > the sale was on 7/21 and ngmichaelsw id has no feedback for selling anything. w/o that it is scam of course. YOu'd think a 2400 buck sale would entitle you to good feedback if it isn't a scam. jim From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 9 13:05:38 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Re: [rescue] "bloated pig X11" In-Reply-To: <5023F5C4.9050503@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 9, 12 01:39:16 pm" Message-ID: <201208091805.q79I5cnt12189784@floodgap.com> > Are you talking about the new one currently being developed > (primarily) in the Linux world? I've forgotten its name. ITYM Wayland (not to be confused with Weyland-Yutani, who are currently developing some other kind of monster). Frankly Wayland doesn't interest me much, but I mostly deal with Unix through old X11 systems and OS X. I'm more interested in seeing where people take CDE, now that it is open source. Can't wait for Motif to join it finally (outside of OpenMotif and LessTif). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- rm -rf /bin/laden ---------------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 13:12:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 14:12:38 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: [rescue] "bloated pig X11" In-Reply-To: <201208091805.q79I5cnt12189784@floodgap.com> References: <201208091805.q79I5cnt12189784@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5023FD96.2040900@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2012 02:05 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Are you talking about the new one currently being developed >> (primarily) in the Linux world? I've forgotten its name. > > ITYM Wayland (not to be confused with Weyland-Yutani, who are currently > developing some other kind of monster). That's it! > Frankly Wayland doesn't interest me much, but I mostly deal with Unix > through old X11 systems and OS X. Same here, but I mainly deal with *new* X11 systems and OS X. ;) Some old though, on occasion. > I'm more interested in seeing where > people take CDE, now that it is open source. Can't wait for Motif to join > it finally (outside of OpenMotif and LessTif). I heard about CDE the other day too. That could be interesting. Many people hated CDE, but I thought it was ok. (not great, but ok) I will probably try to build it soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 9 13:25:21 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 11:25:21 -0700 Subject: NeWS In-Reply-To: References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <50240091.9060108@bitsavers.org> On 8/9/12 10:21 AM, Richard wrote: > I have been attempting to find details on the Apollo DOMAIN/OS > windowing environment before they started running X11, but so far > haven't been able to find much of anything. > There wasn't anything in the Apollo documents on bitsavers? In the queue are about 100 ESDI Apollo disks with what HP had left of Apollo's development environment. I'm hoping they're still readable. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 13:31:33 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:31:33 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: [rescue] "bloated pig X11" In-Reply-To: <5023F5C4.9050503@neurotica.com> References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <5023F5C4.9050503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2012, at 1:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> but probably not >> interested in programming" because of the additional PostScript layer >> on top. > > You didn't need to do anything with PostScript if you didn't want to, > but it's actually a really nice language. Well, it's a really nice language for the type of person who likes Forth. I am one of those people, but I've found it to be somewhat less than widespread. :-) >> I remember reading about a new "UNIXy" window system project that >> seemed to leverage many of the points discussed above, but the >> authors had completely ignored network transparency. That's the sort >> of thing that seems needless fluff until you start to use it, then >> the network features of X become very convenient. I can't remember >> the name right now, however. Seems that useless stylistic effects >> were amply provided for in it. > > Are you talking about the new one currently being developed > (primarily) in the Linux world? I've forgotten its name. I've read a > few things about it; it seems nice, but is not network-enabled. I'd > guess they're going to write some sort of X11 module for it to preserve > some degree of interoperability with the rest of the world. Wayland is also designed to be considerably lower-level than X11, primarily to improve efficiency. It's really more a compositor than a true windowing system, if I understand it correctly. It does allow for someone to write an X11 backend to perform all the higher-level functions that the X server does. In that sense, it's a lot more "unixy" than X, because it does one thing well and lets other things provide higher-level functionality. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 9 13:37:30 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject: Re: [rescue] "bloated pig X11" In-Reply-To: <5023FD96.2040900@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 9, 12 02:12:38 pm" Message-ID: <201208091837.q79IbUa011010254@floodgap.com> > > I'm more interested in seeing where > > people take CDE, now that it is open source. Can't wait for Motif to join > > it finally (outside of OpenMotif and LessTif). > > I heard about CDE the other day too. That could be interesting. Many > people hated CDE, but I thought it was ok. (not great, but ok) I will > probably try to build it soon. I actually rather liked CDE, but this is due to my history with AIX and HP-UX, and may qualify as a mental illness. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Save a horse, starve a fever. Wait, what? -- Alex Payne -------------------- From bear at typewritten.org Thu Aug 9 13:41:27 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:41:27 -0700 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <5023D8FF.4010406@bitsavers.org> References: <40732E89-EAB9-433B-9497-C1F6B325706F@zipcon.net> <201208090715.DAA24114@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5023D8FF.4010406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2012, at 8:36 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > A 100U doesn't use a BW2 card, which was designed by Sun Microsystems. > It uses the earlier SUN workstation card designed at Stanford. The 100U > was a 'brain transplant' for the original SUN-1 CPU card, replacing the > CPU with a Sun-2 CPU and memory, but leaving the rest of the cards alone. Yes, and the "brain transplant" is an otherwise normal Sun-2 CPU, with different boot ROMs to enable the bwone and parallel keyboard, rather than the bwtwo and serial keyboard that would be used for an actual Sun-2. I.e., you couldn't do the upgrade yourself today by taking a processor card out of a Sun-2 and plugging it into your Sun 100. You'd have to replace the ROMs, too. A Sun-2 processor with Sun-2 ROM code and a bwtwo gets you a Sun-2. A Sun-2 processor with 100U ROM code and a bwone gets you a 100U. Simply replacing one framebuffer with the other gets you no console video, though presumably it would still work as a bitmap display for SunTools once UNIX loads, since the driver code is present in the OS for both framebuffers. The parallel keyboard interface is still present in the (multibus) Sun-2 but there are no code paths in the ROM to activate it. The bwtwo apparently has a configuration register to select a 1024x1024 framebuffer size, but I haven't found any information on how (or whether) this is expressed in any of the jumpers on the card itself (or how to enable it in software at the ROM monitor level) or whether this would even change the display timing (I suspect it would have to). Presumably this is so folks upgrading a 150U chassis to Sun 2/170 equivalent could continue using their old monitors... but this is just a guess. Technically I suppose you could do the same in the 100U but mechanically it's a lot more challenging due to the way the I/O connectors are expressed on the back panel of that chassis. ok bear. From lists at loomcom.com Thu Aug 9 13:48:14 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:48:14 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <5023F8F5.1090501@jwsss.com> References: <1344492987.2484.6.camel@entasis> <5023F8F5.1090501@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20120809184814.GA9585@mail.loomcom.com> * On Thu, Aug 09, 2012 at 10:52:53AM -0700, jim s wrote: > > On 8/8/2012 11:16 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251109274976 > > > >I call shenanigans. > > > the sale was on 7/21 and ngmichaelsw id has no feedback for selling > anything. w/o that it is scam of course. YOu'd think a 2400 buck > sale would entitle you to good feedback if it isn't a scam. More interesting evidence: there is a user named Michael Ng from Hong Kong on Youtube, with a video of the "Newton 1" running. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAFDvkjGLiA I'm not sure if it's a copy of Willegal's board as someone else suggested, but that does lead me to an interesting philosophical quandry: If we assume that the Newton 1 and Willegal's boards are both faithful replicas of the original Apple I, then by transitive property they would be faithful replicas of each other. So I don't think we can claim he's just copying Willegal. Or can we? :) -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 9 13:52:07 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <741349baa9b328f68b4d4a42b9b99d65@otter.se> References: <741349baa9b328f68b4d4a42b9b99d65@otter.se> Message-ID: <20120809113721.G27306@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 jonas at otter.se wrote: > http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2012-08-05/ Believe me, our community college district far surpasses anything in Dilbert, or even Jonathan Swift's recounting of the Grand Academy of Lagado (Part 3 in Gulliver's Travels) To bring it back on topic, . . . They once wanted me to make a BIG DEAL out of a donation of a Fortune Systems Computer. I told them it would be nice to have, but that it was NOT a "SUPER Computer", as they had on the paperwork. Before that, they once upgraded a half dozen TRS80IIIs to TRS80IVs, at a cost of $700 each, when IVs were available without drives and RAM for $600 each, and the current lab techs were thoroughly familiar with how to swap drives and RAM, AND had enough extra drives and RAM that the IIIs could have remained and ADD the IVs. At another time, they wanted us to trade in the 50 286 PCs with Hercules video that comprised our student lab (used by a few hundred students for WordPervert, Windoze 3.10, C, BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL, etc.) for 3 486s. When the administration upgraded THEIR machines from 386 to Pentium, I begged them to let us have the 386s to upgrade our 286 based lab. They refused, because they were getting $100 EACH (with their VGA and color monitors)! as trade-ins on their 386 to Pentium upgrade. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 13:58:59 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:58:59 -0400 Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) In-Reply-To: <201207031727.NAA05120@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201207031727.NAA05120@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <004501cd7661$092271d0$1b675570$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:28 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: > Powermac...) > > > N8VEM. > > > Pretty sure that's not what you meant, though. > > > Seriously, I love the idea but see no good way to market it to the > > average user. > > Why does "the average user" matter here? Such people have no use for > schematics, detailed ASIC data, etc. This strikes me as rather like building a > solar-powered car for racing and worrying that it doesn't work well to carry > groceries home from the supermarket. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Agree. The N8VEM home brew computer project is not intended for "average" users by any stretch. I would not categorize it as a computer manufacturer either. Rather a cooperative project by home brew hobbyists for other home brew hobbyists. It is a niche specialty for dedicated hobbyists. It is however completely open, documented, and publicly available. If N8VEM builders want something they can build it here but they have to put in the effort and resources. For instance recent some builders wanted to design and build an MC68040 SBC. So that's what we are doing and just ordered some prototype boards. Same with an 80386 CPU for the S-100 bus and I'll order some prototype boards for it tomorrow. Among several other interesting projects in work at any given time. The N8VEM project is for those hobbyists who are willing to put in the work to make what they want happen. Decrying the lack of documentation from modern computer manufacturers is completely pointless in my opinion. First, they can't hear you and second, they couldn't care less. If you want a completely open and documented computer system, I recommend you build it yourself. Then publish your works so others can benefit. Similarly, the Raspberry Pi is a neat idea but it appears to be so contaminated with proprietary information that it will likely never achieve any sort of real openness. Also, I don't think just getting an RPi PCB and building it yourself is an option even if you did have the skills to assemble it (SMT, BGA, etc). If you are sitting around waiting for someone to "do it right" I suggest you be waiting for a long time if not forever. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From jws at jwsss.com Thu Aug 9 14:04:01 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 12:04:01 -0700 Subject: NeWS In-Reply-To: References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <502409A1.7010307@jwsss.com> On 8/9/2012 10:21 AM, Richard wrote: > No IDE support. If you want to get a feel for what it's like to > program in NeWS, just start playing around with PostScript. NeWS is a > very thin veneer on top of PS. I think Sun had some sort of idea that they could standardize the middle layer of info for displays and printing. I do recall a term called Display Postscript, which I think is in the mix somewhere. The printers they all had at sun were all running NeWS, and that is all I ever saw it used for. There was also Openwindows which was replaced by OLWM. I think Openwindows is about all you can run on the older sparc1's and IPC IPX machines because of memory requirements. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 14:20:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:20:14 -0400 Subject: NeWS In-Reply-To: <502409A1.7010307@jwsss.com> References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <502409A1.7010307@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50240D6E.5000108@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2012 03:04 PM, jim s wrote: > There was also Openwindows which was replaced by OLWM. I think > Openwindows is about all you can run on the older sparc1's and IPC IPX > machines because of memory requirements. Not even close. (sorry) X11 was very widely used on those machines, and even their predecessors. Many pre-SPARC Sun machines with only 4MB of RAM ran X11. Heck, I ran it, along with several others at work, on 68010-based Sun2 machines with (I think) 2MB or 3MB of RAM. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 9 14:21:42 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 12:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <20120809113721.G27306@shell.lmi.net> References: <741349baa9b328f68b4d4a42b9b99d65@otter.se> <20120809113721.G27306@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 jonas at otter.se wrote: >> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2012-08-05/ > > Believe me, our community college district far surpasses anything in > Dilbert, or even Jonathan Swift's recounting of the Grand Academy of > Lagado (Part 3 in Gulliver's Travels) > > To bring it back on topic, . . . > > They once wanted me to make a BIG DEAL out of a donation of a Fortune > Systems Computer. I told them it would be nice to have, but that it > was NOT a "SUPER Computer", as they had on the paperwork. > > Before that, they once upgraded a half dozen TRS80IIIs to TRS80IVs, at a > cost of $700 each, when IVs were available without drives and RAM for $600 > each, and the current lab techs were thoroughly familiar with how to swap > drives and RAM, AND had enough extra drives and RAM that the IIIs could > have remained and ADD the IVs. > My best guess is that you only work there due to the entertainment value of what stupid thing the adminstration is going to do next. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 14:33:41 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:33:41 -0600 Subject: NeWS In-Reply-To: <50240091.9060108@bitsavers.org> References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <50240091.9060108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <50240091.9060108 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 8/9/12 10:21 AM, Richard wrote: > > > I have been attempting to find details on the Apollo DOMAIN/OS > > windowing environment before they started running X11, but so far > > haven't been able to find much of anything. > > > > There wasn't anything in the Apollo documents on bitsavers? Looks like it was pre-2009 that I last looked, when you added a bunch of stuff. I will have to dig into that pile! > In the queue are about 100 ESDI Apollo disks with what HP had left of Apollo' s > development environment. I'm hoping they're still readable. I have an Apollo DN10000. Bear Stricklin has some OS distributions for it, but it's always nice to have "multiple sources" available. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Aug 9 14:36:20 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 19:36:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 Message-ID: <403475575.245134.1344540980838.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 13 >Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2012 23:31:22 -0400 >From: Paul Anderson < wackyvorlon at me.com > > >I'm at university right now, studying classics(ancient rome and greece), and this reminds me of something my prof told me. He was participating in one dig where they >ended up uncovering a grand total of about ten *tons* of potsherds. That's about nine thousand kilograms for the metric inclined. > >The problem is that most of them had no real diagnostic value - no markings, nothing unusual. Not really much to be learned from them. Of course, you couldn't put them in >a museum. All the museums in the world put together don't have space for ten tons of random, unmarked potsherds. I had thought they should see about selling them, lots >of people would love to have a piece of ancient greece - but, no, my prof pointed out that they would then become fodder for forgers. So, what to do? Fortunately, at the >time, Athens Airport was building a new runway - and needed fill. Those potsherds are buried under the runway. > >Sometimes, there's just too much *stuff*. I used to do archaeological field work in Peru, and have personally reburied pot sherds and shells after the analysis was completed. I would include some indication that the material was reburied, but in one instance that did not prevent a later project at the same site from ignoring my note as intrusive and thinking they had found a large quantity of one type of marine shell buried in a grave pit . As to museums having much more material in storage than on display, my experience comes from a natural history museum, where the collections try to encompass as much variation in a species as possible. You might display one example of a bird or snail, but have 40 or 50 (or hundreds) more in storage. For cultural artifacts, storage is more dense than the exhibit galleries, and space is limited, so that is one reason most of the collection is kept in storage. Another reason is that even a good exhibit is more damaging to an artifact than good storage. The museum is committed to preserving the artifact for an indefinite period of time and is (or should be) very concerned about protecting the artifact from damage. As a curator, I was fairly broad in allowing access to the stored collections. You could not just walk in off the street, but if you could give a good reason why you should be allowed to see the collections (not just the desire to see more examples, however), you could get an appointment. Other curators were stricter, but they were the ones who had the legal responsibility for their collections. The Conservators were the strictest -- even curators had to bow to them over questions about whether or how an artifact could be displayed. Bob From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 14:46:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:46:42 -0600 Subject: NeWS In-Reply-To: <502409A1.7010307@jwsss.com> References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <502409A1.7010307@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <502409A1.7010307 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > > On 8/9/2012 10:21 AM, Richard wrote: > > No IDE support. If you want to get a feel for what it's like to > > program in NeWS, just start playing around with PostScript. NeWS is a > > very thin veneer on top of PS. > I think Sun had some sort of idea that they could standardize the middle > layer of info for displays and printing. I do recall a term called > Display Postscript, which I think is in the mix somewhere. PostScript works really well as a universal page description language because each program that want to target a PS printer basically emits a "preamble" that fills the PS runtime environment with primitives tailored to the application and then "printing" becomes a traversal of your in-memory display list, emitting custom PS primitives for each item in your internal data structure. PS acts as a universal back end for any application by adapting to the data structures of the application. This is acceptable because printing doesn't have to happen at interactive rates and the abstract ideal of what is to be printed can never, ever, truly be realized by any real world printer (there is always a resolution limit). In contrast, for displays programmers expect pixel-perfect results between platforms and need interactive rates for their applications. They aren't willing to wait around for the rendering in return for some abstract ideal. Programs that are graphics intensive have always been willing to "code for the device" in order to obtain a little more speed. Noone complained if your graphics terminal had a funky escape sequence if it was FAST. Noone complained when SGI introduced a completely new graphics API library (it wasn't compliant with *any* standard, official *or* defacto!) because it was FAST. They didn't even care that the graphics API from SGI *only* ran on SGI hardware and had weird compatability issues between different models of SGI hardware. In a modern GPU, it's so crazy fast compared to the CPU at rendering stuff that for most applications they can embrance an ideal abstraction and not pay a performance penalty. However, if you're writing an immersive photorealistic 3D first person shooter, things are different. Even there, you'll find a convergence of concepts between the remaining APIs left standing (Direct3D and OpenGL); the board and chip makers are differentiating themselves by the broad strokes of their SIMD architectures, the performance of their individual SIMD units (can you do double precision floats at no penalty?), speculative execution of shader stages, advanced pixel culling to get effective increased fill rate and other innovations like adding more shader stages to the pipeline (hull, domain and compute shaders in Direct3D are the latest additions, before that it was the geometry shader) where it makes sense. I expect the next shader stage to be added to the pipeline is something that manages the animation of rigged characters for you; currently the CPU still traverse the bone structure of a rigged character and positions each bone during an animation cycle, i.e. a walking movement. > There was also Openwindows which was replaced by OLWM. I think > Openwindows is about all you can run on the older sparc1's and IPC IPX > machines because of memory requirements. OpenWindows is the rendering server (SunView, NeWS, and X11 compliant) that replaced the SunView server. SunView couldn't handle NeWS or X11 clients, only clients written for SunView. OLWM is a window manager. The two are very different. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 14:49:59 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 15:49:59 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I'm at university right now, studying classics(ancient rome and greece), and this reminds me of something my prof told me. He was participating in one dig where they ended up uncovering a grand total of about ten *tons* of potsherds. That's about nine thousand kilograms for the metric inclined. > > The problem is that most of them had no real diagnostic value - no markings, nothing unusual. Not really much to be learned from them. Of course, you couldn't put them in a museum. All the museums in the world put together don't have space for ten tons of random, unmarked potsherds. I had thought they should see about selling them, lots of people would love to have a piece of ancient greece - but, no, my prof pointed out that they would then become fodder for forgers. So, what to do? Fortunately, at the time, Athens Airport was building a new runway - and needed fill. Those potsherds are buried under the runway. My cousin was on a dig like that, maybe 15 years ago, I think in Sicily. I think she said that on that occasion, they just used a backhoe to move the pile over a bit. And someday we will be using backhoes to move over piles of PeeCees, Macs, iPhones and Droids. -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 15:03:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:03:01 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54298C67-E07C-4BC3-B88C-83879086FDCD@gmail.com> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > And someday we will be using backhoes to move over piles of PeeCees, > Macs, iPhones and Droids. Probably because they won't be the Droids we're looking for. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 15:05:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 14:05:46 -0600 Subject: Graphics programming on DOMAIN/OS (was: NeWS) Message-ID: On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:33:41 MDT, Richard wrote: > In article <50240091.9060108 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > > > On 8/9/12 10:21 AM, Richard wrote: > > > > > I have been attempting to find details on the Apollo DOMAIN/OS > > > windowing environment before they started running X11, but so far > > > haven't been able to find much of anything. > > > > > > > There wasn't anything in the Apollo documents on bitsavers? > > Looks like it was pre-2009 that I last looked, when you added a bunch > of stuff. I will have to dig into that pile! "Programming with Domain Graphics Primitives" (005808-01)[1] makes reference to "Programming with General System Calls" (005506) which explains pad calls that allow you to create pads and frames. If this manual could be made available, that would be a helpful addition. [1] -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 15:10:14 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:10:14 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: > This is in line with my experience. Some are very cautious, there are people out there who would use such a privilege to damage things. In general, museums are all about preservation and study. If you are studying, they are very helpful. I can not think of a time when I was actually turned away from the back room of a tech museum*, honestly. I think the key is my third point - "don't be a dick". Every museum has floating in the back of their heads an unofficial (and maybe sometimes official!) list of people that have been too abrasive, careless, or dangerous, that should not be allowed any privileges beyond what normal visitors have. Riding into a museum on a high horse is a pretty good way to get on this list, as are not following simple rules like not touching things, wearing those dumb gloves, or putting things back in order. One last point about "getting into the back room" - museum people are often busy doing boring paperwork jobs. It is best to bend to their schedule, and not bug them to death. If they give you an appointment, work with it. Of course, sometimes the museum folks are looking for an excuse to get away from the boring paperwork jobs, so this can be used to an advantage! * By tech museum I will include aircraft, radio, railroad, computer, ship, industry, and so forth. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 9 15:15:36 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:15:36 -0700 Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <20120809113721.G27306@shell.lmi.net> References: , <741349baa9b328f68b4d4a42b9b99d65@otter.se>, <20120809113721.G27306@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5023B7F8.7555.119D6B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2012 at 11:52, Fred Cisin wrote: > They once wanted me to make a BIG DEAL out of a donation of a Fortune > Systems Computer. I told them it would be nice to have, but that it > was NOT a "SUPER Computer", as they had on the paperwork. That brings up an interesting question. Which is faster, a Fortune 32:16 or an IBM System/3? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 15:22:42 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:22:42 -0400 Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> Message-ID: > Thoughts? The problem is that such a survey is tainted from the start. Many people that hold rare machines (or rare *anything*) often do not advertise what they have, in fear that they will be bugged to death, or even marked as a target for theft. Some are downright secretive. The big iron collectors are very much like this. I know of quite a few fantastic machines in private hands - but I am not talking! The holders of those machines absolutely do not want their identities known, and I will respect them. And now that the whole Apple 1 phenomenon has hit the public spotlight, things will probably tighten up further. But, such a registry is not a bad idea at all - it just that you will have to take it with a grain of salt. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 9 15:24:16 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 13:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <54298C67-E07C-4BC3-B88C-83879086FDCD@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Aug 9, 12 04:03:01 pm" Message-ID: <201208092024.q79KOGvB8716490@floodgap.com> > > And someday we will be using backhoes to move over piles of PeeCees, > > Macs, iPhones and Droids. > > Probably because they won't be the Droids we're looking for. *thwack* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Blazing E-mail Signatures -------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 9 15:30:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 13:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: References: <741349baa9b328f68b4d4a42b9b99d65@otter.se> <20120809113721.G27306@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120809132822.U30144@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > My best guess is that you only work there due to the entertainment value > of what stupid thing the adminstration is going to do next. :) If I can stand 2.00 more semesters, then I can retire with medical benefits at close to 75% of what I make now. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 15:34:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 16:34:12 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208092024.q79KOGvB8716490@floodgap.com> References: <201208092024.q79KOGvB8716490@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50241EC4.5000904@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2012 04:24 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> And someday we will be using backhoes to move over piles of PeeCees, >>> Macs, iPhones and Droids. >> >> Probably because they won't be the Droids we're looking for. > > *thwack* *snicker* -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Aug 9 15:38:00 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 20:38:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [rescue] "bloated pig X11" In-Reply-To: <1681040848.247884.1344544649740.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1871080282.247902.1344544680377.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 7 >Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 14:12:38 -0400 >From: Dave McGuire > > > I heard about CDE the other day too. That could be interesting. Many >people hated CDE, but I thought it was ok. (not great, but ok) I will >probably try to build it soon. > > -Dave > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/09/cde_goes_opensource/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 9 15:42:20 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 13:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: slowest supercomputer still in operation In-Reply-To: <20120809132822.U30144@shell.lmi.net> References: <741349baa9b328f68b4d4a42b9b99d65@otter.se> <20120809113721.G27306@shell.lmi.net> <20120809132822.U30144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >> My best guess is that you only work there due to the entertainment value >> of what stupid thing the adminstration is going to do next. :) > > If I can stand 2.00 more semesters, then I can retire with medical > benefits at close to 75% of what I make now. > You'll miss them. You know you will. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 15:48:37 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 14:48:37 -0600 Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > But, such a registry is not a bad idea at all - it just that you will > have to take it with a grain of salt. I would simply go for a serial number registry associated with an account name on that registry site, which may or may not be a pseudonym. A wiki with new account approval would probably suffice, at least for a while. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 9 15:56:39 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 13:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Forward Delay of posts? In-Reply-To: References: <5022FED8.7030304@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> What I am curious about is the 20 minute delay from when my >> reply was sent to classiccmp vs the time the reply was received >> back from classiccmp? Is a 20 minute delay normal? >> >> I know that classiccmp has a delay of at least 5 minutes whereas >> another list I monitor responds almost immediately. Any comments? > > Classiccmp is very indeterministic. I often get the replies to a posting long > before the original posting. It apparently depends on who writes from where. Ooo! A source of truly random numbers!!! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 9 16:02:00 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems In-Reply-To: <5023D73D.9070808@bitsavers.org> References: <5022F22E.8020305@update.uu.se> <5022F828.4080108@compsys.to> <5023D73D.9070808@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/8/12 11:56 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> As HP are quite happy with licensing VMS 7.3 for VAX and 8.3 for Alpha free >> of charge to Hobbyists who are members of HPUG. I can't see an issue with >> PDP-11 OS's > > These systems have champions on the inside that can make things happen. > It is actually a lot more complicated than that, and as I understand it there > is a business reason for wanting to keep VMS usage numbers up. > > There is no one left who can do that for any of the PDP systems. I tried > using the channel that CHM had for the other non-commercial licenses from HP > in the past and didn't get anywhere. With the Itanium circling the drain, it seems like it would be a Good Idea to port VMS to a different processor -- like maybe AMD64. Does anyone know anything about this beyond what the FreeVMS people are doing? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 9 16:03:22 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:03:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, William Donzelli wrote: >> I'm at university right now, studying classics(ancient rome and >> greece), and this reminds me of something my prof told me. He was >> participating in one dig where they ended up uncovering a grand total >> of about ten *tons* of potsherds. That's about nine thousand kilograms >> for the metric inclined. >> >> The problem is that most of them had no real diagnostic value - no >> markings, nothing unusual. Not really much to be learned from them. Of >> course, you couldn't put them in a museum. All the museums in the world >> put together don't have space for ten tons of random, unmarked >> potsherds. I had thought they should see about selling them, lots of >> people would love to have a piece of ancient greece - but, no, my prof >> pointed out that they would then become fodder for forgers. So, what to >> do? Fortunately, at the time, Athens Airport was building a new runway >> - and needed fill. Those potsherds are buried under the runway. > > My cousin was on a dig like that, maybe 15 years ago, I think in > Sicily. I think she said that on that occasion, they just used a > backhoe to move the pile over a bit. > > And someday we will be using backhoes to move over piles of PeeCees, > Macs, iPhones and Droids. Backhoes? Tractor beams. From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Aug 9 16:27:25 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 17:27:25 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> Message-ID: <3B001FA7-2C80-4706-9F67-B2CF4D376423@me.com> This reminds me of something my prof told me about the museum at Piraeus in Greece. For those not familiar with the geography, Piraeus is about five miles from the acropolis in Athens(IIRC). For centuries it was *the* port used by Athens for shipping, during the Peloponnesian Wars they built the Long Walls that encircled the acropolis and created a path to Piraeus. As ships are wont to do in harbours, a number of them sank over the years. This has lead to some amazing finds off Piraeus, some of the most beautiful bronzes you will ever see! Magnificent stuff. The thing is, this place is kind of out of the way and I understand that it actually gets very few visitors. If you manage to make the trip down, the staff at the museum is *very* enthusiastic to show people around. My prof got quite the tour last time he was there. On 2012-08-09, at 4:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> > > Of course, sometimes the museum folks are looking for an excuse to get > away from the boring paperwork jobs, so this can be used to an > advantage! > From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Aug 9 16:28:41 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 17:28:41 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <54298C67-E07C-4BC3-B88C-83879086FDCD@gmail.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> <54298C67-E07C-4BC3-B88C-83879086FDCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9DF4860E-19E8-43DB-B870-6EE813012D94@me.com> They're never the droids we're looking for... :/ On 2012-08-09, at 4:03 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> And someday we will be using backhoes to move over piles of PeeCees, >> Macs, iPhones and Droids. > > Probably because they won't be the Droids we're looking for. > > > - Dave > From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Aug 9 16:36:01 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 21:36:01 +0000 Subject: CDE article in The Register [was RE: [rescue] "bloated pig X11"] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B959EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: feldman.r at comcast.net Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:38 PM >>Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 14:12:38 -0400 >>From: Dave McGuire > > >> I heard about CDE the other day too. That could be interesting. Many >>people hated CDE, but I thought it was ok. (not great, but ok) I will >>probably try to build it soon. > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/09/cde_goes_opensource/ Like Dave, I came to like it (as VUE) on HP-UX, and will probably put it on a Linux box at some point. But I mostly wanted to point out that the Register article was written by our own Liam Proven! Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Aug 9 16:38:50 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 17:38:50 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <570484C4-40C8-449D-BA78-D134222FCE2E@me.com> This just jogged my memory of another dig, I think it was either at Helike or Stymphalos. They found rooftiles. Many, many rooftiles. Imagine about four 20' shipping containers filled to the ceiling with bags of whole and shattered rooftiles. Before you can get rid of them, you have to clean them. So it was a poor undergrad's job, sitting at a bucket of water, washing off roof tiles looking for ones that are of interest. If it's the one at Helike, that's the one where a fellow got *both* sunstroke and hypothermia at the same time. He wasn't good at the idea of pacing himself.... On 2012-08-09, at 3:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> > > My cousin was on a dig like that, maybe 15 years ago, I think in > Sicily. I think she said that on that occasion, they just used a > backhoe to move the pile over a bit. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 9 16:45:30 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:45:30 -0600 Subject: VMS port (was Re: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems) In-Reply-To: References: <5022F22E.8020305@update.uu.se> <5022F828.4080108@compsys.to> <5023D73D.9070808@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50242F7A.2080902@brouhaha.com> David Griffith wrote: > With the Itanium circling the drain, it seems like it would be a Good > Idea to port VMS to a different processor -- like maybe AMD64. Does > anyone know anything about this beyond what the FreeVMS people are doing? I'd be completely astounded if HP hasn't had an x86_64 port of VMS running for at least five years now. However, it would OF NECESSITY be an incredibly well-kept secret, and we would never hear of it until HP is ready to publicly admit that the Itanic is sinking. I'm not expecting that for at least another few years. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 9 16:47:27 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:47:27 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <9DF4860E-19E8-43DB-B870-6EE813012D94@me.com> References: <4DBAF4B627C64F67A283195F00A9AF1B@vostro> <501FCDE5.3000700@bitsavers.org> <501FEF97.7080101@gmail.com> <501FFFE4.8080000@bitsavers.org> <50943138BDD14822BE82F8C87DE82B25@MailBox> <502185AB.8010104@gmail.com> <54298C67-E07C-4BC3-B88C-83879086FDCD@gmail.com> <9DF4860E-19E8-43DB-B870-6EE813012D94@me.com> Message-ID: <50242FEF.4000301@brouhaha.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > They're never the droids we're looking for... :/ Sometimes they are. We just don't find out until too late.. http://www.etsy.com/listing/37178125/stormtrooper-regrets-those-were-the From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 16:52:05 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:52:05 -0600 Subject: Apollo DN590 workstation Message-ID: Anyone got one? It's supposedly the first Apollo workstation to support 24-bit truecolor.[1] [1] , pg. 6-17 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 9 17:01:38 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS port (was Re: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems) In-Reply-To: <50242F7A.2080902@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Aug 9, 12 03:45:30 pm" Message-ID: <201208092201.q79M1cpt7078130@floodgap.com> > > With the Itanium circling the drain, it seems like it would be a Good > > Idea to port VMS to a different processor -- like maybe AMD64. Does > > anyone know anything about this beyond what the FreeVMS people are doing? > > I'd be completely astounded if HP hasn't had an x86_64 port of VMS > running for at least five years now. However, it would OF NECESSITY be > an incredibly well-kept secret, and we would never hear of it until HP > is ready to publicly admit that the Itanic is sinking. I'm not > expecting that for at least another few years. This sounds like Apple and the secret x86 port of OS X, frankly. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Art is either plagiarism or revolution. -- Paul Gauguin -------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 9 17:05:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 18:05:58 -0400 Subject: CDE article in The Register [was RE: [rescue] "bloated pig X11"] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B959EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B959EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <50243446.3050502@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2012 05:36 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> I heard about CDE the other day too. That could be interesting. Many >>> people hated CDE, but I thought it was ok. (not great, but ok) I will >>> probably try to build it soon. > >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/09/cde_goes_opensource/ > > Like Dave, I came to like it (as VUE) on HP-UX, and will probably put it > on a Linux box at some point. > > But I mostly wanted to point out that the Register article was written by > our own Liam Proven! Oh crap I totally missed that! Good job Liam! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 17:21:46 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:21:46 -0500 Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> Message-ID: I think that news link from old-computers.com was probably supposed to be http://www.old-computers.com/club/collectors/woozgotwat.asp . There have been multiple registries based on system type but typically they're hosted just by a person with interest and either gain no momentum or fizzle out over time. Not sure who a good resource to host such a thing would be. I've thought about it in general just to get a nice inventory somewhere including serial numbers. I think it'd be nice also in the off chance of a stolen system. From bear at typewritten.org Thu Aug 9 17:32:56 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 15:32:56 -0700 Subject: Graphics programming on DOMAIN/OS (was: NeWS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Richard wrote: > "Programming with General System Calls" (005506) which > explains pad calls that allow you to create pads and frames. If this > manual could be made available, that would be a helpful addition. If Al comes up with nothing, I have that one in a three-ring binding and could move it up to the top of the scan pile for you. ok bear. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 17:37:59 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 15:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?V0lSRUQgQXJ0aWNsZTogVGhlIFJpZGljdWxvdXNseSBPdmVycHJpY2VkIA==?= =?utf-8?B?4oCYVmludGFnZeKAmSBUZWNoIG9mIEViYXk=?= In-Reply-To: References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Heh.. This is something everyone here has been talking about http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/the-ridiculously-overpriced-vintage-tech-of-ebay From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 9 17:42:09 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:42:09 -0700 Subject: Graphics programming on DOMAIN/OS (was: NeWS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50243CC1.2030504@bitsavers.org> On 8/9/12 3:32 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Aug 9, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Richard wrote: > >> "Programming with General System Calls" (005506) which >> explains pad calls that allow you to create pads and frames. If this >> manual could be made available, that would be a helpful addition. > > If Al comes up with nothing, I have that one in a three-ring binding and could move it up to the top of the scan pile for you. > doesn't look like I have it. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 9 17:47:02 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:47:02 -0700 Subject: Graphics programming on DOMAIN/OS (was: NeWS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50243DE6.4080102@bitsavers.org> On 8/9/12 3:32 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Aug 9, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Richard wrote: > >> "Programming with General System Calls" (005506) which >> explains pad calls that allow you to create pads and frames. If this >> manual could be made available, that would be a helpful addition. > > If Al comes up with nothing, I have that one in a three-ring binding and could move it up to the top of the scan pile for you. > found it.. Had it listed with the wrong part number From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 9 16:47:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 22:47:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 8, 12 06:33:26 pm Message-ID: > > > So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? > > Replicas? Reproductions? > > Simulators are good. Rubbish! Simulators are nowhere near enough to see what using a machine was really like. In any case, most people (other than me) could run the simulators at home, so there's no need for a museum to show them. Simulators amy or may not include all the bugs and quirks of the real machine. In gernaral the only way to find these is to run the real machine and compare the behaviour of the simulator under certain test cases. Simulators do not give the 'experienece' of the real machine (you don't ahve to go and sort the deck of cards you dropped, you don't have to put up with the clatter of an ASR33). And when it comes to investigatign the hardware, no simuulator comes close. I would certainly feel cheated if I visited a so-called operational computer museum and found everything was simulated, > grandkids. Just realize that it is a good idea to set aside *some* > machines in a museum, and treat them as if they need to last for 1000 > years. Except with the best will in thwe world it is not going to last 1000 years, or even 100 years. However you store it, parts will have degraded before then. I really feel you are better of doing what you can with it _now_ and recording all the information you can about it, while said information can be obtained. Case in point (not computer related). I have a device here which uses a train of plastic gears to drive one of the rotating parts. When I was running it, one of the gears litterally crumbed to dust. Not due to some other part seizing up, just because it was old plastic. Fortunately I had already counted and written down the numebr of teeth on all the gears (this informatiaon is not in the service manual, which simply says it's part ) Of coruse I could then calcualte the diametircal pitch of the gear it meshed with and thus get a suitagble repalcement. A bit of machining to mke a hub to carry thsi gear and it was running again. Now, you might say that if I'd never run it, that gear would be still be good. Mayeb, But he repains were so weak and brittle that IMHO it would have fallen apart sitting on the shelf. And if I hadn't been investigating it, and hadn't counted the teeth, it would have been next-to-impossible to repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 9 16:25:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 22:25:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <960BBFC1C3A741B79A38EA9C23A845CC@G4UGMT41> from "Dave" at Aug 8, 12 07:52:46 pm Message-ID: > > > Artifact degradation is all about pissed off people in the future, > > > because you used the things to death. > > ... But not running them is all about pissed-off people now. > > Generally you will be left with the carcass of the machine, which is all you > have if you don't use the machine. In many cases the use of the machine > means that it will be better preserved as the mechanical parts will be oiled > and lubricated... I think you have to consider wht damage could be done. And that depeneds -- a lot -- on the artefact. A vitage aeroplane is likely to be totally destroyed if it crashes, so you probably don't want to fly it very often. A vitage car, used on public roads is at the mercy of other drivers, but used on a test track it's a lot less likely to get wrecked. So you might well consider doing the latter from time to time. In the case of a vitage computer or peripjheral, it's very unlikely that failure would totally destroy it. Yiu would still have the unit looking as it should do, even if an irreplaceable IC failed. And in that start it can still be displayed, bot not run. You might as well run it while you can. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 9 16:55:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 22:55:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC SB11 info In-Reply-To: <5023173C.80907@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 8, 12 06:49:48 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all -- > > Anyone know anything about the DEC SB-11 enclosure? It's a small > (13"x12"x3.5" or so) chassis containing a power supply and a 4-slot > dual-height q-bus backplane. Very cute, and I want to put together a > small 11/23 system in it. Anyone know the original intended usage for > these little things? This sounds very like a BA11-V box. Have you tried finding information on that to see if it matches? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 9 16:35:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 22:35:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 98xx series cassette EOT-sensor fix : war story In-Reply-To: <001001cd75ab$e8416670$b8c43350$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Aug 8, 12 11:22:20 pm Message-ID: > > Lately I acquired some HP 9865 cassette units and a HP 9821A three cassette > drives suffered from 'slow running' > > I found out the LDR's used in the EOT sensor are causing this behavior, the > used LDR's are from the NSL314 type which is practically unobtainable. Right. Thannks for that bit of information > > The NSL314 is a IR-sensitive CDSe type LDR, replacing it with a standard low > resistance LDR doesn't do the trick, the LDR needs to have a resistance > lower then ~5k at low light. My first thougth upon reading this (before I read to thened of the message) was that the EOT ensor jsut has to prouce a logic-level signal dependant on whether the tape is transparent or not. it should surely be possible to tweak things around the 741 op-amp to get it to work. > > The most of the cassette drives also suffer from bad sensor bulb, replacing > the bulb by a white LED doesn't give enough light to do the trick. I am suprised, given that the original buib is not that bright. Have you tried an IR LED? AFAIK the bulbs are still available (I beleive Farnell 113-9296 is suitable) > The combination white LED and new LDR isn't working because the LDR > resistance isn't getting low enough. > > The sensor amplifier circuit needs to be modified to work correct, I did > this by creating Wheatstone's bridge by adding a grounding resistor to the > LDR input. > > Adding a series resistor of 10k to LDR input and changing the feedback > resistor from 18k2 to 100k made the amplifier work correct with the > combination white LED and 'normal' CDS type LDR. > > I made some pictures from this fix which can be found at my flickr page : > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/sets/72157630819381098/ I will take a look. Thanks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 9 17:14:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 23:14:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <9952AB5A2ACA4192AB380108513283A6@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 9, 12 07:37:04 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony > Quite a long answer but very interesting. > > Firstly let's establish credentials. Prior to 1975 when I joined DEC I was a > development engineer and designed with TTL logic. I did a lot of work > interfacing to PDP8's at Harwell and elsewhere. My final job before being > approached by DEC was developing VDU's many of which ended up connected to > 11/70 timesharing systems and the like. I was certainly not criticsing you (or anyone else) specifically. FWIW, I've seen many of your posts here and I know you know what you are talking about. On the other hand Iv'e met DEC field servoids who admit they can't solder. In fact when an upgrade required soldeirng, I used to do it for them much of the time (!). My experience, as you may know, includes HP desktop calcualtors and computers. You can see the ofifical service manuals on hpmuseum.net. Apart from the PSUs, there are no schematics in general. The ofifical proceudre, carried out by fireld engieners, was to swwap boards until it worked. No real logic to it at all. Now this time I am not goign to criticise board-swappign _at the time the machien was in productuion_. That is a separate issue. But now, when the machine has been out of production for decades, there are often no knwn-good sets fo board around. Swapping one possibly-defective board with anohter possibly-defective board is goign to get you nowhere fast. I am quite sure there are people who worked for DEC, HP, IBM, etc, etc, etc who did (and stil ldo) know how these machiens really worked and how to repair them. And such people are, indeed, an asset to a museum. Nobody is doubtign that. But equally there are ex-employees of such companies who were field serive engieers but who just vfolloed the boardswappign instructiuons. And there are hobbyists who have taught themselves how the machines work and how to fix them. IMHO the latter are more valuable than the former now (although the input from both is worthy of consideration). Alas most, if not all, meuseums, want the former and not the latter. Put it this way : Person (a) worked as a calcualtor field servie engineer for HP from 1970 to 1975. And has not touched such a machine since Person (b) never worked for HP ro any other computer compny, But he's produced hs own schematics, commented microcode soruce, etc for the HP9800 machines. Oh, and written a repair guide. Now, who do you want working isnide your HP9830? -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Aug 9 18:01:29 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:01:29 +1200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_WIRED_Article=3A_The_Ridiculously_Overpriced_=91Vi?= =?windows-1252?Q?ntage=92_Tech_of_Ebay?= In-Reply-To: <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Gee. I need to put my Lisa on there. It will help pay off the mortgage.! (-: Terry (Tez) On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > Heh.. This is something everyone here has been talking about > > > http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/the-ridiculously-overpriced-vintage-tech-of-ebay > > > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Aug 9 19:25:28 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 17:25:28 -0700 Subject: VMS port (was Re: Current license holder of DEC PDP-11 operating systems) In-Reply-To: <50242F7A.2080902@brouhaha.com> References: <5022F22E.8020305@update.uu.se> <5022F828.4080108@compsys.to> <5023D73D.9070808@bitsavers.org> <50242F7A.2080902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <502454F8.80305@jwsss.com> The same hardware group is also going to be tasked with supporting the Tandem software if they bail from the Itanic. Last time I knew about that group they were in the same building and working together. I think the more interesting design to figure out will be that one. I think they still support the same sort of execution model with Itanium as they did with the original hardware. jim On 8/9/2012 2:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> With the Itanium circling the drain, it seems like it would be a Good >> Idea to port VMS to a different processor -- like maybe AMD64. Does >> anyone know anything about this beyond what the FreeVMS people are >> doing? > > I'd be completely astounded if HP hasn't had an x86_64 port of VMS > running for at least five years now. However, it would OF NECESSITY > be an incredibly well-kept secret, and we would never hear of it until > HP is ready to publicly admit that the Itanic is sinking. I'm not > expecting that for at least another few years. > > From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Aug 9 19:48:29 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:48:29 +0200 Subject: Domain OS (was: NeWS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50245A5D.5070603@update.uu.se> On 2012-08-09 22:10, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/9/12 10:21 AM, Richard wrote: >> >I have been attempting to find details on the Apollo DOMAIN/OS >> >windowing environment before they started running X11, but so far >> >haven't been able to find much of anything. >> > > There wasn't anything in the Apollo documents on bitsavers? > > In the queue are about 100 ESDI Apollo disks with what HP had left of Apollo's > development environment. I'm hoping they're still readable. Gah! It's over 20 years now since I used the window system on Domain OS, but I still shudder at the memory. It was not fun. From what small details I can still remember it made no difference between the mouse pointer and the text cursor. Move one, and you moved both. Input for a window was normally done in a special sub-window one line high, at the bottom of the window. In general it was weird and somewhat unintuitive, and we *longed* for a switch to X11, but since X11 took much more resources, it took a few years before we actually switched. There were some cool concepts in Domain/OS, but for the most part, it was just weird and horrible. Johnny From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 9 20:12:53 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 20:12:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: =?ISO-8859-7?Q?Re=3A_WIRED_Article=3A_The_Ridiculously_Overpriced_=A1Vintage=A2_Tech_of_Ebay?= In-Reply-To: <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Christian Liendo wrote: > Heh.. This is something everyone here has been talking about > > http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/the-ridiculously-overpriced-vintage-tech-of-ebay Gee... Wonder what my NOS 8008 CPUs are worth now? From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 9 20:17:58 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 20:17:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Artifact degradation is all about pissed off people in the future, >>>> because you used the things to death. >>> > > ... But not running them is all about pissed-off people now. > > >> Generally you will be left with the carcass of the machine, which is all you >> have if you don't use the machine. In many cases the use of the machine >> means that it will be better preserved as the mechanical parts will be oiled >> and lubricated... > > I think you have to consider wht damage could be done. And that depeneds > -- a lot -- on the artefact. A vitage aeroplane is likely to be totally > destroyed if it crashes, so you probably don't want to fly it very often. Vintage airplanes are occasionally lost to hanger fires, too. > A vitage car, used on public roads is at the mercy of other drivers, but > used on a test track it's a lot less likely to get wrecked. So you might > well consider doing the latter from time to time. In the case of a vitage > computer or peripjheral, it's very unlikely that failure would totally > destroy it. Yiu would still have the unit looking as it should do, even > if an irreplaceable IC failed. And in that start it can still be > displayed, bot not run. You might as well run it while you can. Electronics are simply going to fail no matter if you use them or not. Most electronic components simply can't last forever. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 21:52:50 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 19:52:50 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-7?Q?RE:_WIRED_?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?Article:_T?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?he_Ridicul?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?ously_Over?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?priced_=A1Vi?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?ntage=A2_Tec?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?h_of_Ebay?= In-Reply-To: References: , <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org>, , <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com>, , , , <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: > From: tothwolf at concentric.net > > On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Christian Liendo wrote: > > > Heh.. This is something everyone here has been talking about > > > > http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/the-ridiculously-overpriced-vintage-tech-of-ebay > > Gee... Wonder what my NOS 8008 CPUs are worth now? Hi Those are asking prices, not those that are sold. About the only thing I might want to bid on was the Varian but it was way out of my price range. About $300 would be my limit. Dwight From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Aug 9 22:13:28 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 23:13:28 -0400 Subject: Mathematica, Illustrator, Display PostScript - Re: NeWS In-Reply-To: References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <50247C58.4060308@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/08/12 1:21 PM, Richard wrote: > ... > Even the X11 Display PostScript extension wasn't used much by applications > except for some niche markets like desktop publishing. The benefits > are too few for most applications. NeXTStep includes Display > Postscript under the covers, but I don't think actual applications > really used it -- they used the objects in the UI framework instead. Mathematica and Adobe Illustrator (both flagship applications on NEXTSTEP) must have used Display PostScript primitives. Mathematica in particular had a very sophisticated PostScript generator honed on the Macintosh and other front-ends. It's possible that Illustrator could have reused its portable rasteriser (such as the one they launched on Macintosh for v 1.0) but I kind of doubt it. Be nice if someone who actually knows could tell us :) > Those objects could just have easily implemented their rendering with > X11 and probably noone except the most ardent of typographical > rendering freaks would have noticed the difference. > >> NeWS is one of those things that is in my "interested to find more >> out about, but probably not interested in programming" because of the >> additional PostScript layer on top. Did they have any IDEs to help with >> that? > > No IDE support. If you want to get a feel for what it's like to > program in NeWS, just start playing around with PostScript. NeWS is a > very thin veneer on top of PS. And wait for somebody to scan the NeWS binder (I have it) :) --Toby From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Aug 9 22:17:05 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:17:05 -0700 Subject: DEC SB11 info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50247D31.3010100@mail.msu.edu> On 8/9/2012 2:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Anyone know anything about the DEC SB-11 enclosure? It's a small >> (13"x12"x3.5" or so) chassis containing a power supply and a 4-slot >> dual-height q-bus backplane. Very cute, and I want to put together a >> small 11/23 system in it. Anyone know the original intended usage for >> these little things? > This sounds very like a BA11-V box. Have you tried finding information on > that to see if it matches? Yes, that's what it turned out to be (a BA11-VA). And after I discovered I was using the wrong fuses (thought I had grabbed a 3A, but it was a 2A) it stopped blowing them on powerup :). I now have a very minimal 11/23 system running in it. Thanks, Josh > > -tony > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 9 22:26:36 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:26:36 -0700 Subject: Mathematica, Illustrator, Display PostScript - Re: NeWS In-Reply-To: <50247C58.4060308@telegraphics.com.au> References: <8CF44574DE1ABEA-11DC-6DEF8@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <50247C58.4060308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50247F6C.5000702@bitsavers.org> On 8/9/12 8:13 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > And wait for somebody to scan the NeWS binder (I have it) :) > do you have 800-2379-10_NeWS_2.0_Programmers_Guide_Aug89? I've got that scanned. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 22:29:03 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 23:29:03 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Electronics are simply going to fail no matter if you use them or not. Most > electronic components simply can't last forever. Nothing lasts forever. Get used to it. But using electronics makes forever a much shorter time - there are bushels of engineering studies on component reliability out there if you do not believe me. -- Will From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Aug 9 23:15:31 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 00:15:31 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> Simulating everything for a computer museum is like a regular museum having nothing but reproduction artifacts. It doesn't work well. But, not everyone can get to the hardware. I've been playing with OpenVMS lately myself, using simh to emulate a VAX. My goal is to get a VAX machine, but for now the simulator has to suffice. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-09, at 5:47 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >>> So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? >>> Replicas? Reproductions? >> >> Simulators are good. > > Rubbish! > > Simulators are nowhere near enough to see what using a machine was really > like. In any case, most people (other than me) could run the simulators > at home, so there's no need for a museum to show them. > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 9 23:38:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 21:38:20 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> References: , <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> Message-ID: <50242DCC.24607.2E61A35@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2012 at 0:15, Paul Anderson wrote: > Simulating everything for a computer museum is like a regular museum > having nothing but reproduction artifacts. It doesn't work well. I agree. The young 'uns should experience firsthand the joy of picking the shredded remains of a ribbon out of the print train of a CDC 512 line printer. Or the ear-piercing scream of one operating with the cover open. Trying to sort the remains of your card deck after it has been mangled and accordion-pleated by the card reader. I rank those right up there with changing a thermocouple in the oil sump of an operating rolling mill... Kidney stones are great fun also. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 23:40:56 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 00:40:56 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> Message-ID: > Simulating everything for a computer museum is like a regular museum having nothing but reproduction artifacts. It doesn't work well. Please note that I said nothing about a computer museum using simulators. The question asked was: >>>> So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? >>>> Replicas? Reproductions? I replied: > Simulators are good. Note no museum use was mentioned. Simulators work well for this, and can be run from the comfort of anyone's home. No museum required. So please reconsider your post and how things were actually said. Please do not stoop to Tony's level, twisting my words at any occasion - you will end up soiling your reputation (back to the "don't be a dick" idea). Anyway, here is a fun thought experiment. Consider two absolutely identical big machines from the 1960s. Take one, and restore it to operation. Take the other, and put it into a museum archive and preserved. Wait 30 years. Now, in 2042, compare the two machines. The running one will be quite a bit more "used" than the preserved one, just from normal wear and tear on the components. Now here is the twist - in 30 years ago, simulators will be magnitudes beyond what we have today. Simulating not only the architecture, but the sounds, smells, colors, textures, and so forth. Yes, virtual reality. Now, what would you want your near perfect simulation to be based off of - the machine that was used far longer than its normal working history, or the one that was preserved as it was just taken out of service? -- Will From jws at jwsss.com Thu Aug 9 23:41:32 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 21:41:32 -0700 Subject: =?ISO-8859-7?Q?Re=3A_WIRED_Article=3A_The_Ridiculously_?= =?ISO-8859-7?Q?Overpriced_=A1Vintage=A2_Tech_of_Ebay?= In-Reply-To: References: , <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org>, , <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com>, , , , <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <502490FC.9070507@jwsss.com> On 8/9/2012 7:52 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Varian but it was way out of my price range. > About $300 would be my limit. I'm guessing the three Varians we have in our pile would sell if this one goes. and they cost more than $300 when acquired, so you'll be waiting for a while. Complete machines the age of the varian are worth way more than $300, but probably not $10,000. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 23:55:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 22:55:43 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > But using electronics makes forever a much shorter time - there are > bushels of engineering studies on component reliability out there if > you do not believe me. For "hands on" experiences, that ultimately means that every exhibit will degrade into some sort of replica. However, as component density increases (i.e. custom VLSI chips), it becomes problematic to make a replica. How am I going to make a replica of an SGI workstation when the circuitry inside the VLSI geometry engine chips isn't documented? It's too complex to treat it like a PAL and "dump" it's behavior. It's unlikely that the internal design documents (schematics) will ever be made public; I would not be surprised to find NVIDIA or ATI/AMD willing to lay claim to some of the IP buried in there after patent transfer from the original SGI. And that's just for a well known, large-ish company where such documents may even still exist, what about a smaller concern that's long since out of business? Sure we can preserve the physical hardware as a manufactured item, but the actual design of its internals may be inscrutable forever. Well, at least until the singularity let's us reverse engineer circuit diagrams from chips. The imaging of 6502 and SID chips yielding an executable simulation of the chip is probably the route that we'll have to take. We'll end up with an executable simulation, but still be lacking in design documents. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From evan at snarc.net Thu Aug 9 23:59:09 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 00:59:09 -0400 Subject: C= lecture video from VCF East 8.0 Message-ID: <5024951D.70606@snarc.net> Video here: http://c128.com/vcf From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 9 23:59:49 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 22:59:49 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > [...] Simulating not only the architecture, but the sounds, > smells, colors, textures, and so forth. Yes, virtual reality. When I started reading about the 7090 (oh no! I brought the subject back to it's original context!), I was thinking of adding a 3D machine room simulation graphics front end to the existing 7090 SIMH implementation. You would navigate the machine room and load tapes, card decks, etc., and watch your output print on the printer. Adding HVAC, etc., noises wouldn't be hard either. Unfortunately I don't have the time to code this... it's going on my list of google summer of code projects ocne I get 501(c)3 status. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jws at jwsss.com Fri Aug 10 00:07:28 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 22:07:28 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> Message-ID: <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> On 8/9/2012 9:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Simulating everything for a computer museum is like a regular museum having nothing but reproduction artifacts. It doesn't work well. > Please note that I said nothing about a computer museum using > simulators. The question asked was: > >>>>> So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? >>>>> Replicas? Reproductions? > I replied: > >> Simulators are good. > Note no museum use was mentioned. > > Simulators work well for this, and can be run from the comfort of > anyone's home. No museum required. > > So please reconsider your post and how things were actually said. > Please do not stoop to Tony's level, twisting my words at any occasion > - you will end up soiling your reputation (back to the "don't be a > dick" idea). > > Anyway, here is a fun thought experiment. Consider two absolutely > identical big machines from the 1960s. Take one, and restore it to > operation. Take the other, and put it into a museum archive and > preserved. Wait 30 years. Now, in 2042, compare the two machines. The > running one will be quite a bit more "used" than the preserved one, > just from normal wear and tear on the components. Now here is the > twist - in 30 years ago, simulators will be magnitudes beyond what we > have today. Simulating not only the architecture, but the sounds, > smells, colors, textures, and so forth. Yes, virtual reality. Now, > what would you want your near perfect simulation to be based off of - > the machine that was used far longer than its normal working history, > or the one that was preserved as it was just taken out of service? > > -- > Will > Simulators also help do something with software that running artifacts can't do. They get the software off of bitsavers and into a lot more places than just a few old farts with working machines. I think the dec software is far more healthy today for the work of simh and others to write simulators than if such didn't exist. I remember back in the good old days (mine were in the mid 70's on) that I wish I had simulators because even when this crap was new it was a pain in the ass. I'm into hardware and all, but software and a simulator will present the same thing thru a terminal as the real thing, sometimes better, which is an added plus. the simulator I have runs over 500x as fast as the original hardware, which I'm just fine with. After you've gotten all the feel of the original, there is still the original thing we came for, which is delivered most times just as well with a simulator and original software. Of the topic a it as it is preserving hardware, noise components. They have the most value in the market, but I get way more of a thrill from seeing the latest thing Al got on bitsavers than the hardware, or even better help him get something there. Jim From nick.allen at comcast.net Thu Aug 9 12:47:48 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2012 12:47:48 -0500 Subject: Sun 100U video display Issues In-Reply-To: <5023D8FF.4010406@bitsavers.org> References: <5023D8FF.4010406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5023F7C4.6040404@comcast.net> Correct Al, my 100U has a Sun2 CPU card and a bwone and bwtwo (not sure why both). I was attempting to use the bwtwo card, as the bwone card was not working. With Bear's help, we are thinking the ROM on the Sun2 CPU card is a later revision, and needs to be back-revved to an earlier version for the bwone to active properly. Will report back with my findings and screen shots! Anyone have a Sun1 Keyboard or mouse they are willing to sell/trade? ----------------------------- On 8/9/12 12:15 AM, Mouse wrote: >>/ http://sunstuff.org/Sun-Hardware-Ref/s2hr/part3 />/ />>/ The standard monochrome framebuffer, found in everything from the />>/ first Sun-2 to desktop SPARCs, and the 386i as well. Standard />>/ resolution is 1152 x 900 and high resolution is 1280 x 1024; other />>/ resolutions (1024 x 1024?) may exist. />/ / A 100U doesn't use a BW2 card, which was designed by Sun Microsystems. It uses the earlier SUN workstation card designed at Stanford. The 100U was a 'brain transplant' for the original SUN-1 CPU card, replacing the CPU with a Sun-2 CPU and memory, but leaving the rest of the cards alone. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sun1/800-0345_Sun-1_System_Ref_Man_Jul82 page 51 the resolution is 1024 x 800 From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 15:41:02 2012 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 14:41:02 -0600 Subject: HP Visualize C8000 In-Reply-To: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> References: <201208081745.q78Hj1qR14483538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Aug 8, 2012 2:19 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: > > Just landed a nice C8000 with a dual-core PA-8900 CPU for playing with at a > nice price, the last and most powerful of the Visualize workstations. I > have a CD set of 11i v1 in my stock closet which should do nicely. > > Any other PA-RISC users onlist? Any gotchas? The last Visualize I worked on > was a C3750, so that was a little behind this generation. I just don't have > the space for a K-class, tho. 8) > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Xerox never comes up with anything original. ------------------------------- I have a 9000/800 I40 with 11.0 that formerly served as my personal web server. Just too damned much power consumption in this economy. Gotchas? None really. Reliable boxes. The only snag I ran into was the difficulty of finding CD caddies with which to load installation media... probably not an issue on later hardware though. Congrats on a great find! From prp at teleport.com Thu Aug 9 23:01:26 2012 From: prp at teleport.com (Paul Pierce) Date: 09 Aug 2012 23:01:26 Subject: "Re: Fwd: RE: IBM 7090 documents and tapes- follow on" References: Message-ID: Susan, Peter, I have an IBM 7094 in my collection, the model after the 7090. See http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/main.html My 7094-I is complete with peripherals (tape drives, card reader and printer) cables and spares, along with full hardware documentation and extensive software including diagnostics and IBSYS. It is in storage and until recently has been on view, but now the entire collection is packed to tight for viewing. It is not unreasonable to expect that it could be made to run again; Jay Jaeger, Richard Smith and I brought up a 7094-II in similar shape many years ago. Susan, does your 7090 have its cables? I am not aware of any other 7090/7094 systems in existence except for IBM's own collection. IBM only kept the cabinets, and in some cases only the consoles, not the cables or documentation. There is/was a small trove of 7094 bits and pieces in Ohio, including several consoles and much valuable software, but no cabinets. Jay Jaeger and I have raided the tapes and documents a couple of times, that is where the SHARE tapes on my web site came from. SHARE was the IBM user's group for the 709x series. I have a working setup to read the 7-track tapes that were used with the 1401 and 7000 series computers. I've read most of the tapes in my collection and several other interesting tapes people have sent to me. I wrote special decoding software to extract the data despite dropouts caused by specks of dirt on the tape, and I've found that nearly all tapes no matter how old or how well or poorly stored can be read easily. Once I've read a tape I put the bits up on my web site, and several people have used them to get the old software running again on simulators they have written for these old computers. Peter - We are still missing several interesting pieces of software and software documentation. Its possible the stash you are responsible for contains some of these. Regardless of the eventual disposition, it would be very helpful if I could at least borrow anything I don't already have to read it and make the data available. Nearly all the tapes I have in my collection are already read in and can be found here and at the next link below: http://www.piercefuller.com/library/magtape7.html A little of the software documentation I have has been scanned and can be found here (drill down to individual systems): http://www.piercefuller.com/library/ibm709x.html More can be found at bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/ http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/share/ If you already have a detailed list of the tapes, cards and documents I would like to look it over to see if there is anything interesting. Alternatively, you might compare what you have available to the lists above and note anything different. We are particularly looking for some of the larger SHARE programs that were distributed seperately from the regular compilation tapes, such as the SOS operating system. I am also particularly interested in the APT application, and it would be great to find copies of famous old programs such as LISP. Paul Pierce From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 00:19:23 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 01:19:23 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > For "hands on" experiences, that ultimately means that every exhibit > will degrade into some sort of replica. Yes, I suppose. The pre-WW2 airplane people are headed this way already. Look up "Rhinebeck Aerodrome". > Well, at least until the singularity let's us reverse engineer circuit > diagrams from chips. The imaging of 6502 and SID chips yielding an > executable simulation of the chip is probably the route that we'll > have to take. We'll end up with an executable simulation, but still > be lacking in design documents. Keep in mind that the design tools that can be used to reverse engineer VLSI chips will also continue to improve. These days, taking a first generation logic IC and *completely* reverse engineering it is completely feasible even with outdated tools. What will it be like in 2042? Fancy SGI VLSI may turn out to be child's play. So yes, I tend to be an optimist here. -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 02:45:56 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:45:56 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5024BC34.3020907@gmail.com> On 09/08/2012 22:47, Tony Duell wrote: >>> So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? >>> Replicas? Reproductions? >> Simulators are good. > Rubbish! > > Simulators are nowhere near enough to see what using a machine was really > like. In any case, most people (other than me) could run the simulators > at home, so there's no need for a museum to show them. > > Simulators amy or may not include all the bugs and quirks of the real > machine. In gernaral the only way to find these is to run the real > machine and compare the behaviour of the simulator under certain test > cases. Simulators do not give the 'experienece' of the real machine (you > don't ahve to go and sort the deck of cards you dropped, you don't have > to put up with the clatter of an ASR33). And when it comes to > investigatign the hardware, no simuulator comes close. > > I would certainly feel cheated if I visited a so-called operational > computer museum and found everything was simulated, I think simulation has its place. So for example at MOSI there are a number of ASR33 TTYs and a small mini computer for which I think the disk packs are missing. Now they are never going to get the mini running but I would imagine the ASR33s are not beyond repair, they look reasonably clean. So is it legitimate top connect these to some kind of simulation (Raspberry PI based perhaps) to give folks the experience of using a TTY with auithentic old software? >> grandkids. Just realize that it is a good idea to set aside *some* >> machines in a museum, and treat them as if they need to last for 1000 >> years. > Except with the best will in thwe world it is not going to last 1000 > years, or even 100 years. However you store it, parts will have degraded > before then. I really feel you are better of doing what you can with it > _now_ and recording all the information you can about it, while said > information can be obtained. > > Case in point (not computer related). I have a device here which uses a > train of plastic gears to drive one of the rotating parts. When I was > running it, one of the gears litterally crumbed to dust. Not due to some > other part seizing up, just because it was old plastic. Fortunately I had > already counted and written down the numebr of teeth on all the gears > (this informatiaon is not in the service manual, which simply says it's > part ) Of coruse I could then calcualte the diametircal pitch of the > gear it meshed with and thus get a suitagble repalcement. A bit of > machining to mke a hub to carry thsi gear and it was running again. > > Now, you might say that if I'd never run it, that gear would be still be > good. Mayeb, But he repains were so weak and brittle that IMHO it would > have fallen apart sitting on the shelf. And if I hadn't been > investigating it, and hadn't counted the teeth, it would have been > next-to-impossible to repair. > > -tony -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 10 02:51:47 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 03:51:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Simulators also help do something with software that running > artifacts can't do. [...] Yes...this whole discussion of whether simulators are better than the real thing strikes me as rather silly. Simulators and original hardware are different. For some purposes, one is better; for others, the other. I'm glad we have both, and would be sorry to lose either. Not entirely unlike hands-on versus just-look museum exhibits. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 03:35:40 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 03:35:40 -0500 Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Paul - now seems like a good time to ask if you're open for a weekend visit sometime, to take a tour of your DEC collection and the stuff for sale. I'm pretty likely to go home with something if the price is right :) Julian Wolfe, whom I think you've dealt with before, and I live up in the Chicago suburbs. Would be a day trip on a Saturday afternoon or similar. The only specific thing I'm looking for now is an air duct/filter out of an RK07. I picked one up that was home to many generations of mice. We're cleaning it up as best we can but the filter had nests in it and I'd rather just replace it if possible. Here's a pic of the one I have: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/DECRK07#5774777189688173938 Might need other parts for this beast someday, too! Thanks -j On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have two 25 foot lockers of mostly DEC items I would like to sell > within the next few months. I can ship by the box, pallet, gaylord,or > truckload. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 03:37:03 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 03:37:03 -0500 Subject: DEC, VAX, items in quantity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arrrrgh....was supposed to be a direct message, of course. Anyway....hey, anyone got an RK07 filter duct? Uff. On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 3:35 AM, Jason T wrote: > Hi Paul - now seems like a good time to ask if you're open for a > weekend visit sometime, to take a tour of your DEC collection and the > stuff for sale. I'm pretty likely to go home with something if the > price is right :) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Aug 10 04:37:05 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:37:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: What tools do you use/recommend for content dumping of PALs/PLAs/GALs/EPROMs ? In-Reply-To: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, P Gebhardt wrote: > I'd like to ask the list, what kind of tools/porgrams do you use in > order to dump especially older device types as we can find it in older > computer equipment? We're using an Advantech PC-UPROG for most devices, a Kontron EPP-80 for devices not supported by PC-UPROG (like 2708) and an Intellec 8/80 for 1702 EPROMs. I also have a DataI/O 3900 programmer, but it's modern complex crap. There's not the faintest possibility to repair such a beast (I have a defunct pin driver board, it's full with ASICs, and no schematics whatsoever). Christian From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 10 06:02:29 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:02:29 -0400 Subject: DEC SB11 info In-Reply-To: <50247D31.3010100@mail.msu.edu> References: <50247D31.3010100@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5024EA45.5080901@verizon.net> On 08/09/2012 11:17 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 8/9/2012 2:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> Anyone know anything about the DEC SB-11 enclosure? It's a small >>> (13"x12"x3.5" or so) chassis containing a power supply and a 4-slot >>> dual-height q-bus backplane. Very cute, and I want to put together a >>> small 11/23 system in it. Anyone know the original intended usage for >>> these little things? >> This sounds very like a BA11-V box. Have you tried finding >> information on >> that to see if it matches? > > Yes, that's what it turned out to be (a BA11-VA). And after I > discovered I was using the wrong fuses (thought I had grabbed a 3A, > but it was a 2A) it stopped blowing them on powerup :). I now have a > very minimal 11/23 system running in it. > > Thanks, > Josh I three of them one with 11/2, and pair of MXV11 and storage is TU58, the second with 11/23 with 256K ram, DLVJ11, MRV11,TU58 storage, the third has 11/23 with 256K ram, DLVJ11, RQDX3 (and RD52 in second backplane less BA11VA box). Compact but useful systems in 4 cards. Allison From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Aug 10 06:41:23 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:41:23 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p Message-ID: ...in a closet here. They used to have a bunch of these were I used to work, as a CAD system. This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker icon). You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of devices. Should I bit it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the right direction? I only dug it out because of the CDE thread, so it's "all your fault!" -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 07:22:31 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:22:31 -0400 Subject: What tools do you use/recommend for content dumping of PALs/PLAs/GALs/EPROMs ? In-Reply-To: References: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0846FF0E-FF8E-4A5D-866E-C6E470EC1249@gmail.com> On Aug 10, 2012, at 5:37 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, P Gebhardt wrote: >> I'd like to ask the list, what kind of tools/porgrams do you use in order to dump especially older device types as we can find it in older computer equipment? > > We're using an Advantech PC-UPROG for most devices, a Kontron EPP-80 for devices not supported by PC-UPROG (like 2708) and an Intellec 8/80 for 1702 EPROMs. > I also have a DataI/O 3900 programmer, but it's modern complex crap. There's not the faintest possibility to repair such a beast (I have a defunct pin driver board, it's full with ASICs, and no schematics whatsoever). I use an older Xeltek SuperPro 280, which covers a lot of older ICs (though I found that their NMC9306-style EEPROM algorithms don't work). It's a parallel port beast that they no longer sell (for a while, it looks like they had rebadged it as the SuperPro Z and were still selling it really cheaply). Xeltek's stuff has worked well for me in general, but it's not cheap. As far as repairability, there are a bunch of unknown ICs in there with the silkscreen actually ground off, presumably to inhibit reverse-engineering. I'm pretty sure Xeltek isn't interested in making this a repairable part. - Dave From oneukum at suse.de Fri Aug 10 06:49:08 2012 From: oneukum at suse.de (Oliver Neukum) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:49:08 +0200 Subject: [Larryniven-l] Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53790805.QIRye3lp3a@linux-lqwf.site> On Friday 10 August 2012 12:41:23 John Many Jars wrote: > ...in a closet here. They used to have a bunch of these were I used > to work, as a CAD system. > > This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort > of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker > icon). > > You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of devices. > > Should I bit it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the > right direction? You are probably in an EFI shell. I am afraid your hard drive has failed. You'll need to replace it. I must say, that is a cool thing to have in a closet. Regards Oliver From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 10 07:47:00 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 05:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rare systems register In-Reply-To: References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: > I think that news link from old-computers.com was probably supposed to be > http://www.old-computers.com/club/collectors/woozgotwat.asp . There have > been multiple registries based on system type but typically they're hosted > just by a person with interest and either gain no momentum or fizzle out > over time. Not sure who a good resource to host such a thing would be. > I've thought about it in general just to get a nice inventory somewhere > including serial numbers. I think it'd be nice also in the off chance of a > stolen system. > Here's a very good example of a specific machine registry: http://c64preservation.com/dp.php?pg=registry g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Aug 10 07:51:12 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:51:12 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502503C0.1070503@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/08/12 7:41 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > ...in a closet here. They used to have a bunch of these were I used > to work, as a CAD system. > > This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort > of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker > icon). > > You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of devices. > > Should I bit it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the > right direction? Oooh, I like these little boxes. I have a similar one. Don't bin it; it's probably fixable. --T > > I only dug it out because of the CDE thread, so it's "all your fault!" > From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 07:58:59 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:58:59 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 Message-ID: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Does anyone know of an X Window server implementation for the NEC 7220 GDC? The chip has several names including the Intel 82720, NEC 7220A, NEC 7220D, uPD7220, uPD72020, etc. Essentially this graphics chip was the main rival to the MC6845 prior to the domination of the IBM PC architecture for microcomputers. The NEC 7220A is most notably known for the NEC APC and Epson QX-10 however was used in a number of other systems. Typically it was used for CAD type graphics and/or business graphics as its main strength was drawing primitives like lines, circles, rectangles, etc rather than BITBLT operations. I would imagine an X Window server for the NEC 7220 would suffer in comparison to today's graphics boards. However I think it would be comparable to non-accelerated VGA and/or VESA modes which both have X Window server implementations. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch, 73 de N8VEM From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 10 08:03:46 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 06:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?ISO-8859-7?Q?Re=3A_WIRED_Article=3A_The_Ridiculously_Overpriced_=A1Vintage=A2_Tech_of_Ebay?= In-Reply-To: <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org> <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com> <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Christian Liendo wrote: > Heh.. This is something everyone here has been talking about > > http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/the-ridiculously-overpriced-vintage-tech-of-ebay I wouldn't mind having the Varian 620. That's the brain behind the Vital I scene generator used on a 727-100 flight simulator I used to work on. http://flightweb.simpits.org/BehindTheScenes/727sim1.jpg The "cartridge" on the side was just a wood & acrylic box that held a loop of punched mylar tape. The tape held all the relevant data for the current flight (the airport & runway outlines, navigation beacon frequency, etc) The visual system could display 1023 points (orange or red) at one time. Fun times. :) (the simulator was built in 1967 by Conductron-Missouri) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From doc at vaxen.net Fri Aug 10 08:45:50 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:45:50 -0500 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5025108E.4070907@vaxen.net> On 8/10/12 6:41 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > ...in a closet here. They used to have a bunch of these were I used > to work, as a CAD system. > > This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort > of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker > icon). > > You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of devices. > > Should I bit it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the > right direction? > > I only dug it out because of the CDE thread, so it's "all your fault!" "43P" covers a world of IBM sins.... Seriously, from a 120MHz[1] PReP CPU to a 333MHz CHRP, several models were designated 43P. They all had miserably slow I/O but the CHRP models will run AIX v5.x. The PReP models need a bootable floppy disk to get into the firmware. Somewhere on the box will be a model number like 7043-43P. That'll tell us what you got. In any case, if you're willing to gamble a couple of cubic feet of space and some time on a partially-functional project, they're decent systems and it's probably worth sratching it. Doc [1] ISTR there was a 100MHz model but I've never heard of one in the wild From md.benson at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 08:42:26 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:42:26 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> On 10 Aug 2012, at 12:41, John Many Jars wrote: > ...in a closet here. They used to have a bunch of these were I used > to work, as a CAD system. Nice little RS/6000s - my friends has one. I have a 7046-B50 which I believe is effectively a cluster node server version of the same architecture. Makes a lot better use of a 604e than Apple ever did ;) > This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort > of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker > icon). My B50 sulks if the NVRAM battery dies (if it's been sat in your closet then it likely is dead). It forgets what device to boot from and all sorts and most often locks up on boot. At that screen you should be able to hold down a key, something like F2 or something to access the SMS menu. That will allow you to access a boot device menu and reset it. Service Manual: http://www.g8wrb.org/useful-stuff/IBM/RS-6000/7043-43P-Series/380512.pdf All he answers are in there in typically cryptic IBM style :) > You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of devices Yup, that'll be the OpenFirmware prompt. It likely didn't find a boot device or the boot device failed and it dropped out to the OFW prompt to allow you to poke it. > Should I bin it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the > right direction? Absolutely not. RS/6000s (and especially 43Ps) are like tanks. I only turn my B50 on twice a year at best yet it still works like a charm (unless I have to fit yet another NVRAM battery ;) ) Totally fixable. At worst it might need a new hard drive. IIRC the 43p used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO hard to fix. > I only dug it out because of the CDE thread, so it's "all your fault!" k-pthooey. CDE. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From james at slor.net Fri Aug 10 08:45:43 2012 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:45:43 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you want an HP-UX 10.20 install CD (what I run on mine) to try with it, drop me a direct line. On Aug 10, 2012 7:45 AM, "John Many Jars" wrote: > ...in a closet here. They used to have a bunch of these were I used > to work, as a CAD system. > > This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort > of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker > icon). > > You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of devices. > > Should I bit it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the > right direction? > > I only dug it out because of the CDE thread, so it's "all your fault!" > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all > the facts are in. " > > General "Buck" Turgidson > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Aug 10 08:56:29 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:56:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Items free for pickup; Iowa Message-ID: Greetings; I need to make Space and I've got a random assortment of things I've either never turned on, or not messed with in many years. Free for pickup (I'd really prefer not to box them up) from 50441: IBM 5324 w/keyboard and monitor I've never powered this on and the drive knobs were snapped off prior to my receiving it. My understanding is this is a binary compatible System/34 in baby shoes, but I might be full of it. AS/400 9402 F02 I last powered this on maybe eight years ago. It booted, but I haven't touched it since. HP NetServers 4d/66LM 5/60LM Six drives between them - they should be working IBM Series/1 in rack Someone gutted this before I got it - I have an 8" FDD and the logic cage with the controllers panel. Someone removed the power supply, but I have no reason to believe any of the logic boards were damaged. The hard disk was also taken to pieces, so I have the rack tray and, presumably, the controller in the logic cage, but not the disk itself. Given how long I've had them, I stress "as-is". Lemme know if you're interested; - JP Hampton, Iowa From james at slor.net Fri Aug 10 08:59:02 2012 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:59:02 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Totally fixable. At worst it might need a new hard drive. IIRC the 43p used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO hard to fix. > Depends on the model. Mine uses the 50-pin drive. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 10 09:01:53 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:01:53 +0200 Subject: What tools do you use/recommend for content dumping of PALs/PLAs/GALs/EPROMs ? In-Reply-To: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1344531467.90448.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006501cd7700$b5754800$205fd800$@xs4all.nl> > > I'd like to ask the list, what kind of tools/porgrams do you use in order to dump > especially older device types as we can find it in older computer equipment? > A couple of years back, I was lucky to use an old system at University in order to > dump PAL and EPROM contents of my Onyx C8000 and from a DEC DELUA > board. > But since then, I've never had accessibility to such tools and I'l like to > obtain/purchase one in order to go on with programmable device content > saving. > > Any suggestions? Hints? Experiences? > > Kind regards, > Pierre I'm using a Data I/O 29B for the older stuff and a Willem for newer chips. And I have an ELV IC- tester card for the TTL and CMOS IC's, it works under DOS. The IC database is made in a Pascal like language so it's very easy to add unknown types. Works very well for me .. -Rik From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 10 09:42:31 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:42:31 +0200 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120810164231.8062553f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:41:23 +0100 John Many Jars wrote: > This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort > of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker > icon). > > You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of devices. > > Should I bit it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the > right direction? There are several different variants of 43P. This one seems to be a 43P-150 because you can type "ls" and get a divice tree. This sounds like the OpenFirmWare of a CHRP machine. The enclosure of the machine should be black? You have a quite capable PPC machine there. You could reinstall AIX. Instalation media should be obtainable. An other option is to install NetBSD. Maybe it drops to OFW just because autoboot is disabled. Try to type "boot" at the OFW prompt and see.. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 09:46:02 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:46:02 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-7?Q?RE:_WIRED_?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?Article:_T?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?he_Ridicul?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?ously_Over?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?priced_=A1Vi?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?ntage=A2_Tec?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?h_of_Ebay?= In-Reply-To: <502490FC.9070507@jwsss.com> References: , , <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org>, , , , <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com>, , , , , , , , <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , <502490FC.9070507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > From: jws at jwsss.com > > > On 8/9/2012 7:52 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Varian but it was way out of my price range. > > About $300 would be my limit. > I'm guessing the three Varians we have in our pile would sell if this > one goes. and they cost more than $300 when acquired, so you'll be > waiting for a while. Complete machines the age of the varian are worth > way more than $300, but probably not $10,000. Hi Jim I'd expect them to go for more than $300 but that is my budget. Dwight From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Aug 10 09:40:47 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:40:47 -0500 Subject: Simulators (was: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:36 -0500 8/10/12, Jim wrote: >I think the dec >software is far more healthy today for the work of simh and others to >write simulators than if such didn't exist. ...RT-11? Thank you, Jerome! I don't use it but I certainly recognize the contribution you are making and appreciate it! More generally, SIMH, MESS, etc. which allow almost anyone to fire up their own PDP, Color Computer, etc. and immerse in the 1980 computing environment are *wonderful* things. The sole complaint I have with some of these is that it takes (longer than my attention span) to get them to do "hello world". In many cases they are written for a specific platform, by people who know what they are doing and who make reasonable, but sometimes inaccurate, assumptions that their users do as well. I can easily see great merit to a museum display with (say) a working, living, breathing Color Computer, and a box of paper chits with a URL (or barcode?) pointing to a website on which appears (1) executable binaries (MESS?) for most commodity OS's (iOS, Droid, MacOSX, Windows 98, Windows 7, Linux ELF x86, Linux ELF AMD-64, ...?), and (2) a very explicit list of instructions to configure the binary to do just what the user was doing at the display. Mom and daughter walk in, Mom lights up and says "Oh, I remember this! Check it out, I can make it print the squares of every number from 1 to 100 just like *this* ..." Doughter grabs the chit, whips out her Droid, fumbles for a few minutes, "Mom, it's not working!" Mom looks, says, "Oh, you need to say FOR I= 1 TO 100, not 1 OT 100!" Ignition... We can't *all* have a Cray. But most of us can get the programming experience. The display is needed (and access to it, and maintenance of it!) but the simulator is also needed. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Aug 10 08:12:29 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:12:29 +0200 Subject: Domain OS In-Reply-To: <50245A5D.5070603@update.uu.se> References: <50245A5D.5070603@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <502508BD.6030104@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 10.08.2012 02:48, schrieb Johnny Billquist: > On 2012-08-09 22:10, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 8/9/12 10:21 AM, Richard wrote: >>> >I have been attempting to find details on the Apollo DOMAIN/OS >>> >windowing environment before they started running X11, but so far >>> >haven't been able to find much of anything. >>> > >> There wasn't anything in the Apollo documents on bitsavers? >> >> In the queue are about 100 ESDI Apollo disks with what HP had left of >> Apollo's >> development environment. I'm hoping they're still readable. > > Gah! It's over 20 years now since I used the window system on Domain OS, > but I still shudder at the memory. It was not fun. > > From what small details I can still remember it made no difference > between the mouse pointer and the text cursor. Move one, and you moved > both. Input for a window was normally done in a special sub-window one > line high, at the bottom of the window. > In general it was weird and somewhat unintuitive, and we *longed* for a > switch to X11, but since X11 took much more resources, it took a few > years before we actually switched. > > There were some cool concepts in Domain/OS, but for the most part, it > was just weird and horrible. It is a matter of what one was accustomed to use before. When I started with Aegis in the 80s, it looked like a comfortable graphical system, however, with a lousy Unix clone - coming from a SYSV textual environment; fortunately, there was a SysV/BSD emulation layer (which, unfortunately, was buggy as hell). Programming was another issue, as Aegis seemed to be written in Pascal, where all other Unixes used C. This was Aegis 9.7. Later moved to SunOS with Sunview, and that was - compared to Aegis - awkward und unusable. When Sun moved over to X11 / NeWS, this X11 was a rather strange, and in particular slow (on the same hardware) beast, and I wished I had SunView back. XView and Openview were not adequate replacements. Meanwhile, I am accustomed to X11, and are relucant to look at Wayland... -- Holger From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Fri Aug 10 08:16:40 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:16:40 +0100 Subject: IBM 7090 bits and pieces Message-ID: <1C3776D3871D4FDC981B29403831DA4F@vostro> Guys, Obviously a lot of interest in these 7090 artifacts! And an intetresting "discussion" has followed on the relative merits of museums and simulators. My friend Phil, who is local to the stash, is going to produce a list of what there is, or at least how much there is, as well as some photos. I will pass this info on when I get it. KInd regards, peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 10:25:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:25:39 +0100 Subject: CDE article in The Register [was RE: [rescue] "bloated pig X11"] In-Reply-To: <50243446.3050502@neurotica.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B959EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <50243446.3050502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 9 August 2012 23:05, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/09/2012 05:36 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> But I mostly wanted to point out that the Register article was written by >> our own Liam Proven! > > Oh crap I totally missed that! > > Good job Liam! Hey, thanks, chaps! 8?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 10:41:39 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, James wrote: > If you want an HP-UX 10.20 install CD (what I run on mine) to try with it, > drop me a direct line. If you're able to run HP-UX on IBM Risc architecture, that's quite a trick! -- From colineby at isallthat.com Fri Aug 10 10:49:56 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:49:56 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, A 43P should have an LED display. Whatever code it stops on should be reference. Sounds like you need to check the disk connections and possibly pop in a replacement disk. John Many Jars wrote: >...in a closet here. They used to have a bunch of these were I used >to work, as a CAD system. > >This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort >of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker >icon). > >You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of >devices. > >Should I bit it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the >right direction? > >I only dug it out because of the CDE thread, so it's "all your fault!" > >-- >Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" >Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > >-------- >"I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all >the facts are in. " > >General "Buck" Turgidson -- Colin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 10 11:04:34 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:04:34 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/10/2012 1:51 AM, Mouse wrote: >> Simulators also help do something with software that running >> artifacts can't do. [...] > > Yes...this whole discussion of whether simulators are better than the > real thing strikes me as rather silly. Simulators and original > hardware are different. For some purposes, one is better; for others, > the other. I'm glad we have both, and would be sorry to lose either. And of course with out simulators modern hardware never could be made. > Not entirely unlike hands-on versus just-look museum exhibits. Back to FORTRAN. At one time utilities for new hardware (1970's) was written in FORTRAN to portable. Any idea what machines they expected the programs to be ran on? > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > Ben. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 10 11:16:04 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:16:04 +0200 Subject: Tractor Feed Teletype? Message-ID: Someone I know on this list has an ASR33 Teletype which has a tractor feed. I am sure that all the ones I used at the time were friction feed. Was tractor feed a common thing on these terminals? Regards Rob From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 10 11:22:24 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:22:24 -0600 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: In article <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM>, "Andrew Lynch" writes: > Does anyone know of an X Window server implementation for the NEC 7220 GDC? It's unlikely that there will be a server implementation for this chip; rather the server implementation would be for a product that used this chip. That would typically mean a unix workstation using this chip. So your first step would be to identify a unix workstation from this time frame that had a graphics board based on this chip and then find an X server for it. If you really want to pursue porting the X server to this chip as a project, then get an older X11 distribution like X11R5 and use this book: X Window System Server: X Version 11, Release 5, by Elias Israel and Erik Fortune Digital Press I have this book and have read it. It is a very good treatment of how to port the X server to new hardware. If you pursue this, I can help you, I have done X server work in the past. It is much harder to port the current codebase because of the way they have fractured the distribution. I understand why they did it (decreasing resources at X.org), but it is much, much harder to bring the current X server code base to a new hardware platform than it was before. So far I have been unsuccessful in simply compiling it for an existing well supported ubuntu distribution due to the disparate dependencies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 10 11:23:18 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:23:18 -0600 Subject: Tractor Feed Teletype? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Jarratt RMA writes: > Someone I know on this list has an ASR33 Teletype which has a tractor feed. > I am sure that all the ones I used at the time were friction feed. Was > tractor feed a common thing on these terminals? Hard to say if it was "common" or not, but it was an option available from Teletype. I think it might have been more common on the later Model 43. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 11:28:19 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:28:19 +0200 Subject: RK07 filter duct -- was Re: DEC, VAX, items in quantity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Jason T" Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 10:37 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: DEC, VAX, items in quantity > Arrrrgh....was supposed to be a direct message, of course. > > Anyway....hey, anyone got an RK07 filter duct? > > Uff. Boy, that RK07 is rusty! It will need a lot of cleaning ... I seem to remember that I have one RK07 filter duct from a fairly clean drive. I even have most of the drive parts (if not a complete), but I can not check, because this is some 35 km away from where I live (the old house, which still isn't sold) :-/ Shipping the complete drive (sans "rack" underneath it) is way too expensive. If nobody nearby your place has an RK07 filter duct for you, email me ... greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 10 11:38:20 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:38:20 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Aug 10, at 9:04 AM, ben wrote: > > And of course with out simulators modern hardware never could be made. ... > Back to FORTRAN. At one time utilities for new hardware (1970's) > was written in FORTRAN to > portable. Any idea what machines they expected the programs to be > ran on? When the 68000 (68-thousand) first came out, Moto provided a simulator (written in FORTRAN, TMK) to run on IBM 360/70 hardware (or at least that's what we ran it on, under MTS). I believe that was quite common as the 360/70 arch. was so prevalent, particularly amongst time-sharing services and computing centres. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 10 11:45:09 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:45:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: =?ISO-8859-7?Q?RE=3A_WIRED_Article=3A_The_Ridiculously_Overpriced_=A1Vintage=A2_Tech_of_Ebay?= In-Reply-To: References: , <602FBD03D2A843FB94268809CF8C9B05@MailBox> <5022762B.20704@bitsavers.org>, , <11140d58-52fc-4d7b-a009-6c2567376ad1@email.android.com>, , , , <1344551879.60607.YahooMailNeo@web113510.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > From: tothwolf at concentric.net >> On Thu, 9 Aug 2012, Christian Liendo wrote: >> >>> Heh.. This is something everyone here has been talking about >>> >>> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/08/the-ridiculously-overpriced-vintage-tech-of-ebay >> >> Gee... Wonder what my NOS 8008 CPUs are worth now? > > Hi > Those are asking prices, not those that are sold. > About the only thing I might want to bid on was > the Varian but it was way out of my price range. > About $300 would be my limit. > Dwight Of course. People can ask whatever they want, but that doesn't mean those of us who might be interested in a particular item will be willing to pay insane amounts of money for something. From ray at arachelian.com Fri Aug 10 11:51:43 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:51:43 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> On 08/10/2012 09:59 AM, James wrote: >> Totally fixable. At worst it might need a new hard drive. IIRC the 43p > used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO hard to fix. > Depends on the model. Mine uses the 50-pin drive. > You can always use one of these: http://www.amazon.com/SCA-80-PIN-SCSI-ADAPTER/dp/B0058V1UWS (well the appropriate one for your situation) Off the top of my head: using a 50 pin drive on a 68 pin machine means you slow down and lose the ID range, but using a 68 pin drive in a 50 pin machine is fine long as you keep the ID from 0-6. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 10 11:55:43 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <201208101655.MAA12396@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If you really want to pursue porting the X server to this chip as a > project, then get an older X11 distribution like X11R5 and use this book: > X Window System Server: X Version 11, Release 5, > by Elias Israel and Erik Fortune I like Israel and Fortune, but then, I'm a trifle biased. :-) (I was a prepublication accuracy-check reviewer for a book of theirs, and I think it was this one. I'm in the wrong city to check right now.) > If you pursue this, I can help you, I have done X server work in the > past. Me too. I did the first port of X to NeXT 2bpp hardware; more recently, I built a dual-depth DDX layer to support the Sun cg14 ("dual-depth" = 24bpp and 8bpp on the display at the same time); even more recently, I managed to bludgeon a peecee X server into working with a Sun keyboard on a serial port (with external level shifters). This is not to say I'd be a better person to ask than Richard. There are many plausible reasons I might not be. Just offering myself as a possible resource. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jon at jonworld.com Fri Aug 10 11:55:42 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:55:42 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > You can always use one of these: > http://www.amazon.com/SCA-80-PIN-SCSI-ADAPTER/dp/B0058V1UWS (well the > appropriate one for your situation) > Off the top of my head: using a 50 pin drive on a 68 pin machine means > you slow down and lose the ID range, but using a 68 pin drive in a 50 > pin machine is fine long as you keep the ID from 0-6. I have a 68-pin drive in my MicroVAX II. It works pretty well. From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 11:59:31 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:59:31 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <002101cd7719$9cac2eb0$d6048c10$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:22 PM > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > > In article <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM>, > "Andrew Lynch" writes: > > > Does anyone know of an X Window server implementation for the NEC 7220 > GDC? > > > > It's unlikely that there will be a server implementation for this chip; rather the > server implementation would be for a product that used this chip. That > would typically mean a unix workstation using this chip. > > So your first step would be to identify a unix workstation from this time frame > that had a graphics board based on this chip and then find an X server for it. > > If you really want to pursue porting the X server to this chip as a project, then > get an older X11 distribution like X11R5 and use this book: > > X Window System Server: X Version 11, Release 5, by Elias Israel and Erik > Fortune Digital Press > amp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0139727531&linkCode=as2&tag=le > galiadulth-20> > > I have this book and have read it. It is a very good treatment of how to port > the X server to new hardware. If you pursue this, I can help you, I have done > X server work in the past. > > It is much harder to port the current codebase because of the way they have > fractured the distribution. I understand why they did it (decreasing resources > at X.org), but it is much, much harder to bring the current X server code base > to a new hardware platform than it was before. So far I have been > unsuccessful in simply compiling it for an existing well supported ubuntu > distribution due to the disparate dependencies. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) Hi Richard! Thanks! I will look into your recommended book. I am not aware of any workstations that used the NEC 7220 GDC. There were some Multibus implementations of the chip so I suppose it is possible they exist. Many of the Intel 82720 and NEC uPD7220 boards were highly specialized niche products so it is entirely possible they exist but are not in common knowledge. http://www.multibus-international.com/int-intel-corp/sbx275 On a similar vein, I am aware of X Window(s) server for the VESA API for VGA boards. Most all VGA boards adhere to the VESA standard and provides quite a bit of portability although performance is generally fairly low. Would it be possible/feasible to create a VESA API for a NEC uPD7220A video board? In other words, is the VESA API inherently VGA MC6845 centric or is it hardware abstract enough to be ported to other video chips? At the N8VEM home brew computing project we already have a NEC uPD7220A board that works and has been debugged. However creating software for it has proven to be problematic. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=ECB%20uPD7220%2 0GDC I am considering converting the above design to S-100 bus for a companion to the upcoming S-100 68K CPU board (final board due out later this summer) and the S-100 80386 CPU board (initial prototype boards just ordered). The N8VEM ECB uPD7220A board is a pure 16 color bitmap design. There is no explicit text character mode. The video memory is theoretically upgradeable to 256 colors by adding another 4 color planes. Since it uses a BT478 RAMDAC and VGA compatible dot-clock frequencies it can use 640x480 and 800x600 displays on regular VGA monitors. Thanks for your reply and comments. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 12:00:20 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:00:20 -0700 Subject: Apollo DN590 workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 2:52 PM, Richard wrote: > Anyone got one? > > It's supposedly the first Apollo workstation to support 24-bit truecolor.[1] I have an Apollo 580 in the back of my container. i think it is a 580T. Last running about 15 years ago. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From james at slor.net Fri Aug 10 12:00:39 2012 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:00:39 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009701cd7719$ac369b40$04a3d1c0$@slor.net> Hey guys - please ignore both of my previous thread replies. Somehow, my mind mixed up the 43p with an HP pizza box machine (because I happen to have one of each sitting right next to each other). So yeah, I must have sounded like an idiot, and I'm sure the posted noting the 68-pin drives is correct. Oh, and don't ask me for HP-UX media to run on it. J One of those mornings I guess. James From: James [mailto:james at slor.net] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 9:59 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Found a rs6000 43p > Totally fixable. At worst it might need a new hard drive. IIRC the 43p used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO hard to fix. > Depends on the model. Mine uses the 50-pin drive. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 12:07:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:07:44 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5024DD70.24802.6ABC95@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2012 at 10:04, ben wrote: > Back to FORTRAN. At one time utilities for new hardware (1970's) was > written in FORTRAN to portable. Any idea what machines they expected > the programs to be ran on? Are you referring to cross-assemblers and the like? There usually was no expectation of any particular hardware; usually, the only requirement was that it should use binary. In many of them, the first card read was one punched with the character set to be used, so that considerations about character width (i.e. 6 or 8 bits), collating sequence (e.g. BCD, ASCII or EBCDIC) could be handled. FORTRAN, as long as you stayed away from vendor extensions, really could be portable across a much wider range of hardware than that supported by, say, C. And if you sold a mainframe, it was a given that FORTRAN was supported. So the answer to your question is, I suppose, "whatever you happen to have around". --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 10 12:09:44 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <201208101709.NAA13024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> IIRC the 43p used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO >> hard to fix. Depends on the model. Mine uses the 50-pin drive. > You can always use one of these: > http://www.amazon.com/SCA-80-PIN-SCSI-ADAPTER/dp/B0058V1UWS (well > the appropriate one for your situation) I assume that's the adapter the URL makes it sound like? Maybe. Some machines don't have enough mechanical space to insert an adapter. > Off the top of my head: using a 50 pin drive on a 68 pin machine > means you slow down and lose the ID range, Depends. If you do it right, you slow down only when using the narrow drive(s); wide devices on the same bus can run at full wide speed - and wide devices can sit on IDs 8-15; it's only the narrow devices that are confined to the narrow device range. If you do it right, of course. In many cases it's relatively easy to do it wrong and end up with everything running narrow. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 10 12:10:40 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:10:40 -0700 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/12 5:58 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi > > > > Does anyone know of an X Window server implementation for the NEC 7220 GDC? > The chip has several names including the Intel 82720, NEC 7220A, NEC 7220D, > uPD7220, uPD72020, etc. Essentially this graphics chip was the main rival > to the MC6845 prior to the domination of the IBM PC architecture for > microcomputers. > The 7220 and 6845 are quite different. The 6845 is pretty much just a timing generator, the 7220 is a microcoded graphics processor. The problem you'll have with putting a window system on a 7220 is the same one that SGI had with the 68000 IRIS frame buffers. Neither is really designed for direct access to the framebuffer. Both assumed the graphics model was geometry, and not rasterops. You'll be better off with some flavor of VGA (hopefully with an extended flat pixel addressing space) with the processor talking directly to it, and not try to use an 80's era drawing processor. --Al (been there, done that at AED with an AMD QPDM) From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 12:18:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:18:04 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> On Aug 10, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 08/10/2012 09:59 AM, James wrote: >>> Totally fixable. At worst it might need a new hard drive. IIRC the 43p >> used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO hard to fix. >> Depends on the model. Mine uses the 50-pin drive. >> > You can always use one of these: > http://www.amazon.com/SCA-80-PIN-SCSI-ADAPTER/dp/B0058V1UWS (well the > appropriate one for your situation) > Off the top of my head: using a 50 pin drive on a 68 pin machine means > you slow down and lose the ID range, but using a 68 pin drive in a 50 > pin machine is fine long as you keep the ID from 0-6. They are nicely cross-compatible, but it is worth noting that the fast/wide LVD (low-voltage differential) drives are totally incompatible with anything else, much like the HVD is incompatible with single-ended signaling. Otherwise, 68-pin and 50-pin are pretty much interworkable, and the 80-pin SCA is just a hot-swap socket with power pins in it. Someone more versed in SCSI than I might be able to answer this a little better, though: what's the major difference between SCA and SCA2? I've found scant information on it, but I have a feeling it's what's keeping my SCA adaptor from working with my SCA disks (one of them is SCA2, and I can't remember which). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 12:19:53 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:19:53 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <29BE218A-280E-4D5E-A714-911F09EFECAB@gmail.com> I should revise my previous statement: I believe there are *some* LVDS drives/controllers that will behave nicely with single-ended SCSI. I understand it's somewhat wide-spread, but I would be cautious. - Dave From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 10 12:21:12 2012 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:21:12 +0200 Subject: What tools do you use/recommend for content dumping of, PALs/PLAs/GALs/EPROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50254308.8030109@xs4all.nl> On 2012-08-10 00:17, p.gebhardt at ymail.com wrote: > > I'd like to ask the list, what kind of tools/porgrams do you use in order to dump especially older device types as we can find it in older computer equipment? > A couple of years back, I was lucky to use an old system at University in order to dump PAL and EPROM contents of my Onyx C8000 and from a DEC DELUA board. > But since then, I've never had accessibility to such tools and I'l like to obtain/purchase one in order to go on with programmable device content saving. > > Any suggestions? Hints? Experiences? A while ago I started deveoping something around an Arduino like platform to read PALs and EPROMs. See http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/ppread/. So far I developed sketches (programs in Arduino lingo) to read out devices. I still have to make something to analyse the output. This is trival for (EP)ROMs and PALs without registers and tristate pins, tricky for those with... This assuming the security fuses are blown. > > Kind regards, > Pierre Greetings, Fred Jan From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 10 12:24:21 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:24:21 +0200 Subject: recreation of a nearly 30 year old environment..... Message-ID: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> For those who are in an exploring mindset, try 'telnet nexus-core.xs4all.nl 10001' uid/pwd guest1/guest1 Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 12:43:38 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:43:38 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <201208101655.MAA12396@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <201208101655.MAA12396@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <000901cd771f$c64f26e0$52ed74a0$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:56 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > > If you really want to pursue porting the X server to this chip as a > > project, then get an older X11 distribution like X11R5 and use this book: > > > X Window System Server: X Version 11, Release 5, by Elias Israel and > > Erik Fortune > > I like Israel and Fortune, but then, I'm a trifle biased. :-) (I was a > prepublication accuracy-check reviewer for a book of theirs, and I think it was > this one. I'm in the wrong city to check right now.) > > > If you pursue this, I can help you, I have done X server work in the > > past. > > Me too. I did the first port of X to NeXT 2bpp hardware; more recently, I built > a dual-depth DDX layer to support the Sun cg14 ("dual-depth" = 24bpp and > 8bpp on the display at the same time); even more recently, I managed to > bludgeon a peecee X server into working with a Sun keyboard on a serial port > (with external level shifters). > > This is not to say I'd be a better person to ask than Richard. There are many > plausible reasons I might not be. Just offering myself as a possible resource. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Hi Thank you for your support. I appreciate your most generous offer. Please forgive the public response on CCTALK. Sending email to your account always seems to respond with bounces. Here is the *notional* S-100 uPD7220 GDC design information http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20uPD7220 %20GDC Unfortunately I've had difficulty contacting you previously. In particular you've sent email and/or posted information on the SCSI to IDE/SD adapter project (unrelated to the NEC 7220 discussion) and the messages have all bounced even when sent from a non-YAHOO.COM email address (SBCGLOBAL.NET mail server). I would like to work with you on either or both of these projects but am unable to contact you. Would you please add my address (LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM) to your email whitelist or we could correspond in public on CCTALK or the N8VEM forums. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I ordered a copy of the X11 book from Amazon. The price for a used paperback is quite reasonable. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 10 12:48:02 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:48:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <201208101709.NAA13024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <201208101709.NAA13024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> IIRC the 43p used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO >>> hard to fix. Depends on the model. Mine uses the 50-pin drive. >> You can always use one of these: >> http://www.amazon.com/SCA-80-PIN-SCSI-ADAPTER/dp/B0058V1UWS (well >> the appropriate one for your situation) > > I assume that's the adapter the URL makes it sound like? Maybe. Some > machines don't have enough mechanical space to insert an adapter. > >> Off the top of my head: using a 50 pin drive on a 68 pin machine >> means you slow down and lose the ID range, > > Depends. If you do it right, you slow down only when using the narrow > drive(s); wide devices on the same bus can run at full wide speed - and > wide devices can sit on IDs 8-15; it's only the narrow devices that are > confined to the narrow device range. > > If you do it right, of course. In many cases it's relatively easy to > do it wrong and end up with everything running narrow. If wide SCSI devices are on high IDs, won't they be unable to communicate with narrow devices on the same bus? It has been awhile since I touched this stuff so my memory may be a little foggy here. From md.benson at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 12:49:25 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:49:25 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17E9512A-A5A2-4497-8163-C885B82F1528@gmail.com> On 10 Aug 2012, at 18:18, David Riley wrote: > They are nicely cross-compatible, but it is worth noting that the > fast/wide LVD (low-voltage differential) drives are totally > incompatible with anything else, much like the HVD is incompatible > with single-ended signaling. Otherwise, 68-pin and 50-pin are > pretty much interworkable, and the 80-pin SCA is just a hot-swap > socket with power pins in it. It depends on the drive. I've used LVDs on SE setups, they work if you get the termination right. Some even have a jumper to force SE mode. > Someone more versed in SCSI than I might be able to answer this a > little better, though: what's the major difference between SCA and > SCA2? I've found scant information on it, but I have a feeling > it's what's keeping my SCA adaptor from working with my SCA disks > (one of them is SCA2, and I can't remember which). Is SCA2 Fibre Channel SCA (much narrower connector) or am I way off? -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Aug 10 12:52:54 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:52:54 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all the advice guys. I think this machine will be for parts for the others that work that I'm going to get... by saving them from the scrap at the place I used to work. I phoned my friend who still works there... he's happy for me to take a few, as they have to pay to get them taken away... (; On 10 August 2012 18:18, David Riley wrote: > > On Aug 10, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> On 08/10/2012 09:59 AM, James wrote: >>>> Totally fixable. At worst it might need a new hard drive. IIRC the 43p >>> used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO hard to fix. >>> Depends on the model. Mine uses the 50-pin drive. >>> >> You can always use one of these: >> http://www.amazon.com/SCA-80-PIN-SCSI-ADAPTER/dp/B0058V1UWS (well the >> appropriate one for your situation) >> Off the top of my head: using a 50 pin drive on a 68 pin machine means >> you slow down and lose the ID range, but using a 68 pin drive in a 50 >> pin machine is fine long as you keep the ID from 0-6. > > They are nicely cross-compatible, but it is worth noting that the > fast/wide LVD (low-voltage differential) drives are totally > incompatible with anything else, much like the HVD is incompatible > with single-ended signaling. Otherwise, 68-pin and 50-pin are > pretty much interworkable, and the 80-pin SCA is just a hot-swap > socket with power pins in it. > > Someone more versed in SCSI than I might be able to answer this a > little better, though: what's the major difference between SCA and > SCA2? I've found scant information on it, but I have a feeling > it's what's keeping my SCA adaptor from working with my SCA disks > (one of them is SCA2, and I can't remember which). > > > - Dave > > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 12:53:41 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:53:41 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 1:11 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > On 8/10/12 5:58 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > Hi > > > > > > > > Does anyone know of an X Window server implementation for the NEC 7220 > GDC? > > The chip has several names including the Intel 82720, NEC 7220A, NEC > > 7220D, uPD7220, uPD72020, etc. Essentially this graphics chip was the > > main rival to the MC6845 prior to the domination of the IBM PC > > architecture for microcomputers. > > > > The 7220 and 6845 are quite different. The 6845 is pretty much just a timing > generator, the 7220 is a microcoded graphics processor. The problem you'll > have with putting a window system on a 7220 is the same one that SGI had > with the > 68000 IRIS frame buffers. Neither is really designed for direct access to the > framebuffer. Both assumed the graphics model was geometry, and not > rasterops. > > You'll be better off with some flavor of VGA (hopefully with an extended flat > pixel addressing space) with the processor talking directly to it, and not try to > use an 80's era drawing processor. > > --Al (been there, done that at AED with an AMD QPDM) Hi Al! Thanks! Yes, the NEC uPD7220 has a fundamentally different approach to graphics than the primitive MC6845 and derivatives (CGA, MGA, EGA, VGA, SVGA, etc). However, implementing an SVGA on the S-100 bus is a non-trivial exercise as well. We've done three iterations of a CL GD542x based (QFP-160) SVGA implementation prototypes that have gone essentially nowhere. Even completely disregarding the builder assembly concerns of SMT and even programmable logic devices -- even just finding a chipset that is compatible with the S-100 bus has proven to be extremely difficult. We've resorted to using the Propeller and even an FPGA (Spartan 3) based approach but none provide the low level VGA compatibility or even a usable bitmap graphics mode. The NEC uPD7220 readily adapts itself to the S-100 bus and provides a nice VGA monitor compatible bitmap. However it is completely non-VGA compatible and really is as different from the MC6845 derivative as can possibly exist. It uses a totally different approach down to the philosophical theory of design! If you or anyone else has some insight on how to implement a register compatible SVGA on the S-100 bus I am very willing to listen! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Aug 10 12:54:43 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:54:43 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Do IBM do AIX hobby licenses? Hmmm.... I don't have any media for the dead machine. I do have a mysterious backup tape, but I bet you need the OS working to install that. On 10 August 2012 18:18, David Riley wrote: > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 10 13:04:18 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:04:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201208101804.OAA13970@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > They are nicely cross-compatible, but it is worth noting that the > fast/wide LVD (low-voltage differential) drives are totally > incompatible with anything else, In my experience, LVD drives always fall back to single-ended if connected to a single-ended SCSI bus. Perhaps this is just an artifact of the LVD drives I've dealt with. I have noted they have always had a "force single ended" jumper.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 13:07:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:07:57 -0700 Subject: What tools do you use/recommend for content dumping of, PALs/PLAs/GALs/EPROMs In-Reply-To: <50254308.8030109@xs4all.nl> References: , <50254308.8030109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5024EB8D.31535.A1DCE3@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2012 at 19:21, Fred Jan Kraan wrote: > A while ago I started deveoping something around an Arduino like > platform to read PALs and EPROMs. See > http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/ppread/. So far I developed > sketches (programs in Arduino lingo) to read out devices. I still have > to make something to analyse the output. This is trival for (EP)ROMs > and PALs without registers and tristate pins, tricky for those with... > This assuming the security fuses are blown. > > Kind regards, > Pierre Tristate pins are easy--just add a controllable low current source to your rig for each prospective output pin. Try to "push" the subject pin one way or the other. If it's tristated, there is some combination of inputs that will cause it to assert a logic state and it will not be possible to "nudge" it--then you have not only the knowledge that it's a tristate, but what combination of inputs cause it to go active. You could implement this as a single pin driving several diode- isolated resistors. That worked for me. Registers and internal feedback remains an unsolved issue, however. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 10 13:14:47 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <000901cd771f$c64f26e0$52ed74a0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <201208101655.MAA12396@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <000901cd771f$c64f26e0$52ed74a0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <201208101814.OAA14080@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Please forgive the public response on CCTALK. Sending email to your > account always seems to respond with bounces. I'm going to try to find some off-list way to reach you. If you don't get anything from me in a day or so, none of my attempts got through. To the list, I won't bother the whole list with attempts to reach Andrew unless I can't find any off-list way that works. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 10 13:42:50 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <201208101709.NAA13024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201208101842.OAA14290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...wide and narrow on the same bus...] >> If you do it right, [...] > If wide SCSI devices are on high IDs, won't they be unable to > communicate with narrow devices on the same bus? Yes. But I know of very few systems that actually take advantage of the way devices other than the host can act as initiators. (For that matter, the phrasing "the host" betrays an assumption that there is only one host on the bus, another thing that is not safe to assume in theory but is almost always safe to assume in practice.) So, as long as the host is wide.... The coolest example of non-host initiators I recall seeing came from reading over the command set of some particular disk drive. It had a command which made it act as initiator and perform reads from other devices, XORing the resulting data together and writing the result to its own media. (I assume this was intended to allow RAID rebuilds to avoid passing everything through the host.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 14:05:40 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:05:40 -0500 Subject: C64 PSU specs Message-ID: <50255B84.2090801@gmail.com> I finally got hold of that PSU-less C64 that I mentioned on the list a few weeks ago, followed by a 9VAC PSU to test it with. Other than needing the VIC-II and associated ICs re-seating I've not encountered any problems (I've not tested the 1541 yet though due to lack of a cable). Anyway, I'd like to sort out a better PSU for the machine itself until I can get a genuine one from somewhere - does anyone know what a reasonable max current draw on the 9VAC lines might be? (This is an original 'breadbox' machine) The wall-wart 9VAC PSU that I found for testing is only rated for 400mA, which I suspect might be on the low side; I've seen claims of needing 1A or more, and http://www.hardwarebook.info/C64/128_User_Port only states 100mA max for the user port, suggesting that the machine itself might require quite a lot under certain conditions. cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 10 14:24:11 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:24:11 -0700 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/12 10:53 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > If you or anyone else has some insight on how to implement a register > compatible SVGA on the S-100 bus I am very willing to listen! Thanks and > have a nice day! > I guess I'm not clear on what your requirements are for this S-100 video display. Rather than working backwards from the chips that are available, what do you want to DO with it? resolution, bit depth, frame rate, frame buffer organization (planar or chunky pixels). I assume the target is a common video output format like RGB VGA. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 14:25:54 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:25:54 +0200 Subject: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour In-Reply-To: <5022F33D.8010300@update.uu.se> References: <5022F33D.8010300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 1:16 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2012-08-08 23:17, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >>> >>> > >>> >From: "Tony Duell" >>> >Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:16 PM >>> >To: >>> >Subject: Re: Odd PDP-11/84 Unibus behaviour >>> > >>>>> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >>I'm noticing something on my PDP-11/84 that I can't explain. I've >>>> >>>> > > >>>> > >I';ll try a one-word explamation : 'Grants'. >>>> > > >>>> > >[... snip excellent explanation from Tony ...] >>> >>> > >>> >I remember working on grants in the 11/84. >>> >The 11/84 is very user-friendly, because there is a board next to >>> >the CPU that has several DIP switches. Each DIP switch opens >>> >or closes the NPR of one slot. So there is no need to count pins >>> >on the backplane to find CA1-CB1. Just open/close the switch >>> >for the appropriate slot. >> >> Right. That I did not know. TO be honest, the J11-based machiens are too >> mdoern for my taste:-) > > > It is rather convenient. But it should be pointed out that DIP switches for > the NPG signal only exists for the first eight Unibus slots, which are in > the first backplane. If you put in any more Unibus backplanes, it's the same > standard story of the jumpers on the pins as always. > (I *think* it is eight slots on the first backplane in the 11/84, but I > might remember that detail wrong, but I hope people understand the idea even > if I happened to get the actual number wrong.) > > >> However, I would adcvise against flipping said switches unless you know >> what you are doing (for example you'bve got a switch open correspodning >> to an empty slot). It is better, IMHO, to actuall trace the fault and be >> sure it is an NPG problem before changing anything. Otherwise you will >> get in a muddle very quickly. > > > Right. Random flipping of switches is no way to troubleshooting. > > Johnny > It was in fact the NPR grant. I thought I had all the dipswitches closed, but instead they were all open; misread the legend on the switches. Problem solved! Camiel. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 10 14:42:24 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 PSU specs In-Reply-To: <50255B84.2090801@gmail.com> References: <50255B84.2090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > I finally got hold of that PSU-less C64 that I mentioned on the list a few > weeks ago, followed by a 9VAC PSU to test it with. Other than needing the > VIC-II and associated ICs re-seating I've not encountered any problems (I've > not tested the 1541 yet though due to lack of a cable). > > Anyway, I'd like to sort out a better PSU for the machine itself until I can > get a genuine one from somewhere - does anyone know what a reasonable max > current draw on the 9VAC lines might be? (This is an original 'breadbox' > machine) > > The wall-wart 9VAC PSU that I found for testing is only rated for 400mA, > which I suspect might be on the low side; I've seen claims of needing 1A or > more, and http://www.hardwarebook.info/C64/128_User_Port only states 100mA > max for the user port, suggesting that the machine itself might require quite > a lot under certain conditions. There is a bunch of discussion about this over at the midibox.org forums. They've come up with a couple designs for replacement linear supplies and have specced out some switchers. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 10 14:48:28 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:48:28 -0600 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <002101cd7719$9cac2eb0$d6048c10$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <002101cd7719$9cac2eb0$d6048c10$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: In article <002101cd7719$9cac2eb0$d6048c10$@YAHOO.COM>, "Andrew Lynch" writes: > On a similar vein, I am aware of X Window(s) server for the VESA API for VGA > boards. Most all VGA boards adhere to the VESA standard and provides quite > a bit of portability although performance is generally fairly low. Would it > be possible/feasible to create a VESA API for a NEC uPD7220A video board? Generally, it's easier (with the book) to simply port the X server to the real hardware interface instead of trying to emulate another interface. > At the N8VEM home brew computing project we already have a NEC uPD7220A > board that works and has been debugged. However creating software for it > has proven to be problematic. I believe the places where I've seen the 7220 used was in a terminal. I can't recall specific models off the top of my head. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 10 14:50:48 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:50:48 -0600 Subject: Apollo DN590 workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 2:52 PM, Richard wrote: > > Anyone got one? > > > > It's supposedly the first Apollo workstation to support 24-bit truecolor.[1 ] > > I have an Apollo 580 in the back of my container. i think it is a > 580T. Last running about 15 years ago. Don't you mean 590T? I didn't see a 580T listed here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 10 14:51:24 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:51:24 -0600 Subject: recreation of a nearly 30 year old environment..... In-Reply-To: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: What environment is it recreating? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 14:14:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:14:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Aug 9, 12 10:59:49 pm Message-ID: > > [...] Simulating not only the architecture, but the sounds, > > smells, colors, textures, and so forth. Yes, virtual reality. > > When I started reading about the 7090 (oh no! I brought the subject > back to it's original context!), I was thinking of adding a 3D machine > room simulation graphics front end to the existing 7090 SIMH > implementation. You would navigate the machine room and load tapes, > card decks, etc., and watch your output print on the printer. Adding > HVAC, etc., noises wouldn't be hard either. Unfortunately I don't > have the time to code this... it's going on my list of google summer > of code projects ocne I get 501(c)3 status. One big differnece. PC sound systems have volume controls and can be turned off totally (e.g. by unplugging the speakcers). The incidental noises from real hardware cannont be so controleld. You have ot put up with them. And there';s another differnece. If you make a mess running a simulator, you drop the virtual card deck, or you mis-configure soemthing, format the systmne disk pack (even, if the simualtor ever gets to that level, you drop a screwdriver int oa running machine and short the maisns to a bus line), you can restoe the simualtor files from a backup nad try again. Do that on the real hardware and you might have a long day ahead of you. That _is_ part of the xperience of running such a macbhine, though, It has been suggested that the fact that if you are 'killed' in a video game you can restart and have another go has led certain classes ot people to not treat human life as seriously as they should. You can't 'reboot' if you've just been shot by a real gun. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 14:17:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:17:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Aug 9, 12 10:07:28 pm Message-ID: > I remember back in the good old days (mine were in the mid 70's on) that > I wish I had simulators because even when this crap was new it was a > pain in the ass. I'm into hardware and all, but software and a > simulator will present the same thing thru a terminal as the real thing, > sometimes better, which is an added plus. If it's 'better' then IMHO it's not a faithful simulation. The fact that you had to leave the machine running overnight to get something complied _is_ part of running a classic computer. The fact that if you bang the table, the RANopack wobbles and you lose everything _is_ part of running a ZX81. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 13:51:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:51:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Aug 9, 12 08:17:58 pm Message-ID: > Electronics are simply going to fail no matter if you use them or not. > Most electronic components simply can't last forever. Preciisely my point. Storing it and never running it will _not_ allow it to last for ever. In fact you might well find that when it is turned on sometime in the future, it deosn't run, and can't be made ot run again. In which case you might as well have run it now and had some use out of it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 14:20:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:20:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 10, 12 01:19:23 am Message-ID: > Keep in mind that the design tools that can be used to reverse > engineer VLSI chips will also continue to improve. These days, taking > a first generation logic IC and *completely* reverse engineering it is > completely feasible even with outdated tools. What will it be like in > 2042? Fancy SGI VLSI may turn out to be child's play. If the IC has failed then it might be impossible to reverse-engineer it even in principle. It depends on the failure mode, I guess. But if it depeended on stored charge (anything EPROM or Flash related) then you might not be able to work out what was and was not chargerd after said sharge has leaked away. If dopants have migrated, redering n and p regions not waht they should eb, then again you may have no way of knowing just how they were origianlly. > > So yes, I tend to be an optimist here. Yes, and somebody might invent a time machine that can go back to the time of the original design and copy the original design documents. Perosnalyl I prefer to work with what I know ot be possible. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 13:55:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:55:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC SB11 info In-Reply-To: <50247D31.3010100@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 9, 12 08:17:05 pm Message-ID: > Yes, that's what it turned out to be (a BA11-VA). And after I > discovered I was using the wrong fuses (thought I had grabbed a 3A, but > it was a 2A) it stopped blowing them on powerup :). I now have a very Ah.... :-) I once had a considerably more evil problem. I had an SMPSU (actually part of a small monitor) that blew the mains fuse sfotly at power-on. By 'softly', I mean it jsut failed, it didn't 'flash' or shatter. I removed the chopper transitor, the fuses continuied to blow,. so I thought the fualt was i nthe bridge rectifier or smooting capcitors. Everything checked out. And then by chance I found it. You see, I ran out of fuses, so I went and bought soem more. Fitted one of those, it held. Cacpaitors charged fine. Refitted the chopper transisotr, it still ehld and the entire montiro worked fine. These wew 1A (IIC) anti-surge fuses. It turned out that the ones I'd just bougth were a differnet brand ot the oens I had been using. The inrush current must have been a bit high (perghaps the limiter thermsitor was marginal or soemthing). One make of fuse would blow at that current, the oterh didn;. As I said, evil... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 13:59:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:59:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 9, 12 11:29:03 pm Message-ID: > > > Electronics are simply going to fail no matter if you use them or not. Most > > electronic components simply can't last forever. > > Nothing lasts forever. Get used to it. Which is a darn good reason to use them and investigae them while the are still 'lasting'. > > But using electronics makes forever a much shorter time - there are > bushels of engineering studies on component reliability out there if > you do not believe me. Oh, I believe you. Althoguh I suspect power cycling can do more harm than leavign things running. It is also an observed, and well-documetned fact that many pigments fade or change colour under exposure to light. Particularly near-UV, but visible light will do it too. So that displaying an Old Master painting is going to damage it. And yet art galleries do not keep their paintings in totally dark rooms. The whole point of a painint is to be viewed, and to do that takes light. Of course they are careful about the ligth they use, and keep some particualrly fragile examples in dimly lit rooms. But they still display them, for all it will damage them in the end. And a particular Old Master painting is a lot rarer, and a lot harder to restore, than a classic computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 14:02:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:02:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> from "Paul Anderson" at Aug 10, 12 00:15:31 am Message-ID: > > Simulating everything for a computer museum is like a regular museum > having nothing but reproduction artifacts. It doesn't work well. > > But, not everyone can get to the hardware. I've been playing with > OpenVMS lately myself, using simh to emulate a VAX. My goal is to get a > VAX machine, but for now the simulator has to suffice. Oh, undoubtedly simulators ahve tier use. But they are not a replacement for running the real hardware in some instances. I would argure that a book of reproductions of famous paintings has its use too. It would allow me to see paintings that I otherwise would never see (becuase they are in a private ocllection, or in an art gallery that it's not practical for me to vist, for example). But this does not mean that such books are always a replacement for galleries. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 14:07:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:07:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 10, 12 00:40:56 am Message-ID: > >>>> So how can the current generation learn about their computer heritage? > >>>> Replicas? Reproductions? > > I replied: > > > Simulators are good. > > Note no museum use was mentioned. Oh come now. The ewhole context of this sub-thread was museums. If you want to change that then fine, But at least tell us! Fore example : 'Simulaotrs are good becasue you can run them at home and don't need to go to a museum. And you can run whatever you like on them.' > > Simulators work well for this, and can be run from the comfort of > anyone's home. No museum required. > > So please reconsider your post and how things were actually said. And please make it clear what you are talking about. > Please do not stoop to Tony's level, twisting my words at any occasion > - you will end up soiling your reputation (back to the "don't be a > dick" idea). You are a terminal idiot. Period. > Anyway, here is a fun thought experiment. Consider two absolutely > identical big machines from the 1960s. Take one, and restore it to > operation. Take the other, and put it into a museum archive and > preserved. Wait 30 years. Now, in 2042, compare the two machines. The > running one will be quite a bit more "used" than the preserved one, > just from normal wear and tear on the components. Now here is the > twist - in 30 years ago, simulators will be magnitudes beyond what we > have today. Simulating not only the architecture, but the sounds, > smells, colors, textures, and so forth. Yes, virtual reality. Now, > what would you want your near perfect simulation to be based off of - > the machine that was used far longer than its normal working history, > or the one that was preserved as it was just taken out of service? Well, given that thwe one that's bneen in storage for 30 years probalby won't still work, while the one that's keen kept running probably will (albeit with some components replaced over the years), I think the answer is obvious :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 14:37:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:37:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5024BC34.3020907@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at Aug 10, 12 08:45:56 am Message-ID: > I think simulation has its place. So for example at MOSI there are a It does... > number of ASR33 TTYs and a small mini computer for which I think the > disk packs are missing. Now they are never going to get the mini running Why not? Is it impossible to write find the OS anywhere else? Or to writ at least soemthign that talks to the termianl ports? > but I would imagine the ASR33s are not beyond repair, they look > reasonably clean. So is it legitimate top connect these to some kind of A vvery clean ASR33 is not good. It may eman it's never seen the business end of an oil can... > simulation (Raspberry PI based perhaps) to give folks the experience of > using a TTY with auithentic old software? Wait a second... If you have the 'authentic old software', why can it not be run on the mini? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 14:40:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:40:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Aug 10, 12 03:51:47 am Message-ID: > > > Simulators also help do something with software that running > > artifacts can't do. [...] > > Yes...this whole discussion of whether simulators are better than the > real thing strikes me as rather silly. Simulators and original > hardware are different. For some purposes, one is better; for others, > the other. I'm glad we have both, and would be sorry to lose either. Agreed. Although I can't think of anything I could use a simulator for at the moment... > > Not entirely unlike hands-on versus just-look museum exhibits. I am trying to think of soemthing that you can do with a 'jsut look' exhibit that you cannot also do if that exhibit is run from time to time. OK, I will agree it is better to dismantle a machine when it's not running, but no museum (quite rightly) allows visitors to pull the exhibits apart :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 10 14:50:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:50:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tractor Feed Teletype? In-Reply-To: from "Jarratt RMA" at Aug 10, 12 06:16:04 pm Message-ID: > > Someone I know on this list has an ASR33 Teletype which has a tractor feed. > I am sure that all the ones I used at the time were friction feed. Was > tractor feed a common thing on these terminals? I don;t think it was common (at least not for 'computer-interfaced' ASR33s (all that I have ever seen have been friction feed), but the pastsbook shows exploded diagrams of the tractor feed version. IIRC the plated knob was metal and the had a large button on the end to disengage the tractor mechasnim wehen loading paper. I may have a couple of spare knobs in my junk box, but no other parts of this mechanism. -tony From colineby at isallthat.com Fri Aug 10 15:08:47 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:08:47 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <201208101709.NAA13024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <201208101709.NAA13024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I run these systems (have about 8) with the SCA adapters. Space is not an issue. Mouse wrote: >>> IIRC the 43p used 68-pin SCSI LVD drives so that shouldn't be SO >>> hard to fix. Depends on the model. Mine uses the 50-pin drive. >> You can always use one of these: >> http://www.amazon.com/SCA-80-PIN-SCSI-ADAPTER/dp/B0058V1UWS (well >> the appropriate one for your situation) > >I assume that's the adapter the URL makes it sound like? Maybe. Some >machines don't have enough mechanical space to insert an adapter. > >> Off the top of my head: using a 50 pin drive on a 68 pin machine >> means you slow down and lose the ID range, > >Depends. If you do it right, you slow down only when using the narrow >drive(s); wide devices on the same bus can run at full wide speed - and >wide devices can sit on IDs 8-15; it's only the narrow devices that are >confined to the narrow device range. > >If you do it right, of course. In many cases it's relatively easy to >do it wrong and end up with everything running narrow. > >/~\ The ASCII Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B -- Colin From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 15:09:16 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:09:16 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > On 8/10/12 10:53 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > > If you or anyone else has some insight on how to implement a register > > compatible SVGA on the S-100 bus I am very willing to listen! Thanks > > and have a nice day! > > > > I guess I'm not clear on what your requirements are for this S-100 video > display. > Rather than working backwards from the chips that are available, what do > you want to DO with it? resolution, bit depth, frame rate, frame buffer > organization (planar or chunky pixels). I assume the target is a common video > output format like RGB VGA. Hi! The goal for the S-100 VGA board is to make a register compatible SVGA that uses commonly available VGA monitors. The application would be an X server for the upcoming S-100 80386 CPU board. Also to provide a greater degree of PC/XT/AT compatibility for the S-100 80286, S-100 8086, and S-100 8088 CPU boards. Presumably, an S-100 SVGA board would also be usable by non-Intel x86 CPU boards as well but that is optional. If VGA is not viable then we need to explore other options to provide a bitmap display for the X server. The primary goal of the S-100 80386 CPU board project is to run a "modern sophisticated" operating system such as Linux and/or NetBSD. Both require a 32 bit ISA, an MMU, and a whole lot of RAM. Yes, you can run both without an X server but sooner or later you'll almost certainly want some sort of graphical interface because much current software assumes a GUI. Potentially any solution for the S-100 80386 could potentially be applied to the MC68040 SBC also currently in development. The technical specifications, such as they exist, are quite modest. IBM VGA register compatibility with 16 color, 800x600, 60 Hz refresh rate, and no preference for frame buffer. The closer to compatible with the stock IBM VGA the better. It does have to be "buildable" by hobbyists though so certain technologies are undesirable (SMT and programmable logic) or unacceptable (BGA). There is no preference for any particular chipset however it cannot rely on an undocumented BIOS which has proven to be the fatal flaw with the CLGD542x chipset (**please** someone prove me wrong and post a commented CL GD542x BIOS listing!) S-100 80386 http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%2080386%2 0CPU%20board S-100 SVGA http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20VGA Further complicating matters is that all the "open source VGA" projects I am aware of have fizzled as well. This is a non-trivial problem and may not be solvable with a VGA chipset. Thus the interest in NEC uPD7220 as an alternative. http://hackaday.com/2012/06/05/open-source-graphics-card/ http://wacco.mveas.com/ http://wiki.opengraphics.org/tiki-index.php Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From colineby at isallthat.com Fri Aug 10 15:14:22 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:14:22 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3346be86-ee89-4c60-bf4d-346044354fbf@email.android.com> The system backup (mksysb) should be restorable without a base image. Check the man page for permutations. Other types of file backup won't work. As for AIX licenses, I'd like to hear a formal pronouncement on this. I believe the position, last time I inquired, was having the hardware implied a license but not maintenance. If you 'acquire' the appropriate media, I think you are alright to run it. Basically 4.1.x to 5.3.x on most 43Ps, but especially the black ones. I'm sure someone can jump up and call me a fibber on this one. So check my facts. John Many Jars wrote: >Do IBM do AIX hobby licenses? Hmmm.... I don't have any media for the >dead machine. I do have a mysterious backup tape, but I bet you need >the OS working to install that. > >On 10 August 2012 18:18, David Riley wrote: >> > >-- >Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" >Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > >-------- >"I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all >the facts are in. " > >General "Buck" Turgidson -- Colin From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 10 15:18:22 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:18:22 +0200 Subject: recreation of a nearly 30 year old environment..... In-Reply-To: References: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Have you looked around? The 'par' command may give you a hint. > > What environment is it recreating? > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 15:23:20 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: recreation of a nearly 30 year old environment..... In-Reply-To: References: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1344630200.91081.YahooMailNeo@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> From: Richard >>>What environment is it recreating? >login Account or name: guest1 Password: RSX-11M-PLUS V3.0? BL24?? [1,54] System???? RSXORA 10-AUG-12 20:44? Logged on Terminal TT5:? as USR12 Good Evening ? ?? ?***************************************************************** ?? ?*?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? * ?? ?*??????????????????? Welcome to RSX-11M-PLUS??????????????????? * ?? ?*?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? * ?? ?*????????????????? Version 3.0? Base level 24?????????????????? * ?? ?*??????????????? This is file LB:[1,2]LOGIN.TXT???????????????? * ?? ?*?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? * ?? ?***************************************************************** From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 10 15:30:25 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: from John Many Jars at "Aug 10, 12 06:54:43 pm" Message-ID: <201208102030.q7AKUPlE14483456@floodgap.com> > Do IBM do AIX hobby licenses? In general, the AIX license comes with the machine, so any media set that is compatible will do. My POWER6 uses bought-off-eBay AIX 6. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Two wrongs don't make a right, but they do make a great TV movie. ---------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 10 15:43:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> Message-ID: <20120810133920.X56329@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, William Donzelli wrote: > Anyway, here is a fun thought experiment. Consider two absolutely > identical big machines from the 1960s. Take one, and restore it to > operation. Take the other, and put it into a museum archive and > preserved. Wait 30 years. Now, in 2042, compare the two machines. The > running one will be quite a bit more "used" than the preserved one, > just from normal wear and tear on the components. Now here is the > twist - in 30 years ago, simulators will be magnitudes beyond what we > have today. Simulating not only the architecture, but the sounds, > smells, colors, textures, and so forth. Yes, virtual reality. Now, when will smell-o-vision be coming back? > what would you want your near perfect simulation to be based off of - > the machine that was used far longer than its normal working history, > or the one that was preserved as it was just taken out of service? The old "well broken in" one, not the factory demo! From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 10 15:59:57 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:59:57 -0700 Subject: C64 PSU specs In-Reply-To: <50255B84.2090801@gmail.com> References: <50255B84.2090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Anyway, I'd like to sort out a better PSU for the machine itself until I > can get a genuine one from somewhere - does anyone know what a reasonable > max current draw on the 9VAC lines might be? (This is an original > 'breadbox' machine) I'd worry less about a genuine PowerSupply, and more about getting a good one! A few years back I got a good one off of eBay. It's a 3rd party supply noted for being repairable, and being able to provide more current than genuine Powersupplies. The genuine Commodore PS's suck. > The wall-wart 9VAC PSU that I found for testing is only rated for 400mA, > which I suspect might be on the low side; I've seen claims of needing 1A > or > more, and http://www.hardwarebook.info/C64/128_User_Port only states 100mA > max for the user port, suggesting that the machine itself might require > quite a lot under certain conditions. Just how much depends on what you have plugged into it. IIRC, one of the big power drains is an REU. I really need to figure out how to find space to setup my main C64 in my Office! I miss being able to use it! Zane From wolfgang at eichberger.org Fri Aug 10 16:25:02 2012 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:25:02 +0200 Subject: recreation of a nearly 30 year old environment..... In-Reply-To: References: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Nice. Where did you get the old Oracle Version? Regards, W. 2012/8/10 Richard > > What environment is it recreating? > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 10 16:37:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20120810143433.H56329@shell.lmi.net> > > And of course with out simulators modern hardware never could be made. On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: > When the 68000 (68-thousand) first came out, Moto provided a > simulator (written in FORTRAN, TMK) to run on IBM 360/70 hardware (or > at least that's what we ran it on, under MTS). I believe that was > quite common as the 360/70 arch. was so prevalent, particularly > amongst time-sharing services and computing centres. Is there a 360/70 simulator that will run on 68K Macs? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 16:42:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:42:31 -0700 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM>, <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org>, <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <50251DD7.1154.1664E32@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2012 at 16:09, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! The goal for the S-100 VGA board is to make a register compatible > SVGA that uses commonly available VGA monitors. The application would > be an X server for the upcoming S-100 80386 CPU board. Also to > provide a greater degree of PC/XT/AT compatibility for the S-100 > 80286, S-100 8086, and S-100 8088 CPU boards. Presumably, an S-100 > SVGA board would also be usable by non-Intel x86 CPU boards as well > but that is optional. If VGA is not viable then we need to explore > other options to provide a bitmap display for the X server. Hi Andrew, It's not hard to get to VGA scan frequencies without using a VGA chip. The AT&T 6300 did it using nothing more than a modified CGA card. Your design might be limited to 16 colors using nothing more than a 6845 CRTC, but if the goal was a simple 640x480 display, that might be enough. It all depends upon what you're willing to settle for. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 16:42:34 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:42:34 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 10 August 2012 20:37 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > > > I think simulation has its place. So for example at MOSI there are a > > It does... > > > number of ASR33 TTYs and a small mini computer for which I think the > > disk packs are missing. Now they are never going to get the > mini running > > Why not? Is it impossible to write find the OS anywhere else? > Or to writ > at least soemthign that talks to the termianl ports? > Several reasons think:- 1. Lack of documentation 2. Money 3. The "Museum" things we have already mentioned. 4. General condition. There are many alloy parts which have corroded. I don't think the system was taken appart with any care. More info on the object can be found here, but these don't really reflect the current condition of the objects:- http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/display.php?details=full&ir n=12706&QueryPage=%2Fhtmlmn%2Fcollections%2Fonline%2Fsearch.php§ion= http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/web/pages/common/imagedisplay_mosi.php?&irn=67 76&size=543x600 But I would like to try.. > > but I would imagine the ASR33s are not beyond repair, they look > > reasonably clean. So is it legitimate top connect these to > some kind of > > A vvery clean ASR33 is not good. It may eman it's never seen > the business > end of an oil can... > They have oil in the proper places.... > > simulation (Raspberry PI based perhaps) to give folks the > experience > > of > > using a TTY with auithentic old software? > > Wait a second... If you have the 'authentic old software', > why can it not > be run on the mini? > Not sure if we have that for that particular mini. There is one disk pack.... > -tony > Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 10 16:44:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5024DD70.24802.6ABC95@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <5024DD70.24802.6ABC95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120810144329.J56329@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > FORTRAN, as long as you stayed away from vendor extensions, really > could be portable across a much wider range of hardware than that > supported by, say, C. "more portable than syphilis" From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Aug 10 16:49:53 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:49:53 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 References: Message-ID: Original Message: Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:53:41 -0400 From: "Andrew Lynch" .... The NEC uPD7220 readily adapts itself to the S-100 bus and provides a nice VGA monitor compatible bitmap. However it is completely non-VGA compatible and really is as different from the MC6845 derivative as can possibly exist. It uses a totally different approach down to the philosophical theory of design! If you or anyone else has some insight on how to implement a register compatible SVGA on the S-100 bus I am very willing to listen! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch -------Reply:------- Isn't it always the way... a couple of weeks ago I finally threw out about 4" worth of detailed OEM documentation about designing for and implementing PCChips VGA chips, among others... The NCR Decision Mate (for one) used the 7220 and I even still have some of the guts of one including the video board if it's any use to anyone. IIRC there were some drivers etc. to make them semi-compatible with the PC; maybe you can find something useful among the NCR crowd? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 10 16:52:00 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:52:00 -0600 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: In article <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM>, "Andrew Lynch" writes: > Hi! The goal for the S-100 VGA board is to make a register compatible SVGA > that uses commonly available VGA monitors. The application would be an X > server for the upcoming S-100 80386 CPU board. [...] So your X server is basially running in an embedded environment? Or are you planning on having some sort of unix for the X server to run on? As distributed, the X server assumes things like a unix process model, bsd sockets, virtual memory, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 10 17:16:42 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120810151533.W56329@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > It has been suggested that the fact that if you are 'killed' in a video > game you can restart and have another go has led certain classes ot > people to not treat human life as seriously as they should. You can't > 'reboot' if you've just been shot by a real gun. The obvious solution is to simply improve the simulations to give them the capability of killing the user. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 10 17:45:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:45:40 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120810133920.X56329@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120810133920.X56329@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50252CA4.29773.1A0213C@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2012 at 13:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > The old "well broken in" one, not the factory demo! Well, maybe not. Two of my co-workers at CDC had intimate experience with 6600 SN/1. One fellow was fresh out of school--his first assignment was to measure all of the twisted-pair taper-pin backplane loops to which Seymour had attached a tag that said "TUNE". The second fellow was a CE who had to service the thing. It apparently had been "modified" a bit over the years so that (IIRC) the floating divide instruction didn't give the same results as all of the other 6000s out in the field... Doesn't CHM have at least part of S/N 1? That would certainly be a head-scratcher when it came to servicing... --Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 17:52:16 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 08:52:16 +1000 Subject: IBM 5324? - was Items free for pickup; Iowa Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:56 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > IBM 5324 w/keyboard and monitor > I've never powered this on and the drive knobs were snapped off prior to > my receiving it. My understanding is this is a binary compatible System/34 > in baby shoes, but I might be full of it. > my search-fu is weak or that is a tough machine to find much about, anyone have any further details? is it part of the IBM Datamaster family? I found pictures here: http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/ibm/5324/ and JP's video pans past the console terminal here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgECJPIU1AI#t=5m40s and an overall view here (lower right under the bench): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgECJPIU1AI#t=9m47s From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 10 17:55:00 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:55:00 -0600 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <50259144.8030009@brouhaha.com> Andrew wrote: > However, implementing an SVGA on the S-100 bus is a non-trivial > exercise as well. What a surprise, that implementing SVGA that was developed in the late 1980s would be difficult using 1970s technology. > even just finding a chipset that is compatible > with the S-100 bus has proven to be extremely difficult. Another big surprise, that chips designed for 2000s buses are hard to use on 1970s buses. > We've resorted to > using the Propeller The Propeller is not going to get you anywhere for this project; it's good for some things, but this isn't one of them. > and even an FPGA (Spartan 3) based approach but none > provide the low level VGA compatibility or even a usable bitmap graphics > mode. There's no reason an FPGA can't provide VGA compatibility or a usable bitmap graphics mode. I've done several bitmap graphics projects in Spartan 3s without any difficulty to speak of, though I wasn't trying for VGA compatibility. If you want to build a VGA controller without using a VGA chip, then you have to build a VGA controller. There's no way around it. > If you or anyone else has some insight on how to implement a register > compatible SVGA on the S-100 bus I am very willing to listen! There are only two (somewhat) practical approaches: use a VGA chip (such as the CL part you tried), and somehow kludge it onto the S-100 bus, or use an FPGA. Neither approach is easy, but that's because VGA by its nature is complicated. It's the same reason you won't find "Quantum Electrodynamics for Dummies" at your local bookstore or library. Of the two, using the CL part should require less engineering, since designing a bus interface is two or three orders of magnitude less complex than designing an entire VGA controller. What problem did you run into with the CL chip? Were you using it in ISA-bus mode? Since it is a bus slave only, it doesn't seem like it should be that difficult to talk to it. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 10 18:31:30 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:31:30 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120810151533.W56329@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120810151533.W56329@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <502599D2.4010205@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/10/2012 4:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> It has been suggested that the fact that if you are 'killed' in a video >> game you can restart and have another go has led certain classes ot >> people to not treat human life as seriously as they should. You can't >> 'reboot' if you've just been shot by a real gun. > > The obvious solution is to simply improve the simulations to give them the > capability of killing the user. > You mean like in this novel. http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Sword_Art_Online Ben. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 18:45:00 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:45:00 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50252CA4.29773.1A0213C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120810133920.X56329@shell.lmi.net> <50252CA4.29773.1A0213C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >> The old "well broken in" one, not the factory demo! Taken out of service does not mean factory demo. (yes, Chuck, I know this was not you saying this). > Well, maybe not. Two of my co-workers at CDC had intimate experience > with 6600 SN/1. One fellow was fresh out of school--his first > assignment was to measure all of the twisted-pair taper-pin backplane > loops to which Seymour had attached a tag that said "TUNE". The > second fellow was a CE who had to service the thing. It apparently > had been "modified" a bit over the years so that (IIRC) the floating > divide instruction didn't give the same results as all of the other > 6000s out in the field... I understand that all of the early 6600s were in some way unique, and it was not until maybe around number 20 when the design settled down. -- Will From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 18:56:13 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:56:13 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <50251DD7.1154.1664E32@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM>, <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org>, <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> <50251DD7.1154.1664E32@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001c01cd7753$c664d420$532e7c60$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 5:43 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > On 10 Aug 2012 at 16:09, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > > Hi! The goal for the S-100 VGA board is to make a register compatible > > SVGA that uses commonly available VGA monitors. The application would > > be an X server for the upcoming S-100 80386 CPU board. Also to > > provide a greater degree of PC/XT/AT compatibility for the S-100 > > 80286, S-100 8086, and S-100 8088 CPU boards. Presumably, an S-100 > > SVGA board would also be usable by non-Intel x86 CPU boards as well > > but that is optional. If VGA is not viable then we need to explore > > other options to provide a bitmap display for the X server. > > Hi Andrew, > > It's not hard to get to VGA scan frequencies without using a VGA chip. The > AT&T 6300 did it using nothing more than a modified CGA card. Your design > might be limited to 16 colors using nothing more than a 6845 CRTC, but if the > goal was a simple 640x480 display, that might be enough. > > It all depends upon what you're willing to settle for. > > --Chuck Hi Chuck! Yes, that's probably true assuming there is a 6845 clone that is fast enough. However a custom S-100 MC6845 video board that's not VGA compatible has the same lack of software problem as the S-100 uPD7220. I already have a known working ECB uPD7220 board that works great and is compatible with VGA monitors. Adapting it to the S-100 bus turns out to be a relatively easy problem since it is an IO port only design. It is very simple and it is essentially ready for prototype boards right now. What a VGA compatible design brings to the table is the installed base of legacy software for the PC. It would be much easier to adapt an existing PC Linux X11 implementation than to start from scratch with a completely new board. It looks like the former option may be our only choice though. I would think a X Window server without acceleration for the NEC uPD7220 would be about the same speed for a basic VGA. There is nothing I am aware of on the basic VGA that makes it particularly fast. Hardware BITBLT was not introduced until the VGA accelerators came along years later after the original VGA was introduced (1987 IIRC). Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 18:56:13 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:56:13 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001d01cd7753$c6d4acf0$547e06d0$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of MikeS > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 5:50 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > Original Message: > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:53:41 -0400 > From: "Andrew Lynch" > > .... > The NEC uPD7220 readily adapts itself to the S-100 bus and provides a nice > VGA monitor compatible bitmap. However it is completely non-VGA > compatible and really is as different from the MC6845 derivative as can > possibly exist. > It uses a totally different approach down to the philosophical theory of > design! > > If you or anyone else has some insight on how to implement a register > compatible SVGA on the S-100 bus I am very willing to listen! Thanks and > have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > -------Reply:------- > > Isn't it always the way... a couple of weeks ago I finally threw out about 4" > worth of detailed OEM documentation about designing for and implementing > PCChips VGA chips, among others... > > The NCR Decision Mate (for one) used the 7220 and I even still have some of > the guts of one including the video board if it's any use to anyone. IIRC there > were some drivers etc. to make them semi-compatible with the PC; maybe > you can find something useful among the NCR crowd? Hi Mike! If you find any commented VGA BIOS source listing in your stash please don't throw them away. We may have to modify our approach to finding a commented VGA BIOS source listing and building the S-100 VGA board around that chipset rather than some other rational approach. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 18:56:13 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:56:13 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 5:52 PM > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > > In article <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM>, > "Andrew Lynch" writes: > > > Hi! The goal for the S-100 VGA board is to make a register compatible > > SVGA that uses commonly available VGA monitors. The application would > > be an X server for the upcoming S-100 80386 CPU board. [...] > > So your X server is basially running in an embedded environment? > > Or are you planning on having some sort of unix for the X server to run on? > > As distributed, the X server assumes things like a unix process model, bsd > sockets, virtual memory, etc. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) Hi The plan is to run Linux or NetBSD on the S-100 80386 CPU board which would also be running the X window server. I've installed and run NetBSD on other obscure hardware and it is probably the easiest of the Un*x like OS to port so I am assuming we'll start with it. I just ordered the initial round of S-100 80386 CPU board prototypes this morning. These will only use memory and IO on the S-100 bus which hard limits the address space to 16 MB (24 bits). The next iteration and production boards will use a mezzanine or "over the top" connector for a DRAM board to get to 128/256/512 MB. We have to get the basic CPU working first though. Today I think I've discovered that there aren't any commented publicly available VGA BIOS sources *at all* which really terrifies me. It may be that the VGA approach is simply not viable on the S-100 bus if essential initialization source code is not available. I hope I am wrong though. However, we'll still have the backup plan to use other non-VGA compatible chips. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 10 18:59:26 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:59:26 -0700 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <50259144.8030009@brouhaha.com> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50259144.8030009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5025A05E.6010606@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/12 3:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > There are only two (somewhat) practical approaches: use a VGA chip (such as the CL part you tried), and somehow kludge it onto the S-100 bus, or use an FPGA. Or flip the whole thing on its head and glue a PC104 SBC onto an S-100 card so you end up doing just an ISA - S100 adapter. http://www.wdlsystems.com/modperl/view_services.cgi?r=detail&prod_num=1EVX650&aisle_id=987 I didn't look very hard to see if there were any other modules under $100 From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Aug 10 19:09:03 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:09:03 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: The S/360 is still mostly around. These days in the form of IBM z Series. In 2007, I was working as an admin on a couple z900s running z/OS. That was my first exposure to a system that didn't have a hierarchical filesystem. I learned JCL and REXX. I'm still quite fond of RACF, wish more systems had something like it. It's unfortunate that the system is so hard to get your hands on. I'd like to keep up on it, but having a job where you admin it is nearly the one way to get access. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-10, at 12:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Aug 10, at 9:04 AM, ben wrote: >> >> And of course with out simulators modern hardware never could be made. > ... > >> Back to FORTRAN. At one time utilities for new hardware (1970's) was written in FORTRAN to >> portable. Any idea what machines they expected the programs to be ran on? > > > When the 68000 (68-thousand) first came out, Moto provided a simulator (written in FORTRAN, TMK) to run on IBM 360/70 hardware (or at least that's what we ran it on, under MTS). I believe that was quite common as the 360/70 arch. was so prevalent, particularly amongst time-sharing services and computing centres. > From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Aug 10 19:23:52 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:23:52 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120810143433.H56329@shell.lmi.net> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> <20120810143433.H56329@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F8A93E5-041B-4858-B55E-EA26F03C3724@me.com> Hercules should work: http://www.hercules-390.org/ -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-10, at 5:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> And of course with out simulators modern hardware never could be made. > On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> When the 68000 (68-thousand) first came out, Moto provided a >> simulator (written in FORTRAN, TMK) to run on IBM 360/70 hardware (or >> at least that's what we ran it on, under MTS). I believe that was >> quite common as the 360/70 arch. was so prevalent, particularly >> amongst time-sharing services and computing centres. > > Is there a 360/70 simulator that will run on 68K Macs? > > From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 19:41:57 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:41:57 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <50259144.8030009@brouhaha.com> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50259144.8030009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000f01cd775a$36a530d0$a3ef9270$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Eric Smith [snip] > What problem did you run into with the CL chip? Were you using it in ISA-bus > mode? Since it is a bus slave only, it doesn't seem like it should be that > difficult to talk to it. > > Eric Hi After several attempts, the CL GD5420 chip would not respond at all on the S-100 bus. There is a page here on the project http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/VGA%20Board/VGA%20Board.htm Sometimes things work out and sometimes not so much. There is a third prototype board in build and test but it isn't cooperating either. Without the commented VGA BIOS source listing it is very difficult if not impossible to know exactly what is not working properly. There is just so much about this complex chip we don't know. We've already designed an FPGA style S-100 VGA solution based on the Mylium LAVA. However it has all the same problems as the NEC uPD7220 (not VGA compatible and all software would have to be written from scratch). Also we would need the next generation of Mylium LAVA (Spartan) to get usable VGA bitmap graphics. The technology just is not there yet. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 10 19:57:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:57:54 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4F8A93E5-041B-4858-B55E-EA26F03C3724@me.com> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> <20120810143433.H56329@shell.lmi.net> <4F8A93E5-041B-4858-B55E-EA26F03C3724@me.com> Message-ID: <5025AE12.3020707@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/12 5:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hercules should work: > > http://www.hercules-390.org/ >> Is there a 360/70 simulator that will run on 68K Macs? Doubtful. We fixed a lot of problems with memory management when Apple went to PowerPC. The 68K runtime has major problems dealing with large chunks of memory. Running a big simulation on MacOS 68K is a chore. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:07:49 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:07:49 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > You are a terminal idiot. Period. Yes, I know. That is why I direct all my terminal inquiries to Ian or Richard. -- Will From james at slor.net Fri Aug 10 20:29:53 2012 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:29:53 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a801cd7760$cf453f00$6dcfbd00$@slor.net> >> If you want an HP-UX 10.20 install CD (what I run on mine) to try with >> it, drop me a direct line. > If you're able to run HP-UX on IBM Risc architecture, that's quite a trick! Yeah, yeah. I was pretty much a dolt today, but at least the day's over now. I've tried to compensate by killing some brain cells (just the bad ones) this afternoon. :) From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:39:08 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <00a801cd7760$cf453f00$6dcfbd00$@slor.net> References: <00a801cd7760$cf453f00$6dcfbd00$@slor.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, James wrote: >>> If you want an HP-UX 10.20 install CD (what I run on mine) to try with >>> it, drop me a direct line. > >> If you're able to run HP-UX on IBM Risc architecture, that's quite a > trick! > > Yeah, yeah. I was pretty much a dolt today, but at least the day's over > now. I've tried to compensate by killing some brain cells (just the bad > ones) this afternoon. :) Given the week I've had, I can empathize. -- From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Aug 10 20:40:54 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:40:54 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <022D599F-0CE1-46A6-8774-5AE472E6DC91@me.com> Serial or twinax? -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-10, at 9:07 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> You are a terminal idiot. Period. > > Yes, I know. That is why I direct all my terminal inquiries to Ian or Richard. > > -- > Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 21:27:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:27:09 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k memory management In-Reply-To: <5025AE12.3020707@bitsavers.org> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> <20120810143433.H56329@shell.lmi.net> <4F8A93E5-041B-4858-B55E-EA26F03C3724@me.com> <5025AE12.3020707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Aug 10, 2012, at 20:57, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/10/12 5:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> Hercules should work: >> >> http://www.hercules-390.org/ > >>> Is there a 360/70 simulator that will run on 68K Macs? > > > Doubtful. We fixed a lot of problems with memory management when Apple > went to PowerPC. The 68K runtime has major problems dealing with large > chunks of memory. > > Running a big simulation on MacOS 68K is a chore. I'm actually very curious to hear details about that, if you have the time. What kind of issues? - Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 21:32:08 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:32:08 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <022D599F-0CE1-46A6-8774-5AE472E6DC91@me.com> References: <022D599F-0CE1-46A6-8774-5AE472E6DC91@me.com> Message-ID: > Serial or twinax? Hell, I like them both. It is some other people that we need convert so they see the light of twinax/bisync terminals. You know who you are. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 10 21:51:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:51:20 -0700 Subject: Mac 68k memory management In-Reply-To: References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> <20120810143433.H56329@shell.lmi.net> <4F8A93E5-041B-4858-B55E-EA26F03C3724@me.com> <5025AE12.3020707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5025C8A8.5030608@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/12 7:27 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 10, 2012, at 20:57, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 8/10/12 5:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> Hercules should work: >>> >>> http://www.hercules-390.org/ >> >>>> Is there a 360/70 simulator that will run on 68K Macs? >> >> >> Doubtful. We fixed a lot of problems with memory management when Apple >> went to PowerPC. The 68K runtime has major problems dealing with large >> chunks of memory. >> >> Running a big simulation on MacOS 68K is a chore. > > I'm actually very curious to hear details about that, if you have the time. What kind of issues? > The memory manager was designed in the days of the 128k Mac. It is really awkward to deal with anything larger than 64k. This is a big problem for large programs. Code segments can't be bigger than 64k. Back porting large programs is very, very difficult. It is a shame that they essentially took a non-segmented CPU, and made it segmented. That all got fixed with the native PPC runtime and it made life much easier. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 22:14:33 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:14:33 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Of the topic a it as it is preserving hardware, noise components. They have > the most value in the market, but I get way more of a thrill from seeing the > latest thing Al got on bitsavers than the hardware, or even better help him > get something there. I have to say I am starting to feel this way as well. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 10 22:25:47 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:25:47 -0600 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: In article <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM>, "Andrew Lynch" writes: > The plan is to run Linux or NetBSD on the S-100 80386 CPU board which would > also be running the X window server. [...] OK, linux or bsd should be easy to get the server running. The book I mentioned explains how to start with getting things running by handling the necessary parts of every server (input devices, initialization, etc.) and start with simple getpixel/putpixel support. >From there you can layer everything else on top of that. All additional work after that is simply "tuning" to make things go faster. It will help if you have significant amounts of off-screen pixmap memory from which you can blt to the screen. In particular, xterm will be very slow without this. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 10 22:31:39 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 20:31:39 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5025D21B.9040702@bitsavers.org> On 8/10/12 8:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Of the topic a it as it is preserving hardware, noise components. They have >> the most value in the market, but I get way more of a thrill from seeing the >> latest thing Al got on bitsavers than the hardware, or even better help him >> get something there. > > I have to say I am starting to feel this way as well. > I decided over ten years ago that my time is better spent working on things that can be shared. During that time I've slowly been getting rid of my hardware collection. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Aug 10 22:33:27 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:33:27 -0400 Subject: Mac 68k memory management In-Reply-To: References: <42626FBA-F294-41B0-8A2A-414CAA5F2082@me.com> <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> <201208100751.DAA07533@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50253112.2010106@jetnet.ab.ca> <98AFD893-E782-4AD7-9824-F40F3BDC0CF3@cs.ubc.ca> <20120810143433.H56329@shell.lmi.net> <4F8A93E5-041B-4858-B55E-EA26F03C3724@me.com> <5025AE12.3020707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5025D287.8020703@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/08/12 10:27 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 10, 2012, at 20:57, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 8/10/12 5:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> Hercules should work: >>> >>> http://www.hercules-390.org/ >> >>>> Is there a 360/70 simulator that will run on 68K Macs? >> >> >> Doubtful. We fixed a lot of problems with memory management when Apple >> went to PowerPC. The 68K runtime has major problems dealing with large >> chunks of memory. >> >> Running a big simulation on MacOS 68K is a chore. > > I'm actually very curious to hear details about that, if you have the time. What kind of issues? If I recall correctly you run into linkage issues with size of global data, and sizes of offsets, and this sort of thing. It was really geared towards 16-bit sized things; the 32-bit-everything model arrived quite late and wasn't a panacea. Even the Apple compilers weren't great at building large software. --Toby > > > - Dave > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 10 22:44:20 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 21:44:20 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <022D599F-0CE1-46A6-8774-5AE472E6DC91@me.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > It is some other people that we need convert so they see the light of > twinax/bisync terminals. > > You know who you are. I have *one*. That is enough to make me want to sell it :-). Actually I have been learning more about HDLC, X.25, 3270 chitchat, etc., in order to try and get these Westinghouse airline terminals to talk. However, as we discussed during your last visit when we were at the Hole, I need to focus on graphics and not become exclusively a terminal museum. Get some twinax/bisync *graphics* terminals my way and I'll get a lot more interested. However, I just haven't found them. >From , it looks like the following are interesting models: - IBM 2250 (vector display) - IBM 3179 Display station (color or graphics) for IBM 3270 - IBM 3192G Terminal. 24 or 32 lines. Graphics. - IBM 3194 Advanced function colour display - IBM 3279 Color graphic terminal; 1979 - IBM 6153 Advanced monochrome graphics display - IBM 6154 Advanced color graphics display - IBM 6155 Extended monochrome graphics display - IBM 6180 Color plotter - IBM 6186 Color plotter - IBM 7372 Color plotter, 6 pen, desktop - IBM 7374 Color plotter - IBM 7375 Color plotter - IBM 7350 Image processor, a specialized terminal for scientific and research applications; 1983 - IBM 7404 Graphic Output - IBM XY749 Plotter - IBM XY750 Plotter The list is pretty sketchy and doesn't give details, or date of introduction, for most of these things. But judging from what's there, a number of models look like they could be interesting. I know IBM had a role in the history of graphics, but really IBM is such a world unto itself that it's going to take some considerable study on my part in order to understand the story, much less tell it to anyone else accurately. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 23:02:48 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 00:02:48 -0400 Subject: IBM terminals (shame on Richard) Message-ID: > Actually I have been learning more about HDLC, X.25, 3270 chitchat, > etc., in order to try and get these Westinghouse airline terminals to > talk. You will probably need a fair amount of beer, too. > However, as we discussed during your last visit when we were at the > Hole, I need to focus on graphics and not become exclusively a > terminal museum. Get some twinax/bisync *graphics* terminals my way > and I'll get a lot more interested. However, I just haven't found > them. The 5080 family of terminals is probably up your alley. But, they seem to be rare. I used one many years ago, at an open house at EMD. Fun stuff. And then their is the 7361 FastDraft system - it is an IBM S/1 controlling some sort of third party graphics engine. RCS has one, and we can not figure the thing out. If you watch a bad Cameron Diaz movie from a few years back, you can see it on the big screen (stuffed and mounted, anyway. No, not Ms. Diaz.). -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 11 00:06:08 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 01:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <201208110506.BAA19947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > As distributed, the X server assumes things like a unix process > model, bsd sockets, virtual memory, etc. Yes...but - at least before XFree86 mucked it all up and the MIT X becaome Xorg and drank the XFree86 koolaid; I don't know about after that - the sample server (there is no "the X server", possibly unless your whole world is peecees running recent Linux or some such) had pretty good separation between the X server proper and the glue layer between it and the OS. If you have a moderate amount of RAM available (virtual or not) and are willing to do a little glue layer hackery, it's not that difficult to rip off the unixy interfaces and stick on whatever you've got. Unless what you've got is too restrictive to support what the server wants to do (for example, if you have something socket-like but nothing like select()/poll(), it will, um, be more difficult). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 11 00:22:27 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 00:22:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs (was: Re: DEC Server 300) In-Reply-To: <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than never.] On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Now I have to fiddele with some modular Plugs, don't have any MMJ cables.. >> >> Most of the modular plug crim tools wil lcrimp MMJs too (the cheap-ish >> one I have certainly will), so you could make your own cables. When I >> needed to connect to a DEC MMJ serial port and didn't have the plug or >> tool, I soldered the wires to the pins of the socket on the solder side >> of the PCB. But that was just one port... > > I've found out, that my crimp tool seems to support them too, but I don't > have the plugs. > I used an 6 pin normal modular plug and removed a half of the lever clip > with a saw..it fits in, but it doesn't click.... The trick of cutting the tab off at an angle and gluing it back on that people have used for the LEGO Mindstorms NXT connector can also be used for MMJ connectors. [Note however that the retention tab is on the opposite side for MMJ connectors compared to NXT connectors.] http://www.philohome.com/nxtplug/nxtplug.htm Another thing to keep in mind is that there are a number of different types of MMJ plugs. There are two different types when it comes to crimp dies, Stewart Stamping (sometimes marked 'SS' for the genuine Stewart plugs) and AMP. Attempting to crimp one type with the other dieset type -will- damage the plug and very likely also damage the dieset. Tyco Electronics (AMP) discontinued their MMJ plugs a number of years ago. They did this after buying AMP when they implemented their Six Sigma and Lean Process garbage. Stewart Connector (Belfuse) on the other hand still manufactures 6P6C offset tab MMJ compatible plugs. Stewart's part numbers are: 937-SP-3066-OST 6P6C flat oval offset, stranded conductors only, 0.37" (0.94mm) OD http://belfuse.com/pdfs/CT300047.pdf http://belfuse.com/stock-check.php?num=937-SP-3066-OST 937-SP-3066R-OST 6P6C round offset, stranded conductors only, 0.37" (0.94mm) OD http://belfuse.com/pdfs/CT300101.pdf http://belfuse.com/stock-check.php?num=937-SP-3066R-OST 940-SP-3066-OST 6P6C flat oval offset, solid or stranded conductors, 0.37" (0.94mm) OD http://belfuse.com/pdfs/CT300102.pdf http://belfuse.com/stock-check.php?num=940-SP-3066-OST Most people are going to want the 937-SP-3066-OST or 940-SP-3066-OST plugs for making standard 6-conductor flat cables. Those using solid wire in unusual applications will certainly want the 940-SP-3066-OST plugs. In a pinch, the 937-SP-3066R-OST plugs could probably be used with flat cord, but I'm not sure if the strain relief would hold properly. Tyco/AMP also had different plugs for different types of cable. >From the AMP 1307282 2-99 catalog: 6-Position Flat Oval Solid Offset 555236-1 strip 5-555236-1 1,000/box 5-555236-2 100/box 5-555236-3 25/bag 6-Position Flat Oval Stranded Offset 555237-1 strip 5-555237-1 1,000/box 5-555237-2 100/box 5-555237-3 25/bag 6-Position Round Stranded Offset 555238-1 strip 5-555238-2 100/box 5-555238-3 25/bag 6-Position Wide Flat Oval Stranded Offset 557345-1 strip 5-557345-1 1,000/box 5-557345-2 100/box 5-557345-3 25/bag I lucked out when I heard Tyco/AMP was discontinuing their MMJ plugs and I was able to buy some remaining inventory of the 555237 plugs in two 1,000 count boxes and some loose bags. I currently have about 1,700+ still on hand, as well as a small handful of the 555236 plugs for solid conductor wire. Unfortunately, when they are gone, they are gone, and all of my [expensive] AMP tooling for these plugs will become basically worthless. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 11 00:41:41 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 00:41:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ebay: Apollo 68030 motherboard? In-Reply-To: References: <1343357386.87821.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jul 2012, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > I grabbed this one. Expect to see ROM dumps and hi-res scans of the > board at some point :) I hope the Apollo board came packaged better than the monochrome video card I bought from the same guy. The MDA card came wrapped in a white plastic garbage bag. It also appears to have been abused and has lots of bent/shorted IC pins on the solder side of the board. Kinda makes me glad I didn't get the Hercules MDA card he had too now that I've seen what this board looks like. On the upside, I also snagged the IBM keyboard cable he had listed, which was perfect for my spare cable-less Model M that I've had sitting for over a decade. After a good cleaning the cable doesn't look half bad. It has a few ink stains, but I've seen far worse, and the SDL plug latches are intact, so it should work just fine. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 11 01:10:32 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 08:10:32 +0200 Subject: recreation of a nearly 30 year old environment..... In-Reply-To: References: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <146b8b7bca9e519d2a011973c3b03191.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> The software was on the disk that came with the machine I got from Oracle when it was no longer needed. We used that machine to support the few European users who used V2.3 back then (early '80's), and when version 3 came out, they all did switch to the Vax and the support machine became obsolete. After a year in the basement, it was given to me. Ed > Nice. Where did you get the old Oracle Version? > > Regards, > W. > > 2012/8/10 Richard > >> >> What environment is it recreating? >> >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < >> http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> >> The Computer Graphics Museum >> The Terminals Wiki >> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) >> > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 11 01:16:56 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 08:16:56 +0200 Subject: recreation of a nearly 30 year old environment..... In-Reply-To: References: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Forgot to add, the system disk got somewhat damaged (logically) so I had the recreate runtime. fortunately, the directory which contained the Oracle programs were unaffected. We had 2 RL02 system disks, one had rsx11m V4.0, the other was rsx11m-plus, although I'm not sure anymore if it was V2.1 or V3.0. Ed > Nice. Where did you get the old Oracle Version? > > Regards, > W. > > 2012/8/10 Richard > >> >> What environment is it recreating? >> >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < >> http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> >> The Computer Graphics Museum >> The Terminals Wiki >> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) >> > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 01:39:42 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:39:42 -0700 Subject: Apollo DN590 workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I have an Apollo 580 in the back of my container. i think it is a >> 580T. Last running about 15 years ago. > > I didn't see a 580T listed here: > References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <20120811094158.28de4744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:56:13 -0400 "Andrew Lynch" wrote: > The plan is to run Linux or NetBSD on the S-100 80386 CPU board which > would also be running the X window server. If you go NetBSD: There are the wsfb(4) X-Server and the wsdisplay(4) / fbdev(4) frame buffer driver. I.e. if you write a kernel level framebuffer driver for your hardware, the X-Server will work out of the box. Unaccelerated of course. A wsdisplay(4) / fbdev(4) driver should be relatively simple. It will also solve the problem of text mode IO on a non-VGA console. So you are completely free to implement what ever graphics / framebuffer hardware you want. There is no need for a VGA compatible register set. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Aug 11 03:12:16 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 10:12:16 +0200 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <502613E0.7040900@e-bbes.com> On 2012-08-10 14:58, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Does anyone know of an X Window server implementation for the NEC 7220 GDC? > The chip has several names including the Intel 82720, NEC 7220A, NEC 7220D, > uPD7220, uPD72020, etc. Essentially this graphics chip was the main rival > to the MC6845 prior to the domination of the IBM PC architecture for > microcomputers. (I read some of the replies ...) So, you're not looking for the graphing capabilities of the 7220, you are looking for a dumb frame buffer. And if you cut it down to it, just use a mc6845 to do it (if you insist on old technology) or go back to the FPGA idea, which would be my first choice for a frame buffer on any bus. I had a 7220 on the mc68000 back then (actually one 7220 for every color bit) and the interface to the frame buffer was dog slow. BTW, wasn't the 7220 also in the rainbows? There should be a lot of documentation for it there ... Cheers From md.benson at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 03:30:47 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:30:47 +0100 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs (was: Re: DEC Server 300) In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> On 11 Aug 2012, at 06:22, Tothwolf wrote: > [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than never.] Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy the 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or expensive. I've got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of white flat 6-core cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think the MMJ plugs were about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 03:32:39 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:32:39 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502599D2.4010205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20120810151533.W56329@shell.lmi.net> <502599D2.4010205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <502618A7.2000507@gmail.com> On 11/08/2012 00:31, ben wrote: > On 8/10/2012 4:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> It has been suggested that the fact that if you are 'killed' in a video >>> game you can restart and have another go has led certain classes ot >>> people to not treat human life as seriously as they should. You can't >>> 'reboot' if you've just been shot by a real gun. >> >> The obvious solution is to simply improve the simulations to give >> them the >> capability of killing the user. >> > You mean like in this novel. > http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Sword_Art_Online > Ben. > For a real mixed up story see if you can get a copy of "Snow White and the Seven Samurai" http://www.tom-holt.com/snowwhite.htm -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 05:00:23 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 11:00:23 +0100 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> On 11/08/2012 09:30, Mark Benson wrote: > On 11 Aug 2012, at 06:22, Tothwolf wrote: > >> [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than never.] > Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy the 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or expensive. I've got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of white flat 6-core cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think the MMJ plugs were about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. > > I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) > Could you make me up a lead for my VaxStation 3100? The plugs are cheap enough but a crip tool to match looks harder/more expensive... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 05:06:18 2012 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 12:06:18 +0200 Subject: Apollo DN590 workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2012/8/11 Paxton Hoag > >> I have an Apollo 580 in the back of my container. i think it is a > >> 580T. Last running about 15 years ago. > > > *drools* -- Ola Hughson From md.benson at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 06:04:38 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 12:04:38 +0100 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 Aug 2012, at 11:00, Dave Wade wrote: > On 11/08/2012 09:30, Mark Benson wrote: >> On 11 Aug 2012, at 06:22, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than never.] >> Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy the 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or expensive. I've got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of white flat 6-core cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think the MMJ plugs were about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. >> >> I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) >> > Could you make me up a lead for my VaxStation 3100? If you let me know what you need on each end and how long, sure. > The plugs are cheap enough but a crip tool to match looks harder/more expensive... http://www.cablegear.co.uk/modular-crimping-tool-for-modular-plugs.html These are what I have, work like a charm and cheap enough without being rubbish quality. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From chrise at pobox.com Sat Aug 11 07:03:04 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 07:03:04 -0500 Subject: Domain OS (was: NeWS) In-Reply-To: <50245A5D.5070603@update.uu.se> References: <50245A5D.5070603@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20120811120304.GH22505@n0jcf.net> On Friday (08/10/2012 at 02:48AM +0200), Johnny Billquist wrote: > > There were some cool concepts in Domain/OS, but for the most part, > it was just weird and horrible. And at ETA Systems here in St. Paul, from about 1983 to 1989, we had the largest Domain "ring" Apollo had ever built. We pushed the total node count to something like 4x or 6x what they had ever anticipated. We had to devise little "transfer switches" that could isolate the network, keeping smaller rings running when the big ring was foobar'd. I think we ended up selling those transfer switches back to Apollo :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 08:45:03 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:45:03 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <00d901cd77c7$91767830$b4636890$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:26 PM > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > > In article <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM>, > "Andrew Lynch" writes: > > > The plan is to run Linux or NetBSD on the S-100 80386 CPU board which > > would also be running the X window server. [...] > > OK, linux or bsd should be easy to get the server running. The book I > mentioned explains how to start with getting things running by handling the > necessary parts of every server (input devices, initialization, etc.) and start > with simple getpixel/putpixel support. > From there you can layer everything else on top of that. All additional work > after that is simply "tuning" to make things go faster. > > It will help if you have significant amounts of off-screen pixmap memory from > which you can blt to the screen. In particular, xterm will be very slow without > this. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) Hi I've ordered the book you recommended from Amazon. Yes, that's the plan. Start with NetBSD in console only mode. Build up some graphics primitives using the NEC 7220 and once there are enough start building the X server. That's good news that we can start with just those X primitives since certainly those can be written for the GDC. Performance is a secondary issue at this point. I recognize using a NEC 7220 in bitmap mode is not its strong suite. My hope is that some of the NEC 7220 graphics primitives can be used later to speed things along. It will never be fast though. However until the situation with the VGA chipset improves we are running out of options and need a buildable S-100 board that can display a bitmap. The initial prototype S-100 80386 CPU board is limited to the memory on the bus (16MB max). However this prototype is only intended to get the CPU core internals working. The real system memory will be on the RAM expander. It will have to be some sort of unique memory local bus since S-100 simply is not able to provide enough RAM to make this feasible. Hopefully once the RAM board is installed the X server performance will improve by doing some of the operations off screen. Thank you very much for your help. I appreciate it! Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 08:45:03 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:45:03 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <20120811094158.28de4744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM> <20120811094158.28de4744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <00d801cd77c7$910b5a50$b3220ef0$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Jochen Kunz > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:42 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:56:13 -0400 > "Andrew Lynch" wrote: > > > The plan is to run Linux or NetBSD on the S-100 80386 CPU board which > > would also be running the X window server. > If you go NetBSD: There are the wsfb(4) X-Server and the wsdisplay(4) / > fbdev(4) frame buffer driver. I.e. if you write a kernel level framebuffer driver > for your hardware, the X-Server will work out of the box. Unaccelerated of > course. A wsdisplay(4) / fbdev(4) driver should be relatively simple. It will also > solve the problem of text mode IO on a non-VGA console. So you are > completely free to implement what ever graphics / framebuffer hardware you > want. There is no need for a VGA compatible register set. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} Hi Thank you. That's very good news since if we can keep the changes isolated to a kernel module maybe with some luck we can minimize the changes to the rest of the NetBSD system. No changes at all would be ideal but is probably not realistic. The S-100 80386 CPU board itself and the associated IO hardware will likely require some of its own modules and changes. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From prd at decarchive.org Sat Aug 11 08:58:02 2012 From: prd at decarchive.org (Peter Dreisiger) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 21:58:02 +0800 Subject: Bits and Bytes (a classic computer show from 1983) now on YouTube Message-ID: <439A61A2-3D0B-40BB-BE31-286F0829E93D@decarchive.org> Hello all, I'm afraid I'm more of a long-time appreciator than a regular poster here, but I wanted to share a link to an archive of episodes and clips from the TVOntario show, 'Bits and Bytes' ? partly because there probably are a few people who saw this show when it originally aired and might enjoy a trip down memory lane, partly because it features many of the microcomputers that were popular in North America back then, and partly because its explanation of many of the key concepts are still relevant today. (Plus, for those who haven't seen it, it's also quite entertaining.) The channel is over at http://www.youtube.com/user/bitsandbytestvo, and I've included a modified blurb from that page below for people's information. Hope this brings back a few memories, and even educates a few of the people who are too young to have caught it first time 'round. This is the show that got me into computing and programming (my first computer was the Commodore 64), and I know that the episode on computer music, and the clip about compilers and interpreters have both been used to explain concepts in current computer science and computer music classes (as in, since the show became available again on YouTube). Cheers and (hopefully) enjoy! Peter P.S. And for those who are concerned about such things, from what I've been able to ascertain, this show is no longer available for purchase from TVO and, for that matter, they no longer have the full set of episodes in their own archives. ----- Bits and Bytes is a classic, and still foundational, Canadian television series about microcomputers and the key concepts behind them. It was produced by TVOntario in 1983, and stars Luba Goy as the instructor, and Billy Van as the student. The show consisted of 12 episodes and featured many of the classic 80s microcomputers including the Apple ][, Commodore PET, VIC 20 and 64, Atari 800, TRS-80, TI 99 and the IBM PC. The subjects were: Program 1: Getting Started Program 2: Ready-Made Programs Program 3: How Programs Work? Program 4: File & Data Management Program 5: Communication Between Computers Program 6: Computer Languages Program 7: Computer-Assisted Instruction Program 8: Games & Simulations Program 9: Computer Graphics Program 10: Computer Music Program 11: Computers at Work Program 12: What Next? From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Aug 11 09:03:14 2012 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 10:03:14 -0400 Subject: simple pcb for QBUS backplane POR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50266622.4090608@heeltoe.com> I have a handful of small naked QBUS backplanes and recently I started populating them. I quickly discovered that they have some signal requirements above and beyond +5V/+12V, namely POK, DCOK and line clock. So I created a simple PIC based PCB which provides DCOK, HALT and the 60Hz line clock. I was inspired by some PIC source code I found by John Wilson which generates the line clock. My version generates the clock differently and includes DCOK and HALT with push buttons. I must admit I had fun writing the software and debugging it. http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Pcbs.Qbus-por I made four of these, and I need all four, but if people are interested I can make up a batch of 10 or so. Perhaps I am the only one who wants to run naked QBUS backplanes with modern power supplies, but if not let me know. I would think that they would end up costing $15-20 if I make 10x. -brad From prd at decarchive.org Sat Aug 11 09:13:24 2012 From: prd at decarchive.org (Peter Dreisiger) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 22:13:24 +0800 Subject: Bits and Bytes (a classic computer show from 1983) now on YouTube In-Reply-To: <439A61A2-3D0B-40BB-BE31-286F0829E93D@decarchive.org> References: <439A61A2-3D0B-40BB-BE31-286F0829E93D@decarchive.org> Message-ID: On 11/08/2012, at 9:58 PM, Peter Dreisiger wrote: > The channel is over at http://www.youtube.com/user/bitsandbytestvo, and I've ... And the URL should have, of course, been http://www.youtube.com/user/bitsandbytestvo (apologies for that, I didn't realise the trailing comma would be included as part of the link). From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 11 10:36:30 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:36:30 -0600 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <502613E0.7040900@e-bbes.com> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <502613E0.7040900@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: In article <502613E0.7040900 at e-bbes.com>, emanuel stiebler writes: > BTW, wasn't the 7220 also in the rainbows? There should be a lot of > documentation for it there ... Wikipedia says it was used in the Rainbow 100. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 11 10:41:51 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:41:51 -0600 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <00d901cd77c7$91767830$b4636890$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <50254090.6080509@bitsavers.org> <000a01cd7721$2d907380$88b15a80$@YAHOO.COM> <50255FDB.8080900@bitsavers.org> <002101cd7734$1216c7e0$364457a0$@YAHOO.COM> <001e01cd7753$c746f6c0$55d4e440$@YAHOO.COM> <00d901cd77c7$91767830$b4636890$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: In article <00d901cd77c7$91767830$b4636890$@YAHOO.COM>, "Andrew Lynch" writes: > Performance is a secondary issue at this point. I recognize using a NEC > 7220 in bitmap mode is not its strong suite. My hope is that some of the > NEC 7220 graphics primitives can be used later to speed things along. You'll be OK with so-called "zero width" lines and arcs, where the device is allowed to be loose with the rasterization rules, but once you go to specific widths, unless the 7220 adheres to the X protocol rasterization rules, you won't be able to use the 7220's builtin primitives. This was a common problem with matching hardware acceleration to an X server -- there were often problems with matching the rasterization rules specified in the X protocol. Wide line primitives, line join and end cap styles and every pixel touched only once were common problems. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 11 10:45:07 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:45:07 -0600 Subject: Apollo DN590 workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > >> I have an Apollo 580 in the back of my container. i think it is a > >> 580T. Last running about 15 years ago. > > > > I didn't see a 580T listed here: > > > There is both the DN580T mentioned and the DN570T mentioned. They have > 2D 8 bit accelerated graphics not what you are looking for. Oh, duh. They list the 590T first, then the 580T and 570T. I simply assumed they would list in ascending order :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 11 12:38:31 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 12:38:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs (was: Re: DEC Server 300) In-Reply-To: <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Mark Benson wrote: > On 11 Aug 2012, at 06:22, Tothwolf wrote: > >> [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than never.] > > Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy > the 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or > expensive. I've got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of > white flat 6-core cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think > the MMJ plugs were about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. > > I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I > guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) I guess it depends on what side of the pond you are on? There is one US eBay seller listing them for $16.45 for two (2) plugs, and another listing qty 25 for 19.98. Neither discloses the source/manufacturer of his plugs though. What I always wonder about is the quality of the plugs. Are yours marked as to the manufacturer? IMO the best MMJ plugs ever made were the ones from Amphenol (the locking tab holds up better), but AMP and Stewart are a close second. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 11 12:45:52 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 12:45:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Dave Wade wrote: > On 11/08/2012 09:30, Mark Benson wrote: >> On 11 Aug 2012, at 06:22, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than >>> never.] >> Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy the >> 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or expensive. I've >> got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of white flat 6-core >> cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think the MMJ plugs were >> about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. >> >> I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I >> guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) > > Could you make me up a lead for my VaxStation 3100? The plugs are cheap > enough but a crip tool to match looks harder/more expensive... There is a really, really nice crimp tool on eBay right now with a number of extra diesets. I'll send you the link since it might be something you could use. I don't want to post the link on-list though because then people might very likely fight over it. If I didn't already own several of them I'd be tempted to nab it myself just for the extra diesets. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 11 13:08:22 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 12:08:22 -0600 Subject: Apollo DN590 workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > >> I have an Apollo 580 in the back of my container. i think it is a > >> 580T. Last running about 15 years ago. > > > I didn't see a 580T listed here: > > > > There is both the DN580T mentioned and the DN570T mentioned. They have > 2D 8 bit accelerated graphics not what you are looking for. OK, looking deeper the 580T *can* have 3D graphics acceleration, from the above price list: DN580T WORKSTATIONS Each DN580T-3DW Workstation includes the following: - 68020 Processor with 68881 Floating Point Coprocessor - 8MB Main Memory - 2 Asynchronous RS232-C Ports - 19" Color Monitor with display resolution of 1 280 x 1024 - 8 Plane Dedicated Display Memory - 3D Graphics Accelerator (3DGA TM) - Floating Point Accelerator (FPX TM) - 3DGMR TM Graphics Software License (Maintenance charges are not included in the package MMC) - High Performance Dedicated Drawing Processor - Country Kit (Must be ordered separately, see prerequisites) - Operating system license (including all environments - System V, BSD, and Aegis) - Documentation: Unpacking and Installation, Operation, Site Preparation and Planning Guide I/O Device Installation, Technical Publications Overview Each DN580T-2D Workstation includes the following: - 68020 Processor with 68881 Floating Point Coprocessor - 8MB Main Memory - 2 Asynchronous RS232-C Ports - 19" Color Monitor with display resolution of 1280 x 1024 - 8 Plane Dedicated Display Memory - GSR Graphics Software License (GSR Maintenance charges are not included in the package MMC) - High Performance Dedicated Drawing Processor - Country Kit (Must be ordered separately, see prerequisites) - Operating system license (including all environments - System V, BSD, and Aegis) - Documentation: Unpacking and Installation, Operation, Site Preparation and Planning Guide, I/O Device Installation, Technical Publications Overview I guess you're saying you have the DN580T-2D model? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 11 13:10:13 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 13:10:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Mark Benson wrote: > On 11 Aug 2012, at 11:00, Dave Wade wrote: > >> The plugs are cheap enough but a crip tool to match looks harder/more expensive... > > http://www.cablegear.co.uk/modular-crimping-tool-for-modular-plugs.html > > These are what I have, work like a charm and cheap enough without being rubbish quality. That tool looks very much like a clone of the all-in-one Paladin modular plug crimpers. Which die form does it use? AMP/Tyco or WE/SS (Western Electric / Stewart Stamping)? Paladin makes their all-in-one tools in both varieties... 1530R All-in-One Pro Telephone Tool (WE/SS) http://www.paladin-tools.com/view_tool.php?id=545&parent_id=77 1540 All-in-One Pro Telephone Tool (AMP-style) http://www.paladin-tools.com/view_tool.php?id=548&parent_id=77 901016 All-in-One Ultra Telephone Tool (WE/SS) [aluminum head] http://www.paladin-tools.com/view_tool.php?id=61&parent_id=77 901014 All-in-One Ultra Telephone Tool AMP (Tyco) [aluminum head] http://www.paladin-tools.com/view_tool.php?id=60&parent_id=77 I'm pretty sure that those Paladin crimpers are made by Weidmuller though (Paladin's wire ferrule crimpers are). 9008120000 http://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Product.jsp?productId=%28[9008120000]%29&page=Product 9008190000 http://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Product.jsp?productId=%28[9008190000]%29&page=Product [This one does 10P10C plugs instead of 8P8C.] From rrr_lopes at yahoo.com.br Sat Aug 11 13:20:17 2012 From: rrr_lopes at yahoo.com.br (ricardo lopes) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 11:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic HHC technical information Message-ID: <1344709217.68944.YahooMailNeo@web140402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hello, I'm trying to understand the intriguing Panasonic HHC. Does somebody have additional technical information beside the contents of the User's Manual? I'm particularlly searching for the SnapFORTH ROM image and manual, any hardware schematics, and the expansion connector pinout. I'm also trying to understand the Cassette Tape audio file format. Any information on that will be nice too. Ricardo P.S. Sorry about my limited English vocabulary and eventual (unnoticed) lack of politeness. I'm from Brazil and not English native. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 11 14:58:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:58:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "Dave" at Aug 10, 12 10:42:34 pm Message-ID: > > Why not? Is it impossible to write find the OS anywhere else? > > Or to writ > > at least soemthign that talks to the termianl ports? > > > > Several reasons think:- > > 1. Lack of documentation Without knowign what he machien is, I have no idea how hard it would be to track down (techncial) docuemntation. But I would guess that given enough time it would eb possible to reverse-engieer it and deduce the instruciton set ('mini' to me implies soemthing where the CPU si built from MSI/SSI chips, so it is possible to understand it). > 2. Money Unless you are peaying for the volunteer's time, there should be little money invovled. I woudl argue that taking on such a project would eb very dducational, and that a numebr of people would jump at the chance. > 3. The "Museum" things we have already mentioned. Any museum policy ytat ptrevents an otherwiese worthelss machine from being got to run again is fundamentally broken IMHO. > > A vvery clean ASR33 is not good. It may eman it's never seen > > the business > > end of an oil can... > > > > They have oil in the proper places.... Don't bet on it!. I would seriously go through the manual and be sure before powering up the amchine, even for a few minutes. > > > > simulation (Raspberry PI based perhaps) to give folks the > > experience > > > of > > > using a TTY with auithentic old software? > > > > Wait a second... If you have the 'authentic old software', > > why can it not > > be run on the mini? > > > > Not sure if we have that for that particular mini. There is one disk > pack.... Ah... So what you are really saying is tht uou could run the ASR33 as a terminal on some other machine. Sure. But why make it something mofern? Why not a PDP11 or PDP8 of some flavour? Or even just link 2 ASR33's mback to back with a suitable PSU for the current loops and demonstrate them as a communications device. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 11 15:04:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 21:04:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <022D599F-0CE1-46A6-8774-5AE472E6DC91@me.com> from "Paul Anderson" at Aug 10, 12 09:40:54 pm Message-ID: > [Terminals] > Serial or twinax? Isn't twinax a subset of serial? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 11 15:17:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 21:17:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am Message-ID: > > > In article <502613E0.7040900 at e-bbes.com>, > emanuel stiebler writes: > > > BTW, wasn't the 7220 also in the rainbows? There should be a lot of > > documentation for it there ... > > Wikipedia says it was used in the Rainbow 100. It was. Or to be more preciese, it was used in the colour/graphics add-on board for the 'bow. The 7220 was also used in the VT240 terminal IIRC (which has a graphics system very like that of the 'bow colour card). And in the HH Tiger. But I susepct findign docuemtnation on those is a lot harder. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 11 15:20:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 21:20:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Panasonic HHC technical information In-Reply-To: <1344709217.68944.YahooMailNeo@web140402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "ricardo lopes" at Aug 11, 12 11:20:17 am Message-ID: > > Hello,=0A= > =0A= > I'm trying to understand the intriguing Panasonic HHC.=0A= > Does somebody have additional technical information beside the contents of = > the User's Manual?=0A= > I'm particularlly searching for the SnapFORTH ROM image and manual, any har= > dware schematics, and the expansion connector pinout.=0A= I haev my own had-drawn schematics for the machine and the printer/cassette interface. Of course they don't give any information for the interals of the ASICs, but they might be a start. I can't remember if I have already sent them to somebody (Eric?) who might have scanned them. If not, I can make a photocopy and post them out. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 11 15:53:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:53:46 -0600 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 Message-ID: Does anyone have one of these boards? They are derived from research at UNC on Pixel Planes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 16:20:38 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 22:20:38 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5026CCA6.6040801@gmail.com> On 11/08/2012 20:58, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Why not? Is it impossible to write find the OS anywhere else? >>> Or to writ >>> at least soemthign that talks to the termianl ports? >>> >> Several reasons think:- >> >> 1. Lack of documentation > Without knowign what he machien is, I have no idea how hard it would be > to track down (techncial) docuemntation. But I would guess that given > enough time it would eb possible to reverse-engieer it and deduce the > instruciton set ('mini' to me implies soemthing where the CPU si built > from MSI/SSI chips, so it is possible to understand it). > >> 2. Money > Unless you are peaying for the volunteer's time, there should be little > money invovled. I woudl argue that taking on such a project would eb very > dducational, and that a numebr of people would jump at the chance. > > >> 3. The "Museum" things we have already mentioned. > Any museum policy ytat ptrevents an otherwiese worthelss machine from > being got to run again is fundamentally broken IMHO. > > >>> A vvery clean ASR33 is not good. It may eman it's never seen >>> the business >>> end of an oil can... >>> >> They have oil in the proper places.... > Don't bet on it!. I would seriously go through the manual and be sure > before powering up the amchine, even for a few minutes. > >>>> simulation (Raspberry PI based perhaps) to give folks the >>> experience >>>> of >>>> using a TTY with auithentic old software? >>> Wait a second... If you have the 'authentic old software', >>> why can it not >>> be run on the mini? >>> >> Not sure if we have that for that particular mini. There is one disk >> pack.... > Ah... So what you are really saying is tht uou could run the ASR33 as a > terminal on some other machine. Sure. But why make it something mofern? > Why not a PDP11 or PDP8 of some flavour? My personal opinion is that something local and unusual would be nice. As we are in Manchester, for a long time one of the spiritual homes of ICL, and as there appear to be no ICL1900's left running anywhere, i would haev thought that Dave Holdsworth's ICL1900 emulator with George would be a most appropriate machine... It used to live at www.icl1900.co.uk but that appears to be down... > Or even just link 2 ASR33's mback to back with a suitable PSU for the > current loops and demonstrate them as a communications device. > > -tony -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 16:29:13 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 22:29:13 +0100 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5026CEA9.1020502@gmail.com> On 11/08/2012 12:04, Mark Benson wrote: > On 11 Aug 2012, at 11:00, Dave Wade wrote: > >> On 11/08/2012 09:30, Mark Benson wrote: >>> On 11 Aug 2012, at 06:22, Tothwolf wrote: >>> >>>> [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than never.] >>> Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy the 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or expensive. I've got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of white flat 6-core cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think the MMJ plugs were about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. >>> >>> I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) >>> >> Could you make me up a lead for my VaxStation 3100? > If you let me know what you need on each end and how long, sure. Well I guess a couple of meters should be enough. A 9-pin female wired to fit a PC port would be nice on the other end the so I can use PUTTY et al as a terminal to get the thing running as I don't have a keyboard, mouse or display. How much would you want for this? Do you take Pay Pal? Thanks in advance Dave > >> The plugs are cheap enough but a crip tool to match looks harder/more expensive... > http://www.cablegear.co.uk/modular-crimping-tool-for-modular-plugs.html > > These are what I have, work like a charm and cheap enough without being rubbish quality. > > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Aug 11 16:43:16 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 23:43:16 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <960BBFC1C3A741B79A38EA9C23A845CC@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <20120811214316.GA2406@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Aug 09, 2012 at 10:25:41PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Artifact degradation is all about pissed off people in the future, > > > > because you used the things to death. > > > > > ... But not running them is all about pissed-off people now. > > > > > Generally you will be left with the carcass of the machine, which is all you > > have if you don't use the machine. In many cases the use of the machine > > means that it will be better preserved as the mechanical parts will be oiled > > and lubricated... > > I think you have to consider wht damage could be done. And that depeneds > -- a lot -- on the artefact. A vitage aeroplane is likely to be totally > destroyed if it crashes, so you probably don't want to fly it very often. The local flying club begs to differ: http://airforcecenter.ch/index.php?id=25&L=1 IIRC there are 8 airworthy Junkers Ju-52 still around. The Airforce Center D?bendorf (near Z?rich) has 6 of them and they are actively flying them quite a bit. There regular tourist tours around Switzerland and you can even charter them, e.g. for an event. In fact, they are currently doing something very special: they flew one of their Ju-52 all the way from Switzerland to the US, to show up in the Oshkosh airshow. Under it's own power, mind you: http://www.rimowa-in-the-air.com/northamerica/logbuch/ That is the first passenger certified Ju-52 since 1937. And since the folks at the Airforce Center D?bendorf are TTBOMK mostly swiss, you can bet that bird is in top condition ;-) > A vitage car, used on public roads is at the mercy of other drivers, but > used on a test track it's a lot less likely to get wrecked. I do see the occasional vintage car around here from time to time on the public roads, usually in very well cared for condition. And the drivers do tend to drive rather carefully, of course. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Aug 11 16:45:31 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Richard wrote: > Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:53:46 -0600 > From: Richard > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 > > Does anyone have one of these boards? > > They are derived from research at UNC on Pixel Planes. > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > Pretty sure I have some but will have to dig to check. BTW a personal DS 5000-33 we use as a DNS/DHCP server died in the last power outage we had, thats something like 20 years of use (first with its original owner: UCB and then with us) Had to swap the power supply with another one to get it back running. Should I complain about lously electrolytics? Peter Wallace From doc at vaxen.net Sat Aug 11 16:59:01 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:59:01 -0500 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: References: <1649B90B-9707-47EC-BFFF-58EE331573FC@gmail.com> <50253C1F.706@arachelian.com> <31A3839F-CCEB-46A2-AAF8-FBE8D79065BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5026D5A5.7040208@vaxen.net> On 8/10/12 12:54 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > Do IBM do AIX hobby licenses? Hmmm.... I don't have any media for the > dead machine. I do have a mysterious backup tape, but I bet you need > the OS working to install that. BAHAHAHAHAAAA! Yes, at least for AIX v4.3. I am the only person I know of to actually *get* that license from IBM and run it. It took 2 weeks and probably 25 hours on the phone.... IBM historically has a "don't wanna know" attitude toward private, non-commercial use of AIX. On partitioned systems running it for free a little harder to do, but the bottom line is that IBM has *NO* mechanism for selling (or providing in any way) AIX to private individuals. Ask Cameron. :) Doc From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Aug 11 17:00:29 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 23:00:29 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: {begin pedantry} I'll butt in and say, yes twinax is serial, but no not in a RS232 serial terminal way. Twinax (twin-axial) only describes the cabling infrastructure. Normally twinax networking refers to an IBM specific workstation infrastructure common to their mid range before the ubiquitity of TCP/IP. The protocol was block mode rather than character. The transmission is serial based I believe, but not RS232 compliant. The signalling is compatible with twisted pair, as well as the twin core coaxial cable from which the whole communication infrastructure typically nicknamed. The protocol is typically referred to as 5250 after the original workstation model. But unlike typical serial comms, it is a bus topology. So not really an intersecting set in a meaningful compatibility kind of way.{end pedantry} ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >> >[Terminals] > >> Serial or twinax? > >Isn't twinax a subset of serial? > >-tony -- Colin From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Aug 11 17:08:54 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <5026D5A5.7040208@vaxen.net> from Doc at "Aug 11, 12 04:59:01 pm" Message-ID: <201208112208.q7BM8spt8978596@floodgap.com> > > Do IBM do AIX hobby licenses? Hmmm.... I don't have any media for the > > dead machine. I do have a mysterious backup tape, but I bet you need > > the OS working to install that. > > BAHAHAHAHAAAA! > > Yes, at least for AIX v4.3. I am the only person I know of to > actually *get* that license from IBM and run it. It took 2 weeks and > probably 25 hours on the phone.... > > IBM historically has a "don't wanna know" attitude toward private, > non-commercial use of AIX. On partitioned systems running it for free a > little harder to do, but the bottom line is that IBM has *NO* mechanism > for selling (or providing in any way) AIX to private individuals. > > Ask Cameron. :) Oh gawd, yes. We, the private AIX non-corp users, aren't worth IBM's white- shirt-and-sincere-tie time. I went around and around fruitlessly for weeks to buy hardware and media from them. Just take my money, I said! So I gave up and bought both the server and later the AIX media secondhand. The only "new" AIX I ever got was with my Apple Network Server. Otherwise, I just have eBay media sets. Ironically, now that I have connections with our large municipal IT department, the IBM salesdroid showed mock horror when I related this story to him and perhaps they'll be a bit more forthcoming next time. I can understand them not wanting to openly handle end-user sales, but if someone's sitting there with a credit card ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Good times, noodle salad. -- "As Good As It Gets" -------------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 11 18:43:03 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:43:03 -0600 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Peter C. Wallace" writes: > Pretty sure I have some but will have to dig to check. I would love to see some pictures of it! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 18:51:32 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 09:51:32 +1000 Subject: IBM 5324? - was Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:56 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > my search-fu is weak or that is a tough machine to find much about, anyone > have any further details? is it part of the IBM Datamaster family? > I found more hits in comp.sys.ibm.sys3x which suggest to me that the IBM 5324 is simply a storage peripheral, that is a dual 8-inch floppy drive subsystem (perhaps including the controller onboard, hence the size of the case). From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 19:03:31 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am Message-ID: <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Tony Duell > Wikipedia says it was used in the Rainbow 100. It was. Or to be more preciese, it was used in the colour/graphics add-on board for the 'bow. The 7220 was also used in the VT240 terminal IIRC (which has a graphics system very like that of the 'bow colour card). And in the HH Tiger. But I susepct findign docuemtnation on those is a lot harder. -tony C: As was mentioned it was used in the NEC APC (and APC III). But the earlier APC had 2 of them. Not sure why, I don't have a lot of docs for it, but I know that you could pan and zoom in on a virtual screen, that was larger then the visible 640 x 400 or 480. I don't even have a complete APC anymore. I'm missing the cpu and floppy cards, though I managed to hold onto the aftermarket Butler Flats Associates floppy controller for 5 1/4" drives (and ironically the stock fdc is a 8272/nec 765 chip, and the aftermarket uses a wdc 1770 or 1771. Go figure). I'm starring in a remake of an old classic movie, though slightly altered from the original - Escape from New Jersey. Things tend to get jostled around and sometimes even lost (i.e tossed in the skip) during a mad exodus. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 19:06:20 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5324? - was Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1344729980.4727.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Nigel Williams On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:56 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > my search-fu is weak or that is a tough machine to find much about, anyone > have any further details? is it part of the IBM Datamaster family? > I found more hits in comp.sys.ibm.sys3x which suggest to me that the IBM 5324 is simply a storage peripheral, that is a dual 8-inch floppy drive subsystem (perhaps including the controller onboard, hence the size of the case). C: All fine and good, but the System 23/Datamaster already has 2x 8" drives (that never shut off incidentally). Why would it need 2 more? I guess that's the way some people worked. The former Canon rep who gave me my Color Canon As-100 said he used to daisy chain vast arrays of 8" drives. Whatever works for ya, that's what I always say. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 19:09:11 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:09:11 +1000 Subject: IBM 5324? - was Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Nigel Williams < > nigel.d.williams at gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:56 PM, JP Hindin wrote: >> my search-fu is weak or that is a tough machine to find much about, >> anyone have any further details? is it part of the IBM Datamaster family? >> > > I found more hits in comp.sys.ibm.sys3x which suggest to me that the IBM > 5324 is simply a storage peripheral, that is a dual 8-inch floppy drive > subsystem (perhaps including the controller onboard, hence the size of the > case). > I could be wrong about the above statement, another hit suggests the 5324 could be a IBM System/23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23 aka IBM 5322). From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 11 19:11:10 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:11:10 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Colin Eby writes: > So not really an intersecting set in a meaningful compatibility kind of > way. Exactly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 19:26:38 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:26:38 +1000 Subject: IBM 5324? - was Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: <1344729980.4727.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344729980.4727.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: All fine and good, but the System 23/Datamaster already has 2x 8" > drives (that never shut off incidentally). Why would it need 2 more? I > guess that's the way some people worked. > I was trying to interpret this comment found in the newsgroup: "I have four IBM System/23 computer systems ( 1 5322 and 3 Diskless 5324s) along with one 5247 disk unit and one 5246 diskette unit for sale or trade." https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.ibm.sys3x.misc/yvp5T1V2fNk/5POeETp2VYwJ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 19:54:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5324? - was Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: References: <1344729980.4727.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1344732865.95041.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Nigel Williams I was trying to interpret this comment found in the newsgroup: "I have four IBM System/23 computer systems ( 1 5322 and 3 Diskless 5324s) along with one 5247 disk unit and one 5246 diskette unit for sale or trade." https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.ibm.sys3x.misc/yvp5T1V2fNk/5POeETp2VYwJ C: Aye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP8FNGEBBeE From chd at chdickman.com Sat Aug 11 19:56:11 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:56:11 -0400 Subject: IBM terminals (shame on Richard) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 12:02 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > The 5080 family of terminals is probably up your alley. But, they seem > to be rare. > These were CAD terminals, right? I have the board sets from about half a dozen of these. There were used with CADAM and were connected to a 4381. We converted to a different CAD system in 1999 and all the mainframe stuff was scrapped because of Y2K. I wish I had gotten one complete system, but they were all sent to the dumpster. Somebody in the grounds crew discovered that there was a lot of aluminium in the chassis so they chopped them up and with the intention of selling the aluminium and having a party. Not sure if the party ever happened, but they had no use for the boards. There is a 68000 based computer and a 2900 based bit slice processor of some kind on the boards. There is a floppy interface also. My intention at the time was to harvest the 2900 parts to build a homebrew processor. In the long run, a complete system would have been much more interesting. -chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 20:08:44 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Old radio and tv tubes in Omaha, NE Message-ID: <1344733724.79977.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> http://omaha.craigslist.org/gms/3188782630.html noticed in my travels. Doesn't hurt to alert :) From jws at jwsss.com Sat Aug 11 20:20:26 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:20:26 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502704DA.9030103@jwsss.com> On 8/11/2012 1:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [Terminals] > >> Serial or twinax? > Isn't twinax a subset of serial? > > -tony > Only if 3270 is. The 3270 / 52xx terminals put the smarts all in the controller. They vary little in that portion of the hardware in other than electrical connection. There is a stream of commands via channel or comms to the controller with the data out to the terminal and any keyboard commands / input streamed back. There is little of interest in what people call the terminal in most cases. The protocol out is continuous in nature as well. The return protocol reads modified fields from the terminal. If you do not position the cursor and prepare the terminal for input you get nothing. Neither of these are remotely problems with asynchronous serial terminals. With some multidrop terminals possibly, but the vast majority of serial protocols only have flow control both hardware and software, and the output can be completely random in both directions. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 11 20:29:45 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:29:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: <5026CEA9.1020502@gmail.com> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> <5026CEA9.1020502@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Dave Wade wrote: > On 11/08/2012 12:04, Mark Benson wrote: >> On 11 Aug 2012, at 11:00, Dave Wade wrote: >>> On 11/08/2012 09:30, Mark Benson wrote: >>>> >>>> Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy the >>>> 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or expensive. >>>> I've got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of white flat >>>> 6-core cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think the MMJ plugs >>>> were about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. >>>> >>>> I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I >>>> guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) >>>> >>> Could you make me up a lead for my VaxStation 3100? >> If you let me know what you need on each end and how long, sure. > > Well I guess a couple of meters should be enough. A 9-pin female wired > to fit a PC port would be nice on the other end the so I can use PUTTY > et al as a terminal to get the thing running as I don't have a keyboard, > mouse or display. How much would you want for this? Do you take Pay Pal? For a normal MMJ to MMJ cable, I'd suggest starting with a 10ft cable. That seemed to be the most versatile length and was the most popular length that I used to sell in my eBay store. The DE9 to MMJ cables I sold were slightly longer at 14ft, which people really seemed to like (I sold 100s of them). If there is ever much demand I could always go back into low-volume production on some of those cables and adapters. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 11 21:00:29 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 21:00:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Dave Wade wrote: >> On 11/08/2012 09:30, Mark Benson wrote: >>> On 11 Aug 2012, at 06:22, Tothwolf wrote: >>> >>>> [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than >>>> never.] >>> Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy the >>> 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or expensive. >>> I've got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of white flat >>> 6-core cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think the MMJ plugs >>> were about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. >>> >>> I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I >>> guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) >> >> Could you make me up a lead for my VaxStation 3100? The plugs are cheap >> enough but a crip tool to match looks harder/more expensive... > > There is a really, really nice crimp tool on eBay right now with a number of > extra diesets. I'll send you the link since it might be something you could > use. I don't want to post the link on-list though because then people might > very likely fight over it. If I didn't already own several of them I'd be > tempted to nab it myself just for the extra diesets. Dave mentioned that import taxes would be somewhat high, so if someone in the US has a use for the crimp tool, send me an email off-list and I'll provide the link. From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Aug 11 21:50:39 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 02:50:39 +0000 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/9/12 8:29 PM, "William Donzelli" wrote: >> Electronics are simply going to fail no matter if you use them or not. >>Most >> electronic components simply can't last forever. > >Nothing lasts forever. Get used to it. > >But using electronics makes forever a much shorter time - there are >bushels of engineering studies on component reliability out there if >you do not believe me. > >-- >Will > > Citations, please. There is another school of thought that maintaining systems in running condition, and running them, extends their lifespan. I've not seen literature that suggests that using solid-state components shortens their lifespan as long as they are treated well (not run at extreme temperatures, no voltage spikes, etc.). We run our ECL-based 2065 24 x 7 to avoid thermal stress on its components, for example. -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Aug 11 21:55:23 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 02:55:23 +0000 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50249710.2050704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 8/9/12 10:07 PM, "jim s" wrote: > >On 8/9/2012 9:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Simulating everything for a computer museum is like a regular museum >>>having nothing but reproduction artifacts. It doesn't work well. >> Please note that I said nothing about a computer museum using >> simulators. The question asked was: >> >>>>>> So how can the current generation learn about their computer >>>>>>heritage? >>>>>> Replicas? Reproductions? >> I replied: >> >>> Simulators are good. >> Note no museum use was mentioned. >> >> Simulators work well for this, and can be run from the comfort of >> anyone's home. No museum required. >> >> So please reconsider your post and how things were actually said. >> Please do not stoop to Tony's level, twisting my words at any occasion >> - you will end up soiling your reputation (back to the "don't be a >> dick" idea). >> >> Anyway, here is a fun thought experiment. Consider two absolutely >> identical big machines from the 1960s. Take one, and restore it to >> operation. Take the other, and put it into a museum archive and >> preserved. Wait 30 years. Now, in 2042, compare the two machines. The >> running one will be quite a bit more "used" than the preserved one, >> just from normal wear and tear on the components. Now here is the >> twist - in 30 years ago, simulators will be magnitudes beyond what we >> have today. Simulating not only the architecture, but the sounds, >> smells, colors, textures, and so forth. Yes, virtual reality. Now, >> what would you want your near perfect simulation to be based off of - >> the machine that was used far longer than its normal working history, >> or the one that was preserved as it was just taken out of service? >> >> -- >> Will >> >Simulators also help do something with software that running artifacts >can't do. They get the software off of bitsavers and into a lot more >places than just a few old farts with working machines. I think the dec >software is far more healthy today for the work of simh and others to >write simulators than if such didn't exist. > >I remember back in the good old days (mine were in the mid 70's on) that >I wish I had simulators because even when this crap was new it was a >pain in the ass. I'm into hardware and all, but software and a >simulator will present the same thing thru a terminal as the real thing, >sometimes better, which is an added plus. > >the simulator I have runs over 500x as fast as the original hardware, >which I'm just fine with. > >After you've gotten all the feel of the original, there is still the >original thing we came for, which is delivered most times just as well >with a simulator and original software. > >Of the topic a it as it is preserving hardware, noise components. They >have the most value in the market, but I get way more of a thrill from >seeing the latest thing Al got on bitsavers than the hardware, or even >better help him get something there. > >Jim It's not "simulators OR restoration/preservation", it's "simulators AND restoration/preservation. I have hopes that now that we're discussing the problem, future ventures in this vein will not be as problematic or, as one worker calls it, "heroic". And I suspect that component level simulation can offer greater integrity than monolithic emulation. To be published soon.... -- Ian > From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 22:30:14 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:30:14 -0700 Subject: NCR MiniTower/Tower XP Service Manual ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50272346.3090907@gmail.com> I am trying to fix an old 68010 based NCR box (Class 3400 Model 2113) which makes this a Tower XP as far as I can figure out. I think the MiniTower and Tower XP were basically the same thing but, info is sketchy at best. I am looking for the Service Manual for either. Someone was trying to give one away in comp.sys.ncr circa 1992 so, they do exist. Well did in 1992 anyway. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 23:05:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 00:05:30 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Citations, please. Less than 45 seconds of Google found this report from Panasonic: http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/en/common_info/q_manual/pdf/t04007be-3.pdf And there are a lot more where it came from. -- Will From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 00:19:32 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 22:19:32 -0700 Subject: Looking for a DEC MXV11-B Message-ID: <50273CE4.1080202@gmail.com> Anyone have an MXV11-B (M7195) going spare? I'd like to be able to use TU58 emulation to get my "tiny" (SB-11) 11/23 system bootstrapped, plus right now the only dual-height memory board I have is a mere 32K; the MXV11-B seems like a perfect fit for this system (128K, dual SLU, LTC, etc) if I can just find one... Thanks as always, Josh From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 00:31:18 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 01:31:18 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a lot to that report. It is also only dealing with semiconductor devices. While semiconductors are a crucial component, they are not the only one. The problem is that none of these documents are studies on conservation. The way I see it, this is still in its larval form. Only 70 years ago these machines hadn't even been invented yet, that is within the life span of quite a few people who are still around. We just don't know how best to preserve a computer. The world needs data. The only way to get data is to do our best, and try different strategies. There are many very clever people on this list and elsewhere. With enough effort, anything can be made and replaced. It's going to be a crapshoot either way until we've had more experience with this stuff. That being said, there is a caveat that always has to be considered with computers. Computers are unique in this world being machines with half of themselves existing as non-material information. A computer which is not running is not running any software. This, by necessity, requires abandoning the ability to communicate an enormous portion of computer history to the public. A PDP is only a shell without the blinking lights, RSX-11/M, punched paper tape, ITS, etc. Leaving out the software is like taking a Model T and chopping it in half. You are only displaying a fragment, not the whole story. On some level people must be able to use the software, to experience it, to understand it. People must be engaged with the computer before they can understand the historical context of the machine, and what it has meant to the people using it. If a person doesn't understand the process of punching cards, booking computer time at 3AM, and waiting for your $300 printout, they aren't understanding the computer. If a person doesn't understand the process of having to load the boot loader with toggle switches, they aren't understanding the computer. It's not necessary to convey the experience exactly. But an approximation can give people the feel of what it was like. I think if people aren't given the opportunity to experience that, they can't understand the frustration, aggravation and passion that the computer has engendered. Many have fallen in love with these machines, and many have cursed at them(often this is the same person). Without doing it for themselves, people won't understand why. I think it would be tragic for people to not understand why. The computer is most likely the most important invention mankind has created to date. The impact is so dramatic we are not even cognizant of it. I, for one, love computers - have almost my entire life. I want others to understand why. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-12, at 12:05 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Citations, please. > > Less than 45 seconds of Google found this report from Panasonic: > > http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/en/common_info/q_manual/pdf/t04007be-3.pdf > > And there are a lot more where it came from. > > -- > Will From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 12 01:06:41 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 01:06:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Sat, 11 Aug 2012, Dave Wade wrote: >>> On 11/08/2012 09:30, Mark Benson wrote: >>>> On 11 Aug 2012, at 06:22, Tothwolf wrote: >>>> >>>>> [Somehow this discussion thread slipped by me, but better late than >>>>> never.] >>>> Just an FYI - I've found several people selling MMJ plugs on eBay buy the >>>> 100. At least over here, they aren't hard to get hold of or expensive. >>>> I've got a bag of them in myt desk drawer and a 100m reelf of white flat >>>> 6-core cable. No one of those cost me over 20 GBP, I think the MMJ plugs >>>> were about 4-5 GBP for a bag of 100. >>>> >>>> I'm kind of amazed there is still so much gear about to do these, but I >>>> guess the standard was at one time somewhat ubiquitous :) >>> >>> Could you make me up a lead for my VaxStation 3100? The plugs are cheap >>> enough but a crip tool to match looks harder/more expensive... >> >> There is a really, really nice crimp tool on eBay right now with a number >> of extra diesets. I'll send you the link since it might be something you >> could use. I don't want to post the link on-list though because then people >> might very likely fight over it. If I didn't already own several of them >> I'd be tempted to nab it myself just for the extra diesets. > > Dave mentioned that import taxes would be somewhat high, so if someone in the > US has a use for the crimp tool, send me an email off-list and I'll provide > the link. It's gone, Dan Veeneman got it. Here is the link in case someone wondered which tool this was and why I didn't initially post the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/280938330307 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 01:30:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 02:30:07 -0400 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50274D6F.6080704@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 02:06 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > It's gone, Dan Veeneman got it. Here is the link in case someone > wondered which tool this was and why I didn't initially post the link: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/280938330307 That is exactly the crimper I have. I have standard and MMJ dies for it. I've used the hell out of it for something like twelve years and it's still like new! If memory serves, I paid nearly $200 for the crimper and the extra die. Dan got a really, really good deal here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 12 01:48:10 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 08:48:10 +0200 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> On 2012-08-12 02:03, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: As was mentioned it was used in the NEC APC (and APC III). But the earlier APC had 2 of them. Not sure why > I don't have a lot of docs for it, but I know that you could pan and zoom in on a virtual screen, The 7220 was not really fast. We made board back then, where we had one 7220 for every plane ( took us 8 for the 256 colors) and mixed the color later. Newer used any ***windowing system on it, was just GKS for a customer ... From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 02:40:03 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 01:40:03 -0600 Subject: Looking for a DEC MXV11-B In-Reply-To: <50273CE4.1080202@gmail.com> References: <50273CE4.1080202@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Josh, I should have a few left and will look tomorrow. Thanks, Paul On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:19 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone have an MXV11-B (M7195) going spare? I'd like to be able to use TU58 > emulation to get my "tiny" (SB-11) 11/23 system bootstrapped, plus right now > the only dual-height memory board I have is a mere 32K; the MXV11-B seems > like a perfect fit for this system (128K, dual SLU, LTC, etc) if I can just > find one... > > Thanks as always, > Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 12 02:47:04 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 01:47:04 -0600 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> emanuel stiebler wrote: > The 7220 was not really fast. When the uPD7220 was introduced, it was about the fastest graphics you could get short of a large and very expensive board full of bitslice components and/or hardwired datapaths. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 12 02:59:00 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 02:59:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: <50274D6F.6080704@neurotica.com> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> <50274D6F.6080704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/12/2012 02:06 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >> It's gone, Dan Veeneman got it. Here is the link in case someone >> wondered which tool this was and why I didn't initially post the link: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/280938330307 > > That is exactly the crimper I have. I have standard and MMJ dies for > it. I've used the hell out of it for something like twelve years and > it's still like new! > > If memory serves, I paid nearly $200 for the crimper and the extra die. > Dan got a really, really good deal here. It's a very very nice crimp tool. I have too many of them as it is, so I /really/ didn't need yet another one. Still, if a long time list member hadn't spoken up and gotten it, I'd have been tempted to nab it just for the dies. From colineby at isallthat.com Sun Aug 12 03:02:00 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 09:02:00 +0100 Subject: IBM terminals (shame on Richard) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d84f2e6-8a07-4605-b61b-d0f008a5475b@email.android.com> {begin mercilous plug} TNMoC has an IBM 5080 connected to a PC/RT running CAD software on display most public opening days. Thought I'd mention this tangentially in case the system was of interest.{end mercilous plug} Charles Dickman wrote: >On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 12:02 AM, William Donzelli >wrote: > >> >> The 5080 family of terminals is probably up your alley. But, they >seem >> to be rare. >> > >These were CAD terminals, right? I have the board sets from about half >a >dozen of these. There were used with CADAM and were connected to a >4381. We >converted to a different CAD system in 1999 and all the mainframe stuff >was >scrapped because of Y2K. I wish I had gotten one complete system, but >they >were all sent to the dumpster. Somebody in the grounds crew discovered >that >there was a lot of aluminium in the chassis so they chopped them up and >with the intention of selling the aluminium and having a party. Not >sure if >the party ever happened, but they had no use for the boards. > >There is a 68000 based computer and a 2900 based bit slice processor of >some kind on the boards. There is a floppy interface also. My intention >at >the time was to harvest the 2900 parts to build a homebrew processor. > >In the long run, a complete system would have been much more >interesting. > >-chuck -- Colin From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 03:32:25 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:32:25 +0200 Subject: Identify two cards (Unibus and Q-Bus) Message-ID: I picked up the last of Fred's stuff yesterday, and I have a couple of cards I can't find much information on: 1. UNIBUS card made by ComDesign Picture at http://flic.kr/p/cQ6PYd. Marked "Epsilon US 2000 Board" and "Assy no. 010231". It's got a 80186, 1 2910, 2 2901's and an 82586 (IEEE802.3 coprocessor). I therefore figure this is a UNIBUS Ethernet NIC (like a DELUA). Is anything known about these cards? DIP switch configuration would be good to know, as would the function of the 5 on/off toggle switches on top. 2. Q-BUS card, probably made by Plessey Picture at http://flic.kr/p/cQ6Rtf. Marked "P/N 703365-100D". Has a COM8017 UART. Nothing else known... Thanks, Camiel From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 12 03:57:27 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:57:27 +0200 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120812105727.2a3ad798.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:53:46 -0600 Richard wrote: > Does anyone have one of these boards? Yes, at least one PXG+ and IIRC a PXG that's the RAM modules missing. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun Aug 12 03:56:58 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 01:56:58 -0700 Subject: IBM terminals (shame on Richard) In-Reply-To: <8d84f2e6-8a07-4605-b61b-d0f008a5475b@email.android.com> References: <8d84f2e6-8a07-4605-b61b-d0f008a5475b@email.android.com> Message-ID: <50276FDA.4080905@gorge.net> I remember the coiffed, pert lady typing on the IBM terminal in the 60's ads. But networks, email and database access weren't invented until the late 80's according to the visionaries and pseudo historians.. I guess BBN and Berkeley invented everything we now use daily. Don't even get me started about IPV6. Jim D. Sorry, My Mom passed today and I'm not clear (too Scientology-ie), Collected? rational, sober? Fuck it. I just hate people who profess the computing universe was invented with CERN's WWW in the late 80's The Swift-Tuttle (not Buttle) shower tonight has been a bit of a bust. About 10-30 /hr, mostly really small 1-5 degree trails, no really big "light up the sky, smoke trails" . From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Aug 12 04:11:39 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:11:39 +0100 Subject: Identify two cards (Unibus and Q-Bus) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5027734B.8080406@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/08/2012 09:32, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I picked up the last of Fred's stuff yesterday, and I have a couple of > cards I can't find much information on: > 2. Q-BUS card, probably made by Plessey > Picture at http://flic.kr/p/cQ6Rtf. Marked "P/N 703365-100D". Has a > COM8017 UART. Nothing else known... It is Plessey, and my list tells me it's an MFV1 Multifunction Card. It's not the same thing as a Plessey 705114 MFV11B Multifunction Card, but I can't tell you more than that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Aug 12 07:22:41 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 14:22:41 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120812122241.GB2406@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 01:19:23AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > For "hands on" experiences, that ultimately means that every exhibit > > will degrade into some sort of replica. > > Yes, I suppose. The pre-WW2 airplane people are headed this way > already. Look up "Rhinebeck Aerodrome". > > > Well, at least until the singularity let's us reverse engineer circuit > > diagrams from chips. The imaging of 6502 and SID chips yielding an > > executable simulation of the chip is probably the route that we'll > > have to take. We'll end up with an executable simulation, but still > > be lacking in design documents. > > Keep in mind that the design tools that can be used to reverse > engineer VLSI chips will also continue to improve. These days, taking > a first generation logic IC and *completely* reverse engineering it is > completely feasible even with outdated tools. What will it be like in > 2042? Fancy SGI VLSI may turn out to be child's play. Well, the floor plan for a first generation SPARC cpu was hanging in an office in a certain east german university in the year 1989. Then certain changes happened and the massive reverse engineering efforts there stopped. Quite a few years earlier, they had designed the U880 as an almost functionally identical copy of the Z80 via reverse-engineering the original chips. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Aug 12 07:47:32 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 08:47:32 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> On 08/12/2012 03:47 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > emanuel stiebler wrote: >> The 7220 was not really fast. > > When the uPD7220 was introduced, it was about the fastest graphics you > could get short of a large and very expensive board full of bitslice > components and/or hardwired datapaths. > > As one of the product team for NEC at the time that's correct. One has to remember the introduction of the part in 1981 predates the IBM PC. The world at the time was 8bit busses (z80 common, 6502, or 8088 emerging). It had the needed bits for a dynamic ram interface for large arrays (megabit sized). Odddly at the time displays were also a limitation for both resolution as pixels per scan (video bandwidth) line and number of scan lines(limited by spot size and vertical scan systems). Also at the time the 64K Dram was a new and very expensive part plus it was not all that fast either. In fact the fastest ram was the 2147 (1kx4) and 2167 (16kx1) and they were scarce and expensive for the fastest 35ns part. te standard part was 55ns! Oddly the next generation of large displays (1024x1024 or color in that or larger) would all be handled by the cpu (32bit) to a memory map. That was the workstation era with the SPARC, MIPS, ARM, and VAX, CPUs. Intelligent display controllers were late 90s for common reappearance. I used to call on Cyron and a few of the other houses in the northeast that did high end graphics display systems. The boxes of the time were large, typically 6-12 VME or double height Multibus sized cards and many were full custom size boards with 2900 based hardware, and lots of DRAM. Allison From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 08:24:49 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 Message-ID: <1344777889.20103.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> not sure the 2nd 7220 in the APC is for more colors or not. They are on separate boards. My rather uneducated guess was a 2nd was needed to implement the virtual screen. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Aug 12 08:27:00 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 14:27:00 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: from "Tothwolf" at Aug 9, 12 08:17:58 pm Message-ID: <7D4576AD9EE94941927D37A9A2B9B4E2@MailBox> So its time for who's got the oldest working active electronic component competition. Two classes - Valves / Tubes and transistors / ic's Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ????? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 10 August 2012 19:51 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > Electronics are simply going to fail no matter if you use them or not. > Most electronic components simply can't last forever. Preciisely my point. Storing it and never running it will _not_ allow it to last for ever. In fact you might well find that when it is turned on sometime in the future, it deosn't run, and can't be made ot run again. In which case you might as well have run it now and had some use out of it. -tony From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 09:16:15 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:16:15 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001201cd7895$092eba90$1b8c2fb0$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of allison > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:48 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > [snip] > > > As one of the product team for NEC at the time that's correct. > > One has to remember the introduction of the part in 1981 predates the IBM > PC. The world at the time was 8bit busses (z80 common, 6502, or 8088 > emerging). It had the needed bits for a dynamic ram interface for large arrays [snip] Thanks Allison! The NEC uPD7220 is a historical GDC and never got the appreciation it deserved for its ground breaking nature. It is a shame it was overwhelmed by the domination of IBM PC and its use of the much inferior, IMO, use of the MC6845 CRTC. The MC6845/SY6545 works fine as a character mode CRTC for terminals and such but it seems clear it was never really intended for bitmap graphics and we have struggled with its strangeness ever since. Ironically many of the same concepts found in the uPD7220 we later reintroduced to microcomputers as VGA "accelerators" about 5-10 years later. Regardless of whether the uPD7220 is suitable for bitmap graphics like an X server, I am preparing an S-100 uPD7220 prototype board. If anyone would like to participate in a build and test, getting prototype boards, or whatever please contact me. It will be an S-100 version of the previously developed N8VEM ECB uPD7220 board. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, BTW there are still plenty of the ECB uPD7220 GDC board PCBs left. They are readily adapted to almost any microcomputer/embedded/vintage type system. They work well and interface to standard VGA monitors. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 10:18:15 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:18:15 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation Message-ID: > There's a lot to that report. It is also only dealing with semiconductor devices. While semiconductors are a crucial component, they are not the only one. Yes, but it is basically the first thing I found (and being tired after going to the Kagan memorial, I was not about to make a big project about it). The point is that Ian wanted a citation, so I gave him one, in less than a minute's worth of Google. There are similar studies on other components and materials, certainly. Even the paint industry has its own bushel of studies about paint aging. I will leave the discovery of those to you guys. > The problem is that none of these documents are studies on conservation. The way I see it, this is still in its larval form. Only 70 years ago these machines hadn't even been invented yet, that is within the life span of quite a few people who are still around. We just don't know how best to preserve a computer. The world needs data. Very, true, but we can make some very good guesses on how to preserve these machines. At least with the modern materials found in computers - materials that "normal" museums do not have to deal with - conservators can look to the bushels of engineering reliability studies, like that Panasonic one I pointed out, for some guidance. It is not shooting in the dark. > The only way to get data is to do our best, and try different strategies. There are many very clever people on this list and elsewhere. With enough effort, anything can be made and replaced. It's going to be a crapshoot either way until we've had more experience with this stuff. Yes, we need more data on this. But, one way to certainly taint that data is to keep using the materials (keep running the machines). > It's not necessary to convey the experience exactly. But an approximation can give people the feel of what it was like. Yes, and this is why simulations and living museums, like the Living Computer Museum, are good as well. For the time being, until we can have our perfect virtual reality simulators, having a running machine in a raised floor room is the best we can do, but it uses the artifact and changes what it is (I am not sure I want to get into a "historic fabric" fight with anyone at this point). Those changes can not be reversed, no matter what anyone says. This is why it is good to have machines that are in museums, preserved and not run at all. Everyone, please do not hate on the museums that preserve the machines by not running them - they have a point for doing so. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 10:26:49 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:26:49 -0400 Subject: IBM terminals (shame on Richard) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > These were CAD terminals, right? Yes. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 10:36:49 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:36:49 -0500 Subject: C64 PSU specs In-Reply-To: References: <50255B84.2090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5027CD91.9040109@gmail.com> On 08/10/2012 03:59 PM, healyzh at aracnet.com wrote: >> Anyway, I'd like to sort out a better PSU for the machine itself until I >> can get a genuine one from somewhere - does anyone know what a reasonable >> max current draw on the 9VAC lines might be? (This is an original >> 'breadbox' machine) > > I'd worry less about a genuine PowerSupply, and more about getting a good > one! A few years back I got a good one off of eBay. It's a 3rd party > supply noted for being repairable, and being able to provide more current > than genuine Powersupplies. The genuine Commodore PS's suck. Yes, although my only experience related to them was with a Plus/4 with a dead PSU many years ago, which became a futile exercise in removing potting compound! They do seem to have a very bad reputation, though. I suppose I quite like things to *look* original even when they're not, so I wouldn't be against finding a dead PSU and fitting it with more reliable innards. Of course it's hard to justify buying a dead PSU and paying shipping costs, only to throw away the heavy bit when it arrives :-) >> The wall-wart 9VAC PSU that I found for testing is only rated for 400mA, >> which I suspect might be on the low side; I've seen claims of needing 1A >> or >> more, and http://www.hardwarebook.info/C64/128_User_Port only states 100mA >> max for the user port, suggesting that the machine itself might require >> quite a lot under certain conditions. > > Just how much depends on what you have plugged into it. IIRC, one of the > big power drains is an REU. Well, I don't really have any plans to expand it - I'd probably only ever use it with the 1541, display and possibly a joystick (although I was never a big fan of joysticks 'back in the day'). I suppose I can't rule out the possibility of it becoming a 'hackable' machine, but I've got 6502-based card/backplane systems in overseas storage which will fill that desire one day when I can get them shipped over to me. I'm just not sure how close to the limit my 400mA supply is. Perhaps it's OK to assume that if it's working with it now, it will continue to do so so long as I don't add anything that uses the 9V, and I can package that PSU into a box alongside a 5VDC supply, but I don't like assumptions if I can avoid them. > I really need to figure out how to find space to setup my main C64 in my > Office! I miss being able to use it! I'm glad to have this one. It's one of those systems that I've never actively sought out, but quite wanted to have one day - a friend had one back in the 80s and I recall being a little jealous of it at the time in comparison to my Spectrum (which nonetheless wasn't a bad machine to play games on or program). Oh, the previous owner said that the (untested - it sounds like they found everything in a dumpster) 1541 was broken as it rattled. That turned out to be a pen cap kicking around inside the case, so fingers crossed the drive's otherwise OK! Shame that whoever dumped it didn't dump any software to go with it, though :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 10:41:47 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:41:47 -0500 Subject: C64 PSU specs In-Reply-To: References: <50255B84.2090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5027CEBB.4010701@gmail.com> On 08/10/2012 02:42 PM, David Griffith wrote: > There is a bunch of discussion about this over at the midibox.org forums. > They've come up with a couple designs for replacement linear supplies and > have specced out some switchers. Thanks - I've found a few threads over there related to PSUs, so will have a read through them. I'm pretty sure I've got an ex-PC PSU somewhere in the junk pile with dead caps on the +12V, which might make for the basis of a nice little 5VDC supply for this C64 if I were to go the non-original route; it's just the 9VAC side which is a bit of an unknown, and whether my little 400mA supply will cope. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 12 10:39:31 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 09:39:31 -0600 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: <20120812105727.2a3ad798.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120812105727.2a3ad798.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20120812105727.2a3ad798.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:53:46 -0600 > Richard wrote: > > > Does anyone have one of these boards? > Yes, at least one PXG+ and IIRC a PXG that's the RAM modules missing. I'd like to see some high resolution close-up pictures if possible! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 10:47:26 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:47:26 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> > Yes, we need more data on this. But, one way to certainly > taint that data is to keep using the materials (keep running > the machines). > I think though that for many machine your recent comparison with Inca (was it Inca?) pottery and other archaeology is not especially relevant. I doubt if we have any working drawings, or other written documentation on how these machines work. For many computers such as the IBM 1130, the PDP-8 and even the ICT 1301 we have copious documentation, drawings, records, photographs and software. We understand the technology and contraction of these machines in intimate detail. Given sufficient funds we could, as with the Manchester Mk1 (Baby) produce modern replicas of these machines. Some such as the IBM 1130, would be expensive to replicate as it used IBM SLT "Hybrid" circuits and cartridge disks, but I am sure there is enough information available to clone the thing. Given this what on earth can we hop to learn by leaving the thing in a corner to decay. > > It's not necessary to convey the experience exactly. But an > > approximation can give people the feel of what it was like. > > Yes, and this is why simulations and living museums, like the > Living Computer Museum, are good as well. For the time being, > until we can have our perfect virtual reality simulators, > having a running machine in a raised floor room is the best > we can do, but it uses the artifact and changes what it is (I > am not sure I want to get into a "historic fabric" fight with > anyone at this point). Those changes can not be reversed, no > matter what anyone says. > > This is why it is good to have machines that are in museums, > preserved and not run at all. Everyone, please do not hate on > the museums that preserve the machines by not running them - > they have a point for doing so. > I would concede this point if care was taken to preserve machines that were not run. However in my experience machines that are not used, and considered as "un-useable" are often not looked after either. This neglect may take the simple form of not being kept in climatically controlled conditions, if on display they may not be well protected from tampering by museum visitors. I personally have observed that the exposed parts show signs of rust, or if made from one of the alloys used in die-casting, corrosion. I would expect any exposed copper to show similar signs of decay. All too often "preservation" is equated with "do not touch at all". I believe that it needs to be an active process and the condition of the artefacts must be monitored and recorded, and if decay occurs action taken. > -- > Will > > Dave From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Aug 12 11:24:00 2012 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:24:00 -0400 Subject: Anyone have printouts for KKTA/KKTB 11/44 MEM MGMT tests? Message-ID: <5027D8A0.8050900@heeltoe.com> Just curious if anyone has printouts (or scans) of the PDP-11/44 memory management diagnostics KKTA/KKTB KKTA 11/44 MEM MGMT PRT A KKTB 11/44 MEM MGMT PRT B KKTAB1.BIC xx-xxx-xx 3369 27 3395 0 KKTBD0.BIC xx-xxx-xx 3396 30 3425 0 I have the binaries from xxdp images but no listing... -brad From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 11:43:29 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:43:29 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: > I think though that for many machine your recent comparison with Inca (was > it Inca?) pottery and other archaeology is not especially relevant. Then you missed the point. And no, I was the one that compared it early archeologists trashing village sites to get to the kings, and how they destroyed sites that we really wish we had today. > I doubt > if we have any working drawings, or other written documentation on how these > machines work. Correct, and we wish we did. Archaeology is, honestly, mostly educated guesses on what little hard evidence we have. > For many computers such as the IBM 1130, the PDP-8 and even the ICT 1301 we > have copious documentation, drawings, records, photographs and software. We > understand the technology and contraction of these machines in intimate > detail. No we do not. Certain information normally does not show up in the information you list. Specifically, things related to the actually manufacture of the machines. Very little documentation points out how the machines were built, preferred vendors, subtle (or not so subtle) design flaws, normal wear during expected lifetime, and so forth. For example - can you tell me what brands of tubes IBM used in their mainframes, and why RCA somehow was dropped from their preferred vendors list? Why did Tung Sol and GE beat them? And who made the tube sockets? Amphenol? EBY? AMP? Cinch? Who was preferred there? Who cares, you ask - such a minor issue, right? Well, this is where you missed the point. We do not know what future scholars will be interested in studying with these machines. In the future, when the architecture and software of some machine are pretty well studied out, there will be people looking to dig deeper, and learn in depth about things today we see as mundane. But, by using machines, you will destroy somethings that could be very valuable evidence to these future scholars. > Given sufficient funds we could, as with the Manchester Mk1 (Baby) > produce modern replicas of these machines. Some such as the IBM 1130, would > be expensive to replicate as it used IBM SLT "Hybrid" circuits and cartridge > disks, but I am sure there is enough information available to clone the > thing. Clones are never perfect in the real world. These clones would not be able to capture many of the subtle nuances of the manufacturing processes of old. In many cases, clone makers take shortcuts, and may not document these properly, nor understand the consequences. > I would concede this point if care was taken to preserve machines that were > not run. However in my experience machines that are not used, and considered > as "un-useable" are often not looked after either. Sort of like most machines in private hands, right? You are including those in your survey, right? Yes, there are some museums that do not take care of things, just like many collectors. But, if you look at the big players in the computer museum field, you will find that they keep their holdings in secure, climate controlled areas, and as resources become available, proper stabilization is done. But their seems to be this problem that the museums that are not caring for their holdings somehow give ALL museums this bad reputation. That is not right. > I believe that it > needs to be an active process and the condition of the artefacts must be > monitored and recorded, and if decay occurs action taken. Conservation 101, first day of class. -- Will From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 11:58:20 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:58:20 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94F2C6C7-AE08-4D34-A81A-85813AB3BFA6@me.com> On 2012-08-12, at 11:18 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> There's a lot to that report. It is also only dealing with semiconductor devices. While semiconductors are a crucial component, they are not the only one. > > Yes, but it is basically the first thing I found (and being tired > after going to the Kagan memorial, I was not about to make a big > project about it). The point is that Ian wanted a citation, so I gave > him one, in less than a minute's worth of Google. > The problem is that the document does not take the effects of leaving it idle into account. The turned off vs. turned on state have to be compared. You can take some details, but it has to be considered as an entire system. Unanticipated reactions are entirely possible. Look at galvanic corrosion. The behavior of the two metals in contact differs greatly from them being separate. There can be many factors involved in the entire system that invalidate conservation data on the individual components. > > Yes, we need more data on this. But, one way to certainly taint that > data is to keep using the materials (keep running the machines). > How else are you to compare the effects of running the machine vs. leaving it off? If nothing else, the machine still has mechanical parts. When not run, these parts seize and corrode. >> For the time being, until we can > have our perfect virtual reality simulators, having a running machine > in a raised floor room is the best we can do, but it uses the artifact > and changes what it is (I am not sure I want to get into a "historic > fabric" fight with anyone at this point). Those changes can not be > reversed, no matter what anyone says. > That I think is a matter of debate. A reboot can undo many changes. It remains to be seen the effects on the hardware in their totality. > This is why it is good to have machines that are in museums, preserved > and not run at all. Everyone, please do not hate on the museums that > preserve the machines by not running them - they have a point for > doing so. > I'm not hating them. I think both approaches are important. My main point is that this isn't an easy question to answer. Mistakes are going to be made, it's an impossibility to avoid them. We have more than a century of conserving ancient artifacts under our belts, and we're still learning how best to preserve them - computers are no different. I just think that we can't afford to cut ourselves off from the software component of a system. Emulators are helpful, but emulators have to come from somewhere. They come from studying running machines, not static displays. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 12 12:11:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:11:00 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: , <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41>, Message-ID: <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2012 at 12:43, William Donzelli wrote: > Clones are never perfect in the real world. These clones would not be > able to capture many of the subtle nuances of the manufacturing > processes of old. In many cases, clone makers take shortcuts, and may > not document these properly, nor understand the consequences. I'll make one of the arguments I often make with the music people who insist on "authentic performance" of old music (e.g. Renaissance, Baroque, Classical). The least perfect instrument used in a recreation is the audience. We have been conditioned by our own time to the extent that our notions of rhythm, harmony and even tuning. The old tunings sound strange to us; we have no idea how Bach or Mozart performed their works--all we can do is guess. And we guess with our own ears conditioned by our own modern experiences. All we can hope for is to capture a ghost of the experience. The same obtains, I suspect, with attempting to create a authentic experience with old iron. Today's audience has grown up in a world where the computer's presence penetrates every corner of existence. To the user of a 7090, computers were rare things. Watching a printer create printed output from instructions punched into cards was magical. The 7090 was FAST for the time--now, even the lowliest mobile phone has a faster CPU. To someone born yesterday, can a really authentic old iron experience ever be created? I doubt it. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 12:14:01 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:14:01 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <94F2C6C7-AE08-4D34-A81A-85813AB3BFA6@me.com> References: <94F2C6C7-AE08-4D34-A81A-85813AB3BFA6@me.com> Message-ID: > The problem is that the document does not take the effects of leaving it idle into account. That specific document*, yes - but I am sure with a bit more Google you can find studies concerning semiconductor shelf life as well. (find it yourselves) > How else are you to compare the effects of running the machine vs. leaving it off Well, having a machine that was taken from active service and then placed in a museum would probably be a pretty good control subject. There, you get the history of a machine, with a portion where it is in everyday active service, then a clear demarcation where that active service stops. > If nothing else, the machine still has mechanical parts. When not run, these parts seize and corrode. Part of the art and science of conservation deals with this. And in a proper museum environment, corrosion is very much slowed down. > That I think is a matter of debate. A reboot can undo many changes. It remains to be seen the effects on the hardware in their totality. Historic fabric can not be mended. > I'm not hating them. Not you, but many on this list are. >I think both approaches are important. My main point is that this isn't an easy question to answer. Mistakes are going to be made, it's an impossibility to avoid them. We have more than a century of conserving ancient artifacts under our belts, and we're still learning how best to preserve them - computers are no different. I also think that both approaches are good. But the idea is to actually TAKE both approaches, and value them. > I just think that we can't afford to cut ourselves off from the software component of a system. Emulators are helpful, but emulators have to come from somewhere. They come from studying running machines, not static displays. Well, given time, I think there will be a decent emulator for almost every significant computer system out there. SimH, dtCyber, MAME, and the list goes on... * Remember, this is just the first document I grabbed, in order to fulfill the hungry. I did it to point out that the information is out there and easy to find. I can not say if it is a great document to show or not. -- Will From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 12:23:39 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:23:39 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: That's a good question. While computers are ubiquitous, machines like the 7090 are, if anything, even rarer than they were back then. They are very different beasts from what we use today, or will use 20 years from now. Same goes for punch cards. I'm inclined to believe that the experience of writing a program, punching the cards, and running it will be just as magical. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-12, at 1:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > To someone born yesterday, can a really authentic old iron experience > ever be created? I doubt it. > > --Chuck > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 12:28:47 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:28:47 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: 12 August 2012 17:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: To all with interest in preservation > > > > I think though that for many machine your recent comparison > with Inca > > (was it Inca?) pottery and other archaeology is not especially > > relevant. > > Then you missed the point. And no, I was the one that > compared it early archeologists trashing village sites to get > to the kings, and how they destroyed sites that we really > wish we had today. > > > I doubt > > if we have any working drawings, or other written > documentation on how > > these machines work. > > Correct, and we wish we did. Archaeology is, honestly, mostly > educated guesses on what little hard evidence we have. > > > For many computers such as the IBM 1130, the PDP-8 and even the ICT > > 1301 we have copious documentation, drawings, records, > photographs and > > software. We understand the technology and contraction of these > > machines in intimate detail. > > No we do not. > > Certain information normally does not show up in the > information you list. Specifically, things related to the > actually manufacture of the machines. Very little > documentation points out how the machines were built, > preferred vendors, subtle (or not so subtle) design flaws, > normal wear during expected lifetime, and so forth. For > example - can you tell me what brands of tubes IBM used in > their mainframes, and why RCA somehow was dropped from their > preferred vendors list? Why did Tung Sol and GE beat them? > And who made the tube sockets? Amphenol? EBY? AMP? Cinch? Who > was preferred there? > > Who cares, you ask - such a minor issue, right? > > Well, this is where you missed the point. We do not know what > future scholars will be interested in studying with these > machines. In the future, when the architecture and software > of some machine are pretty well studied out, there will be > people looking to dig deeper, and learn in depth about things > today we see as mundane. But, by using machines, you will > destroy somethings that could be very valuable evidence to > these future scholars. > I believe that the loss of the knowledge on how to run these machines would be more significant in the loss of access to data. > > Given sufficient funds we could, as with the Manchester Mk1 (Baby) > > produce modern replicas of these machines. Some such as the > IBM 1130, > > would be expensive to replicate as it used IBM SLT "Hybrid" > circuits > > and cartridge disks, but I am sure there is enough information > > available to clone the thing. > > Clones are never perfect in the real world. These clones > would not be able to capture many of the subtle nuances of > the manufacturing processes of old. In many cases, clone > makers take shortcuts, and may not document these properly, > nor understand the consequences. > > > I would concede this point if care was taken to preserve > machines that > > were not run. However in my experience machines that are > not used, and > > considered as "un-useable" are often not looked after either. > > Sort of like most machines in private hands, right? You are > including those in your survey, right? > I would say most machines in private hands, but in this world of limited funds and resources personal preservation is the only way many things will be retained. > Yes, there are some museums that do not take care of things, > just like many collectors. But, if you look at the big > players in the computer museum field, you will find that they > keep their holdings in secure, climate controlled areas, and > as resources become available, proper stabilization is done. > > But their seems to be this problem that the museums that are > not caring for their holdings somehow give ALL museums this > bad reputation. That is not right. > In my experience of travelling the world this seems to be the case. I have never visited a museum where the on-display but non-operational artefacts appear to be given any significant care and attention. Some of the places I have visited have, such as the Boston Computer Museum have closed, but others are still open. The problem is that, as we agree, preserving a computer isn't trivial or cheap, there isn't the money. Given that volunteer staff are hard to come by, yet they are the mainstay of preservation in many museums, what incentive is there for any one to participate in a museum where everything is "dead", and preserved just in case some one wants to come along later and worrying about the type of valve in it, or investigate the historic timings of DTL logic. Realistically the only way that 99% of the computers in museums get any attention is when they are used. Personally if I was asked to mothball machines I would want a proper salary whereas at present my labours are free(ish). > > I believe that it > > needs to be an active process and the condition of the > artefacts must > > be monitored and recorded, and if decay occurs action taken. > > Conservation 101, first day of class. > Certainly in the UK no cash in 99% of the cases except for a small number of sites. > -- > Will > From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 12:33:32 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:33:32 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <94F2C6C7-AE08-4D34-A81A-85813AB3BFA6@me.com> Message-ID: I did run across the Computer Conservation Society in the UK. The bottom of their links page looks to have some good sources: http://www.computerconservationsociety.org/links.htm -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-12, at 1:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The problem is that the document does not take the effects of leaving it idle into account. > > That specific document*, yes - but I am sure with a bit more Google > you can find studies concerning semiconductor shelf life as well. > (find it yourselves) > > From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 12:38:40 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:38:40 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <94F2C6C7-AE08-4D34-A81A-85813AB3BFA6@me.com> Message-ID: <9CFEC023-B2DD-46ED-892B-8F9FDA8140D5@me.com> Just wanted to add, this is an excellent article by Doron Swade: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res01.htm#f -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-12, at 1:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The problem is that the document does not take the effects of leaving it idle into account. > > That specific document*, yes - but I am sure with a bit more Google > you can find studies concerning semiconductor shelf life as well. > (find it yourselves) > >> How else are you to compare the effects of running the machine vs. leaving it off > > Well, having a machine that was taken from active service and then > placed in a museum would probably be a pretty good control subject. > There, you get the history of a machine, with a portion where it is in > everyday active service, then a clear demarcation where that active > service stops. > >> If nothing else, the machine still has mechanical parts. When not run, these parts seize and corrode. > > Part of the art and science of conservation deals with this. And in a > proper museum environment, corrosion is very much slowed down. > >> That I think is a matter of debate. A reboot can undo many changes. It remains to be seen the effects on the hardware in their totality. > > Historic fabric can not be mended. > >> I'm not hating them. > > Not you, but many on this list are. > >> I think both approaches are important. My main point is that this isn't an easy question to answer. Mistakes are going to be made, it's an impossibility to avoid them. We have more than a century of conserving ancient artifacts under our belts, and we're still learning how best to preserve them - computers are no different. > > I also think that both approaches are good. But the idea is to > actually TAKE both approaches, and value them. > >> I just think that we can't afford to cut ourselves off from the software component of a system. Emulators are helpful, but emulators have to come from somewhere. They come from studying running machines, not static displays. > > Well, given time, I think there will be a decent emulator for almost > every significant computer system out there. SimH, dtCyber, MAME, and > the list goes on... > > * Remember, this is just the first document I grabbed, in order to > fulfill the hungry. I did it to point out that the information is out > there and easy to find. I can not say if it is a great document to > show or not. > > -- > Will > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 12:43:29 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:43:29 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I believe that the loss of the knowledge on how to run these machines would > be more significant in the loss of access to data. That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the feel of the machine from the comfort of your own home. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 12:54:35 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:54:35 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) Message-ID: And I will add... > That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the feel > of the machine from the comfort of your own home. ...and no vintage machines are harmed. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 12 12:57:46 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:57:46 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 1:23 PM Subject: Re: To all with interest in preservation > That's a good question. While computers are ubiquitous, machines like the > 7090 are, if anything, even rarer than they were back then. They are very > different beasts from what we use today, or will use 20 years from now. > Same goes for punch cards. > > I'm inclined to believe that the experience of writing a program, punching > the cards, and running it will be just as magical. > Why would you think somebody who was not around during the time of punch cards would find that method of input magical? Do you think some kid who programs a huge GPS controlled harvester out in the huge farms would think hooking up a plow to an ox is magical? Most people go to museums and thank GOD they don't have to do things like they did back in the old days and look forward to new ways of doing things that will cut down the time and energy they need to expend (or better yet just let a machine do it all), that to them is magical. From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 13:19:54 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 14:19:54 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: While punch cards have been around for a long time, they were never ubiquitous. Why should someone alive now, using a punchcard for the first time, be any different from someone in 1950 using punchcards for the first time? The old machines are far enough removed from modern experience that they aren't very comparable to the average person. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-12, at 1:57 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 1:23 PM > Subject: Re: To all with interest in preservation > > >> That's a good question. While computers are ubiquitous, machines like the 7090 are, if anything, even rarer than they were back then. They are very different beasts from what we use today, or will use 20 years from now. Same goes for punch cards. >> >> I'm inclined to believe that the experience of writing a program, punching the cards, and running it will be just as magical. >> > > Why would you think somebody who was not around during the time of punch cards would find that method of input magical? Do you think some kid who programs a huge GPS controlled harvester out in the huge farms would think hooking up a plow to an ox is magical? Most people go to museums and thank GOD they don't have to do things like they did back in the old days and look forward to new ways of doing things that will cut down the time and energy they need to expend (or better yet just let a machine do it all), that to them is magical. > > From colineby at isallthat.com Sun Aug 12 13:23:22 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:23:22 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1344795802.4465.13.camel@hp0> Just as a point of trivia, the Boston Computer Museum is a direct ancestor of CHM. Look at CHMs internal history. Makes a fascinating read akin to the Israelites and Exodus. On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 18:28 +0100, Dave wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > > Sent: 12 August 2012 17:43 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: To all with interest in preservation > > > > > > > I think though that for many machine your recent comparison > > with Inca > > > (was it Inca?) pottery and other archaeology is not especially > > > relevant. > > > > Then you missed the point. And no, I was the one that > > compared it early archeologists trashing village sites to get > > to the kings, and how they destroyed sites that we really > > wish we had today. > > > > > I doubt > > > if we have any working drawings, or other written > > documentation on how > > > these machines work. > > > > Correct, and we wish we did. Archaeology is, honestly, mostly > > educated guesses on what little hard evidence we have. > > > > > For many computers such as the IBM 1130, the PDP-8 and even the ICT > > > 1301 we have copious documentation, drawings, records, > > photographs and > > > software. We understand the technology and contraction of these > > > machines in intimate detail. > > > > No we do not. > > > > Certain information normally does not show up in the > > information you list. Specifically, things related to the > > actually manufacture of the machines. Very little > > documentation points out how the machines were built, > > preferred vendors, subtle (or not so subtle) design flaws, > > normal wear during expected lifetime, and so forth. For > > example - can you tell me what brands of tubes IBM used in > > their mainframes, and why RCA somehow was dropped from their > > preferred vendors list? Why did Tung Sol and GE beat them? > > And who made the tube sockets? Amphenol? EBY? AMP? Cinch? Who > > was preferred there? > > > > Who cares, you ask - such a minor issue, right? > > > > Well, this is where you missed the point. We do not know what > > future scholars will be interested in studying with these > > machines. In the future, when the architecture and software > > of some machine are pretty well studied out, there will be > > people looking to dig deeper, and learn in depth about things > > today we see as mundane. But, by using machines, you will > > destroy somethings that could be very valuable evidence to > > these future scholars. > > > > I believe that the loss of the knowledge on how to run these machines would > be more significant in the loss of access to data. > > > > Given sufficient funds we could, as with the Manchester Mk1 (Baby) > > > produce modern replicas of these machines. Some such as the > > IBM 1130, > > > would be expensive to replicate as it used IBM SLT "Hybrid" > > circuits > > > and cartridge disks, but I am sure there is enough information > > > available to clone the thing. > > > > Clones are never perfect in the real world. These clones > > would not be able to capture many of the subtle nuances of > > the manufacturing processes of old. In many cases, clone > > makers take shortcuts, and may not document these properly, > > nor understand the consequences. > > > > > I would concede this point if care was taken to preserve > > machines that > > > were not run. However in my experience machines that are > > not used, and > > > considered as "un-useable" are often not looked after either. > > > > Sort of like most machines in private hands, right? You are > > including those in your survey, right? > > > > I would say most machines in private hands, but in this world of limited > funds and resources personal preservation is the only way many things will > be retained. > > > Yes, there are some museums that do not take care of things, > > just like many collectors. But, if you look at the big > > players in the computer museum field, you will find that they > > keep their holdings in secure, climate controlled areas, and > > as resources become available, proper stabilization is done. > > > > But their seems to be this problem that the museums that are > > not caring for their holdings somehow give ALL museums this > > bad reputation. That is not right. > > > > In my experience of travelling the world this seems to be the case. I have > never visited a museum where the on-display but non-operational artefacts > appear to be given any significant care and attention. Some of the places I > have visited have, such as the Boston Computer Museum have closed, but > others are still open. > > The problem is that, as we agree, preserving a computer isn't trivial or > cheap, there isn't the money. Given that volunteer staff are hard to come > by, yet they are the mainstay of preservation in many museums, what > incentive is there for any one to participate in a museum where everything > is "dead", and preserved just in case some one wants to come along later and > worrying about the type of valve in it, or investigate the historic timings > of DTL logic. Realistically the only way that 99% of the computers in > museums get any attention is when they are used. > > Personally if I was asked to mothball machines I would want a proper salary > whereas at present my labours are free(ish). > > > > I believe that it > > > needs to be an active process and the condition of the > > artefacts must > > > be monitored and recorded, and if decay occurs action taken. > > > > Conservation 101, first day of class. > > > > Certainly in the UK no cash in 99% of the cases except for a small number of > sites. > > > -- > > Will > > > > > -- Colin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 13:26:13 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 14:26:13 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Why would you think somebody who was not around during the time of punch > cards would find that method of input magical? Do you think some kid who > programs a huge GPS controlled harvester out in the huge farms would think > hooking up a plow to an ox is magical? Ironically, one of the *very* recent last uses of punch cards was for the USDA, for cotton bales. -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 13:27:01 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:27:01 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5027F575.80208@gmail.com> On 12/08/2012 18:43, William Donzelli wrote: >> I believe that the loss of the knowledge on how to run these machines would >> be more significant in the loss of access to data. > That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the feel > of the machine from the comfort of your own home. > > -- > Will No you can't. You can't learn how to load a card reader, disk pack or even line printer paper on any simulator I know of. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 12 13:45:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, William Donzelli wrote: > Ironically, one of the *very* recent last uses of punch cards was for > the USDA, for cotton bales. Our college system used them for years as blank stock for printing small forms, such as "ADD Cards", etc. Then they switched over to three part forms. When they did, they dumpstered ALL of the blank cards, AND came around to the CIS department and hauled away our cabinets of punched cards (mostly 1620 and 1401 software) over our objections. They were conscientious. One instructor was using some card file cabinets for storing ISA 5150 cards. They hauled away one of his cabinets full, but dumped the contents of the other one onto the floor when they took it away. They later tried to fire him for retrieving things from dumpsters. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 2.00 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 13:20:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:20:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5026CCA6.6040801@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at Aug 11, 12 10:20:38 pm Message-ID: > My personal opinion is that something local and unusual would be nice. > As we are in Manchester, for a long time one of the spiritual homes of Sure. However, I am not convinced (and this is very much a personal opinion) that a modern macnine running an emulator is 'spiritually' close to the real iron. > ICL, and as there appear to be no ICL1900's left running anywhere, i > would haev thought that Dave Holdsworth's ICL1900 emulator with George > would be a most appropriate machine... It used to live at > www.icl1900.co.uk but that appears to be down... Did those ICL machiens use ASCII? The reason I ask is that I was given a data logger system that outputed the loggesd data on paper tape, and it came from a company that used an ICL mainframe. The chracter code in the data logger was set by solderign diodes to form a 16*8 ROM, and the pattern when I got it was nowhere near ASCII. [I changed it when I got the logger, ASCII being a lot more use to me than an ICL code, but I probably have a record of the original pattern somewhere] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 13:28:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:28:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120811214316.GA2406@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Aug 11, 12 11:43:16 pm Message-ID: > > I think you have to consider what damage could be done. And that depeneds > > -- a lot -- on the artefact. A vitage aeroplane is likely to be totally > > destroyed if it crashes, so you probably don't want to fly it very often. > > The local flying club begs to differ: > > http://airforcecenter.ch/index.php?id=25&L=1 > > IIRC there are 8 airworthy Junkers Ju-52 still around. The Airforce > Center D??bendorf (near Z??rich) has 6 of them and they are actively flying > them quite a bit. There regular tourist tours around Switzerland and you > can even charter them, e.g. for an event. Well, if they're preapred to fly an essentially irreplacable aircraft, whioch could be totally destroyed if soemthing fials (of course they do a lot of checks -- they have to by law -- but things can still fail), and since running the aeroplane will casue wear on moving parts (and thus damage the artefact) then IMHO a computer museum has no excvuse whatsover not to run a much more oommon classic computer ,at least from time to time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 13:31:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:31:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Aug 11, 12 11:00:29 pm Message-ID: > > {begin pedantry} I'll butt in and say, yes twinax is serial, but no > not in a RS232 serial terminal way. Twinax (twin-axial) only Exactly my (pedantic) point. Not all serial interfaces are RS232, not all are asynchronous. [Just about the only bit of the 'USB' name that's right is 'serial'. I get very confused when soembody asks for a USB to serial converter...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 13:41:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:41:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Aug 11, 12 11:00:29 pm Message-ID: [Tiwnax is a subest of serial] > But unlike typical serial comms, it is a bus topology. So not really > an intersecting set in a meaningful compatibility kind of way.{end > pedantry} Looking around me, I see : Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels Synchronous seiral interfaces using RS232 levels Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels I2C interfaces CAN bus The Commodore serial interface bus to printers and disk drives Trasnputer links Asynchornous current loop interfaces 10MBps ethernet (thinwire and twisted pair) HPIL interfaces HP-HIL Interfaces PC-like keyboard interfaces DEC LK100 and LK201 keyboard interfaces Assorted other bit-seiral keyboard interfaces Even a USB port (on the TV, to update its firmware] _All_ of those are bit-serial interfaces. Which do a 'typical' seiral interface? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 13:47:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:47:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Aug 11, 12 08:29:45 pm Message-ID: > For a normal MMJ to MMJ cable, I'd suggest starting with a 10ft cable. > That seemed to be the most versatile length and was the most popular > length that I used to sell in my eBay store. The DE9 to MMJ cables I sold > were slightly longer at 14ft, which people really seemed to like (I sold > 100s of them). I owuld gues a lot of people could solder the other end of the cable to a DE9, DB25, or whatever, it's getting and crimping the MMJ that is the problem. So a long-issh cable (3m or so) with an MMJ on one end only would be useful. The purchaser cuts it to length and solders the right conenctor on the other end. My cheap-ish Multicomp (Farnell own-brand) crimp tool claims to do 'DEC plugs'. I've never tried it, and have no idea which make of MMJ it likes. It has woreked fine on every 4p4c, 6p4c, 6p6c aed 8p8c I've thrown at it though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 14:14:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:14:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 12, 12 01:43:29 pm Message-ID: > > > I believe that the loss of the knowledge on how to run these machines would > > be more significant in the loss of access to data. > > That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the feel > of the machine from the comfort of your own home. Every time I'be both seem an emulator of a chassic machine (runinng on a friend's machine, obvious) and also run the rela hardware myself, I feel the emultor doens't come close to the experinece of actually running the classic computer. Maybe that wil lchange, but I doubt it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 13:57:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:57:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120812122241.GB2406@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Aug 12, 12 02:22:41 pm Message-ID: > Well, the floor plan for a first generation SPARC cpu was hanging in an > office in a certain east german university in the year 1989. Then certain > changes happened and the massive reverse engineering efforts there stopped. It is certainly possible to reverse-engineer a _working_ chip. However, I beleive there are failure modes that would make it impossible in principle to reverse-engineer a defective chip. So if you find a machine where some ASIC has failed, you may not be able to reverse-engineer the old one, not with any tools. The time to do reverse-engineering (of chips or compulete machiens) is while said devices are sill operational. Alas doing so can risk damaging the device in quesiton... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 12 14:08:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:08:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 12, 12 12:43:29 pm Message-ID: > Certain information normally does not show up in the information you > list. Specifically, things related to the actually manufacture of the > machines. Very little documentation points out how the machines were > built, preferred vendors, subtle (or not so subtle) design flaws, > normal wear during expected lifetime, and so forth. For example - can > you tell me what brands of tubes IBM used in their mainframes, and why > RCA somehow was dropped from their preferred vendors list? Why did > Tung Sol and GE beat them? And who made the tube sockets? Amphenol? > EBY? AMP? Cinch? Who was preferred there? Quite how running a machine destroys such infromation is beyond me. I guess you're arguing that if a compoennt fails, then it will be replaced, and thus what was there originally is lost. Firstly, you have no way of knowign that hte machine _when you get it_ is as it left the factory. Components will fail over the life of the machine, they will be repalced. Perhaps not for an IBM, but certainly for DEC and HP, a lot of techncial users did 'self maintenance' They will have fitted whatever was to hand that works in a lot of cases. Certianyl nto a part from the 'right vendor'. Secondly, If you are running the machine _now_ and ap art fails, yuo rpobably do repalce it with somthing non-original. But you log the fact, you log what the old part was exactly ,and you keep said part, tagged with where it came from. Then in the future you still ahve that infromation. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 14:21:01 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:21:01 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5028021D.5000109@gmail.com> On 12/08/2012 19:20, Tony Duell wrote: >> My personal opinion is that something local and unusual would be nice. >> As we are in Manchester, for a long time one of the spiritual homes of > Sure. > > However, I am not convinced (and this is very much a personal opinion) > that a modern macnine running an emulator is 'spiritually' close to the > real iron. > >> ICL, and as there appear to be no ICL1900's left running anywhere, i >> would haev thought that Dave Holdsworth's ICL1900 emulator with George >> would be a most appropriate machine... It used to live at >> www.icl1900.co.uk but that appears to be down... > Did those ICL machiens use ASCII? The reason I ask is that I was given a > data logger system that outputed the loggesd data on paper tape, and it > came from a company that used an ICL mainframe. The chracter code in the > data logger was set by solderign diodes to form a 16*8 ROM, and the > pattern when I got it was nowhere near ASCII. > > [I changed it when I got the logger, ASCII being a lot more use to me > than an ICL code, but I probably have a record of the original pattern > somewhere] I am pretty sure they are 6-bit character set machines, but I never used one in anger... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From cclist at sytse.net Sun Aug 12 14:25:43 2012 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:25:43 +0200 Subject: Anyone have printouts for KKTA/KKTB 11/44 MEM MGMT tests? In-Reply-To: <5027D8A0.8050900@heeltoe.com> References: <5027D8A0.8050900@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <201208122125.43768.cclist@sytse.net> The KKTB listing is on bitsavers, under xxdp -> fiche_200dpi. The kkua for the unibus map is there too. Both were tremendously helpful to me. On Sunday, August 12, 2012 18:24:00 Brad Parker wrote: > Just curious if anyone has printouts (or scans) of the PDP-11/44 memory > management diagnostics KKTA/KKTB > > KKTA 11/44 MEM MGMT PRT A > KKTB 11/44 MEM MGMT PRT B > > KKTAB1.BIC xx-xxx-xx 3369 27 3395 0 > KKTBD0.BIC xx-xxx-xx 3396 30 3425 0 > > I have the binaries from xxdp images but no listing... > > -brad From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 15:03:39 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:03:39 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <5027F575.80208@gmail.com> References: <5027F575.80208@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the feel >> of the machine from the comfort of your own home. >> >> -- >> Will > > No you can't. You can't learn how to load a card reader, disk pack or even > line printer paper on any simulator I know of. There is a word of mine you may have missed. Look between "get" and "of". Please reread. -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 15:14:05 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:14:05 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50280E8D.2000408@gmail.com> On 12/08/2012 20:14, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I believe that the loss of the knowledge on how to run these machines would >>> be more significant in the loss of access to data. >> That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the feel >> of the machine from the comfort of your own home. > Every time I'be both seem an emulator of a chassic machine (runinng on a > friend's machine, obvious) and also run the rela hardware myself, I feel > the emultor doens't come close to the experinece of actually running the > classic computer. > > Maybe that wil lchange, but I doubt it... I agree, although running Hercules on a real 3270 comes close to the end user experience, but its then an artefact that I am using. I was thinking of using the Raspberry PI to try and get closer to the real machine feel, but I would need to manufacture, or otherwise obtain, a keyboard with 24 PF keys and in the UK they cost almost as much as a real 3270... > -tony -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From markwgreen at rogers.com Sun Aug 12 15:40:33 2012 From: markwgreen at rogers.com (Mark Green) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:40:33 -0400 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 Message-ID: <000301cd78ca$b88519f0$298f4dd0$@rogers.com> > Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 09:39:31 -0600 > From: Richard > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 > Message-ID: > > > In article <20120812105727.2a3ad798.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, > Jochen Kunz writes: > > > On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:53:46 -0600 > > Richard wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have one of these boards? > > Yes, at least one PXG+ and IIRC a PXG that's the RAM modules missing. > > I'd like to see some high resolution close-up pictures if possible! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) I have one of the PXG models in a Decstation 5000/200 up at the cottage, I can try to get a picture of the next time I'm at the cottage. The PXG uses an i860 for 3D geometry and a pixel planes chip for 2D raster fill. A pixel planes chip is relatively easy to design, even with primitive VLSI tools. I built one in the mid 1980s using a gate array technology that we had free access to. Once you have the cell for a single pixel it's just a matter of duplication and adding some interface logic around the edge of the chip. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 12 15:43:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:43:11 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2012 at 13:54, William Donzelli wrote: > And I will add... > > > That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the > > feel of the machine from the comfort of your own home. Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter collectors, but I've not seen a lot of word processor collections. A working 7090 and peripherals might have some appeal in the same sort of way that a steam locomotive captures the imagination. Not more powerful or efficient or faster than an modern diesel-electric, but very impressive with the steam and noise of it all. I doubt that many of the younger folk viewing such an exhibition could tell you the procedure to make a telephone call between, say, Gleason, Wisconsin and Miami, Florida in 1959 (much less between Gnaw Bone, Indiana and Horta, Portugal.) --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 12 15:54:37 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201208122054.QAA22268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Every time I'be both seem an emulator of a chassic machine [...] and > also run the rela hardware myself, I feel the emultor doens't come > close to the experinece of actually running the classic computer. In some respects, of course, it can't. In other respects, it can't until VR technology gets a lot better. However, they serve useful purposes nevertheless. In particular, they can give more of a taste of the experience than most people are likely to get any other way. And to someone who's got the interest potential but nothing to spark it, it can be that spark. And, for a hands-on museum, a replica panel backed by an emulator will be close enough for a lot of people, better in that it's a lot easier to fix and/or replace if it gets heavy and/or careless use (I'm thinking schoolkids). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 15:58:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:58:52 -0400 Subject: IBM terminals (shame on Richard) In-Reply-To: <50276FDA.4080905@gorge.net> References: <8d84f2e6-8a07-4605-b61b-d0f008a5475b@email.android.com> <50276FDA.4080905@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5028190C.8010100@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 04:56 AM, jimpdavis wrote: > I remember the coiffed, pert lady typing on the IBM terminal in the 60's > ads. > But networks, email and database access weren't invented until the late > 80's according to the visionaries and pseudo historians.. > I guess BBN and Berkeley invented everything we now use daily. Don't > even get me started about IPV6. Right there with you on that. People are clueless. That in itself is not the problem...there's nothing wrong or dishonorable about not knowing something. Where it becomes wrong is when they make an assumption, then righteously proclaim that it's correct, when anyone with half a brain knows they're dead wrong. This is rampant these days. > Jim D. > Sorry, My Mom passed today and I'm not clear (too Scientology-ie), > Collected? rational, sober? Fuck it. Oh my. I'm so sorry to hear this. :-( My best wishes to you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From chrise at pobox.com Sun Aug 12 17:12:02 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 17:12:02 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/25/2012 at 10:45PM -0400), Charles Dickman wrote: > On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > > If I desolder these and read them, do we really have use for the bits? > > > > If we'll archive them because there's no archive already anywhere else, > > that's good enough reason for me. > > > > > My original request for the listing was to aid in debugging an RX02 > emulator that I wrote. I have successfully extracted the code from (4) PROMs on an RX02 controller board. There was a slight delay because I had to repair my Data I/O System 19 and Unipak before I could do it. Thanks to Vince and Jack for their help with Data I/O parts. Where should I put the four image files? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 12 17:19:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 15:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120812151732.F22044@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Looking around me, I see : > Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels > Synchronous seiral interfaces using RS232 levels > Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels > I2C interfaces > CAN bus > The Commodore serial interface bus to printers and disk drives > Trasnputer links > Asynchornous current loop interfaces > 10MBps ethernet (thinwire and twisted pair) > HPIL interfaces > HP-HIL Interfaces > PC-like keyboard interfaces > DEC LK100 and LK201 keyboard interfaces > Assorted other bit-seiral keyboard interfaces > Even a USB port (on the TV, to update its firmware] YOU have a USB port! (My CAR has one (Prius-V)) Although ANALOG, isn't a POTs line serial? Although not electronic, aren't most cashier queues serial? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 12 17:44:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 15:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120812154354.P22044@shell.lmi.net> If we are going to talk about simulators, then I want to hear Gene Buckle's opinions! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 17:49:45 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:49:45 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120812151732.F22044@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 12 August 2012 23:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Looking around me, I see : > > Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels > > Synchronous seiral interfaces using RS232 levels > > Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels Did you mean current loop? > > I2C interfaces > > CAN bus > > The Commodore serial interface bus to printers and disk drives > > Trasnputer links Asynchornous current loop interfaces > > 10MBps ethernet (thinwire and twisted pair) > > HPIL interfaces > > HP-HIL Interfaces > > PC-like keyboard interfaces > > DEC LK100 and LK201 keyboard interfaces > > Assorted other bit-seiral keyboard interfaces > > Even a USB port (on the TV, to update its firmware] > > YOU have a USB port! > (My CAR has one (Prius-V)) > > Although ANALOG, isn't a POTs line serial? I guess so, as is ISDN but its multiplexed... > Although not electronic, aren't most cashier queues serial? These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre Channel and FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial interfaces tend to become the interfacee of choice. Dave P.S. I assume Token Ring and Cambridge Ring are also serial... PPS And whilst the Terminal/Controller interface on a 3270 may be serial, the controller itself may interface to the host using the IBM Bus+Tag channel interface which is a parallel interface.... From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 12 17:50:15 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 17:50:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> For a normal MMJ to MMJ cable, I'd suggest starting with a 10ft cable. >> That seemed to be the most versatile length and was the most popular >> length that I used to sell in my eBay store. The DE9 to MMJ cables I sold >> were slightly longer at 14ft, which people really seemed to like (I sold >> 100s of them). > > I owuld gues a lot of people could solder the other end of the cable to a > DE9, DB25, or whatever, it's getting and crimping the MMJ that is the > problem. So a long-issh cable (3m or so) with an MMJ on one end only > would be useful. The purchaser cuts it to length and solders the right > conenctor on the other end. That's why I first began making those MMJ (6P6C offset) to 6P6C standard plug cables. People asked me if I could make cables that could be used with 6P6C to DE-9 or DB-25 rewirable adapters. I later had enough demand for them that I began pre-wiring 6P6C DE-9 adapters as H8751-J work-alike adapters and pairing them up with a cable. These were moderately cheap for me to make when buying the materials in bulk and they sold for $15-20 in my eBay store (which covered my costs, including the stuff people often overlook such as the eBay listing fees and shipping supplies...that is until eBay raised their fees through the roof). I actually had a hard time keeping up with initial demand for those cables and shipped them all over the world. Note that those DE-9 connectors used crimped pins (AMP) and not soldered/spliced wires. They are a pain to assemble (even with AMP's own d-sub pin tooling), but I had zero complaints or returns for defects or bad connections. http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/H8571-J_BC16E_work_alike.jpg http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/H8571-J_BC16E_work_alike_unfinished_1.jpg http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/H8571-J_BC16E_work_alike_unfinished_2.jpg > My cheap-ish Multicomp (Farnell own-brand) crimp tool claims to do 'DEC > plugs'. I've never tried it, and have no idea which make of MMJ it likes. > It has woreked fine on every 4p4c, 6p4c, 6p6c aed 8p8c I've thrown at it > though. Even without seeing it, I would say with 99% certainty that your crimp tool handles the WE/SS variety and not the AMP/Tyco type plugs. Most all the "generic" plugs on the market use the WE/SS die nest form, so unless someone is making these kinds of cables regularly, they may never even run across the AMP type plugs. That said, AMP plugs have some benefits (such as the double strain reliefs on the 8P8C plugs) and there are tons of their connectors on the surplus market. You can also be certain that when they say they have 50 microns of gold plating over nickel, over phosphor bronze, that that's what you are really getting. Some of the really cheap Chinese-made plugs on the other hand are just gold flash over brass, and you can pick these out pretty easily when you unplug a cable and find that the contacts have corroded green right through the gold plating. This is why I'm so picky when it comes to using decent quality modular plugs and contacts, even though to some people it might seem as though I'm being a little _too_ picky ;) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 12 17:58:53 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> References: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <201208122258.SAA23342@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre > Channel and FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial interfaces tend > to become the interfacee of choice. At least until someone notices "hey, if we run another 7 data pairs, we can get 8 times the data rate for free!". And the cycle of reincarnation continues.... Mouse From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 18:00:28 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:00:28 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> References: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <5028358C.9090909@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 06:49 PM, Dave wrote: > These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre Channel and > FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial interfaces tend to become the > interfacee of choice. Indeed, PCIe is serial. The amazing advancements in LVD signaling and high-speed PCB design have given us a lot of interesting new capabilities. The PCI bus evolved FROM parallel TO serial to gain more speed, whoda thunk it? ;) It turned out that, in the end, skew along parallel buses became a bigger problem than pushing the speeds into the GHz range. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 18:23:39 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:23:39 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208122258.SAA23342@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 12 August 2012 23:59 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > > > These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre > > Channel and FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial > interfaces tend > > to become the interfacee of choice. > > At least until someone notices "hey, if we run another 7 data > pairs, we can get 8 times the data rate for free!". And the > cycle of reincarnation continues.... The problem is that in general you can't. You can have eight separate links but you can't have them carrying a byte stream, one bit per link. You can't make all the links are identical. This means as speeds increase the bits arrive at different times, so you can't clock them out a byte at a time. You also get cross talk between the links. That's why we have gone SATA rather than PATA. http://www.ithinkibrokeit.co.uk/articles/sata-101/page2.php > > Mouse > Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 18:31:32 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:31:32 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AEB9C72-0897-4FA5-8D97-B7E9989B5054@me.com> And much reverse engineering of silicon requires access to the silicon. This means eating off the plastic housing with acid. Very impressive things can be done, and I would wager that if you passed a sufficiently interesting chip to a guy like Bunnie Huang he'd see about reverse engineering it. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-08-12, at 2:57 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Well, the floor plan for a first generation SPARC cpu was hanging in an >> office in a certain east german university in the year 1989. Then certain >> changes happened and the massive reverse engineering efforts there stopped. > > It is certainly possible to reverse-engineer a _working_ chip. However, I > beleive there are failure modes that would make it impossible in principle > to reverse-engineer a defective chip. So if you find a machine where some > ASIC has failed, you may not be able to reverse-engineer the old one, not > with any tools. > > The time to do reverse-engineering (of chips or compulete machiens) is > while said devices are sill operational. Alas doing so can risk damaging > the device in quesiton... > > -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 18:33:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:33:26 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 07:23 PM, Dave wrote: >>> These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre >>> Channel and FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial >> interfaces tend >>> to become the interfacee of choice. >> >> At least until someone notices "hey, if we run another 7 data >> pairs, we can get 8 times the data rate for free!". And the >> cycle of reincarnation continues.... > > The problem is that in general you can't. You can have eight separate links > but you can't have them carrying a byte stream, one bit per link. You can't > make all the links are identical. This means as speeds increase the bits > arrive at different times, so you can't clock them out a byte at a time. You > also get cross talk between the links. That's why we have gone SATA rather > than PATA. Well that was one of the reasons. ;) ATA/IDE was one of the worst-designed interconnects in the history of this industry. Even the PC weeniez knew it had to go. SATA, for all of its faults, is a godsend! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 18:33:53 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:33:53 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120812151732.F22044@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120812151732.F22044@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3A8D07FD-AE14-4C8A-991A-75393AD1EFBB@me.com> As for AF and RF transmission lines, I think that very much depends on your definition of "serial". Most such protocols aren't just mark/space. An analog color TV signal, for example, needs about 12MHz of bandwidth. That equates to a fair bit of data moving at the same time, yet portions are still serial. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-08-12, at 6:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> Looking around me, I see : >> Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels >> Synchronous seiral interfaces using RS232 levels >> Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels >> I2C interfaces >> CAN bus >> The Commodore serial interface bus to printers and disk drives >> Trasnputer links >> Asynchornous current loop interfaces >> 10MBps ethernet (thinwire and twisted pair) >> HPIL interfaces >> HP-HIL Interfaces >> PC-like keyboard interfaces >> DEC LK100 and LK201 keyboard interfaces >> Assorted other bit-seiral keyboard interfaces >> Even a USB port (on the TV, to update its firmware] > > YOU have a USB port! > (My CAR has one (Prius-V)) > > Although ANALOG, isn't a POTs line serial? > Although not electronic, aren't most cashier queues serial? > > > From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 18:38:52 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:38:52 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5028358C.9090909@neurotica.com> References: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> <5028358C.9090909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Once you hit the gigahertz range, capacitance between traces can become a huge problem too. You can get weird things resonating, phase noise(IIRC) and the dreaded crosstalk. I'm no expert on microwave, mind. I spend most of my efforts right now around 2 meters. Frankly, both my father and I were astounded that they made a 1GHz chip work. We thought it would never happen... Sent from my iPhone On 2012-08-12, at 7:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/12/2012 06:49 PM, Dave wrote: >> These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre Channel and >> FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial interfaces tend to become the >> interfacee of choice. > > Indeed, PCIe is serial. The amazing advancements in LVD signaling and > high-speed PCB design have given us a lot of interesting new > capabilities. The PCI bus evolved FROM parallel TO serial to gain more > speed, whoda thunk it? ;) It turned out that, in the end, skew along > parallel buses became a bigger problem than pushing the speeds into the > GHz range. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 18:49:53 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:49:53 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <1AEB9C72-0897-4FA5-8D97-B7E9989B5054@me.com> References: <1AEB9C72-0897-4FA5-8D97-B7E9989B5054@me.com> Message-ID: > And much reverse engineering of silicon requires access to the silicon. This means eating off the plastic housing with acid. Very impressive things can be done, and I would wager that if you passed a sufficiently interesting chip to a guy like Bunnie Huang he'd see about reverse engineering it. There are indeed firms that can reverse engineer chips - even dead ones. One is Taeus International in Colorado. These guys mostly do work for clients looking for stolen technology. http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0328/068.html -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 12 19:05:21 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 17:05:21 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <1AEB9C72-0897-4FA5-8D97-B7E9989B5054@me.com> Message-ID: <502844C1.8080001@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/12 4:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> And much reverse engineering of silicon requires access to the silicon. This means eating off the plastic housing with acid. Very impressive things can be done, and I would wager that if you passed a sufficiently interesting chip to a guy like Bunnie Huang he'd see about reverse engineering it. > > There are indeed firms that can reverse engineer chips - even dead > ones. One is Taeus International in Colorado. These guys mostly do > work for clients looking for stolen technology. > > http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0328/068.html > http://visual6502.org/ is probably more relevant to this discussion From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 12 19:13:47 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...run eight parallel data pairs...] >> The problem is that in general you can't [as speeds rise, skew and >> crosstalk get bad]. That's why we have gone SATA rather than PATA. > Well that was one of the reasons. ;) ATA/IDE was one of the > worst-designed interconnects in the history of this industry. Even > the PC weeniez knew it had to go. SATA, for all of its faults, is a > godsend! A godsend...to hardware makers and others who benefit from forced obsolescence. There was a perfectly good alternative to ATA/IDE, and has been for ages. It's called SCSI. It is, and was at the time SATA was introduced, a mature, proven technology with a huge installed base. I trust you'll forgive a certain amount of cynical belief on my part that forced incompatbility in both directions of both hosts and disks was a major part of what drove the imposition of SATA on customers. That and NIH are the only excuses I can think of for it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 19:20:25 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:20:25 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: The problem is that SCSI never has been cheap, and it still used those accursed ribbon cables. I've spent hours fighting with those cables trying to get them to fit... Sent from my iPhone On 2012-08-12, at 8:13 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> [...run eight parallel data pairs...] >>> The problem is that in general you can't [as speeds rise, skew and >>> crosstalk get bad]. That's why we have gone SATA rather than PATA. >> Well that was one of the reasons. ;) ATA/IDE was one of the >> worst-designed interconnects in the history of this industry. Even >> the PC weeniez knew it had to go. SATA, for all of its faults, is a >> godsend! > > A godsend...to hardware makers and others who benefit from forced > obsolescence. > > There was a perfectly good alternative to ATA/IDE, and has been for > ages. It's called SCSI. It is, and was at the time SATA was > introduced, a mature, proven technology with a huge installed base. > > I trust you'll forgive a certain amount of cynical belief on my part > that forced incompatbility in both directions of both hosts and disks > was a major part of what drove the imposition of SATA on customers. > That and NIH are the only excuses I can think of for it. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 19:21:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:21:38 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 08:13 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> [...run eight parallel data pairs...] >>> The problem is that in general you can't [as speeds rise, skew and >>> crosstalk get bad]. That's why we have gone SATA rather than PATA. >> Well that was one of the reasons. ;) ATA/IDE was one of the >> worst-designed interconnects in the history of this industry. Even >> the PC weeniez knew it had to go. SATA, for all of its faults, is a >> godsend! > > A godsend...to hardware makers and others who benefit from forced > obsolescence. I'm talking about its technical implementation, not the business implications. ATA was very much at the "end of its road" in terms of its design by, say, 1993 or so. We saw how long it lasted after that, for no good reason. > There was a perfectly good alternative to ATA/IDE, and has been for > ages. It's called SCSI. It is, and was at the time SATA was > introduced, a mature, proven technology with a huge installed base. Absolutely. There are several other notable foibles of that industry...the very existence of (IBM's proprietary) SSA and SAS, which are both completely pointless in the face of FibreChannel...they are all just different physical layers for SCSI. Complete and utter stupidity, combined with greed, is what gives us this garbage. > I trust you'll forgive a certain amount of cynical belief on my part > that forced incompatbility in both directions of both hosts and disks > was a major part of what drove the imposition of SATA on customers. > That and NIH are the only excuses I can think of for it. So you'd prefer to be stuck with the continued existence of IDE? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 12 19:23:00 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:23:00 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <201208122054.QAA22268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201208122054.QAA22268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <9991401B-9DE0-491A-80AC-F5B543E6BC65@me.com> Grilled-cheese disk pack, anyone?:) Sent from my iPhone On 2012-08-12, at 4:54 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Every time I'be both seem an emulator of a chassic machine [...] and >> also run the rela hardware myself, I feel the emultor doens't come >> close to the experinece of actually running the classic computer. > > In some respects, of course, it can't. In other respects, it can't > until VR technology gets a lot better. > > However, they serve useful purposes nevertheless. In particular, they > can give more of a taste of the experience than most people are likely > to get any other way. And to someone who's got the interest potential > but nothing to spark it, it can be that spark. > > And, for a hands-on museum, a replica panel backed by an emulator will > be close enough for a lot of people, better in that it's a lot easier > to fix and/or replace if it gets heavy and/or careless use (I'm > thinking schoolkids). > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 19:32:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:32:18 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 08:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > The problem is that SCSI never has been cheap, and it still used > those accursed ribbon cables. I've spent hours fighting with those > cables trying to get them to fit... "Not cheap" could have been very easily solved by the industry, but they chose not to do it. And there are several kinds of SCSI that don't use ribbon cables. SSA, SAS, FibreChannel, and FireWire come to mind. All SCSI, just on different transport mechanisms. We don't even need all of THOSE serial varieties of SCSI, but we have them. We certainly don't need SATA, but we have it anyway. Damn suits and their greed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 12 19:44:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 17:44:48 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50284E00.9080206@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/12 5:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/12/2012 08:13 PM, Mouse wrote: > Absolutely. There are several other notable foibles of that > industry...the very existence of (IBM's proprietary) SSA and SAS, which > are both completely pointless in the face of FibreChannel...they are all > just different physical layers for SCSI. > You haven't been paying much attention to SAS recently, then. They actually did something intelligent and made the interconnect common between SAS and SATA. The file servers I spec'ed for the CHM digital repository are all SAS backplanes with SATA drives in them. If you dig around for the few pictures of the current Internet Archive servers, this is exactly what they did as well. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 12 19:47:16 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:47:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208130047.UAA24216@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I trust you'll forgive a certain amount of cynical belief on my part >> that forced incompatbility in both directions of both hosts and >> disks was a major part of what drove the imposition of SATA on >> customers. That and NIH are the only excuses I can think of for it. > So you'd prefer to be stuck with the continued existence of IDE? ;) Between the former status quo and the current rush to SATA? That's a close call, and which one I prefer will probably change depending on my mood and what's most recently aggravated me. At the moment, I think I'd prefer the historical state. What I'd _prefer_ would be for hardware makers to have rolled out SCSI interfaces on their boards and disks in much the same way that they've recently been rolling out SATA. Hm, that may actually be another excuse: if they'd gone SCSI, there's the danger people would have demanded the sort of performance and reliability SCSI has historically delivered. With a New! and Improved! but completely incompatible interface, they can continue shipping cheap crap and not getting called on it because there isn't the historical record that says it doesn't have to be cheap crap. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 19:54:36 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:54:36 -0400 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have stacks of them. Picked 'em up when a local DEC shop was closing up, and, while I was a day late for the liquidation auction, I gave the cleanup guys a few pizzas and they let me take anything I wanted. Scored a whole bunch of these things, along with all kinds of cards out of various minis (including, i think, the complete logic boards for a 7000) I'll see if I can dig them up and snap some pics. On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have one of these boards? > > They are derived from research at UNC on Pixel Planes. > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From rrr_lopes at yahoo.com.br Sun Aug 12 19:54:48 2012 From: rrr_lopes at yahoo.com.br (ricardo lopes) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 17:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic HHC technical information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1344819288.48363.YahooMailNeo@web140402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hello Tony, That would be great! If somebody don't may you scan it and send by e-mail, please? Thank You! Ricardo > > > > Hello,=0A= > > =0A= > > I'm trying to understand the intriguing Panasonic HHC.=0A= > > Does somebody have additional technical information beside the contents of = > > the User's Manual?=0A= > > I'm particularlly searching for the SnapFORTH ROM image and manual, any har= > > dware schematics, and the expansion connector pinout.=0A= > I haev my own had-drawn schematics for the machine and the > printer/cassette interface. Of course they don't give any information for > the interals of the ASICs, but they might be a start. > > I can't remember if I have already sent them to somebody (Eric?) who > might have scanned them. If not, I can make a photocopy and post them out. > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 19:56:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:56:46 -0400 Subject: TO-263 footprint? Message-ID: <502850CE.1060201@neurotica.com> Hey folks! Would anyone happen to have a PCB footprint for a TO-263 package? I'm designing a circuit that will use an LM2577 switching regulator. I've checked on gedasymbols.org to no avail. I'm kinda surprised it's not in the standard library. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 19:59:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:59:11 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208130047.UAA24216@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> <201208130047.UAA24216@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5028515F.6000107@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 08:47 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> I trust you'll forgive a certain amount of cynical belief on my part >>> that forced incompatbility in both directions of both hosts and >>> disks was a major part of what drove the imposition of SATA on >>> customers. That and NIH are the only excuses I can think of for it. >> So you'd prefer to be stuck with the continued existence of IDE? ;) > > Between the former status quo and the current rush to SATA? That's a > close call, and which one I prefer will probably change depending on my > mood and what's most recently aggravated me. At the moment, I think > I'd prefer the historical state. > > What I'd _prefer_ would be for hardware makers to have rolled out SCSI > interfaces on their boards and disks in much the same way that they've > recently been rolling out SATA. > > Hm, that may actually be another excuse: if they'd gone SCSI, there's > the danger people would have demanded the sort of performance and > reliability SCSI has historically delivered. With a New! and Improved! > but completely incompatible interface, they can continue shipping cheap > crap and not getting called on it because there isn't the historical > record that says it doesn't have to be cheap crap. Well. We can always count on suits to give us the least quality for the highest profit margin. I generally avoid it by not using commodity trash. My servers all have native FibreChannel interfaces...there's really no excuse for settling for less, especially at today's "collapsing economy" prices on used top-end gear. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 20:00:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:00:29 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50284E00.9080206@bitsavers.org> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> <50284E00.9080206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <502851AD.1010400@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 08:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Absolutely. There are several other notable foibles of that >> industry...the very existence of (IBM's proprietary) SSA and SAS, which >> are both completely pointless in the face of FibreChannel...they are all >> just different physical layers for SCSI. >> > > You haven't been paying much attention to SAS recently, then. Actually I have. > They actually > did something intelligent and made the interconnect common between SAS > and SATA. Yep. Your statement seemed to suggest that this is in conflict with my assertion above. Perhaps I misinterpreted it. > The file servers I spec'ed for the CHM digital repository are all SAS > backplanes > with SATA drives in them. If you dig around for the few pictures of the > current > Internet Archive servers, this is exactly what they did as well. Nice work! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 12 20:19:41 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 12, 12 08:21:38 pm" Message-ID: <201208130119.q7D1JfCh14483614@floodgap.com> > > There was a perfectly good alternative to ATA/IDE, and has been for > > ages. It's called SCSI. It is, and was at the time SATA was > > introduced, a mature, proven technology with a huge installed base. > > Absolutely. There are several other notable foibles of that > industry...the very existence of (IBM's proprietary) SSA and SAS, which > are both completely pointless in the face of FibreChannel...they are all > just different physical layers for SCSI. What's wrong with SAS? SSA I can see a big argument against (and you just made it), but SAS is solid and interconnects with SATA, as Al pointed out. I like FibreChannel fine, but SAS seems perfectly decent to me. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "You Only Live Twice" ------------------------------ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 12 20:30:59 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:30:59 -0400 Subject: Reverse engineering silicon - Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <1AEB9C72-0897-4FA5-8D97-B7E9989B5054@me.com> Message-ID: <502858D3.8060107@telegraphics.com.au> On 12/08/12 7:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> And much reverse engineering of silicon requires access to the silicon. This means eating off the plastic housing with acid. Very impressive things can be done, and I would wager that if you passed a sufficiently interesting chip to a guy like Bunnie Huang he'd see about reverse engineering it. > > There are indeed firms that can reverse engineer chips - even dead > ones. ... Then there is this mob: http://www.flylogic.net/blog/ --Toby > > -- > Will > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 20:31:13 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <001201cd7895$092eba90$1b8c2fb0$@YAHOO.COM> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> <001201cd7895$092eba90$1b8c2fb0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <1344821473.77632.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Andrew Lynch PS, BTW there are still plenty of the ECB uPD7220 GDC board PCBs left.? They are readily adapted to almost any microcomputer/embedded/vintage type system.? They work well and interface to standard VGA monitors. C: How much? And where are you getting all these 7220 chips from Andy? I think I have a total of 3 in my possession, and all are likely soldered to something. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 20:31:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:31:21 -0400 Subject: TO-263 footprint? In-Reply-To: <502850CE.1060201@neurotica.com> References: <502850CE.1060201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> On Aug 12, 2012, at 8:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks! Would anyone happen to have a PCB footprint for a TO-263 > package? I'm designing a circuit that will use an LM2577 switching > regulator. I've checked on gedasymbols.org to no avail. I'm kinda > surprised it's not in the standard library. TO-263 is also often called D^2PAK. Perhaps these should work. http://gedasymbols.org/scripts/search.cgi?key=d2pak - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 20:32:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:32:47 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208130119.q7D1JfCh14483614@floodgap.com> References: <201208130119.q7D1JfCh14483614@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5028593F.6080608@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 09:19 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> There was a perfectly good alternative to ATA/IDE, and has been for >>> ages. It's called SCSI. It is, and was at the time SATA was >>> introduced, a mature, proven technology with a huge installed base. >> >> Absolutely. There are several other notable foibles of that >> industry...the very existence of (IBM's proprietary) SSA and SAS, which >> are both completely pointless in the face of FibreChannel...they are all >> just different physical layers for SCSI. > > What's wrong with SAS? SSA I can see a big argument against (and you just > made it), but SAS is solid and interconnects with SATA, as Al pointed out. > > I like FibreChannel fine, but SAS seems perfectly decent to me. I find nothing at all wrong with it. That wasn't my point. My point was we didn't need it...it's a solution in search of a problem, as we already had FibreChannel, which can be made every bit as cheap as SAS if the manufacturers want to do it. We didn't need YET ANOTHER fast serial transport mechanism for the SCSI protocol. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 12 20:46:16 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:46:16 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > For many computers such as the IBM 1130, the PDP-8 and even the ICT 1301 we > > have copious documentation, drawings, records, photographs and software. We > > understand the technology and contraction of these machines in intimate > > detail. > > No we do not. > > Certain information normally does not show up in the information you > list. [...] Yep. Even for things where we do have lots of docs, i.e. Tektronix gear, you will see things like such-and-such an IC is a linear amplifier and the vendor is.... Tektronix. With no alternate manufacturer part number listed. Great! So how the hell do we know what to use to replace such a failed linear amplifier? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 20:48:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:48:05 -0400 Subject: TO-263 footprint? In-Reply-To: <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> References: <502850CE.1060201@neurotica.com> <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50285CD5.2020505@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 09:31 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 12, 2012, at 8:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Hey folks! Would anyone happen to have a PCB footprint for a TO-263 >> package? I'm designing a circuit that will use an LM2577 switching >> regulator. I've checked on gedasymbols.org to no avail. I'm kinda >> surprised it's not in the standard library. > > TO-263 is also often called D^2PAK. Perhaps these should work. > > http://gedasymbols.org/scripts/search.cgi?key=d2pak Oh crap. Did I really send that to classiccmp instead of geda-users? Sorry for the noise, folks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 20:50:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:50:37 -0400 Subject: TO-263 footprint? In-Reply-To: <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> References: <502850CE.1060201@neurotica.com> <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50285D6D.6070708@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 09:31 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 12, 2012, at 8:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Hey folks! Would anyone happen to have a PCB footprint for a TO-263 >> package? I'm designing a circuit that will use an LM2577 switching >> regulator. I've checked on gedasymbols.org to no avail. I'm kinda >> surprised it's not in the standard library. > > TO-263 is also often called D^2PAK. Perhaps these should work. > > http://gedasymbols.org/scripts/search.cgi?key=d2pak ...but thanks for the suggestion, I will check to see if I have that in the library. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 12 20:55:37 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:55:37 -0600 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Jason McBrien writes: > I have stacks of them. Stacks of the boards or whole systems? I'd like to get a system or two, but I get the impression that even with the systems I can get, the graphics boards weren't so common. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 20:57:20 2012 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:57:20 +1000 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Monday, 13 August 2012 10:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > We certainly don't need SATA, but we have it anyway. Seriously, what's there to dislike about it? Faster, hot swappable, smaller cabling - the haters will just keep on hating anything new unfortunately. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 12 20:57:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50284E00.9080206@bitsavers.org> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> <50284E00.9080206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201208130157.VAA24903@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > They actually did something intelligent and made the interconnect > common between SAS and SATA. I'm not sure I'd call that intelligent. If the compatability goes far enough that either kind of device works with either kind of interface, then I agree, but then there's really no difference between them - they're just two names for the same thing. If the compatability doesn't go that far, then we now have a way you can plug something in that looks perfectly compatible but which does not actually work when connected. I have trouble seeing how this is good for anyone, this time including hardware makers. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 21:15:03 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:15:03 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: > Yep. Even for things where we do have lots of docs, i.e. Tektronix > gear, you will see things like such-and-such an IC is a linear > amplifier and the vendor is.... Tektronix. With no alternate > manufacturer part number listed. > > Great! So how the hell do we know what to use to replace such a > failed linear amplifier? This problem is really not a whole lot different from an ASIC. Mystery black box, basically. -- Will From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 21:35:06 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1344825306.44269.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Lance Lyon Seriously, what's there to dislike about it? Faster, hot swappable, smaller cabling - the haters will just keep on hating anything new unfortunately. C: O man. They're just guzzling that Haterade, aren't they Lance From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 21:35:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:35:46 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <50286802.3070904@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 09:57 PM, Lance Lyon wrote: > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Monday, 13 August 2012 10:32 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > >> We certainly don't need SATA, but we have it anyway. > > Seriously, what's there to dislike about it? Faster, hot swappable, smaller > cabling - I DO NOT dislike it. I didn't say I disliked it. I never mentioned whether I liked it or dislike it. What I said was, "we didn't need it." We already had a disk interface that was faster, hot swappable, and with smaller cabling. Now we have about three more! For the record, I happen to like it. I like them all, because they're (mostly) all pretty well-designed. What I DO NOT like is IDE, because it sucks. If you've been keeping track, that's SEVEN storage interfaces that have been mentioned in this thread, and I (as if you actually CARE) "hate" precisely ONE of them. But that didn't stop this inexplicable reaction: > the haters will just keep on hating anything new unfortunately. ...and the knee-jerk labelers will just keep on labeling anything they read here, regardless of whether or not the point being made has gone squarely over their heads, even though it was spelled out in plain English. WTF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 21:55:40 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:55:40 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5028358C.9090909@neurotica.com> References: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> <5028358C.9090909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <99AF6DF4-D6DC-4DE3-902D-C87E72C4F146@gmail.com> On Aug 12, 2012, at 7:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/12/2012 06:49 PM, Dave wrote: >> These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre Channel and >> FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial interfaces tend to become the >> interfacee of choice. > > Indeed, PCIe is serial. The amazing advancements in LVD signaling and > high-speed PCB design have given us a lot of interesting new > capabilities. The PCI bus evolved FROM parallel TO serial to gain more > speed, whoda thunk it? ;) It turned out that, in the end, skew along > parallel buses became a bigger problem than pushing the speeds into the > GHz range. Yes, and then by turning it into multiple high-speed serial streams which can be realigned through the use of FIFOs, we've come to a kind of strange "parallel serial" implementation (it's really trunking, when it comes down to it). Nice that our serial implementations have let us make parallel communications possible again. :-) - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 12 21:56:04 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> We certainly don't need SATA, but we have it anyway. > Seriously, what's there to dislike about it? If there were no installed base, very little (possibly nothing - I don't know either interface well enough to be sure). But anything that means trying to buy new parts is met with "that's been discontinued, you'll have to buy new everything else too" is something to dislike. If disks were just as available in IDE as SATA (just try to buy a >1T IDE drive) and if host support for SATA were coeval with, instead of replacing, IDE? Then you might have a point. That's not what I'm seeing, though. That's why I wrote of SATA being imposed on buyers, rather than being offered to buyers. > [...] the haters will just keep on hating anything new unfortunately. "Haters"? Meaning, people who care about continuing to use existing hardware? That's a peculiar definition for the word, especially here. I don't hate the appearance of SATA, not per se. I hate the disappearance of IDE. Not because I think it's a great interface, but because it's an existing interface with a huge installed base, and desupporting it this fast I have trouble seeing as anything less than a deliberate attempt to obsolesce existing hardware. *That*, I hate. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 22:16:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:16:15 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <99AF6DF4-D6DC-4DE3-902D-C87E72C4F146@gmail.com> References: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> <5028358C.9090909@neurotica.com> <99AF6DF4-D6DC-4DE3-902D-C87E72C4F146@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5028717F.7080000@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 10:55 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre Channel and >>> FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial interfaces tend to become the >>> interfacee of choice. >> >> Indeed, PCIe is serial. The amazing advancements in LVD signaling and >> high-speed PCB design have given us a lot of interesting new >> capabilities. The PCI bus evolved FROM parallel TO serial to gain more >> speed, whoda thunk it? ;) It turned out that, in the end, skew along >> parallel buses became a bigger problem than pushing the speeds into the >> GHz range. > > Yes, and then by turning it into multiple high-speed serial streams > which can be realigned through the use of FIFOs, we've come to a > kind of strange "parallel serial" implementation (it's really trunking, > when it comes down to it). Nice that our serial implementations have > let us make parallel communications possible again. :-) Indeed! ;) PCIe is really quite nice. Oh shit, I forgot...I'm a HATER, and PCIe is "new", so I have to hate it. IT SUCKS IT SUCKS IT SUCKS! [flips Lance the bird] -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 22:18:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:18:02 -0400 Subject: TO-263 footprint? In-Reply-To: <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> References: <502850CE.1060201@neurotica.com> <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> Message-ID: <502871EA.6070600@neurotica.com> On 08/12/2012 09:31 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Hey folks! Would anyone happen to have a PCB footprint for a TO-263 >> package? I'm designing a circuit that will use an LM2577 switching >> regulator. I've checked on gedasymbols.org to no avail. I'm kinda >> surprised it's not in the standard library. > > TO-263 is also often called D^2PAK. Perhaps these should work. > > http://gedasymbols.org/scripts/search.cgi?key=d2pak And that looks perfect, thank you Dave! (and again I'm sorry for spamming the wrong list!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 12 22:18:12 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:18:12 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:56 PM Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > I don't hate the appearance of SATA, not per se. I hate the > disappearance of IDE. Not because I think it's a great interface, but > because it's an existing interface with a huge installed base, and > desupporting it this fast I have trouble seeing as anything less than a > deliberate attempt to obsolesce existing hardware. *That*, I hate. > Don't they make SATA to IDE converters for under $3 shipped from China? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 22:22:42 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:22:42 -0400 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50287302.8020207@neurotica.com> On 08/11/2012 04:53 PM, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have one of these boards? > > They are derived from research at UNC on Pixel Planes. > I'm fairly certain that I have at least one of each of the variants here. If I can find them, you should be able to talk me out of them pretty easily. I love DECstations, but I'm only really interested in them for fairly simple general-use graphics, so you'd be able to make better use of them than I. At the very least I'll get the high-res images you want. I'll dig for them tomorrow. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 12 23:00:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I don't hate the appearance of SATA, not per se. I hate the >> disappearance of IDE. > Don't they make SATA to IDE converters for under $3 shipped from > China? I don't know; I've never really looked. If I could buy such a converter at the local brick-and-mortar the same way, at the same time as, I buy the drive? Then you might have a point. Otherwise, at the very least it's raised the bar substantially. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 12 23:10:22 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:10:22 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 12:00 AM Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 >>> I don't hate the appearance of SATA, not per se. I hate the >>> disappearance of IDE. >> Don't they make SATA to IDE converters for under $3 shipped from >> China? > > I don't know; I've never really looked. If I could buy such a > converter at the local brick-and-mortar the same way, at the same time > as, I buy the drive? Then you might have a point. Otherwise, at the > very least it's raised the bar substantially. > The local brick-and-mortar store would charge $19.99 for the same part. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 23:13:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:13:47 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 12:00 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> I don't hate the appearance of SATA, not per se. I hate the >>> disappearance of IDE. >> Don't they make SATA to IDE converters for under $3 shipped from >> China? > > I don't know; I've never really looked. If I could buy such a > converter at the local brick-and-mortar the same way, at the same time > as, I buy the drive? Then you might have a point. Otherwise, at the > very least it's raised the bar substantially. I dunno Mouse. You and I usually agree on this sort of thing, but this time I have to disagree. It's a whole lot easier to to sit here in my underwear at 4AM, click on a listing and have it show up at my door a week later...in the meantime I can get back to doing real work, and not have to deal with the "duhhhhhhhhhhhhh" of the mouth-breathers who work retail these days. Brick-and-mortar stores are WAY overrated. (and dying) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 23:14:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:14:20 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50287F1C.90805@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 12:10 AM, TeoZ wrote: >>>> I don't hate the appearance of SATA, not per se. I hate the >>>> disappearance of IDE. >>> Don't they make SATA to IDE converters for under $3 shipped from >>> China? >> >> I don't know; I've never really looked. If I could buy such a >> converter at the local brick-and-mortar the same way, at the same time >> as, I buy the drive? Then you might have a point. Otherwise, at the >> very least it's raised the bar substantially. >> > The local brick-and-mortar store would charge $19.99 for the same part. ...and you'd have to put up with the "duhhhhhhhhh" of the cashier. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 12 23:30:08 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:30:08 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/12 9:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Brick-and-mortar stores are WAY overrated. (and dying) > I went to three different stores to buy a piece of perf board, and ended up getting a used one at Halted (with Haltek printed on it!). The section at Frys was completely empty at the Palo Alto and Sunnyvale store. I can get it from dozens of places on line, if I wanted to wait a couple of days and pay shipping, though I probably spent more than that on gas. I was just complaining on Saturday that the price for things like wire-wrap sockets have tripled in the last couple of years, if you can even find them. The parts stocks in the valley surplus places are drying up. Halted was completely out of stock of 9 through 25 pin D connectors. This is bad news for finding old parts that used to be really common to keep systems going. You can't really buy a lot of this kind of stuff on line, you need to LOOK at it to see if you can make it work if it doesn't exactly match. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Aug 12 23:42:35 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:42:35 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Aug 12, 2012, at 9:30 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/12/12 9:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Brick-and-mortar stores are WAY overrated. (and dying) >> > > I went to three different stores to buy a piece of perf board, and ended > up getting a used one at Halted (with Haltek printed on it!). The section > at Frys was completely empty at the Palo Alto and Sunnyvale store. > > I can get it from dozens of places on line, if I wanted to wait a couple > of days and pay shipping, though I probably spent more than that on gas. > > I was just complaining on Saturday that the price for things like wire-wrap > sockets have tripled in the last couple of years, if you can even find them. > The parts stocks in the valley surplus places are drying up. Halted was > completely out of stock of 9 through 25 pin D connectors. This is bad news > > There is Excess Solutions in Milpitas. It's way better than Halted these days. All these places are going the way of the dodo. They will even admit it if you ask. There is no manufacturing left in the valley so no surplus. Excess has still got a huge stock of everything while Halted feels like they are running out of everything. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 12 23:43:29 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208130443.AAA27656@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...IDE <-> SATA converters "for under $3 shipped from China"...] >> If I could buy such a converter at the local brick-and-mortar the >> same way, at the same time as, I buy the drive? Then you might have >> a point. Otherwise, at the very least it's raised the bar >> substantially. > I dunno Mouse. You and I usually agree on this sort of thing, but > this time I have to disagree. It's a whole lot easier to to sit here > in my underwear at 4AM, click on a listing and have it show up at my > door a week later... Easier, perhaps. (Well, for most people, at least. Not for me.) But ease is not everything. I'm not about to give my plastic number to a website, especially not one not bound by Canadian privacy laws. If they do phone orders? Mayyyybe. Even if it _is_ available online and even if you _are_ willing to buy it that way, you still have to find it. Even TeoZ sounded unsure ("don't they make [...]?", not "there are [...]."). I'd also rather go to the store and have it in my hands tomorrow than have to wait until "a week later" (if it arrives at all, that is - and what recourse do you have against a Chinese outfit if it doesn't, or turns out to be the wrong device, or some such?). TeoZ also remarked < The local brick-and-mortar store would charge $19.99 for the same < part. Would they? I don't recall seeing them at _any_ price. Paying $20 instead of $3 to have it on the spot instead of some indeterminate time a week or two later? To have the assurance of looking at it to make sure it's adapting in the direction I want? To not have to deal with God-damned Web crap? No question that'd be worth it to me. Those are why I buy disks at brick-and-mortar instead of "online", too. > [...], and not have to deal with the "duhhhhhhhhhhhhh" of the > mouth-breathers who work retail these days. My experience differs. Come to think of it, there's one small brick-and-mortar I know that might be willing to dig one up for me. I'll have to ask. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 12 23:46:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:46:57 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <502886C1.8070208@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 12:30 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I went to three different stores to buy a piece of perf board, and ended > up getting a used one at Halted (with Haltek printed on it!). The section > at Frys was completely empty at the Palo Alto and Sunnyvale store. > > I can get it from dozens of places on line, if I wanted to wait a couple > of days and pay shipping, though I probably spent more than that on gas. > > I was just complaining on Saturday that the price for things like wire-wrap > sockets have tripled in the last couple of years, if you can even find > them. > The parts stocks in the valley surplus places are drying up. Halted was > completely out of stock of 9 through 25 pin D connectors. This is bad news > for finding old parts that used to be really common to keep systems going. > You can't really buy a lot of this kind of stuff on line, you need to LOOK > at it to see if you can make it work if it doesn't exactly match. For stuff like this, I agree 100%. :-( From my point of view though, such places never existed in the first place, anywhere near driving distance of where I've always lived. ;) The only exception to that has been Skycraft Surplus in Orlando FL, but that was (when I lived in FL) still a 2.5hr drive, and their prices border on the obscene. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 12 23:54:24 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:54:24 -0600 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <50288880.7080705@brouhaha.com> > Where should I put the four image files? You should probably send them to Al Kossow. If you send copies to me, I'll start on disassembling them. Best regards, Eric From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 23:57:24 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:57:24 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <1344821473.77632.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> <001201cd7895$092eba90$1b8c2fb0$@YAHOO.COM> <1344821473.77632.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01cd7910$3b1fcd70$b15f6850$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 9:31 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Andrew Lynch > > PS, BTW there are still plenty of the ECB uPD7220 GDC board PCBs left.? They > are readily adapted to almost any microcomputer/embedded/vintage type > system.? They work well and interface to standard VGA monitors. > > C: How much? And where are you getting all these 7220 chips from Andy? I > think I have a total of 3 in my possession, and all are likely soldered to > something. Hi The usual NOS parts places. The NEC 7220 was made in enormous quantities until fairly recently. There are a lot of stocks still remaining. During the N8VEM ECB uPD7220 build and test no one had issues finding the chips. I have about one tube's worth still. All I am supplying is the PCB, the builders are making home brew computers so they source the parts themselves. However as parts go the uPD7220 is not a challenge. They are relatively plentiful NOS parts and inexpensive. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 13 00:08:56 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 01:08:56 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <201208130443.AAA27656@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <2086E84FD4D44112BF35FB83500C109E@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 12:43 AM Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > Come to think of it, there's one small brick-and-mortar I know that > might be willing to dig one up for me. I'll have to ask. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Actually they are on ebay for $2.45 shipped and work bidirectional. Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-TO-Serial-ATA-I-II-Hard-Drive-HDD-Converter-Convert-Cable-/271019005197 To be honest for small commodity items I just order stuff from ebay, they are all made in China or Asia anyway so you might as well get them from the source and shipping is pretty fast on small parts. I don't know of an electronics surplus place in NE Ohio, and Best Buy charges a mint for cables and stuff I only head out there for DVD media when I am low and they have a sale. WWW ordering has taken over what used to be mail ordering of computer parts (loved that in the 1990's). Since everything is pretty much manufactured overseas surplus stores will either turn into cheap resellers of stuff they buy direct from China or they will go out of business. Sooner or later anything old you need is going to come from a collector who hoarded it when it was dumped, everything else is getting recycled by the ton. From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 13 00:17:26 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 07:17:26 +0200 Subject: VME-Prototype, Wire-Wrap boards was : Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120813071726.2ihhm3y1icg04wks@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting Al Kossow : > I was just complaining on Saturday that the price for things like wire-wrap > sockets have tripled in the last couple of years, if you can even find them. Hi, that's interesting. I was searching on the weeken for VME-Bus prototype boards, and came up dry. Anybody knows a source, which still delivers? (looking for the single width 160x100mm wire wrap boards) Thanks ! From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Aug 13 00:35:25 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 01:35:25 -0400 Subject: Reverse engineering silicon - Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502858D3.8060107@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1AEB9C72-0897-4FA5-8D97-B7E9989B5054@me.com> <502858D3.8060107@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I've been wracking my brain trying to remember these guys. Thanks! Sent from my iPhone On 2012-08-12, at 9:30 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 12/08/12 7:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> And much reverse engineering of silicon requires access to the silicon. This means eating off the plastic housing with acid. Very impressive things can be done, and I would wager that if you passed a sufficiently interesting chip to a guy like Bunnie Huang he'd see about reverse engineering it. >> >> There are indeed firms that can reverse engineer chips - even dead >> ones. ... > > Then there is this mob: > http://www.flylogic.net/blog/ > > --Toby > >> >> -- >> Will >> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 00:50:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:50:38 -0700 Subject: VME-Prototype, Wire-Wrap boards was : Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120813071726.2ihhm3y1icg04wks@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41>, <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org>, <20120813071726.2ihhm3y1icg04wks@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <5028333E.19842.2D8E133@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2012 at 7:17, emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > that's interesting. I was searching on the weeken for VME-Bus > prototype boards, and came up dry. Anybody knows a source, which still > delivers? (looking for the single width 160x100mm wire wrap boards) Try Circuit Specialists. Nice guys, but they seem to have only the 233x160mm board in stock: http://www.web-tronics.com/vme-bus-prototyping-boards Talk to them; maybe they've got something kicking around in back. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 13 01:37:17 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:37:17 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208122258.SAA23342@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> <201208122258.SAA23342@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120813083717.fe11677d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Mouse wrote: > At least until someone notices "hey, if we run another 7 data pairs, we > can get 8 times the data rate for free!". And the cycle of > reincarnation continues.... You mean like PCI-Express? (simplified) A PCIe card can use multiple "lanes" (i.e. serial links) in parallel to get higher transfer rates. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 13 01:43:12 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:43:12 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120813084312.2f429b2e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Mouse wrote: > There was a perfectly good alternative to ATA/IDE, and has been for > ages. It's called SCSI. It is, and was at the time SATA was > introduced, a mature, proven technology with a huge installed base. Parallel SCSI has some of the same problems like PATA. Thats why it got replaced with SAS. And SAS is basicly SATA on steroids... IIRC you can connect SATA disks to SAS adapters. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 13 01:53:27 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:53:27 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120813085327.c4f49b04.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 20:32:18 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > And there are several kinds of SCSI that don't use ribbon cables. > SSA, SAS, FibreChannel, and FireWire come to mind. All SCSI, just on > different transport mechanisms. We don't even need all of THOSE serial > varieties of SCSI, but we have them. We certainly don't need SATA, but > we have it anyway. Well. SSA was IBM proprietary. SAS is OK. FC is OK, but FC-AL as a direct disk interface showed its age. (Signaling, speed, bus topology, ...) FireWire was never intended as a direct disk interface. It playes more in the leage of USB. (BTW: USB disks use SCSI commands too...) > Damn suits and their greed. Greed, ignorance, arrogance and stupidness. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 01:56:10 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 07:56:10 +0100 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p In-Reply-To: <201208112208.q7BM8spt8978596@floodgap.com> References: <201208112208.q7BM8spt8978596@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <56351687-861C-44C7-A9EF-5E68ADA02B46@gmail.com> On 11 Aug 2012, at 23:08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Oh gawd, yes. We, the private AIX non-corp users, aren't worth IBM's white- > shirt-and-sincere-tie time. I went around and around fruitlessly for weeks > to buy hardware and media from them. Just take my money, I said! You can't write company songs about selling to a single Joe Bloggs... right? > So I gave up and bought both the server and later the AIX media secondhand. > The only "new" AIX I ever got was with my Apple Network Server. Otherwise, I > just have eBay media sets. A bunch of us lucked out in the UK and found a guy selling cheap (talking 200 GBP) POWER5 9111-285s on eBay... otherwise I'd never have a new one either :) I think I know about 6 people that all bought one. Similarly I have 4.3.3, 5.3 and 7.1 and all are surplus media sets bought as new-not-required from eBay. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 13 01:56:23 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:56:23 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5028A517.5020605@jwsss.com> On 8/12/2012 9:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: > There is Excess Solutions in Milpitas. It's way better than Halted these days. All these places are going the way of the dodo. They will even admit it if you ask. There is no manufacturing left in the valley so no surplus. Excess has still got a huge stock of everything while Halted feels like they are running out of everything. I've got a ton of stuff for sale in my van which is in Orange County. So far three phone calls and no takers. You just tell them old stock and if it isn't recent gates you get to shoot the shit for a while and then hang up. if anyone wants it the first $500 would take it. For that I'll throw in a big pile of dips (lots of analog and power regulation parts, but a fair amount of 7400 stuff). comment on the IC's are such as "I'm not storing one cent gates". i also have 75# of Eproms I'm sorting thru which I'll list on ebay eventually. Deals could be made for a good sale of the contents of the truck. Jim From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 02:53:34 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:53:34 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5028A517.5020605@jwsss.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> <5028A517.5020605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Aug 12, 2012, at 11:56 PM, jim s wrote: > > > if anyone wants it the first $500 would take it. For that I'll throw in a big pile of dips (lots of analog and power regulation parts, but a fair amount of 7400 stuff). > > comment on the IC's are such as "I'm not storing one cent gates". > > Jim I don't think any of them want anymore 74 series stuff. There is no demand and the Chinese will sell you 1000 of whatever for a dollar. I needed three and it ended up cheaper to buy 60. Now I have all these IC here in tubes I will never use. I throw them at the stupid cats that like to have loud cat sex in my back yard. From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Aug 13 02:59:59 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 03:59:59 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> <5028A517.5020605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <85A8F895-8A64-4311-A4C5-F3B55F069941@me.com> At some point I want to tackle building a clone of the Magic-1. That requires quite a bit of 74 series logic. On 2012-08-13, at 3:53 AM, mc68010 wrote: > > On Aug 12, 2012, at 11:56 PM, jim s wrote: >> >> >> if anyone wants it the first $500 would take it. For that I'll throw in a big pile of dips (lots of analog and power regulation parts, but a fair amount of 7400 stuff). >> >> comment on the IC's are such as "I'm not storing one cent gates". >> >> Jim > > > I don't think any of them want anymore 74 series stuff. There is no demand and the Chinese will sell you 1000 of whatever for a dollar. I needed three and it ended up cheaper to buy 60. Now I have all these IC here in tubes I will never use. I throw them at the stupid cats that like to have loud cat sex in my back yard. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 03:16:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 04:16:51 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120813085327.c4f49b04.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <20120813085327.c4f49b04.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5028B7F3.5030400@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 02:53 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> And there are several kinds of SCSI that don't use ribbon cables. >> SSA, SAS, FibreChannel, and FireWire come to mind. All SCSI, just on >> different transport mechanisms. We don't even need all of THOSE serial >> varieties of SCSI, but we have them. We certainly don't need SATA, but >> we have it anyway. > Well. > SSA was IBM proprietary. Yes, a direct answer to FibreChannel. > SAS is OK. > FC is OK, but FC-AL as a direct disk interface showed its age. > (Signaling, speed, bus topology, ...) They went to 4Gbps, and could've gone to 6 or 8 (maybe did, not sure)...and nobody has run them as loops for years, right? > FireWire was never intended as a direct disk interface. It playes more > in the leage of USB. (BTW: USB disks use SCSI commands too...) True. >> Damn suits and their greed. > Greed, ignorance, arrogance and stupidness. Yep. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 03:20:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 04:20:04 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <85A8F895-8A64-4311-A4C5-F3B55F069941@me.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> <5028A517.5020605@jwsss.com> <85A8F895-8A64-4311-A4C5-F3B55F069941@me.com> Message-ID: <5028B8B4.6070302@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 03:59 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > At some point I want to tackle building a clone of the Magic-1. That requires quite a bit of 74 series logic. Just a bit! ;) That machine really is an achievement. There's nothing particularly complex in there, but the level of work involved is stunning -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Aug 13 03:35:30 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:35:30 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <20120811214316.GA2406@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Aug 11, 12 11:43:16 pm Message-ID: The important thing is if you return something functional(regardless of what) to its original visual appearance you have only done half the job. If you showed it to its original designers/builders said it was had been restored I don't think you would get much agreement. The big problem is the attitude of organizations (I won't even call them museums) that they have 'saved' something. They really mean 'if we cannot restore this item then we will make sure nobody else does in case we loose face. Remember they are self seeking egoists trying to attract the approbation of a wider audience by trying to draw attention to something they have done. Collectors on the other hand do what they do for personal satisfaction. They consider unpublicized success reward enough. However if asked by a like minded soul will do as much as they can to help. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 12 August 2012 19:28 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > > I think you have to consider what damage could be done. And that depeneds > > -- a lot -- on the artefact. A vitage aeroplane is likely to be totally > > destroyed if it crashes, so you probably don't want to fly it very often. > > The local flying club begs to differ: > > http://airforcecenter.ch/index.php?id=25&L=1 > > IIRC there are 8 airworthy Junkers Ju-52 still around. The Airforce > Center D??bendorf (near Z??rich) has 6 of them and they are actively flying > them quite a bit. There regular tourist tours around Switzerland and you > can even charter them, e.g. for an event. Well, if they're preapred to fly an essentially irreplacable aircraft, whioch could be totally destroyed if soemthing fials (of course they do a lot of checks -- they have to by law -- but things can still fail), and since running the aeroplane will casue wear on moving parts (and thus damage the artefact) then IMHO a computer museum has no excvuse whatsover not to run a much more oommon classic computer ,at least from time to time. -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Aug 13 03:36:54 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 04:36:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> <5028A517.5020605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201208130836.EAA29951@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> if anyone wants it the first $500 would take it. Heh. If you were to pull up at my doorstep in Ottawa and make that offer, I'd take you up on it. :-/ > I don't think any of them want anymore 74 series stuff. The dealers, maybe not. > There is no demand and the Chinese will sell you 1000 of whatever for > a dollar. Yeah...but will they sell me 20 of each of 50 different parts for a dollar? I have little use for 1000 of any single part. (Well, any TTL part. I bought 1000 of some things - 1N914, 2N3904, 2N3906, and five (I think) resistor values that I use heavily. Those actually cost me more like $10 per thousand, but I wasn't buying them direct from a Chinese manufacturer.) That's why I'm tempted by that vanful of parts: variety. But they're of basically no use to me in Orange County. There is demand. Just not enough to interest most dealers. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrise at pobox.com Mon Aug 13 06:15:24 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 06:15:24 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <50288880.7080705@brouhaha.com> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> <50288880.7080705@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120813111523.GJ22505@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (08/12/2012 at 10:54PM -0600), Eric Smith wrote: > > Where should I put the four image files? > > You should probably send them to Al Kossow. > > If you send copies to me, I'll start on disassembling them. Done. Thanks! Chris -- Chris Elmquist From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 18:49:12 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:49:12 -0400 Subject: Found a rs6000 43p Message-ID: > From: Jochen Kunz > Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:42:31 +0200 > Subject: Re: Found a rs6000 43p > John Many Jars wrote: > >> This one has AIX on it... it fails bootup and drops you to some sort >> of prompt right after it plays it's tune (with the little speaker >> icon). >> >> You can type ls at the prompt and gets what looks like a list of devices. >> >> Should I bit it, or is it worth trying to fix? Anyone point me in the >> right direction? > There are several different variants of 43P. This one seems to be a > 43P-150 because you can type "ls" and get a divice tree. This sounds > like the OpenFirmWare of a CHRP machine. The enclosure of the machine > should be black? > > You have a quite capable PPC machine there. You could reinstall AIX. > Instalation media should be obtainable. An other option is to install > NetBSD. Maybe it drops to OFW just because autoboot is disabled. Try to > type "boot" at the OFW prompt and see.. > > \end{Jochen} It should also run Solaris 2.5.1. I think I have the install CD. -- Michael Thompson From sytse at sytse.net Sun Aug 12 12:43:49 2012 From: sytse at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:43:49 +0200 Subject: Anyone have printouts for KKTA/KKTB 11/44 MEM MGMT tests? In-Reply-To: <5027D8A0.8050900@heeltoe.com> References: <5027D8A0.8050900@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: kktb is on bitsavers! Helped me tremendously in finding a couple of bugs http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/fiche_200dpi/0174_CKKTBD0_1144mmgmt.pdf On Aug 12, 2012, at 6:24 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > Just curious if anyone has printouts (or scans) of the PDP-11/44 memory management diagnostics KKTA/KKTB > > KKTA 11/44 MEM MGMT PRT A > KKTB 11/44 MEM MGMT PRT B > > KKTAB1.BIC xx-xxx-xx 3369 27 3395 0 > KKTBD0.BIC xx-xxx-xx 3396 30 3425 0 > > I have the binaries from xxdp images but no listing... > > -brad > From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 14:13:25 2012 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I posted some 1980's vintage HP3000 marketing shots at Flicker:?http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBmrAyC Enjoy! ? Lee Courtney From tpresence at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 15:14:00 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 14:14:00 -0600 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: from "Tothwolf" at Aug 11, 12 08:29:45 pm, Message-ID: As someone who has done this recently, I have a few suggestions, but you have to buy some stuff. First and foremost, I didn't have a crimper that would work with mmj. You can use just a standard rj11/rj12/rj21 crimper if you are willing to break of the clip, but I didn't want that. I did not solder straight into a DB9 connector with a housing, but you could do that if you wanted. I basically wanted to leave the modular connector attached to my pc and the microvax II and that way I could fab any length cable I needed with MMJ connector ends. Just snap them in or out as needed. The longest cable I have fabbed has been about 30', and it does work, but I don't know the limit for the strange microvax II 9 pin port (NOT RS232). I bought this crimper. Its expensive, but cheap crimpers make a frustrating experience. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012YO83I/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00 This cable: http://www.computercablestore.com//1000FT_Silver_Satin_Modul_PID2.aspx These connectors: http://www.computercablestore.com//Modular_Connectors_RJ1112_PID2061.aspx These modular adapters (I know they look male, but its because they use the same image for both male and female): http://www.computercablestore.com//Modular_Adapter_Kit_DB9_F_PID958.aspx You probably will need some female connector pins for the connectors since you will have to connect multiple wires to a single pin on the modular connector whether you are going to a MMJ device, or RS232. I had quite a few, so I didn't need to buy any. Mine were the solder type, which I prefer. My container was labeled bendix, but might have just been the brand. If you need the pinout for connecting to a PC RS232 port(blatantly copied from http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html) H8571-J female DB9 RS232 to MMJ adapter For most of us at this moment the most important MMJ adapter is the adapter to connect a normal PC to a DEC MMJ cable. The original part number for this adapter is H8571-J. This adapter has a female DB9 connector on one side, and a female MMJ socket on the other. The wiring is explained in the diagram. H8571J adapter, PC RS232 serial port to MMJ DB9 (PC) MMJ socket Function 4 1 DTR DTR 3 2 Tx Tx+ 5 3 + 4 Signal ground Rx? + Tx? 2 5 Rx Rx+ 1 + 6 + 8 6 DSR + CTS + CD DSR The H8571-J adapter shown here can for example be used to connect a DEC printer with serial MMJ cable to a normal PC RS232 port. Note the connection between pin 1, 6 and 8 in the RS232 connector at the PC side. This connects the printer DTR line through the cross cable BC16E to the PC's DSR, CTS and CD inputs. Some programs need these connections to prevent paper-out and printer off line messages. Just my $.02. > > > For a normal MMJ to MMJ cable, I'd suggest starting with a 10ft cable. > > That seemed to be the most versatile length and was the most popular > > length that I used to sell in my eBay store. The DE9 to MMJ cables I sold > > were slightly longer at 14ft, which people really seemed to like (I sold > > 100s of them). > > I owuld gues a lot of people could solder the other end of the cable to a > DE9, DB25, or whatever, it's getting and crimping the MMJ that is the > problem. So a long-issh cable (3m or so) with an MMJ on one end only > would be useful. The purchaser cuts it to length and solders the right > conenctor on the other end. > > My cheap-ish Multicomp (Farnell own-brand) crimp tool claims to do 'DEC > plugs'. I've never tried it, and have no idea which make of MMJ it likes. > It has woreked fine on every 4p4c, 6p4c, 6p6c aed 8p8c I've thrown at it > though. > > -tony > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun Aug 12 16:15:06 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:15:06 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation Message-ID: <01OIZAUIJ21U001P8J@beyondthepale.ie> > >Every time I'be both seem an emulator of a chassic machine (runinng on a >friend's machine, obvious) and also run the rela hardware myself, I feel >the emultor doens't come close to the experinece of actually running the >classic computer. > Before I came across Hercules, I tended to dismiss emulators in the same terms. However, I find the experience of using Hercules or Simh remarkably close to the experience of using the actual machine in question. Many users of certain classic computers never saw or heard the actual machine they used and only interacted with it through a terminal (or even a terminal emulator). There are also other factors which prevent both emulators and real preserved hardware from recreating the original experience. Factors such as not having a real world workload to process and not having a realistic number of users working the machine hard (as opposed to a few museum visitors at a time trying to figure out valid commands). (I don't know why I am adding to this thread which looks destined to go on and on and achieve little except to demonstrate that different people have different ideas on how things should be preserved and that most are not going to change their minds.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 13 06:54:04 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 05:54:04 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5028593F.6080608@neurotica.com> References: <201208130119.q7D1JfCh14483614@floodgap.com> <5028593F.6080608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5028EADC.1000603@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote about SAS: > a solution in search of a problem, as we already had FibreChannel, > which can be made every bit as cheap as SAS if the manufacturers want > to do it. There's a chicken-and-egg problem there. To get FC prices down to where SAS is, they would have to have comparable unit volumes to SATA, and that wasn't ever going to happen. SAS is cheaper because it leverages the high volumes of SATA hardware (e.g., the ASICs used in the drives). From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Aug 13 07:23:37 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:23:37 +0100 Subject: recreation of a nearly 30 year old environment..... In-Reply-To: References: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >type readme.txt Welcome to this RSX11M-Plus Version 3.0 environment. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 07:29:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:29:55 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2012, at 12:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/13/2012 12:00 AM, Mouse wrote: >> I don't know; I've never really looked. If I could buy such a >> converter at the local brick-and-mortar the same way, at the same time >> as, I buy the drive? Then you might have a point. Otherwise, at the >> very least it's raised the bar substantially. > > I dunno Mouse. You and I usually agree on this sort of thing, but > this time I have to disagree. It's a whole lot easier to to sit here in > my underwear at 4AM, click on a listing and have it show up at my door a > week later...in the meantime I can get back to doing real work, and not > have to deal with the "duhhhhhhhhhhhhh" of the mouth-breathers who work > retail these days. > > Brick-and-mortar stores are WAY overrated. (and dying) I disagree, with qualifications. Back in Baltimore, there's a great little electronics store called Baynesville Electronics which is more or less what Radio Shack always should have been. It's the only place in the local area (and I live in Philadelphia now) where I can go and pick up a handful of resistors, obscure batteries and cables of all kinds (need an MMCX->RP-SMA cable right now? They have one) on the spur of the moment. More expensive than Digi-Key, but if I need some parts RIGHT NOW, it's a great option. Less of one now that I live in Philly. I wish there were more around like that. And there are, in the SF Bay area (visit Halted next time you're out there; you won't be sorry). I'll absolutely agree they're dying, but sometimes they're not overrated. - Dave From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Aug 13 08:16:43 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:16:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 5324? - was Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Nigel Williams > wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:56 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > my search-fu is weak or that is a tough machine to find much about, anyone > > have any further details? is it part of the IBM Datamaster family? > > > > I found more hits in comp.sys.ibm.sys3x which suggest to me that the IBM > 5324 is simply a storage peripheral, that is a dual 8-inch floppy drive > subsystem (perhaps including the controller onboard, hence the size of the > case). I am far from knowledgable on IBM equipment (too weird for me), but this unit comes with a matching keyboard and monitor - so unless it is a storage peripheral with a terminal built in, I'm not sure that tracks. But I will bow to those of greater wisdom. I'm almost certain it was someone on this list that tied it to the S/34 - I remember only because I have a full-size S/34 and went "That's funny" to myself. Of course, the poster may have been mistaken and it is, as later suggested a /23. I took a closer look at this the other day and it's a bit... gunky. I'm not sure where it was previously, and I'm confident it hasn't deteriorated in my keep, but I don't think it was kept well. I've also been told I can give away a second one (a friend of mine got its twin when I picked up this one), so there's now two on the pile. - JP From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 13 08:30:06 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 06:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: from David Riley at "Aug 13, 12 08:29:55 am" Message-ID: <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com> > I wish there were more around like that. And there are, in the SF Bay > area (visit Halted next time you're out there; you won't be sorry). > I'll absolutely agree they're dying, but sometimes they're not > overrated. Seconded. Even with Fry's, Fry's selection is uneven, their service is terrible, and the nearest Fry's is 45 minutes away from me anyway. I'd commit unspeakable acts if I could get a Halted here. Well, I'd commit speakable acts, at least. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Helmet: But when will Now be Then?!?! Sandurz: Soon. -- "Spaceballs" ------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 13 08:37:52 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 06:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120813085327.c4f49b04.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Aug 13, 12 08:53:27 am" Message-ID: <201208131337.q7DDbr0I9371736@floodgap.com> > FireWire was never intended as a direct disk interface. It playes more > in the leage of USB. (BTW: USB disks use SCSI commands too...) I'll be sad to see FireWire go, because I think IEEE 1394 is superior in nearly every respect to USB, but USB 3.0 will finally and totally eclipse even FW800 in speed and today that's all that matters. You'll never see S1600 or S3200 on anything but specialized pro machines, I'll wager. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Expect bright evenings, especially from the cop car lights. ------- From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 13 09:16:50 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 07:16:50 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50290C52.5060802@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/12 9:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: > There is Excess Solutions in Milpitas. It's way better than Halted these days. Yup, I've known Mike since he worked for ACE Electronics, now a shell of its former self. I heard the guy running Ace now say to one of the guys working for him when I walked in that "he's the guy that never buys anything". Well, if you had ANYTHING on my parts list, maybe I'd buy it from you. Anchor is OK for old ICs, and they are very friendly. After I wrote that first message, I was thinking this is all still way better than when I was growing up in Wisconsin in the 70's. You'd wait a month for the next issue of Byte, and mail order from James Electronics, Meshna, or all the other guys in the back for parts. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 13 10:03:41 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:03:41 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <2086E84FD4D44112BF35FB83500C109E@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <201208130443.AAA27656@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2086E84FD4D44112BF35FB83500C109E@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <5029174D.9020300@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/12 10:08 PM, TeoZ wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-TO-Serial-ATA-I-II-Hard-Drive-HDD-Converter-Convert-Cable-/271019005197 > cute, esp this part "Provide adjustable TX signal amplitude and pre-emphasis level" I wonder how you set that. Anyone try these with 1tb+ drives? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 13 10:37:30 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:37:30 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> <5028A517.5020605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50291F3A.5080709@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/13/2012 1:53 AM, mc68010 wrote: > I don't think any of them want anymore 74 series stuff. There is no > demand and the Chinese will sell you 1000 of whatever for a dollar. I > needed three and it ended up cheaper to buy 60. Now I have all these > IC here in tubes I will never use. I throw them at the stupid cats > that like to have loud cat sex in my back yard. Ah free chips ... Meyow! Meyow! > As for the TTL designs on the the web most are 8/16 bit computers. I want 9/18 bits instead. Even with a 9 bit byte you can't get a good clean instruction set for byte & word instructions. 4 registers S(tack) I(index) A(cc) P(c). AND,OR,ADD,SUB,LD,ST for byte/word instructions, r)index and r++. CMA,SRC,SLC for registers. JCC R+ T,NC,EQ,NE,LT,GE,LE,GT JSR R+, PSH, EI/DI Front panel Adress load,run,dep,exam. Control will be microcoded 512 x 24 with 1 control PCB and 2 9 bit ALU PCB's. Ben. PS. this is nice simple design - smaller than say a PDP 11 stretched to 18 bits. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 11:19:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:19:09 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com> References: from David Riley at "Aug 13, 12 08:29:55 am", <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5028C68D.12434.E3302@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2012 at 6:30, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I wish there were more around like that. And there are, in the SF > > Bay area (visit Halted next time you're out there; you won't be > > sorry). I'll absolutely agree they're dying, but sometimes they're > > not overrated. > > Seconded. Even with Fry's, Fry's selection is uneven, their service is > terrible, and the nearest Fry's is 45 minutes away from me anyway. I'd > commit unspeakable acts if I could get a Halted here. Well, I'd commit > speakable acts, at least. Well, if you manufacture stuff, this is what you get. I can remember shopping the surplus shops on S. Michigan Ave. in Chicago when I was young. Almost anything you could imagie. By the late 60s they were all gone. During the 70s and 80s, the Santa Clara vallley was loaded with shops because people were still building things there. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Anchor Electronics. They still have lots of interesting stuff. But I can empathize with those trying to sell stuff now. If I look in my own stuff, I ask myself "Who wants bipolar RAM any more?" Once very expensive, now practically worthless. Yet I can't bring myself to toss it. If I ran a surplus store, I'd go broke. It's a tough business. --Chuck From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 13 11:31:59 2012 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1344875519.59064.YahooMailClassic@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Ironically, one of the *very* recent last uses of punch > cards was for > the USDA, for cotton bales. How recent is *very*? IIRC, it was in the mid '90s that the "electronic warehouse receipt" took the place of the punched cards. Or were they still being used inside the USDA after the gins and warehouses had gone to an EDI approach? BLS From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 13 11:34:55 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 10:34:55 -0600 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <20120813111523.GJ22505@n0jcf.net> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> <50288880.7080705@brouhaha.com> <20120813111523.GJ22505@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 13 11:38:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 10:38:46 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <01OIZAUIJ21U001P8J@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OIZAUIJ21U001P8J@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: In article <01OIZAUIJ21U001P8J at beyondthepale.ie>, Peter Coghlan writes: > However, I find the experience of using Hercules or Simh remarkably close to > the experience of using the actual machine in question. Many users of certain > classic computers never saw or heard the actual machine they used and only > interacted with it through a terminal (or even a terminal emulator). Almost noone at the University of Delaware ever saw or heard the actual machines that they used. We all connected through terminals across a port selector. The only machine that had a different experience was the CDC cyber because it ran PLATO and you had to use a PLATO terminal. Well, there was also the RJE stations for the Burroughs machine, but honestly, by the time I was starting out there in the summer of 1978, noone really used that anymore. Our private terminal room was located next to an RJE station in Willard Hall (education departemtn) and I can't recall ever hearing a person use the card punch or submitting card decks there. Occasionally someone would send their job output to the printer and it would make noise printing up their SPSS output or something. That was pretty much it. Once we got a tour of the machine room and I saw the PDP-11/70 that we used all the time. I can barely remember what it looked like since we only saw it once. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 12:02:25 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:02:25 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <1344875519.59064.YahooMailClassic@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1344875519.59064.YahooMailClassic@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > How recent is *very*? The USDA was still buying cards from Cardamation until just a couple of years ago. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 13 12:05:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 10:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com> References: <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120813095251.I44508@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Seconded. Even with Fry's, Fry's selection is uneven, their service is > terrible, and the nearest Fry's is 45 minutes away from me anyway. I'd Fry's would have to improve several orders of magnitude to reach "terrible". "Customer service" reseals items that were returned due to defects, and puts them back on the shelf. It gets sold over and over, on the premise that it is user error, until somebody either fixes it themselves, or leaves it lying around too long to return it. Some of their prices are good, some aren't - 5% discount on acratched and dented appliances with missing parts? In their early days, it was worth driving an hour each way. Now, they don't even sell Jolt Cola anymore. I'd rather get generic Chinese items through eBay. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 12:58:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 10:58:53 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120813095251.I44508@shell.lmi.net> References: <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com>, <20120813095251.I44508@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5028DDED.30529.697F91@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2012 at 10:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > Fry's would have to improve several orders of magnitude to reach > "terrible". I'm a litte embarrassed to confess this... When I lived in the Bay Area, Fry's opened not far from where I lived. I initially started going there not to purchase electronics components, but Canfield's Diet Fudge Soda. Fry's was just about the only place you could find the stuff and I'd buy it by the case. John Fry was behind the counter in those days and willing to chat. He is a member of the Fry family, who own a profitable grocery chain. He'd observed (what he told me) that a supermarket operates on very thin margins (2-3 percent is typical), has to deal with vast amounts of spoilage and constant negotiating with suppliers. He figured that electronics must be easier, judging by the profit margins turned in by electronics stores. He figured that he could do better by applying what he'd learned in the grocery business. That worked for quite a while--the first Fry's was marvelous--you could even buy devkits there. Vendors held demos and talks and the place became very popular with the geek-ish folk. But I think John ran into trouble with selling PCs and components. The people behind the counter generally had the technical sophistication of your typical supermarket checker. I remember vast stocks of unsold and obsolete Everex stuff being offered for peanuts and components giving way to flashier stuff. I think it's remarkable that Fry's has survived and prospered in the market, but I wouldn't go shopping there for parts any more. I do still have unopened bags of DE9 shells and pins and other connectors all with Fry's labels. But they're over 20 years old. I still occasionally reach into a bag labeled "Sunnyvale Electronics" for a soldering tip for my Weller TCP iron. --Chuck From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 13 13:08:25 2012 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 Message-ID: <1344881305.36246.YahooMailClassic@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > If the compatability goes far enough that either kind of > device works > with either kind of interface, then I agree, but then I don't know quite how far it goes, but the controller cards we use in our products all speak both SATA and SAS.? So the drives border on interchangable.? There are differences in the command messaging and in the drive characteristics, but it's pretty easy to support both. As to the question of SATA vs IDE, I agree with your concerns over forced obsolescence.? But as far as classic machines go, I'm more concerned by the dearth of 50-pin SCSI I drives, and I haven't had very good luck with using adapters to put newer drives on older machines. As to FC, I will have to admit to a bit of bias. Competing with FC pays the bills.? But even with that bias, for communicating between a host and a storage shelf, I have a hard time imagining a good reason to do anything other than a light weight storage protocol directly over Ethernet. (And to avoid any confusion, my definition of light weight does not include FCoE or iSCSI.) BLS From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 13:11:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:11:57 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5028DDED.30529.697F91@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com>, <20120813095251.I44508@shell.lmi.net> <5028DDED.30529.697F91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <22115D46-1E92-4B3F-B04D-DE7A93ED4B01@gmail.com> On Aug 13, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Aug 2012 at 10:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Fry's would have to improve several orders of magnitude to reach >> "terrible". > > I'm a litte embarrassed to confess this... Why? Fry's used to be a good place to get good electronics and components. So did Radio Shack, though never to the same level. I find that the size of a chain is generally inversely proportional to its quality, though I'm not sure if the causal relationship is quite as cut-and-dry as it seems. I think in the case of Fry's, they got in trouble when they stopped being Radio Shack (of old) and tried to be CompUSA. Joining the race to the bottom can rot a store's soul. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 14:24:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:24:24 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50295468.5010807@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 08:29 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> I don't know; I've never really looked. If I could buy such a >>> converter at the local brick-and-mortar the same way, at the same time >>> as, I buy the drive? Then you might have a point. Otherwise, at the >>> very least it's raised the bar substantially. >> >> I dunno Mouse. You and I usually agree on this sort of thing, but >> this time I have to disagree. It's a whole lot easier to to sit here in >> my underwear at 4AM, click on a listing and have it show up at my door a >> week later...in the meantime I can get back to doing real work, and not >> have to deal with the "duhhhhhhhhhhhhh" of the mouth-breathers who work >> retail these days. >> >> Brick-and-mortar stores are WAY overrated. (and dying) > > I disagree, with qualifications. Back in Baltimore, there's a great > little electronics store called Baynesville Electronics which is more > or less what Radio Shack always should have been. It's the only place > in the local area (and I live in Philadelphia now) where I can go and > pick up a handful of resistors, obscure batteries and cables of all > kinds (need an MMCX->RP-SMA cable right now? They have one) on the > spur of the moment. More expensive than Digi-Key, but if I need some > parts RIGHT NOW, it's a great option. Less of one now that I live in > Philly. > > I wish there were more around like that. And there are, in the SF Bay > area (visit Halted next time you're out there; you won't be sorry). > I'll absolutely agree they're dying, but sometimes they're not > overrated. I was referring to the common ones, like Best Buy, that are everywhere. Stores like the one you describe aren't exactly ubiquitous, and as far as I'm aware, they never were. That said, though, I lived just south of Baltimore for a decade, and I really, really wish I'd known about that store! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 14:27:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:27:10 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5028C68D.12434.E3302@cclist.sydex.com> References: from David Riley at "Aug 13, 12 08:29:55 am", <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com> <5028C68D.12434.E3302@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5029550E.3060402@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 12:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But I can empathize with those trying to sell stuff now. If I look in > my own stuff, I ask myself "Who wants bipolar RAM any more?" Once > very expensive, now practically worthless. Yet I can't bring myself > to toss it. Why on earth would you toss it in any case? Functioning chips? Good heavens man, at least give it away. Even ignoring the explosive growth of electronics hacking in the past few years, I'm sure there's someone who would use it for something. > If I ran a surplus store, I'd go broke. It's a tough business. But it'd be fun! (even today I suspect!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:13:21 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:13:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 12, 12 04:03:39 pm Message-ID: > > >> That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the feel > >> of the machine from the comfort of your own home. > >> > >> -- > >> Will > > > > No you can't. You can't learn how to load a card reader, disk pack or even > > line printer paper on any simulator I know of. > > There is a word of mine you may have missed. Look between "get" and "of". I (and I suspect others) diepute the 'most'. I can think of far too many things that a simulator does not provide. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:42:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:42:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Aug 12, 12 05:50:15 pm Message-ID: > That's why I first began making those MMJ (6P6C offset) to 6P6C standard > plug cables. People asked me if I could make cables that could be used Right... > with 6P6C to DE-9 or DB-25 rewirable adapters. I later had enough demand > for them that I began pre-wiring 6P6C DE-9 adapters as H8751-J work-alike > adapters and pairing them up with a cable. These were moderately cheap for > me to make when buying the materials in bulk and they sold for $15-20 in > my eBay store (which covered my costs, including the stuff people often > overlook such as the eBay listing fees and shipping supplies...that is > until eBay raised their fees through the roof). I actually had a hard time > keeping up with initial demand for those cables and shipped them all over > the world. Note that those DE-9 connectors used crimped pins (AMP) and not > soldered/spliced wires. They are a pain to assemble (even with AMP's own > d-sub pin tooling), but I had zero complaints or returns for defects or > bad connections. The great advnatage of soldering the wires to the D connecotr is that it's a lot easier to change them. RS232 seiral interaces and the simular thing on a DE9 connecotr fornd on soem PCs, are notorious for not doing what you alwauys expect :-) I have foudn that if you supply only the 'hard to make' part (in this case criming the MMJ) and let the user do the rest you may well sell a lot fewer cables, but those you sell go to the clueful. Who are not going to complain that the DB25 version of the cable together with a PC printer head didn't let thenm print on their deskjet or whatever. > > My cheap-ish Multicomp (Farnell own-brand) crimp tool claims to do 'DEC > > plugs'. I've never tried it, and have no idea which make of MMJ it likes. > > It has woreked fine on every 4p4c, 6p4c, 6p6c aed 8p8c I've thrown at it > > though. > > Even without seeing it, I would say with 99% certainty that your crimp > tool handles the WE/SS variety and not the AMP/Tyco type plugs. Most all > the "generic" plugs on the market use the WE/SS die nest form, so unless Then it wil ldo. THis is a very genric tool... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:18:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:18:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 12, 12 01:43:11 pm Message-ID: > Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter I have at least one, and maybe 2 (it depends what the Diablo 3000 was marketed as :-)). But theyr'e actually jsut 8-bit computers that happen to run word processing software. Were there ever more 'hardwired' word provessors? -- things that didn't use a standard CPU (or even that didn't use a CPU-type architecture at all). Something like that would be fun. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:48:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:48:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Panasonic HHC technical information In-Reply-To: <1344819288.48363.YahooMailNeo@web140402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "ricardo lopes" at Aug 12, 12 05:54:48 pm Message-ID: > > Hello Tony,=0A= > =0A= > That would be great!=0A= > If somebody don't may you scan it and send by e-mail, please?=0A= I do not have a scanner, nor anything to connect one to. I will ask around to see if anyone can scan if for me, if not, I will have to send it by snail-mail. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:24:21 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:24:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <201208122054.QAA22268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Aug 12, 12 04:54:37 pm Message-ID: > > > Every time I'be both seem an emulator of a chassic machine [...] and > > also run the real hardware myself, I feel the emultor doens't come > > close to the experinece of actually running the classic computer. > > In some respects, of course, it can't. In other respects, it can't > until VR technology gets a lot better. Well, I wastn a simualtor that will give me a painful burn on my hand when i touch the overheting resisotr. I want one that will kick me across the ROM if I hapoen to touch the heatsink on the chopper transistor. That will trip the breaker ot half the house and plunge the room into darkness if I conenct the virtual 'scope to the mains side of the PSU. And so on. > > However, they serve useful purposes nevertheless. In particular, they I do not dispute that. THey are however a pale initation of the real thing. Useful, but by no means the whole stroy. > can give more of a taste of the experience than most people are likely > to get any other way. And to someone who's got the interest potential > but nothing to spark it, it can be that spark. Sure. But given that most peole can run the simualtors at home if they want to, there is little reason for museums to show them (in the same way that sicne anyone can buy a book of reproductions of Old Master paintings, there is litle point in having an art gallery that just displays such books ]1]). The museum should show more -- like the real machine in operation [1] Note that I have said nothign about such books (or indeed simulators) being sold in the appropriate museum shop. That is clearly a Good Thing. > > And, for a hands-on museum, a replica panel backed by an emulator will > be close enough for a lot of people, better in that it's a lot easier > to fix and/or replace if it gets heavy and/or careless use (I'm > thinking schoolkids). Wby not replcia controls (the bit that is going to get the heavy-handed interaction) backed by the real machine? Having seen an R-pi at the weekend, I know hwich out of that and a PDP11 (saY) I'd rather have to keep running. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:55:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:55:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Aug 12, 12 07:46:16 pm Message-ID: > Yep. Even for things where we do have lots of docs, i.e. Tektronix > gear, you will see things like such-and-such an IC is a linear > amplifier and the vendor is.... Tektronix. With no alternate > manufacturer part number listed. Tektronix (and HP, and doubtless many others) did make custom analogue ICs. I don't know who actually fabbed them, but they were a Tektroix design, only sold to Tektronix. So yes, that's a custom part. It probably isn't a standard part that's been selected for some parameter. It happens. There are custom ICs in a lot of machines, what of it? > Great! So how the hell do we know what to use to replace such a > failed linear amplifier? The sam as what you repalce a failed gate array chip with. The original part, if you vcan get it (maybe off a dead board with a different fault). Or you have to spend many enjoyable weeks workign out what it really has to do and then design a replaement. FOr high-seped analogue, that is 'fun'... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:28:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:28:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <01OIZAUIJ21U001P8J@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Aug 12, 12 10:15:06 pm Message-ID: > (I don't know why I am adding to this thread which looks destined to go > on and on and achieve little except to demonstrate that different people > have different ideas on how things should be preserved and that most are > not going to change their minds.) I think that most people here regard a computer as something that runs particualr software, how it runs it is irrelevant. It's the software that htey care about, how the OS wa used, ans so on. I take (as you might expect) a different view. A computer is a complex digital [1] circuit. The fact that it runs softare is aan interesting property, but not the main reason I am interested in it. The cirucitry is what fascinates me. For that reason a simulator is not going to 'do it' for me. [1] Yes, I know there are analogue computers. They are interesting too. But lets not have another tangent... However the analogue parts of a digital computer -- the power supplies, CRT driver circuits, disk drive servos, etc are also certainly of great interest to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:31:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:31:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <20120812151732.F22044@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 12, 12 03:19:46 pm Message-ID: > YOU have a USB port! YEs, but not on a general-purpose computer. On the TV set. According to one of the manuals (I forget if it's the user or service manual) you candownload updated frimware for the main control processor in said TV and store it on a USB memory device under the right filename. Then plug that into said socket and select some option from the TV setup menu and it will re-flash said control processor. I am sure there are various checked made on the firmware file first... Not having any way to download things ot a US Bmemeory deviec, I've never tried it. > (My CAR has one (Prius-V)) Odd.. My father's car has a CAN bus port. And yes I have used it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 14:01:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:01:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090t In-Reply-To: <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 13, 12 00:13:47 am Message-ID: > I dunno Mouse. You and I usually agree on this sort of thing, but > this time I have to disagree. It's a whole lot easier to to sit here in I'm with Mouse on this one. > my underwear at 4AM, click on a listing and have it show up at my door a > week later...in the meantime I can get back to doing real work, and not It's a lot easier _for me_ to pop out and get the darn thing fro a real shop and get on with the work the same day than to order it, have to hang around for the thing to be deleivered, (if I happen to he out at the time, I have a nice long walk to the sorting office to collect said parcel and the itmes they open are not convenient..) , then find the advert mis-described it so it isn't suitable for what I want (whcih I would ahve noticed in the shop,m and so on... > have to deal with the "duhhhhhhhhhhhhh" of the mouth-breathers who work > retail these days. Provided they can grab be the item I ask for from the catalogue, I don't care....Actually, some can't even manage that :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 13:37:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:37:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <4655B56A0189463EA27B7284E6AD8746@G4UGMT41> from "Dave" at Aug 12, 12 11:49:45 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Looking around me, I see : > > > Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels > > > Synchronous seiral interfaces using RS232 levels > > > Asynchronous serial interfaces using RS232 levels > > Did you mean current loop? No, I mentioned those later on. I meant RS422 here (differential drivers/receivers) > > > > I2C interfaces > > > CAN bus > > > The Commodore serial interface bus to printers and disk drives > > > Trasnputer links Asynchornous current loop interfaces > > > 10MBps ethernet (thinwire and twisted pair) > > > HPIL interfaces > > > HP-HIL Interfaces > > > PC-like keyboard interfaces > > > DEC LK100 and LK201 keyboard interfaces > > > Assorted other bit-seiral keyboard interfaces > > > Even a USB port (on the TV, to update its firmware] > > > > YOU have a USB port! > > (My CAR has one (Prius-V)) > > > > Although ANALOG, isn't a POTs line serial? > > I guess so, as is ISDN but its multiplexed... > > > Although not electronic, aren't most cashier queues serial? > > These days you also get various flavours of SATA and SAS, Fibre Channel and > FireWire. In fact as speeds rise serial interfaces tend to become the > interfacee of choice. YEs, but I have none of thsoe aroudn here :-) > > Dave > > P.S. I assume Token Ring and Cambridge Ring are also serial... They are. > PPS And whilst the Terminal/Controller interface on a 3270 may be serial, > the controller itself may interface to the host using the IBM Bus+Tag > channel interface which is a parallel interface.... Indeed. But I doubt anyone disputes the existance of serial <-> parallel inerface devices. Incidentally, the centronics interface (say) is bit-parallel but character-serial (in that you send the characgters one after the other). SOme small strip printers used e.g. for data logging or printing the output from a digital measuring instruemtn (about 40 years ago) wewre chracter-parallel, they had 4 lines on the inerface for each column on the paper (perhaps a total of 64 lines), each set of 4 lines defiend the chracter to appear in that column (normally BCD for the digits with the other 6 codes ebign thigns like '+', '-' blank, etc). The HP59301 'HPINB parallel translator' was actually designed to drive such a printer (HP5055 IIRC) amongst other things, hence the rather odd set of characters it handles in one of its modes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 14:11:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:11:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 12, 12 09:30:08 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/12/12 9:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Brick-and-mortar stores are WAY overrated. (and dying) > > > > I went to three different stores to buy a piece of perf board, and ended > up getting a used one at Halted (with Haltek printed on it!). The section > at Frys was completely empty at the Palo Alto and Sunnyvale store. You are lucky. You ahve (at least) 3 such shops you can get to. I am going to define 'London' as the area I can get to with a London bus Pas (I do not mean the 'City of London', I mean an area about 30 miles by 30 miles. In 'London' I know of preceisely _one_ shop tht sells a reasoanble range of electronic components [1]. I know of no shops that will sell me small-ish qunatiites of common engineering metals (say 1m of 1/2" diamaeter CZ121 bras rodd, or similar free-machining mild steel). I know of no shop that sells 'engineering' tools (lathe and mil lcutting tools, individual sockets, spanenrs, etc). [1[ Maplin stock a very small range of compoennts nwo, and even if the web site shows something, you might find its not stocked in any of the shops. Mind you, they do stock a reasable range of stripboard, including one on an FR4 substrate which is not easy to get elsewhere over here. > You can't really buy a lot of this kind of stuff on line, you need to LOOK > at it to see if you can make it work if it doesn't exactly match. That is athe big proble, particualrly for more 'mechancial' parts like swtiches, knobs, connectors, relays, etc. Long gone are the days when you could wanter ito a chop and say 'gota nythign like this' and they'd find you exactly the part you needed from soem dusty old box in the back room... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 13 14:13:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:13:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <50288880.7080705@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 12, 12 10:54:24 pm Message-ID: > > > Where should I put the four image files? > > You should probably send them to Al Kossow. > > If you send copies to me, I'll start on disassembling them. Would you (or anyone else, but prefereably only one person if I have to post it) like a copy of my RX02 listing, assuming I can lay hands on it? I can either photocopy it and post it, or see if a friend will scan it for me. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 15:03:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:03:31 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5029550E.3060402@neurotica.com> References: , <5028C68D.12434.E3302@cclist.sydex.com>, <5029550E.3060402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5028FB23.20803.DB9ACF@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2012 at 15:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > Why on earth would you toss it in any case? Functioning chips? Good > heavens man, at least give it away. Even ignoring the explosive growth > of electronics hacking in the past few years, I'm sure there's someone > who would use it for something. Okay, let's call your bet. I've got perhaps 16 or 20 Fairchild 93L422 *new* bipolar RAMs in that funny 22 pin 0.400" wide package. Blisteringly fast 45 nsec. (typ. but max. can get as bad as 80 nsec.) access time, 256x4 bit organization dissipating only, oh, about a quarter-watt (if I have my math right) per package. Who wants them enough to pay shipping for them? Who will offer something additional for my time? I can't see me *ever* using these. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 15:06:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:06:41 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 12, 12 01:43:11 pm, Message-ID: <5028FBE1.18186.DE81DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2012 at 19:18, Tony Duell wrote: > Were there ever more 'hardwired' word provessors? -- things that > didn't use a standard CPU (or even that didn't use a CPU-type > architecture at all). Something like that would be fun. Definitely. I think some of the early CPT models were bit-slice. AES had some--and I believe at least one ECL model. Do you want to count the IBM MTST or Mag card units in the list? Many think that word processors were the result of the microprocessor, but that's simply not true. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 15:11:11 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:11:11 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50295468.5010807@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <50295468.5010807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <085D16F7-FEA2-47B7-B3F6-C0338E8C28B8@gmail.com> On Aug 13, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I was referring to the common ones, like Best Buy, that are > everywhere. Stores like the one you describe aren't exactly ubiquitous, > and as far as I'm aware, they never were. They sure aren't. I've never seen anything else like Baynesville on the east coast. It's a shame, because there's a market. I don't know how they stay in business, but it's been the same guys running it since I was a kid, so I assume there's a bit of "labor of love" involved. > That said, though, I lived just south of Baltimore for a decade, and I > really, really wish I'd known about that store! I seem to recall you mentioned Laurel, which is on the other side of the city (Baynesville was up in Towson). It's about a half hour drive (45 minutes in medium traffic), but well worth it. I only knew about it because I grew up in Towson. Most people don't seem to know what it's there for (their sign is a giant 2D rendition of an octal-base tube, which I suspect is lost on most of the customers who come looking for replacement watch batteries), so I hope it stays around for a while longer. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 15:12:46 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:12:46 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3768F8D1-32EF-4004-8A12-BC5A7798D64C@gmail.com> On Aug 12, 2012, at 4:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Aug 2012 at 13:54, William Donzelli wrote: > >> And I will add... >> >>> That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the >>> feel of the machine from the comfort of your own home. > > Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter > collectors, but I've not seen a lot of word processor collections. I've always thought of MS Word as a word-processing simulator. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 15:42:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:42:52 -0700 Subject: Sunday-night repair for Wangtek 5000 series tape drive Message-ID: <5029045C.2273.FFA407@cclist.sydex.com> Last night I pulled out an old Wangtek 5000 series QIC tape drive (uses DC300XL carts) and discovered that the rubber capstan had totally degraded and fell to pieces. After looking at bits of rubber and vinyl hose as possible replacements, I hit on using a plain old vinyl grommet that fit snugly on the bare shaft and, for good measure, added a nitrile O- ring to fill the "slot" in the grommet. Worked like a champ. Maybe this will be useful to others. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 15:57:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:57:49 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5028FB23.20803.DB9ACF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <5028C68D.12434.E3302@cclist.sydex.com>, <5029550E.3060402@neurotica.com> <5028FB23.20803.DB9ACF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50296A4D.3070905@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 04:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Why on earth would you toss it in any case? Functioning chips? Good >> heavens man, at least give it away. Even ignoring the explosive growth >> of electronics hacking in the past few years, I'm sure there's someone >> who would use it for something. > > Okay, let's call your bet. I've got perhaps 16 or 20 Fairchild > 93L422 *new* bipolar RAMs in that funny 22 pin 0.400" wide package. > Blisteringly fast 45 nsec. (typ. but max. can get as bad as 80 > nsec.) access time, 256x4 bit organization dissipating only, oh, > about a quarter-watt (if I have my math right) per package. > > Who wants them enough to pay shipping for them? Who will offer > something additional for my time? I can't see me *ever* using these. There was no bet. I didn't say *I* wanted them, as I have quite enough projects right now. If that weren't the case, I would want them. What you'd get for your time is the knowledge that you didn't throw functional components in the trash. As far as how "desirable" they may or may not be...the fast-growing world of electronics hobbyist doesn't base their component choices on "would I design this into a new commercial product today" metrics. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Aug 13 15:59:30 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201208132059.QAA07029@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> And, for a hands-on museum, a replica panel backed by an emulator >> will be close enough for a lot of people, better in that [...] > Wby not replcia controls (the bit that is going to get the > heavy-handed interaction) backed by the real machine? The most obvious answer is, because they don't have one. I'd rather see a dozen museums running simulator-backed replicas and one running the real thing than a dozen museums without anything of the sort and one running the real thing. > Having seen an R-pi at the weekend, I know hwich out of that and a > PDP11 (saY) I'd rather have to keep running. Yes, I daresay. Personally, if I were in charge of keeping it running, I'd rather have the simulator. Not because it's easier to repair the hardware (on that, I agree with you), but because the exact hardware is irrelevant: I'm reasonably confident I can, if necessary, build a new simulator on whatever the beagleboard/pi/etc du jour is. Until and unless it's no longer possible to get logic-level inputs and outputs, I am confident I can port a simulator to whatever I need to. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 16:13:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:13:49 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <3768F8D1-32EF-4004-8A12-BC5A7798D64C@gmail.com> References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> <3768F8D1-32EF-4004-8A12-BC5A7798D64C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50296E0D.3020508@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 04:12 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the >>>> feel of the machine from the comfort of your own home. >> >> Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter >> collectors, but I've not seen a lot of word processor collections. > > I've always thought of MS Word as a word-processing simulator. He shoots, he scores. -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Aug 13 16:23:56 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:23:56 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <002101cd7719$9cac2eb0$d6048c10$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <002101cd7719$9cac2eb0$d6048c10$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <5029706C.8060904@verizon.net> On 08/10/2012 12:59 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Richard >> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:22 PM >> To: cctalk >> Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 >> >> >> In article <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM>, >> "Andrew Lynch" writes: >> >>> Does anyone know of an X Window server implementation for the NEC 7220 >> GDC? >> >> >> >> It's unlikely that there will be a server implementation for this chip; > rather the >> server implementation would be for a product that used this chip. That >> would typically mean a unix workstation using this chip. >> >> So your first step would be to identify a unix workstation from this time > frame >> that had a graphics board based on this chip and then find an X server for > it. >> If you really want to pursue porting the X server to this chip as a > project, then >> get an older X11 distribution like X11R5 and use this book: >> >> X Window System Server: X Version 11, Release 5, by Elias Israel and Erik >> Fortune Digital Press >> > amp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0139727531&linkCode=as2&tag=le >> galiadulth-20> >> >> I have this book and have read it. It is a very good treatment of how to > port >> the X server to new hardware. If you pursue this, I can help you, I have > done >> X server work in the past. >> >> It is much harder to port the current codebase because of the way they > have >> fractured the distribution. I understand why they did it (decreasing > resources >> at X.org), but it is much, much harder to bring the current X server code > base >> to a new hardware platform than it was before. So far I have been >> unsuccessful in simply compiling it for an existing well supported ubuntu >> distribution due to the disparate dependencies. >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > >> The Computer Graphics Museum >> The Terminals Wiki >> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > > Hi Richard! Thanks! I will look into your recommended book. > > I am not aware of any workstations that used the NEC 7220 GDC. There were > some Multibus implementations of the chip so I suppose it is possible they > exist. Many of the Intel 82720 and NEC uPD7220 boards were highly > specialized niche products so it is entirely possible they exist but are not > in common knowledge. > > http://www.multibus-international.com/int-intel-corp/sbx275 > > On a similar vein, I am aware of X Window(s) server for the VESA API for VGA > boards. Most all VGA boards adhere to the VESA standard and provides quite > a bit of portability although performance is generally fairly low. Would it > be possible/feasible to create a VESA API for a NEC uPD7220A video board? > In other words, is the VESA API inherently VGA MC6845 centric or is it > hardware abstract enough to be ported to other video chips? > > At the N8VEM home brew computing project we already have a NEC uPD7220A > board that works and has been debugged. However creating software for it > has proven to be problematic. > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=ECB%20uPD7220%2 > 0GDC > > I am considering converting the above design to S-100 bus for a companion to > the upcoming S-100 68K CPU board (final board due out later this summer) and > the S-100 80386 CPU board (initial prototype boards just ordered). > > The N8VEM ECB uPD7220A board is a pure 16 color bitmap design. There is no > explicit text character mode. The video memory is theoretically upgradeable > to 256 colors by adding another 4 color planes. Since it uses a BT478 > RAMDAC and VGA compatible dot-clock frequencies it can use 640x480 and > 800x600 displays on regular VGA monitors. > > Thanks for your reply and comments. Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > The biggest differs is the common PC version of VGA the memory is direct accessed (two ported) as stuffing bytes through the 6845 would be inceadibly slow. The Registers are only used to setup the scan rates and other timing parameters. That memory is up the C/D/E 16Kpaged in the upper part of the 1MB memory map. Now the real question is what OS will be used to support this as the 8088/8086 can only address 1MB and none of the LINUX versions fit on 8086 at all (minimum is 386). Also plan on a swap file, you will need room. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 13 16:31:49 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <3768F8D1-32EF-4004-8A12-BC5A7798D64C@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Aug 13, 12 04:12:46 pm" Message-ID: <201208132131.q7DLVnhc8847506@floodgap.com> > > Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter > > collectors, but I've not seen a lot of word processor collections. > > I've always thought of MS Word as a word-processing simulator. Don't play into Tony's hands here. ;) But there are some word-processing units that are unique and collectable (the AlphaSmart and Tandy WP series come to mind). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Actually, we can overcome gravity (just not the paperwork involved). ------- From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Aug 13 16:36:27 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:36:27 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <502613E0.7040900@e-bbes.com> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <502613E0.7040900@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <5029735B.5050509@verizon.net> On 08/11/2012 04:12 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2012-08-10 14:58, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> Does anyone know of an X Window server implementation for the NEC >> 7220 GDC? >> The chip has several names including the Intel 82720, NEC 7220A, NEC >> 7220D, >> uPD7220, uPD72020, etc. Essentially this graphics chip was the main >> rival >> to the MC6845 prior to the domination of the IBM PC architecture for >> microcomputers. > > (I read some of the replies ...) > So, you're not looking for the graphing capabilities of the 7220, > you are looking for a dumb frame buffer. > > And if you cut it down to it, just use a mc6845 to do it (if you > insist on old technology) or go back to the FPGA idea, which would be > my first choice for a frame buffer on any bus. > > I had a 7220 on the mc68000 back then (actually one 7220 for every > color bit) and the interface to the frame buffer was dog slow. > > BTW, wasn't the 7220 also in the rainbows? There should be a lot of > documentation for it there ... > Yes it was though I think the Rainbow used the Z80 as an IOT processor. The video was CGA level not VGA. Doing VGA video makes finding compatible monitors easier (CGA (9pin)went the way of the dodo). That does not require you to do VGA level video. VGA is video side timing issue not so much the bus side. But pushing a lot of bytes through the 7220 at about no less than 800NS per byte (likely 10 to 20x that) to move a megabyte is going to take 10s of seconds as it's all port IO and thats not all that fast. Each color plane needs to be 38400bytes, if you want 8BPP. That means at least three planes. to fill the memory the first time will have to move 115kb, at S100 8086 speeds thats likely to take a while, a long while. All the PC video above CGA was memory mapped as CPUs can read/write ram far faster than funnel everything though an IO port with status check. If you uyse 2 port ram then the 7220 primitives are useless, and all early the PC drivers did that in the CPU not the graphics board logic. Allison > Cheers > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 17:02:33 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 18:02:33 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <201208132131.q7DLVnhc8847506@floodgap.com> References: <201208132131.q7DLVnhc8847506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2AC5B7F3-52E1-46AF-82F8-E4D37E0A0B76@gmail.com> On Aug 13, 2012, at 5:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter >>> collectors, but I've not seen a lot of word processor collections. >> >> I've always thought of MS Word as a word-processing simulator. > > Don't play into Tony's hands here. ;) Oh, I'm just a sucker for a cheap joke, that's all. :-) - Dave From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 17:11:46 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:11:46 -0500 Subject: TO-263 footprint? In-Reply-To: <502871EA.6070600@neurotica.com> References: <502850CE.1060201@neurotica.com> <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> <502871EA.6070600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50297bcf.c99c320a.0694.ffff8185@mx.google.com> At 10:18 PM 8/12/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 08/12/2012 09:31 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> Hey folks! Would anyone happen to have a PCB footprint for a TO-263 > >> package? I'm designing a circuit that will use an LM2577 switching > >> regulator. I've checked on gedasymbols.org to no avail. I'm kinda > >> surprised it's not in the standard library. > > > > TO-263 is also often called D^2PAK. Perhaps these should work. > > > > http://gedasymbols.org/scripts/search.cgi?key=d2pak Now just wait a minute. What package are those symbols for? I'm interested. Sorry about the OT. NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 17:50:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 18:50:06 -0400 Subject: TO-263 footprint? In-Reply-To: <50297bcf.c99c320a.0694.ffff8185@mx.google.com> References: <502850CE.1060201@neurotica.com> <247A22E4-5FF9-4DAE-BCE2-E56534E12244@gmail.com> <502871EA.6070600@neurotica.com> <50297bcf.c99c320a.0694.ffff8185@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5029849E.9060507@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 06:11 PM, Tom wrote: >> >> Hey folks! Would anyone happen to have a PCB footprint for a TO-263 >> >> package? I'm designing a circuit that will use an LM2577 switching >> >> regulator. I've checked on gedasymbols.org to no avail. I'm kinda >> >> surprised it's not in the standard library. >> > >> > TO-263 is also often called D^2PAK. Perhaps these should work. >> > >> > http://gedasymbols.org/scripts/search.cgi?key=d2pak > > Now just wait a minute. What package are those symbols for? I'm > interested. Sorry about the OT. gEDA. http://www.geda-project.org/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 19:28:29 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:28:29 -0700 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> I have nothing to do with it but, it is sort of a nice setup if you're near Hollsopple, PA. Seems to come with lots of test gear of some sort. http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 btw, is everyone else having trouble with pictures on ebay today ? I can't see them unless I go to the actual auction page. From chrise at pobox.com Mon Aug 13 19:31:38 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:31:38 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: References: <50288880.7080705@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120814003136.GQ26103@n0jcf.net> On Monday (08/13/2012 at 08:13PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Where should I put the four image files? > > > > You should probably send them to Al Kossow. > > > > If you send copies to me, I'll start on disassembling them. > > Would you (or anyone else, but prefereably only one person if I have to > post it) like a copy of my RX02 listing, assuming I can lay hands on it? > I can either photocopy it and post it, or see if a friend will scan it > for me. I've passed the baton to others with the binary images now but I think it would be great to have a second source just to confirm that the code I read I read from the PROMs matches somewhere else. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 19:38:36 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:38:36 -0500 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: yea ebay is flaky today prolly someone spilled their coffe on the keyboard again nice rack though On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 7:28 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have nothing to do with it but, it is sort of a nice setup if you're > near Hollsopple, PA. Seems to come with lots of test gear of some sort. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-**PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-** > DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-**DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 > > btw, is everyone else having trouble with pictures on ebay today ? I can't > see them unless I go to the actual auction page. > > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 19:45:32 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:45:32 -0700 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50299FAC.5050404@gmail.com> On 8/13/2012 5:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea ebay is flaky today prolly someone spilled their coffe on the keyboard > again It's funny how eBay without pictures is basically Craigslist only really slow. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 19:50:50 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:50:50 -0500 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50299FAC.5050404@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> <50299FAC.5050404@gmail.com> Message-ID: i don't really notice it being anyslower but then the wifi were i am staying is messed On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 7:45 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/13/2012 5:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> yea ebay is flaky today prolly someone spilled their coffe on the keyboard >> again >> > > It's funny how eBay without pictures is basically Craigslist only really > slow. > From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 20:32:08 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 18:32:08 -0700 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029AA98.80309@gmail.com> On 8/13/2012 5:28 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have nothing to do with it but, it is sort of a nice setup if you're > near Hollsopple, PA. Seems to come with lots of test gear of some sort. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 > > > btw, is everyone else having trouble with pictures on ebay today ? I > can't see them unless I go to the actual auction page. > > > Yeah, that's a nice machine, and the price seems about right. Then again, once you factor in shipping to my neck of the woods (Seattle) it's considerably more prohibitive :). Wish stuff like that would show up here more often, I'd love a system like that. - Josh From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 20:36:10 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:36:10 -0400 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2012, at 8:28 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have nothing to do with it but, it is sort of a nice setup if you're near Hollsopple, PA. Seems to come with lots of test gear of some sort. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 Oh man, I'm drooling... and I'm more or less local. Pity I don't have anywhere near the current bidding price to spend on it, or I'd bite. - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 20:37:18 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:37:18 -0500 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <5029AA98.80309@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> <5029AA98.80309@gmail.com> Message-ID: what would shipping cost 400 500 bucks? On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 8/13/2012 5:28 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> I have nothing to do with it but, it is sort of a nice setup if you're >> near Hollsopple, PA. Seems to come with lots of test gear of some sort. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-**PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-** >> DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-**DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 >> >> btw, is everyone else having trouble with pictures on ebay today ? I >> can't see them unless I go to the actual auction page. >> >> >> >> > Yeah, that's a nice machine, and the price seems about right. Then again, > once you factor in shipping to my neck of the woods (Seattle) it's > considerably more prohibitive :). Wish stuff like that would show up here > more often, I'd love a system like that. > > - Josh > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 20:47:00 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 18:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <5029706C.8060904@verizon.net> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <002101cd7719$9cac2eb0$d6048c10$@YAHOO.COM> <5029706C.8060904@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1344908820.65089.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have photos of the NEC APC video boards if anyone wanted to take a gander. Hey Andy, why don't you consider creating an IBM PGC type graphics controller for your rig. Sounds like a lot of fun to me. I have one, and a Vermont Microsystems clone, 80188 based if you need any inspiration. From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 20:54:28 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 18:54:28 -0700 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> <5029AA98.80309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029AFD4.1050302@gmail.com> On 8/13/2012 6:37 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what would shipping cost 400 500 bucks? Last time I had something like that shipped (an 11/40 + RK05, RL02, from SC) it cost right around $600. - Josh > > On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 8/13/2012 5:28 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> I have nothing to do with it but, it is sort of a nice setup if you're >>> near Hollsopple, PA. Seems to come with lots of test gear of some sort. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-**PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-** >>> DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-**DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 >>> >>> btw, is everyone else having trouble with pictures on ebay today ? I >>> can't see them unless I go to the actual auction page. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Yeah, that's a nice machine, and the price seems about right. Then again, >> once you factor in shipping to my neck of the woods (Seattle) it's >> considerably more prohibitive :). Wish stuff like that would show up here >> more often, I'd love a system like that. >> >> - Josh >> From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 21:01:31 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ Message-ID: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I never plugged it in. Really don't want to (but I could be coaxed, no pun intended though it would be a poor, spurious one). Judging by the prices I've seen these things go for on ePay, I would think anything is worth 100$, but I *may* decide to cut someone a break, especially if they picked it up. This unit is in rough shape, don't even know if it works. Some of the metal side and rear paneling has accumulated rust, one piece a lot of, but nothing a proper restoration couldn't remedy I don't think. The front bezel is all funky, a noticeable crack, though not too large, very brown. I have pictures somewhere. There appears to be a baby opossum living in mom's garage, so I was apprehensive about dragging the unit out for yet more pictures today. ?If I have to ship it, I'm going to tack something on (many thousands of dollars likely). ?Your thoughts are welcome :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 21:25:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:25:23 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <085D16F7-FEA2-47B7-B3F6-C0338E8C28B8@gmail.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <50295468.5010807@neurotica.com> <085D16F7-FEA2-47B7-B3F6-C0338E8C28B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029B713.2020106@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 04:11 PM, David Riley wrote: >> I was referring to the common ones, like Best Buy, that are >> everywhere. Stores like the one you describe aren't exactly ubiquitous, >> and as far as I'm aware, they never were. > > They sure aren't. I've never seen anything else like Baynesville > on the east coast. It's a shame, because there's a market. I > don't know how they stay in business, but it's been the same guys > running it since I was a kid, so I assume there's a bit of "labor > of love" involved. No doubt. And though big profits can be nice, what better reason to run a company? >> That said, though, I lived just south of Baltimore for a decade, and I >> really, really wish I'd known about that store! > > I seem to recall you mentioned Laurel, which is on the other side > of the city (Baynesville was up in Towson). It's about a half > hour drive (45 minutes in medium traffic), but well worth it. I > only knew about it because I grew up in Towson. Most people don't > seem to know what it's there for (their sign is a giant 2D > rendition of an octal-base tube, which I suspect is lost on most > of the customers who come looking for replacement watch batteries), > so I hope it stays around for a while longer. I didn't spot that sign the whole time I lived near Baltimore, but it is a big area. I hung out with a large number of technical people (people who would recognize an octal-base tube) who grew up in the between-DC-Baltimore area and nobody ever mentioned it. (and these are people who WOULD have) It's a shame they didn't get the word out more effectively. I'll make it a point to look for the place the next time I'm over that way. I think I'm closer to your area now than I am Baltimore. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 21:27:33 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:27:33 -0700 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <5029AFD4.1050302@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> <5029AA98.80309@gmail.com> <5029AFD4.1050302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029B795.5030000@gmail.com> On 8/13/2012 6:54 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 8/13/2012 6:37 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> what would shipping cost 400 500 bucks? > > Last time I had something like that shipped (an 11/40 + RK05, RL02, > from SC) it cost right around $600. > > - Josh > Freight stuff is so hard to predict. It's basically still operated like something out of the 1960's. Brokers and middlemen. Seems to be getting better though. You should just call a few listed online and ask. You can save a ton if you don't need a lift gate. Like $150 on each end. Looks like that extra gear is all data acquisition stuff. Wonder what software it has on it and what it was being used for. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 13 21:36:37 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:36:37 -0400 Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5029B9B5.6000102@atarimuseum.com> Chris, If you get no takers, see if Evan from MARCH will get someone to buy it for their museum Chris Tofu wrote: > I never plugged it in. Really don't want to (but I could be coaxed, no pun intended though it would be a poor, spurious one). Judging by the prices I've seen these things go for on ePay, I would think anything is worth 100$, but I *may* decide to cut someone a break, especially if they picked it up. This unit is in rough shape, don't even know if it works. Some of the metal side and rear paneling has accumulated rust, one piece a lot of, but nothing a proper restoration couldn't remedy I don't think. The front bezel is all funky, a noticeable crack, though not too large, very brown. I have pictures somewhere. There appears to be a baby opossum living in mom's garage, so I was apprehensive about dragging the unit out for yet more pictures today. > If I have to ship it, I'm going to tack something on (many thousands of dollars likely). > > Your thoughts are welcome :) > > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 21:51:57 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:51:57 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5029B713.2020106@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <50295468.5010807@neurotica.com> <085D16F7-FEA2-47B7-B3F6-C0338E8C28B8@gmail.com> <5029B713.2020106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5029BD4D.5080800@gmail.com> On 8/13/2012 7:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I didn't spot that sign the whole time I lived near Baltimore, but it > is a big area. I hung out with a large number of technical people > (people who would recognize an octal-base tube) who grew up in the > between-DC-Baltimore area and nobody ever mentioned it. (and these are > people who WOULD have) It's a shame they didn't get the word out more > effectively. I'll make it a point to look for the place the next time > I'm over that way. I think I'm closer to your area now than I am > Baltimore. -Dave When I posted about a surplus place in an early response I had a moments hesitation. I didn't want it to get too popular or well known. There is a limited amount of stock and I want it to be there when I go. If the store goes out of business then it's all gone so, that's stupid but, I did think about not posting for a second. My precious....it's all mine. mine. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 21:54:54 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <5029B9B5.6000102@atarimuseum.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029B9B5.6000102@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1344912894.69606.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Chris, ? If you get no takers, see if Evan from MARCH will get someone to buy it for their museum C: O BOY O BOY. I'll be sure and hold my breath for that one! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 22:03:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:03:17 -0400 Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 10:01 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I never plugged it in. Really don't want to (but I could be coaxed, no pun intended though it would be a poor, spurious one). Judging by the prices I've seen these things go for on ePay, I would think anything is worth 100$, but I *may* decide to cut someone a break, especially if they picked it up. This unit is in rough shape, don't even know if it works. Some of the metal side and rear paneling has accumulated rust, one piece a lot of, but nothing a proper restoration couldn't remedy I don't think. The front bezel is all funky, a noticeable crack, though not too large, very brown. I have pictures somewhere. There appears to be a baby opossum living in mom's garage, so I was apprehensive about dragging the unit out for yet more pictures today. > If I have to ship it, I'm going to tack something on (many thousands of dollars likely). > > Your thoughts are welcome :) Pics, chassis type, configuration? A "MicroVAX-II" could be anything from a single box that I can pick up and carry by myself with ease, or 3-4 short racks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 22:13:30 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1344914010.25398.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire ? Pics, chassis type, configuration?? A "MicroVAX-II" could be anything from a single box that I can pick up and carry by myself with ease, or 3-4 short racks. C: I'll send you pictures if you want big boy. ?I don't know what it is. Only that it rolls. So swing by and pick it up yourself then. But it would be easier if you rolled it out to your car. And I turned on the DisplayWriter today, and it still does something. On the screen. "80 01 01" or something close. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 13 22:17:20 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:17:20 -0700 Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 11:03 PM -0400 8/13/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > Pics, chassis type, configuration? A "MicroVAX-II" could be anything >from a single box that I can pick up and carry by myself with ease, or >3-4 short racks. Good point, I saw that and immediately translated it in my mind to a BA123, but who knows what it really is without more details. Of course it could be something really interesting like my VAXstation II/RC. :-) For those that don't know it's a BA23 with some of the slots filled so you can't use them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 22:33:52 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:33:52 -0500 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Lee Courtney wrote: > I posted some 1980's vintage HP3000 marketing shots at Flicker: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBmrAyC > > Enjoy! Lee - thanks for posting these. Especially love the datacenter scenes with the gobs of 9-track and pack drives. And there are some bizarro terminals (the little ones with the shrouds) that I've never seen before. -- jht From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 22:39:48 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:39:48 -0700 Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5029C884.1060700@gmail.com> On 8/13/2012 8:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Of course it could be something really interesting like my > VAXstation II/RC. :-) For those that don't know it's a BA23 with some > of the slots filled so you can't use them. > > Zane > Does it have the original epoxy covered backplane ? From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 23:08:33 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:08:33 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> On 8/13/2012 8:33 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Lee Courtney > wrote: >> I posted some 1980's vintage HP3000 marketing shots at Flicker: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBmrAyC >> >> Enjoy! > Lee - thanks for posting these. Especially love the datacenter scenes > with the gobs of 9-track and pack drives. And there are some bizarro > terminals (the little ones with the shrouds) that I've never seen > before. > Being a little young to have actually in data centers like these but, having worked with some of the gear later and worked in more modern data centers, how are they working in all that noise ? I realize these are ad shots but, all the the normal operation shots make it look like that is how it was done. Well, minus any women of course. How loud was it really ? Say in something like this http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/IBM7094.jpg I've never seen much soundproofing on mainframe gear so, I assume it must have been really loud in there. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 23:09:48 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:09:48 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5029BD4D.5080800@gmail.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <50295468.5010807@neurotica.com> <085D16F7-FEA2-47B7-B3F6-C0338E8C28B8@gmail.com> <5029B713.2020106@neurotica.com> <5029BD4D.5080800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <703703E2-8D19-47F9-A34C-B9B1AE1790AA@gmail.com> On Aug 13, 2012, at 10:51 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/13/2012 7:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I didn't spot that sign the whole time I lived near Baltimore, but it is a big area. I hung out with a large number of technical people (people who would recognize an octal-base tube) who grew up in the between-DC-Baltimore area and nobody ever mentioned it. (and these are people who WOULD have) It's a shame they didn't get the word out more effectively. I'll make it a point to look for the place the next time I'm over that way. I think I'm closer to your area now than I am Baltimore. -Dave > > When I posted about a surplus place in an early response I had a moments hesitation. I didn't want it to get too popular or well known. There is a limited amount of stock and I want it to be there when I go. If the store goes out of business then it's all gone so, that's stupid but, I did think about not posting for a second. My precious....it's all mine. mine. Yeah, this isn't a surplus place. Their semiconductors are just Jim-Pak stuff (though there is a "bargain bin" in a corner with their older stock, which still included a few 4164s and similar last I checked), and everything else is retail. OK prices for most cables with a decent selection, and they do have the aforementioned SATA<->IDE adaptors and other, more esoteric ones. There's a nice selection of "cut your own" RF cable, breadboarding supplies, etc. In any case, certainly a place that would benefit from more business, not less. Ironically, though, they haven't carried tubes for probably over a decade. - Dave From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 13 23:14:57 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:14:57 -0400 Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <1344912894.69606.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029B9B5.6000102@atarimuseum.com> <1344912894.69606.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5029D0C1.6010801@snarc.net> >>>> Chris, If you get no takers, see if Evan from MARCH will get someone to buy it for their museum >> C: O BOY O BOY. I'll be sure and hold my breath for that one! No idea what you mean by that. Anyway, we already have a working Microvax II. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 23:28:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:28:37 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 12:08 AM, mc68010 wrote: > Being a little young to have actually in data centers like these but, > having worked with some of the gear later and worked in more modern data > centers, how are they working in all that noise ? I realize these are ad > shots but, all the the normal operation shots make it look like that is > how it was done. Well, minus any women of course. > > How loud was it really ? Say in something like this > http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/IBM7094.jpg > > > I've never seen much soundproofing on mainframe gear so, I assume it > must have been really loud in there. With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 23:36:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:36:40 -0400 Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <1344914010.25398.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> <1344914010.25398.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5029D5D8.7060301@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2012 11:13 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Pics, chassis type, configuration? A "MicroVAX-II" could be > anything from a single box that I can pick up and carry by myself > with ease, or 3-4 short racks. > > C: I'll send you pictures if you want big boy. Good computer porn is ALWAYS welcome here. > I don't know what it is. Only that it rolls. So swing by and pick it > up yourself then. But it would be easier if you rolled it out to your > car. And I turned on the DisplayWriter today, and it still does > something. On the screen. "80 01 01" or something close. Is that a ROM copyright date maybe? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon Aug 13 23:45:24 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:45:24 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5029D7E4.1020806@gorge.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/14/2012 12:08 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> Being a little young to have actually in data centers like these but, >> having worked with some of the gear later and worked in more modern data >> centers, how are they working in all that noise ? I realize these are ad >> shots but, all the the normal operation shots make it look like that is >> how it was done. Well, minus any women of course. >> >> How loud was it really ? Say in something like this >> http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/IBM7094.jpg >> >> >> I've never seen much soundproofing on mainframe gear so, I assume it >> must have been really loud in there. > With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. > > -Dave > I always liked the sound of the vacuum coming on after mounting the tape and the satisfying Shhhh, FOOP then the tape advancing to the BOT marks. Of course, if it didn't mount, you got that disappointing POP, flap flap flap as the tape went into the column and the vacuum fans shut down. -jim From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Aug 13 23:50:15 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <5029D5D8.7060301@neurotica.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> <1344914010.25398.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029D5D8.7060301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1344919815.65969.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire On the screen. "80 01 01" or something close. ? Is that a ROM copyright date maybe? C: I don't think the DW is?that old. Regardless another owner of the same machine might recognize it. ?Rather I think it indicates the position of the cursor maybe. Something like that. It is a word processor after all. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 13 23:51:39 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:51:39 -0700 Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <5029C884.1060700@gmail.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> <5029C884.1060700@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:39 PM -0700 8/13/12, mc68010 wrote: >On 8/13/2012 8:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Of course it could be something really interesting like my >>VAXstation II/RC. :-) For those that don't know it's a BA23 with >>some of the slots filled so you can't use them. >> >>Zane >> > >Does it have the original epoxy covered backplane ? Yes. I even have the original monitor, though I think it needs recapped. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 13 23:54:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:54:24 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> References: , , <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50297790.17910.2C1A5FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2012 at 21:08, mc68010 wrote: > How loud was it really ? Say in something like this > http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/IBM > 7094.jpg You have to remember that each one of those drives has a vacuum pump for the columns. And most likely a fan. The noise level was a loud-ish "white noise", punctuated by louder noises, like printers, punches or readers. A lot of people didn't mind it, but I could only take a few hours at a time before I needed a break. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 23:54:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:54:51 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029D7E4.1020806@gorge.net> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029D7E4.1020806@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5029DA1B.5070700@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 12:45 AM, jimpdavis wrote: >>> Being a little young to have actually in data centers like these but, >>> having worked with some of the gear later and worked in more modern data >>> centers, how are they working in all that noise ? I realize these are ad >>> shots but, all the the normal operation shots make it look like that is >>> how it was done. Well, minus any women of course. >>> >>> How loud was it really ? Say in something like this >>> http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/IBM7094.jpg >>> I've never seen much soundproofing on mainframe gear so, I assume it >>> must have been really loud in there. >> With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. >> > I always liked the sound of the vacuum coming on after mounting the tape > and the satisfying Shhhh, FOOP then the tape advancing to the BOT marks. > Of course, if it didn't mount, you got that disappointing POP, flap flap > flap as the tape went into the column and the vacuum fans shut down. Yes, sounds like an overgrown coffee percolator gone horribly, horribly wrong! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 13 23:58:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:58:20 -0400 Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <1344919815.65969.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> <1344914010.25398.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029D5D8.7060301@neurotica.com> <1344919815.65969.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5029DAEC.7020205@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 12:50 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > > > On the screen. "80 01 01" or something close. > > Is that a ROM copyright date maybe? > > C: I don't think the DW is that old. Regardless another owner of the same machine might recognize it. > > Rather I think it indicates the position of the cursor maybe. Something like that. It is a word processor after all. Ahh, gotcha, The "01 01" part would make sense in that case I guess. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 00:03:47 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:03:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Lance Lyon wrote: >> We certainly don't need SATA, but we have it anyway. > > Seriously, what's there to dislike about it? Faster, hot swappable, > smaller cabling - the haters will just keep on hating anything new > unfortunately. The only thing I dislike about SATA is how hard drive manufacturers decided that once they were making SATA drives that they no longer had any reason to make PATA drives. There are a lot of devices (not just computers) that use PATA hard drives and replacing those drives as they age is becoming incredibly difficult. Those SATA to PATA "adapters" simply do not work correctly, especially for higher speed devices that make use of DMA. [If there is even room to fit an adapter at all anyway, which often in embedded applications there is not.] From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 00:09:49 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:09:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: rough Microvax II in NJ In-Reply-To: <1344919815.65969.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344909691.39073.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029BFF5.1060600@neurotica.com> <1344914010.25398.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5029D5D8.7060301@neurotica.com> <1344919815.65969.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > > On the screen. "80 01 01" or something close. > > ? Is that a ROM copyright date maybe? > > C: I don't think the DW is?that old. Regardless another owner of the same machine might recognize it. > > ?Rather I think it indicates the position of the cursor maybe. Something like that. It is a word processor after all. Actually, it /is/ that old, but I don't think that is a copyright date. http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/pc/pc_8.html What parts of the system do you have? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBM_Displaywriter.jpg From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 00:14:59 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:14:59 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> On 8/13/2012 9:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. -Dave Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into the racks. The density is so much greater now though. It is insanely loud. I just look at these pictures and wonder how it compares. That is still a lot of fans and machines grinding away. Everyone always looks so calm and like it isn't in the pictures though. Looks like they can talk normally and not have to scream. From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Aug 14 00:24:17 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:24:17 +0200 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201208140524.q7E5OHCk003662@ls-al.eu> Mark Benson wrote: > > http://www.cablegear.co.uk/modular-crimping-tool-for-modular-plugs.html > > These are what I have, work like a charm and cheap enough without being rubbish quality. > That one doesn't seem to do MMJ? At least, the description doesn't show. re, Sander From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Aug 14 00:30:27 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:30:27 +0200 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> <50288880.7080705@brouhaha.com> <20120813111523.GJ22505@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <201208140530.q7E5URNB014280@ls-al.eu> Richard wrote: > > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/legalize/for_bitsavers/bits/DEC/rx02-proms.zip FTFY, Sander From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 00:34:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:34:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/12/2012 08:13 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>>> [...run eight parallel data pairs...] >>>> The problem is that in general you can't [as speeds rise, skew and >>>> crosstalk get bad]. That's why we have gone SATA rather than PATA. >>> Well that was one of the reasons. ;) ATA/IDE was one of the >>> worst-designed interconnects in the history of this industry. Even >>> the PC weeniez knew it had to go. SATA, for all of its faults, is a >>> godsend! >> >> A godsend...to hardware makers and others who benefit from forced >> obsolescence. > > I'm talking about its technical implementation, not the business > implications. ATA was very much at the "end of its road" in terms of > its design by, say, 1993 or so. We saw how long it lasted after that, > for no good reason. Meh... You could say the same thing about single ended SCSI though. The reason SCSI was able to last is that it continued to evolve. Parallel ATA on the other hand, evolved differently, mainly because of the consumer computer market. The irony is towards the end of ATA's widespread use, it had evolved to the point where it had a lot in common with single ended SCSI, but because of the way of had been forced to conform to existing standards, it retained some major flaws. Look at the UDMA 80-wire cables for UDMA-66 and faster. The industry didn't want to change from the 40-pin 2.54mm connectors, but needed a ground wire between each of the data lines to avoid crosstalk. SCSI on the other hand had done this for years, even with good old 50-wire ribbon cable. In order for ATA to do this so late in the game, special wire and special connectors were required, which were not only much more expensive and difficult to assemble, but they had more long term reliability issues as well. ATA drives were also speaking SCSI towards the end, just look at all the widespread implementation of ATAPI in not only cdrom and dvdrom drives, but even hard disks. At least people wised up and decided maybe the primary ATA/IDE hard drive really should be on the far end of the ribbon cable. With 40-wire cables, the convention had been to put the primary drive in the middle (which can be problematic since you can get signal reflections in that loose ribbon cable "tail"). When the industry switched to the UDMA 80-wire cables, the convention changed to putting the primary drive on the end of the cable instead of the middle (and this was enforced with the use of those proprietary ribbon cable connectors since the primary and secondary connectors omit different pins). From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 00:35:59 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:35:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > That said, AMP plugs have some benefits (such as the double strain reliefs on > the 8P8C plugs) and there are tons of their connectors on the surplus market. > You can also be certain that when they say they have 50 microns of gold > plating over nickel, over phosphor bronze, that that's what you are really > getting. Some of the really cheap Chinese-made plugs on the other hand are > just gold flash over brass, and you can pick these out pretty easily when you > unplug a cable and find that the contacts have corroded green right through > the gold plating. This is why I'm so picky when it comes to using decent > quality modular plugs and contacts, even though to some people it might seem > as though I'm being a little _too_ picky ;) Whoops, make that 50 micro inches of gold plating, not 50 microns. 50 micro inches is roughly 2 microns... From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 00:37:02 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:37:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, TeoZ wrote: > From: "Mouse" > >> I don't hate the appearance of SATA, not per se. I hate the >> disappearance of IDE. Not because I think it's a great interface, but >> because it's an existing interface with a huge installed base, and >> desupporting it this fast I have trouble seeing as anything less than a >> deliberate attempt to obsolesce existing hardware. *That*, I hate. >> > > Don't they make SATA to IDE converters for under $3 shipped from China? They generally don't work properly. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 00:44:36 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:44:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <5029735B.5050509@verizon.net> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <502613E0.7040900@e-bbes.com> <5029735B.5050509@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, allison wrote: > Yes it was though I think the Rainbow used the Z80 as an IOT processor. > The video was CGA level not VGA. Doing VGA video makes finding > compatible monitors easier (CGA (9pin)went the way of the dodo). That > does not require you to do VGA level video. You actually can get LCD displays that accept CGA (and MDA) signals but they cost more than a typical VGA display. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 00:56:59 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:56:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> People asked me if I could make cables that could be used with 6P6C to >> DE-9 or DB-25 rewirable adapters. I later had enough demand for them >> that I began pre-wiring 6P6C DE-9 adapters as H8751-J work-alike >> adapters and pairing them up with a cable. > > The great advnatage of soldering the wires to the D connecotr is that > it's a lot easier to change them. RS232 seiral interaces and the simular > thing on a DE9 connecotr fornd on soem PCs, are notorious for not doing > what you alwauys expect :-) 99% of the people who wanted a DE-9 adapter wanted a way to use a PC as a terminal/console for a system that had a MMJ connector. A lot of people were using laptops. Soldered adapters wouldn't have been of any benefit to those types of end-users since they needed adapters for that one specific application. Even with crimped pins, it isn't hard to change an adapter if you need to later, so long as you have an insertion-extraction tool for the pins. Using solder-type DE-9 connectors would have been more expensive and far more time consuming to assemble, especially in any sort of volume. > I have foudn that if you supply only the 'hard to make' part (in this > case criming the MMJ) and let the user do the rest you may well sell a > lot fewer cables, but those you sell go to the clueful. Who are not > going to complain that the DB25 version of the cable together with a PC > printer head didn't let thenm print on their deskjet or whatever. I didn't have any complains with the cables I made but if someone had asked I could have made up a modular cable with only one end terminated. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 01:00:43 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:00:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: <201208140524.q7E5OHCk003662@ls-al.eu> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> <201208140524.q7E5OHCk003662@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Sander Reiche wrote: > Mark Benson wrote: > >> http://www.cablegear.co.uk/modular-crimping-tool-for-modular-plugs.html >> >> These are what I have, work like a charm and cheap enough without being rubbish quality. > > That one doesn't seem to do MMJ? At least, the description doesn't show. If you look closely at the photo, the 6P6C nest is dual marked 'DEC'. They just make the tab opening slightly larger to accommodate the offset retention tab. The Paladin crimp tools that look very similar are made the same way. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 01:06:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:06:19 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> References: , <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com>, <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029886B.24328.3037EAF@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2012 at 22:14, mc68010 wrote: > Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into > the racks. The density is so much greater now though. It is insanely > loud. I just look at these pictures and wonder how it compares. That > is still a lot of fans and machines grinding away. Everyone always > looks so calm and like it isn't in the pictures though. Looks like > they can talk normally and not have to scream. Not scream, but raise your voice somewhat. I'd say that the constant noise component was in the 80-85 dB range. Some folks used to wear those yellow foam sound-deadening earplugs if an extended stay was anticipated. We had a big open box of them in the office. It wasn't so much that it was bad for your hearing, but it was like slowly boiling your nerves, at least for me. --Chuck From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue Aug 14 01:07:08 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:07:08 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029EB0C.1050900@gorge.net> mc68010 wrote: > On 8/13/2012 9:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. -Dave > > Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into > the racks. The density is so much greater now though. It is insanely > loud. I just look at these pictures and wonder how it compares. That > is still a lot of fans and machines grinding away. Everyone always > looks so calm and like it isn't in the pictures though. Looks like > they can talk normally and not have to scream. > Having worked in a server / rack environment, I would say that the niose level is way higher than in the raised floor days. The rack noise is a loud, unchanging roar, with occasional punctuation of chillers moving up and down a notch. Back then, the noise in the machine room was aurally interesting and gave you a clue to when things ran off the tracks. Line printers are most notable.When a AWOL job starts slewing paper with a single character printed per-page, That was your problem. -jim. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Aug 14 01:13:16 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:13:16 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 12, 12 01:43:11 pm Message-ID: <02D967A6E2BD40CBA0E5DD464D42F473@MailBox> Word processors - I have three Decmate, DecmateII and DecmateIII plus the DEC Daisy wheel printer (Awaiting restoration) to go with them. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 13 August 2012 19:18 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: To all with interest in preservation (more) > Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter I have at least one, and maybe 2 (it depends what the Diablo 3000 was marketed as :-)). But theyr'e actually jsut 8-bit computers that happen to run word processing software. Were there ever more 'hardwired' word provessors? -- things that didn't use a standard CPU (or even that didn't use a CPU-type architecture at all). Something like that would be fun. -tony From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 01:13:25 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:13:25 +0100 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: <201208140524.q7E5OHCk003662@ls-al.eu> References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> <201208140524.q7E5OHCk003662@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <977199B5-4ECB-4235-86D1-579833987F10@gmail.com> On 14 Aug 2012, at 06:24, Sander Reiche wrote: > Mark Benson wrote: >> >> http://www.cablegear.co.uk/modular-crimping-tool-for-modular-plugs.html >> >> These are what I have, work like a charm and cheap enough without being rubbish quality. >> > > That one doesn't seem to do MMJ? At least, the description doesn't show. They do, I own a pair :) The thing to look for is on the side that does the 6P (RJ-11/RJ-12) plugs there's a small plate with a screw in the middle that you have to remove to do MMJs. They also usually say '6P/DEC' on them. Most of that style RJ crimpers I've seen have it but it's worth checking if you buy elsewhere. In the case of those particular ones they do MMJs just fine, . I think one of the reasons a lot of people consider that MMJ crimps are rare is that a lot of retailers never bother to list it as a capability so you have to squint at the photo to see if they have the little plate or the DEC label stamped on them, or e-mail the seller and ask (only to find they have no clue what an MMJ is, usually). -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 01:44:03 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:44:03 +0100 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> <201208140524.q7E5OHCk003662@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: On 14 Aug 2012, at 07:00, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Sander Reiche wrote: >> Mark Benson wrote: >> >>> http://www.cablegear.co.uk/modular-crimping-tool-for-modular-plugs.html >>> >>> These are what I have, work like a charm and cheap enough without being rubbish quality. >> >> That one doesn't seem to do MMJ? At least, the description doesn't show. > > If you look closely at the photo, the 6P6C nest is dual marked 'DEC'. They just make the tab opening slightly larger to accommodate the offset retention tab. The Paladin crimp tools that look very similar are made the same way. Yup, pop the little plate off and they work just fine. Also (in the UK) I found these: http://www.networkstoreonline.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=NS-236F%2FM&x=0&y=0 Cheap die-based crimpers that have a die set for DEC. It seems a lot of places label the capability as DEC not MMJ sot hat might help. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 01:54:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:54:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: from "Tothwolf" at Aug 11, 12 08:29:45 pm, Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > As someone who has done this recently, I have a few suggestions, but you > have to buy some stuff. Isn't that how it always is though? :) > First and foremost, I didn't have a crimper that would work with mmj. > You can use just a standard rj11/rj12/rj21 crimper if you are willing to > break of the clip, but I didn't want that. > I bought this crimper. Its expensive, but cheap crimpers make a > frustrating experience. > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012YO83I/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00 That's a Paladin Tools 8000 series crimp frame with a 2067 (MMJ/DEC) die set. http://paladin-tools.com/view_category.php?id=75 http://paladin-tools.com/view_tool.php?id=156&parent_id=223 I own a bunch of the 8000 series crimp frames myself (so many of them in fact that I have no idea how many I actually own now). As far as interchangeable die crimp tools go, I think these are probably the best out there. It will also accept dies from a number of different manufacturers including Ideal and Greenlee. Another really nice tool is the GMP modular plug presser. These use a single die instead of the more common two-part die sets. The tool itself is one of the more expensive ones, but they can be had for cheap if you watch the surplus market. It does carry a lifetime warranty though. http://gmptools.com/nf/index_MPP.htm > This cable: > http://www.computercablestore.com//1000FT_Silver_Satin_Modul_PID2.aspx > > These connectors: > http://www.computercablestore.com//Modular_Connectors_RJ1112_PID2061.aspx > > These modular adapters (I know they look male, but its because they use > the same image for both male and female): > http://www.computercablestore.com//Modular_Adapter_Kit_DB9_F_PID958.aspx Those prices are pretty good. At the time I bought 6P6C to DE-9 adapters, rewirable MMJ to DE-9 adapters were expensive and had become very hard to find. > H8571-J female DB9 RS232 to MMJ adapter > > For most of us at this moment the most important MMJ adapter is the > adapter to connect a normal PC to a DEC MMJ cable. The original part > number for this adapter is H8571-J. This adapter has a female DB9 > connector on one side, and a female MMJ socket on the other. The wiring > is explained in the diagram. H8571J adapter, PC RS232 serial port to MMJ 'DE-9', not 'DB-9'... > The H8571-J adapter shown here can for example be used to connect a DEC > printer with serial MMJ cable to a normal PC RS232 port. Note the > connection between pin 1, 6 and 8 in the RS232 connector at the PC side. > This connects the printer DTR line through the cross cable BC16E to the > PC's DSR, CTS and CD inputs. Some programs need these connections to > prevent paper-out and printer off line messages. Here are what the genuine DEC H8571-J adapters look like: DEC H8571-J rev A http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/H8571-J_rev_A.jpg DEC H8571-J rev B http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/H8571-J_rev_B.jpg http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/H8571-J_rev_B_bags.jpg Anyone care to guess how many adapters are in the bin? [If you are one of the handful of people who already know, don't give it away.] Those NOS H8571-J rev B adapters are actually available FS/FT [absolutely no resellers!], but they aren't cheap (I used to sell them for $30 in my eBay store). I literally spent a small fortune on them to keep them away from the gold scrappers... For the MicroVAX II end of the cable, for a MMJ cable you would want a DEC H8571-B. http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/H8571-B.jpg http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/H8571-B_naked.jpg [That 'naked' H8571-B was already sans it's outer plastic shell when I obtained it mixed in with some other random DEC parts. There isn't much to those adapters, just a DE-9S and a MMJ jack.] MicroVAX to PC serial cable: http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/MicroVAX_PC_serial_cable.jpg http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/MicroVAX_PC_serial_cable_connectors.jpg This cable is wired per the diagram that can be found at Chuck's House of VAX http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/panels.htm which was originally posted here on classiccmp. I made this as a one-off cable long before I was ever able to obtain proper H8571-B and H8571-J MMJ adapters. It worked great, but less than 6 months later I got my hands on my first H8571-B and then maybe a year or so later my first H8571-J. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 01:59:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:59:51 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5029F767.4000101@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 01:34 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >>>>>> [...run eight parallel data pairs...] >>>>> The problem is that in general you can't [as speeds rise, skew and >>>>> crosstalk get bad]. That's why we have gone SATA rather than PATA. >>>> Well that was one of the reasons. ;) ATA/IDE was one of the >>>> worst-designed interconnects in the history of this industry. Even >>>> the PC weeniez knew it had to go. SATA, for all of its faults, is a >>>> godsend! >>> >>> A godsend...to hardware makers and others who benefit from forced >>> obsolescence. >> >> I'm talking about its technical implementation, not the business >> implications. ATA was very much at the "end of its road" in terms of >> its design by, say, 1993 or so. We saw how long it lasted after that, >> for no good reason. > > Meh... You could say the same thing about single ended SCSI though. Sure...then we moved to LVD. > The > reason SCSI was able to last is that it continued to evolve. Parallel > ATA on the other hand, evolved differently, mainly because of the > consumer computer market. That was one force, but I'd say its evolutionary path was forced upon it by its architecture. There really weren't very many ways for it to evolve and still be ATA. The move from CHS to LBA was a huge, huge change...and there really weren't too many others that could be made. Using stuff like the Chip Select lines for additional bits of block address is a right naughty kludge, to say the least. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 02:01:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 03:01:51 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 01:14 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/13/2012 9:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. -Dave > > Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into > the racks. Nobody I know does that, and I certainly don't. > The density is so much greater now though. It is insanely > loud. I just look at these pictures and wonder how it compares. That is > still a lot of fans and machines grinding away. Everyone always looks so > calm and like it isn't in the pictures though. Looks like they can talk > normally and not have to scream. It is definitely different now. We went from a small number of very large machines (with large-diameter, slower-turning fans) to a very large number of very small machines (with tiny, screaming high-pitched fans). Now of course, with virtualization, the pendulum is swinging back the other way, at least somewhat. I'm seeing fewer and fewer 1U machines in racks, and more and more 3U-5U machines in their place, each replacing twenty or thirty of the 1U machines. And they have bigger slower-turning fans. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 02:03:50 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:03:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5029550E.3060402@neurotica.com> References: from David Riley at "Aug 13, 12 08:29:55 am", <201208131330.q7DDU6m86553840@floodgap.com> <5028C68D.12434.E3302@cclist.sydex.com> <5029550E.3060402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/13/2012 12:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> But I can empathize with those trying to sell stuff now. If I look in >> my own stuff, I ask myself "Who wants bipolar RAM any more?" Once very >> expensive, now practically worthless. Yet I can't bring myself to toss >> it. > > Why on earth would you toss it in any case? Functioning chips? Good > heavens man, at least give it away. Even ignoring the explosive growth > of electronics hacking in the past few years, I'm sure there's someone > who would use it for something. > >> If I ran a surplus store, I'd go broke. It's a tough business. > > But it'd be fun! (even today I suspect!) Sometimes I think there has to be a way we could have an online global inventory system for those of us with large stashes of components. Keeping it updated might be a major pain though. I fear some reseller would at some point also try to find a way to take advantage of it as some resellers already tried here on the email list many many years ago. (Some of my FT boards never netted the 'trade' part and I later discovered the boards that I sent the guy on eBay...after that I actually stopped bothering to participate here for awhile.) From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue Aug 14 02:03:29 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:03:29 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <02D967A6E2BD40CBA0E5DD464D42F473@MailBox> References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 12, 12 01:43:11 pm <02D967A6E2BD40CBA0E5DD464D42F473@MailBox> Message-ID: <5029F841.20609@gorge.net> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Word processors - I have three Decmate, DecmateII and DecmateIII plus the > DEC Daisy wheel printer (Awaiting restoration) to go with them. > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 13 August 2012 19:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: To all with interest in preservation (more) > >> Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter > I have at least one, and maybe 2 (it depends what the Diablo 3000 was > marketed as :-)). But theyr'e actually jsut 8-bit computers that happen > to run word processing software. > > Were there ever more 'hardwired' word provessors? -- things that didn't > use a standard CPU (or even that didn't use a CPU-type architecture at > all). Something like that would be fun. > > > -tony > > I think the IBM mag card word processors and most notably Wang used a TTL or simpler logic based architecture in their WP. I am most likely wrong, but others will clarify. -jim From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 02:07:24 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 08:07:24 +0100 Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> <201208140524.q7E5OHCk003662@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: On 14 Aug 2012, at 07:00, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Sander Reiche wrote: >> Mark Benson wrote: >> >>> http://www.cablegear.co.uk/modular-crimping-tool-for-modular-plugs.html >>> >>> These are what I have, work like a charm and cheap enough without being rubbish quality. >> >> That one doesn't seem to do MMJ? At least, the description doesn't show. > > If you look closely at the photo, the 6P6C nest is dual marked 'DEC'. They just make the tab opening slightly larger to accommodate the offset retention tab. The Paladin crimp tools that look very similar are made the same way. For those of you in the US who haven't foregone eBay... Item 261062036144 -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 02:08:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:08:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <2086E84FD4D44112BF35FB83500C109E@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <201208130443.AAA27656@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2086E84FD4D44112BF35FB83500C109E@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, TeoZ wrote: > From: "Mouse" > >> Come to think of it, there's one small brick-and-mortar I know that >> might be willing to dig one up for me. I'll have to ask. > > Actually they are on ebay for $2.45 shipped and work bidirectional. > > Example: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-TO-Serial-ATA-I-II-Hard-Drive-HDD-Converter-Convert-Cable-/271019005197 Yesh. Are they using salvaged 40-pin IDS connectors? That thing looks awful... That particular adapter is the type that plugs into the motherboard. The adapters that plug into the SATA drive and provide a 40-pin connector seem to be much more common. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 02:10:42 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:10:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5029174D.9020300@bitsavers.org> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <201208130443.AAA27656@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2086E84FD4D44112BF35FB83500C109E@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5029174D.9020300@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/12/12 10:08 PM, TeoZ wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-TO-Serial-ATA-I-II-Hard-Drive-HDD-Converter-Convert-Cable-/271019005197 > > cute, esp this part > > "Provide adjustable TX signal amplitude and pre-emphasis level" > > I wonder how you set that. > > Anyone try these with 1tb+ drives? I've had very poor results with these sort of adapters even with small hard drives and optical drives. A lot of them don't seem to handle DMA and ATAPI commands very well. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 02:28:36 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:28:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC MMJ plugs In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> <3CC26522-794D-42B1-978F-73F53053D00D@gmail.com> <50262D37.5020806@gmail.com> <201208140524.q7E5OHCk003662@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Mark Benson wrote: > On 14 Aug 2012, at 07:00, Tothwolf wrote: > >> If you look closely at the photo, the 6P6C nest is dual marked 'DEC'. >> They just make the tab opening slightly larger to accommodate the >> offset retention tab. The Paladin crimp tools that look very similar >> are made the same way. > > Yup, pop the little plate off and they work just fine. Also (in the UK) I found these: > > http://www.networkstoreonline.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=NS-236F%2FM&x=0&y=0 > > Cheap die-based crimpers that have a die set for DEC. It seems a lot of > places label the capability as DEC not MMJ sot hat might help. Actually, if those are Paladin 2067 dies, the quality is actually quite good. Those will fit the 8000 and 1300 series crimp frames (although I don't recommend the 1300, since they are hard on your hands). From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 14 02:36:01 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:36:01 -0700 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5029FFE1.4090309@jwsss.com> On 8/13/2012 5:28 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 > I didn't have any problem with picture load speed. The same vendor has a Gerber printer for sale as well for $499 http://www.ebay.com/itm/200806422757 There is interesting analog gear at the top of the system. From that I'm not sure if it would be part of a system which needed the Gerber, given its use as a circuit board process tool, though. Jim From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 14 02:51:43 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:51:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <502882D0.30306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/12/12 9:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Brick-and-mortar stores are WAY overrated. (and dying) > > I went to three different stores to buy a piece of perf board, and ended > up getting a used one at Halted (with Haltek printed on it!). The > section at Frys was completely empty at the Palo Alto and Sunnyvale > store. > > I can get it from dozens of places on line, if I wanted to wait a couple > of days and pay shipping, though I probably spent more than that on gas. > > I was just complaining on Saturday that the price for things like > wire-wrap sockets have tripled in the last couple of years, if you can > even find them. The parts stocks in the valley surplus places are drying > up. Halted was completely out of stock of 9 through 25 pin D connectors. > This is bad news for finding old parts that used to be really common to > keep systems going. You can't really buy a lot of this kind of stuff on > line, you need to LOOK at it to see if you can make it work if it > doesn't exactly match. Surplus parts are ending up in one of three places now: either going to China as scrap, the "Gold Fever" basement hoarders, or eBay. Sometimes parts cycle around between these three places. I've gotten some very good deals on eBay from retired guys who were selling off their entire shack of 20-30 years worth of parts, but these kinds of buys don't turn up all that often. These came from one such individual: http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/ECG_073_tobacco_can.jpg http://strudel (dot) ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/ECG_073_tobacco_can_lid.jpg Gold! Gold! ;P ...probably what most of those gold scrappers are smokin' too ;) I don't remember now how many ECG 073 SCRs are in that can, but there are quite a lot. I used a counting scale to count them once and I wrote it down in one of my notebooks. I'm not even sure why they would have had that many SCRs. Were these used for TV repair maybe? From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 03:06:17 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:06:17 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> On 8/14/2012 12:01 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/14/2012 01:14 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 8/13/2012 9:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. -Dave >> Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into >> the racks. > Nobody I know does that, and I certainly don't. > I know colo where people wear the big airport looking headsets when they are going back there for awhile. We're talking many hundred to thousands of rack servers in a giant cement room. Sure you aren't going to die or anything but, it ain't good for your ears either. If you have to scream at the guy ten feet away it's probably loud enough to use some sort of hearing protection. If you're back there for 20 minutes who cares. Probably still isn't great for your ears but, whatever. That's what made me wonder about the sound level in these old pictures with people working at their desks calmly like they were in any old office. I've been around similar gear one piece at a time and they were pretty loud. Still the frequency of the sound is much lower though. Might make it much easier to take. These small high rpm fans are piercing. I could never imagine sitting at a desk answering a phone among them. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 14 03:06:30 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 04:06:30 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> <5029F767.4000101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9BA7AF5CF5FE49829A6179781531E745@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 2:59 AM Subject: Re: To all with interest in IBM 7090 > On 08/14/2012 01:34 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >>> I'm talking about its technical implementation, not the business >>> implications. ATA was very much at the "end of its road" in terms of >>> its design by, say, 1993 or so. We saw how long it lasted after that, >>> for no good reason. >> >> Meh... You could say the same thing about single ended SCSI though. > > Sure...then we moved to LVD. There was a brief hop to just differential SCSI (higher voltage then LVD which is how LVD got its name). HVD and SE/LVD don't like each other while the other SCSI standards did with some tweeking. >> The >> reason SCSI was able to last is that it continued to evolve. Parallel >> ATA on the other hand, evolved differently, mainly because of the >> consumer computer market. > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 03:12:15 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:12:15 -0700 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <5029FFE1.4090309@jwsss.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> <5029FFE1.4090309@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <502A085F.3000103@gmail.com> On 8/14/2012 12:36 AM, jim s wrote: > > On 8/13/2012 5:28 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 >> > I didn't have any problem with picture load speed. > > The same vendor has a Gerber printer for sale as well for $499 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/200806422757 > > There is interesting analog gear at the top of the system. From that > I'm not sure if it would be part of a system which needed the Gerber, > given its use as a circuit board process tool, though. > > Jim Looks like someone bought the PDP already. I figured it wouldn't last long. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 03:32:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 04:32:53 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <9BA7AF5CF5FE49829A6179781531E745@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> <5029F767.4000101@neurotica.com> <9BA7AF5CF5FE49829A6179781531E745@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <502A0D35.8060907@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 04:06 AM, TeoZ wrote: >>>> I'm talking about its technical implementation, not the business >>>> implications. ATA was very much at the "end of its road" in terms of >>>> its design by, say, 1993 or so. We saw how long it lasted after that, >>>> for no good reason. >>> >>> Meh... You could say the same thing about single ended SCSI though. >> >> Sure...then we moved to LVD. > > There was a brief hop to just differential SCSI (higher voltage then LVD > which is how LVD got its name). HVD and SE/LVD don't like each other > while the other SCSI standards did with some tweeking. This overlapped entirely with SE SCSI to the end, though. HVD was used in very high-end machines (Tandem and Cray come to mind) for the better noise immunity for longer cable runs. It really wasn't a hop from SE to HVD then to LVD. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 03:35:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 04:35:29 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <502A0DD1.60009@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 04:06 AM, mc68010 wrote: >>>> With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. -Dave >>> Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into >>> the racks. >> Nobody I know does that, and I certainly don't. > > I know colo where people wear the big airport looking headsets when they > are going back there for awhile. We're talking many hundred to thousands > of rack servers in a giant cement room. Sure you aren't going to die or > anything but, it ain't good for your ears either. If you have to scream > at the guy ten feet away it's probably loud enough to use some sort of > hearing protection. If you're back there for 20 minutes who cares. > Probably still isn't great for your ears but, whatever. > > That's what made me wonder about the sound level in these old pictures > with people working at their desks calmly like they were in any old > office. I've been around similar gear one piece at a time and they were > pretty loud. Still the frequency of the sound is much lower though. > Might make it much easier to take. These small high rpm fans are > piercing. The pitch plays a big part of it. I never got a headache in "big fan" machine rooms, but I sometimes do in "hundreds of 1U machines" machine rooms. It's not like it kills you...those are probably the same guys who wear goggles to mow the lawn. (or their bosses are just that paranoid) Having a headache is, for me at least, far preferable to having sweaty hair and ears from wearing a headset. > I could never imagine sitting at a desk answering a phone > among them. That's just not possible. In some datacenters we had special phones with high-volume headsets and focused microphones. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Aug 14 03:43:41 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:43:41 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2bd983a3-328c-4f05-ae6b-c536c1f0c708@email.android.com> Certainly. There were a whole class of souped up typewriters. They ranged from the microcontrolled LCD line editor capability of Mum's Panasonic, up the PC like Amstrad PCW line -- which were basically just stripped down PCs. ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> Or word processors (who collects those?) Plenty of typewriter > >I have at least one, and maybe 2 (it depends what the Diablo 3000 was >marketed as :-)). But theyr'e actually jsut 8-bit computers that happen > >to run word processing software. > >Were there ever more 'hardwired' word provessors? -- things that didn't > >use a standard CPU (or even that didn't use a CPU-type architecture at >all). Something like that would be fun. > > >-tony -- Colin From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 03:46:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 04:46:10 -0400 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <502A085F.3000103@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> <5029FFE1.4090309@jwsss.com> <502A085F.3000103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <502A1052.9030103@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 04:12 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> There is interesting analog gear at the top of the system. From that >> I'm not sure if it would be part of a system which needed the Gerber, >> given its use as a circuit board process tool, though. > > Looks like someone bought the PDP already. I figured it wouldn't last long. ...and I'm looking at the Gerber! (the PDP-11 had nothing to do with it) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 09:07:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: free book Voice Technology 1983 Message-ID: <1344953244.34134.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> For shipping. Ill need a check. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 14 09:26:32 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:26:32 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5029BD4D.5080800@gmail.com> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <24F33639E4F540BCABE11E08D8434EE8@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201208130400.AAA27084@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50287EFB.9000300@neurotica.com> <50295468.5010807@neurotica.com> <085D16F7-FEA2-47B7-B3F6-C0338E8C28B8@gmail.com> <5029B713.2020106@neurotica.com> <5029BD4D.5080800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <502A6018.70809@bitsavers.org> On 8/13/12 7:51 PM, mc68010 wrote: > When I posted about a surplus place in an early response I had a moments hesitation. I didn't want it to get too popular or well known. This list has existed for years.. http://www.junktronix.com/svss/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 14 09:35:11 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:35:11 -0700 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <502A621F.8000608@bitsavers.org> >>> Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into >>> the racks. >> Nobody I know does that, and I certainly don't. >> You should. I've ended up with a notch in my hearing from that. Not good for someone who also does audio work. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Aug 14 10:10:45 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 08:10:45 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120814081045.1fd2e2d7@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Lee Courtney wrote: > I posted some 1980's vintage HP3000 marketing shots at > Flicker:?http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBmrAyC > > Enjoy! Did indeed! Makes my HP3000s "feel" proud ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 10:45:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 08:45:38 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <02D967A6E2BD40CBA0E5DD464D42F473@MailBox> References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com>, , <02D967A6E2BD40CBA0E5DD464D42F473@MailBox> Message-ID: <502A1032.31343.127C7B@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2012 at 7:13, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Word processors - I have three Decmate, DecmateII and DecmateIII plus > the DEC Daisy wheel printer (Awaiting restoration) to go with them. That's probably because you collect anything DEC. But how about, CPT, Artec, Lanier, Exxon (yes, the oil company), Harris...? (I don't count the Xerox Star, because it was something very different) --Chuck From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Aug 14 11:08:51 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:08:51 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <502A1032.31343.127C7B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com> <02D967A6E2BD40CBA0E5DD464D42F473@MailBox> <502A1032.31343.127C7B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 14 August 2012 16:45, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Aug 2012 at 7:13, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Word processors - I have three Decmate, DecmateII and DecmateIII plus >> the DEC Daisy wheel printer (Awaiting restoration) to go with them. > > That's probably because you collect anything DEC. But how about, > CPT, Artec, Lanier, Exxon (yes, the oil company), Harris...? > > (I don't count the Xerox Star, because it was something very > different) One of these! http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Infoton_I200 With no upper case option.... (Upper case, an OPTION? Egads!) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 14 11:22:24 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:22:24 -0600 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay In-Reply-To: <5029AFD4.1050302@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> <5029AA98.80309@gmail.com> <5029AFD4.1050302@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <5029AFD4.1050302 at gmail.com>, Josh Dersch writes: > On 8/13/2012 6:37 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > what would shipping cost 400 500 bucks? > > Last time I had something like that shipped (an 11/40 + RK05, RL02, from > SC) it cost right around $600. For comparison, shipping an SGI Origin 2000 sized rack (comparable in size to the 11/34 shown, not sure about weight) from Florida to Salt Lake City was going to cost me $1,000. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 11:45:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:45:24 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com>, <502A1032.31343.127C7B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <502A1E34.3880.493219@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2012 at 17:08, John Many Jars wrote: > One of these! > > http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Infoton_I200 > > With no upper case option.... (Upper case, an OPTION? Egads!) That's not a word processor, but only a terminal. Back then, it was not at all uncommon to see lowercase as an option. Most printer trains in use then were uppercase; systems using 6-bit characters hadn't totally disappeared yet. Uppercase was quite readable using a 5x7 pixel font, whereas lowercase requires descenders. In the day of expensive technology, it made a huge amount of sense. Or is this another case of "you had to be there"? --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 14 11:46:17 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:46:17 -0600 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <201208140530.q7E5URNB014280@ls-al.eu> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> <50288880.7080705@brouhaha.com> <20120813111523.GJ22505@n0jcf.net> <201208140530.q7E5URNB014280@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: In article <201208140530.q7E5URNB014280 at ls-al.eu>, Sander Reiche writes: > Richard wrote: > > > > > > > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/legalize/for_bitsavers/bits/DEC/rx02-p roms.zip Yes, I changed the directory name to be consistent with bitsavers bits directory. That URL will eventually die once it moves to a permanent home on bitsavers anyway. Nothing under for_bitsavers is peremanent. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 12:16:03 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:16:03 -0700 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502A621F.8000608@bitsavers.org> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> <502A621F.8000608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com> On 8/14/2012 7:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>>> Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into >>>> the racks. >>> Nobody I know does that, and I certainly don't. >>> > > You should. > I've ended up with a notch in my hearing from that. > Not good for someone who also does audio work. > We used to never wear ear plugs back when I played in bands and went to shows either. It wasn't "cool". Myself and lots of friends have paid the price for that. My hearing is hit and miss over 10k now and I have a slight case of tinnitus in one ear. Length of exposure plays a large part in damage. Working in a colo with no hearing protection for 8 hours probably not a good thing. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Aug 14 13:02:43 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:02:43 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <5028FB23.20803.DB9ACF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5028C68D.12434.E3302@cclist.sydex.com> <5029550E.3060402@neurotica.com> <5028FB23.20803.DB9ACF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120814180243.GG30965@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Chuck Guzis [120813 18:01]: > On 13 Aug 2012 at 15:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Why on earth would you toss it in any case? Functioning chips? Good > > heavens man, at least give it away. Even ignoring the explosive growth > > of electronics hacking in the past few years, I'm sure there's someone > > who would use it for something. > > Okay, let's call your bet. I've got perhaps 16 or 20 Fairchild > 93L422 *new* bipolar RAMs in that funny 22 pin 0.400" wide package. > Blisteringly fast 45 nsec. (typ. but max. can get as bad as 80 > nsec.) access time, 256x4 bit organization dissipating only, oh, > about a quarter-watt (if I have my math right) per package. > > Who wants them enough to pay shipping for them? Who will offer > something additional for my time? I can't see me *ever* using these. > > --Chuck > Hi Chuck, I'd be happy to take them for the cost of shipping. Funds are strapped right now but we can talk about something extra too if want. I'd hate to see these (or anything) tossed... Todd From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Aug 14 14:22:16 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:22:16 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 13 Aug 2012, at 10:14 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into the racks. In the 1970s we did as well; sound attenuating headsets even in a room with only a handful of machines (three DG boxes, a HP2000, a HP3000, maybe a half a dozen disks). The A/C and fans were the worst, although the switching power supplies in the Novas screamed pretty badly (one could tell how hard the machine was working by pitch). I had more that a couple of those headsets rupture their gel onto the side of my head. I believe the worst noise I ever encountered was from CDC-badged tape drives which sounded like banshees when rewinding. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 14 14:58:30 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 19:58:30 +0000 Subject: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:33 AM On 08/14/2012 04:06 AM, TeoZ wrote: >> There was a brief hop to just differential SCSI (higher voltage then >> LVD which is how LVD got its name). HVD and SE/LVD don't like each >> other while the other SCSI standards did with some tweeking. > This overlapped entirely with SE SCSI to the end, though. HVD was > used in very high-end machines (Tandem and Cray come to mind) for the > better noise immunity for longer cable runs. It really wasn't a hop > from SE to HVD then to LVD. Also the XKL Toad-1 System (4 x differential FASTWIDE SCSI-2 ports). An absolute bear to find drives for. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 15:01:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:01:56 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31D2A300-07A0-41ED-87FE-AB3B2194EB9F@gmail.com> On Aug 14, 2012, at 1:14 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/13/2012 9:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> With all those 729 magtape drives? Deafening. -Dave > > Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into the racks. The density is so much greater now though. It is insanely loud. I just look at these pictures and wonder how it compares. That is still a lot of fans and machines grinding away. Everyone always looks so calm and like it isn't in the pictures though. Looks like they can talk normally and not have to scream. That probably wouldn't sell many computers. - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 14 15:03:36 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 13:03:36 -0700 Subject: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <502AAF18.3060704@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/12 12:58 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Also the XKL Toad-1 System (4 x differential FASTWIDE SCSI-2 ports). > An absolute bear to find drives for. > Weird Stuff had a bunch of 'em. Were you able to get any of them to work that I sent you? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 14 15:08:58 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:08:58 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>>>That is why simulators are so important. You can get most of the feel >>>>of the machine from the comfort of your own home. >>>> >>>No you can't. You can't learn how to load a card reader, disk pack or even >>>line printer paper on any simulator I know of. >>> >>> >>There is a word of mine you may have missed. Look between "get" and "of". >> >I (and I suspect others) diepute the 'most'. I can think of far too many >things that a simulator does not provide. > Tony (and others), this response is for all .... >>>Every time I'be both seem an emulator of a chassic machine [...] and >>>also run the real hardware myself, I feel the emultor doens't come >>>close to the experinece of actually running the classic computer. >>> >>> >>In some respects, of course, it can't. In other respects, it can't >>until VR technology gets a lot better. >> >> > >Well, I wastn a simualtor that will give me a painful burn on my hand >when i touch the overheting resisotr. I want one that will kick me across >the ROM if I hapoen to touch the heatsink on the chopper transistor. That >will trip the breaker ot half the house and plunge the room into darkness >if I conenct the virtual 'scope to the mains side of the PSU. And so on. > > > >>However, they serve useful purposes nevertheless. In particular, they >> >> > >I do not dispute that. THey are however a pale initation of the real >thing. Useful, but by no means the whole stroy. > > > >>can give more of a taste of the experience than most people are likely >>to get any other way. And to someone who's got the interest potential >>but nothing to spark it, it can be that spark. >> >> > >Sure. But given that most peole can run the simualtors at home if they >want to, there is little reason for museums to show them (in the same >way that sicne anyone can buy a book of reproductions of Old Master >paintings, there is litle point in having an art gallery that just >displays such books ]1]). The museum should show more -- like the real >machine in operation > >[1] Note that I have said nothign about such books (or indeed simulators) >being sold in the appropriate museum shop. That is clearly a Good Thing. > > > >>And, for a hands-on museum, a replica panel backed by an emulator will >>be close enough for a lot of people, better in that it's a lot easier >>to fix and/or replace if it gets heavy and/or careless use (I'm >>thinking schoolkids). >> >> > >Wby not replcia controls (the bit that is going to get the heavy-handed >interaction) backed by the real machine? Having seen an R-pi at the >weekend, I know hwich out of that and a PDP11 (saY) I'd rather have to >keep running. > ... three posts to which you replied ... >>(I don't know why I am adding to this thread which looks destined to go >>on and on and achieve little except to demonstrate that different people >>have different ideas on how things should be preserved and that most are >>not going to change their minds.) >> >I think that most people here regard a computer as something that runs >particualr software, how it runs it is irrelevant. It's the software that >htey care about, how the OS wa used, ans so on. > >I take (as you might expect) a different view. A computer is a complex >digital [1] circuit. The fact that it runs softare is aan interesting >property, but not the main reason I am interested in it. The cirucitry is >what fascinates me. For that reason a simulator is not going to 'do it' >for me. > >[1] Yes, I know there are analogue computers. They are interesting too. >But lets not have another tangent... However the analogue parts of a >digital computer -- the power supplies, CRT driver circuits, disk drive >servos, etc are also certainly of great interest to me. > ... about. Also, Tony, I suspect that most of the members of the classiccmp list share your opinion about simulators or emulators - both programs performing essentially the same function. As Tony has stated, he is interested MOSTLY in the hardware of a computer right down to the individual circuits. YES, software must be used to run any computer. HOWEVER, for Tony and many other individuals (probably most of the individuals on this list), the hardware is the key aspect of the combined hardware / software partnership. Since almost all emulators or simulators have as their primary focus (usually the only focus) the accurate execution of any given hardware instruction, aspects such as noise, blowing circuits, etc. are almost always beyond the capability of an emulator or simulator. Consequently, as a software addict, I can appreciate why Tony and other hardware addicts find that an emulator or simulator will never be suffice in a manner that is satisfactory to run the software of any given computer. And since I have encountered no one else to share RT-11 enhancements and bug fixes, it is assumed that no one else is an RT-11 software addict. (If I am incorrect, please let me know!!!) On the other hand, as a software addict, when I use the Ersatz-11 emulator, the ONLY result which is important is that the screen displays results which have the identical information content. The screen may look a bit different and the keyboard may have a slightly different configuration. However, that is not at all important to a software addict like myself. INDEED, sometimes an emulator may even provide resources that the real (in this case a PDP-11/83) computer hardware is unable to provide. Executing the code 100 times as fast is not a minor advantage. Having disk storage with 1,000,000 times the capacity and 200 times the throughput is also not a minor advantage. Having access to RAM which is 1000 times the capacity of the 4 MB available on the real computer hardware is also not a minor advantage. And last in the list at this time (but certainly not the only other advantage) and certainly not least is the support that Ersatz-11 provides to access the screens of up to TWELVE ANSI (or VT420 compatible) type terminals by the simple use of the key combination for which Ersatz-11 currently supports screens of up to 255 columns by 60 lines. (For those interested, one of the KED variants which I modified called K42.SAV now supports screens of that size - if anyone had read this far!!) To make the point in a different manner, a software addict is interested in the manner in which the combined software of the operating system, device drives, utility and application programs interact to produce a useful result. Just as the combined hardware components produce the result of running the software, the combinations of how the software runs produce results which sometimes seem far more intelligent than the individuals who produce all that hardware / software partnership. On many occasions, the programs which I produce are far more able (especially with adequate error checks) to produce results than what I ever planned in the first place. In short, as a software addict, an emulator such as Ersatz-11 is far better than sliced bread. I realize that probably most emulators may have a few things that cause a bit of a problem for which there is usually a very easy way to work around the problem. And Ersatz-11 is no exception. BUT, without Ersatz-11, more than half the fun of making enhancements and fixing bugs in RT-11 would be missing. So while I wish the hardware addicts well, viva the software addicts!!!! Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 15:26:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:26:17 -0400 Subject: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <502AB469.4060904@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 03:58 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> There was a brief hop to just differential SCSI (higher voltage then >>> LVD which is how LVD got its name). HVD and SE/LVD don't like each >>> other while the other SCSI standards did with some tweeking. > >> This overlapped entirely with SE SCSI to the end, though. HVD was >> used in very high-end machines (Tandem and Cray come to mind) for the >> better noise immunity for longer cable runs. It really wasn't a hop >> from SE to HVD then to LVD. > > Also the XKL Toad-1 System (4 x differential FASTWIDE SCSI-2 ports). > An absolute bear to find drives for. I have a very large quantity of 68-pin HVD 4.3GB drives. Contact me off-list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 15:30:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:30:45 -0400 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> <502A621F.8000608@bitsavers.org> <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 01:16 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>>>> Now days people often put on hearing protection before for going into >>>>> the racks. >>>> Nobody I know does that, and I certainly don't. >>>> >> >> You should. >> I've ended up with a notch in my hearing from that. >> Not good for someone who also does audio work. >> > > We used to never wear ear plugs back when I played in bands and went to > shows either. It wasn't "cool". Myself and lots of friends have paid the > price for that. My hearing is hit and miss over 10k now and I have a > slight case of tinnitus in one ear. Length of exposure plays a large > part in damage. Working in a colo with no hearing protection for 8 hours > probably not a good thing. Probably not, but I also don't know anyone who works in the machine room *all day* unless something really BIG has gone wrong. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 15:31:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:31:36 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <502A1032.31343.127C7B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com>, , <02D967A6E2BD40CBA0E5DD464D42F473@MailBox> <502A1032.31343.127C7B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <502AB5A8.6040902@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Word processors - I have three Decmate, DecmateII and DecmateIII plus >> the DEC Daisy wheel printer (Awaiting restoration) to go with them. > > That's probably because you collect anything DEC. Let's not forget that the DECmate machines are PDP-8s inside. They can even run OS/8. (well, sort of; a hacked-up, barely-functional version of OS/8) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 15:20:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:20:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <201208132059.QAA07029@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Aug 13, 12 04:59:30 pm Message-ID: > Personally, if I were in charge of keeping it running, I'd rather have > the simulator. Not because it's easier to repair the hardware (on > that, I agree with you), but because the exact hardware is irrelevant: > I'm reasonably confident I can, if necessary, build a new simulator on > whatever the beagleboard/pi/etc du jour is. Until and unless it's no > longer possible to get logic-level inputs and outputs, I am confident I > can port a simulator to whatever I need to. Hmm... My issue would be wit hthe interface to the 'panel'. If you were doign this 10 years ago, most likely the simulator would run on a PC, and you'd interface the panel to the parallel port. Possibly bit-banging a serial data stream over a couple of the pins to talk to shift registers driving the blinkenlights. Today, msot likely you'd interface that panel to USB. I suspect that the changes necessary (both hardware and software) to move from 'bit banged on a parelel port; to 'USB' are considerable. Possible but nto trivial. I suspect hat keeping the rela machine running is a lot easier. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 15:29:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:29:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <5029735B.5050509@verizon.net> from "allison" at Aug 13, 12 05:36:27 pm Message-ID: > Yes it was though I think the Rainbow used the Z80 as an IOT processor. > The video was CGA level No it was not!. It was CGA (US TV, RS170) scan rates, but it was _analogue_ RGB, with sung-on-green. It was not TTL levels like CGA. > not VGA. Doing VGA video makes finding compatible monitors easier (CGA > (9pin)went the way of > the dodo). That does not require you to do VGA level video. Actually, they are not hard to get in the UK, provided you don't mind having to spearate the sunc from the green signal. Most TVs -- even modern ones -- have at least one SCART socket with analogue RGB inpots, and most TVs over here can hadnle US scan rates. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 15:32:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:32:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Panasonic HHC technical information Message-ID: Could the chap who wanted scehamtics, etc for the HHC please get in touch with me. It turns out it's been scanned and can be quite easily sent to you. I've lost your address... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 15:15:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:15:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <3768F8D1-32EF-4004-8A12-BC5A7798D64C@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Aug 13, 12 04:12:46 pm Message-ID: > I've always thought of MS Word as a word-processing simulator. No it's not. Simulators at least try to do what the thing they simulator does. M$ Word is more like a food processor. It turns whatever you give it into a dog's dinner. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 14 15:56:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:56:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <2bd983a3-328c-4f05-ae6b-c536c1f0c708@email.android.com> from "Colin Eby" at Aug 14, 12 09:43:41 am Message-ID: > > Certainly. There were a whole class of souped up typewriters. They > ranged from the microcontrolled LCD line editor capability of Mum's That's stil;l a 'genral-purpose processor running software' type of design. I was thinking of things that didn't use a stnadrd microprocesosr/microcontroller, but had custom hardare designed for word processing (like, people have told me, som IBM and Wang machines). Obviously you'd not od that now, and problaby not in the last 30 years, but before that... > Panasonic, up the PC like Amstrad PCW line -- which were basically just > stripped down PCs. In what sense aee Amstrad PCWs 'stripped down' anything? From what I rememwebr they were capacble CP/M hacines (with up to 512K RAM, a bitmapped display, etc) that happeend to coem with word processing software. Incidnetlal,my although the DECmates were certainly marketed as word procesosrs, I consider them to be general-purpose comptuers, in fact desktop PDP8s... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 14 16:37:32 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 15:37:32 -0600 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> References: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <502AB05A.1030302 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > Since almost all emulators or simulators have as their primary focus > [...] the accurate execution of any given hardware instruction, With a few small excpetions, there are no emulators or simulators for most of the hardware that I have. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 14 16:52:04 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 14, 12 04:30:45 pm" Message-ID: <201208142152.q7ELq4R712910816@floodgap.com> > Probably not, but I also don't know anyone who works in the machine > room *all day* unless something really BIG has gone wrong. :) Back in the day when I was consulting I would be stuck in the machine room most of the time if there was no room for me to work other places. Fortunately most of the noisy stuff was out of there by then and I just had to complete with the water chiller and the HP boxes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I think, therefore I'm dangerous. ------------------------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 16:53:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:53:42 -0700 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> References: , <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com>, <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2012 at 16:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > Probably not, but I also don't know anyone who works in the machine > room *all day* unless something really BIG has gone wrong. :) How many retired high-school band directors can you name with perfect hearing? They're also exposed intermittently, yet every one that I know is somewhere between somewhat hearing-impaired to almost deaf as a tree. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 17:07:39 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:07:39 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> References: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: (much snippage...) > To make the point in a different manner, a software addict is interested in > the manner in which the combined software of the operating system, device > drives, utility and application programs interact to produce a useful result. . . . > So while I wish the hardware addicts well, viva the software addicts!!!! Personally, I like the real hardware and enjoy constructing new hacks and keeping the original gear working both. I also write code, but far more system-level code than application code. To me, at the level I write at, I need a 100% faithful hardware emulation from my simulators. It's not good enough that a FORTRAN or BASIC program will run, pull in text from a disk or tape file and smash together the data and spit out the right characters for output. I care if bits in I/O registers flip and clear in the right combination (though I care less if it takes 1us or 0.001us as long as it's perceived by my code to be in the right sequence with no atomic operations broken). In general, most emulators do a fine job of this or the OS would never load in the first place, but there are edge cases, which is why, for example, in VICE, you can select logical emulation of the model 1541 floppy drive or exact emulation. Logical emulation presents far less load on the host and if all you do is load and save files and send non-exotic commands to read and write data, it all works fine. If your program needs to manipulate data structures and buffers behind the scenes (CBM DOS allows the main CPU to read and write arbitrary bytes in the disk drive CPU's memory space using simple textual commands that are syntactically the same as the commands to load and save and review the directory, so it's not out of the question to emulate it all). I had one experience where I found what I thought was an obvious case of "this should work" that turned out to be a bug in the emulation of the hardware... On an early version of the SimH PDP-11 emulator (c. 1998), there were no known obvious problems under RT-11 or RSX-11 or even 2BSD with various types of DEC disk _except_ when I tried to create an environment with an RP03 and load 2.9BSD on it (since I already had real 2.9BSD tapes that I'd previously used to install the OS on real hardware - an 11/24 with RL02 and RK07), the install worked perfectly, but the OS hung on startup when it came time to probe the bus for what controllers were installed. It took three of us, Bob Supnik included, to figure out the issue was that when probe code writes to a read-only register on the RP-11 controller, the controller should generate an interrupt. That behavior is documented, but even in hindsight, it's not documented in such an obvious place that someone attempting to build an RP-11 work-alike would know or expect that something important should happen when you write to a read-only register. The code fix was trivial and after that, 2.9BSD came up and ran perfectly well. If I hadn't decided that I wanted about 60MB of space (vs 10MB per "disk" w/RL02 or 28MB per disk with RK07), I never would have known that there was an implementation bug with the RP11 code. Also, if I'd only ever stuck to DEC operating systems, I'd probably never have known then either. It's an edge case, since I doubt there were ever very many real PDP-11s with real RP-11s running 2.9BSD (for larger disk, an Emulex controller using the xp driver would have been far cheaper and far more common), but since with an emulator, I'm freer to configure a virtual machine in somewhat more interesting (but supposedly legal) combinations. So this is not a condemnation of emulation, but it is a cautionary tale that sometimes, it's not as easy as it appears to "get it right", and that's where having real working hardware can help. You say, "almost all emulators or simulators have as their primary focus... the accurate execution of any given hardware instruction", but do keep in mind that it goes beyond the instruction set when you start fiddling with emulated hardware. MOV might move a byte just fine as far as the ALU is concerned, but when it's not merely storing a byte in an array to be fetched later, when it needs to *do* something behind the scenes because in the real box, you've just triggered a cascade of flip-flops and gates, there's a whole lot of emulator code that has to work that might or might not have been sufficiently tested for "accurate execution". -ethan P.S. - yes, I've written plenty of MACRO-11 code under RT-11 that directly fiddles registers - I worked on this one project that had a hardware DMA engine and a framebuffer, so my application code did lots of writes to the I/O page, not just make I/O requests via the usual RT-11 mechanisms. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue Aug 14 17:16:41 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 15:16:41 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502ACE49.6090106@gorge.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> I've always thought of MS Word as a word-processing simulator. > No it's not. Simulators at least try to do what the thing they simulator > does. > > M$ Word is more like a food processor. It turns whatever you give it into > a dog's dinner. > > -tony > Another well known feature. It boosted sales of analgesics. -jim From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 14 17:54:20 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 15:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Aug 14, 12 06:07:39 pm" Message-ID: <201208142254.q7EMsKlp10158220@floodgap.com> > So this is not a condemnation of emulation, but it is a > cautionary tale that sometimes, it's not as easy as it > appears to "get it right", and that's where having real > working hardware can help. Real world example: I was looking at the PCRE library, which now uses a JIT for compilation of regular expressions (much like YARR for those who are familiar with JavaScriptCore), since it advertised PowerPC compatibility. It had been tested extensively in QEMU, but on real Power Macs it crashed because the cache didn't behave the way it did in QEMU. Fortunately it was easy to fix. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Homestar has a web site? -- Strong Bad ------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 14 18:03:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com>, <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120814155607.S80619@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How many retired high-school band directors can you name with perfect > hearing? They're also exposed intermittently, yet every one that I > know is somewhere between somewhat hearing-impaired to almost deaf as > a tree. Although there is certainly a correlation between hearing impairment and certain musically related occupations, we must be careful to avoid assuming causation! Perhaps hearing impairment causes certain people to go into those jobs! (or play certain kinds of music) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com (hearing such that singing would be a crime) From wulfcub at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 18:22:33 2012 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Copper Mistral) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:22:33 -0500 Subject: Slight-OT: DynaText readers? Message-ID: I'm trying to retrieve some old printer manuals from a 1999 CD-ROM, and they are supposedly DynaText. The problem I'm running into is that DynaText 4.1 doesn't recognize a valid collection. The installer on the CD looks for dynatext.ini and books.ini (which doesn't seem to exist anywhere, including on the CD). It wants these files to come from Xerox\ODOC\ .The installer fails without both of those files present. If I point it to a valid dynatext.ini, and fake a books.ini or give it an empty file, the installer completes "successfully" having done nothing. The 'books' directory contains a subdirectory with the book name (41354635 in this case). This directory then contains four more directories, EBT, INDEX, STYLES, and FIGURES, as well as a Setup.ini file with a few lines of information on the collection. 'Figures' is a collection of TIFF's. 'Index' contains index.dat and vocab.dat. The EBT directory contains 5 files: 41354635, 41354635.edr, 41354635.tag, search.tdr, toc.tdr. Google turns up almost nothing on these file extensions. The 'Styles' directory has several .v and .rev files, carrying copyright information bearing the name Electronic Book Technologies (thus EBT). EBT as a company is long gone. Most of the various book files are encoded (that is, not plain text), though each has an ASCII header. 'EDIR DATA' 'EDIR EDIR' 'EDIR TDIR' and 'EDIR TAGS' (this file is plain text). Anyone have any clues on how to read these files? So far, I've tried so far: Adobe FrameMaker (trial), Adobe Acrobat Pro 9, Altova StyleVision (trial), DynaText 4.1. Thanks! --Shaun From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 18:59:54 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: <5029735B.5050509@verizon.net> from "allison" at Aug 13, 12 05:36:27 pm Message-ID: <1344988794.3925.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Tony Duell > Yes it was though I think the Rainbow used the Z80 as an IOT processor.? > The video was CGA level No it was not!. It was CGA (US TV, RS170) scan rates, but it was _analogue_ RGB, with sung-on-green. It was not TTL levels like CGA. C: Also not a huge big deal to convert rgb + v + h into composite/rs-170. There used to be chips that did just that, but I'm not sure if they're still being manufactured. The problem with the Rainbow might be the relatively high dot clock (800 pixels horizontal). I'm thinking you'd lose a lot of detail converting to rs-170. ?Anyone know of a chip/circuit that'll separate composite into r, g, b, combined sync? > not VGA.? Doing VGA video makes finding compatible monitors easier (CGA > (9pin)went the way of > the dodo).? That does not require you to do VGA level video. Actually, they are not hard to get in the UK, provided you don't mind having to spearate the sunc from the green signal. Most TVs -- even modern ones -- have at least one SCART socket with analogue RGB inpots, and most TVs over here can hadnle US scan rates. -tony C: A scan doubler would be the best thing for a bow w/o a color monitor. Double the vertical sync. I mean to start working on something like that. It turns out that you would need to store the signal before spitting it back out in half the time. When this stuff started to take shape in my head, Tony came along and reinforced that. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 19:00:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:00:47 -0400 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com>, <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <502AE6AF.5070804@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 05:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Probably not, but I also don't know anyone who works in the machine >> room *all day* unless something really BIG has gone wrong. :) > > How many retired high-school band directors can you name with perfect > hearing? They're also exposed intermittently, yet every one that I > know is somewhere between somewhat hearing-impaired to almost deaf as > a tree. That sounded like pretty damning evidence, until it occurred to me that I know several retired people, from man professions, and they're ALL deaf as trees. ;) Either way, though, this doesn't change the fact that I've worked in datacenter environments off-and-on all my life and have NEVER seen people using any sort of hearing protection. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 19:01:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:01:21 -0400 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <20120814155607.S80619@shell.lmi.net> References: , <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com>, <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com> <20120814155607.S80619@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <502AE6D1.1010102@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 07:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> How many retired high-school band directors can you name with perfect >> hearing? They're also exposed intermittently, yet every one that I >> know is somewhere between somewhat hearing-impaired to almost deaf as >> a tree. > > Although there is certainly a correlation between hearing > impairment and certain musically related occupations, we > must be careful to avoid assuming causation! > Perhaps hearing impairment causes certain people to go into those jobs! > (or play certain kinds of music) Thinking back to my own high-school band days, I'd think that being hard of hearing was almost a prerequisite for the job! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 14 19:03:29 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:03:29 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> Message-ID: <502AE751.7040507@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >Jerome H. Fine writes: > >>Since almost all emulators or simulators have as their primary focus >>[...] the accurate execution of any given hardware instruction, >> >With a few small excpetions, there are no emulators or simulators for >most of the hardware that I have. > I agree that only the hardware systems that are used most frequently have emulators or simulators. Which translates to the fact that the hardware systems which are used by just a small percentage of the community will not have an emulator written. Since there are so many of these hardware systems, only a small percentage of all of the hardware systems, specifically the hardware that is used by most users will ever be emulated. Rarely, projects like SIMH appear which attempt to handle a large number of different hardware systems. But even SIMH looks at only a very small percentage of all the different hardware possibilities. In that case, how do you manage to retain the hardware which you use in a running state? For many years, I collected PDP-11 hardware until about 2002 in order to have sufficient spares. After Ersatz-11 became so enhanced, that was not longer necessary. What do you do for your hardware? Jerome Fine From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 14 19:13:13 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:13:13 -0400 Subject: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: What kind of internal termination do you need for HVD drives anyway? I have 4 HVD drives but no idea how to terminate them (I assume normal 68 pin LVD cables with terms are a no go). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Alderson" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:58 PM Subject: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] > From: Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:33 AM > > On 08/14/2012 04:06 AM, TeoZ wrote: > >>> There was a brief hop to just differential SCSI (higher voltage then >>> LVD which is how LVD got its name). HVD and SE/LVD don't like each >>> other while the other SCSI standards did with some tweeking. > >> This overlapped entirely with SE SCSI to the end, though. HVD was >> used in very high-end machines (Tandem and Cray come to mind) for the >> better noise immunity for longer cable runs. It really wasn't a hop >> from SE to HVD then to LVD. > > Also the XKL Toad-1 System (4 x differential FASTWIDE SCSI-2 ports). > An absolute bear to find drives for. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 19:20:37 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: different types of monitor strain Message-ID: <1344990037.83520.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I got a call from a man who has been in the development business since the 70s. We got to talking about a whole lot of stuff (actually it was more listening on my part then anything else). On the topic of eyestrain (?) he said that different colors (primary?) have different focal depths, so at least for some people strain is caused when looking at a color monitor w/fine dot pitch. I have to at least take him at his word on that, but when I mentioned that staring at green phosphors for an extended length of time (>30 minutes say) caused white to appear pink. For instance the numbers on a cars speedometer. He said he never experienced that. Can anyone explain the reasons for that? It stands to reason that causing your eyes to focus on something small? and multichromatic would cause strain (you're forcing your eyes to focus on a single point that in essence appears to be at varying distances. I don't understand the pink eye effect though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 19:45:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:45:17 -0400 Subject: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <502AF11D.6010502@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 08:13 PM, TeoZ wrote: > What kind of internal termination do you need for HVD drives anyway? I > have 4 HVD drives but no idea how to terminate them (I assume normal 68 > pin LVD cables with terms are a no go). There are special HVD terminators. I don't know if LVD terminators will work, but I doubt it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 14 19:47:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:47:43 -0700 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502AE6AF.5070804@neurotica.com> References: , <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com>, <502AE6AF.5070804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <502A8F3F.27986.ACA25@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2012 at 20:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > Either way, though, this doesn't change the fact that I've worked in > datacenter environments off-and-on all my life and have NEVER seen > people using any sort of hearing protection. I've never seen people wearing hearing protection at rock concerts either. The problem is that people tend to ignore insults to their hearing until it's too late. So, does anyone know of any publicly-owned hearing aid manufacturers? Looks like a growth industry... --Chuck (with some ringing in his ears) From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 14 19:57:51 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:57:51 -0400 Subject: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <502AF11D.6010502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 8:45 PM Subject: Re: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] > On 08/14/2012 08:13 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> What kind of internal termination do you need for HVD drives anyway? I >> have 4 HVD drives but no idea how to terminate them (I assume normal 68 >> pin LVD cables with terms are a no go). > > There are special HVD terminators. I don't know if LVD terminators > will work, but I doubt it. > > -Dave > I have external HVD terminators (for an IBM mammoth tape drive), just never seen an internal cable with one on it or I just never noticed it. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 14 20:05:35 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:05:35 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> Message-ID: <502AF5DF.30404@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >(much snippage...) > > >>To make the point in a different manner, a software addict is interested in >>the manner in which the combined software of the operating system, device >>drives, utility and application programs interact to produce a useful result. >> >> >. >. >. > > >>So while I wish the hardware addicts well, viva the software addicts!!!! >> >> > >Personally, I like the real hardware and enjoy constructing new hacks and >keeping the original gear working both. I also write code, but far more >system-level code than application code. To me, at the level I write at, >I need a 100% faithful hardware emulation from my simulators. It's not >good enough that a FORTRAN or BASIC program will run, pull in text >from a disk or tape file and smash together the data and spit out the >right characters for output. I care if bits in I/O registers flip and clear >in the right combination (though I care less if it takes 1us or 0.001us >as long as it's perceived by my code to be in the right sequence with >no atomic operations broken). > About half of the code I write is for either an RT-11 Monitor or an RT-11 device driver. Even when I write code for or enhance an existing application, the code often looks at the hardware registers. For example, RESORC.SAV needs to look directly at the hardware to provide the user with information about the hardware that is being used. The DEC development team did not have the authority to spend the time to figure out how to run RESORC.SAV as a virtual job under VBGEXE (or were unable to figure out - unlikely - how to compensate for the lack of direct access to the RT-11 data tables, etc. let alone the IOPAGE registers). While it did take a bit of experimenting, eventually the solution became obvious and now RESORC.SAV can run as a virtual job - which means that it can run under VBGEXE as a system job. More recently, the same sort of situation occurred for KED when I run under Ersatz-11 and use more than 24 lines and columns different from 80 columns / 132 columns. >In general, most emulators do a fine job of this or the OS would never >load in the first place, but there are edge cases, which is why, for >example, in VICE, you can select logical emulation of the model >1541 floppy drive or exact emulation. Logical emulation presents >far less load on the host and if all you do is load and save files >and send non-exotic commands to read and write data, it all works >fine. If your program needs to manipulate data structures and buffers >behind the scenes (CBM DOS allows the main CPU to read and write >arbitrary bytes in the disk drive CPU's memory space using simple >textual commands that are syntactically the same as the commands >to load and save and review the directory, so it's not out of the question >to emulate it all). > Under Ersatz-11 and SIMH, it is possible to write code which determines which emulator is running - or if a real DEC CPU is being used. I plan to revisit RESORC.SAV to add that code to the description of the hardware that is being used. YES!! I agree that even emulators can be a bit different from the real hardware in situations when the results don't cause a problem with what the operating system will normally do when a specific answer to a specific requirement is needed which determines certain error handling code as just one example. Somehow, it was found that SIMH, Ersatz-11 and real DEC CPUs behave slightly differently and that allows the code to know which actual hardware or emulator is being used. I can't be more specific at the moment since I can't quite remember the details. But in a few months after I complete some changes with KED to add a few enhancements, I plan on going back to RESORC.SAV and adding the code to: (a) Determine if SIMH or Ersatz-11 is being used (b) The approximate relative speed of the emulator vs a PDP-11/93 (c) For a Mapped Monitor the method used by the XALLOC subroutine in selecting extended memory - LOW or HIGH first. Does anyone have any suggestions for RESORC or KED enhancements while I am adding some of my own enhancements? >I had one experience where I found what I thought was >an obvious case of "this should work" that turned out to >be a bug in the emulation of the hardware... On an early >version of the SimH PDP-11 emulator (c. 1998), there >were no known obvious problems under RT-11 or RSX-11 >or even 2BSD with various types of DEC disk _except_ >when I tried to create an environment with an RP03 and >load 2.9BSD on it (since I already had real 2.9BSD tapes >that I'd previously used to install the OS on real >hardware - an 11/24 with RL02 and RK07), the install >worked perfectly, but the OS hung on startup when it >came time to probe the bus for what controllers were >installed. > >It took three of us, Bob Supnik included, to figure out >the issue was that when probe code writes to a read-only >register on the RP-11 controller, the controller should >generate an interrupt. That behavior is documented, >but even in hindsight, it's not documented in such an >obvious place that someone attempting to build an >RP-11 work-alike would know or expect that something >important should happen when you write to a read-only >register. The code fix was trivial and after that, 2.9BSD >came up and ran perfectly well. > >If I hadn't decided that I wanted about 60MB of space (vs >10MB per "disk" w/RL02 or 28MB per disk with RK07), I >never would have known that there was an implementation >bug with the RP11 code. Also, if I'd only ever stuck to >DEC operating systems, I'd probably never have known >then either. It's an edge case, since I doubt there were >ever very many real PDP-11s with real RP-11s running >2.9BSD (for larger disk, an Emulex controller using the >xp driver would have been far cheaper and far more >common), but since with an emulator, I'm freer to configure >a virtual machine in somewhat more interesting (but >supposedly legal) combinations. > Ersatz-11 also has the same sort of opportunities. There is even a Hypothetical Disk device driver, HD(X).SYS which supports variable size drives. It is possible to mix and match hardware in a manner not available on a real DEC system. One very interesting possibility is the ability to LOAD a DLL which supports direct access to the PC memory - I have manages to access 1.2 GB of memory on a system running Windows XP which has 3 GB of physical memory. The instructions to access the memory of the PC uses 4 IOPAGE registers (for the original simple version) so that the user can directly read or write up to 4 GB of PC memory. This is not very useful for RSX-11 or RSTS/E when direct access to IOPAGE registers is not possible (or at least is totally unreasonable). But for RT-11, even with a virtual job, it is at least possible to access the IOPAGE registers from PREVIOUS KERNEL SPACE via the MFPS and MTPS instructions. Obviously a real DEC PDP-11 can also have such a hardware device and with PC memory being so inexpensive, a 4 GB stick could fit right on a Qbus controller board. >So this is not a condemnation of emulation, but it is a >cautionary tale that sometimes, it's not as easy as it >appears to "get it right", and that's where having real >working hardware can help. You say, "almost all >emulators or simulators have as their primary focus... >the accurate execution of any given hardware >instruction", but do keep in mind that it goes beyond >the instruction set when you start fiddling with >emulated hardware. MOV might move a byte >just fine as far as the ALU is concerned, but when >it's not merely storing a byte in an array to be fetched >later, when it needs to *do* something behind the >scenes because in the real box, you've just triggered >a cascade of flip-flops and gates, there's a whole lot >of emulator code that has to work that might or >might not have been sufficiently tested for >"accurate execution". > I actually have the same problem at the moment with a DY(X).SYS device driver that works on a real DEC PDP-11/83 for the DEC RX02 floppy drive, but does not seem to work on Ersatz-11 at the moment. One of these years, I will attempt to figure out the problem. This DYX.SYS has a bounce buffer to support 22 bit backplanes while the RXV21 controller (M8029) only supports 18 bit memory addresses. So I agree that there are always going to be infrequent, but real edge cases. >-ethan > >P.S. - yes, I've written plenty of MACRO-11 code under >RT-11 that directly fiddles registers - I worked on this >one project that had a hardware DMA engine and a >framebuffer, so my application code did lots of writes >to the I/O page, not just make I/O requests via the >usual RT-11 mechanisms. > The HD(X).SYS device driver has been enhanced to support using both RAM: disks and disk files. When RAM: is used, the "disk I/O" is always immediately complete before the CPU is returned back to the device driver. With a disk file, some variants of Ersatz-11 support asynchronous disk I/O so that an interrupt should always be taken in that case to wait for the completion of the disk I/O. YES!! There are always examples of interactions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerome Fine From doc at vaxen.net Tue Aug 14 20:07:17 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:07:17 -0500 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <502A0DD1.60009@neurotica.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> <502A0DD1.60009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <502AF645.3010807@vaxen.net> On 8/14/12 3:35 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > The pitch plays a big part of it. I never got a headache in "big fan" > machine rooms, but I sometimes do in "hundreds of 1U machines" machine > rooms. It's not like it kills you...those are probably the same guys > who wear goggles to mow the lawn. (or their bosses are just that > paranoid) Having a headache is, for me at least, far preferable to > having sweaty hair and ears from wearing a headset. I always wear safety glasses mowing the lawn. It reduces the allergy agony like you wouldn't believe. Re the hundreds of 1U servers - I used to work on a drilling rig where the noise level was constantly very high - huge unbaffled diesels, air compressors, and chain-gear noise, and while it certainly damaged my hearing, it was never actively unpleasant. Working in a colo or datacenter where there are a lot of 1U and 2U boxes makes me want to scream in a matter of minutes. Doc From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 20:18:51 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:18:51 -0400 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <1344908820.65089.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <002101cd7719$9cac2eb0$d6048c10$@YAHOO.COM> <5029706C.8060904@verizon.net> <1344908820.65089.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301cd7a84$07e4cf80$17ae6e80$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:47 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > I have photos of the NEC APC video boards if anyone wanted to take a > gander. > > Hey Andy, why don't you consider creating an IBM PGC type graphics > controller for your rig. Sounds like a lot of fun to me. I have one, and a > Vermont Microsystems clone, 80188 based if you need any inspiration. Hi Can the PGC be built in a hobbyist friendly manner? Does it use custom chips or proprietary programmable logic? Would it fit on an S-100 board? Honestly I don't know too much about it. I'd need to see a schematic and a PCB to determine if it is suitable. The S-100 VGA and S-100 80386 CPU board PCBs are really pushing the envelope of our current technology choices. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 14 20:21:14 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HtG differential SCSI [was RE: To all with interest in IBM 7090] In-Reply-To: <502AB469.4060904@neurotica.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9754E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <502AB469.4060904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208150121.VAA17796@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have a very large quantity of 68-pin HVD 4.3GB drives. I have a ridiculous number of HVD SCSI SBus cards; if anyone needs such a thing, just let me know. Now, all we need is someone with too many HVD terminators... :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 14 20:24:37 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201208150124.VAA17823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Personally, if I were in charge of keeping it running, I'd rather >> have the simulator. Not because it's easier to repair the hardware >> [...], but because the exact hardware is irrelevant: I'm reasonably >> confident I can, if necessary, build a new simulator on whatever the >> beagleboard/pi/etc du jour is. > Hmm... My issue would be wit hthe interface to the 'panel'. > If you were doign this 10 years ago, most likely the simulator would > run on a PC, and you'd interface the panel to the parallel port. That's what I'd do today. > Today, msot likely you'd interface that panel to USB. Maybe most people would. I wouldn't. > I suspect that the changes necessary (both hardware and software) to > move from 'bit banged on a parelel port; to 'USB' are considerable. If the simulator is properly designed, it's just a matter of ripping off one glue layer and dropping in another. If the simulator isn't properly designed in that respect, it soon would be after I got hold of it. :) > I suspect hat keeping the rela machine running is a lot easier. For you, it probably would be. Hence my "Personally". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 14 20:26:29 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:26:29 -0500 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <502AF645.3010807@vaxen.net> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> <502A0DD1.60009@neurotica.com> <502AF645.3010807@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <502AFAC5.2020704@charter.net> I have permanent tinnitus (ringing ears) from machine rooms in the 60's, 70's and 80's with some permanent hearing impairment. WEAR EAR PROTECTION. (And I do wear ear inserts for mowing the lawn, too, now -- but not eye goggles.) On 8/14/2012 8:07 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 8/14/12 3:35 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> The pitch plays a big part of it. I never got a headache in "big >> fan" >> machine rooms, but I sometimes do in "hundreds of 1U machines" machine >> rooms. It's not like it kills you...those are probably the same guys >> who wear goggles to mow the lawn. (or their bosses are just that >> paranoid) Having a headache is, for me at least, far preferable to >> having sweaty hair and ears from wearing a headset. > > I always wear safety glasses mowing the lawn. > > It reduces the allergy agony like you wouldn't believe. > > Re the hundreds of 1U servers - I used to work on a drilling rig > where the noise level was constantly very high - huge unbaffled > diesels, air compressors, and chain-gear noise, and while it certainly > damaged my hearing, it was never actively unpleasant. > > Working in a colo or datacenter where there are a lot of 1U and 2U > boxes makes me want to scream in a matter of minutes. > > > Doc > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 14 20:26:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:26:55 -0400 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502A8F3F.27986.ACA25@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com>, <502AE6AF.5070804@neurotica.com> <502A8F3F.27986.ACA25@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <502AFADF.1050300@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 08:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Either way, though, this doesn't change the fact that I've worked in >> datacenter environments off-and-on all my life and have NEVER seen >> people using any sort of hearing protection. > > I've never seen people wearing hearing protection at rock concerts > either. The problem is that people tend to ignore insults to their > hearing until it's too late. Good point. But then I don't wear hearing protection at concerts because I'm there to...you know, hear stuff. ;) The frequency response of most hearing protection mechanisms is nowhere near flat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 14 20:29:32 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:29:32 -0500 Subject: different types of monitor strain In-Reply-To: <1344990037.83520.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1344990037.83520.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502AFB7C.1050102@charter.net> Stare at any color picture with large areas of color for a while (a couple of minutes), and then stare at a white piece of paper. You will see the color complements. The cones get "tired". It has nothing to do with focus, but everything to do with the same image appearing on the same area of the retina for an extended time. On 8/14/2012 7:20 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I got a call from a man who has been in the development business since the 70s. We got to talking about a whole lot of stuff (actually it was more listening on my part then anything else). On the topic of eyestrain (?) he said that different colors (primary?) have different focal depths, so at least for some people strain is caused when looking at a color monitor w/fine dot pitch. I have to at least take him at his word on that, but when I mentioned that staring at green phosphors for an extended length of time (>30 minutes say) caused white to appear pink. For instance the numbers on a cars speedometer. He said he never experienced that. Can anyone explain the reasons for that? It stands to reason that causing your eyes to focus on something small and multichromatic would cause strain (you're forcing your eyes to focus on a single point that in essence appears to be at varying distances. I don't understand the pink eye effect though. > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 14 20:29:31 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502A8F3F.27986.ACA25@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com>, <502AE6AF.5070804@neurotica.com> <502A8F3F.27986.ACA25@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201208150129.VAA17847@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] I've worked in datacenter environments off-and-on all my life >> and have NEVER seen people using any sort of hearing protection. I've used hearing protection occasionally. You might not realize that's what it is, though, because it's just the my usual closed-ear headphones with the cord running into my pocket. What's not obvious is that the cord isn't plugged into anything in my pocket. They advertise over 30dB of isolation from external noise, and, while I haven't put decibel meters on them, it would not surprise me if they deliver. I once used them when the fire alarm went off in the building I was in and, in the hallway I had to use to leave, it was well above my threshold of pain. A pair of headphones and it was still loud, but nowhere near painfully loud. > I've never seen people wearing hearing protection at rock concerts > either. Well, I've been to concerts and worn hearing protection, but, unless you were within a couple of seats of me, you would not have been able to tell, because what I was using was the in-the-ear kind that's pretty much invisible unless you're up close. > The problem is that people tend to ignore insults to their hearing > until it's too late. _Some_ people. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 20:31:21 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd76f7$f59bf1d0$e0d3d570$@YAHOO.COM> <502613E0.7040900@e-bbes.com> <5029735B.5050509@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1344994281.85127.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Tothwolf On Mon, 13 Aug 2012, allison wrote: > Yes it was though I think the Rainbow used the Z80 as an IOT processor. The video was CGA level not VGA.? Doing VGA video makes finding compatible monitors easier (CGA (9pin)went the way of the dodo).? That does not require you to do VGA level video. You actually can get LCD displays that accept CGA (and MDA) signals but they cost more than a typical VGA display. C: Can you provide specifics? I know of some older units that'll take EGA digital video. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Aug 14 20:38:12 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:38:12 -0500 Subject: Graphics programming on DOMAIN/OS (was: NeWS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502AFD84.8090907@charter.net> I believe that I sent Al Kossow a copy of that manual at some point in the past, according to my records: *MANUALS* NUMBER MFG MACHINE TITLE YEAR LOC 005506-A00 Apollo DN Series apollo Programming with Domain/OS Calls 1989 AEK1 MANUALS On 8/9/2012 3:05 PM, Richard wrote: > On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:33:41 MDT, > Richard wrote: > >> In article <50240091.9060108 at bitsavers.org>, >> Al Kossow writes: >> >>> On 8/9/12 10:21 AM, Richard wrote: >>> >>>> I have been attempting to find details on the Apollo DOMAIN/OS >>>> windowing environment before they started running X11, but so far >>>> haven't been able to find much of anything. >>>> >>> There wasn't anything in the Apollo documents on bitsavers? >> Looks like it was pre-2009 that I last looked, when you added a bunch >> of stuff. I will have to dig into that pile! > "Programming with Domain Graphics Primitives" (005808-01)[1] makes > reference to "Programming with General System Calls" (005506) which > explains pad calls that allow you to create pads and frames. If this > manual could be made available, that would be a helpful addition. > > [1] From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 20:44:21 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:44:21 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <502AFAC5.2020704@charter.net> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> <5029D3F5.1000100@neurotica.com> <5029DED3.4000705@gmail.com> <5029F7DF.4060203@neurotica.com> <502A06F9.3050304@gmail.com> <502A0DD1.60009@neurotica.com> <502AF645.3010807@vaxen.net> <502AFAC5.2020704@charter.net> Message-ID: <502AFEF5.3050005@gmail.com> On 8/14/2012 6:26 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I have permanent tinnitus (ringing ears) from machine rooms in the > 60's, 70's and 80's with some permanent hearing impairment. > > WEAR EAR PROTECTION. > > (And I do wear ear inserts for mowing the lawn, too, now -- but not > eye goggles.) I wonder if the IT field doesn't need something like the pro hearing protection campaigns they did in the late 90's for musicians. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 20:59:17 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:59:17 -0700 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <502AFADF.1050300@neurotica.com> References: , <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com>, <502AE6AF.5070804@neurotica.com> <502A8F3F.27986.ACA25@cclist.sydex.com> <502AFADF.1050300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <502B0275.5040307@gmail.com> On 8/14/2012 6:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > The frequency response of most hearing protection mechanisms is > nowhere near flat. -Dave Pretty much the same reasoning we all used back in the day. It is your hearing. Do with it what you want. Just saying as someone that has been there and done that you may pay a price. Someday. How many concerts have you come back from with your ears ringing or it being a little harder to hear for a bit ? I've come out of server rooms the same way as I did concerts. Not ringing but, yelling at people. I am glad I see people using hearing protection now. I am pretty sure if I took a SPL reading in most data centers it would be well over OSHA limits for not wearing hearing protection . From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Aug 14 22:54:38 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:54:38 -0700 Subject: To all with interest in preservation (more) In-Reply-To: <502A1032.31343.127C7B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5027B2EF.21064.E3AE9F@cclist.sydex.com>, , <02D967A6E2BD40CBA0E5DD464D42F473@MailBox> <502A1032.31343.127C7B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2012, at 8:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Aug 2012 at 7:13, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Word processors - I have three Decmate, DecmateII and DecmateIII plus >> the DEC Daisy wheel printer (Awaiting restoration) to go with them. > > That's probably because you collect anything DEC. But how about, > CPT, Artec, Lanier, Exxon (yes, the oil company), Harris...? > > (I don't count the Xerox Star, because it was something very > different) > > --Chuck > > wang m ade a series of dedicated word processors. From jonas at otter.se Tue Aug 14 01:25:39 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 08:25:39 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5029EF63.8000803@otter.se> On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:01:41 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I am going to define 'London' as the area I can get to with a London bus > Pas (I do not mean the 'City of London', I mean an area about 30 miles by > 30 miles. In 'London' I know of preceisely_one_ shop tht sells a > reasoanble range of electronic components [1]. I know of no shops that > will sell me small-ish qunatiites of common engineering metals (say 1m of > 1/2" diamaeter CZ121 bras rodd, or similar free-machining mild steel). I > know of no shop that sells 'engineering' tools (lathe and mil lcutting > tools, individual sockets, spanenrs, etc). That sucks. I can get all of that in a town less than 1/10 the size of London (admittedly it is the second largest town in this country). The largest distributor in Sweden has a shop where you can get the most frequently ordered items from their catalogue over the counter, and the rest of what they have in stock next day. Not far from there, there is a shop that sells any machine tool or part you may want. None of them are cheap, but you can get what you need. Jonas From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Tue Aug 14 06:29:59 2012 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 13:29:59 +0200 Subject: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <50299BAD.1090109@gmail.com> <5029FFE1.4090309@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9E0C1EECF2764FC5B8899518572D756D@nierveze131f01> hello,this item is blocked in france,the pdp11 must have some stategic value ...also often radio sets like my old BC342 are blocked...some times some things are excessive... best regards to all Alain Nierveze www.radio-astronomie.com nierveze at radio-astronomie.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim s" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:36 AM Subject: Re: Kinda nice 11/34 on ebay > > On 8/13/2012 5:28 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-34-RACK-W-RX02-FLOPPY-DRIVE-RL02-TAPE-DRIVE-RL02K-DC-CARTRIDGE-/200806420175 > I didn't have any problem with picture load speed. > > The same vendor has a Gerber printer for sale as well for $499 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/200806422757 > > There is interesting analog gear at the top of the system. From that I'm > not sure if it would be part of a system which needed the Gerber, given > its use as a circuit board process tool, though. > > Jim > From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 09:55:23 2012 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1344956123.23912.YahooMailNeo@web140601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> All the pictures labeled "Data Center x", except for number 5, were taken in live data centers. We had enough on the Cupertino site that we could just roll a new system in and do the shoot. Several of the pictures were actually not staged except for the models.? Re. noise in the data center - yes they could be loud. When I was in college in the mid-1970s I worked as the weekend operator for an IBM 370/155 and DEC-2050. There was a lot of fan noise. Not so much you couldn't hold a conversation, but you did have to yell to be around across the machine room. The only piece of equipment we had that had significant noise reduction was the IBM printer (1403?). The interesting thing about noise in the machine room is how quiet it is when everything is turned off.? ? Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: mc68010 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:08 PM Subject: Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral On 8/13/2012 8:33 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Lee Courtney > wrote: >> I posted some 1980's vintage HP3000 marketing shots at Flicker: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBmrAyC >> >> Enjoy! > Lee - thanks for posting these.? Especially love the datacenter scenes > with the gobs of 9-track and pack drives.? And there are some bizarro > terminals (the little ones with the shrouds) that I've never seen > before. > Being a little young to have actually in data centers like these but, having worked with some of the gear later and worked in more modern data centers, how are they working in all that noise ? I realize these are ad shots but, all the the normal operation shots make it look like that is how it was done. Well, minus any women of course. How loud was it really ? Say in something like this http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/IBM7094.jpg I've never seen much soundproofing on mainframe gear so, I assume it must have been really loud in there. From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Tue Aug 14 09:55:23 2012 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1344956123.23912.YahooMailNeo@web140601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> All the pictures labeled "Data Center x", except for number 5, were taken in live data centers. We had enough on the Cupertino site that we could just roll a new system in and do the shoot. Several of the pictures were actually not staged except for the models.? Re. noise in the data center - yes they could be loud. When I was in college in the mid-1970s I worked as the weekend operator for an IBM 370/155 and DEC-2050. There was a lot of fan noise. Not so much you couldn't hold a conversation, but you did have to yell to be around across the machine room. The only piece of equipment we had that had significant noise reduction was the IBM printer (1403?). The interesting thing about noise in the machine room is how quiet it is when everything is turned off.? ? Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: mc68010 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:08 PM Subject: Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral On 8/13/2012 8:33 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Lee Courtney > wrote: >> I posted some 1980's vintage HP3000 marketing shots at Flicker: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBmrAyC >> >> Enjoy! > Lee - thanks for posting these.? Especially love the datacenter scenes > with the gobs of 9-track and pack drives.? And there are some bizarro > terminals (the little ones with the shrouds) that I've never seen > before. > Being a little young to have actually in data centers like these but, having worked with some of the gear later and worked in more modern data centers, how are they working in all that noise ? I realize these are ad shots but, all the the normal operation shots make it look like that is how it was done. Well, minus any women of course. How loud was it really ? Say in something like this http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/IBM7094.jpg I've never seen much soundproofing on mainframe gear so, I assume it must have been really loud in there. From earl at retrobits.com Tue Aug 14 13:20:58 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 11:20:58 -0700 Subject: PDPs in the garage Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack mount, dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. Also, I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was considering moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as outside temps, but it can get up there. I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take well to temperature shifts. Thoughts? - Earl From axelsson at acc.umu.se Tue Aug 14 17:03:51 2012 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 00:03:51 +0200 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <1344821473.77632.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> <001201cd7895$092eba90$1b8c2fb0$@YAHOO.COM> <1344821473.77632.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502ACB47.1060906@acc.umu.se> Chris Tofu skrev 2012-08-13 03:31: > ________________________________ > From: Andrew Lynch > > PS, BTW there are still plenty of the ECB uPD7220 GDC board PCBs left. They > are readily adapted to almost any microcomputer/embedded/vintage type > system. They work well and interface to standard VGA monitors. > > C: How much? And where are you getting all these 7220 chips from Andy? I think I have a total of 3 in my possession, and all are likely soldered to something. > I have a lot of 7220 chips, pulled from Nokia VT220 compatible terminals (Norsk Data ND-NOTIS terminals). The terminal was based on a 80186 CPU with a NEC D7220 AD chip and eight 4464 dram (256 kbyte). I haven't found any way to enable graphics mode on the terminals but I haven't made a decent trial yet. The screen seems to be monochrome only, no grey scale, so there seems to be plenty of memory for the graphics. I can sell tested NEC chips, terminal boards (digital part) or complete terminals to anyone interested. I always test the terminals before I scrap them to see that the chips are good. ... I got 60 terminals left and it is still too much, I will save the 20 best of the lot, the rest is going to be scrapped unless I can find someone who wants them. /G?ran From axelsson at acc.umu.se Tue Aug 14 19:14:33 2012 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 02:14:33 +0200 Subject: Fwd: [DatapointComputers] Datapoint 1560 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502AE9E9.6020400@acc.umu.se> I thought this could be interesting for members on the list. Too bad it's too far away for me. /G?ran -------- Ursprungligt meddelande -------- ?mne: [DatapointComputers] Datapoint 1560 Datum: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:21:24 -0000 Fr?n: techiegabe Svar till: DatapointComputers at yahoogroups.com Till: DatapointComputers at yahoogroups.com I finally got around to unpacking a Datapoint 1560 system that has been lying around in my basement crawl space since the late 80's gathering dust. After a good cleaning and resetting of boards and connectors it looks in great shape, BUT the Monitor "Sparked and Smoked" when I turned it on. I haven't turned on the disk subsubsystem yet. Anyways, I am able to take it with me when we head down to Wickenburg AZ, for the winter, and wondering if that Computer Museum (or anyone else) may want to give it a new home? I'm still looking for the Diskettes and Manuals. I also have a MINX Monitor. Gabe x-Datapoint Canada Inc. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 20:08:56 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:08:56 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:33:52 -0500 > Subject: Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Lee Courtney > wrote: >> I posted some 1980's vintage HP3000 marketing shots at Flicker: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBmrAyC >> >> Enjoy! The Rhode Island Computer Museum has an HP3000 Series 70, just like in one of your pictures. Too bad we don't have that many disk drives to go with it. https://sites.google.com/a/ricomputermuseum.org/home/Home/equipment/hp3000-series-70 -- Michael Thompson From george at rachors.com Wed Aug 15 00:45:49 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 22:45:49 -0700 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings Earl! In a former house I seriously considered taking the heat generated in a computer rack and directing it into the overhead ductwork in the daylight basement. I would think that if you can keep the room humanly comfortable your halfway there. George Rachor Sent from my iPhone george at rachors.com On Aug 14, 2012, at 11:20 AM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack mount, > dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. Also, > I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was considering > moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. > > If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do > you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you > simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think > it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? > > My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the > winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But > summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had > 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as outside > temps, but it can get up there. > > I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since > the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take > well to temperature shifts. > > Thoughts? > > - Earl > From george at rachors.com Wed Aug 15 00:45:49 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 22:45:49 -0700 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings Earl! In a former house I seriously considered taking the heat generated in a computer rack and directing it into the overhead ductwork in the daylight basement. I would think that if you can keep the room humanly comfortable your halfway there. George Rachor Sent from my iPhone george at rachors.com On Aug 14, 2012, at 11:20 AM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack mount, > dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. Also, > I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was considering > moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. > > If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do > you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you > simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think > it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? > > My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the > winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But > summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had > 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as outside > temps, but it can get up there. > > I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since > the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take > well to temperature shifts. > > Thoughts? > > - Earl > From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 00:47:21 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 05:47:21 +0000 Subject: different types of monitor strain In-Reply-To: <502AFB7C.1050102@charter.net> References: <1344990037.83520.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502AFB7C.1050102@charter.net> Message-ID: <508296684-1345009639-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-339546453-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> One of my favorite vga crts had a very thoughtful feature in this regard. A button you could push would modify the color output from regular vga, ibm white on blue (ick), I think green, and all amber. The amber was for night time so the user isn't burning their retinas in. Sorta the same symptom of not seeing an led or star when you look right at it but you can see it if you look next to it. -----Original Message----- From: Jay Jaeger Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:29:32 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: different types of monitor strain Stare at any color picture with large areas of color for a while (a couple of minutes), and then stare at a white piece of paper. You will see the color complements. The cones get "tired". It has nothing to do with focus, but everything to do with the same image appearing on the same area of the retina for an extended time. On 8/14/2012 7:20 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I got a call from a man who has been in the development business since the 70s. We got to talking about a whole lot of stuff (actually it was more listening on my part then anything else). On the topic of eyestrain (?) he said that different colors (primary?) have different focal depths, so at least for some people strain is caused when looking at a color monitor w/fine dot pitch. I have to at least take him at his word on that, but when I mentioned that staring at green phosphors for an extended length of time (>30 minutes say) caused white to appear pink. For instance the numbers on a cars speedometer. He said he never experienced that. Can anyone explain the reasons for that? It stands to reason that causing your eyes to focus on something small and multichromatic would cause strain (you're forcing your eyes to focus on a single point that in essence appears to be at varying distances. I don't understand the pink eye effect though. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 15 00:56:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 01:56:55 -0400 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502B3A27.709@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2012 02:20 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack mount, > dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. Also, > I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was considering > moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. > > If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do > you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you > simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think > it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? > > My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the > winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But > summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had > 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as outside > temps, but it can get up there. > > I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since > the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take > well to temperature shifts. > > Thoughts? I would definitely *not* do it. Many people here have restored garage-kept PDP-11s...point being that, after a few years of that, they require restoration. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Aug 15 01:10:51 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:10:51 +0200 Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <502ACB47.1060906@acc.umu.se> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> <001201cd7895$092eba90$1b8c2fb0$@YAHOO.COM> <1344821473.77632.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502ACB47.1060906@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <20120815081051.wj58cigncwwks0k8@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting G?ran Axelsson : > I haven't found any way to enable graphics mode on the terminals but I > haven't made a decent trial yet. The screen seems to be monochrome > only, no grey scale, so there seems to be plenty of memory for the > graphics. Did you try sending them some binary files? or just something from /dev/rand ? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 01:15:10 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 23:15:10 -0700 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <1344956123.23912.YahooMailNeo@web140601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: , <5029CF41.2090507@gmail.com>, <1344956123.23912.YahooMailNeo@web140601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502ADBFE.13668.E7E8F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2012 at 7:55, Lee Courtney wrote: > Re. noise in the data center - yes they could be loud. When I was in > college in the mid-1970s I worked as the weekend operator for an IBM > 370/155 and DEC-2050. There was a lot of fan noise. Not so much you > couldn't hold a conversation, but you did have to yell to be around > across the machine room. The only piece of equipment we had that had > significant noise reduction was the IBM printer (1403?). The > interesting thing about noise in the machine room is how quiet it is > when everything is turned off.? In Sunnyvale, when all the construction outfits were tearing up orchards and fields and pouring concrete tilt-ups, power failures were frequent. SVLOPS didn't have a backup generator, so when the power went out, it was just the emergency lighting and the groaning of both the people trying to get work done and the CEs (for the work they'd have to do when power came back up). Otherwise, yes, deathly, eerily silent. It generally took the better part of several hours to get the systems back up. They were not tolerant of power outages. I was reminded of this today, when a tree fell across a line coming out of the substation up the road. When the power was restored, everything came back up with scarcely a hiccup. Times have certainly changed... --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 15 01:45:03 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 23:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits Message-ID: Is there anyone here who understands 16-bit DOS coding well enough to help me make some 32-bit code work in 16-bit DOS? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 15 02:52:35 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 00:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > Is there anyone here who understands 16-bit DOS coding well enough to help me > make some 32-bit code work in 16-bit DOS? Some background stuff: the problems seem to hinge on the fact that unsigned longs are used all over the place. I'm thinking that if somehow I can come up with a crutch for processing these variables, I could make it work. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Aug 15 03:08:13 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 01:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1345018093.28998.YahooMailClassic@web181603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Are you running on a 16-bit machine (8086) or are you simply running in DOS in real-mode on a 32-bit capable processor (80386+)? If the latter, just get a DOS extender, like the one that comes with DJGPP. Code written for 32-bit machines frequently makes assumptions such as that sizeof(int) == sizeof(char*). With an extender, you get a 32-bit address flat address space and it will just work. --Bill --- On Wed, 8/15/12, David Griffith wrote: > From: David Griffith > Subject: Re: 32-bit code in 16 bits > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2012, 12:52 AM > On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, David Griffith > wrote: > > > Is there anyone here who understands 16-bit DOS coding > well enough to help me make some 32-bit code work in 16-bit > DOS? > > Some background stuff: the problems seem to hinge on the > fact that unsigned longs are used all over the place.? > I'm thinking that if somehow I can come up with a crutch for > processing these variables, I could make it work. > > -- David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read > text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From abs at absd.org Wed Aug 15 03:16:01 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:16:01 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <201208142254.q7EMsKlp10158220@floodgap.com> References: <201208142254.q7EMsKlp10158220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 15 August 2012 00:54, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> So this is not a condemnation of emulation, but it is a >> cautionary tale that sometimes, it's not as easy as it >> appears to "get it right", and that's where having real >> working hardware can help. > > Real world example: > I was looking at the PCRE library, which now uses a JIT for compilation of > regular expressions (much like YARR for those who are familiar with > JavaScriptCore), since it advertised PowerPC compatibility. It had been > tested extensively in QEMU, but on real Power Macs it crashed because the > cache didn't behave the way it did in QEMU. Fortunately it was easy to > fix. Another real world example - the vax MSCP device attachment code in NetBSD was updated to better use kernel threads after NetBSD-5, but while the first version code ran fine under simh it failed to attach on real hardware - due to a timing related bug. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 05:29:27 2012 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 03:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <000301cd7a84$07e4cf80$17ae6e80$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <1345026567.93549.YahooMailClassic@web180211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 8/14/12, Andrew Lynch wrote: > From: Andrew Lynch > Subject: RE: X Window server for NEC 7220 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 9:18 PM > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:47 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: X Window server for NEC 7220 > > > > I have photos of the NEC APC video boards if anyone > wanted to take a > > gander. > > > > Hey Andy, why don't you consider creating an IBM PGC > type graphics > > controller for your rig. Sounds like a lot of fun to > me. I have one, and a > > Vermont Microsystems clone, 80188 based if you need any > inspiration. > Hi I did a quick look at the IBM PGC and it is enormous. I doubt very much it is a viable option unless there were later models that were a lot more compact. The original IBM PGC spans *three* ISA boards! Even using modern DRAMs there is not practical way to fit it on to an S-100 board. While we are "thinking outside the box" though it did occur to me that the S-100 uPD7200 board could adopt a similar shared memory architecture. Modify the board to be a dumb frame buffer in addition to graphics processor. The VRAM could be dual access by the 7220 and the put it on the bus for the CPU. Make sure either the 7220 has a flag for blanking interval or use a latch to capture that signal on the bus. The VRAM could appear on the S-100 bus as a 256KB SRAM board. It would use four 74LS157's to toggle back and forth between local 7220 and bus CPU access. If the CPU only writes to the VRAM during the blanking interval there would not be any on-screen artifacts. Unfortunately the current S-100 uPD7220 design completely fills the board so the VRAM and related circuitry would have to be exported to a mezzanine board. That would effectively double the builder cost of the board so maybe that's not practical. However, a dumb frame buffer mode on the 7220 board would improve the raster ops necessary for decent X window or other GUI performance. It is something to think about for sure. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Aug 15 06:02:01 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:02:01 +0100 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502B81A9.6010209@wickensonline.co.uk> On 14/08/12 19:20, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack mount, > dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. Also, > I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was considering > moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. > > If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do > you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you > simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think > it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? > > My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the > winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But > summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had > 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as outside > temps, but it can get up there. > > I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since > the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take > well to temperature shifts. > > Thoughts? > > - Earl Earl, My question to you is why you are fighting the urge to move it to your living room. Call yourself a retro-computer enthusiast? ;) Seriously, I've found that humidity is as much of a killer as extreme temperature changes. Even though the temperature in my basement remains fairly constant the dampness that comes from living in the Lake District seems to kill stuff far quicker than if I store it in the garage with the associated large temperature delta. Regards, Mark. -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Aug 15 06:10:21 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:10:21 +0100 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <502B81A9.6010209@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <502B81A9.6010209@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On 15 August 2012 12:02, Mark Wickens wrote: > > My question to you is why you are fighting the urge to move it to your > living room. Call yourself a retro-computer enthusiast? ;) > Seriously, I've found that humidity is as much of a killer as extreme > temperature changes. Even though the temperature in my basement remains > fairly constant the dampness that comes from living in the Lake District > seems to kill stuff far quicker than if I store it in the garage with the > associated large temperature delta. Concern for his life? I've never had a PDP 11 dropped on me while I was asleep by an angry spouse, and I don't want to find out what it's like... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 07:03:18 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:03:18 +0100 Subject: HP3000 Marketing Collateral In-Reply-To: <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <49B1BB16D1864B38B6D7696BB124ED62@G4UGMT41> <50278134.30117.216CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120812114038.O16652@shell.lmi.net> <1344798805.21997.YahooMailNeo@web140603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12 August 2012 20:13, Lee Courtney wrote: > I posted some 1980's vintage HP3000 marketing shots at Flicker: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjBmrAyC > > Enjoy! Thanks for these - most enjoyable. I've left a couple of comments on one of the pics. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 15 08:11:11 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 06:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Aug 14, 12 11:45:03 pm" Message-ID: <201208151311.q7FDBBWT10617044@floodgap.com> > Is there anyone here who understands 16-bit DOS coding well enough to help > me make some 32-bit code work in 16-bit DOS? Is there some reason you can't use DPMI? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever. -- Napoleon Bonaparte --------- From chrise at pobox.com Wed Aug 15 08:45:15 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:45:15 -0500 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <502B3A27.709@neurotica.com> References: <502B3A27.709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120815134515.GA616@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (08/15/2012 at 01:56AM -0400), Dave McGuire wrote: > > If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do > > you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you > > simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think > > it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? > > > > My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the > > winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But > > summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had > > 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as outside > > temps, but it can get up there. > > > > I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since > > the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take > > well to temperature shifts. > > > > Thoughts? > > I would definitely *not* do it. Many people here have restored > garage-kept PDP-11s...point being that, after a few years of that, they > require restoration. I concur with Dave's assessment. I have been "fortunate" to have received and restored equipment that has been kept in garages and barns here in MN and the worst damage has been done by bugs and mice. The second worst by humidity. The liquids emitted by the critters corrode contacts, PCB traces, rot plastics and generally ruin any piece of equipment. You'll have to ensure that none of these move into the gear. I also find that high humidity corrodes contacts and metal surfaces. You'll find what should be nice clean shiney contacts in connectors all turned green or grey and pitted. I've seen this happen even to gear that's been in people's damp basements. My guidance, don't make these machines live where you wouldn't want to live. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Aug 15 09:03:54 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:03:54 -0400 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <502B81A9.6010209@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <502B81A9.6010209@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <502BAC4A.8060703@verizon.net> On 08/15/2012 07:02 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > On 14/08/12 19:20, Earl Evans wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack >> mount, >> dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. >> Also, >> I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was >> considering >> moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. >> >> If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do >> you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? >> Do you >> simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think >> it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? >> >> My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold >> in the >> winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But >> summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had >> 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as >> outside >> temps, but it can get up there. >> >> I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since >> the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not >> take >> well to temperature shifts. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> - Earl > Earl, > > My question to you is why you are fighting the urge to move it to your > living room. Call yourself a retro-computer enthusiast? ;) > Seriously, I've found that humidity is as much of a killer as extreme > temperature changes. Even though the temperature in my basement > remains fairly constant the dampness that comes from living in the > Lake District seems to kill stuff far quicker than if I store it in > the garage with the associated large temperature delta. > > Regards, Mark. > Where I am humidity is the issue, thing like rust, molds, condensation, and vermin (mice and bugs) are the risks. Mice are deadly to electronic gear. Hint if you must do the garage, build a fake false floor (1ft platform) that can circulate air as that will keep the most humid colder air off the gear. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 15 09:10:13 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 07:10:13 -0700 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <20120815134515.GA616@n0jcf.net> References: <502B3A27.709@neurotica.com> <20120815134515.GA616@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: At 8:45 AM -0500 8/15/12, Chris Elmquist wrote: >I also find that high humidity corrodes contacts and metal surfaces. >You'll find what should be nice clean shiney contacts in connectors all >turned green or grey and pitted. I've seen this happen even to gear >that's been in people's damp basements. The Portland area has more of a problem with Humidity than extremes of heat, especially outside of July-Sept. My equipment is stored in the Garage, and I keep a dehumidifier running out there. Honestly the garage is a far better storage location than the "heated" storage units I had the collection in for many years. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 09:15:58 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:15:58 -0400 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27A0503C-AFB4-40E4-ADB5-608E7FE99082@gmail.com> On Aug 14, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since > the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take > well to temperature shifts. > > Thoughts? I don't have direct experience, but my first line of thought is that beyond temperature extremes, you need to consider the effect that the additional humidity and any critters that may occupy the garage can have. The #1 problem I hear about from people restoring machines that have been in garages and sheds on this list is "mouse feces", which is not a problem I'd like to have. If you're concerned about the load it is putting on the floor, why not distribute it a bit? If you can move the rack to a thick piece of plywood (I'd guess at least an inch thick in a normal 4x4 or 4x8 foot section, but there are people more skilled with lumber here), you should have a much better base. - Dave From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 10:07:11 2012 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 11:07:11 -0400 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <502AE751.7040507@compsys.to> References: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> <502AE751.7040507@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > In that case, how do you manage to retain the hardware which > you use in a running state? For many years, I collected PDP-11 > hardware until about 2002 in order to have sufficient spares. After > Ersatz-11 became so enhanced, that was not longer necessary. > What do you do for your hardware? While I don't have to room to store minicomputers and mainframes, I DO keep an Amiga 500 around. I mainly keep it going by keeping it stored in the main part of my home rather than the basement, garage or a storage locker. This is important because it means that I can fire things up for testing every now and then and also because it's not subject to the poor environmental conditions that it would have in a more conventional storage location. Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 15 10:07:13 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <502BAC4A.8060703@verizon.net> from Allison at "Aug 15, 12 10:03:54 am" Message-ID: <201208151507.q7FF7Dm611862242@floodgap.com> > Where I am humidity is the issue, thing like rust, molds, condensation, > and vermin (mice and bugs) > are the risks. Mice are deadly to electronic gear. In Sunny So Cal, I just have to worry about the heat. I have a room in the house with a portable A/C dedicated to the servers and storage. I could put things in the garage, but there are too many temperature swings (lows below freezing in the winter, above 100 F in the summer). I have off-site climate controlled storage for spares and other things. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Use gun kata for fun! Because you worth it!" ------------------------------ From pechter at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 10:09:33 2012 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 11:09:33 -0400 Subject: PDPs in the garage (Earl Evans) Message-ID: > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 11:20:58 -0700 > From: Earl Evans > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: PDPs in the garage > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi folks, > > I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack mount, > dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. Also, > I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was considering > moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. > > If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do > you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you > simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think > it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? > > My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the > winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But > summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had > 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as outside > temps, but it can get up there. > > I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since > the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take > well to temperature shifts. > > Thoughts? > > - Earl I could tell you a story about an 11/780 at Fort Monmouth that ran without air conditioning and with the windows upen for 3 months. Serious intermittant problems sprung up. The humidity had rust on the TU45 tape drive motors. The problem isn't heat -- it's the rate of change. You get serious expansion cracks in the boards when the etches expand and contract. The faster the rate of change in temporature when running (both up and down) the worse the issue. The machine was flaky as hell. The thing would crash VAX/VMS about 5 times daily. I actually would boot the machine and hit each one with my little brass hammer. If it crashed... the board was replaced. Swapped about 6 boards in the data path and cache sections and the box was then stable for over three years. The 11/34's a lot lower in power draw and slower. It's probably less sensitive with some larger etches. I'd worry more about the peripherals. Disk drives with rusty parts in them are probably a bad thing. I know the tape drives would have a problem. The RL02's might even have a different flying height depending upon the temperature which could end in head crashes. If you kept the internal temp under 100 degrees you're probably ok... but if the outside temp's above 100... The real trick is to keep the temp as steady as possible. Perhaps strategic fan placement to keep it from getting too hot in certain places. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 10:47:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:47:38 -0700 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502B622A.15400.B0847@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2012 at 23:45, David Griffith wrote: > > Is there anyone here who understands 16-bit DOS coding well enough to > help me make some 32-bit code work in 16-bit DOS? The solution depends on what you mean as "32 bit code". If you're talking about code that uses the full set of 32-bit registers, but otherwise stays within the bounds of 16-bit real mode addressing (640K), it's simple--you simply tell the assembler that your program is running in 16-bit real mode and use the 32-bit registers explicitly. The proper code will be generated. (I can send you samples if you'd like). Otherwise, you're going to flip the operating mode of the CPU. Do you want to run in segmented/protected mode or "flat 32 bit"mode where 32-bit addressing across the entire memory space of the CPU is used? In both cases, some sort of DPMI (DOS Protected Mode Interface) server is required to handle allocation of memory and to switch the CPU back to 16-bit real mode whenever a DOS system call or BIOS call is made. --Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Wed Aug 15 10:53:03 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:53:03 -0700 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do you > deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you > simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think it's > a risk to even store the system in the garage? > > My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the > winter... I live in a rural area outside of Portland. It is a little colder up here in the winters, and cooler in the summer. Typically, the humidity is a little higher because there is a large stream that flows through our property. I would never consider storing my PDP 11/34a or PDP 8/e in the garage. They are in a temperature and humidity-controlled shop building with concrete floor, and have been there for seven years, with no adverse effect. For a time, while this place was being built, I did have them in a garage for storage. It is a thing that I regretted. They were only in there for about 9 months (a friend's garage in SE Portland from around April through November, so it got the summer heat, and winter coolness and humidity). I put them on platforms made of 2x6's to space them up off the floor. I wrapped the racks in plastic stretch wrap, and put three large bags of desiccant in the base of each rack, with the bags in plastic pans. I locked the RL02's and RK05's. I put mouse/rat poison in the platform, as well as some regular "baited" spring traps to try to avoid critter issues. I did everything I could think of to keep them as safe as possible. It was a waste of time.. When I retrieved the systems, mice had gotten in, left waste, along with chunks of the mouse poison all over the place, and a lot of 'fuzz' (looked like stuffing from sleeping bags or lawn chairs) that they used to make nests. There were dead mice (from the poison) in numerous places, and their corpses made a mess. They also chewed on some power cords and other wires, exposing conductors. Despite the dessicant, there was surface rust on un-painted surfaces. The lubricant in the paper tape punch turned into a sticky goo. Fortunately, the mice didn't get into the disk drives, nor did they hang out in the CPU chassis. Fortunately, they tended to stick around the bottom of the racks, by the power distribution units and the paper tape unit in the PDP 8/e rack. The result is that it took me almost a year in spare time to "un-do" the damage that had been done in nine months. No damage was permanent, but it was a pain in the butt that I'd not care to repeat. My recommendation -- build a platform in your daylight basement to put the machine on that will distribute the load over a larger area if you are concerned about the floor structure. Spreading the load over a larger area reduces the weight per square foot, which provides for better structural loading. Either that, or figure out how to rodent-proof the garage, and provide environmental controls to keep the heat and cold (and humidity) swings to a reasonable range. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From saquinn624 at aol.com Wed Aug 15 11:57:33 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDPs in the garage Message-ID: <8CF491E32EA87C6-1450-7ADD8@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> I used to worry about things like racks and half racks and floor load limits, but consider the following: Think about how heavy a rack is. Probably about 500lbs or so for most of our stuff (I'm not talking maxed-out S/390s or VAX 9000 installations), and there's probably one or two in a room. For the area of the rack, the load/sqft is similar to a 250lb person, which the floor is hopefully specced for. A small piece of 3/4" plywood underneath to keep the carpet happy is nice, bigger one if you're going to be pulling the rack in and out for connections to the rear. n.b. I do put my heavy stuff near the bearing walls so things are more straightforward. From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Aug 15 12:32:39 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:32:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: Re: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) Message-ID: <1510404202.468171.1345051959384.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> < References: Message-ID: <201208151828.OAA24141@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I did not solder straight into a DB9 connector with a housing, but you could$ Manually repairing the damage and picking out the relevant part, > [...] but I don't know the limit for the strange microvax II 9 pin > port (NOT RS232). As far as I can tell the MicroVAX-II DE9 console port is just as much RS232 as any peecee DE9 serial port. That is, electrically it conforms, for the signals it has, but it uses a nonstandard connector (the standard specifies a DB25). Is there something I've missed in this regard? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 15 13:46:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 11:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <1510404202.468171.1345051959384.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1510404202.468171.1345051959384.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20120815112522.N8033@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > For any of you who live in the US, the least expensive place to get good > hearing aids is Costco. Most insurance plans do not cover them, so my > cost was $2600 for the pair, which is 30%-50% less than anywhere else > charges for a similar model. Buying hearing aids at Costco is EXACTLY the same as buying your computer hardware there! They have great prices, IF AND ONLY IF their extremely limited selection happens to include what you want/need. If you need the level of programmability of a Widex Senso Diva, or the connectivity of Oticon Chili, Costco not only won't have them, they won't even KNOW about them. Ask them to DEMONSTRATE the T-Coil! BUT, the Costco Hearing-Aid-Dispenser IS more competent than their "computer specialist". If you expect hearing aids to restore your hearing to "normal", then you will be extremely disappointed - THEY WILL NOT. Will your iPhone provide you an intelligent conversation, as in the commercials? New generations of hearing aids are merely a succession of reduced disappointments. Reducing background noise is a matter of lowering the amplitude of certain frequencies that are expected to be useless, certainly NOT an analysis of the entropy level of the signal to determine what is or isn't "noise". Yes, it will help cut out a drone (whether or not it is the drone that you want), but kids, obnoxious drunks across the room, etc. are still gonna be louder than what you want to hear. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com $6K for current aids From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 13:46:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:46:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <502AE751.7040507@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Aug 14, 12 08:03:29 pm Message-ID: > In that case, how do you manage to retain the hardware which > you use in a running state? For many years, I collected PDP-11 > hardware until about 2002 in order to have sufficient spares. After > Ersatz-11 became so enhanced, that was not longer necessary. > What do you do for your hardware? It depends -- a lot -- on the machine (or peripehral), and I must admit I tend to actively colelct machines i know I can keep going. The first point (and this will probably start another flamewar) is that I do component-level repair. You might well find it impossible to find, say, a memory address PCB for an HP9820 calculator. But the ICs on that board are all pretty noraml TTL parts, only 1 or 2 types are even moderately obscure. You can get parts taht will work quite easily. And if not, well, you know what the chip should do so you can make some circuit to replace it. Of course some chips are goign to be hard to find. ASCIs are amongst them (fortunately the machines I like don't have ASICs :-)), as are some older RAM chips, microprocessors, etc. I nthis case you grab al lthe related bards you can find and raid chips fromthem. Why not just swap the board? well, firstly it might not be the right board (something like an old RAM -- Intel 1103 anyone -- can turn up in various machines), the 'spare' board might be defective due to a fault other than in the chip you want, and in any case if you reduce a board to its compoents you can use them to repari sevearl machines. Of course discete components are gernally still avialable new, or at least something is avaialbel that wil lreplace the failed part. Transformers, motors, etc cna be rewound. It takes time, but it's doable. Flyback transformers are the exception, theare vacuum inmpregnated. I am still lookin for ways to make replacements, I must talk to the model IC engine guys who make ignition coils this way... In a lot of cases swithces (a common problem) can be taken apart and cleaned and will then work again. Mechancial may be standard 9like ball races) or can be made/modified i na reasoanble workshop. Of coruse not everything can still be easily made or obtained but I am often pleasantly suprised by how many parts for my classic computers are still listed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 13:23:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:23:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <502AB05A.1030302@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Aug 14, 12 04:08:58 pm Message-ID: [...] > Also, Tony, I suspect that most of the members of the classiccmp list share > your opinion about simulators or emulators - both programs performing > essentially the same function. I am not sure... I suspect that many people here do like to run the physical hardware, but that I am one of the msot 'extreme' people when it comes to this split. I am very much an 'electronics' person and find beauty in the circutiry (if there's any to find :-)). I can find, say, an intersting motoro control system to be just as interesting as a processor (and in fact more interesting than a standard microprocessor + memory type of design). > Consequently, as a software addict, I can appreciate why Tony and other > hardware addicts find that an emulator or simulator will never be suffice in > a manner that is satisfactory to run the software of any given computer. Which doens't mean that _I_ think simulators have no use. They may have no use _for me_, but that;'s not the same thing at all :-) > > And since I have encountered no one else to share RT-11 enhancements > and bug fixes, it is assumed that no one else is an RT-11 software addict. > (If I am incorrect, please let me know!!!) I suspect that's the a slight problem of licensing. The license status of old DEC OSes is not clear, and buying licenses (even if we could afford them) is non-triival. FOr taat reason people running real PDP11s either don't mention publically what they run, or run things that they can get the license for, like unix. > > On the other hand, as a software addict, when I use the Ersatz-11 emulator, > the ONLY result which is important is that the screen displays results which > have the identical information content. The screen may look a bit different > and the keyboard may have a slightly different configuration. However, that > is not at all important to a software addict like myself. INDEED, sometimes > an emulator may even provide resources that the real (in this case a > PDP-11/83) > computer hardware is unable to provide. Executing the code 100 times as > fast is not a minor advantage. Having disk storage with 1,000,000 times the > capacity and 200 times the throughput is also not a minor advantage. Having > access to RAM which is 1000 times the capacity of the 4 MB available on > the real computer hardware is also not a minor advantage. And last in the > list at this time (but certainly not the only other advantage) and > certainly not > least is the support that Ersatz-11 provides to access the screens of up to > TWELVE ANSI (or VT420 compatible) type terminals by the simple use > of the key combination for which Ersatz-11 currently supports > screens of up to 255 columns by 60 lines. (For those interested, one of > the KED variants which I modified called K42.SAV now supports screens > of that size - if anyone had read this far!!) Howewver, while those are certainly advantages when developing new software, fixing bugs and the like, in the end the final version o fhte softare should eb able to run o nthe real hardare, with the stnadard amount of memory and disk space, and at a reeasonalbe speed. If not, then I would argue you've not really written a piece of PDP11 software. [...] > So while I wish the hardware addicts well, viva the software addicts!!!! > And on that point I totally agree with you. Let me relate a little anecdote... I have interests otehr than old computers (!). One of them is telephones, and I am a memeory of a relevant club. This club recently held a meeting near London, at the works of a company that restores telephone kiosks. Now, you also know that I am not exactly tactful, I tend to say what I mean. I went to said event, since it was pretty near. Now, telehpone kiosks are not really 'my thing;, I am interested (as you would guess) in the electrical/electronic side of telephony. But I said to the people form the company : 'Although I will be frank and say that this is not my main interest, I think it's graat that you are restoring and preserving the kiosks. They are certainly part of the history of telephones in the UK, and if everybody had the same intersts as me then that part of the history would be lost. We need people with interests in all aspects of telephony'. And I feel exactly the same way about classic computers. The software _is_ important. The marketting materials are important. And so on. They are not waht I am intersted in, but that's my loss. Classic computing (like the history of telephoens) is a very big area, and nobody can cover al lof it. So I'll do my bit, you do yours. And I will happily acknowledge that emulators have a place in many areas of the hobby. _However_. we started this discussion by what museums should and should nto do. And I still feel that museums, wherever possible, should run the real hardare, at least from time to time (perhaps of special 'running days' like some musems of stational steam engines, etc do). Her's another analogyy... Most people, I think, feel that a live musical consert (pick whatever sort of music you like) is somehow 'better' than a recording. That's not to say that recordings don't provide a lot of enjpyment, of course they do. But I think people would be very annoyued if they paid to attend a concerta and rather than hearing the band/group/orchestra/singers/,,, live they simply got to hear the output from audiop CDs (I am assumign the necessary copyright clearances, etc have been obtained). You can, in general, listen to recordings at home, you go to the concert for something 'extra'. Of coruse selling recordings of said music at rhe concert is probably a good idea, most people would buy the CD to listen to later. Now, goign back to classic computing, most people can run the emulators at home if they so wish. And the emulators do, undoubtedly, provide soemthign for hte 'feel' of the real machine. But if you go to the museum you should get soemthign rather more, something you can't get at home. And that probably means the msueum should run the real hardware. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 15 13:35:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:35:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 14, 12 06:07:39 pm Message-ID: > > So while I wish the hardware addicts well, viva the software addicts!!!! > > Personally, I like the real hardware and enjoy constructing new hacks and > keeping the original gear working both. I also write code, but far more > system-level code than application code. To me, at the level I write at, > I need a 100% faithful hardware emulation from my simulators. It's not > good enough that a FORTRAN or BASIC program will run, pull in text Agreed. If you want to run BASIC programs there are many easier ways to do it :-). I find it curious that people will write programs in a high level language for some long-lost machine and run them under an emualtor of said machine when they probably could get the same language for the PC they were running the emulator on. For supporing exisitng software, sure I can understnad the use of emulators there. But writing a program in, say, C64 BASIC under an emualtor on a PC when there are better BASICs that are native to said PC? > from a disk or tape file and smash together the data and spit out the > right characters for output. I care if bits in I/O registers flip and clear > in the right combination (though I care less if it takes 1us or 0.001us > as long as it's perceived by my code to be in the right sequence with > no atomic operations broken). > > In general, most emulators do a fine job of this or the OS would never > load in the first place, but there are edge cases, which is why, for > example, in VICE, you can select logical emulation of the model > 1541 floppy drive or exact emulation. Logical emulation presents > far less load on the host and if all you do is load and save files > and send non-exotic commands to read and write data, it all works > fine. If your program needs to manipulate data structures and buffers > behind the scenes (CBM DOS allows the main CPU to read and write > arbitrary bytes in the disk drive CPU's memory space using simple > textual commands that are syntactically the same as the commands > to load and save and review the directory, so it's not out of the question > to emulate it all). There is a similar issue in writing a PERQ emulator. The PERQ 2 family have a Z80 processor for low speed I/O (seiral prots, keyboard, mouse, HPIB, floppy disk IIRC). The ROM hung off said Z80 contains just enough code ot boot the machine (handle keyboard and floppy), the main program is ethen loaded into the Z80's RAM by the main PERQ processor. Most the time you run the Z80 code that came with the OS and never bother about it. But in theory, although it's almost entriely undocuemtned, it's possible to run your own code there. DO you emulate that or not? Incidentally,m the Z80 code, at least the ROM, is a rather nice cooperative multitasking system. > So this is not a condemnation of emulation, but it is a > cautionary tale that sometimes, it's not as easy as it > appears to "get it right", and that's where having real > working hardware can help. You say, "almost all The real test for an emulator is 'does the real machien do exactly the same thing?' -tony From lists at loomcom.com Wed Aug 15 14:11:48 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:11:48 -0400 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120815191148.GA23362@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:20:58AM -0700, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack mount, > dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. Also, > I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was considering > moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. I guess I'll agree with the general consensus: If you don't have to, don't. If you do have to, make the best of it that you can. Also, I see a huge difference between just STORING something in a garage, and actually WORKING on it or running it. If you're storing something in a garage and you don't look at it for months and months, it has more of a chance of getting infested or damaged. If you're actively working on it or using it, you get a chance to inspect it frequently and you're much less likely to be surprised by mice or rust or other nasties. In my case I really have no other choice. At least while I'm actively working on something, it _has_ to live in the garage. I live in a small townhouse, and the garage is the only place in the unit that can be accessed by a vehicle. Sorry, I'm not carting a PDP-anything up the stairs! I did too much of that in my 20s, not gonna do it in my 40s :) Plus, my tiny workshop is adjacent to the garage, at the foot of the stairs that lead up to the living area. My garage is actually half underground, so temperature is never an issue. It's about 60 to 70 degrees year round. Humidity is the only concern, especially because the laundry is nearby, so I run a dehumidifier and monitor with a hygrometer. When they're not actively being worked on, they go into a storage unit. The storage unit is (alas) not temperature controlled, but it has excellent air flow, low humidity, and no evidence of mice. -Seth From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 15 17:07:57 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <201208151311.q7FDBBWT10617044@floodgap.com> References: <201208151311.q7FDBBWT10617044@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Is there anyone here who understands 16-bit DOS coding well enough to help >> me make some 32-bit code work in 16-bit DOS? > > Is there some reason you can't use DPMI? Yes. I'm trying to make the program runnable on 16-bit DOS machines (8088, 80286). I might make a version for DPMI-capable machines, but this is the last nasty chunk to crunch before I declare the program mature. For the curious, it's Frotz at https://github.com/DavidGriffith/frotz -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Aug 15 17:10:30 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 23:10:30 +0100 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <502BAC4A.8060703@verizon.net> References: <502B81A9.6010209@wickensonline.co.uk> <502BAC4A.8060703@verizon.net> Message-ID: <502C1E56.3030302@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/08/2012 15:03, Allison wrote: > Hint if you must do the garage, build a fake false floor (1ft platform) > that can circulate air > as that will keep the most humid colder air off the gear. I'm in York, UK, so temperature extremes aren't common. I keep my collection in the garage, but then that's somewhat modified: the walls have an internal timber frame with insulation and plasterboard on the inside, and the floor is a reclaimed computer floor, with about 8" of free air between it and the original concrete. None of that need cost much money. Two other features help. There's a circular air vent in each of two diagonally opposite corners, and under one of them is a 12V fan, reclaimed, IIRC, from a PC power supply. That's driven by a small solar panel designed for trickle charging vehicle batteries, about a foot square, on the roof, which seems to provide enough air movement. The second feature is a small dehumidifier, which is set to provide moderate dryness -- not too much, for antistatic reasons. I think the humidity control seems to be more important than temperature, and it doesn't cost much to run (but I've not found a way to run it off a 12" 12V solar panel yet :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 17:44:44 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:44:44 -0600 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <502C1E56.3030302@dunnington.plus.com> References: <502B81A9.6010209@wickensonline.co.uk> <502BAC4A.8060703@verizon.net> <502C1E56.3030302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: When I worked for DEC a research group moved to the U of Illinois to a basement office. they wisely built a 2 x 12 or so frame and covered it with plywood. Their concern was flooding. Ihave done this in the past and I highly recommend this if you have the head space. If your cabinets have feet (anti tipping) make it large enough for them. Think about treated lumber for the frame. Paul On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/08/2012 15:03, Allison wrote: > >> Hint if you must do the garage, build a fake false floor (1ft platform) >> that can circulate air >> as that will keep the most humid colder air off the gear. > > I'm in York, UK, so temperature extremes aren't common. I keep my > collection in the garage, but then that's somewhat modified: the walls > have an internal timber frame with insulation and plasterboard on the > inside, and the floor is a reclaimed computer floor, with about 8" of > free air between it and the original concrete. None of that need cost > much money. > > Two other features help. There's a circular air vent in each of two > diagonally opposite corners, and under one of them is a 12V fan, > reclaimed, IIRC, from a PC power supply. That's driven by a small solar > panel designed for trickle charging vehicle batteries, about a foot > square, on the roof, which seems to provide enough air movement. The > second feature is a small dehumidifier, which is set to provide moderate > dryness -- not too much, for antistatic reasons. > > I think the humidity control seems to be more important than > temperature, and it doesn't cost much to run (but I've not found a way > to run it off a 12" 12V solar panel yet :-) > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Aug 15 18:07:26 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1345072046.54794.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 8/15/12, David Griffith wrote: > > Is there some reason you can't use DPMI? > > Yes.? I'm trying to make the program runnable on 16-bit > DOS machines (8088, 80286).? I might make a version for > DPMI-capable machines, but this is the last nasty chunk to > crunch before I declare the program mature. Then there's no magic bullet here. You either need a compiler that implements double-precision integer arithmetic, e.g., synthesizing 32-bit arithmetic from multiple 16-bit operations, or rework the program logic to operate with smaller integers. --Bill From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 15 18:15:19 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <502B622A.15400.B0847@cclist.sydex.com> References: <502B622A.15400.B0847@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Aug 2012 at 23:45, David Griffith wrote: > >> Is there anyone here who understands 16-bit DOS coding well enough to >> help me make some 32-bit code work in 16-bit DOS? > > The solution depends on what you mean as "32 bit code". If you're > talking about code that uses the full set of 32-bit registers, but > otherwise stays within the bounds of 16-bit real mode addressing > (640K), it's simple--you simply tell the assembler that your program > is running in 16-bit real mode and use the 32-bit registers > explicitly. The proper code will be generated. (I can send you > samples if you'd like). > > Otherwise, you're going to flip the operating mode of the CPU. Do > you want to run in segmented/protected mode or "flat 32 bit"mode > where 32-bit addressing across the entire memory space of the CPU is > used? In both cases, some sort of DPMI (DOS Protected Mode > Interface) server is required to handle allocation of memory and to > switch the CPU back to 16-bit real mode whenever a DOS system call or > BIOS call is made. The basic problem appears to be that the code makes use of long ints. DOS-16 mangles that, giving you only the bottom half. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Wed Aug 15 18:41:27 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:41:27 -0400 Subject: Remaining S-100 board PCBs Message-ID: <002501cd7b3f$7de9e8d0$79bdba70$@YAHOO.COM> Hi The last couple weeks have been pretty good. I can see the bottom of the stack of S-100 board PCBs and will be ordering some more new boards and additional reorders soon. There are two S-100 Serial IO board and five S-100 8088 CPU board PCBs left. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! Thanks to John Monahan for all his dedication in making these PCBs possible for the S-100 hobbyist community. Both the S-100 Serial IO and S-100 8088 CPU board PCBs have been built and tested repeatedly and are known working units. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Aug 15 19:21:29 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:21:29 -0400 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <502B3A27.709@neurotica.com> References: <502B3A27.709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I would be concerned by the temperature fluctuations. I had problem in a machine shop that wasn't heated because the temperature would rise in the morning, causing moisture to condense on the cool machinery. Some of them still have rust from that. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-15, at 1:56 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/14/2012 02:20 PM, Earl Evans wrote: >> I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack mount, >> dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. Also, >> I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was considering >> moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. >> >> If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do >> you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do you >> simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think >> it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? >> >> My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in the >> winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But >> summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had >> 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as outside >> temps, but it can get up there. >> >> I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since >> the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take >> well to temperature shifts. >> >> Thoughts? > > I would definitely *not* do it. Many people here have restored > garage-kept PDP-11s...point being that, after a few years of that, they > require restoration. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 19:42:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:42:17 -0700 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , <502B622A.15400.B0847@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2012 at 16:15, David Griffith wrote: > The basic problem appears to be that the code makes use of long ints. > DOS-16 mangles that, giving you only the bottom half. What are you using for a C compiler? Most 16-bit DOS C compilers and runtimes handle "long" and "unsigned long" just fine as 32-bit numbers. If it's the matter of the source (that 32-bit platforms treat "int" as 32 bits), consider creating a conditional typedef for the int type- -define it as "int" for the large platforms and "long" for the 16- bitters. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Aug 15 21:12:32 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Window server for NEC 7220 In-Reply-To: <1345026567.93549.YahooMailClassic@web180211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <000301cd7a84$07e4cf80$17ae6e80$@YAHOO.COM> <1345026567.93549.YahooMailClassic@web180211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1345083152.98298.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Andrew Lynch Hi I did a quick look at the IBM PGC and it is enormous.? I doubt very much it is a viable option unless there were later models that were a lot more compact.? The original IBM PGC spans *three* ISA boards!? Even using modern DRAMs there is not practical way to fit it on to an S-100 board. C: Actually it occupies 2 ISA slots, and has a 3rd board between those (the CGA emulator). No I'd agree it's impractical to duplicate it's functionality in discrete logic for an s-100 board. And no there weren't later versions. But it is an interesting item that, while irrelevant to this post, uses a standard 8088 and a DAC that's similar to the one used in the IBM PS/2's. It would be interesting to compress all that glue into 1 or 2? asics. But that's defeating the purpose of implementing such a card based on it's almost exclusive use of off the shelf parts. ?I do have a miserably disorganized set of docs that includes the PGC, schematics even I believe. If you're interested, let me know. ?And next time I'd go multibus ;) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 15 21:22:03 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502B622A.15400.B0847@cclist.sydex.com>, <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Aug 2012 at 16:15, David Griffith wrote: > >> The basic problem appears to be that the code makes use of long ints. >> DOS-16 mangles that, giving you only the bottom half. > > What are you using for a C compiler? Most 16-bit DOS C compilers and > runtimes handle "long" and "unsigned long" just fine as 32-bit > numbers. > > If it's the matter of the source (that 32-bit platforms treat "int" > as 32 bits), consider creating a conditional typedef for the int type- > -define it as "int" for the large platforms and "long" for the 16- > bitters. I'm using Turbo C++ 3.00. It's definitely chopping off half of the bits. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 21:32:34 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 21:32:34 -0500 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: <502B3A27.709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: sounds like the 8a i rescuded from an abandond building sat for 9yrs in unheated building going from -40+40 in those 9 yrs On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I would be concerned by the temperature fluctuations. I had problem in a > machine shop that wasn't heated because the temperature would rise in the > morning, causing moisture to condense on the cool machinery. Some of them > still have rust from that. > > -------- > Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP > > On 2012-08-15, at 1:56 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On 08/14/2012 02:20 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > >> I'm a little concerned about the load that my PDP-11 cabinet (rack > mount, > >> dual RL02 drives) is putting on the floor in my daylight basement. > Also, > >> I'm thinking that recovering the space might be nice, so I was > considering > >> moving the PDP-11 system back to the garage. > >> > >> If any of you have a PDP or other big-iron systems in the garage, how do > >> you deal with temperature extremes (hot in summer, cold in winter)? Do > you > >> simply not operate the computer when it's too hot or cold? Do you think > >> it's a risk to even store the system in the garage? > >> > >> My location is Portland, Oregon, so it doesn't really get super cold in > the > >> winter. I think the coldest I've measured in the garage is 50F. But > >> summer can get pretty warm. It's scheduled to get 85F today, and we had > >> 100F a week or two ago. Of course the garage doesn't get as hot as > outside > >> temps, but it can get up there. > >> > >> I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since > >> the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not > take > >> well to temperature shifts. > >> > >> Thoughts? > > > > I would definitely *not* do it. Many people here have restored > > garage-kept PDP-11s...point being that, after a few years of that, they > > require restoration. > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > > New Kensington, PA > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 21:37:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:37:52 -0700 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <502BFA90.28688.14C617A@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2012 at 19:22, David Griffith wrote: > > If it's the matter of the source (that 32-bit platforms treat "int" > > as 32 bits), consider creating a conditional typedef for the int > > type- -define it as "int" for the large platforms and "long" for the > > 16- bitters. > > I'm using Turbo C++ 3.00. It's definitely chopping off half of the > bits. I *knew* there was a reason that I stayed away from Borland. Microsoft C handles 32-bit ints just fine. Are you certain it's not just a matter of a misplaced or missing cast? As long as you don't mind restricting the thing to 386+ platforms, you can use something like DJGPP that comes with its own DPMI server. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Aug 15 21:37:51 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 22:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: <502B622A.15400.B0847@cclist.sydex.com> <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201208160237.WAA26231@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm using Turbo C++ 3.00. It's definitely chopping off half of the > bits. Is the code anything you can let people like us look at? I'd be willing to have a look. It seems to me it could be a bug in the code - it's easy to truncate things to int without realizing it - and I'm moderately good at spotting such things. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 15 21:46:48 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 21:46:48 -0500 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <27A0503C-AFB4-40E4-ADB5-608E7FE99082@gmail.com> References: <27A0503C-AFB4-40E4-ADB5-608E7FE99082@gmail.com> Message-ID: <502C5F18.9050807@charter.net> Worse than rodent feces is rodent urine which is pretty corrosive. Temperature fluctuations kill chips. Humidity causes corrosion, especially when mixed with the road salt that finds its way into my garage on my car's tires or in slush attached to the car. I have spares and overflow in my garage, and anything that isn't bagged up or sealed up in some kind of box (preferably plastic) seems to get some level of eventually. Bags and boxes around stuff generally keep them (and much of the corrosion caused by humidity) out - but temperature is still a big problem. On 8/15/2012 9:15 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 14, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > >> I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since >> the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take >> well to temperature shifts. >> >> Thoughts? > I don't have direct experience, but my first line of thought is that > beyond temperature extremes, you need to consider the effect that the > additional humidity and any critters that may occupy the garage can > have. The #1 problem I hear about from people restoring machines that > have been in garages and sheds on this list is "mouse feces", which is > not a problem I'd like to have. > > If you're concerned about the load it is putting on the floor, why not > distribute it a bit? If you can move the rack to a thick piece of > plywood (I'd guess at least an inch thick in a normal 4x4 or 4x8 foot > section, but there are people more skilled with lumber here), you > should have a much better base. > > > - Dave > > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 15 22:17:18 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:17:18 -0700 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <502BFA90.28688.14C617A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com>, <502BFA90.28688.14C617A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <502C663E.4040009@jwsss.com> On 8/15/2012 7:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Aug 2012 at 19:22, David Griffith wrote: > >>> If it's the matter of the source (that 32-bit platforms treat "int" >>> as 32 bits), consider creating a conditional typedef for the int >>> type- -define it as "int" for the large platforms and "long" for the >>> 16- bitters. >> I'm using Turbo C++ 3.00. It's definitely chopping off half of the >> bits. > I *knew* there was a reason that I stayed away from Borland. > Microsoft C handles 32-bit ints just fine. Are you certain it's not > just a matter of a misplaced or missing cast? > > As long as you don't mind restricting the thing to 386+ platforms, > you can use something like DJGPP that comes with its own DPMI server. > > --Chuck > > i have a microdata 32/s simulator written in borland c. A friend wrote it before he passed away, and I don't have good access to his toolchain, to you got what you got. It's been a real chore trying to get it to work in gcc. We discussed using gcc before he stated coding and he had borland on his home computer. maybe someday I'll get it to work with gcc, but for now he took maximum advantage of the 16 bit'ness since there were a lot of 16 bit operations the hardware did very well. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 15 22:51:28 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <201208160237.WAA26231@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <502B622A.15400.B0847@cclist.sydex.com> <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com> <201208160237.WAA26231@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2012, Mouse wrote: >> I'm using Turbo C++ 3.00. It's definitely chopping off half of the >> bits. > > Is the code anything you can let people like us look at? I'd be > willing to have a look. It seems to me it could be a bug in the code - > it's easy to truncate things to int without realizing it - and I'm > moderately good at spotting such things. Please look. It's at https://github.com/DavidGriffith/frotz. If you need a ready-to-use development environment, let me know. The problem code is in the blorb/ subdirectory. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 15 22:54:27 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <502BFA90.28688.14C617A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com>, <502BFA90.28688.14C617A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Aug 2012 at 19:22, David Griffith wrote: > >>> If it's the matter of the source (that 32-bit platforms treat "int" >>> as 32 bits), consider creating a conditional typedef for the int >>> type- -define it as "int" for the large platforms and "long" for the >>> 16- bitters. >> >> I'm using Turbo C++ 3.00. It's definitely chopping off half of the >> bits. > > I *knew* there was a reason that I stayed away from Borland. > Microsoft C handles 32-bit ints just fine. Are you certain it's not > just a matter of a misplaced or missing cast? > > As long as you don't mind restricting the thing to 386+ platforms, > you can use something like DJGPP that comes with its own DPMI server. I'm quite sure the casts are okay. So, if I somehow dig up an old Microsoft C compiler, I should be fine? I'm trying to keep this thing compatible with pre-386 for the simple reason of playing old Infocom games on old machines. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 15 23:20:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 21:20:28 -0700 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , <502BFA90.28688.14C617A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <502C129C.19157.1AA5309@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2012 at 20:54, David Griffith wrote: > I'm quite sure the casts are okay. So, if I somehow dig up an old > Microsoft C compiler, I should be fine? I'm trying to keep this thing > compatible with pre-386 for the simple reason of playing old Infocom > games on old machines. Should be--I've got tons of old MSVC 16-bit code that uses 32 bits. Some of it even uses 64 bit integers (a little assembly library there). No problems at all. MSVC 8.00c is very stable. I think it was the last 16-bit C that Microsoft shipped. --Chuck From jjacocks at mac.com Wed Aug 15 15:21:49 2012 From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:21:49 -0400 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: <50287302.8020207@neurotica.com> References: <50287302.8020207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/11/2012 04:53 PM, Richard wrote: >> Does anyone have one of these boards? >> >> They are derived from research at UNC on Pixel Planes. >> > > I'm fairly certain that I have at least one of each of the variants > here. If I can find them, you should be able to talk me out of them > pretty easily. I love DECstations, but I'm only really interested in > them for fairly simple general-use graphics, so you'd be able to make > better use of them than I. > > At the very least I'll get the high-res images you want. I'll dig for > them tomorrow. If anyone here has spare texture memory for the PXG Turbo, I have one for my DECstation 5000/240 that has zero RAM. Needless to say, it doesn't work, and I'm relegated to my PMAGB-B. I'm still looking for a 5000/260 CPU and some more memory for the DECstation, if anyone has that, either. Thanks! - Alex From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Aug 16 03:53:43 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:53:43 +0100 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <502C5F18.9050807@charter.net> References: <27A0503C-AFB4-40E4-ADB5-608E7FE99082@gmail.com> <502C5F18.9050807@charter.net> Message-ID: Get a cat! It is a well known fact that rodents and felines are seldom found together. The cat will take up residence on the warmest part of your equipment. The cat will get bigger and the rodents fewer and fewer. Where I grew up (about 1/2 Mile from here) there was a farm opposite. The barn had several resident cats. I asked the Farmers wife when she fed them as I had never seen her do so. 'Oh!' she said 'towards the end of October when they might get a bit hungry!' Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger Sent: 16 August 2012 03:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDPs in the garage Worse than rodent feces is rodent urine which is pretty corrosive. Temperature fluctuations kill chips. Humidity causes corrosion, especially when mixed with the road salt that finds its way into my garage on my car's tires or in slush attached to the car. I have spares and overflow in my garage, and anything that isn't bagged up or sealed up in some kind of box (preferably plastic) seems to get some level of eventually. Bags and boxes around stuff generally keep them (and much of the corrosion caused by humidity) out - but temperature is still a big problem. On 8/15/2012 9:15 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 14, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > >> I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since >> the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take >> well to temperature shifts. >> >> Thoughts? > I don't have direct experience, but my first line of thought is that > beyond temperature extremes, you need to consider the effect that the > additional humidity and any critters that may occupy the garage can > have. The #1 problem I hear about from people restoring machines that > have been in garages and sheds on this list is "mouse feces", which is > not a problem I'd like to have. > > If you're concerned about the load it is putting on the floor, why not > distribute it a bit? If you can move the rack to a thick piece of > plywood (I'd guess at least an inch thick in a normal 4x4 or 4x8 foot > section, but there are people more skilled with lumber here), you > should have a much better base. > > > - Dave > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 16 03:58:06 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 03:58:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wanted: video board for AlphaStation 200 4/233 Message-ID: I have an AlphaStation 200 4/233 which was given to me without a video board or floppy drive. I stuck an old Teac FD-235HF in the floppy bay to fill the hole (no data cable), but have no idea what I really need for a video board. I'm planning to use this machine as a low end testbed machine for Debian Linux since the Alpha port needs to be brought back up, so I know I probably need a board that can handle more than 256 colors. I think this eliminates the ZLXp-E1 (TGA 8-plane), but at the same time it may be a good idea to be able to test with a TGA board as well since there are going to be quite a few of these machines out there which have a TGA board. I will probably also want to run ULTRIX or OSF/1 on the machine at some point, assuming I can find installation media. Based on the datasheet I found online, these appear to have been (some?) of the video boards offered as options for this system: ZLXp-E1 8-plane PBXGA-AA PBXGA-AN [NT] ZLXp-E2 24-plane PBXGA-BA PBXGA-BN [NT] ZLXp-E3 24-plane PBXGA-CA PBXGA-CN [NT] ZLXp-L1 24-plane PBXGC-AA ZLXp-L2 24-plane PBXGC-BA Does anyone have an extra video board laying around that they would be willing to part with for postage costs? This machine has been sitting unused for far too long and I'd really like to put it to work. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Aug 16 06:35:24 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 12:35:24 +0100 Subject: Wanted: video board for AlphaStation 200 4/233 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An S3 Trio card will work with OpenVMS and almost certainly with Debian, although the picture quality is fairly poor. I have a PowerStorm 3D3O (ZLXp-E1) which will do 8 plane at 1280x1024. I've not tried it in my AlphaServer 300 4/266 because I installed a ZLXp-E2. I would recommend this card if you can find one - I got one new from the USA for about $40. Postage would depend on where you are in the world. Regards, Mark From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 16 08:28:21 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 06:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , <502B622A.15400.B0847@cclist.sydex.com>, <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 15 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 15 Aug 2012 at 16:15, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> The basic problem appears to be that the code makes use of long ints. >>> DOS-16 mangles that, giving you only the bottom half. >> >> What are you using for a C compiler? Most 16-bit DOS C compilers and >> runtimes handle "long" and "unsigned long" just fine as 32-bit >> numbers. >> >> If it's the matter of the source (that 32-bit platforms treat "int" >> as 32 bits), consider creating a conditional typedef for the int type- >> -define it as "int" for the large platforms and "long" for the 16- >> bitters. > > I'm using Turbo C++ 3.00. It's definitely chopping off half of the bits. > Dave, I'd give Open Watcom a shot - it includes a DOS extender if you need it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From orgwood at iaxs.net Thu Aug 16 07:08:53 2012 From: orgwood at iaxs.net (Original Woodworks) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 07:08:53 -0500 Subject: PPS 4/1 Message-ID: Did you ever get your info on this series? I was a Rockwell rep and have it plus I bought a few Mattel games for my kids too! Original Woodworks 4631 Lake Ave., White Bear Lake, MN 55110 By appointment only! (651) 429-2222 www.originalwoodworks.com orgwood at iaxs.net From doc at vaxen.net Thu Aug 16 10:06:56 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 10:06:56 -0500 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , <502BDF79.23802.E2906D@cclist.sydex.com>, <502BFA90.28688.14C617A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <502D0C90.9010203@vaxen.net> On 8/15/12 10:54 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm quite sure the casts are okay. So, if I somehow dig up an old > Microsoft C compiler, I should be fine? I'm trying to keep this thing > compatible with pre-386 for the simple reason of playing old Infocom > games on old machines. I have a box of MS C v5.0. IIRC it's on CD, not floppy, and comes with docs. Want it? Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 10:20:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:20:26 -0700 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <502D0C90.9010203@vaxen.net> References: , , <502D0C90.9010203@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <502CAD4A.1869.38FBE4@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Aug 2012 at 10:06, Doc wrote: > I have a box of MS C v5.0. IIRC it's on CD, not floppy, and comes > with docs. The last (1.52c/8.00c?) version of 16-bit MSVC is available free for download if you know a MSDN subscriber. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 16 10:29:18 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <502CAD4A.1869.38FBE4@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <502D0C90.9010203@vaxen.net> <502CAD4A.1869.38FBE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Aug 2012 at 10:06, Doc wrote: > >> I have a box of MS C v5.0. IIRC it's on CD, not floppy, and comes >> with docs. > > The last (1.52c/8.00c?) version of 16-bit MSVC is available free for > download if you know a MSDN subscriber. > It's listed as Visual C++ 1.52. I'd still recommend Open Watcom - it wipes the floor with just about every other DOS based C compiler out there. It'll also generate Win16/32 binaries and OS/2 if memory serves. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 16 10:40:15 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 15:40:15 +0000 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: <502D0C90.9010203@vaxen.net> <502CAD4A.1869.38FBE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120816154015.GB31244@zoho.com> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 08:29:18AM -0700, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >On 16 Aug 2012 at 10:06, Doc wrote: > > > >> I have a box of MS C v5.0. IIRC it's on CD, not floppy, and comes > >>with docs. > > > >The last (1.52c/8.00c?) version of 16-bit MSVC is available free for > >download if you know a MSDN subscriber. > > > It's listed as Visual C++ 1.52. > > I'd still recommend Open Watcom - it wipes the floor with just about > every other DOS based C compiler out there. It'll also generate > Win16/32 binaries and OS/2 if memory serves. There is also Digital Mars which ought to be pretty good. -- _ _ ._ _ _ <_> ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _| | ___ | ' ' || |/ | '| '_>/ . \/ | '/ . \/ . |/ ._> |_|_|_||_|\_|_.|_| \___/\_|_.\___/\___|\___. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 10:54:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:54:14 -0700 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , <502CAD4A.1869.38FBE4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <502CB536.21048.57EB43@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Aug 2012 at 8:29, geneb wrote: > It's listed as Visual C++ 1.52. Which is an 8.00c compiler (Microsoft's strange idea of calling the whole IDE platform by a different version than the compiler itself. Go figure.) It's a DOS compiler, only sort-of. It won't run on anything less than an 80386, if memory serves. > I'd still recommend Open Watcom - it wipes the floor with just about > every other DOS based C compiler out there. It'll also generate > Win16/32 binaries and OS/2 if memory serves. That's certainly another option. It always seemed to me that MSVC had more aggressive optimization, however. (/Ox switch). --Chuck From paco.linux at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 10:55:15 2012 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:55:15 +0200 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. Message-ID: Bad year : http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/08/16/hans-camenzind-inventor-of-the-555-dies/ Paco -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| ??? |0|0|0| From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 16 11:19:38 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: <502CB536.21048.57EB43@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502CAD4A.1869.38FBE4@cclist.sydex.com>, <502CB536.21048.57EB43@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Aug 2012 at 8:29, geneb wrote: > >> It's listed as Visual C++ 1.52. > > Which is an 8.00c compiler (Microsoft's strange idea of calling the > whole IDE platform by a different version than the compiler itself. > Go figure.) > > It's a DOS compiler, only sort-of. It won't run on anything less > than an 80386, if memory serves. > >> I'd still recommend Open Watcom - it wipes the floor with just about >> every other DOS based C compiler out there. It'll also generate >> Win16/32 binaries and OS/2 if memory serves. > > That's certainly another option. It always seemed to me that MSVC > had more aggressive optimization, however. (/Ox switch). > Watcom C was always the choice of game developers that wanted really good performance. It's my understanding that the Watcom optimizer was pretty much unparalleled until the last decade or so. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cube1 at charter.net Thu Aug 16 12:07:37 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 12:07:37 -0500 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: <27A0503C-AFB4-40E4-ADB5-608E7FE99082@gmail.com> <502C5F18.9050807@charter.net> Message-ID: <502D28D9.8000706@charter.net> I don't think I would want to make a cat live in my garage during the winter. Rather cold in the winter here in Wisconsin, and ventilation notwithstanding, can get pretty hot in the summer. Winter is when the mice tend to like to nest in my stuff to stay warm. Barns are much warmer in the winter, because of the animals (usually cows in this neck of the woods) that live there. Might help keep the gophers, squirrels, chipmunks, golden-manteled ground squirrels and rabbits away from my wife's garden, though. ;^) On 8/16/2012 3:53 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Get a cat! > It is a well known fact that rodents and felines are seldom found together. > The cat will take up residence on the warmest part of your equipment. > The cat will get bigger and the rodents fewer and fewer. > > Where I grew up (about 1/2 Mile from here) there was a farm opposite. > The barn had several resident cats. I asked the Farmers wife when she fed > them as I had never seen her do so. 'Oh!' she said 'towards the end of > October when they might get a bit hungry!' > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger > Sent: 16 August 2012 03:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDPs in the garage > > Worse than rodent feces is rodent urine which is pretty corrosive. > > Temperature fluctuations kill chips. > > Humidity causes corrosion, especially when mixed with the road salt that > finds its way into my garage on my car's tires or in slush attached to > the car. > > I have spares and overflow in my garage, and anything that isn't bagged > up or sealed up in some kind of box (preferably plastic) seems to get > some level of eventually. Bags and boxes around stuff generally keep > them (and much of the corrosion caused by humidity) out - but > temperature is still a big problem. > > > > On 8/15/2012 9:15 AM, David Riley wrote: >> On Aug 14, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Earl Evans wrote: >> >>> I realize heat can be a big enemy of computers/electronics. Also, since >>> the RL02 drives are mechanical and precision devices, they might not take >>> well to temperature shifts. >>> >>> Thoughts? >> I don't have direct experience, but my first line of thought is that >> beyond temperature extremes, you need to consider the effect that the >> additional humidity and any critters that may occupy the garage can >> have. The #1 problem I hear about from people restoring machines that >> have been in garages and sheds on this list is "mouse feces", which is >> not a problem I'd like to have. >> >> If you're concerned about the load it is putting on the floor, why not >> distribute it a bit? If you can move the rack to a thick piece of >> plywood (I'd guess at least an inch thick in a normal 4x4 or 4x8 foot >> section, but there are people more skilled with lumber here), you >> should have a much better base. >> >> >> - Dave >> >> > > > > > From hachti at hachti.de Thu Aug 16 13:12:11 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:12:11 +0200 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <20120815191148.GA23362@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120815191148.GA23362@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <502D37FB.4060805@hachti.de> Am 15.08.2012 21:11, schrieb Seth Morabito: > Sorry, I'm not carting a PDP-anything up the > stairs! I did too much of that in my 20s, not gonna do it in my 40s:) Nicely spoken! I agree. But I still have some very big iron sitting in the first floor - put it there in my 20s.... :-) -- From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Aug 16 14:50:10 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 12:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need docs for Canon AS-100 Message-ID: <1345146610.10463.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> And other lesser known lesser known intel boxes/pseudo compatibles From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 16 15:00:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 13:00:31 -0700 Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , <502CB536.21048.57EB43@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <502CEEEF.12914.139680E@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Aug 2012 at 9:19, geneb wrote: > Watcom C was always the choice of game developers that wanted really > good performance. It's my understanding that the Watcom optimizer was > pretty much unparalleled until the last decade or so. It could be a matter of to-may-toe vs. to-mah-toe. Around 1994, I was really in the market for a good 32-bit C, so I bought every compiler I could find for Windows/DOS. I was appalled at Watcom's poor optimization in 32-bit mode and put the whole thing aside in favor of, eventually, Microsoft (which I'd been using since it was Lattice C. My test consisted of a few small programs that tested common optimizations, such as common subexpression elimination, removal of invariant expressions from loops, reduction in strength, dead variable removal, bottom-of-loop prefetch, and so on. I examined the generated code, but did not run any timed benchmarks. About two years ago, I gave away the almost-unused boxed set of Watcom C that I'd purchased. I saw no reason to hang onto it. FWIW, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 16 15:30:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:30:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 16, 12 09:53:43 am Message-ID: > > Get a cat! In my experience, a cat 'gets' you :-) Quite why I would want a thing that sheds hair and generates static electricity around my classic computes is a mystery, but I do. I _love_ cats.... > It is a well known fact that rodents and felines are seldom found together. Indeed... > The cat will take up residence on the warmest part of your equipment. > The cat will get bigger and the rodents fewer and fewer. > > Where I grew up (about 1/2 Mile from here) there was a farm opposite. > The barn had several resident cats. I asked the Farmers wife when she fed > them as I had never seen her do so. 'Oh!' she said 'towards the end of > October when they might get a bit hungry!' Hmmm... It seems to be an observed fact (not by me) that cats hunt for fun and not just for food, and that well-fed, strong, cats are actually the best hunders. I can asusre you that if you keep your cat(s) well fed and pampered (as I do), the lifetime of any rodents is still very short :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 16 15:36:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:36:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: from "Paco Linux" at Aug 16, 12 05:55:15 pm Message-ID: > > Bad year : > http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/08/16/hans-camenzind-inventor-of-the-555-= > dies/ '555' could mean many things.. I assume this is the common IC containing a couple of comparators, a flip-flop and output drivers. Often used as an astable or monostable. -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Aug 16 15:51:55 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:51:55 +0200 Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477e756c071fe30c8123086d7357c6cf.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >> >> Get a cat! > > In my experience, a cat 'gets' you :-) > > Quite why I would want a thing that sheds hair and generates static > electricity around my classic computes is a mystery, but I do. I _love_ > cats.... > >> It is a well known fact that rodents and felines are seldom found >> together. > > Indeed... > >> The cat will take up residence on the warmest part of your equipment. >> The cat will get bigger and the rodents fewer and fewer. >> >> Where I grew up (about 1/2 Mile from here) there was a farm opposite. >> The barn had several resident cats. I asked the Farmers wife when she >> fed >> them as I had never seen her do so. 'Oh!' she said 'towards the end of >> October when they might get a bit hungry!' > > Hmmm... It seems to be an observed fact (not by me) that cats hunt for > fun and not just for food, and that well-fed, strong, cats are actually > the best hunders. I can asusre you that if you keep your cat(s) well fed > and pampered (as I do), the lifetime of any rodents is still very short > :-) > > -tony > Ha!. That seems to be a common thing about computer nerds.......... ;=) We have three of them, a dame of 13, a red one of 2 and a gray one of 2, aka, weasel.... (steels snacks for the other 2 whenever she can). Still, I don't let them into my computer room, so no hairs to worry about. (although we need to clean some chairs every few days due to shed hairs from the red one :( And yes, they are spoiled a bit with attention and little snacks now and then! Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 16 16:02:02 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDPs in the garage In-Reply-To: <477e756c071fe30c8123086d7357c6cf.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "E. Groenenberg" at "Aug 16, 12 10:51:55 pm" Message-ID: <201208162102.q7GL22AC6357118@floodgap.com> > We have three of them, a dame of 13, a red one of 2 and a gray one of 2, > aka, weasel.... (steels snacks for the other 2 whenever she can). My little brown Burmese is not allowed in the server room, but she is allowed in the office. Fortunately, she has little interest in computers and the HEPA filter deals with the cat dander -- she mostly sleeps on the ottoman. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Jackie Fisher, who are you? Dreadnought ------------------------------------ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Aug 16 16:13:05 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 23:13:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Paco Linux wrote: > Bad year : > http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/08/16/hans-camenzind-inventor-of-the-555-dies/ I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. Or did you mean the NE555? Christian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 16 16:28:05 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:28:05 -0700 Subject: Tek oscilliscopes (was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502D65E5.4010205@brouhaha.com> Christian Corti wrote: > I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. I like the Tek 465 much better than the 555. And I like the 2245/46/47 even better. But I don't think there's any model that qualifies as "best scope ever made", for the same reason that there isn't any "best car ever made": the category is too broad, and different models are better for meeting different requirements. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 16 16:35:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:35:17 -0400 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502D6795.4070303@neurotica.com> On 08/11/2012 04:53 PM, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have one of these boards? > > They are derived from research at UNC on Pixel Planes. > I finally found mine last night, and took some pics: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/PMAG-D-PXG-1.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/PMAG-D-PXG-2.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/PMAG-D-PXG-3.jpg If you need any other info from them, or additional pics, let me know. (Would someone please forward this to Richard? I'm guessing that he has my mail filtered.) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Aug 16 18:05:36 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 23:05:36 +0000 Subject: 3483 Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7221C6E7C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Sorry for the noise, but just curious, anyone have an IBM 3483 terminal they'd be willing to part with for reasonable consideration?? Thanks! -Ben From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 16 18:13:05 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 16:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , , <502D0C90.9010203@vaxen.net> <502CAD4A.1869.38FBE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 16 Aug 2012 at 10:06, Doc wrote: >> >>> I have a box of MS C v5.0. IIRC it's on CD, not floppy, and comes >>> with docs. >> >> The last (1.52c/8.00c?) version of 16-bit MSVC is available free for >> download if you know a MSDN subscriber. >> > It's listed as Visual C++ 1.52. > > I'd still recommend Open Watcom - it wipes the floor with just about every > other DOS based C compiler out there. It'll also generate Win16/32 binaries > and OS/2 if memory serves. I was playing around with Open Watcom last night, but couldn't get my head wrapped around the weird way it expects Makefiles to be written. Turbo C++ Makefiles are essentially plain old Posix. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jonas at otter.se Thu Aug 16 15:28:04 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:28:04 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502D57D4.2080105@otter.se> On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:23:24 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Now, goign back to classic computing, most people can run the emulators > at home if they so wish. And the emulators do, undoubtedly, provide > soemthign for hte 'feel' of the real machine. But if you go to the museum > you should get soemthign rather more, something you can't get at home. > And that probably means the msueum should run the real hardware. I completely agree. Seeing and hearing a Spitfire flying around above you adds a whole new dimension to seeing a stationary Spitfire in a museum. Recently I went with two of my sons to see the exhibition "Three tons of minicomputers - 40 years with computers in the service of Uppsala University". Both of them are very good programmers and interested in computing, and they found the exhibition very interesting. However, if the exhibits had been running, and they could have heard a line printer or an ASR-33 printing, seen and heard a disk pack seeking, seen the blinkenlights etc, it would have given them a much better idea of what computing was like 40 years ago. That wasn't possible as the exhibition was only a temporary one, but had it been permanent, I definitely agree that they should have been shown running. /Jonas From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 16 18:53:07 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:53:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wanted: video board for AlphaStation 200 4/233 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Mark Wickens wrote: > An S3 Trio card will work with OpenVMS and almost certainly with > Debian, although the picture quality is fairly poor. > > I have a PowerStorm 3D3O (ZLXp-E1) which will do 8 plane at 1280x1024. > I've not tried it in my AlphaServer 300 4/266 because I installed a > ZLXp-E2. I would recommend this card if you can find one - I got one > new from the USA for about $40. > Postage would depend on where you are in the world. I'm on the US side of the pond. With postage rates as high as they are now, it probably would make more sense to find a video card on this side of the pond. I think I've had this machine since 2001 or 2002, so it is very overdue for a video board. I have no idea why a former owner removed it, but perhaps it was one of the better video boards and they had a faster system they wanted to use it in. The missing floppy drive seemed to be more puzzling though. The only thing I've been able to find so far are scrappers on eBay who want $$$ for old PCI video boards, which needless to say isn't economically viable for a machine such as this. I think I'd be tempted to throw a random S3 based board in there if it weren't that I really need to be able test on proper hardware. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 16 19:29:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:29:29 -0400 Subject: Wanted: video board for AlphaStation 200 4/233 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502D9069.20609@neurotica.com> On 08/16/2012 07:53 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> An S3 Trio card will work with OpenVMS and almost certainly with >> Debian, although the picture quality is fairly poor. >> >> I have a PowerStorm 3D3O (ZLXp-E1) which will do 8 plane at 1280x1024. >> I've not tried it in my AlphaServer 300 4/266 because I installed a >> ZLXp-E2. I would recommend this card if you can find one - I got one >> new from the USA for about $40. >> Postage would depend on where you are in the world. > > I'm on the US side of the pond. With postage rates as high as they are > now, it probably would make more sense to find a video card on this side > of the pond. > > I think I've had this machine since 2001 or 2002, so it is very overdue > for a video board. I have no idea why a former owner removed it, but > perhaps it was one of the better video boards and they had a faster > system they wanted to use it in. The missing floppy drive seemed to be > more puzzling though. > > The only thing I've been able to find so far are scrappers on eBay who > want $$$ for old PCI video boards, which needless to say isn't > economically viable for a machine such as this. I think I'd be tempted > to throw a random S3 based board in there if it weren't that I really > need to be able test on proper hardware. I'd guess pretty much any S3-based card would work. I have several, somewhere, some possibly even DEC-branded. Let me know if you'd like me to dig. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 20:24:39 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:24:39 -0400 Subject: Wanted: video board for AlphaStation 200 4/233 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ECC88DB-7C1B-4B4E-B0CB-F4D681901230@gmail.com> On Aug 16, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > The only thing I've been able to find so far are scrappers on eBay who want $$$ for old PCI video boards, which needless to say isn't economically viable for a machine such as this. I think I'd be tempted to throw a random S3 based board in there if it weren't that I really need to be able test on proper hardware. If that's all you want, I have an old S3 Virge PCI card sitting around here somewhere. I don't know how similar that is to the Trio, but my guess is it's not super-close; there are framebuffer drivers for both in the kernel tree, though curiously enough, virgefb seems to be only for Zorro (Amiga) boards. Perhaps it was a popular expansion? Anyway, it works fine as an SVGA board on PCs. If you'd like it, you can have it for shipping from Philadelphia. - Dave From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 16 21:59:17 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:59:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wanted: video board for AlphaStation 200 4/233 In-Reply-To: <0ECC88DB-7C1B-4B4E-B0CB-F4D681901230@gmail.com> References: <0ECC88DB-7C1B-4B4E-B0CB-F4D681901230@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, David Riley wrote: > If that's all you want, I have an old S3 Virge PCI card sitting > around here somewhere. I don't know how similar that is to the > Trio, but my guess is it's not super-close; there are framebuffer > drivers for both in the kernel tree, though curiously enough, > virgefb seems to be only for Zorro (Amiga) boards. Perhaps it > was a popular expansion? > > Anyway, it works fine as an SVGA board on PCs. If you'd like it, > you can have it for shipping from Philadelphia. I appreciate the offer, but the Virge might be a little too new to be supported by Digital Unix. If I can't find an original board, the best chance for compatibility maybe a Trio64 based board. Because the Virge chips were based on parts of the Trio, there is a chance it could work though. I did a second check through my own box of random PCI boards and the only video boards that I found were an old Trident based board (junk, but I kept it around for testing random motherboards) and a couple of old Diamond Stealth 2500 (Aliance chipset). I guess I've managed to use or give away pretty much all the old PCI VGA boards I used to have ;) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Aug 17 01:56:30 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 08:56:30 +0200 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Paco Linux wrote: >> Bad year : >> http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/08/16/hans-camenzind-inventor-of-the-555-dies/ > > I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. > Or did you mean the NE555? > > Christian Is it so hard to just read the article? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Aug 17 04:38:58 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 11:38:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Tek oscilliscopes In-Reply-To: <502D65E5.4010205@brouhaha.com> References: <502D65E5.4010205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Christian Corti wrote: >> I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. > > I like the Tek 465 much better than the 555. And I like the 2245/46/47 even > better. But I don't think there's any model that qualifies as "best scope > ever made", for the same reason that there isn't any "best car ever made": Of course this is a purely subjective opinion. But the 555 is better than all other scopes we have, and I dislike those modern semi- or fully- digital beasts with terrible display. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Aug 17 04:45:17 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 11:45:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Is it so hard to just read the article? If you ask so, then yes. I didn't want to put alpine in the background and start lynx on the VT100 etc. Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 17 04:59:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 05:59:04 -0400 Subject: Tek oscilliscopes In-Reply-To: References: <502D65E5.4010205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <502E15E8.4020605@neurotica.com> On 08/17/2012 05:38 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: >> Christian Corti wrote: >>> I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. >> >> I like the Tek 465 much better than the 555. And I like the >> 2245/46/47 even better. But I don't think there's any model that >> qualifies as "best scope ever made", for the same reason that there >> isn't any "best car ever made": > > Of course this is a purely subjective opinion. But the 555 is better > than all other scopes we have, and I dislike those modern semi- or fully- > digital beasts with terrible display. Sadly I lack a power umbilical for my 555, but I hope to get it running someday. Have you seen the 453? Sharpest CRT I've ever seen on any scope from any manufacturer. NOT the 453A, but the original 453 with the Nuvistor input stage. The (larger) 453A CRT is nowhere near as sharp as that of the 453. That scope is a real pleasure to use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 17 07:34:32 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 05:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 32-bit code in 16 bits In-Reply-To: References: , , <502D0C90.9010203@vaxen.net> <502CAD4A.1869.38FBE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > >> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 16 Aug 2012 at 10:06, Doc wrote: >>> >>>> I have a box of MS C v5.0. IIRC it's on CD, not floppy, and comes >>>> with docs. >>> >>> The last (1.52c/8.00c?) version of 16-bit MSVC is available free for >>> download if you know a MSDN subscriber. >>> >> It's listed as Visual C++ 1.52. >> >> I'd still recommend Open Watcom - it wipes the floor with just about every >> other DOS based C compiler out there. It'll also generate Win16/32 >> binaries and OS/2 if memory serves. > > I was playing around with Open Watcom last night, but couldn't get my head > wrapped around the weird way it expects Makefiles to be written. Turbo C++ > Makefiles are essentially plain old Posix. Why not just grab the GNU make (there has to be a DOS port around somewhere) and use that? Even Borland's make should do the job, just call Watcom instead. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 17 08:45:37 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 06:45:37 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: , , <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de > > > Christian Corti wrote: > > > On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Paco Linux wrote: > >> Bad year : > >> http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/08/16/hans-camenzind-inventor-of-the-555-dies/ > > > > I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. > > Or did you mean the NE555? > > > > Christian > > Is it so hard to just read the article? Hi Atually SE555, not NE555 that was a licenced copy. Dwight From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 17 09:09:13 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:09:13 +0200 Subject: Wanted: video board for AlphaStation 200 4/233 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <502E5089.5060608@e-bbes.com> On 2012-08-16 13:35, Mark Wickens wrote: > I have a PowerStorm 3D3O (ZLXp-E1) which will do 8 plane at 1280x1024. > I've not tried it in my AlphaServer 300 4/266 because I installed a > ZLXp-E2. I would recommend this card if you can find one - I got one > new from the USA for about $40. When was that? You remember by any chance where you got it from? I'm looking for one of the bigger PowerStorms for a while already ... From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Aug 17 09:56:42 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tek oscilliscopes Message-ID: <1345215402.86992.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I want one of the HP color crt scopes I used when they were released circa 1989. I think I'm getting closer to owning one. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 17 11:15:42 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Is it so hard to just read the article? On this machine, Yes. It shouldn't be so hard, with XP and a Winmodem, but it'll be a few days before I can get back to a decent connectin. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 17 11:40:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:40:42 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2012 at 9:15, Fred Cisin wrote: > It shouldn't be so hard, with XP and a Winmodem, but it'll be a few > days before I can get back to a decent connectin. I could download and write the article to a 9-track tape and mail it to you.... --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 11:47:46 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:47:46 -0400 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3B5944C9-6B15-4467-AF36-CE3864BD5835@gmail.com> On Aug 17, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Aug 2012 at 9:15, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> It shouldn't be so hard, with XP and a Winmodem, but it'll be a few >> days before I can get back to a decent connectin. > > I could download and write the article to a 9-track tape and mail it > to you.... I'd really prefer a stack of 80-column cards, please. My tape drive is on the fritz. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 17 11:56:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:56:56 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: , <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, Message-ID: <502E1568.4400.51ACC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2012 at 6:45, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Atually SE555, not NE555 that was a licenced copy. > Dwight Hi Dwight, Are you certain? My Signetics Linear databooks indicate that the SE part was the mil-spec, extended-temperature range version of the commercial grade NE555. (If you look at the 1972 ("advance notice") datasheet, it's funny--the temperature range for the SE555 is given as -55 to +12.5 degrees! Little typo there.) Signetics follwed this convention with their other lines. For example, the TTL family was S5400/N7400. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 12:12:30 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:12:30 -0500 Subject: PPS 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: huh? On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 7:08 AM, Original Woodworks wrote: > Did you ever get your info on this series? I was a Rockwell rep and have > it plus I bought a few Mattel games for my kids too! > > Original Woodworks > 4631 Lake Ave., White Bear Lake, MN 55110 > By appointment only! > (651) 429-2222 > www.originalwoodworks.com > orgwood at iaxs.net > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 12:21:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 13:21:21 -0400 Subject: PPS 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2012, at 1:12 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 7:08 AM, Original Woodworks wrote: > >> Did you ever get your info on this series? I was a Rockwell rep and have >> it plus I bought a few Mattel games for my kids too! > huh? > Someone else (I forget who) was asking for info on the PPS 4/1, which was used (among other things) on the Mattel handheld LCD games of the '80s and early '90s. I'm sure Bitsavers would be a great destination for the documents! - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 12:32:54 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:32:54 -0500 Subject: PPS 4/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: o ok On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 12:21 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 17, 2012, at 1:12 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 7:08 AM, Original Woodworks >wrote: > > > >> Did you ever get your info on this series? I was a Rockwell rep and > have > >> it plus I bought a few Mattel games for my kids too! > > huh? > > > > Someone else (I forget who) was asking for info on the PPS 4/1, which was > used (among other things) on the Mattel handheld LCD games of the '80s > and early '90s. > > I'm sure Bitsavers would be a great destination for the documents! > > > - Dave > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 17 12:40:07 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 10:40:07 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <502E1568.4400.51ACC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, , , <502E1568.4400.51ACC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck I would guess you are correct here. I just recall using a numberof Signetics 555's and they were SE555's I'd always thoughtthe NE555 number was National Semi's number.I do recal the S5400/N7400 numbering, now that you mentionit.The 555's were much better than the 74121/122 chips forlonger pulses. It may not have been an error. Some of these part werefussy about temperature. Maybe the meant C.Anyway the air conditioning bill would put most people offwhen using these ;)Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:56:56 -0700 > Subject: RE: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. > > On 17 Aug 2012 at 6:45, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > > Atually SE555, not NE555 that was a licenced copy. > > Dwight > > Hi Dwight, > > Are you certain? My Signetics Linear databooks indicate that the SE > part was the mil-spec, extended-temperature range version of the > commercial grade NE555. (If you look at the 1972 ("advance notice") > datasheet, it's funny--the temperature range for the SE555 is given > as -55 to +12.5 degrees! Little typo there.) > > Signetics follwed this convention with their other lines. For > example, the TTL family was S5400/N7400. > > --Chuck > > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 17 12:44:07 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 19:44:07 +0200 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: <502D6795.4070303@neurotica.com> References: <502D6795.4070303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120817194407.e3eeeea4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:35:17 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > I finally found mine last night, and took some pics: I dug out my PMAG-C / PX... Sorry for the poor quality. All I have is the camera of my smartphone. http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/PX_1.jpg http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/PX_2.jpg http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/PX_3.jpg http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/PX_4.jpg -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Aug 17 13:30:37 2012 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 14:30:37 -0400 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. Message-ID: <20120817143037.kz33n0ezgaysc8ck@webmail2.centurytel.net> On Aug 17, 2012 at 12:47, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 17, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 17 Aug 2012 at 9:15, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >> It shouldn't be so hard, with XP and a Winmodem, but it'll be a few > >> days before I can get back to a decent connectin. > > > > I could download and write the article to a 9-track tape and mail it > > to you.... > > I'd really prefer a stack of 80-column cards, please. My tape drive > is on the fritz. Could you please provide me a copy on ASR-33 paper tape? :) -Charles From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 17 13:36:05 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:36:05 -0600 Subject: PXG/PXG+/PXG Turbo/PXG Turbo+ boards for DECstation 5000 In-Reply-To: <20120817194407.e3eeeea4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <502D6795.4070303@neurotica.com> <20120817194407.e3eeeea4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 14:25:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 20:25:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <502D57D4.2080105@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 16, 12 10:28:04 pm Message-ID: > I completely agree. Seeing and hearing a Spitfire flying around above > you adds a whole new dimension to seeing a stationary Spitfire in a > museum. Recently I went with two of my sons to see the exhibition "Three > tons of minicomputers - 40 years with computers in the service of > Uppsala University". Both of them are very good programmers and > interested in computing, and they found the exhibition very interesting. > However, if the exhibits had been running, and they could have heard a > line printer or an ASR-33 printing, seen and heard a disk pack seeking, > seen the blinkenlights etc, it would have given them a much better idea > of what computing was like 40 years ago. That wasn't possible as the > exhibition was only a temporary one, but had it been permanent, I I don't get that. Assuming the ART33 was maintained in running condtion, that the lubrication points had bee attended to, etc, it doesn't take much to set it up in a temporaray location and run it at least in local mode. Ditto for most minicomputers. I've taken such things to talks that I've given and have powered them up and run them during said talk. And you don't get much more 'temporary; than that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 14:36:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 20:36:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tek oscilliscopes (was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies.) In-Reply-To: <502D65E5.4010205@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 16, 12 02:28:05 pm Message-ID: > > Christian Corti wrote: > > I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. > > I like the Tek 465 much better than the 555. And I like the 2245/46/47 WHy? I like the plug-in Y amplifiers o nthe 500 series, since you could get special-purpose ones, like samplers, curve tracers, etc. Teh 555 is probably the most versatile of the 500 seires, although the 547 and 556 had more bandwidth. > even better. But I don't think there's any model that qualifies as > "best scope ever made", for the same reason that there isn't any "best > car ever made": the category is too broad, and different models are > better for meeting different requirements. I would absoultely agree. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 17 14:39:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 20:39:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> from "Oliver Lehmann" at Aug 17, 12 08:56:30 am Message-ID: > >> Bad year : > >> http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/08/16/hans-camenzind-inventor-of-the-555-dies/ > > > > I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. > > Or did you mean the NE555? > > > > Christian > > Is it so hard to just read the article? Yes, when you're using a machine with a text-only display, the only browser you have is an ancient version of lynx, and you are o n slow dial-up line. Is it too hard to give a description rather than just a URL? -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 15:30:56 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 21:30:56 +0100 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817143037.kz33n0ezgaysc8ck@webmail2.centurytel.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles > Sent: 17 August 2012 19:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. > > > On Aug 17, 2012 at 12:47, David Riley wrote: > > > On Aug 17, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > > On 17 Aug 2012 at 9:15, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > > >> It shouldn't be so hard, with XP and a Winmodem, but > it'll be a few > > >> days before I can get back to a decent connectin. > > > > > > I could download and write the article to a 9-track tape > and mail it > > > to you.... > > > > I'd really prefer a stack of 80-column cards, please. My > tape drive > > is on the fritz. > > Could you please provide me a copy on ASR-33 paper tape? > :) > That's a tad modern isn't it? 5-Hole for a Creed 444 or Teletype M32... > -Charles > > Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 17 17:09:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> > > It shouldn't be so hard, with XP and a Winmodem, but it'll be a few > > days before I can get back to a decent connectin. > I could download and write the article to a 9-track tape and mail it > to you.... I'm about to replace the Winmodem (Hayes!) with a MultiTech MT5634ZBA-USB, which I think/hope is a REAL modem, and hopefully will stop the half dozen to dozen times per hour that the machine crashes. If THAT doesn't work, 80-column cards would be nice. Oh, well. New semester (2.00 to go!) starts Monday. Dozens of HPaq crap that I can use. If my mother's surgery goes well, I might even get a chance to move back into my house! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 17 18:00:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:00:50 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> References: , <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2012 at 15:09, Fred Cisin wrote: > I'm about to replace the Winmodem (Hayes!) with a MultiTech > MT5634ZBA-USB, which I think/hope is a REAL modem, and hopefully will > stop the half dozen to dozen times per hour that the machine crashes. > > If THAT doesn't work, 80-column cards would be nice. If you need one, I can send you a USR Courier V.Everything. You do need a real serial port for it though. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 17 18:25:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm about to replace the Winmodem (Hayes!) with a MultiTech > > MT5634ZBA-USB, which I think/hope is a REAL modem, and hopefully will > > stop the half dozen to dozen times per hour that the machine crashes. On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you need one, I can send you a USR Courier V.Everything. You do > need a real serial port for it though. I think that the MultiTech may do the job! The Hayes USB modem was a major disappointment. Somewhere, I have a couple of Coutriers, but I need to look for them. This POS doesn't have a REAL serial port. Q: do USB to serial adapters work? well enough for modems? and I have a NIB USR USB modem, but it looks like a Sportster, so that probably won't do the job. If the MultiTech doesn't solve the problems, I should probably buy, borrow, or rent one of your Couriers. I always liked them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spedraja at ono.com Fri Aug 17 19:04:17 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 02:04:17 +0200 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter Message-ID: Hi. One friend told me yesterday that he has one Selectric in working state available for me. Can this machine be converted in one Terminal Typewriter ? Thanks. Regads Serhio From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 17 19:49:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 17:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120817172509.H77915@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, SPC wrote: > Hi. One friend told me yesterday that he has one Selectric in working > state available for me. Can this machine be converted in one Terminal > Typewriter ? Thanks. An "I/O" Selectric is reasonable, but a bit of work. An office Selectric or a home selectric can be done, but is not worth the effort. You can do it with a box of solenoids sitting under the keyboard (vintage Escon), or a box of solenoids sitting 0on top of the keyboard (Dynatyper or kgs-80) From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 17 20:44:42 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 20:44:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: USB adapters and modems (was: Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies.) In-Reply-To: <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> References: , <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> I'm about to replace the Winmodem (Hayes!) with a MultiTech >>> MT5634ZBA-USB, which I think/hope is a REAL modem, and hopefully will >>> stop the half dozen to dozen times per hour that the machine crashes. >> >> If you need one, I can send you a USR Courier V.Everything. You do >> need a real serial port for it though. > > I think that the MultiTech may do the job! > > The Hayes USB modem was a major disappointment. > > Somewhere, I have a couple of Coutriers, but I need to look for them. > This POS doesn't have a REAL serial port. > Q: do USB to serial adapters work? well enough for modems? > > and I have a NIB USR USB modem, but it looks like a Sportster, so that > probably won't do the job. > > If the MultiTech doesn't solve the problems, I should probably buy, > borrow, or rent one of your Couriers. I always liked them. I've had extremely good results with some of the USB 'adapters' (true serial ports with a USB interface, basically) that use the FTDI FT232B chip. They even have board designs and the driver source code available if you want to build it yourself. http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/ICs/FT232B.htm I have have replace some Sipex SP213EHCA RS232 transceiver chips in several of these devices with Maxim MAX213EAI parts. The Sipex transceivers are supposedly rated for +-15KV ESD, but my experience with them seems to indicate that they really aren't worth squat. On the other hand, the pin and function compatible replacement parts from Maxim are still working flawlessly. To me at least, the Sipex part looks to be a cheap knock-off of the Maxim part. As far as modems go, MultiTech and the USR Courier are two of the best. I'm not sure which MultiTech models support which DTE data rates, but with the Courier modems, if you have a 25MHz model, you can drive them at 230400 baud DTE, which came in handy if you are using V.90 and hardware data compression. I used them with Digi serial hardware to get those speeds. Before I had broadband, I used two of those modems paralleled up. Some of the late model USR Sportster modems can also be flash upgraded, but unlike with the free updates for the Courier modems, USR thought they could turn the less expensive Sportsters into a cash cow and didn't make the upgrades freely available (inkjet printer syndrome), with the sole exception of the modems sold with the X2 firmware already in them. That said, if you knew what you were doing, you could flash upgrade the late model 33.6 modems that had flash memory chips in them with the very same V.90 firmware that the X2 modems could use. It has been a very very long time since I did any tinkering with Courier and Sportster modems, but just last week I ran across my files for these, including the firmware updates and the 'unofficial' update utilities for the Sportster modems. As a side note with the USR Courier modems...when the electrolytic capacitors used in the power supply section of these modems begin to age (they get hot in normal use since the modems don't have forced air cooling), the modems will begin to emit digital "noise" (hissing/buzzing) via the internal speaker. There are no form-fit replacements for those capacitors, but I did find some which can be turned sideways that fit and work perfectly. The replacements probably have a longer life, too, since they aren't size-reduced and limited in height. If someone needs this information, I can dig through my notes for the part numbers. From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Aug 17 21:01:09 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:01:09 -0400 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <20120817172509.H77915@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120817172509.H77915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <60923E11-6481-4A2C-91FA-FCCFDAF18AA0@me.com> I'd keep it as a typewriter. They're great machines. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-17, at 8:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, SPC wrote: >> Hi. One friend told me yesterday that he has one Selectric in working >> state available for me. Can this machine be converted in one Terminal >> Typewriter ? Thanks. > > An "I/O" Selectric is reasonable, but a bit of work. > > An office Selectric or a home selectric can be done, but is not worth the > effort. You can do it with a box of solenoids sitting under the keyboard > (vintage Escon), or a box of solenoids sitting 0on top of the keyboard > (Dynatyper or kgs-80) From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 17 21:13:18 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 21:13:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <20120817172509.H77915@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120817172509.H77915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, SPC wrote: >> Hi. One friend told me yesterday that he has one Selectric in working >> state available for me. Can this machine be converted in one Terminal >> Typewriter ? Thanks. > > An "I/O" Selectric is reasonable, but a bit of work. > > An office Selectric or a home selectric can be done, but is not worth the > effort. You can do it with a box of solenoids sitting under the keyboard > (vintage Escon), or a box of solenoids sitting 0on top of the keyboard > (Dynatyper or kgs-80) You can convert a terminal for use as a printer without too much in the way of modifications. I have one (with the special I/O box) that came along with a TRS-80 model 1 from the original owner. I've never had the Selectric itself up and running though because it is a mess and needs to be fully cleaned and serviced. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 21:37:26 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:37:26 -0400 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <639B5D99-F392-4D83-BC00-6CC836B93BEB@gmail.com> On Aug 17, 2012, at 20:04, SPC wrote: > Hi. One friend told me yesterday that he has one Selectric in working > state available for me. Can this machine be converted in one Terminal > Typewriter ? Thanks. The Selectric (at least the original and II) were fully mechanical, to the best of my recollection. That makes the conversion very difficult, both from the conversion of keystrokes into serial and the output of characters to the typed page. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 17 22:09:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 20:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB adapters and modems (was: Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies.) In-Reply-To: References: , <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120817195406.G80996@shell.lmi.net> > > The Hayes USB modem was a major disappointment. Who wants a Hayes USB V.92 modem, series 0375 ? Speak now; I'm ready to recalibrate it with a large axe. On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > I've had extremely good results with some of the USB 'adapters' (true > serial ports with a USB interface, basically) that use the FTDI FT232B > chip. They even have board designs and the driver source code available if > you want to build it yourself. > http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/ICs/FT232B.htm Thanks! When I clear some life out of the fans, I'll look into it. If my mother's surgery goes well, I might even be able to move back into my house soon. > As far as modems go, MultiTech and the USR Courier are two of the best. I've always liked Couriers. A friend contacted them about a Courier that he bought for $20 at a swap. They sent him a replacement one for free! And the MultiTech seems to be OK! > but unlike with the free updates for the Courier modems, USR thought they > could turn the less expensive Sportsters into a cash cow and didn't make > the upgrades freely available (inkjet printer syndrome), It's hard to believe that Sportster and Courier are the same company! > It has been a very very long time since I did any tinkering with Courier > and Sportster modems, but just last week I ran across my files for these, > including the firmware updates and the 'unofficial' update utilities for > the Sportster modems. I'll dig out the USR USB modem, and see what it is. I recall it looking like a Sportster. > they aren't size-reduced and limited in height. If someone needs this > information, I can dig through my notes for the part numbers. When convenient. I should probably file a copy for when I locate my Couriers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mbouhoum at hotmail.com Fri Aug 17 00:59:43 2012 From: mbouhoum at hotmail.com (Mohammed BOUHOUM) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 01:59:43 -0400 Subject: IBM 5151 Message-ID: Hi Ismail; I'm interesed by a monitor for vintage IBM 5150, do you still have 1 unit of ibm 5151 ? Thanks Mohammed From axelsson at acc.umu.se Fri Aug 17 03:49:05 2012 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 10:49:05 +0200 Subject: ND-NOTIS terminals (was X Window server for NEC 7220) In-Reply-To: <20120815081051.wj58cigncwwks0k8@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: from "Richard" at Aug 11, 12 09:36:30 am <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> <001201cd7895$092eba90$1b8c2fb0$@YAHOO.COM> <1344821473.77632.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502ACB47.1060906@acc.umu.se> <20120815081051.wj58cigncwwks0k8@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <502E0581.8070609@acc.umu.se> emu at e-bbes.com skrev 2012-08-15 08:10: > Quoting G?ran Axelsson : > >> I haven't found any way to enable graphics mode on the terminals but I >> haven't made a decent trial yet. The screen seems to be monochrome >> only, no grey scale, so there seems to be plenty of memory for the >> graphics. > > Did you try sending them some binary files? > or just something from /dev/rand ? I've only used it to connect to a ND-100 computer. So I haven't even tried to send random binary data. My friend that gave the terminals to me tried to remember the escape sequence they used, but he thought it was only a few terminals that had the software that enabled the graphics. So far I have only found one version of the software in the roms. (Only checking the checksum on the labels). When time permits I will do some more testing... and possibly disassembling the roms. Feels like a winter project. :-) /G?ran From tingox at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 13:59:57 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 20:59:57 +0200 Subject: ND-NOTIS terminals (was X Window server for NEC 7220) In-Reply-To: <502E0581.8070609@acc.umu.se> References: <1344729811.46368.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502751AA.2000003@e-bbes.com> <50275F78.4070108@brouhaha.com> <5027A5E4.1020203@verizon.net> <001201cd7895$092eba90$1b8c2fb0$@YAHOO.COM> <1344821473.77632.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502ACB47.1060906@acc.umu.se> <20120815081051.wj58cigncwwks0k8@webmail.opentransfer.com> <502E0581.8070609@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:49 AM, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > I've only used it to connect to a ND-100 computer. So I haven't even tried > to send random binary data. > My friend that gave the terminals to me tried to remember the escape > sequence they used, but he thought it was only a few terminals that had the > software that enabled the graphics. So far I have only found one version of > the software in the roms. (Only checking the checksum on the labels). > > When time permits I will do some more testing... and possibly disassembling > the roms. Feels like a winter project. :-) Too bad that there doesn' seem to be any information about Nokia terminals online (at least I have yet to find anything). I guess there wasn't any documentation on the terminals themselves? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sat Aug 18 01:03:11 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 06:03:11 +0000 Subject: IBM disk Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E7221C7A38@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Anyone have about 3 or 4 or so IBM 00K4151, FRU 10L6081 9.1GB disk drives in PC Server hot swap trays (76H7287)'s (preferably with non-broken locking levers) that they'd like to part with for ~$5-$10 each? I need a few more to get my P/390 fully stocked... :) Thanks in advance! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 18 02:01:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 00:01:41 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> References: , <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <502EDB65.12538.3570EA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2012 at 16:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > Somewhere, I have a couple of Coutriers, but I need to look for them. > This POS doesn't have a REAL serial port. Q: do USB to serial adapters > work? well enough for modems? It might--I use one as a convenient connection to debugging projects that use RS232 for output. I don't know how well they work with hardware (RTS/CTS) handshaking, however. I got rid of the Sportsters that I had--worthless pieces of garbage. One common problem was overheating. I still have the original HST Dual Standard that I started with--it works fine. I've got a Courier V.34 that's been upgraded as well as the V.Everything. I also have a Zoom 56K and a Hayes Optima "business modem" that I think tops out at 33.6K (Hayes promised upgrades to 56K, but realized that they couldn't do it without swapping the entire modem. They were in Chapter 11 at the time and simply weaseled out of the promise). It was right around then that consumer-level modems started to get really trashy. I have no idea why I'm hanging on to these things. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Aug 18 07:57:49 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 08:57:49 -0400 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <502EDB65.12538.3570EA7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> <502EDB65.12538.3570EA7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2012, at 3:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Aug 2012 at 16:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Somewhere, I have a couple of Coutriers, but I need to look for them. >> This POS doesn't have a REAL serial port. Q: do USB to serial adapters >> work? well enough for modems? > > It might--I use one as a convenient connection to debugging projects > that use RS232 for output. I don't know how well they work with > hardware (RTS/CTS) handshaking, however. Pretty well, actually. They function about as well as a 16550 does for most purposes, at least as long as you go with a good one. The FTDI chips (FT232 and descendants, such as FT2232, FT4232) are quite good. Other chips (particularly Prolific ones) are not so great; I have a Prolific adaptor that I can really only use when I need human readable text, because it has an annoying habit of emitting garbage characters when I attach to the device. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 18 10:45:22 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 08:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> It shouldn't be so hard, with XP and a Winmodem, but it'll be a few >>> days before I can get back to a decent connectin. >> I could download and write the article to a 9-track tape and mail it >> to you.... > > I'm about to replace the Winmodem (Hayes!) with a MultiTech MT5634ZBA-USB, > which I think/hope is a REAL modem, and hopefully will stop the half dozen > to dozen times per hour that the machine crashes. > Fred, have you thought of finding a USR 56k External? eBay has some Couriers for not a whole lot (but there are some that are just insanely priced!) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 18 10:46:19 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 08:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Aug 2012 at 15:09, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I'm about to replace the Winmodem (Hayes!) with a MultiTech >> MT5634ZBA-USB, which I think/hope is a REAL modem, and hopefully will >> stop the half dozen to dozen times per hour that the machine crashes. >> >> If THAT doesn't work, 80-column cards would be nice. > > If you need one, I can send you a USR Courier V.Everything. You do > need a real serial port for it though. > Hehe. Good idea. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 18 10:52:59 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 08:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> References: , <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <502E6AB2.30434.19ED256@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817162037.K76666@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > Q: do USB to serial adapters work? well enough for modems? > Yes. Find one that uses the FTDI 232 chip. They're very good. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 18 12:04:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 10:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > Fred, have you thought of finding a USR 56k External? eBay has some > Couriers for not a whole lot (but there are some that are just insanely > priced!) 1) This is a [hopefully] temporary situation 2) It needs to be USB, unless I also replace this POS (Eee) netbook pile of crap 3) When I checked a few days ago, there were NO USB Couriers on eBay. (I've heard that they exist, but I've not seen one) 4) If I use a USB to RS232 adapter, HOW can I tell which ones are good? eBay listings usually do NOTR mention which internal chipset. How do I find an FTDI chipset, V the one that spews garbage characters? 5) Back to: I'm not sure that I can deal with it if this is NOT a short-term temporary situation. Nevertheless, THANK YOU! All y'all (2nd person plural) have been great. I hadn't expected my gripes to produce real, solid suggestions and help. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Aug 18 12:31:06 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 10:31:06 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I've been using Keyspan (OK, now they're Tripplite) USA-19HS USB-to-RS232 converters for a while. Haven't had any problems with them. They run ~$25 new from Amazon. They're also supported on all the usual OS's (Windows, Linux, OS X). There's also a Gearmo USB-to-RS232 (920K) that explicitly calls out having an FTDI chip. I haven't used that one. TTFN - Guy On Aug 18, 2012, at 10:04 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >> Fred, have you thought of finding a USR 56k External? eBay has some >> Couriers for not a whole lot (but there are some that are just insanely >> priced!) > > 1) This is a [hopefully] temporary situation > > 2) It needs to be USB, unless I also replace this POS (Eee) netbook pile > of crap > > 3) When I checked a few days ago, there were NO USB Couriers on eBay. > (I've heard that they exist, but I've not seen one) > > 4) If I use a USB to RS232 adapter, HOW can I tell which ones are good? > eBay listings usually do NOTR mention which internal chipset. How do I > find an FTDI chipset, V the one that spews garbage characters? > > 5) Back to: I'm not sure that I can deal with it if this is NOT a > short-term temporary situation. > > > > Nevertheless, THANK YOU! > > All y'all (2nd person plural) have been great. I hadn't expected my > gripes to produce real, solid suggestions and help. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 18 13:29:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 14:29:29 -0400 Subject: Tek oscilliscopes In-Reply-To: <1345215402.86992.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1345215402.86992.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502FDF09.3@neurotica.com> On 08/17/2012 10:56 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I want one of the HP color crt scopes I used when they were released circa 1989. I think I'm getting closer to owning one. What model? 54K series maybe? I have a 54111D, GaAs front-end, incredible device even today. I don't think it's quite that old, but I think the family is. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 18 13:43:55 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 13:43:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > >> Fred, have you thought of finding a USR 56k External? eBay has some >> Couriers for not a whole lot (but there are some that are just insanely >> priced!) > > 1) This is a [hopefully] temporary situation > > 2) It needs to be USB, unless I also replace this POS (Eee) netbook pile > of crap > > 3) When I checked a few days ago, there were NO USB Couriers on eBay. > (I've heard that they exist, but I've not seen one) > > 4) If I use a USB to RS232 adapter, HOW can I tell which ones are good? > eBay listings usually do NOTR mention which internal chipset. How do I > find an FTDI chipset, V the one that spews garbage characters? > > 5) Back to: I'm not sure that I can deal with it if this is NOT a > short-term temporary situation. I've been using an older version of the USBGEAR USBG-232 (B version of the FTDI chip but it looks like they use the R version now). http://www.usbgear.com/USBG-232.html The Sabrent SBT-FTDI and CB-FTDI adapters also appear to use the FTDI chip, but I've not used those. From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Aug 18 16:11:54 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 23:11:54 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284B12.6040500@neurotica.com> <50285f03.4ae7440a.3e64.5df3@mx.google.com> <201208130256.WAA25357@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120818211154.GB32072@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:56:04PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > >> We certainly don't need SATA, but we have it anyway. > > Seriously, what's there to dislike about it? > > If there were no installed base, very little (possibly nothing - I > don't know either interface well enough to be sure). But anything that > means trying to buy new parts is met with "that's been discontinued, > you'll have to buy new everything else too" is something to dislike. There are interface adapters. The Sun V100 right next to me is currently running 2x 1 TB SATA disks attached to its internal PATA ports by way of SATA-PATA adapters. Works pretty well. Not fast, mind you, but that I blame mostly on the crappy AcerLabs PATA chip on the mainboard. It wasn't fast with PATA disk either. > If disks were just as available in IDE as SATA (just try to buy a >1T > IDE drive) Interface adapters and buy SATA disks. Not fast, but at least it should work and a PATA interface is slower than SATA anyway. > and if host support for SATA were coeval with, instead of > replacing, IDE? Then you might have a point. That's not what I'm > seeing, though. > > That's why I wrote of SATA being imposed on buyers, rather than being > offered to buyers. Honestly, I'm happy for the death of PATA. There is a reason I ran all my systems with SCSI and used PATA only for non-critical stuff. These days, $HOME is on SCSI and bulk storage on SATA (RAID1/RAID5). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Aug 18 16:17:12 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:17:12 -0400 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50300658.1070308@verizon.net> On 08/18/2012 01:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >> Fred, have you thought of finding a USR 56k External? eBay has some >> Couriers for not a whole lot (but there are some that are just insanely >> priced!) > 1) This is a [hopefully] temporary situation > > 2) It needs to be USB, unless I also replace this POS (Eee) netbook pile > of crap Mine is my universal if something USB doesn't work, it does with that machine.. An EeePC 701 still running Xandros. EeePC running windows is the exact opposite [its junk os]. 3) When I checked a few days ago, there were NO USB Couriers on eBay. (I've heard that they exist, but I've not seen one) Never seen one. 4) If I use a USB to RS232 adapter, HOW can I tell which ones are good? eBay listings usually do NOTR mention which internal chipset. How do I find an FTDI chipset, V the one that spews garbage characters? How about buying the genuine FTDI cable? that's what I use for RS232 and USB to 3.3V. All the others I tried sucked. Watch that some cables generate positive voltages only and real RS232 has to swing at least 3V negative or the level transition is not [or barely] seen and you get garbage chars. For devices that need a good cable run I use the 3.3V FTDI serial cable and a MAX232 to get real RS232 with CTS and DTR. The BEST USB modem I've used is the Apple. Expensive but it works. Never use Ebay. I Kept my microterm 33K and USR sportster and a PC with a real serial port. Though both work fine with the CP.M crates, VAX, and PDP11. Allison From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Aug 18 16:52:37 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 23:52:37 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in IBM 7090 In-Reply-To: <201208130157.VAA24903@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3BDC8B6E7516414B822B744696A0A9E4@G4UGMT41> <50283D46.9060104@neurotica.com> <201208130013.UAA23848@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50284892.8090405@neurotica.com> <50284E00.9080206@bitsavers.org> <201208130157.VAA24903@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120818215236.GC32072@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 09:57:52PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > They actually did something intelligent and made the interconnect > > common between SAS and SATA. > > I'm not sure I'd call that intelligent. > > If the compatability goes far enough that either kind of device works > with either kind of interface, then I agree, but then there's really no > difference between them - they're just two names for the same thing. > > If the compatability doesn't go that far, then we now have a way you > can plug something in that looks perfectly compatible but which does > not actually work when connected. I have trouble seeing how this is > good for anyone, this time including hardware makers. The Dell server I've seen lately all have SAS backplanes but for a test setup I swapped the SAS disks in some for SATA disks. Works perfectly fine, it is just slower (the SAS disks are 15k6 RPM, the SATA ones 7k2 RPM). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Aug 18 17:00:11 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 15:00:11 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50300658.1070308@verizon.net> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <50300658.1070308@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5030106B.3040605@gorge.net> allison wrote: > On 08/18/2012 01:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >>> Fred, have you thought of finding a USR 56k External? eBay has some >>> Couriers for not a whole lot (but there are some that are just insanely >>> priced!) >> 1) This is a [hopefully] temporary situation >> >> 2) It needs to be USB, unless I also replace this POS (Eee) netbook >> pile >> of crap > I'm using a trendnet TU-S9 adapter I picked up at Iguana Micro across from Intel's campus in Hillsboro Or. The few thousand nerds across the street are pretty good at vetting products. Iguana said it was one that worked well. I use it with a vintage EP-1 prom programmer and a ICOM PCR-1000 comm radio. Both target devices are pretty picky about the signals presented. YMMV. - Jim From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Aug 18 17:43:41 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:43:41 -0400 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2012, at 13:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > > 4) If I use a USB to RS232 adapter, HOW can I tell which ones are good? > eBay listings usually do NOTR mention which internal chipset. How do I > find an FTDI chipset, V the one that spews garbage characters? (apologies for long lines, on my phone) Don't use eBay to buy USB<->UART adaptors. If you want to make sure you get one with an FTDI chip, Google for one. There are lots of dual and quad adaptors out there as well, because (with some oversimplification) the FT2232 and 4232 are dual and quad UART versions of the FT232. You may pay a bit of a price premium, but you'll probably only need to buy one. For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or 2232 or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of real RS232 for the simple reason that our clients have a hard time finding PCs with serial ports and are too clueless to buy proper serial adaptors. Plus, a mini-USB port takes up a lot less room on the panel than one DE9 (let alone four), and the chips generally cost about the same as a decent RS232 level converter. - Dave From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Aug 18 18:23:33 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:23:33 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <5030106B.3040605@gorge.net> References: , , <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <50300658.1070308@verizon.net> <5030106B.3040605@gorge.net> Message-ID: <503023F5.7010001@gorge.net> jimpdavis wrote: > I'm using a trendnet TU-S9 adapter I picked up at Iguana Micro across > from Intel's campus in Hillsboro Or. > The few thousand nerds across the street are pretty good at vetting > products. > Iguana said it was one that worked well. I use it with a vintage EP-1 > prom programmer and a ICOM PCR-1000 comm radio. > Both target devices are pretty picky about the signals presented. YMMV. > > - Jim > > I did a little footwork on these things. The trendnet is not highly recommended. I have been happy, but I would follow the others recommendations I don't know if these guys have a dog in this fight, but... *The details: * 1. Preferred processor chip: FTDI or Silabs. This is the utmost most important step. The reason why we highly recommend a USB to serial adapter with a processor chip from either FTDI or Silabs is because these are simply the best. We have extensive experience with these which shows us that these processor chips works with the majority of devices and equipment on the market. The drivers are very stable, easy to install and compatible with all versions of Windows 32/4-bit, Mac, Linux. 2. Preferred serial driver chip: ZyWyn, Maxin or NI. The serial driver chip is what is actually communicating and providing the power signals for your device connected to the USB to serial adapter. We recommend a brand name driver chip from ZyWyn, Maxin or NI because these are very reliable and works well with the FTDI and Silabs processor chips. 3. At least 5VDC output power at serial connector. We recommend a USB to serial adapter with at least 5VDC power output for the TX/RX signals. This will ensure a strong communication signal and that your device gets sufficient power. The output power is measured from signal ground to the Tx signal and the Rx signal. 4. Build-in static protection to at least 600W. Built-in static protection protects the USB to serial adapter against high voltage spikes created either by static electricity or by surges in the supply voltage. This problem can exist both at the USB end and the serial RS232 end. 5. LED lights for TX and RX activity. Not required but very nice to have. Being able to actually see when data is transmitted through the adapter is a big advantage when troubleshooting. This way its easier to find out where the problem lies; if its your computer, your device connected to the adapter or the adapter itself. *Things to avoid:* * Avoid adapters with a low-cost processor chip such as Prolific. The drivers are poorly written, incompatible with newer operating systems and creates unreliable communication. * Avoid adapters with a low output power (less than 5VDC). Low output power makes the communication unreliable or even impossible. *Further reading:* Here is an overview of all our USB to Serial RS232 adapters . Further reading: Why most USB to Serial adapters does not work with Windows 7 Small form factor adapter: Mini USB to serial adapter Cheers, -jim. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 18 18:25:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:25:02 -0700 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: , <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <502FC1DE.29802.1DB5A4E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Aug 2012 at 18:43, David Riley wrote: > Don't use eBay to buy USB<->UART adaptors. If you want to make sure > you get one with an FTDI chip, Google for one. There are lots of dual > and quad adaptors out there as well, because (with some > oversimplification) the FT2232 and 4232 are dual and quad UART > versions of the FT232. You may pay a bit of a price premium, but > you'll probably only need to buy one. Now that depends. For example, item 120966152129 is a Sabrent FTDI adapter offered directly from Egghead for $12.99+$1.99 shipping. Not a bad deal, since Egghead's sale price through their web store is $19. (It gets 5-star ratings). Not everything on eBay is from Chinese sellers offering junk. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 18 19:15:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:15:45 -0400 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <502FC1DE.29802.1DB5A4E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net>, <502FC1DE.29802.1DB5A4E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50303031.9030206@neurotica.com> On 08/18/2012 07:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Don't use eBay to buy USB<->UART adaptors. If you want to make sure >> you get one with an FTDI chip, Google for one. There are lots of dual >> and quad adaptors out there as well, because (with some >> oversimplification) the FT2232 and 4232 are dual and quad UART >> versions of the FT232. You may pay a bit of a price premium, but >> you'll probably only need to buy one. > > Now that depends. For example, item 120966152129 is a Sabrent FTDI > adapter offered directly from Egghead for $12.99+$1.99 shipping. Not > a bad deal, since Egghead's sale price through their web store is > $19. (It gets 5-star ratings). > > Not everything on eBay is from Chinese sellers offering junk. ...and, in their defense (and I'm as annoyed about the whole China issue as anyone else), not everything from the Chinese is junk. I received a shipment of RF adapters (SMA-N) from there today. I'm generally pretty anal and elitist about test equipment, right on down to (and especially) cables and adapters, but I thought I'd take a chance and just see how bad they are. I swept them on an RF network analyzer and they're actually quite good. Also today, one of my bench power supplies, the one proudly proclaiming "MADE IN USA!!! YEE-HAW!!" (well, it doesn't actually say "yee haw") went up in smoke, while operating well within its specifications. Not everything made in China is automatically bad, and not everything made in the USA is automatically good! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 18 19:18:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:18:09 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> On 08/18/2012 06:43 PM, David Riley wrote: > For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or 2232 > or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of real > RS232 for the simple reason that our clients have a hard time finding > PCs with serial ports and are too clueless to buy proper serial > adaptors. Plus, a mini-USB port takes up a lot less room on the panel > than one DE9 (let alone four), and the chips generally cost about the > same as a decent RS232 level converter. Yeah, y'know, I'm doing a bit of that myself lately. I feel awfully silly putting an FT232 on a board connecting it to a pair of UART pins on a microcontroller that already HAS a damn USB controller, but the FTDI drivers are available for lots of platforms, and they work well, and the USB VID/PID situation sucks. Do you have any thoughts here? Just how "unclean" is it to waste the on-chip USB controller just because of the suitly crap surrounding the Vendor IDs and stuff? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 18 22:29:48 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 23:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or >> 2232 or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of >> real RS232 [...] > Yeah, y'know, I'm doing a bit of that myself lately. [...] > Just how "unclean" is it to waste the on-chip USB controller just > because of the suitly crap surrounding the Vendor IDs and stuff? As a potential device user, I would prefer to have a serial port (on a tiny connector if physical space is an issue - provided either you provide a dongle to something at least pseudo-standard or I can solder to the pads and run wires out to whatever connector I want). If you _must_ go USB, I would _much_ rather have a USB device that looks like a serial port, with known, reliable, stable software on the host, than something which requires either running a vendor binary blob (which usually won't run on what I want to talk to it with even if I were willing to run it) or doing a bunch of driver hacking. "Unclean" can go hang - especially if the alternative would mean increasing the device cost to make up for having to buy a vendor ID. If you really want your device to be useful to users (as opposed to being useful to software license-to-use sales or some such), the only excuse I can see for not looking like a stock serial port is if your device wants to do something that is difficult or impossible within the serial-port abstraction - or if there's already a standard abstraction available for your device. (A video camera might be an example of both of those simultaneously.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 18 22:37:51 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 00:37:51 -0300 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Can't you clone the VID/PID pair and make it answer just like a FT232 chip does? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:18 PM Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. > On 08/18/2012 06:43 PM, David Riley wrote: >> For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or 2232 >> or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of real >> RS232 for the simple reason that our clients have a hard time finding >> PCs with serial ports and are too clueless to buy proper serial >> adaptors. Plus, a mini-USB port takes up a lot less room on the panel >> than one DE9 (let alone four), and the chips generally cost about the >> same as a decent RS232 level converter. > > Yeah, y'know, I'm doing a bit of that myself lately. I feel awfully > silly putting an FT232 on a board connecting it to a pair of UART pins > on a microcontroller that already HAS a damn USB controller, but the > FTDI drivers are available for lots of platforms, and they work well, > and the USB VID/PID situation sucks. Do you have any thoughts here? > Just how "unclean" is it to waste the on-chip USB controller just > because of the suitly crap surrounding the Vendor IDs and stuff? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Sat Aug 18 23:17:52 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 00:17:52 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5E92DBCB-4A96-499B-92A6-B135068FABF2@me.com> If you do that, why not just save yourself the trouble of writing the code in the first place? Sent from my iPhone On 2012-08-18, at 11:37 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Can't you clone the VID/PID pair and make it answer just like a FT232 chip does? > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:18 PM > Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. > > >> On 08/18/2012 06:43 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or 2232 >>> or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of real >>> RS232 for the simple reason that our clients have a hard time finding >>> PCs with serial ports and are too clueless to buy proper serial >>> adaptors. Plus, a mini-USB port takes up a lot less room on the panel >>> than one DE9 (let alone four), and the chips generally cost about the >>> same as a decent RS232 level converter. >> >> Yeah, y'know, I'm doing a bit of that myself lately. I feel awfully >> silly putting an FT232 on a board connecting it to a pair of UART pins >> on a microcontroller that already HAS a damn USB controller, but the >> FTDI drivers are available for lots of platforms, and they work well, >> and the USB VID/PID situation sucks. Do you have any thoughts here? >> Just how "unclean" is it to waste the on-chip USB controller just >> because of the suitly crap surrounding the Vendor IDs and stuff? >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 18 23:35:15 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 00:35:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <5E92DBCB-4A96-499B-92A6-B135068FABF2@me.com> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <5E92DBCB-4A96-499B-92A6-B135068FABF2@me.com> Message-ID: <201208190435.AAA12299@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> [top-posting and no-trimming damage repaired manually -Mouse] >>> I feel awfully silly putting an FT232 on a board connecting it to a >>> pair of UART pins on a microcontroller that already HAS a damn USB >>> controller, [...] VID/PID [...] >> Can't you clone the VID/PID pair and make it answer just like a >> FT232 chip does? Probably, but that would likely get someone upset at you if the result were to achieve wide distribution. > If you do that, why not just save yourself the trouble of writing the > code in the first place? Sometimes hardware costs - either primary (eg the chip) or secondary (eg board space, power draw) outweigh software costs. >> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Sent from my iPhone Would it be too much to ask that you not drop ads for your devices in your email? I already get far too many ads as it is, and don't need more - especially shoehorned into otherwise interesting discussions. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 18 23:36:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 00:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50303031.9030206@neurotica.com> References: , <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net>, <502FC1DE.29802.1DB5A4E@cclist.sydex.com> <50303031.9030206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208190436.AAA12319@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Not everything made in China is automatically bad, and not everything > made in the USA is automatically good! Nor is the race always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 19 00:16:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 01:16:38 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> On 08/18/2012 11:29 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or >>> 2232 or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of >>> real RS232 [...] > >> Yeah, y'know, I'm doing a bit of that myself lately. [...] > >> Just how "unclean" is it to waste the on-chip USB controller just >> because of the suitly crap surrounding the Vendor IDs and stuff? > > As a potential device user, I would prefer to have a serial port (on a > tiny connector if physical space is an issue - provided either you > provide a dongle to something at least pseudo-standard or I can solder > to the pads and run wires out to whatever connector I want). Well...just two comments about that: You're not a potential user of this device (no offense intended...see below), and I consider USB to be pretty standard. > If you _must_ go USB, I must. It is a requirement from the customer, and this is for my employer. I personally prefer standard RS232 serial I/O as well, at 9600 8/N/1 like the rest of the world. The customer, however, has several thousand field personnel whose laptops do not have RS232 ports, and whose other field tasks involve connecting to USB-interfaced devices. (and many of those are FTDI-based) > I would _much_ rather have a USB device that looks like > a serial port, with known, reliable, stable software on the host, than > something which requires either running a vendor binary blob (which > usually won't run on what I want to talk to it with even if I were > willing to run it) or doing a bunch of driver hacking. "Unclean" can > go hang - especially if the alternative would mean increasing the > device cost to make up for having to buy a vendor ID. "Unclean" will not "go hang" here. I am incredibly anal with my designs. Period. With that out of the way...I design industrial control and communications systems based on requirements from the customer. They use OS X, Linux, and occasionally even Windows laptops in the field to access their devices. They don't mind installing the FTDI drivers on their machines to access their devices. FWIW, FTDI-based async serial ports work under NetBSD as well. I *think* there is a USB async serial I/O profile, but nobody (that I know of) has implemented it, and there has to be a reason for that. I've designed several USB peripherals and I am only peripherally (ahem) aware of the possible existence of the USB async serial I/O profile...that tells you how much traffic THAT gets. > If you really want your device to be useful to users (as opposed to > being useful to software license-to-use sales or some such), the only > excuse I can see for not looking like a stock serial port is if your > device wants to do something that is difficult or impossible within the > serial-port abstraction - or if there's already a standard abstraction > available for your device. (A video camera might be an example of both > of those simultaneously.) This is not a consumer device. I am not looking for an "excuse" to design in USB support. USB is not evil. In fact, for what it was designed to do, it works amazingly well. It's not even "new" anymore, so we can't use that excuse. In this case, though, this is what the (highly technical and just as anal as I am) customer has requested, and that's what they're getting. My question was an attempt to get a fellow designer's opinion of the level of design ugliness brought forth by implementing it with a separate chip, a widely used industry-standard controller (FTDI), while my microcontroller already has USB support (multiple in fact) on-chip. Fortunately said microcontroller has the ability to actually power down any peripheral controllers that are not in use. I like that a lot. One other important point here...there is insufficient space available for a DB25 or DE9 connector on the last two boards I designed. In most cases these control systems must mount inside existing systems' chassis, so physical form factor (as well as power, etc) are dictated for me. (as annoying as that is!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 19 00:18:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 01:18:01 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50307709.1070302@neurotica.com> On 08/18/2012 11:37 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Can't you clone the VID/PID pair and make it answer just like a FT232 > chip does? That's easy. The hard part is speaking the protocol that the FTDI chips speak over USB. That information is floating around, but this is a commercial product, and aside from not being able to afford the design time of writing the code to implement that protocol, I also can't afford to get fired for causing my employer that level of legal exposure. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 19 00:21:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 01:21:17 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <201208190435.AAA12299@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <5E92DBCB-4A96-499B-92A6-B135068FABF2@me.com> <201208190435.AAA12299@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <503077CD.4070300@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2012 12:35 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>> I feel awfully silly putting an FT232 on a board connecting it to a >>>> pair of UART pins on a microcontroller that already HAS a damn USB >>>> controller, [...] VID/PID [...] >>> Can't you clone the VID/PID pair and make it answer just like a >>> FT232 chip does? > > Probably, but that would likely get someone upset at you if the result > were to achieve wide distribution. Yes. This will be in the high tens of thousands in the first round alone; the purchase order has already been placed. >> If you do that, why not just save yourself the trouble of writing the >> code in the first place? > > Sometimes hardware costs - either primary (eg the chip) or secondary > (eg board space, power draw) outweigh software costs. This is almost always the case, stupid suits' assertions notwithstanding, once something gets produced in any sort of volume. >>> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >> Sent from my iPhone > > Would it be too much to ask that you not drop ads for your devices in > your email? I already get far too many ads as it is, and don't need > more - especially shoehorned into otherwise interesting discussions. It is an incredibly sleazy thing that all of these companies put crap like that into their configurations by default. Most people don't even know they're sending that stuff. Yuck! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 19 01:04:36 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 02:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208190604.CAA12740@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Just how "unclean" is it to waste the on-chip USB controller just >>> because of the suitly crap surrounding the Vendor IDs and stuff? >> As a potential device user, I would prefer [...] > Well...just two comments about that: You're not a potential user of > this device [...] Ah. I assumed we were speaking in generalities, not about any specific device. If it's not a device for general-purpose consumption, my remarks mostly do not apply. > (no offense intended...see below), None taken. > and I consider USB to be pretty standard. Like RS232, it is, strictly speaking. Also like RS232, the standard is widely ignored in at least some respects (I've got almost as many male-to-female extender cables with host-port male on one end and host-port female on the other as I do devices; such cables should not exist at all). Also like RS232, the hardware is only part of the problem; the software layers above are usually at least as important. However, the RS232 abstraction is substantially weaker than the USB abstraction, making those upper layers easier to work with in almost every respect. >> If you _must_ go USB, > I must. It is a requirement from the customer, [...] Sure. Again, I hadn't realized we were speaking about a specific limited-market device. >> "Unclean" can go hang - especially if [...] > "Unclean" will not "go hang" here. I am incredibly anal with my > designs. Period. Perhaps I was too abbreviated. To put it more precisely, "someone else's idea of `unclean' that's liberal enough to trip on just using a USB<->serial chip on the UART pins of a SoC instead of going through the whole USB VID dance can go hang, in the sense that I am not going to care about it". > USB is not evil. Not most of it. Some aspects of it come pretty close, though, perhaps most notably the vendor IDs; that paradigm could hardly have been designed better even by deliberate intent to lock out everyone but for-profit companies (and, maybe, a few of the richest hobbyists). > In fact, for what it was designed to do, it works amazingly well. > It's not even "new" anymore, so we can't use that excuse. The biggest problem I have with it is that it requires a full-fledged CPU or a comparable amount of custom silicon to speak at all - it is not amenable to "throw together a breadboard lashup from discretes" implementations. Of course, this is a purely personal point of view; there's only one other person here I'm reasonably sure will agree with it, that being tony. > My question was an attempt to get a fellow designer's opinion of the > level of design ugliness brought forth by implementing it with a > separate chip [...] while my microcontroller already has USB support > (multiple in fact) on-chip. Then I can't really offer an opinion, because that ugliness (to the extent that it is ugliness at all) has to be balanced off against other issues, most of which I don't have enough information on. (Examples are board space, other potential uses for the UART pins, and other potential uses for the on-chip USB interfaces.) > One other important point here...there is insufficient space > available for a DB25 or DE9 connector on the last two boards I > designed. That's a problem only if you think serial necessarily means one of those two. Indeed, there's no technical reason you couldn't use whatever connector you'd use for USB but put RS232 signals on its pins. (It'd be a problem waiting to happen in various respects, but those are reasons you might not want to do it, not reasons you couldn't if you wanted to. I'd prefer some other connector of similar size...though, again, that's speaking from a general-purpose-device viewpoint.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 19 02:23:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 03:23:10 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <201208190604.CAA12740@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> <201208190604.CAA12740@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5030945E.40200@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2012 02:04 AM, Mouse wrote: > Like RS232, it is, strictly speaking. Also like RS232, the standard is > widely ignored in at least some respects (I've got almost as many > male-to-female extender cables with host-port male on one end and > host-port female on the other as I do devices; such cables should not > exist at all). Also like RS232, the hardware is only part of the > problem; the software layers above are usually at least as important. Agreed mostly...The USB standard isn't "creatively interpreted" anywhere near as badly as RS232. It's not even in the same league in that department. That's the only thing I don't like about RS232. But then, 2/3/7 will get you talking to 98% of everything out there, and for the stuff that needs more, one of those little DB25->LEDs->DB25 boxes makes short work of nearly everything else. I do very much like RS232 in general; I'm quite pleased that it didn't "die off" as everyone (mostly suits with a vested interest in USB) predicted it would. It only left the desktop market. >>> If you _must_ go USB, >> I must. It is a requirement from the customer, [...] > > Sure. Again, I hadn't realized we were speaking about a specific > limited-market device. Yes, I'm sorry, I probably should've been more clear about that. >>> "Unclean" can go hang - especially if [...] >> "Unclean" will not "go hang" here. I am incredibly anal with my >> designs. Period. > > Perhaps I was too abbreviated. To put it more precisely, "someone > else's idea of `unclean' that's liberal enough to trip on just using a > USB<->serial chip on the UART pins of a SoC instead of going through > the whole USB VID dance can go hang, in the sense that I am not going > to care about it". Understood. >> USB is not evil. > > Not most of it. Some aspects of it come pretty close, though, perhaps > most notably the vendor IDs; that paradigm could hardly have been > designed better even by deliberate intent to lock out everyone but > for-profit companies (and, maybe, a few of the richest hobbyists). Yes, that part IS evil. Suits got involved. :-( > The biggest problem I have with it is that it requires a full-fledged > CPU or a comparable amount of custom silicon to speak at all - it is > not amenable to "throw together a breadboard lashup from discretes" > implementations. Of course, this is a purely personal point of view; > there's only one other person here I'm reasonably sure will agree with > it, that being tony. Well, the FTDI chips (assuming you're talking about the remote end) have that integrated, all nicely bundled up with very well-documented I/O and behaviors. They really are a pleasure to use. >> One other important point here...there is insufficient space >> available for a DB25 or DE9 connector on the last two boards I >> designed. > > That's a problem only if you think serial necessarily means one of > those two. Indeed, there's no technical reason you couldn't use > whatever connector you'd use for USB but put RS232 signals on its pins. > (It'd be a problem waiting to happen in various respects, but those are > reasons you might not want to do it, not reasons you couldn't if you > wanted to. I'd prefer some other connector of similar size...though, > again, that's speaking from a general-purpose-device viewpoint.) FWIW, my current design (the FTDI was used in the previous two) has a three-pin 0.1" header with TTL-level async serial for the CLI I wrote into the firmware. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From nick.allen at comcast.net Sat Aug 18 22:55:32 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 22:55:32 -0500 Subject: Sun 1 Computer LIVES!!! Message-ID: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> Thanks everyone (especially Bear) for the wonderful help in reviving my Sun 1 Computer (100u to be exact). After extensive CRT repairs, a EPROM reprogram (from Rev N to V100), my Sun is now booting via the Sun2 CPU card and the bwone video board. Will upload screenshots tomorrow! Next step is to acquire a keyboard and mouse. Anyone have a series 1 Parallel Keyboard and mouse? Or have any ideas on what type of keyboard or mouse would be compatible (if I was able to rewire to DB25). It appears to be a serial protocol, are the old RJ45 keyboards of the same format? Other ideas? Thanks a million, you are the best! -Nick From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 19 04:48:42 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 04:48:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wanted: video board for AlphaStation 200 4/233 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > I have an AlphaStation 200 4/233 which was given to me without a video board > or floppy drive. I stuck an old Teac FD-235HF in the floppy bay to fill the > hole (no data cable), but have no idea what I really need for a video board. > Based on the datasheet I found online, these appear to have been (some?) of > the video boards offered as options for this system: > > ZLXp-E1 8-plane PBXGA-AA PBXGA-AN [NT] > ZLXp-E2 24-plane PBXGA-BA PBXGA-BN [NT] > ZLXp-E3 24-plane PBXGA-CA PBXGA-CN [NT] > ZLXp-L1 24-plane PBXGC-AA > ZLXp-L2 24-plane PBXGC-BA > > Does anyone have an extra video board laying around that they would be > willing to part with for postage costs? This machine has been sitting unused > for far too long and I'd really like to put it to work. I've managed to locate a board which I think will do the trick. I had previously found a seller on eBay who had photos that showed the solder side of the video card in the same model computer: [USD $900 for an AS200?!] http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-Personal-WorkStation-AS200-233-PB42B-DB-AlphaStation-/190652401093 Using his photo, I was able to match the board up with the extensive photos this seller has in his listing: [USD $39 + $18 shipping for a single PCI video card? I don't think so...] http://www.ebay.com/itm/Number-Nine-PC00EPS0-2-PCI-Video-Card-S3-Trio64-86C764-P-/200807166156 ...which I was then able to match up with this board, the one I bought: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Number-9-NNVT-PCI-Video-Card-for-DEC-Alphaserver-AS4100-/330771741369 It only has 1MB of video memory, although if I can locate a pair of compatible SOJ memory chips, it can be upgraded to 2MB. While I don't know the model of the video board, it was made by Number Nine and has a board id of PC00EPS0-2. The chipset used is the S3 Trio64 86C764. I was also able to locate photos of the board here: http://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/content/article/776-s3-trio64- The same site also has photos of a number of other DEC video boards. DEC PBXGA-AN http://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/palcals-collection/58-other-cards/849-pbxga-an DEC PowerStorm 3D30 [PBXGC?] DEC PowerStorm 4D20 [PBXGD?] http://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/palcals-collection/112-ibm/868-ibm-26h3574 DEC PCXAG-AL Number Nine GXE64 http://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/content/article/656-s3-vision-864 I suppose once this Alpha is functional it will be time to do something with the Sparc LX that had been sitting up on the shelf beside the Alpha... From lproven at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 05:59:10 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:59:10 +0100 Subject: Emulating a long-lost portrait-display card for the PC Message-ID: I thought this might interest ClassicCmpers... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: John Elliott Date: 18 August 2012 00:01 Subject: [GEM Development] LongGEM is looooooong To: gem-dev at simpits.org One of the drivers in GEM that I've never been able to test is for an 'MDSI Genius' card. Tonight I tried patching support for this card into a PC emulator, and running GEM (and Windows 1) with the results. - GEM/2 desktop - Windows 1.04 According to reviews, the card could also do other tricks; it could superimpose MDA-style text on the graphics output, and do a dual-head sort of display with MDA text in the top half of the monitor and CGA graphics in the bottom. But without any documentation or its DOS driver (VHRBIOS.SYS), how it did those will remain a mystery. Such information as I have managed to glean is at . -- John Elliott _______________________________________________ gem-dev mailing list gem-dev at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Aug 19 08:38:41 2012 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 15:38:41 +0200 Subject: USB keypad with FTDI RS232 chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120819133841.137100@gmx.net> Hi everybody, the recent talk about FTDI USB/RS232 chips reminded me of this... Sometime ago, I bought a numeric USB keypad with a two-line dot matrix LCD on top on a flea market. This piece of hardware is designated DATACOMP Electronics co., Ltd. Model No.: DLK18U_100AL and has a marking referring to "alphyra" (which seems to have been a now-defunct/absorbed e-payment outfit) above the display. It has 18 keys (4 blank, ESC (red key body), numeric keypad "0"-"9",".", backspace (left arrow), and Enter (green key body)) and shows, IIRC, "Version 1.0" on the display when powered. The .tw-based manufacturer is alive and even has a driver download for it, which seems to be nothing more than an FTDI serial port driver providing a new COM port on my computer. The FTDI chip inside the keypad is attached to an EN78P447xxx device, which I found out to be an OTP microcontroller. What I unfortunately wasn't able to find yet was any description how to talk to/what to expect from this port. Listening on the COM port at various speeds with the usual 8n1 parameters and pressing keys on the keypad yielded nothing, so there's probably some sort of initialization necessary. A long shot again I know, but if somebody has experience or documentation regarding this keypad that may be shared, then please contact me. Yours truly, Arno Kletzander From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 10:40:45 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:40:45 -0500 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50303031.9030206@neurotica.com> References: , <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net>, <502FC1DE.29802.1DB5A4E@cclist.sydex.com> <50303031.9030206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <503108FD.2010907@gmail.com> On 08/18/2012 07:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Not everything on eBay is from Chinese sellers offering junk. > > ...and, in their defense (and I'm as annoyed about the whole China > issue as anyone else), not everything from the Chinese is junk. They'll build what people want them to build, and it's just unfortunate that the vast majority of people want cheap shit with poor reliability and a short lifespan. > not everything made in the USA is automatically good! I don't think that many things are (and it's true of many places, not just the USA, of course); it's hard to find new items with well-made parts designed with longevity and repairability (is that a word?) in mind; competition is still very cut-throat even at the top end, requiring manufacturers to cut corners wherever they can. cheers Jules From thannabus at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 09:45:07 2012 From: thannabus at gmail.com (Trevor Hannabus) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:45:07 +0200 Subject: ETI Mags Message-ID: Hi there, I saw your post some where and I thought I would reply. What I am doing is "scanning" in all my electronic magazines, and saving them as *.pdf files on my hard drive. I do remember seeing a 6802 project some where, I skipped it as I am more concerned with 6502 CPU based systems. My mags are from 1977 up to 1992 and this is ETI (UK), PE and EPE. I am now coming to the end of the ETI mags. If you want that article on the 6802 CPU, I can scan it and forward it. I am not sure what sort of copy right trouble this will invite, but as no money will exchange hands, I cant see them getting upset or anything Cheers Trevor From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 19 11:09:07 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:09:07 +0200 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120819180907.7a813359.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 01:16:38 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > I *think* there is a USB async serial I/O profile, but nobody (that I > know of) has implemented it, and there has to be a reason for that. You talk about USB CDC, Communications Device Class. This device class features several interfaces that e.g. mimic Ethernet or async serial connections. I am really surprised why it doesn't get widespread use like USB mass storage. Either it has some major design flaw. Or it is "too open". I.e. vendors like FTDI or Profilic are not able to "lock in" customers by folowing a generalized device class. Maybe it is just lazzyness of developers. They prefere to use a ready made chip that implements all the USB stuff then to implement a CDC device in there own firmware. Have a look at this application notes: http://www.atmel.com/images/doc4322.pdf http://www.atmel.com/images/doc7619.pdf and the official class definitions: http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/CDC1.2_WMC1.1_012011.zip -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From microcode at zoho.com Sun Aug 19 11:11:34 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:11:34 +0000 Subject: ETI Mags In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120819161134.GD23118@zoho.com> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 04:45:07PM +0200, Trevor Hannabus wrote: > Hi there, I saw your post some where and I thought I would reply. What I > am doing is "scanning" in all my electronic magazines, and saving them as > *.pdf files on my hard drive. I do remember seeing a 6802 project some > where, I skipped it as I am more concerned with 6502 CPU based systems. Planning on hosting this anywhere? I'd like to see what you have. Bombjack has a pretty nice selection of 6502 and specifically Commodore stuff at www.bombjack.org -- _ _ ._ _ _ <_> ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _| | ___ | ' ' || |/ | '| '_>/ . \/ | '/ . \/ . |/ ._> |_|_|_||_|\_|_.|_| \___/\_|_.\___/\___|\___. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 19 11:23:25 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 12:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Chinese products [was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies.] In-Reply-To: <503108FD.2010907@gmail.com> References: <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <502FC1DE.29802.1DB5A4E@cclist.sydex.com> <50303031.9030206@neurotica.com> <503108FD.2010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201208191623.MAA14710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...], not everything from the Chinese is junk. > They'll build what people want them to build, and it's just > unfortunate that the vast majority of people want cheap shit with > poor reliability and a short lifespan. I think that's inaccurate at least by implication. I think it's not the individual end users that want that. I think it's the intermediate companies. They want inexpensive and they want it to die ASAP after the warranty period. We don't know what end users want. They are mostly not given an chance to express a desire for anything else by purchasing decisions, since it's difficult to find anything else amid the ocean of race-to-the-bottom cheap crap. Most end users have never encountered decent reliability. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 19 11:28:29 2012 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1345393709.13158.YahooMailNeo@web163005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ? Yeah, y'know, I'm doing a bit of that myself lately.? I feel awfully >silly putting an FT232 on a board connecting it to a pair of UART pins >on a microcontroller that already HAS a damn USB controller, but the >FTDI drivers are available for lots of platforms, and they work well, >and the USB VID/PID situation sucks.? Do you have any thoughts here? >Just how "unclean" is it to waste the on-chip USB controller just >because of the suitly crap surrounding the Vendor IDs and stuff? > >? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >I've done it both ways very recently.? In this case, the uC is a microchip part.? It comes down to a few issues: - Hardware costs and board space - obvious - Firmware development costs and time schedule.? It MAY be quicker to drop the FT232 chip in and use the UART than to bring up the USB interface for the first time using the developer library.? If you already have one project implementing the same protocol, this is not much of an issue, though. - Driver issues.? The FT232 drivers are easily installed on most OS's and work well.?? For the on-chip solution, the Communications Device Class (CDC) virtual COM port protocol is pretty well supported by Windows 7, Linux (and other Unix-like systems such as OS X) out of the box.? Not sure about XP or older windows installations, though. - Vendor ID/Product ID: If you implement on-chip, you can encode these directly in firmware.? The FTDI chip, as far as I can tell, can only be programmed via the USB side, which means an extra step during manufacturing:? You will have to hook up the device and run a utility that sets the VIP/PID codes.? For me, that's a disadvantage for the FTDI. So looking at a new project, it would depend on the scenario: - low volume, high margin, quick development time: FTDI is great. - high volume: pretty much would want the on-chip solution. - update of an old design, including move to USB from RS-232.? Perhaps better to go with the FTDI, and avoid the need to port to a newer uC, unless volumes are expected to be high, or other requirements make the move to a new chip necessary. - pre-existing code for the on-chip USB engine is already written for your chip--then FTDI seems redundant - host platform somehow has broken CDC driver, or FTDI driver, choice is made for you! BTW, if you're making a lot of USB devices, it's not that expensive ($1000 USD) to get a VID (as long as you don't care about the logo, or consortium membership). Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 19 11:29:10 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 12:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120819180907.7a813359.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> <20120819180907.7a813359.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201208191629.MAA14751@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > You talk about USB CDC, Communications Device Class. [...]. Or it > is "too open". I.e. vendors like FTDI or Profilic are not able to > "lock in" customers by folowing a generalized device class. I'm inclined to doubt that's it, because the same thing hasn't happened with video. The two USB cameras I own - one built into a laptop and the other a cheap plug-in camera - are video devices, following the video device spec (as far as I've been able to tell so far; I haven't actually got code to drive either one yet, but the descriptors match). And I can't see any reason it'd happen with serial but not video. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Aug 19 13:24:20 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:24:20 +0200 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120819202420.Horde.U-u7DKQd9PdQMS9UG5JgPnA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> Is it so hard to just read the article? > > On this machine, > Yes. telnet at least? # telnet www.adafruit.com 80 > test.html "GET /blog/2012/08/16/hans-camenzind-inventor-of-the-555-dies/ HTTP/1.1 Host: www.adafruit.com Connection closed by foreign host. Exit 1 # awk '/
/ {block=0} { if(block==1) {gsub(/<[^>]*>/,"",$0);print;} }' test.html Hans Camenzind, the Swiss emigre analog guru who invented one of the most successful circuits in electronics history and introduced the concept of phase-locked loop to IC design, passed away in his sleep at the age of 78. The news was reported today (Aug. 15) by Sergio Franco, an emeritus professor of electrical engineering at San Francisco State University in an email. Camenzind came to the United States in 1960 and worked for several years at some of the storied names of the newly developing semiconductor industry: Transitron, Tyco Semiconductor, and Signetics. In 1971 he joined the ranks of entrepreneurs by founding InterDesign, a company specializing in semi-custom integrated circuit design. It was there, working under a contract with Signetics, that he invented the 555 timer.?? Signetics commercialized the device in 1972, and it went on to become one of the most successful in the industry’s history. The device, used in oscillator, pulse-generation and other applications, is still widely used today. Versions of the device have been or are still made by dozens of major semiconductor vendors, including Texas Instruments, Intersil, Maxim, Avago, Exar, Fairchild, NXP and STMicroelectronics. # From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Aug 19 13:27:40 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:27:40 +0200 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: <20120817085630.Horde.H1GJXaQd9PdQLeseOVtxbrI@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120819202740.Horde.M6ktVqQd9PdQMTAcxQNxgYA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> Is it so hard to just read the article? > > If you ask so, then yes. I didn't want to put alpine in the > background and start lynx on the VT100 etc. Only one terminal? Thats sad... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 13:01:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:01:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Aug 18, 12 06:43:41 pm Message-ID: > For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or 2232 > or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of real > RS232 for the simple reason that our clients have a hard time finding > PCs with serial ports and are too clueless to buy proper serial > adaptors. Plus, a mini-USB port takes up a lot less room on the panel > than one DE9 (let alone four), and the chips generally cost about the > same as a decent RS232 level converter. What I would prefer (at least for devices that don't need the high data throughput of USB) is that the device has an asynchronous port brought out to some suitable connecotr and that said devie is shipped with a USB interface cable that plugs into said connecotr. And of course that all this is documented. That way, users that prefer USB and/or have modern PCbs can just plug in and go. I can make a level shifter, plug that in, and conenct said device to an RX232 port. Bust of all worlds... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 19 13:14:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:14:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <5030945E.40200@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 19, 12 03:23:10 am Message-ID: > > On 08/19/2012 02:04 AM, Mouse wrote: > > Like RS232, it is, strictly speaking. Also like RS232, the standard is > > widely ignored in at least some respects (I've got almost as many > > male-to-female extender cables with host-port male on one end and > > host-port female on the other as I do devices; such cables should not > > exist at all). Also like RS232, the hardware is only part of the > > problem; the software layers above are usually at least as important. > > Agreed mostly...The USB standard isn't "creatively interpreted" > anywhere near as badly as RS232. It's not even in the same league in > that department. That's the only thing I don't like about RS232. I don't quite see it like that. Most USB devices seem to come with a driver (OK, memroy sticks don't, but just about everything else does). Of that driver is not avaialble for USB host machine/OS then you are likely to have problems. It is quite possible to make a device that connects to a PC DE( 'RS232' port and which, when used wit hthe driver that comes with it, 'just works'. No problems with the connecotr wiring, setting the baud rate and other parameters, that's all taken care for. The differnece is that the second device is a lot easier to use on older machines that don't have a USB interface. > > But then, 2/3/7 will get you talking to 98% of everything out there, > and for the stuff that needs more, one of those little DB25->LEDs->DB25 > boxes makes short work of nearly everything else. I do very much like > RS232 in general; I'm quite pleased that it didn't "die off" as everyone > (mostly suits with a vested interest in USB) predicted it would. It > only left the desktop market. Well, as just about all my machinjes, going back over 40 years, have RS232 prots, I certainly like it. A few weeks abck I was given a rather nic 'Balck Box' RS232 tester. I don't mean a breakout box, although one of those came with it. It mean oen of those things that grabes the data on the TxD and RxD lines, grabs the modem control lines at the same time, and so on. I was told that nobody uses RS232 any more. But I can certainly use it... ObCC. That unit contains a Z180 CPU, a Z8530 serial chip (yes it handles synchronous data too), 128K bytes of RAM, a 64K byte PEROM, and a bit of TTL. SO I guess it's a classic computer. -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Aug 19 17:07:11 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:07:11 +0000 Subject: Tek oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: <502D65E5.4010205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8/16/12 2:28 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: >Christian Corti wrote: >> I really love our Tektronix 555, the best scope ever made. > >I like the Tek 465 much better than the 555. And I like the 2245/46/47 >even better. But I don't think there's any model that qualifies as >"best scope ever made", for the same reason that there isn't any "best >car ever made": the category is too broad, and different models are >better for meeting different requirements. > I have to share/boast: I have a (working) Tek 561A and just acquired all the *original* manuals. I have the manuals for the scope itself, the 2B67 time base, and the 3A74 and 3A75 plug-ins. I'm such a geek. -- Ian From kelly at catcorner.org Sun Aug 19 17:46:01 2012 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:46:01 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in servicing a trs-80 external hard drive Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15CF3@meow.catcorner.org> I know of someone in Jackson, Mississippi looking for someone to service and repair the external hard drives for some Tandy 6000 computers. Anyone interested? Kelly at catcorner.org From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 18:00:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:00:59 -0400 Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or 2232 >> or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of real >> RS232 for the simple reason that our clients have a hard time finding >> PCs with serial ports and are too clueless to buy proper serial >> adaptors. Plus, a mini-USB port takes up a lot less room on the panel >> than one DE9 (let alone four), and the chips generally cost about the >> same as a decent RS232 level converter. > > What I would prefer (at least for devices that don't need the high data > throughput of USB) is that the device has an asynchronous port brought > out to some suitable connecotr and that said devie is shipped with a USB > interface cable that plugs into said connecotr. And of course that all > this is documented. > > That way, users that prefer USB and/or have modern PCbs can just plug in > and go. I can make a level shifter, plug that in, and conenct said device > to an RX232 port. Bust of all worlds... I think that's a fine idea, but you might be surprised at how many of our customers balk at even that. Then again, you might not be all that surprised. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 18:08:49 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:08:49 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1D2130F6-BF66-45CD-BF47-84980463FBC2@gmail.com> On Aug 18, 2012, at 8:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/18/2012 06:43 PM, David Riley wrote: >> For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or 2232 >> or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of real >> RS232 for the simple reason that our clients have a hard time finding >> PCs with serial ports and are too clueless to buy proper serial >> adaptors. Plus, a mini-USB port takes up a lot less room on the panel >> than one DE9 (let alone four), and the chips generally cost about the >> same as a decent RS232 level converter. > > Yeah, y'know, I'm doing a bit of that myself lately. I feel awfully > silly putting an FT232 on a board connecting it to a pair of UART pins > on a microcontroller that already HAS a damn USB controller, but the > FTDI drivers are available for lots of platforms, and they work well, > and the USB VID/PID situation sucks. Do you have any thoughts here? > Just how "unclean" is it to waste the on-chip USB controller just > because of the suitly crap surrounding the Vendor IDs and stuff? It's absolutely the VID/PID stuff. If there had been a generic USB serial class (like there is for HIDs), we wouldn't have to worry about it, but VID/PID rules all. I'd love to have just a simple byte-by-byte FIFO using the built-in USB controller, but we'd have to make drivers available for every platform under the sun, and that wouldn't be worth the trouble. Spending $5 or less on a USB chip (some of which have very few external passives) seems like the next best thing, since FTDI drivers are available for nearly everything. As usual, it's Windows that's the problem; it's difficult to have generic, user-space-accessed USB devices like you can have under libusb under most Unix flavors (including OS X). As soon as you plug your device in under Windows, it starts demanding a driver. I believe there may be a filter-based approach for using libusb's Win32 port, but it does require manual user intervention, and I can't count on our users being smart enough to do it (more likely, they reject it out of hand as "too difficult" before trying it). That said, if you're never targeting Windows, just say "screw it" and try and find a VID/PID that doesn't exist elsewhere and let libusb do the work in userland. No driver headaches. And of course, if you're doing a data-intensive application, using the native USB controller is the obvious choice because the FT232 and cousins top out at about 10 Mbps, if memory serves. At that point, it's usually worth mucking about with a real controller. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 18:11:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:11:06 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2012, at 11:37 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Can't you clone the VID/PID pair and make it answer just like a FT232 chip does? You *can*, but then you have to duplicate the FT232's protocol in order to allow FTDI's driver to control it. That can be a lot of work, especially since I'm not sure the protocol is officially documented anywhere (there are open-source libraries that do the controller end, so you could theoretically base it off that, but it sounds like trouble). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 18:15:46 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:15:46 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <201208190604.CAA12740@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> <201208190604.CAA12740@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2012, at 2:04 AM, Mouse wrote: >> In fact, for what it was designed to do, it works amazingly well. >> It's not even "new" anymore, so we can't use that excuse. > > The biggest problem I have with it is that it requires a full-fledged > CPU or a comparable amount of custom silicon to speak at all - it is > not amenable to "throw together a breadboard lashup from discretes" > implementations. Of course, this is a purely personal point of view; > there's only one other person here I'm reasonably sure will agree with > it, that being tony. Well, not the only one. That's my primary issue with USB, as it is with PCI. But I do recognize that once speeds get into the tens of MHz, things rapidly fall out of the "hobbyist" range, so much like most Ethernet implementations, I'll accept a third-party VLSI controller chip to perform translation to something else (e.g. CMOS- level serial) to use it. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 18:18:52 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:18:52 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <5030945E.40200@neurotica.com> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> <201208190604.CAA12740@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5030945E.40200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8BBE6D8E-CE90-4912-BCA4-EC1647CBCC83@gmail.com> On Aug 19, 2012, at 3:23 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > FWIW, my current design (the FTDI was used in the previous two) has a > three-pin 0.1" header with TTL-level async serial for the CLI I wrote > into the firmware. ;) We did that on the last project before we moved to FTDI chips. The customer's "engineers" kept plugging power into it, despite the fact that the power connector had four pins and was keyed. Some folks you just can't reach... BTW, the FTDI approach is not without its flaws. The specific thing that sticks in my craw is that unlike RS232 cables, if you unplug the port with the terminal app still open, the terminal program goes batshit because its device has just disappeared out from under it, with varying results from just having to restart the terminal program (GNU screen) to a bluescreen (occasionally HyperTerminal on WinXP, though honestly that was probably a driver issue). - Dave From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun Aug 19 18:18:27 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:18:27 -0700 Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions Message-ID: <50317443.4040106@gorge.net> I have a HP 9000/300 68000 with an extra processor card. I was surprised when I pulled the processor card from the machine and discovered a 68030 CPU. I was shocked I didn't remember that card. Looking for software, I checked bitsavers, but only located a Pascal compiler. Does this machine have any interesting (O/S) software freely available? Are their any list members playing with this machine? Is it possible to boot from the GPIB? I'm behind a dial-up wall and I was hoping to save some bandwidth before downloading the manuals. Thanks, - Jim. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 19 19:07:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <50317443.4040106@gorge.net> from jimpdavis at "Aug 19, 12 04:18:27 pm" Message-ID: <201208200007.q7K07oD310420304@floodgap.com> > I have a HP 9000/300 68000 with an extra processor card. > I was surprised when I pulled the processor card from the machine and > discovered a 68030 CPU. > I was shocked I didn't remember that card. > Looking for software, I checked bitsavers, but only located a Pascal > compiler. > Does this machine have any interesting (O/S) software freely available? > Are their any list members playing with this machine? > Is it possible to boot from the GPIB? > I'm behind a dial-up wall and I was hoping to save some bandwidth before > downloading the manuals. I have an HP 9000/350 and it boots from a hard disk connected over HP-IB into HP-UX. They are very nice machines. NetBSD has an hp300 port, but for historical purposes I prefer to run HP-UX. You can run up to 9.x on them (10.0 required PA-RISC). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Intel outside -- 6502 inside! ---------------------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 19 19:24:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:24:54 -0700 Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <201208200007.q7K07oD310420304@floodgap.com> References: <201208200007.q7K07oD310420304@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <503183D6.6030006@bitsavers.org> On 8/19/12 5:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I have a HP 9000/300 68000 with an extra processor card. >> I was surprised when I pulled the processor card from the machine and >> discovered a 68030 CPU. >> I was shocked I didn't remember that card. >> Looking for software, I checked bitsavers, but only located a Pascal >> compiler. >> Does this machine have any interesting (O/S) software freely available? >> Are their any list members playing with this machine? >> Is it possible to boot from the GPIB? >> I'm behind a dial-up wall and I was hoping to save some bandwidth before >> downloading the manuals. > > I have an HP 9000/350 and it boots from a hard disk connected over HP-IB > into HP-UX. They are very nice machines. > > NetBSD has an hp300 port, but for historical purposes I prefer to run > HP-UX. You can run up to 9.x on them (10.0 required PA-RISC). > PASCAL and BASIC are available for them. Check the Australian HP museum for on-line disk images. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun Aug 19 19:53:10 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:53:10 -0700 Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <201208200007.q7K07oD310420304@floodgap.com> References: <201208200007.q7K07oD310420304@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50318A76.60009@gorge.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I have a HP 9000/300 68000 with an extra processor card. >> I was surprised when I pulled the processor card from the machine and >> discovered a 68030 CPU. >> I was shocked I didn't remember that card. >> Looking for software, I checked bitsavers, but only located a Pascal >> compiler. >> Does this machine have any interesting (O/S) software freely available? >> Are their any list members playing with this machine? >> Is it possible to boot from the GPIB? >> I'm behind a dial-up wall and I was hoping to save some bandwidth before >> downloading the manuals. > I have an HP 9000/350 and it boots from a hard disk connected over HP-IB > into HP-UX. They are very nice machines. > > NetBSD has an hp300 port, but for historical purposes I prefer to run > HP-UX. You can run up to 9.x on them (10.0 required PA-RISC). > Thanks Al and Cameron, I tried to put together a full system in 2000, but wacky willies was asking $50 US for the GPIB hard disk. That now seems pretty cheap.Unless you're trying to sell it. The system contains 4 MB on a mezzanine and 2 X 1 MB cards. It looks like it was used for something interesting, It also contains a floating point board. Is that useful in a 030 setup? Unfortunately, No SCSI or other I/O I don't remember if the 030 board was in the original configuration, so the FP board would figure into a 68K solution. -Jim From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 20:03:36 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:03:36 -0700 Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <50318A76.60009@gorge.net> References: <201208200007.q7K07oD310420304@floodgap.com> <50318A76.60009@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2012 5:56 PM, "jimpdavis" wrote: > > I tried to put together a full system in 2000, but wacky willies was asking $50 US for the GPIB hard disk. > That now seems pretty cheap. > > -Jim Finding a working HPIB hard drive at a reasonable price might be a challenge these days. There is the HPDrive emulator if you don't have one. http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 19 20:25:15 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: from Glen Slick at "Aug 19, 12 06:03:36 pm" Message-ID: <201208200125.q7K1PG4E14483508@floodgap.com> > > I tried to put together a full system in 2000, but wacky willies was > > asking $50 US for the GPIB hard disk. > > That now seems pretty cheap. > > Finding a working HPIB hard drive at a reasonable price might be a > challenge these days. > > There is the HPDrive emulator if you don't have one. > > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ Does that work with the HP 9000 series? I don't recognize any of the models. My 9000/350 has a 6000/670H connected, which was supposed to replace the 793x/796x type hard disks, and it doesn't seem to support those either. I do have a 9122 *floppy* disk, and it does seem to support the 9121, so that's probably close enough for *floppies.* But, PC GPIB cards aren't exactly cheap themselves ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ACTUAL CLASSIFIED AD: Parachute, used once, never opened, small stain. $100 From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 20:25:39 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:25:39 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> M9301 are the terminator and bootstrap boards right ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-15-Unibus-16-Bit-Minicomputer-No-Reserve-/390454290276 From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 19 20:35:27 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <50318A76.60009@gorge.net> from jimpdavis at "Aug 19, 12 05:53:10 pm" Message-ID: <201208200135.q7K1ZRG712648508@floodgap.com> > > I have an HP 9000/350 and it boots from a hard disk connected over HP-IB > > into HP-UX. They are very nice machines. > > > > NetBSD has an hp300 port, but for historical purposes I prefer to run > > HP-UX. You can run up to 9.x on them (10.0 required PA-RISC). > > I tried to put together a full system in 2000, but wacky willies was > asking $50 US for the GPIB hard disk. > That now seems pretty cheap.Unless you're trying to sell it. I would have bought that ... > The system contains 4 MB on a mezzanine and 2 X 1 MB cards. It looks > like it was used for something interesting, > It also contains a floating point board. Is that useful in a 030 setup? Yes. The '030 has an integrated MMU, not an FPU. So a 68881/2 would have been particularly handy for a workstation. > Unfortunately, No SCSI or other I/O Mine just has HP-IB, and I don't know it would boot from a SCSI card anyway. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 19 20:44:15 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:44:15 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> On 8/19/12 6:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: > M9301 are the terminator and bootstrap boards right ? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-15-Unibus-16-Bit-Minicomputer-No-Reserve-/390454290276 > > The chassis has been gutted and replaced with something homemade Hope someone doesn't get suckered into thinking it is a computer. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 20:46:16 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 21:46:16 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 9:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: > M9301 are the terminator and bootstrap boards right ? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-15-Unibus-16-Bit-Minicomputer-No-Reserve-/390454290276 Those are W9301 boards - blank wire-wrap prototype boards (obviously no longer blank). -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 20:53:54 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:53:54 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503198B2.80607@gmail.com> On 8/19/2012 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/19/12 6:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> M9301 are the terminator and bootstrap boards right ? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-15-Unibus-16-Bit-Minicomputer-No-Reserve-/390454290276 >> >> >> > The chassis has been gutted and replaced with something homemade > > > Hope someone doesn't get suckered into thinking it is a computer. > Hopefully anyone even thinking about buying a 11/15 would notice there is no computer in that computer. Wonder what all that is for though. Nice front panel anyway. One picture makes it look like those boards may be wired to it. Hopefully that wasn't messed up. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 20:57:49 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 21:57:49 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <08EEDB8A-09EF-4843-99C2-63909E6985B1@gmail.com> On Aug 19, 2012, at 9:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/19/12 6:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> M9301 are the terminator and bootstrap boards right ? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-15-Unibus-16-Bit-Minicomputer-No-Reserve-/390454290276 >> >> > The chassis has been gutted and replaced with something homemade > > > Hope someone doesn't get suckered into thinking it is a computer. Well, *maybe* it's a computer. It's hard to say. If nothing else, I guess it's a nice UNIBUS backplane with a PDP-11/15 front panel, which I'd pay $25 for. I don't think I'd pay an additional $32.69 to ship it, though. - Dave From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 20:58:44 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:58:44 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503199D4.1030301@gmail.com> On 8/19/2012 6:46 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Those are W9301 boards - blank wire-wrap prototype boards (obviously > no longer blank). -ethan Ahh..I googled M9301 out of habit. W9301 is pretty much what I expected they were going to be. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 19 21:18:36 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:18:36 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in servicing a trs-80 external hard drive In-Reply-To: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15CF3@meow.catcorner.org> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15CF3@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <50319E7C.3050607@brouhaha.com> Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: > I know of someone in Jackson, Mississippi looking for someone to service > and repair the external hard drives for some Tandy 6000 computers. > Anyone interested? Having just been through the process of repairing external drives for some Model II, 16, and 16B computers (the latter ones being nearly the same as a 6000), I'd offer to do it, but my working Model 16 is in California and I'm not. Does the person with the hard drives know for sure that it is the drives that are broken, as opposed to something having gone wrong with the Xenix software stored on the drives? And in either case, do they have backups of their data? From saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Aug 19 21:41:42 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> Message: 18 Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:01:09 -0400 From: Paul Anderson To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter Message-ID: <60923E11-6481-4A2C-91FA-FCCFDAF18AA0 at me.com> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII I'd keep it as a typewriter. They're great machines. Seconded. The Selectric (Correcting Selectric II) is my favorite typewriter. A bit too heavy to be considered portable, but solid and great feel. You'd need to recreate all of the drive and decode mechanism - it wouldn't be worth it unless you were very interested in recreating a Selectric Terminal Typewriter rather than just having a printing terminal. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 19 22:52:38 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:52:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Aug 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 19, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> For what it's worth, at work, I've taken to putting an FT232 (or 2232 >>> or 4232, depending on how many ports) on new boards instead of real >>> RS232 for the simple reason that our clients have a hard time finding >>> PCs with serial ports and are too clueless to buy proper serial >>> adaptors. Plus, a mini-USB port takes up a lot less room on the panel >>> than one DE9 (let alone four), and the chips generally cost about the >>> same as a decent RS232 level converter. >> >> What I would prefer (at least for devices that don't need the high data >> throughput of USB) is that the device has an asynchronous port brought >> out to some suitable connecotr and that said devie is shipped with a USB >> interface cable that plugs into said connecotr. And of course that all >> this is documented. >> >> That way, users that prefer USB and/or have modern PCbs can just plug in >> and go. I can make a level shifter, plug that in, and conenct said device >> to an RX232 port. Bust of all worlds... > > I think that's a fine idea, but you might be surprised at how many of > our customers balk at even that. > > Then again, you might not be all that surprised. ...or they manage to break/pull the USB pigtail cable out of the USB to serial adapter. I repaired one such adapter where the user had attempted to /superglue/ the individual wires to the pc board inside the adapter (also breaking many of the clamshell case's clips in the process). It took me longer to scrape and remove all the superglue from the pc board than it did to solder and then reinforce the connection so that it wouldn't break again. I wish now that I had taken a photograph of that one. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 19 22:54:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 23:54:14 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5031B4E6.4090207@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2012 02:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Like RS232, it is, strictly speaking. Also like RS232, the standard is >>> widely ignored in at least some respects (I've got almost as many >>> male-to-female extender cables with host-port male on one end and >>> host-port female on the other as I do devices; such cables should not >>> exist at all). Also like RS232, the hardware is only part of the >>> problem; the software layers above are usually at least as important. >> >> Agreed mostly...The USB standard isn't "creatively interpreted" >> anywhere near as badly as RS232. It's not even in the same league in >> that department. That's the only thing I don't like about RS232. > > I don't quite see it like that. Most USB devices seem to come with a > driver (OK, memroy sticks don't, but just about everything else does). > Of that driver is not avaialble for USB host machine/OS then you are > likely to have problems. That does happen, yes. I myself never experience it because I don't buy USB devices that aren't "standardized", i.e. show up as a mass storage device or a HID (keyboard, mouse, etc) device, unless I already know it will work on whatever platform I have in mind. (what a concept...being an informed buyer...out of style, I know) > A few weeks abck I was given a rather nic 'Balck Box' RS232 tester. I > don't mean a breakout box, although one of those came with it. It mean > oen of those things that grabes the data on the TxD and RxD lines, grabs > the modem control lines at the same time, and so on. I was told that > nobody uses RS232 any more. But I can certainly use it... Well...whoever told you that is a moron, plain and simple. > ObCC. That unit contains a Z180 CPU, a Z8530 serial chip (yes it handles > synchronous data too), 128K bytes of RAM, a 64K byte PEROM, and a bit of > TTL. SO I guess it's a classic computer. Oh that could even be repurposed for even more fun things! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 19 23:06:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 00:06:36 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <8BBE6D8E-CE90-4912-BCA4-EC1647CBCC83@gmail.com> References: <20120817091250.O67644@shell.lmi.net> <502E119A.16509.42CF26@cclist.sydex.com> <20120817150322.L68255@shell.lmi.net> <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <503030C1.7080606@neurotica.com> <201208190329.XAA10934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <503076B6.5000102@neurotica.com> <201208190604.CAA12740@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5030945E.40200@neurotica.com> <8BBE6D8E-CE90-4912-BCA4-EC1647CBCC83@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5031B7CC.2040404@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2012 07:18 PM, David Riley wrote: >> FWIW, my current design (the FTDI was used in the previous two) has a >> three-pin 0.1" header with TTL-level async serial for the CLI I wrote >> into the firmware. ;) > > We did that on the last project before we moved to FTDI chips. The > customer's "engineers" kept plugging power into it, despite the fact > that the power connector had four pins and was keyed. Some folks > you just can't reach... Engineers, huh? ;) Gads. > BTW, the FTDI approach is not without its flaws. The specific thing > that sticks in my craw is that unlike RS232 cables, if you unplug the > port with the terminal app still open, the terminal program goes > batshit because its device has just disappeared out from under it, > with varying results from just having to restart the terminal program > (GNU screen) to a bluescreen (occasionally HyperTerminal on WinXP, > though honestly that was probably a driver issue). Ugh, yes. Try Minicom; it understands that problem and will try to reconnect, and pick up right where it left off. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Aug 19 23:27:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 00:27:56 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <5031B4E6.4090207@neurotica.com> References: <5031B4E6.4090207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <611A2894-CDEA-45D9-BBC3-BE3A9E11660D@gmail.com> On Aug 19, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ObCC. That unit contains a Z180 CPU, a Z8530 serial chip (yes it handles >> synchronous data too), 128K bytes of RAM, a 64K byte PEROM, and a bit of >> TTL. SO I guess it's a classic computer. > > Oh that could even be repurposed for even more fun things! Indeed; I'm actually a little familiar with that setup through this app note, which is pretty handy even for people with Inside Appletalk who wish to implement LocalTalk on an embedded controller: http://www.zilog.com/docs/z180/appnotes/loctalk.pdf The Z181 sounds like a nifty little controller! - Dave From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun Aug 19 23:50:54 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 21:50:54 -0700 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5031C22E.8000604@gorge.net> Scott Quinn wrote: > Message: 18 > Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:01:09 -0400 > From: Paul Anderson > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal > Typewriter > Message-ID: <60923E11-6481-4A2C-91FA-FCCFDAF18AA0 at me.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > I'd keep it as a typewriter. They're great machines. > > > > Seconded. The Selectric (Correcting Selectric II) is my favorite typewriter. A bit too heavy to be considered > portable, but solid and great feel. > > You'd need to recreate all of the drive and decode mechanism - it wouldn't be worth it unless you were > very interested in recreating a Selectric Terminal Typewriter rather than just having a printing terminal. > Hunter Thompson carried one. If you can pick it up or it has a handle, it's portable. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 00:02:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:02:34 -0700 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> References: , <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5031627A.26487.2C7C224@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2012 at 22:41, Scott Quinn wrote: > Seconded. The Selectric (Correcting Selectric II) is my favorite > typewriter. A bit too heavy to be considered portable, but solid and > great feel. I have one of those (in green) wide-carriage from UC Berkeley surplus. Anyone know how to replace the motor drive belt without ending up with lots of bits and pieces strewn about? If there's an easy way, I don't see it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 00:11:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:11:17 -0700 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <611A2894-CDEA-45D9-BBC3-BE3A9E11660D@gmail.com> References: , <5031B4E6.4090207@neurotica.com>, <611A2894-CDEA-45D9-BBC3-BE3A9E11660D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50316485.23968.2CFBE16@cclist.sydex.com> Lots of chat about the FTDI chips here, but I've also used the Atmel AT90USB162 chips. 32-pin TQFP, runs from 5V (provides a regulated 3.3V 50ma output) includes the usual small MCU stuff like USART, timers, comparator and SPI. Cheap--about $2 and change Q1. Anyone else like this little chip or am I just strange? --Chuck From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Aug 19 15:56:08 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (nick.allen at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:56:08 +0000 Subject: Sun 1 Computer LIVES!!! Message-ID: <128919934-1345409770-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1004110340-@b28.c15.bise6.blackberry> Not sure of the memory, will need to look that up. I do have a sun 2 keyboard, I wonder if it is a possibility to connect it to the bwtwo video board exclusively for the keyboard use, while maintaining the bwone video board at the same time for video use. ------Original Message------ From: David Brownlee To: nick.allen at comcast.net Subject: Re: Sun 1 Computer LIVES!!! Sent: Aug 19, 2012 1:11 PM On 19 August 2012 04:55, Nick Allen wrote: > Thanks everyone (especially Bear) for the wonderful help in reviving my Sun > 1 Computer (100u to be exact). > > After extensive CRT repairs, a EPROM reprogram (from Rev N to V100), my Sun > is now booting via the Sun2 CPU card and the bwone video board. > > Will upload screenshots tomorrow! Excellent stuff! Looking forward to more pictures :) Out of curiosity how much memory do you have for the system (just wondering about different OS options :) > Next step is to acquire a keyboard and mouse. Anyone have a series 1 > Parallel Keyboard and mouse? Or have any ideas on what type of keyboard or > mouse would be compatible (if I was able to rewire to DB25). It appears to > be a serial protocol, are the old RJ45 keyboards of the same format? Other > ideas? As its a sun2 board with modified firmware maybe it might be possible to get it talking to a sun2 serial keyboard? Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Aug 19 20:05:41 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:05:41 -0500 Subject: Sun 1 Keyboard Message-ID: <50318D65.3050505@comcast.net> Looks like the 50pin connection (J1) on the SUN2 CPU has 2 serial ports, found a pinout: The two serial ports on J1 are usually labelled SIO-A and SIO-B on the back of the machine and appear as /dev/ttya and /dev/ttyb under SunOS. The documented maximum output speed is 19200 bps. All ports are wired DTE and are compatible with both RS-232C and RS-423, using Zilog Z8530A dual UART chips. The pinout of J1 is: 3 TxD-A 14 DTR-A 33 DD-B 4 DB-A 15 DCD-A 34 CTS-B 5 RxD-A 22 DA-A 36 DSR-B 7 RTS-A 24 BSY-A 38 GND-B 8 DD-A 28 TxD-B 39 DTR-B 9 CTS-A 29 DB-B 40 DCD-B 11 DSR-A 30 RxD-B 47 DA-B 13 GND-A 32 RTS-B 49 BSY-B Is the Sun 2 Keyboard a serial keyboard? If not, any ideas on where to get a serial keyboard. Thanks everyone! -Nick From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 20 01:41:04 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:41:04 +0200 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50316485.23968.2CFBE16@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5031B4E6.4090207@neurotica.com> <611A2894-CDEA-45D9-BBC3-BE3A9E11660D@gmail.com> <50316485.23968.2CFBE16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120820084104.d1370718.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:11:17 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: [AT90USB162] > Anyone else like this little chip Yes. > or am I just strange? No. One day I'll implement a CDC device with it, just to see how well it works. Also note: You can do USB 1.1 in software only. The USBasp AVR programmer does it. See: http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/ It works well and is faster then my Atmel AVR Dragon. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 02:01:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 00:01:34 -0700 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <20120820084104.d1370718.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: , <50316485.23968.2CFBE16@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120820084104.d1370718.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50317E5E.4548.334B5ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2012 at 8:41, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Also note: You can do USB 1.1 in software only. The USBasp AVR > programmer does it. See: http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/ It works well > and is faster then my Atmel AVR Dragon. -- Looks like a nice rainy-day project. I've got a bunch of Mega8's sitting around waiting for a project. Also note the V-USB projects. Even has USB in an 8-pin ATTiny AVR. http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html The AT90USB162 is USB 2.0. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 20 02:02:40 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 02:02:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <5031C22E.8000604@gorge.net> References: <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> <5031C22E.8000604@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Aug 2012, jimpdavis wrote: > Scott Quinn wrote: >> From: Paul Anderson >> >>> I'd keep it as a typewriter. They're great machines. >> >> Seconded. The Selectric (Correcting Selectric II) is my favorite >> typewriter. A bit too heavy to be considered portable, but solid and >> great feel. >> >> You'd need to recreate all of the drive and decode mechanism - it >> wouldn't be worth it unless you were very interested in recreating a >> Selectric Terminal Typewriter rather than just having a printing >> terminal. > > Hunter Thompson carried one. If you can pick it up or it has a handle, > it's portable. Even if it can weigh in excess of 70lbs? http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/alf/ps2_60041/ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Aug 20 02:08:42 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 03:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun 1 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <50318D65.3050505@comcast.net> References: <50318D65.3050505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201208200708.DAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Is the Sun 2 Keyboard a serial keyboard? Depends on what you mean by "Sun 2 Keyboard". There's a keyboard with mushy feel and a case which is a largeish wedge, kind of like a type-3 only with the front brought further out and made of metal instead of plastic. I'd call it a type 2. It's been a while, but as I recall, they had a coiled cable with an RJ-style plug on the host end, which plugged into a small adapter which plugged into a DA-15 on the host. (The mouse also plugged into this adapter.) However, it's possible that I'm remembering using them with Sun-3 CPUs; our Sun-2s were CPU-board-swap upgraded to Sun-3s fairly early in our use of them. This is relevant because it could be that on the Sun-2s the keyboard and mouse cables plugged directly into something, with the adapters existing only to connect them to the DA15s the Sun-3s use. I think that adapter was completely passive, being just connectors and wiring. If so, those keyboards must have been serial, because the Sun-3 keyboard interface is. (With suitable voltage-level shifters, and an external +5V supply, you can use such keyboards on a bog-standard serial port; I have a type-3 in live use that way now.) Of course, this is all predicated on your "Sun 2 Keyboard" being what I think of as a type-2.... > If not, any ideas on where to get a serial keyboard. Sun keyboards up through the type-5 and thereabouts - pretty much, anything that can be used with Suns from the Sun-3 days up to the end of the SBus era - are all serial, though that's not to say they're compatible enough to Just Work for you; they may speak the wrong protocol, or may need various glue, either passive adapters or something more elaborate.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 02:35:58 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:35:58 +0100 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <5031627A.26487.2C7C224@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> <5031627A.26487.2C7C224@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5031E8DE.4010705@gmail.com> On 20/08/2012 06:02, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Aug 2012 at 22:41, Scott Quinn wrote: > > >> Seconded. The Selectric (Correcting Selectric II) is my favorite >> typewriter. A bit too heavy to be considered portable, but solid and >> great feel. > I have one of those (in green) wide-carriage from UC Berkeley > surplus. Anyone know how to replace the motor drive belt without > ending up with lots of bits and pieces strewn about? If there's an > easy way, I don't see it. > > --Chuck > There are a series of Selectric repair videos on Youtube and a Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golfballtypewritershop/ which has PDF s of parts of the service manuals. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Aug 20 02:40:57 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:40:57 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120820074056.GA7105@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 06:44:15PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/19/12 6:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >M9301 are the terminator and bootstrap boards right ? > > > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-15-Unibus-16-Bit-Minicomputer-No-Reserve-/390454290276 > > > > > The chassis has been gutted and replaced with something homemade > > > Hope someone doesn't get suckered into thinking it is a computer. Would it be possible to fit another PDP-11 inside that chassis (with suitable PSU) and use part or whole of the frontpanel with it? Say an 11/34? Regards, Pontus. From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 20 03:00:14 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:00:14 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120820074056.GA7105@Update.UU.SE> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> <20120820074056.GA7105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <2f2a90013ac3e40116741f9b2f4e13c9.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 06:44:15PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 8/19/12 6:25 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >M9301 are the terminator and bootstrap boards right ? >> > >> >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-15-Unibus-16-Bit-Minicomputer-No-Reserve-/390454290276 >> > >> > >> The chassis has been gutted and replaced with something homemade >> >> >> Hope someone doesn't get suckered into thinking it is a computer. > > Would it be possible to fit another PDP-11 inside that chassis (with > suitable PSU) and use part or whole of the frontpanel with it? Say an > 11/34? > > Regards, > Pontus. > Well, with some extensive rewiring you might be able to use some switches. This front-panel actually uses one slot of a DD11-CK backplane, which can be seen in one of the pictures (although it is not directly obvious). Most other operator consoles of the PDP-11 line are sub-assemblies mounted on the BA11 box, like the 11/40(35), 11/45(50,55) and 11/70. The 11/20 is (afaik) similar in that respect to the 11/15. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Aug 20 03:31:13 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:31:13 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: <502D57D4.2080105@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 16, 12 10:28:04 pm Message-ID: <673B74EA57EA499D85101ADB3DDDB29C@MailBox> It's just occurred to me that when you have a running system maybe what it is doing is as important as the fact that it runs. This together with a few recent remarks about registering classic systems and the existence of HECNet gives me an idea. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ????? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 17 August 2012 20:25 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: To all with interest in preservation > I completely agree. Seeing and hearing a Spitfire flying around above > you adds a whole new dimension to seeing a stationary Spitfire in a > museum. Recently I went with two of my sons to see the exhibition "Three > tons of minicomputers - 40 years with computers in the service of > Uppsala University". Both of them are very good programmers and > interested in computing, and they found the exhibition very interesting. > However, if the exhibits had been running, and they could have heard a > line printer or an ASR-33 printing, seen and heard a disk pack seeking, > seen the blinkenlights etc, it would have given them a much better idea > of what computing was like 40 years ago. That wasn't possible as the > exhibition was only a temporary one, but had it been permanent, I I don't get that. Assuming the ART33 was maintained in running condtion, that the lubrication points had bee attended to, etc, it doesn't take much to set it up in a temporaray location and run it at least in local mode. Ditto for most minicomputers. I've taken such things to talks that I've given and have powered them up and run them during said talk. And you don't get much more 'temporary; than that... -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 20 03:45:21 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 01:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel Message-ID: I'm still searching for a pdp-11/70 front panel bezel. Does anyone have a spare? Does anyone know what the part number is for this thing? That would be very helpful. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 03:56:01 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:56:01 +1000 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 6:45 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm still searching for a pdp-11/70 front panel bezel. Does anyone have a > spare? Does anyone know what the part number is for this thing? That would > be very helpful. groan...a me too posting - I need one too please. Anyone know why the bezel is left behind? they look as though they screwed on, were they prized as frames for artwork perhaps? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 08:04:14 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 06:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions Message-ID: <1345467854.70643.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> anyone have a spare processor card, 68k or other From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 20 09:43:57 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:43:57 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120820074056.GA7105@Update.UU.SE> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> <20120820074056.GA7105@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <50324D2D.5010904@bitsavers.org> On 8/20/12 12:40 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Would it be possible to fit another PDP-11 inside that chassis The first generation PDP11 box really isn't what you want to hack on. The backplane is on the TOP (the cards point down) and it is too narrow for normal hex-width cards. The power also plugs into the backplane instead of being connected on the wire-wrap side. If you ever see a wide Unibus card with a big notch taken out of one edge, it was designed for this box, because the fans protrude over the Unibus backplane. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 20 09:45:24 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:45:24 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50324D84.1050807@bitsavers.org> On 8/20/12 1:45 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I'm still searching for a pdp-11/70 front panel bezel. The casting is the same for the 35/40/45/55 and 70. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 20 09:48:26 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:48:26 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> On 8/20/12 1:56 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 6:45 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> I'm still searching for a pdp-11/70 front panel bezel. Does anyone have a >> spare? Does anyone know what the part number is for this thing? That would >> be very helpful. > > groan...a me too posting - I need one too please. > > Anyone know why the bezel is left behind? Many machines were converted to use the remote diagnostic panel (KY11-R). You might have some luck finding one of those, which has pretty low value to collectors, just to get the bezel back. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 10:02:56 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:02:56 +0200 Subject: Free to any home: DEClaser 2000 font cartridges Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I have an original box with 7 DEClaser 2000 ROM cartridges: 1 x LNXXU-PS : PostScript Program/Fonts 3 x LNXX-CA : C.G. Times 3 x DEClaser 2150/2250 NVR Enable Card 1 x User guide for the PostScript card. If you want it, you can have it for the cost of shipping it from the Netherlands. Please claim it before the end of the week, or it'll go in the bin. Camiel. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 10:23:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:23:50 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Many machines were converted to use the remote diagnostic panel (KY11-R). > You might have some luck finding one of those, which has pretty low > value to collectors, just to get the bezel back. I'm trying to go the other way... I have two 11/70s with the remote diagnostic panel, and a partially-stripped 11/70 full front panel PCB (it was free, but missing all the switches as part of a two-into-one repair by someone else (who is on this list ;-)). It's good to hear the cast bezel is the same. I'd still need to either find/produce switch covers and find the C&K switches with the square mounting clips (not the common variety) to restore it. So I've been following this discussion to see what to do with my own system. Thanks! -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 11:01:47 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:01:47 -0700 Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <201208200125.q7K1PG4E14483508@floodgap.com> References: <201208200125.q7K1PG4E14483508@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >> There is the HPDrive emulator if you don't have one. >> >> http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ > > Does that work with the HP 9000 series? I don't recognize any of the > models. My 9000/350 has a 6000/670H connected, which was supposed to > replace the 793x/796x type hard disks, and it doesn't seem to support > those either. If the drive type you want to emulate is not already in the list it appears that you can add a definition for a new type type to the hpdrive.ini defintion file. I haven't tried using the HPDrive emulator with anything but my HP-86B so far. It seems to work well for that. Some day I'll have to try using it with my HP-1000 2117F and A900. C:\hpdrive-40beta4>hpdrive.exe -presets Device presets --------------------------------------------------- 9895 HP9895A 8" 1.15M AMIGO floppy drive 82901 HP82901 5.25" 270K AMIGO floppy drive 9121 HP9121 3.5" 270K AMIGO floppy drive 9134A HP9134A 4.8M AMIGO hard drive 9134B HP9134B 9.6M AMIGO hard drive 9134XV HP9134XV 14.5M AMIGO hard drive 7910 HP7910 5.25" 12M AMIGO Winchester drive 7905 HP7905 15M AMIGO (MAC) hard drive 7906 HP7906 19M AMIGO (MAC) hard drive 7920 HP7920 48M AMIGO (MAC) hard drive 7925 HP7925 116M AMIGO (MAC)hard drive 7906H HP7906 19M AMIGO (ICD) hard drive 7920H HP7920 48M AMIGO (ICD) hard drive 7925H HP7925 116M AMIGO (ICD) hard drive 7970 HP7970E magnetic tape drive 7974 HP7974A magnetic tape drive 7976 HP7976A magnetic tape drive 7978 HP7978A magnetic tape drive 7979 HP7979A magnetic tape drive 7980 HP7980A magnetic tape drive 9122 HP9122 dual 3.5" 630K SS/80 floppy drive 9127A HP9127A 370K 5.25" SS/80 floppy drive 9134D HP9134D 15M SS/80 Winchester drive 9134H HP9134H 20M SS/80 Winchester drive 9134L HP9134L 40M SS/80 Winchester drive 9153B HP9153B 9.5M SS/80 Winchester drive 9153C HP9153C 38M SS/80 Winchester drive 9154B HP9154B 19M SS/80 Winchester drive 7908 HP7908 17M CS/80 hard drive 7911 HP7911 28M CS/80 hard drive 7912 HP7912 66M CS/80 hard drive 7914 HP7914 132M CS/80 hard drive 7937A HP7937A 544M CS/80 hard drive 7941 HP7941 24M CS/80 hard drive 7945 HP7945 55M CS/80 hard drive 7957A HP7957A 78M CS/80 hard drive 7958A HP7958A 152M CS/80 hard drive 7957B HP7957B 81M CS/80 hard drive 7958B HP7958B 152M CS/80 hard drive 7959B HP7959B 304M CS/80 hard drive 7963B HP7963B 304M CS/80 hard drive C2200 HPC2200A 335M CS/80 hard drive C2202 HPC2202A 670M CS/80 hard drive C2203 HPC2203A 670M CS/80 hard drive 9144-150 HP9144 16M CS/80 tape drive 9144-600 HP9144 64M CS/80 tape drive 9145-150 HP9145 32M CS/80 tape drive 9145-600 HP9145 128M CS/80 tape drive 9133D HP9133D SS/80 15M hard + 630K floppy drive 9133H HP9133H SS/80 20M hard + 630K floppy drive 9133L HP9133L SS/80 40M hard + 630K floppy drive 7942-150 HP7942 CS/80 24M hard + 16M tape drive 7942-600 HP7942 CS/80 24M hard + 64M tape drive 7946-150 HP7945 CS/80 55M hard + 16M tape drive 7946-600 HP7945 CS/80 55M hard + 64M tape drive From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 20 11:24:21 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:24:21 -0600 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: References: <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> <5031C22E.8000604@gorge.net> Message-ID: <503264B5.8000504@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/20/2012 1:02 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >> Hunter Thompson carried one. If you can pick it up or it has a handle, >> it's portable. > > Even if it can weigh in excess of 70lbs? Anything that fits into the back of small Japanese car is *Portable* acording to this list! Anything bigger is a Mini-computer. Ben. From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Aug 20 11:40:55 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:40:55 -0400 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <503264B5.8000504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> <5031C22E.8000604@gorge.net> <503264B5.8000504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <669E9B53-A16C-4CF8-AE87-178F4C59E74F@me.com> Nobody said it was *easily portable*:) -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-20, at 12:24 PM, ben wrote: > On 8/20/2012 1:02 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >>> Hunter Thompson carried one. If you can pick it up or it has a handle, >>> it's portable. >> >> Even if it can weigh in excess of 70lbs? > > Anything that fits into the back of small Japanese car is *Portable* acording > to this list! Anything bigger is a Mini-computer. > Ben. > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 20 11:51:33 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:51:33 -0700 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50317E5E.4548.334B5ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <50316485.23968.2CFBE16@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120820084104.d1370718.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50317E5E.4548.334B5ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50326B15.7070009@brouhaha.com> On 20 Aug 2012 at 8:41, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Also note: You can do USB 1.1 in software only. The USBasp AVR > programmer does it. See: http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/ It works well > and is faster then my Atmel AVR Dragon. -- On 08/20/2012 12:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Looks like a nice rainy-day project. I've got a bunch of Mega8's > sitting around waiting for a project. Also note the V-USB projects. > Even has USB in an 8-pin ATTiny AVR. > http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html The AT90USB162 is USB > 2.0. --Chuck Note that the bit-banging USB 1.1 is low speed (1.5 Mbps) only. There are several limitations on low-speed devices. They may not use more than two endpoints other than the control endpoint, and they may not use payloads larger than 8 bytes in control or interrupt transfers. The USB specification prohibits use of standard detachable cables with low-speed devices, because they exceed the maximum allowable cable length and capacitive load for low-speed (Sections 6.4.1 through 6.4.4 of the USB 1.1 and 2.0 specs). Normally low-speed devices use captive cables. Vendor-unique detachable cables may be used; this means that they can't use the normal USB B connector. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 12:22:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:22:22 -0700 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50326B15.7070009@brouhaha.com> References: , <50317E5E.4548.334B5ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <50326B15.7070009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50320FDE.23628.5F3E14@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2012 at 9:51, Eric Smith wrote: > The USB specification prohibits use of standard detachable cables with > low-speed devices, because they exceed the maximum allowable cable > length and capacitive load for low-speed (Sections 6.4.1 through 6.4.4 > of the USB 1.1 and 2.0 specs). Normally low-speed devices use captive > cables. Vendor-unique detachable cables may be used; this means that > they can't use the normal USB B connector. Of course, and I believe that the V-USB site makes this very clear. I've got a carton of early USB HID peripherals with non-detachable cables. They all use the Intel N82930A3 controller (68 pin PLCC) No modern (i.e. 2000-present) system even sees the things--that's an indication of how far USB has come. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 13:22:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:22:50 -0700 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <5031E8DE.4010705@gmail.com> References: , <5031627A.26487.2C7C224@cclist.sydex.com>, <5031E8DE.4010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50321E0A.25926.969A61@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2012 at 8:35, Dave Wade wrote: > There are a series of Selectric repair videos on Youtube and a Yahoo > group > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golfballtypewritershop/ > > which has PDF s of parts of the service manuals. Great! I found the manual I needed in the group's files. It's not a simple job, but at least I have a service manual if I mess up too badly. Lot of nice stuff there, including material for Selectric mag card and memory typewriters, as well as an article for converting an I/O Selectric for use with a Commodore PET. Thanks again, Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 20 13:45:22 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:45:22 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <50324D2D.5010904@bitsavers.org> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <50319213.6070002@gmail.com> <5031966F.70204@bitsavers.org> <20120820074056.GA7105@Update.UU.SE> <50324D2D.5010904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503285C2.7050304@jwsss.com> I'm hoping to snipe it as it is the same as my PDP-11 of the unibus variety. Good spare parts. I'm not hopeful, as the front panel mee-mees will probably grab it for way more than my current collection budge will allow. I think a full /15 /20 recently was listed or may still be as well, and that guy would be smart to buy this one for parts. thanks jim On 8/20/2012 7:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Would it be possible to fit another PDP-11 inside that chassis From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 20 13:54:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <503264B5.8000504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8CF4C94775F7B0C-1450-9A490@webmail-m146.sysops.aol.com> <5031C22E.8000604@gorge.net> <503264B5.8000504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20120820115217.G89480@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012, ben wrote: > Anything that fits into the back of small Japanese car is *Portable* > acording > to this list! Anything bigger is a Mini-computer. One of the magazines (PC?) reprinted a Japanese ad showing a well-known Sumu wrestler with a luggable on his shoulder, and a comment about him demonstrating the portability of it. The magazine added that he could demonstrate the portability of a Subaru. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 20 14:07:24 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:07:24 -0700 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50320FDE.23628.5F3E14@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <50317E5E.4548.334B5ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <50326B15.7070009@brouhaha.com> <50320FDE.23628.5F3E14@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50328AEC.5060401@brouhaha.com> On 08/20/2012 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a carton of early USB HID peripherals with non-detachable > cables. They all use the Intel N82930A3 controller (68 pin PLCC) No > modern (i.e. 2000-present) system even sees the things--that's an > indication of how far USB has come. --Chuck To me, that's an indication that the things had badly written firmware or something. There's no reason that low-speed USB 1.0 HID devices shouldn't work on a current USB 2.0 or 3.0 system. It would be interesting to put such a device on a modern system with a USB analyzer (hardware, not software) and see what's going wrong. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 14:04:55 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:04:55 -0700 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50320FDE.23628.5F3E14@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50317E5E.4548.334B5ED@cclist.sydex.com> <50326B15.7070009@brouhaha.com> <50320FDE.23628.5F3E14@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've got a carton of early USB HID peripherals with non-detachable > cables. They all use the Intel N82930A3 controller (68 pin PLCC) No > modern (i.e. 2000-present) system even sees the things--that's an > indication of how far USB has come. > The Intel 82930 USB device controller (80251 microcontroller core) itself shouldn't be the issue. Most likely a device firmware issue. Any chance your carton of devices are Toshiba multimedia monitor controls? Those were some of the earliest USB device available and I believe they started shipping prior to the initial release of Windows 95 USB support. No real surprise that those aren't the most compatible devices around. -Glen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 13:27:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:27:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Aug 19, 12 07:00:59 pm Message-ID: [External USB - Async converter cable] > > That way, users that prefer USB and/or have modern PCbs can just plug in > > and go. I can make a level shifter, plug that in, and conenct said device > > to an RS232 port. Bust of all worlds... > > I think that's a fine idea, but you might be surprised at how many of > our customers balk at even that. You don;'t have to tell _that_ sort of customer. Just use an odd connector (so that they won't find anything else to plug in [1]) and tell them to use the supplied cable to conenct it to their USB host. Put the real infroamtion in a technical manual... [1] Although I never cease to be amazed by what people manage to plug into the wrong conenctors. Or indeed plug in upside-down. > > Then again, you might not be all that surprised. It does depeect on the sort of customers I guess... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 13:33:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:33:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Aug 19, 12 07:15:46 pm Message-ID: > > On Aug 19, 2012, at 2:04 AM, Mouse wrote: > > >> In fact, for what it was designed to do, it works amazingly well. > >> It's not even "new" anymore, so we can't use that excuse. > > > > The biggest problem I have with it is that it requires a full-fledged > > CPU or a comparable amount of custom silicon to speak at all - it is > > not amenable to "throw together a breadboard lashup from discretes" > > implementations. Of course, this is a purely personal point of view; > > there's only one other person here I'm reasonably sure will agree with > > it, that being tony. That is cetainly one of my main objections to USB in a lot of cases -- it's over-complex for the job in hand. > > Well, not the only one. That's my primary issue with USB, as it is > with PCI. But I do recognize that once speeds get into the tens > of MHz, things rapidly fall out of the "hobbyist" range, so much Sure _if you need that sort of data throughput_. I didn't complain about the USB interface on the Diskferret becuase the amount of data to transfer was large, and USB was about as simple/complex as any other interface which could transfoer that data i na reasonable time. But when you have soemthing that doesn't send large amounts of data, then USB _is_ over complex. There are simpler interfaces that will do the job as well. I do find the idea of building-in a USB to async serial IC to be mildly unpleasant. My point being that the async interface can clearly handle the data throughput _and it is likely to be able to be used with many other types of computer. It's easy to convert a USB host to connect to an Async peripehral (the FTDI IC being high up the list...) it's much, much, harder to do the reverse. I hate designs that make things deliberately difficult. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 13:38:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:38:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <50317443.4040106@gorge.net> from "jimpdavis" at Aug 19, 12 04:18:27 pm Message-ID: > > I have a HP 9000/300 68000 with an extra processor card. > I was surprised when I pulled the processor card from the machine and > discovered a 68030 CPU. > I was shocked I didn't remember that card. > Looking for software, I checked bitsavers, but only located a Pascal > compiler. The best site IMHO for old HP desktop machines is the Australian HP Museum site, http://wwww.hpmusuem.net/ I have no idea what software is avaialbel there, but I would think you'd find pascal and BASIC at least. > Does this machine have any interesting (O/S) software freely available? > Are their any list members playing with this machine? Alas it's too modern for me. The HP9000/200 machines are interesting to me, but the 300 series have far too many custom ICs in them. Although there are data sheets for a couple of them on bitsavers. > Is it possible to boot from the GPIB? Should be. You need an HP disk unit, I would guess CS/80 or SS/80. Finding one of those is something of a problem now. They do turn up on E-bay, but often seen to have ridiculous prices. > I'm behind a dial-up wall and I was hoping to save some bandwidth before > downloading the manuals. I don;t know where you are, but when I have this sort of problem I spend an hourt or two in a local internet cafe.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 13:46:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:46:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <201208200125.q7K1PG4E14483508@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Aug 19, 12 06:25:15 pm Message-ID: > > There is the HPDrive emulator if you don't have one. > > > > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ > > Does that work with the HP 9000 series? I don't recognize any of the Well, it'll work in that neither end will emit magic smoke. But whether it does anything useful depends on the software running on the 9000. As I understand it, the earliest HPIB drive units (mostly floppies, but the HP9133V ans XV hard drives are included too) used a command set called 'Amigo' Later untis used either CS/80 (Command Set 80) or SS/80 (Sub Set 80). THey are very different. Unfortuantely that hpdrive program is only supplied as a binary for a proprietary OS, so it's not something I'ev looked at. Making an HPIB 'drive' using flash memory cards (or USB sticks), a microcontroller, et is one of those projects that gets talked about here from time to time but which nobody has ever doen. It certainly would be useful. > models. My 9000/350 has a 6000/670H connected, which was supposed to > replace the 793x/796x type hard disks, and it doesn't seem to support > those either. > > I do have a 9122 *floppy* disk, and it does seem to support the 9121, > so that's probably close enough for *floppies.* Not so. IIRC the 9121 is Amigo, the 9122 (and 9123 [1]) is SS/80. [1] This is a special drive unit for the HP150-II. It has no internal PSU, it takes power from a special DIN socket on the HP150-II. Electronciing it's quite different otother HP drives, logically it's an 9122 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 14:01:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:01:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <5031B4E6.4090207@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 19, 12 11:54:14 pm Message-ID: > > A few weeks abck I was given a rather nice 'Black Box' RS232 tester. I > > don't mean a breakout box, although one of those came with it. It mean > > oen of those things that grabes the data on the TxD and RxD lines, grabs > > the modem control lines at the same time, and so on. I was told that > > nobody uses RS232 any more. But I can certainly use it... > > Well...whoever told you that is a moron, plain and simple. He ws jsut repoprting what he was told when it was given to him. He is most certianly not a moron, he's a darn good embedded systems programmer. He had no use for it (which actually suprised me), but he knew I'd use it... FWIW. Black Box still sell the thing (DT200A) at a very high prise... Things I didn't mention about it. It's got a Dallas RTC chip in it. When I got it. There are 2 RS232 connectors, male and female, wired pin-pin (alas it can't intercept and modify the data). Pins 2 and 3 are monitored by tehe 2 channels of the Z8530, there's a relay [1] that conencts a driver to pin 2, so the thing can run as a terminal. There's another DB25 socket on the other side of hte case. It's wired -- mostly -- as a PC parallel port, you can sue thing unti to test parallel printers or use such a printer to log the incoming data. Note I said 'mostly'. One pin is an RS3-level output from one of th Z180's serial ports, another pin is used as a serial input. This lets you control the thing remotley. There was supposed to be an adapter included with it for this (it's not just wires, there's a resistor -- I guess 4k7 -- in series with the incloming data line). I didn't get it, but I soon figured it out. [1] There are 4 relays on the PCB. They are bistable latching relays controleld by a '374 chip, each relay coil is tied between 2 of the Q pins of said chip, so you can energise it either way round to flip the relay one way or the other. The 4 rleays control ; Main power on/off ; TxD output to Rs232 pin ; TxClock output to RS232 pin (used in syncrhonous modes) ; RTS on. There is one bit of poor design IMHO. The firmware allows you to select a lot of bauyd rates, includign some obscure ones that I would never need, but it on;y goes down to 75 baud. And the thing can handle 5 bit Baudot data (well, probably not true Baudot, but you know what I mean). Having 50 baud or 45.45 baud would be useful for that. > > > ObCC. That unit contains a Z180 CPU, a Z8530 serial chip (yes it handles > > synchronous data too), 128K bytes of RAM, a 64K byte PEROM, and a bit of > > TTL. SO I guess it's a classic computer. > > Oh that could even be repurposed for even more fun things! It certianly could. The only thing I don't have data on is the existing firmware. ALl the ICs are standard, the LCD is a standard module, etc. But it's quite useful to me in its present form. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 14:07:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:07:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/15 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <2f2a90013ac3e40116741f9b2f4e13c9.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "E. Groenenberg" at Aug 20, 12 10:00:14 am Message-ID: > Well, with some extensive rewiring you might be able to use some switches. > This front-panel actually uses one slot of a DD11-CK backplane, which can > be seen in one of the pictures (although it is not directly obvious). > Most other operator consoles of the PDP-11 line are sub-assemblies > mounted on the BA11 box, like the 11/40(35), 11/45(50,55) and 11/70. > The 11/20 is (afaik) similar in that respect to the 11/15. Arem't the 11/15 and 11/20 the same machine? The difference being what came with it when it was origianlly purchased? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 20 14:04:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:04:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <5031627A.26487.2C7C224@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 19, 12 10:02:34 pm Message-ID: > surplus. Anyone know how to replace the motor drive belt without > ending up with lots of bits and pieces strewn about? If there's an > easy way, I don't see it. I've never done it (not having a Selectric :-() but I am told you did ahve to dismatle half the machine to remove the mainsahft far enough to get the new belt in. I beleive it was comon practice for IBM CEs to put 2 belts round the shaft and then tape one ot the side plate out of the way. That way, next time it failed they could untape the 'spare' and hook it onto the motor pulley. Of course the enxt time they had to do the whole job. -tony From abs at absd.org Mon Aug 20 15:31:25 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:31:25 +0100 Subject: Sun 1 Computer LIVES!!! In-Reply-To: <128919934-1345409770-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1004110340-@b28.c15.bise6.blackberry> References: <128919934-1345409770-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1004110340-@b28.c15.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On 19 August 2012 21:56, wrote: > Not sure of the memory, will need to look that up. I wonder what the memory requirements are for early SunOS versions? - certainly SunOS 4 ran in 4M on a sun3/50, but it didn't really have a huge amount of headroom left :) If you do find some more memory & are inclined I'd love to see what NetBSD makes of the machine :-p > I do have a sun 2 keyboard, I wonder if it is a possibility to connect it to the bwtwo video board exclusively for the keyboard use, while maintaining the bwone video board at the same time for video use. Theoretically it must be possible - certainly most sun's were happy setting the console display to a bitmapped display and keyboard to a serial (terminal). The the only question is does the PROM support this particular variant... From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 20 15:57:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:57:41 -0400 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5032A4C5.1090700@neurotica.com> On 08/20/2012 03:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> A few weeks abck I was given a rather nice 'Black Box' RS232 tester. I >>> don't mean a breakout box, although one of those came with it. It mean >>> oen of those things that grabes the data on the TxD and RxD lines, grabs >>> the modem control lines at the same time, and so on. I was told that >>> nobody uses RS232 any more. But I can certainly use it... >> >> Well...whoever told you that is a moron, plain and simple. > > He ws jsut repoprting what he was told when it was given to him. He is > most certianly not a moron, he's a darn good embedded systems programmer. > He had no use for it (which actually suprised me), but he knew I'd use it... Embedded systems is where RS232 is used the most! I stand by my earlier assertion. ;) The second runner up is networking; All (or very nearly all) high-end networking hardware uses RS232 for consoles. Real network administrators will not take kindly to the removal of their console ports...which is why they're still there. > FWIW. Black Box still sell the thing (DT200A) at a very high prise... > > Things I didn't mention about it. It's got a Dallas RTC chip in it. When > I got it. There are 2 RS232 connectors, male and female, wired pin-pin > (alas it can't intercept and modify the data). Pins 2 and 3 are monitored > by tehe 2 channels of the Z8530, there's a relay [1] that conencts a > driver to pin 2, so the thing can run as a terminal. There's another DB25 > socket on the other side of hte case. It's wired -- mostly -- as a PC > parallel port, you can sue thing unti to test parallel printers or use > such a printer to log the incoming data. Note I said 'mostly'. One pin is > an RS3-level output from one of th Z180's serial ports, another pin is > used as a serial input. This lets you control the thing remotley. There > was supposed to be an adapter included with it for this (it's not just > wires, there's a resistor -- I guess 4k7 -- in series with the incloming > data line). I didn't get it, but I soon figured it out. > > [1] There are 4 relays on the PCB. They are bistable latching relays > controleld by a '374 chip, each relay coil is tied between 2 of the Q > pins of said chip, so you can energise it either way round to flip the > relay one way or the other. The 4 rleays control ; Main power on/off ; > TxD output to Rs232 pin ; TxClock output to RS232 pin (used in > syncrhonous modes) ; RTS on. > > There is one bit of poor design IMHO. The firmware allows you to select a > lot of bauyd rates, includign some obscure ones that I would never need, > but it on;y goes down to 75 baud. And the thing can handle 5 bit Baudot > data (well, probably not true Baudot, but you know what I mean). Having > 50 baud or 45.45 baud would be useful for that. It certainly does sound like a neat box! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Aug 20 16:23:11 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:23:11 +0100 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CA7475A1FC34430B0773DA167743CF2@ANTONIOPC> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 13 August 2012 19:24 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: To all with interest in preservation > > Having seen an R-pi at the > weekend, I know hwich out of that and a PDP11 (saY) I'd > rather have to > keep running. Having installed my (currently case-less) R-Pi on top of the Sun U5, VAX 4K and Sun U2 pile, I know it's (non-existent) rack won't crush my other three machines. It's also going to consume virtually no power so I can leave it running 24x7 with no issues. If I can find the time to actually spare to recover the VAX 4K's system disk, it's also (probably) going to be much quicker to cluster it to a simulated VAX on the R-Pi and fix it up that way. (I could use a VAX in the garage to do that but I'd have to get it out first and set it up: given that the bottleneck is the lack of "tuits" rather than hardware and that the end goal is to have the real VAX running, I'm going to claim that this is fine :-)). Briefly looking at the R-Pi, it at least party meets your goals of maintainable. The hardware schematics are online, the parts are (at least mostly available): the parenthetical qualification is because I don't know whether the broadcom chip is available (I guess not ine onesies ...). I also don't have the kit here to swap that one out. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 16:40:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 14:40:59 -0700 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: References: , <50320FDE.23628.5F3E14@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <50324C7B.23053.14C039B@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2012 at 12:04, Glen Slick wrote: > The Intel 82930 USB device controller (80251 microcontroller core) > itself shouldn't be the issue. Most likely a device firmware issue. > Any chance your carton of devices are Toshiba multimedia monitor > controls? Those were some of the earliest USB device available and I > believe they started shipping prior to the initial release of Windows > 95 USB support. No real surprise that those aren't the most > compatible devices around. Indeed they are, complete with LCD display and volume control knob. Firmware's in an OTP 27C256 soldered-in EPROM. Intended for use on the Infinia 7200. Somewhere I have the documentation for the Intel devkit that used the 82930, but I doubt that the devkit would be recognized either. I got then NOS cheap mostly for the LCD displays. Academic now, since there are better choices, so they're just moldering away. I do have an Infinia 7230, but the HID peripheral for those is different and the one for the 7200 isn't recognized or detected. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 16:50:54 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 14:50:54 -0700 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <20120820115217.G89480@shell.lmi.net> References: , <503264B5.8000504@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20120820115217.G89480@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50324ECE.17311.1551A72@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2012 at 11:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > One of the magazines (PC?) reprinted a Japanese ad showing a > well-known Sumu wrestler with a luggable on his shoulder, and a > comment about him demonstrating the portability of it. The magazine > added that he could demonstrate the portability of a Subaru. This reminds me of the time an ad shot was done for the F85. The marketing people recruited one of their own for the photoshoot--a stunningly attractive tall blonde. It was required that she hoist the machine (I haven't checked recently but it weighs in somewhere around 50 lbs.) to slightly above waist-level, pause and SMILE. If any female in the company could do this, she could. The photo people had to airbrush the veins standing out in her neck, however... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 20 16:53:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 14:53:07 -0700 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: References: <5031627A.26487.2C7C224@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 19, 12 10:02:34 pm, Message-ID: <50324F53.6430.157219D@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2012 at 20:04, Tony Duell wrote: > I've never done it (not having a Selectric :-() but I am told you did > ahve to dismatle half the machine to remove the mainsahft far enough > to get the new belt in. I beleive it was comon practice for IBM CEs to > put 2 belts round the shaft and then tape one ot the side plate out of > the way. That way, next time it failed they could untape the 'spare' > and hook it onto the motor pulley. Of course the enxt time they had to > do the whole job. >From the service manual, that is indeed the case. Further, you need to mark the positions of the various gears attached to the mainshaft, lest you disrupt the timing. That bit about an extra belt is very useful. I may use it when I've goten my courage up... --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 17:00:00 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:00:00 -0700 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50324C7B.23053.14C039B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50320FDE.23628.5F3E14@cclist.sydex.com> <50324C7B.23053.14C039B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2012 2:43 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > Somewhere I have the documentation for the Intel devkit that used the > 82930, but I doubt that the devkit would be recognized either. > I have a few of the Intel 82930 development boards from the ~1995 timeframe. I never used the Intel development software or the RISM monitor that came with them. I just wrote my own firmware in 80251 assembly. HID mouse connected to a serial mouse and HID keyboard connected to a PS/2 keyboard. Plus some loopback firmware for test purposes. Worked fine on Windows 8 the last time I tried it. -Glen From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 20 17:17:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <50324F53.6430.157219D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5031627A.26487.2C7C224@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 19, 12 10:02:34 pm, <50324F53.6430.157219D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120820151734.P92510@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That bit about an extra belt is very useful. I may use it when I've > goten my courage up... How many belts can fit? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 17:48:07 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:48:07 -0500 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: speaking of the 11/70 look whars poped up on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-70-Remote-Diagnostic-Panel-complete-kit-PDP-VAX-/280946817632?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4169bc3a60 On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Many machines were converted to use the remote diagnostic panel (KY11-R). > > You might have some luck finding one of those, which has pretty low > > value to collectors, just to get the bezel back. > > I'm trying to go the other way... I have two 11/70s with the remote > diagnostic panel, and a partially-stripped 11/70 full front panel PCB > (it was free, but missing all the switches as part of a two-into-one > repair by someone else (who is on this list ;-)). It's good to hear > the cast bezel is the same. I'd still need to either find/produce > switch covers and find the C&K switches with the square mounting clips > (not the common variety) to restore it. > > So I've been following this discussion to see what to do with my own > system. Thanks! > > -ethan > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 20 18:15:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:15:52 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> On 08/20/2012 06:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > speaking of the 11/70 look whars poped up on ebay > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-70-Remote-Diagnostic-Panel-complete-kit-PDP-VAX-/280946817632?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4169bc3a60 That's mine. Bid early, bid often! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From grant at stockly.com Mon Aug 20 20:36:12 2012 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:36:12 -0800 Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues In-Reply-To: <20120809184814.GA9585@mail.loomcom.com> References: <1344492987.2484.6.camel@entasis> <5023F8F5.1090501@jwsss.com> <20120809184814.GA9585@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: > > > I'm not sure if it's a copy of Willegal's board as someone else > > Mike is not the only one to have created a replica of the Apple-1 PCB. I sure hope Mike had one of Steve's when he made his. What a horrible job it would be to do it without. :) I stick to photocopying boards I can take apart... Grant From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 20 20:46:24 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:46:24 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5032E870.6020301@att.net> Are you finally finished moving???? That has to be the longest running move I'd ever heard of! Steve On 8/20/2012 7:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/20/2012 06:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> speaking of the 11/70 look whars poped up on ebay >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-70-Remote-Diagnostic-Panel-complete-kit-PDP-VAX-/280946817632?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4169bc3a60 >> > That's mine. Bid early, bid often! > > -Dave > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 20 21:29:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:29:12 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <5032E870.6020301@att.net> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> <5032E870.6020301@att.net> Message-ID: <5032F278.2090801@neurotica.com> On 08/20/2012 09:46 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Are you finally finished moving???? > That has to be the longest running move I'd ever heard of! Not quite. One more truck. The move has been going on for about a year. There have been nine trucks so far; seven 24' liftgate trucks and two 16' non-liftgate. ~50 racks, about a dozen racks' worth of gear for which there are no racks, about a hundred 14" disk packs of various flavors (for CDC9762, 9766, DEC RL01/02, RA60), ~1100 books, 1000+ 9-track magtapes with tape racks, ~25 terminals, ~40 desktop-class computers, a large electronics lab involving four racks of test equipment and lots of bench gear, component stocks comprising many tens of thousands of components. Oh, and a couch. All while working full-time++ on the most demanding job I've had in fifteen years. Here's me, on Interstate 95 one of those road trips, writing firmware on a laptop with a prototype of my new design (the one that just shipped) while my lady drove: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/real-men-write-firmware.jpg ...and here's me debugging hardware on the little table in a hotel room with a portable oscilloscope while stopped for the night, I think in South Carolina: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/real-men-debug-hardware.jpg It has been a very busy year, and I am getting really tired. But I'm happy anyway! (just thought I'd share!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 21:53:16 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:53:16 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <5032F278.2090801@neurotica.com> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> <5032E870.6020301@att.net> <5032F278.2090801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5032F81C.7090306@gmail.com> On 8/20/2012 7:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/real-men-write-firmware.jpg ...and > here's me debugging hardware on the little table in a hotel room with > a portable oscilloscope while stopped for the night, I think in South > Carolina: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/real-men-debug-hardware.jpg It > has been a very busy year, and I am getting really tired. But I'm > happy anyway! (just thought I'd share!) -Dave Real-men rotate their pictures to not cause sudden neck strain to people unfortunate enough to click on their links ;) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 20 21:59:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:59:15 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <5032F81C.7090306@gmail.com> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> <5032E870.6020301@att.net> <5032F278.2090801@neurotica.com> <5032F81C.7090306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5032F983.9090009@neurotica.com> On 08/20/2012 10:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/real-men-write-firmware.jpg ...and >> here's me debugging hardware on the little table in a hotel room with >> a portable oscilloscope while stopped for the night, I think in South >> Carolina: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/real-men-debug-hardware.jpg It >> has been a very busy year, and I am getting really tired. But I'm >> happy anyway! (just thought I'd share!) -Dave > > > Real-men rotate their pictures to not cause sudden neck strain to people > unfortunate enough to click on their links ;) Sorry, that was taken with my phone. Oddly, when I pull them to my desktop machine and display them there, they are not rotated sideways. I've run across this before but dismissed it in a rush. Is there something in the EXIF data or something that conveys rotation? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 22:11:51 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:11:51 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <5032F983.9090009@neurotica.com> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> <5032E870.6020301@att.net> <5032F278.2090801@neurotica.com> <5032F81C.7090306@gmail.com> <5032F983.9090009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5032FC77.9040709@gmail.com> On 8/20/2012 7:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oddly, when I pull them to my desktop machine and display them there, > they are not rotated sideways. I've run across this before but > dismissed it in a rush. Is there something in the EXIF data or > something that conveys rotation? -Dave There is an EXIF rotation tag. You probably need to export it out of a photo application to create a new jpeg with the right orientation. I don't think any browsers care about EXIF. I could be wrong though. It begs the question though. Do you take all your pictures laying down ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 20 22:17:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 23:17:19 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <5032FC77.9040709@gmail.com> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> <5032E870.6020301@att.net> <5032F278.2090801@neurotica.com> <5032F81C.7090306@gmail.com> <5032F983.9090009@neurotica.com> <5032FC77.9040709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5032FDBF.5060303@neurotica.com> On 08/20/2012 11:11 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Oddly, when I pull them to my desktop machine and display them there, >> they are not rotated sideways. I've run across this before but >> dismissed it in a rush. Is there something in the EXIF data or >> something that conveys rotation? -Dave > > There is an EXIF rotation tag. You probably need to export it out of a > photo application to create a new jpeg with the right orientation. I > don't think any browsers care about EXIF. I could be wrong though. It > begs the question though. Do you take all your pictures laying down ? Only the good ones. ;) That picture was likely taken with the phone (an iPhone) held sideways. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 20 22:24:35 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:24:35 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <5032F983.9090009@neurotica.com> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> <5032E870.6020301@att.net> <5032F278.2090801@neurotica.com> <5032F81C.7090306@gmail.com> <5032F983.9090009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5032FF73.7000102@jwsss.com> On 8/20/2012 7:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/20/2012 10:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/real-men-write-firmware.jpg ...and >>> here's me debugging hardware on the little table in a hotel room with >>> a portable oscilloscope while stopped for the night, I think in South >>> Carolina: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/real-men-debug-hardware.jpg It >>> has been a very busy year, and I am getting really tired. But I'm >>> happy anyway! (just thought I'd share!) -Dave >> >> Real-men rotate their pictures to not cause sudden neck strain to people >> unfortunate enough to click on their links ;) > Sorry, that was taken with my phone. > > Oddly, when I pull them to my desktop machine and display them there, > they are not rotated sideways. I've run across this before but > dismissed it in a rush. Is there something in the EXIF data or > something that conveys rotation? > > -Dave > Some viewers may retain the view info, but doesn't change the data. If you rotated it once a year ago and forgot about it,, the info probably is in some small metadata file on your system that is serving up the photos. From nick.allen at comcast.net Mon Aug 20 06:25:53 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 06:25:53 -0500 Subject: Sun 1 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <201208200708.DAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201208200708.DAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50321EC1.8090208@comcast.net> Yes that is exactly the keyboard I have, it is a Large metal keyboard with an RJ45 plug which connects via a cable to a DB15 adapter. If that is in fact a serial keyboard, would it be as simple as using a RJ45 to DB25 adapter? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >/ Is the Sun 2 Keyboard a serial keyboard? / Depends on what you mean by "Sun 2 Keyboard". There's a keyboard with mushy feel and a case which is a largeish wedge, kind of like a type-3 only with the front brought further out and made of metal instead of plastic. I'd call it a type 2. It's been a while, but as I recall, they had a coiled cable with an RJ-style plug on the host end, which plugged into a small adapter which plugged into a DA-15 on the host. (The mouse also plugged into this adapter.) However, it's possible that I'm remembering using them with Sun-3 CPUs; our Sun-2s were CPU-board-swap upgraded to Sun-3s fairly early in our use of them. This is relevant because it could be that on the Sun-2s the keyboard and mouse cables plugged directly into something, with the adapters existing only to connect them to the DA15s the Sun-3s use. I think that adapter was completely passive, being just connectors and wiring. If so, those keyboards must have been serial, because the Sun-3 keyboard interface is. (With suitable voltage-level shifters, and an external +5V supply, you can use such keyboards on a bog-standard serial port; I have a type-3 in live use that way now.) Of course, this is all predicated on your "Sun 2 Keyboard" being what I think of as a type-2.... >/ If not, any ideas on where to get a serial keyboard. / Sun keyboards up through the type-5 and thereabouts - pretty much, anything that can be used with Suns from the Sun-3 days up to the end of the SBus era - are all serial, though that's not to say they're compatible enough to Just Work for you; they may speak the wrong protocol, or may need various glue, either passive adapters or something more elaborate.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Previous message:Sun 1 Keyboard * Next message:Anyone interested in servicing a trs-80 external hard drive * *Messages sorted by:*[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ More information about the cctech mailing list From paul0926 at comcast.net Mon Aug 20 18:52:18 2012 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:52:18 -0600 Subject: Sun 1 Computer LIVES!!! In-Reply-To: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2B982C28-8F41-448E-82FD-0836C97ED366@comcast.net> On Aug 18, 2012, at 9:55 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Thanks everyone (especially Bear) for the wonderful help in reviving my Sun 1 Computer (100u to be exact). > > After extensive CRT repairs, a EPROM reprogram (from Rev N to V100), my Sun is now booting via the Sun2 CPU card and the bwone video board. > > Will upload screenshots tomorrow! > > Next step is to acquire a keyboard and mouse. Anyone have a series 1 Parallel Keyboard and mouse? Or have any ideas on what type of keyboard or mouse would be compatible (if I was able to rewire to DB25). It appears to be a serial protocol, are the old RJ45 keyboards of the same format? Other ideas? > > Thanks a million, you are the best! > > -Nick Bravo, Nick! I look forward to the screen shots. I'd appreciate hearing more about the CRT repairs. I have a bad CRT in a Wang system and am hesitant to tackle it. I'd appreciate any advice you could share. Paul From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 19:32:03 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:32:03 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 19 August 2012 04:55, Nick Allen wrote: >> Thanks everyone (especially Bear) for the wonderful help in reviving my Sun >> 1 Computer (100u to be exact). >> >> After extensive CRT repairs, a EPROM reprogram (from Rev N to V100), my Sun >> is now booting via the Sun2 CPU card and the bwone video board. >> >> Will upload screenshots tomorrow! > > Excellent stuff! Looking forward to more pictures :) > > Out of curiosity how much memory do you have for the system (just > wondering about different OS options :) > >> Next step is to acquire a keyboard and mouse. Anyone have a series 1 >> Parallel Keyboard and mouse? Or have any ideas on what type of keyboard or >> mouse would be compatible (if I was able to rewire to DB25). It appears to >> be a serial protocol, are the old RJ45 keyboards of the same format? Other >> ideas? > > As its a sun2 board with modified firmware maybe it might be possible > to get it talking to a sun2 serial keyboard? My 2/120 has six serial ports, a monochrome connector, and two RJ11 connectors on the back. One RJ11 is for the keyboard and one is for the mouse. I believe that two of the serial ports are on the CPU and four are on the SCSI controller. The keyboard and mouse serial ports are on the monochrome video board. Picture here: https://sites.google.com/site/mthompsonorg/Home/sun-microsystems/sun-2 -- Michael Thompson From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 21 01:27:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (mcguire at neurotica.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 02:27:17 -0400 Subject: Sun 1 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <50321EC1.8090208@comcast.net> References: <201208200708.DAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50321EC1.8090208@comcast.net> Message-ID: "Serial" does not imply "RS232"! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Aug 20, 2012, at 7:25 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Yes that is exactly the keyboard I have, it is a Large metal keyboard with an RJ45 plug which connects via a cable to a DB15 adapter. If that is in fact a serial keyboard, would it be as simple as using a RJ45 to DB25 adapter? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> / Is the Sun 2 Keyboard a serial keyboard? > / > Depends on what you mean by "Sun 2 Keyboard". There's a keyboard with > mushy feel and a case which is a largeish wedge, kind of like a type-3 > only with the front brought further out and made of metal instead of > plastic. > > I'd call it a type 2. It's been a while, but as I recall, they had a > coiled cable with an RJ-style plug on the host end, which plugged into > a small adapter which plugged into a DA-15 on the host. (The mouse > also plugged into this adapter.) However, it's possible that I'm > remembering using them with Sun-3 CPUs; our Sun-2s were CPU-board-swap > upgraded to Sun-3s fairly early in our use of them. This is relevant > because it could be that on the Sun-2s the keyboard and mouse cables > plugged directly into something, with the adapters existing only to > connect them to the DA15s the Sun-3s use. > > I think that adapter was completely passive, being just connectors and > wiring. If so, those keyboards must have been serial, because the > Sun-3 keyboard interface is. (With suitable voltage-level shifters, > and an external +5V supply, you can use such keyboards on a > bog-standard serial port; I have a type-3 in live use that way now.) > > Of course, this is all predicated on your "Sun 2 Keyboard" being what I > think of as a type-2.... > >> / If not, any ideas on where to get a serial keyboard. > / > Sun keyboards up through the type-5 and thereabouts - pretty much, > anything that can be used with Suns from the Sun-3 days up to the end > of the SBus era - are all serial, though that's not to say they're > compatible enough to Just Work for you; they may speak the wrong > protocol, or may need various glue, either passive adapters or > something more elaborate.... > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * Previous message:Sun 1 Keyboard > > * Next message:Anyone interested in servicing a trs-80 external hard > drive > * *Messages sorted by:*[ date ] > [ > thread ] > [ > subject ] > [ > author ] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > More information about the cctech mailing list From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 21 01:38:16 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:38:16 +0200 Subject: designing in USB-serial ports, was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies. In-Reply-To: <50317E5E.4548.334B5ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50316485.23968.2CFBE16@cclist.sydex.com> <20120820084104.d1370718.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50317E5E.4548.334B5ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120821083816.dead5dd2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 00:01:34 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Looks like a nice rainy-day project. Well. You can by them pre build on ebay for 5 EUR. > Also note the V-USB projects. USBasp is based on V-USB... > The AT90USB162 is USB 2.0. Yes, and full-speed wheres V-USB is low-speed. That's the reason why I wan't to play with it. Sometimes the speed translation in USB hubs can cause problems. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 21 02:20:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 03:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun 1 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <50321EC1.8090208@comcast.net> References: <201208200708.DAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50321EC1.8090208@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201208210720.DAA22321@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> [top-posting and no-trimming damage repaired manually -Mouse] >>> Is the Sun 2 Keyboard a serial keyboard? >> Depends on what you mean by "Sun 2 Keyboard". [description] >> I'd call it a type 2. It's been a while, but as I recall, they had >> a coiled cable with an RJ-style plug on the host end, [...] > Yes that is exactly the keyboard I have, it is a Large metal keyboard > with an RJ45 plug which connects via a cable to a DB15 adapter. That's not it, then; the keyboards in question use plugs substantially narrower than RJ45 (or more correctly 8P8C, since it's not RJ45 unless you're putting POTS phone service on the middle pair). I think they were 4P4C, but might have been 6P6C - or more likely 6P4C. I'll assume your "RJ45" was just a (very loose) term for "modular plug/jack of unspecified size", for purposes of this email. > If that is in fact a serial keyboard, would it be as simple as using > a RJ45 to DB25 adapter? For use on a stock RS232 serial port? No. You didn't specify that the adapter be completely passive, but it doesn't matter, because I don't think a serial port can drive enough power to run a Sun keyboard, so at a minimum you would need an external power supply. Also, the adapter would have to have some electroncis in it. Sun keyboards of the sort I'm discussing here use RS232 data rates, character size, and framing, but they use TTL voltage levels, not RS232 voltage levels. You need some electronics. What I find msot convenient is a MAX232 or equivalent and two inverters (and an external 5V supply). A completely passive 4P4C (or 6P4C, whichever it is) to DB25 adapter will not get the voltage levels right. Even if you tie signal ground to 2.5V, the voltage swing isn't enough; IIRC RS232 specifies at least 3V either way from ground. (I _think_ the direction of the swing is backwards, too, but I'd have to check that.) When I wrote... >> I think that adapter was completely passive, being just connectors >> and wiring. ...I was talking about an adapter to not a serial port such as is typically put on a DB-25, but to a DA-15 port dedicated to the keyboard and mouse. In the machine, it was connected to an ordinary UART port, but without the level shifting circuitry serial ports generally have to map between logic voltage levels and RS232 voltage levels. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Aug 21 05:18:28 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 05:18:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Sun 1 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <201208210720.DAA22321@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201208200708.DAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50321EC1.8090208@comcast.net> <201208210720.DAA22321@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2012, Mouse wrote: > [top-posting and no-trimming damage repaired manually -Mouse] > >>>> Is the Sun 2 Keyboard a serial keyboard? >>> Depends on what you mean by "Sun 2 Keyboard". [description] >>> I'd call it a type 2. It's been a while, but as I recall, they had >>> a coiled cable with an RJ-style plug on the host end, [...] >> Yes that is exactly the keyboard I have, it is a Large metal keyboard >> with an RJ45 plug which connects via a cable to a DB15 adapter. > > That's not it, then; the keyboards in question use plugs substantially > narrower than RJ45 (or more correctly 8P8C, since it's not RJ45 unless > you're putting POTS phone service on the middle pair). I think they > were 4P4C, but might have been 6P6C - or more likely 6P4C. > > I'll assume your "RJ45" was just a (very loose) term for "modular > plug/jack of unspecified size", for purposes of this email. ^^^^^ This. Most people will have no idea what an uphill battle it was to get this corrected on Wikipedia. A small number of highly vocal people /really/ wanted to argue that these connectors should be called RJ45 and RJ11 instead of their industry names, 8P8C, 6P6C, 6P4C, 6P2C, etc. ...and don't even get me started on the RJ22/RJ10 vs 4P4C mess (or RJ50 vs 10P10C)... All in all it took -months- to get this stuff mostly corrected and get the search redirects all put in place on Wikipedia. Alas, I think outside of academia and technology circles, we are forever doomed to see modular plugs and connectors referred to as RJ45 and RJ11. Of course, then there are these little boogers which have 8 contacts like an 8P8C, but have narrow body which allows them to be plugged into ether a 6PxC -or- 8P8C jack. http://www.siemon.com/e-catalog/ECAT_GI_page.aspx?GI_ID=mpc_universal-modular-plug Still, while these are far too expensive for bulk applications, the K plug from Aines is still one of my favorite modular plugs: http://www.aines.com/aines_products_cords.html http://www.aines.com/kplug.pdf I consider it a true shame that the plug patents from Siemon and Aines prevent combining the two plug designs. A combination of those two design ideas would make for the ultimate test-type modular plug since the 8P8C version of the Aines K plug won't fit a 6P6C jack. From electronicdan at hotmail.co.uk Tue Aug 21 04:43:45 2012 From: electronicdan at hotmail.co.uk (Dan Robertson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 10:43:45 +0100 Subject: Interview 8200 Message-ID: Hello. I have a Telenex Interview 8200. After the self tests, it asks for the system disk and then to press any key. There is hard drive activity, but it seems that the system software is not present. Is it possible to obtain the software for this unit? Thank you. Dan. From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Tue Aug 21 05:07:31 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:07:31 +0100 Subject: The Manchester hoard of 7090 stuff. Message-ID: <9D777140A926432B9806264434A86FC0@vostro> Guys, We have decided that the 7090 artifacts should go to the National Museum of Computing at Bletchley Park, England. Partly for patriotic reasons: the use the computer was put to in the UK. Also, we decided it is what the owner, a British pioneer of medical computing, would have wanted. Lastly, TNMOC assured me that they would be prepared to make copies availble of anything requested by outside museums and collectors. The items should be with them by the start of October 2012. It was good to discover that two complete 7090s with support documentation is available in the US and Australia. That also weighed on the decision. I do hope they will one day be reactivated, when I will be delighted to come and have a look around! Kind regards, peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From j.terry at btinternet.com Tue Aug 21 07:30:19 2012 From: j.terry at btinternet.com (John) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:30:19 +0100 Subject: Local repair service wanted for BBC B micro/Master Message-ID: <000701cd7f98$b9f0b950$2dd22bf0$@btinternet.com> Hi Does anyone have a contact within 5-10 miles of Purley, Surrey who can repair BBC computers at reasonable cost please? Thanks John From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 07:59:13 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:59:13 -0400 Subject: USB-serial adapters (was: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies.) Message-ID: This little device seems to be the cheapest FTDI-based USB-serial adapter I could find. Not sure what level converter chip it uses since I haven't torn it down, but it seems to work with everything I've used it with so far. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TYCHIC/ref=cm_cr_rev_prod_title --Dave From spedraja at ono.com Tue Aug 21 08:00:37 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:00:37 +0200 Subject: Summer Searchings Message-ID: Hi. I've reviewed one VT220, one DEC Letterwriter and my PDP8-E. Status: - VT220 terminal - dead (in appeareance, the tube). - Letterwriter: PS or/and some circuitry, - PDP-8E: working. I should like to get one Teletype for it. If someone has some ot these items to get rid or trade, let me know off-list. Destination, south of Europe (Spain). Regards Sergio From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 21 10:36:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:36:01 -0400 Subject: Sun 1 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <201208210720.DAA22321@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201208200708.DAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50321EC1.8090208@comcast.net> <201208210720.DAA22321@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5033AAE1.1000904@neurotica.com> On 08/21/2012 03:20 AM, Mouse wrote: > Even if you tie > signal ground to 2.5V, the voltage swing isn't enough; IIRC RS232 > specifies at least 3V either way from ground. (I _think_ the direction > of the swing is backwards, too, but I'd have to check that.) You are correct. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 21 11:07:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 09:07:54 -0700 Subject: Sun 1 Computer LIVES!!! In-Reply-To: <2B982C28-8F41-448E-82FD-0836C97ED366@comcast.net> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <2B982C28-8F41-448E-82FD-0836C97ED366@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5033B25A.1090709@bitsavers.org> On 8/20/12 4:52 PM, Paul Heller wrote: >> Next step is to acquire a keyboard and mouse. FWIW, the original keyboard was made by Microswitch. The Mouse is a Hawley Mark II X063X From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 12:56:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 18:56:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: <50324F53.6430.157219D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 20, 12 02:53:07 pm Message-ID: > >From the service manual, that is indeed the case. Further, you need > to mark the positions of the various gears attached to the mainshaft, > lest you disrupt the timing. Is there a procesudure given for checking/setting the timing'from scratch'? I am always wary of whether the setting in a second-hend machine are spot-on, so I would want to check this, even if it takes a long time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 12:53:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 18:53:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <3CA7475A1FC34430B0773DA167743CF2@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Aug 20, 12 10:23:11 pm Message-ID: > Briefly looking at the R-Pi, it at least party meets your goals of > maintainable. The hardware It's basically 2 chips IIRC (the main one, which is in fact a multichip mnodule) and the ethernet interface. So 'repair's is likely to involve replacign that main IC, in a BGA packaeg :-( If yoou can get one. AFIAK you can't get a fulldata sheet for that main 'IC'. Some data has been released, but there is no full specification of the graphics processor. > schematics are online, the parts are (at least mostly available): the > parenthetical qualification > is because I don't know whether the broadcom chip is available (I guess > not ine onesies ...). I > also don't have the kit here to swap that one out. That is the problem. I don't yet have BGA rewok facilities either. The user port (a 26 pin header) is wired stright to that IC, which strikes me as poor design... One slip and you are looking for an very hard to find IC and trying to work out how to solder it on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 13:07:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 19:07:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Summer Searchings In-Reply-To: from "SPC" at Aug 21, 12 03:00:37 pm Message-ID: > > Hi. I've reviewed one VT220, one DEC Letterwriter and my PDP8-E. Status: > > - VT220 terminal - dead (in appeareance, the tube). Very unlikely to be the CRT, unless th glass is obviously broekn. Much more lilely to be a voltage supply problem, again most likely to be in the horizontal output stage. I would start by chucking the CRT voltages > - Letterwriter: PS or/and some circuitry, I think the LA100 printset is on bitsavers. The power supply is a separate module, and you can check the voltages on the output connector to see where the problem lies. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 21 13:04:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 19:04:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Local repair service wanted for BBC B micro/Master In-Reply-To: <000701cd7f98$b9f0b950$2dd22bf0$@btinternet.com> from "John" at Aug 21, 12 01:30:19 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > > > > Does anyone have a contact within 5-10 miles of Purley, Surrey who can > repair BBC computers at reasonable cost please? Does it have to be a contact? Would an actual list memebr do? I am probalby within 10 miles of Purley, I can certainly get there. I also have reparied BBC micros in the past. How many machines are we talking about, and what sort of time scale? Family matters are taking up much of my time at the momnent, but if there's not too much work involved and it can wait a bit, I could possibly help. -tony From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Aug 21 13:38:01 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:38:01 +0200 Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5033D589.5060607@bluewin.ch> On 08/21/2012 07:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Briefly looking at the R-Pi, it at least party meets your goals of >> maintainable. The hardware > It's basically 2 chips IIRC (the main one, which is in fact a multichip > mnodule) and the ethernet interface. So 'repair's is likely to involve > replacign that main IC, in a BGA packaeg :-( If yoou can get one. > > AFIAK you can't get a fulldata sheet for that main 'IC'. Some data has > been released, but there is no full specification of the graphics processor. > >> schematics are online, the parts are (at least mostly available): the >> parenthetical qualification >> is because I don't know whether the broadcom chip is available (I guess >> not ine onesies ...). I >> also don't have the kit here to swap that one out. > That is the problem. I don't yet have BGA rewok facilities either. The > user port (a 26 pin header) is wired stright to that IC, which strikes me > as poor design... One slip and you are looking for an very hard to find > IC and trying to work out how to solder it on. > > -tony > The r-pi is both a computer, and a component. Even if you had BGA rework possibilities, repair would be costlier than replacement. There is such a thing as economics... Jos From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 14:25:06 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5151 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1345577106.69141.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> *I* don't have a 5151, but I do have a spare Eagle monitor, which is a 5151 workalike. Let me know if you're interested. It's in NJ. ________________________________ From: Mohammed BOUHOUM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 1:59 AM Subject: IBM 5151 Hi Ismail; I'm interesed by a monitor for vintage IBM 5150, do you still have 1 unit of ibm 5151 ? Thanks Mohammed From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 14:26:34 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tek oscilliscopes In-Reply-To: <502FDF09.3@neurotica.com> References: <1345215402.86992.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <502FDF09.3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1345577194.33896.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I don't remember exactly what model it was. But in all likelihood it was the first in the *family*. Just my guess. The lab I worked at just got it in. I dropped dead the first time I set eyes on it. ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire On 08/17/2012 10:56 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I want one of the HP color crt scopes I used when they were released circa 1989. I think I'm getting closer to owning one. ? What model?? 54K series maybe?? I have a 54111D, GaAs front-end, incredible device even today.? I don't think it's quite that old, but I think the family is. ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 14:36:56 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chinese products [was Re: Hans Camenzind, Inventor of the 555, dies.] In-Reply-To: <201208191623.MAA14710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120818095750.R98338@shell.lmi.net> <502FC1DE.29802.1DB5A4E@cclist.sydex.com> <50303031.9030206@neurotica.com> <503108FD.2010907@gmail.com> <201208191623.MAA14710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1345577816.41057.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Mouse >> [...], not everything from the Chinese is junk. > They'll build what people want them to build, and it's just > unfortunate that the vast majority of people want cheap shit with > poor reliability and a short lifespan. I think that's inaccurate at least by implication. I think it's not the individual end users that want that.? I think it's the intermediate companies.? They want inexpensive and they want it to die ASAP after the warranty period. C: Nobody wants cheap garbage. That's not what he meant. What people absolutely do want is _inexpensive_. More often then not that requires a trade off. No not all Chinese stuff is horrible. But most of it is inexpensive by comparison. The tradeoffs are thrown in gratis :( We don't know what end users want. C: Yes we do. They want the most they can get for their money. Sometimes end-losers, like me, are foolish in their decisions. I became enticed by cheap tablets when I became aware of their existence. I bit, but I made a BIG mistake while perusing it's features (found a cheap one w/a resistive screen - Oi, big mistake). Also bought it from a loser of an American drop shipper. I can live w/some of it's h/w deficiencies, I dont' hate it. What I can't live with is the quirky filesystem shortcomings. Not sure what that's a function of exactly, cheapo firmware or not. ?I have learned that there are better models, considerably better. But they _all_ have their shortcomings. But to me they're just toys, w/limited serious functionality. And I tend to spend much less on my toys then on serious purchases. ? They are mostly not given an chance to express a desire for anything else by purchasing decisions, since it's difficult to find anything else amid the ocean of race-to-the-bottom cheap crap.? Most end users have never encountered decent reliability. C: I can't agree w/that. I'm sure that the person who bought a 400$ Android tablet has much less to complain about then those who bought one for 150$. Ask them to swap, and they'll laugh at you. But it all depends on what you mean by reliability. Most of the hardware I own is pretty flawless. The software components are what bother me. /~\ The ASCII??? ??? ??? ??? ? Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X? Against HTML??? ??? mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email!??? ? ? 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39? 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 14:37:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tek oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: References: <502D65E5.4010205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1345577877.43171.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> any shout outs for the 2115. I bought mine at a flea market for 4$ :). Very light, very portable. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 14:38:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <1345467854.70643.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1345467854.70643.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1345577904.60483.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> anyone else w/a 305? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 21 14:42:32 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:42:32 +0100 Subject: pdp-11/70 front panel bezel In-Reply-To: <5032F983.9090009@neurotica.com> References: <50324E3A.8070507@bitsavers.org> <5032C528.1040503@neurotica.com> <5032E870.6020301@att.net> <5032F278.2090801@neurotica.com> <5032F81C.7090306@gmail.com> <5032F983.9090009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5033E4A8.2050604@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/08/2012 03:59, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/20/2012 10:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Real-men rotate their pictures to not cause sudden neck strain to people >> unfortunate enough to click on their links ;) > > Sorry, that was taken with my phone. > > Oddly, when I pull them to my desktop machine and display them there, > they are not rotated sideways. I've run across this before but > dismissed it in a rush. Is there something in the EXIF data or > something that conveys rotation? There's an EXIF Orientation tag, an XMP Tiff Orientation tag, and an IPTCImageRotation tag. Browsers and simple image display software typically ignore them, but many cameras and pretty much all sensible image management or editing software honours them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 21 15:25:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:25:47 -0700 Subject: Can a Selectric from 1961 converted in one Terminal Typewriter In-Reply-To: References: <50324F53.6430.157219D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 20, 12 02:53:07 pm, Message-ID: <50338C5B.24315.EAC5AF@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Aug 2012 at 18:56, Tony Duell wrote: > Is there a procesudure given for checking/setting the timing'from > scratch'? I am always wary of whether the setting in a second-hend > machine are spot-on, so I would want to check this, even if it takes a > long time. There are several manuals for this; both third-party and IBM. There is some information in bitsavers as well on the Yahoo! list. Fortunately for us all, IBM goes to great pains to explain the workings of the Selectric. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 21 20:10:01 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201208220110.VAA27816@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Making an HPIB 'drive' using flash memory cards (or USB sticks), a > microcontroller, et is one of those projects that gets talked about > here from time to time but which nobody has ever doen. I got started on building glue logic so a host with a parallel port could play HP-IB drive. But I think I managed to blow the output stage on one of the driver ICs on my host machine before I got much of anywhere. :( It's one of the projects I intend to pick up one of these years. Perhaps someone else will get to it first. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 23:47:57 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:47:57 -0700 Subject: Any Transputer + Helios experts out there? Message-ID: <5034647D.3040804@gmail.com> Anyone out there have any expertise/experience with Helios on PC hardware? I've got a fairly small Transputer setup going; it's a standard PC + an ISA TRAM motherboard holding 10 1mb TRAMs. (I also have a 4mb TRAM coming in the mail, I'm so excited...) The PC's running DOS + Win98 at the moment and I've been playing around with Helios. Thus far I've been using the DOS I/O "server" executable to run Helios but I'd like to do something graphical with it (fractals of course, what else do you do with 10 transputers?). I have a Windows-based server (winsrvr3, v3.201) but I have no idea what its capabilities are or how to use them (graphics in particular). I've been unable to find any useful documentation for this server. Any tips here? Thanks! Josh From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 23:50:04 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:50:04 -0700 Subject: Secret Pics in Macintosh SE ROMS In-Reply-To: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503464FC.2040702@gmail.com> I bet Al can ID everyone of them. http://www.nycresistor.com/2012/08/21/ghosts-in-the-rom/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 00:18:55 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 00:18:55 -0500 Subject: Secret Pics in Macintosh SE ROMS In-Reply-To: <503464FC.2040702@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <503464FC.2040702@gmail.com> Message-ID: saw that on the irc pritty cool On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I bet Al can ID everyone of them. http://www.nycresistor.com/** > 2012/08/21/ghosts-in-the-rom/ > From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 00:25:05 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 22:25:05 -0700 Subject: Secret Pics in Macintosh SE ROMS In-Reply-To: References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <503464FC.2040702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50346D31.8060006@gmail.com> On 8/21/2012 10:18 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > saw that on the irc pritty cool > > After reading the comments it looks like this is pretty old news. Well they found it on their own so, good for them anyway. From pinball at telus.net Tue Aug 21 16:04:31 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:04:31 -0700 Subject: Sun 1 Computer LIVES!!! In-Reply-To: <2B982C28-8F41-448E-82FD-0836C97ED366@comcast.net> References: <503063B4.6080002@comcast.net> <2B982C28-8F41-448E-82FD-0836C97ED366@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5033F7DF.60809@telus.net> Paul Heller wrote: > On Aug 18, 2012, at 9:55 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > > >> Thanks everyone (especially Bear) for the wonderful help in reviving my Sun 1 Computer (100u to be exact). >> >> After extensive CRT repairs, a EPROM reprogram (from Rev N to V100), my Sun is now booting via the Sun2 CPU card and the bwone video board. >> >> Will upload screenshots tomorrow! >> >> Next step is to acquire a keyboard and mouse. Anyone have a series 1 Parallel Keyboard and mouse? Or have any ideas on what type of keyboard or mouse would be compatible (if I was able to rewire to DB25). It appears to be a serial protocol, are the old RJ45 keyboards of the same format? Other ideas? >> >> Thanks a million, you are the best! >> >> -Nick >> > > Bravo, Nick! I look forward to the screen shots. > > I'd appreciate hearing more about the CRT repairs. I have a bad CRT in a Wang system and am hesitant to tackle it. I'd appreciate any advice you could share. > > Paul > > Commonly the first thing to fail in monitors are the electrolytic capacitors. Replacing these first goes a long way to reviving monitors and preventing catastrophic failure (blown flybacks and HOTs - Horizontal Output Transistors). Be careful to get the correct type of capacitor for the application it is used in the monitor, some need to be low ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) - usually in the horizontal circuits or filters off the flyback, and the main B+ capacitor must be high quality to avoid overheating from ripple. If the schematics define the capacitor or give you a manufacturers number so much the better - then you only need to do some research to find what exactly the parameters of that capacitor were before replacing it. It isn't just the capacitance and breakdown voltage that are important! An ESR meter can help with deciding which caps to replace... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Aug 21 17:18:56 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:18:56 -0500 Subject: Sun 1 Computer LIVES!!! In-Reply-To: <5033B25A.1090709@bitsavers.org> References: <5033B25A.1090709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50340950.4040906@comcast.net> REALLY?!! Thats great news, I just happen to have a Hawley Mark II mouse with the serial to parallel adapter box, I wonder if it will work =) -------------------- On 8/20/12 4:52 PM, Paul Heller wrote: >>/ Next step is to acquire a keyboard and mouse. / FWIW, the original keyboard was made by Microswitch. The Mouse is a Hawley Mark II X063X From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 22 01:39:19 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:39:19 -0700 Subject: Secret Pics in Macintosh SE ROMS In-Reply-To: <503464FC.2040702@gmail.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <503464FC.2040702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50347E97.4080302@bitsavers.org> On 8/21/12 9:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I bet Al can ID everyone of them. http://www.nycresistor.com/2012/08/21/ghosts-in-the-rom/ > > I left a comment about the ones that I remembered off the top of my head. I think Bob Bailey is the only person shown that is still at Apple. The middle picture must have been project coordinators, I'm drawing a blank for all of them. The first picture are mostly toolbox people, the third, hardware and low level driver folks. His Steveness banned all Easter eggs upon His return, though to be honest they were getting overly elaborate by the end (the waving Iguana flag over the center of the Infinite Loop inner quad, for example) From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 02:29:48 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 00:29:48 -0700 Subject: Secret Pics in Macintosh SE ROMS In-Reply-To: <50347E97.4080302@bitsavers.org> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <503464FC.2040702@gmail.com> <50347E97.4080302@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50348A6C.7050206@gmail.com> On 8/21/2012 11:39 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I left a comment about the ones that I remembered off the top of my > head. I think Bob Bailey is > the only person shown that is still at Apple. The middle picture must > have been project coordinators, > I'm drawing a blank for all of them. The first picture are mostly > toolbox people, the third, hardware > and low level driver folks. Made me a little sad how many (RIP) there were in your post. They will live forever in the SE ROM anyway. Probably better than many of us can hope for. From whsiung at simconsultants.com Wed Aug 22 01:29:27 2012 From: whsiung at simconsultants.com (Winnie Hsiung) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:29:27 +0800 Subject: Heurikon HK68/V4F boards Message-ID: <004901cd802f$7b9baab0$72d30010$@com> Hello, I came across this thread (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2006-May/020758.html) as I was searching for the subjected Heurikon VME modules. Do you still have the boards that you mentioned you had? If so, are you interested in making them available for sale? I am looking to purchase a total quantity of 3 boards (HK68/V4F) in working conditions with a 90-day warranty. Thank you for reviewing my inquiry. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Best Regards, Winnie Hsiung CentraTech Corporation From ats at offog.org Wed Aug 22 05:37:35 2012 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:37:35 +0100 Subject: Any Transputer + Helios experts out there? In-Reply-To: <5034647D.3040804@gmail.com> (Josh Dersch's message of "Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:47:57 -0700") References: <5034647D.3040804@gmail.com> Message-ID: Josh Dersch writes: > I'd like to do something graphical with it (fractals of course, what > else do you do with 10 transputers?). Run the Inmos multiplayer flight simulator? It's described here: http://www.transputer.net/tn/36/tn36.html And the source code archive is available from here: http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/ I hacked the code around a few years ago to get it to work on a modern occam compiler (KRoC); the code's pretty easy to follow, given the tech note above. My version's here: http://offog.org/darcs/flightsim/ Thanks, -- Adam Sampson From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 09:58:46 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:58:46 +0200 Subject: Panasonic HHC technical information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Could the chap who wanted scehamtics, etc for the HHC please get in touch > with me. It turns out it's been scanned and can be quite easily sent to > you. I've lost your address... > > -tony While I'm not the one that was part of that discussion, I have one of those HHC's in storage (on the other side of the Atlantic, unfortunately), so I'd be interested in those as well. Can they be put on a server accessible to the general public? Joachim. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 10:05:48 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:05:48 +0200 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: <20120814155607.S80619@shell.lmi.net> References: <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com> <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com> <20120814155607.S80619@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> How many retired high-school band directors can you name with perfect >> hearing? They're also exposed intermittently, yet every one that I >> know is somewhere between somewhat hearing-impaired to almost deaf as >> a tree. > > Although there is certainly a correlation between hearing > impairment and certain musically related occupations, we > must be careful to avoid assuming causation! > Perhaps hearing impairment causes certain people to go into those jobs! > (or play certain kinds of music) Hearing loss and associated disorders are quite well studied (and rightly so). IIRC, it's almost like an integration function: slight noises over long periods do similar damage to loud noises in only short periods. How many Bagpipers can still hear properly in their left ear? -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 10:17:18 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:17:18 +0200 Subject: Hearing (was Re: HP3000 Marketing Collateral) In-Reply-To: References: <502A87D3.6070901@gmail.com> <502AB575.2040605@neurotica.com> <502A6676.23079.8A2386@cclist.sydex.com> <20120814155607.S80619@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > How many Bagpipers can still hear properly in their left ear? Left-handed bagpipers? (Sorry, couldn't resist it...) Cheers, Camiel. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 11:04:04 2012 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New haul - three classics Message-ID: <1345651444.68753.YahooMailRC@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Picked up my first additions in some time today. Three new systems plus two packed boxes of software, documentation, books and magazines. All from the same original owner. Feel like a kid on Christmas morning. Going to take some time to document and record what all is in this collection but the three systems are: Compucolor II Osborne 1 Sharp PC-4501 So much stuff, so little time. Alas now I have to leave it at home and go into work. David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 14:30:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 20:30:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <201208220110.VAA27816@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Aug 21, 12 09:10:01 pm Message-ID: > > > Making an HPIB 'drive' using flash memory cards (or USB sticks), a > > microcontroller, et is one of those projects that gets talked about > > here from time to time but which nobody has ever doen. > > I got started on building glue logic so a host with a parallel port > could play HP-IB drive. But I think I managed to blow the output stage > on one of the driver ICs on my host machine before I got much of > anywhere. :( I was thinking more of something small/stnadalone. I half-thought about using an R-pi. Banging the HPIB handshake on the pins of htat user port connecotr (with buffres added, of course). the R-pi has just about everything else you need, includign a USB host interface. But it's more than I can take on at the moment, and there are thiugs I dislike about the R-pi. > > It's one of the projects I intend to pick up one of these years. > Perhaps someone else will get to it first. Yeah, that;s how I feel. Perhpas when the ST412-interface drives in my HP drive units fail irreprably, I will take it on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 22 14:06:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 20:06:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: To all with interest in preservation In-Reply-To: <5033D589.5060607@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Aug 21, 12 08:38:01 pm Message-ID: > The r-pi is both a computer, and a component. > Even if you had BGA rework possibilities, repair would be costlier than replacement. > > There is such a thing as economics... That is one thing I dislkike about it... You are talking to the person who bought a Myford lathe to repair a cheap photocopier :-) (tongue-in-cheek, but only just :-)). More seriosuly, I do wonder how long Rpis will be available for. I dislike designing round a 'component' and then finding it's unavaialble when I actually wanty to make more of my designs. -tony From jon at jonworld.com Wed Aug 22 17:28:01 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:28:01 -0400 Subject: Paging Al [Apple Stuff] Message-ID: I saw this and remembered you may be among the photographed? http://www.nycresistor.com/2012/08/21/ghosts-in-the-rom/ -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 22 18:13:55 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:13:55 -0700 Subject: Paging Al [Apple Stuff] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503567B3.70404@bitsavers.org> On 8/22/12 3:28 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > I saw this and remembered you may be among the photographed? > > http://www.nycresistor.com/2012/08/21/ghosts-in-the-rom/ > Nope, I was working in a research group at the time. I didn't move to product development until the 90's. I did post the names of the people that worked on the SE that I remembered. Funny thing, I just ran into Ed Tecot downstairs at CHM, and he is going to identify some more of the people for me. From jon at jonworld.com Wed Aug 22 18:29:44 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:29:44 -0400 Subject: Paging Al [Apple Stuff] In-Reply-To: <503567B3.70404@bitsavers.org> References: <503567B3.70404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 7:13 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Nope, I was working in a research group at the time. I didn't > move to product development until the 90's. I did post the names > of the people that worked on the SE that I remembered. Funny thing, > I just ran into Ed Tecot downstairs at CHM, and he is going to > identify some more of the people for me. I should have scrolled down and I would have seen your comments about who's-who :D From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 22 20:55:12 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II Message-ID: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. Any idea what to offer him? I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some backing. any discussion appreciated. It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens full of stuff. jim From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 21:31:23 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 02:31:23 +0000 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable income. Its less common to find them with software although images can be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and software you could consider a little more but unfortunately they're fairly common systems still. -----Original Message----- From: jim s Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Kaypro II A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. Any idea what to offer him? I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some backing. any discussion appreciated. It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens full of stuff. jim From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Aug 22 22:30:11 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 20:30:11 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> Hi, That's pretty depressing. I have a kaypro II setting here. I knew it wasn't worth much, but $40 bucks isn't worth the time to pack it. I think I could get more tearing it down and selling the drives and other CPU bits. Ugh!. JimD. barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable income. Its less common to find them with software although images can be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and software you could consider a little more but unfortunately they're fairly common systems still. > -----Original Message----- > From: jim s > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Kaypro II > > A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals > and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. > > Any idea what to offer him? > > I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. > > He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it > is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original > owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some backing. > > any discussion appreciated. > > It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens full > of stuff. > > jim > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 22 22:39:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:39:19 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> Why not just, well you know, have a Kaypro? (what a concept!) On 08/22/2012 11:30 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > Hi, > That's pretty depressing. I have a kaypro II setting here. I knew it > wasn't worth much, but $40 bucks isn't worth the time to pack it. > I think I could get more tearing it down and selling the drives and > other CPU bits. > Ugh!. > JimD. > > barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 >> personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable >> income. Its less common to find them with software although images can >> be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and software you >> could consider a little more but unfortunately they're fairly common >> systems still. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jim s >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 >> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Kaypro II >> >> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals >> and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >> >> Any idea what to offer him? >> >> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. >> >> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it >> is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original >> owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some >> backing. >> >> any discussion appreciated. >> >> It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens full >> of stuff. >> >> jim >> >> >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 22:50:38 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 20:50:38 -0700 Subject: Any Transputer + Helios experts out there? In-Reply-To: References: <5034647D.3040804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5035A88E.6010205@gmail.com> On 8/22/2012 3:37 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > Josh Dersch writes: > >> I'd like to do something graphical with it (fractals of course, what >> else do you do with 10 transputers?). > Run the Inmos multiplayer flight simulator? > > It's described here: > http://www.transputer.net/tn/36/tn36.html > > And the source code archive is available from here: > http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/ > > I hacked the code around a few years ago to get it to work on a modern > occam compiler (KRoC); the code's pretty easy to follow, given the tech > note above. My version's here: > http://offog.org/darcs/flightsim/ > > Thanks, > That does look like a lot of fun. From the documentation it looks like it uses a transputer video TRAM (which unfortunately I lack -- there was one on eBay just a couple of days ago but it went for more than I was willing to spend). All the more reason to figure out how to get graphics working on the host PC... - Josh From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Aug 22 22:53:52 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 20:53:52 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> People are trying to take my home. I've been paying for 14 years with one year left, I need the money. I have had most of the stuff i'm setting on for 20 to 30 years. Too much stuff and no work. Don't ever, EVER take out a credit consolidation loan. I owned this place 15 years ago when everything was roses. Took it to use the mortgage tax write off. Jimd. Dave McGuire wrote: > Why not just, well you know, have a Kaypro? > > (what a concept!) > > On 08/22/2012 11:30 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >> Hi, >> That's pretty depressing. I have a kaypro II setting here. I knew it >> wasn't worth much, but $40 bucks isn't worth the time to pack it. >> I think I could get more tearing it down and selling the drives and >> other CPU bits. >> Ugh!. >> JimD. >> >> barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>> I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 >>> personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable >>> income. Its less common to find them with software although images can >>> be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and software you >>> could consider a little more but unfortunately they're fairly common >>> systems still. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jim s >>> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 >>> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic >>> Posts >>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Subject: Kaypro II >>> >>> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals >>> and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >>> >>> Any idea what to offer him? >>> >>> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. >>> >>> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it >>> is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original >>> owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some >>> backing. >>> >>> any discussion appreciated. >>> >>> It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens full >>> of stuff. >>> >>> jim >>> >>> >>> >> > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 22 23:02:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 00:02:45 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> Hoooooboy. :-( I feel your pain my friend. Where are you located? -Dave On 08/22/2012 11:53 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > People are trying to take my home. I've been paying for 14 years with > one year left, I need the money. > I have had most of the stuff i'm setting on for 20 to 30 years. Too much > stuff and no work. > Don't ever, EVER take out a credit consolidation loan. I owned this > place 15 years ago when everything was roses. > Took it to use the mortgage tax write off. > Jimd. > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Why not just, well you know, have a Kaypro? >> >> (what a concept!) >> >> On 08/22/2012 11:30 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >>> Hi, >>> That's pretty depressing. I have a kaypro II setting here. I knew it >>> wasn't worth much, but $40 bucks isn't worth the time to pack it. >>> I think I could get more tearing it down and selling the drives and >>> other CPU bits. >>> Ugh!. >>> JimD. >>> >>> barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>>> I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 >>>> personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable >>>> income. Its less common to find them with software although images can >>>> be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and software you >>>> could consider a little more but unfortunately they're fairly common >>>> systems still. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jim s >>>> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 >>>> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic >>>> Posts >>>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>> >>>> Subject: Kaypro II >>>> >>>> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals >>>> and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >>>> >>>> Any idea what to offer him? >>>> >>>> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. >>>> >>>> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it >>>> is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an >>>> original >>>> owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some >>>> backing. >>>> >>>> any discussion appreciated. >>>> >>>> It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens >>>> full >>>> of stuff. >>>> >>>> jim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 23:24:47 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:24:47 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> At least out here on the west coast you would be lucky to get $40 for Kaypro. There really isn't much love for the all in one cp/m boxes in general. They never really made any emotional connection with people. All work no play. The Kaypro were about the least interesting of the lot too. On 8/22/2012 8:30 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > Hi, > That's pretty depressing. I have a kaypro II setting here. I knew it > wasn't worth much, but $40 bucks isn't worth the time to pack it. > I think I could get more tearing it down and selling the drives and > other CPU bits. > Ugh!. > JimD. > > barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 >> personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable >> income. Its less common to find them with software although images >> can be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and >> software you could consider a little more but unfortunately they're >> fairly common systems still. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jim s >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 >> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Kaypro II >> >> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals >> and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >> >> Any idea what to offer him? >> >> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. >> >> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it >> is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original >> owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some >> backing. >> >> any discussion appreciated. >> >> It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens full >> of stuff. >> >> jim >> >> >> > > From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Aug 22 23:29:43 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:29:43 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> Hi Dave, In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, 130 Miles west of Portland Or. Under the cloud of Google in "The Dalles" All my work has been in Portland since 2000., Horrible traffic. Never met any smelly hippies. Radisys and Intel contracts have been my life. I got canned from my guaranteed "CEO: Everyone in this room is going to get really rich": 5 year gig doing avionics for undefined reasons. Aviation buffs might get the humor.. Cheers, Jimd. Dave McGuire wrote: > Hoooooboy. :-( I feel your pain my friend. > > Where are you located? > > -Dave > > On 08/22/2012 11:53 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >> People are trying to take my home. I've been paying for 14 years with >> one year left, I need the money. >> I have had most of the stuff i'm setting on for 20 to 30 years. Too much >> stuff and no work. >> Don't ever, EVER take out a credit consolidation loan. I owned this >> place 15 years ago when everything was roses. >> Took it to use the mortgage tax write off. >> Jimd. >> >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Why not just, well you know, have a Kaypro? >>> >>> (what a concept!) >>> >>> On 08/22/2012 11:30 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> That's pretty depressing. I have a kaypro II setting here. I knew it >>>> wasn't worth much, but $40 bucks isn't worth the time to pack it. >>>> I think I could get more tearing it down and selling the drives and >>>> other CPU bits. >>>> Ugh!. >>>> JimD. >>>> >>>> barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>>>> I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 >>>>> personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable >>>>> income. Its less common to find them with software although images can >>>>> be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and software you >>>>> could consider a little more but unfortunately they're fairly common >>>>> systems still. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jim s >>>>> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 >>>>> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic >>>>> Posts >>>>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Kaypro II >>>>> >>>>> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals >>>>> and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >>>>> >>>>> Any idea what to offer him? >>>>> >>>>> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. >>>>> >>>>> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it >>>>> is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an >>>>> original >>>>> owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some >>>>> backing. >>>>> >>>>> any discussion appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens >>>>> full >>>>> of stuff. >>>>> >>>>> jim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 22 23:32:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (mcguire at neurotica.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 00:32:34 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and serviced them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Aug 23, 2012, at 12:24 AM, mc68010 wrote: > At least out here on the west coast you would be lucky to get $40 for Kaypro. There really isn't much love for the all in one cp/m boxes in general. They never really made any emotional connection with people. All work no play. The Kaypro were about the least interesting of the lot too. > > > On 8/22/2012 8:30 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >> Hi, >> That's pretty depressing. I have a kaypro II setting here. I knew it wasn't worth much, but $40 bucks isn't worth the time to pack it. >> I think I could get more tearing it down and selling the drives and other CPU bits. >> Ugh!. >> JimD. >> >> barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>> I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable income. Its less common to find them with software although images can be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and software you could consider a little more but unfortunately they're fairly common systems still. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jim s >>> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 >>> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Subject: Kaypro II >>> >>> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals >>> and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >>> >>> Any idea what to offer him? >>> >>> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. >>> >>> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it >>> is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original >>> owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some backing. >>> >>> any discussion appreciated. >>> >>> It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens full >>> of stuff. >>> >>> jim >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 23:44:30 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:44:30 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5035B52E.1070801@gmail.com> I personally hate them. Seriously. It's just my personal opinion of course. They are just like 99% of the rest of the cp/m boxes but, I dislike pretty much everything about their design. I always felt like it was designed in East Germany. Didn't they just rip off the big board anyway ? On 8/22/2012 9:32 PM, mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: > I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and serviced them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 22 23:47:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:47:52 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com>, <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com>, <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> Message-ID: <50355388.27570.2D6330B@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2012 at 21:29, jimpdavis wrote: > Hi Dave, > In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, ...just north of Bend/south of Yakima? That really is in the middle of nowhere! --Chuck From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Aug 22 23:48:17 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:48:17 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5035B611.2020103@gorge.net> mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: > I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and serviced them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. > > -Dave > I would like to get a copy of colossal cave and forget my troubles.. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 22 23:49:07 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> from "mcguire@neurotica.com" at "Aug 23, 12 00:32:34 am" Message-ID: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> > I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole lot of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Yes, but when I try to see things your way it gives me a headache. --------- From pye at mactec.com.au Wed Aug 22 23:53:03 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:53:03 +1000 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7EDA43DC-0304-4613-A1C5-1C959F8EA365@mactec.com.au> On 23/08/2012, at 2:32 PM, mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: > > I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and serviced them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. > > -Dave Indeed. Compared to other CP/M portables (like the Osborne), the Kaypros were very well made and easy to work on. No crappy plastic parts. My favourite CP/M machine, well that I own anyway.. Chris From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Aug 22 23:53:20 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:53:20 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5035B740.3060807@gorge.net> I re-read my post, "5 year gig doing avionics for undefined reasons." The product really didn't have a place in the NAS and was undefined,. My firing was also "undefined" jimpdavis wrote: > Hi Dave, > In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, 130 Miles > west of Portland Or. Under the cloud of Google in "The Dalles" > All my work has been in Portland since 2000., Horrible traffic. Never > met any smelly hippies. Radisys and Intel contracts have been my life. > I got canned from my guaranteed "CEO: Everyone in this room is going > to get really rich": 5 year gig doing avionics for undefined reasons. > Aviation buffs might get the humor.. > Cheers, > Jimd. > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Hoooooboy. :-( I feel your pain my friend. >> >> Where are you located? >> >> -Dave >> >> On 08/22/2012 11:53 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >>> People are trying to take my home. I've been paying for 14 years with >>> one year left, I need the money. >>> I have had most of the stuff i'm setting on for 20 to 30 years. Too >>> much >>> stuff and no work. >>> Don't ever, EVER take out a credit consolidation loan. I owned this >>> place 15 years ago when everything was roses. >>> Took it to use the mortgage tax write off. >>> Jimd. >>> >>> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> Why not just, well you know, have a Kaypro? >>>> >>>> (what a concept!) >>>> >>>> On 08/22/2012 11:30 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> That's pretty depressing. I have a kaypro II setting here. I knew it >>>>> wasn't worth much, but $40 bucks isn't worth the time to pack it. >>>>> I think I could get more tearing it down and selling the drives and >>>>> other CPU bits. >>>>> Ugh!. >>>>> JimD. >>>>> >>>>> barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> I see many Kaypros not sell at $40. I would value it past 100 >>>>>> personally but that's all dependent on your desire and disposable >>>>>> income. Its less common to find them with software although >>>>>> images can >>>>>> be found here and there. If it had full boxed manuals and >>>>>> software you >>>>>> could consider a little more but unfortunately they're fairly common >>>>>> systems still. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jim s >>>>>> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:55:12 >>>>>> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic >>>>>> Posts >>>>>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Kaypro II >>>>>> >>>>>> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are >>>>>> manuals >>>>>> and a modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any idea what to offer him? >>>>>> >>>>>> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the >>>>>> low end. >>>>>> >>>>>> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find >>>>>> out it >>>>>> is an estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an >>>>>> original >>>>>> owner, I figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some >>>>>> backing. >>>>>> >>>>>> any discussion appreciated. >>>>>> >>>>>> It looks like it has has booted and run cpm from one of the screens >>>>>> full >>>>>> of stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> jim >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 23 00:12:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 22:12:18 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> jimpdavis wrote: > In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, 130 > Miles west of Portland Or. You mean *east* of Portland. 70 miles west of Portland is extremely wet and salty, not at all suitable for use or storage of a Kaypro II. If you think Goldendale is in the middle of nowhere, you should try Moses Lake. A friend and I just drove from there to Portland yesterday, and went past Goldendale on highway 97. We wanted to stop a little south of you to see Maryhill Stonehenge, but it was too dark by the time we got there. I'll have to visit it on a future trip. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 00:19:44 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 22:19:44 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 6:55 PM, jim s wrote: > A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals and a > modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. > > Any idea what to offer him? > > I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. > > He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it is an > estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original owner, I > figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some backing. Looking at "completed" epay sales Kaypro IIs are selling for about $60 with Software or free shipping. Non running ones as low as $1. I always search "completed" sales to see what things are actually bringing. I ignore asking prices. $40 would be high for me and I would want to check that both drives worked, that it had its original keyboard cable and that all the keys worked on the keyboard...not to mention the crt worked OK and displayed correctly. A full set of SW (original disks - readable) is worth about $20, Boxed manuals, $5 to $10 each, software pamphlets $2 each, The modem $5. All my opinions. Generally I would want to pay less than what I quoted unless the condition was excellent. If it has special ROMs that would add something depending on the ROMs. Personally I prefer the Kaypro 10 with the Hard drive, they go for more. Kaypro 4s usually go for less. There are several models of Kaypro IIs (can be identified by case color many times) and the earliest is probably the most valuable to collectors. I like Kaypros, a great reliable CPM computer mostly used as a word processor. I know of several books written on them in their day. I have a couple of Kaypro IIs. Sold my Kaypro 10 to another collector years ago and wish I hadn't. I think it was the Xerox 820 that was based on the Bigboard. I have one of those too. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Aug 23 00:25:44 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 22:25:44 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50355388.27570.2D6330B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com>, <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com>, <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> <50355388.27570.2D6330B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5035BED8.3050608@gorge.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Aug 2012 at 21:29, jimpdavis wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, > ...just north of Bend/south of Yakima? That really is in the middle > of nowhere! > > --Chuck > > you almost have my g-zero coords. ;-) 253 Pothole Rd. Between two caldera lakes. Very interesting weather. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 00:48:46 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 22:48:46 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B52E.1070801@gmail.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com>, <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com>, <5035B52E.1070801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503561CE.30011.30DF5B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2012 at 21:44, mc68010 wrote: > I personally hate them. Seriously. It's just my personal opinion of > course. They are just like 99% of the rest of the cp/m boxes but, I > dislike pretty much everything about their design. I always felt like > it was designed in East Germany. Didn't they just rip off the big > board anyway ? There were some glorious CP/M and 8-bit systems produced by the Japanese. One of the major issues is that Japanese machines after about 1981 tended to use Shift-JIS and hi-res graphics for display, which CP/M-80 just wasn't up to. So there are a few proprietary OS. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 23 01:11:41 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B611.2020103@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <5035B611.2020103@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, jimpdavis wrote: > mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: >> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact >> (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and serviced >> them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. >> > I would like to get a copy of colossal cave and forget my troubles.. Are you familiar with the modern Interactive Fiction community? Lots of nice text-adventures there. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 01:18:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (mcguire at neurotica.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 02:18:55 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6DE60E75-4489-4BD2-94C5-3141B864E698@neurotica.com> I'm one. I ran it for many years and loved it. I think it's a great little OS and a really nice ecosystem grew up around it. The fact that it's still being ported to new hardware designs even today is a testament to its usefulness and elegant simplicity. I know many people who like CP/M. Don't discount the size of its fan base just yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Aug 23, 2012, at 12:49 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. > > I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It > may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. > > It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole lot > of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Yes, but when I try to see things your way it gives me a headache. --------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 01:24:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:24:14 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> from "mcguire@neurotica.com" at "Aug 23, 12 00:32:34 am", <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50356A1E.30928.32E6D1A@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2012 at 21:49, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole > lot of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. Not me. I used it since about 1.3. I did my share of ports and found the platform to be very limiting. CP/M Plus was getting there, as was MP/M II, but for the most popular, CP/M 2.2, it's hard to get excited about not much and a simplistic file management setup. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 23 01:40:00 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:40:00 +0200 Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <50317443.4040106@gorge.net> References: <50317443.4040106@gorge.net> Message-ID: <20120823084000.e144f6dc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:18:27 -0700 jimpdavis wrote: > Does this machine have any interesting (O/S) software freely available? Depending on the exact hardware configuration it may run 4.4BSD-Lite2 Unix. This is available from the archive of The Unix Heritage Society. I run it on my HP9000 433t. Most likely you will need NetBSD to bootstrap 4.4BSD-Lite2. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Aug 23 01:43:56 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:43:56 +0200 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120823084356.qre7wfjhkog8osw4@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting Cameron Kaiser : > It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole lot > of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. I think the problem with cp/m is/was, that there was not "the" cp/m machine. So everybody used it in many different machines. The cp/m itself was, I think pretty nice. I had a system in the early 80's which I liked. And, to be honest I have it actually on my list to make one again, probably even this year. Use sd-flash as floppy/disk replacement, give it a nice graphics option for vga screens, but still nice & small ... Cheers From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Aug 23 01:43:14 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:43:14 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5035D102.6070007@gorge.net> I didn't get a KB cable with this one. Well, I don't have it now. What did it look like? Paxton Hoag wrote: > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 6:55 PM, jim s wrote: >> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals and a >> modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >> >> Any idea what to offer him? >> >> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. >> >> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it is an >> estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original owner, I >> figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some backing. > > Looking at "completed" epay sales Kaypro IIs are selling for about $60 > with Software or free shipping. Non running ones as low as $1. I > always search "completed" sales to see what things are actually > bringing. I ignore asking prices. > > $40 would be high for me and I would want to check that both drives > worked, that it had its original keyboard cable and that all the keys > worked on the keyboard...not to mention the crt worked OK and > displayed correctly. > > A full set of SW (original disks - readable) is worth about $20, Boxed > manuals, $5 to $10 each, software pamphlets $2 each, The modem $5. All > my opinions. Generally I would want to pay less than what I quoted > unless the condition was excellent. > > If it has special ROMs that would add something depending on the ROMs. > > Personally I prefer the Kaypro 10 with the Hard drive, they go for > more. Kaypro 4s usually go for less. > > There are several models of Kaypro IIs (can be identified by case > color many times) and the earliest is probably the most valuable to > collectors. > > I like Kaypros, a great reliable CPM computer mostly used as a word > processor. I know of several books written on them in their day. I > have a couple of Kaypro IIs. Sold my Kaypro 10 to another collector > years ago and wish I hadn't. > > I think it was the Xerox 820 that was based on the Bigboard. I have > one of those too. > > Paxton > From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Aug 23 01:53:21 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:53:21 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5035D361.1030900@gorge.net> Quite correct, I would be out 75 miles, floating in the Pacific Ocean otherwise. ;-) Eric Smith wrote: > jimpdavis wrote: >> In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, 130 >> Miles west of Portland Or. > > You mean *east* of Portland. 70 miles west of Portland is extremely > wet and salty, not at all suitable for use or storage of a Kaypro II. > > If you think Goldendale is in the middle of nowhere, you should try > Moses Lake. A friend and I just drove from there to Portland > yesterday, and went past Goldendale on highway 97. We wanted to stop > a little south of you to see Maryhill Stonehenge, but it was too dark > by the time we got there. I'll have to visit it on a future trip. > > From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Aug 23 02:10:12 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 17:10:12 +1000 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503561CE.30011.30DF5B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com>, <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com>, <5035B52E.1070801@gmail.com> <503561CE.30011.30DF5B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 23/08/2012, at 3:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were some glorious CP/M and 8-bit systems produced by the > Japanese. One of the major issues is that Japanese machines after > about 1981 tended to use Shift-JIS and hi-res graphics for display, > which CP/M-80 just wasn't up to. So there are a few proprietary OS. Speaking of Japanese CP/M machines, does anybody have any info or (more importantly) boot disks/images for the Panasonic JD-800 series? I have a JD-850M, but don't have any info or boot disks. It has dual 8 inch floppies and apparently ran CP/M 2.2. They were sold here in Australia mainly for some accounting package. It's a mighty fine looking computer, and I'd love to get it running. Chris... From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Aug 23 02:15:32 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 03:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201208230715.DAA04572@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Making an HPIB 'drive' using flash memory cards (or USB sticks), a >>> microcontroller, et is one of those projects that gets talked about >>> here from time to time but which nobody has ever doen. >> I got started on building glue logic so a host with a parallel port >> could play HP-IB drive. > I was thinking more of something small/stnadalone. I might be, too, once I have enough experience with it. If I can't make a full desktop host speak HP-IB through glue logic (well, possibly aside from timing constraint reasons), I'm not going to be able to make a microcontroller do it. > I half-thought about using an R-pi. Banging the HPIB handshake on the > pins of htat user port connecotr (with buffres added, of course). > the R-pi has just about everything else you need, includign a USB > host interface. A USB host interface is only marginally more useful to me than it is to you. Serial line or Ethernet - preferbaly serial line *and* Ethernet - is what I'd want. And I wouldn't spend money on a pi in any case, not when I've got plenty of perfectly good hardware lying around. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Aug 23 05:09:27 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:09:27 -0400 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> Spammer! Does anyone trim the list? On 08/23/2012 04:39 AM, dennis.yurichev at gmail.com wrote: > Hi! > > Your email was taken from classiccmp/cctalk mailing list. > (So it's kind of SPAM). > I'm writing you because I'm looking for job and you'll see now why I do it in that way. > I'm good on reverse engineering of ancient software like those for MS-DOS, ancient Unices and/or for exotic platforms. > I'm From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 23 05:28:09 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:28:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, allison wrote: > On 08/23/2012 04:39 AM, dennis.yurichev at gmail.com wrote: >> Hi! >> >> Your email was taken from classiccmp/cctalk mailing list. (So it's kind >> of SPAM). I'm writing you because I'm looking for job and you'll see >> now why I do it in that way. I'm good on reverse engineering of ancient >> software like those for MS-DOS, ancient Unices and/or for exotic >> platforms. > > > Spammer! That's putting it mildly. > Does anyone trim the list? I think the list mod can. From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 23 06:10:00 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:10:00 +0000 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 06:09:27AM -0400, allison wrote: > Spammer! IIRC, he has posted on-topic posts on the list before. I don't consider it spamming when somebody asks for help from guys who might be able to help. I mean if you were out of a job don't you think you would appreciate some help or a friendly word? > Does anyone trim the list? Doesn't anybody care about anybody else anymore? There are real people posting on this list, with families and being broke or worse, going hungry is no fun. I am not happy to see anybody talented or willing to work out of a job, but I'd prefer to see posts like his vs. the arguments and flame fests that make up 90% of the rest of the traffic on this list. -- _ _ ._ _ _ <_> ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _| | ___ | ' ' || |/ | '| '_>/ . \/ | '/ . \/ . |/ ._> |_|_|_||_|\_|_.|_| \___/\_|_.\___/\___|\___. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 06:25:25 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:25:25 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 12:10, wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 06:09:27AM -0400, allison wrote: >> Spammer! > > IIRC, he has posted on-topic posts on the list before. I don't consider it > spamming when somebody asks for help from guys who might be able to help. I > mean if you were out of a job don't you think you would appreciate some help > or a friendly word? > >> Does anyone trim the list? > > Doesn't anybody care about anybody else anymore? There are real people > posting on this list, with families and being broke or worse, going hungry > is no fun. > > I am not happy to see anybody talented or willing to work out of a job, but > I'd prefer to see posts like his vs. the arguments and flame fests that make > up 90% of the rest of the traffic on this list. I got this, too. I am inclined to be forgiving this time. First-time offender and all. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 06:27:48 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:27:48 +0100 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 06:12, Eric Smith wrote: > jimpdavis wrote: >> >> In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, 130 Miles >> west of Portland Or. > > You mean *east* of Portland. 70 miles west of Portland is extremely wet and > salty, not at all suitable for use or storage of a Kaypro II. Precisely mine own thought, and my USanian geography is hazy... I thought Portland was on the west coast? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Aug 23 06:35:42 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:35:42 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 12:10, wrote: > IIRC, he has posted on-topic posts on the list before. I don't consider it > spamming when somebody asks for help from guys who might be able to help. I > mean if you were out of a job don't you think you would appreciate some help > or a friendly word? I agree. It's on-topic (as far as I am concerned) to ask about jobs working with classic computers. I only regret I don't have one for him. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Aug 23 06:35:42 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:35:42 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 12:10, wrote: > IIRC, he has posted on-topic posts on the list before. I don't consider it > spamming when somebody asks for help from guys who might be able to help. I > mean if you were out of a job don't you think you would appreciate some help > or a friendly word? I agree. It's on-topic (as far as I am concerned) to ask about jobs working with classic computers. I only regret I don't have one for him. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 06:38:25 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:38:25 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: I got it too, as one who is between sensible jobs I know the situation at first hand. Dave Caroline also does reverse engineering and databases From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 23 06:45:20 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. > > I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It > may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M system. Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M 2.2 on this system and with its second bank of 64KB available as a RAMdisk, it was quite snappy. MM also had the capability of defining virtual drives as other CP/M formats, so you could have, for example, a D: drive set up as a Kaypro or Osborne format. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jws at jwsss.com Thu Aug 23 07:46:08 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:46:08 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> Alspa gets my vote. I have three of them. Besides being nearly the size of a case with two 1/2 high 8" floppies and the floppies being the double sided 2mb Mitsubishi drives, they have a connector which allows them to use Corvus drives for a hard drive. Just plug in 5 or 10mb and you are good to go. There is a connector to which you have to add a switch to select the corvus for booting, or a jumper if you don't want to dual boot between floppy and hard drive. A very early problem which the IBM solved with the bios in software, but had only a hardware solution at the time of the Alspa. The otrona isn't bad either. Jim On 8/22/2012 9:49 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. > I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It > may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. > > It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole lot > of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 23 07:56:47 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:56:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 23 August 2012 12:10, wrote: >> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 06:09:27AM -0400, allison wrote: >>> Spammer! >> >> IIRC, he has posted on-topic posts on the list before. I don't consider it >> spamming when somebody asks for help from guys who might be able to help. I >> mean if you were out of a job don't you think you would appreciate some help >> or a friendly word? >> >>> Does anyone trim the list? >> >> Doesn't anybody care about anybody else anymore? There are real people >> posting on this list, with families and being broke or worse, going hungry >> is no fun. >> >> I am not happy to see anybody talented or willing to work out of a job, but >> I'd prefer to see posts like his vs. the arguments and flame fests that make >> up 90% of the rest of the traffic on this list. > > I got this, too. > > I am inclined to be forgiving this time. First-time offender and all. Occasional requests sent to the list are one thing. Harvesting email addresses to spam with an off-list message is another. Doing the later gets around such things as email list management filters and means that for people like me, we got his message directly in our catch-all inbox vs a predefined mbox for email list traffic. From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 23 07:56:50 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:56:50 +0000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 23 08:02:54 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Aug 22, 12 10:12:18 pm" Message-ID: <201208231302.q7ND2sQa12648512@floodgap.com> > > In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, 130 > > Miles west of Portland Or. > > You mean *east* of Portland. 70 miles west of Portland is extremely wet > and salty, not at all suitable for use or storage of a Kaypro II. > > If you think Goldendale is in the middle of nowhere, you should try > Moses Lake. A friend and I just drove from there to Portland yesterday, > and went past Goldendale on highway 97. We wanted to stop a little > south of you to see Maryhill Stonehenge, but it was too dark by the time > we got there. I'll have to visit it on a future trip. Eastern Oregon is full of little nowhere places, too. US 395 between Lakeview and Burns is amazingly lonely. Try the amazing burgh of Wagontire, where the population grew between 2005 when I was there first and 2008 when I was there most recently ... from two to three people. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Microsoft Windows is the IBM 3270 of the 21st century. --------------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 08:14:16 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:14:16 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:56 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? I suppose it depends on your definition of "ready-to-go". The N8VEM homebrew SBC (and its S100 cousins) run CP/M, but as far as I know they're only available as bare boards (you supply the chips and discretes). Still, they're very nice bare boards designed to be hand-soldered, so they're very well laid out, have good silkscreen and have only through-hole parts. So it could be a fun weekend project to put one together! - Dave From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Aug 23 08:19:06 2012 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Rich Cini) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:19:06 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> Do you mean hobbyist or COTS? There are several hobby SBCs that can do it, including the P112 and N8VEM. There are 68k and 8086 boards as well. Rich Cini Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:56 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 08:41:59 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Why not just, well you know, have a Kaypro? > > (what a concept!) > I've got two! (a 4-84 and a 10). Head over to http://www.microcodeconsulting.com/z80/kayplus.htm and make yourself a KayPLUS ROM. It makes for a very nice, inexpensive update. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 08:44:09 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: > At least out here on the west coast you would be lucky to get $40 for Kaypro. > There really isn't much love for the all in one cp/m boxes in general. They > never really made any emotional connection with people. All work no play. > The Kaypro were about the least interesting of the lot too. > > I dunno, I love the little buggers. That may have something to do with the number of BBSes that ran on them in my youth though. *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 08:47:23 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: > > I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact > (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and serviced > them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. I've got a pair of 1200 baud internal Hayes compatible smartmodems you might be interested in. I'd love to find one of those add-on boards that would allow IDE or CF to be used - the HD in my 10 isn't going to last forever. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 08:49:56 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. > > I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It > may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. > > It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole lot > of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. I cut my teeth on a Royal AlphaTronic CP/M machine and that's where I got my love of CP/M from. Unfortunately, the machine somehow got lost when I moved in 2006 and I haven't been able to find a replacement. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 23 08:59:32 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:59:32 +0000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20120823135932.GE16844@zoho.com> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:14:16AM -0400, David Riley wrote: > On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:56 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > > > Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? > > I suppose it depends on your definition of "ready-to-go". A complete, preassembled SBC. > The N8VEM homebrew SBC (and its S100 cousins) run CP/M, but as far > as I know they're only available as bare boards (you supply > the chips and discretes). Still, they're very nice bare boards > designed to be hand-soldered, so they're very well laid out, > have good silkscreen and have only through-hole parts. So it > could be a fun weekend project to put one together! I've been admiring those and I would love to build a couple of them but I can't get to my tools now and where I live I can't get parts easily. So if I get anything it has to be "ready to go". From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 23 09:01:52 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:01:52 +0000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:19:06AM -0400, Rich Cini wrote: > Do you mean hobbyist or COTS? There are several hobby SBCs that can do it, including the P112 and N8VEM. There are 68k and 8086 boards as well. I don't know what COTS is. I read about several nice looking kits but I was wondering if there's anything you can buy complete, over the counter these days or if everybody is running CP/M on old boxes. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:03:15 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035D102.6070007@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <5035D102.6070007@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, jimpdavis wrote: > I didn't get a KB cable with this one. Well, I don't have it now. What did it > look like? > It looks like a coiled telephone handset cord. If memory serves, a handset cord will work as a replacement, but it would be a good idea to wrap a ferrite core to one end. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:08:02 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 06:09:27AM -0400, allison wrote: >> Spammer! > > IIRC, he has posted on-topic posts on the list before. I don't consider it > spamming when somebody asks for help from guys who might be able to help. I > mean if you were out of a job don't you think you would appreciate some help > or a friendly word? > Not to mention that he was also very polite about it. Cut the guy some slack. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:11:15 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. >> >> I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It >> may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. > > While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M system. > Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M 2.2 on this system and with its > second bank of 64KB available as a RAMdisk, it was quite snappy. MM also had > the capability of defining virtual drives as other CP/M formats, so you could > have, for example, a D: drive set up as a Kaypro or Osborne format. > The only issue I have with the Model 4 (I've got one as well) is the lack of { and } keys. Makes it damn difficult to write C code. :) (but that just makes Turbo Pascal 3 even more attractive!) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 09:30:24 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:30:24 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2012, at 10:01 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:19:06AM -0400, Rich Cini wrote: >> Do you mean hobbyist or COTS? There are several hobby SBCs that can do it, > including the P112 and N8VEM. There are 68k and 8086 boards as well. > > I don't know what COTS is. Commercial-Off-The-Shelf. Basically meaning anything that you can buy preassembled online or in stores, which is what you're looking for. However, the US Government seems to believe it means anything semi-custom that will take an amount of glue logic equal to or greater than the device itself to integrate into any realistic system. - Dave From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Aug 23 09:30:26 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:30:26 -0500 Subject: Coffee and ringing (was: Re: Hearing ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 0:06 -0500 8/15/12, Chuck wrote: >So, does anyone know of any publicly-owned hearing aid manufacturers? >Looks like a growth industry... > >--Chuck >(with some ringing in his ears) Unpopular suggestion of the day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus Avoidance of caffeine, nicotine, or salt can reduce symptoms, Anecdotally, it works for me (and I'm cutting out caffeine most days) and for a friend of mine (who cut out complaining about his "horrible Tinnitus" once I told him the cure (but only after verifying it via a 3-day coffee detox period)). Usually at this point I would say "hope this helps" but in this case ... ? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 09:32:58 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:19:06AM -0400, Rich Cini wrote: >> Do you mean hobbyist or COTS? There are several hobby SBCs that can do it, > including the P112 and N8VEM. There are 68k and 8086 boards as well. > > I don't know what COTS is. I read about several nice looking kits but I was > wondering if there's anything you can buy complete, over the counter these > days or if everybody is running CP/M on old boxes. COTS == Commercial Off The Shelf. Check this out: http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=18 It's Vince Briel's Altair 8800 Micro. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 23 09:43:22 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:43:22 +0000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120823144322.GG16844@zoho.com> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 07:11:15AM -0700, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > > >On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >>> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. > >> > >>I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It > >>may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. > > > > While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M > >system. Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M 2.2 on this > >system and with its second bank of 64KB available as a RAMdisk, it > >was quite snappy. MM also had the capability of defining virtual > >drives as other CP/M formats, so you could have, for example, a D: > >drive set up as a Kaypro or Osborne format. > > > The only issue I have with the Model 4 (I've got one as well) is the > lack of { and } keys. Makes it damn difficult to write C code. :) Sounds like a feature! -- Proud Ex-Radio Shack Employee From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 23 09:44:19 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:44:19 +0000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20120823144419.GH16844@zoho.com> > > I don't know what COTS is. > > Commercial-Off-The-Shelf. Basically meaning anything that you > can buy preassembled online or in stores, which is what you're > looking for. Oh thanks. Then yeah, COTS! From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Aug 23 09:47:28 2012 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Rich Cini) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:47:28 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <15DA9CBF-0664-41B3-BBC2-10639A733014@verizon.net> "COTS" is commercial off the shelf, meaning ready to go out of the box. Plug in and play so to speak. I personally like the kits because I like to build them, get them working, and support other vintage computing hobbyists and their projects. I'm not aware of a true out of the box solution. Maybe there is one but I'm not aware of it. Rich Cini Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2012, at 10:01 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:19:06AM -0400, Rich Cini wrote: >> Do you mean hobbyist or COTS? There are several hobby SBCs that can do it, > including the P112 and N8VEM. There are 68k and 8086 boards as well. > > I don't know what COTS is. I read about several nice looking kits but I was > wondering if there's anything you can buy complete, over the counter these > days or if everybody is running CP/M on old boxes. > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 23 09:49:23 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M system. >> Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M 2.2 on this system and with its >> second bank of 64KB available as a RAMdisk, it was quite snappy. MM also >> had the capability of defining virtual drives as other CP/M formats, so you >> could have, for example, a D: drive set up as a Kaypro or Osborne format. >> > The only issue I have with the Model 4 (I've got one as well) is the lack of > { and } keys. Makes it damn difficult to write C code. :) (but that just > makes Turbo Pascal 3 even more attractive!) Not a problem - CTRL-< and CTRL-> give you the curly braces. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 09:54:59 2012 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:54:59 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Personally, I'm partial to the Amstrad PCW line.While it was marketed as a dedicated word processor in much of the world, it had gobs of RAM (at least 256KB), high-resolution monochrome graphics (720x256) and shipped with a very nice CP/M Plus implementation which included a better-than-average BASIC as well as DRI LOGO and the GSX graphics libraries. The non-standard 3 inch floppies are a bit of a drag, but it was fairly easy to add 3.5 inch drives and even hard drives were available. Mike From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 23 10:20:39 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:20:39 +0000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20120823152039.GA1866@zoho.com> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 07:32:58AM -0700, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > > >On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:19:06AM -0400, Rich Cini wrote: > >>Do you mean hobbyist or COTS? There are several hobby SBCs that can do it, > >including the P112 and N8VEM. There are 68k and 8086 boards as well. > > > >I don't know what COTS is. I read about several nice looking kits but I was > >wondering if there's anything you can buy complete, over the counter these > >days or if everybody is running CP/M on old boxes. > > COTS == Commercial Off The Shelf. Oh, I thought that only applied to suits. Lemme see if Dave needs one, we'll get a 2 for one sale going next time I buy one for myself ;-) > Check this out: http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=18 > > It's Vince Briel's Altair 8800 Micro. That's sweet! I heard somebody was recreating the Altair. The VGA output is a really nice idea. How much is a real Altair? Is the repro worth it? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 23 10:30:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:30:59 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50364CB3.8080207@bitsavers.org> On 8/22/12 9:49 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole lot > of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. > They mostly hang out on comp.os.cpm and the N8VEM mailing list. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 10:53:51 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > >>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >>> While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M system. >>> Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M 2.2 on this system and with >>> its second bank of 64KB available as a RAMdisk, it was quite snappy. MM >>> also had the capability of defining virtual drives as other CP/M formats, >>> so you could have, for example, a D: drive set up as a Kaypro or Osborne >>> format. >>> >> The only issue I have with the Model 4 (I've got one as well) is the lack >> of { and } keys. Makes it damn difficult to write C code. :) (but that >> just makes Turbo Pascal 3 even more attractive!) > > Not a problem - CTRL-< and CTRL-> give you the curly braces. I didn't know that - thanks for the tip! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 10:55:15 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823152039.GA1866@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> <20120823152039.GA1866@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, microcode at zoho.com wrote: >> Check this out: http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=18 >> >> It's Vince Briel's Altair 8800 Micro. > > That's sweet! I heard somebody was recreating the Altair. The VGA output > is a really nice idea. How much is a real Altair? Is the repro worth it? > If you're after a small blinkenlights machine, I'd say so. Keep in mind that this replica is VERY small in comparison to the real thing. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 23 11:04:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:04:43 -0600 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: In article <20120823111000.GC16844 at zoho.com>, microcode at zoho.com writes: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 06:09:27AM -0400, allison wrote: > > Spammer! > > IIRC, he has posted on-topic posts on the list before. I don't consider it > spamming when somebody asks for help from guys who might be able to help. I > mean if you were out of a job don't you think you would appreciate some help > or a friendly word? Yeah, I didn't consider it spam per se, just "unwanted email". But hey, my email address is on my messages and anyone can send me unwanted email. Many people have broadened their definition of spam to "any email I don't want!". If you don't want anyone to send you unwanted email, then you should never post to any mailing list or newsgroup with your real email address. Of course, generally you can't post to a mailing list except from the email address used to read that mailing list. I suppose you could subscribe to a throwaway address that you use for posting and only read messages on the web, but it seems like a lot of bother just to avoid the occasional unexpected email. > I am not happy to see anybody talented or willing to work out of a job, but > I'd prefer to see posts like his vs. the arguments and flame fests that make > up 90% of the rest of the traffic on this list. I was disappointed to see that the message was ill-formatted and obviously generic. Had the person taken the time to format the message to read nicely (remember, you only get one chance to make a first impression) and bothered to make the email specific to me and not a generic "let me just hit everyone on the mailing list with this identical message", I might have bothered to read it. I almost sent a chastising reply, but decided against it, because as you say, people are looking for work and it's a tough environment out there. I happen to work at a company that is aggressively hiring, but not for people in the Ukraine. (Seriously? You're emailing me from the other side of the globe asking for work?) I have interviewed more people in the past year than I have in the past 30 years. I am surprised at the number of senior people that haven't kept their skills current and claim expertise in areas where they really just don't know it. Perhaps in the particular case I'm thinking about, the guy just didn't want the job, but I never heard a person say "I don't know" or "I don't remember" so many times since Ollie North was testifying before the Iran-Contra investigation in Congress. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 11:19:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:19:49 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208231302.q7ND2sQa12648512@floodgap.com> References: <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Aug 22, 12 10:12:18 pm", <201208231302.q7ND2sQa12648512@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5035F5B5.14724.28ED0D@cclist.sydex.com> > If you think Goldendale is in the middle of nowhere, you should try > Moses Lake. A friend and I just drove from there to Portland > yesterday, and went past Goldendale on highway 97. We wanted to > stop a little south of you to see Maryhill Stonehenge, but it was > too dark by the time we got there. I'll have to visit it on a > future trip. When my wife and I need to travel the length of the Gorge from Portland to wherever and have the time, rather than taking that rat race called I-84, we'll take Washington 14 (Lewis and Clark) on the north side. Usually pretty quiet with ample opportunities to stop and take in the scenery. Maryhill Stonehenge is a spooky place. We make it a point to go over the cable bridge between Pasco and Kennewick--it was designed by a good friend of mine who still calls it "his bridge". --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Aug 23 11:21:57 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:21:57 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50356A1E.30928.32E6D1A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> from "mcguire@neurotica.com" at "Aug 23, 12 00:32:34 am", <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50356A1E.30928.32E6D1A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> On 08/23/2012 02:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Aug 2012 at 21:49, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole >> lot of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. > Not me. I used it since about 1.3. I did my share of ports and > found the platform to be very limiting. CP/M Plus was getting there, > as was MP/M II, but for the most popular, CP/M 2.2, it's hard to get > excited about not much and a simplistic file management setup. > > --Chuck > > I've ported it to most anything 8080/8085/NSC800/Z80/z180/z280 and its a fine OS for its day with loads of aps. Used and portd many of the improved clones. It's biggest limitation for me was the flat filesystem. It made large disks awkward (aside from the 8mb limit CP/M2) for lots of files. That and extended memory support in later versions was not transparent to the aps. However for the day [feom V1.3 though 1985ish] it was a bout the best of the 8080/z80 OSs that could be ported to anything. Note if you point out NS*dos or TRS80 LDOS [and the like] that doesn't count as it was hardware and vendor specific. Unlike many when CP/M came about in the mid 70s I'd experience with OS/8 and TOPS-10 and wished that CP/M was more. But like I said for the time and that CPU group swas the best for a long while. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 11:25:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:25:29 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com>, <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com>, Message-ID: <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2012 at 10:54, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Personally, I'm partial to the Amstrad PCW line.While it was marketed > as a dedicated word processor in much of the world, it had gobs of RAM > (at least 256KB), high-resolution monochrome graphics (720x256) and > shipped with a very nice CP/M Plus implementation which included a > better-than-average BASIC as well as DRI LOGO and the GSX graphics > libraries. The non-standard 3 inch floppies are a bit of a drag, but > it was fairly easy to add 3.5 inch drives and even hard drives were > available. Yup, got a "Joyce" here (120V US version, probably sold by Sears). The 3" drive has been replaced with a 3.5" one (there's a gotcha with the power cable--same connector as a 3.5" but the +5 and +12 are interchanged. The Joyce does require a "ready" signal, so you need to either use a drive that provides one or tie it active). Mine has 512K of memory installed. The downside is the utter lack of a standard peripheral interface (e.g. Centronics parallel or RS232) or a way to modify the boot code, which appears to be contained in the ASIC printer interface. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Aug 23 11:27:14 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:27:14 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <503659E2.10604@verizon.net> On 08/23/2012 01:19 AM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 6:55 PM, jim s wrote: >> A fellow has a Kaypro II here he wants an offer on. There are manuals and a >> modem, cables, works, floppies and high expectations. >> >> Any idea what to offer him? >> >> I see numbers from 50 to 600 on epay, but figure this is a the low end. >> >> He was asking 400, and is possibly the first owner. If I find out it is an >> estate sell out I can probably handle it, but if it is an original owner, I >> figure i should have a good idea what to offer with some backing. > > Looking at "completed" epay sales Kaypro IIs are selling for about $60 > with Software or free shipping. Non running ones as low as $1. I > always search "completed" sales to see what things are actually > bringing. I ignore asking prices. > I have 3 kaypros [ a 2, II and a 4/84] and all were pickups for free. Good machines all and the 4/84 has Advent turborom, handyman rom, 1mb ramdisk, and the Advent personality board. All that in the 4/84 makes it the most useful of the group and the fastest. I still use the 4/84 along with my AmproLB+ and the hot rodded NS* S100 machine. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Aug 23 11:31:09 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:31:09 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <7EDA43DC-0304-4613-A1C5-1C959F8EA365@mactec.com.au> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <7EDA43DC-0304-4613-A1C5-1C959F8EA365@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <50365ACD.4030401@verizon.net> On 08/23/2012 12:53 AM, Chris Pye wrote: > On 23/08/2012, at 2:32 PM, mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: > >> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and serviced them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. >> >> -Dave > > Indeed. Compared to other CP/M portables (like the Osborne), the Kaypros were very well made and easy to work on. No crappy plastic parts. My favourite CP/M machine, well that I own anyway.. > > Chris > I agree on that basis. However as the bast CP/M machine I'd say the AmproLB+ as the scsi interface made it easiest to add a big hard disk[45mb fujitsu 3.5"]. All others require GIDE or an expensive controller and MFM or RLL disk. A close second was the Micromint SB180 with the SCSI board. Smaller, lower power, and 256K banked ram using 64180 [z180] cpu. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 11:41:31 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:41:31 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B611.2020103@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <5035B611.2020103@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:48 AM, jimpdavis wrote: > I would like to get a copy of colossal cave and forget my troubles.. http://ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXgamesXcpm.html Enjoy, -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 11:42:26 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120823093846.R85589@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It *is* odd that CP/M induces relatively little nostalgia and a whole lot > of nausea. You'd think that it would have its rabid partisans. little nostalgia??!? I went to 801 Lighthouse Ave. in Pacific Grove! I peered out the upstairs front window to try to see what it would look like to see IBM suits coming up the walkway. I was not the first "pilgrimage". I also went by 716 and 734, but they weren't interesting. I have never been a rabid partisan of CP/M. But, it was an opportunity. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 11:49:46 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:49:46 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50365F2A.80509@gmail.com> On 08/23/2012 12:12 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > jimpdavis wrote: >> In the middle of nowhere. A place called Goldendale Wa. USA, 130 Miles >> west of Portland Or. > > You mean *east* of Portland. 70 miles west of Portland is extremely wet and > salty, not at all suitable for use or storage of a Kaypro II. > > If you think Goldendale is in the middle of nowhere, you should try Moses > Lake. Over 20,000 people, apparently - quite a bit more than Goldendale (or my nearest town). > We wanted to stop a little south of you to > see Maryhill Stonehenge, but it was too dark by the time we got there. I'll > have to visit it on a future trip. Hopefully it's a bit less touristy and commercialized than the real thing :) cheers Jules From george at rachors.com Thu Aug 23 11:43:56 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:43:56 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> <20120823152039.GA1866@zoho.com> Message-ID: I built one of Vince's replica one's (Apple 1 equivalent) at Kansasfest last month. I have my eye on this Altair Replica. George george at rachors.com On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:55 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > >>> Check this out: http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=18 >>> >>> It's Vince Briel's Altair 8800 Micro. >> >> That's sweet! I heard somebody was recreating the Altair. The VGA output >> is a really nice idea. How much is a real Altair? Is the repro worth it? >> > If you're after a small blinkenlights machine, I'd say so. Keep in mind that this replica is VERY small in comparison to the real thing. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] > From microcode at zoho.com Thu Aug 23 11:48:05 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 16:48:05 +0000 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20120823164805.GB1866@zoho.com> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:04:43AM -0600, Richard wrote: > > > I am not happy to see anybody talented or willing to work out of a job, but > > I'd prefer to see posts like his vs. the arguments and flame fests that make > > up 90% of the rest of the traffic on this list. > > I was disappointed to see that the message was ill-formatted and > obviously generic. Ill-formatted, true. Generic, well, I don't think he is a native English speaker and that makes it a lot harder. How's your Ukranian? I couldn't write him a letter any better than what he sent me. I just read it and tried to help. If everybody puts aside the formalities and tries to help maybe it will work out. > I happen to work at a company that is aggressively hiring, but not for > people in the Ukraine. (Seriously? You're emailing me from the other > side of the globe asking for work?) Why not? It's a global market. I have worked (telecommuted) for companies in three different countries in the past ten years. The American job market is still the best tech job market and probably the best market period, despite how bad it is. It's a good first place to look no matter where you live. I say this as an American living overseas. It turns out none of the places I found were American companies but that doesn't change the fact that the best odds are with an American company for people who can't find work where they live. > I have interviewed more people in the past year than I have in the past 30 > years. I am surprised at the number of senior people that haven't kept > their skills current and claim expertise in areas where they really just > don't know it. Perhaps in the particular case I'm thinking about, the guy > just didn't want the job, but I never heard a person say "I don't know" or "I > don't remember" so many times since Ollie North was testifying before > the Iran-Contra investigation in Congress. I think it would be a good idea if people are working for companies that are hiring to at least mention on the list what they are looking for. You never know who you might find, and most good hires come through one kind of networking or another. People on this list are at least interested in technology for a hobby instead of just somebody who went to college because he thought he could make money as a programmer, engineer, etc. What goes around comes around...so do good and get some good on ya! -- _ _ ._ _ _ <_> ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _| | ___ | ' ' || |/ | '| '_>/ . \/ | '/ . \/ . |/ ._> |_|_|_||_|\_|_.|_| \___/\_|_.\___/\___|\___. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 11:52:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:52:14 -0700 Subject: Coffee and ringing (was: Re: Hearing ...) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <5035FD4E.20660.469AE3@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2012 at 9:30, Mark Tapley wrote: > Avoidance of caffeine, nicotine, or salt can reduce symptoms, > > Anecdotally, it works for me (and I'm cutting out caffeine most days) > and for a friend of mine (who cut out complaining about his "horrible > Tinnitus" once I told him the cure (but only after verifying it via a > 3-day coffee detox period)). Mark, I restrict myself to one cuppa in the morning. I've never smoked and prepare just about all of our food myself (very sparing on salt). It does seem to be aggravated by my hypertension meds, but my doctor and I are tinkering a bit to find something that works. What I find that helps more than anything (and keeps my BP low) is getting enough sleep. This is the hardest for me as I'm a natural nightowl and have pretty much run my entire life on adrenaline. The underlying cause is probably too much noise--between industrial noise, data centers, chainsaws and brass bands, my ears are complaining that I've abused them. And they're right about that. A moral for you young'uns. Take care of your hearing.. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 12:06:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120823100412.H85589@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: > At least out here on the west coast you would be lucky to get $40 for > Kaypro. There really isn't much love for the all in one cp/m boxes in > general. They never really made any emotional connection with people. > All work no play. The Kaypro were about the least interesting of the lot > too. The Kaypro case looked too "homemade" for some people. The Osborne changed THAT. Why didn't the Otrona catch on? Charlie Chaplin [clone] carrying a table with computer down stairs wasn't enough? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 12:08:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:08:53 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com>, <50356A1E.30928.32E6D1A@cclist.sydex.com>, <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50360135.31784.55D832@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2012 at 12:21, Allison wrote: > It's biggest limitation for me was the flat filesystem. It made > large disks awkward (aside from the 8mb limit CP/M2) for lots of > files. That and extended memory support in later versions was > not transparent to the aps. Going to a different file system was about the smartest thing that (SCP/Microsoft) ever did. The rest of the MS-DOS and CP/M API is pretty weak, but that filesystem made a huge difference. People may gripe about Microsoft "stealing" from DRI, but if I were in the driver's seat at IBM, there would be no questions as to which system was superior. And what is CP/M or MS-DOS but a file management facility? There was TurboDOS, but it wasn't even close to being an open system. We did our own OS, complete with ISAM support and loadable device drivers. Again, the CP/M internal interface didn't envision that people would want to support other devices than a simple console, printer, reader and punch. As such stuff was available on mainframe OS, I can't say that DRI was forward-looking. ZCPR was a big CLI improvment, but DRI evidently didn't think it was worth emulating. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 12:12:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035D361.1030900@gorge.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> <5035D361.1030900@gorge.net> Message-ID: <20120823101145.H85589@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, jimpdavis wrote: > Quite correct, I would be out 75 miles, floating in the Pacific Ocean > otherwise. ;-) A Kaypro would probably float for a little while. Once it took on water, it would pull you down. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 23 12:28:57 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >>> The only issue I have with the Model 4 (I've got one as well) is the lack >>> of { and } keys. Makes it damn difficult to write C code. :) (but that >>> just makes Turbo Pascal 3 even more attractive!) >> >> Not a problem - CTRL-< and CTRL-> give you the curly braces. > > I didn't know that - thanks for the tip! That's specifically for Montezuma Micro CP/M for the Model 4. Other key combinations will give you: ESC SHIFT CLEAR [ CTRL ( \ CTRL / ] CTRL ) | CTRL 1 ~ CTRL 3 ^ CTRL 5 ` CTRL 7 _ CTRL - DEL CTRL CLEAR I wrote much of the Micro Magic BBS on that Model 4. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 12:30:47 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> <20120823152039.GA1866@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, George Rachor wrote: > I built one of Vince's replica one's (Apple 1 equivalent) at Kansasfest last month. I have my eye on this Altair Replica. > It looks like he may get all the Imsai assets from Todd F. and start building new machines. That would just kick ass. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 12:32:49 2012 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:32:49 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Aug 2012 at 10:54, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Yup, got a "Joyce" here (120V US version, probably sold by Sears). > The 3" drive has been replaced with a 3.5" one (there's a gotcha with > the power cable--same connector as a 3.5" but the +5 and +12 are > interchanged. The Joyce does require a "ready" signal, so you need > to either use a drive that provides one or tie it active). > > Mine has 512K of memory installed. The downside is the utter lack of > a standard peripheral interface (e.g. Centronics parallel or RS232) > or a way to modify the boot code, which appears to be contained in > the ASIC printer interface. The non-standard connectors are a bit of a problem, however, the expansion interfaces do appear to have been available (at least for those willing to import from the UK and Europe) In general, I'm a big fan of Amstrad hardware. The CPC home computer line was excellent (if you could live with CGA-class text, it even made a decent CP/M system itself) as were the NC series proto-PDAs. Even their PC clones were better than average (The Tandy 1000 line is the only other home-oriented clone line that came close IMHO) The PCW is just a further manifestation of how good Amstrad's stuff was in the mid-80s through the early 90s. Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 12:37:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823144322.GG16844@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <20120823144322.GG16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <20120823103607.R85589@shell.lmi.net> > > The only issue I have with the Model 4 (I've got one as well) is the > > lack of { and } keys. Makes it damn difficult to write C code. :) > Sounds like a feature! It was pretty easy to add keys to the Model 1. Remember Michael Shrayer's Electric Pencil? From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 12:53:57 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Coffee and ringing (was: Re: Hearing ...) In-Reply-To: <5035FD4E.20660.469AE3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <5035FD4E.20660.469AE3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The underlying cause is probably too much noise--between industrial > noise, data centers, chainsaws and brass bands, my ears are > complaining that I've abused them. A less commonly known cause of tinnitus (for the "lucky" few sensitive to it) is the antibiotic Erythromycin and other related drugs in the macrolides family. I lost most of my mid-band hearing in both ears and developed a permanent tinnitus after being treated for a sinus infection in 1990. It's a rare side-effect, but I managed to win the lottery. Disclaimer: I played rock music for 25 years up to that point in time, but always wore ear protection. Prior to my ill-fated treatment, I could still hear a 15.7x KHz. flyback transformer from two rooms away. Now, it's just permanent crickets - I get mid-summer all year 'round :-). Steve -- From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 23 13:10:57 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:10:57 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503659E2.10604@verizon.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <503659E2.10604@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50367231.8020909@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > and the 4/84 has Advent turborom, handyman rom, > 1mb ramdisk, and the Advent personality board. All that in the 4/84 > makes > it the most useful of the group and the fastest. What dp the Advent turborom, handyman rom, and Advent personality board do? From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Aug 23 13:06:05 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:06:05 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823101145.H85589@shell.lmi.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> <5035A950.2020603@gorge.net> <5035AB65.9050008@neurotica.com> <5035B1B7.9060007@gorge.net> <5035BBB2.9030909@brouhaha.com> <5035D361.1030900@gorge.net> <20120823101145.H85589@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5036710D.9040206@gorge.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, jimpdavis wrote: >> Quite correct, I would be out 75 miles, floating in the Pacific Ocean >> otherwise. ;-) > A Kaypro would probably float for a little while. Once it took on water, > it would pull you down. > > > > I think the proper description is "Boat Anchor". From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 23 13:14:07 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:14:07 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <503672EF.4020408@brouhaha.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M > system. Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M 2.2 on this system > and with its second bank of 64KB available as a RAMdisk, it was quite > snappy. MM also had the capability of defining virtual drives as > other CP/M formats, so you could have, for example, a D: drive set up > as a Kaypro or Osborne format. Sounds quite nice. Is MM CP/M and its documentation in an accessible archive anywhere? From david at classiccomputing.com Thu Aug 23 13:11:25 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:11:25 -0500 Subject: Announcing the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a2bc7bd3389c3cba9dd3fd3bf5ad142.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> The Atlanta Historical Computing Society has decided to host the first ever Vintage Computer Festival Southeast. It is tentatively scheduled for Saturday, February 9th, from 10 AM - 7 PM. We're also planning a Friday night dinner / hang-out, plus an after-show / cleanup dinner too. Lonnie Mimms, a local commercial property manager (and owner of perhaps the single largest personal computer collection in the SE) has agreed to furnish us a venue! Hopefully, he will also setup some computers for display and give at least one tour of his collection. There are lots of details to work out and we're just getting started. In any case, I'm excited and I wanted to start spreading the word. This will be great! Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian - Author, "The Complete Historically Brewed" - Founder, Atlanta Historical Computing Society - "Classic Computing Show" podcast - "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast - "Retro Computing Roundtable" podcast ClassicComputing.com | atlhcs.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 13:29:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:29:43 -0400 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <50367697.4010206@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2012 07:35 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> IIRC, he has posted on-topic posts on the list before. I don't consider it >> spamming when somebody asks for help from guys who might be able to help. I >> mean if you were out of a job don't you think you would appreciate some help >> or a friendly word? > > I agree. It's on-topic (as far as I am concerned) to ask about jobs > working with classic computers. > > I only regret I don't have one for him. Seconded. This guy is one of us. If you cannot help or are not interested, just hit delete and be done with it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 13:31:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:31:00 -0400 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <503676E4.8000905@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2012 07:38 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > I got it too, as one who is between sensible jobs I know the situation > at first hand. Yep. I went without steady/decent work for almost four years before I got the hell out of Florida. It's easy to forget how hard things can be. Let's give this guy some slack. Or better yet, some work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 13:56:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:56:10 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50367CCA.1010703@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2012 09:47 AM, geneb wrote: >> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact >> (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and >> serviced them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. > > I've got a pair of 1200 baud internal Hayes compatible smartmodems you > might be interested in. Sure! > I'd love to find one of those add-on boards that would allow IDE or CF > to be used - the HD in my 10 isn't going to last forever. :( GIDE works in the Kaypros I think. The drive in my '10 died about two years ago. :-( I have another one, I just have to get around to installing it, and figure out if I want to change out the ROM in the process. Is there one that I can get an image for that you would recommend for the '10? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 23 13:58:05 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503672EF.4020408@brouhaha.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <503672EF.4020408@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Mike Loewen wrote: >> While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M system. >> Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M 2.2 on this system and with its >> second bank of 64KB available as a RAMdisk, it was quite snappy. MM also >> had the capability of defining virtual drives as other CP/M formats, so you >> could have, for example, a D: drive set up as a Kaypro or Osborne format. > > Sounds quite nice. Is MM CP/M and its documentation in an accessible archive > anywhere? The manuals (reference and programming) are available here: http://www.manmrk.net/tutorials/TRS80/Software/cpm/index.htm Disk images in DMK format can be found here: http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/trs80-4p/trs80Archives_cpm/ MM CP/M works quite well in emulators such as 'xtrs' and 'sdltrs', including the hard disk driver. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 23 14:10:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:10:15 -0600 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <20120823164805.GB1866@zoho.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> <20120823164805.GB1866@zoho.com> Message-ID: In article <20120823164805.GB1866 at zoho.com>, microcode at zoho.com writes: > Ill-formatted, true. Generic, well, I don't think he is a native English > speaker and that makes it a lot harder. By generic, I mean that it didn't address me and my interests as an individual, it was a form letter. English aside, had the person taken the time to comment about my cctalk-related interests before asking for a job, I would have spent more time reading it. This is basic job-seeking advice. When you "cold call" someone asking for a job, sending a form letter doesn't indear you to the recipient. If you take the time (and since you're unemployed, you should have plenty of it) to customize the cover letter to the recipient, they pay attention. If it's a company and you show in your cover letter that you've researched the company's products and are telling them specifically why you could help them out with their existing product line and potential future products, that gets their attention. If it's an individual like me and you show in your email that you've been paying attention to the kinds of things I say on the mailing list (or you bothered to do some googling to see what kinds of things I say on the mailing list) and that you have skills that I would recognize, then I'm paying attention. When it's a form letter, I stop reading. > How's your Ukranian? Non-existent. However, if the situation were reversed and the Ukraine was booming and I needed a job, you can be damned sure I'd customize the cover letter and have someone who *did* have good Ukrainian review my letter before I sent it to make sure I didn't have any typos or grammatical mistakes. But you miss my point about "generic", I am not nitpicking his spelling or grammar, which seemed fine, but it would be another point working against him if the email contained spelling or grammar errors. > > I happen to work at a company that is aggressively hiring, but not for > > people in the Ukraine. (Seriously? You're emailing me from the other > > side of the globe asking for work?) > > Why not? It's a global market. Because we don't have an office in the Ukraine. If you want to be a telecommuting long-distance team member, you better stand out and show why a company is going to take a gamble on you. Sending a poorly formatted form letter is not the way to make that stand out impression. Modern technology work is a team effort. Being part of a team means being available at the same working hours as the rest of the team, which isn't feasible when you're on the other side of the globe. If all you wanted was a lone individual coder position, then you don't need to send a personal plea to my inbox, all you need to do is to start subscribing to the websites devoted to connecting such contractor types with available work. My remarks have got nothing to do with Ukraine, but with it's time zone distance from where the work is and the fact that most work is team based, not lone individual based. If the request came from Argentina or someplace in South America, that would at least address the time-zone difference, but there's also something to be said for being in the same physical office. It's not like this is someone I've worked with (or hell even had a *conversation* with) before and I can vouch for them. This is basically a complete stranger approaching me and asking me for a job. They want *me* to do them a favor. They could be the best worker ever, or they could be a complete scumbag liar child molester. I have no way of knowing the truth of the matter. > I think it would be a good idea if people are working for companies that are > hiring to at least mention on the list what they are looking for. I'm on this list for my own personal reasons, it doesn't have anything to do with my employer. (You'll notice that in my signature, personal web site, museum web site, manx, terminals wiki, etc., nowhere do I mention my employer. Since joining this list in 2005-ish, I've switched employers 3 times. I don't think I've never mentioned any of my employers by name in my conversations here, but you might be able to turn up the odd message or two where I do.) Given where I live (Salt Lake City) and so far having found like... uh... 2 people on this mailing list who are even in the same state, I don't go pimping job opportunities here. Like it or not, most work is still accelerated by being physically in the same room. If you're distant, you need even *better* communication and interpersonal skills than the average person, never mind the average engineer, to make up the difference. I've made a number of personal friends from this mailing list over the years; if one of them asked me about job opportunities in private email, my response would be much different than ignoring the email from this guy in the Ukraine I've never heard of before. Even there, I've given plenty of practical job-seeking advice in the two messages I've posted this thread. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 14:23:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50360135.31784.55D832@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com>, <50356A1E.30928.32E6D1A@cclist.sydex.com>, <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <50360135.31784.55D832@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120823122013.L91671@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Going to a different file system was about the smartest thing that > (SCP/Microsoft) ever did. The rest of the MS-DOS and CP/M API is > pretty weak, but that filesystem made a huge difference. People may > gripe about Microsoft "stealing" from DRI, but if I were in the > driver's seat at IBM, there would be no questions as to which system > was superior. And what is CP/M or MS-DOS but a file management > facility? I don't feel that MS-DOS 1.0 had any significant advantage[s] over CP/M 2.x When MS-DOS 2.0 came out, with sub-directories and paths, THAT made a significant difference. But those changes could have been done to CP/M with comparable effort to what making those changes had been with MS-DOS. Therefore, I thibnk that we are back to, "WOULD DRI have made the needed changes?", and the culture clash. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From george at rachors.com Thu Aug 23 14:28:50 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:28:50 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> <20120823152039.GA1866@zoho.com> Message-ID: That would be really cool! George Rachor george at rachors.com On Aug 23, 2012, at 10:30 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, George Rachor wrote: > >> I built one of Vince's replica one's (Apple 1 equivalent) at Kansasfest last month. I have my eye on this Altair Replica. >> > It looks like he may get all the Imsai assets from Todd F. and start building new machines. That would just kick ass. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Aug 23 14:31:40 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:31:40 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823100412.H85589@shell.lmi.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <20120823100412.H85589@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5036851C.1000208@verizon.net> On 08/23/2012 01:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: >> At least out here on the west coast you would be lucky to get $40 for >> Kaypro. There really isn't much love for the all in one cp/m boxes in >> general. They never really made any emotional connection with people. >> All work no play. The Kaypro were about the least interesting of the lot >> too. > The Kaypro case looked too "homemade" for some people. > The Osborne changed THAT. > > Why didn't the Otrona catch on? > Charlie Chaplin [clone] carrying a table with computer down stairs wasn't > enough? > Osborne was first, smaller and had a 5" screen. Kaypro was later, had better screen, keyboard, more IO, and generally better. I'd agree the Darth Vader lunch box look as less than kool but it was durable. Allison From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Aug 23 14:44:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <50367697.4010206@neurotica.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> <50367697.4010206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201208231944.PAA07490@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I agree. It's on-topic (as far as I am concerned) to ask about jobs >> working with classic computers. Agreed. But if that's what he wanted to do, I think he should have mailed the list. If he had, I'd've had no problem with it. I didn't get a copy, so I can't check directly, but my impression from the quotes and discussion is that he scraped the subscriber list, or recent posters' addresses, or some such, and spammed them. (And yes, I consider it spam: unsolicited, check; bulk, check; email, check. That I didn't get a copy means nothing; from what I can tell from the discussion I have seen, it appears to have been sent through Google, so I would have no identifiable traces even if he did (try to) send to me too.) > Seconded. This guy is one of us. If you cannot help or are not > interested, just hit delete and be done with it. Being one of us does not, in my opinion, excuse spamming. Indeed, I'm having trouble thinking of anything that does. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Aug 23 14:45:47 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:45:47 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50367231.8020909@brouhaha.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <503659E2.10604@verizon.net> <50367231.8020909@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5036886B.6010706@verizon.net> On 08/23/2012 02:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Allison wrote: >> and the 4/84 has Advent turborom, handyman rom, >> 1mb ramdisk, and the Advent personality board. All that in the 4/84 >> makes >> it the most useful of the group and the fastest. > > What dp the Advent turborom, handyman rom, and Advent personality > board do? > Advent Turborom, was an improved BOOT/bios with extensions for more and different drives. The advent personality board was an option that allowed the Tubrorom code to handle different drives than stock Kaypro had and allowed for up to 4. Standard drives were 2x 5.25" two side 40track and held about 360KB. Mine has 80 track 2side (fd55gfr) 5.25" for about 780K per drive. I went further to have one stock drive, and one fd55GFR plus added a 3.5" 80track (same interface as 5,25" 80track) one on the panel and one internal (default boot drive and utilities). By doing that It allowed me more general mass storage something very handy when using CP/M with lots of tools. That gave me 3x 780K +360K plus the 1MB ramdisk made the system very handy and useful. (using the ram disk for complies or assembles was way faster than floppy). Handyman was a calc, calender, mini editor, and a card file database that could be brought up at any time even during a CP/M utility or ap like multiplan or other editor. People liked the Keypro as it was CP/M giving access to a huge pool of free and inexpensive software and tools plus it was easily added onto. Add on items included hard disks, and other very desirable system hardware. Allison. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 15:00:11 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > >>>> The only issue I have with the Model 4 (I've got one as well) is the lack >>>> of { and } keys. Makes it damn difficult to write C code. :) (but that >>>> just makes Turbo Pascal 3 even more attractive!) >>> >>> Not a problem - CTRL-< and CTRL-> give you the curly braces. >> >> I didn't know that - thanks for the tip! > > That's specifically for Montezuma Micro CP/M for the Model 4. Other key > combinations will give you: > I don't recall what version of CP/M I've got for it - I'd have to unbag the system and check... > I wrote much of the Micro Magic BBS on that Model 4. :-) > Which version, the Citadel or UNIX? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 23 15:13:01 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? There was the P112, which I distributed until I ran out. If I can get together a couple thousand dollars, I can kickstart a new run of them. See http://661.org/p112/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 15:16:24 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:16:24 +0000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II Message-ID: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> To answer your question regarding an original altair price, an 8800 generally sells around $1800 to $3000 depending on what's included and if its shown to work. Quite expensive. I've heard Grant Stockly (hope I'm not missing an 'e' there) is also going to resume his Altair replicas. They're beautiful systems and exact clones but with that level of work it also demands a higher price tag. I think they were running around 1200? So vince's microaltair was a nice clone and smaller on purpose but also a more affordable price. I'm not sure if cpm was available for the apple 1 but thatd be another cheaper option is a replica-1 running cpm. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 15:17:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:17:23 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com>, <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <50362D63.12481.641E5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2012 at 13:32, Michael Kerpan wrote: > The non-standard connectors are a bit of a problem, however, the > expansion interfaces do appear to have been available (at least for > those willing to import from the UK and Europe) I did find that tinkering with a byte in the boot sector of the 40- track floppy Joyce, I could get it to boot and recognize a 720K 3.5" drive as such. One interesting thing is that the Joyce has *no* native text mode. Until you boot a system that can generate characters, there is no text display. Some of the Japanese Z80 boxes boasted dual CPUs and 640x400 16-color displays. It's a shame that more hasn't been written on them. Or for that matter, the 6809-based Japanese PCs. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 15:20:58 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50367CCA.1010703@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <50367CCA.1010703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/23/2012 09:47 AM, geneb wrote: >>> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact >>> (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and >>> serviced them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them now. >> >> I've got a pair of 1200 baud internal Hayes compatible smartmodems you >> might be interested in. > > Sure! > Email me with your address and I'll ship one off to you. The modem board itself is attached to the bottom of the main logic board via double-sided foam tape. The modem connects to the Kaypro via a ribbon cable and a tiny daughterboard that plugs into the sockets used for the 1488/1489 line drivers on the main logic board. The removed line drivers then plug into the top of the daughterboard. It lets you use the serial port in kind of a pass-through fashion I think. The only thing I found on the net about them was an old Infoworld review - they sold for an absolutely ungodly amount. >> I'd love to find one of those add-on boards that would allow IDE or CF >> to be used - the HD in my 10 isn't going to last forever. :( > > GIDE works in the Kaypros I think. > Is anyone selling them? > The drive in my '10 died about two years ago. :-( I have another one, > I just have to get around to installing it, and figure out if I want to > change out the ROM in the process. Is there one that I can get an image > for that you would recommend for the '10? > I like the KayPLUS ROM. It seems to add a number of nice features to the system. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 23 15:23:13 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 16:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> I wrote much of the Micro Magic BBS on that Model 4. :-) >> > Which version, the Citadel or UNIX? Xenix, to be specific. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 23 15:28:39 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Why not just, well you know, have a Kaypro? >> >> (what a concept!) >> > I've got two! (a 4-84 and a 10). Head over to > http://www.microcodeconsulting.com/z80/kayplus.htm and make yourself a > KayPLUS ROM. It makes for a very nice, inexpensive update. This KayPLUS doesn't appear to work for the Kaypro II (the first one). Am I wrong? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 15:48:07 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > >> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? > > There was the P112, which I distributed until I ran out. If I can get > together a couple thousand dollars, I can kickstart a new run of them. See > http://661.org/p112/ What about an actual Kickstarter project for a run of them? A $2000 goal isn't much and would attract attention via Hackaday and some other sites I think. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 15:49:32 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > I'm not sure if cpm was available for the apple 1 but thatd be another > cheaper option is a replica-1 running cpm. I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Aug 23 15:51:26 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:51:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <1345755086.51682.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> >I happen to work at a company that is aggressively hiring, but not for >people in the Ukraine.? (Seriously?? You're emailing me from the other >side of the globe asking for work?) I'm a bit surprised to read that... I thought we're in 2012... In the company I work for, people from the entire globe who attend for an open position are invited to do so and if they are well qualified, the flight for a personal interview (after having succeded the phone interview) is sometimes paid by the company. Nowadays, it's not unusual anymore that people are willing to move to the other side of the globe for a job if it's what they want or need. Greetings, Pierre From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 16:00:43 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:00:43 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 13:56, Tothwolf wrote: > > Occasional requests sent to the list are one thing. Harvesting email > addresses to spam with an off-list message is another. Doing the later gets > around such things as email list management filters and means that for > people like me, we got his message directly in our catch-all inbox vs a > predefined mbox for email list traffic. Yes, I know. I got the same thing. I daresay everyone did. And? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 16:11:54 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >>> I wrote much of the Micro Magic BBS on that Model 4. :-) >>> >> Which version, the Citadel or UNIX? > > Xenix, to be specific. :-) :P g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 23 16:13:31 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035A5E7.2080907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> Why not just, well you know, have a Kaypro? >>> >>> (what a concept!) >>> >> I've got two! (a 4-84 and a 10). Head over to >> http://www.microcodeconsulting.com/z80/kayplus.htm and make yourself a >> KayPLUS ROM. It makes for a very nice, inexpensive update. > > This KayPLUS doesn't appear to work for the Kaypro II (the first one). Am I > wrong? I honestly don't know - you might want to email the author and find out. I can't imagine there would be a huge stumbling block to making it work if it didn't already. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Aug 23 16:16:24 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:16:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Kaypro II Message-ID: <1167270653.799234.1345756584397.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 20 >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:31:40 -0400 >From: Allison < ajp166 at verizon.net > > > >On 08/23/2012 01:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Why didn't the Otrona catch on? >> Charlie Chaplin [clone] carrying a table with computer down stairs wasn't >> enough? >> >Osborne was first, smaller and had a 5" screen. > >Kaypro was later, had better screen, keyboard, more IO, and generally >better. >I'd agree the Darth Vader lunch box look as less than kool but it was >durable. > >Allison Regarding why the Otrona did not catch on (other than in some circles, such as the JPL): 1. Price. Much more expensive than either the Osborne or Kaypro. I think I paid over $3500 for my 8:16, with a substantial educational discount. 2. Screen size: 5". 3. Late arrival. The O1 and Kaypro were already established. I saw my first Otrona at a Chicago FOG meeting. I heard the Osborne described as a Buick, the Kaypro as a Chevrolet and the Otrona as a BMW. BTW, I still have my 8:16, which I had aftermarket upgraded to 512KB RAM . Bob From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 16:26:09 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:26:09 -0700 Subject: 1962 Navy Film on Digital Computers Message-ID: <50369FF1.3000609@gmail.com> Kinda neat old film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDQROzrFD1o From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 23 16:28:28 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035F5B5.14724.28ED0D@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 23, 12 09:19:49 am" Message-ID: <201208232128.q7NLSSSd14483664@floodgap.com> > We make it a point to go over the cable bridge between Pasco and > Kennewick--it was designed by a good friend of mine who still calls > it "his bridge". Is that WA 397? It's a beautiful bridge, if I know the one you refer to (opposite the Blue Bridge). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Man fears Time, yet Time fears the Pyramids. -- Arab proverb --------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 16:07:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:07:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823144322.GG16844@zoho.com> from "microcode@zoho.com" at Aug 23, 12 02:43:22 pm Message-ID: > > The only issue I have with the Model 4 (I've got one as well) is the > > lack of { and } keys. Makes it damn difficult to write C code. :) > > Sounds like a feature! Not under CP/M, but have you ever tried writing C on a CoCo II? No {} leuys, no [] keys (AFAIK), upper case only display (lower case was displayed in inverse video) and 32*16 characters at that. I upgraded ot a CoCo 3 as soon as I could... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 16:11:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:11:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <15DA9CBF-0664-41B3-BBC2-10639A733014@verizon.net> from "Rich Cini" at Aug 23, 12 10:47:28 am Message-ID: > I personally like the kits because I like to build them, get them > working, and support other vintage computing hobbyists and their projects. I prefer kits for many reasons : They normally come with adequate documatation. I can assmeble them with 'proper' leadad solder, so connections stay good I will use quality paets where I can. Turned-pin DIL sockets, 105 degree capacitors, etc. Not the cheapest parts all the time I can make any modifiactions I need to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 15:53:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:53:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp 9000/300-320 68K, Questions In-Reply-To: <201208230715.DAA04572@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Aug 23, 12 03:15:32 am Message-ID: > I might be, too, once I have enough experience with it. If I can't > make a full desktop host speak HP-IB through glue logic (well, possibly > aside from timing constraint reasons), I'm not going to be able to make > a microcontroller do it. True. You could, of course, use one of the HPIB interface chisp, but most ahve been discontinued. They are still easy to find, but I wouldn't want to design a device round them. >From what I remember, there is only one timing-tricial bit of the HPIB interfce. I think it's sasserting the approprate data lien on a parallel poll -- there is no hanschake ivolved, so the device has to repsod quickly enougjh. Everything else is a fully interlocked handshake. A microcontrolelr _should_ be able ot keep up wit hthe timing requirements, even for parallel poll, but 'should' is a prime source of hard-to-find headaches :-). If I was doing it, I'd add the minimal external logic and do it in hardware... > > > I half-thought about using an R-pi. Banging the HPIB handshake on the > > pins of htat user port connecotr (with buffres added, of course). > > the R-pi has just about everything else you need, includign a USB > > host interface. > > A USB host interface is only marginally more useful to me than it is to > you. Serial line or Ethernet - preferbaly serial line *and* Ethernet - No, I didn;t mean using a USB interfce to communicate with some other host computer. I meant that the R-pi can be a USB host, and thus you can conenct USB storage drevices, like memory sticks, to it. My idea for this devie is a ttoally stand-alone thing that connects to the HPIB. It takes some kind of standard flash memroy to simulate the disk storage (USB sticks, SD cards, whatever). Thrre si some way of selecting a particular disk image on said flash memroy (keypad/LCB, RS232 port to a terminal, etc). It doens't need a PC to run. > is what I'd want. And I wouldn't spend money on a pi in any case, not > when I've got plenty of perfectly good hardware lying around. The problem for me is that HP machines re not always small, so there's not enough room to put the one I am working on _and a PC setup_ on my bench at the same time. Hence my idea for a small stand-alone thing. It shouldn't; be hard to do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 16:17:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:17:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 23, 12 09:25:29 am Message-ID: [Amstrad PCW] > Mine has 512K of memory installed. The downside is the utter lack of > a standard peripheral interface (e.g. Centronics parallel or RS232) There was an Amstrad Centronics/RS232 interface for it, which plugged ont othe 50 pin bus conenctor. Fidning infromation on it is non-trivial, I assuem there was a servicv emanual for it, but I have never seen it. I do have oen somwwhere, and from what I recall it's all stnadard ICs inside (TTL and Z80 peripehral ICs, mostly). Next time I come across it and hard soem free time I might be convinced to trace out the schematic. > or a way to modify the boot code, which appears to be contained in > the ASIC printer interface. I thought the pritner controller was an 8041/8042 thingy. There's a PQFP SAIC that contaisn most of the video circuitry, etc, I think the boot 'ROM is hardwired logic in there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 16:25:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:25:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: from "Michael Kerpan" at Aug 23, 12 01:32:49 pm Message-ID: [Amstrad PCW interface] > The non-standard connectors are a bit of a problem, however, the > expansion interfaces do appear to have been available (at least for > those willing to import from the UK and Europe) It certianly existed, I have one soemwhere... I thought that the RS232 conenctor was a standard DB25. I think socket, and it mayw well be mis-wired as a DTE. But Amstrad were by no means the only company to get that wrong... The Centroics port is, IIRC, a 34 pin card edge. It's the came as the cnnector on the CPC machines, so the came cable works. So does a TRS-80 M1/3/4 peinter cable. So does crimping the connecotrs to a bit of ribbon cable. Of coruse I am not talking about the printer conenctor on the main PCW here. That is a set of signals to operate the motor and head drivers fo of the totally dumb printer that cmae with it. > In general, I'm a big fan of Amstrad hardware. The CPC home computer I hated the quality of constrcution, but loved the easy availabiliy of real service manuals (schematics) and spare parts. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 16:02:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:02:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: from "Mike Loewen" at Aug 23, 12 07:45:20 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. > > > > I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It > > may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. > > While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M system. I think the idea of 'best CP/M system' is meaningless. 'Best' for what? I must admit I was never a fan of CP/M. I liked (and still kike) the TRS-80 Model 4), but I run LS-DOS on it. Very rarely to I boot CP/M. SO i guess I like that machine because I don't ahve to run CP/M on it. My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QC10. Interesting hardware at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, etc. Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein? It runs soemthing called XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same). For plain 'odd' the HP120 / HP125 come high up the list (those machines have very simialr hardwre, just physically built differently). A paiur of Z80s, one running CP/M, the other acting as a text termninal, communicting via a parallel interface. And it uses those HP HPIB drive untis. For versatility, I guess an S100 machine is desirable. Not that I was ever really into that bus. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 23 16:30:03 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: from geneb at "Aug 23, 12 01:49:32 pm" Message-ID: <201208232130.q7NLU3b69764874@floodgap.com> > > I'm not sure if cpm was available for the apple 1 but thatd be another > > cheaper option is a replica-1 running cpm. > > I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, > you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. I doubt it personally. All the CP/Ms that "ran" on 6502-based systems required some sort of Z80 expansion (C64, Apple II, and "sort of" the C128). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: The Never-Ending E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 16:33:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm not sure if cpm was available for the apple 1 but thatd be another > > cheaper option is a replica-1 running cpm. On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: > I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, > you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. Not CP/M-6502. (although there was a CP/M-68K) Instead, the "Microsoft Z80 SoftCard". A Z80 co-processor card, WITH CP/M included for the Apple ][. Sorry, not the Apple 1. It was extremely popular. At one point, APPLE declared that 25% of Apple][ owners had one! (And THAT was before the generic clones of it became available) It is rumored that one of the people on IBM's entry-systems project group had one, and that THAT was why they originally thought that Microsoft was the source wherein to get CP/M! Microsoft sent them to DRI. The culture clash at 801 Lighthouse Ave, Pacific Grove sent IBM back to Microsoft. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 16:57:52 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 17:57:52 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035B52E.1070801@gmail.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <5035B52E.1070801@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:44 AM, mc68010 wrote: > I personally hate them. Seriously. It's just my personal opinion of course. > They are just like 99% of the rest of the cp/m boxes but, I dislike pretty > much everything about their design. I always felt like it was designed in > East Germany. I used them back in the day (c. 1985) at a couple of places. I never thought much about the design one way or the other except that I thought the screen was smaller than I would have liked (I was used to 12" or so CRTs, from VT100s and various 8-bit micros). The portability was nice, but I would have been just as happy with a "desktop" CP/M machine. While I have a Kaypro II and did enjoy borrowing one to take to VCFe to run old Infocom games on, it was never my preferred personal platform. Someone here asked why there's not much nostalgia for these sorts of systems, and in my own case, I'd have to say it has to do with my age and what machines I encountered and when (baby duck syndrome). When CP/M was a big deal in hobby computing, I was a kid and couldn't afford all the expensive hardware it took to run it (8" drives, in large part). My family only knew a few of people who owned a computer in the mid-1970s (as a hobby or for a small business). I think one family friend had a Northstar Horizon but that was for business so kids were not allowed to play on it (I don't think he had anything except business apps anyway). One friend had a Challenger III and that _was_ fun to play on, but it was no Northstar (or Kaypro). One or two owned TRS-80s once those came out, but only the lesser models, no floppy drives. On a wider scale, there were two user groups that met in Columbus in the late-1970s that I was aware of - one met downtown and was full of owners of CP/M machines, but that group was full of, to me at that age, grouchy old men who had no time for an inquisitive pre-teen; the other group met in the suburbs (i.e., harder to get to for a city kid), but was specifically a Commodore PET group. That group was welcoming to all ages, and since I was already learning on a 4K PET at the public library, it cemented my direction. My family couldn't afford a $2K+ rig, but we did eventually (2-3 years later) bought a $1K 32K PET with tape drive. So for me, CP/M was out of reach when it was at its most popular, so I never developed much affinity for it. I don't dislike it (beyond some minor quibbles), but neither was I involved with it to the point of developing any nostalgia. I knew it existed but didn't really get my hands on it until about 1985 when it was well into its decline into obscurity propelled by the massive rise of MS-DOS (which I do dislike for specific technical reasons as well as the "well everyone uses it so it must be the best" mentality that came with the monopoly). So in recent years, I've dabbled with CP/M, I own 2-3 machines that run it, but I've honestly spent more time running the Altair emulator with Simh than any real hardware in the past 20 years. One thing that I have been enjoying lately is re-reading pre-1982 Byte magazines which were chock full of Z-80 and CP/M articles and ads and, with 30 years of learning to help, finally grokking what I once read as a kid. I definitely remember reading each one but I simply lacked enough background to understand what I read (and since I didn't hang around with the CP/M crowd, I didn't know anyone who could interpret it for me). -ethan From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Aug 23 17:02:43 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 23:02:43 +0100 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5036A883.2030403@mac.com> On 23/08/2012 15:54, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Personally, I'm partial to the Amstrad PCW line.While it was marketed > as a dedicated word processor in much of the world, it had gobs of RAM > (at least 256KB), high-resolution monochrome graphics (720x256) and > shipped with a very nice CP/M Plus implementation which included a > better-than-average BASIC as well as DRI LOGO and the GSX graphics > libraries. The non-standard 3 inch floppies are a bit of a drag, but > it was fairly easy to add 3.5 inch drives and even hard drives were > available. > > Mike I still have four new, old stock Amstrad PcW9512+ in storage, still in boxes if anyone in the UK really needs one. 3.5 inch 720 K floppy as standard with this model!! Roger From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 17:15:18 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 23:15:18 +0100 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 15:54, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Personally, I'm partial to the Amstrad PCW line.While it was marketed > as a dedicated word processor in much of the world, it had gobs of RAM > (at least 256KB), high-resolution monochrome graphics (720x256) and > shipped with a very nice CP/M Plus implementation which included a > better-than-average BASIC as well as DRI LOGO and the GSX graphics > libraries. The non-standard 3 inch floppies are a bit of a drag, but > it was fairly easy to add 3.5 inch drives and even hard drives were > available. I was going to say pretty much that! I guess there's little awareness because [a] they're not American and weren't big in America, [b] they were a very late-period CP/M machine and thus not very "classic" and [c] Amstrad are perceived as cheap & plasticky. The "Joyce" was a lovely machine, I thought. I got a PCW9512 as my 21st birthday present in 1988. It was fast for a Z80, had a whacking great 90*32 screen (IIRC), 720K drives and a parallel port. Decent keyboard, too. And of course a nice big RAMdisk as drive M:, so a single-floppy machine was entirely usable - I set up boot scripts to copy all the nonresident CP/M commands to M and set whatever the CP/M equivalent of a search path was. You could fit half a floppy's worth in there, so only needing a data disk in the drive. 720*256 graphics (again, IIRC), with a bright attribute, too, I think. I had /very/ slow Mandelbrot sets rendering on it. More or less a CP/M box with a Hercules Graphics Card. :?) It had CP/M+ but no RTC, so timestamps didn't work unless you entered the time manually at boot-up. I was very kindly given a mint, BNIB-in-box PCW9512+ by listmember Roger Pugh a couple of years ago. The little -known 9512+ replaces the 3" floppies with a more standard 3?", which is handy. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 17:16:59 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 23:16:59 +0100 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 17:25, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Aug 2012 at 10:54, Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> Personally, I'm partial to the Amstrad PCW line.While it was marketed >> as a dedicated word processor in much of the world, it had gobs of RAM >> (at least 256KB), high-resolution monochrome graphics (720x256) and >> shipped with a very nice CP/M Plus implementation which included a >> better-than-average BASIC as well as DRI LOGO and the GSX graphics >> libraries. The non-standard 3 inch floppies are a bit of a drag, but >> it was fairly easy to add 3.5 inch drives and even hard drives were >> available. > > Yup, got a "Joyce" here (120V US version, probably sold by Sears). > The 3" drive has been replaced with a 3.5" one (there's a gotcha with > the power cable--same connector as a 3.5" but the +5 and +12 are > interchanged. The Joyce does require a "ready" signal, so you need > to either use a drive that provides one or tie it active). > > Mine has 512K of memory installed. The downside is the utter lack of > a standard peripheral interface (e.g. Centronics parallel or RS232) > or a way to modify the boot code, which appears to be contained in > the ASIC printer interface. True about the boot code, but the 9512 has a parallel port as well as its expansion bus connector. I've got a serial port cartridge for mine, which I planned to hook up to my VAXstation as a terminal - only the eBayer who sold me the VAXstation kept not only the disk, but also the cradle and cable, replacing which will cost me 30-40? the cost of the VAX. :?( There was a hard disk for them, too, but I've never found one... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 17:28:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:28:53 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208232128.q7NLSSSd14483664@floodgap.com> References: <5035F5B5.14724.28ED0D@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Aug 23, 12 09:19:49 am", <201208232128.q7NLSSSd14483664@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50364C35.12619.64662@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2012 at 14:28, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > We make it a point to go over the cable bridge between Pasco and > > Kennewick--it was designed by a good friend of mine who still calls > > it "his bridge". > > Is that WA 397? It's a beautiful bridge, if I know the one you refer > to (opposite the Blue Bridge). Yup, that's the one--I was surprise to find an article on WikiP simply calling it the "Cable Bridge": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_bridge The Eastern Washington setting really works also. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 17:53:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120823155057.H93055@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QC10. Interesting hardware > at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, etc. Is that like the QX-10? In which case, how do you like Valdocs? Or the Epson Geneve PX-8! A dozen of them will fit in a Kaypro case. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 23 17:59:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:59:32 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5036B5D4.9040806@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2012 05:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I'm not sure if cpm was available for the apple 1 but thatd be another >>> cheaper option is a replica-1 running cpm. > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >> I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, >> you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. > > Not CP/M-6502. (although there was a CP/M-68K) Still is, in fact! I've got it for my Sage II. > Instead, the "Microsoft Z80 SoftCard". > A Z80 co-processor card, WITH CP/M included for the Apple ][. I have a similar card for my HP-87 (no joke), but sadly I have no floppy drives for that system. There was a really nice one for ISA-bus PCs in the 8088 era. I had one, it was great. I'd love to get one again but they're pretty thin on the ground. I don't recall offhand what it was called, but it was blue. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 18:27:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 16:27:20 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 23, 12 09:25:29 am, Message-ID: <503659E8.7913.3BCA46@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2012 at 22:17, Tony Duell wrote: > There was an Amstrad Centronics/RS232 interface for it, which plugged > ont othe 50 pin bus conenctor. Fidning infromation on it is > non-trivial, I assuem there was a servicv emanual for it, but I have > never seen it. I do have oen somwwhere, and from what I recall it's > all stnadard ICs inside (TTL and Z80 peripehral ICs, mostly). Next > time I come across it and hard soem free time I might be convinced to > trace out the schematic. Pretty much unknown on this side of the pond. > I thought the pritner controller was an 8041/8042 thingy. There's a > PQFP SAIC that contaisn most of the video circuitry, etc, I think the > boot 'ROM is hardwired logic in there. Somewhere I have a very blurry Schneider schematic (gives me a headache to read it, but it's better than nothing). That sinking feeling of not finding a PROM or ROM anywhere on the PCB really bothered me. The power supply is barely adequate for the system. Rather than a simple overcurrent protector, the thing uses a bunch of those TO92- cased fuse-ish things. Those also are very uncommon over here. I wonder how many PCWs were trashed because of one going and the repair shop not having a clue. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 23 18:29:23 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:29:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 23 August 2012 13:56, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Occasional requests sent to the list are one thing. Harvesting email >> addresses to spam with an off-list message is another. Doing the later gets >> around such things as email list management filters and means that for >> people like me, we got his message directly in our catch-all inbox vs a >> predefined mbox for email list traffic. > > Yes, I know. I got the same thing. I daresay everyone did. > > And? And? I don't know about half the people on this list, but I could use more work myself. If he is in really bad shape then he should have sent a short message to the list, but don't harvest email addresses and send out individual emails to a whole bunch of random people. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 23 18:33:59 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 17:33:59 -0600 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <1345755086.51682.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> <1345755086.51682.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1345755086.51682.YahooMailNeo at web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>, P Gebhardt writes: > > >I happen to work at a company that is aggressively hiring, but not for > >people in the Ukraine.? (Seriously?? You're emailing me from the other > >side of the globe asking for work?) > > I'm a bit surprised to read that... I thought we're in 2012... Yeah, so? I'm not saying people from the Ukraine can't apply for a position at my employer, but hiring someone that isn't a US citizen and lives in a foreign country (i.e. is not currently residing in the US) makes things much more complicated. By law, a company is required to show *why* they must go outside the country in order to fill the position instead of filling the position with a US citizen. After that, a work visa has to be obtained and the employee has to be relocated to the US, which the employee usually expects the company to pay for -or- the company has to establish secure remote infrastructure for the employee to be able to work. Extending secure network services to the Ukraine may be non-trivial (I'm not in IT, so I have no idea what it would take for our company). I'm not an expert in international corporate law, but taking on the first employee in a new national political jurisdication probably involves some initial expense. If all you want to do is hire a fly-by-night contractor, then yeah, you can pretty much "spend and pray" any way you like with minimal regulatory hurdles. But where I work, we hire people for the long-term and don't do short-term contracts. > Nowadays, it's not unusual anymore that people are willing to move to the > other > side of the globe for a job if it's what they want or need. You make it sound as if all that's involved is a plane flight and shipping your personal belongings. It's not anywhere nearly as simplistic as that, and hasn't been that way for a long, long time. When I got out of college in 1986, I worked 5 months in France. I had to go through a huge amount of bullshit just to do that short-term work as an employee. I can't even begin to imagine how much bullshit you have to go through now. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 23 18:41:30 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:41:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I'm not sure if cpm was available for the apple 1 but thatd be another >>> cheaper option is a replica-1 running cpm. > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, geneb wrote: >> I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, >> you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. > > Not CP/M-6502. (although there was a CP/M-68K) > > Instead, the "Microsoft Z80 SoftCard". > A Z80 co-processor card, WITH CP/M included for the Apple ][. > Sorry, not the Apple 1. > > It was extremely popular. At one point, APPLE declared that 25% of > Apple][ owners had one! (And THAT was before the generic clones of it > became available) I have one of these boards, new in box actually. Unfortunately, the university "surplus" dolt destroyed the new/unused software disks which originally came with it before it went for auction. "But we always destroy software..." Dumbass. Does anyone have disk images of the original disks which were included with these boards? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 23 19:07:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 17:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036B5D4.9040806@neurotica.com> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> <5036B5D4.9040806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120823170615.U93055@shell.lmi.net> > > A Z80 co-processor card, WITH CP/M included for the Apple ][. On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > There was a really nice one for ISA-bus PCs in the 8088 era. I had > one, it was great. I'd love to get one again but they're pretty thin on > the ground. I don't recall offhand what it was called, but it was blue. Blue Thunder? Blue Lightning? Z80MU? There were a lot of them! From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 19:14:17 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 01:14:17 +0100 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503659E8.7913.3BCA46@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com> <503659E8.7913.3BCA46@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 24 August 2012 00:27, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Somewhere I have a very blurry Schneider schematic (gives me a > headache to read it, but it's better than nothing). That sinking > feeling of not finding a PROM or ROM anywhere on the PCB really > bothered me. You're right, it is ROMless - q.v.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_PCW#Technical_design But why is this a problem? It can boot LocoScript, CP/M, SymbOS ( http://www.symbos.de/ ) and I have a feeling that there is/was a Contiki port for it as well ( http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Contiki ). There's quite a variety of OSs. What would you want to change the ROM for? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 19:16:00 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 01:16:00 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On 24 August 2012 00:29, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> And? > > And? I don't know about half the people on this list, but I could use more > work myself. If he is in really bad shape then he should have sent a short > message to the list, but don't harvest email addresses and send out > individual emails to a whole bunch of random people. Sure, it was bad manners, poor netiquette, but it was an honest effort and a first-time thing. If he does it again, or tries to sell us anything, then problem, but TBH I think you're over-reacting a bit, that's all. Poor decision, yes, agreed, but no harm done to us. To his rep or standing, yes, maybe, but that is his problem, not ours. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 23 19:50:34 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:50:34 -0400 Subject: was: The best CP/M machine ever? Message-ID: <001d01cd8192$91de84a0$b59b8de0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Rich! Thanks! I really appreciate the support! Here is a little background information in case anyone was wondering about building your own home brew CP/M computer. At the N8VEM home brew computer project there are several boards to assemble your own home brew CP/M computer. The original is the SBC V2 which is a Z80 based Eurocard system. It can be stand alone or act as an ECB bus controller for IO expansion. Next is the Zeta which is an SBC without bus expansion but several built in peripherals such as a floppy drive controller, IDE, serial, RTC, etc. Finally there is the N8 which is a Z8S180 based all-in-one computer with complete IO suite (FDC, IDE, serial, parallel, video, audio, etc). It is a bit like the P112 with built in video, sound, and some other peripherals along with hobbyist friendly components. All of the N8VEM CP/M computers share a common ROM BIOS (RomWBW) or you can use your own or someone else's custom BIOS (MSX CBIOS). What is really neat is a sizable robust community has grown up around the N8VEM computers and builders are even making their own systems (like the Zeta) for the group. We don't always agree on things but manage to get along pretty well. There are many points of view and not everyone sees things the same way. That's OK -- its healthy. There is also a fairly complete suite (25+ types) of S-100 boards with backplanes, serial IO, drive controllers, video controllers, RAM boards, CPU boards, etc. Really too many to mention here. All the hardware and software design information is free (as in speech and beer) and publicly posted. There is a mailing list and wiki available for information and support if you want it. You are free to use what's there even if you never participate in the N8VEM home brew computer project. Several other projects have branched off N8VEM and are now making their own CP/M computers, S-100 boards, etc. http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com Most boards have parts lists in addition to full schematic and PCB layout. Complete KiCAD EDA files with custom libraries are included as well as full source code listings, tools, etc. I try to emphasize the use of free/open source tool sets so literally *anyone* can build their own systems including making their own home made PCBs. The PCBs are available through group buys which is a sort of informal process. I try to keep the cost as low as possible and it more or less works. Active community participation is encouraged and expected but not required since everyone is a *builder*. There are no bosses, management, users, stockholders, clients, or customers! So if you have the inclination or ever desired to build your own home brew computer this is your chance. It is pretty easy to do and a lot of fun! Please consider this your personal invitation to come to the N8VEM home brew computer project. You are all most certainly welcome! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, if you have questions feel free to contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Cini > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:19 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II > > Do you mean hobbyist or COTS? There are several hobby SBCs that can do it, > including the P112 and N8VEM. There are 68k and 8086 boards as well. > > > > Rich Cini > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:56 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > > > Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 23 20:07:47 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:07:47 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? David Griffith wrote: > > There was the P112, which I distributed until I ran out. If I can get > together a couple thousand dollars, I can kickstart a new run of them. > See http://661.org/p112/ > Maybe it would actually make a good Kickstarter project? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 23 20:10:51 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:10:51 -0700 Subject: CP/M for 6502 (was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II) In-Reply-To: References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5036D49B.3000006@brouhaha.com> geneb wrote: > I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, > you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. There certainly wasn't any "official" CP/M for the 6502. The closest thing I've ever seen was the ADIOS operating system for the Apple II, which was designed to be CP/M-like. It was developed by Soft Warehouse because they didn't consider Apple DOS to be a satisfactory operating system to host their muMath and muLisp products. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 23 20:13:45 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:13:45 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5036D549.8000603@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I prefer kits for many reasons : They normally come with adequate > documatation. You must be finding different kits than I see around here. Most of them I've seen in the last 15 years have a pre-programmed code-locked microcontroller with no source code, so all you can learn by building the kit is soldering skills. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 20:13:23 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:13:23 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5036D533.2020706@gmail.com> On 8/23/2012 6:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > microcode at zoho.com wrote: >> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? > > David Griffith wrote: >> >> There was the P112, which I distributed until I ran out. If I can >> get together a couple thousand dollars, I can kickstart a new run of >> them. See http://661.org/p112/ >> > > Maybe it would actually make a good Kickstarter project? > Are there any versions of cp/m for any of the Zilog Z8 evaluation boards like this http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ZiLOG/Z8F04A28100KITG/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduh8s%2fmA%252be6nuKamYhvQLdzZVsXSy1pbOZM%3d They sell for less than $50. Seems much easier than designing one off home made z80 boards. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 23 20:16:57 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > microcode at zoho.com wrote: >> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? > > David Griffith wrote: >> >> There was the P112, which I distributed until I ran out. If I can get >> together a couple thousand dollars, I can kickstart a new run of them. See >> http://661.org/p112/ > > Maybe it would actually make a good Kickstarter project? I've thought off and on about doing that. Maybe I should sit down this weekend and redo the numbers and give it a shot. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thu Aug 23 20:27:21 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:27:21 -0400 Subject: CP/M for 6502 (was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II) In-Reply-To: <5036D49B.3000006@brouhaha.com> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5036D49B.3000006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000601cd8197$9c603d10$d520b730$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:11 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: CP/M for 6502 (was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: > Kaypro II) > > geneb wrote: > > I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, > > you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. > > There certainly wasn't any "official" CP/M for the 6502. The closest thing I've > ever seen was the ADIOS operating system for the Apple II, which was > designed to be CP/M-like. It was developed by Soft Warehouse because > they didn't consider Apple DOS to be a satisfactory operating system to host > their muMath and muLisp products. Hi! There is a CP/M compatible operating system for 6502. It is called DOS/65 and was written by Rich Leary. He is also the original designer of the S-100 6502 CPU board http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/file/38322540/DOS-65%20IEEE%20Standard%20696% 20Guide.pdf http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%206502%20 CPU%20board%20V1 DOS/65 is pretty amazing considering it is the closest thing to a CP/M port for 6502. It runs on the S-100 6502 CPU board and also the 6x0x host processor. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Aug 23 20:28:22 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:28:22 +1000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <691BCBE8-24D3-4717-A96A-EBD08497653A@mactec.com.au> On 24/08/2012, at 9:41 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >> Instead, the "Microsoft Z80 SoftCard". >> A Z80 co-processor card, WITH CP/M included for the Apple ][. >> Sorry, not the Apple 1. >> >> It was extremely popular. At one point, APPLE declared that 25% of >> Apple][ owners had one! (And THAT was before the generic clones of it >> became available) > > I have one of these boards, new in box actually. Unfortunately, the university "surplus" dolt destroyed the new/unused software disks which originally came with it before it went for auction. "But we always destroy software..." Dumbass. > > Does anyone have disk images of the original disks which were included with these boards? You can find them at http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/ From db at db.net Thu Aug 23 20:32:13 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:32:13 -0500 Subject: CP/M for 6502 (was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II) In-Reply-To: <5036D49B.3000006@brouhaha.com> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5036D49B.3000006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120824013213.GA62560@night.db.net> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 06:10:51PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > geneb wrote: > >I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, > >you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. > > There certainly wasn't any "official" CP/M for the 6502. The closest > thing I've ever seen was the ADIOS operating system for the Apple II, > which was designed to be CP/M-like. It was developed by Soft Warehouse > because they didn't consider Apple DOS to be a satisfactory operating > system to host their muMath and muLisp products. > I wrote a disk DOS for the 6502 a long time ago. It looked more like RT-11 though with PIP. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 23 20:49:07 2012 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:49:07 -0500 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036D533.2020706@gmail.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> <5036D533.2020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5036DD93.1030808@ubanproductions.com> On 8/23/12 8:13 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/23/2012 6:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> microcode at zoho.com wrote: >>> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? >> >> David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> There was the P112, which I distributed until I ran out. If I can get together a couple thousand >>> dollars, I can kickstart a new run of them. See http://661.org/p112/ >>> >> >> Maybe it would actually make a good Kickstarter project? >> > > Are there any versions of cp/m for any of the Zilog Z8 evaluation boards like this > http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ZiLOG/Z8F04A28100KITG/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduh8s%2fmA%252be6nuKamYhvQLdzZVsXSy1pbOZM%3d > > > They sell for less than $50. Seems much easier than designing one off home made z80 boards. > > I'm picturing a USB driver for CP/M - GACK! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 23 21:00:26 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 19:00:26 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036D533.2020706@gmail.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> <5036D533.2020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5036E03A.4000300@brouhaha.com> On 08/23/2012 06:13 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Are there any versions of cp/m for any of the Zilog Z8 evaluation boards The Z8 is essentially completely unlike the Z80 or 8080. It's not even close to being able to run CP/M. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 21:09:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 19:09:16 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <5035F709.19864.2E1E75@cclist.sydex.com>, <503659E8.7913.3BCA46@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <50367FDC.9549.D00A2D@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 1:14, Liam Proven wrote: > But why is this a problem? It can boot LocoScript, CP/M, SymbOS ( > http://www.symbos.de/ ) and I have a feeling that there is/was a > Contiki port for it as well ( http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Contiki > ). There's quite a variety of OSs. > > What would you want to change the ROM for? Suppose I wanted to use 1.44M 3.5" floppies. The hardware (with a bit of tweaking) is capable of it. No way to get to the boot software, however. Suppose I wanted to boot from a home-built CF card... There's *always* a reason. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 23 22:23:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:23:06 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036DD93.1030808@ubanproductions.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com>, <5036D533.2020706@gmail.com>, <5036DD93.1030808@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5036912A.26412.113A445@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2012 at 20:49, Tom Uban wrote: > I'm picturing a USB driver for CP/M - GACK! Well, there's always one of the FTDI Vinculum modules...I believe that they have a capability for UART I/O. I'm surprised that no one mentioned CP/M for the Z8000. There was one. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 22:27:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 23:27:50 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036D549.8000603@brouhaha.com> References: <5036D549.8000603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I prefer kits for many reasons : They normally come with adequate >> documatation. > > You must be finding different kits than I see around here. Most of them > I've seen in the last 15 years have a pre-programmed code-locked > microcontroller with no source code, so all you can learn by building the > kit is soldering skills. I've built several kits from Vince Briel and Bob Armstrong over the past 15 years - I've got source, schematics, GAL equations, and I usually buy bare boards and source my own components and burn my own programmable devices (ROMs, MCUs, and logic devices) for them. -ethan From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Aug 23 22:38:13 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:38:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 24 August 2012 00:29, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> And? >> >> And? I don't know about half the people on this list, but I could use more >> work myself. If he is in really bad shape then he should have sent a short >> message to the list, but don't harvest email addresses and send out >> individual emails to a whole bunch of random people. > > Sure, it was bad manners, poor netiquette, but it was an honest effort > and a first-time thing. If he does it again, or tries to sell us > anything, then problem, Right... > but TBH I think you're over-reacting a bit, that's all. Why? I've not gone torches and pitchforks over it (yet). I did however express my point of view (as have many others). For that fact, if I was looking to hire someone, and I knew that they had spammed a large number of people, I would most likely place their name at the bottom of my list. > Poor decision, yes, agreed, but no harm done to us. To his rep or > standing, yes, maybe, but that is his problem, not ours. I can agree with you partially...however it is also our problem. If people hadn't spoken up, what would stop the next potential 'spammer' of this type from doing the very same thing? For that fact, I wonder how many people might have submitted his email as spam? I suspect he has been publicly shamed enough now though. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 23 22:38:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:38:54 -0600 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > Poor decision, yes, agreed, but no harm done to us. To his rep or > standing, yes, maybe, but that is his problem, not ours. ...and all the more reason why I wouldn't be interested in hiring him. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 23 22:58:20 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:58:20 -0500 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <5036FBDC.50801@jbrain.com> On 8/23/2012 10:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> but TBH I think you're over-reacting a bit, that's all. > > Why? I've not gone torches and pitchforks over it (yet). I did however > express my point of view (as have many others). For that fact, if I > was looking to hire someone, and I knew that they had spammed a large > number of people, I would most likely place their name at the bottom > of my list. I know some will disagree, but I find this continued ranting and whining about the original email just as bad as spam. It's unsolicited (it is off-topic, for sure, and has nothing to do with classic computers), it is bulk (via the mailing list), and it comes via email. Either send the man some work, or don't, but can we debate whether it's spam in some other mailing list? (Yes, I am aware of the irony of adding yet another "spammy" message to this already tired thread...) Jim From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Aug 24 00:30:31 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:30:31 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <27F01011-797C-4771-9FDC-7C754D400412@zipcon.net> On Aug 23, 2012, at 4:45 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. >> >> I like the Kaypros fine, but I like the Commodore 128 better for CP/M. It >> may be slow, but it's a nice implementation. > > While I like the Kaypros, I prefer my TRS-80 Model 4 as a CP/M system. Back in the day, I ran Montezuma Micro CP/M 2.2 on this system and with its second bank of 64KB available as a RAMdisk, it was quite snappy. MM also had the capability of defining virtual drives as other CP/M formats, so you could have, for example, a D: drive set up as a Kaypro or Osborne format. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > my 2 favorite cp/m machines were the Dec Rainbow and the Tandy 6000. the 6K could run any of the many flavors of Model 2 CP/M plus it could run CP/M 68K (IIRC there were 2 flavors of that one for the 16/6000, Pickles and Trout and I want to say lighthouse, but could be wrong on the second one.) From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 24 00:45:12 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 00:45:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <5036FBDC.50801@jbrain.com> References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> <5036FBDC.50801@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > On 8/23/2012 10:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> but TBH I think you're over-reacting a bit, that's all. >> >> Why? I've not gone torches and pitchforks over it (yet). I did however >> express my point of view (as have many others). For that fact, if I was >> looking to hire someone, and I knew that they had spammed a large number of >> people, I would most likely place their name at the bottom of my list. > I know some will disagree, but I find this continued ranting and whining > about the original email just as bad as spam. It's unsolicited (it is > off-topic, for sure, and has nothing to do with classic computers), it is > bulk (via the mailing list), and it comes via email. > > Either send the man some work, or don't, but can we debate whether it's spam > in some other mailing list? > > (Yes, I am aware of the irony of adding yet another "spammy" message to this > already tired thread...) > > Jim > *plonk* From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 24 00:49:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <27F01011-797C-4771-9FDC-7C754D400412@zipcon.net> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <27F01011-797C-4771-9FDC-7C754D400412@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <20120823224547.K2970@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Geoff Reed wrote: > my 2 favorite cp/m machines were the Dec Rainbow and the Tandy 6000. > the 6K could run any of the many flavors of Model 2 CP/M plus it could > run CP/M 68K (IIRC there were 2 flavors of that one for the 16/6000, > Pickles and Trout and I want to say lighthouse, but could be wrong on > the second one.) You are probably thinking of "Lifeboat". From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Thu Aug 23 08:10:19 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 23:10:19 +1000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <6DE60E75-4489-4BD2-94C5-3141B864E698@neurotica.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <6DE60E75-4489-4BD2-94C5-3141B864E698@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <60293AB4-B327-4C9C-AFF5-082B97417360@kerberos.davies.net.au> Clearly the best CP/M system I ever used was based on a software emulation of an 8080 (might have been an 8085) running on a VAX. All the useful CP/M software with the hardware reliability of a VAX :-) I should see if I have the source code and recompile it for a modern Itanium system (it was written in VAX BASIC IIRC). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From kenm at timetraveler.org Thu Aug 23 14:00:52 2012 From: kenm at timetraveler.org (kenm at timetraveler.org) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:00:52 -0700 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823100412.H85589@shell.lmi.net> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <20120823100412.H85589@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <794B8D4151867145884C82D18E92B22E79614D2F21@P3PW5EX1MB11.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET> The Otrona was a great little machine. There was even a 'PC' add-in card that allowed it to run MS DOS. They were prone to frying the video controller chip. I resorted to gluing a heatsink to the top of the chip. (Adam Osborne was a jerk.. At least in person) He scuttled his own company by announcing a new version of their computers well before it was ready to ship. Stuck with a glut of hardware nobody would buy, they ended up folding. This was all just before the first versions of the 'laptops' came out - Most notable - the Data General DG1 and the Toshiba 100. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 10:06 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Kaypro II > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: > > At least out here on the west coast you would be lucky to get $40 for > > Kaypro. There really isn't much love for the all in one cp/m boxes > in > > general. They never really made any emotional connection with people. > > All work no play. The Kaypro were about the least interesting of the > > lot too. > > The Kaypro case looked too "homemade" for some people. > The Osborne changed THAT. > > Why didn't the Otrona catch on? > Charlie Chaplin [clone] carrying a table with computer down stairs > wasn't enough? From nick.allen at comcast.net Thu Aug 23 15:54:48 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:54:48 -0500 Subject: Sun 1 Computer - Here are the photos Message-ID: <50369898.9010808@comcast.net> Check out the photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/Sun1Computer?authkey=Gv1sRgCIbH_7Hv0betKw Still need a way to get the Sun Series 2 Keyboard and Mouse working on the Sun 100u. Is my best bet trying to connect it to the SUN2 CPU series conectors, or the bwtwo prime mono video board serial connectors? Anyone have pinouts for the keyboard? Thanks a million! Nick From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 23 16:15:10 2012 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:15:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: from "cctech-request@classiccmp.org" at Aug 23, 2012 10:41:23 am GMT Message-ID: > Personally, I'm partial to the Amstrad PCW line.While it was marketed > as a dedicated word processor in much of the world, it had gobs of RAM > (at least 256KB), high-resolution monochrome graphics (720x256) and > shipped with a very nice CP/M Plus implementation which included a > better-than-average BASIC as well as DRI LOGO and the GSX graphics > libraries. The non-standard 3 inch floppies are a bit of a drag, but > it was fairly easy to add 3.5 inch drives and even hard drives were > available. Second-generation PCWs corrected that; they had 3.5" drives. And later iterations of the BIOS supported loadable device drivers, with all sorts of possibilities for mischief. -- John Elliott From elazzerini at interfree.it Thu Aug 23 16:36:58 2012 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 23:36:58 +0200 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II Message-ID: <00f701cd8177$6cf9bd50$46ed37f0$@it> I could not help but become part of the conversation even if people have already written more 'diligent and competent than me. My site is http://elazzerini.interfree.it Originally my disposal clone a Ferguson Bigboard I that I was able to start charging even CP / M 2.2 to 3.5" diskettes. Obviously I could not help but come into possession of his descendants: the Xerox 820-I and the Kaypro-II whose reviews I entered the site and are still working. The only board xerox 820-I has been assembled by me in a PC case for making all the corrections have composite video, and use PS2 interface-parallel drive with 3.5 ". The Kaypro II was full of his case but with a full size 5.25" drive out of service and when buying a separate drive full size 5.25 " is fully operational. I'm happy to have just these two machines, but fully functional. I could not afford them to buy them with the original prices of the 80's. To assess the selling rate of your Kaypro-II if the goal is to gain much more money I suggest whether it is fully functional and free of scratches, it is best to sell it to pieces, only one drive fullsize 5.25 " fully functional sold separately makes it almost more 'all over the computer alone. Probably be able to sell the first pair of drive 5.25 ", then the mainboard and then the keyboard or the power supply while you remain the case and the monitor. I do not think could you sell it in bulk to achieve a fair return if the product Kaypro-II at that time very popular. At least every three days you find it for sale on epay. I am currently looking for other boards like the Ferguson Bigboard II or the Ampro Little Board based on the Z80 or Z80 based mainboard in general other. Greetings Enrico - Pisa (Italy) From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 20:37:22 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:37:22 +1200 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > microcode at zoho.com wrote: > >> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? >> > > If you are keen for lots of point to point wiring, http://searle.hostei.com/grant/cpm/index.html is a really neat design. I built one on prototype board..... images before the compact flash adaptor was added http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_Z80_1.jpg and http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_Z80_2.jpg. The Z80 and SIO chips are circa 1979 but the 128K static ram (wasted really seeing as only 64k is used due to the minimal address decoding), Atmel 29C010 Flash ROM (rather than EPROM) and compact flash card make it an interesting old/new mix. I am planning to use more of the flash ROM by allowing multiple ROM images to be selectable. Might even go crazy and add a blinking lights panel. JAQ From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Aug 24 01:11:19 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 01:11:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <691BCBE8-24D3-4717-A96A-EBD08497653A@mactec.com.au> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> <691BCBE8-24D3-4717-A96A-EBD08497653A@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Chris Pye wrote: > On 24/08/2012, at 9:41 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >>> Instead, the "Microsoft Z80 SoftCard". >>> A Z80 co-processor card, WITH CP/M included for the Apple ][. >>> Sorry, not the Apple 1. >>> >>> It was extremely popular. At one point, APPLE declared that 25% of >>> Apple][ owners had one! (And THAT was before the generic clones of it >>> became available) >> >> I have one of these boards, new in box actually. Unfortunately, the university "surplus" dolt destroyed the new/unused software disks which originally came with it before it went for auction. "But we always destroy software..." Dumbass. >> >> Does anyone have disk images of the original disks which were included with these boards? > > > You can find them at http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/ Thanks! In case anyone else might be looking, they are in http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Interface%20Cards/Z80%20Cards/Microsoft%20SoftCard/ From microcode at zoho.com Fri Aug 24 01:12:44 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 06:12:44 +0000 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 08:16:24PM +0000, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > To answer your question regarding an original altair price, an 8800 > generally sells around $1800 to $3000 depending on what's included and if > its shown to work. Quite expensive. Thanks for the info. I had no idea. > I've heard Grant Stockly (hope I'm not missing an 'e' there) is also going > to resume his Altair replicas. They're beautiful systems and exact clones > but with that level of work it also demands a higher price tag. I think > they were running around 1200? Still cheaper than the originals! -- _ _ ._ _ _ <_> ___ _ _ ___ ___ ___ _| | ___ | ' ' || |/ | '| '_>/ . \/ | '/ . \/ . |/ ._> |_|_|_||_|\_|_.|_| \___/\_|_.\___/\___|\___. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 01:52:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 02:52:06 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823170615.U93055@shell.lmi.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> <5036B5D4.9040806@neurotica.com> <20120823170615.U93055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50372496.6080508@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2012 08:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> A Z80 co-processor card, WITH CP/M included for the Apple ][. > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> There was a really nice one for ISA-bus PCs in the 8088 era. I had >> one, it was great. I'd love to get one again but they're pretty thin on >> the ground. I don't recall offhand what it was called, but it was blue. > > Blue Thunder? > Blue Lightning? > Z80MU? > There were a lot of them! Yes there were. I don't think it was any of those. I'll know it when I see it. I think we discussed it here a few years ago. Baby Blue! That's it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Aug 24 02:05:37 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 00:05:37 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823224547.K2970@shell.lmi.net> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <27F01011-797C-4771-9FDC-7C754D400412@zipcon.net> <20120823224547.K2970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8C96490F-7991-4AC0-BA08-A868EB963F55@zipcon.net> On Aug 23, 2012, at 10:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Geoff Reed wrote: >> my 2 favorite cp/m machines were the Dec Rainbow and the Tandy 6000. >> the 6K could run any of the many flavors of Model 2 CP/M plus it could >> run CP/M 68K (IIRC there were 2 flavors of that one for the 16/6000, >> Pickles and Trout and I want to say lighthouse, but could be wrong on >> the second one.) > > You are probably thinking of "Lifeboat". > thank you... From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Aug 24 02:18:36 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 00:18:36 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> Message-ID: <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> Since I bought one of original installment "kits" I guess I can answer. The Altair kit was shipped as monthly component / kit assembly. Case, power supply, front panel, mother board.,CPU, board, 256 Byte memory, One was was received each month. The anticipation was horrible. The last shipment was the CPU and I was unable to get the machine to work in any way. I figured I had screwed up and didn't try to recover my loss or demand a new part from "what ever the hell their name was" MITS? Micro instrumentation and telemetry systems? Hell, I'm not brain dead yet!. No internet, 2 minutes to recall, Fair weekend and 4 beers under my belt. On summer vacation a few years later, I purchased another CPU and the machine worked. Intel later denied any sub-standard or defective parts were shipped to MITS for the machine.In public Jim. microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 08:16:24PM +0000, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> To answer your question regarding an original altair price, an 8800 >> generally sells around $1800 to $3000 depending on what's included and if >> its shown to work. Quite expensive. > Thanks for the info. I had no idea. > >> I've heard Grant Stockly (hope I'm not missing an 'e' there) is also going >> to resume his Altair replicas. They're beautiful systems and exact clones >> but with that level of work it also demands a higher price tag. I think >> they were running around 1200? > Still cheaper than the originals! > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 04:39:09 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:39:09 +0100 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: On 24 August 2012 04:38, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 24 August 2012 00:29, Tothwolf wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> And? >>> >>> >>> And? I don't know about half the people on this list, but I could use >>> more >>> work myself. If he is in really bad shape then he should have sent a >>> short >>> message to the list, but don't harvest email addresses and send out >>> individual emails to a whole bunch of random people. >> >> >> Sure, it was bad manners, poor netiquette, but it was an honest effort >> and a first-time thing. If he does it again, or tries to sell us >> anything, then problem, > > > Right... > > >> but TBH I think you're over-reacting a bit, that's all. > > > Why? I've not gone torches and pitchforks over it (yet). All right, conceded. :?) > I did however > express my point of view (as have many others). For that fact, if I was > looking to hire someone, and I knew that they had spammed a large number of > people, I would most likely place their name at the bottom of my list. I could understand that, yes. >> Poor decision, yes, agreed, but no harm done to us. To his rep or >> standing, yes, maybe, but that is his problem, not ours. > > I can agree with you partially...however it is also our problem. If people > hadn't spoken up, what would stop the next potential 'spammer' of this type > from doing the very same thing? Um. Even people speaking up has done nothing to prevent this and I don't think it will. > For that fact, I wonder how many people > might have submitted his email as spam? True. > I suspect he has been publicly > shamed enough now though. Also true. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 04:41:45 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:41:45 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 22:15, John Elliott wrote: >> Personally, I'm partial to the Amstrad PCW line.While it was marketed >> as a dedicated word processor in much of the world, it had gobs of RAM >> (at least 256KB), high-resolution monochrome graphics (720x256) and >> shipped with a very nice CP/M Plus implementation which included a >> better-than-average BASIC as well as DRI LOGO and the GSX graphics >> libraries. The non-standard 3 inch floppies are a bit of a drag, but >> it was fairly easy to add 3.5 inch drives and even hard drives were >> available. > > Second-generation PCWs corrected that; they had 3.5" drives. And later > iterations of the BIOS supported loadable device drivers, with all sorts of > possibilities for mischief. Hey, John, welcome! Have you just joined or been here lurking all along? In CP/M, isn't the BIOS just a file on disk anyway? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 06:51:08 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 07:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208232130.q7NLU3b69764874@floodgap.com> References: <201208232130.q7NLU3b69764874@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I'm not sure if cpm was available for the apple 1 but thatd be another >>> cheaper option is a replica-1 running cpm. >> >> I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, >> you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. > > I doubt it personally. All the CP/Ms that "ran" on 6502-based systems > required some sort of Z80 expansion (C64, Apple II, and "sort of" the C128). Actually, there was an unofficial port of CP/M to 6502: DOS65 by Richard Leary. See: http://www.z80.eu/dos65.html -- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 24 09:20:21 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 07:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: from Steven Hirsch at "Aug 24, 12 07:51:08 am" Message-ID: <201208241420.q7OEKL2n4063236@floodgap.com> > Actually, there was an unofficial port of CP/M to 6502: DOS65 by Richard > Leary. See: > > http://www.z80.eu/dos65.html Very interesting. But I don't see a PIP :( -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We only pretend to have standards. -- Unknown producer, ABC-TV ------------- From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Aug 24 09:21:04 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:21:04 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823135932.GE16844@zoho.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <20120823135932.GE16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <00CA0FAF-52CE-410B-8C19-70AE55D6CC40@me.com> I suppose you could ask on the N8VEM google group if there's anyone willing to assemble one for you for some cash. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-23, at 9:59 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:14:16AM -0400, David Riley wrote: >> On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:56 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: >> >>> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? >> >> I suppose it depends on your definition of "ready-to-go". > > A complete, preassembled SBC. > >> The N8VEM homebrew SBC (and its S100 cousins) run CP/M, but as far >> as I know they're only available as bare boards (you supply >> the chips and discretes). Still, they're very nice bare boards >> designed to be hand-soldered, so they're very well laid out, >> have good silkscreen and have only through-hole parts. So it >> could be a fun weekend project to put one together! > > I've been admiring those and I would love to build a couple of them but I > can't get to my tools now and where I live I can't get parts easily. So if I > get anything it has to be "ready to go". > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 24 09:22:10 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 07:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <60293AB4-B327-4C9C-AFF5-082B97417360@kerberos.davies.net.au> from Huw Davies at "Aug 23, 12 11:10:19 pm" Message-ID: <201208241422.q7OEMA9v4522114@floodgap.com> > I should see if I have the source code and recompile it for a modern Itanium > system (it was written in VAX BASIC IIRC). I would love to see that source code. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Surrender" from "Tomorrow Never Dies" ------------- From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Aug 24 09:24:18 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:24:18 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> Message-ID: <3BE423CA-F900-4D0A-8453-BF8B51384413@me.com> Thanks for posting that link, the guy has some great stuff! -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-23, at 10:32 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 09:19:06AM -0400, Rich Cini wrote: >>> Do you mean hobbyist or COTS? There are several hobby SBCs that can do it, >> including the P112 and N8VEM. There are 68k and 8086 boards as well. >> >> I don't know what COTS is. I read about several nice looking kits but I was >> wondering if there's anything you can buy complete, over the counter these >> days or if everybody is running CP/M on old boxes. > > COTS == Commercial Off The Shelf. > > Check this out: http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=18 > > It's Vince Briel's Altair 8800 Micro. > > g. > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 24 09:34:06 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 07:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208241420.q7OEKL2n4063236@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Aug 24, 12 07:20:21 am" Message-ID: <201208241434.q7OEY6Df10289152@floodgap.com> > > Actually, there was an unofficial port of CP/M to 6502: DOS65 by Richard > > Leary. See: > > > > http://www.z80.eu/dos65.html > > Very interesting. But I don't see a PIP :( Also, going through his BASIC-E port, it dawns on me I am not able to find the original BASIC-E source. A few minutes of Googling was fruitless, just a reference manual and some interviews with Eubanks. Does anyone have this? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Helmet: But when will Now be Then?!?! Sandurz: Soon. -- "Spaceballs" ------- From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Aug 24 09:35:31 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:35:31 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Plus the satisfaction of building it yourself. I find that to be the most rewarding part. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-23, at 5:11 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> I personally like the kits because I like to build them, get them >> working, and support other vintage computing hobbyists and their projects. > > I prefer kits for many reasons : > > They normally come with adequate documatation. > > I can assmeble them with 'proper' leadad solder, so connections stay good > > I will use quality paets where I can. Turned-pin DIL sockets, 105 degree > capacitors, etc. Not the cheapest parts all the time > > I can make any modifiactions I need to. > > -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 24 10:18:47 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 08:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036A883.2030403@mac.com> References: <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <5036A883.2030403@mac.com> Message-ID: For they Kaypro fans in the audience, you might want to stop over here: http://www.retroarchive.org/docs/magazines/profiles/index.html I've scanned a ton of the Kaypro Profiles magazines. They're not OCRed however. If you have an issue that would fill a hole in the collection, please let me know! (Note with magazines, I do destructive scanning - the binding is sheared off and fed into a high-speed duplexing scanner) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 24 10:26:01 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 08:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120823142615.L93055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > I have one of these boards, new in box actually. Unfortunately, the > university "surplus" dolt destroyed the new/unused software disks which > originally came with it before it went for auction. "But we always destroy > software..." Dumbass. > > Does anyone have disk images of the original disks which were included with > these boards? > Tothwolf, check here: http://apple2info.net/hardware/softcard/softcard.htm There's a disk image link on the right column of the page. Lots of docs too. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 10:27:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 08:27:02 -0700 Subject: Wabash Floppies Message-ID: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> Has anyone had any success at all recently in recovering data from Wabash-branded floppies? I haven't. The binder on these things has gone to Hades and the oxide will flake off if you so much as touch it with a drive. Yesterday, I thought I'd try again after swearing off of the things, as the disks in question were 10-sector rather than soft-sector. I wondered if 10-sector being rarer than the soft-sector variety might not be different. No soap. That grinding sound, accompanied by dirty heads tells me that *no* Wabash disk is worth touching. Anyone got any secrets for these? Cheers, --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 24 10:29:25 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 08:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > >> microcode at zoho.com wrote: >>> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? >> >> David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> There was the P112, which I distributed until I ran out. If I can get >>> together a couple thousand dollars, I can kickstart a new run of them. See >>> http://661.org/p112/ >> >> Maybe it would actually make a good Kickstarter project? > > I've thought off and on about doing that. Maybe I should sit down this > weekend and redo the numbers and give it a shot. DOOOOO EEEEET! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 24 10:58:32 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 08:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <3BE423CA-F900-4D0A-8453-BF8B51384413@me.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> <3BE423CA-F900-4D0A-8453-BF8B51384413@me.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > Thanks for posting that link, the guy has some great stuff! Yes he does. I could dump a ton of money there. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 24 11:00:31 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 09:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wabash Floppies In-Reply-To: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Has anyone had any success at all recently in recovering data from > Wabash-branded floppies? > > I haven't. The binder on these things has gone to Hades and the > oxide will flake off if you so much as touch it with a drive. > > Yesterday, I thought I'd try again after swearing off of the things, > as the disks in question were 10-sector rather than soft-sector. I > wondered if 10-sector being rarer than the soft-sector variety might > not be different. > > No soap. That grinding sound, accompanied by dirty heads tells me > that *no* Wabash disk is worth touching. > > Anyone got any secrets for these? > Can they be baked to refresh the binder? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 10:14:07 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:14:07 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> David Gesswein wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:21:57PM -0400, Allison wrote: > >> Unlike many when CP/M came about in the mid 70s I'd experience >> with OS/8 and TOPS-10 and wished that CP/M was more. >> >> > I haven't used CP/M. What was the significant items that were better > about OS/8 than CP/M? I had thought they were similar in capability (and > even shared some command names). > > The biggest difference was OS/8 was multi-task/multi-user. It also existed and was more powerful than CP/M years earlier on a CPU (PDP-8) that was more primitive. Not to say I was unhappy or even disappointed just a comparison. I've used CP/M since its introduction and ported it extensively. I've gone as far as to mod it internally to suit my needs and make improvements. It did background processing if you were creative in the BIOS. I still use it, I have many machines that run it (more than 20). It was state of the art then, DOS didn't really improve it much save for nested directories and some limited background processing. Nothing was ever available that left more of the 64K usable for applications and could interface to any mass storage or IO. I built a simple machine a short while ago using 32MB CF for storage and two serial ports, 64K ram and 32K of EEprom as a minimal system that could run on battery. None of the other Z80 OSs could do that without a lot of redevelopment pain. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 10:19:01 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:19:01 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036D533.2020706@gmail.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <5036D3E3.5020007@brouhaha.com> <5036D533.2020706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50379B65.3020409@verizon.net> mc68010 wrote: > On 8/23/2012 6:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> microcode at zoho.com wrote: >>> Are there any modern ready-to-go SBCs capable of running CP/M? >> >> David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> There was the P112, which I distributed until I ran out. If I can >>> get together a couple thousand dollars, I can kickstart a new run of >>> them. See http://661.org/p112/ >>> >> >> Maybe it would actually make a good Kickstarter project? >> > > Are there any versions of cp/m for any of the Zilog Z8 evaluation > boards like this > http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ZiLOG/Z8F04A28100KITG/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduh8s%2fmA%252be6nuKamYhvQLdzZVsXSy1pbOZM%3d > > The Z8 is not Z80 [not the same Arch or instruction set] and is a smaller chip design as a single chip microcontroller. CP/M is not a fit for that. Ez80 is close enough though. > They sell for less than $50. Seems much easier than designing one off > home made z80 boards. > UR kiddin? All that is needed is Z80, 32-64K ram, some rom to boot, some mass-storage, and a userIO [serial or parallel port to a terminal]. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 11:20:26 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:20:26 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <3BE423CA-F900-4D0A-8453-BF8B51384413@me.com> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <50362610.1070205@jwsss.com> <20120823125650.GD16844@zoho.com> <1FF41B43-E3DE-4DC4-AAD2-8CBB27E5BDB1@verizon.net> <20120823140152.GF16844@zoho.com> <3BE423CA-F900-4D0A-8453-BF8B51384413@me.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Thanks for posting that link, the guy has some great stuff! >> Check this out: http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=18 >> >> It's Vince Briel's Altair 8800 Micro. Yep. I've bought more than one kit from him (and even was able to drop by his old place in Cleveland before he moved to get a spare part or two). I don't have the mini Altair but I did see him show it off at VCFmw in Lombard, IL, a couple of years back. I highly recommend his stuff! -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 11:30:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 09:30:57 -0700 Subject: Wabash Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <503749D1.31139.46942D@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 9:00, geneb wrote: > Can they be baked to refresh the binder? I've tried that, with no luck. Again, has anyone had any luck with this brand? --Chuck From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Aug 24 06:57:22 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 07:57:22 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:21:57PM -0400, Allison wrote: > > Unlike many when CP/M came about in the mid 70s I'd experience > with OS/8 and TOPS-10 and wished that CP/M was more. > I haven't used CP/M. What was the significant items that were better about OS/8 than CP/M? I had thought they were similar in capability (and even shared some command names). From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 24 11:37:11 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 09:37:11 -0700 Subject: Wabash Floppies In-Reply-To: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5037ADB7.1090109@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/12 8:27 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anyone got any secrets for these? > Try pulling the media and cleaning it with Weber Costello Markerboard Cleaner, then let it thoroughly dry. I am really curious if this works for anyone else. I've tried it a couple of times and have had some success with batches of media that were complete trash. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 12:09:40 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:09:40 -0500 Subject: Wabash Floppies In-Reply-To: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> References: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5037B554.7030007@gmail.com> On 08/24/2012 10:27 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yesterday, I thought I'd try again after swearing off of the things, > as the disks in question were 10-sector rather than soft-sector. I > wondered if 10-sector being rarer than the soft-sector variety might > not be different. No, my experience of the soft-sector ones was exactly the same, with a failure rate very near 100%. I got sick of dealing with them and having to clean drive heads after every single one (and in one memorable case it tore one of the heads clean out of the drive when it shed its oxide layer). I'm sure I've complained about them on the list before (and certain Parrot disks, although those seem to be a bit more of a lottery and don't *always* cause problems). cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 12:32:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:32:21 -0700 Subject: Wabash Floppies In-Reply-To: <5037ADB7.1090109@bitsavers.org> References: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com>, <5037ADB7.1090109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50375835.18942.7ECACD@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 9:37, Al Kossow wrote: >> Try pulling the media and cleaning it with Weber Costello Markerboard > Cleaner, then let it thoroughly dry. Seems to be mostly water (>90 percent) with some PEG and ethylene glycol added. If the customer insists, I'll give it a try. But this isn't a simple case of oxide shedding. The damned oxide doesn't even stick to the substrate. Horrible, horrible stuff. The web turns up similar experiences: http://majzel.blogspot.com/2008/05/wabash-destroyer.html http://gja.space4me.com/things/Recovering_My_BBC_Micro.html http://www.theusenetarchive.com/usenet-message-%22flakey%22-8-inch- diskettes-was-re-steve-nasa-has-a-problem-they-need-you-11376810.htm --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 13:21:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:21:48 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <50367CCA.1010703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5037C63C.6060300@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2012 04:20 PM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 08/23/2012 09:47 AM, geneb wrote: >>>> I think Kaypros are among the best CP/M machines ever built. Compact >>>> (for the day), reliable, quick, very nice overall. I sold and >>>> serviced them for a few years, and I happily collect and enjoy them >>>> now. >>> >>> I've got a pair of 1200 baud internal Hayes compatible smartmodems you >>> might be interested in. >> >> Sure! >> > Email me with your address and I'll ship one off to you. Done. Thanks! > The modem board > itself is attached to the bottom of the main logic board via > double-sided foam tape. The modem connects to the Kaypro via a ribbon > cable and a tiny daughterboard that plugs into the sockets used for the > 1488/1489 line drivers on the main logic board. The removed line > drivers then plug into the top of the daughterboard. It lets you use > the serial port in kind of a pass-through fashion I think. The only > thing I found on the net about them was an old Infoworld review - they > sold for an absolutely ungodly amount. Neat. I'm hoping to come up with a scheme to demo them here. I have a few ideas in mind. >>> I'd love to find one of those add-on boards that would allow IDE or CF >>> to be used - the HD in my 10 isn't going to last forever. :( >> >> GIDE works in the Kaypros I think. >> > Is anyone selling them? Not that I'm aware of, but the circuit is dead simple. >> The drive in my '10 died about two years ago. :-( I have another one, >> I just have to get around to installing it, and figure out if I want to >> change out the ROM in the process. Is there one that I can get an image >> for that you would recommend for the '10? >> > I like the KayPLUS ROM. It seems to add a number of nice features to > the system. Like what? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 13:34:57 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:34:57 -0400 Subject: Wabash Floppies In-Reply-To: <5037ADB7.1090109@bitsavers.org> References: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> <5037ADB7.1090109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <07b801cd8227$2a3d0570$7eb71050$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Al Kossow wrote" > Try pulling the media and cleaning it with Weber Costello Markerboard > Cleaner, then let it thoroughly dry. I wonder if you could pull the media and apply a spray coat of very fine, very hard lacquer. That might smooth the surface and hold the oxide in place long enough to get a good read. Otherwise, I wonder if you could apply that solution that you used to use with mag tapes. That stuff that makes the flux transitions visible. Then scan the disk with a high resolution scanner and see if you could decode the image. Bill S. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 24 14:40:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <8C96490F-7991-4AC0-BA08-A868EB963F55@zipcon.net> References: <201208230449.q7N4n8tH14483544@floodgap.com> <27F01011-797C-4771-9FDC-7C754D400412@zipcon.net> <20120823224547.K2970@shell.lmi.net> <8C96490F-7991-4AC0-BA08-A868EB963F55@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <20120824123218.D21566@shell.lmi.net> > >> Pickles and Trout and I want to say lighthouse, but could be wrong on > >> the second one.) > > You are probably thinking of "Lifeboat". Besides peddling CP/M ports, Lifeboat for a while was the primary "official" retail and wholesale outlet for Microsoft. When Microsoft announced FORTRAN for TRS80, I needed some copies in a hurry, for a community college to use for a FORTRAN class. Lifeboat told me 2 weeks. When they didn't show, I called and they said a few days. When they didn't show, I called and they said already shipped. When they didn't show, I called and they said a few days. When they didn't show, I called and they said a few weeks. I was going to be changing planes in Seattle on the way back from the eclipse. I called Bob Wallace at Microsoft. He ran off three copies, and waited for me at the airport. Those were the first three copies. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Aug 24 14:49:08 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:49:08 -0400 Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <5035ee12.e255b40a.77b0.2866@mx.google.com> References: <5035ee12.e255b40a.77b0.2866@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5037DAB4.4080107@compsys.to> > > >[Snip] >Sorry if it was offensive! >And thanks in advance for your attention. > And as some of you have stated, the market these days is MUCH more difficult than it was a few years ago. I have been waiting to observe if anyone else mentioned the following two points: When you consider that probably every other response has used more bytes than the original request (including this one - and there have been at least 20), it certainly seems reasonable to have sent the request. In addition, no links were activated when the body of the e-mail was displayed. On the rare occasions I receive spam these days, most of the time a link attempts to activate itself - which is almost always impossible since I try to remember to disconnect the cable to the router before I start to read any e-mail. If such a link had been included, that would have been unacceptable!!!!! Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 13:31:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:31:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Aug 23, 12 11:15:18 pm Message-ID: > > I was very kindly given a mint, BNIB-in-box PCW9512+ by listmember > Roger Pugh a couple of years ago. The little -known 9512+ replaces the > 3" floppies with a more standard 3?", which is handy. I stil lthink the mechancianl design of the 3" disk is superior to that of the 3/5" one. IIRC, the original PCW had a dot matrix printer as did the PCW9256. The PCW9512+ had a daisywheel printer. The print hammer in the latter used to break quite often, replacign them was not a diffcult job, and was something I did for friends from time to time. The symptom of a cracked hamemr was that the printer would 'go throuh the motions' but nothing would appear on the paper. The dot matrix printer conented by a 34 way ribbon cable. The interface was very low level -- the signals to the printhead and mtoor drivers. These (mostly?) came from an 8042 mcirocontroller in the main unit The daisywheel printer connected via a 14 pin (!) DIN plug. The interface was a custom serial one (not even close to RS232), there was another microcontrolelr in the printer. I beelvie the Canon BJ10 inkjet printer was supported on the PCW9512+, but I have never seen one used in that way. FWIW, I have the service manuals for hte PCW8256/8512, PCW9256 adn PCW9512+ to hand here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 13:41:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:41:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120823155057.H93055@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 23, 12 03:53:23 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QC10. Interesting hardware > > at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, etc. > > Is that like the QX-10? In which case, how do you like Valdocs? HTe difference is which key you press when typing an e-mail about it. In other words I meant the QX10, it's one of my many typos... My QX10 came with CP/M, I never got Valdocs, so I can't comment on it. The hardware technical manual seems to imply the Valdocs keyboard is different, and the keyboard I got with mine matches the scheamtics and layout for the CP/M one in said manual, so I don't know if I could make use of Valdocs f I did get it. > > > Or the Epson Geneve PX-8! A dozen of them will fit in a Kaypro case. Intersting little machine. I never much liked the fact that the directory of the microcassette was cahced in RAM and if you forgot to unmount the tape before ejecting it yyou could end up losing data on that tape _and on the next oen you loaded_. There's also the PX4. Another laptop CP/M machine. This oen has a 40 column LCD and a place alongside it for an expansion catridge. It also has the great advantage that it can run off 4 AA cells rather htna a custom NiCd pack, and if you do want to use the NiCd battery, you don;t need to grab a screwdriver to fit it. I haveb a 3rd party 513K RAMdisk cartridge in mine. I'd love to find some of the Epson cartridges for it. As well as the obvious microcassette drive (There is no built-in microcassette on the PX4), there was also a tiny printer, an EPROM programmer (!) and a DMM. Those would be serious fun. Did anyone ever do anything useful with the ADC input on the PX8, I wonder. I get the impression it was only there because there ws a spare channel on the ADC chip. The user manual expalins how to use it, complete with machien code listings (!). They don't write manuals like that any more :-( Does the Epson TF20 floppy drive unit count as a CP/M machine? For those who don't know this thing, it's the add-on floppy drive for the HX20/PX4/PX8. It's got 2 of those nice 5.25" voice-coil floppy drives and a controller board. That controller board contaisn a Z80A, 64K RAM, a 2K bootstrap EPROM, and a fair amount of glue logic. A daughterboard contains a 7201 serial chip and RS232 buffers to talk to the laptop. Thing is, it boots its OS from disk, and I am pretty srue it's based -- heavily -- on CP/M. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 13:49:00 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:49:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503659E8.7913.3BCA46@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 23, 12 04:27:20 pm Message-ID: > Somewhere I have a very blurry Schneider schematic (gives me a > headache to read it, but it's better than nothing). That sinking > feeling of not finding a PROM or ROM anywhere on the PCB really > bothered me. It certainjly was an unconventional design. I didnt like it much either, but then I dislike custom gate arrys in general... > > The power supply is barely adequate for the system. Rather than a Rememebr it was not intended to be really expanded. I fixed a number of PCWs #back i nthe day' and can't rememebr PSU problems being very common > simple overcurrent protector, the thing uses a bunch of those TO92- Err, R50002 seems to monitor the chopper transisotr emitter current, along with one of the transistors in IC5001 (the swithcing regualtor control IC > cased fuse-ish things. Those also are very uncommon over here. I You cna wirie in normal fast-blow fused if you hve to. Those 'circuit protectors' are not common over here, but you can get them > wonder how many PCWs were trashed because of one going and the repair > shop not having a clue. I would think very few. An Amsatrad service dealer would have hte service manual, and would be expected to check the PSU votlages early on. I believe Amstrad would supply a complete PSU/moitor PCB , but I susepct most dealers knew to change the circuit protector. As for other epople, well, the service manauls was trivial to get, and anyone clueful enough to get it owuld know to check said circuit protectors. Other people would go to the dealer (see above) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 14:02:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:02:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5036D549.8000603@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 23, 12 06:13:45 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I prefer kits for many reasons : They normally come with adequate > > documatation. > > You must be finding different kits than I see around here. Most of them I am very 'picky' in my choice of kits:-). If possible I try to see the manual before I buy the kit (some companies put them on their wrb pages) just to see what the design consists of. And if I don't like it, I don't buy the kit. There are some _horrible_ kits sold by Maplin over here. They claim to have associations with Middlesex University. They ridiculous feature is that there is no shcematic included.Now I can reverse-enginer them (last one I did had 3 74HC00s in it, as we all know I've doen things with rather more TTL than that). But how you can possibly learn from such a kit is beyond me... I have mentiond this before. Some years back I bought some 'robot' kits. One of them was, indeed, associated with Middlesex University (the box says 'Miuddlesex University Teaching Resources'.Theo thers were Far-Eastern in origin. The differnce is amazing. The first one contsists of 2 pre-assembled motor/gearbox units, a pre-built PCB containing an 8 pin PIC and a motor driver, and a couple of microcswitches. Assembly consists of screwwign the bits ot the chassis plate and conencting the wires to the screw terminal blocks on the PCB. There is no schematic in the insctructions, no source listing, no explanation of what you are doing. The far-eastern ones use an electret microphone to detect collisons (or ohter noise). The kits (which are similar in concept, although very differnet mechanically) consist of a pile of gears and spindles, a small motor, a bag of R's , Cs and a botu 10 discrete transisotrs, a bare PCB, etc. You get to sodler it all up and then screw it together. The instructions cotnai na scheamtic and even a simplified description of how it works (of the level 'this transistor amplifies the signal from the microphone' -- it doesn't expalin exactly waht the biasiing resisotrs do and how they were claculated). The latter seem much more educational to me. > I've seen in the last 15 years have a pre-programmed code-locked That's becuase nobody these days can design without a microcontroller. Or so it seems to me. > microcontroller with no source code, so all you can learn by building > the kit is soldering skills. Inm the case of the CP/M computer boards that started this thread, I beleive at least some fo them are 'open' meaning you get schematics, boot/bios sources, etc. I'ev not built any of them, but I woudl think you could learn a lot from those. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 14:14:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:14:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wabash Floppies In-Reply-To: <50373AD6.28668.C0F09@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 24, 12 08:27:02 am Message-ID: > > Has anyone had any success at all recently in recovering data from > Wabash-branded floppies? I never had any success in recovering data from them when they were new... -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 24 15:51:53 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5037C63C.6060300@neurotica.com> References: <50358D80.8040509@jwsss.com> <1540798262-1345689082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-241662666-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5035A3C3.503@gorge.net> <5035B08F.1050007@gmail.com> <8C7E2FBE-1474-48F7-903F-E1DB3DE1A489@neurotica.com> <50367CCA.1010703@neurotica.com> <5037C63C.6060300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> I'd love to find one of those add-on boards that would allow IDE or CF >>>> to be used - the HD in my 10 isn't going to last forever. :( >>> >>> GIDE works in the Kaypros I think. >>> >> Is anyone selling them? > > Not that I'm aware of, but the circuit is dead simple. > It is if you've got time to mess with it. I need something I can just drop into the box and go. >>> The drive in my '10 died about two years ago. :-( I have another one, >>> I just have to get around to installing it, and figure out if I want to >>> change out the ROM in the process. Is there one that I can get an image >>> for that you would recommend for the '10? >>> >> I like the KayPLUS ROM. It seems to add a number of nice features to >> the system. > I like the screen blanking for one - it also supports 3.5" drives, but I haven't had a chance to mess with that yet. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 24 15:54:25 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm looking for a job In-Reply-To: <5037DAB4.4080107@compsys.to> References: <5035ee12.e255b40a.77b0.2866@mx.google.com> <5037DAB4.4080107@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > In addition, no links were activated when the body of the e-mail > was displayed. On the rare occasions I receive spam these > days, most of the time a link attempts to activate itself - which > is almost always impossible since I try to remember to disconnect > the cable to the router before I start to read any e-mail. If such > a link had been included, that would have been unacceptable!!!!! Use Alpine so you don't have to go through that nonsense. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 24 15:55:53 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QC10. Interesting hardware >>> at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, etc. >> >> Is that like the QX-10? In which case, how do you like Valdocs? > > HTe difference is which key you press when typing an e-mail about it. In > other words I meant the QX10, it's one of my many typos... > Tony, your typos are not many, THEY ARE LEGION. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From chd at chdickman.com Fri Aug 24 16:01:42 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:01:42 -0400 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > I have successfully extracted the code from (4) PROMs on an RX02 > controller board. > > Thanks Chris! With the PROM images and after customizing Eric Smith's 2900 disassembler (Thanks Eric), I was able to generate a microcode listing. So far it is a one to one match with the Technical Manual flow chart. Disassembler: http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/rx02dis.c Uncommented listing: http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/rx02_microcode.lst -chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 24 16:21:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > In CP/M, isn't the BIOS just a file on disk anyway? There either needs to be a ROM, or key in enough code to load from disk. Do you consider the "system track[s]" that are NOT represented in the DIRectory to be "FILE[s]"? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 16:37:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:37:34 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: from "Liam Proven" at Aug 23, 12 11:15:18 pm, Message-ID: <503791AE.21690.15F48D5@cclist.sydex.com> One thing that's always bothered me about CP/M and MS-DOS, for that matter. Why, oh, why when the machine is doing nothing are the disk drive heads always (or nearly so) positioned over the directory track? While a glitch can wipe out a whole track, at least MS-DOS may allow one to recover the files based on the FAT contents (assuming that it doesn't share the same track as the directory), losing the directory track on a CP/M machine is suicide. One has to go and piece together the files cluster by cluster. Why not, during idle periods, move the heads one cylinder to a "leave garbage here" track? This was always a mystery to me. --Chuck From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Aug 24 16:39:26 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:39:26 +0100 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 August 2012 21:55, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> >>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> >>>> My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QC10. Interesting hardware >>>> at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, >>>> etc. >>> >>> >>> Is that like the QX-10? In which case, how do you like Valdocs? >> >> >> HTe difference is which key you press when typing an e-mail about it. In >> other words I meant the QX10, it's one of my many typos... >> > Tony, your typos are not many, THEY ARE LEGION. My friend used to run QBBS (my BBS software) on one of those, with an MS-DOS card in it. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 16:55:43 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:55:43 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> I was one of the very early adopters. I got the January 1975 PE [they actually arrive in late November to the first week in Decemeber for subscribers.] and since I'd worked with the 8008 and was in process for my on 8008 I took all of maybe 4 days to decide what I'd order and wrote the order letter. I had SN00200 in my hands and operational by the third week in January. I have the copy of PE that I'd scribbled all my notes on. The initial order was CPU, 4K ram, PIO, 88acr, front panel, case and power supply. It took me one sleepless weekend to assemble Case, panel, 4k ram and test. The next weekend was the 88ACR and the PIO. Then another weekend to debug the design errors (clock and front panel circuits had oneshots!) and make it run small programs from the front panel. I would interface a SWTP CT1024 to it during Feburary and early March. The next order was for the another 4K and 4K basic. Things I'd learned by summer. The power supply was crap. With the 5 boards I had it was barely able to power them (8V line was actually 7.8V with excess ripple). the fix for that was NOT free from MITS So I attacked it and rewound the transformer and added more caps to take out the ripple plus rectifiers heavy enough to stand the load. The front panel oneshots were a PITA and would remain so even after replacing all with the then believed better TI parts. the CPU clock was replaced with the 8224 and 18mhz crystal, I was seeing stability for the first time. The backplane rang like a struck bell, it was replaced with a third party 16 slot that was far cleaner two sided construction. The 88ACR was one of the worst tape interfaces ever used. I would design and build my own saturation cassette tape system using a Redactron drive. 4K basic load time went from 2-5 tries at 10 minutes each to first time and about a minute and most of that was toggling in the loader. The saturation system ran at 15kb/s compared to 300! At 16K of ram the power supply transformer for the 16V lines was an issue. In all I was spending a lot of time correcting original design errors and hardware flubs little to no programming was done. While dealing with that I would get the first copy of MITS Programming Package II, it was terrible, most of the issues were documentation. By fall of 1975 there were the new synchronous 4K memory boards (I bought 4 "upgrades" and they worked much better). Soon after there was a new 88CPU-B that featured the 8224 and a better layout with less timing and noise issues. I bought a NS* Z80 board instead Right about then Billy Gates put out his Hobbyists are thieves letter. Despite that I bought and paid for the BUGGY MITS BASIC V3.2 and then later bug reduced versions. Then I got a copy of PT 5K basic, way better. Also the PT assembly programming system. By the summer of 1977 I was using a NS* floppy disk system and in that late fall bought the NS* horizon chassis. That by far was the greatest improvement over the ALTAIR. However all the memory bought for the ALTAIR had to be replaced as they only work with the 8080 in an ALTAIR backplane, 4 SEALS 2102 based 8k static board were the fix for that. I would add another 2 Processor tech 8K 2102 memories to make 48K ram. That would lead to CP/M 1.3 and later 1.4 and decent software tools. Spring of 1978 the Altair was retired and considered part of my first great waste of money in computing hardware. I sold some of the memory over time and recovered much of my initial investment thanks to ALTAIR mainia, I still have the CPU, ACR, BOX, PIO, and some memory. I learned a great deal about building reliable micros but not near as much as I'd have liked about programming to that point. Over the years I'd worked with other ALTAIR owners and users plus a lot of 8080 based systems including the Hazeltine H500 series terminals and Never saw a bad CPI or any intel part (other than user destroyed). But the early MITS CPU timing was so bad that the poor 8080 never had a chance. The 8800A and later 8800B systems were far better. I have a 8800BT I rescued that is a solid machine still despite being one of the first deliveries. By time MITS had matured the design, many people had soured to the product and the market had proclaimed the Z80 was the cheaper and better way to go. Allison On 08/24/2012 03:18 AM, jimpdavis wrote: > Since I bought one of original installment "kits" I guess I can answer. > The Altair kit was shipped as monthly component / kit assembly. > Case, power supply, front panel, mother board.,CPU, board, 256 Byte > memory, One was was received each month. > The anticipation was horrible. > The last shipment was the CPU and I was unable to get the machine to > work in any way. > I figured I had screwed up and didn't try to recover my loss or demand > a new part from "what ever the hell their name was" MITS? > Micro instrumentation and telemetry systems? Hell, I'm not brain dead > yet!. > No internet, 2 minutes to recall, Fair weekend and 4 beers under my belt. > On summer vacation a few years later, I purchased another CPU and the > machine worked. > Intel later denied any sub-standard or defective parts were shipped to > MITS for the machine.In public > > Jim. > > > > > > microcode at zoho.com wrote: >> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 08:16:24PM +0000, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>> To answer your question regarding an original altair price, an 8800 >>> generally sells around $1800 to $3000 depending on what's included >>> and if >>> its shown to work. Quite expensive. >> Thanks for the info. I had no idea. >> >>> I've heard Grant Stockly (hope I'm not missing an 'e' there) is also >>> going >>> to resume his Altair replicas. They're beautiful systems and exact >>> clones >>> but with that level of work it also demands a higher price tag. I think >>> they were running around 1200? >> Still cheaper than the originals! >> > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 24 16:58:02 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120824144851.R25135@shell.lmi.net> > > Or the Epson Geneve PX-8! A dozen of them will fit in a Kaypro case. On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Intersting little machine. I never much liked the fact that the directory > of the microcassette was cahced in RAM and if you forgot to unmount the > tape before ejecting it yyou could end up losing data on that tape _and > on the next oen you loaded_. Seems familiar with some other systems. CP/M needed ^C when changing disks. So did MS-DOS! (sometimes) I never could find ANYWHERE in any Microsoft manuals any mention of pressing ^C when changing disks. Yes, it did sometimes use the cached DIRectory instead of the newly inserted disk! From doc at vaxen.net Fri Aug 24 17:19:26 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:19:26 -0500 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120824144851.R25135@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120824144851.R25135@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5037FDEE.6010606@vaxen.net> On 8/24/12 4:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Or the Epson Geneve PX-8! A dozen of them will fit in a Kaypro case. > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> Intersting little machine. I never much liked the fact that the directory >> of the microcassette was cahced in RAM and if you forgot to unmount the >> tape before ejecting it yyou could end up losing data on that tape _and >> on the next oen you loaded_. > > Seems familiar with some other systems. > CP/M needed ^C when changing disks. So did MS-DOS! (sometimes) > I never could find ANYWHERE in any Microsoft manuals any mention of > pressing ^C when changing disks. > Yes, it did sometimes use the cached DIRectory instead of the newly > inserted disk! I do seem to recall that one of my MS-DOS v5.0 manuals (Not an MS-branded manual - Dell maybe?) recommended running "exit" a couple of times before removing a floppy disk. I could be wrong about the source, but I'm pretty sure of the DOS version. Doc From doc at vaxen.net Fri Aug 24 17:29:28 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:29:28 -0500 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50380048.2060804@vaxen.net> On 8/24/12 4:55 PM, allison wrote: > Spring of 1978 the Altair was retired and considered part of my first > great waste of money in computing > hardware. I sold some of the memory over time and recovered much of my > initial investment thanks to > ALTAIR mainia, I still have the CPU, ACR, BOX, PIO, and some memory. I > learned a great deal about > building reliable micros but not near as much as I'd have liked about > programming to that point. Allison, this was one of the best ClassicCmp posts ever. Thank you!! Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 17:37:38 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:37:38 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 5:55 PM, allison wrote: > I was one of the very early adopters. I got the January 1975 PE... Great story, Allison! Thanks for taking the time to share it! -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 17:38:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:38:25 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry>, <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net>, <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50379FF1.6102.19701D9@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 17:55, allison wrote: > The power supply was crap. With the 5 boards I had it was barely > able to power them (8V line was actually > 7.8V with excess ripple). the fix for that was NOT free from MITS Yup, you could see the ripple in the front panel LEDs if you looked carefully. Two things high on my list were the awful 4K DRAM boards and the cheap white wire for connecting the CPU board to the front panel. It'd break if you looked at it. Why not ribbon cable is one of those things that remain a mystery. Those power switch traces on the front panel stung me one too many times. I installed a rear- panel switch and probably saved my life. I haven't powered mine up in over 30 years. I suspect that the PSU caps are empty shells by now. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 17:39:37 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:39:37 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503791AE.21690.15F48D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Liam Proven" at Aug 23, 12 11:15:18 pm, <503791AE.21690.15F48D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <503802A9.1040803@verizon.net> On 08/24/2012 05:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One thing that's always bothered me about CP/M and MS-DOS, for that > matter. Why, oh, why when the machine is doing nothing are the disk > drive heads always (or nearly so) positioned over the directory > track? > > While a glitch can wipe out a whole track, at least MS-DOS may allow > one to recover the files based on the FAT contents (assuming that it > doesn't share the same track as the directory), losing the directory > track on a CP/M machine is suicide. One has to go and piece together > the files cluster by cluster. > > Why not, during idle periods, move the heads one cylinder to a "leave > garbage here" track? > > This was always a mystery to me. Simple, Most of the systems ran without interrupts and did zero timekeeping so while the ap was running it was in control, when the ap returned control CPM was not keeping time either. In essence there was no "idle time" as that concept is only known to multitasking or forground background systems that used blocked IO and task lists to manage what the CPU was doing( rather than spinning in loops). For access time reasons CP/M was biased to seek to home (track000) as directory access was the most frequent and common. The CPU could not do anything during DISK IO as that was a tight IO loop without DMA or other assists. When disk got larger Deblocking was common and that results in caching of at least one physical sector but since ram was considered a scarce commodity a whole track cache was rarely done. The later systems with banked ram and running interrupts would include time outs and other features sorely needed and often omitted in early BIOSes. CP/M by design didn't rule out much so it was often up to the BIOS programmer to make things bullet proof. It was a trivial programming task to make writing the directory sectors twice in two places on the disk where one was outside the usual area. However, with disks under 360K reserving an extra track (typically 4K for a DD disk) was considered costly in terms of the limited disk space and access time during write (typically 6ms per track move and two rotation times (.4S at 300rpm). Same issue for MSdos, though that was FAT and there was a secondary fat. Turns out that 95% of the directory kills were either power up or down, was due to disk in place and door closed. The rest were if the system was flaky and would crash during write or randomly. FYI the directory was the first accessible blocks on the disk, and literally that meant after the system tracks. It was a trivial programming task to read the first data area track (usually the directory was less than 4 blocks) to read those and store them in a reserved file marked RO at the very end of the disk or elsewhere as a recovery tool. Though in most cases the failure was limited to one sector and may not have been a directory sector in use. The directory usually spanned more than one physical sector, storage for that was 32 file names per 1k so even for 512byte sectors only 16 file names were at risk. One had to know the file structure and on disk file structures (skew and sector size) to reconstruct. There were also utilities that would assist in this. Things like smart IDE and SCSI disks and later CF, MMC and SD made all this a non issue as they were smart enough in themselves to power down and avoiding incidental and unintended writes. It was mostly a problem unique to early MFM/RLL and Floppy drives and especially bad for the likes of TRS80 where the drive and system often had their own and independent power supplies as the write line was ACTIVE-LOW so if the CPU/floppy box lost power first it wrote a lot of zeros on the current track of all the drives. Allison > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 17:43:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:43:33 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5037A125.17105.19BB537@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 14:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > There either needs to be a ROM, or key in enough code to load from > disk. Do you consider the "system track[s]" that are NOT represented > in the DIRectory to be "FILE[s]"? It didn't need to be much. I believe that Don Tarbell's disk controller uses a 32-byte bipolar PROM to do get the first 128-byte sector read from disk. That one-sector bootstrap loaded the BIOS, then the BIOS loaded the DOS and CCP. My CCP loaded a driver for my Diablo Hitype OEM model driven from a PT 3P+S board. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 17:42:36 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:42:36 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5038035C.7020502@verizon.net> On 08/24/2012 06:37 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 5:55 PM, allison wrote: >> I was one of the very early adopters. I got the January 1975 PE... > Great story, Allison! Thanks for taking the time to share it! Hope it explains why while being a very active CP/M user still and I have many micros I do tend to say MITS, Bill Gates and then spit. ;) Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 17:46:08 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:46:08 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120824144851.R25135@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120824144851.R25135@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50380430.5030908@verizon.net> On 08/24/2012 05:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Or the Epson Geneve PX-8! A dozen of them will fit in a Kaypro case. > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> Intersting little machine. I never much liked the fact that the directory >> of the microcassette was cahced in RAM and if you forgot to unmount the >> tape before ejecting it yyou could end up losing data on that tape _and >> on the next oen you loaded_. > Seems familiar with some other systems. > CP/M needed ^C when changing disks. So did MS-DOS! (sometimes) > I never could find ANYWHERE in any Microsoft manuals any mention of > pressing ^C when changing disks. > Yes, it did sometimes use the cached DIRectory instead of the newly > inserted disk! > > It was needed for MSdos for two reasons to refresh the in ram copy of the FAT and because MSDOS ALSO supported FCB (CP/M style) access. Yes there was a lot that Peter Norton documented for MSdos that wasn't in the manuals. Then again once the system configuration manuals disappeared it was very uncommon to see MSdos off the PC platform but at one time it was not unusual to see it on 8088/8086 equipped S100 machines. Allison > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 17:53:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:53:17 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503805DD.7050206@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2012 05:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > In CP/M, isn't the BIOS just a file on disk anyway? It (usually) resides on disk, but it is not a file. It is combined with the BDOS and CCP during system generation to form the CP/M image which is written to the system track(s). -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 17:53:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:53:50 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120824144851.R25135@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120824144851.R25135@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503805FE.5050005@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2012 05:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Intersting little machine. I never much liked the fact that the directory >> of the microcassette was cahced in RAM and if you forgot to unmount the >> tape before ejecting it yyou could end up losing data on that tape _and >> on the next oen you loaded_. > > Seems familiar with some other systems. > CP/M needed ^C when changing disks. So did MS-DOS! (sometimes) > I never could find ANYWHERE in any Microsoft manuals any mention of > pressing ^C when changing disks. > Yes, it did sometimes use the cached DIRectory instead of the newly > inserted disk! Isn't the volume serial number supposed to take care of that problem? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 18:08:15 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:08:15 -0700 Subject: HP 21-MX Mini on ebay In-Reply-To: <5037A125.17105.19BB537@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net> <5037A125.17105.19BB537@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5038095F.2080004@gmail.com> Seems like a deal for $200. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEWLETT-PACKARD-2108A-21MX-COMPUTER-SERIES-VINTAGE-AS-IS-/261087692515 From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 24 18:09:45 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:09:45 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503809B9.9070006@verizon.net> On 08/24/2012 05:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> In CP/M, isn't the BIOS just a file on disk anyway? > There either needs to be a ROM, or key in enough code to load from disk. > Do you consider the "system track[s]" that are NOT represented in the > DIRectory to be "FILE[s]"? > > > There was always a boot rom somewhere that loaded the loader. However it was possible to put CP/M in rom and use that with disks that had no system track (and usually more space on disk). The Epson PX8 did that, its in rom and copied to ram. That saved having system on a disk and for the Ramdisk saved having to preserve system tracks. IT's down side is it's harder to add stuff to the BIOS (they did leave hooks). I did it in different way where the minimal bios and bdos was configured to load in mid ram and added to a block of code that replaced the CCP loaded from from rom to ram. That then loaded to high ram CPMBIO.SYS and CPMBDOS.SYS and CPMCCP.SYS from disk files in the directory area. This allowed me to replace them easily without resorting to a monolithic system track loader and it made adding new BIOS features or experimenting with things like P2dos, ZCCP, and ZCPR easily. It also meant that a very crude BIOS that only knows about the disk system was needed to boot a flexible and configurable system and it only needed 8K of rom of which the CPM-boot was 6K and 2k for a system debug monitor. That was only one way to do that. For my AmproLB+ I let it load the system in the very conventional way and use a program called sysload that would load any file into the CCP, BDOS, BIOS memory areas as desired and could be a .BAT file with the load command. I used that during the bios rework for the SCSI disk and then to include ZCPR features without the worry of system tracks that might not boot. There is as I've said on COM.OS.CPM and elsewhere, there are very few limits on how one could boot and configure a CP/M system, other that when done the system has the first 256bytes as per the book and the TPA starts at 100H to look and act like a normal CP/M system. Allison From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Aug 24 18:34:59 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 21-MX Mini on ebay In-Reply-To: <5038095F.2080004@gmail.com> References: , , <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net> <5037A125.17105.19BB537@cclist.sydex.com> <5038095F.2080004@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: > Seems like a deal for $200. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEWLETT-PACKARD-2108A-21MX-COMPUTER-SERIES-VINTAGE-AS-IS-/261087692515 Only if there are actually boards in it... Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 18:35:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:35:52 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503802A9.1040803@verizon.net> References: , <503791AE.21690.15F48D5@cclist.sydex.com>, <503802A9.1040803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5037AD68.17707.1CB9ADF@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 18:39, allison wrote: > Simple, Most of the systems ran without interrupts and did zero > timekeeping so > while the ap was running it was in control, when the ap returned > control CPM was not keeping time either. In essence there was no > "idle time" as that concept is only known to multitasking or forground > background systems that used blocked IO and task lists to manage what > the CPU was doing( rather than spinning in loops). Easy, move the heads when a close is issued. Yes, I know that many programs didn't bother with open or close calls, as CP/M cared only that the FCB described something, whatever it was. Move the heads when the system is sitting at a command prompt. Moving one cylinder is trivial in terms of timing compared to the average rotational latency of a disk. Not even MP/'M or CP/M 3.0 that actually had timekeeping would do this. MS-DOS had timekeeping and didn't do that. > When disk got larger Deblocking was common and that results in caching > of at least one physical sector but since ram was considered a scarce > commodity a whole track cache was rarely done. The later systems with > banked ram and running interrupts would include time outs and other > features sorely needed and often omitted in early BIOSes. What does a whole track cache have to do with this? > Turns out that 95% of the directory kills were either power up or > down, was due to disk in place and door closed. The rest were if the > system was flaky and would crash during write or randomly. Yes, so why not position over a junk track when the system isn't actively doing disk access? Apple OS writes a duplicate directory at the end of the disk, but it's usually far out of sync with the main one. > FYI the directory was the first accessible blocks on the disk, and > literally that meant after the system tracks. Well yes and no--I can show you some CP/M layouts where that's not true--the National Semi BLC 86/12 system puts the directory on track 39 with data blocks allocated alternately first on cylinders below the directory, going toward cylinder 0 and the system boot tracks, then cylinders after the directory, going toward cylinder 79. There are other similar CP/M implementations. And not all CP/M implementations start the directory on a track boundary (the Allen- Bradley Advisor+ and the BU-60 aircraft test set, for example--or the Coleco Adam). The point is that losing system boot tracks isn't a big deal--files can still be read from the disk--and with a utility, the boot tracks can be restored. Killing both file name and allocation information is a catastrophe. > ...so if the CPU/floppy box lost power first it wrote a lot of zeros > on the current track of all the drives. Not zeroes, but a genuine DC erase--if the CPU lost power before the disk unit, WRITE GATE would be pulled low and the entire track wiped with a DC level. I'm looking at a Z37-written floppy where that's happened. I can be somewhat successful in recovering file data with some guessing, but there's no way to recover file names. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 18:48:30 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:48:30 -0700 Subject: HP 21-MX Mini on ebay In-Reply-To: References: , , <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net> <5037A125.17105.19BB537@cclist.sydex.com> <5038095F.2080004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503812CE.40808@gmail.com> On 8/24/2012 4:34 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: > >> Seems like a deal for $200. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEWLETT-PACKARD-2108A-21MX-COMPUTER-SERIES-VINTAGE-AS-IS-/261087692515 >> > > Only if there are actually boards in it... > If you collected them I'd say the case and front panel was probably worth that. It is gone now anyway. Hopefully someone here grabbed it. I would have bought it myself but, I'm too poor. No new old computers for me for now. Probably a good thing. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 24 18:51:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503802A9.1040803@verizon.net> References: from "Liam Proven" at Aug 23, 12 11:15:18 pm, <503791AE.21690.15F48D5@cclist.sydex.com> <503802A9.1040803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120824163757.B27629@shell.lmi.net> > On 08/24/2012 05:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > While a glitch can wipe out a whole track, at least MS-DOS may allow > > one to recover the files based on the FAT contents (assuming that it > > doesn't share the same track as the directory), losing the directory Ah! But on the early disks, until the FAT got REALLY big and bloated, the FAT and the firsst sectors of the DIRectory (the parts most heavily used), were on the same track. It's LOTS more fun salvaging data when the FATs AND the first sectors of the directory went at the same time. On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, allison wrote: > Same issue for MSdos, though that was FAT and there was a secondary fat. But, the secondary copy of the FAT was always contiguous to the primary copy, therefore, WHEN it trashed the FAT, it could do in the secondary copy in the same write, and not have to waste any additional time. I don't recall ever encountering any situations where MS-DOS would actually replace the primary copy with the secondary one in cases of damage. PS: Thanks, Allsion for the detailed history. Frankly, I don't think that your adventures were in any way a waste! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Fri Aug 24 19:01:43 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:01:43 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? Message-ID: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM> [snip] > >> I'd love to find one of those add-on boards that would allow IDE or > >> CF to be used - the HD in my 10 isn't going to last forever. :( > > > > GIDE works in the Kaypros I think. > > > Is anyone selling them? > [snip] Hi The GIDE is a neat circuit but finding one is difficult. They are long out of production and are hard to replicate since it uses GALs. At least the equations for the GALs are known. It also uses obscure obsolete RTC chip that is hard to find. How about instead of just replicating the GIDE convert the XT-IDE V2 circuitry to use a Z80 socket rather than an 8 bit ISA slot. The XT-IDE V2 provides a 16 bit IDE interface, an optional boot ROM, and an optional UART for remote booting capability. All of those would be useful things on Kaypro or any other Z80 computer. It would use the same "shim socket" approach as the GIDE and would be easy for anyone to use and/or replicate. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 24 19:09:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503805FE.5050005@neurotica.com> References: <20120824144851.R25135@shell.lmi.net> <503805FE.5050005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120824170006.A27629@shell.lmi.net> > > Seems familiar with some other systems. > > CP/M needed ^C when changing disks. So did MS-DOS! (sometimes) > > I never could find ANYWHERE in any Microsoft manuals any mention of > > pressing ^C when changing disks. > > Yes, it did sometimes use the cached DIRectory instead of the newly > > inserted disk! On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > Isn't the volume serial number supposed to take care of that problem? "supposed to". so was the diskchange signal. But, the volume serial number was not prexent on early disks - when did it show up? 3.xx? The volume serial number could be the same on two disks, if they had originally been created (before being changed) as duplicates made with earlier tools, AND, it could still do it if the diskchange line was not properly implemented (not at all uncommon with that line being used sometimes for other purposes (ready?). Without a diskchange signal, the system would have no reason to go look at the serial number ! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 19:48:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:48:21 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5037AD68.17707.1CB9ADF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <503791AE.21690.15F48D5@cclist.sydex.com>, <503802A9.1040803@verizon.net> <5037AD68.17707.1CB9ADF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <503820D5.8030905@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2012 07:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Simple, Most of the systems ran without interrupts and did zero >> timekeeping so >> while the ap was running it was in control, when the ap returned >> control CPM was not keeping time either. In essence there was no >> "idle time" as that concept is only known to multitasking or forground >> background systems that used blocked IO and task lists to manage what >> the CPU was doing( rather than spinning in loops). > > Easy, move the heads when a close is issued. Yes, I know that many > programs didn't bother with open or close calls, as CP/M cared only > that the FCB described something, whatever it was. But even more problematic than that, "F_CLOSE" is a BDOS call, not a BIOS call, and the BIOS doesn't know when a file is being closed. (IIRC) So one wouldn't be able to do this in the BIOS, it would require a modification to the BDOS. > Move the heads > when the system is sitting at a command prompt. Moving one cylinder > is trivial in terms of timing compared to the average rotational > latency of a disk. One could do this with an idle timer in the BIOS keyed on console I/O. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From stekster at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 20:04:56 2012 From: stekster at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 21:04:56 -0400 Subject: Wabash Floppies Message-ID: I haven't yet tried it but at tapeheads.net you can learn about the use of a 50-50 mixture of Nu-Finish car polish and naptha as a treatment for flaking/shedding reel-to-reel tape. (Honest) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 20:15:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:15:09 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503820D5.8030905@neurotica.com> References: , <5037AD68.17707.1CB9ADF@cclist.sydex.com>, <503820D5.8030905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5037C4AD.29503.2267CCE@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 20:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > But even more problematic than that, "F_CLOSE" is a BDOS call, not a > BIOS call, and the BIOS doesn't know when a file is being closed. > (IIRC) > So one wouldn't be able to do this in the BIOS, it would require a > modification to the BDOS. ...and that's just my point. I suppose that the BIOS could "hook" the BDOS interface, since it (the BIOS) is responsible for plugging location 5 with the BDOS entry point. If it weren't for some programs using the address of the jump in location 5 for the base of the BDOS, it might even work. But heck, the BDOS already communicates to the BIOS in read/write sector calls what *kind* of read or write is happening (used by block/deblock BIOS code). There's no reason that the BDOS couldn't call the BIOS to inform it that it should secure the drive heads. > One could do this with an idle timer in the BIOS keyed on console > I/O. Similarly, the BDOS could inform the BIOS of any open files; i.e., when it's safe to change disks. I have a BIOS that can detect disk changes (it polls the write-protect sensor on 5.25" drives), but I can't do anything with the information. On DX85M, we flashed a message on the screen and waited for the user to replace the disk if there were files open for write/modify access. That awful "BDOS ERR: R/O" really threw users for a loop. While CP/M 1.4 was adequate for simple MDS systems, I didn't see that much progress in accommodating newer hardware and bullet-proofing in later versions. I thought it was remarkable that DRI never bothered to move the location of the second default FCB after the introduction of the Z80. It made life interesting if your system used the Z80 TRAP interrupt for anything. My list is very long... --Chuck P.S. Were there any x80 systems that attempted to implement paged virtual memory? From stekster at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 20:18:36 2012 From: stekster at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 21:18:36 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II Message-ID: I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been more discussion about S-100 machines. In particular I would point out the Morrow Decision 1. It's DJ-DMA floppy controller could handle 8" SSSD thru DSDD, and both soft-sectored and hard-sectored (NorthStar) 5.25" formats and a separate hard drive controller was also available of course. Later variations even had a switching power supply. Not strictly a CP/M machine (though probably 90+% used CP/M or variation thereof) and CP/M came standard with the machine. Morrow even provided a UNIX-like OS, the name of which escapes me at the moment (Micronix maybe?). With the addition of an 8086 S-100 board it would certainly run a plain vanilla CP/M-86 system. Other S-100 systems like CompuPro and Cromemco and even NorthStar were all versatile and well-built CP/M machines which could aspire to be called 'the best CP/M machine ever.' In general I would even proclaim the category of S-100 micros as the holder of that title. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 24 20:18:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:18:34 -0700 Subject: Dysan PAT-2+ manual Message-ID: <503827EA.2000802@bitsavers.org> Anyone have one? I have the front half of one, which is up on bitsavers now. Termites got the back of it. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Fri Aug 24 20:28:44 2012 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 10:58:44 +0930 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <50382A4C.8070905@kaput.homeunix.org> On 25/08/2012 9:31 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > [snip] >>>> I'd love to find one of those add-on boards that would allow IDE or >>>> CF to be used - the HD in my 10 isn't going to last forever. :( >>> >>> GIDE works in the Kaypros I think. >>> >> Is anyone selling them? >> > [snip] > > Hi > The GIDE is a neat circuit but finding one is difficult. They are long out > of production and are hard to replicate since it uses GALs. At least the > equations for the GALs are known. It also uses obscure obsolete RTC chip > that is hard to find. > If it helps, I made an ATA interface for my Z80 single board computer. It uses five IC's (two 74374's, one 74245, one 74367, one 7432). It can't support DMA as the high and low bytes of the 16-bit bus are at different addresses, but it's easy to make. The circuit diagram is here: http://kaput.homeunix.org/Z80SBC/IDE_Interface.pdf Accessing the 8-bit ports is transparent. They are read/written to as I/O addresses (or memory if you want). To read the 16-bit data port, read the low byte out from BASE+0 (BASE is 0x60 on the diagram) then the high byte from the latch (specified as 0xE0 on the diagram). I have omitted the address decoder in the diagram. To write, load a 16-bit word from memory, write the high byte to 0xE0 first, then the low byte to 0x60. Cheers, Alexis K. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 20:41:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:41:37 -0700 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <50382A4C.8070905@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <50382A4C.8070905@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Aug 2012 at 10:58, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > If it helps, I made an ATA interface for my Z80 single board computer. > It uses five IC's (two 74374's, one 74245, one 74367, one 7432). It > can't support DMA as the high and low bytes of the 16-bit bus are at > different addresses, but it's easy to make. Just about any CF card can be set to operate in 8 bit mode. Same goes for Microdrives. So the circuitry can be very simple indeed if all you are going to use are the CF cards. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 24 20:44:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:44:48 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50382E10.7050403@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/12 6:18 PM, Robert Stek wrote: > Not strictly a CP/M machine (though probably 90+% used CP/M or variation > thereof) and CP/M came standard with the machine. Morrow even provided a > UNIX-like OS, the name of which escapes me at the moment (Micronix maybe?). > Correct, Micronix It wasn't Unix-like, it WAS Unix 6th Edition, built using Whitesmiths C. I have all the bits to put a system togther. The tricky thing is finding the right revisions of Morrow hard disk and CPU boards to make it work. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 24 20:50:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:50:54 -0700 Subject: Morrow Decision 1 (was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50382F7E.6060607@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/12 6:18 PM, Robert Stek wrote: > In particular I would point out the Morrow Decision 1. It's > DJ-DMA floppy controller could handle 8" SSSD thru DSDD, and both > soft-sectored and hard-sectored (NorthStar) 5.25" formats and a separate > hard drive controller was also available of course. Later variations even > had a switching power supply. > The Morrow Disk controllers are quite clever designs. I've tried to collect as much information on them as I could find in the stuff that was donated to CHM by his sons, and from the stuff Dave had and put it up on bitsavers. One of the reasons the hard disk Microdecision was so inexpensive at the time was because of the low cost of the combination hard and floppy disk controller. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 24 20:55:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:55:48 -0700 Subject: Morrow Decision 1 (Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II) In-Reply-To: <50382E10.7050403@bitsavers.org> References: <50382E10.7050403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503830A4.5040809@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/12 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/24/12 6:18 PM, Robert Stek wrote: > >> Not strictly a CP/M machine (though probably 90+% used CP/M or variation >> thereof) and CP/M came standard with the machine. Morrow even provided a >> UNIX-like OS, the name of which escapes me at the moment (Micronix maybe?). >> > Correct, Micronix > It wasn't Unix-like, it WAS Unix 6th Edition, built using Whitesmiths C. > I have all the bits to put a system togther. The tricky thing is finding the > right revisions of Morrow hard disk and CPU boards to make it work. > Eventually, they did ship a Unisoft 68000 Unix system (the Tricep) by just replacing the Z80 board with a 68000/68451 board made by Dual Systems. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/tricep From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 20:56:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:56:29 -0700 Subject: Wabash Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5037CE5D.26411.24C5680@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 21:04, Robert Stek wrote: > I haven't yet tried it but at tapeheads.net you can learn about the > use of a 50-50 mixture of Nu-Finish car polish and naptha as a > treatment for flaking/shedding reel-to-reel tape. (Honest) Just came back from reading pages of the Nu-Finish threads. Looks promising--I'll have to get some and try it out to see if it makes a difference. Thanks for the pointer! Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 21:06:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:06:36 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <50382A4C.8070905@kaput.homeunix.org> <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2012 09:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If it helps, I made an ATA interface for my Z80 single board computer. >> It uses five IC's (two 74374's, one 74245, one 74367, one 7432). It >> can't support DMA as the high and low bytes of the 16-bit bus are at >> different addresses, but it's easy to make. > > Just about any CF card can be set to operate in 8 bit mode. Same > goes for Microdrives. So the circuitry can be very simple indeed if > all you are going to use are the CF cards. 8-bit mode is required by the CF standard. It's not required for IDE, and most IDE devices don't implement it. I've seen a few very old ones that do, but that's about it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 21:08:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:08:09 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50383389.7090907@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2012 09:18 PM, Robert Stek wrote: > I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been more discussion about S-100 > machines. In particular I would point out the Morrow Decision 1. It's > DJ-DMA floppy controller could handle 8" SSSD thru DSDD, and both > soft-sectored and hard-sectored (NorthStar) 5.25" formats and a separate > hard drive controller was also available of course. Later variations even > had a switching power supply. > > Not strictly a CP/M machine (though probably 90+% used CP/M or variation > thereof) and CP/M came standard with the machine. Morrow even provided a > UNIX-like OS, the name of which escapes me at the moment (Micronix maybe?). > > With the addition of an 8086 S-100 board it would certainly run a plain > vanilla CP/M-86 system. > > Other S-100 systems like CompuPro and Cromemco and even NorthStar were all > versatile and well-built CP/M machines which could aspire to be called 'the > best CP/M machine ever.' In general I would even proclaim the category of > S-100 micros as the holder of that title. +1 for S-100 machines. I sat in front of an IMSAI-8080 (containing no IMSAI boards other than the front panel, PS, and motherboard) for many years, and I had a second system that ran a BBS for a while. Great systems. I'm glad to still have most of that stuff. Now I have a Dynabyte system but am still looking for the matching drives. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Fri Aug 24 21:54:30 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:54:30 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <50382A4C.8070905@kaput.homeunix.org> <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com> <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001c01cd826c$f36c91f0$da45b5d0$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GIDE replacement? > > On 08/24/2012 09:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> If it helps, I made an ATA interface for my Z80 single board computer. > >> It uses five IC's (two 74374's, one 74245, one 74367, one 7432). It > >> can't support DMA as the high and low bytes of the 16-bit bus are at > >> different addresses, but it's easy to make. > > > > Just about any CF card can be set to operate in 8 bit mode. Same goes > > for Microdrives. So the circuitry can be very simple indeed if all > > you are going to use are the CF cards. > > 8-bit mode is required by the CF standard. It's not required for IDE, and > most IDE devices don't implement it. I've seen a few very old ones that do, > but that's about it. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Hi Dave! Thanks! Yes, that's why I would keep the new board 16 bit so that it is compatible with a broad range of IDE devices including CF *and* parallel IDE drives. Also the extra features of the XT-IDE V2 would be useful like the option UART for remote booting from a serial port server. Apparently the XT-IDE V2 remote boot feature works pretty well and can be used to generate boot disks on a machine that has none. The Apple ][ can boot from a serial port as well so this is a neat feature to have. In addition, the optional ROM is helpful for booting systems or adding specific capability. I'd like to keep the design as general as possible just like the GIDE since then it can be used on a variety of systems. I am thinking of calling it the ZIDE to distinguish it from the GIDE since there are some important differences. I am still thinking this over and may do this project. However there are a lot of other important projects underway at N8VEM like the S-100 80386 CPU board, S-100 VGA, and the MC68040 SBC that are taking precedence right now. I am thinking though that the ZIDE would be a fairly small project though. It is pretty simple and just a conversion of the already well proven XT-IDE V2 design. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 22:00:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:00:43 -0700 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com>, <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 22:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > 8-bit mode is required by the CF standard. It's not required for > IDE, and most IDE devices don't implement it. I've seen a few very old > ones that do, but that's about it. I thought that's what I said. :) Using 8-bit mode eliminates the need to deal with 16-bit transfers and greatly simplifies interface circuitry. Seriously, given that CF cards are of a size today to completely overwhelm any CP/M system. Why bother with rotating mass storage (except for microdrives, I guess)? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 24 22:29:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:29:24 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com>, <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50384694.4060603@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2012 11:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> 8-bit mode is required by the CF standard. It's not required for >> IDE, and most IDE devices don't implement it. I've seen a few very old >> ones that do, but that's about it. > > I thought that's what I said. :) You said "just about any CF card can be set to operate in 8-bit mode". > Using 8-bit mode eliminates the need to deal with 16-bit transfers > and greatly simplifies interface circuitry. > > Seriously, given that CF cards are of a size today to completely > overwhelm any CP/M system. Why bother with rotating mass storage > (except for microdrives, I guess)? Because it's COOL. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 24 23:34:29 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 21:34:29 -0700 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <503855D5.80502@brouhaha.com> Charles Dickman wrote: > With the PROM images and after customizing Eric Smith's 2900 > disassembler (Thanks Eric), I was able to generate a microcode > listing. So far it is a one to one match with the Technical Manual > flow chart. Cool! Thanks for doing that! I was going to do it, but you beat me to it. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 24 23:33:46 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 21:33:46 -0700 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <50384694.4060603@neurotica.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <50384694.4060603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 23:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > Because it's COOL. No, a Bryant 4000 series disk drive is cool. An IBM 1311 drive is cool. A Shugart SA-4000 drive is cool--sort of.. IDE drives are just IDE drives. They're not physically large enough to be cool. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 23:42:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:42:50 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM> <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com> <50384694.4060603@neurotica.com> <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Aug 2012 at 23:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Because it's COOL. > > No, a Bryant 4000 series disk drive is cool. An IBM 1311 drive is > cool. A Shugart SA-4000 drive is cool--sort of.. > > IDE drives are just IDE drives. They're not physically large enough > to be cool. I was thinking this was more about drives on the small side - CF Type III and Kittyhawks - sub-2.5" rotating memory with standard interfaces - those are still cool, aren't they? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 25 00:07:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:07:14 -0700 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <5037FB12.17685.2FAF85F@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Aug 2012 at 0:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was thinking this was more about drives on the small side - CF Type > III and Kittyhawks - sub-2.5" rotating memory with standard interfaces > - those are still cool, aren't they? I believe they're all 8-bit capable (not certain about the Kittyhawk).. I keep hearing that microdrives aren't meant to be run on a continuous basis, but I've had a Seagate 5GB ST1 drive running 24/7 here since....it says February, 2008 without a tingle. So maybe they're good for continuous use... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 25 00:32:11 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:32:11 -0700 Subject: HP 21-MX Mini on ebay In-Reply-To: <503812CE.40808@gmail.com> References: , , , , <20120824141845.W24919@shell.lmi.net>, <5037A125.17105.19BB537@cclist.sydex.com> <5038095F.2080004@gmail.com>, , <503812CE.40808@gmail.com> Message-ID: As for unusual machines, there is an Olivetti M20 on ebay as well. This was the only PC that I know of that use the Z8000 Zilog chips. It is missing the monitor that is custom for that computer. I've been told the the monitor used on the M24 ( also sold in the US by AT&T ) can be wired to work. I've not confirmed this though so don't shoot me is it can't be made to work. Dwight > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:48:30 -0700 > From: mc68010 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: HP 21-MX Mini on ebay > > > On 8/24/2012 4:34 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: > > > >> Seems like a deal for $200. > >> > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEWLETT-PACKARD-2108A-21MX-COMPUTER-SERIES-VINTAGE-AS-IS-/261087692515 > >> > > > > Only if there are actually boards in it... > > > > If you collected them I'd say the case and front panel was probably > worth that. It is gone now anyway. Hopefully someone here grabbed it. I > would have bought it myself but, I'm too poor. No new old computers for > me for now. Probably a good thing. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 25 00:33:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 01:33:41 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <50384694.4060603@neurotica.com> <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <503863B5.80608@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2012 12:33 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Aug 2012 at 23:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Because it's COOL. > > No, a Bryant 4000 series disk drive is cool. An IBM 1311 drive is > cool. A Shugart SA-4000 drive is cool--sort of.. > > IDE drives are just IDE drives. They're not physically large enough > to be cool. I like the way you think. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 25 00:35:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 01:35:09 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM> <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com> <50384694.4060603@neurotica.com> <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5038640D.3030900@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2012 12:42 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was thinking this was more about drives on the small side - CF Type > III and Kittyhawks - sub-2.5" rotating memory with standard interfaces > - those are still cool, aren't they? 1.3"! I have a bunch of those, probably a dozen 20MB and precisely ONE of the rare 40MB versions. Apparently those weren't too reliable, but the 20MB ones were fine. They're really neat drives. I use one on my SBC6120. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Aug 25 00:43:59 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morrow Decision 1 (Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II) In-Reply-To: <503830A4.5040809@bitsavers.org> References: <50382E10.7050403@bitsavers.org> <503830A4.5040809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/24/12 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 8/24/12 6:18 PM, Robert Stek wrote: >> >>> Not strictly a CP/M machine (though probably 90+% used CP/M or variation >>> thereof) and CP/M came standard with the machine. Morrow even provided a >>> UNIX-like OS, the name of which escapes me at the moment (Micronix >>> maybe?). >>> >> Correct, Micronix >> It wasn't Unix-like, it WAS Unix 6th Edition, built using Whitesmiths C. >> I have all the bits to put a system togther. The tricky thing is finding >> the >> right revisions of Morrow hard disk and CPU boards to make it work. > > Eventually, they did ship a Unisoft 68000 Unix system (the Tricep) > by just replacing the Z80 board with a 68000/68451 board made by Dual > Systems. > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/tricep Have you been able to get anything interesting out of that Tricep machine I sold you? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 01:05:01 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 02:05:01 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <5038640D.3030900@neurotica.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM> <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com> <50384694.4060603@neurotica.com> <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com> <5038640D.3030900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 1:35 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/25/2012 12:42 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I was thinking this was more about drives on the small side - CF Type >> III and Kittyhawks - sub-2.5" rotating memory with standard interfaces >> - those are still cool, aren't they? > > 1.3"! I have a bunch of those, probably a dozen 20MB and precisely > ONE of the rare 40MB versions. Apparently those weren't too reliable, > but the 20MB ones were fine. Interesting to hear that. I have two 20MB drives and didn't get any 40MB drives long ago when I had the chance. Apparently, I chose wisely (plus 2x 20MB cost me less than 1x40MB, the largest factor in my decision). > They're really neat drives. I use one on my SBC6120. Yep. I have one on my IDE64. Much fun. -ethan From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 24 13:44:07 2012 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:44:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: from "cctech-request@classiccmp.org" at Aug 24, 2012 12:00:00 pm GMT Message-ID: Liam Proven wrote: > Hey, John, welcome! Have you just joined or been here lurking all along? Just joined. > In CP/M, isn't the BIOS just a file on disk anyway? It is, but adding functionality to it without the loadable driver facility would be nowhere near as straightforward. You'd need to work out how to allocate memory to your additional feature, how to hook it into the various BIOS data structures, and then how to get the .EMS self-unpacker to relocate it to the right place. And since it would be infringement of copyright to distribute the patched file, you'd have to distribute a program that did that patching. Chuck Guzis wrote: > Suppose I wanted to use 1.44M 3.5" floppies. The hardware (with a > bit of tweaking) is capable of it. No way to get to the boot > software, however. Suppose I wanted to boot from a home-built CF > card... In theory you could replace the boot ROM (desolder the 8041, read its contents, and burn an 8741 with the new boot image. Or even an 8742, if you wanted more than 256 bytes of boot program). In the 9512 it would be even easier, because the corresponding microcontroller used an external ROM. It was also possible for peripherals plugged into the expansion port to provide their own boot ROMs; Cirtech's external hard drives did so, for example, and they advertised a similar device that booted from flash. -- John Elliott From christopher1400 at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 23:50:39 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 21:50:39 -0700 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM> <5037DD6B.21401.28725EC@cclist.sydex.com> <50384694.4060603@neurotica.com> <5037F33A.22195.2DC53B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Kittyhawk is an interesting drive to me, it's small but reliable. I myself wouldn't expect something that small and being a new idea at the time (being that small) that they would last and still work 20 years later today. I've never worked with a Microdrive, so I can't comment on their reliability but they must be able to take some beating since I've seen them used in cameras (and I will say my camera gets banged around a lot being on the neck strap, being ran into, etc). -- C:\win Bad Command Or File Name C:\ From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 03:41:43 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 10:41:43 +0200 Subject: DG Nova 3 front panel levers Message-ID: Hello. I have a Data General Nova 3 computer, unfortunately the front panel is missing all of the yellow plastic levers. Anybody has some spare to sell at reasonable price? In the case I cannot find the original levers, I could try to realize a mold to reproduce it using model-casting resins. I would need however some kind of mechanical drawings, or also some good picture made together with a ruler, so dimensions can be somehow measured on the picture itself. An idea could be to use a scanner as imaging device, as it will not deform the image, and to scan the lever, specially on the side. Anybody can help? Thanks in advance Andrea From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Aug 25 04:22:35 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 05:22:35 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> At 11:14 AM 8/24/2012, Allison wrote: >David Gesswein wrote: >>On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:21:57PM -0400, Allison wrote: >> >>>Unlike many when CP/M came about in the mid 70s I'd experience >>>with OS/8 and TOPS-10 and wished that CP/M was more. >>> >>> >>I haven't used CP/M. What was the significant items that were better >>about OS/8 than CP/M? I had thought they were similar in capability >>(and even shared some command names). >> >The biggest difference was OS/8 was multi-task/multi-user. OS/8 on the DEC PDP-8 was most definitely single-task, single-user. There were other PDP-8 operating systems such as TSS-8 (EDUsystem-50) which were multi-task/multi-user, as well as time-sharing systems that were multitasking. You may be thinking about the fact that OS/8 could be run as a background job as part of RTS-8. >It also existed and was more powerful than CP/M years earlier on >a CPU (PDP-8) that was more primitive. I don't know how anyone could call OS/8 more powerful than CP/M. OS/8 was a very, very simple system. OS/8 does just a few things: it allows you to read/write files, has a command decoder, and a keyboard monitor (command line). It has no services for critical things like console terminal input/output, has a rudimentary file system, and basically doesn't do much. Now, if you replace the "OS/8" above with "RT-11" I'd be in agreement. -Rick From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Aug 25 07:59:09 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 08:59:09 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <50382A4C.8070905@kaput.homeunix.org> <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com> <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <009601cd82c1$6b188340$414989c0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi I've written up a preliminary schematic for the ZIDE circuit. It is similar to the XT-IDE V2 in most ways but with a few differences. The ROM has changed from a 8KB-32KB EPROM/EEPROM to a 2KB EPROM/EEPROM. This is because the address space of a Z80 is much smaller than the 8088 and generally you don't need large ROMs. 2KB of optional read/write EEPROM or read only EPROM should be sufficient. The ISA bus signals are slightly different than the Z80 so I did a little conversion of signals. For instance, the ISA RESET and IRQ signals are all active-high where on the Z80 they are active low. Also the ISA MEMR*/MEMW*/IOW*/IOR* have to be converted to Z80 MREQ*/IORQ*/RD*/WR* The interrupts on Z80 are simpler too. However since the Z80 will be in shim socket I am thinking the RESET* and INT* signals will have to come from open collector gates to accommodate whatever the host machine is already doing on those signals. If anyone wants to take a look at the schematic please contact me offline. However, I am keeping the 16 bit IDE interface regardless. It makes no sense to me to restrict compatibility of the ZIDE to small percentage of IDE/CF devices and effectively lock out so many still useful IDE drives. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Aug 25 08:01:49 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 06:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 21-MX Mini on ebay In-Reply-To: from dwight elvey at "Aug 24, 12 10:32:11 pm" Message-ID: <201208251301.q7PD1nBP5636120@floodgap.com> > As for unusual machines, there is an Olivetti M20 on ebay as well. > This was the only PC that I know of that use the Z8000 Zilog chips. The Commodore 900 ("Z-Machine") used the Z8K, and there are a couple others. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Conscience makes egotists of us all. -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------ From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Aug 25 08:17:16 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:17:16 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> On 08/25/2012 05:22 AM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 11:14 AM 8/24/2012, Allison wrote: >> David Gesswein wrote: >>> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:21:57PM -0400, Allison wrote: >>> >>>> Unlike many when CP/M came about in the mid 70s I'd experience >>>> with OS/8 and TOPS-10 and wished that CP/M was more. >>>> >>>> >>> I haven't used CP/M. What was the significant items that were better >>> about OS/8 than CP/M? I had thought they were similar in capability >>> (and even shared some command names). >>> >> The biggest difference was OS/8 was multi-task/multi-user. > > OS/8 on the DEC PDP-8 was most definitely single-task, single-user. > There were other PDP-8 operating systems such as TSS-8 (EDUsystem-50) > which were multi-task/multi-user, as well as time-sharing systems that > were multitasking. > > You may be thinking about the fact that OS/8 could be run as a > background job as part of RTS-8. > Indeed it can and also under TSS-8. >> It also existed and was more powerful than CP/M years earlier on >> a CPU (PDP-8) that was more primitive. > > I don't know how anyone could call OS/8 more powerful than CP/M. OS/8 > was a very, very simple system. > So Is CP/M. > OS/8 does just a few things: it allows you to read/write files, has a > command decoder, and a keyboard monitor (command line). It has no > services for critical things like console terminal input/output, has a > rudimentary file system, and basically doesn't do much. > And the difference is? > Now, if you replace the "OS/8" above with "RT-11" I'd be in agreement. > RT11 I could consider that almost true. Save for the file system is actually more primitive as it cannot do scatter gather and CP/M does. A partially used RT11 disk with deleted files needs to be compacted to get back the large contiguous spaces same as NS* dos. But it does many other things very nicely. Allison > -Rick > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Aug 25 08:20:54 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:20:54 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: <503805DD.7050206@neurotica.com> References: <503805DD.7050206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5038D136.9070809@verizon.net> On 08/24/2012 06:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/24/2012 05:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> In CP/M, isn't the BIOS just a file on disk anyway? > It (usually) resides on disk, but it is not a file. It is combined > with the BDOS and CCP during system generation to form the CP/M image > which is written to the system track(s). That is usually true and usually done that way but there is no specific requirement to do that. Only that all the examples do that. The reason they did it that way was twofold big Eproms were scarce and expensive when they first became available in the early days and you need a OS to read a file system. Allison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 25 09:20:52 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 07:20:52 -0700 Subject: HP 21-MX Mini on ebay In-Reply-To: <201208251301.q7PD1nBP5636120@floodgap.com> References: from dwight elvey at "Aug 24, 12 10:32:11 pm",<201208251301.q7PD1nBP5636120@floodgap.com> Message-ID: The 900 doesn't count. It was never produce in quantity. There were some mini sized machines though. Dwight > From: spectre at floodgap.com > Subject: Re: HP 21-MX Mini on ebay > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 06:01:49 -0700 > > > As for unusual machines, there is an Olivetti M20 on ebay as well. > > This was the only PC that I know of that use the Z8000 Zilog chips. > > The Commodore 900 ("Z-Machine") used the Z8K, and there are a couple others. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Conscience makes egotists of us all. -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 09:29:07 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:29:07 -0500 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5038E133.20902@gmail.com> On 08/23/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I must admit I was never a fan of CP/M. I missed the CP/M boat by a couple of years - started out with home computers where it was all BASIC and assembler, then straight to a DOS machine. I have a feeling that CP/M would have driven me nuts if used 'in anger' though. Purely within a vintage context I like it though, it doesn't get in the way of the bare metal much (and I've always been more of a hardware than software person), but still provides some vaguely useful services on otherwise-complicated machines. > My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QC10. Interesting hardware > at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, etc. I have a QX-10 on the desk here beside me; it really is a lovely machine (despite the plastic case; somehow I always think that 'real' computers should have metal cases). And yes, those drives are great (although I had to clean/strip the eject mechanisms on mine; I suspect they're prone to sticking with age). I'm still looking for an Epson dot-matrix printer of some flavor to complete mine (and some add-on cards would be nice) Did you do anything to modify the airflow on yours? I think I read somewhere that they were prone to filling up with dust due to the lack of filter and fan direction. > Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein? It runs soemthing called > XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same). I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder how common "almost CP/M" variants were... > For versatility, I guess an S100 machine is desirable. Not that I was > ever really into that bus. I've been chasing one for a long time; I just have a thing for backplane-based systems (and the actual bus doesn't bother me). cheers Jules From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 10:24:24 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <009601cd82c1$6b188340$414989c0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <50382A4C.8070905@kaput.homeunix.org> <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com> <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> <009601cd82c1$6b188340$414989c0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Aug 2012, Andrew Lynch wrote: > I am keeping the 16 bit IDE interface regardless. It makes no > sense to me to restrict compatibility of the ZIDE to small percentage of > IDE/CF devices and effectively lock out so many still useful IDE drives. You could always take the approach used by at least one Tandy CoCo IDE adapter: Use only the lower 8-bits of every 16-bit operation to keep the interface simple. -- From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 25 10:26:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 08:26:59 -0700 Subject: Morrow Decision 1 (Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II) In-Reply-To: References: <50382E10.7050403@bitsavers.org> <503830A4.5040809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5038EEC3.10004@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/12 10:43 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> Eventually, they did ship a Unisoft 68000 Unix system (the Tricep) >> by just replacing the Z80 board with a 68000/68451 board made by Dual Systems. >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/morrow/tricep > > Have you been able to get anything interesting out of that Tricep machine I sold you? > Not yet. That is the same project as trying to get Micronix running. The only thing I've done so far is to build a couple of Andrew's 4mb static RAM cards to use instead of the 256K DRAM boards. I did image a bunch of the floppies last year. I think I put those up on bitsavers. I also have another 5" hard disk that was said to have come out of a Tricep. That was the same person who had the Unisoft System V manual set that I scanned. Getting the hard disks imaged was one of the first targets for my Diskferret, as soon as it's possible to do so. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 25 10:37:04 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 08:37:04 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> On 8/25/12 6:17 AM, allison wrote: >> You may be thinking about the fact that OS/8 could be run as a background job as part of RTS-8. >> > Indeed it can and also under TSS-8. > TSS/8 only gives you a virtual 4K PDP-8 MULTOS/8 support 32K of addressing, ETOS supports 20K but required a special memory mapping board http://www.pdp8.net/os/ From chrise at pobox.com Sat Aug 25 11:52:57 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:52:57 -0500 Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <503855D5.80502@brouhaha.com> References: <500F0E8A.30102@neurotica.com> <20120726015423.GA2740@n0jcf.net> <20120812221201.GN26103@n0jcf.net> <503855D5.80502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120825165257.GY26103@n0jcf.net> On Friday (08/24/2012 at 09:34PM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: > Charles Dickman wrote: > >With the PROM images and after customizing Eric Smith's 2900 > >disassembler (Thanks Eric), I was able to generate a microcode > >listing. So far it is a one to one match with the Technical Manual > >flow chart. > > Cool! Thanks for doing that! I was going to do it, but you beat me > to it. :-) Yes! Thanks guys. Great stuff. -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 25 13:12:36 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:12:36 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: References: from "cctech-request@classiccmp.org" at Aug 24, 2012 12:00:00 pm GMT, Message-ID: <5038B324.15231.5852E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 19:44, John Elliott wrote: > In theory you could replace the boot ROM (desolder the 8041, read > its > contents, and burn an 8741 with the new boot image. Or even an 8742, > if you wanted more than 256 bytes of boot program). In the 9512 it > would be even easier, because the corresponding microcontroller used > an external ROM. Hmmm. Tony seems to think that the boot code resided in the ASIC, but that would have been the difficult way to go about it. Thanks for the info about the hard disk providing its own boot code. That's definitely a starting point. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 25 13:14:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:14:35 -0700 Subject: Dysan PAT-2+ manual In-Reply-To: <503827EA.2000802@bitsavers.org> References: <503827EA.2000802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5038B39B.12349.5A213E@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2012 at 18:18, Al Kossow wrote: > Anyone have one? I have the front half of one, which is up on > bitsavers now. Termites got the back of it. It's very dim in my memory, but I believe I have some Z80 source code (furnished by Dysan?) that accompanied one of their alignment disks. Would you be interested in it? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 25 14:26:03 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:26:03 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator Message-ID: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Anyone know of any attempts to turn something like this into a tiny terminal emulator? http://www.ebay.com/itm/271016835321 It might also make a cute little simulated front panel for an emulator. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 25 14:32:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 15:32:13 -0400 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5039283D.4080606@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2012 03:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Anyone know of any attempts to turn something like this into a tiny > terminal emulator? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/271016835321 I haven't, but I could. I'm living and breathing ARMs these days, specifically Philips...erm, "NXP" LPC family. > It might also make a cute little simulated front panel for an emulator. That would be fun! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Aug 25 16:12:54 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:12:54 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> On 08/25/2012 11:37 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/25/12 6:17 AM, allison wrote: > >>> You may be thinking about the fact that OS/8 could be run as a >>> background job as part of RTS-8. >>> >> Indeed it can and also under TSS-8. >> > TSS/8 only gives you a virtual 4K PDP-8 > > MULTOS/8 support 32K of addressing, ETOS supports 20K but required a > special memory mapping board > > http://www.pdp8.net/os/ > > Yes, I know, I even have a PDP-8 with 24KW of core. However TSS-8 and OS/8 had many hacks that allowed things that were, uhm, unsupported. ;] I keep a few DM-IIIs handy to run the bastard stepchild OS/278 as well. The point remains that CP/M was not a significant OS advance save for it made a similar phenomena occur, that was the standard software and generalized hardware platform every one could develop code on and for. For the PDP-8 and PDP-11 it was DECUS, for CP/M is was way bigger and ranged from free to expensive complete packages. The only advances that CP/M brought was the concept of OS independent BIOS for hardware abstraction, a scatter/gather file system that didn't need to be compacted to allow for files larger than the largest contiguous unoccupied block and a set of APIs while not large were adequate. Oh, and it was cheap and cheap enough that if your media was supported or allowed for SSSD 8" then the OS was port-able, and applications could be portable. While it wasn't perfect it could be run on anything 8080, 8085, NSC800, z80, z180, z280 and there was an official 68K version. However in the 8080 world if you had enough ram from 0000h to at least 20K (48K was considered practical) and mass storage it could run a whole lot of applications (though there were some programs that were limited to Z80). I never saw an OS for the 6502 or 6800 world that unified all the 6502s for example. They were fragmented by vendor unless the other vendor was a clone and not litigated out of existence. It not to say there weren't a lot of 6502 OSes that weren't good but any of them that ran on Apple ][ would not run on Commie or ZYX! Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 25 15:34:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:34:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RX02 microcode listing In-Reply-To: from "Charles Dickman" at Aug 24, 12 05:01:42 pm Message-ID: > With the PROM images and after customizing Eric Smith's 2900 disassembler > (Thanks Eric), I was able to generate a microcode listing. So far it is a > one to one match with the Technical Manual flow chart. Yesterday I posted a photocopy of the listing I produced some years ago to a friend of mine who can scan it. Hopefully it will then be made available... My listing also agreed with the flowcharts in the tech manual, and it apperas I used the same routine neames when I commented it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 25 16:14:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:14:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: <5038B324.15231.5852E6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 25, 12 11:12:36 am Message-ID: > > On 24 Aug 2012 at 19:44, John Elliott wrote: > > > In theory you could replace the boot ROM (desolder the 8041, read > > its > > contents, and burn an 8741 with the new boot image. Or even an 8742, > > if you wanted more than 256 bytes of boot program). In the 9512 it > > would be even easier, because the corresponding microcontroller used > > an external ROM. > > Hmmm. Tony seems to think that the boot code resided in the ASIC, > but that would have been the difficult way to go about it. That is what I was told by one of the designers at Amstrad. Using the 8041 as a boot ROM would be problematic IMHO. There could be code i nthere to preset the boot ROM bytes one at a time on a noraml read cycle I suppose -- i nfact that could eb why the PROG pin is conencted to a signal o nteh SIC alled NBOOT. Readign the ROM directly involves overvoltaging one of the 8041 pins, I can't eee the circuitry to do that. Waht does a PCW do (or not do) if powered up with the pritner microcontroller missing. > > Thanks for the info about the hard disk providing its own boot code. > That's definitely a starting point. Wht does the MDIS/ signal on the expansion connetor do? It gors to the gate array and nowhere else/ From the name it might be 'Memory Disable' and might, indded, disable the internal boot ROM if pulled low at the right times. I didn't relaise before I looked at the schemtaics that the video and sync signals are on thet expansion conenctor too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 25 16:04:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:04:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5038E133.20902@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 25, 12 09:29:07 am Message-ID: > > My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QX10. Interesting hardware > > at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, etc. > > I have a QX-10 on the desk here beside me; it really is a lovely machine > (despite the plastic case; somehow I always think that 'real' computers I am not overly in love wit hthe design of the case. From what I remember the floppy drives are fixed to the cover, you have to lift it a little way and then unplug the data and poweer cables to get the case apart. But I cna tolerate it. > should have metal cases). And yes, those drives are great (although I had > to clean/strip the eject mechanisms on mine; I suspect they're prone to I stripped mine when I first got the machine, cleaned everything and id a full alignment. Be warned that strippign the positioner is not recomended -- aligning it is 'fun'. And strippign the spinde motor is certainly not recomented -- therte's a tacho coil in the cover with thin wires goign down to the PCB. They're covered in quange, so you don't notice them until you've ripped them off. I had to remove the coil, unwind a ocuple of turns and put it back (fortunately the inner end of the widing was still long enough to sodler to, so I didn't have to unwind the whole coil). My diagrams for the TF20 -- I think they're on one of the old computer sites -- include rather more scehamtics for this drive than the Epson manual... > sticking with age). I'm still looking for an Epson dot-matrix printer of > some flavor to complete mine (and some add-on cards would be nice) I think oyu must be the only person here _not_ to have an Epson dot matrix printer :-). Theyr are easy to find. Finding HPIB and HPIL interfacea for them (either is needed for the QX10, of course, but they do both exist) is rather harder. > > Did you do anything to modify the airflow on yours? I think I read > somewhere that they were prone to filling up with dust due to the lack of > filter and fan direction. No, I don;'t run it enough for that to be a problem. I open it up and clean it from time to time anyway. > > > Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein? It runs soemthing called > > XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same). > > I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder > how common "almost CP/M" variants were... Didn't Torch call it 'CPN' (or was it 'CP/N')? -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Aug 25 16:55:42 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:55:42 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5038E133.20902@gmail.com> References: <5038E133.20902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503949DE.2000901@verizon.net> On 08/25/2012 10:29 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 08/23/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I must admit I was never a fan of CP/M. > > I missed the CP/M boat by a couple of years - started out with home > computers where it was all BASIC and assembler, then straight to a DOS > machine. I have a feeling that CP/M would have driven me nuts if used > 'in anger' though. > Why? If DOS was tolerable then CP/M was by virtue of it did the least to get in the way. Then again in the PC world (8088) DOS was largely dominant. For the 8080/z80 world DOS usually meant something far weaker than CP/M such as NS*DOS, FDOS or worse a keyboard monitor. CP/M could be matched to most 8080/z80/z180 hardware, NS*DOS for example was married to the NS* MDS (mini Disk system). > Purely within a vintage context I like it though, it doesn't get in > the way of the bare metal much (and I've always been more of a > hardware than software person), but still provides some vaguely useful > services on otherwise-complicated machines. > What is "otherwise-complicated machines"? Is this a z80 with more than 32K, mass storage. and two serial ports? To me thats not a complicated machine. I would say having a an OS that can do basic IO and file storage did allow ME to do things like not write IO drivers and instead concentrate on solving problems. >> My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QC10. Interesting hardware >> at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, >> etc. > > I have a QX-10 on the desk here beside me; it really is a lovely > machine (despite the plastic case; somehow I always think that 'real' > computers should have metal cases). And yes, those drives are great > (although I had to clean/strip the eject mechanisms on mine; I suspect > they're prone to sticking with age). I'm still looking for an Epson > dot-matrix printer of some flavor to complete mine (and some add-on > cards would be nice) > That was good hardware but it was a PC with chrome trim. > Did you do anything to modify the airflow on yours? I think I read > somewhere that they were prone to filling up with dust due to the lack > of filter and fan direction. > Not unique to most PCs and many other machines. >> Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein? It runs soemthing called >> XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the >> same). > > I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me > wonder how common "almost CP/M" variants were... > There were many outright ripoffs, I looked at one at the byte level and it was a copy of CP/M2 with the same bugs but a new splash screen. Also a few public domain Clean-room functional replacements that had improvements like P2DOS, SUPRBDOS, and some commercial products that were clearly improved CP/M replacements like ZRDOS and a few others. >> For versatility, I guess an S100 machine is desirable. Not that I was >> ever really into that bus. > > I've been chasing one for a long time; I just have a thing for > backplane-based systems (and the actual bus doesn't bother me). > I have several. They are a lot of work to make different brand boards work and nothing is ever plug and play. Some boards and CPUs plain will not work in combination. I have a pair of NS* horizons a few Compupro and a complete CCS and two Altairs (8800 early and 8800BT boards from the latter are not usable in the earlier or the other way around!) . I tend to build one up and leave it alone. Board swapping usually tended to kill working systems. While versatile the bus was not well thought out as it was the ALTAIR bus and in the beginning for undecoded 8080 status and control signals. When the Z80 hit, those signals had to be faked as the Z80 had simpler set of control signals with very different timing. Want a good 8080/z80 bus try ECB or MultiBUS, though for Z80 STD was popular in the industrial controls realm. I like bus oriented systems but the bus has to be simple (or at least concise) and coherent and S100 was furthest from that. Every board I did for S100 had to be buffered for in-data and out-data as they were separate, then I had to take all the loss control signals and decode them into IO-read, IO-write, mem-read, mem-write, IN-data enable and out-data enable and heaven forbid if I wanted to be Bus master (DMA or second CPU). In the end 7-9 pieces of TTL LSI or two gals and and a pair of LS245s for basic IO card. Adding bus master in the minimal form meant at least 12 pieces of TTL for the bus interface and then you had the actual card function components. Also 80% of the S100 crates made the cooling air flow, doesn't. Even my favored NS* has 144pound card stock taped in to direct the air from the PS cavity to across the cards. The Compupro and CCS was not much better. The ALTAIR crates the fan blew or sucked air from the card end edges but, the other end of the card from had no entrance or exit for the airflow. TEI did make a box with enough well placed sheet metal to direct air across the cards, those were scarce and cost much more as they did a better PS as well. One thing about S100, it it wasn't heavy it was wrong. Things I know from being part of that whole era and others as well. Allison > cheers > > Jules > From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 25 17:17:13 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:17:13 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <503926CB.6090401 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Anyone know of any attempts to turn something like this into a tiny > terminal emulator? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/271016835321 Seems kinda overkill in processing power to me and the display is really quite small for realistic use beyond a few minutes. > It might also make a cute little simulated front panel for an emulator. Yes, that seems much more likely. There have been terminal emulators built out of an ATmega chip and using an oscilloscope for the display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 17:33:08 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:33:08 -0400 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Richard wrote: > There have been terminal emulators built out of an ATmega chip and using > an oscilloscope for the display. > I built the Dutchtronix predecessor to that. Much fun. I think it was my first embedded ATmega kit, back before Arduino was everywhere. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Aug 25 17:49:12 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:49:12 -0400 Subject: GIDE replacement? In-Reply-To: <009601cd82c1$6b188340$414989c0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <003501cd8254$e192cb10$a4b86130$@YAHOO.COM>, <50382A4C.8070905@kaput.homeunix.org> <5037CAE1.24437.23EB9C2@cclist.sydex.com> <5038332C.7030800@neurotica.com> <009601cd82c1$6b188340$414989c0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <50395668.2070405@verizon.net> On 08/25/2012 08:59 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi > I've written up a preliminary schematic for the ZIDE circuit. It is similar > to the XT-IDE V2 in most ways but with a few differences. > > The ROM has changed from a 8KB-32KB EPROM/EEPROM to a 2KB EPROM/EEPROM. > This is because the address space of a Z80 is much smaller than the 8088 and > generally you don't need large ROMs. 2KB of optional read/write EEPROM or > read only EPROM should be sufficient. I'd make the rom phantomable even for 8088. > > The ISA bus signals are slightly different than the Z80 so I did a little > conversion of signals. For instance, the ISA RESET and IRQ signals are all > active-high where on the Z80 they are active low. Also the ISA > MEMR*/MEMW*/IOW*/IOR* have to be converted to Z80 MREQ*/IORQ*/RD*/WR* ISA is nearly multibus signals save for the screwed up interrupt lines. Its a fully decoded bus. However Z80 only needs a few gates to get decoded signals. > The interrupts on Z80 are simpler too. Depends on mode. They can be as complex as you would like and can use. > However since the Z80 will be in > shim socket I am thinking the RESET* and INT* signals will have to come from > open collector gates to accommodate whatever the host machine is already > doing on those signals. And be strapable for OPEN. many of the host machines the INT line was NOT open collector. Reset is INPUT to the IDE device not outputs so open collector are only needed if there will be two drives and not on the Z80 since as the source of those drove the ZIDE. Interrupts are not used in the early ZIDE as all the systems were polled IO and the status register is tested and available that way. If your using interrupts then the interrupt source (host system) will likely be TTL and not open collector making it a not bus able but a into the card logically ORed with the host sources and then put back out to the Z80 and TTL. IN Z80 and 8088/86 world interrups are handled very different. Z80 it can be a fixed address (loc 66H) 8080 Vectors (RST0-7 or CALL NNNN), OR Z80 vector mode (low byte INT vector + Highbyte int register= ISR). The 8088 wants a 8bit vector to point into the low memory int map. Again for z80 since the IO is PIO it makes little sense to mess with interrupts as status check is easy and the response time of IDE is faster than Z80 for data available or written as the device is buffered (usually much more than a sector even in the oldest ones). > If anyone wants to take a look at the schematic please contact me offline. > However, I am keeping the 16 bit IDE interface regardless. It makes no > sense to me to restrict compatibility of the ZIDE to small percentage of > IDE/CF devices and effectively lock out so many still useful IDE drives. ZIDE was simple device that did the 8:16 conversion for the data bus and in such a was that sequenced read and write to one address did the lifting. In that it was a very simple device. the whole 8:16 conversion was due to two things sub 60mb drives existed then and people never though of tossing the high byte for simplicity. It does not impact CF comparability or the few rare hard disks that did do 8bit mode at the hardware interface level. One thing to remember is this. IDE drives unless they are very old and under 100M are bigger than any Z80 OS can use in any practical way. Using only the Low 8bits for a drive of 500MB means you have sectors of 256bytes and 250MB of space and CP/M 2 is limited to 16 drives or 8mb or 128MB, MPM or CPM plus ups that to 512M (16x32MB) but the WHOLE Walnut creek CDrom with duplicate files removed is less than that and that is the for the most part whole CP/M free software world. Oh and doing a directory of a drive that take a while, a whole pot of coffee while. FYI try to find drives less than 500MB that are not questionable though I have a box load of 40 to 420meg drives. NOTE: using newer drives in the 500MB and larger, the cache on board is large enough to hold at least 128K and some as large as 1MB, so their access time for any sector read is likely going to be fast for the first sector and in cache for the rest after that. Don't use skew as it's pointless and tends to scatter the data. Also use larger allocation blocks like 8K as that means fewer seeks and directory reads adding speed. Also drive in the 500MB and larger especially 1Gb and larger have internal LRU seeks to try and anticipate the next read and have that in cache. Reading and writing to cache is faster than old school MFM interfaces and drives. For CF and later this is even better. GIDE performance was limited to Z80 PIO speeds and that was in the around 190Kbytes second for a 4mhz part and over 470KB/S for a 10mhz part (without waits). The reason for this is the sector silo is easily as fast as the execution speed for a INIR or OUTIR and those are 21cycles (5.25US per byte@ 4mhz without waits). In reality it's slower due to status checking before and after and system overhead but the disk buffers are fast. When compared to the easier and somewhat simple 8255 PPI interface that holds speeds to under 20K bytes second as readign and writing the 8255 imposes a lot of software overhead.. Doing the above without 8:16 translation impacts the performace near zero and in some cases can help as the hardware to go from z80 to IDE is a few gate s and inverters plus a LS245 bus buffer. Most of the drives the data interface and IO address low order decode is internal and faster than most Z80s (io access time 125ns for old drives and faster for the 33mhz and 66mhz IDE) Allison > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Aug 25 17:59:40 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:59:40 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503958DC.3050605@verizon.net> On 08/25/2012 05:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 24 Aug 2012 at 19:44, John Elliott wrote: >> >>> In theory you could replace the boot ROM (desolder the 8041, read >>> its >>> contents, and burn an 8741 with the new boot image. Or even an 8742, >>> if you wanted more than 256 bytes of boot program). In the 9512 it >>> would be even easier, because the corresponding microcontroller used >>> an external ROM. >> Hmmm. Tony seems to think that the boot code resided in the ASIC, >> but that would have been the difficult way to go about it. > That is what I was told by one of the designers at Amstrad. > > Using the 8041 as a boot ROM would be problematic IMHO. There could be > code i nthere to preset the boot ROM bytes one at a time on a noraml read > cycle I suppose -- i nfact that could eb why the PROG pin is conencted to > a signal o nteh SIC alled NBOOT. Readign the ROM directly involves > overvoltaging one of the 8041 pins, I can't eee the circuitry to do that. That would be insane as 8041 was a 1Kb (code space) embedded micro with and trivial IO port designed as a intelligent IO device. Boot code there would have to be small and the main system would still need a boot to get the code out as the 8041 could not be a bus master (it could be a DMA target/source). One can be creative but that seems like the hard way to get things done and every system I've seen that has the 8041 used all the code space to do more useful things (printers, keyboard scanning or IO for examples). Allison > Waht does a PCW do (or not do) if powered up with the pritner > microcontroller missing. > >> Thanks for the info about the hard disk providing its own boot code. >> That's definitely a starting point. > Wht does the MDIS/ signal on the expansion connetor do? It gors to the > gate array and nowhere else/ From the name it might be 'Memory Disable' > and might, indded, disable the internal boot ROM if pulled low at the > right times. > > I didn't relaise before I looked at the schemtaics that the video and > sync signals are on thet expansion conenctor too. > > -tony > > From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 25 19:03:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:03:43 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Richard wrote: > > There have been terminal emulators built out of an ATmega chip and using > > an oscilloscope for the display. > > > > I built the Dutchtronix predecessor to that. Much fun. I think it > was my first embedded ATmega kit, back before Arduino was everywhere. I would think that a modern terminal emulator would be a small box that: - used USB for keyboard and/or mouse - used VGA or HDMI output to a monitor for display - supported true DTR/CTS handshaking - open source hardware design and firmware - 9V wall wart supply - SD card for storage/printer capture The whole thing should fit in a project box not much larger than one needed to mount the various connectors, with the DB-25 one being the biggest. If the microcontroller has enough firmware and memory storage, you could even emulate 80s graphics terminals like the Tek 4105. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 25 19:17:22 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:17:22 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50396B12.7050108@bitsavers.org> On 8/25/12 5:03 PM, Richard wrote: > I would think that a modern terminal emulator would be a small box that: > - used VGA or HDMI output to a monitor for display > I was looking at the TFT LCD to get rid of the monitor. This all started when Lyle Bickley came by my office and he was talking about buying old laptops to use as terminals, which got me thinking about how small and cheap you could make a terminal now with an integrated display. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Aug 25 19:41:54 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 19:41:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Aug 2012, Richard wrote: > Ethan Dicks writes: >> On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Richard wrote: >> >>> There have been terminal emulators built out of an ATmega chip and using >>> an oscilloscope for the display. >>> >> >> I built the Dutchtronix predecessor to that. Much fun. I think it >> was my first embedded ATmega kit, back before Arduino was everywhere. > > I would think that a modern terminal emulator would be a small box that: > > - used USB for keyboard and/or mouse > - used VGA or HDMI output to a monitor for display > - supported true DTR/CTS handshaking > - open source hardware design and firmware > - 9V wall wart supply > - SD card for storage/printer capture > > The whole thing should fit in a project box not much larger than one > needed to mount the various connectors, with the DB-25 one being the > biggest. That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi with one of those FTDI FT232 USB to RS232 adapters...well, except for the open source hardware bit ;) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 25 19:50:33 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:50:33 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> On 8/25/12 5:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi or a oLinuxXino-mini https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-mini.html From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 25 19:59:51 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Working in other countries [was Re: I'm looking for a job] In-Reply-To: References: <5035ec3e.4e04cc0a.0ca2.44f4@mx.google.com> <50360157.4070209@verizon.net> <20120823111000.GC16844@zoho.com> <1345755086.51682.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201208260059.UAA18250@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Nowadays, it's not unusual anymore that people are willing to move >> to the other side of the globe for a job if it's what they want or >> need. > You make it sound as if all that's involved is a plane flight and > shipping your personal belongings. It's not anywhere nearly as > simplistic as that, and hasn't been that way for a long, long time. It varies greatly. > When I got out of college in 1986, I worked 5 months in France. I > had to go through a huge amount of bullshit just to do that > short-term work as an employee. I can't even begin to imagine how > much bullshit you have to go through now. My experience on the subject is a decade old, but when I worked in Norway (at Universitetet i Troms?) for six months - the second half of 2002 - I had to do remarkably little bullshit hoop-jumping. There are, of course, many possible reasons my experience differs from yours, but I have no basis for more than wild speculation which one(s) are actually behind it. I suspect the individual variation from case to case is large enough that few generalizations on the subject are valid. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 25 20:05:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:05:34 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5039765E.6050702@bitsavers.org> On 8/25/12 5:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi with one of those FTDI FT232 USB to RS232 adapters...well, except for the open source hardware bit ;) > > here is a serious hack for adding an LCD display http://spritesmods.com/?art=spitft&f=had From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 25 21:18:43 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201208260218.WAA18600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...terminal emulator...] >> The whole thing should fit in a project box not much larger than one >> needed to mount the various connectors, with the DB-25 one being the >> biggest. > That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi with one of > those FTDI FT232 USB to RS232 adapters...well, except for the open > source hardware bit ;) I actually suspect that to get it down to "a project box not much larger than one needed to mount the various connectors" you'd end up having to use at least some undocumented or only-partially-documented chips. I'd love to be wrong. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 25 21:32:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 19:32:27 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <201208260218.WAA18600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org>, , <201208260218.WAA18600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5039284B.25664.221F31F@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Aug 2012 at 22:18, Mouse wrote: > I actually suspect that to get it down to "a project box not much > larger than one needed to mount the various connectors" you'd end up > having to use at least some undocumented or only-partially-documented > chips. Stupid question--probably something I'm not understanding. Why not just use a cheap digital picture frame? There are plenty of hacks on the web for those. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 25 21:50:55 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:50:55 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/25/2012 6:03 PM, Richard wrote: > I would think that a modern terminal emulator would be a small box that: > > - used USB for keyboard and/or mouse > - used VGA or HDMI output to a monitor for display > - supported true DTR/CTS handshaking > - open source hardware design and firmware > - 9V wall wart supply > - SD card for storage/printer capture > NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! Ben. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 22:22:40 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:22:40 -0500 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208232130.q7NLU3b69764874@floodgap.com> References: <201208232130.q7NLU3b69764874@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50399680.5000700@gmail.com> On 08/23/2012 04:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I don't know if CP/M was ever ported to the 6502, but even if it was, >> you'd be stuck for software as it's all 8080,8085 or Z-80 based. > > I doubt it personally. All the CP/Ms that "ran" on 6502-based systems > required some sort of Z80 expansion (C64, Apple II, and "sort of" the C128). ... and add various Acorn machines to that list. cheers Jules From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 22:38:31 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:38:31 -0700 Subject: The Gift of Apollo In-Reply-To: <50399680.5000700@gmail.com> References: <201208232130.q7NLU3b69764874@floodgap.com> <50399680.5000700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50399A37.6010707@gmail.com> I am sure everyone has heard the news of Neil Armstrong passing today but, after all the clips of the landing and I ran into this and it brought tears to my eyes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF-eRBZLLwU . Well done Neil and all those that helped him get there.. From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Aug 25 22:38:54 2012 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:38:54 -0500 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com> Perhaps there is no definitive CP/M machine because CP/M was the equivalent of an early unix/linux where it was possible to run the code (or an easy modification thereof) on so many platforms that it can not be locked to any one in particular. I'm not saying that CP/M is what unix/linux are, and in fact unix existed first, but for what it was, CP/M was a fairly open system and that was both it's vision and it's downfall. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 26 01:07:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 23:07:18 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5039BD16.9030104@brouhaha.com> Tom Uban wrote: > Perhaps there is no definitive CP/M machine because CP/M was the > equivalent of an early unix/linux where it was possible to run the > code (or an easy modification thereof) on so many platforms that > it can not be locked to any one in particular. The Intel MDS-800 was the canonical CP/M machine, in that it was the only machine directly supported by Digital Research, at least for 1.x and 2.x. That's certainly not saying that it was best, or definitive (whatever that means). From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 26 01:19:54 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 23:19:54 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <5039BD16.9030104@brouhaha.com> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry>, <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com>, <5039BD16.9030104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50395D9A.13103.2F22D75@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Aug 2012 at 23:07, Eric Smith wrote: > The Intel MDS-800 was the canonical CP/M machine, in that it was the > only machine directly supported by Digital Research, at least for 1.x > and 2.x. It was a convenient verification. For example, both MP/M and MP/M II shipped on SSSD 8" floppies and would boot on an MDS. So if you were doing a port to a new system, you could always boot the "standard" to see how things really worked. Otherwise, you were guessing. The MP/M CBIOS/XIOS could be a real hassle to figure out. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Aug 25 20:21:35 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:21:35 -0400 Subject: Need Older PDP-8/I Schematics Message-ID: We are debugging an interrupt problem with the PDP-8/I at the RICM. Today we found that the INT RQST signal is not routed through the M117 module in slot F11 as shown on page 7 in the PDP8-I_CPU_blueprints_1969.pdf. Does anyone have a set of prints where page 7 is older than revision L? -- Michael Thompson From vrs at msn.com Sun Aug 26 04:00:35 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 02:00:35 -0700 Subject: Need Older PDP-8/I Schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > We are debugging an interrupt problem with the PDP-8/I at the RICM. > Today we found that the INT RQST signal is not routed through the M117 > module in slot F11 as shown on page 7 in the > PDP8-I_CPU_blueprints_1969.pdf. > > Does anyone have a set of prints where page 7 is older than revision L? Yes. I have a schematic in which INT_RQST goes to F21D1, F_SET goes to F21E1, and the result from F21F1 goes to the flip-flop at E33J1. The ECO added KEY_LAEXDEP_L to the NAND, which required the M117 instead of the M113. The PDF is called "dec-8i-hr2a-d-pr (PDP8i Schematics -- OLD).pdf" on my box, but I'm not sure where I got it. Ah. I found it here: http://pdp-8.org/scans/highgate/pdp8i-docs/dec-8i-hr2a-d-pr.pdf Hope that helps! Vince From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 26 07:12:24 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 06:12:24 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <503972D9.1040509 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 8/25/12 5:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > > That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi > > or a oLinuxXino-mini > https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-mini.html Both of those have about 3x the amount of hardware compared to what I described. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 26 07:15:36 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 06:15:36 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <50398F0F.7070608 at jetnet.ab.ca>, ben writes: > On 8/25/2012 6:03 PM, Richard wrote: > > > I would think that a modern terminal emulator would be a small box that: > > > > - used USB for keyboard and/or mouse > > - used VGA or HDMI output to a monitor for display > > - supported true DTR/CTS handshaking > > - open source hardware design and firmware > > - 9V wall wart supply > > - SD card for storage/printer capture > > NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! Then where are you going to get system power? You can't draw it from the monitor connection. You can't draw it from the keyboard or the mouse. You can't draw it from RS-232. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Aug 26 07:17:29 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 08:17:29 -0400 Subject: The Gift of Apollo In-Reply-To: <50399A37.6010707@gmail.com> References: <201208232130.q7NLU3b69764874@floodgap.com> <50399680.5000700@gmail.com> <50399A37.6010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503A13D9.5090803@compsys.to> >mc68010 wrote: > I am sure everyone has heard the news of Neil Armstrong passing today > but, after all the clips of the landing and I ran into this and it > brought tears to my eyes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF-eRBZLLwU . > Well done Neil and all those that helped him get there.. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 26 09:52:51 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:52:51 +0200 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 06:12:24 -0600 Richard wrote: > > > That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi > > > > or a oLinuxXino-mini > > https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-mini.html > > Both of those have about 3x the amount of hardware compared to what I > described. Then have a look at the OLinuXino-Micro: https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-micro.html FEATURES: iMX233 ARM926J processor at 454Mhz 64 MB RAM SD-card connector for booting the Linux image TV PAL/NTSC video output 1 USB High Speed Host three Buttons 2x30 pin GPIO for connection of other hardware PCB dimensions: 3.00'' x 1.70'' (76.2mm x 43.2mm) Nominal dimensions: 3.40'' x 1.70'' (86.4mm x 43.2mm) 23.95 EUR It's still more then the LPC1768-Mini-DK, but runs Linux. This will ease software development imensly, as you can reuse already invented wheels. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 26 11:09:19 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201208261609.MAA24568@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> - 9V wall wart supply >> NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! > Then where are you going to get system power? A non-wall-wart external supply, presumably. While I'm not quite as vociferous about it as Ben, I don't like wall-warts either. I'd much rather use a power-brick style supply (ie, a device with a - preferably detachable - mains cord, and another cord to the powered device). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 26 12:08:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:08:34 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/12 5:12 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<503972D9.1040509 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> On 8/25/12 5:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi >> >> or a oLinuxXino-mini >> https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-mini.html > > Both of those have about 3x the amount of hardware compared to what I > described. The problem is you can't find something for 1/3 the price to get 1/3 of the hardware http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer with 7" LCD What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when I have to stick something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks like this will work just fine with a USB serial dongle. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 26 12:27:45 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:27:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <201208261609.MAA24568@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> <201208261609.MAA24568@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2012, Mouse wrote: >>>> - 9V wall wart supply > >>> NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! > >> Then where are you going to get system power? > > A non-wall-wart external supply, presumably. While I'm not quite as > vociferous about it as Ben, I don't like wall-warts either. I'd much > rather use a power-brick style supply (ie, a device with a - preferably > detachable - mains cord, and another cord to the powered device). I'm not terribly fond of them myself, but I don't really mind some of the better made switch-mode wall-warts, and some of them are even assembled with screws. That said, I have had to replace quite a few faulty electrolytic capacitors in a number of these devices... Poorly made power inefficient (20-60%) linear transformer type wall-warts on the other hand annoy me to no end and I'll use a switch-mode type wall-wart (80%+) in place of a linear transformer type whenever possible. When you have dozens upon dozens of them in use, the heat generated from the wasted power becomes noticeable. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 26 12:34:49 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:34:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/26/12 5:12 AM, Richard wrote: >> Al Kossow writes: >>> On 8/25/12 5:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >>> >>>> That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi >>> >>> or a oLinuxXino-mini >>> https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-mini.html >> >> Both of those have about 3x the amount of hardware compared to what I >> described. > > The problem is you can't find something for 1/3 the price to get 1/3 of the > hardware > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 > > for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer with 7" LCD > > What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when I > have to stick something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks > like this will work just fine with a USB serial dongle. That's definitely hard to beat, both in price and hardware wise being nearly ready to go right out of the box. One issue that I've discovered with some of these mini-notebooks is that models with "flat" keyboard keys (no slight bevels to the edges) make it very hard to touch-type because you can't always feel where the keys are. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 26 12:47:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20120826095809.K77980@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 25 Aug 2012, Tom Uban wrote: > Perhaps there is no definitive CP/M machine because CP/M was the > equivalent of an early unix/linux where it was possible to run the > code (or an easy modification thereof) on so many platforms that > it can not be locked to any one in particular. I'm not saying that > CP/M is what unix/linux are, and in fact unix existed first, but > for what it was, CP/M was a fairly open system and that was both > it's vision and it's downfall. "downfall"??!? The "downfall of CP/M was a culture clash. The port of CP/M to 8086/8088 wasn't complete when IBM decided to go with Microsoft, instead, DUE TO CULTURE CLASH with DRI. Microsoft then proceeded with an unauthorized port of CP/M to 8086/8088 (QDOS from SCP). Patterson, fortunately, had been fascinated by the linked-list allocation management (FAT) (V the list of blocks by the original CP/M) It continued on as MS-DOS (also PC-DOS) for many years. Gordon Letwin did a rewrite of a whole new version as OS/2. The bulk of users stayed with the original version. Cutler, et. al., combined that with other code, and replaced it with NT. The bulk of users stayed with the original version. MS-DOS got an add-on command processor (Windoze) DOS ex omnes est divisa in partes tres: BIOS (ROM + IBMBIO.COM/IO.SYS), BDOS (IBMDOS.COM/MSDOS.SYS), CCP (COMMAND.COM and/or WIN.COM) The add-on command processor got more integrated into the BDOS with Windoze95. NT was presented as "the next version" and users were told to switch. The bulk of users stayed with the original version (95/98). An update was released for 95/98 called ME ("Millenium Edition"); An update was released for NT called "Windows 2000"/"W2K"; W2K was presented as "the next version" and users were told to switch. The bulk of users stayed with the original version (95/98). An update was released for W2K, called "XP"; XP was presented as "the next version" and users were not given a choice; Both ME and W2K were discontinued, and the users "had to" "upgrade" to XP. Vista and Windoze7 are both minor upgrades to XP. What REAL changes are there? The college where I work was named "Vista College" (from mid 1970s until 2006). In 2006, when Vista came out, the college was renamed. Many of us fought for an extension of the old name, so that we could use that for marketing to bolster the sagging enrololments in our digital sweatshop intro classes (How to use Microsoft Office, etc.) - "Come learn Vista at Vista College"! "Windows 7 is more user-friendly than Vista. I don't like that." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper "downfall"? That's a life, so far, of almost 40 years! I maintain that all of the changes (except perhaps the "theft" of control) were evolutionary, not revolutionarey, no matter how many times marketing put "All NEW! and IMPROVED!" on the box. Note: version numbering and naming has been under control of Marketing. NOT just at Microsoft. TRS-DOS STARTED with 2.0 Apple-DOS STARTED with 3.2? Incrementing of minor version numbers happened when sales needed a minor boost; Incrementing of major version numbers happened when sales needed a major boost. Each of us has different views on what changes where "important". Are different disk formats "important"? 1.00 SSDD 8SPT "160K" 1.10/1.25 DSDD 8SPT "320K" 2.00 DSDD 9SPT "360K", & hard drives 2.11 (MS-DOS, NO PC-DOS) easier implementation of machine specific formats 3.00 "High density" "1.2M" 3.20 "720K" 3.30 "1.4M", & Hard drives >32M I think that IMPORTANT changes include: 2.00 MS-DOS/PC-DOS subdirectories, "Unix-style" file handling (arguably the big improvement of MS-DOS over CP/M) 2.11 MS-DOS (easier customization) 3.10 MS-DOS/PC-DOS Network Redirector (650M! "network" drives (CD-ROM)) 3.31 MS-DOS (easier customization), also FAT16 (>32M drives) Somebody else might think that the most important "change" was "Long Filenames", even though it was NOT implemented, merely a system of using up FPDEs to store long NICKNAMES, such that FILENA~1 filename could be linked to "Filname of file that contains the content and data of all of the important stuff", and getting "DISK FULL" messages on an almost empty disk because the root directory had been filled up with file nicknames, instead of files. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 26 13:10:43 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:10:43 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120826095809.K77980@shell.lmi.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com> <20120826095809.K77980@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503A66A3.7050009@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Note: version numbering and naming has been under control of > Marketing. NOT just at Microsoft. [...] > Apple-DOS STARTED with 3.2? First beta test version was 3.0, and first release version was 3.1. However, it was quickly replaced with 3.2 then 3.2.1. See the end of Paul Laughton's "Apple Computer" page for more detail about how the version numbering was done: http://www.laughton.com/Apple/Apple.html From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 26 13:07:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> <201208261609.MAA24568@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201208261807.OAA25746@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! >>> Then where are you going to get system power? >> A non-wall-wart external supply, presumably. > I'm not terribly fond of them myself, but I don't really mind some of > the better made switch-mode wall-warts, Well, maybe. I've seen one kind whose footprint on the outlet is barely more than an ordinary plug's; that's pretty close to OK. But every other wall-part I've seen insists on covering up significant amounts of outlet space beyond the outlet itself, and that I do not like. Any power supply that has physical constraints meaning two of them can't be plugged into adjacent outlets in any of the common configurations (2->6 multiplier, power-bar, and rotated power-bar in particular) is, IMO, buggy. There exist short (~ 1 foot) extension cords, which help, but it's annoying to have to supply them myself - and it's only recently that I found them; until then, I'd've had to make them from plugs, sockets, and wire. > and some of them are even assembled with screws. The one I recall seeing that was held together with screws used triangular socket heads. I made a bit for them by taking a spare screw and grinding flats on the sides to fit, but I really don't like to have to do that. (If they're not too tight and you can find exactly the right size, you can sometimes drive them with Allen wrenches. Sometimes.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 26 13:21:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:21:06 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120826095809.K77980@shell.lmi.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry>, <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com>, <20120826095809.K77980@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503A06A2.22727.786B93@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Aug 2012 at 10:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > Somebody else might think that the most important "change" was "Long > Filenames", even though it was NOT implemented, merely a system of > using up FPDEs to store long NICKNAMES, such that FILENA~1 filename > could be linked to "Filname of file that contains the content and data > of all of the important stuff", and getting "DISK FULL" messages on an > almost empty disk because the root directory had been filled up with > file nicknames, instead of files. I took it as a strong nudge by the Boys in Redmond that one shouldn't store much in the root directory of any device. On the other hand, you can pollute subdirectories all you want--just look at the typical WINDOWS\SYSTEM32 directory content (on 32-bit versions of WIndows). Kildall doubtless designed CP/M for floppy-only systems. At the time, the price of a hard disk was likely to exceed the cost of the floppy system itself, though ISIS uses a linked-list-type of file allocation. Linked-list file allocation has been around almost as long as disk drives. However, as files fragment, it gets slower and slower, particularly on drives where seeking is slow and rotational latency is long, such as floppy drives. If the list of links is lost, recovery of files can be a nightmare if the files have been written and extended frequently (A prime example are some word processing packages that update the file being edited in place. I've had to recover these by manually examining each cluster and connecting them up when the text made sense.) On STAR-OS, I was surprised to see that linked-list allocation wasn't used, but contiguous (estimate your file size on creation) with up to 4 extensions. After that, you need to consolidate your file by copying it to another or using a special utility. Given that (a) all applications tended to be big number-crunchers and (b) almost all application file I/O was done by mapping a file into memory space, using the pager to do the I/O, it made some sense. RT-11 also makes use of contiguous allocation and RSX has the option for some files. There are other OS that place forward- and backward- links in the file data itself. Losing a single data block isn't a huge catastrophe--you simply find the blocks that point to it and fill in the gap. But random access is a pain. --Chuck From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Aug 26 11:45:24 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:45:24 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> At 05:12 PM 8/25/2012, allison wrote: >Yes, I know, I even have a PDP-8 with 24KW of core. However TSS-8 and >OS/8 had many hacks >that allowed things that were, uhm, unsupported. ;] I'm not so sure about that. Let's look at the OS/8 requirement of 8K and see what we could 'hack' to make it fit in 4K. That's not possible because the User Service Routine (USR) entry point is at field 1, location 7700. You can't just move that, as every program using OS/8 would have to be rewritten to know where it's located. (Not to mention relocating the Command Decoder tables, date word, etc.) So you can't run OS/8 in less than 8KW. (P?S/8 perhaps could.). How about hacking TSS-8 so that it handles 8KW programs so OS/8 can run? I suppose it's possible, but it would require a massive restructuring of the TSS-8 RMON to permit linking two memory fields together so they're swapped in as a unit, plus adding code to support an OS/8 filesystem. There's just no room in TSS-8 to permit that much code. This isn't just speculation - my first job at DEC was in the group that supported TSS/8. I've seen the effort necessary to do much simpler things given the memory available - for example, replacing the RF08 code with code to support an RK8E/RK05 as the system disk took major bit bumming to fit. Similarly the code to support the KL8-A four-line serial multiplexer that I wrote was hard to jam in. There's just no room. Adding the equivalent of the OS/8 USR (which handles the file systems and takes up memory from 10000 through 11777 in OS/8) would be quite an accomplishment. I'm sure that you're confusing TSS-8 with ETOS or MULTOS/8, probably the latter. >I keep a few DM-IIIs handy to run the bastard stepchild OS/278 as well. Yeah, and that "bastard stepchild" problem is part of why CP/M has a slight edge over OS/8: >The only advances that CP/M brought was the concept of OS independent >BIOS for hardware >abstraction, If OS/8 had use something like the BIOS for console interaction, something like OS/278 with everything patched to support the DM-III's broken console device wouldn't have been necessary. Fix it in the "BIOS", not in every user utility program. >a scatter/gather file system that didn't need to be compacted to allow >for files >larger than the largest contiguous unoccupied block and a set of APIs >while not large were >adequate. Oh, and it was cheap and cheap enough that if your media >was supported or >allowed for SSSD 8" then the OS was port-able, and applications could >be portable. I'm not arguing that CP/M was a major leap from what OS/8 gave you. What OS/8 does with a really tiny memory footprint (just two pages of permanently resident memory used) was damn impressive. -Rick From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Aug 26 12:29:59 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:29:59 -0400 Subject: Need Older PDP-8/I Schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120826172959.GA19891@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 02:00:35AM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > >Does anyone have a set of prints where page 7 is older than revision L? > > Ah. I found it here: > http://pdp-8.org/scans/highgate/pdp8i-docs/dec-8i-hr2a-d-pr.pdf > That is from the maintenance manual I have. The full scan of the manual is here. http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=hr2a&stype=Partial+Word&dtype=Document+Sets&submit=Submit+Query I have a paper copy of larger (C or D) prints and the sheet that matches above is rev J. I don't have an easy way of scanning paper that large so they aren't online. > The ECO added KEY_LAEXDEP_L to the NAND, which required the M117 instead > of the M113. > Do you have ECO information for the machine? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 26 14:14:18 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:14:18 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <503A758A.9070401@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/26/2012 6:15 AM, Richard wrote: NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! > > Then where are you going to get system power? > > You can't draw it from the monitor connection. > > You can't draw it from the keyboard or the mouse. > > You can't draw it from RS-232. > Try using the the wall plug for power... Mind you I am not sure one can run a cord out of a box any more, with all the legal stuff nowadays. Ben. From vrs at msn.com Sun Aug 26 14:14:48 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:14:48 -0700 Subject: Need Older PDP-8/I Schematics In-Reply-To: <20120826172959.GA19891@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20120826172959.GA19891@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: From: David Gesswein: Sunday, August 26, 2012 10:29 AM >> The ECO added KEY_LAEXDEP_L to the NAND, which required the M117 instead >> of the M113. >> > Do you have ECO information for the machine? You may have been asking Michael, but I'll pretend you were asking me about the 8/I in general :-). Only in the sense that I have "diffed" the schematics (manually) and noted the ECO history in the little box at the bottom. The notes I have say that this must have been all or part of either 8i-00002 or 8i-00020. Which is to say, this and a change to a pull-up are the only changes to this sheet, and the only new ECOs listed for this version of this sheet are #2 and #20. Since the pull-up is just +3V(69), which is new to the gate change, both changes probably belong to the same ECO, but I can't tell which number. (The other number may well refer to a routing change that wouldn't show on the schematic.) I have 30 ECO numbers referenced, ranging for 00001 to 00099. Of those, I have identified only 2 to the point of knowing what exact change was made and why. Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 14:10:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 20:10:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: <503958DC.3050605@verizon.net> from "allison" at Aug 25, 12 06:59:40 pm Message-ID: > >>> In theory you could replace the boot ROM (desolder the 8041, read > >>> its > >>> contents, and burn an 8741 with the new boot image. Or even an 8742, > >>> if you wanted more than 256 bytes of boot program). In the 9512 it > >>> would be even easier, because the corresponding microcontroller used > >>> an external ROM. > >> Hmmm. Tony seems to think that the boot code resided in the ASIC, > >> but that would have been the difficult way to go about it. > > That is what I was told by one of the designers at Amstrad. > > > > Using the 8041 as a boot ROM would be problematic IMHO. There could be > > code i nthere to preset the boot ROM bytes one at a time on a noraml read > > cycle I suppose -- i nfact that could eb why the PROG pin is conencted to > > a signal o nteh SIC alled NBOOT. Readign the ROM directly involves > > overvoltaging one of the 8041 pins, I can't eee the circuitry to do that. > > That would be insane as 8041 was a 1Kb (code space) embedded micro with > and trivial IO port designed as a intelligent IO device. Boot code there I agree. I don't believe (at hte moment, I am open to evidence) that the Amstrad PCW bootstrap code is i nthe pritner controller. > would have to be small and the main system would still need a boot to get > the code out as the 8041 could not be a bus master > (it could be a DMA target/source). I thought for a momnen that perhaps the Z80 wasn't involved in booting the mahcine, and that hardwired logic in the gae array set up the FDC, read i na sector, and wrote the data to RAM. After all, the FDC and the system DRAM are both connected to the gate array. But I don't think that can happen. The problem is that the A) input (register select) and the CS/ input (conencted to A7 fo the Z80 address bus) are both conencted to the Z80 address lines. While those lines are lso conencted to the gate array, there doesn't seem to be any way for force the Z80 to 3-state them, sicne the gate array doesn't drive the BUSRQ/ signal. So it looks like the Z80 must run bootstrap code that sets up the FDC, reads a secotr, and writes it to RAM. That's a fairly simple program, and it could easily be done with hardwired logic simulating a ROM inside that gate array. I would think that would be a lot easier than trying to run code stored in an 8041 ROM. > > One can be creative but that seems like the hard way to get things done and > every system I've seen that has the 8041 used all the code space to do more > useful things (printers, keyboard scanning or IO for examples). SSure. The PCW uses an 8041 (maybe an 8042, all I have is the Amstrad part number) to control the standard dot-matrix printer. This chip sits o nthe Z80 bus, the port liens go to the printer conenctor. The pritner itslf is essentaiall jsut driver cirucits. The main parts o nthe lgoic board of the PCW are : Z80A processor, a custom gate array chip, 256K or 512K DRAM, a 765 FDC chipop and data separator and this pritner controller 8041. The gate array handles DRAM timing and refresh, video genreation, the serial interfave to the keyboard (clock + data line, the keyboarsd has an 8048 or something in it), etc. And I believe it contains the boot code. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 14:25:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 20:25:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Aug 26, 12 06:15:36 am Message-ID: > > > In article <50398F0F.7070608 at jetnet.ab.ca>, > ben writes: > > > On 8/25/2012 6:03 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > I would think that a modern terminal emulator would be a small box that: > > > > > > - used USB for keyboard and/or mouse > > > - used VGA or HDMI output to a monitor for display > > > - supported true DTR/CTS handshaking > > > - open source hardware design and firmware > > > - 9V wall wart supply > > > - SD card for storage/printer capture > > > > NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! > > Then where are you going to get system power? > > You can't draw it from the monitor connection. > > You can't draw it from the keyboard or the mouse. > > You can't draw it from RS-232. He said 'No more wall warts'. Nothing about not haing an internal linear or SMPSU with a normal power cable plugging into the mains :-) -tony From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Aug 26 14:35:24 2012 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 15:35:24 -0400 Subject: New S100 mini front panel project Message-ID: Fellow vintage computing hobbyists -- Don Caprio and I have been working for a few months on a project that's an S-100 card size front panel. Styled after common front panels from the day, it's scaled to fit a standard S-100 card format (5.3" x 10") and includes the usual switches and blinkenlights. Eventually we will open-up the project page (http://fpmini.pbworks.com/w/page/39529866/FP%20Mini) once we clean it up a bit. We just received the latest prototype boards and are going to be building and testing them shortly. We're planning on selling boards and possibly a "switch package" that are miniaturized versions of IMSAI-style paddle switches from NKK. Our goal is to get enough orders to get the board cost down to the $20-25 range. We're also trying to work a deal on switch sets. Although the base of the required switches are pretty common, the bat handle colors aren't (blue and red) and require large minimum order quantities. This is something we're trying to work through with the vendor. In volume, we expect that a full switch set will be in the [$100] range or possibly lower. More info to come on this. So that we can get an idea as to how many boards we may need to make during the initial production run, we'd like to gauge people's interest. There is no commitment at this point ? only an expression of general interest so we can gauge demand and board order quantities. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list and I'll keep your emails handy. You can also check out the project page (shown above) to get updates. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Aug 26 15:52:51 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:52:51 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <503A8CA3.7050002@verizon.net> On 08/26/2012 12:45 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 05:12 PM 8/25/2012, allison wrote: > >> Yes, I know, I even have a PDP-8 with 24KW of core. However TSS-8 >> and OS/8 had many hacks >> that allowed things that were, uhm, unsupported. ;] > > I'm not so sure about that. Let's look at the OS/8 requirement of 8K > and see what we could 'hack' to make it fit in 4K. > That's not possible because the User Service Routine (USR) entry point > is at field 1, location 7700. You can't just move that, as every > program using OS/8 would have to be rewritten to know where it's > located. (Not to mention relocating the Command Decoder tables, date > word, etc.) > The hack wasn't fitting OS/8 into 4k it was making TSS-8 give up 8K. > So you can't run OS/8 in less than 8KW. (P?S/8 perhaps could.). How > about hacking TSS-8 so that it handles 8KW programs so OS/8 can run? I > suppose it's possible, but it would require a massive restructuring of > the TSS-8 RMON to permit linking two memory fields together so they're > swapped in as a unit, plus adding code to support an OS/8 filesystem. > There's just no room in TSS-8 to permit that much code. > P?S/8 could do more. > This isn't just speculation - my first job at DEC was in the group > that supported TSS/8. I've seen the effort necessary to do much > simpler things given the memory available - for example, replacing the > RF08 code with code to support an RK8E/RK05 as the system disk took > major bit bumming to fit. Similarly the code to support the KL8-A > four-line serial multiplexer that I wrote was hard to jam in. There's > just no room. Adding the equivalent of the OS/8 USR (which handles the > file systems and takes up memory from 10000 through 11777 in OS/8) > would be quite an accomplishment. > Old millrat here too. > I'm sure that you're confusing TSS-8 with ETOS or MULTOS/8, probably > the latter. > Never used ETOS or MULTOS/8 >> I keep a few DM-IIIs handy to run the bastard stepchild OS/278 as well. > > Yeah, and that "bastard stepchild" problem is part of why CP/M has a > slight edge over OS/8: > ;) Still fun to play with. >> The only advances that CP/M brought was the concept of OS independent >> BIOS for hardware >> abstraction, > > If OS/8 had use something like the BIOS for console interaction, > something like OS/278 with everything patched to support the DM-III's > broken console device wouldn't have been necessary. Fix it in the > "BIOS", not in every user utility program. > The console IO for PDP-8 is far more trivial and only a few words. CP/M added command line editing. >> a scatter/gather file system that didn't need to be compacted to >> allow for files >> larger than the largest contiguous unoccupied block and a set of APIs >> while not large were >> adequate. Oh, and it was cheap and cheap enough that if your media >> was supported or >> allowed for SSSD 8" then the OS was port-able, and applications could >> be portable. > > I'm not arguing that CP/M was a major leap from what OS/8 gave you. > What OS/8 does with a really tiny memory footprint (just two pages of > permanently resident memory used) was damn impressive. > -Rick > Relative to OS/8 CP/M is small, If the bios is of the MDS800 sized it all fits in less than 7K. Thats the BIOS(typically under 1.5K in simple systems, can be overlaid), BDOS(3.5K and overlayable) and CCP (2k and overlayable), If you treat the bios as the resident portion 2K for 8080/z80 is not much. Allison From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 26 16:04:21 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 17:04:21 -0400 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <991DBF8E-AC16-4AF3-AAAC-9A003594606B@me.com> I can understand why people go for them. It's a convenient, commonly available supply, and by using it you can eschew the expense of UL/CSA testing. What we really need, IMO, is to accept that a large quantity of stuff runs on DC. I know there's a number of ham radio guys who use anderson powerpole connectors and you can buy what is basically the DC equivalent of a powerbar. On 2012-08-25, at 10:50 PM, ben wrote: > > NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! > Ben. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 26 16:30:55 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:30:55 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503A8CA3.7050002@verizon.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> <503A8CA3.7050002@verizon.net> Message-ID: <503A958F.5020806@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > P?S/8 could do more. So I've always heard. But how can one get P?S/8? From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Aug 26 17:43:45 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:43:45 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503A958F.5020806@brouhaha.com> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> <503A8CA3.7050002@verizon.net> <503A958F.5020806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <503AA6A1.3090901@verizon.net> On 08/26/2012 05:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > allison wrote: >> P?S/8 could do more. > > So I've always heard. But how can one get P?S/8? > > Haven't seen it in years. wish I had it. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 26 17:56:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:56:03 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503AA6A1.3090901@verizon.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> <503A8CA3.7050002@verizon.net> <503A958F.5020806@brouhaha.com> <503AA6A1.3090901@verizon.net> Message-ID: <503AA983.1090904@neurotica.com> On 08/26/2012 06:43 PM, allison wrote: >> allison wrote: >>> P?S/8 could do more. >> >> So I've always heard. But how can one get P?S/8? > > Haven't seen it in years. wish I had it. Wasn't that a CJL project? Surely he has it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 26 19:11:03 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 17:11:03 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <503ABB17.7010709@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/12 9:45 AM, Rick Murphy wrote: > This isn't just speculation - my first job at DEC was in the group that supported TSS/8. I've seen the effort necessary to do much simpler things given the memory available - for example, replacing > the RF08 code with code to support an RK8E/RK05 as the system disk took major bit bumming to fit. Similarly the code to support the KL8-A four-line serial multiplexer that I wrote was hard to jam in. > There's just no room. Adding the equivalent of the OS/8 USR (which handles the file systems and takes up memory from 10000 through 11777 in OS/8) would be quite an accomplishment. > silly to ask, but you don't still have the RK05 version, do you? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 19:34:54 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 17:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relatively recent IBM crt monitor conundrum Message-ID: <1346027694.15085.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> it's just bugging me. They may not have used them for close to 10 years, but I always used to see these relatively large, I think, 17" IBM monitors at the customer service desk at Walmarts (here in NJ anyway). I don't believe I've seen them anywhere else. Anyone have a clue as to the specifics? From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Aug 26 20:04:03 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:04:03 -0400 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503ABB17.7010709@bitsavers.org> References: <503658A5.9080900@verizon.net> <20120824115722.GA5108@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <50379A3F.1010702@verizon.net> <201208250922.q7P9MZ9q016519@rickmurphy.net> <5038D05C.5030805@verizon.net> <5038F120.2090509@bitsavers.org> <50393FD6.3090403@verizon.net> <201208261645.q7QGjOw0016674@rickmurphy.net> <503ABB17.7010709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201208270104.q7R143rC030983@rickmurphy.net> At 08:11 PM 8/26/2012, Al Kossow wrote: >On 8/26/12 9:45 AM, Rick Murphy wrote: > >>This isn't just speculation - my first job at DEC was in the group >>that supported TSS/8. I've seen the effort necessary to do much >>simpler things given the memory available - for example, replacing >>the RF08 code with code to support an RK8E/RK05 as the system disk >>took major bit bumming to fit. Similarly the code to support the >>KL8-A four-line serial multiplexer that I wrote was hard to jam in. >>There's just no room. Adding the equivalent of the OS/8 USR (which >>handles the file systems and takes up memory from 10000 through 11777 >>in OS/8) would be quite an accomplishment. > >silly to ask, but you don't still have the RK05 version, do you? No, unfortunately. That's something I really regret as there was no easy way to get stuff off my PDP-8 in a portable form. It wasn't trivial to get the RK05 to work as an alternative since TSS-8 assumes a disk device that can be read or written a word at a time. I/O that wasn't sector sized or sector aligned had to be buffered and copied out to the real memory locations. I gave away my PDP-8, disk packs and all, when I got married. I don't think I should say much more than that. :) -Rick From cube1 at charter.net Sun Aug 26 21:04:45 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:04:45 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 3 front panel levers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503AD5BD.8020504@charter.net> Just in case.... I have a Nova 3 as well, in my garage. It has its switch levers, but I have no spares. I do have an Eclipse S/130 spare front panel, which I expect has the exact same lever configuration (though perhaps not the same number of switches - I can check that out tomorrow), but its switch levers are blue (I suppose you could paint them, or I could lend you one from either machine so you could model it and have someone make you some using a 3D printer). I don't know how hard the levers are to separate from the switch at this point. If I can remove one safely without TOO much difficulty, I'd be more than happy to make some scans, tracings, photos, etc., if no better alternative surfaces. On 8/25/2012 3:41 AM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello. > I have a Data General Nova 3 computer, unfortunately the front panel > is missing all of the yellow plastic levers. > Anybody has some spare to sell at reasonable price? > In the case I cannot find the original levers, I could try to realize > a mold to reproduce it using model-casting resins. > I would need however some kind of mechanical drawings, or also some > good picture made together with a ruler, so dimensions > can be somehow measured on the picture itself. > An idea could be to use a scanner as imaging device, as it will not > deform the image, and to scan the lever, specially on the side. > Anybody can help? > Thanks in advance > Andrea > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 26 21:12:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:12:20 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/12 10:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 > > for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer with 7" LCD > > What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when I have to stick > something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks like this will work just fine > with a USB serial dongle. > here are the instructions for installing Linux on it http://kernelhacks.blogspot.com/2012/06/arch-linux-on-wm8650-netbook.html From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 21:29:32 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:29:32 -0500 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503ADB8C.5040702@gmail.com> On 08/25/2012 04:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QX10. Interesting hardware >>> at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, etc. >> >> I have a QX-10 on the desk here beside me; it really is a lovely machine >> (despite the plastic case; somehow I always think that 'real' computers > > I am not overly in love wit hthe design of the case. From what I remember > the floppy drives are fixed to the cover, you have to lift it a little > way and then unplug the data and poweer cables to get the case apart. But > I cna tolerate it. It's the separate grounding strap (at least mine has one) which is the pain, because it means flipping the whole upper part of the case over to unscrew it - unplugging power and data can be done (as you say) by just lifting the case a bit. (I wonder if some releases simply have no strap, or have a tag screwed to the drive cable that the strap can easily be unplugged from) >> should have metal cases). And yes, those drives are great (although I had >> to clean/strip the eject mechanisms on mine; I suspect they're prone to > > I stripped mine when I first got the machine, cleaned everything and id a > full alignment. Be warned that strippign the positioner is not recomended Yes, I figured I wouldn't mess with the positioner unless I had to :) >> sticking with age). I'm still looking for an Epson dot-matrix printer of >> some flavor to complete mine (and some add-on cards would be nice) > > I think oyu must be the only person here _not_ to have an Epson dot > matrix printer :-). Theyr are easy to find. Finding HPIB and HPIL > interfacea for them (either is needed for the QX10, of course, but they > do both exist) is rather harder. Well, to put it better, they're impossible (so far) to find within picking-up distance, which means paying shipping costs for one - I pretty much am in the middle of nowhere! I'd like one at some stage, but I haven't quite ruled out one turning up locally[1] yet. One day I may just have to bite the bullet an pay to have one shipped to me. [1] oddly, one of the local car parts stores - not long opened, either - has one, but I couldn't see what model; I can understand a pre-existing store perhaps having one, but I was a little surprised that for new businesses there wasn't some more recent alternative. I did get the HI-80 plotter with mine, but of course with pens that are long dried up (and a bit of experimenting with engineering alternatives hasn't found me the right combination of pen body and ink consistency yet). >> Did you do anything to modify the airflow on yours? I think I read >> somewhere that they were prone to filling up with dust due to the lack of >> filter and fan direction. > > No, I don;'t run it enough for that to be a problem. I open it up and > clean it from time to time anyway. I suspect that's what I'll do, too; IIRC the fan won't turn around to change the airflow direction, but I did wonder about adding a filter (and perhaps even swapping the fan for a different one, if I could do so non-destructively) >>> Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein? It runs soemthing called >>> XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same). >> >> I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder >> how common "almost CP/M" variants were... > > Didn't Torch call it 'CPN' (or was it 'CP/N')? Hmm, you may be right - I don't have any docs with me in order to check. I've got a partial list of what floppies I have in UK storage, and it seems to vary on the disk labels - some are CPN and some CP/N. cheers Jules From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 21:27:27 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:27:27 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> On 8/26/2012 7:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/26/12 10:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 >> >> for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer with 7" LCD >> >> What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when >> I have to stick >> something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks like this >> will work just fine >> with a USB serial dongle. >> > > here are the instructions for installing Linux on it > > http://kernelhacks.blogspot.com/2012/06/arch-linux-on-wm8650-netbook.html Those generic USB to serial dongles are a nightmare when working with old gear. If you just need a terminal grab an old Pentium laptop with a real DB9 serial port. It will save you headaches and a possible point of failure. Cost even less too. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 26 21:34:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:34:43 -0400 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> On 08/26/2012 10:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 >>> >>> for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer with 7" LCD >>> >>> What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when >>> I have to stick >>> something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks like this >>> will work just fine >>> with a USB serial dongle. >>> >> >> here are the instructions for installing Linux on it >> >> http://kernelhacks.blogspot.com/2012/06/arch-linux-on-wm8650-netbook.html > > Those generic USB to serial dongles are a nightmare when working with > old gear. How so? I use them most every day to talk to classic systems, have for years, never had a problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 21:42:37 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:42:37 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> On 8/26/2012 7:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > How so? I use them most every day to talk to classic systems, have for > years, never had a problem. -Dave I do a lot. They don't always handle flow control or hardware null modem setups right. Drivers are hit and miss and never updated. If you can even find the drivers. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 26 21:47:28 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:47:28 -0400 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503ADFC0.3070407@neurotica.com> On 08/26/2012 10:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/26/2012 7:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> How so? I use them most every day to talk to classic systems, have for >> years, never had a problem. -Dave > > I do a lot. They don't always handle flow control or hardware null modem > setups right. Drivers are hit and miss and never updated. If you can > even find the drivers. Oh. I've not run into such problems, but likely mostly because I work primarily with DEC systems, and flow control is almost never an issue in that world. As far as drivers, I don't use crappy cheap ones. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Aug 26 22:20:40 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:20:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/26/2012 7:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> How so? I use them most every day to talk to classic systems, have for >> years, never had a problem. -Dave > > I do a lot. They don't always handle flow control or hardware null modem > setups right. Drivers are hit and miss and never updated. If you can even > find the drivers. Actually, adapters that use the FTDI FT232 are true serial ports (with hardware flow control) and those work very very well. Drivers are also not an issue. We just had a discussion about these starting with Fred Cisin's message from Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:25:56 -0700. http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2012-August/thread.html#321439 http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/ICs/FT232B.htm From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Aug 26 22:56:11 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 23:56:11 -0400 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28B0CA82-80A2-4DD5-87C3-4C1BF3665D9C@me.com> There's a certain breed of PIC microcontroller programmer that relies on 12v signals on RS232 to provide enough voltage to trigger the programming. The USB to serial chips I've seen so far are all 5v, thus they can't power such programmers. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-08-26, at 11:20 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 26 Aug 2012, mc68010 wrote: >> On 8/26/2012 7:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> How so? I use them most every day to talk to classic systems, have for years, never had a problem. -Dave >> >> I do a lot. They don't always handle flow control or hardware null modem setups right. Drivers are hit and miss and never updated. If you can even find the drivers. > > Actually, adapters that use the FTDI FT232 are true serial ports (with hardware flow control) and those work very very well. Drivers are also not an issue. We just had a discussion about these starting with Fred Cisin's message from Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:25:56 -0700. > > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2012-August/thread.html#321439 > > http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/ICs/FT232B.htm From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Aug 26 22:59:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 23:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201208270359.XAA00601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Actually, adapters that use the FTDI FT232 [...]. Drivers are also > not an issue. Well, it depends. Provided the host you're connecting them to is one of the major, or even middling-to-large minor, OSes, you're probably OK. But as far as I can tell there is no documentation on the host-to-chip interface except for existing driver code; the Linux and NetBSD drivers include comments indicating that they were written based on direct assistance from FTDI staff rather than from documentation. So if you're doing something unusual, like trying to use them from the bare metal, or with an experimental fringe OS - basically, something not big enough to get FTDI's attention - you may be better off with a chip that implements the async serial device class, which _is_ documented, instead. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Aug 26 23:20:09 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: identification Message-ID: Can anyone identify any of these unidentified computers at http://starringthecomputer.com/help.php? Sometime a year or two ago we identified a bunch. Let's try it again. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 23:27:17 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 23:27:17 -0500 Subject: identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i see a phillips p1000 http://starringthecomputer.com/help/rollerball.jpg On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:20 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Can anyone identify any of these unidentified computers at > http://starringthecomputer.**com/help.php? > Sometime a year or two ago we identified a bunch. Let's try it again. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 27 01:40:21 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 01:40:21 -0500 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120826095809.K77980@shell.lmi.net> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com> <20120826095809.K77980@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503B1655.5060106@jbrain.com> On 8/26/2012 12:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Microsoft then proceeded with an unauthorized port of CP/M to 8086/8088 > (QDOS from SCP). Can you cite some sources for this position? Sources I have note that Patterson wrote a new OS to go with the Seattle Computer Products 8086 kit and used CP/Ms API to aid in porting apps, but the internals were significantly different. If true, I'm not sure I'd call that a "port". If so, then Linux is a "port" of BSD or ATT UNIX. > Somebody else might think that the most important "change" was "Long > Filenames", even though it was NOT implemented, merely a system of using > up FPDEs to store long NICKNAMES, such that FILENA~1 filename could be > linked to "Filname of file that contains the content and data of all of > the important stuff", and getting "DISK FULL" messages on an almost empty > disk because the root directory had been filled up with file nicknames, > instead of files. Dunno, I'd call it "implemented". In fact, I think it well defines the contemporary "kludge". It was (and is) a masterful use of an existing structure to add a significant piece of functionality. I had to "implement" it in the FAT library used by sd2iec, and I was very impressed. Not that it would ever be used on a floppy disk, but FAT32 did remove the 512 FPDE limit in the root dir. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 27 01:48:27 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:48:27 +0200 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <28B0CA82-80A2-4DD5-87C3-4C1BF3665D9C@me.com> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> <28B0CA82-80A2-4DD5-87C3-4C1BF3665D9C@me.com> Message-ID: <20120827084827.8eee6d5b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 23:56:11 -0400 Paul Anderson wrote: > There's a certain breed of PIC microcontroller programmer that relies > on 12v signals on RS232 to provide enough voltage to trigger the > programming. > The USB to serial chips I've seen so far are all 5v, thus they can't > power such programmers. RS232 does not provide power. If you missuse it and draw power from it you have to be prepared for failure. RS232 is specified from 3..15 V (5..15 V) thus 12 V is a false assumption anyway. So that PIC programmer seems to be cheap shit that big-bangs signals. Perhaps time to get a proper tool for that job? ;-) There is one serious flaw I encountered with USB RS232 adapters: They can't generate a serial break. This may be a fault of the adapter hardware or a bug in the OS driver. (OS is NetBSD.) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 03:03:09 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:03:09 +0100 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of mc68010 > Sent: 27 August 2012 03:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator > > > On 8/26/2012 7:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 8/26/12 10:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 > >> > >> for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer > with 7" LCD > >> > >> What I was looking for was something really small to lug > around when > >> I have to stick > >> something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks like this > >> will work just fine > >> with a USB serial dongle. > >> > > > > here are the instructions for installing Linux on it > > > > > http://kernelhacks.blogspot.com/2012/06/arch-linux-on-wm8650-netbook.h > > tml > > Those generic USB to serial dongles are a nightmare when working with > old gear. If you just need a terminal grab an old Pentium > laptop with a > real DB9 serial port. It will save you headaches and a > possible point of > failure. Cost even less too. > > Old Pentium Laptops can also be a nightmare. I quite like some of the older thin terminals like the NEOWARE. These are pretty cheap:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230835650095 and if you tweak the software they can be made very dumb. They actually have a serial port but I have never tried to use one to connect to a real system. Also watch if you want 3270 software as some have it and some don't. Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 15:53:03 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:53:03 -0400 Subject: Need Older PDP-8/I Schematics Message-ID: > From: Vincent Slyngstad > Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 02:00:35 -0700 > Subject: Re: Need Older PDP-8/I Schematics >> >> We are debugging an interrupt problem with the PDP-8/I at the RICM. >> Today we found that the INT RQST signal is not routed through the M117 >> module in slot F11 as shown on page 7 in the >> PDP8-I_CPU_blueprints_1969.pdf. >> >> Does anyone have a set of prints where page 7 is older than revision L? > > > Yes. I have a schematic in which INT_RQST goes to F21D1, F_SET goes to F21E1, and the result from F21F1 goes to the flip-flop at E33J1. > > The ECO added KEY_LAEXDEP_L to the NAND, which required the M117 instead > of the M113. > > The PDF is called "dec-8i-hr2a-d-pr (PDP8i Schematics -- OLD).pdf" on my box, but I'm not sure where I got it. > > Ah. I found it here: > http://pdp-8.org/scans/highgate/pdp8i-docs/dec-8i-hr2a-d-pr.pdf > > Hope that helps! > > Vince Perfect. Thanks! -- Michael Thompson From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 26 16:43:42 2012 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:43:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: from "cctech-request@classiccmp.org" at Aug 26, 2012 12:00:01 pm GMT Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > Using the 8041 as a boot ROM would be problematic IMHO. There could be > code i nthere to preset the boot ROM bytes one at a time on a noraml read > cycle I suppose -- i nfact that could eb why the PROG pin is conencted to > a signal o nteh SIC alled NBOOT. Readign the ROM directly involves > overvoltaging one of the 8041 pins, I can't eee the circuitry to do that. Jacob Nevins describes the boot process as the Z80 sees it, here: Here's the code the 8041 executes at startup: mov r2, #6 ;6 byte prefix mov r0, #prefix call data2z80 mov r1, #0 write_data: mov a, #0edh call byte2z80 mov a, #0a0h ;LDI call byte2z80 mov a, r1 movp3 a, @a ;Followed by the byte to write inc r1 call byte2z80 djnz r2, write_data mov r2, #5 ;5 byte suffix call data2z80 jmp mainloop ;Start doing printer control things. ; data2z80: mov a, r0 movp a, @a ;Next byte to send to the Z80 inc r0 call byte2z80 ;Transmit it djnz r2, data2z80 ret ; byte2z80: jobf byte2z80 ;Wait for Z80 to read the buffer out dbb, a ;Set the byte to write mov a, #0ffh anld p7, a ret ; ; 6-byte prefix: ; prefix: db 0AFh ; XOR A db 0D3h, 0F0h ; OUT (0F0H), A ;Page in RAM at 0000 db 11h, 02h, 00h ; LD DE, 2 ;Start writing data at 2 ; ; 5-byte suffix: ; db 0C3h, 0, 0 ; JP 0 ;Jump to the boot image in RAM db 0D3h, 0F8h ; OUT (0F8h), A ;And stop reading bytes from ;the 8041 -- John Elliott From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 27 04:38:43 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 02:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSDD in a Kaypro II Message-ID: I have a Kaypro II whos previous owner swapped the two full-height drives for a pair of half-height units and made the resulting space into a cubbyhole for disks and other things. Last time I had a good look at it, I thought the drives were double-sided. Was it possible to get double-sided drives to work with the Kaypro II? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Aug 27 06:38:21 2012 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:38:21 +1000 Subject: Not so classic Compaq keyboard help Message-ID: <000e01cd8448$75edc180$61c94480$@on.net> Apologies if this is not classic enough :-) Very quick story - I'm a rather eclectic collector and have a range of very nice early Compaq server gear (couple of servers, a KVM and a hub etc) which go back a way and thought it would all look good sitting in a rack. Recently got lucky and picked up a Compaq rack for free. More recently got even luckier and a friend said her work was throwing out some stuff including a keyboard in a tray. I said I'd have it (like any collector, without knowing exactly what it was - better I have it than its find its way into a bin) - turned out to be a Compaq keyboard (158649-001) in a 1U rack mount keyboard tray - bonus. But when they removed it from the rack instead of removing it gracefully they just cut the cable. Grrrrr - how often does that happen when people are "removing" stuff! The keyboard has a single cable coming out of it with a Y piece that's splits into to 2 PS2 plugs. They cut off the Y piece and the plugs so I'm left with a single cable and no ends. Have been scouring the net for quite a while looking for any specific info on this keyboard to see if I can repair it but no joy. Be most grateful if anyone can point me somewhere I may not have covered. Thank you!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 27 09:46:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:46:53 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > FEATURES: > > iMX233 ARM926J processor at 454Mhz > 64 MB RAM > SD-card connector for booting the Linux image > TV PAL/NTSC video output Don't need/want PAL/NTSC. 64 MB of ram? Massive overkill. Linux image? Massive overkill. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 27 09:51:10 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:51:10 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <503A5812.6090701 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > The problem is you can't find something for 1/3 the price to get 1/3 of the > hardware True, mass produced stuff has it's own momentum. > What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when I have > to stick > something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks like this will work > just fine > with a USB serial dongle. Maybe just a dongle you can plug into an android phone, then. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 27 09:55:36 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:55:36 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503A758A.9070401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <50398F0F.7070608@jetnet.ab.ca> <503A758A.9070401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <503A758A.9070401 at jetnet.ab.ca>, ben writes: > On 8/26/2012 6:15 AM, Richard wrote: > NO MORE WALL WARTS !!!! > > > > Then where are you going to get system power? > > > > You can't draw it from the monitor connection. > > > > You can't draw it from the keyboard or the mouse. > > > > You can't draw it from RS-232. > > Try using the the wall plug for power... Mind you I am not sure > one can run a cord out of a box any more, with all the legal stuff > nowadays. That's insane. The power supply would be 3x larger than the project enclosure. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 27 10:27:30 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:27:30 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <503B91E2.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/27/2012 8:46 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, > Jochen Kunz writes: > >> FEATURES: >> >> iMX233 ARM926J processor at 454Mhz >> 64 MB RAM >> SD-card connector for booting the Linux image >> TV PAL/NTSC video output > > Don't need/want PAL/NTSC. > 64 MB of ram? Massive overkill. > Linux image? Massive overkill. > Sounds like a good platform to emulate your old computers. Port simh to ROM and you have it made. Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 10:30:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:30:59 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <20120827084827.8eee6d5b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> <28B0CA82-80A2-4DD5-87C3-4C1BF3665D9C@me.com> <20120827084827.8eee6d5b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <503B92B3.6050400@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/12 11:48 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > There is one serious flaw I encountered with USB RS232 adapters: > They can't generate a serial break. > I was thinking on the drive in about the old smart cables, It would be interesting to take an AVR with USB interface and make a serial dongle that would sense if the other end is driving pin 2 or 3, then flip the direction of the signals appropriately. It could also handle RTS/CTS or CTL-S/CTL-Q handshaking directly and generate a serial break. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 27 10:36:51 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:36:51 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503B91E2.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503B91E2.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <503B91E2.2030406 at jetnet.ab.ca>, ben writes: > Sounds like a good platform to emulate your old computers. Congratulations! You win today's non sequitur award. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 27 10:47:57 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:47:57 -0600 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503B91E2.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <503B96AD.1010307@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/27/2012 9:36 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article <503B91E2.2030406 at jetnet.ab.ca>, > ben writes: > >> Sounds like a good platform to emulate your old computers. > > Congratulations! You win today's non sequitur award. > Do I get the card! ... ??? Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 11:31:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503B1655.5060106@jbrain.com> References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> <50399A4E.60104@ubanproductions.com> <20120826095809.K77980@shell.lmi.net> <503B1655.5060106@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20120827090853.P8156@shell.lmi.net> > > Microsoft then proceeded with an unauthorized port of CP/M to 8086/8088 > > (QDOS from SCP). On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > Can you cite some sources for this position? Sources I have note that > Patterson wrote a new OS to go with the Seattle Computer Products 8086 > kit and used CP/Ms API to aid in porting apps, but the internals were > significantly different. If true, I'm not sure I'd call that a "port". > If so, then Linux is a "port" of BSD or ATT UNIX. I will concede that "port" is a poor choice of terms. Patterson wrote it as a placeholder. The intent was that they would go to CP/M-86 when that was ready, and QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") was intended as a temporary substitute until then. So, I'm hesitant to call it a "new OS" > > Somebody else might think that the most important "change" was "Long > > Filenames", even though it was NOT implemented, merely a system of using > > up FPDEs to store long NICKNAMES, such that FILENA~1 filename could be > > linked to "Filname of file that contains the content and data of all of > > the important stuff", and getting "DISK FULL" messages on an almost empty > > disk because the root directory had been filled up with file nicknames, > > instead of files. > Dunno, I'd call it "implemented". In fact, I think it well defines the > contemporary "kludge". It was (and is) a masterful use of an existing > structure to add a significant piece of functionality. I had to > "implement" it in the FAT library used by sd2iec, and I was very impressed. I'd call it an implementation of "long File nicknames", NOT an implementation of "Long File Names". Clever, but it sits on top of a complete and functional set of FILENAMEs, rather than replacing it with one without a length limitation, which is why I insist on calling it "file nicknames" V "implementation of long filenames". Rather than using FPDEs, I would much prefer that the system allocate a cluster, thus not taking DIRectory space, and permitting further expansion of it as needed. > Not that it would ever be used on a floppy disk, but FAT32 did remove > the 512 FPDE limit in the root dir. That certainly helps those who abuse the root directory. Q: Why isn't C:\Windows\System32 at least broken up into categories? NOT due to number of FPDEs: On of those people that work with Had a full 480M drive. He replace it with a 514M drive, and the larger drive couldn't hold the contents of the smaller drive. The answer revolves around the number 512M. Why? What could he do to get the old content onto the drive and maybe get some of the additional capacity? (Switching to another OS would not have been feasable for that user) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 11:34:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSDD in a Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120827093216.R8156@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I have a Kaypro II whos previous owner swapped the two full-height drives > for a pair of half-height units and made the resulting space into a > cubbyhole for disks and other things. Last time I had a good look at it, > I thought the drives were double-sided. Was it possible to get > double-sided drives to work with the Kaypro II? I have received DSDD disks that were explicitly stated to have been from a II. When was the official switch to DS? Do the earlier machines need more than a ROM upgrade? (is side-select present?) From alanp at snowmoose.com Mon Aug 27 12:10:55 2012 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 10:10:55 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> On 8/27/12 10:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Jim Brain wrote: >> >Can you cite some sources for this position? Sources I have note that >> >Patterson wrote a new OS to go with the Seattle Computer Products 8086 >> >kit and used CP/Ms API to aid in porting apps, but the internals were >> >significantly different. If true, I'm not sure I'd call that a "port". >> >If so, then Linux is a "port" of BSD or ATT UNIX. > I will concede that "port" is a poor choice of terms. > Patterson wrote it as a placeholder. The intent was that they would go to > CP/M-86 when that was ready, and QDOS ("Quick and Dirty Operating System") > was intended as a temporary substitute until then. So, I'm hesitant to > call it a "new OS" > Could you at least spell Tim's last name correctly? It is 'Paterson'. And a recent code analysis indicates that QDOS was not stolen from CP/M - http://m.spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/did-bill-gates-steal-the-heart-of-dos/0 If he didn't copy it from CP/M, why isn't it a "new OS"? alan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 12:33:08 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 13:33:08 -0400 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503B96AD.1010307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <20120826165251.8e1c4ced.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503B91E2.2030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <503B96AD.1010307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 11:47 AM, ben wrote: > On 8/27/2012 9:36 AM, Richard wrote: >> >> In article <503B91E2.2030406 at jetnet.ab.ca>, >> ben writes: >> >>> Sounds like a good platform to emulate your old computers. >> >> Congratulations! You win today's non sequitur award. >> > Do I get the card! ... ??? Yes, but you have to wrap the wires yourself. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 27 12:48:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 10:48:45 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> References: , <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Aug 2012 at 10:10, Alan Perry wrote: Haven't we been here before? > And a recent code analysis indicates that QDOS was not stolen from CP/M > http://m.spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/did-bill-gates-steal-the > -heart-of-dos/0 That IEEE Spectrum article was so much of a bald attempt by some guy to push his analysis software (I can't even figure out the logic in his method), that as an IEEE member, I was ashamed that such stupidity was published in the flagship publication of the Institute. > If he didn't copy it from CP/M, why isn't it a "new OS"? Having "cloned" the CP/M API myself, I'll say that it would be far more work to disassemble the CP/M object code to implement the API that it would be to simply re-implement the API. Paterson was no idiot. Yes, Paterson did copy the CP/M-80 API, but the CP/M-86 interface is completely different. Note that others copied the API before he did; e.g. TurboDOS, TP/M (used on the Epson QX-10) and several others. I think that even in our litigious time, copying an API is not a crime. I'm not a MS-lover, but I do believe in keeping perspective. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 12:58:40 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 10:58:40 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <503BB550.6080702@bitsavers.org> On 8/27/12 10:48 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think that even in our litigious time, copying an API is not a crime. > So far. Hopfully Oracle will not win on appeal in Oracle vs Google. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 27 13:31:16 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:31:16 +0200 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503B92B3.6050400@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> <28B0CA82-80A2-4DD5-87C3-4C1BF3665D9C@me.com> <20120827084827.8eee6d5b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503B92B3.6050400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120827203116.6b747b89.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:30:59 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > I was thinking on the drive in about the old smart cables, It > would be interesting to take an AVR with USB interface and make > a serial dongle that would sense if the other end is driving > pin 2 or 3, then flip the direction of the signals appropriately. > It could also handle RTS/CTS or CTL-S/CTL-Q handshaking directly > and generate a serial break. All you need for this is readily available. Core USB stack, purly done in software: http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html RS-232C adapter using the USB-CDC protocol based on V-USB: http://www.recursion.jp/avrcdc/ You can do it in a cheap low end AVR that is even considerably cheaper then a FTDI chip. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 13:23:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:23:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503ADB8C.5040702@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 26, 12 09:29:32 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/25/2012 04:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> My favourite CP/M box is, I think, the Epson QX10. Interesting hardware > >>> at least. A 7220 for graphics, those lovely voice-coil floppy drives, etc. > >> > >> I have a QX-10 on the desk here beside me; it really is a lovely machine > >> (despite the plastic case; somehow I always think that 'real' computers > > > > I am not overly in love wit hthe design of the case. From what I remember > > the floppy drives are fixed to the cover, you have to lift it a little > > way and then unplug the data and poweer cables to get the case apart. But > > I cna tolerate it. > > It's the separate grounding strap (at least mine has one) which is the > pain, because it means flipping the whole upper part of the case over to > unscrew it - unplugging power and data can be done (as you say) by just > lifting the case a bit. (I wonder if some releases simply have no strap, or > have a tag screwed to the drive cable that the strap can easily be > unplugged from) Ah yes, I think I remember tjhat now. Given the lack of space on my workbench, I remember hodlign the top case (with the fairly heavy drvies in it) with one and whill fiddlign the screw in wiot hthe other. All to meet FCC ruquirements :-) > > >> should have metal cases). And yes, those drives are great (although I had > >> to clean/strip the eject mechanisms on mine; I suspect they're prone to > > > > I stripped mine when I first got the machine, cleaned everything and id a > > full alignment. Be warned that strippign the positioner is not recomended > > Yes, I figured I wouldn't mess with the positioner unless I had to :) Don't. The official head radial alignment involves moving the positoned on the chassis (I think there's a cam screw fro that). That is fairly easy if you have an alignment disk. But if you strip the positioenr itself, you can have great fun settign it up so that odd and even tracks are equally spaced, for example. But IMHO the spindle motor is worse. Do not strip that unless you really have to. [Epson dot matrix printer] > Well, to put it better, they're impossible (so far) to find within > picking-up distance, which means paying shipping costs for one - I pretty > much am in the middle of nowhere! I'd like one at some stage, but I haven't Ah... That expalisn it. > quite ruled out one turning up locally[1] yet. One day I may just have to > bite the bullet an pay to have one shipped to me. > > [1] oddly, one of the local car parts stores - not long opened, either - > has one, but I couldn't see what model; I can understand a pre-existing > store perhaps having one, but I was a little surprised that for new > businesses there wasn't some more recent alternative. IIRC, such printers are either still being made, or have only recently been discontinued. Their advantaeg is that they will aprt on multi-part (carbon copy) forms, and some businssses still use those. Yes, you could print out 3 separate pages on an inkjet or laser printer in less time, but I guess businesses like the idea that all 3 copies (or whatever) were printed together so they must be the same. > > I did get the HI-80 plotter with mine, but of course with pens that are > long dried up (and a bit of experimenting with engineering alternatives > hasn't found me the right combination of pen body and ink consistency yet). I have one of htose somewhere, I need to find out more about it. And indeed find how to make pens for it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 13:28:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:28:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <991DBF8E-AC16-4AF3-AAAC-9A003594606B@me.com> from "Paul Anderson" at Aug 26, 12 05:04:21 pm Message-ID: > > I can understand why people go for them. It's a convenient, commonly > available supply, and by using it you can eschew the expense of UL/CSA > testing. What we really need, IMO, is to accept that a large quantity of This indicates to me that the whole apporval process is broken (it is over here too). Most wall-warts are not that safe (they do not have proper fusing or other protective decvices, they do not necessrily fail i n safe way). Since approvales don;'t bother me (as a home constructor), I will continue making my own internal PSUs were appropriate. And fusing them correctly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 27 13:31:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:31:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 108, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: from "John Elliott" at Aug 26, 12 10:43:42 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Using the 8041 as a boot ROM would be problematic IMHO. There could be > > code i nthere to preset the boot ROM bytes one at a time on a noraml read > > cycle I suppose -- i nfact that could eb why the PROG pin is conencted to > > a signal o nteh SIC alled NBOOT. Readign the ROM directly involves > > overvoltaging one of the 8041 pins, I can't eee the circuitry to do that. > > Jacob Nevins describes the boot process as the Z80 sees it, here: > RIght, I stand corrected. I was clearly mis-informed by said Amstrad designer. > > Here's the code the 8041 executes at startup: > > mov r2, #6 ;6 byte prefix > mov r0, #prefix > call data2z80 > mov r1, #0 > write_data: > mov a, #0edh > call byte2z80 > mov a, #0a0h ;LDI > call byte2z80 > mov a, r1 > movp3 a, @a ;Followed by the byte to write > inc r1 > call byte2z80 > djnz r2, write_data > mov r2, #5 ;5 byte suffix > call data2z80 > jmp mainloop ;Start doing printer control things. > ; > data2z80: > mov a, r0 > movp a, @a ;Next byte to send to the Z80 > inc r0 > call byte2z80 ;Transmit it > djnz r2, data2z80 > ret > ; > byte2z80: > jobf byte2z80 ;Wait for Z80 to read the buffer > out dbb, a ;Set the byte to write > mov a, #0ffh > anld p7, a > ret > ; > ; 6-byte prefix: > ; > prefix: > db 0AFh ; XOR A > db 0D3h, 0F0h ; OUT (0F0H), A ;Page in RAM at 0000 > db 11h, 02h, 00h ; LD DE, 2 ;Start writing data at 2 > ; > ; 5-byte suffix: > ; > db 0C3h, 0, 0 ; JP 0 ;Jump to the boot image in RAM > db 0D3h, 0F8h ; OUT (0F8h), A ;And stop reading bytes from > ;the 8041 waht casues the Z80 to even look at the 8041 ports? I notice that the gate array chip has complete control over the 8041, and also the Z80 wait line, does it contain a state machine to hold the Z80 in a wait state until the next byte is ready from the 8041, then set the 8041 lines ot do a read from its data register wbich will casue said byte to appear on the system data bus? Seems like a lot of work to me... -tony From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon Aug 27 13:47:42 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 18:47:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator Message-ID: <38544841.933731.1346093262750.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >On 8/26/12 10:08 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 > > for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer with 7" LCD > > What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when I have to stick > something on a serial port in the back of a rack. I haven't been following this thread too closely, but couldn't you use an HP palmtop (HPLX 200 or HPLX 95)? IIRC, Tony does that with an LX95. Screen is smaller than 7", but they are definitely something "really small" and easy to carry. Also, no need for external power, as they use 2 AA batteries. Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 13:49:39 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:49:39 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <20120827203116.6b747b89.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> <28B0CA82-80A2-4DD5-87C3-4C1BF3665D9C@me.com> <20120827084827.8eee6d5b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503B92B3.6050400@bitsavers.org> <20120827203116.6b747b89.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <503BC143.2030309@bitsavers.org> On 8/27/12 11:31 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:30:59 -0700 > Al Kossow wrote: > >> I was thinking on the drive in about the old smart cables, It >> would be interesting to take an AVR with USB interface and make >> a serial dongle that would sense if the other end is driving >> pin 2 or 3, then flip the direction of the signals appropriately. >> It could also handle RTS/CTS or CTL-S/CTL-Q handshaking directly >> and generate a serial break. > All you need for this is readily available. > Core USB stack, purly done in software: > http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html > RS-232C adapter using the USB-CDC protocol based on V-USB: > http://www.recursion.jp/avrcdc/ > You can do it in a cheap low end AVR that is even considerably cheaper > then a FTDI chip. A Maxim MAX214 will handle the DCE/DTE switching part. The other trick is to detect if either RX or TX is being driven externally. If neither is driven, it isn't connected to anything. Just poll until one of the two pins goes active. A couple of small LEDs for monitoring, and you're done.. I've got a bunch of Micropendous boards from another project that I could glue a MAX214 onto. It is about $50 in parts, but it seems like a really useful gadget. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Aug 27 13:53:22 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:53:22 +0200 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503BC222.7040201@bluewin.ch> On 08/26/2012 07:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/26/12 5:12 AM, Richard wrote: >> In article<503972D9.1040509 at bitsavers.org>, >> Al Kossow writes: >> >>> On 8/25/12 5:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >>> >>>> That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi >>> >>> or a oLinuxXino-mini >>> https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-mini.html >> >> Both of those have about 3x the amount of hardware compared to what I >> described. > > The problem is you can't find something for 1/3 the price to get 1/3 of the hardware > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 > > for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer with 7" LCD > > What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when I have to stick > something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks like this will work just fine > with a USB serial dongle. > Old palmpilot ? 2 aaa batteries, serial port... From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 14:44:05 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 12:44:05 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503BC222.7040201@bluewin.ch> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503BC222.7040201@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <503BCE05.90601@bitsavers.org> On 8/27/12 11:53 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Old palmpilot ? no keyboard The ARM based sub-notebooks really do seem ideally suited for this application. LI battery, small, cheap. Add a decent RS232 dongle and a good terminal emulator program with XModem and Kermit, and you're done. Ethernet connectivity is a bonus. Digging around last night, there seems to be a bunch of people hacking on these. The only thing I haven't found yet is the data sheet for the WM8650 processor. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 27 14:44:45 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 12:44:45 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <1671740452-1345752985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1490355845-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120824061244.GA925@zoho.com> <50372ACC.2090502@gorge.net> <5037F85F.3050207@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 5:55 PM, allison wrote: >> I was one of the very early adopters. I got the January 1975 PE... > > Great story, Allison! Thanks for taking the time to share it! > > -ethan > even though it was a persnickety beast I miss the 8800b i helped build and then when i was in highschool brought back to life ( all the tantalum caps on a couple boards had popped like popcorn) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Aug 27 14:45:36 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503BC143.2030309@bitsavers.org> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> <28B0CA82-80A2-4DD5-87C3-4C1BF3665D9C@me.com> <20120827084827.8eee6d5b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503B92B3.6050400@bitsavers.org> <20120827203116.6b747b89.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503BC143.2030309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201208271945.PAA00479@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > A Maxim MAX214 will handle the DCE/DTE switching part. > The other trick is to detect if either RX or TX is being driven > externally. If neither is driven, it isn't connected to anything. That does not necessarily follow. It could, for example, be connected to another port which is using the same trick - this fails the "what if everyone did it?" test. It could even be connected to itself. I ran into such a port once; I shorted pins 2 and 3, got no echo, and concluded the hardware was broken...which it was, I suppose, just not in the way I thought. In short, please don't do this. Or, at the very least, provide an easy way to disable this "feature". Especially for a device whose very raison d'etre is driving a serial port; it is unlikely to spend much time powered up but with no desire to use the serial port, so there's not much to be saved by such a trick. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 14:56:05 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:56:05 +0100 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <503BC222.7040201@bluewin.ch> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503BC222.7040201@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <503BD0D5.9090008@gmail.com> On 27/08/2012 19:53, Jos Dreesen wrote: > On 08/26/2012 07:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 8/26/12 5:12 AM, Richard wrote: >>> In article<503972D9.1040509 at bitsavers.org>, >>> Al Kossow writes: >>> >>>> On 8/25/12 5:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >>>> >>>>> That almost sounds like you are describing a Raspberry Pi >>>> >>>> or a oLinuxXino-mini >>>> https://www.olimex.com/dev/imx233-olinuxino-mini.html >>> >>> Both of those have about 3x the amount of hardware compared to what I >>> described. >> >> The problem is you can't find something for 1/3 the price to get 1/3 >> of the hardware >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190702111630 >> >> for example, is $75 (incl shipping) for a whole computer with 7" LCD >> >> What I was looking for was something really small to lug around when >> I have to stick >> something on a serial port in the back of a rack. Looks like this >> will work just fine >> with a USB serial dongle. >> > > Old palmpilot ? 2 aaa batteries, serial port... > > > I was going to say HP iPaq pocket PC but the serial cables are getting hard to find. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 15:09:58 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 13:09:58 -0700 Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <201208271945.PAA00479@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <503926CB.6090401@bitsavers.org> <503972D9.1040509@bitsavers.org> <503A5812.6090701@bitsavers.org> <503AD784.4080208@bitsavers.org> <503ADB0F.2020500@gmail.com> <503ADCC3.8040008@neurotica.com> <503ADE9D.5000901@gmail.com> <28B0CA82-80A2-4DD5-87C3-4C1BF3665D9C@me.com> <20120827084827.8eee6d5b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503B92B3.6050400@bitsavers.org> <20120827203116.6b747b89.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <503BC143.2030309@bitsavers.org> <201208271945.PAA00479@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <503BD416.10207@bitsavers.org> On 8/27/12 12:45 PM, Mouse wrote: > In short, please don't do this. OK. It probably is better to just show the state of the interface lines on the display, and have a DCE/DTE button. That eliminates the need for LEDs on the dongle as well. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Aug 27 15:16:07 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 13:16:07 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003101cd8490$cb7d0e60$62772b20$@comcast.net> I was a member of the Northwest Computer Society, a Seattle computer club, in the late 1970s and early 1980s. (Tim Paterson was also a member but I had little interaction with him.) Seattle Computer Products gave a presentation of their new 8086 based S100 computer at a meeting in 1979 or 1980. At that time the hardware was ready but Digital Research had not provided an 8086 version of CP/M. Microsoft had used a Seattle Computer Products prototype system to test 8086 BASIC and demo the software at tradeshows. Seattle Computer Products needed an Operating System so Paterson wrote QDOS based on his knowledge of CP/M and Microsoft's BASIC file system. He may have also read some of the "CP/M Internals" articles published in the Northwest Computer Society newsletters. Microsoft's 8080/Z80 software was written for CP/M and Paul Allen thought it would be easier to convert the Apple to Z80 than to convert their software to 6502. ( http://books.google.com/books?id=1Um4zkCCo38C&pg=PA37 ) Tim Paterson was hired as a contractor to design Microsoft's Z80 SoftCard for the Apple II. Here is a quote from the book Fire in the Valley page 329. "They brought in Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer Products, located across Lake Washington, to try to build a card for the Apple that would let it run Microsoft's 8080 and Z80 software. They called it the SoftCard. Paterson did a series of prototypes before Don Burdis took over the project." Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:49 AM To: Alan Perry; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The fall of CP/M? On 27 Aug 2012 at 10:10, Alan Perry wrote: Haven't we been here before? > And a recent code analysis indicates that QDOS was not stolen from > CP/M > http://m.spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/did-bill-gates-steal-the > -heart-of-dos/0 That IEEE Spectrum article was so much of a bald attempt by some guy to push his analysis software (I can't even figure out the logic in his method), that as an IEEE member, I was ashamed that such stupidity was published in the flagship publication of the Institute. > If he didn't copy it from CP/M, why isn't it a "new OS"? Having "cloned" the CP/M API myself, I'll say that it would be far more work to disassemble the CP/M object code to implement the API that it would be to simply re-implement the API. Paterson was no idiot. Yes, Paterson did copy the CP/M-80 API, but the CP/M-86 interface is completely different. Note that others copied the API before he did; e.g. TurboDOS, TP/M (used on the Epson QX-10) and several others. I think that even in our litigious time, copying an API is not a crime. I'm not a MS-lover, but I do believe in keeping perspective. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 15:21:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 13:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> References: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Alan Perry wrote: > Could you at least spell Tim's last name correctly? It is 'Paterson'. Sorry! I'll try to be more careful. (and stop assuming that it is correct in whatever I reply to!) > And a recent code analysis indicates that QDOS was not stolen from CP/M - > http://m.spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/did-bill-gates-steal-the-heart-of-dos/0 > If he didn't copy it from CP/M, why isn't it a "new OS"? 1) It was explicitly acknowledged BY PATERSON to be a copy, although he certainly did not copy any of the internal code. In THOSE days, it would be called "a clean copy". 2) Under the current "taste and smell" level of copyright, it would indeed be considered infringing under the cutrrent INTERPRETATIONS of the law, although not by the "did they copy bytes?" interpretations at the time. Samsung did not "copy bytes" from Apple, but the courts recently ruled that the similarities are infringing. If I create a "PUCKMAN" game, using all original code, that is indistinguishable from the original in use, then under current interpretations, would that be legal? Think back to the Lotus lawsuit that sank Adam Osborne's "Paperback Software". At the time that Paterson wrote QDOS, a "clean-room" copy was considered legal, but was still acknowledged as a "copy". Under current INTERPRETATIONS of the law, it is no longer legal. The LAW wasn't what changed (although there have been some significant changes, such as the Berne Convention), it was the court interpretation. Court interpretation can be "retroactive", whereas laws can not. All that being said, what Paterson did, MAKING A COPY WITHOUT COPYING INTERNAL CODE, was considered acceptable practice at the time. Besides, Gary was not heavy into filing lawsuits; he assumed [incorrectly] that the market would "straighten it out" once both CP/M-86 and MS-DOS were being sold at the same time. As it turns out, the headstart of MS-DOS, and the price differential kept MS-DOS in the lead until it was no longer an issue. When the 5150 first came out, MOST of us said, "I'll use MS-DOS for now, and switch to CP/M-86 when it (comes out)/(comes down to a comparable price)/(starts to catch up)" MS-DOS's lead continued to grow, nk, and the expected! CP/M-86 dominance never occured.9 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 15:25:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 13:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120827132218.N13152@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > think that even in our litigious time, copying an API is not a crime. Alas, in the current "taste and smell" times, . . . What did Samsung copy from Apple? The court in the Lotus/Paperback SW suit, ruled that having the menu choices in the same order was infringing!! There was a copy of XenoCopy commissioned? by the Australian guvmint! I sincerely hope that they were smart enough to write from scratch, rather than copy my bugs! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 27 16:03:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:03:04 -0400 Subject: dot-matrix printers still in use, was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503BE088.1050304@neurotica.com> On 08/27/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> [1] oddly, one of the local car parts stores - not long opened, either - >> has one, but I couldn't see what model; I can understand a pre-existing >> store perhaps having one, but I was a little surprised that for new >> businesses there wasn't some more recent alternative. > > IIRC, such printers are either still being made, or have only recently > been discontinued. Their advantaeg is that they will aprt on multi-part > (carbon copy) forms, and some businssses still use those. Yes, you could > print out 3 separate pages on an inkjet or laser printer in less time, > but I guess businesses like the idea that all 3 copies (or whatever) were > printed together so they must be the same. I support a couple of companies that still use current-production dot-matrix printers. It is actually not true that you can print three (or whatever) copies faster on a laser printer; most of the time it's just a sales receipt on a pre-printed form, and you're only printing a few dozen to a couple hundred characters on it. Keep in mind that the speed of paper through a laser printer is constant regardless of the amount of text on it, which is not the case for most types of impact printers. One retail chain I support prints and form-feeds a typical two-part receipt in about four seconds. Combine that with the fact that they don't want to put a laser printer at each register, and the fact that they *like* their pre-printed forms...that's why dot-matrix printers are still being made. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Aug 27 16:09:26 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:09:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120827132218.N13152@shell.lmi.net> References: , <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120827132218.N13152@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> think that even in our litigious time, copying an API is not a crime. > > Alas, in the current "taste and smell" times, . . . > What did Samsung copy from Apple? That's a patent, not a copyright. Different rules. Alexey From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 16:09:40 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:09:40 -0500 Subject: dot-matrix printers still in use, was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503BE088.1050304@neurotica.com> References: <503BE088.1050304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: and $$$ On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/27/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> [1] oddly, one of the local car parts stores - not long opened, either - > >> has one, but I couldn't see what model; I can understand a pre-existing > >> store perhaps having one, but I was a little surprised that for new > >> businesses there wasn't some more recent alternative. > > > > IIRC, such printers are either still being made, or have only recently > > been discontinued. Their advantaeg is that they will aprt on multi-part > > (carbon copy) forms, and some businssses still use those. Yes, you could > > print out 3 separate pages on an inkjet or laser printer in less time, > > but I guess businesses like the idea that all 3 copies (or whatever) were > > printed together so they must be the same. > > I support a couple of companies that still use current-production > dot-matrix printers. It is actually not true that you can print three > (or whatever) copies faster on a laser printer; most of the time it's > just a sales receipt on a pre-printed form, and you're only printing a > few dozen to a couple hundred characters on it. Keep in mind that the > speed of paper through a laser printer is constant regardless of the > amount of text on it, which is not the case for most types of impact > printers. One retail chain I support prints and form-feeds a typical > two-part receipt in about four seconds. Combine that with the fact that > they don't want to put a laser printer at each register, and the fact > that they *like* their pre-printed forms...that's why dot-matrix > printers are still being made. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 27 16:15:16 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:15:16 -0400 Subject: dot-matrix printers still in use, was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II References: <503BE088.1050304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 5:03 PM Subject: dot-matrix printers still in use, was Re: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II > I support a couple of companies that still use current-production > dot-matrix printers. It is actually not true that you can print three > (or whatever) copies faster on a laser printer; most of the time it's > just a sales receipt on a pre-printed form, and you're only printing a > few dozen to a couple hundred characters on it. Keep in mind that the > speed of paper through a laser printer is constant regardless of the > amount of text on it, which is not the case for most types of impact > printers. One retail chain I support prints and form-feeds a typical > two-part receipt in about four seconds. Combine that with the fact that > they don't want to put a laser printer at each register, and the fact > that they *like* their pre-printed forms...that's why dot-matrix > printers are still being made. > > -Dave In this day and age it is also harder to fake a receipt done on a dot matrix printer. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 27 16:34:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:34:19 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120827132218.N13152@shell.lmi.net> References: , <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120827132218.N13152@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503B856B.27251.163A49D@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Aug 2012 at 13:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > Alas, in the current "taste and smell" times, . . . > What did Samsung copy from Apple? The court held that Samsung infringed on an Apple patent--a very different matter. Who did Apple buy the patent from? > The court in the Lotus/Paperback SW suit, ruled that having the menu > choices in the same order was infringing!! That was the so-called "look and feel" and didn't cover internal items such as APIs. Intel copyrighted the mnemonics for the 8086 instruction set, but not the 8080. So NEC used their own mnemonics and register names on the V-series chips. It makes for a little mental juggling when reading their literature. Perhaps an API can be copyrighted, but it certainly wouldn't have occurred to Kildall to do so. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 27 16:44:01 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSDD in a Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20120827093216.R8156@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120827093216.R8156@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: >> I have a Kaypro II whos previous owner swapped the two full-height drives >> for a pair of half-height units and made the resulting space into a >> cubbyhole for disks and other things. Last time I had a good look at it, >> I thought the drives were double-sided. Was it possible to get >> double-sided drives to work with the Kaypro II? > > I have received DSDD disks that were explicitly stated to have been from a > II. When was the official switch to DS? Do the earlier machines need > more than a ROM upgrade? (is side-select present?) I'll have to pull it out and give it a complete go-over. But I think I'll need to get some sort of disk-imaging setup going first, either Kryoflux or Discferret as I have no boot media. Another thing, does anyone know where I can get a replacement bail to prop up the machine instead of resting it on the keyboard? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 17:08:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:08:59 -0700 Subject: DSDD in a Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <20120827093216.R8156@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503BEFFB.40007@bitsavers.org> On 8/27/12 2:44 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'll have to pull it out and give it a complete go-over. But I think I'll need to get some sort of disk-imaging setup going first, either Kryoflux or Discferret as I have no boot media. > Imagedisk should work. Dave has Kaypro II system disks on his site. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 27 17:09:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:09:59 -0700 Subject: DSDD in a Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <20120827093216.R8156@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503BF037.9090605@bitsavers.org> On 8/27/12 2:44 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Was it possible to get > double-sided drives to work with the Kaypro II? The other possibility is they only used one side of the disk. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 27 17:25:27 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:25:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503B856B.27251.163A49D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120827132218.N13152@shell.lmi.net> <503B856B.27251.163A49D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Aug 2012 at 13:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Alas, in the current "taste and smell" times, . . . >> What did Samsung copy from Apple? > > The court held that Samsung infringed on an Apple patent--a very > different matter. Who did Apple buy the patent from? The court didn't hold anything. A jury that couldn't be /bothered/ to even read the jury instructions, let alone review any prior art, rushed to "punish" Samsung (contrary to said jury instructions) and award Apple a large sum. IMO that jury, and especially the jury foreman needs to be held in contempt. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390 http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120826/23534320161/applesamsung-jurors-admit-they-finished-quickly-ignoring-prior-art-other-key-factors.shtml From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 27 17:28:41 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:28:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <503B508D.24745.951F4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Aug 2012 at 10:10, Alan Perry wrote: > > Haven't we been here before? > >> And a recent code analysis indicates that QDOS was not stolen from CP/M >> http://m.spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/did-bill-gates-steal-the >> -heart-of-dos/0 > > That IEEE Spectrum article was so much of a bald attempt by some guy > to push his analysis software (I can't even figure out the logic in > his method), that as an IEEE member, I was ashamed that such > stupidity was published in the flagship publication of the Institute. They tried to push this analysis with making references to it in various Wikipedia articles as well. Complete and utter bunk. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 27 17:42:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:42:26 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: References: , <503B856B.27251.163A49D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <503B9562.1774.1A1FFC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Aug 2012 at 17:25, Tothwolf wrote: >> The court didn't hold anything. A jury that couldn't be /bothered/ to > even read the jury instructions, let alone review any prior art, > rushed to "punish" Samsung (contrary to said jury instructions) and > award Apple a large sum. IMO that jury, and especially the jury > foreman needs to be held in contempt. Back when I was involved in expert-witness stuff, I took some expert- witness training courses. Some amazing things were said during them-- by very high-paid litigation attorneys. One of which was something to the effect of "we expect the jury to have the attention and intelligence of the average fourth-grader". So, am I surprised? No, not at all. Do I suspect that the verdict may be overturned or the fine modified? Yup. We haven't seen the end of this one by any means. We live in interesting times. I just got the following article in my email: http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2012/08/hp-dell-pc-makers-in- desperate-need-of-a-reboot The death of the PC? --Chuck From FJGJR1 at aol.com Mon Aug 27 19:32:21 2012 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II Message-ID: <1dc1d.3acea60f.3d6d6b95@aol.com> I am late getting to these so voluminous threads on Kaypros and CP/M, since I was very busy on many other projects in retirement. But can add my ? two [2] cents from the extensive info I have, if you are interested. =============================================================== I was surprised I did not find a reference to _WWW.VINTAGE-COMPUTER.COM_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com/) site in these posts. A lot of what these threads presented have already been exhaustively explored on that site. In fact we have a very extensive ? knowledgebase on Kaypros? we developed there. As far as selling Kaypros, you are right, certainly less than $100, some for only shipping, since they weigh almost 30 pounds because of the metal case and many for free + many just going to the dumpster. That site has a ?free? [what a nice ?F? four letter word !] marketplace for sales / buying a lot of vintage items. I think eBay does not hit the specific ?target group? for vintage computers like this site does. But you get a lot of global exposure sure + scams that would be quickly exposed on the vintage site.. You just can do a search of that site for a great deal of specific information on so many related topics. Comparing vintage computers to modern ones may be like comparing the ever so popular Ford Model T?s for the commodity market at that time to modern cars today. I have a free download of just a ? draft ? of my extensive book on the early vintage computer era, including Osborne, Kaypro, etc. and many related topics. My presentation at the 2008 Trenton Computer Festival is based on that book and is on their Festival CD. ================================================================= If you want to use just ? sales ? for determining the best, no other computer is even close for the market segment the Kaypro was specifically designed for ? very large common market personal, portable computer ?complete ? - all you needed right out of the box, including software, for a reasonable price ? ?the ordinary computer user ? ? a commodity product. There were many others, but much smaller, less popular and did not last long. ============================================================== Simply, the issue was ?hypergrowth? that is the title of Osborne?s book. Production for both very popular Ocbornes and Kaypros was one shipped every 5 - minutes ? many already paid for and long backlogged ! CP/M was ?the? system at that time, until Gates came along. The real big factor was Compaq ?legally cloning? the IBM system, including the ever so important operating system. Briefly, in the last year before bankruptcy, despite their incredible best efforts, Kaypro lost 89% of their sales and Compaq set a record of $12 million profit of any computer company at that time. Game over ! A new era of computing took off ? I use the image of the? relay race ? ? passing the baton of success to the next better competitor. ? Very bitter memories ?s of such times for many ! But little could be done. Lifespan of many sci ? tech companies is just very short as better products by others continue to evolve ? e.g. evolution ? survival of the fittest =================================================================! Kaypro / Non - Linear Systems [NLS] were very well run / well known international companies, that also provided electronic instruments even to the military & meeting their so very strict standards.. We continue to discover many incredible Kaypros in countries around the world ? specific country names are even on the back panel - how about the German Kaypro with German language on the Kaypro screen ! Many stories to tell. The all metal, practical & well designed case is one reason Kaypros are still around.. You can even stand on them ! The basic case design did not change very much thru all their CP/M models. This is all part of many patterns of my decades of STS ? NSF research [Science, Technology & Society ? National Science Foundation partial funding].. We are seeing it so dramatically today in so many global ways ? HP, Dell, Lenovo, IBM, Mircrosoft, Apple, etc .just in computing alone. A great time of ferment / change, etc. ! Very expected & predictable. The issues are simply better understanding and managing the process, so you can apply it to your everyday lives. Eventually as downsizing / cleaning out in retirement of a very successful, productive, wide ranging career [ never could have ever dreamed of !], my six [6] Kaypro ?8?s ? will be put up for auction as ?packages? with much extra parts, software, accessories, etc. Whatever they bring, that is the then ?fair market value? ? at least they will not go to the dumpster. I will well promote these auctions so all seriously interested can bid. Best might be a ? group ? who would then just ? part them out ? for those seriously interested. I do not have the time with all my STS-NSF research. So all the best in your continued vintage computing exploration. Frank P.S. Post as GADFRAN on above web site. Just do your own research and post it for the benefit of us all ! There is no ? one ? right answer, but many depending on many factors to such complex issues with so many ?tradeoff? that depend on so many other issues. In a message dated 8/25/2012 9:18:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ajp166 at verizon.net writes: On 08/25/2012 05:22 AM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 11:14 AM 8/24/2012, Allison wrote: >> David Gesswein wrote: >>> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:21:57PM -0400, Allison wrote: >>> >>>> Unlike many when CP/M came about in the mid 70s I'd experience >>>> with OS/8 and TOPS-10 and wished that CP/M was more. >>>> >>>> >>> I haven't used CP/M. What was the significant items that were better >>> about OS/8 than CP/M? I had thought they were similar in capability >>> (and even shared some command names). >>> >> The biggest difference was OS/8 was multi-task/multi-user. > > OS/8 on the DEC PDP-8 was most definitely single-task, single-user. > There were other PDP-8 operating systems such as TSS-8 (EDUsystem-50) > which were multi-task/multi-user, as well as time-sharing systems that > were multitasking. > > You may be thinking about the fact that OS/8 could be run as a > background job as part of RTS-8. > Indeed it can and also under TSS-8. >> It also existed and was more powerful than CP/M years earlier on >> a CPU (PDP-8) that was more primitive. > > I don't know how anyone could call OS/8 more powerful than CP/M. OS/8 > was a very, very simple system. > So Is CP/M. > OS/8 does just a few things: it allows you to read/write files, has a > command decoder, and a keyboard monitor (command line). It has no > services for critical things like console terminal input/output, has a > rudimentary file system, and basically doesn't do much. > And the difference is? > Now, if you replace the "OS/8" above with "RT-11" I'd be in agreement. > RT11 I could consider that almost true. Save for the file system is actually more primitive as it cannot do scatter gather and CP/M does. A partially used RT11 disk with deleted files needs to be compacted to get back the large contiguous spaces same as NS* dos. But it does many other things very nicely. Allison > -Rick > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 19:44:32 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSDD in a Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <20120827093216.R8156@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120827173059.R17641@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I'll have to pull it out and give it a complete go-over. But I think I'll > need to get some sort of disk-imaging setup going first, either Kryoflux > or Discferret as I have no boot media. Once you have the data to go on them, you can write bootable disks for kaypro on PC hardware. Note: the Double sided Kaypro disks have an invalid value in the head number field in the sector headers of the second side. But, it doesn't CARE if you feed it a disk with the correct value there. So, to write those disks, you do NOT need to talk to the FDC, you can create usable disks with INT13h. Since they are 512 Bytes per sector, with 10 of them per track), you will need to mess with Int1Eh for formatting the "pseudo" Kaypro disks with the valid sector headers, after which Int 13h will be adequate for reading and writing them. If you talk to the FDC, instead of through Int13h and iEh, then you CAN produce disks that even have the invalid sector headers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 27 19:58:57 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:58:57 -0400 Subject: The fall of CP/M? References: , <503B856B.27251.163A49D@cclist.sydex.com>, <503B9562.1774.1A1FFC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8DAD9910902C48B1A898BA03E1AF4162@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "Tothwolf" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 6:42 PM Subject: Re: The fall of CP/M? > > Back when I was involved in expert-witness stuff, I took some expert- > witness training courses. Some amazing things were said during them-- > by very high-paid litigation attorneys. One of which was something > to the effect of "we expect the jury to have the attention and > intelligence of the average fourth-grader". > > So, am I surprised? No, not at all. Do I suspect that the verdict > may be overturned or the fine modified? Yup. > > We haven't seen the end of this one by any means. > > We live in interesting times. I just got the following article in my > email: > > http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2012/08/hp-dell-pc-makers-in- > desperate-need-of-a-reboot > > The death of the PC? > > --Chuck Has anyone here ever been on a jury? The average company doesn't pay you while you are on jury duty so you just need a note from your boss to get out of going (weeding out most professionals). There will not be a death of the PC, just companies who assemble them and then mostly just US based firms. Sooner or later we will have the choice of a few low profile models of Asian designed, manufactured, and assembled pieces of junk for $199. I expect most of these PCs to have pirated Windows installed or no OS at all. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 27 19:59:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <1dc1d.3acea60f.3d6d6b95@aol.com> References: <1dc1d.3acea60f.3d6d6b95@aol.com> Message-ID: <20120827175707.N17641@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 FJGJR1 at aol.com wrote: > Kaypro / Non - Linear Systems [NLS] were very well run / well known > international companies, that also provided electronic instruments even to the > military & meeting their so very strict standards.. Great stuff. I also loved my NLS215 scope. As to "very well run", . . . how about the "circus tent inventory" issues? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 27 20:40:45 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:40:45 -0600 Subject: Wall warts (was Re: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503C219D.8070502@brouhaha.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > I can understand why people go for them. It's a convenient, commonly > available supply, and by using it you can eschew the expense of UL/CSA > testing. What we really need, IMO, is to accept that a large quantity of On 08/27/2012 12:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > This indicates to me that the whole apporval process is broken (it is > over here too). Most wall-warts are not that safe (they do not have > proper fusing or other protective decvices, they do not necessrily fail i > n safe way). The wall warts don't pass UL if they don't have appropriate fusing or protective devices. The ones you're talking about that don't have fusing or protective devices either aren't actually UL listed, or the manufacturer changed the design without resubmitting it, in which case the listing is void and the manufacturer is potentially liable for a considerable amount of damages. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 27 20:47:36 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:47:36 -0600 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> References: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <503C2338.1080802@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote about QDOS for the 8086 vs. CP/M for the 8080: > 1) It was explicitly acknowledged BY PATERSON to be a copy, although > he certainly did not copy any of the internal code. In THOSE days, it > would be called "a clean copy". 2) Under the current "taste and smell" > level of copyright, it would indeed be considered infringing under the > cutrrent INTERPRETATIONS of the law, although not by the "did they > copy bytes?" interpretations at the time. I don't think so. Oracle just mostly lost their multi-billion dollar lawsuit against Google over just such an API claim. The court found that the "structure, sequence, and organization" of an API is not copyrightable. It remains to be seen what will happen on appeal. In a recent similar case in Europe it was also decided that an API is not copyrightable. > Samsung did not "copy bytes" from Apple, but the courts recently > ruled that the similarities are infringing. That's a patent suit, which is a whole different kettle of fish. I think there's a good chance that Samsung will get an appeal on the basis that the judge improperly disallowed some significant evidence. From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Aug 27 21:32:09 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 19:32:09 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <8DAD9910902C48B1A898BA03E1AF4162@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: , <503B856B.27251.163A49D@cclist.sydex.com>, <503B9562.1774.1A1FFC0@cclist.sydex.com> <8DAD9910902C48B1A898BA03E1AF4162@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <503C2DA9.7070908@gmail.com> > Has anyone here ever been on a jury? The average company doesn't pay you > while you are on jury duty so you just need a note from your boss to get > out of going (weeding out most professionals). I was... I know. It's rare. It was a complicated breach of contract case. That's not how it works in Arizona. The judge explained that they were cracking down on excuses. The judge would not excuse anyone because of financial hardship. Period. The judge would not even excuse a juror with narcolepsy! Mothers with infant children did get excused. There was one other valid reason but I can't remember what it was. I don't think the lawyers wanted jurors that didn't want to be there... They did the right thing. Rob. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 27 22:09:22 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:09:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DSDD in a Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: <20120827093216.R8156@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, David Griffith wrote: > Another thing, does anyone know where I can get a replacement bail to prop up > the machine instead of resting it on the keyboard? I would check with Bud Industries and Hammond Manufacturing. If they don't have anything you may have to have one made. http://www.budind.com/ http://www.hammondmfg.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 27 22:10:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:10:40 -0700 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <8DAD9910902C48B1A898BA03E1AF4162@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: , <8DAD9910902C48B1A898BA03E1AF4162@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <503BD440.21776.29792E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Aug 2012 at 20:58, TeoZ wrote: > Has anyone here ever been on a jury? The average company doesn't pay > you while you are on jury duty so you just need a note from your boss > to get out of going (weeding out most professionals). At least in my county (which includes a Federal court), anyone can elect not to serve on a jury for a given session, but you immediately go into the top of the hopper for the next round of selections, so it's a no-win. The best thing is to simply go. The clerk estimates needs based on the court calendar. Most often, if you respond to the summons, you spend an hour in the jury waiting room and go home because you're not needed. I've been summoned three times in the last 8 years and have found the people there to be very courteous and very willing to accommodate. Free coffee, books and magazines to read to pass the time. An altogether not unpleasant experience. I suspect that the major multi-week cases are quite rare. The odd thing is that my wife has been summoned only once in the same period. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Aug 27 22:39:20 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:39:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503C2338.1080802@brouhaha.com> References: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> <503C2338.1080802@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote about QDOS for the 8086 vs. CP/M for the 8080: > >> Samsung did not "copy bytes" from Apple, but the courts recently ruled >> that the similarities are infringing. > > That's a patent suit, which is a whole different kettle of fish. I think > there's a good chance that Samsung will get an appeal on the basis that the > judge improperly disallowed some significant evidence. Indeed. Kubrick and Roddenberry did it first. Flat surface, round corners and all. http://tabtimes.com/news/ittech-manufacturers/2012/08/02/apple-vs-samsung-judge-denies-samsung-push-use-scifi-examples http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/08/02/judge_denies_samsungs_2001_a_space_odyssey_fidler_tablet_arguments.html http://allthingsd.com/20120731/samsung-goes-public-with-excluded-evidence-to-undercut-apples-design-claims/ From FJGJR1 at aol.com Mon Aug 27 23:12:49 2012 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 00:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II Message-ID: <32ff4.7ccefd5e.3d6d9e7e@aol.com> Totally agree, but not earlier !!! Incredible ! Frank In a message dated 8/27/2012 9:04:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 FJGJR1 at aol.com wrote: > Kaypro / Non - Linear Systems [NLS] were very well run / well known > international companies, that also provided electronic instruments even to the > military & meeting their so very strict standards.. Great stuff. I also loved my NLS215 scope. As to "very well run", . . . how about the "circus tent inventory" issues? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 28 00:33:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: References: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> <503C2338.1080802@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120827223227.Y24857@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > Indeed. Kubrick and Roddenberry did it first. Flat surface, round corners > and all. Is flat surface, rounded corners part of the intellectual property at stake?? From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Mon Aug 27 21:17:44 2012 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:17:44 -0600 Subject: DG Nova 3 front panel levers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503C2A48.4090801@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Andrea - I will contact you off list regarding some options... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com On 8/25/2012 2:41 AM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello. > I have a Data General Nova 3 computer, unfortunately the front panel > is missing all of the yellow plastic levers. > Anybody has some spare to sell at reasonable price? > In the case I cannot find the original levers, I could try to realize > a mold to reproduce it using model-casting resins. > I would need however some kind of mechanical drawings, or also some > good picture made together with a ruler, so dimensions > can be somehow measured on the picture itself. > An idea could be to use a scanner as imaging device, as it will not > deform the image, and to scan the lever, specially on the side. > Anybody can help? > Thanks in advance > Andrea > From eivinde at terraplane.org Tue Aug 28 03:12:11 2012 From: eivinde at terraplane.org (Eivind Evensen) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:12:11 +0200 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120827223227.Y24857@shell.lmi.net> References: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> <503C2338.1080802@brouhaha.com> <20120827223227.Y24857@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120828081211.GA51335@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 10:33:37PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > > Indeed. Kubrick and Roddenberry did it first. Flat surface, round corners > > and all. > > Is flat surface, rounded corners part of the intellectual property at > stake?? Yes, so watch out everybody producing bars of soap, apple's out to get you. -- Eivind From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 28 04:22:18 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 05:22:18 -0400 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503B9562.1774.1A1FFC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <503B856B.27251.163A49D@cclist.sydex.com>, <503B9562.1774.1A1FFC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <503C8DCA.6040405@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 27 Aug 2012 at 17:25, Tothwolf wrote: > >>>The court didn't hold anything. A jury that couldn't be /bothered/ to >>> >>even read the jury instructions, let alone review any prior art, >>rushed to "punish" Samsung (contrary to said jury instructions) and >>award Apple a large sum. IMO that jury, and especially the jury >>foreman needs to be held in contempt. >> >Back when I was involved in expert-witness stuff, I took some expert- >witness training courses. Some amazing things were said during them-- >by very high-paid litigation attorneys. One of which was something >to the effect of "we expect the jury to have the attention and >intelligence of the average fourth-grader". > >So, am I surprised? No, not at all. Do I suspect that the verdict >may be overturned or the fine modified? Yup. > >We haven't seen the end of this one by any means. > >We live in interesting times. I just got the following article in my >email: > >http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2012/08/hp-dell-pc-makers-in-desperate-need-of-a-reboot > >The death of the PC? > Check From abs at absd.org Tue Aug 28 05:15:38 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:15:38 +0100 Subject: Netboot (Was: The best CP/M machine ever?) Message-ID: On 23 August 2012 23:16, Liam Proven wrote: [...] > True about the boot code, but the 9512 has a parallel port as well as > its expansion bus connector. > > I've got a serial port cartridge for mine, which I planned to hook up > to my VAXstation as a terminal - only the eBayer who sold me the > VAXstation kept not only the disk, but also the cradle and cable, > replacing which will cost me 30-40? the cost of the VAX. :?( Is it one of the models which uses a non-standard SCSI connection to the board? :/ You could always netboot the VAX and run it diskless (which may also drop the ambient noise by a couple of DBs depending on the vintage of SCSI drive you have :) Over the years I've been an enormous fan of netbootable hardware, including the 90's when I used to netboot, disk format and os re-install suns from another continent... Of course I'm currently using my VAXstation as a netboot and network file server rather than client, but I guess I'm just a little perverse like that... David From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 28 08:19:07 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 06:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSDD in a Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <503BEFFB.40007@bitsavers.org> References: <20120827093216.R8156@shell.lmi.net> <503BEFFB.40007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/27/12 2:44 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> I'll have to pull it out and give it a complete go-over. But I think I'll >> need to get some sort of disk-imaging setup going first, either Kryoflux or >> Discferret as I have no boot media. >> > > Imagedisk should work. Dave has Kaypro II system disks on his site. ...and they do work. I generated a full set of disks for my Kaypro 10 using the images I found there. Awesome resource. (Thanks Dave!) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 10:11:12 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:11:12 -0400 Subject: Ideal storage conditions Message-ID: So I finally have one of them fancy dehumidifiers that has a finely adjustable humidi-stat in the basement to keep the collection dry. What's the ideal setting? I know too dry isn't a good thing, for neither the collection nor my house. Right now I've got it set to 40% and it's running pretty aggressively. My basement hovers between 55 and 60 degrees Fahrenheit throughout the year, and the dehumidifier figures out relative humidity for you. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 10:27:35 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:27:35 -0400 Subject: Ideal storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503CE367.9070200@gmail.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > So I finally have one of them fancy dehumidifiers that has a finely > adjustable humidi-stat in the basement to keep the collection dry. > > What's the ideal setting? I know too dry isn't a good thing, for neither > the collection nor my house. Right now I've got it set to 40% and it's > running pretty aggressively. My basement hovers between 55 and 60 degrees > Fahrenheit throughout the year, and the dehumidifier figures out relative > humidity for you. I keep mine at 50%. Also, be prepared for it to get a bit warmer down there than before. There will be some waste heat from the dehumidifier. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 28 11:34:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120828081211.GA51335@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> References: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> <503C2338.1080802@brouhaha.com> <20120827223227.Y24857@shell.lmi.net> <20120828081211.GA51335@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> Message-ID: <20120828093343.W38888@shell.lmi.net> > > Is flat surface, rounded corners part of the intellectual property at > > stake?? On Tue, 28 Aug 2012, Eivind Evensen wrote: > Yes, so watch out everybody producing bars of soap, apple's out > to get you. THAT is why some soaps are a curved face! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 28 11:36:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <503C8DCA.6040405@compsys.to> References: , <503B856B.27251.163A49D@cclist.sydex.com>, <503B9562.1774.1A1FFC0@cclist.sydex.com> <503C8DCA.6040405@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20120828093549.K38888@shell.lmi.net> > >The death of the PC? > Check Mate? From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Aug 28 12:12:39 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:12:39 +0000 Subject: Ideal storage conditions Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251E8EF0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > So I finally have one of them fancy dehumidifiers that has a finely > adjustable humidi-stat in the basement to keep the collection dry. Required listening, the Traveling Wilburys "Cool Dry Place". > What's the ideal setting? I know too dry isn't a good thing, for neither > the collection nor my house. Right now I've got it set to 40% and it's > running pretty aggressively. My basement hovers between 55 and 60 degrees > Fahrenheit throughout the year, and the dehumidifier figures out relative > humidity for you. I think 40% is a little too aggressively low and my dehumidifier would run pretty much continuously May-September if I had it set that low. 60% is a better ballpark and only during the most humid parts of summer does my basement dehumidifier run more than a few hours a day. I will sometimes go as low as 30% setting during the summer but only when I want to demonstrate my Wimshurst machine :-) Tim. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 14:23:36 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:23:36 -0500 Subject: Ideal storage conditions In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251E8EF0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251E8EF0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: whats a good dehumidfyer the basement walls at my mothers allways sweat in the summer and is causing mold atm as a result gotta rip out all the insulation... can get down to -40 in the winter here.... On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > So I finally have one of them fancy dehumidifiers that has a finely > > adjustable humidi-stat in the basement to keep the collection dry. > > Required listening, the Traveling Wilburys "Cool Dry Place". > > > What's the ideal setting? I know too dry isn't a good thing, for neither > > the collection nor my house. Right now I've got it set to 40% and it's > > running pretty aggressively. My basement hovers between 55 and 60 degrees > > Fahrenheit throughout the year, and the dehumidifier figures out relative > > humidity for you. > > I think 40% is a little too aggressively low and my dehumidifier would run > pretty much continuously May-September if I had it set that low. 60% is a > better ballpark and only during the most humid parts of summer does my > basement dehumidifier run more than a few hours a day. > > I will sometimes go as low as 30% setting during the summer but only when > I want to demonstrate my Wimshurst machine :-) > > Tim. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 14:08:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:08:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <38544841.933731.1346093262750.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> from "feldman.r@comcast.net" at Aug 27, 12 06:47:42 pm Message-ID: > I haven't been following this thread too closely, but couldn't you use > an HP palmtop (HPLX 200 or HPLX 95)? IIRC, Tony does that with an LX95. > Screen is smaller than 7", but they are definitely something "really > small" and easy to carry. Also, no need for external power, as they use > 2 AA batteries. Indeed I do use an HP95LX as a portable terminal. The good points : Useable keyboard (certainly better than a touchscreen) VT100 emulation Kermit, Xmodem and 'raw text' file transfer with local file storage. I can capture data from some RS232 device and then kermit it to my PC Runs on 2 AA cells -- for a long time It's tiny. It'll sit on top of _anything_. Much easier to find space for than a full CRT-based video terminal Bad points : The keyboard is a bit small for typing a lot on IT's only a 40 column display (but other models have 80 column, but I find the 40 column display easier to read i na hurry) The serial port has no hardware handshake lines. Again other models added them. The standard HP serial cable for the 95LX ends i na DE9 socket, wired as a DCE. IT was designed to plug into a PC serial port for file transfer. I have several cables, so I cut the mounded DE9 socket off one of them and wired the cable to a DB25 plug _as a DTE_. That makes it more convenient to use as a terminal. I wouldn't want ot use an HP palmtop as my only terminal, but it's a handy device. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 14:28:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:28:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wall warts (was Re: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator) In-Reply-To: <503C219D.8070502@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 27, 12 07:40:45 pm Message-ID: > > Paul Anderson wrote: > > I can understand why people go for them. It's a convenient, commonly > > available supply, and by using it you can eschew the expense of UL/CSA > > testing. What we really need, IMO, is to accept that a large quantity of > > On 08/27/2012 12:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > This indicates to me that the whole apporval process is broken (it is > > over here too). Most wall-warts are not that safe (they do not have > > proper fusing or other protective decvices, they do not necessrily fail i > > n safe way). > > The wall warts don't pass UL if they don't have appropriate fusing or > protective devices. The ones you're talking about that don't have Of course wall-warts are country specfic in that the mains voltage and conenctor are different in differnet countries. So I've probably never seen a modern one intended for use in the USA and thus UL listed But the ones we get over here have no protective devices at all. No fuse, no thermal fuse. If you are lucky, the resistors in a swithc-mode wall wart are fusible, flameproof types. Most of the time they are not. For linear wall-warts, the transformer primary is _supposed_ to burn out in a safe manner if the thing is overloaded. My (accindental) experience is that they do not. The transformer can get hot enough to soften the plastic case, but it does not burn out. > fusing or protective devices either aren't actually UL listed, or the > manufacturer changed the design without resubmitting it, in which case > the listing is void and the manufacturer is potentially liable for a > considerable amount of damages. That may well be true. It doesn't mean I consider said units to be remotely safe. Unlike my home-made PSUYs where I tend to put at least a fuse in both pirmary and secodnary circuits. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 28 14:33:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:33:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120828081211.GA51335@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> from "Eivind Evensen" at Aug 28, 12 10:12:11 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 10:33:37PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > > > Indeed. Kubrick and Roddenberry did it first. Flat surface, round corners > > > and all. > > > > Is flat surface, rounded corners part of the intellectual property at > > stake?? > > Yes, so watch out everybody producing bars of soap, apple's out > to get you. That reminds me of a probably apocryphal story : After an Apple lawsuit which protected the 'look and feel' of the Macintosh user interface, some joker put a label on his dustbin (garbage can) reading ' The visual appearance of this item is the interlectual property of the Apple Computer Corporation' -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 28 15:03:47 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 10:33:37PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >>>> Indeed. Kubrick and Roddenberry did it first. Flat surface, round corners >>>> and all. >>> >>> Is flat surface, rounded corners part of the intellectual property at >>> stake?? >> >> Yes, so watch out everybody producing bars of soap, apple's out >> to get you. > > That reminds me of a probably apocryphal story : > > After an Apple lawsuit which protected the 'look and feel' of the > Macintosh user interface, some joker put a label on his dustbin (garbage > can) reading ' The visual appearance of this item is the interlectual > property of the Apple Computer Corporation' > Sounds like Apple vs DRI. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 15:22:48 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 21:22:48 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes Message-ID: On 25 August 2012 15:29, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 08/23/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein? It runs soemthing called >> XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same). > > I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder > how common "almost CP/M" variants were... That's a really interesting question, actually, I would say. [Does a bit of Googling] There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro. The only one I saw or used was a Disk Pack: http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Torch/Torch_Z80DiscPack.pdf There was a time, when I was about 13 or 14, when I thought that this was about *the* most powerful and desirable computer setup I'd ever seen or heard of. ;?) What I had not appreciated until now was that Torch's version of CP/M was a special one, which ran from ROM. That is apparently why they called it CPN instead. There was also a standalone 2nd processor, no disk drives: http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/8bit_Upgrades/Torch_Z802ndproc.html There's a user manual for a CPN system here: http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Torch/Torch_ZDPUG.pdf It contains a little non-technical info: ? the TORCH CPN operating system, (a 16K ROM containing a CP/M compatible "look alike") ? ? INTRODUCTION The TORCH CPN operating system which is a CP/M "look alike" has much more flexibility than conventional CP/M. It has more "built in" commands and is easier to use. The most significant advantage of the TORCH CPN operating system, is that it is stored in ROM (Read Only Memory) rather than on disc. This means that on "power up" the TORCH disc pack and BBC micro are automatically ready to accept instructions typed in at the keyboard. ? Another CP/M compatible OS I was aware of was Pro-DOS for the MGT SAM Coup?: http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/whatisprodos.html ? What is Pro-DOS? Pro-DOS could be thought of as a Disk Operating System (DOS), However, it is more than this, it is a full Operating System that Provides compatibility with CP/M 2.2. In simple terms this means that a whole world of software that was designed to run under CP/M 2.2. will now run on the SAM Coup?. Pro-DOS uses the same Disk format as the Amstrad PCW 8256 and, as a result, it can read disks from this machine direct, this also Means that there is a vast range of software already available from sources such as Public Domain libraries. ? I hadn't realised it was by virus writer Chris "The Black Baron" Pile, who was imprisoned for writing Queeg, SMEG and Pathogen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Pile_(programmer) It is an admitted reverse-engineered effort as you can find from this interesting review, complete with an account of nostalgia-destroying 8-bit compatibility problems: http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/pdreview.html As for the Tatung, I've found very little info on XTal DOS, apart from something calling it " a compatible but beefed-up version of CP/M called Xtal DOS." http://www.tuicool.com/articles/myEBvq Anyone got more? Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 16:16:36 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not another Apple 1 In-Reply-To: <1344630200.91081.YahooMailNeo@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <552235293d6f0cf93694b89242fb888c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1344630200.91081.YahooMailNeo@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1346188596.42155.YahooMailNeo@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/08/28/original-apple-computer-auction-christies/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Aug 28 16:27:52 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:27:52 -0400 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net> PRODOS is Apple (6502) and not Z80 that I know of. For Z80 there is UZIUnix, basically unix for Z80s and best used with a memory mapped system with a lot of ram. CP/M is flexible and can be rommed though it's more flexible if not in rom as it is over layable. As to native commands there are enough and external utilities can fill the gaps and since there were also third party utilities that list was extensible. Not to leave out CP/M clones such as ZRDOS, SUPRDOS, and a few others that did add even more flexibility. Then there are the vendor specific DOSs, Chromix, NS*DOS, HDOS, FDOS, and Helios, that only ran on vendor specific systems usually most tightly tied to the disk subsystem. For example NS*DOS was tied the NS* minidisk controllerass most of the dos it self was the driver for the disk system (the controller was very dumb and the CPU did all the lifting save for the high speed data serialization. As a result it was not easily ported to any other controller. CP/M had the advantatge that a program written on a kaypro would run on ANY Platform that ran a standard flavor of CP/M making for the widest cross vendor software platform. Added to that that CP/M could be run on any vendor specific disk subsystem just by creating an suitable BIOS and many third party vendors did. Was it the best, not so much, but it was a common system on the 8080/z80 world making a lot of software available. Allison On 08/28/2012 04:22 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 25 August 2012 15:29, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 08/23/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein? It runs soemthing called >>> XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same). >> I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder >> how common "almost CP/M" variants were... > That's a really interesting question, actually, I would say. > > [Does a bit of Googling] > > There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro. > > The only one I saw or used was a Disk Pack: > http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Torch/Torch_Z80DiscPack.pdf > > There was a time, when I was about 13 or 14, when I thought that this > was about *the* most powerful and desirable computer setup I'd ever > seen or heard of. ;?) > > What I had not appreciated until now was that Torch's version of CP/M > was a special one, which ran from ROM. That is apparently why they > called it CPN instead. > > There was also a standalone 2nd processor, no disk drives: > http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/8bit_Upgrades/Torch_Z802ndproc.html > > There's a user manual for a CPN system here: > http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Torch/Torch_ZDPUG.pdf > > It contains a little non-technical info: > > ? > the TORCH CPN operating > system, (a 16K ROM containing a CP/M compatible "look alike") > ? > > ? > INTRODUCTION > The TORCH CPN operating system which is a CP/M "look alike" has > much more flexibility than conventional CP/M. It has more "built in" > commands and is easier to use. The most significant advantage of the > TORCH CPN operating system, is that it is stored in ROM (Read Only > Memory) rather than on disc. This means that on "power up" the TORCH > disc pack and BBC micro are automatically ready to accept instructions > typed in at the keyboard. > ? > > Another CP/M compatible OS I was aware of was Pro-DOS for the MGT SAM Coup?: > http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/whatisprodos.html > > ? > What is Pro-DOS? > Pro-DOS could be thought of as a Disk Operating System (DOS), However, > it is more than this, it is a full Operating System that Provides > compatibility with CP/M 2.2. > In simple terms this means that a whole world of software that was > designed to run under CP/M 2.2. will now run on the SAM Coup?. Pro-DOS > uses the same Disk format as the Amstrad PCW 8256 and, as a result, it > can read disks from this machine direct, this also Means that there is > a vast range of software already available from sources such as Public > Domain libraries. > ? > > I hadn't realised it was by virus writer Chris "The Black Baron" Pile, > who was imprisoned for writing Queeg, SMEG and Pathogen: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Pile_(programmer) > > It is an admitted reverse-engineered effort as you can find from this > interesting review, complete with an account of nostalgia-destroying > 8-bit compatibility problems: > http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/pdreview.html > > As for the Tatung, I've found very little info on XTal DOS, apart from > something calling it " a compatible but beefed-up version of CP/M > called Xtal DOS." > > http://www.tuicool.com/articles/myEBvq > > Anyone got more? > > Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs? > From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Aug 28 09:28:45 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:28:45 -0300 Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <20120827223227.Y24857@shell.lmi.net> References: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> <503C2338.1080802@brouhaha.com> <20120827223227.Y24857@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201208282245.q7SMjNHw032080@billy.ezwind.net> Fred Cisin wrote: on Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:33:37 -0700 (PDT) > On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > > Indeed. Kubrick and Roddenberry did it first. Flat surface, round corners > > and all. > > Is flat surface, rounded corners part of the intellectual property at > stake?? Not part - they are the very essence of the case. Did you see the big deal people were making of the fact that when the two devices are turned off and held at a distance they are hard to tell apart? Any discussion in which trademarks, copyrights, utility patents and design patents are not clearly distinguished is doomed to be pointless. The Apple vs Samsung case is not about any of the first three, but about design patents. Here is what the US Patent Office has to say about the differences between utility patents (inventions) and design patents (what things look like): http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/1500_1502_01.htm For a utility patent, the fact that some device had been faked years earlier in some sci fi movie does not matter at all (the creators of "Back to the Future" don't really know how to build a Flux Capacitor, for example). For a design pattern, on the other hand, old movies can indeed be valid prior art. -- Jecel From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Aug 28 18:14:37 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 10:33:37PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >>>> Indeed. Kubrick and Roddenberry did it first. Flat surface, round corners >>>> and all. >>> >>> Is flat surface, rounded corners part of the intellectual property at >>> stake?? >> >> Yes, so watch out everybody producing bars of soap, apple's out >> to get you. > > That reminds me of a probably apocryphal story : > > After an Apple lawsuit which protected the 'look and feel' of the > Macintosh user interface, some joker put a label on his dustbin (garbage > can) reading ' The visual appearance of this item is the interlectual > property of the Apple Computer Corporation' More than a few people did similar stuff. I remember something similar from uni. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Aug 28 18:23:12 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The fall of CP/M? In-Reply-To: <201208282245.q7SMjNHw032080@billy.ezwind.net> References: <503BAA1F.50308@snowmoose.com> <20120827125739.G13152@shell.lmi.net> <503C2338.1080802@brouhaha.com> <20120827223227.Y24857@shell.lmi.net> <201208282245.q7SMjNHw032080@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2012, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: on Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:33:37 -0700 (PDT) >> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >>> Indeed. Kubrick and Roddenberry did it first. Flat surface, round corners >>> and all. >> >> Is flat surface, rounded corners part of the intellectual property at >> stake?? > > Not part - they are the very essence of the case. Did you see the big > deal people were making of the fact that when the two devices are turned > off and held at a distance they are hard to tell apart? > > Any discussion in which trademarks, copyrights, utility patents and > design patents are not clearly distinguished is doomed to be pointless. > The Apple vs Samsung case is not about any of the first three, but about > design patents. Here is what the US Patent Office has to say about the > differences between utility patents (inventions) and design patents > (what things look like): > > http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/1500_1502_01.htm > > For a utility patent, the fact that some device had been faked years > earlier in some sci fi movie does not matter at all (the creators of > "Back to the Future" don't really know how to build a Flux Capacitor, > for example). For a design pattern, on the other hand, old movies can > indeed be valid prior art. With all the articles talking about this affair, it sounds like they were squaring off over the look of the devices. Would someone please post a link to something that clearly states exactly what the snit is about? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Aug 28 18:47:05 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:47:05 -0400 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ba701cd8577$6eb68430$4c238c90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Liam Proven wrote: > > Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs? > Cromemco CDOS. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 20:19:01 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:19:01 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net> References: <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 28 August 2012 22:27, allison wrote: > > PRODOS is Apple (6502) and not Z80 that I know of. Did I say *anything* about Apple II? No. Did I say PRODOS? No. Did I in fact say "Pro-DOS" with a hyphen and the first word having only an initial cap? Did I specify the machine it ran on, give a link to info, a review of it, a profile of its author and more? How strange. Why yes I did. Yes, I carefully spelled out that I was talking about the SAM Coup? OS. > For Z80 there is UZIUnix, basically unix for Z80s and best used with a > memory mapped system with a lot of ram. Erm, how is that a CP/M clone or CP/M-compatible? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 00:30:00 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: monitor arcing? Message-ID: <1346218200.84592.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> dark powdery residue around power switch. 1986. Simple arcing or an indication of something worse? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 00:44:17 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 00:44:17 -0500 Subject: monitor arcing? In-Reply-To: <1346218200.84592.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1346218200.84592.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: take the cover off and see? On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 12:30 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > dark powdery residue around power switch. 1986. Simple arcing or an > indication of something worse? > From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Aug 29 00:59:07 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:59:07 -0700 Subject: monitor arcing? In-Reply-To: <1346218200.84592.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1346218200.84592.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <503DAFAB.80503@gorge.net> Chris Tofu wrote: > dark powdery residue around power switch. 1986. Simple arcing or an indication of something worse? > Given the equipment's age, I 'm guessing mold or contact arcing residue. I would worry more about the condition of the rest of the system. - Jim Davis From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 09:48:19 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 09:48:19 -0500 Subject: Acorn Atom - more ebay craziness Message-ID: <503E2BB3.7010907@gmail.com> http://search.ebay.com/251105620795 Hardly Apple I territory, but 1,100.00 GBP (~ 1700 USD) is an incredible amount for a home computer which occupied the middle ground: not as ubiquitous or famous as the Spectrum, C64, BBC micro etc., but not as rare or desirable as those which came before it (ZX80, Acorn System 1 etc.) It's not as though it's an early release or one of the ones sold in kit form. The lack of serial number on the case raises the possibility that the case and PCB weren't paired at the factory (which surely makes it non-original and a mongrel :-) I can't even begin to make sense of most ebay sales, but what do people think? Just someone with rather deep pockets? Or perhaps the seller buying it back themselves in order to create an inflated sense of 'market value' (and with the intention of re-listing it under a different account in a few months)? cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 10:40:11 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:40:11 -0500 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503E37DB.8040707@gmail.com> On 08/28/2012 03:22 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 25 August 2012 15:29, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 08/23/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein? It runs soemthing called >>> XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same). >> >> I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder >> how common "almost CP/M" variants were... > > That's a really interesting question, actually, I would say. > > [Does a bit of Googling] > > There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro. Yes, quite a few - plus various self-contained machines which used the BBC board as an I/O processor. Most of them vanished to landfill years ago, it seems, and are quite rare these days (mainly because they didn't have any particular following back in the day, so nobody kept hold of them). I've still got examples of all their boards, and a Graduate, and I think I kept a 725 - but I got shot of my disc packs[1] and C-series machine. [1] as well as the usual brown-cased one, I had a prototype one in the same cream/grey as the 700-series, Unicorn and Graduate cases. I have no idea why Torch went with "1970's brown" for the production ones! > There was also a standalone 2nd processor, no disk drives: > http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/8bit_Upgrades/Torch_Z802ndproc.html They did four that I know of: Communicator (as referenced in the link) Tosca - as Communicator, but also with a local Z80 SIO Neptune - 8MHz m68k + Z80, 1MB max RAM Atlas - 10MHz m68k + Z80, 4MB max RAM Communicator and Tosca would run CPN, Neptune and Atlas would run CPN and Unix (System III). They seem to exist variously in the wild as standalone boards, sold in cased add-ons for BBC machines (e.g. Unicorn range), and as part of all-in-one Torch systems (700-series, C-series etc.) > ? > the TORCH CPN operating > system, (a 16K ROM containing a CP/M compatible "look alike") > ? I can't recall now if CPN existed solely on the BBC side of things, or if part of it was in the ROM on the copro ('CCCPN' on the Neptune boards and 'CCCP' on everything else). > Another CP/M compatible OS I was aware of was Pro-DOS for the MGT SAM Coup?: > http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/whatisprodos.html Neat. For a long time I wanted a SAM Coup?, but then of course bigger and better things came along. Quite an amazing machine for the time, though. > As for the Tatung, I've found very little info on XTal DOS, apart from > something calling it " a compatible but beefed-up version of CP/M > called Xtal DOS." Yes, no experience there myself... I think I've only ever used an Einstein for about 5 minutes :) cheers Jules From fgara at comcast.net Wed Aug 29 10:49:36 2012 From: fgara at comcast.net (Franco Garavoglia) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 11:49:36 -0400 Subject: MINC DECLAB23 complete system and documentation Message-ID: <1BB3F5BAB59F434DAC1E5B4E2AA94E6E@TecraA9> Please find pictures of the MINC/DECLAB23 in my possession. I am interested in selling all, preferably, or part of the following: http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/2537/img0020lm.jpg http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6893/img0022gu.jpg http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/7195/img0025n.jpg http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4470/img0026tk.jpg Boards in the MINC DECLAB23 Chassis: DEC-LAB 1) MINCAG PREAMP 2) MNCAD A/D CONVERTER 3) MNCAA D/A CONVERTER 4) MNCDO DIGITAL OUT 5) MNCDI DIGITAL IN 6) MNCKW CLOCK CPU 1) M7954 2) M8043 3) M8014 4) M8013 5) M8044DC 6) M8044DH 7) M8186 Extras: SPARE 1) M7071 (Wave Generator) 2) M8659 The complete system includes: 1) VT-105 with Graphic Package 2) RL01 2-Bay Hard Drive (Cartridge Type) 3) LA 120 DECWriter III Terminal 4) All Original Manuals (RT-11 and DECLab23), all software Dispatch documentation 5) No. 20 Software Cartridge Disks, No. 3 New Cartridge Disks (all for RL01) For more information please send inquiries to fgara at comcast.net From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Aug 29 12:28:51 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 17:28:51 +0000 Subject: Wall warts (was Re: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator) Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EB611@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > For linear wall-warts, the transformer primary is _supposed_ > to burn out in a safe manner if the thing is overloaded. My > (accindental) experience is that they do not. The transformer > can get hot enough to soften the plastic case, but it does not burn out. I thought that many (most?) wall warts were "impedance protected". i.e. the winding resistance + inductance of the device is set such that thing might get hot and buzz in a short circuit but will not catch on fire. Like those small AC motor windings. Some folks think UL rating means that the device is reliable, or well engineered in some hypothetical sense, but really what it means is that it won't start a fire. Impedance protection is one of the reasons why unregulated wall warts have such high delta between loaded and unloaded voltage (often as much as a factor of two). They are designed with high internal resistance to provide the impedance protection. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 29 13:58:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 11:58:40 -0700 Subject: Wall warts (was Re: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator) In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EB611@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EB611@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <503E03F0.148.CC346D@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Aug 2012 at 17:28, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I thought that many (most?) wall warts were "impedance protected". > i.e. the winding resistance + inductance of the device is set such > that thing might get hot and buzz in a short circuit but will not > catch on fire. Like those small AC motor windings. Maybe, but I've also seen them with thermal fuses as well as the usual pigtail glass ones inside the "wart". Impedance protection won't save you from a shorted primary winding. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 14:10:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:10:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: <503E37DB.8040707@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 29, 12 10:40:11 am Message-ID: > > There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro. > > Yes, quite a few - plus various self-contained machines which used the BBC > board as an I/O processor. Most of them vanished to landfill years ago, it There were also later Torch machines that were stnadalone units without a BBC micro board. They ere not Z80 based (68K machines IIRC). But you mentioend hte Graduate which wasn't a Z80 machine either (8088 MS-DOS coprocessor of the beeb) so I guess you're conisdering all their products. > seems, and are quite rare these days (mainly because they didn't have any > particular following back in the day, so nobody kept hold of them). > > I've still got examples of all their boards, and a Graduate, and I think I > kept a 725 - but I got shot of my disc packs[1] and C-series machine. _All_ their boards? I am impressed. A quad-X is not at all easy to find... > > As for the Tatung, I've found very little info on XTal DOS, apart from > > something calling it " a compatible but beefed-up version of CP/M > > called Xtal DOS." > > Yes, no experience there myself... I think I've only ever used an Einstein > for about 5 minutes :) I've got an Eitstein, but I've never done much XtalDos hackeing. It does feel a lot like CP/M and from what I recall when a friend ported Fig Forth and Argon chess to the Eintein there were not problems at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 14:16:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:16:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wall warts (was Re: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator) In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EB611@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> from "Shoppa, Tim" at Aug 29, 12 05:28:51 pm Message-ID: > > > For linear wall-warts, the transformer primary is _supposed_ > > to burn out in a safe manner if the thing is overloaded. My > > (accindental) experience is that they do not. The transformer > > can get hot enough to soften the plastic case, but it does not burn out. > > I thought that many (most?) wall warts were "impedance protected". > i.e. the winding resistance + inductance of the device is set such that > thing might get hot and buzz in a short circuit but will not catch on > fire. Like those small AC motor windings. Maybe some are. But I don';t think all are. There was a common wall wart sold over here, maybe it still is. It has 2 slide switches on it, one sets the (unregualted) output voltage (a tap changer o nthe transfoemer), the other reverses the polarity of the output. The output conenctor is a cross-shaped thing with the arms of the cross being 2.5mm jack plug, 3.5mm jack plug, 2.1mm (i/D) coaxial power connecotr and 2.5mm ditto. Hanging off that on shrt leads are a 1.3mm coaxial power conencotr and a PP3-type (9V batter) chip. I had oen of thes plugged in on my bench. The exposed metal contacts of the PP3 clip found one of the arm of the cross-shaped conenctor. The result was that the output was deat short. I noticed this some time later ehrn it was hot enough to smoke and softne the plastic case sufficiently to expose live parts. Of course I disconencted it for the mains at once and after it had cooled I invetigated it. The PCB was charred, the plastic sleeve on the smoothing capacitor had melted and split, but the transformer was still continuous so presumably would have carried on heating. You may think that's a safe design, I do not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 14:04:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:04:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Acorn Atom - more ebay craziness In-Reply-To: <503E2BB3.7010907@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 29, 12 09:48:19 am Message-ID: > > > http://search.ebay.com/251105620795 > > Hardly Apple I territory, but 1,100.00 GBP (~ 1700 USD) is an incredible _How much_? I've got 3 or 4 of them. I've also got the official Econet interface (fits on the track side of the main PCB) in one of them. A couple of the others have 'System' eurocard I/O bords fitted inside the case (the Atom expansion connector is essentially the System bus). It's odd what people will pay serious money for... > amount for a home computer which occupied the middle ground: not as > ubiquitous or famous as the Spectrum, C64, BBC micro etc., but not as rare > or desirable as those which came before it (ZX80, Acorn System 1 etc.) > > It's not as though it's an early release or one of the ones sold in kit > form. The lack of serial number on the case raises the possibility that the > case and PCB weren't paired at the factory (which surely makes it > non-original and a mongrel :-) What happened if you bought it as a kit? Was there a serial number label included in the kit? Perhaps it was never stuck on. -tony From jonas at otter.se Wed Aug 29 12:31:30 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:31:30 +0200 Subject: Wall warts (was Re: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503E51F2.1030004@otter.se> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:28:07 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Of course wall-warts are country specfic in that the mains voltage and > conenctor are different in differnet countries. So I've probably never > seen a modern one intended for use in the USA and thus UL listed > > But the ones we get over here have no protective devices at all. No fuse, > no thermal fuse. If you are lucky, the resistors in a swithc-mode wall > wart are fusible, flameproof types. Most of the time they are not. In Europe, mains devices have to be CE-certified and display the CE mark. But the manufacturers certify themselves that their products are compatible with the regulations, nobody actually tests them unless it is necessary to prove that they do not comply, e.g. if a competitor reports them to the authorities as being non-compatible, or they are suspected of being the cause of an accident, or they are suspected of being fake. Devices made in China may show the "China Export" symbol, which is very like the CE mark and may be easily confused with it (= is meant to be confused with it?) http://www.icqc.co.uk/en/china-export.php but does not mean that the device complies with EU regulations. /Jonas From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Wed Aug 29 18:10:20 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:10:20 -0400 Subject: N8 PCB availability Message-ID: <000c01cd863b$82bd7820$88386860$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Only one of the N8 PCBs remain. Several builders have their and have them working. It is going well so far. Here are some photos of Martin's N8 build http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=N8-2312%20Martin%20Lukasek and some more general information here http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/54039670/N8%20announcement If you would like to get your own N8 PCB please contact me. I will be gathering up boards for another PCB order soon. The PCBs are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send me an email at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 19:49:29 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 17:49:29 -0700 Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? Message-ID: <503EB899.5010707@gmail.com> Anyone know anything about the Microkit 8/16 computer? I just snagged one off eBay (item 390461957738) -- it looked too cool to resist. Looks to be from the mid-70s, 8080-based, and all I can find on the 'net is very basic information. Anyone have manuals or software? There were two others on eBay, but they appear to have been snatched up in the three minutes I spent composing this mail... - Josh From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 20:04:26 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:04:26 -0700 Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: <503EB899.5010707@gmail.com> References: <503EB899.5010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503EBC1A.1030403@gmail.com> On 8/29/2012 5:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone know anything about the Microkit 8/16 computer? I just snagged > one off eBay (item 390461957738) -- it looked too cool to resist. > Looks to be from the mid-70s, 8080-based, and all I can find on the > 'net is very basic information. Anyone have manuals or software? > > There were two others on eBay, but they appear to have been snatched > up in the three minutes I spent composing this mail... > > - Josh I saw those but, a quick google scared me off. Looks like you need those keyboards with the $250 ones he was selling and a CRT they sold to use them. Then you need the tape drives to load the software and the software which may not exist anymore. The $50 one was tempting though. From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 20:10:13 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 01:10:13 +0000 Subject: Acorn Atom - more ebay craziness Message-ID: <501163573-1346289011-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1685198855-@b18.c21.bise6.blackberry> Of course, you know how using ebay for determining the market goes. First sells for exponentially more than common. Another turns up and watch it end at 57.00. ;-) From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 20:11:11 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:11:11 -0700 Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: <503EBC1A.1030403@gmail.com> References: <503EB899.5010707@gmail.com> <503EBC1A.1030403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503EBDAF.1020804@gmail.com> On 8/29/2012 6:04 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 8/29/2012 5:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Anyone know anything about the Microkit 8/16 computer? I just >> snagged one off eBay (item 390461957738) -- it looked too cool to >> resist. Looks to be from the mid-70s, 8080-based, and all I can find >> on the 'net is very basic information. Anyone have manuals or software? >> >> There were two others on eBay, but they appear to have been snatched >> up in the three minutes I spent composing this mail... >> >> - Josh > > I saw those but, a quick google scared me off. Looks like you need > those keyboards with the $250 ones he was selling and a CRT they sold > to use them. Then you need the tape drives to load the software and > the software which may not exist anymore. The $50 one was tempting > though. > The one I purchased has a 5-pin DIN connector labeled "RF Modulator Only" which gives me hope that the video interface is nothing too crazy (probably composite video/TV). The software is of course the million dollar question... - Josh From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 20:27:12 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:27:12 -0700 Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: <503EBDAF.1020804@gmail.com> References: <503EB899.5010707@gmail.com> <503EBC1A.1030403@gmail.com> <503EBDAF.1020804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503EC170.2050401@gmail.com> On 8/29/2012 6:11 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I saw those but, a quick google scared me off. Looks like you need >> those keyboards with the $250 ones he was selling and a CRT they sold >> to use them. Then you need the tape drives to load the software and >> the software which may not exist anymore. The $50 one was tempting >> though. >> > > > The one I purchased has a 5-pin DIN connector labeled "RF Modulator > Only" which gives me hope that the video interface is nothing too > crazy (probably composite video/TV). The software is of course the > million dollar question... > > - Josh If you didn't get a keyboard one I'd beg the seller to connect you with someone that did. Hopefully they will be willing to help you sort out the keyboard at least. It can't be too impossible to recreate. Software for development stuff is always so hard to find though. On cassette tape I can't even imagine. Someone probably reused them for Journey mix tapes. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 29 21:08:36 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:08:36 -0700 Subject: ISO Viewlogic Workview Message-ID: <503ECB24.7010802@bitsavers.org> Someone is trying to look at some old schematics from around 1992 and asked me if I had a copy. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 30 02:24:32 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 01:24:32 -0600 Subject: ISO Viewlogic Workview In-Reply-To: <503ECB24.7010802@bitsavers.org> References: <503ECB24.7010802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503F1530.6050804@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Someone is trying to look at some old schematics from around 1992 and > asked me if I had a copy. Ah, the joys of proprietary file format. I can't help with that, but it is nice to see that Eagle 6 has switched from using proprietary binary file formats for their schematic and PCB layout files to open XML-based file formats. That doesn't necessarily completely solve the problem of being able to deal with the files arbitrarily far in the future, but it does at least potentially make it a lot easier. From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 29 17:37:34 2012 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 23:37:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: from "cctech-request@classiccmp.org" at Aug 29, 2012 12:00:01 pm GMT Message-ID: > Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs? ZCN on the Amstrad NC100 portable. Notable because the NC100 used the Z80 NMI, which you can't normally use on a CP/M system what with it being in the middle of the default File Control Block at 5Ch. So ZCN has to go through some elaborate gymnastics involving saving that byte of the FCB and sticking a RST instruction there instead. -- John Elliott From uridium at deviate.fi Wed Aug 29 23:06:14 2012 From: uridium at deviate.fi (..I'd rather be coding ASM!) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 07:06:14 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [N8VEM: 14532] N8 PCB availability In-Reply-To: <000c01cd863b$82bd7820$88386860$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000c01cd863b$82bd7820$88386860$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, I'm interested in having a go. Is there a BOM available with most of the parts for the 2312? I can see one for the 2511. Eyeballing the PCB and ticking things off the 2511 isn't hugely efficient :) Al. -- -- Al Boyanich adb -w -P "world> " -k /dev/meta/galaxy/ksyms /dev/god/brain From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Aug 30 05:05:34 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 06:05:34 -0400 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net> Message-ID: <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net> On 08/28/2012 09:19 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 August 2012 22:27, allison wrote: >> PRODOS is Apple (6502) and not Z80 that I know of. > Did I say *anything* about Apple II? No. Did I say PRODOS? No. Did I > in fact say "Pro-DOS" with a hyphen and the first word having only an > initial cap? Did I specify the machine it ran on, give a link to info, > a review of it, a profile of its author and more? I ran all possible combination for Pro-dos here and only the one used by apple comes up. From this side of the pond thats a never heard of. > How strange. Why yes I did. Yes, I carefully spelled out that I was > talking about the SAM Coup? OS. Again never heard here and likely in my generalized comments on vendor and hardware specific OSs. >> For Z80 there is UZIUnix, basically unix for Z80s and best used with a >> memory mapped system with a lot of ram. > Erm, how is that a CP/M clone or CP/M-compatible? > There is a version that has the CP/M api and will run CP/M programs. But the first appearance of the question was ANY Z80 OS. Allison From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Aug 30 05:27:27 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:27:27 +0100 Subject: Forward Electronics KS1-NCD 123KEY SUN TYPE 5 Keyboard Message-ID: <503F400F.8060606@wickensonline.co.uk> Anyone have any experience with these keyboards? I'd be interested in knowing whether the differ significantly in feel compared to the standard type 5. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Forward-Electronics-KS1-NCD-123KEY-SUN-TYPE-5-Keyboard-/330355544918 Thanks, Mark -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 08:09:24 2012 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 09:09:24 -0400 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net> References: <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net> <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net> Message-ID: There's also MSX-DOS 1. While the overall user interface was more like MS-DOS, at least version 1.x was more or less binary compatible with CP/M, provided that the CP/M files were copied to a FAT-format floppy. MSX-DOS 2, however, added many more features of MS-DOS 2.x and 3.x and was somewhat less CP/M compatible. Mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 08:36:00 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:36:00 -0500 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <503F6C40.70506@gmail.com> On 08/29/2012 02:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro. >> >> Yes, quite a few - plus various self-contained machines which used the BBC >> board as an I/O processor. Most of them vanished to landfill years ago, it > > There were also later Torch machines that were stnadalone units without a > BBC micro board. They ere not Z80 based (68K machines IIRC). But you > mentioend hte Graduate which wasn't a Z80 machine either (8088 MS-DOS > coprocessor of the beeb) so I guess you're conisdering all their products. Yeah, I kind of strayed into non-Z80 territory :-) It was more a case of pointing out that Torch made quite a vast range of stuff, but often the Communicator and the twin-floppy units are the only things that people have seen. >> seems, and are quite rare these days (mainly because they didn't have any >> particular following back in the day, so nobody kept hold of them). >> >> I've still got examples of all their boards, and a Graduate, and I think I >> kept a 725 - but I got shot of my disc packs[1] and C-series machine. > > _All_ their boards? I am impressed. A quad-X is not at all easy to find... Well, I really meant just their beeb-related stuff, but I do have a Quad-X. I actually had two, but one's at Bletchley these days. I never did have a TPW or a Quad-Y though, so the collection never was complete :-) >> Yes, no experience there myself... I think I've only ever used an Einstein >> for about 5 minutes :) > > I've got an Eitstein, but I've never done much XtalDos hackeing. It does > feel a lot like CP/M and from what I recall when a friend ported Fig > Forth and Argon chess to the Eintein there were not problems at all. Nice machines, from what I recall - it's a shame they didn't catch on, but I suppose they were just too late into the game. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 09:12:02 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 07:12:02 -0700 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: References: , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, Message-ID: The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told it was based on the 68K CPM that was mostly C code. If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work. One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232. I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but it can use up to 512K. There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run. Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in our group get it. Dwight From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 09:36:17 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:36:17 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 August 2012 23:37, John Elliott wrote: >> Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs? > > ZCN on the Amstrad NC100 portable. Notable because the NC100 used the Z80 > NMI, which you can't normally use on a CP/M system what with it being in > the middle of the default File Control Block at 5Ch. So ZCN has to go > through some elaborate gymnastics involving saving that byte of the FCB and > sticking a RST instruction there instead. I did not know that! I even have one of those, purchased a year or so back as part of the research for this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/10/portable_writing_tool/ If only it took CF or SD cards & I could get stuff on and off it without fiddling about, I'd use the thing. Ditto my Z88. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 30 12:00:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:00:59 -0700 Subject: ISO Viewlogic Workview In-Reply-To: <503F1530.6050804@brouhaha.com> References: <503ECB24.7010802@bitsavers.org> <503F1530.6050804@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <503F9C4B.9010101@bitsavers.org> On 8/30/12 12:24 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> Someone is trying to look at some old schematics from around 1992 and >> asked me if I had a copy. > > Ah, the joys of proprietary file format. > I spotted this. We'll see if it can be made to work. http://www.ebay.com/itm/190504567306 > I can't help with that, but it is nice to see that Eagle 6 has switched from using proprietary binary file formats for their schematic and PCB layout files to open XML-based file formats. That doesn't > necessarily completely solve the problem of being able to deal with the files arbitrarily far in the future, but it does at least potentially make it a lot easier. > This is like all of the HP1000 manual source files CHM has in Interleaf format. From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Aug 30 12:09:52 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 13:09:52 -0400 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net> <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <503F9E60.1040600@verizon.net> On 08/30/2012 09:09 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > There's also MSX-DOS 1. While the overall user interface was more like > MS-DOS, at least version 1.x was more or less binary compatible with > CP/M, provided that the CP/M files were copied to a FAT-format floppy. > MSX-DOS 2, however, added many more features of MS-DOS 2.x and 3.x and > was somewhat less CP/M compatible. > > Mike > Since M$dos has a user interface that was a superset of CP/M And MSXdos is like M$dos then CP/M and MSXdos had near identical user interfaces. Correct? The problem with MSXdos was it's machine specific and rare. I'd love to play with it bout only if I can launch it on some hardware on hand. Being hardware specific and no docs doing that is difficult. Actually if the file system is different then 100% CP/M compatibility is not likely as there were a few apps out there that did work at the underlying system level and would brake if it found a differnt disk file layout. For most high level applications this was usually not an issue until things like terminal compatibility were encountered. Allison From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Aug 30 04:06:02 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:06:02 +0200 Subject: ISO Viewlogic Workview In-Reply-To: <503ECB24.7010802@bitsavers.org> References: <503ECB24.7010802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <503F2CFA.3070001@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 30.08.2012 04:08, schrieb Al Kossow: > Someone is trying to look at some old schematics from around 1992 and > asked me if I had a copy. > > ISO alone is not sufficient, this software (at least at the time I used it at the university around 1985) required a copy protection plug in the centronics port. Regards -- Holger From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 30 15:44:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:44:40 -0400 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: References: , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2012 10:12 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told it was based on the 68K > CPM that was mostly C code. > If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the > monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a > replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work. > One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232. > I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but > it can use up to 512K. > There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run. > Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in > our group get it. I'll see if I can grab it. I've done a bunch with Z8000s (both chips and systems built around them) and I like them. I'll see if I can bring it back to life somehow. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 16:21:25 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:21:25 -0700 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> References: , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On 08/30/2012 10:12 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told it was based on the 68K > > CPM that was mostly C code. > > If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the > > monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a > > replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work. > > One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232. > > I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but > > it can use up to 512K. > > There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run. > > Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in > > our group get it. > > I'll see if I can grab it. I've done a bunch with Z8000s (both chips > and systems built around them) and I like them. I'll see if I can bring > it back to life somehow. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Hi Dave There is quite a bit of stuff on line. If it uses the 360 drive ( rated at 320 forthe M20 ). We can transfer a lot of software to it from archives.We have many manuals, some in Italian but most have English versions.We have a schamatic that is mostly correct.Do a search and you see it all.Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 30 16:27:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:27:57 -0400 Subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000 In-Reply-To: References: , , <503D37D8.4040209@verizon.net>, , , , <503F3AEE.6000404@verizon.net>, , , , <503FD0B8.2080907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <503FDADD.3010700@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2012 05:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > From: mcguire at neurotica.com >> >> On 08/30/2012 10:12 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told it was based on the 68K >>> CPM that was mostly C code. >>> If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the >>> monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a >>> replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work. >>> One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232. >>> I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but >>> it can use up to 512K. >>> There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run. >>> Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in >>> our group get it. >> >> I'll see if I can grab it. I've done a bunch with Z8000s (both chips >> and systems built around them) and I like them. I'll see if I can bring >> it back to life somehow. >> > Hi Dave There is quite a bit of stuff on line. If it uses the 360 drive ( rated at 320 forthe M20 ). We can transfer a lot of software to it from archives.We have many manuals, some in Italian but most have English versions.We have a schamatic that is mostly correct.Do a search and you see it all.Dwight Cool. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 30 16:36:27 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:36:27 -0700 Subject: monitor arcing? In-Reply-To: <1346218200.84592.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1346218200.84592.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com > > dark powdery residue around power switch. 1986. Simple arcing or an indication of something worse? It might also be dried up contact grease.Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 16:09:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:09:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wall warts (was Re: LPC1768 tiny terminal emulator) In-Reply-To: <503E51F2.1030004@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 29, 12 07:31:30 pm Message-ID: > In Europe, mains devices have to be CE-certified and display the CE mark. I beleive it's only those 'offered for sale'. Homebrew devices have to comply with certain regulations,but they don't need to have a CE mark on them. > But the manufacturers certify themselves that their products are > compatible with the regulations, nobody actually tests them unless it is > necessary to prove that they do not comply, e.g. if a competitor reports This (rather ridiculous) way of 'testing' has led to conspircy theories that the big manufacturers have formed a cartel where they agree not to report each other, but they do report (and thus eliminate) other comepetiors, particualrly smaller companies. Sicen the testing is so expesnive (either to have the equipment to do it yourself, or to have it doene), said large companies are unlikely to be reported by anyone else. Even getting the standards you have to cvomply with is expensive (and not easy). > them to the authorities as being non-compatible, or they are suspected > of being the cause of an accident, or they are suspected of being fake. > Devices made in China may show the "China Export" symbol, which is very > like the CE mark and may be easily confused with it (= is meant to be > confused with it?) http://www.icqc.co.uk/en/china-export.php but does > not mean that the device complies with EU regulations. This is bl**dy ridiculous.... I was under the distinct impression there were lwas (at least in the UK) prohibiting the use of 'similar' logos and trademarks which could confuse the customer. We have just had a certain event in East London. It's been called the 'Stratford Sports Day' because the organisers have come down heavily on anyone who used the O-word without permission. Some reported cases of that were silly. And yed it appears that yuu can put a logo on soemthing that is likely to be confused with a similar logo indicating that the product complies with various safety standards. That strikes me as a lot more serious. Why is this allowed? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 16:22:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:22:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: <503EBDAF.1020804@gmail.com> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 29, 12 06:11:11 pm Message-ID: > The one I purchased has a 5-pin DIN connector labeled "RF Modulator > Only" which gives me hope that the video interface is nothing too crazy I cna think of no sane reason to use an RF modulator with anything other than a TV-rate video signal. And depending on coutry of origin, the signal will either nbe 525 line RS170 or 625 lin system B/G/I (all much the smae for this purpose). Neither are hard to find something to display them. I would guess the DIN socket carries ground, composite video and a power supply line (12V?). I shouldn't be hard to trace them -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 16:42:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:42:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: <503F6C40.70506@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 30, 12 08:36:00 am Message-ID: > Yeah, I kind of strayed into non-Z80 territory :-) It was more a case of > pointing out that Torch made quite a vast range of stuff, but often the > Communicator and the twin-floppy units are the only things that people have > seen. Somewhwere I have Torch lightpen for the Beeb. The lightpen itself is a well-made anodised aluminuim thing, and I am pretty sure it was a commercial device not made by Torch. It ends i a 5 pi nDIN plug with the right pinput to fit a Gemini (Nascom++) video board.. The itenrfce is a cheap plastc box that plugs into the 'aanlogue port' of the Beeb, from which it draws 5V power. Of course the ligthpen output is fet into the apporpirate pin of said port and thus to the 6845 in tge beeb. The interface is essentially a switching regualtor to get the 12V needed fo the lightpen from the 5V supply. [Tatung Einstein] > Nice machines, from what I recall - it's a shame they didn't catch on, but > I suppose they were just too late into the game. It has some features in common with the BBC micro, but of course it's Z80 based. From what I remember : The processor is a Z80A with 64K DRAM and a boot ROM which can be swtiched in in place of 16K of said RAM. There's a fairly complete machine code monitor (called 'MOS' (!)) in the ROM. It even has commands to read and write disk sectors. One crazy feature, IIRC, is that this ROM swithcing is controleld by a toggle flip-flip. A reference to a particualr port address will swith hte ROM in if it's currently out and vice versa. There's no way to force the ROM to be mapped in (other than a hardware reset, whcih clears the flip-flop) or out. I seem ot remember the Capp Lock LED is controlled in the same way which emans if you toggle the FF once from your program (and change nothing else), the LED will be in the wrong state until the next hardware reset. The I/O chips include an AY-3-8910 sound chip. The poerts of this go to the keyboard (scanned in software). A Z80A-PIO provides a Centroincs pritner port and a user port. An 8251 provides an RS2232 port (with a Z80A-CTC as the baud rate generator). The RS232 port is on a 5 pin quincuncial DIN plug, but wired so that flipping it over does a null-modem swap. The DSR and DTR signals are buffered ot RS23 levels and end up on labelled solder pads on the PCB. An ADC0844 chip provided 4 analogue input channels, offocially for 2 joysticks. There are seaprate DIN connectors for the 2 joysticks, not a common connector as on the Beeb There is no cassette port, a floppy controller (WD1770) is standard. So is a single 3" drive. There is space for another internal drive, and a connecotr for exeenal drives. I think you can have up too 4 drives total. It's a standard shugart bus, so you cna add 3.5" or 5.25" drives. The video system uses the 50Hz version of the TMS9918 (I forget the number) with 16K of video RAM There is a PAL wencoder and RF modualtor on the board. There is also a montiutor csocket. Internal links select between RGB and YUV on this connector, the latter being the factory setting. This video system is what lets te machine down compared to the BBC micro, there is no 80 column text mode. There was an 80 column text-only add-on (it used a 6845 + RAM + cahracter genrator + glue logic), but it's not at all easy to find. It is supported by the monitor ROM, though. -tony > > cheers > > Jules > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 30 16:46:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:46:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Aug 30, 12 03:36:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 August 2012 23:37, John Elliott wrote: > >> Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs? > > > > ZCN on the Amstrad NC100 portable. Notable because the NC100 used the Z80 > > NMI, which you can't normally use on a CP/M system what with it being in > > the middle of the default File Control Block at 5Ch. So ZCN has to go > > through some elaborate gymnastics involving saving that byte of the FCB and > > sticking a RST instruction there instead. > > I did not know that! I even have one of those, purchased a year or so > back as part of the research for this article: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/10/portable_writing_tool/ > > If only it took CF or SD cards & I could get stuff on and off it > without fiddling about, I'd use the thing. Ditto my Z88. I believe both units were made long befroe there _were_ CF or SD cards, so I don't see how they could have used them :-) Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can get text off them that way? I do remember trying a Z88 once. The keyboard put be off ever wanting to use it for anything serious. I stuck with my M100... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 30 16:47:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: monitor arcing? In-Reply-To: References: <1346218200.84592.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120830144721.A23919@shell.lmi.net> > > dark powdery residue around power switch. 1986. Simple arcing or an > > indication of something worse? > It might also be dried up contact grease.Dwight grimy users? From colineby at isallthat.com Thu Aug 30 17:18:16 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 23:18:16 +0100 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> All, especially Tony, I'm getting ready to power up a PERQ 1a which has been sitting for a while (5+ years). I have no reason to believe it has any faults. I've done the obvious prep, like unparking the disk, and removing the locking screw. And I will need to build a dummy load to retest the power supply. Are there any other gotchas or quirks I should be aware of? I have no previous experience with this model, and would err on the side of leaving it dormant rather than proceeding blindly. -- Colin From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 17:35:58 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:35:58 -0700 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> References: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > All, especially Tony, > > I'm getting ready to power up a PERQ 1a which has been sitting for a > while (5+ years). I have no reason to believe it has any faults. I've > done the obvious prep, like unparking the disk, and removing the locking > screw. And I will need to build a dummy load to retest the power > supply. Are there any other gotchas or quirks I should be aware of? I > have no previous experience with this model, and would err on the side > of leaving it dormant rather than proceeding blindly. > > -- Colin > Congrats on finding an amazing classic machine! :) Tony I'm sure will be along with some useful advice shortly (he is by far the expert on PERQ hardware). I'm here to make a request for you when you do get the machine up and running: I'm always looking for more software to run on my PERQ (and the emulator PERQemu that I occasionally find time to hack on). If you have any PERQ software (on floppy or otherwise) I'd like to make sure it gets archived. I have a simple utility for dumping PERQ hard disks over the serial port if you're willing to contribute to the cause :). Thanks, Josh From colineby at isallthat.com Thu Aug 30 18:41:30 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 00:41:30 +0100 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: References: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> Josh, I'll be trying to prepare the machine as a dynamic museum display. As part of that process, I'll be going through the existing archive to identify what's there in detail. I have a summary list. I'll pass on a listing of what diskettes are there as soon as I have a chance to go through them. Before using them on the live system (assuming everything comes back to life without too much jiggery pokery) I'll be attempting to Catweasel the diskettes as a backup. Typically I store files in a raw MFM serialisation format so they can always be re-postprocessed into a specific image type later. We have a stable rig set up for the purpose. Depending on the licensing limitations of the software I discover, and the determination of the museums archivist, I may be able to share those images officially. Personally I'm all for Al's share everything approach. But the museum has legal niceties to address, and that's the purview of our archivist. Be assured, we are doing tactical scanning and imaging, and planning for a pervasive approach -- it's just down to money as always (all cash donations welcome -- www.tnmoc.org!) As for backing off the hard disk over serial -- I'd love to have a go with that. If the system is run regularly, it will be important to have a backup. Fair warning all of this is somewhat speculative for the moment. I'm just gathering advice and documentation. The PERQ is part of an exhibit area I'll attempting to breath life back into. Currently, in this room, we've revived an HP K-class, IBM 5362, IBM 6150RT, DECMate III and Cray Y-MP EL. On the fix list are the PDP 8, PDP 11/70, PERQ, Sun 6500, Xerox 860, HP 9845 and a number of other goodies. The PERQ's the next on the list. However, this gallery is just one project strand out of half a dozen I'm tied up on, so please be patient with me. I'll share as much as I can as soon as I can. Just at the moment, my primary focus is on the IBM 7090 archive -- and preparing for that. I have hard dates to meet for that project, so I other tasks end up taking longer. However, with a following wind, I should get cracking on the PERQ archive listing this weekend, and maybe work through the power supply. On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 15:35 -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > > > All, especially Tony, > > > > I'm getting ready to power up a PERQ 1a which has been sitting for a > > while (5+ years). I have no reason to believe it has any faults. I've > > done the obvious prep, like unparking the disk, and removing the locking > > screw. And I will need to build a dummy load to retest the power > > supply. Are there any other gotchas or quirks I should be aware of? I > > have no previous experience with this model, and would err on the side > > of leaving it dormant rather than proceeding blindly. > > > > -- Colin > > > > Congrats on finding an amazing classic machine! :) Tony I'm sure will be > along with some useful advice shortly (he is by far the expert on PERQ > hardware). > > I'm here to make a request for you when you do get the machine up and > running: I'm always looking for more software to run on my PERQ (and the > emulator PERQemu that I occasionally find time to hack on). If you have > any PERQ software (on floppy or otherwise) I'd like to make sure it gets > archived. I have a simple utility for dumping PERQ hard disks over the > serial port if you're willing to contribute to the cause :). > > Thanks, > Josh > -- Colin From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 30 19:03:37 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:03:37 -0700 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> References: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <503FFF59.3050208@bitsavers.org> On 8/30/12 4:41 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > I'll be attempting > to Catweasel the diskettes as a backup. One thing to watch out for is the first track is unformatted. This freaks out a number of imaging programs, who assume the entire disk is unreadable if the first track couldn't be read. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 30 19:06:13 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:06:13 -0700 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> References: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <503FFFF5.2030108@bitsavers.org> On 8/30/12 4:41 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Be assured, we are doing tactical > scanning and imaging, and planning for a pervasive approach do you have the documentation for the Micropolis disk drive and custom PERQ interface board? Will Donzelli sent me a drive, and I realized once I looked at it that I have no way to do anything with it without documentation. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 20:11:37 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:11:37 -0700 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> References: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <50400F49.4040502@gmail.com> On 8/30/2012 4:41 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Josh, > > I'll be trying to prepare the machine as a dynamic museum display. As > part of that process, I'll be going through the existing archive to > identify what's there in detail. I have a summary list. I'll pass on a > listing of what diskettes are there as soon as I have a chance to go > through them. Before using them on the live system (assuming everything > comes back to life without too much jiggery pokery) I'll be attempting > to Catweasel the diskettes as a backup. Typically I store files in a > raw MFM serialisation format so they can always be re-postprocessed into > a specific image type later. We have a stable rig set up for the > purpose. Depending on the licensing limitations of the software I > discover, and the determination of the museums archivist, I may be able > to share those images officially. Personally I'm all for Al's share > everything approach. But the museum has legal niceties to address, and > that's the purview of our archivist. Be assured, we are doing tactical > scanning and imaging, and planning for a pervasive approach -- it's just > down to money as always (all cash donations welcome -- www.tnmoc.org!) > As for backing off the hard disk over serial -- I'd love to have a go > with that. If the system is run regularly, it will be important to have > a backup. Very cool. Let me know if you need my utilities, I can supply them as Pascal source (which you can compile yourself if you end up with a working POS system) or a bootable POS disk. I'll keep my fingers crossed that you'll be able to release your archives. > > Fair warning all of this is somewhat speculative for the moment. I'm > just gathering advice and documentation. > > The PERQ is part of an exhibit area I'll attempting to breath life back > into. Currently, in this room, we've revived an HP K-class, IBM 5362, > IBM 6150RT, DECMate III and Cray Y-MP EL. On the fix list are the PDP > 8, PDP 11/70, PERQ, Sun 6500, Xerox 860, HP 9845 and a number of other > goodies. The PERQ's the next on the list. However, this gallery is just > one project strand out of half a dozen I'm tied up on, so please be > patient with me. I'll share as much as I can as soon as I can. Just at > the moment, my primary focus is on the IBM 7090 archive -- and preparing > for that. I have hard dates to meet for that project, so I other tasks > end up taking longer. However, with a following wind, I should get > cracking on the PERQ archive listing this weekend, and maybe work > through the power supply. Sounds very cool, the PERQ deserves some museum-level attention :). Where is this museum located? Thanks! Josh From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 20:42:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: monitor arcing? Message-ID: <1346377378.52992.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> nicotine stained fingers? ------------------------------ On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 2:47 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote: >> > dark powdery residue around power switch. 1986. Simple arcing or an >> > indication of something worse? >> It might also be dried up contact grease.Dwight > >grimy users? > > > From colineby at isallthat.com Fri Aug 31 02:08:38 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 08:08:38 +0100 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <50400F49.4040502@gmail.com> References: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> <50400F49.4040502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <13578b9a-9527-4368-bb86-2fb2f08f8c87@email.android.com> Josh, The museum is The National Museum of Computing, at Bletchley Park, UK -- www.tnmoc.org. Our displays include not just the PERQ 1 (and the T2 next to it), but a range other ICL computers including a 2966 mainframe. If you get a chance to visit, let me know. I'd love to show you around. Josh Dersch wrote: >On 8/30/2012 4:41 PM, Colin Eby wrote: >> Josh, >> >> I'll be trying to prepare the machine as a dynamic museum display. >As >> part of that process, I'll be going through the existing archive to >> identify what's there in detail. I have a summary list. I'll pass >on a >> listing of what diskettes are there as soon as I have a chance to go >> through them. Before using them on the live system (assuming >everything >> comes back to life without too much jiggery pokery) I'll be >attempting >> to Catweasel the diskettes as a backup. Typically I store files in a >> raw MFM serialisation format so they can always be re-postprocessed >into >> a specific image type later. We have a stable rig set up for the >> purpose. Depending on the licensing limitations of the software I >> discover, and the determination of the museums archivist, I may be >able >> to share those images officially. Personally I'm all for Al's share >> everything approach. But the museum has legal niceties to address, >and >> that's the purview of our archivist. Be assured, we are doing >tactical >> scanning and imaging, and planning for a pervasive approach -- it's >just >> down to money as always (all cash donations welcome -- >www.tnmoc.org!) >> As for backing off the hard disk over serial -- I'd love to have a go >> with that. If the system is run regularly, it will be important to >have >> a backup. > >Very cool. Let me know if you need my utilities, I can supply them as >Pascal source (which you can compile yourself if you end up with a >working POS system) or a bootable POS disk. I'll keep my fingers >crossed that you'll be able to release your archives. > >> >> Fair warning all of this is somewhat speculative for the moment. I'm >> just gathering advice and documentation. >> >> The PERQ is part of an exhibit area I'll attempting to breath life >back >> into. Currently, in this room, we've revived an HP K-class, IBM >5362, >> IBM 6150RT, DECMate III and Cray Y-MP EL. On the fix list are the >PDP >> 8, PDP 11/70, PERQ, Sun 6500, Xerox 860, HP 9845 and a number of >other >> goodies. The PERQ's the next on the list. However, this gallery is >just >> one project strand out of half a dozen I'm tied up on, so please be >> patient with me. I'll share as much as I can as soon as I can. Just >at >> the moment, my primary focus is on the IBM 7090 archive -- and >preparing >> for that. I have hard dates to meet for that project, so I other >tasks >> end up taking longer. However, with a following wind, I should get >> cracking on the PERQ archive listing this weekend, and maybe work >> through the power supply. > >Sounds very cool, the PERQ deserves some museum-level attention :). >Where is this museum located? > >Thanks! >Josh -- Colin From colineby at isallthat.com Fri Aug 31 02:18:12 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 08:18:12 +0100 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <503FFF59.3050208@bitsavers.org> References: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> <503FFF59.3050208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, Thanks for the advice. It's much appreciated. The rig shouldn't cough on a blank first track (fingers crossed). I use the LINUX tools and libraries principally, along with some track walking glue-code when dealing with un-verified formats. I should be able to scan and re-order tracks arbitrarily. Al Kossow wrote: >On 8/30/12 4:41 PM, Colin Eby wrote: >> I'll be attempting >> to Catweasel the diskettes as a backup. > >One thing to watch out for is the first track is unformatted. >This freaks out a number of imaging programs, who assume the >entire disk is unreadable if the first track couldn't be read. -- Colin From stephen.hunt at iname.com Thu Aug 30 17:55:08 2012 From: stephen.hunt at iname.com (Steve Hunt) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:55:08 -0400 Subject: Autofax Corp Imager, backup PC to VCR tape Message-ID: <20120830225508.6790@gmx.com> I've got this old 8-bit ISA card on my "interesting to try out" list. It's a z80 based "backup to VCR" card by Autofax Corp Imager. The only problem is I've got no software for it. Can anyone help? Interestingly, a dump of the eprom show the text "'MaBr[2.4] (C) 1983-Corvus Systems". Most of the references on the web for this are just adverts http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0...page&q&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0DsEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=%22autofax+corp%22&source=bl&ots=IWX9cbT6KR&sig=5q4Ktq7jcOc3XRYwL6c4trHZlPU&hl=en&ei=hMbCTriFHMSv8QPwvOnnCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 06:22:03 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:22:03 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 August 2012 22:46, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 29 August 2012 23:37, John Elliott wrote: >> >> Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs? >> > >> > ZCN on the Amstrad NC100 portable. Notable because the NC100 used the Z80 >> > NMI, which you can't normally use on a CP/M system what with it being in >> > the middle of the default File Control Block at 5Ch. So ZCN has to go >> > through some elaborate gymnastics involving saving that byte of the FCB and >> > sticking a RST instruction there instead. >> >> I did not know that! I even have one of those, purchased a year or so >> back as part of the research for this article: >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/10/portable_writing_tool/ >> >> If only it took CF or SD cards & I could get stuff on and off it >> without fiddling about, I'd use the thing. Ditto my Z88. > > I believe both units were made long befroe there _were_ CF or SD cards, > so I don't see how they could have used them :-) They were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable. > Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can get text off them that > way? As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for about 25 years now. All that fscking around with baud rates and straight-through versus null-modem cables and so on was a massive nightmare in the 1980s and it is worse now. I have not used a plain serial device for about 15 years and that is just fine. I *VERY* occasionally use proprietary modified-serial connectors, such as Psion's, and it's still a PITA to get it working and talking to a modern computer. I know you don't like it, because you choose to live in the past, but I really like USB for this. Right now, I have 4 computers on or under this desk, 2 more on the coffee table, another standing by the sofa, and 4 laptops by the bed, and all talk USB. Only 1 is so old that it just has USB2 - all the others either have USB2 onboard or a PCI USB2 card fitted. Virtually all of them have Firewire for fast external storage, too. I have read of problems with it, but for me, USB has been remarkably plain sailing since the first machine I saw with it - an IBM desktop PC in about late 1994/early 1995 which had these two unlabelled ports on the back fascia, with a strange little trident logo next to it. Nothing drove these ports - the machine came with Windows for Workgroups 3.11 - nothing identified them and they were glossed over in the documentation. I eventually managed to trace a reference and found they were a proposed new standard bus from Intel. I put the beta of Windows 4.0 "Chicago" on the machine and they were identified, but I had nothing to connect to them. For the next 4 years, the ports stayed obscure and few devices supported them. Then the iMac launched in 1998, having no other general-purpose ports /except/ USB, and suddenly, /everyone/ supported it and it took off like a rocket. Me, I have loved it since Win95. I still used parallel-port devices from the mid-1990s to the end of the century and then they, happily, went away too. It's great. Keyboards, mice, tablets, trackballs, trackpads, printers, phones, PDAs, card readers, floppy drives, hard drives, optical drives, scanners, multifunction devices, all-in-one devices, modems, network adapters, displays, everything has one type of cable and one type of port and you plug it in and it just works. I love it. This is how computers /should/ be. I still love the old stuff and retrocomputing, but I also have work to do, and life is too short for parity bits and stop bits and guessing how many data bits and trying to find a baud rate both ends can handle and software handshaking versus hardware handshaking and what kind of UART do you have and is your cable wired correctly and which of 42 "standard" connectors are you using. At least eventually 9600,n,8,1 worked for most things most of the time. Slowly. If you were lucky. Maybe. The serial port is /the/ single aspect of 1980s (& pre-1980s) computing I have been most glad to see go. Never again. > I do remember trying a Z88 once. The keyboard put be off ever wanting to > use it for anything serious. I stuck with my M100... It's not great, but it's very quiet but big enough and tactile enough to touch-type on /in total silence./ The Amstrad NC100 is a proper keyboard; it feels better, but you clack and rattle away on it. Distracting if you're a journo taking notes. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jws at jwsss.com Fri Aug 31 07:56:54 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 05:56:54 -0700 Subject: Autofax Corp Imager, backup PC to VCR tape In-Reply-To: <20120830225508.6790@gmx.com> References: <20120830225508.6790@gmx.com> Message-ID: <5040B496.9020905@jwsss.com> On 8/30/2012 3:55 PM, Steve Hunt wrote: > I've got this old 8-bit ISA card on my "interesting to try out" list. Corvus had a videotape backup and then later a device called the Bank, but the processing for what hardware I saw was "dumb" just support logic. The cpu of the PC did the heavy lifting. The Bank used a corvus network node, I think to communicate, so there was only a corvus net card in the backup server and software to support the bank hardware. I think Alpha Micro had a product too. Their surplus showed up here in Orange County for a while when they crashed and burned but no software, sorry, also they had no coprocessor either. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 31 11:16:32 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 09:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Autofax Corp Imager, backup PC to VCR tape In-Reply-To: <5040B496.9020905@jwsss.com> from jim s at "Aug 31, 12 05:56:54 am" Message-ID: <201208311616.q7VGGWjE9830626@floodgap.com> > I think Alpha Micro had a product too. Yep. Most of their early machines had VCR backup interfaces, and you could buy an ISA one with a special VCR. Mine was stolen recently out of my storage unit. :-/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters to moving crew: "Hey! Careful with that box, Eugene!" --------- From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Aug 31 12:24:41 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 17:24:41 +0000 Subject: Autofax Corp Imager, backup PC to VCR tape Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251ED62D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > I've got this old 8-bit ISA card on my "interesting to try out" list. > Corvus had a videotape backup and then later a device called the Bank, > but the processing for what hardware I saw was "dumb" just support > logic. The cpu of the PC did the heavy lifting. > The Bank used a corvus network node, I think to communicate, so there > was only a corvus net card in the backup server and software to support > the bank hardware. > I think Alpha Micro had a product too. Their surplus showed up here in > Orange County for a while when they crashed and burned but no software, > sorry, also they had no coprocessor either. And a little higher up on the mini scale, Digidata had a product called the "Gigastore" that was a VHS tape unit interfaced by a Q-bus card and a variant of the Pertec Formatted (two 50 pin cable) tape interface popular for 9-track and some other drives. I used and recovered data from these way back in the 90's. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 31 12:48:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 10:48:40 -0700 Subject: Autofax Corp Imager, backup PC to VCR tape In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251ED62D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251ED62D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50409688.21366.75B9D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2012 at 17:24, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > I've got this old 8-bit ISA card on my "interesting to try out" > > list. Corvus had a videotape backup and then later a device called > > the Bank, but the processing for what hardware I saw was "dumb" just > > support logic. The cpu of the PC did the heavy lifting. The Bank > > used a corvus network node, I think to communicate, so there was > > only a corvus net card in the backup server and software to support > > the bank hardware. I think Alpha Micro had a product too. Their > > surplus showed up here in Orange County for a while when they > > crashed and burned but no software, sorry, also they had no > > coprocessor either. > > And a little higher up on the mini scale, Digidata had a product > called the "Gigastore" that was a VHS tape unit interfaced by a Q-bus > card and a variant of the Pertec Formatted (two 50 pin cable) tape > interface popular for 9-track and some other drives. I used and > recovered data from these way back in the 90's. I briefly used one of the Corvus cards with a VHS machine. It wasn't that great--I moved to a QIC backup system and never looked back. I think I gave away the card, but I may still have the software somewhere. I'll have a look when I get a chance. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Aug 31 13:05:07 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 18:05:07 +0000 Subject: Immutable standards (was Re: CP/M clones & compatible OSes) Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251ED67B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> >> I believe both units were made long befroe there _were_ CF or SD cards, >> so I don't see how they could have used them :-) > They were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for > earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable. >> Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can get text off them that >> way? > As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your > bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for > about 25 years now. [...] I really like USB for this. I would propose, as an immutable standard medium for cctalk-relevant micros and some minis, neither SD, nor CF, nor USB. I would propose 110 Baud ASCII via 20mA current loop. Of course that starts off the religious wars as to whether that key in the left corner of the Model 33 ASR is properly labeled "ESC" or "Alt Mode". Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 31 13:43:46 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:43:46 -0600 Subject: Immutable standards (was Re: CP/M clones & compatible OSes) In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251ED67B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251ED67B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <504105E2.8040709@brouhaha.com> Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Of course that starts off the religious wars as to whether that key in > the left corner of the Model 33 ASR is properly labeled "ESC" or "Alt > Mode". Tim. Ignoring parity, does it send octal 033, 175, or 176 (hex 1B, 7D, or 7E)? And do you want to know that with regard to ASCII X3.4-1963, or USASCII X3.4-1967? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 13:18:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:18:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <1346365096.7836.16.camel@hp0> from "Colin Eby" at Aug 30, 12 11:18:16 pm Message-ID: > > All, especially Tony, Fortunately my love of classic computers, expecially classic PERQs, well exceeds my dislike of certain organisations :-) > I'm getting ready to power up a PERQ 1a which has been sitting for a > while (5+ years). I have no reason to believe it has any faults. I've > done the obvious prep, like unparking the disk, and removing the locking It's probably too late to say this, but you shouldn't remvoe the lcoking clip from the postioner on the SA4000 winchester drive until it's spinning. It's too easy to move the heads as you pull the clip out, and doing tha on a stationary disk is not the best idea. Although to be fari, these drives are pretty solid, and it's hard to wreck them. > screw. And I will need to build a dummy load to retest the power The power supply is one of those infernal Boaschert 2-stage ones. However, it doesn't seem to need a dummy load to regulate correctly. You can run it with no load and it should be fine. > supply. Are there any other gotchas or quirks I should be aware of? I > have no previous experience with this model, and would err on the side > of leaving it dormant rather than proceeding blindly. atmittedly the PERQ 1 was the last (of 4) PERQs that I obtained, but I also had to start PWERQ repaires with no knowledge :-). I apologise if I mention things that are obvious. Some things seem obvious to me, but I then find after much emailing to and fro that this was the problem. Tke the casing off first. I guess you've done that., though. If you haven't, the front and rear panels come off first, then the sides. THis frees the top cover over the floppy drive, etc. There are interlock switches that prevent the machine pwoering up with the front and rear panels removed. They;re those standard white ones found in a lot of machinesm, and you can pull thje actuators out a little way to turn them on, so you can run the machine with the cover removed. The PSU is under the main card cage, and is a right pain to get to. Basically you have to remvoe the card cage. So to save a bit of time, you can test it without removing it : Unplug the ribbon cables from the front of the CIO board. The top one goes to the floppy drive (SA850 pinout), the bottom one ot the wincheter. Lable them if you are not sure. Then pull the boards out of the card cage. You don't bneed to remvoe them all the way, jsut make sure they don't connect to the backplane. There are 3 boards i na normal PERQ, form the left they are the CPU, then the memory (and video) and finally the CIO board (input/output, disk controllers, etc). If you are very fortuantel there's a 4th vaord on the right of these. That's the OIO (Optional Input/Ouptu). It adds a 16 bit parallel interface (a bit like a DEC DR11-C [1]), and oen or both of ethernet (which is not standard on PERQ 1 and 1a models) and Canon CX laser pritner interface. There are other boards that could be inthat slot (like a QIC-02 tape interface or a Datacopy 300 camera controller), but you are very unlikely to see those. Now disconenct the DC power cables from the floppy drive nad winchester. Unplug the AC cables to the motors if you like, in fact the Winchester motor cable should have been unplugged when the spindle locking scrrew was fitted. HAve noting plugged into any of the D connectors o nthe backplane At this point there.is nothign conencted to the DC output of the PSU. Connect mains, with the interlocs pulled out, the breaker closed, flip the little switch on the front./ The fans should start up. If that's OK, check the DC voltages on the labelled traces on the backplane. It's rarew for them to be out of tolerance. Eitehr they are OK, or they're all missing. If nthe latter case, you have to work o nthe PSU, whioch I can explain when you need to do it. For the moment I will assume the PSU is OK. Power down. and remvoe the mains lead. Put the logic boards back in, connect the keyboard ot the appropriate conenctor on the backplane. On the underside of the keyboard is a 3 digit 7 segment display. Power up again and press and release the reset button on the back of the keyboard. Look at that display. if it gets to 010, then the CPU has passed power-on diagnositcs, and is attmpting to load microcode from disk. If not, you haev some logic faultfinding to do. Power down, reconenct the drive data ables to the CIO board and the drive power cables. Conenct the monitor to the correct conenctor, and power up again. Again blip the reset button. Watch the display. At 030, you should see memory test patterns on the CRT screen. If not, maybe there's a monitor problem. If you are lucky, the machine will complete the boot from the winchester, and you vncan then run whatever OS it's loaded. If not, you might have to re-install thigns from floppy. I've left out a lot of what to do when it doesn't work. What I epxext is you do the above 9which is safe, and will protect the mahcine from amjor damage), adn then get back to me when you ahve problems -- like the PSU is giving no outputs, or the DDC (7 segment display) sticks at 009, or whatever. THen I can help uou further. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 13:23:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:23:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 30, 12 03:35:58 pm Message-ID: > Congrats on finding an amazing classic machine! :) Tony I'm sure will be Thaet are _beautiful_. One of my favourite machines. I have 3 of them (The PERQ 3a, AGW330 is not a classic PEERQ IMHO). > along with some useful advice shortly (he is by far the expert on PERQ > hardware). Hmmm....There are some useful manuals on bitsavers, I think. The PERQ 1a uses the same 16K WCS CPU board as the PERQ 2 family, so there's a schematic [1[ of that. I think there's a PERQ 1 scheamtics book on bitsavers too, that will cover msot of the rest of the machine. I have full schematics of everything, let me know if there's any bit you need. [1] There is alos a techref for the CPU. Which reminds me of a little story : 'The lady, seeing her cat relaxing on the rug says "I would lend you my book on zne meditiation, but it appears you have already read it". "DOn't be stupid", purred the cat, "I wrote it" ':-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 13:34:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:34:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> from "Colin Eby" at Aug 31, 12 00:41:30 am Message-ID: > > Josh, > > I'll be trying to prepare the machine as a dynamic museum display. As > part of that process, I'll be going through the existing archive to > identify what's there in detail. I have a summary list. I'll pass on a > listing of what diskettes are there as soon as I have a chance to go > through them. Before using them on the live system (assuming everything > comes back to life without too much jiggery pokery) I'll be attempting > to Catweasel the diskettes as a backup. Typically I store files in a The PERQ disk cotnrolelr is a 765 (8272, whatever). It's normally used in single-density 9FM) mode, and in fact double desinty is 'not certain to work on all machines'. I have yet to find a classic PERQ (any model) where it doesn't. However, distribution disks are likely to be single densisty. It is a normal controlelr using normal data rates, and the drive is a standard SA850. You shouldn't have any problems reading the disks. Making sense of the data is another matter. The PERQ file system is not simple... You might find some disks in 'interchange format'. These are actually very similar to RT11 floopies, with the addition of an extra word (I thin, maye 2 words) to each directoy entry gviign the exact length of the file. RT11 actually lows you to add things to the directoty in this way, and the PERQ did it properyl Interchange disks can be read on RT11 systems. I misssed a footnote out of a previous message relating to the fact that the optional 16 bit parallel interface o nthbe PERQ was DR11-C compatible. What I inteded to say was that in development, PERQs were booted vial this port from a VAX (of maybe even a PDP!1) fitted with a DR11-C. The use of an RT11-cvompatible format for the 'interchange' disks is related to this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 13:42:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:42:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <503FFFF5.2030108@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 30, 12 05:06:13 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/30/12 4:41 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > > Be assured, we are doing tactical > > scanning and imaging, and planning for a pervasive approach > > do you have the documentation for the Micropolis disk drive and > custom PERQ interface board? Will Donzelli sent me a drive, and That cannot be from a PERQ 1a. The PERQ modles that I've come across are : PERQ 1 : 4K WCS CPu (20 bit ALU path), portrait monitor, SA4000 wincheseter drive. CIO board (no ethernet). GPIB tablet PERQ 1a : as PERQ 1, but with the 16K WCS CPU (still 20 bit path) PERQ 2 T1 : 16K CPU. portrait (normally, ladnscape is possible) monitor, revised case design. Micropolis 1203 winchester. EIO board (complete redesign).. Normally Kriz table, but the GPIB oen is possible too. PERQ 2 T2 : As 2 T1, but with a 5.25" ST412-type winchester. Normally a landscape monitor PERQ 2 T4. : As 2 T2, but with a CPU board with 24 bit ALU path. It is very unlikely you have this one PERQ 3a (AGW3300) : A PERQ in name only. It's a 68020 unix box, albeit with a microcoded graphics processor. > I realized once I looked at it that I have no way to do anything > with it without documentation. What sort of drive is it? THe Microposls 1203 (8") was used in the 2T1, the 1300 series (5.25") were used in soem 2T2s. For the 2T2, it's a normal ST412 type of device. although the sector headers will be odd (they contain file system pointers, a la Xerox?). The little interface board (aka 'DIB' == Disk Interface Board) sits on top of the drive. There's a schematic in the 2T2 schematics book on bitsavers. The 8" Micropolis 1203 and its DIB is a bit harder. The 2T1 was partially an ICL design, and AFAI Kthey designed the DIB. There is no known official schematic for the DIB. I have a hand-drawn one, I also have some notes on the drive itself. If you are serious about figuring this out, you'll need the dumps of the PROms and PAL equations. I have tried to send those to you a couple of times, and given up... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 13:55:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:55:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Aug 31, 12 12:22:03 pm Message-ID: > They were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for > earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable. I didn;t think the system bus was availabe on either of these machines. SO making an adapter could be 'interesting'. Didn;'t the Z88 take memeory cartridsges, though? A cartridge to take a flash card would eb intersting... > > > Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can get text off them that > > way? > > As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your > bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for > about 25 years now. All that fscking around with baud rates and > straight-through versus null-modem cables and so on was a massive > nightmare in the 1980s and it is worse now. I have not used a plain How come I never have these sorts of problems? I routinely link RS232 ports together had have no problems. Even on the fitst time of connecting 2 machiens, it often 'just works' > serial device for about 15 years and that is just fine. I *VERY* > occasionally use proprietary modified-serial connectors, such as > Psion's, and it's still a PITA to get it working and talking to a > modern computer. > > I know you don't like it, because you choose to live in the past, but > I really like USB for this. Right now, I have 4 computers on or under I have a reason for disliking USB here, and it's got nothign to do with the age of the interfaces. It's that USB is too 'asymmetirc'. Let me expalin. With RS232, and posslby simpe null modem calbes, I can link my M100, my HP95LX, my Eposn PX4, etc, etc, etc to my PC. I can a also link them to each other. I can, for example, link an HP95LX to my PC nad kermit an intel-hex file to progrma in to na EPROM. I can then take that 95LX to my workbench and plug it into my EPROM programmer nad upload the file. Or I can transfer the file to my M100. Or I can link the M100 striagn to the PC. Or to any of my otehr machines. YOu simply can';t do that with USB. There is no way to link 2 USB mastes or slaves together. USB gets round the problem of null-modme cables by making them impossible, and prventing you from doing the thigns you needed a null modem cable for with RS232. > It's great. Keyboards, mice, tablets, trackballs, trackpads, printers, > phones, PDAs, card readers, floppy drives, hard drives, optical > drives, scanners, multifunction devices, all-in-one devices, modems, > network adapters, displays, everything has one type of cable and one > type of port and you plug it in and it just works. I love it. This is > how computers /should/ be. No ti's not. It makes those staks that the manufacters intend you to do -- plugging in the normal peripehrals -- easy, and other jobs, almost impossible. Since I use computers in unconventional ways, I need to be able to do the latter. > I still love the old stuff and retrocomputing, but I also have work to > do, and life is too short for parity bits and stop bits and guessing > how many data bits and trying to find a baud rate both ends can handle > and software handshaking versus hardware handshaking and what kind of > UART do you have and is your cable wired correctly and which of 42 > "standard" connectors are you using. AS I said earlier, how come I naver have these sorts of problems? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 31 14:19:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 20:19:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Immutable standards (was Re: CP/M clones & compatible OSes) In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251ED67B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> from "Shoppa, Tim" at Aug 31, 12 06:05:07 pm Message-ID: > I would propose, as an immutable standard medium for cctalk-relevant > micros and some minis, neither SD, nor CF, nor USB. > > I would propose 110 Baud ASCII via 20mA current loop. Well, the covneresion for those people who prefer a votlage-level itnerface is pretty simple (a couple of opto-isolators and some discretes), so yes, seems reasoable... -tony From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 14:37:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 20:37:39 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 31 August 2012 19:55, Tony Duell wrote: >> They were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for >> earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable. > > I didn;t think the system bus was availabe on either of these machines. > SO making an adapter could be 'interesting'. Good point, yes. > Didn;'t the Z88 take memeory > cartridsges, though? A cartridge to take a flash card would eb intersting... I did some trivial research into this. The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM. There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash, I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional media readers. The NC100 has a PCMCIA slot, but it can only take 1MB of SRAM and it is used as RAM - there is no filesystem on it, so there's no way to read it on anything else. > I have a reason for disliking USB here, and it's got nothign to do with > the age of the interfaces. It's that USB is too 'asymmetirc'. > > Let me expalin. With RS232, and posslby simpe null modem calbes, I can > link my M100, my HP95LX, my Eposn PX4, etc, etc, etc to my PC. I can a > also link them to each other. I can, for example, link an HP95LX to my PC > nad kermit an intel-hex file to progrma in to na EPROM. I can then take > that 95LX to my workbench and plug it into my EPROM programmer nad upload > the file. Or I can transfer the file to my M100. Or I can link the M100 > striagn to the PC. Or to any of my otehr machines. > > YOu simply can';t do that with USB. There is no way to link 2 USB mastes > or slaves together. USB gets round the problem of null-modme cables by > making them impossible, and prventing you from doing the thigns you > needed a null modem cable for with RS232. Fair point. There are things like USB OTG but it's rarely implemented. OTOH, I've never once wanted to do this... > How come I never have these sorts of problems? I routinely link RS232 > ports together had have no problems. Even on the fitst time of connecting > 2 machiens, it often 'just works' [...] > No ti's not. It makes those staks that the manufacters intend you to do > -- plugging in the normal peripehrals -- easy, and other jobs, almost > impossible. Since I use computers in unconventional ways, I need to be > able to do the latter. > > AS I said earlier, how come I naver have these sorts of problems? I am not saying it's *impossible*. It works, very well in some cases, and it was a long-lived, widely-adopted standard that is of very wide use and applicability. All that I am saying that I find it to be fiddly and irritating -- and failure-prone until you get the settings right on both ends. I didn't like it when it was current and I like it less now. You thrive on such things, I am sure; my hateful administrivia is your fun bit of fettling, and my fun bit of fiddling - e.g. playing with non-traditional x86-32 OSs such as Haiku, AROS and whatnot, installing multiple Linux distros, experimenting with FreeBSD and Solaris and so on -- might well be your wretched waste of time and effort. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 15:17:43 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:17:43 -0700 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: References: <1346370090.7836.57.camel@hp0> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It is a normal controlelr using normal data rates, and the drive is a > standard SA850. You shouldn't have any problems reading the disks. Making > sense of the data is another matter. The PERQ file system is not > simple... > I've written a utility (in C#) that can read, navigate, and copy files from POS filesystem images, both for hard disk images (of 12 or 24-mb SA4000s currently, since I have no images of other drive types) and floppy disk images. Someday I'll add write support, since it'd be very useful for use with PERQemu. It should be pretty trivial to port to whatever language your preference is (or it can run under Mono on Unices.) It does not support RT-11 interchange format disks (yet), but that may be better supported by another utility already out there. Let me know if you want a copy (I really really do need to update my PERQ website to provide this stuff...) - Josh > > You might find some disks in 'interchange format'. These are actually > very similar to RT11 floopies, with the addition of an extra word (I > thin, maye 2 words) to each directoy entry gviign the exact length of the > file. RT11 actually lows you to add things to the directoty in this way, > and the PERQ did it properyl Interchange disks can be read on RT11 > systems. > > I misssed a footnote out of a previous message relating to the fact that > the optional 16 bit parallel interface o nthbe PERQ was DR11-C > compatible. What I inteded to say was that in development, PERQs were > booted vial this port from a VAX (of maybe even a PDP!1) fitted with a > DR11-C. The use of an RT11-cvompatible format for the 'interchange' disks > is related to this. > > -tony > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 31 15:23:27 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:23:27 -0600 Subject: Immutable standards (was Re: CP/M clones & compatible OSes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50411D3F.9030104@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/31/2012 1:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I would propose, as an immutable standard medium for cctalk-relevant >> micros and some minis, neither SD, nor CF, nor USB. >> >> I would propose 110 Baud ASCII via 20mA current loop. > > Well, the covneresion for those people who prefer a votlage-level > itnerface is pretty simple (a couple of opto-isolators and some > discretes), so yes, seems reasoable... > > -tony > I forgot you still need power, make that a 30 ma loop. with 10 ma for the modern devices. Ben. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 15:42:15 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 22:42:15 +0200 Subject: Panasonic HHC technical information In-Reply-To: <1344709217.68944.YahooMailNeo@web140402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1344709217.68944.YahooMailNeo@web140402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:20 PM, ricardo lopes wrote: > Hello, > > I'm trying to understand the intriguing Panasonic HHC. Hello Ricardo and everyone else interested in the Panasonic HHC: Tony's reverse-engineered schematics got scanned by Dave Colver, and I have converted the scans to a PDF file. You can download the file from here: https://sites.google.com/site/joachimthiemann/Home/Panasonic%20HHC%20RL-H1400.pdf Enjoy! Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 31 16:05:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 17:05:11 -0400 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50412707.8030501@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2012 02:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can get text off them that >>> way? >> >> As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your >> bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for >> about 25 years now. All that fscking around with baud rates and >> straight-through versus null-modem cables and so on was a massive >> nightmare in the 1980s and it is worse now. I have not used a plain > > How come I never have these sorts of problems? I routinely link RS232 > ports together had have no problems. Even on the fitst time of connecting > 2 machiens, it often 'just works' That's what I was about to say. Sure, you have to set up a few things...just like driving a car. You have to pull the lever, pull the door, get in, close the door, insert the key, turn the key, release the key at the same time, put it in gear, and drive. That's fewer steps than I think I've ever taking getting something talking via RS232. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From colineby at isallthat.com Fri Aug 31 16:29:35 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 22:29:35 +0100 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony you are a star! Excellent write up. I'm really looking forward to running through your test out process tomorrow. I'll post back what I learn. ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >> All, especially Tony, > >Fortunately my love of classic computers, expecially classic PERQs, >well >exceeds my dislike of certain organisations :-) > >> I'm getting ready to power up a PERQ 1a which has been sitting for a >> while (5+ years). I have no reason to believe it has any faults. >I've >> done the obvious prep, like unparking the disk, and removing the >locking > >It's probably too late to say this, but you shouldn't remvoe the >lcoking >clip from the postioner on the SA4000 winchester drive until it's >spinning. It's too easy to move the heads as you pull the clip out, and > >doing tha on a stationary disk is not the best idea. Although to be >fari, >these drives are pretty solid, and it's hard to wreck them. > >> screw. And I will need to build a dummy load to retest the power > >The power supply is one of those infernal Boaschert 2-stage ones. >However, it doesn't seem to need a dummy load to regulate correctly. >You >can run it with no load and it should be fine. > >> supply. Are there any other gotchas or quirks I should be aware of? >I >> have no previous experience with this model, and would err on the >side >> of leaving it dormant rather than proceeding blindly. > >atmittedly the PERQ 1 was the last (of 4) PERQs that I obtained, but I >also had to start PWERQ repaires with no knowledge :-). > >I apologise if I mention things that are obvious. Some things seem >obvious to me, but I then find after much emailing to and fro that this > >was the problem. > >Tke the casing off first. I guess you've done that., though. If you >haven't, the front and rear panels come off first, then the sides. THis > >frees the top cover over the floppy drive, etc. > >There are interlock switches that prevent the machine pwoering up with >the front and rear panels removed. They;re those standard white ones >found in a lot of machinesm, and you can pull thje actuators out a >little >way to turn them on, so you can run the machine with the cover removed. > >The PSU is under the main card cage, and is a right pain to get to. >Basically you have to remvoe the card cage. So to save a bit of time, >you >can test it without removing it : > >Unplug the ribbon cables from the front of the CIO board. The top one >goes to the floppy drive (SA850 pinout), the bottom one ot the >wincheter. >Lable them if you are not sure. Then pull the boards out of the card >cage. You don't bneed to remvoe them all the way, jsut make sure they >don't connect to the backplane. There are 3 boards i na normal PERQ, >form >the left they are the CPU, then the memory (and video) and finally the >CIO board (input/output, disk controllers, etc). If you are very >fortuantel there's a 4th vaord on the right of these. That's the OIO >(Optional Input/Ouptu). It adds a 16 bit parallel interface (a bit like >a >DEC DR11-C [1]), and oen or both of ethernet (which is not standard on >PERQ 1 and 1a models) and Canon CX laser pritner interface. There are >other boards that could be inthat slot (like a QIC-02 tape interface or > >a Datacopy 300 camera controller), but you are very unlikely to see >those. > >Now disconenct the DC power cables from the floppy drive nad >winchester. >Unplug the AC cables to the motors if you like, in fact the Winchester >motor cable should have been unplugged when the spindle locking scrrew >was fitted. > >HAve noting plugged into any of the D connectors o nthe backplane > >At this point there.is nothign conencted to the DC output of the PSU. >Connect mains, with the interlocs pulled out, the breaker closed, flip >the little switch on the front./ The fans should start up. If that's >OK, >check the DC voltages on the labelled traces on the backplane. > >It's rarew for them to be out of tolerance. Eitehr they are OK, or >they're all missing. If nthe latter case, you have to work o nthe PSU, >whioch I can explain when you need to do it. For the moment I will >assume >the PSU is OK. > >Power down. and remvoe the mains lead. Put the logic boards back in, >connect the keyboard ot the appropriate conenctor on the backplane. On >the underside of the keyboard is a 3 digit 7 segment display. Power up >again and press and release the reset button on the back of the >keyboard. >Look at that display. if it gets to 010, then the CPU has passed >power-on >diagnositcs, and is attmpting to load microcode from disk. If not, you >haev some logic faultfinding to do. > >Power down, reconenct the drive data ables to the CIO board and the >drive >power cables. Conenct the monitor to the correct conenctor, and power >up >again. Again blip the reset button. Watch the display. At 030, you >should >see memory test patterns on the CRT screen. If not, maybe there's a >monitor problem. If you are lucky, the machine will complete the boot >from the winchester, and you vncan then run whatever OS it's loaded. If > >not, you might have to re-install thigns from floppy. > >I've left out a lot of what to do when it doesn't work. What I epxext >is >you do the above 9which is safe, and will protect the mahcine from >amjor >damage), adn then get back to me when you ahve problems -- like the PSU > >is giving no outputs, or the DDC (7 segment display) sticks at 009, or >whatever. THen I can help uou further. > >-tony -- Colin From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 31 16:41:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:41:20 -0700 Subject: Micropolis 1203 Re: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50412F80.3000704@bitsavers.org> On 8/31/12 11:42 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > What sort of drive is it? THe Microposls 1203 (8") was used in the 2T1, > the 1300 series (5.25") were used in soem 2T2s. > It is a 1203. I guess we need to keep an eye out for the 1203 manual, since it sounds like you don't have a copy either. I will probably need this at some point to try to figure out why the 12xx series drives out of the Tek 8550 aren't working. I'll have to look in my email to see if I can find the PAL equations you sent. Sometimes things get forgotten if I get busy dealing with other things. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 31 17:00:45 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: <50412707.8030501@neurotica.com> References: <50412707.8030501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/31/2012 02:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Both have RS232 ports, don't they? Surely you can get text off them that >>>> way? >>> >>> As I said - an /easy/ way to move data. As I have said before, to your >>> bemusement or incredulity, I really detest RS232 and have done for >>> about 25 years now. All that fscking around with baud rates and >>> straight-through versus null-modem cables and so on was a massive >>> nightmare in the 1980s and it is worse now. I have not used a plain >> >> How come I never have these sorts of problems? I routinely link RS232 >> ports together had have no problems. Even on the fitst time of connecting >> 2 machiens, it often 'just works' > > That's what I was about to say. Sure, you have to set up a few > things...just like driving a car. You have to pull the lever, pull the > door, get in, close the door, insert the key, turn the key, release the > key at the same time, put it in gear, and drive. That's fewer steps > than I think I've ever taking getting something talking via RS232. > Even worse - in 17 years of using Windows, I've never had a problem that wasn't self-inflicted. Not. One. Problem. Then again, in the 20+ years of using Unix & Unix-like systems, the same thing holds true. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 17:29:24 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 23:29:24 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: <50412707.8030501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 31 August 2012 23:00, geneb wrote: > > Even worse - in 17 years of using Windows, I've never had a problem that > wasn't self-inflicted. Not. One. Problem. Wow. What, you've /never/ had a BSOD or anything? Not one? OK, I will freely admit, they're /very/ rare these days, but even XP threw 'em occasionally. I have seen Vista and Win7 throw blueys, but it is a noteworthy occurrence now. I've also had random Really Weird Sh*t like, for instance, installing SP3 on a clean, stable, working XP machine, and it deleted absolutely all the user's files. Left the home directory there, but empty except for the default templates, samples etc. Removed /all/ their settings - wallpaper, the lot. I've never even heard of that one before. All his data was backed up, 3 copies, but his backup mechanism was flawed and didn't include his email in Outlook. :?( > Then again, in the 20+ years of using Unix & Unix-like systems, the same > thing holds true. :) I've seen kernel panics on Linux, but only a /looooooong/ time ago - Red Hat 4.2 on SPARC, I think. I've seen the kernel "oops" recently, but it kept running & there was no data loss. I've seen Mac OS X kernel panic lots of times, from 10.0 to 10.5. (I don't have any MacIntel kit so I can't run anything later.) I've seen my iPhone (3GS, iOS 5.1.1) freeze and spontaneously reboot. So, yeah, Unix isn't immune, either. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 31 17:59:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 18:59:32 -0400 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: <50412707.8030501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <504141D4.2000203@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2012 06:29 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Then again, in the 20+ years of using Unix & Unix-like systems, the same >> thing holds true. :) > > I've seen kernel panics on Linux, but only a /looooooong/ time ago - > Red Hat 4.2 on SPARC, I think. I've seen the kernel "oops" recently, > but it kept running & there was no data loss. > > I've seen Mac OS X kernel panic lots of times, from 10.0 to 10.5. (I > don't have any MacIntel kit so I can't run anything later.) > > I've seen my iPhone (3GS, iOS 5.1.1) freeze and spontaneously reboot. > > So, yeah, Unix isn't immune, either. I dunno. Seems pretty immune to me. (that's why I run it) I haven't seen behavior like that on a UNIX box in well over a decade. And it's not like I manage a small number of machines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 19:44:42 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 17:44:42 -0700 Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: <503EC170.2050401@gmail.com> References: <503EB899.5010707@gmail.com> <503EBC1A.1030403@gmail.com> <503EBDAF.1020804@gmail.com> <503EC170.2050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50415A7A.2030107@gmail.com> On 8/29/2012 6:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > If you didn't get a keyboard one I'd beg the seller to connect you > with someone that did. Hopefully they will be willing to help you sort > out the keyboard at least. It can't be too impossible to recreate. > Software for development stuff is always so hard to find though. On > cassette tape I can't even imagine. Someone probably reused them for > Journey mix tapes. > > I did end up with one of the Keyboards. Went down to pick it up this morning, and as far as I can tell I have basically a complete system (minus peripherals). Serial #16. 8080A CPU board, 5 8K RAM boards (full of 2107's), an I/O board (tape and EIA) containing 256 bytes of ROM (in an 8702), and the Keyboard/Video interface. Seems like a nicely put together system. Very clean. The backplane is 100-pin but is probably not S-100 (different form factor for the cards at least). I can take pictures if anyone's interested. Any recommendations for a programmer that can dump 8702s? (Reprogramming might be a nice feature as well :)) I'd like to start with a ROM disassembly so I can work out what this machine is trying to bootstrap from (and how), and work from there. Thanks, Josh From rickb at bensene.com Fri Aug 31 20:59:59 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 18:59:59 -0700 Subject: Micropolis 1203 Re: Reviving a PERQ 1a Message-ID: <007901cd87e5$8004ef40$050aa8c0@bensene.com> The Micropolis 1203 has an epoxy encapsulated 16 pin (IIRC) plug that had jumpers in it that controlled low-level things like sector size and header information and some aspects of the transfers to the host. I believe that Tek used some non-standard settings in this plug for the 85xx MDP systems. Years ago I had a couple of these drives and wanted to make them work with a homebrew system that I had built. I had no success in making them work until I stumbled across some data on the drives on microfiche aperture cards at Tek that documented the nature of what was inside this encapsulated jumper block. Once I had this information, I was able to build a DIP header with jumpers in it that allowed me to make the drives work the way that the generic drive docs said they should work. It appears that Tek had ordered the drives in a non-standard configuration to lock folks into using Tek service and replacement drives. This could be why ex-8560 drives do not want to play nice with other computers like the PERQ. Sadly all of was many years ago and the specifics are long gone from my memory and the prints that I.got out of the aperture card readers that had the data about the plug were long ago thrown out. But, I figured that I would mention it here in that it may trigger more detailed information in someone's memory. Rick Bensene -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow [aek at bitsavers.org] Received: Friday, 31 Aug 2012, 2:42pm To: cctalk at classiccmp.org [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Subject: Micropolis 1203 Re: Reviving a PERQ 1a On 8/31/12 11:42 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > What sort of drive is it? THe Microposls 1203 (8") was used in the 2T1, > the 1300 series (5.25") were used in soem 2T2s. > It is a 1203. I guess we need to keep an eye out for the 1203 manual, since it sounds like you don't have a copy either. I will probably need this at some point to try to figure out why the 12xx series drives out of the Tek 8550 aren't working. I'll have to look in my email to see if I can find the PAL equations you sent. Sometimes things get forgotten if I get busy dealing with other things. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 21:20:34 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:20:34 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 7 Message-ID: Three weeks to go until the seventh annual Vintage Computer Festival Midwest! I am told there are still a few rooms left at the hotel for those coming in from out of town. Mention "Commodore Expo" for the $69/night convention rate. And of course, the show is free of charge whether you're there to shop, show or sell. September 22-23, 2012 in Lombard, IL (Western suburbs of Chicago, right off a major highway I-355) More information and updates at http://vcfmw.org From john.ralb at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 06:49:58 2012 From: john.ralb at gmail.com (Brenton Bryant) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 07:49:58 -0400 Subject: Wanted: DEC PDP-8/A power transformer and backplane Message-ID: Recently I found an incomplete PDP-8/a and need the transformer and backplane to start working on it. If anyone has one or both then please let me know.