From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Apr 1 00:57:31 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 06:57:31 +0100 Subject: Arcturus Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4F762940.40109@gifford.co.uk> References: <7757082DA9A5476F8E33196C9AC25EF0@Edicons.local> <4F74E8C4.9030209@gifford.co.uk> <53A8D3FF2342426BB42899C5017FAFFC@Edicons.local> <4F762940.40109@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <01C2475CA58F4D36926FFA5CB386C869@Edicons.local> Hi John Thanks for the response. Yes photos would be very interesting. If only one card is marked Arcturus then it's just possible you may have something other than the main CPU box. There would have been a TTY socket on the back of the CPU and I think it may well have been 20mA loop as opposed to RS232. Although it's approaching forty years ago I remember the system in its six foot 19" rack along with the character generator sub rack. On thing did standout. The character sub rack did not have a front panel and the boards were quite widely spaced. The CPU had a row of small toggle switches with white lamps above. To the right was an illuminated on/off button. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Honniball Sent: 30 March 2012 22:45 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Arcturus Minicomputer Rod Smallwood wrote: > Good Heavens!! > A survivor. I only saw it once or twice but Jon Giver worked on one for six > months. > I remember a gray rack mounted box with lamps and small toggle (Lemo type) > switches. I have just the card cage, no lights, switches, etc. Maybe a power supply and a blank front panel (19-inch). > Well John you have a real piece of UK computer history. There can't have > been that many made. Is there any identifying marks or labels on the rack? No, but the name "Arcturus" is on one of the PCBs. I'd better dig it out this weekend and get some photos! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Apr 1 01:12:55 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 07:12:55 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7712B0.7040408@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Mar 31, 12 10:20:32 am Message-ID: <51B222184730485299EBBEC2D45CB305@Edicons.local> VR201? Remove screw under cover in the centre of the rear panel between plug and pots. Lower adjustment leg to fully out. Screen blue spot? a) Run a hot wire (Styrofoam cutter) between the outer screen and the front of the tube. Or b) (only for CRT familiar persons) Remove the tube completely. Place in something to support it at the face end. Don goggles and gloves. Chip away the outer faceplate bit by bit. Peel off the soft plastic. Polish up the tube front, rebuild the monitor and put spacers at the four corners then replace casing. Does wonders for the brightness as well. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 31 March 2012 20:05 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? > > Dropping them from a high place usually does the trick ;-) While this is probably a quicker way of gettign the casing off, the time taken to put it back on again is much longer than with the 'remove the screw' method. And I think it's the total repair time that's important. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 1 02:19:36 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 03:19:36 -0400 Subject: Free: 8" Floppy disks - Facom In-Reply-To: <1333244164.99884.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1333244164.99884.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > Not that anyone would worry but mine arrived safe and sound. ?Thanks! Mine, too. Thanks, Kurt! -ethan From drb at msu.edu Sun Apr 1 11:28:10 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 12:28:10 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS Message-ID: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I WAS LOOKING FOR A SMALL SOFTWARE PROJECT TO DO ON VINTAGE HARDWARE. THE HUNT DIDN'T GO ON LONG BEFORE IT HIT ME. ONLY ONE THING COULD POSSIBLY DO: CALCULATE PRIME NUMBERS ON MY TRUSTY PR1ME 5340 MINICOMPUTER. THE 5340 IS A SOPHISTICATED MACHINE, CMOS BASED, AND UTILIZING CUSTOM HIGH DENSITY GATE ARRAYS TO REDUCE THE PHYSICAL SIZE OF THE CPU AND MAIN MEMORY (16 MB) TO WELL UNDER 225 SQUARE INCHES. POWER CONSUMPTION IS WELL UNDER 10A, TOO, AND THE MACHINE CAN RUN WITHOUT HEAVY AIR CONDITIONING. JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, EVEN A HIGH END ECL DESIGN COULD NOT PROVIDE THE SAME LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE IN SEVEN TIMES THE BOARD SPACE, AND IT STILL WOULD HAVE REQUIRED 30A TO 50A OF WALL POWER, PLUS SEVERAL THOUSAND BTU OF CHILLING. SINCE THE PR1ME ARCHITECTURE IS TARGETED AT SCIENTIFIC USERS, AN ARBITRARY PRECISION NUMBER PACKAGE IS NOT READILY AVAILABLE. AFTER A FEW TESTS, I CONCLUDED THAT THE HARDWARE QUAD PRECISION FLOATING POINT SUPPORT WAS A POOR CHOICE DUE TO THE SCALE OF THE ROUNDING ERRORS I WAS SEEING. THE PR1ME FLOATING POINT IMPLEMENTATION IS QUITE GOOD, BUT WHEN ALL OF THE SIGNIFICANT DIGITS ARE TO THE LEFT OF THE DECIMAL POINT, THERE IS VERY LITTLE IT CAN DO. BUT ALL WAS NOT LOST, AS HAS NO DOUBT BECOME OBVIOUS BY THE POSTING OF THIS MESSAGE. THE ARCHITECTURE ALSO SUPPORTS PACKED AND UNPACKED DECIMAL ARITHMETIC, WHICH CERTAINLY DOESN'T SUFFER FROM ROUNDING ERRORS. IT CAN EVEN STORE NUMBERS AS LARGE AS 63 DIGITS IN LENGTH. PERFECT! I WAS NOT WILLING TO SIMPLY CODE UP SOME MATHEMATICIAN'S DUBIOUS ALGORITHM -- I WANTED TO BE SURE NOT TO MISS ANY VALID PRIMES. INSTEAD, I CAREFULLY DESIGNED MY OWN, AND VALIDATED IT USING A LARGE CORPUS OF TEST DATA (ALL INTEGERS BETWEEN 1 AND 100). THE CODE USES A NUMBER OF ADVANCED TECHNIQUES FOR ACCURACY AND HIGH PERFORMANCE, INCLUDING: * SEQUENTIAL SEARCH FOR POSSIBLE FACTORS. * CYCLING TO THE NEXT POTENTIAL PRIME IMMEDIATELY UPON DISCOVERING AN INTEGRAL FACTOR, INSTEAD OF CONTINUING TO TEST ALL REMAINING POSSIBLE FACTORS. * TESTING ONLY FACTORS LESS THAN HALF OF THE CANDIDATE PRIME. * NOT TESTING FOR DIVISIBLENESS BY 1. * TESTING ONLY ODD CANDIDATE PRIMES. * HAND-CODED IN PR1ME ASSEMBLER. USING THESE METHODS, I WAS ABLE TO ACHIEVE REMARKABLE PERFORMANCE. IN TESTING, THE PROGRAM EXECUTED ABOUT 3,086,913,596 DECIMAL DIVISION OPERATIONS IN 11 HOURS AND 17 MINUTES, FINDING THE FIRST 10544 PRIME NUMBERS, AT A RATE OF ABOUT 75994 DIVISIONS PER SECOND, AND NEARLY 935 PRIMES PER HOUR. TRY _THAT_ IN BASIC ON YOUR IBM 5150! THE SOURCE PROGRAM, AND AN OUTPUT FILE WITH START AND END DATE STAMPS AND THE FOUND PRIMES, ARE AVAILABLE FOR PERUSAL AT http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/primenumbers/. SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. DE From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 1 11:58:11 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 12:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201204011658.MAA18300@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > THE CODE USES A > NUMBER OF ADVANCED TECHNIQUES FOR ACCURACY AND HIGH PERFORMANCE, > INCLUDING: > * TESTING ONLY FACTORS LESS THAN HALF OF THE CANDIDATE PRIME. YOU CAN ACTUALLY IMPROVE THIS SIGNIFICANTLY WITH ONLY A VERY LITTLE ADDITIONAL CODE. BY SPECIAL-CASING NUMBERS LESS THAN TEN, IT TURNS OUT YOU CAN REDUCE THAT TO "LESS THAN ONE-THIRD OF...". --MOUSE From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 1 11:54:01 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 09:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Apr 2012, Dennis Boone wrote: > SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE > GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. > capslock, y u so mad? *snickers* Sorry, couldn't resist. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 1 12:14:18 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 13:14:18 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F788CEA.2030407@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/04/12 12:28 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >... > SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE > GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. > You commented it! Automatic 10/10. Lovely. --Toby > DE > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 1 12:25:19 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 13:25:19 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F788F7F.9040502@telegraphics.com.au> ON 01/04/12 12:54 PM, GENE BUCKLE WROTE: > ON SUN, 1 APR 2012, DENNIS BOONE WROTE: > >> SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE >> GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. >> > CAPSLOCK, Y U SO MAD? > MY TERMINAL DOESN'T SUPPORT LOWER CASE YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD! > *SNICKERS* > > SORRY, COULDN'T RESIST. > > G. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 1 12:51:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:51:44 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F788F7F.9040502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, , <4F788F7F.9040502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F783340.17290.8BE654@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2012 at 13:25, Toby Thain wrote: > ON 01/04/12 12:54 PM, GENE BUCKLE WROTE: > > ON SUN, 1 APR 2012, DENNIS BOONE WROTE: > > > >> SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE > >> GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. >> > CAPSLOCK, Y U SO MAD? > > > MY TERMINAL DOESN'T SUPPORT LOWER CASE YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD! THEN WHY IS THE URL IN LOWER-CASE? --CHUCK From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 1 12:54:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:54:02 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:28, Dennis Boone wrote: > SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE > GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. TWO IS A PRIME NUMBER. YOU LEFT IT OUT. --CHUCK From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sun Apr 1 13:05:27 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 19:05:27 +0100 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F783340.17290.8BE654@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F788F7F.9040502@telegraphics.com.au> <4F783340.17290.8BE654@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Apr 2012 at 13:25, Toby Thain wrote: >> MY TERMINAL DOESN'T SUPPORT LOWER CASE YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD! > > THEN WHY IS THE URL IN LOWER-CASE? mine doesn't support uppercase. what are you typing on? a infoton? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- They view life as a bunch o' unconnected incidents 'n things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice o' coincidence that lays on top o' everything. Give you an example; show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness. -Miller, Repo Man From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 1 13:05:55 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 12:05:55 -0600 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/1/2012 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:28, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE >> GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. > > TWO IS A PRIME NUMBER. YOU LEFT IT OUT. > SOME SAY THAT ONE , SHOULD NOT BE A PRIME NUMBER. COMMENTS WELCOME. > --CHUCK > > BEN. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 1 13:05:48 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 13:05:48 -0500 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F783340.17290.8BE654@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F788F7F.9040502@telegraphics.com.au> <4F783340.17290.8BE654@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201204011814.q31IEZ9c008832@billy.ezwind.net> At 12:51 PM 4/1/2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >THEN WHY IS THE URL IN LOWER-CASE? Copy and pasted. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 1 13:46:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 14:46:45 -0400 Subject: Free: 8" Floppy disks - Facom In-Reply-To: References: <1333244164.99884.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F78A295.4000106@neurotica.com> On 04/01/2012 03:19 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Sam Onella wrote: >> Not that anyone would worry but mine arrived safe and sound. Thanks! > > Mine, too. Thanks, Kurt! Same here. Thank you Kurt! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 1 13:50:39 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 11:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F788F7F.9040502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F788F7F.9040502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Apr 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > ON 01/04/12 12:54 PM, GENE BUCKLE WROTE: >> ON SUN, 1 APR 2012, DENNIS BOONE WROTE: >> >>> SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE >>> GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. >>> >> CAPSLOCK, Y U SO MAD? >> > > MY TERMINAL DOESN'T SUPPORT LOWER CASE YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD! > *ROFL* -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 1 13:52:46 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 11:52:46 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:05, ben wrote: > SOME SAY THAT ONE , SHOULD NOT BE A PRIME NUMBER. > COMMENTS WELCOME. EUCLID DIDN'T DEFINE 1 AS A NUMBER. HE CALLED IT A "MONAS" OR "UNIT" AND THAT A NUMBER WAS A MULTIPLE OF UNITS. SO THE PROBLEM DIDN'T OCCUR FOR HIM. SOME HAVE CALLED ONE A PRIME, BUT DOING SO MAKES FOR TOO MUCH MESS. THE CURRENT DEFINITION OF A PRIME NUMBER NOW USUALLY SAYS SOMETHING TO THE EFFCT OF "...A NATURAL NUMBER GREATER THAN ONE...". --CHUCK From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 1 14:13:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 12:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20120401115405.K18224@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Apr 2012, Dennis Boone wrote: > I WAS LOOKING FOR A SMALL SOFTWARE PROJECT TO DO ON VINTAGE HARDWARE. Howzbout: ADD lower case capability! It's a fun project for any vintage hardware. You might need to add another bit to the display RAM, and maybe even develop a set of escapade-codes for switching case. > THE HUNT DIDN'T GO ON LONG BEFORE IT HIT ME. ONLY ONE THING COULD > POSSIBLY DO: CALCULATE PRIME NUMBERS ON MY TRUSTY PR1ME 5340 > MINICOMPUTER. > > SINCE THE PR1ME ARCHITECTURE IS TARGETED AT SCIENTIFIC USERS, AN > ARBITRARY PRECISION NUMBER PACKAGE IS NOT READILY AVAILABLE. AFTER A > FEW TESTS, I CONCLUDED THAT THE HARDWARE QUAD PRECISION FLOATING POINT Oh. April first. > I WAS NOT WILLING TO SIMPLY CODE UP SOME MATHEMATICIAN'S DUBIOUS > ALGORITHM -- I WANTED TO BE SURE NOT TO MISS ANY VALID PRIMES. > INSTEAD, I CAREFULLY DESIGNED MY OWN, AND VALIDATED IT USING A LARGE > CORPUS OF TEST DATA (ALL INTEGERS BETWEEN 1 AND 100). THE CODE USES A > NUMBER OF ADVANCED TECHNIQUES FOR ACCURACY AND HIGH PERFORMANCE, > INCLUDING: > * SEQUENTIAL SEARCH FOR POSSIBLE FACTORS. > * CYCLING TO THE NEXT POTENTIAL PRIME IMMEDIATELY UPON DISCOVERING AN > INTEGRAL FACTOR, INSTEAD OF CONTINUING TO TEST ALL REMAINING POSSIBLE > FACTORS. > * TESTING ONLY FACTORS LESS THAN HALF OF THE CANDIDATE PRIME. You can cut that down way further by only testing factors less than or equal to the square root. NO. Do NOT compute the square root. If you think about it, there are prime opportunities to test the square of the factor while checking with it, and not trying any more factors when you have tried with a factor whose square is greater than the candidate. > * NOT TESTING FOR DIVISIBLENESS BY 1 ONE IS PRIME. You can not come up with a positive integer divisor of one other than itself or one. > * TESTING ONLY ODD CANDIDATE PRIMES. > * HAND-CODED IN PR1ME ASSEMBLER. You might find better performance using INTEGERs instead of float. In fact, try doing it by elimination. Make a list of all the numbers that you want to test. Delete 4. add 2 and delete 6. add 2 and delete 8. keep deleting all of those multiples of 2. (You COULD make your array of candidates out of only odd numbers. . . ) Now delete 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, and the rest of the multiples of 3. now delete 4, 8, 12 WAITAMINIT! ONLY delete multiple of the numbers that haven't been deleted! When the square of the number whose multiples you are deleting exceeds the number, you are DONE. > USING THESE METHODS, I WAS ABLE TO ACHIEVE REMARKABLE PERFORMANCE. IN > TESTING, THE PROGRAM EXECUTED ABOUT 3,086,913,596 DECIMAL DIVISION > OPERATIONS IN 11 HOURS AND 17 MINUTES, FINDING THE FIRST 10544 PRIME > NUMBERS, AT A RATE OF ABOUT 75994 DIVISIONS PER SECOND, AND NEARLY 935 > PRIMES PER HOUR. TRY _THAT_ IN BASIC ON YOUR IBM 5150! Not hard with DEFINT and paging in banks of the array. > THE SOURCE PROGRAM, AND AN OUTPUT FILE WITH START AND END DATE STAMPS > AND THE FOUND PRIMES, ARE AVAILABLE FOR PERUSAL AT > http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/primenumbers/. HOW AM I SUIPPOSED TO TYPE THAT INT THE BROWSER USING AN UPPERCASE ONLY KEYBOARD? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 1 14:31:09 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120401115405.K18224@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20120401115405.K18224@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201204011931.PAA24349@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Since you seem be taking this seriously... > ONE IS PRIME. ...actually, it generally isn't. That is, most mathematicians use definitions of `prime' which are arranged such that 1 does not satisfy them. While it is logically consistent to consider 1 a prime, you then end up with a lot of "any prime except 1" and similar phrases scattered all over the place (notably, in the fundamental theorem of arithemtic), whereas not considering 1 to be a prime results in a lot fewer of the analogous "any prime or 1". That is, defining `prime' to exclude 1 turns out to result in a more useful definition. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 1 14:44:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 12:44:04 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204011931.PAA24349@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, <20120401115405.K18224@shell.lmi.net>, <201204011931.PAA24349@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F784D94.19310.F2BCA0@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2012 at 15:31, Mouse wrote: > While it is logically consistent to consider 1 a prime, you then end > up with a lot of "any prime except 1" and similar phrases scattered > all over the place (notably, in the fundamental theorem of > arithemtic), whereas not considering 1 to be a prime results in a lot > fewer of the analogous "any prime or 1". That is, defining `prime' to > exclude 1 turns out to result in a more useful definition. PLEASE CONFIINE YOUR REPONSES TO UPPER-CASE ALPHAMERICS AND PUNCTUATION ONLY. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 1 14:53:20 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 12:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 1, 12 11:52:46 am" Message-ID: <201204011953.q31JrKLL12713996@floodgap.com> > On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:05, ben wrote: > > > SOME SAY THAT ONE , SHOULD NOT BE A PRIME NUMBER. > > COMMENTS WELCOME. > > EUCLID DIDN'T DEFINE 1 AS A NUMBER. HE CALLED IT A "MONAS" OR "UNIT" > AND THAT A NUMBER WAS A MULTIPLE OF UNITS. SO THE PROBLEM DIDN'T > OCCUR FOR HIM. SOME HAVE CALLED ONE A PRIME, BUT DOING SO MAKES FOR > TOO MUCH MESS. THE CURRENT DEFINITION OF A PRIME NUMBER NOW USUALLY > SAYS SOMETHING TO THE EFFCT OF "...A NATURAL NUMBER GREATER THAN > ONE...". PLEASE ENSURE THAT YOUR RESPONSES ARE PROPERLY JUSTIFIED. RAGGED MARGINS ARE WHY THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL AND HAVE NO PURPOSE BEING IN A PROPER DISCUSSION OF MATHEMATICAL ALGORITHMS. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I would blame Microsoft even if it *weren't* their fault." -- me ---------- From jlw at jlw.com Sun Apr 1 02:29:09 2012 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 00:29:09 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <201203301749.NAA24212@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201203301749.NAA24212@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F7803C5.1050404@jlw.com> Mouse writes > Quite aside from that, the SimH format does have a few disadvantages. > In the CDC tape community, we have three almost-compatible variants of the SimH format. SimH itself acknowledges two of them. The first, totally naive format came about when someone heard the briefest description of it (32 bits of block length, that many bytes of data, and 32 bits of block length) and ran off to write a reader that produced it. Note that all blocks have that format, even tape marks are 8 bytes long. The second is pretty much as described in the SimH documents, meaning tapemarks are 4 bytes long. Odd-length blocks are not padded. This is E11 format. The third is identical, except that odd-length blocks are padded. This is SimH format. One theory about the padding is that this format congealed at a time when 16-bit I/O on minicomputers was prevalent. I've had to make my readers a bit heuristic to read all three on-the-fly, modulo duplicate tape marks (assuming that the presence of data after 8 bytes of tapemark indicates a single 8-byte tapemark instead of two 4-byte ones (signalling EOI) ignores the possibility (which I've encountered many times) of recovering some data past the shorter thing that overwrote the first part of it). Wiping out bastard formats is a lost cause. Data cannot be destroyed--you'll run across backups of it and not know which format you used that day, so handle all of them. SimH also describes bad blocks, which have the high-bit set in the length but otherwise look normal. Except that most tape drives, without heroics, will not give you any data for an unrecoverable read error (both that and a tapemark read as 0-length blocks; some gymnastics are needed to tell them apart), except that such a block cannot be empty. So what to put in it, if we're noting them at all? I'm playing with ANSI-style labels for this. Some history is at: http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.folklore.computers/20001209_New_Tape_Container_format , though in there it is asserted that tape blocks cannot be longer than 64K, implying that only two bytes are required for the length. However, I have a tape someone else wrote (HDR2 even says so) with 65536-byte blocks (not every O/S today can handle that--16-bit signed comparisons). To represent that along with 0-byte tapemarks requires 17 bits. Elsewhere someone asserted that a tape block can be as long as the entire tape, which seems unlikely and wouldn't always fit in three bytes. -- Jeff Woolsey {woolsey,jlw}@{jlw,jxh}.com first.last at gmail.com Spum bad keming. Nature abhors a straight antenna, a clean lens, and unused storage capacity. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management "Card sorting, Joel." -me, re Solitaire From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 11:54:29 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 09:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <51B222184730485299EBBEC2D45CB305@Edicons.local> References: <4F7712B0.7040408@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Mar 31, 12 10:20:32 am <51B222184730485299EBBEC2D45CB305@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <1333299269.18309.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Rod Smallwood VR201?? Remove screw under cover in the centre of the rear panel between plug and pots. Lower adjustment leg to fully out. C: Thought I did that on the first try. It didn't seem easy to get the screws back in (in fact I gave up). I'll give it another go. From lorddoomicus at me.com Sun Apr 1 13:39:42 2012 From: lorddoomicus at me.com (Derrik Walker) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 14:39:42 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <734EB7AB-2DCB-40B8-9BDD-D98E3849B571@me.com> Two is a prime number. One is NOT a Prime number. I think this was pretty clearly explained by Euclid. For some reason, they teach that one is a prime in schools ... why ... Wish I knew. - Derrik On Apr 1, 2012, at 2:05 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/1/2012 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:28, Dennis Boone wrote: >> >>> SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE >>> GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. >> >> TWO IS A PRIME NUMBER. YOU LEFT IT OUT. >> > > SOME SAY THAT ONE , SHOULD NOT BE A PRIME NUMBER. > COMMENTS WELCOME. > >> --CHUCK >> >> > BEN. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 1 15:16:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 21:16:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <51B222184730485299EBBEC2D45CB305@Edicons.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 1, 12 07:12:55 am Message-ID: > > VR201? Remove screw under cover in the centre of the rear panel between > plug and pots. Lower adjustment leg to fully out.=20 > > Screen blue spot?=20 > > a) Run a hot wire (Styrofoam cutter) between the outer screen and the fro= > nt > of the tube. > > Or =20 > > b) (only for CRT familiar persons) Remove the tube completely. Place in > something to support it at the face end. Don goggles and gloves. Chip awa= > y > the outer faceplate bit by bit. Peel off the soft plastic. Polish up the > tube front, rebuild the monitor and put spacers at the four corners then > replace casing. Does wonders for the brightness as well. Look, I know what day it is, but practical jokes are supposed to be funny, and not endager innocent bystnaders at som random future time. CRT implosions are not common, I agree. But they must be serious enough tat even in the less safety-concious times of 50 years ago all TV sets had some kind of implosion protection. Unless you have definiete infroamtion to the contrary, I will go by what every CRT data sheet I've looked at says. That the twin-panel faceplate acts like a laminated windscreen and supports te screen i nthe even of an implosion, preventing the user from being showeed in fragments of glass. Most CRT datasheets also say that no attempy must be made to remvoe the outer layer, but I think it's popsible to do this safely _provided you then re-bond the layers together properly_. LEaving off the outer layer, or not bonding it to the frotn of the envelope is not acceptable IMHO. You don't know when the CRT could implode, or who might be in front of it at the time. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 1 15:42:07 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 14:42:07 -0600 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/1/2012 12:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:05, ben wrote: > >> SOME SAY THAT ONE , SHOULD NOT BE A PRIME NUMBER. >> COMMENTS WELCOME. > > EUCLID DIDN'T DEFINE 1 AS A NUMBER. HE CALLED IT A "MONAS" OR "UNIT" > AND THAT A NUMBER WAS A MULTIPLE OF UNITS. SO THE PROBLEM DIDN'T > OCCUR FOR HIM. SOME HAVE CALLED ONE A PRIME, BUT DOING SO MAKES FOR > TOO MUCH MESS. THE CURRENT DEFINITION OF A PRIME NUMBER NOW USUALLY > SAYS SOMETHING TO THE EFFCT OF "...A NATURAL NUMBER GREATER THAN > ONE...". > ORGANIC or NON ORGANIC NATURAL NUMBER? > --CHUCK > BEN. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 1 15:47:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 13:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204011953.q31JrKLL12713996@floodgap.com> References: <201204011953.q31JrKLL12713996@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120401134147.A18224@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Apr 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > PLEASE ENSURE THAT YOUR RESPONSES ARE PROPERLY JUSTIFIED. RAGGED MARGINS ARE > WHY THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL AND HAVE NO PURPOSE BEING IN A PROPER > DISCUSSION OF MATHEMATICAL ALGORITHMS. On a serious note, I am looking for a Douglas Adams quote about the ability of word processors to justify any idea. From jgessling at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 16:13:40 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 14:13:40 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS Message-ID: <0A2440E8-8BF1-4A32-A501-C6A1F5FAEA18@yahoo.com> In fact those guys at the LHC Were going to do just that. By directing the beam at a block of chrystilan silicon ( nice square latice) and then Stepping the beam deflection in integer increments. A physical Erathones sieve can be created for large numbers. Essentially blasting away nonprimes. Detecting the remaining primes is then A radiation problem similar to that used in Genetic screening. Regards, Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 1 17:35:18 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 15:35:18 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <4F7803C5.1050404@jlw.com> References: <201203301749.NAA24212@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4F7803C5.1050404@jlw.com> Message-ID: <4F7875B6.21502.18F82F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2012 at 0:29, Jeff Woolsey wrote: > Elsewhere someone asserted that a tape block can be as long as the > entire tape, which seems unlikely and wouldn't always fit in three > bytes. It was I who made the assertion--and the occasion is burned into my memory. "L" tapes--so-called "Long Stranger" tapes--as opposed to "S" or "Stranger" tapes. If you've got the source for, say, SCOPE 3.16, 3.2, 3.3 or 3.4, you'll find it in the PP overlay 1LT (IIRC). I don't know about other versions. So long as the user program could keep OUT chasing IN during a read, the tape would keep rolling. When I got saddled with this particular bit of perversion, it was during some rather touchy negotionas with the Air Force, who was seeking changes to their contract with CDC. So the brass instructed their horde of GSA types to go over the contract specifications with fine-toothed comb to see where we might be found lacking in order to gain an advantage. Well, when the original proposal was written, most of the Common Product sales boilerplate was simply attached to the "special" stuff in the proposal--and long stranger tapes were part of that boilerplate. One thing that we'd neglected to consider was that our "special stuff" made heavy use of ECS--and we had 4MW of the stuff shared by up to 4 machines. Normally, the only really visible sign of that use was that the image on the console display dimmed and flickered a bit when memory access got thwarted by an ECS transfer. But it was really, really bad for L tape access--the driver assembled a word and wrote it immedately to CM and updated the IN pointer. Get delayed more than a bit and you lose the tape data stream. It was horrible to watch. The fly boys would up getting their notch on the bedpost. I don't know if L tapes made it much beyond SCOPE 3.4; I can't conceive of how 6RM would have handled them. "How long can an L tape record be? How long is a string?" Those were the days when QSEs and QSSs fell like rain for SSD. I'm sure the ROVER people have some eually interesting stories--if they can talk about them, that is. --Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 18:44:18 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 16:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For sale: warehouse of IBM, WANG, DIGITAL, NCR in Maine Message-ID: <1333323858.41359.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Attention! For sale: Looks like a warehouse of IBM, WANG, DIGITAL, NCR in Bangor, Maine. See pics here: http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/ Also some TRS-80, Apple, Compaq, etc. I have no connection, just passing on the info. Contact Penny at: peifen196 at yahoo.com Enjoy! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 1 19:10:56 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:10:56 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204011953.q31JrKLL12713996@floodgap.com> References: <201204011953.q31JrKLL12713996@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F78EE90.3060801@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/04/12 3:53 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:05, ben wrote: >> >>> SOME SAY THAT ONE , SHOULD NOT BE A PRIME NUMBER. >>> COMMENTS WELCOME. >> >> EUCLID DIDN'T DEFINE 1 AS A NUMBER. HE CALLED IT A "MONAS" OR "UNIT" >> AND THAT A NUMBER WAS A MULTIPLE OF UNITS. SO THE PROBLEM DIDN'T >> OCCUR FOR HIM. SOME HAVE CALLED ONE A PRIME, BUT DOING SO MAKES FOR >> TOO MUCH MESS. THE CURRENT DEFINITION OF A PRIME NUMBER NOW USUALLY >> SAYS SOMETHING TO THE EFFCT OF "...A NATURAL NUMBER GREATER THAN >> ONE...". > > PLEASE ENSURE THAT YOUR RESPONSES ARE PROPERLY JUSTIFIED. RAGGED MARGINS ARE > WHY THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL AND HAVE NO PURPOSE BEING IN A PROPER > DISCUSSION OF MATHEMATICAL ALGORITHMS. > OH GOD ... ELL OH ELL From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 1 19:12:23 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:12:23 -0400 Subject: 1 = LONELIEST NUMBER, NOT EVEN PRIME - RE: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <734EB7AB-2DCB-40B8-9BDD-D98E3849B571@me.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <734EB7AB-2DCB-40B8-9BDD-D98E3849B571@me.com> Message-ID: <4F78EEE7.101@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/04/12 2:39 PM, Derrik Walker wrote: > Two is a prime number. > > One is NOT a Prime number. I think this was pretty clearly explained by Euclid. > > For some reason, they teach that one is a prime in schools ... why ... Wish I knew. > It's a Chinese plot to foil American innovation, obviously. --T > - Derrik > > On Apr 1, 2012, at 2:05 PM, ben wrote: > >> On 4/1/2012 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:28, Dennis Boone wrote: >>> >>>> SUGGESTIONS FOR ENHANCEMENT OR CORRECTION OF THE PROGRAM WILL BE >>>> GRATEFULLY RECEIVED BY THE AUTHOR. >>> >>> TWO IS A PRIME NUMBER. YOU LEFT IT OUT. >>> >> >> SOME SAY THAT ONE , SHOULD NOT BE A PRIME NUMBER. >> COMMENTS WELCOME. >> >>> --CHUCK >>> >>> >> BEN. >> > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 1 19:19:34 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 20:19:34 -0400 Subject: For sale: warehouse of IBM, WANG, DIGITAL, NCR in Maine References: <1333323858.41359.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59CD1FAEAA2844ABB545C97E788DE293@hd2600xt6a04f7> What is that tower with the dual black floppies in pic 3981? http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/IMGP3981.JPG ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven stengel" To: Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 7:44 PM Subject: For sale: warehouse of IBM, WANG, DIGITAL, NCR in Maine > Attention! > For sale: Looks like a warehouse of IBM, WANG, DIGITAL, NCR in Bangor, > Maine. > > See pics here: > http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/ > > Also some TRS-80, Apple, Compaq, etc. > > I have no connection, just passing on the info. > > Contact Penny at: > peifen196 at yahoo.com > > Enjoy! > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 1 19:29:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1 = LONELIEST NUMBER, NOT EVEN PRIME - RE: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F78EEE7.101@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <734EB7AB-2DCB-40B8-9BDD-D98E3849B571@me.com> <4F78EEE7.101@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120401172757.E25558@shell.lmi.net> > > Two is a prime number. > > One is NOT a Prime number. "When choosing prime numbers to use as encryption keys, it is recommended to use the largest ones that you can think of." From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 1 20:23:12 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 18:23:12 -0700 Subject: For sale: warehouse of IBM, WANG, DIGITAL, NCR in Maine In-Reply-To: <59CD1FAEAA2844ABB545C97E788DE293@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1333323858.41359.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <59CD1FAEAA2844ABB545C97E788DE293@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2012 5:27 PM, "TeoZ" wrote: > > What is that tower with the dual black floppies in pic 3981? > > http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/IMGP3981.JPG > CPT Corporation SRS45 shared disk unit? http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow.php?image=SRS45.jpg&folder=/Museum/cpt&back=/Museum/cpt/index.php From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 1 21:26:33 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:26:33 -0600 Subject: PIXAR Image Computer Panel Museum Display on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > I thought that the RICM had one of these. It turns out that we have > two PII-9 systems that they were made after the Viacom Systems buyout > so it doesn't say Pixar on the die-cast front cover. I will add more > pictures and details shortly. > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/pixar-image-computer Nice! I'm severely jealous. Do you guys have docs? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 1 21:41:31 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:41:31 -0600 Subject: What's that TeK Box? In-Reply-To: References: <20120331110819.GC61592@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > > http://www.tiffe.de/images/Unbenannt.JPG > > > > This is one of the things in Dortmund, anyone know what this could be? > > It looks like a 41XXB workstation base. Is there a nameplate with > contents on the back. It usually lists the boards and options. I think Paxton is right; compare to the 4113 cabinet in the bottom right of this picture: This Tek box would be worth saving. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 1 21:43:19 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:43:19 -0600 Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <4F7580D8.1936.51AEA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F7580D8.1936.51AEA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F7580D8.1936.51AEA5 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Like everything else, the devil's in the details. Even your most > hard-core Mormon will probably enjoy a cool drink of ginger ale or > root beer [...] ...or use mouth wash. Most mouth wash is alcohol by volume. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 1 21:48:07 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 22:48:07 -0400 Subject: For sale: warehouse of IBM, WANG, DIGITAL, NCR in Maine References: <1333323858.41359.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <59CD1FAEAA2844ABB545C97E788DE293@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <8608A196ABAB4DD0AD1036B21E52E71A@hd2600xt6a04f7> So that company made expensive word processors? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 9:23 PM Subject: Re: For sale: warehouse of IBM, WANG, DIGITAL, NCR in Maine > On Apr 1, 2012 5:27 PM, "TeoZ" wrote: >> >> What is that tower with the dual black floppies in pic 3981? >> >> http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/IMGP3981.JPG >> > > CPT Corporation SRS45 shared disk unit? > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow.php?image=SRS45.jpg&folder=/Museum/cpt&back=/Museum/cpt/index.php From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Sun Apr 1 21:50:01 2012 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 19:50:01 -0700 Subject: Free plus shipping: DEC 861C Power Control In-Reply-To: <201203301332.q2UDW7Z6021189@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <201203301332.q2UDW7Z6021189@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <4F7913D9.6040805@gmail.com> I found this DEC 861C rackmount Power Control in my attic over the weekend. I tested it and I only seem to get power on the "unswitched circuit" side. The switched circuit side seems dead...Perhaps someone can fix this and has use for it...Shoot me an email if you're interested in it. You pay shipping and a few bucks extra for motivation. https://plus.google.com/photos/112158735340501596756/albums/5726627946981146561 From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Apr 1 22:50:40 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 22:50:40 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F792210.9060808@pico-systems.com> Message: 20 Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 00:29:09 -0700 From: Jeff Woolsey To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Pertec interface Message-ID: <4F7803C5.1050404 at jlw.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 SimH also describes bad blocks, which have the high-bit set in the length but otherwise look normal. Except that most tape drives, without heroics, will not give you any data for an unrecoverable read error (both that and a tapemark read as 0-length blocks; some gymnastics are needed to tell them apart), except that such a block cannot be empty. So what to put in it, if we're noting them at all? I'm playing with ANSI-style labels for this. Some history is at: http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.folklore.computers/20001209_New_Tape_Container_format , though in there it is asserted that tape blocks cannot be longer than 64K, implying that only two bytes are required for the length. However, I have a tape someone else wrote (HDR2 even says so) with 65536-byte blocks (not every O/S today can handle that--16-bit signed comparisons). To represent that along with 0-byte tapemarks requires 17 bits. Elsewhere someone asserted that a tape block can be as long as the entire tape, which seems unlikely and wouldn't always fit in three bytes. I think most Pertec formatted drives will not give you the bad block, but I could be wrong. Of course if it is really bad, even the block length can't be determined. Most PDP-11 and VAX tape controllers, both DEC and third-party could handle 65536 byte blocks. Of course, on a PDP-11, that could be the entire memory in a single tape block! So, it really only made sense on Q-22 systems. Tapes with insanely long blocks are not a good idea, even on hardware that can handle it. I'm guessing 1401 and similar machines could do crazy stuff like that due to their stream of digits architecture. But, having an entire tape with only one LRCC and CRC byte would lead to undetected errors and difficult to recover files. The greatest feature of GCR is that the redundancy data is added periodically within the block, making the likelihood of recovering small dropouts much better. Jon From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Apr 2 00:50:13 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 06:50:13 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <51B222184730485299EBBEC2D45CB305@Edicons.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 1, 12 07:12:55 am Message-ID: <95AA0D080EF040FDB6B54DEA7E46F9D4@Edicons.local> Whilst I do agree your safety concerns. I would say not all tubes have this arrangement and that the thin bits are at the other end. The point is the tube is being supported as intended at the four front corners by the metal band made for that purpose. Having spent some time in a re-gunning facility maybe I'm just used to CRT's Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 01 April 2012 21:16 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? > > VR201? Remove screw under cover in the centre of the rear panel between > plug and pots. Lower adjustment leg to fully out.=20 > > Screen blue spot?=20 > > a) Run a hot wire (Styrofoam cutter) between the outer screen and the fro= > nt > of the tube. > > Or =20 > > b) (only for CRT familiar persons) Remove the tube completely. Place in > something to support it at the face end. Don goggles and gloves. Chip awa= > y > the outer faceplate bit by bit. Peel off the soft plastic. Polish up the > tube front, rebuild the monitor and put spacers at the four corners then > replace casing. Does wonders for the brightness as well. Look, I know what day it is, but practical jokes are supposed to be funny, and not endager innocent bystnaders at som random future time. CRT implosions are not common, I agree. But they must be serious enough tat even in the less safety-concious times of 50 years ago all TV sets had some kind of implosion protection. Unless you have definiete infroamtion to the contrary, I will go by what every CRT data sheet I've looked at says. That the twin-panel faceplate acts like a laminated windscreen and supports te screen i nthe even of an implosion, preventing the user from being showeed in fragments of glass. Most CRT datasheets also say that no attempy must be made to remvoe the outer layer, but I think it's popsible to do this safely _provided you then re-bond the layers together properly_. LEaving off the outer layer, or not bonding it to the frotn of the envelope is not acceptable IMHO. You don't know when the CRT could implode, or who might be in front of it at the time. -tony From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Apr 2 00:52:07 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 06:52:07 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <1333241809.2908.yint-ygo-j2me@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1333241809.2908.yint-ygo-j2me@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5ED903AEDBEA407F88212E7AE4221C60@Edicons.local> It's under the round cover between the pots and the connector. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: 01 April 2012 01:57 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? There are no screws specific to keeping the back cover on. The only screw/s have to do with the orientation contraption. Do I remove that and use a case popper like a mac? ------------------------------ On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 3:04 PM EDT Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Dropping them from a high place usually does the trick ;-) > >While this is probably a quicker way of gettign the casing off, the time >taken to put it back on again is much longer than with the 'remove the >screw' method. And I think it's the total repair time that's important. > >-tony From jgh at mdfs.net Sun Apr 1 16:19:57 2012 From: jgh at mdfs.net (J.G.Harston) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 22:19:57 +0100 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120401115405.K18224@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20120401115405.K18224@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: (discussion of listing primes) There is a discussion of methods of generating and testing prime numbers at http://mdfs.net/Info/Comp/BBCBasic/ProgTips > HOW AM I SUIPPOSED TO TYPE THAT INT THE BROWSER USING AN UPPERCASE > ONLY KEYBOARD? Press the CapsLock key to turn CapsLock off. -- J.G.Harston - jgh at mdfs.net - mdfs.net/jgh From lorddoomicus at me.com Sun Apr 1 16:23:04 2012 From: lorddoomicus at me.com (Derrik Walker) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 17:23:04 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> One is a unit. And, by definition, units are NOT prime. But that doesn't matter. Whats frakked up, is that they still teach one is a prime to this day. - Derrik On Apr 1, 2012, at 4:42 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/1/2012 12:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 1 Apr 2012 at 12:05, ben wrote: >> >>> SOME SAY THAT ONE , SHOULD NOT BE A PRIME NUMBER. >>> COMMENTS WELCOME. >> >> EUCLID DIDN'T DEFINE 1 AS A NUMBER. HE CALLED IT A "MONAS" OR "UNIT" >> AND THAT A NUMBER WAS A MULTIPLE OF UNITS. SO THE PROBLEM DIDN'T >> OCCUR FOR HIM. SOME HAVE CALLED ONE A PRIME, BUT DOING SO MAKES FOR >> TOO MUCH MESS. THE CURRENT DEFINITION OF A PRIME NUMBER NOW USUALLY >> SAYS SOMETHING TO THE EFFCT OF "...A NATURAL NUMBER GREATER THAN >> ONE...". >> > > ORGANIC or NON ORGANIC NATURAL NUMBER? > >> --CHUCK >> > BEN. > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 1 18:08:23 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 16:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? Message-ID: <1333321703.21424.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> not going to be an issue in my case. Still cant get it open...if by screws the poster meant the hexagonal lugs or whatever in back then i guess its april 1 after all... ------------------------------ On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 4:16 PM EDT Tony Duell wrote: >> >> VR201? Remove screw under cover in the centre of the rear panel between >> plug and pots. Lower adjustment leg to fully out.=20 >> >> Screen blue spot?=20 >> >> a) Run a hot wire (Styrofoam cutter) between the outer screen and the fro= >> nt >> of the tube. >> >> Or =20 >> >> b) (only for CRT familiar persons) Remove the tube completely. Place in >> something to support it at the face end. Don goggles and gloves. Chip awa= >> y >> the outer faceplate bit by bit. Peel off the soft plastic. Polish up the >> tube front, rebuild the monitor and put spacers at the four corners then >> replace casing. Does wonders for the brightness as well. > >Look, I know what day it is, but practical jokes are supposed to be >funny, and not endager innocent bystnaders at som random future time. > >CRT implosions are not common, I agree. But they must be serious enough >tat even in the less safety-concious times of 50 years ago all TV sets >had some kind of implosion protection. > >Unless you have definiete infroamtion to the contrary, I will go by what >every CRT data sheet I've looked at says. That the twin-panel faceplate >acts like a laminated windscreen and supports te screen i nthe even of an >implosion, preventing the user from being showeed in fragments of glass. >Most CRT datasheets also say that no attempy must be made to remvoe the >outer layer, but I think it's popsible to do this safely _provided you >then re-bond the layers together properly_. LEaving off the outer layer, >or not bonding it to the frotn of the envelope is not acceptable IMHO. > >You don't know when the CRT could implode, or who might be in front of it >at the time. > >-tony From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 2 01:25:14 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2012 23:25:14 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> Message-ID: <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> Derrik Walker wrote: > Whats frakked up, is that they still teach one is a prime to this day. I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime numbers. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 2 01:50:29 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 07:50:29 +0100 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In the UK thats not what they should teach. They are suppposed to teach primes have two distinct factors, 1 and the prime. As for 1 these are both the same number its not prime. On 2 Apr 2012 07:34, "Eric Smith" wrote: Derrik Walker wrote: > > Whats frakked up, is that they still teach one is a prime to this day. I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime numbers. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Apr 2 04:37:50 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:37:50 +0200 Subject: BRU Tapes on Unix? Message-ID: <20120402093750.GB56119@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, Friends of mine have an old, not that much DEC compatible PDP11 like machine that they (and me) would get working again. The machine is located at the German Chemical Museum in Merseburg. http://www.robotrontechnik.de/index.htm?/html/computer/k1600.htm Scroll down to the K1630. The Machine was rescued from the old power plant in Thierbach before. It is an PDP11 build out of some east german 8 Bit Bitslice CPU's and has 248K Ram. They used an unusual BUS, an Z80 Sio for The console (this is really ugly) und Bus communication controllers on each peripheral board that must be configured before the first use of that board, this means the IO Adress, DMA Registers, Modes and Vector addresses are set in Software before the Processor can talk to them like in a PDP11, so every DEC-OS must be patched to work on this thing. It is a slow machine too :-) We now have some CPTP Dumps of BRU Backup Tapes of the Operating System OMOS for this machine (old version of RSX11) I have a copy here http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/K1630 There are 2 Versions omos-sys.tape.gz is the original type file in CPTP Format, omossys.tap.gz is the same thing converted with taput to simh tape format. Same with the dok tape, the docs are in german... My friend Oleg told me that the tape files are broken, may be this is the fault of taput (http://www.mrynet.com/hp2000/taput/index.html). My question is if somebody can verify what is going on with the files and if an opensource utility exists that can read BRU files on unix (like my FreeBSD here).... I think the OMOS-SYS Tape is the only real chance to boot this thing sometime again.. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 2 08:18:59 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 09:18:59 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/12 2:25 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Derrik Walker wrote: >> Whats frakked up, is that they still teach one is a prime to this day. > > I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical > problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime numbers. > > The only large numbers he is interested in are dollars. --T From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 2 08:41:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 09:41:35 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> Message-ID: <4F79AC8F.2010108@neurotica.com> On 04/01/2012 05:23 PM, Derrik Walker wrote: > One is a unit. And, by definition, units are NOT prime. > > But that doesn't matter. Whats frakked up, is that they still teach one is a prime to this day. No. What's frakked up is this gang's total obsession with strict classification and labeling. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 2 08:55:06 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 09:55:06 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> On 4/2/2012 9:18 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/04/12 2:25 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Derrik Walker wrote: >>> Whats frakked up, is that they still teach one is a prime to this day. >> >> I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical >> problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime >> numbers. >> >> > > The only large numbers he is interested in are dollars. > > --T And of course in donating an extremely large portion of those dollars to good causes. http://www.moneyhowmuch.com/2010/05/if-you-had-bill-gates-money-how-much-of.html including $10 Billion over 10 years for vaccines http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/29/us-davos-vaccines-idUSTRE60S3K420100129 Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 2 09:14:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:14:10 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2012 09:55 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: >>> I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical >>> problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime >>> numbers. >> >> The only large numbers he is interested in are dollars. > > And of course in donating an extremely large portion of those dollars to > good causes. > > http://www.moneyhowmuch.com/2010/05/if-you-had-bill-gates-money-how-much-of.html > > > including $10 Billion over 10 years for vaccines > > http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/29/us-davos-vaccines-idUSTRE60S3K420100129 Guilt is a difficult thing to deal with, but it's easily assuaged when you've got that much money. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 2 10:43:38 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:43:38 -0500 Subject: Re-inking plotter pens (Epson HI-80) Message-ID: <4F79C92A.4000001@gmail.com> I acquired a little Epson HI-80 plotter the other day - for a "consumer-grade" device with a small page size it looks to be quite a nice little unit. Of course the pens are all but dried up (there's a little life left in the red and blue, enough to see that the self-test is working). So... has anyone tried adding fresh ink to these? I assume the pens themselves haven't been sold in well over 20 years. It looks like it's probably possible to open the pens up, but I assume that any replacement ink needs to be just the right consistency for it to soak into the pen tips properly but not end up all over the place. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 2 13:22:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120402112130.M55502@shell.lmi.net> > I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical problem > he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime numbers. Well, the software has finished checking 1 and 2. Larger prime numbers, such as 3, 5, 7 are in progress! From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 2 13:27:44 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:27:44 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:22:59 PDT.) <20120402112130.M55502@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120402112130.M55502@shell.lmi.net> <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120402182745.0F89AA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical > > problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime > > numbers. > Well, the software has finished checking 1 and 2. Larger prime numbers, > such as 3, 5, 7 are in progress! Ooh, then mine's faster! :) De From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 2 13:32:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net> > > I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical > > problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime numbers. On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > The only large numbers he is interested in are dollars. Improvements in factoring large primes would permit virtual control of the current cryptography market. THAT could carry some large dollars. There is an urban legend of a college kid coming up with an improved factoring algorithm, and being "recruited" by the NSA. ("This job offer is not voluntary.") From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 2 13:35:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120402113359.D55502@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > Guilt is a difficult thing to deal with, but it's easily assuaged when > you've got that much money. Gates is quite openly a "student" of Carnegie - max greed, THEN buy your way into heaven From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 2 13:59:39 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201204021859.OAA08131@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Improvements in factoring large primes would permit virtual control > of the current cryptography market. Well...factoring any prime, large or small, is really easy. It's composite numbers with no small prime factors that are difficult. > THAT could carry some large dollars. Could. Depends on the degree of the improvement. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 2 14:09:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 12:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204021859.OAA08131@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net> <201204021859.OAA08131@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120402120703.N55502@shell.lmi.net> > Well...factoring any prime, large or small, is really easy. It's > composite numbers with no small prime factors that are difficult. True. If you already KNOW that it is prime, then just divide by 1 :-) > > THAT could carry some large dollars. > Could. Depends on the degree of the improvement. Any "incremental" improvement in factoring is of big interest to that community. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 2 14:21:38 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 12:21:38 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F79FC42.4020507@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical problem > he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime numbers. Dave Wade wrote: > In the UK thats not what they should teach. They are suppposed to teach > primes have two distinct factors, 1 and the prime. As for 1 these are both > the same number its not prime. Yes, that was my point. Factoring very large prime numbers is trivial. Gates obviously meant "factoring products of two very large prime numbers", but got it wrong. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 2 14:23:24 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 12:23:24 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F79FCAC.3060404@brouhaha.com> I wrote: >>> I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical >>> problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime numbers. Fred wrote: > Improvements in factoring large primes would permit virtual control of > the current cryptography market. Nope. It's already possible to factor large primes, very easily and quickly, with only minimal computer resources. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 14:07:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:07:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free plus shipping: DEC 861C Power Control In-Reply-To: <4F7913D9.6040805@gmail.com> from "Kurt M. Nowak" at Apr 1, 12 07:50:01 pm Message-ID: > > I found this DEC 861C rackmount Power Control in my attic over the > weekend. I tested it and I only seem to get power on the "unswitched > circuit" side. The switched circuit side seems dead...Perhaps someone > can fix this and has use for it...Shoot me an email if you're interested > in it. You pay shipping and a few bucks extra for motivation. You did try flliping the tiny toggle swithc to 'Local On', I assume. I am sure it's fixable. There's nothing remotely custom in those, the circuitry is quite simple. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 13:46:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:46:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <1333299269.18309.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 1, 12 09:54:29 am Message-ID: > Remove screw under cover in the cen= > tre of the rear panel between=0Aplug and pots. Lower adjustment leg to full= > y out. =0A=0AC: Thought I did that on the first try. It didn't seem easy to= > get the screws back in (in fact I gave up). I'll give it another go.=0A > I am puzzled as ot the reference to 'screws'. I think there's only one screw, a relatively large Phillips head one onder the plastic dome cover on the back. Are you removing soemthign else? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 14:15:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:15:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <95AA0D080EF040FDB6B54DEA7E46F9D4@Edicons.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 2, 12 06:50:13 am Message-ID: > > Whilst I do agree your safety concerns. I would say not all tubes have th= > is > arrangement and that the thin bits are at the other end. The point is the > tube is being supported as intended at the four front corners by the meta= > l > band made for that purpose. I am sure the tension band is also part of the implosion protection, and you are leaving that alone. However, I've seen CRT data sheets which stat that the CRT has a 'twin panel faceplate' or soemthing similar and that this is also part of the implosion protection system. My view is that unless you _know_ the CRT can't implode violently even with the outer faceplate removed, you should not leave it off. Unfortunately, no manufacture is going to say that (even if it is true), due to liabiltiy concerns, so I don't know how to be sure. > > Having spent some time in a re-gunning facility maybe I'm just used to CR= > T's I am not commmenting on the fact that yuou're doing things that could be dangerous if doen incorrectly _while you are doing them_. Let me give you an analogy. I think we all agree that 400V DC at essentially unlimited current is lethal. And yet many of us routinely work on SMPUs that have that sort of voltage derrived directly from the mains. I try to be careful when I;m working on one... But, no way would I leave a device in service with the 400V rail exposed. It's one thing to have it l;ike that on the bench when you're the only person around, it's quite another when other people might ocme into contact with it. I would not have a machine 'in use' with safety covers on the PSU remvoed or missing. And IMHO it's the same with CRTs. If you know what yo are doing, it is almost certainly safe to cut trhoug hthe bonding, remvoe he faceplate and rebond it. But I feel you should end up wit hthe CRT in as safe a condition as it was when it was made. Not with protecive parts remvoed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 13:52:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:52:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <734EB7AB-2DCB-40B8-9BDD-D98E3849B571@me.com> from "Derrik Walker" at Apr 1, 12 02:39:42 pm Message-ID: > > Two is a prime number. > > One is NOT a Prime number. I think this was pretty clearly explained > by Euclid. To be fair, you can define the 'prime numbers' to include one or not. Both sets exist. But it simplifies a lot of theroems if you don't class one as a prime numbner (as somebody said last night, if you include 1 in the set of primes to get a lot of theorems for 'prime numbers other than one', if you don't there are relatively few times where you have to say 'the set of prime numbers and 1'. But I absolutely agree that most, if not all, mathematicians do not include 1 i nthe set of prime numbers and it makes a lot of sense ot use the same defintion as the rest of the world :-) > > For some reason, they teach that one is a prime in schools ... why > ... Wish I knew. Having suffeed schools in the UK for many years, I have come to the conclusion that just about everything I was taught, from 'A drird orange is called an apricot' right up to 'A comparison is not a measurement'[1] was downright incorrect. Fortunataely I had access to real books on the subjects that interested me and read them... [1] As I ahve said before, I would love to see a defintion of measurement that does not involve comparison to a standard. That's what a measurement _is_. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 13:54:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:54:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120401134147.A18224@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 1, 12 01:47:20 pm Message-ID: > On a serious note, I am looking for a Douglas Adams quote > about the ability of word processors to justify any idea. Or as somebody once said to me 'Can you justify the TeXbook?' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 14:23:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:23:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79AC8F.2010108@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 2, 12 09:41:35 am Message-ID: > > On 04/01/2012 05:23 PM, Derrik Walker wrote: > > One is a unit. And, by definition, units are NOT prime. > > > > But that doesn't matter. Whats frakked up, is that they still teach one is a prime to this day. > > No. What's frakked up is this gang's total obsession with strict > classification and labeling. Not really... There are certain matchematical statements that are provably true for certain subsets of the integers. In some cases it makes sense to give the particualr subset for which the statement is true its own name, particularly when the same subset of the integers turns up in several different theroems. That's why defining the prime numbers as not including 1 is sensible. It's just a neame for a subset of the integers that turns up all over the place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 14:26:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:26:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re-inking plotter pens (Epson HI-80) In-Reply-To: <4F79C92A.4000001@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 2, 12 10:43:38 am Message-ID: > > > I acquired a little Epson HI-80 plotter the other day - for a > "consumer-grade" device with a small page size it looks to be quite a nice > little unit. Of course the pens are all but dried up (there's a little life > left in the red and blue, enough to see that the self-test is working). Is this the unit with a row of 4 pens in a siding part on the carriage? and with a 4 way button to do manual mocement? If so, I have one somewhere, but alas no spare pens (and I am sure the oens in my unit are dead) But I am also lookign for any docuemtation on it. A list of the commands would be a good start ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 14:00:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:00:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <1333321703.21424.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 1, 12 04:08:23 pm Message-ID: > > > not going to be an issue in my case. Still cant get it open...if by > screws the poster meant the hexagonal lugs or whatever in back then i > guess its april 1 after all... I can assure you I do not post misleading techncial information at any time. Or at least not delibarately misleading information (I obviosuly make mistakes). [FWIW, in England, April Fool's Day ends at noon. If you play a joke after that time, the joke is on you.] But back to the monitor. It sounds like you're remvoig nthe 2 little hexagonal jackposts on the DA15 connector. No, those are not what I mean. You don't have to remove those. Near that connector, between it and the 2 thumbwheel controls I think, there's a plastic dome about 5/8" across. Prise that off (Pry it off, I guess). Under it is a Phillips head screw. Take thoat one out, then the cover will side off. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 14:37:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:37:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 2, 12 11:32:49 am Message-ID: > Improvements in factoring large primes would permit virtual control of the > current cryptography market. THAT could carry some large dollars. Factoring _prime_ numbers, large or small, is hardly difficult :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 2 14:40:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:40:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79FC42.4020507@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 2, 12 12:21:38 pm Message-ID: > Yes, that was my point. Factoring very large prime numbers is trivial. > Gates obviously meant "factoring products of two very large prime > numbers", but got it wrong. Just another M$ bug.... -tony From jws at jwsss.com Mon Apr 2 16:13:52 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:13:52 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? (LEVITY?, APRIL FOOLS? Please clarify.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7A1690.8030209@jwsss.com> if there is any postings in this thread which could later be found by someone unfamiliar with CRT's and they were posted in jest, can someone tag those threads and postings? this is way to serious a subject to have joke material in for someone to discover in a couple of years and blow up a CRT of any sort. Like joking about observing solar eclipse events on a serious astronomy thread in the obvious ways. Just saying. I am still not sure from what I saw if anyone was joking around, with things like the hot wire treatment,etc, but I'd never post that as any approach unless one had their life insurance paid up. I'm posting on replies by tony, who is serious and am not referring to him except that he was the latest to express confusion about whether the info and query was serious or a joke. Apologies if it was serious, but I'm not clear seeing this, and it is not particularly a joking matter. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 2 16:45:02 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 17:45:02 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Decision Data 6606 printer Message-ID: I have a big old Decision Data model 6606 line printer that is rusted, busted, done and dusted. I am considering sending to the grinder, because it would be a *lot* of work getting back and running. My mind would be really put at ease if someone on the East coast had a nicer DD 6606 that they would like to part with (which, when it comes to floor standing line printers, is not too much to ask). Anyone? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 2 16:50:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:50:04 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79FCAC.3060404@brouhaha.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net>, <4F79FCAC.3060404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F79BC9C.22263.15B0363@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2012 at 12:23, Eric Smith wrote: > Nope. It's already possible to factor large primes, very easily and > quickly, with only minimal computer resources. Let me test that. 2,305,843,009,213,693,951 has factors 2,305,843,009,213,693,951 and 1. Yup, that works for me... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 2 16:52:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:52:17 -0700 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79FCAC.3060404@brouhaha.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net>, <4F79FCAC.3060404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F79BD21.12082.15D0D7B@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2012 at 12:23, Eric Smith wrote: > Nope. It's already possible to factor large primes, very easily and > quickly, with only minimal computer resources. Let me test that. 2,305,843,009,213,693,951 has factors 2,305,843,009,213,693,951 and 1. Yup, that works for me... --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 2 18:38:13 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 19:38:13 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F7A3865.5060508@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/12 9:55 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 4/2/2012 9:18 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 02/04/12 2:25 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Derrik Walker wrote: >>>> Whats frakked up, is that they still teach one is a prime to this day. >>> >>> I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical >>> problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime >>> numbers. >>> >>> >> >> The only large numbers he is interested in are dollars. >> >> --T > > And of course in donating an extremely large portion of those dollars to > good causes. > ...like buying PR at the rate of $1 mil/day. --T > http://www.moneyhowmuch.com/2010/05/if-you-had-bill-gates-money-how-much-of.html > > > including $10 Billion over 10 years for vaccines > > http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/29/us-davos-vaccines-idUSTRE60S3K420100129 > > > Keith > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 2 18:38:45 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 19:38:45 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F7A3885.8040306@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/12 10:14 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/02/2012 09:55 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: >>>> I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical >>>> problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime >>>> numbers. >>> >>> The only large numbers he is interested in are dollars. >> >> And of course in donating an extremely large portion of those dollars to >> good causes. >> >> http://www.moneyhowmuch.com/2010/05/if-you-had-bill-gates-money-how-much-of.html >> >> >> including $10 Billion over 10 years for vaccines >> >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/29/us-davos-vaccines-idUSTRE60S3K420100129 > > Guilt is a difficult thing to deal with, but it's easily assuaged when > you've got that much money. The side benefit is reputation laundering. But I don't think guilt or a conscience was anything he was burdened with, or he'd never have got where he is. --T > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 2 18:40:27 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 19:40:27 -0400 Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/12 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On a serious note, I am looking for a Douglas Adams quote >> about the ability of word processors to justify any idea. > > Or as somebody once said to me 'Can you justify the TeXbook?' TeX is one of those systems (like Perl, etc) which has one implementation. Can you _imagine_ the task of building a TeX-compatible compiler whose compliance test were typesetting the TeXbook... :-X --Toby > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 2 19:29:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 20:29:41 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F7A3885.8040306@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> <4F7A3885.8040306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F7A4475.8090501@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2012 07:38 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical >>>>> problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime >>>>> numbers. >>>> >>>> The only large numbers he is interested in are dollars. >>> >>> And of course in donating an extremely large portion of those dollars to >>> good causes. >>> >>> http://www.moneyhowmuch.com/2010/05/if-you-had-bill-gates-money-how-much-of.html >>> >>> including $10 Billion over 10 years for vaccines >>> >>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/29/us-davos-vaccines-idUSTRE60S3K420100129 >> >> Guilt is a difficult thing to deal with, but it's easily assuaged when >> you've got that much money. > > The side benefit is reputation laundering. But I don't think guilt or a > conscience was anything he was burdened with, or he'd never have got > where he is. Very true; as this isn't a merit-based society. He was a damn good programmer "back in the day", though; pity he didn't stick to that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Apr 2 20:33:47 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 18:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE: "Electronics" magazines from 1973-1975 Message-ID: <1333416827.82454.YahooMailClassic@web110610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> About 2 dozen old "Electronics" magazines - see photos here: http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/electronics1.jpg http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/electronics2.jpg You pick-up or pay shipping from 92656 So Cal. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 2 20:41:03 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 21:41:03 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F7A4475.8090501@neurotica.com> References: <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> <4F7A3885.8040306@telegraphics.com.au> <4F7A4475.8090501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F7A552F.3090409@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/12 8:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/02/2012 07:38 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>>> I wonder how much progress Bill Gates has made on the mathematical >>>>>> problem he pointed out in his book, of factoring very large prime >>>>>> numbers. >>>>> >>>>> The only large numbers he is interested in are dollars. >>>> >>>> And of course in donating an extremely large portion of those dollars to >>>> good causes. >>>> >>>> http://www.moneyhowmuch.com/2010/05/if-you-had-bill-gates-money-how-much-of.html >>>> >>>> including $10 Billion over 10 years for vaccines >>>> >>>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/29/us-davos-vaccines-idUSTRE60S3K420100129 >>> >>> Guilt is a difficult thing to deal with, but it's easily assuaged when >>> you've got that much money. >> >> The side benefit is reputation laundering. But I don't think guilt or a >> conscience was anything he was burdened with, or he'd never have got >> where he is. > > Very true; as this isn't a merit-based society. He was a damn good > programmer "back in the day", though; pity he didn't stick to that. Yep. He would have done society a world of good, relatively speaking, if he'd rotted in a cubicle. --Toby > > -Dave > From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 2 21:09:21 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 22:09:21 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Apr 2012 20:29:41 EDT.) <4F7A4475.8090501@neurotica.com> References: <4F7A4475.8090501@neurotica.com> <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> <4F7A3885.8040306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120403020921.C05C6A5829F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Very true; as this isn't a merit-based society. He was a damn good > programmer "back in the day", though; pity he didn't stick to that. Some of the things I've heard about the early basic interpreter make me wonder if he was really a good programmer. De From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 2 21:19:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 22:19:33 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120403020921.C05C6A5829F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4F7A4475.8090501@neurotica.com> <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> <4F7A3885.8040306@telegraphics.com.au> <20120403020921.C05C6A5829F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F7A5E35.9080704@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2012 10:09 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Very true; as this isn't a merit-based society. He was a damn good > > programmer "back in the day", though; pity he didn't stick to that. > > Some of the things I've heard about the early basic interpreter make me > wonder if he was really a good programmer. I dunno, I've studied that code in particular, and there's some clever stuff in there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 2 21:30:39 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 22:30:39 -0400 Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120403020921.C05C6A5829F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4F7A4475.8090501@neurotica.com> <20120401162810.20A7DA5829B@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4F7833CA.22774.8DFE67@cclist.sydex.com> <4F789903.2000200@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F78418E.12697.C3C436@cclist.sydex.com> <4F78BD9F.4010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <2565FF34-2598-48D3-A8FC-B200918A5FA9@me.com> <4F79464A.3030103@brouhaha.com> <4F79A743.8010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4F79AFBA.5080401@verizon.net> <4F79B432.6040904@neurotica.com> <4F7A3885.8040306@telegraphics.com.au> <20120403020921.C05C6A5829F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F7A60CF.2000608@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/12 10:09 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Very true; as this isn't a merit-based society. He was a damn good > > programmer "back in the day", though; pity he didn't stick to that. > > Some of the things I've heard about the early basic interpreter make me > wonder if he was really a good programmer. The first "Programmers at Work" reprinted one of his assembly language columns, for anyone who wants to take a look at what is probably a primary source. I don't remember if it's any good, but then I don't wonder if Al Capone made great bolognese either. --Toby > > De > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 2 21:42:52 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 14:42:52 +1200 Subject: Gates Bashing (*sigh* yet again..) Was Re: PRIME NUMBERS Message-ID: Honestly guys. This conversation sounds very bitchy. If it wasn't Bill Gates who dominated the OS area in the 1980s and 1990s someone of the same ilk would of. Regardless what you think of them survival in business is always the survival of the fittest. Gates was at the top of that game for a while. Anyone who gets beats off the competition at that level has got to be ruthless and clever. I don't condone it, but its a fact. At least he IS doing something good with his money. Let's move on from the constant Microsoft bashing, please! Tez On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Very true; as this isn't a merit-based society. He was a damn good > > programmer "back in the day", though; pity he didn't stick to that. > > Some of the things I've heard about the early basic interpreter make me > wonder if he was really a good programmer. > > De > From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Apr 2 21:59:06 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:59:06 -0700 Subject: FREE: "Electronics" magazines from 1973-1975 In-Reply-To: <1333416827.82454.YahooMailClassic@web110610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1333416827.82454.YahooMailClassic@web110610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01cd1145$bc361910$34a24b30$@comcast.net> I am looking for a few issues but would pay for them all. Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 6:34 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: FREE: "Electronics" magazines from 1973-1975 About 2 dozen old "Electronics" magazines - see photos here: http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/electronics1.jpg http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/electronics2.jpg You pick-up or pay shipping from 92656 So Cal. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 2 22:05:19 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 22:05:19 -0500 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> Now that I have read in a few archival tapes and unpacked the simple ones (ANSI-D) I am looking at extracting files from VMS BACKUP tapes. I found a program vmsbackup originally by John Carey at Monash University in AU. It actually seems to understand my tape container format, maybe because it is practically identical to some other formats. But, it is complaining that my tape has 80-byte header records, and it wants 256. My tapes start out with VOL1, HDR1 and HDR2 80-byte records, then a tape mark and then the backup save set follows. I get the message : Invalid header block size: expected 256 got 80 So, does anyone know whether there is a version of this program that will handle a backup tape with 80-byte header records, or is there another program for extracting files from a VMS backup tape or save set that will run on Linux? Thanks, Jon From tom94022 at comcast.net Mon Apr 2 22:07:05 2012 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:07:05 -0700 Subject: FREE: "Electronics" magazines from 1973-1975 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FE7788391024173A39A63E27AACD0BE@tegp4> Steven: I'll take them, u can ship them FedX Ground using my FedEx number System Surety Group 14469 Manuella Rd Los Altos CA 94022 Account # 104208657 You can take them to a FedEx Office store and have them pack them if u want. They'll probably wind up at the Computer History Museum if they want them. Tom (650) 941-5324 > Message: 27 > Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 18:33:47 -0700 (PDT) > From: steven stengel > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: FREE: "Electronics" magazines from 1973-1975 > Message-ID: > <1333416827.82454.YahooMailClassic at web110610.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > About 2 dozen old "Electronics" magazines - see photos here: > > http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/electronics1.jpg > http://66.147.242.85/~oldcompu/maine/electronics2.jpg > > You pick-up or pay shipping from 92656 So Cal. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 2 22:46:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 23:46:45 -0400 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2012 11:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Now that I have read in a few archival tapes and unpacked the simple > ones (ANSI-D) I am looking at extracting files from VMS BACKUP > tapes. I found a program vmsbackup originally by John Carey at > Monash University in AU. It actually seems to understand my > tape container format, maybe because it is practically identical > to some other formats. But, it is complaining that my tape > has 80-byte header records, and it wants 256. My tapes start > out with VOL1, HDR1 and HDR2 80-byte records, then a tape mark and > then the backup save set follows. I get the message : > Invalid header block size: expected 256 got 80 > > So, does anyone know whether there is a version of this program that > will handle a backup tape with 80-byte header records, or is there > another program for extracting files from a VMS backup tape or > save set that will run on Linux? This may be a crazy idea, but...Why not do it with VMS? You can install simh on your Linux box, get VMS up and running in probably half an hour, complete with IP networking. Mount your tape images via simh and extract your savesets with the software that they were written to be extracted by. :) I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 2 23:00:04 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 00:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > TeX is one of those systems (like Perl, etc) which has one > implementation. Can you _imagine_ the task of building a > TeX-compatible compiler whose compliance test were typesetting the > TeXbook... :-X I once looked - briefly - at building an independent TeX implementation. It wasn't really possible. There are pieces of TeX for which existing documentation, at least at the time (meaning, the TeXBook) was insufficient. Consider, for example, the "Interwoven alignment preambles are not allowed." message on page 299, with no description of what it actually means; I'm fairly sure there is a statement somewhere that TeX's approach to something is interesting "but will not be discussed here", but I wasn't able to find it in a quick skim - I thought it was a footnote, but it doesn't seem to be. Someday, perhaps, when I have a spare year or so, I may sit down with the Web source and try to glark enough documentation to at least permit creating a compatible independent implementation. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 2 23:13:09 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 00:13:09 -0400 Subject: Gates Bashing (*sigh* yet again..) Was Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7A78D5.40301@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/12 10:42 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Honestly guys. This conversation sounds very bitchy. If it wasn't Bill > Gates who dominated the OS area in the 1980s and 1990s someone of the same > ilk would of. > > Regardless what you think of them survival in business is always the > survival of the fittest. Gates was at the top of that game for a while. > Anyone who gets beats off the competition at that level has got to be > ruthless and clever. I don't condone it, but its a fact. > > At least he IS doing something good with his money. That is very much a matter of debate, as you would see, if you did even a modest amount of research into the destinations and motives for Gates Foundation money. However, he has definitively proven - if it were ever doubted - that sufficient money will buy positive opinion among the habitually uncritical. > > Let's move on from the constant Microsoft bashing, please! If they change their spots, criticism won't be necessary. --Toby > > Tez > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> > Very true; as this isn't a merit-based society. He was a damn good >> > programmer "back in the day", though; pity he didn't stick to that. >> >> Some of the things I've heard about the early basic interpreter make me >> wonder if he was really a good programmer. >> >> De >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 2 23:15:07 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 00:15:07 -0400 Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F7A794B.2030307@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/04/12 12:00 AM, Mouse wrote: >> TeX is one of those systems (like Perl, etc) which has one >> implementation. Can you _imagine_ the task of building a >> TeX-compatible compiler whose compliance test were typesetting the >> TeXbook... :-X > > I once looked - briefly - at building an independent TeX > implementation. > > It wasn't really possible. There are pieces of TeX for which existing > documentation, at least at the time (meaning, the TeXBook) was > insufficient. Consider, for example, the "Interwoven alignment > preambles are not allowed." message on page 299, with no description of > what it actually means; I'm fairly sure there is a statement somewhere > that TeX's approach to something is interesting "but will not be > discussed here", but I wasn't able to find it in a quick skim - I > thought it was a footnote, but it doesn't seem to be. > > Someday, perhaps, when I have a spare year or so, I may sit down with > the Web source and try to glark enough documentation to at least permit > creating a compatible independent implementation. There are better things to do with your life, surely, since the existing implementation is so damned good. :) --Toby > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 3 01:02:21 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 02:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F7A794B.2030307@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F7A794B.2030307@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201204030602.CAA17092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Someday, perhaps, when I have a spare year or so, I may sit down >> with the Web source [to TeX] and try to glark enough documentation >> to at least permit creating a compatible independent implementation. > There are better things to do with your life, surely, since the > existing implementation is so damned good. :) The implementation does not exist in a vacuum. In particular, it does not exist independent of its documentation. And, as I said, as far as I can tell (and I don't see you disagreeing), it is documented rather poorly. In particular, it is not documented in enough detail for the independent creation of a compatible implementation. The TeXbook is a good user's manual for the existing implementation. But it is a user's manual; it does not contain a spec (though it does contain substantial portions of one). As for better things to do with my life...if you can convince me you know what gives my life worth to me, I'll listen. Until then, about all such statements do is give me reason to believe you think you know more than you actually do. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 2 13:19:06 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <5ED903AEDBEA407F88212E7AE4221C60@Edicons.local> References: <1333241809.2908.yint-ygo-j2me@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5ED903AEDBEA407F88212E7AE4221C60@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <1333390746.81908.YahooMailNeo@web164501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ok...opened. For the lift of me didn't suspect that blob was a cover, but rather an alignment peg or something. Based on some past experience I would have to think. Do I now cut the tie wraps, or attempt to get a skinny phillips to remove the screws securing the tube to the bezel? And once the tube is exposed and cleaned up, I can epoxy or simply hot glue maybe any piece of plexi/lexan to the face, no? Thickness? From lorddoomicus at me.com Mon Apr 2 13:41:47 2012 From: lorddoomicus at me.com (Derrik Walker) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 18:41:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120402112956.Q55502@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Apr 02, 2012, at 02:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: There is an urban legend of a college kid coming up with an improved factoring algorithm, and being "recruited" by the NSA. ("This job offer is not voluntary.") ? The NSA Security Clearance is brutal, ?I've heard it's version of the SF-86 is over 100 pages long. So what if he could not get his TS/SCI or pass the Polygraph test I wonder?? - Derrik From cstadler18 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 2 14:15:18 2012 From: cstadler18 at hotmail.com (Craig J Stadler) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:15:18 -0400 Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 Message-ID: Is this email address still active? Need to speak to someone about usenet archives... -Craig From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Apr 3 02:02:54 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:02:54 +0200 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/02/2012 11:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > Now that I have read in a few archival tapes and unpacked the simple > > ones (ANSI-D) I am looking at extracting files from VMS BACKUP > > tapes. I found a program vmsbackup originally by John Carey at > > Monash University in AU. It actually seems to understand my > > tape container format, maybe because it is practically identical > > to some other formats. But, it is complaining that my tape > > has 80-byte header records, and it wants 256. My tapes start > > out with VOL1, HDR1 and HDR2 80-byte records, then a tape mark and > > then the backup save set follows. I get the message : > > Invalid header block size: expected 256 got 80 > > > > So, does anyone know whether there is a version of this program that > > will handle a backup tape with 80-byte header records, or is there > > another program for extracting files from a VMS backup tape or > > save set that will run on Linux? > > This may be a crazy idea, but...Why not do it with VMS? > > You can install simh on your Linux box, get VMS up and running in > probably half an hour, complete with IP networking. Mount your tape > images via simh and extract your savesets with the software that they > were written to be extracted by. :) > > I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't > take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like > some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" > simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in a "canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 3 07:05:39 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 07:05:39 -0500 Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204030602.CAA17092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F7A794B.2030307@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030602.CAA17092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201204031210.q33CA3Tt081214@billy.ezwind.net> At 01:02 AM 4/3/2012, Mouse wrote: >As for better things to do with my life...if you can convince me you >know what gives my life worth to me, I'll listen. Until then, about >all such statements do is give me reason to believe you think you know >more than you actually do. Someday, I'll get one of those $2.56 checks. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 3 07:19:13 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 07:19:13 -0500 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> At 02:02 AM 4/3/2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: >Dave McGuire wrote: >> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't >> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like >> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" >> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. > >As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in a >"canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... Like a VMware appliance? - John From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 07:24:31 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:24:31 -0400 Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204031210.q33CA3Tt081214@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F7A794B.2030307@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030602.CAA17092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201204031210.q33CA3Tt081214@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2012, at 8:05 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 01:02 AM 4/3/2012, Mouse wrote: >> As for better things to do with my life...if you can convince me you >> know what gives my life worth to me, I'll listen. Until then, about >> all such statements do is give me reason to believe you think you know >> more than you actually do. > > > Someday, I'll get one of those $2.56 checks. I think he's stopped sending them, mostly because of the absurd ease with which one can commit bank fraud: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news08.html Sad. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 07:28:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:28:08 -0400 Subject: Gates Bashing (*sigh* yet again..) Was Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F7A78D5.40301@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F7A78D5.40301@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <79B9D1A3-8F58-4F94-AB04-DE97F5710C81@gmail.com> On Apr 3, 2012, at 12:13 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/04/12 10:42 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> At least he IS doing something good with his money. > > That is very much a matter of debate, as you would see, if you did even a modest amount of research into the destinations and motives for Gates Foundation money. > > However, he has definitively proven - if it were ever doubted - that sufficient money will buy positive opinion among the habitually uncritical. An effect first documented (in detail, and with great glee) by Andrew Carnegie, notorious tyrant and union buster. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 3 07:31:13 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 08:31:13 -0400 Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204030602.CAA17092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F7A794B.2030307@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030602.CAA17092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F7AED91.4030708@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/04/12 2:02 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> Someday, perhaps, when I have a spare year or so, I may sit down >>> with the Web source [to TeX] and try to glark enough documentation >>> to at least permit creating a compatible independent implementation. > >> There are better things to do with your life, surely, since the >> existing implementation is so damned good. :) > > The implementation does not exist in a vacuum. In particular, it does > not exist independent of its documentation. And, as I said, as far as > I can tell (and I don't see you disagreeing), it is documented rather > poorly. In particular, it is not documented in enough detail for the > independent creation of a compatible implementation. > > The TeXbook is a good user's manual for the existing implementation. > But it is a user's manual; it does not contain a spec (though it does > contain substantial portions of one). Yes, and I found it a good manual. I agree there is no "spec". But I never needed one in order to use TeX. I'm still not convinced a 2nd implementation is needed -- is it? > > As for better things to do with my life...if you can convince me you > know what gives my life worth to me, I'll listen. Until then, about > all such statements do is give me reason to believe you think you know > more than you actually do. Huh? It's a figure of speech. You aren't meant to take it literally. --T > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 07:49:17 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:49:17 -0400 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <79DF0181-988F-4BBC-AC94-3D776DE6B463@gmail.com> On Apr 3, 2012, at 8:19 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 02:02 AM 4/3/2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't >>> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like >>> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" >>> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. >> >> As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in a >> "canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... > > > Like a VMware appliance? The concept isn't super different; I'm assuming Dave means a zip or tarball of a premade image and SIMH config file that you can just run with "vax vms-7.3.cfg" or something. Having recently gone through the process of building VMS from scratch (with copious help from an online tutorial from Hoffman Labs), it's non-trivial for the uninitiated (plus you need to get install media from somewhere, which took me about a month from Montagar). - Dave From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 3 07:46:52 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 07:46:52 -0500 Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F7A794B.2030307@telegraphics.com.au> <201204030602.CAA17092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201204031210.q33CA3Tt081214@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201204031249.q33CnTpJ082644@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:24 AM 4/3/2012, David Riley wrote: >On Apr 3, 2012, at 8:05 AM, John Foust wrote: > >> Someday, I'll get one of those $2.56 checks. > >I think he's stopped sending them, mostly because of the absurd ease >with which one can commit bank fraud: I was going to write "personal certificates of deposit" but thought that was a bit too pedantic. I'm on the trail of one... finding the name behind the middle initial of Margaret Odell, co-inventor of Soundex. I believe Knuth's hints were on the wrong trail. I found her grave and family. No living relatives. Two more years and I can request her death certificate. - John From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 3 08:07:03 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 14:07:03 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <95AA0D080EF040FDB6B54DEA7E46F9D4@Edicons.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 2, 12 06:50:13 am Message-ID: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local> All well and good. One tiny point. I worked for DEC Terminals Product Line when those items where in current production. The tubes were just fine without the face plate and met all implosion requirements. Some (Green I think) did not have them at all. However certain national safety specifications required the second screen and its anti splinter layer. This was regardless of if the underlying tube met the implosion spec. The spec was that it was present and its materials met the requirements. I think they put them on all the white ones to save having two different cases. I am perhaps a bit over familiar with the way I handle CRT's. However in the time when I was a student apprentice in the 1960's I did work in a High Voltage test lab (Anybody for a bit of 500KV?) and the guy I worked for had been part of the original EMI television development team in the late 1930'. Guess who got stuck with mending cranky 1950's TV's with live chassis? "Isolation Transformer Rod? What do you want one of those for?" I passed all of the safety tests. In those days they consisted of still being alive when you left. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 02 April 2012 20:16 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? > > Whilst I do agree your safety concerns. I would say not all tubes have th= > is > arrangement and that the thin bits are at the other end. The point is the > tube is being supported as intended at the four front corners by the meta= > l > band made for that purpose. I am sure the tension band is also part of the implosion protection, and you are leaving that alone. However, I've seen CRT data sheets which stat that the CRT has a 'twin panel faceplate' or soemthing similar and that this is also part of the implosion protection system. My view is that unless you _know_ the CRT can't implode violently even with the outer faceplate removed, you should not leave it off. Unfortunately, no manufacture is going to say that (even if it is true), due to liabiltiy concerns, so I don't know how to be sure. > > Having spent some time in a re-gunning facility maybe I'm just used to CR= > T's I am not commmenting on the fact that yuou're doing things that could be dangerous if doen incorrectly _while you are doing them_. Let me give you an analogy. I think we all agree that 400V DC at essentially unlimited current is lethal. And yet many of us routinely work on SMPUs that have that sort of voltage derrived directly from the mains. I try to be careful when I;m working on one... But, no way would I leave a device in service with the 400V rail exposed. It's one thing to have it l;ike that on the bench when you're the only person around, it's quite another when other people might ocme into contact with it. I would not have a machine 'in use' with safety covers on the PSU remvoed or missing. And IMHO it's the same with CRTs. If you know what yo are doing, it is almost certainly safe to cut trhoug hthe bonding, remvoe he faceplate and rebond it. But I feel you should end up wit hthe CRT in as safe a condition as it was when it was made. Not with protecive parts remvoed. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 08:50:14 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 09:50:14 -0400 Subject: Ethanol in the diet [was Re: another hidden pdp11] In-Reply-To: <4F7580D8.1936.51AEA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201203301622.MAA23092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F7580D8.1936.51AEA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F7B0016.2060700@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Like everything else, the devil's in the details. Even your most > hard-core Mormon will probably enjoy a cool drink of ginger ale or > root beer (if fermented, probably about 0.5 percent alcohol). Do any > other fermented foods, such as sauerkraut contain alcohol in traces? Bread has alcohol in it. It's in a high enough concentration that you can smell it, usually. Peace... Sridhar From kfergason at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 08:56:55 2012 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:56:55 -0500 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Sent from my iPad On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:19 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 02:02 AM 4/3/2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't >>> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like >>> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" >>> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. >> >> As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in a >> "canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... > > > Like a VMware appliance? > > - John > I would really like something like this for the hp 2000f and the TSB. Kelly From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 3 09:00:03 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:00:03 -0500 Subject: OT: Re: Gates Bashing ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 21:43 -0500 4/2/12, Terry wrote: >At least he IS doing something good with his money. Well said. Hear, hear! >Let's move on from the constant Microsoft bashing, please! I do make a distinction between Gates bashing and Microsoft bashing, and yet another distinction between unthinking Microsoft bashing (not meritorious in its own right) and bashing of specific destructive practices (somewhat meritorious in my view). And finally, another distinction between that and making constructive suggestions or contributions to correct damage done by destructive practices (highly meritorious in my view). I applaud the suggestion to move from one end of that spectrum to the other. But I think I merely elaborate what Terry said first and more concisely. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 3 10:11:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 11:11:58 -0400 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <79DF0181-988F-4BBC-AC94-3D776DE6B463@gmail.com> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> <79DF0181-988F-4BBC-AC94-3D776DE6B463@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F7B133E.7080504@neurotica.com> On 04/03/2012 08:49 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't >>>> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like >>>> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" >>>> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. >>> >>> As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in a >>> "canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... >> >> >> Like a VMware appliance? > > The concept isn't super different; I'm assuming Dave means a zip or > tarball of a premade image and SIMH config file that you can just > run with "vax vms-7.3.cfg" or something. That's sorta what I was thinking. The legalities would prevent me from distributing such a thing, though. I'd have to remove my license and you'd have to install your own (easy to do) before doing anything with it. > Having recently gone through > the process of building VMS from scratch (with copious help from an > online tutorial from Hoffman Labs), it's non-trivial for the uninitiated Oh c'mon, it's not that tough. ;) > (plus you need to get install media from somewhere, which took me > about a month from Montagar). I wish I'd known you needed it! :-/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Apr 3 10:25:38 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 11:25:38 -0400 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <4F7B133E.7080504@neurotica.com> References: , <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com>, <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de>, <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net>, <79DF0181-988F-4BBC-AC94-3D776DE6B463@gmail.com>, <4F7B133E.7080504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: set it up then when it's ready, remove any licenses,make the image and then distribute that,along with instructions on how to add your own license. it could even auto-start tcp/ip, do the bridging and stuff for novices. it wouldn't be that hard or is there still a legalities issue with distributing the image itself? > Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 11:11:58 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Reading VMS backup tapes > > On 04/03/2012 08:49 AM, David Riley wrote: > >>> Dave McGuire wrote: > >>>> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't > >>>> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like > >>>> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" > >>>> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. > >>> > >>> As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in a > >>> "canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... > >> > >> > >> Like a VMware appliance? > > > > The concept isn't super different; I'm assuming Dave means a zip or > > tarball of a premade image and SIMH config file that you can just > > run with "vax vms-7.3.cfg" or something. > > That's sorta what I was thinking. The legalities would prevent me > from distributing such a thing, though. I'd have to remove my license > and you'd have to install your own (easy to do) before doing anything > with it. > > > Having recently gone through > > the process of building VMS from scratch (with copious help from an > > online tutorial from Hoffman Labs), it's non-trivial for the uninitiated > > Oh c'mon, it's not that tough. ;) > > > (plus you need to get install media from somewhere, which took me > > about a month from Montagar). > > I wish I'd known you needed it! :-/ > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 3 11:03:33 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Apr 2012, John Foust wrote: > At 02:02 AM 4/3/2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't >>> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like >>> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" >>> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. >> >> As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in a >> "canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... > > > Like a VMware appliance? > *drools* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 3 11:06:12 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 16:06:12 +0000 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <4F7B133E.7080504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4/3/12 8:11 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >On 04/03/2012 08:49 AM, David Riley wrote: >>>> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please >>>>>don't >>>>> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like >>>>> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a >>>>>"canned" >>>>> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. >>>> >>>> As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in >>>>a >>>> "canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... >>> >>> >>> Like a VMware appliance? >> >> The concept isn't super different; I'm assuming Dave means a zip or >> tarball of a premade image and SIMH config file that you can just >> run with "vax vms-7.3.cfg" or something. > > That's sorta what I was thinking. The legalities would prevent me >from distributing such a thing, though. I'd have to remove my license >and you'd have to install your own (easy to do) before doing anything >with it. > >> Having recently gone through >> the process of building VMS from scratch (with copious help from an >> online tutorial from Hoffman Labs), it's non-trivial for the uninitiated > > Oh c'mon, it's not that tough. ;) > >> (plus you need to get install media from somewhere, which took me >> about a month from Montagar). > I just recently renewed my licenses and they have rewritten the script to be VERY user-friendly. Instead of having to remove all the old licenses manually (so you don't get a string of errors every time you start up) the DCL does it for you - it also loads the licenses after installing them. Soooo, what makes sense IMHO is a premade image with the licenses removed, as you say, Dave. Then the recipient gets his/her own licenses (which takes only a few hours at worst) and runs that script. To get the script onto the emulated VAX, I recommend using a terminal emulator that allows you to set a significant delay between lines, especially with the emulator, whose input buffer otherwise seems to fill up and choke. Then start the ASCII upload and go get a cup of coffee. -- Ian From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Apr 3 11:16:55 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 17:16:55 +0100 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 3 April 2012 17:03, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2012, John Foust wrote: > >> At 02:02 AM 4/3/2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> As you know Dave I have very similar problems. I'm very interested in a >>> "canned" VMS - SIMH Version too... >> >> Like a VMware appliance? >> > *drools* Back when I was an apprentice at Ferranti, I had lots of tinker time on their networked VAX systems (VMS 4,3 I think) and it would be fun to have a play again and see if I can remember enough to justify it still being on my CV! I really don't have the time to devot to getting to grips with simh, locating images and and working out how to install it all etc. A ready-to-roll VM type thing would definitely get a download off me, though! Please consider it.. Rob From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 3 11:49:49 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 11:49:49 -0500 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201204031649.q33GnsPT091521@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:16 AM 4/3/2012, Rob wrote: >getting to grips with simh, locating images and and working out how to >install it all etc. A ready-to-roll VM type thing would definitely >get a download off me, though! Please consider it.. I bit of googling showed a few people on the SimH mailing list were thinking about a virtual appliance version. I don't know if they did it. They were talking about a stripped-down Linux. So how would we connect a glass terminal or a DECwriter to it? - John From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 3 11:58:56 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 11:58:56 -0500 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7B2C50.7080702@pico-systems.com> > From: Dave McGuire > > This may be a crazy idea, but...Why not do it with VMS? > Well, I have a real VAXstation here, with a tape interface that probably works, and I probably still have ESDI drives with VMS on them. But.... > You can install simh on your Linux box, get VMS up and running in > probably half an hour, complete with IP networking. Mount your tape > images via simh and extract your savesets with the software that they > were written to be extracted by. :) > I have great difficulty thinking it is that simple. > I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't > take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like > some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" > simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. > I got simh to teach my kids some machine language programming on the PDP-11. (We had a class last Sunday.) I appreciate the offer, but this would be a last resort. I know VMS darn well, I was system manager and general developer on two VAX systems, and then on Alpha systems for a number of years. I ran a MicroVAX (KA-630) in my home from 1986 to 2007 when the hard drive broke. I upgraded it over the years, wrote my own driver for a 3rd party tape controller that never had a VMS driver, wrote a driver and built an interface for a Jupiter 7 graphics system, and interfaced a bunch of home energy monitoring stuff to it. Also attached a VCB-02 color graphics board set to it, which was never really supposed to work on a KA-630, but it did. Just the console wouldn't work right through the VCB-02, so sometimes I had to hook up a serial terminal. But, although I REALLY liked VMS 20+ years ago, I have moved on, and am now pretty comfortable in Linux. (Do miss the regularity of VMS, if you know how to specify the options of one command, then all similar commands will be the same.) The purpose of this exercise is to recover archival programs before the tapes turn into dust. If all else fails, I suppose I could go that way, but this vmsbackup program seems to try to work, it probably needs a little tweak. It detects the 80 byte header records and stops. All the VMS Backup tapes I've checked so far have two 80 byte headers, this program seems to want one 256-byte header. Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 3 13:30:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 14:30:16 -0400 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <4F7B2C50.7080702@pico-systems.com> References: <4F7B2C50.7080702@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4F7B41B8.1050604@neurotica.com> On 04/03/2012 12:58 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> You can install simh on your Linux box, get VMS up and running in >> probably half an hour, complete with IP networking. Mount your tape >> images via simh and extract your savesets with the software that they >> were written to be extracted by. :) >> > I have great difficulty thinking it is that simple. Well, I just timed it: Clean slate to running VMS system with a tape image mounted on an emulated drive, under simh. 26 minutes. But suit yourself. ;) >> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't >> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like >> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" >> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. >> > I got simh to teach my kids some machine language programming on the > PDP-11. > (We had a class last Sunday.) Nice!! How old are they? (if you don't mind my asking, I am just curious) > I appreciate the offer, but this would be a last resort. I know VMS > darn well, I was > system manager and general developer on two VAX systems, and then on Alpha > systems for a number of years. I ran a MicroVAX (KA-630) in my home from > 1986 to 2007 when the hard drive broke. I upgraded it over the years, > wrote > my own driver for a 3rd party tape controller that never had a VMS driver, > wrote a driver and built an interface for a Jupiter 7 graphics system, > and interfaced > a bunch of home energy monitoring stuff to it. Also attached a VCB-02 > color > graphics board set to it, which was never really supposed to work on a > KA-630, but it did. Just the console wouldn't work right through the > VCB-02, > so sometimes I had to hook up a serial terminal. Sweet!! > But, although I REALLY liked VMS 20+ years ago, I have moved on, and > am now pretty comfortable in Linux. (Do miss the regularity of VMS, if you > know how to specify the options of one command, then all similar commands > will be the same.) The purpose of this exercise is to recover archival > programs > before the tapes turn into dust. Good plan. I still love VMS, though, but I'm a UNIX guy through and through. > If all else fails, I suppose I could go that way, but this vmsbackup > program > seems to try to work, it probably needs a little tweak. It detects the > 80 byte > header records and stops. All the VMS Backup tapes I've checked so far > have two 80 byte headers, this program seems to want one 256-byte header. That doesn't sound too tough to deal with. Good luck! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From slandon at centurylink.net Tue Apr 3 14:39:02 2012 From: slandon at centurylink.net (Steven Landon) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 15:39:02 -0400 Subject: For Sale: Tandy/Radio Shack Documentation & Hardware Message-ID: <4F7B51D6.3000406@centurylink.net> Im cleaning out the shed. I got tons of tandy radio shack documentation, Also got a Tandy 1400HD Laptop that wont power up, Along with a Tandy 386 and a Tandy 486 that work perfect. 2 Huge boxes full of Micro80 Magazine, and Microcomputer magazine Lots of Model 1, 3 and 4/4p Owners Manuals Lots of software manuals.. If anyones interested in the lot I can get a listing. Id like to sell this off in one lot to get my shed space back. Im thinking $200 for it all, and theres enough to fill the back of a car. Local Pickup is always welcome at my place in Flushing MI From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 3 14:46:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:46:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <4F7A38EB.4020607@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Apr 2, 12 07:40:27 pm Message-ID: > TeX is one of those systems (like Perl, etc) which has one > implementation. Can you _imagine_ the task of building a TeX-compatible > compiler whose compliance test were typesetting the TeXbook... :-X I beleive there _are_ a set of compliance tests for a TeX implementation, point being that all 'TeXs' have to split lines, etc in exactly the same way under all conmditions. This means handling round errors correctly and things like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 3 14:23:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:23:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <1333390746.81908.YahooMailNeo@web164501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 2, 12 11:19:06 am Message-ID: > > ok...opened. For the lift of me didn't suspect that blob was a cover, > but rather an alignment peg or something. Based on some past experience > I would have to think. Yes, it certainly is non-obvious :-) > > Do I now cut the tie wraps, or attempt to get a skinny phillips to > remove the screws securing the tube to the bezel? And once the tube is > exposed and cleaned up, I can epoxy or simply hot glue maybe any piece > of plexi/lexan to the face, no? Thickness? When I dismantled on of my VR201s to clean it, I am sure I remvoed the pCB on its own, then the CRT. >From what I recall, I discharged the CRT anode connector to the outer coating using my EHT meter (it's the Heathkit one, nothing more than an 800M reissotr in series with a 50uA meter. As well as measuring EHT, it makes a good bleeder for such things) and then remvoed the anode cap from the CRT. Unplugged the CRT base conenctor next. I can't remember how the yoke is conencted,m if it's a plug nand socket, just unplug it, otherwise I'd desolder the wires at the PCB end. Once the PCB is out, I think you remvoe 4 smore screws to seprate he chassis and CRT from the bezel. Cable tiies are fair came to be cut off :-). But I always keep the oens I've cut off until it's all back together so I rememebr to refit them. Some people take a photograph of the unit to remind them where to put cable ties, clips, etc. Not having a digital camera, I rely on memory. As for the CRT, Ron Smallwood assures us that it's safe without the front faceplate. He is probably right in this case, there is the tension band as well. It's up to you. If you do decide to put something over the front of the CRT, there are basically 2 possibilites. The first is to reuse the original glass faceplate _if you can get it off in one piece_. In this case to get improved safety to have to bond the 2 layers of glass together. It works like a car laminated windscreen. I would think one of the optical adhesives used for cementing compound lenses would be the thing to use, the modern ones cure under UV. You could also fit a separate safety sheiled. This has to be soemthing that won't shatter -- Perspex (Lexan) would be an obvious choice. I rememebr TV sets in the early 1960s (before the introduction of CRTs with laminated screens or tension bands) that had a piece of perspex about 1/8" to 3/16" thick in front of the CRT (Older sets had a sheet of laminated glass for this). Thr disadvantage of doing that is that you'll get multiple reflecitonbs between the CRT screen and the safety shield. It's up to you. If Ron is right, and the only reason for the second glass leyer was to meet a legal requirement rather than to actually make it safer then actually, I see no reason to leave it out. I just hope he _is_ right ... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 3 14:51:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:51:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 3, 12 00:00:04 am Message-ID: > I once looked - briefly - at building an independent TeX > implementation. > > It wasn't really possible. There are pieces of TeX for which existing > documentation, at least at the time (meaning, the TeXBook) was > insufficient. Consider, for example, the "Interwoven alignment But the TeXbook is not all the documetation. It's Volume A of a 5-volume set ('Computers and Typesetting'), the other volumes being B : TeX : The Program (the Woven source of TeX) C : THe MetaFont book (user manual to MetaFont) D : MetaFont : THe Program (the Woven source of MetaFont) E : THe COmputer Modern Typefaces (the font source) I would guess you'd need to read and understnad Volume B as well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 3 14:36:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:36:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? (LEVITY?, APRIL In-Reply-To: <4F7A1690.8030209@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Apr 2, 12 02:13:52 pm Message-ID: > > if there is any postings in this thread which could later be found by > someone unfamiliar with CRT's and they were posted in jest, can someone > tag those threads and postings? > > this is way to serious a subject to have joke material in for someone to > discover in a couple of years and blow up a CRT of any sort. I love a practical joke, I have played quite a few in my time, and I have had plenty played aginst me (if you're going to 'give' you have to 'take' as well). But a practical joke has to be funny for all conceened in the end. The victim may moan at the time, but will end up laughing I hope. If only laughing at himself. For that reason, I do not regard anything that could cause loss or damage to the victims property (the perpetrator's property is another matter :-)), injury or death to be a practical joke. Period. And therefore I will necer jest (not even on 1st April) about things that could be dangerous, like CRTs or high voltages, or that could cause serious damage or loss of data. Of course I can make mistakes in my postings, and I cannont be held legally responsible for anything that happens if you follow my advice. But I can assure you it's all 'in good faith'. There was a jest, cleaerly recognised as such, in at least one service manual years ago. When it came to fitting the yoke to the CRT, the instructions were soemthing like 'Tighten the clamp until the CRT implodes, then back of 1/4 of a turn' :-). > Like joking about observing solar eclipse events on a serious astronomy > thread in the obvious ways. > > Just saying. I am still not sure from what I saw if anyone was joking > around, with things like the hot wire treatment,etc, but I'd never post > that as any approach unless one had their life insurance paid up. There are 2 issuee here, IMHO. One is the dgner to the person doign the repair, the other is the danger to possible future uses of the monitor if the CRT implosion protection is not adequate. It is perfectly possible to use a hot (not very hot, certainly not glowing) wire to cut the adhesive between the 2 layers of the faceplate. It's moderately hazardous, no worse than anything else many of us do. I would not want to do it without googles or better a face shield. nd perhaps the advice in the MG1 technical manual of a 'heavy cnvas apron to proect those other precious parts' is a good idea too. This is very much something you should only attmept if you know what you are doing.It's like working with the mains or using machine tools. Plenty of people do those things and live to tell the tale. Equally, a mistake can be fatal, so you need to know what you are doing and take care. Personally, I'd still want to rebond the faceplate to the CRT, even though, given the tension band, it's probably OK without it. That's an issue of safety to future users. A CRT imploding is not fun, I can assure you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 3 15:07:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 21:07:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 3, 12 02:07:03 pm Message-ID: > > All well and good. One tiny point. I worked for DEC Terminals Product Lin= > e > when those items where in current production.=20 > I could counter that by saying that while you may well hvee designed things that used said CRT, and may have handled the CRTs for many years, this does not mean you know exactly how the CRTs themselves were designed, and whether they remain sade if you remvoe the front glass layer I don't beelvie DEC designed the CRT, they bought it in. I am nto even sure all came from one manufacturer, in which case it may well be that some CRRTs are safe without the outer glass, some are not. _I_ don't know, and I'd rather not be showered in glass fagments to find out. > The tubes were just fine without the face plate and met all implosion > requirements. Some (Green I think) did not have them at all.=20 Interesting. I am suprised there are any differentces between the CRt other than the phosphor. Why was this? Did all colours of CRT come from the same manufacturer? It probably is safe to run the CRT without the outer glass sheet, and I am sure you know what you are doing. > > However certain national safety specifications required the second screen > and its anti splinter layer. This was regardless of if the underlying tub= > e Now tha I can well believe :-). My experience of safety requirements is that there are often hoops you have to jump through for no good reason. How did the green CRTs get roudn this (or were monitors/terminals fitted with said CRTs simply not sold in such countries? > met the implosion spec. The spec was that it was present and its material= > s > met the requirements.=20 > > I think they put them on all the white ones to save having two different > cases. > > I am perhaps a bit over familiar with the way I handle CRT's. However in = I am perhaps too far the other way. My father spend much of his working life working with UHV systems (and to be fair, the forces on the envelopedon't really change that much as the vaccum gets harder...) and had a few things implode. He warned me to take great care... > the > time when I was a student apprentice in the 1960's I did work in a High > Voltage test lab (Anybody for a bit of 500KV?) and the guy I worked for h= > ad > been part of the original EMI television development team in the late 193= > 0'. > Guess who got stuck with mending cranky 1950's TV's with live chassis? Been there, done that... It wasn't so bad on the valve sets with half wave rectificions, with a bit of care you could ensuee the chassis was connected to the neutral side of the mains [1] and thus be relatively safe. The later IC-based sets with bridge rectifiers were worse, whichever way round the plug was connected, the chassis was live. [1] A common way to do this was to use one of those neon tester screwdrivers which would light up if touched on a live chassis. If so, revese the mains conenctions. A _NOT FUNNY_ 'joke' was to convice the newbie that if he took his screwdriver apart and turned the neon round, it would then light on a dead chassis. (Of course it does no such thing, it still lights on a live one). > "Isolation Transformer Rod? What do you want one of those for?" The serivec information for the PSU in one of my Philips machines includes all the waveforms round the chopper circuit. This is a SMPSU with a mains bridge rectifier. The instructions for obvserving these waveforms tell you to use an isolating transformer, or if this is not available to disconenct the maisn warth wirew in the 'scope mains plug. Err, i have this slight objection to a 'scope with a live cabinet :-) > > I passed all of the safety tests. In those days they consisted of still > being alive when you left. Seems reasoanble :-) -tony From sander.reiche at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 15:19:42 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:19:42 +0200 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <201204031649.q33GnsPT091521@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> <201204031649.q33GnsPT091521@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <04614398-A7C5-468C-912E-2A53A6E1B79C@gmail.com> On Apr 3, 2012, at 18:49, John Foust wrote: > At 11:16 AM 4/3/2012, Rob wrote: >> getting to grips with simh, locating images and and working out how to >> install it all etc. A ready-to-roll VM type thing would definitely >> get a download off me, though! Please consider it.. > > > I bit of googling showed a few people on the SimH mailing list > were thinking about a virtual appliance version. I don't know if > they did it. They were talking about a stripped-down Linux. > > So how would we connect a glass terminal or a DECwriter to it? > > - John > Simply serial. It should be possible. I've used a vt420 connected via serial to a h/w port on my PC, to then pass through VirtualBox "into" my OpenBSD vm. Dunno if SimH already does allow this, but it's open source :) If it can grab socket or open a file, opening a device file in linux or bsd shouldn't be that hard. re, Sander From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Apr 3 15:51:11 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 21:51:11 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local> Message-ID: More importantly, how do you turn a Dec Rainbow monitor into a crack pipe? But I digress... I found a HP colorpro plotter at work today, gathering a thick layer of dust. Anyone know how to make it go? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- They view life as a bunch o' unconnected incidents 'n things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice o' coincidence that lays on top o' everything. Give you an example; show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness. -Miller, Repo Man From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 3 16:07:29 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 17:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? (LEVITY?, APRIL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204032107.RAA28640@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There was a jest, cleaerly recognised as such, in at least one > service manual years ago. When it came to fitting the yoke to the > CRT, the instructions were soemthing like 'Tighten the clamp until > the CRT implodes, then back of 1/4 of a turn' :-). Heh. I suppose you could take it as a filter: if you take that instruction seriously, you have no business even taking the cover off the unit. (Unfortunately there's no way to make it actually prevent you from....) > This is very much something you should only attmept if you know what > you are doing. My father used to test lightbulb sockets for liveness by sticking his finger in them to see if he got a tingle between base and side. It is possible to do this safely. It is also possible to kill yourself attempting it. So I would never recommend it; anyone who understands electricity enough to do it safely doesn't need the recommendation, and anyone who doesn't is better off without it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 3 16:41:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 14:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gates Bashing (*sigh* yet again..) Was Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <79B9D1A3-8F58-4F94-AB04-DE97F5710C81@gmail.com> References: <4F7A78D5.40301@telegraphics.com.au> <79B9D1A3-8F58-4F94-AB04-DE97F5710C81@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120403144043.K96958@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > An effect first documented (in detail, and with great glee) > by Andrew Carnegie, notorious tyrant and union buster. billg has made no secret that he has seriously studied Carnegies methods and philosophies. From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 3 17:26:10 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:26:10 -0400 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> On 04/03/2012 04:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> All well and good. One tiny point. I worked for DEC Terminals Product Lin= >> e >> when those items where in current production.=20 >> > I could counter that by saying that while you may well hvee(SP?) designed > things that used said CRT, and may have handled the CRTs for many years, > this does not mean you know exactly how the CRTs themselves were > designed, and whether they remain sade(SP?) if you remvoe(SP?) the front glass layer > > I don't beelvie DEC designed the CRT, they bought it in. I am nto(SP?) even > sure all came from one manufacturer, in which case it may well be that > some CRRTs(SP?) are safe without the outer glass, some are not. _I_ don't > know, and I'd rather not be showered in glass fagments to find out. > > Your belief is not a factor, you didn't work for DEC. Rod and I both worked for DEC, I also worked with the terminals people during the Vt220, VT24x and VT320 series. DEC actually did interact with CRT designers to get the exact product they wanted to DEC specifications. I'm old enough to rember and worked on old tVs that didn't have such a safety layer. It was never an issue. For sport my brothers would take the tubes (CRT) from junkers and haul them out back where they would stand back 20-30 feet and pelt them with rocks. I've observed they can be quite robust fromt he front but quite fragile from the neck side. >> The tubes were just fine without the face plate and met all implosion >> requirements. Some (Green I think) did not have them at all.=20 > Interesting. I am suprised there are any differentces(SP?) between the CRt(case) > other than the phosphor. Why was this? Did all colours of CRT come from > the same manufacturer? > > It probably is safe to run the CRT without the outer glass sheet, and I am > sure you know what you are doing. > It had to do with acceleration voltages and part since the added glass was leaded to meet EU/TUV standards for X-ray radiation. >> However certain national safety specifications required the second screen >> and its anti splinter layer. This was regardless of if the underlying tub= >> e > Now tha I can well believe :-). My experience of safety requirements is > that there are often hoops you have to jump through for no good reason. > How did the green CRTs get roudn this (or were monitors/terminals fitted > with said CRTs simply not sold in such countries? > Since DEC shipped to the major 13 markets they had to meet all their standards. Not all made sense to us here in the USA but you do this to sell things. Some countries mandated specific eronomics and therefore allowable colors, brightness, contrast and many more things. Often a cable that was correct in 10 of the 13 majors was disallowed because of the cordage or colors used didn't meet the local rule. Ignoring the wall mains connector the cable itself was a often 13 differnt cords because of internal construction. So cables it was easy to be destination specific but for a thing that was used/manufacured in great quantity the standardized design was the rule. DEC even had internal standard for designing for international sale and it required all products (with exceptions) to meet internationalization requirements. >> met the implosion spec. The spec was that it was present and its material= >> s >> met the requirements.=20 >> >> I think they put them on all the white ones to save having two different >> cases. >> >> I am perhaps a bit over familiar with the way I handle CRT's. However in = > I am perhaps too far the other way. My father spend much of his working > life working with UHV systems (and to be fair, the forces on the > envelopedon't really change that much as the vaccum gets harder...) and > had a few things implode. He warned me to take great care... > >> the >> time when I was a student apprentice in the 1960's I did work in a High >> Voltage test lab (Anybody for a bit of 500KV?) and the guy I worked for h= >> ad >> been part of the original EMI television development team in the late 193= >> 0'. >> Guess who got stuck with mending cranky 1950's TV's with live chassis? > Been there, done that... It wasn't so bad on the valve sets with half > wave rectificions, with a bit of care you could ensuee(SP?) the chassis was > connected to the neutral side of the mains [1] and thus be relatively > safe. The later IC-based sets with bridge rectifiers were worse, > whichever way round the plug was connected, the chassis was live. > > [1] A common way to do this was to use one of those neon tester > screwdrivers which would light up if touched on a live chassis. If so, > revese the mains conenctions. A _NOT FUNNY_ 'joke' was to convice the > newbie that if he took his screwdriver apart and turned the neon round, > it would then light on a dead chassis. (Of course it does no such thing, > it still lights on a live one). > Still dangerous as the mains line can still be intercepted. You do learn to behave well to live long. >> "Isolation Transformer Rod? What do you want one of those for?" > The serivec(SP?) information for the PSU in one of my Philips machines > includes all the waveforms round the chopper circuit. This is a SMPSU > with a mains bridge rectifier. The instructions for obvserving these > waveforms tell you to use an isolating transformer, or if this is not > available to disconenct(SP?) the maisn(SP?) warth(SP?) wirew(SP?) in the 'scope mains plug. > Err, i have this slight objection to a 'scope with a live cabinet :-) Back inthe day things were not always safe or smart, then again the people working with it often were smarter. However, libility being what it is and various govenments decreeing safety standards allowed both stupider people to survive and to protect the unwary. I alwas felt that anything mains powered without isolation was designed to kill anyone trying to repair them. Sort of the first generation "No User Serviceable Components Inside". Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 3 17:39:10 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 16:39:10 -0600 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F7B7C0E.2080907@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/3/2012 4:26 PM, allison wrote: > I alwas felt that anything mains powered without isolation was designed to > kill anyone trying to repair them. Sort of the first generation > "No User Serviceable Components Inside". > Come to think of I never have repaired a Component, I just buy a new one and solder it in. > Allison > Ben. From slandon at centurylink.net Tue Apr 3 17:47:26 2012 From: slandon at centurylink.net (Steven Landon) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:47:26 -0400 Subject: Free HUGE LOT of TRS-80 Documentation & Magazines Message-ID: <4F7B7DFE.9040004@centurylink.net> Im making this big carload of TRS-80 magazines/owners manuals free to someone who will take the time, scan it and put it online. Its free for pickup at my home in Flushing MI From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 3 17:48:00 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:48:00 -0400 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B7C0E.2080907@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> <4F7B7C0E.2080907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F7B7E20.1070405@verizon.net> > On 4/3/2012 4:26 PM, allison wrote: > >> I alwas felt that anything mains powered without isolation was >> designed to >> kill anyone trying to repair them. Sort of the first generation >> "No User Serviceable Components Inside". >> > > Come to think of I never have repaired a Component, I just buy a new > one and solder it in. > >> Allison >> > Ben. > Gasp! You've never ground the top off a dead DS1287 TOY clock chip to replace the failed lithium cell?? They were the famous CMOS clock/ram chips with the 10+year life tha usually failed around years 4 to 6 and were unobtainium due to the high failure rates depleteing stocks. That suggests a sheltered life! ;) Allison > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 3 18:00:25 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 17:00:25 -0600 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B7E20.1070405@verizon.net> References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> <4F7B7C0E.2080907@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F7B7E20.1070405@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F7B8109.3090503@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/3/2012 4:48 PM, allison wrote: > They were the famous CMOS clock/ram chips with the 10+year life tha usually > failed around years 4 to 6 and were unobtainium due to the high failure > rates > depleteing stocks. > > That suggests a sheltered life! ;) No, I never had a computer last more than 4 to 5 years. > Allison > Ben. From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 3 18:30:18 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 19:30:18 -0400 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B8109.3090503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> <4F7B7C0E.2080907@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F7B7E20.1070405@verizon.net> <4F7B8109.3090503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F7B880A.2030504@verizon.net> > On 4/3/2012 4:48 PM, allison wrote: > >> They were the famous CMOS clock/ram chips with the 10+year life tha >> usually >> failed around years 4 to 6 and were unobtainium due to the high failure >> rates >> depleteing stocks. >> >> That suggests a sheltered life! ;) > > No, I never had a computer last more than 4 to 5 years. > All my classic gear is older than that! Some even have that &*(! chip. They were most common in PCs more than 12 years ago. Allison > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 3 18:31:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 19:31:52 -0400 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B8109.3090503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> <4F7B7C0E.2080907@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F7B7E20.1070405@verizon.net> <4F7B8109.3090503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F7B8868.6000001@neurotica.com> On 04/03/2012 07:00 PM, ben wrote: >> They were the famous CMOS clock/ram chips with the 10+year life tha >> usually >> failed around years 4 to 6 and were unobtainium due to the high failure >> rates >> depleteing stocks. >> >> That suggests a sheltered life! ;) > > No, I never had a computer last more than 4 to 5 years. Wow. PCs I assume? I'd never put up with that crap. I want an in-box upgrade path and some longevity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 3 19:08:39 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 20:08:39 -0400 Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7B9107.6080908@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/04/12 3:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> TeX is one of those systems (like Perl, etc) which has one >> implementation. Can you _imagine_ the task of building a TeX-compatible >> compiler whose compliance test were typesetting the TeXbook... :-X > > I beleive there _are_ a set of compliance tests for a TeX implementation, > point being that all 'TeXs' have to split lines, etc in exactly the same > way under all conmditions. This means handling round errors correctly and > things like that. That applies to TeX *ports*. And there is a torture test to pass. --T > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 3 19:12:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 20:12:54 -0400 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: , <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com>, <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de>, <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net>, <79DF0181-988F-4BBC-AC94-3D776DE6B463@gmail.com>, <4F7B133E.7080504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F7B9206.5070502@neurotica.com> On 04/03/2012 11:25 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > set it up then when it's ready, remove any licenses,make the image and then distribute that,along with instructions on how to add your own license. > it could even auto-start tcp/ip, do the bridging and stuff for novices. > it wouldn't be that hard or is there still a legalities issue with distributing the image itself? There are likely legal issues with distributing the complete disk image; I'm honestly not sure. I'm certainly not going to make such things available for public download. I appreciate the VMS hobbyist license program and will not do anything to jeopardize it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 3 19:14:52 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 17:14:52 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <4F7B927C.4000802@brouhaha.com> John Many Jars wrote: > But I digress... I found a HP colorpro plotter at work today, > gathering a thick layer of dust. > > Anyone know how to make it go? Strap a rocket to it? From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 3 19:20:30 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 00:20:30 +0000 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <04614398-A7C5-468C-912E-2A53A6E1B79C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/3/12 1:19 PM, "Sander Reiche" wrote: >On Apr 3, 2012, at 18:49, John Foust wrote: > >> At 11:16 AM 4/3/2012, Rob wrote: >>> getting to grips with simh, locating images and and working out how to >>> install it all etc. A ready-to-roll VM type thing would definitely >>> get a download off me, though! Please consider it.. >> >> >> I bit of googling showed a few people on the SimH mailing list >> were thinking about a virtual appliance version. I don't know if >> they did it. They were talking about a stripped-down Linux. >> >> So how would we connect a glass terminal or a DECwriter to it? >> >> - John >> >Simply serial. It should be possible. I've used a vt420 connected via >serial to a h/w port on my PC, to then pass through VirtualBox "into" my >OpenBSD vm. Dunno if SimH already does allow this, but it's open source >:) If it can grab socket or open a file, opening a device file in linux >or bsd shouldn't be that hard. > >re, > >Sander > > SIMH allows one to connect a virtual serial line unit to a telnet port. That's about it - it doesn't connect to a physical serial port. To do what you want to do, you might need a terminal server. -- Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 19:24:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:24:38 -0400 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <4F7B133E.7080504@neurotica.com> References: <4F7A68EF.70007@pico-systems.com> <4F7A72A5.1020803@neurotica.com> <20120403070254.GA62459@beast.freibergnet.de> <201204031222.q33CLuEw081689@billy.ezwind.net> <79DF0181-988F-4BBC-AC94-3D776DE6B463@gmail.com> <4F7B133E.7080504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2012, at 11:11 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/03/2012 08:49 AM, David Riley wrote: > >> Having recently gone through >> the process of building VMS from scratch (with copious help from an >> online tutorial from Hoffman Labs), it's non-trivial for the uninitiated > > Oh c'mon, it's not that tough. ;) I stress the "uninitiated" part. If you haven't gone through it, it's a bit daunting. I'm sure the config options for the Linux kernel are similarly daunting for those who haven't done a million before, but I can do a menuconfig nearly in my sleep at this point. >> (plus you need to get install media from somewhere, which took me >> about a month from Montagar). > > I wish I'd known you needed it! :-/ Ah, well. It was worth the wait, anyway. The licenses from the VMS hobbyist organization sure come through fast, though. I still need to get a PL/I license from Kednos, but that's due to lack of action on my part rather than theirs. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 3 19:43:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 17:43:32 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B927C.4000802@brouhaha.com> References: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local>, , <4F7B927C.4000802@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F7B36C4.30201.1EBEE92@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Apr 2012 at 17:14, Eric Smith wrote: > Strap a rocket to it? Well, you're more ambitious than I. I was going to suggest strapping it to a skateboard and releasing it at a skateboard park. Shows my lack of imagination. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 3 22:35:39 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 03:35:39 +0000 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/3/12 5:24 PM, "David Riley" wrote: >On Apr 3, 2012, at 11:11 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 04/03/2012 08:49 AM, David Riley wrote: >> >>> Having recently gone through >>> the process of building VMS from scratch (with copious help from an >>> online tutorial from Hoffman Labs), it's non-trivial for the >>>uninitiated >> >> Oh c'mon, it's not that tough. ;) > >I stress the "uninitiated" part. If you haven't gone through it, >it's a bit daunting. I'm sure the config options for the Linux >kernel are similarly daunting for those who haven't done a million >before, but I can do a menuconfig nearly in my sleep at this point. > >>> (plus you need to get install media from somewhere, which took me >>> about a month from Montagar). >> >> I wish I'd known you needed it! :-/ > >Ah, well. It was worth the wait, anyway. The licenses from the >VMS hobbyist organization sure come through fast, though. I still >need to get a PL/I license from Kednos, but that's due to lack of >action on my part rather than theirs. The Kednos folks are great. We have PL/I on the VAX-11/780-5 at LCM, and I've bruised my brain on it. -- Ian From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 3 16:09:46 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 14:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <1333321703.21424.yint-ygo-j2me@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 1, 12 04:08:23 pm Message-ID: <1333487386.80605.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > not going to be an issue in my case. Still cant get it open...if by > screws the poster meant the hexagonal lugs or whatever in back then i > guess its april 1 after all... I can assure you I do not post misleading techncial information at any time. Or at least not delibarately misleading information (I obviosuly make mistakes). C: I don't think I was even responding to you matey. [FWIW, in England, April Fool's Day ends at noon. If you play a joke after that time, the joke is on you.] C: So how do I know if the poster knew what time zone I was in, or the local customs? April Fool's "Day" in reality is 48 hours - 1 second long if you want to stretch the definition. But back to the monitor. It sounds like you're remvoig nthe 2 little hexagonal jackposts on the DA15 connector. No, those are not what I mean. You don't have to remove those. Near that connector, between it and the 2 thumbwheel controls I think, there's a plastic dome about 5/8" across. Prise that off (Pry it off, I guess). Under it is a Phillips head screw. Take thoat one out, then the cover will side off. C: Got it off. Still not sure how to gain full access to the tube front. Either remove the screws w/a long skinny phillips. Or cut those tie wraps...and go from there? From randall.kindig at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 18:35:22 2012 From: randall.kindig at gmail.com (Randy Kindig) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 19:35:22 -0400 Subject: Free HUGE LOT of TRS-80 Documentation & Magazines In-Reply-To: <4F7B7DFE.9040004@centurylink.net> References: <4F7B7DFE.9040004@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <73C20B07-81C4-473C-9A4B-28C06DADBF8F@gmail.com> Boy I would love to but unfortunately it's too far for me to pick up Randy Sent from my iPhone On Apr 3, 2012, at 6:47 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > Im making this big carload of TRS-80 magazines/owners manuals free to someone who will take the time, scan it and put it online. > > Its free for pickup at my home in Flushing MI > From arkaxow at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 01:03:31 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 02:03:31 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks Message-ID: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> Hello All, I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. Has anyone done this ? From what I gather you just get the board and you can get the floppy cable and a power supply and power cord. But you need to buy a HD PC floppy drive and then can read the Commodore disks. That is Commodore 1541 disks. Does this sound right ? Jeffrey Brace From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Apr 4 02:31:45 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 09:31:45 +0200 Subject: Free HUGE LOT of TRS-80 Documentation & Magazines In-Reply-To: <73C20B07-81C4-473C-9A4B-28C06DADBF8F@gmail.com> References: <4F7B7DFE.9040004@centurylink.net> <73C20B07-81C4-473C-9A4B-28C06DADBF8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120404073145.GA66220@beast.freibergnet.de> Randy Kindig wrote: > Boy I would love to but unfortunately it's too far for me to pick up > > Randy > > Sent from my iPhone > ...so what do you want to tell us? Sent from my freezer Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 4 03:40:01 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 09:40:01 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B36C4.30201.1EBEE92@cclist.sydex.com> References: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local> <4F7B927C.4000802@brouhaha.com> <4F7B36C4.30201.1EBEE92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Apr 2012 at 17:14, Eric Smith wrote: > > >> Strap a rocket to it? > > Well, you're more ambitious than I. ?I was going to suggest strapping > it to a skateboard and releasing it at a skateboard park. > > Shows my lack of imagination. Well, there is a skateboard park around here. . . I don't think even several model rocket engines would lift it. If I still lived in Arizona, a shotgun might be appropriate. Thanks for the advice! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- They view life as a bunch o' unconnected incidents 'n things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice o' coincidence that lays on top o' everything. Give you an example; show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness. -Miller, Repo Man From ttmrichter at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 05:17:40 2012 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 18:17:40 +0800 Subject: Gates Bashing (*sigh* yet again..) Was Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: <20120403144043.K96958@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F7A78D5.40301@telegraphics.com.au> <79B9D1A3-8F58-4F94-AB04-DE97F5710C81@gmail.com> <20120403144043.K96958@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: OK, this shit is infecting even the "on-topic" list. G'bye. On 4 April 2012 05:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > > An effect first documented (in detail, and with great glee) > > by Andrew Carnegie, notorious tyrant and union buster. > > billg has made no secret that he has seriously studied Carnegies methods > and philosophies. > > > > -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. From sander.reiche at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 08:10:59 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:10:59 +0200 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: <04614398-A7C5-468C-912E-2A53A6E1B79C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Ian King wrote: > > SIMH allows one to connect a virtual serial line unit to a telnet port. > That's about it - it doesn't connect to a physical serial port. ?To do > what you want to do, you might need a terminal server. ?-- Ian I couldn't let this pass ;) http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/layercake.html -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 08:12:57 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 06:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <1333545177.58360.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/4/12, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write > Commodore disks. Has anyone done this ? From what I gather > you just get the board and you can get the floppy cable and > a power supply and power cord. But you need to buy a HD PC > floppy drive and then can read the Commodore disks. That is > Commodore 1541 disks. Does this sound right ? You don't want to use a PC HD drive, Commodore disks are 40 track (OK, well, 35 track, but still), the narrower head of the 80 track PC drive will cause problems if you want to write. If you just want to read and write Commodore 1541 disks, why not use a Commodore 1541 drive and a simple cable to connect it to the PC's parallel port, and run Star Commander? Or, Jim Brain's ZoomFloppy connects a Commodore 1541 drive to USB, if you want to go that route. I think either method would be more suitable for Commodore disks. -Ian From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 4 08:19:12 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 06:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> from Jeffrey Brace at "Apr 4, 12 02:03:31 am" Message-ID: <201204041319.q34DJCNC11010282@floodgap.com> > I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. Why not get a xum1541-style device like a ZoomFloppy? Open source hardware and software, works great with Mac, Windows and Linux (I ported opencbm to PowerPC and happily image .d64s from a 1571 and my G5). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why is it you can only trust short, dumpy spies? -- Hogan, "Hogan's Heroes" From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 4 08:37:05 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:37:05 +0200 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: <04614398-A7C5-468C-912E-2A53A6E1B79C@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Ian King wrote: >> >> SIMH allows one to connect a virtual serial line unit to a telnet port. >> That's about it - it doesn't connect to a physical serial port. ?To do >> what you want to do, you might need a terminal server. ?-- Ian > > I couldn't let this pass ;) > http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/layercake.html > > -- > ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, > ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr > > Or..... use my modified SIMH code to address physical ports (some exceptions exists). Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Apr 4 08:56:21 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 09:56:21 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: An HD PC floppy drive will *NOT* read commodore 1541 disks.not a chance in hell. PC drives are MFM, commodore are not. totally incompatible. as others have mentioned, Jim Brains ZoomFloppy really is the best solution,there's nibtools to read the disks.even protected disks will work > From: arkaxow at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks > Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 02:03:31 -0400 > > Hello All, > > I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. Has anyone done this ? From what I gather you just get the board and you can get the floppy cable and a power supply and power cord. But you need to buy a HD PC floppy drive and then can read the Commodore disks. That is Commodore 1541 disks. Does this sound right ? > > Jeffrey Brace From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 4 09:00:05 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 10:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Apr 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > An HD PC floppy drive will *NOT* read commodore 1541 disks.not a chance in hell. > PC drives are MFM, commodore are not. totally incompatible. The controller won't read 1541 disks, but the drive will if you use something like the Catweasel MK4+. I've archived 1541 disks in D64 format with a MK4+ and a bog-standard 360KB drive. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 09:09:34 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 10:09:34 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: On Apr 4, 2012, at 9:56 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > An HD PC floppy drive will *NOT* read commodore 1541 disks.not a chance in hell. > PC drives are MFM, commodore are not. totally incompatible. Well, the *drive* will, because it just sends the raw signals out its connector. A PC floppy *controller* will not handle the data encoding, but that doesn't have a lot to do with the drive itself. You can read GCR-encoded Mac 400/800k disks with a PC floppy drive and an appropriate controller, too. Products like KryoFlux, DiskFerret and the like are designed to do just that and more. Writing is a different matter, because the narrower gap on an HD head won't necessarily make a big enough flux transition for the lower-density heads to pick up reliably. The data format isn't the problem there, it's signal levels and magnetic domain sizes. - Dave From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Apr 4 09:15:28 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 10:15:28 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew>, , Message-ID: so that's not a regular drive in a PC as the poster was probably indicating. this whole thread was looking at KryoFlux. I know catweasel can work, but I'm not so sure it works very well with protected disks. I've heard of people using catweasel with 1541 drives, mounted in their PC's also. but there's no way you're going to get a cleaner, more compatible interface than zoomfloppyand a real 1541... > Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 10:00:05 -0400 > From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks > > On Wed, 4 Apr 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > An HD PC floppy drive will *NOT* read commodore 1541 disks.not a chance in hell. > > PC drives are MFM, commodore are not. totally incompatible. > > The controller won't read 1541 disks, but the drive will if you use > something like the Catweasel MK4+. I've archived 1541 disks in D64 format > with a MK4+ and a bog-standard 360KB drive. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Apr 4 09:19:30 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 10:19:30 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew>, , Message-ID: those are very different from commodore disks,someone already mentioned commodore have up to 40 tracks,what about half-tracks, and copy-protected disks? will they read v-max disks?commodore software got heavily into copy protection,like rapidlok, and worse in the later days I think if you did a feature by feature comparisoncatweasel vs Diskferret vs KryoFlux vs Zoomfloppythe winner would be obvious. Dan. > Subject: Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks > From: fraveydank at gmail.com > Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 10:09:34 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Apr 4, 2012, at 9:56 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > > An HD PC floppy drive will *NOT* read commodore 1541 disks.not a chance in hell. > > PC drives are MFM, commodore are not. totally incompatible. > > Well, the *drive* will, because it just sends the raw signals out > its connector. A PC floppy *controller* will not handle the data > encoding, but that doesn't have a lot to do with the drive itself. > You can read GCR-encoded Mac 400/800k disks with a PC floppy drive > and an appropriate controller, too. Products like KryoFlux, > DiskFerret and the like are designed to do just that and more. > > Writing is a different matter, because the narrower gap on an HD > head won't necessarily make a big enough flux transition for the > lower-density heads to pick up reliably. The data format isn't > the problem there, it's signal levels and magnetic domain sizes. > > > - Dave > > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 4 10:05:04 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:05:04 +0000 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/4/12 6:10 AM, "Sander Reiche" wrote: >On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Ian King wrote: >> >> SIMH allows one to connect a virtual serial line unit to a telnet port. >> That's about it - it doesn't connect to a physical serial port. To do >> what you want to do, you might need a terminal server. -- Ian > >I couldn't let this pass ;) >http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/layercake.html Very good! I had seen similar code in a Python cookbook a while back - my mention of 'terminal server' was not intended to preclude this sort of software solution. Cheers -- Ian From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Apr 4 10:15:28 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 11:15:28 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew>, , Message-ID: <4F7C6590.1040005@verizon.net> for those of us who arent that familiar with all the mentioned products,which obvious winner would it be? Keith. On 4/4/2012 10:19 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > those are very different from commodore disks,someone already mentioned commodore have up to 40 tracks,what about half-tracks, and copy-protected disks? > will they read v-max disks?commodore software got heavily into copy protection,like rapidlok, and worse in the later days > I think if you did a feature by feature comparisoncatweasel vs Diskferret vs KryoFlux vs Zoomfloppythe winner would be obvious. > Dan. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 10:21:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:21:55 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <4F7C6590.1040005@verizon.net> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> <4F7C6590.1040005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <92F7CDEA-0896-46AD-93C1-6BCBB7066649@gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2012, at 11:15, Keith Monahan wrote: > > for those of us who arent that familiar with all the mentioned products,which obvious winner would it be? Rather subjective, I think. :-) But ZoomFloppy is specifically meant for CBM disks. If you don't need a generic solution, it's probably best. - Dave (sorry for long lines, phone) From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Apr 4 10:25:44 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:25:44 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <4F7C6590.1040005@verizon.net> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew>, , , , , , <4F7C6590.1040005@verizon.net> Message-ID: I'd say zoomfloppy, simply because of nibtools, which is the most feature-rich for commodore disks I've found.especially where copy-protection is involved. And, the fact it can write images back to disk gives it a distinct advantage. this is only for commodore style disks, other platforms would have their preferred tool(s). Dan. > Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:15:28 -0400 > From: keithvz at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks > > > for those of us who arent that familiar with all the mentioned > products,which obvious winner would it be? > Keith. > > On 4/4/2012 10:19 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > those are very different from commodore disks,someone already mentioned commodore have up to 40 tracks,what about half-tracks, and copy-protected disks? > > will they read v-max disks?commodore software got heavily into copy protection,like rapidlok, and worse in the later days > > I think if you did a feature by feature comparisoncatweasel vs Diskferret vs KryoFlux vs Zoomfloppythe winner would be obvious. > > Dan. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 4 12:34:03 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 12:34:03 -0500 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7C860B.2020007@pico-systems.com> > From: Dave McGuire > > > > Well, I just timed it: Clean slate to running VMS system with a tape > image mounted on an emulated drive, under simh. 26 minutes. > That's because you know what you are doing. > But suit yourself. ;) > > >>> I don't know your level of expertise with VMS or simh, so please don't >>> take this the wrong way, but...if you want to do that and would like >>> some help, I'd be happy to help you out. I can put together a "canned" >>> simh VMS installation for something like this in a very short time. >>> >>> >> I got simh to teach my kids some machine language programming on the >> PDP-11. >> (We had a class last Sunday.) >> > > Nice!! How old are they? (if you don't mind my asking, I am just > curious) > Range from 12 to 22. > > Sweet!! > > Yeah, back in 1986 or so, this was a totally awesome system! Fooling around with these tape images on disk shows me (again) how far computers have come. I can scan a 30 MB file in a fraction of a second! I'm sure that would have taken 10 minutes or so on the KA-630. > Jon Elson wrote : >> If all else fails, I suppose I could go that way, but this vmsbackup >> program >> seems to try to work, it probably needs a little tweak. It detects the >> 80 byte >> header records and stops. All the VMS Backup tapes I've checked so far >> have two 80 byte headers, this program seems to want one 256-byte header. >> > > That doesn't sound too tough to deal with. Good luck! > I've finally established contact with the last guy who worked on the vmsbackup program, he suggested removing the offending tape headers with xxd, but if you cut the top lines off the file, it uses the address column on the left and you end up with zeros in their place. Anybody know a way to edit a tape container file to remove a few tape blocks from the beginning? I know I could write a program that does this exactly, and my just do so tonight. Basically, it would extract the backup files verbatim from the tape image. Jon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 12:40:49 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:40:49 -0400 Subject: Reading VMS backup tapes In-Reply-To: <4F7C860B.2020007@pico-systems.com> References: <4F7C860B.2020007@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Anybody know a way to edit a tape container file to remove a few > tape blocks from the beginning? I would use 'dd' for this (the 'bs', 'count', and 'skip' args are quite handy for fixed-length-record-level filtering) -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 4 12:53:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 18:53:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: from "John Many Jars" at Apr 3, 12 09:51:11 pm Message-ID: > > More importantly, how do you turn a Dec Rainbow monitor into a crack pipe= > ? With a glassblowing torch? > > But I digress... I found a HP colorpro plotter at work today, > gathering a thick layer of dust. > > Anyone know how to make it go? Is this an HP7440? What interface does it have (I think both RS232 and HPIB models were made)? You can probably find manuals to download at http://www.hpmuseum.net/ those should tell you the command set (which is, not suprisingly, HPGL) and how to configure it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 4 12:58:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 18:58:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? (LEVITY?, APRIL In-Reply-To: <201204032107.RAA28640@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 3, 12 05:07:29 pm Message-ID: > > > There was a jest, cleaerly recognised as such, in at least one > > service manual years ago. When it came to fitting the yoke to the > > CRT, the instructions were soemthing like 'Tighten the clamp until > > the CRT implodes, then back of 1/4 of a turn' :-). > > Heh. I suppose you could take it as a filter: if you take that > instruction seriously, you have no business even taking the cover off I am inclined to agree :-) > the unit. (Unfortunately there's no way to make it actually prevent > you from....) Thankfully... The last think I (or anyone else here) needs are manufacturers thginking they should eb able to stop us repairing things. A lot of the repairs I, and others, do are certainly not going to be approved by the origianl manufacturer (they're not dangerous, or unrelaible, I might add...) > > > This is very much something you should only attmept if you know what > > you are doing. > > My father used to test lightbulb sockets for liveness by sticking his > finger in them to see if he got a tingle between base and side. Not wishing to start a 'my fatehr is better than your father' war, but my father used to take a swig of liquid air, spit out the nitrogen (which boils off first) and then breath oxygen over a lit cigarette... DO NOT TRY THIS UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING! > > It is possible to do this safely. It is also possible to kill yourself > attempting it. So I would never recommend it; anyone who understands > electricity enough to do it safely doesn't need the recommendation, and > anyone who doesn't is better off without it. Agreed. People who have been 'in the game' for some time know safe ways to do thigns that could be lethal if done wronging. It is a bad idea to teach such tricks IMHO, you have to discover them for yourself. Only that way will you know how ot do them safely under all conditions, becuase you really understnad what you are doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 4 13:01:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:01:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <1333487386.80605.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 3, 12 02:09:46 pm Message-ID: > > > not going to be an issue in my case. Still cant get it open...if by > > screws the poster meant the hexagonal lugs or whatever in back then i > > guess its april 1 after all... > > I can assure you I do not post misleading techncial information at any > time. Or at least not delibarately misleading information (I obviosuly > make mistakes). > > C: I don't think I was even responding to you matey. > I neve said you were. I was just clarifying my position on sucvh things. > [FWIW, in England, April Fool's Day ends at noon. If you play a joke > after that time, the joke is on you.] > > C: So how do I know if the poster knew what time zone I was in, or the local customs? April Fool's "Day" in reality is 48 hours - 1 second long if you want to stretch the definition. You don't. But you know I am in England, so you can assume _I_ was in the BST time zone. And I posted it in what, for me, was early evening. And I think that;'s the time zoen that would matter here. > C: Got it off. Still not sure how to gain full access to the tube > front. Either remove the screws w/a long skinny phillips. Or cut those > tie wraps...and go from there? > AS I said last night, remvoe the cable ties, take the PCB out first. I don't remember any particualr difficulties in dismantling this thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 4 13:28:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:28:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> from "allison" at Apr 3, 12 06:26:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/03/2012 04:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> All well and good. One tiny point. I worked for DEC Terminals Product Lin= > >> e > >> when those items where in current production.=20 > >> > > I could counter that by saying that while you may well hvee(SP?) designed > > things that used said CRT, and may have handled the CRTs for many years, > > this does not mean you know exactly how the CRTs themselves were > > designed, and whether they remain sade(SP?) if you remvoe(SP?) the front glass layer > > > > I don't beelvie DEC designed the CRT, they bought it in. I am nto(SP?) even > > sure all came from one manufacturer, in which case it may well be that > > some CRRTs(SP?) are safe without the outer glass, some are not. _I_ don't > > know, and I'd rather not be showered in glass fagments to find out. > > > > > > Your belief is not a factor, you didn't work for DEC. > What the heck has that got to do with anything... I stopped accepting the 'This is right because I say so' sort of arguemtn when I was abotu 3 years old, and I have no intention of acceting it now. It's very likely you and Ron are right, but, to quote the text over the doorway of Kirkaldy's works in Southwark : 'Facts, not Opinions'. > Rod and I both worked for DEC, I also worked with the terminals people > during the Vt220, VT24x and VT320 series. DEC actually did interact > with CRT designers to get the exact product they wanted to DEC > specifications. I am scpetical. If only because the CRTs in every DEC terminal I've been inside has been a standard part with a normal type number. Also, no manufacturer uses custom parts if they can avoid it. An of-the-shelf part is cheaper and supply is more certain. And there is absolutelly nothign odd about the dispaly circuitry in any VT series terminal, or the performance requireds (resolution, etc) to require a custom-made CRT It's very likely DEC talked ot the CRT manufacturers, of course. But mainly yo determine whcih CRT(s) would be suitable. Anotehr thing, even if the CRT was custom-designed, I doubt very much the requirment would have included 'Must be implosion-saft if soem hacker removes the outer glass layer'. It would me much more likely to state something like 'The CRT must have integral implosion protection to ) and the manufactuer decides how to comply with that. Given that, any modication to the CRT could invalidate it. > I'm old enough to rember and worked on old tVs that didn't have such > a safety layer. It was never an issue. For sport my brothers would As am I... FWIW, though, no TV set sold to the public in the UK ever had a CRT pointing at the viewer without some kind of implosion protection. The earlists sets (pre-wr) mounted the CRT vertically wit hthe screen on top, the picture was viewed in a mirror. If the CRT imploded, the gass spreyed upwards. Later sets with the CRT conventionally mounted had a laminated glas or (later) perspex sheild in front of the CRT. THen came tension bands and laminated faceplate CRTs. Now, safety was takne a lot less seriously back then, but they thougt this was enough of a danger for it to be necessary to do something about it. And CRT implosion was, and is, not common. > take the > tubes (CRT) from junkers and haul them out back where they would > stand back 20-30 feet and pelt them with rocks. I've observed they > can be quite robust fromt he (SPELL!) front but quite fragile from the > neck side. Sure, the scree nad flare are thick glass, they have to be to withstand atmospheric pressure. It's darn hard to break them. But that is not the point. We are not only worried about somebody hitting the screen. The other daner is stresses in the glasss causing it to fracture spontaneously. And that does happen (I have met a TV engineer who had a CRT crack across the screen one day for no apparent reason). That's the big problem it can happen without warning. > > >> The tubes were just fine without the face plate and met all implosion > >> requirements. Some (Green I think) did not have them at all.=20 > > Interesting. I am suprised there are any differentces(SP?) between the CRt(case) > > other than the phosphor. Why was this? Did all colours of CRT come from > > the same manufacturer? > > > > It probably is safe to run the CRT without the outer glass sheet, and I am > > sure you know what you are doing. > > > It had to do with acceleration voltages and part since the added glass was > leaded to meet EU/TUV standards for X-ray radiation. How coue this didn't applit to the green CRT then? > > [1] A common way to do this was to use one of those neon tester > > screwdrivers which would light up if touched on a live chassis. If so, > > revese the mains conenctions. A _NOT FUNNY_ 'joke' was to convice the > > newbie that if he took his screwdriver apart and turned the neon round, > > it would then light on a dead chassis. (Of course it does no such thing, > > it still lights on a live one). > > > > Still dangerous as the mains line can still be intercepted. You do > learn to behave well > to live long. Sure, I over-simplified it. What you really do is : Check the mains tester on a known-live point. Check the chassis is daed, but is receiving power, and/or the tester lights on the live feed to the chassis, say on the dropping resistor. Check the mains tester on a live point _again_ And then brush the chassi with the back of you fingers to check it's not live. That wway you're thrown off if it is.. > I alwas felt that anything mains powered without isolation was designed to > kill anyone trying to repair them. Sort of the first generation > "No User Serviceable Components Inside". Hmmm.. Although at least over here j-random-public would pull off the back and swap valves... To be honest, I don't mucu care for non-isolated TVs and radios. I much prefer a nice mains transformer and parallel heaters. But I can see the economics of it.. And if you repair old comptuers you are goign to come up against an SMPU sometime. And in many (but not all) of those there will eb considerable non-isolated circuitry. So you have to know how to work on it safely. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 4 13:30:53 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:30:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B7C0E.2080907@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Apr 3, 12 04:39:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/3/2012 4:26 PM, allison wrote: > > > I alwas felt that anything mains powered without isolation was designed to > > kill anyone trying to repair them. Sort of the first generation > > "No User Serviceable Components Inside". > > > > Come to think of I never have repaired a Component, I just buy a new > one and solder it in. That depends on the defintion of 'component'. If it's what's commonly called a 'FRU', then I've certainly reparied them... I've also repaired what are more often classed as components. Rewound motors, inductors, transformers, rtc. Repaired switch contacts and operating mechansisms. Rebuilt varaible capacitors. Even once repaired a light bulb. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 4 13:32:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:32:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B8109.3090503@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Apr 3, 12 05:00:25 pm Message-ID: > > No, I never had a computer last more than 4 to 5 years. Hang on, this _is_ classiccmp, isn't it??? I've got machines that are over 40 years old still operational. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 14:24:17 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:24:17 -0400 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B7E20.1070405@verizon.net> References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> <4F7B7C0E.2080907@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F7B7E20.1070405@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:48 PM, allison wrote: > Gasp! ?You've never ground the top off a dead DS1287 TOY clock chip to > replace the failed lithium cell?? I have done that (and on a Mostek MKT02 too). I've also replaced the DS1287 with a DS12887. That works if the BIOS can handle it (not guaranteed). -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 4 14:59:57 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 12:59:57 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local> <4F7B927C.4000802@brouhaha.com> <4F7B36C4.30201.1EBEE92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F7CA83D.3060007@brouhaha.com> John Many Jars wrote: > I don't think even several model rocket engines would lift it. Who said anything about "model" rocket engines? :-) On a more serious note, it used to be that Windows actually had drivers for HPGL plotters. I haven't checked in a long time, but I doubt that recent versions of Windows still have that. I'd expect that some CAD packages can probably still speak HPGL. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 4 15:06:21 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 13:06:21 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <4F7CA9BD.7080101@brouhaha.com> Jeffrey Brace wrote: >> I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. Has anyone done this ? From what I gather you just get the board and you can get the floppy cable and a power supply and power cord. But you need to buy a HD PC floppy drive and then can read the Commodore disks. That is Commodore 1541 disks. Does this sound right ? Dan Gahlinger wrote: > An HD PC floppy drive will *NOT* read commodore 1541 disks.not a chance in hell. Sure it will. I've done it successfully on multiple occasions. > PC drives are MFM, commodore are not. totally incompatible. The drive doesn't know MFM from FM, M2FM, GCR, or many other encodings that could exist on a diskette. Only the controller in the PC is limited to MFM and FM, and there are even ways around that; people have successfully read Apple II floppies with the PC controller. Unfortunately he trick used for that won't work for Commodore disks. However, Jeffrey was talking about hooking up the drive to a KyroFlux, not to a PC controller. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 4 15:09:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 16:09:38 -0400 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7CA83D.3060007@brouhaha.com> References: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local> <4F7B927C.4000802@brouhaha.com> <4F7B36C4.30201.1EBEE92@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7CA83D.3060007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F7CAA82.70904@neurotica.com> On 04/04/2012 03:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On a more serious note, it used to be that Windows actually had drivers > for HPGL plotters. I haven't checked in a long time, but I doubt that > recent versions of Windows still have that. I'd expect that some CAD > packages can probably still speak HPGL. They do. The whole architectural industry is still based on HPGL, with no particular reason to change. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 4 15:12:39 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 14:12:39 -0600 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7CAB37.6040607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/4/2012 12:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> No, I never had a computer last more than 4 to 5 years. > > Hang on, this _is_ classiccmp, isn't it??? > > I've got machines that are over 40 years old still operational. I'm over 40 and still operational, that is the *important* thing. > -tony > In some cases lack of space has kept me from keeping classic computer items, rather than them going *ka-boom*. Ben. PS. Now if I could get all the space taken with this modern PC back, I'd have room for a *good* turntable and pre-amp. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 15:17:33 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:17:33 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7CA83D.3060007@brouhaha.com> References: <19B8832CABCB4E0E96F7FF893D1E7256@Edicons.local> <4F7B927C.4000802@brouhaha.com> <4F7B36C4.30201.1EBEE92@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7CA83D.3060007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F7CAC5D.3040702@gmail.com> On 04/04/2012 20:59, Eric Smith wrote: (are you the Eric that worked at Cern and ranted about VI?) > John Many Jars wrote: >> I don't think even several model rocket engines would lift it. > > Who said anything about "model" rocket engines? :-) > > On a more serious note, it used to be that Windows actually had > drivers for HPGL plotters. I haven't checked in a long time, but I > doubt that recent versions of Windows still have that. I'd expect > that some CAD packages can probably still speak HPGL. > Windows no longer has HPGL drivers. You can get Roland HPGL drivers that work up to XP with most HPGL plotters. I use them with my HP and HPDS plotters. There are third part plotter drivers that will work with many HPGL plotters available from :- http://www.winline.com/evalpen.html but the real one is very expensive. As you surmise many packages can still be persuaded to produce HPGL. I also wrote a mod to (aka hacked) the IBM 1130 SIMH package so it would plot HPGL. You can see it driving my Hitachi plotter here:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCUUgLvVvpg Dave G4UGM From dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info Wed Apr 4 15:20:51 2012 From: dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:20:51 +0300 Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7CAD23.6070201@conus.info> On 02.04.2012 22:15, Craig J Stadler wrote: > Is this email address still active? > Need to speak to someone about usenet archives... http://www.skrenta.com/rt/utzoo-usenet/news124f1.tgz From dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info Wed Apr 4 15:46:09 2012 From: dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:46:09 +0300 Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 In-Reply-To: <4F7CAD23.6070201@conus.info> References: <4F7CAD23.6070201@conus.info> Message-ID: <4F7CB311.8090203@conus.info> On 04.04.2012 23:20, Dennis Yurichev wrote: > On 02.04.2012 22:15, Craig J Stadler wrote: >> Is this email address still active? >> Need to speak to someone about usenet archives... > > http://www.skrenta.com/rt/utzoo-usenet/news124f1.tgz Oops, that is still broken, sorry! From cb at kryoflux.com Wed Apr 4 16:29:17 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:29:17 +0200 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7CBD2D.6080500@kryoflux.com> > > You don't want to use a PC HD drive, Commodore disks are 40 track (OK, well, 35 track, but still), the narrower head of the 80 track PC drive will cause problems if you want to write. Well, about 80% of the games sold for the C64 were in fact written on industrial grade PC drives with Trace machines. Many titles use 80 track mechanics and heads. It in fact works when the drive is well aligned and you make sure the disk is empty, e.g. degaussed, before you do this, otherwise you would risk keeping garbage for disks that were previously formatted in a 40 track drive with wider heads. All games that do stepping tricks with so called fat tracks or half tracks can't be written with 40 track drives at all. > > An HD PC floppy drive will *NOT* read commodore 1541 disks.not a > chance in hell. PC drives are MFM, commodore are not. totally > incompatible. You are totally wrong. The drive will happily read the disk, but you need a controller that can make use of GRC coding and the special encoding tricks used by copy protections. As the 1541 is a separate computer, there is much freedom here. > I've heard of people using catweasel with 1541 drives, mounted in > their PC's also. Really? Afaik the 80 track drives with 40 track wide heads were custom made for Commodore and don't have a Shugart connector. > those are very different from commodore disks,someone already > mentioned commodore have up to 40 tracks,what about half-tracks, and > copy-protected disks? will they read v-max disks?commodore software > got heavily into copy protection,like rapidlok, and worse in the later > days Indeed. These will cause trouble when read with a 1541 for various reasons. Some protections work by using the index while recording (which the 1541 does not have...), later read a specific track and then step ahead to find some special data when reading a few tracks later. You can't write such protections with a standard 1541 as it lacks the index to aling your data to. Other protections vary bit cell density, which is ok for reading, but can't be written with an unmodified 1541, some make tracks so long and write them in one pass, so you need more ram in a 1541 and some will even trick the sync detection which is not very reliable in the 1541. What makes things worse is that the format used for storing such data, g64, is very badly implemented in most of the emulators out there. To our knowledge all emulators are working with a fixed track size of 7928 bytes per track, which will give trouble for e.g. V-MAX! style disk, at least everything before V3. We are working with Pete Rittwage (author of Nibtools) to find out if we can help enhance e.g. Vice to support properly imaged disks that have demanding protections. Currently some g64s need tampering with, some even need cracking the game, because the format can't properly store the protection (see e.g. Pirates! for fun invloved). See: http://c64preservation.com/dp.php?pg=bangui6 If anyone wants to take a look... we do have V-MAX disk images of Defender Of The Crown that are definitely beyond what emulators will accept at the moment. Let me know... > I'd say zoomfloppy, simply because of nibtools, which is the most > feature-rich for commodore disks I've found.especially where > copy-protection is involved. And, the fact it can write images back to > disk gives it a distinct advantage. this is only for commodore style > disks, other platforms would have their preferred tool(s). Dan. I would agree, at least if writing is important to the person using it. KryoFlux currently does not write g64 files, so it's for reading only (at the moment). We do have a preliminary STREAM to g64 converter, which spits out files that are correct in regard to what's on the disk (leaving out e.g. varying density in a track, which can't be stored by the file format itself), but fail in emulators, because, as written above, all of them work with a fixed track size and so forth. Some protections will fail if the track size is wrong. If you are going for an estimated 85% of things out there, can live with losing index information, don't fear messing with images, having e.g. three to four separate g64s for one game for different emulators, want to start tweaking the drive to alter rotation speed (therefore creating e.g. longer tracks at the cost of slightly wrong recording coercivity), and need a cheap solution, ZoomFloppy with a 1541 and Nibtools will work ok. I also have one for testing, it's very well executed and Jim Brain delivers quality. If you want to go beyond, KryoFlux might come handy. E.g. a 1541 will never show you recording tricks like varied bitcell width, "killer tracks" full of syncs etc. But it's work in progress, and won't be fully ready tomorrow. Modifying a drive to make it read flippy disks in one pass, like at the recording stage, is a pain. Just for the record. Enjoy. Chris From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Apr 4 16:54:31 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:54:31 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <4F7CBD2D.6080500@kryoflux.com> References: , <4F7CBD2D.6080500@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: excellent post there Chris, it still amazes me that in 2012 we can't reliably emulate a simple 8-bit barely 1mhz computer. technology has progressed so far that a 6502 and so forth should be a piece of cake. I've been trying to archive my own collection of c64 disks and using zoomfloppy with nibtools,it's still not perfect for some disks. you can actually buy the IHS (index hole sensor) for the 1541 but I haven't found any infoto say it actually works or helps. it seems our only chance at reliable (duplicateable) method would be to have a custom 1541 drive. doesn't sound like much fun. BTW - I'm still waiting for Vice (or any c64 emulator) to be able to handle serial (rs232) properly,so you can run a BBS fully under an emulator without needing a real c64 or a modem.... Dan. > Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 23:29:17 +0200 > From: cb at kryoflux.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks > > > > > > You don't want to use a PC HD drive, Commodore disks are 40 track (OK, well, 35 track, but still), the narrower head of the 80 track PC drive will cause problems if you want to write. > Well, about 80% of the games sold for the C64 were in fact written on > industrial grade PC drives with Trace machines. Many titles use 80 track > mechanics and heads. It in fact works when the drive is well aligned and > you make sure the disk is empty, e.g. degaussed, before you do this, > otherwise you would risk keeping garbage for disks that were previously > formatted in a 40 track drive with wider heads. > > All games that do stepping tricks with so called fat tracks or half > tracks can't be written with 40 track drives at all. > > > > > > An HD PC floppy drive will *NOT* read commodore 1541 disks.not a > > chance in hell. PC drives are MFM, commodore are not. totally > > incompatible. > > You are totally wrong. The drive will happily read the disk, but you > need a controller that can make use of GRC coding and the special > encoding tricks used by copy protections. As the 1541 is a separate > computer, there is much freedom here. > > > I've heard of people using catweasel with 1541 drives, mounted in > > their PC's also. > > Really? Afaik the 80 track drives with 40 track wide heads were custom > made for Commodore and don't have a Shugart connector. > > > those are very different from commodore disks,someone already > > mentioned commodore have up to 40 tracks,what about half-tracks, and > > copy-protected disks? will they read v-max disks?commodore software > > got heavily into copy protection,like rapidlok, and worse in the later > > days > > Indeed. These will cause trouble when read with a 1541 for various > reasons. Some protections work by using the index while recording (which > the 1541 does not have...), later read a specific track and then step > ahead to find some special data when reading a few tracks later. You > can't write such protections with a standard 1541 as it lacks the index > to aling your data to. > > Other protections vary bit cell density, which is ok for reading, but > can't be written with an unmodified 1541, some make tracks so long and > write them in one pass, so you need more ram in a 1541 and some will > even trick the sync detection which is not very reliable in the 1541. > > What makes things worse is that the format used for storing such data, > g64, is very badly implemented in most of the emulators out there. To > our knowledge all emulators are working with a fixed track size of 7928 > bytes per track, which will give trouble for e.g. V-MAX! style disk, at > least everything before V3. > > We are working with Pete Rittwage (author of Nibtools) to find out if we > can help enhance e.g. Vice to support properly imaged disks that have > demanding protections. Currently some g64s need tampering with, some > even need cracking the game, because the format can't properly store the > protection (see e.g. Pirates! for fun invloved). See: > http://c64preservation.com/dp.php?pg=bangui6 > > If anyone wants to take a look... we do have V-MAX disk images of > Defender Of The Crown that are definitely beyond what emulators will > accept at the moment. Let me know... > > > I'd say zoomfloppy, simply because of nibtools, which is the most > > feature-rich for commodore disks I've found.especially where > > copy-protection is involved. And, the fact it can write images back to > > disk gives it a distinct advantage. this is only for commodore style > > disks, other platforms would have their preferred tool(s). Dan. > > I would agree, at least if writing is important to the person using it. > KryoFlux currently does not write g64 files, so it's for reading only > (at the moment). We do have a preliminary STREAM to g64 converter, which > spits out files that are correct in regard to what's on the disk > (leaving out e.g. varying density in a track, which can't be stored by > the file format itself), but fail in emulators, because, as written > above, all of them work with a fixed track size and so forth. Some > protections will fail if the track size is wrong. > > If you are going for an estimated 85% of things out there, can live with > losing index information, don't fear messing with images, having e.g. > three to four separate g64s for one game for different emulators, want > to start tweaking the drive to alter rotation speed (therefore creating > e.g. longer tracks at the cost of slightly wrong recording coercivity), > and need a cheap solution, ZoomFloppy with a 1541 and Nibtools will work > ok. I also have one for testing, it's very well executed and Jim Brain > delivers quality. If you want to go beyond, KryoFlux might come handy. > E.g. a 1541 will never show you recording tricks like varied bitcell > width, "killer tracks" full of syncs etc. But it's work in progress, and > won't be fully ready tomorrow. > > Modifying a drive to make it read flippy disks in one pass, like at the > recording stage, is a pain. Just for the record. > > Enjoy. > > Chris From brain at jbrain.com Wed Apr 4 19:00:33 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 19:00:33 -0500 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <201204041319.q34DJCNC11010282@floodgap.com> References: <201204041319.q34DJCNC11010282@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F7CE0A1.2040507@jbrain.com> On 4/4/2012 8:19 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. > Why not get a xum1541-style device like a ZoomFloppy? Open source hardware > and software, works great with Mac, Windows and Linux (I ported opencbm to > PowerPC and happily image .d64s from a 1571 and my G5). > If you can provide a link, I'll post it on the product page for others. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 4 21:21:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. Has > anyone done this ? From what I gather you just get the board and you can > get the floppy cable and a power supply and power cord. But you need to > buy a HD PC floppy drive and then can read the Commodore disks. That is > Commodore 1541 disks. Does this sound right ? What do YOU mean by "read" the disks? Do you want access to the contents of the files, or are you archiving them? Kryoflux, and several others, will let you store and MAYBE recreate, but if you think that you have file access, then you will need to write an OS file-system. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Apr 4 21:36:22 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:36:22 -0500 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F7D0526.2070905@jbrain.com> On 4/4/2012 9:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 4 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: >> I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. Has >> anyone done this ? From what I gather you just get the board and you can >> get the floppy cable and a power supply and power cord. But you need to >> buy a HD PC floppy drive and then can read the Commodore disks. That is >> Commodore 1541 disks. Does this sound right ? > What do YOU mean by "read" the disks? > Do you want access to the contents of the files, or are you archiving > them? > Kryoflux, and several others, will let you store and MAYBE recreate, but > if you think that you have file access, then you will need to write an OS > file-system. > > Not to plug a product per se, but X*1541 and XU*1541 cables/adapters will create D64 images from 1541 disks, which can be used with a myriad of utilities and emulators designed to read such image formats. JIm -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 4 22:13:00 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 20:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <4F7CE0A1.2040507@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Apr 4, 12 07:00:33 pm" Message-ID: <201204050313.q353D0T89830588@floodgap.com> > > > I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. > > > > Why not get a xum1541-style device like a ZoomFloppy? Open source hardware > > and software, works great with Mac, Windows and Linux (I ported opencbm to > > PowerPC and happily image .d64s from a 1571 and my G5). > > If you can provide a link, I'll post it on the product page for others. I put it up on my TOTALLY UNSUPPORTED DON'T BOTHER ME IF THIS DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU AND YOU NEED A GOPHER CLIENT ports page. http://www.floodgap.com/software/ppcp/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" ------------------ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Apr 5 01:03:27 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 07:03:27 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> from "allison" at Apr 3, 12 06:26:10 pm Message-ID: <7071DC3159A4491FA2B7BF678341EF40@Edicons.local> Oh Dear! I seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornets nest. The facts are clear. I related what went on at DEC whilst working there. My memory could have been at fault. However another former DEC employee (Alison) also there at the time in question corroborated what I had said with out any prompting from me. That?s enough to establish it as something that would pass any evidential test legal or otherwise. 'Truth is often stranger that fiction' Finally - perhaps I should have 'here's how I did it. You do what's best for you.' I have four DEC screens once useless through blue spot working just fine. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 04 April 2012 19:29 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? > > On 04/03/2012 04:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> All well and good. One tiny point. I worked for DEC Terminals Product Lin= > >> e > >> when those items where in current production.=20 > >> > > I could counter that by saying that while you may well hvee(SP?) designed > > things that used said CRT, and may have handled the CRTs for many years, > > this does not mean you know exactly how the CRTs themselves were > > designed, and whether they remain sade(SP?) if you remvoe(SP?) the front glass layer > > > > I don't beelvie DEC designed the CRT, they bought it in. I am nto(SP?) even > > sure all came from one manufacturer, in which case it may well be that > > some CRRTs(SP?) are safe without the outer glass, some are not. _I_ don't > > know, and I'd rather not be showered in glass fagments to find out. > > > > > > Your belief is not a factor, you didn't work for DEC. > What the heck has that got to do with anything... I stopped accepting the 'This is right because I say so' sort of arguemtn when I was abotu 3 years old, and I have no intention of acceting it now. It's very likely you and Ron are right, but, to quote the text over the doorway of Kirkaldy's works in Southwark : 'Facts, not Opinions'. > Rod and I both worked for DEC, I also worked with the terminals people > during the Vt220, VT24x and VT320 series. DEC actually did interact > with CRT designers to get the exact product they wanted to DEC > specifications. I am scpetical. If only because the CRTs in every DEC terminal I've been inside has been a standard part with a normal type number. Also, no manufacturer uses custom parts if they can avoid it. An of-the-shelf part is cheaper and supply is more certain. And there is absolutelly nothign odd about the dispaly circuitry in any VT series terminal, or the performance requireds (resolution, etc) to require a custom-made CRT It's very likely DEC talked ot the CRT manufacturers, of course. But mainly yo determine whcih CRT(s) would be suitable. Anotehr thing, even if the CRT was custom-designed, I doubt very much the requirment would have included 'Must be implosion-saft if soem hacker removes the outer glass layer'. It would me much more likely to state something like 'The CRT must have integral implosion protection to ) and the manufactuer decides how to comply with that. Given that, any modication to the CRT could invalidate it. > I'm old enough to rember and worked on old tVs that didn't have such > a safety layer. It was never an issue. For sport my brothers would As am I... FWIW, though, no TV set sold to the public in the UK ever had a CRT pointing at the viewer without some kind of implosion protection. The earlists sets (pre-wr) mounted the CRT vertically wit hthe screen on top, the picture was viewed in a mirror. If the CRT imploded, the gass spreyed upwards. Later sets with the CRT conventionally mounted had a laminated glas or (later) perspex sheild in front of the CRT. THen came tension bands and laminated faceplate CRTs. Now, safety was takne a lot less seriously back then, but they thougt this was enough of a danger for it to be necessary to do something about it. And CRT implosion was, and is, not common. > take the > tubes (CRT) from junkers and haul them out back where they would > stand back 20-30 feet and pelt them with rocks. I've observed they > can be quite robust fromt he (SPELL!) front but quite fragile from the > neck side. Sure, the scree nad flare are thick glass, they have to be to withstand atmospheric pressure. It's darn hard to break them. But that is not the point. We are not only worried about somebody hitting the screen. The other daner is stresses in the glasss causing it to fracture spontaneously. And that does happen (I have met a TV engineer who had a CRT crack across the screen one day for no apparent reason). That's the big problem it can happen without warning. > > >> The tubes were just fine without the face plate and met all implosion > >> requirements. Some (Green I think) did not have them at all.=20 > > Interesting. I am suprised there are any differentces(SP?) between the CRt(case) > > other than the phosphor. Why was this? Did all colours of CRT come from > > the same manufacturer? > > > > It probably is safe to run the CRT without the outer glass sheet, and I am > > sure you know what you are doing. > > > It had to do with acceleration voltages and part since the added glass was > leaded to meet EU/TUV standards for X-ray radiation. How coue this didn't applit to the green CRT then? > > [1] A common way to do this was to use one of those neon tester > > screwdrivers which would light up if touched on a live chassis. If so, > > revese the mains conenctions. A _NOT FUNNY_ 'joke' was to convice the > > newbie that if he took his screwdriver apart and turned the neon round, > > it would then light on a dead chassis. (Of course it does no such thing, > > it still lights on a live one). > > > > Still dangerous as the mains line can still be intercepted. You do > learn to behave well > to live long. Sure, I over-simplified it. What you really do is : Check the mains tester on a known-live point. Check the chassis is daed, but is receiving power, and/or the tester lights on the live feed to the chassis, say on the dropping resistor. Check the mains tester on a live point _again_ And then brush the chassi with the back of you fingers to check it's not live. That wway you're thrown off if it is.. > I alwas felt that anything mains powered without isolation was designed to > kill anyone trying to repair them. Sort of the first generation > "No User Serviceable Components Inside". Hmmm.. Although at least over here j-random-public would pull off the back and swap valves... To be honest, I don't mucu care for non-isolated TVs and radios. I much prefer a nice mains transformer and parallel heaters. But I can see the economics of it.. And if you repair old comptuers you are goign to come up against an SMPU sometime. And in many (but not all) of those there will eb considerable non-isolated circuitry. So you have to know how to work on it safely. -tony From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Apr 4 07:14:35 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 14:14:35 +0200 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <4F7C3B2B.3060202@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 04.04.2012 08:03, schrieb Jeffrey Brace: > Hello All, > > I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. Has anyone done this ? From what I gather you just get the board and you can get the floppy cable and a power supply and power cord. But you need to buy a HD PC floppy drive and then can read the Commodore disks. That is Commodore 1541 disks. Does this sound right ? > > Jeffrey Brace For Commodore, it is easier to obtain an old 1541 drive at some auction site or flea market and then buy or solder a centronics<->commodore cable (google: X1541). Commodore floppies are not HD, so a HD floppy drive probably won't work correctly for writing. You should find a DD 35/40 Trk drive which is surely available from the auction site or flea market as well but can well cause more hassle than a (working) 1541/71 drive which understands Commodore's obscure GCR format already. -- Holger From cym224 at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 07:41:03 2012 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 08:41:03 -0400 Subject: TeX - Re: PRIME NUMBERS In-Reply-To: References: <201204030400.AAA15279@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 3 April 2012 15:51, Tony Duell wrote: >> I once looked - briefly - at building an independent TeX >> implementation. [...] > But the TeXbook is not all the documetation. It's Volume A of a 5-volume > set ('Computers and Typesetting'), the other volumes being > > B : TeX : The Program (the Woven source of TeX) > C : THe MetaFont book (user manual to MetaFont) > D : MetaFont : THe Program (the Woven source of MetaFont) > E : THe COmputer Modern Typefaces (the font source) > > I would guess you'd need to read and understnad Volume B as well... Andrew Trevor wrote an independent implementation called OzTeX (in Modula-2). Knuth's tests are called trip.* From bud7388 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 19:07:05 2012 From: bud7388 at yahoo.com (Wayne Light) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit Message-ID: <1333584425.78109.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> My son bought this kit from a yard sale... but there is no manual.? I read on the internet that you might have the manual for this kit? It is the 75 in 1 made by Tandy for Radio Shack. ? Thanks so much for any help. ? Wayne From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 07:53:45 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 08:53:45 -0400 Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit In-Reply-To: <1333584425.78109.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1333584425.78109.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Try Elenco's website, they OEM'd most of Radio Shack's electronic kits. On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Wayne Light wrote: > My son bought this kit from a yard sale... but there is no manual. I read > on the internet that you might have the manual for this kit? It is the 75 > in 1 made by Tandy for Radio Shack. > > Thanks so much for any help. > > Wayne > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 07:59:14 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 08:59:14 -0400 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Your belief is not a factor, you didn't work for DEC. > > Rod and I both worked for DEC, I also worked with the terminals people > during the Vt220, VT24x and VT320 series. ? DEC actually did interact > with CRT designers to get the exact product they wanted to DEC > specifications. Since the 1970s, maybe even the late 60s, just about all CRTs were semi-custom parts. The tube companies normally would work with a manufacturer to fit the needed specs and tweak certain characteristics at no extra cost. I am sure DEC was do so with the tubes they were buying. > I'm old enough to rember and worked on old tVs that didn't have such > a safety layer. ?It was never an issue. ?For sport my brothers would take > the > tubes (CRT) ?from junkers and haul them out back where they would > stand back 20-30 feet and pelt them with rocks. ?I've observed they > can be quite robust fromt he front but quite fragile from the neck side. I have wondered if the whole CRT safety glass issue was the result of some sort of nationwide scare - the real reasons are probably lost to time. The stories of tubes imploding and sending shards of glass out the front like a shotgun sound fantastic - but it seems that really never happened (I should say "never"). Even with the big 12 inch radar scope tubes from World War 2 with the glass in the face much thinner than those in the late 1940s or 50s tubes - the necks were always the weak part and took all the damage. -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 08:25:54 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 09:25:54 -0400 Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit In-Reply-To: References: <1333584425.78109.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09C495EA-050A-4BD7-B691-ADE53ED6EC22@gmail.com> On Apr 5, 2012, at 8:53 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > Try Elenco's website, they OEM'd most of Radio Shack's electronic kits. > > On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Wayne Light wrote: > >> My son bought this kit from a yard sale... but there is no manual. I read >> on the internet that you might have the manual for this kit? It is the 75 >> in 1 made by Tandy for Radio Shack. Oh man, I remember that kit. That thing got me started in electronics. Lots of fond memories! - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 5 08:38:37 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 06:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit In-Reply-To: <09C495EA-050A-4BD7-B691-ADE53ED6EC22@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Apr 5, 12 09:25:54 am" Message-ID: <201204051338.q35Dcbmn7077910@floodgap.com> > >> My son bought this kit from a yard sale... but there is no manual. I read > >> on the internet that you might have the manual for this kit? It is the 75 > >> in 1 made by Tandy for Radio Shack. > > Oh man, I remember that kit. That thing got me started in electronics. > Lots of fond memories! I have a 30 in 1 and a 160 in 1. They really were great to learn with. If I ever spawn, I'll probably unleash it on the larvae. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 5 10:40:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 08:40:19 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: , <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <4F7D5A73.1310.136EDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2012 at 8:59, William Donzelli wrote: > I have wondered if the whole CRT safety glass issue was the result of > some sort of nationwide scare - the real reasons are probably lost to > time. The stories of tubes imploding and sending shards of glass out > the front like a shotgun sound fantastic - but it seems that really > never happened (I should say "never"). Even with the big 12 inch radar > scope tubes from World War 2 with the glass in the face much thinner > than those in the late 1940s or 50s tubes - the necks were always the > weak part and took all the damage. Good question. Our family 10" Philco (1948) had a sheet of glass in front of the CRT, as did our 1953 large-screen RCA. I wonder if it was more to protect the face of the CRT from being scratched by the overzealous housekeeper. Dig into an old RCA tube manual and I think it notes the CRTs without special faceplate protection. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 5 10:56:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 11:56:41 -0400 Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit In-Reply-To: <09C495EA-050A-4BD7-B691-ADE53ED6EC22@gmail.com> References: <1333584425.78109.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <09C495EA-050A-4BD7-B691-ADE53ED6EC22@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F7DC0B9.3030105@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2012 09:25 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> My son bought this kit from a yard sale... but there is no manual. I read >>> on the internet that you might have the manual for this kit? It is the 75 >>> in 1 made by Tandy for Radio Shack. > > Oh man, I remember that kit. That thing got me started in electronics. Lots of fond memories! Really!! Very cool. I got my start in electronics with the 65-in-1 kit, when I was 7. I remember that Christmas morning very, very well. We lived in Bordentown, NJ. My mother and grandmother were sitting at the kitchen table talking, and I was where any kid would be on Christmas morning, on the living room floor. I built the "electronic organ" kit, basically an oscillator driving the speaker, frequency controlled by the variable resistor, switched by the key. I guess my mother and grandmother thought of it more as a "toy", but I remember both of their heads whipping around like lightning when I hit the key and it went "BEEP!" Coincidentally, just last week I scored a 65-in-1 kit via eBay, complete except for the 2xAA battery holder and its two spring terminals. I received and opened the box two days ago. I really wasn't prepared for the flood of emotions and memories, I almost got misty-eyed. Almost. ;) Good for the soul. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Apr 5 13:09:24 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 19:09:24 +0100 Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit In-Reply-To: <4F7DC0B9.3030105@neurotica.com> References: <1333584425.78109.YahooMailNeo@web121301.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <09C495EA-050A-4BD7-B691-ADE53ED6EC22@gmail.com> <4F7DC0B9.3030105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2012 16:56, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Really!! ?Very cool. ?I got my start in electronics with the 65-in-1 > kit, when I was 7. ?I remember that Christmas morning very, very well. Ah memories.. I was about the same age when I got introduced to electronics. My mum was a teacher, but her school and my primary school holidays occasionally didn't match, so I'd end up sat at the back of her class (she taught Biology) making up simple circuits on some sort of industrial-strength (i.e. almost teenager-proof) pegboard system that my mother borrowed from the science labs! I then got one of the 65-in-1-type kits, second hand, though sadly I can't remember what type or even make. I remember it did radios and a "burglar alarm", (light sensitive resistor, and torch, either side of a doorway) and it wasn't much further on that I graduated to soldering up single-use kits from Tandy, Fun :-) Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 13:09:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 19:09:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7CAB37.6040607@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Apr 4, 12 02:12:39 pm Message-ID: > >> No, I never had a computer last more than 4 to 5 years. > > > > Hang on, this _is_ classiccmp, isn't it??? > > > > I've got machines that are over 40 years old still operational. > > I'm over 40 and still operational, that is the *important* thing. As am I. I don't think I own any computers tht are older than I am, alas. My HP9100Bs are a couple of years younger than me. The Casio AL1000 is close, it's about the same age , but I don;t know wheter it was made before me or vice versa. I do have older mechancial calculators, but as they're not programmable, I don't class them as computers. I've certainly demonstrated some of my machines tp student audiences where the machine is older than everyboduy in the audience.... > PS. Now if I could get all the space taken with this modern PC > back, I'd have room for a *good* turntable and pre-amp. > Hmm.. A turntable on plinth is about 2' by 18" I think. The pre-amp, well, it's only going to be 4 valves and no big rransformers, so that's quite small.. You must be even shorter of space than I. I was thinking that perhaps you meant an EMG accoustic gramophone with a 4' horn or similar, but then I notices the 'pre-amp'... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 13:42:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 19:42:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7D5A73.1310.136EDA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 12 08:40:19 am Message-ID: > > On 5 Apr 2012 at 8:59, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I have wondered if the whole CRT safety glass issue was the result of > > some sort of nationwide scare - the real reasons are probably lost to > > time. The stories of tubes imploding and sending shards of glass out > > the front like a shotgun sound fantastic - but it seems that really > > never happened (I should say "never"). Even with the big 12 inch radar > > scope tubes from World War 2 with the glass in the face much thinner > > than those in the late 1940s or 50s tubes - the necks were always the > > weak part and took all the damage. > > Good question. Our family 10" Philco (1948) had a sheet of glass in > front of the CRT, as did our 1953 large-screen RCA. I wonder if it > was more to protect the face of the CRT from being scratched by the > overzealous housekeeper. > > Dig into an old RCA tube manual and I think it notes the CRTs without > special faceplate protection. Hmm.. If it is an 'urban legend' then its one that's spread through many countries, UK, and European TVs all ahve some kind of implosion protection too. And thais at a time when we didn't have ambulance-chasing lawyers, The data books on CRTs from the 1960s (I have a few) make it very clear tht you ahve to fit a separate implosion screen if you use CRTs without implosion protection. If the 'real' reason for the implosion screen was to protect the CRT from the user, why was it dropepd when the CRTs had tension bands? Such screens are just as easy to scratch. And yes, CRTs can and do fractuer at the screen end. Not normall from impact (as several people have sid, the neck breaks first) but because of stresses in the glass. Not common, but presumably enough of a danger to make it worth doing something about. I guess ultimately what you do with your own CRT is up to you. If the only risk was while you were doign the repari ,that woudl eb the end of it. But IMHO it isn't. A modified CRT could fial at some point in the future, and I'd rather not have an innocent bystander harmed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 13:30:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 19:30:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <7071DC3159A4491FA2B7BF678341EF40@Edicons.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 5, 12 07:03:27 am Message-ID: > > Oh Dear! > I seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornets nest. The facts are > clear. I related what went on at DEC whilst working there. My memory coul= > d > have been at fault. However another former DEC employee (Alison) also the= > re > at the time in question corroborated what I had said with out any prompti= > ng > from me. That=92s enough to establish it as something that would pass an= > y > evidential test legal or otherwise.=20 My problem with all this is that DEC did not make their own CRTs for these terminals/monitors. And even if they were custom-designed (which I doubt), I am amost positive that the envelopes are stanedard. They are the smae dimensions, have lugs in the same places, etc. So it's likely the implosion protection was standard too. I am sure DEC requried integral implosion protection on such CRTs, they would have not complied with safety requirements otherwise. This could eb done through a tension band, a laminated faceplate or probably other methods. Wht is not obvious to me is that if you alter the CRT in some way, such as removign oen layer of a laminated faceplate, that it still remains safe to use. Maybe it does. CRT data sheets/books are no help, they simply say 'No attempt should ever be made to remove the outer glass layer or the tension band' or words to that effect. No CRT manufactuer is goign to state publically it's OK, in case some idiot does somehting silly and gets injured . The liability is too great. An off-the-record comment from somebody who'd worked for a CRT manufactuer [1] would be interesting... [1[ I know you worked for a regunner, but that's not quite hte smae thing. Most regunning involves working on the thin glass at the back end of the neck, not the screen/flare. > > 'Truth is often stranger that fiction' > > Finally - perhaps I should have 'here's how I did it. You do what's best = > for > you.' I have four DEC screens once useless through blue spot working just > fine. =20 My worry is what happens if the glass fractures at some point in the future. You might not be the one using the monitor then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 5 13:36:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 19:36:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit In-Reply-To: <201204051338.q35Dcbmn7077910@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 5, 12 06:38:37 am Message-ID: > I have a 30 in 1 and a 160 in 1. They really were great to learn with. If I > ever spawn, I'll probably unleash it on the larvae. FWIW, I always prefered the Philip EE series of kits. Rather than just conencitng wies between spring terminals,. you got to handle 'real' components which you conneted to spring terminals. And some of the circutis were quite interesting (I had the old UK system EE1003, 1004, 1105). I can remember building a beat-frequence audio oscillator, a wien bridge auto oscilaltor (with a lamp to stabilise it ;-)), several superhet radios and measuing the response of the IF transformer. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 5 14:18:42 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 12:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 5, 12 07:09:36 pm" Message-ID: <201204051918.q35JIgjv11534510@floodgap.com> > As am I. I don't think I own any computers tht are older than I am, alas. My (several models of) KIM-1 is nearly as old as I am. It is the oldest computer model in my collection. But I'm a young whippersnapper and I don't mind people on my lawn, as long as they are attractive and female. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Arguments with furniture are rarely productive. -- Kehlog Albran ----------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 5 14:34:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:34:22 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7D5A73.1310.136EDA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 12 08:40:19 am, Message-ID: <4F7D914E.930.E9B345@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2012 at 19:42, Tony Duell wrote: > Hmm.. If it is an 'urban legend' then its one that's spread through > many countries, UK, and European TVs all ahve some kind of implosion > protection too. And thais at a time when we didn't have > ambulance-chasing lawyers, The data books on CRTs from the 1960s (I > have a few) make it very clear tht you ahve to fit a separate > implosion screen if you use CRTs without implosion protection. My issue with saying that implosion was a clear danger was that the sheet of glass isn't present on all 1940s sets. Could the glass also have been intended for protection against the soft X-rays emitted at the CRT face? Remember this was the time when HV rectifiers and even output tubes were customarily placed in a metal cage. --Chuck From jgessling at yahoo.com Thu Apr 5 15:07:48 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 13:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit Message-ID: <1333656468.56922.YahooMailNeo@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I will check when I get home, which manual I actually have.? Last year when this topic came up I had offered to copy one of mine but when I requested some $ for the trouble, I never heard back again.? The pages are an odd size (at least to me) so copying was going to be a bit of a chore. On the sentimental trail...? It was about 4 years ago that I went to join my wife in Nigeria.? I was unemployed and she lived in her company's compound so I didn't figure to get out much.? So I took with me a 150 in 1 kit (with manual) that I had picked up at a flea market.? I threw in a handful of random components for variety and added a cheap multimeter and spent many an afternoon with my set and the "All About Circuits" online books. I've been a software guy my whole career and had always wondered how electronics actually worked.? I really enjoyed the whole experience, and the fact that I now I know a little something anyway. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 5 16:41:23 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:41:23 -0600 Subject: mad music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7E1183.7050505@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/5/2012 12:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I was thinking that perhaps you meant an EMG accoustic gramophone with a > 4' horn or similar, but then I notices the 'pre-amp'... > I have this Easter Lilly with horn shaped flowers...now how to get the sound into the plant from a 78? > -tony > Ben. From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Apr 5 16:59:25 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 14:59:25 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <201204051918.q35JIgjv11534510@floodgap.com> References: <201204051918.q35JIgjv11534510@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5 Apr 2012, at 12:18 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> As am I. I don't think I own any computers tht are older than I am, alas. > > My (several models of) KIM-1 is nearly as old as I am. It is the oldest > computer model in my collection. But I'm a young whippersnapper and I don't > mind people on my lawn, as long as they are attractive and female. In my experience the exception you note does not change with advancing age. Thankfully. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 5 17:19:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:19:52 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? Message-ID: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> A subscriber over at the Vintage Computer forum has an interesting board to ID: http://www.vintage- computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8414&d=1333637581 Does it ring any bells for anyone? --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 17:43:26 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:43:26 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F7E200E.5010007@gmail.com> Sun 9U VME ram board. 24mb from a Sun 4/2x0 maybe ? Might even be just 8mb or 16. In fact, I think 16mb is more likely. On 4/5/2012 3:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.vintage- > computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8414&d=1333637581 > > Does it ring any bells for anyone? > > --Chuck > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 5 17:43:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 18:43:15 -0400 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F7E2003.7060006@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2012 06:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A subscriber over at the Vintage Computer forum has an interesting > board to ID: > > http://www.vintage- > computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8414&d=1333637581 > > Does it ring any bells for anyone? This is an 8MB RAM board for a Sun 3/200 and Sun 4/200. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 17:45:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 18:45:50 -0400 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A subscriber over at the Vintage Computer forum has an interesting > board to ID: > > http://www.vintage- > computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8414&d=1333637581 > > Does it ring any bells for anyone? Looks like a large-case VME memory board. Sun-3/Sun-4 era? If so, there might be a Sun-format part number on a tag or on the board itself, like "501-1333" -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 17:48:44 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:48:44 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> Oh and it looks to have been stripped of parts and is more a really dangerous Frisbee at this point. Picture is kind of blurry though. If you read the first 7 numbers on the plastic tag on the top ejector you can look it up easily. On 4/5/2012 3:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A subscriber over at the Vintage Computer forum has an interesting > board to ID: > > http://www.vintage- > computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8414&d=1333637581 > > Does it ring any bells for anyone? > > --Chuck > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 17:54:44 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 15:54:44 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7E200E.5010007@gmail.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E200E.5010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 3:43 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Sun 9U VME ram board. 24mb from a Sun 4/2x0 maybe ? Might even be just 8mb > or 16. In fact, I think 16mb is more likely. > > > On 4/5/2012 3:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> http://www.vintage- >> computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8414&d=1333637581 >> >> Does it ring any bells for anyone? >> >> --Chuck The part number on the white tag by the ejector handle will tell the story. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 18:03:02 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 16:03:02 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Maybe one of these: Sun-4/260/280 501-1102 8MB ECC 501-1254 32MB ECC 501-1451 32MB ECC 501-1576 16MB ECC From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 18:23:54 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 19:23:54 -0400 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 6:48 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Oh and it looks to have been stripped of parts and is more a really > dangerous Frisbee at this point. Looks fine to me. Those are ZIP chips. 288 of them. If that's 8MB (which I believe it is), those are 256Kbit DRAMs. 1MB chips would make it 32MB. -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 18:33:02 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 16:33:02 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F7E2BAE.30100@gmail.com> Check out the number of empty sockets below the bar. Looks like about 8 empty sockets. One or two as spare I could understand but, that looks like most socket IC's were pulled. Might just be the blurry picture though. On 4/5/2012 4:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > this point. > Looks fine to me. > > Those are ZIP chips. 288 of them. If that's 8MB (which I believe it > is), those are 256Kbit DRAMs. 1MB chips would make it 32MB. > > -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 18:44:15 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 16:44:15 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F7E2E4F.9030808@gmail.com> Luckily I have access to the latest in CSI technology and was able to isolate, zoom, and enhance to reveal what appears to be empty sockets. http://imgur.com/8EntM On 4/5/2012 4:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Looks fine to me. Those are ZIP chips. 288 of them. If that's 8MB > (which I believe it is), those are 256Kbit DRAMs. 1MB chips would make > it 32MB. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 18:44:24 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 19:44:24 -0400 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7E2BAE.30100@gmail.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> <4F7E2BAE.30100@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 7:33 PM, mc68010 wrote: > ?Check out the number of empty sockets below the bar. Looks like about 8 > empty sockets. ?One or two as spare I could understand but, that looks like > most socket IC's were pulled. ?Might just be the blurry picture though. Ah. Down there. Yes. I do see a few missing DIP packages. When you said totally gutted I envisioned an entirely different amount of removal. I can't comment on what belongs where on that era of board. I'm sure there are people here that would know from experience. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 5 18:46:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:46:03 -0400 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7E200E.5010007@gmail.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E200E.5010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F7E2EBB.1020004@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2012 06:43 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Sun 9U VME ram board. 24mb from a Sun 4/2x0 maybe ? Might even be just > 8mb or 16. In fact, I think 16mb is more likely. It's an 8MB board. They didn't make 16MB or 24MB boards for those systems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 5 18:48:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:48:45 -0400 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F7E2F5D.5080903@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2012 07:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Oh and it looks to have been stripped of parts and is more a really >> dangerous Frisbee at this point. > > Looks fine to me. > > Those are ZIP chips. 288 of them. If that's 8MB (which I believe it > is), those are 256Kbit DRAMs. 1MB chips would make it 32MB. Yes, I take that back, they did make 32MB boards for those systems if I recall correctly, but there weren't many of those around. It has been a looooong time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 5 18:57:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:57:10 -0400 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> <4F7E2BAE.30100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F7E3156.3000301@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2012 07:44 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 7:33 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Check out the number of empty sockets below the bar. Looks like about 8 >> empty sockets. One or two as spare I could understand but, that looks like >> most socket IC's were pulled. Might just be the blurry picture though. > > Ah. Down there. Yes. I do see a few missing DIP packages. When you > said totally gutted I envisioned an entirely different amount of > removal. > > I can't comment on what belongs where on that era of board. I'm sure > there are people here that would know from experience. There was a time when I'd know that board like the back of my hand. :-( We ran so many of those it'd make your head spin. Thinking about it, though, info is starting to come back to me. Look at the plate on the top edge of the board. If the LEDs are at the top, near or underneath the part number and serial number tag, it's for a 3/200 or a 4/200. If the LEDs are toward the middle, it's for a 4/400. They are incompatible. This is likely the latter, given the ZIPs, and it's probably a 32MB board. As others have said, look at the plastic tag on the ejector handle. The first seven digits are the part number. I apologize for my misinformation earlier. (hopefully anyone searching the archives in the future will find this message as well) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 19:08:23 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 17:08:23 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7E2F5D.5080903@neurotica.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> <4F7E2F5D.5080903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F7E33F7.2020702@gmail.com> I think the 16mb card was the identical board though not fully populated with ZIPs. On 4/5/2012 4:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, I take that back, they did make 32MB boards for those systems if > I recall correctly, but there weren't many of those around. It has > been a looooong time. -Dave From jgessling at yahoo.com Thu Apr 5 19:14:58 2012 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 75 in 1 Electronic Project Kit Message-ID: <1333671298.87732.YahooMailNeo@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sorry, don't got any 75 to 1 manuals.? I've got two 200 to 1 sets and a 150 to 1.?? Good luck in your quest.? If you can find it that's great, or look further for a different set with a manual.? Anyway a lesson how "ephemera" as they call it can be really more valuable that the actual thing,?? Including the model number in any future messages may help.? Regards, Jim p.s. Are you near the SF Bay area, maybe I could just give you one of the other sets?? I'm getting to the age of reducing, but not quite to the age of shipping. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 19:28:00 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:28:00 -0700 Subject: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7E3156.3000301@neurotica.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> <4F7E2BAE.30100@gmail.com> <4F7E3156.3000301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2012 5:11 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > There was a time when I'd know that board like the back of my hand. > :-( We ran so many of those it'd make your head spin. > > Thinking about it, though, info is starting to come back to me. Look > at the plate on the top edge of the board. If the LEDs are at the top, > near or underneath the part number and serial number tag, it's for a > 3/200 or a 4/200. If the LEDs are toward the middle, it's for a 4/400. > They are incompatible. This is likely the latter, given the ZIPs, and > it's probably a 32MB board. > The 32MB 501-1333 for the 4/400 uses ZIPs but also uses (8x) square PGA AM29C660 instead of the large DIPs so that is not the board. I have a 501-1333 right in front of me at the moment. On the 501-1333 all of those socketed DIPs are PALs. If those are missing I doubt they could be replaced. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 5 19:46:40 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:46:40 -0500 Subject: VMS Backup files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7E3CF0.9050608@pico-systems.com> Well, finally figured out how to use the vmsbackup program to unpack a backup save set - it sure wasn't obvious. First, after reading in the whole tape, you need to extract the backup save set file with no formatting. So, it won't handle a tape container format. So, you want the XXX.BCK file put into a file with just a stream of raw bytes, with no blocksize value like in the container format. Then, you use vmsbackup like this : vmsbackup -xe -b -f Jon From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 5 20:10:02 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 22:10:02 -0300 Subject: ID memory board? References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4F7E214C.3010705@gmail.com> <4F7E2F5D.5080903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <209d01cd1392$1bb3bed0$7100a8c0@tababook> >> Those are ZIP chips. 288 of them. If that's 8MB (which I believe it >> is), those are 256Kbit DRAMs. 1MB chips would make it 32MB. I could upgrade amigas to the end of my life with just one of these boards worth of zips! :oD (this is a brazilian joke...When our "loved" government opened the gates for imported itens, incluiding automobiles, a Ferrari was being exibited on an automobile exposition at the Anhembi hall and a pair of cyclists said "imagine how many bicycle tires we could make with just one tire of this car!") From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 5 21:00:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:00:33 -0700 Subject: Other boards, was Re: ID memory board? In-Reply-To: <4F7E2BAE.30100@gmail.com> References: <4F7DB818.13170.1813AF5@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4F7E2BAE.30100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F7DEBD1.27831.24B457D@cclist.sydex.com> How about the rest of the boards? http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30062-storage- auction-help!!!&p=218808#post218808 The first one is a mystery--DIO board of some sort? The second one we know (Sun memory) The third one looks like a fiber optic transceiver board The fourth one I guessed as part of a tape drive, but that's just a hunch, owing to what seems to be 9 analog channels. The fifth, the homebrew one with 4 RTL PDIPS, a bunch of TO-220s and some resistors I figured out as a 2-decade BCD counter/decoder. What for, I have no clue. I like games like this, --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 6 01:07:00 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 23:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter Message-ID: Is anyone here aware of a gizmo that will let me plug a USB mouse into an ADB socket? I'm trying to come up with a way to shoehorn modern optical mouse guts into a classic Macintosh mouse. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Apr 6 02:47:27 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 09:47:27 +0200 Subject: Looking for an KDJ11-BF ... Message-ID: <20120406074727.GA76007@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi guys, has someone, perfered in Europe because of the shipping costs, an M8190 with FPU to sell? (Hobbyist use). If yes, please contact me.. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 5 18:01:48 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 16:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: steering back on topic, now that I've gotten the back off... Message-ID: <1333666908.11445.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> seems my last attempt to reply to the thread was eaten by yahoo. What's the best way to gain access to the front of the tube (Rainbow mono monitor). Cut the tie wraps or use a skinny long phillips to detach the tube from the bezel. Apologies if someone answered this, problem is I just don't see the response. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 6 04:17:20 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 02:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea Message-ID: I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for the Commodore sx64 could be made out of wood fairly simply. Is there anyone here who is good at woodworking who'd be interested in doing some tinkering with me? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From sander.reiche at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 04:53:33 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 11:53:33 +0200 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for the Commodore sx64 > could be made out of wood fairly simply. ?Is there anyone here who is good > at woodworking who'd be interested in doing some tinkering with me? > Rosewood always has a nice look. -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 05:59:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 06:59:19 -0400 Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B70474F-CB0D-4AF9-86C1-490CDB7EB760@gmail.com> I'm working on making a device to convert USB keyboards and mice (through a hub or KVM, generally) to ADB. What would the demand be like for something like this? Would anyone else want one (or ten)? I'm not looking to make any money, just keep production costs down by going in volume. Naturally, it would be open source and field-updateable. - Dave On Apr 6, 2012, at 2:07 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Is anyone here aware of a gizmo that will let me plug a USB mouse into an ADB socket? I'm trying to come up with a way to shoehorn modern optical mouse guts into a classic Macintosh mouse. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Apr 6 07:30:23 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 14:30:23 +0200 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. Message-ID: <20120406123023.GA97059@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, I've tried to compile the VIM-7.3 Sources on my freshly installed VS4000, and entered a pitfall here. Since the C Compiler was complaining that the virtuel memory is exhaustet, I'veed the PGFLQUOTA for the user to 104826 and the VIRTUALPAGCNT SYSGEN Value to 2097152 (max was displayed as 4194304) I've let run autogen and ebooted. Now the system ewfuses to boot: %SYSBOOT-W-WS default and quota raised to PHD+MINWSCNT %SYSBOOT-F-VASOV, system virtual address space exeeded ?06 HLT INST PC= 00009631 PSL=041F0000 >>> _ What can I do now to boot this thing again? Kind Regards, Holm PS: I'm new to VMS, don't expect any knowledge, I'm a Unix guy... -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 6 07:34:11 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204061238.q36Cc7Oc065744@billy.ezwind.net> At 04:53 AM 4/6/2012, Sander Reiche wrote: >Rosewood always has a nice look. Did anyone actually establish, with CCC pedant levels of certainty, that the -8 case in question was actually rosewood? That's the biggest chuckle to me. - John From nick.allen at comcast.net Thu Apr 5 11:24:37 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 11:24:37 -0500 Subject: Sun 1 Computer CRT repair, you help needed for parts - qty 2 of: BSX20 and BFW17A Message-ID: <4F7DC745.2060608@comcast.net> I am putting out a call for help, I am looking to buy qty 2 of the following: BFW17A & BSX20 transistors. Anyone who has 2 of each of these in working condition please let me know, I am interested in trading/buying them from you. Nick From nick.allen at comcast.net Thu Apr 5 13:57:13 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 13:57:13 -0500 Subject: Sun 1 Computer CRT repair, you help needed for parts - qty 2 of: BSX20 and BFW17A In-Reply-To: <4F7DC745.2060608@comcast.net> References: <4F7DC745.2060608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F7DEB09.4070300@comcast.net> Found some on ebay, calling off the alert. On 4/5/2012 11:24 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > I am putting out a call for help, I am looking to buy qty 2 of the > following: > > BFW17A & BSX20 transistors. > > Anyone who has 2 of each of these in working condition please let me > know, I am interested in trading/buying them from you. > > Nick From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 09:26:14 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 10:26:14 -0400 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for the Commodore sx64 >> could be made out of wood fairly simply. > > Rosewood always has a nice look. coffee -> monitor -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 09:34:03 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 10:34:03 -0400 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2012, at 5:53 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for the Commodore sx64 >> could be made out of wood fairly simply. Is there anyone here who is good >> at woodworking who'd be interested in doing some tinkering with me? >> > > Rosewood always has a nice look. Yes, especially if you use genuine Saskatchewan sealskin for cable ties. - (Super) Dave From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Apr 6 09:46:59 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 15:46:59 +0100 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. In-Reply-To: <20120406123023.GA97059@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi, > > I've tried to compile the VIM-7.3 Sources on my freshly > installed VS4000, and entered a pitfall here. Since the C > Compiler was complaining that the virtuel memory is > exhaustet, I'veed the PGFLQUOTA for the user to 104826 and > the VIRTUALPAGCNT SYSGEN Value to 2097152 (max was displayed > as 4194304) I've let run autogen and ebooted. > > Now the system ewfuses to boot: > > %SYSBOOT-W-WS default and quota raised to PHD+MINWSCNT > %SYSBOOT-F-VASOV, system virtual address space exeeded ?06 HLT INST > PC= 00009631 PSL=041F0000 Sorry, I'm a little pressed for time right now, but some pointers. The *real* VMS FAQ is here: http://hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/vmsfaq_contents.html The emergency boot procedure is here: http://hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/vmsfaq_007.html#mgmt5 You probably want B/R5:1 whatever-dis-it-is Then at SYSBOOT something like: SET/STARTUP OPA0: SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0 SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 CONTINUE If that gets you to a DCL prompt ($) then undo whatever you did in SYSGEN and write it out. To get into this mess I assume that you dived into SYSGEN and fiddled? That's generally a bad idea. Instead you are supposed to use AUTOGEN: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/83final/ba322_90045/ch07s24.html HTH, Antonio From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 10:18:44 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 12:18:44 -0300 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea References: Message-ID: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> 3d printing, anyone? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 6:17 AM Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea > > I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for the Commodore > sx64 could be made out of wood fairly simply. Is there anyone here who is > good at woodworking who'd be interested in doing some tinkering with me? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 6 10:32:25 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 16:32:25 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating Message-ID: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> I acquired an RD53 disk recently. I have just been trying it out. The heads were stuck, as usual, but the main thing is that the disk itself will not rotate. The locking mechanism that keeps the heads parked releases on power up but that is all that happens. I have not come across this particular kind of failure before, does anyone have any suggestions for common causes of this kind of failure? Regards Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 10:38:15 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 16:38:15 +0100 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <617C11BF91754EF49A2292EFA8BC207A@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: 06 April 2012 15:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea > > > On Apr 6, 2012, at 5:53 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:17 AM, David Griffith > wrote: > >> > >> I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for > the Commodore sx64 > >> could be made out of wood fairly simply. Is there anyone > here who is good > >> at woodworking who'd be interested in doing some tinkering with me? > >> > > > > Rosewood always has a nice look. > I think a bit of Virginia Round-leaf Birch looks nice with the SX64. Rosewood tends to clash... > Yes, especially if you use genuine Saskatchewan sealskin for > cable ties. > > > - (Super) Dave > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 6 10:46:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 08:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: <1B70474F-CB0D-4AF9-86C1-490CDB7EB760@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Apr 6, 12 06:59:19 am" Message-ID: <201204061546.q36FkoGw13893692@floodgap.com> > I'm working on making a device to convert USB keyboards and mice (through a > hub or KVM, generally) to ADB. What would the demand be like for something > like this? Would anyone else want one (or ten)? I'm not looking to make > any money, just keep production costs down by going in volume. I'd sure use something like that. Optimally it should emulate the media keys available on certain ADB targets (used on PowerBooks, for example) so that the USB eject, volume, brightness, etc., would be translated into the ADB events for that. They're in the HID source for most of the Linux distributions, as Apple in typical fashion don't have them documented. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Famous, adj.: Conspicuously miserable. -- Ambrose Bierce ------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 11:09:55 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 12:09:55 -0400 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> References: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > ? 3d printing, anyone? This would be an excellent application for the technology - just need an STL-format shape for most toolchains. I have a factory cable for my SX64 but some traces on the keyboard flexi-PCB are damaged (due to a rework attempt by the previous owner), so I have a different problem to solve. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 12:09:36 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 14:09:36 -0300 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea References: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> >> 3d printing, anyone? > This would be an excellent application for the technology - just need > an STL-format shape for most toolchains. I don't think it is that hard to make, but both my SX64 doesn't have this piece. > I have a factory cable for my SX64 but some traces on the keyboard > flexi-PCB are damaged (due to a rework attempt by the previous owner), > so I have a different problem to solve. The keyboard SEEMS easy to emulate. I'd have to grab mine and take a look. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle of a huge confusion, where a job was cancelled, I have to move from my apartament until monday and have no money and no job :) I think it will take some time :) From brain at jbrain.com Fri Apr 6 12:24:22 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 12:24:22 -0500 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> References: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F7F26C6.1020200@jbrain.com> On 4/6/2012 12:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > The keyboard SEEMS easy to emulate. I'd have to grab mine and take > a look. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle of a huge confusion, where a > job was cancelled, I have to move from my apartament until monday and > have no money and no job :) I think it will take some time :) C=Key can emulate the KB, though it's PS/2 based. I am working on a USB option. The cable, if that's what we're discussing, is trivial, and I had considered making some OEM-style cables, but the cost for such a small run is a bit steep. My better idea was a "wireless" option. The connector on both the KB and the mobo can be removed and a small additional set of PCBs installed. Use a small ZigBee or something similar for the comms. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 12:25:07 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 13:25:07 -0400 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> References: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> 3d printing, anyone? >> >> This would be an excellent application for the technology - just need >> an STL-format shape for most toolchains. > > ? I don't think it is that hard to make, but both my SX64 doesn't have this > piece. I would recommend a parametric CAD like OpenSCAD or FreeCAD to generate the shape. IIRC, it should be a small number of "cubes" subtracted from other cubes, so that's easy to code up. >> I have a factory cable for my SX64 but some traces on the keyboard >> flexi-PCB are damaged (due to a rework attempt by the previous owner), >> so I have a different problem to solve. > > ? The keyboard SEEMS easy to emulate. I'd have to grab mine and take a look. It's a passive switch matrix, like the C-64 and VIC-20 and PET, and since the ROMs are fundamentally the same as a C-64 (yes there are differences but I don't think they apply to the keyboard scanning routine), one could take a C-64 keyboard and wire up a DB25 adapter. Not portable, but it would work. For a "modern" keyboard, I'd recommend something like Jim Brain's adapter that has a silicon crossbar switch. We've been over that sort of thing on the list before, but the design constraints are that the scan routine runs every clock 'tick' (16.67ms on any C= NTSC machine) and strobes the matrix in a few uS, plus in the case of the C-64, the keyboard shares lines with the joysticks, so any keyboard adapter should play nice with those lines in particular. I don't think many people did in-the-box hacks with the keyboard scan lines, so as long as the IRQ scan routine works and the joysticks work, that would be a successful emulator. There are several techniques to do it; a silicon crossbar switch is a low-effort one. > Unfortunately, I'm in the middle of a huge confusion, where a job was > cancelled, I have to move from my apartament until monday and have no money > and no job :) I think it will take some time :) That's unfortunate. I hope some good news comes your way. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 13:24:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 19:24:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Apr 6, 12 02:17:20 am Message-ID: > > > I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for the Commodore > sx64 could be made out of wood fairly simply. Is there anyone here who is > good at woodworking who'd be interested in doing some tinkering with me? What does it look like? Personally, I'd rather machine it from a block of plastic, I think. Wood is not a material i get on with. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 12:57:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 18:57:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7D914E.930.E9B345@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 12 12:34:22 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Apr 2012 at 19:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Hmm.. If it is an 'urban legend' then its one that's spread through > > many countries, UK, and European TVs all ahve some kind of implosion > > protection too. And thais at a time when we didn't have > > ambulance-chasing lawyers, The data books on CRTs from the 1960s (I > > have a few) make it very clear tht you ahve to fit a separate > > implosion screen if you use CRTs without implosion protection. > > My issue with saying that implosion was a clear danger was that the > sheet of glass isn't present on all 1940s sets. Could the glass Right,,, Over here, no TV sets were actually made suring WW2. After that war, I think all sets had implosion protection (I've certainly enver seen or heard of one that doesn't). I have heard there were quite serious injuries caused to aircraft radar operators in the war if the CRT imploded. Of course looking at a CRT down a viewing hood (about 6" from your face) is rather different from watching a TV at a noraml viewing distance, but I wonder if it was decided based on that to fit protectio nto all TVs. > also have been intended for protection against the soft X-rays > emitted at the CRT face? Remember this was the time when HV > rectifiers and even output tubes were customarily placed in a metal > cage. I think X-rays prodeuced with an accellerating votlkage of 12kV to 15kV are pretty much harmless... Over here, the line ouptu valve (horizontal output tube), booster diode (damper) and EHT rectifier (HV rectifer?) were often in a shield, but it was a fairly light aluminium thing. Not going to be much protection against X-rays. I think it was more an RF shield. It was rarely a complete enclosure anyway. With colour sets, the shunt stabiliser triode was something of an X-ray emitter (it had 25kV from anode to cathode and pased about 1mA). That was often shielded fairly wall. As for the implosion screen, glass or perspex is pretty much X-ray transparent unless it's doped wuth lead or similar. And I've never heard it was. I've not seen any X-ray warnings about running the CRT without the implosion screen (e.g. when servicing the set). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 13:00:53 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 19:00:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: mad music In-Reply-To: <4F7E1183.7050505@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Apr 5, 12 03:41:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/5/2012 12:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I was thinking that perhaps you meant an EMG accoustic gramophone with a > > 4' horn or similar, but then I notices the 'pre-amp'... > > > > I have this Easter Lilly with horn shaped flowers...now how to get > the sound into the plant from a 78? I have this mad vision of a plant-based reproduction system. You know, a rose thorn as the stylus, a piece of flower petal as the diaphragm, hollowed out bambooo as the interconnecting tubes, and a horn made of fern leaves or soemthing... Probably best enjoyed while inhaling the combusion prodcuts of certain other plants... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 6 13:32:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 19:32:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 12 04:32:25 pm Message-ID: > > I acquired an RD53 disk recently. I have just been trying it out. The heads > were stuck, as usual, but the main thing is that the disk itself will not > rotate. The locking mechanism that keeps the heads parked releases on power > up but that is all that happens. > > I have not come across this particular kind of failure before, does anyone > have any suggestions for common causes of this kind of failure? Not specifically for the RD53, but I've had winchesters that don't spin... Firstly, I assume you openeed the HDA to free the heads, Can you try to rotate the disks in the correct direction (obivous if you look at the heads). Just to make sure it's not mechancially jammed. Common causes of problesm with the spindle motor electronics are the power transsitors that drive the motor windings, whcih are easy to test and replace, and the hall-effect sensors inside the motor, which are almost impossible to get to -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 6 14:22:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 12:22:37 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7D914E.930.E9B345@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 12 12:34:22 pm, Message-ID: <4F7EE00D.1510.B0ABC8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2012 at 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > Over here, no TV sets were actually made suring WW2. After that war, I > think all sets had implosion protection (I've certainly enver seen or > heard of one that doesn't). Do you have access to a copy of RCA handbook HB-3 (the "big" tube guide with all sorts of strange stuff)? I don't, but it would be interesting to see what they said on the issue of implosion protection. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 6 14:36:32 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 13:36:32 -0600 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7EE00D.1510.B0ABC8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F7D914E.930.E9B345@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 12 12:34:22 pm, <4F7EE00D.1510.B0ABC8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F7F45C0.3080707@jetnet.ab.ca> >Do you have access to a copy of RCA handbook HB-3 (the "big" tube >guide with all sorts of strange stuff)? I don't, but it would be >interesting to see what they said on the issue of implosion >protection. http://www.pmillett.com/index.html Try above link, they may have something on TV tubes. Ben. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 14:41:47 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 16:41:47 -0300 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea References: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <251501cd142d$54acd870$7100a8c0@tababook> > For a "modern" keyboard, I'd recommend something like Jim Brain's > adapter that has a silicon crossbar switch. We've been over that sort > of thing on the list before, but the design constraints are that the > scan routine runs every clock 'tick' (16.67ms on any C= NTSC machine) > and strobes the matrix in a few uS, plus in the case of the C-64, the > keyboard shares lines with the joysticks, so any keyboard adapter > should play nice with those lines in particular. I don't think many > people did in-the-box hacks with the keyboard scan lines, so as long > as the IRQ scan routine works and the joysticks work, that would be a > successful emulator. There are several techniques to do it; a silicon > crossbar switch is a low-effort one. I still believe I can do that with a fast microcontroller. As soon as I can put my dirty hands into one I'll jack it up to the logic analyser and play with that. >> Unfortunately, I'm in the middle of a huge confusion, where a job was >> cancelled, I have to move from my apartament until monday and have no >> money >> and no job :) I think it will take some time :) > That's unfortunate. I hope some good news comes your way. I'm still alive and somewhat healty. As I alway says, "this is just one more problem, and I'll laugh a lot remembering that someday". I've been around this list for many years, and the few that are more intimate to me remembers I had worse problems :o) I'm a tough guy to let down :) But thanks anyway! :oD From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 6 15:21:58 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 13:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for the Commodore >> sx64 could be made out of wood fairly simply. Is there anyone here who is >> good at woodworking who'd be interested in doing some tinkering with me? > > What does it look like? > > Personally, I'd rather machine it from a block of plastic, I think. Wood > is not a material i get on with. It's an L-shaped block. __ cable goes in here --> | |__ |_____| <-- male DB25 sticks out here I figure it could be made like this: Take a square billet and route out a groove to get the L shape. Slice it into pieces. Machine out a compartment for the DB25 and cut a groove from the cable entry to the compartment. Put the cable and DB25 in the compartment and run the cable where it needs to go, then fill with epoxy and smooth it out. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 6 16:15:22 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 22:15:22 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 12 04:32:25 pm Message-ID: <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 06 April 2012 19:32 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Disk Not Rotating > > > > > I acquired an RD53 disk recently. I have just been trying it out. The > > heads were stuck, as usual, but the main thing is that the disk itself > > will not rotate. The locking mechanism that keeps the heads parked > > releases on power up but that is all that happens. > > > > I have not come across this particular kind of failure before, does > > anyone have any suggestions for common causes of this kind of failure? > > Not specifically for the RD53, but I've had winchesters that don't spin... > > Firstly, I assume you openeed the HDA to free the heads, Can you try to > rotate the disks in the correct direction (obivous if you look at the heads). > Just to make sure it's not mechancially jammed. Yes, I freed the heads, even though RD53s turn the disk if the pads have turned to goo and stuck the arm. The disk turns freely when I turn it by hand. > > Common causes of problesm with the spindle motor electronics are the > power transsitors that drive the motor windings, whcih are easy to test and > replace, and the hall-effect sensors inside the motor, which are almost > impossible to get to > > -tony I have a copy of the fiche for the RD53, it is a bit hard to read but I will see if I can find where these components are. Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 6 16:38:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 14:38:07 -0700 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7F45C0.3080707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4F7D914E.930.E9B345@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F7EE00D.1510.B0ABC8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F7F45C0.3080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F7EFFCF.2290.12CB9B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2012 at 13:36, ben wrote: > http://www.pmillett.com/index.html > Try above link, they may have something on TV tubes. Ben. No, he hasn't scanned that section of HB-3. Shame that--in some ways, it's the most interesting. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 6 17:16:00 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 23:16:00 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 12 04:32:25 pm <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> > > Common causes of problesm with the spindle motor electronics are the > > power transsitors that drive the motor windings, whcih are easy to > > test I don't know how familiar you are with the motor control board on the RD53, but there appear to be a total of 8 largish transistors along the two edges of the board (4 on each side), attached to the casing to dissipate the heat. I assume these are the ones you mean, correct? I will swap the motor control board from another disk first. I know you don't like board swapping, but it seems like a quick way to narrow down where the fault might be. Regards Rob From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Apr 6 17:39:07 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 22:39:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Not specifically for the RD53, but I've had winchesters that don't spin... > > Firstly, I assume you openeed the HDA to free the heads, Can you try to > rotate the disks in the correct direction (obivous if you look at the > heads). Just to make sure it's not mechancially jammed. I've disassembled probably a dozen failed HDAs by now to see how they're made, but the direction the platters are supposed to turn isn't obvious to me... should it be 'into' the ends of the arms that carry the heads or 'away' from them? I always thought it should be 'away', so that the pressure of the circulating air on the arms will lift the heads off the platter, but on one HDA I took apart the heads tore off of the arms when I gently turned the platter in the 'away' direction... Alexey From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Apr 6 18:04:12 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 23:04:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: X-ray safety Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I think X-rays prodeuced with an accellerating votlkage of 12kV to 15kV > are pretty much harmless... > > Over here, the line ouptu valve (horizontal output tube), booster diode > (damper) and EHT rectifier (HV rectifer?) were often in a shield, but it > was a fairly light aluminium thing. Not going to be much protection > against X-rays. I think it was more an RF shield. It was rarely a > complete enclosure anyway. Low energy X-rays absorb very easily. According to this: http://henke.lbl.gov/optical_constants/atten2.html you get 1/e attenuation for 14keV X-rays for every 400 microns of aluminium, so it doesn't take much thickness to block them entirely. At 25keV, you need about 2.2mm aluminium, but just 100 microns of iron for 1/e attenuation. Alexey From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 19:19:48 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 19:19:48 -0500 Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction Message-ID: i put bid in and went to work at 6am and see this when i get back 1100 bucks :O http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=320880958746&si=6c9FJZXW%252BgdjnHCVq%252FpYYQ4M3tI%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBUAA%3ACA%3A3160&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 6 19:55:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 17:55:16 -0700 Subject: X-ray safety Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4F7F2E04.20274.1E138A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2012 at 23:04, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > you get 1/e attenuation for 14keV X-rays for every 400 microns of > aluminium, so it doesn't take much thickness to block them entirely. > > At 25keV, you need about 2.2mm aluminium, but just 100 microns of iron > for 1/e attenuation. I've got to do some reading--I remember that "aluminized" screens started to be included in the 1950s. I wonder if that had to do with X-rays. --Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Apr 6 20:40:38 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 01:40:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: X-ray safety Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7F2E04.20274.1E138A0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F7F2E04.20274.1E138A0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Apr 2012 at 23:04, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> you get 1/e attenuation for 14keV X-rays for every 400 microns of >> aluminium, so it doesn't take much thickness to block them entirely. >> >> At 25keV, you need about 2.2mm aluminium, but just 100 microns of iron >> for 1/e attenuation. > > I've got to do some reading--I remember that "aluminized" screens > started to be included in the 1950s. I wonder if that had to do with > X-rays. I doubt it - aluminium is not the best X-ray absorber. Lead (and leaded glass) is much better. Alexey From slandon110 at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 16:36:02 2012 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 17:36:02 -0400 Subject: Bunches of Dell Precisions for sale w'/ 3.5 Floppies Message-ID: <4F7F61C2.1020302@gmail.com> Hey guys I work for an ewaste company, thought id share what we have in right now 10 Dell Precision 390s 2.4ghz Core 2 Duos 3.5 Floppy Drive- BIOS Supports 5.25 drives as well Dual 160GB SATA HDDs 2GB RAM XP COA on each machine Asking $100 dollars each for them + Shipping or come to my door in Flushing MI and get them Steve From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Apr 6 11:11:18 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 17:11:18 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. Message-ID: <01OE07E7E75I0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >I've tried to compile the VIM-7.3 Sources on my freshly installed VS4000, >and entered a pitfall here. >Since the C Compiler was complaining that the virtuel memory is exhaustet, >I'veed the PGFLQUOTA for the user to 104826 and the VIRTUALPAGCNT SYSGEN >Value to 2097152 (max was displayed as 4194304) >I've let run autogen and ebooted. > VIRTUALPAGECNT is specified in pages and 2097152 pages is 1GB. >Now the system ewfuses to boot: > >%SYSBOOT-W-WS default and quota raised to PHD+MINWSCNT >%SYSBOOT-F-VASOV, system virtual address space exeeded >?06 HLT INST > PC= 00009631 PSL=041F0000 Your VAX probably doesn't have enough page file to back 1GB of virtual memory per process. Perhaps some process is defaulting to grabbing as much as it can and you are running out of pagefile? > >What can I do now to boot this thing again? > I would suggest doing a conversational boot and setting VIRTUALPAGECNT back down to something more reasonable. How to do a conversational boot varies for different types of VAX but usually it is something like: >>> BOOT /R5:1 or >>> BOOT /1 You should end up at a prompt ( SYSBOOT> I think) where you can alter SYSGEN parameters. Enter something like: SET VIRTUALPAGECNT 64000 CONTINUE and hopefully your system should then boot up ok. If you already entered a very large value for VIRTUALPAGECNT into SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT, you should probably change it to something smaller before you run AUTOGEN again. AUTOGEN defaults to shutting down and rebooting the system after it sets the new system parameters. This is fine if everything worked out well but is not so great when things go wrong. A better way to do it is to tell AUTOGEN to exit after setting the new parameters and before shutting down, for example: $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN SAVPARAMS SETPARAMS When this completes, you can review the logs that AUTOGEN produces and then manually shut down and reboot if all went well or fix things and run AUTOGEN again if it didn't. > >PS: I'm new to VMS, don't expect any knowledge, I'm a Unix guy... > Hope I pitched it right... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jonas at otter.se Fri Apr 6 13:26:05 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 20:26:05 +0200 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7F353D.5040809@otter.se> On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 14:30:23 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > > I've tried to compile the VIM-7.3 Sources on my freshly installed VS4000, > and entered a pitfall here. > Since the C Compiler was complaining that the virtuel memory is exhaustet, > I'veed the PGFLQUOTA for the user to 104826 and the VIRTUALPAGCNT SYSGEN > Value to 2097152 (max was displayed as 4194304) > I've let run autogen and ebooted. > > Now the system ewfuses to boot: > > %SYSBOOT-W-WS default and quota raised to PHD+MINWSCNT > %SYSBOOT-F-VASOV, system virtual address space exeeded > ?06 HLT INST > PC= 00009631 PSL=041F0000 From the VMS error messages manual at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6023/6023pro_019.html : VASOVF, system virtual address space limit exceeded *Facility:*SYSBOOT, System Bootstrap Facility *Explanation:*The combination of SYSGEN parameters used to specify various capacities within the operating system have pushed the size of the operating system address space over the limit allowed by the VAX architecture. *User Action:*Reduce one of the parameters (BALSETCNT or VIRTUALPAGECNT (VAX only)) that contribute to the virtual address space size required by the OpenVMS system. By using AUTOGEN to set these values for your system, you avoid selection of parameter combinations that cause system space to overflow its architectural boundaries. To recover, perform a conversational boot (i.e. the boot process will let you modify system parameters to recover from a situation like yours). It is described here: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/aa-pv5mj-tk/00/00/34-con.html Use the "booting with default system parameters" section. You probably then need to reduce VIRTUALPAGECNT below the value you have set (which gives a 2GB virtual address space) because the VAX architecture allows max. 2 GB virtual memory and you are probably just over the limit. The VMS documentation is excellent, you will find it online here: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/ and this is a good manual to start with: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINAL/aa-pv5mj-tk/aa-pv5mj-tk.HTMl (you will find it from the page above by following the link "OpenVMS Operating System" to the left. /Jonas From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 7 04:38:39 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 10:38:39 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 12 04:32:25 pm <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 06 April 2012 23:16 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: RD53 Disk Not Rotating > > > > Common causes of problesm with the spindle motor electronics are the > > > power transsitors that drive the motor windings, whcih are easy to > > > test > > I don't know how familiar you are with the motor control board on the RD53, > but there appear to be a total of 8 largish transistors along the two edges of > the board (4 on each side), attached to the casing to dissipate the heat. > I assume these are the ones you mean, correct? I will swap the motor > control board from another disk first. I know you don't like board swapping, > but it seems like a quick way to narrow down where the fault might be. > > Regards > > Rob Swapping the motor control board did indeed resolve the problem. So now I can look at the faulty board and see if one of the power transistors on there has failed. Thanks Rob From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Apr 7 06:30:02 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 13:30:02 +0200 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. Message-ID: <20120407113002.GA94868@beast.freibergnet.de> Jonas Otter wrote: > On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 14:30:23 +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I've tried to compile the VIM-7.3 Sources on my freshly installed VS4000, > >and entered a pitfall here. > >Since the C Compiler was complaining that the virtuel memory is exhaustet, > >I'veed the PGFLQUOTA for the user to 104826 and the VIRTUALPAGCNT SYSGEN > >Value to 2097152 (max was displayed as 4194304) > >I've let run autogen and ebooted. > > > >Now the system ewfuses to boot: > > > >%SYSBOOT-W-WS default and quota raised to PHD+MINWSCNT > >%SYSBOOT-F-VASOV, system virtual address space exeeded > >?06 HLT INST > > PC= 00009631 PSL=041F0000 > > From the VMS error messages manual at > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6023/6023pro_019.html : > > VASOVF, system virtual address space limit exceeded > > > *Facility:*SYSBOOT, System Bootstrap Facility > *Explanation:*The combination of SYSGEN parameters used to specify > various capacities within the operating system have pushed the size of > the operating system address space over the limit allowed by the VAX > architecture. > *User Action:*Reduce one of the parameters (BALSETCNT or VIRTUALPAGECNT > (VAX only)) that contribute to the virtual address space size required > by the OpenVMS system. By using AUTOGEN to set these values for your > system, you avoid selection of parameter combinations that cause system > space to overflow its architectural boundaries. > > To recover, perform a conversational boot (i.e. the boot process will > let you modify system parameters to recover from a situation like > yours). It is described here: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/aa-pv5mj-tk/00/00/34-con.html > > Use the "booting with default system parameters" section. You probably > then need to reduce VIRTUALPAGECNT below the value you have set (which > gives a 2GB virtual address space) because the VAX architecture allows > max. 2 GB virtual memory and you are probably just over the limit. > > The VMS documentation is excellent, you will find it online here: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/ > > and this is a good manual to start with: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINAL/aa-pv5mj-tk/aa-pv5mj-tk.HTMl > (you will find it from the page above by following the link "OpenVMS > Operating System" to the left. > > /Jonas Ok, THX guys, I've managed to get this thing running again, don't ask me how :-) But my first problem, the cause of the fiddling with the system paramaters persists. This is the VIM73-69 source for VMS: The adequate command for mmk is: mmk /descrip=Make_vms.mms NOTE: Because of empty /auto/config.h (needed for Unix configure) build will fail with very strange messages. Therefore before building, it is recommended to make one clean up, to prepare everything for OpenVMS development. The command is: Buffer: INSTALLVMS.TXT | Write | Insert | Forward $ mms /descrip=Make_vms.mms using DECW/Motif/XPM environment. creating OS_VMS_MOTIF.OPT file. cc /def=("FEAT_BIG","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF","HAVE_XPM" ) /opt/prefix= all /include=([.proto],decw$include:) BLOWFISH.C %CLI-F-TEXT, Compiler abort - virtual memory limits exceeded. %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort %MMS-F-ABORT, For target BLOWFISH.OBJ, CLI returned abort status: %X0000002C. -SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort $ I've googled for the error and found this: http://www.jcameron.com/vms/em12.htm ...that was the beginning of the problem. $ set proc/priv=all $ r authorize UAF> sh holm Username: HOLM Owner: Holm Tiffe Account: UIC: [200,201] ([HOLM]) CLI: DCL Tables: DCLTABLES Default: DKA0:[HOLM] LGICMD: LOGIN Flags: Primary days: Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Secondary days: Sat Sun No access restrictions Expiration: (none) Pwdminimum: 6 Login Fails: 0 Pwdlifetime: 90 00:00 Pwdchange: 3-APR-2012 20:05 Last Login: 7-APR-2012 11:40 (interactive), 7-APR-2012 11:34 (non-interactive) Maxjobs: 0 Fillm: 300 Bytlm: 32768 Maxacctjobs: 0 Shrfillm: 0 Pbytlm: 0 Maxdetach: 0 BIOlm: 40 JTquota: 4096 Prclm: 2 DIOlm: 40 WSdef: 256 Prio: 4 ASTlm: 100 WSquo: 512 Queprio: 0 TQElm: 40 WSextent: 1024 CPU: (none) Enqlm: 200 Pgflquo: 40960 Authorized Privileges: ACNT ALLSPOOL ALTPRI AUDIT BUGCHK BYPASS CMEXEC CMKRNL IMPERSONATDIAGNOSE DOWNGRADE EXQUOTA GROUP GRPNAM GRPPRV IMPORT LOG_IO MOUNT NETMBX OPER PFNMAP PHY_IO PRMCEB PRMGBL PRMMBX PSWAPM READALL SECURITY SETPRV SHARE SHMEM SYSGBL SYSLCK SYSNAM SYSPRV TMPMBX UPGRADE VOLPRO WORLD Default Privileges: NETMBX TMPMBX UAF> So what should I do next to try to compile that VIM source (hopefully w/o to destroying the system again) The VS4000 has 64 Mbytes of Ram, I think that should be sufficient to compile something like this, so it seems to me that some quote values are the problem. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From sgust at ithh.informationstheater.de Sat Apr 7 09:10:54 2012 From: sgust at ithh.informationstheater.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6ren?= Gust) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:10:54 +0200 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: <251501cd142d$54acd870$7100a8c0@tababook> References: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> <251501cd142d$54acd870$7100a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <20120407141054.GA6257@soeren.informationtheater.de> On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 04:41:47PM -0300, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >For a "modern" keyboard, I'd recommend something like Jim Brain's > >adapter that has a silicon crossbar switch. We've been over that sort > >of thing on the list before, but the design constraints are that the > >scan routine runs every clock 'tick' (16.67ms on any C= NTSC machine) > >and strobes the matrix in a few uS, plus in the case of the C-64, the > >keyboard shares lines with the joysticks, so any keyboard adapter > >should play nice with those lines in particular. I don't think many > >people did in-the-box hacks with the keyboard scan lines, so as long > >as the IRQ scan routine works and the joysticks work, that would be a > >successful emulator. There are several techniques to do it; a silicon > >crossbar switch is a low-effort one. > > I still believe I can do that with a fast microcontroller. As > soon as I can put my dirty hands into one I'll jack it up to the > logic analyser and play with that. I tried that about 2 years ago using an ATmega644. It nearly worked, but when the C64 switched from one keyboard row to the next the ATmega644 generated several pin change interrupts. This took too long to process and the C64 got the wrong answer. Maybe one day I will look into faster processors but the ones I know about are quite slow at I/O. The timing of the NMI routine (for checking RUN/STOP when RESTORE is pressed) is even tighter than the normal IRQ. S?ren From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 10:47:27 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 11:47:27 -0400 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: <20120407141054.GA6257@soeren.informationtheater.de> References: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> <251501cd142d$54acd870$7100a8c0@tababook> <20120407141054.GA6257@soeren.informationtheater.de> Message-ID: <2B23C136-0356-4DDB-AB68-1EA60DC6A7E3@gmail.com> On Apr 7, 2012, at 10:10, S?ren Gust wrote: > On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 04:41:47PM -0300, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> I still believe I can do that with a fast microcontroller. As >> soon as I can put my dirty hands into one I'll jack it up to the >> logic analyser and play with that. > > I tried that about 2 years ago using an ATmega644. It nearly worked, but > when the C64 switched from one keyboard row to the next the ATmega644 > generated several pin change interrupts. This took too long to process > and the C64 got the wrong answer. Maybe one day I will look into faster > processors but the ones I know about are quite slow at I/O. The timing > of the NMI routine (for checking RUN/STOP when RESTORE is pressed) is > even tighter than the normal IRQ. You may have better luck with the XMEGA AVR series (I'm using an ATXMEGA32A4 in a current project). They've restructured the I/O and interrupts and added DMA and a curious "event" system which can take a lot of the work off the processor. Definitely worth considering. Failing that, you can get low-power ARM Cortex-M3s for about the same price now. - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 7 11:29:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2012 09:29:20 -0700 Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: <201204061546.q36FkoGw13893692@floodgap.com> References: <201204061546.q36FkoGw13893692@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F806B60.1030103@bitsavers.org> >> I'm working on making a device to convert USB keyboards and mice (through a >> hub or KVM, generally) to ADB. One bit of weirdness you may have trouble mapping to a stock USB keyboard is how the power button is handled in ADB, and also how Apple USB keyboards handle the their power buttons in a non-USB compliant way. From brain at jbrain.com Sat Apr 7 11:45:48 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2012 11:45:48 -0500 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: <2B23C136-0356-4DDB-AB68-1EA60DC6A7E3@gmail.com> References: <235a01cd1408$bc19be30$7100a8c0@tababook> <243401cd1418$10eadb10$7100a8c0@tababook> <251501cd142d$54acd870$7100a8c0@tababook> <20120407141054.GA6257@soeren.informationtheater.de> <2B23C136-0356-4DDB-AB68-1EA60DC6A7E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F806F3C.4020007@jbrain.com> On 4/7/2012 10:47 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 7, 2012, at 10:10, S?ren Gust wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 04:41:47PM -0300, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >>> I still believe I can do that with a fast microcontroller. As >>> soon as I can put my dirty hands into one I'll jack it up to the >>> logic analyser and play with that. >> I tried that about 2 years ago using an ATmega644. It nearly worked, but >> when the C64 switched from one keyboard row to the next the ATmega644 >> generated several pin change interrupts. This took too long to process >> and the C64 got the wrong answer. Maybe one day I will look into faster >> processors but the ones I know about are quite slow at I/O. The timing >> of the NMI routine (for checking RUN/STOP when RESTORE is pressed) is >> even tighter than the normal IRQ. > You may have better luck with the XMEGA AVR series (I'm using an ATXMEGA32A4 in a current project). They've restructured the I/O and interrupts and added DMA and a curious "event" system which can take a lot of the work off the processor. Definitely worth considering. > > Failing that, you can get low-power ARM Cortex-M3s for about the same price now. > > - Dave I'd be interested in any successes, as I was unsuccessful as well. I could try again with the mbed (cortex m3), but I am not hopeful. The worst case scenario is a KB event simultaneous with a joystick event. Filtering out the joystick events was my big issue: * seeing a low event happen on what would normally be the input pins, and trying to decide if that was caused by the joystick or a custom scan routine that uses the input lines as the output lines * Having the joystick or the POT selection lines be accessed while in the middle of servicing a IRQ for the KB lines. I found DIP 8x16 analog crosspoint switches (http://www.futurlec.com/Zarlink/MT8816AEpr.shtml) for a more reasonable price (still high than I'd prefer), if anyone is interested. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From scott.m.18 at atsgate.com Sat Apr 7 12:43:20 2012 From: scott.m.18 at atsgate.com (Scott Mickey) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 11:43:20 -0600 Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction Message-ID: <000d01cd14e5$ec79e450$c56dacf0$@m.18@atsgate.com> I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth more than $1K: eBay auction - "DEC PDP-8 paper tape software, books and core memory card" http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320880958746 At first I thought it was a gag, but then I looked at the number of bidders and the amounts. I know there are a lot of older fellows out there holding on to their PDP and VAX hardware because they are quite fond of it. However, at some point each comes to the conclusion that unless they want to be buried with their computers, the same as the egyptian pharaohs were buried with their gold, they need to find a new home for them. A fellow who was on oxygen and too weak to pick up his computers any longer kindly give me two fully loaded VAXServer 3400's for free. A few years later, from another retired gentleman, I received a VT103 (11/23), VT100, RX02 (dual 8" flop drives), a pair of CDC 9427H "Hawk" drives (which about KILLED me when I lifted each one by myself), dozens of floppies, and a dozen 14" rigid platter disk cartridges. I got all of this for free too. I did pay $100 for a MicroVAX II, with all original tapes and manuals. It has been very educational learning all this old hardware and running the early UNIXes on real hardware (not an emulator). I found all these people and all of this stuff locally on craigslist. So when I see bits of DEC paper tape and core memory going for more than $1000, I am flabbergasted. Completely. Shouldn't this money be staying in your retirement account? (No offense intended). Why is this particular stuff so valuable? Thank you for your time today. Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 6:19 PM Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction > i put bid in and went to work at 6am and see this when i get back > 1100 bucks :O > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma= true&item=320880958746&si=6c9FJZXW%252BgdjnHCVq%252FpYYQ4M3tI%253D&viewitem= &sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBUAA%3ACA%3A3160&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 7 13:48:40 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2012 11:48:40 -0700 Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction In-Reply-To: <000d01cd14e5$ec79e450$c56dacf0$@m.18@atsgate.com> References: <000d01cd14e5$ec79e450$c56dacf0$@m.18@atsgate.com> Message-ID: <4F808C08.8090007@bitsavers.org> On 4/7/12 10:43 AM, Scott Mickey wrote: > I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth > more than $1K: > > I know there are a lot of older fellows out there holding on to their > PDP and VAX hardware because they are quite fond of it. > A fellow who was on oxygen and too weak to pick up his computers any > longer > Shouldn't this money be staying > in your retirement account? (No offense intended) I find your na?vet? refreshing, if offensive. You'll be 'old' some day too. Let's see how you feel when a kid comes along eying your collection. > about KILLED me when I lifted each one by myself Learn about dealing with heavy equipment before you do permanent damage to your back. It's easy to ignore this when you're young and stupid. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 13:42:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 19:42:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: X-ray safety Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F7F2E04.20274.1E138A0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 6, 12 05:55:16 pm Message-ID: > I've got to do some reading--I remember that "aluminized" screens > started to be included in the 1950s. I wonder if that had to do with > X-rays. I don't see how it can do. X=ray emission occurs when the electron is decelerated -- when it hits the screen, basically. Now, you need the electrons to hit the phosphor (in front of the aluminium layer) to excite it, so you actually get a visible glow. That means the X-rays would be produced in front of the aluminium layer... Aluminising had 2 main purposes : 1) Althoguh the electrons could get throug it to hit the phosphor, heavier ions could not. This protected the phospohr from damage, and stopped a problem called 'ion burn' where you got a dark spot or X in the middle fo the screen. Before that, the normal way to prevent ion burn was to have a bent electron gun with a small external magnet to dedirec the electron beam along the CRT axis. THe ions were not much effected by this magnetic field and so they ended up hitting one of the gun electrodes or the wall of the CRT. The magnet assembly was known (at least over here) as the 'ion trap', and if it was not properly postioned you coudl end up with no image on the screen at all. 2) It acts as a light reflector, so most of the light emitted by the phosphor comes out of the front of the CRT. No point in easting it by illumninating the inside of the set :-) I _think_ almost all electromagnetlcally-deflected CRTs used in classic computers, certainly the onses used in DEC termninals, etc, will be aluminised. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 13:45:00 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 19:45:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 7, 12 10:38:39 am Message-ID: > Swapping the motor control board did indeed resolve the problem. So now I Right, so the HEA is fine... Good. I assume you've tried the fualty board again, just in case it was a connector problem. > can look at the faulty board and see if one of the power transistors on > there has failed. Of course it doesn't _have_ to be a power transistor problem, it might be something in the drive electroncis. But the transistors are worth checking first, they are the most likely thigns to fail. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 13:20:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 19:20:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Apr 6, 12 01:21:58 pm Message-ID: > It's an L-shaped block. > __ > cable goes in here --> | |__ > |_____| <-- male DB25 sticks out here > > I figure it could be made like this: Take a square billet and route out a > groove to get the L shape. Slice it into pieces. Machine out a Does it have to be one piece? I could see making it from 2 bits, with a couple of small-diameter screws to hold them together. > compartment for the DB25 and cut a groove from the cable entry to the > compartment. Put the cable and DB25 in the compartment and run the cable > where it needs to go, then fill with epoxy and smooth it out. Is there not enough space to use screws to anchor the DB25 connector? I've had enough problems with broken wires in moulded or potted cable assemblies to not want to add to a reparier's difficulties by making one myself. Alas I don't have an SX64, and it's not the sort of machine I am going to spend much money to get. Which means I am not going to get one... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 13:22:21 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 19:22:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 12 10:15:22 pm Message-ID: > > Not specifically for the RD53, but I've had winchesters that don't spin... > > > > Firstly, I assume you openeed the HDA to free the heads, Can you try to > > rotate the disks in the correct direction (obivous if you look at the > heads). > > Just to make sure it's not mechancially jammed. > > Yes, I freed the heads, even though RD53s turn the disk if the pads have > turned to goo and stuck the arm. The disk turns freely when I turn it by > hand. OK, so it's not a mechanical problem. > > > > > Common causes of problesm with the spindle motor electronics are the > > power transsitors that drive the motor windings, whcih are easy to test > and > > replace, and the hall-effect sensors inside the motor, which are almost > > impossible to get to > > > > -tony > > I have a copy of the fiche for the RD53, it is a bit hard to read but I will > see if I can find where these components are. I looked on bitsavers, but there's no schematic there (I also looked under Micropolis, on the grounds that it's really a Micropolis unit IIRC, but no motor PCB schematics there either). Pity.... Of all else files I'll find one of mine and see if I can quickly work out what is going on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 13:30:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 19:30:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 12 11:16:00 pm Message-ID: > > > > Common causes of problesm with the spindle motor electronics are the > > > power transsitors that drive the motor windings, whcih are easy to > > > test > > I don't know how familiar you are with the motor control board on the RD53, It's been about 10 years since I looked at one, and then I didn't need to repair anything in that area. So I am not very familiar with it to put it mildly. > but there appear to be a total of 8 largish transistors along the two edges > of the board (4 on each side), attached to the casing to dissipate the heat. > I assume these are the ones you mean, correct? I will swap the motor control There are normally 2 sections of such drives that use power transistors. One is the spindle motor driuer, the other is the power amplifier to drive the voice coil positioner. The latter is likely to be a full-H circuit, using 4 transistors (2 NPN and 2 PNP most of the time). Most spindle motors are 3 phase, so expect 3 identical transistors to drive the windings. There could eb anotehr transitor for speed control, or braking, or... I don;t know how hard it would eb to trace the connections from the positioner conenctor or the motor connecotr back to the transistors, but uou might discover which are which that way. > board from another disk first. I know you don't like board swapping, but it > seems like a quick way to narrow down where the fault might be. Well, it might tell you whether the fault is in the electronics (repairable) or in the motor itself (much harder). My worry is that if there's a shorted power transisotr, or a fault that causes oen ot be turned hard on, it could damage the motor windings. Or if there's shorted motor winding, or a fault with the hall effect swtiches that cuases one transistor to be on all the time, then it might damage the tranasistors. But I think that;s unlikely, and it should eb OK to swap the boards. Just don't blame me if it isn't :-) I just hope it's not a problem in the motor. With a very few drives -- the Micropolis 1200 series 98" winchesters), it's possible to dismantle the mtoor without having to pull the HDA apart, but even then you need special tools. With most drives it's impossible to repair winding or hall effect switch trouble without taking the heads and platters out. Good luck! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 13:32:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 19:32:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Apr 6, 12 10:39:07 pm Message-ID: > I've disassembled probably a dozen failed HDAs by now to see how they're > made, but the direction the platters are supposed to turn isn't obvious to > me... should it be 'into' the ends of the arms that carry the heads or > 'away' from them? I always thought it should be 'away', so that the > pressure of the circulating air on the arms will lift the heads off the > platter, but on one HDA I took apart the heads tore off of the arms when I > gently turned the platter in the 'away' direction... > It's nearly always ''away' so the heads are not trying to dig into the platters. I wonder if you had severe stiction so the heads were stuck to the platters, which would mean they'd get ripped off whichever way you turnd it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 7 14:17:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 20:17:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: To Rob Jarrett, sorry about posting this publically Message-ID: Sorry for psoting this publically, but a private reply to Rob got a bounce 'due to unacceptable content'. OK, I probalby wouldn't talk about soldering iron bits in polite compnay, but I cna think of many worse words to use :-) -tony > > Hello Tony, > > > > If you recall I got a Weller TCP probably just like yours. I have a couple > > of PT-AA8 tips, but they seem a bit too big for working with some of the > > boards I need to work with. > > > > What tips would you recommend for working with the H7140 PSU (and the RD53 > > motor control board)? > > Well I use a PT-AA8 for just about everything. There is a finer one > (PT-O8???) which I use for some SMD work (but a lot of that gets done > with the PT-AA8 actually). > > Certainly it should be OK for the PSU and RD53 boards. > > -tony > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 7 14:42:22 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 20:42:22 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 12 04:32:25 pm <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> > Swapping the motor control board did indeed resolve the problem. So now I > can look at the faulty board and see if one of the power transistors on there > has failed. > > Thanks > > Rob I have been desoldering the power transistors and testing them with a DMM using the diode tester. There are eight in all, four test OK as two diodes. However, the other four are marked 8702 TIP125, have a Texas Instruments logo, and do not test as two diodes. Looking at the datasheet here http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/4128.pdf it would seem that it is not they are not simple transistors and so perhaps my measurements are showing them to be working OK. Here is what I measure with the diode tester: 1st - b-e 1.95V e-b 0.82V b-c OC c-b 0.66V c-e 0.58V e-c OC 2nd - b-e 1.91V e-b 0.83V b-c OC c-b 0.68V c-e 0.58V e-c OC 3rd - b-e 1.90V e-b 0.81V b-c OC c-b 0.67V c-e 0.59V e-c OC 4th - b-e 1.75V e-b 0.75V b-c OC c-b 0.56V c-e 0.58V e-c OC It looks like the 4th one is slightly different to the other three, but I have no idea if this is far enough out of tolerance as to cause the motor not to turn. Can anyone tell me if those values look OK, or what else to look at on the motor control board? Thanks Rob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 15:02:35 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 17:02:35 -0300 Subject: Weller thermistor curve. Was:Re: To Rob Jarrett, sorry about posting this publically References: Message-ID: <293501cd14f9$6f34b5b0$7100a8c0@tababook> BTW, about weller irons.. I got an EC2001 soldering iron without the base. I had one of that in the past and it has a transformer, a circuit board and a (E X P E N S I V E) exar IC that controls the temperature. Of course, I can do better and use pwm, a mosfet and a microcontroller to drive this iron, but I know nothing about the thermistor temperature curve. Maybe someone can help? If I could at least know the resistance of the thermistor at 100, 200 and 300 degrees, I'd be more than happy :) And create a new open source project :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 4:17 PM Subject: To Rob Jarrett, sorry about posting this publically > Sorry for psoting this publically, but a private reply to Rob got a > bounce 'due to unacceptable content'. OK, I probalby wouldn't talk about > soldering iron bits in polite compnay, but I cna think of many worse > words to use :-) > > -tony > >> > Hello Tony, >> > >> > If you recall I got a Weller TCP probably just like yours. I have a >> > couple >> > of PT-AA8 tips, but they seem a bit too big for working with some of >> > the >> > boards I need to work with. >> > >> > What tips would you recommend for working with the H7140 PSU (and the >> > RD53 >> > motor control board)? >> >> Well I use a PT-AA8 for just about everything. There is a finer one >> (PT-O8???) which I use for some SMD work (but a lot of that gets done >> with the PT-AA8 actually). >> >> Certainly it should be OK for the PSU and RD53 boards. >> >> -tony >> > > From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Apr 7 15:16:40 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 22:16:40 +0200 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Swapping the motor control board did indeed resolve the problem. So now I > > can look at the faulty board and see if one of the power transistors on > there > > has failed. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > I have been desoldering the power transistors and testing them with a DMM > using the diode tester. There are eight in all, four test OK as two diodes. > However, the other four are marked 8702 TIP125, have a Texas Instruments > logo, and do not test as two diodes. Looking at the datasheet here > http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/4128.pdf it > would seem that it is not they are not simple transistors and so perhaps my > measurements are showing them to be working OK. Here is what I measure with > the diode tester: > > 1st - b-e 1.95V e-b 0.82V b-c OC c-b 0.66V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > 2nd - b-e 1.91V e-b 0.83V b-c OC c-b 0.68V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > 3rd - b-e 1.90V e-b 0.81V b-c OC c-b 0.67V c-e 0.59V e-c OC > 4th - b-e 1.75V e-b 0.75V b-c OC c-b 0.56V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > > It looks like the 4th one is slightly different to the other three, but I > have no idea if this is far enough out of tolerance as to cause the motor > not to turn. > > Can anyone tell me if those values look OK, or what else to look at on the > motor control board? > > Thanks > > Rob > The TIP125 are Darlington Transistors, you can't test them very good with your Diode Tester. Better use a small battery (between4 and 10 Volts) a samll lightbulb from the collector to the negative pole from the battery, connect the emitter to the positive pole and a resistor with approx 10-20Kohms from the basis to the negative pole. The light bulb should light up then, w/o the resistor not. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 7 15:47:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2012 13:47:52 -0700 Subject: X-ray safety Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7F2E04.20274.1E138A0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 6, 12 05:55:16 pm, Message-ID: <4F804588.6925.15BF3FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2012 at 19:42, Tony Duell wrote: > 2) It acts as a light reflector, so most of the light emitted by the > phosphor comes out of the front of the CRT. No point in easting it by > illumninating the inside of the set :-) I think that's probably it. A couple of datasheets out of HB-3 would certainly answer the question, but I'll see if I can find the answer elsewhere. My cherished set of HB-3 disappeared during a move with a bunch of other notable books. :( --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 7 18:20:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2012 19:20:29 -0400 Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction In-Reply-To: <000d01cd14e5$ec79e450$c56dacf0$@m.18@atsgate.com> References: <000d01cd14e5$ec79e450$c56dacf0$@m.18@atsgate.com> Message-ID: <4F80CBBD.70306@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2012 01:43 PM, Scott Mickey wrote: > I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth > more than $1K: > eBay auction - > "DEC PDP-8 paper tape software, books and core memory card" > http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320880958746 > At first I thought it was a gag, but then I looked at the number of > bidders and the amounts. Do you know any (for example) classic car enthusiasts? Do you know any of them who have TRULY rare or historically-significant cars? Ask them how much they'd pay for parts, or for entire vehicles. But, I respectfully submit, if you have to ask the question, you wouldn't understand the answer. > I know there are a lot of older fellows out there holding on to their > PDP and VAX hardware because they are quite fond of it. However, at > some point each comes to the conclusion that unless they want to be > buried with their computers, the same as the egyptian pharaohs were > buried with their gold, they need to find a new home for them. > A fellow who was on oxygen and too weak to pick up his computers any > longer kindly give me two fully loaded VAXServer 3400's for free. > A few years later, from another retired gentleman, I received a > VT103 (11/23), VT100, RX02 (dual 8" flop drives), a pair of > CDC 9427H "Hawk" drives (which about KILLED me when I lifted each > one by myself), dozens of floppies, and a dozen 14" rigid platter > disk cartridges. I got all of this for free too. I did pay $100 > for a MicroVAX II, with all original tapes and manuals. It has been > very educational learning all this old hardware and running the > early UNIXes on real hardware (not an emulator). I found all these > people and all of this stuff locally on craigslist. So when I see > bits of DEC paper tape and core memory going for more than $1000, > I am flabbergasted. Completely. Shouldn't this money be staying > in your retirement account? (No offense intended). Why is this > particular stuff so valuable? "I got this amazing, incredible deal once (or even got lucky enough to get such a deal TWICE!), therefore they're all like that." No, I'm sorry, that's not the way it works. You got lucky. Twice. Don't take it for granted. I know people who would skip meals for the hardware you listed. I wouldn't, but there ARE computer-related things I'd skip meals to acquire, with no hesitation. Just like any REAL classic car person...except the car stuff is a lot more common. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 18:56:15 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 18:56:15 -0500 Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction In-Reply-To: <4f807e0a.c8932a0a.3788.7a19SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4f807e0a.c8932a0a.3788.7a19SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: i put a 500$ bid in on that auction didn't expect this and it proly shot up that high cause i was biding on it from the start quite stronglyv and my bid was based on what i have seen these individual items go for so i am kinda shocked as for freebees i score a free pdp8a my pride n joy of my collection and have been aquiring parts for it ever since like rk05's and controllors rl02's as for you talk about freebees mines not as nice as ur stuff but i did score a pdp8a with all its software manuals drawings asr33 x2 On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Scott Mickey wrote: > I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth > more than $1K: > eBay auction - > "DEC PDP-8 paper tape software, books and core memory card" > http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320880958746 > At first I thought it was a gag, but then I looked at the number of > bidders and the amounts. > I know there are a lot of older fellows out there holding on to their > PDP and VAX hardware because they are quite fond of it. ? However, at > some point each comes to the conclusion that unless they want to be > buried with their computers, the same as the egyptian pharaohs were > buried with their gold, they need to find a new home for them. > A fellow who was on oxygen and too weak to pick up his computers any > longer kindly give me two fully loaded VAXServer 3400's for free. > A few years later, from another retired gentleman, I received a > VT103 (11/23), VT100, RX02 (dual 8" flop drives), a pair of > CDC 9427H "Hawk" drives (which about KILLED me when I lifted each > one by myself), dozens of floppies, and a dozen 14" rigid platter > disk cartridges. ?I got all of this for free too. ?I did pay $100 > for a MicroVAX II, with all original tapes and manuals. ?It has been > very educational learning all this old hardware and running the > early UNIXes on real hardware (not an emulator). ?I found all these > people and all of this stuff locally on craigslist. ? So when I see > bits of DEC paper tape and core memory going for more than $1000, > I am flabbergasted. ?Completely. ? Shouldn't this money be staying > in your retirement account? ?(No offense intended). ?Why is this > particular stuff so valuable? > Thank you for your time today. > > Scott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Stoness" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 6:19 PM > Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction > >> i put bid in and went to work at 6am and see this when i get back >> 1100 bucks :O >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma= > true&item=320880958746&si=6c9FJZXW%252BgdjnHCVq%252FpYYQ4M3tI%253D&viewitem= > &sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBUAA%3ACA%3A3160&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc >> > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 20:17:14 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 21:17:14 -0400 Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: <4F806B60.1030103@bitsavers.org> References: <201204061546.q36FkoGw13893692@floodgap.com> <4F806B60.1030103@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:29, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> I'm working on making a device to convert USB keyboards and mice (through a >>> hub or KVM, generally) to ADB. > > One bit of weirdness you may have trouble mapping to a stock USB keyboard is how the power button is > handled in ADB, and also how Apple USB keyboards handle the their power buttons in a non-USB compliant way. Indeed. I was actually considering just putting a physical button on the converter for the power button (since it's very seldom completely necessary except to produce a hard reset or NMI through key combos). I haven't actually looked into how Apple's keyboards do the power button via USB; do you have a quick pointer I could look at? - Dave From scott.m.18 at atsgate.com Sat Apr 7 22:48:01 2012 From: scott.m.18 at atsgate.com (Scott Mickey) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 21:48:01 -0600 Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction Message-ID: <001f01cd153a$65a4d480$30ee7d80$@m.18@atsgate.com> > On 04/07/2012 01:43 PM, Scott Mickey wrote: >> I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth >> more than $1K: >> eBay auction - >> "DEC PDP-8 paper tape software, books and core memory card" >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320880958746 >> At first I thought it was a gag, but then I looked at the number of >> bidders and the amounts. On Saturday, April 07, 2012 5:20 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Do you know any (for example) classic car enthusiasts? Do you know > any of them who have TRULY rare or historically-significant cars? Ask > them how much they'd pay for parts, or for entire vehicles. But, I > respectfully submit, if you have to ask the question, you wouldn't > understand the answer. > >> I know there are a lot of older fellows out there holding on to their >> PDP and VAX hardware because they are quite fond of it. However, at >> some point each comes to the conclusion that unless they want to be >> buried with their computers, the same as the egyptian pharaohs were >> buried with their gold, they need to find a new home for them. >> A fellow who was on oxygen and too weak to pick up his computers any >> longer kindly give me two fully loaded VAXServer 3400's for free. >> A few years later, from another retired gentleman, I received a >> VT103 (11/23), VT100, RX02 (dual 8" flop drives), a pair of >> CDC 9427H "Hawk" drives (which about KILLED me when I lifted each >> one by myself), dozens of floppies, and a dozen 14" rigid platter >> disk cartridges. I got all of this for free too. I did pay $100 >> for a MicroVAX II, with all original tapes and manuals. It has been >> very educational learning all this old hardware and running the >> early UNIXes on real hardware (not an emulator). I found all these >> people and all of this stuff locally on craigslist. So when I see >> bits of DEC paper tape and core memory going for more than $1000, >> I am flabbergasted. Completely. Shouldn't this money be staying >> in your retirement account? (No offense intended). Why is this >> particular stuff so valuable? > > "I got this amazing, incredible deal once (or even got lucky enough to > get such a deal TWICE!), therefore they're all like that." > > No, I'm sorry, that's not the way it works. You got lucky. Twice. > Don't take it for granted. I know people who would skip meals for the > hardware you listed. I wouldn't, but there ARE computer-related things > I'd skip meals to acquire, with no hesitation. > > Just like any REAL classic car person...except the car stuff is a lot > more common. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > Dave, Thanks for your perspective. Where I live (near Denver), both Maynard Massachusetts and Silicon Valley are a long-long way away, and always have been. I think that is one reason why when older computers go up on craigslist here, I am often the only person to email the seller. I should have stopped at my original question, and left out the info about DEC machines I have acquired, as it completely diverted attention away from what I was asking. I was just shocked by the dollar figure of that eBay auction, and telling my own story is how I reacted. So, back to the question: What were the valuable items in the auction? I don't think it was the books. And I doubt it was the core memory, but I could be wrong. I think it must have been the paper tapes with the original DEC labels. Those are somewhat fragile, and while a computer can sit in a corner for years with little degradation, the same likely cannot be said for the paper tapes. Or maybe people tossed those tapes over the years with little thought, so now they are very rare? But still, $1K, wow! Makes one think twice about tossing anything, doesn't it? Scott From scott.m.18 at atsgate.com Sat Apr 7 22:55:00 2012 From: scott.m.18 at atsgate.com (Scott Mickey) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 21:55:00 -0600 Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction Message-ID: <002001cd153b$5f27a5a0$1d76f0e0$@m.18@atsgate.com> Adrian Stoness wrote: > i was bidding on it from the start quite strongly . . . I switched to JBidwatcher recently, as I have always preferred to bid against the clock, not other people. http://www.jbidwatcher.com/ It is a Java app and will run with Solaris or Linux. Launch with: java -Xmx512m -jar JBidwatcher-2.5.jar Or if you ahve more mainstream hardware, it runs on Windows or OS X. It's free. I have only used it for a couple of auctions so far, but have found it works well. -For what it's worth. And on your free pdp8a, I think it is true that the free stuff is often the best. Maybe just because of the hardware itself, or perhaps also because it was given with an unspoken contract that you are to take care of it. Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 5:56 PM Subject: Re: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction >i put a 500$ bid in on that auction didn't expect this and it proly > shot up that high cause i was biding on it from the start quite > stronglyv and my bid was based on what i have seen these individual > items go for so i am kinda shocked > > as for freebees i score a free pdp8a my pride n joy of my collection > and have been aquiring parts for it ever since like rk05's and > controllors rl02's > > as for you talk about freebees mines not as nice as ur stuff but i did > score a pdp8a with all its software manuals drawings asr33 x2 > On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Scott Mickey wrote: >> I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth >> more than $1K: >> eBay auction - >> "DEC PDP-8 paper tape software, books and core memory card" >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320880958746 >> At first I thought it was a gag, but then I looked at the number of >> bidders and the amounts. >> I know there are a lot of older fellows out there holding on to their >> PDP and VAX hardware because they are quite fond of it. However, at >> some point each comes to the conclusion that unless they want to be >> buried with their computers, the same as the egyptian pharaohs were >> buried with their gold, they need to find a new home for them. >> A fellow who was on oxygen and too weak to pick up his computers any >> longer kindly give me two fully loaded VAXServer 3400's for free. >> A few years later, from another retired gentleman, I received a >> VT103 (11/23), VT100, RX02 (dual 8" flop drives), a pair of >> CDC 9427H "Hawk" drives (which about KILLED me when I lifted each >> one by myself), dozens of floppies, and a dozen 14" rigid platter >> disk cartridges. I got all of this for free too. I did pay $100 >> for a MicroVAX II, with all original tapes and manuals. It has been >> very educational learning all this old hardware and running the >> early UNIXes on real hardware (not an emulator). I found all these >> people and all of this stuff locally on craigslist. So when I see >> bits of DEC paper tape and core memory going for more than $1000, >> I am flabbergasted. Completely. Shouldn't this money be staying >> in your retirement account? (No offense intended). Why is this >> particular stuff so valuable? >> Thank you for your time today. >> >> Scott >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Adrian Stoness" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 6:19 PM >> Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction >> >>> i put bid in and went to work at 6am and see this when i get back >>> 1100 bucks :O >>> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma= >> true&item=320880958746&si=6c9FJZXW%252BgdjnHCVq%252FpYYQ4M3tI%253D&viewitem= >> &sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBUAA%3ACA%3A3160&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc >>> From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 23:22:29 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 23:22:29 -0500 Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction In-Reply-To: <4f810d92.e822320a.5e3b.62a5SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4f810d92.e822320a.5e3b.62a5SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: indeed http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1291/boxus.jpg http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9946/atomcomps.jpg http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg717/scaled.php?server=717&filename=atom005.jpg&res=landing http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg803/scaled.php?server=803&filename=atom004.jpg&res=landing http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg189/scaled.php?server=189&filename=handbooka.jpg&res=landing http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/228/2dec.jpg http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg842/scaled.php?server=842&filename=boxsx.jpg&res=landing On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Scott Mickey wrote: > Adrian Stoness wrote: >> i was bidding on it from the start quite strongly . . . > I switched to JBidwatcher recently, as I have always preferred to > bid against the clock, not other people. > http://www.jbidwatcher.com/ > It is a Java app and will run with Solaris or Linux. ?Launch with: > java -Xmx512m -jar JBidwatcher-2.5.jar > Or if you ahve more mainstream hardware, it runs on Windows or OS X. > It's free. ?I have only used it for a couple of auctions so far, > but have found it works well. ?-For what it's worth. > And on your free pdp8a, I think it is true that the free stuff is > often the best. ?Maybe just because of the hardware itself, or > perhaps also because it was given with an unspoken contract that > you are to take care of it. > Scott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Stoness" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 5:56 PM > Subject: Re: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction > >>i put a 500$ bid in on that auction didn't expect this and it proly >> shot up that high cause i was biding on it from the start quite >> stronglyv and my bid was based on what i have seen these individual >> items go for so i am kinda shocked >> >> as for freebees i score a free pdp8a my pride n joy of my collection >> and have been aquiring parts for it ever since like rk05's and >> controllors rl02's >> >> as for you talk about freebees mines not as nice as ur stuff but i did >> score a pdp8a with all its software manuals drawings asr33 x2 >> On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Scott Mickey > wrote: >>> I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth >>> more than $1K: >>> eBay auction - >>> "DEC PDP-8 paper tape software, books and core memory card" >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320880958746 >>> At first I thought it was a gag, but then I looked at the number of >>> bidders and the amounts. >>> I know there are a lot of older fellows out there holding on to their >>> PDP and VAX hardware because they are quite fond of it. However, at >>> some point each comes to the conclusion that unless they want to be >>> buried with their computers, the same as the egyptian pharaohs were >>> buried with their gold, they need to find a new home for them. >>> A fellow who was on oxygen and too weak to pick up his computers any >>> longer kindly give me two fully loaded VAXServer 3400's for free. >>> A few years later, from another retired gentleman, I received a >>> VT103 (11/23), VT100, RX02 (dual 8" flop drives), a pair of >>> CDC 9427H "Hawk" drives (which about KILLED me when I lifted each >>> one by myself), dozens of floppies, and a dozen 14" rigid platter >>> disk cartridges. I got all of this for free too. I did pay $100 >>> for a MicroVAX II, with all original tapes and manuals. It has been >>> very educational learning all this old hardware and running the >>> early UNIXes on real hardware (not an emulator). I found all these >>> people and all of this stuff locally on craigslist. So when I see >>> bits of DEC paper tape and core memory going for more than $1000, >>> I am flabbergasted. Completely. Shouldn't this money be staying >>> in your retirement account? (No offense intended). Why is this >>> particular stuff so valuable? >>> Thank you for your time today. >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Adrian Stoness" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2012 6:19 PM >>> Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction >>> >>>> i put bid in and went to work at 6am and see this when i get back >>>> 1100 bucks :O >>>> >>> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma= >>> > true&item=320880958746&si=6c9FJZXW%252BgdjnHCVq%252FpYYQ4M3tI%253D&viewitem= >>> &sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AEOIBUAA%3ACA%3A3160&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc >>>> > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Apr 8 01:02:55 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 07:02:55 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7D914E.930.E9B345@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 12 12:34:22 pm Message-ID: <7A11EB63F99141C58D7463CFAF6EDA97@Edicons.local> In the UK there was a minimal television service in the late 1940's. (Started 1937 closed down in 1939 resumed 1948/9) What really kicked it off was the end of rationing and the Queens coronation in 1953. I am old enough to have watched the coronation in Liverpool on TV. Well sort of TV. My Father worked at the Army Anti-Aircraft depot in Daysbrook Lane in Liverpool. The guns were guided by radar and one of the technical types had converted a surplus 9" Radar display to show TV. Sound? They just turned the radio on! For many years I thought our Queen was a sort of orange colour. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 06 April 2012 18:58 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? > > On 5 Apr 2012 at 19:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Hmm.. If it is an 'urban legend' then its one that's spread through > > many countries, UK, and European TVs all ahve some kind of implosion > > protection too. And thais at a time when we didn't have > > ambulance-chasing lawyers, The data books on CRTs from the 1960s (I > > have a few) make it very clear tht you ahve to fit a separate > > implosion screen if you use CRTs without implosion protection. > > My issue with saying that implosion was a clear danger was that the > sheet of glass isn't present on all 1940s sets. Could the glass Right,,, Over here, no TV sets were actually made suring WW2. After that war, I think all sets had implosion protection (I've certainly enver seen or heard of one that doesn't). I have heard there were quite serious injuries caused to aircraft radar operators in the war if the CRT imploded. Of course looking at a CRT down a viewing hood (about 6" from your face) is rather different from watching a TV at a noraml viewing distance, but I wonder if it was decided based on that to fit protectio nto all TVs. > also have been intended for protection against the soft X-rays > emitted at the CRT face? Remember this was the time when HV > rectifiers and even output tubes were customarily placed in a metal > cage. I think X-rays prodeuced with an accellerating votlkage of 12kV to 15kV are pretty much harmless... Over here, the line ouptu valve (horizontal output tube), booster diode (damper) and EHT rectifier (HV rectifer?) were often in a shield, but it was a fairly light aluminium thing. Not going to be much protection against X-rays. I think it was more an RF shield. It was rarely a complete enclosure anyway. With colour sets, the shunt stabiliser triode was something of an X-ray emitter (it had 25kV from anode to cathode and pased about 1mA). That was often shielded fairly wall. As for the implosion screen, glass or perspex is pretty much X-ray transparent unless it's doped wuth lead or similar. And I've never heard it was. I've not seen any X-ray warnings about running the CRT without the implosion screen (e.g. when servicing the set). -tony From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Apr 8 01:05:03 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 07:05:03 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9D1C1A8EDB8C4074B00993E298537CB3@Edicons.local> Yup! dead drive motor or something in its servo loop. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: 06 April 2012 16:32 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating I acquired an RD53 disk recently. I have just been trying it out. The heads were stuck, as usual, but the main thing is that the disk itself will not rotate. The locking mechanism that keeps the heads parked releases on power up but that is all that happens. I have not come across this particular kind of failure before, does anyone have any suggestions for common causes of this kind of failure? Regards Rob From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Apr 8 01:12:46 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 07:12:46 +0100 Subject: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: <4F7B7902.2060703@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5E12620678184FF285F9DC5987900470@Edicons.local> There seems to a wide belief that when implosion occurs on a CRT it's always the front that is breached. Not so, any part of a CRT can fail and its still an implosion. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: 05 April 2012 13:59 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? > Your belief is not a factor, you didn't work for DEC. > > Rod and I both worked for DEC, I also worked with the terminals people > during the Vt220, VT24x and VT320 series. ? DEC actually did interact > with CRT designers to get the exact product they wanted to DEC > specifications. Since the 1970s, maybe even the late 60s, just about all CRTs were semi-custom parts. The tube companies normally would work with a manufacturer to fit the needed specs and tweak certain characteristics at no extra cost. I am sure DEC was do so with the tubes they were buying. > I'm old enough to rember and worked on old tVs that didn't have such > a safety layer. ?It was never an issue. ?For sport my brothers would take > the > tubes (CRT) ?from junkers and haul them out back where they would > stand back 20-30 feet and pelt them with rocks. ?I've observed they > can be quite robust fromt he front but quite fragile from the neck side. I have wondered if the whole CRT safety glass issue was the result of some sort of nationwide scare - the real reasons are probably lost to time. The stories of tubes imploding and sending shards of glass out the front like a shotgun sound fantastic - but it seems that really never happened (I should say "never"). Even with the big 12 inch radar scope tubes from World War 2 with the glass in the face much thinner than those in the late 1940s or 50s tubes - the necks were always the weak part and took all the damage. -- Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 8 02:58:29 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 08:58:29 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <9D1C1A8EDB8C4074B00993E298537CB3@Edicons.local> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <9D1C1A8EDB8C4074B00993E298537CB3@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <006701cd155d$647dcbc0$2d796340$@ntlworld.com> Rod, You may have missed the other emails on this. I have isolated the fault to the motor control board. I have tested the power transistors on the board, although it seems that I have not tested some of them in the correct manner, will try to do that today. There does not appear to be a printset available for this board, although it is small enough that I may be able to draw it out for someone who has the electronics knowledge to direct me what to test. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: 08 April 2012 07:05 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: RD53 Disk Not Rotating > > Yup! dead drive motor or something in its servo loop. > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 06 April 2012 16:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating > > I acquired an RD53 disk recently. I have just been trying it out. The heads > were stuck, as usual, but the main thing is that the disk itself will not rotate. > The locking mechanism that keeps the heads parked releases on power up > but that is all that happens. > > I have not come across this particular kind of failure before, does anyone > have any suggestions for common causes of this kind of failure? > > Regards > > Rob > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 8 04:08:32 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 10:08:32 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <006b01cd1567$2d8d6b70$88a84250$@ntlworld.com> > The TIP125 are Darlington Transistors, you can't test them very good with > your Diode Tester. > Better use a small battery (between4 and 10 Volts) a samll lightbulb from > the collector to the negative pole from the battery, connect the emitter to > the positive pole and a resistor with approx 10-20Kohms from the basis to > the negative pole. The light bulb should light up then, w/o the resistor not. > > Regards, > > Holm Holm, Thanks for the procedure for testing the Darlington transistors. One thing I wanted to check though. You say that the collector should be connected to the negative pole of the battery, I thought that, conventionally at least, collectors were connected to the more positive side and emitters to the negative? I have done a drawing to illustrate what I understood from your email (I used an LED symbol for the light bulb because I did not have a simple bulb symbol). You can view it here: https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=fc758a5a91b91301&resid=FC758A5A91B9 1301!602&parid=FC758A5A91B91301!143&authkey=!AO-F3bI24frPXbg Let me know if that is correct. Thanks Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Apr 8 04:45:08 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 10:45:08 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <006b01cd1567$2d8d6b70$88a84250$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <006b01cd1567$2d8d6b70$88a84250$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F815E24.8030209@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/04/2012 10:08, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Thanks for the procedure for testing the Darlington transistors. One thing I > wanted to check though. You say that the collector should be connected to > the negative pole of the battery, I thought that, conventionally at least, > collectors were connected to the more positive side and emitters to the > negative? It depends not on convention but on polarity, and therefore on whether the transistor is NPN or PNP. NPN is more common in many areas, but TIP125 is PNP. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 8 11:44:37 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 17:44:37 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> > The TIP125 are Darlington Transistors, you can't test them very good with > your Diode Tester. > Better use a small battery (between4 and 10 Volts) a samll lightbulb from > the collector to the negative pole from the battery, connect the emitter to > the positive pole and a resistor with approx 10-20Kohms from the basis to > the negative pole. The light bulb should light up then, w/o the resistor not. > > Regards, > > Holm > I have breadboarded the circuit above and tested the 4 Darlington Transistors. The one that was showing slightly different values to the rest with my diode test turned out to switch on the bulb regardless of whether the resistor was there or not. The others worked as they should. So I will now look to source a replacement. Thanks for the help with the test circuit! Regards Rob From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 12:15:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 13:15:08 -0400 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2012, at 12:44, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > > I have breadboarded the circuit above and tested the 4 Darlington > Transistors. The one that was showing slightly different values to the rest > with my diode test turned out to switch on the bulb regardless of whether > the resistor was there or not. The others worked as they should. So I will > now look to source a replacement. AFAIK, TIP125s are still pretty common (at least in America). I have a bunch in my toolbox. Presumably there is a good European equivalent that is easily sourced in the UK (much like there are easy European equivalents to 2N3904/3906, etc). Just look for pretty generic power Darlingtons and narrow your search down from there with the Hfe and Ic parameters (and perhaps cutoff frequency). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 12:16:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 13:16:18 -0400 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1AEBD5D0-A30B-45A3-BA62-3910C42C868D@gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have breadboarded the circuit above and tested the 4 Darlington > Transistors. The one that was showing slightly different values to the rest > with my diode test turned out to switch on the bulb regardless of whether > the resistor was there or not. The others worked as they should. So I will > now look to source a replacement. Ah, yes, easily sourced from Farnell. Should have looked before I sent the previous email, but I was on my phone: http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/tip125/darlington-transistor-to-220/dp/9804030 - Dave From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Apr 8 13:09:17 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 20:09:17 +0200 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <006b01cd1567$2d8d6b70$88a84250$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <006b01cd1567$2d8d6b70$88a84250$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20120408180917.GC85227@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt wrote: > > The TIP125 are Darlington Transistors, you can't test them very good with > > your Diode Tester. > > Better use a small battery (between4 and 10 Volts) a samll lightbulb from > > the collector to the negative pole from the battery, connect the emitter > to > > the positive pole and a resistor with approx 10-20Kohms from the basis to > > the negative pole. The light bulb should light up then, w/o the resistor > not. > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > > Holm, > > Thanks for the procedure for testing the Darlington transistors. One thing I > wanted to check though. You say that the collector should be connected to > the negative pole of the battery, I thought that, conventionally at least, > collectors were connected to the more positive side and emitters to the > negative? > > I have done a drawing to illustrate what I understood from your email (I > used an LED symbol for the light bulb because I did not have a simple bulb > symbol). You can view it here: > > https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=fc758a5a91b91301&resid=FC758A5A91B9 > 1301!602&parid=FC758A5A91B91301!143&authkey=!AO-F3bI24frPXbg > > Let me know if that is correct. > > Thanks > > Rob You have done the job pretty well in the meantime, so my information that you have the connected LED in the wrong direction on your circuit is proably a little late now. :-) And yes, as Peter already wrote the polarity of the battery is depending of what kind of Transistor you want to test. The TIP125 is PNP so my description was correct. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 8 13:29:19 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 19:29:19 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <20120408180917.GC85227@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <006b01cd1567$2d8d6b70$88a84250$@ntlworld.com> <20120408180917.GC85227@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <00b801cd15b5$846c3400$8d449c00$@ntlworld.com> > > You have done the job pretty well in the meantime, so my information that > you have the connected LED in the wrong direction on your circuit is proably > a little late now. :-) The LED symbol is only there because I don't have a bulb symbol in the CAD tool I am using (or I can't find it anyway), so I was not paying attention to the orientation. I used a filament bulb in the actual circuit. Regards Rob > > And yes, as Peter already wrote the polarity of the battery is depending of > what kind of Transistor you want to test. The TIP125 is PNP so my > description was correct. > > Kind Regards, > > Holm > > > > > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 8 13:40:54 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 12:40:54 -0600 Subject: how do you crack... Homebrew TV In-Reply-To: <7A11EB63F99141C58D7463CFAF6EDA97@Edicons.local> References: <4F7D914E.930.E9B345@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 12 12:34:22 pm <7A11EB63F99141C58D7463CFAF6EDA97@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <4F81DBB6.9090603@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/8/2012 12:02 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > In the UK there was a minimal television service in the late 1940's. > (Started 1937 closed down in 1939 resumed 1948/9) > What really kicked it off was the end of rationing and the Queens coronation > in 1953. I am old enough to have watched the coronation in Liverpool on TV. > Well sort of TV. My Father worked at the Army Anti-Aircraft depot in > Daysbrook Lane in Liverpool. The guns were guided by radar and one of the > technical types had converted a surplus 9" Radar display to show TV. > Sound? They just turned the radio on! > > For many years I thought our Queen was a sort of orange colour. > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > The QUEEN is GREEN. See here. 2" green crt. http://www.freewebs.com/cameramanlink/electronicsprojects.htm Ben. From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Apr 8 14:05:42 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:05:42 +0200 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00b801cd15b5$846c3400$8d449c00$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <006b01cd1567$2d8d6b70$88a84250$@ntlworld.com> <20120408180917.GC85227@beast.freibergnet.de> <00b801cd15b5$846c3400$8d449c00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20120408190542.GF85227@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > You have done the job pretty well in the meantime, so my information that > > you have the connected LED in the wrong direction on your circuit is > proably > > a little late now. :-) > > The LED symbol is only there because I don't have a bulb symbol in the CAD > tool I am using (or I can't find it anyway), so I was not paying attention > to the orientation. I used a filament bulb in the actual circuit. > > Regards > > Rob > Yes, knew that already... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 8 13:13:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 19:13:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 7, 12 08:42:22 pm Message-ID: > > > Swapping the motor control board did indeed resolve the problem. So now I > > can look at the faulty board and see if one of the power transistors on > there > > has failed. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > I have been desoldering the power transistors and testing them with a DMM > using the diode tester. There are eight in all, four test OK as two diodes. > However, the other four are marked 8702 TIP125, have a Texas Instruments IIRC, the TIP125 is an NPN darlington, basically 2 transsitors with one driving the other to get a higher gain )at hte expense of some other parameters). You won't see the normal 2-diode behaviour with those. > logo, and do not test as two diodes. Looking at the datasheet here > http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/4128.pdf it > would seem that it is not they are not simple transistors and so perhaps my > measurements are showing them to be working OK. Here is what I measure with > the diode tester: > > 1st - b-e 1.95V e-b 0.82V b-c OC c-b 0.66V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > 2nd - b-e 1.91V e-b 0.83V b-c OC c-b 0.68V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > 3rd - b-e 1.90V e-b 0.81V b-c OC c-b 0.67V c-e 0.59V e-c OC > 4th - b-e 1.75V e-b 0.75V b-c OC c-b 0.56V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > > It looks like the 4th one is slightly different to the other three, but I > have no idea if this is far enough out of tolerance as to cause the motor > not to turn. It doens;'t look wildly out to me. I assuem you don;'t ahve a transistor curve tracer (it's not a common piece of test gear, most of the time hobyists get them becuase somebody gives one away....). You might try a simple swtichign trst using this sort of circuit : 1k +---\/\/------+------------------------o +ve | | \ | \ (X) 12V, 2W (or so)_ o | bulb | ----- 12V PSU | | c | +----------|b | Device under test | e | ----- | +------------------------o -vve You can build ti o na solderless breadboard, there's nothing critical. For the 12V pSU, use a bench supply if you have one, or the 12V output of a PC PSU 9which you know to be working!). The switch could even be a couple of wirses to toch together, the lamp should light only when the switch is closed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 8 13:16:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 19:16:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Weller thermistor curve. Was:Re: To Rob Jarrett, In-Reply-To: <293501cd14f9$6f34b5b0$7100a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 7, 12 05:02:35 pm Message-ID: > > > BTW, about weller irons.. > > I got an EC2001 soldering iron without the base. I had one of that in > the past and it has a transformer, a circuit board and a (E X P E N S I V E) > exar IC that controls the temperature. Of course, I can do better and use > pwm, a mosfet and a microcontroller to drive this iron, but I know nothing > about the thermistor temperature curve. Maybe someone can help? If I could > at least know the resistance of the thermistor at 100, 200 and 300 degrees, > I'd be more than happy :) And create a new open source project :) Do you have an form of thermometer (e.g. a thermocouple-based one) that works over that temperature range? If so,. I'd try feeding the element fro man adjustale PCU, measure the tip tempearture with the themocouple, and also measure the thermistor resistance. Shouldn't tale too long to plot the chracteristic curve... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 8 13:29:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 19:29:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: X-ray safety Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: <4F804588.6925.15BF3FD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 7, 12 01:47:52 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Apr 2012 at 19:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 2) It acts as a light reflector, so most of the light emitted by the > > phosphor comes out of the front of the CRT. No point in wasting it by > > illumninating the inside of the set :-) > > I think that's probably it. A couple of datasheets out of HB-3 would No, the primary reason for aluminising the screen was certainly to prevent -ve ions (from residual gas in the CRT) from damaging the phosphor .This was a real problem at one time. The ions were not deflectred much by the magnetic defleciton system (they would be by electrostatic defleciton plates IIRC), and you ended up with a dark spot at the centre of the screen. I guess few people remember fitting and adjusting the ion trap magnet on a monochorm TV set... I've found an old Mazda databook. This has nothing to do wit hte car company, it states that 'Mazda Cathode Ray Tubes are manufacutred in Great Britain for the British Thomson-Houston Co, Ltd, London and Rugby, and distributed by The Edison Swan Electric Co Ltd' Anywy, this book contains data sheets on 3 CRTs, CRM71, CRM91 and CRM 121. They are very similar apart from the screen diameter which is 7", 9" and 12" respectively. These are circular-screen magnetically defelcted CRTs for TV applications, and if what I think is a date _is_ a date, the data sheets were printed in 1942 (which does suprise me a bit). All 3 data sheets contain a paragrpah simular to the following (obviously the type number changes) : 'The handling of the CRM71 tube in transportation, storage and use requires car, because the tube may be broken if subjected to sudden jars or excessive strains or, if abused, the tube may be weakened so that it may subsequently implode owing to the pressure on the tube due to the vacuum within. The equipment in which the cathode ray tube is utilised should be designed to prevent the bulb from being damaged and to protect the user from the effects of an implosion if the bulb is damaged or has been weakened in prior handling. The screen of the tube should be covered with a plate of safety glass, and googles worn when handling the tube' Now, thoughts.. .THis is round screen CRT with a noticeably convex screen (commonly known a sa 'goldfish bowl' over here ;-)). SUch a screen is stronger for a given glass thichness than a flatter one, so the glass could be a lot thinner than on a more modern CRT. THis may mean it's more liable to fracture into sharp fracgments that fly. Thre is not integral implosion protection on this CRT. And the nrequirement for having implosion protection was noted quite early on (if my interpetation that this was printed in 1942 is correct). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 8 13:43:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 19:43:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: pdp8 tapes trays core memory ebay auction In-Reply-To: <4F80CBBD.70306@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 7, 12 07:20:29 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/07/2012 01:43 PM, Scott Mickey wrote: > > I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth > > more than $1K: > > eBay auction - > > "DEC PDP-8 paper tape software, books and core memory card" > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320880958746 > > At first I thought it was a gag, but then I looked at the number of > > bidders and the amounts. > > Do you know any (for example) classic car enthusiasts? Do you know > any of them who have TRULY rare or historically-significant cars? Ask > them how much they'd pay for parts, or for entire vehicles. But, I > respectfully submit, if you have to ask the question, you wouldn't > understand the answer. Or why will some people pay many thousands of pounds/dollars for a square inch or so of paper with printers ink on it. More commonly known as a postage stamp. At least with classic cars and classic computers you can do something with them other than look at them. I, too, prefered it when these machiens were essentially worthless and when yo'd be given PDP8s, PDP11s, HPs, etc. But that's not the case any more. And I have to live with it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 8 13:47:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 19:47:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <006701cd155d$647dcbc0$2d796340$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 8, 12 08:58:29 am Message-ID: > > Rod, > > You may have missed the other emails on this. I have isolated the fault to > the motor control board. I assume you swapped the boards indivdually, so you know the fault is o nthe motor driver PCB, not the main logic board. > > I have tested the power transistors on the board, although it seems that I > have not tested some of them in the correct manner, will try to do that > today. There does not appear to be a printset available for this board, > although it is small enough that I may be able to draw it out for someone > who has the electronics knowledge to direct me what to test. When I ahve some spare time I'll dig out an RD53 and see if I can roughly figure out what is going on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 8 13:50:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 19:50:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <006b01cd1567$2d8d6b70$88a84250$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 8, 12 10:08:32 am Message-ID: > > > The TIP125 are Darlington Transistors, you can't test them very good with > > your Diode Tester. > > Better use a small battery (between4 and 10 Volts) a samll lightbulb from > > the collector to the negative pole from the battery, connect the emitter > to > > the positive pole and a resistor with approx 10-20Kohms from the basis to > > the negative pole. The light bulb should light up then, w/o the resistor > not. > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > > Holm, > > Thanks for the procedure for testing the Darlington transistors. One thing I > wanted to check though. You say that the collector should be connected to > the negative pole of the battery, I thought that, conventionally at least, > collectors were connected to the more positive side and emitters to the > negative? It depends on the ploarity of the transsitor. With an NPN transsitor (or darlington), the colelctor is +ve wrt the emitter. With a PNP transistor it's -ve. I'd guessed the TIP125 was NPN, sounds like I got it wrong. If it's PNP, the collector should be -ve (and in the circuit I gave i nan earlier reply, you need to swap the PSU connections round). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 8 14:00:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 20:00:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm Message-ID: > AFAIK, TIP125s are still pretty common (at least in America). I have > a bunch in my toolbox. Presumably there is a good European equivalent > that is easily sourced in the UK (much like there are easy European > equivalents to 2N3904/3906, etc). Just look for pretty generic power > Darlingtons and narrow your search down from there with the Hfe and Ic > parameters (and perhaps cutoff frequency). FWIW, most ocmmon US (and Japanese) transistors are not hard to get here. Certianly 2N3904s and 2N3906s are very common (I tend to buy they 50 at a time..). I don't think you'll have any probkesm getting a TIP125 here eiter. If you can't find oen, let me know and I'll see if I can find a supplier. -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 8 15:17:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 16:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204082017.QAA26478@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I have been desoldering the power transistors and testing them with >> a DMM using the diode tester. There are eight in all, four test OK >> as two diodes. However, the other four are marked 8702 TIP125, > IIRC, the TIP125 is an NPN darlington, basically 2 transsitors with > one driving the other to get a higher gain )at hte expense of some > other parameters). You won't see the normal 2-diode behaviour with > those. Why not? Except for higher forward drop on the B-E pins (because it's actually two B-E junctions in series), I don't see any reason you wouldn't see basically two-diode behaviour from a Darlington pair. >> 1st - b-e 1.95V e-b 0.82V b-c OC c-b 0.66V c-e 0.58V e-c OC >> 2nd - b-e 1.91V e-b 0.83V b-c OC c-b 0.68V c-e 0.58V e-c OC >> 3rd - b-e 1.90V e-b 0.81V b-c OC c-b 0.67V c-e 0.59V e-c OC >> 4th - b-e 1.75V e-b 0.75V b-c OC c-b 0.56V c-e 0.58V e-c OC This is..strange. Combined with the above, I'm led to suspect that what you people are calling a Darlington pair is not what I thought it was. I thought a Darlington pair was two bipolar transistors of the same kind (both NPN or both PNP) in a single package, connected internally like so: --------------- | | | -----+---|----c | | | | | --- | | | | c| | | b----|--|b | | | | | e| | | | --- --- | | | | c| | | --|b | | | | e| | | --- | | | | | ---|----e | | --------------- As far as I can see this should show open circuit when reverse biased on the b-e or b-c pins, and shouldn't conduct either way on the e-c pins with the b open. Do you people mean something else, or am I missing something, or what? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 8 15:34:25 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:34:25 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm Message-ID: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 08 April 2012 20:00 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Disk Not Rotating > > > AFAIK, TIP125s are still pretty common (at least in America). I have > > a bunch in my toolbox. Presumably there is a good European equivalent > > that is easily sourced in the UK (much like there are easy European > > equivalents to 2N3904/3906, etc). Just look for pretty generic power > > Darlingtons and narrow your search down from there with the Hfe and Ic > > parameters (and perhaps cutoff frequency). > > FWIW, most ocmmon US (and Japanese) transistors are not hard to get > here. > Certianly 2N3904s and 2N3906s are very common (I tend to buy they 50 at a > time..). I don't think you'll have any probkesm getting a TIP125 here eiter. If > you can't find oen, let me know and I'll see if I can find a supplier. > > -tony I hope I haven't made a mistake here. Rather than go to Farnell where I need a minimum order amount, I looked on Ebay and found someone with some TIP125s there. I had assumed they were all the same and just chose this one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TIP125-Transistor-/290672643190?pt=LH_DefaultDomai n_3&hash=item43ad708c76. I haven't spent a lot, so if I have bought the wrong thing it is no big deal to go and find the right ones instead. On the original the only other marking (apart from a TI logo) is "8702", but my web searches don't seem to indicate that this means anything. The Ebay one has no other markings to help me distinguish anything either. So, I don't know if I have bought the wrong thing or not. Are they all likely to be similar enough not to matter? Or should I be looking for a closer match? Not that I know what a closer match would be. Regards Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Apr 8 15:34:48 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 13:34:48 -0700 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <201204082017.QAA26478@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204082017.QAA26478@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1B790579-12F8-4066-A149-6CFFD44DBF8F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 8, at 1:17 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> I have been desoldering the power transistors and testing them with >>> a DMM using the diode tester. There are eight in all, four test OK >>> as two diodes. However, the other four are marked 8702 TIP125, >> IIRC, the TIP125 is an NPN darlington, basically 2 transsitors with >> one driving the other to get a higher gain )at hte expense of some >> other parameters). You won't see the normal 2-diode behaviour with >> those. > > Why not? Except for higher forward drop on the B-E pins (because it's > actually two B-E junctions in series), I don't see any reason you > wouldn't see basically two-diode behaviour from a Darlington pair. > >>> 1st - b-e 1.95V e-b 0.82V b-c OC c-b 0.66V c-e 0.58V e-c OC >>> 2nd - b-e 1.91V e-b 0.83V b-c OC c-b 0.68V c-e 0.58V e-c OC >>> 3rd - b-e 1.90V e-b 0.81V b-c OC c-b 0.67V c-e 0.59V e-c OC >>> 4th - b-e 1.75V e-b 0.75V b-c OC c-b 0.56V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > > This is..strange. Combined with the above, I'm led to suspect that > what you people are calling a Darlington pair is not what I thought it > was. I thought a Darlington pair was two bipolar transistors of the > same kind (both NPN or both PNP) in a single package, connected > internally like so: > > --------------- > | | > | -----+---|----c > | | | | > | --- | | > | | c| | | > b----|--|b | | | > | | e| | | > | --- --- | > | | | c| | > | --|b | | > | | e| | > | --- | > | | | > | ---|----e > | | > --------------- > > As far as I can see this should show open circuit when reverse biased > on the b-e or b-c pins, and shouldn't conduct either way on the e-c > pins with the b open. > > Do you people mean something else, or am I missing something, or what? As shown in the datasheet that somebody provided earlier in the thread, it's not a pure darlington pair - it has built-in pull-down resistors across the internal BE junctions and a reverse-voltage- clamp diode across CE. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Apr 8 16:22:24 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 14:22:24 -0700 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 8, at 1:34 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I hope I haven't made a mistake here. Rather than go to Farnell > where I need > a minimum order amount, I looked on Ebay and found someone with > some TIP125s > there. > I had assumed they were all the same and just chose this one: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TIP125-Transistor-/290672643190? > pt=LH_DefaultDomai > n_3&hash=item43ad708c76. > > I haven't spent a lot, so if I have bought the wrong thing it is no > big deal > to go and find the right ones instead. On the original the only other > marking (apart from a TI logo) is "8702", but my web searches don't > seem to > indicate that this means anything. The Ebay one has no other > markings to > help me distinguish anything either. So, I don't know if I have > bought the > wrong thing or not. > > Are they all likely to be similar enough not to matter? Or should I be > looking for a closer match? Not that I know what a closer match > would be. Looks fine, the TIP125 is what matters. The 8702 on yours is most likely a date code. Many semiconductors and other components have a date code stamped on them in addition to the part number and manufacturer id/logo. One of the most common forms of date code (particularly for North American manufacturers) is yyww where yy=LSDs of year, ww=week of year, so 8702 would indicate the device was manufactured in the 2nd week of 1987. Look at the ICs in your drive, they may have similar codes for around the same period. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Apr 8 16:15:59 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:15:59 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F82000F.3020908@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/04/2012 21:34, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I hope I haven't made a mistake here. Rather than go to Farnell where I need > a minimum order amount, I looked on Ebay and found someone with some TIP125s > there. > I had assumed they were all the same and just chose this one: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TIP125-Transistor-/290672643190?pt=LH_DefaultDomai > n_3&hash=item43ad708c76. > > I haven't spent a lot, so if I have bought the wrong thing it is no big deal > to go and find the right ones instead. On the original the only other > marking (apart from a TI logo) is "8702", but my web searches don't seem to > indicate that this means anything. The Ebay one has no other markings to > help me distinguish anything either. So, I don't know if I have bought the > wrong thing or not. > > Are they all likely to be similar enough not to matter? Or should I be > looking for a closer match? Not that I know what a closer match would be. No, a TIP125 is a TIP125. Any manufacturer's version will meet the same minimum specs, or else they'd call it something else. I'd guess the 8702 on the Texas ones is a date code (week 2 1987). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Apr 8 16:47:53 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 14:47:53 -0700 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 8, at 1:34 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I hope I haven't made a mistake here. Rather than go to Farnell > where I need > a minimum order amount, I looked on Ebay and found someone with > some TIP125s > there. > I had assumed they were all the same and just chose this one: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TIP125-Transistor-/290672643190? > pt=LH_DefaultDomai > n_3&hash=item43ad708c76. > > I haven't spent a lot, so if I have bought the wrong thing it is no > big deal > to go and find the right ones instead. On the original the only other > marking (apart from a TI logo) is "8702", but my web searches don't > seem to > indicate that this means anything. The Ebay one has no other > markings to > help me distinguish anything either. So, I don't know if I have > bought the > wrong thing or not. > > Are they all likely to be similar enough not to matter? Or should I be > looking for a closer match? Not that I know what a closer match > would be. BTW, the logo on the ebay one is STMicroelectronics (major Euro manufacturer, formerly SGS-Thomson), the 0001 is probably a date code, and STM has a manufacturing facility in Morocco. Datasheet from STM: http://www.st.com/internet/analog/product/65312.jsp From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 17:16:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 18:16:30 -0400 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <4F82000F.3020908@dunnington.plus.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82000F.3020908@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5636B832-3EB1-427C-9456-C8AF32D6FD9B@gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2012, at 5:15 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 08/04/2012 21:34, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> Are they all likely to be similar enough not to matter? Or should I be >> looking for a closer match? Not that I know what a closer match would be. > > No, a TIP125 is a TIP125. Any manufacturer's version will meet the same minimum specs, or else they'd call it something else. I'd guess the 8702 on the Texas ones is a date code (week 2 1987). The only modification I'd make to the above statement is that some of the earlier TIP devices (I'm specifically thinking of TIP41/42, but there may be others) have revisions attached that do affect their parameters. In the case of the TIP41/42 (NPN and PNP devices with similar parameters for complementary pairs), TIP41A has a max Vce of 60V while TIP41C has 100V (and, as you'd expect, TIP41B has 80V). The max Ic is the same (6A) across the family. But yes, what you're seeing looks like a date code. - Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 8 18:17:33 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 00:17:33 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: 08 April 2012 22:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RD53 Disk Not Rotating > > On 2012 Apr 8, at 1:34 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I hope I haven't made a mistake here. Rather than go to Farnell where > > I need a minimum order amount, I looked on Ebay and found someone > with > > some TIP125s there. > > I had assumed they were all the same and just chose this one: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TIP125-Transistor-/290672643190? > > pt=LH_DefaultDomai > > n_3&hash=item43ad708c76. > > > > I haven't spent a lot, so if I have bought the wrong thing it is no > > big deal to go and find the right ones instead. On the original the > > only other marking (apart from a TI logo) is "8702", but my web > > searches don't seem to indicate that this means anything. The Ebay one > > has no other markings to help me distinguish anything either. So, I > > don't know if I have bought the wrong thing or not. > > > > Are they all likely to be similar enough not to matter? Or should I be > > looking for a closer match? Not that I know what a closer match would > > be. > > Looks fine, the TIP125 is what matters. > > The 8702 on yours is most likely a date code. Many semiconductors and > other components have a date code stamped on them in addition to the part > number and manufacturer id/logo. One of the most common forms of date > code (particularly for North American manufacturers) is yyww where > yy=LSDs of year, ww=week of year, so 8702 would indicate the device was > manufactured in the 2nd week of 1987. Look at the ICs in your drive, they > may have similar codes for around the same period. Indeed, the other power transistors are all 87xx, so it must be date code as you say. Regards Rob From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 18:50:22 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 16:50:22 -0700 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? Nothing is coming up in google http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html From drb at msu.edu Sun Apr 8 19:01:18 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 20:01:18 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 08 Apr 2012 16:50:22 PDT.) <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> References: <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20120409000118.577DBA5829F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? A modem rack. De From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 8 19:02:28 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 20:02:28 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2012 07:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm > posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? Nothing > is coming up in google > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! At first I thought the Vadic box was a T1 channel bank, but it has 16 channels, not 24. Stat mux maybe? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From starbase89 at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 19:04:51 2012 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 20:04:51 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> Message-ID: googled "16 channel vadic" and this came up: http://www.arcelect.com/racal.htm Apparently some type of modem On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm > posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? Nothing is > coming up in google > > http://losangeles.craigslist.**org/wst/sys/2947330407.html > -- Joseph Giliberti Director of Buildings, Grounds and Facilities InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 19:06:41 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 17:06:41 -0700 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <20120409000118.577DBA5829F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <20120409000118.577DBA5829F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F822811.9060904@gmail.com> On 4/8/2012 5:01 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? > > A modem rack. > > De That was quick. Makes sense. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 8 19:15:01 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 20:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/08/2012 07:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm >> posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? Nothing >> is coming up in google >> >> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html > > Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! > > At first I thought the Vadic box was a T1 channel bank, but it has 16 > channels, not 24. Stat mux maybe? That was my guess as well, with included modem (TXD, RXD, CTS, etc). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 19:45:10 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 19:45:10 -0500 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: rk05F odd looking one no? On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 04/08/2012 07:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> >>> There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm >>> posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? Nothing >>> is coming up in google >>> >>> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html >> >> >> ?Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! >> >> ?At first I thought the Vadic box was a T1 channel bank, but it has 16 >> channels, not 24. ?Stat mux maybe? > > > ? That was my guess as well, with included modem (TXD, RXD, CTS, etc). > > > Mike Loewen ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology ? ? ? ?http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 8 19:55:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 20:55:21 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2012 08:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > rk05F odd looking one no? "F" for "Fixed". It's twice the capacity of a standard RK05, but the disk pack is permanently installed. I heard years ago that they did this due to the insertion/removal misalignment vs. the tighter tolerances required for the higher density. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 8 19:56:04 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 17:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > > AFAIK, TIP125s are still pretty common (at least in America). I have a I ordered 40 of them on Friday from Jameco for .35c each. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 20:03:40 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 20:03:40 -0500 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: o interesting On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/08/2012 08:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> rk05F odd looking one no? > > ?"F" for "Fixed". ?It's twice the capacity of a standard RK05, but the > disk pack is permanently installed. ?I heard years ago that they did > this due to the insertion/removal misalignment vs. the tighter > tolerances required for the higher density. > > ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 8 20:13:11 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 18:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 8, 12 08:02:28 pm" Message-ID: <201204090113.q391DBXF14287034@floodgap.com> > > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm > > posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? Nothing > > is coming up in google > > > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html > > Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! Sure is. I was very tempted, but I am determined to keep my computer hobby to only two bedrooms, and I still need room for my HP 9000 to come out and play. (Plus I don't know the first thing about restoring PDP-11's. -__-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- "Closing Time" From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 8 20:18:42 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:18:42 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Yes, pretty nice. If memory serves they show up as two separate RK05 drives to the controller. I have one of these, the only one I've ever seen in person. It's high on my get-it-running list. It's still down in FL but will be coming up in the next truck trip. (which I hope will be the last!) I do like RK05s. Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. -Dave On 04/08/2012 09:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > o interesting > > On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/08/2012 08:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> rk05F odd looking one no? >> >> "F" for "Fixed". It's twice the capacity of a standard RK05, but the >> disk pack is permanently installed. I heard years ago that they did >> this due to the insertion/removal misalignment vs. the tighter >> tolerances required for the higher density. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 20:31:20 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 18:31:20 -0700 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Also here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/160780416107 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 8 20:32:53 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 19:32:53 -0600 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F823C45.9050204@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/8/2012 6:56 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > >> >> AFAIK, TIP125s are still pretty common (at least in America). I have a > > I ordered 40 of them on Friday from Jameco for .35c each. > > g. Yes, and the stock is now depleted, prices will go up. What I can't figure out is why they need to make so many kinds of *NEW* transistors? Ben. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 20:34:43 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 20:34:43 -0500 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: kool! the disk packs are indeed kinda neat now to just find some pdp8 rk05 packs and some cables and the temrinator thingy's for my controlor card set for the 8 On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Yes, pretty nice. ?If memory serves they show up as two separate RK05 > drives to the controller. ?I have one of these, the only one I've ever > seen in person. ?It's high on my get-it-running list. ?It's still down > in FL but will be coming up in the next truck trip. (which I hope will > be the last!) > > ?I do like RK05s. ?Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. > > ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave > > On 04/08/2012 09:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> o interesting >> >> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 04/08/2012 08:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> rk05F odd looking one no? >>> >>> ?"F" for "Fixed". ?It's twice the capacity of a standard RK05, but the >>> disk pack is permanently installed. ?I heard years ago that they did >>> this due to the insertion/removal misalignment vs. the tighter >>> tolerances required for the higher density. >>> >>> ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 20:47:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:47:51 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Yes, pretty nice. ?If memory serves they show up as two separate RK05 > drives to the controller. They do - that's why it has two unit numbers on it. >?I have one of these, the only one I've ever > seen in person. ?It's high on my get-it-running list. I saw one in 1984. It was damaged beyond what appeared unreasonable to repair at the time, but today, I'd probably give it a shot. I did get the RK11-C and an RK05J. I haven't tried to restore the RK11-C but I've used the RK05J with an RKV11D. > ?I do like RK05s. ?Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. They are easier to repair than many other drives. I've found the lamp in the positioner a common point of failure - easy to spot, too - power up the drive and look through the door - if you don't see the light, the lamp is probably blown. Head crashes are not uncommon, but the heads are pretty robust. I haven't done it myself, but I've read tales from other members about vigorous cleaning of heads after crash events. I've also heard of blower motor insulation failures that have been known to be somewhat catastrophic, so if you are powering up a long-stored drive, inspect the motor and the air path. I'm sure there are other tips in the list archives (like always mounting a scratch monkey ;-). -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 8 20:49:13 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 18:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <4F823C45.9050204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> <4F823C45.9050204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, ben wrote: > On 4/8/2012 6:56 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: >> >>> >>> AFAIK, TIP125s are still pretty common (at least in America). I have a >> >> I ordered 40 of them on Friday from Jameco for .35c each. >> >> g. > > Yes, and the stock is now depleted, prices will go up. Nonsense. They have stock of the .39c parts. Min qty is 1. The .35c part will be in stock in 3 days and the min. for THOSE is 10. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 20:52:07 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:52:07 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 9:34 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > kool! > the disk packs are indeed kinda neat now to just find some pdp8 rk05 > packs and some cables and the temrinator thingy's for my controlor > card set for the 8 The terminator card is not impossible to find or reproduce (it's the same as used with the RKV11D 16-bit Qbus controller). 16-sector packs are somewhat rare in my experience. I'm personally willing to swap several 12-sector packs for one 16-sector pack. There are also discussions on the list archives about how to try to make 12-sector packs appear to be 16-sector packs (modified drives with a microcontroller generating sector pulses, reworked disc pack hubs, and so on). I don't know that any of the proposals have been successfully created. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 8 20:57:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:57:56 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F824224.5030107@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2012 09:47 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I saw one in 1984. It was damaged beyond what appeared unreasonable > to repair at the time, but today, I'd probably give it a shot. I did > get the RK11-C and an RK05J. I haven't tried to restore the RK11-C > but I've used the RK05J with an RKV11D. Niiiiice! >> I do like RK05s. Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. > > They are easier to repair than many other drives. I've found the lamp > in the positioner a common point of failure - easy to spot, too - > power up the drive and look through the door - if you don't see the > light, the lamp is probably blown. Head crashes are not uncommon, but > the heads are pretty robust. I haven't done it myself, but I've read > tales from other members about vigorous cleaning of heads after crash > events. I've also heard of blower motor insulation failures that have > been known to be somewhat catastrophic, so if you are powering up a > long-stored drive, inspect the motor and the air path. I'm sure there > are other tips in the list archives (like always mounting a scratch > monkey ;-). Agreed on all points. One other failure mode I've seen is the decomposition of the white plastic used to make the air ducts in the bottom of the drive. I restored one a few years ago in which that plastic crumbled at the slightest touch. That was a real shame. I repaired the drive using parts from a donor drive whose chassis was badly warped due to having been dropped. The other thing that usually needs replacing (Adrian you'll want to look into this) is the NiCd battery pack that's used to retract the head positioner. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 8 21:29:37 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 19:29:37 -0700 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <4F823C45.9050204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> <4F823C45.9050204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F824991.9040603@brouhaha.com> ben wrote about the TIP125: > Yes, and the stock is now depleted, prices will go up. I very much doubt that. They're still being made by the bazillions. > What I can't figure out is why they need to make so many kinds of > *NEW* transistors? Because there are so many applications with different requirements. However, I think there may actually be fewer distinct types of transistors on the market than there were in the late 1970s. Manufacturing processes have been tightened up enough that fewer performance bins are necessary for a given die type. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 21:25:47 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:25:47 -0500 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: whats a scratch monkey? has 2 coming in a rack freight that i will start playing with soon :) http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/joncohen1/dec_boards131.jpg On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> ?Yes, pretty nice. ?If memory serves they show up as two separate RK05 >> drives to the controller. > > They do - that's why it has two unit numbers on it. > >>?I have one of these, the only one I've ever >> seen in person. ?It's high on my get-it-running list. > > I saw one in 1984. ?It was damaged beyond what appeared unreasonable > to repair at the time, but today, I'd probably give it a shot. ?I did > get the RK11-C and an RK05J. ?I haven't tried to restore the RK11-C > but I've used the RK05J with an RKV11D. > >> ?I do like RK05s. ?Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. > > They are easier to repair than many other drives. ?I've found the lamp > in the positioner a common point of failure - easy to spot, too - > power up the drive and look through the door - if you don't see the > light, the lamp is probably blown. ?Head crashes are not uncommon, but > the heads are pretty robust. ?I haven't done it myself, but I've read > tales from other members about vigorous cleaning of heads after crash > events. ?I've also heard of blower motor insulation failures that have > been known to be somewhat catastrophic, so if you are powering up a > long-stored drive, inspect the motor and the air path. ?I'm sure there > are other tips in the list archives (like always mounting a scratch > monkey ;-). > > -ethan > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 21:30:30 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:30:30 -0500 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F824224.5030107@neurotica.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> <4F824224.5030107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: is taking notes On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/08/2012 09:47 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I saw one in 1984. ?It was damaged beyond what appeared unreasonable >> to repair at the time, but today, I'd probably give it a shot. ?I did >> get the RK11-C and an RK05J. ?I haven't tried to restore the RK11-C >> but I've used the RK05J with an RKV11D. > > ?Niiiiice! > >>> ?I do like RK05s. ?Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. >> >> They are easier to repair than many other drives. ?I've found the lamp >> in the positioner a common point of failure - easy to spot, too - >> power up the drive and look through the door - if you don't see the >> light, the lamp is probably blown. ?Head crashes are not uncommon, but >> the heads are pretty robust. ?I haven't done it myself, but I've read >> tales from other members about vigorous cleaning of heads after crash >> events. ?I've also heard of blower motor insulation failures that have >> been known to be somewhat catastrophic, so if you are powering up a >> long-stored drive, inspect the motor and the air path. ?I'm sure there >> are other tips in the list archives (like always mounting a scratch >> monkey ;-). > > ?Agreed on all points. ?One other failure mode I've seen is the > decomposition of the white plastic used to make the air ducts in the > bottom of the drive. ?I restored one a few years ago in which that > plastic crumbled at the slightest touch. ?That was a real shame. ?I > repaired the drive using parts from a donor drive whose chassis was > badly warped due to having been dropped. > > ?The other thing that usually needs replacing (Adrian you'll want to > look into this) is the NiCd battery pack that's used to retract the head > positioner. > > ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 8 21:49:59 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 20:49:59 -0600 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F824E57.9030209@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/8/2012 8:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > whats a scratch monkey? Punch line of a BAD joke. Ben. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 21:50:38 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 22:50:38 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > whats a scratch monkey? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_monkey -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 21:57:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:57:39 -0500 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F824E57.9030209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> <4F824E57.9030209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: doh! On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 9:49 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/8/2012 8:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >> whats a scratch monkey? > > > Punch line of a BAD joke. > Ben. > > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 00:09:04 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 02:09:04 -0300 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> <4F823C45.9050204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <045b01cd160f$0b872860$6400a8c0@tababook> > Yes, and the stock is now depleted, prices will go up. I have some hundreds at hand. Gold price. Make your offer :) > What I can't figure out is why they need to make so many kinds of *NEW* > transistors? Because transistor designers must earn a living :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 00:10:42 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 02:10:42 -0300 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> <4F823C45.9050204@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F824991.9040603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <046801cd160f$39e853a0$6400a8c0@tababook> > ben wrote about the TIP125: >> Yes, and the stock is now depleted, prices will go up. > I very much doubt that. They're still being made by the bazillions. Er...it was a joke :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 00:11:57 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 02:11:57 -0300 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> <4F824E57.9030209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <047501cd160f$68a90400$6400a8c0@tababook> Duh! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 11:57 PM Subject: Re: What is this Vadic thing ? > doh! > > On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 9:49 PM, ben wrote: >> On 4/8/2012 8:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>> whats a scratch monkey? >> >> >> Punch line of a BAD joke. >> Ben. >> >> >> From jws at jwsss.com Mon Apr 9 01:00:35 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 23:00:35 -0700 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 8, 12 01:15:08 pm <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F827B03.2030803@jwsss.com> On 4/8/2012 4:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm > posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? > Nothing is coming up in google > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html > > From the ebay auction http://s1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/richbeta/?action=view¤t=IMG_3847.jpg is the back of the modem unit. far left, power supply next 9600 or 1200 baud modem, most likely one he pulled for another photo. another 9600 or1200 baud then what appears to be an autodialer if I recall. On the right are 4 more modems. I did a system to drain all the Chucky Cheese's in the US in the early 80's (70) total, by outdialing into each one. The way I could dial was to select a line and dial it, then drop off once the call progress indicated a connection. It was able to run 5 modems with my software before overwhelming the Microdata Reality I was draining into, but the physical hardware could have run all the rest of the slots full of modems with the autodial rig. I have several of these racks around, when the 38400 56k and up quadrature modems started to be popular in the 90's this stuff was all scrapped. Jim From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 9 01:10:00 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 23:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 1591 roms Message-ID: Does anyone here know anything about the ROMs to the Commodore 1591 floppy drive? The ROM from this prototype was supposedly dumped and sent on to ftp.funet.fi, but it's not there. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From useddec at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 02:18:02 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 02:18:02 -0500 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F824224.5030107@neurotica.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> <4F824224.5030107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Yes, the piece coming out of the abs filter used to be made out or a materal that would crumble after a nomber of years. It was replaced with a newer one with a much longer life cycle. I think it has the same part number. And I agree, they are a dream to work on. Paul On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/08/2012 09:47 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I saw one in 1984. ?It was damaged beyond what appeared unreasonable >> to repair at the time, but today, I'd probably give it a shot. ?I did >> get the RK11-C and an RK05J. ?I haven't tried to restore the RK11-C >> but I've used the RK05J with an RKV11D. > > ?Niiiiice! > >>> ?I do like RK05s. ?Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. >> >> They are easier to repair than many other drives. ?I've found the lamp >> in the positioner a common point of failure - easy to spot, too - >> power up the drive and look through the door - if you don't see the >> light, the lamp is probably blown. ?Head crashes are not uncommon, but >> the heads are pretty robust. ?I haven't done it myself, but I've read >> tales from other members about vigorous cleaning of heads after crash >> events. ?I've also heard of blower motor insulation failures that have >> been known to be somewhat catastrophic, so if you are powering up a >> long-stored drive, inspect the motor and the air path. ?I'm sure there >> are other tips in the list archives (like always mounting a scratch >> monkey ;-). > > ?Agreed on all points. ?One other failure mode I've seen is the > decomposition of the white plastic used to make the air ducts in the > bottom of the drive. ?I restored one a few years ago in which that > plastic crumbled at the slightest touch. ?That was a real shame. ?I > repaired the drive using parts from a donor drive whose chassis was > badly warped due to having been dropped. > > ?The other thing that usually needs replacing (Adrian you'll want to > look into this) is the NiCd battery pack that's used to retract the head > positioner. > > ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 02:29:01 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 02:29:01 -0500 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> <4F824224.5030107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Just looked at the pics, andlots of pack boxes in and on the cabnets. Looks like a BA11-FE expansion box in lower left cab. I've worked on numerous RK05-F's, abd they show up as 2 logical drives. you can convert to/ from an F. the inner parts are just the linear posistioner and the heads. the door can be rigged and any pack that matches your controller(12 or 16 sector) can be reformatted. It's pretty simple if you have the parts. Paul On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:18 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Yes, the piece coming out of the abs filter used to be made out or a > materal that would crumble after a nomber of years. It was replaced > with a newer one with a much longer life cycle. I think it has the > same part number. > > And I agree, they are a dream to work on. > > Paul > > On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/08/2012 09:47 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I saw one in 1984. ?It was damaged beyond what appeared unreasonable >>> to repair at the time, but today, I'd probably give it a shot. ?I did >>> get the RK11-C and an RK05J. ?I haven't tried to restore the RK11-C >>> but I've used the RK05J with an RKV11D. >> >> ?Niiiiice! >> >>>> ?I do like RK05s. ?Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. >>> >>> They are easier to repair than many other drives. ?I've found the lamp >>> in the positioner a common point of failure - easy to spot, too - >>> power up the drive and look through the door - if you don't see the >>> light, the lamp is probably blown. ?Head crashes are not uncommon, but >>> the heads are pretty robust. ?I haven't done it myself, but I've read >>> tales from other members about vigorous cleaning of heads after crash >>> events. ?I've also heard of blower motor insulation failures that have >>> been known to be somewhat catastrophic, so if you are powering up a >>> long-stored drive, inspect the motor and the air path. ?I'm sure there >>> are other tips in the list archives (like always mounting a scratch >>> monkey ;-). >> >> ?Agreed on all points. ?One other failure mode I've seen is the >> decomposition of the white plastic used to make the air ducts in the >> bottom of the drive. ?I restored one a few years ago in which that >> plastic crumbled at the slightest touch. ?That was a real shame. ?I >> repaired the drive using parts from a donor drive whose chassis was >> badly warped due to having been dropped. >> >> ?The other thing that usually needs replacing (Adrian you'll want to >> look into this) is the NiCd battery pack that's used to retract the head >> positioner. >> >> ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 9 04:29:29 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 11:29:29 +0200 (CEST) Subject: X-ray safety Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I guess few people remember fitting and adjusting the ion trap magnet on > a monochorm TV set... Don't need to remember, I have two such sets (both much older than me) ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 9 04:33:39 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 11:33:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW, most ocmmon US (and Japanese) transistors are not hard to get here. > Certianly 2N3904s and 2N3906s are very common (I tend to buy they 50 at a > time..). I don't think you'll have any probkesm getting a TIP125 here > eiter. If you can't find oen, let me know and I'll see if I can find a > supplier. Now that's very simple. Reichelt, TIP 125 STM, cost 34 Euro-cent. Was that hard? I think not. Christian From sander.reiche at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 04:43:32 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 11:43:32 +0200 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> FWIW, most ocmmon US (and Japanese) transistors are not hard to get here. >> Certianly 2N3904s and 2N3906s are very common (I tend to buy they 50 at a >> time..). I don't think you'll have any probkesm getting a TIP125 here >> eiter. If you can't find oen, let me know and I'll see if I can find a >> supplier. > > > Now that's very simple. Reichelt, TIP 125 STM, cost 34 Euro-cent. Was that > hard? I think not. I like the name of the joint. re, Sander Reiche From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Apr 9 09:39:14 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:39:14 +0100 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. In-Reply-To: <20120407113002.GA94868@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <23FDF113CDD849BBA8AAB4C3AC60F2B3@ANTONIOPC> Holm Tiffe [holm at freibergnet.de] wrote: > Ok, THX guys, > I've managed to get this thing running again, don't ask me how :-) Glad to see it all works again. > I've googled for the error and found this: > > http://www.jcameron.com/vms/em12.htm > > ...that was the beginning of the problem. > > So what should I do next to try to compile that VIM source > (hopefully w/o to destroying the system again) > > The VS4000 has 64 Mbytes of Ram, I think that should be > sufficient to compile something like this, so it seems to me > that some quote values are the problem. This is the C manual (for at least one of the C compilers ...) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/commercial/c/docs/ig_bvbv_contents.html#toc_ch apter_3 I'ms sure that it used to me specific than this: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/commercial/c/docs/ig_bvbv_001.html#user_quotas Try doubling WSDEF, WSQUOTA and PGFLQUOTA for the account. Log in again and compile again. At worst you might make yourself unable to login (but you could fix that via the SYSTEM account). However, even that's pretty unlikely as most things are capped even if you go wild. Antonio From mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net Sun Apr 8 13:21:25 2012 From: mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net (mls) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 13:21:25 -0500 Subject: HP-UX 10.20 B4474FA Netstation Software Codeword? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31706E35-4FAC-401F-B479-205131EFE08E@comcast.net> Glen, I cannot find codewords to the software on the application disks (I looked through a couple of boxes), but I did come across a 3 CD set of dedicated Nestation software disks (I have no idea if these would help but I think they may): Netstation Software release 9.1 July 1998 : Multihost CD ROM Netstation Software for HP Envisex, Entria and 700RX - B3651-10117 (Ver 7.1, supported hosts: HP, Sun, IBM) Netstation Software for HP EnvisexII, EntriaII - B3651-10121 (Ver 9.1, supported hosts: HP, Sun, IBM) Netstation Software for HP Netstations - B3651-10122 (Ver 7.1/9.1, supported hosts: HP-UX 11.0) Let me know if any or all of these would be of help. -Chris On Mar 29, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I recently acquired an HP Envizex II Netstation X-Terminal which I > would like to try out. I have a base HP-UX 10.20 OS running on an HP > B160L and I have an original set of HP-UX 10.20 install media CDs, but > apparently a Codeword is necessary to install the B4474FA HP > Netstation Software from the CD. I don't have any Codewords for this > set of install media CDs. > > Is there any way to obtain a Codeword to install the Netstation > Software from the HP-UX 10.20 install media that I have? > > http://www.hp.com/softwarereleases/releases-media2/media/3710366.htm > > HP9000 Series 9000/700 > HP-UX Application Software > CD Part Number - B3782-10366 > > B4474FA, HP Netstation Software, Codeword Required: Yes, Size: 115622777 > > -Glen From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Apr 9 11:18:55 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 18:18:55 +0200 Subject: RK11-C (was Re: What is this Vadic thing ?) In-Reply-To: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 3:47 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: What is this Vadic thing ? > On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Dave McGuire > wrote: >> >> Yes, pretty nice. If memory serves they show up as two separate RK05 >> drives to the controller. > > They do - that's why it has two unit numbers on it. > >> I have one of these, the only one I've ever >> seen in person. It's high on my get-it-running list. I have two RK05-F's, maybe even 3, but can not check at this moment. > I saw one in 1984. It was damaged beyond what appeared > unreasonable to repair at the time, but today, I'd probably give it a > shot. > I did get the RK11-C and an RK05J. I haven't tried to restore the > RK11-C but I've used the RK05J with an RKV11D. I only *remember* several years ago one RK11-C on eBay. Always regretted not having made a shot at getting it. I would love to get an RK11-C, working or not working, and trade for a working RK11-D. Ethan, do you have any on-line pictures of the RK11-C? >> I do like RK05s. Actually I very much like most of DEC's big drives. Yeah, me too :-) And I like the typical smell of a just powered-up RK05. > -ethan - Henk. From rachael at telefisk.org Mon Apr 9 13:18:34 2012 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 20:18:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away Message-ID: And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gaming-pioneer-jack-tramiel-dies-at-age-83/ -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 9 13:29:46 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 11:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: from Jacob Dahl Pind at "Apr 9, 12 08:18:34 pm" Message-ID: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> > And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven. > > http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gaming-pioneer-jack-tramiel-dies-at-age-83/ That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these days. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- PowerPC inside! ------------------------------------------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 12:48:00 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 18:48:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <201204082017.QAA26478@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 8, 12 04:17:40 pm Message-ID: > > other parameters). You won't see the normal 2-diode behaviour with > > those. > > Why not? Except for higher forward drop on the B-E pins (because it's > actually two B-E junctions in series), I don't see any reason you > wouldn't see basically two-diode behaviour from a Darlington pair. OK, you do see the expected 2-diode behaviour (apart from the double-sized b-e voltage drop) if the thing is working correctly. Problem is that it can still show that behaviour if it's failed. Suppose the b-c junction of the second transistor is open. C-E wil lbe open both ways round, B-C will be open oen way and one diode drop (that of the B-C juntion of the first transistor) the otehr, B-E will be open oen way and 2 drops the other way. But that is not going to be a useful power device... > > >> 1st - b-e 1.95V e-b 0.82V b-c OC c-b 0.66V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > >> 2nd - b-e 1.91V e-b 0.83V b-c OC c-b 0.68V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > >> 3rd - b-e 1.90V e-b 0.81V b-c OC c-b 0.67V c-e 0.59V e-c OC > >> 4th - b-e 1.75V e-b 0.75V b-c OC c-b 0.56V c-e 0.58V e-c OC > > This is..strange. Combined with the above, I'm led to suspect that > what you people are calling a Darlington pair is not what I thought it > was. I thought a Darlington pair was two bipolar transistors of the > same kind (both NPN or both PNP) in a single package, connected > internally like so: > > --------------- > | | > | -----+---|----c > | | | | > | --- | | > | | c| | | > b----|--|b | | | > | | e| | | > | --- --- | > | | | c| | > | --|b | | > | | e| | > | --- | > | | | > | ---|----e > | | > --------------- Basically, that's what is is. Sometimes there's a resistor between the b-e of the second transistor inside the package. And sometimes (as here) there'sn inernal diode between C-E which is reverse-biased in normal use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 12:52:53 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 18:52:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 8, 12 09:34:25 pm Message-ID: > I hope I haven't made a mistake here. Rather than go to Farnell where I need > a minimum order amount, I looked on Ebay and found someone with some TIP125s > there. > I had assumed they were all the same and just chose this one: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TIP125-Transistor-/290672643190?pt=LH_DefaultDomai > n_3&hash=item43ad708c76. >From what I can see, those are the right parts. In gneral, if diffenrent manufacturers use the same part numberm the devices meet the same publsihed specs. A TIP125 from TI is the same as oen from SGS-Thomson. In a few cases, if you go outside the pnblished specs, the devices will behave differently, this can be a problem in things like line output stages (CRT horizotnal output stages), but I don;t think this will be a problem with a motor driver The '8702' number is almost certainly a date code. It doesn't matter. Sometimes you'll find suffix letters on transistor numbers. These either indicate the approximate current gain (for example the BC109C). or the maximum voltage it'll withstate (TIP41C) or perhaps soemthing else. That's when you need to look up the whole number in a databook to find out just what the versions are. But I don;t think that's a problem here either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 13:03:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 19:03:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 8, 12 08:55:21 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/08/2012 08:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > rk05F odd looking one no? > > "F" for "Fixed". It's twice the capacity of a standard RK05, but the > disk pack is permanently installed. I heard years ago that they did > this due to the insertion/removal misalignment vs. the tighter > tolerances required for the higher density. I think that';s right. I have one. It's very much the same as a normal RK05J, but without the door,pack holder. The disk pack is fiotted when the drive is built and held down by a couple of tension srings. It still ahs only one disk and 2 heads, but has twice as many cylinders as a noraml RK05. The fact that the back is not normally removed emans that any slight run-out in the spindle is not important, since the disk will be in the same position for formatting, writing and reading. I beleive if you do remvoe the pack for any reason, you are supposed to do a low level format when you put it back in. Much of the internals are the smae as the RK05J. The heads are obviously different, you can recognise RK05F heds by the DEC convention that the high density version of somethign is blue (think of RL02 .vs. RL01 packs). The sockets on the end of the head cables are blue on RK05F heads. I assume the positioner graticule is differnet too, but I've never investigated that. IIRC the electorncis is the later RK05J stuff, but with link changes. It appears to the controller as 2 consecutive drives, each of the 'normal' RK05 geometry. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 13:05:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 19:05:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <201204090113.q391DBXF14287034@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 8, 12 06:13:11 pm Message-ID: > > > > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm > > > posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? Nothing > > > is coming up in google > > > > > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html > > > > Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! > > Sure is. I was very tempted, but I am determined to keep my computer hobby > to only two bedrooms, and I still need room for my HP 9000 to come out and Err, before long it'll be 'limited to only 2 houses' :-) Which HP99000 do you have? > play. (Plus I don't know the first thing about restoring PDP-11's. -__-) That is the perfect reason to get one. I suspect many of use knew little/nothing about resotring a particular machine before it ended up in our workshop. That certianly applies to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 9 13:21:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 19:21:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: X-ray safety Re: how do you crack (open) a Rainbow mono monitor? In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Apr 9, 12 11:29:29 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > I guess few people remember fitting and adjusting the ion trap magnet on > > a monochorm TV set... > > Don't need to remember, I have two such sets (both much older than me) ;-) I see... I doubt there are many such sets still in use over here. They'd be Systam A (405 line) which means they'd need a converter to use with Systme I signals (or the outptu of a digital TV receiver). Oh well... Incidentalyl, when I looked at those CRT data sheets yesterday, the same book contains recomended circuits for 'high defintion TV timebases'. That's 405 line 'high defintion' of coruse :-) -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 14:00:31 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:00:31 -0400 Subject: RK11-C (was Re: What is this Vadic thing ?) In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> ?I did get the RK11-C and an RK05J. ?I haven't tried to restore the >> RK11-C but I've used the RK05J with an RKV11D. > > I only *remember* several years ago one RK11-C on eBay. > Always regretted not having made a shot at getting it. > I would love to get an RK11-C, working or not working, and trade for a > working RK11-D. Ethan, do you have any on-line pictures of the RK11-C? I do not have any pictures, but I should be shuffling storage this summer and I will be taking *lots* of pictures then. I got it as a discard from a company I later went to work for. They in turn got it from a university surplus auction. Neither they nor I have tried to power it up. I'm sure it needs a lot of cleaning and testing. I have experience with cleaning DEC backplanes (manila folders and isopropanol) and testing M-series modules. I do happen to have a set of the reproduction KM11s (http://www.shiresoft.com/products/km11/KM11%20Replica.html) that I'm sure will come in handy. Once I do have the time and space to restore it, I was planning on attaching it to my PDP-11/20 once I restore _it_. That one, as I've mentioned in the past, was literally pulled from a dumpster after it was parted out and gutted. I do not think I have 100% of the parts, but I do have three cabinets (CPU + two memory boxes), the DD11 backplanes, and a large box of loose modules. That will be more of a challenge to get running again. No less than two of the core modules were souvenired before I got my hands on the remainder, so I'll be lucky to get 16K working. > Yeah, me too :-) > And I like the typical smell of a just powered-up RK05. I recognize that smell well. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 14:04:10 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:04:10 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I have one. It's very much the same as a normal RK05J, but without the > door,pack holder. The disk pack is fiotted when the drive is built and > held down by a couple of tension srings. It still ahs only one disk and 2 > heads, but has twice as many cylinders as a noraml RK05. The fact that > the back is not normally removed emans that any slight run-out in the > spindle is not important, since the disk will be in the same position for > formatting, writing and reading. Yep. IIRC, you are also expected to shim the pack in the hub to minimize runout and/or wobble. > I beleive if you do remvoe the pack for any reason, you are supposed to > do a low level format when you put it back in. Yes. I believe that is true as well. > Much of the internals are the smae as the RK05J. The heads are obviously > different, you can recognise RK05F heds by the DEC convention that the > high density version of somethign is blue (think of RL02 .vs. RL01 > packs). The sockets on the end of the head cables are blue on RK05F > heads. Yep. Different heads. > I assume the positioner graticule is differnet too, but I've never > investigated that. IIRC the electorncis is the later RK05J stuff, but > with link changes. I don't think the positioner graticule is different, but there are jumpers to set on the cards for J vs F if I'm remembering correctly. If that's so, then the number of ticks/slits is not likely a 1-1 map of tracks. It must be a higher density that's divided by selectable factors. -ethan From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 9 14:06:51 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 15:06:51 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon >> heaven. >> >> http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gaming-pioneer-jack-tramiel-dies-at-age-83/ > >> > That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these > days. It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine and accessories. He was famous for demanding prototypes be available for CES, accepting orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product. Keith From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 14:20:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:20:22 -0400 Subject: RK11-C (was Re: What is this Vadic thing ?) In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <795B99DA-362C-4314-A84C-506E07781FC4@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > And I like the typical smell of a just powered-up RK05. Smells like... victory. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 14:29:58 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:29:58 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8D75F9F2-39CE-44E0-A1D3-9F088F9B7214@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2012, at 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven. >> >> http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gaming-pioneer-jack-tramiel-dies-at-age-83/ > > That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these days. Indeed. Slightly amusing that he should pass within a few days of Jim Marshall, though. :-) - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 14:35:11 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:35:11 -0400 Subject: RK11-C (was Re: What is this Vadic thing ?) In-Reply-To: <795B99DA-362C-4314-A84C-506E07781FC4@gmail.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> <795B99DA-362C-4314-A84C-506E07781FC4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 3:20 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 9, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> And I like the typical smell of a just powered-up RK05. > > Smells like... victory. Unless something bad just happened... then it smells like burning. (thankfully, I've not had that experience with an RK05, but there was this one RK07 with a defective cap in the main PSU that took out the rectifier diodes - it was like a smoke bomb went off in the cabinet). -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 14:35:47 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:35:47 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these >> days. > > It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man > and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine > and accessories. Agreed, but I doubt the personal computing landscape would have looked anything like it did without him. Sometimes you need ruthless SOBs to get things done. You couldn't have had an Apple without a Commodore to compete with (that's sophistry, perhaps, but I still believe it). > He was famous for demanding prototypes be available for CES, accepting > orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then > forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product. While not optimal, this got computers into people's hands who wouldn't have been able to afford something better. It's always a pick-2 of getting it done fast, cheap and right, no? - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 9 14:37:04 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 12:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 9, 12 07:05:31 pm" Message-ID: <201204091937.q39Jb4RP9896038@floodgap.com> > > > > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, that's not why I'm > > > > posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the pictures ? Nothing > > > > is coming up in google > > > > > > > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html > > > > > > Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! > > > > Sure is. I was very tempted, but I am determined to keep my computer hobby > > to only two bedrooms, and I still need room for my HP 9000 to come out and > > Err, before long it'll be 'limited to only 2 houses' :-) Nooo, I mean it. I have more toys than I can play with in my lifetime, and my electric bill is high enough! :P > Which HP9000 do you have? I *think* (now you're making me work here) it's a 9000/320. I know it's a 68020, I just don't remember if it's a 320, 330 or 350. It's in my storage unit, but it must live again, it was a delightful unit. > > play. (Plus I don't know the first thing about restoring PDP-11's. -__-) > > That is the perfect reason to get one. I suspect many of use knew > little/nothing about resotring a particular machine before it ended up in > our workshop. That certianly applies to me. I'd rather learn on something a bit smaller that wouldn't dim the lights as much. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Die, v.: To stop sinning suddenly. -- Elbert Hubbard ----------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 9 14:41:03 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 12:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <8D75F9F2-39CE-44E0-A1D3-9F088F9B7214@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Apr 9, 12 03:29:58 pm" Message-ID: <201204091941.q39Jf3SY9830474@floodgap.com> > > > And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven. > > > > > > http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gaming-pioneer-jack-tramiel-dies-at-age-83/ > > > > That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these days. > > Indeed. Slightly amusing that he should pass within a few days of > Jim Marshall, though. :-) Truly. But, I did get to meet him at (I guess it would have been his final) his appearance at CHM for the 25th Anniversary, and he and Leonard both autographed my PET 2001's manual. Leonard was impressed it was still working. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world will end at 3 p.m. today, to be followed by a brief symposium. --- From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 9 15:03:42 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:03:42 +1200 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> Message-ID: >It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man >and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine >and accessories. True, but you could say this of many of the movers and shakers of the micro world. Steve Jobs with the unreliable Apple III and Mac 128 - limited RAM, no expansion and little software...Bull Gates...numerous buggy versions of first-release products. It was a cut-throat game. They were all ruthless, driven, demanding men. Tez From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 9 15:04:38 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 13:04:38 -0700 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8340D6.6050401@brouhaha.com> Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven. Don't be ridiculous. Everyone knows that only mechanoids, calculators, toasters, and the like go to silicon heaven. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 15:08:51 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 13:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/8/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, > that's not why I'm > > posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the > pictures ? Nothing > > is coming up in google > > > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html > > ? Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! > And at last we know where this ended up: http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out-on-the-collectible-computers-they-have/ -Ian From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 9 15:11:45 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 16:11:45 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F834281.6040708@atarimuseum.com> "Business is War" was his company Motto... Ruthless? Shrewd is more appropriate, and highly aggressive, more so then the laid back California culture was used to.... he brought East Coast aggressive business tactics to Atari, woke up a company that was continually taking longer and longer and longer to release products, generally which were only cost reduced updates with minor upgrades. While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat. There are a lot of things that are largely public misconceptions about him that through research and access to the original mainframe emails and memo's is quite the contrary... The real kicker here..... myself and Marty Goldberg were supposed to meet with Jack next week for a face to face interview for our book and it is a shame we won't have that on tape now. Jack will speak to us through his words from his emails, memo's and such, that will still give us some solid insight into his thinking, but after speaking with him on the phone just a few weeks ago, which was a remarkably enjoyable conversation, I was very much looking forward to meeting him in person to continue our talk. Curt David Riley wrote: > On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > > >> On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>> That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these >>> days. >>> >> It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man >> and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine >> and accessories. >> > > Agreed, but I doubt the personal computing landscape would have looked > anything like it did without him. Sometimes you need ruthless SOBs to > get things done. You couldn't have had an Apple without a Commodore to > compete with (that's sophistry, perhaps, but I still believe it). > > >> He was famous for demanding prototypes be available for CES, accepting >> orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then >> forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product. >> > > While not optimal, this got computers into people's hands who wouldn't > have been able to afford something better. It's always a pick-2 of > getting it done fast, cheap and right, no? > > > - Dave > > From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 9 15:18:16 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 16:18:16 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> On 4/9/2012 3:35 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these >>> days. >> >> It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man >> and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine >> and accessories. > > Agreed, but I doubt the personal computing landscape would have looked > anything like it did without him. Sometimes you need ruthless SOBs to > get things done. You couldn't have had an Apple without a Commodore to > compete with (that's sophistry, perhaps, but I still believe it). I don't disagree with this. > >> He was famous for demanding prototypes be available for CES, accepting >> orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then >> forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product. > > While not optimal, this got computers into people's hands who wouldn't > have been able to afford something better. It's always a pick-2 of > getting it done fast, cheap and right, no? No, the engineers just needed some more time to produce a more finished product. Although there might be indirect factors that I'm not taking in account (like maybe an earlier time to market causes a higher rate of adoption of the brand/item), the product would have likely cost only marginally more if done right. I hope I'm remembering correctly, but I think the 1541 was a victim of Jack Tramiel's rush-to-market engineering. The original 1541 engineer(don't remember which guy it was) had said separately that due to lack of time for testing(and time to find the bug), that some million man hours were wasted while people waited for the drive to load various software over the years. (bug caused a huge performance problem) This is covered here http://www.amazon.com/Commodore-Company-Edge-Brian-Bagnall/dp/0973864966 But I think everyone here knows the story better than I do. Keith From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 9 15:19:57 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Apr 2012, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > > And another father of beloved machines has passed into silicon heaven. > > http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gaming-pioneer-jack-tramiel-dies-at-age-83/ At least he outlived that rat-bastard Irving Gould. Jack will be missed. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 9 15:28:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 13:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120409132632.F29251@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Apr 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > He was famous for demanding prototypes be available for CES, accepting > orders for something that wasn't ready for mass production, and then > forcing the engineers to release a sub-standard product. In other words, "a leader of the industry"! (and all of the horrific things that THAT really means) What really happened in the big "technology trade" of Atari and Commodore? From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 15:42:41 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 13:42:41 -0700 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F8349C1.20707@gmail.com> On 4/9/2012 1:08 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > And at last we know where this ended up: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out-on-the-collectible-computers-they-have/ > -Ian Funny enough that was the first thing I thought of when I saw the ad. I thought it might be the same one but, never bothered to check. Not to encourage them but, mentioning that in the auction might actually make it more valuable. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 9 16:02:32 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:02:32 +1200 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: >While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat. The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but maybe you mean the PETs? One thing that interests me is why the early Commodore products, like the PET, did so well in Europe as opposed to North America? Was it just a lack of competition in Europe in that Tandy, Atari and Apple didn't focus on that market in the late 1970s? Tez From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Apr 9 16:03:19 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 22:03:19 +0100 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F8349C1.20707@gmail.com> References: <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F8349C1.20707@gmail.com> Message-ID: You mean, Lord Vadic? http://www.bsd.org/decwars.html On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 9:42 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/9/2012 1:08 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> >> And at last we know where this ended up: >> http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out-on-the-collectible-computers-they-have/ >> -Ian > > > Funny enough that was the first thing I thought of when I saw the ad. I > thought it might be the same one but, never bothered to check. ?Not to > encourage them but, mentioning that in the auction might actually make it > more valuable. > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- They view life as a bunch o' unconnected incidents 'n things. They don't realize that there's this, like, lattice o' coincidence that lays on top o' everything. Give you an example; show you what I mean: suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness. -Miller, Repo Man From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Apr 9 11:13:31 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 17:13:31 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. Message-ID: <01OE1MEV57TU0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >Ok, THX guys, >I've managed to get this thing running again, don't ask me how :-) > It's hard to know how to advise you where to go next when you don't tell us where you are now :-) > >But my first problem, the cause of the fiddling with the system paramaters >persists. > >This is the VIM73-69 source for VMS: > > The adequate command for mmk is: > > mmk /descrip=Make_vms.mms > > NOTE: Because of empty /auto/config.h (needed for Unix configure) >build > will fail with very strange messages. Therefore before building, it is > recommended to make one clean up, to prepare everything for OpenVMS > development. The command is: > > Buffer: INSTALLVMS.TXT | Write | Insert | >Forward > > > >$ mms /descrip=Make_vms.mms > >using DECW/Motif/XPM environment. >creating OS_VMS_MOTIF.OPT file. >cc /def=("FEAT_BIG","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF","HAVE_XPM" ) >/opt/prefix= >all /include=([.proto],decw$include:) BLOWFISH.C >%CLI-F-TEXT, Compiler abort - virtual memory limits exceeded. >%SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort >%MMS-F-ABORT, For target BLOWFISH.OBJ, CLI returned abort status: >%X0000002C. >-SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort >$ > > >I've googled for the error and found this: > >http://www.jcameron.com/vms/em12.htm > >...that was the beginning of the problem. > [snip] > >So what should I do next to try to compile that VIM source (hopefully w/o >to destroying the system again) > That webpage has some good advice. The C compiler installation guide should include details on what SYSGEN parameters and user quotas need to be set to for the compiler to function properly as well as how to set them. If you don't have the installation guide, I would suggest finding out what VIRTUALPAGECNT is now and if it is "small", increase it is smaller steps than previously using AUTOGEN (not using SYSGEN, if that's what was used before). $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("VIRTUALPAGECNT") will tell you what VIRTUALPAGECNT is set to now. Suppose it 64000. You could try adding the line: MIN_VIRTUALPAGECNT=100000 to the bottom of SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT using the editor. and then use the following command to run AUTOGEN: $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN SAVPARAMS SETPARAMS Then review the log files that AUTOGEN says it is producing and if things look good, shut down and reboot. Next, make sure that the userid running the compile has as much page file quota as VIRTUALPAGECNT will allow: $ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM $ RUN AUTHORIZE MODIFY HOLM /PGFLQUOTA=100000 If the userid is already logged in, be sure to log out and log back in to get the new user quota to take effect. Then retry the compile. If it still fails, check that VIRTUALPAGECNT has indeed been increased as expected and use: $ SHOW PROCESS /QUOTA in the same process as attemtped the compile to see what its pagefile quota is set to. If they are as expected and the compile still fails, try increasing both items some more as per the above procedure. Maybe try 150000 if 100000 is not sufficient. > >The VS4000 has 64 Mbytes of Ram, I think that should be sufficient to >compile something like this, so it seems to me that some quote values are >the problem. > What a process sees is virtual memory, not physical memory. The amount of virtual memory a process can use depends on system parameters such as VIRTUALPAGECNT (and BALSETCNT as pointed out by someone else) and user quotas such as PGFLQUOTA and the size of the page file on disk. The process can end up seeing less memory than physically exists or more memory than physically exists depending on how various system parameters are set and how big the page file is. VMS has lots of parameters to control memory allocation in order to try to avoid just giving processes what they ask for and ending up leaving other more important processes starved for memory when they need it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 13:04:08 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 13:04:08 -0500 Subject: Jack Tramiel dead. :( Message-ID: Guys, just got confirmation from his son Leonard, a friend of mine. I'm sorry to say that Jack passed away yesterday. The man was an immense influence in the consumer electronics/computing industry whose legacy allowed many of us to enjoy years of great memories. My sincerest thoughts goes out to his family in their time of loss. Curt and I were supposed to interview him next week for the book on Atari Corp. Was really excited to get the chance to meet and spend time him. :( -- Marty From jonas at otter.se Mon Apr 9 14:37:24 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 21:37:24 +0200 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F833A74.3020305@otter.se> On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:25:47 -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: > whats a scratch monkey? Scratch monkey is from a lab accident where real monkeys were killed owing to diagnostics being run on a computer: http://edp.org/monkey.htm This may or may not be an urban legend /Jonas From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 9 16:21:58 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 22:21:58 +0100 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <201204090113.q391DBXF14287034@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 8, 12 06:13:11 pm Message-ID: <014501cd1696$cda4fda0$68eef8e0$@ntlworld.com> > That is the perfect reason to get one. I suspect many of use knew > little/nothing about resotring a particular machine before it ended up in our > workshop. That certianly applies to me. And me. I am learning far more about power supplies than I ever thought I would, although I know I still have a mountain to climb to become even remotely conversant. Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 16:32:12 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 17:32:12 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sun, 4/8/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA... >> > >> > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html >> >> ? Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! >> > > And at last we know where this ended up: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out-on-the-collectible-computers-they-have/ Interesting. I remember seeing that footage from Auction Hunters. Even stuffed in the corner, it was clear that it was a PDP-11 and was worth more than what they paid for the entire lot. Thanks for pointing out the connection. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 9 18:14:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 19:14:19 -0400 Subject: RK11-C (was Re: What is this Vadic thing ?) In-Reply-To: <795B99DA-362C-4314-A84C-506E07781FC4@gmail.com> References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> <9D50E1BB-9046-4CFC-B9F6-999C891EDFB6@cs.ubc.ca> <00bd01cd15dd$c87e79a0$597b6ce0$@ntlworld.com> <4F82243E.1000609@gmail.com> <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <4F823379.1010206@neurotica.com> <4F8238F2.6070403@neurotica.com> <795B99DA-362C-4314-A84C-506E07781FC4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F836D4B.9010700@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2012 03:20 PM, David Riley wrote: >> And I like the typical smell of a just powered-up RK05. > > Smells like... victory. Nice. :) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 9 18:17:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 19:17:05 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F836DF1.4020908@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2012 04:08 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, >> that's not why I'm >>> posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the >> pictures ? Nothing >>> is coming up in google >>> >>> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html >> >> Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! >> > > And at last we know where this ended up: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out-on-the-collectible-computers-they-have/ Well I sure am glad that got "discovered". I often wonder (and fume) about that machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 18:59:54 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 19:59:54 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <201204091937.q39Jb4RP9896038@floodgap.com> References: <201204091937.q39Jb4RP9896038@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> play. (Plus I don't know the first thing about restoring PDP-11's. -__-) >> >> That is the perfect reason to get one. I suspect many of use knew >> little/nothing about resotring a particular machine before it ended up in >> our workshop. That certianly applies to me. > > I'd rather learn on something a bit smaller that wouldn't dim the lights > as much. ;) Try an 11/23. That's what I've got, and I run the backplane off a hacked-up AT power supply tied to the rails. One of these days, when I find one in good condition, it'll go in a BA11 or BA23 (though if I find a good BA23, I'll probably try to find something beefier to go in it). For now, though, it's pretty content in its bare 4x4 backplane (about the size of a VCR) with a decent fan blowing through it. Easy enough to contain for most people. - Dave From Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net Mon Apr 9 19:31:02 2012 From: Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 02:31:02 +0200 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <045b01cd160f$0b872860$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <00b201cd140a$791d3c40$6b57b4c0$@ntlworld.com> <00c601cd143a$623e2130$26ba6390$@ntlworld.com> <00c701cd1442$daaf6fe0$900e4fa0$@ntlworld.com> <000001cd14a2$381db1a0$a85914e0$@ntlworld.com> <004e01cd14f6$8ec79fd0$ac56df70$@ntlworld.com> <20120407201640.GB26996@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a201cd15a6$e49273d0$adb75b70$@ntlworld.com> <4F823C45.9050204@jetnet.ab.ca> <045b01cd160f$0b872860$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <1334017862.5824.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> m?n 2012-04-09 klockan 02:09 -0300 skrev Alexandre Souza - Listas: > > Yes, and the stock is now depleted, prices will go up. > > I have some hundreds at hand. Gold price. Make your offer :) > > > What I can't figure out is why they need to make so many kinds of *NEW* > > transistors? > > Because transistor designers must earn a living :o) It exists a rumour that Curt Nicolin once said: -- If left on their own and with to little to do, bureaucrats will start to invent new work (for themselves and everyone else.) -- The meaning is of course that the newly invented work wont be things useful to the organization. Bureaucrat = Transistor designer. Curt Nicolin was a swedish industrialist. Mainly he was part of the Wallenberg-sphere. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 9 23:11:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 00:11:17 -0400 Subject: 11/70 bus Message-ID: <4F83B2E5.9030404@neurotica.com> Does anyone know offhand if it's possible to use the "BCT" slot for an RH70 in the PDP-11/70 backplane as a standard Unibus slot, for, say, an RX211 or something like that? It would seem to be a normal Unibus slot, it even requires that a grant card be installed if that RH70 board set isn't installed. I can dig through the print sets for hours to find this out, but if someone knows offhand I'd appreciate an express clue delivery. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fast79ta at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 23:22:06 2012 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 22:22:06 -0600 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4F822714.9040100@neurotica.com> <1334002131.81829.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001cd16d1$7e156640$7a4032c0$@yahoo.com> At least it didn't wind up in a dumpster or a scrapyard. Should keep some one entertained for a while getting it running again! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus Sent: April-09-12 2:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is this Vadic thing ? --- On Sun, 4/8/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > > There is an 11/34 for sale on Craigslist in LA but, > that's not why I'm > > posting. What's the Vadic device shown in one of the > pictures ? Nothing > > is coming up in google > > > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2947330407.html > > ? Wowowoowwwwww...beautiful system! > And at last we know where this ended up: http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/07/25/auction-hunters-totally-miss-out-on-the -collectible-computers-they-have/ -Ian From evan at snarc.net Mon Apr 9 23:24:58 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 00:24:58 -0400 Subject: VCF East update Message-ID: <4F83B61A.8040603@snarc.net> Less than one month to go .... we're up to 21 exhibits, four or five lectures (I forget exactly; adding one more this week), and seven technical workshops. All the details are posted at http://www.vintage.org/2012/east/ and http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast8 .... if ever you considered attending VCF East, then let this be the year! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 9 23:24:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 00:24:37 -0400 Subject: 11/70 bus In-Reply-To: <4F83B2E5.9030404@neurotica.com> References: <4F83B2E5.9030404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F83B605.2040008@neurotica.com> On 04/10/2012 12:11 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Does anyone know offhand if it's possible to use the "BCT" slot for an > RH70 in the PDP-11/70 backplane as a standard Unibus slot, for, say, an > RX211 or something like that? It would seem to be a normal Unibus slot, > it even requires that a grant card be installed if that RH70 board set > isn't installed. > > I can dig through the print sets for hours to find this out, but if > someone knows offhand I'd appreciate an express clue delivery. Gah, that sounded terrible, and I know better. Of course what I'd like to know is if the "BCT" slot for an RH70 is usable as a standard Unibus SPC slot. How embarrassing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 9 23:33:17 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 21:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Apr 9, 12 07:59:54 pm" Message-ID: <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> > Try an 11/23. That's what I've got, and I run the backplane off a > hacked-up AT power supply tied to the rails. One of these days, when > I find one in good condition, it'll go in a BA11 or BA23 (though if I > find a good BA23, I'll probably try to find something beefier to go > in it). > > For now, though, it's pretty content in its bare 4x4 backplane (about > the size of a VCR) with a decent fan blowing through it. Easy enough > to contain for most people. How much does a "bare" 11/23 do, however? What do you use for mass storage? (I did say I was totally ignorant of PDPs.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If I can have honesty, it's easier to overlook mistakes. -- Kirk, Star Trek From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 10 00:46:39 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 22:46:39 -0700 Subject: 11/70 bus In-Reply-To: <4F83B2E5.9030404@neurotica.com> References: <4F83B2E5.9030404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F83C93F.3040803@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Does anyone know offhand if it's possible to use the "BCT" slot for an > RH70 in the PDP-11/70 backplane as a standard Unibus slot, for, say, an > RX211 or something like that? It would seem to be a normal Unibus slot, Not even close. It uses many of the pins to pass signals to the other modules of the RH70. Even the power supply pins don't match. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 10 01:23:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 02:23:23 -0400 Subject: 11/70 bus In-Reply-To: <4F83C93F.3040803@brouhaha.com> References: <4F83B2E5.9030404@neurotica.com> <4F83C93F.3040803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F83D1DB.7050906@neurotica.com> On 04/10/2012 01:46 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Does anyone know offhand if it's possible to use the "BCT" slot for an >> RH70 in the PDP-11/70 backplane as a standard Unibus slot, for, say, an >> RX211 or something like that? It would seem to be a normal Unibus slot, > > Not even close. It uses many of the pins to pass signals to the other > modules of the RH70. Even the power supply pins don't match. Poop. Ok, thanks for the info. I really don't want to run an expansion chassis, but there are hardly any Unibus slots in an 11/70. :-( I saw those grant cards and figured I might get lucky. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 01:25:19 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 00:25:19 -0600 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. Message-ID: FYI... If you've been looking for this stuff, now is your chance... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 01:36:45 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 01:36:45 -0500 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > How much does a "bare" 11/23 do, however? What do you use for mass storage? > (I did say I was totally ignorant of PDPs.) It is not uncommon for the PDP-11/23 (or even PDP-11/03 for that matter) to be paired with a DLV11J quad serial card. One serial point is typically strapped as the console interface leaving three ports at your disposal. One thing that's easy to do is set up a DOS or Linux box as an emulated TU58 and boot RT-11 from that. Transfer rates are usually 38400 bps, and emulated tape skips the long seek times. One can also do this with a PDP-11/23+ board that happens to come with two ports (and boot ROMs) on the CPU board. In terms of traditional mass storage, an RLV11 was cheap back in the day ($50 to $100 when I was seeing them in the mid-1980s) but it needs a particular type of backplane and can only see, IIRC, 18-bits worth of memory. The single-board RLV12 works anywhere there's room for a quad card (i.e., nearly any one except for the dual-height mid-1970s backplane for the LSI-11/2) and sees all 22 bits in a full-blown machine. Either controller can address up to four RL01 (5MB) or RL02 (10MB) drives. More common was a floppy controller - an RXV11 that could only talk to an RX01 drive (or an RX02 set to work as an RX01), or an RXV21 that can talk to an RX02 in RX02 mode. Newer systems, mid-1980s and on, tended towards an RQDX1 or RQDX2 or RQDX3. There are a few differences between them, but they all talk to RX50 dual 5.25" drives and various models of ST506/ST412 hard drives ranging from 5MB (a real ST506) to 154MB (a Maxtor XT2190 badged as an RD54). In terms of physical size, the emulated TU58 is only a serial cable to a laptop or desktop in the same room, the RQDXn interfaces to drives that fit in a shoebox, then the RX01/RX02 are microwave oven-sized, then the RL01/RL02 are as tall and wide and at least twice as deep as a floppy drive. There are other options, but these were quite common in their day and were typically larger still. In terms of size, I'd say an emulated TU58 has the smallest footprint, followed by an RXQD3 with a Teac FD55GFR strapped to be an RX33 (I think that's supported on the RXDX3 - it is on the MicroVAX 2000). -ethan From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Apr 10 02:25:45 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:25:45 +0200 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. In-Reply-To: <01OE1MEV57TU0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OE1MEV57TU0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120410072545.GM94272@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >Ok, THX guys, > >I've managed to get this thing running again, don't ask me how :-) > > > > It's hard to know how to advise you where to go next when you don't tell us > where you are now :-) > > > > >But my first problem, the cause of the fiddling with the system paramaters > >persists. > > > >This is the VIM73-69 source for VMS: > > > > The adequate command for mmk is: > > > > mmk /descrip=Make_vms.mms > > > > NOTE: Because of empty /auto/config.h (needed for Unix configure) > >build > > will fail with very strange messages. Therefore before building, it is > > recommended to make one clean up, to prepare everything for OpenVMS > > development. The command is: > > > > Buffer: INSTALLVMS.TXT | Write | Insert | > >Forward > > > > > > > >$ mms /descrip=Make_vms.mms > > > >using DECW/Motif/XPM environment. > >creating OS_VMS_MOTIF.OPT file. > >cc /def=("FEAT_BIG","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF","HAVE_XPM" ) > >/opt/prefix= > >all /include=([.proto],decw$include:) BLOWFISH.C > >%CLI-F-TEXT, Compiler abort - virtual memory limits exceeded. > >%SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort > >%MMS-F-ABORT, For target BLOWFISH.OBJ, CLI returned abort status: > >%X0000002C. > >-SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort > >$ > > > > > >I've googled for the error and found this: > > > >http://www.jcameron.com/vms/em12.htm > > > >...that was the beginning of the problem. > > > > [snip] > > > > >So what should I do next to try to compile that VIM source (hopefully w/o > >to destroying the system again) > > > > That webpage has some good advice. The C compiler installation guide should > include details on what SYSGEN parameters and user quotas need to be set to > for the compiler to function properly as well as how to set them. > > If you don't have the installation guide, I would suggest finding out what > VIRTUALPAGECNT is now and if it is "small", increase it is smaller steps > than previously using AUTOGEN (not using SYSGEN, if that's what was used > before). > > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("VIRTUALPAGECNT") > > will tell you what VIRTUALPAGECNT is set to now. Suppose it 64000. You could > try adding the line: > > MIN_VIRTUALPAGECNT=100000 > > to the bottom of SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT using the editor. > > and then use the following command to run AUTOGEN: > > $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN SAVPARAMS SETPARAMS > > Then review the log files that AUTOGEN says it is producing and if things > look good, shut down and reboot. > > Next, make sure that the userid running the compile has as much page file quota > as VIRTUALPAGECNT will allow: > > $ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM > $ RUN AUTHORIZE > MODIFY HOLM /PGFLQUOTA=100000 > > If the userid is already logged in, be sure to log out and log back in to get > the new user quota to take effect. Then retry the compile. If it still fails, > check that VIRTUALPAGECNT has indeed been increased as expected and use: > > $ SHOW PROCESS /QUOTA > > in the same process as attemtped the compile to see what its pagefile quota is > set to. If they are as expected and the compile still fails, try increasing > both items some more as per the above procedure. Maybe try 150000 if 100000 > is not sufficient. > > > > >The VS4000 has 64 Mbytes of Ram, I think that should be sufficient to > >compile something like this, so it seems to me that some quote values are > >the problem. > > > > What a process sees is virtual memory, not physical memory. The amount of > virtual memory a process can use depends on system parameters such as > VIRTUALPAGECNT (and BALSETCNT as pointed out by someone else) and user quotas > such as PGFLQUOTA and the size of the page file on disk. The process can end > up seeing less memory than physically exists or more memory than physically > exists depending on how various system parameters are set and how big the > page file is. VMS has lots of parameters to control memory allocation in order > to try to avoid just giving processes what they ask for and ending up leaving > other more important processes starved for memory when they need it. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. I have cleared this in the meantime with some help of B. Ulmann aka vaxman. The paging file was much to small, I've diabled swapping and created a much bigger pagefile.sys (500000 blocks), raised PGFLQUOTA to 130000 blocks and some other things. The compiling doesn't stop now anymore because of vm-space outage. There are orher problems now with that VIM Source, the files blowfish.c and sha356.c take very very much time to compile. I do have an account on Vaxmans VAX7000/820 and even on this machine the compiling was not done after 13hrs of CPU Time. SHA356.c behaves pretty much similar. I'll look later this day if the compiling gets done on this machine, on my VS4000 the same process is running now for 12hrs on the CPU and the VS4000/90 isn't the slowest VAX so far as I know... I'll report later what happens.. Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 07:32:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:32:04 -0400 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> References: <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Apr 10, 2012, at 12:33 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Try an 11/23. That's what I've got, and I run the backplane off a >> hacked-up AT power supply tied to the rails. One of these days, when >> I find one in good condition, it'll go in a BA11 or BA23 (though if I >> find a good BA23, I'll probably try to find something beefier to go >> in it). >> >> For now, though, it's pretty content in its bare 4x4 backplane (about >> the size of a VCR) with a decent fan blowing through it. Easy enough >> to contain for most people. > > How much does a "bare" 11/23 do, however? What do you use for mass storage? > (I did say I was totally ignorant of PDPs.) Depends on what you want to do with it. I have a CQD-220 MSCP SCSI card (which I highly recommend) which will support SCSI disks on any operating system that supports MSCP (later versions of everything DEC, and I believe someone has working MSCP patched into 2.9BSD which is the last that'll run on a /23 due to the lack of split I/D). I also have a TSV-05 system (DEC Pertec controller and DEC-branded Cipher-F880 9-track tape drive, which is larger than the machine it's talking to). And I landed a DELQA (good Ethernet controller, ironically running on a 10MHz 68000 which is probably faster than the /23 it's running in), which will be useful once I get my act together to get something running with it. I'd say hunt for a good MSCP controller of some sort first; the SCSI cards are a great deal if you're into old Macs and have lots of older SCSI disks lying about. :-) It's not as simple to bootstrap something onto it, though, not nearly as much as the tape drive. I wrote a quick assembly bootstrap and corresponding Python script to load and execute programs over the serial port so I could e.g. write tapes out and boot from them, but MSCP is a much more complex protocol and I'm more interested in letting the OS handle that for the time being. I know lots of people like to do emulated TU58s (DECTapes) over the serial port. I haven't done that yet. As Ethan mentioned above, the 11/23+ has the serial ports built in - that's the one I have. Nice, all-in-one quad- size CPU board with serial and bootstrap... no fuss, no muss. :-) Of course, the built-in serial only goes up to 19200 baud, which means writing out a full 40MB 1600bpi tape takes... a while. - Dave From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Apr 10 08:47:33 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:47:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help Message-ID: Greetings; Long-story-short, a couple of years ago I picked up six Onyx2 racks and have been moving them around with me without ever actually firing them up. I've finally got myself sorted and have been slowly working through bringing things up and having some successes, but every step closer has me finding a new problem. My set-up right now has one graphics head and five compute nodes cabled together in a daisy-chain (not enough CrayLinks for anything else). It appears all but one of the MMSCs are shot, so I'm doing manual start-ups using the keys. My current confusion is how to nominate which system becomes the Global Master. For some odd reason whenever I bring up three racks the machine I've "picked" as the master (keyboard/mouse/gfx head) comes up just fine and boots into IRIX, but whenever I add two more nodes things get a bit more fuzzy and the Global Master appears to migrate around. I had initially believed that the last rack in the power-up sequence would always become the Global Master, since it goes and finds all the rest, but this apparently is not the case... or perhaps there are corollaries I'm unaware of. The more times I turn this thing on and off the more hardware is failing on me, not unexpectedly. I've lost a PSU, a node board and now one of the racks has started making a worryingly hot-electrical smell. I'd really like to get it all working together just once before I get old and grey. Cheers; - JP From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Apr 10 09:28:16 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:28:16 +0200 Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120410142816.GD9323@Update.UU.SE> Just a few pointers. Check out http://forums.nekochan.net. The site is down at the moment but usualy quite alive and has more than a few members with Onyx2 racks (myself included). Check out sgi documentation (I'm sure you have seen it): http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/dynaweb_docs/hdwr/SGI_Admin/books/Onyx2_Rack_OG/sgi_html/index.html When it comes to spares.. well, the PSU seems to go and I'd like to keep my spares for when I bring my own rack up. I could probably separate with a few node boards (uncertain what I actually have, will have to check). The MMSC fails in the display if I'm not misstaken, perhaps a replacement LCD could be found? But you should be able to fire up the whole system with just one. And finally, I love your youtube channel! keep the videos comming :) Cheers, Pontus. On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 08:47:33AM -0500, JP Hindin wrote: > > Greetings; > > Long-story-short, a couple of years ago I picked up six Onyx2 racks and > have been moving them around with me without ever actually firing them up. > I've finally got myself sorted and have been slowly working through > bringing things up and having some successes, but every step closer has me > finding a new problem. > > My set-up right now has one graphics head and five compute nodes cabled > together in a daisy-chain (not enough CrayLinks for anything else). It > appears all but one of the MMSCs are shot, so I'm doing manual start-ups > using the keys. > > My current confusion is how to nominate which system becomes the Global > Master. For some odd reason whenever I bring up three racks the machine > I've "picked" as the master (keyboard/mouse/gfx head) comes up just fine > and boots into IRIX, but whenever I add two more nodes things get a bit > more fuzzy and the Global Master appears to migrate around. > > I had initially believed that the last rack in the power-up sequence would > always become the Global Master, since it goes and finds all the rest, but > this apparently is not the case... or perhaps there are corollaries I'm > unaware of. > > The more times I turn this thing on and off the more hardware is failing > on me, not unexpectedly. I've lost a PSU, a node board and now one of the > racks has started making a worryingly hot-electrical smell. I'd really > like to get it all working together just once before I get old and grey. > > Cheers; > > - JP > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Apr 10 06:22:52 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:22:52 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. Message-ID: <01OE5I8HEVF60012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >I have cleared this in the meantime with some help of B. Ulmann aka vaxman. >The paging file was much to small, I've diabled swapping and created a >much bigger pagefile.sys (500000 blocks), raised PGFLQUOTA to 130000 blocks >and some other things. The compiling doesn't stop now anymore because of >vm-space outage. > I'm glad the original problem is solved. > >There are orher problems now with that VIM Source, the files blowfish.c and >sha356.c take very very much time to compile. I do have an account on >Vaxmans VAX7000/820 and even on this machine the compiling was not done after >13hrs of CPU Time. SHA356.c behaves pretty much similar. >I'll look later this day if the compiling gets done on this machine, on my >VS4000 the same process is running now for 12hrs on the CPU and the >VS4000/90 isn't the slowest VAX so far as I know... > You can check what the compiler is doing with the command: $ SHOW PROCESS /CONTINUOUS /ID=xxxxxxxx where xxxxxxxx is the process id of the process doing the compile. You can also use MONITOR to see what the whole machine is doing. $ MONITOR MODES will tell you which processor modes are in use most. If it shows mostly user mode, the compile is CPU bound. If it shows mostly kernel mode or interrupt stack, there is an i/o bottleneck. If it shows mostly idle, something is wrong and the compiler is not getting sufficient access to the machines resources. $ MONITOR PROCESSES /TOPCPU should show the compiling process as getting most of the CPU. If something else is getting a significant amount of CPU, there may be something wrong. I've compiled a fair amount of C on my VAX 4000/100A which is also pretty fast and on my VAX 3100 model 76 which is less fast and I don't remember any single source file taking anything like even 1 hour to compile. Are the sources involved particularly large or complex? Does the compile show any signs of making progress (for instance, is the object file or listing file growing in size) or could it be stuck in a loop doing nothing useful? Is there too much detail being logged in the listing file resulting in a huge listing output? You haven't said whether you did an AUTOGEN or not. If you have not, I would suggest doing one as this should help sort out any other system parameters that might be incorrect. > >I'll report later what happens.. > I'd certainly be interested to know what's going on. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From dave_rowland at btinternet.com Tue Apr 10 09:33:47 2012 From: dave_rowland at btinternet.com (Dave Rowland) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:33:47 +0100 Subject: Camtec jnt pad Message-ID: Hi Does anyone have info on the jnt pad. We have one here at the museum but dont have docs. Looks like it works but not found a console access yet. Thanks Dave -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Apr 10 09:50:19 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:50:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: <20120410142816.GD9323@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Just a few pointers. > > Check out http://forums.nekochan.net. The site is down at the moment but > usualy quite alive and has more than a few members with Onyx2 racks > (myself included). The NekoChan guys are great - but, as you say, dead in the water recently or I would've posted there first. I'm being impatient :) > Check out sgi documentation (I'm sure you have seen it): > http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/dynaweb_docs/hdwr/SGI_Admin/books/Onyx2_Rack_OG/sgi_html/index.html The documentation seems to be pretty sparse on these sorts of specifics - I've been vaguely wondering if an SGI tech generally taught owners this sort of thing. > When it comes to spares.. well, the PSU seems to go and I'd like to keep > my spares for when I bring my own rack up. I could probably separate > with a few node boards (uncertain what I actually have, will have to > check). Believe me, I hear you. And the PSUs are unbelievably heavy, so shipping would kill. And complicated. I was delighted when I popped it out and refreshed my memory on its output though - 3.45v at 375 Amps. 375! > The MMSC fails in the display if I'm not misstaken, perhaps a > replacement LCD could be found? But you should be able to fire up the > whole system with just one. My understanding is the MMSCs are far more prone to fail than the screens. The MMSCs will bring up the NIC lights on start, so I've been using that as an indicator and only one seems to work. More importantly, unfortunately, every rack needs an MMSC to fire. The MMSC connects to the MSC to co-ordinate the power sequencing of the modules and each MMSC can only talk to two modules at once. > And finally, I love your youtube channel! keep the videos comming :) Thank you! I'm trying to put up something w/all these damned SGIs for a joke but it keeps getting further delayed because of all the freakin' problems I'm having. I'll get there in the end. Three racks gave me 24 processors the other day, which blew me away. But I'd sure like to go for 40 (I've got a couple spare nodeboards). - JP > On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 08:47:33AM -0500, JP Hindin wrote: > > > > Greetings; > > > > Long-story-short, a couple of years ago I picked up six Onyx2 racks and > > have been moving them around with me without ever actually firing them up. > > I've finally got myself sorted and have been slowly working through > > bringing things up and having some successes, but every step closer has me > > finding a new problem. > > > > My set-up right now has one graphics head and five compute nodes cabled > > together in a daisy-chain (not enough CrayLinks for anything else). It > > appears all but one of the MMSCs are shot, so I'm doing manual start-ups > > using the keys. > > > > My current confusion is how to nominate which system becomes the Global > > Master. For some odd reason whenever I bring up three racks the machine > > I've "picked" as the master (keyboard/mouse/gfx head) comes up just fine > > and boots into IRIX, but whenever I add two more nodes things get a bit > > more fuzzy and the Global Master appears to migrate around. > > > > I had initially believed that the last rack in the power-up sequence would > > always become the Global Master, since it goes and finds all the rest, but > > this apparently is not the case... or perhaps there are corollaries I'm > > unaware of. > > > > The more times I turn this thing on and off the more hardware is failing > > on me, not unexpectedly. I've lost a PSU, a node board and now one of the > > racks has started making a worryingly hot-electrical smell. I'd really > > like to get it all working together just once before I get old and grey. > > > > Cheers; > > > > - JP > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 10 10:39:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:39:20 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F845428.6060106@bitsavers.org> On 4/9/12 11:25 PM, Richard wrote: > FYI... > > Is anyone else going to go after this? I'm mainly interested in the TNIX floppies. I have a lot of the documentation already. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 10 10:39:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204101539.LAA28930@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I was delighted when I popped [a power supply] out and refreshed my > memory on its output though - 3.45v at 375 Amps. 375! Er. Wow. That's .0092 ohm of load. Talk about energy hazard.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 11:18:40 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:18:40 -0600 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F845428.6060106@bitsavers.org> References: <4F845428.6060106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4F845428.6060106 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 4/9/12 11:25 PM, Richard wrote: > > FYI... > > > > > > Is anyone else going to go after this? > I'm mainly interested in the TNIX floppies. > I have a lot of the documentation already. I'm NOT going after it, because it doesn't have any Tektronix graphics gear and while there's a terminal in the lot, it's not enough to entice me to get the whole haul. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 11:32:49 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:32:49 -0600 Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , JP Hindin writes: > More importantly, unfortunately, every rack needs an MMSC to fire. Every rack with nodes, yes? I have a 4-rack Onyx2 Reality Monster and the only rack with an MMSC is the rack with the compute nodes. The other 3 racks with graphics don't have an MMSC. > I'm trying to put up something w/all these damned SGIs for a joke but it > keeps getting further delayed because of all the freakin' problems I'm > having. I'll get there in the end. Three racks gave me 24 processors the > other day, which blew me away. But I'd sure like to go for 40 (I've got a > couple spare nodeboards). Please keep us posted as to your progress. I have never had sufficient power to fire up my Reality Monster and I suspect that the longer it sits gathering dust, the more little problems I'm accumulating... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 11:40:05 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:40:05 -0400 Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200DD58A-8C8C-4EDE-B342-BFA89AFF3837@gmail.com> On Apr 10, 2012, at 12:32 PM, Richard wrote: > Please keep us posted as to your progress. I have never had > sufficient power to fire up my Reality Monster and I suspect that the > longer it sits gathering dust, the more little problems I'm > accumulating... Especially with the caps (as the PDP-10 conservationists here have already expounded upon at length). They're the most likely components to "rot" in storage after mechanical media. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 11:46:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:46:43 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki Message-ID: The Terminals Wiki is open for public browsing! This is a joint project between myself (username Legalize), Jason T (username Silent700) and Ian Primus (username Sark). I am the wiki administrator. My intention was to create a single reference site for everything we can find about terminals. Right now, account creation is by request only, but I will open it up for more public editing gradually over time (I am mostly concerned about spambots, I don't want this wiki to become a spam ghetto like so many others). I'm trying to make this an authoritative source, not just a hodge-podge of unsubstantiated opinions. To that end, everything I've put into the wiki so far is sourced from technical documentation (linked to manx and bitsavers and other sources) or from periodicals on Google books like Computerworld, InfoWorld, Network World, PC Mag, etc. Obviously there is tons more information that could be added and that will happen over time, but there is enough there now to be useful in looking up weird terminals that you might encounter in the wild. One nice thing about Google books is that they index the advertising as much as they index the articles. I'm not sure that traditional search databases like Nexus/Lexus do that. It has meant that I have been able to find lots of information on terminals through advertising, including some technical specifications and photos. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 11:48:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:48:46 -0600 Subject: Terminals Wiki needs an IBM terminals expert Message-ID: Frankly, IBM terminal land is completely unknown to me. I am looking for a volunteer to contribute information about terminals from IBM and other manufacturers that were intended for the IBM mainframe world. Let me know if you're interested! The pay is nonexistent and it's entirely a labor of love on your part, but I think we're off to a good start. However, the wiki is almost completely lacking on IBM mainframe type terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Apr 10 11:48:08 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:48:08 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away References: Message-ID: <740F014DF0BF4E7BAEECCB65600C8DD3@vl420mt> ----- Original Message: Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 16:18:16 -0400 From: Keith Monahan To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Jack Tramiel passed away Message-ID: <4F834408.8020104 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 4/9/2012 3:35 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these >>> days. >> >> It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man ----- Reply: Umm, why "should it be noted," especially a few days after his death? Whether it's Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Jack Tramiel, why do some people feel the need to insult and criticize (especially immediately after their death in the case of the latter two) these people who did what they had to in order to survive and be competitive and make the huge contributions that they did to the field which is a hobby and a vocation for most of us? Being "nice" doesn't usually succeed in a cutthroat field like computer hardware and software; I don't think I'd call Jack "ruthless" but perhaps his time in a concentration camp did give him a stronger sense of what it takes to survive than some people. >> and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine >> and accessories. I don't know; all my PETs, VIC20s and all except one C64 are still working as well as when they were new; other than C64 power packs and PALs overheating, what decisions resulted in unreliable and unstable machines and accessories? The drive interface issue you mention was precisely the result of a compromise to make it reliable and stable (albeit slow). >> I hope I'm remembering correctly, but I think the 1541 was a victim of >> Jack Tramiel's rush-to-market engineering. Again, I don't know if Jack was personally responsible, but yes, getting new product "out there" before the competition has always been crucially important and yes, sometimes decisions are made that have repercussions long afterwards due to backward compatibility issues (640Kb oughta be enough for everyone...) In any case, the VIC20/1541 issue created an opportunity for numerous third-parties to market speed-up solutions. Let's give Jack the respect and credit he deserves and let him rest in peace. m From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Apr 10 11:57:33 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:57:33 -0700 Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: <20120410142816.GD9323@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120410142816.GD9323@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <201204100957.33948.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 10 April 2012, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Just a few pointers. > > Check out http://forums.nekochan.net. The site is down at the moment but > usualy quite alive and has more than a few members with Onyx2 racks > (myself included). Nekochan is very good. I have brought up SGIs including Elans, Maximum Impacts, Octanes, etc. up to Onyx3s. I have found that the following site(s) by Ian Mapleson are great sources of SGI info: England: http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgi.html U.S. Mirror http://vintagecomputers.info/sgi.html If you get stuck, you can email Ian and as you can imagine, he knows SGI. He also has spare parts (if you don't mind paying shipping costs from the UK). > Check out sgi documentation (I'm sure you have seen it): > http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/dynaweb_docs/hdwr/SGI_Admin/books/Onyx2_Rack_OG/sgi_html/index.html Agreed, techpubs.sgi.com is still a great source. I'd download all you can from there, as the "new" SGI doesn't do MIPS and has been slowly deleting MIPS related information from there websites and Supportfolio. Speaking of which, you might want to sign up with Supportfolio: https://support.sgi.com/ IIRC, you can still sign up free - and get certain IRIX patches and other software which is downloadable free. > When it comes to spares.. well, the PSU seems to go and I'd like to keep > my spares for when I bring my own rack up. I could probably separate > with a few node boards (uncertain what I actually have, will have to > check). Indeed, most of us who collect SGIs have a good number of spares we've collected over time - as they have been getting more and more difficult to find. Scrappers love MIPS based SGIs because their backplanes and boards have a high level of gold content. Sigh... >> The MMSC fails in the display if I'm not misstaken, perhaps a > replacement LCD could be found? But you should be able to fire up the > whole system with just one. Agreed... > > And finally, I love your youtube channel! keep the videos comming :) > Cheers, Lyle > On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 08:47:33AM -0500, JP Hindin wrote: > > > > Greetings; > > > > Long-story-short, a couple of years ago I picked up six Onyx2 racks and > > have been moving them around with me without ever actually firing them up. > > I've finally got myself sorted and have been slowly working through > > bringing things up and having some successes, but every step closer has me > > finding a new problem. > > > > My set-up right now has one graphics head and five compute nodes cabled > > together in a daisy-chain (not enough CrayLinks for anything else). It > > appears all but one of the MMSCs are shot, so I'm doing manual start-ups > > using the keys. > > > > My current confusion is how to nominate which system becomes the Global > > Master. For some odd reason whenever I bring up three racks the machine > > I've "picked" as the master (keyboard/mouse/gfx head) comes up just fine > > and boots into IRIX, but whenever I add two more nodes things get a bit > > more fuzzy and the Global Master appears to migrate around. > > > > I had initially believed that the last rack in the power-up sequence would > > always become the Global Master, since it goes and finds all the rest, but > > this apparently is not the case... or perhaps there are corollaries I'm > > unaware of. > > > > The more times I turn this thing on and off the more hardware is failing > > on me, not unexpectedly. I've lost a PSU, a node board and now one of the > > racks has started making a worryingly hot-electrical smell. I'd really > > like to get it all working together just once before I get old and grey. > > > > Cheers; > > > > - JP > > > > -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Apr 10 12:04:45 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:04:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Richard wrote: > In article , > JP Hindin writes: > > > More importantly, unfortunately, every rack needs an MMSC to fire. > > Every rack with nodes, yes? > > I have a 4-rack Onyx2 Reality Monster and the only rack with an MMSC > is the rack with the compute nodes. The other 3 racks with graphics > don't have an MMSC. Half. The Gfx modules definitely don't need the sequencing, beyond avoiding massive in-rush current popping breakers. When the Gfx modules come up they display a basic screen and then, when the KTOWNs they're connected to are powered on, the Gfx module reinitialises anyway. But flipping on six Gfx modules by hand, and then letting the MMSC handle the compute nodes is a bit odd, to my mind. But the Gfx modules (or, rather, the MSCs they contain) are capable of connecting to the MMSCs. In my setup, each rack is mixed Gfx module/Compute module, and both upper/lower bays was connected to the MMSC. I don't know how many racks they usually had connected together, however. > > I'm trying to put up something w/all these damned SGIs for a joke but it > > keeps getting further delayed because of all the freakin' problems I'm > > having. I'll get there in the end. Three racks gave me 24 processors the > > other day, which blew me away. But I'd sure like to go for 40 (I've got a > > couple spare nodeboards). > > Please keep us posted as to your progress. I have never had > sufficient power to fire up my Reality Monster and I suspect that the > longer it sits gathering dust, the more little problems I'm > accumulating... Willdo. Most of the effort was involved in running a new 6-3 line, new outlets/plugs (mismatching 20A and 30A twistloks combined with horrifically expensive outlets), and building my own power-strip to allow me to run so many racks side-by-side. Now I just need to work out how to say "YOU ARE THE MASTER" and get the idiotic thing all up with all five racks. - JP From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 12:13:34 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:13:34 -0600 Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: <200DD58A-8C8C-4EDE-B342-BFA89AFF3837@gmail.com> References: <200DD58A-8C8C-4EDE-B342-BFA89AFF3837@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <200DD58A-8C8C-4EDE-B342-BFA89AFF3837 at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > On Apr 10, 2012, at 12:32 PM, Richard wrote: > > > Please keep us posted as to your progress. I have never had > > sufficient power to fire up my Reality Monster and I suspect that the > > longer it sits gathering dust, the more little problems I'm > > accumulating... > > Especially with the caps (as the PDP-10 conservationists here have > already expounded upon at length). They're the most likely > components to "rot" in storage after mechanical media. Yeah, I'm guessing that's what's taking a toll on the PSUs? They've got big caps in them, I'm sure. My previous warehouse had *no* power outlets in the portion I rented. The current warehouse has power outlets, but the building is woefully underpowered. I feel like I'd be on the edge of burning a fuse/popping a breaker to plug in anything that needs a high amperage plug. So it's individual workstations and terminals only, at least for a while. I never expected to be able to power on my big SGI machines until I had some sort of machine room type environment with controlled cooling and beefy power. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From sander.reiche at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 12:27:07 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:27:07 +0200 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Richard wrote: > The Terminals Wiki is open for public browsing! > Bookmarked! Congratz on opening it! re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Apr 10 12:58:02 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:58:02 -0400 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Interesting that one of your partners goes by Silent700 but there are no Texas Instruments terminals in your wiki yet. If you're interested, I'm going to be bringing one of the last variants of the 700 to VCF East next month to use as a printing terminal on my SWTPc. Bill S. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 13:02:02 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:02:02 -0500 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I used to keep a PDT-150 at my parents house for late night games of ADVENTURE. Small footprint, a little slow, but worked out well with a VT100. On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 1:36 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> How much does a "bare" 11/23 do, however? What do you use for mass storage? >> (I did say I was totally ignorant of PDPs.) > > It is not uncommon for the PDP-11/23 (or even PDP-11/03 for that > matter) to be paired with a DLV11J quad serial card. ?One serial point > is typically strapped as the console interface leaving three ports at > your disposal. ?One thing that's easy to do is set up a DOS or Linux > box as an emulated TU58 and boot RT-11 from that. ?Transfer rates are > usually 38400 bps, and emulated tape skips the long seek times. ?One > can also do this with a PDP-11/23+ board that happens to come with two > ports (and boot ROMs) on the CPU board. > > In terms of traditional mass storage, an RLV11 was cheap back in the > day ($50 to $100 when I was seeing them in the mid-1980s) but it needs > a particular type of backplane and can only see, IIRC, 18-bits worth > of memory. ?The single-board RLV12 works anywhere there's room for a > quad card (i.e., nearly any one except for the dual-height mid-1970s > backplane for the LSI-11/2) and sees all 22 bits in a full-blown > machine. ?Either controller can address up to four RL01 (5MB) or RL02 > (10MB) drives. ?More common was a floppy controller - an RXV11 that > could only talk to an RX01 drive (or an RX02 set to work as an RX01), > or an RXV21 that can talk to an RX02 in RX02 mode. ?Newer systems, > mid-1980s and on, tended towards an RQDX1 or RQDX2 or RQDX3. ?There > are a few differences between them, but they all talk to RX50 dual > 5.25" drives and various models of ST506/ST412 hard drives ranging > from 5MB (a real ST506) to 154MB (a Maxtor XT2190 badged as an RD54). > > In terms of physical size, the emulated TU58 is only a serial cable to > a laptop or desktop in the same room, the RQDXn interfaces to drives > that fit in a shoebox, then the RX01/RX02 are microwave oven-sized, > then the RL01/RL02 are as tall and wide and at least twice as deep as > a floppy drive. ?There are other options, but these were quite common > in their day and were typically larger still. > > In terms of size, I'd say an emulated TU58 has the smallest footprint, > followed by an RXQD3 with a Teac FD55GFR strapped to be an RX33 (I > think that's supported on the RXDX3 - it is on the MicroVAX 2000). > > -ethan From barythrin at yahoo.com Tue Apr 10 13:07:50 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1334081270.68569.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Just googling around, so apologies if I'm way off, but is it like this http://benjeapes.blogspot.com/2010/06/back-when-pad-didnt-even-mean-pad.html ? Is it a serial sniffer? If so and assuming you know which serial input and standard it's using you could probably either hook up another serial sniffer/analyzer to it and see what it's doing or a standard terminal would likely spit something out once you figure out the proper communication settings. Given no clue if it's DTE or DCE. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 13:20:02 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:20:02 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink at verizon.net>, "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > Interesting that one of your partners goes by Silent700 > but there are no Texas Instruments terminals in your wiki > yet. Yes, isn't that interesting? I'll let him defend himself on that point. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 13:31:00 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:31:00 +0100 Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: <1334081270.68569.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1334081270.68569.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F847C64.2020200@gmail.com> On 10/04/2012 19:07, Sam Onella wrote: > Just googling around, so apologies if I'm way off, but is it like this http://benjeapes.blogspot.com/2010/06/back-when-pad-didnt-even-mean-pad.html ? Is it a serial sniffer? If so and assuming you know which serial input and standard it's using you could probably either hook up another serial sniffer/analyzer to it and see what it's doing or a standard terminal would likely spit something out once you figure out the proper communication settings. Given no clue if it's DTE or DCE. Its a X25 Packet/Assembler/Dissasembler. It allows ordinary Async Terminals to be connected to an X.25 network. In the UK all Universities had such networks under the umbrella of JANET. Some at Janet probably has a manual. I have forgotten almost every thing I know about them. I have asked one of my former colleagues if he has any info. Dave From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Apr 10 13:35:17 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:35:17 +0200 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. In-Reply-To: <01OE5I8HEVF60012HE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OE5I8HEVF60012HE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120410183517.GA36323@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >I have cleared this in the meantime with some help of B. Ulmann aka vaxman. > >The paging file was much to small, I've diabled swapping and created a > >much bigger pagefile.sys (500000 blocks), raised PGFLQUOTA to 130000 blocks > >and some other things. The compiling doesn't stop now anymore because of > >vm-space outage. > > > > I'm glad the original problem is solved. > > > > >There are orher problems now with that VIM Source, the files blowfish.c and > >sha356.c take very very much time to compile. I do have an account on > >Vaxmans VAX7000/820 and even on this machine the compiling was not done after > >13hrs of CPU Time. SHA356.c behaves pretty much similar. > >I'll look later this day if the compiling gets done on this machine, on my > >VS4000 the same process is running now for 12hrs on the CPU and the > >VS4000/90 isn't the slowest VAX so far as I know... > > > > You can check what the compiler is doing with the command: > > $ SHOW PROCESS /CONTINUOUS /ID=xxxxxxxx > > where xxxxxxxx is the process id of the process doing the compile. > > You can also use MONITOR to see what the whole machine is doing. > > $ MONITOR MODES > > will tell you which processor modes are in use most. If it shows mostly user > mode, the compile is CPU bound. If it shows mostly kernel mode or interrupt > stack, there is an i/o bottleneck. If it shows mostly idle, something is wrong > and the compiler is not getting sufficient access to the machines resources. > > $ MONITOR PROCESSES /TOPCPU > > should show the compiling process as getting most of the CPU. If something else > is getting a significant amount of CPU, there may be something wrong. > > I've compiled a fair amount of C on my VAX 4000/100A which is also pretty fast > and on my VAX 3100 model 76 which is less fast and I don't remember any single > source file taking anything like even 1 hour to compile. Are the sources > involved particularly large or complex? Does the compile show any signs of > making progress (for instance, is the object file or listing file growing in > size) or could it be stuck in a loop doing nothing useful? Is there too much > detail being logged in the listing file resulting in a huge listing output? > > You haven't said whether you did an AUTOGEN or not. If you have not, I would > suggest doing one as this should help sort out any other system parameters > that might be incorrect. Yes done Autogen several times and nailed pagefile.sys and swapfile.sys to 0 now in modparams.dat. > > > > >I'll report later what happens.. > > > > I'd certainly be interested to know what's going on. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Nothing clear until now... maybe you want to check yourselfes: http://polarhome.com/vim/files/source/vms/vim-73-src-vms.zip I think this is the source I'm using currently, it should unzip into an vim73-69 directory. In this directory you have some Install doc INSTALLVMS.TXT, an mms Makefile MAKE_VMS.MMS and so on. I've edited the mms file to build an text only version on the VAX7000 and a motif Gui variant on the VS4000. There is no difference, the compiler (Compaq cc v 6.4 or so from the hobbyist 7.3 CD) is hanging in sha256.c and blowfish.c for ever. The process is cpu bound, the program counter (sh proc/cont/id=) rotates around 200 Bytes in the 1B18xx .. 1B1Axx Area on both machines, the 7000 on OpenVMS7.2 the VS on OpenVMS7.3. I've tried to comment something out of blowfish.c to find what is disturbing the compile but found nothing special until now. (mabe thats realted to the fourdimensional array in there) Currently I've disabled the crypto entirely in feature.h (Search for CRYPT) and want to look if the rest is working. Vaxman sayd, that he remembers that the C-compiler has a bug where it simply stalls, this seems to be that bug.. I've stopped the tests on the VAX7000 since there are other things/people that want some CPU time... Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Apr 10 13:35:35 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:35:35 +0200 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: From: "Richard" Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:20 PM To: "cctalk" Subject: Re: The Terminals Wiki > > In article <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink at verizon.net>, > "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > >> Interesting that one of your partners goes by Silent700 >> but there are no Texas Instruments terminals in your wiki >> yet. > > Yes, isn't that interesting? > > I'll let him defend himself on that point. :-) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! I had a quick look ... just stumbled on the C-Itoh page. I saw that you do not have a picture of the C-Itoh 101 (VT101 clone). IIRC, I have one complete in nice shape (in the previous not yet sold home). Next time I'm there I will take it along and make a few pictures for your site. greetz, - Henk. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 14:10:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:10:51 -0400 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I had a quick look ... just stumbled on the C-Itoh page. > I saw that you do not have a picture of the C-Itoh 101 (VT101 clone). > IIRC, I have one complete in nice shape (in the previous not yet sold home). > Next time I'm there I will take it along and make a few pictures for your > site. I also have a few C-Itohs - models 101 and 101e. The 101 looks like a VT100, the 101e reminds me of a Wyse-50 with softer edges. We always liked those at work - we had a lot of them and a lot of real DEC terminals. One mildly confusing thing was that they used a 1/4" jack for the keyboard, like a VT100, but was not compatible. Occasionally, users would move terminals around and get keyboards mixed up and call us because their terminal was "dead". Solid clones, though. -ethan From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Apr 10 14:12:51 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:12:51 +0100 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 April 2012 17:46, Richard wrote: > The Terminals Wiki is open for public browsing! > > Hmm. Do viewdata terminals count? I've got a reasonable collection, and none feature in here :-) (A rough list of what I have is at the temporary URL http://v2b.viewdata.org.uk/doku.php/hardware/Introduction ) Rob. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 14:41:52 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:41:52 -0700 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> Here's a home friendly PDP once again located in LA. Seems to be PDP 11 season in Southern California for some reason. Just a bit too far away for me and a little pricy http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2950659229.html From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Apr 10 14:42:28 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:42:28 +0200 Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F848D24.6000704@update.uu.se> On 04/10/2012 04:50 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > >> The MMSC fails in the display if I'm not misstaken, perhaps a >> replacement LCD could be found? But you should be able to fire up the >> whole system with just one. > My understanding is the MMSCs are far more prone to fail than the screens. > The MMSCs will bring up the NIC lights on start, so I've been using that > as an indicator and only one seems to work. > More importantly, unfortunately, every rack needs an MMSC to fire. The > MMSC connects to the MSC to co-ordinate the power sequencing of the > modules and each MMSC can only talk to two modules at once. I'm mixing things up here. I think the MMSC PSU tends to fail, have you tried to swap them around? http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16725089 Regards, Pontus. From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Apr 10 14:46:09 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:46:09 +0100 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 April 2012 20:10, Ethan Dicks wrote > I also have a few C-Itohs - models 101 and 101e. ?The 101 looks like a > VT100, the 101e reminds me of a Wyse-50 with softer edges. Ah, Wyse terminals... I spent many happy years in the '90s programming at a Wyse 120.... I still had a couple until a few years ago, when I had to get rid of them to make space. I've still got a keyboard from maybe a WY-30 in a junk box (anybody need one?) and I've got the cardboard box that a WY-50 once came in (albeit filled with kids toy trains..) I might have still a manual for a '120 somewhere, too.. Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 14:54:54 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:54:54 -0400 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 3:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Here's a home friendly PDP once again located in LA. Seems to be PDP 11 > season in Southern California for some reason. Just a bit too far away for > me and a little pricy > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2950659229.html It's a nice one. For those that don't know, it's a lot like an embedded LSI-11/2, but has a smaller I/O page so it can take a few more K of RAM than a Qbus PDP-11. The drives are RX01 and can't be upgraded. It's not a fast one, but it's nice and portable. Runs RT-11 just fine. I had one years ago, then got another one recently. Can't comment on the price in today's climate. When I sold my first one 15 years ago, I think I got $150-$200 for it. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 10 14:02:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:02:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 9, 12 03:04:10 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have one. It's very much the same as a normal RK05J, but without the > > door,pack holder. The disk pack is fiotted when the drive is built and > > held down by a couple of tension srings. It still ahs only one disk and 2 > > heads, but has twice as many cylinders as a noraml RK05. The fact that > > the back is not normally removed emans that any slight run-out in the > > spindle is not important, since the disk will be in the same position for > > formatting, writing and reading. > > Yep. IIRC, you are also expected to shim the pack in the hub to > minimize runout and/or wobble. I don;t rememebr that, but it;'s been some time since I worked on one. I don't recall there being any shims in my unit either. And I can't really see the need. Provided the disk hub doen't move relative to the spindle (they are matneitclaly locked together, like in a normal RK05), the tracks will stay in the smae places on the disk so there'll be no problems reading/wriging then. I wonder if you're thinking fo the trick of adding a small ship to the hole of a low-density alignment pack to let it be used in high density drives. I think that's in one of the RK05 manuals. > > I assume the positioner graticule is differnet too, but I've never > > investigated that. IIRC the electorncis is the later RK05J stuff, but > > with link changes. > > I don't think the positioner graticule is different, but there are > jumpers to set on the cards for J vs F if I'm remembering correctly. There are certianly jumpers to set, to make it appear as 2 separate drives and to have twice as many cylinders as normal. > If that's so, then the number of ticks/slits is not likely a 1-1 map > of tracks. It must be a higher density that's divided by selectable > factors. I thought it was one cycle of the graticule signls for each cylinder in a normal RK05. In which case there mush be some changes for the RK05F. I really can't rememebr... I'll look at the prints sometime and check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 10 14:30:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:30:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 9, 12 09:33:17 pm Message-ID: > How much does a "bare" 11/23 do, however? What do you use for mass storage? > (I did say I was totally ignorant of PDPs.) > I think a related question is 'What will a PDP11/23 do that I can't do with my existing machines'. There are some pretty good PDP11 emulators, so I guess if you want to run the DEC OSes and related software you could do it one those rather than on the 'real' machine. OK, a PDP11/23 will let you talk to real Q-bus peripehrals. For mass storage, most people use a ST412-interfaced winchsseter drive on these machines. There are SCCI interface boards, but they're expensive. You can get SMD controlelrs, but I suspect that gets you into the 'too large' category fast. Waht this mahcine _won't_ do is have a blinkenlights panel. Nor will it really let you 'get inside' the CPU. The CPU is a couple of custom ICs, really. Pwersonally, I'd go for an 11/34 (with a keypad panel) or an 11/44 (no front panel, but an emulator in the CPU control processor ROM that lets you do frontpanel fucntions using a serial terminal). These machines have CPUs built from TTL, PROMs, PLAs, etc and you can spend many a long light with one and a logic analyser... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 10 14:07:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:07:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK11-C (was Re: What is this Vadic thing ?) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 9, 12 03:35:11 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 3:20 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Apr 9, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > > >> And I like the typical smell of a just powered-up RK05. > > > > Smells like... victory. > > Unless something bad just happened... then it smells like burning. > > (thankfully, I've not had that experience with an RK05, but there was > this one RK07 with a defective cap in the main PSU that took out the > rectifier diodes - it was like a smoke bomb went off in the cabinet). I've had an RK05 catch fire.... The blower fan and spindle motor are 115V, even in units running off 230V mains,. They run off the primary of the mains transformer acting as an autotransformer, with the spindle motor between the cetre tap and neeutral and the blower betwee nthe tap and live. The result is that while the blower only has 115V across it, oen end of the winding is at 230V wrt the chassis. And the insulation isn't really up to it. One of mine broke down, and the blower motor actually had small flames inside it. I pwered fdown quickly and took it apart, the enamel on the windings was charred... Fortuantely a friend had an old blower with bad bearings, it wasn't hard to make one good one from the 2 bits. I've heard of other RK05s over here suffering similar problems, BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 10 14:14:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:14:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <201204091937.q39Jb4RP9896038@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 9, 12 12:37:04 pm Message-ID: > > Which HP9000 do you have? > > I *think* (now you're making me work here) it's a 9000/320. I know it's a > 68020, I just don't remember if it's a 320, 330 or 350. It's in my storage > unit, but it must live again, it was a delightful unit. Right... I think I prefer the 9000/200 series. The 300s and later are 'just another unix box'. OK, that's very unkind, they _are_ HPs and are built very nicely, but they're full of custom silicon (some of the data sheets are on bitsavers!), and it's rare to run anything o nthem other htan HP-UX. The older machines have lots more standard ICs in them, and oftne run thigns like GHP BASIC or UCSD Pascal. [FWIW, and to avoid flame,s I do like Unix-like ORes, but there are plenty of machines old and new, that can run such software. I like to use my classics ot run thigns I can't run on other machines] > > > > play. (Plus I don't know the first thing about restoring PDP-11's. -__-) > > > > That is the perfect reason to get one. I suspect many of use knew > > little/nothing about resotring a particular machine before it ended up in > > our workshop. That certianly applies to me. > > I'd rather learn on something a bit smaller that wouldn't dim the lights > as much. ;) It depends on wht you want to learn.... Smalelr PDP11s, including all Q-bus models, have a custom DEC processor IC or chipset. In that respect they're rather like microcomputers, THe older, larger machines may well have a processor built from SSI and MSI chips. Whith those you can (and do) connect a logic analyser to the ALU outputs, or look athe carry flag with a logic probe, or... As a hardware hacker, I feel everyone should get at least one machine (not necessarily a PDP11) with a CPU built like that and fully understnad it. It takes away a lot of the clouds of 'magic' that seems to be associated with the operation of a processor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 10 14:49:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:49:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: from "Dave Rowland" at Apr 10, 12 03:33:47 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > > Does anyone have info on the jnt pad. We have one here at the museum > but dont have docs. Looks like it works but not found a console access > yet. I know the unit, this is hte Async to X25 PAD that was used at most UK universities... Somewhere, and it'll take a bit of finding, I have the user manual for it. This has no hardware infromation really, but it does cover how to configure it. From what I rememebrm yuo have to send soemting on port 0 (or maybe one of ports 0-7) after a reset. Once it gets into the 'LED cycling' state, it's too late. The rest switch is a button on the CPU board inside, BTW. I'll see if I can dig out the manual. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 15:10:23 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:10:23 -0500 Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8493AF.7080003@gmail.com> On 04/10/2012 09:50 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > The documentation seems to be pretty sparse on these sorts of specifics - > I've been vaguely wondering if an SGI tech generally taught owners this > sort of thing. That was certainly my experience in the latter half of the 90s. SGI liked to sell support deals - we had a couple of tame (and probably very expensive) SGI techs on-call who would either help via phone/net or come in for site visits, and they were always great for imparting information that wasn't in the released manuals. There were quite a few times when they couldn't find what they needed in whatever documentation they had back at base, either, and had to bounce things back to someone deep within the bowels of SGI who could replicate the setup as close as possible and work out what was going on. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 15:13:08 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:13:08 -0400 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Rob wrote: > Ah, Wyse terminals... I spent many happy years in the '90s programming > at a Wyse 120.... I still had a couple until a few years ago, when I > had to get rid of them to make space. I've still got a keyboard from > maybe a WY-30 in a junk box (anybody need one?) and I've got the > cardboard box that a WY-50 once came in (albeit filled with kids toy > trains..) ? ?I might have still a manual for a '120 somewhere, too.. ISTR that Wyse terminals were especially common in places I visited that were primarily non-DEC UNIX shops. I'm sure price had a lot to do with it. DEC terminals were pretty expensive (ISTR a price point for a VT100 or VT102 around $1600 in the early 1980s). I think we had a mix of DEC and C-Itoh because of the cost of growing a company from a handful to nearly 100... nobody wanted to spend over $100K on terminals (especially right after spending $100K on the VAX-11/750). -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 10 15:17:09 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:17:09 -0700 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 10, at 12:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Here's a home friendly PDP once again located in LA. Seems to be > PDP 11 season in Southern California for some reason. Just a bit > too far away for me and a little pricy > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2950659229.html .. just be careful about what you're buying, the picture looks like to be a badly photoshopped version of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DEC-PDT-11-150.jpg From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 15:18:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:18:43 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article , "Henk Gooijen" writes: > I had a quick look ... just stumbled on the C-Itoh page. > I saw that you do not have a picture of the C-Itoh 101 (VT101 clone). > IIRC, I have one complete in nice shape (in the previous not yet sold home). > Next time I'm there I will take it along and make a few pictures for your > site. Sweet! I have a CIT-101 in my collection, but alas no keyboard and mine's a little dingy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 15:28:25 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:28:25 -0500 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> On 04/10/2012 11:46 AM, Richard wrote: > The Terminals Wiki is open for public browsing! > > > This is a joint project between myself (username Legalize), > Jason T (username Silent700) and Ian Primus (username Sark). > I am the wiki administrator. > > My intention was to create a single reference site for everything we > can find about terminals. Neat... got me all nostalgic for the NCD19's that were scattered around all over the place at uni. I loved those things - the displays were so crisp on them. Oh, we also had quite a number of TA Alphatronic and BBC micro machines which had long since become too long in the tooth for general-purpose computing, but for which someone 'local' had written custom firmware to turn them into dedicated text-mode terminals - I'm not sure how common that practice was amongst educational establishments. The Alpha's keyboard was truly dreadful to type on, but the BBC's wasn't too bad. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 15:27:37 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:27:37 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Rob writes: > Do viewdata terminals count? We're trying to be inclusive here, so yes. From googling around, it looks like viewdata was a service and not a terminal manufacturer? > I've got a reasonable collection, and > none feature in here :-) > > (A rough list of what I have is at the temporary URL > http://v2b.viewdata.org.uk/doku.php/hardware/Introduction ) Always good to have more info. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 10 15:32:18 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:32:18 +0100 Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: <4F847C64.2020200@gmail.com> References: <1334081270.68569.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F847C64.2020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8498D2.1090605@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/04/2012 19:31, Dave Wade wrote: > On 10/04/2012 19:07, Sam Onella wrote: >> Just googling around, so apologies if I'm way off, but is it like this >> http://benjeapes.blogspot.com/2010/06/back-when-pad-didnt-even-mean-pad.html >> ? Is it a serial sniffer? If so and assuming you know which serial >> input and standard it's using you could probably either hook up >> another serial sniffer/analyzer to it and see what it's doing or a >> standard terminal would likely spit something out once you figure out >> the proper communication settings. Given no clue if it's DTE or DCE. > Its a X25 Packet/Assembler/Dissasembler. It allows ordinary Async > Terminals to be connected to an X.25 network. In the UK all Universities > had such networks under the umbrella of JANET. Some at Janet probably > has a manual. I have forgotten almost every thing I know about them. I > have asked one of my former colleagues if he has any info. Or depending on the model, to an Ethernet. I've still got one here. Well, at work actually - found a few years ago when Estates wanted to turn off the power to a little-used plant room, and called me up to say "is it OK to turn off this network thingy?" I couldn't believe it when they described it ("lots of plugs and sockets, some lights"); it was still running! Of course it hadn't spoken to anyone or anything in over a decade so I just did my bit for carbon reduction by repositioning the mains lead... I don't remember much about them either, so I'll ask a couple of guys who might remember more. Try 300 baud on port 0 for starters. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 10 15:49:21 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:49:21 +0100 Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F849CD1.8020805@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/04/2012 20:49, Tony Duell wrote: > I know the unit, this is hte Async to X25 PAD that was used at most UK > universities... > > Somewhere, and it'll take a bit of finding, I have the user manual for > it. This has no hardware infromation really, but it does cover how to > configure it. From what I rememebrm yuo have to send soemting on port 0 > (or maybe one of ports 0-7) after a reset. Once it gets into the 'LED > cycling' state, it's too late. The rest switch is a button on the CPU > board inside, BTW. > > I'll see if I can dig out the manual. That's a good start; meanwhile I've asked a couple of friends at JANET if they still have anything. Shame Dave didn't ask a week ago; I had half of JANET here for the annual Networkshop conference :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 10 15:46:31 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:46:31 +0100 Subject: Multi-node SGI Onyx2 startup help In-Reply-To: <4F848D24.6000704@update.uu.se> References: <4F848D24.6000704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4F849C27.9040405@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/04/2012 20:42, Pontus wrote: > I'm mixing things up here. I think the MMSC PSU tends to fail, have you > tried to swap them around? That's quite plausible, and the good news is that those SMPSUs are an industry-standard type that's fairly inexpensive and easy to replace. Not that hard to repair, either, if you're so inclined. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 10 16:03:29 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:03:29 -0700 Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: <4F847C64.2020200@gmail.com> References: <1334081270.68569.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F847C64.2020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 10, at 11:31 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > On 10/04/2012 19:07, Sam Onella wrote: >> Just googling around, so apologies if I'm way off, but is it like >> this http://benjeapes.blogspot.com/2010/06/back-when-pad-didnt- >> even-mean-pad.html ? Is it a serial sniffer? If so and assuming >> you know which serial input and standard it's using you could >> probably either hook up another serial sniffer/analyzer to it and >> see what it's doing or a standard terminal would likely spit >> something out once you figure out the proper communication >> settings. Given no clue if it's DTE or DCE. >> > Its a X25 Packet/Assembler/Dissasembler. It allows ordinary Async > Terminals to be connected to an X.25 network. In the UK all > Universities had such networks under the umbrella of JANET. Some at > Janet probably has a manual. I have forgotten almost every thing I > know about them. I have asked one of my former colleagues if he has > any info. FWIM and IIRC, X.29 was the standard that describes how an X.25 async terminal PAD is to operate. (It is conceivable JANET had their own standard for such, but I expect it is more probable they were following the 'official' standard.) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 16:04:12 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:04:12 -0400 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> Message-ID: > .. just be careful about what you're buying, the picture looks like to be a > badly photoshopped version of this: > > ? ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DEC-PDT-11-150.jpg Umm...yeah...that used to be my PDT-11/150, now in the RCS/RI collection. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 10 16:20:58 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> References: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Neat... got me all nostalgic for the NCD19's that were scattered > around all over the place at uni. I loved those things - the > displays were so crisp on them. Single-colour tubes are like that. No shadow mask means, potentially at least, very crisp precise display - dependent only on the focus precision, really. I've got one? two? of those. Some one of these decades I want to build my own software to run on them. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 16:23:03 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:23:03 -0700 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F84A4B7.9030003@gmail.com> I think this same guy had a MicroPDP 11/23 for sale last week. He used a stock photo for that too but, was pretty detailed in describing the machine when I contacted him about it. I got the feeling he did actually have a machine for sale but, just was lazy and used a stock photo. I never followed up so, I never saw the actual box or had any other dealings with him. On 4/10/2012 1:17 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Apr 10, at 12:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> Here's a home friendly PDP once again located in LA. Seems to be PDP >> 11 season in Southern California for some reason. Just a bit too far >> away for me and a little pricy >> >> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2950659229.html > > > .. just be careful about what you're buying, the picture looks like to > be a badly photoshopped version of this: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DEC-PDT-11-150.jpg From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 16:30:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:30:56 -0600 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Brent Hilpert writes: > On 2012 Apr 10, at 12:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > > Here's a home friendly PDP once again located in LA. Seems to be > > PDP 11 season in Southern California for some reason. Just a bit > > too far away for me and a little pricy > > > > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2950659229.html > > .. just be careful about what you're buying, the picture looks like > to be a badly photoshopped version of this: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DEC-PDT-11-150.jpg Good catch! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 16:30:15 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:30:15 +0100 Subject: Terminals Wiki needs an IBM terminals expert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F84A667.8050502@gmail.com> On 10/04/2012 17:48, Richard wrote: > Frankly, IBM terminal land is completely unknown to me. I am looking > for a volunteer to contribute information about terminals from IBM and > other manufacturers that were intended for the IBM mainframe world. What about the IBM mid-range terminals for System/3 System/36, System/38 and AS/400. Originally they were completely incompatible with S/360/370/390 terminals. I was told this was so that if IBM was split in ant-trust rulings each division would have its own terminals. > Let me know if you're interested! The pay is nonexistent and it's > entirely a labor of love on your part, but I think we're off to a good > start. However, the wiki is almost completely lacking on IBM > mainframe type terminals. From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Apr 10 16:45:52 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:45:52 +0100 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 April 2012 21:27, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Rob writes: > >> Do viewdata terminals count? > > We're trying to be inclusive here, so yes. ?From googling around, it > looks like viewdata was a service and not a terminal manufacturer? More of a protocol; Prestel was the initial and dominant service in the UK, Bildschirmtext in Germany, Viatel in Auatralia, etc. Minitel was the french version, using a later version of the protocol alowing for, among other things, higher resolution graphics. Initially it was envisaged as an add-on to domestic television sets, as an alternative to broadcast teletext, so early examples (late 1970s) *were* TV sets, with extra boards in them, eg the Philips G11. Then we quickly got into big plinths, on which a standard or modified TV stood (very early 1980s). Soon though the market split between proper fully integrated terminals aimed at business use, e.g. models by Sony and Philips, plug-into-your-TV systems, as typified by the huge range Tandata made, and home computers and early PCs with a modem and suitable software. >> (A rough list of what I have is at the temporary URL >> http://v2b.viewdata.org.uk/doku.php/hardware/Introduction ) > > Always good to have more info. Indeed - I really need to finish the conversion to a Wiki of my site, and get that all live, then I can start adding info there again.. Rob. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Apr 10 13:34:44 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:34:44 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. Message-ID: <01OE5S83X6OI0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >There are orher problems now with that VIM Source, the files blowfish.c and >sha356.c take very very much time to compile. I do have an account on >Vaxmans VAX7000/820 and even on this machine the compiling was not done after >13hrs of CPU Time. SHA356.c behaves pretty much similar. >I'll look later this day if the compiling gets done on this machine, on my >VS4000 the same process is running now for 12hrs on the CPU and the >VS4000/90 isn't the slowest VAX so far as I know... > Well, my curiosity got the better of me. I downloaded VIM73-69 for VMS and attempted to compile blowfish.c on my VAX 4000/100A with VAX/VMS 7.1 and DECC V6.4-005. I don't have MMS or MMK installed so I had to hack a little to make it work. I found that after some seconds work, the compiler went into a CPU bound loop and seemingly did nothing useful after that (unless it is thinking hard and will come up with something useful some time from now!). The source is not large so I was able to find that the part that the compiler was having difficulties with was these two lines of macros in bf_e_block(): F1(0) F2(1) F1(2) F2(3) F1(4) F2(5) F1(6) F2(7) F1(8) F2(9) F1(10) F2(11) F1(12) F2(13) F1(14) F2(15) I found that if I commented out F1(10) F2(11) F1(12) F2(13) F1(14) F2(15) the compile would complete in just under a minute. Next I tried commenting out just F2(11) F1(12) F2(13) F1(14) F2(15) and then the compile completed in around 7 minutes. It took about the same time if I only commented out F1(12) F2(13) F1(14) F2(15). If I commented only F2(13) F1(14) F2(15) the compile took nearly two hours! Finally, it dawned on me to try compiling the original code with /NOOPTIMISE and this completed in 30 seconds! So, it appears that something in those two lines is causing the optimiser to spend way too much time doing something. At least the good news is that if you compile blowfish.c (and perhaps sha356.c) without optimisation, it should be possible to get it done in a reasonable amount of time. Maybe the compile you are currently running will also complete eventually. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jonas at otter.se Tue Apr 10 14:24:18 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:24:18 +0200 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8488E2.9010006@otter.se> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 00:25:19 -0600, Richard wrote: > FYI... > > > If you've been looking for this stuff, now is your chance... Wow, what a collection! And a Trigger Trace Analyzer, we had one, an expensive option IIRC, a logic analyzer built in to a board in the 8540 reading the emulated processor's signals and states directly. 4 separate triggers IIRC which could be interconnected in all sorts of ways by operating system commands. IIRC the 8540 is based on a rather unusual processor, Signetics 2650. /Jonas From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 10 17:15:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:15:27 -0400 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F84B0FF.90708@neurotica.com> On 04/10/2012 05:20 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Neat... got me all nostalgic for the NCD19's that were scattered >> around all over the place at uni. I loved those things - the >> displays were so crisp on them. > > Single-colour tubes are like that. No shadow mask means, potentially > at least, very crisp precise display - dependent only on the focus > precision, really. > > I've got one? two? of those. Some one of these decades I want to build > my own software to run on them. I think I have the software distribution for those somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 10 17:26:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:26:59 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F8488E2.9010006@otter.se> References: <4F8488E2.9010006@otter.se> Message-ID: <4F84B3B3.3060200@bitsavers.org> On 4/10/12 12:24 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 00:25:19 -0600, Richard wrote: >> FYI... >> >> >> If you've been looking for this stuff, now is your chance... > OK, since I haven't heard of anyone else, I'm going to put a fairly low bid on it to try to get the media. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 17:49:46 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:49:46 -0500 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <4f8475a2.099a2a0a.1c2a.076dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4f8475a2.099a2a0a.1c2a.076dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > ? Interesting that one of your partners goes by Silent700 > ? but there are no Texas Instruments terminals in your wiki > ? yet. ?If you're interested, I'm going to be bringing one > ? of the last variants of the 700 to VCF East next month to > ? use as a printing terminal on my SWTPc. Yeah yeah.....it's all In the Works, Check's in the Mail, Real Soon Now. Richard probably has more S700s than I do, anyway ;) Seriously, though, Richard has done a ton of work on this, from wrangling his own voluminous collection to deciphering the WikiSpeak necessary to make this a pro job. I look forward to contributing! -j -- (Real Soon Now) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 17:53:44 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:53:44 -0600 Subject: Terminals Wiki needs an IBM terminals expert In-Reply-To: <4F84A667.8050502@gmail.com> References: <4F84A667.8050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4F84A667.8050502 at gmail.com>, Dave Wade writes: > On 10/04/2012 17:48, Richard wrote: > > Frankly, IBM terminal land is completely unknown to me. I am looking > > for a volunteer to contribute information about terminals from IBM and > > other manufacturers that were intended for the IBM mainframe world. > What about the IBM mid-range terminals [...] s/mainframe// Doesn't have to be mainframe. Expertise is the more important part :-). For instance, does baud rate even apply to a twinax terminal? I don't know and life's too short to learn everything, as much as I'd like :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 10 17:56:56 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 15:56:56 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F8488E2.9010006@otter.se> References: <4F8488E2.9010006@otter.se> Message-ID: <4F84BAB8.2030708@jwsss.com> I'm volunteering to go get the diskettes and convey them to Al for copying if possible. I contacted the seller and he is amenable to that. I don't have the means to transport the pile, my van is tied up right now, but hope this doesn't go to the dump. Let me know I'll drive down and get the diskettes, and have them hand carried by a fellow to Al, so they will be well cared for. Andrew? Wish I could get the thing for the Z80 SCSI to IDE converter board, but I just don't have the space to do so. Jim On 4/10/2012 12:24 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 00:25:19 -0600, Richard > wrote: >> FYI... >> >> >> If you've been looking for this stuff, now is your chance... > > Wow, what a collection! > And a Trigger Trace Analyzer, we had one, an expensive option IIRC, a > logic analyzer built in to a board in the 8540 reading the emulated > processor's signals and states directly. 4 separate triggers IIRC > which could be interconnected in all sorts of ways by operating system > commands. > IIRC the 8540 is based on a rather unusual processor, Signetics 2650. > > /Jonas > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 18:03:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:03:15 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Rob writes: > On 10 April 2012 21:27, Richard wrote: > > > > In article , > > Rob writes: > > > >> Do viewdata terminals count? > > > > We're trying to be inclusive here, so yes. From googling around, it > > looks like viewdata was a service and not a terminal manufacturer? > > More of a protocol; Prestel was the initial and dominant service in > the UK, Bildschirmtext in Germany, Viatel in Auatralia, etc. Minitel > was the french version, using a later version of the protocol alowing > for, among other things, higher resolution graphics. Ah. I used a minitel terminal in 1986. Yes, these standalone terminals would definitely count. The ones integrated with a TV are probably getting too far afield, though. > Indeed - I really need to finish the conversion to a Wiki of my site, > and get that all live, then I can start adding info there again.. I am using MediaWiki and I found it to have some quirks; email me if you want to share experiences on that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 10 18:06:22 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:06:22 -0400 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F84BCEE.3010502@verizon.net> > On Apr 10, 2012, at 12:33 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> Try an 11/23. That's what I've got, and I run the backplane off a >>> hacked-up AT power supply tied to the rails. One of these days, when >>> I find one in good condition, it'll go in a BA11 or BA23 (though if I >>> find a good BA23, I'll probably try to find something beefier to go >>> in it). >>> >>> For now, though, it's pretty content in its bare 4x4 backplane (about >>> the size of a VCR) with a decent fan blowing through it. Easy enough >>> to contain for most people. >> How much does a "bare" 11/23 do, however? What do you use for mass storage? >> (I did say I was totally ignorant of PDPs.) > A 11/23 with a 10mb disk and 32Kw of ram runs most of the popular OSs with RT11 being a common one. An 11/23 supports up to 4Mb of ram but most OSs don't use or need all that. One exception is RT11 with the VM: handler which allows excess ram to be used as disk (fast!!!). Performance of a 11/23 is about par with a 386/25 maybe faster. It's not about clock speed but OS differences and efficiencies. RSTS and RSX are very good at supporting multitasking and multiusers. RT11 was strictly single user with forground background option but perfect for real time work. If it had TSX11 layered it was decent timeshare. there UNIX (V6,V7, and some versions of 2.11bsd( that run on the 11/23 though 2.11 may want I&D space and only the J11 supports that. Ethernet is available as DEQNA or DELQA but only DECNET protocals with DEC OSs. The easiest box is the BA23, power drive mounts and not too large. the MicroPDP11 is an 11/23b (different boot rom) in a BA32, some had J11 cpus. A MSCP controller like RQDX2 or 3 is good and a ST225 or D540 will be enough disk. Along with a RX50 (or a RX33). Most of the OSs supported the MSCP controllers. If you need to format a hard disk (or floppy) than a microVAX2000 can be handy or you need the DEC diags on RX50. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 10 18:07:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:07:04 -0400 Subject: Terminals Wiki needs an IBM terminals expert In-Reply-To: References: <4F84A667.8050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F84BD18.9020104@neurotica.com> On 04/10/2012 06:53 PM, Richard wrote: >>> Frankly, IBM terminal land is completely unknown to me. I am looking >>> for a volunteer to contribute information about terminals from IBM and >>> other manufacturers that were intended for the IBM mainframe world. >> What about the IBM mid-range terminals [...] > > s/mainframe// > > Doesn't have to be mainframe. Expertise is the more important part :-). > > For instance, does baud rate even apply to a twinax terminal? I don't > know and life's too short to learn everything, as much as I'd like :-). I can help out with a lot of that stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 18:08:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:08:43 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <4f8475a2.099a2a0a.1c2a.076dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > Richard probably has more S700s than I do, anyway ;) I think I have 5 or 6. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 18:09:22 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:09:22 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <4f8475a2.099a2a0a.1c2a.076dSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > Richard probably has more S700s than I do, anyway ;) Oops, forgot 2. So 7 or 8. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 18:17:00 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 00:17:00 +0100 Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: References: <1334081270.68569.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4F847C64.2020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F84BF6C.3060800@gmail.com> On 10/04/2012 22:03, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Apr 10, at 11:31 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >> On 10/04/2012 19:07, Sam Onella wrote: >>> Just googling around, so apologies if I'm way off, but is it like >>> this >>> http://benjeapes.blogspot.com/2010/06/back-when-pad-didnt-even-mean-pad.html >>> ? Is it a serial sniffer? If so and assuming you know which serial >>> input and standard it's using you could probably either hook up >>> another serial sniffer/analyzer to it and see what it's doing or a >>> standard terminal would likely spit something out once you figure >>> out the proper communication settings. Given no clue if it's DTE or >>> DCE. >>> >> Its a X25 Packet/Assembler/Dissasembler. It allows ordinary Async >> Terminals to be connected to an X.25 network. In the UK all >> Universities had such networks under the umbrella of JANET. Some at >> Janet probably has a manual. I have forgotten almost every thing I >> know about them. I have asked one of my former colleagues if he has >> any info. > > FWIM and IIRC, X.29 was the standard that describes how an X.25 async > terminal PAD is to operate. (It is conceivable JANET had their own > standard for such, but I expect it is more probable they were > following the 'official' standard.) > Almost, I believe there are/were three standards that appertain to a PAD, X.3 describes how the terminal interacts, and X.28 describes what the user does and X.29 which describes how the host behaves. So these were call "Triple X standards". It was Janet so they just had to be different. The PAD had extensions to X28 and they had their own extra "Standard", TS29, which was X.29 over Yellow Book Transport(YBTS). From what I recall YBTS does not map well to an OSI transport service but it did allow traffic to be routed across multiple disperate X.25 networks. So in the UK the Post Office (later BT) X.25 Packet PSS network had addresses starting "2342". As you couldn't get an official allocation for a private X.25 network Janet used the range starting "0000". If you wanted to route a connection from a PSS link to a Janet site with no PSS addresses you had to use a relay of some kind. YBTS added an extra layer and allowed through routing. I think I still have the BT manual which lists the numbers and addresses of its dial-up notes.... Dave G4UGM Practical X-25 networking Alan Buttle (and others) ISBN 0-9508677-0-5 may be informative on X.25.... ... and a search on Wikipedia reveals some of the standards are now freely available from the ITU... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.25 and links at the bottom From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 18:21:15 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 00:21:15 +0100 Subject: Terminals Wiki needs an IBM terminals expert In-Reply-To: References: <4F84A667.8050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F84C06B.6000902@gmail.com> On 10/04/2012 23:53, Richard wrote: > In article<4F84A667.8050502 at gmail.com>, > Dave Wade writes: > >> On 10/04/2012 17:48, Richard wrote: >>> Frankly, IBM terminal land is completely unknown to me. I am looking >>> for a volunteer to contribute information about terminals from IBM and >>> other manufacturers that were intended for the IBM mainframe world. >> What about the IBM mid-range terminals [...] > s/mainframe// > > Doesn't have to be mainframe. Expertise is the more important part :-). > > For instance, does baud rate even apply to a twinax terminal? It will have one!. From what I remember 3270 COAX terminals run an 1.5Megabaud > I don't > know and life's too short to learn everything, as much as I'd like :-). From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 18:37:57 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:37:57 -0500 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F84C455.6000303@gmail.com> On 04/10/2012 04:20 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Neat... got me all nostalgic for the NCD19's that were scattered >> around all over the place at uni. I loved those things - the >> displays were so crisp on them. > > Single-colour tubes are like that. No shadow mask means, potentially > at least, very crisp precise display - dependent only on the focus > precision, really. For sure, but those big NCD ones always seemed particularly good. I suspect it's more a case that up to that point I'd only really used smaller cheaper mono displays - and that other screens of a similar size were probably of equal quality. > I've got one? two? of those. Some one of these decades I want to build > my own software to run on them. Lucky :-) I did have a Tektronix m88k-based X terminal, but that was colour and as you say the picture just isn't as sharp (although still a nice enough little box, which I had booting off my main Linux desktop machine for a few years). I'm not certain whether I kept it - it may be in storage overseas still. I know that someone did dig into the firmware on it and substituted their own ROM code to the point where it'd throw 'hello world' up on the screen, but I don't know if they ever got any further than that. cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 10 19:17:09 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:17:09 -0700 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 10, at 4:03 PM, Richard wrote: > In article > , > Rob writes: >> On 10 April 2012 21:27, Richard wrote: >>> In article >> +QBz-3gJ=0HaCPNFu5h4hbjBhTez0g at mail.gmail. > com>, >>> Rob writes: >>> >>>> Do viewdata terminals count? >>> >>> We're trying to be inclusive here, so yes. From googling around, it >>> looks like viewdata was a service and not a terminal manufacturer? >> >> More of a protocol; Prestel was the initial and dominant service in >> the UK, Bildschirmtext in Germany, Viatel in Auatralia, etc. Minitel >> was the french version, using a later version of the protocol alowing >> for, among other things, higher resolution graphics. > And Telidon in Canada. > Ah. I used a minitel terminal in 1986. Yes, these standalone > terminals > would definitely count. The ones integrated with a TV are probably > getting too far afield, though. There is a standalone (integrated colour monitor) Telidon terminal (ca. 1980) in the back store of the radio museum here, likely in danger of being dumpstered. It's missing the detached keyboard unfortunately, I think it was a small-pin-count connector (perhaps RJ-something) so it should be some serial-style interface. From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 19:22:29 2012 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:22:29 -0400 Subject: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <4F84A4B7.9030003@gmail.com> References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> <4F84A4B7.9030003@gmail.com> Message-ID: Taking a look at the two photographs, it's either a VERY good Photoshop. Note the Wikipedia image has a small smudge in the beige plastic right above the floppy drive bays, and the lower drive cover is covered in a hazy, white crust. The craigslist image lacks these details, and has a darkened stain (!?) on the lower disk drive cover. However, the "crust" (which might be a flash reflection off the matte finish) is still partially visible on the lower drive bay. Also of note, the surface that the unit is sitting on. The left-hand side of the Wikipedia has the wood surface meeting the wall at about 4% (image-size relative) below the start of the upper drive's vents, and on the right, about 2% above the middle seam (between the two drive units). The craigslist image has these exact same details, more-or-less identical! The wood was replaced with a bland color similar to the wall to make these seams hard to discern - very much so on the right hand side (but I can see it, sorry Photoshop, you lose), and there's that glaringly obvious discrepancy on the right-hand bottom edge of the unit... I don't think reality warps a straight line like that. (For the record: My photoshop-discerning skills come from too much browsing of a certain internet cesspool imageboard, styled after a popular Japanese web-BBS, in my teenage years. They used Photoshop like it was going out of style. After a while, you learn how to discern the fakes.) On Apr 10, 2012, at 5:23 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > On 4/10/2012 1:17 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2012 Apr 10, at 12:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> Here's a home friendly PDP once again located in LA. Seems to be PDP 11 season in Southern California for some reason. Just a bit too far away for me and a little pricy >>> >>> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/sys/2950659229.html >> >> >> .. just be careful about what you're buying, the picture looks like to be a badly photoshopped version of this: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DEC-PDT-11-150.jpg > From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 20:18:46 2012 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:18:46 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B2769AD-15FE-4C35-B34C-CEF08C573F71@gmail.com> Well, I'm far too young to really be expected to get into that level of arcane knowledge, but I'm working on a CPU emulator for a virtual ISA meant for use in a video game under development. It's extremely simple (16 opcodes - 15 basic ones, and a single "non-basic" one). It has 64k address space of 16-bit bytes (each address refers to 16 bits, and a separate set of 16 bits - 0x12345678 is 0x2 locations long - I believe that means that the byte is thus 16-bits long here) Addressing for instruction operands is extremely orthogonal. To the point that the stack manipulation functions PUSH and POP are operands and not their own instructions. To push an integer 1 on the stack, you do so: SET PUSH, 1 https://segin-utils.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/dcpu16/ contains the WIP source code for my emulator (and also serves as a "how not to write C code" guide, on purpose - I wanted to see how many tricks I could employ to keep code size down and execution speed high), as well as a copy of the CPU architecture spec. Those interested may want to browse the subversion history for the source to see the different approaches I've tried. For the lazy, use the web interface on the meta-project page: http://code.google.com/p/segin-utils/ under Source -> Browse But coding this emulator, thinking about how to structure the logic - yes, I know, probably too high level, but still, fetch the instruction, decode it, decode it's operands, fetch additional memory if operands are pointers or extend the instruction length, execute the operation, store the instruction, etc., while overly simplified, give me a fair idea what that billion-transistor slab of silicon in front of me (or in my pocket!) is doing when it's doing it's thing. I wrote a somewhat long memo detailing my thoughts on the architecture in general on the forum for the game, under the section for discussing the virtual architecture itself. Link: http://www.0x10cforum.com/forum/m/4932880/viewthread/2750850. Keep in mind that I might be talking out of my ass in huge swaths. Any and all commentary would be appreciated (and may even be used to edit and modify that post - I wish to inform, but I'm certain almost everyone on this list knows far more about real-world ISAs than I do; I was born 4 days before Windows 3.0 was released. Please forgive my mass ignorance.) (Note: I filter the list's messages into a separate IMAP folder that I check far too infrequently, so please CC me on replies, else it might be months, if ever, that I read your reply/) On Apr 10, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > It depends on wht you want to learn.... > > Smalelr PDP11s, including all Q-bus models, have a custom DEC processor > IC or chipset. In that respect they're rather like microcomputers, THe > older, larger machines may well have a processor built from SSI and MSI > chips. Whith those you can (and do) connect a logic analyser to the ALU > outputs, or look athe carry flag with a logic probe, or... > > As a hardware hacker, I feel everyone should get at least one machine > (not necessarily a PDP11) with a CPU built like that and fully understnad > it. It takes away a lot of the clouds of 'magic' that seems to be > associated with the operation of a processor. > > -tony From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 10 20:19:09 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:19:09 -0400 Subject: You can tell by some of the pixels - Re: housebroken PDPs was Re: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: References: <23536667-3696-42A4-A156-600B8210823B@gmail.com> <201204100433.q3A4XH5N12255382@floodgap.com> <4F848D00.10202@gmail.com> <4F84A4B7.9030003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F84DC0D.904@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/04/12 8:22 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > ... > (For the record: My photoshop-discerning skills come from too much browsing of a certain internet cesspool imageboard, styled after a popular Japanese web-BBS, in my teenage years. They used Photoshop like it was going out of style. After a while, you learn how to discern the fakes.) > i.e. you've seen a few 'shops in your time. --T From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 20:22:25 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:22:25 -0600 Subject: Terminals Wiki needs an IBM terminals expert In-Reply-To: <4F84C06B.6000902@gmail.com> References: <4F84A667.8050502@gmail.com> <4F84C06B.6000902@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4F84C06B.6000902 at gmail.com>, Dave Wade writes: > > For instance, does baud rate even apply to a twinax terminal? > It will have one!. From what I remember 3270 COAX terminals run an > 1.5Megabaud Yeah, from reading Wikipedia, it seems they all operate at a fixed baud rate.... which is why I was wondering if baud rate even mattered. If it's fixed and unvarying, then there's no point in listing it in the "infobox" for each twinax terminal as I do now for serial terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 20:25:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:25:46 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <4F84C455.6000303@gmail.com> References: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F84C455.6000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4F84C455.6000303 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > For sure, but those big NCD ones always seemed particularly good. Yes, I used these at E&S in the early 90s and I particularly liked the screen *and* the keyboard. I have several you can see here: I think I have the X server software stashed around somewhere, but not on original install media. > Lucky :-) I did have a Tektronix m88k-based X terminal, but that was > colour and as you say the picture just isn't as sharp (although still a > nice enough little box, which I had booting off my main Linux desktop > machine for a few years). I'm not certain whether I kept it - it may be in > storage overseas still. I know that someone did dig into the firmware on it > and substituted their own ROM code to the point where it'd throw 'hello > world' up on the screen, but I don't know if they ever got any further than > that. It's a significant piece of software engineering to bring up an X server at all, much less tune one to run well on these limited resource boxes. It's much easier to see if you can get the original distributions running on them. Later X terminals had a mature server in ROM so that they could boot independently of a network server and just rely on DHCP and whatnot for hooking themselves into your network. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 10 20:28:58 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:28:58 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Brent Hilpert writes: > There is a standalone (integrated colour monitor) Telidon terminal > (ca. 1980) in the back store of the radio museum here, likely in > danger of being dumpstered. I'd be willing to rescue that if they're just gonna dumpster it. > It's missing the detached keyboard unfortunately, I think it was a > small-pin-count connector (perhaps RJ-something) so it should be some > serial-style interface. There was also a tricky way of doing the keyswitch scanning using a small number of wires, eliminating the need for a microprocessor in the keyboard. This technique was used on the HP 2392A terminal as described in "A Reliable, Low-Cost Keyboard Interface" on pg. 7 of This uses a 5-wire interface: power, ground, increment, reset and key state. It's pretty slick. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 20:34:23 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:34:23 -0400 Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <7B2769AD-15FE-4C35-B34C-CEF08C573F71@gmail.com> References: <7B2769AD-15FE-4C35-B34C-CEF08C573F71@gmail.com> Message-ID: > But coding this emulator, thinking about how to structure the logic - yes, I know, probably too high level, but still, fetch the instruction, decode it, decode it's operands, fetch additional memory if operands are pointers or extend the instruction length, execute the operation, store the instruction, etc., while overly simplified, give me a fair idea what that billion-transistor slab of silicon in front of me (or in my pocket!) is doing when it's doing it's thing. Or you could wait for the inevitable videos of virtual machines built with redstone that will start popping up on Youtube any day now. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 10 20:52:51 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <4F84B0FF.90708@neurotica.com> References: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F84B0FF.90708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201204110152.VAA07141@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> got me all nostalgic for the NCD19's [...] >> I've got one? two? of those. Some one of these decades I want to >> build my own software to run on them. > I think I have the software distribution for those somewhere. I've got the NCD software for mine. I don't want to use them as X terminals; if I wanted to do that I already would be. I want to run my own code on them. Not for utility so much as for hack value. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 10 21:01:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:01:41 -0400 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <201204110152.VAA07141@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F84B0FF.90708@neurotica.com> <201204110152.VAA07141@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F84E605.6020405@neurotica.com> On 04/10/2012 09:52 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> got me all nostalgic for the NCD19's [...] >>> I've got one? two? of those. Some one of these decades I want to >>> build my own software to run on them. >> I think I have the software distribution for those somewhere. > > I've got the NCD software for mine. I don't want to use them as X > terminals; if I wanted to do that I already would be. I want to run my > own code on them. Not for utility so much as for hack value. Ahh, most excellent. What processor is in those? A lot of X terminals of that era used i960s if I recall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Apr 10 21:27:46 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: X Terminals In-Reply-To: <4F84E605.6020405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1334111266.77229.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 4/10/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I've got the NCD software for mine.? I don't want > to use them as X > > terminals; if I wanted to do that I already would > be.? I want to run my > > own code on them.? Not for utility so much as for > hack value. > > ? Ahh, most excellent.? What processor is in > those?? A lot of X > terminals of that era used i960s if I recall. The NCD X terms I have use 88k's. -Ian From arkaxow at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 22:35:51 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:35:51 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: >>While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product >>out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat. >The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but maybe you mean the PETs? I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed. >One thing that interests me is why the early Commodore products, like the > PET, did so well in Europe as opposed to North America? Was it just a > lack > of competition in Europe in that Tandy, Atari and Apple didn't focus on > that market in the late 1970s? >From what I read it was the guy in England who was driving the sales and was very good at it. He had built upon a reputation from Commodore's Calculator Days. Jeff Brace From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 10 22:51:24 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <4F84E605.6020405@neurotica.com> References: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F84B0FF.90708@neurotica.com> <201204110152.VAA07141@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F84E605.6020405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201204110351.XAA08587@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I've got the NCD software for mine. I don't want to use them as X >> terminals; if I wanted to do that I already would be. I want to run >> my own code on them. Not for utility so much as for hack value. > Ahh, most excellent. What processor is in those? A lot of X > terminals of that era used i960s if I recall. I don't recall. *rummage rummage* MIPS, it would appear. I have two, apparently identical. Each one is labeled as a 19r; while this label is on the monitor case, not the smarts, I have never had more than two and these two are identically labeled, so I feel reasonably sure they actually are 19rs. One of them won't power up. When I turn it on the monitor - not the speaker on the CPU board - makes the tick...tick...tick noise at about 1.5Hz that says to me "power supply constantly failing and retrying". I haven't yet opened it up to see if I can see what's wrong. The other one powers up just fine. It won't boot without a network connection, which I didn't give it, but it does drop into a ROM monitor. This includes, among other things, a DR command which is documented as displaying registers. The register dump: R0 zero R1 at R2 v0 R3 v1 R4 a0 R5 a1 R6 a2 R7 a3 00000000 A0000000 0000007B 000000AB BF800000 00200000 0000000D 00010000 R8 t0 R9 t1 R10 t2 R11 t3 R12 t4 R13 t5 R14 t6 R15 t7 00000020 A0380004 00000000 FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF 0000B401 R16 s0 R17 s1 R18 s2 R19 s3 R20 s4 R21 s5 R22 s5 R23 s7 00000000 0EC00088 000000D4 0000001B 00000059 00000000 00000000 00000000 R24 t8 R25 t9 R26 k0 R27 k1 R28 gp R29 sp R30 fp R31 ra AEC1FFFC 0EC00134 00000000 0EC076FC 00000000 0EC1FF30 00000000 0EC0394C MFLO MFHI BPC BDA DCIC BADA SR CAUSE 00000000 00000008 FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF 00000000 00000000 0000B401 00000000 DPC PRID 0EC076FC 00000000 Those register names look extremely MIPSy to me. Also, I opened one of them up and had a look. Except for the Ethernet board, which is removable, it's got three chips of significance. (Everything else is random SSI/MSI logic, like DM74AS32N or a DM74LS04N, or RAM.) There's a 40-pin DIP labeled SCN2681AC1N40 / 2231M29 / 9314KH. The other two are square chips of moderately fine pitch of somewhere around 160 pins each (40 per side). One has an NCD logo and is otherwise labeled USA / (C) 1992 REV B / PN 4400007 / 9322KVA47 and the other is marked LSI LOGIC (obviously a maker's logo) and is otherwise labeled LR33000MC-33 / MIPS CTRLR / WB33391 / NNH 9250* / 5C1321WUFBA where the * represents an approximately equilateral triangle, oriented so it looks like an over-wide capital delta. Between the register names and that "MIPS CTRLR", I have little doubt it's a MIPS CPU core. It's got RAM soldered to the board - silkscreened next to it is the text "4 MEGABYTES DRAM" - and four filled 30-pin SIMM sockets. It reports 8M on powerup; if I remove at least one but not all of the SIMMs, it tells me which socket(s) is/are empty and reports 4M. Removing all the SIMMs makes it report 4M without any complaints; I haven't tried putting non-1M SIMMs into the sockets. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 10 23:01:06 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: >>> While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product >>> out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat. > >> The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but maybe you mean the PETs? > > I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed. > Yep. Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish." g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From kfergason at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 23:12:06 2012 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 23:12:06 -0500 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:01 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > >>>> While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product >>>> out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat. >> >> >>> The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but maybe you mean the PETs? >> >> >> I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed. >> > Yep. ?Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold > sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish." > > > g. Except he was at Atari when the Amiga came out. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 10 23:32:51 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Kelly Fergason wrote: > On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:01 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: >> >>>>> While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product >>>>> out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat. >>> >>> >>>> The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but maybe you mean the PETs? >>> >>> >>> I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed. >>> >> Yep. ?Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold >> sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish." >> >> >> g. > > Except he was at Atari when the Amiga came out. > > Correct. The marketing failures fell at the feet of Irving Gould and the rest of his little f*cktard lackeys. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 10 23:53:20 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micro-PROLOG Message-ID: <201204110453.q3B4rKcl14221528@floodgap.com> Looking for any version of Micro-PROLOG by LPA. This was a modified version of Prolog for small systems and was most notable for translating the typical Horn clause into an almost Lisp-like syntax, but could still do a surprising amount of the language within limitations of the host computer. There were versions for Z80, 8086 and 6502, and possibly others. 6502 preferred but any version, especially with source code, appreciated. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You're wise, but not wise enough not to read this sort of drivel. - From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 11 00:49:56 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: archives of Tandy manuals Message-ID: I seem to recall bitsavers.org keeping old Tandy manuals, but I must have been mistaken or something changed. Who collects these? I just now noticed that the scans I made of the TRS-80 PT-210 user and service manuals are nowhere to be found through Google. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Apr 10 16:48:30 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 22:48:30 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: The Terminals Wiki Message-ID: <01OE6389GXB60012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >The Terminals Wiki is open for public browsing! > > >This is a joint project between myself (username Legalize), >Jason T (username Silent700) and Ian Primus (username Sark). >I am the wiki administrator. > >My intention was to create a single reference site for everything we >can find about terminals. > Well done - this looks like it will be a useful reference point. I have a user guide for an ICL model 6402 Character Display Terminal which I used in 1988. It may be compatible with a Televideo 950 (or maybe 925). I only used it as a fairly basic terminal but IIRC it seemed to have an endless number of features that I never felt the need to use. I only have the manual, not the terminal. If someone has the terminal and not the manual, I would be happy to give them the manual or scan it for them. I am looking for a maintenance manual for a Lear Siegler ADM-5. I found the manual for the ADM-3A on bitsavers (thanks Al!) and this helped me to fix one of my ADM-5 terminals but my other one has a fault that I think is in an area with significant differences to the ADM-3A. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Apr 11 02:14:23 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:14:23 +0200 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <201204110351.XAA08587@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F8497E9.2060803@gmail.com> <201204102120.RAA03579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F84B0FF.90708@neurotica.com> <201204110152.VAA07141@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F84E605.6020405@neurotica.com> <201204110351.XAA08587@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120411091423.tc8vb8vascgkss8w@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Mouse : > marked LSI LOGIC (obviously a maker's logo) and is otherwise labeled > LR33000MC-33 / MIPS CTRLR / WB33391 / NNH 9250* / 5C1321WUFBA where > the * represents an approximately equilateral triangle, oriented so it > looks like an over-wide capital delta. Looks like the RacerX from LSI (r3000 core with a graphics co-processor) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 11 03:23:49 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:23:49 +0100 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor Message-ID: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as "XA 55 PNP 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. I have tried to find specs for an A55 and can only find partial matches, so I am not sure what today's equivalent would be. Can anyone help me work out what the equivalent today would be? Thanks Rob From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 11 03:56:30 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:56:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP-UX 10.20 B4474FA Netstation Software Codeword? In-Reply-To: <31706E35-4FAC-401F-B479-205131EFE08E@comcast.net> References: <31706E35-4FAC-401F-B479-205131EFE08E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Apr 2012, mls wrote: > I cannot find codewords to the software on the application disks (I > looked through a couple of boxes), but I did come across a 3 CD set of > dedicated Nestation software disks (I have no idea if these would help > but I think they may): > > Netstation Software release 9.1 July 1998 : Multihost CD ROM You don't need codewords for the Enware/Netstation software. And you can easily use that e.g. with a Linux server (as I do) since the SW is generic for most kind of Unices. A quick search with a search enginge of your choice will reveal several places with instructions how to install the Netstation SW and configure the terminal (you basically need BOOTP/DHCP and TFTP/NFS). Here's one source for the SW: ftp://leela.pocnet.net/pub/misc/Netstation_B.09.11.tar And if you just follow the English Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_X-Terminals you'll find the following link: http://www.ductape.net/~brianm/xterm/ Christian From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Apr 11 04:26:20 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:26:20 +0200 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. In-Reply-To: <01OE5S83X6OI0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OE5S83X6OI0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120411092620.GB91874@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >There are orher problems now with that VIM Source, the files blowfish.c and > >sha356.c take very very much time to compile. I do have an account on > >Vaxmans VAX7000/820 and even on this machine the compiling was not done after > >13hrs of CPU Time. SHA356.c behaves pretty much similar. > >I'll look later this day if the compiling gets done on this machine, on my > >VS4000 the same process is running now for 12hrs on the CPU and the > >VS4000/90 isn't the slowest VAX so far as I know... > > > > Well, my curiosity got the better of me. I downloaded VIM73-69 for VMS and > attempted to compile blowfish.c on my VAX 4000/100A with VAX/VMS 7.1 and > DECC V6.4-005. I don't have MMS or MMK installed so I had to hack a little to > make it work. > > I found that after some seconds work, the compiler went into a CPU bound loop > and seemingly did nothing useful after that (unless it is thinking hard and > will come up with something useful some time from now!). > > The source is not large so I was able to find that the part that the compiler > was having difficulties with was these two lines of macros in bf_e_block(): > > F1(0) F2(1) F1(2) F2(3) F1(4) F2(5) F1(6) F2(7) > F1(8) F2(9) F1(10) F2(11) F1(12) F2(13) F1(14) F2(15) > > I found that if I commented out F1(10) F2(11) F1(12) F2(13) F1(14) F2(15) > the compile would complete in just under a minute. > > Next I tried commenting out just F2(11) F1(12) F2(13) F1(14) F2(15) > and then the compile completed in around 7 minutes. It took about the same time > if I only commented out F1(12) F2(13) F1(14) F2(15). > > If I commented only F2(13) F1(14) F2(15) the compile took nearly two hours! > > Finally, it dawned on me to try compiling the original code with /NOOPTIMISE > and this completed in 30 seconds! > > So, it appears that something in those two lines is causing the optimiser to > spend way too much time doing something. > > At least the good news is that if you compile blowfish.c (and perhaps sha356.c) > without optimisation, it should be possible to get it done in a reasonable > amount of time. Maybe the compile you are currently running will also complete > eventually. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Nice to hear.. The mms default call to cc is like this: cc /def=("FEAT_NORMAL","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF" ) /opt/prefix=all /include=([.proto],decw$include:) BUFFER.C Interestingls help cc/opt onli has those documented options: CC /OPTIMIZE /OPTIMIZE[=option] (D) /NOOPTIMIZE Controls whether or not the compiler performs code optimization. /OPTIMIZE has the following options: [NO]DISJOINT Directs the compiler to optimize the generated machine code. [NO]INLINE Specifies whether the compiler is allowed to perform the function inline optimization. So my question is, what should /opt/prefix=all so in this case? Yes, I have compiled the entire source with the crypto features commented out, and yes I can compile blowfish.c with that cmdline: $ cc /def=("FEAT_NORMAL","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF" ) /NOOPT /include=([.proto],decw$include:) BLOWFISH.C ..and it compiles sha256.c too. Is there further documentation about the compiler optimizations somwhere available? Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 11 04:44:13 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 02:44:13 -0700 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 11, at 1:23 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The > transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as > "XA 55 PNP 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. The basic specs for the common Motorola MPS-A55 are, in summary: Polarity: PNP Power Dissipation Pd: 500 mW Material: Si (Silicon) C-E voltage Vceo: 60 V Current Gain hFE: 50 Package: TO-92 Well, it used to be common at least (in the 70s & early-80s, i.e. when the 11/24 was made). Just a suggestion. I'd elaborate some more but it's very late. > I have tried to find specs for > an A55 and can only find partial matches, so I am not sure what > today's > equivalent would be. Can anyone help me work out what the > equivalent today > would be? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 11 05:15:41 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:15:41 +0100 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: 11 April 2012 10:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor > > On 2012 Apr 11, at 1:23 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The > > transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as "XA 55 > > PNP 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. > > The basic specs for the common Motorola MPS-A55 are, in summary: > Polarity: PNP > Power Dissipation Pd: 500 mW > Material: Si (Silicon) > C-E voltage Vceo: 60 V > Current Gain hFE: 50 > Package: TO-92 > Thanks for helping me decipher the spec. I have identified some transistors with similar specs (e.g. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/general-purpose-transistor/7390492/), but the current gain hFE is higher at 100. Not sure if it is better for the hFE to be higher or lower than the required spec. > Well, it used to be common at least (in the 70s & early-80s, i.e. > when the 11/24 was made). > > Just a suggestion. I'd elaborate some more but it's very late. > > > > I have tried to find specs for > > an A55 and can only find partial matches, so I am not sure what > > today's equivalent would be. Can anyone help me work out what the > > equivalent today would be? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 11 05:47:46 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:47:46 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: References: <00b901cd15c6$fed14d50$fc73e7f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 8, 12 09:34:25 pm Message-ID: <029601cd17d0$89a6aa50$9cf3fef0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 09 April 2012 18:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Disk Not Rotating > > > I hope I haven't made a mistake here. Rather than go to Farnell where > > I need a minimum order amount, I looked on Ebay and found someone > with > > some TIP125s there. > > I had assumed they were all the same and just chose this one: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TIP125-Transistor- > /290672643190?pt=LH_Defaul > > tDomai > > n_3&hash=item43ad708c76. > > From what I can see, those are the right parts. > > In gneral, if diffenrent manufacturers use the same part numberm the > devices meet the same publsihed specs. A TIP125 from TI is the same as oen > from SGS-Thomson. In a few cases, if you go outside the pnblished specs, > the devices will behave differently, this can be a problem in things like line > output stages (CRT horizotnal output stages), but I don;t think this will be a > problem with a motor driver > > The '8702' number is almost certainly a date code. It doesn't matter. > > Sometimes you'll find suffix letters on transistor numbers. These either > indicate the approximate current gain (for example the BC109C). or the > maximum voltage it'll withstate (TIP41C) or perhaps soemthing else. > That's when you need to look up the whole number in a databook to find out > just what the versions are. But I don;t think that's a problem here either. > > -tony Just in case anyone is interested, replacing the failed Darlington transistor fixed the problem. The RD53 now spins the disk again. Thanks to everyone who helped. Regards Rob From chrise at pobox.com Wed Apr 11 06:29:39 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 06:29:39 -0500 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (04/11/2012 at 09:23AM +0100), Rob Jarratt wrote: > I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The > transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as "XA 55 PNP > 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. I have tried to find specs for > an A55 and can only find partial matches, so I am not sure what today's > equivalent would be. Can anyone help me work out what the equivalent today > would be? MPSA55G? http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=MPSA55 -- Chris Elmquist From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 06:31:37 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:31:37 -0400 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <8C6A263E-4B20-4B3A-AA86-D209862E6F69@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2012, at 6:15 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> On 2012 Apr 11, at 1:23 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >>> I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The >>> transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as "XA 55 >>> PNP 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. >> >> The basic specs for the common Motorola MPS-A55 are, in summary: >> Polarity: PNP >> Power Dissipation Pd: 500 mW >> Material: Si (Silicon) >> C-E voltage Vceo: 60 V >> Current Gain hFE: 50 >> Package: TO-92 >> > > Thanks for helping me decipher the spec. > > I have identified some transistors with similar specs (e.g. > http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/general-purpose-transistor/7390492/), but the > current gain hFE is higher at 100. Not sure if it is better for the hFE to > be higher or lower than the required spec. It's not universally true, but in *most* transistor circuits a higher gain shouldn't hurt. Just looking at those specs, the PNP equivalent to a 2N2222A should do the trick (I think it's a 2N2907A). Make sure it's the A variant, though, because the regular one only has a 40v Vce max. ...and, looking at what you've linked, that's exactly the part you picked. It's probably fine. - Dave From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 07:11:13 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:11:13 -0400 Subject: X Terminals In-Reply-To: <1334111266.77229.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4F84E605.6020405@neurotica.com> <1334111266.77229.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > I've got the NCD software for mine. I don't want > > to use them as X > > > terminals; if I wanted to do that I already would > > be. I want to run my > > > own code on them. Not for utility so much as for > > hack value. > > > > Ahh, most excellent. What processor is in > > those? A lot of X > > terminals of that era used i960s if I recall. > > The NCD X terms I have use 88k's. > > -Ian > > > Those are earlier, if I'm remembering correctly. I have one 88k-based one and several i960-based ones. Peace... Sridhar > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 07:14:43 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:14:43 -0400 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2012, at 7:29 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (04/11/2012 at 09:23AM +0100), Rob Jarratt wrote: >> I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The >> transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as "XA 55 PNP >> 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. I have tried to find specs for >> an A55 and can only find partial matches, so I am not sure what today's >> equivalent would be. Can anyone help me work out what the equivalent today >> would be? > > MPSA55G? > > http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=MPSA55 OnSemi makes a lot of older transistors (they still have half the ones needed to fix a Wurlitzer electric piano). Confusingly, the datasheet title says "NPN", but everything else says "PNP"; it's probably because the datasheet is for both the NPN devices (MPS?05) and the PNP ones. In any case, that should be a 100% correct replacement; they may be hard to find in stock abroad. I could only reliably find them at Arrow in the US when I was fixing my Wurlitzer. - Dave From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 11 07:39:13 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:39:13 -0500 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201204111250.q3BColKZ004074@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:01 PM 4/10/2012, Gene Buckle wrote: >Yep. Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish." I seem to remember CBM employees saying it was KFC as "hot dead chicken." As for how Jack's departure from Atari was intertwined with the Amiga, the Wikipedia article has an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Corporation - John From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Apr 11 07:57:05 2012 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:57:05 -0400 Subject: Terminals Wiki needs an IBM terminals expert In-Reply-To: References: <4F84A667.8050502@gmail.com> <4F84C06B.6000902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F857FA1.5010802@attglobal.net> On 04/10/2012 09:22 PM, Richard wrote: > Yeah, from reading Wikipedia, it seems they all operate at a fixed > baud rate.... which is why I was wondering if baud rate even mattered. > If it's fixed and unvarying, then there's no point in listing it in > the "infobox" for each twinax terminal as I do now for serial > terminals. On the System/3x and AS/400 Twinax terminals there was no setting for speeds. There is, however, the need to set a device ID much like you do for SCSI devices. Each port on a twinax controller could handle 8 devices, numbered 0-7. Each device connected would have it's own ID. Also, each device had a Tee connector or two female twinax ports so that you could daisy chain the devices. Early versions of these terminals would use DIP switches to set the ID. Latter versions used the setup screens in ROM. And one other thing, some of the more expensive devices could take two IDs, providing two logical devices in one physical one. Barry From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 11 08:25:00 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:25:00 +0100 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01cd17e6$806e1f70$814a5e50$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: 11 April 2012 13:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor > > On Apr 11, 2012, at 7:29 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On Wednesday (04/11/2012 at 09:23AM +0100), Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The > >> transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as "XA > >> 55 PNP 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. I have tried to > >> find specs for an A55 and can only find partial matches, so I am not > >> sure what today's equivalent would be. Can anyone help me work out > >> what the equivalent today would be? > > > > MPSA55G? > > > > http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=MPSA55 > > OnSemi makes a lot of older transistors (they still have half the ones needed > to fix a Wurlitzer electric piano). Confusingly, the datasheet title says > "NPN", but everything else says "PNP"; it's probably because the datasheet > is for both the NPN devices (MPS?05) and the PNP ones. > > In any case, that should be a 100% correct replacement; they may be hard to > find in stock abroad. I could only reliably find them at Arrow in the US when > I was fixing my Wurlitzer. > > > - Dave > Looks like there is an MPSA55 and an MPSA55G. The MPSA55 is a Darlington transistor, according to Farnell; I recently learned a little about those repairing my RD53 motor control board, and my understanding is that the gain is even higher with those. Given that it seems I need less gain than the MPSA55G provides, the straight MPSA55 would seem unnecessary. However, Farnell will charge me a lot because it has to ship them from the US to the UK. An Ebay seller here in the UK seems to have the Darlington variety, so I could get some of those sooner and cheaper. The alternative seems to be an MPS2907AG from Farnell http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1611212. What would people advise? NB This transistor is used to switch in a resistor that controls the timing of a 555 which drivers the PSU chopper transistor. If anyone wants to look, it is Q21 on p88 (in the PDF) of the H7140 printset, which is here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf. Thanks Rob From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 08:47:10 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:47:10 -0400 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <001f01cd17e6$806e1f70$814a5e50$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> <001f01cd17e6$806e1f70$814a5e50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <273BF09D-67BF-47EE-BC52-D21F63E05408@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2012, at 9:25 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Looks like there is an MPSA55 and an MPSA55G. The MPSA55 is a Darlington transistor, according to Farnell; I recently learned a little about those repairing my RD53 motor control board, and my understanding is that the gain is even higher with those. Given that it seems I need less gain than the MPSA55G provides, the straight MPSA55 would seem unnecessary. However, Farnell will charge me a lot because it has to ship them from the US to the UK. An Ebay seller here in the UK seems to have the Darlington variety, so I could get some of those sooner and cheaper. The alternative seems to be an MPS2907AG from Farnell http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1611212. > > What would people advise? Darlingtons are not 100% replacements for standard transistors. Among other things, the voltage drop across the base will be twice normal, which could screw up the biasing for something designed around 0.7V drops. There's a reason (well, a few) that they're not used everywhere. Looking at that page of the schematic, it looks carefully biased. A casual examination leads me to believe that it's biased to trigger the discharge of the 555 when its base voltage reaches a certain level (i.e. a crude switching power supply), but I could be entirely wrong about that; I only looked for a few minutes. In any case, given how expensive 1% resistors were in 1978, I'd venture to say that you probably wouldn't want to upset the bias point by swapping in a Darlington pair. - Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 11 09:21:49 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:21:49 +0100 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <273BF09D-67BF-47EE-BC52-D21F63E05408@gmail.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> <001f01cd17e6$806e1f70$814a5e50$@ntlworld.com> <273BF09D-67BF-47EE-BC52-D21F63E05408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002901cd17ee$7059efd0$510dcf70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: 11 April 2012 14:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor > > On Apr 11, 2012, at 9:25 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > Looks like there is an MPSA55 and an MPSA55G. The MPSA55 is a > Darlington transistor, according to Farnell; I recently learned a little about > those repairing my RD53 motor control board, and my understanding is that > the gain is even higher with those. Given that it seems I need less gain than > the MPSA55G provides, the straight MPSA55 would seem unnecessary. > However, Farnell will charge me a lot because it has to ship them from the > US to the UK. An Ebay seller here in the UK seems to have the Darlington > variety, so I could get some of those sooner and cheaper. The alternative > seems to be an MPS2907AG from Farnell > http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1611212. > > > > What would people advise? > > Darlingtons are not 100% replacements for standard transistors. Among > other things, the voltage drop across the base will be twice normal, which > could screw up the biasing for something designed around 0.7V drops. > There's a reason (well, a few) that they're not used everywhere. > > Looking at that page of the schematic, it looks carefully biased. > A casual examination leads me to believe that it's biased to trigger the > discharge of the 555 when its base voltage reaches a certain level (i.e. a > crude switching power supply), but I could be entirely wrong about that; I > only looked for a few minutes. In any case, given how expensive 1% > resistors were in 1978, I'd venture to say that you probably wouldn't want to > upset the bias point by swapping in a Darlington pair. > > > - Dave > Thanks, hadn't thought about that! I won't use the MPS055 then for sure. Regards Rob From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Apr 11 09:25:40 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 07:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore Amiga arketing Re: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1334154340.69492.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- >Correct.? The marketing failures fell at the feet of Irving Gould and the >rest of his little f*cktard lackeys. Agreed.. Does anyone remember Harry Copperman? He came in and tried to actually market the machine.. That was the time of the Amiga Unix box, The Lowell card, Amiga TCP/IP, The "Stevie" ad campaign and Multimedia Live. Commodore was willing to spend money to market it, then they "promoted" him and it all went to hell. I actually did some work for the ad agency Messner Vetere Berger Carey Schmetterer on that campaign. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 11 10:01:02 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:01:02 -0600 Subject: X Terminals In-Reply-To: <1334111266.77229.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1334111266.77229.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1334111266.77229.YahooMailClassic at web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > The NCD X terms I have use 88k's. Yeah, those are the later ones. Mine are the older ones that use Motorola 68000s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 11 10:06:22 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:06:22 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <01OE6389GXB60012HE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OE6389GXB60012HE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: In article <01OE6389GXB60012HE at beyondthepale.ie>, Peter Coghlan writes: > Well done - this looks like it will be a useful reference point. Thanks! We used to be able to get lots of tidbits from Shuford's WWW site, then that was removed. The files were restored to a public FTP area, but all the HTML links are busted because he didn't use relative paths in the links. Then we had vt100.net and came to rely on it and manx and then that disappeared for a while (it's back up now, but who knows how long that will last). Jay West graciously provides the hosting and he's pretty reliable :), so I think this will last quite a while. Also, unlike the other two sites I mentioned, this allows community updating since it is a wiki, so it doesn't all fall on one person to keep going. Although what you see currently is entirely the result of my efforts so far. > I have a user guide for an ICL model 6402 Character Display Terminal which > I used in 1988. I would be happy to scan this for bitsavers, if you would like to snail mail it to me. I'll send you a private reply with my address. > I am looking for a maintenance manual for a Lear Siegler ADM-5. [...] I have two of these but haven't turned up any manuals for them (user or service) so far. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 11 10:32:22 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: <01OE6389GXB60012HE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OE6389GXB60012HE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <201204111532.LAA17895@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have a user guide for an ICL model 6402 [...]. It may be > compatible with a Televideo 950 (or maybe 925). I have a TeleVideo 955 with manual. It's a neat terminal. It's got three socketed ROMs: one for the character generator, one for the firmware, and a third one for user-supplied firmware, which the manual documents an escape sequence to invoke. (The manual documents the signature expected for the ROM but doesn't describe any of the other things someone would need to write a user-supplied ROM.) As supplied, the third one contains a rudimentary calculator, but it's replaceable. The CPU is a stock part and its markings are visible, at least in my unit, so it was fairly easy to pull the firmware ROM and dump out the code - the CPU is a G65SC802, basically a 6502 but with some improvements. Studying it taught me enough to put a small videogame in the user-supplied ROM. (A friend of mine, on seeing that, started asking me when he was going to see NetBSD/tvi955 running on it. :) I also pulled the character-generator ROM and replaced it with flying leads to a solderless breadboard where I surrounded a RAM chip with logic so I could steal it from character generator duty to write to it. Accesses to it were fast enough that the flying leads introduced a lot of read errors, and stealing it for writes introduced more, but for character-generator duties read errors are relatively tolerable; they just produce snow on the screen. And it gave me downloadable character bitmaps, which was a fun hack. (When the character being downloaded is visible on the screen, it's particularly neat to watch the download happen, with all those glyphs changing as it proceeds.) I eventually replaced the ROM so as to give it a proper 8859-1 character set rather than the kinda-sorta-almost-8859-1 it came with. In any case, the main reason I'm writing is to offer to scan the manual if that would help. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 01:28:49 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 01:28:49 -0500 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Jeffrey Brace wrote: >>> While his lack of marketing may have been his weakness, getting product >>> out the door on time and under cost was a remarkable feat. > > >> The C64 and Vic 20 seemed to be marketed ok, but maybe you mean the PETs? > > > I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed. > Jack had nothing to do with the Amiga. He's probably referring to Jack's company Atari Corporation and the claimed lack of marketing on things like the Atari 7800, Jaguar, etc. As Curt can tell you though, they actually poured a significant amount of money in to marketing. > >> One thing that interests me is why the early Commodore products, like the >> PET, did so well in Europe as opposed to North America? ?Was it just a >> lack >> of competition in Europe in that Tandy, Atari and Apple didn't focus on >> that market in the late 1970s? > > > From what I read it was the guy in England who was driving the sales and was > very good at it. He had built upon a reputation from Commodore's Calculator > Days. > > Jeff Brace -- Marty From jonas at otter.se Wed Apr 11 06:47:24 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:47:24 +0200 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 104, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44d2656ffd69068f8eababd81ff01bfb@otter.se> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:23:49 +0100, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > > I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The > transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as "XA > 55 PNP > 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. I have tried to find > specs for > an A55 and can only find partial matches, so I am not sure what > today's > equivalent would be. Can anyone help me work out what the equivalent > today > would be? > > Thanks > > Rob Sounds like a 60V, 500mW device. BC556, MPSA-56. A BC161 might also work, except it is in a TO-39 case, or a 2N2907 in a TO-18 case. Looking at the printset on vt100.net, none of the A55 transistors appear to be doing anything terribly demanding, so any of the above ought to work. /Jonas From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Apr 11 06:57:12 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:57:12 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Camtec jnt pad Message-ID: <01OE6Y009X9A00256P@beyondthepale.ie> > >Its a X25 Packet/Assembler/Dissasembler. It allows ordinary Async >Terminals to be connected to an X.25 network. In the UK all Universities >had such networks under the umbrella of JANET. Some at Janet probably >has a manual. I have forgotten almost every thing I know about them. I >have asked one of my former colleagues if he has any info. > These were also to be found in Irish Universities where early networking was also X.25 based. I have a small stash of X.25 capable kit which I have no real interest in. It is available for free to anyone interested and is located in Dublin, Ireland. I would prefer collection but will consider shipping if someone is really keen. Among the bits and pieces are two Satelcom X.25 switches. Both are marked MegaPAC E but they are different sizes. Also a DEC DEMSA and two DEMSB X.25 routers (manufactured in DEC's former facility in Clonmel, Ireland) and some cables. And the connection with this thread? The DEMSA has a sticker on one of the ports which says "Camtec". Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Apr 11 06:52:58 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:52:58 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. Message-ID: <01OE6V7CF6NW0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >The mms default call to cc is like this: >cc /def=("FEAT_NORMAL","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF" ) /opt/prefix=all >/include=([.proto],decw$include:) BUFFER.C > Hopefully, it should be possible to get MMS to not optimise when compiling blowfish.c and sha256.c and to optimise when doing the other compilations. I am not familiar enough with MMS to know how to do this. Alternatively, if you compile the two files involved outside of MMS, you will also need to perform the link step afterwards. > >Interestingls help cc/opt onli has those documented options: > >CC > > /OPTIMIZE > > /OPTIMIZE[=option] (D) > /NOOPTIMIZE > > Controls whether or not the compiler performs code optimization. > /OPTIMIZE has the following options: > > [NO]DISJOINT Directs the compiler to optimize the generated > machine code. > > [NO]INLINE Specifies whether the compiler is allowed to perform > the function inline optimization. > >So my question is, what should /opt/prefix=all so in this case? > /prefix=all is not related to optimisation - the author has just put the two qualifiers next to each other. /prefix=all directs the compiler add the prefix "decc$" in front of the names of all runtime library functions. I have tested further and it appears that /optimise=disjoint is triggering the problem. > >Yes, I have compiled the entire source with the crypto features commented >out, and yes I can compile blowfish.c with that cmdline: > >$ cc /def=("FEAT_NORMAL","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF" ) /NOOPT >/include=([.proto],decw$include:) BLOWFISH.C > >..and it compiles sha256.c too. > Great. You may need to compile them with /prefix=all added to the command line if problems show up with names of runtime library functions at link time. However, I suspect that /prefix=all is probably the default anyway. You should be able to use a command line like: $ cc /def=("FEAT_NORMAL","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF" ) /prefix=all /include=([.proto],decw$include:) /optimise=(inline,nodisjoint) BLOWFISH.C > >Is there further documentation about the compiler optimizations somwhere >available? > There could be slightly more detail about optimisation in the compiler manual but it is highly unlightly that the manual would list additional command line qualifiers that are not documented in the online help. The online help comes with the compiler and normally documents all the available qualifiers. The alpha (and presumably ia64) compilers are quite different to the VAX compilers internally and may have different options relating to optimisation so it is important to consult the correct manual. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Apr 11 09:43:23 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:43:23 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating Message-ID: <01OE74BORZYE0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >Just in case anyone is interested, replacing the failed Darlington >transistor fixed the problem. The RD53 now spins the disk again. Thanks to >everyone who helped. > Some people enjoy repairing things. I find it a bit of a drudge. What I enjoy is the feeling of satisfaction when a repair succeeds :-) Well done to all involved. I am now looking with renewed interest at my pile of doorstops which once spun. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 11 10:56:38 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:56:38 -0500 Subject: Old days of the Amiga Message-ID: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the first public developer's conference, a CES, a show in San Francisco, the first AmiExpo in New York... https://plus.google.com/photos/117735836648635794619/albums/5730165271927312577?authkey=CJe3-Ibk68ua_wE - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 11:58:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120411095652.K3413@shell.lmi.net> > >> I think he means the Amiga. It was poorly marketed. > > Yep. ?Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold > > sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish." On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Kelly Fergason wrote: > Except he was at Atari when the Amiga came out. Was the ST marketed like cold dead fish? From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 12:01:28 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:01:28 -0700 Subject: HP-UX 10.20 B4474FA Netstation Software Codeword? In-Reply-To: References: <31706E35-4FAC-401F-B479-205131EFE08E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 1:56 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > You don't need codewords for the Enware/Netstation software. And you can > easily use that e.g. with a Linux server (as I do) since the SW is generic > for most kind of Unices. A quick search with a search enginge of your choice > will reveal several places with instructions how to install the Netstation > SW and configure the terminal (you basically need BOOTP/DHCP and TFTP/NFS). > Here's one source for the SW: > ftp://leela.pocnet.net/pub/misc/Netstation_B.09.11.tar > And if you just follow the English Wikipedia article > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_X-Terminals > you'll find the following link: http://www.ductape.net/~brianm/xterm/ > I did do some searching before asking, and I did find this web page and did take a look at it: http://www.ductape.net/~brianm/xterm/ These links on that web page are broken: generic.img.gz (25mb) Generic install image for *nix systems install.gen (3.6Kb) Installation script install.how (10Kb) Brief documentation on the installation procedure (See the section on 'Generic Installs') I also found other people looking for the software, such as this instance: http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/Workstations-Itanium-Based/Netstation-B-09-11/td-p/2840817 But that refers to an HP FTP site that is no longer there: hprc.external.hp.com/xgraphic/enware I'll see if I can access this. I can't at the moment: ftp://leela.pocnet.net/pub/misc/Netstation_B.09.11.tar For my purposes it might be moot at this point as someone has offered to send me copies of the installation CDs. Much appreciated. -Glen From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Apr 11 12:04:52 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:04:52 -0700 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> On 11 Apr 2012, at 8:56 AM, John Foust wrote: > > Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the > first public developer's conference, a CES, a show in San Francisco, > the first AmiExpo in New York... Oh man, were we young then. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 12:30:50 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:30:50 +0100 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> On 11 Apr 2012, at 18:04, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > On 11 Apr 2012, at 8:56 AM, John Foust wrote: > >> >> Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the >> first public developer's conference, a CES, a show in San Francisco, >> the first AmiExpo in New York... > > Oh man, were we young then. Yeah, I was a bout 7 years old :). Any idea what this; https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zUQg2Dqo61g/T4WkL4rTEjI/AAAAAAAAASg/h5yeOm85t9E/s1120/00881.JPG actually is? It's sitting in an Amiga 2000 chassis (or a generic full PC AT desktop box) and has all manner of weird things plugged in! -- Mark Benson My Blog: Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/mdbenson "Never send a human to do a machine's job..." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 11 12:38:30 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:38:30 -0600 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F85C196.8040506@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/11/2012 11:30 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > Any idea what this; > > https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zUQg2Dqo61g/T4WkL4rTEjI/AAAAAAAAASg/h5yeOm85t9E/s1120/00881.JPG > > actually is? It's sitting in an Amiga 2000 chassis (or a generic full > PC AT desktop box) and has all manner of weird things plugged in! > > I thought the whole thing was flop! I guess now (2012) is the time to be PC compatible, with Intel inside. Ben. From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 12:44:03 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:44:03 +0100 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Oh and, for what it's worth, I am the secretary of one of the UK's few surviving Amiga user groups, LAG: http://lincsamiga.org.uk On 11 Apr 2012, at 16:56, John Foust wrote: > Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the > first public developer's conference, a CES, a show in San Francisco, > the first AmiExpo in New York... > > https://plus.google.com/photos/117735836648635794619/albums/5730165271927312577?authkey=CJe3-Ibk68ua_wE -- Mark Benson My Blog: Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/mdbenson "Never send a human to do a machine's job..." From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 11 12:44:30 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:44:30 -0500 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204111745.q3BHj9mO013074@billy.ezwind.net> At 12:30 PM 4/11/2012, Mark Benson wrote: >Any idea what this; > >https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zUQg2Dqo61g/T4WkL4rTEjI/AAAAAAAAASg/h5yeOm85t9E/s1120/00881.JPG > >actually is? It's sitting in an Amiga 2000 chassis (or a generic full >PC AT desktop box) and has all manner of weird things plugged in! I think it's the Amiga 3000 prototype. I have other pictures of it. One shows a paper sticker on the case that says "Amiga 3000." I think the upright slot is the Lowell graphics card. - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 11 12:49:14 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 10:49:14 -0700 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <002901cd17ee$7059efd0$510dcf70$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> <001f01cd17e6$806e1f70$814a5e50$@ntlworld.com> <273BF09D-67BF-47EE-BC52-D21F63E05408@gmail.com> <002901cd17ee$7059efd0$510dcf70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0D41B450-1081-4FE5-B012-CC15E5CA8DD4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 11, at 7:21 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley >> Sent: 11 April 2012 14:47 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor >> >> On Apr 11, 2012, at 9:25 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >>> Looks like there is an MPSA55 and an MPSA55G. The MPSA55 is a >> Darlington transistor, according to Farnell; I recently learned a >> little > about >> those repairing my RD53 motor control board, and my understanding >> is that >> the gain is even higher with those. Given that it seems I need >> less gain > than >> the MPSA55G provides, the straight MPSA55 would seem unnecessary. >> However, Farnell will charge me a lot because it has to ship them >> from the >> US to the UK. An Ebay seller here in the UK seems to have the >> Darlington >> variety, so I could get some of those sooner and cheaper. The >> alternative >> seems to be an MPS2907AG from Farnell >> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1611212. >>> >>> What would people advise? >> >> Darlingtons are not 100% replacements for standard transistors. >> Among >> other things, the voltage drop across the base will be twice >> normal, which >> could screw up the biasing for something designed around 0.7V drops. >> There's a reason (well, a few) that they're not used everywhere. >> >> Looking at that page of the schematic, it looks carefully biased. >> A casual examination leads me to believe that it's biased to >> trigger the >> discharge of the 555 when its base voltage reaches a certain level >> (i.e. a >> crude switching power supply), but I could be entirely wrong about >> that; I >> only looked for a few minutes. In any case, given how expensive 1% >> resistors were in 1978, I'd venture to say that you probably >> wouldn't want > to >> upset the bias point by swapping in a Darlington pair. >> >> - Dave >> > Thanks, hadn't thought about that! I won't use the MPS055 then for > sure. ^ \-- I take it that's a typo Farnell's web page is wrong. MPS-A55 is a simple bipolar PNP, not a Darlington. Everything I see suggests the MPS-A55 is the intended transistor type, but as others have said the app does not appear heavily demanding and anything meeting the basic specs should do. I expect the 2907 you listed earlier will be fine. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 12:56:02 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:56:02 -0500 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F85C5B2.8000805@gmail.com> On 04/11/2012 10:56 AM, John Foust wrote: > > Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the > first public developer's conference, a CES, a show in San Francisco, > the first AmiExpo in New York... > > https://plus.google.com/photos/117735836648635794619/albums/5730165271927312577?authkey=CJe3-Ibk68ua_wE I'm not sure if I can link to individual photos, but I do like 6th row down, third from left - that appears to be a PCB balanced on some cardboard, and a pointy finger, and someone else trying to inform the pointy finger that it's about to make a very expensive mistake :-) cheers Jules From ryan at hack.net Wed Apr 11 12:57:44 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:57:44 -0500 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> Message-ID: <89759A8E-BBD1-4F7A-947F-42D947AD4315@hack.net> That's an interesting pic. SIMMs instead of ZIPs, some sort of VLSI extra thing next to a more production looking plcc, lots of programmable logic. 030/882 on the motherboard. And is that a TI something graphics card? All this Amiga talk is depressing. On Apr 11, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Mark Benson wrote: > > On 11 Apr 2012, at 18:04, Christian Kennedy wrote: > >> >> On 11 Apr 2012, at 8:56 AM, John Foust wrote: >> >>> >>> Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the >>> first public developer's conference, a CES, a show in San Francisco, >>> the first AmiExpo in New York... >> >> Oh man, were we young then. > > Yeah, I was a bout 7 years old :). > > Any idea what this; > > https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zUQg2Dqo61g/T4WkL4rTEjI/AAAAAAAAASg/h5yeOm85t9E/s1120/00881.JPG > > actually is? It's sitting in an Amiga 2000 chassis (or a generic full > PC AT desktop box) and has all manner of weird things plugged in! > > > -- > Mark Benson > > My Blog: > > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/mdbenson > > "Never send a human to do a machine's job..." > > > > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Apr 11 13:09:14 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:09:14 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <201204111250.q3BColKZ004074@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> <201204111250.q3BColKZ004074@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F85C8CA.9060003@atarimuseum.com> Not entirely accurate: "One of Tramiel's first acts after forming Atari Corp. was to fire most of Atari's remaining staff and cancel almost all ongoing projects in order to review their continued viability. It was during this time in late July that Tramiel's representatives discovered the original Atari Inc./Amiga contract. " Jack never fired anyone, his company - TTL (Tramiel Technologies Limited) bought assets and IP from Warner as well as the Atari name and logo. Warner retained the remainder of the company as well as the employee's. Jack spent 2 weeks interviewing and HIRING Atari employee's to work at TTL which was renamed Atari Corp, so the Warner-Atari employees came over to work at a new company called Atari Corp. Those who weren't selected, Warner fired them... "Tramiels representatives..." no, Tramiels son - Leonard Tramiel found the cashed check to Amiga for $500,000 from Mar 3, 1984 and then located the contract between Atari and Amiga for the $500K advance to continue the chip work and development of the Amiga while giving Atari engineers access to the technical information as well as "tape outs" located in an Escrow account at a bank until Amiga delivered the finished chips. The full details, including David Morse's own court testimony will be in our 2nd Atari History book in December called "Business is War: Atari Corp." There was a LOT more going on behind the scene's then people realize and RJ Mical's complete mis-recounting of the story which he publicly admits "do you want the truth or a good story, I prefer a good story" are completely corrected in the book.... Curt John Foust wrote: > At 11:01 PM 4/10/2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Yep. Commodore Marketing was so bad it was once said that if Commodore sold sushi, they'd advertise it as "cold, dead, fish." >> > > I seem to remember CBM employees saying it was KFC as "hot dead chicken." > > As for how Jack's departure from Atari was intertwined with the Amiga, > the Wikipedia article has an overview: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Corporation > > - John > > From bear at typewritten.org Wed Apr 11 13:18:31 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:18:31 -0700 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <4F85C196.8040506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> <4F85C196.8040506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/11/2012 11:30 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > Any idea what this; > > https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zUQg2Dqo61g/T4WkL4rTEjI/AAAAAAAAASg/h5yeOm85t9E/s1120/00881.JPG > > actually is? It's sitting in an Amiga 2000 chassis (or a generic full > PC AT desktop box) and has all manner of weird things plugged in! Looks to me like pretty standard guts from a Macintosh II. ok bear. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 11 13:24:00 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:24:00 -0700 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 11, at 3:15 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert >> Sent: 11 April 2012 10:44 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor >> >> On 2012 Apr 11, at 1:23 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >>> I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The >>> transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as >>> "XA 55 >>> PNP 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. >> >> The basic specs for the common Motorola MPS-A55 are, in summary: >> Polarity: PNP >> Power Dissipation Pd: 500 mW >> Material: Si (Silicon) >> C-E voltage Vceo: 60 V >> Current Gain hFE: 50 >> Package: TO-92 >> > > Thanks for helping me decipher the spec. > > I have identified some transistors with similar specs (e.g. > http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/general-purpose-transistor/7390492/), > but the > current gain hFE is higher at 100. Not sure if it is better for the > hFE to > be higher or lower than the required spec. Generally you want the hFE to be same or higher. Gains vary widely even for the same type of transistor, the hFE spec is a minimum, the usual idea is the design will need a minimum gain to work and variation will be dealt with through either feedback to fix the gain at a designed level (analog apps), or base-current overdrive (switching/digital apps). A couple additional comments on transistors: - That there are tens of thousands of transistor types has more to do with history and manufacturing processes and economies than it does with functional necessity or distinction. This is displayed by the replacement-transistor suppliers such as NTE/ECG which are able to operate by mapping the specs for those tens of thousands down into a few hundred different types. - The suffix letter can mean many things, I expect it may even mean different things for different manufacturers. For OnSemi it appears the G suffix (MPSA55 vs MPSA55G) indicates the lead-free variant. I ran across a situation recently where the suffix letter indicated a different pinout (EBC vs ECB) on the same TO-92 package. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 11 13:48:50 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:48:50 +0100 Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <01OE74BORZYE0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OE74BORZYE0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <003f01cd1813$bddd61e0$399825a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan > Sent: 11 April 2012 15:43 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Disk Not Rotating > > > > >Just in case anyone is interested, replacing the failed Darlington > >transistor fixed the problem. The RD53 now spins the disk again. Thanks > >to everyone who helped. > > > > Some people enjoy repairing things. I find it a bit of a drudge. > What I enjoy is the feeling of satisfaction when a repair succeeds :-) > > Well done to all involved. > > I am now looking with renewed interest at my pile of doorstops which once > spun. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. When, like me, you don't know a lot about electronics beyond some theoretical study as a student many years ago, it is especially satisfying to make a repair like this. With regard to your doorstops, if they are RD5x disks then I would be more than happy to take them off your hands :-) Alternatively, I can share what little I know about getting them working again (mainly RD53). Regards Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 11 13:54:57 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:54:57 -0700 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <4F85C8CA.9060003@atarimuseum.com> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> <201204111250.q3BColKZ004074@billy.ezwind.net> <4F85C8CA.9060003@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <8E3C9157-C051-49DD-A13C-CBD50F13CF9B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 11, at 11:09 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Not entirely accurate: > > "One of Tramiel's first acts after forming Atari Corp. was to fire > most of Atari's remaining staff and cancel almost all ongoing > projects in order to review their continued viability. It was > during this time in late July that Tramiel's representatives > discovered the original Atari Inc./Amiga contract. " > > Jack never fired anyone, his company - TTL (Tramiel Technologies > Limited) bought assets and IP from Warner as well as the Atari name > and logo. Warner retained the remainder of the company as well as > the employee's. Jack spent 2 weeks interviewing and HIRING Atari > employee's to work at TTL which was renamed Atari Corp, so the > Warner-Atari employees came over to work at a new company called > Atari Corp. Those who weren't selected, Warner fired them... > > "Tramiels representatives..." no, Tramiels son - Leonard Tramiel > found the cashed check to Amiga for $500,000 from Mar 3, 1984 and > then located the contract between Atari and Amiga for the $500K > advance to continue the chip work and development of the Amiga > while giving Atari engineers access to the technical information as > well as "tape outs" located in an Escrow account at a bank until > Amiga delivered the finished chips. The full details, > including David Morse's own court testimony will be in our 2nd > Atari History book in December called "Business is War: Atari > Corp." There was a LOT more going on behind the scene's then > people realize and RJ Mical's complete mis-recounting of the story > which he publicly admits "do you want the truth or a good story, I > prefer a good story" are completely corrected in the book.... I never followed the details of the intertwined Commodore/Atari business history, but the part I've never really heard discussed much is how Commodore successfully transitioned from calculators to personal computers. Calculator manufactures were dropping like flies in the mid-70's as calculators became a low-cost commodity business, Commodore was one of the few that managed to migrate to and thrive in a new business and market. Strikes me it took some astuteness to accomplish that. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 11 14:00:28 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:00:28 +0100 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <0D41B450-1081-4FE5-B012-CC15E5CA8DD4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> <001f01cd17e6$806e1f70$814a5e50$@ntlworld.com> <273BF09D-67BF-47EE-BC52-D21F63E05408@gmail.com> <002901cd17ee$7059efd0$510dcf70$@ntlworld.com> <0D41B450-1081-4FE5-B012-CC15E5CA8DD4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <004001cd1815$5e0de080$1a29a180$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: 11 April 2012 18:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor > > On 2012 Apr 11, at 7:21 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > >> Sent: 11 April 2012 14:47 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor > >> > >> On Apr 11, 2012, at 9:25 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> > >>> Looks like there is an MPSA55 and an MPSA55G. The MPSA55 is a > >> Darlington transistor, according to Farnell; I recently learned a > >> little > > about > >> those repairing my RD53 motor control board, and my understanding is > >> that the gain is even higher with those. Given that it seems I need > >> less gain > > than > >> the MPSA55G provides, the straight MPSA55 would seem unnecessary. > >> However, Farnell will charge me a lot because it has to ship them > >> from the US to the UK. An Ebay seller here in the UK seems to have > >> the Darlington variety, so I could get some of those sooner and > >> cheaper. The alternative seems to be an MPS2907AG from Farnell > >> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1611212. > >>> > >>> What would people advise? > >> > >> Darlingtons are not 100% replacements for standard transistors. > >> Among > >> other things, the voltage drop across the base will be twice normal, > >> which could screw up the biasing for something designed around 0.7V > >> drops. > >> There's a reason (well, a few) that they're not used everywhere. > >> > >> Looking at that page of the schematic, it looks carefully biased. > >> A casual examination leads me to believe that it's biased to trigger > >> the discharge of the 555 when its base voltage reaches a certain > >> level (i.e. a crude switching power supply), but I could be entirely > >> wrong about that; I only looked for a few minutes. In any case, > >> given how expensive 1% resistors were in 1978, I'd venture to say > >> that you probably wouldn't want > > to > >> upset the bias point by swapping in a Darlington pair. > >> > >> - Dave > >> > > Thanks, hadn't thought about that! I won't use the MPS055 then for > > sure. > ^ > \-- I take it that's a typo > > Farnell's web page is wrong. MPS-A55 is a simple bipolar PNP, not a > Darlington. > > Everything I see suggests the MPS-A55 is the intended transistor type, but as > others have said the app does not appear heavily demanding and anything > meeting the basic specs should do. I expect the 2907 you listed earlier will > be fine. Thanks for that. I am left wondering about one thing though. I believe the c-e resistance of the transistor will have a material effect on the frequency of the oscillation of the 555, which is controlling the chopper transistor of a switched mode PSU. I don't know how this resistance might vary between different transistors and how this might affect the chopper and the PSU as a whole. The reason I think it affects the oscillation is as follows: The transistor switches in a resistor that affects the 555's timing. Before the failure of the transistor in question the 555 oscillated at about 28KHz. After the failure it oscillates at about 14KHz. As a test, using just a 9V battery, I shorted the C-E terminals of the transistor with a piece of wire just to bring the switched resistor back into the circuit; when I do this the 555 oscillates at 33KHz, so the transistor must be adding resistance that influences the timing. Regards Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 14:03:11 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:03:11 -0500 Subject: archives of Tandy manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 12:49 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I seem to recall bitsavers.org keeping old Tandy manuals, but I must have > been mistaken or something changed. ?Who collects these? ?I just now noticed > that the scans I made of the TRS-80 PT-210 user and service manuals are > nowhere to be found through Google. I went on a similar hunt just recently. I've got a room full of Tandy stuff to be scanned. Wanted to see what was already out there to avoid duplicating effort but foundvery little. Even Ira Goldklang's site doesn't have much in the way of manuals (that I could find.) Ill be posting my scans at chiclassiccomp.org. Would be happy to host yours there, too. -- jht From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Apr 11 14:09:45 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:09:45 -0400 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <8E3C9157-C051-49DD-A13C-CBD50F13CF9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> <201204111250.q3BColKZ004074@billy.ezwind.net> <4F85C8CA.9060003@atarimuseum.com> <8E3C9157-C051-49DD-A13C-CBD50F13CF9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F85D6F9.1050305@atarimuseum.com> Don't really know, there is a great book on Commodore that came out not long ago... I'm an Atari guy ;-) Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Apr 11, at 11:09 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Not entirely accurate: >> >> "One of Tramiel's first acts after forming Atari Corp. was to fire >> most of Atari's remaining staff and cancel almost all ongoing >> projects in order to review their continued viability. It was during >> this time in late July that Tramiel's representatives discovered the >> original Atari Inc./Amiga contract. " >> >> Jack never fired anyone, his company - TTL (Tramiel Technologies >> Limited) bought assets and IP from Warner as well as the Atari name >> and logo. Warner retained the remainder of the company as well as >> the employee's. Jack spent 2 weeks interviewing and HIRING Atari >> employee's to work at TTL which was renamed Atari Corp, so the >> Warner-Atari employees came over to work at a new company called >> Atari Corp. Those who weren't selected, Warner fired them... >> >> "Tramiels representatives..." no, Tramiels son - Leonard Tramiel >> found the cashed check to Amiga for $500,000 from Mar 3, 1984 and >> then located the contract between Atari and Amiga for the $500K >> advance to continue the chip work and development of the Amiga while >> giving Atari engineers access to the technical information as well as >> "tape outs" located in an Escrow account at a bank until Amiga >> delivered the finished chips. The full details, including David >> Morse's own court testimony will be in our 2nd Atari History book in >> December called "Business is War: Atari Corp." There was a LOT >> more going on behind the scene's then people realize and RJ Mical's >> complete mis-recounting of the story which he publicly admits "do you >> want the truth or a good story, I prefer a good story" are completely >> corrected in the book.... > > I never followed the details of the intertwined Commodore/Atari > business history, but the part I've never really heard discussed much > is how Commodore successfully transitioned from calculators to > personal computers. Calculator manufactures were dropping like flies > in the mid-70's as calculators became a low-cost commodity business, > Commodore was one of the few that managed to migrate to and thrive in > a new business and market. Strikes me it took some astuteness to > accomplish that. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 11 14:09:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:09:58 -0400 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F85D706.3050609@neurotica.com> On 04/11/2012 06:15 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> I need to replace a transistor in my H7140 PSU for my PDP11/24. The >>> transistor is marked GPSA55J3 and the printset identifies it as "XA 55 >>> PNP 500MW SI 60 50 P", it is in a TO-92 package. >> >> The basic specs for the common Motorola MPS-A55 are, in summary: >> Polarity: PNP >> Power Dissipation Pd: 500 mW >> Material: Si (Silicon) >> C-E voltage Vceo: 60 V >> Current Gain hFE: 50 >> Package: TO-92 >> > > Thanks for helping me decipher the spec. > > I have identified some transistors with similar specs (e.g. > http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/general-purpose-transistor/7390492/), but the > current gain hFE is higher at 100. Not sure if it is better for the hFE to > be higher or lower than the required spec. It's pretty unusual for a circuit design to rely on a specific current gain (Hfe), because it's not constant. It varies with the voltage across the transistor, and varies a good amount from transistor to transistor of the same model. Don't try too hard to match the Hfe. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 11 14:33:08 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <4F85D6F9.1050305@atarimuseum.com> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> <201204111250.q3BColKZ004074@billy.ezwind.net> <4F85C8CA.9060003@atarimuseum.com> <8E3C9157-C051-49DD-A13C-CBD50F13CF9B@cs.ubc.ca> <4F85D6F9.1050305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Apr 2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Don't really know, there is a great book on Commodore that came out not long > ago... I'm an Atari guy ;-) > That's ok, nobody's perfect. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 13:58:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:58:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is this Vadic thing ? In-Reply-To: <7B2769AD-15FE-4C35-B34C-CEF08C573F71@gmail.com> from "Kirn Gill" at Apr 10, 12 09:18:46 pm Message-ID: > > Well, I'm far too young to really be expected to get into that level of = > arcane knowledge, but I'm working on a CPU emulator for a virtual ISA = YEs, and I'm probably too young/have the wrong qualifications/am over-educated to rewind motors, make HP9800 card reader rollers, repair TTL-based processors, align disk drives or do any of the other things I do routinely ;-) FWIW, I reparied my first TTL-based minicomputer (a Philips P850 when I was a first year undergraduate. Yo uare never too young to learn :-) I know it's easy to think that they stuff you enjoy is the stuff everyone should enjoy, and that it's totally wrong to assume that. But I really would urge anyone with a serious interest in how computers _really_ worked 30-40 years ago to get a TTL-based minicomputer (Philips P800, DEC PDP8/e or PDP8/a, etc, DEC PDP11 (one of the older Unibus ones, even an HP9800 desktop 'calculator') and spend amy days wit hthe scheamtics, the microcode listings and a logic analyser. Be warned it quickly becomes addictive 'Oh, I'll come to bed when I've understood just how this darn thing skips the next instruction/handles interrupts/...' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 13:38:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:38:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: <4F8498D2.1090605@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 10, 12 09:32:18 pm Message-ID: > > Its a X25 Packet/Assembler/Dissasembler. It allows ordinary Async > > Terminals to be connected to an X.25 network. In the UK all Universities > > had such networks under the umbrella of JANET. Some at Janet probably > > has a manual. I have forgotten almost every thing I know about them. I > > have asked one of my former colleagues if he has any info. > > Or depending on the model, to an Ethernet. I've still got one here. I thought htat, strictly, that was an 'iso ether PAD', not a 'JNT PAD'. > Well, at work actually - found a few years ago when Estates wanted to I have one. I also have a full set of spare boards for it (it was given to me by somebody who thought I might need those to repair faults, I guess he didn't know how I work :-)). I've never done anything with it, one day,. perhaps... I also have a 'York Box'. This is another bit of UK network history. It's actually a BAl11-V (the small DEC Q-bux box) containing an SBC21 (single board computer), a 32KW memory board, a DPV11 (sync serial port) and a DRV11 (parallel port). It was used to conenct hosts that didn't directly support X25 to JANET. The host connected either via the parallel interface or via one of the async ports on the SBC21, the X25 link went to the DPV11. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 13:41:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:41:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: <4F849CD1.8020805@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 10, 12 09:49:21 pm Message-ID: > > I'll see if I can dig out the manual. I think i know where it is... On top of my JNT PAD is a binder with 'Camtec' on it. The problem is that on top of that is a pile of HP41 docuemtaion, a couple oh HP82161 tape drives, 6 HP41 calcualtors, etc.... I do want to extract it carefully. As ever, I don't have a scanner, but I can probably make a copy of the manual and post it. I am somewhat short of itme at the moment (my father is still in hospital :-(), but I will see what I can do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 14:12:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:12:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <029601cd17d0$89a6aa50$9cf3fef0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 11, 12 11:47:46 am Message-ID: > Just in case anyone is interested, replacing the failed Darlington > transistor fixed the problem. The RD53 now spins the disk again. Thanks to > everyone who helped. Excllent.... These ST412-interfaced hard drives are getting harder to find now, so it's a Good Thing to keep as many running as you can. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 14:15:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:15:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 11, 12 11:15:41 am Message-ID: > > The basic specs for the common Motorola MPS-A55 are, in summary: > > Polarity: PNP > > Power Dissipation Pd: 500 mW > > Material: Si (Silicon) > > C-E voltage Vceo: 60 V > > Current Gain hFE: 50 > > Package: TO-92 > > > > Thanks for helping me decipher the spec. > > I have identified some transistors with similar specs (e.g. > http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/general-purpose-transistor/7390492/), but the What's the number (not the RS order code) for that transistor? > current gain hFE is higher at 100. Not sure if it is better for the hFE to > be higher or lower than the required spec. It's a very bad idea to assume that hFE will have a particular value, it varies from transistor to transistor. So a good designer will design his circuits so that it doesn't matter too much. In general, and certainly in this application (it's part of the regulation loop of the bias supply iIRC), the higher the gain the better. So I think that transistor will be fine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 14:22:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:22:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <273BF09D-67BF-47EE-BC52-D21F63E05408@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 11, 12 09:47:10 am Message-ID: > > Darlingtons are not 100% replacements for standard transistors. Among > other things, the voltage drop across the base will be twice normal, > which could screw up the biasing for something designed around 0.7V > drops. There's a reason (well, a few) that they're not used everywhere. > > Looking at that page of the schematic, it looks carefully biased. > A casual examination leads me to believe that it's biased to trigger > the discharge of the 555 when its base voltage reaches a certain level I beleive it's part of the regulation loop of the bias supply. This PSU, overall, is rather complciated, the part in question is a small (fairly conventional) SMPSU tthat runs all the time that mains is connected to porvide power to the chopper control ICs for the nmain outputs, and also to the control logic. The associated 555 timer drives the chopper transistor for this little PSU. Q21 is some part of the regulation loop, it controls the duty cycle of that 555 based on one of the voltages in the PSU. > (i.e. a crude switching power supply), but I could be entirely wrong > about that; I only looked for a few minutes. In any case, given how > expensive 1% resistors were in 1978, I'd venture to say that you > probably wouldn't want to upset the bias point by swapping in a > Darlington pair. I would be very suppirsed it this was originally a darlington, and as such it shouldn't be replaced by one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 11 14:30:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:30:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <01OE74BORZYE0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Apr 11, 12 03:43:23 pm Message-ID: > Some people enjoy repairing things. I find it a bit of a drudge. The _repair_ is a drudge :-). Figuring out what the fault is is pleasant (it's like solving a puzzle). > What I enjoy is the feeling of satisfaction when a repair succeeds :-) Agreed... Although it can also be boring in that once a machine works properly I often loose interest in it :-) -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 14:42:35 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:42:35 -0400 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <004001cd1815$5e0de080$1a29a180$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> <001f01cd17e6$806e1f70$814a5e50$@ntlworld.com> <273BF09D-67BF-47EE-BC52-D21F63E05408@gmail.com> <002901cd17ee$7059efd0$510dcf70$@ntlworld.com> <0D41B450-1081-4FE5-B012-CC15E5CA8DD4@cs.ubc.ca> <004001cd1815$5e0de080$1a29a180$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2012, at 3:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Thanks for that. I am left wondering about one thing though. I believe the > c-e resistance of the transistor will have a material effect on the > frequency of the oscillation of the 555, which is controlling the chopper > transistor of a switched mode PSU. I don't know how this resistance might > vary between different transistors and how this might affect the chopper and > the PSU as a whole. > > The reason I think it affects the oscillation is as follows: The transistor > switches in a resistor that affects the 555's timing. Before the failure of > the transistor in question the 555 oscillated at about 28KHz. After the > failure it oscillates at about 14KHz. As a test, using just a 9V battery, I > shorted the C-E terminals of the transistor with a piece of wire just to > bring the switched resistor back into the circuit; when I do this the 555 > oscillates at 33KHz, so the transistor must be adding resistance that > influences the timing. The resistor at the emitter is actually part of the bias network, I think. You get much more accurate biasing on a BJT if you put a resistor at the emitter end as well as a Thevenin network at the base because the one at the emitter will react to gain variations and act as a form of negative feedback. Note also that the discharge pin on the 555 is an output (active low), typically tied to the ramp capacitor through a resistor (R22 in this case, 80.6K). In this case, I think the transistor is acting as a switchable constant-current source to give the capacitor voltage a linear ramp (or at least to add current to that coming in by default through R23). That, at least, would seem to jibe with the fact that you see an increased switching frequency when you short it; the cap should be ramping faster, but the discharge transistor is still going to more than overcome the current coming through R41. Bottom line, though, is that BJTs don't have a "resistance" per se across C-E like FETs do (except as a parasitic effect of their cursed physical connections). Rather, they act as a constant current device modulated by temperature and the voltage across the B-E diode (which is itself modulated by Ibe current and temperature). There is a finite minimum Vce(sat) voltage drop which you will hit when the transistor is in saturation, but I don't think you're running that way. I think either an A55 (which is a 1978 vintage transistor still produced by OnSemi) or a 2N2907 type (a more modern equivalent with the right specs where it counts) will do the trick for you rather nicely. - Dave From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 11 14:46:40 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:46:40 -0700 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <004001cd1815$5e0de080$1a29a180$@ntlworld.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <20120411112938.GF3869@n0jcf.net> <7BC8F491-7D62-44F9-9430-F7B744DDA3C1@gmail.com> <001f01cd17e6$806e1f70$814a5e50$@ntlworld.com> <273BF09D-67BF-47EE-BC52-D21F63E05408@gmail.com> <002901cd17ee$7059efd0$510dcf70$@ntlworld.com> <0D41B450-1081-4FE5-B012-CC15E5CA8DD4@cs.ubc.ca> <004001cd1815$5e0de080$1a29a180$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <98C3EF80-C923-48A3-BBB2-A46695D49AD1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 11, at 12:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Thanks for that. I am left wondering about one thing though. I > believe the > c-e resistance of the transistor will have a material effect on the > frequency of the oscillation of the 555, which is controlling the > chopper > transistor of a switched mode PSU. I don't know how this resistance > might > vary between different transistors and how this might affect the > chopper and > the PSU as a whole. > > The reason I think it affects the oscillation is as follows: The > transistor > switches in a resistor that affects the 555's timing. Before the > failure of > the transistor in question the 555 oscillated at about 28KHz. After > the > failure it oscillates at about 14KHz. As a test, using just a 9V > battery, I > shorted the C-E terminals of the transistor with a piece of wire > just to > bring the switched resistor back into the circuit; when I do this > the 555 > oscillates at 33KHz, so the transistor must be adding resistance that > influences the timing. It appears Q21 (the A55 at issue) is working in conjunction with Q21 to form a constant-current supply for the timing capacitor. (That should mostly linearise the charge ramp on the cap, but I'm not clear yet as to what the objective is there as the output from the 555 is still off-on and I haven't examined the entire power supply schematic enough to figure out where this fits in the big picture of the whole power supply. Stability perhaps, or, is that 300V through the 3.9M R a kickstart or is it regulation feedback?) The critical components in the Q21/Q22 circuit are D34, R41, R42 & R45, the transistors in operation will 'adapt' around (as determined by) the values of those components. Transistor specs vary widely (between units and with temp) and (again, generally) one doesn't design around a specific value of transistor spec - one chooses a transistor for various mins and maxes and the 'design' proper is done with more precise and stable components (R/C). (Flippantly, that's also an explanation of why digital has won: so you no longer have to sit down with a slide rule to accomplish something.) From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 14:48:32 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:48:32 -0400 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <4F85D706.3050609@neurotica.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> <4F85D706.3050609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <39C9FD8E-9440-4EDD-94EB-1644B4773329@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I have identified some transistors with similar specs (e.g. >> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/general-purpose-transistor/7390492/), but the >> current gain hFE is higher at 100. Not sure if it is better for the hFE to >> be higher or lower than the required spec. > > It's pretty unusual for a circuit design to rely on a specific current > gain (Hfe), because it's not constant. It varies with the voltage > across the transistor, and varies a good amount from transistor to > transistor of the same model. Don't try too hard to match the Hfe. "Too hard" being the key; you still want it to generally be in the same ballpark or higher (e.g. a 2N2955 would fit the bill here except for its hFE of ~15). Higher is generally better in most cases unless the design tradeoffs required to get that higher gain impede something else important (e.g. higher gain can be achieved if you don't care as much about current handling, Vce(max), noise figure, etc, or if you go with a Darlington pair which is really two transistors). I think the 2N2907 part is basically aimed at the same application area as the older A55, but it benefits from newer processes. You'll find that in a lot of transistors; I'm still a little baffled as to what the quantitative difference between a 3904 and a 4401 is aside from slightly better current capabilities on the 4401. Typically I can swap one for the other with no problem unless I'm blowing up 3904s. - Dave From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 11 14:56:20 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 12:56:20 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor References: <98C3EF80-C923-48A3-BBB2-A46695D49AD1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: Brent Hilpert > Date: 2012 April 11 12:46:40 PM PDT (CA) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor > > On 2012 Apr 11, at 12:00 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >> Thanks for that. I am left wondering about one thing though. I >> believe the >> c-e resistance of the transistor will have a material effect on the >> frequency of the oscillation of the 555, which is controlling the >> chopper >> transistor of a switched mode PSU. I don't know how this >> resistance might >> vary between different transistors and how this might affect the >> chopper and >> the PSU as a whole. >> >> The reason I think it affects the oscillation is as follows: The >> transistor >> switches in a resistor that affects the 555's timing. Before the >> failure of >> the transistor in question the 555 oscillated at about 28KHz. >> After the >> failure it oscillates at about 14KHz. As a test, using just a 9V >> battery, I >> shorted the C-E terminals of the transistor with a piece of wire >> just to >> bring the switched resistor back into the circuit; when I do this >> the 555 >> oscillates at 33KHz, so the transistor must be adding resistance that >> influences the timing. > > It appears Q21 (the A55 at issue) is working in conjunction with > Q21 to form --whoops-> *with Q22* > a constant-current supply for the timing capacitor. (That should > mostly linearise the charge ramp on the cap, but I'm not clear yet > as to what the objective is there as the output from the 555 is > still off-on and I haven't examined the entire power supply > schematic enough to figure out where this fits in the big picture > of the whole power supply. Stability perhaps, or, is that 300V > through the 3.9M R a kickstart or is it regulation feedback?) > > The critical components in the Q21/Q22 circuit are D34, R41, R42 & > R45, the transistors in operation will 'adapt' around (as > determined by) the values of those components. Transistor specs > vary widely (between units and with temp) and (again, generally) > one doesn't design around a specific value of transistor spec - one > chooses a transistor for various mins and maxes and the 'design' > proper is done with more precise and stable components (R/C). > > (Flippantly, that's also an explanation of why digital has won: so > you no longer have to sit down with a slide rule to accomplish > something.) > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 15:05:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20120411130458.B9535@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012, John Foust wrote: > Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the > first public developer's conference, a CES, > a show in San Francisco, That would presumably be the West Coast Compter Faire. Got a date? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 11 15:20:58 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <8E3C9157-C051-49DD-A13C-CBD50F13CF9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> <201204111250.q3BColKZ004074@billy.ezwind.net> <4F85C8CA.9060003@atarimuseum.com> <8E3C9157-C051-49DD-A13C-CBD50F13CF9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20120411131737.A9535@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I never followed the details of the intertwined Commodore/Atari > business history, but the part I've never really heard discussed much > is how Commodore successfully transitioned from calculators to > personal computers. Calculator manufactures were dropping like flies > in the mid-70's as calculators became a low-cost commodity business, > Commodore was one of the few that managed to migrate to and thrive in > a new business and market. Strikes me it took some astuteness to > accomplish that. After experiencing the early pocket calculators in the early 1970s, then the HPs, and then the price decline, I bought the first one that I could get for <$5 (1977?). It was a Commodore. I guess that we'll have to wait, and buy the book to hear what the Atari/Commodore story was. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 11 15:44:58 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:44:58 -0700 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <39C9FD8E-9440-4EDD-94EB-1644B4773329@gmail.com> References: <025501cd17bc$6d401860$47c04920$@ntlworld.com> <026601cd17cc$0e3453d0$2a9cfb70$@ntlworld.com> <4F85D706.3050609@neurotica.com> <39C9FD8E-9440-4EDD-94EB-1644B4773329@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02B4684A-7FFA-4964-98FC-C16012156EF4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 11, at 12:48 PM, David Riley wrote: > > I think the 2N2907 part is basically aimed at the same application > area > as the older A55, but it benefits from newer processes. You'll find > that in a lot of transistors; I'm still a little baffled as to what > the > quantitative difference between a 3904 and a 4401 is aside from > slightly > better current capabilities on the 4401. Typically I can swap one for > the other with no problem unless I'm blowing up 3904s. Probably something like Motorola vs Fairchild. I'm just guessing, but in preponderance of personal observation of equipment made back when they were new, I think 440x has been more Fairchild and 390x more Moto or TI. Everyone cross-supplies of course, but it would be nice if there were a resource available to look back at which manufacturer a particular type originated with. (Why is there a 40 min. delay for messages getting through distribution?) From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Wed Apr 11 13:37:44 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:37:44 +0100 Subject: Recognising old ?IBM modules Message-ID: <0F641D1909664EB39DDDAB262E17B5D4@vostro> Guys, look at the picture in this eBay item.: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260976748947?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 Anyone tell me what computer these modules belonged to? Many thaks, peter vp || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From dave_rowland at btinternet.com Wed Apr 11 15:41:01 2012 From: dave_rowland at btinternet.com (Dave Rowland) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:41:01 +0100 Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e66432d-33ba-4a81-9e31-7c41fed1a635@email.android.com> Tony Thats great. Think i just need the 'how to' for getting console access. I can prob figure out the rest. Its also not clear if the main code is booted from the network (implied in one google search i found) having said that there are a lot of eproms on the memory card so hopefully all the operating code is in the box. Dave -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > I'll see if I can dig out the manual. I think i know where it is... On top of my JNT PAD is a binder with 'Camtec' on it. The problem is that on top of that is a pile of HP41 docuemtaion, a couple oh HP82161 tape drives, 6 HP41 calcualtors, etc.... I do want to extract it carefully. As ever, I don't have a scanner, but I can probably make a copy of the manual and post it. I am somewhat short of itme at the moment (my father is still in hospital :-(), but I will see what I can do. -tony From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Wed Apr 11 15:50:12 2012 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:50:12 +0100 Subject: New release of IBM 360/30 code for Digilent Spartan 3 Message-ID: <1334177412.24095.11.camel@entasis> Having finally got back onto this project a few months ago, I have prepared another release of the code from my IBM 360/30 emulation project for the Digilent Xilinx Spartan 3 board. The main differences from the previous release are: * 64k storage in external static RAM * 1050 Console typewriter/keyboard implemented using the serial port * Main storage initialisation from a file stored in the flash rom (This can be generated from a Hercules PCH file) * Lots of little bug fixes The main limitation is that the 1050 is the only peripheral available. There is a known bug: The first character output by the 1050 on each SIO is duplicated. There are probably lots more hiding. Everything is available at http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ Future tasks: Implement printers/readers/punches via multiplexor channel Implement tapes/DASD via selector channel and flash disk -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Apr 11 16:16:51 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:16:51 +0200 Subject: HP-UX 10.20 B4474FA Netstation Software Codeword? In-Reply-To: References: <31706E35-4FAC-401F-B479-205131EFE08E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20120411211651.GA17545@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 10:01:28AM -0700, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 1:56 AM, Christian Corti > wrote: > > > > You don't need codewords for the Enware/Netstation software. And you can > > easily use that e.g. with a Linux server (as I do) since the SW is generic > > for most kind of Unices. A quick search with a search enginge of your choice > > will reveal several places with instructions how to install the Netstation > > SW and configure the terminal (you basically need BOOTP/DHCP and TFTP/NFS). > > Here's one source for the SW: > > ftp://leela.pocnet.net/pub/misc/Netstation_B.09.11.tar > > And if you just follow the English Wikipedia article > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_X-Terminals > > you'll find the following link: http://www.ductape.net/~brianm/xterm/ > > > > I did do some searching before asking, and I did find this web page > and did take a look at it: > http://www.ductape.net/~brianm/xterm/ > > These links on that web page are broken: > generic.img.gz (25mb) Generic install image for *nix systems > install.gen (3.6Kb) Installation script > install.how (10Kb) Brief documentation on the installation procedure > (See the section on 'Generic Installs') It looks like you can get those files here: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/hp-xterm/ > I also found other people looking for the software, such as this instance: > http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/Workstations-Itanium-Based/Netstation-B-09-11/td-p/2840817 > But that refers to an HP FTP site that is no longer there: > hprc.external.hp.com/xgraphic/enware > > I'll see if I can access this. I can't at the moment: > ftp://leela.pocnet.net/pub/misc/Netstation_B.09.11.tar I mirrored the file to: http://www.yauz.de/tmp/Netstation_B.09.11.tar Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 11 16:47:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:47:50 -0700 Subject: GAL fusemaps (16V8) Message-ID: <4F859996.22333.153183A@cclist.sydex.com> I've received reports that Lattice GAL16V8D's don't program correctly when fed National GAL16V8 JEDEC fusemaps. Has anyone else run into this? I mean to dig into this, but if anyone knows off the top of the head, it'd save some work. EQN2JED was used as the assembler in both cases. I'm going to try CUPL and see if the results are the same. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 11 17:14:41 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 17:14:41 -0500 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <20120411130458.B9535@shell.lmi.net> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <20120411130458.B9535@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201204112214.q3BMEbHx019743@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:05 PM 4/11/2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >On Wed, 11 Apr 2012, John Foust wrote: >> Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the >> first public developer's conference, a CES, >> a show in San Francisco, > >That would presumably be the West Coast Compter Faire. Got a date? Yes, late March 1987. - John From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 11 17:14:41 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 16:14:41 -0600 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story Message-ID: I love this album and had no idea there was a spectrum tie-in; apparently that was only done for the UK edition? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Apr 11 17:18:17 2012 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:18:17 -0400 Subject: archives of Tandy manuals References: Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B186@meow.catcorner.org> > On Behalf Of Jason T > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 3:03 PM > On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 12:49 AM, David Griffith > wrote: > > > > I seem to recall bitsavers.org keeping old Tandy manuals, > but I must have > > been mistaken or something changed. ?Who collects these? ?I > just now noticed > > that the scans I made of the TRS-80 PT-210 user and service > manuals are > > nowhere to be found through Google. > > I went on a similar hunt just recently. I've got a room full of Tandy > stuff to be scanned. Wanted to see what was already out there to > avoid duplicating effort but foundvery little. Even Ira Goldklang's > site doesn't have much in the way of manuals (that I could find.) > I have another 20 or 30 GB of Tandy related manuals and magazines from various places. Can't host them on my bandwidth. Everyone wants to download the entire thing. If anyone wants to host them, I can put them on a couple of DVD's and mail them. Kelly From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 17:30:08 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:30:08 -0400 Subject: Recognising old ?IBM modules In-Reply-To: <0F641D1909664EB39DDDAB262E17B5D4@vostro> References: <0F641D1909664EB39DDDAB262E17B5D4@vostro> Message-ID: > Anyone tell me what computer these modules belonged to? Very likely manufacturing equipment for internal IBM use. -- Will From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 11 18:07:51 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 00:07:51 +0100 Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F860EC7.40509@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/04/2012 19:38, Tony Duell wrote: > I also have a 'York Box'. This is another bit of UK network history. It's > actually a BAl11-V (the small DEC Q-bux box) containing an SBC21 (single > board computer), a 32KW memory board, a DPV11 (sync serial port) and a > DRV11 (parallel port). It was used to conenct hosts that didn't directly > support X25 to JANET. The host connected either via the parallel > interface or via one of the async ports on the SBC21, the X25 link went > to the DPV11. My first 11/23 was rather like that -- it came from ERCC and had an 11/23, DPV11, DLV11J, BDV11 and some memory. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From kfergason at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 19:41:42 2012 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:41:42 -0500 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <201204112214.q3BMEbHx019743@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <20120411130458.B9535@shell.lmi.net> <201204112214.q3BMEbHx019743@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <8C1E6E0C-7968-4B70-82D4-64D14F5F75D0@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2012, at 5:14 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 03:05 PM 4/11/2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 11 Apr 2012, John Foust wrote: >>> Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... the >>> first public developer's conference, a CES, >>> a show in San Francisco, >> >> That would presumably be the West Coast Compter Faire. Got a date? > > Yes, late March 1987. > > - John cool. that's the one I went to. was at the Spectrum Holobyte booth showing off Falcon. kelly From jecel at merlintec.com Wed Apr 11 23:53:38 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 01:53:38 -0300 Subject: Jack Tramiel passed away In-Reply-To: <8E3C9157-C051-49DD-A13C-CBD50F13CF9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201204091829.q39ITkvl11337888@floodgap.com> <4F83334B.1050008@verizon.net> <07598344-137A-4D13-93F0-641D9F6428FE@gmail.com> <4F834408.8020104@verizon.net> <201204111250.q3BColKZ004074@billy.ezwind.net> <4F85C8CA.9060003@atarimuseum.com> <8E3C9157-C051-49DD-A13C-CBD50F13CF9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201204120456.q3C4unkg023964@billy.ezwind.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I never followed the details of the intertwined Commodore/Atari > business history, but the part I've never really heard discussed much > is how Commodore successfully transitioned from calculators to > personal computers. Calculator manufactures were dropping like flies > in the mid-70's as calculators became a low-cost commodity business, > Commodore was one of the few that managed to migrate to and thrive in > a new business and market. Strikes me it took some astuteness to > accomplish that. Commodore, Sinclair and MITS are three companies I think of when talking about success in moving from calculators to personal computers. There were probably others and I don't count HP nor Texas Instruments since they just did well with both and so didn't "transition". In the case of Commodore, a bit of luck was an important factor. Jack Tramiel saw that it was impossible to continue to compete in the calculator business without becoming vertically integrated like TI (his current supplier). So he bought a chip company: MOS Technology. This would allow him to make the chips in his calculators himself and beat TI and the Japanese in price. But MOS Technology had just entered the personal computer business by accident - their development board proved to be very popular with end users. http://oldcomputers.net/kim1.html So now Commodore was in the personal computing business (see the bottom picture on that page) and had Chuck Peddle working for them who was anxious to do it right. -- Jecel From jjacocks at mac.com Wed Apr 11 16:00:54 2012 From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 17:00:54 -0400 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <20120411130458.B9535@shell.lmi.net> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <20120411130458.B9535@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 11 Apr 2012, John Foust wrote: >> Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... ?the >> first public developer's conference, a CES, >> a show in San Francisco, > > That would presumably be the West Coast Compter Faire. ?Got a date? The picture looks to me to be an Apple Macintosh II, with a third-party PC keyboard. The mouse is standard Apple, and there's a 13" High-Resolution monitor sitting just behind it. The case has been cut to pieces, obviously for a demo. I can see an auto-inject floppy, mounted vertically, in the left-front of the case. Also, the power supply looks very Mac IIish, to me. I'm assuming that this is meant to be some kind of Mac/PC compatibility solution? - Alex From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Apr 11 17:02:01 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:02:01 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating Message-ID: <01OE7JG8NSKI0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >When, like me, you don't know a lot about electronics beyond some >theoretical study as a student many years ago, it is especially satisfying >to make a repair like this. > I have a degree in electronic engineering. However it didn't help very much repairing old computer equipment. I had to figure out how to do that for myself from resources such as this list. > >With regard to your doorstops, if they are RD5x disks then I would be more >than happy to take them off your hands :-) Alternatively, I can share what >little I know about getting them working again (mainly RD53). > None of them started out as RDxx disks. Many were from a skip (dumpster) outside a closed PC repair shop. Others were pulls from old PCs that were being dumped at work. Some never worked but others worked well enough for me to format them using a VAX 2000 and gave reasonable service for a while before giving up with various problems. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From benylin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 11 21:55:32 2012 From: benylin at hotmail.com (jello) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 22:55:32 -0400 Subject: Help identifying Mystery CDC Terminal... Message-ID: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://yahozna.dyndns.org/ computers/cdcterminal/CIMG1330.JPG&imgrefurl=http:// www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2008-February/ 052537.html&usg=__1fV1PKo3sAiJ9Wg7Uo9Hi8yipYU=&h=1728&w=2304&sz=1734&hl= en&start=28&zoom=1&tbnid=qPJXAYIkwqa- cM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&ei=oEOGT67UIenj0QGehIz6Bw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcdc %2Bterminal%26start%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd% 3Divnsfd&itbs=1 it's a VUCOM 1 made by CDC ok,the post is a few years old but hey...you've posted one of the rare photo of a VUCOM 1 online !... if you have found more info on it,let me know,I've got one home. JF From arkaxow at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 01:54:29 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 02:54:29 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 conversion from NTSC to PAL Message-ID: <2EE3EDDD58E64D5090294A2A9AAD9FDD@ArkCompNew> Does anyone have experience converting a Commodore 64 from NTSC to PAL ? Jeffrey Brace From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 01:58:42 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:58:42 +0100 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> <4F85C196.8040506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 11 Apr 2012, at 19:18, r.stricklin wrote: > > On 4/11/2012 11:30 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > >> Any idea what this; >> >> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zUQg2Dqo61g/T4WkL4rTEjI/AAAAAAAAASg/h5yeOm85t9E/s1120/00881.JPG >> >> actually is? It's sitting in an Amiga 2000 chassis (or a generic full >> PC AT desktop box) and has all manner of weird things plugged in! > > Looks to me like pretty standard guts from a Macintosh II. Congratulations, you win today's special prize! http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/profiles/articles/macii/motherboard.jpg It was given away by the block of 4 large square chips and the hole in the corner at the front. -- Mark Benson My Blog: Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/mdbenson "Never send a human to do a machine's job..." From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Apr 12 03:05:38 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:05:38 +0100 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> <4F85C196.8040506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I miss "my" Mac II. I should have "forgotten" to return it to ASU. Damn my honesty! (; On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > > On 11 Apr 2012, at 19:18, r.stricklin wrote: > >> >> On 4/11/2012 11:30 AM, Mark Benson wrote: >> >>> Any idea what this; >>> >>> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zUQg2Dqo61g/T4WkL4rTEjI/AAAAAAAAASg/h5yeOm85t9E/s1120/00881.JPG >>> >>> actually is? It's sitting in an Amiga 2000 chassis (or a generic full >>> PC AT desktop box) and has all manner of weird things plugged in! >> >> Looks to me like pretty standard guts from a Macintosh II. > > Congratulations, you win today's special prize! > > http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/profiles/articles/macii/motherboard.jpg > > It was given away by the block of 4 large square chips and the hole in the corner at the front. > > -- > Mark Benson > > My Blog: > > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/mdbenson > > "Never send a human to do a machine's job..." > > > > > > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Under the Obama plan, NASA will spend $100 billion on human spaceflight over the next 10 years in order to accomplish nothing" -Robert Zubrin From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 12 07:28:09 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:28:09 -0500 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> <96F6B4EA-A165-499F-AB68-57E930145E40@mainecoon.com> <539C3A4C-E3A6-4222-910A-DA27F7F83273@gmail.com> <4F85C196.8040506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201204121227.q3CCRRSF030068@billy.ezwind.net> At 01:58 AM 4/12/2012, Mark Benson wrote: >On 11 Apr 2012, at 19:18, r.stricklin wrote: >> Looks to me like pretty standard guts from a Macintosh II. >Congratulations, you win today's special prize! >http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/profiles/articles/macii/motherboard.jpg >It was given away by the block of 4 large square chips and the hole in the corner at the front. OK, I'm always eager to have memory or deception corrected. I uploaded eight more pics from that series. They're organized as the last eleven at the end. https://plus.google.com/photos/117735836648635794619/albums/5730165271927312577?authkey=CJe3-Ibk68ua_wE The box is indeed labelled "Amiga 3000". The FCC disclaimer and mouse stickers are clearly made with a Mac. At least some of the deception must've been clear to me at the time, as I took an extra picture of the Apple power supply. I owned a Mac II at the time, so it all would've been familiar to me. I can't remember when these pictures were taken. I'll ask Dave Haynie. - John From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Apr 12 05:14:18 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:14:18 +0200 Subject: Commodore 64 conversion from NTSC to PAL In-Reply-To: <2EE3EDDD58E64D5090294A2A9AAD9FDD@ArkCompNew> References: <2EE3EDDD58E64D5090294A2A9AAD9FDD@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <4F86AAFA.3010501@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 12.04.2012 08:54, schrieb Jeffrey Brace: > Does anyone have experience converting a Commodore 64 from NTSC to PAL ? I don't think it is worth the trouble. You have to replace the VIC-II video chip with the PAL version, the 14.318MHz xtal with an uncommon 17.734MHz one, and maybe also the video modulator. You should also have a 220V/50Hz power source handy. The PAL/NTSC jumper on the board is not at all sufficient. Such components are easiest obtained from an existing PAL C64 which is pretty common at some auction site. (well, maybe unless it is some less common PAL version, like PAL with 60Hz). -- Holger From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Apr 12 10:58:16 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The History of SuperComputers Message-ID: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I know someone will be interested in this article http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/125271-the-history-of-supercomputers From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 11:41:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:41:20 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F86A340.31192.A5EB9@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2012 at 8:58, Christian Liendo wrote: > I know someone will be interested in this article > > > http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/125271-the-history-of-supercomputer > s Woefully incomplete and in many ways, inaccurate. Where's the Burroughs BSP?, ILLIAC, the TI ASC, The CDC 6700 (2 CPU), STAR, 7600...? --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 12 11:49:00 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:49:00 -0600 Subject: Help identifying Mystery CDC Terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , jello writes: > http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://yahozna.dyndns.org/ > computers/cdcterminal/CIMG1330.JPG&imgrefurl=http:// > www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2008-February/ > 052537.html&usg=__1fV1PKo3sAiJ9Wg7Uo9Hi8yipYU=&h=1728&w=2304&sz=1734&hl= > en&start=28&zoom=1&tbnid=qPJXAYIkwqa- > cM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&ei=oEOGT67UIenj0QGehIz6Bw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcdc > %2Bterminal%26start%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd% > 3Divnsfd&itbs=1 > > > it's a VUCOM 1 made by CDC Apparently only made by CDC *Canada*. All I could find in Computerworld about it were articles about Bell Canada. Here's one with pictures that confirms the id by jello: > ok,the post is a few years old but hey...you've posted one of the > rare photo of a VUCOM 1 online !... > > if you have found more info on it,let me know,I've got one home. Ah... can you take pics of the rear of the terminal, particularly the model plate? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 12:36:40 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 19:36:40 +0200 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 17:58, Christian Liendo wrote: > I know someone will be interested in this article > > > http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/125271-the-history-of-supercomputers What made me crack up is that I recognized the photo on the second page; just this past weekend (easter sunday) I tried making the very same photo (and failed due to my flash being off): it's the Cray at the Deutsches Museum in M?nchen. My picture also has a tour group gawking at the IBM 360 in the background. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4er72SKIMevnbUsAzRwEZbrfXPLP6DliFeU7oMI3BH8?feat=directlink Going on a topic drift, the Zuse, that is a thing to behold! https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jT6-ZccB_ATSkIMzJNkjdbrfXPLP6DliFeU7oMI3BH8?feat=directlink Sadly, I had to rush though that portion of the museum. The whole museum deserves a multi-day visit, not just an afternoon. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 12 13:53:09 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 11:53:09 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F872495.7030904@brouhaha.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > I know someone will be interested in this article > > > http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/125271-the-history-of-supercomputers > If the CDC 6600 was "actually fairly small ? about the size of four filing cabinets", then the author has apparently seen *MUCH* larger filing cabinets than I ever have. I think the overall volume is closer to that of about 15 normal-sized four-drawer filing cabinets. Personally, I'm skeptical about there being any reasonable definition of "supercomputer" by which the IBM 7030 ("Stretch", 1961) and NORC (1954) didn't qualify. In fact, although the Wikipedia article on supercomputers doesn't mention NORC, the article on NORC quotes Frank da Cruz of Columbia University as stating that NORC was the first supercomputer. Giving credit where credit is due, Seymour Cray probably did more to advance the state of the art of supercomputers than any other individual, but claims of the 6600 being the first supercomputer strike me as being revisionist history. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 12 14:09:34 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:09:34 -0700 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 10, at 6:28 PM, Richard wrote: > In article , > Brent Hilpert writes: > >> There is a standalone (integrated colour monitor) Telidon terminal >> (ca. 1980) in the back store of the radio museum here, likely in >> danger of being dumpstered. > > I'd be willing to rescue that if they're just gonna dumpster it. In theory, some other Canadian museum/org would hold onto it as a bit of national technology history .. but I can't say that is likely. I'll keep you in mind for a destination. Even without the keyboard it should be useable as a display terminal to show what a teletext protocol and display were like. I should try finding the teletext/Telidon protocol and see if I can feed it something to display. >> It's missing the detached keyboard unfortunately, I think it was a >> small-pin-count connector (perhaps RJ-something) so it should be some >> serial-style interface. > > There was also a tricky way of doing the keyswitch scanning using a > small number of wires, eliminating the need for a microprocessor in > the keyboard. This technique was used on the HP 2392A terminal as > described in "A Reliable, Low-Cost Keyboard Interface" on pg. 7 of > > > This uses a 5-wire interface: power, ground, increment, reset and key > state. It's pretty slick. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 13:35:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 19:35:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <98C3EF80-C923-48A3-BBB2-A46695D49AD1@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 11, 12 12:46:40 pm Message-ID: > (Flippantly, that's also an explanation of why digital has won: so > you no longer have to sit down with a slide rule to accomplish > something.) Flippant reply : o, you have to sit down with a CAD system to accomplish anything (or at least a computer running a cross-development system) My expeireence is that analogue and digital design are about equally hard, but in different ways. Some people take to one, some to the other. Yo ucan do simple digital design (a handful of gates and flip-flops) in your head. You can do simple analogue design in much the same way. When you start making complex state machines, or using microcotnrollers, prgrammable logic devices, analogue circuits dring 'nasty'' loads (like a chopper transsformer), or have many frequnce-ydependant analogue feedback loops, then you start neediong to use a calculator or a computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 13:38:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 19:38:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Camtec jnt pad In-Reply-To: <5e66432d-33ba-4a81-9e31-7c41fed1a635@email.android.com> from "Dave Rowland" at Apr 11, 12 09:41:01 pm Message-ID: > > Tony > > Thats great. Think i just need the 'how to' for getting console > access. I can prob figure out the rest. Its also not clear if the main It's probably easier ro copy the lot rather than to work out what bits you are likely to ened (or not). > code is booted from the network (implied in one google search i found) > having said that there are a lot of eproms on the memory card so > hopefully all the operating code is in the box. I am pretty sure there's enough smarts in th ROM to get it working. Whether you can download further code I don;t know, but from wehat I recall they work when powered up without having to boot from some host or other. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 12 13:47:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 19:47:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Disk Not Rotating In-Reply-To: <01OE7JG8NSKI0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Apr 11, 12 11:02:01 pm Message-ID: > > > > >When, like me, you don't know a lot about electronics beyond some > >theoretical study as a student many years ago, it is especially satisfying > >to make a repair like this. > > > > I have a degree in electronic engineering. However it didn't help very much > repairing old computer equipment. I had to figure out how to do that for > myself from resources such as this list. This makes me wonder just what was taught in that degree course... I've come across just about every major type of electronic system in a classic computer somewhre. The digital things -- all the basic circuits, state machines, microcoded systems, etc are obviously all to be found. So are most analogue system, including : Power audio-band amplifiers (deflection drivers for vector displays, raster dispaly vertical drivers) Video amplifiers (obvious, but also the read ampliifers of disk systems are that sort of bandwidth) Filters, active and LC (older modems, disk read amplifiers) Servo systems (hard disk head positioning) DC and AC motor drivers (obvious) Linear and switching PSU regulaotrs (obvious again. Most CRT monitor horizontal output stagesa are swithcing supplies too) Phase locked loops (modems, disk data separators), these include VCOs, of course Crystal and LC oscillators In fact I can't think of a circuit or system that doesn't appear somewhere in a classic computer. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 12 14:50:09 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:50:09 -0600 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <4F86A340.31192.A5EB9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F86A340.31192.A5EB9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F86A340.31192.A5EB9 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Woefully incomplete and in many ways, inaccurate. Where's the > Burroughs BSP?, ILLIAC, the TI ASC, The CDC 6700 (2 CPU), STAR, > 7600...? Better to comment on the original article than here, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 15:57:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:57:55 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <4F872495.7030904@brouhaha.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4F872495.7030904@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2012 at 11:53, Eric Smith wrote: > Giving credit where credit is due, Seymour Cray > probably did more to advance the state of the art of supercomputers > than any other individual, but claims of the 6600 being the first > supercomputer strike me as being revisionist history. I don't recall CDC ever calling the 6600 a "supercomputer"; they may have done so with the 7600--they certainly did so with the STAR (ca. 1969). Part of revisionism it seems to me, is the attempt to couch older technology in modern "in" terms. For example, consider the WikiP article on the TI ASC (a "supercomputer" if there ever was one). Talking about the functional units of the 6600 as "cores" seems to me to be stretching things. Back then, a "core" meant something very different. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 16:00:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:00:03 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4F86A340.31192.A5EB9@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F86DFE3.24371.F73B13@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2012 at 13:50, Richard wrote: > Better to comment on the original article than here, though. Oh, I don't know, Richard. Misinformation abounds all over the place and nobody's going to pay attention to an old fart asking "Wass you dere, Shollie?" Might as well air my grumpy ramblings here. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 16:20:45 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:20:45 +0100 Subject: commodore sx64 keyboard cable idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 April 2012 10:53, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 11:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I got the weird idea that the odd keyboard cable hood for the Commodore sx64 >> could be made out of wood fairly simply. ?Is there anyone here who is good >> at woodworking who'd be interested in doing some tinkering with me? >> > > Rosewood always has a nice look. [Actual LOL] -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 16:32:40 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:32:40 +0100 Subject: Old days of the Amiga In-Reply-To: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204111556.q3BFuTnf009812@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 11 April 2012 16:56, John Foust wrote: > > Here's a dump of pictures from the early days of the Amiga... ?the > first public developer's conference, a CES, a show in San Francisco, > the first AmiExpo in New York... > > https://plus.google.com/photos/117735836648635794619/albums/5730165271927312577?authkey=CJe3-Ibk68ua_wE Great album - thanks for that. I think the only person in there who I had any contact with at the time was Jez San, who sent me the first external email I ever received from the Internet on CIX, IIRC. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 16:54:54 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:54:54 +0100 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 April 2012 23:14, Richard wrote: > I love this album and had no idea there was a spectrum tie-in; > apparently that was only done for the UK edition? > > Cool. Did anyone else enjoy both the Stranglers' album /Aural Sculpture/ *and* the Spectrum adventure game the cassette included, /Aural Quest/? :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 12 17:05:47 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 15:05:47 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4F872495.7030904@brouhaha.com> <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't recall CDC ever calling the 6600 a "supercomputer"; they may > have done so with the 7600--they certainly did so with the STAR (ca. > 1969). Whether it was called a "supercomputer" at the time, and whether it was a supercomputer, are two different questions. Karl Benz created an automobile in 1885, but he didn't call it that. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 17:02:40 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:02:40 +0100 Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 April 2012 07:07, David Griffith wrote: > > Is anyone here aware of a gizmo that will let me plug a USB mouse into an > ADB socket? ?I'm trying to come up with a way to shoehorn modern optical > mouse guts into a classic Macintosh mouse. I was going to recommend one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-2001-ADB-iMate-Universal-adapter/dp/B000067V8L ... Then I realised you want to go the other way... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 17:09:51 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:09:51 +0100 Subject: Micro-PROLOG In-Reply-To: <201204110453.q3B4rKcl14221528@floodgap.com> References: <201204110453.q3B4rKcl14221528@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 11 April 2012 05:53, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Looking for any version of Micro-PROLOG by LPA. This was a modified version > of Prolog for small systems and was most notable for translating the typical > Horn clause into an almost Lisp-like syntax, but could still do a surprising > amount of the language within limitations of the host computer. There were > versions for Z80, 8086 and 6502, and possibly others. 6502 preferred but > any version, especially with source code, appreciated. I have a couple of ex-LPA Ltd 68K Macs in my garage. :?) They're located about 2-3 miles from my home. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 12 17:27:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 15:27:13 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F86F451.27049.147070E@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2012 at 15:05, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I don't recall CDC ever calling the 6600 a "supercomputer"; they may > > have done so with the 7600--they certainly did so with the STAR (ca. > > 1969). > > Whether it was called a "supercomputer" at the time, and whether it > was a supercomputer, are two different questions. > > Karl Benz created an automobile in 1885, but he didn't call it that. I take your point, but there's a difference between calling something a "duck" and a "super-duck". The first is largely an accepted term of art; the second is more of a qualitative judgement. (Is a superduck just a duck that wears lederhosen--or are there other requirements?). It helps if the thing was called that by some contemporary industry source. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 18:04:01 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:04:01 -0500 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Did anyone else enjoy both the Stranglers' album /Aural Sculpture/ > *and* the Spectrum adventure game the cassette included, /Aural > Quest/? :?) Sounds like another UK only release? Wouldn't make much sense to release a Speccy tape in the US? Only remotely related example I can offer up here was the Information Society CD that came with a CD+G track. All 10 or so people with CD+G capable devices were treated to a band bio and a low-res graphics show :) (I viewed it many years after its release on a Magnavox CDI. I think the C= CDTV could play them, too?) -j From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 12 19:21:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:21:18 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <4F86F451.27049.147070E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> <4F86F451.27049.147070E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F87717E.5050104@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I take your point, but there's a difference between calling something > a "duck" and a "super-duck". The first is largely an accepted term of > art; the second is more of a qualitative judgement. (Is a superduck > just a duck that wears lederhosen--or are there other requirements?). > It helps if the thing was called that by some contemporary industry > source. Certainly the people that built NORC and Stretch knew full well that they were building dramatically more powerful computers than existed previously. It didn't happen by accident. If you had asked them at the time if they were trying to create a supercomputer, I expect that they would have answered in the affirmative. Admittedly that is only speculation. Eric From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 19:23:43 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:23:43 +0100 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 April 2012 00:04, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Did anyone else enjoy both the Stranglers' album /Aural Sculpture/ >> *and* the Spectrum adventure game the cassette included, /Aural >> Quest/? :?) > > Sounds like another UK only release? I really don't know. > Wouldn't make much sense to > release a Speccy tape in the US? I guess not, although games written with The Quill had no sound or graphics and might have worked on a TS2068. But - perhaps it's me - reading between the lines of your comment, you seem to be making the point that the game was for a minority machine, one that was not significant in the USA? Or so I misunderstand? If so, I'd challenge it. The Sinclair Spectrum was one of the most successful home computers ever made - they sold pretty well across much of Europe, I believe; certainly the later Spectrum 128 model was designed in Spain by Investronica, not Sinclair Research itself. At the time, the Commodore 64 was the only machine that outsold it, and I think that when they were new, the C64 was well over twice the price of the Spectrum. The Speccy was an affordable machine for the masses, whereas the C64 - when new - was an elite, expensive machine for the serious gamer. The even-more-rich who did not want their children to have fun bought BBC Micros. :?) I don't know of any hard sales figures, but the Spectrum sold several million units, I think. It was *absolutely* the most logical machine for a UK band to release a bonus game for; it was *the* dominant home computer of the UK (and I suspect Europe) in the early 1980s. It was quite widely cloned behind the Iron Curtain, too. There's mention of the game on the Wikipedia article about the album: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aural_Sculpture > Only remotely related example I can offer up here was the Information > Society CD that came with a CD+G track. ?All 10 or so people with CD+G > capable devices were treated to a band bio and a low-res graphics show > :) > > (I viewed it many years after its release on a Magnavox CDI. ?I think > the C= CDTV could play them, too?) Oh, yes, I heard of them. I don't think I ever saw a player, though - excepting fairly rare exotica such as an Amiga CD32 or a 3DO console. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 12 20:06:25 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:06:25 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <4F872495.7030904@brouhaha.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4F872495.7030904@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C3F838F-9145-4322-A90D-18FBCD58256C@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 12, at 11:53 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Christian Liendo wrote: >> I know someone will be interested in this article >> >> http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/125271-the-history-of- >> supercomputers >> > If the CDC 6600 was "actually fairly small ? about the size of four > filing cabinets", then the author has apparently seen *MUCH* larger > filing cabinets than I ever have. I think the overall volume is > closer to that of about 15 normal-sized four-drawer filing cabinets. > > Personally, I'm skeptical about there being any reasonable > definition of "supercomputer" by which the IBM 7030 ("Stretch", > 1961) and NORC (1954) didn't qualify. The LARC should also have been mentioned. I suppose mentioning ILLIAC IV might be considered contentious. > In fact, although the Wikipedia article on supercomputers doesn't > mention NORC, the article on NORC quotes Frank da Cruz of Columbia > University as stating that NORC was the first supercomputer. Giving > credit where credit is due, Seymour Cray probably did more to > advance the state of the art of supercomputers than any other > individual, but claims of the 6600 being the first supercomputer > strike me as being revisionist history. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 12 20:40:40 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F84B3B3.3060200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1334281240.83207.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 4/10/12, Al Kossow wrote: > OK, since I haven't heard of anyone else, I'm going to put a > fairly low bid on it > to try to get the media. So, did you get it? I just wish I wasn't so incredibly far away (being in upstate NY makes me about as far away from that pile as possible while still being in the same country), otherwise I would have gone for it. But that hardware would be prohibitively expensive to ship, not to mention impossible to pack. If, for some reason, whoever got it doesn't want the hardware and by chance happens to be driving across the country, send me a note ;) -Ian From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 12 20:45:00 2012 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 20:45:00 -0500 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <4F87717E.5050104@brouhaha.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> <4F86F451.27049.147070E@cclist.sydex.com>,<4F87717E.5050104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:21:18 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: The History of SuperComputers > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I take your point, but there's a difference between calling something > > a "duck" and a "super-duck". The first is largely an accepted term of > > art; the second is more of a qualitative judgement. (Is a superduck > > just a duck that wears lederhosen--or are there other requirements?). > > It helps if the thing was called that by some contemporary industry > > source. > > Certainly the people that built NORC and Stretch knew full well that > they were building dramatically more powerful computers than existed > previously. It didn't happen by accident. If you had asked them at the > time if they were trying to create a supercomputer, I expect that they > would have answered in the affirmative. Admittedly that is only > speculation. > > Eric > I'll recommend this "The Supermen, the Story of Seymour Cray" http://www.amazon.com/The-Supermen-Seymour-Technical-Supercomputer/dp/product-description/0471048852 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 12 20:46:24 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 6 April 2012 07:07, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Is anyone here aware of a gizmo that will let me plug a USB mouse into an >> ADB socket? ?I'm trying to come up with a way to shoehorn modern optical >> mouse guts into a classic Macintosh mouse. > > I was going to recommend one of these: > http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-2001-ADB-iMate-Universal-adapter/dp/B000067V8L > > ... Then I realised you want to go the other way... I found something from geethree.com that goes the desired direction. Unfortunately it appears to be a bit too large to stick in a mouse. Oh well. At least I can cram PS/2 mouse guts into an ADB mouse and use geethree's device. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 21:05:52 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:05:52 -0400 Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7884E882-CA0A-408C-9075-6A78EAC134A2@gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 6 April 2012 07:07, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Is anyone here aware of a gizmo that will let me plug a USB mouse into an >> ADB socket? I'm trying to come up with a way to shoehorn modern optical >> mouse guts into a classic Macintosh mouse. > > I was going to recommend one of these: > http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-2001-ADB-iMate-Universal-adapter/dp/B000067V8L > > ... Then I realised you want to go the other way... Indeed! I'm actually typing this through an iMate right now on an Extended Keyboard II, which is still the best keyboard I can find for the Mac (issues with the "out" key combination notwithstanding). You can usually find them a lot cheaper for "Buy It Now" sale on eBay, too. But yes, I'm talking about something to convert modern USB HID devices into ADB keyboards and mice (and joysticks, if I can get my act together) since I hate trawling eBay looking for old keyboards which may or may not be broken, covered in sticky nicotine residue, etc. Also so I can use a USB KVM between both my classic Macs and my PC. Should be a one-chip solution with modern ARM micros. - Dave From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 12 21:10:04 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:10:04 -0400 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> <4F86F451.27049.147070E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F87717E.5050104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F878AFC.5020509@snarc.net> > I'll recommend this "The Supermen, the Story of Seymour Cray" > > http://www.amazon.com/The-Supermen-Seymour-Technical-Supercomputer/dp/product-description/0471048852 +1, that's an entertaining and informative book. Although it's quite biased toward Cray. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 21:38:50 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:38:50 -0400 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2012, at 8:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 13 April 2012 00:04, Jason T wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> Did anyone else enjoy both the Stranglers' album /Aural Sculpture/ >>> *and* the Spectrum adventure game the cassette included, /Aural >>> Quest/? :?) >> >> Sounds like another UK only release? > > I really don't know. > >> Wouldn't make much sense to >> release a Speccy tape in the US? > > I guess not, although games written with The Quill had no sound or > graphics and might have worked on a TS2068. > > But - perhaps it's me - reading between the lines of your comment, you > seem to be making the point that the game was for a minority machine, > one that was not significant in the USA? Or so I misunderstand? > > If so, I'd challenge it. The Sinclair Spectrum was one of the most > successful home computers ever made - they sold pretty well across > much of Europe, I believe; certainly the later Spectrum 128 model was > designed in Spain by Investronica, not Sinclair Research itself. > > At the time, the Commodore 64 was the only machine that outsold it, > and I think that when they were new, the C64 was well over twice the > price of the Spectrum. The Speccy was an affordable machine for the > masses, whereas the C64 - when new - was an elite, expensive machine > for the serious gamer. The even-more-rich who did not want their > children to have fun bought BBC Micros. :?) > > I don't know of any hard sales figures, but the Spectrum sold several > million units, I think. It was *absolutely* the most logical machine > for a UK band to release a bonus game for; it was *the* dominant home > computer of the UK (and I suspect Europe) in the early 1980s. It was > quite widely cloned behind the Iron Curtain, too. The way I read it was that the Spectrum didn't make much headway in the US, so releases were fairly limited. Here, the "for the masses" machine was the C64, probably owing to the fact that Commodore was an American company. - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 12 21:42:07 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 19:42:07 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <1334281240.83207.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1334281240.83207.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F87927F.7060804@bitsavers.org> On 4/12/12 6:40 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Tue, 4/10/12, Al Kossow wrote: > >> OK, since I haven't heard of anyone else, I'm going to put a >> fairly low bid on it >> to try to get the media. > > So, did you get it? > yes. > I just wish I wasn't so incredibly far away (being in upstate NY makes me about as far away from that pile as possible while still being in the same country) Donzelli is heading out this way. Dave Mcguire was interested as well. I'm trying to get some folks in Orange County to bring it up to the Bay Area. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 12 21:45:06 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 19:45:06 -0700 Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: <7884E882-CA0A-408C-9075-6A78EAC134A2@gmail.com> References: <7884E882-CA0A-408C-9075-6A78EAC134A2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F879332.7040200@bitsavers.org> On 4/12/12 7:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > Indeed! I'm actually typing this through an iMate right now on > an Extended Keyboard II, which is still the best keyboard I can > find for the Mac The macally ikey is pretty similar to the EKII as far as keyboard feel and layout. That is the only keyboard I've ever used on USB Macs since Mr. Jobs' USB keybortions. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 21:45:33 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:45:33 -0500 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 9:38 PM, David Riley wrote: > The way I read it was that the Spectrum didn't make much headway in > the US, so releases were fairly limited. ?Here, the "for the masses" > machine was the C64, probably owing to the fact that Commodore was an > American company. Correct reading :) I know the Spectrum line was huge but, afaik (someone will surely correct me,) it wasn't even marketed in the US. So a Spectrum tape packaged with a record would be somewhat bewildering. Then again, all the cool kids sought out the import singles, so maybe a few made it over here! -j From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 22:00:54 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 20:00:54 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F87927F.7060804@bitsavers.org> References: <1334281240.83207.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F87927F.7060804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F8796E6.3060501@gmail.com> On 4/12/2012 7:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/12/12 6:40 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > I'm trying to get some folks in Orange County to bring it up to the > Bay Area. > Orange County and San Diego aren't exactly right next to each other. Hope they are good friends or owe you a favor. That's 3 hours of driving to get the stuff before ever heading north. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 22:05:17 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:05:17 -0400 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F87927F.7060804@bitsavers.org> References: <1334281240.83207.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F87927F.7060804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Donzelli is heading out this way. Dave Mcguire was interested as well. Yes, Ian, a very thinly veiled prod... Anyway, unlikely, as I will probably be dragging back the last remaining bits and pieces from Black Hole. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 12 22:08:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:08:24 -0400 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> On 04/12/2012 10:45 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 9:38 PM, David Riley wrote: >> The way I read it was that the Spectrum didn't make much headway in >> the US, so releases were fairly limited. Here, the "for the masses" >> machine was the C64, probably owing to the fact that Commodore was an >> American company. > > Correct reading :) I know the Spectrum line was huge but, afaik > (someone will surely correct me,) it wasn't even marketed in the US. > So a Spectrum tape packaged with a record would be somewhat > bewildering. > > Then again, all the cool kids sought out the import singles, so maybe > a few made it over here! I never saw a single one in those days. As close as anybody got was two friends that had Timex-Sinclair 1000s (I had one as well, still have it) and another friend who had a 2068. I have STILL never seen a Spectrum in person. I'd really love to play with one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Apr 12 22:41:54 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 20:41:54 -0700 Subject: Help identifying Mystery CDC Terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F87A082.7000806@mail.msu.edu> On 4/12/2012 9:49 AM, Richard wrote: > In article, > jello writes: > > > it's a VUCOM 1 made by CDC > Apparently only made by CDC *Canada*. > > All I could find in Computerworld about it were articles about > Bell Canada. > > Here's one with pictures that confirms the id by jello: > > >> ok,the post is a few years old but hey...you've posted one of the >> rare photo of a VUCOM 1 online !... >> >> if you have found more info on it,let me know,I've got one home. > Ah... can you take pics of the rear of the terminal, particularly > the model plate? I still have my pics up at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/cdcterminal/. CIMG1328.JPG is an OK shot of the model plate (a bit washed out). I can also take some more pictures if you need. Mine shows no evidence of being made in Canada, but who knows? Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Apr 12 22:47:11 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 20:47:11 -0700 Subject: Help identifying Mystery CDC Terminal... In-Reply-To: <4F87A082.7000806@mail.msu.edu> References: <4F87A082.7000806@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F87A1BF.7040509@mail.msu.edu> Also, thanks for the additional information about this terminal, Mr. Jello :). I received the following from the cray-cyber mailing list back in 2008, I can't recall if I relayed it back to this list, so here it is just in case: > Hi Josh, > > please find below collected comments from some friends of mine. > This appears to be a CDC 711 terminal, similar to a 713. > It will be VERY difficult to find any more information, I fear. > > Good luck, best regards > John > > > I believe that that is an old 713 terminal. Quite a cadillac in the early > 70s. > > Google finds: > > File: TERMS, Node: CDC713, Previous: Bantam, Up: Top, Next: C100 > > Control Data Corporation 713 > > Status: Supported by ":CRTSTY CDC713". > Users: DPR > Price: forgotten in the dawn of time > Screen: 16 x 80 > Chars: 7 x 9 with descenders > Keybrd: rotten > Speeds: 110,300 > Has: Random, CLEOL, CLEOS, Standout > Lacks: Addr, Tabs, InsChar, DelChar, InsLine, DelLine, Overstrike > Misfeatures: 300 baud maximum speed! > > http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/en/cybequip.html also has an entry. > > Maybe this isn't a 713, exactly, since both entries describe a max speed > ot 300bps. I see termcap entries for a cdc456 (80x24 and some escape > sequences--713 was dumber than that). > > > Never fear... > > Ca|cdc752|752|cdc:\ > :al=\E\114:am:bl=^G:bs:cd=^X:ce=^V:cl=^Y^X:cm=\E1%+ %+ > :co#80:cr=^M:\ > :dl=\E\112:do=^J:ho=^Y:le=^H:li#24:nd=^L:nl=^J:up=^Z: > C3|713|cdc713|Control Data 713:\ > :am:bs:bw:cl=^X:co#80:kd=j:kh=H:kl=h:kr=l:ku=k:\ > :li#16:ll=^Y:nd=^U:se=^O:sg=1:so=^N:up=^Z:x7: > C2|722|cdc722|Control Data 722:\ > :li#24:pt@:tc=713: > Cc|cdc721|721|plato|viking:\ > :al=^^R:am:bl=^G:cd=^^:ce=^K:cl=^L:cm=^B%r%+ %+ :co#80:cr=^M:\ > :dc=^^N:dl=^^Q:do=^J:ho=^Y:ic=^^O:le=^H:li#30:nl=^J:se=^U:so=^F:ul:\ > :up=^W:x7: > > We had a couple of those with max speed of 300 baud at UNEV. But I do not > remember (or most likely was never interested enough to find out) what the > model number was. My manager bought them at 'fire sale' prices back in > the late 1970s. They were horrible, but much better than using an ASR-33 > or cards. And as we all know, the 6676 mux only supported a max speed of > 300 baud anyway. > > The one in the photos has speeds up to 9600 baud, so must be quite a bit > later. (Or possibly a new 'high speed' module plugged into the older > display chassis?) > > Could it be the display terminal off a Mode 4 (731 or 734) station? They > ran at higher speeds. > > > My input suggests it is a 711, based on the position and number of > function keys. > > In the Cyber 70 Computer systems application guide (pub 200,464 dated > 2/1972) there are photos of 713 (function keys 2+8+2) and 711 (function > keys (2+8+2+2+1). > The photo you supplied matches the 711 in my manual. On 4/12/2012 8:41 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 4/12/2012 9:49 AM, Richard wrote: >> In article, >> jello writes: >> >> >> it's a VUCOM 1 made by CDC >> Apparently only made by CDC *Canada*. >> >> All I could find in Computerworld about it were articles about >> Bell Canada. >> >> Here's one with pictures that confirms the id by jello: >> >> >> >>> ok,the post is a few years old but hey...you've posted one of the >>> rare photo of a VUCOM 1 online !... >>> >>> if you have found more info on it,let me know,I've got one home. >> Ah... can you take pics of the rear of the terminal, particularly >> the model plate? > > I still have my pics up at > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/cdcterminal/. CIMG1328.JPG is an > OK shot of the model plate (a bit washed out). I can also take some > more pictures if you need. Mine shows no evidence of being made in > Canada, but who knows? > > Josh > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 12 23:08:49 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 12, 12 11:08:24 pm" Message-ID: <201204130408.q3D48nnn14614596@floodgap.com> > I never saw a single one in those days. As close as anybody got was > two friends that had Timex-Sinclair 1000s (I had one as well, still have > it) and another friend who had a 2068. My folks nearly bought a TS1000, but thought better of it and decided to buy a "real computer" which was, of course, a C64. Many years later I picked up a TS1000 and while they are interesting to play with I get more mileage out of the 64 even today. I have a 2068 around here somewhere too. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------ From arkaxow at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 23:46:17 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 00:46:17 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 conversion from NTSC to PAL In-Reply-To: <4F86AAFA.3010501@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <2EE3EDDD58E64D5090294A2A9AAD9FDD@ArkCompNew> <4F86AAFA.3010501@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Holger Veit Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 6:14 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Commodore 64 conversion from NTSC to PAL >I don't think it is worth the trouble. You have to replace the >You should also have a 220V/50Hz power source handy. I was told that if you did the conversion that you could use the existing power supply. I found an article from Commodore World Issue#20, Page 46, which details what you have to do and it mentions nothing about power supply. >which is pretty common at some auction site. (well, maybe The conversion was suggested to me because they seemed to indicate that it was more trouble to find and ship a PAL c64. Jeff Brace From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 12 23:50:32 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:50:32 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F8796E6.3060501@gmail.com> References: <1334281240.83207.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F87927F.7060804@bitsavers.org> <4F8796E6.3060501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F87B098.2070004@jwsss.com> we have it covered. A friend goes from the bay area to OC every two weeks, and San Diego will be a drive. there is a Ghirardelli store in San Diego, and I'm out of my stash. Need I say more. (And my buddy can't make it to the mother ship w/o a big trip, so guess who rates... Al does). Jim On 4/12/2012 8:00 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/12/2012 7:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 4/12/12 6:40 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> >> I'm trying to get some folks in Orange County to bring it up to the >> Bay Area. >> > > Orange County and San Diego aren't exactly right next to each other. > Hope they are good friends or owe you a favor. That's 3 hours of > driving to get the stuff before ever heading north. > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 13 00:13:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:13:37 -0700 Subject: Help identifying Mystery CDC Terminal... In-Reply-To: <4F87A1BF.7040509@mail.msu.edu> References: , <4F87A082.7000806@mail.msu.edu>, <4F87A1BF.7040509@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4F875391.30149.2BB1833@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2012 at 20:47, Josh Dersch wrote: > Also, thanks for the additional information about this terminal, Mr. > Jello :). I didn't see the original post for this, so I ignored it. I spent a fair amount of time in front of one of those, circa 1975- 76. They came in several incarnations. One was a cost reduced version with every other line blank--that probably was the 16-line version. An up-version had 24 lines. We had a room at SVLOPS dedicated to these terminals connected to a leased 9600 bps line, run through a TDM to the STAR-100 at ADL in Arden Hills. All ran at 300 bps. But we had no connection to the MCU, so figuring out what was going on in case of a CPU fault (DEAD code) was an insane exchange over conference phone to the operator at ADL. "Okay, now tell me what's in register C4..." whereupon the operator would phonetically read a 64 bit hex number. On a machine with 48 bit addresses, 64 bit words and 256 registers, you could easily spend an hour gathering minimal information. I was detailed off to a project called the "Remote MCU". Basically, one of the engineers back at ADL worked up a UART card (from SSI components) that ran at 1800 bps. A bit of MCU code and an appropriation of bandwidth of the 9600 bps link and we were in business. It was a lifesaver. As terrible as the terminals were, they were still better than the 200 series terminals used on the EI/200 setups still in use. For one thing, they understood ASCII, not 6-bit display code. And they had more than 64 characters on a line. Management refused to put a terminal on one's desk back then. So you had to get your paperwork and go to the terminal room to work. It was horrible--some people could simply not avoid gabbing. I think I have the distinction of writing the first text editor for the STAR-100 for use on a slow terminal. I called it OGNATE--for "Oh G*d, not another text editor". The odd thing was that when a bunch of use got together to contract to ETA for a Fortran compiler circa 1984, OGNATE was still in use, even though the 700 series terminals were long gone, as were the specialized string instructions that made the editor interesting (the CYBER 201-203 and the ETA 10 actually had fewer instructions than the STAR-100). Some enterprising programmer had simply re-coded them as scalar sequences. I was stunned when I discovered that. --Chuck From arkaxow at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 01:10:42 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 02:10:42 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FBDD6BCC2C2421F9BAC07806DAEBB3E@ArkCompNew> -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 10:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks On Wed, 4 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: >> I was considering buying KryoFlux to read and write Commodore disks. Has >> anyone done this ? From what I gather you just get the board and you can >> get the floppy cable and a power supply and power cord. But you need to >> buy a HD PC floppy drive and then can read the Commodore disks. That is >> Commodore 1541 disks. Does this sound right ? >What do YOU mean by "read" the disks? I mean make KryoFlux do what it was designed to do. Whatever that is. I assume make perfect images of disks. >Do you want access to the contents of the files, or are you archiving >them? I want to know how to use KryoFlux and make it work with Commodore 1541 floppies. >Kryoflux, and several others, will let you store and MAYBE recreate, but >if you think that you have file access, then you will need to write an OS >file-system. From arkaxow at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 01:12:06 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 02:12:06 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <4F7D0526.2070905@jbrain.com> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> <4F7D0526.2070905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Jim Brain Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 10:36 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks >Not to plug a product per se, but X*1541 and XU*1541 cables/adapters will >create D64 images from 1541 disks, which can be used with a myriad of >utilities and emulators designed to read such image formats. >JIm I used an XA/XE 1541 adapter and it fried a few 1541 drives and my parallel port on my PC. I will *never* use such a device again ! From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 01:32:03 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:32:03 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F87B098.2070004@jwsss.com> References: <1334281240.83207.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F87927F.7060804@bitsavers.org> <4F8796E6.3060501@gmail.com> <4F87B098.2070004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F87C863.2040001@gmail.com> On 4/12/2012 9:50 PM, jim s wrote: > we have it covered. A friend goes from the bay area to OC every two > weeks, and San Diego will be a drive. > > there is a Ghirardelli store in San Diego, and I'm out of my stash. > Need I say more. (And my buddy can't make it to the mother ship w/o a > big trip, so guess who rates... Al does). I don't think where you buy Ghirardelli matters much anymore. Its probably about the same in the local super market as any Ghirardelli store. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Apr 13 02:16:35 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 00:16:35 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> <4F7D0526.2070905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: I've been very happy with my ZoomFloppy USB<->?IEC? (commodore serial bus) bridge adapter... On Apr 12, 2012, at 11:12 PM, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > -----Original Message----- From: Jim Brain > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 10:36 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks > >> Not to plug a product per se, but X*1541 and XU*1541 cables/adapters will create D64 images from 1541 disks, which can be used with a myriad of utilities and emulators designed to read such image formats. > >> JIm > > I used an XA/XE 1541 adapter and it fried a few 1541 drives and my parallel port on my PC. I will *never* use such a device again ! > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Apr 13 03:24:16 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:24:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: <4F87717E.5050104@brouhaha.com> References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> <4F86F451.27049.147070E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F87717E.5050104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Certainly the people that built NORC and Stretch knew full well that they > were building dramatically more powerful computers than existed previously. Was that really a drama to build powerful computers, or did they build drastically more powerful computers? ;-) Christian From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Apr 13 03:36:48 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:36:48 +0200 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany Message-ID: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, maybe someone from europe has interes in this and is willing to drive to Frankfurt to collect it. A fairly complete lokking NOVA1200 system. http://www.ebay.de/itm/160781530347 He wrote, that on request he is also able to provide another NOVA 1200 processor and two additional disk drives series 30. I wonder where the price will go... Greetings. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 13 03:37:38 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:37:38 +0200 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120413083737.GA21055@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 04:14:41PM -0600, Richard wrote: > I love this album and had no idea there was a spectrum tie-in; > apparently that was only done for the UK edition? > > Cool! I only knew of one example of this beforehand. The Swedish group "Adolphson & Falk" has a LP with an Atari 8-bit track on it. I have the record and an Atari 800 on the way to test it :) But after reading your link a friend found this: http://www.kempa.com/2004/03/09/vinyl-data/ Which suggest it wasn't _that_ uncommon. And it states that XL-1 only had the data track on UK pressings. Last summer I visited the computer games museum in Berlin: http://www.computerspielemuseum.de They had vinyl records with Basic distributions on them. Apparently floppy disks was hard to come by in East Germany, so vinyl was used instead. Cheers, Pontus. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 13 04:00:09 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 02:00:09 -0700 Subject: ebay: Tektronix (OT: Chocolate review) In-Reply-To: <4F87C863.2040001@gmail.com> References: <1334281240.83207.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F87927F.7060804@bitsavers.org> <4F8796E6.3060501@gmail.com> <4F87B098.2070004@jwsss.com> <4F87C863.2040001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F87EB19.1050408@jwsss.com> definitely not what I buy. I'd not be buying from them if I could find the same elsewhere. I'm not buying the retail stuff, but drops of milk chocolate, which is the best I've found. I can't buy mail order anymore either. On 4/12/2012 11:32 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/12/2012 9:50 PM, jim s wrote: >> we have it covered. A friend goes from the bay area to OC every two >> weeks, and San Diego will be a drive. >> >> there is a Ghirardelli store in San Diego, and I'm out of my stash. >> Need I say more. (And my buddy can't make it to the mother ship w/o >> a big trip, so guess who rates... Al does). > > I don't think where you buy Ghirardelli matters much anymore. Its > probably about the same in the local super market as any Ghirardelli > store. > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 08:43:07 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:43:07 +0100 Subject: Commodore 1591 roms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9 April 2012 07:10, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here know anything about the ROMs to the Commodore 1591 floppy > drive? ?The ROM from this prototype was supposedly dumped and sent on to > ftp.funet.fi, but it's not there. I asked a friend of mine, Steve C, who was once a major CBM collector, about this. This is what he said: ? In the mid-90s I bought a '1591' off of someone advertising it in Micromart, along with an SX-64. Now, I'm not sure if he made it or it was a genuine Commodore prototype; looking inside it appeared to have the drive mech from an Amiga 4000, an eprom with handwritten label and various hand soldered jumpers. I sold it, and some other Commodore rarities, to someone in Canada around fifteen years ago so I've no idea where it may be now. I'd assume something so rare is still being used or at least is in a cupboard, but I can't be any more helpful than that I'm afraid. ? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 08:50:17 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:50:17 +0100 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 13 April 2012 04:08, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/12/2012 10:45 PM, Jason T wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 9:38 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> The way I read it was that the Spectrum didn't make much headway in >>> the US, so releases were fairly limited. ?Here, the "for the masses" >>> machine was the C64, probably owing to the fact that Commodore was an >>> American company. >> >> Correct reading :) ?I know the Spectrum line was huge but, afaik >> (someone will surely correct me,) it wasn't even marketed in the US. >> So a Spectrum tape packaged with a record would be somewhat >> bewildering. >> >> Then again, all the cool kids sought out the import singles, so maybe >> a few made it over here! > > ?I never saw a single one in those days. ?As close as anybody got was > two friends that had Timex-Sinclair 1000s (I had one as well, still have > it) and another friend who had a 2068. > > ?I have STILL never seen a Spectrum in person. ?I'd really love to play > with one. Did you contact the acquaintance of mine from Twitter who was giving away 3 of them for free a few weeks ago? I posted links to the message here. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 09:06:58 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:06:58 -0400 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I have STILL never seen a Spectrum in person. I'd really love to play >> with one. > > Did you contact the acquaintance of mine from Twitter who was giving > away 3 of them for free a few weeks ago? I posted links to the message > here. I never saw that message; I probably would have taken someone up on an offer like that, though if it's someone in the UK I doubt I could spare the shipping at the moment. I've found that a surprising number of posts to this list either land in my spam box or don't make it to me at all (perhaps swallowed by GMail's spam box before it hits my POP/IMAP clients) and I only find out about it through replies. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 09:11:42 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:11:42 +0100 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 13 April 2012 15:06, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 13, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> ?I have STILL never seen a Spectrum in person. ?I'd really love to play >>> with one. >> >> Did you contact the acquaintance of mine from Twitter who was giving >> away 3 of them for free a few weeks ago? I posted links to the message >> here. > > I never saw that message; I probably would have taken someone up on an > offer like that, though if it's someone in the UK I doubt I could > spare the shipping at the moment. > > I've found that a surprising number of posts to this list either land > in my spam box or don't make it to me at all (perhaps swallowed by > GMail's spam box before it hits my POP/IMAP clients) and I only find > out about it through replies. I tick the option in my mail filters that says "never send to spam" if something is from one of my mailing lists. Yes, very occasionally, I get spam from the list itself, but it's a once-or-twice a month thing. Without it, broken threads agogo. E.g. most of Gene's posts Gmail thinks are spammy. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 09:14:16 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:14:16 +0100 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 13 April 2012 15:06, David Riley wrote: > > I never saw that message; I probably would have taken someone up on an > offer like that, though if it's someone in the UK I doubt I could > spare the shipping at the moment. Here is that Spectrum post in full: from Liam Proven lproven at gmail.com to "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" date 9 March 2012 00:16 subject Free Sinclair stuff on Twitter mailed-by gmail.com 9 Mar @DeltaNC: If anyone would like a ZX81, a Rubberkey or a Plus let me know. I have one of each and they're getting skipped otherwise. Untested, no PSUs. @DeltaNC: Reading an old Spectrum instruction manual, specifically about loading software. You "App Store" kids don't know how good you have it! That's https://twitter.com/#!/DeltaNC if you don't speak Tweet. Anyone interested? I think they're in Glasgow. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Apr 13 09:43:45 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:43:45 +0100 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> References: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> Message-ID: Sub zero cool! What's the hardware? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 13 April 2012 13:40 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS Ok. I just thought I'd stir some interest and just general noise by announcing that I've written a small web-server running under RSX. It's written in BASIC+2, and uses the TCP/IP stack for RSX that I've also written. There are probably a bunch of bugs and issues still around, so I'm happy to take any bug reports, comments or whatever. The url is http://madame.update.uu.se/, and if anyone is curious about the code, it's at mim.update.uu.se (same machine, other IP), under MIM::DU:[HTTPD]WWW.B2S (also on HECnet) If people have any interest in this stuff, or something else/more, I'm interested in hearing about it. The TCP/IP stack will eventually (soon) be available for others to download and use, and apart from the web server, I've also written a telnet client, and a few small services under TCP, as well as some tools for administration. I have some polishing to do, I need to finish a DNS resolved, and I'd like to also finish FTP and a telnet server, but I might be open to distributing things before I've finished all those things, especially if someone is interested in helping writing stuff. I have interfaces completed for BASIC+2, PDP-11 C, Macro-11. FORTRAN 77 should also work, but I haven't tried it yet. This all runs under RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6, but I think it should be possible to get running under almost any M+ version, but there might be some hacking needed for some versions. It will not work under 11M, and I never expect it to. One or two drivers as well as one or two tools really are big enough that I need to use the split I/D space feature in M+. Rewriting stuff to not need that is way too much work. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 13 09:52:37 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:52:37 -0700 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> Message-ID: Not sure why I didn't see the original. I have to agree, this is *VERY* cool, as I suspect very few hobbyists have access to a TCP stack for RSX-11M+ at this point! This is also the first I've heard of a web server hosted on a PDP-11 running on something other than RT-11. Are you targeting a specific Ethernet interface? Zane At 3:43 PM +0100 4/13/12, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Sub zero cool! >What's the hardware? > >Regards > >Rod Smallwood > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist >Sent: 13 April 2012 13:40 >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS > >Ok. I just thought I'd stir some interest and just general noise by >announcing that I've written a small web-server running under RSX. >It's written in BASIC+2, and uses the TCP/IP stack for RSX that I've >also written. There are probably a bunch of bugs and issues still >around, so I'm happy to take any bug reports, comments or whatever. > >The url is http://madame.update.uu.se/, and if anyone is curious about >the code, it's at mim.update.uu.se (same machine, other IP), under >MIM::DU:[HTTPD]WWW.B2S (also on HECnet) > >If people have any interest in this stuff, or something else/more, I'm >interested in hearing about it. The TCP/IP stack will eventually (soon) >be available for others to download and use, and apart from the web >server, I've also written a telnet client, and a few small services >under TCP, as well as some tools for administration. I have some >polishing to do, I need to finish a DNS resolved, and I'd like to also >finish FTP and a telnet server, but I might be open to distributing >things before I've finished all those things, especially if someone is >interested in helping writing stuff. > >I have interfaces completed for BASIC+2, PDP-11 C, Macro-11. FORTRAN 77 >should also work, but I haven't tried it yet. > >This all runs under RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6, but I think it should be possible >to get running under almost any M+ version, but there might be some >hacking needed for some versions. >It will not work under 11M, and I never expect it to. One or two drivers >as well as one or two tools really are big enough that I need to use the >split I/D space feature in M+. Rewriting stuff to not need that is way >too much work. > > Johnny > >-- >Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip >email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From slandon at centurylink.net Fri Apr 13 10:23:29 2012 From: slandon at centurylink.net (Steven Landon) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:23:29 -0400 Subject: Complete Apple IIGS for Sale With SCSI Card & Hard Drive Message-ID: <4F8844F1.8000801@centurylink.net> Got a nice complete Apple IIGS for sale 2 3.5 drives Has a 40MB CMS SCSI Hard Drive and SCSI Card- Will include a 1GB bare drive so you can add more space 1MB RAM Expansion Card AE SonicBlaster SoundCard Included will be GS/OS System 6 on Disk so you can set the system up to your specifications. $200 dollars + Shipping or come pick it up. Thanks Steve From bqt at softjar.se Fri Apr 13 07:39:42 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:39:42 +0200 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS Message-ID: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> Ok. I just thought I'd stir some interest and just general noise by announcing that I've written a small web-server running under RSX. It's written in BASIC+2, and uses the TCP/IP stack for RSX that I've also written. There are probably a bunch of bugs and issues still around, so I'm happy to take any bug reports, comments or whatever. The url is http://madame.update.uu.se/, and if anyone is curious about the code, it's at mim.update.uu.se (same machine, other IP), under MIM::DU:[HTTPD]WWW.B2S (also on HECnet) If people have any interest in this stuff, or something else/more, I'm interested in hearing about it. The TCP/IP stack will eventually (soon) be available for others to download and use, and apart from the web server, I've also written a telnet client, and a few small services under TCP, as well as some tools for administration. I have some polishing to do, I need to finish a DNS resolved, and I'd like to also finish FTP and a telnet server, but I might be open to distributing things before I've finished all those things, especially if someone is interested in helping writing stuff. I have interfaces completed for BASIC+2, PDP-11 C, Macro-11. FORTRAN 77 should also work, but I haven't tried it yet. This all runs under RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6, but I think it should be possible to get running under almost any M+ version, but there might be some hacking needed for some versions. It will not work under 11M, and I never expect it to. One or two drivers as well as one or two tools really are big enough that I need to use the split I/D space feature in M+. Rewriting stuff to not need that is way too much work. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 13 10:31:08 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: from Rod Smallwood at "Apr 13, 12 03:43:45 pm" Message-ID: <201204131531.q3DFV8cE14090422@floodgap.com> > Ok. I just thought I'd stir some interest and just general noise by > announcing that I've written a small web-server running under RSX. > It's written in BASIC+2, and uses the TCP/IP stack for RSX that I've > also written. There are probably a bunch of bugs and issues still > around, so I'm happy to take any bug reports, comments or whatever. > > The url is http://madame.update.uu.se/, and if anyone is curious about > the code, it's at mim.update.uu.se (same machine, other IP), under > MIM::DU:[HTTPD]WWW.B2S (also on HECnet) Very nice! I still recommend Gopher as a client. I think it's a great fit for small systems, which is why I still run a Gopher server. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Life is too important to take seriously. -- Corky Siegel ------------------- From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Apr 13 10:31:50 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:31:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have STILL never seen a Spectrum in person. I'd really love to play > with one. I have one and I can bring it to VCF East. Don't think I'll be able to demo it though, my dad converted it to Russian SECAM and I don't have a TV that can display that... Alexey From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 13 10:35:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: from Geoff Reed at "Apr 13, 12 00:16:35 am" Message-ID: <201204131535.q3DFZoA614090444@floodgap.com> > I've been very happy with my ZoomFloppy USB<->?IEC? (commodore serial bus) > bridge adapter... So am I. Loaded a number of Gazette disks onto my G5 yesterday. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The optimum committee has no members. -- Norman Augustine ------------------ From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 13 10:40:30 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> <4F7D0526.2070905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > -----Original Message----- From: Jim Brain > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 10:36 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks > >> Not to plug a product per se, but X*1541 and XU*1541 cables/adapters will >> create D64 images from 1541 disks, which can be used with a myriad of >> utilities and emulators designed to read such image formats. > >> JIm > > I used an XA/XE 1541 adapter and it fried a few 1541 drives and my parallel > port on my PC. I will *never* use such a device again ! > Not the same thing Jeffrey. The XU*1541 & ZoomFloopy are USB based devices, not parallel port devices. I've use my ZF to image about 500 disks and it's the cat's ass when it comes to processing Commodore media. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 13 11:04:27 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Apr 13, 12 08:40:30 am" Message-ID: <201204131604.q3DG4Rx614614614@floodgap.com> > > I used an XA/XE 1541 adapter and it fried a few 1541 drives and my parallel > > port on my PC. I will *never* use such a device again ! > > Not the same thing Jeffrey. The XU*1541 & ZoomFloopy are USB based > devices, not parallel port devices. > > I've use my ZF to image about 500 disks and it's the cat's ass when it > comes to processing Commodore media. Considering where my cat's rear end has been, I would not describe it in that manner. But I like mine too. :) Um, my ZoomFloppy. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group ------------ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 11:10:51 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:10:51 -0500 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F88500B.1040003@gmail.com> On 04/12/2012 10:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/12/2012 10:45 PM, Jason T wrote: > I never saw a single one in those days. As close as anybody got was > two friends that had Timex-Sinclair 1000s (I had one as well, still have > it) and another friend who had a 2068. > > I have STILL never seen a Spectrum in person. I'd really love to play > with one. One day I'll get mine shipped over to this side of the Pond and will make an attempt to haul it to a VCF. I have a ZX80 too, and I think I may have kept hold of a +2 as well (the challenge of course will be hooking them up to a display, because I really don't want to have to move a bunch of PAL-capable TVs over if I can avoid it). I seem to remember that there were some very good Spectrum emulators around too, although of course they can't emulate how truly awful typing on a real Spectrum's keyboard was :-) Incidentally, despite the popularity of the Spectrum in the UK, I probably saw about an equal number of C64s around the same time - there was certainly no shortage of them over there. cheers Jules From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 13 11:06:53 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 09:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help identifying Mystery CDC Terminal... In-Reply-To: <4F87A1BF.7040509@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <1334333213.50602.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> This doesn't really have anything to do with identifying this terminal, but more of a general observation I've made about these old CDC terminals... The keyboards are staggered weird. Look at a normal keyboard, and the keys in the home row are offset 2/3rds off the keys above it. Look at a CDC keyboard from this era, and the keys are offset one HALF. So, the E key is *directly* lined up straight with X key, and so on. Similarly, the 2 key is lined up with the A key. After spending a few hours typing on one of those CDC keyboards, it feels a bit odd to go back to a normal one. With practice, you eventually don't notice any more, but still. It's amazing how much that little shift affects typing until you get used to it. I don't know why they chose to do the layout like this, and I'm not aware of any other manufacturer that did this. Most everyone else used the same typewriter styled staggering. -Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 13 11:53:50 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 09:53:50 -0700 Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> <4F86F451.27049.147070E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F87717E.5050104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F885A1E.10106@brouhaha.com> Christian Corti wrote: > Was that really a drama to build powerful computers, or did they build > drastically more powerful computers? ;-) Merriam-Webster, "dramatic" definition 2b: "striking in appearance or effect". From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 13 12:19:15 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:19:15 +0200 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> References: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> Message-ID: Wow, very nice! Makes me to get more energy in getting the 11/70 running again. I for one would definitely like to see the ftp & telnet server parts. Being able to connect to, from and between 2 machines running RSX would be a major feature for this O.S. Sure, there is/was TCPWare and I had a demo key, but the tk50 media got damaged making that a dead end. Just wondering, how 'big' is the http task? Regards, Ed > Ok. I just thought I'd stir some interest and just general noise by > announcing that I've written a small web-server running under RSX. > It's written in BASIC+2, and uses the TCP/IP stack for RSX that I've > also written. There are probably a bunch of bugs and issues still > around, so I'm happy to take any bug reports, comments or whatever. > > The url is http://madame.update.uu.se/, and if anyone is curious about > the code, it's at mim.update.uu.se (same machine, other IP), under > MIM::DU:[HTTPD]WWW.B2S (also on HECnet) > > If people have any interest in this stuff, or something else/more, I'm > interested in hearing about it. The TCP/IP stack will eventually (soon) > be available for others to download and use, and apart from the web > server, I've also written a telnet client, and a few small services > under TCP, as well as some tools for administration. I have some > polishing to do, I need to finish a DNS resolved, and I'd like to also > finish FTP and a telnet server, but I might be open to distributing > things before I've finished all those things, especially if someone is > interested in helping writing stuff. > > I have interfaces completed for BASIC+2, PDP-11 C, Macro-11. FORTRAN 77 > should also work, but I haven't tried it yet. > > This all runs under RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6, but I think it should be possible > to get running under almost any M+ version, but there might be some > hacking needed for some versions. > It will not work under 11M, and I never expect it to. One or two drivers > as well as one or two tools really are big enough that I need to use the > split I/D space feature in M+. Rewriting stuff to not need that is way > too much work. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 13 13:05:12 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:05:12 +0100 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks, I presume we've all seen this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160781780426+ Prototype Mac 128k with a twiggy drive... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 13 13:11:35 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:11:35 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:05 PM +0100 4/13/12, Adrian Graham wrote: >Folks, > >I presume we've all seen this? > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160781780426+ > >Prototype Mac 128k with a twiggy drive... I've sure never seen anything like that. I'd say that the 'beyond rare' might not be hype, but honestly don't know. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 13 13:42:26 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:42:26 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F887392.9080501@brouhaha.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > I presume we've all seen this? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160781780426+ > > Prototype Mac 128k with a twiggy drive... Based on the icon shown on screen, I suspect that the code in the EPROMs may be too new to be capable of booting from the Twiggy drive. Probably no way to tell without dumping an image of them to inspect. Since he doesn't have software for it anyhow, I suppose that doesn't really matter. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 13 13:37:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:37:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: <20120413083737.GA21055@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Apr 13, 12 10:37:38 am Message-ID: > They had vinyl records with Basic distributions on them. Apparently > floppy disks was hard to come by in East Germany, so vinyl was used > instead. In the easrly 1980s, some UK home computer magazines (for machines like the Spectrum) came with flexile audio records (you played them on a normal record player, at, I think 33+1/3 rpm) contianing programs for whatever machine the magazine covered. -tony From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Apr 13 14:16:48 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 026 in episode of Bones Message-ID: I don't recommend watching this (typical network TV acting and feeble storyline) but it does feature my IBM 026 at the 17:00 mark: http://www.hulu.com/watch/318646/bones-the-crack-in-the-code Here is my baby: http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=IBM026 It works (thanks to the old farts who restored the IBM 1401 at the Computer History Museum). -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Apr 13 14:19:11 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:19:11 +0200 Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) Message-ID: <20120413191911.GD61322@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi guys, Yesterday eavening I've checked my new TSZ07 9 Track Tape on my VS4000/90 the first time, it worked flawlessly. Later I've switched it of with the power button on the fron paneel. This morning the Drived stinked. A smell like an burned transformer. I've pulled the powerchord and leaved to go to work. Now I have dismounted the PSU and looked inside: Shit! There are 2 board in there, the one with the big Heatsink in the middle has on one edge an uncooled TO220 Transistor (or something looking like one) and a wirewound resistor near by. The entire area around them is burned black. Noch chance to read Parts values or so. The PCB is bad also, burned to carbon. Interestingly this PSU (and the entire Drive) is still working... no fuse blown or something. :-| Guys I need urgently an schematic of that PSU to replace this part of the PCB. It isn't the first time that I'm repairing switchmode PSUs even w/o any schematic, but this one really looks bad. The drive is a TSZ07 DEC Drive, I think it is the same as the Cipher M995S, or the otherway around it is a relabeled cipher drive. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Apr 13 14:20:58 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:20:58 +0200 Subject: VMS Problem, please help.. In-Reply-To: <01OE6V7CF6NW0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OE6V7CF6NW0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120413192058.GE61322@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >The mms default call to cc is like this: > >cc /def=("FEAT_NORMAL","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF" ) /opt/prefix=all > >/include=([.proto],decw$include:) BUFFER.C > > > > Hopefully, it should be possible to get MMS to not optimise when compiling > blowfish.c and sha256.c and to optimise when doing the other compilations. > I am not familiar enough with MMS to know how to do this. > > Alternatively, if you compile the two files involved outside of MMS, you will > also need to perform the link step afterwards. > > > > >Interestingls help cc/opt onli has those documented options: > > > >CC > > > > /OPTIMIZE > > > > /OPTIMIZE[=option] (D) > > /NOOPTIMIZE > > > > Controls whether or not the compiler performs code optimization. > > /OPTIMIZE has the following options: > > > > [NO]DISJOINT Directs the compiler to optimize the generated > > machine code. > > > > [NO]INLINE Specifies whether the compiler is allowed to perform > > the function inline optimization. > > > >So my question is, what should /opt/prefix=all so in this case? > > > > /prefix=all is not related to optimisation - the author has just put the > two qualifiers next to each other. /prefix=all directs the compiler add the > prefix "decc$" in front of the names of all runtime library functions. > > I have tested further and it appears that /optimise=disjoint is triggering > the problem. > > > > >Yes, I have compiled the entire source with the crypto features commented > >out, and yes I can compile blowfish.c with that cmdline: > > > >$ cc /def=("FEAT_NORMAL","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF" ) /NOOPT > >/include=([.proto],decw$include:) BLOWFISH.C > > > >..and it compiles sha256.c too. > > > > Great. You may need to compile them with /prefix=all added to the command line > if problems show up with names of runtime library functions at link time. > However, I suspect that /prefix=all is probably the default anyway. > > You should be able to use a command line like: > > $ cc /def=("FEAT_NORMAL","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF" ) /prefix=all > /include=([.proto],decw$include:) /optimise=(inline,nodisjoint) BLOWFISH.C > > > > >Is there further documentation about the compiler optimizations somwhere > >available? > > > > There could be slightly more detail about optimisation in the compiler manual > but it is highly unlightly that the manual would list additional command line > qualifiers that are not documented in the online help. The online help comes > with the compiler and normally documents all the available qualifiers. > > The alpha (and presumably ia64) compilers are quite different to the VAX > compilers internally and may have different options relating to optimisation > so it is important to consult the correct manual. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. Ok thank you. I've compiled the two files with /NOOPT and let do mms the rest optimized. Vim is working now on DecWindows with Motif and aas text version. Again, Thank you Peter, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 13 14:22:37 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:22:37 -0700 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 12, at 11:35 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> (Flippantly, that's also an explanation of why digital has won: so >> you no longer have to sit down with a slide rule to accomplish >> something.) > > Flippant reply : o, you have to sit down with a CAD system to > accomplish > anything (or at least a computer running a cross-development system) > > My expeireence is that analogue and digital design are about equally > hard, but in different ways. Some people take to one, some to the > other. > Yo ucan do simple digital design (a handful of gates and flip- > flops) in > your head. You can do simple analogue design in much the same way. > When > you start making complex state machines, or using microcotnrollers, > prgrammable logic devices, analogue circuits dring 'nasty'' loads > (like a > chopper transsformer), or have many frequnce-ydependant analogue > feedback > loops, then you start neediong to use a calculator or a computer. There is complexity and sophistication in both analog and digital design, and there is still lots to be done in the analog world. What I was getting at is that for problems that can be solved in both domains, doing so in the digital domain (generally via software) allows the designer to focus on the problem and far less so on the physical implementation. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 15:11:04 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:11:04 -0500 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> On 04/13/2012 01:05 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > Folks, > > I presume we've all seen this? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160781780426+ > > Prototype Mac 128k with a twiggy drive... How do they know it's the only one? From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 13 15:18:05 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:18:05 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> References: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> Jules Richardson wrote about the Twiggy Mac: > How do they know it's the only one? They don't. But in the 29 years since they were made, there's no indication that a complete unit has ever turned up for sale before, nor anyone publicly stating that they have one. It's unclear how many of these were made, but probably not too many, and of the few that ever left Apple's hands, most were probably returned to Apple and either modified to use the 3.5-inch drive, or destroyed. It is certainly far more rare than an Apple 1. If there are any others left out there, they're well-hidden. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 15:28:50 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:28:50 -0500 Subject: CP/M directory entries Message-ID: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> Is there any kind of sensible maximum limit for the number of directory entries that a CP/M disk may contain? Or did every vendor just do their own thing (probably!) and it's preferable to just keep parsing from the start of the directory area until either the end of the media is reached, or a location identified as file data by a previous entry is encountered? And, related to that, if the directory area of a CP/M disk spans multiple tracks, was there a standard for whether it iterated head-first (in the event of media with multiple heads) or cylinder-first? Or does code have to cope with both possibilities? I'm just pulling some data off some QX-10 floppies (none of which seem to take up more than a track for the directory area), but it seems like a good idea to make it as generic as possible. cheers Jules From cb at kryoflux.com Fri Apr 13 15:24:12 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 22:24:12 +0200 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 Apr 2012, at 16:43, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> > I mean make KryoFlux do what it was designed to do. Whatever that is. I > assume make perfect images of disks. > KryoFlux was designed to deliver unaltered flux data off floppy disks, making it possible to get the lowest read possible. Certain drives or devices, like the 1541, won't spit out what's on the platter, but interpreted data. This means such data can usually be used (if transferred right) for emulation, but it's usually impossible to write back as copy protection mechanisms usually come with ambiguity or other methods that make it impossible to write such data back to disks. On top of that the 1541 can't read the index, which some protections make use of - when creating a disk. By reading a start mark on track A and then stepping to track B you can try and read a required sequence of data that will be impossible to: a) read in emulation, unless you tweak the data read and spin it around the virtual index as long as it matches. The reason is you don't know which stepping the drive does when reading the disk at the time you image the disk. b) write back to disk, unless you have some aid, e.g. a drive equipped with an index so you can time your writes. There are other things that read back differently (=unaltered or mostly unaltered) through a normal drive. To fully make use of KryoFlux you will a HD 5.25" floppy drive equipped with a -8 stepping mod so you can read flippy floppy disks. If you go for the more hobbyist approach, you can as well add a fake index mod, and read the flip side with wrong index data. Here's some more things to read about the problem: http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3#p1991 This video explains how to mod a drive... Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcqluH7dEj4 Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGxPGavShcE Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW65ynGGiFk >> Do you want access to the contents of the files, or are you archiving >> them? > > I want to know how to use KryoFlux and make it work with Commodore 1541 > floppies. As said above, you need a HD 5.25" drive, which usually needs to be modded. Unless you would want to cut open your disk jackets, remove the platter and place it in a jacket with two index holes. At the moment, KryoFlux will dump C64 disks as .D64 and .D64 with errormap which will allow for using simple protections. More advanced stuff will need .G64 or ultimately .IPF files. .G64 support is being added as I write these lines. Enjoy. Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Products & Services Limited cb at kryoflux.com | www.kryoflux.com 80 Allington Way | Maidstone | ME16 0HN | United Kingdom Incorporation at Companies House, Cardiff, Company No. 07370567 Directors: Richard Rayner, Christian Bartsch From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Apr 13 15:27:13 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:27:13 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> References: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: an awful lot for a machine that won't even boot... or is it just me.... On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote about the Twiggy Mac: >> How do they know it's the only one? > > They don't. But in the 29 years since they were made, there's no indication that a complete unit has ever turned up for sale before, nor anyone publicly stating that they have one. It's unclear how many of these were made, but probably not too many, and of the few that ever left Apple's hands, most were probably returned to Apple and either modified to use the 3.5-inch drive, or destroyed. > > It is certainly far more rare than an Apple 1. If there are any others left out there, they're well-hidden. > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 15:40:43 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:40:43 -0500 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> References: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F888F4B.6050205@gmail.com> On 04/13/2012 03:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote about the Twiggy Mac: >> How do they know it's the only one? > > They don't. But in the 29 years since they were made, there's no indication > that a complete unit has ever turned up for sale before, nor anyone > publicly stating that they have one. It's unclear how many of these were > made, but probably not too many, and of the few that ever left Apple's > hands, most were probably returned to Apple and either modified to use the > 3.5-inch drive, or destroyed. > > It is certainly far more rare than an Apple 1. If there are any others left > out there, they're well-hidden. I'm just picky about people claiming that something is the only one, because so many times it turns out not to be the case (it's a bit like "firsts" :-) I'd much rather they gave the explanation that you did above. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 13 15:41:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:41:50 -0400 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F888F8E.2060603@neurotica.com> On 04/13/2012 04:28 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Is there any kind of sensible maximum limit for the number of directory > entries that a CP/M disk may contain? Or did every vendor just do their > own thing (probably!) and it's preferable to just keep parsing from the > start of the directory area until either the end of the media is > reached, or a location identified as file data by a previous entry is > encountered? This is handled by the DISKDEF macro; one of the values you hand to it when defining a disk format is the number of directory entries. It's pretty arbitrary, but much like configuring the number of inodes in older UNIX filesystems, one can strike a good balance. It's (usually!) silly to have 255 directory entries, for example, on a 180KB disk format. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 15:43:10 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:43:10 -0700 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> Message-ID: Are you writing your own utilities? When I wanted to pull files off of some CPM-86 formatted floppies from a Tektronix 4170 system I used Cpmtools 2.9: http://www.cpm8680.com/cpmtools/index.htm These tools are reasonably generic as far as the disk format goes. There is a disk definition file with some known formats. None of those appeared to exactly match the Tektronix 4170 format so I just added an appropriate definition and then extracted files from the disk images I read from the physical disk using ImageDisk. I actually had to write a simple utility to reorder the sectors as written to the image file from ImageDisk before using Cpmtools on the disk image. ImageDisk wrote the sectors from one side then the next side before moving to the next track. For the Tek 4170 format I had to reorder them from one side increasing tracks, then the next side decreasing tracks. There doesn't seem to be an obvious way to get ImageDisk to reorder the sectors that way when writing an image, and there didn't seem to be an obvious way to get Cpmtools to work with the sectors in ImageDisk order for the Tek 4170 format. -Glen From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 13 15:48:35 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:48:35 -0700 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F889123.4000600@brouhaha.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Is there any kind of sensible maximum limit for the number of > directory entries that a CP/M disk may contain? As far as I can tell, the upper bound appears to be 65535, which back in the day would only have been sensible on a hard disk, and probably not even then. Unfortunately CP/M 2.x determines the number of directory entries is determined by the DPB (Disk Parameter Block) in the BIOS, and not by any on-disk metadata. It is possible that some BIOSes that support multiple media formats on the same drive might dynamically update the DPB based on on-disk metadata stored somewhere in the reserved tracks, but AFAIK there wasn't any standard for that. I haven't looked at CP/M 3, so I don't know whether they improved this. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 13 15:51:22 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:51:22 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: References: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F8891CA.7000105@brouhaha.com> Geoff Reed wrote: > an awful lot for a machine that won't even boot... or is it just me.... It's a lot, but given what the less rare Apple 1 sells for, possibly not completely unreasonable. It's hard to say. I suspect that it might boot from an external 400K drive. Obviously that's not very interesting, other than perhaps providing a diagnostic for all of the hardware other than the Twiggy drive. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 13 16:00:19 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:00:19 -0700 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <4F888F8E.2060603@neurotica.com> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> <4F888F8E.2060603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8893E3.8090006@brouhaha.com> I wrote that the upper bound on directory entries was 65535. I overlooked that there can only be a maximum of 16 allocation blocks used for directory entries, so the maximum is 8192 directory entries, if the allocation block is 16KB, and correspondingly fewer directory entries for smaller allocation block sizes. Typically on a floppy disk the allocation block size would be 1K or 2K, which results in an upper bound of 512 or 1024 directory entries. Eric From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 13 16:03:03 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:03:03 +0200 Subject: ebay: Tektronix 8540, 8560 emulator w/manuals, probes, etc. In-Reply-To: <4F845428.6060106@bitsavers.org> References: <4F845428.6060106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120413230303.0be84e4d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:39:20 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > I'm mainly interested in the TNIX floppies. As I am. But I am on the other side of The Pond... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 13 16:14:42 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:14:42 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F888F4B.6050205@gmail.com> References: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> <4F888F4B.6050205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F889742.8060006@jwsss.com> On 4/13/2012 1:40 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/13/2012 03:18 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote about the Twiggy Mac: >>> How do they know it's the only one? Sort of like the 45 caliber Luger. Made specifically to compete for the 1911 contract with the Army, and exceedingly rare because few left the hands of the US Army or Luger. You hear stories, and a few have popped up, but one never knows. Jim From barythrin at yahoo.com Fri Apr 13 16:27:34 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F8891CA.7000105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1334352454.87986.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Much like an Apple I, it's a novelty/museum piece/price, not something one would likely play with and burn out. There are plenty of non-prototype systems to let the smoke out of. But agreed the price and price of shipping are certainly some max values I would imagine. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 13 16:28:23 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:28:23 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F8891CA.7000105@brouhaha.com> References: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> <4F8891CA.7000105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <7766B30B-BBCC-49C0-BD39-C97A9776B2DC@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 13, at 1:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Geoff Reed wrote: >> an awful lot for a machine that won't even boot... or is it just >> me.... > > It's a lot, but given what the less rare Apple 1 sells for, > possibly not completely unreasonable. It's hard to say. > > I suspect that it might boot from an external 400K drive. > Obviously that's not very interesting, other than perhaps providing > a diagnostic for all of the hardware other than the Twiggy drive. Is anything known about the provenance of this unit? The last photos in the ebay listing appear unrelated, or should I say misleading (the rear with the "Dan Kottke" mention is not the same machine, the jagger note, etc.). Idle wondering .. not like I'm about to bid. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Apr 13 16:41:27 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:41:27 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <1334352454.87986.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1334352454.87986.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <503F91CC-074C-4900-9B89-E397C2FFCFB3@zipcon.net> On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > Much like an Apple I, it's a novelty/museum piece/price, not something one would likely play with and burn out. There are plenty of non-prototype systems to let the smoke out of. > > But agreed the price and price of shipping are certainly some max values I would imagine. > I just can't see having a system, no matter how rare that one would not be able to use. leaving it to bit rot seems a very sad thing to do.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 13 16:43:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120413142548.C83810@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > Is there any kind of sensible maximum limit for the number of directory > entries that a CP/M disk may contain? Or did every vendor just do their own > thing (probably!) and it's preferable to just keep parsing from the start > of the directory area until either the end of the media is reached, or a > location identified as file data by a previous entry is encountered? Do you have access to a working machine? STAT DSK: will display that information. If not, then look for sectors that are NOT DIRectory. > And, related to that, if the directory area of a CP/M disk spans multiple > tracks, was there a standard for whether it iterated head-first (in the > event of media with multiple heads) or cylinder-first? Or does code have to > cope with both possibilities? Yes, there were standards. Standard 1: iterate head first, each side is a track (slightly faster) Standard 2: iterate head first, but count both sides as one track (only obviously different from #1 for some sequences of sectors) Standard 3: iterate cylinder first, When you reach the last cylinder, continue with the first cylinder on the second side Standard 4: iterate cylinder first, When you reach the last cylinder, continue with the first data cylinder on the second side (see "reserved tracks") Standard 5: iterate cylinder first, When you reach the last cylinder, continue with the last cylinder on the second side, and count down (saves a seek to 0 over #3 or #4) (Note that "last" may not match physical last of the disk (see HP), just as "last sector" on a track may not match the number that were formatted on the track) Each person could have their own unique standard. And then, there were a few "Non-standard" ones. > I'm just pulling some data off some QX-10 floppies "Valdocs"? > (none of which seem to > take up more than a track for the directory area), but it seems like a good > idea to make it as generic as possible. If you are dealing with multiple different formats (and QX-10 had several), number-of-blocks of DIRectory is one of your variables. Are you planning to make your code general for formats besides Epson QX10? "Side Pattern" (see above "standards") and "sector sequence within track" are some that can NOT be determined from STAT DSK: display. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 13 16:55:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 17:55:48 -0400 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <503F91CC-074C-4900-9B89-E397C2FFCFB3@zipcon.net> References: <1334352454.87986.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <503F91CC-074C-4900-9B89-E397C2FFCFB3@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <4F88A0E4.5030005@neurotica.com> On 04/13/2012 05:41 PM, Geoff Reed wrote: >> Much like an Apple I, it's a novelty/museum piece/price, not >> something one would likely play with and burn out. There are >> plenty of non-prototype systems to let the smoke out of. >> >> But agreed the price and price of shipping are certainly some max >> values I would imagine. > > I just can't see having a system, no matter how rare that one would > not be able to use. leaving it to bit rot seems a very sad thing to > do.... Why not just FIX it? What am I missing here? -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 13 17:00:05 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: <4FBDD6BCC2C2421F9BAC07806DAEBB3E@ArkCompNew> References: <6514389048AF4B74B8AE8C1CF03666C3@ArkCompNew> <20120404191859.X44165@shell.lmi.net> <4FBDD6BCC2C2421F9BAC07806DAEBB3E@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <20120413145735.R83810@shell.lmi.net> > >What do YOU mean by "read" the disks? On Fri, 13 Apr 2012, Jeffrey Brace wrote: > I mean make KryoFlux do what it was designed to do. Whatever that is. I > assume make perfect images of disks. NOBODY can help until you DEFINE what that is supposed to mean. > >Do you want access to the contents of the files, or are you archiving > >them? > I want to know how to use KryoFlux and make it work with Commodore 1541 > floppies. in terms of acess to the contents of the FILES, or archiving? Your efforts are maningless until you get it straight what you want to do. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 13 17:11:07 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120413150410.S83810@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > As said above, you need a HD 5.25" drive, which usually needs to be > modded. Unless you would want to cut open your disk jackets, remove the > platter and place it in a jacket with two index holes. If "flippies" are the only problem, . . . There IS enough flexibility and slack in the jacket to be able to CAREFULLY punch the other jacket holes (one on each side) without disassembly, using a very ordinary handheld hole punch. My first retail product "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" was a plexiglass pocket jig for marking the positions of where to punch. The "deluxe" version, and the 8" versions, also had a jig for installing center hole re-inforcers. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 13 17:18:58 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The History of SuperComputers In-Reply-To: References: <1334246296.5374.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4F86DF63.3498.F54464@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F8751BB.1030108@brouhaha.com> <4F86F451.27049.147070E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F87717E.5050104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120413151458.F83810@shell.lmi.net> But, once the marketing people heard the term, and realized there was no FORMAL definition, it was subjected to horrendous abuse. At one point, our administration gave me a sheaf of papers to fill out (I refused) for acceptance of a donation of a "SUPER Microcomputer". It was a Z80 machine running MP/M, and we could have found a use for it. But it was no more "Super" than a Packard-Bell PC. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 13 17:42:28 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:42:28 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F88A0E4.5030005@neurotica.com> References: <1334352454.87986.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <503F91CC-074C-4900-9B89-E397C2FFCFB3@zipcon.net> <4F88A0E4.5030005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F88ABD4.7040207@brouhaha.com> On 04/13/2012 02:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/13/2012 05:41 PM, Geoff Reed wrote: >>> Much like an Apple I, it's a novelty/museum piece/price, not >>> something one would likely play with and burn out. There are >>> plenty of non-prototype systems to let the smoke out of. >>> >>> But agreed the price and price of shipping are certainly some max >>> values I would imagine. >> I just can't see having a system, no matter how rare that one would >> not be able to use. leaving it to bit rot seems a very sad thing to >> do.... > Why not just FIX it? What am I missing here? > How do you "fix" not having an OS that will run on it? By writing one yourself? By hacking a released version of MacOS to run on it? From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 13 17:44:47 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:44:47 -0700 Subject: Hub reinforcing rings, alignment disks (was Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks) In-Reply-To: <20120413150410.S83810@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120413150410.S83810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F88AC5F.1010005@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > The "deluxe" version, and the 8" versions, also had a jig for > installing center hole re-inforcers. Speaking of the hub reinforcing rings, does anyone still sell them? I mostly need them for 8", but 5 1/4" would be useful too. I also would like to get some alignment disks, as I have multiple drives that have alignment issues. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 13 17:49:27 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F88A0E4.5030005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1334357367.89841.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 4/13/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I just can't see having a system, no matter how rare > that one would > > not be able to use.? leaving it to bit rot seems a > very sad thing to > > do.... > > ? Why not just FIX it?? What am I missing here? > Well, for one, the software. There isn't any. Nobody knows of any surviving prototype software of any kind that can be booted on that machine. The Macintosh twiggy disk format is not documented in any available form. This is a very early prototype. The title of "beyond rare" is apt - as this is very likely the ONLY one of it's kind that survives. This is purely a curiosity, there really isn't anything that can be done with it, save for writing code from scratch. You won't be able to boot any known version of the system software without simply replacing the ROMs and rigging it to work with a 3 1/2" drive, in which case you'd might as well just use a common stock 128k Mac. -Ian From cb at kryoflux.com Fri Apr 13 18:10:42 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 01:10:42 +0200 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 Apr 2012, at 00:11, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > If "flippies" are the only problem, . . . > There IS enough flexibility and slack in the jacket to be able to > CAREFULLY punch the other jacket holes (one on each side) without > disassembly, using a very ordinary handheld hole punch. My first retail > product "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" was a plexiglass pocket jig for > marking the positions of where to punch. The "deluxe" version, and the > 8" versions, also had a jig for installing center hole re-inforcers. Fred, yes, the index hole is the only real problem. Tell a collector to punch his disks and then start running... :-) Good luck. Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Products & Services Limited cb at kryoflux.com | www.kryoflux.com 80 Allington Way | Maidstone | ME16 0HN | United Kingdom Incorporation at Companies House, Cardiff, Company No. 07370567 Directors: Richard Rayner, Christian Bartsch From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 13 18:11:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:11:13 -0400 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F88B291.3040807@neurotica.com> On 04/13/2012 09:50 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I have STILL never seen a Spectrum in person. I'd really love to play >> with one. > > Did you contact the acquaintance of mine from Twitter who was giving > away 3 of them for free a few weeks ago? I posted links to the message > here. Uh? I never saw that email. I'd probably not want to ship one here from the UK though. But thank you for the thought. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 13 18:22:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:22:25 -0400 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F88ABD4.7040207@brouhaha.com> References: <1334352454.87986.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <503F91CC-074C-4900-9B89-E397C2FFCFB3@zipcon.net> <4F88A0E4.5030005@neurotica.com> <4F88ABD4.7040207@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F88B531.80207@neurotica.com> On 04/13/2012 06:42 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>>> Much like an Apple I, it's a novelty/museum piece/price, not >>>> something one would likely play with and burn out. There are >>>> plenty of non-prototype systems to let the smoke out of. >>>> >>>> But agreed the price and price of shipping are certainly some max >>>> values I would imagine. >>> I just can't see having a system, no matter how rare that one would >>> not be able to use. leaving it to bit rot seems a very sad thing to >>> do.... >> Why not just FIX it? What am I missing here? >> > How do you "fix" not having an OS that will run on it? By writing one > yourself? By hacking a released version of MacOS to run on it? Good point. Is it really the case that there's no software floating around for this machine? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 13 18:26:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:26:16 -0700 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <20120413142548.C83810@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com>, <20120413142548.C83810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F8853A8.13841.1AD05C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2012 at 14:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > Yes, there were standards. Standard 6: (National BLC 86/128) Start in the middle of the disk with the directory on side 1, decrement the cylinder, alternating sides until cylinder 0. Continue from cylinder 40, side 0, incrementing the cylinder, alternating sides until cylinder 79, side 1. Standard 7: (Cifer 2684) Start at the beginning (cylinder 0, side 0), increment alternating sides, but skew each new cylinder sufficiently to accommodate seek time and head settling time. Thus, each successive side and cylinder starts with a different sector. (those are a couple off the top of my head that you failed to mention). --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 18:36:05 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:36:05 -0500 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F88B865.4050801@gmail.com> On 04/13/2012 03:43 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Are you writing your own utilities? > > When I wanted to pull files off of some CPM-86 formatted floppies from > a Tektronix 4170 system I used Cpmtools 2.9: > > http://www.cpm8680.com/cpmtools/index.htm > > These tools are reasonably generic as far as the disk format goes. > There is a disk definition file with some known formats. None of > those appeared to exactly match the Tektronix 4170 format so I just > added an appropriate definition and then extracted files from the disk > images I read from the physical disk using ImageDisk. > > I actually had to write a simple utility to reorder the sectors as > written to the image file from ImageDisk before using Cpmtools on the > disk image. ImageDisk wrote the sectors from one side then the next > side before moving to the next track. For the Tek 4170 format I had > to reorder them from one side increasing tracks, then the next side > decreasing tracks. There doesn't seem to be an obvious way to get > ImageDisk to reorder the sectors that way when writing an image, and > there didn't seem to be an obvious way to get Cpmtools to work with > the sectors in ImageDisk order for the Tek 4170 format. That pretty much resembles what I'm doing; I have a bunch of images in Imagedisk format and needed to write a util on the Linux side to spit them out in the correct order so that cpmtools could process them. I've already got code I wrote to read Imagedisk-format files into a sensible structure in memory, and so it wouldn't be a big step to dump the data into a cpmtools-friendly format - but once I'd read the cpmtools man page discussing the filesystem format, it didn't actually seem like it would be a huge amount more effort to write code to extract the files myself (with the benefit that I can quickly follow it and modify it if I ever need to). cheers Jules From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Apr 13 18:55:25 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:55:25 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: speaking of which, do those "index hole sensor" things you can get for 1541's actually work at all? > From: cb at kryoflux.com > Subject: Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 01:10:42 +0200 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 14 Apr 2012, at 00:11, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > If "flippies" are the only problem, . . . > > There IS enough flexibility and slack in the jacket to be able to > > CAREFULLY punch the other jacket holes (one on each side) without > > disassembly, using a very ordinary handheld hole punch. My first retail > > product "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" was a plexiglass pocket jig for > > marking the positions of where to punch. The "deluxe" version, and the > > 8" versions, also had a jig for installing center hole re-inforcers. > > Fred, > > yes, the index hole is the only real problem. Tell a collector to punch his disks and then start running... :-) > > Good luck. > > > Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Products & Services Limited > > cb at kryoflux.com | www.kryoflux.com > > 80 Allington Way | Maidstone | ME16 0HN | United Kingdom > Incorporation at Companies House, Cardiff, Company No. 07370567 > Directors: Richard Rayner, Christian Bartsch From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 13 19:05:11 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 17:05:11 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <7766B30B-BBCC-49C0-BD39-C97A9776B2DC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> <4F8891CA.7000105@brouhaha.com> <7766B30B-BBCC-49C0-BD39-C97A9776B2DC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F88BF37.30709@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/12 2:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Is anything known about the provenance of this unit? The last photos in the ebay listing appear unrelated, or should I say misleading (the rear with the "Dan Kottke" mention is not the same machine, > the jagger note, etc.). > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?29001-Mac-prototype-I-just-acquired-today hope he got a decent amount from the current guy who's eBaying it. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 13 19:09:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 17:09:05 -0700 Subject: Hub reinforcing rings, alignment disks (was Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks) In-Reply-To: <4F88AC5F.1010005@brouhaha.com> References: , <20120413150410.S83810@shell.lmi.net>, <4F88AC5F.1010005@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F885DB1.19896.1D4363E@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2012 at 15:44, Eric Smith wrote: > Speaking of the hub reinforcing rings, does anyone still sell them? I > mostly need them for 8", but 5 1/4" would be useful too. In my rogue's gallery of floppies, I have a couple with two rings applied at the factory. They were sent by a customer who couldn't figure out why it was possible to copy a disk without errors, but then not be able read it if said floppy was re-inserted. AADs can be had from accurite.com. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 13 19:12:29 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 17:12:29 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F88B531.80207@neurotica.com> References: <1334352454.87986.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <503F91CC-074C-4900-9B89-E397C2FFCFB3@zipcon.net> <4F88A0E4.5030005@neurotica.com> <4F88ABD4.7040207@brouhaha.com> <4F88B531.80207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F88C0ED.9030106@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/12 4:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Good point. Is it really the case that there's no software floating > around for this machine? > Not really. I said at the time it surfaced that Dan Kottke would probably be the only person who might have an OS on twiggy floppies. The version of Inside Mac I scanned a few months ago mention the twiggy disk driver, but that all disappeared after the switch to Sony drives in mid 1983, and the floppy chapter talks only about the .Sony driver. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 13 19:13:32 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:13:32 -0400 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F88C12C.6000602@verizon.net> On 04/13/2012 04:28 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Is there any kind of sensible maximum limit for the number of > directory entries that a CP/M disk may contain? Or did every vendor > just do their own thing (probably!) and it's preferable to just keep > parsing from the start of the directory area until either the end of > the media is reached, or a location identified as file data by a > previous entry is encountered? > > And, related to that, if the directory area of a CP/M disk spans > multiple tracks, was there a standard for whether it iterated > head-first (in the event of media with multiple heads) or > cylinder-first? Or does code have to cope with both possibilities? > > I'm just pulling some data off some QX-10 floppies (none of which seem > to take up more than a track for the directory area), but it seems > like a good idea to make it as generic as possible. > > cheers > > Jules > For practical purposes there are limits. those are the amount of buffer to directory entries, and the time it take to do a linear search. there was only one standard 8"SSSD with resulted in 64 directory entries, 1kbyte allocation size, and a whopping 241allocation block (241K of storage). that averages to 4 allocation blocks or 4K per file and either the disk is full or the directory fills. The other limit is a logical device maximum is 65535 128 byte logical sectors or 8191.875 Kilobytes. since the smallest allocation size allowed for disks over 255Kbytes is 2K that means the largest directory will be 4096 entries (at 32bytes per entry or 128Kbytes of the disk). That represents the wall as far as how high can you go. The lower end is a 82kb (NS* SSSD, and others) where 32 entries eating 1KB of disk and 81K left for storage. If there is a pattern that emerged its that many CP/M files were in the 4-16K size and for the larger disks allocation sizes of 2K or 4K were common with directory sizes based on a range of 4K to 16K per file. So I'd see 5.25" DSQD (720-800k) disks set up to have directories accommodating 128 or 256 entries and the larger hard disks usually set for 512, 1024 or maybe 2048 entries. There may have been some ill conceived few that had way to few entries way to many for the media. I did see on 8MB disk with 16K allocation size (kinda large for practical use) and as a result only 512 entries were possible but the vendor did 1024 (it would break at the 512th file added). NOTE: That was for CP/M-80 though V2.x, cpm 3 fixed the math so logical devices could go to 32mb. At 32MB a 8192 entry directory might make sense but to get a 32MB disk you also used the larger allocation sizes like 8 or 16K and that again limited the number of possible files to less. Some of the CP/M clones P2dos, Suprbdos, and ZPR could allocate devices as large as 2GB but then file sorting and directory times could be painfully slow. That and with a relatively flat directory more than 1024 entries tend to be more annoying than useful. The largest I'd done was a CP/M clone using Suprbdos and a 2GB CF partitioned as four 128MB, and two 512mb logical devices. Those proved to be not manageable as the 512MB partitions with 16K allocation block size the best plan was 32,768 entries. I gave up on that and found a 32MB CF and used that as one 16MB (1024 entries) and four 8MB (512 entries) which has more reasonable proportions. FYI: even with the Suprbdos hash doing a DIR of the 16mb partition was a minute of waiting thing even with a 10mhz Z80 and banked ram. It took 32KBytes of data shuffling (read and parse) for that 1024 directory entry. I didn't get into the fact that CP/M maintains ALLOC Bit map in ram and its size is 1 bit per allocation block so a 8MB disk has 8192 ALLOC bits and need a 1K space (per logical drive) in ram to keep track of them! With 64K of addressable space that alone is painful. There is also a directory buffer but usually thats limited to 128bytes. and if the device is not self cached (IDE,CF are) then the BIOS also has a host sector cache for deblocking and usually that 512or 1025 bytes. So an old style 8mb hard disk could easily hit the system for 1.5k of scarce ram. Allison From slandon at centurylink.net Fri Apr 13 20:21:54 2012 From: slandon at centurylink.net (Steven Landon) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:21:54 -0400 Subject: Last chance for the Free TRS80 Magazines And Books Message-ID: <4F88D132.3090504@centurylink.net> Guys Last chance on this TRS-80 Magazines and books, enough to fill the back of a small car. Its free if you come to my door to get it, Otherwise its headed to the trash monday. Steve Landon Flushing MI From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 13 20:48:55 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 18:48:55 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F88D787.1020503@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/12 11:05 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Prototype Mac 128k with a twiggy drive... > And it is NOT the oldest complete Mac. This is (in the CHM collection) http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/pictures/Mac_Proto_Case_%2315.jpg From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 21:08:35 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 21:08:35 -0500 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <20120413142548.C83810@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com> <20120413142548.C83810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F88DC23.3090207@gmail.com> On 04/13/2012 04:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 13 Apr 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Is there any kind of sensible maximum limit for the number of directory >> entries that a CP/M disk may contain? Or did every vendor just do their own >> thing (probably!) and it's preferable to just keep parsing from the start >> of the directory area until either the end of the media is reached, or a >> location identified as file data by a previous entry is encountered? > > Do you have access to a working machine? > STAT DSK: > will display that information. Thanks - yes, I do, so will give that a try... >> And, related to that, if the directory area of a CP/M disk spans multiple >> tracks, was there a standard for whether it iterated head-first (in the >> event of media with multiple heads) or cylinder-first? Or does code have to >> cope with both possibilities? > > Yes, there were standards. > Standard 1: iterate head first, each side is a track (slightly faster) > ... I suspected that might be the case, although I didn't realize there was quite *that* much variety... >> I'm just pulling some data off some QX-10 floppies > "Valdocs"? Yes, several different releases, but also various other tools, utilities, public domain disks, and a couple of games. The games disks seem to have some form of copy protection such that Imagedisk chokes on them (they work OK on the system itself), but everything else read OK[1]. I just want to check that they are what they claim to be (and haven't been overwritten with e.g. previous owner's financial records!) before I upload them somewhere. [1] Although I have a neat little pile of hub rings sitting on the desk next to me; they were falling off every single one of the PD disks. I don't know how common others have found that, but it's been a *long* time since I've seen a hub ring failure (sadly there's no vendor information on the disks, so I don't know who made them). >> (none of which seem to >> take up more than a track for the directory area), but it seems like a good >> idea to make it as generic as possible. > > If you are dealing with multiple different formats (and QX-10 had > several), number-of-blocks of DIRectory is one of your variables. > Are you planning to make your code general for formats besides Epson QX10? Well, it was just a thought that it it was virtually no effort to make things quite generic, I may as well. I think cpmtools claims a directory entry limit of 128 for the QX-10, which is comfortably within the 512x10 track format of all the disks that I seem to have, but it wouldn't be much work to iterate across multiple tracks for a more flexible reader. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 13 21:40:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <4F8853A8.13841.1AD05C5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com>, <20120413142548.C83810@shell.lmi.net> <4F8853A8.13841.1AD05C5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120413192123.U88815@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Standard 6: (National BLC 86/128) > Start in the middle of the disk with the directory on side 1, > decrement the cylinder, alternating sides until cylinder 0. Continue > from cylinder 40, side 0, incrementing the cylinder, alternating > sides until cylinder 79, side 1. THAT is what I meant when I said "non-standard". I still think that the presence of a track 0 switch and track 0 stop, on the drives, with a "seek to 0", made low tracks faster to get to than center of the disk. I never implemented any of the formats that spread tracks, or even just single disk file-system, accross multiple disks. Would there be any benefit to doing all of the prime numbered cylinders first, then the Fibonacci numbers, etc.? > Standard 7: (Cifer 2684) > Start at the beginning (cylinder 0, side 0), increment alternating > sides, but skew each new cylinder sufficiently to accommodate seek > time and head settling time. Thus, each successive side and cylinder > starts with a different sector. I consider THAT to be an issue of sector sequence within the track issue, rather than "side-pattern". But, I was a beginner working in a vacuum when I wrote XenoCopy, so I came up with my own names for all of the variables. > (those are a couple off the top of my head that you failed to > mention). There are indubitably MANY other possibilities. But, of the 400+ formats of XenoCopy, the majority are CP/M or CP/M like structures, and I needed to make less than 100 special case exceptions within the "CP/M like" formats. And even fewer exceptions among the P-system, MS-DOS, and MS Stand-Alone BASIC formats. -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 13 22:28:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:28:05 -0700 Subject: CP/M directory entries In-Reply-To: <20120413192123.U88815@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F888C82.7060300@gmail.com>, <4F8853A8.13841.1AD05C5@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120413192123.U88815@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F888C55.23035.28A671C@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2012 at 19:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > I still think that the presence of a track 0 switch and track 0 stop, > on the drives, with a "seek to 0", made low tracks faster to get to > than center of the disk. I'm not certain that either way is faster in practice--some BIOS versions use the recalibrate command stepping at the lowest rate, so they're actually slower than a seek. But since opening a file extent involves reading the directory entry, putting the directory in the center means that you half to seek a maximum of half the disk after an open. However, higher-numbered cylinders exhibit higher packing densities, so in theory the center tracks are less reliable than the outer ones. On the other hand, for many controllers (e.g. NEC 765) a reset involves a recalibrate, so cylinder 0 at power-on is the somewhat likely to get clobbered by a hardware glitch. I recall working on a hard disk file system where the allocation information for a cylinder was kept on the first sector of the cylinder. The master allocation bitmap recorded the cylinders that contained unallocated sectors. I don't know if it turned out to be faster. Floppies were always nasty with allocation maps getting clobbered leaving one to wonder how to put things back together again. The first allocation scheme for floppy that I ever wrote used contiguous allocation (create, write, truncate a la RT11) so losing the directory wasn't a serious issue and consecutive file access was always fast. Of course, the application had to have some sort of idea of how large a file was going to be when creating the file. Defragmenting was an obvious burden, but for many applications it was less necessary than you'd think. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 14 00:56:43 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 22:56:43 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F88D787.1020503@bitsavers.org> References: <4F88D787.1020503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F89119B.6090403@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > And it is NOT the oldest complete Mac. > This is (in the CHM collection) > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/pictures/Mac_Proto_Case_%2315.jpg > Is it known whether that machine "works", for any value of "works"? Does CHM have any artifacts relating to the earlier 6809-based Mac prototypes? Those photos provide a fascinating glimpse into one stage of the early Mac development. * It predates the Twiggy drive, and uses a Disk II. Presumably the logic board does not have the drive speed PWM circuitry. Maybe it didn't have the type of sound support found in the production model either, since that was related to the drive speed PWM. * It uses fewer PALs than the production machine, which seems surprising since there don't appear to be too many "jelly bean" parts that could have been absorbed into the additional PALs. Probably the lack of drive speed PWM (and possibly sound) accounts for part of that. * It predates the IWM, and uses a discrete version of the Disk II controller, e.g., with the P6A PROM, LS174 state register, and LS323 data shift register for the state machine. It does not have the 9334/LS259 octal addressable latch used by the Disk II controller, and most likely uses port pins of the 6522 in place of that. It can't offer the "synchronous mode" of the IWM, which would have made it difficult if not impossible for a 68K device driver to support the higher data rate of the later Twiggy or Sony drives. If they wanted to have compatibility with Apple II and III disks, which obviously would have been a huge win during the software development, the controller circuitry must be modified to run at a divide by eight from the main oscillator instead of divide by seven, though it would still be off by 4.4%, making interchange marginal unless you also tweaked the drive motor speed. (The IWM offered choice of 8x for use in the Mac or 7x for use in the Apple II and Lisa.) * It predates the RTC chip, so it appears to have no RTC and hence no "Parameter RAM". * It has three EPROM sockets rather than two, and although the 28-pin sockets could accommodate larger capacity EPROMs, the chip is a 2732 (4K*8), which is obviously only large enough to have a boot loader and maybe a simple monitor or diagnostics. The real software had to be booted into the 128K of RAM. When this prototype was built, the plan for the software was probably much less ambitious than what eventually shipped. At the time, I think 2764 EPROMs (8K*8) weren't yet readily available. Masked ROMs were usually available at about double the density of EPROMs, so they might have had in mind to use three 16K*8 ROMs, for a total of 48KB of firmware. * It uses two 6551 ACIAs for the serial, rather than the 8530 SCC, so it wouldn't be able to support AppleTalk. * Despite using the 6551 ACIA rather than the 8530 SCC, it uses the 26LS30 and 26LS32 for level shifting for the serial ports, which seems like a very unusual choice. * The mouse connector is on the front rather than the back. This seems like a good idea; I wonder why it was changed. * The "Programmer's Switch" is on the back rather than the side. Possibly the vent holes at the bottom of the sides hadn't been planned yet. * The connection for the analog board is different. It looks like the 6-pin power connector is probably compatible with the Apple II power supply, and the other header (J8) is probably for the video signals, though it is surprising that it would need eight pins for that, unless it is actually supplying power to the analog board via that connector. * Like the production 128K Mac, it appears that all of the timing (except for the RTC, which isn't present) is derived from the single 15.6672 MHz crystal. Given that it is using the 6551 ACIA rather than the SCC, there has to be a 1.8432 MHz clock (or within a few %) for the baud rates to be correct. I'd never noticed it before, but the standard Mac clock frequency of 15.6672 is *exactly* eight times the 1.8432 MHz needed for the 6551 baud rate generator. That's not a coincidence. (The SCC in the production Mac can divide down from other frequencies, so it's not an issue there except at the highest serial rates.) In hindsight, the 15.6672 MHz figure must have been chosen as something that would divide exactly to get the desired serial rates, was within the desired range for the video dot clock, and could be divided down to suitable frequencies for the disk controller and 68000. * I wonder what the two pin header (jumper?) J6, between the 68K and the DRAM, was for? From evan at snarc.net Sat Apr 14 01:17:46 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:17:46 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Photochop question for a vintage image! Message-ID: <4F89168A.7090200@snarc.net> Hello, especially to people on the west coast -- because it's 2:16AM ET right now -- I've got a vintage computer image that for which I need some GIMP or Photoshop assistance; any experts out there tonight? If so, then please email me directly, or better yet call me -- 646-546-9999 -- I'll be up until about midnight PT / 3am ET. Thanks!! - Evan From jjacocks at mac.com Fri Apr 13 10:30:39 2012 From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:30:39 -0400 Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: <4F879332.7040200@bitsavers.org> References: <7884E882-CA0A-408C-9075-6A78EAC134A2@gmail.com> <4F879332.7040200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 10:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/12/12 7:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> Indeed! ?I'm actually typing this through an iMate right now on >> an Extended Keyboard II, which is still the best keyboard I can >> find for the Mac > > > The macally ikey is pretty similar to the EKII as far as keyboard > feel and layout. That is the only keyboard I've ever used on USB > Macs since Mr. Jobs' USB keybortions. I fully agree; you _cannot_ design a keyboard for aesthetics, and to Steve, not much else mattered. It's such a critical peripheral to the usability of a machine that you'd think a manufacturer would put some thought in to the design. However, the POS HP board that I'm typing this on would tend to indicate otherwise... - Alex From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 13 13:04:31 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 19:04:31 +0100 Subject: BEYOND RARE! Message-ID: Folks, I presume we've all seen this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160781780426+ Prototype Mac 128k with a twiggy drive... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From lorddoomicus at me.com Fri Apr 13 15:06:52 2012 From: lorddoomicus at me.com (Derrik Walker) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:06:52 -0400 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F887392.9080501@brouhaha.com> References: <4F887392.9080501@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> I presume we've all seen this? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160781780426+ >> >> Prototype Mac 128k with a twiggy drive... > > Based on the icon shown on screen, I suspect that the code in the EPROMs may be too new to be capable of booting from the Twiggy drive. Probably no way to tell without dumping an image of them to inspect. Since he doesn't have software for it anyhow, I suppose that doesn't really matter. > I'm sure it's rare, but $99,995.00 rare? I doubt it. That's two to three times what the typical functioning Apple I goes for. - Derrik From tingox at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 15:12:38 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 22:12:38 +0200 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Richard wrote: > The Terminals Wiki is open for public browsing! > Very cool! congrats! > My intention was to create a single reference site for everything we > can find about terminals. > > Right now, account creation is by request only, but I will open it up > for more public editing gradually over time (I am mostly concerned > about spambots, I don't want this wiki to become a spam ghetto like so > many others). > > I'm trying to make this an authoritative source, not just a hodge-podge > of unsubstantiated opinions. ?To that end, everything I've put into > the wiki so far is sourced from technical documentation (linked to > manx and bitsavers and other sources) or from periodicals on Google > books like Computerworld, InfoWorld, Network World, PC Mag, etc. Need some help with documenting Tandberg terminals? I have a couple of the TDV2200 series model, and was trained to repair TDV2200's and TDV1200's in my first job. I still have the repair documentation. These terminals were often used as terminals for Norsk Data minicomputers, so a large part of the documentation available today is in Norwegian. > Obviously there is tons more information that could be added and that > will happen over time, but there is enough there now to be useful in > looking up weird terminals that you might encounter in the wild. > > One nice thing about Google books is that they index the advertising > as much as they index the articles. ?I'm not sure that traditional > search databases like Nexus/Lexus do that. ?It has meant that I have > been able to find lots of information on terminals through > advertising, including some technical specifications and photos. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 14 03:08:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 04:08:13 -0400 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story In-Reply-To: References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F89306D.4030605@neurotica.com> On 04/13/2012 11:31 AM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> I have STILL never seen a Spectrum in person. I'd really love to play >> with one. > > I have one and I can bring it to VCF East. Don't think I'll be able to > demo it though, my dad converted it to Russian SECAM and I don't have a > TV that can display that... Ahh, don't bother if we can't fire it up and hack on it. ;) I appreciate the thought, though! It will be great to see you at VCF. I really enjoyed our chats last year. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 14 04:42:18 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hub reinforcing rings, alignment disks (was Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks) In-Reply-To: <4F88AC5F.1010005@brouhaha.com> References: <20120413150410.S83810@shell.lmi.net> <4F88AC5F.1010005@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Apr 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> The "deluxe" version, and the 8" versions, also had a jig for installing >> center hole re-inforcers. > > Speaking of the hub reinforcing rings, does anyone still sell them? I mostly > need them for 8", but 5 1/4" would be useful too. I have some new-old-stock floating around my storage unit. > I also would like to get some alignment disks, as I have multiple drives > that have alignment issues. I've wondered now and then how alignment disks are created. Does anyone here know? Would a Kryoflux be of any use in creating them? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 14 04:46:08 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 02:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F88BF37.30709@bitsavers.org> References: <4F888858.3010304@gmail.com> <4F8889FD.8020504@brouhaha.com> <4F8891CA.7000105@brouhaha.com> <7766B30B-BBCC-49C0-BD39-C97A9776B2DC@cs.ubc.ca> <4F88BF37.30709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Apr 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/13/12 2:28 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Is anything known about the provenance of this unit? The last photos in the >> ebay listing appear unrelated, or should I say misleading (the rear with >> the "Dan Kottke" mention is not the same machine, >> the jagger note, etc.). > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?29001-Mac-prototype-I-just-acquired-today > > hope he got a decent amount from the current guy who's eBaying it. Notice that the "gimme a disk" screen shows a 3.5-inch disk rather than a twiggy? I wonder what that means about how development went. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 07:54:40 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 08:54:40 -0400 Subject: ADB-to-USB adapter In-Reply-To: <4F879332.7040200@bitsavers.org> References: <7884E882-CA0A-408C-9075-6A78EAC134A2@gmail.com> <4F879332.7040200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <766378BD-4602-4869-8ED2-FC65C4E353C3@gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/12/12 7:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> Indeed! I'm actually typing this through an iMate right now on >> an Extended Keyboard II, which is still the best keyboard I can >> find for the Mac > > The macally ikey is pretty similar to the EKII as far as keyboard > feel and layout. That is the only keyboard I've ever used on USB > Macs since Mr. Jobs' USB keybortions. I at least like the tactile feel of their most recent keyboards a lot better than that of the mushy ones from the original iMac up to a few years ago. They keep doing away with useful keys ("who uses function keys, anyway?") though, and I still like the feel of the AEK II a lot better. I still haven't spent any significant time with a Model M-style keyboard (of which there are quite a few now), but I'm quite happy with my current setup. - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 14 09:40:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:40:48 -0700 Subject: BEYOND RARE! In-Reply-To: <4F89119B.6090403@brouhaha.com> References: <4F88D787.1020503@bitsavers.org> <4F89119B.6090403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F898C70.4060005@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/12 10:56 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Is it known whether that machine "works", for any value of "works"? > It uses an external Apple II supply, which is why it has the 6 pin connector. This was the second run after switching to the 68k, it appears to still use 8 bit data paths. I would suspect it is very similar to the 6809 design. The eprom has been dumped, and they contain reasonable looking bits. I didn't get anywhere with Dan trying to get any disks to try booting it, so I didn't try to power it on before it was accessioned. From memory, it expects to boot to the P-system. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Apr 14 10:16:43 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Apr 2012, Richard wrote: > The Terminals Wiki is open for public browsing! > > > This is a joint project between myself (username Legalize), > Jason T (username Silent700) and Ian Primus (username Sark). > I am the wiki administrator. Nice, I hope it'll evolve to a rich source of information. I assume that you're not Richard Shuford, he had a great terminals web site. Did you incorporate what he had into the wiki? > Right now, account creation is by request only, but I will open it up > for more public editing gradually over time (I am mostly concerned > about spambots, I don't want this wiki to become a spam ghetto like so > many others). Could you please verify the information about the terminals before you make them public? I have looked at the HP terminals and found only incomplete or wrong information. For example, you write the HP2640 and HP2644 have an i8080 microprocessor. That is wrong, they have an i8008. You write the HP2648A has 8k to 12k RAM, that's also wrong as it can have up to 48k RAM plus up to 12k ROM. Next, if the DEC VT8E consists of a PDP-8, its price surely wasn't only $1900. And the VT100 also has a 132 column mode, not only the VT101. > of unsubstantiated opinions. To that end, everything I've put into > the wiki so far is sourced from technical documentation (linked to > manx and bitsavers and other sources) or from periodicals on Google > books like Computerworld, InfoWorld, Network World, PC Mag, etc. Ehem, are you sure? (see above) Christian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 10:59:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 08:59:16 -0700 Subject: Hub reinforcing rings, alignment disks (was Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks) In-Reply-To: References: , <4F88AC5F.1010005@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4F893C64.29536.8019F@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2012 at 2:42, David Griffith wrote: > I've wondered now and then how alignment disks are created. Does > anyone here know? Would a Kryoflux be of any use in creating them? You need the ability to write a track at a small, controllable offset. That's also why they're so bleeding expensive--you can't use a standard disk duplicator to make them. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 14 11:55:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hub reinforcing rings, alignment disks (was Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks) In-Reply-To: <4F893C64.29536.8019F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F88AC5F.1010005@brouhaha.com>, <4F893C64.29536.8019F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120414095127.C13536@shell.lmi.net> > > I've wondered now and then how alignment disks are created. Does > > anyone here know? Would a Kryoflux be of any use in creating them? On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You need the ability to write a track at a small, controllable > offset. That's also why they're so bleeding expensive--you can't use > a standard disk duplicator to make them. I know that that is how the "Dysan Digital Diadnostic Diskette" is made. With relatively conventional FM or MFM data written out of position. That really doesn't seem all THAT hard to add a micrometer lead screw to the head positioner. 'Course trying to do the progressively further off by sector would be a little harder. What is the writing on a "REAL" ("analog") alignment disk? 'Twould seem that that would need a different head. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 14 12:54:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 10:54:32 -0700 Subject: Hub reinforcing rings, alignment disks (was Re: KryoFlux and Commodore Disks) In-Reply-To: <20120414095127.C13536@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4F893C64.29536.8019F@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120414095127.C13536@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F895768.30831.7189BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2012 at 9:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > What is the writing on a "REAL" ("analog") alignment disk? 'Twould > seem that that would need a different head. I suspect that the issue is one of being able to manipulate write current as well as head offset. i.e., a simple saturating write operation isn't what you want. There's an engineering spec for the Dysan 224a on bitsavers. We set up a rig for doing 100 tpi digital alignment floppies by taking a Micropolis 1015 drive, gutting the Molon stepper on the back and using it as the rear bearing for the leadscrew. We coupled the shaft to a 100:1 precision reduction drive to a separate stepper and mounted the whole affair on a 3/4" aluminum plate and placed in an insulated box. It took forever to get from track 0 to track 76, but we were able to generate digital alignment floppies for the field personnel. Early on, we discovered that, while Micropolis' control on track placement was fine, azimuth was all over the place. Those were weeded out in manufacturing--i.e. drives with out-of-whack azimuth were simply returned to Micropolis. --Chuck From slandon at centurylink.net Sat Apr 14 12:58:56 2012 From: slandon at centurylink.net (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:58:56 -0400 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled Message-ID: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> I really need to get space back in my house and shed. Got 4 Apple IIGS Monitors tested and working at $20 each TRS80 Magazines, Owners Manuals, Documentation, enough to fill the back of the car for free. Box of 50 Pin SCSI Hard Drives 40-80MB Drives $20 Apple //e Platinum tested and working $20 Lots more from PC Stuff to external 3.5 drives all of it. Monday morning it will be recycled. Im located in Flushing MI From wheagy at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 13:52:32 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 14:52:32 -0400 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem Message-ID: Hi, I recently picked up a PET 2001-8. It has a video issue...see http://imgur.com/PKc97 (disregard the black diagonal scan lines...digital camera artifact). I seem to remember reading something about a similar issue, but Google is not returning anything. Does anyone have any leads or ideas? Thanks, Win From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 14:12:55 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:12:55 +0100 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Hi, > > I recently picked up a PET 2001-8. ?It has a video issue...see > http://imgur.com/PKc97 ?(disregard the black diagonal scan lines...digital > camera artifact). A couple of possibilities 1 The processor is not running correctly so has not cleared the video ram 2 The processor cannot write to the video ram (and therefore clear it) My old pet currently has dead main memory but can write to the video memory so processor has control and states 0k http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_05_01_PET_Computer/P4300022.JPG Rom was hacked hence other wording changes Dave Caroline From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Apr 14 14:29:30 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 07:29:30 +1200 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure but I would check the Commodore section on the VCF. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?21-Commodore There are many diagnostic episodes there. Tez On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 6:52 AM, Win Heagy wrote: > Hi, > > I recently picked up a PET 2001-8. It has a video issue...see > http://imgur.com/PKc97 (disregard the black diagonal scan lines...digital > camera artifact). > > I seem to remember reading something about a similar issue, but Google is > not returning anything. Does anyone have any leads or ideas? > > Thanks, > > Win > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 15:28:16 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:28:16 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Win Heagy wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I recently picked up a PET 2001-8. ?It has a video issue...see >> http://imgur.com/PKc97 ?(disregard the black diagonal scan lines...digital >> camera artifact). Not healthy, that's for sure. > A couple of possibilities > > 1 The processor is not running correctly so has not cleared the video ram Yes, but that "random" pattern isn't random enough. All of those chars are inverse, and that's not part of the Character ROM, that's an actual inverter (PETs had a 2K plain-only ROM, VIC-20 and C-64s had 4K ROMs with both plain and inverse characters encoded). > 2 The processor cannot write to the video ram (and therefore clear it) That's also a distinct possibility. Which version of Static PET do you have? They came with different types of ROM and RAM (the schematics for all three variations are posted on zimmers.net). Main memory and video memory use the same chips, 1Kx4 in pairs. You need two working chips for video memory at at least 4 working chips for main memory (the first 1K is taken up with zero page variables, stack, and tape buffers). 2114 SRAMs are notoriously suspect, but 6550s can fail too. Before worrying about RAMs, check your Vcc... there are 4 regulators and 4 legs of +5VDC. If you've lost one, obviously, it will act strange. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 14 14:50:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:50:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 13, 12 12:22:37 pm Message-ID: > There is complexity and sophistication in both analog and digital > design, and there is still lots to be done in the analog world. What > I was getting at is that for problems that can be solved in both > domains, doing so in the digital domain (generally via software) > allows the designer to focus on the problem and far less so on the > physical implementation. I think this depends -- a lot -- on how the designer thinks. Certain;y I find hat for myself going over to the digirtal domain for what are essentially analopgue problems makes them harder to understnad. Sometimes it's the only sensible way to solve the problem, but I certain;y don't think it makes it easier _for me_ to find the solution. -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 14 16:04:48 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204142104.RAA16951@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> What I was getting at is that for problems that can be solved in >> both domains, doing so in the digital domain (generally via >> software) allows the designer to focus on the problem and far less >> so on the physical implementation. > I think this depends -- a lot -- on how the designer thinks. > Certain;y I find hat for myself going over to the digirtal domain for > what are essentially analopgue problems makes them harder to > understnad. Some of the analog designers of the past were amazingly clever. Just today I visited someone who has a Hammond organ with a Leslie. Apparently we are only now learning how to digitially produce the kind of effects the Leslie generates with little more than a motor and a speaker. And look at the way the early DTMF telephone designers got two tones out of a single transistor. Not that doing that today would be all that valuable, but the degree of analog insight necessary to create that circuit is pretty impressive. Well, to me, at least. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 14 18:15:39 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:15:39 -0600 Subject: The Terminals Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > Nice, I hope it'll evolve to a rich source of information. > I assume that you're not Richard Shuford, he had a great terminals web > site. Did you incorporate what he had into the wiki? No, I'm not Richard Shuford. His content is linked from the main page, but it's mostly scraped from newsgroups and would be better linked from google groups archives. Shuford's material has already disappeared from the net once (moved from http to ftp) and is likely to disappear again. > Could you please verify the information about the terminals before you > make them public? That is the advantage of a wiki, it can be updated over time as information is corrected. I can easily create an account and you can correct what you see as errors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 03:56:55 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 05:56:55 -0300 Subject: Nice Sinclair Spectrum story References: <03156529-83D3-417E-8275-17B5DECA7EFF@gmail.com> <4F8798A8.4020103@neurotica.com> <4F88B291.3040807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <032701cd1ae5$e5f62840$020a14ac@tababook> >> Did you contact the acquaintance of mine from Twitter who was giving >> away 3 of them for free a few weeks ago? I posted links to the message >> here. Just for records a friend of mine is in UK. If someone is giving away a +2 or +3 (oh, how I want a +3 and some disks) I'm crazy for one :) From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Apr 15 09:40:21 2012 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 07:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ZX-Spectrum in the U.S. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1334500821.36388.YahooMailNeo@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I worked for Zebra Systems, Inc. in Woodhaven NY which was one of the main Timex/Sinclair mail order houses. My memory of the story is that Timex submitted a Spectrum with an NTSC RF Modulator to the FCC and it failed the approval process. They then redesigned the Spectrum to meet FCC standards, and while they were at it, added new features they felt the American market needed. That resulted in the TS-2068 Computer. I have one of the prototype North American Spectrum units, as well as an Interface One and Cartridge drive. Al Hartman Keansburg, NJ From slandon at centurylink.net Sun Apr 15 12:02:06 2012 From: slandon at centurylink.net (Steven Landon) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:02:06 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale Message-ID: <4F8AFF0E.70402@centurylink.net> Heres my official List of whats for sale Apple IIGS ROM 03 with CMS SCSI II card, AE SonicBlaster, 2 External SCSI Hard Drives, 1 40mb the other 80MB- both come with extra drive mechanisms- Matching Monitor, Keyboard & Mouse $200 plus shipping Apple //e enhanced system loaded Has the 80col/RGB Card, With Color Monitor 100, Echo II Speech Synth Card, Apple II workstation card, Liron Card w/ 3.5 UniDisk Drive, SCSI Card Comes with a DuoDisk Drive, and a 3.5 UniDisk, Super Serial Card, And a Monitor // $300 Tandy 1400HD Laptop- Comes with AC Adapter and Dead Battery, Cant get unit to power up. $40 TRS-80 Color Computer with original owners manuals, joysticks, tape player, software carts. All of it for $50 dollars 4 Apple Disk II Drives $25 each- may need cleaning Apple //c System with AC Adapter and external 5.25 drive $30 + shipping Tandy SL386 w/ 486 upgrade 4MB RAM 80MB HDD $20 AST Advantage Adventure 486/33 with 66mhz overdrive 16MB RAM, 170MB HDD, SoundBlaster 16 w/ IDE and CD-ROM installed $40 Tandy 486 Desktop, SCSI Card 8MB RAM, 250mb HDD $30- Powers on but doesnt POST 8 G3 All in One Molar Macs $20 dollars each- Will not ship these monsters as they weigh 60lbs each- These will have to be recycled if they arent taken soon enough 20 Mac LC 575 systems $20 dollars each- These are also recycle bound 10 Power Mac 5500s $20 each These are also recycle bound Apple ADB Mice $5 dollars each- I have 80 of them Apple //e 80/Col RGB Card made by Taxan $20 Kaypro 2 Nice original System, original owners manuals, system disks and software works fine- Never use it $150 Kaypro IV Plus 88 $40 Commodore SX64- Great condition fully functional, Owners Manual and original disks and carry bag included $175 1 Mac 512k for parts- Powers on, missing Floppy Drive $40 ROM 00 IIGS CPU $20 Will have more as I clean out my closets and shed in the future Steve Landon Flushing MI From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 12:27:07 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 10:27:07 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> I need an eprom eraser about once every two years and the time has come again. Unfortunately my old one has gone missing. Has anyone ever used one of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultraviolet-Light-Lamp-UV-EPROM-Eraser-Eraseable-Timer-/180862754648 . There are a hundred Chinese vendors selling the same thing. I just grabbed one at random. From sander.reiche at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 12:46:08 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:46:08 +0200 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I need an eprom eraser about once every two years and the time has come > again. Unfortunately my old one has gone missing. Has anyone ever used one > of these > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultraviolet-Light-Lamp-UV-EPROM-Eraser-Eraseable-Timer-/180862754648 > . There are a hundred Chinese vendors selling the same thing. I just grabbed > one at random. Call me old fashioned, unknowledgable and noob; I am, in fact, all of them. But couldn't you just put those things in the sun? Which was always the 'scare' when you saw a 'stickered' EPROM and the sticker fell off, with sunlight coming in strong and heavy ;) re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Apr 15 13:01:49 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Sander Reiche wrote: > Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:46:08 +0200 > From: Sander Reiche > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Chinese ebay eprom erasers > > On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I need an eprom eraser about once every two years and the time has come >> again. Unfortunately my old one has gone missing. Has anyone ever used one >> of these >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultraviolet-Light-Lamp-UV-EPROM-Eraser-Eraseable-Timer-/180862754648 >> . There are a hundred Chinese vendors selling the same thing. I just grabbed >> one at random. > > Call me old fashioned, unknowledgable and noob; I am, in fact, all of > them. But couldn't you just put those things in the sun? > Which was always the 'scare' when you saw a 'stickered' EPROM and the > sticker fell off, with sunlight coming in strong and heavy ;) > > re, > > Sander > > -- > ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, > ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr > People have done the experiment with sunlight, it takes weeks, so not terribly practical. Peter Wallace From jws at jwsss.com Sun Apr 15 13:15:50 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:15:50 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8B1056.8050205@jwsss.com> Solar UV radiation w/o intensification has been shown not to erase most eproms. Intensifying it w/o doing something about the IR and visible will probably melt the device, so you get complicated enough to make it not interesting to do so. I do have a question. I have a deuterium source with quite a kick. Anyone have a guess what a deuterium lamp full spectrum would take to do an eeprom? I would not put hours on my good source to do routine erasures, but in a pinch it should be more than enough to do the erasure. I don't have a programmer to check erase state with right now to answer the question and am asking more to get a pointer to the spec as to what it takes to erase than anything else. device is here: http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2011/08/bausch-lomb-deuterium-source-power.html Also have a mercury source: http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2012/03/bausch-and-lomb-mercury-arc-uv-source.html but running it scares me. Jim On 4/15/2012 10:46 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I need an eprom eraser about once every two years and the time has come >> again. Unfortunately my old one has gone missing. Has anyone ever used one >> of these >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultraviolet-Light-Lamp-UV-EPROM-Eraser-Eraseable-Timer-/180862754648 >> . There are a hundred Chinese vendors selling the same thing. I just grabbed >> one at random. > Call me old fashioned, unknowledgable and noob; I am, in fact, all of > them. But couldn't you just put those things in the sun? > Which was always the 'scare' when you saw a 'stickered' EPROM and the > sticker fell off, with sunlight coming in strong and heavy ;) > > re, > > Sander > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 15 13:22:08 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120415112004.Y48874@shell.lmi.net> > Call me old fashioned, unknowledgable and noob; I am, in fact, all of > them. But couldn't you just put those things in the sun? > Which was always the 'scare' when you saw a 'stickered' EPROM and the > sticker fell off, with sunlight coming in strong and heavy ;) It's like using a refrigerator magnet to try to bulk-erase a disk. It works great and instantly, IFF you did not want it erased. If you WANT it to erase, it'll take forever, and never quite finish. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 15 13:23:41 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:23:41 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8B122D.8060407@brouhaha.com> Sander Reiche wrote: > Call me old fashioned, unknowledgable and noob; I am, in fact, all of > them. But couldn't you just put those things in the sun? Yes, in perhaps a month. The total necessary UV does for a typical EPROM is about 15 Watt second/cm^2 at 253.7nm, though wavelengths below 400 nm cause erasure. An EPROM eraser provides about 12 mWs/cm^2. At sea level, exposure to direct sunlight delivers a maximum of about 0.1 mWs/cm^2, so erasing an EPROM will take 120 times longer, or 40 hours, but that is 40 hours of peak sunlight, so the actual time is much longer. The reason you need a UV-opaque label on the window of an EPROM to prevent erasure by room light or sunlight is that erasure is a continuous process, so the bits will start to get flaky long before the part is fully erased. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 15 13:28:24 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:28:24 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:27 AM -0700 4/15/12, mc68010 wrote: >I need an eprom eraser about once every two years and the time has >come again. Unfortunately my old one has gone missing. Has anyone >ever used one of these >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultraviolet-Light-Lamp-UV-EPROM-Eraser-Eraseable-Timer-/180862754648 >. There are a hundred Chinese vendors selling the same thing. I just >grabbed one at random. Looks just like the one I have. Worked fine for me when I needed to program a couple EPROMS for my Commodore 64. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 13:35:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:35:03 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8B1056.8050205@jwsss.com> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net>, , <4F8B1056.8050205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F8AB267.19481.9EF1D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2012 at 11:15, jim s wrote: > Solar UV radiation w/o intensification has been shown not to erase > most eproms. > > Intensifying it w/o doing something about the IR and visible will > probably melt the device, so you get complicated enough to make it not > interesting to do so. > > I do have a question. I have a deuterium source with quite a kick. > Anyone have a guess what a deuterium lamp full spectrum would take to > do an eeprom? I would not put hours on my good source to do routine > erasures, but in a pinch it should be more than enough to do the > erasure. I don't have a programmer to check erase state with right > now to answer the question and am asking more to get a pointer to the > spec as to what it takes to erase than anything else. My first EPROM eraser was a clothes dryer "ozone lamp" mounted inside of an empty coffee can. Worked just fine. They used to be present on many 50s and 60s clothes dryers. You can still get similar lamps, just google for "germicidal lamp" Not horribly expensive. Add an inexpensive mechanical timer if you'd like and you're all set. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 15 13:14:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:14:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <201204142104.RAA16951@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 14, 12 05:04:48 pm Message-ID: > > >> What I was getting at is that for problems that can be solved in > >> both domains, doing so in the digital domain (generally via > >> software) allows the designer to focus on the problem and far less > >> so on the physical implementation. > > I think this depends -- a lot -- on how the designer thinks. > > Certain;y I find hat for myself going over to the digirtal domain for > > what are essentially analopgue problems makes them harder to > > understnad. > > Some of the analog designers of the past were amazingly clever. Just I absolutely agree with you. Far too many so-called designers today try to solve problems by throwing ever more transistor at them. Yes, there most certainyl are times where microprocessor, a DSP, A microcotroller or an FPGA are appropraite. There are also times when they most certainly are not. Far too few people spot the latter. I think I mentioend some time back that I bought some educational kits that were being sold off cheaply over here. They make toy vehicles that do a reverse-and-turn wthen they bang into something. One was designed in the UK, the other was designesd soemwhere in the Far East. The UK one contians a PIC 12C508 microcontrolelr and a motor driver IC on a pre-soldered PCB. You connect that to a pre-assembled motor/gearbox units. There are no scheamtics of program listings in the instructions either. The Far Easten one is a bare PCB and a bag of components. And there's not an IC in sight. It's done with 10 discrete transistors. And you get to put the gearbox together... I regard the second one as more educational _and_ a better design. It does the job properly, it's easier to repari, it's probably more reliable. > today I visited someone who has a Hammond organ with a Leslie. Oh, those are wonderful. I am unable to play one, but I have repaired a couple over the years. Great pieces of machinery., > Apparently we are only now learning how to digitially produce the kind > of effects the Leslie generates with little more than a motor and a > speaker. > > And look at the way the early DTMF telephone designers got two tones > out of a single transistor. Not that doing that today would be all I regard that as one of the all-time great designs. I would love to get one. Unforutantely, they are very rarew in the UK, we didn't have DTMF-capable exhanges until the 1980s AFAIK by which time the DTMF generator in a telephhoe used one of the standard ICs. I have managed to obtain a couple of ratary-dial US telephones (One of which is a Bell 500 set), and a Bell 2500 set DTMF telehoone, but of course with an IC on the PCB under the keypad. Als the companies that sell old telephones on the web say more aobut the colour and styling (which don't really bother me) than the insides. I can't find any compnay that can guarantee to supply a single-transistor+pot_cores DTMF generator. I was recently looking in some 1970s UK electornics magazines. The projects back then, using mostly discrete transistors with a few op-amps or TTL parts sometimes seem to do everything you really need. Adding complex ICs might add a few bells-and-whistles, but I am not sure that's an improvement. -tony From randall.kindig at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 07:04:42 2012 From: randall.kindig at gmail.com (Randy Kindig) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 08:04:42 -0400 Subject: Last chance for the Free TRS80 Magazines And Books In-Reply-To: <4F88D132.3090504@centurylink.net> References: <4F88D132.3090504@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <75B43B31-5764-474A-8D10-98001E492C52@gmail.com> I'm willing to pay for the shipping Randy Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > Guys Last chance on this TRS-80 Magazines and books, enough to fill the back of a small car. > > Its free if you come to my door to get it, Otherwise its headed to the trash monday. > > Steve Landon > Flushing MI > From randall.kindig at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 09:19:34 2012 From: randall.kindig at gmail.com (Randall Kindig) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 10:19:34 -0400 Subject: Last chance for the Free TRS80 Magazines And Books In-Reply-To: <4F88D132.3090504@centurylink.net> References: <4F88D132.3090504@centurylink.net> Message-ID: Steve, I hate to see anything thrown away like this. Is there any way I could get you to pack up and mail me at least some of the items? I would certainly pay for the shipping. I don't recall what items you had. Thanks. Let me know. Randy Kindig Indianapolis On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > Guys Last chance on this TRS-80 Magazines and books, enough to fill the > back of a small car. > > Its free if you come to my door to get it, Otherwise its headed to the > trash monday. > > Steve Landon > Flushing MI > > -- Randy From bqt at softjar.se Sat Apr 14 10:08:54 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:08:54 +0200 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F899306.3060503@softjar.se> On 2012-04-13 16:43, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > Sub zero cool! > What's the hardware? MIM (which is also MADAME) is actually an emulated PDP-11/74 running under E11. Bog standard PC otherwise. But I'm also running this on a real 11/93 at home, but that machine don't have a public IP address. Johnny > > Regards > ? > Rod Smallwood > ? > ? > > -----Original Message----- > From:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: 13 April 2012 13:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS > > Ok. I just thought I'd stir some interest and just general noise by > announcing that I've written a small web-server running under RSX. > It's written in BASIC+2, and uses the TCP/IP stack for RSX that I've > also written. There are probably a bunch of bugs and issues still > around, so I'm happy to take any bug reports, comments or whatever. > > The url ishttp://madame.update.uu.se/, and if anyone is curious about > the code, it's at mim.update.uu.se (same machine, other IP), under > MIM::DU:[HTTPD]WWW.B2S (also on HECnet) > > If people have any interest in this stuff, or something else/more, I'm > interested in hearing about it. The TCP/IP stack will eventually (soon) > be available for others to download and use, and apart from the web > server, I've also written a telnet client, and a few small services > under TCP, as well as some tools for administration. I have some > polishing to do, I need to finish a DNS resolved, and I'd like to also > finish FTP and a telnet server, but I might be open to distributing > things before I've finished all those things, especially if someone is > interested in helping writing stuff. > > I have interfaces completed for BASIC+2, PDP-11 C, Macro-11. FORTRAN 77 > should also work, but I haven't tried it yet. > > This all runs under RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6, but I think it should be possible > to get running under almost any M+ version, but there might be some > hacking needed for some versions. > It will not work under 11M, and I never expect it to. One or two drivers > as well as one or two tools really are big enough that I need to use the > split I/D space feature in M+. Rewriting stuff to not need that is way > too much work. > > Johnny > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: > bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay > hip" - B. Idol -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat Apr 14 10:11:38 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:11:38 +0200 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8993AA.40303@softjar.se> On 2012-04-13 19:00, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Not sure why I didn't see the original. I have to agree, this is > *VERY* cool, as I suspect very few hobbyists have access to a TCP > stack for RSX-11M+ at this point! This is also the first I've heard > of a web server hosted on a PDP-11 running on something other than > RT-11. > > Are you targeting a specific Ethernet interface? Nope. Works fine on both Q-bus and Unibus machines. However, with Q-bus, you need DECnet for now, for the Ethernet interface, while for Unibus you can either go with DECnet, or else the supplied Ethernet driver in the system. And yeah, I have only seen the RT-11 webserver up until now. More to come... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat Apr 14 10:17:14 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 17:17:14 +0200 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8994FA.1090407@softjar.se> On 2012-04-14 00:11, "E. Groenenberg" wrote: > Wow, very nice! > > Makes me to get more energy in getting the 11/70 running again. Please do. All running PDP-11s are nice! > I for one would definitely like to see the ftp& telnet server > parts. Being able to connect to, from and between 2 machines running > RSX would be a major feature for this O.S. Yes. And that will come. And it will be better than TCPware, or other implementations out there. I have some nice ideas... > Sure, there is/was TCPWare and I had a demo key, but the tk50 media > got damaged making that a dead end. I think the image for TCPware is possible to find on the net. And if you have a key, then that problem is also solved... > Just wondering, how 'big' is the http task? Small. 40 disk blocks. The memory requirements are about 5KW of instruction and 5KW of data. But it does use the supervisor RMS library, and the resident BASIC+2 library, so that memory is in addition. I'm working on some more tweaks to this, which might grow it a little more, but it's pretty cool already. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From robert.herget at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 12:08:06 2012 From: robert.herget at gmail.com (Robert Herget) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:08:06 -0500 Subject: WTB: SGI Professional IRIS CPU / Help Needed Message-ID: Hi I was wondering if you still have your Professional Iris 4D/50G? Robert From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 14:01:09 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:01:09 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8B1AF5.5090602@gmail.com> That's what I needed to hear. Just wanted to know they didn't randomly catch fire or stop working after a week. On 4/15/2012 11:28 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Looks just like the one I have. Worked fine for me when I needed to > program a couple EPROMS for my Commodore 64. > > Zane > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 15 14:20:13 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:20:13 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8AB267.19481.9EF1D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net>, , <4F8B1056.8050205@jwsss.com> <4F8AB267.19481.9EF1D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F8B1F6D.3020803@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > just google for "germicidal lamp" Not horribly expensive. Add an > inexpensive mechanical timer if you'd like and you're all set. But remember, the short-wave UV can harm your eyes fairly quickly. Catching a brief glimpse of it won't hurt you, but avoid looking at it any longer than that. Put it in an opaque container. I strongly recommend installing a switch that turns off the lamp when the container is opened. The closer the EPROM window is to the bulb, the faster it will erase. Experiment to find the necessary duration for the part to verify erased, then double the time to ensure a good margin. When the bits first read as erased, the charge of the floating gate is only slightly below the threshold, while you want it to be completely discharged. If you're in a hurry, it is also possible to use a Xenon or Krypton flash tube (provided that it is made from quartz class to not filter out the shortwave UV) to erase the EPROMs nearly instantaneously. Needless to say, this is even more potentially harmful to the eyes. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 15 14:55:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 15:55:08 -0400 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8B1056.8050205@jwsss.com> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> <4F8B1056.8050205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F8B279C.60906@neurotica.com> On 04/15/2012 02:15 PM, jim s wrote: > I do have a question. I have a deuterium source with quite a kick. > Anyone have a guess what a deuterium lamp full spectrum would take to do > an eeprom? I would not put hours on my good source to do routine > erasures, but in a pinch it should be more than enough to do the > erasure. I don't have a programmer to check erase state with right now > to answer the question and am asking more to get a pointer to the spec > as to what it takes to erase than anything else. > > device is here: > > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2011/08/bausch-lomb-deuterium-source-power.html Awesome stuff. I didn't know you hacked on that sort of stuff. You should be on the "lasers" list that I run. It's not just lasers, but other optics and high-energy physics stuff. There are some serious heavy hitters on that list, including a technical celebrity or two. (maybe three) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 15 15:15:42 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Far too many so-called designers today try to solve problems by > throwing ever more transistor at them. > Yes, there most certainyl are times where microprocessor, a DSP, A > microcotroller or an FPGA are appropraite. There are also times when > they most certainly are not. Far too few people spot the latter. To toot my own horn a little in this respect, I recently had occasion to build something that could switch power to a camera on for something like ten seconds every two minutes (neither time interval needed to be exact). This was because the things in the field would be battery-powered and we wanted to save battery, and needed only time-lapse photography anyway. (The purpose was to create a time-lapse movie of a construction project.) My first reaction was a 555 with a few external discretes to convert the 555's voltage-level output into a current switch. Built it, and it worked. (I used bipolar transistors for the switching because that's what I know; a FET would maybe have made more sense as the switch.) Then someone mentioned doing it with an Arduino or something of that ilk. But, on investigating, the uP solution would have drawn enough power to significantly impair battery life as compared to my circuit. Apparently my first reaction was the righter answer. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brain at jbrain.com Sun Apr 15 15:33:29 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 15:33:29 -0500 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net> <4F8B04EB.4000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8B3099.9090900@jbrain.com> On 4/15/2012 1:28 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:27 AM -0700 4/15/12, mc68010 wrote: >> I need an eprom eraser about once every two years and the time has >> come again. Unfortunately my old one has gone missing. Has anyone >> ever used one of these >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultraviolet-Light-Lamp-UV-EPROM-Eraser-Eraseable-Timer-/180862754648 >> . There are a hundred Chinese vendors selling the same thing. I just >> grabbed one at random. > > Looks just like the one I have. Worked fine for me when I needed to > program a couple EPROMS for my Commodore 64. > > Zane > > > > I'll second that. I use just like this, has always worked fine for me. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 17:07:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:07:45 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8AFF0E.70402@centurylink.net> References: <4F8AFF0E.70402@centurylink.net> Message-ID: On Apr 15, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > I like how you pretend we all have no memory. See: http://www.applefritter.com/node/4452 http://www.applefritter.com/node/4283 http://www.applefritter.com/node/22161 And so many more. Go away, we don't need people like you breaking down the trust that keeps communities like these together. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 17:23:31 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:23:31 -0400 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <4F8993AA.40303@softjar.se> References: <4F8993AA.40303@softjar.se> Message-ID: <0B17AA7E-7BAC-4E92-8D2D-C2CC805F0C12@gmail.com> On Apr 14, 2012, at 11:11 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2012-04-13 19:00, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> Not sure why I didn't see the original. I have to agree, this is >> *VERY* cool, as I suspect very few hobbyists have access to a TCP >> stack for RSX-11M+ at this point! This is also the first I've heard >> of a web server hosted on a PDP-11 running on something other than >> RT-11. >> >> Are you targeting a specific Ethernet interface? > > Nope. Works fine on both Q-bus and Unibus machines. However, with Q-bus, you need DECnet for now, for the Ethernet interface, while for Unibus you can either go with DECnet, or else the supplied Ethernet driver in the system. > > And yeah, I have only seen the RT-11 webserver up until now. > > More to come... Yes, this is super-exciting! Now, when you mentioned it was too big for non-split I&D, was that the whole web task + IP stack, or was the stack alone too big? I have an 11/23 (I also don't have enough RAM to run RSX-11M+, but that's a little more easily rectified). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 15 17:25:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 15:25:03 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers Message-ID: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2012 at 12:20, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > just google for "germicidal lamp" Not horribly expensive. Add an > > inexpensive mechanical timer if you'd like and you're all set. > > But remember, the short-wave UV can harm your eyes fairly quickly. > Catching a brief glimpse of it won't hurt you, but avoid looking at it > any longer than that. Put it in an opaque container. I strongly > recommend installing a switch that turns off the lamp when the > container is opened. Hence my coffee can container. Not convenient to turn upside down and stare into. One could add a microswitch or even a mercury switch to enforce an interlock, but I never found it necessary. > If you're in a hurry, it is also possible to use a Xenon or Krypton > flash tube (provided that it is made from quartz class to not filter > out the shortwave UV) to erase the EPROMs nearly instantaneously. > Needless to say, this is even more potentially harmful to the eyes. Should be easy enough to find if one hoarded the disposable camera innards. A carbon arc will also do just fine (I remember how brightly the luminous face on a watch would glow when held to the observation port of an Ashcraft projector can. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jqc4GiMQE0). A MIG welder would also probably generate enough short-wave UV. I wonder if enough UV would get through, say, an ordinary 75 watt mercury-vapor luminaire. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 17:41:51 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:41:51 -0400 Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: <20120413191911.GD61322@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120413191911.GD61322@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <386F0C30-3CAF-448C-BB7C-C4FFD6E23784@gmail.com> On Apr 13, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Yesterday eavening I've checked my new TSZ07 9 Track Tape on my VS4000/90 > the first time, it worked flawlessly. Later I've switched it of with the > power button on the fron paneel. > This morning the Drived stinked. A smell like an burned transformer. > I've pulled the powerchord and leaved to go to work. > > Now I have dismounted the PSU and looked inside: Shit! > > There are 2 board in there, the one with the big Heatsink in the middle has > on one edge an uncooled TO220 Transistor (or something looking like one) > and a wirewound resistor near by. The entire area around them is burned > black. Noch chance to read Parts values or so. The PCB is bad also, burned > to carbon. Interestingly this PSU (and the entire Drive) is still > working... no fuse blown or something. :-| Don't panic immediately; exploding resistors can make a big mess *on* things without making a big mess *of* things. Is the PCB actually burned, or is it just covered in black crap from an exploding resistor or capacitor? Is it also possible that you have an area of the board which routinely gets rather toasty, which tends to discolor it over time? FR-4 tends to bubble a bit when it gets way too hot, so look for that if you suspect something's been getting dangerously hot. Can't help you on schematics or expertise, except to give you the same advice found on the cover of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. :-) Your trusty towel, sadly, might not help here, but you never know. - Dave From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Apr 15 18:58:41 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 00:58:41 +0100 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F8B60B1.3@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/04/2012 21:15, Mouse wrote: > To toot my own horn a little in this respect, I recently had occasion > to build something that could switch power to a camera on for something > like ten seconds every two minutes [...] > My first reaction was a 555 with a few external discretes to convert the > 555's voltage-level output into a current switch. Built it, and it > worked. (I used bipolar transistors for the switching because that's > what I know; a FET would maybe have made more sense as the switch.) > > Then someone mentioned doing it with an Arduino or something of that > ilk. But, on investigating, the uP solution would have drawn enough > power to significantly impair battery life as compared to my circuit. > Apparently my first reaction was the righter answer. :) I wanted a slave flash trigger which would be compact, and smart enough to work for ordinary flashes (from an SLR with a conventional flashgun) or for a compact (which has a pre-flash that can't be disabled). My design used a small PIC, a phototransistor, a few resistors, a small thyristor, and a CR2032 lithium cell. It's turned on and off by a momentary pushbutton, or can be made to go to sleep or wake up by the PIC's internal timer. It runs for months on a single CR2032, because the current draw is very low. So a properly-designed uP solution needn't be a problem. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 20:01:51 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 21:01:51 -0400 Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: <4F8B60B1.3@dunnington.plus.com> References: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F8B60B1.3@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <6F3A3EDB-4A81-4545-89E4-09234E8B3162@gmail.com> On Apr 15, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Then someone mentioned doing it with an Arduino or something of that >> ilk. But, on investigating, the uP solution would have drawn enough >> power to significantly impair battery life as compared to my circuit. >> Apparently my first reaction was the righter answer. :) > > I wanted a slave flash trigger which would be compact, and smart enough to work for ordinary flashes (from an SLR with a conventional flashgun) or for a compact (which has a pre-flash that can't be disabled). My design used a small PIC, a phototransistor, a few resistors, a small thyristor, and a CR2032 lithium cell. It's turned on and off by a momentary pushbutton, or can be made to go to sleep or wake up by the PIC's internal timer. It runs for months on a single CR2032, because the current draw is very low. So a properly-designed uP solution needn't be a problem. Yes, but an Arduino is seldom part of that solution space for the low-power domain. Great for tooling around, yes, but you need to be rather careful in doing low-power design. I did a PIR sensor for a wildlife camera motion detector complete with ambient temperature sensing (for the PIR delta temperature), light sensing (to enable an external flash) and picture rate throttling on the smallest MSP430 (2K program space, 128 byte SRAM) and it ran under 10 uA average. I did in C because other people would have to maintain it; I probably could have cut down the size more if I used assembler. I don't want to think about what the execution time (and thus the current consumption) would have been for an interpreted language. Forth, though, might have been a good solution space there. That's what I'm using for our new line of wireless sensor nodes (at least for the on-board peripheral board drivers; can you tell I miss Open Firmware?). Compact representation, reasonable execution time, what's the problem? (answer: The AVR is a terrible platform for a Forth interpreter, but at least that's not our only CPU architecture) - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 20:05:41 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 21:05:41 -0400 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <4F8B66A6.1070807@softjar.se> References: <4F8B66A6.1070807@softjar.se> Message-ID: <440AF9FF-3710-4FD7-BD8E-F3A941B39696@gmail.com> On Apr 15, 2012, at 8:24 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2012-04-16 02:04, David Riley wrote: > >> Yes, this is super-exciting! Now, when you mentioned it was too big >> for non-split I&D, was that the whole web task + IP stack, or was the >> stack alone too big? I have an 11/23 (I also don't have enough RAM >> to run RSX-11M+, but that's a little more easily rectified). > > Unfortunately it's specific bits of the stack that are too large. If it had been the combination, then it would not have been a problem. RSX don't have a problem with several tasks combined using plenty of memory. It is individual bits that are limited to 64K. > And actually, the story goes on a little further. To make a long story short, a device driver in RSX is normally limited to 4 KW. You can extend that to 8KW by a little fiddling. Unfortunately, my TCP driver needs more than 4KW of instruction space, and then 4 KW of data space as well, which is the problem. In M+, I can handle this, since I- and D-space are separate, so the TCP driver works with just a little fiddling. In 11M, I would have to do some serious rewriting and possibly manual overlaying in order to make it work. It is possible, and there are some device drivers that actually do this kind of stuff (most notably the terminal device driver). But it is a rather complex task to fix. Hm. Might encourage me to learn some RSX device driver development once my thesis is done (if I don't finish this semester, I'm pretty sure my wife will actually murder me). > And it is actually only the TCP driver that is the problem. Evert other component fits withing the existing address space allowed even with split I- and D-space. > > But then again, the TCP code is the most complex piece... Hm. Is it possible to split off the UDP portion? I would imagine that's a much less complex stack, and a lot of the applications I'd be interested in could be done in UDP fairly easily. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 15 20:56:39 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 21:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: <6F3A3EDB-4A81-4545-89E4-09234E8B3162@gmail.com> References: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F8B60B1.3@dunnington.plus.com> <6F3A3EDB-4A81-4545-89E4-09234E8B3162@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204160156.VAA14735@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Then someone mentioned doing it with an Arduino or something of >>> that ilk. But, on investigating, the uP solution would have drawn >>> enough power to significantly impair battery life as compared to my >>> circuit. Apparently my first reaction was the righter answer. :) >> I wanted a slave flash trigger which would be compact, and smart enough to $ Please don't use paragraph-length lines. >> I wanted a slave flash trigger [...]. My design used a small PIC, >> [...]. It runs for months on a single CR2032, [...] > Yes, but an Arduino is seldom part of that solution space for the > low-power domain. True. I'm sure it's possible to get lower-power than a 555, too, in the non-processor solution space. I was really comparing the first-reaction "use a processor" solution to the first-reaction "use discretes and maybe simple LSI" solution. The camera drew enough power that a milliamp this way or that in control circuit draw was pretty much ignorable, though, so there was little incentive to put more human time into improving it, especially in view of the limited amount of improvement that was even possible. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 21:21:33 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:21:33 +1000 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> References: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Ok. I just thought I'd stir some interest and just general noise by > announcing that I've written a small web-server running under RSX. Excellent effort! well done. Any RSTS/E experts have an opinion on what might be needed to allow it to work via the RTS mechanism in RSTS/E? From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 21:24:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:24:57 -0400 Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: <201204160156.VAA14735@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F8B60B1.3@dunnington.plus.com> <6F3A3EDB-4A81-4545-89E4-09234E8B3162@gmail.com> <201204160156.VAA14735@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3201C9D6-90D6-4519-A234-99FE01804145@gmail.com> On Apr 15, 2012, at 9:56 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> Then someone mentioned doing it with an Arduino or something of >>>> that ilk. But, on investigating, the uP solution would have drawn >>>> enough power to significantly impair battery life as compared to my >>>> circuit. Apparently my first reaction was the righter answer. :) >>> I wanted a slave flash trigger which would be compact, and smart enough to $ > > Please don't use paragraph-length lines. I should point out that I've been rather scrupulous of late in trimming my lines down (though since my mail client doesn't support even a column count or right margin, it's largely guesswork). The line you trimmed there was from a quote from someone else; I'm not particularly interested in hunting through the mail I'm quoting to reduce the line length. >>> I wanted a slave flash trigger [...]. My design used a small PIC, >>> [...]. It runs for months on a single CR2032, [...] >> Yes, but an Arduino is seldom part of that solution space for the >> low-power domain. > > True. I'm sure it's possible to get lower-power than a 555, too, in > the non-processor solution space. I was really comparing the > first-reaction "use a processor" solution to the first-reaction "use > discretes and maybe simple LSI" solution. Indeed. The 555 is a great solution to a great many things, and much more appropriate than a processor for a lot of things PICs get used for. It's not the lowest-power IC, but it's simple and does analog things that a CPU has a hard time with. And you can draw out the schematic for it on one page of notebook paper; I somewhat doubt you could do the same with even Arduino BASIC code to do the same thing (maybe not; I don't use it much). > The camera drew enough power that a milliamp this way or that in > control circuit draw was pretty much ignorable, though, so there was > little incentive to put more human time into improving it, especially > in view of the limited amount of improvement that was even possible. Well, that's the important thing, no? For me, the requirement for the PIR sensor was to run off a coin cell for as long as possible. Sounds like you didn't have quite such stringent requirements. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 15 22:02:44 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 23:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: <3201C9D6-90D6-4519-A234-99FE01804145@gmail.com> References: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F8B60B1.3@dunnington.plus.com> <6F3A3EDB-4A81-4545-89E4-09234E8B3162@gmail.com> <201204160156.VAA14735@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3201C9D6-90D6-4519-A234-99FE01804145@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204160302.XAA15900@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> I wanted a slave flash trigger which would be compact, and smart enough to $ >> Please don't use paragraph-length lines. > The line you trimmed there was from a quote from someone else; True. That actually was intended for the person who produced the paragraph-length line (in this case, by converting a perfectly reasonable paragraph into a single quoted long line), not the person (you) who quoted it. I should have made that clearer. > Indeed. The 555 is a great solution to a great many things, [...] Yeah. It's a fun little chip. >> [...] a milliamp this way or that in control circuit draw was pretty >> much ignorable, [...] > For me, the requirement for the PIR sensor was to run off a coin cell > for as long as possible. Sounds like you didn't have quite such > stringent requirements. Very true. Different goals -> different solutions.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 15 23:49:58 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 21:49:58 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8B1F6D.3020803@brouhaha.com> References: <4F7230CF.1080900@centurylink.net>, , , , <4F8B1056.8050205@jwsss.com> <4F8AB267.19481.9EF1D1@cclist.sydex.com>,<4F8B1F6D.3020803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:20:13 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: Chinese ebay eprom erasers > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > just google for "germicidal lamp" Not horribly expensive. Add an > > inexpensive mechanical timer if you'd like and you're all set. > > But remember, the short-wave UV can harm your eyes fairly quickly. > Catching a brief glimpse of it won't hurt you, but avoid looking at it > any longer than that. Put it in an opaque container. I strongly > recommend installing a switch that turns off the lamp when the container > is opened. > > The closer the EPROM window is to the bulb, the faster it will erase. > Experiment to find the necessary duration for the part to verify erased, > then double the time to ensure a good margin. When the bits first read > as erased, the charge of the floating gate is only slightly below the > threshold, while you want it to be completely discharged. > > If you're in a hurry, it is also possible to use a Xenon or Krypton > flash tube (provided that it is made from quartz class to not filter out > the shortwave UV) to erase the EPROMs nearly instantaneously. Needless > to say, this is even more potentially harmful to the eyes. Hi Actually that isn't exactly true. That frequency of UV don't even get to your retina. It is mostly stopped in you cornia so you don't even have to be looking at it. If there is any direct line of sight between the source and your cornia, it will damge your cornia. Most surfaces don't relect it well so you don't usually have to worry about it bouncing off some paper or wood surface. Even metals are not particularly good reflectors. I wouldn't use prolonged exposure to a reflected source but it is most likely only a fraction of what the direct source is. Dwight > From bqt at softjar.se Sun Apr 15 19:24:06 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 02:24:06 +0200 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8B66A6.1070807@softjar.se> On 2012-04-16 02:04, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 14, 2012, at 11:11 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > On 2012-04-13 19:00, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>> >> Not sure why I didn't see the original. I have to agree, this is >>> >> *VERY* cool, as I suspect very few hobbyists have access to a TCP >>> >> stack for RSX-11M+ at this point! This is also the first I've heard >>> >> of a web server hosted on a PDP-11 running on something other than >>> >> RT-11. >>> >> >>> >> Are you targeting a specific Ethernet interface? >> > >> > Nope. Works fine on both Q-bus and Unibus machines. However, with Q-bus, you need DECnet for now, for the Ethernet interface, while for Unibus you can either go with DECnet, or else the supplied Ethernet driver in the system. >> > >> > And yeah, I have only seen the RT-11 webserver up until now. >> > >> > More to come... > Yes, this is super-exciting! Now, when you mentioned it was too big > for non-split I&D, was that the whole web task + IP stack, or was the > stack alone too big? I have an 11/23 (I also don't have enough RAM > to run RSX-11M+, but that's a little more easily rectified). Unfortunately it's specific bits of the stack that are too large. If it had been the combination, then it would not have been a problem. RSX don't have a problem with several tasks combined using plenty of memory. It is individual bits that are limited to 64K. And actually, the story goes on a little further. To make a long story short, a device driver in RSX is normally limited to 4 KW. You can extend that to 8KW by a little fiddling. Unfortunately, my TCP driver needs more than 4KW of instruction space, and then 4 KW of data space as well, which is the problem. In M+, I can handle this, since I- and D-space are separate, so the TCP driver works with just a little fiddling. In 11M, I would have to do some serious rewriting and possibly manual overlaying in order to make it work. It is possible, and there are some device drivers that actually do this kind of stuff (most notably the terminal device driver). But it is a rather complex task to fix. And it is actually only the TCP driver that is the problem. Evert other component fits withing the existing address space allowed even with split I- and D-space. But then again, the TCP code is the most complex piece... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 16 01:53:21 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 07:53:21 +0100 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <201204160156.VAA14735@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F8B60B1.3@dunnington.plus.com> <6F3A3EDB-4A81-4545-89E4-09234E8B3162@gmail.com> <201204160156.VAA14735@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F8BC1E1.1020904@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/04/2012 02:56, Mouse wrote: > Please don't use paragraph-length lines. Ouch. Something's happened to Thunderbird; those lines were supposed to wrap at 72, and they certainly used to... >>> I wanted a slave flash trigger [...]. My design used a small >>> PIC, [...]. It runs for months on a single CR2032, [...] >> Yes, but an Arduino is seldom part of that solution space for the >> low-power domain. I've never used one. But it does look overkill. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 16 02:20:15 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 00:20:15 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F8BC82F.4040303@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > If you're in a hurry, it is also possible to use a Xenon or Krypton > flash tube (provided that it is made from quartz class to not filter > out the shortwave UV) to erase the EPROMs nearly instantaneously. > Needless to say, this is even more potentially harmful to the eyes. Chuck Guzis wrote: > Should be easy enough to find if one hoarded the disposable camera > innards. The ones I've seen use a normal glass envelope, so much of the shortwave UV is filtered out. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 16 02:14:24 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:14:24 +0100 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <201204160156.VAA14735@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204152015.QAA08655@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F8B60B1.3@dunnington.plus.com> <6F3A3EDB-4A81-4545-89E4-09234E8B3162@gmail.com> <201204160156.VAA14735@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F8BC6D0.1020008@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/04/2012 02:56, Mouse wrote: > Please don't use paragraph-length lines. This should be the way the gods intended. I've set it to not flowed for sending plain text messages. Somewhere along the path of ridiculously frequent Thunderbird upgrades, a default has changed, and I didn't notice. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 02:56:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 03:56:09 -0400 Subject: Web server running on RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: References: <4F881E8E.6060502@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4F8BD099.80906@neurotica.com> On 04/15/2012 10:21 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Ok. I just thought I'd stir some interest and just general noise by >> announcing that I've written a small web-server running under RSX. > > Excellent effort! well done. > > Any RSTS/E experts have an opinion on what might be needed to allow it > to work via the RTS mechanism in RSTS/E? Johnny mentioned that his IP stack is implemented (at least in part) as device drivers, which won't be portable enough to run under RSTS/E without very heavy modification. It'd probably be easier to rewrite it from scratch. The RTS system works very well for "ordinary" executables but not for device drivers or very deep system-level stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 06:56:53 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:56:53 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update Message-ID: Hi, I'm offering a reward of $500 to anyone who is able to find any of several IBM documents. I'm not including the list in this message because the table I have prepared might not be displayed correctly with anything except a fixed-width font and I have no idea what each of you are using. Anyway, the details can be found here: http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25164&p=207984#p207984 Cheers, Bogdan From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Apr 16 06:57:25 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:57:25 +0200 Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: <386F0C30-3CAF-448C-BB7C-C4FFD6E23784@gmail.com> References: <20120413191911.GD61322@beast.freibergnet.de> <386F0C30-3CAF-448C-BB7C-C4FFD6E23784@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120416115725.GB32624@beast.freibergnet.de> David Riley wrote: > On Apr 13, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > Yesterday eavening I've checked my new TSZ07 9 Track Tape on my VS4000/90 > > the first time, it worked flawlessly. Later I've switched it of with the > > power button on the fron paneel. > > This morning the Drived stinked. A smell like an burned transformer. > > I've pulled the powerchord and leaved to go to work. > > > > Now I have dismounted the PSU and looked inside: Shit! > > > > There are 2 board in there, the one with the big Heatsink in the middle has > > on one edge an uncooled TO220 Transistor (or something looking like one) > > and a wirewound resistor near by. The entire area around them is burned > > black. Noch chance to read Parts values or so. The PCB is bad also, burned > > to carbon. Interestingly this PSU (and the entire Drive) is still > > working... no fuse blown or something. :-| > > Don't panic immediately; exploding resistors can make a big mess *on* > things without making a big mess *of* things. Is the PCB actually > burned, or is it just covered in black crap from an exploding resistor > or capacitor? Is it also possible that you have an area of the board > which routinely gets rather toasty, which tends to discolor it over > time? FR-4 tends to bubble a bit when it gets way too hot, so look > for that if you suspect something's been getting dangerously hot. > > Can't help you on schematics or expertise, except to give you the > same advice found on the cover of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the > Galaxy. :-) Your trusty towel, sadly, might not help here, but you > never know. > > > - Dave > :-) For sure the towel doesn't help in this case but.... http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?thread[threadid]=8363 I'm still interested in the schematics.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 07:37:37 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:37:37 -0400 Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: <20120416115725.GB32624@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120413191911.GD61322@beast.freibergnet.de> <386F0C30-3CAF-448C-BB7C-C4FFD6E23784@gmail.com> <20120416115725.GB32624@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Apr 16, 2012, at 7:57 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > For sure the towel doesn't help in this case but.... > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?thread[threadid]=8363 Ouch. Yeah, that looks like the wirewound resistor (at least) got WAY too hot. You can see the FR-4 fibers poking through, which means the board temperature was probably way above design (assuming a reasonable thermal design). Still, I'd be surprised if it were fatal damage, especially since it's probably a 2-layer board with no plated through holes. I imagine it's not too structurally sound anymore, though (I guess that's why you put in the perf? My German isn't so good, though I think I can guess what "brutalen Aktion" means). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 07:40:05 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:40:05 -0400 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8BC82F.4040303@brouhaha.com> References: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4F8BC82F.4040303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5FBD7409-DCF9-4352-8B26-C3485DEBAC06@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2012, at 3:20 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > >> If you're in a hurry, it is also possible to use a Xenon or Krypton >> flash tube (provided that it is made from quartz class to not filter >> out the shortwave UV) to erase the EPROMs nearly instantaneously. >> Needless to say, this is even more potentially harmful to the eyes. > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Should be easy enough to find if one hoarded the disposable camera >> innards. > The ones I've seen use a normal glass envelope, so much of the shortwave UV is filtered out. They make great little improvised tasers, though, if you extend the storage cap leads out. :-) - Dave From wheagy at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 08:02:50 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:02:50 -0400 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Win Heagy wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I recently picked up a PET 2001-8. ?It has a video issue...see >> http://imgur.com/PKc97 ?(disregard the black diagonal scan lines...digital >> camera artifact). > 2 The processor cannot write to the video ram (and therefore clear it) >>>That's also a distinct possibility. >>>Which version of Static PET do you have? They came with different >>>types of ROM and RAM (the schematics for all three variations are >>>posted on zimmers.net). Main memory and video memory use the same >>>chips, 1Kx4 in pairs. You need two working chips for video memory at >>>at least 4 working chips for main memory (the first 1K is taken up >>>with zero page variables, stack, and tape buffers). 2114 SRAMs are >>>notoriously suspect, but 6550s can fail too. Is it possible to tell the version by looking at the board? I posted a pic at http://imgur.com/3aeiL >>>Before worrying about RAMs, check your Vcc... there are 4 regulators >>>and 4 legs of +5VDC. If you've lost one, obviously, it will act >>>strange. I checked the 4 regulators and they are all outputting +5VDC. The most deviation I saw was +4.94VDC. Thanks...Win From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Apr 16 08:07:37 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:07:37 +0200 Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: References: <20120413191911.GD61322@beast.freibergnet.de> <386F0C30-3CAF-448C-BB7C-C4FFD6E23784@gmail.com> <20120416115725.GB32624@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120416130737.GA35444@beast.freibergnet.de> David Riley wrote: > On Apr 16, 2012, at 7:57 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > For sure the towel doesn't help in this case but.... > > > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?thread[threadid]=8363 > > Ouch. Yeah, that looks like the wirewound resistor (at least) got > WAY too hot. You can see the FR-4 fibers poking through, which > means the board temperature was probably way above design (assuming > a reasonable thermal design). Still, I'd be surprised if it were > fatal damage, especially since it's probably a 2-layer board with > no plated through holes. I imagine it's not too structurally sound > anymore, though (I guess that's why you put in the perf? My German > isn't so good, though I think I can guess what "brutalen Aktion" > means). > > > - Dave > It's near the same in english, "~ I've decided to do a brutal action.." ...since I don't trusted the isolation capabilities of the burned pcb anymore. This all looked pretty much like pure carbon (wich it not was..) If the unit is switched of with the on/off Button on the front, the parts in the PSU heating up to around 45?C (~115?F). The Fan isn't working in this case. I don't think that this alone is enough to toast the PCB like it was. I don't know the function of the Part in question until now, I think this makes some standby Power for the PSU itself. I've tried to trace what's going on there, but it is getting to complicated.. 2 boards, 3 Transformers, one is connected over a diode to the wirewound resistor and than to the drain of the FET ...??? ...and not even the Pinout of the connectors on the PSU. I think the FET was blown sometime in the past and the Resistor was overloaded then. That dosn't prevented the PSU from working..it was only the burning smell that alarmed me.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 16 08:01:00 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:01:00 -0500 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: <4F8AFF0E.70402@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <201204161309.q3GD9Y3G025236@billy.ezwind.net> At 05:07 PM 4/15/2012, David Riley wrote: >On Apr 15, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > >> How can this fellow continue scamming, year after year? - John From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Apr 16 08:26:11 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:26:11 +0100 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <5FBD7409-DCF9-4352-8B26-C3485DEBAC06@gmail.com> References: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4F8BC82F.4040303@brouhaha.com> <5FBD7409-DCF9-4352-8B26-C3485DEBAC06@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 16 April 2012 13:40, David Riley wrote: > > They make great little improvised tasers, though, if you extend the > storage cap leads out. :-) In the UK, at least, just by doing that you can face a charge of "manufacturing a prohibited weapon". 8-| This lad was lucky and got away with it: http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1490483_court-frees-physics-buff-after-he-made-stun-guns-in-his-bedroom From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 08:46:13 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:46:13 -0400 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4F8BC82F.4040303@brouhaha.com> <5FBD7409-DCF9-4352-8B26-C3485DEBAC06@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 16, 2012, at 9:26 AM, Rob wrote: > On 16 April 2012 13:40, David Riley wrote: >> >> They make great little improvised tasers, though, if you extend the >> storage cap leads out. :-) > > > In the UK, at least, just by doing that you can face a charge of > "manufacturing a prohibited weapon". 8-| > > This lad was lucky and got away with it: > http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1490483_court-frees-physics-buff-after-he-made-stun-guns-in-his-bedroom *sigh* Yes, here in the US they let us own a great deal more dangerous weapons once we've reached the age of majority (I think it may be a secret population control plan). I don't think they're worried about people getting a (generally non-lethal) shock from camera flashes. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 08:55:12 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:55:12 -0400 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Win Heagy wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Win Heagy wrote: >>> I recently picked up a PET 2001-8. ?It has a video issue...see >>> http://imgur.com/PKc97 > >> 2 The processor cannot write to the video ram (and therefore clear it) > >>>>That's also a distinct possibility. > >>>>Which version of Static PET do you have? ?They came with different >>>>types of ROM and RAM... > > Is it possible to tell the version by looking at the board? I posted a pic > at > http://imgur.com/3aeiL Yep. You have a 1st generation board with 6550 SRAMs. >>>>Before worrying about RAMs, check your Vcc... there are 4 regulators >>>>and 4 legs of +5VDC. > > I checked the 4 regulators and they are all outputting +5VDC. ?The most > deviation I saw was +4.94VDC. The tolerance is more like 10%, so your Vcc appears fine. Try powering up with the video RAMs removed (they are in the back and look like they have dots on them). With no RAM, the PET should power up to a blank screen whether the CPU can write the video RAM or not. If you see an all-white screen or screen with the same character all over, you have a problem with one or more chips in the video circuit. It is repairable but will take some measuring and sleuthing. If the screen is blank when no video RAM is installed, you might just have a dead RAM or two. -ethan From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Mon Apr 16 09:30:42 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:30:42 -0400 Subject: SCSI-1 to IDE converter board Message-ID: <000f01cd1bdd$81996ad0$84cc4070$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Months ago there was some discussion about a SCSI-1 to IDE converter project. There appears to be some general need for older SCSI-1 based computers to replace their hard drives with more available models. Unfortunately there are no "free and open" solutions as of yet AFAIK. I've designed a PCB that converts SCSI-1 to IDE and SD. There are about 8 PCBs left. I am looking for some volunteers to help build and test the board. So far we know the basic board boots but still need more software to handle the SCSI-1 to IDE or SD conversion. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=MINI%20SCSI%20t o%20IDE%20prototypes If you are willing to volunteer and have some experience in building, testing, debugging, and writing software this would be a good project. Please contact me by email for more information. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 10:14:02 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:14:02 +0100 Subject: Register competition Message-ID: This should be easy for the assembled, I reckon. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/14/reg_picture_puzzler/ I'm not entering myself - although I'm not an employee, I write for them. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 16 11:40:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120416093743.Y88101@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Bogdan Barbu wrote: > I'm offering a reward of $500 to anyone who is able to find any of > several IBM documents. I'm not including the list in this message > because the table I have prepared might not be displayed correctly > with anything except a fixed-width font and I have no idea what each > of you are using. Anyway, the details can be found here: > http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25164&p=207984#p207984 You won't just TELL us what you want??!? Based on assuming that we can't view a fixed width fone??!? Nor even what general category they are??!? (EAM, 360, engineering, 5150, etc.) We've probably got most of them, but you need to avoid adding hurdles to your request. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 16 11:49:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:49:20 -0700 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <20120416093743.Y88101@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120416093743.Y88101@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F8C4D90.6020807@bitsavers.org> On 4/16/12 9:40 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Bogdan Barbu wrote: >> I'm offering a reward of $500 to anyone who is able to find any of >> several IBM documents. I'm not including the list in this message >> because the table I have prepared might not be displayed correctly >> with anything except a fixed-width font and I have no idea what each >> of you are using. Anyway, the details can be found here: >> http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25164&p=207984#p207984 > > You won't just TELL us what you want??!? > Based on assuming that we can't view a fixed width fone??!? > Nor even what general category they are??!? > (EAM, 360, engineering, 5150, etc.) > > We've probably got most of them, but you need to avoid adding hurdles to > your request. > > > > +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | DOCUMENT TITLE | PART NO. | FORM NO. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Update for the IBM Personal System/2 Hardware Technical Reference | | S10G-6466 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | IBM Personal System/2 Mouse Technical Reference | | S68X-2229-00 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | 8514/A Adapter Interface Application Developer's Guide | 68X2279 | S68X-2279 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Personal System/2 Display Adapter 8514/A | 68X2248 | S68X-2248 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Enhanced Graphics Adapter (includes the Enhanced Color | 6280131 | SS34-0007 | | Display and the Graphics Memory Expansion Card) | | | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 16 11:54:47 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:54:47 -0500 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <20120416093743.Y88101@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120416093743.Y88101@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201204161655.q3GGsvGE031392@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:40 AM 4/16/2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >You won't just TELL us what you want??!? >Based on assuming that we can't view a fixed width fone??!? >Nor even what general category they are??!? >(EAM, 360, engineering, 5150, etc.) | DOCUMENT TITLE | PART NO. | FORM NO. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Update for the IBM Personal System/2 Hardware Technical Reference | | S10G-6466 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | IBM Personal System/2 Mouse Technical Reference | | S68X-2229-00 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | 8514/A Adapter Interface Application Developer's Guide | 68X2279 | S68X-2279 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Personal System/2 Display Adapter 8514/A | 68X2248 | S68X-2248 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Enhanced Graphics Adapter (includes the Enhanced Color | 6280131 | SS34-0007 | | Display and the Graphics Memory Expansion Card) | | | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 11:56:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:56:45 -0700 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <20120416093743.Y88101@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120416093743.Y88101@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F8BECDD.11672.2D5EFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2012 at 9:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > We've probably got most of them, but you need to avoid adding hurdles > to your request. Mostly IBM PS/2 documents: Update for the IBM Personal System/2 Hardware Technical Reference S10G-6466 IBM Personal System/2 Mouse Technical Reference S68X-2229-00 8514/A Adapter Interface Application Developer's Guide S68X-2279 Personal System/2 Display Adapter 8514/A S68X-2248 Enhanced Graphics Adapter (includes the Enhanced Color Display and the Graphics Memory Expansion Card) 6280131 SS34-0007 I suspect that at least some of them are online. Surely several of them must be in the O&A books. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 16 11:57:34 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4F8BC82F.4040303@brouhaha.com> <5FBD7409-DCF9-4352-8B26-C3485DEBAC06@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> In the UK, at least, just by doing that you can face a charge of >> "manufacturing a prohibited weapon". 8-| >> >> This lad was lucky and got away with it: >> http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1490483_court-frees-physics-buff-after-he-made-stun-guns-in-his-bedroom > > *sigh* Yes, here in the US they let us own a great deal more dangerous > weapons once we've reached the age of majority (I think it may be a > secret population control plan). I don't think they're worried about > people getting a (generally non-lethal) shock from camera flashes. > I keep wondering when they're going to change the UK flag to be reflective silver stripes on a safety yellow background... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 16 12:18:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:18:54 -0700 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <4F8BECDD.11672.2D5EFD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120416093743.Y88101@shell.lmi.net> <4F8BECDD.11672.2D5EFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F8C547E.8000207@bitsavers.org> On 4/16/12 9:56 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suspect that at least some of them are online. They are not, nor are they in print. He is also quite specific about the revision number. What he is looking for appears to be pretty rare. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 16 12:27:30 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:27:30 -0600 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4F8BC82F.4040303@brouhaha.com> <5FBD7409-DCF9-4352-8B26-C3485DEBAC06@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8C5682.4040204@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/16/2012 10:57 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I keep wondering when they're going to change the UK flag to be > reflective silver stripes on a safety yellow background... When the boatload of duct-tape sp? comes from Canada. Mind you then they would have to get new t-shirts for all the girls that want wear the the UK flag as a outfit. > g. > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Apr 16 12:34:23 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:34:23 +0200 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive Message-ID: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, I'm thinking of getting my Zilog System 8000 maybe one day back to life... this includes multiple tasks. - get a working harddrive - get a working tapedrive - get access to tapes containing the OS and the diagnostics Right now I'm thinking of the tapedrive part. The original drive is a DEI CMTD-3400 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dei/CMTD-3400S2_4tk6400bpi_1979.pdf I have one but it is broken in multiple ways - the previous owner I got the drive from replaced it in the 80s as it was failing (no further details available) - the motor does not run smootly - it does not start on its own when powered up and the UPM is changing. I was not able to open it. - the rubber wheel went to fluid (usual problem...) I now got a so called "Quantex 2200" which is a 19" case with two Quantex 650 drives which should be able to handle the same tape format as the DEI drive. All I was able to find about this drive was: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/quantex/TM1001_650_Jul81.pdf Does anyone have any experience with this drive? I wonder if I could make it "connection compatible" somehow with the DEI drive. The manual itself talks about a controller board which is the only whay the drives can be bus driven - it looks like the drives in this 2200 case do not have this optional controller board. Maybe they do not have it because the big plate in top of the case is a controller board for both drives... Who knows - I did not find anything usefull about this 2200 case nor how it is supposed to be connected to what (pinouts). The rubber wheels are as well went fluid. I could also need some ideas how to get a QIC drive capable of reading and writing DC300XL QIC cartridges hooked up to a PC with BSD or Linux running as in some point in the future. I must be able to copy the system tapes (reading + writing) with a PC. Pics of this 2200 case: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/S8000/Quantex-2200 Greetings, Oliver From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 16 12:41:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga PIO-Gen In-Reply-To: References: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4F8BC82F.4040303@brouhaha.com> <5FBD7409-DCF9-4352-8B26-C3485DEBAC06@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120416103915.B88101@shell.lmi.net> Genlock for the Amiga 500, 1000, 2000? In box, probably never used, but kicked around for a long time. Anybody have a use for it? (Pickup in Berkeley, or pay $20 (rounded UP) for Priority Mail postage) -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 16 12:47:19 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:47:19 +0000 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <201204161309.q3GD9Y3G025236@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 4/16/12 6:01 AM, "John Foust" wrote: >At 05:07 PM 4/15/2012, David Riley wrote: >>On Apr 15, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Steven Landon wrote: >> >>> > >How can this fellow continue scamming, year after year? > >- John > "There's a sucker born every minute." -- P.T. Barnum From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 16 13:08:19 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:08:19 -0700 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org> On 4/16/12 10:34 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I could also need some ideas how to get a QIC drive capable of > reading and writing DC300XL QIC cartridges hooked up to a PC > with BSD or Linux running as in some point in the future. > I must be able to copy the system tapes (reading + writing) with > a PC. > Just because the cartridge fits into a QIC drive doesn't mean that what was written on it is in the same GCR encoding format used by them. 3M cartridges and drives existed before the QIC standards, and there are many incompatible formats that were written on them. If you look in DEI or 3M documenatation, the on-tape format is not the same as used on QIC drives. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 16 13:02:42 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:02:42 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message: Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:01:00 -0500 From: John Foust At 05:07 PM 4/15/2012, David Riley wrote: >On Apr 15, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > >> > How can this fellow continue scamming, year after year? > - John Well, as he gets banned from one forum/list after another, he just moves on to the next; looks like he's found a home here at last... To his credit some people have apparently bought from him with no issues, but I'd still be wondering if any of the stuff he's flogging now is part of the loot he stole from fellow hobbyists in his prime... From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 16 13:07:29 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:07:29 -0400 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem References: Message-ID: <5E446805A6C942CE8223F5E73849006C@vl420mt> ----- Original Message: Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:55:12 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks > Try powering up with the video RAMs removed (they are in the back and look > like they have dots on them). With no RAM, the PET should power up to a > blank screen Tsk, tsk, Ethan, you know better than that ;-) A PET with a working video section and video RAM removed will show the classic checkerboard pattern or under certain circumstances a pattern of small black squares. No doubt there's considerable PET knowledge on this list, but as Terry suggested previously the VCF forum or one of the PET/CBM-specific lists might be a better place to find help with a sick PET... m From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 16 13:13:51 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:13:51 -0700 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8C615F.1050204@bitsavers.org> > "There's a sucker born every minute." -- P.T. Barnum > He should just go over to http://www.vintage-computer.com After what I've tried to ignore on cctalk this past month, it should be obvious why. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 13:26:48 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:26:48 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 16, 2012, at 2:02 PM, MikeS wrote: >> How can this fellow continue scamming, year after year? >> - John > > Well, as he gets banned from one forum/list after another, he just moves on to the next; looks like he's found a home here at last... > > To his credit some people have apparently bought from him with no issues, but I'd still be wondering if any of the stuff he's flogging now is part of the loot he stole from fellow hobbyists in his prime... Yes, and given that much of the previous material I mention specifically discussed how legitimate his merchandise seemed and how he lied and made garbage up when caught, it makes me uneasy. It's a shame; that's a lot of nice stuff that I'd love to have, if it exists. I just can't be sure it exists, and I'd need a bit more proof of redemption before I'd commit money to this, because I've been burned by similar things in the past and I'm not about to again. And, like you said, it could be hot merchandise, which has legal implications. For me, his writing style is far too much like my old landlord in West Virginia for me to trust him (not that I think he's the same guy, but it throws up immediate (possibly spurious) red flags because that guy was a liar and a scammer as well). - Dave From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Apr 16 13:29:43 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:29:43 +0200 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org> References: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120416202943.Horde.OJtPN6Qd9PdPjGUXu-3BH5Q@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Al, Al Kossow wrote: > If you look > in DEI or 3M documenatation, the on-tape format is not the same as > used on QIC drives. Does this mean, that the cartriges used with this drive are not written in the QIC format? The original drive is a DEI CMTD-3400 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dei/CMTD-3400S2_4tk6400bpi_1979.pdf So there is no way at all to copy those tapes with a QIC drive on a PC? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 13:39:18 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:39:18 -0400 Subject: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <5E446805A6C942CE8223F5E73849006C@vl420mt> References: <5E446805A6C942CE8223F5E73849006C@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:07 PM, MikeS wrote: > ----- Original Message: > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:55:12 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > > >> Try powering up with the video RAMs removed (they are in the back and look >> like they have dots on them). ?With no RAM, the PET should power up to a >> blank screen > > Tsk, tsk, Ethan, you know better than that ;-) Yeah... thinking about it - that's what you get with the Character ROM removed... sorry. The thing I was trying to communicate was that the video should certainly be uniform with the RAM removed. I just misremembered what "empty" does. > A PET with a working video section and video RAM removed will show the > classic checkerboard pattern or under certain circumstances a pattern of > small black squares. Right... the character for 0xFF is the 50% checkerboard - it would look largely the same in inverse video (unless you count from the edge which "phase" it is). > No doubt there's considerable PET knowledge on this list, but as Terry > suggested previously the VCF forum or one of the PET/CBM-specific lists > might be a better place to find help with a sick PET... Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places to keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. -ethan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Apr 16 13:53:51 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:53:51 +0200 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8C615F.1050204@bitsavers.org> References: <4F8C615F.1050204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120416185351.GA4356@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:13:51AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > >"There's a sucker born every minute." -- P.T. Barnum > > > > He should just go over to http://www.vintage-computer.com Uhm, are you suggesting VC and it's forums are full of suckers? Either way he has already been there and gotten kicked off. > After what I've tried to ignore on cctalk this past month, it should > be obvious why. I must have missed something. /P From brian at ptubes.com Mon Apr 16 13:57:08 2012 From: brian at ptubes.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 11:57:08 -0700 Subject: Minivac 6010 Message-ID: <4F8C6B84.10914.1199B751@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi -- friends of mine found an intact, in-box Minivac 6010 with manuals and wires etc in their mother's closet in Ohio. Just as a FYI for them, any info on valuation? I see virtually no trades of these in Google searches. tanks Brian From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 16 13:58:20 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:58:20 -0500 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> At 01:26 PM 4/16/2012, David Riley wrote: >For me, his writing style is far too much like my old >landlord in West Virginia for me to trust him (not that I >think he's the same guy, but it throws up immediate >(possibly spurious) red flags because that guy was a liar >and a scammer as well). I asked about about an item. He said he only accepts PayPal to his fiancee's account at paskojes at msu.edu. He says he's under ebay "flintsecondhandtreasures". I asked for his address and phone number; he ignored me. He even refused my offer to send cash. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 13:52:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:52:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 15, 12 03:25:03 pm Message-ID: > Should be easy enough to find if one hoarded the disposable camera Do camera flash tubes emit enough UV for this? Since it wouldn't be required for the intneded applciation of taking photos, and since, I guess, a special quartz tube is needed, I a doubtful. > I wonder if enough UV would get through, say, an ordinary 75 watt > mercury-vapor luminaire. I doubt it. The 'black light' tubes used in discos, etc, and the PCB-exposure tubes do not generate enough far UV to erase EPROMs in a sensible time. The UV erase tube looks very different to a PCB exposure tube. The former is transparent (quartz I guess) amd you can see little globules of mercury inside. The latter look more like normal fluorescent lamps. Of course, as somebody said earlier there is a big differece between corrupting the data in an EPROM and fully erasing it for reprogramming. I would not storew a valuable EPROM under any UV source, there's a good chance that Murphy's law will apply and you'll loose at least one bit. Coversely, if you want to erase an EPROM you can leave it there for weeks and the last bit will never clear... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 13:57:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:57:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: <6F3A3EDB-4A81-4545-89E4-09234E8B3162@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 15, 12 09:01:51 pm Message-ID: > Yes, but an Arduino is seldom part of that solution space for the > low-power domain. Great for tooling around, yes, but you need to be > rather careful in doing low-power design. I feel that the Arduino emobodies most of what's wrong with mdoern hobbyist electronics. It implies that solutions are obtained by plugging together fairly complex modules (whereas really elegant solutions are almost always obtaiend by thinking in terms of simple components and using the properly) and it implies that soldering is a complex skill that you don;t nbeed ot learn (whereas I, and many others found it very easy to learn, and it's essential if you want to go further with electronics). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 14:02:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:02:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: <3201C9D6-90D6-4519-A234-99FE01804145@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 15, 12 10:24:57 pm Message-ID: > Indeed. The 555 is a great solution to a great many things, and It's amazing how many peole think it's useful for astable (oscillator) and monostable (timer) circuits only. I've used it as a bistable and as a schmitt trigger too. The full 555 data sheet is something few people (not here, I hope!) seem to have read, they just use the standard 'cookbook' circuits. If you read and understnad the datasheet you can fidn any other ways to use it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 14:33:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:33:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Apr 16, 12 09:46:13 am Message-ID: > *sigh* Yes, here in the US they let us own a great deal more dangerous > weapons once we've reached the age of majority (I think it may be a > secret population control plan). I don't think they're worried about > people getting a (generally non-lethal) shock from camera flashes. To be fair, I don;t think there's any law over here about making HV power supplies or using parts from camera flash units in a hobbyist workshop. There's better not be, becuase I've broken it many times... However, if you use said parts to make sonething that is intneded to be a weapon, then you are breaking the law alas. In otehr words a handheld case with spikes on the HV output is a no-no. But please don;'t get me started on our _ridiculous_ health-and-safety rules. The one that annys me is that it's perfectly legal for me to make things in my hobbyist workshop (for example a drive roller for an HP9810 card reader). It's perfectly legal for me to tell others how to make it. It's legal for me to allow friends to use my workshop at their own risk. But if I start making and selling siad part as a favour for other enthusiasts I would have ot meet so many H&S requirements in my workshop that it simply isn't worth it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 14:19:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:19:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: <20120416130737.GA35444@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Apr 16, 12 03:07:37 pm Message-ID: > I don't know the function of the Part in question until now, I think > this makes some standby Power for the PSU itself. I've tried to trace wha= > t's > going on there, but it is getting to complicated.. 2 boards, 3 > Transformers, one is connected over a diode to the wirewound resistor and > than to the drain of the FET ...??? > ...and not even the Pinout of the connectors on the PSU. > > I think the FET was blown sometime in the past and the Resistor was > overloaded then. That dosn't prevented the PSU from working..it was only > the burning smell that alarmed me.. I don;t know this supply at all, so I am totally guessing here... Is it possible that this is an inrush limiter circuit to prevent the PSU taking too high a surge current when it's first conencted to the maisn (and htus the capacitors are discharged)? At power-on, the wirewound resistor is in series with charging circuti to the capactors (either in series with the mains supply, or the output of the rectifier), thuis limitign the current. Once the supply has got going, the resistor is shorted out by that semiconductor device (are we sure it's an FET, I ahve seen triacs and SCRs used in such circuits too). If the cirucit fails, the PSU tries to run with the resistor in series. The resisotr gets hot and bothered, and the chopper is passing more current than it should be, due to the lower input voltage to that stage (some of the mains votlage is dropepd across the resistor). I seem to rememebr one of the DEC PSUs (H777?) has a relay used to short out the inrush limiter resistor, and there's a fuse in series with said resistor. If the relay or its drive fails, the fuse will blow, hopefully before too much damage is done. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 16 14:26:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:26:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <4F8C4D90.6020807@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Apr 16, 12 09:49:20 am Message-ID: > >> I'm offering a reward of $500 to anyone who is able to find any of > >> several IBM documents. I'm not including the list in this message > +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ > | Enhanced Graphics Adapter (includes the Enhanced Color | 6280131 | SS34-0007 | > | Display and the Graphics Memory Expansion Card) | | | > +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ OK, I claim my $500 now. I am able to find that document. It's in a O&A binder on the bottom shelf at the top of the stairs here. You said nothing about providing copies of it, after all :-) -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 16 14:41:02 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 16, 12 02:39:18 pm" Message-ID: <201204161941.q3GJf2EK7471238@floodgap.com> > Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places to > keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. This is my problem with fora in general. I prefer E-mail, the original "push medium." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Aibohphobia, the fear of palindromes. -- Brian Braunschweiger -------------- From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Apr 16 14:46:58 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:46:58 +0200 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive References: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org> <20120416202943.Horde.OJtPN6Qd9PdPjGUXu-3BH5Q@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <9B169F2C44CE42C1BFF621DE3D72B121@udvikling> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oliver Lehmann" > Hi Al, > > > Al Kossow wrote: > >> If you look >> in DEI or 3M documenatation, the on-tape format is not the same as >> used on QIC drives. > > Does this mean, that the cartriges used with this drive are > not written in the QIC format? > > The original drive is a DEI CMTD-3400 > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dei/CMTD-3400S2_4tk6400bpi_1979.pdf > > So there is no way at all to copy those tapes with a QIC drive on a PC? To the best of my knowledge, you will need an identical drive plus controllers. How those controller interface to a PC, is an unknown. When looking at the signals, it surely is not SCSI. Alone the fact that the drive has a 40-way connector, will give problems. Even QIC drives are not all SCSI compliant. I remember an Archive drive (5956?, 36 MB?) which had its own controller, and could not be spoken to with e.g. an Adaptec 1510. I think your only chance is to find an identical/compatible working system in a museum. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 350 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 14:59:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:59:24 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8C7A1C.7070707@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 01:47 PM, Ian King wrote: >>>> >> >> How can this fellow continue scamming, year after year? >> >> - John >> > > "There's a sucker born every minute." -- P.T. Barnum Not to mention people who don't know about him. I sure didn't. I'm glad it got discussed here; I'd probably have gotten screwed too. What a shitwaffle. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 15:01:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:01:16 -0400 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8C7A8C.9080302@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 03:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> *sigh* Yes, here in the US they let us own a great deal more dangerous > But please don;'t get me started on our _ridiculous_ health-and-safety > rules. The one that annys me is that it's perfectly legal for me to make > things in my hobbyist workshop (for example a drive roller for an HP9810 > card reader). It's perfectly legal for me to tell others how to make it. > It's legal for me to allow friends to use my workshop at their own risk. > But if I start making and selling siad part as a favour for other > enthusiasts I would have ot meet so many H&S requirements in my workshop > that it simply isn't worth it. I'm certain that, if you stay under the radar and don't make a huge production of it, things will be fine. We have all sorts of crazy laws here too (though not quite as bad as the far older UK) and most of the get ignored, by citizens and judges alike. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 15:07:17 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:07:17 -0500 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> On 04/16/2012 01:58 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 01:26 PM 4/16/2012, David Riley wrote: >> For me, his writing style is far too much like my old >> landlord in West Virginia for me to trust him (not that I >> think he's the same guy, but it throws up immediate >> (possibly spurious) red flags because that guy was a liar >> and a scammer as well). > > I asked about about an item. He said he only accepts PayPal to > his fiancee's account at paskojes at msu.edu. Although that's not necessarily dubious on its own; my wife and I have a joint bank account (same account, different cards) and paypal refuse[1] to link two separate paypal addresses to the same physical account - so I don't have a paypal account these days and would have to use my wife's paypal address for any transactions. [1] well, they did as of a couple of years ago, anyway - I've not tried again to see if they've changed the rules since. They weren't exactly the easiest people to deal with. > I asked for his address and > phone number; he ignored me. He even refused my offer to send cash. That does sound a bit fishy - if I'm selling something, I can't see a good reason for withholding contact information. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 15:06:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:06:10 -0400 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8C7BB2.3000308@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 02:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes, but an Arduino is seldom part of that solution space for the >> low-power domain. Great for tooling around, yes, but you need to be >> rather careful in doing low-power design. > > I feel that the Arduino emobodies most of what's wrong with mdoern > hobbyist electronics. It implies that solutions are obtained by plugging > together fairly complex modules (whereas really elegant solutions are > almost always obtaiend by thinking in terms of simple components and > using the properly) and it implies that soldering is a complex skill that > you don;t nbeed ot learn (whereas I, and many others found it very easy > to learn, and it's essential if you want to go further with electronics). I'm right there with you on that...but I think that, with Arduinos in particular, there is a net gain. FAR FAR more people are into electronics and microcontrollers than would've been without that platform, and SOME of those people "take off the training wheels" and move past the hand-holding of that platform. Some don't...and that's ok, because in the end a larger number of people still have come into the field "for real". Note that I'm not dissing Arduinos here, not at all. I think it's a great platform, both the software and the hardware, and I design and build "real" microcontroller-based systems commercially all the time. But the Arduino was (as far as I'm aware) *intended* to be training wheels, and it does make a great set. One can "graduate" from the Arduino software platform and start programming the microcontroller directly, or one can use the Arduino software platform on a scratch-built board, just as easily. Basically someone can "graduate" into more advanced hardware OR more advanced software whenever they feel comfortable, and do the other later. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 15:09:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:09:25 -0400 Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B690602-F2CC-4EEC-B7CA-55927BBA5C12@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Indeed. The 555 is a great solution to a great many things, and > > It's amazing how many peole think it's useful for astable (oscillator) > and monostable (timer) circuits only. I've used it as a bistable and as a > schmitt trigger too. > > The full 555 data sheet is something few people (not here, I hope!) seem > to have read, they just use the standard 'cookbook' circuits. If you read > and understnad the datasheet you can fidn any other ways to use it. Well, yes. It is a figurative Swiss Army Knife of interesting bits. It's kind of a shame that it's nearly universally referred to as a 555 *timer* when in fact it's really an interesting, connected assembly of comparators, a BJT, a flip-flop and a resistor ladder. I think the "timer" moniker keeps people from really employing their wetware when designing things with it. You could even use it as a simple PLL core, though I'm not sure how much quality you'd get out of it. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 16 15:15:20 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204162015.QAA03551@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> How can this fellow continue scamming, year after year? > To his credit some people have apparently bought from him with no > issues, but I'd still be wondering if any of the stuff he's flogging > now is part of the loot he stole from fellow hobbyists in his > prime... I was wondering. Given his insistence on pickup-in-person, it would be hard to be a total scammer (by which I mean the "take money and give absolutely nothing in return" sort). So either he's selling for real or he is (perhaps very) willing to be talked around on the won't-ship point. (If he's selling for real, the provenance of the things being sold is another question, one I have no basis for more than speculation on.) Of course, for all I know it's also possible he's selling (eg) a G3 case with a fried CPU and a broken disk drive and RAM and claiming it's a totally working machine, which would be another flavour of scam.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 15:19:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:19:47 -0400 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <201204161941.q3GJf2EK7471238@floodgap.com> References: <201204161941.q3GJf2EK7471238@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F8C7EE3.8020808@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 03:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places to >> keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. > > This is my problem with fora in general. I prefer E-mail, the original > "push medium." Yes. Web fora generally suck. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Apr 16 15:39:42 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:39:42 +0200 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <9B169F2C44CE42C1BFF621DE3D72B121@udvikling> References: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org> <20120416202943.Horde.OJtPN6Qd9PdPjGUXu-3BH5Q@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <9B169F2C44CE42C1BFF621DE3D72B121@udvikling> Message-ID: <20120416223942.Horde.j15pWqQd9PdPjIOOQqgRK-Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Nico, Nico de Jong wrote: > Even QIC drives are not all SCSI compliant. I remember an Archive > drive (5956?, 36 MB?) which had its own controller, and could not be > spoken to with e.g. an Adaptec 1510. I think your only chance is to > find an identical/compatible working system in a museum. Yeah I had a LR56637 once which came with an 8Bit-ISA card working in a Xenix System from Acer.... Problem is that the 2 or 3 guys I know who posess such a system did not provided copies since years for different reasons (no time, no equipment, no idea where the tape actually is). So as the time goes, the tapes will be less and less readable - if the drives are still working at all (probably not because of the gum wheel....). Looks like I should just dump the parts I have from the S8000 - sad as it was long time my dream to get a working System 8000 :( Greetings From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 16 15:52:30 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:52:30 -0500 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204162052.q3GKqNql038544@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:07 PM 4/16/2012, Jules Richardson wrote: >Although that's not necessarily dubious on its own; my wife and I have a joint bank account (same account, different cards) and paypal refuse[1] to link two separate paypal addresses to the same physical account - so I don't have a paypal account these days and would have to use my wife's paypal address for any transactions. Plenty of bad feedback for her, too, same modus operandi: http://groups.google.com/group/swap-feedback/search?group=swap-feedback&q=pasko&qt_g=Search+this+group - John From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Apr 16 15:59:31 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:59:31 +0200 Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: References: <20120416130737.GA35444@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120416205931.GC69715@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't know the function of the Part in question until now, I think > > this makes some standby Power for the PSU itself. I've tried to trace wha= > > t's > > going on there, but it is getting to complicated.. 2 boards, 3 > > Transformers, one is connected over a diode to the wirewound resistor and > > than to the drain of the FET ...??? > > ...and not even the Pinout of the connectors on the PSU. > > > > I think the FET was blown sometime in the past and the Resistor was > > overloaded then. That dosn't prevented the PSU from working..it was only > > the burning smell that alarmed me.. > > I don;t know this supply at all, so I am totally guessing here... > > Is it possible that this is an inrush limiter circuit to prevent the PSU > taking too high a surge current when it's first conencted to the maisn > (and htus the capacitors are discharged)? > > At power-on, the wirewound resistor is in series with charging circuti to > the capactors (either in series with the mains supply, or the output of > the rectifier), thuis limitign the current. Once the supply has got > going, the resistor is shorted out by that semiconductor device (are we > sure it's an FET, I ahve seen triacs and SCRs used in such circuits too). > > If the cirucit fails, the PSU tries to run with the resistor in series. > The resisotr gets hot and bothered, and the chopper is passing more > current than it should be, due to the lower input voltage to that stage > (some of the mains votlage is dropepd across the resistor). > > I seem to rememebr one of the DEC PSUs (H777?) has a relay used to short > out the inrush limiter resistor, and there's a fuse in series with said > resistor. If the relay or its drive fails, the fuse will blow, hopefully > before too much damage is done. > > -tony No Tony, for sure this is not such an circuit. I've meausred the pieces of the wirewound resistor, it must had a resistance with approx 4-5 Kohms before. The Place for the FET is marked GDS on the PCB and lat but not least the circuit isn't connected to the Capacitors on the mains side. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 16 16:05:42 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:05:42 -0500 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <201204162015.QAA03551@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204162015.QAA03551@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201204162106.q3GL5vhS038965@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:15 PM 4/16/2012, Mouse wrote: >Of course, for all I know it's also possible he's selling (eg) a G3 >case with a fried CPU and a broken disk drive and RAM and claiming it's >a totally working machine, which would be another flavour of scam.... Which indeed matches the complaints from several buyers that I saw in some simple Google searches this morning. - John From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 16 16:12:49 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:12:49 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale References: <201204162015.QAA03551@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Official Spring cleaning sale >>> How can this fellow continue scamming, year after year? >> To his credit some people have apparently bought from him with no >> issues, but I'd still be wondering if any of the stuff he's flogging >> now is part of the loot he stole from fellow hobbyists in his >> prime... > > I was wondering. Given his insistence on pickup-in-person, it would be > hard to be a total scammer (by which I mean the "take money and give > absolutely nothing in return" sort). So either he's selling for real > or he is (perhaps very) willing to be talked around on the won't-ship > point. (If he's selling for real, the provenance of the things being > sold is another question, one I have no basis for more than speculation > on.) > > Of course, for all I know it's also possible he's selling (eg) a G3 > case with a fried CPU and a broken disk drive and RAM and claiming it's > a totally working machine, which would be another flavour of scam.... > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B The guy seems like a compulsive liar and will not pass up a chance to screw somebody if he can get away with it (and the community has made sure that he does get away with it for a decade or more). I would bet he gets quite a bit of his spending money selling old equipment. You could ask him a dozen times where he gets that equipment and you will hear a different answer every time. I would guess that he snagged a bunch of stuff from that warehouse find he bragged about last year all over the internet (not his, helping a friend sell it etc). I would bet he took the best of the lot without his "friend" knowing and is selling/sold it off and kept the money (just my guess) and wants the broken stuff that's left gone (come and get it, sorry its in a shed with no power so you can't test it, trust me it all works sucker). I do wonder why he joined here, since most people here may be trusting but they have been around the hobby for ages and have heard of him. The sad thing is there are tons of people who don't care how he got his stuff as long as they think they are getting a deal. Just the fact that he can rejoin 68kmla and Applefritter AFTER he screwed the members over and still get sales is rather sad. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 16:14:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:14:01 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 04:07 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I asked for his address and >> phone number; he ignored me. He even refused my offer to send cash. > > That does sound a bit fishy - if I'm selling something, I can't see a > good reason for withholding contact information. I can. Phone calls are disruptive and a pain. Some people (like me!) despise phone calls. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 16 16:15:56 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:15:56 -0700 Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: <6B690602-F2CC-4EEC-B7CA-55927BBA5C12@gmail.com> References: <6B690602-F2CC-4EEC-B7CA-55927BBA5C12@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 16, at 1:09 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 16, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Indeed. The 555 is a great solution to a great many things, and >> >> It's amazing how many peole think it's useful for astable >> (oscillator) >> and monostable (timer) circuits only. I've used it as a bistable >> and as a >> schmitt trigger too. >> >> The full 555 data sheet is something few people (not here, I >> hope!) seem >> to have read, they just use the standard 'cookbook' circuits. If >> you read >> and understnad the datasheet you can fidn any other ways to use it. > > Well, yes. It is a figurative Swiss Army Knife of interesting bits. > It's kind of a shame that it's nearly universally referred to as a > 555 *timer* when in fact it's really an interesting, connected > assembly of comparators, a BJT, a flip-flop and a resistor ladder. > I think the "timer" moniker keeps people from really employing their > wetware when designing things with it. Back when it was new there was an incredible variety of circuits using it, presented in datasheets, books, mags, and practice. It was a bit of a popular craze to find a new use for the 555. > You could even use it as a simple PLL core, though I'm not sure how > much quality you'd get out of it. The SWTPC CT-64 video terminal uses one in a PLL circuit to sync the sync-gen to the 60Hz mains. It does involve 2 external FETs and assorted RC though. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 16:32:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:32:42 -0700 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <20120416202943.Horde.OJtPN6Qd9PdPjGUXu-3BH5Q@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org>, <20120416202943.Horde.OJtPN6Qd9PdPjGUXu-3BH5Q@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4F8C2D8A.4334.12A00C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2012 at 20:29, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > The original drive is a DEI CMTD-3400 > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dei/CMTD-3400S2_4tk6400bpi_1979.pdf > > So there is no way at all to copy those tapes with a QIC drive on a > PC? Probably not--at least not using parts for "backup". I've got a similar drive in my collection by 3M. Basic dumb drive--has the drivers for the motion, and read/write amplifiers, but otherwise no intelligence whatsoever. You could possibly cobble up an interface circuit using an MCU (did someone mention Arduino?), but I've not tried that. I have no idea of the details of recording on my drive. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 16 16:33:37 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:33:37 -0700 Subject: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor In-Reply-To: <201204142104.RAA16951@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204142104.RAA16951@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 14, at 2:04 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> What I was getting at is that for problems that can be solved in >>> both domains, doing so in the digital domain (generally via >>> software) allows the designer to focus on the problem and far less >>> so on the physical implementation. >> I think this depends -- a lot -- on how the designer thinks. >> Certain;y I find hat for myself going over to the digirtal domain for >> what are essentially analopgue problems makes them harder to >> understnad. > > Some of the analog designers of the past were amazingly clever. Just > today I visited someone who has a Hammond organ with a Leslie. > Apparently we are only now learning how to digitially produce the kind > of effects the Leslie generates with little more than a motor and a > speaker. The Leslie is a neat effect, but trying to digitally mimic (model in real time) a specific effect is a very different problem than hacking around in the analog domain and coming up some effect originally. > And look at the way the early DTMF telephone designers got two tones > out of a single transistor. Not that doing that today would be all > that valuable, but the degree of analog insight necessary to create > that circuit is pretty impressive. Well, to me, at least. It is very cute and impressive in its minimalism (I was surprised by the simplicity when I first received such a phone and reverse- engineered it), but it's just a Hartley oscillator with dual resonant circuits, integrated into the line circuit. I wouldn't say it was conceptually so far out. Simple transistor radios starting in the 50's used a single transistor to form the superhet mixer/oscillator functions and multiple-actions-from-a-single-active-device ideas go back to the reflex radios of the 20s. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 16 16:33:39 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:33:39 -0600 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8C7BB2.3000308@neurotica.com> References: <4F8C7BB2.3000308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8C9033.9020905@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/16/2012 2:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > One can "graduate" from the Arduino software platform and start > programming the microcontroller directly, or one can use the Arduino > software platform on a scratch-built board, just as easily. Basically > someone can "graduate" into more advanced hardware OR more advanced > software whenever they feel comfortable, and do the other later. That may be true, but for the most part what little I have seen of modern controller is that you tend to be I/O limited as I expect you will find a lot of 8 pin devices, as compared to a full size older single chip computer. Ben. > -Dave > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 16 16:43:19 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:43:19 +1200 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <4F8C7EE3.8020808@neurotica.com> References: <201204161941.q3GJf2EK7471238@floodgap.com> <4F8C7EE3.8020808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 17/04/2012 8:19 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/16/2012 03:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places to > >> keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. > > > > This is my problem with fora in general. I prefer E-mail, the original > > "push medium." > > Yes. Web fora generally suck. A sweeping generalisation there Dave. A have a couple i regularly visit and i find them both useful and often engaging. Depends on the moderators, people and general "Culture". Many forums will send out an email to let you know of a posting in a forum you are subscribed to. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 16:59:14 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:59:14 -0500 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8C9632.3080000@gmail.com> On 04/16/2012 04:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/16/2012 04:07 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> I asked for his address and >>> phone number; he ignored me. He even refused my offer to send cash. >> >> That does sound a bit fishy - if I'm selling something, I can't see a >> good reason for withholding contact information. > > I can. Phone calls are disruptive and a pain. Some people (like me!) > despise phone calls. Oh, I do too. Worst gadget ever invented IMHO, the telephone; it lacks the convenience of email and the visual cues that meeting someone face-to-face provides. I just don't mind giving my number out on the offchance there might be a reason that it ends up being the only way that someone can contact me - although chances are very high that they'll just get my voicemail and will have to wait for me to call them back :-) (my cell phone's in the bottom of a closet in my office, where it has been for more than four years; as you can probably guess, I don't miss it.) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 16 17:17:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120416145745.B98735@shell.lmi.net> > > > I asked for his address and > > > phone number; he ignored me. He even refused my offer to send cash. > > That does sound a bit fishy - if I'm selling something, I can't see a > > good reason for withholding contact information. On Mon, 16 Apr 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > I can. Phone calls are disruptive and a pain. Some people (like me!) > despise phone calls. Giving out your phone number to people who are not already qualified as serious buyers gets you middle of the night phone calls from people who "goofed on the time zone", "just got back from the evening", or assume that EVERYBODY is up by 06:00 Sunday. Giving out your address to people who are not already qualified as serious buyers gets you people on your doorstep, knocking hours and DAYS ahedad of time, even if you had EXPLICITLY stated that nothing would be available until Saturday at 13:00 It is amazing how many people will abuse that kind of information! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 17:30:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 18:30:39 -0400 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: <201204161941.q3GJf2EK7471238@floodgap.com> <4F8C7EE3.8020808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8C9D8F.4050505@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 05:43 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > On 17/04/2012 8:19 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> >> On 04/16/2012 03:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places to >>>> keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. >>> >>> This is my problem with fora in general. I prefer E-mail, the original >>> "push medium." >> >> Yes. Web fora generally suck. > > A sweeping generalisation there Dave. A have a couple i regularly visit > and i find them both useful and often engaging. Depends on the moderators, > people and general "Culture". I'm not objecting to the content, I'm objecting to the need to "poll" them for new information. I'm a very busy guy, and I will quickly forget about doing that. If they work for you, more power to ya. :-) > Many forums will send out an email to let > you know of a posting in a forum you are subscribed to. ...which is what makes them even approach "usable" for me. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 17:48:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:48:13 -0700 Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: References: <4F8AE84F.7926.17183B4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 15, 12 03:25:03 pm, Message-ID: <4F8C3F3D.29779.16F4184@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2012 at 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > I wonder if enough UV would get through, say, an ordinary 75 watt > > mercury-vapor luminaire. > > I doubt it. The 'black light' tubes used in discos, etc, and the > PCB-exposure tubes do not generate enough far UV to erase EPROMs in a > sensible time. Well, a 75W mercury-vapor luminaire is awfully bright. Perhaps if you removed the outer envelope. I suspect the real answer is "run whatever it is that you're interested in using for a minute or so. If you can smell ozone, it'll probably work." --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Mon Apr 16 17:55:03 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:55:03 -0500 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <4F8C9D8F.4050505@neurotica.com> References: <201204161941.q3GJf2EK7471238@floodgap.com> <4F8C7EE3.8020808@neurotica.com> <4F8C9D8F.4050505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8CA347.4090307@vaxen.net> On 4/16/12 5:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/16/2012 05:43 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> On 17/04/2012 8:19 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >>> >>> On 04/16/2012 03:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>>> Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places to >>>>> keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. >>>> >>>> This is my problem with fora in general. I prefer E-mail, the original >>>> "push medium." >>> >>> Yes. Web fora generally suck. >> >> A sweeping generalisation there Dave. A have a couple i regularly visit >> and i find them both useful and often engaging. Depends on the moderators, >> people and general "Culture". > > I'm not objecting to the content, I'm objecting to the need to "poll" > them for new information. I'm a very busy guy, and I will quickly > forget about doing that. > > If they work for you, more power to ya. :-) > >> Many forums will send out an email to let >> you know of a posting in a forum you are subscribed to. > > ...which is what makes them even approach "usable" for me. :) My 2 favorite fora allow you to subscribe to interesting threads, and auto-subscribe you to a thread in which you've posted. This lets me see when something's posted that I probalby want to read, without telling me every time a post is made to the forum in general. They also allow you to *revoke* those thread subscriptions, which is at least as useful. :D Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 16 17:55:14 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:55:14 -0500 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <20120416145745.B98735@shell.lmi.net> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> <20120416145745.B98735@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201204162255.q3GMtlSU041757@billy.ezwind.net> At 05:17 PM 4/16/2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >Giving out your phone number to people who are not already qualified as >serious buyers gets you middle of the night phone calls from people who >"goofed on the time zone", "just got back from the evening", or assume >that EVERYBODY is up by 06:00 Sunday. I know you're "grumpy", but that's pretty grumpy. I fished for his digits because I wanted to help people avoid him. I had no intention of buying a Tandy laptop. This guy is already targeting oddball classic computer collectors, it's not like he's including his address and phone number in a Craigslist ad. People selling stuff are motivated to do so. They are willing to put up with a few phone calls. The average person has a cell phone for this sort of work. There's nothing forcing them to answer the phone or even respond to a voice mail, unless of course they're motivated to sell, which is obviously the case here. Dinging around with an exchange of a dozen emails to answer my questions is a lot of work, too. You want effortless sales? Your grumpiness reminds me of the old adage "Business would be a lot of fun if it weren't for all those pesky customers." Selling a laundry list of old computer crap for $40 a pop isn't the most sensible way to make money. It's going to take some effort. If he wanted to save effort, he's hand it to the scrapper. The good guys selling old computer crap? They're probably motivated by a personal sense of satisfaction that their stuff will find a new home with someone who will appreciate it. For this guy, he's probably picking up the junk for free and he regards scamming as a way to increase his profit margin. Think he's grumpy, too? If I were a scammer, I bet being grumpy would be my second approach if someone didn't fall for my first excuse as to why the goods weren't as promised. Unpleasantness can make people stop bothering you. "Once you get their money, never give it back." - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 18:40:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:40:23 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <201204162255.q3GMtlSU041757@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> <20120416145745.B98735@shell.lmi.net> <201204162255.q3GMtlSU041757@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F8CADE7.5040804@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 06:55 PM, John Foust wrote: > People selling stuff are motivated to do so. They are willing to put up > with a few phone calls. That's a big, inaccurate generalization. I sell stuff all the time, always have and probably always will, and I am most certainly NOT willing to put up with phone calls. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 16 18:42:15 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <4F8CA347.4090307@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Apr 16, 12 05:55:03 pm" Message-ID: <201204162342.q3GNgFSw14090302@floodgap.com> > My 2 favorite fora allow you to subscribe to interesting threads, and > auto-subscribe you to a thread in which you've posted. This lets me see > when something's posted that I probalby want to read, without telling me > every time a post is made to the forum in general. Although some of them only do this for the *first* new thing posted in that thread, which is considerably less helpful. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never refuse a breath mint. -- Daniel Handler ------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 16 18:47:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:47:50 -0400 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8C9033.9020905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4F8C7BB2.3000308@neurotica.com> <4F8C9033.9020905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F8CAFA6.7080802@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 05:33 PM, ben wrote: >> One can "graduate" from the Arduino software platform and start >> programming the microcontroller directly, or one can use the Arduino >> software platform on a scratch-built board, just as easily. Basically >> someone can "graduate" into more advanced hardware OR more advanced >> software whenever they feel comfortable, and do the other later. > > That may be true, but for the most part what little I have seen of modern > controller is that you tend to be I/O limited as I expect you will find > a lot > of 8 pin devices, as compared to a full size older single chip computer. Huh? WTF are you talking about? Low-pin-count devices are very much in the minority in the microcontroller world...but how is that even relevant? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 16 19:01:02 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <201204162255.q3GMtlSU041757@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> <20120416145745.B98735@shell.lmi.net> <201204162255.q3GMtlSU041757@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20120416164025.B98735@shell.lmi.net> > >Giving out your phone number to people who are not already qualified as > >serious buyers gets you middle of the night phone calls from people who > >"goofed on the time zone", "just got back from the evening", or assume > >that EVERYBODY is up by 06:00 Sunday. On Mon, 16 Apr 2012, John Foust wrote: > I know you're "grumpy", but that's pretty grumpy. YOU WOULD BE, TOO, if you posted your hours and conditions, and people called you at inappropriate times. > I fished for his digits because I wanted to help people avoid him. > I had no intention of buying a Tandy laptop. OK AND, you were, at that point a "qualified serious buyer". Yes, you DO give out contact information to people who are interested. > This guy is already targeting oddball classic computer collectors, > it's not like he's including his address and phone number in > a Craigslist ad. To SOME extent, then anybody here would be a "qualified" buyer. > People selling stuff are motivated to do so. They are willing to put up > with a few phone calls. The average person has a cell phone for this > sort of work. There's nothing forcing them to answer the phone or > even respond to a voice mail, unless of course they're motivated > to sell, which is obviously the case here. Yes, it IS the case HERE. But, you are telling me that if I want to sell things, that I have an obligation to get ANOTHER phone, just so I don't have to answer it at inappropriate times? > Dinging around with an exchange of a dozen emails to answer my questions > is a lot of work, too. By which time, it WAS appropriate to give you better contact information. I posted my van foir sale on an enthusiast forum. I got a dozen VERY enthusiastic emails, all of which I followed up on. I did NOT follow up on "ADDRESS?" nor on the ones SIX MONTHS LATER, saying "Still got it?" but I responded to "What's your phone#? I want to talk about the car." with "What would you like to know about it? Are there any details that you need? I'll be showing it on Saturday at 13:00" > You want effortless sales? Your grumpiness reminds me of the old adage > "Business would be a lot of fun if it weren't for all those pesky customers." No, grumpiness comes from ASSHOLE messages like YOUR ad hominem current one. > Selling a laundry list of old computer crap for $40 a pop isn't the > most sensible way to make money. It's going to take some effort. > If he wanted to save effort, he's hand it to the scrapper. A little hard to be sure of HIS exact motivations. > The good guys selling old computer crap? They're probably motivated > by a personal sense of satisfaction that their stuff will find a > new home with someone who will appreciate it. Agreed > Think he's grumpy, too? NO. He's an asshole, like you are currently being. > If I were a scammer, I bet being grumpy would > be my second approach if someone didn't fall for my first excuse as > to why the goods weren't as promised. Unpleasantness can make > people stop bothering you. "Once you get their money, never give it back." NO. A Scammer's approach is to be their "best buddy"! Yes, you need to sometimes put up with some hassles when selling things. That's why I usually give the stuff away, instead. Giving out too much contact information to total strangers, before even discussing what they want is an open invitation to ridiculous levels of abuse. Do you know WHY auto mechanics don't give out their home phone numbers? Yes, some of it is to be able to cut off access to disgruntled ex-customers. But it is ALSO to cut off access to "Hi! Did I wake you? You don't know me, but I heard that you are really good. My car is broken down on the freeway, and it'll cost $25 to get it towed to the garage! That's too much! So, could you come out here and fix it?" REALLY. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 16 19:12:20 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:12:20 -0700 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8C7A1C.7070707@neurotica.com> References: <4F8C7A1C.7070707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 3:59 PM -0400 4/16/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > Not to mention people who don't know about him. I sure didn't. I'm >glad it got discussed here; I'd probably have gotten screwed too. > > What a shitwaffle. > > -Dave This thread makes me glad I need several 8x10 film holders more than I need a Commodore SX64! I saw his post yesterday and for the first time in a long time found myself seriously tempted. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 16 19:20:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:20:49 -0700 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8CAFA6.7080802@neurotica.com> References: , <4F8C9033.9020905@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4F8CAFA6.7080802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8C54F1.24998.1C40865@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2012 at 19:47, someone wrote: > One can "graduate" from the Arduino software platform and start > programming the microcontroller directly, or one can use the > Arduino software platform on a scratch-built board, just as easily. > Basically someone can "graduate" into more advanced hardware OR > more advanced software whenever they feel comfortable, and do the > other later. The Arduino is useful to many because it's assembled (correctly), comes with a development suite and lots of sample projects. While this may not be important to everyone, it's important to many. One is not constrained to using the "official" Arduino tools. Want to program the AVR in assembly or FORTH? No problem. My particular use was doing some evaluation on a 32-bit Arduino "clone"--the Digilent Uno32. For about $28, I got a little board with a smallish PIC32, (PIC32MX320F128H) some LEDs headers and a FTDI USB-to-serial chip (the USB capabilities of the PIC32 are left uncommitted). I downloaded the Uno32 devkit to make sure that my kit worked and then used the official MPLAB suite from Microchip and a PicKit3 to do my device programming. It worked just fine and got me up to speed on the chip without bothering about the detals of the Arduino emulation. Worth every cent, particularly when compared to Micrchip PIC32 dev boards. After I felt comfortable, I graduated to my own designs using bigger PIC32s. --Chuck From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 19:52:17 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 03:52:17 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: <4F8C4D90.6020807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2012/4/16 Tony Duell : >> >> I'm offering a reward of $500 to anyone who is able to find any of >> >> several IBM documents. I'm not including the list in this message > >> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ >> | Enhanced Graphics Adapter (includes the Enhanced Color ? ? ? ? ? ?| 6280131 ?| SS34-0007 ? ?| >> | Display and the Graphics Memory Expansion Card) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ?| ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| >> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ > > OK, I claim my $500 now. > > I am able to find that document. It's in a O&A binder on the bottom shelf > at the top of the stairs here. > > You said nothing about providing copies of it, after all :-) > > -tony Damn, here it is: $500 :) But seriously, I'm interested in it if you do indeed have that. Cheers, Bogdan From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Apr 16 20:02:42 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 01:02:42 +0000 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Querying the Group Mind(TM): We have been asked to find out if any Systems Engineering Laboratories systems are still in existence. That's kind of vague, but that's the question as it was posed to us, and I said I'd ask in the usual fora. We're only looking for information on whether any of these systems are known still to be in existence, whether in use or in storage. I vaguely remember Gould SEL32 "superminis" in the late 70s/early 80s as competitors to the DEC VAX and the IBM 43xx lines, but only through ads in Computerworld and Datamation. Information on those would be appreciated. We would also like to know about earlier systems, including the 24-bit processors from the mid-60s. Thanks for any help you can provide. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 16 20:22:27 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 18:22:27 -0700 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F8CC5D3.3020403@bitsavers.org> On 4/16/12 6:02 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Querying the Group Mind(TM): > > We have been asked to find out if any Systems Engineering Laboratories > systems are still in existence. John Keys (Houston "Computer Museum") should have an SEL 810A From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 21:21:20 2012 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:21:20 -0400 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F8CD3A0.90207@gmail.com> On 04/16/2012 09:02 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Querying the Group Mind(TM): > > We have been asked to find out if any Systems Engineering Laboratories > systems are still in existence. That's kind of vague, but that's the > question as it was posed to us, and I said I'd ask in the usual fora. > We're only looking for information on whether any of these systems are > known still to be in existence, whether in use or in storage. > > I vaguely remember Gould SEL32 "superminis" in the late 70s/early 80s as > competitors to the DEC VAX and the IBM 43xx lines, but only through ads > in Computerworld and Datamation. Information on those would be appreciated. > We would also like to know about earlier systems, including the 24-bit > processors from the mid-60s. > > Thanks for any help you can provide. Not only in existence but in operation too -see link - This site is located at Vandenberg in the USAF Western Space and Missile Center. It processes all the telemetry from any of the missile launches for any of the vehicles, from the peacekeeper to the old shuttle. There's almost 2 dozen 32/75's and 2x CDC 840's in that data center - some of it can be seen in the pics. I maintain this small webpage about SEL/Gould for a few years now and it's still a work in progress. There's other little tidbits on there, plus a couple of stories. This was my first job in engineering and so I still keep in contact with many of my colleagues that were there since it's inception. And slowly but surely, I scan in many of the photos and documents they've given me to put online. I missed several opportunities then to bring a system home. BTW, the SEL 32/75 outperformed the VAX11/780 :) http://www.rogtronics.net/computers_mini_gallery_tips.html Just as Al Kossow mentioned, and the last time I corresponded with John Keys, they do have an SEL 810A at their museum. =Dan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 21:39:01 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:39:01 -0400 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? In-Reply-To: <4F8CD3A0.90207@gmail.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F8CD3A0.90207@gmail.com> Message-ID: > There's almost 2 dozen 32/75's and 2x > CDC 840's in that data center - Those are now Cyber 960s. -- Will From jon at jonworld.com Mon Apr 16 21:40:12 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:40:12 -0500 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? In-Reply-To: <4F8CD3A0.90207@gmail.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F8CD3A0.90207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <82442FF8-A544-4E5A-94E8-8358710016B8@jonworld.com> On Apr 16, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > Not only in existence but in operation too -see link - This site is located at Vandenberg in the USAF Western Space and Missile Center. It processes all the telemetry from any of the missile launches for any of the vehicles, from the peacekeeper to the old shuttle. There's almost 2 dozen 32/75's and 2x CDC 840's in that data center - some of it can be seen in the pics. Wait, still in use today? Wow. And I was floored when I saw a fully loaded VAX 11/780 running in 2002. With a punch card reader. From hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE Mon Apr 16 14:53:03 2012 From: hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:53:03 +0200 Subject: SCSI-1 to IDE converter board In-Reply-To: <000f01cd1bdd$81996ad0$84cc4070$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: At 10:30 Uhr -0400 16.4.2012, Andrew Lynch wrote: >I've designed a PCB that converts SCSI-1 to IDE and SD. Cool project, although I guess that designing the hardware isn't half of it, by far... I especially like the fact that this is not your regular oodles-of-pins SMT chip assembly. I could even bring an Ancot scsi analyzer to the table; only thing missing is time... 8-/ hauke -- "It's never straight up and down" (DEVO) From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Apr 16 20:33:33 2012 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:33:33 -0400 Subject: History of the Supercomputer & Jack Tramiel passed away Message-ID: >From the earliest history of the computer the innovators and engineers talked about licensing, patents and who did what & when. What has changed? Should we be surprised that Jack Tramiel ?acted? the way he did and not necessarily in a bad way; that the supercomputer?s origins is in dispute! The historical origins, in some fashion, can be found in ?Turing Cathedral: The origins of the digital universe? by George Dyson. It tells us why we had the vintage computer era - this can be found in my book, ?A Historical Research Guide to the Microcomputer.? (Shameful plug here!) - and what has evolved since. Murray-- From barythrin at yahoo.com Tue Apr 17 01:19:23 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 23:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1334643563.97957.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Any particular reason you're looking for these specific revisions/titles? Information? Completeness of collection? Seems like anyone who does have them should scan them for public use. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 04:41:33 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:41:33 +0200 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions Message-ID: I find the dislike of the Arduino by some people in this forum a bit silly, yet funny in a history-repeating way. The Arduino, in my opinion, occupies roughly the same space that the Vic-20 (or ZX-81) did back in its day. It's a great intro to the field. Sure, the cool kids are building their own computers using S-100 cards, the rich kids are buying far more capable Apples and Tandys; the pros use minis. And while most Vic-20 users never get beyond playing copied versions of Lunar Lander, some of them get sufficiently interested to go on to better things and delve deeper, hitting the limitations and working around them. Remember - neither the VIC-20 or ZX-81 came with any info on how to program them in anything other than the (very limited) BASIC. More importantly, the Arduino disrupted the microcontroller dev board market in such a way that to get any mindshare these days you need to have a sub-$100 board to get hobbyists interested, AND have a (reasonable, and open or at least free) click-and-compile IDE with it. Joe. PS. I apologize for mixing technologies of different time frames in the example above. That whole period was a bit of a blur to me. Pedants, be pedantic, please :-) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From jthecman at netscape.net Tue Apr 17 06:44:00 2012 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 07:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <8CEEAA683BC859A-DEC-AB24@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com> We have a complete working SEL810A system plus all the docs' and had to pass on another complete system. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Alderson To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Sent: Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:16 am Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? Querying the Group Mind(TM): We have been asked to find out if any Systems Engineering Laboratories systems are still in existence. That's kind of vague, but that's the question as it was posed to us, and I said I'd ask in the usual fora. We're only looking for information on whether any of these systems are known still to be in existence, whether in use or in storage. I vaguely remember Gould SEL32 "superminis" in the late 70s/early 80s as competitors to the DEC VAX and the IBM 43xx lines, but only through ads in Computerworld and Datamation. Information on those would be appreciated. We would also like to know about earlier systems, including the 24-bit processors from the mid-60s. Thanks for any help you can provide. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 07:21:00 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 08:21:00 -0400 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? In-Reply-To: <8CEEAA683BC859A-DEC-AB24@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <8CEEAA683BC859A-DEC-AB24@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: > We have a complete working SEL810A system plus all the docs' and had to pass > on another complete system. Have the 810A docs all been "Al'd"? -- Will From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 07:48:45 2012 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 08:48:45 -0400 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F8CD3A0.90207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:39 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > There's almost 2 dozen 32/75's and 2x > > CDC 840's in that data center - > > Those are now Cyber 960s > I just heard from my ol' friend who had contracted the support work there in the past. The lastest news is that center is expected to be operational until 2015. His firm lost out on the last contract last Sept, they do it all in-house now - with many difficulties I might add. Nobody there knows the equipment better as the former employees :) =Dan From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 07:52:15 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 15:52:15 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <1334643563.97957.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1334643563.97957.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2012/4/17 Sam Onella : > Any particular reason you're looking for these specific revisions/titles? ?Information? ?Completeness of collection? ?Seems like anyone who does have them should scan them for public use. Yes, there is a reason that I picked those revisions: As far as I know, those are the latest revisions of those documents. If I am wrong and you can find a more recent revision/update, I will probably accept that. Btw, anyone have any clue which document contained the technical documentation for the MCGA? Cheers, Bogdan From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 08:40:00 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 16:40:00 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: <1334643563.97957.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As for the titles, I've updated the table a little, giving the exact names from IBM together with the part number for one of the documents that I didn't include before. (Best viewed with a fixed-width font.) +------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | DOCUMENT TITLE | PART NO. | FORM NO. | +------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Update for the IBM Personal System/2 Hardware Technical | 10G6466 | S10G-6466 | | Reference---Architectures | | | +------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Personal System/2 Mouse Technical Reference | | S68X-2229-00 | +------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Personal System/2 Display Adapter 8514/A Adapter Interface | 68X2279 | S68X-2279 | | Application Developer's Guide | | | +------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Personal System/2 Display Adapter 8514/A | 68X2248 | S68X-2248 | +------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ | Enhanced Graphics Adapter (includes the Enhanced Color | 6280131 | SS34-0007 | | Display and the Graphics Memory Expansion Card) | | | +------------------------------------------------------------+----------+--------------+ Cheers, Bogdan From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Apr 17 08:46:02 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:46:02 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: <4F8C7A1C.7070707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50291C84-4800-4901-8FDF-959C34DAF87A@colourfull.com> I'm kind of glad someone said something about this. I contacted him and said I would come pick up the stuff, not wanting it to go to recycling. He was excited thinking I was buying his stuff. I told him that I just wanted to get the TRS-80 stuff he was going to trash. Since he's about an 1 hour plus from my place, I thought it wouldn't be a big deal. After that, since I wasn't purchasing anything, I never heard from him again. Thanks for the heads up. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Apr 17 08:49:00 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:49:00 -0400 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2012, at 5:41 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I find the dislike of the Arduino by some people in this forum a bit > silly, yet funny in a history-repeating way. The Arduino, in my > opinion, occupies roughly the same space that the Vic-20 (or ZX-81) > did back in its day. It's a great intro to the field. > > Joe. > > I Love this! Good analogy Joe. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Apr 17 09:54:28 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 10:54:28 -0400 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8D8424.6050001@verizon.net> Joachim, On 4/17/2012 5:41 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I find the dislike of the Arduino by some people in this forum a bit > silly, yet funny in a history-repeating way. Silly isn't a strong enough word in my opinion. I'm not exactly sure where the animosity comes from, because I think that the arduino has done a great service to the community. At least in terms of driving down prices on all boards of this nature. And it's not just microcontrollers ---- FPGA boards, eval boards, accessories that are easily driven from a microcontroller (like gps boards, etc). Increased availability of parts. There's more attention on the overall field, more people making projects, more support and a larger advertising base for magazines. I really think it goes on and on. While they aren't likely to admit this, a lot of the old fogies here specifically don't like the accessibility and ease of use. Projects that used to require a specific set of hard-won and war-won battle skills/medals to build and create now no longer do. So the barriers to entry to have been removed, and they're pissed. The elite club they worked hard to join with a large learning curve is now handing out free memberships. Boo hoo. It's similar to the no-code ham FCC license change(no longer requiring a morse code test to obtain a license to transmit) years ago. The old hams, while simultaneously complaining that their dying hobby was growing smaller and smaller, said that this was the end of the world and that the local repeaters would become the CB world of the 80's. Guess what happened? Practically nothing, besides the fact that the number of applications for a HAM license shot through the roof, and the hobby was expanded and sustained through a surge of new hams. The increased number of hams mean more ham equipment sales, more people to support shareware that is out there, and so on. The bottom line re:arduino is that anything that expands the community by enabling people to build things that they want to build is a win-win for me. Who cares if they don't want to solder? Who cares if they don't want to understand digital logic? Who cares if they aren't seeking true enlightenment? These people aren't even necessarily hobbyists -- they are people who want to solve a problem. Why care about the way they go about solving it? Damn Whippersnappers. Keith P.S. One other thing, get your damn car going 10 miles under the speed limit the hell out of the fast lane. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 10:00:52 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:00:52 -0400 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> On Apr 17, 2012, at 5:41 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I find the dislike of the Arduino by some people in this forum a bit > silly, yet funny in a history-repeating way. The Arduino, in my > opinion, occupies roughly the same space that the Vic-20 (or ZX-81) > did back in its day. It's a great intro to the field. To be clear, I don't dislike the Arduino, not at all. It's great at what it does, just like a PET. I just don't like when people get the idea to shoehorn it into something it's totally inappropriate for, which is something I *do* see a lot (much like Mouse's example where a simple 555 circuit would have made much more sense). I was just as mad when management at one of our clients forced us to use Linux on a little embedded board where the microcontroller was only going to be used for housekeeping; with a tiny little event loop for an OS, we could have done the job with a 50 MHz ARM, but instead we ended up with an 800 MHz PowerPC which caused us no end of trouble (not least because it was a buggy chip, which is maybe a separate issue). I like Linux, and I like PowerPCs, but they didn't belong there. > More importantly, the Arduino disrupted the microcontroller dev board > market in such a way that to get any mindshare these days you need to > have a sub-$100 board to get hobbyists interested, AND have a > (reasonable, and open or at least free) click-and-compile IDE with it. Yes, that's what's great about it. And when you're inducting newbies into anything, you're bound to get some questionable attempts like what I described; that's just called "learning". :-) I guess my irritation comes when people do something like that when they should damn well know better, which does occasionally happen ("Hey, I need some blinking LEDs; maybe we could use an Arduino!"). - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 17 10:09:39 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:09:39 -0600 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8D8424.6050001@verizon.net> References: <4F8D8424.6050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F8D87B3.8010003@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/17/2012 8:54 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > Joachim, > > On 4/17/2012 5:41 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> I find the dislike of the Arduino by some people in this forum a bit >> silly, yet funny in a history-repeating way. > > Silly isn't a strong enough word in my opinion. > > I'm not exactly sure where the animosity comes from, because I think > that the arduino has done a great service to the community. At least in > terms of driving down prices on all boards of this nature. And it's not > just microcontrollers ---- FPGA boards, eval boards, accessories that > are easily driven from a microcontroller (like gps boards, etc). > Increased availability of parts. > > There's more attention on the overall field, more people making > projects, more support and a larger advertising base for magazines. I > really think it goes on and on. > > While they aren't likely to admit this, a lot of the old fogies here > specifically don't like the accessibility and ease of use. Projects that > used to require a specific set of hard-won and war-won battle > skills/medals to build and create now no longer do. So the barriers to > entry to have been removed, and they're pissed. The elite club they > worked hard to join with a large learning curve is now handing out free > memberships. Boo hoo. > > It's similar to the no-code ham FCC license change(no longer requiring a > morse code test to obtain a license to transmit) years ago. The old > hams, while simultaneously complaining that their dying hobby was > growing smaller and smaller, said that this was the end of the world and > that the local repeaters would become the CB world of the 80's. > > Guess what happened? Practically nothing, besides the fact that the > number of applications for a HAM license shot through the roof, and the > hobby was expanded and sustained through a surge of new hams. The > increased number of hams mean more ham equipment sales, more people to > support shareware that is out there, and so on. > > The bottom line re:arduino is that anything that expands the community > by enabling people to build things that they want to build is a win-win > for me. Who cares if they don't want to solder? Who cares if they don't > want to understand digital logic? Who cares if they aren't seeking true > enlightenment? These people aren't even necessarily hobbyists -- they > are people who want to solve a problem. Why care about the way they go > about solving it? > > Damn Whippersnappers. > > Keith > > P.S. One other thing, get your damn car going 10 miles under the speed > limit the hell out of the fast lane. > > I don't drive. I just wonder if the new mini-boards really teach anything. What is left to control? Toilets even are done. I just find it difficult to see how the uControlers can get past the Toy/Demo stage. Ben. PS. I think the idea of big racks, and blinking lights has a little to with my mind set. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 17 10:30:00 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8D8424.6050001@verizon.net> References: <4F8D8424.6050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201204171530.LAA20618@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm not exactly sure where the animosity comes from, because I think > that the arduino has done a great service to the community. At least > in terms of driving down prices on all boards of this nature. That's not entirely good; look at the peecee hardware quality race to the bottom when clones started forcing cost-cutting everywhere. To be sure, there was a lot of headroom to start with (both here and with peecees). But once that headroom is gone, all that's left is to cut quality. > While they aren't likely to admit this, a lot of the old fogies here > specifically don't like the accessibility and ease of use. Projects > that used to require a specific set of hard-won and war-won battle > skills/medals to build and create now no longer do. So the barriers > to entry to have been removed, and they're pissed. The elite club > they worked hard to join with a large learning curve is now handing > out free memberships. Boo hoo. There's probably some of that. But this, too, is not unmixed; the flip side of removing barriers to entry is...removing barriers to entry. You not only are making it easier for newbies to join the hobby, you are also making it easier for...lamers? People who have no real interest in the hobby but want credit for being 1337 h4x0rz, to whom an Arduino is not an entry into a fascinating world but a cheap way to sleaze credit for something they don't really deserve credit for. > The bottom line re:arduino is that anything that expands the > community by enabling people to build things that they want to build > is a win-win for me. Who cares if they don't want to solder? Who > cares if they don't want to understand digital logic? Who cares if > they aren't seeking true enlightenment? These people aren't even > necessarily hobbyists -- they are people who want to solve a problem. > Why care about the way they go about solving it? Because I've seen what's happened to other worlds when such people joined it. Electronics (I especially notice computer electronics, but other kinds too). The net. Software (having a harder time there, fortunately). Cars. Pretty much anything even vaguely complicated, and even some things that aren't - it's taken me years to find a good-quality manual tin opener. Commoditize something and it becomes hard to find people who care about it (either as users or vendors) any longer. Sometimes they're forced out of business; sometimes they're just drowned out - it's a lot easier to find four serious computer stores when they're the only computer stores than it is to find the four serious computer stores amid four hundred cheap-crap computer stores. Not that I consider it totally bleak, mind you. Your arguments do have force. I just don't think the picture is as one-sided as you make it sound. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 17 11:02:33 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:02:33 -0700 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8D9419.1060404@jwsss.com> here's your solution: http://dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.+Linux+on+8bit#uniqstr_1333116967365_q Jim On 4/17/2012 8:00 AM, David Riley wrote: > To be clear, I don't dislike the Arduino, not at all. It's great at > what it does, just like a PET. I just don't like when people get the > idea to shoehorn it into something it's totally inappropriate for, > which is something I*do* see a lot (much like Mouse's example where > a simple 555 circuit would have made much more sense). > > I was just as mad when management at one of our clients forced us to > use Linux on a little embedded board where the microcontroller was > only going to be used for housekeeping; with a tiny little event loop > for an OS, we could have done the job with a 50 MHz ARM, but instead > we ended up with an 800 MHz PowerPC which caused us no end of trouble > (not least because it was a buggy chip, which is maybe a separate > issue). I like Linux, and I like PowerPCs, but they didn't belong > there. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 11:19:53 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:19:53 -0400 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8D9419.1060404@jwsss.com> References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> <4F8D9419.1060404@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <61671E13-D5F6-4E30-83F1-77EFD606741C@gmail.com> On Apr 17, 2012, at 12:02 PM, jim s wrote: > here's your solution: > > http://dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.+Linux+on+8bit#uniqstr_1333116967365_q BWAHAHAHA, that's the funniest damn thing I've seen in a while. "You can type a command and get a reply within a minute." I mean, besides the project's obviously satirical intent, that's still pretty cool. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 17 12:37:45 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 11:37:45 -0600 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories => Gould etc. systems? In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C12A@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F8CD3A0.90207@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > There's almost 2 dozen 32/75's and 2x > > CDC 840's in that data center - > > Those are now Cyber 960s. What are the big boxy terminals (I count 12) shown in ? The keyboards have joysticks, which is unusual. The web page identifies them as plasma display terminals, so I'm guessing they are some variant of the CDC PLATO terminals. There are also 4 terminals mounted in the equipment racks in the upper left, which the web page identifies as ADM-2. In the center foreground I see one more typical looking terminal sandwiched between what looks like a printer/chart recorder and a big boxy terminal. It's difficult to identify from the rear, but I suspect this is also an ADM-2, just not rackmounted. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Apr 17 14:20:18 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:20:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <20120416223942.Horde.j15pWqQd9PdPjIOOQqgRK-Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org> <20120416202943.Horde.OJtPN6Qd9PdPjGUXu-3BH5Q@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <9B169F2C44CE42C1BFF621DE3D72B121@udvikling> <20120416223942.Horde.j15pWqQd9PdPjIOOQqgRK-Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <1334690418.1320.YahooMailNeo@web29110.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Oliver, ? don't dump the parts, yet ! I have a Zilog System 8000 in my collection as well, but didn't find time to resurrect it. It's even accessible again since a couple of weeks. Let me check in the upcoming weeks, if a tape-drive is installed in there, and, if so, if it's a DEI, too. Maybe I can be of any help here for you. ? By the way, the Onyx C8000-Series also used very early DEI-tape-drives, but I don't know, if these are of same type as those you have in your System 8000. ? Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Oliver Lehmann An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: 22:39 Montag, 16.April 2012 Betreff: Re: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive Hi Nico, Nico de Jong wrote: > Even QIC drives are not all SCSI compliant. I remember an Archive drive (5956?, 36 MB?) which had its own controller, and could not be spoken to with e.g. an Adaptec 1510. I think your only chance is to find an identical/compatible working system in a museum. Yeah I had a LR56637 once which came with an 8Bit-ISA card working in a Xenix System from Acer.... Problem is that the 2 or 3 guys I know who posess such a system did not provided copies since years for different reasons (no time, no equipment, no idea where the tape actually is). So as the time goes, the tapes will be less and less readable - if the drives are still working at all (probably not because of the gum wheel....). Looks like I should just dump the parts I have from the S8000 - sad as it was long time my dream to get a working System 8000 :( ? Greetings From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Apr 17 14:48:55 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:48:55 +0200 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <1334690418.1320.YahooMailNeo@web29110.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org> <20120416202943.Horde.OJtPN6Qd9PdPjGUXu-3BH5Q@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <9B169F2C44CE42C1BFF621DE3D72B121@udvikling> <20120416223942.Horde.j15pWqQd9PdPjIOOQqgRK-Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <1334690418.1320.YahooMailNeo@web29110.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120417214855.Horde.X-SgNqQd9PdPjcknxEx1WWA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Pierre, ok... I'll stay tuned ;) P Gebhardt wrote: > Oliver, > ? > don't dump the parts, yet ! > I have a Zilog System 8000 in my collection as well, but didn't find > time to resurrect it. It's even accessible again since a couple of > weeks. > Let me check in the upcoming weeks, if a tape-drive is installed in > there, and, if so, if it's a DEI, too. > Maybe I can be of any help here for you. > ? > By the way, the Onyx C8000-Series also used very early > DEI-tape-drives, but I don't know, if these are of same type as > those you have in your System 8000. > ? > Kind regards, > Pierre > ? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Pierre's collection of classic computers : > http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ > > > ________________________________ > Von: Oliver Lehmann > An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Gesendet: 22:39 Montag, 16.April 2012 > Betreff: Re: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive > > Hi Nico, > > Nico de Jong wrote: > >> Even QIC drives are not all SCSI compliant. I remember an Archive >> drive (5956?, 36 MB?) which had its own controller, and could not >> be spoken to with e.g. an Adaptec 1510. I think your only chance is >> to find an identical/compatible working system in a museum. > > Yeah I had a LR56637 once which came with an 8Bit-ISA card working in > a Xenix System from Acer.... > > Problem is that the 2 or 3 guys I know who posess such a system did > not provided copies since years for different reasons (no time, no > equipment, no idea where the tape actually is). > So as the time goes, the tapes will be less and less readable - if > the drives are still working at all (probably not because of the gum > wheel....). > > Looks like I should just dump the parts I have from the S8000 - sad > as it was long time my dream to get a working System 8000 :( > > ? Greetings From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Apr 17 15:02:35 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:02:35 +0200 Subject: OT: uP solutions (was: Equivalent of an A55 Transistor) In-Reply-To: References: <3201C9D6-90D6-4519-A234-99FE01804145@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120417220235.4389b7d1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 20:02:50 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Indeed. The 555 is a great solution to a great many things, and > > It's amazing how many peole think it's useful for astable (oscillator) > and monostable (timer) circuits only. I've used it as a bistable and as a > schmitt trigger too. Here is a step up DC-DC converter with current regulation for high power LEDs build around a ICM7555. (Enhanced NE555) Beware, German, but the schematics is language independent: http://www.ledstyles.de/fpost184856.html -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 14:12:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:12:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <201204161941.q3GJf2EK7471238@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 16, 12 12:41:02 pm Message-ID: > > > Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places to > > keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. > > This is my problem with fora in general. I prefer E-mail, the original > "push medium." And mine. If I read every forum that applied to soemthing I had interest in, then I'd have no time to do anything else (not even sleep). Similarly if I joined every user gorup that covered things I am interested in, I'd be unable to get in the house after a couple of days due to the piles of newsletters, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 14:18:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:18:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8C7A8C.9080302@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 16, 12 04:01:16 pm Message-ID: [Health and safety rules i nthe UK] > I'm certain that, if you stay under the radar and don't make a huge Unfortunately I am 'on the radar', not under it. I foolishly asked what the rules/regulations would be, so alas they know about me... Whether they would take action I don't know, but it doesn't seem worth risking it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 14:22:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:22:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8C7BB2.3000308@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 16, 12 04:06:10 pm Message-ID: > I'm right there with you on that...but I think that, with Arduinos in > particular, there is a net gain. FAR FAR more people are into > electronics and microcontrollers than would've been without that > platform, and SOME of those people "take off the training wheels" and I wonder just how many extra people 'take off the training wheels' (that is, take an Arduino and then go further) over and above those who would get itno electronics/microcontrollers/whatever no matter what. My guess is that it's small. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 15:04:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:04:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <4F8C2D8A.4334.12A00C1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 12 02:32:42 pm Message-ID: > Probably not--at least not using parts for "backup". I've got a > similar drive in my collection by 3M. Basic dumb drive--has the > drivers for the motion, and read/write amplifiers, but otherwise no > intelligence whatsoever. There were basically 2 classies of interfaces to such drives. 'Raw interfces, like QIC36 and QIC44, had not data procesisng in the drive. What yo get at the interface connector are the flux transitions on the tape (well, you know what I mean :-)). Foramtted itnerfaces liek QIC02 and SCSI had electronics to pack the data on the tape into nice bytes, buffer that data, and so on. A number of the drive manufactueres made fomatter PCBs that were often designed to mount under the drive to connect a formatted controlelr to an unformatted drive. Later on, the functionality was incldued in the drive itself. Be warned that a 50 pin connector, even if it's a formatted interface, may not be SCIS (or SASI). It is quite likely to be QIC-02. > > You could possibly cobble up an interface circuit using an MCU (did > someone mention Arduino?), but I've not tried that. Modern MCUs are probalby fast enough for this, but the older formatters that I've worked with typically had a microprocesosr (8085 was common as was 8048). buffer RAM and either a custom tape controller IC or a _lot_ of TTL and PLLs for the drive interface. The oldest formatter I have is 2 staked PCBS full of TTL and an 8048, it fits behaind the drive, the whole thing is the same forma factor as an 8" floppy drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 15:14:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:14:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chinese ebay eprom erasers In-Reply-To: <4F8C3F3D.29779.16F4184@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 12 03:48:13 pm Message-ID: > Well, a 75W mercury-vapor luminaire is awfully bright. Perhaps if > you removed the outer envelope. Actually, I think that might work. The inner discharge tube is most likely quartz, and one of the functions of the outer envelope is to cut off UV. Try running a glss cutter round it just about the cap and giving it a sharp tap... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 14:48:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:48:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <20120416223942.Horde.j15pWqQd9PdPjIOOQqgRK-Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> from "Oliver Lehmann" at Apr 16, 12 10:39:42 pm Message-ID: > > Problem is that the 2 or 3 guys I know who posess such a system did > not provided copies since years for different reasons (no time, no > equipment, no idea where the tape actually is). > So as the time goes, the tapes will be less and less readable - if > the drives are still working at all (probably not because of the gum > wheel....). > > Looks like I should just dump the parts I have from the S8000 - sad > as it was long time my dream to get a working System 8000 :( Ah, so this is the S8000 tape drive. Firstly, I certainly have no time to do _any_ hackery at the momnet, what with my father still being in hospital. But if the wheel in my tape drive has decayed, I will almost certainly be able to repair it. I've done other roller replacements in the past, after all. Something in the back of my mind says that the S800 tapes are 4 track QIC-11. You can reliably read a 4 track QIC tape on a 9 track drive. And most older QIC drives did support QIC11 encodeing. Whether you can find oen that still does I don;t know.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 14:52:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:52:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: <20120416205931.GC69715@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Apr 16, 12 10:59:31 pm Message-ID: > No Tony, for sure this is not such an circuit. > I've meausred the pieces of the wirewound resistor, it must had a > resistance with approx 4-5 Kohms before. The Place for the FET is marked Ok, lets think for a second.. This wirewound resisotr is, perhaps, 4700 ohms. And it burnt up spectacualrly, so perhaps it disipated at least 5W. Now, P=V^2/R, so V= sqrt(P*R). That implies a voltage across that resistor of about 153V by my calculations. And a voltage that won't drop even when supplying such a load. Are you sure? > GDS on the PCB and lat but not least the circuit isn't connected to the > Capacitors on the mains side. What is it conencted to? Which side of the isulation barrier is it on (mains or output side?) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 15:19:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:19:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <4F8CA347.4090307@vaxen.net> from "Doc Shipley" at Apr 16, 12 05:55:03 pm Message-ID: > My 2 favorite fora allow you to subscribe to interesting threads, and How can you know if there are any new interesting threads unless you read the forum (or at least the index) from time to time. And what happens if a prevoulsy- boring thread drifts into an area you're interested in? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 14:57:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:57:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 16, 12 05:14:01 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/16/2012 04:07 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I asked for his address and > >> phone number; he ignored me. He even refused my offer to send cash. > > > > That does sound a bit fishy - if I'm selling something, I can't see a > > good reason for withholding contact information. > > I can. Phone calls are disruptive and a pain. Some people (like me!) > despise phone calls. > I agree with you. Telephones are interesting things to investiage and repair, but totally unsuitable for communication. I object ot be interrupted when I am trying to get somethign running. And I flatly refuse to answer technical questions o nthe telephone, I want to be able to take time to think about them, look things up, etc. That said, if I was selling something, I would give the buyer my telehpne number, but tell him that hw should only use it if there's some kind of major problem (e.g. he's coming to collect it and his car has broken down). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 15:27:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:27:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: from "Bogdan Barbu" at Apr 17, 12 03:52:17 am Message-ID: > Damn, here it is: $500 :) > > But seriously, I'm interested in it if you do indeed have that. I was half-joking when I posted that last night, because I'd not checked the version. But it might even be the version you are looking for too... The title page says 6280131 SS34-0007-00 March 18, 1986 That said, there is no way I am selling it. Period. Not matter what you offer me. I've got a couple of such EGA cards here, not in this machine (after all ,ther are 5 ASICs on them, so it doens't meet the requirements for p850ug1), but I do run them occasionally. I need the manual... Be warned that there is very little information on the EGA monitor in ehre. There is no schematic of the monitor, for example. I do ahve my own scheamtics of my (240V) 5154 though. There are scheamtics for the EGA card and a BIOS liating. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 15:33:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:33:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Apr 17, 12 11:41:33 am Message-ID: > > I find the dislike of the Arduino by some people in this forum a bit > silly, yet funny in a history-repeating way. The Arduino, in my > opinion, occupies roughly the same space that the Vic-20 (or ZX-81) > did back in its day. It's a great intro to the field. There's nothing that says I like the ZX81 either... In fact I feel it did a lot of harm to home computing over here. But that's a separae issue. There is a big difference between a computer system and a microcontroller. It's possible to use the former without understanding any electronics (I didnt;' say it was desirable...). You can learn to program without understandign what goes on inside the procesosr. But the whole point of a microcontroller is to control things. That means taking inputs (swithces, esnors, etc) and driving things (relays, motor drivers, DACs, etc). Unless yyu are only goign to use the ready-built 'sheilds' (as I believe they are claled), you _have_ to understnad electroncis to do that. You have to be sable to solder. The Aurduino board I saw (admittedly not an offical one) had a few DIL-packaged through-hole ICs on it. Soldering tht sort of thing is not a problem, or at least shouldn't be, I realyl feel that anyoe who can design and build the necessary circuitry to interface to their devices is not going to ahve a problem with wiring a microcotnrolelr to a crystal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 17 15:36:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:36:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: from "Bogdan Barbu" at Apr 17, 12 03:52:15 pm Message-ID: > Btw, anyone have any clue which document contained the technical > documentation for the MCGA? I'l lsee if there's anything in my PS/2 Hardware Interface Techref, but in genrral that manual is much less technical than the older ones. No scheamtics or BIOS sources for a start :-( -tony From doc at vaxen.net Tue Apr 17 16:51:57 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 16:51:57 -0500 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8DE5FD.1010502@vaxen.net> On 4/17/12 3:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> My 2 favorite fora allow you to subscribe to interesting threads, and > > How can you know if there are any new interesting threads unless you read > the forum (or at least the index) from time to time. And what happens if > a prevoulsy- boring thread drifts into an area you're interested in? I do read at least the topic lists from time to time. As for boring threads becoming interesting, mostly those posts just get lost. Same thing goes on here - I scan almost everything I get from ClassicCmp, but when a thread's been down the rabbit hole for days and the quoted text exceeds a visual page, I'm likely to take a VERY quick look and delete. Or just delete.... I have a lot more information availble to me than I have time to view it, much less process it. There's a fairly high level of triage going on, which means that I certainly miss things that would be useful to me. Can't help that; it's kind of "Welcome to Life Online". Doc From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 17 17:05:20 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:05:20 +1200 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: <4F8CA347.4090307@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > My 2 favorite fora allow you to subscribe to interesting threads, and > > How can you know if there are any new interesting threads unless you read > the forum (or at least the index) from time to time. And what happens if > a prevoulsy- boring thread drifts into an area you're interested in? > > -tony > > Personally don't use email alerts, except for the forum I manage. I do visit my favourite forum (VCF) every day to check up on the updates so I have no need of that facility. The forum shows you a list of postings that were made since you last visited. I find it managable. Terry (Tez) From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Apr 17 17:27:37 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:27:37 +0100 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7329235E9AE64151882494BE9A645069@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk]wrote: > The title page says > 6280131 > SS34-0007-00 > March 18, 1986 > > That said, there is no way I am selling it. Period. Not > matter what you > offer me. No need. For half of the $500 I'll drive to London, borrow, scan it, and return it the next day ... Please check the rest of the list first though to save further trips :-) Antonio From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 18:23:25 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:23:25 -0500 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: its sitting at 101 euros atm On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > maybe someone from europe has interes in this and is willing to > drive to Frankfurt to collect it. A fairly complete lokking > NOVA1200 system. > > http://www.ebay.de/itm/160781530347 > > He wrote, that on request he is also able to provide another > NOVA 1200 processor and two additional disk drives series 30. > > I wonder where the price will go... > > ?Greetings. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 17 18:47:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 19:47:09 -0400 Subject: SCSI-1 to IDE converter board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8E00FD.7040703@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2012 03:53 PM, Hauke Fath wrote: >> I've designed a PCB that converts SCSI-1 to IDE and SD. > > Cool project, although I guess that designing the hardware isn't half of > it, by far... I especially like the fact that this is not your regular > oodles-of-pins SMT chip assembly. SMT...just too easy for some people I guess. ;) > I could even bring an Ancot scsi analyzer to the table; only thing missing > is time... 8-/ Hey, I have one of those too! Neat box. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 19:00:16 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 03:00:16 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2012/4/17 Tony Duell : > That said, there is no way I am selling it. Period. Not matter what you > offer me. I've got a couple of such EGA cards here, not in this machine > (after all ,ther ?are 5 ASICs on them, so it doens't meet the > requirements for p850ug1), but I do run them occasionally. I need the > manual... I thought some people might prefer to keep the manuals for one reason or another, which is why I said that I'd be fine with either a physical or digital copy. Any idea if/when you will get around to it? Not that there is any hurry. Cheers, Bogdan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 17 19:01:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:01:40 -0400 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <1334690418.1320.YahooMailNeo@web29110.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <20120416193423.Horde.BhejbaQd9PdPjFgfIbGxIFQ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4F8C6013.5010103@bitsavers.org> <20120416202943.Horde.OJtPN6Qd9PdPjGUXu-3BH5Q@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <9B169F2C44CE42C1BFF621DE3D72B121@udvikling> <20120416223942.Horde.j15pWqQd9PdPjIOOQqgRK-Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <1334690418.1320.YahooMailNeo@web29110.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F8E0464.2060304@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2012 03:20 PM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Oliver, > > don't dump the parts, yet ! > I have a Zilog System 8000 in my collection as well, but didn't find time to resurrect it. It's even accessible again since a couple of weeks. > Let me check in the upcoming weeks, if a tape-drive is installed in there, and, if so, if it's a DEI, too. > Maybe I can be of any help here for you. I'm watching this with interest. I had a System 8000 for a few years many years ago; what a great machine. I made the mistake of selling it; I wish I could get it back! > By the way, the Onyx C8000-Series also used very early DEI-tape-drives, but I don't know, if these are of same type as those you have in your System 8000. I have an Onyx C8000 in storage. I haven't seen it for about 22 years! I will be digging it out soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 19:32:04 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 19:32:04 -0500 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8E0B84.3040806@gmail.com> On 04/17/2012 02:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 04/16/2012 04:07 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> I asked for his address and >>>> phone number; he ignored me. He even refused my offer to send cash. >>> >>> That does sound a bit fishy - if I'm selling something, I can't see a >>> good reason for withholding contact information. >> >> I can. Phone calls are disruptive and a pain. Some people (like me!) >> despise phone calls. > > I agree with you. Telephones are interesting things to investiage and > repair, but totally unsuitable for communication. I object ot be > interrupted when I am trying to get somethign running. I'm an expert at ignoring my landline, and it diverts to voicemail after 5 rings. I do generally check it reasonably soon after to see who called, and my time before calling them back is dependent on various factors :-) > That said, if I was selling something, I would give the buyer my telehpne > number, but tell him that hw should only use it if there's some kind of > major problem (e.g. he's coming to collect it and his car has broken > down). That's what I've always done, and it's served me well enough - an awful lot of things have left my paws over the years and I've not had any annoying experiences that I can think of (same with giving out an address - I've always found that people turn up when they say they will, plus or minus a few minutes). cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 17 19:36:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 17:36:02 -0700 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: References: <4F8C2D8A.4334.12A00C1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 12 02:32:42 pm, Message-ID: <4F8DAA02.9878.1EE83C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2012 at 21:04, Tony Duell wrote: > Be warned that a 50 pin connector, even if it's a formatted interface, > may not be SCIS (or SASI). It is quite likely to be QIC-02. I think it's older than any QIC standard. It's a 3M DCD-3, sometime around 1974? Takes +/- 15VDC and -/+ 5VDC. It's a 50 pin interface, but looking at the traces on the connector tells me it's not even close to QIC-36 or QIC-02. Got any information on the drive? --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 17 19:42:50 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:42:50 -0400 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8C7BB2.3000308@neurotica.com> References: <4F8C7BB2.3000308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8E0E0A.5040302@telegraphics.com.au> > One can "graduate" from the Arduino software platform and start > programming the microcontroller directly, or one can use the Arduino > software platform on a scratch-built board, just as easily. Basically > someone can "graduate" into more advanced hardware OR more advanced > software whenever they feel comfortable, and do the other later. I have a little Duemilanove here. I'm used to 'bare metal' PIC18 coding. Since you probably know: what's the quickest route to that on the Arduino, given that my host is OS X/PPC... I was a little disturbed by the "just press play" IDE. --Toby > > -Dave > From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Apr 17 20:15:26 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:15:26 -0700 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: On 17 Apr 2012, at 4:23 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > its sitting at 101 euros atm And, from my perspective, sitting on the wrong side of a damn ocean! -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 20:37:30 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:37:30 -0500 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: wo nders what it will go for From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 20:56:12 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:56:12 -0500 Subject: paper tape trays Message-ID: i'm going to be venturing down the road of making some is anyone interested in any prolly be july befor i have anything in stone got access to a vacuum molder and such but got to make molds first for it. when i talk trays i mean as close to a reproduction of the original DEC trays as i can get http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5597/data.jpg From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 17 20:56:05 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: straight-8 miniaturised Message-ID: Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 using flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I have a hankering to run some numbers about it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 17 21:01:04 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:01:04 -0400 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> Message-ID: <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> > I really need to get space back in my house and shed. > > Got 4 Apple IIGS Monitors tested and working at $20 each > TRS80 Magazines, Owners Manuals, Documentation, enough to fill the > back of the car for free. > Box of 50 Pin SCSI Hard Drives 40-80MB Drives $20 > Apple //e Platinum tested and working $20 > > Lots more from PC Stuff to external 3.5 drives all of it. > > Monday morning it will be recycled. > > Im located in Flushing MI I emailed Landon and I was prepared to buy the //e Platinum. I emailed him Saturday, which was plenty of time before his Monday morning deadline. He emailed me back today saying he already trashed it. Why the (BLEEP) would anyone who claims to care about vintage computers do that??? And why have a deadline if you're not going to keep it? Luckily, someone on this list advised me of his reputation, so I'm glad I didn't do business with Landon. If anyone * else * is selling a //e Platinum in good condition, then I'd really like to buy it. I'd prefer the second model (grey color) but would be happy with the first model (same color as earlier //e versions, but had the numeric keypad.) From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 17 21:07:14 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:07:14 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8E21D2.8050703@snarc.net> > I can. Phone calls are disruptive and a pain. Some people (like me!) despise phone calls. That reminds me, I have to call you tonight, we're rejecting your PDP-11/70 exhibit for VCF East. Just kidding. :) From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 21:24:55 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 19:24:55 -0700 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F8E25F7.6060206@gmail.com> On 4/17/2012 7:01 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I emailed Landon and I was prepared to buy the //e Platinum. I emailed > him Saturday, which was plenty of time before his Monday morning > deadline. He emailed me back today saying he already trashed it. Why > the (BLEEP) would anyone who claims to care about vintage computers do > that??? And why have a deadline if you're not going to keep it? > > Luckily, someone on this list advised me of his reputation, so I'm > glad I didn't do business with Landon. > I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think he actually had it. He offered to sell me 8 of them at $20 each + $60 shipping if I just sent him money in advance. Of course, I didn't. This also came up http://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/MI12890591/Steven-Thomas-Landon.html From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 17 21:25:29 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 19:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: straight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, David Griffith wrote: > Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:56:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Griffith > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: straight-8 miniaturised > > > Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 using > flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I have a hankering to run > some numbers about it. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > I think I at least chimed in on this but was thinkin a large say 18"x18" single board. But for modules how about a PCIE 1 lane = 18+18 connector maybe double side redundent Peter Wallace From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 17 21:28:02 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:28:02 -0500 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8E26B2.50104@jbrain.com> On 4/17/2012 10:00 AM, David Riley wrote: > To be clear, I don't dislike the Arduino, not at all. It's great at > what it does, just like a PET. I just don't like when people get the > idea to shoehorn it into something it's totally inappropriate for, > which is something I *do* see a lot (much like Mouse's example where a > simple 555 circuit would have made much more sense). Not trying to pick a fight, but I will respectfully disagree. I suspect we all have been working on a job, needed a specific tool we did not possess, and decided to repurpose another tool wholly inappropriate for the task to accomplish the goal. Why? Because the job needed done and we decided that the goal was the job, not the perfect use of a tool. Sure, we could go buy the right tool, but we didn't. We probably don't do it often, but I think the only people that can safely complain over the use of a arduino instead of a 555 are those who have never in their lives used a tool in anything but its preferred domain. I suspect that list of people is suitably small. Mind you, I cringe a bit when I see someone using a MEGA32 instead of a 555 or a set of logic gates, but then I remember that the IC is not their goal, the output or the thing being cycled/timed/on shotted, etc. is the goal. Kudos to them for finding a way to get to the goal as quickly as possible. While I whine about misuse of tooling, they are creating/innovation/learning. I'll also admit the arduino bothered me, someone who built their own parallel port AVR programmer, created projects from scratch with the avr-gcc toolchain, installed and configured avrdude to do the programming, and wired up my own AVR on perfboard. However, at some point, I started to smile that arduino had created a huge market for AVR-compatible items, and it had raised the visibility of the AVR. I was glad, because for the longest time, PIC sat on top of the hobby community, and Parallax's BASIC Stamp and stuff like that reigned. As someone who compared the PIC to the AVR 8 bit line and found the PIC lagging significantly in many areas except part options and price, I was glad the better architecture found a chance to shine. On 4/17/2012 7:42 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > I have a little Duemilanove here. I'm used to 'bare metal' PIC18 > coding. Since you probably know: what's the quickest route to that on > the Arduino, given that my host is OS X/PPC... I was a little > disturbed by the "just press play" IDE. Get an AVR programmer (AVR ISP Mk II is a good choice, lots of cheap clones if you're not Win7 64 bit. Don't try a clone on Win7 64 bit, trust me, lots of pain and frustration) Grab a copy of WinAVR off the net. get avrdude running and attach a programming port to the Arduino clone (pins are described in the datasheet for the AVR on the board) Feel free to ask folks like myself for help. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 17 21:28:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:28:17 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8E21D2.8050703@snarc.net> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> <4F8E21D2.8050703@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F8E26C1.7050308@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2012 10:07 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> I can. Phone calls are disruptive and a pain. Some people (like me!) >> despise phone calls. > > That reminds me, I have to call you tonight, we're rejecting your > PDP-11/70 exhibit for VCF East. > > Just kidding. :) Mmm-hm. ;) I got the machine running RSTS/E last night, working on getting the serial mux configured tonight. Pic in a moment. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 17 21:29:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:29:46 -0400 Subject: straight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8E271A.2000103@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2012 09:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 > using flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I have a > hankering to run some numbers about it. I had been considering it, but I don't think I ever told anybody about it. Either I did and forgot, you're a mind-reader, or somebody else had the same idea. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 21:35:52 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:35:52 -0400 Subject: straight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 using > flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? ?I have a hankering to > run some numbers about it. I remember discussing the topic with Vince Slyngstad. I just had wild ideas - he had practical ideas. There were two approaches discussed - miniaturized SMT Flip Chips mounted on some sort of backplane interconnect, or one or two boards large enough to contain the circuit of a Straight-8 but without the modularity. The costs of thousands of pins put a damper on the practical implementation of the first kind, and the cost of hundreds of square inches of small-run PCBs put a damper on the second approach. Vince would probably be the one who ran numbers. I still think it's a neat idea, but likely to be too expensive to undertake casually. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 17 21:57:00 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:57:00 -0400 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: <4F8E25F7.6060206@gmail.com> References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> <4F8E25F7.6060206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8E2D7C.9090108@snarc.net> >> I emailed Landon and I was prepared to buy the //e Platinum. I >> emailed him Saturday, which was plenty of time before his Monday >> morning deadline. He emailed me back today saying he already trashed >> it. Why the (BLEEP) would anyone who claims to care about vintage >> computers do that??? And why have a deadline if you're not going to >> keep it? >> >> Luckily, someone on this list advised me of his reputation, so I'm >> glad I didn't do business with Landon. >> > I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think he actually had it. He > offered to sell me 8 of them at $20 each + $60 shipping if I just sent > him money in advance. Of course, I didn't. This also came up > http://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/MI12890591/Steven-Thomas-Landon.html Wow .... but then why didn't he take my money when he had a chance? From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 22:09:00 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 23:09:00 -0400 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8E26B2.50104@jbrain.com> References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> <4F8E26B2.50104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2012, at 10:28 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Not trying to pick a fight, but I will respectfully disagree. I suspect we all have been working on a job, needed a specific tool we did not possess, and decided to repurpose another tool wholly inappropriate for the task to accomplish the goal. Why? Because the job needed done and we decided that the goal was the job, not the perfect use of a tool. Sure, we could go buy the right tool, but we didn't. Well, yes. When all you've got is a hammer, you need to learn how to make more things act like nails. I suppose I wasn't considering situations where you're constrained by availability; I'm more concerned by people who don't even think about what they're putting down because that's "too much work". > Mind you, I cringe a bit when I see someone using a MEGA32 instead of a 555 or a set of logic gates, but then I remember that the IC is not their goal, the output or the thing being cycled/timed/on shotted, etc. is the goal. Kudos to them for finding a way to get to the goal as quickly as possible. While I whine about misuse of tooling, they are creating/innovation/learning. True. All the clever 555 hacks in the world don't matter if your product doesn't ship on time. Usually, anyway. > I'll also admit the arduino bothered me, someone who built their own parallel port AVR programmer, created projects from scratch with the avr-gcc toolchain, installed and configured avrdude to do the programming, and wired up my own AVR on perfboard. However, at some point, I started to smile that arduino had created a huge market for AVR-compatible items, and it had raised the visibility of the AVR. I was glad, because for the longest time, PIC sat on top of the hobby community, and Parallax's BASIC Stamp and stuff like that reigned. As someone who compared the PIC to the AVR 8 bit line and found the PIC lagging significantly in many areas except part options and price, I was glad the better architecture found a chance to shine. Absolutely agreed. The PIC can rot in hell (maybe that's an overreaction, but I've been forced to use it by clients who were "uncomfortable" because they didn't know about anything else). I like the AVR for a lot of things, and I'm glad it's getting its day; I'm also glad it's getting an overhaul with the XMEGA series, though I wish the debug tools were more stable on OSX. Curiously, it's terrible for writing a Forth interpreter (as I suspect many Harvard architecture machines are), but I'm quite sure the PIC would be a lot worse. > On 4/17/2012 7:42 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> I have a little Duemilanove here. I'm used to 'bare metal' PIC18 coding. Since you probably know: what's the quickest route to that on the Arduino, given that my host is OS X/PPC... I was a little disturbed by the "just press play" IDE. > > Get an AVR programmer (AVR ISP Mk II is a good choice, lots of cheap clones if you're not Win7 64 bit. Don't try a clone on Win7 64 bit, trust me, lots of pain and frustration) > Grab a copy of WinAVR off the net. > get avrdude running and attach a programming port to the Arduino clone (pins are described in the datasheet for the AVR on the board) > Feel free to ask folks like myself for help. Well, he's using a Mac, so WinAVR isn't that helpful. I've gotten the patched GCC toolchain up and running well enough to program my XMEGA-based wireless sensor nodes, but I'm not so thrilled with how well it works. It's probably better on non- XMEGAs, but I'm not working with any of them right now. Toby: the AVR Dragon is a nice $50 programmer from Atmel which does the job admirably on most AVRs (especially now that they've lifted the 32K limit for debugging). You'll need a Windows machine to run their software to update its firmware to get the latest fixes (like lifting that 32K limit), though. I'll be glad to help if you need to get the toolchain running on OSX. - Dave From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 22:34:19 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:34:19 -0700 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: <4F8E2D7C.9090108@snarc.net> References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> <4F8E25F7.6060206@gmail.com> <4F8E2D7C.9090108@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F8E363B.6020001@gmail.com> On 4/17/2012 7:57 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think he actually had it. He >> offered to sell me 8 of them at $20 each + $60 shipping if I just >> sent him money in advance. Of course, I didn't. This also came up >> http://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/MI12890591/Steven-Thomas-Landon.html > > > Wow .... but then why didn't he take my money when he had a chance? I don't pretend to know what is going on here. It's actually hard to understand. He may actually not be scamming anyone since so far nobody has said they got ripped off on this list but, I haven't heard anyone speak up for him either. I just decided to back off on my own after reading of his past activities. I guess it's a case of buyer beware and make up your own mind about it. I will say this. If a deal seems too good to be true it usually is. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 17 22:56:00 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:56:00 -0700 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: <4F8E363B.6020001@gmail.com> References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> <4F8E25F7.6060206@gmail.com> <4F8E2D7C.9090108@snarc.net> <4F8E363B.6020001@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:34 PM -0700 4/17/12, mc68010 wrote: >I don't pretend to know what is going on here. It's actually hard to >understand. He may actually not be scamming anyone since so far >nobody has said they got ripped off on this list but, I haven't >heard anyone speak up for him either. I just decided to back off on >my own after reading of his past activities. I guess it's a case of >buyer beware and make up your own mind about it. I will say this. If >a deal seems too good to be true it usually is. It also appears that his only posts to this list have been this month, and attempting to unload stuff. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 23:11:43 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:11:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/L core memory surgery In-Reply-To: References: <4F8346A8.9060604@abc80.net> <98b56107f66dfc78eba5036b4c80bbc5.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <1334673238.93190.YahooMailRC@web83716.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4F8DC2EF.1080008@abc80.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The M220 tester is the one that I want to see > working. Those modules are problematic and difficult to test in a > partially working system. I would love to see (and build!) an M220 tester. That's a complex module. -ethan From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 23:22:38 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:22:38 -0700 Subject: straight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8E418E.1000505@gmail.com> On 4/17/2012 6:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 > using flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I have a > hankering to run some numbers about it. > I have a PDP8 in an FPGA that can be configured as a Straight-8. It's about an inch on a side. That includes 32Kx12 memory, 3 serial ports, EAE, RTC, and a disk controller that is register compatible with an RK8E. It emulates 4 RK05 disks on a Secure Digital (SD) memory card. That adds another inch-and-a-half or so of board area. You'll need RS232 buffers, a crystal, and it needs a bit of a power supply. The PDP8, a VT100 terminal (VGA and PS/2 KBD), and a connector for all the front panel switches and lights all fits on a 2.5 x 3.8 inch circuit board. I just got it booting OS/8 the other night - BASIC, FOCAL, and PAL8 all run from OS/8. (It does crash running my favorite program /advent/ - so something ain't right. If anybody has any debugging suggestions - contact me off list!). I have models for all of the IO including the SD card so I can boot OS/8 to the 'dot prompt' in the logic simulator in a couple of minutes. GHDL is even faster. Even *if* you decide to do flipchips with SMT parts, you may want to consider prototyping with an FPGA. I can recompile the design and load it into the target in less time than I can move a wire- wrap wire. Rob. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 17 23:39:54 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:39:54 -0700 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> <4F8E25F7.6060206@gmail.com> <4F8E2D7C.9090108@snarc.net> <4F8E363B.6020001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F8E459A.7010008@jwsss.com> On 4/17/2012 8:56 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:34 PM -0700 4/17/12, mc68010 wrote: >> I don't pretend to know what is going on here. It's actually hard to >> understand. He may actually not be scamming anyone since so far >> nobody has said they got ripped off on this list but, I haven't heard >> anyone speak up for him either. I just decided to back off on my own >> after reading of his past activities. I guess it's a case of buyer >> beware and make up your own mind about it. I will say this. If a deal >> seems too good to be true it usually is. > > It also appears that his only posts to this list have been this month, > and attempting to unload stuff. > > Zane > > > I recall a fellow, possibly this guy who got off pulling peoples legs with listings of for sale stuff back in Usenet days on some computer lists. I'm suspecting this guy only has descriptions, and has relieved some people of money and not others, but basically he has nada. Please beware of him from all of the postings about him in various forms. Jim From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 23:56:39 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:56:39 -0700 Subject: Evans and Sutherland parts and Soroc 120 posted Message-ID: Spotted on epay Evans and Sutherland Misc in Portland Oregon. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Evans-Sutherland-ESCP-Power-Supply-030446-001-Card-Testers-/110861098094 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Evans-Sutherland-ESCP-Card-Gage-Tester-030451-001-High-Voltage-/310394204474 I don't think there is much left and these seem to be power supply and testing equipment, hopefully of interest to someone. Soroc 120 terminal - rough - Vancouver BC http://www.ebay.com/itm/140735397588 I have visited the Hackery and bought stuff from them, they seem to be reliable but I have no experience with their packing. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 18 00:17:25 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:17:25 -0700 Subject: straight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:35 PM > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 using >> flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I have a hankering to >> run some numbers about it. > > I remember discussing the topic with Vince Slyngstad. I just had wild > ideas - he had practical ideas. I remember talking about it, but I'd have to look at my archives to recover what was said. I do have a drawing of an R202 on a 1"x2" board, with a 20-pin right angle header instead of the 18-pin edge connector. I had also done a drawing for an adapter, which would allow you to debug by replacing individual modules in a real -8 or -8/S with their SMT equivalents. It looks like at some point I started an SMT R210 drawing, but I must have gotten distracted, as it never got done. > There were two approaches discussed - miniaturized SMT Flip Chips > mounted on some sort of backplane interconnect, or one or two boards > large enough to contain the circuit of a Straight-8 but without the > modularity. The costs of thousands of pins put a damper on the > practical implementation of the first kind, and the cost of hundreds > of square inches of small-run PCBs put a damper on the second > approach. Yep. I lean toward doing the interconnect because of the "cool factor" of all the tiny little boards looking a bit like a miniaturized version of the original. I think it would be more expensive, but easier to debug. Of course, you probably end up with a "big board" for the backplane, but I can actually generate that auto-magically from drawings of a full-size backplane. Still, one would have to pay to get it manufactured and then to populate all the connector sites. Plus having all the module boards fabricated. One thing I am pretty sure of, is that you don't want gold edge connectors. Those are just way too pricey, and they tend to also move you out of the places that will let you send them a panelization. (Instead, I suggest the use of gold-plated right-angle headers to connect to the backplane.) Come to think of it, I do remember something about trying once upon a time to figure out how many 8"x10" panel layouts would have to be sent out to end up with all the right module quantities. I think that might have been for an 8/S design, though. > Vince would probably be the one who ran numbers. As I say, I'd have to look in my archives. > I still think it's a neat idea, but likely to be too expensive to > undertake casually. Got a front panel? Those are the really expensive part, I believe. I suspect one would spend about as much getting a nice front panel made as for the CPU guts. (Assuming standard 2-sided "prototype quality" service for the boards, and quantity purchases of a few types of SMT transistors, diodes, and such.) Oh, and another issue -- unless you redo all the component values, you'll end up generating the same heat in a much smaller volume. I'm not enough of an expert to understand the tradeoff of power against speed, but I doubt if one can get the speed without the heat. At some point you'd also want to drive the bus cables, and that will definitely need some power. OTOH, replacing the core memory subsystem will probably save a bunch of power. Vince From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 18 00:30:59 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:30:59 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/L core memory surgery In-Reply-To: References: <4F8346A8.9060604@abc80.net> <98b56107f66dfc78eba5036b4c80bbc5.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <1334673238.93190.YahooMailRC@web83716.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4F8DC2EF.1080008@abc80.net> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 9:11 PM > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Michael Thompson > wrote: >> The M220 tester is the one that I want to see >> working. Those modules are problematic and difficult to test in a >> partially working system. > > I would love to see (and build!) an M220 tester. That's a complex module. Not sure how this got to this list, but... I don't think the M220 is hard to build a tester for. The hard part as I see it would be generating the rather large set of test vectors needed to exercise an M220 fully. (Electrically, the M220 doesn't have any funky analog or anything like that do deal with.) Vince From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 18 00:32:19 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:32:19 -0700 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Adrian Stoness: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:56 PM > i'm going to be venturing down the road of making some is anyone > interested in any prolly be july befor i have anything in stone got > access to a vacuum molder and such but got to make molds first for it. > > when i talk trays i mean as close to a reproduction of the original > DEC trays as i can get > > http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5597/data.jpg I'd be interested in a few of those, assuming I could afford them :-). Vince From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 18 00:48:21 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:48:21 +0200 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: <4F8E25F7.6060206@gmail.com> References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> <4F8E25F7.6060206@gmail.com> Message-ID: Snip snip snip > On 4/17/2012 7:01 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/MI12890591/Steven-Thomas-Landon.html > > His birthday is 11/11.... We call it over here (in the Nethelands) the lunatics day (i.e. start of Carnaval season at 11:11:11 in the morning). Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 00:54:11 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 00:54:11 -0500 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i will let u know once i've got the costs and such figured out hopefully they won't be to expensive > I'd be interested in a few of those, assuming I could afford them :-). > > ? Vince > From mailinglists at lenerz.org Tue Apr 17 13:19:24 2012 From: mailinglists at lenerz.org (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:19:24 +0200 Subject: WTB: SGI Professional IRIS CPU / Help Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1469623882.20120417201924@lenerz.org> Hi! Saturday, 14. April 2012 Robert Herget wrote: > Hi I was wondering if you still have your Professional Iris 4D/50G? Yes, it's still there. There hasn't been any real progress in the last 2 years [1]since I posted. I have tried to move the RAM around a little bit more and looked for obvious damage, but nothing did help. It's been sitting idle since. As a matter of fact, I'd still like to find some spares for it. CPU, etc. Regards, Gerhard -- mailinglists at lenerz.org From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 19:07:00 2012 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 19:07:00 -0500 Subject: SCSI-1 to IDE converter board In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd1bdd$81996ad0$84cc4070$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: I was about to ask about this a few days ago. If I had more experience in coding id definitely go for it, but maybe more people here have more experience than I do... On Monday, April 16, 2012, Hauke Fath wrote: > At 10:30 Uhr -0400 16.4.2012, Andrew Lynch wrote: >>I've designed a PCB that converts SCSI-1 to IDE and SD. > > Cool project, although I guess that designing the hardware isn't half of > it, by far... I especially like the fact that this is not your regular > oodles-of-pins SMT chip assembly. > > I could even bring an Ancot scsi analyzer to the table; only thing missing > is time... 8-/ > > hauke > > > -- > "It's never straight up and down" (DEVO) > > > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Apr 18 00:59:44 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:59:44 +0200 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120418075944.Horde.oNC6faQd9PdPjlhQtKxmAVA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> I already forewarned my wife that I would bought it if it stays cheap - "are you serious?!?!?!" she responded ;) Adrian Stoness wrote: > its sitting at 101 euros atm > > On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> Hi, >> >> maybe someone from europe has interes in this and is willing to >> drive to Frankfurt to collect it. A fairly complete lokking >> NOVA1200 system. >> >> http://www.ebay.de/itm/160781530347 >> >> He wrote, that on request he is also able to provide another >> NOVA 1200 processor and two additional disk drives series 30. >> >> I wonder where the price will go... >> >> ?Greetings. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Apr 18 01:02:21 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:02:21 +0200 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <4F8DAA02.9878.1EE83C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F8C2D8A.4334.12A00C1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 12 02:32:42 pm, <4F8DAA02.9878.1EE83C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120418080221.Horde.D-F_I6Qd9PdPjljtwZtFaxA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Chuck, where is the reference between your 3M DCD-3 drive and my DEI or Quantex drives? Just wondering if I missed something. Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Apr 2012 at 21:04, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Be warned that a 50 pin connector, even if it's a formatted interface, >> may not be SCIS (or SASI). It is quite likely to be QIC-02. > > I think it's older than any QIC standard. It's a 3M DCD-3, sometime > around 1974? Takes +/- 15VDC and -/+ 5VDC. It's a 50 pin > interface, but looking at the traces on the connector tells me it's > not even close to QIC-36 or QIC-02. > > Got any information on the drive? > > --Chuck From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 18 01:09:27 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:09:27 +0200 Subject: straight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: <4F8E271A.2000103@neurotica.com> References: <4F8E271A.2000103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8E5A97.5090708@update.uu.se> On 04/18/2012 04:29 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2012 09:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 >> using flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I have a >> hankering to run some numbers about it. > I had been considering it, but I don't think I ever told anybody about > it. Either I did and forgot, you're a mind-reader, or somebody else had > the same idea. > > -Dave > I too have been considering it and not tell anyone because its a little crazy (and crazy cool). I started thinking about it when I saw the MT15 which is a cpu all in surface mount components. http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm Building flipchips in a package like this seems doable: http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15_nand.jpg Complexity among the flip chips vary though. A couple R111 could probably share the same circuit board, while an R151 probably needs more space: http://www.pdp8.net/r-boards/pics/r111.shtml?small http://www.pdp8.net/r-boards/pics/r151.shtml?small For me, time and skill is a limitation. But I'd follow such a project very closely. Regards, Pontus. From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 18 01:16:16 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:16:16 +0200 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8E5C30.5080000@update.uu.se> On 04/18/2012 07:54 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i will let u know once i've got the costs and such figured out > > hopefully they won't be to expensive > >> I'd be interested in a few of those, assuming I could afford them :-). >> >> Vince I'd like two or three depending on price. The simplest ones look just like a piece of plastic board form pressed and shouldn't be too hard to replicate. Replicating the transparent blue ones might be harder but oh so sexy :) /P From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 01:17:47 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:17:47 -0500 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: <20120418075944.Horde.oNC6faQd9PdPjlhQtKxmAVA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418075944.Horde.oNC6faQd9PdPjlhQtKxmAVA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: o? tempted to try and bring it to canada if it does not shot up much higher On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I already forewarned my wife that I would bought it if it stays > cheap - "are you serious?!?!?!" she responded ;) > > > Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> its sitting at 101 euros atm >> >> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Oliver Lehmann >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> maybe someone from europe has interes in this and is willing to >>> drive to Frankfurt to collect it. A fairly complete lokking >>> NOVA1200 system. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.de/itm/160781530347 >>> >>> He wrote, that on request he is also able to provide another >>> NOVA 1200 processor and two additional disk drives series 30. >>> >>> I wonder where the price will go... >>> >>> ?Greetings. > > > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 18 01:40:00 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:40:00 +0200 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:15:26 -0700 Christian Kennedy wrote: > And, from my perspective, sitting on the wrong side of a damn ocean! And, from my perspective, sitting on the _right_ side of a damn ocean! It's about a 1 hour drive from my home to the location. But I am not biding for it. I simply have no space left and due to medical reasons I can't carry heavy machinery anymore. :-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 01:47:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:47:39 -0500 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: :( would u help at least get it shipped over seas if it came down to it? On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:40 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:15:26 -0700 > Christian Kennedy wrote: > >> And, from my perspective, sitting on the wrong side of a damn ocean! > And, from my perspective, sitting on the _right_ side of a damn ocean! > It's about a 1 hour drive from my home to the location. But I am not > biding for it. I simply have no space left and due to medical reasons I > can't carry heavy machinery anymore. :-( > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Apr 18 01:50:11 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:50:11 +0200 Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: References: <20120416205931.GC69715@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120418065011.GA6753@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > No Tony, for sure this is not such an circuit. > > I've meausred the pieces of the wirewound resistor, it must had a > > resistance with approx 4-5 Kohms before. The Place for the FET is marked > > Ok, lets think for a second.. This wirewound resisotr is, perhaps, 4700 > ohms. And it burnt up spectacualrly, so perhaps it disipated at least 5W. > > Now, P=V^2/R, so V= sqrt(P*R). That implies a voltage across that > resistor of about 153V by my calculations. And a voltage that won't drop > even when supplying such a load. > > Are you sure? > > > GDS on the PCB and lat but not least the circuit isn't connected to the > > Capacitors on the mains side. > > What is it conencted to? Which side of the isulation barrier is it on > (mains or output side?) > > -tony Isolation barrier? Hmm, there isn't really one. If you look at this: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07/nt-10.jpg (http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07 for the directory index) You see the cable going from left top to the middle of the bottom PCB and left and right from its connector sits an opto coupler. This may be the barrier... The three wire cable from left bottom to upper rigt is going to the transormer behind the sheet metal on the top pcb, it looks to me like the drains from 2 FETs (on the heat sink) and 330V ... (don't know this exactly in the moment, the PSU is back in the drive again). The upper Board is looking like low voltage, the board at bottom to the high voltage part. Shadoo, which has two such drives and one of the defective with other problems will look closer at the part values for me, specially the resistance of this white resistor. I'll wait until he comes up with some infos before I dismount this all again. Wondering how his PSU would look from the inside.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 18 02:55:53 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:55:53 +0100 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8E26C1.7050308@neurotica.com> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> <4F8E21D2.8050703@snarc.net> <4F8E26C1.7050308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:28 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?I got the machine running RSTS/E last night, working on getting the > serial mux configured tonight. ?Pic in a moment. We're waiting! (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Under the Obama plan, NASA will spend $100 billion on human spaceflight over the next 10 years in order to accomplish nothing" -Robert Zubrin From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 03:05:54 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:05:54 +0200 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F8E0E0A.5040302@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F8C7BB2.3000308@neurotica.com> <4F8E0E0A.5040302@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 02:42, Toby Thain wrote: > > I have a little Duemilanove here. I'm used to 'bare metal' PIC18 coding. > Since you probably know: what's the quickest route to that on the Arduino, > given that my host is OS X/PPC... I was a little disturbed by the "just > press play" IDE. > > --Toby if you download the OS X Arduino package (the latest doesn't have PPC included of course, you have to grab 0009) it has all the avr tools in the app package. The IDE is a java package but all the backend is separate executables, standard precompiled gcc toolchain and avrdude. The Arduino board is nothing but the ATmega chip with a USB-serial interface, but the ATmega has a small bootloader preprogrammed. It is documented, and is what avrdude talks to. IIRC, after reset it looks if anyone is trying to download new code into the chip, if not, it'll execute what is in the chip already. There are plenty of tutorials on command-line use of the Arduino tools, geared towards C programming. I think going to assembly would not be a big step from there, if you want to. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 18 03:10:43 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking Grant Stockly Message-ID: Do you remember Grant Stockly of altairkit.com? Whatever happened to him? The site is still up and running, but it hasn't been updated since 2007. The forums there are choked with spam. I'd love to see what he's been up to and maybe buy a kit from him. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 18 03:11:57 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 01:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: straight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: <4F8E271A.2000103@neurotica.com> References: <4F8E271A.2000103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2012 09:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 >> using flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I have a >> hankering to run some numbers about it. > > I had been considering it, but I don't think I ever told anybody about > it. Either I did and forgot, you're a mind-reader, or somebody else had > the same idea. Well, I /am/ psychic. But it was also discussed here about a year ago. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 18 04:08:17 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:08:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places to >>> keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. >> >> This is my problem with fora in general. I prefer E-mail, the original >> "push medium." > > And mine. If I read every forum that applied to soemthing I had interest > in, then I'd have no time to do anything else (not even sleep). And I prefer NNTP ("Usenet"). Still wondering when classiccmp will be available there... NNTP is much more suited to fora like this one than SMTP. Christian From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 18 04:13:40 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:13:40 +0200 Subject: Seeking Grant Stockly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120418091340.GA32210@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 01:10:43AM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > > Do you remember Grant Stockly of altairkit.com? Whatever happened > to him? The site is still up and running, but it hasn't been updated > since 2007. The forums there are choked with spam. I'd love to see > what he's been up to and maybe buy a kit from him. Me too. I registered on the forums and posted some questions in late 2010. Since then the forums has filled up with spam, as you've seen. I'm told that Grand sometimes i very busy and therefore can be hard to get a hold of. Regards, POntus. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 05:35:54 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:35:54 -0300 Subject: paper tape trays References: Message-ID: <040f01cd1d4f$10fd73c0$020a14ac@tababook> >> http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5597/data.jpg > I'd be interested in a few of those, assuming I could afford them :-). Nothing that can't be 3D-Printed for a song on these days... From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Apr 18 07:09:07 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:09:07 +0200 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120418120907.GE26253@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:15:26 -0700 > Christian Kennedy wrote: > > > And, from my perspective, sitting on the wrong side of a damn ocean! > And, from my perspective, sitting on the _right_ side of a damn ocean! > It's about a 1 hour drive from my home to the location. But I am not > biding for it. I simply have no space left and due to medical reasons I > can't carry heavy machinery anymore. :-( > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} Ich helfe Dir tragen, auch wenn ich auch bereits 50 bin... Gru?, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Apr 18 07:10:30 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:10:30 +0200 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: <20120418075944.Horde.oNC6faQd9PdPjlhQtKxmAVA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418075944.Horde.oNC6faQd9PdPjlhQtKxmAVA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120418121030.GF26253@beast.freibergnet.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I already forewarned my wife that I would bought it if it stays > cheap - "are you serious?!?!?!" she responded ;) > > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > >its sitting at 101 euros atm > > > >On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Oliver Lehmann > >wrote: > >>Hi, > >> > >>maybe someone from europe has interes in this and is willing to > >>drive to Frankfurt to collect it. A fairly complete lokking > >>NOVA1200 system. > >> > >>http://www.ebay.de/itm/160781530347 > >> > >>He wrote, that on request he is also able to provide another > >>NOVA 1200 processor and two additional disk drives series 30. > >> > >>I wonder where the price will go... > >> > >>Greetings. > > ...my wife doesn't ask anymore ... *grin* Don't say I don't asked you if you really would marry it :-)) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Apr 18 07:48:55 2012 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:48:55 -0500 Subject: Seeking Grant Stockly In-Reply-To: <20120418091340.GA32210@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120418091340.GA32210@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <975A91AC-E7E1-46B3-AEBA-F5513E9C77BF@lunar-tokyo.net> On Apr 18, 2012, at 4:13 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 01:10:43AM -0700, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Do you remember Grant Stockly of altairkit.com? Whatever happened >> to him? The site is still up and running, but it hasn't been updated >> since 2007. The forums there are choked with spam. I'd love to see >> what he's been up to and maybe buy a kit from him. > > Me too. I registered on the forums and posted some questions in late > 2010. Since then the forums has filled up with spam, as you've seen. > > I'm told that Grand sometimes i very busy and therefore can be hard to > get a hold of. He does need to do something about all this spam. It's SEO spam, which is damaging to the internet as a whole and not just his forums. This spam is intended to poison search engine indexes and allow spammers to control search results. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 08:08:47 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:08:47 -0500 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F8EBCDF.1040800@gmail.com> On 04/17/2012 09:01 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I emailed Landon and I was prepared to buy the //e Platinum. I emailed him > Saturday, which was plenty of time before his Monday morning deadline. He > emailed me back today saying he already trashed it. Why the (BLEEP) would > anyone who claims to care about vintage computers do that??? And why have a > deadline if you're not going to keep it? I've seen that behavior quite a few times before, and it doesn't make any sense to me, either. It's a step beyond the "it's all about the money" types of people who threaten to destroy an item by a certain deadline if nobody will pay what they have decided it is worth. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 10:39:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:39:04 -0700 Subject: Quantex 650 / 2200 QIC tapedrive In-Reply-To: <20120418080221.Horde.D-F_I6Qd9PdPjljtwZtFaxA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <4F8C2D8A.4334.12A00C1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F8DAA02.9878.1EE83C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120418080221.Horde.D-F_I6Qd9PdPjljtwZtFaxA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4F8E7DA8.31701.80681@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Apr 2012 at 8:02, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > where is the reference between your 3M DCD-3 drive and my DEI or > Quantex drives? Just wondering if I missed something. My mention was that was to point out that not every tape drive with a 50-pin interface is QIC-02/36 or SCSI. The DCD-3 being the case in point--I'm not sure about your situation. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 18 10:46:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:46:15 -0600 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> <4F8E26B2.50104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: In article , David Riley writes: > True. All the clever 555 hacks in the world don't matter if your > product doesn't ship on time. ...or if you don't know the "clever 555 hacks". Visibility of arduino in the hobbyist space is HUGE. While the 555 has been around a long time and has it's own "hacker" tradition built around it, for whatever reason it isn't visible in the current hobbyist community. In 2 years of running a make group, people talk about Arduino all the time. I don't recall anyone ever having mentioned the 555. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 18 11:22:22 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:22:22 -0500 Subject: traight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8EEA3E.4050505@pico-systems.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: From: David Griffith To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: straight-8 miniaturised Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight PDP8 using flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I have a hankering to run some numbers about it. There's some guy in Germany who built a complete computer using discrete components, mostly resistors and bipolar transistors (no ICs), but all surface mount. It was quite small. I can't find the link now, but there are a bunch of homebrew computer projects linked to here: http://www.homebrewcpu.com/links.htm http://www.holmea.demon.co.uk/Links.htm Jon From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 18 12:26:46 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:26:46 +0200 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: <20120418120907.GE26253@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120418120907.GE26253@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120418192646.7496526f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:09:07 +0200 Holm Tiffe wrote: > Ich helfe Dir tragen, auch wenn ich auch bereits 50 bin... [He promises to help carrying the thing.] This still doesn't solve the space problem. Throwing out my PDP-11/34a or the DeVere 504 to make space for the Nova is no solution. I already moved some stuff like my Sun Enterprise 4500 "off site". -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Apr 18 12:45:46 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:45:46 +0200 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? Message-ID: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> Probably borderline for CCtalk, but does anyone have a proper programming manual for the Iomega ZIP drive ( 100MB atapi version ) ? I need to know exactly which ATAPI commands have been implemented. Jos Dreesen From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Apr 18 13:02:15 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:02:15 +0000 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C531@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Christian Corti Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:08 AM On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Perhaps. I'm not a big forum denizen (too many disconnected places >>>> to keep up with) so I rarely see help requests posted to them. >>> This is my problem with fora in general. I prefer E-mail, the >>> original "push medium." >> And mine. If I read every forum that applied to soemthing I had >> interest in, then I'd have no time to do anything else (not even >> sleep). > And I prefer NNTP ("Usenet"). Still wondering when classiccmp will be > available there... NNTP is much more suited to fora like this one than > SMTP. Administering NNTP is slightly more complicated than administering SMTP (speaking as one who has done both). There is the further issue of placement of a newsgroup within a hierarchy. The probable consensus among the Powers That Be would be that alt.folklore.computers already exists and that therefore a new group is unnecessary (never mind that a.f.c. has become a swamp of never-ending political and quasipolitical arguments, often started by some clown baiting a former DEC employee who cannot not rise to the bait). Mailing lists are like democracy: They're the worst way to do things, they're just better than any of the alternatives. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 18 13:28:10 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C531@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C531@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201204181828.OAA15958@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [Web "forum"s and a few of their problems] >> And I prefer NNTP ("Usenet"). > Administering NNTP is slightly more complicated than administering > SMTP (speaking as one who has done both). I'm not entirely sure I agree (and yes, I've done both too). In particular, nobody administers either SMTP or NNTP, but rather implementations thereof. Especially with SMTP, there are many implementations of widely varying degrees of administrative complexity. > There is the further issue of placement of a newsgroup within a > hierarchy. This is relevant only if you want to do this as part of Usenet. There's no reason - no technical reason, certainly - this has to be done; it could be carried as part of any desired top-level group, even one that does not exist on Usenet at large, by private agreement among its participants. (And, indeed, this list isn't really carried on "over SMTP"; it's carried on over email. SMTP is just one of many possible transports for that email. And, technically, even those who think they're using SMTP are most likely using some closely related protocol with subtle and undocumented differences from SMTP - most supposed-SMTP speakers violate SMTP's spec in various small ways.) The major advantage over mail over news as I see it is that hosting for email accounts which allow subscription to arbitrary private mailing lists is far commoner than hosting for netnews accounts which allow user-controlled carrying of arbitrary private groups. > The probable consensus among the Powers That Be would be that > alt.folklore.computers already exists and that therefore a new group > is unnecessary [...] Then the PTB need to be reminded that alt.* was created to get away from that kind of governance. *grump* /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 13:36:40 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:36:40 -0500 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C531@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C531@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F8F09B8.4080204@gmail.com> On 04/18/2012 01:02 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Mailing lists are like democracy: They're the worst way to do things, > they're just better than any of the alternatives. I don't mind them, or usenet for that matter. I just generally dislike web forums because of the high signal/noise ratio (layout cruft vs. actual information), poor layout (e.g. very few seem to manage to even thread messages), the need to have separate user credentials for each one, and the need to poll each one (vs. having all the information come to me under a common UI as with usenet and email). Kids today seem to think they're great though... :-) cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 18 13:40:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:40:06 -0400 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C531@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C531@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F8F0A86.7@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2012 02:02 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> And I prefer NNTP ("Usenet"). Still wondering when classiccmp will be >> available there... NNTP is much more suited to fora like this one than >> SMTP. > > Administering NNTP is slightly more complicated than administering SMTP > (speaking as one who has done both). There is the further issue of > placement of a newsgroup within a hierarchy. The probable consensus > among the Powers That Be would be that alt.folklore.computers already > exists and that therefore a new group is unnecessary (never mind that > a.f.c. has become a swamp of never-ending political and quasipolitical > arguments, often started by some clown baiting a former DEC employee who > cannot not rise to the bait). It's a little better nowadays, as much of the traffic has left Usenet as the knowledgeable people have died and the n00bs have flocked to web forums. One could set up alt.classiccmp, though, and I'm certain that'd be fine. I have a newsfeed here; I could do a mail->news gateway. FWIW, Thunderbird makes a really good newsreader. I was surprised at how good it is for that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 18 13:56:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:56:35 -0400 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> <4F8E21D2.8050703@snarc.net> <4F8E26C1.7050308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F8F0E63.30409@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2012 03:55 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> I got the machine running RSTS/E last night, working on getting the >> serial mux configured tonight. Pic in a moment. > > We're waiting! (; Hey, that pic was for Evan, not for you clods! ;) Hmm, ok. Here you go: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp1170-buildout-running.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 18 14:22:55 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 12:22:55 -0700 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> Jos Dreesen wrote: > does anyone have a proper programming manual for the Iomega ZIP drive > ( 100MB atapi version ) ? > > I need to know exactly which ATAPI commands have been implemented. I doubt that such a manual was published; it may not even have existed inside Iomega. By the time those were introduced, the OEM manuals for disk drives usually just stated that they were compliant with various standards (e.g., SFF-8020 and SFF-8070), and did not document the commands. The only sure way to know if a particular command is implemented on a drive is to issue the command to the drive and check the result. That was true even when real OEM manuals were available, as the OEM manuals often had errors and omissions. Eric From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 14:38:52 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:38:52 -0500 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: <20120418192646.7496526f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120418120907.GE26253@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120418192646.7496526f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: shiping would be wat aroiund 700bucks no? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 14:52:12 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:52:12 -0300 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <085001cd1d9c$eedc2180$020a14ac@tababook> Look for ZIP driver implementation on Amiga computers, AFAIR, it was done from scratch with no Iomega help. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? > Jos Dreesen wrote: >> does anyone have a proper programming manual for the Iomega ZIP drive ( >> 100MB atapi version ) ? >> >> I need to know exactly which ATAPI commands have been implemented. > > I doubt that such a manual was published; it may not even have existed > inside Iomega. By the time those were introduced, the OEM manuals for > disk drives usually just stated that they were compliant with various > standards (e.g., SFF-8020 and SFF-8070), and did not document the > commands. > > The only sure way to know if a particular command is implemented on a > drive is to issue the command to the drive and check the result. That was > true even when real OEM manuals were available, as the OEM manuals often > had errors and omissions. > > Eric > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 18 14:01:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 20:01:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: <20120418065011.GA6753@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Apr 18, 12 08:50:11 am Message-ID: > Isolation barrier? Hmm, there isn't really one. > If you look at this: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07/nt-10.jpg > (http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07 for the directory index) Dorry, I was using the term in a 'logical' rather than 'physical' sense. Computer PSUs always (I think that's true) have the outputs electrically isiolated fro mthe mains input. There is no direct electrical connection between them. Pwoer is transfered from the mains to the outputs by a double-would (separate priamry and secondary windings) transformer, contorl feedback is passed fro mthe outputs to the chopper transistor either by double-wound pulse transoformers or by optoisolators. I regard that electrical 'gap', bridged by the transformers and optoisolators as the 'isolation barrier'. It's often convenient to regard an SMPUS ans being in 2 halves, one on each side of this. The maisn side cotnains the mains rectifier, smoothing capacitors and chopper cirucit. The otuptu side cotnains the putput rectifiers, smoothign capaictors, crowbar, ay aditional regualtors, and the voltage feedback circuit. The chopper drive cirucit could be on either side of the barrier, depeneding on the design of the PSU. > > You see the cable going from left top to the middle of the bottom PCB > and left and right from its connector sits an opto coupler. > This may be the barrier... > > The three wire cable from left bottom to upper rigt is going to the > transormer behind the sheet metal on the top pcb, it looks to me like > the drains from 2 FETs (on the heat sink) and 330V ... (don't know this My guess is that this is the centre-tapped primary of the chopper transformer and that you have a push-pull chopper circuit (not unusual). > exactly in the moment, the PSU is back in the drive again). > The upper Board is looking like low voltage, the board at bottom to the > high voltage part. What is this resisotr, etc, connected to? If it really is a 4700 ohm one, it must have quite a voltage acorss it to burn it out. Is the FET associated with this resistor one of the 2 you have just mentioned as being connected to the chopper transformer (I susepct these are the choppers)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 18 14:26:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 20:26:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 18, 12 09:46:15 am Message-ID: > > > In article , > David Riley writes: > > > True. All the clever 555 hacks in the world don't matter if your > > product doesn't ship on time. > > ...or if you don't know the "clever 555 hacks". Of course that works both ways. All the Arduino hacks won't help if yopu don't know them. Or if you don't have an Arduino board to hand. Personally, I have plenty of 555s (and other common ICs) and no Arwduinos > > Visibility of arduino in the hobbyist space is HUGE. While the 555 > has been around a long time and has it's own "hacker" tradition built > around it, for whatever reason it isn't visible in the current > hobbyist community. > > In 2 years of running a make group, people talk about Arduino all the > time. I don't recall anyone ever having mentioned the 555. That is _exactly_ the problem I am referign to. For some odd reason these pre-build microcontrolelr goards turn up everywhere whereas using simpler compoentns, albeit ones you ahve to sodler together yourself, have been forgotten. I am not sure which is easier to learn and then to design with. Certainly I know that _I_ can design quite a complex circuit and have it soldered up long bewfore I could write the code (in any language) to do the same thing. But that's probalby becuase I've been doing that for 30 years or more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 18 13:19:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:19:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <7329235E9AE64151882494BE9A645069@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Apr 17, 12 11:27:37 pm Message-ID: > No need. For half of the $500 I'll drive to London, > borrow, scan it, and return it the next day ... I am not ssure I want to let it out of my sight ;-). That said, for $500 (or $250) I could be persuaded to stand in front of a photocopier... > > Please check the rest of the list first though to save further trips :-) I am almsot sure I don't. I have a good set of PC family TechRefs (PC, XT/Portanle, AT (several versions) and PCjr -- the only System one I am missing is the XT/286 AFAIK). And soem of the O&A stuff, I didnt;' buy all the supliements for various hard drives or obscure adapters though. But the only PS/2 manual I have is the 'Hardware Interface Technical Reference'. I certianly didn;'t buy any of the suplements for that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 18 13:23:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:23:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: from "Bogdan Barbu" at Apr 18, 12 03:00:16 am Message-ID: > I thought some people might prefer to keep the manuals for one reason > or another, which is why I said that I'd be fine with either a > physical or digital copy. Any idea if/when you will get around to it? There is no way that I can make a digital copy myself. I do not have a scanner or anything to conenct one to (and to avoid the comments I often get when I say things like that, I am quite happy as I am, I do not want a scanner. And I do not have the tools, test gear or skills to maintain a modern PC). However, I could probably be convinced to make a paper copy of it... > Not that there is any hurry. As I mentioend in another thread, life is hectica here at the momenbt with my father being in hospital. I have no idea how long that is going to go on for, but at the moment i have little time for such projects. The manual is quite thick too, about 170 A5 pages , -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 15:07:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:07:50 -0700 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Apr 2012 at 12:22, Eric Smith wrote: > The only sure way to know if a particular command is implemented on a > drive is to issue the command to the drive and check the result. That > was true even when real OEM manuals were available, as the OEM manuals > often had errors and omissions. I'd be surprised if the ATAPI commands didn't simply follow the SCSI commands. It seems to me that SCSI was essentially the reference for Iomega stuff. Since ATAPI essentially encapsulates the SCSI commands, it should be pretty easy to verify this. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 18 15:07:59 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:07:59 -0600 Subject: C. Gordon Bell architecture books Message-ID: There's almost nil about these books on amazon, so I'd like to hear some thoughts on these. In particular, I'd like to know what's different between the last two. "Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design" "Computer Structures: Principles and Examples" "Computer Structures: Readings and Examples" -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 18 15:09:12 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:09:12 -0600 Subject: book on VMS architecture? Message-ID: Note: I'm not asking about VAX hardware architecture, but about the software architecture of the VMS operating system. What were it's design goals? What were the design trade-offs made that resulted in the specific choices for VMS? Process scheduling? I/O? etc. Is there a good book on this subject? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 18 15:20:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120418130736.K76426@shell.lmi.net> > > But seriously, I'm interested in it if you do indeed have that. On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > 6280131 > SS34-0007-00 > March 18, 1986 > That said, there is no way I am selling it. Period. Not matter what you > offer me. Tony, Tony, Tony, . . . If he DOES need the original (legal evidence, or some such), what if he offered you a high-quality double sided bound Xerox of it, plus cash, plus some interesting hardware from that period or before? THAT would not seriously impact your need for the information content of it, while satisfying his need for the phyusical artifact. Of course, if all that he needs is the content, then I'm sure that appropriate compensation could be negotiated for getting it scanned. > I've got a couple of such EGA cards here, not in this machine I mostly skipped from CGA to VGA on PCs, but I ran EGA on all of my Compaq portables - the internal monitor was happy with EGA, and the Compq EGA board (and the adapter for ATI EGA) had the 6? 8? pin dual row connector in mid board. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 18 15:31:22 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204182031.QAA17862@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I do not have a scanner or anything to conenct one to (and to avoid > the comments I often get when I say things like that, I am quite > happy as I am, I do not want a scanner. And I do not have the tools, > test gear or skills to maintain a modern PC). It has nothing to do with any other reasons to not get a scanner (of which it sounds as though you have plenty), but you do not necessarily need a "modern PC". I've got at least one scanner which speaks SCSI...or is that enough to count as "modern" to you? :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 18 15:41:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:41:56 -0600 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I'd be surprised if the ATAPI commands didn't simply follow the SCSI > commands. It seems to me that SCSI was essentially the reference for > Iomega stuff. Since ATAPI essentially encapsulates the SCSI > commands, it should be pretty easy to verify this. I was thinking the same thing; I believe the parallel port zip drives were just SCSI zip drives with a special parallel port implementation of SCSI for the drive. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 15:51:34 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:51:34 +0100 Subject: C. Gordon Bell architecture books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Richard wrote: > There's almost nil about these books on amazon, so I'd like to hear > some thoughts on these. > > In particular, I'd like to know what's different between the last two. > > "Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design" > > > "Computer Structures: Principles and Examples" > > looks like the next but with dustwrapper > "Computer Structures: Readings and Examples" > > For his full publication list see http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/gbvita.htm Dave Caroline From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 18 16:00:21 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:00:21 -0700 Subject: C. Gordon Bell architecture books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8F2B65.1050309@bitsavers.org> On 4/18/12 1:07 PM, Richard wrote: > There's almost nil about these books on amazon, so I'd like to hear > some thoughts on these. > > In particular, I'd like to know what's different between the last two. > > "Computer Structures: Principles and Examples" > "Computer Structures: Readings and Examples" > Bell's books where he espouses his PMS method of describing computer architectures. They are essentially two different editions with different computer examples "Computer Engineering" is the canonical description of DEC hardware up to the VAX-11/780 Gordon has a copy on his MSFT web site, and there is a scan I did under dec/_Books From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 18 16:02:51 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:02:51 -0700 Subject: book on VMS architecture? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8F2BFB.1080309@bitsavers.org> On 4/18/12 1:09 PM, Richard wrote: > What were the design trade-offs made that resulted in the specific > choices for VMS? Process scheduling? I/O? etc. > It was an evolution of Cutler's RSX-11M with a lot of things added. The process and I/O model are pretty much straight out of RSX-11M. The various editions of "VMS Internals and Data Structures" talk about this a bit. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 18 16:14:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120418135941.B78225@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Probably borderline for CCtalk, but does anyone have a proper > programming manual for the Iomega ZIP drive ( 100MB atapi version ) ? > I need to know exactly which ATAPI commands have been implemented. Iomega ZIP drives were breaking several decades ago. "Click of death" On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > I doubt that such a manual was published; it may not even have existed > inside Iomega. By the time those were introduced, the OEM manuals for > disk drives usually just stated that they were compliant with various > standards (e.g., SFF-8020 and SFF-8070), and did not document the > commands. > The only sure way to know if a particular command is implemented on a > drive is to issue the command to the drive and check the result. That > was true even when real OEM manuals were available, as the OEM manuals > often had errors and omissions. On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd be surprised if the ATAPI commands didn't simply follow the SCSI > commands. It seems to me that SCSI was essentially the reference for > Iomega stuff. Since ATAPI essentially encapsulates the SCSI > commands, it should be pretty easy to verify this. Eric is right. Iomega didn't publish anything, and existence IN-HOUSE was dubious! Iomega was notorious for only implementing what THEY needed. On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Look for ZIP driver implementation on Amiga computers, AFAIR, it was > done from scratch with no Iomega help. THAT I can believe. Iomega's level of "tech support" was well known. I got a good deal on a new "Ditto" tape drive. The "extended" tapes from Verbatim would physically fit, but only give a tiny fraction of their rated capacity. it was not exactly the amount that I would expect from the size wrapping around a 2G limit, etc. So, I tried to contact Iomega about them. OK, how would you go about asking, "Do the Verbatim 3.2G tapes work in your drives?" Iomega's phone did not have options for asking ANY questions. Their phone system DID refer you to a Dial-A-Porn number, with a PROMISE that IF the problem (I had NOT yet stated it as a problem!) was due to a defect, then there would be a refund of some or all of the Dial-A-Porn charges. For years, I asked at the Iomega booth at Comdex. I got referred to the same phone system. One time, years later, when I asked, the guy went into a storage cabinet and gave me "updated drivers"! I installed the "updated drivers". The drive made a THUNK and never powered up again. I was apparently not the only person in the world dissatisfied with their "tech support". I wonder what happened to the class action suit and the regulatory actions? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 18 16:19:07 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:19:07 +0100 Subject: another one bites the dust... Message-ID: ... another classic service dies... first Gopher (Archie, etc) now Ceefax (teletext)! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceefax -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Under the Obama plan, NASA will spend $100 billion on human spaceflight over the next 10 years in order to accomplish nothing" -Robert Zubrin From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 18 16:33:58 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <201204182031.QAA17862@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204182031.QAA17862@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120418141624.L78225@shell.lmi.net> > > I do not have a scanner or anything to conenct one to (and to avoid > > the comments I often get when I say things like that, I am quite > > happy as I am, I do not want a scanner. And I do not have the tools, > > test gear or skills to maintain a modern PC). You don't consider a 5170 to be "modern"? It can run WindoZe 3.1! On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Mouse wrote: > It has nothing to do with any other reasons to not get a scanner (of > which it sounds as though you have plenty), but you do not necessarily > need a "modern PC". I've got at least one scanner which speaks > SCSI...or is that enough to count as "modern" to you? :) IF it were to be properly documented (THEY AREN'T.), Tony could easily create a "Centronics port" or SCSI on one of his existing machines. I'll bet that he has a "parallel port" on his PC/AT! But he does not want to OWN anything as undocumented as a "current" (post 1975?) scanner. I'm sure that with the right incentives (think CAREFULLY about what to offer!), he could arrange a few hours use of the dining room table, garage floor, or an extension cord and a picnic table on a nice day, for somebody else to drop by with a portable scanner and a laptop. I have a "Scan Wand" that is about 1" x 1" x 12" that does a mediocre job of battery powered scanning onto MicroSD. Surely Tony would let that into his house for an hour. Or ride along to somewhere where there is a good scanner available for use. Frankly, I think that Tony should accept one of the offered "free" scanners, and then discard ALL of the circuitry within it, and build a control interface to talk directly to the CCD and mechanical components. THEN he could have a properly designed and properly documented scanner. WITH an appropriate interface. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 18 16:36:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120418143449.M78225@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Richard wrote: > I was thinking the same thing; I believe the parallel port zip drives > were just SCSI zip drives with a special parallel port implementation > of SCSI for the drive. That seems a reasonable assumption. Somewhere in the rubble, I have a few ZIP (actually "ZIP PLUS") drives that claim to be parallel AND SCSI using the same connector. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 16:45:39 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:45:39 -0400 Subject: Web forums GOML Re: Commodore PET 2001 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <4F8F09B8.4080204@gmail.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80C531@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F8F09B8.4080204@gmail.com> Message-ID: >. I just generally dislike web forums because of the high signal/noise ratio (layout cruft vs. actual information), poor layout ... Cripes, what kind of web forums do you guys hang out at? The ones I visit for my wildly varying interests do not have these problems at all. If anything, this list has the worst noise. -- Will From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Apr 18 16:50:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 23:50:49 +0200 Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: References: <20120418065011.GA6753@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120418215049.GA75890@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > Isolation barrier? Hmm, there isn't really one. > > If you look at this: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07/nt-10.jpg > > (http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07 for the directory index) > > > Dorry, I was using the term in a 'logical' rather than 'physical' sense. > > Computer PSUs always (I think that's true) have the outputs electrically > isiolated fro mthe mains input. There is no direct electrical connection > between them. Pwoer is transfered from the mains to the outputs by a > double-would (separate priamry and secondary windings) transformer, > contorl feedback is passed fro mthe outputs to the chopper transistor > either by double-wound pulse transoformers or by optoisolators. > > I regard that electrical 'gap', bridged by the transformers and > optoisolators as the 'isolation barrier'. It's often convenient to regard > an SMPUS ans being in 2 halves, one on each side of this. Yes, I meant this. > The maisn side > cotnains the mains rectifier, smoothing capacitors and chopper cirucit. > The otuptu side cotnains the putput rectifiers, smoothign capaictors, > crowbar, ay aditional regualtors, and the voltage feedback circuit. The > chopper drive cirucit could be on either side of the barrier, depeneding > on the design of the PSU. Tony, I'm repairing switch mode PSUs for at least 20 years now :-) > > > > > You see the cable going from left top to the middle of the bottom PCB > > and left and right from its connector sits an opto coupler. > > This may be the barrier... > > > > The three wire cable from left bottom to upper rigt is going to the > > transormer behind the sheet metal on the top pcb, it looks to me like > > the drains from 2 FETs (on the heat sink) and 330V ... (don't know this > > My guess is that this is the centre-tapped primary of the chopper > transformer and that you have a push-pull chopper circuit (not unusual). Yes, think this too. > > > > exactly in the moment, the PSU is back in the drive again). > > The upper Board is looking like low voltage, the board at bottom to the > > high voltage part. > > What is this resisotr, etc, connected to? If it really is a 4700 ohm one, > it must have quite a voltage acorss it to burn it out. Is the FET > associated with this resistor one of the 2 you have just mentioned as > being connected to the chopper transformer (I susepct these are the > choppers)? > > -tony The two I've mentiones are on the heat sink, the Resitro is connected to the thrid lonly one. I only think that it was an IRF840 like the other two, since the readable rest from the imprint was similar to the two on the heatsink. The Cooling fin from this Transistor hat a peace of Isolation tube pulled over. Replaced it with an 2SK2545 from the parts box. I'm still warit for the correct values from the parts from shadoo, he would take a look for me (this weekens he hope). I've only estimated the resistance from the white resistor, the FET and measured the Zeners with my curve tracer to 9V und 43V still working. There was almost nothing to read anymore. There is no SMPS controller in there, that Unit is build from diskrete parts and an LM358 which makes it not really easier. FET Drivers are a 2N2222 and his complementary type (somithing with 55?) and a phase splitting driver transformer. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 18 16:53:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:53:20 -0400 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <20120418143449.M78225@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> <20120418143449.M78225@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F8F37D0.2070109@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2012 05:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Somewhere in the rubble, I have a few ZIP (actually "ZIP PLUS") drives > that claim to be parallel AND SCSI using the same connector. Please let me know if you ever want to unload those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 16:56:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:56:30 -0400 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> <4F8E26B2.50104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > While the 555 > has been around a long time and has it's own "hacker" tradition built > around it, for whatever reason it isn't visible in the current > hobbyist community. The 555 is starting to be not very visible in industry, either. There are very few applications these days that are so simple - there always seems to be some sort of microprocessor hanging around that can be in some ways utilized - with the advantage of not needing the 555s resistors and capacitors and all the issues they bring. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 18 16:59:02 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <20120418135941.B78225@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> <20120418135941.B78225@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201204182159.RAA19353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Iomega's level of "tech support" was well known. Hah. I once asked them - more to see what they'd say than anything else - why they advertised 100 megs when everything else tells me 96 megs. (The actual answer: real megabytes versus disk-manufacturer megabytes.) They told me, formatting overhead. Um, only 4% overhead? You guys use ECC that crappy?? A few years later, I communicated (email? voice? I forget) with someone who actually worked on them. The formatting overhead figure he gave me was a much more believable 25-30 percent. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 17:34:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:34:37 -0700 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <20120418143449.M78225@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, , <20120418143449.M78225@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F8EDF0D.4848.18477FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Apr 2012 at 14:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Richard wrote: > That seems a reasonable assumption. > > Somewhere in the rubble, I have a few ZIP (actually "ZIP PLUS") drives > that claim to be parallel AND SCSI using the same connector. That matches with what I've discovered on some (but not all) parallel ZIP drives--the parallel version is a SCSI port replicator attached to a standard SCSI drive. This does not include all parallel SCSI ZIP drives, however. --Chuck From martin at shackspace.de Wed Apr 18 17:44:45 2012 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:44:45 +0200 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120418224445.GA17094@helpdesk.bera.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> Jos Dreesen: > Probably borderline for CCtalk, but does anyone have a proper programming manual for the Iomega ZIP drive ( 100MB atapi version ) ? > > I need to know exactly which ATAPI commands have been implemented. In general, this is a goog starting point for ATA/ATAPI: http://www.ata-atapi.com/ http://www.ata-atapi.com/hist.html Some of the sff-stuff can be found here: ftp://ftp.seagate.com/pub/sff/ And allways keep in mind what Fred said. hth, Martin From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Apr 18 17:48:37 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 23:48:37 +0100 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9E70461D4F704453A54F7B574FFC00E3@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > I am not ssure I want to let it out of my sight ;-). That > said, for $500 > (or $250) I could be persuaded to stand in front of a photocopier... It's that valuable :-) I was only half-offering, as I can't believe that a digital copy really is worth $500 to anyone. I'd settle for fuel really. I assume you don't have a photocopier for the same reason you don't have a scanner. In which case you'll be using someone else's equipment. I've never looked too closely at the economics of photocopying, but it's going to cost 4-5p per page (assuming that the cost of home printing on a laser printer is any guide). In which case I'd guess that it's almost the same cost to go to a high street copying emporium and have them scan it properly straight to a PDF. (I'd offer to bring a sheet-feed scanner along and scan it in your presence, but no doubt someone at work would notice its absence :-)) > I am almsot sure I don't. I have a good set of PC family > TechRefs (PC, > XT/Portanle, AT (several versions) and PCjr -- the only > System one I am > missing is the XT/286 AFAIK). And soem of the O&A stuff, I > didnt;' buy > all the supliements for various hard drives or obscure > adapters though. > But the only PS/2 manual I have is the 'Hardware Interface Technical > Reference'. I certianly didn;'t buy any of the suplements for that. One of these days someone will throw out a decent scanner with sheet feed that fits in the boot of a car ... Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 18 17:55:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8EDF0D.4848.18477FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, , <20120418143449.M78225@shell.lmi.net> <4F8EDF0D.4848.18477FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120418155204.L80029@shell.lmi.net> > > Somewhere in the rubble, I have a few ZIP (actually "ZIP PLUS") drives > > that claim to be parallel AND SCSI using the same connector. On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That matches with what I've discovered on some (but not all) parallel > ZIP drives--the parallel version is a SCSI port replicator attached > to a standard SCSI drive. This does not include all parallel SCSI > ZIP drives, however. In the "100M" ZIP drives (I don't know from other sizes), there was "ZIP parallel", "ZIP SCSI", and "ZIP Plus parallel & SCSI" (at a slightly higher price) I don't doubt that could have all been SCSI internally, with a parallel adapter, without it, or with an aut0-switching one. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com i From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 18 18:02:43 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another one bites the dust... In-Reply-To: from John Many Jars at "Apr 18, 12 10:19:07 pm" Message-ID: <201204182302.q3IN2hN915532146@floodgap.com> > ... another classic service dies... first Gopher (Archie, etc) now > Ceefax (teletext)! Who said Gopher was dead? There are more servers now than there were five years ago. gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ Gopher is clearly a niche access method but it exists as a semi-darknet still. Google doesn't own us (yet). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All things are possible, except skiing through a revolving door. ----------- From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 18 18:12:51 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:12:51 +0100 Subject: another one bites the dust... In-Reply-To: <201204182302.q3IN2hN915532146@floodgap.com> References: <201204182302.q3IN2hN915532146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> ... another classic service dies... first Gopher (Archie, etc) now >> Ceefax (teletext)! > > Who said Gopher was dead? There are more servers now than there were five > years ago. > > ? ? ? ?gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ > > Gopher is clearly a niche access method but it exists as a semi-darknet > still. Google doesn't own us (yet). Right, you're tempting me to write a gopher interface for something... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Under the Obama plan, NASA will spend $100 billion on human spaceflight over the next 10 years in order to accomplish nothing" -Robert Zubrin From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 18:23:40 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:23:40 +0100 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> <4F8E26B2.50104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4F8F4CFC.4000902@gmail.com> On 18/04/2012 22:56, William Donzelli wrote: >> While the 555 >> has been around a long time and has it's own "hacker" tradition built >> around it, for whatever reason it isn't visible in the current >> hobbyist community. Its odd really. As some of you may have notice I am a Radio, and so chat to other hams locally on a daily basis. Any way a fellow ham (and friend) was discussing building a simple control panel with discrete logic. I suggested he used an 8-pin PIC chip but he said no it was simpler in real logic. I said I could already detect scope creep and a PIC would give more room for this. Well after a week when the simple chip count was up to 4 just to run the buttons, he reluctantly swapped to a PIC chip. It was cheaper, and gave a lower component count. Sadly as this was just a one-off it extended the project like cycle as writing the code took a while. > The 555 is starting to be not very visible in industry, either. There are > very few applications these days that are so simple - there always seems to > be some sort of microprocessor hanging around that can be in some ways > utilized - with the advantage of not needing the 555s resistors and > capacitors and all the issues they bring. Not to mention the manufacturing spread and slight differences between different suppliers chips > -- > Will Dave G4UMG From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 18 18:32:39 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another one bites the dust... In-Reply-To: from John Many Jars at "Apr 19, 12 00:12:51 am" Message-ID: <201204182332.q3INWdQJ12320854@floodgap.com> > > Who said Gopher was dead? There are more servers now than there were five > > years ago. > > > > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ > > > > Gopher is clearly a niche access method but it exists as a semi-darknet > > still. Google doesn't own us (yet). > > Right, you're tempting me to write a gopher interface for something... It's such a simple protocol to implement, too. The problem with Ceefax/Videotex is all the backend stuff you have to have. But I just discovered www.ceefax.tv, which is neat. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Artificial intelligence is no match for natural idiocy. -------------------- From martin at shackspace.de Wed Apr 18 18:33:52 2012 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 01:33:52 +0200 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120418233352.GA19840@helpdesk.bera.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> Jos Dreesen: > Probably borderline for CCtalk, but does anyone have a proper programming manual for the Iomega ZIP drive ( 100MB atapi version ) ? > > I need to know exactly which ATAPI commands have been implemented. Seems like there were three different ATAPI versions: http://pw2.netcom.com/~deepone/zipjaz/atapi.html Probably you need to distinguish between them by testing all versions. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 18 18:46:21 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:46:21 -0700 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F8F524D.7070405@brouhaha.com> Eric Smith wrote: > The only sure way to know if a particular command is implemented on a > drive is to issue the command to the drive and check the result. That > was true even when real OEM manuals were available, as the OEM manuals > often had errors and omissions. Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd be surprised if the ATAPI commands didn't simply follow the SCSI > commands. It seems to me that SCSI was essentially the reference for > Iomega stuff. Since ATAPI essentially encapsulates the SCSI commands, > it should be pretty easy to verify this. Certainly, but you still can't entirely assume that any particular SCSI command is implemented, because even the *mandatory* SCSI commands have been absent from some devices. (Of course, those devices aren't truly SCSI-compliant, but there aren't any "SCSI Police" to haul the vendor off to jail.) Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 18 18:43:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> <4F8E26B2.50104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20120418164227.N80029@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, William Donzelli wrote: > The 555 is starting to be not very visible in industry, either. There are Could a group of Arduinos be wired up to emulate a 555? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 18 18:44:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <201204182159.RAA19353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch> <20120418135941.B78225@shell.lmi.net> <201204182159.RAA19353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120418164348.I80029@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Mouse wrote: > I once asked them - more to see what they'd say than anything else - > why they advertised 100 megs when everything else tells me 96 megs. > (The actual answer: real megabytes versus disk-manufacturer megabytes.) > They told me, formatting overhead. I've actually had people tell me, "the space taken up for the Directory". From jws at jwsss.com Wed Apr 18 19:15:18 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:15:18 -0700 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8F524D.7070405@brouhaha.com> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> <4F8F524D.7070405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F8F5916.7080408@jwsss.com> at one time there sort of was. I worked for Peer Protocols, and one of the things we sold was a pretty fully implemented target and initiator model test system. We had a card set that could do up to the ultra. We never went to all the varieties above the original push on this, couldn't get the scsi chips from LSI which were not special purposed so we could use them as general interfaces. Anyway, vendors would buy our systems to run as either initiators or targets. They had full source and could customize them to emulate any special features they had (such as ID info etc.) I know at one time we could break anything, but the degree to which it was broken was the key. Zadian Systems also did a lot of this as a competitor, but later abandoned our little field and went off into making manufacturing test equipment. Ancot was there, but never did the verification and development tools we did. I guess the proof of the wisdom of the market selection is that both Ancot and Zadian still are small bits of big corporations, and Peer went away. However we did serve to help get all of the systems to work better than if there were no such tools. I might mention the tools went for $25,000 and up for the development systems (you frequently needed two) and our capture tool was $5000 for the cheap one, and $12,000 for the ultra capable one. Ancot mastered the capture and analysis business and basically ran us out, and that was a lucrative line we lost out on eventually. BTW the thing we broke the most was the Queuing. I remember one time we tested almost 20 common drives and broke all of them. The problem showed up when Linux first implemented queuing and actually made the kernel use it. Most of the other vendors such as Sun programmed around the shortcomings in their code, but Linux let it all hang out. Jim On 4/18/2012 4:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > (Of course, those devices aren't truly SCSI-compliant, but there > aren't any "SCSI Police" to haul the vendor off to jail.) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 18 19:12:37 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 HD emulator... Message-ID: Some here may find this useful: http://www.vecoven.com/trs80/trs80.html He seems to be emulating a WD1010 drive controller. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 19:37:25 2012 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:37:25 -0700 Subject: another one bites the dust... In-Reply-To: References: <201204182302.q3IN2hN915532146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: from wikipedia As of 2012[update], there are approximately 160 gopher servers indexed by Veronica-2 ,[15] reflecting a slow growth from 2007 when there were fewer than 100, [16] although many are infrequently updated. Within these servers Veronica indexed approximately 2.5 million unique selectors. A handful of new servers are set up every year by hobbyists ? over 50 have been set up and added to Floodgap's list since 1999.[17]A snapshot of Gopherspace as it was in 2007 was circulated on BitTorrent and is still available.[18]Due to the simplicity of the Gopher protocol, setting up new servers or adding Gopher support to browsers is often done in a tongue in cheekmanner, principally on April Fools' Day .[19] [20] On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 4:12 PM, John Many Jars < john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Cameron Kaiser > wrote: > >> ... another classic service dies... first Gopher (Archie, etc) now > >> Ceefax (teletext)! > > > > Who said Gopher was dead? There are more servers now than there were five > > years ago. > > > > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ > > > > Gopher is clearly a niche access method but it exists as a semi-darknet > > still. Google doesn't own us (yet). > > Right, you're tempting me to write a gopher interface for something... > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > > "Under the Obama plan, NASA will spend $100 billion on human > spaceflight over the next 10 years in order to accomplish nothing" > > -Robert Zubrin > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 18 19:47:13 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 20:47:13 -0400 Subject: C. Gordon Bell architecture books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8F6091.2050700@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/04/12 4:07 PM, Richard wrote: > There's almost nil about these books on amazon, so I'd like to hear > some thoughts on these. > > In particular, I'd like to know what's different between the last two. > > "Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design" > > Online here: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/CGB%20Files/Computer%20Engineering%207809%20c.pdf > "Computer Structures: Principles and Examples" > > http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/computer_structures_principles_and_examples/contents.html Contents in Brief Part 1 FUNDAMENTALS 1 - Abstraction and Notation 1.1 Computer Classes and Evolution 1.2 Levels and Abstractions 1.3 PMS Notation 1.4 An Introduction to ISPS 2 - The Computer Space 2.5 Function and Performance 2.6 Structure 3 - Computers of Historical Significance 3.7 The Manchester Mark I 3.8 Structural Levels of the PDP-8 3.9 Design of the B 5000 System 3.10 One Level Storage System Part 2 REGIONS OF COMPUTER SPACE 1 - Microprogram-Based Processors 1.11 Microprogramming and the Design of the Control Circuits in an Electronic Digital Computer 1.12 Microprogramming the IBM System/360 Model 30 1.13 Bit-Sliced Microprocessor of the Am2900 Family: The AM2901/2909 1.14 The Am2903/2910 1.15 A PDP-8 Implemented from AMD Bit-Sliced Microprocessors 2 - Memory Hierarchies and Multiple Processes 2.16 Burroughs' B6500/B7500 Stack Mechanism 2.17 An Outline of the ICL 2900 Series System Architecture 3 - Concurrency: Single-Processor Systems 3.18 The IBM System/360 Model 91: Machine Philosophy and Instruction Handling 3.19 An Efficient Algorithm for Exploiting Multiple Arithmetic Units 3.20 The Illiac IV System 3.21 A Productive Implementation of an Associative Array Processor: STARAN 4 - Multiple-Processor Systems 4.22 The C.mmp/Hydra Project: An Architectural Overview 4.23 Pluribus: An Operational Fault-Tolerant Multiprocessor 5 - Networks 5.24 The Interface Message Processor for the ARPA Computer Network 5.25 ALOHA Packet Broadcasting: A Retrospect 5.26: Ethernet: Distributed Packet Switching for Local Computer Networks 6 - Fault-Tolerant Systems 6.27 The STAR (Self-Testing And Repairing) Computer: An Investigation of the Theory and Practice of Fault-Tolerant Computer Design 6.28 Fault Tolerant Design of Local ESS Processors 6.29 The Tandem 16: A Fault-Tolerant Computing System 7 - Language-Based Computers 7.30 The SYMBOL Computer 7.31 A Dual-Processor Desk-Top Computer: The HP 9845A 7.32 The IBM System/38 8 - Personal Computing Systems 8.33 Alto: A Personal Computer Part 3 COMPUTER CLASSES 1 - Monolithic Microcomputers 1.34 TMS1000/1200: Chip Architecture and Operation 1.35 PIC1650: Chip Architecture and Operation 2 - Microcomputers 2.36 Trends in Microcomputers 2.37 Intel Microprocessors: 8008 to 8086 3 - Minicomputers 3.38 A New Architecture for Mini-Computers: The DEC PDP-11 3.39 Implementation and Performance Evaluation of the PDP-11 Family 4 - Maxicomputers 4.40 The Structure of System/360, Part I: Outline of the Logical Structure 4.41 The Structure of System/360, Part II: System Implementations 4.42 VAX-11/780: A Virtual Address Extension to the DEC PDP-11 Family 4.43 Parallel Operation in the Control Data 6600 4.44 The CRAY-1 Computer System 4.45 The TI ASC: A Highly Modular and Flexible Super Computer Architecture Part 4 FAMILY RANGE, COMPATIBILITY AND EVOLUTION 1 - Microcomputer Families 2 - Minicomputer Families 2.46 The PDP-8 Family 2.47 The Evolution of the PDP-11 3 - Evolution of HP Calculators 3.48 The HP Model 9100A Computing Calculator 3.49 THe HP 9810/20/30 Series 3.50: Hewlett-Packard Calculator Architectures 4 - Evolution of Burroughs Computers 5 - The System/360 and System/370 Family 5.51 Architecture of the IBM System/370 5.52 The IBM System/360, /370, 3030, and 4300: A Series of Planned Machines That Span a Wide Performance Range 6 - Evolution of CDC/Cray Computers > "Computer Structures: Readings and Examples" > > http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html Also see: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/digital/decmuseum.htm --Toby From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 18 20:19:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:19:04 -0700 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: <4F8F524D.7070405@brouhaha.com> References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F8F524D.7070405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F8F0598.29881.21B09B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Apr 2012 at 16:46, Eric Smith wrote: > > Certainly, but you still can't entirely assume that any particular > SCSI command is implemented, because even the *mandatory* SCSI > commands have been absent from some devices. (Of course, those > devices aren't truly SCSI-compliant, but there aren't any "SCSI > Police" to haul the vendor off to jail.) There were indeed times that I wished that the "SCSI Police" existed. SCSI streamer drives being most of those times. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 18 20:30:13 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another one bites the dust... In-Reply-To: <201204182302.q3IN2hN915532146@floodgap.com> References: <201204182302.q3IN2hN915532146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> ... another classic service dies... first Gopher (Archie, etc) now >> Ceefax (teletext)! > > Who said Gopher was dead? There are more servers now than there were five > years ago. > > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ > > Gopher is clearly a niche access method but it exists as a semi-darknet > still. Google doesn't own us (yet). See gopher://gopher.feedle.net/ for the Interactive Fiction Archive in Gophervision. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 18 20:34:32 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another one bites the dust... In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Apr 18, 12 06:30:13 pm" Message-ID: <201204190134.q3J1YWY415532176@floodgap.com> > >> ... another classic service dies... first Gopher (Archie, etc) now > >> Ceefax (teletext)! > > > > Who said Gopher was dead? There are more servers now than there were five > > years ago. > > > > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ > > > > Gopher is clearly a niche access method but it exists as a semi-darknet > > still. Google doesn't own us (yet). > > See gopher://gopher.feedle.net/ for the Interactive Fiction Archive in > Gophervision. Send me a display string so we can get this bad boy in Veronica (offlist). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When relatives are outlawed, only outlaws will have inlaws. ---------------- From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 19 00:20:53 2012 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 01:20:53 -0400 Subject: book on VMS architecture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What were the design trade-offs made that resulted in the specific > choices for VMS? Process scheduling? I/O? etc. > > Is there a good book on this subject? There are quite a few, depending on which version of VMS you're interested in. Ruth Goldenberg was the author or a co-author on most of the VMS internals books I've seen. A good place to start is a search for anything she's written. BLS From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 19 00:36:11 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:36:11 -0700 Subject: book on VMS architecture? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F8FA44B.7010502@brouhaha.com> blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: >> What were the design trade-offs made that resulted in the specific >> choices for VMS? Process scheduling? I/O? etc. >> >> Is there a good book on this subject? > There are quite a few, depending on which version of VMS you're > interested in. Ruth Goldenberg was the author or a co-author > on most of the VMS internals books I've seen. A good place to > start is a search for anything she's written. > > I haven't seen that specific book, but in general such books usually tell what the software does, but not the engineering trade-offs that led to it being done that way as opposed to some other way, which seems to be what was requested. From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Apr 18 06:59:45 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:59:45 -0400 Subject: straight-8 miniaturised In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120418115945.GA17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 06:56:05PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > > Who was the one with the wacky idea of building a Straight-Eight > PDP8 using flipchip cards populated with surface-mount parts? I > have a hankering to run some numbers about it. > I counted the components during my straight 8 restoration. Information is in the second paragraph on page URL below along with spreadsheet used. Spreadsheet also has DF32 part counts. Survey has margin of error of +- 1%. http://www.pdp8online.com/straight8/functional_restore.shtml From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Apr 18 07:01:17 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:01:17 -0400 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 08:56:12PM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i'm going to be venturing down the road of making some is anyone > interested in any > If they don't end up being too expensive I'd be interested. From mark at msanet.co.uk Wed Apr 18 14:13:33 2012 From: mark at msanet.co.uk (Mark Allen) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 20:13:33 +0100 Subject: Reference Disc for a Research Machines PC-386 Message-ID: Hi You wouldn't have a copy of the reference disks for your rm pc-386 as I have one and am unable to setup it up as I cant get into the bios etc Any help would be much appreciated Cheers mark From jeffj at panix.com Wed Apr 18 18:56:17 2012 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: help requested: ISA to PCMCIA slots Message-ID: Dear cctech folks; I have 2: ISA card controllers for PCMCIA cards that I want to get running again. I need the software & just the essentials of the manual (switch & jumper settings). 1) DATABOOK ThinCard DRIVE model TMD-100-03 rev C 2) 16 bit ISA card: MMCD-D2 Rev 2.0 ?? 1994 SCM Microsystem GMBH Photos are here: http://ferretronix.com/march/thincard/ thanks in advance Jeff Jonas jeffj at panix.com From microcode at zoho.com Thu Apr 19 01:36:18 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 06:36:18 +0000 Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: <4F8F0E63.30409@neurotica.com> References: <201204161858.q3GIw9Ah035336@billy.ezwind.net> <4F8C7BF5.30000@gmail.com> <4F8C8B99.4090907@neurotica.com> <4F8E21D2.8050703@snarc.net> <4F8E26C1.7050308@neurotica.com> <4F8F0E63.30409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1242852556-1334817341-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-192314591-@b1.c1.bise3.blackberry> Nice! -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:56:35 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Official Spring cleaning sale On 04/18/2012 03:55 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> I got the machine running RSTS/E last night, working on getting the >> serial mux configured tonight. Pic in a moment. > > We're waiting! (; Hey, that pic was for Evan, not for you clods! ;) Hmm, ok. Here you go: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp1170-buildout-running.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 03:28:06 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:28:06 -0300 Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? References: <4F8EFDCA.5060909@bluewin.ch>, <4F8F148F.4030701@brouhaha.com> <4F8EBCA6.19105.FE1643@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0a5f01cd1e06$6ff337e0$020a14ac@tababook> > I was thinking the same thing; I believe the parallel port zip drives > were just SCSI zip drives with a special parallel port implementation > of SCSI for the drive. It is. You can see in the installed driver something like "Iomega SCSI Bridge" or something like that. Years ago... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 03:29:46 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:29:46 -0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update References: <201204182031.QAA17862@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120418141624.L78225@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0a6e01cd1e06$9ecbb600$020a14ac@tababook> > I'm sure that with the right incentives (think CAREFULLY about what to > offer!), he could arrange a few hours use of the dining room table, garage > floor, or an extension cord and a picnic table on a nice day, for somebody > else to drop by with a portable scanner and a laptop. I have a "Scan > Wand" that is about 1" x 1" x 12" that does a mediocre job of battery > powered scanning onto MicroSD. Surely Tony would let that into his house > for an hour. Or ride along to somewhere where there is a good scanner > available for use. Copy shop, anyone? From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 19 06:36:37 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 07:36:37 -0400 Subject: book on VMS architecture? Message-ID: [VMS Internals Books e.g. Kenah Goldenberg & Bate] > I haven't seen that specific book, but in general such books usually > tell what the software does, but not the engineering trade-offs that led > to it being done that way as opposed to some other way, which seems to > be what was requested. At least a little of that does shine through. "The Hitchiker's Guide to VMS" has many tidbits up through the V5 days. Bruce Ellis, 1990. And even better it's enjoyable. There were various detailed things in DTJ, although those typically represent more of the corporate mongolian-horde design-by-committee approach to systems programming, rather than anything you'd want to actually emulate. Tim. From djg at pdp8online.com Thu Apr 19 06:55:04 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 07:55:04 -0400 Subject: Raised flooring available Message-ID: <201204191155.q3JBt4Ev001397@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Its in NE Philadelphia. You must come deinstall and haul away. Time is very short. If you are interested and can come and remove very soon email me and I will give you the contact information. I have no more knowledge, just forwarding the info. It's unclear if they will want some $ for it. From jeffj at panix.com Thu Apr 19 07:02:27 2012 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 08:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? Message-ID: From: Jos Dreesen Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? > Probably borderline for CCtalk, > but does anyone have a proper programming manual for the > Iomega ZIP drive ( 100MB atapi version ) ? > I need to know exactly which ATAPI commands have been implemented. To paraphrase a famous Jedi knight "use the source, Luke!" The Linux driver source code is probably the closest thing to documentation This mentions what parts to look for: http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/ZIP-Drive.html (sorry I don't have a better URL. I've rarely needed to find Linux source code) I never allowed ZIP drives in my house but I tried using 1 gig JAZ drives. I ruined them by trying the SCSI low-level format command on them. The cartridge was unuseable after that. I suspect ZIP drives & cartridges are similar: DO NOT LOW LEVEL FORMAT! -- jeffj From microcode at zoho.com Thu Apr 19 08:44:40 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 13:44:40 +0000 Subject: [NO REWARD WHATSOEVER] Looking for IBM, ANSI, and Sun doc Message-ID: <201204191344.q3JDikb0038718@billy.ezwind.net> I figured I should ask now while everybody is in a helpful mood :-) Does anybody have scans of any or all of the following? IBM 01. MVS/ESA Component Diagnosis and Logic: EXCP Processor (LY28-1477) 02. LY28-1487 03. LY28-1488 04. LC28-1166-5 05. SA22-7085-0 System/370 Extended Architecture Principles of Operation 06. SA22-7085-1 System/370 Extended Architecture Principles of Operation 07. SA22-7200 System/370 Enterprise Systems Architecture Principles of Operation ANSI American National Standards Institute ANSI X3. 74-1987 (PL/I Subset G) Sun UltraSPARC-IIIi Programmer's Reference Manual which is referenced here: http://hg.genunix.org/onnv-gate.hg/file/48f2dbca79a2/usr/src/lib/libcpc/sparc/conf_ultra.c and here: http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E19683-01/816-1681/6m83631lh/index.html although without any pointers or links. I have the U/S IIIi User's Manual but this does not seem to be the one the above doc is referencing. No reward except my gratitude and promise to search my archives for my pals in need! However Al is making it pretty tough to have anything unique! Many thanks to Al for running bitsavers and everybody for contributing. I hope archive.org sticks around long enough for us to scrounge whatever is left on Sun but it's getting thin. I haven't been able to get to the open firmware site on playground.sun.com and the official site is running a business on openfirmware and isn't exactly giving out doc. So much for open. Thank you. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 13:21:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 19:21:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <20120418130736.K76426@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 18, 12 01:20:17 pm Message-ID: > > > > But seriously, I'm interested in it if you do indeed have that. > On Tue, 17 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > 6280131 > > SS34-0007-00 > > March 18, 1986 > > That said, there is no way I am selling it. Period. Not matter what you > > offer me. > > Tony, Tony, Tony, . . . > If he DOES need the original (legal evidence, or some such), Well, I supposed tha, logically, I would have to tell him to look elsewhere :-) > what if he offered you a high-quality double sided bound Xerox of it, > plus cash, > plus some interesting hardware from that period or before? Although that would be tempting... However, no such offer has been made, and I suspect the OP wants the content rather than the physical document, so this is academic. > > I've got a couple of such EGA cards here, not in this machine > > I mostly skipped from CGA to VGA on PCs, but I ran EGA on all of my Compaq Of ocurse I am still running CGA and MDA boards. At tleast those I can repair :-) > portables - the internal monitor was happy with EGA, and the Compq EGA > board (and the adapter for ATI EGA) had the 6? 8? pin dual row connector > in mid board. AFAIK a real IBM EGA board (and I assume clones) can be configured to work with an MDA, CGA or EGA monitor. Obviously the avaialble graphic modes are limited by the monitor you use, but it will work. The IBM EGA board has a DE9 socket on the bracket for the monitor, with a jumper link on the board to select the funcito nfo pin 2 (either grounded, for CGA and MDA monitors or the low bit of the red signal for EGA monitors). There are also 2 RCA phono sockets, but they're just wired to 2 pins of the expansion conenctor. I guess you could desig a composite video encoder to fit there. Oh, there's an SIL header (I think 6 pins, one cut off) for a lightpen on the board too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 13:25:51 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 19:25:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <201204182031.QAA17862@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 18, 12 04:31:22 pm Message-ID: > It has nothing to do with any other reasons to not get a scanner (of > which it sounds as though you have plenty), but you do not necessarily > need a "modern PC". I've got at least one scanner which speaks > SCSI...or is that enough to count as "modern" to you? :) I haev no moral objections to SCSI at all (it's fully docuemtned, it's not over-complicated, there are standard ICs to talk to it, or you cna do it all in simple logic chips, etc). The problem is that very few of my machines have SCSI interfaces. Also, for a machien to be useful with a scanner, I would have thought it should have a high resolution graphics display. Of the machines I use, the PERQ probabl;y has the heighest pixel count (1280*1024),. but that;'s only 1 bit per pixel. The I2S units have a better colour resolution, but only 512*512 pixels. They conenct to a PDP11 (or will do when I get round to restorign them). Of course the problem is that there are not likely to be any drivers for a scanner on any of these machines. I realsie the scanenr commands are documented (at least for some scanners), but writign the drivers is not something I want to undertake.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 13:32:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 19:32:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: another one bites the dust... In-Reply-To: from "John Many Jars" at Apr 18, 12 10:19:07 pm Message-ID: > > ... another classic service dies... first Gopher (Archie, etc) now > Ceefax (teletext)! > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceefax I presume this is due to the fact that there is now no analuge broadcast TV in Britain any more :-( bOr as I was saying yesterday 'I've got System I television // Though it can't receive a thing' [1]. [1] The original is fro ma Flanders and Swann song and is 'I've got colour television // THough it can't receive a thing'. I assume that NICAM stereo sound is also dead ;-(. Pity, I enjoyed building and aligning the Maplin decoder kit many years ago. As for Teletext, I am going to have to have a go at making a teletext encoder so as to be able to do something with the various decoders I have (homebrew and otherwise, for the BBC micro and otherwise). As far as I know there is nothing to stop radio amateurs in the UK (or elsewhere) transmiting teletect (or NICAM sound) as part of a TV signal. I don't know if any do, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 14:01:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 20:01:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 18, 12 05:56:30 pm Message-ID: > The 555 is starting to be not very visible in industry, either. There are > very few applications these days that are so simple - there always seems to > be some sort of microprocessor hanging around that can be in some ways > utilized - with the advantage of not needing the 555s resistors and > capacitors and all the issues they bring. Like reliabbiltiy and repairability ;-). A metal-film resistor, used below its ratings, will outlive any microcotnroller. And as I've said before, I don;t ahve the problems with capacitors that some seem to. Commerically, you want to sell new devices, That means making the old ones hard to repair, or at least hard to repair without buying expensive spares from you. Microcontrollers are ideal for this, you can protect the code so that a repairer either has to buy one from you (or more likely buy the complete PCB ;-(), or spend many hours writing his own version of the code. If its a 555 and a few R's and C's, then anyone can fix it (if it ever fials, which is less likely ...) OK, soemwhat tongue-in-cheek, but only somewhat... It's also worth rememerbign that what is sensible for a production run is not necessarily sensible for a on-off hobbyist design. In the former case it's worth spending longer designing it (e.g. by taking the time to program a micorcontrollr fro the job, thus reducing the thign to one IC and a few other compoennts), since it will simplify production. In the latter case it can be worth using more components if it simplifies the design or debugging stages. Ultimately it's up to the designer. If you consider the options and decide a microocnrolelr is what you want ot use, then fine. Go and do it. What makes me cringe are people who come out with 'Oh, just use an Arduino' without considerign other options, in fact without thinking abotu the problem at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 14:07:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 20:07:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <9E70461D4F704453A54F7B574FFC00E3@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Apr 18, 12 11:48:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > I am not ssure I want to let it out of my sight ;-). That > > said, for $500 > > (or $250) I could be persuaded to stand in front of a photocopier... > > It's that valuable :-) I was only half-offering, as I can't believe > that a digital copy really is worth $500 to anyone. I'd settle for > fuel really. I agree.... I cna;t think anoyone is going to pay $500 for a scan or photocopy of this... > I assume you don't have a photocopier for the same reason you don't > have a scanner. In which case you'll be using someone else's equipment. Actually, I do have a photcopier... It'smodern, and yesm, the cotnrol electroncis is based on one ASCI, presuably a microcontroller at least in part. But it;'s old-fashioned in that it's an optical thing, the ligt frelected off the original is focussed on the photoconductiove drum, there is no CCD or anything like that. And I feel I could rebuild the complete control system if I ahd to (a lot easier than driving a random CCD anyhow). > I've never looked too closely at the economics of photocopying, but > it's going to cost 4-5p per page (assuming that the cost of home > printing It's that sort of order... > on a laser printer is any guide). In which case I'd guess that it's > almost the same cost to go to a high street copying emporium and have > them > scan it properly straight to a PDF. Except that such places, at least round here, ask nasty quesitons if you take alonge abundel of sheets with a copyright notice on them... > > (I'd offer to bring a sheet-feed scanner along and scan it in your > presence, > but no doubt someone at work would notice its absence :-)) :-) Where are you based? Just in case I could visit with the manual... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 13:44:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 19:44:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <20120418141624.L78225@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 18, 12 02:33:58 pm Message-ID: > You don't consider a 5170 to be "modern"? It can run WindoZe 3.1! Well, it's more modern than the machines I really like, after all the CPU is a single chip, and you can't trace the microcode, but at least there are scheamtics and BIOS listings on the shelf. > > On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Mouse wrote: > > It has nothing to do with any other reasons to not get a scanner (of > > which it sounds as though you have plenty), but you do not necessarily > > need a "modern PC". I've got at least one scanner which speaks > > SCSI...or is that enough to count as "modern" to you? :) > > IF it were to be properly documented (THEY AREN'T.), Tony could easily > create a "Centronics port" or SCSI on one of his existing machines. Indeed I could. I've done so many times. Including having a PC-compatible Cetnronics port hung off the the PERQlink so I could talk to some I/O devices that were designed to connect to a printer port but shich uysed the signals in odd ways. But (a) thet would require proper documentation and (b) it would requre men to spend a lot of tiem writing drivers, control software, etc. I am not a programmer... > I'll bet that he has a "parallel port" on his PC/AT! 3, acutally. I don;t often use any of them, but they came 'for free' on other boards. > But he does not want to OWN anything as undocumented as a "current" (post > 1975?) scanner. > > I'm sure that with the right incentives (think CAREFULLY about what to > offer!), he could arrange a few hours use of the dining room table, garage > floor, or an extension cord and a picnic table on a nice day, for somebody > else to drop by with a portable scanner and a laptop. I have a "Scan No problem (seriously). Or indeed, do it at an HPCC meeting. Come as my guest with a scanner and laptop, I'll bring the manual. > Wand" that is about 1" x 1" x 12" that does a mediocre job of battery > powered scanning onto MicroSD. Surely Tony would let that into his house > for an hour. Or ride along to somewhere where there is a good scanner > available for use. Of course. I feel the same way about this as I do about photographing my clasisc computers, etc. When I give demostrations of them, or take somethign to an HPCC meeting, or... I ahve no rpoblems with people taking photos. Doing so will not damage the classic computer, so why should I object? And although I use film cmaeras, the larger the format the batter, I am not so stypid as to think that focusing the light reflected from one of my machines onto silver halide film .vs. focussing it onto a CCD makes any difference at all. SO I have no problems if people whatn to use a digital camera. I do object to flashpowder becuase magnesium oxide is not good for my machiens. But flashbulbs and gas discharge ('electronic') flash are fine. Scanning a looseleaf manual will not damage it, so I have no objections to it being done. In fact several of my manuals (not IBM) have alredy been scanned. > Frankly, I think that Tony should accept one of the offered "free" > scanners, and then discard ALL of the circuitry within it, and build a > control interface to talk directly to the CCD and mechanical components. > THEN he could have a properly designed and properly documented scanner. > WITH an appropriate interface. You forget my background. I speny many a night in the phusics lab getting a CCD controller to work, and I am convinced that it's 'interesting' to say the least. CCDs are not easy to drive, the charge trafer takes place as the voltage on one electrode is falling while that on another is rising. AS a result the exact shape of the drive waveforms is crticial, stray capacitance can cause problems, and so on. Doign it on an essentially undocuemtned CCD is something for masochists only... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 19 13:53:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 19:53:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: S: Schematics from the PSU TSZ07(Cipher M995S) In-Reply-To: <20120418215049.GA75890@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Apr 18, 12 11:50:49 pm Message-ID: > > The output side cotnains the output rectifiers, smoothing capacitors,=20 > > crowbar, ay aditional regualtors, and the voltage feedback circuit. The= > =20 > > chopper drive cirucit could be on either side of the barrier, depenedin= > g=20 > > on the design of the PSU. > > Tony, I'm repairing switch mode PSUs for at least 20 years now :-) My apologies... It is very hard to judge somebody's level of experience from a couple of posts here, and I have found it ebtter to satart from the basics. > > > The three wire cable from left bottom to upper rigt is going to the > > > transormer behind the sheet metal on the top pcb, it looks to me like > > > the drains from 2 FETs (on the heat sink) and 330V ... (don't know t= > his > >=20 > > My guess is that this is the centre-tapped primary of the chopper=20 > > transformer and that you have a push-pull chopper circuit (not unusual)= > .=20 > > Yes, think this too. In whcih case the PCB wit hthe trasnformer on it is probably the otupt uside, the PCB with the FETs o nit is the mains side. There will be a litle of the 'wrong' side on one of the PCBs, for example the optoisolator will eb on one PCB amd will bridge the 2 sides, but apart from that it looks like the 'isolation barrier' is really the division between the 2 PCBs. > There is no SMPS controller in there, that Unit is build from diskrete Wellm there is, it;s just not a single chip... There is something to drive the chpper transitors and vry the drive based on the output voltage, but is;ts discrete transsitors and Op-amps. And that makes life difficult. You cna use a SMPSU control IC( let's say an SG3524) in essentiually one way. But you can use trnasistors and op-amps in many ways, so figuring out what is going on is harder. But you know this. I would still try to work out just how the resitor and its FET are used. If necessary, trace out the circuit from the mains input through the rectifier to the capacitros and choppers. Then trace out the supply to the control circuitry (e.g. the power pins on that 358). Hopefully something will make sense. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 19 15:17:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 13:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120419130924.I12575@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 19 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > If he DOES need the original (legal evidence, or some such), > Well, I supposed tha, logically, I would have to tell him to look > elsewhere :-) > > what if he offered you a high-quality double sided bound Xerox of it, > > plus cash, > > plus some interesting hardware from that period or before? > Although that would be tempting... I was merely suggesting that, for a sufficient incentive, that you might even give up the original, in exchange for a copy of adequate quality to have all the information content, plus suitable [large] compensation, > The IBM EGA board has a DE9 socket on the bracket for the monitor, with a > jumper link on the board to select the funcito nfo pin 2 (either > grounded, for CGA and MDA monitors or the low bit of the red signal for > EGA monitors). There are also 2 RCA phono sockets, but they're just wired > to 2 pins of the expansion conenctor. I guess you could desig a composite > video encoder to fit there. When I fist saw the board, I was seriously disappointed that neither of those was wired to provide a composite (RS170?) signal. > Oh, there's an SIL header (I think 6 pins, > one cut off) for a lightpen on the board too. But, probably due to the long persistance phosphor of the original IBM "Monochrome" monitor, IBM never provided a light pen for any of their [PC video] cards that supported one. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 15:38:38 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 15:38:38 -0500 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9077CE.9000600@gmail.com> On 04/19/2012 02:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I do have a photcopier... It'smodern, and yesm, the cotnrol > electroncis is based on one ASCI, presuably a microcontroller at least in > part. But it;'s old-fashioned in that it's an optical thing, the ligt > frelected off the original is focussed on the photoconductiove drum, > there is no CCD or anything like that. And I feel I could rebuild the > complete control system if I ahd to (a lot easier than driving a random > CCD anyhow). On the subject of old-fashioned photocopiers, someone sent the text below to uk.d-i-y a few weeks ago - I suspect that you (and potentially a few others here) might enjoy reading about it, even though it's rather OT (and hence apologies to everyone else, who can stop reading now...) cheers Jules >>> I used to have an early 1960s photocopier (long since donated to the >>> Science Museum) in which you had to do each stage by hand. It half >>> filled the garage. >> >> A Diazo type thing? > > It was a manual electrostatic plain paper photocopier. I think Xerox > produced them in limited numbers to trial the concept, before making an > automatic machine, hence the interest from the Science Museum. > > The thing to be copied was placed behind a vertical glass plate, lit by > a couple of 200W lamps, opposite which was a huge bellows camera. The > camera could be moved along a graduated slide, to give an image between > 50% and 200% of the original. After setting the copy ratio, you put a > ground glass screen into the back of the camera, to set the focus. > > You then put a coated flat plate, mounted in a wooden frame, into an > electrostatic charging chamber, ran the charging cycle and slid a > lightproof shield over the coated side, before removing the plate from > the chamber. The plate then replaced the ground glass screen and you > withdrew the lightproof shield for the required exposure time, which > IIRC was quite long. Once exposure was over, the lightproof shield went > back in place and the coated plate went on top of another chamber, which > contained a mixture of beads and toner powder. The shield came off again > and the whole chamber was turned upside down and rocked to and fro on a > central pivot, to run the beads and toner over the exposed plate. The > toner stuck to the areas that had not been exposed to light in the > camera (i.e. the black bits on the image of the original). > > Once that was done, the plate could be removed from the toner chamber > (after turning it the right way up) and a sheet of paper placed, very > carefully, over the coated surface. I think there was something to hold > it in place. the whole lot now went back into the electrostatic chamber > and the charge reversed, so that the toner was drawn onto the paper. > ISTR there was a plus and minus control, although I forget which charged > the plate and which transferred the toner to the paper. > > With a bit of luck, you now had a piece of paper covered with black > toner powder, which was very delicate and easily smudged. That went into > an oven in the apparatus for a few minutes. When it was cooked, you had > your photocopy. > > It took about a quarter of an hour to do a single copy, although > multiple copies could be done a bit faster per copy, as you could be > preparing another plate while the first was being exposed and be doing > the toner for that while the first page was cooking. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 19 16:17:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:17:57 -0700 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <4F9077CE.9000600@gmail.com> References: , <4F9077CE.9000600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F901E95.11352.10BD9E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2012 at 15:38, Jules Richardson wrote: > On the subject of old-fashioned photocopiers, someone sent the text > below to uk.d-i-y a few weeks ago - I suspect that you (and > potentially a few others here) might enjoy reading about it, even > though it's rather OT (and hence apologies to everyone else, who can > stop reading now...) Probably a Haloid Rectigraph, or this thing: http://www.fondation-langlois.org/html/e/page.php?NumPage=2028 --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 19 18:58:20 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 19:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I've got at least one scanner which speaks SCSI...[...] > Also, for a machien to be useful with a scanner, I would have thought > it should have a high resolution graphics display. I'd say that's overstating the case. It helps, certainly, but it is by no means necessary. Indeed, some scanners (including mine) can be set to do a 1bpp scan, when speed of scanning is more important than detailed accuracy, and/or you're going to be treating it in a 1bpp way (such as sending it by fax) anyway, or some such. Even if they're of no use for your end purpose, 1bpp scans can be very useful to allow you to adjust the rectangle of the scanner bed you want to scan (at higher fidelity) and save. > Of course the problem is that there are not likely to be any drivers > for a scanner on any of these machines. I realsie the scanenr > commands are documented (at least for some scanners), but writign the > drivers is not something I want to undertake.... Depending on what you mean by "driver", this may or may not be an issue. I use SANE, which I think demands nothing from the OS but the ability to send SCSI CDBs to the device and get responses (including data) back. (Of course, adding that capability to an existing OS can be a nontrivial effort....) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 21:43:14 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 22:43:14 -0400 Subject: [NO REWARD WHATSOEVER] Looking for IBM, ANSI, and Sun doc In-Reply-To: <201204191344.q3JDikb0038718@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204191344.q3JDikb0038718@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Does anybody have scans of any or all of the following? > > > IBM > 01. MVS/ESA Component Diagnosis and Logic: EXCP Processor (LY28-1477) > 02. LY28-1487 > 03. LY28-1488 > 04. LC28-1166-5 IBM might get very unhappy about scans of "L" manuals kicking around the net for free. Discretion may be in order. -- Will From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 23:23:09 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 07:23:09 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Hi, Thanks for all the trouble so far. I am now in possesion of the EGA documentation. Still $2,000 waiting to be claimed and I might have to add a few new pieces of documentation to that list in the near future---depends on how my current leads go. Cheers, Bogdan From CyndeM at vulcan.com Thu Apr 19 15:09:25 2012 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 20:09:25 +0000 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> What kind of material are you going to make them out of? Will it be archival quality material; something that will last a long time without chipping or outgassing? Cynde Moya On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 08:56:12PM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i'm going to be venturing down the road of making some is anyone > interested in any > If they don't end up being too expensive I'd be interested. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Thu Apr 19 17:27:02 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 23:27:02 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update Message-ID: <01OEIQJSQ2K80012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >I haev no moral objections to SCSI at all (it's fully docuemtned, it's >not over-complicated, there are standard ICs to talk to it, or you cna do >it all in simple logic chips, etc). The problem is that very few of my >machines have SCSI interfaces. > >Also, for a machien to be useful with a scanner, I would have thought it >should have a high resolution graphics display. Of the machines I use, >the PERQ probabl;y has the heighest pixel count (1280*1024),. but that;'s >only 1 bit per pixel. The I2S units have a better colour resolution, but >only 512*512 pixels. They conenct to a PDP11 (or will do when I get round >to restorign them). > >Of course the problem is that there are not likely to be any drivers for >a scanner on any of these machines. I realsie the scanenr commands are >documented (at least for some scanners), but writign the drivers is not >something I want to undertake.... > I've got a SCSI scanner plugged in to a MicroVAX 4000. Using the open source "sane" portable scanning package, suitably tweaked for VMS, I can scan quite happily. It's not fast - I've never gotten around to looking into speeding it up. My MV4000 doesn't happen to have graphics capability but the TIFF files from the scanner can be displayed using a clustered VAXstation 3100 which does have graphics or displayed on a remote X-Windows server or transferred to another machine for viewing. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 09:39:02 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:39:02 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I'll have to reduce the reward for the two 8514/A documents to $50, as I've been able to locate copies of those as well. Anyone in Florida? Cheers, Bogdan 2012/4/20 Bogdan Barbu : > Hi, > > Thanks for all the trouble so far. I am now in possesion of the EGA > documentation. Still $2,000 waiting to be claimed and I might have to > add a few new pieces of documentation to that list in the near > future---depends on how my current leads go. > > Cheers, > Bogdan -- Cheers, Bogdan From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 10:48:17 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 18:48:17 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I mean $50 each. 2012/4/20 Bogdan Barbu : > I'll have to reduce the reward for the two 8514/A documents to $50, as > I've been able to locate copies of those as well. Anyone in Florida? > > Cheers, > Bogdan > > 2012/4/20 Bogdan Barbu : >> Hi, >> >> Thanks for all the trouble so far. I am now in possesion of the EGA >> documentation. Still $2,000 waiting to be claimed and I might have to >> add a few new pieces of documentation to that list in the near >> future---depends on how my current leads go. >> >> Cheers, >> Bogdan > > > > -- > Cheers, > Bogdan -- Cheers, Bogdan From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Fri Apr 20 12:52:08 2012 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 18:52:08 +0100 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> > A metal-film resistor, used > below its ratings, will outlive any microcotnroller. > > -tony > Well maybe (though no guarantee there), but the 555 would likely have the same sort of lifetime as a microcontroller - arguably poorer. Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 20 13:04:26 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 12:04:26 -0600 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> References: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> Message-ID: <4F91A52A.2040909@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/20/2012 11:52 AM, Robert Adamson wrote: > Well maybe (though no guarantee there), but the 555 would likely have the > same sort of lifetime as a microcontroller - arguably poorer. That is 30 seconds. Wait, I guess we are not discussing marketing. I would go with the 555 timer, the Arduino could be running near its max clock freq. > Bob Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 20 13:05:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> > What kind of material are you going to make them out of? Will it be > archival quality material; something that will last a long time without > chipping or outgassing? Rosewood? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 13:13:28 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:13:28 -0500 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120418120907.GE26253@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120418192646.7496526f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: less then 2hrs to go if i win any help would be nice??? anyone able to pick it up? i go back to working in the bush at a mine away from banks on wensday for 14days be back may 10th any suggestions? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 13:22:05 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:22:05 -0500 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: thanks for the laugh On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > What kind of material are you going to make them out of? Will it be > > archival quality material; something that will last a long time without > > chipping or outgassing? > > Rosewood? > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 20 13:06:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:06:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <20120419130924.I12575@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 19, 12 01:17:53 pm Message-ID: > I was merely suggesting that, for a sufficient incentive, that you might > even give up the original, in exchange for a copy of adequate quality to > have all the information content, plus suitable [large] compensation, It's possible... I think one thing I would insist upon (and which might well be impossible in most cases) would be a letter fro mthe copyright holder (e.g. IBM) authorising this copy. In other words, the docuemtn I end up with is as legal as the one I hand over. > > > > The IBM EGA board has a DE9 socket on the bracket for the monitor, with a > > jumper link on the board to select the funcito nfo pin 2 (either > > grounded, for CGA and MDA monitors or the low bit of the red signal for > > EGA monitors). There are also 2 RCA phono sockets, but they're just wired > > to 2 pins of the expansion conenctor. I guess you could desig a composite > > video encoder to fit there. > > When I fist saw the board, I was seriously disappointed that neither of > those was wired to provide a composite (RS170?) signal. So was I. I once made a little monochrom video compiner to drive a composite monitor from an EGA card (if you use the CGA compatible modes, it provides the same scan rates as a US TV signal). This I did plug into that expansion conenctor... > > > Oh, there's an SIL header (I think 6 pins, > > one cut off) for a lightpen on the board too. > > But, probably due to the long persistance phosphor of the original IBM > "Monochrome" monitor, IBM never provided a light pen for any of their > [PC video] cards that supported one. > >From what I rememebr reading the the O&A Techref,m the MDA card did not claim to support a lightpen, even though the is the connector for it. I guess this is becuase of the persistance of the 5151 monitor. The CGA board does claim to support a lightpen, I don't think that IBM ever suppleid one for it though. I am not sure what you were supposed to use with it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 20 13:08:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:08:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <4F9077CE.9000600@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 19, 12 03:38:38 pm Message-ID: > On the subject of old-fashioned photocopiers, someone sent the text below > to uk.d-i-y a few weeks ago - I suspect that you (and potentially a few > others here) might enjoy reading about it, even though it's rather OT (and > hence apologies to everyone else, who can stop reading now...) I rememebr reading aobut those totally manual copiers (including shaking the charged and exposed plate in a bag of toner..), but I've never seen ot used one. Yes, it would be fun.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 20 13:19:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:19:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <01OEIQJSQ2K80012HE@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Apr 19, 12 11:27:02 pm Message-ID: > I've got a SCSI scanner plugged in to a MicroVAX 4000. Using the open source > "sane" portable scanning package, suitably tweaked for VMS, I can scan quite That 'suitably tweaked for VMS' worries me a little. I am not a programmer, I am not sure I could do things like that. In any case there are really only 2 clases of VAXen I would want to try running. One is the 11/780 and its brothers (11/782, 11/785), the other is the 11/730 (and I guess 11/725). The former is too large for me to accomodate at the moment, so it would have to be the latter. And I suspect Unibus SCSI cards are not easy to find anyway... The reason I pick those 2 familes, of course, is that there are very few custom ICs in them. OK, the 11/730 does have the memory ECC gate arrays used in the 11/750, but everythign else is standard, and documented. The PALs are not copy-protected. Mind you, the 'genius' who decided to use DRAM for the CPU control store, with the result that tyhe CPU has to put in a wait state every so offten to refresh the control store deserbves a LART! In any case, thos diesn;t get round the problem (for me) of fidnign a scanner I could repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 20 13:23:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:23:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 19, 12 07:58:20 pm Message-ID: > Depending on what you mean by "driver", this may or may not be an > issue. I use SANE, which I think demands nothing from the OS but the > ability to send SCSI CDBs to the device and get responses (including > data) back. (Of course, adding that capability to an existing OS can > be a nontrivial effort....) OK... suppose we pick the one machine I use regularly with a bitpmapped display -- a classic PERQ. I would have to make a SCSI interface (quit simple). Write the microcode to drive it (all I/O has to be done from the CPU microcode). Agian, I think I could manange that Port the SANE stuff, presumably written in C, to PERQ Pascal, get it to compile and run. I suspect that is decidedly non-trivvial Find soem way to store the images and get them off the machien onto something mroe useful. 8" floppies or DC300 tapes anyone? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 20 13:24:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:24:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: from "Bogdan Barbu" at Apr 20, 12 07:23:09 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Thanks for all the trouble so far. I am now in possesion of the EGA > documentation. Still $2,000 waiting to be claimed and I might have to Just as well I didn't spend serious time and paper/toner making a copy of it, then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 20 14:03:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 20:03:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> from "Robert Adamson" at Apr 20, 12 06:52:08 pm Message-ID: > > > A metal-film resistor, used > > below its ratings, will outlive any microcotnroller. > > > > -tony > > > Well maybe (though no guarantee there), but the 555 would likely have the > same sort of lifetime as a microcontroller - arguably poorer. Why? My expeirence is that more compelx ICs are noticably less reliable than simple ones. An IC (of any complexity) is more reliable that making the same circuit from discrete components or simpler ICs, but that's not the issue. I would think the 555 had a much better lifetime than any microcontrolelr therefore. The origianl 555 (as opposed to the 7555, etc) is large-ish junciton bipolar and thus less likely to suffer static damage than a MOS microcotnroller. It also has a much wider supply votaeg range and is less likely to be damaged by supply problems. And of coruse if a microcontroller fails, unless you have the program to put into it, you're stuck. If a 555 fails, well, there's a tube of 50 in my spares box. And I cna go to any number of suppliers anf buy one. -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Apr 20 14:19:29 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 21:19:29 +0200 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F91A52A.2040909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> <4F91A52A.2040909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> ben wrote: > On 4/20/2012 11:52 AM, Robert Adamson wrote: > > >Well maybe (though no guarantee there), but the 555 would likely have the > >same sort of lifetime as a microcontroller - arguably poorer. > > That is 30 seconds. Wait, I guess we are not discussing marketing. > I would go with the 555 timer, the Arduino could be running near its > max clock freq. > > >Bob > Ben. > The discussion is almost nonsense :-) There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 nor there is one that only uses a micro. So what? I'm thinkering to build an small Epromer for just one single sort of Eproms (Am27C291/CY7C291..) and I'm desingning in a ?A723 currently. What about his chip? It is old like stoneage and still in production.. Unfortunately I'm unable to emulate it's functionality with the Amtega32 that will be go in that promer (No, Im not going to build an buck converter out of an Atmega Timer), but for sure I'm generating the program pulse length not with a 555... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 14:39:19 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:39:19 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> References: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> Message-ID: > Well maybe (though no guarantee there), but the 555 would likely have the > same sort of lifetime as a microcontroller - arguably poorer. Considering how many die shrinks and process refinements the 555 has gone through, I would say poorer, and by quite a bit. Today's 555, or maybe even ones ten years old or more, are made to *just* meet all the published specifications, and *nothing* more. With low value, high volume parts like the 555, shaving fractions of a percent can save a lot of money in the long term. With a fairly young design, like a modern microcontroller, it pays to make them some amount better than the specs, because the fabs can always refine the chip later to shave those costs. As for metal film resistors - just the fact that they exist on the board makes them unreliable and yield killing. Old saying - the most reliable parts are the ones that are not there. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 14:46:40 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:46:40 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> <4F91A52A.2040909@jetnet.ab.ca> <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > The discussion is almost nonsense :-) > > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 Land mines. or there is one > that only uses a micro. Children's toys. -- Will From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 14:53:45 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 14:53:45 -0500 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120418120907.GE26253@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120418192646.7496526f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: well it ended at 1500 euros was not me who won it hopefully a museum got it. woulda been nice to have for the space i am aquiring stuff for in the next yr or so From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 20 15:07:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:07:46 -0400 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F91C212.90609@neurotica.com> On 04/20/2012 10:39 AM, Bogdan Barbu wrote: > I'll have to reduce the reward for the two 8514/A documents to $50, as > I've been able to locate copies of those as well. Anyone in Florida? I am in Port Charlotte, Florida at the moment, and will be for a few days. My schedule is very tight (unless you want to help me load my truck ;)) but I will help if I can. What's up? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Apr 20 15:26:19 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 22:26:19 +0200 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> <4F91A52A.2040909@jetnet.ab.ca> <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120420202619.GA87731@beast.freibergnet.de> William Donzelli wrote: > > The discussion is almost nonsense :-) > > > > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 > > Land mines. ...hmm... such ones that put out a bunch of 555's instead of exploding? Think you would need at least a battery, resistors, some sensor, an actuator or some glow device ...endless things that can fail. There are already constructions w/o the need of any electrics at all. Next, I wouldn't build duch an device, I'm a pacifist (mostly). You are an American? I've learned that such things tend to not solve problems, they build other, bigger problems, so you need A Bombs then, wich tend to not solve problems... > > or there is one > > that only uses a micro. > > Children's toys. Same here, may be my 6 year old son is suprised a little if I give him an old 8742 to play with (and to look in it)..... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Apr 20 15:59:06 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:59:06 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability Message-ID: > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 Actually I recall a 70's hobbyist homebrew optical paper tape reader (in BYTE?) where the Schmitt Trigger for each photodiode was nothing but a 555, NOT BEING USED AS A TIMER, just as a Schmitt Trigger. Unlike using real "schmitt trigger" parts the 555 had a built in resistor network that set trip points to 1/3 and 2/3 Vcc with no external parts. I was really thrown for a loop when I saw the schematic. Nine 555's, no R's or C's. I was sure it was a typo or an April Fool's joke, but no, it was for real. Similarly folks cleverly use PIC's (not sure Arduino can do the same but probably) choosing Schmitt trigger inputs and/or internal pull-ups. I'm sure someone could make a 1/3 and 2/3 Schmitt trigger using PIC's and some clever cross-wiring of analog and digital ports. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 20 17:13:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:13:25 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> References: , <4F91A52A.2040909@jetnet.ab.ca>, <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2012 at 21:19, Holm Tiffe wrote: > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 nor there is > one that only uses a micro. So what? Is that true? I routinely use an 8-pin PIC to develop a READY/ signal from the INDEX/ signal on a floppy drive. Other than +5 for power supply, it requires no components. I could have done the same thing with a 555 or two, but I'd have to add R and C to make it work. That same PIC could potentially serve as a timer with a period in centuries without any external components--something an 555 could not do. --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Apr 20 17:27:35 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 00:27:35 +0200 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120420222735.GA386@beast.freibergnet.de> Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 > > Actually I recall a 70's hobbyist homebrew optical paper tape reader (in BYTE?) where the Schmitt Trigger for each photodiode was nothing but a 555, NOT BEING USED AS A TIMER, just as a Schmitt Trigger. Unlike using real "schmitt trigger" parts the 555 had a built in resistor network that set trip points to 1/3 and 2/3 Vcc with no external parts. > > I was really thrown for a loop when I saw the schematic. Nine 555's, no R's or C's. I was sure it was a typo or an April Fool's joke, but no, it was for real. > > Similarly folks cleverly use PIC's (not sure Arduino can do the same but probably) choosing Schmitt trigger inputs and/or internal pull-ups. I'm sure someone could make a 1/3 and 2/3 Schmitt trigger using PIC's and some clever cross-wiring of analog and digital ports. > > Tim. Yes, one can use the AD Converter with the integrated Multiplexer from some micros, but... Guys...What do you want to say? Should I build the entire logic of the Paper tape reader out of 555's? Regard,s Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Apr 20 17:31:03 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 00:31:03 +0200 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120420223103.GB386@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Apr 2012 at 21:19, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 nor there is > > one that only uses a micro. So what? > > Is that true? YES! What I wanted to say no 555 and mo micro alone can do anything. There where other parts to add some functionality. It depends on energy at least to do something. It isn't relevat if there is a 555 or a micro, alone they make pretty little bugs that sit on the table... Regards, Holm > I routinely use an 8-pin PIC to develop a READY/ > signal from the INDEX/ signal on a floppy drive. Other than +5 for > power supply, it requires no components. I could have done the same > thing with a 555 or two, but I'd have to add R and C to make it work. > > That same PIC could potentially serve as a timer with a period in > centuries without any external components--something an 555 could not > do. > > --Chuck -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From alhartman at yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 17:32:12 2012 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega ZIP programming manual ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1334961132.6021.YahooMailNeo@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Try contacting Steve Gibson (http://www.grc.com/intro.htm). He wrote some Zip/Jazz drive diagnostic software that addressed the "click of death" problem. Maybe he can help you? Al From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 18:45:29 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 18:45:29 -0500 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> <4F91A52A.2040909@jetnet.ab.ca> <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F91F519.70506@gmail.com> On 04/20/2012 02:19 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 You can use them as an alarm system, scattering them upside-down around the fridge, for detecting when kids in bare feet sneak downstairs for a midnight snack... ;-) cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 18:47:17 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:47:17 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F91F519.70506@gmail.com> References: <000001cd1f1e$4f358580$eda09080$@co.uk> <4F91A52A.2040909@jetnet.ab.ca> <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F91F519.70506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <64B15D89-740E-458E-9700-09D5DBC0085A@gmail.com> On Apr 20, 2012, at 7:45 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/20/2012 02:19 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 > > You can use them as an alarm system, scattering them upside-down around the fridge, for detecting when kids in bare feet sneak downstairs for a midnight snack... ;-) True, but LEGOs are much cheaper. :-) (at least if you get them in bulk) - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 20 18:50:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:50:35 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120420223103.GB386@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120420223103.GB386@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F9193DB.5332.1DD6CD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2012 at 0:31, Holm Tiffe wrote: > What I wanted to say no 555 and mo micro alone can do anything. There > where other parts to add some functionality. It depends on energy at > least to do something. It isn't relevat if there is a 555 or a micro, > alone they make pretty little bugs that sit on the table... Isn't that a bit of a straw man argument? What bit of electronic paraphenalia can do anything without some energy input? For that matter, what bit of any device, yourself included, can do anything without energy input? Without energy, you're food for the worms (which depend on you for their energy). --Chuck From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 19:05:44 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 03:05:44 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <4F91C212.90609@neurotica.com> References: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F91C212.90609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: 2012/4/20 Dave McGuire : > On 04/20/2012 10:39 AM, Bogdan Barbu wrote: >> I'll have to reduce the reward for the two 8514/A documents to $50, as >> I've been able to locate copies of those as well. Anyone in Florida? > > ?I am in Port Charlotte, Florida at the moment, and will be for a few > days. ?My schedule is very tight (unless you want to help me load my > truck ;)) but I will help if I can. ?What's up? Well, I need someone to borrow the two documents from the library and take them to a copy shop or something so that they can be scanned. All the details are in the links below: http://ucf.catalog.fcla.edu/cf.jsp?st=CF000446863&ix=pm&I=0&V=D&pm=1 http://ucf.catalog.fcla.edu/cf.jsp?st=CF000387038&ix=pm&I=0&V=D&pm=1 Of course, only if you have the time. If you do, let me know so that we can also discuss in private how to go about the reward, etc. Cheers, Bogdan From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 19:09:56 2012 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 03:09:56 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: <201204192358.TAA12236@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F91C212.90609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: 2012/4/21 Bogdan Barbu : > 2012/4/20 Dave McGuire : >> On 04/20/2012 10:39 AM, Bogdan Barbu wrote: >>> I'll have to reduce the reward for the two 8514/A documents to $50, as >>> I've been able to locate copies of those as well. Anyone in Florida? >> >> ?I am in Port Charlotte, Florida at the moment, and will be for a few >> days. ?My schedule is very tight (unless you want to help me load my >> truck ;)) but I will help if I can. ?What's up? > > Well, I need someone to borrow the two documents from the library and > take them to a copy shop or something so that they can be scanned. All > the details are in the links below: > > http://ucf.catalog.fcla.edu/cf.jsp?st=CF000446863&ix=pm&I=0&V=D&pm=1 > http://ucf.catalog.fcla.edu/cf.jsp?st=CF000387038&ix=pm&I=0&V=D&pm=1 > > Of course, only if you have the time. If you do, let me know so that > we can also discuss in private how to go about the reward, etc. PS: I didn't check where Port Charlotte is on the map so sorry if I'm being entirely stupid :) Cheers, Bogdan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 20 20:21:35 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 20:21:35 -0500 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F920B9F.1060204@gmail.com> On 04/20/2012 01:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Depending on what you mean by "driver", this may or may not be an >> issue. I use SANE, which I think demands nothing from the OS but the >> ability to send SCSI CDBs to the device and get responses (including >> data) back. (Of course, adding that capability to an existing OS can >> be a nontrivial effort....) > > OK... suppose we pick the one machine I use regularly with a bitpmapped > display -- a classic PERQ. > > I would have to make a SCSI interface (quit simple). > Write the microcode to drive it (all I/O has to be done from the CPU > microcode). Agian, I think I could manange that > Port the SANE stuff, presumably written in C, to PERQ Pascal, get it to > compile and run. I suspect that is decidedly non-trivvial I'm not even sure what the SCSI protocol for driving a scanner is like - anyone know? Is it treated like a mass storage device, where seeks will move the head and read commands will scan a line of the image, or does it use vendor unique commands to scan larger portions of the image and spit them over the SCSI bus? Either way, if you were designing your own trivial SCSI controller, then it may be better to forget all about SANE and just code at a lower level only for the particular scanner that you had; throw out SCSI commands and dump the resulting data to disk/display RAM. > Find soem way to store the images and get them off the machien onto > something mroe useful. 8" floppies or DC300 tapes anyone? SCSI? :-) Let's see, 8"x11" image @ 200dpi and 1bpp = 430KB approx. Maybe some simple compression could get that down to 250KB. I think it was just about possible to get 5KB/s reading *in* to a PC's parallel port, wasn't it? So 50 seconds for the transfer... that's perhaps acceptable for the odd image which you've previewed and know you want to keep, but not really suitable for doing a lot of pages in succession. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 20 23:26:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 00:26:41 -0400 Subject: help requested: ISA to PCMCIA slots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F923701.8070202@neurotica.com> It's possible that Linux will just support these out of the box. I remember at least a driver many years ago for the Texas Instruments ISA<->PCMCIA bridge chip. Give it a try and watch the kernel device probe messages. -Dave On 04/18/2012 07:56 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > Dear cctech folks; > > I have 2: ISA card controllers for PCMCIA cards > that I want to get running again. > I need the software & > just the essentials of the manual (switch & jumper settings). > > 1) > DATABOOK ThinCard DRIVE > model TMD-100-03 rev C > > 2) 16 bit ISA card: > MMCD-D2 Rev 2.0 ? 1994 SCM Microsystem GMBH > > Photos are here: > http://ferretronix.com/march/thincard/ > > thanks in advance > > Jeff Jonas > jeffj at panix.com -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 20 23:40:04 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 00:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: help requested: ISA to PCMCIA slots In-Reply-To: <4F923701.8070202@neurotica.com> References: <4F923701.8070202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > It's possible that Linux will just support these out of the box. Other OSes too; I have an ISA-to-PCMCIA (or possibly PCCard; I'm unclear on the details of the differences) card which Just Worked when I tried to use it under NetBSD - the device was found and recognized and both slots worked fine right from the start. (I don't see any statement of what OS jeffj wants to use this hardware under.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 00:07:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 01:07:38 -0400 Subject: help requested: ISA to PCMCIA slots In-Reply-To: <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F923701.8070202@neurotica.com> <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F92409A.5080006@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2012 12:40 AM, Mouse wrote: >> It's possible that Linux will just support these out of the box. > > Other OSes too; I have an ISA-to-PCMCIA (or possibly PCCard; I'm > unclear on the details of the differences) card which Just Worked when > I tried to use it under NetBSD - the device was found and recognized > and both slots worked fine right from the start. (I don't see any > statement of what OS jeffj wants to use this hardware under.) Oh yes, come to think of it, I recall having seen those supported by NetBSD as well. One fun thing along those lines was the Sun Sbus<->PCMCIA bridge board. That worked nicely under NetBSD if I recall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 00:57:23 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 06:57:23 +0100 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F9193DB.5332.1DD6CD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120420223103.GB386@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F9193DB.5332.1DD6CD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: See sure the 555 can do it http://hackaday.com/tag/555/ one seems to be building the computer from the 555's Dave Caroline From pinball at telus.net Fri Apr 20 14:49:21 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 12:49:21 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F91BDC1.1040401@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> A metal-film resistor, used >>> below its ratings, will outlive any microcotnroller. >>> >>> -tony >>> >>> >> Well maybe (though no guarantee there), but the 555 would likely have the >> same sort of lifetime as a microcontroller - arguably poorer. >> > > Why? > > My expeirence is that more compelx ICs are noticably less reliable than > simple ones. An IC (of any complexity) is more reliable that making the > same circuit from discrete components or simpler ICs, but that's not the > issue. > > I would think the 555 had a much better lifetime than any microcontrolelr > therefore. > > The origianl 555 (as opposed to the 7555, etc) is large-ish junciton > bipolar and thus less likely to suffer static damage than a MOS > microcotnroller. It also has a much wider supply votaeg range and is less > likely to be damaged by supply problems. > > And of coruse if a microcontroller fails, unless you have the program to > put into it, you're stuck. If a 555 fails, well, there's a tube of 50 in > my spares box. And I cna go to any number of suppliers anf buy one. > > -tony > > I'm with Tony here - consider this, the number of components on a 555 die vs the Aurdino are orders of magnitude less, and the size is much larger for the 555 elements. Cosmic radiation is one of the main causes of electronic failures, thus a part with larger elements and fewer bits is going to be more reliable. In my field we service video games from the early 70s (and up) - and 555s are amongst the most reliable parts found - far more reliable than CPUs (1980s) for example... John :-#)# From PETER at beyondthepale.ie Fri Apr 20 18:25:07 2012 From: PETER at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 00:25:07 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update Message-ID: <01OEK4NT0RJ6002AW6@beyondthepale.ie> > >> I've got a SCSI scanner plugged in to a MicroVAX 4000. Using the open source >> "sane" portable scanning package, suitably tweaked for VMS, I can scan quite > >That 'suitably tweaked for VMS' worries me a little. I am not a >programmer, I am not sure I could do things like that. > I'm not a programmer either but I never let that stop me. I added about 270 lines to sanei_scsi.c (including blank lines, (few) comments, debugging, error checking and assorted fluff) to implement a VMS version of the routine sanei_scsi_cmd2(), some of which I copied from the existing routine and to add routines vms_open_device() and vms_close_device(). The added code doesn't do anything more complicated than call system routines such as sys$assign(), sys$qiow() and sys$dassgn() and was practically lifted from "Generic SCSI Class Driver Programming Example" in the VMS I/O Users Reference Manual: Part I. I also added another 76 lines to do a quick hack translate of calls to syslog() into calls to sys$sndopr() as VMS doesn't have syslog(). Finally, I created a suitable config.h containing mainly #defines and gruesome hacks. The rest pretty much compiled as-is. (I didn't compile all of sane - just the bits I needed to for my scanner). It won't win any awards, but it seems to work. Besides, you don't have to do it - I've already done it! (If you want software for a PERQ, maybe someone else can help) > >In any case there are really only 2 clases of VAXen I would want to try >running. One is the 11/780 and its brothers (11/782, 11/785), the other >is the 11/730 (and I guess 11/725). The former is too large for me to >accomodate at the moment, so it would have to be the latter. And I >suspect Unibus SCSI cards are not easy to find anyway... > You could always build one :-) > >In any case, thos diesn;t get round the problem (for me) of fidnign a >scanner I could repair. > I think we've addressed all the other difficulties. We can't be expected to cover everything :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jeffj at panix.com Fri Apr 20 22:32:44 2012 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2012 23:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( Message-ID: replying to Grumpy Ol' Fred (Fred Cisin) > I wonder what happened to the class action suit and the regulatory actions? Google found http://www.iomega.com/rinaldi/ Rinaldi Class Action Settlement Wikipedia clarifies that the settlement was a rebate towards the future purchase of an Iomega product. What a ripoff! They made a faulty product and instead of paying a penalty with real money, they issued "funny money" coupons useful only for BUYING more of their crap! The Sharper Image pulled a similar ripoff during their bankruptcy. All gift cards were invalidated, but were then honored ONLY if you paid an equal amount towards a purchase. What a steal: turning perhaps $100 million of debt from pre-purchased gift cards into a matching-grant program to get another $100 million for their overpriced stuff :-/ Long ago, a fellow was so pissed off with his Vydek word processor that he sponsored a floppy-flinging contest for his stock of 8" floppies. We ought to have a similar contest for Iomega products! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 01:26:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 02:26:43 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120420223103.GB386@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F9193DB.5332.1DD6CD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F925323.4010308@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2012 01:57 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > See sure the 555 can do it > > http://hackaday.com/tag/555/ > > one seems to be building the computer from the 555's A absolutely LOVE the 555 footstool on that page! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 01:46:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 02:46:31 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> On 04/20/2012 11:32 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > Long ago, a fellow was so pissed off with his Vydek > word processor that he sponsored a floppy-flinging contest > for his stock of 8" floppies. > We ought to have a similar contest for Iomega products! After they "got suits" their stuff did indeed turn to crap, but let's not forget to give some credit where credit is due. Back In The Day(tm), I used a 20+20 (20MB per cartridge 8") Bernoulli Box daily for about two years, VERY heavy use, and never had any trouble with it. I never even had a cartridge fail, with probably thirty in use. Shortly after that time, my employer was filled to overflowing with 44MB 5.25" Bernoulli Boxes. We had some failures with those, but overall, for removable media, they were extremely reliable. I also used (and continue to use) a lot of Zip disks, the 100MB variety, with very low (almost nonexistent) failure rates. I don't use them anywhere near as often or as "hard" as the others though. Around the time of the Jaz drive was when things started to go wrong. Those things were all but useless; every single one that I knew of died eventually. But before that, their removable mass storage systems were, in my experience, quite good. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 01:50:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 02:50:18 -0400 Subject: Arduino, was: Re: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> References: <7A786ADF-527C-43F1-9261-BFC26DA37CBD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9258AA.10906@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2012 11:00 AM, David Riley wrote: > I was just as mad when management at one of our clients forced us to > use Linux on a little embedded board where the microcontroller was > only going to be used for housekeeping; with a tiny little event loop > for an OS, we could have done the job with a 50 MHz ARM, but instead > we ended up with an 800 MHz PowerPC which caused us no end of trouble > (not least because it was a buggy chip, which is maybe a separate > issue). I like Linux, and I like PowerPCs, but they didn't belong > there. When processor architecture becomes a "business decision", I respectfully submit that you've got bigger problems on your hands than just debugging the PPC system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 01:55:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 02:55:05 -0400 Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9259C9.8070601@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2012 03:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm right there with you on that...but I think that, with Arduinos in >> particular, there is a net gain. FAR FAR more people are into >> electronics and microcontrollers than would've been without that >> platform, and SOME of those people "take off the training wheels" and > > I wonder just how many extra people 'take off the training wheels' (that > is, take an Arduino and then go further) over and above those who would > get itno electronics/microcontrollers/whatever no matter what. Indeed, nearly ALL of them that I've met. I do know of a couple that haven't...but most have. It's not as bleak a picture as you're painting. Many of these kids have never heard of a 555...and THAT IS NOT THEIR FAULT. There are chips, tools, techniques, etc that I have never heard of. There are even some that YOU have never heard of. I know about 555s because I grew up hacking with them, and I've designed them into commercial products as recently as 2005. If you don't like the situation, and think (as I do) that more of these kids should know about the 555, then put up a web page...present a seminar...do SOMETHING to introduce them to it. In my experience, people like the ones we're discussing would welcome that with open arms and boundless gratitude, then you'll see them all building cool things with 555s. > My guess is that it's small. Yes, because you're extremely pessimistic and refuse to see anything even remotely "new" (which microcontrollers most certainly are not) as being anything other that pure evil. ;) Look, Tony. I'm every bit as curmudgeonly as you are. But sometimes, you've got to open your eyes and see that there are some good things happening. I mean no disrespect by this; it's just the truth. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 07:59:33 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:59:33 +0100 Subject: VAX on Reddit Message-ID: Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." Pictures: http://www.reddit.com/tb/sl3ll Comments: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sl3ll/23_year_old_computer_still_in_daily_use_at_a/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 09:37:15 2012 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 10:37:15 -0400 Subject: $10 dollar Macs Message-ID: <4F92C61B.1030804@gmail.com> I know most of you dont believe that I have anything, But the truth is I do, I work in ewaste and im trying to move the excess apple stuff so I can make more room for the incoming apple II stuff. $10 dollar LC 575 machines, Some 550s, 1 or 2 580s and a 520- These are Local Pickup in Person 8 G3 All in one Macs- AKA Molar Macs $20 dollars each- These are Local Pickup in Person Performa/Power Mac 5400/5500s $25 each.. All have AV System with still boxed TV Tuner and remote- Local Pickup in person- too heavy and too akward to ship Apple //e's $20 dollars each Monitor //s $20 dollars each Apple IIGS Monitors $25 each 80mb 50 pin SCSI Drives $15 each shipped Apple Extended Keyboard IIs $15 each For those of you who dont believe me, heres some pics to prove it http://www.flickr.com/photos/67970316 at N08/sets/72157629866466539/ All for pickup near flint michigan. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Apr 21 09:42:25 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:42:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120418120907.GE26253@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120418192646.7496526f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Apr 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > well it ended at 1500 euros was not me who won it hopefully a museum got > it. woulda been nice to have for the space i am aquiring stuff for in the Can't think of a museum since it's where it comes from, and no computer museum in Germany I know would pay that much for something like that (most computer museums don't have that much money to spend, if any at all). Christian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 10:44:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 08:44:59 -0700 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> References: , <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2012 at 2:46, Dave McGuire wrote: > Around the time of the Jaz drive was when things started to go wrong. > Those things were all but useless; every single one that I knew of died > eventually. But before that, their removable mass storage systems > were, in my experience, quite good. Well, you now know of two more Jaz drives that work just fine today. I've still got a 1GB Jaz hooked up to an AT&T 6300 that's still is in service. But, for that matter, I still have a Syquest Sparq drive in service. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any Syquest 44MB removable drives still in operation. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 10:59:36 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 10:59:36 -0500 Subject: NOVA 1200 on ebay Germany In-Reply-To: References: <20120413103648.Horde.16GUeqQd9PdPh_WgRRn1vCA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120418084000.8ba13574.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120418120907.GE26253@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120418192646.7496526f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: true From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 11:03:38 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 11:03:38 -0500 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: mts alstream still has a vax in service that runs its billing system from what i have herd from friends that work there. its under lock and key cause anytime anyone has ever walked in the room its crashed so they're scared to go near it its so integrated into their system its cheaper to just leave it alone From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 11:34:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F923701.8070202@neurotica.com> <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120421090439.H74331@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Mouse wrote: > Other OSes too; I have an ISA-to-PCMCIA (or possibly PCCard; I'm > unclear on the details of the differences) card PCMCIA (Personal Computer Memory Card Industry Association) became People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms. So, they changed their usable unique name to PC-Card, so that there could be almost infinite confusion with every other product in the world. Such as "Printed Circuit Card" (what is the difference between a "board" and a "card"?) "personal Computer Card" (such as MDA, MDP, CGA, EGA, VGA, PGA, FDC, HDC, etc.) Thus shifting the problem from a unique but awkward and lacking in intrinsic meaning acronym to a meaningless and information free term that was ALSO already in wide uses for many other items, rendering the term unsuitable for any kind of use at all. But, it's nothing new. what is a "COM" file? CPM? "SIM"? Kids will feel free to misappropriate names for items using valid and/or significant names from anything that preceeded their coming into the field, simply because those names have little or no significance to THEM, and they have no respect for anybody who was already in the field before they arrived. ("Steve Jobs invented personal computers (back before the dawn of time - Wozniak worked for him to implement Jobs' ideas), SCSI, 3(SIC) inch disks, Lazer(SIC) printers, computer graphics, GUI, mice, music players, telephones, and tablets! We wouldn't have ANY of those things without him!") You MUST get them off of your lawn! Cane them! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 11:43:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F925323.4010308@neurotica.com> References: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120420223103.GB386@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F9193DB.5332.1DD6CD3@cclist.sydex.com> <4F925323.4010308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120421093934.J74331@shell.lmi.net> "To a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a . . . " THUMB. If I needed to build a doorbell controller TODAY, it would be quicker, easier (and CHEAPER) for me to build it out of a 5170 than a 555 or Arduino. But it would be embarrassing. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 12:03:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 10:03:11 -0700 Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <20120421090439.H74331@shell.lmi.net> References: , <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120421090439.H74331@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9285DF.12602.5101F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2012 at 9:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > Thus shifting the problem from a unique but awkward and lacking in > intrinsic meaning acronym to a meaningless and information free term > that was ALSO already in wide uses for many other items, rendering the > term unsuitable for any kind of use at all. I note that I can purchase for less than a sawbuck, a USB "flash card" reader/writer. So it not only creates bits of cardboard with printing such as "2 + 3 =", but it also reads such bits of cardboard... I knew it was only a matter of time... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 12:04:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 10:04:04 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120421093934.J74331@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4F925323.4010308@neurotica.com>, <20120421093934.J74331@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F928614.10467.51D15F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2012 at 9:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > If I needed to build a doorbell controller TODAY, it would be quicker, > easier (and CHEAPER) for me to build it out of a 5170 than a 555 or > Arduino. But it would be embarrassing. What's a "doorbell controller"? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 21 12:18:16 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 10:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F928614.10467.51D15F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4F925323.4010308@neurotica.com>, <20120421093934.J74331@shell.lmi.net> <4F928614.10467.51D15F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Apr 2012 at 9:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> If I needed to build a doorbell controller TODAY, it would be quicker, >> easier (and CHEAPER) for me to build it out of a 5170 than a 555 or >> Arduino. But it would be embarrassing. > > What's a "doorbell controller"? > A button. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 12:35:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:35:07 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <564EFACC-1474-4D70-B187-0DE67AD4A136@gmail.com> On Apr 21, 2012, at 2:46 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I also used (and continue to use) a lot of Zip disks, the 100MB > variety, with very low (almost nonexistent) failure rates. I don't use > them anywhere near as often or as "hard" as the others though. I also had great success with Zip disks back in the day when 100MB was all there was; I never had one fail, and I used them a LOT. They were significantly more reliable than floppies at the time. I never bothered going beyond the 100 MB ones, because at that point CDRs were becoming economical enough that if I needed to transport something that large, I'd just burn a CD. > Around the time of the Jaz drive was when things started to go wrong. > Those things were all but useless; every single one that I knew of died > eventually. But before that, their removable mass storage systems were, > in my experience, quite good. I had *atrocious* experiences with Jaz drives. They seemed to be the best way to destroy your backups. They also tended to die right at the worst time. I know other people with the inverse experience, but I was never particularly pleased with them (other than their raw performance as a removable drive, which was pretty good). - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 21 12:37:42 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:37:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <20120421090439.H74331@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F923701.8070202@neurotica.com> <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120421090439.H74331@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201204211737.NAA18765@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] an ISA-to-PCMCIA (or possibly PCCard; I'm unclear on the >> details of the differences) card [...] > PCMCIA (Personal Computer Memory Card Industry Association) became > People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms. Yes, I've seen that. Of course, even PCMCIA proper long since ceased to be about memory and became I/O in general.... > So, they changed their usable unique name to PC-Card, so that there > could be almost infinite confusion with every other product in the > world. Well, I know some cards are mechanically different, so that a card of type X can't be plugged into a socket of type Y (though the converse works fine). I'm not sure which is X and which is Y - I thought one was PCMCIA and one was PCCard, but I'm not sure of even that much - and I'm not sure what the differences are besides mechanical, though I've heard enough to make me think there are such differences. > You MUST get them off of your lawn! Cane them! Indeed. And don't get me started about "DB9" connectors! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 21 12:49:14 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 10:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <564EFACC-1474-4D70-B187-0DE67AD4A136@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Apr 21, 12 01:35:07 pm" Message-ID: <201204211749.q3LHnEUC13107258@floodgap.com> > > I also used (and continue to use) a lot of Zip disks, the 100MB > > variety, with very low (almost nonexistent) failure rates. I don't use > > them anywhere near as often or as "hard" as the others though. > > I also had great success with Zip disks back in the day when 100MB was > all there was; I never had one fail, and I used them a LOT. They were > significantly more reliable than floppies at the time. Yep, the Zip was the best way to set up a sneakernet. Before I had hardline Internet at home and just dialed up, I would take Zips to work, download stuff and take the disks home. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Diamonds are forever. ------------------------------------------------------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 13:23:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 11:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <201204211737.NAA18765@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F923701.8070202@neurotica.com> <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120421090439.H74331@shell.lmi.net> <201204211737.NAA18765@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120421111220.L74331@shell.lmi.net> > >> [...] an ISA-to-PCMCIA (or possibly PCCard; I'm unclear on the > >> details of the differences) card [...] On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Mouse wrote: > Well, I know some cards are mechanically different, so that a card of > type X can't be plugged into a socket of type Y (though the converse > works fine). I'm not sure which is X and which is Y - I thought one > was PCMCIA and one was PCCard, but I'm not sure of even that much - and > I'm not sure what the differences are besides mechanical, though I've > heard enough to make me think there are such differences. It started off with Poqet using them, before they were completely standardized and NAMED. Is Poqet "PCMCIA"? Almost. Maybe. Sometimes. Then, the major difference for a long time was just the THICKNESS! A "type 2" card is too thick to fit in a "type 1" slot. I'm sure that as they started using it as a BUS, for network cards, modems, etc., that additional incompatabilites were developed. > And don't get me started about "DB9" connectors! Although there can be alternate pinnings, to me THAT means a DB25, with pins 1 through 8 and 20. "DB15" is worse! Is that a DA15 or a DE15? I once needed a DE15 to DA15 adapter to "repair" a video projector whose cable had been abused. (I did not want to risk having a college administrator catch me soldering, and wanted "non-adapting" cables so that unqualified staff could do the next repair) The EBay vendor insisted on calling it DB15 to DB15! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 13:45:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:45:47 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2012 11:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Around the time of the Jaz drive was when things started to go wrong. >> Those things were all but useless; every single one that I knew of died >> eventually. But before that, their removable mass storage systems >> were, in my experience, quite good. > > Well, you now know of two more Jaz drives that work just fine today. > I've still got a 1GB Jaz hooked up to an AT&T 6300 that's still is in > service. But, for that matter, I still have a Syquest Sparq drive in > service. Wow, that's pretty unusual in my experience. I'm glad you had better results with them! > On the other hand, I'm not aware of any Syquest 44MB removable drives > still in operation. Oh I remember those. I've never actually used one though. A friend had a couple, not sure what kind of luck he had with them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 13:48:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:48:27 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <201204211749.q3LHnEUC13107258@floodgap.com> References: <201204211749.q3LHnEUC13107258@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F9300FB.8060805@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2012 01:49 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I also used (and continue to use) a lot of Zip disks, the 100MB >>> variety, with very low (almost nonexistent) failure rates. I don't use >>> them anywhere near as often or as "hard" as the others though. >> >> I also had great success with Zip disks back in the day when 100MB was >> all there was; I never had one fail, and I used them a LOT. They were >> significantly more reliable than floppies at the time. > > Yep, the Zip was the best way to set up a sneakernet. Before I had hardline > Internet at home and just dialed up, I would take Zips to work, download stuff > and take the disks home. I did exactly that with 44MB Bernoullis. :-) That was a bit earlier, though...we had dialup access at work (shell account, not PPP or SLIP, transferred stuff with zmodem), I had no connectivity at all at home. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 13:49:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:49:48 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <564EFACC-1474-4D70-B187-0DE67AD4A136@gmail.com> References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <564EFACC-1474-4D70-B187-0DE67AD4A136@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F93014C.9070600@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2012 01:35 PM, David Riley wrote: >> I also used (and continue to use) a lot of Zip disks, the 100MB >> variety, with very low (almost nonexistent) failure rates. I don't use >> them anywhere near as often or as "hard" as the others though. > > I also had great success with Zip disks back in the day when 100MB was > all there was; I never had one fail, and I used them a LOT. They were > significantly more reliable than floppies at the time. > > I never bothered going beyond the 100 MB ones, because at that point > CDRs were becoming economical enough that if I needed to transport > something that large, I'd just burn a CD. I made the same transition for the most part, but kept my Zip disks around, and have recently started to collect some more. I'm planning to use them on PDP-11s as removable boot media. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 13:51:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:51:54 -0400 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9301CA.6090508@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2012 12:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > mts alstream still has a vax in service that runs its billing system from > what i have herd from friends that work there. its under lock and key cause > anytime anyone has ever walked in the room its crashed so they're scared to > go near it its so integrated into their system its cheaper to just leave it > alone Crashes?? That's not too common for that sort of box. There's something very wrong with it if it's that unstable. Almost definitely something that can be fixed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 21 13:52:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:52:17 -0400 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9301E1.5000605@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2012 08:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a > silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." > > Pictures: > http://www.reddit.com/tb/sl3ll > > Comments: > http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sl3ll/23_year_old_computer_still_in_daily_use_at_a/ Very cool. And not at all unusual, which apparently surprises many people. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 14:04:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 12:04:11 -0700 Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <20120421111220.L74331@shell.lmi.net> References: , <201204211737.NAA18765@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120421111220.L74331@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F92A23B.1093.BFC9D6@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2012 at 11:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > > And don't get me started about "DB9" connectors! > > Although there can be alternate pinnings, to me THAT means a DB25, > with pins 1 through 8 and 20. The D-sub letter-shell-size thing is incomplete. What do you call a 19 pin D-sub? They're typically referred to as a "DB-19", but the shell is smaller than a DB and larger than a DA. These were used, for example, on Atari ST ACSI connections. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 14:10:39 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:10:39 -0500 Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <20120421090439.H74331@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F923701.8070202@neurotica.com> <201204210440.AAA07688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120421090439.H74331@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F93062F.3020103@gmail.com> On 04/21/2012 11:34 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Kids will feel free to misappropriate names for items using valid and/or > significant names from anything that preceeded their coming into the > field, simply because those names have little or no significance to THEM, > and they have no respect for anybody who was already in the field before > they arrived. ("Steve Jobs invented personal computers (back before the > dawn of time - Wozniak worked for him to implement Jobs' ideas) My youngest daughter brought home some homework the other day which talked about Jobs and Wozniak inventing the PC (although Wozniak was spelled with an s rather than a z), so this kind of stuff is being taught to them in schools... I think it's difficult to put right though, unless you have a kid who's really into the subject; they don't care enough about the information that it matters to them whether it's correct or not. cheers Jules From barythrin at yahoo.com Sat Apr 21 14:06:58 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 12:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F9300FB.8060805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1335035218.95291.YahooMailClassic@web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Who made the original 1GB (Maybe 2GB?)drive cartridge drive? I was going to say they were a good product from what I recall but later Iomega bought them out and trashed the product (I think they may have renamed the Syquest drives to Jazz or something). But yes, the 100MB zip drives in my experience were quite reliable. The horror stories I heard later with the damaged disks tearing the read arm, etc were with the later models from what I recall. - John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 14:17:12 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:17:12 -0500 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F9300FB.8060805@neurotica.com> References: <201204211749.q3LHnEUC13107258@floodgap.com> <4F9300FB.8060805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F9307B8.3070501@gmail.com> On 04/21/2012 01:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/21/2012 01:49 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> I also used (and continue to use) a lot of Zip disks, the 100MB >>>> variety, with very low (almost nonexistent) failure rates. I don't use >>>> them anywhere near as often or as "hard" as the others though. >>> >>> I also had great success with Zip disks back in the day when 100MB was >>> all there was; I never had one fail, and I used them a LOT. They were >>> significantly more reliable than floppies at the time. >> >> Yep, the Zip was the best way to set up a sneakernet. Before I had hardline >> Internet at home and just dialed up, I would take Zips to work, download stuff >> and take the disks home. > > I did exactly that with 44MB Bernoullis. :-) I did the same with SCSI drives at one point; I had SCSI on the machines at home, and it wasn't a big deal to drop a SCSI HBA into one of the machines at work and just sneakernet a drive back and forth. I never found CD to be particularly reliable, and at that point in time there wasn't really anything else for moving reasonable amounts of data (I did try DAT, but that seemed quite error-prone too). My home 'net connection was fast enough that "floppy-sized" chunks of data I could just transport by FTP or email. cheers Jules From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 14:13:53 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:13:53 -0500 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <4F9301CA.6090508@neurotica.com> References: <4F9301CA.6090508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: it does not do it if no one walks in the room so who knows could just be a loose wire or somthing lol On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/21/2012 12:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > mts alstream still has a vax in service that runs its billing system from > > what i have herd from friends that work there. its under lock and key > cause > > anytime anyone has ever walked in the room its crashed so they're scared > to > > go near it its so integrated into their system its cheaper to just leave > it > > alone > > Crashes?? That's not too common for that sort of box. There's > something very wrong with it if it's that unstable. Almost definitely > something that can be fixed. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 14:14:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 12:14:14 -0700 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> References: , <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F92A496.23533.C8FF04@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2012 at 14:45, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh I remember those. I've never actually used one though. A friend > had a couple, not sure what kind of luck he had with them. Heh, I have a Jaz drive mounted in a Syquest SQ555 external case. I seem to recall that the earlier Syquest drives were an odd size-- narrower than a 5.25" drive, but wider than a 3.5" drive. At one time Halted had a bunch of dual-drive cases with power supply for very cheap. I got one home and discovered that it could be made to work, but only with a fair amount of sheet metal rework. --Chuck From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:16:00 2012 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:16:00 +0100 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901cd1ff3$30cc6cf0$926546d0$@co.uk> > My expeirence is that more compelx ICs are noticably less reliable than > simple ones. That's much too simple analysis even if it were correct. Failure rates in ICs are primarily down to processing, packaging and handling (and to a lesser extent die area), not complexity. > > I would think the 555 had a much better lifetime than any > microcontrolelr > therefore. You would be wrong however. Today's ICs have a much better lifetime. Statistically today's commercial grade ICs have a significantly better lifetime than military grade ICs of the 555 era. > > The origianl 555 (as opposed to the 7555, etc) is large-ish junciton > bipolar and thus less likely to suffer static damage than a MOS > microcotnroller. It also has a much wider supply votaeg range and is > less > likely to be damaged by supply problems. That's not a definition of reliability - it's one of robustness. Within their specifications the 555 would be less reliable (IMHO of course). > > And of coruse if a microcontroller fails, unless you have the program > to > put into it, you're stuck. If a 555 fails, well, there's a tube of 50 > in > my spares box. And I cna go to any number of suppliers anf buy one. > Agreed, but off-topic ;o) > -tony > Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 21 14:26:11 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 12:26:11 -0700 Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <4F92A23B.1093.BFC9D6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201204211737.NAA18765@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120421111220.L74331@shell.lmi.net> <4F92A23B.1093.BFC9D6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9309D3.1020702@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The D-sub letter-shell-size thing is incomplete. What do you call a > 19 pin D-sub? They're typically referred to as a "DB-19", but the > shell is smaller than a DB and larger than a DA. These were used, > for example, on Atari ST ACSI connections. And for external floppy connectors. Apple used the 19 position, and the Amiga used the even less common 23-position. I've seen references to 17 and 21 position, but don't know of any common applications. I don't think there was a letter designation for those shell sizes. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 21 14:36:37 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:36:37 -0400 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <4F9301E1.5000605@neurotica.com> References: <4F9301E1.5000605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F930C45.30907@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/04/12 2:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/21/2012 08:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a >> silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." >> >> Pictures: >> http://www.reddit.com/tb/sl3ll >> >> Comments: >> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sl3ll/23_year_old_computer_still_in_daily_use_at_a/ > > Very cool. And not at all unusual, which apparently surprises many > people. > > -Dave > i.e. people under 40. --Toby From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 21 14:39:29 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 12:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <4F92A23B.1093.BFC9D6@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 21, 12 12:04:11 pm" Message-ID: <201204211939.q3LJdT5u14352416@floodgap.com> > > > And don't get me started about "DB9" connectors! > > > > Although there can be alternate pinnings, to me THAT means a DB25, > > with pins 1 through 8 and 20. > > The D-sub letter-shell-size thing is incomplete. What do you call a > 19 pin D-sub? They're typically referred to as a "DB-19", but the > shell is smaller than a DB and larger than a DA. These were used, > for example, on Atari ST ACSI connections. I called it "Tramiel bleeds consumers with another lousy proprietary vertically integrated standard." But that was rather long. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A battle avoided cannot be lost. -- Sun Tzu -------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:02:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:02:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120420191929.GA86764@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Apr 20, 12 09:19:29 pm Message-ID: > I'm thinkering to build an small Epromer for just one single sort > of Eproms (Am27C291/CY7C291..) and I'm desingning in a =B5A723 currently. > What about his chip? It is old like stoneage and still in production.. I was amazed to discover there's even an RoHS-compliant version of the TO110 (10 lead metal can) one. I needed to repalce such a device on a PCB that had 10 pads in a circle (so kludging the DIL version in would haev been a problem). It wasn't cheap, but at least I could stil lget it. Oh, the device.... An HP11305 disk controller for the HP9830. One day I'll get the 'cable' to link the computer nad controller and then I can really have some fun. > Unfortunately I'm unable to emulate it's functionality with the Amtega32 > that will be go in that promer (No, Im not going to build an buck convert= > er > out of an Atmega Timer), but for sure I'm generating the program > pulse length not with a 555... My first EPROM programmer, which I built about 25 years ago couldn't yse a microcontrolelr or even a microprocessor. There were no microcontrolelrs abck then that you could program with an SPI or JTAG interfave, they all programemd a bit like EPROMs. And of course if I'd used a microprocessor I'd haev needed an EPROM to store the cotnrol program. The problem being that without a programmmer, there was no way for me to program that EPROM or microcontroller... Anywy, it ended up as a couple of boars of logic ICs. I think I used a 74121 to generate the programming pulse. Not having a logic analyser at the time, or even a well-calibrated 'scope, I set the pusle width by clocking the input to the '121 at a known frequency (I think I divided down a crystal) and measured the duty cycle of the output by the simple method of measuring the average voltage there. Amazingly the thing worked, I prgrammed many EPROMs on it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:14:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:14:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 20, 12 03:39:19 pm Message-ID: > As for metal film resistors - just the fact that they exist on the board > makes them unreliable and yield killing. Old saying - the most reliable > parts are the ones that are not there. That has to rate as one of the most stupid thigns I have ever read.. It is wrong on so many levels... I cna think of many times when removing components reduces reliability. Setting aisde the 'sillies' -- like removing a zener diode so the PSU output goes sky-high and ruins all the ICs, consider compoents designed to protect the device from transients on input lines. Without them, the device might well work fine for many months, then ther'es an inductively-coupled spike on one of the cables and bye-bye expensive IC. Alternatively, you may add extra compopnents so that they all work within their design ratings. I will accept that 2 resistors in series are less reliable than a single reissotr. But the startup resisotr in most SMPSUs does consist of a 2 components in seires. They're often around 100k a time. This is not for power disipation reasons, it's because there is a maximum voltage tyhat resisotrs will withstand. And it would be exceeded by the votlage acrss the startup rsistor. I gues there are speical HV reisusotrs, but they are not common and rarely used here. In fact a logical corrollery of minimising the component count would be to remoove all crowbar circuits. After all, they do nothing most of the time, and they can malfucntion and trip in error, But I am sure glad they're there when needed. Or remocving other safety circuits. My laser printer has a fairly complex circuit to prevent the fuser from overheating if soemthing fails inthe control system. In fact, it's malfunctioning at the momnet, and in that sense it's unrelaible, but I am certainly not going to improve reliability by permanently disabling it. The other heing is that not all components are equally reliable. I think we would all agree that thigns with mechanical contacts --connectors, switches and relays are a lot less reliable than semiconductors. And that electrolytic capacitors, for all I don't beleive the witch-hunt normally directed against them, are lses reliable thean polystyrene capacitors. Now, my expeirenice, gained form working on many thousands of devices over the last 40 years is that complex ICs are noticeably less reliable than simpler ones. Microprocessors and microcontrollers do fail more often than 555s. And metal film reissotrs hardly ever fail. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:16:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:16:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 20, 12 03:46:40 pm Message-ID: > > > The discussion is almost nonsense :-) > > > > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 > > Land mines. Last time i checked, 555s, did not contain any form of explosive or detonator... I could make a stupid comment about the other sort of 555, the blue cabinet on scopemobile next to me, but... > > or there is one > > that only uses a micro. > > Children's toys. These being for children who have some kind of electronic interface built in that direclty conencts to the I/O pins on the microcotnroller? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:20:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:20:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Apr 20, 12 04:59:06 pm Message-ID: > > > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 > > Actually I recall a 70's hobbyist homebrew optical paper tape reader > (in BYTE?) where the Schmitt Trigger for each photodiode was nothing but > a 555, NOT BEING USED AS A TIMER, just as a Schmitt Trigger. Unlike > using real "schmitt trigger" parts the 555 had a built in resistor > network that set trip points to 1/3 and 2/3 Vcc with no external parts. There's a hand-pulled commerical tape reader like that shown in the 'S100 Handbook'. A scehamtic is give, but the ICs are given a hose number only (all are the same). They are clearly 555s from the pinout, I assume they were selected to have the right thresholds. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:29:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:29:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 20, 12 03:13:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 20 Apr 2012 at 21:19, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 nor there is > > one that only uses a micro. So what? > > Is that true? I routinely use an 8-pin PIC to develop a READY/ > signal from the INDEX/ signal on a floppy drive. Other than +5 for > power supply, it requires no components. I could have done the same YEs it does! It requires the components on the floppy drive logic board. More seriosuly, how do you drive the Ready/ pin on the itneface conenctor? Can the microcontroller sink enough current? and how do you gate it with the drive select? If you're doing it i nthe microcontroller, i can see problems with some controllers that poll the drivses repeatedly looking for a change of state of the ready/ line. > thing with a 555 or two, but I'd have to add R and C to make it work. Unless you stick a copy of the PCI source code ot every drive chassis, I know which I'd rather be faced with... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:32:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:32:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120420222735.GA386@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Apr 21, 12 00:27:35 am Message-ID: [paper tape reader] > Yes, one can use the AD Converter with the integrated Multiplexer from so= > me > micros, but... Guys...What do you want to say? Should I build the entire I am wodnering if youy can do enough conversions/second to reliably read tape at 500 cps (or even 1000 cps) withotu skwe problems. > logic of the Paper tape reader out of 555's? The control logic for most of my high-speed tape readers is only 4 or 5 DTL ICs.... Why make things complicated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:36:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:36:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <01OEK4NT0RJ6002AW6@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Apr 21, 12 00:25:07 am Message-ID: > > > > >> I've got a SCSI scanner plugged in to a MicroVAX 4000. Using the open source > >> "sane" portable scanning package, suitably tweaked for VMS, I can scan quite > > > >That 'suitably tweaked for VMS' worries me a little. I am not a > >programmer, I am not sure I could do things like that. > > > > I'm not a programmer either but I never let that stop me. Actually, it wouldn't stop me either,except for the fact that I've got plenty of more enjoyable nad useful thigns to be doing... > >In any case there are really only 2 clases of VAXen I would want to try > >running. One is the 11/780 and its brothers (11/782, 11/785), the other > >is the 11/730 (and I guess 11/725). The former is too large for me to > >accomodate at the moment, so it would have to be the latter. And I > >suspect Unibus SCSI cards are not easy to find anyway... > > > > You could always build one :-) Err, yes.... Building a n 11/780 wouldn't solve the space problem (it would be about the same size). I guess I could try to re-implelent the 11/730 with statci RAM i nthe control store, but it's not somehting I have time for at the momnent. > > > > >In any case, thos diesn;t get round the problem (for me) of fidnign a > >scanner I could repair. > > > > I think we've addressed all the other difficulties. We can't be expected to > cover everything :-) Since this whoole thing revolces around me having a scanner, I think we should trakc that down first and then consider what I could connect it to. After all, if ti's well-enough docuemtned for me to be able to repair it, I doubt that interfacign it will be a big problem... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 14:41:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:41:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <64B15D89-740E-458E-9700-09D5DBC0085A@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 20, 12 07:47:17 pm Message-ID: > >> There is no Application jou can just build out of a 555 Your applicaiton nbeeds several 555s, not one :-) > > > > You can use them as an alarm system, scattering them upside-down > around the fridge, for detecting when kids in bare feet sneak downstairs > for a midnight snack... ;-) I am told that one of the most common injuries caused by an electrical device in the UK is standing on the pins of an upturned BS1363 mains plug.... > > True, but LEGOs are much cheaper. :-) I am nto totlally convinced of that, based on the prices that Lego and 555s seem to sell for, I rememebr many years ago being in Maplin in Bristol when a lady asled for 'a couple of your smallest chips, I don't care what they do'. It turned out she was a sculptress (or some similar artist) and needed them for that sort of work. I can't remembr if 741s or 555s were cheaper at the time eitehr :-). I do rememebr dgetting a large box of defective ICs sent to her from the lab, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 15:15:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:15:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F928614.10467.51D15F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 12 10:04:04 am Message-ID: > What's a "doorbell controller"? A momnetary-actionm push-to-make (form A) single pole switch? I haev a couple of new ones hwere with Heath/Zentih logos on the packaging... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 15:16:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:16:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120421093934.J74331@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 21, 12 09:43:17 am Message-ID: > If I needed to build a doorbell controller TODAY, it would be quicker, > easier (and CHEAPER) for me to build it out of a 5170 than a 555 or > Arduino. > But it would be embarrassing. Wouldn't it be easier to use a 5150? You've got the cassette motor relay which you could then use energise the bell. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 15:20:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:20:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <20120421111220.L74331@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 21, 12 11:23:46 am Message-ID: > "DB15" is worse! Is that a DA15 or a DE15? I once needed a DE15 to I think that's the only one where there is confusion.. I've beenm using a lo to DA15s eecently (for a non-computer application). The local electrornics shop didn't hve a clue what I meant by 'DA15' It turns out they call them 'DB15 Two Row' (as opposed to 'DB15 Three Row' which are DE15s, of course). ARGH! [It was difficut for me to type DB15....] > DA15 adapter to "repair" a video projector whose cable had been abused. > (I did not want to risk having a college administrator catch me soldering, Why ever not? > and wanted "non-adapting" cables so that unqualified staff could do the > next repair) The EBay vendor insisted on calling it DB15 to DB15! I give up! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 15:02:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:02:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: uP solutions In-Reply-To: <4F9259C9.8070601@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 21, 12 02:55:05 am Message-ID: > > I wonder just how many extra people 'take off the training wheels' (that > > is, take an Arduino and then go further) over and above those who would > > get itno electronics/microcontrollers/whatever no matter what. > > Indeed, nearly ALL of them that I've met. I do know of a couple that Good!. I am not so sure that is the case over here.... Butm FWIW< the only people I know who seriously uses the Arduion boards are electronic enngieeers who are quite capable of making their own stuff, but use them to test out ideas. I am not sure I see the point, but.... > haven't...but most have. It's not as bleak a picture as you're > painting. Many of these kids have never heard of a 555...and THAT IS > NOT THEIR FAULT. There are chips, tools, techniques, etc that I have I am not at all convicned it's 'not their fault'. There are plenty of books,m articles, etc that mention the 555. It's not some secret device. Personally, I feel youshould read up o na subject before working in it. > never heard of. There are even some that YOU have never heard of. I Oh yes, many, many, mant. Problem is, as I've never heard of them, I can';t tekk you waht they are... This is one problem with the lack of paper databooks. At one time I'd read every new datavbook I could get my hands on, just to see what was aviaalble, Of course I mised some deivevs, I couldn't see all the books, but... It's a lot harder, at least for me, to do that on a web page. > know about 555s because I grew up hacking with them, and I've designed > them into commercial products as recently as 2005. > > If you don't like the situation, and think (as I do) that more of > these kids should know about the 555, then put up a web page...present a One day, I really must learn html... But more seriosuly, why would they look at such a web page. I can't believe there aren;'t already web pages about the 555. The data sheet is certianlly on the web, I've looked at it there. > seminar...do SOMETHING to introduce them to it. In my experience, You do relaise that I routinely introduce people to electroncis (my flavour of electronics), etc, at HPCC meetings... > people like the ones we're discussing would welcome that with open arms > and boundless gratitude, then you'll see them all building cool things > with 555s. > > > My guess is that it's small. > > Yes, because you're extremely pessimistic and refuse to see anything > even remotely "new" (which microcontrollers most certainly are not) as > being anything other that pure evil. ;) That's not truye. I use microcontrollers. Perhaps not as much as I should do, or as much as others do, but I sue them. I have no problem with them being used when they're the 'right solutuon', for a suitable defintion of 'right'. As I said in a previous message, what is the 'right device' to use depends o na lot of things. It depends on what you, the designer, is used to. If you can calcualtee 555 timer components in your head, and have a good stock of reissotrs and capacitors, that would push a 555 solution. If you have an Arduino board on the bench, the devlopment tools on the PC, and know how to write the code, then that would push that solution. Whether you're making one unit or a production run matters too. For the fomrer, design time tends to dominate, for the latter, it's construction time. So ofr the former, using extra components to get a design that works canb b the right thing to do. For the latter taking the time to get it into a microcontrolelr can be the right thing to do too. What I am really moaning aobut is not people who use microcontrollers (you wound't find me complainign there's on in a DiskFerret, or that that there's one in a PS/2 keyboard to soemthing-else interface or...), but people wh say 'Oh you cna do that with a microcontorller (or an Arduino) without (a) actually doing it (they might well find there are problems), and (b) without considering other options at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 15:26:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:26:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <4F92A23B.1093.BFC9D6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 12 12:04:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 21 Apr 2012 at 11:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > And don't get me started about "DB9" connectors! > > > > Although there can be alternate pinnings, to me THAT means a DB25, > > with pins 1 through 8 and 20. > > The D-sub letter-shell-size thing is incomplete. What do you call a > 19 pin D-sub? They're typically referred to as a "DB-19", but the I've seen thenm called 'DF19' and 'DG23' (used on the Amiga, IIRC). After all the shell letters are not assigned in order (DE is smllaer than DA). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 15:30:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:30:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <4F93062F.3020103@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 21, 12 02:10:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/21/2012 11:34 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Kids will feel free to misappropriate names for items using valid and/or > > significant names from anything that preceeded their coming into the > > field, simply because those names have little or no significance to THEM, > > and they have no respect for anybody who was already in the field before > > they arrived. ("Steve Jobs invented personal computers (back before the > > dawn of time - Wozniak worked for him to implement Jobs' ideas) > > My youngest daughter brought home some homework the other day which talked > about Jobs and Wozniak inventing the PC (although Wozniak was spelled with > an s rather than a z), so this kind of stuff is being taught to them in > schools... > > I think it's difficult to put right though, unless you have a kid who's > really into the subject; they don't care enough about the information that > it matters to them whether it's correct or not. > > cheers > > Jules > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 15:31:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:31:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <4F93062F.3020103@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 21, 12 02:10:39 pm Message-ID: > My youngest daughter brought home some homework the other day which talked > about Jobs and Wozniak inventing the PC (although Wozniak was spelled with > an s rather than a z), so this kind of stuff is being taught to them in > schools... Feel free to bring her teacher to me so I can knock some snese into him/her with an HP9830.... One day I really must record all the incorrect stuff I was 'taught' at school. From 'A dried orange is callled an apricot' up to 'The Wheatstone bidge compares resistors, it does not mrasure them' [1]. ARGH! [1] I am stil llooking for a definition of 'measuremnet' that does not involve comparison to a standard.... > > I think it's difficult to put right though, unless you have a kid who's > really into the subject; they don't care enough about the information that > it matters to them whether it's correct or not. Amd that is very worrying.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 21 15:35:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:35:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <000901cd1ff3$30cc6cf0$926546d0$@co.uk> from "Robert Adamson" at Apr 21, 12 08:16:00 pm Message-ID: > > > My expeirence is that more compelx ICs are noticably less reliable than > > simple ones. > > That's much too simple analysis even if it were correct. Failure rates in > ICs are primarily down to processing, packaging and handling (and to a > lesser extent die area), not complexity. I hate to tell you this, but my comments are based on actual, practical, observations. Not 'what the theory says'. In other words, I'ev; had many thousands of things across the bench by now. And I can assure you that complex ICs, modern ones, old ones, whatever, are mcuh more likely to be dead than simpler ones. > > > > I would think the 555 had a much better lifetime than any > > microcontrolelr > > therefore. > > You would be wrong however. Today's ICs have a much better lifetime. > Statistically today's commercial grade ICs have a significantly better > lifetime than military grade ICs of the 555 era. Not based on the ICs I have to replace I'm not... > > > > > The origianl 555 (as opposed to the 7555, etc) is large-ish junciton > > bipolar and thus less likely to suffer static damage than a MOS > > microcotnroller. It also has a much wider supply votaeg range and is > > less > > likely to be damaged by supply problems. > > That's not a definition of reliability - it's one of robustness. Within > their specifications the 555 would be less reliable (IMHO of course). Hmm... I am tlaking abvout the reliabiltiy of the whole system. In other words, how often do I ahve to fix it? What has failed? It may be that the IC has failed because it was essentially misused (supply glitches, whatever), but a device more susceptable to those is likely to lead to prodcut that fails more often. > > > > > And of coruse if a microcontroller fails, unless you have the program > > to > > put into it, you're stuck. If a 555 fails, well, there's a tube of 50 > > in > > my spares box. And I cna go to any number of suppliers anf buy one. > > > > Agreed, but off-topic ;o) It's actualyl a very major consideration for a lot of the designs I do. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 21 16:51:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 14:51:40 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <4F917D15.21046.18474D3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 20, 12 03:13:25 pm, Message-ID: <4F92C97C.30626.159222F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2012 at 20:29, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriosuly, how do you drive the Ready/ pin on the itneface > conenctor? Can the microcontroller sink enough current? and how do you > gate it with the drive select? If you're doing it i nthe > microcontroller, i can see problems with some controllers that poll > the drivses repeatedly looking for a change of state of the ready/ > line. 48 ma enough? I've got 8 pins, 5 of which are programmable high- impedance/input/output and one of which is dedicated input. > Unless you stick a copy of the PCI source code ot every drive chassis, > I know which I'd rather be faced with... At my age, I'll be dead before I need to revisit the code. Still, the code is small enough that I could probably stick an optically- readable bit of bar code on it. Of course, the datasheet for the drive will long have disappeared into the internet netherworld. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 21 17:06:09 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Apr 2012 at 2:46, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Around the time of the Jaz drive was when things started to go wrong. >> Those things were all but useless; every single one that I knew of died >> eventually. But before that, their removable mass storage systems >> were, in my experience, quite good. > > Well, you now know of two more Jaz drives that work just fine today. > I've still got a 1GB Jaz hooked up to an AT&T 6300 that's still is in > service. But, for that matter, I still have a Syquest Sparq drive in > service. > > On the other hand, I'm not aware of any Syquest 44MB removable drives > still in operation. I've been told that Iomega named its products after the noises they made when they fail. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 21 17:10:01 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 15:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <201204211749.q3LHnEUC13107258@floodgap.com> References: <201204211749.q3LHnEUC13107258@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I also used (and continue to use) a lot of Zip disks, the 100MB >>> variety, with very low (almost nonexistent) failure rates. I don't use >>> them anywhere near as often or as "hard" as the others though. >> >> I also had great success with Zip disks back in the day when 100MB was >> all there was; I never had one fail, and I used them a LOT. They were >> significantly more reliable than floppies at the time. > > Yep, the Zip was the best way to set up a sneakernet. Before I had hardline > Internet at home and just dialed up, I would take Zips to work, download stuff > and take the disks home. I did something similar except I used a Sun IPX. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 21 17:51:49 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:51:49 -0400 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F933A05.3030205@verizon.net> On 04/21/2012 08:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a > silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." > > Pictures: > http://www.reddit.com/tb/sl3ll > > Comments: > http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sl3ll/23_year_old_computer_still_in_daily_use_at_a/ > Very common. They have no idea how many of the 50,000++ Bridgeport 3axis mill systems are still running LSI11/2 (KD11) and another 25K of the KDF11 (11/23) out there. I Would guess there are still many of the PDP8 and 8a based units still going. I don't think the San Francisco Cable car system has retired all the pdp8s yet. I have 10 uVAX 3100s of them and they all still run. This is a classic self contained system where changing the host system and redeveloping the software and interfaces is more costly than buying a dozen spares. FYI: the people I'd gotten my uVAX systems from hadn't even gotten them out the door to me and were regretting the PC based boxes for their propensity to fail.. often for hardware and software. "We" often forget how little horsepower is needed to simply fetch the mail! Allison From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sat Apr 21 17:51:22 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:51:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Sneakernet; was Re: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: References: <201204211749.q3LHnEUC13107258@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I did something similar except I used a Sun IPX. You mean you hauled your IPX back and forth? Interesting idea... did you have 2 sets of monitors/keyboards for it, one at work and one at home? Alexey From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 18:09:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120421160655.V83822@shell.lmi.net> > > What's a "doorbell controller"? > A momnetary-actionm push-to-make (form A) single pole switch? I haev a > couple of new ones hwere with Heath/Zentih logos on the packaging... Ah, but if you have two inputs, two outputs, and a third output that should respond to either input, then you may need a pair of diodes, or a MICROCONTROLLER :-? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 18:13:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120421160955.C83822@shell.lmi.net> > > If I needed to build a doorbell controller TODAY, it would be quicker, > > easier (and CHEAPER) for me to build it out of a 5170 than a 555 or > > Arduino. > > But it would be embarrassing. On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Wouldn't it be easier to use a 5150? You've got the cassette motor relay > which you could then use energise the bell. It would, indeed, be far preferable. (and was what I had in mind) But the supply of them is dwindling. I only have one left! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 21 18:31:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120421161403.A83822@shell.lmi.net> > > DA15 adapter to "repair" a video projector whose cable had been abused. > > (I did not want to risk having a college administrator catch me soldering, On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Why ever not? One of my colleagues was "caught" soldering a repair in a college computer lab (that was closed at the time)! That was one of four offenses for which they tried to fire him. The others included telling an "instructor" that he was NOT available to come help her and to learn how to do her own "reset" when the computer was "locked", refusing to change the grade to passing for a student whose program crashed instead of a clean exit to the OS, and removing discarded computers from the dumpster. While he was banned from campus, they removed and destroyed everything in his office, which included a SOL, some Northstars, 6? bookcases of PC Tech Journal, Dr Dobbs, IBM Technical References for all models, etc. (Yes, he DID have the 8514 and EGA trch refs) His office was densely packed, with mostly classic microcomputers. The mediator told them that they did NOT have adequate grounds to fire him, and he has been reinstated. No, I do not want to be caught soldering on campus. From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Apr 21 18:56:06 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 23:56:06 +0000 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <4F933A05.3030205@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 4/21/12 3:51 PM, "allison" wrote: >On 04/21/2012 08:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a >> silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." >> >> Pictures: >> http://www.reddit.com/tb/sl3ll >> >> Comments: >> >>http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sl3ll/23_year_old_computer_st >>ill_in_daily_use_at_a/ >> >Very common. They have no idea how many of the 50,000++ Bridgeport >3axis mill systems >are still running LSI11/2 (KD11) and another 25K of the KDF11 (11/23) >out there. I Would guess >there are still many of the PDP8 and 8a based units still going. I >don't think the San Francisco >Cable car system has retired all the pdp8s yet. > >I have 10 uVAX 3100s of them and they all still run. > >This is a classic self contained system where changing the host system >and redeveloping the >software and interfaces is more costly than buying a dozen spares. > >FYI: the people I'd gotten my uVAX systems from hadn't even gotten them >out the door to me >and were regretting the PC based boxes for their propensity to fail.. >often for hardware and >software. > >"We" often forget how little horsepower is needed to simply fetch the >mail! > >Allison > Funny coincidence: I was just chatting with someone from the University Hospital Nuclear Medicine Unit (at University of Washington) about their PDP-11/23. It's still an integral part of the cyclotron installation they use to generate nuclear materials for medical use as well as neutron beams for cancer therapy. When I first saw the machine a couple of years ago, they were talking about decommissioning it, not because it isn't still rock solid but because the custom interface hardware is getting harder to maintain! They're still using it while they validate a replacement solution. -- Ian From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Apr 21 18:59:25 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:59:25 -0700 Subject: Obsolete Computers in 1983 Message-ID: <000301cd201a$c7f4f350$57ded9f0$@comcast.net> This 1983 InfoWorld has a few articles about Obsolete Computers. It covers the Altair and other S-100 machines. There is a story about someone making an upgrade ROM board for the Processor Technology SOL-20. The Computer Museum was still in Boston. It asks "Will today's Lisas and Radio Shack Model 100s be as priceless to the computer industry as are the Crown Jewels are to England?" InfoWorld June 6, 1983. Pages 27 - 37 http://books.google.com/books?id=zy8EAAAAMBAJ &pg=PA27 Michael Holley From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 21 19:06:36 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sneakernet; was Re: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: References: <201204211749.q3LHnEUC13107258@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, David Griffith wrote: > >> I did something similar except I used a Sun IPX. > > You mean you hauled your IPX back and forth? Interesting idea... did you have > 2 sets of monitors/keyboards for it, one at work and one at home? I ran it headless at both places. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 21 20:08:34 2012 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 02:08:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: another one bites the dust... Message-ID: <1335056914.76594.ymail_j2me@web29606.mail.ird.yahoo.com> --- On Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I assume that NICAM stereo > sound is also dead ;-(. Pity, I > enjoyed > building and aligning the Maplin > decoder kit many years ago. i haven't heard the phrase NICAM stereo since the 90's. It's all Dolby Surround sound now - though i personally don't care for it. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 20:13:15 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:13:15 -0400 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D1311B-F650-4F1A-8E5E-168E32D7C3EE@gmail.com> On Apr 21, 2012, at 3:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> In any case there are really only 2 clases of VAXen I would want to try >>> running. One is the 11/780 and its brothers (11/782, 11/785), the other >>> is the 11/730 (and I guess 11/725). The former is too large for me to >>> accomodate at the moment, so it would have to be the latter. And I >>> suspect Unibus SCSI cards are not easy to find anyway... >>> >> >> You could always build one :-) > > Err, yes.... Building a n 11/780 wouldn't solve the space problem (it > would be about the same size). I guess I could try to re-implelent the > 11/730 with statci RAM i nthe control store, but it's not somehting I > have time for at the momnent. I suspect he meant build the Unibus SCSI card. Not the hardest task in the world, since Unibus isn't even multiplexed... - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 21 20:16:07 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:16:07 -0700 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: <4F9301CA.6090508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: When I was in the Navy there was a Tactical computer system that I was not allowed to touch the keyboard on. If I touched the keyboard, it would crash, otherwise it was nice and stable. The theory was that it was something to do with me, and the metal enclosure holding the keyboard. I didn't have to actually type anything on the keyboard, and it happened multiple times. It didn't happen with anyone else, and I've never had it happen with another computer. Zane At 2:13 PM -0500 4/21/12, Adrian Stoness wrote: >it does not do it if no one walks in the room so who knows could just be a >loose wire or somthing lol > >On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 04/21/2012 12:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> > mts alstream still has a vax in service that runs its billing system from >> > what i have herd from friends that work there. its under lock and key >> cause >> > anytime anyone has ever walked in the room its crashed so they're scared >> to >> > go near it its so integrated into their system its cheaper to just leave >> it >> > alone >> >> Crashes?? That's not too common for that sort of box. There's >> something very wrong with it if it's that unstable. Almost definitely >> something that can be fixed. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jws at jwsss.com Sat Apr 21 20:23:32 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:23:32 -0700 Subject: The sweet smell of old computers Message-ID: <4F935D94.6010904@jwsss.com> I just had a multics front panel come in from Nick Allen, and have to say there is something that makes the house smell nice from the old equipment. Sort of like Cosmoline, only not old machinery or guns. Jim From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Apr 21 20:31:23 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The sweet smell of old computers In-Reply-To: <4F935D94.6010904@jwsss.com> References: <4F935D94.6010904@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, jim s wrote: > I just had a multics front panel come in from Nick Allen, and have to say > there is something that makes the house smell nice from the old equipment. > > Sort of like Cosmoline, only not old machinery or guns. Running keypunches have a distinctive smell, as well. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Apr 21 20:34:27 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:34:27 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2012, at 1:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> My expeirence is that more compelx ICs are noticably less reliable than >>> simple ones. >> >> That's much too simple analysis even if it were correct. Failure rates in >> ICs are primarily down to processing, packaging and handling (and to a >> lesser extent die area), not complexity. > > I hate to tell you this, but my comments are based on actual, practical, > observations. Not 'what the theory says'. OK. How many 1,000,000's of parts have you looked at? What long term statistical analysis have you done? Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples does not yield accurate results. > > In other words, I'ev; had many thousands of things across the bench by > now. And I can assure you that complex ICs, modern ones, old ones, > whatever, are mcuh more likely to be dead than simpler ones. Still a small sample set. > >>> >>> I would think the 555 had a much better lifetime than any >>> microcontrolelr >>> therefore. >> >> You would be wrong however. Today's ICs have a much better lifetime. >> Statistically today's commercial grade ICs have a significantly better >> lifetime than military grade ICs of the 555 era. > > Not based on the ICs I have to replace I'm not? Small sample size. > >> >>> >>> The origianl 555 (as opposed to the 7555, etc) is large-ish junciton >>> bipolar and thus less likely to suffer static damage than a MOS >>> microcotnroller. It also has a much wider supply votaeg range and is >>> less >>> likely to be damaged by supply problems. >> >> That's not a definition of reliability - it's one of robustness. Within >> their specifications the 555 would be less reliable (IMHO of course). > > Hmm... I am tlaking abvout the reliabiltiy of the whole system. In other > words, how often do I ahve to fix it? What has failed? It may be that the > IC has failed because it was essentially misused (supply glitches, > whatever), but a device more susceptable to those is likely to lead to > prodcut that fails more often. All things being equal complexity will *tend* to result in a less reliable system. However, holding all things constant is usually not possible. So making general statements, is a bit of an overgeneralization. I would argue that todays computer systems are *much* more reliable than the systems that were in general use 10-20 (or more) years ago. TTFN - Guy From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 20:47:23 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:47:23 -0300 Subject: VAX on Reddit References: <4F9301CA.6090508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <06a101cd2029$f040f7f0$6600a8c0@tababook> > When I was in the Navy there was a Tactical computer system that I was not > allowed to touch the keyboard on. If I touched the keyboard, it would > crash, otherwise it was nice and stable. The theory was that it was > something to do with me, and the metal enclosure holding the keyboard. I > didn't have to actually type anything on the keyboard, and it happened > multiple times. It didn't happen with anyone else, and I've never had it > happen with another computer. I had a business partner before that happened that to him. Every computer he touched, would crash and wouldn't recover in his hands. Maybe he was full of static, he had lots of body hair and usually would wear nylon From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 21 20:56:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 19:56:46 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Tektronix 1992 catalog Message-ID: Anyone got one? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 21 21:08:58 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples does not yield > accurate results. Neither does assuming that theory matches reality. > I would argue that todays computer systems are *much* more reliable > than the systems that were in general use 10-20 (or more) years ago. On what grounds? It contradicts tony's experience. It contradicts mine as well. Do you have experience pointing the other way? (I would tend to assume not, since if you had I would expect you to have mentioned it by now, but assumptions don't make for good data either.) If you want to argue that there are grounds for thinking they ought to be more reliable, that's a relatively defensible stance. But reality trumps theory, and so far it's looking as though experience is 2-0 in the direction of your theory - or any theory that predicts higher reliability out of today's machines - being an inaccurate description of reality. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Apr 21 21:34:33 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 19:34:33 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> On Apr 21, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples does not yield >> accurate results. > > Neither does assuming that theory matches reality. Except that your reality is a *small* sample set. When you look at data for 1,000,000's of components you'll see different results. Until you look at truly large data sets and do the appropriate statistical analysis all you're really talking about is anecdotal evidence. > >> I would argue that todays computer systems are *much* more reliable >> than the systems that were in general use 10-20 (or more) years ago. > > On what grounds? How 'bout MTBF? > > It contradicts tony's experience. It contradicts mine as well. Do you > have experience pointing the other way? (I would tend to assume not, > since if you had I would expect you to have mentioned it by now, but > assumptions don't make for good data either.) Unfortunately I can't really point to it since it's proprietary to the companies that I've work(ed) for. However, there are a number of papers available (I'll have to dig up citations) on this topic. > > If you want to argue that there are grounds for thinking they ought to > be more reliable, that's a relatively defensible stance. But reality > trumps theory, and so far it's looking as though experience is 2-0 in > the direction of your theory - or any theory that predicts higher > reliability out of today's machines - being an inaccurate description > of reality. > What I'm saying is that until you're looking at truly large populations you can't really derive any significant fact based conclusions. You're talking about anecdotal evidence and opinion. TTFN - Guy From david at classiccomputing.com Sat Apr 21 21:57:55 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:57:55 -0400 Subject: Obsolete Computers in 1983 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2012, at 10:09 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > This 1983 InfoWorld has a few articles about Obsolete Computers. It covers > the Altair and other S-100 machines. There is a story about someone making > an upgrade ROM board for the Processor Technology SOL-20. The Computer > Museum was still in Boston. It asks "Will today's Lisas and Radio Shack > Model 100s be as priceless to the computer industry as are the Crown Jewels > are to England?" > > InfoWorld June 6, 1983. Pages 27 - 37 > > http://books.google.com/books?id=zy8EAAAAMBAJ Very cool, and an interesting article, especially from a 1983 perspective. Did you notice also that the article was co-written by John C. Dvorak? Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society - Author, "The Complete Historically Brewed" - "Classic Computing Show" podcast - "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast - "Retro Computing Roundtable" podcast - "Not Another Apple Podcast" ClassicComputing.com | atlhcs.org From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 22:13:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 23:13:01 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> References: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6F5A2C7B-5D6F-45CE-9F3C-C2A22B616696@gmail.com> On Apr 21, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >>> I would argue that todays computer systems are *much* more reliable >>> than the systems that were in general use 10-20 (or more) years ago. >> >> On what grounds? > > How 'bout MTBF? I think you're arguing about different things. Today's PCs are largely junk and generally less reliable than those of years ago, but I'd say that's more due to poor engineering on the part of the designers of the actual systems. They take shortcuts, don't do proper thermal engineering (which is a lot more important in today's PCs than it was 20 years ago), and generally do a poor enough job that you can't expect an assembled system to last more than about 5 years with any degree of confidence. BGAs, in particular, do a great job of pulling their pins off the board when subjected to thermal cycles; if you don't design your thermal relief well enough, it's one of the best ways to hasten your system's doom. Note that it's not generally the ICs failing in these systems, at least not on their own. It's usually their containers that cause the various failures. Today's high-end systems, though, are much more robust and designed with durability in mind (well, a lot of them, anyway). I'd say you're about as likely to find an IBM Z-series mainframe alive in 30 years as you are to find a VAX alive (not dead due to natural causes, in any case) today. I will cop to MOS being somewhat less resilient to actual abuse than bipolar logic, and things with tinier gates do exacerbate that; beyond that, I seem to recall that smaller geometries are a bit more susceptible to electromigration, and that tends to get worse with higher temperatures. Of course, the actual MTBF data doesn't always bear that out, so I could have been told wrong. - Dave (amusing side note about MTBF: we had a customer who developed a really awful board, but claimed it had an MTBF of over 100 years; it turns out the way they "calculated" this was by adding the MTBFs of the individual components) From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Apr 21 23:32:38 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:32:38 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <6F5A2C7B-5D6F-45CE-9F3C-C2A22B616696@gmail.com> References: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> <6F5A2C7B-5D6F-45CE-9F3C-C2A22B616696@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22A5A8D6-A8BD-4312-9064-31C32A2D97B9@shiresoft.com> On Apr 21, 2012, at 8:13 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 21, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >>> >>>> I would argue that todays computer systems are *much* more reliable >>>> than the systems that were in general use 10-20 (or more) years ago. >>> >>> On what grounds? >> >> How 'bout MTBF? > > I think you're arguing about different things. Today's PCs are largely > junk and generally less reliable than those of years ago, but I'd say > that's more due to poor engineering on the part of the designers of the > actual systems. They take shortcuts, don't do proper thermal > engineering (which is a lot more important in today's PCs than it was > 20 years ago), and generally do a poor enough job that you can't > expect an assembled system to last more than about 5 years with any > degree of confidence. BGAs, in particular, do a great job of pulling > their pins off the board when subjected to thermal cycles; if you don't > design your thermal relief well enough, it's one of the best ways to > hasten your system's doom. Yes, proper engineering is hard for some of this stuff. It's much harder due to several facts including the "race to the bottom" in most of the PC space and that tolerances are tighter which means the margins are less. Thermals are *much* more important now because a) the devices themselves are a bit more sensitive but mainly because b) most "stuff" is jammed into smaller and smaller enclosures and c) cooling is more difficult because of "point" sources which leads back to b) (i.e. ever smaller footprints leads to ever smaller enclosures (wash, rinse, repeat ad nauseam). > > Note that it's not generally the ICs failing in these systems, at least > not on their own. It's usually their containers that cause the various > failures. Yes, and there's always the great example of TI SSI & MSI packages disintegrating after several years. So it's not new. > > Today's high-end systems, though, are much more robust and designed > with durability in mind (well, a lot of them, anyway). I'd say you're > about as likely to find an IBM Z-series mainframe alive in 30 years > as you are to find a VAX alive (not dead due to natural causes, in any > case) today. I was very careful to talk about the "system" and that includes all of the I/O attached. I still argue that today's systems are much more reliable if only from the standpoint of the I/O (specifically disks). > > I will cop to MOS being somewhat less resilient to actual abuse than > bipolar logic, and things with tinier gates do exacerbate that; beyond > that, I seem to recall that smaller geometries are a bit more > susceptible to electromigration, and that tends to get worse with > higher temperatures. Of course, the actual MTBF data doesn't always > bear that out, so I could have been told wrong. All which goes back to my point above which means that proper engineering is required. It's no longer possible with today's systems to just "wire it up". Simulation (logic, thermal, electrical) is necessary to produce a working and reliable system. And in case anyone gets the idea that I'm against simplicity, I'm not. I feel that there needs to be a balance. Proper design and engineering is required for any solution. And to finish off my part in this, classic computers and such are for me a hobby. I do high tech, leading edge stuff as a job and in that role something like the 555 doesn't really have a place (at least in the stuff that I'm doing). While we may have some things that could be done by a 555-like device, there's so much other stuff going on that it's better (from every dimension) to incorporate the functionality into micro's or ASICs (FPGAs and CPLDs are only used for prototypes?they're too costly when you're building x*1,000,000's/quarter). > > > - Dave > > (amusing side note about MTBF: we had a customer who developed a > really awful board, but claimed it had an MTBF of over 100 years; it > turns out the way they "calculated" this was by adding the MTBFs of > the individual components) > Idiots! ;-) TTFN - Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 21 23:38:41 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 23:38:41 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 104, Issue 53 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F938B51.9040203@pico-systems.com> From: allison To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: VAX on Reddit Message-ID: <4F933A05.3030205 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed On 04/21/2012 08:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a > > silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." > > A number of years ago I went out to a plastic molding company to look at a Microvax installation that had been hit by lightning and advise how to rewire the place to avoid similar damage in the future. They took me into their compute room and I was stunned at the contraption they had running there. I stood there gasping and asking "What the HECK is THAT?" Turns out they had this thing that was an off-brand clone of an IBM 1800 running all their presses. I gathered it was a TTL re-implementation of the 1800, but a very old machine at least. (The microvax ran their accounting system.) Jon Jon From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 21 23:36:07 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 06:36:07 +0200 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <4F930C45.30907@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F9301E1.5000605@neurotica.com> <4F930C45.30907@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120422043605.GA13720@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 03:36:37PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: > On 21/04/12 2:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >On 04/21/2012 08:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >>Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a > >>silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." > >> > >>Pictures: > >>http://www.reddit.com/tb/sl3ll > >> > >>Comments: > >>http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sl3ll/23_year_old_computer_still_in_daily_use_at_a/ > > > > Very cool. And not at all unusual, which apparently surprises many > >people. > > > > -Dave > > > > i.e. people under 40. Hey, I'm (not much, admittedly) under 40 and I'm not surprised ;-) DEC built solid systems. A damn shame they're gone. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 23:57:34 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 00:57:34 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> References: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Unfortunately I can't really point to it since it's proprietary to the companies > that I've work(ed) for. Such data is highly guarded by companies, often because it can be embarrassing. It certainly was when I did QA stuff at USR (you know, doing real life manufacturing engineering, instead of sitting in my parent's basement). -- Will From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 22 00:12:01 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Tektronix 1992 catalog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1335071521.2648.YahooMailClassic@web184503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I thought I had every catalog from 1960 to 2000 but I don't have 1992 (or 1972). I do have a 1991-1992 Product Catalog Supplement though. Is there something you want to look up? Bob --- On Sat, 4/21/12, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Wanted: Tektronix 1992 catalog > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, April 21, 2012, 6:56 PM > Anyone got one? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version > available for download > > > ? ? ? Legalize Adulthood! > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 00:32:37 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 01:32:37 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> References: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Except that your reality is a *small* sample set. Also, your reality does not figure the whole lifecycle of the part. You are not considering the failures of parts that happened before whatever the product is shipped off the factory floor. Sometimes the failures are catastrophic, and other times they are latent (ticking time bombs - these are the failures that really suck). Reworking a board lowers the reliability of the parts on it - even innocent bystanders. There is no getting around it. In my metal film resistor example, having them on a board will statistically lower the reliability of surrounding components, because some amount of those resistors will be either flawed from the start or will be placed by the robots poorly. They will require rework, and will cause damage to some number of components that are mounted nearby. Those tiny resistors and caps can be real pains sometime, so every manufacturing engineer is happy to see when they go away. Yield killers, basically. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 00:52:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 00:52:51 -0500 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On the other hand, I'm not aware of any Syquest 44MB removable drives >> still in operation. > > ?Oh I remember those. ?I've never actually used one though. ?A friend > had a couple, not sure what kind of luck he had with them. Back when 50MB on an Amiga was "abundant" (into the early 1990s), I picked up a new Syquest44 drive for somewhere less than $400 including at least one cartridge if not a couple more. I used it daily for many years until 44MB was no longer adequate. It's still sitting in its desk niche, in the same SCSI cabinet as my original sub-1X SCSI CD-ROM drive (NEC CDR74?) It was working the last time I used it, but that's been well over 10 years. I know of other Syquest users with far less happy experiences. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 01:13:21 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 02:13:21 -0400 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <4F933A05.3030205@verizon.net> References: <4F933A05.3030205@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 6:51 PM, allison wrote: > Very common. ?They have no idea how many of the 50,000++ Bridgeport 3axis > mill systems > are still running LSI11/2 (KD11) and another 25K of the KDF11 (11/23) out > there. We had one at our hackerspace until it was sent to the scrap yard last year - the whole mill. I did get the chance to pull the KD11 board and the paper tape reader. If anyone happens to need original boards for a Bridgeport Series II, I may be able to help. -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 01:18:53 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 01:18:53 -0500 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: <4F933A05.3030205@verizon.net> Message-ID: reader punch? On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 1:13 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 6:51 PM, allison wrote: > > Very common. They have no idea how many of the 50,000++ Bridgeport 3axis > > mill systems > > are still running LSI11/2 (KD11) and another 25K of the KDF11 (11/23) out > > there. > > We had one at our hackerspace until it was sent to the scrap yard last > year - the whole mill. > > I did get the chance to pull the KD11 board and the paper tape reader. > > If anyone happens to need original boards for a Bridgeport Series II, > I may be able to help. > > -ethan > > From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Apr 22 01:19:17 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 08:19:17 +0200 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F93014C.9070600@neurotica.com> References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <564EFACC-1474-4D70-B187-0DE67AD4A136@gmail.com> <4F93014C.9070600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F93A2E5.5080509@bluewin.ch> On 04/21/2012 08:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I made the same transition for the most part, but kept my Zip disks around, and have recently started to collect some more. I'm planning to use them on PDP-11s as removable boot media. -Dave Funny, as the OP I asked for the ZIP drive spec in order to be able to use them as a replacement for the old, slow & unreliable 10 MB cartridge drive for my ETH Lilith. Those zips are, despite their faults, the closests thing to it, still available in plentiful supply. CF cards just doesn't seem right. Switching from the original drive to IDE or ATAPi drives involves writing new bitslice microcode. Difficult without the right spec, but as pointed out the 8070 spec and Linux driver source do go a long way in explaining things. IDE version works now, with a CHS-addressed harddisk. Atapi version still no luck W.r.t. reliability : I killed a perfectly good ZIP disk by misaligning the LBA addresses. Writing blocks on totally different addresses was not to its liking ( and noisy ) , although this should of course be possible. A corrected programs read and wrote consecutive blocks without issue, on a new ZIP disk. Jos From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 01:49:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 23:49:40 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4F934794.8390.345AE88@cclist.sydex.com> In all of this discussion, I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the LMC555, a CMOS version of the original bipolar part. Much better power characteristic (1mW typical) and good to 3MHz. Will operate down to about 1.5V. Available in a variety of packages, including micro SMD (about 1.4mm square). --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 02:45:49 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 02:45:49 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 104, Issue 53 In-Reply-To: <4F938B51.9040203@pico-systems.com> References: <4F938B51.9040203@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: amazing On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > From: allison To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Only Subject: Re: VAX on Reddit Message-ID: < > 4F933A05.3030205 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; > format=flowed On 04/21/2012 08:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > > Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a >> > silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." >> > >> > A number of years ago I went out to a plastic molding company to look > at a Microvax installation that had been hit by lightning and advise how > to rewire the place to avoid similar damage in the future. They took me > into their compute room and I was stunned at the contraption they had > running there. I stood there gasping and asking "What the HECK is THAT?" > Turns out they had this thing that was an off-brand clone of an > IBM 1800 running all their presses. I gathered it was a TTL > re-implementation of the 1800, but a very old machine at least. > (The microvax ran their accounting system.) > > Jon > > Jon > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Apr 22 05:08:34 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:08:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a > silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." > > Pictures: > http://www.reddit.com/tb/sl3ll > > Comments: > http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sl3ll/23_year_old_computer_still_in_daily_use_at_a/ And so what? Here's one of our machines at the institute, a SUN 4/260, put into service in 1988: SunOS Release 4.1.1 (AZU-MZ-XP-MODEM-SCSI2p) #9: Wed Jan 23 16:12:56 MET 2008 Copyright (c) 1983-1990, Sun Microsystems, Inc. cpu = Sun 4/200 Series mem = 32768K (0x2000000) avail mem = 31653888 [...] Christian From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Apr 22 06:25:57 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 07:25:57 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's Message-ID: Wow, what a funny subject line to ask for help with a generation leap in storage. !!! I did use Zip's in the 90's as an interchange medium and they weren't the worst thing in the world for that... but at most they had to hold their data for a week or two in the shipping lanes and that's not asking much. > Funny, > as the OP I asked for the ZIP drive spec in order to be able to use them as a replacement for the old, slow & unreliable 10 MB cartridge drive for my ETH Lilith. > Those zips are, despite their faults, the closests thing to it, still available in plentiful supply. CF cards just doesn't seem right. Most reliable 10MB removable drive ever was the RL02. But generation wise that's probably a step backwards in time not forward. CDC made a number of SMD-descended mini-cartridge drives with capacities in that range but they all sucked rocks. Jumping forward a couple generations in the mid-90's there were very good MO drives. The 5.25" drives (650 MB/1.3GB/2.6GB were industry standard sizes and some bigger as well too) were most often seen with SCSI interfaces and in fact Sony still makes and sells new media because there are several niche markets that rely on this format for interchange and archiving. 3.25" MO drives (128 MB but most often 230 MB) existed as well, with either SCSI and ATA interfaces, but these were never as reliable as their bigger brother (still several orders of magnitude more reliable than ZIPs). If this were the 90's I'd have no problem recommending 5.25" MO as an update. But this isn't the 90's anymore. Today in 2012? I have a hard time seeing how to use anything except CF as an interface standard that will exist going ahead for at least a decade maybe two in wide usage. The other format to choose is a USB keychain drive. If like me you think the CF format is just too physically tiny, epoxy a CF device to an old Lilith D120 style cart and have it slide into a reader that you've milled into the original D120 or D140 slot :-) Tim. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 07:30:33 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 09:30:33 -0300 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: Message-ID: <073901cd2083$da9e1450$6600a8c0@tababook> > Today in 2012? I have a hard time seeing how to use anything except CF as > an interface standard that will exist going ahead for at least a decade > maybe two in wide usage. The other format to choose is a USB keychain > drive. If like me you think the CF format is just too physically tiny, > epoxy a CF device to an old Lilith D120 style cart and have it slide into > a reader that you've milled into the original D120 or D140 slot :-) Why not the SD card? Cheaper, smaller and easy to interface! :) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Apr 22 07:34:15 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:34:15 +0200 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120422143415.3be4a6e9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:08:34 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: > Here's one of our machines at the institute, a SUN 4/260, put into > service in 1988: Interresting. What is its purpose? Controling an expensive scientific instrument like a NMR spectroscope? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sat Apr 21 09:56:12 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 00:56:12 +1000 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21/04/2012, at 10:59 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Shocking headline: "23 year old computer still in daily use at a > silver mine. MicroVAX 3100 running openVMS on 12mb memory." > > Pictures: > http://www.reddit.com/tb/sl3ll > > Comments: > http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sl3ll/23_year_old_computer_still_in_daily_use_at_a/ Shocking headline: "Knowledgeable VMS experts not surprised 23 year old VAX still working. 12MB considered excessive" :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sat Apr 21 16:18:09 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:18:09 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update Message-ID: <01OELH39PO5O002AW6@beyondthepale.ie> > >> >In any case there are really only 2 clases of VAXen I would want to try >> >running. One is the 11/780 and its brothers (11/782, 11/785), the other >> >is the 11/730 (and I guess 11/725). The former is too large for me to >> >accomodate at the moment, so it would have to be the latter. And I >> >suspect Unibus SCSI cards are not easy to find anyway... >> > >> >> You could always build one :-) > >Err, yes.... Building a n 11/780 wouldn't solve the space problem (it >would be about the same size). I guess I could try to re-implelent the >11/730 with statci RAM i nthe control store, but it's not somehting I >have time for at the momnent. > I was suggesting that you might build a Unibus SCSI card if it proved too difficult or expensive to get one by other means. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat Apr 21 18:49:13 2012 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:49:13 -0500 Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <20120421161403.A83822@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120421161403.A83822@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Why is it such an offense to solder in college? Is everything a FRU there? I would think they'd be such tightwads that they'd patch it 3 times before pitching it... On Saturday, April 21, 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > DA15 adapter to "repair" a video projector whose cable had been abused. >> > (I did not want to risk having a college administrator catch me soldering, > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> Why ever not? > > One of my colleagues was "caught" soldering a repair in a college computer > lab (that was closed at the time)! That was one of four offenses for > which they tried to fire him. The others included telling an "instructor" > that he was NOT available to come help her and to learn how to do her own > "reset" when the computer was "locked", refusing to change the grade > to passing for a student whose program crashed instead of a clean exit to > the OS, and removing discarded computers from the dumpster. > > While he was banned from campus, they removed and destroyed everything in > his office, which included a SOL, some Northstars, 6? bookcases of PC > Tech Journal, Dr Dobbs, IBM Technical References for all models, etc. > (Yes, he DID have the 8514 and EGA trch refs) > His office was densely packed, with mostly classic microcomputers. > > The mediator told them that they did NOT have adequate grounds to fire > him, and he has been reinstated. > > > No, I do not want to be caught soldering on campus. > > From jonas at otter.se Sun Apr 22 05:16:12 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:16:12 +0200 Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F93DA6C.3080408@otter.se> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 16:31:50 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > One of my colleagues was "caught" soldering a repair in a college computer > lab (that was closed at the time)! That was one of four offenses for > which they tried to fire him. The others included telling an "instructor" > that he was NOT available to come help her and to learn how to do her own > "reset" when the computer was "locked", refusing to change the grade > to passing for a student whose program crashed instead of a clean exit to > the OS, and removing discarded computers from the dumpster. > > While he was banned from campus, they removed and destroyed everything in > his office, which included a SOL, some Northstars, 6? bookcases of PC > Tech Journal, Dr Dobbs, IBM Technical References for all models, etc. > (Yes, he DID have the 8514 and EGA trch refs) > His office was densely packed, with mostly classic microcomputers. I thought the Nazis had been defeated 67 years ago? Did they just escape to your college? Or are your administrators ex-Stasi people? That is just plain evil and vindictive. They should be taken out and shot in front of all the students. /Jonas From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 22 08:07:28 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 09:07:28 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F940290.1070001@verizon.net> On 04/22/2012 01:52 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On the other hand, I'm not aware of any Syquest 44MB removable drives >>> still in operation. >> Oh I remember those. I've never actually used one though. A friend >> had a couple, not sure what kind of luck he had with them. > Back when 50MB on an Amiga was "abundant" (into the early 1990s), I > picked up a new Syquest44 drive for somewhere less than $400 including > at least one cartridge if not a couple more. I used it daily for many > years until 44MB was no longer adequate. It's still sitting in its > desk niche, in the same SCSI cabinet as my original sub-1X SCSI CD-ROM > drive (NEC CDR74?) It was working the last time I used it, but that's > been well over 10 years. I still have a working Syquest 270mb cartridge drive and over a dozen carts for it (3.5" format) in a syquest parallel port interface box. The internal interface is Parallel IDE. The only thing that has died (recent too) is the wall wart and its' easily replaced. I got that back in the 90s. when 270mb was a lot of storage even if fixed. Allison From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 08:23:48 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:23:48 -0300 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <078c01cd208b$4a984ad0$6600a8c0@tababook> > desk niche, in the same SCSI cabinet as my original sub-1X SCSI CD-ROM > drive (NEC CDR74?) It was working the last time I used it, but that's > been well over 10 years. A question I have for years: How hard is to find a Nec Intersect CD...I don't remember the model, maybe it was the CDR74. It was a long, beige box, top-loader. You could deattach the CD unit from the base, and use it as a diskman. I'm looking for that for AGES. I need to document the pinout of the connector of the drive. The Nec Turbografix 16 CD-ROM (this is a videogame...) uses the same CD and same connector on it, and it is pretty rare. If I can document the pinout, I can adapt a common CD on that and still uses the game. Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 22 08:51:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 06:51:20 -0700 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F93A2E5.5080509@bluewin.ch> References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <564EFACC-1474-4D70-B187-0DE67AD4A136@gmail.com> <4F93014C.9070600@neurotica.com> <4F93A2E5.5080509@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4F940CD8.3060800@bitsavers.org> > On 04/21/2012 08:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I made the same transition for the most part, but kept my Zip disks around, and have recently started to collect some more. I'm planning to use them on PDP-11s as removable boot media. -Dave > They work very well as a sneakernet transfer medium to an E11 system. I copied a lot of RK05 disks about 8 years ago with a Xylogics QBus RK05 controller booting RT11 from ZIP, then exporting files to Unix using E11's host file system driver. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 09:06:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:06:45 -0300 Subject: PCMCIA by any other name References: <4F93DA6C.3080408@otter.se> Message-ID: <07b301cd2091$540f5490$6600a8c0@tababook> > I thought the Nazis had been defeated 67 years ago? Did they just escape > to your college? Or are your administrators ex-Stasi people? > That is just plain evil and vindictive. They should be taken out and > shot in front of all the students. With touches of cruelty. From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Apr 22 09:33:44 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:33:44 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's Message-ID: > Why not the SD card? Cheaper, smaller and easy to interface! :) My gut feeling is that compact flash will live a little longer in terms of being able to get interface hardware a decade into the future. But I could be wrong and SD might have more legs (certainly fewer contacts). And as you point out the serial interface to a SD card is very straightforward so I think you have a good point! Tim. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 09:47:26 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:47:26 -0300 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: Message-ID: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> CF cards has an interesting point: They are ATA/ATAPI compatible. Right of the box. You have a decades old computer using an IDE/ATA/ATAPI/Whatever drive, you just pop it out and connects a CF card. I do that in my MSX computers and an old XT I have lying round. Also, my HP16500C which has a 2.1 GB drive (HP original! :D) will receive a CF card as soon as I can fiddle with that. I have a HP16505 prototype analyser that uses SCSI, but I'll try to find an adapter and change it too. SD cards has an adapter to CF pinout. They are cheaper and easier to found. I got a 16GB Sandisk card for my Dreamcast (yep...there is an adapter for dreamcast and I use almost no GDs these days) for R$ 35, which is around Us$ 15 in Brazil. Try to buy an 16GB CF in Brazil...the price skyrockets. it is cheaper to buy the SD->CF adapter AND the SD than the CF. On the other side, some devices has benefitis in using a serial interface media. The Dreamcast uses the SD card connected directly to the serial port, it would take some circuitry to connect a CF into that port. The SD uses just some wires and a clever software One of the things I'm interested in doing in the future, is creating a SCSI to SD interface, but I believe it will take some ages... --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shoppa, Tim" To: Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:33 AM Subject: Re: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's >> Why not the SD card? Cheaper, smaller and easy to interface! :) > > My gut feeling is that compact flash will live a little longer in terms of > being able to get interface hardware a decade into the future. But I could > be wrong and SD might have more legs (certainly fewer contacts). And as > you point out the serial interface to a SD card is very straightforward so > I think you have a good point! > > Tim. > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 09:48:19 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:48:19 -0300 Subject: Are there any brazilians on this list? References: Message-ID: <081e01cd2096$fe7de860$6600a8c0@tababook> This is something I always wanted to ask... Beyond me and the curator of the Museu do Computador here in Sao Paulo, is there any brazilians on this list? :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 10:23:32 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:23:32 -0500 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <4F940290.1070001@verizon.net> References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> <4F940290.1070001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F942274.8060508@gmail.com> On 04/22/2012 08:07 AM, allison wrote: > I got that back in the 90s. when 270mb was a lot of storage even if fixed. I don't know, I bought a 245MB IDE drive to replace the 89MB one that was in my main desktop PC, and that was in '93 I think - ~250MB at that point was the typical 'big drive' for a PC (within a couple of years it was around 500MB, then 750MB, then 1GB...). I think 1991 or so was probably the point where rotating storage prices started dropping really fast. cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 10:25:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:25:56 -0400 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. In-Reply-To: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > One of the things I'm interested in doing in the future, is creating a SCSI to SD interface, but I believe it will take some ages... Someone pointed this out a few months ago: http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_73&products_id=180 I believe someone else mentioned they'd been trying it out (might have been Glen Slick?) and that there were varying degrees of success with anything but the CF card part on most classic OSes, since each port exists as a separate LUN on the same SCSI ID. I could be spuriously recalling a conversation that didn't happen, though. I'm still interested in trying one out, but I'd be interested in making a multi-format flash memory device SCSI reader specifically for booting older machines. At some point, when I acquire some more round tuits. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 10:28:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:28:44 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <078c01cd208b$4a984ad0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <4F9257C7.8020502@neurotica.com> <4F92738B.23280.96A76@cclist.sydex.com> <4F93005B.1080800@neurotica.com> <078c01cd208b$4a984ad0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <49F8E334-8733-4C5D-9DE4-BC3152F58576@gmail.com> On Apr 22, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> desk niche, in the same SCSI cabinet as my original sub-1X SCSI CD-ROM >> drive (NEC CDR74?) It was working the last time I used it, but that's >> been well over 10 years. > > A question I have for years: > > How hard is to find a Nec Intersect CD...I don't remember the model, maybe it was the CDR74. It was a long, beige box, top-loader. You could deattach the CD unit from the base, and use it as a diskman. Oh wow, I used to have one of those. It was handy, if not exactly reliable. I think it got tossed over a decade ago, before anyone had any idea it might be useful/worth fixing. :-\ It was SCSI, if that's any help. If I do happen to find it in my parents' house (don't hold your breath), I'll ping you. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 22 10:29:55 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <4F93DA6C.3080408@otter.se> References: <4F93DA6C.3080408@otter.se> Message-ID: <201204221529.LAA08902@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> While he was banned from campus, they removed and destroyed >> everything in his office, which included a SOL, some Northstars, 6? >> bookcases of PCTech Journal, Dr Dobbs, IBM Technical References for >> all models, etc. (Yes, he DID have the 8514 and EGA trch refs) > That is just plain evil and vindictive. They should be taken out and > shot in front of all the students. Naw, that's too good for them. They should have to find him another of each thing they destroyed. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 10:30:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 08:30:55 -0700 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2012 at 10:33, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > Why not the SD card? Cheaper, smaller and easy to interface! :) > > My gut feeling is that compact flash will live a little longer in > terms of being able to get interface hardware a decade into the > future. But I could be wrong and SD might have more legs (certainly > fewer contacts). And as you point out the serial interface to a SD > card is very straightforward so I think you have a good point! One thing that has held the SD card back from wider acceptance is the slow rate of divulging exactly how the interface operates. Although it's pretty well-known now, in earlier days you had to go scouring the net to find much detail. If you stick with the SPI interface, you can also handle MMC cards as well, although they're rapidly disappearing. And there's micro-SD, which almost feels *too* small... --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 22 10:33:54 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The Dreamcast uses the SD card connected directly to the serial port, > it would take some circuitry to connect a CF into that port. Um, Dreamcast VMUs are more than just SD cards; they've got an 8-bit CPU and a small 1bpp display in there too. And the SH's serial port is brought out to a connector on the back panel.... Unless you mean something other than the Sega gaming console? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 10:52:00 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:52:00 -0300 Subject: Amiga IDE Non-autoboot interface References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <087d01cd209f$fae0ae50$6600a8c0@tababook> Any tips of an easy to build non-autoboot interface for the A2000? I'm tired of using diskettes on my A2000 :( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 10:58:49 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:58:49 -0300 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> Yep, but I'm not talking about VMUs. There is a way to connect an SDCard into the serial port and load games from that. Look for dreamshell and your life will be enlighted :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mouse" To: Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:33 PM Subject: Re: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's >> The Dreamcast uses the SD card connected directly to the serial port, >> it would take some circuitry to connect a CF into that port. > > Um, Dreamcast VMUs are more than just SD cards; they've got an 8-bit > CPU and a small 1bpp display in there too. And the SH's serial port is > brought out to a connector on the back panel.... > > Unless you mean something other than the Sega gaming console? > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 11:01:32 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:01:32 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <030EEF68-EEC9-4E98-8B06-122B22CA4D06@gmail.com> On Apr 22, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > And there's micro-SD, which almost feels *too* small... Depends on your application. For the wireless sensor nodes I'm designing, they're almost too big. :-) Certainly too power- hungry for a lot of applications. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 22 11:33:04 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 09:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: <1335035218.95291.YahooMailClassic@web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1335035218.95291.YahooMailClassic@web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Sam Onella wrote: > Who made the original 1GB (Maybe 2GB?)drive cartridge drive? I was going to say they were a good product from what I recall but later Iomega bought them out and trashed the product (I think they may have renamed the Syquest drives to Jazz or something). > > But yes, the 100MB zip drives in my experience were quite reliable. > The horror stories I heard later with the damaged disks tearing the read > arm, etc were with the later models from what I recall. Any idea what serial number series began the "bad" drives (or started the good ones?) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 22 11:51:27 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: <4F9301CA.6090508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > When I was in the Navy there was a Tactical computer system that I was not > allowed to touch the keyboard on. If I touched the keyboard, it would crash, > otherwise it was nice and stable. The theory was that it was something to do > with me, and the metal enclosure holding the keyboard. I didn't have to > actually type anything on the keyboard, and it happened multiple times. It > didn't happen with anyone else, and I've never had it happen with another > computer. > Sounds like a variant of the "more magic" switch. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 11:59:53 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:59:53 -0500 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> On 04/22/2012 09:47 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > One of the things I'm interested in doing in the future, is creating a SCSI > to SD interface, but I believe it will take some ages... One of the problems I have with these kinds of things is that storage technology changes reasonably fast - i.e. five years down the road I've no idea if I'll be able to get hold of SD cards. For that reason I keep wondering if it makes sense to split the 'modern interface' side out onto a separate board, leaving the 'core' as a SCSI interface, CPU and expansion port. When SD's hard to get hold of, simply plug in a new adapter board for whatever technology is readily available and download the relevant firmware so that the adapter's CPU can drive it (with some technologies - such as CF - the CPU can probably drive the 'modern interface' directly, but with others I'm sure it would require some intelligence on the plug-in card). I suppose a "SCSI to Ethernet" adapter might be nice, too - don't worry about having the storage local to the vintage machine at all, but have it in an image file on a modern PC somewhere out on the network. Assuming that wired Ethernet in its current form is going to stick around for a useful amount of time, of course :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 12:03:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:03:50 -0700 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <030EEF68-EEC9-4E98-8B06-122B22CA4D06@gmail.com> References: , <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com>, <030EEF68-EEC9-4E98-8B06-122B22CA4D06@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F93D786.13465.6299A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2012 at 12:01, David Riley wrote: > Depends on your application. For the wireless sensor nodes I'm > designing, they're almost too big. :-) Certainly too power- > hungry for a lot of applications. I meant that for aging hands and eyes, they're physically too small to manipulate easily--and far too easy to drop on a carpet and be gone forever--until discovered by a vacuum cleaner--too late. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 22 12:23:50 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <201204221529.LAA08902@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F93DA6C.3080408@otter.se> <201204221529.LAA08902@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> While he was banned from campus, they removed and destroyed >>> everything in his office, which included a SOL, some Northstars, 6? >>> bookcases of PCTech Journal, Dr Dobbs, IBM Technical References for >>> all models, etc. (Yes, he DID have the 8514 and EGA trch refs) >> That is just plain evil and vindictive. They should be taken out and >> shot in front of all the students. > > Naw, that's too good for them. > > They should have to find him another of each thing they destroyed. If they'd done that to MY property, what happened to Carthage would look like a fscking spring fair in comparison. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 12:38:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:38:56 -0700 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4F93DFC0.30839.82BF21@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2012 at 9:51, Gene Buckle wrote: > Sounds like a variant of the "more magic" switch. :) I'd first check out my shoes. Could be ESD. I recall a tale told by a friend, Roger, from CDC. Armed with a shiny new degree, he was assigned as his first job to work with Greg Mansfield. When he was working on MACE, Greg would come in after hours and appropriate one of the systems on the manufacturing QA test floor (that's one of the reasons for the O26 console application--the keypunch was a long way away). At any rate, Greg was showing Roger how things work and then excused himself for a call of nature. He invited Roger to fool around a bit at the console while he was gone. After a couple of minutes, Roger decided to type something in. Right at that moment, a power failure hit and the facility was plunged into darkness... --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 22 12:54:33 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <4F93DFC0.30839.82BF21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F93DFC0.30839.82BF21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201204221754.NAA10865@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Sounds like a variant of the "more magic" switch. :) > I'd first check out my shoes. Could be ESD. I go barefoot pretty much whenever I can get away with it and I don't consider it completely boneheaded (occasionally even on city streets). At work, I rarely get any static for it (er, so to speak), but, when asked, I point out that it cuts down ESD potential substantially - while I actually started it because I'm more comfortable that way, it _is_ true.... :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 12:56:26 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:56:26 -0500 Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <4F93DFC0.30839.82BF21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F93DFC0.30839.82BF21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: talk about timing lol On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Apr 2012 at 9:51, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > Sounds like a variant of the "more magic" switch. :) > > I'd first check out my shoes. Could be ESD. > > I recall a tale told by a friend, Roger, from CDC. Armed with a > shiny new degree, he was assigned as his first job to work with Greg > Mansfield. When he was working on MACE, Greg would come in after > hours and appropriate one of the systems on the manufacturing QA test > floor (that's one of the reasons for the O26 console application--the > keypunch was a long way away). > > At any rate, Greg was showing Roger how things work and then excused > himself for a call of nature. He invited Roger to fool around a bit > at the console while he was gone. > > After a couple of minutes, Roger decided to type something in. Right > at that moment, a power failure hit and the facility was plunged into > darkness... > > --Chuck > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 13:17:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:17:56 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <22A5A8D6-A8BD-4312-9064-31C32A2D97B9@shiresoft.com> References: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> <6F5A2C7B-5D6F-45CE-9F3C-C2A22B616696@gmail.com> <22A5A8D6-A8BD-4312-9064-31C32A2D97B9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2012, at 12:32 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > And to finish off my part in this, classic computers and such are for me a > hobby. I do high tech, leading edge stuff as a job and in that role something > like the 555 doesn't really have a place (at least in the stuff that I'm doing). > While we may have some things that could be done by a 555-like device, there's > so much other stuff going on that it's better (from every dimension) to incorporate > the functionality into micro's or ASICs (FPGAs and CPLDs are only used for > prototypes?they're too costly when you're building x*1,000,000's/quarter). That is almost true in my world as well. Still, sometimes they're actually the best solution; we had to provide a ~600KHz clock to a bunch of switching power supply modules on one board to synchronize them (so they'd switch on alternate phases, etc). A 555 (well, a modern CMOS version) was the true obvious choice there, because it was a pretty foolproof part with few externals in the right frequency range. Project management at the customer (this is the same project that made us put the 800 MHz PowerPC on board when a 50 MHz ARM would have done) was furious at us for not dividing down the 100 MHz system clock on one of the on-board FPGAs instead. Of course, this was a second spin, designed to fix the nasty problem of the FPGAs not starting up reliably because the power supplies were getting thrown off because they weren't in sync. :-) I'm glad to say it was actually one of my co-workers who pushed for the 555. Of course, he had background as a technician and would much rather have something he could adjust himself in the lab without going through the exercise of finding an FPGA compiler, finding the source code, modifying it, waiting an hour for the damn thing to compile, then waiting the 15 minutes (no, really) it took to program the flash. Project management was less pissed off once they forgot about it a week later, and it's never given us problems since (and they made thousands of the board). Long story short, it's all a matter of choosing the right part. Sometimes a 555 *is* the right part, and sometimes it's not. For a power supply frequency reference, I'll choose the analog-ish part over an FPGA/micro any day, unless there's an astoundingly good reason to go with the other. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 22 13:48:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204220208.WAA26244@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120422114549.W12168@shell.lmi.net> > > Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples does not yield > > accurate results. On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Mouse wrote: > Neither does assuming that theory matches reality. > > I would argue that todays computer systems are *much* more reliable > > than the systems that were in general use 10-20 (or more) years ago. > On what grounds? > It contradicts tony's experience. It contradicts mine as well. Do you > have experience pointing the other way? (I would tend to assume not, > since if you had I would expect you to have mentioned it by now, but > assumptions don't make for good data either.) He's just Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 22 14:08:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <4F93DA6C.3080408@otter.se> References: <4F93DA6C.3080408@otter.se> Message-ID: <20120422120028.F12168@shell.lmi.net> > > While he was banned from campus, they removed and destroyed everything in > > his office, which included a SOL, some Northstars, 6? bookcases of PC > > Tech Journal, Dr Dobbs, IBM Technical References for all models, etc. > > (Yes, he DID have the 8514 and EGA trch refs) > > His office was densely packed, with mostly classic microcomputers. On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Jonas Otter wrote: > I thought the Nazis had been defeated 67 years ago? Did they just escape > to your college? Or are your administrators ex-Stasi people? With apologies to Mike Godwin, THAT comparison is offensive. To any surviving Nazis. > That is just plain evil and vindictive. They should be taken out and > shot in front of all the students. I was thinking more in terms of defenestration. But, in the interests of campus cleanliness, leaving out the manure pile at the base. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 22 14:22:40 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > And there's micro-SD, which almost feels *too* small... I'm still having difficulty finding a suitable pillbox container for carrying half a dozen in my pocket and having difficulty labelling them. I wish that they were manufactured with a hole through them to string them. Compact-Flash seems to have almost disappeared. How long before SD and MicroSD become unobtanium? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 22 14:32:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 15:32:38 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> On 04/22/2012 03:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Compact-Flash seems to have almost disappeared. Huh? Not at all. It is the mainstay of pro-level digital camera work. It has just disappeared from consumer-shit-grade stuff because it is "huge". Heh. (still aching from moving an RK07 last night, and that's on the "light" side of my stuff!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 22 14:35:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: References: <4F93DA6C.3080408@otter.se> <201204221529.LAA08902@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120422122951.B12168@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > If they'd done that to MY property, what happened to Carthage would look > like a fscking spring fair in comparison. I don't know what, if anything, he is still trying to do about it. He's well aware now that his office on campus is not a secure storage place for his "collection". With the volume of dumpster collections, he had way too much stuff to keep track of, let alone store. Some here may remember that he had a dumpster salvage 11/40? that he had no place to put, and left it outside in his backyard for too many years. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 22 14:38:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 15:38:32 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F945E38.2050206@neurotica.com> On 04/22/2012 03:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/22/2012 03:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Compact-Flash seems to have almost disappeared. > > Huh? Not at all. It is the mainstay of pro-level digital camera > work. ...and of course I was in a rush and forgot to type "and is readily available in pretty much any capacity you want". I just bought a few for a Cisco router (where they are very heavily used) a few days ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 13:36:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:36:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sneakernet; was Re: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Apr 21, 12 10:51:22 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, David Griffith wrote: > > > I did something similar except I used a Sun IPX. > > You mean you hauled your IPX back and forth? Interesting idea... did you > have 2 sets of monitors/keyboards for it, one at work and one at home? When I was an undergraduate, the populer home computer here was the BBC micro,. and the university had plenty of them on public access. You could download stuff onto floppies and take them to your own machine. Only problem was that I didn't have a Beeb. I did find that there was a date transfer medioum I could read, though. Paper tape. I had a rather nice puch/reader on my P850, and a serial punch/reader (only 30cps :-() on my micros. So I'd get my files punched on tape and read them into my machines. It rather spoilt the fun when Ibought an M100 and got permission to plug it into a spare RS232 port on the university PADs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 13:39:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:39:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120421160655.V83822@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 21, 12 04:09:43 pm Message-ID: > > > > What's a "doorbell controller"? > > A momnetary-actionm push-to-make (form A) single pole switch? I haev a > > couple of new ones hwere with Heath/Zentih logos on the packaging... > > Ah, but if you have two inputs, two outputs, and a third output that > should respond to either input, then you may need a pair of diodes, or a > MICROCONTROLLER :-? > Or double pole pushbuttons. Or relays, operated by the pushbuttons with 2 cotnact sets on each. Or a current sensing relay in series with the feed to the buttons (wired to bells as normal) so that it operates whenever eitherof those buttons is closed (and thus the associated bell is activated), the contacts of that relay provide the 3rd output. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 13:43:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:43:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120421160955.C83822@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 21, 12 04:13:03 pm Message-ID: [Doorbell controller] > > Wouldn't it be easier to use a 5150? You've got the cassette motor relay > > which you could then use energise the bell. > > It would, indeed, be far preferable. (and was what I had in mind) > But the supply of them is dwindling. I only have one left! > OK, use a CPjr, then. I think that has a motor relay... Hang on... The 5170 floppy drive has a head load solenoid. The driver for that much be able to sink enough current to fire a relay. So you cna use a 5170, and just kludge a small relay into the floppy drive... I suspect you could easily add a relay drive to one of the keyboard IEDs. Rignt the doorbell on CAPS LOCK or something.... [Yes, I am well aware how to drive relays from TTL or RS232 level signsl. I am just tryign to avoid suggsting it...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 13:45:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:45:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCMCIA by any other name In-Reply-To: <20120421161403.A83822@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 21, 12 04:31:50 pm Message-ID: > > > > DA15 adapter to "repair" a video projector whose cable had been abused. > > > (I did not want to risk having a college administrator catch me soldering, > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Why ever not? > > One of my colleagues was "caught" soldering a repair in a college computer I an wodnering just what is wrong with sodlering a repair.... It's how I've repaired things for many years. > lab (that was closed at the time)! That was one of four offenses for > which they tried to fire him. The others included telling an "instructor" > that he was NOT available to come help her and to learn how to do her own > "reset" when the computer was "locked", refusing to change the grade > to passing for a student whose program crashed instead of a clean exit to > the OS, and removing discarded computers from the dumpster. > > While he was banned from campus, they removed and destroyed everything in > his office, which included a SOL, some Northstars, 6? bookcases of PC > Tech Journal, Dr Dobbs, IBM Technical References for all models, etc. > (Yes, he DID have the 8514 and EGA trch refs) > His office was densely packed, with mostly classic microcomputers. And you still work there? I think if an organisation behaved like that to anyone I knewe, I'd walk out. I'd also find a new use for a soldering gun, involving the adminsitrators rectum. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 13:53:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:53:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: another one bites the dust... In-Reply-To: <1335056914.76594.ymail_j2me@web29606.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Apr 22, 12 02:08:34 am Message-ID: > i haven't heard the phrase NICAM stereo since the 90's. > It's all Dolby Surround sound now - though i personally don't care for it. I beleive NICAM signals were transmitted (along with mono FM sound) with the analgoue video signals until the very end. As for surround sound, I've seen plenty of digital TVs with just 2 speakers (and 2 audio amplifiers), so I guess you don't _have_ to have it... And as I've seaid many times before, I've never had my enjoyment of a TV programme spoilt by poor sound reproduction, low picture resolution, or anything like that. I have had it spoitlt by a stupid plot, poor acting, poor dialogue, indisinct speech, and so on. Things that have not been improved by digital TV. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 13:55:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:55:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <56D1311B-F650-4F1A-8E5E-168E32D7C3EE@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 21, 12 09:13:15 pm Message-ID: > I suspect he meant build the Unibus SCSI card. Not the hardest task > in the world, since Unibus isn't even multiplexed... True enough. I've built things to conenct to the Unibus. Howwever, getting it to talk MSCP is rather more work. And if I avoid doing that, I would have to write a VMS device driver, soemthing I know nothing about doing... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 13:28:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:28:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: <01OELH39PO5O002AW6@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Apr 21, 12 10:18:09 pm Message-ID: > I was suggesting that you might build a Unibus SCSI card if it proved too > difficult or expensive to get one by other means. Ah, OK.... And write a VMS driver for it, presumably, since it's doubtful I could quickly make something that talks MSCP. I asusme thought, this is all academic, becuase there are no scanners, and never have been, that meet my repairability requirements (no ASCIs, schematics available, mechanical repair diagrams avaialble, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 13:31:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:31:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F92C97C.30626.159222F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 12 02:51:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 21 Apr 2012 at 20:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > > More seriosuly, how do you drive the Ready/ pin on the itneface > > conenctor? Can the microcontroller sink enough current? and how do you > > gate it with the drive select? If you're doing it i nthe > > microcontroller, i can see problems with some controllers that poll > > the drivses repeatedly looking for a change of state of the ready/ > > line. > > 48 ma enough? I've got 8 pins, 5 of which are programmable high- > impedance/input/output and one of which is dedicated input. I do ahve a sligth moral objection to driving na interfce pin from a custom or programmed IC. I know just about all reasonably-recent drvies do it, but I still don;t like it. Too easy to zzap things. And for the cost of a '38, it's trivial to avoid... You ahven't expalined how you gate the ready/ signal with DS/. I assume you feed DS/ into the PIC too (If you take it driectly from the interface conencotor or the selct link, I wonder if the pCI has the correct input threshold :-)). I am still worried if the PIC is fast enough to turn ready/ on and off in all cases. > At my age, I'll be dead before I need to revisit the code. Still, Yes, but your descentants may have to fix it :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 14:02:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:02:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: from "Guy Sotomayor" at Apr 21, 12 06:34:27 pm Message-ID: > > OK. How many 1,000,000's of parts have you looked at? What long term st= > atistical analysis have you done? And how many have you _personally_ looked at? I am not talking about gettign data from elsewhere, which may or may not be reliable? > > Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples does not yield accura= > te results. True enough. But either I have been very unlucky, or there really is the effect that complex ICs are less reliable than simple ones.I am not talking about a few more microcontrolelrs failing than 555s. I am talking aobut often having to repalce a complex IC and very rearle having to repalce a simple one. > > >=20 > > In other words, I'ev; had many thousands of things across the bench by=20 > > now. And I can assure you that complex ICs, modern ones, old ones,=20 > > whatever, are mcuh more likely to be dead than simpler ones.=20 > > Still a small sample set. OK, and jsut whhat is your smaple set? > I would argue that todays computer systems are *much* more reliable than > the systems that were in general use 10-20 (or more) years ago. My first thoguht was 'have I jsut telepoted to a another uinverse' and then I relaised you can't really compare like with like. Thew old computers that I (and others here) run are oftne very expensive manchiens (when new), as opposed to the <$500 stuff that most people have today. It can't be fair to compare the build and reliabiltiy of those. And I will agree that there are plentyo of (presuambly) modern systems on the internet that are almost always avaialble (whether becuase each machine is reliable or becuase there's redunancy or ... I don;t know), so there must be plenty of reliable modern machines. Comparing those to a home computer of 10 ro 20 eyars ago is unfair. Compaing them to a minicomputer or similar is more reasoable, and I've found such machiens (yes old ones) to be relaivble when properly used. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 14:06:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:06:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <76948576-30C4-4C52-AEA9-68B65D977624@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Apr 21, 12 07:34:33 pm Message-ID: > > > On Apr 21, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Mouse wrote: > > >> Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples does not yield > >> accurate results. > > > > Neither does assuming that theory matches reality. > > Except that your reality is a *small* sample set. When you look at data > for 1,000,000's of components you'll see different results. Until you look at And you have _ersonally_ looked at millions of components? Sorry, I've seen too much bogus data already... > truly large data sets and do the appropriate statistical analysis all you're > really talking about is anecdotal evidence. How coome 2 of use here (at least) seem to have contradictory findings? > > It contradicts tony's experience. It contradicts mine as well. Do you > > have experience pointing the other way? (I would tend to assume not, > > since if you had I would expect you to have mentioned it by now, but > > assumptions don't make for good data either.) > > Unfortunately I can't really point to it since it's proprietary to the companies Oh come now. And you expect us to believe comments based on data that's not even available? Sorry, I'll stick with what my experience as taught me, modifying it on the basis of more experience. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 14:37:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:37:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Apr 22, 12 10:33:44 am Message-ID: > > > Why not the SD card? Cheaper, smaller and easy to interface! :) > > My gut feeling is that compact flash will live a little longer in > terms of being able to get interface hardware a decade into the future. > But I could be wrong and SD might have more legs (certainly fewer > contacts). And as you point out the serial interface to a SD card is > very straightforward so I think you have a good point! As far as I know, both CF and SD cards are docuemtned. The only custom interfce hardware is the connectors ;-). Although it might be slow, there's nothign to stop you talkign to an SD card by bit-banging the signals on the I/O pins of any microcotroller, computer, or whatever. So I see no reason why you won't be able to read/write SD cards in 10 years time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 14:14:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:14:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 22, 12 01:32:37 am Message-ID: > > Sometimes the failures are catastrophic, and other times they are latent > (ticking time bombs - these are the failures that really suck). Reworking a > board lowers the reliability of the parts on it - even innocent bystanders. This is something I have _never_ observed. I've reowkred many boards (OK, small sample, but...). I've desoldered ICs and soldeed them back again. And I have never noticed a larger failure rate for stuff I've repaired as agaisnt stuff I haven/t -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 14:10:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:10:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 22, 12 00:57:34 am Message-ID: > > Such data is highly guarded by companies, often because it can be > embarrassing. It certainly was when I did QA stuff at USR (you know, doing > real life manufacturing engineering, instead of sitting in my parent's > basement). Hmm.. I have a USR modem here. It's been fine for many years _after_ I resoldered a lot of dry joints shortly after I got it (on the PCB and on the secodnary of the transformer in the mains adapter). Oh, and re-crimped the telephone plug. So to be honest, I don't think much of USR prodcution or quality control. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 14:16:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:16:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F934794.8390.345AE88@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 12 11:49:40 pm Message-ID: > > In all of this discussion, I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the > LMC555, a CMOS version of the original bipolar part. Much better I am pretty sure I mentioend the 7555, which is another CMOS version. It has many advantages (including the fact it doesn';t put an almighty glitch onthe supply line when it switches), but it may be a little more 'fragile' than the bipoler one. Without checking, I am not sure of its output current specification either, the bipolar 555 can drive quite heavy load. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 14:47:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:47:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Apr 22, 12 02:17:56 pm Message-ID: > Long story short, it's all a matter of choosing the right part. Sometime= > s > a 555 *is* the right part, and sometimes it's not. For a power supply > frequency reference, I'll choose the analog-ish part over an FPGA/micro > any day, unless there's an astoundingly good reason to go with the other. _Precisely_ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 22 14:51:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 20:51:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 22, 12 03:32:38 pm Message-ID: > is "huge". Heh. (still aching from moving an RK07 last night, and > that's on the "light" side of my stuff!) Last time I moved an RK07, I took it apart. The thing is very modular, you cvna take off the covers, disk pack holder, filter, blower, PSU assembly and cardcage very quickly. THen take off the mains input bracket (it hides one of he screws, don't ask how I found that out) and 3 more screw then retain the main chassis. That is fairly heavy but I carried it with no problems. Did the same with an RA60.... -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 14:57:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 15:57:38 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2012, at 3:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/22/2012 03:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Compact-Flash seems to have almost disappeared. > > Huh? Not at all. It is the mainstay of pro-level digital camera > work. It has just disappeared from consumer-shit-grade stuff because it > is "huge". Heh. (still aching from moving an RK07 last night, and > that's on the "light" side of my stuff!) It's also very heavily used in the embedded computing industry; lots of PC-104 (or PCI/PCIe versions of same), Mini-ITX, etc. small form- factor motherboards available with CompactFlash slots for their main hard drive. That whole thing where it's a legitimate ATA disk right out of the box is its main advantage there. It's being slowly replaced by CFast, which as I understand it has the advantage of running as a SATA drive, but beyond that, I'm not really sure what the difference is. I haven't really looked, but I don't think CompactFlash is going anywhere anytime soon. - Dave From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Apr 22 15:23:41 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:23:41 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's Message-ID: >> > Why not the SD card? Cheaper, smaller and easy to interface! :) >> >> My gut feeling is that compact flash will live a little longer in >> terms of being able to get interface hardware a decade into the future. >> But I could be wrong and SD might have more legs (certainly fewer >> contacts). And as you point out the serial interface to a SD card is >> very straightforward so I think you have a good point! > As far as I know, both CF and SD cards are docuemtned. The only custom > interfce hardware is the connectors ;-). Although it might be slow, there's > nothign to stop you talkign to an SD card by bit-banging the signals on > the I/O pins of any microcotroller, computer, or whatever. > So I see no reason why you won't be able to read/write SD cards in 10 > years time. My analogy is that Compact Flash are like U--matic videotapes and that SD is like VHS tapes. SD gets most of the consumer uses, but the consumer product lifespan is very short. The CF applications today are mostly industrial uses with lifespans measured in a decade or more. That's why my gut feeling is to favor CF for long legs. Tim. From jrasite at eoni.com Sun Apr 22 15:32:10 2012 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:32:10 -0700 Subject: Travan cleaning cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <29A59295-87D6-494A-9BBE-2AC0FC2BEC17@eoni.com> If anyone would like, drop me a note. I have (3) new Imation Travan DC200 series/MC3000 series cleaning cartridges that need a new home. Yours for the postage. Jim Whether we're a preschooler or a young teen, a graduating college senior or a retired person, we human beings all want to know that we're acceptable, that our being alive somehow makes a difference in the lives of others. --Fred Rogers From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Apr 22 15:51:23 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:51:23 +0200 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120422225123.f2a2aaef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:59:53 -0500 Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose a "SCSI to Ethernet" adapter might be nice, too I had a similar idea a while back: A thing that emulates a SCSI disk on one side and a iSCSI initiator on the other side. That way I can connect it to a iSCSI target on a modernish PeeCee and have the "SCSI disk" of the vintage machine as an image file on the PeeCee. Or skip the iSCSI stuff alltogether: Reprogramm a NCR / Symbios 53Csomething to act as a SCSI target, emulating a SCSI disk that is backed by an image file on the host machine. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 15:53:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:53:05 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <4F92C97C.30626.159222F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 12 02:51:40 pm, Message-ID: <4F940D41.32013.1347C98@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2012 at 19:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On 21 Apr 2012 at 20:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > More seriosuly, how do you drive the Ready/ pin on the itneface > > > conenctor? Can the microcontroller sink enough current? and how do > > > you gate it with the drive select? If you're doing it i nthe > > > microcontroller, i can see problems with some controllers that > > > poll the drivses repeatedly looking for a change of state of the > > > ready/ line. > > > > 48 ma enough? I've got 8 pins, 5 of which are programmable high- > > impedance/input/output and one of which is dedicated input. > > I do ahve a sligth moral objection to driving na interfce pin from a > custom or programmed IC. I know just about all reasonably-recent > drvies do it, but I still don;t like it. Too easy to zzap things. And > for the cost of a '38, it's trivial to avoid... At less than USD$1.00 for a PIC, it's hard to rationalize on a faint possibility. It works. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 16:02:55 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 18:02:55 -0300 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability References: Message-ID: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> > Hmm.. I have a USR modem here. It's been fine for many years _after_ I > resoldered a lot of dry joints shortly after I got it (on the PCB and on > the secodnary of the transformer in the mains adapter). Oh, and > re-crimped the telephone plug. > So to be honest, I don't think much of USR prodcution or quality control. I've sold **hundreds** of these modems here in Brazil and never had returns like that you said :oP From the Sportster 28800 to the Courier V-Everything-but-the-girl, and the older couriers (I had a 9600/14400 HST) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Apr 22 16:25:40 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <201204221754.NAA10865@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F93DFC0.30839.82BF21@cclist.sydex.com> <201204221754.NAA10865@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> Sounds like a variant of the "more magic" switch. :) >> I'd first check out my shoes. Could be ESD. > > I go barefoot pretty much whenever I can get away with it and I don't > consider it completely boneheaded (occasionally even on city streets). > At work, I rarely get any static for it (er, so to speak), but, when > asked, I point out that it cuts down ESD potential substantially - > while I actually started it because I'm more comfortable that way, it > _is_ true.... :) Soldering while barefoot allows you to grasp something grounded with your toes rather than wearing one of those ill-fitting grounding straps. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 16:31:25 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:31:25 -0700 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. In-Reply-To: References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 8:25 AM, David Riley wrote: > > Someone pointed this out a few months ago: > > http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_73&products_id=180 > > I believe someone else mentioned they'd been trying it out (might have > been Glen Slick?) and that there were varying degrees of success with > anything but the CF card part on most classic OSes, since each port > exists as a separate LUN on the same SCSI ID. ?I could be spuriously > recalling a conversation that didn't happen, though. On those devices the PCCard slot is LUN 0 and the CF slot is LUN 1. I didn't have any luck using the device with the built in SCSI controllers on either a VaxStation 3100 M76 or an InfoServer 1000, regardless of which LUN I tried to use. The device LUNs would show up in >>>SHOW DEVICES but errors would occur when trying to use them. The device seemed to work fine with the limited testing I did with a CMD CQD-220. The configuration menu for the CMD CQD-220 lets you specify both the SCSI target ID and the target LUN. I was able to use a CF card in the LUN 0 PCCard slot with a CF-PCCard adapter and in the native LUN 1 CF slot. Booted both RT-11 and XXDP from the device with the CQD-220. -Glen From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 22 16:36:01 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:36:01 -0700 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 3:32 PM -0400 4/22/12, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 04/22/2012 03:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Compact-Flash seems to have almost disappeared. > > Huh? Not at all. It is the mainstay of pro-level digital camera >work. It has just disappeared from consumer-shit-grade stuff because it >is "huge". Heh. (still aching from moving an RK07 last night, and >that's on the "light" side of my stuff!) > > -Dave To the best of my knowledge the only Pro-level digital camera that doesn't use Compact-Flash is the Leica M9 (trust me, there is no room in there). What sucks is that Costco no longer carries it in the stores (at least not my local ones). The new Nikon D4 has two slots, one for the older Compact-Flash cards, and one for the new XQD cards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XQD_card Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 22 16:39:54 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204222139.RAA14441@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] I relaised you can't really compare like with like. Thew old > computers that I (and others here) run are oftne very expensive > manchiens (when new), as opposed to the <$500 stuff that most people > have today. It can't be fair to compare the build and reliabiltiy of > those. I'd say, yes and no. Take, for exmaple, one of my SS20s. A modern machine built with the same kind of engineering care and attention that went into that SS20 quite possibly _would_ be the more reliable of the two - I have no real basis for comparison there. But when compared in terms of what's common - what my employer put on employees' desks at work back 20, 30 years ago, versus what my employer puts on employees' desks at work today (or, in my case, would if I didn't bring in my own machine for the purpose)...then today's machines are crap. Same if the comparison is based on looking at shelves in a (then-)typical computer store. Each basis for comparison has a place, and I get the feeling at least part of the disagreement here is disagreeing over which one is more appropriate. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Apr 22 16:46:48 2012 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm at sunflower.com) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:46:48 -0500 Subject: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled In-Reply-To: <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> References: <4F89BAE0.7030707@centurylink.net> <4F8E2060.9000904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <7F28A4B19A944D2D8F9B7225A7F45A28@990FX> I've got a stack of them, want one? I'll sell it cheap. I have lots of stuff. Just got divorced and looking to clean up the basement. I'll probably save the real prizes for ebay but I have I think at least 3 //e plats. I have a 100 machines. If there is interest I'll make a list of what I have. But it's honestly not worth my time for less than 25 a piece plus shipping. Now if you want one of the nice ones, we can talk. The nice ones: Bell+Howell Black apple with two drives, works. Same as above missing top cover and some keys. Tandy model I with expansion, monitor and printer. Another one just like above without the printer and the monitor rolls a little, dirty vhold switch. Tandy Model 3 and IV and I have an external 5mg drive all work. Apple /// with profile drive, works, have two of these that work. Have two apple ///'s that don?t work without profiles. Any IIGs you could want, including a genuine system with an actually Apple SCSI card and external drive, with GSOS already loaded. And another with a RAMFAST scsi card with a 100mg CMS drive on it. PC JR's, complete, I think I have two with the monitors. Cocos, lots of cocos, one complete with drives and the actual RGB monitor that uses the special plug in on the bottom. Even a 4 slot expansion:) Atari, 8 and 16bit, STs, Xls, and an amiga 500 in the box There is a lot. I even have an Vulcan Accelerator card :) As well as a IIGS PC transporter card with drive, worked last time I tried it. Email me off list at thedm at sunflower.com I can take some pics and we can discuss details. If there is enough interest I'll see what I can do about making a master list. I haven't played with this stuff in 10 years, sad I know, I used to love it so much, but the last 5 years of my life has been hell and I?m ready to lighten up and move on. Keep my first ZX81 though, that's my baby :) And, it's really small. I am in the United States, Kansas specifically. Pickups are welcomed. for $2500.00 You can have everything except my Sinclair. But you better bring a big, big BIG truck. Two bookcases full of books, boxes of software and carts, and an 8 foot high by 14 foot shelf full of systems and drives, as well as three 2x8 foot industrial shelves full of systems as well. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 9:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Last Chance on Apple/TRS-80 Stuff before it gets recycled > I really need to get space back in my house and shed. > > Got 4 Apple IIGS Monitors tested and working at $20 each > TRS80 Magazines, Owners Manuals, Documentation, enough to fill the back > of the car for free. > Box of 50 Pin SCSI Hard Drives 40-80MB Drives $20 > Apple //e Platinum tested and working $20 > > Lots more from PC Stuff to external 3.5 drives all of it. > > Monday morning it will be recycled. > > Im located in Flushing MI I emailed Landon and I was prepared to buy the //e Platinum. I emailed him Saturday, which was plenty of time before his Monday morning deadline. He emailed me back today saying he already trashed it. Why the (BLEEP) would anyone who claims to care about vintage computers do that??? And why have a deadline if you're not going to keep it? Luckily, someone on this list advised me of his reputation, so I'm glad I didn't do business with Landon. If anyone * else * is selling a //e Platinum in good condition, then I'd really like to buy it. I'd prefer the second model (grey color) but would be happy with the first model (same color as earlier //e versions, but had the numeric keypad.) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 22 16:48:37 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120422225123.f2a2aaef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> <20120422225123.f2a2aaef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201204222148.RAA14631@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Or [...]: Reprogramm a NCR / Symbios 53Csomething to act as a SCSI > target, emulating a SCSI disk that is backed by an image file on the > host machine. I've seen it said that only some SCSI interfaces are capable of target mode. Anyone know how true that actually is? As much as I like SCSI, I'm not that familiar with typical implementations and how much they put in silicon versus firmware.... Mouse From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 17:01:50 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:01:50 -0300 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <0a7f01cd20d3$8c7a3560$6600a8c0@tababook> Can't you change the LUN with jumpers or some software? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Advantages of solid state media. > On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 8:25 AM, David Riley wrote: >> >> Someone pointed this out a few months ago: >> >> http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_73&products_id=180 >> >> I believe someone else mentioned they'd been trying it out (might have >> been Glen Slick?) and that there were varying degrees of success with >> anything but the CF card part on most classic OSes, since each port >> exists as a separate LUN on the same SCSI ID. I could be spuriously >> recalling a conversation that didn't happen, though. > > On those devices the PCCard slot is LUN 0 and the CF slot is LUN 1. > > I didn't have any luck using the device with the built in SCSI > controllers on either a VaxStation 3100 M76 or an InfoServer 1000, > regardless of which LUN I tried to use. The device LUNs would show up > in >>>SHOW DEVICES but errors would occur when trying to use them. > > The device seemed to work fine with the limited testing I did with a > CMD CQD-220. The configuration menu for the CMD CQD-220 lets you > specify both the SCSI target ID and the target LUN. I was able to use > a CF card in the LUN 0 PCCard slot with a CF-PCCard adapter and in the > native LUN 1 CF slot. Booted both RT-11 and XXDP from the device with > the CQD-220. > > -Glen > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 22 17:06:15 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:06:15 -0600 Subject: Doors and ucontrolers - creative thinking In-Reply-To: References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F9480D7.1080607@jetnet.ab.ca> Well creative thinking with your modern components, for all the people who still knock on doors rather ring the bell. http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/328 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 17:10:33 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:10:33 -0300 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0a8a01cd20d4$e5b0d7a0$6600a8c0@tababook> >> Huh? Not at all. It is the mainstay of pro-level digital camera >>work. It has just disappeared from consumer-shit-grade stuff because it >>is "huge". Heh. (still aching from moving an RK07 last night, and >>that's on the "light" side of my stuff!) In CF you get transfer speeds waaayyyy higher than with a SD card. So it will be the mainstay for digital cameras (which do not evolve to XQD) for some time Interesting is the price http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=xqd+card&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&cid=3327280682060691334&ei=GoGUT8euIJCQsAek1PzCDQ&ved=0CCIQrRI - $170 for the 128 GB SD gem http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=xqd+card&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&cid=11269952063218847979&ei=GoGUT8euIJCQsAek1PzCDQ&ved=0CCgQrRI - $695 for the 128GB CF... From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 17:41:58 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:41:58 -0500 Subject: Doors and ucontrolers - creative thinking In-Reply-To: <4F9480D7.1080607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9480D7.1080607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: ? On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 5:06 PM, ben wrote: > Well creative thinking with your modern components, > for all the people who still knock on doors rather ring the bell. > http://www.sparkfun.com/**tutorials/328 > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Apr 22 17:43:41 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 15:43:41 -0700 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. In-Reply-To: References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F94899D.1010205@mail.msu.edu> On 4/22/2012 2:31 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 8:25 AM, David Riley wrote: >> Someone pointed this out a few months ago: >> >> http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_73&products_id=180 >> >> I believe someone else mentioned they'd been trying it out (might have >> been Glen Slick?) and that there were varying degrees of success with >> anything but the CF card part on most classic OSes, since each port >> exists as a separate LUN on the same SCSI ID. I could be spuriously >> recalling a conversation that didn't happen, though. > On those devices the PCCard slot is LUN 0 and the CF slot is LUN 1. > > I didn't have any luck using the device with the built in SCSI > controllers on either a VaxStation 3100 M76 or an InfoServer 1000, > regardless of which LUN I tried to use. The device LUNs would show up > in>>>SHOW DEVICES but errors would occur when trying to use them. > > The device seemed to work fine with the limited testing I did with a > CMD CQD-220. The configuration menu for the CMD CQD-220 lets you > specify both the SCSI target ID and the target LUN. I was able to use > a CF card in the LUN 0 PCCard slot with a CF-PCCard adapter and in the > native LUN 1 CF slot. Booted both RT-11 and XXDP from the device with > the CQD-220. > > -Glen > I picked up one of these as well, and it seems to work pretty well with systems that don't care about the distinction between "fixed" and "removable" media -- the cards in the slots are reported as being removable which VMS doesn't seem to like much for using as a system drive (though NetBSD seems to be perfectly happy). One other caveat -- if you're using CF cards, make sure your they support the CF interface, and not just IDE; I have 3 Hitachi 4GB microdrives (tiny hard drives in a CF form-factor) and it turns out this particular model only has an IDE interface. The CF slot in these devices don't support the IDE interface and so they will not be recognized (which is a bummer...) Josh From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Apr 22 17:52:44 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 00:52:44 +0200 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <201204222148.RAA14631@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> <20120422225123.f2a2aaef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201204222148.RAA14631@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120423005244.481879e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Mouse wrote: > I've seen it said that only some SCSI interfaces are capable of target > mode. Yes. Thats a typical problem. The 53C??? might be a good candidate. AFAIK it contains a RISCy processor and is quite far programmable. Once I got a AlphaServer with PCI DSSI cards. The DSSI was implemented with 53C525... It would be especially interresting if the SCSI chip of the Sun ELC is capable of implementing a target. The ELC board isn't that large, fits in an external SCSI enclosure, can be driven with a 5 V / 2 A PSU, is a very nice piece of hardware, boots NetBSD nicely over Ethernet and would be able to do that iSCSI trickery. I have several ELC boards around from machines with dead CRTs. In the days of NetBSD 1.5 or 1.6 I built a CDR copy applience out of one... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 22 17:57:51 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 15:57:51 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> On Apr 22, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >> On Apr 21, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Mouse wrote: >> >>>> Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples does not yield >>>> accurate results. >>> >>> Neither does assuming that theory matches reality. >> >> Except that your reality is a *small* sample set. When you look at data >> for 1,000,000's of components you'll see different results. Until you look at > > And you have _ersonally_ looked at millions of components? Sorry, I've > seen too much bogus data already? No, all I can do is look at the data and do analysis on it. Look, when the company I work for is producing 20-30,000,000 "widgets" per quarter, the interval on the line is 3-6 per second (not in line with things like aluminum cans which are 1-3,000 per minute) but quite high given the complexity of the devices we're talking about you can't look at each device in detail. Statistics (and good design practices) are the only way that high volume manufacturing works. You look at trends in the test and reliability data. Trust me when I tell you the attention gets pretty intense when failure rates go up by as little as 0.01% and line shutdowns occur at 0.5% (then you don't want to be anywhere around). And of course then there's the warranty data. Which again is all statistically derived based upon life tests during the development (and spot checks during production). Again we're talking ridiculously large sums of money at stake. > >> truly large data sets and do the appropriate statistical analysis all you're >> really talking about is anecdotal evidence. > > How coome 2 of use here (at least) seem to have contradictory findings? Because it's anecdotal. BTW here's the definition: (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research Again, when you're dealing with large populations, looking at a few in isolation, is I'm sorry to say just anecdotal. > >>> It contradicts tony's experience. It contradicts mine as well. Do you >>> have experience pointing the other way? (I would tend to assume not, >>> since if you had I would expect you to have mentioned it by now, but >>> assumptions don't make for good data either.) >> >> Unfortunately I can't really point to it since it's proprietary to the companies > > Oh come now. And you expect us to believe comments based on data that's > not even available? Sorry, I'll stick with what my experience as taught > me, modifying it on the basis of more experience. Fine. There's lots of things that I've started to say on this list to deal with an argument and couldn't because it would violate various NDA's that I have to live under (I kinda like my job). Arguments on this (and other fora) while fun aren't worth sacrificing my livelihood. I'm sorry if you can't/won't understand how large companies work and the restrictions that are put on employees and the products (though some have alluded to here). Because if you did, I'm guessing that you wouldn't have made the comments you did. TTFN - Guy From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 18:16:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:16:07 -0400 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <201204222148.RAA14631@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> <20120422225123.f2a2aaef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201204222148.RAA14631@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <40BF3904-6432-4EB6-90BE-6FCF21D3DDF0@gmail.com> On Apr 22, 2012, at 5:48 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Or [...]: Reprogramm a NCR / Symbios 53Csomething to act as a SCSI >> target, emulating a SCSI disk that is backed by an image file on the >> host machine. > > I've seen it said that only some SCSI interfaces are capable of target > mode. Anyone know how true that actually is? As much as I like SCSI, > I'm not that familiar with typical implementations and how much they > put in silicon versus firmware.... I'm pretty sure the 53C9[0|4|6] chips can be run as both target and initiator. They're not actually all *that* smart; they just have some state machines for going through the more standard SCSI commands and a DMA interface. It's been a few months since I was poking through the datasheets, though, so again, I could be imagining things. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 22 18:27:07 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> References: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <201204222327.TAA16204@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > And of course then there's the warranty data. How long is the warranty period for the widgets in question? In my experience, warranty periods are ridiculously short these days (90 days, maybe as much as a year) reflecting a lack of manufacturer confidence in device reliability. Perhaps you're talking about something designed with more care. But I don't think anyone has been claiming that it's impossible to build reliable devices these days, only that most modern computers are crap for reliability compared to most classic computers, and that complex devices are, other things equal, less reliable than simple devices. Anecdotes about one particular manufacturer aren't very relevant, not unless it's one of the very few makers responsible for a significant fraction of the mass-market computers made today. (And maybe not even then, depending.) > Again we're talking ridiculously large sums of money at stake. So what? Companies not infrequently lose ridiculously large sums of money for various reasons. > Again, when you're dealing with large populations, looking at a few > in isolation, is I'm sorry to say just anecdotal. So is your data...as far as we're concerned. > I'm sorry if you can't/won't understand how large companies work and > the restrictions that are put on employees and the products (though > some have alluded to here). Because if you did, I'm guessing that > you wouldn't have made the comments you did. I'm not tony. But I think I mostly understand those restrictions. I don't expect you to violate NDA. But neither am I convinced by "trust me, I can't show you the data, just trust me". Especially when it runs directly counter to my own experience. Even more so when your supporting anecdotes appear irrelevant, as when you cite infant mortality rates (you can't check anything but infant mortality in time to shut down an assembly line, as you spoke of doing) as if it were relevant to with long-term reliability of the assembled devices; this makes me suspect we're actually talking about different things but, because we're using the same words, mistaking them for the same thing. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 22 18:27:30 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:27:30 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Tektronix 1992 catalog In-Reply-To: <1335071521.2648.YahooMailClassic@web184503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1335071521.2648.YahooMailClassic@web184503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1335071521.2648.YahooMailClassic at web184503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I thought I had every catalog from 1960 to 2000 but I don't have 1992 (or 197 2). 1992 and 1972 are the two years I haven't been able to find electronically (thanks, Al!). > I do have a 1991-1992 Product Catalog Supplement though. > > Is there something you want to look up? If possible, I would like scans/photos of the terminals and workstations section to use as citable source material for the terminals wiki. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Apr 22 18:39:03 2012 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <40BF3904-6432-4EB6-90BE-6FCF21D3DDF0@gmail.com> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> <20120422225123.f2a2aaef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201204222148.RAA14631@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <40BF3904-6432-4EB6-90BE-6FCF21D3DDF0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > > I'm pretty sure the 53C9[0|4|6] chips can be run as both target and > initiator. They're not actually all *that* smart; they just have > some state machines for going through the more standard SCSI commands > and a DMA interface. Indeed, they can. I once used some dual-53C96 TURBOchannel boards to form a network between a VAXstation 4000/60 and a VAXstation 4000/96. Did it to investigate what it took to write a network device driver for VMS. Had DECnet and TCP/IP running over it, but the plug got pulled before I could look at forming a cluster. The point of using the dual-53C96 board was so that one chip on each board could act as a target while the other acted as an initiator. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 22 18:49:09 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:49:09 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Tektronix 1992 catalog In-Reply-To: References: <1335071521.2648.YahooMailClassic@web184503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > 1992 and 1972 are the two years I haven't been able to find > electronically (thanks, Al!). I've placed catalogs that I've found outside bitsavers here: There were a few on the boat anchor manual archive and some scanned that Al gave me. I'm also looking for 1995-1997. The 1998 catalog doesn't have any terminals listed in it anymore, so Tektronix must have sold off the business by that point. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 18:58:50 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:58:50 -0700 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. In-Reply-To: <0a7f01cd20d3$8c7a3560$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <0a7f01cd20d3$8c7a3560$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2012 3:31 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > > Can't you change the LUN with jumpers or some software? > You can change the SCSI target ID with jumpers but not the LUN to card slot mapping. I have no information about any methods to tweak the firmware in this device. From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Apr 22 20:02:27 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:02:27 +0200 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120423010227.GA32581@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 12:22:40PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > And there's micro-SD, which almost feels *too* small... > > I'm still having difficulty finding a suitable pillbox container for > carrying half a dozen in my pocket and having difficulty labelling them. > I wish that they were manufactured with a hole through them to string > them. > > > Compact-Flash seems to have almost disappeared. It hasn't. It just ... shifted. It disappears from dirt cheap consumer grade (aka crap grade) but is firmly entrenched in the professional stuff. Look at any professional DSLR: they use CF cards. And there are still a fair number of embedded grade x86 mainboard with the CF connector right on the mainboard. > How long before SD and MicroSD become unobtanium? I expect that one to be around for quite some time yet, the (micro)SD cards are pretty ubiquitious these days - from cameras to phones to embedded systems (the Cubox I aquired recently uses a micro SD card as internal root disk). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 20:44:19 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 21:44:19 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> References: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Because if you did, I'm guessing that you wouldn't have > made the comments you did. Nahhh...he is just a troll. A really thin, worn out troll. -- Will From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Apr 22 20:39:17 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:39:17 +0200 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204222327.TAA16204@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> <201204222327.TAA16204@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120423013917.GB32581@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 07:27:07PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > And of course then there's the warranty data. > > How long is the warranty period for the widgets in question? In my > experience, warranty periods are ridiculously short these days (90 > days, maybe as much as a year) reflecting a lack of manufacturer > confidence in device reliability. Well, not everywhere ;-) In the EU for instance, the law mandates a warranty period of two years against "defects (inherently) present at the time of sale"[0] and for the first 6 months of that time, the onus is on the seller to _prove_ that the problem isn't a warranty case[2]. So, say, those super cheap caps that will fail after 4 months of continuous operation would be _really_ expensive down the line. Interesting side effect: a short time after that law went into effect, a lot of devices that used to have only soft "off" switches (i.e. TVs, VCRs, ... that you switch "on" and "off" via the remote (and which, obviously, are under (at least limited) power 24/7)) all of a sudden (re)gained hard (switching the mains) power switches. Yup, a noticeable fraction[1] of the devices used to develop faults in the PSUs after a couple of months due to penny pinching designs. Adding hard power switches was downright dirt cheap compared to dealing with the sudden explosion in warranty costs ;-) Kind regards, Alex. [0] IANAL so thats my laymans explanation [1] noticable to sellers & manufacturers, that is [2] And it is good PR not to quibble to much in the next 18 months of the warranty period -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 22 20:51:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 18:51:03 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <4F934794.8390.345AE88@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 12 11:49:40 pm, Message-ID: <4F945317.22884.2454898@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2012 at 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: > It has many advantages (including the fact it doesn';t put an almighty > glitch onthe supply line when it switches), but it may be a little > more 'fragile' than the bipoler one. Without checking, I am not sure > of its output current specification either, the bipolar 555 can drive > quite heavy load. C555, IIRC, is rated at 100 ma. Good enough for a lot of things. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 21:09:31 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:09:31 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: > > I've sold **hundreds** of these modems here in Brazil and never had returns like that you said :oP I was on the industrial side of USR (Total Control rack mount stuff). Very high quality, and very reliable. The problem was that due to various production problems, build quality was low, and yeild was terrible. There were huge piles of scrap and rework, with so much stuff getting rejected at final test, and tons of orders that could not be filled due to a lack of passing units. I was working elsewhere in the company (System Integration - essentially making complete dialup racks for both AOL and AT&T, but then they found I was a good quality auditer. They (Big Lou, just under Casey) gave me the power to squawk about anything that was out of spec. Fun times, and I am sure I pissed quite a few people off. Various rules were set up, so if I took a number of samples of a lot, and a flaw was found, the *whole* lot was failed and sent back, wherever in the line it was pulled, and reworked...and sometimes heads rolled. I never did anything for the consumer side of USR, however. -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 21:32:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:32:25 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F31095D-281E-43F9-8489-368CD545D7DF@gmail.com> On Apr 22, 2012, at 10:09 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I never did anything for the consumer side of USR, however. I suppose that's where the issue is. USR actually made really good consumer modems for a while, but around the time of 56k modems, I seem to remember the quality really going down the tubes for the consumer gear. At least they weren't the only ones going down the tubes in terms of quality then, because as I recall that's when the Internet was really becoming mainstream; I imagine the requirements of producing ever-larger quantities of stuff for the unwashed masses catches up to everyone in the end. :-) - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 22 23:37:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 00:37:40 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F94DC94.4060204@neurotica.com> On 04/22/2012 03:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> is "huge". Heh. (still aching from moving an RK07 last night, and >> that's on the "light" side of my stuff!) > > Last time I moved an RK07, I took it apart. The thing is very modular, > you cvna take off the covers, disk pack holder, filter, blower, PSU > assembly and cardcage very quickly. THen take off the mains input bracket > (it hides one of he screws, don't ask how I found that out) and 3 more > screw then retain the main chassis. That is fairly heavy but I carried it > with no problems. Eh, it's on wheels. The only problems come when one has to go up a step or two. In my case, this time, I had to jockey it around to be removed from a garage, which will happen tomorrow. Then I need to find a spindle bearing for it. I think John Wilson had one set aside for me but I've not heard from him in a very long time. I'd really like to get it running, along with the first one that is already "mostly" running. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 22 23:46:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 00:46:58 -0400 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120423005244.481879e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> <20120422225123.f2a2aaef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201204222148.RAA14631@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120423005244.481879e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4F94DEC2.6000107@neurotica.com> On 04/22/2012 06:52 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> I've seen it said that only some SCSI interfaces are capable of target >> mode. > Yes. Thats a typical problem. The 53C??? might be a good candidate. > AFAIK it contains a RISCy processor and is quite far programmable. Once > I got a AlphaServer with PCI DSSI cards. The DSSI was implemented with > 53C525... > > It would be especially interresting if the SCSI chip of the Sun ELC is > capable of implementing a target. The ELC board isn't that large, fits > in an external SCSI enclosure, can be driven with a 5 V / 2 A PSU, is a > very nice piece of hardware, boots NetBSD nicely over Ethernet and > would be able to do that iSCSI trickery. I have several ELC boards > around from machines with dead CRTs. In the days of NetBSD 1.5 or 1.6 > I built a CDR copy applience out of one... I once built a card cage (out of wood ;)) that held a row of ELC and SLC boards. It ran a bunch of services for an ISP. That setup worked amazingly well! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 23 00:03:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 01:03:25 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> On 04/22/2012 10:09 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I've sold **hundreds** of these modems here in Brazil and never had > returns like that you said :oP > > I was on the industrial side of USR (Total Control rack mount stuff). Very > high quality, and very reliable. The problem was that due to various > production problems, build quality was low, and yeild was terrible. There > were huge piles of scrap and rework, with so much stuff getting rejected at > final test, and tons of orders that could not be filled due to a lack of > passing units. I was working elsewhere in the company (System Integration - > essentially making complete dialup racks for both AOL and AT&T, but then > they found I was a good quality auditer. They (Big Lou, just under Casey) > gave me the power to squawk about anything that was out of spec. Fun times, > and I am sure I pissed quite a few people off. Various rules were set up, > so if I took a number of samples of a lot, and a flaw was found, the > *whole* lot was failed and sent back, wherever in the line it was pulled, > and reworked...and sometimes heads rolled. We bought quite a few Total Control racks at Digex, a few hundred of them. They were very nice boxes. I still have two of them; I nearly broke my toe on one just this afternoon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 23 00:11:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 01:11:08 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> References: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4F94E46C.50106@neurotica.com> On 04/22/2012 06:57 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> How coome 2 of use here (at least) seem to have contradictory findings? > > Because it's anecdotal. BTW here's the definition: > (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on > personal accounts rather than facts or research This is one thing that's quite backwards about our society. "I saw it with my own friggin' eyes" is discounted as "not necessarily true or reliable". That is just plain fucked up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 23 00:14:26 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 01:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F94DEC2.6000107@neurotica.com> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F943909.5030205@gmail.com> <20120422225123.f2a2aaef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201204222148.RAA14631@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120423005244.481879e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4F94DEC2.6000107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201204230514.BAA20340@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I have several ELC boards around from machines with dead CRTs. [...] > I once built a card cage (out of wood ;)) that held a row of ELC and > SLC boards. It ran a bunch of services for an ISP. That setup > worked amazingly well! That I would have liked to have seen. :) I've got something like a dozen of them, extracted from SLC/ELC machines - the experience behind the "headless SLC/ELC" page I wrote for sunhelp.org. I want to, someday, do something with them.... Target-mode SCSI would be a cool thing. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 23 01:54:43 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 23:54:43 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> There's a major DISADVANTAGE of a lot of solid-state media, including CF cards and SD cards. Because the erase block size inside the card is large, they have to do blocking and deblocking to that size. When you write a sector, the erase block containing that sector is read into a buffer in the controller. (The controller is part of the memory card, not part of the computer; the computer has a host adapter.) The sector data gets buffered, but not immediately written to the flash, because you don't want to wear it out with unnecessary erase cycles. When you write more sectors in the vicinity, they go into the buffer. Eventually the block does get erased and the data rewritten. Now suppose that you're running a multitasking OS with n files open for write. If you nave at least n of these buffers in the controller, things work smoothly. If the controller has fewer than n, it has to do the erase/write cycles more often. If n is much smaller than the number of files you are writing, the performance becomes very bad, and the wear to the flash goes up substantially. For CF and SD cards, the number of buffers in the controller is very small. Some have as few as two; the most I've seen is six. These cards are not meant for replacement of disks that have a lot of parallel activity. That's a serious concern when using them to replace SCSI or IDE drives. The intended usage mode for these cards is with MP3 players, which don't write much at all, cameras that generally only write one file at a time, and thus need only two buffers (data and FAT), and for manually transferring files, which also is usually only done one file at a time. At one point I saw a web page where various memory cards were benchmarked, and the number and size of the controllers' internal buffers were deduced, but I didn't save a link to it and am too lazy to find it again right now. SSDs with an IDE or SATA interface are intended for use as general-purpose disks, so (some? many? most?) of them don't have this problem, although there is a lot of variation between vendors. Off-brand SSDs, and even some name-brand ones, have been known to have this and other problems, but the name-brand vendors generally have gotten their act together. Eric From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 23 02:45:16 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 00:45:16 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 22, at 12:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On Apr 21, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Mouse wrote: >> >>>> Extrapolating long tail effects from single samples does not yield >>>> accurate results. >>> >>> Neither does assuming that theory matches reality. >> >> Except that your reality is a *small* sample set. When you look >> at data >> for 1,000,000's of components you'll see different results. Until >> you look at > > And you have _ersonally_ looked at millions of components? Sorry, I've > seen too much bogus data already... > >> truly large data sets and do the appropriate statistical analysis >> all you're >> really talking about is anecdotal evidence. > > How coome 2 of use here (at least) seem to have contradictory > findings? You have contradictory findings because it's your limited and narrow experience. Whatever or however many instances you have dealt with, they come through a filter of circumstances before they get to you. An assessment begins with a relative comparison of production quantities, followed by an assessment of the selective process of how and why the (very small) sample set happened to end up in your hands. Modern systems are made by the tens and hundreds of millions, 1970s minis were made by the thousands and tens-of-thousands. I've received more digital cameras to repair lately than 1960's discrete-component calculators. Does that mean modern digital cameras are less reliable than 1960s discrete calculators? Adding another data point, I will contradict the findings of the two of you: I've seen more failures of [simple] SSI devices than [complex] VLSI. None of these 3 anecdotes (mine or those of the two of you) are indicative of the comparitive reliability of these items. >>> It contradicts tony's experience. It contradicts mine as well. >>> Do you >>> have experience pointing the other way? (I would tend to assume >>> not, >>> since if you had I would expect you to have mentioned it by now, but >>> assumptions don't make for good data either.) >> >> Unfortunately I can't really point to it since it's proprietary to >> the companies > > Oh come now. And you expect us to believe comments based on data > that's > not even available? Sorry, I'll stick with what my experience as > taught > me, modifying it on the basis of more experience. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 23 02:56:33 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I've received more digital cameras to repair lately than 1960's > discrete-component calculators. Does that mean modern digital > cameras are less reliable than 1960s discrete calculators? In case anyone still cares, in my case, the lesson from experience still holds when corrected for such effects. Indeed, for several years I ran more machine-hours of Suns than peecees and I _still_ had more peecee hardware failures. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 23 03:17:48 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 01:17:48 -0700 Subject: OT: I saw it, really I did / was Re: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F94E46C.50106@neurotica.com> References: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> <4F94E46C.50106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 22, at 10:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/22/2012 06:57 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> How coome 2 of use here (at least) seem to have contradictory >>> findings? >> >> Because it's anecdotal. BTW here's the definition: >> (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on >> personal accounts rather than facts or research > > This is one thing that's quite backwards about our society. "I > saw it > with my own friggin' eyes" is discounted as "not necessarily true or > reliable". > > That is just plain fucked up. No, it's not. People lie, fabricate, embellish and misrepresent. If you've been on one side of a legal or other matter you may have found it frustrating not to be believed on your word, but if you've been on the target end of other people's lies you'll very much appreciate for their version (an anecdote) NOT being taken as "necessarily true or reliable". People - even if sincere - also confuse, conflate, misinterpret and misunderstand. Even if you really, truly believe you saw it with your own friggin' eyes, it still may not be an accurate or complete version of an event. Not only is this a basic tenet of modern justice systems, it's the basis of scientific inquiry. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 23 03:32:53 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 01:32:53 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 23, at 12:56 AM, Mouse wrote: >> I've received more digital cameras to repair lately than 1960's >> discrete-component calculators. Does that mean modern digital >> cameras are less reliable than 1960s discrete calculators? > > In case anyone still cares, Probably not, as it was a fairly ridiculous argument from the outset. > in my case, the lesson from experience > still holds when corrected for such effects. Indeed, for several > years > I ran more machine-hours of Suns than peecees and I _still_ had more > peecee hardware failures. What correction for what effect? Your [anecdote] is not particularly surprising, nor do I see a contradiction. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 23 03:33:04 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:33:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: <20120422143415.3be4a6e9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120422143415.3be4a6e9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Here's one of our machines at the institute, a SUN 4/260, put into >> service in 1988: > Interresting. What is its purpose? Controling an expensive scientific > instrument like a NMR spectroscope? Originally, file, NIS and login server. Today, mail host, DHCP and TFTP server for one of our subnets. Additionally, it has become part of our museum. I also still have our very first Gopher and HTTP server machine, a SUN 4/110, but it's in storage. Christian From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 04:05:08 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:05:08 +0200 Subject: OT: I saw it, really I did / was Re: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> <4F94E46C.50106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 10:17, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Apr 22, at 10:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ?This is one thing that's quite backwards about our society. ?"I saw it >> with my own friggin' eyes" is discounted as "not necessarily true or >> reliable". >> >> ?That is just plain fucked up. > > No, it's not. People lie, fabricate, embellish and misrepresent. > > If you've been on one side of a legal or other matter you may have found it > frustrating not to be believed on your word, but if you've been on the > target end of other people's lies you'll very much appreciate for their > version (an anecdote) NOT being taken as "necessarily true or reliable". > > People - even if sincere - also confuse, conflate, misinterpret and > misunderstand. Even if you really, truly believe you saw it with your own > friggin' eyes, it still may not be an accurate or complete version of an > event. > > Not only is this a basic tenet of modern justice systems, it's the basis of > scientific inquiry. > Totally agree. Humans are great at pattern recognition (to such a degree that we have many false positives) and at self-deception. This has become a quite popular subject with neuroscientists, and not just (one hopes) so they can get magicians to perform at their conference banquets. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/Teller-Reveals-His-Secrets.html?c=y&story=fullstory http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v9/n11/full/nrn2473.html Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 23 04:07:50 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 05:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201204230907.FAA02643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> I've received more digital cameras to repair lately than 1960's >>> discrete-component calculators. Does that mean modern digital >>> cameras are less reliable than 1960s discrete calculators? >> in my case, the lesson from experience still holds when corrected >> for such effects. > What correction for what effect? "A is far commoner than B, so seeing more instances of failing A than of failing B does not allow any deductions about the relative failure rates". I took that to be your point; even if it's not the point you intended, it's a point I felt worth addressing. I've personally seen far more failures of well-designed computers than of experimental scramjets. Does that mean experimental scramjets are the more reliable of the two? No; I just have never had anything to do with scramjets, reliable or otherwise. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 23 05:12:57 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 06:12:57 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120423101257.GA8152@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > I've received more digital cameras to repair lately than 1960's > > discrete-component calculators. Does that mean modern digital > > cameras are less reliable than 1960s discrete calculators? > > In case anyone still cares, in my case, the lesson from experience > still holds when corrected for such effects. Indeed, for several years > I ran more machine-hours of Suns than peecees and I _still_ had more > peecee hardware failures. I've had *many* more years of PC experience, and I've yet to see one fail as bad as the SGI I used in college between '91-96 (let's see ... the SGI required a new video card and the mother board replaced twice; also, the video monitor slowly lost colors over time as well). -spc (Although I've had to replace my work laptop once already ... ) From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 23 09:23:17 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:23:17 -0400 Subject: one good ripoff deserves another :-( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9565D5.3060405@verizon.net> On 4/20/2012 11:32 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > The Sharper Image pulled a similar ripoff during their bankruptcy. > All gift cards were invalidated, but were then honored > ONLY if you paid an equal amount towards a purchase. > What a steal: turning perhaps $100 million of debt > from pre-purchased gift cards into a matching-grant program > to get another $100 million for their overpriced stuff :-/ And of course their margins are probably large enough, where the matching cash actually pays for all of the products, and gift cards are more or less thrown away. You think are getting a deal, but in fact are just not overpaying as much as you normally do. Keith From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 23 09:42:00 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:42:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Signetics TWIN (was: Signetics 2650 Evaluation board PC1001) In-Reply-To: References: <4F6276F8.2080800@telus.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Mar 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > Speaking of the Signetics 2650, does anyone have anything about the Signetics > TWIN (e.g. manuals, schematics)? We have a bare system without floppy drive, > but with a bunch of hard-sectored floppies that I have just dumped. They > containt mostly SDOS related stuff, e.g. system sources, Pascal compiler etc. Is there really nothing? I'm especially interested in the floppy interface. I suppose that the external drive box contained the controller that attaches to the master CPU board. Since I don't have the drive box (nothing except the base system) I can't revive the system at the moment. Christian From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 23 09:51:22 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:51:22 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> On 4/23/2012 1:03 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/22/2012 10:09 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> I was on the industrial side of USR (Total Control rack mount stuff). Very >> high quality, and very reliable. The problem was that due to various >> production problems, build quality was low, and yeild was terrible. > We bought quite a few Total Control racks at Digex, a few hundred of > them. They were very nice boxes. I still have two of them; I nearly > broke my toe on one just this afternoon. > > -Dave Yes, I remember selling and supporting those total control racks. We never sold many of them, and they were fairly high priced. There was a serial connection for management in the back of them. Pretty straight-forward to manage, IIRC. USR was *the* modem company for a long time. I loved their products. I still have a Courier dual-standard that supported both 14.4k AND 16.8k. Great modem. It's like a foot+ deep, flat, but I loved the printed hayes command set reference printed on the bottom. I think I still have a kick-ass USR modem card too. Maybe PCI, or ISA. And I used a sportster for a long time. I will say that towards the end of the modem-era, it seemed like power surges on the telephone line used to fry the relay regularly. It never happened for years and years, and then it happened perhaps twice in two years. I eventually ran it through a UPS for surge protection, and that prevented future problems. Keith From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Apr 23 09:58:11 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:58:11 -0300 Subject: Are there any brazilians on this list? In-Reply-To: <081e01cd2096$fe7de860$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081e01cd2096$fe7de860$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <201204231458.q3NEwQ84038722@billy.ezwind.net> Alexandre, > Beyond me and the curator of the Museu do Computador here in Sao Paulo, > is there any brazilians on this list? :) You sent me an email on November 10 saying "Hey, nice to see you are on this list too" in Portuguese, remember? :-) If there are any more of us here, I would like to ask if anybody has technical details about machines like the Cobra 530 minicomputers. I have learned much about all kinds of old machines, specially through the documentation available in BitSavers. But the only local stuff I have found was a non technical thesis about the "Patinho Feio" which cites some technical texts about that and the G-10 machines. All other information I have is from historical books and newspaper articles. While it is interesting to read that the Cobra 530 was more advanced than the other 16 bit minis of the time, I would rather judge for myself. After all, they say more or less the same thing about Cobra's SOX (Unix clone) and my experience with it was that it wasn't very good at all. -- Jecel p.s.: a week ago a new science museum was opened in my town (S?o Carlos, SP). Though it isn't that large, there is space that could be used to have a computer museum and there are several people interested in making that happen. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 10:05:36 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:05:36 -0300 Subject: Are there any brazilians on this list? References: <081e01cd2096$fe7de860$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204231458.q3NEwQ84038722@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <02b301cd2162$91a9fa40$6600a8c0@tababook> Ops, I forgot you Jecel, sorry :) And I remembered you last weekend when I found an Apple analog board I got to repair my Unitron 512...Interesting that from the three known brazilian users, all of them live in Sao Paulo :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Are there any brazilians on this list? > Alexandre, > >> Beyond me and the curator of the Museu do Computador here in Sao >> Paulo, >> is there any brazilians on this list? :) > > You sent me an email on November 10 saying "Hey, nice to see you are on > this list too" in Portuguese, remember? :-) > > If there are any more of us here, I would like to ask if anybody has > technical details about machines like the Cobra 530 minicomputers. I > have learned much about all kinds of old machines, specially through the > documentation available in BitSavers. But the only local stuff I have > found was a non technical thesis about the "Patinho Feio" which cites > some technical texts about that and the G-10 machines. All other > information I have is from historical books and newspaper articles. > > While it is interesting to read that the Cobra 530 was more advanced > than the other 16 bit minis of the time, I would rather judge for > myself. After all, they say more or less the same thing about Cobra's > SOX (Unix clone) and my experience with it was that it wasn't very good > at all. > > -- Jecel > p.s.: a week ago a new science museum was opened in my town (S?o Carlos, > SP). Though it isn't that large, there is space that could be used to > have a computer museum and there are several people interested in making > that happen. > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 10:29:39 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:29:39 -0500 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F957563.20409@gmail.com> On 04/23/2012 09:51 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > USR was *the* modem company for a long time. I loved their products. > > I still have a Courier dual-standard that supported both 14.4k AND 16.8k. > Great modem. It's like a foot+ deep, flat, but I loved the printed hayes > command set reference printed on the bottom. I liked the internal and older external USR ones - the cases on the later externals made it look like they'd been given away inside boxes of breakfast cereal, though. Mind you, I like devices in big heavy square-ish boxes on the desktop - small items just fall over easily, or get pulled off the desk by their own cables, or still occupy space but with the downside that I can't stack other items on top of them. The majority seem to think that miniaturization is the holy grail though (and I suppose the smaller the case, the less material used, so it appeals to the manufacturer too) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 10:41:53 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:41:53 -0500 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120423101257.GA8152@brevard.conman.org> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120423101257.GA8152@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4F957841.5020604@gmail.com> On 04/23/2012 05:12 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: >>> I've received more digital cameras to repair lately than 1960's >>> discrete-component calculators. Does that mean modern digital >>> cameras are less reliable than 1960s discrete calculators? >> >> In case anyone still cares, in my case, the lesson from experience >> still holds when corrected for such effects. Indeed, for several years >> I ran more machine-hours of Suns than peecees and I _still_ had more >> peecee hardware failures. > > I've had *many* more years of PC experience, and I've yet to see one fail > as bad as the SGI I used in college between '91-96 (let's see ... the SGI > required a new video card and the mother board replaced twice; also, the > video monitor slowly lost colors over time as well). I suspect most of us can come up with isolated cases like that though (both on the vintage and modern side of the coin). I suspect the split's been roughly even for me, but (straying from the topic a little) two points from my own personal observations: 1) I've had far more faults with modern hardware *that I can't fix* than I have with older items, 2) I've had far more *software* glitches bring modern hardware to its knees than I have with older kit. Ultimately it's downtime and inconvenience that matters to me more than failure rate, I think - and for me the older, simpler approaches win out there (which isn't to say that it works out that way for everyone). cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 10:47:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:47:25 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F957563.20409@gmail.com> References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <4F957563.20409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32EBCB2A-AB9A-4546-898D-18D0A218968F@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Mind you, I like devices in big heavy square-ish boxes on the desktop - small items just fall over easily, or get pulled off the desk by their own cables, or still occupy space but with the downside that I can't stack other items on top of them. The majority seem to think that miniaturization is the holy grail though (and I suppose the smaller the case, the less material used, so it appeals to the manufacturer too) I don't mind miniaturization, as long as it's done intelligently. I like my Netgear 8-port switch that's on my desktop an awful lot; it's the size of about two packs of cards, and it has a nice, solid- feeling metal case. It's also totally square, so I can stack other things on top of it. The only irritant is that the power inlet from the wall brick and the ports are on opposite sides, which would be great if it were a rackmount switch, but not so great for a desktop one. On the other hand, I remember my 56k modem from the end of the dial- up era; I think it was a Global Village one? In any case, it was nice and small, but (as you said) so light that the cables tended to pull it off the desk, and they made this "cute-looking" little bulge at the top for the speaker, which meant you couldn't stack anything atop it. Infuriating. I think I ended up just stashing it under the desk. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 23 11:01:20 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > We bought quite a few Total Control racks at Digex, a few hundred of > them. They were very nice boxes. I still have two of them; I nearly > broke my toe on one just this afternoon. > Those Total Control Net servers were awesome. I LOVED working with them back in '97 when I was sysadmin for a local ISP. The only problem I had was getting US Worst to get the damn PRI circuit orders right. Fun times. *wistful sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 11:14:41 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:14:41 -0400 Subject: USR Message-ID: > Those Total Control Net servers were awesome. It is a good think you included "Total Control" in your post, because USR had an unrelated product called NetServer that was the complete opposite of "awesome". They, along with friends FaxServer and CommServer, were absolute disasters, with field failures hanging around 50 percent. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 23 11:42:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:42:03 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Tektronix 1992 catalog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F95865B.5050000@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2012 09:56 PM, Richard wrote: > Anyone got one? I think I have a 1992 catalog at home but am not certain; I know it's right around that period. I am in FL at the moment and will check when I get back to PA in a few days. If I do you're welcome to it. (as I'm pretty sure Richard has me filtered, perhaps someone can forward this to him for me) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 23 11:43:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:43:30 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F9586B2.5010609@neurotica.com> On 04/23/2012 12:01 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> We bought quite a few Total Control racks at Digex, a few hundred of >> them. They were very nice boxes. I still have two of them; I nearly >> broke my toe on one just this afternoon. >> > Those Total Control Net servers were awesome. I LOVED working with them > back in '97 when I was sysadmin for a local ISP. The only problem I had > was getting US Worst to get the damn PRI circuit orders right. Fun > times. *wistful sigh* They really were fun times. We got so much done with that technology. Frequently these days I'll find something, either hardware or software, and think "wow, if I'd had this in the 90s, we could've taken over the world!" We eventually moved to Cisco AS5200s, which were also quite an experience. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 12:06:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> References: , <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com>, <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2012 at 10:51, Keith Monahan wrote: > USR was *the* modem company for a long time. I loved their products. Well, that's a distinction that was passed around for years. The distinction used to belong to AT&T/WE modems, then Anderson-Jacobson, Milgo, Racal-Vadic. By the time you hit the late 70's, there were various modems-du-jour. Telebit, Motorola, Hayes... I used a Racal- Vadic 3451 triple modem for quite some time. But modems of that time were extremely dumb--so they tended to work forever if designed correctly. I think I have a floppy drive box somewhere that's powered from a Racal power supply. I still have a few of my BBS modems, all external and mostly USR--a Courier HST, a Dual-Standard, a V.Everything... I think it's remarkable that USR would sell you an upgrade kit (usually a PROM and perhaps an SRAM chip) rather than demand that you buy a completely new unit. Not something that would happen today. I have some consumer-level modems that were used less than a week, including the Zoom, Hayes "business modem", etc. I got rid of my Sportster 56K modems within a couple of months of having purchased them. Not very good, IMOHO. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 12:11:43 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:11:43 -0400 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. In-Reply-To: References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 8:25 AM, David Riley wrote: >> >> Someone pointed this out a few months ago: >> >> http://a4000t.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_73&products_id=180 >> > On those devices the PCCard slot is LUN 0 and the CF slot is LUN 1. Hmm... interesting. I've had mixed success with multiple-LUN SCSI devices and classic platforms. In terms of CF media, CF-to-PCMCIA adapters are passive and cheap (I've gotten them for $7 and under in the past), so a host that only expects targets at LUN 0 can be accommodated (though I've seen issues with setup software and devices that report multiple LUNs, too... those platforms seem to only work with embedded SCSI hard disks, not CD changers or older SCSI-to-ESDI or SCSI-to-MFM bridge boards, etc). Someone else posted about reporting removable vs fixed and making VMS unhappy - I'm guessing that this is reported in some bit in the IDENT packet? I wonder if it would be feasible to hack the VMS driver to jam that bit to "fixed" upon receipt to at least quiet any process that would consume it. This presumes that it's only a problem once the OS is running - it's a harder job to hack VMB.EXE and/or SCSI VAXstation firmware. Good to hear a good report from tests on the CQD-220. My own interest in such an adapter would be mostly for Amigas and VAXen, though if I do get one, I'm likely to experiment with it on a number of older platforms (Compact monochrome "classic" Macs come to mind). I can easily see mounting one of these in an old external Sun CD-ROM case and moving from machine to machine. -ethan From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 23 12:33:10 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:33:10 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com>, <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F959256.604@verizon.net> On 4/23/2012 1:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Apr 2012 at 10:51, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> USR was *the* modem company for a long time. I loved their products. > > Well, that's a distinction that was passed around for years. The > distinction used to belong to AT&T/WE modems, then Anderson-Jacobson, > Milgo, Racal-Vadic. By the time you hit the late 70's, there were > various modems-du-jour. Telebit, Motorola, Hayes... I used a Racal- > Vadic 3451 triple modem for quite some time. But modems of that time > were extremely dumb--so they tended to work forever if designed > correctly. I forgot about the LCD-configured Motorola modems. They were built like brick shithouses and while very expensive -- they were also reliable and perfect for "dumb" devices that could not dial. They could do DTR-based dialing etc. They were heavy and took up a lot of space, but I liked them. I seem to remember the original Hayes modems being pretty good products too. Keith From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Apr 23 12:59:14 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:59:14 +0000 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80D0A5@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Fred Cisin Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 11:05 AM >> What kind of material are you going to make them out of? Will it be >> archival quality material; something that will last a long time without >> chipping or outgassing? > Rosewood? I appreciate the humor, but I'd like to point out that woods in general are not good archival storage materials. They are seldom pH/pOH neutral, they outgas, they are subject to fire, mold, insects, etc., and are just all around Not The Right Thing(TM). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 13:09:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:09:26 -0700 Subject: Modems; was: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F959256.604@verizon.net> References: , <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F959256.604@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F953866.29144.965D97@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2012 at 13:33, Keith Monahan wrote: > I forgot about the LCD-configured Motorola modems. They were built > like brick shithouses and while very expensive -- they were also > reliable and perfect for "dumb" devices that could not dial. They > could do DTR-based dialing etc. They were heavy and took up a lot of > space, but I liked them. Wasn't Motorola the old Codex? The old leased-line modems were marvels--ISTR that the Milgo version from the late 60s took up about a 6U rack slot--for a single 2400 bps channel. It had all sorts of equalization settings. Codex was a big competitor--and I think there were some legal issues between the two companies. Does anyone still have one of these beasts? I can't imagine why anyone would hang onto one, but you never know. --Chuck P.S. And we can't forget Gandalf modems, either. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 13:17:18 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:17:18 -0300 Subject: Modems; was: Arduino vs 555 reliability References: , <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F959256.604@verizon.net> <4F953866.29144.965D97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <042b01cd217d$6d62c2f0$6600a8c0@tababook> > Does anyone still have one of these beasts? I can't imagine why > anyone would hang onto one, but you never know. I had some codex modems, but after the 'net, I disassembled and recycled everything From doc at vaxen.net Mon Apr 23 13:22:53 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:22:53 -0500 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com>, <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F959DFD.9070205@vaxen.net> On 4/23/12 12:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have some consumer-level modems that were used less than a week, > including the Zoom, Hayes "business modem", etc. I got rid of my > Sportster 56K modems within a couple of months of having purchased > them. Not very good, IMOHO. Weren't the Sportster 56K modems all WinModems? (Now THERE'S a term that still fills me with rage, all these years later) Doc From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 23 13:35:59 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:35:59 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F959DFD.9070205@vaxen.net> References: , <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com>, <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> <4F959DFD.9070205@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4F95A10F.8000002@verizon.net> On 4/23/2012 2:22 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 4/23/12 12:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I have some consumer-level modems that were used less than a week, >> including the Zoom, Hayes "business modem", etc. I got rid of my >> Sportster 56K modems within a couple of months of having purchased >> them. Not very good, IMOHO. > > Weren't the Sportster 56K modems all WinModems? > > (Now THERE'S a term that still fills me with rage, all these years later) > > > Doc Definitely not. The WinModems were primarily off-brand modems, or they were cards integrated into laptops or pci/isa cards. I never actually saw a WinModem firsthand. I used a Sportster 56k modem with my Amiga. There was no driver support. :) Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 13:36:28 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:36:28 -0300 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability References: , <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com>, <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> <4F959DFD.9070205@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <044f01cd2180$06908f00$6600a8c0@tababook> > Weren't the Sportster 56K modems all WinModems? No, most of them (at least here in Brazil) were DSP ones. Some with texas DSPs, some with proprietary (maybe the same texas with different markings) numbers > (Now THERE'S a term that still fills me with rage, all these years > later) You're not the only one... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 13:42:12 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:42:12 -0300 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability References: , <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com>, <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> <4F959DFD.9070205@vaxen.net> <4F95A10F.8000002@verizon.net> Message-ID: <045801cd2180$ecc9a1a0$6600a8c0@tababook> > The WinModems were primarily off-brand modems, or they were cards > integrated into laptops or pci/isa cards. No, there was a USR winmodem http://www.56k.com/reports/winmodem.shtml From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Apr 23 13:49:59 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:49:59 +0100 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation - update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7E87B05AB49C4ACA9152DE59C75772B1@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Except that such places, at least round here, ask nasty > quesitons if you > take alonge abundel of sheets with a copyright notice on them... Ah yes. Ferrari-gate all over again :-) > Where are you based? Just in case I could visit with the manual... I'm in Abingdon but the scanner is in Bracknell. Sadly they won't let you in to watch. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 23 13:51:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120423114652.F44734@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > USR was *the* modem company for a long time. I loved their products. > I still have a Courier dual-standard that supported both 14.4k AND > . . . > I think I still have a kick-ass USR modem card too. Maybe PCI, or ISA. > . . . > And I used a sportster for a long time. I will say that towards the end It often seemed hard to believe that Couriers and Sportsters came from the same company. Couriers EARNED a reputation for being one of the best and most reliable, and replaced Hayes. Sportsters, . . . were often hard to give away. Was the logo of USR the same as the logo for the USR in the Will Smith "I, Robot" movie? (were they the same company?) From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 23 13:59:33 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:59:33 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <045801cd2180$ecc9a1a0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: , <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com>, <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com> <4F959DFD.9070205@vaxen.net> <4F95A10F.8000002@verizon.net> <045801cd2180$ecc9a1a0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F95A695.4080701@verizon.net> On 4/23/2012 2:42 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> The WinModems were primarily off-brand modems, or they were cards >> integrated into laptops or pci/isa cards. > > No, there was a USR winmodem > > http://www.56k.com/reports/winmodem.shtml But not all 56k Sportsters were winmodems, which was the point. Keith From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 23 14:02:20 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:02:20 -0700 Subject: Modems; was: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F953866.29144.965D97@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9529C1.22410.5D2882@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F959256.604@verizon.net> <4F953866.29144.965D97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 23, at 11:09 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wasn't Motorola the old Codex? The old leased-line modems were > marvels--ISTR that the Milgo version from the late 60s took up about > a 6U rack slot--for a single 2400 bps channel. It had all sorts of > equalization settings. Codex was a big competitor--and I think there > were some legal issues between the two companies. > > Does anyone still have one of these beasts? I can't imagine why > anyone would hang onto one, but you never know. I have a Bunker-Ramo modem from the 60's. Pic with two of the circuit boards removed for viewing: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/BunkerRamo.jpg It would be about 3U in a rack. I think it's only 300 bps, but I should make some measurements. Why do I keep it? Good question. Because no one else does? I'd rather it be in a tech museum than my house. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 14:08:23 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:08:23 -0300 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <20120423114652.F44734@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <049c01cd2184$7ebb3490$6600a8c0@tababook> > It often seemed hard to believe that Couriers and Sportsters came from the > same company. > Couriers EARNED a reputation for being one of the best and most reliable, > and replaced Hayes. > Sportsters, . . . were often hard to give away. Dunno why. Sportsters were always reliable modems (here in Brazil). I had a courier because I was filthy rich (hahahaha) and I wanted to have the "ferrari of the modems" but it didn't perform better than my 33K sportster How many of you used the BOCA 28800 modem? ;oD From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 14:40:19 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 20:40:19 +0100 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204230907.FAA02643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> <201204230907.FAA02643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> On 23/04/2012 10:07, Mouse wrote: >>>> I've received more digital cameras to repair lately than 1960's >>>> discrete-component calculators. Does that mean modern digital >>>> cameras are less reliable than 1960s discrete calculators? >>> in my case, the lesson from experience still holds when corrected >>> for such effects. >> What correction for what effect? > "A is far commoner than B, so seeing more instances of failing A than > of failing B does not allow any deductions about the relative failure > rates". I took that to be your point; even if it's not the point you > intended, it's a point I felt worth addressing. > > I've personally seen far more failures of well-designed computers than > of experimental scramjets. Does that mean experimental scramjets are > the more reliable of the two? No; I just have never had anything to do > with scramjets, reliable or otherwise. My favourite is that as more people in the UK are injured by tripping on loose slippers than are injuried by chain saws then slippers are more dangerous that chain saws. Fact is very few folks in the UK own chain saws... (Not sure how well slippers translates into West Pondian but lightweight house shoes...) > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 23 14:54:06 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> <201204230907.FAA02643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204231954.PAA13280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] slippers [...] > (Not sure how well slippers translates into West Pondian but > lightweight house shoes...) That's roughly what my (North American) eye read it as; I think that, at least in that usage, it's one of those words that doesn't need translation when it crosses the Atlantic. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 15:03:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:03:25 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204231954.PAA13280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> <201204230907.FAA02643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> <201204231954.PAA13280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5B44E473-1405-49A1-83B6-027507B61E27@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [...] slippers [...] >> (Not sure how well slippers translates into West Pondian but >> lightweight house shoes...) > > That's roughly what my (North American) eye read it as; I think that, > at least in that usage, it's one of those words that doesn't need > translation when it crosses the Atlantic. Yeah, we call them "slippers" here too in the Colonies. A lot of clothing slang makes it across fairly intact, with the notable exception of "pants" (which is what we call our trousers, much to the confusion of our British friends). - Dave From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 23 15:04:10 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:04:10 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> <201204230907.FAA02643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F95B5BA.5090005@verizon.net> On 4/23/2012 3:40 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > (Not sure how well slippers translates into West Pondian but lightweight > house shoes...) It translates just fine. If I'm at home, I'm almost always wearing a pair. Now a gentleman from the UK visited my company, and he was wearing fabric straps over the shoulders to hold up his trousers. And I said, "I'll have to pickup a pair of suspenders." And the guy was laughing, saying, "why in the world would you do that?" And I said, "Because they look nice." Little did either of us know this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspenders Keith From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 13:10:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:10:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F940D41.32013.1347C98@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 22, 12 01:53:05 pm Message-ID: > At less than USD$1.00 for a PIC, it's hard to rationalize on a faint > possibility. It works. And that sums up what I hate about most modern stuff... If you add the '38, OK, you multiply the overall cost by 2 or 3 times. But you get a deivce that when it gets zapped, can be repaired by finding a '38 in the junk box,or in the local electroncis shop and about 5 minutes of soldering. As opposed to having to find a PIC (which the local electronics shope probably doesn't stcok), then having to get the ROM image from somewhere, and having to program it. Paying extra at the start for standard I/O buffers is well worth it to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 13:13:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:13:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 22, 12 06:02:55 pm Message-ID: > > > Hmm.. I have a USR modem here. It's been fine for many years _after_ I > > resoldered a lot of dry joints shortly after I got it (on the PCB and on > > the secodnary of the transformer in the mains adapter). Oh, and > > re-crimped the telephone plug. > > So to be honest, I don't think much of USR prodcution or quality control. > > I've sold **hundreds** of these modems here in Brazil and never had > returns like that you said :oP From the Sportster 28800 to the Courier > V-Everything-but-the-girl, and the older couriers (I had a 9600/14400 HST) OK, I probalby had a bad one. The modem in question is a Sportster 14400. It was terrible when I got it, it dropped the line, locked up, and so on. After I resoldered it, it's been fine for 20 years or so (well beyond what I suspect is the design lifetime). So, yes, its fine now. By the comments of some peopel here, though it shouldn't be in that reworkign the PCB should ahve reduced the reliability. Maybe it did, if I'd got one that didn't need reworking, it wowould go on even longer. But 20 years without problems, turned on and used just about every day, doesn't seen unrelaible to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 13:15:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:15:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX on Reddit In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Apr 22, 12 02:25:40 pm Message-ID: > Soldering while barefoot allows you to grasp something grounded with your > toes rather than wearing one of those ill-fitting grounding straps. It also lets you pick up dropped componets with your toes... And emit odd screams when you drop a blob of solder on your foot. (Done both.... The former all the time, the latter too often for my liking. But I hate having things on my feet too). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 13:20:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:20:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204222139.RAA14441@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 22, 12 05:39:54 pm Message-ID: > > > [...] I relaised you can't really compare like with like. Thew old > > computers that I (and others here) run are oftne very expensive > > manchiens (when new), as opposed to the <$500 stuff that most people > > have today. It can't be fair to compare the build and reliabiltiy of > > those. > > I'd say, yes and no. OK, I find my classics to be more reliavble than modern PCs. Meaning that the PDP11s, HP9800s, HP9000s, etc are more reliable than the $500 PCs from the local shop. I do not find that suprising. > > Take, for exmaple, one of my SS20s. A modern machine built with the > same kind of engineering care and attention that went into that SS20 > quite possibly _would_ be the more reliable of the two - I have no real > basis for comparison there. My only conserni is things like lead-free solder. Tin whisker growth is a problem, and I am not sure that it can be easily avoided. I do know that it's a problem in all sorts of modern stuff... > > But when compared in terms of what's common - what my employer put on > employees' desks at work back 20, 30 years ago, versus what my employer > puts on employees' desks at work today (or, in my case, would if I Indeed... Go back 40 years and there was essentially only one desktop computer (HP9830). It's built like a brick outhouse, and mine still runs (albeit with some minor repairs over the years). On the otehr hand it cost rater hmnore than a family car at the time. Now you can get very cheap (relaitelve) computers. It's not suprinsing that they are not wrll made. And alas too may people -- indeed too many compaines -- buy on price alone. I guess what really saddnes me is that you can't buy a PC built like an HP9830 (metaphorically) at any price. Yes, there are relaible devies made nwo, but jsut try to buy one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 13:28:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:28:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Doors and ucontrolers - creative thinking In-Reply-To: <4F9480D7.1080607@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Apr 22, 12 04:06:15 pm Message-ID: > > Well creative thinking with your modern components, > for all the people who still knock on doors rather ring the bell. > http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/328 > When I was an undergraduate, I fixed a vibration switch (one of those used for burglar alarms) to my room door (on the inside). Knocking on the door caused that to switch, triggering a monostable. This operated a musical dorobell IC and turnd on some LEDs on the door (set by a switch inside my room) that indicated where I was likely to be foubd... [Actually this was part of a more complex system, including a keyboard on the otuside of the door linked to my OS-9 system so you could leave me a message...] If/wehn I get a house where I can make whatever modifications I like, I am goign to do something like this : Make an 'electric knocker'. This is essemtially an electric bell with the gong replaed by a hollow wooden box. It's shown in 'Harper's Electricity Book for Boys' (this has been reprieted recently, but I have the original). Wire that to the pushbutton on the doorframe Fit a viration swithc to the door, wire that to a monostable an a bell. Thus knocking o nteh door rings the bell, pressing the button causes knocking. And of course put up the obvious sign : 'Please knock if an answer is not requuired'. And see how long it takes poople to run away screaming :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 13:33:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:33:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Apr 22, 12 03:57:51 pm Message-ID: > > How coome 2 of use here (at least) seem to have contradictory = > findings? > > Because it's anecdotal. BTW here's the definition: > (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on > personal accounts rather than facts or research By the same token, your evidence is anecdotal to me. You have not provided (for perfectly valdi reasons) any hard data, and certainly not any hard data that I can verify. OK, I haven't either. But I ahve to say that while you may not beleive what I see, I certainly do. I know what components I rpelace... > Fine. There's lots of things that I've started to say on this list to = > deal with an > argument and couldn't because it would violate various NDA's that I have = > to > live under (I kinda like my job). Arguments on this (and other fora) = > while > fun aren't worth sacrificing my livelihood. > > I'm sorry if you can't/won't understand how large companies work and the > restrictions that are put on employees and the products (though some = > have I mosster certainly understnad that (having signed a fair few NDAs in my time too, and yes, I do honour them). And that's the 'valid reasons' I mentioend. But to be fair, if I can't verify the data, why on earth should _I_ beleive it? You could be telling me anything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 14:14:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 20:14:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F94E46C.50106@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 23, 12 01:11:08 am Message-ID: > This is one thing that's quite backwards about our society. "I saw it > with my own friggin' eyes" is discounted as "not necessarily true or > reliable". Well, actually, people's evidence can be very unrliable, either deliberately or innocently. So, yes, there is no reason why anyone should believe anythign I say. But equally, I do believe what I observe (probably incorrectly in some cases), at least until I've got further relaiable evidence (not just 'I am telling you') to modify it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 13:58:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:58:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F94DC94.4060204@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 23, 12 00:37:40 am Message-ID: [RK07] > Eh, it's on wheels. The only problems come when one has to go up a > step or two. In my case, this time, I had to jockey it around to be > removed from a garage, which will happen tomorrow. Ah, mine had been taken off the stand (I did get the stand too, it;s now back on it). And, yes, there were steps, tight corners, etc to negotiate. It was a lot less hassle ot take it to bits (it took only a few minutes) than to have to manhandle it. And I learnt how the drive went together which was a help later on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 14:34:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 20:34:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 23, 12 00:45:16 am Message-ID: > You have contradictory findings because it's your limited and narrow > experience. Whatever or however many instances you have dealt with, > they come through a filter of circumstances before they get to you. Sure, I don;'t, for example, see those devices whcih fialed in production or initial testing. On the otehr hand, nobody else outside the factory does either, so my expericne probably is relevant for what I do. > I've received more digital cameras to repair lately than 1960's > discrete-component calculators. Does that mean modern digital cameras > are less reliable than 1960s discrete calculators? OK, we can all be silly about this. I can say without fear of contradiction that I've replaced more TTL than microcontrollers in HP9800s for the simple reason that there are no microcontrollers in HP9800s. And these machiens are actually a counterexample to my comments in that the complex ICs -- the RAMs and ROMs -- fail much less often than the TTL. I've repaired more HP calculators than no-name 4-bangers. I've repaired more Leica cameras than Kodak Instamtics. In bother cases that;s not because HPs and Leicas are unrelaible, but rather because HPs and Leicas are worth taking the time to repeir, 4-bangers and Instamatics often are not. > Adding another data point, I will contradict the findings of the two > of you: I've seen more failures of [simple] SSI devices than > [complex] VLSI. > > None of these 3 anecdotes (mine or those of the two of you) are > indicative of the comparitive reliability of these items. Hmm... When I find that I rarely have to rplace a 555 (in somethign commercal or something I've made) but that I do have to repalce VLSI devices quite often, I know which I consider to be the more reliable. Maybe incorrectly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 23 15:26:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:26:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modems; was: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F953866.29144.965D97@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 23, 12 11:09:26 am Message-ID: > Wasn't Motorola the old Codex? The old leased-line modems were > marvels--ISTR that the Milgo version from the late 60s took up about > a 6U rack slot--for a single 2400 bps channel. It had all sorts of Somewhere I have a slightly more recent 22400 baud leasd-line modem. It's only 3U high. I rememebr one of the PCBs contains some bitslice ICs and a parallele multiplier chip. I must investigate it... > P.S. And we can't forget Gandalf modems, either. I rmeemebr -- heck, I still have -- the Gandalf LDS line drivers. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 23 15:27:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F957841.5020604@gmail.com> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120423101257.GA8152@brevard.conman.org> <4F957841.5020604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120423132330.V49096@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > 1) I've had far more faults with modern hardware *that I can't fix* than I > have with older items, "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone." - Bjarne Stroustrup > 2) I've had far more *software* glitches bring modern hardware to its knees > than I have with older kit. > Ultimately it's downtime and inconvenience that matters to me more than > failure rate, I think - and for me the older, simpler approaches win out > there (which isn't to say that it works out that way for everyone). And, therefore, 30 year old computer equipment is far more reliable than CURRENT; it can't run Windoze! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 23 15:28:06 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80D0A5@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80D0A5@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 11:05 AM > >>> What kind of material are you going to make them out of? Will it be >>> archival quality material; something that will last a long time without >>> chipping or outgassing? > >> Rosewood? > > I appreciate the humor, but I'd like to point out that woods in general > are not good archival storage materials. They are seldom pH/pOH neutral, > they outgas, they are subject to fire, mold, insects, etc., and are just > all around Not The Right Thing(TM). > Well that means you need to use asbestos impregnated Teak. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 16:01:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:01:26 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <4F940D41.32013.1347C98@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 22, 12 01:53:05 pm, Message-ID: <4F9560B6.14591.133D4DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2012 at 19:10, Tony Duell wrote: > > At less than USD$1.00 for a PIC, it's hard to rationalize on a faint > > possibility. It works. > > And that sums up what I hate about most modern stuff... > > If you add the '38, OK, you multiply the overall cost by 2 or 3 times. > But you get a deivce that when it gets zapped, can be repaired by > finding a '38 in the junk box,or in the local electroncis shop and > about 5 minutes of soldering. As opposed to having to find a PIC > (which the local electronics shope probably doesn't stcok), then > having to get the ROM image from somewhere, and having to program it. Since it's not for anyone's use by my own, I figure a tube of PICs is about the right amount of backup. I still have new bipolar PROMs and RAM as well as all sorts of chips that I'll never find a use for, at least in the replacement sense, not to mention doodads such as tunnel diodes. If I had to design a replacement, I could even do it with discretes-- assuming that the local shop even knows what a junction transistor is at that point. Assuming, at that point, that I still have my faculties. If not, I won't care anyway. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 16:11:29 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 22:11:29 +0100 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 23 April 2012 07:54, Eric Smith wrote: > There's a major DISADVANTAGE of a lot of solid-state media, including CF > cards and SD cards. ?Because the erase block size inside the card is large, > they have to do blocking and deblocking to that size. ?When you write a > sector, the erase block containing that sector is read into a buffer in the > controller. ?(The controller is part of the memory card, not part of the > computer; the computer has a host adapter.) ?The sector data gets buffered, > but not immediately written to the flash, because you don't want to wear it > out with unnecessary erase cycles. ?When you write more sectors in the > vicinity, they go into the buffer. ?Eventually the block does get erased and > the data rewritten. > > Now suppose that you're running a multitasking OS with n files open for > write. ?If you nave at least n of these buffers in the controller, things > work smoothly. ?If the controller has fewer than n, it has to do the > erase/write cycles more often. ?If n is much smaller than the number of > files you are writing, the performance becomes very bad, and the wear to the > flash goes up substantially. > > For CF and SD cards, the number of buffers in the controller is very small. > ?Some have as few as two; the most I've seen is six. ?These cards are not > meant for replacement of disks that have a lot of parallel activity. ?That's > a serious concern when using them to replace SCSI or IDE drives. ?The > intended usage mode for these cards is with MP3 players, which don't write > much at all, cameras that generally only write one file at a time, and thus > need only two buffers (data and FAT), and for manually transferring files, > which also is usually only done one file at a time. > > At one point I saw a web page where various memory cards were benchmarked, > and the number and size of the controllers' internal buffers were deduced, > but I didn't save a link to it and am too lazy to find it again right now. > > SSDs with an IDE or SATA interface are intended for use as general-purpose > disks, so (some? many? most?) of them don't have this problem, although > there is a lot of variation between vendors. ?Off-brand SSDs, and even some > name-brand ones, have been known to have this and other problems, but the > name-brand vendors generally have gotten their act together. This is fascinating stuff - thanks for that. I have not seen this info anywhere else. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 23 16:14:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > So, yes, its fine now. By the comments of some peopel here, though it > shouldn't be in that reworkign the PCB should ahve reduced the > reliability. Maybe it did, if I'd got one that didn't need reworking, it > wowould go on even longer. But 20 years without problems, turned on and > used just about every day, doesn't seen unrelaible to me. Competent "rework" fixed the other cold solder joints, etc. Haphazard "just get it done" "rework" will only fix the one joint that had stopped making contact, possibly overheat adjacent pins and componenets, add solder bridges, and in removal and reinstallation add physical stresses to other bad joints. So, "modern" incompetent "rework", as practiced by many companies, could indeed reduce reliability. MY experience with Sportster(S) was similar, other than that I did NOT make the needed repairs. OTOH, I did not have any problems with their Courier(S). We got rid of the unreliable Sportsters, and every WinModem that came along. Deities! I hate those things! Does anybody make a good reliable tiny portable USB modem? The USR one that I got on eBay won't work with the supplied drivers nor the ones from the website, but ALMOST works with some generic drivers. In terms of "Customer Service" and "Tech Support", USR was uninterested and unwilling to provide any help with out-of-warranty Sportsters, but provided free firmware update to an old Courier with unknown provenance. Were they really the same company? (It must have been the Sportster "division" that survived to become the one that Will Smith dealt with.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 16:12:19 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 22:12:19 +0100 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> On 23/04/2012 20:14, Tony Duell wrote: >> This is one thing that's quite backwards about our society. "I saw it >> with my own friggin' eyes" is discounted as "not necessarily true or >> reliable". > Well, actually, people's evidence can be very unrliable, either > deliberately or innocently. So, yes, there is no reason why anyone should > believe anythign I say. But equally, I do believe what I observe > (probably incorrectly in some cases), at least until I've got further > relaiable evidence (not just 'I am telling you') to modify it. > > -tony One thing that always puzzles me is that if Oracle Solaris boxes are so reliable why does a years support on one cost so much more (typically 5 to 8 times more) than a years support on an similar spec IBM or HP Intel or AMD box? Dave G4UGM From shumaker at att.net Mon Apr 23 16:24:40 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:24:40 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation Message-ID: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> The 2 HP 2100's from GovLiquidation arrived a few weeks ago in incredible shape (after waiting some 8 weeks for DLA to decide I'm OK to acquire a weapon system component.....) Anyway, for anyone interested. there's another one listed - this time in Oklahoma. The title shows it as an "HP 21005 microprogramming systems computer" but it's clearly the HP 2100s mini in the photos! Event ID is 10728 Item No is 1510 Unit appears in good shape and already has a heavy duty shipping carton. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 16:35:49 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:35:49 -0500 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <32EBCB2A-AB9A-4546-898D-18D0A218968F@gmail.com> References: <09f001cd20cb$69b93dd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94E29D.4090006@neurotica.com> <4F956C6A.6000108@verizon.net> <4F957563.20409@gmail.com> <32EBCB2A-AB9A-4546-898D-18D0A218968F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F95CB35.1040800@gmail.com> On 04/23/2012 10:47 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 23, 2012, at 11:29 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Mind you, I like devices in big heavy square-ish boxes on the desktop >> - small items just fall over easily, or get pulled off the desk by >> their own cables, or still occupy space but with the downside that I >> can't stack other items on top of them. The majority seem to think >> that miniaturization is the holy grail though (and I suppose the >> smaller the case, the less material used, so it appeals to the >> manufacturer too) > > I don't mind miniaturization, as long as it's done intelligently. I > like my Netgear 8-port switch that's on my desktop an awful lot; it's > the size of about two packs of cards, and it has a nice, solid- feeling > metal case. It's also totally square, so I can stack other things on > top of it. The older netgear stuff isn't too bad - I do remember it being boxy (and possibly the cases being metal). Still a bit of the small side for my 'tastes' though; I think I find that if things have to be on the desktop at all, they should have the footprint of a piece of paper, so that I can stack real pieces of paper on top. There's a Netgear router close to to where I'm sitting; rounded edges to the case, vents on the top, and so lightweight that if anyone so much as sneezes near it, it'll fall off the desk under the weight of the cables connected to it. I should probably screw it to the underside of the desk or something, but it's handy being able to get at the ports easily. > The only irritant is that the power inlet from the wall > brick and the ports are on opposite sides, which would be great if it > were a rackmount switch, but not so great for a desktop one. I don't think the Raspberry Pi's been given much of an airing here (http://www.raspberrypi.org) but I've mentioned elsewhere that it's one of the problems I see with that particular gadget: the connectors line all four sides of the PCB, so you either live with a miniature system with wires going off in all directions (ick!), or you put in a larger case with trailing wires to ports on the rear (and/or front) - which of course pushes up the cost of a final 'product' quite a bit. > On the other hand, I remember my 56k modem from the end of the dial- up > era; I think it was a Global Village one? In any case, it was nice and > small, but (as you said) so light that the cables tended to pull it off > the desk, and they made this "cute-looking" little bulge at the top for > the speaker, which meant you couldn't stack anything atop it. > Infuriating. I think I ended up just stashing it under the desk. I still much prefer big old CRTs to modern LCD displays, and it's rare that there's not a stack of stuff parked on the top edge of the case. :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 16:59:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:59:08 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: , <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2012 at 22:11, Liam Proven wrote: > This is fascinating stuff - thanks for that. I have not seen this info > anywhere else. Well, there's a third option--Microdrives. There was (and may still be) a guy on eBay selling 4GB Seagate Microdrives NOS for less than $5 shipped. I use one on my mail server and it's been running for 4+ years 24/7. I used it mostly to keep heat and power down vs. a normal 3.5" IDE drive. No write fatigue, but like any mechanical drive, it will eventually wear out from just sitting there and spinning. But so far, so good. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 17:11:29 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:11:29 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> References: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <61061AC9-E6E3-4C84-9E3B-54FEBF6780C3@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2012, at 5:12 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > One thing that always puzzles me is that if Oracle Solaris boxes are so reliable why does a years support on one cost so much more (typically 5 to 8 times more) than a years support on an similar spec IBM or HP Intel or AMD box? The cynic in me wants to say, "Because the market will bear it." - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 23 17:18:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:18:16 -0700 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9572B8.13132.17A4893@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2012 at 14:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > Were they really the same company? (It must have been the Sportster > "division" that survived to become the one that Will Smith dealt > with.) When the V.Everything came out, I received word of it and that USR was offering an upgrade program. I had a V.34 Courier, so I called them and they charged my credit card for something like a $50 upgrade fee. When I asked them if they wanted me to return the V.34, they said, no--you keep it. On the HST upgrades, they'd ship a new PROM and SRAM and make sure that you sent the old ones back. If you didn't, they'd pester you to do so. I never did figure out what use they had for old used components. On the V.34 upgrades, you got to keep the old SRAM chip. Nice people, but a strange company. Anyone here remember the early USR (ca. 1977-79?) It was at a Wescon, NCC or some other trade show that I think I remember them showing an all-in-one computer (keyboard, display, disk drives and printer in a large black case). If it wasn't USR, it was some outfit with "Robotics" as part of their name. Can anyone help out with a fading memory? --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 17:25:37 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:25:37 +0100 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <61061AC9-E6E3-4C84-9E3B-54FEBF6780C3@gmail.com> References: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> <61061AC9-E6E3-4C84-9E3B-54FEBF6780C3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F95D6E1.3060509@gmail.com> On 23/04/2012 23:11, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 23, 2012, at 5:12 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> One thing that always puzzles me is that if Oracle Solaris boxes are so reliable why does a years support on one cost so much more (typically 5 to 8 times more) than a years support on an similar spec IBM or HP Intel or AMD box? > The cynic in me wants to say, "Because the market will bear it." > Perhaps more cynical is that they want you to think that if its that expensive it must be good? I seem to remember a few years ago they came and replaced every thing. Recently I have had a duff PSU just sent by courier... > - Dave > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 17:45:37 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:45:37 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F95D6E1.3060509@gmail.com> References: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> <61061AC9-E6E3-4C84-9E3B-54FEBF6780C3@gmail.com> <4F95D6E1.3060509@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 23, 2012, at 6:25 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > On 23/04/2012 23:11, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 23, 2012, at 5:12 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> >>> One thing that always puzzles me is that if Oracle Solaris boxes are so reliable why does a years support on one cost so much more (typically 5 to 8 times more) than a years support on an similar spec IBM or HP Intel or AMD box? >> The cynic in me wants to say, "Because the market will bear it." >> > Perhaps more cynical is that they want you to think that if its that expensive it must be good? I don't think that differs fundamentally from "the market will bear it". Here we come back to P.T. Barnum and his d(suckers)/dT = 1/min equation. I mean, there are reasons for all manner of pricing on support contracts, but they generally come down to "what will people pay for this?" and "how can we amortize our development and support costs?". - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 23 17:47:10 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204232247.SAA15934@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I guess what really saddnes me is that you can't buy a PC built like > an HP9830 (metaphorically) at any price. [...] You can't? Or you can't do so easily and conveniently? [earlier in the same mail] > On the otehr hand [the HP9830] cost rater hmnore than a family car at > the time. I once saw a machine that, as far as I could tell, was architecturally a peecee, but mechanically it was amazing. Honestly, it looked designed for remote telemetry or some such, the sort of environment where any kind of service call, instead of involving a truck roll and half a day's time for a tech, involves chartering a small airplane and at least two person-weeks of time. Heck, if you have "rather more than [the price of] a family car" to spend on it, you might even just spin up a small company and design and build what you want. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Apr 23 18:38:14 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 01:38:14 +0200 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F94E46C.50106@neurotica.com> References: <6B47AB53-8D57-4A8D-B52C-7FA1D0FA3B5A@shiresoft.com> <4F94E46C.50106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120423233813.GA16139@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 01:11:08AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/22/2012 06:57 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> How coome 2 of use here (at least) seem to have contradictory findings? > > > > Because it's anecdotal. BTW here's the definition: > > (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on > > personal accounts rather than facts or research > > This is one thing that's quite backwards about our society. "I saw it > with my own friggin' eyes" is discounted as "not necessarily true or > reliable". > > That is just plain fucked up. Unfortunately, it is not. IIRC there have been several studies into the quality of various types of evidence. Turns out that "eyewitness accounts" are among the most unreliable type of evidence around, complicated by the fact that the margin of error for it is at best very hard to quantify outside of a lab setup. Even when people are _not_ attempting to lie, evade, shade the truth etc and are in fact doing their level best to give correct accounts it isn't worth much. And this is pretty much down to the fact that the human nervous system and brain have _not_ evolved as a high grade recording system: - data aquisition is incredibly lossy - the brain tends to filter out all the "unimportant" stuff very early on, static signals will fade into the background, the signals preprocessing done in our sensory organs and lower parts of the brain have evolved to normally work basically as high pass filters: fast changes (like a tiger jumping at you from the underbrush) get noticed and processed at priority, very slow changes (like someone _very_ slowly sneaking up on you) are normally not noticed (yes, with training and continious attention one can notice things like that, but it imposes a high cognitive load) - data processing is optimized for pattern recognition and will in fact detect patterns where there are none (Rorschach test, UFO sighting, "ghosts" howling in a drafty attic, ...), it also favours "well known" patterns, i.e. is prone to get into a rut even if it doesn't really fit - data processing ruthlessy discards any information that is currently not deemed important (parade a few pretty girls in bikinis in front of 20something boys and they won't notice anything else) - memory storage is done in stages and and each stage has a pretty aggressive garbage collector running (standard test: say, for the last 5 years you always drive the some route to work - if someone inserts low grade (not immediately attenting grabbing) events into that route, would you be able to recall them 3 years later? I bet you won't - stress does horrible things to perception and memory retention - the brain is very, very fond of delegating routine tasks to "lower level automated processing": on that above commute, after five years, you won't be paying careful attention to the route you drive, but mostly do it on "autopilot" and unless something really extraordinary happens (you wait at a traffic light and it suddenly rains red roses), you will remember almost nothing at all of that commute a few days later - but you've done it so often, your brain will happily synthesize the memory from of bits and pieces of previous times you drove the route - also: false memories - with the right recall stimuli, you'll swear up and down that something happened in a specific way for a specific event when in fact it didn't happen quite that way Yes, the limits of the human data aquisition, processing and storage system _can_ be overcome to a significant degree, but it requires training, dedication and constant attention - which implies a significant cognitive load. Example: drive about 30-50 miles at night in fall. Assume that on random stretches of the road, frogs will be crossing the road in large numbers. Your task is to flatten as few frogs as possible, ideally none. And yes, there are plenty of almost-looks-like-a-frog-from-50m-distance-in-headlights leaves on the road. Then a few days later, do a similiar drive but this time your task is only to arrive safely. Compare how fatigued you are each time. The human brain aggressively uses data pruning and routine task automation because otherwise the cognitive load would be utterly exhausting. The human brain is also very, very vulnerable to biasing of any kind. The research into the human brain can be utterly fascinating and at the same time be very depressing. To use the title of a talk at the OSCON 2011 conference: "All your brains suck." Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Apr 23 18:40:32 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 01:40:32 +0200 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> References: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120423234032.GB16139@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 10:12:19PM +0100, Dave Wade wrote: > On 23/04/2012 20:14, Tony Duell wrote: > >> This is one thing that's quite backwards about our society. "I saw it > >>with my own friggin' eyes" is discounted as "not necessarily true or > >>reliable". > >Well, actually, people's evidence can be very unrliable, either > >deliberately or innocently. So, yes, there is no reason why anyone should > >believe anythign I say. But equally, I do believe what I observe > >(probably incorrectly in some cases), at least until I've got further > >relaiable evidence (not just 'I am telling you') to modify it. > > > >-tony > One thing that always puzzles me is that if Oracle Solaris boxes are > so reliable why does a years support on one cost so much more > (typically 5 to 8 times more) than a years support on an similar > spec IBM or HP Intel or AMD box? Two effects at work: - they're gonna charge as much as the market will bear and not a cent less - the "it is expensive, it must be good" fallacy Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 19:01:56 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:01:56 -0500 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 4:24 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > The 2 HP 2100's from GovLiquidation arrived a few weeks ago in incredible > shape ?(after waiting some 8 weeks for DLA to decide I'm OK to acquire a > weapon system component.....) ? ?Anyway, for anyone interested. there's I take it from the word "arrived" that GovLiq does shipping? I thought at one time they were local pick-up only. How has your experience been with them? I have watched items there now and then but have never made an account to bid. -- jht From shumaker at att.net Mon Apr 23 19:27:51 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 17:27:51 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> Message-ID: <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> As far as I'm aware, Gov Liquidation never does shipping.. There are links on the G/L website for shippers that are "associated". Clicking the primary shipping link on the G/L site takes you to a list of shippers organized by locations. Those links take you to an individual commercial shipper web site that is more or less familiar with the G/L auction process. Bidders are free to select any shipper willing to go do pack and ship on a gov't installation. The biggies that have been discussed here in various threads are Craters and Freighters and FastTrack Logistics. Both seem to use local shippers as on site reps except for the larger sites. I've used both with "reasonable" success - again, there's been discussions of those and others here and YMMV! The comment about the wait involved a requirement that I'd not dealt with before - namely that of an EUC or End User Certificate. DLA does a background check to validate that you are a US citizen when the item in question is prohibited from sale to a foreign national (Demil Q). That process took 8 wks. Once completed, G/L releases the item to the shipper. FastTrack shipped it from OH to CA in 10 days. steve On 4/23/2012 5:01 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 4:24 PM, steve shumaker wrote > >> The 2 HP 2100's from GovLiquidation arrived a few weeks ago in incredible >> shape (after waiting some 8 weeks for DLA to decide I'm OK to acquire a >> weapon system component.....) Anyway, for anyone interested. there's >> > I take it from the word "arrived" that GovLiq does shipping? I > thought at one time they were local pick-up only. > > How has your experience been with them? I have watched items there > now and then but have never made an account to bid. > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 23 19:28:38 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:28:38 -0600 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > I take it from the word "arrived" that GovLiq does shipping? I > thought at one time they were local pick-up only. govliquidation does not offer shipping directly, but will put you in touch with service bureas at their location(s) that will pick up and ship for you. > How has your experience been with them? I have watched items there > now and then but have never made an account to bid. I have purchased several items from them and been satisfied, but as always, it pays to read the fine print in the sales agreement. They reserve the right to demand that you return stuff you purchased from them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 19:40:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 20:40:59 -0400 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> Message-ID: <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2012, at 8:27 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > The comment about the wait involved a requirement that I'd not dealt with before - namely that of an EUC or End User Certificate. DLA does a background check to validate that you are a US citizen when the item in question is prohibited from sale to a foreign national (Demil Q). That process took 8 wks. Once completed, G/L releases the item to the shipper. FastTrack shipped it from OH to CA in 10 days. There was some scary language in their EULA about "Demil B and Q" items having a requirement to be "mutilated beyond reasonable hope of recovery", which was a horrifying phrase (worse, they wanted to be there and watch while you did it, the sick bastards). Is that only for items designated for scrap? - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 23 20:26:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> References: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204240126.VAA18194@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > One thing that always puzzles me is that if Oracle Solaris boxes are > so reliable why does a years support on one cost so much more > (typically 5 to 8 times more) than a years support on an similar spec > IBM or HP Intel or AMD box? Others have mentioned two probable parts of this ("because it can" and "if it's expensive it must be valuable"). I offer for consideration another possible part: the level of support is different. While I am not familiar with modern support contracts of either sort, I speculate that the Oracle support contract specifies much tighter constraints on the supporter's performance (response time, time to repair, etc), higher penalties if they aren't met, and a wider net for what it covers. (As compared to the other contract, of course.) I do know that, back when I did know a little bit about support contracts, that such things had a a substantial effect on the price of the contract. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From shumaker at att.net Mon Apr 23 21:25:27 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:25:27 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> On 4/23/2012 5:40 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 23, 2012, at 8:27 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > >> The comment about the wait involved a requirement that I'd not dealt with before - namely that of an EUC or End User Certificate. DLA does a background check to validate that you are a US citizen when the item in question is prohibited from sale to a foreign national (Demil Q). That process took 8 wks. Once completed, G/L releases the item to the shipper. FastTrack shipped it from OH to CA in 10 days. >> > There was some scary language in their EULA about "Demil B and Q" > items having a requirement to be "mutilated beyond reasonable hope of > recovery", which was a horrifying phrase (worse, they wanted to be > there and watch while you did it, the sick bastards). Is that only > for items designated for scrap? > > > - Dave > > > > Apparently so.. ISTR something like that in the past - certainly this was the first time I've actually bid on a Q item. So it would seem that they are now offering stuff without the destruction rqmt. This latest auction seems to be all Demil Q stuff. The really strange thing about all this excursion into govt surplus is the stuff they apparently still carry as critical weapons technology... an HP 2100 minicomp? that's like the recent discussion about the missile guidance computers... our govmnt at work! steve From js at cimmeri.com Mon Apr 23 21:47:23 2012 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:47:23 -0500 Subject: Looking for: Venix books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F96143B.7050806@cimmeri.com> Does anyone have any Venix manuals they're no longer needing that they'd like to sell? I'm running Venix 1.0 on a DEC Pro 350. The manuals for this version would be dated 1984 - 1986. Please PM me. Thanks, John Singleton From bub7734 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 23 22:15:03 2012 From: bub7734 at yahoo.com (Scott G Taylor) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 20:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for: Venix books Message-ID: <1335237303.84537.YahooMailNeo@web111405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> js at cimmeri.com wrote on Mon Apr 23 21:47:23 CDT 2012: > Does anyone have any Venix manuals they're no longer needing that they'd > like to sell? > > I'm running Venix 1.0 on a DEC Pro 350.? The manuals for this version > would be dated 1984 - 1986. I haven't the Venix 1.0 or Pro version manuals. What I do have are the Venix/11 2.0 manual set as well as the base (root) distribution on 9-track tape.?? Unfortunately, the second distribution tape with the /usr filesystem has gone missing. Does anyone else on the planet have the Venix/11 2.0 tapes? Please let me know if you do. Cheers, -scott From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 22:29:53 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:29:53 -0400 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> Message-ID: <9F86AE31-07C9-4167-9DEE-BFDFE6F3DE86@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2012, at 10:25 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > The really strange thing about all this excursion into govt surplus is the stuff they apparently still carry as critical weapons technology... an HP 2100 minicomp? that's like the recent discussion about the missile guidance computers... our govmnt at work! I think it's a very literal implementation of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. For all the money and power it may be wasting running our weapons on ancient machines, just think of all the money and manpower they waste when they try to *update* these systems (look at the sad state of the attempts to update our air traffic control system if you want an example). - Dave From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 23:03:09 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:03:09 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <9F86AE31-07C9-4167-9DEE-BFDFE6F3DE86@gmail.com> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> <9F86AE31-07C9-4167-9DEE-BFDFE6F3DE86@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9625FD.3040300@gmail.com> After looking at the picture in the auction could that be a never used 2100 in the original box ? That must be a pretty rare beast if so. Museum piece for sure. It looks brand new and the military doesn't tend to keep boxes around for stuff once it is out of them. http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=5180299&convertTo=USD On 4/23/2012 8:29 PM, David Riley wrote: > I think it's a very literal implementation of the "If it ain't broke, > don't fix it" mentality. For all the money and power it may be wasting > running our weapons on ancient machines, just think of all the money > and manpower they waste when they try to *update* these systems (look > at the sad state of the attempts to update our air traffic control > system if you want an example). - Dave From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 23 23:35:54 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:35:54 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> Message-ID: On 23 Apr 2012, at 7:25 PM, steve shumaker wrote: [snip] > > The really strange thing about all this excursion into govt surplus is the stuff they apparently still carry as critical weapons technology... an HP 2100 minicomp? that's like the recent discussion about the missile guidance computers... our govmnt at work! Actually, it's probably not critical weapons technology as in "it is part of a weapons system"'; a large number of 2100 series machines wound up in inspection, test and repair systems that were used to *support* weapons systems. A lot of these things are staring to spill out onto the surplus market because they're being replaced by software emulators backed up by hardware that allows existing custom hardware to be used with the PC-based emulator. I've personally seen hardware that supports HP cards, DG Nova bus cards and ones that implement ROLM's version of the Nova bus in remanufactured ground support and test equipment. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 23 23:39:44 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:39:44 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F9625FD.3040300@gmail.com> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> <9F86AE31-07C9-4167-9DEE-BFDFE6F3DE86@gmail.com> <4F9625FD.3040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 23 Apr 2012, at 9:03 PM, mc68010 wrote: > After looking at the picture in the auction could that be a never used 2100 in the original box ? That must be a pretty rare beast if so. Museum piece for sure. It looks brand new and the military doesn't tend to keep boxes around for stuff once it is out of them. There's military and there's military. Stuff that was destined for something like the NSWL that just ended up in inventory would likely still be in its box. I find it mildly amusing that a 2100S microprogrammable machine is being describes as a "21005 microprogramming system" -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 23 23:50:40 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:50:40 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <9F86AE31-07C9-4167-9DEE-BFDFE6F3DE86@gmail.com> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> <9F86AE31-07C9-4167-9DEE-BFDFE6F3DE86@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03009F6E-3655-43D7-8418-A70D2DEDF3DE@mainecoon.com> On 23 Apr 2012, at 8:29 PM, David Riley wrote: > I think it's a very literal implementation of the "If it ain't > broke, don't fix it" mentality. For all the money and power it > may be wasting running our weapons on ancient machines, just > think of all the money and manpower they waste when they try to > *update* these systems (look at the sad state of the attempts to > update our air traffic control system if you want an example). The ATC upgrade is a very good example; the earlier attempts were fairly successful thanks to emulation of the old hardware (first 3083 BX1 machines replaced in turn by 9672 RA4 machines both of which ran the original 9020/System 360 assembly code in emulation mode); it wasn't until they actually started trying to deploy something entirely new that it turned into a huge money pit. That lesson is a large part of why the GSE remanufacturing sector prefers to replace obsolete computing platforms with emulators and hardware support for systems-specific interface cards; they can use the same software and, if the gods smile upon them, the same interface hardware while dispensing with the unsupported computer in the middle of it all. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 23:58:18 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:58:18 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> <9F86AE31-07C9-4167-9DEE-BFDFE6F3DE86@gmail.com> <4F9625FD.3040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9632EA.9090606@gmail.com> Even in that bad picture it looks like it's brand new. Even labs don't often put things back in boxes in my experience. It would have been a new spare in inventory even if it was taken out a couple times to inspect. Still pretty amazing after all these years. Bet there is all sorts of similar stuff sitting in dark government storerooms and warehouses. On 4/23/2012 9:39 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: > There's military and there's military. Stuff that was destined for > something like the NSWL that just ended up in inventory would likely > still be in its box. From tingox at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 06:37:47 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:37:47 +0200 Subject: Amiga IDE Non-autoboot interface In-Reply-To: <087d01cd209f$fae0ae50$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <087d01cd209f$fae0ae50$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > ? Any tips of an easy to build non-autoboot interface for the A2000? > ? I'm tired of using diskettes on my A2000 :( Perhaps you can use one of these: http://aminet.net/docs/hard/hddmem.readme http://de3.aminet.net/docs/hard/hddmem_exp_a50.readme or this: http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/ide68k.html HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From jlobocki at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 16:59:45 2012 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:59:45 -0500 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:32 PM -0400 4/22/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 04/22/2012 03:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> Compact-Flash seems to have almost disappeared. >>> >> >> Huh? Not at all. It is the mainstay of pro-level digital camera >> work. It has just disappeared from consumer-shit-grade stuff because it >> >> is "huge". Heh. (still aching from moving an RK07 last night, and >> that's on the "light" side of my stuff!) >> >> -Dave >> > > To the best of my knowledge the only Pro-level digital camera that doesn't > use Compact-Flash is the Leica M9 (trust me, there is no room in there). > What sucks is that Costco no longer carries it in the stores (at least not > my local ones). > > The new Nikon D4 has two slots, one for the older Compact-Flash cards, and > one for the new XQD cards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**XQD_card > I use a SD to CF adapter in my canon digital rebel without an issue, as I can no longer find CF (I also haven't tried a camera store but they are probably a ripoff...) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 01:48:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 02:48:32 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120422121724.U12168@shell.lmi.net> <4F945CD6.40500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F964CC0.4030303@neurotica.com> On 04/23/2012 05:59 PM, joe lobocki wrote: > I use a SD to CF adapter in my canon digital rebel without an issue, as I > can no longer find CF (I also haven't tried a camera store but they are > probably a ripoff...) Where do you live that you cannot find CF cards?! That's insane. I bought a handful a couple of weeks ago, and the guy I'm crashing with here in FL this week has three brand new ones sitting on his kitchen table. WTF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 24 02:23:37 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:23:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> The Dreamcast uses the SD card connected directly to the serial >>> port, it would take some circuitry to connect a CF into that port. >> [...???...] > There is a way to connect an SDCard into the serial port and load > games from that. Look for dreamshell and your life will be enlighted > :) It's not clear from what I've been able to find that the adapters between the serial port and SD cards are passive (as opposed to having active circuitry in them); I haven't found any description of what's in them beyond "it Just Works with this software". Do you have reason to think the adapter is a passive device? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 02:28:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 03:28:58 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F96563A.2040607@neurotica.com> On 04/23/2012 02:58 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [RK07] > >> Eh, it's on wheels. The only problems come when one has to go up a >> step or two. In my case, this time, I had to jockey it around to be >> removed from a garage, which will happen tomorrow. > > Ah, mine had been taken off the stand (I did get the stand too, it;s now > back on it). And, yes, there were steps, tight corners, etc to negotiate. Oh, eew. :-( > It was a lot less hassle ot take it to bits (it took only a few minutes) > than to have to manhandle it. And I learnt how the drive went together > which was a help later on. I did a lot of work on my first one around 1986 or so. The guy I bought it from (who was also a mentor of mine) was kind enough to give me docs and printsets for it (which I still have of course) and I was able to learn a lot about it and do a lot of maintenance without help. I'd not trade that experience for anything! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 02:40:12 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 08:40:12 +0100 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204240126.VAA18194@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F95C5B3.3040308@gmail.com> <201204240126.VAA18194@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F9658DC.2060007@gmail.com> On 24/04/2012 02:26, Mouse wrote: >> One thing that always puzzles me is that if Oracle Solaris boxes are >> so reliable why does a years support on one cost so much more >> (typically 5 to 8 times more) than a years support on an similar spec >> IBM or HP Intel or AMD box? > Others have mentioned two probable parts of this ("because it can" and > "if it's expensive it must be valuable"). > > I offer for consideration another possible part: the level of support > is different. While I am not familiar with modern support contracts of > either sort, I speculate that the Oracle support contract specifies > much tighter constraints on the supporter's performance (response time, > time to repair, etc), higher penalties if they aren't met, and a wider > net for what it covers. (As compared to the other contract, of > course.) I do know that, back when I did know a little bit about > support contracts, that such things had a a substantial effect on the > price of the contract. Well at least in the UK IBM appears to provide its own support perhaps that's a contributing factor... > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 03:51:02 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:51:02 +0200 Subject: Amiga IDE Non-autoboot interface In-Reply-To: References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <087d01cd209f$fae0ae50$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: ide68k and similar boards pop up with fair regularity on www.amibay.com, either populated or blank boards. Look for posts by mkl and tomthul IIRC. Joe. On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 13:37, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: >> >> ? Any tips of an easy to build non-autoboot interface for the A2000? >> ? I'm tired of using diskettes on my A2000 :( > > Perhaps you can use one of these: > http://aminet.net/docs/hard/hddmem.readme > http://de3.aminet.net/docs/hard/hddmem_exp_a50.readme > > or this: > http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/ide68k.html > HTH > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen > -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 06:44:31 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 07:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advantages of solid state media. In-Reply-To: <4F94899D.1010205@mail.msu.edu> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94899D.1010205@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Apr 2012, Josh Dersch wrote: > One other caveat -- if you're using CF cards, make sure your they support the > CF interface, and not just IDE; I have 3 Hitachi 4GB microdrives (tiny hard > drives in a CF form-factor) and it turns out this particular model only has > an IDE interface. The CF slot in these devices don't support the IDE > interface and so they will not be recognized (which is a bummer...) I believe OEM drives for iPod and other appliances had the CF interface disabled. Most of the Hitachi units on eBay appear to be of that type. -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 07:55:28 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 09:55:28 -0300 Subject: Amiga IDE Non-autoboot interface References: <4F93C1BF.23117.D88D8@cclist.sydex.com> <087d01cd209f$fae0ae50$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <0a9f01cd2219$91575940$6600a8c0@tababook> The problem is to buy internationally. Brazil is passing thru a moment that mostly everything that comes by mail is taxed And I can build a board at home :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Thiemann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:51 AM Subject: Re: Amiga IDE Non-autoboot interface > ide68k and similar boards pop up with fair regularity on > www.amibay.com, either populated or blank boards. Look for posts by > mkl and tomthul IIRC. > > Joe. > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 13:37, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: >> On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas >> wrote: >>> >>> Any tips of an easy to build non-autoboot interface for the A2000? >>> I'm tired of using diskettes on my A2000 :( >> >> Perhaps you can use one of these: >> http://aminet.net/docs/hard/hddmem.readme >> http://de3.aminet.net/docs/hard/hddmem_exp_a50.readme >> >> or this: >> http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/ide68k.html >> HTH >> -- >> Regards, >> Torfinn Ingolfsen >> > > > > -- > Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 08:11:30 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:11:30 -0300 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> > It's not clear from what I've been able to find that the adapters > between the serial port and SD cards are passive (as opposed to having > active circuitry in them); I haven't found any description of what's in > them beyond "it Just Works with this software". Do you have reason to > think the adapter is a passive device? Yep, I have. I built one. http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2012/03/sega-pride-and-joy-o-saudade-e-uma.html This is the schematic I used: http://www.dc-swat.ru/blog/hardware/14.html As you see, just wires... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 08:20:54 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 08:20:54 -0500 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <5B44E473-1405-49A1-83B6-027507B61E27@gmail.com> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> <201204230907.FAA02643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> <201204231954.PAA13280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5B44E473-1405-49A1-83B6-027507B61E27@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F96A8B6.9000709@gmail.com> On 04/23/2012 03:03 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 23, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> [...] slippers [...] >>> (Not sure how well slippers translates into West Pondian but >>> lightweight house shoes...) >> >> That's roughly what my (North American) eye read it as; I think that, >> at least in that usage, it's one of those words that doesn't need >> translation when it crosses the Atlantic. > > Yeah, we call them "slippers" here too in the Colonies. A lot of > clothing slang makes it across fairly intact, with the notable > exception of "pants" (which is what we call our trousers, much to > the confusion of our British friends). It took me a while to get used to referring to sneakers rather than trainers. Hearing people talking about guys wearing suspenders ('braces' in UK English) takes much longer to adjust to :-) I can't really think of any other examples - 'bath robe' vs. 'dressing gown', I suppose - but you're right, there's a very high degree of commonality. I found that US English is quite regionalized too, so even if a different term (to UK English) exists in one part, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's different across the whole country (the same is true of pronunciation). cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 09:00:51 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 09:00:51 -0500 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com>, <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> On 04/23/2012 04:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Apr 2012 at 22:11, Liam Proven wrote: > >> This is fascinating stuff - thanks for that. I have not seen this info >> anywhere else. > > Well, there's a third option--Microdrives. ~90KB of storage and prone to tape stretch? ;-) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 24 09:38:59 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <201204241438.KAA28986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> It's not clear from what I've been able to find that the adapters >> between the serial port and SD cards are passive [...]. Do you have >> reason to think the adapter is a passive device? > Yep, I have. I built one. Sounds like a pretty convincing reason. :) > This is the schematic I used: > http://www.dc-swat.ru/blog/hardware/14.html Ah! Excellent. Thank you very much; I think that page answers my remaining questions here. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sander.reiche at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 09:40:41 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:40:41 +0200 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> References: <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com> <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <76D78D49-891B-4A36-B0F6-ED685B94AF6B@gmail.com> On 24 apr. 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/23/2012 04:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 23 Apr 2012 at 22:11, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> This is fascinating stuff - thanks for that. I have not seen this info >>> anywhere else. >> >> Well, there's a third option--Microdrives. > > ~90KB of storage and prone to tape stretch? ;-) > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive) > Loved those things back then. From a distance though, considering the prices they went for when they were hot :) re, Sander From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 09:47:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 07:47:39 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> References: , <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F965A9B.521.A97BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2012 at 9:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > ~90KB of storage and prone to tape stretch? ;-) > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive) Now you're being silly. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 09:55:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:55:59 -0400 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:11 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> It's not clear from what I've been able to find that the adapters >> between the serial port and SD cards are passive (as opposed to having >> active circuitry in them); I haven't found any description of what's in >> them beyond "it Just Works with this software". Do you have reason to >> think the adapter is a passive device? > > This is the schematic I used: > http://www.dc-swat.ru/blog/hardware/14.html > > As you see, just wires... How does it use CTS as the clock line? Can that be repurposed as an output in the Dreamcast hardware? Perhaps it's answered in the Russian, but my Russian is limited to a three-year-old's vocabulary. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 09:58:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 07:58:59 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> References: , <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F965D43.22933.14F962@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2012 at 9:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > ~90KB of storage and prone to tape stretch? ;-) > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive) Reminds me of the Datasonix Pereos that attempted to get 1GB on a Sony NT microcassette. I wonder if any backups have survived? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NT_%28cassette%29 http://homepage3.nifty.com/kenk/imx/ndc-04.jpg --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 24 10:27:57 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 08:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tape stretch marks was Re: Disadvantages of solid state media was Re: Advantages In-Reply-To: <4F965D43.22933.14F962@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 24, 12 07:58:59 am" Message-ID: <201204241527.q3OFRva614876756@floodgap.com> > > ~90KB of storage and prone to tape stretch? ;-) > > > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive) > > Reminds me of the Datasonix Pereos that attempted to get 1GB on a > Sony NT microcassette. I wonder if any backups have survived? I have Jim Battle's CC-40 and Wafertape drive. I need to see if that works still. I know reliability was a serious issue, which was why the wafertape never got beyond a prototype (unfortunate as this left the CC-40 with no good storage options and it was a wonderful little system). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 10:28:39 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 12:28:39 -0300 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <0dec01cd222f$017514f0$6600a8c0@tababook> > How does it use CTS as the clock line? Can that be repurposed as > an output in the Dreamcast hardware? Perhaps it's answered in the > Russian, but my Russian is limited to a three-year-old's vocabulary. AFAIK, this serial port is bitbanged...but I don't have that much info. If you wish, I have the schematics of the mainboard :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 10:30:08 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 12:30:08 -0300 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) References: , <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> <4F965D43.22933.14F962@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0e0601cd222f$300147d0$6600a8c0@tababook> > Reminds me of the Datasonix Pereos that attempted to get 1GB on a > Sony NT microcassette. I wonder if any backups have survived? > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NT_%28cassette%29 > http://homepage3.nifty.com/kenk/imx/ndc-04.jpg W O W!!! This is something I never heard of :oO From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 24 10:32:07 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 08:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: On a minorly related note... http://www.simpits.org/~geneb/hayes.jpg The static bags contain both versions of the S-100 DC Hayes 103 modem as well as an Apple MicroCom ][. I've been told there's one more non-modem gadget that I don't have, but I can't recall what it is. (that was sold by Hayes in the Stack enclosure) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 10:50:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:50:30 -0400 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <0dec01cd222f$017514f0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> <0dec01cd222f$017514f0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2012, at 11:28 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> How does it use CTS as the clock line? Can that be repurposed as >> an output in the Dreamcast hardware? Perhaps it's answered in the >> Russian, but my Russian is limited to a three-year-old's vocabulary. > > AFAIK, this serial port is bitbanged...but I don't have that much info. If you wish, I have the schematics of the mainboard :) It is indeed (it's using a similar technique to a lot of cheap serial port PIC programmers), but my question is more because CTS is usually fixed as an input on serial ports. It looks like it's driving the CLK line on the SD card here, which I find puzzling. I wouldn't mind taking a gander at the Dreamcast schematics, though. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 11:01:25 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 12:01:25 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On a minorly related note... > > http://www.simpits.org/~geneb/hayes.jpg Ooh... a Chronograph. Very nice. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 11:02:10 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:02:10 -0300 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability References: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0e6a01cd2233$b7f07cc0$6600a8c0@tababook> Hmmm...you remembered me I was crazy to find an old hayes or hayes-like modem to build a hayes stack chronograph...But now I got a surprise, it is WAY BIGGER than the other devices. I had never seen one besides its "family". Nice stack, eh? :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Arduino vs 555 reliability > On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On a minorly related note... > > http://www.simpits.org/~geneb/hayes.jpg > > The static bags contain both versions of the S-100 DC Hayes 103 modem as > well as an Apple MicroCom ][. > > I've been told there's one more non-modem gadget that I don't have, but I > can't recall what it is. (that was sold by Hayes in the Stack enclosure) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 24 11:03:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 12:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <0dec01cd222f$017514f0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> <0dec01cd222f$017514f0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <201204241603.MAA00437@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> How does it use CTS as the clock line? Can that be repurposed as an >> output in the Dreamcast hardware? I was wondering about that myself. > AFAIK, this serial port is bitbanged...but I don't have that much > info. If you wish, I have the schematics of the mainboard :) The serial port isn't _necessarily_ bitbanged, but I think there's a bit you can set in one of the control registers that makes it so. (Otherwise, it's a relatively nice UARTish interface.) However, that's orthogonal to making CTS into an output. I don't recall any such setting in the SH's serial interface registers; perhaps it's DC-specific circuitry between the SH's pin and the serial port connector? Or perhaps the card drives the clock? I've fetched copies of the SD spec (which isn't where the page specified said it is - it seems to be at https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/pls/simplified_specs/) and hope to find the time soon to read them over. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 11:36:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 12:36:22 -0400 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <201204241603.MAA00437@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> <0dec01cd222f$017514f0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204241603.MAA00437@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> How does it use CTS as the clock line? Can that be repurposed as an >>> output in the Dreamcast hardware? > > I was wondering about that myself. > >> AFAIK, this serial port is bitbanged...but I don't have that much >> info. If you wish, I have the schematics of the mainboard :) > > The serial port isn't _necessarily_ bitbanged, but I think there's a > bit you can set in one of the control registers that makes it so. > (Otherwise, it's a relatively nice UARTish interface.) > > However, that's orthogonal to making CTS into an output. I don't > recall any such setting in the SH's serial interface registers; perhaps > it's DC-specific circuitry between the SH's pin and the serial port > connector? Or perhaps the card drives the clock? I've fetched copies > of the SD spec (which isn't where the page specified said it is - it > seems to be at https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/pls/simplified_specs/) > and hope to find the time soon to read them over. The short answer is that the easy way to interface with SD/MMC cards is as an SPI device. This schematic uses Tx as MOSI, Rx as MISO, RTS as #CS and CTS as SCK. The card most certainly doesn't drive the clock; it behaves as an SPI slave. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 11:39:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 09:39:22 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <0e0601cd222f$300147d0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: , <0e0601cd222f$300147d0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F9674CA.3392.70E0BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2012 at 12:30, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Reminds me of the Datasonix Pereos that attempted to get 1GB on a > > Sony NT microcassette. I wonder if any backups have survived? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NT_%28cassette%29 > > http://homepage3.nifty.com/kenk/imx/ndc-04.jpg > > W O W!!! This is something I never heard of :oO It was intended mostly for laptop users--a 2mm helical-scan tape. I received one of the early evaluation unit. Datasonix made the claim that the thin 2mm tape width was no problem, that they could compensate for stretch. The only way you could get more blank media was to place a phone order to Datasonix, who would then send you a Fedex envelope with two cartridges in it--i.e. no retailer carried the media. Whether it was specially formatted for the Pereos, I don't know. The software was very large for a simple backup. The DOS driver had over a 100KB RAM footprint and the user interface was larger. Datasonix would divulge no details of the hardware interface at all; it was apparently proprietary with nothing like a plain ASPI interface. We were unable to obtain more than one unit to determine interoperability between units. I couldn't get reliable performance--you'd take forever to write a tape and then you couldn't read it back. Worse, the Datasonix government sales rep lied to one of the GSA people and based a sale on the assurance that we approved of the drives, which we didn't--as a matter of fact, we were pretty explicit in our refusal. I think it was only about 50 units, but our customer wasn't happy when he found out that we had no intention of supporting that little unit. Don't get me wrong--the concept was interesting--a unit not much larger than a pack of cigarettes that ran on a couple of AA batteries and could hold a gig on a cartridge the size of a postage stamp. It was the implementation that doomed the thing. There were some retail sales after bankruptcy of Datasonix in 1996, mostly through a mail-order clearance place. By 2000, the unit was pretty much forgotten. http://web.archive.org/web/20010331195911/http://datasonix.com/Default .htm (Wayback link to the clearance place) --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 24 11:59:11 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 09:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> On a minorly related note... >> >> http://www.simpits.org/~geneb/hayes.jpg > > Ooh... a Chronograph. Very nice. > Yep. There's another variant of it that I want. The one I have has only a single serial port on it. The original had two, one passed through so you could connect a SmartModem to it as well. g -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 11:08:42 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:08:42 -0300 Subject: Advantages of solid state media. Was:one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204221533.LAA08986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <08d701cd20a0$dd8d65e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <201204240723.DAA22914@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <0b0901cd221b$cf25ba30$6600a8c0@tababook> <0dec01cd222f$017514f0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <003a01cd223c$657ceb00$6600a8c0@tababook> > I wouldn't mind taking a gander at the Dreamcast schematics, though. Here you have :o) http://www.4shared.com/dir/13490883/b476a0ff/DREAMCAST_VA0.html From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 12:20:21 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:20:21 -0300 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability References: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00e401cd223e$a9298640$6600a8c0@tababook> >> Ooh... a Chronograph. Very nice. >>> Yep. There's another variant of it that I want. The one I have has >>> only > a single serial port on it. The original had two, one passed through so > you could connect a SmartModem to it as well. Why?! To configure the clock?! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 12:45:38 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:45:38 -0400 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <00e401cd223e$a9298640$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> <00e401cd223e$a9298640$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Ooh... a Chronograph. ?Very nice. >> >> Yep. ?There's another variant of it that I want. ?The one I have has >> only a single serial port on it. ?The original had two, one passed through so >> you could connect a SmartModem to it as well. > > ? Why?! To configure the clock?! Presumably to not "consume" a (your only?) serial port just to set the time... an external version of the "no slot clocks". I've never seen that variant. Mine is the single serial port version. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 24 12:57:40 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <00e401cd223e$a9298640$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> <00e401cd223e$a9298640$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Ooh... a Chronograph. Very nice. >>>> Yep. There's another variant of it that I want. The one I have has only >> a single serial port on it. The original had two, one passed through so >> you could connect a SmartModem to it as well. > You could do that as well. The idea being that the Chronograph would respond to Chronograph commands and the modem to modem commands. That would allow you to have both devices connected at the same time in order to update a clock on the host computer, etc. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue Apr 24 13:01:50 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 18:01:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's Message-ID: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >From: Dave McGuire < mcguire at neurotica.com > > >On 04/23/2012 05:59 PM, joe lobocki wrote: >> I use a SD to CF adapter in my canon digital rebel without an issue, as I >> can no longer find CF (I also haven't tried a camera store but they are >> probably a ripoff...) > >Where do you live that you cannot find CF cards?! That's insane. I >bought a handful a couple of weeks ago, and the guy I'm crashing with >here in FL this week has three brand new ones sitting on his kitchen table. I was just at my local Office Depot (a chain of large office supply stores, for those not in the US) in downtown Chicago and they have Lexar 4 GB CF cards for $25 and 8 GB cards for $40, in stock. Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 13:20:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:20:06 -0400 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> Message-ID: <4F96EED6.2020500@neurotica.com> On 04/23/2012 10:25 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > The really strange thing about all this excursion into govt surplus is > the stuff they apparently still carry as critical weapons technology... > an HP 2100 minicomp? that's like the recent discussion about the > missile guidance computers... our govmnt at work! If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 13:21:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:21:06 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2B126CA0-8558-4EEA-AB00-3FF3C125297F@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2012, at 2:01 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: >> From: Dave McGuire < mcguire at neurotica.com > >> >> On 04/23/2012 05:59 PM, joe lobocki wrote: >>> I use a SD to CF adapter in my canon digital rebel without an issue, as I >>> can no longer find CF (I also haven't tried a camera store but they are >>> probably a ripoff...) >> >> Where do you live that you cannot find CF cards?! That's insane. I >> bought a handful a couple of weeks ago, and the guy I'm crashing with >> here in FL this week has three brand new ones sitting on his kitchen table. > > I was just at my local Office Depot (a chain of large office supply stores, for those not in the US) in downtown Chicago and they have Lexar 4 GB CF cards for $25 and 8 GB cards for $40, in stock. That's actually pretty expensive (it is an office supply store, so I'm not really that surprised). You can usually get them on Amazon for a great deal less; I think I got a 16GB CF card for our Scotland trip for around $25 there. I've never had a hard time finding CF cards. Regarding their usability as disk drives, though (something Eric Smith was pointing out), some of our embedded customers use purpose-built CF cards that are meant to be used as embedded drives (specifically, they are using Western Digital's SiliconDisk line). I wonder if their performance is improved over standard CompactFlash for ATA hard drive operations; I never ran too many benchmarks. - Dave From shumaker at att.net Tue Apr 24 13:24:03 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:24:03 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F96EED6.2020500@neurotica.com> References: <4F95C898.1040406@att.net> <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> <5CE3255F-A1CC-4022-8895-29D204B09149@gmail.com> <4F960F17.3080300@att.net> <4F96EED6.2020500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F96EFC3.6070804@att.net> On 4/24/2012 11:20 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/23/2012 10:25 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > >> The really strange thing about all this excursion into govt surplus is >> the stuff they apparently still carry as critical weapons technology... >> an HP 2100 minicomp? that's like the recent discussion about the >> missile guidance computers... our govmnt at work! >> > If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old? > > -Dave > > that pretty much covers everything..... steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 13:51:48 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:51:48 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <2B126CA0-8558-4EEA-AB00-3FF3C125297F@gmail.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <2B126CA0-8558-4EEA-AB00-3FF3C125297F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:21 PM, David Riley wrote: > Regarding their usability as disk drives, though (something Eric Smith > was pointing out), some of our embedded customers use purpose-built CF > cards that are meant to be used as embedded drives (specifically, they > are using Western Digital's SiliconDisk line). ?I wonder if their > performance is improved over standard CompactFlash for ATA hard drive > operations; I never ran too many benchmarks. I have a few CF-to-IDE adapters and a couple PCMCIA-to-IDE adapters - I'd be curious to see how to set up a viable benchmark on a Linux box to test media for 2 buffers vs 6 buffers, etc. Mostly, I use CF cards for my older pro-grade DSLR, and for projects like the Elf2K and a few hobby-built items that implement a simple IDE interface so they work with rotating media or CF cards. I have one Seagate PCMCIA-type-3 Microdrive; the rest of what I do is CF and Type-2 PCMCIA flash modules (from 2.5MB to 2GB so far). I do have this ancient 3rd party IDE sidecar for the Amiga 500 - I should drop one of my CF adapters in that and give it a spin. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 24 13:52:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:52:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <20120423135854.M50353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 23, 12 02:14:37 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > So, yes, its fine now. By the comments of some peopel here, though it > > shouldn't be in that reworkign the PCB should ahve reduced the > > reliability. Maybe it did, if I'd got one that didn't need reworking, it > > wowould go on even longer. But 20 years without problems, turned on and > > used just about every day, doesn't seen unrelaible to me. > > Competent "rework" fixed the other cold solder joints, etc. I've seen it claimed by some people here that any rework degrades the rleiability of a board. While this may well be true, this modem board which I reworkded has been turned on each day for about 20 years, used, and then turned off again with no problems (even though turnign it on and off may not be good for it either). You could claim that if it had never been reworked -- that is if it had not needed rework -- it would run ofro even longer. THat may be so. But quite honestly, a consumer device that runs for 20 eyars is not unreliable. I ahev no idea what the design lifetime of the unit is, but I would be suprised if it was that long. So I will stick to the comment that sensible reqork does not totally degrade reliabiiltiym and that boards that have been reworked can certainly be reliable enopugh to use. > > Haphazard "just get it done" "rework" will only fix the one joint that had > stopped making contact, possibly overheat adjacent pins and componenets, > add solder bridges, and in removal and reinstallation add physical > stresses to other bad joints. > So, "modern" incompetent "rework", as practiced by many companies, could > indeed reduce reliability. Hmmm.... Having seen some of the soldring in commercial devices I do wonder just how it was done... A red-hot poker, perhaps.... > > > MY experience with Sportster(S) was similar, other than that I did NOT > make the needed repairs. Well ,as their 'tech support' was abpit as useful as a gallium teaspoon, I had to fix it myself. > OTOH, I did not have any problems with their Courier(S). I never had one, so I can't comment. > > We got rid of the unreliable Sportsters, and every WinModem that came > along. Deities! I hate those things! Err, yes... Wasn't the idea to use the host comnputer CPU to do some of the DSP worK? No thanks... I can't believe the code exists for most of my machines... > Does anybody make a good reliable tiny portable USB modem? Since the origianl use of RS232 was to link a terminal to a modem, that's the one place where there should be no problems in using it. Note I said 'should'... At least it's one place wherne I will contiune to use RS232 ports to link to modems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 24 14:14:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 20:14:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F95CB35.1040800@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 23, 12 04:35:49 pm Message-ID: > I still much prefer big old CRTs to modern LCD displays, and it's rare that > there's not a stack of stuff parked on the top edge of the case. :-) One of the gret things abotu the HP9836 machines was that the monitor has a large flat top and that there were no cooling vats on it. And being an HP it was solid. You could happly put a dot matrix printer or pen plotter on top of that monitor when the system was in use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 24 14:16:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 20:16:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 23, 12 02:59:08 pm Message-ID: > > Well, there's a third option--Microdrives. There was (and may still > be) a guy on eBay selling 4GB Seagate Microdrives NOS for less than > $5 shipped. When I first read that, I thoguh you were talking about an endless loop tape drive that Sinclar used on the Spectrum and QL machines.. I wouldn't recomend those for anything... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 24 14:20:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 20:20:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F95F387.2080808@att.net> from "steve shumaker" at Apr 23, 12 05:27:51 pm Message-ID: > The comment about the wait involved a requirement that I'd not dealt > with before - namely that of an EUC or End User Certificate. DLA does a > background check to validate that you are a US citizen when the item in > question is prohibited from sale to a foreign national (Demil Q). That > process took 8 wks. Once completed, G/L releases the item to the > shipper. FastTrack shipped it from OH to CA in 10 days. Are you saying there are export restrictions on an HP2100A? I hate to say this, but there are plenty of them outside the States.... -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 24 15:01:25 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204242001.QAA03982@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] abpit as useful as a gallium teaspoon, [...] That is a *delightful* comparsion! Thank you for my afternoon's laugh. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 15:20:10 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:20:10 -0700 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2012 at 18:01, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > I was just at my local Office Depot (a chain of large office supply > stores, for those not in the US) in downtown Chicago and they have > Lexar 4 GB CF cards for $25 and 8 GB cards for $40, in stock. When Office Depot charges $15 for a simple Chinese-made 1m USB A-B cable, I'm not surprised. My latest 8GB Class 4 SanDisk MicroSD cards cost $2.99 each, shipped from a US seller and they arrived in 3 days from the order. No adapter, of course. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 24 15:35:36 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204242035.QAA04612@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Are you saying there are export restrictions on an HP2100A? I hate > to say this, but there are plenty of them outside the States.... Export restrictions have rarely had anything to do with sense. Consider the days when crypto developed outside the USA (eg, IDEA), once imported, couldn't be re-exported again - or at least not without a lot of annoying paperwork. Head-in-the-sand at its finest. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 15:39:27 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:39:27 -0400 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B4259E9-178C-401A-B34A-25D1A702B4C2@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2012, at 3:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The comment about the wait involved a requirement that I'd not dealt >> with before - namely that of an EUC or End User Certificate. DLA does a >> background check to validate that you are a US citizen when the item in >> question is prohibited from sale to a foreign national (Demil Q). That >> process took 8 wks. Once completed, G/L releases the item to the >> shipper. FastTrack shipped it from OH to CA in 10 days. > > Are you saying there are export restrictions on an HP2100A? I hate to say > this, but there are plenty of them outside the States.... It sounds more like there are export restrictions on *this* HP2100S. Presumably it had confidential military data on it, though if it is in fact NIB, that would surprise me. My guess is that it's just easier for them to assume there's data on it that shouldn't be exported than to make a mistake and export it. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 15:51:10 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:51:10 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2012, at 4:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Apr 2012 at 18:01, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > >> I was just at my local Office Depot (a chain of large office supply >> stores, for those not in the US) in downtown Chicago and they have >> Lexar 4 GB CF cards for $25 and 8 GB cards for $40, in stock. > > When Office Depot charges $15 for a simple Chinese-made 1m USB A-B > cable, I'm not surprised. Last I checked, Best Buy was still selling Monster brand gold-plated 1m USB cables for nearly $30. If I could sell all my A-B cables for even half that, I'd part with them in a heartbeat. HDMI cables, too; some of them are selling for $70 (and I know idiots who *swear* that the $70 ones give them a better picture or richer sound). Mind you, of course, the signal contacts on data cables are *always* gold-plated; the shield is the only thing most people see, though, and it makes probably the least difference electrically, at least until you get to microwave frequencies. - Dave From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 16:09:47 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 18:09:47 -0300 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> Message-ID: <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> I confess I had a HUGE noise problem in my mediacenter until I got one of these "premium" S-Video cables...And suddenly, all video became crispy and beautiful. I'm in love with my mediacenter (until when I get a plasma TV :D) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Riley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:51 PM Subject: Re: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's > On Apr 24, 2012, at 4:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 24 Apr 2012 at 18:01, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: >> >>> I was just at my local Office Depot (a chain of large office supply >>> stores, for those not in the US) in downtown Chicago and they have >>> Lexar 4 GB CF cards for $25 and 8 GB cards for $40, in stock. >> >> When Office Depot charges $15 for a simple Chinese-made 1m USB A-B >> cable, I'm not surprised. > > Last I checked, Best Buy was still selling Monster brand gold-plated > 1m USB cables for nearly $30. If I could sell all my A-B cables for > even half that, I'd part with them in a heartbeat. HDMI cables, > too; some of them are selling for $70 (and I know idiots who *swear* > that the $70 ones give them a better picture or richer sound). > > Mind you, of course, the signal contacts on data cables are *always* > gold-plated; the shield is the only thing most people see, though, > and it makes probably the least difference electrically, at least > until you get to microwave frequencies. > > > - Dave > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 24 16:14:08 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Apr 24, 12 04:51:10 pm" Message-ID: <201204242114.q3OLE8Xr11665512@floodgap.com> > > When Office Depot charges $15 for a simple Chinese-made 1m USB A-B > > cable, I'm not surprised. > > Last I checked, Best Buy was still selling Monster brand gold-plated > 1m USB cables for nearly $30. The local 99 Cent store sells A-B USB cables for ... wait for it ... 99.99 cents. (PRICE GOUGING!) That said, I wouldn't trust them much for data transfer above USB 1.1 speeds, but they work just fine for charging, and my AlphaSmart dana does very well with one for USB HotSync. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- To be, or not to be -- that always confused me ... -- "In Living Color" ---- From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 16:49:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 17:49:19 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2012, at 5:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > I confess I had a HUGE noise problem in my mediacenter until I got one of these "premium" S-Video cables...And suddenly, all video became crispy and beautiful. I'm in love with my mediacenter (until when I get a plasma TV :D) The difference is that S-video is analog, while HDMI is digital. S-video will degrade noticeably when subjected to noise; HDMI, on the other hand, will basically work more or less OK up until the point where it suddenly stops working. Premium cables are effective (to a point) on analog systems, though I think Monster very much oversells it and charges a lot more than you can get equivalently good cables for. They also have complete nonsense like "premium power cables", which are bogus because if you have noisy power, nicer power cables are just going to transmit the noise more accurately (though I'm not convinced they make a difference at all). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 16:51:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 17:51:04 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <201204242114.q3OLE8Xr11665512@floodgap.com> References: <201204242114.q3OLE8Xr11665512@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <66C3DA5F-DBDD-416C-9F4C-D818C2C707EF@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2012, at 5:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> When Office Depot charges $15 for a simple Chinese-made 1m USB A-B >>> cable, I'm not surprised. >> >> Last I checked, Best Buy was still selling Monster brand gold-plated >> 1m USB cables for nearly $30. > > The local 99 Cent store sells A-B USB cables for ... wait for it ... > 99.99 cents. (PRICE GOUGING!) How do they charge the fractional cents? - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 16:53:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 17:53:07 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <201204242114.q3OLE8Xr11665512@floodgap.com> References: <201204242114.q3OLE8Xr11665512@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2012, at 5:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The local 99 Cent store sells A-B USB cables for ... wait for it ... > 99.99 cents. (PRICE GOUGING!) > > That said, I wouldn't trust them much for data transfer above USB 1.1 > speeds, but they work just fine for charging, and my AlphaSmart dana does > very well with one for USB HotSync. Though that reminds me tangentially of the A-to-MiniB cable that came with a Freescale dev kit I got a while back. It was thin enough that I would call the data transfer suspect, but it had ferrites the size of walnuts on either end. Only 3 feet long, too. Goofiest-looking cable I ever got. - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 24 17:03:51 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 15:03:51 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F972347.7070302@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Are you saying there are export restrictions on an HP2100A? I hate to > say this, but there are plenty of them outside the States.... Are you assuming that government regulations make sense? Surely you know better. Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 24 17:08:58 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 15:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <66C3DA5F-DBDD-416C-9F4C-D818C2C707EF@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Apr 24, 12 05:51:04 pm" Message-ID: <201204242208.q3OM8w8C12779700@floodgap.com> > >>> When Office Depot charges $15 for a simple Chinese-made 1m USB A-B > >>> cable, I'm not surprised. > >> > >> Last I checked, Best Buy was still selling Monster brand gold-plated > >> 1m USB cables for nearly $30. > > > > The local 99 Cent store sells A-B USB cables for ... wait for it ... > > 99.99 cents. (PRICE GOUGING!) > > How do they charge the fractional cents? They round up the total at the register. So it's really a way of charging a dollar without actually doing so. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Look busy. Jesus is coming soon. ------------------------------------------- From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Apr 24 17:10:39 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:10:39 +0200 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1335305439.19474.6.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tis 2012-04-24 klockan 20:20 +0100 skrev Tony Duell: > > The comment about the wait involved a requirement that I'd not dealt > > with before - namely that of an EUC or End User Certificate. DLA does a > > background check to validate that you are a US citizen when the item in > > question is prohibited from sale to a foreign national (Demil Q). That > > process took 8 wks. Once completed, G/L releases the item to the > > shipper. FastTrack shipped it from OH to CA in 10 days. > > Are you saying there are export restrictions on an HP2100A? I hate to say > this, but there are plenty of them outside the States.... > > -tony Be happy that your gov will sell equipment on the 2nd hand market !! Here in Sweden very little from F?rsvarsmakten including spare equipment gets out into the 2nd hand market. Almost every corporation and most in the gov sector sends disused computers to the SCRAPPERS and later it ends up in R?nnsk?r (a large gold melting operation) Personally i live outside of Sk?vde and what do we find here ?? VOLVO who was a big Digital customer (Sk?vde makes car and truck engines for the world market.) Nothing of what they decommission gets out into the 2nd hand market. (a lot of VAX and PDP machines from PDP 11/70 thru VAXserver 4000.) Completely invisible.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 24 17:10:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 15:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <66C3DA5F-DBDD-416C-9F4C-D818C2C707EF@gmail.com> References: <201204242114.q3OLE8Xr11665512@floodgap.com> <66C3DA5F-DBDD-416C-9F4C-D818C2C707EF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120424150804.Q88254@shell.lmi.net> > > The local 99 Cent store sells A-B USB cables for ... wait for it ... > > 99.99 cents. (PRICE GOUGING!) > How do they charge the fractional cents? They round up, and charge 1.00 for stuff that is clearly advertised as being 0.99 (PRICE GOUGING!) They don't even try to claim that you would save 0.01 if you bought 100 items! From shumaker at att.net Tue Apr 24 17:17:50 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 15:17:50 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F97268E.7020806@att.net> On 4/24/2012 12:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The comment about the wait involved a requirement that I'd not dealt >> with before - namely that of an EUC or End User Certificate. DLA does a >> background check to validate that you are a US citizen when the item in >> question is prohibited from sale to a foreign national (Demil Q). That >> process took 8 wks. Once completed, G/L releases the item to the >> shipper. FastTrack shipped it from OH to CA in 10 days. >> > Are you saying there are export restrictions on an HP2100A? I hate to say > this, but there are plenty of them outside the States.... > > -tony > > I don't know about the "A" model - this one was an "S"and yes, it is still export restricted - that's the definition of a Demil Q class item Steve From shumaker at att.net Tue Apr 24 17:21:58 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 15:21:58 -0700 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <9B4259E9-178C-401A-B34A-25D1A702B4C2@gmail.com> References: <9B4259E9-178C-401A-B34A-25D1A702B4C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F972786.8090303@att.net> On 4/24/2012 1:39 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 24, 2012, at 3:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>> The comment about the wait involved a requirement that I'd not dealt >>> with before - namely that of an EUC or End User Certificate. DLA does a >>> background check to validate that you are a US citizen when the item in >>> question is prohibited from sale to a foreign national (Demil Q). That >>> process took 8 wks. Once completed, G/L releases the item to the >>> shipper. FastTrack shipped it from OH to CA in 10 days. >>> >> Are you saying there are export restrictions on an HP2100A? I hate to say >> this, but there are plenty of them outside the States.... >> > It sounds more like there are export restrictions on *this* HP2100S. > Presumably it had confidential military data on it, though if it is > in fact NIB, that would surprise me. My guess is that it's just > easier for them to assume there's data on it that shouldn't be > exported than to make a mistake and export it. > > > - Dave > > > > That might perhaps be the case although I suspect not. My understanding of the Demil process is that the DRMO people look up the NSN in their monster database. If they find a match they use the data to make disposition decisions. If the NSN for this item was never removed from the restricted category, then it will show up yet today as a export controlled item - and get a Demil Q code on the auction. Steve From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 19:30:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 17:30:29 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 23, 12 02:59:08 pm, Message-ID: <4F96E335.26212.2203022@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2012 at 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: > When I first read that, I thoguh you were talking about an endless > loop tape drive that Sinclar used on the Spectrum and QL machines.. I > wouldn't recomend those for anything... They stored 4GB ? Wow. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 24 19:35:59 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 17:35:59 -0700 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 24, at 2:49 PM, David Riley wrote: > They also > have complete nonsense like "premium power cables", which are > bogus because if you have noisy power, nicer power cables are > just going to transmit the noise more accurately (though I'm > not convinced they make a difference at all). I'd like to think this is a joke, but I suppose I'd be wrong: http://www.essentialsound.com/essence-power-cord/index.htm About 3 times the price from a few years ago when "premium power cables" were mentioned on the list. Of course, we don't actually know how many they have sold, if any. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 24 21:29:22 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:29:22 -0500 Subject: Prototype PCBs? Message-ID: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> Anyone know an inexpensive source for prototype DIY circuit boards? From time to time, I like to use them to prove out ideas, and I'm running low on stock. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 24 21:39:41 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prototype PCBs? In-Reply-To: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > Anyone know an inexpensive source for prototype DIY circuit boards? From > time to time, I like to use them to prove out ideas, and I'm running low on > stock. Try batchpcb.com. It seems well-regarded with the tinkering crowd. No gold fingers though. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 24 21:51:28 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prototype PCBs? In-Reply-To: References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Anyone know an inexpensive source for prototype DIY circuit boards? From >> time to time, I like to use them to prove out ideas, and I'm running low on >> stock. > > Try batchpcb.com. It seems well-regarded with the tinkering crowd. No gold > fingers though. Whoops, I think you probably wanted prototyping PCBs rather than prototype fabbing. Try this: http://www.hobbyengineering.com/SectionCP.html -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 24 21:59:05 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F96E335.26212.2203022@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 23, 12 02:59:08 pm, <4F96E335.26212.2203022@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120424195543.M96068@shell.lmi.net> > > When I first read that, I thoguh you were talking about an endless > > loop tape drive that Sinclar used on the Spectrum and QL machines.. I > > wouldn't recomend those for anything... On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > They stored 4GB ? Wow. Depending on the file structure, you could RECORD infinite amounts in that continuous loop. But you had no chance of reading back anything that wasn't on that last pass through the loop. And with many, such as the Exatron Stringy Floppy, you had little chance of reading ANYTHING back, even if you stayed within their file structure. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 24 22:05:46 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 22:05:46 -0500 Subject: Prototype PCBs? In-Reply-To: References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4F976A0A.9060005@jbrain.com> On 4/24/2012 9:51 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, David Griffith wrote: > >> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Jim Brain wrote: >> >>> Anyone know an inexpensive source for prototype DIY circuit boards? >>> From time to time, I like to use them to prove out ideas, and I'm >>> running low on stock. >> >> Try batchpcb.com. It seems well-regarded with the tinkering crowd. >> No gold fingers though. > > Whoops, I think you probably wanted prototyping PCBs rather than > prototype fabbing. Try this: > http://www.hobbyengineering.com/SectionCP.html > Yep :-) I have a great source (two, actually) for fast low count board runs, but no protoboards here (I suppose I could lay one out and order a run, but that seems like overkill :-) Shame they don't have this one in Phenolic in stock: http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H4687.html . I normally slice the boards up to maximize board use, and Phenolic is easier to cut. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 24 22:21:53 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 23:21:53 -0400 Subject: Less than 2 weeks until VCF East! Message-ID: <4F976DD1.2060309@snarc.net> Hellooooooooooooooo world. Vintage Computer Festival East 8.0 is less than two weeks from now: it happens on May 5-6, 2012, at the InfoAge Science Center (2201 Marconi Rd., Wall, New Jersey, USA.) This year's VCF East will be the biggest ever. As of last weekend, we're up to six lectures, eight technical workshops (the newest being an all-weekend, kid-friendly "learn to solder" class), and two dozen hands-on exhibits. You'll also find our book sale, consignment sale, lunch, museum tours, prizes, and more. This year's lectures are highlighted by keynotes at 12:30 each day. Saturday's keynote is Dr. Thomas Kurtz, who co-invented the BASIC programming language. Sunday's keynote is Daniel Kottke, who was Steve Jobs' college buddy, India travel companion, Apple 1 board debugger, and Apple II, III, and Macintosh engineer. We are thrilled that Kurtz and Kottke accepted our invitations! Admission to VCF East 8.0 is very inexpensive. Adult tickets are just $10 per day and $15 for the whole weekend. Anyone 17 and younger are admitted free. Tickets are sold at the door. Directions, lodging, and related details are also on the VCF web site at http://www.vintage.org/2012/east/ and be sure to 'like' us at http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast8. All questions, such as admission, how to exhibit, how to become a VCF sponsor or vendor, etc., as well as any other questions from the public and from media, should be addressed to event producer Evan Koblentz -- evan at snarc.net, or call him at (646) 546-9999. Proceeds from the VCF East 8.0 benefit the InfoAge center, which is a grassroots, all-volunteer educational facility, and the MARCH user group (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists). Thanks, and we hope to see you at the VCF East! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 23:04:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:04:33 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> On 04/24/2012 04:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My latest 8GB Class 4 SanDisk MicroSD cards cost $2.99 each, shipped > from a US seller and they arrived in 3 days from the order. No > adapter, of course. Are you sure it's a SanDisk? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 23:05:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:05:20 -0400 Subject: audiophools, was Re: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F977800.9000309@neurotica.com> On 04/24/2012 08:35 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'd like to think this is a joke, but I suppose I'd be wrong: > > http://www.essentialsound.com/essence-power-cord/index.htm > > About 3 times the price from a few years ago when "premium power cables" > were mentioned on the list. > > Of course, we don't actually know how many they have sold, if any. Probably quite a few. There are a LOT of audiophools out there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 23:13:11 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 01:13:11 -0300 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <070101cd2299$c72dca60$6600a8c0@tababook> >> My latest 8GB Class 4 SanDisk MicroSD cards cost $2.99 each, shipped >> from a US seller and they arrived in 3 days from the order. No >> adapter, of course. > Are you sure it's a SanDisk? Here in Brazil you find phony SDcards everywhere. The rule is "if it is in a package, is original" and seems to be true. But the price (in USA) seems not to be so far. I bought a 16GB card (for my Dreamcast) some weeks ago for R$ 35, which is Us$18. Considering it is double the capacity, and in Brazil, the land of huge markups and incredible taxes, I doubt in USA this card would cost more than $6-7. Ah, mine came with adapter. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 24 23:14:15 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prototype PCBs? In-Reply-To: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > Anyone know an inexpensive source for prototype DIY circuit boards? From > time to time, I like to use them to prove out ideas, and I'm running low on > stock. > I would recommend the boardhouse that SparkFun runs - http://batchpcb.com. You might also check out Seed Studio: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/fusion-pcb-service-p-835.html?cPath=185 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 23:17:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:17:13 -0700 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2012 at 0:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/24/2012 04:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > My latest 8GB Class 4 SanDisk MicroSD cards cost $2.99 each, > > shipped from a US seller and they arrived in 3 days from the order. > > No adapter, of course. > > Are you sure it's a SanDisk? That's what it says on the little niblet. It might be a counterfeit, but how do you tell? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 23:19:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:19:41 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <20120424195543.M96068@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F96E335.26212.2203022@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120424195543.M96068@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9718ED.12700.2F209B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2012 at 19:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > And with many, such as the Exatron Stringy Floppy, you had little > chance of reading ANYTHING back, even if you stayed within their file > structure. I wonder if anyone wrote poetry about the ZX Microdrive... --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 23:26:26 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:26:26 -0400 Subject: audiophools, was Re: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F977800.9000309@neurotica.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4F977800.9000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Apr 25, 2012, at 12:05 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/24/2012 08:35 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I'd like to think this is a joke, but I suppose I'd be wrong: >> >> http://www.essentialsound.com/essence-power-cord/index.htm >> >> About 3 times the price from a few years ago when "premium power cables" >> were mentioned on the list. >> >> Of course, we don't actually know how many they have sold, if any. > > Probably quite a few. There are a LOT of audiophools out there. I'll say. The kind that can buy into a phrase like "Cryogenic processing renders the Reference-II absolutely grainless." I read that as "brainless" at first, and I still think that's what they meant. My favorite analyses of these folks tend to come from James Randi: (sorry, very long link) http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1229-barnum-underestimated-the-birthrate-of-suckers.html From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 23:33:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:33:38 -0400 Subject: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2012, at 8:35 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'd like to think this is a joke, but I suppose I'd be wrong: > > http://www.essentialsound.com/essence-power-cord/index.htm > > About 3 times the price from a few years ago when "premium power cables" were mentioned on the list. > > Of course, we don't actually know how many they have sold, if any. On the other hand, perhaps this is a product line secretly designed to accelerate natural selection: http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/power_outlets - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 24 23:44:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:44:13 -0700 Subject: audiophools, was Re: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F977800.9000309@neurotica.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, , <4F977800.9000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F971EAD.26082.3087FC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2012 at 0:05, Dave McGuire wrote: > Probably quite a few. There are a LOT of audiophools out there. ...and one can't help but think of Bob Pease who used to rail against such nonsense. Didn't he offer to hold a blind listening test between premium speaker cable and zip cord? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 24 23:50:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:50:37 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F97829D.7010806@neurotica.com> On 04/25/2012 12:17 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> My latest 8GB Class 4 SanDisk MicroSD cards cost $2.99 each, >>> shipped from a US seller and they arrived in 3 days from the order. >>> No adapter, of course. >> >> Are you sure it's a SanDisk? > > That's what it says on the little niblet. It might be a counterfeit, > but how do you tell? If you write data to it and can't read it back. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 23:50:24 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 01:50:24 -0300 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <071c01cd229f$00d3fe10$6600a8c0@tababook> Get the h2testw on the net and run it on card (with the card empty). It will tell you. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 1:17 AM Subject: Re: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's > On 25 Apr 2012 at 0:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 04/24/2012 04:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > My latest 8GB Class 4 SanDisk MicroSD cards cost $2.99 each, >> > shipped from a US seller and they arrived in 3 days from the order. >> > No adapter, of course. >> >> Are you sure it's a SanDisk? > > That's what it says on the little niblet. It might be a counterfeit, > but how do you tell? > > --Chuck > From barythrin at yahoo.com Wed Apr 25 00:32:49 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 22:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1335331969.41627.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Sweet! All my friends are gonna be so jealous when they hear the new sound that power cable gives my dvd player. I even went and got the best HDMI cable http://www.bestbuy.com/site/AudioQuest+-+Chocolate+65.6%27+HDMI+Cable+-+Platinum+White/9892794.p?id=1218202121644&skuId=9892794 and my handy Delkon ethernet cable http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM/ref=cm_rdp_product it's gonna stream the future! Yeah honestly I don't know why these are legal to sell. --- On Tue, 4/24/12, David Riley wrote: > From: David Riley > Subject: Audiophilia > > I'd like to think this is a joke, but I suppose I'd be > wrong: > > > >? http://www.essentialsound.com/essence-power-cord/index.htm > > > > About 3 times the price from a few years ago when > "premium power cables" were mentioned on the list. > > On the other hand, perhaps this is a product line secretly > designed to > accelerate natural selection: > > http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/power_outlets From barythrin at yahoo.com Wed Apr 25 00:35:18 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 22:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1335332118.48247.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I mean really.. with the reviews on these things they just sell themselves http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-K2-terminated-speaker-cable/dp/B000J36XR2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_7 (yeah ok I'll stop) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 25 00:38:37 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 23:38:37 -0600 Subject: audiophools, was Re: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4F977800.9000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F978DDD.1080509@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/24/2012 10:26 PM, David Riley wrote: > I'll say. The kind that can buy into a phrase like "Cryogenic > processing renders the Reference-II absolutely grainless." I've always wondered what they compare with for audio quality? It is hard to have good sound with the quality of music going down over the years is my view. > I read that as "brainless" at first, and I still think that's > what they meant. As for audio power cables here, I just use the spares I got from Junk Computer stuff. Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 25 00:50:39 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 01:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F97829D.7010806@neurotica.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com> <4F97829D.7010806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201204250550.BAA13180@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> That's what it says on the little niblet. It might be a >> counterfeit, but how do you tell? > If you write data to it and can't read it back. ;) I just recently (earlier today) bought a USB thumb drive. I'm doing a write-read-compare pass over the whole drive, with uncompressible data (uncompressible in practice, not from an information-theoretic point of view - it's very repetitive, but encrypted with IDEA before being written). The capacity is already overstated even more than I can account for by the usual disk-manufacturer derating, but if I've got less capacity than it claims in its "I've got this many sectors" report, I want to know it. The write pass is somewhere around half done as I type this. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jonas at otter.se Tue Apr 24 07:28:51 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:28:51 +0200 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 104, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40bd12113fdfcbe3a9886be998f676a5@otter.se> Tony Duell and wrote: > >> > How coome 2 of use here (at least) seem to have contradictory = >> findings? >> >> Because it's anecdotal. BTW here's the definition: >> (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on >> personal accounts rather than facts or research > > By the same token, your evidence is anecdotal to me. You have not > provided (for perfectly valdi reasons) any hard data, and certainly > not > any hard data that I can verify. OK, I haven't either. > > But I ahve to say that while you may not beleive what I see, I > certainly > do. I know what components I rpelace... > >> Fine. There's lots of things that I've started to say on this list >> to = >> deal with an >> argument and couldn't because it would violate various NDA's that I >> have = >> to >> live under (I kinda like my job). Arguments on this (and other >> fora) = >> while >> fun aren't worth sacrificing my livelihood. >> >> I'm sorry if you can't/won't understand how large companies work and >> the >> restrictions that are put on employees and the products (though some >> = >> have > > I mosster certainly understnad that (having signed a fair few NDAs in > my > time too, and yes, I do honour them). And that's the 'valid reasons' > I > mentioend. > > But to be fair, if I can't verify the data, why on earth should _I_ > beleive it? You could be telling me anything. > > -tony Now this is getting silly. There is no point in trying to say that what Tony is seeing is wrong: unless he is psychotic he is actually observing something that really has happened to him. And all that "I have this fancy job in industry and I have signed lots of NDAs, so I am important, while Tony is just a geek living with his parents" is a) rude and patronising and b) hiding behind these NDAs you claim to have signed. So go out and find publically available research reports or whatever on the Internet to prove your point, instead of trying to impress us with smoke and mirrors. However I think is probably right in one respect about modern computers being more reliable: considering the complexity of a modern $500 PC, it is probably much more reliable than anything made in the '70s *at a corresponding price for the period*, i e today's cheap junk is more reliable thatn cheap junk from the '70s and '80s. OTOH Tony is also right that old computers were/are at least as reliable: they were better made than today's cheap junk. /Jonas From CyndeM at vulcan.com Tue Apr 24 09:40:14 2012 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 14:40:14 +0000 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Polyethelene? Polypropyline? Polyvinyl Chloride? Or some mixture? I am curious because I have a boatload of paper tapes to preserve and protect for posterity. Those DEC tape boxes are nice; they stack and seem to preserve the paper tapes in an available, usable ways. I have also seen a photo of paper tapes on shelves; a whole bank of narrow shelves about 3 inches high, with labels on the shelves. That looked pretty good, if they could be protected from dust. How do you guys manage long-term storage of your paper tape collections? Are there any fatal errors, like would storing them upright for a long time cause a bad enough slump in the paper to prevent readability? Do you keep them out of the sun? What about aftermarket identification labels on the leader, how thick can this become before the tape doesn't work any more? What other problems have you seen? Thanks, Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist, Vintage Computing Vulcan Inc. 206 342-2385 http://www.vulcan.com http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 11:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: paper tape trays > What kind of material are you going to make them out of? Will it be > archival quality material; something that will last a long time > without chipping or outgassing? Rosewood? From rpartridge1949 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 17:26:19 2012 From: rpartridge1949 at gmail.com (Richard Partridge) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 23:26:19 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Query Any TI-961 experts? Message-ID: Hello, Is this message still valid? Regards, Richard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 25 01:07:09 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:07:09 -0600 Subject: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1335332118.48247.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1335332118.48247.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F97948D.8000809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/24/2012 11:35 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > I mean really.. with the reviews on these things they just sell > themselves > http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-K2-terminated-speaker-cable/dp/B000J36XR2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_7 > Do choclate right -- the LP http://newslite.tv/2011/06/30/band-release-edible-and-playab.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 01:18:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 23:18:27 -0700 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <071c01cd229f$00d3fe10$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <071c01cd229f$00d3fe10$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F9734C3.25538.35EC562@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2012 at 1:50, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Get the h2testw on the net and run it on card (with the card > empty). It will tell you. Yup, found that one; currently running. It wouldn't surprise me if it was fake, but then two cost me less than $6. I'll let you know how it goes. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 01:19:22 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 23:19:22 -0700 Subject: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1335332118.48247.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> <1335332118.48247.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2012 11:04 PM, "Sam Onella" wrote: > > I mean really.. with the reviews on these things they just sell themselves http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-K2-terminated-speaker-cable/dp/B000J36XR2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_7 > > (yeah ok I'll stop) Are those real products or a running comedy routine on Amazon? Some of those review comments made me laugh pretty hard. Someone must have a lot of free time to write that stuff. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 25 01:51:13 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 08:51:13 +0200 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120425085113.33b03316.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 23:54:43 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: > Because the erase block size inside the card is > large, they have to do blocking and deblocking to that size. Modern NAND-Flash chips have a usual erase block size of 512 bytes. This fits the 512 byte blocks of disks. So no (de)blocking. The write buffering is mainly there to mitigate the effects of several consecutive writs to a single block. (E.g. directory structures.) There is an other problem: MLC. Multi Level Cells. In the old days a Flash cell stored a single bit. There was a single comparator with a single threshold to decide 0 or 1. Current SD cards are MLC. They compare the voltage in a single flash cell to e.g. three thresholds and thus can store two bits per cell. Newer devices can store three bits per cell. This means the thresholds get closer to each other. Unfortunately reading the contents of a cell draws a few electrons of its charge. So the voltage of the cell drops a tiny bit with every read. Given the narrow voltage windows of a triple bit cell its only a question of time when read cycles drop the voltage below the next threshold. - Reading becomes destructive! I addition these MLC devices have a very small count of write cycles. Down to 1000 writes per erase block. Thats OK for a MP3 player or digicam, but in no way this is a reliable storage medium. SD cards are cheap consumer junk. Yes, at work we have been bitten by this problem. Servely. :-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 25 02:04:32 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:04:32 -0700 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F97A200.9000508@brouhaha.com> Cynde Moya wrote: > Polyethelene? Polypropyline? Polyvinyl Chloride? Or some mixture? > Definitely don't use PVC (or any form of vinyl) for archival storage. It outgasses plasticizers and other chemicals that cause degradation of paper and other materials. http://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/photo.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 02:03:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:03:58 -0700 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <071c01cd229f$00d3fe10$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <071c01cd229f$00d3fe10$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F973F6E.30914.3886E2E@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2012 at 1:50, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Get the h2testw on the net and run it on card (with the card > empty). It > will tell you. Well, if it's a fake, they're getting better. H2TESTW writes and verifies the whole thing. Eh, fake or not, it'll do. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 25 02:54:45 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 00:54:45 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <20120425085113.33b03316.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> <20120425085113.33b03316.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4F97ADC5.2060408@brouhaha.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > Modern NAND-Flash chips have a usual erase block size of 512 bytes. It's certainly true that you can buy NAND flash chips with 512-byte pages; that is called "small-block NAND". They're commonly used in embedded systems. However, the high-density (e.g., 64 to 256 Gbit) NAND flash devices used in memory cards are normally "large-block NAND", with typical page sizes of 4K or 8K, and erase block sizes of 512KB or larger (1024 sectors or more!), so they do in fact have the blocking/deblocking problem I described. With regard to the this problem, the erase block size is general the bigger problem, since erase can only be done at the block level, not the page level. I can't give specific details from datasheets due to having to agree to NDAs to get the datasheets (ugh!), but look at the datasheets from most any of the major NAND flash vendors for their large-block NAND parts. The reason for the use of large-block NAND is that it is significantly less expensive than small-block NAND. Except at the high end of the flash-drive/flash-card market, cost is the overriding concern. As a result, far more R&D goes into large-block rather than small-block. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 25 03:14:21 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 01:14:21 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <20120425085113.33b03316.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> <20120425085113.33b03316.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4F97B25D.6060801@brouhaha.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > Modern NAND-Flash chips have a usual erase block size of 512 bytes. Further to my previous comments about this, a quick survey of recent NAND flash parts does not seem to support your statement at all. It appears that for "modern" parts, even the small-block devices now typically have an erase block size of 16KB or more. The "page size" can be as small as 512 bytes, but you can't erase those independently. Back in 2005 Micron published a technical note on small-block vs. large-block NAND that discusses some of the technical tradeoffs, though it focuses more on write performance than cost: http://www.micron.com/~/media/Documents/Products/Technical%20Note/NAND%20Flash/136tn2907.ashx While the device densities have continued exponential growth in the seven years since that was published, as far as I can tell the engineering tradeoffs are still quite similar. There are NAND flash chips (or System-in-Package devices) that contain both the controller and the NAND flash; these have an external interface that uses 512-byte sectors, but they still have to deal with larger erase blocks internally, just like packaged flash cards and USB flash drives do. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 25 03:52:01 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 01:52:01 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <20120425085113.33b03316.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> <20120425085113.33b03316.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4F97BB31.5060101@brouhaha.com> Jochen Kunz wrote about MLC flash memory cells: > Unfortunately reading the contents of a cell draws a few electrons of > its charge. I'd be interested in references for that, as it contradicts everything I've seen in the published literature on the theory of operation of flash memory. In normal flash memory, even MLC, reading the cell does not take any of its charge. The charge is on a floating gate, electrically insulated from the conductors used to read it. As in a normal MOSFET, there is no DC current from the floating gate to the source or drain. The oxide for the floating gate has to be a *very* good insulator under normal conditions, including reading; this is why the flash part can store the data for years. Without using the erase mechansim, the leakage of electrons is measured as a very small (<20) number of electrons per year. The write and erase processes, on the other hand, use high potential on an additional gate to cause tunnelling of electrons through the oxide. This is an entirely different mechanism from how the cells are read. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 25 04:20:16 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:20:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Fwd: Query Any TI-961 experts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Richard Partridge wrote: > Is this message still valid? How should I know? And what exactly is a TI-961? I have a TI-960, though. Christian From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Apr 25 05:57:39 2012 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm at sunflower.com) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 05:57:39 -0500 Subject: Calling Todd Goodman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6183F752885144EAA1ACE2801E0D5648@990FX> Been trying to email you, but your isp is blocking my mail domain as spam. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 25 06:20:00 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:20:00 +0100 Subject: Calling Todd Goodman In-Reply-To: <6183F752885144EAA1ACE2801E0D5648@990FX> References: <6183F752885144EAA1ACE2801E0D5648@990FX> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:57 AM, wrote: > Been trying to email you, but your isp is blocking my mail domain as spam. Who? (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Under the Obama plan, NASA will spend $100 billion on human spaceflight over the next 10 years in order to accomplish nothing" -Robert Zubrin From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 25 07:09:25 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 14:09:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Fwd: Query Any TI-961 experts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > How should I know? And what exactly is a TI-961? I have a TI-960, though. Ah, found the original question. I'd have found it earlier if classiccmp were a Usenet group with correct threading ;-) Christian From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 25 07:27:54 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 05:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Cynde Moya wrote: > How do you guys manage long-term storage of your paper tape collections? > Are there any fatal errors, like would storing them upright for a long > time cause a bad enough slump in the paper to prevent readability? Do > you keep them out of the sun? What about aftermarket identification > labels on the leader, how thick can this become before the tape doesn't > work any more? What other problems have you seen? It would be pretty trivial to build a vacuum forming mold and use ABS plastic... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Wed Apr 25 01:37:17 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 16:37:17 +1000 Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> References: <201204230756.DAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <21C0F4B3-43DB-4140-A7BE-A8FFCB649906@cs.ubc.ca> <201204230907.FAA02643@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F95B023.7090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F9E4129-6767-4625-B533-064B1256C2F9@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 24/04/2012, at 5:40 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > My favourite is that as more people in the UK are injured by tripping on loose slippers than are injuried by chain saws then slippers are more dangerous that chain saws. Fact is very few folks in the UK own chain saws... > (Not sure how well slippers translates into West Pondian but lightweight house shoes?) The stat I like best is that the world's most dangerous sport is Lawn Bowls, as more people die playing it than any other sport? It has nothing to do with the sport's demographic! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From alberto at a2sistemi.org Wed Apr 25 07:03:25 2012 From: alberto at a2sistemi.org (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 SISTEMI) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 14:03:25 +0200 Subject: Help on HP9836CU Message-ID: <006d01cd22db$7e768090$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> I have an HP9836CU (series 9000/200) without monitor cable. The computer seem to boot up, the monitor, when powered, has no activity. The cable (15 pin Dsub male to male) is pin to pin ? all pin used ? I'm going to build the cable, but I'm not sure about pinout There is a service manual with circuit diagrams ? I've found only the manual on the HP Australian museum, but is a board level manual. Thanks in advance Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 MUSEO DEL COMPUTER / COMPUTER MUSEUM http://www.oldcomputers.it Mail:info at oldcomputers.it Tel 0321 1856032 Fax 0321 2046034 ------------------------------------------------------ Le telefonate con numero nascosto sono filtrate Calls with no caller identifier are filtered ------------------------------------------------------ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 08:59:57 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 10:59:57 -0300 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <071c01cd229f$00d3fe10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F973F6E.30914.3886E2E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <09bc01cd22eb$c6127610$6600a8c0@tababook> >> Get the h2testw on the net and run it on card (with the card >> empty). It >> will tell you. > Well, if it's a fake, they're getting better. H2TESTW writes and > verifies the whole thing. If H2TESTW says it is good, you can trust it. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 09:01:10 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:01:10 -0300 Subject: paper tape trays References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> Or a 3D printer with PLA :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:27 AM Subject: RE: paper tape trays > On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Cynde Moya wrote: > >> How do you guys manage long-term storage of your paper tape collections? >> Are there any fatal errors, like would storing them upright for a long >> time cause a bad enough slump in the paper to prevent readability? Do you >> keep them out of the sun? What about aftermarket identification labels on >> the leader, how thick can this become before the tape doesn't work any >> more? What other problems have you seen? > > It would be pretty trivial to build a vacuum forming mold and use ABS > plastic... > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 25 10:13:30 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 08:13:30 -0700 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> On 4/25/2012 7:01 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Or a 3D printer with PLA :) > That would take forever. A homebuilt vacuforming rig could bang out dozens of those things an hour. g. From sander.reiche at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 10:23:17 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 17:23:17 +0200 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 25 apr. 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Cynde Moya wrote: > >> How do you guys manage long-term storage of your paper tape collections? Are there any fatal errors, like would storing them upright for a long time cause a bad enough slump in the paper to prevent readability? Do you keep them out of the sun? What about aftermarket identification labels on the leader, how thick can this become before the tape doesn't work any more? What other problems have you seen? > > It would be pretty trivial to build a vacuum forming mold and use ABS plastic... > Could you elaborate on this? Maybe a website with this procedure explained for unenlightened people in the World of Plastics(tm)? re, Sander From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 10:23:09 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:23:09 -0300 Subject: paper tape trays References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <0ab801cd22f7$5c4e8a50$6600a8c0@tababook> >> Or a 3D printer with PLA :) > That would take forever. A homebuilt vacuforming rig could bang out > dozens of those things an hour. This is another problem. Can we solve one problem at a time, please? :o) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 10:31:11 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:31:11 -0400 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On 4/25/2012 7:01 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> >> Or a 3D printer with PLA :) >> > That would take forever. ?A homebuilt vacuforming rig could bang out dozens > of those things an hour. Indeed. We have a 2'x3' sign-making vacuformer at our hackerspace. I think the stock on hand is colored polystyrene - rather thin, but it conforms well. I was thinking about making a form out of 6mm hardboard. The thing that will take the longest is drilling lots of tiny holes in the base to get a good pull. One thought is to make a form that has no base and looks a little like this... TTTTTT Where the backstop is one piece as wide as necessary (probably around 8") and each "leaf" is long enough to hold a stack of fanfold tape with some protective gap (around 10" IIRC). That would take a few minutes to cobble up. There's room on the table for at least 4 of these in one pull (you have to do a full sheet at a time or the vacuum doesn't work - it's a simple machine with no way to block or divert the air for a partial sheet, or to clamp a partial sheet in the carriage) -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 25 10:37:30 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Sander Reiche wrote: > On 25 apr. 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Cynde Moya wrote: >> >>> How do you guys manage long-term storage of your paper tape collections? Are there any fatal errors, like would storing them upright for a long time cause a bad enough slump in the paper to prevent readability? Do you keep them out of the sun? What about aftermarket identification labels on the leader, how thick can this become before the tape doesn't work any more? What other problems have you seen? >> >> It would be pretty trivial to build a vacuum forming mold and use ABS plastic... >> > Could you elaborate on this? Maybe a website with this procedure > explained for unenlightened people in the World of Plastics(tm)? > Here's a site that goes into it a bit: http://www.studiocreations.com/howto/vacuumforming/index.html Essentially, you heat up a sheet of plastic until it becomes "droopy", then press it over a positive mold that has a shopvac pulling air through it. When the plastic seals over the perimeter of the mold, it goes "thunk" and you've got a bit of plastic sucked into the shape of the mold. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 25 10:50:43 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 08:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <0ab801cd22f7$5c4e8a50$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> <0ab801cd22f7$5c4e8a50$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Or a 3D printer with PLA :) >> That would take forever. A homebuilt vacuforming rig could bang out dozens >> of those things an hour. > > This is another problem. Can we solve one problem at a time, please? :o) You draw up what you need and I can easily make the mold for it. I'll leave it up to someone else to build the vacuforming rig. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 11:09:49 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:09:49 -0500 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: take forever and would be pretty expensive and the quality is not the best On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > > Or a 3D printer with PLA :) > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Cc: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:27 AM > > Subject: RE: paper tape trays > > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Cynde Moya wrote: >> >> How do you guys manage long-term storage of your paper tape collections? >>> Are there any fatal errors, like would storing them upright for a long time >>> cause a bad enough slump in the paper to prevent readability? Do you keep >>> them out of the sun? What about aftermarket identification labels on the >>> leader, how thick can this become before the tape doesn't work any more? >>> What other problems have you seen? >>> >> >> It would be pretty trivial to build a vacuum forming mold and use ABS >> plastic... >> >> g. >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/**coll - >> Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! >> >> Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a >> server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. >> [Cipher in a.s.r] >> > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 11:11:49 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:11:49 -0500 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: indeed what i was thinking of doing or trying to make my own molds and experiment with that. what hackerspace u belong to? skullspace here witch sublets half our 8000sqft floor to a makerspace called assentworks rediculasly cheap rent allowed for this On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > On 4/25/2012 7:01 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> > >> > >> Or a 3D printer with PLA :) > >> > > That would take forever. A homebuilt vacuforming rig could bang out > dozens > > of those things an hour. > > Indeed. We have a 2'x3' sign-making vacuformer at our hackerspace. I > think the stock on hand is colored polystyrene - rather thin, but it > conforms well. I was thinking about making a form out of 6mm > hardboard. The thing that will take the longest is drilling lots of > tiny holes in the base to get a good pull. > > One thought is to make a form that has no base and looks a little like > this... > > TTTTTT > > Where the backstop is one piece as wide as necessary (probably around > 8") and each "leaf" is long enough to hold a stack of fanfold tape > with some protective gap (around 10" IIRC). That would take a few > minutes to cobble up. > > There's room on the table for at least 4 of these in one pull (you > have to do a full sheet at a time or the vacuum doesn't work - it's a > simple machine with no way to block or divert the air for a partial > sheet, or to clamp a partial sheet in the carriage) > > -ethan > > From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Wed Apr 25 11:09:35 2012 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 18:09:35 +0200 Subject: BA23 Cooling and Power Supply Questions Message-ID: I have several BA23 enclosures with differing cooling assemblies and power supplies. I'm not sure everything is still as it once was when it was sold. Questions concerning the BA23 cooling and PSUs: Where/when and in what combinations were the following cooling options used: - With/without fan speed control (70-22643-01; regulates from 5.9 V [cold] to 10.3 V [warm] with 12 V input) - With/without front fan baffle/cowling (70-21506-01) - Full/reduced fan voltage (4 possible H7864 settings; 12.2 V, 11.5 V, 10.8 V, 10.1 V) What are the differences between the three PSU versions (besides the known 12 V 6A/7A)? Known facts: A sticker under the PSU tells that the fan speed control is to be used with the 12 V setting only (which makes sense) Assumptions: The front fan baffle/cowling accomplishes that most of the front fan cooling effect is concentrated on the PSU and card cage; the cooling of the two drive bays at the front of the BA23 will get worse because of that. A fully loaded card cage with power consuming modules might be a reason to use the baffle. Using an RD53 and a TK50 in the front drive bays might require more intensive cooling directed to the bays by not employing the baffle. Quotes on the baffle: EK-186AA-MG-001 BA23 Enclosure Maintenance.pdf (10/88) Page 3-24: "On some systems, remove the fan baffle and baffle holder from the front fan." Page 3-31: Figure 3-20: Accessing the Front Fan: "OLDER SYSTEMS ONLY" [relates to the baffle removal] EK-MIC11-SG-001 MicroPDP-11 Systems-2.pdf (09/85) Page 8-32: "Remove the fan cowling and cowling holder (if present)." Three versions of PSU H7864: H7864 (30-20444-00) 5V, 36A / 12V 6A H7864-A (30-21749-01) 5V, 36A / 12V 7A H7864-B ??? Quotes on the PSU versions and fan voltage settings: EK-186AA-MG-001 BA23 Enclosure Maintenance.pdf (10/88) Page 1-14: "There are three variations of the power supply, depending on the enclosure model number: H7864, H7864-A, or H7864-B." "The power supply has also two +10 Vdc at 0.45 A fan outputs for the front and rear dc fans. You can increase the fan voltages to 12 Vdc by changing a power supply jumper. However, the KA630 CPU module's thermal and acoustical specifications are based on the +10 volt setting." Page 3-2: Table 3-1 BA23 FRUs ??? Who can shed some light on this ??? Regards, Ulli From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 11:26:58 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 09:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120425092408.N14181@shell.lmi.net> > > Are you sure it's a SanDisk? On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's what it says on the little niblet. It might be a counterfeit, > but how do you tell? I bought a handful of "Sandisk SD MicroSDHC Adapters". The labels are on crooked, not as glossy as my previous Sandisk adapters, and fading rapidly; the "write-protect" slide switch is present only as an inert bump on the side. Could those be bogus? From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 25 11:30:56 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:30:56 -0500 Subject: Prototype PCBs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9826C0.1060306@pico-systems.com> > > > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 21:29:22 -0500 > From: Jim Brain > > Message-ID: <4F976182.50500 at jbrain.com> > > Anyone know an inexpensive source for prototype DIY circuit boards? > From time to time, I like to use them to prove out ideas, and I'm > running low on stock. > I have been using E-Teknet in Arizona for some time. They are not the cheapest, but they are very good. The match your board characteristics with the best shop in China to make it. I've never had a bad board from them, and I have done everything from two-layer boards smaller than a postage stamp to 6-layer boards the size of a full sheet of paper. If you order 4 or less they don't charge you for the testing. Jon From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 25 11:29:34 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 09:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On 4/25/2012 7:01 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> >>> >>> Or a 3D printer with PLA :) >>> >> That would take forever. ?A homebuilt vacuforming rig could bang out dozens >> of those things an hour. > > Indeed. We have a 2'x3' sign-making vacuformer at our hackerspace. I > think the stock on hand is colored polystyrene - rather thin, but it > conforms well. I was thinking about making a form out of 6mm > hardboard. The thing that will take the longest is drilling lots of > tiny holes in the base to get a good pull. > Ethan if your hackerspace has a cnc router, it'll make short work of drilling those holes. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 11:49:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 09:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F9718ED.12700.2F209B1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F96E335.26212.2203022@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120424195543.M96068@shell.lmi.net> <4F9718ED.12700.2F209B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120425094847.X14181@shell.lmi.net> > > And with many, such as the Exatron Stringy Floppy, you had little > > chance of reading ANYTHING back, even if you stayed within their file > > structure. > On Tue, 24 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder if anyone wrote poetry about the ZX Microdrive... The Vogons did. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 12:09:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 10:09:28 -0700 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120425092408.N14181@shell.lmi.net> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120425092408.N14181@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F97CD58.6980.3886B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2012 at 9:26, Fred Cisin wrote: > I bought a handful of "Sandisk SD MicroSDHC Adapters". The labels are > on crooked, not as glossy as my previous Sandisk adapters, and fading > rapidly; the "write-protect" slide switch is present only as an inert > bump on the side. Could those be bogus? How can you tell, if it's just the label? After all, what's in an adapter--just some contacts and a switch. If it works, it will probably keep on working. I put the micro SDHC under the inspection microscope. The printing appears to be crisp and the lot number is in a different ink. If it's a forgery, it's a darned good one. Of course, this could be a used one sold as new--how does one tell that? Is there a register that can be read that tells you the number of writes performed? --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 12:19:51 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:19:51 -0500 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: if his does not i got access to a metal and wood cnc at the maker space From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 25 12:24:45 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:24:45 -0600 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: In article , Adrian Stoness writes: > take forever and would be pretty expensive and the quality is not the best "pretty expensive"?!? I don't know why you guys keep saying 3D printer stuff is expensive because all the people who operate them tell me that it's extremely cheap. (Like a few cents to print a toggle switch.) There are at least 3 in our maker group that have 3D printers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 12:36:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 13:36:51 -0400 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > indeed what i was thinking of doing or trying to make my own molds and > experiment with that. > > what hackerspace u belong to? The Columbus Idea Foundry - http://www.columbusideafoundry.com/ As to Gene's comment, we do have a 4'x8' Shopbot, but the smallest bit we tend to run on it is 3/16" (4mm) to avoid snapping smaller bits. I'm setting up a smaller (12"x12") CNC, but it's a ways out from being up and running. -ethan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 25 13:10:42 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 14:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120425092408.N14181@shell.lmi.net> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9777D1.2090206@neurotica.com> <4F971859.21606.2EFC510@cclist.sydex.com> <20120425092408.N14181@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201204251810.OAA23723@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > the "write-protect" slide switch is present only as an inert bump on > the side. Could those be bogus? I was reading the spec recently, and was somewhat shocked to discover that SD does not have a write-protect switch. It has a movable thing which the host can sense (if the hardware for it is working right) and may choose to treat as a write-protect switch if it happens to feel like it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From martin at shackspace.de Wed Apr 25 13:13:48 2012 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:13:48 +0200 Subject: Prototype PCBs? In-Reply-To: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20120425181348.GA17571@helpdesk.bera.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> Jim Brain: > Anyone know an inexpensive source for prototype DIY circuit boards? > From time to time, I like to use them to prove out ideas, and I'm > running low on stock. Is it a commercial oder a hobbyist project? How many layers are needed? Some hackerspaces own pcb-prototyping equipment. Is there a hackerspace at your site? Probably they will produce some pcb's for a donnation. Or become a member und do it by yourself. Probably they also own a pick and place machine, a reflow oven, soldering equipment and a sortiment of electrical components. If there's one, you'll find the hackerspace next to you at hackerspaces.org btw: our small batch series are done by pcb-pool.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 13:14:53 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 14:14:53 -0400 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Adrian Stoness writes: > >> take forever and would be pretty expensive and the quality is not the best > > "pretty expensive"?!? > > I don't know why you guys keep saying 3D printer stuff is expensive > because all the people who operate them tell me that it's extremely > cheap. ?(Like a few cents to print a toggle switch.) ?There are at > least 3 in our maker group that have 3D printers. I have built several printers and organize activities and lecture on the topic. I am not a doomsayer - I think 3D printing is really cool and I am especially excited about under-$2K-USD models to get the technology into the hands of people like the members of this list. That said, it's not a magic bullet, it's not cheap as chips, but for the situations where it's a good fit, it's cheaper than many traditional manufacturing techniques including bypassing the mold-making costs of injection molding, the labor costs of traditional machining, and since shapes are freely shared on sites like Thingiverse, even sometimes bypassing the expense of skilled labor to design the parts in the first place. It fits a niche between one-off hand-made prototypes and true mass production. If you need exactly 1 or if you need thousands/millions, there are other ways to accomplish your task. If you want dozens or if you want minor customizations that don't map well to economies of scale, it can be a less expensive choice than endless engineering revisions. As for straight dollar cost per item, it depends entirely on the size of the object and the printing technology. Hobby-grade FDM (filament deposition modelling) printers are coarse but inexpensive. The filament is typically plastic welding rod in 3mm or 1.75mm diameters and can be purchased for as little as $12USD/lb. A toggle switch is indeed cheap, but because the output nozzle is about 0.3mm-0.5mm, it will have a coarse texture. Sintered powder printers produce smoother results for a higher cost (don't have exact numbers, but not $12/lb). Stereolithography produces very nice high-res results, but the resin costs $200 per *liter*. I just did some calculations for someone, and a solid badge 50mm x 50mm x 6mm (2"x2"x1/4") is about $3.50 USD just in resin. Hobby grade printers are also smaller than professional printers. I have some DEC papertape trays - they are about 8"x10" and hold several sets of papertape in partitioned bays. Mine are cast acrylic, though I think I may have seen some once made of vacuformed ABS with an acrylic lid. A hollow box with sidewalls at least 1mm thick and a floor at least 3mm thick (so that you have several layers of filaments to bond together for strength) that's 8"x10"x1" is going to weigh several ounces and won't fit on most hobby-grade printers. The MakerBot CupCake (somewhat common with several thousand made) has a 100mm^2 (4"x4") bed... too small. Various RepRap models can print up to about 200mm^2 (8"x8") - a bit smaller than the trays I've seen, but you might be able to make something work. I don't have a shape to run through my calculation tools, but based on the badge price, printing a tray with Stereolithography would run at least $30 in resin alone, and probably closer to $50. These are open-topped designs, BTW, a base, sides, and partition walls - it skips the problem of support material, etc., to allow printing a lid. Vacuforming a tray should cost no more than a few dollars each, once you have a tool large enough to pull a form around 8"x10". Oh... and I forgot slow... a medium-sized item, something that fits in the palm of your hand, can take 2 hrs to print on a hobby-grade FDM printer. Stereolithography often is rated as to how many millimeters per hour the part can "grow" (one entire layer is done as one action, so it matters little for printing time how extensive each layer is and matters greatly for how many total layers there are). I would budget several hours to print something 8"x10" on a RepRap. Each. It would be faster (but probably not cheaper) to CNC mill a tray out of a single block of plastic - HDPE (high density polyethylene) for example. Unfortunately, unless you are buying scrap, it's going to be many dollars for a slab of plastic that thick. Time-Cost-Quality - pick two. -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 13:52:10 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: kit one u can buy cost like 8k after shiping duties and options can be finiky already had the head melt down twice on it http://www.flickr.com/photos/assentworks/6110256050/in/photostream/lightbox/ this goes for 17-23k depending what extras u get one can lease them... http://www.flickr.com/photos/assentworks/6288589578/in/photostream/lightbox/ for making parts that can handle were one needs access to a pritty expensive unit... talking 100k plus From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 25 14:00:19 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F98149A.1030608@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> indeed what i was thinking of doing or trying to make my own molds and >> experiment with that. >> >> what hackerspace u belong to? > > The Columbus Idea Foundry - http://www.columbusideafoundry.com/ > > As to Gene's comment, we do have a 4'x8' Shopbot, but the smallest bit > we tend to run on it is 3/16" (4mm) to avoid snapping smaller bits. > I'm setting up a smaller (12"x12") CNC, but it's a ways out from being Ethan, stuff an ER25 collect in there sized for a 1/8" drill bit. Bang away. I do it all the time. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 13:22:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:22:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 104, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: <40bd12113fdfcbe3a9886be998f676a5@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 24, 12 02:28:51 pm Message-ID: > Now this is getting silly. There is no point in trying to say that what > Tony is seeing is wrong: unless he is psychotic he is actually observing I am very happy to accept that human observatiosn, even when not deliberately mis-represented can be unreliable [1]. However, I regard it is very foolish to discount things that I have observed (or believe I haev observed' based on 'This is the real version becuase I am telling you so' type messages. I have even less evidence that those are correct. > something that really has happened to him. And all that "I have this > fancy job in industry and I have signed lots of NDAs, so I am important, > while Tony is just a geek living with his parents" is a) rude and I haev long since ignored the insults here. I simmple remember a proverb we have in English. 'Empty vewssels make the msot noise'. > patronising and b) hiding behind these NDAs you claim to have signed. So > go out and find publically available research reports or whatever on the > Internet to prove your point, instead of trying to impress us with smoke > and mirrors. Exactly. I accept that reliability data is commercially sensitive, and of course, fi you agree to do something (or in this case not to do something -- not to reveal that data), then of course you must honour that. But without seeing the data, what it applies to, how it was obtained, how it was processed, etc, I ahve no reason whatsoever to accept anything based on it. Of course my sample is biased. But in a way, it's biased towards the sort of things I work on. I don't get to see infant mortality or production failure rates _but_ those don't affect me when I am repairing production machiens in the field. And for that matter , Iwould argue anybody's sample is biased for similar reasons. It applies to particular conditions (for example, failures in the pre-shipment testing). And without knowing what it applies to, the data is meaningless. > > However I think is probably right in one respect about modern > computers being more reliable: considering the complexity of a modern > $500 PC, it is probably much more reliable than anything made in the > '70s *at a corresponding price for the period*, i e today's cheap junk > is more reliable thatn cheap junk from the '70s and '80s. OTOH Tony is > also right that old computers were/are at least as reliable: they were > better made than today's cheap junk. There are 2 points here that I will comment on... Firstly /consideerign the complexity'. I think I stated very ewarly on that a VLSI IC is more reliable than making the same circuit out of MSI ICs (assuming you could) which, in turn, is more reliable than making the same circuit out of discretes. I doubt anyone disagrees with that. The point is 'same circuit'. That does not mean the same function. To give a silly example, you can flash an (LED + current limiting resistor) using a microcontroller. You can also do it with a 555 2 R';s and a C. Or with 2 transisitors, 3 more R's and 2 C's. It is not inheerrently obvious to me which of thos is goign to be the most relaibvle, it may depend on the sort of reliability you are considiering ('how many work driectly after production' .vs. h'ow many work after a year' .vs. 'how many are stil lworking after 25 years'). The second point is 'for the price'. PCs are very cheap for what htey do, I will agree with that. And to compare them against the DECs, HPs, etc of twety, thirty or forty years ago is unfair. However, the fact that a fair numbero f those machiens are still running, while there are capacitor provlems (say) on modern PC motehrboards does say somethign for the reliability of the older machines... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 13:26:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:26:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Arduino vs 555 reliability In-Reply-To: <201204242001.QAA03982@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 24, 12 04:01:25 pm Message-ID: > > > [...] about as useful as a gallium teaspoon, [...] > > That is a *delightful* comparsion! Thank you :-) > > Thank you for my afternoon's laugh. You mean I';ve not used it before here? I thought I had... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 13:35:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:35:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 24, 12 05:49:19 pm Message-ID: > Premium cables are effective (to a point) on analog systems, There are certainly some awful cables about, but in my experinece ]1] any good quality screedn cable is OK. The 'audiophool' cables do not make any diference. ]1] Ues, biased sample, personal opinion, etc. I have worked with measuring instruments which look at much smaller signals and have a much higehr resolution than any audio system. Not one of them uyses any 'audiophool' cable. Just normal cable and good desiggn practices. > though I think Monster very much oversells it and charges a lot > more than you can get equivalently good cables for. They also > have complete nonsense like "premium power cables", which are > bogus because if you have noisy power, nicer power cables are > just going to transmit the noise more accurately (though I'm > not convinced they make a difference at all). Firsly, what do you do about the miles of cable from the substation to your house, the electricity meter, fusebox, house wiring, etc ;-) Secondly, if the power cable makes a differneec to the sound or picture [2], then I would sguggest designign the pwoer supply proeprly (or fixing the faults in it) would be much more sensible than buying a special mains cable. [2] Other than the obvious thing that if you have no power cable you get no sound or picture :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 13:38:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:38:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <201204242208.q3OM8w8C12779700@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 24, 12 03:08:58 pm Message-ID: > > > The local 99 Cent store sells A-B USB cables for ... wait for it ... > > > 99.99 cents. (PRICE GOUGING!) > > > > How do they charge the fractional cents? > > They round up the total at the register. So it's really a way of charging > a dollar without actually doing so. If you buy 100 of them, do you get to pau $99.99? If not, I would class it as false advertising. Some of the electronic component suppliers I deal with do list compooents with prices involving fractional pennies, but they also have an 'order multiple' so you have to buy a mutliple of 5 (say). At which point the total price is an integer (and it's what you are charged). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 13:41:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:41:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F97268E.7020806@att.net> from "steve shumaker" at Apr 24, 12 03:17:50 pm Message-ID: > I don't know about the "A" model - this one was an "S"and yes, it is > still export restricted - that's the definition of a Demil Q class item Well, _this_ one has export restrictions from what you are saying, I doubt all 2100S's do. IIRC the techncial manuals and probably schematics for the machine are availalbe on th web with no restrictions (and with the blessign of HP). If there was really somethign secret about the machine itslef, the manuals would be a much quicker way to discover it. My guess is that, as others ahve said, it's a typicla government regulation... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 13:46:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:46:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F96E335.26212.2203022@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 24, 12 05:30:29 pm Message-ID: > > On 24 Apr 2012 at 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: > > > When I first read that, I thoguh you were talking about an endless > > loop tape drive that Sinclar used on the Spectrum and QL machines.. I > > wouldn't recomend those for anything... > > They stored 4GB ? Wow. It ws an endless loop tape. You could easily send 4GB to it, just don't excpect to get much of it back (perhaps the last 100k or so). In fact, given the reputation of these devices, don't expect to get any of it back. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 14:17:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:17:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP9836CU In-Reply-To: <006d01cd22db$7e768090$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> from "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 SISTEMI" at Apr 25, 12 02:03:25 pm Message-ID: > > I have an HP9836CU (series 9000/200) without monitor cable. I know it well.... > The computer seem to boot up, the monitor, when powered, has no > activity. That is correct. One of the pins on the DA15 connecotr on the comptuer is a 12V power ouptu. On the 9836A, it powers the monochtrome monitor. On the 9836C, it operate s a relay (actually a pair of relaus, for soem unknown reaosn) on the monitor PSU board, whcih conenct maisn to the rest fo the SMPSU. > The cable (15 pin Dsub male to male) is pin to pin ? all pin used ? It is pin-pin, I can't remembr if all pins are used (but read on...). I am pretty sure it was special cable, the 3 video signals were wires with (75 ohm?) coax, the other signals with just palin wires, Oh, and an overall screen. One source of a suitable cable may be the stuff used in the UK (and Europe) to make the batter tupes of SCART lead, I think you van buy that by the metre over here. > I'm going to build the cable, but I'm not sure about pinout > There is a service manual with circuit diagrams ? > I've found only the manual on the HP Australian museum, but is a board > level manual. The official service manuals is a boardsapper guide, but there is a useful appendix giving the pinotus of the conenctors. There are a few errors in it though (in partciluar, the pinotu for the quad screedn cable that links the output conenctor on the video board (under the LH disk drive) to the conenctor on the mothrboard (and thense to the DA15 socket) is clearly nonsense. There should be a set of my schematics o nthe same site. They may well be under the HP9826, the 2 machines are closely related so I preodcued one set of diagrams to cover the lot. Said diagrams cover the 9826, 9836A (mono) and 9836C (colour) machines and monitors, and all the CPU boards I've seen, including the 68010 + MMU board in mu 9836CU. I didn't waste time and incldue the video cable itself, but there are diagrams for the motherboard and the monitor backplane which give the conenctions of the DA15 sockets. Let me know if you need any help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 13:53:51 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:53:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: audiophools, In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Apr 25, 12 00:26:26 am Message-ID: > I'll say. The kind that can buy into a phrase like "Cryogenic > processing renders the Reference-II absolutely grainless." > > I read that as "brainless" at first, and I still think that's > what they meant. There were some classics sold (?) over here. Like 'carpet earthing clips', of which yuu must always use an odd number so that more charge runs away than comes back. Or electret foils. I have no problem with the existance of electret foil, or indeed of its use in audio (microphones). Butsticking an odd number of trianges cut from it on your record turntable, pointing in the direction of rotation would, IMHO, make no improvement tot the sound. Or cuttint the corner off your amplifier front panel (appearmetn and odd number of corners sounds better). And we all rememebr the green pen :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 25 14:22:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:22:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: from "Sander Reiche" at Apr 25, 12 05:23:17 pm Message-ID: > > It would be pretty trivial to build a vacuum forming mold and use > ABS plastic... > > > Could you elaborate on this? Maybe a website with this procedure > explained for unenlightened people in the World of Plastics(tm)? There was/is a book, soemthing like 'How to build a pastic vacuum-forming machine'. I am pretty sure the author was one of the Gingerys and that it was bulished by Lindsay Books. The device is vey much home-made using cooker elements, etc. I am not sure if it would do for making thse trays (and I've not made one -- yet), but it would give you an idea of what's involved I think. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 25 14:33:15 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:33:15 -0700 Subject: paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: <20120418120117.GB17171@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F0233BB@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <20120420110441.R43002@shell.lmi.net> <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F024058@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <09db01cd22eb$f3fa2b90$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F98517B.7040301@brouhaha.com> Adrian Stoness wrote: > kit one u can buy cost like 8k after shiping duties and options can be > finiky already had the head melt down twice on it > http://www.flickr.com/photos/assentworks/6110256050/in/photostream/lightbox/ Kits vary considerably in capabilities and quality, and of course the quality is also affected by the skill of the person assembly the kit. There are sub-$2500 kits that can produce fairly decent output, though generally not comparable to the commercial printers. > > for making parts that can handle were one needs access to a pritty > expensive unit... talking 100k plus No, there are commercial ones in the $25K range that produce high-quality ABS parts. The problem isn't the cost of the printer, but rather, the cost of the materials. They do the same things that some inkjet printer vendors do (or used to do) to keep you from refilling the printer cartridges. For example, each cartridge has a chip with a unique ID and a record of how much material is believed to be in the cartridge. The printer updates that record, and will not use the cartridge if it thinks it should be empty. That wouldn't be too difficult to circumvent, except that the printer also maintains an internal database of all of the cartridges it has used, and how much material it thinks should be present in them. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 25 15:16:47 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 13:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 25, 12 07:38:31 pm" Message-ID: <201204252016.q3PKGln312583070@floodgap.com> > > > > The local 99 Cent store sells A-B USB cables for ... wait for it ... > > > > 99.99 cents. (PRICE GOUGING!) > > > > > > How do they charge the fractional cents? > > > > They round up the total at the register. So it's really a way of charging > > a dollar without actually doing so. > > If you buy 100 of them, do you get to pau $99.99? If not, I would class > it as false advertising. If I bought a hundred of those crummy cables, I would pay the extra cent because I WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY A HUNDRED OF THOSE CRUMMY CABLES, and therefore my math must be suspect as well ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -- Isaac Asimov ---------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 15:21:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 13:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120425131937.V22484@shell.lmi.net> > > > > The local 99 Cent store sells A-B USB cables for ... wait for it ... > > > > 99.99 cents. (PRICE GOUGING!) > > > How do they charge the fractional cents? > > They round up the total at the register. So it's really a way of charging > > a dollar without actually doing so. On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > If you buy 100 of them, do you get to pau $99.99? If not, I would class > it as false advertising. NO. They do NOT. (PRICE GOUGING!) But, their audio cables saound as good to me as Monster ones. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 15:24:07 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 21:24:07 +0100 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F965D43.22933.14F962@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com> <4F96B213.1030206@gmail.com> <4F965D43.22933.14F962@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 24 April 2012 15:58, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Apr 2012 at 9:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> ~90KB of storage and prone to tape stretch? ;-) >> >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Microdrive) > > Reminds me of the Datasonix Pereos that attempted to get 1GB on a > Sony NT microcassette. ?I wonder if any backups have survived? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NT_%28cassette%29 > > http://homepage3.nifty.com/kenk/imx/ndc-04.jpg Oh my yes, those things! I remember those. I think we reviewed one in PC Pro. My colleague Dick Pountain - an experienced "elder statesman" of IT - thought it sounded great and bought one. I do not believe he stayed delighted for all that long, but at first, he thought it was great. He could carry around a gig in his pocket, which in 1995 or so was pretty impressive - a big modern hard disk then was around a gig. The best one, which most of our review machines had, was the Quantum Fireball 1200. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 25 16:26:05 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 23:26:05 +0200 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F97BB31.5060101@brouhaha.com> References: <081d01cd2096$fd696b20$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F94FCB3.5070404@brouhaha.com> <20120425085113.33b03316.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4F97BB31.5060101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120425232605.a26a3400.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 01:52:01 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: > > Unfortunately reading the contents of a cell draws a few electrons of > > its charge. > I'd be interested in references for that "draws a few electrons" is simplified. Its about what a colleague at work explained to me. He cares about the SD cards we build into our products. We where bitten by this problem when we evaluated a new type of high capacity MicroSD card. He can't be more speciffic due to NDAs, probably the same you signed too... Still: (Most) SD cards are _not_ a reliable, long term storage medium. IIRC that colleague talked about special "industrial grade" SD cards. They are guaranteed to be robust and reliable as old fashined NOR Flash. But they are expensive and have less capacity. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Apr 25 16:53:33 2012 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:23:33 +0930 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 02:03:38 PM David Riley wrote: > On the other hand, perhaps this is a product line secretly designed to > accelerate natural selection: > > http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/power_outlets > > > - Dave Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube sound. http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm Alexis. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 17:30:33 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 18:30:33 -0400 Subject: audiophools, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > And we all rememebr the green pen :-) I think I trolled someone with that last year. I kept them on the hook until my better nature gave in and I sent them a URL explaining the gag. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 17:31:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:31:09 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: , <4F965D43.22933.14F962@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F9818BD.29160.15F07D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2012 at 21:24, Liam Proven wrote: > I do not believe he stayed delighted for all that long, but at first, > he thought it was great. He could carry around a gig in his pocket, > which in 1995 or so was pretty impressive - a big modern hard disk > then was around a gig. The best one, which most of our review machines > had, was the Quantum Fireball 1200. Oh, not the JTS 1.0GB IDE drive? (snicker) --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 17:33:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:33:51 -0700 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <201204252016.q3PKGln312583070@floodgap.com> References: from Tony Duell at "Apr 25, 12 07:38:31 pm", <201204252016.q3PKGln312583070@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F98195F.18537.16180E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2012 at 13:16, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > If I bought a hundred of those crummy cables, I would pay the extra > cent because I WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY A HUNDRED OF THOSE CRUMMY > CABLES, and therefore my math must be suspect as well ;) If you were to buy a hundred, I suspect that they'd lower the price to 49.99 cents each. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 18:09:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 16:09:33 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <20120424195543.M96068@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F96E335.26212.2203022@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120424195543.M96068@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9821BD.3321.1822E3E@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2012 at 19:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > Depending on the file structure, you could RECORD infinite amounts in > that continuous loop. But you had no chance of reading back anything > that wasn't on that last pass through the loop. If that was the case, why didn't they go with state of the art in 1972 and use the Signetics 25120 memory chip? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 25 18:32:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 16:32:31 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F9821BD.3321.1822E3E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F96E335.26212.2203022@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120424195543.M96068@shell.lmi.net> <4F9821BD.3321.1822E3E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F98898F.8050208@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If that was the case, why didn't they go with state of the art in 1972 > and use the Signetics 25120 memory chip? --Chuck Probably due to the inconvenience of needing 6.3Vac for the Vff supply. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 25 18:41:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 16:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <4F98195F.18537.16180E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: from Tony Duell at "Apr 25, 12 07:38:31 pm", <201204252016.q3PKGln312583070@floodgap.com> <4F98195F.18537.16180E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120425164005.L28917@shell.lmi.net> > > If I bought a hundred of those crummy cables, I would pay the extra > > cent because I WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY A HUNDRED OF THOSE CRUMMY > > CABLES, and therefore my math must be suspect as well ;) On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you were to buy a hundred, I suspect that they'd lower the price > to 49.99 cents each. "The 99 cent store" is a large chain. They don't negotiate. There is nobody present in the store who could do the math. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 19:42:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:42:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <9F4A87A9-66B9-4A18-A8DF-18314B700AFD@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you > apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube > sound. > > http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm I sure hope that's made with organic snake oil. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 25 19:48:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 17:48:16 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F98898F.8050208@brouhaha.com> References: <4F956E3C.32208.168A6A9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9821BD.3321.1822E3E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F98898F.8050208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F9838E0.4673.1DC8FF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2012 at 16:32, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If that was the case, why didn't they go with state of the art in > > 1972 and use the Signetics 25120 memory chip? --Chuck > > Probably due to the inconvenience of needing 6.3Vac for the Vff > supply. I'd imagine that 5VDC for Vff will work if you simply derate the capacity by about 17 percent and periodically swap the polarity of the supply using a DPDT switch (after all, they didn't specify the minimum frequency of the AC). --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 19:55:42 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 21:55:42 -0300 Subject: Audiophilia References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <0fcd01cd2347$5f99d660$6600a8c0@tababook> > Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating > you > apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube > sound. > http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm LMAO. :oD From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 20:28:48 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 21:28:48 -0400 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? Message-ID: This is vintage for certain values of vintage, but I suppose this is as good a forum to ask as any. I suspect it's a little too new/esoteric for most people here, since it's really only about 5 years old, but it's right before the series went downhill, which is certainly a common enough topic of discussion around here. :-) I have two NIB (sealed) copies of Filemaker Pro 6, one for Windows and one for Mac. I additionally have one opened upgrade copy of Pro 7, but to my recollection it hasn't actually been used (because we didn't realize it was an upgrade before we opened the box). All should be 100% legal and ethical to use. Anyone want? Free to a good home. Pro 6 was a nice version of Filemaker, 7 maybe slightly less so. - Dave From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 25 20:30:33 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 18:30:33 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <9F4A87A9-66B9-4A18-A8DF-18314B700AFD@gmail.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <9F4A87A9-66B9-4A18-A8DF-18314B700AFD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 25, at 5:42 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 25, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > >> Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a >> coating you >> apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it >> a tube >> sound. >> >> http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm > > I sure hope that's made with organic snake oil. Melts away fat, too. Every few years I see what's happening in the audiophool arena. It seems to be getting worse, not better. Another portent of the end of civilisation as we know it? From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 21:08:47 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 22:08:47 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CF76E1E-502B-4529-A3E0-CF494DD21C97@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2012, at 2:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Premium cables are effective (to a point) on analog systems, > > There are certainly some awful cables about, but in my experinece ]1] any > good quality screedn cable is OK. The 'audiophool' cables do not make any > diference. I should clarify. When I say "premium", I mean "costing more than a dollar". I've had lots of easily verifiably nasty results from using cables the width of shoestring, but it's not because of lack of "cryogenically-treated, oxygen-free copper", it's just from a lack of copper; they might as well have threaded a strand of magnet wire through a rubber tube for all that's in there. No effective EMI shielding to speak of, either. That does make a difference. >> though I think Monster very much oversells it and charges a lot >> more than you can get equivalently good cables for. They also >> have complete nonsense like "premium power cables", which are >> bogus because if you have noisy power, nicer power cables are >> just going to transmit the noise more accurately (though I'm >> not convinced they make a difference at all). > > Firsly, what do you do about the miles of cable from the substation to > your house, the electricity meter, fusebox, house wiring, etc ;-) One of my friends, who is a professional recording engineer, always points out to me that the audiophiles would just die if they saw the types of cables that were actually used to *record* a lot of their vaunted classics. > Secondly, if the power cable makes a differneec to the sound or picture > [2], then I would sguggest designign the pwoer supply proeprly (or > fixing the faults in it) would be much more sensible than buying a special > mains cable. Lots of consumer equipment has crappy power supplies that won't filter out e.g. conducted emissions from other crappy power supplies on the mains line. Audiophile equipment is probably no exception, largely because they don't often know what they're doing and instead rely on their mythical "non-microphonic capacitors" to clean things up. Unsurprisingly, that doesn't work. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 25 21:13:44 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <9F4A87A9-66B9-4A18-A8DF-18314B700AFD@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Apr 25, 12 08:42:21 pm" Message-ID: <201204260213.q3Q2Di1Q15007958@floodgap.com> > > apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube > > sound. > > > > http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm > > I sure hope that's made with organic snake oil. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's made from rosewood. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You only live twice. ------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 25 21:59:28 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:59:28 -0700 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:28 PM -0400 4/25/12, David Riley wrote: >I have two NIB (sealed) copies of Filemaker Pro 6, one for >Windows and one for Mac. I additionally have one opened Unfortunately it appears it won't work on Mac OS X 10.7. I've been using FileMaker Pro since '95, but have only run two versions in that time. I bought v2.1, and later upgraded to v5.5, which won't run on 10.7. It's also one of two reasons I'm still on 10.6.8. Sadly FileMaker, just like most of the industry, has gotten really crappy about their upgrade policies. I'll probably end up dumping my databases and importing them into an Open Source db of some sort. Some of these db's have been bouncing around on my systems since dBase III on my Kaypro 2000 back in the 80's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 25 22:11:21 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 25, 12 07:59:28 pm" Message-ID: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> > Unfortunately it appears it won't work on Mac OS X 10.7. I've been > using FileMaker Pro since '95, but have only run two versions in that > time. I bought v2.1, and later upgraded to v5.5, which won't run on > 10.7. It's also one of two reasons I'm still on 10.6.8. Sadly > FileMaker, just like most of the industry, has gotten really crappy > about their upgrade policies. Pretty sure 7 was never Universal, was it? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Put down your guns, it's Weasel Stomping Day! ------------------------------ From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 22:25:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 23:25:04 -0400 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:11 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Unfortunately it appears it won't work on Mac OS X 10.7. I've been >> using FileMaker Pro since '95, but have only run two versions in that >> time. I bought v2.1, and later upgraded to v5.5, which won't run on >> 10.7. It's also one of two reasons I'm still on 10.6.8. Sadly >> FileMaker, just like most of the industry, has gotten really crappy >> about their upgrade policies. > > Pretty sure 7 was never Universal, was it? No, don't think so; it's the first non-Classic version, though. I recall that it predated the Intel transition by quite a bit, and 8 was the version that offered Universal capability (and pre-packaged apps, which were kind of cute but never really worked that well). 6 is the last version I'd use with any willingness. 7 started a long decline, and I gave up even trying after 8. Maybe their newer stuff is nicer, but I tried using Bento a few years ago to do up the envelopes for our wedding invitations, and wrote off the effort after just an hour or so trying to get it to do anything useful. - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 25 22:51:43 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:51:43 -0700 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:25 PM -0400 4/25/12, David Riley wrote: >On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:11 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> Unfortunately it appears it won't work on Mac OS X 10.7. I've been >>> using FileMaker Pro since '95, but have only run two versions in that >>> time. I bought v2.1, and later upgraded to v5.5, which won't run on >>> 10.7. It's also one of two reasons I'm still on 10.6.8. Sadly >>> FileMaker, just like most of the industry, has gotten really crappy >>> about their upgrade policies. >> >> Pretty sure 7 was never Universal, was it? > >No, don't think so; it's the first non-Classic version, though. I >recall that it predated the Intel transition by quite a bit, and 8 >was the version that offered Universal capability (and pre-packaged >apps, which were kind of cute but never really worked that well). > >6 is the last version I'd use with any willingness. 7 started a >long decline, and I gave up even trying after 8. Maybe their >newer stuff is nicer, but I tried using Bento a few years ago to >do up the envelopes for our wedding invitations, and wrote off >the effort after just an hour or so trying to get it to do >anything useful. That's a really depressing assessment. Having started with a couple versions of PC:File, then dBase III, and finally dBase IV, I found FileMaker Pro v2.1 to be really nice. The only reason I upgraded to v5.5 was to be compatible with the FileMaker application that ran on my Sony Clie (Palm Pilot clone). Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm not sure how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 23:17:51 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 00:17:51 -0400 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <237AE5E3-20CD-4A39-8399-3AD678A4B87E@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:25 PM -0400 4/25/12, David Riley wrote: >> >> 6 is the last version I'd use with any willingness. 7 started a >> long decline, and I gave up even trying after 8. Maybe their >> newer stuff is nicer, but I tried using Bento a few years ago to >> do up the envelopes for our wedding invitations, and wrote off >> the effort after just an hour or so trying to get it to do >> anything useful. > > That's a really depressing assessment. Having started with a couple versions of PC:File, then dBase III, and finally dBase IV, I found FileMaker Pro v2.1 to be really nice. The only reason I upgraded to v5.5 was to be compatible with the FileMaker application that ran on my Sony Clie (Palm Pilot clone). Well, Bento is their "dumbed down" version that's supposed to make it easy for dumb people to use databases. Basically, it's FileMaker Access. Every company seems to try to make a crippled version of their flagship product for the Great Unwashed Masses; for example, Apple calls theirs Mac OS Lion. I liked 6 a lot, though. To me, it's one of those Last Great Versions you see of things, like Word 5.1 or Marathon 2. > Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm not sure how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. FileMaker is great at what it's good at. The only reason I have these is for a job I did for a guy who ran a currency-handling equipment sales and service shop. He ran his entire parts database out of a system of 5 interlinked FileMaker databases, and it worked great up through version 6. His entire office staff could use it pretty easily. Then came 7, and the database format changed, and they made you change the way you link databases so his old stuff didn't work. That wasn't long before he decided to sell off the business, and I'm not 100% sure it was totally coincidental. - Dave From doug at doughq.com Wed Apr 25 17:52:49 2012 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:52:49 +1000 Subject: audiophools, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I saw a beauty the other day. At a house of a friend of mine was a cable owned by one of his housemates... It was one of those massive 1" thick power cables with OCF copper etc, with a US plug on one end, and a IEC socket on the other. The build quality was amazing. The pretty braided cloth just looked like a million bucks. Sadly, it was pluged into one of those cheap $2 US / AU plug converters...... I didn't get the chance to ask its owner whether he felt that the sound from his amp was better, or whether it was simply a better cord for his kettle. :-) Doug On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 8:30 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Tony Duell > wrote: > > And we all rememebr the green pen :-) > > I think I trolled someone with that last year. I kept them on the > hook until my better nature gave in and I sent them a URL explaining > the gag. > > -ethan > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 02:51:14 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:51:14 +0100 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F98FE72.9050204@gmail.com> On 26/04/2012 04:51, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:25 PM -0400 4/25/12, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:11 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>> Unfortunately it appears it won't work on Mac OS X 10.7. I've been >>>> using FileMaker Pro since '95, but have only run two versions in that >>>> time. I bought v2.1, and later upgraded to v5.5, which won't run on >>>> 10.7. It's also one of two reasons I'm still on 10.6.8. Sadly >>>> FileMaker, just like most of the industry, has gotten really crappy >>>> about their upgrade policies. >>> >>> Pretty sure 7 was never Universal, was it? >> >> No, don't think so; it's the first non-Classic version, though. I >> recall that it predated the Intel transition by quite a bit, and 8 >> was the version that offered Universal capability (and pre-packaged >> apps, which were kind of cute but never really worked that well). >> >> 6 is the last version I'd use with any willingness. 7 started a >> long decline, and I gave up even trying after 8. Maybe their >> newer stuff is nicer, but I tried using Bento a few years ago to >> do up the envelopes for our wedding invitations, and wrote off >> the effort after just an hour or so trying to get it to do >> anything useful. > > That's a really depressing assessment. Having started with a couple > versions of PC:File, then dBase III, and finally dBase IV, I found > FileMaker Pro v2.1 to be really nice. The only reason I upgraded to > v5.5 was to be compatible with the FileMaker application that ran on > my Sony Clie (Palm Pilot clone). > > Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm not > sure how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. > > Zane > > > I recently had problems with Filemaker Pro V3 on windows. It does not seem to like disks larger than 120GB. A friend still runs his Ham Call Sign database on Filemaker Pro and I was wondered if it was possible to get one copy of the later version. I am in the UK and want it for a friend who keeps his Ham call book in a Filemaker Pro and is keeping an old laptop running mainly for Filemaker Pro. Dave G4UGM From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Apr 26 05:53:41 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 11:53:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fujitsu Super-Eagle SMD-drive documents Message-ID: <1335437621.78448.YahooMailNeo@web29102.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, does anybody have documents related to the Super-Eagle drives made by Fujitsu (Model M2361A)? Documents for the predecesor (namely Eagle, M2351A) have been around for quite some time on bitsavers.org, but strangely, though the Super-Eagles are not that rare, no online-versions of its decuments are around. The Super-Eagle is different in certain aspects compared to the Eagle, so using the Eagle-documents is not a solution. One of my drives to be used with a PDP 11/24 via an Emulex-Controller turns off itself 2 seconds after turing it on and I'l like to find the reason for that some day. Documents are usually of great help here :) Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 26 07:22:37 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:22:37 -0400 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: <237AE5E3-20CD-4A39-8399-3AD678A4B87E@gmail.com> References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> <237AE5E3-20CD-4A39-8399-3AD678A4B87E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F993E0D.9060002@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/04/12 12:17 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At 11:25 PM -0400 4/25/12, David Riley wrote: >>> >>> 6 is the last version I'd use with any willingness. 7 started a >>> long decline, and I gave up even trying after 8. Maybe their >>> newer stuff is nicer, but I tried using Bento a few years ago to >>> do up the envelopes for our wedding invitations, and wrote off >>> the effort after just an hour or so trying to get it to do >>> anything useful. >> >> That's a really depressing assessment. Having started with a couple versions of PC:File, then dBase III, and finally dBase IV, I found FileMaker Pro v2.1 to be really nice. The only reason I upgraded to v5.5 was to be compatible with the FileMaker application that ran on my Sony Clie (Palm Pilot clone). > > Well, Bento is their "dumbed down" version that's supposed to > make it easy for dumb people to use databases. Basically, it's > FileMaker Access. Every company seems to try to make a crippled > version of their flagship product for the Great Unwashed Masses; > for example, Apple calls theirs Mac OS Lion. > > I liked 6 a lot, though. To me, it's one of those Last Great > Versions you see of things, like Word 5.1 or Marathon 2. > >> Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm not sure how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. > > FileMaker is great at what it's good at. The only reason I have > these is for a job I did for a guy who ran a currency-handling > equipment sales and service shop. He ran his entire parts database > out of a system of 5 interlinked FileMaker databases, and it worked > great up through version 6. His entire office staff could use it > pretty easily. Then came 7, and the database format changed, and So why upgrade? (See VAX on reddit thread) --Toby > they made you change the way you link databases so his old stuff > didn't work. That wasn't long before he decided to sell off the > business, and I'm not 100% sure it was totally coincidental. > > > - Dave > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 07:35:39 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:35:39 -0400 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: <4F993E0D.9060002@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> <237AE5E3-20CD-4A39-8399-3AD678A4B87E@gmail.com> <4F993E0D.9060002@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2012, at 8:22, Toby Thain wrote: >> FileMaker is great at what it's good at. The only reason I have >> these is for a job I did for a guy who ran a currency-handling >> equipment sales and service shop. He ran his entire parts database >> out of a system of 5 interlinked FileMaker databases, and it worked >> great up through version 6. His entire office staff could use it >> pretty easily. Then came 7, and the database format changed, and > > So why upgrade? > > (See VAX on reddit thread) That's what I said. I'm not sure he understood the question. - Dave From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Apr 26 07:51:33 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:51:33 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <9F4A87A9-66B9-4A18-A8DF-18314B700AFD@gmail.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <9F4A87A9-66B9-4A18-A8DF-18314B700AFD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120426125133.GX16929@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * David Riley [120425 20:43]: > On Apr 25, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > > > Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you > > apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube > > sound. > > > > http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm > > I sure hope that's made with organic snake oil. > > - Dave > Free range. Todd From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 26 09:42:17 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm not sure > how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. > They have a cure for that now. It's called Multi-Value and it will set you FREEEEEEEEEEeeeee11111!!!oneone. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 26 09:55:36 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:55:36 -0700 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 7:42 AM -0700 4/26/12, Gene Buckle wrote: >On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm >>not sure how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. >> >They have a cure for that now. It's called Multi-Value and it will >set you FREEEEEEEEEEeeeee11111!!!oneone. :) > >g. If this is the effect it has on people, I'll stick with SQL. :-) Multi-Value sounds like it might be related to what I dealt with as a DBA on a Honeywell DPS-8. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 10:09:39 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 11:09:39 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120426125133.GX16929@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <69E608FF-A7A9-47A6-8E38-5A9ADF549C64@gmail.com> <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <9F4A87A9-66B9-4A18-A8DF-18314B700AFD@gmail.com> <20120426125133.GX16929@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <4F996533.4000104@gmail.com> Todd Goodman wrote: >>> Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you >>> apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube >>> sound. >>> >>> http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm >> >> I sure hope that's made with organic snake oil. > > Free range. Uhh... applicated? Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 26 10:25:12 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:42 AM -0700 4/26/12, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm not >>> sure how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. >>> >> They have a cure for that now. It's called Multi-Value and it will set you >> FREEEEEEEEEEeeeee11111!!!oneone. :) >> >> g. > > If this is the effect it has on people, I'll stick with SQL. :-) Multi-Value > sounds like it might be related to what I dealt with as a DBA on a Honeywell > DPS-8. Check out http://www.openqm.com or http://www.scarletdme.org - Once you get into a good MVDB, you'll wonder why you ever wasted a minute bashing your brain into a pulp against SQL. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 26 11:19:15 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 09:19:15 -0700 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 25, 2012, at 7:59 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:28 PM -0400 4/25/12, David Riley wrote: >> I have two NIB (sealed) copies of Filemaker Pro 6, one for >> Windows and one for Mac. I additionally have one opened > > Unfortunately it appears it won't work on Mac OS X 10.7. I've been > using FileMaker Pro since '95, but have only run two versions in that > time. I bought v2.1, and later upgraded to v5.5, which won't run on > 10.7. It's also one of two reasons I'm still on 10.6.8. Sadly > FileMaker, just like most of the industry, has gotten really crappy > about their upgrade policies. > > I'll probably end up dumping my databases and importing them into an > Open Source db of some sort. Some of these db's have been bouncing > around on my systems since dBase III on my Kaypro 2000 back in the > 80's. I ran into this with Quicken for the Mac. They hadn't produced an Intel version (except for the abysmal Quicken Essentials for Mac?don't get me started). I knew about this problem with 10.7* and finally ended up creating a VM to run 10.6.x whose only job was to run Quicken. After all of the outcry, Intuit *finally* produced an Intel native version of Quicken for Mac 2007. * I tried all sorts of different personal accounting SW and none of them met my needs except for Quicken. I even went so far as to get Quicken 2011 for Windows and went to import my data (going back to '95). I'm amazed that two products from the same company (that are supposedly solving the same problem?just on 2 different OS's) were so incompatible. After many hours on the phone with support (most of that with level 3?who aren't supposed to be dummies) it was deemed impossible! At one point I did manage to get the transactions imported, but all 8000+ transactions had the same date?not particularly useful! *sigh* TTFN - Guy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 26 13:40:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:40:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 25, 12 06:30:33 pm Message-ID: > Every few years I see what's happening in the audiophool arena. It > seems to be getting worse, not better. Another portent of the end of > civilisation as we know it? It would eb amusing if only people didn't believe it... I always find looking at the manuals to be instructive. The manual for a modern radio tuner I looked at had many pages on how to use the controls. And that was it. The manual for my old tuner has 1 page on how to connected it up and how to use the single control (RF tuning). It then has a dozen pages on how to align the thing (which requries a calibrated signal generator and a double-beam 'scope). Follwed by parts lists, chassis photographs showing the position of all the components, and, of course, a scheamtic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 26 13:46:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:46:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <7CF76E1E-502B-4529-A3E0-CF494DD21C97@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 25, 12 10:08:47 pm Message-ID: > > On Apr 25, 2012, at 2:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Premium cables are effective (to a point) on analog systems, > > > > There are certainly some awful cables about, but in my experinece ]1] any > > good quality screedn cable is OK. The 'audiophool' cables do not make any > > diference. > > I should clarify. When I say "premium", I mean "costing more than > a dollar". I've had lots of easily verifiably nasty results from > using cables the width of shoestring, but it's not because of lack > of "cryogenically-treated, oxygen-free copper", it's just from a > lack of copper; they might as well have threaded a strand of magnet > wire through a rubber tube for all that's in there. No effective > EMI shielding to speak of, either. That does make a difference. Yes, there are good physcal lreasons to agree with that :-) One of the similar shops over here (I think it's 'Sam's 99p store' sells telephoen extension cabels. The cores of the cable are each 3 strands of some very springy wire, it doesn't feel like copper to me .On the other hand, you can solder it, and such cables are the cheapest source I've found for in-line telehpoen sockets (useful for all sorts of applications. I will admit I've bought that '79 strand' speaker cable. But only because it's a nice, flexible cable with a decent current rating. Not for any 'magic' reasons. > > Secondly, if the power cable makes a differneec to the sound or picture > > [2], then I would sguggest designign the pwoer supply proeprly (or > > fixing the faults in it) would be much more sensible than buying a special > > mains cable. > > Lots of consumer equipment has crappy power supplies that won't > filter out e.g. conducted emissions from other crappy power supplies > on the mains line. Audiophile equipment is probably no exception, As I said, design the PSU properly and you'll find the mains lead makes no differnce. > largely because they don't often know what they're doing and instead > rely on their mythical "non-microphonic capacitors" to clean things > up. Unsurprisingly, that doesn't work. I do wonder why modern domestic audio equipment doesn't have balanced inputs nad outputs. Doing so would have added a lot of complexity when using vavles,, but with op-amps it's trivial. And that would be a serious way to reduce common-mode effects (like earth loops). But then I can;t expect Audiophools to understand engineering... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 26 13:19:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:19:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP9836CU In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 25, 12 08:17:11 pm Message-ID: > > > > > I have an HP9836CU (series 9000/200) without monitor cable. > > I know it well.... Althoguh there were a few things I forgot (!) to mention last night... > > > The computer seem to boot up, the monitor, when powered, has no > > activity. > > That is correct. One of the pins on the DA15 connector on the computer is > a 12V power ouptu. On the 9836A, it powers the monochrome monitor. On > the 9836C, it operate s a relay (actually a pair of relaus, for soem > unknown reaosn) on the monitor PSU board, which conencts mains to the rest > of the SMPSU. There's a bit more to it than that. There's a power transsitor (Q15, TIP41A) on the PSU board. The emitter goes to the relay coils (and then to logic groudn), the base goes to this 12V power output from the computer and the collector goes to the power supply rail for the chopper control circuitry. When the PSU is not running, this transitor acts like a couple of diodes. It passes the 12V from the comptuer to the relay coils (b-e junction), turning on the mains. It also passes the 12V to the chopper control IC (via the b-c junction). The chopper controller starts up, the choppers chop (if you see what I mean), and the PSU produces the correct output voltages. One of these ouptuts (about 15V I think) then powers the chopper control circuit. At this point, the transisotr acts like a conventional emitter follwoer, powering the relay from this PSU output, controleld by the computer 13V line. When the comptuer turns off, the relays are thus de-energised and the whole thing shuts down. One neice feature of this supply is that the chopper control IC is on the isolated (output) side, the outputs are coupled by pulse transformers ot the chopper transsistors. It's a relativeily benign PSU to work on. > > > The cable (15 pin Dsub male to male) is pin to pin ? all pin used ? > > It is pin-pin, I can't remember if all pins are used (but read on...). I > am pretty sure it was special cable, the 3 video signals were wires with > (75 ohm?) coax, the other signals with just plain wires, Oh, and an > overall screen. One source of a suitable cable may be the stuff used in > the UK (and Europe) to make the batter types of SCART lead, I think you > can buy that by the metre over here. > > > I'm going to build the cable, but I'm not sure about pinout Here's the pinout : 1 : Blue ground (screen of cable for pin 9) 2 : Green groudn (screen of cable for pin 10) 3 : Logic ground (not used) 4 : Logic ground 5 : -12V from computer (not used) 6 : Logic ground 7 : +12V from computer (PSU switching/startup) 8 : Overall screen ground 9 : Blue signal (wire with coax, screen to pin 1) 10 : Green signal (wire with coax, screen to pin 2) 11 : Horizontal sync 12 : Red signal (wire with coax, screen to pin 13) 13 : Red ground (screen of cable on pin 12) 14 : Vertical blanking 15 : Vertical sync You don't have to wire pins 3 and 5, but it doesn't hurt if you do. All other pins must be wired straight-through, note commentso n screens (shields) etc. > > There is a service manual with circuit diagrams ? > > I've found only the manual on the HP Australian museum, but is a board > > level manual. > > The official service manuals is a boardsapper guide, but there is a > useful appendix giving the pinotus of the conenctors. There are a few > errors in it though (in partciluar, the pinotu for the quad screedn cable > that links the output conenctor on the video board (under the LH disk > drive) to the conenctor on the mothrboard (and thense to the DA15 socket) > is clearly nonsense. > > There should be a set of my schematics on the same site. They may well be > under the HP9826, the 2 machines are closely related so I preodcued one It seeemd ot be there (under HP9826) when I checked earlier. Of course, I never need to look at them there, I haev a copy of the 'originals' for my workbench. > set of diagrams to cover the lot. Said diagrams cover the 9826, 9836A > (mono) and 9836C (colour) machines and monitors, and all the CPU boards > I've seen, including the 68010 + MMU board in mu 9836CU. Note there are 2 'page 3s' for the 9836 motherbord. They are electrically the same (same point are ocnencted) but he signals are different because hte graphics boards are different. You want ot look at the one that says 'HP9836C' (not 'HP9836A'). In general, anything that says 'HP9826/HP9836' applies to all amchinees, or at least could do (like CPU boards, disk cotnroller, PSU, etc). 'HP9836' means eitehr all HP9836s (mono or colour) or just monochrome ones, it should be obvious. 'HP9836C' is colour machines only. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 26 13:26:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:26:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> from "Alexis Kotlowy" at Apr 26, 12 07:23:33 am Message-ID: > Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you > apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube > sound. > > http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 26 13:32:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:32:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F98898F.8050208@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 25, 12 04:32:31 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If that was the case, why didn't they go with state of the art in 1972 > > and use the Signetics 25120 memory chip? --Chuck > > Probably due to the inconvenience of needing 6.3Vac for the Vff supply. Why does Vff have to be AC? Surely it's the rms vlaue that really matters, so 6.3V DC would be OK too [1]. And IIRC the unregulated output of the mains adapter was on the expanison connector of the Speccy, so you could use that with a dropping resistor. [1] Vff = 6.3V nearly always implies an indrectly-heated cathode, so the polarity and whether it's AC or DC make very little difference. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 26 15:14:56 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Apr 26, 12 07:42:17 am" Message-ID: <201204262014.q3QKEuCG12189730@floodgap.com> > > Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm not sure > > how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. > > They have a cure for that now. It's called Multi-Value and it will set > you FREEEEEEEEEEeeeee11111!!!oneone. :) OH NO! Pick users! AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! ;) (Actually, I rather like Pick, I just find SQL relational databases to be the path of least resistance for most applications.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Must have been the collard greens that made me lose control! -- "In the Mix" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 15:22:25 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 16:22:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you >> apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube >> sound. >> >> http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm > > Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? That's some magic paint! -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 15:33:37 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 17:33:37 -0300 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) References: Message-ID: <04fb01cd23eb$e381e540$6600a8c0@tababook> Eh...tony, have you read the datasheet of Signetics 25120 WOM memories? :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) >> >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > If that was the case, why didn't they go with state of the art in 1972 >> > and use the Signetics 25120 memory chip? --Chuck >> >> Probably due to the inconvenience of needing 6.3Vac for the Vff supply. > > Why does Vff have to be AC? Surely it's the rms vlaue that really > matters, so 6.3V DC would be OK too [1]. And IIRC the unregulated output > of the mains adapter was on the expanison connector of the Speccy, so > you could use that with a dropping resistor. > > [1] Vff = 6.3V nearly always implies an indrectly-heated cathode, so the > polarity and whether it's AC or DC make very little difference. > > -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 26 15:38:04 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:38:04 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 26, at 11:32 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> If that was the case, why didn't they go with state of the art in >>> 1972 >>> and use the Signetics 25120 memory chip? --Chuck >> >> Probably due to the inconvenience of needing 6.3Vac for the Vff >> supply. > > Why does Vff have to be AC? Surely it's the rms vlaue that really > matters, so 6.3V DC would be OK too [1]. And IIRC the unregulated > output > of the mains adapter was on the expanison connector of the Speccy, so > you could use that with a dropping resistor. > > [1] Vff = 6.3V nearly always implies an indrectly-heated cathode, > so the > polarity and whether it's AC or DC make very little difference. The datasheet specifies AC. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 26 15:49:49 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:49:49 +0200 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <201204260723.33494.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <20120426224949.a8a00518.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:26:59 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ ftp://ftp.cs.uiowa.edu/pub/jones/pdp8/emulator.txt.Z http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Software/WinEight.htm -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From alberto at retrocomputing.eu Thu Apr 26 16:07:56 2012 From: alberto at retrocomputing.eu (Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione MUSEO DEL COMPUTER onlus) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 23:07:56 +0200 Subject: Help on HP9836CU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <018d01cd23f0$aeb65300$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> > > I have an HP9836CU (series 9000/200) without monitor cable. > > I know it well.... It's a good news :) > That is correct. One of the pins on the DA15 connecotr on the > comptuer is > a 12V power ouptu. On the 9836A, it powers the monochtrome > monitor. On > the 9836C, it operate s a relay (actually a pair of relaus, for soem > unknown reaosn) on the monitor PSU board, whcih conenct maisn > to the rest > fo the SMPSU. This is the mistake :) I was surprise to not hear the classic "sound" of the high voltage on the crt tube, or the degauss coil "bump". > It is pin-pin, I can't remembr if all pins are used (but read > on...). I > am pretty sure it was special cable, the 3 video signals were > wires with > (75 ohm?) coax, the other signals with just palin wires, Oh, and an I've built the cable, referring to the pinout in the manual. Some signal have a separate ground return; for them I've used twisted wires (I was at home , not in laboratory and haven't coax cables). It work :) and the characters on the screen are very goog, withoud noise or other defect. The cable is without shield, but the lenght is very short. In the future, I can build a serious cable :) > There should be a set of my schematics o nthe same site. They > may well be > under the HP9826, the 2 machines are closely related so I > preodcued one > set of diagrams to cover the lot. Said diagrams cover the 9826, 9836A > (mono) and 9836C (colour) machines and monitors, and all the > CPU boards > I've seen, including the 68010 + MMU board in mu 9836CU. I've found it and downloaded. It's a very big work ! > Let me know if you need any help. Thanks a lot ! Alberto. ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione MUSEO DEL COMPUTER Onlus Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 1856032 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 2046034 Mobile +39 335 6026632 Sito web : http://www.museodelcomputer.org Mail : alberto at museodelcomputer.org Filiale di Torino : Tel 011 23415829 Filiale di Roma : Tel 06 98357066 ------------------------------------------------------ Le telefonate con numero nascosto sono filtrate Calls with no caller identifier are filtered ------------------------------------------------------ From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Apr 26 17:52:11 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:52:11 +0200 Subject: ibm funky 3 1/2 inch disk Message-ID: <1335480731.8873.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> i have one of the IBM:made minidisk ? (looks a bit like a normal 3-1/2 inch floppy) drives. Any source for disks ? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 18:13:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 16:13:37 -0700 Subject: ibm funky 3 1/2 inch disk In-Reply-To: <1335480731.8873.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1335480731.8873.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <4F997431.24290.1B85F98@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2012 at 0:52, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > i have one of the IBM:made minidisk ? (looks a bit like a normal 3-1/2 > inch floppy) drives. > > Any source for disks ? Are you talking about the IBM 341 Demidiskette? Those are quite rare, as I don't believe that they ever entered general distribution. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/floppy/DemiDiskette/ Even I don't have one of those. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 26 18:19:14 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 16:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: <201204262014.q3QKEuCG12189730@floodgap.com> References: <201204262014.q3QKEuCG12189730@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Of course now days I'm practically writing SQL in my sleep, so I'm not sure >>> how suited FileMaker is to me now anyway. >> >> They have a cure for that now. It's called Multi-Value and it will set >> you FREEEEEEEEEEeeeee11111!!!oneone. :) > > OH NO! Pick users! AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! ;) > > (Actually, I rather like Pick, I just find SQL relational databases to be > the path of least resistance for most applications.) Ugh. My deepest sympathies. Try ScarletDME - it's even open source. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 26 18:24:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 16:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ibm funky 3 1/2 inch disk In-Reply-To: <1335480731.8873.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1335480731.8873.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20120426162342.J62812@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 27 Apr 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > i have one of the IBM:made minidisk ? (looks a bit like a normal 3-1/2 > inch floppy) drives. Which model? > Any source for disks ? for which model? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 19:13:25 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 21:13:25 -0300 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? References: <201204262014.q3QKEuCG12189730@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <09d001cd240a$986437b0$6600a8c0@tababook> >> (Actually, I rather like Pick, I just find SQL relational databases to be >> the path of least resistance for most applications.) > Ugh. My deepest sympathies. Try ScarletDME - it's even open source. :) Shameless plug? ;oD From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 26 19:24:33 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 17:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Apr 26, 12 04:19:14 pm" Message-ID: <201204270024.q3R0OXah14417978@floodgap.com> > > OH NO! Pick users! AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! ;) > > > > (Actually, I rather like Pick, I just find SQL relational databases to be > > the path of least resistance for most applications.) > > Ugh. My deepest sympathies. Try ScarletDME - it's even open source. :) geneb.org? Sounds suspicious. ;) How easy is it to connect to other things? It seems like there should be a way for, say, Perl DBD/DBI to talk to it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Hell hath no fury like a bureaucrat scorned. -- Milton Freedman ------------ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 26 19:59:53 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 20:59:53 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Em-u-lator=99_-_Re=3A_OT=3A_Re=3A_Aud?= =?windows-1252?Q?iophilia?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/04/12 2:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you >> apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube >> sound. >> >> http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm > > Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? Em-u-lator, i.e. Simh Snake oil, my friends. Pure snake oil... --T > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 26 20:49:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 18:49:24 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> >From Erik's Vintage Forum (cross-posted from comp.os.cpm): http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30436-Don- Maslin-s-library Is anyone in the Bay Area on top of this? --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Apr 26 21:14:50 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:14:50 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9A011A.5050601@atarimuseum.com> Sallem is always available and he has the gear for just such an endeavor... oh Sellam, come out, come out where ever you are...... Chuck Guzis wrote: > >From Erik's Vintage Forum (cross-posted from comp.os.cpm): > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30436-Don- > Maslin-s-library > > Is anyone in the Bay Area on top of this? > > --Chuck > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 26 21:16:58 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: <09d001cd240a$986437b0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <201204262014.q3QKEuCG12189730@floodgap.com> <09d001cd240a$986437b0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> (Actually, I rather like Pick, I just find SQL relational databases to be >>> the path of least resistance for most applications.) >> Ugh. My deepest sympathies. Try ScarletDME - it's even open source. :) > > Shameless plug? ;oD > You bet! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 26 21:18:09 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: <201204270024.q3R0OXah14417978@floodgap.com> References: <201204270024.q3R0OXah14417978@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> OH NO! Pick users! AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! ;) >>> >>> (Actually, I rather like Pick, I just find SQL relational databases to be >>> the path of least resistance for most applications.) >> >> Ugh. My deepest sympathies. Try ScarletDME - it's even open source. :) > > geneb.org? Sounds suspicious. ;) > > How easy is it to connect to other things? It seems like there should be > a way for, say, Perl DBD/DBI to talk to it. There's a client library that you can use to talk to it. I think there's a PHP binding as well, but I haven't worked with it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 26 21:25:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:25:35 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9A039F.3050106@neurotica.com> On 04/26/2012 02:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you >> apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube >> sound. >> >> http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm > > Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? You can slow it down to about the same speed by installing Windows. ;) (I'm sorry guys, I couldn't resist! ;)) What we really need are decent front panels for modern machines. Pity the LED activity would be too damn fast for it to be usable. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 26 21:25:30 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> From Erik's Vintage Forum (cross-posted from comp.os.cpm): > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30436-Don- > Maslin-s-library > Oh. My. God. Someone PLEASE tell me this is being looked into seriously. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 26 21:27:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:27:16 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9A0404.3030706@neurotica.com> On 04/26/2012 02:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Every few years I see what's happening in the audiophool arena. It >> seems to be getting worse, not better. Another portent of the end of >> civilisation as we know it? > > It would eb amusing if only people didn't believe it... > > I always find looking at the manuals to be instructive. The manual for a > modern radio tuner I looked at had many pages on how to use the > controls. And that was it. The manual for my old tuner has 1 page on how > to connected it up and how to use the single control (RF tuning). It then > has a dozen pages on how to align the thing (which requries a calibrated > signal generator and a double-beam 'scope). Follwed by parts lists, > chassis photographs showing the position of all the components, and, of > course, a scheamtic. ...which nearly nobody cares about nowadays. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it's a fact. There'd be no point in printing all that stuff for the 0.5% of their customer bases who would want it. Personally, I don't care, as long as the info is available in some other form. (which, annoyingly, it seldom is.. :-( ) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 26 22:34:08 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 20:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9A039F.3050106@neurotica.com> References: <4F9A039F.3050106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/26/2012 02:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you >>> apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube >>> sound. >>> >>> http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm >> >> Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? > > You can slow it down to about the same speed by installing Windows. ;) > > (I'm sorry guys, I couldn't resist! ;)) > > What we really need are decent front panels for modern machines. Pity > the LED activity would be too damn fast for it to be usable. :-( The sort of "front panel" that would be most useful on a modern machine would be some sort of dot-matrix display showing stuff like various kinds of load metrics. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 26 22:41:10 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 20:41:10 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9A011A.5050601@atarimuseum.com> References: , <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9A011A.5050601@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: From her post... "At one point, Sellam Ismail came over and helped me photograph and catalogue the most unique pieces, with the intention of auctioning them to targetted special interest groups. But, that never materialized" At 10:14 PM -0400 4/26/12, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Sallem is always available and he has the gear for just such an >endeavor... oh Sellam, come out, come out where ever you are...... > > > > > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >From Erik's Vintage Forum (cross-posted from comp.os.cpm): >> >>http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30436-Don- >>Maslin-s-library >> >>Is anyone in the Bay Area on top of this? >> >>--Chuck >> >> -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 26 22:45:17 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 20:45:17 -0700 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:25 AM -0700 4/26/12, Gene Buckle wrote: >On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>If this is the effect it has on people, I'll stick with SQL. :-) >>Multi-Value sounds like it might be related to what I dealt with as >>a DBA on a Honeywell DPS-8. > >Check out http://www.openqm.com or http://www.scarletdme.org - Once >you get into a good MVDB, you'll wonder why you ever wasted a minute >bashing your brain into a pulp against SQL. I see one problem, I tend to enjoy SQL. :-) Besides, MS SQL is the standard database at work (I'm also inclined to say it's one of the few good products to come out of MS). I've even used it as the back-end for apps running on UNIX. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 26 23:05:20 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:05:20 -0400 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9A1B00.70103@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/04/12 11:45 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:25 AM -0700 4/26/12, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> If this is the effect it has on people, I'll stick with SQL. :-) >>> Multi-Value sounds like it might be related to what I dealt with as a >>> DBA on a Honeywell DPS-8. >> >> Check out http://www.openqm.com or http://www.scarletdme.org - Once >> you get into a good MVDB, you'll wonder why you ever wasted a minute >> bashing your brain into a pulp against SQL. > > I see one problem, I tend to enjoy SQL. :-) Besides, MS SQL is the > standard database at work (I'm also inclined to say it's one of the few > good products to come out of MS). Out of Sybase, you mean. --T > I've even used it as the back-end for > apps running on UNIX. > > Zane > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 26 23:47:13 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 21:47:13 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> On 4/26/12 6:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> From Erik's Vintage Forum (cross-posted from comp.os.cpm): > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30436-Don- > Maslin-s-library > > Is anyone in the Bay Area on top of this? > I was not aware the floppies were available. I thought Sellam had everything. He brought over one machine that may have been used for imaging, but the disk was about 40mb and wouldn't recall even after I installed a known working logic board. If she made an offer to CHM, there was no mention of Don. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 27 00:51:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:51:06 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2012 at 21:47, Al Kossow wrote: > I was not aware the floppies were available. I thought Sellam had > everything. He brought over one machine that may have been used for > imaging, but the disk was about 40mb and wouldn't recall even after I > installed a known working logic board. 40 MB wouldn't even begin to cover what Don had in his archive, if what I remember is correct. (We used to trade images quite a bit) Perhaps this is worth a note before the stuff evaporates for good (if it hasn't already). --Chuck From jonas at otter.se Thu Apr 26 07:19:28 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 14:19:28 +0200 Subject: audiophools, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e0b3b390ac7bec43e81ebe447aefc6f@otter.se> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 06:15:06 -0500, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctech mailing list submissions to > cctech at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctech-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > >> I'll say. The kind that can buy into a phrase like "Cryogenic >> processing renders the Reference-II absolutely grainless." >> >> I read that as "brainless" at first, and I still think that's >> what they meant. > > There were some classics sold (?) over here. > > Like 'carpet earthing clips', of which yuu must always use an odd > number > so that more charge runs away than comes back. > > Or electret foils. I have no problem with the existance of electret > foil, > or indeed of its use in audio (microphones). Butsticking an odd > number of > trianges cut from it on your record turntable, pointing in the > direction > of rotation would, IMHO, make no improvement tot the sound. > > Or cuttint the corner off your amplifier front panel (appearmetn and > odd > number of corners sounds better). > > And we all rememebr the green pen :-) > > -tony On April 1, 1962, Swedish Television had an item on the news where a well-known technical expert explained that the broadcasting company had just installed new equipment which would allow viewers to see the programmes in colour, if they cut up a ladies' nylon stocking and fixed it over the screen. I believe quite a few people actually tried it. It became one of the best known April Fools jokes in Sweden, at least with those who were around at the time. /Jonas From dennis at conus.info Thu Apr 26 20:23:17 2012 From: dennis at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 04:23:17 +0300 Subject: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1335331969.41627.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1335331969.41627.YahooMailClassic@web161201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F99F505.8090202@conus.info> On 25.04.2012 8:32, Sam Onella wrote: > Sweet! All my friends are gonna be so jealous when they hear the new sound that power cable gives my dvd player. I even went and got the best HDMI cable http://www.bestbuy.com/site/AudioQuest+-+Chocolate+65.6%27+HDMI+Cable+-+Platinum+White/9892794.p?id=1218202121644&skuId=9892794 and my handy Delkon ethernet cable http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM/ref=cm_rdp_product it's gonna stream the future! > > Yeah honestly I don't know why these are legal to sell. It's a question of esthetics: richmen want to have *everything* solid-looking without exceptions. From spedraja at ono.com Fri Apr 27 01:40:08 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 08:40:08 +0200 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Great news... I wish. SPc. 2012/4/27 Chuck Guzis > From Erik's Vintage Forum (cross-posted from comp.os.cpm): > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30436-Don- > Maslin-s-library > > Is anyone in the Bay Area on top of this? > > --Chuck > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 01:51:01 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 07:51:01 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9A039F.3050106@neurotica.com> References: <4F9A039F.3050106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F9A41D5.4070505@gmail.com> On 27/04/2012 03:25, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/26/2012 02:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Getting off topic now, but this one is just plain stupid. It's a coating you >>> apply to all the semiconductor devices in an amplifier to give it a tube >>> sound. >>> >>> http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm >> Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? > You can slow it down to about the same speed by installing Windows. ;) > > (I'm sorry guys, I couldn't resist! ;)) > > What we really need are decent front panels for modern machines. Pity > the LED activity would be too damn fast for it to be usable. :-( Gosh, you mean you don't have one of these? ;- http://www.elektor.com/magazines/2010/january/usb-magic-eye.1191254.lynkx and in action http://www.elektor.com/forum/elektor-forums/fields-of-interest/microcontrollers-embedded/usb-em84-magic-eye-help-needed.1250152.lynkx?pageStart=1#2136736 (sadly its not mine either) > -Dave > Another Dave... From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 01:57:20 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 07:57:20 +0100 Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9A4350.7030806@gmail.com> On 27/04/2012 04:45, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:25 AM -0700 4/26/12, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> If this is the effect it has on people, I'll stick with SQL. :-) >>> Multi-Value sounds like it might be related to what I dealt with as >>> a DBA on a Honeywell DPS-8. >> >> Check out http://www.openqm.com or http://www.scarletdme.org - Once >> you get into a good MVDB, you'll wonder why you ever wasted a minute >> bashing your brain into a pulp against SQL. > > I see one problem, I tend to enjoy SQL. :-) Besides, MS SQL is the > standard database at work (I'm also inclined to say it's one of the > few good products to come out of MS). I've even used it as the > back-end for apps running on UNIX. > Didn't they start by buying it from SYBASE? > Zane > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 27 08:52:56 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 06:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Filemaker Pro 6/7? In-Reply-To: References: <201204260311.q3Q3BL5u15073416@floodgap.com> <558AF3C7-E5E3-4117-A066-914AA5056303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:25 AM -0700 4/26/12, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> If this is the effect it has on people, I'll stick with SQL. :-) >>> Multi-Value sounds like it might be related to what I dealt with as a DBA >>> on a Honeywell DPS-8. >> >> Check out http://www.openqm.com or http://www.scarletdme.org - Once you get >> into a good MVDB, you'll wonder why you ever wasted a minute bashing your >> brain into a pulp against SQL. > > I see one problem, I tend to enjoy SQL. :-) Besides, MS SQL is the standard > database at work (I'm also inclined to say it's one of the few good products > to come out of MS). I've even used it as the back-end for apps running on > UNIX. My, your affliction runs deep my friend! :) FYI, it's a good product that came from SyBase, not MS. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 10:13:18 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 11:13:18 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> References: <4F99EF89.8070106@telegraphics.com.au> <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > If she made an offer to CHM, there was no mention of Don. > How big is the archive? Is it something I could go fetch while in the Bay Area over the next five or six days, if CHM can work out the donation details? -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 27 10:24:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 08:24:48 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9ABA40.4030402@bitsavers.org> On 4/26/12 10:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Apr 2012 at 21:47, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I was not aware the floppies were available. I thought Sellam had >> everything. He brought over one machine that may have been used for >> imaging, but the disk was about 40mb and wouldn't recall even after I >> installed a known working logic board. > > 40 MB wouldn't even begin to cover what Don had in his archive, if > what I remember is correct. (We used to trade images quite a bit) > I thought so too. I have to get back in touch with Sellam to see if I can take a look at any of the other computers that came from Don. If they are still with Don's niece, we have to see about trying to image the disks. > Perhaps this is worth a note before the stuff evaporates for good (if > it hasn't already). > I've put a request in to find out contact info. What I suspect happened is that if a donation request came in, there was no mention of Don's name. We do get offers of random CP/M floppies often and most times they aren't considered without an inventory. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 12:02:33 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 10:02:33 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9ABA40.4030402@bitsavers.org> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9ABA40.4030402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F9AD129.1050801@gmail.com> I heard back from the niece. Doesn't sound like she was very happy with Sellam . Seems to be a trend recently. She also said she received a few replies and someone had already said they were taking it all. Hopefully it is someone that will image them. On 4/27/2012 8:24 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I thought so too. I have to get back in touch with Sellam to see if I > can take > a look at any of the other computers that came from Don. If they are > still with > Don's niece, we have to see about trying to image the disks. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 27 12:08:21 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 10:08:21 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9AD129.1050801@gmail.com> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9ABA40.4030402@bitsavers.org> <4F9AD129.1050801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9AD285.3060809@bitsavers.org> On 4/27/12 10:02 AM, mc68010 wrote: > She also said she received a few replies and someone had already said they were taking it > great. "someone" From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 27 12:35:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 10:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120427103345.G97045@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Perhaps this is worth a note before the stuff evaporates for good (if > it hasn't already). Such as "All of those boxes of "boot disks" don't even go with any of the machines there, so they're discardable" ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 27 13:17:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:17:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: audiophools, In-Reply-To: <3e0b3b390ac7bec43e81ebe447aefc6f@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 26, 12 02:19:28 pm Message-ID: > On April 1, 1962, Swedish Television had an item on the news where a > well-known technical expert explained that the broadcasting company had > just installed new equipment which would allow viewers to see the > programmes in colour, if they cut up a ladies' nylon stocking and fixed > it over the screen. I believe quite a few people actually tried it. > It became one of the best known April Fools jokes in Sweden, at least > with those who were around at the time. I see... There was a preoduct sold over here that consisted of a multi-colour filter. It was divided into 3 horizontal stripes. The top stripe was blue, the middle stripe a weak flesh colour and the bottom stripe was green. The idea was that if you put it over your TV screen you got colour pictures.... Well, it was OK for most outdoor sceens (blue sky, people in the middle, grass at the bottom), but less good for anything else. But I am told people bought them. (No I am not confusing this with the rotary disk for fliters used in some sequential colour systemss). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 27 13:37:00 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:37:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <04fb01cd23eb$e381e540$6600a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 26, 12 05:33:37 pm Message-ID: > > > Eh...tony, have you read the datasheet of Signetics 25120 WOM memories? > :o) Of course. I have a reprint of it here. I also know what Vff stands for [1], and relaise the significance of 6.3V RMS. Given that, I don't see why DC souldn't be used... [1] I have used some serious device that quote Vff as a parameter. I've also used some where having an AC supply is important [2]. I don't think that would apply to a WOM though. [3] VF displays. If the filament is heated from DC, oen end of the display is brighter than the other. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 27 13:39:51 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:39:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 26, 12 01:38:04 pm Message-ID: > > [1] Vff = 6.3V nearly always implies an indrectly-heated cathode, > > so the > > polarity and whether it's AC or DC make very little difference. > > The datasheet specifies AC. > Yes, but AFAIK it doesn't specify if this supply has to be floating, centre-tapped to ground, or whatever. That implies to me an isolated filament heating a separate cathode. So I can't see why AC is essential. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 27 13:41:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:41:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120426224949.a8a00518.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Apr 26, 12 10:49:49 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:26:59 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ > ftp://ftp.cs.uiowa.edu/pub/jones/pdp8/emulator.txt.Z > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Software/WinEight.htm No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. I want blinkenlights, either POSbus, NEGbus or Omnibus I/O, and most importantly, compoennts i can replace individually. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 27 13:48:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:48:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help on HP9836CU In-Reply-To: <018d01cd23f0$aeb65300$3a00a8c0@PCA104Alberto> from "Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione MUSEO DEL COMPUTER onlus" at Apr 26, 12 11:07:56 pm Message-ID: > > > > I have an HP9836CU (series 9000/200) without monitor cable. > > > > I know it well.... > > It's a good news :) You may have seen the picturs on the HPCC web site from the 2010 mini-cofernece. There are a couple of me with a 9836CU in a lot of bits. Don't worry, it did all go back together again... > > > That is correct. One of the pins on the DA15 connecotr on the > > comptuer is > > a 12V power ouptu. On the 9836A, it powers the monochtrome > > monitor. On > > the 9836C, it operate s a relay (actually a pair of relaus, for soem > > unknown reaosn) on the monitor PSU board, whcih conenct maisn > > to the rest > > fo the SMPSU. > > This is the mistake :) I was surprise to not hear the classic "sound" of > the high voltage on the crt tube, or the degauss coil "bump". The unit will only turn on the EHT to the CRT (acutally, will only energise the flyback transformer) when there are currents flowing through both sets of defleciton coils (the horizotnal output stange and EHT gernator are separate). This prevents the scrren from getting a line burn t on it if somethign fails. So when everytyhing's cabled up, when you turn the comptuer on, the monitor PSU should start (and I think it then degauses). Then the CPU initiallises the 6845 on the text video board, the scans start, and the EHT then comes up (I think the CRT heaters are fet from that transformer too, BTW). Ther'es a little green LED on the deflection board in the monitor which turns on when the thing has enabled the EHT generator. > > > It is pin-pin, I can't remembr if all pins are used (but read > > on...). I > > am pretty sure it was special cable, the 3 video signals were > > wires with > > (75 ohm?) coax, the other signals with just palin wires, Oh, and an > > I've built the cable, referring to the pinout in the manual. Some signal I posted a pinout last night, too. > have a separate ground return; for them I've used twisted wires (I was > at home , not in laboratory and haven't coax cables). > It work :) and the characters on the screen are very goog, withoud noise > or other defect. The cable is without shield, but the lenght is very > short. In the future, I can build a serious cable :) Good!. Do you get any errors in the power-on self test>? Does it find the graphics board and 2 floppy drives? How much memory do you have, and do you have any i/O cards? Any -U model is goign to have a bootROM 4.0 I think, which means you can boot from an HPIB disk drive (floppy or hard), EPROM board, bubble memory board, or whatever. > > > There should be a set of my schematics o nthe same site. They > > may well be > > under the HP9826, the 2 machines are closely related so I > > preodcued one > > set of diagrams to cover the lot. Said diagrams cover the 9826, 9836A > > (mono) and 9836C (colour) machines and monitors, and all the > > CPU boards > > I've seen, including the 68010 + MMU board in mu 9836CU. > > I've found it and downloaded. It's a very big work ! It took me quite a long time to produce that.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 27 14:10:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 20:10:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9A0404.3030706@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 26, 12 10:27:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/26/2012 02:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Every few years I see what's happening in the audiophool arena. It > >> seems to be getting worse, not better. Another portent of the end of > >> civilisation as we know it? > > > > It would eb amusing if only people didn't believe it... > > > > I always find looking at the manuals to be instructive. The manual for a > > modern radio tuner I looked at had many pages on how to use the > > controls. And that was it. The manual for my old tuner has 1 page on how > > to connected it up and how to use the single control (RF tuning). It then > > has a dozen pages on how to align the thing (which requries a calibrated > > signal generator and a double-beam 'scope). Follwed by parts lists, > > chassis photographs showing the position of all the components, and, of > > course, a scheamtic. > > ...which nearly nobody cares about nowadays. > > I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it's a fact. There'd be no > point in printing all that stuff for the 0.5% of their customer bases > who would want it. I do wonder hoe many purchasers back in the 1960s (when this tuner was made) had, or had access to, a double-beam 'socpe, an accurately-calibrated signal generaotr, etc. MY guess is very few. But the information was there anyway. > > Personally, I don't care, as long as the info is available in some > other form. (which, annoyingly, it seldom is.. :-( ) Agreed. I don't mind having to pay extra for a service manual, but I do wish htey were easily avaialble nad complete... -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 14:59:31 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:59:31 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9730B0F8-7BF0-4E8C-BC17-EF39AE1EB5EB@gmail.com> On Apr 27, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:26:59 +0100 (BST) >> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >>> Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? >> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ >> ftp://ftp.cs.uiowa.edu/pub/jones/pdp8/emulator.txt.Z >> http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Software/WinEight.htm > > No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. I want blinkenlights, either > POSbus, NEGbus or Omnibus I/O, and most importantly, compoennts i can > replace individually. If you want components you can replace individually, a heavy coating of muriatic acid should do the trick. The individual components will be very small and in aqueous solution, but with enough care, you should be able to replace them individually. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 15:19:03 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:19:03 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <238D7009-A62D-42D7-90F3-96C66A7CE842@gmail.com> On Apr 27, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I always find looking at the manuals to be instructive. The manual for a >>> modern radio tuner I looked at had many pages on how to use the >>> controls. And that was it. The manual for my old tuner has 1 page on how >>> to connected it up and how to use the single control (RF tuning). It then >>> has a dozen pages on how to align the thing (which requries a calibrated >>> signal generator and a double-beam 'scope). Follwed by parts lists, >>> chassis photographs showing the position of all the components, and, of >>> course, a scheamtic. >> >> ...which nearly nobody cares about nowadays. >> >> I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it's a fact. There'd be no >> point in printing all that stuff for the 0.5% of their customer bases >> who would want it. > > I do wonder hoe many purchasers back in the 1960s (when this tuner was > made) had, or had access to, a double-beam 'socpe, an > accurately-calibrated signal generaotr, etc. MY guess is very few. But > the information was there anyway. Consumers, no, but if you brought it to an appliance repair shop, they'd probably like to have schematics. They probably wouldn't be shelling out for a service manual for every consumer tuner model under the sun. Of course nowadays, we just throw it away when it doesn't work. - Dave From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 27 15:30:19 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 16:30:19 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9AD285.3060809@bitsavers.org> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9ABA40.4030402@bitsavers.org> <4F9AD129.1050801@gmail.com> <4F9AD285.3060809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1c674213259f0a3428ebdb890f1a07f4.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> > On 4/27/12 10:02 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> She also said she received a few replies and someone had already said >> they were taking it >> > great. "someone" > > > I was told that the archive was here in the northeast, so I replied to Gaby and said we in MARCH would be honored to curate it. Gaby said she passed the message on. But, then I found out the archive is out west. So I think someone (like you, Al) should be its caretaker. I'll explain that to the family if they write back to me. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 27 15:34:54 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 13:34:54 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9B02EE.6060806@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, but AFAIK it doesn't specify if this supply has to be floating, > centre-tapped to ground, or whatever. That implies to me an isolated > filament heating a separate cathode. So I can't see why AC is essential. Without knowing more about the internal design of the part, I wouldn't assume that violating the specs can be done without degrading its performance or reliability. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 27 15:38:27 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 13:38:27 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. I want blinkenlights, Modern PCs often give you millions of those. > either POSbus, NEGbus or Omnibus I/O, Modern PCs have a positive bus. > and most importantly, compoennts i can replace individually. -tony Modern PCs do have components you can replace individually. There is some variation, but typically the replaceable components are: * system unit * monitor * power cable (typically two) * video cable * keyboard * mouse From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Apr 27 15:52:31 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 13:52:31 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <1c674213259f0a3428ebdb890f1a07f4.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9ABA40.4030402@bitsavers.org> <4F9AD129.1050801@gmail.com> <4F9AD285.3060809@bitsavers.org> <1c674213259f0a3428ebdb890f1a07f4.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <4F9B070F.5080000@gmail.com> Gaby said they already have Al's contact info and she passed it along to the woman who actually has the stuff. They are in the process of deciding who will get the stuff. She said they will pass along info to the group when they decide. I suspect she is getting email from many people. We can probably back off now. On 4/27/2012 1:30 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I was told that the archive was here in the northeast, so I replied to > Gaby and said we in MARCH would be honored to curate it. Gaby said she > passed the message on. But, then I found out the archive is out west. > So I think someone (like you, Al) should be its caretaker. I'll > explain that to the family if they write back to me. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 27 15:58:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 13:58:55 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: <04fb01cd23eb$e381e540$6600a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 26, 12 05:33:37 pm, Message-ID: <4F9AA61F.18263.1270370@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2012 at 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Eh...tony, have you read the datasheet of Signetics 25120 WOM > > memories? > > :o) > > Of course. I have a reprint of it here. > > I also know what Vff stands for [1], and relaise the significance of > 6.3V RMS. Given that, I don't see why DC souldn't be used... Well, you did notice that I suggested that using DC connected through a DPDT reversing switch flipped once every fortnight or so would satisfy the requirements, since the frequency of the AC wasn't specified. You have to keep with the spirit of the thing. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 27 16:33:26 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:33:26 -0600 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F9AA61F.18263.1270370@cclist.sydex.com> References: <04fb01cd23eb$e381e540$6600a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 26, 12 05:33:37 pm, <4F9AA61F.18263.1270370@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9B10A6.8030801@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/27/2012 2:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Well, you did notice that I suggested that using DC connected through > a DPDT reversing switch flipped once every fortnight or so would > satisfy the requirements, since the frequency of the AC wasn't > specified. > > You have to keep with the spirit of the thing. But then you have to reverse the blades of the 6' fan to keep the dust bunnies* blowing on to the chips. > --Chuck > Ben. The bunny bucket chips is the B version. Still in development as bit or two randomly *HOP* out every year or so. Lose bits are a serious problem with 10^13 bits traveling every second or so per computer. From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Apr 27 17:31:12 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:31:12 -0300 Subject: book sale, including some computer classics Message-ID: <201204272231.q3RMVQ3n071555@billy.ezwind.net> A friend from Tucson, Arizona, is selling all his books since he will be moving soon. Since his collection includes some computer classics, I thought there might be some interest here. http://tucson.craigslist.org/gms/2980831256.html -- Jecel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 27 18:50:52 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:50:52 -0400 Subject: instant blinkenlights - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9B30DC.7020100@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/04/12 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:26:59 +0100 (BST) >> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >>> Now where can I get a coating to paint on a Pentium to turn it into a PDP8? >> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ >> ftp://ftp.cs.uiowa.edu/pub/jones/pdp8/emulator.txt.Z >> http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Software/WinEight.htm > > No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. I want blinkenlights, either > POSbus, NEGbus or Omnibus I/O, and most importantly, compoennts i can > replace individually. You may be expecting too much of a simple ointment. --T > > -tony > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 27 18:54:11 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:54:11 -0400 Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> References: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/04/12 4:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. I want blinkenlights, > > Modern PCs often give you millions of those. > >> either POSbus, NEGbus or Omnibus I/O, > > Modern PCs have a positive bus. > >> and most importantly, compoennts i can replace individually. -tony > > Modern PCs do have components you can replace individually. There is > some variation, but typically the replaceable components are: > > * system unit > * monitor > * power cable (typically two) > * video cable > * keyboard > * mouse > > And *still* it's rarely done. In fact the PC is often thrown out when the pre-installed operating system "rots" or the hard drive dies. Then there's the bad caps problem. Almost NONE of these get replaced even though it's a trivial *component level* repair that doesn't need a schematic. It seems very likely that more than 99% of LCDs that fail in this way unnecessarily end up in landfill, when most of the components would outlive the owner. --T From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 27 19:03:26 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 20:03:26 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9B070F.5080000@gmail.com> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9ABA40.4030402@bitsavers.org> <4F9AD129.1050801@gmail.com> <4F9AD285.3060809@bitsavers.org> <1c674213259f0a3428ebdb890f1a07f4.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <4F9B070F.5080000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9B33CE.30506@snarc.net> > Gaby said they already have Al's contact info and she passed it along > to the woman who actually has the stuff. They are in the process of > deciding who will get the stuff. She said they will pass along info to > the group when they decide. I suspect she is getting email from many > people. We can probably back off now. I told Gaby that MARCH is essentially bowing out, because we support Al as the best choice in this expedition. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 27 19:09:47 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 18:09:47 -0600 Subject: instant blinkenlights - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9B30DC.7020100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F9B30DC.7020100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F9B354B.3080908@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/27/2012 5:50 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > You may be expecting too much of a simple ointment. Ointment you watch for Flies. PDP paint you watch for BUGS. > --T > >> >> -tony > :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 27 19:10:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: instant blinkenlights - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9B30DC.7020100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F9B30DC.7020100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120427171008.I9908@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 27 Apr 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > You may be expecting too much of a simple ointment. Did you try upgrading the power cord? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 27 19:28:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin's Archive resurfaces In-Reply-To: <4F9B33CE.30506@snarc.net> References: , <4F9998B4.30772.246FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9A24D1.2020109@bitsavers.org> <4F99D15A.9786.3244668@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9ABA40.4030402@bitsavers.org> <4F9AD129.1050801@gmail.com> <4F9AD285.3060809@bitsavers.org> <1c674213259f0a3428ebdb890f1a07f4.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <4F9B070F.5080000@gmail.com> <4F9B33CE.30506@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20120427172727.U9908@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 27 Apr 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I told Gaby that MARCH is essentially bowing out, because we support Al > as the best choice in this expedition. I also said that AL was the best for it From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 27 19:51:54 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 20:51:54 -0400 Subject: instant blinkenlights - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120427171008.I9908@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F9B30DC.7020100@telegraphics.com.au> <20120427171008.I9908@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9B3F2A.3010700@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/04/12 8:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >> You may be expecting too much of a simple ointment. > > Did you try upgrading the power cord? > > > Of course: The first thing I did was replace the standard generic item with a supercooled monocrystalline radium PowerThrobbing? rod that was extruded on Mars. No effect. --T From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 27 20:43:29 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 18:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: instant blinkenlights - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9B3F2A.3010700@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Apr 27, 12 08:51:54 pm" Message-ID: <201204280143.q3S1hTTO15597576@floodgap.com> > Of course: The first thing I did was replace the standard generic item > with a supercooled monocrystalline radium PowerThrobbing_ rod that was > extruded on Mars. If I ever hear about your radium power-throbbing Martian rod again, it will be too soon. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ ;-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 27 22:26:46 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 23:26:46 -0400 Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia References: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:54 PM Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia > On 27/04/12 4:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Modern PCs do have components you can replace individually. There is >> some variation, but typically the replaceable components are: >> >> * system unit >> * monitor >> * power cable (typically two) >> * video cable >> * keyboard >> * mouse >> >> > > And *still* it's rarely done. > > In fact the PC is often thrown out when the pre-installed operating system > "rots" or the hard drive dies. > Why is that surprising? Lets say your OS is hosed, few people have a clue how to backup their data (or something to back it up to), they don't have an OS CD anymore (you need to burn an image when you get the new PC installed so the maker can save a few cents), and they probably pirated or downloaded the apps they use and don't have a clue where to find them again. If they want to pay somebody its either a kid who doesn't have a clue what he is doing or a local scammer who will snag parts from their machine and sell them off. Lets say the HD died. Where are they going to get another one outside of going to the Geek Sqaud and paying more for a HD install (with a bare OS if they are lucky) all for the cost of more then a new machine. The fact is most computers are so cheap it isn't worth it for the non geek to bother fixing anything they just buy a new one. The fact is with the shift to mobile devices like laptops it isn't economical to repair them when they won't physically last that long anyway. Another issue is people are more comfortable with a fixed monthly bill then a monthly payment PLUS extra cash for instant repairs (people are just living paycheck to paycheck sometimes). I recall a sales guy I worked with in the late 1990's who needed new tires on his 2 year old car that he financed for 4 or 5 years. What the guy did was trade in the "old" car for a new one (same model, the style didn't even change yet) and lost 2 years of payments just because he couldn't come up with the cash for 4 new tires but could live with a few extra years of payments. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 27 23:05:20 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 00:05:20 -0400 Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F9B6C80.1000609@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/04/12 11:26 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 7:54 PM > Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia > > >> On 27/04/12 4:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Modern PCs do have components you can replace individually. There is >>> some variation, but typically the replaceable components are: >>> >>> * system unit >>> * monitor >>> * power cable (typically two) >>> * video cable >>> * keyboard >>> * mouse >>> >>> >> >> And *still* it's rarely done. >> >> In fact the PC is often thrown out when the pre-installed operating >> system "rots" or the hard drive dies. >> > > Why is that surprising? > I didn't mention surprise. I just said it happens. "Shocking" or "revolting" or "ultimately unsustainable" would be better words. --T > Lets say your OS is hosed, few people have a clue how to backup their > data (or something to back it up to), they don't have an OS CD anymore > (you need to burn an image when you get the new PC installed so the > maker can save a few cents), and they probably pirated or downloaded the > apps they use and don't have a clue where to find them again. If they > want to pay somebody its either a kid who doesn't have a clue what he is > doing or a local scammer who will snag parts from their machine and sell > them off. > > Lets say the HD died. Where are they going to get another one outside of > going to the Geek Sqaud and paying more for a HD install (with a bare OS > if they are lucky) all for the cost of more then a new machine. > > The fact is most computers are so cheap it isn't worth it for the non > geek to bother fixing anything they just buy a new one. The fact is with > the shift to mobile devices like laptops it isn't economical to repair > them when they won't physically last that long anyway. Another issue is > people are more comfortable with a fixed monthly bill then a monthly > payment PLUS extra cash for instant repairs (people are just living > paycheck to paycheck sometimes). I recall a sales guy I worked with in > the late 1990's who needed new tires on his 2 year old car that he > financed for 4 or 5 years. What the guy did was trade in the "old" car > for a new one (same model, the style didn't even change yet) and lost 2 > years of payments just because he couldn't come up with the cash for 4 > new tires but could live with a few extra years of payments. > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 27 23:22:12 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 21:22:12 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A2745B8-3247-47A1-8B08-2E281853C536@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 27, at 11:39 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> [1] Vff = 6.3V nearly always implies an indrectly-heated cathode, >>> so the >>> polarity and whether it's AC or DC make very little difference. >> >> The datasheet specifies AC. >> > Yes, but AFAIK it doesn't specify if this supply has to be floating, > centre-tapped to ground, or whatever. That implies to me an isolated > filament heating a separate cathode. So I can't see why AC is > essential. The datasheet shows only a single connection for Vff, not a floating connection. AC is required by the WOM for two reasons: - Vff is used in a critical area of the chip. DC used here would create a unidirectional field-differential which promotes asymmetric migration of ions or impurities in the cystalline structure of the chip. This critical region holds a few atoms in a particular quantum state where - in accordance with the principles of quantum computation - they are able to sink bits with a probability of 1, thus allowing an infinite number of bits to be written to the device (like a digital black hole). - The AC is also used as a clock to periodically empty the WOM bit- bucket caches. This is the WOM equivalent to RAM refresh; without the clock, the bit-buckets would fill up. The bit-bucket caches are a performance improvement, they sit between the write interface and the quantum sink, every now and then the bit-buckets are emptied into the quantum sink. The quantum sink was top-secret military technology when developed over 30 years ago. The military didn't really want the WOM device released but Signetics wanted to try marketing it, so a compromise was reached: the drain shown on the chip in the datasheet. This was actually a misdirection, so people wouldn't ask how the device was able to sink an infinite number of bits. The military need not have feared, there wasn't much of a commercial market at the time. People thought the WOM was a joke, or at best a pointless device. Recently however, WOMs have found a significant application in digital audio systems. New design and research has resulted in digital reflection-suppressor (DRS) technology (patent applied for) - an alternative to the green-pen solution for suppressing unwanted reflections in a CD. With DRS technology, the reflections (photons) are allowed to bounce around in the CD, eventually being detected and making it out into the (electronic) bit stream intermixed with the desired audio bits. Sophisticated proprietary digital filter algorithms identify the unwanted reflections in the bit stream, separate them from the true audio bits, and send them to the WOM where they disappear. Obviously, if Vff is not AC the WOM will eventually not be able to sink the reflections, leading to degraded audio quality. NDAs prohibit me from disclosing full details of the quantum sink, but quantum computation is now public enough that this much can be disclosed without concern of legal consequences. Finally, you can benefit at home from this taxpayer-funded military technology - it's about time. Standalone DRS products will be available soon, or contact to discuss incorporating DRS technology into your production audio systems. We're currently working on new filter algorithms to send noise bits into the WOM. If you thought digital audio was quiet before - just wait. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 27 23:23:22 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 00:23:22 -0400 Subject: book sale, including some computer classics In-Reply-To: <201204272231.q3RMVQ3n071555@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201204272231.q3RMVQ3n071555@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F9B70BA.10004@atarimuseum.com> It would be nice if he could retake those that aren't so difficult to read, the pictures really aren't helpful unfortunately. Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > A friend from Tucson, Arizona, is selling all his books since he will be > moving soon. Since his collection includes some computer classics, I > thought there might be some interest here. > > http://tucson.craigslist.org/gms/2980831256.html > > -- Jecel > > From jws at jwsss.com Sat Apr 28 02:25:33 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 00:25:33 -0700 Subject: book sale, including some computer classics In-Reply-To: <4F9B70BA.10004@atarimuseum.com> References: <201204272231.q3RMVQ3n071555@billy.ezwind.net> <4F9B70BA.10004@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4F9B9B6D.7040907@jwsss.com> On 4/27/2012 9:23 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > It would be nice if he could retake those that aren't so difficult to > read, the pictures really aren't helpful unfortunately. > > >> >> http://tucson.craigslist.org/gms/2980831256.html >> >> -- Jecel Minimum background of the owner (computer professional, collector, technician programmer) and their age would help in guessing whether there is any need to bother. A fellow who I helped collect the books of recently was active from 55 thru 80, for instance and had books and publications on both sides of that, and people can gauge whether there is anything likely of interest from that sometimes. Of course a few high res photos if possible would help too. The ad seemed to be worded for a garage sale and general interest and didn't have much to bring me out, so good luck on his sale tomorrow. (even if I were in Tucson) Jim From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 03:22:55 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:22:55 +0100 Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F9BA8DF.7080302@gmail.com> On 28/04/2012 00:54, Toby Thain wrote: > On 27/04/12 4:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. I want blinkenlights, >> >> Modern PCs often give you millions of those. >> >>> either POSbus, NEGbus or Omnibus I/O, >> >> Modern PCs have a positive bus. >> >>> and most importantly, compoennts i can replace individually. -tony >> >> Modern PCs do have components you can replace individually. There is >> some variation, but typically the replaceable components are: >> >> * system unit >> * monitor >> * power cable (typically two) >> * video cable >> * keyboard >> * mouse >> I think you can add CPU although many laptop/netbook CPUs are soldered in. I just replaced the motherboard in my IBM T41 (actually with a T42 mother board) and much to my surprise the CPU was socketed. Perhaps because IBM gave 3-year warranties with these beasts. >> > > And *still* it's rarely done. > > In fact the PC is often thrown out when the pre-installed operating > system "rots" or the hard drive dies. > Drive rot seems to be getting common. I have lost a few drives that way recently. No particular pattern, just failing to find files on boot. However I have had to throw out a couple of systems recently. Individually the systems seemed to work fine, but when I put an OS on them, after a while they start to corrupt disks. Where I work one symptoms is that the AV starts to complain about corruption to the signature files. You re-install but after a few days its back. Then some time later you start to get odd errors about missing DLLs and eventually the system won't boot. I have tried replacing RAM but it seems to make no difference. I get the feeling its the DMA controller but these days as every thing is in a couple of chips you can't do much at that stage and as they are older systems CPUs and Mother Boards aren't easily obtainable. > Then there's the bad caps problem. Almost NONE of these get replaced > even though it's a trivial *component level* repair that doesn't need > a schematic. It seems very likely that more than 99% of LCDs that fail > in this way unnecessarily end up in landfill, when most of the > components would outlive the owner. > There is some hope. A search on E-Bay reveals that many folks are selling capacitor kits for a wide range of gear. The trouble is we are lazy and if folks have enough money then its easier and nicer to bin the old one and get a new one. Perhaps the turn-down will change attitudes in Europe but I think not. I may be old fahsioned but I can't see how a country can exist on shopping and finance "industry" which is what it seems my (UK) government thinks. From what I can see any profit a bank makes is money that could have been spent on tangible assets .... I have had a new PSU in my 42" TV , I assume because of caps blowing but it was covered under warranty. I have an LCD computer display that has had the caps re-done. Some times it doesn't work. I lost an ADSL router that way, but something else must have been damaged. However replacing the caps on a motherboard isn't as straight forward as it sounds. Getting the old ones out and getting holes clean enough to get the new ones in is challenging. My usual trick of using propelling pencil lead didn't work and I eventually resorted to a drill bit in a pin vice. However one CPU board I did for a friend > --T Dave G4UGM From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 28 04:43:34 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 02:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: instant blinkenlights - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204280143.q3S1hTTO15597576@floodgap.com> References: <201204280143.q3S1hTTO15597576@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Of course: The first thing I did was replace the standard generic item >> with a supercooled monocrystalline radium PowerThrobbing_ rod that was >> extruded on Mars. > > If I ever hear about your radium power-throbbing Martian rod again, it will > be too soon. This is starting to sound like an obscene space opera. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 28 07:21:59 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 05:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: instant blinkenlights - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <201204280143.q3S1hTTO15597576@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Apr 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> Of course: The first thing I did was replace the standard generic item >>> with a supercooled monocrystalline radium PowerThrobbing_ rod that was >>> extruded on Mars. >> >> If I ever hear about your radium power-throbbing Martian rod again, it will >> be too soon. > > This is starting to sound like an obscene space opera. The finest entertainment to be found this side of the 24-1/4th Century! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 28 13:19:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:19:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <9730B0F8-7BF0-4E8C-BC17-EF39AE1EB5EB@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 27, 12 03:59:31 pm Message-ID: > > If you want components you can replace individually, a heavy coating > of muriatic acid should do the trick. The individual components will > be very small and in aqueous solution, but with enough care, you > should be able to replace them individually. Ah, so _that's_ what is meant by a 'microcontroller solution' :-) [Several companies claim to want to sell me 'microcontroller solutions' (or 'FPGA solutions'). I feel like asking what the devices are disolved in and how do I recrystalise them] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 28 13:25:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:25:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <238D7009-A62D-42D7-90F3-96C66A7CE842@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 27, 12 04:19:03 pm Message-ID: [Real instruciton manuals from the 1960s] > Consumers, no, but if you brought it to an appliance repair shop, they'd I wonder how many owners would have taken the instruction book along wit hte device to be repaired... I guess if the repair shop also sold the units, they could jsut look at hte manual from a new one, but wouldn't it have been easier just to proovide all such dealers with a service manual? I dod rememebr buying a TV about 20 eyars ago from a well-known London shop. I was handed a docuemnt entitled 'Customer Service Infomration'. It unfolded into one large sheet. On one side was a schematic, on the other were PCP layouts and alignment data. I am not sure if that should have come with the TV , but I made no comment.... > probably like to have schematics. They probably wouldn't be shelling > out for a service manual for every consumer tuner model under the sun. That's what the 'Radio and Television Servicing' books and Trader Sheets wrre for, surely. Thirsd party service information (schemaitc + layout (sometimes) + alignemt data for most radios and TVs, > Of course nowadays, we just throw it away when it doesn't work. You might. I grab a soldering iron and have a go at fixing it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 28 13:29:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:29:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 27, 12 01:38:27 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. I want blinkenlights, > > Modern PCs often give you millions of those. I thought _modern_ PCs had one steady light with millions of blinkenfliters in front of it. > > > either POSbus, NEGbus or Omnibus I/O, > > Modern PCs have a positive bus. > > > and most importantly, compoennts i can replace individually. -tony > > Modern PCs do have components you can replace individually. There is > some variation, but typically the replaceable components are: > > * system unit > * monitor > * power cable (typically two) > * video cable > * keyboard > * mouse No, those are subasseblies. I regard each one as being made up of many components. Yes, evel tne power cable. That's a length of cable, an IEC 20 socket and a BS1363 plgu. O and a BS1362 cartridge fuse. Heck, I even keep defective connnectors as sometimes you an make one good one from the bits of 2 defective ones. As for the other subassemblies, they split into many components of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 28 13:57:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:57:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <3A2745B8-3247-47A1-8B08-2E281853C536@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 27, 12 09:22:12 pm Message-ID: > > On 2012 Apr 27, at 11:39 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>> [1] Vff = 6.3V nearly always implies an indrectly-heated cathode, > >>> so the > >>> polarity and whether it's AC or DC make very little difference. > >> > >> The datasheet specifies AC. > >> > > Yes, but AFAIK it doesn't specify if this supply has to be floating, > > centre-tapped to ground, or whatever. That implies to me an isolated > > filament heating a separate cathode. So I can't see why AC is > > essential. > > The datasheet shows only a single connection for Vff, not a floating > connection. > > AC is required by the WOM for two reasons: > > - Vff is used in a critical area of the chip. DC used here would [...] > > - The AC is also used as a clock to periodically empty the WOM bit- [...] I would think the published Iff - Vff curve i nthe data shert is incompatible with either of these uses. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 28 13:34:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:34:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: <4F9AA61F.18263.1270370@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 27, 12 01:58:55 pm Message-ID: >> Well, you did notice that I suggested that using DC connected through > a DPDT reversing switch flipped once every fortnight or so would > satisfy the requirements, since the frequency of the AC wasn't > specified. > Yes, but as there;'s only 1 Vff pin (presumably referenced to ground), you need a floating DC supply to do that. That's alomost as hard to get as a true AC supply in a lot of cases. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 28 14:06:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 20:06:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9BA8DF.7080302@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at Apr 28, 12 09:22:55 am Message-ID: > I think you can add CPU although many laptop/netbook CPUs are soldered > in. I just replaced the motherboard in my IBM T41 (actually with a T42 > mother board) and much to my surprise the CPU was socketed. Perhaps > because IBM gave 3-year warranties with these beasts. If it's not a BGA package, then it cam be unsodlered and replaced with hand tools. For some odd reason most people seem to think soldering is difficult/immpossible. I don't get this. [...] > There is some hope. A search on E-Bay reveals that many folks are > selling capacitor kits for a wide range of gear. The trouble is we are I've yet to see oen for acomputer motherboard, but I've not really looked. > lazy and if folks have enough money then its easier and nicer to bin the > old one and get a new one. Perhaps the turn-down will change attitudes Mybe for you. Actually ,for me it;'s less work to fix the problem than to have to carry a new in Europe but I think not. I may be old fahsioned but I can't see how a > country can exist on shopping and finance "industry" which is what it > seems my (UK) government thinks. From what I can see any profit a bank > makes is money that could have been spent on tangible assets .... You and me both... > > I have had a new PSU in my 42" TV , I assume because of caps blowing but I think I've mentioned this bfore. Our LCD TV contains 2 PCBs and the LCD panel. The serivce manual doesn't incldue any infromation o nthe PSU, you swap the board when it fails. But it contains full schematics nad parts lists for the signal board, even though ti contians a couple of BGA packages and some fine-pitch PQFPs. And the only information is the schematic, no waveforms or anyhting liek that. I am not looking forward to sorting that out. > it was covered under warranty. I have an LCD computer display that has > had the caps re-done. Some times it doesn't work. I lost an ADSL router > that way, but something else must have been damaged. However replacing > the caps on a motherboard isn't as straight forward as it sounds. > Getting the old ones out and getting holes clean enough to get the new > ones in is challenging. My usual trick of using propelling pencil lead > didn't work and I eventually resorted to a drill bit in a pin vice. > However one CPU board I did for a friend Doesn;'t the old trick of melting the sodler with a good iron on one side and sucking on the other work? It's cleared every hole I've ever needed to (and it gets darn tedious when you are upgradnin a part-populated wave-sodlered RAM board and need to clear out a few hundred holes). -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 14:52:25 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 16:52:25 -0300 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia References: Message-ID: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> > 20 socket and a BS1363 plgu. O and a BS1362 cartridge fuse. Heck, I even > keep defective connnectors as sometimes you an make one good one from the > bits of 2 defective ones. Can someone imagine the house of Tony? :) From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 28 15:10:47 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 22:10:47 +0200 Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120428201047.GB13649@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 07:54:11PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: > > Then there's the bad caps problem. Almost NONE of these get replaced > even though it's a trivial *component level* repair that doesn't > need a schematic. I've had some of caps dying on an ABit BP6 motherboard a couple (7..8 or so) years back. Couldn't find the exact replacement caps so ended up doing it the dirty way: - snipped of the old caps, leaving about 5 mm of wire stub behind - soldered to caps in parallel to those stubs to achieve about the same capacitance The board worked fine for another 2 years (24x7 operation) until the machine got replaced with something faster. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Apr 28 15:22:34 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 21:22:34 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On 28 April 2012 20:52, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> 20 socket and a BS1363 plgu. O and a BS1362 cartridge fuse. Heck, I even >> keep defective connnectors as sometimes you an make one good one from the >> bits of 2 defective ones. > > > ? Can someone imagine the house of Tony? :) Yep.. Probably looks a bit like my dad's... I managed do the entire electrics for his new workshop some years back (two large rooms) using just fittings he'd salvaged or saved... We bought new cable, and a few patress boxes, but pretty much everything else, sockets, switches, lights, storage heaters etc, was re-used stuff; even the consumer unit was second hand... Rob From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 15:23:17 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 16:23:17 -0400 Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120428201047.GB13649@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> <20120428201047.GB13649@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Apr 28, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 07:54:11PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> Then there's the bad caps problem. Almost NONE of these get replaced >> even though it's a trivial *component level* repair that doesn't >> need a schematic. > > I've had some of caps dying on an ABit BP6 motherboard a couple (7..8 or so) > years back. Couldn't find the exact replacement caps so ended up doing it > the dirty way: > - snipped of the old caps, leaving about 5 mm of wire stub behind > - soldered to caps in parallel to those stubs to achieve about the > same capacitance Had to do that to fix the caps on a G5 iMac because my current iron wouldn't heat up hot enough to melt that damned lead-free solder. I had the right caps to fix it and everything, I just couldn't get the old wires out. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 28 15:37:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 13:37:15 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: <4F9AA61F.18263.1270370@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 27, 12 01:58:55 pm, Message-ID: <4F9BF28B.12504.118E0E8@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2012 at 19:34, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, but as there;'s only 1 Vff pin (presumably referenced to > ground), you need a floating DC supply to do that. That's alomost as > hard to get as a true AC supply in a lot of cases. Well, note that there's a requirement for 115VAC anyway. I guess the perfect way is to couple a small alternator to the 6 foot fan motor needed for cooling. That way, if the fan fails, the filament supply will automatically be discontinued, allowing for graceful degradation. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 28 15:40:17 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 13:40:17 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Apr 28, at 11:57 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 2012 Apr 27, at 11:39 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> [1] Vff = 6.3V nearly always implies an indrectly-heated cathode, >>>>> so the >>>>> polarity and whether it's AC or DC make very little difference. >>>> >>>> The datasheet specifies AC. >>>> >>> Yes, but AFAIK it doesn't specify if this supply has to be floating, >>> centre-tapped to ground, or whatever. That implies to me an isolated >>> filament heating a separate cathode. So I can't see why AC is >>> essential. >> >> The datasheet shows only a single connection for Vff, not a floating >> connection. >> >> AC is required by the WOM for two reasons: >> - Vff is used in a critical area of the chip. DC used here would > [...] >> - The AC is also used as a clock to periodically empty the WOM >> bit- > [...] > > I would think the published Iff - Vff curve i nthe data shert is > incompatible with either of these uses. A not unusual I/E curve. It's not incompatible. On 2012 Apr 28, at 11:34 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, but as there;'s only 1 Vff pin (presumably referenced to > ground), Which I pointed out, and negates your presumptions of an isolated filament and DC compatibility. The datasheet specifies AC. (Why do I bother) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 15:40:12 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 17:40:12 -0300 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia References: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <171c01cd257f$3756c480$6600a8c0@tababook> > Yep.. Probably looks a bit like my dad's... I managed do the entire > electrics for his new workshop some years back (two large rooms) using > just fittings he'd salvaged or saved... We bought new cable, and a > few patress boxes, but pretty much everything else, sockets, switches, > lights, storage heaters etc, was re-used stuff; even the consumer > unit was second hand... What is a "consumer unit", Rob? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 28 15:58:27 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 13:58:27 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <171c01cd257f$3756c480$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <171c01cd257f$3756c480$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <614943D2-FBE7-4F86-8FFC-17593276CB31@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Apr 28, at 1:40 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yep.. Probably looks a bit like my dad's... I managed do the entire >> electrics for his new workshop some years back (two large rooms) >> using >> just fittings he'd salvaged or saved... We bought new cable, and a >> few patress boxes, but pretty much everything else, sockets, >> switches, >> lights, storage heaters etc, was re-used stuff; even the consumer >> unit was second hand... > > What is a "consumer unit", Rob? I was going to ask that too. Metering stuff? Or what we in North America call the breaker panel, perhaps? A distribution panel of some sort, as the fuse/breaker arrangement is different in the UK than NA? I've never been clear on all the in-house mains arrangements/ requirements in the UK. From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 28 16:10:17 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 23:10:17 +0200 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120425164005.L28917@shell.lmi.net> References: <201204252016.q3PKGln312583070@floodgap.com> <4F98195F.18537.16180E3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120425164005.L28917@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120428211017.GC13649@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 04:41:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > If I bought a hundred of those crummy cables, I would pay the extra > > > cent because I WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY A HUNDRED OF THOSE CRUMMY > > > CABLES, and therefore my math must be suspect as well ;) > On Wed, 25 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you were to buy a hundred, I suspect that they'd lower the price > > to 49.99 cents each. > > "The 99 cent store" is a large chain. They don't negotiate. I bet they _do_ negotiate, and do it pretty well - with their suppliers, not with their customers. > There is > nobody present in the store who could do the math. But surely their cash registers are able to do math? Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Apr 28 16:17:06 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 22:17:06 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <614943D2-FBE7-4F86-8FFC-17593276CB31@cs.ubc.ca> References: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <171c01cd257f$3756c480$6600a8c0@tababook> <614943D2-FBE7-4F86-8FFC-17593276CB31@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 28 April 2012 21:58, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Apr 28, at 1:40 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> ? What is a "consumer unit", Rob? > > > I was going to ask that too. Metering stuff? Or what we in North America > call the breaker panel, perhaps? A distribution panel of some sort, as the > fuse/breaker arrangement is different in the UK than NA? I've never been > clear on all the in-house mains arrangements/requirements in the UK. Yep. It's a distribution panel. Single master switch and Individual fuses or breakers for each circuit, in one handy convenient unit. In this case, it was being used to split a 40A (240V) underground cable from the house. 5A circuit for the lights, a 32A ring main[1] and two 20A circuits via timers for storage heaters. [1] Standard UK wiring for sockets is to feed a single cable from a 32A fuse/breaker in a daisy chain around all the sockets in an area and back to the fuse again, hence the "ring". I think standard 2.5mm^2 twin-and-earth is usually rated 20A max, but any given socket has two paths back to the fuse, so can potentially sink substantially more. Sockets are all identical, but our plugs all have their own fuses, at various ratings suitable for the appliances they are connected to, up to a maximum of 13A. Rob From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 28 16:58:19 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 17:58:19 -0400 Subject: cap replacement - Re: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120428201047.GB13649@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> <20120428201047.GB13649@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4F9C67FB.5080403@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/04/12 4:10 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 07:54:11PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> Then there's the bad caps problem. Almost NONE of these get replaced >> even though it's a trivial *component level* repair that doesn't >> need a schematic. > > I've had some of caps dying on an ABit BP6 motherboard a couple (7..8 or so) > years back. Couldn't find the exact replacement caps so ended up doing it > the dirty way: > - snipped of the old caps, leaving about 5 mm of wire stub behind > - soldered to caps in parallel to those stubs to achieve about the > same capacitance > > The board worked fine for another 2 years (24x7 operation) until the machine > got replaced with something faster. > Yes, I just did six caps on an Intel mainboard. Seemed to resolve its issues. Had no trouble finding suitable parts online at Newark. http://canada.newark.com/ --T > Kind regards, > Alex. From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Apr 28 17:40:01 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 23:40:01 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <614943D2-FBE7-4F86-8FFC-17593276CB31@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <039C3020A0124A1EB9C8D736C6789B2B@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 2012 Apr 28, at 1:40 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> Yep.. Probably looks a bit like my dad's... I managed do the entire >>> electrics for his new workshop some years back (two large rooms) >>> using just fittings he'd salvaged or saved... We bought new >>> cable, and a few patress boxes, but pretty much everything else, >>> sockets, switches, lights, storage heaters etc, was re-used stuff; >>> even the consumer unit was second hand... >> >> What is a "consumer unit", Rob? > > I was going to ask that too. Metering stuff? Or what we in North > America call the breaker panel, perhaps? A distribution panel of some > sort, as the fuse/breaker arrangement is different in the UK than NA? > I've never been clear on all the in-house mains arrangements/ > requirements in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_unit From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 28 18:20:30 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 18:20:30 -0500 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9C7B3E.1030504@pico-systems.com> A while ago somebody mentioned thinking about building a discrete transistor computer. I ran across the link again of the one I saw (only online) http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm With all SMT, he packs the boards very closely, performance is of course not so great with discrete junction transistors running in saturation. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 28 21:13:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:13:50 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4F9C7B3E.1030504@pico-systems.com> References: , <4F9C7B3E.1030504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4F9C416E.1209.24D0416@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2012 at 18:20, Jon Elson wrote: > A while ago somebody mentioned thinking about building a > discrete transistor computer. I ran across the link again of > the one I saw (only online) > http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm > > With all SMT, he packs the boards very closely, performance > is of course not so great with discrete junction transistors running > in saturation. Lots of transistors, aren't there? I think of the PB-250--a minicomputer (even though the name didn't exist then) with about 300 transistors and a mess of diodes. 21 bit words+sign, magnetostrictive recirculating memory. Powered from a standard wall outlet. Bitsavers has very complete details, including circuit card schematics. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 28 21:54:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 22:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <201204290254.WAA24498@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Heck, I even keep defective [mains lead] connnectors as sometimes >> you an make one good one from the bits of 2 defective ones. > Can someone imagine the house of Tony? :) Yes, actually, I can. He sounds a lot like my father in various relevant ways. In fact, rather too much like me for comfort. :/ /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Apr 29 01:00:36 2012 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 01:00:36 -0500 Subject: audiophools, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9CD904.9070308@tx.rr.com> On 4/27/2012 1:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > There was a preoduct sold over here that consisted of a multi-colour > filter. It was divided into 3 horizontal stripes. The top stripe was > blue, the middle stripe a weak flesh colour and the bottom stripe was green. > > The idea was that if you put it over your TV screen you got colour > pictures.... > > Well, it was OK for most outdoor sceens (blue sky, people in the middle, > grass at the bottom), but less good for anything else. But I am told > people bought them. > > (No I am not confusing this with the rotary disk for fliters used in some > sequential colour systemss). > > -tony > In my approximately four years of repairing TVs for the public here in the USA, I saw one of those tricolor screen overlays just once. I think I managed to get out of the customer's house without laughing out loud. It was a lot of years ago, but I seem to recall it took me a couple of minutes to realize the intent of the thing, and to understand that for certain scenes (outdoors as Tony points out) it actually sort of worked. -- Later, Charlie Carothers From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Apr 28 19:34:34 2012 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 20:34:34 -0400 Subject: Gone extinct Message-ID: I came across some interesting reading the other day in a library book that I'm sorry I can't remember its name. It essentially said: Can one subscribe to the theory that vintage computers, such as the Coleco ADAM, went extinct because they used cassette drives where one spent more time finding information and recording such which greatly slowed down processing thereby defeating the purpose of electronic computing? I?m not sure if this applied to floppy drive systems but computing never really took off until hard drives came along in the 16-bit world, i.e., the mid-80s! Classic computing aficionados, particularly on this site, may have a different take on things. Murray-- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 29 06:24:59 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 12:24:59 +0100 Subject: Replacement Diode Message-ID: <005601cd25fa$b7d87380$27895a80$@ntlworld.com> (Sending again because I sent it from the "wrong" account, apologies if this gets duplicated) The saga of my broken PDP11/24 PSU (H7140) continues. I have now found a shorted diode and need to find a suitable replacement. On the printset it is described as "D 672 TR=14NS PIV=60V SI". What would be a suitable replacement? There is a local Maplin that would be open today that has this one: http://www.maplin.co.uk/switching-diode-46386, would that be suitable? Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 29 07:29:09 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:29:09 +0100 Subject: Replacement Diode In-Reply-To: <005601cd25fa$b7d87380$27895a80$@ntlworld.com> References: <005601cd25fa$b7d87380$27895a80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005c01cd2603$ae808cb0$0b81a610$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 29 April 2012 12:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Replacement Diode > > (Sending again because I sent it from the "wrong" account, apologies if this > gets duplicated) > > The saga of my broken PDP11/24 PSU (H7140) continues. I have now found a > shorted diode and need to find a suitable replacement. On the printset it is > described as "D 672 TR=14NS PIV=60V SI". > > What would be a suitable replacement? > > There is a local Maplin that would be open today that has this one: > http://www.maplin.co.uk/switching-diode-46386, would that be suitable? > > Regards > > Rob Just a bit more information in case it is helpful or relevant. The failed diode is D26 on p88 of the H7140 printset, which you can find here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf Thanks again. Rob From cctech at vax-11.org Sun Apr 29 08:06:28 2012 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 07:06:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Replacement Diode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/subst.php a D672 crosses to a 1N3656 diode, which you can (theoretically) get from amazon.com (or your local flavor thereof) I would resist the urge to plug something that looks similiar in to see what happens. You run the risk of damaging something else. Clint On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, RobJ wrote: > The saga of my broken PDP11/24 PSU (H7140) continues. I have now found a > shorted diode and need to find a suitable replacement. On the printset it is > described as "D 672 TR=14NS PIV=60V SI". > > What would be a suitable replacement? > > There is a local Maplin that would be open today that has this one: > http://www.maplin.co.uk/switching-diode-46386, would that be suitable? > > Regards > > Rob > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 29 08:52:02 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:52:02 -0700 Subject: Replacement Diode In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi He already has a shorted diode. I don't think another diode can do any worse. Dwight > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 07:06:28 -0600 > From: cctech at vax-11.org > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Replacement Diode > > > According to http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/subst.php a D672 crosses > to a 1N3656 diode, which you can (theoretically) get from amazon.com (or > your local flavor thereof) > > I would resist the urge to plug something that looks similiar in to see > what happens. You run the risk of damaging something else. > > Clint > > On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, RobJ wrote: > > > The saga of my broken PDP11/24 PSU (H7140) continues. I have now found a > > shorted diode and need to find a suitable replacement. On the printset it is > > described as "D 672 TR=14NS PIV=60V SI". > > > > What would be a suitable replacement? > > > > There is a local Maplin that would be open today that has this one: > > http://www.maplin.co.uk/switching-diode-46386, would that be suitable? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 29 09:34:22 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:34:22 +0100 Subject: Replacement Diode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006001cd2615$2d3773f0$87a65bd0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech at vax-11.org > Sent: 29 April 2012 14:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Replacement Diode > > > According to http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/subst.php a D672 > crosses to a 1N3656 diode, which you can (theoretically) get from > amazon.com (or your local flavor thereof) > > I would resist the urge to plug something that looks similiar in to see what > happens. You run the risk of damaging something else. > > Clint > Thanks for the link, that is really useful, I had not come across it before. Actually, it shows the 672 to be either a 1N3653 or a 1N3656. I can find more info on the 3653 than the 3656. The 3653 appears to have a spec equivalent to or better than what it lists in the parts list. Now it seems I have to find the modern equivalent of those diodes. A 1N4149 seems to fit the bill, does that seem reasonable? Here is Farnell's description: http://uk.farnell.com/fairchild-semiconductor/1n4149/small-signal-diode-0-5a -do35/dp/1651147 Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 29 10:49:53 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:49:53 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers Message-ID: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> I have some back-burner projects that will one day need me to start burning EPROMs and EEPROMs. I can't justify the cost of the big professional things costing hundreds of pounds. At the moment I know I will need to program a 27C1024 EPROM (40 pin DIP) and a 28C256 EEPROM (28 pin DIP), but it would be nice to have something that can handle a reasonable variety of devices. I believe the Willem programmer may be suitable, it is certainly affordable, would that fit the bill? It seems to come from Thailand, although there seem to be all sorts of sources on ebay, so I am not sure what the genuine source really is. I am also not averse to buying secondhand, ebay or otherwise, if I can get something that is going to be more generally useful than the Willem. Any advice welcome. Thanks Rob From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 11:09:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 12:09:57 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> On Apr 29, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I believe the Willem programmer may be suitable, it is certainly affordable, > would that fit the bill? It seems to come from Thailand, although there seem > to be all sorts of sources on ebay, so I am not sure what the genuine source > really is. > > I am also not averse to buying secondhand, ebay or otherwise, if I can get > something that is going to be more generally useful than the Willem. I've heard some pretty bad things about the Willem programmer. You might have some luck looking for a second-hand Xeltek programmer, perhaps on eBay; I've had pretty good luck with mine. Be aware that if you get a parallel port one, you'll need a parallel port at 0x378, which means you either need a native port built onto your board or, like me, a PCI one and a Windows XP VM which pretends that port is at 0x378. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 11:22:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 09:22:17 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com>, <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9D0849.13447.11F411@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 12:09, David Riley wrote: > You might have some luck looking for a second-hand Xeltek programmer, > perhaps on eBay; I've had pretty good luck with mine. Be aware that > if you get a parallel port one, you'll need a parallel port at 0x378, > which means you either need a native port built onto your board or, > like me, a PCI one and a Windows XP VM which pretends that port is at > 0x378. I did that--got a Superpro/L cheap and hooked it up to a HP thin client (with real serial and parallel ports) that I got for next to nothing. Install DOS with networking or Win9x and you've got a complete package. The Wayback machine shows that around 1998 or so, there was a Windows- GUI programming software for the Superpro/L, but the file isn't available. Would anyone have a copy of it? --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 11:22:07 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:22:07 -0300 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19e801cd2624$58979660$6600a8c0@tababook> >> I believe the Willem programmer may be suitable, it is certainly >> affordable, >> would that fit the bill? It seems to come from Thailand, although there >> seem Wellom programmers (not willem). Look for VP280, VP290, VP380. These are **excellent** programmers for the price. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 11:54:54 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:54:54 -0300 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com>, <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9D0849.13447.11F411@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1a5a01cd2628$d6c1b9e0$6600a8c0@tababook> Can something be cheaper than this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wellon-VP190-VP-190EEprom-Flash-MCU-Programmer-USB-/250975944178?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6f54fdf2 I had the VP280. Only sold it because of the Beeprog (waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, but almost 10x more expensive). But it is such a good performer, I'd buy another in a blink of my eye. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 1:22 PM Subject: Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers > On 29 Apr 2012 at 12:09, David Riley wrote: > >> You might have some luck looking for a second-hand Xeltek programmer, >> perhaps on eBay; I've had pretty good luck with mine. Be aware that >> if you get a parallel port one, you'll need a parallel port at 0x378, >> which means you either need a native port built onto your board or, >> like me, a PCI one and a Windows XP VM which pretends that port is at >> 0x378. > > I did that--got a Superpro/L cheap and hooked it up to a HP thin > client (with real serial and parallel ports) that I got for next to > nothing. Install DOS with networking or Win9x and you've got a > complete package. > > The Wayback machine shows that around 1998 or so, there was a Windows- > GUI programming software for the Superpro/L, but the file isn't > available. Would anyone have a copy of it? > > --Chuck > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 12:09:30 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:09:30 -0300 Subject: Replacement Diode References: <006001cd2615$2d3773f0$87a65bd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1a9401cd262a$fbbe5850$6600a8c0@tababook> For your description, any 1n400x diode would fit the bill... --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Jarratt" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" ; "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 11:34 AM Subject: RE: Replacement Diode > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech at vax-11.org >> Sent: 29 April 2012 14:06 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: Replacement Diode >> >> >> According to http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/subst.php a D672 >> crosses to a 1N3656 diode, which you can (theoretically) get from >> amazon.com (or your local flavor thereof) >> >> I would resist the urge to plug something that looks similiar in to see > what >> happens. You run the risk of damaging something else. >> >> Clint >> > > Thanks for the link, that is really useful, I had not come across it > before. > > Actually, it shows the 672 to be either a 1N3653 or a 1N3656. I can find > more info on the 3653 than the 3656. The 3653 appears to have a spec > equivalent to or better than what it lists in the parts list. > > Now it seems I have to find the modern equivalent of those diodes. A > 1N4149 > seems to fit the bill, does that seem reasonable? Here is Farnell's > description: > http://uk.farnell.com/fairchild-semiconductor/1n4149/small-signal-diode-0-5a > -do35/dp/1651147 > > Thanks > > Rob > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 29 12:14:49 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:14:49 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <1a5a01cd2628$d6c1b9e0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com>, <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9D0849.13447.11F411@cclist.sydex.com> <1a5a01cd2628$d6c1b9e0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F9D7709.7020207@philpem.me.uk> On 29/04/12 17:54, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Can something be cheaper than this? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wellon-VP190-VP-190EEprom-Flash-MCU-Programmer-USB-/250975944178?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6f54fdf2 The Conitec GALEP-4 I paid ?20 for? :) I also have an ELNEC PREPROM-02aLV which is the mutt's nuts - I'd have bought one of their entry-level universal programmers had Dataman not snagged the UK distribution agreement and jacked the prices up. From what I've heard (but have not confirmed - YMMV), you also have to use the Dataman-branded version of Elnec's driver software, which lags several version iterations behind and (last time I checked) didn't receive the "beta" device-support or AlgOR updates. More expensive *and* inferior. Where do I sign? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 29 12:26:35 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:26:35 -0600 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4F9C416E.1209.24D0416@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9C7B3E.1030504@pico-systems.com> <4F9C416E.1209.24D0416@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9D79CB.3090104@jetnet.ab.ca> >Lots of transistors, aren't there? I think of the PB-250--a >minicomputer (even though the name didn't exist then) with about 300 >transistors and a mess of diodes. 21 bit words+sign, >magnetostrictive recirculating memory. Powered from a standard wall >outlet. Bitsavers has very complete details, including circuit card >schematics. The SMALL and the BIG. Looking at the ICT 1301 around here. http://www.shedlandz.co.uk/ Last years open house video was what caught my eye. http://oldwuzzark.co.uk/exprtvid/od11_big.wmv --Chuck Ben. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 12:32:03 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:32:03 -0300 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com>, <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9D0849.13447.11F411@cclist.sydex.com> <1a5a01cd2628$d6c1b9e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9D7709.7020207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1ab901cd262e$1bed4ca0$6600a8c0@tababook> > I also have an ELNEC PREPROM-02aLV which is the mutt's nuts - I'd have > bought one of their entry-level universal programmers had Dataman not > snagged the UK distribution agreement and jacked the prices up. From > what I've heard (but have not confirmed - YMMV), you also have to use > the Dataman-branded version of Elnec's driver software, which lags > several version iterations behind and (last time I checked) didn't > receive the "beta" device-support or AlgOR updates. AFAIK this is not true. Why don't you download the updated software from elnec site and try? :oP From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 12:33:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 28 Apr 2012, Murray McCullough wrote: > I came across some interesting reading the other day in a library book > that I'm sorry I can't remember its name. Just as well. There are a LOT of books written by people well below the median of this group. Well, to be honest, HALF OF US are below our median!! > ADAM, went extinct because they used cassette drives . . . (explains the difference between ADAM and TRS80, Apple, and PET) > I?m not sure if this applied to floppy drive systems but computing > never really took off until hard drives came along in the 16-bit > world, i.e., the mid-80s! No. "never really took off" is a euphemism for ("I didn't know about them until") ANYBODY who paid ANY attention to them in the late 1970s knew that it was INEVITABLE and SOON that they would replace typewriters ON EVERY DESK! It applies to ALL of us, but is most easily recognizable in TV jaw-flappers, and NON-HISTORIAN NON- (well self-proclaimed)EXPERT authors of histories. "Computers existed, sort of, in prehistoric times." (They were around, but I didn't care) "Computers first really "took off" when . . ." (that's when I noticed them) THAT is why there are SO MANY amateur histories that mention and marginalize the "pre-dawn" times (an acknowledgement that they were already there!), but essentially have the history of computers start with Apple ][/TRS80/Pet OR IBM-PC (5150) OR AT (5170) OR Mac OR HARD DRIVES (Wordstar (and other word processing), Visicalc (and other spreadsheets ("VisiClones")) didn't really exist until I got interested) as being the "starting point", "when things took off" (when I got into it) It's not just computers. It is a normal human trait to acknowledge the existence of a pre-history (to be marginalized as insignificant), but assert that the real beginning was when WE got into it. Look at the PBS "documentary" "Berkeley in the 60's" - "It all started when we were sitting around in New York, and heard about what was going on out there, . . . " (The important "starting point" was when WE heard about it!) > Classic computing aficionados, particularly > on this site, may have a different take on things. Because we have an interest in the computers that existed before y'all cared and/or we REALIZE that we came in late, and we're INTERESTED in what had already been happening. OR we're just a bunch of old farts who wish that we could go back half a century. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vrs at msn.com Sun Apr 29 12:42:51 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:42:51 -0700 Subject: Replacement Diode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: cctech at vax-11.org: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:06 AM > According to http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/subst.php a D672 crosses to > a 1N3656 diode, which you can (theoretically) get from amazon.com (or your > local flavor thereof) I am glad folks are finding my page useful. More boards actually cross D672 to 1N3653, though the core memory for the 8/I and 8/L does suggest the 1N3656 as a substitute. Looking at the specs, 1N3656 is slower and higher voltage than the 1N3653. > On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, RobJ wrote: >> The saga of my broken PDP11/24 PSU (H7140) continues. I have now found a >> shorted diode and need to find a suitable replacement. On the printset it is >> described as "D 672 TR=14NS PIV=60V SI". >> >> What would be a suitable replacement? They've called out a speed and a reverse voltage, so I'd guess those are the critical spec's. Based on that, I'd lean toward the 1N3653 for the replacement. (That would be 100V and 4ns.) Someone mentioned 1N400x. The 1N4001 is too low a voltage, and I don't think any of the 1N400x series are meant as switching diodes. A lot of datasheets for 1N400x don't even give a spec for it. I'd stick with something that is guaranteed to be 14ns or better. Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 29 12:58:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:58:35 -0400 Subject: Replacement Diode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9D814B.4090401@neurotica.com> On 04/29/2012 01:42 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: cctech at vax-11.org: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:06 AM >> According to http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/subst.php a D672 >> crosses to a 1N3656 diode, which you can (theoretically) get from >> amazon.com (or your local flavor thereof) > > I am glad folks are finding my page useful. I certainly am! I just ordered a bunch of bulbs to re-bulb my RL02s thanks to your info. They arrived a couple of days ago and all is well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 29 13:10:47 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:10:47 +0100 Subject: Stripping Down a DEC Professional 350 Message-ID: <007a01cd2633$68454490$38cfcdb0$@ntlworld.com> I have had this machine for a while now and decided today to at least start cleaning it up. It is very dirty inside. The trouble is I can't see how to get at the motherboard, which I can needs cleaning; it seems to be under a riveted plate and I can't see any way to get it at it, or even just to remove the cover for the option cards. Is there a trick to this that I am missing? I have looked around for manuals, but there don't seem to be any online. I am also unsure how to remove the option cards, do I just turn the plastic knob clockwise? It is stiff and I don't want to apply too much force and break something. I also just noticed that it is missing the power switch, don't suppose anyone has one going spare? It looks like probably any DEC rocker switch would be OK. You can see the type I mean by looking at this http://www.recycledgoods.com/zoom.aspx?productID=19036. Incidentally, I opened up the PSU to clean that out. It looks pretty bad: there are quite a few patch wires there, extra components clearly added after it was built, components that look poorly placed, two resistors soldered together in series by their leads, an inductor soldered with large blobs of solder that look worse than anything even I could do. I am left wondering if this typical of these PSUs or if I have just got something that has been hacked about. Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 13:17:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:17:53 -0700 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9D2361.15475.7BC8D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 10:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > Because we have an interest in the computers that existed before y'all > cared and/or we REALIZE that we came in late, and we're INTERESTED > in what had already been happening. OR we're just a bunch of old > farts who wish that we could go back half a century. Heh. Recently I ran across a list posting by a fellow, who back in 2006 was looking for information on a particular CDC operating system used in some special projects in the early 70s. He was frustrated because there apparently is no extant documentation on it and he couldn't find anyone who knew it. I wrote him back telling him that I was involved intimately in the system and could probably tell him the people who were involved, the code that was written, the details of operation and the hardware used- -and the history of the system (nothing springs from nothing), including the "war stories". He'd only needed to post his request on this list and he could have gotten an answer. But his article, with its lack of detail was published in the ACM Annals back in 2006 and there was no longer a need for the information. And so it goes--what could have been a very detailed article was, instead a question mark--and that's not likely to be remedied anytime soon--I certainly don't want to write an article for the Annals about it. My point is that many of the old farts here experienced the history and so have a very different perception that someone who does a little research of printed material and then writes a book. "Vass you dere, Shollie?" is a very relevant question in any computer history work. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 29 13:25:30 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:25:30 -0400 Subject: Gone extinct References: Message-ID: <7E55C47056224CA6A1E5D6138732CD7D@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murray McCullough" To: "cctalk" Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 8:34 PM Subject: Gone extinct >I came across some interesting reading the other day in a library book > that I'm sorry I can't remember its name. It essentially said: Can one > subscribe to the theory that vintage computers, such as the Coleco > ADAM, went extinct because they used cassette drives where one spent > more time finding information and recording such which greatly slowed > down processing thereby defeating the purpose of electronic computing? > I?m not sure if this applied to floppy drive systems but computing > never really took off until hard drives came along in the 16-bit > world, i.e., the mid-80s! Classic computing aficionados, particularly > on this site, may have a different take on things. > > Murray-- > Home computing never took off until the software industry exploded. There are tons of computer models like the ADAM and my Timex 2068 that never went anywhere because there was little software available for the masses. Plenty of people had computers before the 80's, they just tended to write their own software as needed. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 13:36:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:36:08 -0400 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <04E6BA96-38CD-474D-9A0D-B4AFF17C9118@gmail.com> On Apr 29, 2012, at 1:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Classic computing aficionados, particularly >> on this site, may have a different take on things. > > Because we have an interest in the computers that existed before y'all > cared and/or we REALIZE that we came in late, and we're INTERESTED in > what had already been happening. OR we're just a bunch of old farts who > wish that we could go back half a century. Why can't it be both? - Dave From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 29 13:38:32 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:38:32 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <1ab901cd262e$1bed4ca0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com>, <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9D0849.13447.11F411@cclist.sydex.com> <1a5a01cd2628$d6c1b9e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9D7709.7020207@philpem.me.uk> <1ab901cd262e$1bed4ca0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F9D8AA8.7050504@philpem.me.uk> On 29/04/12 18:32, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > AFAIK this is not true. Why don't you download the updated software > from elnec site and try? :oP I don't have one of the Dataman branded programmers. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 29 13:41:24 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 12:41:24 -0600 Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <7E55C47056224CA6A1E5D6138732CD7D@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <7E55C47056224CA6A1E5D6138732CD7D@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <4F9D8B54.9020305@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/29/2012 12:25 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > Home computing never took off until the software industry exploded. > There are tons of computer models like the ADAM and my Timex 2068 that > never went anywhere because there was little software available for the > masses. Plenty of people had computers before the 80's, they just tended > to write their own software as needed. I tend to think the lack of floppy disk with a real OS , killed the 8 bitters out there. I was just looking at some old mags from the 80's,PC DOS and CP/M was it for general purpose OS's. I wanted to get a 6809 machine back then, but I could not find software to with the hardware. Ben. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 13:46:03 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:46:03 -0300 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com>, <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9D0849.13447.11F411@cclist.sydex.com> <1a5a01cd2628$d6c1b9e0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9D7709.7020207@philpem.me.uk> <1ab901cd262e$1bed4ca0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9D8AA8.7050504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1b1901cd2638$6635ac30$6600a8c0@tababook> Ops... --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 3:38 PM Subject: Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers > On 29/04/12 18:32, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> AFAIK this is not true. Why don't you download the updated software >> from elnec site and try? :oP > > I don't have one of the Dataman branded programmers. > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 13:50:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120429114325.C91323@shell.lmi.net> While hard drives were certainly a welcome advance, I feel strongly that neither they, NOR CERTAINLY "16 bit"!, were critical thresholds for the inevitable advance of personal computers. The uses, both office (word-processing and spreadhseets) and home (games), worked quite adequately with floppies. (although admittedly, where would we be right now if our documents were saved on Exatron Stringy Floppies?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 29 13:53:24 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:53:24 -0400 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <04E6BA96-38CD-474D-9A0D-B4AFF17C9118@gmail.com> References: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> <04E6BA96-38CD-474D-9A0D-B4AFF17C9118@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9D8E24.8040403@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/04/12 2:36 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 29, 2012, at 1:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> Classic computing aficionados, particularly >>> on this site, may have a different take on things. >> >> Because we have an interest in the computers that existed before y'all >> cared and/or we REALIZE that we came in late, and we're INTERESTED in >> what had already been happening. OR we're just a bunch of old farts who >> wish that we could go back half a century. > > Why can't it be both? > One set soon becomes the other. I have a foot in both camps. A lot of the stuff I've used, young'uns haven't heard of or seen. And I'm interested in things older than that, that I've never used commercially or even seen myself, too. --T > > - Dave > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 13:59:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <04E6BA96-38CD-474D-9A0D-B4AFF17C9118@gmail.com> References: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> <04E6BA96-38CD-474D-9A0D-B4AFF17C9118@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120429115417.D91323@shell.lmi.net> > > Because we have an interest in the computers that existed before y'all > > cared and/or we REALIZE that we came in late, and we're INTERESTED in > > what had already been happening. OR we're just a bunch of old farts who > > wish that we could go back half a century. On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > Why can't it be both? Tell John Titor that for ONE-WAY transport to 1962, I will get him a 5100 with both APL AND BASIC ROMs. And start a bank account and stock portfolio sufficient to fund his endeavors. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 14:49:01 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have some back-burner projects that will one day need me to start burning > EPROMs and EEPROMs. I can't justify the cost of the big professional things > costing hundreds of pounds. At the moment I know I will need to program a > 27C1024 EPROM (40 pin DIP) and a 28C256 EEPROM (28 pin DIP), but it would be > nice to have something that can handle a reasonable variety of devices. > > I believe the Willem programmer may be suitable, it is certainly affordable, > would that fit the bill? It seems to come from Thailand, although there seem > to be all sorts of sources on ebay, so I am not sure what the genuine source > really is. I made the mistake of purchasing one of those Thai units. Don't waste your money. Flakey software, scattered documentation, zero support (doesn't answer e-mails). > I am also not averse to buying secondhand, ebay or otherwise, if I can get > something that is going to be more generally useful than the Willem. I highly recommend the Andromeda programmer: www.arlabs.com Incredibly well supported and they've been around a while. Best part is that they provide complete service information and schematics for the programmer and all adapters. Even better part is they sell bare boards if you want to build any of the more obscure adapters (I built a bipolar PROM board for mine). The base unit handles both devices you mention above - no adapter needed. Steve -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 14:55:21 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:55:21 -0300 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1b4801cd2642$10235360$6600a8c0@tababook> > I made the mistake of purchasing one of those Thai units. Don't waste > your money. Flakey software, scattered documentation, zero support > (doesn't answer e-mails). Me too. And I loved it. The software was strange, scattered documentation, zero support, but I never need it either. I know how to program an EPROM and it just worked for that (and PLDs and microcontrollers too). Cheap tool, cheap service. But in my case it worked. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 29 14:42:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:42:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages... In-Reply-To: <4F9BF28B.12504.118E0E8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 28, 12 01:37:15 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Apr 2012 at 19:34, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yes, but as there;'s only 1 Vff pin (presumably referenced to > > ground), you need a floating DC supply to do that. That's alomost as > > hard to get as a true AC supply in a lot of cases. > > Well, note that there's a requirement for 115VAC anyway. I guess the I don't recall that. If it's for the fan motor, I don't see any reason why it coul;dn't be driven by a DC motor, or indeed by some form of heat engine. Provided the device doesn't overheat (that is that the airflow is sufficient) it should be fine. > perfect way is to couple a small alternator to the 6 foot fan motor > needed for cooling. That way, if the fan fails, the filament supply Well, it's _a_ way.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 29 14:47:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:47:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <171c01cd257f$3756c480$6600a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 28, 12 05:40:12 pm Message-ID: > What is a "consumer unit", Rob? > OK, I'm not Rob, but I use the term... It;s what's commonly called a fusebox (or breaker box). The incoming mains cable to a house (or simuilar) in the UK goes throguh a sealed electriciy company fuse, then the watthour meterand then to the 'comsumer unit;' which the first part owned by the consumer. It consists of a double-pole main switch and various protectvie devicees (fuses, circuit breakers, RCDs [1]) wiich then feed the various power circuits and lighting cirucits of the house. [1] Residual Current Device. I am not sure if that trem crosses the Pond, it's a device that detects an imbalance of current in the live and neutral wires, indicating a leak to earth somewhere, agd turns off the supply if that imbalance is greater than a certain (small, perahps 30mA) value. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 29 14:52:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:52:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <614943D2-FBE7-4F86-8FFC-17593276CB31@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 28, 12 01:58:27 pm Message-ID: > > > > What is a "consumer unit", Rob? > > I was going to ask that too. Metering stuff? Or what we in North > America call the breaker panel, perhaps? A distribution panel of some YEs, the breaker panel. > sort, as the fuse/breaker arrangement is different in the UK than NA? > I've never been clear on all the in-house mains arrangements/ > requirements in the UK. > > OK. Tere are all sorts of possible wiring schemes over here, but most of the time : Lighting is wired on 5A or 6A fused circuits. Typically each floor of a house has its own lighting circuit, soemthins it's splt up more than that. Power circutis are what are called 'ring mains'. This is an electrical loop of wire, startign and ending at the consumer unit, and fused at 30A or 32A. There is a maximum rea that can be covered by a single ring main, but no limit on the numebr oif socket outlets that can be wired too it. These are ratesdd at 13A, and the plugs ahve their own internal cartridgefsues (avaiable from 2A to 13A, only 3A and 13A are common). Electronic devices often have their onw internal fuses too, of coruse. Cookers, water heaters, shwoer heaters, etc normally have their own dedicated circuits fused at 30A, 32A, 45A or even 60A. It is rare for these devices ot be plugged in, it is possible (using what I know of as BS4343 connectors, often known as 'Commando plugs' after the most common brand name) ro so ao. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 29 15:17:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:17:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stripping Down a DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <007a01cd2633$68454490$38cfcdb0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 29, 12 07:10:47 pm Message-ID: > > I have had this machine for a while now and decided today to at least start > cleaning it up. It is very dirty inside. The trouble is I can't see how to > get at the motherboard, which I can needs cleaning; it seems to be under a > riveted plate and I can't see any way to get it at it, or even just to > remove the cover for the option cards. Is there a trick to this that I am > missing? I have looked around for manuals, but there don't seem to be any > online. I am also unsure how to remove the option cards, do I just turn the > plastic knob clockwise? It is stiff and I don't want to apply too much force > and break something. THis family of machines (DECmate/Pro/Rainbow) are very easy to strip down into FRUs, and almost impossible to repair, inm that it's very hard to conenct them up unmless everythign is in the right place in the case. But anyway, from, what I rememebr.... You start by taking the end cover off the cardcage. Then unplug all the cables fro mteh top of the PCBs -- some go to the drives, there may be a jumber cable ewbtween 2 video boards, etc). Then pull out the plastic tab handle on a PCB as far as it ill go and turn it (I think anticlockwise) by 1/4 of a turn. THis will spred the conenctor contacts, the boards then side out of the end of the cardcage. With the PSU and drives removed (the latter slide out frontwards, there's spring tab in the usual way),you'll see a number othumbscrews along the chasiss flange in front of the cardcage (IIRC). Loosen these off a bit at a time untill they're all free, then the motherbvoard sildes out towards the back of the machine I think the rest of it is obvious. > > I also just noticed that it is missing the power switch, don't suppose > anyone has one going spare? It looks like probably any DEC rocker switch > would be OK. You can see the type I mean by looking at this > http://www.recycledgoods.com/zoom.aspx?productID=19036. I think it's a standard DPST rocker switch. I suspect anything rated for mains that will fit in the hole will work. > > Incidentally, I opened up the PSU to clean that out. It looks pretty bad: > there are quite a few patch wires there, extra components clearly added > after it was built, components that look poorly placed, two resistors > soldered together in series by their leads, an inductor soldered with large > blobs of solder that look worse than anything even I could do. I am left > wondering if this typical of these PSUs or if I have just got something that > has been hacked about. > Ouch!. Modifications were not uncommon,but it sounds like yours has been got at ;-( Last time I worked on one of these suppleis I needed a tamperproof torx driver to get one of the PCB fixing screws out. Did you? If not, it's a fair sign somebody has been there before you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 29 14:30:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:30:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <16fd01cd2578$752318b0$6600a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 28, 12 04:52:25 pm Message-ID: > > > 20 socket and a BS1363 plgu. O and a BS1362 cartridge fuse. Heck, I even > > keep defective connnectors as sometimes you an make one good one from the > > bits of 2 defective ones. > > Can someone imagine the house of Tony? :) I suspect it's much like the houses of most people here. There are classic computers, spares for classic computers, tools, test instruments, etc everywhere. And books of course. I really don't see why it's so odd to keep bits of broken connector. I don;t know if you know the UK mains plug, but the pins are quite substantial pieces of brass, which are useful for making mounting blocks, etc. And I can't beleive you've never needed a spare contact for some type of connector which you could take from a broken one. Quite apart from not having moneu to waste, it's not easy to jsut go out and buy such thigns any more. Having the right bit in the junk box saves a lot of time. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 15:31:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120429125946.W91323@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 28 Apr 2012, Murray McCullough wrote: > I came across some interesting reading the other day in a library book > that I'm sorry I can't remember its name. It essentially said: Can one > subscribe to the theory that vintage computers, such as the Coleco > ADAM, went extinct because they used cassette drives where one spent > more time finding information and recording such which greatly slowed > down processing thereby defeating the purpose of electronic computing? Now I'm wodering, could the conveniently non-attributed "came across some interesting reading" question may not have been disingenuous, and somewhat rhetorical? I have never considered the Coleco Adam to have ANY historical significance, and tend to assume that any mention of it is an attempt at comprehensive completeness, or personal fondness. Yet, it turns out that C. Murray McCullough is the author of a history about microcomputers. On the cover of it, he gives Adam a position of greater importance than the others that he mentions: ADAM (in ORANGE, the others are in white) APPLE II TRS-80 MODEL I ZENITH HEATHKIT In the index (I could not get Amazon's "Look Inside" to show me any of the text past the Preamble, which doesn't get to the time of microcomputers), He has 25 entries for "Adam", enormously disproportionate (12 for "Commodore" PLUS 6 for "COMMODORE", 2 for TRS-80, . . . ) Dare I guess what Murray's first computer was? (Baby duck syndrome?) Nevertheless, the writing style looks intersting, and I may seek out a copy. "JPL (Job Control Language)"??!? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 15:40:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120429133902.Y91323@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Residual Current Device. I am not sure if that trem crosses the Pond, > it's a device that detects an imbalance of current in the live and > neutral wires, indicating a leak to earth somewhere, agd turns off the > supply if that imbalance is greater than a certain (small, perahps 30mA) > value. Called a GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) here. Now often GCFI or GFCI ("circuit" needed to be mentioned) From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 15:55:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:55:01 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C1FA501-B3B5-4B7E-9675-5A1221124398@gmail.com> On Apr 29, 2012, at 3:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Residual Current Device. I am not sure if that trem crosses the Pond, > it's a device that detects an imbalance of current in the live and > neutral wires, indicating a leak to earth somewhere, agd turns off the > supply if that imbalance is greater than a certain (small, perahps 30mA) > value. I think that's what we call a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor), which we usually use to keep ourselves safe when we're trying to vacuum water out of the basement (or using toasters near a sink, or all other manner of inadvisable things). Our electric code requires GFCI outlets pretty much anywhere there could be water, such as outside, near sinks and hot water heaters, etc. We don't *usually* have GFCI breakers in our boxes, but they do exist; in residential installations, it's almost always up to the outlet to provide it unless it's for something purpose-built to get wet (like pool pumps). The 2008 National Electric Code requires Arc Fault Circuit Interruptor breakers on pretty much every circuit in the house, but retrofitting older boxes to use them is usually a non-starter because a lot of the house wiring done in the '80s and later by contractors cutting corners uses the "backstab" method where the wires are inserted straight into a hole in the back of the outlet; a single spring clip maintains contact with the wire, so they tend to arc like crazy once they've seen enough use to loosen the spring. Your AFCI breakers would be shutting off the power to half the house all the time. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 15:57:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:57:53 -0700 Subject: Disadvantages of solid state media (was Re: Advantages... In-Reply-To: References: <4F9BF28B.12504.118E0E8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 28, 12 01:37:15 pm, Message-ID: <4F9D48E1.3151.10E447A@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 20:42, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't recall that. If it's for the fan motor, I don't see any reason > why it coul;dn't be driven by a DC motor, or indeed by some form of > heat engine. Provided the device doesn't overheat (that is that the > airflow is sufficient) it should be fine. Take a look at the block diagram near the "Chip Destruct/" pin. Note that the 115vac is connected to the output of the inverter that feeds into the 25102. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Apr 29 15:59:27 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:59:27 +1200 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <1b4801cd2642$10235360$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <1b4801cd2642$10235360$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: I concur. I bought one of these dirt cheap ones from China too. Forget the documentation and go for what's written on the circuit board. It worked for almost everything I wanted to do (Mostly 27xx work). I say almost everything because for some reason it couldn't cope with 2716 CMOS EPROMS? (standard 2716 was fine). Point is, I need to burn EPROMS only once it a blue moon and it WAS dirt cheap. If burning EPROMs was a major activity, I would have gone for more expensive and better support. It has its faults but hey, it cost next to nothing. Horses for courses..... Tez On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > I made the mistake of purchasing one of those Thai units. Don't waste >> your money. Flakey software, scattered documentation, zero support >> (doesn't answer e-mails). >> > > Me too. And I loved it. The software was strange, scattered > documentation, zero support, but I never need it either. I know how to > program an EPROM and it just worked for that (and PLDs and microcontrollers > too). > > Cheap tool, cheap service. But in my case it worked. > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 16:04:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 17:04:30 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90408073-39AC-42A9-9B12-222D667C4981@gmail.com> On Apr 29, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I suspect it's much like the houses of most people here. There are > classic computers, spares for classic computers, tools, test instruments, > etc everywhere. And books of course. Certainly like the areas of my house my wife has ceded to me (the office and half the basement, which is quite enough). There are plenty of books from both of us everywhere, of course. > I really don't see why it's so odd to keep bits of broken connector. I > don;t know if you know the UK mains plug, but the pins are quite > substantial pieces of brass, which are useful for making mounting blocks, > etc. And I can't beleive you've never needed a spare contact for some > type of connector which you could take from a broken one. That may be true for UK mains plugs; Alexandre is from Brazil, and I don't know about their plugs, but I know US plugs are worth next to nothing for parts. We don't even have fuses in them, I guess because we really like house fires (exception: a lot of Christmas tree lights had tiny fuses in the plug, but I don't even know if that's true with the LED ones now). Spare connectors, though, yeah. I have a whole bin of 'em. In fact, I've found my parts collection dramatically easier to use since I've put them all in bins (and for the rest of the English- speaking world, I don't mean the rubbish type) and sorted them. It has the bonus effect of reducing the visible footprint of the ridiculous amount of cables I have, which earns me free brownie points. :-) - Dave From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sun Apr 29 16:21:40 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 23:21:40 +0200 Subject: ibm funky 3 1/2 inch disk In-Reply-To: <20120426162342.J62812@shell.lmi.net> References: <1335480731.8873.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120426162342.J62812@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1335734500.23396.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tor 2012-04-26 klockan 16:24 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > i have one of the IBM:made minidisk ? (looks a bit like a normal 3-1/2 > > inch floppy) drives. > > Which model? > > > Any source for disks ? > > for which model? > > > It is of the magneto optical variety and its interface is scsi 2. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 16:24:12 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 17:24:12 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120429133902.Y91323@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120429133902.Y91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6152B48D-48F8-4E69-95EE-1723B8266AE8@gmail.com> On Apr 29, 2012, at 4:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> [1] Residual Current Device. I am not sure if that trem crosses the Pond, >> it's a device that detects an imbalance of current in the live and >> neutral wires, indicating a leak to earth somewhere, agd turns off the >> supply if that imbalance is greater than a certain (small, perahps 30mA) >> value. > > Called a GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) here. > Now often GCFI or GFCI ("circuit" needed to be mentioned) All my electrician friends get tetchy if I call it just a "GFI", so I stick with the ETLA. - Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 29 16:35:18 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 17:35:18 -0400 Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <4F9D8B54.9020305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <7E55C47056224CA6A1E5D6138732CD7D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4F9D8B54.9020305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F9DB416.2060005@verizon.net> On 04/29/2012 02:41 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/29/2012 12:25 PM, TeoZ wrote: > >> >> Home computing never took off until the software industry exploded. >> There are tons of computer models like the ADAM and my Timex 2068 that >> never went anywhere because there was little software available for the >> masses. Plenty of people had computers before the 80's, they just tended >> to write their own software as needed. Not quite true or complete. Text editors, Spreadsheets, and databases started to appear before 1978 for many of the machines. The problem was mostly mass storage as cassette tape had one problem, it was not random access nor block replaceable. Back in 1978 a new car was about $5K and a floppy with controller was around 700-2000 bucks (1978-dollars). I even took a Data Structures class at the college and challened the fact that my NS* horizon was with floppy and running UCSD Pascal P-system in early '79 with an Heath H19 terminal with a screen oriented editor. The rest of the class was still punching cards on an 029 doe a Univac-1108. I may have been bleeding edge but not by much. In early 1979 a Northstar* Horizon with enough ram and disk to run P-system was about $2500. What made home computing take off was the cost, software and packaged systems ready to go. The bigger S100 houses, Apple, TRS80, Commodore were very quick to understand that and had success. The rest really did exist int he realm of games and entry level toys. Games were a successful space but one that was very dynamic and tended to push Moore's law to the limit. > I tend to think the lack of floppy disk with a real OS , killed the > 8 bitters > out there. I find that a rather irrational statement. I started running CPM in '77 with floppies. I considered then as now that mass storage is an element in the chain to making and compute engine go from a controller level to a flexible system. What happened in the mid 80s was the realization that the software in place was getting bigger and the problems people wanted to solve (databases and spreadsheets) were growing and floppies were inadequate storage and 64K of ram didn't fit it all without awkward overlays and all. > I was just looking at some old mags from the 80's,PC DOS and > CP/M was it for general purpose OS's. I wanted to get a 6809 machine > back then, but I could not find software to with the hardware. > Ben. > Sudden realization that by the 80s computing had been around a while? It was. IBM was a legitimizer of something that was more than 5-6 years old by then and most of the software for it was lofted 8bit stuff. Reminder why was the upD78108 (V20) such a big deal, it executed 8080 code directly and allowed a PC to run the already vast library of CP/M and other 8080 code. It didn't hurt that much of that code was freeware or shareware. I was interested in computers from very young as a child as they were amazing machines. By time I'd seen some of the earlier machines in the early to mid 60s I'd a rudimentary idea of what was inside and how they worked. I wanted one! Everything after that was mostly getting to be an engineer and one of those computer for myself.. not in any particular order. As it worked out I was in college when I was tasked with building a then very new 8008 running at a plodding 180khz or about 1khz/$. Everything after that was cutting edge or close to it. As a result most of my collection are machine I had or worked with from "back in the day". Those that were not mine to keep were acquired again at later years as free or cheap to fill the wish of having what I'd worked with. Oh, and I"m still working with cool stuff. Just can't quit yet. Allison I From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 17:12:10 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:12:10 -0300 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia References: Message-ID: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> > I suspect it's much like the houses of most people here. There are > classic computers, spares for classic computers, tools, test instruments, > etc everywhere. And books of course. Indeed > I really don't see why it's so odd to keep bits of broken connector. I > don;t know if you know the UK mains plug, but the pins are quite > substantial pieces of brass, which are useful for making mounting blocks, > etc. And I can't beleive you've never needed a spare contact for some > type of connector which you could take from a broken one. It isn't odd, but of course the level you takes the repairability of your devices is something beyond common. I know (a bit of) the britsh plug and it is very sturdy, I believe it is repairabile and it is nice to have some parts around. As I said, I'm just curious of how much old things you have stored in your house :) I'm myself into this situation. Tons of things and I know no place to store, my house is still full. I need to take a pkzip session into it :o) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 29 17:23:18 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Cookers, water heaters, shwoer heaters, etc normally have their own > dedicated circuits fused at 30A, 32A, 45A or even 60A. It is rare > for these devices ot be plugged in, it is possible [...] In my - admittedly rather limited - experience, water heaters tend to be wired in, with no explicit connector, whereas stoves[%] tend to be plugged in with a rather heavy and distinctive four-conductor plug. (Two mains phases, neutral, and ground.) Clothes dryers - which you didn't mention unless UK English is even stranger to my eyes than I thought - are like stoves in this regard. I'm not sure what a "shower heater" is; if it's for warming up the room before/during showering, I'd expect that to be wired in unless it's a portable room heater which just happens to get used for that room. Of course, not all stoves, nor clothes dryers nor water heaters, are electric. I'm talking about just the electric ones here, the ones where the principal energy source is electric mains. [%] Are these "cooker"s? I'm talking about the thing that produces heat for preparing food in a kitchen. Often bundled into the same appliance as an oven; indeed, without an oven there's a tendency to call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 17:23:46 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <1b4801cd2642$10235360$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > I concur. I bought one of these dirt cheap ones from China too. Forget > the documentation and go for what's written on the circuit board. > > It worked for almost everything I wanted to do (Mostly 27xx work). I say > almost everything because for some reason it couldn't cope with 2716 CMOS > EPROMS? (standard 2716 was fine). Interesting. That's exactly what it wouldn't do reliably for me. It seemed fine for CMOS EPROMS that used 12.5V Vpp but had significant problems with those needing, e.g. 21V. The onboard charge pump did not have the moxie for older NMOS devices and could program + verify only about 1 in 4. Apparently this was well known in the Willem community. I ended up buying a little kit to replace the wimpy pass transistor and step-up with an adapter that used an external supply. At this point it worked, but was so inconvenient that I retired it. As always, Caveat Emptor, past performance is no guarantee of future returns, look both ways before crossing the street, etc, etc. Steve -- From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 17:36:27 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 23:36:27 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F9DC26B.8090707@gmail.com> On 29/04/2012 23:23, Mouse wrote: >> Cookers, water heaters, shwoer heaters, etc normally have their own >> dedicated circuits fused at 30A, 32A, 45A or even 60A. It is rare >> for these devices ot be plugged in, it is possible [...] > In my - admittedly rather limited - experience, water heaters tend to > be wired in, with no explicit connector, whereas stoves[%] tend to be > plugged in with a rather heavy and distinctive four-conductor plug. > (Two mains phases, neutral, and ground.) Clothes dryers - which you > didn't mention unless UK English is even stranger to my eyes than I > thought - are like stoves in this regard. I think in the UK "clothes dryers" would be called "tumble dryers" http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/r/tumble%20dryers/0_0_0/ and in the UK these tend to be on a normal outlet. > I'm not sure what a "shower > heater" is; if it's for warming up the room before/during showering, > I'd expect that to be wired in unless it's a portable room heater which > just happens to get used for that room. Instant water heater :- http://www.diy.com/nav/rooms/bathrooms/showering/showers/electric-showers/Triton-Cara-Electric-Shower-White-8-5kw-10517829 must be hard wired, i.e. no plug and socket and switched pull cord or external switch. > Of course, not all stoves, nor clothes dryers nor water heaters, are > electric. I'm talking about just the electric ones here, the ones > where the principal energy source is electric mains. > > [%] Are these "cooker"s? I'm talking about the thing that produces > heat for preparing food in a kitchen. Often bundled into the same > appliance as an oven; indeed, without an oven there's a tendency to > call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that > comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/r/cookers/0_0_0/ assuming it will show you out side English speaking East Pondia... must be hard wired... > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Apr 29 17:32:10 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 23:32:10 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F9DC16A.9000906@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/04/2012 23:12, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I'm myself into this situation. Tons of things and I know no place to > store, my house is still full. I need to take a pkzip session into it :o) At least that's lossless. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 17:58:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9DC16A.9000906@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9DC16A.9000906@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120429155653.O99230@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm myself into this situation. Tons of things and I know no place to > > store, my house is still full. I need to take a pkzip session into it :o) On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > At least that's lossless. Before going that route, try a good DEFRAG. There are probably some things scattered all over, with many half-full boxes. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 18:03:32 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:03:32 -0300 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia References: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9DC16A.9000906@dunnington.plus.com> <20120429155653.O99230@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1cf501cd265c$522eadd0$6600a8c0@tababook> >> > I'm myself into this situation. Tons of things and I know no place >> > to >> > store, my house is still full. I need to take a pkzip session into it >> > :o) > On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> At least that's lossless. > Before going that route, try a good DEFRAG. There are probably some > things scattered all over, with many half-full boxes. That's what I'm doing now...There are SO MANY individual parts that I'm going bananas :P From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 29 18:11:19 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9DC26B.8090707@gmail.com> References: <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9DC26B.8090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201204292311.TAA09915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Cookers, water heaters, shwoer heaters, [...] > I think in the UK "clothes dryers" would be called "tumble dryers" > http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/r/tumble%20dryers/0_0_0/ I think you're probably right. > and in the UK these tend to be on a normal outlet. I don't know whether your dryers are more energy-efficient than ours or what, but over here, that isn't enough power. A typical mains outlet circuit is rated 15A 115V, whereas a dryer is four times that: double the current and double the voltage (I just checked mine and the breaker is rated 30A, and it's fed both phases and thus is what we call a 230V circuit - sometimes called 220V or 240V, depending on whether you think of single-phase voltage as 110, 115, or 120 volts). My stove has 40A breakers and it too uses both mains phases. I don't know to what extent the breakers are typically rated higher than they need to be; in my case, they are not overestimates at all. I just now tried each one, putting an ammeter on the wire and then turning the thing on, and in each case max draw was, within measurement error, equal to the rating of the breaker. >> I'm not sure what a "shower heater" is; [...] > Instant water heater :- Ah. Over here I would expect that to be wired in. I don't know whether the electrical code requires it or not (indeed, it might depend on jurisdiction; there's a lot of commonality aomng electrical codes, but there are differences, sometimes surprising differences). >> [...] stoves[%] [...] >> [%] Are these "cooker"s? > http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/r/cookers/0_0_0/ Yes, that does appear to be what West Pondian calls a `stove'. One of the things, rather, since the same word is sometimes used for a wood-burning device whose primary purpose is heating rooms, not food. (I suspect this is a historical artifact, a holdover from the days when room heat and cooking typically used the same thing.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 18:20:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:20:13 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:23, Mouse wrote: > [%] Are these "cooker"s? I'm talking about the thing that produces > heat for preparing food in a kitchen. Often bundled into the same > appliance as an oven; indeed, without an oven there's a tendency to > call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that > comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. Both my wall oven and countertop range (Jenn-Air if it matters) are permanently wired in.--a bit of BX (armored flexible cable) connecting the appliance to the wall box. My water heater is the same way, as is the heat pump, although the compressor unit has its own fused outdoor disconnect in addition to the breaker in the distribution panel. Something about "code"... A bigger issue for me is that the wiring from the panel for these heavy-current-draw appliances is aluminum (copper for the general lighting and receptacles). Among the electricians here, there's no consenus about what it takes to connect it to the copper leads of the appliance. The old timers insist that ordinary wire nuts are fine-- some others insist on the grease-filled (gray) wire nuts. Nobody advocates anything fancier (such as a copper pigtail with compression fitting). I remain puzzled. Obviously the right thing to do would be to replace the wiring from the panel with copper, but I'm not about to go through that agony. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 18:24:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:24:05 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204292311.TAA09915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4F9DC26B.8090707@gmail.com>, <201204292311.TAA09915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F9D6B25.29554.1941E1A@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 19:11, Mouse wrote: > Yes, that does appear to be what West Pondian calls a `stove'. One of > the things, rather, since the same word is sometimes used for a > wood-burning device whose primary purpose is heating rooms, not food. > (I suspect this is a historical artifact, a holdover from the days > when room heat and cooking typically used the same thing.) You mean the thing in the kitchen that I cut and split a couple of cords of firewood for every summer? I've cooked on it when we've had a power outage that lasted more than a day, but it's normally used for room heating. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 29 18:26:36 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 17:26:36 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1cf501cd265c$522eadd0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9DC16A.9000906@dunnington.plus.com> <20120429155653.O99230@shell.lmi.net> <1cf501cd265c$522eadd0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F9DCE2C.8090204@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/29/2012 5:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > That's what I'm doing now...There are SO MANY individual parts that I'm > going bananas :P > Should we send a chimp your way? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 18:34:40 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120429163339.Q99230@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Both my wall oven and countertop range (Jenn-Air if it matters) are My Jenn-Air range is plugged in ("standard" 50A range plug) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 18:35:23 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:35:23 -0300 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia References: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9DC16A.9000906@dunnington.plus.com> <20120429155653.O99230@shell.lmi.net> <1cf501cd265c$522eadd0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4F9DCE2C.8090204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1d3101cd2660$d3f83f30$6600a8c0@tababook> Maybe a pair of blue-eyed blondies... --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 8:26 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia > On 4/29/2012 5:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> That's what I'm doing now...There are SO MANY individual parts that I'm >> going bananas :P >> > Should we send a chimp your way? > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 18:52:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:52:19 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120429163339.Q99230@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120429163339.Q99230@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9D71C3.25249.1ADF630@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 16:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Both my wall oven and countertop range (Jenn-Air if it matters) are > > My Jenn-Air range is plugged in ("standard" 50A range plug) Is your range a drop-in (burners and oven) or built-in (burners only mounted in a countertop)? Oven is a double wall oven, built-in again. Maybe that has something to do with it. How about your dishwasher? --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 29 18:53:36 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Apr 29, 12 07:12:10 pm" Message-ID: <201204292353.q3TNra5v15597818@floodgap.com> > > I suspect it's much like the houses of most people here. There are > > classic computers, spares for classic computers, tools, test instruments, > > etc everywhere. And books of course. > > Indeed I have resolved, and so far stuck to it, to keep my hobby and lab space to two bedrooms. One is the "open" office space with my regular G5 and my active projects, and the other is storage and servers. Anything that doesn't fit in those either gets sold, junked or put in storage. The exception was the Twentieth Anniversary Mac, because I use it for watching TV and some terminal use with MacSSH and Classilla. It also looks really good in the bedroom. Its aphrodisiac qualities have not been evaluated. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- "Closing Time" From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 19:00:50 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 01:00:50 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204292311.TAA09915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9DC26B.8090707@gmail.com> <201204292311.TAA09915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F9DD632.5020008@gmail.com> On 30/04/2012 00:11, Mouse wrote: >>>> Cookers, water heaters, shwoer heaters, [...] >> I think in the UK "clothes dryers" would be called "tumble dryers" >> http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/r/tumble%20dryers/0_0_0/ > I think you're probably right. > >> and in the UK these tend to be on a normal outlet. > I don't know whether your dryers are more energy-efficient than ours or > what, but over here, that isn't enough power. A typical mains outlet > circuit is rated 15A 115V, whereas a dryer is four times that: double > the current and double the voltage (I just checked mine and the breaker > is rated 30A, and it's fed both phases and thus is what we call a 230V > circuit - sometimes called 220V or 240V, depending on whether you think > of single-phase voltage as 110, 115, or 120 volts). Well we get 13 amps at 230 volts so almost twice the power. And if my experiences of visiting Canada reflect West Pondia in general, then our tumble dryers (like much else including the clothes washing machines) are much smaller. In the condo I had for skiing at Tremblant the utilitiy/laundry room was about as big as the whole apartment in Andora. > My stove has 40A breakers and it too uses both mains phases. > > I don't know to what extent the breakers are typically rated higher > than they need to be; in my case, they are not overestimates at all. I > just now tried each one, putting an ammeter on the wire and then > turning the thing on, and in each case max draw was, within measurement > error, equal to the rating of the breaker. > >>> I'm not sure what a "shower heater" is; [...] >> Instant water heater :- > Ah. Over here I would expect that to be wired in. I don't know > whether the electrical code requires it or not (indeed, it might depend > on jurisdiction; there's a lot of commonality aomng electrical codes, > but there are differences, sometimes surprising differences). > >>> [...] stoves[%] [...] >>> [%] Are these "cooker"s? >> http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/r/cookers/0_0_0/ > Yes, that does appear to be what West Pondian calls a `stove'. One of > the things, rather, since the same word is sometimes used for a > wood-burning device whose primary purpose is heating rooms, not food. > (I suspect this is a historical artifact, a holdover from the days when > room heat and cooking typically used the same thing.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 29 19:12:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 17:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9D71C3.25249.1ADF630@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120429163339.Q99230@shell.lmi.net> <4F9D71C3.25249.1ADF630@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120429170717.C99230@shell.lmi.net> > > > Both my wall oven and countertop range (Jenn-Air if it matters) are > > My Jenn-Air range is plugged in ("standard" 50A range plug) On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is your range a drop-in (burners and oven) or built-in (burners only > mounted in a countertop)? Oven is a double wall oven, built-in > again. Built-in 4 burners (burners replaceable in pairs with "glass-top", grill, etc. Oven is Tappan? gas From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 20:02:40 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A bigger issue for me is that the wiring from the panel for these > heavy-current-draw appliances is aluminum (copper for the general > lighting and receptacles). Among the electricians here, there's no > consenus about what it takes to connect it to the copper leads of the > appliance. The old timers insist that ordinary wire nuts are fine-- > some others insist on the grease-filled (gray) wire nuts. Nobody > advocates anything fancier (such as a copper pigtail with compression > fitting). Wasn't aluminum house wiring outlawed in the US during the 70s? I recall something about a rash of fires due to wiring in device boxes cracking at the screw terminals. -- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 20:03:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:03:25 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120429170717.C99230@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4F9D71C3.25249.1ADF630@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120429170717.C99230@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9D826D.1457.1EF0D85@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 17:12, Fred Cisin wrote: > Built-in 4 burners (burners replaceable in pairs with "glass-top", > grill, etc. > > Oven is Tappan? gas I'd kill to have natural gas, but the only option here is propane-- and I don't want that stuff anywhere near my house (heavier than air, so a leak will tend to collect in pockets in the basement. Wonder if I could collect the methane from the septic tank... --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 29 20:12:54 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9D826D.1457.1EF0D85@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 29, 12 06:03:25 pm" Message-ID: <201204300112.q3U1Csn915139004@floodgap.com> > > Built-in 4 burners (burners replaceable in pairs with "glass-top", > > grill, etc. > > > > Oven is Tappan? gas > > I'd kill to have natural gas, but the only option here is propane-- > and I don't want that stuff anywhere near my house (heavier than air, > so a leak will tend to collect in pockets in the basement. Water heater and rangetop are gas, but strangely the oven is electric. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never trust a computer you can't lift. -- Mac rollout, 24 January 1984 ----- From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 29 20:14:59 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: , <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Wasn't aluminum house wiring outlawed in the US during the 70s? I recall > something about a rash of fires due to wiring in device boxes cracking at the > screw terminals. > There also was a corrosion issue when aluminum wire was used with copper terminal outlets and switches. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 29 20:43:11 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:43:11 -0600 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In article , Steven Hirsch writes: > I highly recommend the Andromeda programmer: > > www.arlabs.com They don't say how the device connects to the PC. Is it serial port, parallel port or USB? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 20:54:33 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:54:33 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: , <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3142002B-1DEB-4EE9-BFE8-2B22AD44793D@gmail.com> On Apr 29, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> A bigger issue for me is that the wiring from the panel for these >> heavy-current-draw appliances is aluminum (copper for the general >> lighting and receptacles). Among the electricians here, there's no >> consenus about what it takes to connect it to the copper leads of the >> appliance. The old timers insist that ordinary wire nuts are fine-- >> some others insist on the grease-filled (gray) wire nuts. Nobody >> advocates anything fancier (such as a copper pigtail with compression >> fitting). > > Wasn't aluminum house wiring outlawed in the US during the 70s? I recall something about a rash of fires due to wiring in device boxes cracking at the screw terminals. Yes and no. Regular wiring (light and outlet circuits) must be copper, but bulk stuff (especially the residential service coming into the breaker box from the transformer) is high-bulk aluminum. I'm not 100% certain (I'm not an electrician), but I believe a lot of the problems from aluminum house wiring came from a combination of cold-flowing aluminum on wire joints (which eventually produced loose joints and thus arcs) and overloaded circuits with underspecified wire that copper (with its lower resistive coefficient) would have handled just fine. I wouldn't be surprised if the really high-current wire to an air conditioning compressor were high-bulk aluminum. It's one of the few things it's useful for in house wiring. In general, all-aluminum house wiring is more a sign that someone's done the wiring on the cheap long ago, so it's often more of a canary than an actual hazard. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 20:58:34 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:58:34 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204300112.q3U1Csn915139004@floodgap.com> References: <201204300112.q3U1Csn915139004@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2012, at 9:12 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Built-in 4 burners (burners replaceable in pairs with "glass-top", >>> grill, etc. >>> >>> Oven is Tappan? gas >> >> I'd kill to have natural gas, but the only option here is propane-- >> and I don't want that stuff anywhere near my house (heavier than air, >> so a leak will tend to collect in pockets in the basement. > > Water heater and rangetop are gas, but strangely the oven is electric. I'd prefer that, actually. There are high-end ovens where you pay extra for that. Some of the difference is highly subjective (i.e. the debate over whether electric ovens produce "dry" heat that gas ovens don't sounds like the exact same debate for which I lambaste audiophiles), but I find that the thermostat control on an electric oven is more exact. I couldn't tell you why. Cheap models of all kinds are atrocious in any case. To add to the previous discussion, our clothes dryer plugs into a standard 110v GFI (GFCI, if you'd prefer) outlet. Of course, it's a gas clothes dryer because we live in the city and have cheap natural gas, so we pay half as much to dry our clothes (line drying is just a step too far for us, except for the baby's cloth diaper shells, which are supposed to be). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 21:14:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:14:57 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: , <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F9D9331.22713.2308E42@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 21:02, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Wasn't aluminum house wiring outlawed in the US during the 70s? I > recall something about a rash of fires due to wiring in device boxes > cracking at the screw terminals. Outlawed for lighting and receptacle use. The problem is that aluminum not only oxidizes almost immediately, but that it deforms (cold-flows) easily. When used in normal lighting and utility fixtures (i.e. outlets), the aluminum eventually forms a resistive connection under the binding screw of a switch or outlet. The heat of such a contact further deforms the aluminum and you get a fire. Most of the wiring used in that manner was 12-14 AWG, solid strand. While there were specialty switches and receptacles for use with aluminum wire, they didn't work very well. A method used to ameliorate existing situations where aluminum is employed is to use a special hydraulic tool that crimps a copper pigtail onto the aluminum wire. Aluminum is still code for high-current appliance wiring, where multi- strand cable is used. Indeed, it's still used for power drops in some locales as well as high-tension power distribution. FWIW, my house was built in the 1980s. The feed from the transformer sitting in the front yard going to the distribution panel is aluminum and it was replaced about 8 years ago. I'd be surprised if there weren't a fair amount of use of aluminum throughout the world for high-current distribution. See for example, IEC 61089. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Apr 29 21:39:00 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:39:00 -0400 Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <4F9D8B54.9020305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <7E55C47056224CA6A1E5D6138732CD7D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4F9D8B54.9020305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F9DFB44.2050903@atarimuseum.com> I think Home Computing never took off until computers had something useful that laymen could use them for and they were easy enough for non-technical person's to use. Once things like Windows 95, AOL with Instant Messaging and then with gateways out to the Internet became more prevalent, then you saw more layman using computers and they became more acceptable. The 70's, 80's and early 90's they were still geekdom realm products and no teenage girl, stay at home mom or basement "future" blogger would be caught dead being known to have a computer. As for computers in the 80's and such... home computing's problem was people wanted the same features as the computers at work, to be at work with an 80 column system, 10mb HD, good quality software and then come home to an 8bit computer, with floppies, 40 column video and wannabe attempts at business-type applications just didn't cut it. ben wrote: > On 4/29/2012 12:25 PM, TeoZ wrote: > >> >> Home computing never took off until the software industry exploded. >> There are tons of computer models like the ADAM and my Timex 2068 that >> never went anywhere because there was little software available for the >> masses. Plenty of people had computers before the 80's, they just tended >> to write their own software as needed. > > I tend to think the lack of floppy disk with a real OS , killed the > 8 bitters > out there. I was just looking at some old mags from the 80's,PC DOS and > CP/M was it for general purpose OS's. I wanted to get a 6809 machine > back then, but I could not find software to with the hardware. > Ben. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 29 21:40:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:40:29 -0400 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <4F9D2361.15475.7BC8D7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> <4F9D2361.15475.7BC8D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9DFB9D.9090906@neurotica.com> On 04/29/2012 02:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: ... > And so it goes--what could have been a very detailed article was, > instead a question mark--and that's not likely to be remedied anytime > soon--I certainly don't want to write an article for the Annals about > it. > > My point is that many of the old farts here experienced the history > and so have a very different perception that someone who does a > little research of printed material and then writes a book. > > "Vass you dere, Shollie?" is a very relevant question in any computer > history work. But remember, "been there, done that" is completely worthless because it isn't "real information". Instead of trusting the word of people who saw and did it, no, that's just anecdotal. Someone who DIDN'T see or do it, then gets to write about it, THEN that's "reliable information". Wheeee! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 29 21:51:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:51:11 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com>, , Message-ID: <4F9D9BAF.7322.251BAA1@cclist.sydex.com> If all you are interested in is programming (UV/E)EPROMs, there are a lot of solutions. My interest extended toward programmable logic (PLA/GAL, PEEL, PALCE etc.) in addition which is a little harder to deal with. Xeltek works for me. Some programmers have the ability to identify unnumbered or house- numbered SSI TTL devices, which is also a plus. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 22:04:02 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:04:02 -0500 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: is not an old fart and happens to love old tech its amazing what we were able to do with these things On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 28 Apr 2012, Murray McCullough wrote: > > I came across some interesting reading the other day in a library book > > that I'm sorry I can't remember its name. > > Just as well. There are a LOT of books written by people well below the > median of this group. Well, to be honest, HALF OF US are below our > median!! > > > ADAM, went extinct because they used cassette drives . . . > (explains the difference between ADAM and TRS80, Apple, and PET) > > I?m not sure if this applied to floppy drive systems but computing > > never really took off until hard drives came along in the 16-bit > > world, i.e., the mid-80s! > > No. > "never really took off" is a euphemism for ("I didn't know about them > until") > ANYBODY who paid ANY attention to them in the late 1970s knew that it was > INEVITABLE and SOON that they would replace typewriters ON EVERY DESK! > > It applies to ALL of us, but is most easily recognizable in TV > jaw-flappers, and NON-HISTORIAN NON- (well self-proclaimed)EXPERT authors > of histories. > "Computers existed, sort of, in prehistoric times." (They were around, but > I didn't care) > "Computers first really "took off" when . . ." (that's when I noticed > them) > > THAT is why there are SO MANY amateur histories that mention and > marginalize the "pre-dawn" times (an acknowledgement that they were > already there!), but essentially have the history of computers start with > Apple ][/TRS80/Pet OR IBM-PC (5150) OR AT (5170) OR Mac OR HARD DRIVES > (Wordstar (and other word processing), Visicalc (and other spreadsheets > ("VisiClones")) didn't really exist until I got interested) as being the > "starting point", "when things took off" (when I got into it) > > > It's not just computers. It is a normal human trait to acknowledge the > existence of a pre-history (to be marginalized as insignificant), but > assert that the real beginning was when WE got into it. > Look at the PBS "documentary" "Berkeley in the 60's" - "It all started > when we were sitting around in New York, and heard about what was > going on out there, . . . " (The important "starting point" was when WE > heard about it!) > > > Classic computing aficionados, particularly > > on this site, may have a different take on things. > > Because we have an interest in the computers that existed before y'all > cared and/or we REALIZE that we came in late, and we're INTERESTED in > what had already been happening. OR we're just a bunch of old farts who > wish that we could go back half a century. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 29 22:10:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 23:10:24 -0400 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: References: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9E02A0.7020300@neurotica.com> On 04/29/2012 11:04 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > is not an old fart and happens to love old tech its amazing what we were > able to do with these things I agree 100%. There was an amazing degree of creativity involved when CPU, memory, and storage resources were so limited. Thirty years ago I wrote real code on machines that had less system memory than a single communications buffer that I typically allocate these days. The change in mindset is amazing! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 22:19:37 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:19:37 -0500 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <4F9E02A0.7020300@neurotica.com> References: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> <4F9E02A0.7020300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: indeed just look at how it changed automation in the industrial world and how much of that gear is still in use............ On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/29/2012 11:04 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > is not an old fart and happens to love old tech its amazing what we were > > able to do with these things > > I agree 100%. There was an amazing degree of creativity involved when > CPU, memory, and storage resources were so limited. Thirty years ago I > wrote real code on machines that had less system memory than a single > communications buffer that I typically allocate these days. The change > in mindset is amazing! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From brain at jbrain.com Sun Apr 29 23:23:12 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 23:23:12 -0500 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> On 4/29/2012 11:09 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 29, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> I believe the Willem programmer may be suitable, it is certainly affordable, >> would that fit the bill? It seems to come from Thailand, although there seem >> to be all sorts of sources on ebay, so I am not sure what the genuine source >> really is. >> >> I am also not averse to buying secondhand, ebay or otherwise, if I can get >> something that is going to be more generally useful than the Willem. > I've heard some pretty bad things about the Willem programmer. > I know others have defended the Willem units, and I'll add my note as a satisfied customer. I did do my research: Be aware most Willems will require a parallel port. Most newer units will also sport a USB port, but it's for power only. Some of the newer units will indeed work with USB. Either way, buy a unit with a socket for an external power supply. The on board charge pump can't do enough with USB supplied power to handle all of the EPROM programming variants. Note that you can build your own Willem, the schematics for the parallel port versions are online: http://www.mcumall.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=100 http://www.digital-circuitry.com/FILES/Willem/Willem_Schematics/willem_SCH3Bx.pdf You can turn the v3 into a v4.5: http://www.py2bbs.qsl.br/willem_pcb45en.php I think there is a Linux programming app (not sure how current it is): http://sourceforge.net/projects/geepro/ Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mole42 at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 12:46:44 2012 From: mole42 at gmail.com (Richard Smith) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:46:44 +0100 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4F9D79CB.3090104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4F9C7B3E.1030504@pico-systems.com> <4F9C416E.1209.24D0416@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9D79CB.3090104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. Richard Smith Technical Director, Mewgull Associates Limited, Bristol "We harvest the sun" Lead Tutor, Centre for Alternative Technology, Machynlleth Sent from my iPad On 29 Apr 2012, at 18:26, ben wrote: > >> Lots of transistors, aren't there? I think of the PB-250--a >> minicomputer (even though the name didn't exist then) with about 300 >> transistors and a mess of diodes. 21 bit words+sign, >> magnetostrictive recirculating memory. Powered from a standard wall >> outlet. Bitsavers has very complete details, including circuit card >> schematics. > > The SMALL and the BIG. Looking at the ICT 1301 around here. > http://www.shedlandz.co.uk/ > Last years open house video was what caught my eye. > http://oldwuzzark.co.uk/exprtvid/od11_big.wmv > > --Chuck > Ben. > > From pinball at telus.net Sun Apr 29 17:02:02 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:02:02 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4F9C7B3E.1030504@pico-systems.com> References: <4F9C7B3E.1030504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4F9DBA5A.90801@telus.net> Jon Elson wrote: > A while ago somebody mentioned thinking about building a > discrete transistor computer. I ran across the link again of > the one I saw (only online) > http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm > > With all SMT, he packs the boards very closely, performance > is of course not so great with discrete junction transistors running > in saturation. > > Jon > Hmm, you know he could compact the transistors even more if he used TTL logic - that would be a great space saver (ducking). Or one could build one out of tubes and didn't mind using a bit more space... John :-#)# From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Apr 29 18:59:40 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:59:40 -0400 Subject: discrete transistor computer Message-ID: > From:?Jon Elson > Date:?Sat, 28 Apr 2012 18:20:30 -0500 > Subject:?discrete transistor computer > A while ago somebody mentioned thinking about building a > discrete transistor computer. ?I ran across the link again of > the one I saw (only online) > http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm > > With all SMT, he packs the boards very closely, performance > is of course not so great with discrete junction transistors running > in saturation. > > Jon The Rhode Island Computer Museum has four discrete transistor computers. A PDP-9 and three PDP-8/S systems. The RCS/RI crew in Providence has a PB-250. -- Michael Thompson From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 00:40:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:40:52 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: , <4F9D79CB.3090104@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <4F9DC374.25972.2ED110C@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. Sounds like plain old RTL--which was certainly available in 1969. --Chuck From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Apr 30 01:57:44 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 07:57:44 +0100 Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <4F9DFB44.2050903@atarimuseum.com> References: <7E55C47056224CA6A1E5D6138732CD7D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4F9D8B54.9020305@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F9DFB44.2050903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 30 April 2012 03:39, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Once things like Windows 95, AOL with Instant Messaging and then with > gateways out to the Internet became more prevalent, then you saw more layman > using computers and they became more acceptable. ? The 70's, 80's and early > 90's they were still geekdom realm products and no teenage girl, stay at > home mom or basement "future" blogger would be caught dead being known to > have a computer. To a certain extent. My experience here in the UK in the 1980s was that they did exist - I was married to one of them for a time. But I think that comes back to the "useful for something" argument - I lots of people through using the group chat and email facilities on Prestel / Micronet 800, (early viewdata-format dialup service, see www.viewdata.org.uk) so it was a bit more like the sort of environment you see on facebook etc. It was entertainment and a way for them to communicate without leaving the house. I'm still in contact with a lady today that I first met in the 1980s when she was using her daughter's Amstrad 6128 to access Prestel.. I knew others who had used the business side of the service at work, found the fun bits, and "brought it home"... Of course, it seemed like almost everybody I knew used Prestel/Micronet, but that's because for a shy teenager it was the easiest way I had to make friends! In hindsight, I know that the number of people who had even heard of it, never mind subscribed, was minuscule, and that shows up the other points being made in this thread - one's perception of how important something was is coloured by one's own experience. (In my case, I think Prestel and it's ilk was important enough for me to set up a website about it. But that's mainly because nobody else had.) I hope I don't go too overboard though! Rob From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Apr 30 02:55:51 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:55:51 +0100 Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: References: <7E55C47056224CA6A1E5D6138732CD7D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4F9D8B54.9020305@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F9DFB44.2050903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Rob wrote: > On 30 April 2012 03:39, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Once things like Windows 95, AOL with Instant Messaging and then with > gateways out to the Internet became more prevalent, then you saw more layman > using computers and they became more acceptable. ? The 70's, 80's and early > 90's they were still geekdom realm products and no teenage girl, stay at > home mom or basement "future" blogger would be caught dead being known to > have a computer. Heh. There were a few young women I knew when I was a teenager in this hobby. I think the ratio was about 99 to 1 or something. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Under the Obama plan, NASA will spend $100 billion on human spaceflight over the next 10 years in order to accomplish nothing" -Robert Zubrin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 30 02:57:07 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 00:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <4F9DFB44.2050903@atarimuseum.com> References: <7E55C47056224CA6A1E5D6138732CD7D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4F9D8B54.9020305@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F9DFB44.2050903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I think Home Computing never took off until computers had something useful > that laymen could use them for and they were easy enough for non-technical > person's to use. > > Once things like Windows 95, AOL with Instant Messaging and then with > gateways out to the Internet became more prevalent, then you saw more layman > using computers and they became more acceptable. The 70's, 80's and early > 90's they were still geekdom realm products and no teenage girl, stay at home > mom or basement "future" blogger would be caught dead being known to have a > computer. > > As for computers in the 80's and such... home computing's problem was people > wanted the same features as the computers at work, to be at work with an 80 > column system, 10mb HD, good quality software and then come home to an 8bit > computer, with floppies, 40 column video and wannabe attempts at > business-type applications just didn't cut it. I think CP/M provided a reasonable imitation of those 80-column systems. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 30 04:13:38 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:13:38 +0200 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <000b01cd26b1$8b0cc830$a1265890$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Jim Brain > Verzonden: maandag 30 april 2012 6:23 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers > > On 4/29/2012 11:09 AM, David Riley wrote: > > On Apr 29, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > >> I believe the Willem programmer may be suitable, it is certainly > >> affordable, would that fit the bill? It seems to come from Thailand, > >> although there seem to be all sorts of sources on ebay, so I am not > >> sure what the genuine source really is. > >> > >> I am also not averse to buying secondhand, ebay or otherwise, if I > >> can get something that is going to be more generally useful than the Willem. > > I've heard some pretty bad things about the Willem programmer. > > > I know others have defended the Willem units, and I'll add my note as a satisfied > customer. I did do my research: > > Be aware most Willems will require a parallel port. Most newer units will also > sport a USB port, but it's for power only. > Some of the newer units will indeed work with USB. > Either way, buy a unit with a socket for an external power supply. The on board > charge pump can't do enough with USB supplied power to handle all of the > EPROM programming variants. > > > Note that you can build your own Willem, the schematics for the parallel port > versions are online: > > http://www.mcumall.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=100 > http://www.digital- > circuitry.com/FILES/Willem/Willem_Schematics/willem_SCH3Bx.pdf > > You can turn the v3 into a v4.5: > > http://www.py2bbs.qsl.br/willem_pcb45en.php > > I think there is a Linux programming app (not sure how current it is): > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/geepro/ > > Jim > > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com You can also count me in as a satisfied Willem user, I use the Willem for more modern components and I have a Data I/O 29B for the more vintage parts like Bipolar PROMS. Together with some conversion sockets I can program almost everything . -Rik From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 30 06:32:01 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:32:01 +0200 Subject: Throwaway electronics - Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F9B03C3.6040709@brouhaha.com> <4F9B31A3.2080402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120430133201.97016a1c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:54:11 -0400 Toby Thain wrote: > Then there's the bad caps problem. Almost NONE of these get replaced > even though it's a trivial *component level* repair that doesn't need a > schematic. It seems very likely that more than 99% of LCDs that fail in > this way unnecessarily end up in landfill, when most of the components > would outlive the owner. I am thankfull for this. At the Unix-AG (some kind of hackerspace...) we got lots of nice PeeCeeish machines and good LCDs because they where "dead". Most of them are OK again - with new capacitors... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 30 06:32:55 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:32:55 +0200 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <20120426224949.a8a00518.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120430133255.2da5b037.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:41:37 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. Yes. And you have been trolled. Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 06:56:54 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 07:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Steven Hirsch writes: > >> I highly recommend the Andromeda programmer: >> >> www.arlabs.com > > They don't say how the device connects to the PC. Is it serial port, > parallel port or USB? It connects to the parallel port. -- From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Apr 30 07:16:10 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:16:10 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <096501cd26cb$07699930$163ccb90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Jim Brain wrote: > I know others have defended the Willem units, and I'll add my note as a > satisfied customer. I'll add another. > Be aware most Willems will require a parallel port. Most newer units > will also sport a USB port, but it's for power only. If you decide to use the "USB power" be sure whatever USB port on your computer can handle it. I had mine plugged into one of the "back" ports on my computer and it worked fine. Later, I put the same motherboard in a different case that allowed me to hook up some "front" USB port connectors to the pin headers on the motherboard. Apparently, these ports did not supply enough current and the Willem behaved badly. I was just considering pitching it when it occurred to me to plug it into the back port as before. Sure enough, that fixed it. > Either way, buy a unit with a socket for an external power supply. The > on board charge pump can't do enough with USB supplied power to handle > all of the EPROM programming variants. Yes, after the above experience, I went ahead and rigged up a "wall wart" supply. Bill S. From dave_rowland at btinternet.com Mon Apr 30 04:35:16 2012 From: dave_rowland at btinternet.com (Dave Rowland) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:35:16 +0100 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4F9DC374.25972.2ED110C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9D79CB.3090104@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4F9DC374.25972.2ED110C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck I built one that sounds very similar. It was started by another student and i then added mult and div. Dont know if the initial build was from a design doc. I had the whole thing drawn out on large paper sheet but alas long gone xx -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Chuck Guzis wrote: On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. Sounds like plain old RTL--which was certainly available in 1969. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 30 08:18:45 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:18:45 -0500 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <096501cd26cb$07699930$163ccb90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <096501cd26cb$07699930$163ccb90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201204301321.q3UDLRmn030108@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:16 AM 4/30/2012, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > If you decide to use the "USB power" be sure whatever USB port on your > computer can handle it. I had mine plugged into one of the "back" > ports on my computer and it worked fine. Has anyone made a device that provides a simple indication of the power supplied by a USB port? Or is there a standard for indicating how much a device needs to get from the port? This is obviously a source of consumer frustration. - Joh From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Apr 30 08:39:07 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:39:07 +0200 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <201204301321.q3UDLRmn030108@billy.ezwind.net> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <096501cd26cb$07699930$163ccb90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <201204301321.q3UDLRmn030108@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: From: "John Foust" Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 3:18 PM To: Subject: RE: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers > At 07:16 AM 4/30/2012, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> If you decide to use the "USB power" be sure whatever USB port on your >> computer can handle it. I had mine plugged into one of the "back" >> ports on my computer and it worked fine. > > > Has anyone made a device that provides a simple indication of the power > supplied by a USB port? Or is there a standard for indicating how much > a device needs to get from the port? This is obviously a source of > consumer frustration. > > - Joh Wouldn't that be just a simple 500 mA indicator (digital or analog)? Low-power USB is max 100 mA , and high-power USB is max 500 mA. greetz, - Henk. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 09:07:05 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:07:05 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <096501cd26cb$07699930$163ccb90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <201204301321.q3UDLRmn030108@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <78588796-08CC-4566-94D7-915C7209F504@gmail.com> On Apr 30, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > From: "John Foust" > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 3:18 PM > To: > Subject: RE: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers > >> At 07:16 AM 4/30/2012, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> If you decide to use the "USB power" be sure whatever USB port on your >>> computer can handle it. I had mine plugged into one of the "back" >>> ports on my computer and it worked fine. >> Has anyone made a device that provides a simple indication of the power >> supplied by a USB port? Or is there a standard for indicating how much >> a device needs to get from the port? This is obviously a source of >> consumer frustration. >> - Joh > > > Wouldn't that be just a simple 500 mA indicator (digital or analog)? > Low-power USB is max 100 mA , and high-power USB is max 500 mA. Well. The max from a port is supposed to be 500 mA at 5v (so 2.5W). That's what you'll get from a standard port on a powered hub. Some hub-like devices (e.g. unpowered hubs in keyboards, etc.) siphon off some of that power for themselves, and have to divide it between multiple ports, so they have somewhat more stringent limits. Most USB wall adaptors will supply up to an amp, and there is a "Hi Power USB" or somesuch used to attach external drives to laptops, but that has an augmented plug that you'd notice. As far as a device that provides a simple indication, I suppose you could always slice up an extender cable and put an ammeter in series with the +5v line. The USB device itself is supposed to say how much current it expects to use; on OS X, you can see that value in the System Profiler, but I think whatever the USB equivalent for lspci (is it lsusb?) will do it on most common Unix-ish systems. Devices, of course, can lie about how much power they want to use. There's not really a lot of enforcement aside from circuit breakers which cut off gross overcurrent, and some implementations don't even have them (they'll let a short bridge +5v to GND without so much as a resistor in the way, inasmuch as your superheated cable is not a resistor). - Dave From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Apr 30 09:24:07 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:24:07 -0400 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: which history? computing in general, or home computing?home computing might be more ubiquitous with what the general public might consider. So, could the "real history" start with the vic-20 or perhaps the pet computers or maybe the atari 400s ?I think by the time the c64 came around we were well on our way,the IBM pc's were a bit late to the game commodore and atari were certainly household names, but let's not start that war again. Dan. > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:33:43 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct > > On Sat, 28 Apr 2012, Murray McCullough wrote: > > I came across some interesting reading the other day in a library book > > that I'm sorry I can't remember its name. > > Just as well. There are a LOT of books written by people well below the > median of this group. Well, to be honest, HALF OF US are below our > median!! > > > ADAM, went extinct because they used cassette drives . . . > (explains the difference between ADAM and TRS80, Apple, and PET) > > I?m not sure if this applied to floppy drive systems but computing > > never really took off until hard drives came along in the 16-bit > > world, i.e., the mid-80s! > > No. > "never really took off" is a euphemism for ("I didn't know about them > until") > ANYBODY who paid ANY attention to them in the late 1970s knew that it was > INEVITABLE and SOON that they would replace typewriters ON EVERY DESK! > > It applies to ALL of us, but is most easily recognizable in TV > jaw-flappers, and NON-HISTORIAN NON- (well self-proclaimed)EXPERT authors > of histories. > "Computers existed, sort of, in prehistoric times." (They were around, but > I didn't care) > "Computers first really "took off" when . . ." (that's when I noticed > them) > > THAT is why there are SO MANY amateur histories that mention and > marginalize the "pre-dawn" times (an acknowledgement that they were > already there!), but essentially have the history of computers start with > Apple ][/TRS80/Pet OR IBM-PC (5150) OR AT (5170) OR Mac OR HARD DRIVES > (Wordstar (and other word processing), Visicalc (and other spreadsheets > ("VisiClones")) didn't really exist until I got interested) as being the > "starting point", "when things took off" (when I got into it) > > > It's not just computers. It is a normal human trait to acknowledge the > existence of a pre-history (to be marginalized as insignificant), but > assert that the real beginning was when WE got into it. > Look at the PBS "documentary" "Berkeley in the 60's" - "It all started > when we were sitting around in New York, and heard about what was > going on out there, . . . " (The important "starting point" was when WE > heard about it!) > > > Classic computing aficionados, particularly > > on this site, may have a different take on things. > > Because we have an interest in the computers that existed before y'all > cared and/or we REALIZE that we came in late, and we're INTERESTED in > what had already been happening. OR we're just a bunch of old farts who > wish that we could go back half a century. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 30 09:50:11 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:50:11 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4F9EA6A3.9070600@verizon.net> On 4/30/2012 7:56 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Richard wrote: > >> >> In article , >> Steven Hirsch writes: >> >>> I highly recommend the Andromeda programmer: >>> >>> www.arlabs.com >> >> They don't say how the device connects to the PC. Is it serial port, >> parallel port or USB? > > It connects to the parallel port. It sure looks like they deliberately hide that fact. I spent quite some time on their website, and I was asking the same question. I *did* find an FAQ which was "3. I have a computer with no industry standard ports. How can I connect the programming unit?" The answer is to spend another $100(on top of the already $300) buying a PCMCIA card to add a parallel port. Of course, it's interesting to note that it's "our fault" for not having a parallel port. Not their fault for not keeping up with the times and using USB like just about every other device on the market. It's "funny" in that it's written as though THEY are the expert on what is considered industry standard. Maybe the question should have been "3. The programming unit doesn't support the most popular industry standard for peripherals, but instead uses an antiquated interface used typically for attaching old printers. What should I do?" The web site design is ala 1990's[1], so perhaps they haven't realized times have changed? Another red flag is an FAQ that includes Win95 and ME related questions. Keith [1] In case you think I was just exaggerating, please see the 1998 version of the site(13+ years ago), which is more or less exactly the same as today's. http://tinyurl.com/7evnot6 From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 30 10:01:31 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:01:31 -0400 Subject: new amiga book has been released In-Reply-To: References: , <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9EA94B.8040407@verizon.net> Hey, I thought some of you might like to know that an MIT Press book, ala "Racing the Beam", has been released on the Amiga. "The Future Was Here: The Commodore Amiga (Platform Studies)" Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/d3xnnfp Received my copy a couple days ago. Keith From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 10:53:00 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:53:00 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9EA6A3.9070600@verizon.net> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <4F9EA6A3.9070600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <536ABADE-E886-416A-AF19-BBC1A00EFD18@gmail.com> On Apr 30, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> It connects to the parallel port. > > It sure looks like they deliberately hide that fact. I spent quite some time on their website, and I was asking the same question. I *did* find an FAQ which was > > "3. I have a computer with no industry standard ports. How can I connect the programming unit?" > > The answer is to spend another $100(on top of the already $300) buying a PCMCIA card to add a parallel port. > > Of course, it's interesting to note that it's "our fault" for not having a parallel port. Not their fault for not keeping up with the times and using USB like just about every other device on the market. Oh, lord, here we go again. USB is great for what it's great at, but it does have a nasty habit of unnecessarily complicating simple things. They could probably do a relatively simple hack and put an FT245 (USB->parallel FIFO) chip on there that would work with some modifications, but then to make it work on Windows, you have to make it install a driver (regardless of whether you're using libusb or not). It really does a good job of mucking up the simple things when you can bang something together that "just works" on a parallel port, and it's aimed towards people who can justify hanging onto some legacy equipment if they want to burn some EPROMs. I like USB well enough, especially for the more complex things that it's good at (and the higher speed is certainly a plus), but I very much resent how much higher the barrier to entry is for a USB peripheral versus a simple serial/parallel port one. And yes, I've had to write the code on both ends (host and device) for both USB and "legacy" devices. > It's "funny" in that it's written as though THEY are the expert on what is considered industry standard. It was industry standard when they wrote it, as you mentioned below. I should point out that lots of PC motherboards still incorporate at least a single serial port not because they expect people to be using serially-attached modems, but because it's still the best way to debug Windows drivers (having done so in the past) because USB is one-way and 1394 is decidedly an outlier in the PC world. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 11:15:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:15:55 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <201204301321.q3UDLRmn030108@billy.ezwind.net> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com>, <096501cd26cb$07699930$163ccb90$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, <201204301321.q3UDLRmn030108@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4F9E584B.2811.CBDE6@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 8:18, John Foust wrote: > Has anyone made a device that provides a simple indication of the > power supplied by a USB port? Or is there a standard for indicating > how much a device needs to get from the port? This is obviously a > source of consumer frustration. I had one of those Chinese TOP USB programmers--it worked okay, but wouldn't do some legacy devices. I took a peek inside the unit and found that there were pads for a DC "barrel" receptacle on board, but unpopulated. Had I hung onto the programmer, I would have populated the pads and used the unit with an external power supply. For what it's worth, the power supply on the Xeltek supplies 9VDC at 2A, which is far more than a USB port can manage. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 30 11:46:30 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:46:30 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <536ABADE-E886-416A-AF19-BBC1A00EFD18@gmail.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <4F9EA6A3.9070600@verizon.net> <536ABADE-E886-416A-AF19-BBC1A00EFD18@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9EC1E6.4000208@verizon.net> On 4/30/2012 11:53 AM, David Riley wrote: > USB is great for what it's great at, but it does have a nasty habit > of unnecessarily complicating simple things. I don't disagree with you here. But this is what our computers/mobos ship with now. This is how we connect our keyboards, mice, printers, usb flash drives, scanners, external harddrives, logic analyzers, webcams, and so on. The ubiquity has staying power and momentum. All my (current computers including laptops) have and support USB, and I've got plenty of ports available. It's easy and convenient. > They could probably do > a relatively simple hack and put an FT245 (USB->parallel FIFO) chip > on there that would work with some modifications, but then to make it > work on Windows, you have to make it install a driver (regardless of > whether you're using libusb or not). True, but the FTDI drivers for windows are certified and work very well. I've used them (created software and hardware) with Windows 7. The documentation that ships with the Windows DLLs is pretty good --- and I successfully drove them through Java via JNI. > It really does a good job of > mucking up the simple things when you can bang something together > that "just works" on a parallel port, and it's aimed towards people > who can justify hanging onto some legacy equipment if they want to > burn some EPROMs. And while I like some of my legacy equipment (ala Amiga, namely) --- I would never buy a peripheral in 2012 that relies on me keeping an old-ish x86 PC around. I want a new product designed for new machines -- or at least one that is currently supported on new machines. > I like USB well enough, especially for the more complex things that > it's good at (and the higher speed is certainly a plus), but I very > much resent how much higher the barrier to entry is for a USB > peripheral versus a simple serial/parallel port one. As someone who likes to build some hobby devices, I too, don't like the barrier to entry to USB. And yes, serial and parallel are easy and straight-forward. BUT AS A CONSUMER, I want something that connects to my computer like all my other devices. Something that does not require anything special. A USB eeprom burner that I can use on any of my current desktop/laptop computers is what I want. Keith From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Apr 30 11:58:57 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:58:57 -0400 Subject: discrete transistor computer Message-ID: On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. In the late 60's and 70's, radio shack sold some little one-bit-flip-flop boards with lamps. Each flip flop was a little square of circuit board. There may have been other logic functions available one-to-a-board. I'm pretty sure they were discrete transistors for the most part (even the round package SSI Motorola RTL typically had two gates or flip flops per package.) You could buy multiples and configure them as a counter, and I'm pretty sure they could be wired as a shift register too. May have been "Archerkit" brand name. Or "Pbox" brand name although what I remember were not Pbox's but circuit boards. I tried using websearches to find pictures or docs, but the Googles, they do nothing! Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 30 12:14:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: References: , <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120430101035.G34331@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > which history? computing in general, or home computing?home computing > might be more ubiquitous with what the general public might consider. > So, could the "real history" start with the vic-20 very ARBITRARY and late. > or perhaps the pet computers quite arguable, alng with TRS80 and Apple][ > I think by the time the c64 came around we were well on our way, exactly > the IBM pc's were a bit late to the game absolutely. They were not a participant. AFTER personal computers were WELL extablished, they "decided" to take over that field. > commodore and atari were certainly household names, but let's not start > that war again. There is likely to be peace in the middle east before THAT war dies down. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 30 12:48:47 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:48:47 -0600 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <536ABADE-E886-416A-AF19-BBC1A00EFD18@gmail.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <4F9EA6A3.9070600@verizon.net> <536ABADE-E886-416A-AF19-BBC1A00EFD18@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <536ABADE-E886-416A-AF19-BBC1A00EFD18 at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > [...] because USB is > one-way Since when? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 12:54:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:54:00 -0700 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <20120430101035.G34331@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120430101035.G34331@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9E6F48.23979.668B28@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 10:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > There is likely to be peace in the middle east before THAT war dies > down. And largely is irrelevant. Personally, I think that the Viatron (1967) has the edge on being "the first" personal computer. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 30 13:03:28 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Apr 30, 12 11:48:47 am" Message-ID: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com> > > [...] because USB is > > one-way > > Since when? I think David is referring to its polled nature. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm joining my split ends individually." - From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 13:14:36 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:14:36 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com> References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> On Apr 30, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> [...] because USB is >>> one-way >> >> Since when? > > I think David is referring to its polled nature. Yes, I suppose "asymmetric" would have been a better term. It's not peer-to-peer like serial ports or 1394 are, which is what would make it nearly useless for kernel debug; that's before you get to issues of protocol stack, which 1394 gets away with by using DMA on the controller, which is questionable from a security standpoint but great for kernel debug. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 13:24:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:24:30 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9E766E.10971.827641@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 12:58, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > In the late 60's and 70's, radio shack sold some little > one-bit-flip-flop boards with lamps. Each flip flop was a little > square of circuit board. > > There may have been other logic functions available one-to-a-board. > I'm pretty sure they were discrete transistors for the most part (even > the round package SSI Motorola RTL typically had two gates or flip > flops per package.) I suspect that, at the time, (ca. 1968-69), discretes for simple logic functions had an edge in terms of cost over early integrated circuit RTL, particularly for an educational product. Perhaps for J- K flip-flops, the IC version may have had a slight edge. --Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Mon Apr 30 13:24:37 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:24:37 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer Message-ID: Tim wrote: > In the late 60's and 70's, radio shack sold some little one-bit-flip-flop boards > with lamps. Each flip flop was a little square of circuit board. > > There may have been other logic functions available one-to-a-board. I'm > pretty sure they were discrete transistors for the most part (even the round > package SSI Motorola RTL typically had two gates or flip flops per package.) > > You could buy multiples and configure them as a counter, and I'm pretty sure > they could be wired as a shift register too. > > May have been "Archerkit" brand name. Or "Pbox" brand name although > what I remember were not Pbox's but circuit boards. > > I tried using websearches to find pictures or docs, but the Googles, they do > nothing! > I built something like this when I was probably something like 12 or 13 years old. I was purchased at Radio Shack as a kit. It was a four bit binary counter, with incandescent lights as on the Q outputs, (though discrete transistor drivers), and a photoresistive cell or pushbutton switch as the trigger. With the photoresistor as the trigger, when you waved your hand in front of the photocell, it would increment the counter, which was pretty cool. I distinctly remember the RTL IC's made by Motorola in the black plastic "blob" packages. I have vague recollection of the project being a mother board that had four small circuit boards that had the flip flop chip, transistor driver, and lamp (perhaps these were the boards that Tim mentioned). The mother board had a photocell, a toggle switch, and a momentary action switch with de-bouncing circuitry. You could trigger the counter with the photocell, or the momentary action switch. I think the thing ran off a 9V battery if I remember correctly. The photocell didn't have very fast response time, but I do remember putting it in front of a fan in a dark room with a flashlight shining through the fan blades, and made the counter go pretty fast. I think that I eventually damaged the chips by trying to make the thing count BCD rather than binary by adding some gating. That was the end of it. It was fun building and tinkering with, and educational. It was my first exposure to integrated circuits. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Apr 30 13:32:21 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:32:21 +0000 Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D80EA73@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Murray McCullough Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 5:35 PM > Can one subscribe to the theory that vintage computers, such as the > Coleco ADAM, went extinct This of course raises the question of whether or not micros like the toy Adam are vintage computers. Old, yes, but vintage? :-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 13:33:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:33:08 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com>, <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 14:14, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 30, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>> [...] because USB is > >>> one-way > >> > >> Since when? > > > > I think David is referring to its polled nature. > > Yes, I suppose "asymmetric" would have been a better term. It's > not peer-to-peer like serial ports or 1394 are, which is what would > make it nearly useless for kernel debug; that's before you get to > issues of protocol stack, which 1394 gets away with by using DMA on > the controller, which is questionable from a security standpoint but > great for kernel debug. Or perhaps "half-duplex", although USB 3.0 claims full-duplex capability. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 13:46:07 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:46:07 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com> <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:14 AM, David Riley wrote: > > Yes, I suppose "asymmetric" would have been a better term. ?It's > not peer-to-peer like serial ports or 1394 are, which is what would > make it nearly useless for kernel debug If you have a USB 2.0 host controller which supports the USB debug interface (all Intel USB 2.0 host controllers do), and the USB 2.0 debug port is externally connectable on the debug target system, and you have the USB 2.0 debug connection device to connect between the debug host and the debug target, then you can kernel debug a Windows system over a USB 2.0 connection. It can be a pain to setup, but is useful when none of the other options (serial, 1394, Ethernet) are available on the debug target. -Glen From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Apr 30 13:46:34 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:46:34 +0000 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4F97268E.7020806@att.net> from "steve shumaker" at Apr 24, 12 03:17:50 pm Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> So, is this auction for a potentially viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a good buy? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 1:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: another HP2100 on govliquidation > I don't know about the "A" model - this one was an "S"and yes, it is > still export restricted - that's the definition of a Demil Q class item Well, _this_ one has export restrictions from what you are saying, I doubt all 2100S's do. IIRC the techncial manuals and probably schematics for the machine are availalbe on th web with no restrictions (and with the blessign of HP). If there was really somethign secret about the machine itslef, the manuals would be a much quicker way to discover it. My guess is that, as others ahve said, it's a typicla government regulation... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 13:46:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:46:49 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9E7BA9.328.96E574@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 11:24, Rick Bensene wrote: > I built something like this when I was probably something like 12 or > 13 years old. I was purchased at Radio Shack as a kit. It was a four > bit binary counter, with incandescent lights as on the Q outputs, > (though discrete transistor drivers), and a photoresistive cell or > pushbutton switch as the trigger. With the photoresistor as the > trigger, when you waved your hand in front of the photocell, it would > increment the counter, which was pretty cool. Motorola also offered a bubble-pack of assorted milliwatt RTL TO-100 devices as part of their experimenter's kit line. (Fat chance of that ever happening again!). The little booklet that came with it was interesting in that perhaps as many linear applications were described as digital ones. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 13:49:21 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:49:21 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> On 30/04/2012 13:16, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: >> I know others have defended the Willem units, and I'll add my note as a >> satisfied customer. > I'll add another. > >> Be aware most Willems will require a parallel port. Most newer units >> will also sport a USB port, but it's for power only. > If you decide to use the "USB power" be sure whatever USB port on your > computer can handle it. I had mine plugged into one of the "back" > ports on my computer and it worked fine. Later, I put the same > motherboard in a different case that allowed me to hook up some "front" > USB port connectors to the pin headers on the motherboard. Apparently, > these ports did not supply enough current and the Willem behaved badly. > I was just considering pitching it when it occurred to me to plug it > into the back port as before. Sure enough, that fixed it. > >> Either way, buy a unit with a socket for an external power supply. The >> on board charge pump can't do enough with USB supplied power to handle >> all of the EPROM programming variants. > Yes, after the above experience, I went ahead and rigged up a "wall > wart" supply. > > Bill S. > I have some "TMS2532" chips. Any suggestions on how to program them (I have a project in mind that will need these or a similar device) From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Apr 30 14:03:49 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:03:49 -0400 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <4F9E6F48.23979.668B28@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , , , <20120430101035.G34331@shell.lmi.net>, <4F9E6F48.23979.668B28@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ah but the original poster wasn't talking about the first personal computer,it was talking about when the REAL history started. and for that, I think we need to stick to when something became a household name,or enough that most people knew what it was. even then, we're going to have the divide of the pacific/oceans. for this, I think we need to look at the TRS-80, the apple or the early atari computers. TRS-80 nov/77 let's say 1978Apple II apr/77atari 400 - 1979 - loses the racecommodore pet - 1977 - announced in jan shipped in oct so the pet and the apple II ran head to head, though I don't recall it this way. commodore ended up winning the home pc war, still outselling any computer to present day. Dan. > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:54:00 -0700 > Subject: RE: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct > > On 30 Apr 2012 at 10:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > There is likely to be peace in the middle east before THAT war dies > > down. > > And largely is irrelevant. Personally, I think that the Viatron > (1967) has the edge on being "the first" personal computer. > > --Chuck > From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 14:10:35 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:10:35 -0400 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <4F97268E.7020806@att.net> from "steve shumaker" at Apr 24, 12 03:17:50 pm <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2012, at 2:46 PM, Bob Brown wrote: > So, is this auction for a potentially viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a good buy? Should be good to run, assuming you are a US citizen. Looks like it's basically NOS, but has probably been sitting in its box since its initial checkout, so there may be some "bit rot" or cap degradation, etc. - Dave From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 30 14:17:42 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <1335813462.14310.YahooMailClassic@web184508.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Bob Brown wrote: > From: Bob Brown > Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:46 AM > So, is this auction for a potentially > viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a > good buy? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu > ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of > Operations > Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by > grace > The thing I noticed is the power cord is stored in the unit. Must be taking up quite a bit of space as it's a think, long cable. I'd be worried that some boards are missing, or if your lucky, it just has no I/O cards. Worst case, the cord is stored where the core memory was. Bob From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Apr 30 14:34:38 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:34:38 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <09de01cd2708$48828f70$d987ae50$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave Wade wrote: > I have some "TMS2532" chips. Any suggestions on how to program them (I > have a project in mind that will need these or a similar device) Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. I would start there. My Willem, when powered correctly and strapped for 2732 seems to do a 21 volt VPP. The TMS2532 data sheet says it wants 25. I don't know if you can get away with that or not. You may want to spring for some 27c32 chips. They have a 12.5 volt VPP and I've done lots of them on my Willem. Bill S. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 30 14:57:59 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:57:59 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <09de01cd2708$48828f70$d987ae50$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <09de01cd2708$48828f70$d987ae50$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F9EEEC7.4020909@brouhaha.com> Dave Wade wrote: > I have some "TMS2532" chips. Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. No, the TMS2532 doesn't make any such claim. It claims that it is "pin compatible with existing ROMs and EPROMs (8K, 16K, 32K and 64K), but that does not include the 2732, and their reference to 32K and 64K was only in regard to ROMs. The TMS2532 is most definitely *not* pin compatible with 2732, and attempting to program a 2532 as a 2732 will likely damage it. They aren't read-compatible either, but damage is far less likely to occur when attempting to read a 2532 as a 2732 (or vice versa). pin TMS2532 2732 --- ------- -------- 18 A11 CE* 20 PD/PGM* OE*/Vpp 21 Vpp A11 As with the earlier TMS2716, which was not compatible with the Intel 2716 or anyone else's, TI tried to second-guess what the standard pinout for the 2732 would be, and failed. At least they anticipated this possibility and referred to their part as the 2532; if it had matched, they could later have dual-marked it 2532 and 2732. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 30 15:06:27 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:06:27 -0600 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com>, <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 30 Apr 2012 at 14:14, David Riley wrote: > > > On Apr 30, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > >>> [...] because USB is > > >>> one-way > > >> > > >> Since when? > > > > > > I think David is referring to its polled nature. > > > > Yes, I suppose "asymmetric" would have been a better term. It's > > not peer-to-peer like serial ports or 1394 are, which is what would > > make it nearly useless for kernel debug; that's before you get to > > issues of protocol stack, which 1394 gets away with by using DMA on > > the controller, which is questionable from a security standpoint but > > great for kernel debug. > > Or perhaps "half-duplex", although USB 3.0 claims full-duplex > capability. None of this is making sense to me. Please clarify what you mean by these terms in this context: "polled nature" "asymmetric" "half-duplex" ...and it would help that instead of just rephrasing in another euphamism, you would say exactly what it is about USB that matters here. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Apr 30 15:18:24 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:18:24 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9EEEC7.4020909@brouhaha.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <09de01cd2708$48828f70$d987ae50$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4F9EEEC7.4020909@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <09ee01cd270e$65c3d250$314b76f0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. > > No, the TMS2532 doesn't make any such claim. Interesting. Thanks for the correction. > It claims that it is "pin compatible with existing ROMs and > EPROMs (8K, 16K, 32K and 64K)", but that does not include the > 2732, and their reference to 32K and 64K was only in regard to > ROMs. So, the 2532 predates the 2732? Interesting that they revised the data sheet until 1982 without clearing that up. > The TMS2532 is most definitely *not* pin compatible with 2732 I see that now. I must remember that data sheets are at least partially products of the marketing departments. Sigh... Bill S. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 30 15:18:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:18:45 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com>, <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9EF3A5.5080104@neurotica.com> On 04/30/2012 04:06 PM, Richard wrote: >>>>>> [...] because USB is >>>>>> one-way >>>>> >>>>> Since when? >>>> >>>> I think David is referring to its polled nature. >>> >>> Yes, I suppose "asymmetric" would have been a better term. It's >>> not peer-to-peer like serial ports or 1394 are, which is what would >>> make it nearly useless for kernel debug; that's before you get to >>> issues of protocol stack, which 1394 gets away with by using DMA on >>> the controller, which is questionable from a security standpoint but >>> great for kernel debug. >> >> Or perhaps "half-duplex", although USB 3.0 claims full-duplex >> capability. > > None of this is making sense to me. > > Please clarify what you mean by these terms in this context: > > "polled nature" > "asymmetric" > "half-duplex" > > ...and it would help that instead of just rephrasing in another > euphamism, you would say exactly what it is about USB that matters > here. Richard picks a fight, once again. He was, I'm pretty certain, referring to the fact that USB is a fairly complex (at least in comparison to RS232) master/slave network interface. You cannot (usually) plug a USB peripheral into a PeeCee and have the PeeCee become a slave peripheral. Dave's original assertion was poorly worded, but it was absolutely correct. If you really want to nitpick the wording, rather than the (friggin' OBVIOUS!) intended meaning, well...you've got more free time than I do. Or my cats, for that matter. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 30 15:18:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <20120430101035.G34331@shell.lmi.net>, <4F9E6F48.23979.668B28@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120430124748.R57897@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > ah but the original poster wasn't talking about the first personal > computer,it was talking about when the REAL history started. _I_ was the one who put "REAL history" in the subject line. That was NOT to make the differentiation that you are making, of "first" V "popular". (not that THAT isn't important) It was to differentiate REALITY V thinking that some obscure esoteric LATER machine that never caught (Adam) on, was the mainstream of history. > that, I think we need to stick to when something became a household > name,or enough that most people knew what it was. even then, we're going > to have the divide of the pacific/oceans. for this, I think we need to > look at the TRS-80, the apple or the early atari computers. TRS-80 > nov/77 let's say 1978Apple II apr/77atari 400 - 1979 - loses the > racecommodore pet - 1977 - announced in jan shipped in oct so the pet > and the apple II ran head to head, though I don't recall it this way. > commodore ended up winning the home pc war, still outselling any > computer to present day. Dan. As to "first", many things need to be defined. Do prototypes count? Shown at CES? V available for retail sale? Sold V delivered? Why was the term "vaporware" created? By analogy, Toyota has been announcing (AND ADVERTISING as if available) their new models several months before they actually exist, much less are available - when they deliver a dozen PHEVs to fleet customers (really a BETA test), does THAT count as available? I went into the dealer with money in hand to buy a Prius V (the station Wagon) after it was already being advertised as available; it was a month before I could SEE one, and another month before I got mine. Which date counts? Can anybody who hasn't actually walked into the showroom state accurately whether the PHEV or Prius C (smaller like a Yaris) actually exist yet? We accept the official date of August 12?, 1981 for the IBM PC (5150). BUT, except for those with inside connections (many of whom had pre-release machines for development), could ANYBODY actually carry one home before October or November? And yet we are often ready to argue "first"s based on months! IF we accept the premise that low volume machines that failed to fully penetrate the general public's sphere of interest don't count, . . . (and marginalize dozens of S100, and other, machines) The various arguable numbers (shown? available? etc.) overlap significantly between TRS80, PET, and Apple][. AND, there were regional variations. Enough so, that I would call those three a tie. Actually, I think that Apple was the third of those three, (because _I_ could buy a TRS80 OR PET a few months before _I_ could buy an Apple) but it was close enough to still call it a tie. (Yes, we could argue fine detail of chronology, but that seems pointless when we haven't even defined what we mean by available) Atari 400, TI99, etc. came SOON after the "first" three. The IBM PC (5150) can't even realistically be called an "early" machine. > > And largely is irrelevant. Personally, I think that the Viatron > > (1967) has the edge on being "the first" personal computer. Antikythera! 5100! Bally Library! (beat THAT for obscure mass-marketed early machines!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 15:19:40 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:19:40 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4f9eea2c.6ad1320a.6878.ffffe4aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <4f9eea2c.6ad1320a.6878.ffffe4aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4F9EF3DC.60407@gmail.com> On 30/04/2012 20:34, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Dave Wade wrote: >> I have some "TMS2532" chips. Any suggestions on how to program them (I >> have a project in mind that will need these or a similar device) > Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. I would start there. > > My Willem, when powered correctly and strapped for 2732 seems to do > a 21 volt VPP. The TMS2532 data sheet says it wants 25. I don't know > if you can get away with that or not. You may want to spring for some > 27c32 chips. They have a 12.5 volt VPP and I've done lots of them on > my Willem. > > Bill S. > Thanks Bill, The clone Willem's look cheap enough to buy one to experiment with, even in the UK. I think I might just order one and give these a whirl. Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 15:22:49 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:22:49 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4f9eea2c.6ad1320a.6878.ffffe4aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <4f9eea2c.6ad1320a.6878.ffffe4aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Dave Wade wrote: >> I have some "TMS2532" chips. Any suggestions on how to program them (I >> have a project in mind that will need these or a similar device) > > Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. I would start there. Er. Electrically compatible, *maybe*, but the pinout is different enough that they're definitely not interchangeable. Defender uses a bunch of 2532s, which is unfortunate because they're a lot harder to find than 2732s. If you're looking to get rid of 'em, I'll gladly take them off your hands for a reasonable price. For new projects, find some 2732s; they're a lot easier to find (and thus cheaper) and enjoy wider programmer support. - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 30 15:24:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:24:31 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <09ee01cd270e$65c3d250$314b76f0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <09de01cd2708$48828f70$d987ae50$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4F9EEEC7.4020909@brouhaha.com> <09ee01cd270e$65c3d250$314b76f0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F9EF4FF.20902@brouhaha.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > So, the 2532 predates the 2732? I have no idea whether the TMS2532 was announced before or after the Intel 2732, but it's obvious that TI was far along the development path before Intel announced the 2732. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 15:33:28 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:33:28 -0500 Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <20120429114325.C91323@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120429114325.C91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9EF718.8060300@gmail.com> On 04/29/2012 01:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > While hard drives were certainly a welcome advance, I feel strongly that > neither they, NOR CERTAINLY "16 bit"!, were critical thresholds for the > inevitable advance of personal computers. The uses, both office > (word-processing and spreadhseets) and home (games), worked quite > adequately with floppies. If the discussion is focused on home computers, then I wonder if the typical* use for "productivity" software wasn't along the lines of: "turn the machine on, do some stuff, save, forget" - i.e. the sequential nature of tape storage wasn't a big issue, because needing to search for something that had been previously stored (certainly at somewhere other than BOT) wasn't really _that_ common. * not that there weren't people doing bigger and better things, obviously, but I think they were probably in the minority, with the majority playing games, typing a few short documents, doing home accounts etc. I remember that tapes were cheap and plentiful enough that I rarely stored more than one file on each. Wasteful, yes, but I knew that my file was at the start of the tape and I didn't have to spend time searching for it. My modern home PC boots up, loads a wordprocessor and lets me start typing a document about as fast as my Spectrum with cassette-based storage in 1982 did; the modern system will do so much more, but quite often I find that it's so much more that I don't really need. In the office it was doubtless a different story, and floppies (or hard disks) were accepted - and were useful - much sooner, but I'm not sure that the retention of tape really had much of an impact on the home market until floppy drives became *really* cheap. cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 15:31:40 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:31:40 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com>, <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <402349B0-DD67-44D6-AC08-BE9386A54225@gmail.com> On Apr 30, 2012, at 4:06 PM, Richard wrote: > None of this is making sense to me. > > Please clarify what you mean by these terms in this context: > > "polled nature" > "asymmetric" > "half-duplex" > > ...and it would help that instead of just rephrasing in another > euphamism, you would say exactly what it is about USB that matters > here. Sure. To be clear, what I meant initially by "one way" is that USB transfers occur when the host requests them (i.e. a device cannot say "Here, host, have some data!", but rather the host has to poll the particular device looking for data). That's what I meant by "asymmetric" (it's not a bus where all devices have equal standing as targets or initiators, like SCSI or PCI or Ethernet or 1394), and what someone else (Cameron?) meant by its "polled nature". Half-duplex is generally true of USB, but it's not what I was talking about. There's only one (differential) data line in the USB bus, so communication is necessarily half-duplex, but that's not really material to the problem I was getting at. USB 3.0 may have extra lines in its socket (I haven't really looked) to enable full-duplex communication, but I don't know what that entails since I've never looked into USB 3.0. There are "host to host" USB cables available (probably the same devices that Glen Slick was talking about), but they require an active device in the middle to store and forward the data from both hosts as if they were devices on the other end. They were used for file transfer a long time ago when the serial port was going away and people were bemoaning the loss of the null-modem cable transfer; I recall someone made a homebrew PlayStation2 app which could use that to load homebrew code over USB instead of burning lots of discs (this was before the Ethernet attachment for the PS2 was popular; the "slim" ones have it built in, so now Ethernet is the medium of choice). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 15:32:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:32:31 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com>, <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 14:06, Richard wrote: > "polled nature" > "asymmetric" > "half-duplex" Okay (although this could have been resolved with a simple lookup on USB protocol). The third term should be obvious. Data can flow in only one direction at any given time over the interface. USB 3.0 uses a pair of connectors to get around this, but I'm not aware of any USB 3.0 full-duplex EPROM programmers. "Asymmetric" refers to adherence to a master-slave topology; a member on the bus is either a controller or a slave. What ties this with "polled nature" is that there is no way for a slave to initiate a transfer--all conversations are initiated by the controller. In other words, conversation between slave and controller is "speak only when spoken to". Thus, to determine the status of an operation, the host must periodically poll the slave asking "Is it soup yet?". I hope this clears things up. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 15:34:17 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:34:17 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com> <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2012 1:09 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > None of this is making sense to me. > > Please clarify what you mean by these terms in this context: > > "polled nature" > "asymmetric" > "half-duplex" The data transfer schedule is completely controlled by the host. A device can transfer data at a lower rate than given opportunities to do so by NAKing transactions in the bus, but a device cannot transfer data faster than given opportunities to do so by the host, or force the host to initiate a data transfer. In USB 1.0 and 2.0 there is a single D+/D- pair between host and device so it is half-duplex in the sense that data can only be transferred either IN or OUT at any given time. It is asymmetric in that you can only connect a host to a device. You can't connect two hosts together without a device in the middle, nor can you connect two devices together. For most common host and device usage scenarios these aren't real restrictions. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 30 15:38:11 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:38:11 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <000f01cd2711$2a5bf7d0$7f13e770$@ntlworld.com> > Be aware most Willems will require a parallel port. Most newer units will > also sport a USB port, but it's for power only. > Some of the newer units will indeed work with USB. > Either way, buy a unit with a socket for an external power supply. The on > board charge pump can't do enough with USB supplied power to handle all > of the EPROM programming variants. > It seems that there are USB to DB25 devices available so you can plug the Willem into a USB port on a modern PC that does not have a parallel port. Has anyone tried this? Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 15:42:37 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:42:37 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4f9ef45f.02d1320a.74ab.ffffeb10SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <4F9EEEC7.4020909@brouhaha.com> <4f9ef45f.02d1320a.74ab.ffffeb10SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: > Eric Smith wrote: >> ? ?Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> > Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. >>> >> It claims that it is "pin compatible with existing ROMs and >> EPROMs (8K, 16K, 32K and 64K)", but that does not include the >> 2732, and their reference to 32K and 64K was only in regard to >> ROMs. > >> The TMS2532 is most definitely *not* pin compatible with 2732 http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue11/69_1_ROM_EXPANSION_FOR_THE_COMMODORE_PET.php The 2532 _is_ pin-compatible for reading in a PET socket that's expecting a 2332 masked-programmed ROM. I've had several 2532s in my PET 2001N-32 (US version of the 3032) since the late 1970s, no adapter. These days, it's easier to build an adapter than find real 2532s. -ethan From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 15:54:00 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:54:00 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <4f9eea2c.6ad1320a.6878.ffffe4aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4F9EFBE8.5060608@gmail.com> On 30/04/2012 21:22, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 30, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> Dave Wade wrote: >>> I have some "TMS2532" chips. Any suggestions on how to program them (I >>> have a project in mind that will need these or a similar device) >> Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. I would start there. > Er. Electrically compatible, *maybe*, but the pinout is different > enough that they're definitely not interchangeable. Defender uses a > bunch of 2532s, which is unfortunate because they're a lot harder to > find than 2732s. If you're looking to get rid of 'em, I'll gladly > take them off your hands for a reasonable price. > > For new projects, find some 2732s; they're a lot easier to find (and > thus cheaper) and enjoy wider programmer support. > > > - Dave > Glad to let you have them if you need them Where are you... .. note I am in the UK but hope to be coming to West Pondia in the Autumn. One of my sons is starting work at the University Of Utah , VISA permitting... Dave From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Apr 30 15:56:35 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:56:35 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9EF3DC.60407@gmail.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <4f9eea2c.6ad1320a.6878.ffffe4aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EF3DC.60407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <09f801cd2713$bb80ba50$32822ef0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave Wade wrote: > The clone Willem's look cheap enough to buy one to experiment with, > even in the UK. I think I might just order one and give these a whirl. I'll repeat what Eric Smith wrote, just in case you miss it. I skimmed the TMS2532 data sheet too quickly and did not give the pinout a good look. The TMS2532 is NOT pin compatible with the 2732. The pin changes are minor, and a converter could easily be made from a couple of 24 pin sockets but don't try to program it as a 2732 without a converter or a programmer that explicitly says it will do the 2532. Bill S. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 13:48:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:48:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <90408073-39AC-42A9-9B12-222D667C4981@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Apr 29, 12 05:04:30 pm Message-ID: > That may be true for UK mains plugs; Alexandre is from Brazil, and > I don't know about their plugs, but I know US plugs are worth next That depends o nthe US plug... I have rebuilt damaged Hubble ones (made a good one from 2 broaken ones), but that's mainly because such things are very hard to get over here ,and when you do find them they are very expensive -- about \pounds 25.00 for _one_ plug. My DEC power controlelrs have the 15V 230V socekts on them, so the 110V plugs don;t fit. Those you can get over here, but the 230V ones are linke gold dust. Hence it's well worth me saving all I can. > to nothing for parts. We don't even have fuses in them, I guess > because we really like house fires (exception: a lot of Christmas > tree lights had tiny fuses in the plug, but I don't even know if > that's true with the LED ones now). Over here, wall-wart PSUs tend not to be fused. The transformer is supposed to burn out safely in the event of a serious overlaod, but often doesn't. I am not at all happy protecting soemthing like that with the 32A breaker in the consumer unit... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 13:50:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:50:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4F9DBA5A.90801@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Apr 29, 12 03:02:02 pm Message-ID: > > With all SMT, he packs the boards very closely, performance > > is of course not so great with discrete junction transistors running > > in saturation. > > > > Jon > > > > Hmm, you know he could compact the transistors even more if he used TTL > logic - that would be a great space saver (ducking). I reckon he could comapct it even more if he used MOS logic in FPGAs (ducks even more...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 13:57:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:57:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1c4101cd2655$4bedbe40$6600a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 29, 12 07:12:10 pm Message-ID: > It isn't odd, but of course the level you takes the repairability of > your devices is something beyond common. I know (a bit of) the britsh plug Err, yes... As somedy siad a few days ago, for a lot of people, the whole conmputer is the FRU. They don;t bother to even swap out a defective hard drive. Then there are people who do repalce what the manufacturers class as FRUs -- the drives, PSU, motherboard, etc. And then there are peole who would repair those -- replace capacitors, individual ICs, etc. And then there are people (well, at least one personm...) who wil leven have a go at repairign some components -- rewinding transformers and motors, replacing indivdiauly contacts in connectors, etc. I don;t repair ICs though... > and it is very sturdy, I believe it is repairabile and it is nice to have > some parts around. As I said, I'm just curious of how much old things you > have stored in your house :) A lot. I've got sall soets of obscure spares, NOS and ex-equipment. Probably goign back to the 1920s (I vertainly have some wonderful brass tuning capacitors, low-loss B4 valveholders, etc). More on-topic, I've got several boxes of DEC spares that were given to me -- RK05 heads, motors, contacctors, PCBs, conenctor blocks, etc. And a lot of other odd bits. And of coruse new components (R's and C's. transitors, ICs, connectors, etc) for construcitonal projects and repairs. > > I'm myself into this situation. Tons of things and I know no place to > store, my house is still full. I need to take a pkzip session into it :o) Now that;s an idea. At least it's a lossless compression... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 14:05:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:05:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201204292223.SAA09278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 29, 12 06:23:18 pm Message-ID: > > > Cookers, water heaters, shwoer heaters, etc normally have their own > > dedicated circuits fused at 30A, 32A, 45A or even 60A. It is rare > > for these devices ot be plugged in, it is possible [...] > > In my - admittedly rather limited - experience, water heaters tend to > be wired in, with no explicit connector, whereas stoves[%] tend to be What hewaters are nearly always hardwired over here too > plugged in with a rather heavy and distinctive four-conductor plug. > (Two mains phases, neutral, and ground.) Clothes dryers - which you Sotves (what we call cookers) are normally hardwired. Obviously you can't conenct one with a 13A plug. But AFAIK there is no reason why you can't use a higher current connector if you want to. > didn't mention unless UK English is even stranger to my eyes than I CLothes driers are what we call 'Tumble driers' They just plug in on a normal 13A plug. Typvically the heater elemets is rated a little under 3kW, allowing enough current to also run the drum motor and control unit. > thought - are like stoves in this regard. I'm not sure what a "shower > heater" is; if it's for warming up the room before/during showering, > I'd expect that to be wired in unless it's a portable room heater which > just happens to get used for that room. Now, a shower heater is an instantaneous water heater used to heat the water for a shower bath. They would almost always be hard wired, the regualtions prohibit any socket outlets in a 'room containing a fixed bath or shower'. > > Of course, not all stoves, nor clothes dryers nor water heaters, are > electric. I'm talking about just the electric ones here, the ones > where the principal energy source is electric mains. Oer here, gas tuimble driers are _very_ uncommon. > > [%] Are these "cooker"s? I'm talking about the thing that produces > heat for preparing food in a kitchen. Often bundled into the same > appliance as an oven; indeed, without an oven there's a tendency to > call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that > comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. Over here a 'cooker' tends to mean a device with an oven and some hotplates (often 4). You can also get seprate ovens and hotplate units (often called 'hobs' [1]). In general the separate units are designed to be fixed into kitchen furniture ,the complte 'cookers' are free-standing appliances. All are normally hardwired to the mains, but IMHO don't have to be. [1] A term which has a rather different menaing to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 14:09:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:09:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9DC26B.8090707@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at Apr 29, 12 11:36:27 pm Message-ID: > > [%] Are these "cooker"s? I'm talking about the thing that produces > > heat for preparing food in a kitchen. Often bundled into the same > > appliance as an oven; indeed, without an oven there's a tendency to > > call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that > > comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. > http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/r/cookers/0_0_0/ > > assuming it will show you out side English speaking East Pondia... > > must be hard wired... I disagree (as did sevearl electricans and electrical engineners I checked with). While you obviously can't connect a cooker needing perhaps 30A or more to a normal 13A socket, there is no reason you cna't plug one into a 32A (or 53A) BS4343 (or whateer the CEN number is) cosket, assuming it's protected by a suitable circuit breaker. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 13:43:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:43:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120429133902.Y91323@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 29, 12 01:40:52 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] Residual Current Device. I am not sure if that trem crosses the Pond, > > it's a device that detects an imbalance of current in the live and > > neutral wires, indicating a leak to earth somewhere, agd turns off the > > supply if that imbalance is greater than a certain (small, perahps 30mA) > > value. > > Called a GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) here. > Now often GCFI or GFCI ("circuit" needed to be mentioned) > Yes, now you mention it, I haev heard that term, and it is the same thing. We used to call them 'ELCB's (Earth Leakaga Circuit Breaker), I have no idea why the name was changed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 16:01:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:01:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120430133255.2da5b037.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Apr 30, 12 01:32:55 pm Message-ID: > > No, those don;'t turn it into a PDP8. > Yes. And you have been trolled. Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-) Oh come now... Do you honestly think I'd not considered emulators when I made my initial (joking) request? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 15:42:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:42:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Apr 29, 12 09:58:34 pm Message-ID: > audiophiles), but I find that the thermostat control on an electric > oven is more exact. I couldn't tell you why. Cheap models of all > kinds are atrocious in any case. Tell me about it. I once ahd to recalibrate an oven thermostat after repariign it (it was a few days before Newtonsday, we needed the oven to cook the turkey, and the correct repalcement was totally unobtainable so I had to repair the old thermostat). I found that the on/off points were not even approximately repaatable.... I think I got it somehwat near and said 'try that'. Well, the food was edible... To make this margianlly on-topic, the thermometer I used was an HP3421 data acquistion unit, a type K thermocouple and an HP71B as the controller. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 30 15:46:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:46:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <4F9E02A0.7020300@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 29, 12 11:10:24 pm Message-ID: > I agree 100%. There was an amazing degree of creativity involved when > CPU, memory, and storage resources were so limited. Thirty years ago I > wrote real code on machines that had less system memory than a single > communications buffer that I typically allocate these days. The change > in mindset is amazing! Perhaps you now udnerstnad how I feel when I compare the 'modern' solution of 'throw a microcontroller at the problem' wtih the solutions I grew up with using, perhaps half a dozen simple ICs (or even a dozen discrete transsitors) which were much more creative. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 16:46:00 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:46:00 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <000f01cd2711$2a5bf7d0$7f13e770$@ntlworld.com> References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <000f01cd2711$2a5bf7d0$7f13e770$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <75DE7757-FB75-4709-BC29-133E5497A248@gmail.com> On Apr 30, 2012, at 4:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Be aware most Willems will require a parallel port. Most newer units will >> also sport a USB port, but it's for power only. >> Some of the newer units will indeed work with USB. >> Either way, buy a unit with a socket for an external power supply. The on >> board charge pump can't do enough with USB supplied power to handle all >> of the EPROM programming variants. >> > > > It seems that there are USB to DB25 devices available so you can plug the > Willem into a USB port on a modern PC that does not have a parallel port. > Has anyone tried this? This affects the Xeltek software for their parallel port burners, but it may also affect other devices/manufacturers: most cheaply-developed EPROM burner software dates back to DOS and may have a GUI tacked on. The Xeltek software expects a parallel port at 0x378 (or alternately, at 0x278) that it can talk to directly. If you have something else (say, a PCI parallel port like I do, or certainly a USB one), you're not likely to have the parallel port there, and the Xeltek software bugs out. Newer software may behave better and use modern driver interfaces for talking to the parallel port, in which case any USB, PCI, PCMCIA, etc. device ought to work if the driver isn't totally broken. I do recall some USB parallel adaptors that only really worked with printers, mostly because of deficiencies in either the chipset or the driver. Most of those terminated with a Centronics plug instead of a DB-25. I solved my problem by making a VMWare image and telling VMWare that the PCI parallel port (which it could access just fine, thank you) should be located at the standard 0x378 in the guest machine. That works fine, though it's a little annoying to have to fire up a VM when I really just want to burn an EPROM. Still marginally better than having a dedicated machine for my legacy interfaces, which is something I still ponder from time to time. - Dave From technobug at comcast.net Mon Apr 30 17:00:30 2012 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:00:30 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:18:24 -0400, "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > > Eric Smith wrote: >> Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. >> >> No, the TMS2532 doesn't make any such claim. > > Interesting. Thanks for the correction. > >> It claims that it is "pin compatible with existing ROMs and >> EPROMs (8K, 16K, 32K and 64K)", but that does not include the >> 2732, and their reference to 32K and 64K was only in regard to >> ROMs. > > So, the 2532 predates the 2732? Interesting that they revised > the data sheet until 1982 without clearing that up. > >> The TMS2532 is most definitely *not* pin compatible with 2732 > > I see that now. I must remember that data sheets are at least > partially products of the marketing departments. Sigh... > > Bill S. To totally confuse the situation, the TMS2716 in not compatible with the Intel 2716 whereas the TMS2516 is, The TMS2732 is industry standard whereas the TMS2532 is not. This goes back to the time when the industry was sorting out what was going to be standard - one should be extremely careful when choosing, changing, or programming PROMs of this vintage. I just went through a learning process with a piece of failed HP test gear where a PROM failed. The unit had 2716 equivalents. I borrowed a friend's unit and attempted to read his PROMs and failed. An individual on the HP equipment list attempted to do the same and also failed until he looked at the schematics for his unit and found yet another pin out for what appeared to be a 2716 equivalent. The PROMs in question are NEC2316 about which information is unobtainium. -> CRC From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 17:06:09 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:06:09 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <4F9EEEC7.4020909@brouhaha.com> <4f9ef45f.02d1320a.74ab.ffffeb10SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4F9F0CD1.2020907@gmail.com> On 30/04/2012 21:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Eric Smith wrote: >>> Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>>> Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. >>>> >>> It claims that it is "pin compatible with existing ROMs and >>> EPROMs (8K, 16K, 32K and 64K)", but that does not include the >>> 2732, and their reference to 32K and 64K was only in regard to >>> ROMs. >>> The TMS2532 is most definitely *not* pin compatible with 2732 > http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue11/69_1_ROM_EXPANSION_FOR_THE_COMMODORE_PET.php > > The 2532 _is_ pin-compatible for reading in a PET socket that's > expecting a 2332 masked-programmed ROM. I've had several 2532s in my > PET 2001N-32 (US version of the 3032) since the late 1970s, no > adapter. > > These days, it's easier to build an adapter than find real 2532s. > > -ethan > I am collecting bits to build a 6809 machine and I wanted some EPROMS for the monitor. I found I found 4 x NECD2716Ds which I am sure these will do fine for that. I and also I think they can be programmed in a Willem. So that means the TMS2532JL-45 to quote the full number are available if any one needs those specifically, for the cost of postage and a small charge to cover my costs. I bought them in a pile of ICs for around $7.00 so the costs are small. Note I am in the UK so it might be cheaper to buy on US Ebay. There seem to be a few available. Dave G4UGM From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 30 17:10:07 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 10:10:07 +1200 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <006c01cd261f$b999d2c0$2ccd7840$@ntlworld.com> <2B51BD9C-AEDA-488B-B7BE-2A85F1D5EFC9@gmail.com> <4F9E13B0.70905@jbrain.com> <4f9e8382.a495320a.1f23.ffffb37cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4F9EDEB1.2080301@gmail.com> <4f9eea2c.6ad1320a.6878.ffffe4aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Just out of interest, I used my Willem to program 2532s for my PET by using an adaptor. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-07-04-pet-rom-upgrades.htm I'm assuming you could also use a 2732 in place of a 2532 in the machine in question if you have an adaptor socket which re-wired the appropriate pins. Terry (Tez) On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 8:22 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 30, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Dave Wade wrote: > >> I have some "TMS2532" chips. Any suggestions on how to program them (I > >> have a project in mind that will need these or a similar device) > > > > Data sheet claims pin compatibility with 2732. I would start there. > > Er. Electrically compatible, *maybe*, but the pinout is different > enough that they're definitely not interchangeable. Defender uses a > bunch of 2532s, which is unfortunate because they're a lot harder to > find than 2732s. If you're looking to get rid of 'em, I'll gladly > take them off your hands for a reasonable price. > > For new projects, find some 2732s; they're a lot easier to find (and > thus cheaper) and enjoy wider programmer support. > > > - Dave > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 30 17:17:09 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:17:09 -0400 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: , <4F9D79CB.3090104@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4F9DC374.25972.2ED110C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9F0F65.9040809@verizon.net> On 04/30/2012 05:35 AM, Dave Rowland wrote: > Chuck > > I built one that sounds very similar. It was started by another student and i then added mult and div. Dont know if the initial build was from a design doc. I had the whole thing drawn out on large paper sheet but alas long gone xx > -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > Chuck Guzis wrote: On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard > Smith wrote: >> > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete >> > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on >> > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag >> > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with >> > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone >> > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. > Sounds like plain old RTL--which was certainly available in 1969. > > --Chuck > > I started buying RTL (uL9xx series) in '68. I got my first parts from a "engineers junkbox" back around 1966. uL914 was dual two input nor uL923 was a single JK FF The basic inverter was transistor with resistor in the base and collector load, a NOR was two transistors each with resistor on the base and a common collector load. The package was TO5 8 lead. Motorola the 7xx series was 14 pin DIP and had more of the same in the package like two FF, hex inverter, quad two input NOR, three input NOR and others. RTL was slow, FFs could clock to maybe a bit more than 10mhz. They sucked current and had poor fanout/fan-in with high susceptibility to noise. Hobbyists used them as analog functions as well (the dual 2 input nor made a dandy differential amps) . I still have an assortment of those parts including uL913 full adders. In the later 60s Motorola offered ECL 1000 series which were far faster but even less dense. They were popular with hobbyists for analog uses as the devices could offer 100mhz gain as differential pairs. DTL was also around then, added series diodes on the base to make the thresholds higher. it was more noise immune and faster. The first 4000 series parts were late 68-69. By 1971 it was fairly common and inexpensive. Though slow it was very low power, good noise immunity, and faster than RTL though not by much. TTL was common by 1970, I built a state machine controller using about 200 pieces for a work project in 1972. The 95H90 was the first 300Mhz ECL /10 counter and was available by 1972 at hobbyist prices. In 1973 I used the 1101 256bit by one Pmos static ram. The fast parts were 1us and the slow ere 1.6uS. The 8008 was a PMOS chip. The concept of a transistor computer was fairly dead but 1966-7. As ICs had started to displace raw transistors most everywhere save for high power needs like core drivers and analog functions. Allison From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon Apr 30 17:46:59 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 00:46:59 +0200 Subject: ibm funky 3 1/2 inch disk In-Reply-To: <20120426162342.J62812@shell.lmi.net> References: <1335480731.8873.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120426162342.J62812@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1335826019.16393.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tor 2012-04-26 klockan 16:24 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > i have one of the IBM:made minidisk ? (looks a bit like a normal 3-1/2 > > inch floppy) drives. > > Which model? > > > Any source for disks ? > > for which model? > > > ibm mta 3230 tc2210 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 30 17:47:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > What hewaters are nearly always hardwired over here too WHAT is hardwired? > Now, a shower heater is an instantaneous water heater used to heat the > water for a shower bath. They would almost always be hard wired, the > regualtions prohibit any socket outlets in a 'room containing a fixed > bath or shower'. Is a "fixed" bath or shower one that has been repaired? Or, as with a "fixed disk", using the veterinary meaning? Here, some areas require that new construction have a GFCI in kitchen and bath. But non-GFCI, and even ungrounded, outlets abound, and ABSOLUTELY EVERY bathroom has outlets. However, to protect the citizenry, hair dryers carry a warning label to not use them in the water. (Our "nanny state" is into "warning labels". You can buy a roll of duct tape, and it may have a warning to wear safety goggles; automotive cruise control warns to continue to steer, . . . .) And yet, if you think about it, every single warning label probably arises from a specific incident. Some of which are difficult to comprehend - wouldn't it be a bit FUTILE to try to dry your hair underwater? > > call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that > > comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. Here, a "hotplate' tends to mean a casually portable stove burner, such as what one might smuggle in to use in a dorm room. Several peoples divided by a common language. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 30 17:49:58 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120430154859.M65017@shell.lmi.net> > > Called a GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) here. > > Now often GCFI or GFCI ("circuit" needed to be mentioned) On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, now you mention it, I haev heard that term, and it is the same thing. > We used to call them 'ELCB's (Earth Leakaga Circuit Breaker), I have no > idea why the name was changed. Because Texans don't want to sound British, and vice versa? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 18:14:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:14:43 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: from "David Riley" at Apr 29, 12 09:58:34 pm, Message-ID: <4F9EBA73.19191.18C2A36@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 21:42, Tony Duell wrote: > Tell me about it. I once ahd to recalibrate an oven thermostat after > repariign it (it was a few days before Newtonsday, we needed the oven > to cook the turkey, and the correct repalcement was totally > unobtainable so I had to repair the old thermostat). I found that the > on/off points were not even approximately repaatable.... I think I got > it somehwat near and said 'try that'. Well, the food was edible... Do electric ovens in the UK use the "Gas Mark" convention? It took me a little research on how to translate GM/Regulo settings to degrees F--basically it's 250F+GM*25. Fractional GMs are still a little confusing. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 30 18:33:59 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: House wiring [was Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201204302333.TAA02974@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Now, a shower heater is an instantaneous water heater used to heat > the water for a shower bath. They would almost always be hard wired, > the regualtions prohibit any socket outlets in a 'room containing a > fixed bath or shower'. Ours don't go that far. We frequently have shaver outlets in ours. Historically they were two-prong outlets with 1:1 ("isolation") transformers between them and the mains feed, the idea being that it's impossible to get a jolt between either pole and ground. These days such outlets usually use GFIs instead - I don't quite understand why, but electric code has often made little sense to me. (Replacing a comparatively simple (and thus reliable) and certain device with a complex device which doesn't even do the whole job strikes me as a net lose. Perhaps it was kickbacks from - er, lobbying by - GFI makers.) But then, I also have a vague feeling that much of Europe takes the various conveniences the USA and Canada generally lump together into the "bathroom" and splits them up among multiple rooms in various ways. This might be related because would mean that your side of the pond has less desire for a shaver outlet in the same room as a shower or bath than ours does. > Oer here, gas tuimble driers are _very_ uncommon. Come to think of it, I can't recall seeing one here either. > [...cooker/stove...oven...hotplate...] In general the separate units > are designed to be fixed into kitchen furniture ,the complte > 'cookers' are free-standing appliances. I've also seen small hotplates - usually two-burner ones - as portable units, set up (and presumably designed) for plugging into an ordinary mains outlet, here meaning the 15V 110-120V sort that are usual here. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 18:48:18 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:48:18 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4F9EC252.25128.1AAE91F@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 15:00, CRC wrote: > To totally confuse the situation, the TMS2716 in not compatible with > the Intel 2716 whereas the TMS2516 is, The TMS2732 is industry > standard whereas the TMS2532 is not. This goes back to the time when > the industry was sorting out what was going to be standard - one > should be extremely careful when choosing, changing, or programming > PROMs of this vintage. It was a mess, wasn't it? Motorola offered both the MCM2716 (single supply) and the TMS2716 (3 supply) PROMs. Moto seemed to want to continue the 24-pin line to the 8KB MCM68764 instead of the 28 pin 2764. The biggest difference I remember on the 2732 (TI vs. Intel) is where Vpp went. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 30 19:00:21 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> What hewaters are nearly always hardwired over here too > WHAT is hardwired? s/What hewaters/Water heaters/. tony's typing is not always everything it could be. On that point I have been cutting him slack; typos like his don't bother me nearly as much as word-choice sloppiness (cf the pernicious "lo(o)se"). In this particular case, it was even more confusing than usual; I found it helpful to note that he was replying to a line of mine with a list of devices that included water heaters. >> regualtions prohibit any socket outlets in a 'room containing a >> fixed bath or shower'. > Is a "fixed" bath or shower one that has been repaired? > Or, as with a "fixed disk", using the veterinary meaning? As in "not portable", I would hazard to guess. Support for portable bathing borders on nonexistent in my (North American) experience, short of camping equipment and the like, but it would not surprise me if Europe (in the geological sense) had far more remnants of the days when a bath was often, even usually, taken in a portable tub which got carried around as needed. > Several peoples divided by a common language. _So_ true. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 30 19:19:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:19:49 -0700 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4F9F0F65.9040809@verizon.net> References: , , <4F9F0F65.9040809@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F9EC9B5.15042.1C7C57D@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2012 at 18:17, allison wrote: > The concept of a transistor computer was fairly dead but 1966-7. As > ICs had started to displace raw transistors most everywhere save for > high power needs like core drivers and analog functions. CDC was very slow to abandon the "cordwood" modules in its 6000 series machines as well as the Cyber 70 line. I don't think that ICs came into use in the CPU until the Cyber 170 (mid-1970s). Even the backplanes used twisted-pair taper-pin connections. STAR (circa 1979) used ICs, but they were mostly custom jobs-- Fairchild's inability to deliver ICs for the register file almost sunk the project. The Cyber 203 version used what Neil Lincoln called his "box of Chiclets" approach--a limited number of ICs that would fill a box of the chewing gum tablets. I recall that Honeywell re-engineered one of their second-generation mainframes to use ECL ICs and wound up, after a lot of development expene, with a system that ran just as fast as the old one. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 30 19:52:52 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:52:52 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9EC252.25128.1AAE91F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9EC252.25128.1AAE91F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9F33E4.8000408@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The biggest difference I remember on the 2732 (TI vs. Intel) is where > Vpp went. --Chuck The TI TMS2732 and Intel 2732 were pin and function compatible and had nearly identical specifications. It is the TMS2532 that had Vpp on a different pin (which could result in damage if you tried to program a TMS2532 as a 2732, or vice versa). However, A11 is on a different pin. The 2732 has separate CE* and OE* pins, while the TMS2532 only has a CE*. It is easy to wire an adapter to use a 2732 in a 2532 socket. The reverse is not true. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 19:50:24 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:50:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2012, at 18:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > (Our "nanny state" is into "warning labels". You can buy a roll of duct > tape, and it may have a warning to wear safety goggles; automotive > cruise control warns to continue to steer, . . . .) And yet, if you > think about it, every single warning label probably arises from a > specific incident. Some of which are difficult to comprehend - wouldn't > it be a bit FUTILE to try to dry your hair underwater? > >>> call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that >>> comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. > > Here, a "hotplate' tends to mean a casually portable stove burner, such as > what one might smuggle in to use in a dorm room. > > > > Several peoples divided by a common language. > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 30 20:19:44 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:19:44 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9F3A30.4000407@brouhaha.com> CRC wrote: > and also failed until he looked at the schematics for his unit and > found yet another pin out for what appeared to be a 2716 equivalent. > The PROMs in question are NEC2316 about which information is unobtainium. I think you're referring to the NEC ?PD2316E, which isn't a PROM. It's a masked ROM. NEC's masked ROM business came from their acquisition of Electronic Arrays, and the NEC ?PD2316E was originally the EA8316E, so you can find data in either an EA databook, or an early NEC databook, such as the 1982 NEC Catalog. The 2716 pinout was designed to be similar to the pinout of 2K*8 masked ROMs, but is generally not identical, because the masked ROMs had three chip selects with mask-selectable polarities, while the 2716 has a single chip select and a single output enable (which may in some situations be used as a second chip select), and the chip select and output enable are active low only, not configurable. For example the 8316E/2316E (from any of several vendors) is used in the Apple II and II+, but can't be directly replaced with an EPROM. I've put a scan of the 1982 NEC catalog pages at: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/vendor/nec/upd2316e.pdf Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 30 20:17:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120430181652.D65017@shell.lmi.net> I don't understand your response! Am I missing something? On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 30, 2012, at 18:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > (Our "nanny state" is into "warning labels". You can buy a roll of duct > > tape, and it may have a warning to wear safety goggles; automotive > > cruise control warns to continue to steer, . . . .) And yet, if you > > think about it, every single warning label probably arises from a > > specific incident. Some of which are difficult to comprehend - wouldn't > > it be a bit FUTILE to try to dry your hair underwater? > > > >>> call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that > >>> comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. > > > > Here, a "hotplate' tends to mean a casually portable stove burner, such as > > what one might smuggle in to use in a dorm room. > > > > > > > > Several peoples divided by a common language. > > > > > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 21:07:48 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:07:48 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120430181652.D65017@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <20120430181652.D65017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Apr 30, 2012, at 21:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't understand your response! > > Am I missing something? > My "smart" phone did something dumb and I thought it had cancelled my just-trimmed message before I wrote anything. Apparently it sent it instead. Anyway, read on... > On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > >> On Apr 30, 2012, at 18:47, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> (Our "nanny state" is into "warning labels". You can buy a roll of duct >>> tape, and it may have a warning to wear safety goggles; automotive >>> cruise control warns to continue to steer, . . . .) And yet, if you >>> think about it, every single warning label probably arises from a >>> specific incident. Some of which are difficult to comprehend - wouldn't >>> it be a bit FUTILE to try to dry your hair underwater? My favorite was a warning label on a knife (made in China) which simply said "KEEP OUT OF CHILDREN". Good advice, relatively easy to follow. - Dave From segin2005 at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 21:23:07 2012 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:23:07 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> Mouse wrote: >>> What hewaters are nearly always hardwired over here too >> WHAT is hardwired? > s/What hewaters/Water heaters/. tony's typing is not always everything > it could be. On that point I have been cutting him slack; typos like > his don't bother me nearly as much as word-choice sloppiness (cf the > pernicious "lo(o)se"). In this particular case, it was even more > confusing than usual; I found it helpful to note that he was replying > to a line of mine with a list of devices that included water heaters. I haven't been paying attention, but is English his first langauge? >>> regualtions prohibit any socket outlets in a 'room containing a >>> fixed bath or shower'. >> Is a "fixed" bath or shower one that has been repaired? >> Or, as with a "fixed disk", using the veterinary meaning? > Fixed in the sense of fixed disk. As in, stuck in it's place by design. As opposed to a non-fixed disk, that can be removed from the drive assembly (usually in the form of a cartridge, like a floppy disk or an SD card.) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 30 21:35:21 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:35:21 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9F4BE9.3070402@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/30/2012 8:23 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > Fixed in the sense of fixed disk. As in, stuck in it's place by design. > As opposed to a non-fixed disk, that can be removed from the drive > assembly (usually in the form of a cartridge, like a floppy disk or an > SD card.) > Why even bother saying fixed? I have yet to see bathroom items that say roll and still be connected to water and drain? Ben. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 22:17:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:17:07 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41BF0B94-800C-4E24-A79E-49216D09A6CB@gmail.com> On Apr 30, 2012, at 22:23, Kirn Gill wrote: > Mouse wrote: >>>> What hewaters are nearly always hardwired over here too >>> WHAT is hardwired? >> s/What hewaters/Water heaters/. tony's typing is not always everything >> it could be. On that point I have been cutting him slack; typos like >> his don't bother me nearly as much as word-choice sloppiness (cf the >> pernicious "lo(o)se"). In this particular case, it was even more >> confusing than usual; I found it helpful to note that he was replying >> to a line of mine with a list of devices that included water heaters. > I haven't been paying attention, but is English his first langauge? Yes. Some of us aren't perfect typists, but it's not really important. You can still read it, no? - Dave From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 10:46:13 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:46:13 -0500 Subject: new amiga book has been released In-Reply-To: <4F9EA94B.8040407@verizon.net> References: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> <4F9EA94B.8040407@verizon.net> Message-ID: Looks interesting.Just did a quick look at a specific section regarding the Atari/Amiga/Commodore triangle, and unfortunately he got most of that material wrong. On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > Hey, > > I thought some of you might like to know that an MIT Press book, ala "Racing > the Beam", has been released on the Amiga. > > "The Future Was Here: The Commodore Amiga (Platform Studies)" > > Amazon link: > > http://tinyurl.com/d3xnnfp > > Received my copy a couple days ago. > > Keith > -- Marty From dave_rowland at btinternet.com Mon Apr 30 12:15:24 2012 From: dave_rowland at btinternet.com (Dave Rowland) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:15:24 +0100 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74504124-940b-45c0-b55c-91e607fc8d72@email.android.com> In our rtl computer the base resistors were 10k. The collector load 1k and a 100k from the base to a -ve supply. Cant remember what the transistor types were -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. In the late 60's and 70's, radio shack sold some little one-bit-flip-flop boards with lamps. Each flip flop was a little square of circuit board. There may have been other logic functions available one-to-a-board. I'm pretty sure they were discrete transistors for the most part (even the round package SSI Motorola RTL typically had two gates or flip flops per package.) You could buy multiples and configure them as a counter, and I'm pretty sure they could be wired as a shift register too. May have been "Archerkit" brand name. Or "Pbox" brand name although what I remember were not Pbox's but circuit boards. I tried using websearches to find pictures or docs, but the Googles, they do nothing! Tim. From martinm at allwest.net Mon Apr 30 13:38:11 2012 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:38:11 -0600 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301cd2700$653ea520$2fbbef60$@net> -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 10:59 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: discrete transistor computer On 29 Apr 2012 at 18:46, Richard Smith wrote: > This thread reminds me of a computer we built at school from discrete > transistors. Each transistor was a NOR gate with three resistors on > the base and a collector resistor. All soldered onto squares of tag > board. We put a bunch of them together to build a shift register with > small laps as output. That would be about 1969 or 1970. Does anyone > remember any more? It must have been a published design somewhere. In the late 60's and 70's, radio shack sold some little one-bit-flip-flop boards with lamps. Each flip flop was a little square of circuit board. There may have been other logic functions available one-to-a-board. I'm pretty sure they were discrete transistors for the most part (even the round package SSI Motorola RTL typically had two gates or flip flops per package.) You could buy multiples and configure them as a counter, and I'm pretty sure they could be wired as a shift register too. May have been "Archerkit" brand name. Or "Pbox" brand name although what I remember were not Pbox's but circuit boards. I tried using websearches to find pictures or docs, but the Googles, they do nothing! Tim. Tim: Look at http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/ Radio Shack Catalogs from 1939 to 2005 Martin Marshall From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 16:14:16 2012 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:14:16 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Gone extinct; From: Fred Cisin Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Apr 2012, Murray McCullough wrote: > I came across some interesting reading the other day in a library book> that I'm sorry I can't remember its name. It essentially said: Can one> subscribe to the theory that vintage computers, such as the Coleco> ADAM, went extinct because they used cassette drives where one spent> more time finding information and recording such which greatly slowed> down processing thereby defeating the purpose of electronic computing? Now I'm wodering, could the conveniently non-attributed "came across some interesting reading" question may not have been disingenuous, and somewhat rhetorical? I have never considered the Coleco Adam to have ANY historical significance, and tend to assume that any mention of it is an attempt at comprehensive completeness, or personal fondness. Yet, it turns out that C. Murray McCullough is the author of a history about microcomputers. On the cover of it, he gives Adam a position of greater importance than the others that he mentions: ADAM (in ORANGE, the others are in white) APPLE II TRS-80 MODEL I ZENITH HEATHKIT In the index (I could not get Amazon's "Look Inside" to show me any of the text past the Preamble, which doesn't get to the time of microcomputers),He has 25 entries for "Adam", enormously disproportionate (12 for "Commodore" PLUS 6 for "COMMODORE", 2 for TRS-80, . . . ) Dare I guess what Murray's first computer was? (Baby duck syndrome?) Nevertheless, the writing style looks intersting, and I may seek out a copy. "JPL (Job Control Language)"??!? ************************************************************************************ With unlimited stars in the universe so there seems to be an unlimited opinion on when things started & where & by whom in the microcomputer universe. (There is no consensus on what a microcomputer is!) Corporations, individuals protect valuable information and certain knowledge that is never made public. We can only hope that inaccurate information from these sources doesn?t occur. I came across the book in the Toronto Reference Library and I seldom get there because of the distance from my farm. I did not copy the name of the book or authour down and this is a serious error on my part. There was no disingenuosity on my part and in no way was it my intention to denigrate the book or authour. A reasoned argument around mustered facts, as was present in this book as far as this reader was concerned, cannot easily be dismissed nor ignored. I did write a book on the history of microcomputers ? A Historical Research Guide to the Microcomputer. ( Many thanks for mentioning it. ) It was on the early years of micro-computing up to the arrival of the IBM PC. I?ve been a member of the (Coleco)ADAM computer convention organization since 1989 and this was why I highlighted the computer in my book. I do indeed have a personal fondness for a computer Coleco abandoned and was taken up by die-hard followers. [ BTW my first computer was the Heathkit which I spent many an hour assembling, debugging and trying like the devil to get working! And what an expensive computer to buy in Canada. ] As Grumpy Ol? Fred wrote -> Because we have an interest in the computers that existed before y'all cared and/or we REALIZE that we came in late, and we're INTERESTED in what had already been happening. OR we're just a bunch of old farts who wish that we could go back half a century. <- To be involved in the early years of micro-computing I consider myself privileged but possibly cognition and memory are getting fuzzy. It?s not a reason to justify what I?ve written, errors committed, but may explain it as an excuse! Murray--