From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 00:46:32 2011 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 08:46:32 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation In-Reply-To: <4E869108.5000509@bitsavers.org> References: <4E869108.5000509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2011/10/1 Al Kossow : > I assume you've tried following this lead > http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware/2007-03/msg00075.html > > From: "Bob Eager" > Date: 4 Mar 2007 14:07:07 GMT > "I have 68X-2229, First Edition, dated April 1987." Yes. Bob only had the first edition, anyway. Cheers, Bogdan From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 1 03:14:03 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 01:14:03 -0700 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation In-Reply-To: References: <4E869108.5000509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E86CBCB.40400@jwsss.com> The second message in the thread has this: http://www.elink.ibmlink.ibm.com/publications/servlet/pbi.wss?CTY=US&FNC=SRX&PBL=S68X-2229-00 which went directly to a page to order it from IBM. One of the other listings was of someone with a copy who would scan or copy it. On 9/30/2011 10:46 PM, Bogdan Barbu wrote: > 2011/10/1 Al Kossow: >> I assume you've tried following this lead >> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware/2007-03/msg00075.html >> >> From: "Bob Eager" >> Date: 4 Mar 2007 14:07:07 GMT >> "I have 68X-2229, First Edition, dated April 1987." > Yes. Bob only had the first edition, anyway. > > Cheers, > Bogdan > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Oct 1 09:11:26 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 10:11:26 -0400 Subject: Algol 68C For PDP-10 Message-ID: Rob Jarratt writes: > Many moons ago I taught myself Algol 68 using ALGOL 68C on a DECSYSTEM-20. > I would love to find a copy of this to install on SIMH if at all possible. > I have a vague recollection that it may have been on a DECUS tape, so I am > wondering if anyone has any such thing in their archives? A lot of academic-type work related to Algol is frequently remembered or cited in academic literature but many of them were branches that never made it into DEC or DECUS collections. Algol-related DECUS PDP-10 library entries include: SAIL/FAIL, Version: 18, August 1976 10-86 Author: Dan Swinehart, Robert Sproul. et al. Revised by: Les Earnest. Stanford University, Stanford. CA Source Language: FAIL Memory Required: 50K of user core Special Hardware Required: 4-Series or later monitor Keywords: ALGOL; SAIL;FAIL; Programming-Language Abstract: SAIL is a high-level programming language for the PDP-I0computer. ALGOLW, Version: 2, December 1973 10-133 Author: Michael Green Submitted by: W. D. Wagers, Digital Equipment Corp.. Maynard. MARevised by: W. D. Wagers Source Language: META 2 Keywords: ALGOL Abstract: This is the W subset of ALGOL. ALGOLW is a blockstructured language suitable for scientific applications. Its specificationsare written by computer scientists. ALGOLW is easy to use and thenintime package is efficient. DEC-20 Review Note: See 20-35 SYNTAX, Version: 2, December 1973 10-185 Author: Michael Green Submitted by: W. D. Wagers. Digital Equipment C0rp.. Maynard, MA Revised by: Michael Green Source Language: ALGOLW (DECUS No. 10-133) Keywords: Syntax:Utility?Programming; Grammar Abstract: SYNTAX is useful in defining programming languages. Itanalyzes the grammar of a language and determines if it is a simpleprecedence grammar. It lists the productions and symbols of the grammarand any identical right parts and any symbol pairs with multiple relations.It then lists the precedence matrix and produces a binary copy.DEC-20 Review Note: See 20-6]. N0 Documentation Available. Media (Service Charge Code): DECtape (HA). 600' Magtape (MA) ororder 10-LIB-2 META2, Version: 2, December 1973 10-186 Author: Michael Green. Digital Equipment C0rp.. Maynard. MASubmitted by: W. D. Wagers Revised by: Michael Green Source Language: META2 Keywords: META2; Compiler-Writer Abstract: META2 is a compiler writer. It was used to write ALGOLW(DECKS No. 10-133) but is sufficiently general purpose to write otherlanguages for the DECsystem-IO. The compiler is defined by a series ofspecifications input to META2. META2 is written in itself. and is easilymodified. DEC-20 Review Note: See 20-62 GNOSIS: A System for Computer Aided In- 10-211 struction, Version: 2, June 1978 Author: Jacob Palme and Dr. Walter Manet. Research Inst. of NationalDefense. Sweden. and Old Dominion University, Virginia. Source Language: ALGOL Memory Required: 32 + 22P Storage Other Software Required: ALGOL, 6.03 (KL + VM) Keywords: GNOSIS; CAI; instruction; Teaching; Education; Computer; Learning: School;Pedagogy: Pedagogics; ALGOL: SIMULA Abstract: Though compatability has been preserved with the first releaseof GNOSIS. Release 2 represents not merely a software update, but acomplete re-authoring of GNOSIS from beginning to end. GNOSIS provides a CAI authoring language which makes itrelatively easy for any teacher with a basic understanding of ?pro-grammed? textbooks to develop computerized tutorials for his students.Although material already written in such a format can be transformedvirtually as~is by GNOSIS into a form suitable for computer delivery, theteacher would normally be writing his own ?script?. This script. because itsimulates the dialogue one might overhear if that teacher were tutoring astudent in private, can be made to ?come to life" on a computer terminalby the addition of a few simple GNOSIS command words. Thecomputer-driven tutorial is, in reality. a compiled version of the ALGOLprogram GNOSIS writes in response to the script prepared by the teacher.In fact. GNOSIS can be designed in such a way that any of the facilities ofALGOL can be exploited anywhere in the lesson. The fact that GNOSIS has been designed to function as a reachingrather than as a testing system is reflected in program logic at all levels. Inaccord with this design philosophy. GNOSIS tempers negative andpositive feedback according to physchological context, simulates a correctresponse (and the comment which would have accompanied it) when allelse fails, encourages student control through skipping and backsteppingfacilities. and generates teacher reports which are geared to lessonimprovement. Note: The documentation that is on magnetic media is not as up-to-dateas what is available in hardcopy. However. the machine readable versionwill suffice. DEC-20 Review Note: See 20-74 SIMULA for DECsystem-10 KA/Kl/KL and 10-223 DECsystem-20, Version: 4A (310), August 1978 Author: Swedish National Defense Research Institute. SwedenSubmitted by: H. David Todd. Wesleyan University. Middletown. CTRevised by: Lars Enderin. Swedish National Defense Research lnst.. and Wayne M. Brehaut. Acadia University. Wolfville. N.S. Canada BOP 1X0 Operating System: TOPS-l0 V5.00 upwards: TOPS-20 VIB upwardsMemory Required: (for Kl/KL. DEC-20) 25K, (for KA) 32K to use. 64Kto build Keywords: SIMULA: ALGOL; Programming-Language: Util-ity; SAFEIO; SIMDBM Abstract: SIMULA is a general-purpose high-level programming languagecomparable in power to PL/l or ALGOL 68. SIMULA is based onALGOL 60 with the addition of record-oriented dynamic memoryallocation. reference (pointer) structures. sets and queues. test-andcharacter handling. sequential and direct access input-output. quasi-parallel sequencing (coroutines) and process (event) oriented simulationcapabilities. Well adapted to structured programming methodology.SIMULA will often considerably reduce programming time compared to conventional languages like FORTRAN, COBOL or PL./l. SIMULA on the DECsystem-10 contains two major additions to the SIMULAlanguage: a system for separately compiled program modules in SIMULA.FORTRAN or MACRO-10 and a powerful on-line debugging system,SIMDDT. SIMULA compiles at half the speed of the DECsysteni-l0ALGOL compiler. The CPU time when running SIMULA programs isabout the same as for ALGOL. faster for input-output and text stringhandling. slower for stack-oriented memory allocation. This package also contains SAFEIO (V. August l978) which is apackage to enable safe question-and-answer dialogue with a conversationterminal. Also contained is SIMDBM (V.l. January l978) which is a data basehandling system based on the ideas in the CODASYL DBTG proposal,but written entirely in SIMULA for the use by SIMULA programs. Nobuilt-in facilities exist for privacy constraints or for solving multiterminalaccess conflicts. 0 Documentation for SAFEIO and SIMDBM are on magneticmedia. I KA-l0 users. the manuals listed also apply to the KA version ofSIMULA. The only difference is that on the KA-l0 the precision of longarithmetic is 54 bits. compared to 62 bits on the KI-10; consequently. page89 of part ll of the revised handbook. lines 6-8. should read: ?Thefractional part has a range in magnitude of 1/, to (l-2?)-52) with a precisionof approximately 16 decimal digits.? Order 10-223B for Part l of the Language Handbook: Manual (ED), alsoon tape. Order l0~223C for Part ll of the Language Handbook: Manual (ED). also on tape. Order l0-223D for Part [ll of the Language Handbook: Manual (EC). alsoon tape. Order l0?223E for the Implementation Guide: Manual (EA), also on tape.Order l0-2232 for the SIMDBM and SAFIO write-up: Write-Up (AA).also on tape. Restrictions: A TOPS-20 version is contained but is insufficiently tested.users are warned it may not work at all. Only those prepared to attemptcorrection of any errors on their own should use the tape. Note: One copy of l0-223E will be shipped automatically with all magtape requests. DEC-20 Review Note: See 20-78. Ordering Information: Order l0-223 for 2400' Magtape (PA) Documentation an magnetic media. Media (Service Charge Code): See Ordering Information listed above. ororder 10-LIB-5 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 1 11:36:23 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 09:36:23 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: <4E84A11A.3050705@jwsss.com> References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com> <4E84A11A.3050705@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E874187.6090507@bitsavers.org> On 9/29/11 9:47 AM, jim s wrote: > How to get them to you intact is another question. I don't trust shipping magnetics anymore. > The best article I have ever seen on this is Geller's "Erasing Myths About Magnetic Media" which I've uploaded to: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/nbs/publications/Geller_Erasing_Myths_About_Magnetic_Media_Mar76.pdf From l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 13:14:04 2011 From: l4b.bogdan.barbu at gmail.com (Bogdan Barbu) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 21:14:04 +0300 Subject: [REWARD] Request for documentation In-Reply-To: <4E86CBCB.40400@jwsss.com> References: <4E869108.5000509@bitsavers.org> <4E86CBCB.40400@jwsss.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/1 Jim Stephens : > The second message in the thread has this: > > http://www.elink.ibmlink.ibm.com/publications/servlet/pbi.wss?CTY=US&FNC=SRX&PBL=S68X-2229-00 > which went directly to a page to order it from IBM. It's out of stock. If you go to http://www-05.ibm.com/e-business/linkweb/publications/servlet/pbi.wss?SSN=11JAS0000267457068&FNC=SRH and select a search filter other than "All publications," you will see that it no longer appears. As I've said, I've already tried with IBM. > One of the other listings was of someone with a copy who would scan or copy > it. Yes, the same thread, same _person_ (Bob Eager), and as I've said, he only had the first edition. :) Cheers, Bogdan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 12:44:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:44:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Oct 1, 11 01:23:23 am Message-ID: > One question: this is all old stuff, experience is 100% a necessity. > Why a batchelors? What does earning a degree gain you in the field of > vintage computing, particularly this field that you needed to have > been there to have seen it in the first place? I know plenty of people with degrees in computer science, enmgineering, etc who I would not let withing 20 feet of a soldering iron or a PDP11. I also know unqualified people who I would be happy to have work on vintage machines. And vice versa. There is simply no correlation. Most computer science degrees, at least over here, have very little hardware content. That which there is is remarkably non-specific (and one infamous book, recomended all over the palce is a waste of trees IMHO). I don't think many CS graduates have ever seen the full scehamtic of any real processor, and as I discovered (the hard way!), the devil is in the details. You may well understnad the general principles, but be totally lost when presented with the pritset for a PDP11/45. And even more lost when presented with a rack of boards for which no schematics exist. Similarly Operating Systems. Oh, CS graduates probably know how to write a scheduler but would be lost if asked to actually write a device driver that works. And I wonder how many CS courses include assmebly language or machine code any more -- things that are essential when you're staring at a logic anaylser trying to work out what the darn procrssor is doing this time... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 12:47:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:47:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 30, 11 08:32:14 pm Message-ID: > > > Granted this is the UK, US might be different, but why the need for a > > piece of paper? > > A piece of paper shows that the holder has at least some stamina and > backbone to actually finish something, in some official way. Err, no. That's a Ph.D. surely. More seriously, a first degree often shows you could be bothered to turn up to the lectures and rememebr what you were told. A higher degree should indicate that you have the ability to solve problems on your own, which IMHO is a much more valuable skill (certainly for a job like this). Note that a higher degree is not the _only_ way to show you have such skills. I put no value at all on bits of paper... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 12:21:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:21:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Firmware library was Kaypro 4 CP/M disks In-Reply-To: <4E85C432.3339.1799512@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 30, 11 01:29:22 pm Message-ID: > I was still thinking about reading PAL/HAL/bipolar ROM in 0.300" wide > DIP sockets. I'm not aware of a PAL with center-fed power, are you? All the PALs/HALs/GALs I'ev used (in DIL pacakges)_ have corner power pins. However I was looking at a more general solution because I have some very odd machines with very odd programamble devices. > > As far as power for EPROMs and the like, that could be handled pretty > easily, as for most devices, it's Vcc that moves around a bit. Some _Most_ EPROMs have corner power and ground pins. There are exceptions (and even nore exceptions when you look at mask ROMs). I have an old Logical Devices universal programmer somewhere. It's pretty useless because I've never managed to finf the PC interface card or software fro it. Anyway, it has a 40 pin ZIF socket and 5 pin driver boards, each driving 8 og the pins (with one exception, see below). From what I rememebr, there are 3 or 4 programable PSUs inside (set by DACs), the pin driver can connect a pin to any one of them or ground. Said pin drivers are stuffed with ULNxxxx buffer ICs, not suprisingly... Oh yes, they scratched hte numbers off the ICs, but that puzzled me for at least an hour. Anyway, the exception. Pin 20 -- the bottom left corner -- of the ZIF socket is directly connected to ground. Apparently getting a solid ground is harder than it looks, and pretty important. And I guess all the devices this programmer could support had ground in that corner. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 12:51:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:51:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <1a0edf80bc23cb7a2ca33150bf2b6e0c@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Sep 30, 11 06:12:42 pm Message-ID: > Realistically, I expect they are pretty flexible and are going to be=20 > looking at the overall person, their background, and competence. Yes, I suspect that _engineers_ (or scientists) would be flexible, and would realise that somebody who was happy writing mathematical programs is not going to have much problem picking up Excel (say). The problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is not going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 12:38:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:38:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Rich Alderson" at Sep 30, 11 05:11:26 pm Message-ID: This is all academic, since I am certainly not going to apply for said job. There's no way I could contemplate crossing the Pond for one thing. [...] > > Sr. Server Engineer Is iths a 'server engineer' or a 'sevice engineer'? My first thought is tha the latter is a better description. I don't see much that is to do with servers in the accepted sense. Ahving read the full job description, requirements, etc, I must admit I am somewhat depressed. Even if I say so myself, I think I have some clue about repairing and maintaining vintage systems. And yet I meet none of the requirements. Now you may well not want somebody like me, I can fully understnad that. I do think the 'requriements' are peculiar. For one thing you require somebody who is familiar with certain things (such as Microsoft Office). Now, I'll admit I've never used said programs, preferign to use LaTeX for test formatting, and never having had any use for a spreadsheet. But I am prepared to wager that if I had to use them, I'd be able to pick them up in an afternoon, and would abnybody else who had sufficient knowledge of computer hardware and software to be able to do the rest of the job. Alas HR departments don't grasp this. You also seem to want somebody which experience in wildiy differnt areas. If you're not carefulm, you're going to get somebody who's dabbled in all sorts of things rather than somebody who is an expert in a particular area. Maybe that's what you want. Prsonally, I'd rather have a true expert in a particular field (who is very likely to be able to pick up related fields very quicking) than a 'jack of all trades and master of none'. And you seem to perpetuate the myth that nobody can be self-taught in these fields, by requiring a degree and field service experience. With reference to the latter, I would argue that the requirements of field service (being able to get the machine up and running quickly, original spares avaialble, known-good asemblies to swap out avaialbe, etc) are very differnt form the requirements of a museum (keeping the machien as original as possible, some parts may have to be made, or adapted, no-known-good spare boards, etc) are very different. You may be good at one and awful at the other. So asking for field service experience may not be what you want I think it woudl also be useful to specify the sorts of machines (or approximate dates) involved. My experience suggests that troubleshooting a transistorised machine is somewhat different from troubleshooting an SSI/MSI based machine which is in turn differnet from troubleshooting a microprocessor-based machine. Perhaps you want to cover all of them, it's not clear. Oh well, as I said it's academic anyway. had it been over here, I might well have given it a go, though. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 1 15:17:26 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 13:17:26 -0700 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e0d4b20344bcb0cd734af7ec127a9ac@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Oct 1, at 10:51 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Realistically, I expect they are pretty flexible and are going to >> be=20 >> looking at the overall person, their background, and competence. > > Yes, I suspect that _engineers_ (or scientists) would be flexible, and > would realise that somebody who was happy writing mathematical programs > is not going to have much problem picking up Excel (say). > > The problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is > not > going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a > preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all > candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria. Maybe, maybe not; depends on the how the company is organised. Vulcan may have a lot of money behind it, but it is a company for Allen's personal interests, supporting specialty interests and areas, I'd hazard a guess the people - even in a presumed HR department - are aware of that. It's not really Giant Faceless Corporation. I wouldn't be surprised if all the resumes ended up on the desk of Rich or Ian or someone similar. (As an applicant) one might prepare for the worst, but one needn't presume it. From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 1 15:52:59 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 14:52:59 -0600 Subject: at&t 3b1 pc 7300 documentation Message-ID: <4E877DAB.6020208@e-bbes.com> Hi all, anybody likes to have any of those? Have some of the original red books, but probably won't use any of them anytime soon. Pay shipping etc, ... Cheers From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 1 16:58:52 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 17:58:52 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E878D1C.502@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/10/11 1:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Granted this is the UK, US might be different, but why the need for a >>> piece of paper? >> >> A piece of paper shows that the holder has at least some stamina and >> backbone to actually finish something, in some official way. > > Err, no. That's a Ph.D. surely. Ted Nelson, in his classic Computer Lib/Dream Machines (1974): 'Swarthmore left me with an exaggerated notion of the extent to which ideas are valued in the academic world; it took two graduate schools to clear this up. After that, as far as I was concerned, Ph.D. stood for Poophead.' --Toby > > More seriously, a first degree often shows you could be bothered to turn > up to the lectures and rememebr what you were told. A higher degree > should indicate that you have the ability to solve problems on your own, > which IMHO is a much more valuable skill (certainly for a job like this). > > Note that a higher degree is not the _only_ way to show you have such > skills. I put no value at all on bits of paper... > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 1 17:36:38 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 15:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E878D1C.502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E878D1C.502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net> > Ted Nelson, in his classic Computer Lib/Dream Machines (1974): > 'Swarthmore left me with an exaggerated notion of the extent to which > ideas are valued in the academic world; it took two graduate schools to > clear this up. After that, as far as I was concerned, Ph.D. stood for > Poophead.' Ted is not always thoroughly in touch with academia. BS is BullShit MS is More of the Same PhD is Piled Higher and Deeper Several of my degrees have had unexpected very powerful impact on employment in ways that I had never intended when I was in college. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 17:42:54 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 19:42:54 -0300 Subject: It works :oD References: <4E878D1C.502@telegraphics.com.au> <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com/2011/10/hp16500c-hp16505a-e-oitocentesimo-post.html --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 18:02:07 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:02:07 -0500 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E878D1C.502@telegraphics.com.au> <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Several of my degrees have had unexpected very powerful impact on > employment in ways that I had never intended when I was in college. I have only a BS in Computer Science. I've discovered that my degree opened a few doors that would have otherwise been closed by completely clueless people. I've met programmers with weird degrees (physics, statistics, chemistry) who were the best I'd ever met. And I've met programmers with advanced degrees in computer science who couldn't find their ass. I began programming professionally when I was 19, a full six years before I graduated with my degree. (I did work, school, and kids all at once) And nothing was more irritating to me in an interview as when i was asked how many years of professional programming experience I had, then after responding, I was asked, "yeah, but how many years after you graduated." Excuse me, where's the door? Now maybe you learned something from your degree program and maybe you didn't. But in short, a BS degree in computer science allows an HR drone to check off a box before sending your resume on to the hiring manager. It's there for clueless HR people and hiring managers who don't know the first thing about software development to allow some other mechanism to help them filter out people who can't program because they're too inept to make the decision using their own knowledge and skills. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 1 18:58:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 16:58:01 -0700 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: References: , <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4E874699.29286.1E3F271@cclist.sydex.com> Would today's Microsoft hire a Bill Gates (college dropout)? Would they hire a 30 year old Bill Gates with an PhD in computer science? Would he be nearly as productive? I was chatting with a young friend this past week. The subject (nothing more fun than talking about other people) of the conversation was a young musician, who, at 19 was offered a permanent position with a major (and well-funded) US symphony orhestra. He'd been subbing with them as a summer job, as he was on vacation from school (he had a full scholarship to a major conservatory). He turned the job down, saying that he needed to finish school first (he had two more years to go). Big mistake--he flubbed every audition after school, went back to school to get a couple of advanced degrees, is in his late 20s and without any prospects. On auditions, he's doing well if he makes it into the second tier of candidates. He'll probably end up joining the Army. You see, it's still the case in the music world that performace is everything. The people sitting on the other side of the audition screen don't care if you just came from Juilliard or your uncle's chicken farm. My point is is this--that there is a period of maximum porductivity for most humans and it falls sometime near the end of adolescence, say, between 17 and 20 years of age. After that, one is never the same person. Maybe it's the uninformed arrogance of youth. I'd like to think that the mind is most pliable in those years. It's a crying shame to waste that on formal education, sitting in some undergrad lecture hall. Some teachers understand that and give the more promising students special projects where they can give free rein to their ideas. Most don't. An awful lot of universities turn out to be glorified trade schools. It's important not to let formal education get in the way of real learning. If I ruled the world, I'd opt for perhaps 2 years of formal education, then 5 years of internship where one can exercise one's creativity, then some more formal education to improve the depth of one's knowledge. While I was a terrible student, the things that I learned during the same time outside of formal study have proved to be the source of great joy later in life. And I regret not a moment of it. Stay curious, Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 1 22:05:51 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 23:05:51 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E878D1C.502@telegraphics.com.au> <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E87D50F.3040307@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/10/11 6:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Ted Nelson, in his classic Computer Lib/Dream Machines (1974): >> 'Swarthmore left me with an exaggerated notion of the extent to which >> ideas are valued in the academic world; it took two graduate schools to >> clear this up. After that, as far as I was concerned, Ph.D. stood for >> Poophead.' > > Ted is not always thoroughly in touch with academia. > A classic iconoclast, and from my readings of that book, usually under-estimated, then and now. --Toby From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 1 22:16:55 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 20:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E87D50F.3040307@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E878D1C.502@telegraphics.com.au> <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net> <4E87D50F.3040307@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111001201340.C586@shell.lmi.net> > >> Ted Nelson, > A classic iconoclast, and from my readings of that book, usually > under-estimated, then and now. Absolutely You will enjoy watching "Hyperland" which he created with Douglas Adams (and Tom Baker). A pre-WWW prediction of the future of the internet. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 2 01:55:15 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 23:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: <4E874187.6090507@bitsavers.org> References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com> <4E84A11A.3050705@jwsss.com> <4E874187.6090507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/29/11 9:47 AM, jim s wrote: > >> How to get them to you intact is another question. I don't trust shipping >> magnetics anymore. > > The best article I have ever seen on this is Geller's "Erasing Myths About > Magnetic Media" > which I've uploaded to: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/nbs/publications/Geller_Erasing_Myths_About_Magnetic_Media_Mar76.pdf Recently at a hotel, I managed to erase my magnetic key card twice. Once by carrying it against my cell phone and again by laying it on top of my notebook computer. The people at the front desk told me that it happens all the time. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 2 05:06:44 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 03:06:44 -0700 Subject: IBM Channel Cables (Dsub type) Message-ID: <4E8837B4.4030406@jwsss.com> Dsub type, not the normal bus / tag Terminators would be nice to score, but are not listed. one set on epay right now if you need them for your small mainframe. 190574185611 Jim From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 2 05:18:57 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 11:18:57 +0100 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <107C457AFBDE4EF9B6DB61598B0477DF@ANTONIOPC> Brian Lanning [brianlanning at gmail.com] wrote: > the best I'd ever met. And I've met programmers with > advanced degrees in computer science who couldn't find their ass. I'm not sure where you get the notion that a real computer science degree has anything much to do with programming. Dijsktra believed that "computer science" should have been called "computing science" (and - iirc - also said that you wouldn't expect studying astronomy to teach you how to build a telescope). That said, having seen the occasional syllabus for a few "computer science" degrees, perhaps they are correctly named after all :-) > Now maybe you learned something from your degree program and > maybe you didn't. But in short, a BS degree in computer > science allows an HR drone to check off a box before sending I think that where I work CVs do come straight to the engineers, so there's no HR filter. There's still an agency filter (except, I suppose, for those who know someone here or those who have enough nous to fire up a web browser and work out how to go direct ;-)) I know that at a previous place of employment we'd get maybe 50 CVs for a job. Evaluating 50 CVs in any meaningful sense takes a *long* time. It's much quicker to discard quickly based on some arbitrary standard factor (e.g. degree) and then scan the remaining 10 CVs more closely. Eventually you'll interview 5 and pick the one you get along with (and who looks like they probably actually did some of the things they claim to have done on their CV). As usual "the best is the enemy of the good enough". Doesn't matter if you reject the perfect job candidate as long as you get a reasonable one. Antonio From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 2 07:53:21 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 14:53:21 +0200 Subject: EP/IX Documentation Message-ID: Hi. I am searching for documentation for the CDC EP/IX Operating System and I'm detecting a deep lack of it. Some place where I could get some initiation manual, training guide or so on ? Regards Sergio From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 2 11:48:17 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 09:48:17 -0700 Subject: EP/IX Documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8895D1.2020009@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/11 5:53 AM, SPC wrote: > Hi. > > I am searching for documentation for the CDC EP/IX Operating System and I'm > detecting a deep lack of it. > The Cray/Cyber folks might have it. There is little around on 64 bit mode CY180 systems. It is pretty late and esoteric, from what I can tell. This seemed to be CDC's last gasp at staying competitive. From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 2 12:21:26 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 19:21:26 +0200 Subject: EP/IX Documentation In-Reply-To: <4E8895D1.2020009@bitsavers.org> References: <4E8895D1.2020009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Al. But, doing the wound more deep, Cray-Cyber folks don't have any book available to download, and only ONE in their library. In fact, the unique valuable information related with EP/IX manuals that I've located points to CHM, as donations. Regards Sergio 2011/10/2 Al Kossow > On 10/2/11 5:53 AM, SPC wrote: > >> Hi. >> >> I am searching for documentation for the CDC EP/IX Operating System and >> I'm >> detecting a deep lack of it. >> >> > The Cray/Cyber folks might have it. There is little around on 64 bit mode > CY180 systems. > It is pretty late and esoteric, from what I can tell. > > This seemed to be CDC's last gasp at staying competitive. > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 2 13:06:45 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 11:06:45 -0700 Subject: EP/IX Documentation In-Reply-To: References: <4E8895D1.2020009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E88A835.8030208@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/11 10:21 AM, SPC wrote: > In fact, the unique valuable information related with EP/IX manuals that > I've located points to CHM, as donations. > There are a few brochures that I see in the CHM catalog, but no manuals. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 2 12:43:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 18:43:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111001153324.M586@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 1, 11 03:36:38 pm Message-ID: > > > Ted Nelson, in his classic Computer Lib/Dream Machines (1974): > > 'Swarthmore left me with an exaggerated notion of the extent to which > > ideas are valued in the academic world; it took two graduate schools to > > clear this up. After that, as far as I was concerned, Ph.D. stood for > > Poophead.' > > Ted is not always thoroughly in touch with academia. Note that I have palindromic initials, so I am somewhat biased.... > > BS is BullShit This doesn't work in the UK, we call that degree a 'BSc'. Mind you, I have a BA (and MA) in 'Physics and theoretical physics'... I am still tring to work out why that's an 'art'... > MS is More of the Same I heard it as 'more Sh*t' > PhD is Piled Higher and Deeper Are you (and others) claiming a strong negative correlation between having academic qualifcations and being clueful? My experience suggests there's almost no correlation at all, if there is , it's slightly positive. But I really don't think that having a certain piece of paper should be used as a criterion for selecting somebody for a job. > Several of my degrees have had unexpected very powerful impact on > employment in ways that I had never intended when I was in college. I see.... I learnt a lot of things when getting my palindromic initials. Not to do with particle physics eitehr (the group I was working in). Things like how to strip down and rebuild a Canon CX printer. How to overhual a line printer. How to design with ECL. How to get high-speed op-amps not to turn into oscillators. How to fix SMPSUs. Etc... Much of which has been very useful in keeping my classics going. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 2 13:35:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 19:35:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Oct 1, 11 06:02:07 pm Message-ID: > Now maybe you learned something from your degree program and maybe you > didn't. But in short, a BS degree in computer science allows an HR > drone to check off a box before sending your resume on to the hiring > manager. It's there for clueless HR people and hiring managers who > don't know the first thing about software development to allow some > other mechanism to help them filter out people who can't program > because they're too inept to make the decision using their own > knowledge and skills. THis is exactly the problem I mentioned yesterday (and which personally affects me). I have no formal qualifications at all in electronics, computer science, engineering, etc. But I don't think I am terminally clueless in any of those areas. Sure there are plenty of people (and on this list) who know more than me, but I think I know more than some others I've met... My qualification is in particle physics. Now, half of my (300 page or so) thesis is schematics nad program listings. Presumably that should indicate I have some kind of clue. But it's not the right bit of papepr to satisfy a clueless HR person. Oh well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 2 13:40:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 19:40:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E874699.29286.1E3F271@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 1, 11 04:58:01 pm Message-ID: > It's a crying shame to waste that on formal education, sitting in > some undergrad lecture hall. Some teachers understand that and give > the more promising students special projects where they can give free > rein to their ideas. Most don't. An awful lot of universities turn > out to be glorified trade schools. I would argue that at least ina UK a Ph.D is supposed to give somewhat free rein to the student's ideas. Certainly in my case, it started with my supervisor hadning me something wrapped in tinfoil and saying 'OK, play with those'. Unwrapping it revealsed 3 T414 Transputers. I got the approrpiate data book and started designing. Of course there are members of staff around to offer guidance, comments, etc if you need it. But most of the time you are left to think for yoursel > While I was a terrible student, the things that I learned during the > same time outside of formal study have proved to be the source of > great joy later in life. And I regret not a moment of it. I agree with you there. My evenings as an undergraduate were mostly spent starting my classic computing hobby (with a few friends, some of whom have continued with it as I have). I learnt a heck of a lot.... > Stay curious, Indeed..... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 2 13:54:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 19:54:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <107C457AFBDE4EF9B6DB61598B0477DF@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Oct 2, 11 11:18:57 am Message-ID: > Dijsktra believed that "computer science" should have been called > "computing science" (and - iirc - also said that you wouldn't > expect studying astronomy to teach you how to build a telescope). Actually, I feel you should understand the tools and instruments you use, if only so you can correctly interpret what they are telling you. So yes, I would hope an astronomer knew how telescopes worked (but I'll readily believe that many do not). > As usual "the best is the enemy of the good enough". Doesn't matter if > you > reject the perfect job candidate as long as you get a reasonable one. It may not matter to you, but it matters a lot ot the 'perfect candidate' who is never interviewed for jobs he knows he could do well simply becasue he doesn't haev the right bit of paper. If you're going to use an arbitrary criterion for filtering out candidates, why makie it 'must have a degree'. Why not 'must have a parrot'? It would make as much sense in most cases. -tony From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 2 14:34:49 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 21:34:49 +0200 Subject: EP/IX Documentation In-Reply-To: <4E88A835.8030208@bitsavers.org> References: <4E8895D1.2020009@bitsavers.org> <4E88A835.8030208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Maybe this ? http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102678057 http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102680463 Regards Sergio 2011/10/2 Al Kossow > On 10/2/11 10:21 AM, SPC wrote: > > In fact, the unique valuable information related with EP/IX manuals that >> I've located points to CHM, as donations. >> >> > There are a few brochures that I see in the CHM catalog, but no manuals. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 2 15:56:05 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 13:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <107C457AFBDE4EF9B6DB61598B0477DF@ANTONIOPC> References: <107C457AFBDE4EF9B6DB61598B0477DF@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <20111002134520.C28647@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 2 Oct 2011 arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Dijsktra believed that "computer science" should have been called > "computing science" (and - iirc - also said that you wouldn't > expect studying astronomy to teach you how to build a telescope). Yet, an astronomer would have to be an idiot not to learn the principles behind his tools. Wouldn't building your own [admittedly crude] one be a good way to learn? And then give that [professionally inadequate] one to a schoolkid. > That said, having seen the occasional syllabus for a few "computer > science" degrees, perhaps they are correctly named after all :-) Is "computer science" an engineering discipline for designing computers? Or is it an information science discipline for developing algorithms for prociessing information? > > Now maybe you learned something from your degree program and > > maybe you didn't. But in short, a BS degree in computer > > science allows an HR drone to check off a box before sending Very true. When the college system developed their "minimum quals" for "faculty service areas", they insisted that they were grandfathering all existing credentials (which were "lifetime"!). Nobody told HR. > I think that where I work CVs do come straight to the engineers, so > there's no HR filter. Are y'all hiring? > I know that at a previous place of employment we'd get maybe 50 CVs > for a job. Evaluating 50 CVs in any meaningful sense takes a *long* > time. It's much quicker to discard quickly based on some arbitrary > standard factor (e.g. degree) and then scan the remaining 10 CVs more > closely. It is inevitable that there will always be some meaningless or irrelevant selection criteria imposed in the mix. > As usual "the best is the enemy of the good enough". Doesn't matter if > you reject the perfect job candidate as long as you get a reasonable > one. While probably wuite true, it is HARD to accept that! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 2 16:28:32 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 23:28:32 +0200 Subject: EP/IX Documentation In-Reply-To: <4E88A835.8030208@bitsavers.org> References: <4E8895D1.2020009@bitsavers.org> <4E88A835.8030208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Another brief but interesting webpage about EP/IX and CDC 4380: http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/en/cdc4380.html Sergio 2011/10/2 Al Kossow > On 10/2/11 10:21 AM, SPC wrote: > > In fact, the unique valuable information related with EP/IX manuals that >> I've located points to CHM, as donations. >> >> > There are a few brochures that I see in the CHM catalog, but no manuals. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 2 17:05:24 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 15:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111002145814.X28647@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > PhD is Piled Higher and Deeper > Are you (and others) claiming a strong negative correlation between > having academic qualifcations and being clueful? No, just my own personal experiences of too much time in academia. > My experience suggests there's almost no correlation at all, if there is > , it's slightly positive. It asserts tenacity. > > Several of my degrees have had unexpected very powerful impact on > > employment in ways that I had never intended when I was in college. > I see.... They have let me get past the HR screening, in order to be considered, for things in which my expertise did NOT come from the college experience. > I learnt a lot of things when getting my palindromic initials. Not to do > with particle physics eitehr (the group I was working in). Things like > how to strip down and rebuild a Canon CX printer. How to overhual a line > printer. How to design with ECL. How to get high-speed op-amps not to > turn into oscillators. How to fix SMPSUs. Etc... mostly irrelevant, or even orthogonal to what they were trying to teach you Going to college will not prevent you from learning, and sometimes provides unconnected opportunities. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 18:22:00 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 16:22:00 -0700 Subject: Tek 4170 load available near Seattle In-Reply-To: <4E819DD1.16099.333D7E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E819DD1.16099.333D7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A fellow's posting over at Erik's VC Forum that he's got a good load > of Tek 4170 stuff looking for a home: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?27400- > Tektronix-4170-CAD-systems-for-sale-trade > I picked up this lot of stuff. (4x) Tektronix 4170 CPUs. They might all have hard drives. (2x) Tektronix 4207 color graphic terminals with spare keyboards. (2x) Tektronix 4662 8-pen flatbed plotters A box full of spare system boards of unknown condition. Spare hard drives of unknown condition. Boxes of manuals. Hundreds of 5.25 inch floppies I haven't powered anything up except the terminals. Both seem ok. Richard has one of these. Anyone else? http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/tektronix-4170-local-graphics-processor/ Has any of the manuals or software for these been archived anywhere? I'll have to inventory the manuals and floppies I have when I have the time. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 1 19:57:45 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 01:57:45 +0100 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 02/10/2011 00:02, "Brian Lanning" wrote: > manager. It's there for clueless HR people and hiring managers who > don't know the first thing about software development to allow some > other mechanism to help them filter out people who can't program > because they're too inept to make the decision using their own > knowledge and skills. This was kind of my point. Nice to know it's almost worse over there than it is here! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 2 12:28:09 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 10:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: at&t 3b1 pc 7300 documentation In-Reply-To: <4E877DAB.6020208@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1317576489.51547.YahooMailClassic@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> if you have any 3rd party docs (as was mentioned in recent posts, applications, compilers, etc.) I could be interested. If it's the base AT & T docs, I likely have all of them. I found the basic setup manual for the 6310 if anyone is interested. I hadn't thought to offer it, just scan the pages and chuck the binder (and the pages eventually), but if anyone wants those, I'll send them out. Reply offlist with specifics in subject line please. --- On Sat, 10/1/11, emanuel stiebler wrote: > From: emanuel stiebler > Subject: at&t 3b1 pc 7300 documentation > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, October 1, 2011, 4:52 PM > Hi all, > anybody likes to have any of those? Have some of the > original red books, but probably won't use any of them > anytime soon. > Pay shipping etc, ... > > Cheers > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 2 12:36:06 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 10:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It works :oD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1317576966.9369.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> ok. Don't know what it is, no speak espanole, and w/o looking it up, I'm guessing an ux box with HP-IB ports to control what's below it. The box w/the color screen resembles the early HP scopes I used as an EMI tech 800 years ago. Looks like it might be an analyzer though. Ok, I went the extra mile and reverse searched the page. Question is why is google so terrible at translation??? I'd far rather have a search engine reliably translate a page then do those abhorrent instant searches while I'm still typing! --- On Sat, 10/1/11, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > From: Alexandre Souza - Listas > Subject: It works :oD > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, October 1, 2011, 6:42 PM > > ???http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com/2011/10/hp16500c-hp16505a-e-oitocentesimo-post.html > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 20:49:32 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 20:49:32 -0500 Subject: The Commodore 65 Message-ID: Ok...anyone know who dropped the big 20 kilobux on this one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/120784313119?s Not saying it's not worth it (I've certainly never seen a working one, ever,) but the price is still a shock. Big $ for an Apple 1 I can see...there are collectors of "cultural icons" like the original Apple product outside of our hobby. I can't see the same being so for a Commodore relic. -- jht From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 20:57:07 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 18:57:07 -0700 Subject: It works :oD In-Reply-To: <1317576966.9369.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1317576966.9369.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2011 4:54 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > > ok. Don't know what it is, no speak espanole, and w/o looking it up, I'm guessing an ux box with HP-IB ports to control what's below it. The box w/the color screen resembles the early HP scopes I used as an EMI tech 800 years ago. Looks like it might be an analyzer though. > It's an HP 712/80 workstation converted into an HP 16505A "Prototype Analyzer" by swapping in the 16505A disk image. It controls the HP 16500C Logic Analyzer via the SCSI port. The 16505A runs HP-UX 9.05 with a special application to control the 16500C. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 2 21:03:33 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 22:03:33 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:49 PM Subject: The Commodore 65 > Ok...anyone know who dropped the big 20 kilobux on this one? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/120784313119?s > > Not saying it's not worth it (I've certainly never seen a working one, > ever,) but the price is still a shock. Big $ for an Apple 1 I can > see...there are collectors of "cultural icons" like the original Apple > product outside of our hobby. I can't see the same being so for a > Commodore relic. > > -- > jht Won by a 0 feedback buyer, good luck getting $20K from them. I never seen an Apple I being that big of a deal other then to people who collect Apple, the C65 is the same for Commodore collectors. There will always be collectors shelling out serious cash for the unusable rarities while other collectors pay trivial amounts for the common machines that actually have some software and hardware available. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 2 21:09:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 22:09:40 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E891964.90901@neurotica.com> On 10/02/2011 10:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Won by a 0 feedback buyer, good luck getting $20K from them. ...because everyone knows people with large amounts of money automatically start out with high feedback ratings when they establish an eBay account. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 21:16:11 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 23:16:11 -0300 Subject: It works :oD References: <1317576966.9369.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54701C1698294291A61F9A2078AA3BB3@portajara> > ok. Don't know what it is, no speak espanole, and w/o looking it up, I'm > guessing an ux box with HP-IB ports to control what's below it. The box > w/the color screen resembles the early HP scopes I used as an EMI tech 800 > years ago. Looks like it might be an analyzer though. > Ok, I went the extra mile and reverse searched the page. Question is why > is google so terrible at translation??? I'd far rather have a search > engine reliably translate a page then do those abhorrent instant searches > while I'm still typing! Lets try again - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH How many times will I have to speak? ;oD From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 2 21:34:58 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 22:34:58 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 References: <4E891964.90901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <66FD4D7247964BABBF7D0C59D06B4C4E@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 10:09 PM Subject: Re: The Commodore 65 > On 10/02/2011 10:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> Won by a 0 feedback buyer, good luck getting $20K from them. > > ...because everyone knows people with large amounts of money > automatically start out with high feedback ratings when they establish an > eBay account. > > -Dave While a serious CBM collector might have just made an account in the last 30 days just for that C65 auction (there have been a few auctioned off over the years on EBAY), more then likely it is just the seller driving up the price with a throw away account (2nd chance offer to next highest bidder). From brain at jbrain.com Sun Oct 2 21:34:59 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 21:34:59 -0500 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E891F53.2060109@jbrain.com> On 10/2/2011 8:49 PM, Jason T wrote: > Ok...anyone know who dropped the big 20 kilobux on this one? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/120784313119?s > > Not saying it's not worth it (I've certainly never seen a working one, > ever,) but the price is still a shock. Big $ for an Apple 1 I can > see...there are collectors of "cultural icons" like the original Apple > product outside of our hobby. I can't see the same being so for a > Commodore relic. > I was surprised at the total, and I did notice the winner was a 0-feedbacker, though if you look at the next highest bid, it was 20K from a bidder with plenty of feedback. Next year, remind me about this before VCFMW. I have 2 working units, plus the exceedingly rare RAM expansion card (I'm not sure there are any others in existence), as well as an earlier version of the RAM card that is not complete, and a special burnin cartridge for the unit (not complete, don't know what it does). I can bring it to the show and demo it. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 2 21:42:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 22:42:52 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <66FD4D7247964BABBF7D0C59D06B4C4E@dell8300> References: <4E891964.90901@neurotica.com> <66FD4D7247964BABBF7D0C59D06B4C4E@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E89212C.8010500@neurotica.com> On 10/02/2011 10:34 PM, TeoZ wrote: >>> Won by a 0 feedback buyer, good luck getting $20K from them. >> >> ...because everyone knows people with large amounts of money >> automatically start out with high feedback ratings when they establish >> an eBay account. > > While a serious CBM collector might have just made an account in the > last 30 days just for that C65 auction (there have been a few auctioned > off over the years on EBAY), more then likely it is just the seller > driving up the price with a throw away account (2nd chance offer to next > highest bidder). Looking at the bid history, it's certainly possible, though it's pretty tough to get away with that unless you do it from a friend's home or office on a different computer. eBay tracks the IP addresses that bids come from, as well as cookies from the browser, to identify shills. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 2 21:49:29 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 19:49:29 -0700 Subject: It works :oD In-Reply-To: <54701C1698294291A61F9A2078AA3BB3@portajara> References: <1317576966.9369.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <54701C1698294291A61F9A2078AA3BB3@portajara> Message-ID: <4E88C049.11682.23FFDEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2011 at 23:16, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH And Argentinians speak German... --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 21:52:57 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 21:52:57 -0500 Subject: It works :oD In-Reply-To: <54701C1698294291A61F9A2078AA3BB3@portajara> References: <1317576966.9369.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <54701C1698294291A61F9A2078AA3BB3@portajara> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > ? Lets try again > ? - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH > ... > ? How many times will I have to speak? ;oD > And they've learned not to top-post there, too. Cr?dito! From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 2 21:55:57 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 22:55:57 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E89212C.8010500@neurotica.com> References: <4E891964.90901@neurotica.com> <66FD4D7247964BABBF7D0C59D06B4C4E@dell8300> <4E89212C.8010500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E89243D.9070805@snarc.net> >>> it's certainly possible, though it's pretty tough to get away with that unless you do it from a friend's home or office on a different computer. It's easier than ever, especially with all the mobile devices, for people to have two or more IP addresses readily available. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 2 22:07:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 23:07:24 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E89243D.9070805@snarc.net> References: <4E891964.90901@neurotica.com> <66FD4D7247964BABBF7D0C59D06B4C4E@dell8300> <4E89212C.8010500@neurotica.com> <4E89243D.9070805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E8926EC.505@neurotica.com> On 10/02/2011 10:55 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> it's certainly possible, though it's pretty tough to get away with > that unless you do it from a friend's home or office on a different > computer. > > It's easier than ever, especially with all the mobile devices, for > people to have two or more IP addresses readily available. This is a very good point, I hadn't considered the mobile device angle, thanks for pointing that out. My original assertion stands, though, that it's pure bunk that you're automatically going to get screwed simply because the person is new to eBay. Everybody starts somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 2 22:12:50 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 20:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It works :oD In-Reply-To: <4E88C049.11682.23FFDEB@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Oct 2, 11 07:49:29 pm" Message-ID: <201110030312.p933CoaR025056@floodgap.com> > > - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH > > And Argentinians speak German... Only the white ones who goosestep. #odessa -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If everyone is abnormal, then no one is. ----------------------------------- From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 2 22:22:02 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 23:22:02 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/10/11 10:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:49 PM > Subject: The Commodore 65 > > >> Ok...anyone know who dropped the big 20 kilobux on this one? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/120784313119?s >> >> Not saying it's not worth it (I've certainly never seen a working one, >> ever,) but the price is still a shock. Big $ for an Apple 1 I can >> see...there are collectors of "cultural icons" like the original Apple >> product outside of our hobby. I can't see the same being so for a >> Commodore relic. >> >> -- >> jht > > Won by a 0 feedback buyer, good luck getting $20K from them. Zero feedback doesn't say anything about the trustworthiness of the buyer other than it was worth registering to buy the item. Disparaging a zero feedback user is like disparaging a newborn baby for crimes they haven't committed yet. --T > > I never seen an Apple I being that big of a deal other then to people > who collect Apple, the C65 is the same for Commodore collectors. There > will always be collectors shelling out serious cash for the unusable > rarities while other collectors pay trivial amounts for the common > machines that actually have some software and hardware available. > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 2 22:28:28 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 23:28:28 -0400 Subject: It works :oD In-Reply-To: <201110030312.p933CoaR025056@floodgap.com> References: <201110030312.p933CoaR025056@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E892BDC.7060707@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/10/11 11:12 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> - Brazilians speak PORTUGUESE and NOT SPANISH >> >> And Argentinians speak German... > > Only the white ones who goosestep. #odessa > Goose-stepping was the rule, there, for a while. As it was in Brazil amid unfortunate circumstances that are important history but off topic :) --Toby From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 3 00:05:50 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 23:05:50 -0600 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <4E777C67.5060909@bitsavers.org> References: <4E777C67.5060909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4E777C67.5060909 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > These 8" disks are for the stand-alone terminal (CDC 110), aren't they? Yes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 3 00:11:05 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 22:11:05 -0700 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> I'd take a 237 auction buyer $ 11000. 0 feedback bidders don't usually have a good track record. You pay what, under 10 cents to verify your credit card? All the other bidders with a track record are elbowed aside in favor of the 0 rated buyer who had never bid on an auction and in many cased I've been in with them not only have never bid, but also don't understand Ebay's bidding rules. With nothing in the game, there is little risk to the guy who bid 0 to try to negotiate a deal once all the other bidders have dispersed. At least this one was not a $1100 dollar auction with this sort of bid, and maybe the $11,000 bid is real if this guy tries something. You can watch the feedback to see if he gets any for this auction. otherwise won't know. jim On 10/2/2011 8:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/10/11 10:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:49 PM >> Subject: The Commodore 65 >> >> >>> Ok...anyone know who dropped the big 20 kilobux on this one? >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/120784313119?s >>> >>> Not saying it's not worth it (I've certainly never seen a working one, >>> ever,) but the price is still a shock. Big $ for an Apple 1 I can >>> see...there are collectors of "cultural icons" like the original Apple >>> product outside of our hobby. I can't see the same being so for a >>> Commodore relic. >>> >>> -- >>> jht >> >> Won by a 0 feedback buyer, good luck getting $20K from them. > > Zero feedback doesn't say anything about the trustworthiness of the > buyer other than it was worth registering to buy the item. Disparaging > a zero feedback user is like disparaging a newborn baby for crimes > they haven't committed yet. > > --T > >> >> I never seen an Apple I being that big of a deal other then to people >> who collect Apple, the C65 is the same for Commodore collectors. There >> will always be collectors shelling out serious cash for the unusable >> rarities while other collectors pay trivial amounts for the common >> machines that actually have some software and hardware available. >> >> > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 3 00:22:47 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 22:22:47 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E84A11A.3050705@jwsss.com> <4E874187.6090507@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: Hi While I've intentionally use a strong magnet to destroy the files on a 360K disk when I wanted to record fat on one side only, to defeat MS insistance on not letting me do what I want, I've only had one problem with normal stray magnetic fields. I have found that floppies are sensitive to the stray fields of things like monitor deflection coils while they are being recoded. I've never seen similar fields cause any problem while reading. Even moving the monitor as little as another 6 inches was enough to stop the problem. Dwight > From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 9/29/11 9:47 AM, jim s wrote: > > > >> How to get them to you intact is another question. I don't trust shipping > >> magnetics anymore. > > > > The best article I have ever seen on this is Geller's "Erasing Myths About > > Magnetic Media" > > which I've uploaded to: > > > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/nbs/publications/Geller_Erasing_Myths_About_Magnetic_Media_Mar76.pdf > > Recently at a hotel, I managed to erase my magnetic key card twice. Once > by carrying it against my cell phone and again by laying it on top of my > notebook computer. The people at the front desk told me that it happens > all the time. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Oct 3 07:25:13 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:25:13 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E89A9A9.2050507@verizon.net> On 10/2/2011 11:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Zero feedback doesn't say anything about the trustworthiness of the > buyer other than it was worth registering to buy the item. Disparaging a > zero feedback user is like disparaging a newborn baby for crimes they > haven't committed yet. > > --T I can't help but think of original sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church here. Your analogy might not hold exactly. :) Keith From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 3 07:29:47 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:29:47 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/10/11 1:11 AM, jim s wrote: > I'd take a 237 auction buyer $ 11000. 0 feedback bidders don't usually > have a good track record. To be specific, they don't have ANY track record. What's the result of dividing by zero? --Toby > You pay what, under 10 cents to verify your > credit card? All the other bidders with a track record are elbowed aside > in favor of the 0 rated buyer who had never bid on an auction and in > many cased I've been in with them not only have never bid, but also > don't understand Ebay's bidding rules. > > With nothing in the game, there is little risk to the guy who bid 0 to > try to negotiate a deal once all the other bidders have dispersed. > > At least this one was not a $1100 dollar auction with this sort of bid, > and maybe the $11,000 bid is real if this guy tries something. You can > watch the feedback to see if he gets any for this auction. otherwise > won't know. > > jim > > On 10/2/2011 8:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 02/10/11 10:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:49 PM >>> Subject: The Commodore 65 >>> >>> >>>> Ok...anyone know who dropped the big 20 kilobux on this one? >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/120784313119?s >>>> >>>> Not saying it's not worth it (I've certainly never seen a working one, >>>> ever,) but the price is still a shock. Big $ for an Apple 1 I can >>>> see...there are collectors of "cultural icons" like the original Apple >>>> product outside of our hobby. I can't see the same being so for a >>>> Commodore relic. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> jht >>> >>> Won by a 0 feedback buyer, good luck getting $20K from them. >> >> Zero feedback doesn't say anything about the trustworthiness of the >> buyer other than it was worth registering to buy the item. Disparaging >> a zero feedback user is like disparaging a newborn baby for crimes >> they haven't committed yet. >> >> --T >> >>> >>> I never seen an Apple I being that big of a deal other then to people >>> who collect Apple, the C65 is the same for Commodore collectors. There >>> will always be collectors shelling out serious cash for the unusable >>> rarities while other collectors pay trivial amounts for the common >>> machines that actually have some software and hardware available. >>> >>> >> >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 3 10:17:21 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 16:17:21 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain > Sent: 03 October 2011 13:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The Commodore 65 > > On 03/10/11 1:11 AM, jim s wrote: > > I'd take a 237 auction buyer $ 11000. 0 feedback bidders don't usually > > have a good track record. > > To be specific, they don't have ANY track record. > > What's the result of dividing by zero? > > --Toby > > > You pay what, under 10 cents to verify your > > credit card? All the other bidders with a track record are elbowed > > aside in favor of the 0 rated buyer who had never bid on an auction > > and in many cased I've been in with them not only have never bid, but > > also don't understand Ebay's bidding rules. > > > > With nothing in the game, there is little risk to the guy who bid 0 to > > try to negotiate a deal once all the other bidders have dispersed. > > > > At least this one was not a $1100 dollar auction with this sort of > > bid, and maybe the $11,000 bid is real if this guy tries something. > > You can watch the feedback to see if he gets any for this auction. > > otherwise won't know. > > > > jim > > > > On 10/2/2011 8:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 02/10/11 10:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" > >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> > >>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:49 PM > >>> Subject: The Commodore 65 > >>> > >>> > >>>> Ok...anyone know who dropped the big 20 kilobux on this one? > >>>> > >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/120784313119?s > >>>> > >>>> Not saying it's not worth it (I've certainly never seen a working > >>>> one, > >>>> ever,) but the price is still a shock. Big $ for an Apple 1 I can > >>>> see...there are collectors of "cultural icons" like the original > >>>> Apple product outside of our hobby. I can't see the same being so > >>>> for a Commodore relic. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> jht > >>> > >>> Won by a 0 feedback buyer, good luck getting $20K from them. > >> > >> Zero feedback doesn't say anything about the trustworthiness of the > >> buyer other than it was worth registering to buy the item. > >> Disparaging a zero feedback user is like disparaging a newborn baby > >> for crimes they haven't committed yet. > >> > >> --T > >> > >>> > >>> I never seen an Apple I being that big of a deal other then to > >>> people who collect Apple, the C65 is the same for Commodore > >>> collectors. There will always be collectors shelling out serious > >>> cash for the unusable rarities while other collectors pay trivial > >>> amounts for the common machines that actually have some software > and hardware available. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > Not that I am good at spotting these things, but isn't that a possible instance of shilling to find out what the highest bid was from a legitimate buyer? Regards Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 3 10:25:41 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:25:41 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E84A11A.3050705@jwsss.com> <4E874187.6090507@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4E89D3F5.8020406@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/11 10:22 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I have found that floppies are sensitive to the stray fields > of things like monitor deflection coils while they are being recoded. > How far away was the monitor? I could believe the monitor was interfering with the read preamp. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 10:26:26 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 16:26:26 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report to ebay :) Dave Caroline From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 3 10:39:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 11:39:16 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> On 10/03/2011 11:26 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report to ebay :) Huh? Why? It's a pretty common practice when the seller has more than one unit to sell. I've done it myself. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 3 11:20:58 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 10:20:58 -0600 Subject: Tek 4170 load available near Seattle In-Reply-To: References: <4E819DD1.16099.333D7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > A fellow's posting over at Erik's VC Forum that he's got a good load > > of Tek 4170 stuff looking for a home: > > > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?27400- > > Tektronix-4170-CAD-systems-for-sale-trade > > > > I picked up this lot of stuff. Dang, beat me to it. I've been so busy moving the computer graphics museum collection to a new space that I haven't had time to monitor this list or do much else besides clean/pressure wash, paint and move stuff every night for the past several weeks. Was it really "a cargo van full" of stuff? > (4x) Tektronix 4170 CPUs. They might all have hard drives. > (2x) Tektronix 4207 color graphic terminals with spare keyboards. > (2x) Tektronix 4662 8-pen flatbed plotters > A box full of spare system boards of unknown condition. > Spare hard drives of unknown condition. > Boxes of manuals. > Hundreds of 5.25 inch floppies > > I haven't powered anything up except the terminals. Both seem ok. > > Richard has one of these. Anyone else? Paxton Hoag posted that he has some CPU boards. I've been talking with him about getting them as I have two 4170 units, but one is missing the CPU board. > Has any of the manuals or software for these been archived anywhere? I have some 4170 manuals that I've scanned but not yet PDF-ized. I have no software other than what's on the hard drive(s) of the units that I have. > I'll have to inventory the manuals and floppies I have when I have the > time. I'd love to see a picture of the haul! I have a hard time believing it would *fill* a panel truck. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 11:40:16 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:40:16 +0100 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com> <4E84A11A.3050705@jwsss.com> <4E874187.6090507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The other really strong field from a monitor is the degauss coil around the tube at switch on and was probably the guilty source Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 11:43:20 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:43:20 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/03/2011 11:26 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: >> >> Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report to >> ebay :) > > ?Huh? ?Why? ?It's a pretty common practice when the seller has more than one > unit to sell. ?I've done it myself. > > ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of me. I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. Dave Caroline From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 11:58:04 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 09:58:04 -0700 Subject: Tek 4170 load available near Seattle In-Reply-To: References: <4E819DD1.16099.333D7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2011 9:25 AM, "Richard" wrote: > > Was it really "a cargo van full" of stuff? Filled my van with boxes stacked at least 2 high. Would have been a couple pallets worth at least to ship freight. > Paxton Hoag posted that he has some CPU boards. I've been talking > with him about getting them as I have two 4170 units, but one is > missing the CPU board. > 2 of the 4 systems have CPU cards in them and look complete. The box of spares has at least a half dozen CPU cards. Some look better than others. Most are missing EPROMs, which is easily fixed. I'll have to check them out. One nice thing is that an extender card was included which should help with debugging. I hope to have some good CPU spares left over after getting all 4 systems running. > I have no software other than what's on the hard drive(s) of the units > that I have. > I'm curious to see what is on the drives and all the floppies I have. > I'd love to see a picture of the haul! I have a hard time believing > it would *fill* a panel truck. > -- Ok maybe half full as it wasn't stacked that high. I'll take some pictures before I unload it. -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 3 12:17:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 10:17:03 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: <4E89D3F5.8020406@bitsavers.org> References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4E89D3F5.8020406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E898B9F.28060.326B88@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2011 at 8:25, Al Kossow wrote: > How far away was the monitor? > > I could believe the monitor was interfering with the read preamp. That was very common on old designs; put a monitor on top of a box containing disk drives and the read signal gets all screwed up. Some steel shielding around the drives usually clears that problem up (easier to do it to the drives than the monitor). AC operated fans, printer stepper motors, etc. can have a similar effect if close enough. And vice-versa--an impact printer placed close to a monitor can cause the image to wobble quite a bit. And then there's the Coleco Adam... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 3 12:49:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 10:49:31 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <4E89933B.24052.502277@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2011 at 17:40, Dave Caroline wrote: > The other really strong field from a monitor is the degauss coil > around the tube at switch on and was probably the guilty source I own a fairly strong degausser that I use on diskettes. For it to be effective, the disk must almost be in contact with the surface of the degausser. With only an inch of separation, almost nothing happens. The material used in floppy disk emulsions has a pretty "square" magnetization curve. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 3 13:12:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 14:12:25 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> On 10/3/11 12:43 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >>> Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report to >>> ebay :) >> >> Huh? Why? It's a pretty common practice when the seller has more than one >> unit to sell. I've done it myself. > > By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one > off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of > me. > > I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. How is having more than one of something to sell "playing games" or "dishonest"? I am very confused here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 3 13:28:23 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 11:28:23 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: <4E89933B.24052.502277@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4E89933B.24052.502277@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E89FEC7.9030602@bitsavers.org> On 10/3/11 10:49 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I own a fairly strong degausser that I use on diskettes. For it to > be effective, the disk must almost be in contact with the surface of > the degausser. With only an inch of separation, almost nothing > happens. The material used in floppy disk emulsions has a pretty > "square" magnetization curve. > That is exactly the conclusion in the paper I uploaded. If you look at the graphs, it is very difficult to accidentally erase digital magnetic media. That has been my experience as well. I have had much more trouble with physical media failure than the magnetization going away. From ss at allegro.com Mon Oct 3 13:50:42 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 11:50:42 -0700 Subject: HP-UX 10.20 manuals In-Reply-To: <4E850C19.7010705@brouhaha.com> References: <4E850C19.7010705@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <19EE4972-06D2-4DA5-A98D-BD709871D852@allegro.com> Hi Eric, Did you ever find the manuals? If not, let me know and I'll look around here. Stan On Sep 29, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Are the HP-UX 10.20 manuals available online in PDF format somewhere? I can find a lot of 11.x manuals on the HP site, but nothing for 10.20. > > Failing that, was there a documentation CD or the like? > > Thanks! > Eric > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 13:51:14 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:51:14 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/3/11 12:43 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >>>> >>>> Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report to >>>> ebay :) >>> >>> ?Huh? ?Why? ?It's a pretty common practice when the seller has more than >>> one >>> unit to sell. ?I've done it myself. >> >> By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one >> off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of >> me. >> >> I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. > > ?How is having more than one of something to sell "playing games" or > "dishonest"? ?I am very confused here. > > ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Because the item you get is NOT in the picture nor described Dave Caroline From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 14:12:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:12:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111002134520.C28647@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 2, 11 01:56:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 2 Oct 2011 arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > Dijsktra believed that "computer science" should have been called > > "computing science" (and - iirc - also said that you wouldn't > > expect studying astronomy to teach you how to build a telescope). > > Yet, an astronomer would have to be an idiot not to learn the principles > behind his tools. Wouldn't building your own [admittedly crude] one be a > good way to learn? And then give that [professionally inadequate] one to > a schoolkid. I have a lovely set of 3 books called 'Amateur Telescope Making'. Although telescope design has moved on since these were written, there's a lot of interesting stuff in them. It's interesting, too, that the authors of various sections are people like the Director of the Harvard Observatory. Back then it appears that astronomers did understand the instruemtns they were using. But then these days it's seems to be common to treat eveything as a black box and not understnad it. The usefulness of results obtained in this way is questionable to say the least... > > > That said, having seen the occasional syllabus for a few "computer > > science" degrees, perhaps they are correctly named after all :-) > > Is "computer science" an engineering discipline for designing computers? > Or is it an information science discipline for developing algorithms for > prociessing information? I would _hope_ it convered both. In reality it probably covers neither. And as I've seaid before, it never fails to amaze me how many programmers can't read a schematic diagram, can't do even triival soldering tasks, and so on. I've yet to meet a serious hardware person who can't program (in both high level and assembly languages). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 14:16:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:16:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111002145814.X28647@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 2, 11 03:05:24 pm Message-ID: > > I learnt a lot of things when getting my palindromic initials. Not to do > > with particle physics eitehr (the group I was working in). Things like > > how to strip down and rebuild a Canon CX printer. How to overhual a line > > printer. How to design with ECL. How to get high-speed op-amps not to > > turn into oscillators. How to fix SMPSUs. Etc... > > mostly irrelevant, or even orthogonal to what they were trying to teach > you A Ph.D., at least over here, is not really 'taught'. It's self-taught. You are expected to fidn out hwat you need, solve problems, and so on. That's the point of it. So when I needed to print out a report and some idiot had fed normal acetate sheets through the only laser printer (a CX), you can bet I learnt how to strip it down and fix it. And I am sur this knowledge (along with the other things I mentioned) has been a lot more use to me than, say, understnading the weak interaction (which I don't understand...). Problem is, people see I've got this bit of paper that says 'particle physics' and assume I will understand the weak interaction (which they don't need anybody to understand either) anf don;'t assume I can understnad SMPSUs, electronic design, etc. Oh well... > > Going to college will not prevent you from learning, and sometimes > provides unconnected opportunities. Over here it's schools that seem to do their utmost to prevent learning. Fortunately they were not successful with me... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 14:35:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:35:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 2, 11 10:22:47 pm Message-ID: > I have found that floppies are sensitive to the stray fields > of things like monitor deflection coils while they are being recoded. > I've never seen similar fields cause any problem while reading. > Even moving the monitor as little as another 6 inches was enough > to stop the problem. I am supriset it affected writing and not reading. Had it been the other way round, I would have suspected interfecent pickup in the read amplifier (seen that often enough), this does not damage the disk though. I assume your disks written when the drive was too close to the monitor were not readable elsewhere, the data on the disk was genuinely corrupted. But I don;t see why a disk would be more susceptable to external mangetic fields when writing than at any other time. It also may not have been the defleciton coils. There are plenty of other magnetic devices in CRT nonitors -- PSU transformer, flyback transformer, degausisng coil (if a colour CRT), etc. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 3 17:06:40 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 16:06:40 -0600 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> References: <4E7C625B.13648.D64F57@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7CD899.27453.2A4311A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: In article <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed at mail.mxes.net>, "g_kurico.com" writes: > Ah yes, I remember seeing NT running on an Alpha box for the first time > out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). My first impression > was "cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see > the Windows interface running on an Alpha box". Yes because Motif was *such* an innovator there, so sad to see it replaced by the thing it immitated. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 3 17:17:48 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 16:17:48 -0600 Subject: ETH Lilith's on Ebay sold... In-Reply-To: <4E7B78EB.8090100@bluewin.ch> References: <4E7B78EB.8090100@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <4E7B78EB.8090100 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen writes: > Whoever got that set of Lilith;s that where on ebay.de, if you are on > this list that is, please ensure that you write-protect the disks. More importantly, IMAGE THE DISKS BEFORE YOU POWER UP THE MACHINE. Then who cares if you accidentally write over them :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 3 17:47:18 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:47:18 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: References: <4E7CD899.27453.2A4311A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware running on an AS/400 at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's... then seeing Multiprocessor Netware running and seeing 2 snakes moving around the screen :-) Richard wrote: > In article <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed at mail.mxes.net>, > "g_kurico.com" writes: > > >> Ah yes, I remember seeing NT running on an Alpha box for the first time >> out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). My first impression >> was "cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see >> the Windows interface running on an Alpha box". >> > > Yes because Motif was *such* an innovator there, so sad to see it > replaced by the thing it immitated. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 3 17:48:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:48:27 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: References: <4E7CD899.27453.2A4311A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> Message-ID: <4E8A3BBB.8000503@neurotica.com> On 10/03/2011 06:06 PM, Richard wrote: >> Ah yes, I remember seeing NT running on an Alpha box for the first time >> out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). My first impression >> was "cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see >> the Windows interface running on an Alpha box". > > Yes because Motif was *such* an innovator there, so sad to see it > replaced by the thing it immitated. It was intended from day one to give the same look and feel as Presentation Manager. It's not like they "stole" it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 17:56:07 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 09:56:07 +1100 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> References: <4E7CD899.27453.2A4311A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware running on an AS/400 at PC > Expo in NYC back in the 90's ... then seeing Multiprocessor Netware running > and seeing 2 snakes moving around the screen :-) > > > > Richard wrote: >> >> In article <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed at mail.mxes.net>, >> ? ?"g_kurico.com" writes: >> >> >>> >>> ?Ah yes, I remember seeing NT running on an Alpha box for the first time >>> ?out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). ?My first impression ?was >>> "cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see ?the >>> Windows interface running on an Alpha box". >>> >> >> Yes because Motif was *such* an innovator there, so sad to see it >> replaced by the thing it immitated. >> > From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 18:01:56 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:01:56 +1100 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> References: <4E7CD899.27453.2A4311A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware running on an AS/400 > at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's I expect this was using the IPCS (Integrated PC Server), a plug-in card which contained various x86 CPUs running Netware/Windows NT/OS/2 etc. OS/400 did have routing support for IPX and some other Netware services, but did not host Netware directly. Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software? excuse the previous reply, a mis-click on my part. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 3 18:19:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 19:19:30 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8A4302.3010109@neurotica.com> On 10/03/2011 02:51 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >>>>> Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report to >>>>> ebay :) >>>> >>>> Huh? Why? It's a pretty common practice when the seller has more than >>>> one >>>> unit to sell. I've done it myself. >>> >>> By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one >>> off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of >>> me. >>> >>> I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. >> >> How is having more than one of something to sell "playing games" or >> "dishonest"? I am very confused here. > > Because the item you get is NOT in the picture nor described And this is really an issue for IDENTICAL items? Say, even in their packaging? (that's when I do it) There's holding sellers to a high standard, and then there's being anal for the sake of being anal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 18:21:46 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:21:46 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Because the item you get is NOT in the picture nor described I deal quite a lot in surplus -specifically antique and collectable electronics - and often have duplicates of items. Identical, often new, never out of the wrappings. And yes, sometimes high ticket stuff. For much of it, I *dare* you to find differences in the identical items. Sometimes hundreds of items that were probably made within minutes of each other, years ago. New pictures of every item is wasteful. You are being a real jerk - the kind of buyers ebay does *not* need. The kind that does not bother to look at seller feedback, because you think all sellers are the same - dishonest lying snakes. Tell you what - send me your ebay name off list, and I will instantly add it to my blocked bidder list. You know, because all buyers are the same, right? -- Will aka toober From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 3 18:28:37 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 16:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: <4E89FEC7.9030602@bitsavers.org> References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4E89933B.24052.502277@cclist.sydex.com> <4E89FEC7.9030602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20111003162632.P76982@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > That is exactly the conclusion in the paper I uploaded. > If you look at the graphs, it is very difficult to accidentally erase > digital magnetic media. Maybe I'm cynical, but it seems to me that it is hard to DELIBERATELY erase digital magnetic media, but easy to do it accidentally. > That has been my experience as well. I have had > much more trouble with physical media failure than the magnetization > going away. TRUE. Look for small creases in the surface, etc. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 3 18:41:56 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 16:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: References: <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: >> The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware running on an AS/400 >> at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's > > I expect this was using the IPCS (Integrated PC Server), a plug-in > card which contained various x86 CPUs running Netware/Windows NT/OS/2 > etc. OS/400 did have routing support for IPX and some other Netware > services, but did not host Netware directly. > > Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software? I know of a place in Bakersfield that still uses Netware. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 3 18:42:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 19:42:39 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: References: <4E7CD899.27453.2A4311A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E8A486F.3070002@neurotica.com> On 10/03/2011 07:01 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software? I have some early releases of Netware, 2.x etc, that were given to me by a listmember for nostalgic purposes. I installed a few dozen Netware 2.15 LANs in NJ in the late 1980s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Oct 3 18:57:41 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 18:57:41 -0500 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8A4BF5.6090105@tx.rr.com> On 10/1/2011 12:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Realistically, I expect they are pretty flexible and are going to be=20 >> looking at the overall person, their background, and competence. > > Yes, I suspect that _engineers_ (or scientists) would be flexible, and > would realise that somebody who was happy writing mathematical programs > is not going to have much problem picking up Excel (say). > > The problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is not > going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a > preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all > candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria. > > -tony > One of the nifty things about working for small outfits is they typically don't have *that* sort of HR person, if any at all. There are many other benefits as well, IMHO. Yes, there are some disadvantages as well, but neither of my two experiences with a "biggy" was very pleasant. -- Later, Charlie C. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 3 19:03:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 17:03:59 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: <20111003162632.P76982@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E89FEC7.9030602@bitsavers.org>, <20111003162632.P76982@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E89EAFF.20645.1A6FAF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2011 at 16:28, Fred Cisin wrote: > Look for small creases in the surface, etc. Or certain brands. Wabash floppies top my list of "you have to be kidding" media. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 3 19:07:59 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 17:07:59 -0700 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8A4E5F.2090806@jwsss.com> On 10/3/2011 4:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Because the item you get is NOT in the picture nor described > I deal quite a lot in surplus -specifically antique and collectable > electronics - and often have duplicates of items. I'm currently dealing with a seller who I have polled for years and may have bought from before. It's not worth looking back years of records, but I have similar material to what I just bought. Since the boards I bought came from a device I'm interested in, I asked if he had more of specific units, and he volunteered that there is another complete unit available at one of his customer's sites. He parted out the unit I have parts of, because there was no interest when he listed it complete, and I missed the listing. So I'm very interested in buying the unit he may have access to, don't feel he needs to list it on epay for me to feel good about having to outbid a 0 feedback bidder. I'm not sure of the reason for the attitude. there is a reason to be friendly to sellers, because if they have one nice gizmo, they probably have a warehouse full. I'd certainly look at past transactions and if they indicate the sale of generally the same stuff as I'm buying on, I'll deal on other stuff around the current auction. It's easy to see which sellers just have something and have no clue (say a rare terminal or part, and 500 collectable dolls are the other things they have listed). and also to look at the feedback. I have had little trouble getting a read from the situation, similar to what I'd find at a swap meet or hamfest. The situation is similar if you are dealing with people there or on ebay. Only difference is whether the seller will ship you the goods when you pay the money, which is easier to settle face to face. However the dealing and read of the vendor is about the same. You've probably missed out on some nice items because of your quick reports, and as William said probably won't be getting anything else from the seller. the worst experiences I've had is getting a bid on an Item I needed or wanted and then the seller cancels for some reason. Jim From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 3 19:10:50 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:10:50 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: References: <4E7CD899.27453.2A4311A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E8A4F0A.10900@atarimuseum.com> I have just about every rev of Netware, as well as most of the Netconnect, LAT for Netware and other installs... I used to be a Systems Engineer and CNE and loved working with Netware. Occassionally I will setup a Netware server in my office just to mess around a bit.... man I remember those NW 2.15 installs... used to take like 2 hrs to prep a 10mb HD! :-) Nigel Williams wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > >> The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware running on an AS/400 >> at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's >> > > I expect this was using the IPCS (Integrated PC Server), a plug-in > card which contained various x86 CPUs running Netware/Windows NT/OS/2 > etc. OS/400 did have routing support for IPX and some other Netware > services, but did not host Netware directly. > > Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software? > > > excuse the previous reply, a mis-click on my part. > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 3 19:11:28 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:11:28 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: References: <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E8A4F30.9080902@atarimuseum.com> I remember you'd see on the nightly news and the TV's in the background and how many of them would have Netware snakes running around on them :-) David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum >> wrote: >>> The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware running on an AS/400 >>> at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's >> >> I expect this was using the IPCS (Integrated PC Server), a plug-in >> card which contained various x86 CPUs running Netware/Windows NT/OS/2 >> etc. OS/400 did have routing support for IPX and some other Netware >> services, but did not host Netware directly. >> >> Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software? > > I know of a place in Bakersfield that still uses Netware. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 3 19:21:35 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:21:35 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E89A9A9.2050507@verizon.net> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E89A9A9.2050507@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E8A518F.30503@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/10/11 8:25 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 10/2/2011 11:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Zero feedback doesn't say anything about the trustworthiness of the >> buyer other than it was worth registering to buy the item. Disparaging a >> zero feedback user is like disparaging a newborn baby for crimes they >> haven't committed yet. >> >> --T > > I can't help but think of original sin in the eyes of the Catholic > Church here. Your analogy might not hold exactly. :) Their concept seems, prima facie, the more tenuous. --T > > Keith > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 3 19:31:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:31:37 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8A4BF5.6090105@tx.rr.com> References: <4E8A4BF5.6090105@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4E8A53E9.7000606@neurotica.com> On 10/03/2011 07:57 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: >> The problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is not >> going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a >> preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all >> candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria. >> One of the nifty things about working for small outfits is they > > typically don't have *that* sort of HR person, if any at all. There are > many other benefits as well, IMHO. Yes, there are some disadvantages as > well, but neither of my two experiences with a "biggy" was very pleasant. I agree 100%. That problem (as well as others) started when "Personnel" became "HR", and these pure-overhead staffers got big heads and a really skewed view of how important they are to the operation of a company. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 3 19:41:15 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:41:15 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) References: <4E7CD899.27453.2A4311A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Williams" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:01 PM Subject: Re: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) > > Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software? > > > excuse the previous reply, a mis-click on my part. I think I have a complete set of original disks for Netware 3.12, plus the boxed Intranetware (v4.11 with 250 user liscense). Never got around to setting it up (figured it would be cool on 486 and older machines). From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 20:15:05 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 21:15:05 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E8A4E5F.2090806@jwsss.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> <4E8A4E5F.2090806@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I'm not sure of the reason for the attitude. there is a reason to be friendly to sellers, because if they have one nice gizmo, they probably have a warehouse full. A few years back, I was nice to an ebay seller, bought an IBM 2501 from him, then later bought eleven more major pieces for my mainframe collection. But if I had chosen the dick path, I would only have the one piece. > However the dealing and read of the vendor is about the same. You've probably missed out on some nice items because of your quick reports, and as William said probably won't be getting anything else from the seller. > Yes, buyers that follow the dick path with me get on my blocked list, and *never* come off. Even with begging and crying and sob stories. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 3 20:23:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:23:48 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: <4E8A4F0A.10900@atarimuseum.com> References: <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> <4E8A4F0A.10900@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E8A6024.50005@neurotica.com> On 10/03/2011 08:10 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have just about every rev of Netware, as well as most of the > Netconnect, LAT for Netware and other installs... I used to be a Systems > Engineer and CNE and loved working with Netware. Occassionally I will > setup a Netware server in my office just to mess around a bit.... man I > remember those NW 2.15 installs... used to take like 2 hrs to prep a > 10mb HD! :-) Yes, but then you can run nsnipes.exe! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 3 20:49:38 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:49:38 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: <4E8A486F.3070002@neurotica.com> References: <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> <4E8A486F.3070002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8A6632.30009@atarimuseum.com> Used to do a lot of Netware installs all over NJ and in NYC a lot too... Did a great install at M&M Mars where we connected in their existing Dec Vaxes to some new Novell 3.12 servers we installed... man that was a lot of fun!!! Did an install once where I hooked up a Novell Netconnect server with 4 sessions up to a Wang Mini so that they could connect to it over their IPX/SPX network to PC's running a remote client and they were able to replace the Wang workstations... There was this cool hardware/software add-on we did for a printing firm, you had 2 3.12 servers side by side with this SFT solution called an "Octopus" and basically it kept on identical server in standby, always mirroring the active server and if it lost its ping check to the active server, it would go active, take over the IPX address and name and the users would never know anything, it kept going flawless, it was pretty neat, worked a lot better then Novells own SFT solution. I had a bunch of IPX to Localtalk bridge cards at one time, I wish I'd kept them :-( Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/03/2011 07:01 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: >> Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software? > > I have some early releases of Netware, 2.x etc, that were given to > me by a listmember for nostalgic purposes. I installed a few dozen > Netware 2.15 LANs in NJ in the late 1980s. > > -Dave > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 3 21:14:59 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:14:59 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 2, 11 10:22:47 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > I have found that floppies are sensitive to the stray fields > > of things like monitor deflection coils while they are being recoded. > > I've never seen similar fields cause any problem while reading. > > Even moving the monitor as little as another 6 inches was enough > > to stop the problem. > > I am supriset it affected writing and not reading. Had it been the other > way round, I would have suspected interfecent pickup in the read > amplifier (seen that often enough), this does not damage the disk though. > I assume your disks written when the drive was too close to the monitor > were not readable elsewhere, the data on the disk was genuinely > corrupted. But I don;t see why a disk would be more susceptable to > external mangetic fields when writing than at any other time. > > It also may not have been the defleciton coils. There are plenty of other > magnetic devices in CRT nonitors -- PSU transformer, flyback transformer, > degausisng coil (if a colour CRT), etc. > > -tony Hi Tony I did enough experiments to see that I had no problems reading floppies other than those that were recoreded near the monitor. My guess is that it upset the bias so that it shifted the depth over time, enough to upset the read of the data. The recoding is all through the depth were as the reading is more of a surface thing. To read it is the spacing of the edges of the NS-SN fields. Singe the recording takes place over a larger volume of the media, it can effect the NS-SN transitions because of the depths of the fields. Dwight From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 3 21:56:57 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 22:56:57 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: <4E8A6024.50005@neurotica.com> References: <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> <4E8A4F0A.10900@atarimuseum.com> <4E8A6024.50005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8A75F9.8040403@atarimuseum.com> Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I completely forgot about that!!! :-) Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/03/2011 08:10 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> I have just about every rev of Netware, as well as most of the >> Netconnect, LAT for Netware and other installs... I used to be a Systems >> Engineer and CNE and loved working with Netware. Occassionally I will >> setup a Netware server in my office just to mess around a bit.... man I >> remember those NW 2.15 installs... used to take like 2 hrs to prep a >> 10mb HD! :-) > > Yes, but then you can run nsnipes.exe! > > -Dave > From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Oct 3 22:26:26 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 Message-ID: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 ----------------------------------------- 1. *I* do not own it, just helping the owner. 2. Located in Santa Ana, CA (south of LA) 3. An early time-sharing systems, includes the world?s first 16-bit minicomputer, the HP 2116A. 4. Serial number 0156B. 5. They are asking for just 10% of it's original cost, OBO. 6. Contact me if interested. Must pick-up, no delivery. 7. There are also ASR-33, ASR-35, and ASR-45 terminals. See some photos here: (500K image size) - http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-small.jpg (750K image) - http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-hd.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-hd-small.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-open.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-cards.jpg http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-config.jpg From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:44:00 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:44:00 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2011 8:30 PM, "steven stengel" wrote: > > FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 > ----------------------------------------- Very cool. So what was the original cost? hp.museum.net lists a $22000 figure without configuration specifics. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:46:02 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:46:02 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 3, 2011 8:30 PM, "steven stengel" wrote: > > > > FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 > > ----------------------------------------- > > Very cool. So what was the original cost? hp.museum.net lists a $22000 figure without configuration specifics. Sorry. Meant http://www.hpmuseum.net/ From leaknoil at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 23:03:37 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:03:37 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> On 10/3/2011 8:26 PM, steven stengel wrote: > FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-hd.jpg What is in the gas tank ? That picture scares me. That looks like more Manhattan Project surplus than a computer. Very cool though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 3 23:03:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 00:03:58 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: <4E8A6632.30009@atarimuseum.com> References: <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> <4E8A486F.3070002@neurotica.com> <4E8A6632.30009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E8A85AE.9020209@neurotica.com> On 10/03/2011 09:49 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Used to do a lot of Netware installs all over NJ and in NYC a lot too... > Did a great install at M&M Mars where we connected in their existing Dec > Vaxes to some new Novell 3.12 servers we installed... man that was a lot > of fun!!! Did you have some sort of IPX-based communication going on with the VAXen? > Did an install once where I hooked up a Novell Netconnect > server with 4 sessions up to a Wang Mini so that they could connect to > it over their IPX/SPX network to PC's running a remote client and they > were able to replace the Wang workstations... There was this cool > hardware/software add-on we did for a printing firm, you had 2 3.12 > servers side by side with this SFT solution called an "Octopus" and > basically it kept on identical server in standby, always mirroring the > active server and if it lost its ping check to the active server, it > would go active, take over the IPX address and name and the users would > never know anything, it kept going flawless, it was pretty neat, worked > a lot better then Novells own SFT solution. Neat! > I had a bunch of IPX to Localtalk bridge cards at one time, I wish I'd > kept them :-( Oh, they'd make for some fun on a rainy Sunday afternoon. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 3 23:26:18 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 21:26:18 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d488758472169a852cad4b7328788bf@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Oct 3, at 9:03 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 10/3/2011 8:26 PM, steven stengel wrote: >> FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 >> >> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-hd.jpg > What is in the gas tank ? That picture scares me. That looks like more > Manhattan Project surplus than a computer. Very cool though. I'd guess it's something fairly innocuous like CO2 to pressurise the disc chamber, either or both for head flying height or to keep dust out, or gas bearings perhaps (?) Not very often that discs or drums are seen for the early HP 211x machines. One would need the software to make it an HP 2000 system, or one can hope it's still on disc. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 3 23:33:25 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:33:25 -0700 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8A53E9.7000606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/3/11 5:31 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 10/03/2011 07:57 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: >>> The problem is that the Resume' (CV, whatever you want to call it) is not >>> going to get to the engineers. The HR department acts as a >>> preprocessor, and at least over here they will happilly filter out all >>> candidates who don't meet the strict list of criteria. >>> One of the nifty things about working for small outfits is they >> >> typically don't have *that* sort of HR person, if any at all. There are >> many other benefits as well, IMHO. Yes, there are some disadvantages as >> well, but neither of my two experiences with a "biggy" was very pleasant. > > I agree 100%. That problem (as well as others) started when > "Personnel" became "HR", and these pure-overhead staffers got big heads > and a really skewed view of how important they are to the operation of a > company. > > -Dave Especially true if it is a company that has pulled many former MS HR and execs over. Kind of like a certain "museum" that was initially staffed with museum personnel and then they replaced many of them with former MS managers that had -0- idea on how to run a museum. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 3 23:38:02 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 21:38:02 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Oct 3, at 8:46 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> On Oct 3, 2011 8:30 PM, "steven stengel" wrote: >>> >>> FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 >>> ----------------------------------------- >> >> Very cool. So what was the original cost? hp.museum.net lists a $22000 > figure without configuration specifics. > > Sorry. Meant http://www.hpmuseum.net/ This page says 90,500$ for a 2000A system, although that seems like a lot for the 1969 version: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=411 Not much core in a 2116A to be running a timeshared system. Can't see what the unit under the CPU is - memory expander? disc controller? From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 3 23:42:22 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:42:22 -0700 Subject: Kaypro 4 CP/M disks In-Reply-To: <4E842091.31870.18772F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 9/29/11 7:38 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 29 Sep 2011 at 7:01, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > >> Hi, I'm not unfamiliar with the various versions of the firmware of >> your Kaypro 4, but the only person that comes to mind is Dave >> Dunfield. In time he has collected images of boot disks of many >> machines. I arrange from a few months of a PC configured to be able to >> read and write disk images 3.5 " and 5.25", but I live in Italy. Once >> you've got practice on how to use the software to create boot disks is >> more 'easy to do that to tell it. If there is no one else to may help >> you I can try. I'll give you references of Dave Dunfield: > > Over at Erik's forum, I posted the image of a Kaypro Advent TurboROM > boot. > > --Chuck Looks like I need to replace the cmos battery on the oddball IBM AT I have and swap in a 360K disk drive.... I say oddball because it has some sort of aftermarket accelerator in it that is selectable to percentage and multiple of cpu speed..... (IIRC) So I can write out Kaypro disks... I didn't get any when I got my hands on a couple kaypro 10's a while back. And if I can ever track my friend down , I have a stack of kaypro II's and a 4 or two that are partially complete and at least one or two are complete machines. From ken at seefried.com Mon Oct 3 23:48:38 2011 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 00:48:38 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, Message-ID: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> I know I will regret dipping my toe in this argument, because I'll dump some facts on very well established classiccmop groupthink, but hopeful it will help the few listmember who aren't yet reality-immune on this topic. I'm on my second decade as a hiring manager of one sort or another, from Fortune 10 companies to startups, and I'm a non-degreed candidate for these roles. And I was married to a IT recruiter for a decade. This is a US perspective, BTW...non US markets are more or less different. In particular, the UK isn't so different. It's the party line of course to blame HR in general and the recruiters in particular for being "gatekeepers" and not realizing how amazing the non-degreed candidate is. That's bullshit. The recruiters are *paid* to place people, and since much first tier recruiting has been outsourced, a placement is often the only source of compensation for these folks. Recruiters are continually looking for ways to fit a square peg in a round hole. The first thing a recruiter does when they get a requirement is to say "what of this are you flexible on?". You have no idea how far they will push this. "You want a programmer. My candidate has a computer", "You need a security expert? My candidate worked mall security for 5 years". "Project management? My candidate managed a Pizza Hut." These are not exaggerations, they are personal antidotes. Anyone who's ever signed up for a job search site knows how wide a net the recruiters cast. Recruiters are sales people, often not good ones, usually working on commission, trying to sell a hiring manager on whatever they have in the queue, no matter how bad a match. Period. Full stop. Conversely, it's very rare that a hiring manager says "I don't care how good a match the candidate is, if they don't have a degree, I don't want them". It happens, usually with a junior manager who hasn't been around the block a couple of times, but it's not the norm. Any of us who have been around for a bit all know that there are good candidates in any candidate pool. But there's a reason we all put "BS required" in those ads, and it is because it's a filter. It's not a have/not have filter. It's an asshole/not asshole filter. Hate to break it to folks, but getting through HR without a degree isn't that hard (been there, done that), but if your answer to "so you don't have a degree" is "let me read you the riot act about how stupid you are to require a degree", "degree requirements are bullshit and you should rely on the intangible things I think make me awesome" or "degrees are a waste of time, and the fact that most of your employees have one has no bearing on the fact that I'm in a special category", then don't be surprised if the HR drone says "I don't care how much I've got to make mortgage this month, I'm not going to try and sell this assclown to the hiring manager. There's a dozen other folks in the queue who can at least fake being a reasonable human being". So, bottom line, if you're "perfect" for the jobs, but you think you are continually getting turned down because you don't have a degree, you're wrong. You're either *really* not perfect, or you're toxic waste from a personality/attitude standpoint. Usually the later. Yes, I know...you're different/special/unique and none of this applies to you. SOP for this list. I'm just telling you what I've learned from dozens of HR orgs, a couple of hundred slots I've been responsible for filling and several thousand candidates I've had to weed through. Not that that matters. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 3 23:54:22 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 00:54:22 -0400 Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip) In-Reply-To: <4E8A85AE.9020209@neurotica.com> References: <4E7E28F0.40707@neurotica.com> <4E7EC4A2.606@neurotica.com> <20110926095404.J85763@shell.lmi.net> <4E80B3D0.8030801@neurotica.com> <4E8110E6.2020807@neurotica.com> <20110926173430.F95610@shell.lmi.net> <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed@mail.mxes.net> <4E8A3B76.5020802@atarimuseum.com> <4E8A486F.3070002@neurotica.com> <4E8A6632.30009@atarimuseum.com> <4E8A85AE.9020209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8A917E.80908@atarimuseum.com> I still have the network layouts... we did a Novell to Vax NFS install.... I remember it well now, it was a Novell NFS gateway install and we installed Vax NFS onto two of their Vaxes, one was local at the Mt. Olive location and the other was done in Chicago... Later on at other customer sites we did a lot of installs with Leverage Host which made a Vax look like a Novell 3.12 server, that was a great piece of software, you would set it up on the Vax, then you'd install Netware to it from a IPX connected PC and once the Netware was installed you'd have a Vax that PC workstations would'nt know any different from a Novell server, you could even rconsole onto it to configure NLM's and such. Man I miss doing Netware work!!! Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/03/2011 09:49 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Used to do a lot of Netware installs all over NJ and in NYC a lot too... >> Did a great install at M&M Mars where we connected in their existing Dec >> Vaxes to some new Novell 3.12 servers we installed... man that was a lot >> of fun!!! > > Did you have some sort of IPX-based communication going on with the > VAXen? > >> Did an install once where I hooked up a Novell Netconnect >> server with 4 sessions up to a Wang Mini so that they could connect to >> it over their IPX/SPX network to PC's running a remote client and they >> were able to replace the Wang workstations... There was this cool >> hardware/software add-on we did for a printing firm, you had 2 3.12 >> servers side by side with this SFT solution called an "Octopus" and >> basically it kept on identical server in standby, always mirroring the >> active server and if it lost its ping check to the active server, it >> would go active, take over the IPX address and name and the users would >> never know anything, it kept going flawless, it was pretty neat, worked >> a lot better then Novells own SFT solution. > > Neat! > >> I had a bunch of IPX to Localtalk bridge cards at one time, I wish I'd >> kept them :-( > > Oh, they'd make for some fun on a rainy Sunday afternoon. :) > > -Dave > From fryers at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 00:04:35 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:04:35 +0800 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: All, On 4 October 2011 12:48, KJ Seefried wrote: [Kens wisdom] What I have experienced on both side, being an interviewer hiring people, and as a interviewee looking for a job, in both the UK and Australia, Kens description is pretty much spot on in my experience. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From doug at doughq.com Mon Oct 3 18:09:14 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:09:14 +1100 Subject: Kanbak-uino Arduino-based KENBAK-1 Recreation In-Reply-To: References: <1317310197.42059.YahooMailNeo@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Christian, I work with youth quite a bit - Let me help translate. ---------------------- Wow - That is an amazing find. I am impressed. Arduino: It is funny, because I am seeing more ane more references to the Arduino platform quite a bit lately, especially at my local computing club (Hacker Space). Actually, it was not until I joined Hacker Space that I heard of the Arduino Platform. Quite funny that. --------------------- :-) Doug On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> wow kool >> >> adrino funny been seen that stuff allot latly speacialy at my local hacker >> space infact never herd of their gear till i joined the hackerspace haha >> > > I'd be ashamed if I produced such garbage in my mother tongue... > And I don't even know what you wanted to say, I just can't "parse" it. > Whatever I try, I constanly get a SYNTAX ERROR ;-) > > Christian > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 01:03:28 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 07:03:28 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E8A4302.3010109@neurotica.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> <4E8A4302.3010109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 12:19 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/03/2011 02:51 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report >>>>>> to >>>>>> ebay :) >>>>> >>>>> ?Huh? ?Why? ?It's a pretty common practice when the seller has more >>>>> than >>>>> one >>>>> unit to sell. ?I've done it myself. >>>> >>>> By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one >>>> off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of >>>> me. >>>> >>>> I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. >>> >>> ?How is having more than one of something to sell "playing games" or >>> "dishonest"? ?I am very confused here. >> >> Because the item you get is NOT in the picture nor described > > ?And this is really an issue for IDENTICAL items? ?Say, even in their > packaging? ?(that's when I do it) > > ?There's holding sellers to a high standard, and then there's being anal for > the sake of being anal. > > ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > was Item 160644988749 by its nature and the sellers 94% the picture was not matching the items I suspected a shill bid to extract the max as others discussed Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 01:40:14 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 07:40:14 +0100 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! But there's a reason we all put "BS required" in those ads, and it is because it's a filter. It's not a have/not have filter. It's an asshole/not asshole filter. This proves the job seekers view of HR, The complexity of a machines repair here is required as a primary skill, some thing as simple as mail program can be learned or taught, it is far to trivial to be mentioned in any job specification. Dave CAroline From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 4 01:59:41 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 23:59:41 -0700 Subject: auction photos (was Re: The Commodore 65) In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8AAEDD.3070700@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > I deal quite a lot in surplus -specifically antique and collectable > electronics - and often have duplicates of items. Identical, often new, > never out of the wrappings. And yes, sometimes high ticket stuff. For much > of it, I *dare* you to find differences in the identical items. Sometimes > hundreds of items that were probably made within minutes of each other, > years ago. New pictures of every item is wasteful. On the other hand, the seller has no way to know what characteristics of the item are important to me as a buyer. I've bought things where the seller indicated that the photo was the actual item being sold, bought the item, received it, and found that it was actually not the pictured item. In a recent case, the vendor/mask/date code of a chip on a board were different, and those actually mattered to me. Maybe to anyone else it wouldn't have mattered. If the seller hadn't stated that picture was the actual item, I might have asked, but because he did, I believed him. (Of course, if he was willing to lie in the posting, he might also have lied if I asked by email.) If an auction listing has a picture, and the picture isn't the actual item, there should be an explicit statement of that fact. Otherwise the auction listing is false advertising, and a buyer that is dissatisfied with the item for not matching the photo has a legitimate complaint. Eric From leaknoil at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 02:05:33 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 00:05:33 -0700 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <4E8AB03D.4050908@gmail.com> On 10/3/2011 11:40 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > But there's a reason we all put "BS required" in those ads, and it is > because it's a filter. It's not a have/not have filter. It's an > asshole/not asshole filter. Seriously one of the most messed up paragraphs ever to come across cctalk. From fryers at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 02:12:23 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 15:12:23 +0800 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: I have a horrible feeling I am going to regret adding my 2c to this argument. On 4 October 2011 14:40, Dave Caroline wrote: > You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! No. But getting up tight/argumentative over a trivial piece of the job description would certainly make you a candidate. > But there's a reason we all put "BS required" in those ads, and it is > because it's a filter. ?It's not a have/not have filter. ?It's an > asshole/not asshole filter. > > This proves the job seekers view of HR, The complexity of a machines > repair here is required as a primary skill, some thing as simple as > mail program can be learned or taught, it is far to trivial to be > mentioned in any job specification. I think the point and the reader failed to converge. I had a very quick read of the job spec and while understanding the complexity of machines quite highly rated, this is a senior role. I would expect that report writing, project management and managing people are equally high on the list... To the point where I would expect the role to actually involve very little fault finding and repairing, and a more supervision. This did not read like a job spec for a role where you spend every day doing hands on component level diagnostics, repair and restoration equipment. Simon. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 02:15:13 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 08:15:13 +0100 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8AB03D.4050908@gmail.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <4E8AB03D.4050908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:05 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 10/3/2011 11:40 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >> >> But there's a reason we all put "BS required" in those ads, and it is >> because it's a filter. ?It's not a have/not have filter. ?It's an >> asshole/not asshole filter. > > Seriously one of the most messed up paragraphs ever to come across cctalk. > Yes and we job seekers see the same sh** in so may adverts. It is depressing that someone who could learn a new skill is thrown on the heap by that sort of filter Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 02:37:44 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 08:37:44 +0100 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: > I have a horrible feeling I am going to regret adding my 2c to this argument. > > On 4 October 2011 14:40, Dave Caroline wrote: >> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! > > No. But getting up tight/argumentative over a trivial piece of the job > description would certainly make you a candidate. > It is a trivial requirement but cuts me out from applying at all, it trumps skills I do have. Like I said it would be a dream job but being in the wrong country for me I cannot apply. Dave Caroline From fryers at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 03:21:57 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:21:57 +0800 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: All, On 4 October 2011 15:37, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: >> I have a horrible feeling I am going to regret adding my 2c to this argument. >> >> On 4 October 2011 14:40, Dave Caroline wrote: >>> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! >> >> No. But getting up tight/argumentative over a trivial piece of the job >> description would certainly make you a candidate. >> > > It is a trivial requirement but cuts me out from applying at all, it > trumps skills I do have. Given that the job isn't for a MS Exchange / helpdesk role, I would interpret that requirement as, "you are expected to be able to use email, and we use outlook." Personally, I would pay token note to this but wouldn't read too much into this requirement. If I was addressing the requirement, while being a happy gmail / eudora / insert graphical mail application of choice user, I would refer to the fact that I regularly use email clients and expand on it some more to give the impression you have used outlook, but stop short of actually saying that you have, and certainly don't say that you haven't. I find most jobs have some core requirements that you must know in order to carry out the work. There are quite a few others where you will have done something similar and will pick up the specifics fast enough... And there will often be training etc on the side. Being able to read through the advertisement, work out what the job will involve and what the key skills are is important. Generally the list is for some mythical person that does not exist. If you can do all of it, you are probably not going to find the job challenging and be on your way in a matter of months. The trick is to tick off the key ones that they are looking for. > Like I said it would be a dream job but being in the wrong country for > me I cannot apply. I am in Australia so I don't qualify either. Aside, when reviewing or writing job specifications I have never bothered to list MS Office or a specific email client. I take it for granted that everyone knows MS Office and can pick up an email client quickly enough. And before anyone commits fingers to keyboards over MS Office, I hate it too and would much rather use LaTeX. However, in my 15 years of working history through a number of different jobs and fields, all my company supplied PC's have had Office installed and the expectation is that any documentation will be produced in Word. As for software packages in general, I find it is more useful to concentrate on underlying skills that can be applied rather than an ability to use a software package without the underlying knowledge. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 06:11:02 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 08:11:02 -0300 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-hd.jpg > What is in the gas tank ? That picture scares me. That looks like more > Manhattan Project surplus than a computer. Very cool though. That is where the brain is stored, suspended in white blood...It was originally transparent, but HP changed to an opaque enclosure because it drawn too much attention :) From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 4 06:53:56 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:53:56 +0200 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20b9b132330ce14b59b693399cc1bb89.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >>> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-hd.jpg >> What is in the gas tank ? That picture scares me. That looks like more >> Manhattan Project surplus than a computer. Very cool though. > > That is where the brain is stored, suspended in white blood...It was > originally transparent, but HP changed to an opaque enclosure because it > drawn too much attention :) > > Apparently, the gas tank is part of a NOx kit for extra power.... -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 07:12:44 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 07:12:44 -0500 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <20b9b132330ce14b59b693399cc1bb89.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> <20b9b132330ce14b59b693399cc1bb89.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4E8AF83C.60808@gmail.com> E. Groenenberg wrote: >>>> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-hd.jpg >>> What is in the gas tank ? That picture scares me. That looks like more >>> Manhattan Project surplus than a computer. Very cool though. >> That is where the brain is stored, suspended in white blood...It was >> originally transparent, but HP changed to an opaque enclosure because it >> drawn too much attention :) > > Apparently, the gas tank is part of a NOx kit for extra power.... There's a speed dial on the front that goes all the way up to 11. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 4 07:46:23 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 08:46:23 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <4E8B001F.9060002@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/10/11 4:21 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > On 4 October 2011 15:37, Dave Caroline wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: >>> I have a horrible feeling I am going to regret adding my 2c to this argument. >>> >>> On 4 October 2011 14:40, Dave Caroline wrote: >>>> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! >>> >>> No. But getting up tight/argumentative over a trivial piece of the job >>> description would certainly make you a candidate. >>> >> >> It is a trivial requirement but cuts me out from applying at all, it >> trumps skills I do have. > > Given that the job isn't for a MS Exchange / helpdesk role, I would > interpret that requirement as, "you are expected to be able to use > email, and we use outlook." ... > Aside, when reviewing or writing job specifications I have never > bothered to list MS Office or a specific email client. I take it for > granted that everyone knows MS Office and can pick up an email client > quickly enough. And before anyone commits fingers to keyboards over MS > Office, I hate it too and would much rather use LaTeX. However, in my > 15 years of working history through a number of different jobs and > fields, all my company supplied PC's have had Office installed and the Worse, they had Windows installed. --T > expectation is that any documentation will be produced in Word. > > As for software packages in general, I find it is more useful to > concentrate on underlying skills that can be applied rather than an > ability to use a software package without the underlying knowledge. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 4 08:28:13 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 06:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: <4E89EAFF.20645.1A6FAF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C4CA39A.1154.2BE527E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E89FEC7.9030602@bitsavers.org>, <20111003162632.P76982@shell.lmi.net> <4E89EAFF.20645.1A6FAF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Oct 2011 at 16:28, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Look for small creases in the surface, etc. > > Or certain brands. Wabash floppies top my list of "you have to be > kidding" media. Maaaany years ago I worked for Gemini Shareware for a short time doing disk duplication. I was astonished at some of the crap disks they were buying. I found one 5.25" disk that had what appeared to be a 1/2" wide strip of cellophane tape on the cookie. it was almost as if they coated to the very end of the roll, including the tape that held the material to the cardboard tube. The Tracer 5 disk duplicators were cool as hell though. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 4 08:45:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 06:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Simon Fryer wrote: > I think the point and the reader failed to converge. > If my .sig wasn't already huge, this would get added to it. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Tue Oct 4 08:46:23 2011 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 06:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak one recreation story on Gizmodo Message-ID: http://gizmodo.com/5846177/modder-recreates-first-pc-from-scratch quote: "The Kenbak-1 is 40 years old, runs at 1 MHz, and can't do very much besides blink. But computers had a humble start in this little guy, and modder Mark Wilson replicated the antique with 21st century parts." ----------------- Thomas PDP-11 Dzubin Vancouver, Calgary or Saskatoon From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 4 08:49:27 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 06:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: >> I have a horrible feeling I am going to regret adding my 2c to this argument. >> >> On 4 October 2011 14:40, Dave Caroline wrote: >>> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! >> >> No. But getting up tight/argumentative over a trivial piece of the job >> description would certainly make you a candidate. >> > > It is a trivial requirement but cuts me out from applying at all, it > trumps skills I do have. > Are you kidding me? It's a stupid email program. Any drooling monkey can learn how to use it in 10 minutes. Go download it, install it and mess around with it for a day to see all the spiffy calendar features, etc. Uninstall and add it to your resume'. :) > Like I said it would be a dream job but being in the wrong country for > me I cannot apply. So why do you care if they require Outlook or not? Seriously? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From doc at vaxen.net Tue Oct 4 10:03:50 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 10:03:50 -0500 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <4E8B2056.2000808@vaxen.net> Dave Caroline wrote: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: >> I have a horrible feeling I am going to regret adding my 2c to this argument. >> >> On 4 October 2011 14:40, Dave Caroline wrote: >>> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! >> No. But getting up tight/argumentative over a trivial piece of the job >> description would certainly make you a candidate. >> > > It is a trivial requirement but cuts me out from applying at all, it > trumps skills I do have. I've never ever let my lack of one qualifying skill stop me from applying. I have no degree, but like most of us I have a stack of certifications in my field and I'm reasonably well educated and I speak well. I dress nicely and shave for interviews. I always go into an interview expecting the interviewer to be an ally, not a Tool Of Satan. I always maximize descriptions of my skillsets. I never exaggerate them. Having said that, I firmly believe that saying "I don't know how to answer that" at least once in an interview is a qualifier, not a detractor. I've been the interviewer (as the technical expert, not as HR) more often than interviewee in the last 10 years, and can say that all the above show me a reliable, flexible asset to my team. In my current job, I'm pretty sure that what got me hired was the question "Why do you want to work for us?" My answer was "Because everyone here is smarter than me." Doc From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 4 12:11:35 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 11:11:35 -0600 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: In article , Dave Caroline writes: > You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! Yes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 3 14:16:53 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 12:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E89A9A9.2050507@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1317669413.40895.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/3/11, Keith Monahan wrote: > I can't help but think of original sin in the eyes of the > Catholic > Church here. Your analogy might not hold exactly. :) > > Keith I can't help but think of Asimov's foundation series. > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Oct 4 04:08:42 2011 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:08:42 +0100 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: >>>> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! <<<< Suppose I was using "Mail" (on a Mac) instead of Outlook and wanted to apply, then in the section of my application that directly addressed the stated requirements I would say something like: 'I prefer to use "Mail", but I have tried Outlook and am capable of using it if required'. Preferable take the time to ensure that this is a true statement :-) (certainly if offered an interview take that time!) If I have a philosophical objection to using Microsoft (or generally non-free) software then ramming it in the recruiters face _is_ being an asshole. Being retired, I haven't sat on either side of the recruiters desk for 5 years but during 30+ years in computing services at a university have spent many a day as one of the panel doing the interviewing. Universities, not surprisingly, tend to give a lot of weight to degrees* and yet we have been through essentially three periods of recruiting: In the earliest, the ideal candidate (even if we didn't publicly admit it) was someone who failed their (typically Maths or Physics) degree because they got addicted to computing; Then came the period when degrees in some form of computing were common and the PC era had not yet started. In this period we managed to recruit a remarkable collection of highly qualified people (1sts from a good University, sometimes even a PhD); Finally, in the PC era, it became apparent that we didn't need high qualifications from staff - more the "people skills" to explain how to use simple software to even simpler students :-( So we went for people with help desk experience and didn't look at their formal qualifications at all. I don't think I ever interviewed Tony**, Jules, or any other of the prominent UK members of this list - but if I had they would probably remember one of their claims being questioned down to a very detailed level. In the third era I did similar questioning with a different purpose ... to see if the candidate would at some point say "I don't know" - if they continued bullshitting when they should have admitted such they were almost certainly OUT! * Apart from anything else, it is so much more difficult when trying to get a promotion for someone if they don't have a degree and are being compared to a lower-paid lecturer with a PhD. An advantage we did have was that for any 'obscure' degree we could just ring up the Admissions Office to ask "How would a degree from compare to one from a mid-range UK institution?" and get a meaningful response. ** I'm sure I would remember Tony if I had interviewed him :-) He might well have got a job from us in the first or second era ... not a chance in the third. Andy From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 12:30:11 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:30:11 +0100 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Dave Caroline writes: > >> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! > > Yes. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > That sort of insult is uncalled for I request an apology Dave Caroline From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue Oct 4 12:30:07 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:30:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <732795397.17956.1317749407769.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 14 >Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:43:20 +0100 >From: Dave Caroline dave.thearchivist at gmail.com > >On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/03/2011 11:26 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: >>> >>> Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report to >>> ebay :) >> >> ?Huh? ?Why? ?It's a pretty common practice when the seller has more than one >> unit to sell. ?I've done it myself. >> >> ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> > >By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one >off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of >me. > >I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. > > Dave Caroline As a seller, I've had auctions where the winning bidder crapped out, so I have made a Second Chance offer to the next highest bidder rather than relist the item. No shilling? or dishonesty was involved. Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 4 12:38:07 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 11:38:07 -0600 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <4E8B447F.1050906@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/4/2011 3:08 AM, Andy Holt wrote: > > ** I'm sure I would remember Tony if I had interviewed him :-) He might well > have got a job from us in the first or second era ... not a chance in the > third. Don't forget who you know, and luck also gets you in. I suspect the real problem is still eye candy greed, make a quick buck, and that means low quality in any field not just computers with cheep labor. When was the last time you found quality in America or any other Country. > Andy > Ben. PS. This typed on a computer that costs less than the model M keyboard used with it. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 12:49:18 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:49:18 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <732795397.17956.1317749407769.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <732795397.17956.1317749407769.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:30 PM, wrote: > > > > >>Message: 14 >>Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:43:20 +0100 >>From: Dave Caroline dave.thearchivist at gmail.com >> > >>On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 10/03/2011 11:26 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: >>>> >>>> Last person to give me an instant second chance got an instant report to >>>> ebay :) >>> >>> ?Huh? ?Why? ?It's a pretty common practice when the seller has more than one >>> unit to sell. ?I've done it myself. >>> >>> ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire >>> Port Charlotte, FL >>> >> >>By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one >>off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of >>me. >> >>I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. >> >> Dave Caroline > > As a seller, I've had auctions where the winning bidder crapped out, so I have made a Second Chance offer to the next highest bidder rather than relist the item. No shilling? or dishonesty was involved. > > > > Bob > Yup but there is some days delay when that happens and is understandable getting a second chance offer within minutes or less I just checked timings date Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:16 PM subject You didn't win the eBay item : Job Lot Computers, Monitors, Printers (160644988749) date Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:16 PM subject You've received a Second Chance Offer on eBay item: Job Lot Computers, Monitors, Printers (160648252064) Dave Caroline From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 12:51:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 13:51:10 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <4E8B478E.6090606@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 01:11 PM, Richard wrote: > In article, > Dave Caroline writes: > >> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! > > Yes. Wow, you really have bought into the whole Microsoft thing hook, line, and sinker, haven't you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 4 12:56:52 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 11:56:52 -0600 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: In article , Dave Caroline writes: > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > In article , > > Dave Caroline writes: > > > >> You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! > > > > Yes. If you don't want an answer, don't ask a question. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 12:56:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 13:56:46 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <732795397.17956.1317749407769.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E8B48DE.4000201@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 01:49 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > Yup but there is some days delay when that happens and is understandable > getting a second chance offer within minutes or less > I just checked timings > > date Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:16 PM > subject You didn't win the eBay item : Job Lot Computers, Monitors, > Printers (160644988749) > > date Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:16 PM > subject You've received a Second Chance Offer on eBay item: Job Lot > Computers, Monitors, Printers (160648252064) Ok, I'll admit, that looks very suspicious. There's no way he had an identical lot to sell. -D. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Oct 4 13:16:50 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 14:16:50 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <4E8B48DE.4000201@neurotica.com> References: <732795397.17956.1317749407769.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4E8B48DE.4000201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8B4D92.6040006@atarimuseum.com> I've seen that before and when I didn't accept the second chance, sure enough like a week later the same item would go back up for auction, then you know for a fact it was a shilled up auction. Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/04/2011 01:49 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >> Yup but there is some days delay when that happens and is understandable >> getting a second chance offer within minutes or less >> I just checked timings >> >> date Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:16 PM >> subject You didn't win the eBay item : Job Lot Computers, Monitors, >> Printers (160644988749) >> >> date Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:16 PM >> subject You've received a Second Chance Offer on eBay item: Job Lot >> Computers, Monitors, Printers (160648252064) > > Ok, I'll admit, that looks very suspicious. There's no way he had > an identical lot to sell. > > -D. > From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 13:24:06 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 11:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1317752646.7836.YahooMailClassic@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The gas bottle by the hard drive said "Helium" on it - very weird. It seems unlikely that the hard drive is Helium-tight. For cooling? --- On Mon, 10/3/11, leaknoil wrote: > From: leaknoil > Subject: Re: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 9:03 PM > On 10/3/2011 8:26 PM, steven stengel > wrote: > > FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 > > > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/hp-2000a-hd.jpg > What is in the gas tank ? That picture scares me. That > looks like more > Manhattan Project surplus than a computer. Very cool > though. > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 4 13:58:25 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 11:58:25 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <1317752646.7836.YahooMailClassic@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com>, <1317752646.7836.YahooMailClassic@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E8AF4E1.19477.A0D43D@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Oct 2011 at 11:24, steven stengel wrote: > The gas bottle by the hard drive said "Helium" on it - very weird. It > seems unlikely that the hard drive is Helium-tight. For cooling? Pretty much. Helium has been used with magnetic drums at least since the 1950s. It has a relatively high heat transfer coefficient and so reduces localized heating between the drum and stationary heads. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 4 14:16:28 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 12:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: <1317669413.40895.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1317669413.40895.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111004121519.U5334@shell.lmi.net> > > I can't help but think of original sin in the eyes of the Catholic > > Church here. Your analogy might not hold exactly. :) On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Chris M wrote: > I can't help but think of Asimov's foundation series. I can't help but think of HHGTTG, specifically Golgafrincham. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 12:32:58 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:32:58 +0100 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, Vulcan Inc., Seattle References: Message-ID: <013801cc82ca$f1f6cdb0$91075d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 1:32 AM Subject: Re: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, Vulcan Inc., Seattle > > Granted this is the UK, US might be different, but why the need for a > > piece of paper? > > A piece of paper shows that the holder has at least some stamina and > backbone to actually finish something, in some official way. > > -- > Will True, but some workplaces (atleast here in the UK) offer apprenticeships - you learn as you go (e.g. night classes paid by the employer) at the same time as you get experience during the day. It's a win-win situation. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 14:25:50 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:25:50 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8B5DBE.9080406@gmail.com> Dave Caroline wrote: > By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one > off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of > me. > > I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. Please feel welcome not to bid on my auctions. Peace... Sridhar From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 14:37:07 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 12:37:07 -0700 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2011 9:47 AM, "Dave Caroline" wrote: > > By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one > off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of > me. > > I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. > A shill bid on a $10 item? How would that be worth the time and hassle for a seller? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 4 14:43:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> > You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! Think of a rigid requirement of a specific mail program, or other largely interchangeable tool, as an asshole/not-asshole filter of employERs. My employer (a community college system) uses Outhouse, and more than once a week IT/helpdesk has to try again to explain phishing, and begging people to not open attachments. People who pass on urban legends, as "TRUE", get thanked by their colleagues, debunkers get chastised for "being mean". Last week was the "cell phone DO NOT CALL". There is a concerted effort to AVOID compliance with the state mandate of teaching "information competency". Yesterday, we received a > MB email that consisted of a single sentence. BUT, it was tilted a few degrees, and the signature was a different color. One of our top administators, to send out that single sentence, had created a Weird document, printed it out, SCANNED that, and sent it out as an attachment to an email with a Subject: line of "FYI", and a message body (other than the attachment), of "Open the attachment." BTW, many years ago, they employed substantial additional temporary staff to do scanning when they changed the OFFICIAL word processor from WordPervert to Weird. They tried to fire one of my colleagues for being a hoarder, and retrieving working computer hardware from college dumpsters (including an 11/70, which was no longer in his office). They gave him 2 hours to get what he could out of his [admittedly JAM-PACKED] office and then dumpstered everything else that he hadn't stuffed into his car, including NorthstarS, Sol, and a few more S100 machines. I don't think that I can manage to avoid getting fired [for doing my job] for another 3.64 semesters. Thursday, I gave copies to a student who requested them, of the Grand Jury investigation into our administration and the Accreditation Commissions' report when they placed our accreditation "on probation". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 4 15:00:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <1317752646.7836.YahooMailClassic@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1317752646.7836.YahooMailClassic@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111004130011.O5334@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, steven stengel wrote: > The gas bottle by the hard drive said "Helium" on it - very weird. It > seems unlikely that the hard drive is Helium-tight. For cooling? to reduce the floor loading? From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Oct 4 15:05:06 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 15:05:06 -0500 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Think of a rigid requirement of a specific mail program, or other largely > interchangeable tool, as an asshole/not-asshole filter of employERs. > > My employer (a community college system) uses Outhouse, and? (snip) While reading your message, I somehow became confused and thought I was at the Scary Devil Monastery? From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:06:11 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 16:06:11 -0400 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8B6733.9070709@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Apart from Lawrence, who AIUI is a former user - as he just gave me a > pile of OS/2 boxes yesterday :?) - are there any other OS/2 users on > the list? Or are there any active OS/2 mailing lists still around? Me. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:13:42 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 16:13:42 -0400 Subject: Load for testing powersupplies. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8B68F6.6030307@gmail.com> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > It's been quite a while since I've had to troubleshoot a powersupply and I > have one that is making a loud whine and need to put a load on it to make > sure it is functioning properly. Any suggestions? It is 12V/24V switchable > output. A car headlight bulb? Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 4 15:16:32 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Think of a rigid requirement of a specific mail program, or other largely >> interchangeable tool, as an asshole/not-asshole filter of employERs. >> >> My employer (a community college system) uses Outhouse, and? (snip) > > While reading your message, I somehow became confused and thought I was > at the Scary Devil Monastery? > \o/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:19:04 2011 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:19:04 +1100 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic proportions - and people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything produced in the last 30 years. This post is a perfect example : "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular products have been the business standard for quite a few years now and a lot of roles are advertised that require the applicants to be proficient in their uses. Nor should users of the products be denigrated as useless or idiots because they use them - claiming such only proves that YOU are the foolish one. These are the tools of the trade now (and despite the haters who seem to think they are "rubbish") are rather powerful ones - especially Outlook. I have a fondness for Commodore 8 bit machines and have for a long time, but you won't ever find me holding them up as the paragon of computing experience or denigrating users of modern equipment/software in the false belief that the tools of the trade were better 30 years ago! Were I a newbie looking for info on older machines and had I stumbled across this thread first I doubt I'd want to jump in and participate for fear of the angst I'd face from the stone age "things were better" people here. And to drag this back on topic, in my role (Genesys engineer), when I'm hiring people that piece of paper that states they are a certified Genesys professional has great importance - I would not hire someone if (a) they didn't have it, or (b) they weren't embarked on the certification process without some indication that they would come out the other end with the relevant qualifications. There are times when a piece of paper is extremely important to some roles because it shows dedication to achieving the relevant learning for a particular role. Going backwards - we may all love and be passionate about our old machines and may have learnt skills to keep our hobby alive, but those skills (ie soldering, coding in a dead language etc) don't nec. translate into something useful in today's computer related job market and people should not be put down or denigrated because they don't have them. Cheers, Lance (yes - written in Outlook) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2011 6:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, > You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! Think of a rigid requirement of a specific mail program, or other largely interchangeable tool, as an asshole/not-asshole filter of employERs. My employer (a community college system) uses Outhouse, and more than once a week IT/helpdesk has to try again to explain phishing, and begging people to not open attachments. People who pass on urban legends, as "TRUE", get thanked by their colleagues, debunkers get chastised for "being mean". Last week was the "cell phone DO NOT CALL". There is a concerted effort to AVOID compliance with the state mandate of teaching "information competency". Yesterday, we received a > MB email that consisted of a single sentence. BUT, it was tilted a few degrees, and the signature was a different color. One of our top administators, to send out that single sentence, had created a Weird document, printed it out, SCANNED that, and sent it out as an attachment to an email with a Subject: line of "FYI", and a message body (other than the attachment), of "Open the attachment." BTW, many years ago, they employed substantial additional temporary staff to do scanning when they changed the OFFICIAL word processor from WordPervert to Weird. They tried to fire one of my colleagues for being a hoarder, and retrieving working computer hardware from college dumpsters (including an 11/70, which was no longer in his office). They gave him 2 hours to get what he could out of his [admittedly JAM-PACKED] office and then dumpstered everything else that he hadn't stuffed into his car, including NorthstarS, Sol, and a few more S100 machines. I don't think that I can manage to avoid getting fired [for doing my job] for another 3.64 semesters. Thursday, I gave copies to a student who requested them, of the Grand Jury investigation into our administration and the Accreditation Commissions' report when they placed our accreditation "on probation". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:43:00 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:43:00 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 65 In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Oct 3, 2011 9:47 AM, "Dave Caroline" wrote: >> >> By its nature of being a qty on a pallet with a picture it was a one >> off in my opinion with a shill bid to get as much as he could out of >> me. >> >> I dont play those games, be honest as a seller please. >> > > A shill bid on a $10 item? How would that be worth the time and hassle for a > seller? > I happen to know a person who was actually a regular shill bidder on his own gear and was asked to participate which I avoided doing, but it does give me an insight into those that do. They are just maximising profit in their eyes. It is the same as being at a real auction and the auctioneer using the wall behind you. I think that happened to me once on a logic analyzer. On the punters side there is the ring where only one bids to keep the price down. to defend yourself there put a book bid on and stand in the crowd stationary and watch the rings expressions. Dave Caroline From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 15:48:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 16:48:05 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 04:19 PM, Lance Lyon wrote: > Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic proportions - and > people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be > permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything produced in > the last 30 years. > > This post is a perfect example : > > "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular > products have been the business standard for quite a few years now and a lot > of roles are advertised that require the applicants to be proficient in > their uses. "Business standard"...assuming that's even true, are you suggesting that this is supposed to indicate a good product, or suggest that I should use it? That's pretty silly, and awfully unprofessional. "Business people" love Microsoft because they think Microsoft and Bill Gates are the same entity, and like to be associated with money and financial success. These people typically haven't an iota of technical know-how, and they're NOT the people who should be telling others what tools to use to do their jobs. > Nor should users of the products be denigrated as useless or idiots because > they use them - claiming such only proves that YOU are the foolish one. No. Nowhere was it suggested that Outlook and Word are bad because they're somehow "modern". It was suggested that Outlook and Word are bad because, well, they ARE. And frankly, anyone with so much as a whit of technical experience or know-how KNOWS that. Like it or not, computers are technical tools. You don't see true hard-core technical people using Outlook or Word, EVER. There's a reason for that. Trust the opinions of people who actually know how this stuff works and what it's supposed to do, not some plastic-haired idiot out on the golf course who will buy anything that's advertised in BusinessWeek magazine. > These are the tools of the trade now (and despite the haters who seem to > think they are "rubbish") are rather powerful ones - especially Outlook. Heh. Good thing that's a fantasy, otherwise the world would be in an even worse situation than it already is. This smacks of the exact same credibility-smashing crap that Richard spewed a few hours ago when he suggested that anyone who doesn't use Outlook is an "asshole". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 4 15:49:46 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <1317752646.7836.YahooMailClassic@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1317752646.7836.YahooMailClassic@web110616.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, steven stengel wrote: > The gas bottle by the hard drive said "Helium" on it - very weird. It seems unlikely that the hard drive is Helium-tight. For cooling? The original hard disk on the Air Force AN/FYQ-93 (based on a Hughes H5118ME central computer and four HMP-1116 peripheral processors) used a similar setup. One of the preventive maintenance tasks was to check the pressure and pump function. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:56:24 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:56:24 -0300 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14281C1DCA2248C3B4F4CC9E4DD544B0@portajara> > No. Nowhere was it suggested that Outlook and Word are bad because > they're somehow "modern". It was suggested that Outlook and Word are bad > because, well, they ARE. And frankly, anyone with so much as a whit of > technical experience or know-how KNOWS that. Eh...Dave, you know some of my technical experience...And I think outlook express is such a fine program :) Microsoft programs are nice IF you know how to plug the holes AND don't use the newest software. Im using a very old Outlook Express version (no, no full outlook) and use microsoft office (2000) and windows XP. Everything works here, no viri nor problems. But of course, it happens because I have "some" technical experience with the microsoft problems. In the bottom line, I don't make judgements by the software people use, but by the work they do with then. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 14:45:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:45:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 3, 11 07:14:59 pm Message-ID: > I did enough experiments to see that I had no problems reading floppies > other than those that were recoreded near the monitor. OK. I ssume areas of the disk that were not written near the monitor were unaffected. > My guess is that it upset the bias so that it shifted the depth over time= There's nop bias (in the normal magnetic-recording sense of an HF oscillation) in disk deives (and they use DC to drive the tunnel erase head too). I wonder if somehow, in the presense of the normal write field, the alternating field from the monitor was recorfed, causing extra transition... I don;t suppose you still have such a disk? If so, it would be interesting to see what a efective track contains, both at the output of a normal floppy drive trying to read it, and as an analgoue signal at the putput of the read amplifier. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:27:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:27:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at Oct 4, 11 03:12:23 pm Message-ID: > > I have a horrible feeling I am going to regret adding my 2c to this argum= > ent. > > On 4 October 2011 14:40, Dave Caroline wrot= > e: > > You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! > > No. But getting up tight/argumentative over a trivial piece of the job > description would certainly make you a candidate. And how on earth do you decide which bits of the job desctiption (which to a scientist or engineer is equivalent to a specification) are trivial and which are not? > I had a very quick read of the job spec and while understanding the > complexity of machines quite highly rated, this is a senior role. I > would expect that report writing, project management and managing > people are equally high on the list... To the point where I would > expect the role to actually involve very little fault finding and > repairing, and a more supervision. This did not read like a job spec I didn;'t get that idea _at all_. As it askes for soldering skills and a knwoledge of TTL and ECL logic, etc I read it as being a hands-on job. I am still wondering why this is described as a 'Server Engineer' given that it appears to have little to do with what I would class as a server. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:33:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:33:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at Oct 4, 11 04:21:57 pm Message-ID: > > It is a trivial requirement but cuts me out from applying at all, it > > trumps skills I do have. And me... > > Given that the job isn't for a MS Exchange / helpdesk role, I would > interpret that requirement as, "you are expected to be able to use > email, and we use outlook." Personally, I would pay token note to this THen why isn't the job advert written this way. If I specified componets for my designs like this nothing would ever work... > but wouldn't read too much into this requirement. If I was addressing > the requirement, while being a happy gmail / eudora / insert graphical > mail application of choice user, I would refer to the fact that I Are you suggesting that somebody who has only ever used a text-based email program (as I have) is incapable of learning a grpahical one in a short time? I can't believe the concepts are that different. > > Like I said it would be a dream job but being in the wrong country for > > me I cannot apply. > > I am in Australia so I don't qualify either. > > Aside, when reviewing or writing job specifications I have never > bothered to list MS Office or a specific email client. I take it for > granted that everyone knows MS Office and can pick up an email client You;re goign to get a suprise if I or any of my friends ever apply for one of your jobs.... > quickly enough. And before anyone commits fingers to keyboards over MS > Office, I hate it too and would much rather use LaTeX. However, in my > 15 years of working history through a number of different jobs and > fields, all my company supplied PC's have had Office installed and the > expectation is that any documentation will be produced in Word. > > As for software packages in general, I find it is more useful to > concentrate on underlying skills that can be applied rather than an > ability to use a software package without the underlying knowledge. I agree. It's the concepts that matter, not knowing what menu or key shortcut to use. I object to a lot of the IT courses in UK schools which teach specifics (normlaly Office...) but not concepts. Those skills do not translate to other machines (and yes, there are other machines...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 14:22:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:22:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: <20111003162632.P76982@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 3, 11 04:28:37 pm Message-ID: > Maybe I'm cynical, but it seems to me that it is hard to DELIBERATELY > erase digital magnetic media, but easy to do it accidentally. I am sure Mr Murphy had soemthign to say about this :-) It also appears to be much easier to accidentally erase magnetic media if you don't have a backup. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:10:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:10:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> from "KJ Seefried" at Oct 4, 11 00:48:38 am Message-ID: > > I know I will regret dipping my toe in this argument, because I'll dump > some facts on very well established classiccmop groupthink, but hopeful Actaully unless you have knowledge of the selection methods at _every_ company in thw world (and I don't see how anyone can), I don;t think these really are facts... > It's the party line of course to blame HR in general and the recruiters > in particular for being "gatekeepers" and not realizing how amazing the > non-degreed candidate is. That's bullshit. The recruiters are *paid* The first problem is that some HR types are _clueless_. Some, not all, I might add. Soem fo them don't even bother to read the CV. One case sticks in my memory. I applied for a job, sending in the approrpriate stuff. They obviosuly only looked at the 'qualifications' section because thier first comment to me was 'I see you have a degree from Cambridge, I guess that meansyou're not a prectical persion'. Had they bothrered to look at the rest, tbhey would have realised that I spend much of my time with soldering iron and 'scope. Taht interview was a total waste of everyone's time as a result. The invterviewer was not a practical person and thus couldn't judge if I would be any use to the company. And some HR types don't really understnaa what the requirements actually mean. If the candidtate uses the right buzzword,s that's OK. If not, they arew ignored, even if they have the same skills/knowledge but express that fact ina differnet way. Seen thst too. [...] > candidate pool. But there's a reason we all put "BS required" in those You know, first time I read that I took BS not to mean what we call a BSc.... It's probzbly more accurate... Why can't HR people use their mother tongue in the accepted way? I guess I need to expand on that. Suppose I need a microcontrolelr for something I am designing. My first step is to make a list of the requirements and desirable features. Somethign like : Requirements : Prototyping-friendly package (DIP, SOIC, PLCC, relaively coarse pitch PQFP. Certainly not BGA). At leaat 16 digital I/O lines Executes the folloiw [...] in less than 5ms 8 bit (at least) ADC converting in <1ms Useful : Flash program memory (so I can reprogram it easily to debug my code) hardware I2C port (I can bit-bang it but I'll use the hardware if it's there) Async serial interface (ditto). And so on. Note that the 'requirements' are not flexible. You might have the most ownderful microcontroller out there but it if only comes in a BGA package I'm not consideirng it for this project. If I can't solder it I can't use it. Similarly if it doens't have an on-chip ADC I won't considert it. Why can't job specifications be the saem? If you feel a degree would indicate the right level of education, but it's not absolutle essential if the candidate can show he has the knowledge/skill in some othre way, then say so. Otherwiase, my experience is that HR types will filter out possible candidates. If you want an enginewer or scientist then such people _will_ be precise in how they read and interpret specifications. It's in their nature. It's soemthing they do all the time. Most of them are not going to do what htey consider is wasting their time applying for a job when they don't meet the lsit of 'requirements'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:40:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:40:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Oct 4, 11 06:49:27 am Message-ID: [Outlook[ > Are you kidding me? It's a stupid email program. Any drooling monkey can > learn how to use it in 10 minutes. Go download it, install it and mess > around with it for a day to see all the spiffy calendar features, etc. > Uninstall and add it to your resume'. :) AFIAK it doens't run on any hardware or operating system that I own. > > Like I said it would be a dream job but being in the wrong country for > > me I cannot apply. > > So why do you care if they require Outlook or not? Seriously? :) Becuasse this type of stupid 'requirement' -- something that any candidate who could actually do the job could learn to satisfy in an afteroon at most -- is far too common. It's not just this job I can assure you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:43:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:43:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 4, 11 11:11:35 am Message-ID: > > > In article , > Dave Caroline writes: > > > You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! > > Yes. Presuambly you feel I'm an arsehole for the same reason [1]. I now know who not to bother to look things up in my terminal/graphics system manuals for... [1] There are plenty of good reasosn for thining I'm an arsehole. Choice of e-mail program IMHO is not one of them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:24:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:24:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Oct 4, 11 07:40:14 am Message-ID: > > You really think not using outlook makes me fit the asshole category! I certainly don't :-).... Actually this raises an intereting point. Many of these programs are advertised as 'user-friendly', which would seme to imply easy to learn and use. I think it's reasonable to assume that anybody who is capable of repairing a vitage computer has some knowledge of how to use computers, even if not the specific software that they will have to use in said organisation. I therefore feel that while the software used should be mentioned (some people have an almost religious objection to certain programs...), knowledge of it should be a requiremrnt. Of course if the software is so hard to learn that such a person can't pick it up in an afternoon (at most) then perhaps the 'user-friendly' comment is misleadign advertising... > > But there's a reason we all put "BS required" in those ads, and it is > because it's a filter. It's not a have/not have filter. It's an > asshole/not asshole filter. > > This proves the job seekers view of HR, The complexity of a machines Yep > repair here is required as a primary skill, some thing as simple as > mail program can be learned or taught, it is far to trivial to be > mentioned in any job specification. Exactly. If I was going to emply an electronic designer I would not state as a requirement 'msut know how to use a Tektronix TDS... digital storage 'scope' I would require that the candidate could use common test instruments to analyse circuit operation (and woul state that just in case some people beleive that electorinc design is solely done on a CAD workstation...) but that would be it. Learing to use the instrumetns avaialbve takes an afternoon for any competent electroncis person. And no, I don't know how to use Outlook or Word or... But having sent/received e-mail for the last 25 years, having writtne several quite long docuemants on other text processing systems i am darn sure I could use said programs after reading the manuals. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 4 16:21:06 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Lance Lyon wrote: > Cheers, > > Lance > (yes - written in Outlook) > Moooom! Lance is top posting again! Make him stop! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 4 16:23:05 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 14:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > This smacks of the exact same credibility-smashing crap that Richard spewed > a few hours ago when he suggested that anyone who doesn't use Outlook is an > "asshole". > I don't think he meant "anyone", I think he was referring to a specific "someone". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 4 16:34:01 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 14:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20111004134308.U5334@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Lance Lyon wrote: > Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic proportions - and > people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be > permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything produced in > the last 30 years. Poking fun at Outhouse, Weird, WordPervert, etc. is not an epic level of negativity that warrants "stuck in the stone age" nastiness. Surely you can find something else that I've said that more correctly justifies such! I'm not stuck in the stone age; I'm stuck in the 1960s, but tolerating SOME specific "progress". Besides, they are so EASY to poke fun at, and have hilarious (as well as endearing) quirks. > This post is a perfect example : Thank you > "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular > products have been the business standard for quite a few years now and a lot > of roles are advertised that require the applicants to be proficient in > their uses. Certainly. And if one were to mandate a specific tool, in spite of the relative interchangeability of such, then they are certainly the ones that one would have no choice but to select. One can not be productive in the digital sweatshop without proficiency in them, and one needs basic competence in them to co-exist with those who use them but are not otherwise competent. > Nor should users of the products be denigrated as useless or idiots because > they use them - claiming such only proves that YOU are the foolish one. OK SHOW ME what in my "perfect example" post denigrated anybody "as useless or idiots because the use them" Are you building strawmen, or did you just not get that I explicitly pointed out that the useless idiots that I criticized were already useless idiots, totally unrelated to their choice of tools? NONE of my specific examples implied that their choices of tools was the basis of the ridicule. Attachment of a scanned picture of a memo, with incompetent Subject: and message body, can easily be done with ANY of the available tools. So can posting obviously bogus urban legends. So can falling for phishing. Outhouse and Weird simply provide very effective and useful tools for doing so. I ridiculed the rigidity of mandating one specific tool, that is barely differentiatable from the alternatives. Why be so foolish as to be offended that your preference is "being attacked" by being used as the example? YOU are being foolish by choosing to take offense at PERCEIVED criticism of your tools of choice. I may be "in the stone age", but YOU are the one who is "stuck". > These are the tools of the trade now (and despite the haters who seem to > think they are "rubbish") are rather powerful ones - especially Outlook. SHOW ME where I said any such thing. "rubbish"?? Why are YOU being such a "hater"? Your post may easily be the most hotile ad hominem nastiness so far in this discussion! > I have a fondness for Commodore 8 bit machines and have for a long time, but > you won't ever find me holding them up as the paragon of computing > experience or denigrating users of modern equipment/software in the false > belief that the tools of the trade were better 30 years ago! SHOW ME where I said, or even implied, that. 30 years ago, we had SOME tools of the trade that were WAY worse than those! Remember the quirks of Electric Pencil, and its successor Wordstar! They were epicly easy to ridicule, except that some here came along too late to learn them, or have forgotten their quirks. I love the machines of that era. I also like cars that are half a century old. I do not, at any point, claim that they would be better for the current tasks. Although I haven't figured out why I need a TeraByte and GigaHertz to read email. The useless idiot who attached the scaanned picture of the memo that he had printed out could have easily done the same with a Commodore PET, it just would have been a little slower. Remember when TRS80 V Apple2 were the mandated requirements? > Were I a newbie looking for info on older machines and had I stumbled across > this thread first I doubt I'd want to jump in and participate for fear of > the angst I'd face from the stone age "things were better" people here. "fear of the angst" that you would face. THAT'S GREAT! Yes, "things were better" in the 1960s. If you don't think so, then you weren't there. If you remember them as not being as wonderful as current times, then you weren't there. (If you think that you remember them, then maybe you weren't there!) > And to drag this back on topic, in my role (Genesys engineer), when I'm > hiring people that piece of paper that states they are a certified Genesys > professional has great importance - I would not hire someone if (a) they > didn't have it, or (b) they weren't embarked on the certification process > without some indication that they would come out the other end with the > relevant qualifications. There are times when a piece of paper is extremely > important to some roles because it shows dedication to achieving the > relevant learning for a particular role. Did you forget that I was the one that pointed out that a degree "asserts tenacity"? Or did you interpret THAT as being "negative"? You have a justifiable specific certification requirement. But, would you consider it relevant to REQUIRE Novell (sorry, "stuck in the stone age") or Microsoft certification? > Going backwards - we may all love and be passionate about our old machines > and may have learnt skills to keep our hobby alive, but those skills (ie > soldering, coding in a dead language etc) don't nec. translate into > something useful in today's computer related job market and people should > not be put down or denigrated because they don't have them. One can probably be quite adequate without such skills. After all, "Nobody solders; you can just buy a cheap new one made in China" and "Nobody programs in Assembly Language any more, nor ever will again!" > Cheers, > Lance > (yes - written in Outlook) OB_negativity: Your TOP POSTING and failure to trim, in spite of the defacto etiquette standards of this group, provided a hint. :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 16:34:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:34:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> from "Lance Lyon" at Oct 5, 11 07:19:04 am Message-ID: > > Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic proportions - and > people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be > permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything produced in > the last 30 years. Yep, and there's a darn good reason for that. Almsot nothing produced in the last 30 yerars has improved my life one bit. > > This post is a perfect example : > > "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular > products have been the business standard for quite a few years now and a lot I refucse to regard them as standards for one very good reason. They are not fully documented. The 'stnadard metre' is a standard. It's docuemtned, I can in principle recreate it at home. But just try getting enough docuemntation to fully interpret a Word file. > of roles are advertised that require the applicants to be proficient in > their uses. I fail to see why. In the case of Outlook, surely any e-mail prgram can send/receive mail that is compatible with it. Does it matter what I choose to use? It's about as sensible as saying I _must_ use a tektronix 'scope. In the case of Word, I can understnad that alas we've got in a situation whete propriatry programs are used and where you van't correctly generate or interpet the docuemtnes without using that progam. Why the world got int othat state is beyond me, but... However, I would argue that for somebody emplyed as a designer, vintage computer engineer, or whatreer, learning Word is a trivial task for them, based on what they already know. Unless said person has a religious objection to said program, it's surely better to pick the candidate who is best at reapiring vintage computers (a skill which can not be picked up in an afternoon) rather than the one who knows Word (which can). > > Nor should users of the products be denigrated as useless or idiots because > they use them - claiming such only proves that YOU are the foolish one. > > These are the tools of the trade now (and despite the haters who seem to > think they are "rubbish") are rather powerful ones - especially Outlook. I am not conviced thet would be any better than the tools I already use for the jovs I need to do now. If that changes I am nat averse to considering them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 16:43:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:43:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) In-Reply-To: <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 4, 11 04:48:05 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/04/2011 04:19 PM, Lance Lyon wrote: > > Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic proportions - and > > people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be > > permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything produced in > > the last 30 years. > > > > This post is a perfect example : > > > > "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular > > products have been the business standard for quite a few years now and a lot > > of roles are advertised that require the applicants to be proficient in > > their uses. > > "Business standard"...assuming that's even true, are you suggesting > that this is supposed to indicate a good product, or suggest that I > should use it? That's pretty silly, and awfully unprofessional. I am sure a lot more people watch 'Eastenders' than the playes of Shakespear. Is anyonr going to seriously suggest the former is better than the latter? > "Business people" love Microsoft because they think Microsoft and > Bill Gates are the same entity, and like to be associated with money and > financial success. These people typically haven't an iota of technical > know-how, and they're NOT the people who should be telling others what > tools to use to do their jobs. The main problem, actually, is that thesr tools are proprietary and you vcna't use other tools to work with them. Suppose you want a metal part made up. It matters not one bit that I turn it on my Myford lathe and you then so some more operations on it using a Colchester lathe. Provided we work to the same, agreed dimentions and tolerances it'll all be fine. But if you write a document with Woed and want me to modify it, I have to use Word too. I can't use TeX or whatver. No I am not happy about this either. > > > Nor should users of the products be denigrated as useless or idiots because > > they use them - claiming such only proves that YOU are the foolish one. > > No. Nowhere was it suggested that Outlook and Word are bad because > they're somehow "modern". It was suggested that Outlook and Word are > bad because, well, they ARE. And frankly, anyone with so much as a whit > of technical experience or know-how KNOWS that. > > Like it or not, computers are technical tools. You don't see true Well, they can be. > hard-core technical people using Outlook or Word, EVER. There's a > reason for that. Trust the opinions of people who actually know how > this stuff works and what it's supposed to do, not some plastic-haired > idiot out on the golf course who will buy anything that's advertised in > BusinessWeek magazine. I make no secret of the OS I use, the text formatter I use, etc. I will assure you that I have good reasons for choosing those based on the jobs I want to do and (to a lesser extent) the machine I want to run them on. Your requiremnts may of course differ and then it's entirely reasonable that you wil lpick a differnet solution. All I would ask is that you actually make that decision I wonder how may business types have ever seriosuly evaluated what's actually available rahter than just buying soemthing because it's from Microsoft (or whoever). -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 16:44:45 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:44:45 -0300 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, References: Message-ID: <2D84FBBEB50547D1831E2DD7B943A245@portajara> > And no, I don't know how to use Outlook or Word or... But having > sent/received e-mail for the last 25 years, having writtne several quite > long docuemants on other text processing systems i am darn sure I could > use said programs after reading the manuals. In the corporate world, there is no place for learners. Although I believe I can learn and operate faster a program than any (insert expletive here, I'm in a [expletive again] bad day), it is difficult for an (insert expletive here) HR understand that. (insert expletive here. yep, again.) Alexandre (in a [insert expletive again, you know the drill] bad day) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 16:47:25 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:47:25 -0300 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I don't think he meant "anyone", I think he was referring to a specific > "someone". :) Love is in the air... From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 16:59:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 17:59:15 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8B81B3.5080601@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 05:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I fail to see why. In the case of Outlook, surely any e-mail prgram can > send/receive mail that is compatible with it. Does it matter what I > choose to use? It's about as sensible as saying I _must_ use a tektronix > 'scope. Actually, I'd equate "you must use Outlook" with "you must use a cheap plastic Chinese 'scope". ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 17:00:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 18:00:53 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8B8215.3010802@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 05:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder how may business types have ever seriosuly evaluated what's > actually available rahter than just buying soemthing because it's from > Microsoft (or whoever). This is a joke, right? ;) In my experience, it's a big fat '0'. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 17:04:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 18:04:52 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8B8304.8050307@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 05:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I don't think he meant "anyone", I think he was referring to a >> specific "someone". :) > > Love is in the air... ROFL!!!!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Oct 4 17:07:14 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 18:07:14 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> Word has been around for almost 30 years so there is no reason why anyone should complain about its use, its also one of the easiest programs to use (up to Word 97' then after that the interface got annoyingly top heavy and insanely overpopulated, the latest revision is so ridiculously complex - plus always wants to save its default to the .docx type, it becomes garbage) but if you can use wordpad, you can use Word... Quite frankly, why we are all using Word today is it was a lot easier to use then Wordperfect which we're all talking about a program that went back to CP/M days... Outlook - eh, its got its plus' and minus' - I stop using it years ago due to all of the security flaws in it, plus it was such a slow prog and a resource hog - though now lately - Thunderbird is getting a bit sluggish and sometimes goes outta control memory usage insane... So what should we do? Go back to edlin or vi for wordprocessing? Maybe Electric Pencil? as for email, hey lets go back to uucp mail programs or maybe lets use SNDMSG, you don't like Outlook, lets go back to MS Mail.... ;-) Tony Duell wrote: >> Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic proportions - and >> people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be >> permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything produced in >> the last 30 years. >> > > Yep, and there's a darn good reason for that. Almsot nothing produced in > the last 30 yerars has improved my life one bit. > > >> This post is a perfect example : >> >> "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular >> products have been the business standard for quite a few years now and a lot >> > > I refucse to regard them as standards for one very good reason. They are > not fully documented. The 'stnadard metre' is a standard. It's > docuemtned, I can in principle recreate it at home. But just try getting > enough docuemntation to fully interpret a Word file. > > >> of roles are advertised that require the applicants to be proficient in >> their uses. >> > > I fail to see why. In the case of Outlook, surely any e-mail prgram can > send/receive mail that is compatible with it. Does it matter what I > choose to use? It's about as sensible as saying I _must_ use a tektronix > 'scope. > > In the case of Word, I can understnad that alas we've got in a situation > whete propriatry programs are used and where you van't correctly generate > or interpet the docuemtnes without using that progam. Why the world got > int othat state is beyond me, but... However, I would argue that for > somebody emplyed as a designer, vintage computer engineer, or whatreer, > learning Word is a trivial task for them, based on what they already > know. Unless said person has a religious objection to said program, it's > surely better to pick the candidate who is best at reapiring vintage > computers (a skill which can not be picked up in an afternoon) rather > than the one who knows Word (which can). > > >> Nor should users of the products be denigrated as useless or idiots because >> they use them - claiming such only proves that YOU are the foolish one. >> >> These are the tools of the trade now (and despite the haters who seem to >> think they are "rubbish") are rather powerful ones - especially Outlook. >> > > I am not conviced thet would be any better than the tools I already use > for the jovs I need to do now. If that changes I am nat averse to > considering them. > > -tony > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 17:12:02 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 23:12:02 +0100 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <2D84FBBEB50547D1831E2DD7B943A245@portajara> References: <2D84FBBEB50547D1831E2DD7B943A245@portajara> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> And no, I don't know how to use Outlook or Word or... But having >> sent/received e-mail for the last 25 years, having writtne several quite >> long docuemants on other text processing systems i am darn sure I could >> use said programs after reading the manuals. > > ? In the corporate world, there is no place for learners. Although I believe The very nature of a job in the museum world dealing with old machines requires a learning ability and more importantly relearning old skills as befitting a machine of its age. Its one of the reasons for my personal library. After 40 years volunteering in various museums and archives I know this "learning" is continuous and required. > I can learn and operate faster a program than any (insert expletive here, > I'm in a [expletive again] bad day), it is difficult for an (insert > expletive here) HR understand that. > > ? (insert expletive here. yep, again.) > ? Alexandre (in a [insert expletive again, you know the drill] bad day) > Dave Caroline From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 17:17:27 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:17:27 -0300 Subject: Getting further ot, References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> > Outlook - eh, its got its plus' and minus' - I stop using it years ago due > to all of the security flaws in it, plus it was such a slow prog and a > resource hog - though now lately - Thunderbird is getting a bit sluggish > and sometimes goes outta control memory usage insane... I was planning to go to thunderbird, but I didn't know it is such a resource hog. Is there a good option for mail program? I loved calypso...THAT was such a good mail program (anyone remember eudora? :D) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 17:36:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 18:36:28 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> Message-ID: <4E8B8A6C.6060008@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 06:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I was planning to go to thunderbird, but I didn't know it is such a > resource hog. Recent releases have fixed that pretty well; response time is pretty much instantaneous for most operations. (for me at least, and I have GIGANTIC mail spools) > (anyone remember eudora? :D) Trying really hart not to. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 4 17:48:00 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 15:48:00 -0700 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I don;t > Soem fo > approrpriate > obviosuly > thier > meansyou're not a prectical persion'. > bothrered > tbhey > Taht > invterviewer > understnaa > candidtate > buzzword,s > arew > ina differnet > thst > probzbly > folloiw > microcontrolelr > Somethign > leaat > saem > absolutle > ownderful > othre > doens't > considert > Otherwiase > enginewer > soemthing > htey > lsit On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell also wrote: > Why can't HR people use their mother tongue in the accepted way? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 17:51:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 18:51:01 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8B8A6C.6060008@neurotica.com> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> <4E8B8A6C.6060008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8B8DD5.3050206@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 06:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/04/2011 06:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I was planning to go to thunderbird, but I didn't know it is such a >> resource hog. > > Recent releases have fixed that pretty well; response time is pretty > much instantaneous for most operations. (for me at least, and I have > GIGANTIC mail spools) > >> (anyone remember eudora? :D) > > Trying really hart not to. s/hart/hard/ -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From schoedel at kw.igs.net Tue Oct 4 18:08:18 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:08:18 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> Message-ID: At 7:17 pm -0300 2011/10/04, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > (anyone remember eudora? :D) *Remember* Eudora? It's one very big reason I'm not moving past OS X 10.6, at least unless and until Mailforge gets its act together. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 4 18:19:39 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > [long list of typos], all of which are "lysdexia", adjacent keys, etc. none of which are homonym substitutions, or lack of understanding of correct word(s) (no "their" v "they're", "to" v "too", etc.) > On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell also wrote: > > Why can't HR people use their mother tongue in the accepted way? Surely NONE of those errors would have ever occured if he were to be using Outlook! From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 4 18:33:40 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:33:40 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20111004233340.GC11566@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Curt @ Atari Museum once stated: > Word has been around for almost 30 years so there is no reason why > anyone should complain about its use, its also one of the easiest > programs to use (up to Word 97' then after that the interface got > annoyingly top heavy and insanely overpopulated, the latest revision is > so ridiculously complex - plus always wants to save its default to the > .docx type, it becomes garbage) but if you can use wordpad, you can use > Word... Quite frankly, why we are all using Word today is it was a > lot easier to use then Wordperfect which we're all talking about a > program that went back to CP/M days... It's perhaps apocryphal, but I heard that the university I attended in the early 90s now require students in the Computer Science and Engineering department to submit their soure code in Microsoft Word format. I'd like to think that's not true, but given that I know for a fact they got rid of the Unix work stations in favor of Microsoft based work stations, and they no longer run their own email server (the IT department of the Univeristy [1] took over that role) I don't find it hard to believe. It's funny though, that the company I work for is a heavy user of Microsoft products, yet our division (or office) *no one* uses Microsoft Windows. Easy to see why when all our software needs to run under Solaris. Everyone at our office uses either a Mac or a Linux laptop. -spc (basically, the laptops are there to log into the Solaris boxes) From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 4 19:07:56 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:07:56 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20111005000756.GD11566@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Lance Lyon once stated: > > And to drag this back on topic, in my role (Genesys engineer), when I'm > hiring people that piece of paper that states they are a certified Genesys > professional has great importance - I would not hire someone if (a) they > didn't have it, or (b) they weren't embarked on the certification process > without some indication that they would come out the other end with the > relevant qualifications. There are times when a piece of paper is extremely > important to some roles because it shows dedication to achieving the > relevant learning for a particular role. This reminds of of the time around 1998 when companies were trying to hire Java programmers with five years of experience. That would be a neat trick, since in 1998, there were only a few people *in the world* that could claim five years experience with Java (and they all worked for Sun). This also reminds me of the time a friend of mine (mid to late 90s) was trying to hire some programmers. Several were brought into the office for an interview (his company developed and sold X server software, so the position was a C developer with some hardware experience). Only *one*, out of perhaps a half dozen canidates, could even implement a simple program to read in a list of numbers into a linked list. All the candidates had that damnable piece of paper called a "degree" from a "university". > Going backwards - we may all love and be passionate about our old machines > and may have learnt skills to keep our hobby alive, but those skills (ie > soldering, coding in a dead language etc) don't nec. translate into > something useful in today's computer related job market and people should > not be put down or denigrated because they don't have them. I beg to differ. Racter [1] was a *very* interesting piece of software, refering to both the program and the compiler used to generate the program. It has pattern matching subroutine calls (similar to functional langauges that pattern match on parameters) but it goes beyond that to mind-blowing proportions. Cornerstone was also an interesting IDE/compiler---human readable identifiers actually pointed to internal identifiers. Change the name of a varible in one location, and *all* other locations in the source code would be updated with the new name. I think Elipse can do similar stuff, but it doesn't have quite the same indirection that Cornerstone did. The TREE-META system [2] (late 60s/very early 70s) is also something worth looking into. A mix between lex (for parsing tokens), yacc (parsing languages) with the ability to manipulate the abstract syntax tree being built, all in the same file. It's predecesor, META-II, was a self-compiling lex/yacc program [3][4]. Heck, I've had my mind blown with reading about the VAX CALLS and CALLG instructions that's had a profound influence on how I view programming that I'm still playing around with. Going backwards *can* translate into something use for today's computer related job market. I've just been fortunate enough to see it. -spc (Oh, and the current trend of VMs? IBM was doing that in the 60s) [1] There are only two pages I'm aware of that have *any* technical information on the compiler. They are: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/racterfaq.html http://boston.conman.org/2008/06/18.2 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TREE-META And I would very much like a reference to the bit about "TREE-META was the last of a line of metacompilers, starting with META II, right before subsequent versions were designated classified technology by the U.S. military and government agencies." [3] Yes, it's a type of chicken-egg problem, but I was able to compile and run the code with 240 lines of Lua and 500 lines of C. The META-II source code itself is only 27 lines of META-II code. It's pretty much a replacement for lex and yacc in less than 800 lines of code. [4] The Mother Of All Demos was written in META-II. And it's only now, 42 years later, that we duplicate the Mother Of All Demos. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 4 19:09:57 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:09:57 -0500 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 17:47 -0500 10/4/11, Tony wrote: >In the case of Word, I can understnad that alas we've got in a situation >whete propriatry programs are used and where you van't correctly generate >or interpet the docuemtnes without using that progam. Not entirely true. In my case (Mac OS X.4 on a PowerPC laptop), OpenOffice actually does a better job opening new .docx files than MicroSoft's own OpenXML converter and Word X (as in, doesn't crash). That still may not help you out, Tony. I think OpenOffice has reasonably steep platform requirements too, but at least it is open source and does a reasonable job untangling Word's formats. At 17:47 -0500 10/4/11, Alexandre wrote: > (anyone remember eudora? :D) Love it! Using it to write this. I'm somewhat worried about consequently falling into the "asshole" category, but not enough so to change... -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 4 19:11:04 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:11:04 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: References: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20111005001103.GE11566@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > I fail to see why. In the case of Outlook, surely any e-mail prgram can > send/receive mail that is compatible with it. Does it matter what I > choose to use? It's about as sensible as saying I _must_ use a tektronix > 'scope. To be fair, there is *one* feature of Lookout that not many other e-mail programs support---that is, the ability of managers to schedule your time in meetings and update your calendar automatically. -spc (I refuse to install Outlook on any of my computers, so I use the web interface for work ... ) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 4 19:14:41 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 20:14:41 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> Message-ID: <4E8BA171.40202@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/10/11 6:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Outlook - eh, its got its plus' and minus' - I stop using it years ago >> due to all of the security flaws in it, plus it was such a slow prog >> and a resource hog - though now lately - Thunderbird is getting a bit >> sluggish and sometimes goes outta control memory usage insane... > I don't have any memory problems with T'bird on OS X PowerPC 10.4/10.5 (741MB inbox, 6.7GB total mail). But I do think the UI needs refreshing desperately. --Toby > I was planning to go to thunderbird, but I didn't know it is such a > resource hog. Is there a good option for mail program? I loved > calypso...THAT was such a good mail program > > (anyone remember eudora? :D) > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 4 19:16:14 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 20:16:14 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E8BA1CE.1010601@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/10/11 6:07 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Word has been around for almost 30 years so there is no reason why > anyone should complain about its use, its also one of the easiest > programs to use (up to Word 97' then after that the interface got > annoyingly top heavy and insanely overpopulated, the latest revision is > so ridiculously complex - plus always wants to save its default to the > .docx type, it becomes garbage) but if you can use wordpad, you can use > Word... Quite frankly, why we are all using Word today is it was a lot > easier to use then Wordperfect which we're all talking about a program > that went back to CP/M days... > > Outlook - eh, its got its plus' and minus' - I stop using it years ago > due to all of the security flaws in it, plus it was such a slow prog and > a resource hog - though now lately - Thunderbird is getting a bit > sluggish and sometimes goes outta control memory usage insane... > > So what should we do? Go back to edlin or vi for wordprocessing? Maybe > Electric Pencil? as for email, hey lets go back to uucp mail programs or > maybe lets use SNDMSG, you don't like Outlook, lets go back to MS Mail.... > ;-) > No, that's an over-reaction. All we need to do is get rid of Microshit. All of it. There are always sane alternatives. --Toby > > > Tony Duell wrote: >>> Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic >>> proportions - and >>> people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be >>> permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything >>> produced in >>> the last 30 years. >> >> Yep, and there's a darn good reason for that. Almsot nothing produced >> in the last 30 yerars has improved my life one bit. >> >>> This post is a perfect example : >>> >>> "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular >>> products have been the business standard for quite a few years now >>> and a lot >> >> I refucse to regard them as standards for one very good reason. They >> are not fully documented. The 'stnadard metre' is a standard. It's >> docuemtned, I can in principle recreate it at home. But just try >> getting enough docuemntation to fully interpret a Word file. >>... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 19:28:40 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:28:40 -0300 Subject: Getting further ot, References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> <4E8BA171.40202@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <173F957EA59C4871A51CECC54D425BED@portajara> > I don't have any memory problems with T'bird on OS X PowerPC 10.4/10.5 > (741MB inbox, 6.7GB total mail). But I do think the UI needs refreshing > desperately. more than 10GB is ONE of my folders... From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Oct 4 19:39:37 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 17:39:37 -0700 Subject: In summary... Message-ID: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> So. 75 new mails in the cctalk folder since I checked my mail this morning: - Sometimes people on eBay are not honest. Sometimes people overreact to this. Sometimes people overreact to the overreaction. - Your college degree doesn't mean much. Or it means something. Maybe. Regardless, a BS is a foot in the door / waste of time / stupid requirement / very useful / a floor wax / a dessert topping / a communist plot. (Choose only 2.) - Sometimes hiring practices are suboptimal or unfair. Especially in the corporate world. This is because HR departments are full of stupid-heads who refuse to acknowledge your greatness. - No one intelligent (er, "truly hard core") uses or buys Microsoft products, EVER. (EVER!) - Mail readers exist. Some are better than others, possibly. Sometimes you can even use them to do stupid things! - Nothing made in the last 30 years has improved Tony's life one iota. (Not even self-adhesive stamps?! But they're so handy!) - Hey, did you hear that HR people / managers are stupid? - Thunderbird sucks / no it's ok! - Some people have axes to grind with other people. - Did you know that if you replace "soft" with "shit" in the name of a certain large software company, it makes people take you seriously? (It's true!) - Some nonsense about some old HP computer thing. What the hell is *that* discussion doing here? Can we... maybe discuss old computers again? Pleeeeeeeze? Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... - Josh From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 4 19:55:35 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 20:55:35 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <173F957EA59C4871A51CECC54D425BED@portajara> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> <4E8BA171.40202@telegraphics.com.au> <173F957EA59C4871A51CECC54D425BED@portajara> Message-ID: <4E8BAB07.5040207@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/10/11 8:28 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I don't have any memory problems with T'bird on OS X PowerPC 10.4/10.5 >> (741MB inbox, 6.7GB total mail). But I do think the UI needs >> refreshing desperately. > > more than 10GB is ONE of my folders... > Is that folder where the memory problems arise? --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 4 19:59:05 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 20:59:05 -0400 Subject: In summary... In-Reply-To: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E8BABD9.4090108@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/10/11 8:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > So. 75 new mails in the cctalk folder since I checked my mail this morning: > > - Sometimes people on eBay are not honest. Sometimes people overreact to > this. Sometimes people overreact to the overreaction. > - Your college degree doesn't mean much. Or it means something. Maybe. > Regardless, a BS is a foot in the door / waste of time / stupid > requirement / very useful / a floor wax / a dessert topping / a > communist plot. (Choose only 2.) > - Sometimes hiring practices are suboptimal or unfair. Especially in the > corporate world. This is because HR departments are full of stupid-heads > who refuse to acknowledge your greatness. > - No one intelligent (er, "truly hard core") uses or buys Microsoft > products, EVER. (EVER!) > - Mail readers exist. Some are better than others, possibly. Sometimes > you can even use them to do stupid things! > - Nothing made in the last 30 years has improved Tony's life one iota. > (Not even self-adhesive stamps?! But they're so handy!) > - Hey, did you hear that HR people / managers are stupid? > - Thunderbird sucks / no it's ok! > - Some people have axes to grind with other people. > - Did you know that if you replace "soft" with "shit" in the name of a > certain large software company, No, no, you jumped to conclusions. To be perfectly clear I meant _Microshit Inc.,_ the makers of strangely popular yet widely disliked (hmmmm) software. Lest there be any further confusion, their stock ticker is SHIT. --Toby > it makes people take you seriously? > (It's true!) > - Some nonsense about some old HP computer thing. What the hell is > *that* discussion doing here? > > Can we... maybe discuss old computers again? Pleeeeeeeze? > > Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power brick > suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power > bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working > OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... > > - Josh > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 20:16:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 21:16:30 -0400 Subject: In summary... In-Reply-To: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E8BAFEE.5060109@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 08:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > - No one intelligent (er, "truly hard core") uses or buys Microsoft > products, EVER. (EVER!) Present company very, very much excluded of course, as usual. > Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power brick > suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power > bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working > OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... Are they openable? I don't have one in front of me, and I don't think I've ever looked. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 20:19:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 21:19:09 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <20111005001103.GE11566@brevard.conman.org> References: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <20111005001103.GE11566@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4E8BB08D.70602@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 08:11 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > To be fair, there is *one* feature of Lookout that not many other e-mail > programs support---that is, the ability of managers to schedule your time in > meetings and update your calendar automatically. That sounds like an excellent reason NOT to use it. Further, there are lots of calendaring solutions out there. Further yet, WTF does that have to do with EMAIL?! Lack of product purpose focus is hardly the exclusive domain of Microsoft, heck look at iTunes which does EVERYTHING now...and if you try hard enough, it'll actually play mp3s...but calendaring built into an email client is pretty silly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 20:33:15 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 21:33:15 -0400 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience Message-ID: Wow! classiccmp is now recreating the USENET experience of the mid-90s! Pass the popcorn! -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem1 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Oct 4 21:08:40 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 19:08:40 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Power Brick (was Re: In summary...) In-Reply-To: <4E8BAFEE.5060109@neurotica.com> References: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> <4E8BAFEE.5060109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8BBC28.2050607@mail.msu.edu> On 10/4/2011 6:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power brick >> suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power >> bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working >> OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... > > Are they openable? I don't have one in front of me, and I don't > think I've ever looked. Now that I take a closer look at it, it does look like it might be possible to open it (it appears to be hollow, unlike the C64 supplies which are solid blocks). No screws that I can find, looks like there's a bottom plate that's glued to the rest of the case. I might try carefully prying it open, hopefully it won't crack in the process... - Josh > > -Dave > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 21:28:34 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. These arguments suck and it's the same people over and over again.. I think it's time to just add the users to the filter ----- Original Message ----- From: Joachim Thiemann To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 9:33 PM Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience Wow! classiccmp is now recreating the USENET experience of the mid-90s! Pass the popcorn! -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem1 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 4 21:37:59 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 19:37:59 -0700 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> References: <1317698786.83275.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8A8599.1020207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E8BC307.3070405@bitsavers.org> On 10/3/11 9:03 PM, leaknoil wrote: > What is in the gas tank ? helium From fryers at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 21:39:02 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:39:02 +0800 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5 October 2011 10:28, Christian Liendo wrote: > Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. Oooo. Pictures of computers without their panels on! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 4 21:43:13 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 19:43:13 -0700 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8BC441.7020502@bitsavers.org> On 10/4/11 6:33 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Wow! classiccmp is now recreating the USENET experience of the mid-90s! > it never stopped in alt.folklore.computers From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 4 21:59:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In summary... In-Reply-To: <4E8BAFEE.5060109@neurotica.com> References: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> <4E8BAFEE.5060109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111004195351.G5334@shell.lmi.net> > Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power brick > suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power > bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working > OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... > Are they openable? I don't have one in front of me, and I don't > think I've ever looked. Anything CAN be opened. Although there are better ways, the most popular way was to decelerate it with a hard surface, such as a wall or floor. A lot were opened on failure at the 5th West Coast Computer Faire. The usual repair was replacing the fuse. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 4 22:10:35 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Christian Liendo wrote: > Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. I'll just leave this right here: http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 22:30:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:30:42 -0400 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E8BCF62.2030606@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2011 11:10 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. > > I'll just leave this right here: > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html You're a mean, bad man. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 4 22:46:41 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 22:46:41 -0500 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8B8A6C.6060008@neurotica.com> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> <4E8B8A6C.6060008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110050353.p953retA050762@billy.ezwind.net> At 05:36 PM 10/4/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Recent releases have fixed that pretty well; response time is pretty much instantaneous for most operations. (for me at least, and I have GIGANTIC mail spools) > >>(anyone remember eudora? :D) > > Trying really hard not to. Oh, I'm still stuck in Eudora 7.1.0.9 (Windows circa 2006). I tried to import my ~8 gig of mailboxes into Thunderbird a year or two ago but it did not seem to be able to handle it. Maybe it was all the attachments and the way Eudora handled "embedded" objects in HTML-ish email. - John From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 4 23:21:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 21:21:03 -0700 Subject: In summary... In-Reply-To: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E8B78BF.31390.2A3F0A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Oct 2011 at 17:39, Josh Dersch wrote: > Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power > brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 > power bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to > be working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... Easy enough to open. I prefer using a rawhide mallet of the sort used by jewelers. Just go round and round, tapping firmly on the seam between the halves. Eventually, the thing just comes apart-- with no broken pieces. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 4 23:26:18 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 22:26:18 -0600 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E8BDC6A.9040503@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/4/2011 9:10 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Christian Liendo wrote: > >> Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. > > I'll just leave this right here: > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > Arg!!! BTW what is the device he is making love to? Ben. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Oct 4 23:33:23 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 21:33:23 -0700 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: <4E8BDC6A.9040503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8BDC6A.9040503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E8BDE13.20804@mail.msu.edu> On 10/4/2011 9:26 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/4/2011 9:10 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Christian Liendo wrote: >> >>> Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. >> >> I'll just leave this right here: >> >> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >> > Arg!!! BTW what is the device he is making love to? > Ben. > It's an XQJ-37 Nuclear-Powered Pansexual Roto-Plooker. - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 4 23:33:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 00:33:54 -0400 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: <4E8BDC6A.9040503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8BDC6A.9040503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E8BDE32.7010908@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2011 12:26 AM, ben wrote: >>> Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. >> >> I'll just leave this right here: >> >> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >> > Arg!!! BTW what is the device he is making love to? A DEC PDP-11/34 with two RL-series drives. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Oct 4 23:36:18 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 21:36:18 -0700 Subject: In summary... In-Reply-To: <4E8B78BF.31390.2A3F0A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> <4E8B78BF.31390.2A3F0A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E8BDEC2.2090500@mail.msu.edu> On 10/4/2011 9:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Oct 2011 at 17:39, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power >> brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 >> power bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to >> be working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... > Easy enough to open. I prefer using a rawhide mallet of the sort > used by jewelers. Just go round and round, tapping firmly on the > seam between the halves. Eventually, the thing just comes apart-- > with no broken pieces. > > --Chuck > Yep, coincidentally enough I just got done doing approximately the same thing you just described, and it came apart with no major trouble. Inside there's a transformer connected to a small PCB with a fuse and a pair of diodes. No capacitors, so I suspect there's not a great deal that can go wrong with it. Good to know. Now to dig out my cassettes... :) - Josh From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 5 00:50:15 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 22:50:15 -0700 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <4E8BDEC2.2090500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, and locked the damn thing and took the key :( Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 00:46:20 2011 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 01:46:20 -0400 Subject: how much current does a G3 iMac pull? Message-ID: Does anyone know about how many amps a G3 CRT iMac draws? More specifically, I am talking about a 600MHz G3 model with Airport. Thanks Joe From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 5 00:46:11 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 22:46:11 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Power Brick (was Re: In summary...) In-Reply-To: <4E8BBC28.2050607@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 10/4/11 7:08 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > On 10/4/2011 6:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> >>> Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power brick >>> suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power >>> bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be working >>> OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... >> >> Are they openable? I don't have one in front of me, and I don't >> think I've ever looked. > > Now that I take a closer look at it, it does look like it might be > possible to open it (it appears to be hollow, unlike the C64 supplies > which are solid blocks). No screws that I can find, looks like there's > a bottom plate that's glued to the rest of the case. I might try > carefully prying it open, hopefully it won't crack in the process... > > - Josh > >> >> -Dave Some of them were able to be opened, there were hidden screws in the bottom of some, there were also some that were 2 piece plastic heat-fused? Or glued together. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 5 00:38:16 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (jdr_use at bluewin.ch) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 05:38:16 +0000 (GMT+00:00) Subject: AW: Re: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: <4E8BDE32.7010908@neurotica.com> References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8BDC6A.9040503@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E8BDE32.7010908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <26458297.5281317793096509.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> >> Arg!!! BTW what is the device he is making love to? > A DEC PDP-11/34 with two RL-series drives. Then my PDP- 11/34 with 2 RL drives must feel pretty lonely...... Jos From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 5 00:34:05 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 22:34:05 -0700 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 10/4/11 3:07 PM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Word has been around for almost 30 years so there is no reason why > anyone should complain about its use, its also one of the easiest > programs to use (up to Word 97' then after that the interface got > annoyingly top heavy and insanely overpopulated, the latest revision is > so ridiculously complex - plus always wants to save its default to the > .docx type, it becomes garbage) but if you can use wordpad, you can use > Word... Quite frankly, why we are all using Word today is it was a > lot easier to use then Wordperfect which we're all talking about a > program that went back to CP/M days... I remember a gag textfile on the kamasutra of wordperfect. Some of the keystroke combos were byzantine IIRC. > Outlook - eh, its got its plus' and minus' - I stop using it years ago > due to all of the security flaws in it, plus it was such a slow prog and > a resource hog - though now lately - Thunderbird is getting a bit > sluggish and sometimes goes outta control memory usage insane... I use outlook when I am at an employer that requires it. My last gig was at a fortune 5 (or 10, I forget exactly) and the corporate standard was outlook under windows xp. However our group had a lot of intel macintoshes, and we were using Entorage (while it can be unstable with certain embedded javascript) it is far less likely to corrupt it's own mailstore. The corporate helpdesk unilaterally implemented a forced reboot every 24 hours for windows machines, and the way they did it did not allow outlook to close gracefully, it regularly corrupted the PST file for outlook, and for those of us who had to work remote after hours or on weekends, until we installed a ssh host on the windows boxes it was quite common for us to not be able to get onto the machines when they were forcibly rebooted (remote access service does not always restart when XP reboots, sometimes you actually have to log into the console of the machine to get it working) > So what should we do? Go back to edlin or vi for wordprocessing? > Maybe Electric Pencil? as for email, hey lets go back to uucp mail > programs or maybe lets use SNDMSG, you don't like Outlook, lets go back > to MS Mail.... > > ;-) From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 01:08:52 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 17:08:52 +1100 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Power Brick (was Re: In summary...) In-Reply-To: References: <4E8BBC28.2050607@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Some of them were able to be opened, there were hidden screws in the bottom > of some, ?there were also some that were 2 piece plastic heat-fused? Or > glued together. Does anyone know if the technique of tapping along the seam will work with the Apple //c brick power supply? which to me shows no sign of hidden screws and looks to me "almost" seamless. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 01:11:43 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:11:43 +0100 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: <4E8BDEC2.2090500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 6:50 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > -sigh- ?need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, > and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > > Any suggestions??? ?I'd like to not damage the case if possible. > > > A good locksmith can pick the lock for you probably A picture of the lock barrel that is used in these may help I have sometimes made skeleton keys to get into stuff, then taken the barrel/whatever lock design apart then made a suitable key. One I swapped the pins to fit a key I had. Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 5 01:14:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:14:02 -0700 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: <4E8BDEC2.2090500@mail.msu.edu>, Message-ID: <4E8B933A.1522.30B5FD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Oct 2011 at 22:50, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be > funny, and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > > Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. I don't think that the stock 5170 ever had a case lock. You might have one with a gray trim plate on the back covering up all the screws, but you just pry that gently off. That lock in the front of the machine is for locking out the keyboard. Once you've got the system open, just disconnect the leads that go to the motherboard and you're in business. If you have some aftermarket lock, drill the bugger out with a nice tough cobalt drill bit. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 5 01:21:20 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 23:21:20 -0700 Subject: how much current does a G3 iMac pull? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Oct 4, at 10:46 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Does anyone know about how many amps a G3 CRT iMac draws? More > specifically, > I am talking about a 600MHz G3 model with Airport. Looking at the bottom of the 400 MHz one here, the label says: 100-240V~, 2.5-1.25 A / 120W max, 50-60 Hz Which I would take to mean: 2.5 A @ 100 V 1.25A @ 240 V interpolate in-between From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 5 01:32:39 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 23:32:39 -0700 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Oct 4, at 4:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> [long list of typos], > all of which are "lysdexia", adjacent keys, etc. none of which are > homonym substitutions, or lack of understanding of correct word(s) (no > "their" v "they're", "to" v "too", etc.) Most of them, not all of them. Regardless, it's not an excuse. I hit adjacent keys in the wrong order a lot too, but I make an effort to correct them before hitting send. The writer can't be bothered to take a few seconds to correct his typos, the result is 100's/1000's of readers have to waste time stumbling over interpreting his message(s). I'm not being anal - it's casual email conversation, not a thesis, and much of it can glossed over - but there is a point past which it is an insult to the reader. This is much the same as the recent criticisms of tortured grammar. The writer is basically saying his time is more important than the readers' time. If you're writing notes to yourself, do whatever you want. If you're intending to communicate to others: language has rules for a reason. >> On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell also wrote: >>> Why can't HR people use their mother tongue in the accepted way? > > Surely NONE of those errors would have ever occured if he were to be > using > Outlook! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 01:35:30 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 02:35:30 -0400 Subject: auction photos (was Re: The Commodore 65) In-Reply-To: <4E8AAEDD.3070700@brouhaha.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> <4E8AAEDD.3070700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > If an auction listing has a picture, and the picture isn't the actual item, > there should be an explicit statement of that fact. No, there is no requirement for this, nor does there need to be. There is plenty of legal precedence with Implied Warranties (in the US, anyway). As long as any variations are insignificant (the UCC calls it "standard tolerances" or something), everything is legal and above the table. Think of the legal mess there would be if this was not the case. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 05:18:48 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:18:48 -0300 Subject: Power brick repair References: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power > brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power > bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be > working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... What about using a PC PSU in its place? :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 05:19:11 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:19:11 -0300 Subject: Getting further ot, References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> <4E8BA171.40202@telegraphics.com.au> <173F957EA59C4871A51CECC54D425BED@portajara> <4E8BAB07.5040207@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0F472AEFD6A34F68BD85E646225E8B6B@portajara> >> more than 10GB is ONE of my folders... > Is that folder where the memory problems arise? No, there are bigger folders... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 05:21:37 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:21:37 -0300 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <22CBC75525594CADB43366646BB7F1A3@portajara> > Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. Photos of open vax? :oD From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 05:25:20 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:25:20 -0300 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8BDC6A.9040503@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E8BDE13.20804@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5C7A6D1695274A348D3B01AA3AF9CA19@portajara> >> Arg!!! BTW what is the device he is making love to? > It's an XQJ-37 Nuclear-Powered Pansexual Roto-Plooker. Pansexual? I though it was an exclusivity of a brazilian rocker called "Serguei" :oD http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serguei http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexualidade (google translator is your friend) :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 05:22:18 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:22:18 -0300 Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <017343C52688412B834B569DC524EFD2@portajara> >> Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. > I'll just leave this right here: > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html NO! PLEASE! NO AGAIN! :oO From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 05:21:05 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:21:05 -0300 Subject: Getting further ot, References: <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <20111005001103.GE11566@brevard.conman.org> <4E8BB08D.70602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7C1CEFEBB5E242E283D7E6531C9D4852@portajara> > Further yet, WTF does that have to do with EMAIL?! Lack of product > purpose focus is hardly the exclusive domain of Microsoft, heck look at > iTunes which does EVERYTHING now...and if you try hard enough, it'll > actually play mp3s...but calendaring built into an email client is pretty > silly. I think outlook integration is such a nice thing, and iTunes play nicely my MP3, just takes some time to load. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 5 08:10:36 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 09:10:36 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <0F472AEFD6A34F68BD85E646225E8B6B@portajara> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> <4E8BA171.40202@telegraphics.com.au> <173F957EA59C4871A51CECC54D425BED@portajara> <4E8BAB07.5040207@telegraphics.com.au> <0F472AEFD6A34F68BD85E646225E8B6B@portajara> Message-ID: <4E8C574C.3030303@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/10/11 6:19 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> more than 10GB is ONE of my folders... >> Is that folder where the memory problems arise? > > No, there are bigger folders... > Sure, but is the memory issue correlated with folder size? How much testing have you done? --T From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 5 08:53:04 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 06:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: <4E8BCF62.2030606@neurotica.com> References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8BCF62.2030606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/04/2011 11:10 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. >> >> I'll just leave this right here: >> >> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > > You're a mean, bad man. > You're just jealous you didn't think of it first. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 5 08:54:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 06:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: <4E8BDE32.7010908@neurotica.com> References: <1317781714.12409.YahooMailNeo@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E8BDC6A.9040503@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E8BDE32.7010908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2011 12:26 AM, ben wrote: >>>> Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. >>> >>> I'll just leave this right here: >>> >>> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >>> >> Arg!!! BTW what is the device he is making love to? > > A DEC PDP-11/34 with two RL-series drives. > With Mod 1, Nude Dork side-car processor apparently. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 5 08:56:16 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 06:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, > and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > > Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. > Open the case and unplug the keylock from the motherboard. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Oct 5 09:12:37 2011 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Model I Power Brick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1317823957.48210.YahooMailNeo@web161919.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> You can indeed open up the Model I bricks and repair them. A frequent failure mode is a fuse inside the case that blows out. My friend had one blow out, and he cracked it open, drilled a hole for a fuse holder and replaced the fuse. It's a pretty simple power supply to build a replacement for. There's a schematic on the Yahoo! TRS-80 group files section for an Australian 240v version which could be adapted to make a 110v version. The service manual is out there (Tandy and SAMS) which should have schematic as well. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Oct 5 09:18:12 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:18:12 -0700 Subject: shipping magnetics In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 3, 11 07:14:59 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: shipping magnetics > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:45:03 +0100 > > > I did enough experiments to see that I had no problems reading floppies > > other than those that were recoreded near the monitor. > > OK. I ssume areas of the disk that were not written near the monitor were > unaffected. > > > My guess is that it upset the bias so that it shifted the depth over time= > > There's nop bias (in the normal magnetic-recording sense of an HF > oscillation) in disk deives (and they use DC to drive the tunnel erase > head too). I wonder if somehow, in the presense of the normal write > field, the alternating field from the monitor was recorfed, causing extra > transition... > > I don;t suppose you still have such a disk? If so, it would be > interesting to see what a efective track contains, both at the output of > a normal floppy drive trying to read it, and as an analgoue signal at the > putput of the read amplifier. > > -tony Hi Tony No, once I determined the problem, I moved the monitor away and reformatted the disk. I didn't means a bias signal, I was thinking more a magnetic offset to the signal. Dwight From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Oct 5 09:34:21 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:34:21 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <201110050353.p953retA050762@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> <5053BB1F9FA1466BBE6DFFF578B86922@portajara> <4E8B8A6C.6060008@neurotica.com> <201110050353.p953retA050762@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E8C6AED.90901@verizon.net> On 10/4/2011 11:46 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 05:36 PM 10/4/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Recent releases have fixed that pretty well; response time is pretty much instantaneous for most operations. (for me at least, and I have GIGANTIC mail spools) >> >>> (anyone remember eudora? :D) >> >> Trying really hard not to. > > Oh, I'm still stuck in Eudora 7.1.0.9 (Windows circa 2006). I tried to import > my ~8 gig of mailboxes into Thunderbird a year or two ago but it did not > seem to be able to handle it. Maybe it was all the attachments and the > way Eudora handled "embedded" objects in HTML-ish email. > > - John I used Eudora for a long time. I made the switch to Thunderbird quite some time ago, and was able to import my email fine. I'm sure I looked to see what Thunderbird could import and exported from Eudora in that format. Attachments are important to me too, and worked as it should. Thunderbird is better now than it was, but it is still a memory hog. It's consuming 125 megs on my machine right now. No clue why it would need even half of that. Keith From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 12:21:15 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:21:15 -0400 Subject: Dissolving a collection: bits for sale, including books Message-ID: Hello everyone, anticipating a move across the Atlantic in the near future, I decided to start selling a large part of my collection. I'm still adding things on occasion, but I would guess that mostly the books might be of interest to folks here. I've put the list(s) up here: http://sites.google.com/site/oldcomputerbitsforsale/home I would of course prefer is someone local can grab the stuff, but I am willing to mail things. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem1 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 12:25:06 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111005092804.S39258@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, > and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. >From your question, I will have to assume that you do not have the skill to pick the lock. Ace keys can be fairly easily picked with the right tool - it doesn't take much knowledge of the workings of those locks to design a tube with numerous sliding pins. http://www.pro-lok.com/pc-288-79-pkx-a1-7-pin-tubular-ace-pick.aspx http://hawleylocksupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HLS&Product_Code=-TU-7&Category_Code=TAE (Is yours 7 pin?) http://hawleylocksupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HLS&Product_Code=A1S-20-SET&Category_Code= You could pay a locksmith to pick it for you. They might laugh. Particularly if they are young enough to not realize that the 5170 had a REAL lock, V the latch that looks like such a lock on cheap generic ATs. (In which case, negotiate a flat rate before starting) BUT, since you can carry it in and set it on the counter, you will be paying "bench" rates. Does yours have a 4 to 6 digit number on the face of the lock? If so, a good locksmith can look that up and "code cut" a key for you. Are you willing to sacrifice the lock? They are not very hard to drill. There also exist special tubular drill bits explicitly for the task. NO, do NOT use the tubular drill bit of your paper drill. http://www.defensedevices.com/tubular-lock-saw.html http://hawleylocksupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HLS&Product_Code=A1S-14&Category_Code= -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 12:42:38 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: <4E8BDEC2.2090500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20111005104104.C39258@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 6:50 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > -sigh- ?need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, > > and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > > > > Any suggestions??? ?I'd like to not damage the case if possible. > > > > > > > > A good locksmith can pick the lock for you probably > A picture of the lock barrel that is used in these may help > I have sometimes made skeleton keys to get into stuff, then taken the > barrel/whatever lock design apart then made a suitable key. One I > swapped the pins to fit a key I had. The 5170 used an ACE (tubular/round key) lock. A REAL one, not the "latch that looks like a lock" that many generic clones used. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 12:50:50 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <4E8B933A.1522.30B5FD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E8BDEC2.2090500@mail.msu.edu>, <4E8B933A.1522.30B5FD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111005104259.P39258@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think that the stock 5170 ever had a case lock. You might > have one with a gray trim plate on the back covering up all the > screws, but you just pry that gently off. That lock in the front of > the machine is for locking out the keyboard. Once you've got the > system open, just disconnect the leads that go to the motherboard and > you're in business. > If you have some aftermarket lock, drill the bugger out with a nice > tough cobalt drill bit. I HAVE seen stock 5170s with a cam on the lock. But, I can't say whether they all had a cam, since who the hell would LOCK it?? The case MIGHT have enough flex to get it open once the screws are out with minimal damage. Once it is open, take out the screw on the back of the cam lock, and flip the cam over, so that neither of its two positions engages the strike. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 5 13:02:47 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 19:02:47 +0100 Subject: Dissolving a collection: bits for sale, including books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <024001cc8388$feb13900$fc13ab00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joachim Thiemann > Sent: 05 October 2011 18:21 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Dissolving a collection: bits for sale, including books > > Hello everyone, > anticipating a move across the Atlantic in the near future, I decided to start > selling a large part of my collection. I'm still adding things on occasion, but I > would guess that mostly the books might be of interest to folks here. > > I've put the list(s) up here: > http://sites.google.com/site/oldcomputerbitsforsale/home > > I would of course prefer is someone local can grab the stuff, but I am willing > to mail things. > > Joe. > -- > Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem1 You don't say which side of the Altantic you are on now... Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 13:15:15 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 11:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> > > all of which are "lysdexia", adjacent keys, etc. none of which are > > homonym substitutions, or lack of understanding of correct word(s) (no > > "their" v "they're", "to" v "too", etc.) > >> On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell also wrote: > >>> Why can't HR people use their mother tongue in the accepted way? On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Most of them, not all of them. Regardless, it's not an excuse. I hit > adjacent keys in the wrong order a lot too, but I make an effort to > correct them before hitting send. Not an excuse. Just pointing out that it is a qualitatively different form of error than language misuse. I am certainly NOT down-playing its importance. > The writer can't be bothered to take a few seconds to correct his > typos, the result is 100's/1000's of readers have to waste time > stumbling over interpreting his message(s). I'm not being anal - it's > casual email conversation, not a thesis, and much of it can glossed > over - but there is a point past which it is an insult to the reader. I agree, IN PRINCIPLE. But, I won't scrutinize your messages looking for errors to point out. Because, I have to admit that I make more misteaks than anybody else, and often fail to catch numerous ones. I am far from expert, but I will make a minimal effort. I don't often "stumble" on the errors in Tony's posts, although that might be a "grey" area. > This is much the same as the recent criticisms of tortured grammar. The > writer is basically saying his time is more important than the readers' > time. If you're writing notes to yourself, do whatever you want. If > you're intending to communicate to others: language has rules for a > reason. Although language evolves, we can at least try to avoid slothful changes. There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of punctuation relative to quotation marks, arbitrary creation of plurals (particularly with acronyms or other capitaliation exceptions), certain "creative" spelings, capitalization for emphasis, nested parentheses, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 5 13:16:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 11:16:49 -0700 Subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <20111005104259.P39258@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E8BDEC2.2090500@mail.msu.edu>, <4E8B933A.1522.30B5FD6@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111005104259.P39258@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E8C3CA1.3636.9F6675@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Oct 2011 at 10:50, Fred Cisin wrote: > I HAVE seen stock 5170s with a cam on the lock. > But, I can't say whether they all had a cam, since who the hell would > LOCK it?? I've never seen a 5170 with a factory case-lock, but I don't doubt that there was a market for them that was filled by IBM. Locking things back then was very popular--I used to have a Mitsubishi workstation monitor with a key-lock on the adjustment drawer--and of course, no key. Or HP Vectras with very difficult to defeat case locks... Has anyone tried the famous Kryptonite bike lock-Bic pen unlocking trick on a 5170 case lock? http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2004/09/64987 --Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Wed Oct 5 13:20:43 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 11:20:43 -0700 Subject: how much current does a G3 iMac pull? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0386D1C4-F2F1-4E09-A9D4-8916619A51EA@comcast.net> OnWed, 5 Oct 2011 01:46:20 -0400, Joe Giliberti wrote: > > Does anyone know about how many amps a G3 CRT iMac draws? More specifically, > I am talking about a 600MHz G3 model with Airport. MacTracker indicates that the iMac (Early 2001) and the iMac (Summer 2001) both pull a maximum of 150 watts. These two models were the last two iMac beasts of the G3 ilk and had a 600 MHz processor as an option. MacTracker is a great little application that covers all the Macintosh models to date and includes information on configurations, graphics, software, connections and expansion, and history. -> CRC From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 13:27:19 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:27:19 -0400 Subject: Dissolving a collection: bits for sale, including books In-Reply-To: <024001cc8388$feb13900$fc13ab00$@ntlworld.com> References: <024001cc8388$feb13900$fc13ab00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 14:02, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Hello everyone, >> anticipating a move across the Atlantic in the near future, I decided to > start >> selling a large part of my collection. ?I'm still adding things on > occasion, but I >> would guess that mostly the books might be of interest to folks here. [...] > You don't say which side of the Altantic you are on now... > > Regards > > Rob Right. I'm in Montreal, Canada. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem1 From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 13:54:14 2011 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:54:14 -0400 Subject: how much current does a G3 iMac pull? In-Reply-To: <0386D1C4-F2F1-4E09-A9D4-8916619A51EA@comcast.net> References: <0386D1C4-F2F1-4E09-A9D4-8916619A51EA@comcast.net> Message-ID: Thank you both! I've got what I needed Regards, Joe Giliberti On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:20 PM, CRC wrote: > OnWed, 5 Oct 2011 01:46:20 -0400, Joe Giliberti > wrote: > > > > Does anyone know about how many amps a G3 CRT iMac draws? More > specifically, > > I am talking about a 600MHz G3 model with Airport. > > > MacTracker indicates that the iMac (Early 2001) and the iMac (Summer 2001) > both pull a maximum of 150 watts. These two models were the last two iMac > beasts of the G3 ilk and had a 600 MHz processor as an option. > > MacTracker is a great little application that > covers all the Macintosh models to date and includes information on > configurations, graphics, software, connections and expansion, and history. > > -> CRC From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 13:56:43 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 11:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111005115517.C39258@shell.lmi.net> > > -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, > > and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > > Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Open the case I interpreted THAT as what he's having trouble with > and unplug the keylock from the motherboard. It is R at RE that you see 5170s or PS/2s locked. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 5 14:11:27 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 12:11:27 -0700 Subject: New color plastic filament for 3D printing: "TRS-80 Battleship Grey" Message-ID: <4E8CABDF.8040802@brouhaha.com> They call the color "silver", but now you can print your own objects to match the early TRS-80 cases: http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2011/10/05/just-in-for-fall-abs-in-brown-tan-electric-yellow-and-limited-edition-silver-gray/ http://store.makerbot.com/metallic-silver-abs-1kg-spool-1-75mm-filament.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 14:24:55 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New color plastic filament for 3D printing: "TRS-80 Battleship Grey" In-Reply-To: <4E8CABDF.8040802@brouhaha.com> References: <4E8CABDF.8040802@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20111005122327.X39258@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > They call the color "silver", but now you can print your own objects to > match the early TRS-80 cases: According to the manager at the Oakland "Radio Shack Computer Center", Tandy called their color, "Mercedes Silver". They did not like it when people called it "gray". From ss at allegro.com Wed Oct 5 14:37:51 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:37:51 -0700 Subject: Free: pair of 32 MB SIMMs for HP 3000/9x7 & HP 9000/8x7 computers In-Reply-To: <4E8AAEDD.3070700@brouhaha.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> <4E8AAEDD.3070700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6120A9E2-BB00-44C9-8D06-1111803C4B9F@allegro.com> Hi, So, you've got an HP 3000/917 (or any 9x7, or a 9000/8x7) that's booting up too quickly? You can solve that by adding more memory! :) (The POST can take half an hour on a fully loaded 9x7 / 8x7!) Seriously, if anyone wants a pair of 32 MB SIMMs for a 9x7 or 8x7, please email me offline. Free for pickup in Santa Clara, otherwise $15 via PayPal (for domestic US shipping). thanks, Stan From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 5 14:38:19 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 12:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <20111005115517.C39258@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111005115517.C39258@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, >>> and locked the damn thing and took the key :( >>> Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. > > On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Open the case > I interpreted THAT as what he's having trouble with > I've never seen _any_ AT case with an integrated lock on it. I never considered such a beast until after I saw follow up replies. BTW, if anyone has a working 5170 motherboard they want to part with, I'd be happy to give it a home. I've got a mint case that needs a brain (and the fancy plastic back cover as well). g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 14:49:07 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 12:49:07 -0700 Subject: Free: pair of 32 MB SIMMs for HP 3000/9x7 & HP 9000/8x7 computers In-Reply-To: <6120A9E2-BB00-44C9-8D06-1111803C4B9F@allegro.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> <4E8AAEDD.3070700@brouhaha.com> <6120A9E2-BB00-44C9-8D06-1111803C4B9F@allegro.com> Message-ID: <4E8CB4B3.3020502@gmail.com> On 10/5/2011 12:37 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: > Hi, > > So, you've got an HP 3000/917 (or any 9x7, or a 9000/8x7) that's > booting up too quickly? > > You can solve that by adding more memory! :) > > (The POST can take half an hour on a fully loaded 9x7 / 8x7!) > Tell me about it. I was playing with my 3000/957SX last night. It has 800mb of ram in it. Waiting for the console to come up is a perfect time to go fix dinner or catch a TV show. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 5 15:04:41 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:04:41 -0500 Subject: Want a 9-track repair business? Message-ID: <201110052006.p95K5sKU078024@billy.ezwind.net> I had three 9-tracks I'd picked up a few years ago. None worked out of the box; they collected dust. Last weekend I knew I'd pass by http://www.comco-inc.com/ in Bettendorf, Iowa, one of the few 9-track sales and service places I'd found. I didn't have much advance warning, so I just brought the drives with me and left them at his door step because the shop was closed. I left an M4 9914, an Overland Data 5622, and an HP 88780. Diagnosis is $495, deductable from repairs if I proceed. Ouch! He says he still sells "a few" 9-tracks a year. His offer to me was a reconditioned HP 88780 for $1795 including manual, cleaning pads and a scratch tape. He said "BIG IDEA... Here's a wonderful chance to corner the 9-track business: I'll sell you 1000 lbs of parts for $1,000 (FOB Bettendorf). I'll even throw in graphics, manuals, etc. At the very least, you will be able to build several drives. I am not kidding." The building he's in has a commercial real-estate "for sale" sign out front. Maybe he was a renter and he needs to move. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 15:56:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: <20111005115517.C39258@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111005135311.U47628@shell.lmi.net> > >>> -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, > >>> and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > >>> Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. > >> Open the case > > I interpreted THAT as what he's having trouble with On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've never seen _any_ AT case with an integrated lock on it. I never > considered such a beast until after I saw follow up replies. Geoffrey, Care to clarify? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 14:30:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:30:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <2D84FBBEB50547D1831E2DD7B943A245@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Oct 4, 11 06:44:45 pm Message-ID: > In the corporate world, there is no place for learners. Although I I am sure you are correct, but this is one of the most worrying things I've read for a long time :-( Is it any wonder I regard modern prodcuts as being a load of crap when they're designed and built by people who aren't still learning? The day I stop learning is the day I am '6 feet under' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:03:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:03:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <20111005001103.GE11566@brevard.conman.org> from "Sean Conner" at Oct 4, 11 08:11:04 pm Message-ID: > > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > I fail to see why. In the case of Outlook, surely any e-mail prgram can > > send/receive mail that is compatible with it. Does it matter what I > > choose to use? It's about as sensible as saying I _must_ use a tektronix > > 'scope. > > To be fair, there is *one* feature of Lookout that not many other e-mail > programs support---that is, the ability of managers to schedule your time in > meetings and update your calendar automatically. I prefer my tools (whether physical or computer) to do one job and do it well. I do not want a combined screwdriver and pliers [1], I do not want my mail program to do anything other than send/receive mail (and to import/export said mail in a format that other programs can use if necessary). [1] Yes, OK, I have a Leatherman tool. But I don;'t use it when I am at my bench and have other tools avaialble., And pewrhaps I shouldn't say this, but the only time I want to manage is measured in nanoseconds (or picoseconds) and relates to gate delays and the like :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 14:41:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:41:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8B81B3.5080601@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 4, 11 05:59:15 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/04/2011 05:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I fail to see why. In the case of Outlook, surely any e-mail prgram can > > send/receive mail that is compatible with it. Does it matter what I > > choose to use? It's about as sensible as saying I _must_ use a tektronix > > 'scope. > > Actually, I'd equate "you must use Outlook" with "you must use a > cheap plastic Chinese 'scope". ;) Err, yes, sorry... I was just giving an example, not moaning about Tekky.... Although modern Tektronix 'scopes seem to be in plastic casings, and it wouldn't suprise me if some parts were made in China. More seriously, If you ask me to fix your classic computer you (I asusme) don't care what tools I use. I cna use any brand of screwdriver I choose. Of course, if I chew up the screw heads, or damage the plastic casing by using the wrong sort of screwdriver then you have every reason to moan, but I've not met anyone who cares whether I use CK, Xcellite, Facom, or whoever. Ditto for test gear. I like tektronix 'scopes, but even if you prefer LeCroy, I don't think you're going to complain if I find/fix the fault. It should be the same with computer tools too. Provided I can read and produce files in the format you require it shouldn't matter what I use, and what machine/OS I run it on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 14:51:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:51:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8B8392.3080201@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Oct 4, 11 06:07:14 pm Message-ID: > > Word has been around for almost 30 years so there is no reason why > anyone should complain about its use, its also one of the easiest There is every reason to complain about its use if it doesn't do the job I want, or if it is inferior to other programs for what I want to do. I much prefer the idea of a separate editor and formatter, the latter taking in a file contianing pritable characters only. For me this has many advantages, among them : I can produce the input file on any comnputer I own. If I want to type up a paragrph 'on the move' I can do os on an old HP palmtop. More usefully, it doesn't have to be me, or indeed a person, that produces that input file. I can trivially write a program in any language to output a suitable file. Which means, for example, I can write a program to analyse the contents of a look-up table ROM and have the output of said program as a LaTeX file with the right formatting commands in it. To me this is _very_ useful. It also means that as that file is included inthe text at the formatting stage, a slip with the editor can't change it, so I can't accidentally change one of the numbers in the table. Since the formatting comamnds are just strings of text, I can trivially ensure that that 2 tables (or wahtever) are formatted identically. This is much hareder to do with any what-you-see-is-all-you-get program And of course I can process a plain text file with any number of other tools. It's odd, but I find it a lot easier to get the results I want in TeX/LaTeX than my Word-using friends do with Word. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:20:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:20:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: <4E8BC307.3070405@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Oct 4, 11 07:37:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/3/11 9:03 PM, leaknoil wrote: > > > What is in the gas tank ? > > helium If that message ended up on a motor car mailing list, it would get soem very odd comments... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:21:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:21:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at Oct 5, 11 10:39:02 am Message-ID: > > On 5 October 2011 10:28, Christian Liendo wrote: > > Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. > > Oooo. Pictures of computers without their panels on! I don't need pictures, I've got the real thing :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 14:54:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:54:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Oct 4, 11 11:12:02 pm Message-ID: > > =A0 In the corporate world, there is no place for learners. Although I = > believe > > The very nature of a job in the museum world dealing with old machines > requires a learning ability Absolutely. I think (even if I say so myself) I am fairly clueful when it comes to at least some vintage computers, but even on the machines I know 'inside out' I am always having to learn new things, adapt methods that have worked before, etc. > and more importantly relearning old skills as befitting a machine of its = > age. > Its one of the reasons for my personal library. After 40 years Seconded. > volunteering in various museums and archives I know this "learning" is > continuous and required. I do not intend to stop learning while I am still alive. Period. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:22:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:22:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: How very meta: the classic computing experience In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Oct 4, 11 08:10:35 pm Message-ID: > > Yea all we need now is porn attachments.. > > I'll just leave this right here: > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html Please get that naked gentleman out of the way so I can see the 11/34 and RL drives properly :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 16:09:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 22:09:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <20111005104259.P39258@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 5, 11 10:50:50 am Message-ID: > I HAVE seen stock 5170s with a cam on the lock. Mine certainly does > But, I can't say whether they all had a cam, since who the hell would LOCK > it?? The Hardware Maintenance and Service manual for the PC/AT (the only IBM boardswapper book I have) says they have a case lock, and gives the procedure for removing the lock from the LED panel. But that assumes you've got it open. > > The case MIGHT have enough flex to get it open once the screws are out > with minimal damage. > > Once it is open, take out the screw on the back of the cam lock, and flip > the cam over, so that neither of its two positions engages the strike. The only ptoblem is that the actuator operates a microswitch too, to disable the keyboard. You will have to open/short this if you remvoe the actuator. I'd unlock it or repin it. This involves dismantling the lock itself. Basically, from ehat I remmeber : Remvoe the LED/swithc panel from the machine (3 screws), then unscrew the microswithc fixings, remove the nut from the back of the lock, take off the actuator, peel off the label on the front, pull out the locking clip and slide the lcok out (this is in the IBM manual). On the side of the lock you'll see a pin, about 1/8" in diameter. Drill this out cafefully. The lock then comes apart from the back. It's like a Yale (cylidner) lock rearranged round the disk, of course. 2 pins in each hole with a springe behind them The notches in the key push the pins to the right depths so that the division between the pins lines up with the back surface of the (rotating) disk. To re-pin the lock, all you have to do is make new pins of the right lengths to suit a key you have. This is not difficult. Nor is making a new pin to hold the thing together to replace the one you drilled out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:42:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:42:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Oct 4, 11 10:50:15 pm Message-ID: > > -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be funny, > and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > > Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. Assuming this is a real IBM one... Do not force it. The metal actuator on the back of the loc enganges a hook-like projstion on the platic case front IIRC. Forcing it will break soemthinn (most likely the plastic panel that holds the lock and the 2 LEDs. It's a 7 pin ACE tubular lock, of course. Similar to the DEC frontpanel lock (you know, the XX2247 key), but with different pinning. I am not sure if all 5170s were pinned alike or not (something tells me they weren't). Anyway, if you know a good locksmith, or have a suitable tubular lockpick, then pick the lock. It's not that hard. You neve need to lock it again, of course, once it's unlocked, the case will come on and off easily and the keyboard will be enabled (another function of the lock is to aoperate a microswitch connected to the keyboard interface IC). The easiest way to do it with minimal damage if you can't get the lock picked is to ask somebody who has one of these cases open (I'll do it if necessary) to determine the positions of the screws hodling this little lock/LED panel in place. Then drill neat holes through the plastic front, remvoe the screwes, fiddle the panel about to free the case and get it off. Once the case is off, you cna remove the panel completly and then remove the lock from it. Then dismantle the lock and reasseble it in the 'open' position. Maybe re-pin it to suit a key you have (I've alwyas thoguht of repinning the one on this PC to take a DEC XX2247 key :-)). It shouldnt be too hard to fill the holes you drilled in the case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 16:17:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 22:17:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 5, 11 11:15:15 am Message-ID: > There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. As do I. I do it conciously, because I feel the 'standard' rules obscure meaning. > Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of > punctuation relative to quotation marks, arbitrary creation of plurals In particular, I've been known to end a quotation with ` .". ' (that is 3 characters, a full stop, a double quote and another full stop). The first full stop was part of the material I was quoting, the quotation marks ended the quote and the second full stop ended the sentence I was writing. > (particularly with acronyms or other capitaliation exceptions), certain I also refuse to capitalise something that can never be capitalised, even at the start of a sentence. Things like variable names, unix commands, etc. Of course it's best not to start a sentence with soemthing like that, but... > "creative" spelings, capitalization for emphasis, nested parentheses, > etc. I really object to the English conventions which state that a single close parentesis closes an arbitrary number of oepn parentheses (and that uou should never have 2 adjacent close parentheses in a piece of text). That oen makes it impossible to write accurate text in some cases. Nor do I like that idea that quotations (and parentheses) end at the end of a paragrpah. Seeing a whole string of paragrpahs starting with open quotation marks and never seeing any closing quotation marks drives me mad. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:53:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:53:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: In summary... In-Reply-To: <4E8BA749.1060508@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Oct 4, 11 05:39:37 pm Message-ID: > Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power > brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power > bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be > working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... >From what I rememeber, the power brick contains a transformer with effectively 2 centre-tapped outputs [1]. The tap is conencted to system logic grounmd. One set of outputsi s fed as AC to the keyboard unit, where it is rectified and smoothed to provide the +5V ad -5V rails. The other set of outputs is rectified in the brick by 2 diodes (biphase rectifier) and fed to the keyboard unit where it is smoothed and regulated to provide the +12V line. [1] I do not know if it's one long transformer winding with 5 conenctions or 2 separate centre-tapped windings with the taps joined. In other words if it's : ||(-------------- ||( ----)||(-------------- )||( )||(-------------- Centre tap )||( ----)||(-------------- ||( ||(-------------- Or ||(-------------- ||( ----)||(----+ )||( | )||(----)--------- )|| | ----)||(----)--------- ||( | ||(----+--------- Centre tape of both secondary windings ||( ||(-------------- I once had to determine how the transformer in an old HP printer was wound. What I did (with the thing turned off and the primary disconencted) was to connect the highest-voltage secondary conenctions (the ends of the largest winding, effecively) to a DC supply, the voltage of which I turned up until a sensible current (about 1A) was flowing. I then meausued th eDC voltage between the ends of the other secondary. If it's like the first diagram, you get a measurable voltage between these wire, if it's the second diagram you get 0. That's easy to check. The TRS-80 Model 1 TechRef says that it's 2 sparate windings. The first is 14V at 1A. This is used for the +5V and -5V suppleis). The other outputs 19.8V at 350mA after rectification (the 2 diodes in the brick), so I assume it's a centre-tapped 28V winding, rated at 0.5A or so. There are no smoothing capacitors or transistors/ICs in the brick. I asusme the diodes can fail. Whether this then damages the transformer, or whether you can catch it in time I don't know. The manual mentions a fuse in series with the mains input to the primary winding, this may well blow to protect the transformer. I believe the USA bircks were plastic-cased and many of them were glued together (but check dfor screws under labels, feet, etc). I have heard that one way to open them is to hold the cables about 1m for the brick and swing it onto a hard floor :-). Less violent is to either tap round the join betwee nthe 2 parts with a mallet or to carefully sqeeze it near the join in a vice. European bricks are a bit larger (which means they don't fit in the Expansion Interface compartment unless you remvoe the tray from it) and metal cased. They are held together by 4 obvious screws. I think the trnasofmer is potted ad effectivelg glued in to the case by the potting compound, but IIRC the wiring and diodes are easy to get to if you open the case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:56:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:56:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Oct 5, 11 07:18:48 am Message-ID: > > > Here, I'll start: Anyone know if the original TRS-80 Model I power > > brick suffers from the same failure modes as those old C64/VIC-20 power > > bricks? Any repair options? I've got an old one that seems to be > > working OK for now, just wondering if it'll stay that way... > > What about using a PC PSU in its place? :) > Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple components (transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more components (the PC PSU)??? -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 17:33:43 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 19:33:43 -0300 Subject: Power brick repair References: Message-ID: <373AAF6B73D94F909A3F1F85206390BB@portajara> > Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple components > (transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more > components (the PC PSU)??? Maybe because it is very pratical, until I repair the original PSU? :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 18:34:13 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111005162417.O48783@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > It's a 7 pin ACE tubular lock, of course. Similar to the DEC frontpanel > lock (you know, the XX2247 key), but with different pinning. . . . > (I've alwyas thought of repinning the one on this PC to take a DEC > XX2247 key :-)). THAT would be an ideal pinning for it! Anybody remember/save the actual pinning depths from that discussion? (XX2247 is a "code number" that indexes into an array of actual dimensions; XX2247 is NOT the depths of the cuts) > I am not sure if all 5170s were pinned alike or not (something tells me > they weren't). NO. I have encountered ones that would not "respond" to keys from other ones. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 18:37:23 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111005163434.E48783@shell.lmi.net> > > Once it is open, take out the screw on the back of the cam lock, and flip > > the cam over, so that neither of its two positions engages the strike. On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > The only ptoblem is that the actuator operates a microswitch too, to > disable the keyboard. You will have to open/short this if you remvoe the > actuator. IFF there were reason to do so, it shouldn't be very difficult (mechanically) to modify it so that the switch portion remains functional, but not the case latch. It's been enough years since I've done so that I don't remember the details [ACCURATELY], but I think that I WOULD remember if it were to have been non-trivial. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 18:44:09 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:44:09 -0700 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <20111005162417.O48783@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111005162417.O48783@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > THAT would be an ideal pinning for it! > Anybody remember/save the actual pinning depths from that discussion? > (XX2247 is a "code number" that indexes into an array of actual > dimensions; XX2247 is NOT the depths of the cuts) > See below: On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 25/04/2011 04:37, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> Here's what I got from two original XX2247 keys... >> >> The cut depths, clockwise from the first position, looking into the open >> end with the key at the "twelve 0'clock" position are: >> >> Key 1 Key 1 Key 2 Key 2 >> >> 0.0770" 1.94mm 0.0785" 1.95mm >> 0.0150" 0.37mm 0.0155" 0.39mm >> 0.1055" 2.68mm 0.1070" 2.72mm >> 0.0435" 1.13mm 0.0455" 1.13mm >> 0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1085" 2.74mm >> 0.0780" 1.96mm 0.0785" 1.98mm >> 0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1095" 2.77mm > . > . > . >> I'm not quite sure what this says about cutting tolerances or what multiple >> the depths of cut are. > > Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but > according to... > > http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth > > The depths by number are: > > 1 - 0.0155" > 2 - 0.0310" > 3 - 0.0465" > 4 - 0.0620" > 5 - 0.0775" > 6 - 0.093" > 7 - 0.1085" > 8 - 0.1240" > > Meaning that the XX2247 key would have depths (in the order you > describe) of 5-1-7-3-7-5-7 > > A locksmith set up for ACE cutting would have the code book to convert > the serial number into the depth sequence, so the number on the key is > the important datum. Knowing the numeric depths is handy when you are > pinning a lock so you know which bin to pull pins from. > > -ethan > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 5 18:46:13 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:46:13 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 Message-ID: Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 18:50:12 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111005164142.T48783@shell.lmi.net> > > There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I also refuse to capitalise something that can never be capitalised, even > at the start of a sentence. Things like variable names, unix commands, > etc. Of course it's best not to start a sentence with something like > that, but... Example: The sentence: Scanf() and fscanf() (especially scanf() are "trustworthy." Is just plain WRONG in every meaningful way. And, we mustn't forget that Tony can see the colour grey, when all that I can see is a gray color. That doesn't make me an arsehole, because that's spellled differently here. There are also some words that have different levels of impact in different cultures. "Wanker" is barely risque in USA. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 18:50:10 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 01:50:10 +0200 Subject: RIP Steve Jobs Message-ID: http://www.apple.com/stevejobs/ -- Stephane http://kiva.org/team/kathleen From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 18:52:56 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 18:52:56 -0500 Subject: steve jobs died Message-ID: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/05/apple-jobs-death.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 18:54:14 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: <20111005162417.O48783@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111005165213.X48783@shell.lmi.net> [deliberately top-posted to avoid trimming] Thank you! We now know the CORRECT re-pinning for all 5170, as well as PS/2 locks. On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > See below: > On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On 25/04/2011 04:37, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > >> Here's what I got from two original XX2247 keys... > >> > >> The cut depths, clockwise from the first position, looking into the open > >> end with the key at the "twelve 0'clock" position are: > >> > >> Key 1 Key 1 Key 2 Key 2 > >> > >> 0.0770" 1.94mm 0.0785" 1.95mm > >> 0.0150" 0.37mm 0.0155" 0.39mm > >> 0.1055" 2.68mm 0.1070" 2.72mm > >> 0.0435" 1.13mm 0.0455" 1.13mm > >> 0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1085" 2.74mm > >> 0.0780" 1.96mm 0.0785" 1.98mm > >> 0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1095" 2.77mm > > . > > . > > . > >> I'm not quite sure what this says about cutting tolerances or what multiple > >> the depths of cut are. > > > > Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but > > according to... > > > > http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth > > > > The depths by number are: > > > > 1 - 0.0155" > > 2 - 0.0310" > > 3 - 0.0465" > > 4 - 0.0620" > > 5 - 0.0775" > > 6 - 0.093" > > 7 - 0.1085" > > 8 - 0.1240" > > > > Meaning that the XX2247 key would have depths (in the order you > > describe) of 5-1-7-3-7-5-7 > > > > A locksmith set up for ACE cutting would have the code book to convert > > the serial number into the depth sequence, so the number on the key is > > the important datum. Knowing the numeric depths is handy when you are > > pinning a lock so you know which bin to pull pins from. > > -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 18:55:00 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:55:00 -0700 Subject: Apple co-founder and Silicon Valley pioneer Steve Jobs has died Message-ID: Just in case you're not connected to news, Steve Jobs died today. http://www.mercurynews.com/obituaries/ci_19048827 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 18:56:24 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 18:56:24 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: indeed made breaking news on my local news here just now On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). > > From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 18:56:52 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:56:52 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8CEEC4.4060509@gmail.com> On 10/5/2011 4:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). > https://www.apple.com/stevejobs/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 5 18:57:15 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 00:57:15 +0100 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 06/10/2011 00:46, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). > I've just seen the releases :-( I'm not afraid to say I might be leaking slightly. Sent from my iMac. RIP sir. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 5 18:57:20 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:57:20 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:46 PM -0700 10/5/11, Brent Hilpert wrote: >Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). http://www.apple.com :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 18:57:53 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111005165608.I48783@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple components > (transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more > components (the PC PSU)??? Although it may offend you in principle, "obsolete" PCs show up in the gutter around here, but TRS80 parts cost money. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 18:59:16 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:59:16 -0300 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 References: Message-ID: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 5 19:03:51 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 20:03:51 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8CF067.5030204@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/10/11 5:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. > > As do I. I do it conciously, because I feel the 'standard' rules obscure > meaning. > > >> Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of >> punctuation relative to quotation marks, arbitrary creation of plurals > > In particular, I've been known to end a quotation with ` .". ' (that is 3 > characters, a full stop, a double quote and another full stop). The > first full stop was part of the material I was quoting, the quotation > marks ended the quote and the second full stop ended the sentence I was > writing. Do whatever you like online, but if you're typesetting, you should follow proper typographic practice. > >> (particularly with acronyms or other capitaliation exceptions), certain > > I also refuse to capitalise something that can never be capitalised, even > at the start of a sentence. Things like variable names, unix commands, > etc. Of course it's best not to start a sentence with soemthing like > that, but... > >> "creative" spelings, capitalization for emphasis, nested parentheses, >> etc. > > I really object to the English conventions which state that a single > close parentesis closes an arbitrary number of oepn parentheses (and that > uou should never have 2 adjacent close parentheses in a piece of text). I don't recall seeing either case in any printed text. Also I never heard of this "one closing parenthesis closes many opening parentheses" convention. Do you have a citation? --Toby > That oen makes it impossible to write accurate text in some cases. Nor do > I like that idea that quotations (and parentheses) end at the end of a > paragrpah. Seeing a whole string of paragrpahs starting with open > quotation marks and never seeing any closing quotation marks drives me mad. > > -tony > From leaknoil at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 19:17:22 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:17:22 -0700 Subject: Apple co-founder and Silicon Valley pioneer Steve Jobs has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8CF392.4050405@gmail.com> On 10/5/2011 4:55 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Just in case you're not connected to news, Steve Jobs died today. > > http://www.mercurynews.com/obituaries/ci_19048827 I imagine there must be a lot of people on the digest or something. It's not just you but, it keeps getting posted. In other news Woz.org seems to have crashed under the load of millions of people trying to see what he has to say. I am curious too so, please stop trying to access his site until I can read whatever might be there. Then crash it all you want. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 19:21:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 17:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> This may offend many, but, . . . did he die before or after the iPhone5 event? His influence will live on. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 5 19:42:05 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 17:42:05 -0700 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A53E9.7000606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: Geoffrey Reed Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:33 PM > Especially true if it is a company that has pulled many former MS HR and > execs over. Kind of like a certain "museum" that was initially staffed > with museum personnel and then they replaced many of them with former MS > managers that had -0- idea on how to run a museum. Sounds dreadful. Care to name the museum? I'm curious. Rich Alderson, Sr. Curator Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 5 19:46:14 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:46:14 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> Message-ID: <76968ABB0CA04880BDCADBC362E18F2C@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 7:59 PM Subject: Re: Steve Jobs -2011 >> Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). > > He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. He had a good run, now we will see a million people dressed alike in black "think different shirts" at his funeral. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 5 19:59:09 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 17:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... Message-ID: Anyone on the list have disks or disk images for this beastie? It's lurking quietly at the local thrift shop and has no docs/media. They probably think it's a DOS machine of some kind. :) (it's a CP/M portable) tnx all! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 5 20:07:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:07:11 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> References: , <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> Message-ID: <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Oct 2011 at 20:59, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). > > He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. "De mortuis nil nisi bonum" would be in good taste at this point. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 5 20:25:13 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:25:13 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> Interesting that google translate auto recognition thought this was french then proceeded to mangle it. It didn't have latin in the past, so I would use another site to force the translation. Way way off topic, unless one counts reading Bernie Greenberg's multics source comments in the hard core supervisor. Wonder what Gates will have to say about his passing. Jim On 10/5/2011 6:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > De mortuis nil nisi bonum From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 20:53:12 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 18:53:12 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com> <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 6:25 PM, jim s wrote: > > Wonder what Gates will have to say about his passing. > http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/jobs-apple-co-founder-is-dead/ Bill Gates, the former chief executive of Microsoft, said in a statement that he was ?truly saddened to learn of Steve Jobs?s death.? He added: ?The world rarely sees someone who has had the profound impact Steve has had, the effects of which will be felt for many generations to come. For those of us lucky enough to get to work with him, it?s been an insanely great honor. I will miss Steve immensely.? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 14:57:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:57:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 4, 11 03:48:00 pm Message-ID: > > On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don;t > > Soem fo > > approrpriate > > obviosuly > > thier > > meansyou're not a prectical persion'. > > bothrered > > tbhey > > Taht > > invterviewer > > understnaa > > candidtate > > buzzword,s > > arew > > ina differnet > > thst > > probzbly > > folloiw > > microcontrolelr > > Somethign > > leaat > > saem > > absolutle > > ownderful > > othre > > doens't > > considert > > Otherwiase > > enginewer > > soemthing > > htey > > lsit > > On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell also wrote: > > > Why can't HR people use their mother tongue in the accepted way? If you can't tell the difference between a post to a mailing list (likely to be quick and informal) and a job advert (likely to be formal) then I am suprised. Similarly if you can't tell the difference between a typo and misusing an English word (such as using 'required' to mean 'desirable') then again I am very suprised. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 5 21:22:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 22:22:26 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8D10E2.7090500@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2011 03:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I fail to see why. In the case of Outlook, surely any e-mail prgram can >>> send/receive mail that is compatible with it. Does it matter what I >>> choose to use? It's about as sensible as saying I _must_ use a tektronix >>> 'scope. >> >> Actually, I'd equate "you must use Outlook" with "you must use a >> cheap plastic Chinese 'scope". ;) > > Err, yes, sorry... I was just giving an example, not moaning about > Tekky.... Although modern Tektronix 'scopes seem to be in plastic > casings, and it wouldn't suprise me if some parts were made in China. > > More seriously, If you ask me to fix your classic computer you (I asusme) > don't care what tools I use. I cna use any brand of screwdriver I choose. > Of course, if I chew up the screw heads, or damage the plastic casing by > using the wrong sort of screwdriver then you have every reason to moan, > but I've not met anyone who cares whether I use CK, Xcellite, Facom, or > whoever. > > Ditto for test gear. I like tektronix 'scopes, but even if you prefer > LeCroy, I don't think you're going to complain if I find/fix the fault. > > It should be the same with computer tools too. Provided I can read and > produce files in the format you require it shouldn't matter what I use, > and what machine/OS I run it on. Absolutely. But here in America, thieving idiots wearing ties occasionally wander in off the golf course and tell technical experts how to do their jobs, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 5 21:23:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 22:23:22 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8D111A.4030208@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2011 03:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > It's odd, but I find it a lot easier to get the results I want in > TeX/LaTeX than my Word-using friends do with Word. And it actually LOOKS good. I've often wondered if Microsoft has hired ANYONE who knows anything at all about typography. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 5 21:28:23 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 22:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Anyone on the list have disks or disk images for this beastie? It's lurking > quietly at the local thrift shop and has no docs/media. They probably think > it's a DOS machine of some kind. :) (it's a CP/M portable) The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in the 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14 disk images on your Retroarchive site. :-) http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 5 21:28:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 22:28:41 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2011 02:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. > Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of What's the rule there? Comma or no comma? Is it "this, that, and the other thing" or "this, that and the other thing"? Also, howabout a period ending a sentence of which the last component is quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Oct 5 21:51:32 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 22:51:32 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8D17B4.3070606@verizon.net> On 10/5/2011 10:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2011 02:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. >> Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of > > What's the rule there? Comma or no comma? Is it "this, that, and the > other thing" or "this, that and the other thing"? > > Also, howabout a period ending a sentence of which the last component > is quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? > > -Dave I'm pretty sure that it's "this, that, and the other thing" and "The period definitely goes inside the quotes." Keith From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 5 21:52:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 19:52:40 -0700 Subject: Google translate In-Reply-To: <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> References: , <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E8CB588.21800.277AC11@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Oct 2011 at 18:25, jim s wrote: > Interesting that google translate auto recognition thought this was > french then proceeded to mangle it. It didn't have latin in the past, > so I would use another site to force the translation. > De mortuis nil nisi bonum I note that Google has dropped Latin from its "Language tools" main page. The renderings were hilarious, if not cryptic. For example, Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio. (In laboring to be brief I become obscure.) used to translate to something like "To be brief, dance with ugly women." Using translate.google.com, it now is rendered as "Shortcut to be to work, become obscure.", which sort of misses the point, but at least skips the ugly women. Translate.google.com still shows Latin as a choice, so for the above, you get a very reasonable "Nothing but good concerning the dead" So Google's improving. If I crank the Lithuanian national anthem into Google Translate, it used to deliver, verbatim, the "poetic" Wikipedia translation. It flows well, but takes definite liberties with the text. Now, the translation is more literal, even if it doesn't know some of the words. I'm guessing that Google's algorithms for inflected languages don't work terribly well--yet. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 5 21:55:00 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 19:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8D10E2.7090500@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 5, 11 10:22:26 pm" Message-ID: <201110060255.p962t1WG016454@floodgap.com> > > It should be the same with computer tools too. Provided I can read and > > produce files in the format you require it shouldn't matter what I use, > > and what machine/OS I run it on. > > Absolutely. But here in America, thieving idiots wearing ties > occasionally wander in off the golf course and tell technical experts > how to do their jobs, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. And that is why we have the Second Amendment. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Power corrupts, but absolute power is wonderful. --------------------------- From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Oct 5 22:00:09 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:00:09 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8D19B9.8060107@verizon.net> On 10/5/2011 10:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2011 02:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. >> Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of > > What's the rule there? Comma or no comma? Is it "this, that, and the > other thing" or "this, that and the other thing"? > > Also, howabout a period ending a sentence of which the last component > is quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? > > -Dave I should have mentioned: http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm (rule 1 for commas, see example when last two items might glom together: apples, macaroni, and cheese different meaning than apples, macaroni and cheese) http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm (see bolded statement) for proper support. Thanks, Keith From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 5 22:05:40 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8D111A.4030208@neurotica.com> References: <4E8D111A.4030208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2011 03:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> It's odd, but I find it a lot easier to get the results I want in >> TeX/LaTeX than my Word-using friends do with Word. > > And it actually LOOKS good. I've often wondered if Microsoft has hired > ANYONE who knows anything at all about typography. I often get comments of "That looks nice. How'd you get it to look so good?" regarding my LaTeX stuff. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 5 22:09:10 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:09:10 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8D1BD6.2070600@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/10/11 10:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2011 02:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. >> Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of > > What's the rule there? Comma or no comma? Is it "this, that, and the > other thing" or "this, that and the other thing"? > I think that's called the "Oxford comma," and opinions vary... > Also, howabout a period ending a sentence of which the last component is > quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? The typographic convention is inside, but do whatever you want electronically... nobody's watching except your inner Aspie... --Toby > > -Dave > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 5 22:11:52 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 20:11:52 -0700 Subject: auction photos (was Re: The Commodore 65) In-Reply-To: References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> <4E8AAEDD.3070700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E8D1C78.4050206@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > If an auction listing has a picture, and the picture isn't the actual item, > there should be an explicit statement of that fact. William Donzelli wrote: > No, there is no requirement for this, nor does there need to be. There > is plenty of legal precedence with Implied Warranties (in the US, > anyway). > As long as any variations are insignificant (the UCC calls it > "standard tolerances" or something), everything is legal and above the > table. > Think of the legal mess there would be if this was not the case. Who is to say what variations are "insignificant"? "Standard tolerances" doesn't cover a lot of the variations between photos and actual items I've seen. For instance, I just bought some chips. The seller had two different lots of chips with the same base part number. For one, the photo showed chips marked ES (Engineering Sample), which means that they were not qualified for production use. The other lot had chips without the ES marking. I specifically purchased the lot of chips without the ES marking. What actually arrived is chips with the ES marking, although they aren't the specific chips pictured in either auction lot. Are you going to tell me that this is "standard tolerances"? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 5 22:22:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:22:53 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D1BD6.2070600@telegraphics.com.au> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> <4E8D1BD6.2070600@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E8D1F0D.20408@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2011 11:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Also, howabout a period ending a sentence of which the last component is >> quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? > > The typographic convention is inside, but do whatever you want > electronically... nobody's watching except your inner Aspie... ...and everyone else for whom I want to show respect by communicating to them accurately. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 5 22:32:50 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:32:50 -0400 Subject: Typography at Microsoft - was Re: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8D111A.4030208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8D2162.7070301@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/10/11 11:05 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/05/2011 03:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> It's odd, but I find it a lot easier to get the results I want in >>> TeX/LaTeX than my Word-using friends do with Word. >> >> And it actually LOOKS good. I've often wondered if Microsoft has hired >> ANYONE who knows anything at all about typography. Yes, they have a Typography department. One of its famous tenants is the man who designed Comic Sans, Vincent Connare. But to give credit where it's due, despite the awfulness of Windows XP's font rasteriser (did they ever fix that up in W7?), they do have some quantity of typographic talent in house. They produced an interesting (if little known) tool in Visual TrueType, too; and were of course participants in the standardisation (!!) of the very useful TrueType format. --Toby > > I often get comments of "That looks nice. How'd you get it to look so > good?" regarding my LaTeX stuff. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 5 22:45:09 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:45:09 -0400 Subject: Punctuating meticulously online - was Re: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D1F0D.20408@neurotica.com> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> <4E8D1BD6.2070600@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8D1F0D.20408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8D2445.3060805@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/10/11 11:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2011 11:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >>> Also, howabout a period ending a sentence of which the last component is >>> quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? >> >> The typographic convention is inside, but do whatever you want >> electronically... nobody's watching except your inner Aspie... > > ...and everyone else for whom I want to show respect by communicating to > them accurately. ;) True, but 1) few people really notice and 2) rules tend to be a bit looser in media like email and irc, I seem to observe. Perhaps because the traditional cost of fixing a typo in a warehouse full of 200,000 books is relatively prohibitive :) ^^ look, I omitted a period & you didn't notice! So there's a new de facto rule: No period after an emoticon... --T > > -Dave > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 22:52:22 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 23:52:22 -0400 Subject: auction photos (was Re: The Commodore 65) In-Reply-To: <4E8D1C78.4050206@brouhaha.com> References: <4E892A5A.9040209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8943E9.3040301@jwsss.com> <4E89AABB.1080303@telegraphics.com.au> <015801cc81df$8dcc2c40$a96484c0$@ntlworld.com> <4E89D724.6060303@neurotica.com> <4E89FB09.4050100@neurotica.com> <4E8AAEDD.3070700@brouhaha.com> <4E8D1C78.4050206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Who is to say what variations are "insignificant"? The significance of the variation depends on what is being sold, and is based on what is "reasonable" for the kind of sale. "Reasonable" is determined by common sense - what most people would think is OK, basically. Some kinds of sales tolerate no variations - works of art, for example. Any variation would pretty much mean the object is not original. Some things can have a little variations, like a chair. The figure of the wood will be unique to all chairs, but the finish can be specified. Some things can have bigger variations, like a pile of crushed cars. As long as the metal content is there, the makes and models really do not matter. And then some things can have pretty wide variations, like a plate of meatloaf from the diner. Is it made like how my mother made it, or yours? In your chip experience, I would say that the differences were significant enough (by quite a bit) that you have the right to void the deal. Any court would see that most engineers would not be willing to swap engineering samples for production parts. However, if the only difference was perhaps the manufacturer of the chips, the story might be different. A court might see that most engineers would not care if their 555 timers were made by Signetics or National. Remember, the implied warranty is there to protect both the buyer and the seller. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 5 22:54:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:54:42 -0400 Subject: Typography at Microsoft - was Re: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8D2162.7070301@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E8D111A.4030208@neurotica.com> <4E8D2162.7070301@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E8D2682.9000803@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2011 11:32 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> It's odd, but I find it a lot easier to get the results I want in >>>> TeX/LaTeX than my Word-using friends do with Word. >>> >>> And it actually LOOKS good. I've often wondered if Microsoft has hired >>> ANYONE who knows anything at all about typography. > > Yes, they have a Typography department. One of its famous > tenants is the man who designed Comic Sans, Vincent Connare. > > But to give credit where it's due, despite the awfulness of Windows XP's > font rasteriser (did they ever fix that up in W7?), they do have some > quantity of typographic talent in house. They produced an interesting > (if little known) tool in Visual TrueType, too; and were of course > participants in the standardisation (!!) of the very useful TrueType > format. That's awesome, I didn't know that. I'm quite certain there'd be enormous improvements if some people in that group would be introduced to the people maintaining Word. One of the most consistent things I've seen in consumer-level computing is that Word documents look just awful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 5 22:55:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:55:35 -0400 Subject: Punctuating meticulously online - was Re: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D2445.3060805@telegraphics.com.au> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> <4E8D1BD6.2070600@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8D1F0D.20408@neurotica.com> <4E8D2445.3060805@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E8D26B7.2080500@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2011 11:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> The typographic convention is inside, but do whatever you want >>> electronically... nobody's watching except your inner Aspie... >> >> ...and everyone else for whom I want to show respect by communicating to >> them accurately. ;) > > True, but 1) few people really notice and 2) rules tend to be a bit > looser in media like email and irc, I seem to observe. Perhaps because > the traditional cost of fixing a typo in a warehouse full of 200,000 > books is relatively prohibitive :) I agree with your point, but personally, I DO notice, so I gotta thing that lots of other people do. > ^^ look, I omitted a period & you didn't notice! So there's a new de > facto rule: No period after an emoticon... I noticed!! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 5 23:05:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 00:05:50 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8D111A.4030208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8D291E.8010104@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2011 11:05 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> It's odd, but I find it a lot easier to get the results I want in >>> TeX/LaTeX than my Word-using friends do with Word. >> >> And it actually LOOKS good. I've often wondered if Microsoft has hired >> ANYONE who knows anything at all about typography. > > I often get comments of "That looks nice. How'd you get it to look so > good?" regarding my LaTeX stuff. Me too. It really does produce beautiful output. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 5 23:13:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 21:13:30 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> References: , <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E8CC87A.12466.2C1AE5B@cclist.sydex.com> I will confess that when I saw the TMZ photo of Steve Jobs (looked like it was taken in Woodside) on the day of his resignation, the preface to T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" came to mind: ""Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere..." For with my own eyes I saw the Sibyl hanging in a jar at Cumae, and when the boys said to her, 'Sibyl, what do you want?' she replied, "I want to die." (Eliot quoting from Petronius' "Satyricon") Apple's Sybil, wasting away to a skeleton; no expense spared in keeping him alive to keep up the company stock value... How horrible. I wonder if stories will be told about his final days. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 6 00:02:05 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 22:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111005214850.S60620@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > What's the rule there? Comma or no comma? Is it "this, that, and > the other thing" or "this, that and the other thing"? I always include the comma, to avoid issues of whether the last two items might actually be combined, like bread and butter. But, when I was doing the Honda book (a non-computer project 30+ years ago), my publisher insisted that I was "breaking the rule". We also faught about "burnt valve" V "burned valve". And wherever I wrote "tighten til snug", he wanted to change it to "till"! So, I changed all instances to "until". > Also, howabout a prtiod ending a sentence of which the last component > is quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? The "rule" is that the period is SUPPOSED to go inside the quotes, indisunirregardless of whether that conveys the correct meaning! From spedraja at ono.com Thu Oct 6 00:38:06 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:38:06 +0200 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Not offensive for me. Business are business at all. And, in fact, I'm not sure if Apple did the presentation finally. Sergio 2011/10/6 Fred Cisin > This may offend many, but, . . . > did he die before or after the iPhone5 event? > > > His influence will live on. > > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 6 00:46:19 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 22:46:19 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Donner Analog Schematics Message-ID: Forwarding this to the list in case anyone can help out. I presume the fellow found me through my web page about an analog computer, and/or my page about a Systron Donner counter. I don't have any Systron Donner analog computers however. This would, of course, be (the son of) Higinbotham of tennis-for-two fame. Begin forwarded message: > From: William Higinbotham > Date: 2011 October 4 5:36:08 PM PDT > To: > Subject: Donner Analog Schematics > > Dear Brent Hilbert, (^Hilpert) > ? > ?? My name Is William B. Higinbotham, I am the son of William A. > Higinbotham > who worked at Brookhaven National Laboratory most of his life. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Higinbotham > ? > ?? I am writing you because the museums in the US and a local > laboratory is looking for schematics for (Systron/)Donner analog > computers. Here is an ad for the Donner 3400 > http://www.sciencemag.org/content/129/3349/671.full.pdf? > which Peter Takacs, takacs at bnl.gov has to rebuild the early game > computer. http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/history/higinbotham4.asp > Here is the Donner Programming Book > http://www.analogmuseum.org/library/handbook_of_analog_computation.pdf > ? > If you know of any forums to ask if anyone has schematics for these > analog computers, we all would be grateful. > ? > Sincerely > William B. Higinbotham, Bellport, NY? USA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 6 01:21:40 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 23:21:40 -0700 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61845c082b57f15724b1d9cd221fdb2b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Oct 5, at 12:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> I don;t >>> Soem fo >>> approrpriate >>> obviosuly >>> thier >>> meansyou're not a prectical persion'. >>> bothrered >>> tbhey >>> Taht >>> invterviewer >>> understnaa >>> candidtate >>> buzzword,s >>> arew >>> ina differnet >>> thst >>> probzbly >>> folloiw >>> microcontrolelr >>> Somethign >>> leaat >>> saem >>> absolutle >>> ownderful >>> othre >>> doens't >>> considert >>> Otherwiase >>> enginewer >>> soemthing >>> htey >>> lsit >> >> On 2011 Oct 4, at 1:10 PM, Tony Duell also wrote: >> >>> Why can't HR people use their mother tongue in the accepted way? > > If you can't tell the difference between a post to a mailing list > (likely > to be quick and informal) and a job advert (likely to be formal) then I > am suprised. > > Similarly if you can't tell the difference between a typo and misusing > an > English word (such as using 'required' to mean 'desirable') then again > I > am very suprised. That there are differences does not invalidate the point. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 6 01:29:01 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:29:01 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E8D4AAD.3050200@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > This may offend many, but, . . . > did he die before or after the iPhone5 event? Apple has not (yet) announced any iPhone 5. Assuming that they announce an iPhone 5 at some point in the future, the answer to your question is "before". From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 6 01:31:12 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 06:31:12 +0000 Subject: Steve Jobs Message-ID: <391032447-1317882673-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1753549188-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> That answer is still less offensive than "during!" ------Original Message------ From: Eric Smith Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Steve Jobs Sent: 6 Oct 2011 06:29 Fred Cisin wrote: > This may offend many, but, . . . > did he die before or after the iPhone5 event? Apple has not (yet) announced any iPhone 5. Assuming that they announce an iPhone 5 at some point in the future, the answer to your question is "before". From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 02:27:21 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 08:27:21 +0100 Subject: Donner Analog Schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Forwarding this to the list in case anyone can help out. > > I presume the fellow found me through my web page about an analog computer, > and/or my page about a Systron Donner counter. I don't have any Systron > Donner analog computers however. > > This would, of course, be (the son of) Higinbotham of tennis-for-two fame. > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: William Higinbotham >> Date: 2011 October 4 5:36:08 PM PDT >> To: >> Subject: Donner Analog Schematics >> >> Dear Brent Hilbert, > > ? ? ? ? ? (^Hilpert) >> >> >> ?? My name Is William B. Higinbotham, I am the son of William A. >> Higinbotham >> who worked at Brookhaven National Laboratory most of his life. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Higinbotham >> >> ?? I am writing you because the museums in the US and a local laboratory >> is looking for schematics for (Systron/)Donner analog computers. Here is an >> ad for the Donner 3400 >> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/129/3349/671.full.pdf >> which Peter Takacs, takacs at bnl.gov has to rebuild the early game computer. >> http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/history/higinbotham4.asp >> Here is the Donner Programming Book >> http://www.analogmuseum.org/library/handbook_of_analog_computation.pdf >> >> If you know of any forums to ask if anyone has schematics for these analog >> computers, we all would be grateful. >> >> Sincerely >> William B. Higinbotham, Bellport, NY? USA > > > I just did a search in my pile and I have one http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=systron+donner for the Systron Donner Analog computer 10/20 I have a small scanning queue at the moment Dave Caroline From ray at arachelian.com Thu Oct 6 07:18:43 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 08:18:43 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8CC87A.12466.2C1AE5B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> <4E8CC87A.12466.2C1AE5B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E8D9CA3.8070104@arachelian.com> On 10/06/2011 12:13 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Apple's Sybil, wasting away to a skeleton; no expense spared in > keeping him alive to keep up the company stock value... > > How horrible. I wonder if stories will be told about his final days. Rest assured, the ghouls are busily writing books even as we go about our normal lives, if they haven't already pre-written them in anticipation of his expiration. How else would those multi-page, chock full of picture articles released just minutes after his passing? It's an open secret that magazines and newspapers keep obits on anyone famous nearing death on ice until it's time to add a couple of sentences about the timing and reason for the event and what the family said. One thing I've noticed is that some of the articles name his biological parents, which I suppose was something the journalists knew but kept silent until his death. It's interesting to see what the media will keep quiet and what they won't. We can expect a whole slew of books, some rehashed with added chapters, some new from scratch. Who can say if they are truthful or made up? (My favorite are The Little Kingdom and West of Eden. I'm more interested in the earlier days of Apple, as those had the most impact on the industry. The later stuff is all about making disposable, locked in, toys that barely last more than a year, and are hyped beyond all reason with prices to match. There's plenty of good coming out of Apple, but it's mixed in with the bad.) From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 6 07:52:33 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 08:52:33 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7bb4d0507f3f52325a86d5f69c2a2dd8@bellsouth.net> > On 10/05/2011 02:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. >> Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of > > What's the rule there? Comma or no comma? Is it "this, that, and > the other thing" or "this, that and the other thing"? Back when I was in school, they taught the second style, but when I was writing my book, the publisher wanted me to use the first style. Since then, I've come to appreciate putting the comma there for some of the reasons already mentioned. > Also, howabout a period ending a sentence of which the last component > is quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? The old rule was always to put it inside the quotes. However, that doesn't work very well when the quotation marks are being used for some reason other than quoting another speaker. When the quotes are used to set off something that should be treated as a literal string or are being used as simple symbols being presented, then it makes sense to put it after, and my understanding is that is becoming more and more accepted. BLS From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 6 08:32:01 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 06:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Anyone on the list have disks or disk images for this beastie? It's >> lurking quietly at the local thrift shop and has no docs/media. They >> probably think it's a DOS machine of some kind. :) (it's a CP/M portable) > > The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB RAM > in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in the 14 > (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14 disk images > on your Retroarchive site. :-) > > http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip > Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a double-sided boot disk. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 6 08:33:46 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 06:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <201110060255.p962t1WG016454@floodgap.com> References: <201110060255.p962t1WG016454@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> It should be the same with computer tools too. Provided I can read and >>> produce files in the format you require it shouldn't matter what I use, >>> and what machine/OS I run it on. >> >> Absolutely. But here in America, thieving idiots wearing ties >> occasionally wander in off the golf course and tell technical experts >> how to do their jobs, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. > > And that is why we have the Second Amendment. > Have you any idea how hard it is to process consultants through a wood chipper? Those industrial models are *expensive*. Unfortunately, I'm running out of room under the machine room floor... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Oct 6 08:51:58 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB >> RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in the >> 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14 disk >> images on your Retroarchive site. :-) >> >> http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip >> > Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a > double-sided boot disk. :) So, extract the system tracks from the double-sided image and write them to a single-sided image and copy any desired files. I've done the same sort of thing on Linux, using 'dd' and cpmtools. ...or put a double-sided drive in it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 6 08:55:20 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 08:55:20 -0500 Subject: Google translate In-Reply-To: <4E8CB588.21800.277AC11@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com> <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> <4E8CB588.21800.277AC11@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110061357.p96Dv8f6001104@billy.ezwind.net> At 09:52 PM 10/5/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >If I crank the Lithuanian national anthem into Google Translate, it >used to deliver, verbatim, the "poetic" Wikipedia translation. I've seen descriptions that their technique uses known human-made side-by-side translations when possible. - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 6 09:00:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: >>> >>> The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB >>> RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in >>> the 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14 >>> disk images on your Retroarchive site. :-) >>> >>> http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip >>> >> Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a >> double-sided boot disk. :) > > So, extract the system tracks from the double-sided image and write them > to a single-sided image and copy any desired files. I've done the same sort > of thing on Linux, using 'dd' and cpmtools. > > ...or put a double-sided drive in it. For me it's just not worth the effort unless I have the right media for it. I don't even know what the thrift shop wants for the machine. I may be up to my neck in Kaypro hardware soon anyway... :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 6 09:18:47 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:18:47 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8D9CA3.8070104@arachelian.com> References: <4E8C9CCF.6607.21719A8@cclist.sydex.com> <4E8D0379.9000909@jwsss.com> <4E8CC87A.12466.2C1AE5B@cclist.sydex.com> <4E8D9CA3.8070104@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <201110061421.p96ELTHj002154@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:18 AM 10/6/2011, Ray Arachelian wrote: >One thing I've noticed is that some of the articles name his biological >parents, which I suppose was something the journalists knew but kept >silent until his death. It's interesting to see what the media will >keep quiet and what they won't. No, that's been out for quite a while. I knew in 1983 or so. I mentioned it on this list in 1996, and Sellam mentioned it in 2000 (along with the Syrian father aspect.) It's been in the press for a while, particularly with the connection to his sister. - John From technobug at comcast.net Thu Oct 6 10:21:19 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 08:21:19 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 98, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85300907-4935-479E-B202-86F2999DDD34@comcast.net> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 22:02:05 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > The "rule" is that the period is SUPPOSED to go inside the quotes, > indisunirregardless of whether that conveys the correct meaning! > see: :-) . ->CRC From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 6 10:29:15 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 08:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z-Letter... Message-ID: Does anyone know how many issues of the Z-Letter (think CP/M & ZCPR) were published? I've got #s 1, 3, 4 and 5 plus the first Z-System software catalog. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 12:18:17 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 13:18:17 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 98, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: <85300907-4935-479E-B202-86F2999DDD34@comcast.net> References: <85300907-4935-479E-B202-86F2999DDD34@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:21 AM, CRC wrote: > On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 22:02:05 -0700 (PDT), ?Fred Cisin wrote: > >> The "rule" is that the period is SUPPOSED to go inside the quotes, >> indisunirregardless of whether that conveys the correct meaning! >> > > > see: :-) . That all depends. IIRC, British English does things one way and American English does things the other. Given the global nature of the Internet, some people are probably from places where punctuation is handled one way and others are certain be from somewhere where it's handled differently. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 6 13:27:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 11:27:51 -0700 Subject: Z-Letter... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8D90B7.16024.885A30@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2011 at 8:29, Gene Buckle wrote: > Does anyone know how many issues of the Z-Letter (think CP/M & ZCPR) > were published? I've got #s 1, 3, 4 and 5 plus the first Z-System > software catalog. I think I've got Dave's last letter announcing the end tucked away somewhere. He used to reside here in Eugene, then moved down to the San Jose area, I think. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 6 13:32:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 14:32:34 -0400 Subject: CHM honors Jim Williams and Bob Pease Message-ID: <4E8DF442.9000109@neurotica.com> I just read that CHM will honor Jim Williams and Bob Pease in a new exhibit opening on October 15th. The exhibit will feature Jim William's well-known, unbelievably cluttered bench, painstakinly relocated in-situ. I felt a real physical pain when I learned about the deaths of Williams and Pease. Thank you, CHM, for doing this. Article with photos here: http://www.edn.com/article/519496-Computer_History_Museum_honors_Jim_Williams_and_Bob_Pease.php This is, of course, not intended to detract from the well-deserved attention Steve Jobs (RIP) is getting. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 6 13:40:58 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z-Letter... In-Reply-To: <4E8D90B7.16024.885A30@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E8D90B7.16024.885A30@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Oct 2011 at 8:29, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Does anyone know how many issues of the Z-Letter (think CP/M & ZCPR) >> were published? I've got #s 1, 3, 4 and 5 plus the first Z-System >> software catalog. > > I think I've got Dave's last letter announcing the end tucked away > somewhere. He used to reside here in Eugene, then moved down to the > San Jose area, I think. Ok, thanks. I got those issues in a much bigger collection of The Boston Kugel newsletters (apparently the Kaypro SIG of the Boston Computer Society). g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 6 13:42:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111006113648.D81964@shell.lmi.net> > >>> The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB > >>> RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in > >>> the 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14 > >>> disk images on your Retroarchive site. :-) > >>> http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip > > ...or put a double-sided drive in it. On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > For me it's just not worth the effort unless I have the right media for > it. I don't even know what the thrift shop wants for the machine. I may > be up to my neck in Kaypro hardware soon anyway... :) Howzbout: cable up a double sided drive TEMPORARILY, with the existing single sided drive as B: boot, test, enjoy format a single sided disk (good luck finding the right FORMAT command line options, if it doesn't automagically switch) SYSGEN PIP put the single sided drive back into A: position There probably are numerous people on this list who would like to purchase a CP/M laptop. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 6 13:57:25 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: <20111006113648.D81964@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111006113648.D81964@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> The differences between the Bondwell models 12 and 14 seem to be 128KB >>>>> RAM in the 14 (as opposed to 64KB in the 12) and double-sided drives in >>>>> the 14 (versus single-sided in the 12). You could try the Bondwell 14 >>>>> disk images on your Retroarchive site. :-) >>>>> http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/bondwell/bw14dsks.zip >>> ...or put a double-sided drive in it. > > On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> For me it's just not worth the effort unless I have the right media for >> it. I don't even know what the thrift shop wants for the machine. I may >> be up to my neck in Kaypro hardware soon anyway... :) > > Howzbout: > cable up a double sided drive TEMPORARILY, with the existing single sided > drive as B: > boot, test, enjoy > format a single sided disk (good luck finding the right FORMAT command > line options, if it doesn't automagically switch) > SYSGEN > PIP > put the single sided drive back into A: position > Might be worth a shot of nothing else pans out. > There probably are numerous people on this list who would like to purchase > a CP/M laptop. > This is only a laptop if you're 8 feet tall. It's Kaypro sized, just with a plastic case. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 6 14:07:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:07:45 -0700 Subject: Z-Letter... In-Reply-To: References: , <4E8D90B7.16024.885A30@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E8D9A11.22782.ACE0C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2011 at 11:40, Gene Buckle wrote: > Ok, thanks. I got those issues in a much bigger collection of The > Boston Kugel newsletters (apparently the Kaypro SIG of the Boston > Computer Society). A quick look at my correspondence with Dave says that the last time I was in contact with him by email was July, 1996. Dave closed down the Z-letter sometime around then, got involved in offering stuff to doll enthusiasts, then left the area. As I recall, he was living up here taking care of his mother, while his wife was down in San Jose. I might be able to find those Z-letters; however my files are fairly unorganized from that time, so you'll have to be extremely patient. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 14:26:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:26:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: <373AAF6B73D94F909A3F1F85206390BB@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Oct 5, 11 07:33:43 pm Message-ID: > > > Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple components > > (transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more > > components (the PC PSU)??? > > Maybe because it is very pratical, until I repair the original PSU? :) Firstly, since the output of the TRS-80 Model 1 brick is not regulated (or even smoothed DC) you can't just connect a PC power supply to the DIN socket on the keyboard unit. You would have to bypass the regulator circuitry on the CPU board (which I do not recomend doing). Also, IIRC these 3-rail DRAMs are sensitive to the order that the supplies are applied (IIRC the -5V supply must be present before the +12V one). A PC power supply might be OK, it might not Secondly, let's think about that power brick. The transfomer rarely fails, normally the (soldered in) fuse goes first if there's a short on the secodnary side (note that a shorted smoothing capacitor or rectifier on the CPU board will blow this fuse). So the only things you're likely to have to replace i nthe brick are the fuse and the diodes. Are those really that hard to find? My junk box is full of 'em... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 14:39:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:39:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <20111005162417.O48783@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 5, 11 04:34:13 pm Message-ID: > > (I've alwyas thought of repinning the one on this PC to take a DEC > > XX2247 key :-)). > > THAT would be an ideal pinning for it! OK, I am going to have to do this. Problem is, it's on the machine I _use_ and I really don't want p850ug1 to be down for any length of time. > Anybody remember/save the actual pinning depths from that discussion? > (XX2247 is a "code number" that indexes into an array of actual > dimensions; XX2247 is NOT the depths of the cuts) If you haev an XX2247 key, it's not hard to measure the cuts. Also, if you're going to make your own pins (i.e. if you don't have access to the ACE repinning kit, assuming it exists), you would normally do it by fitting the ky to the rotating part of the lock, then insering a pin that's too long and cutting/filing it to length. You don't need to work to dimentions, you work to 'fit'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 14:42:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:42:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: 5170 lock (Was: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <20111005163434.E48783@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 5, 11 04:37:23 pm Message-ID: > > > > Once it is open, take out the screw on the back of the cam lock, and flip > > > the cam over, so that neither of its two positions engages the strike. > > On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > The only ptoblem is that the actuator operates a microswitch too, to > > disable the keyboard. You will have to open/short this if you remvoe the > > actuator. > > IFF there were reason to do so, it shouldn't be very difficult > (mechanically) to modify it so that the switch portion remains functional, IIRC, there's metal actuator cam on the back of the lock, and the projection that operates the microswitch is diferent from the part that locks the case together. So it's possible to hacksaw off the latter and leave the former alone. But why bother? If you don't have a key to fit the lock, you can't use it anyway (I assume you want the case to be openable and the keyboard enabled). If you do have a key, it's no real problem if the case is locked and the keyboard disabled at the same time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 14:48:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:48:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: <20111005165608.I48783@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 5, 11 04:57:53 pm Message-ID: > > Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple components > > (transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more > > components (the PC PSU)??? > > Although it may offend you in principle, "obsolete" PCs show up in the > gutter around here, but TRS80 parts cost money. You mean there really are classic computer people who don't have boxes of assorted fuses, diodes, etc? Amazing... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 14:51:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:51:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Oct 5, 11 08:59:16 pm Message-ID: > > > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). > > He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. > I don't think there's any call for that sort of comment. I am no fan of Apple's products or policies, but I am saddendd by the death of somebody who had ideas and implemented them (and you can't claim that Apple's products have not been a commercial success). We need more people who are prepared to 'do things differently' IMHO. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 14:58:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:58:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8CF067.5030204@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Oct 5, 11 08:03:51 pm Message-ID: > Do whatever you like online, but if you're typesetting, you should > follow proper typographic practice. No, I disagree (and this was precisely my point). Many of the typesetting rules are governed by aesthetics -- what looks 'right' on the page. The sort of things I write are designed to convey information, and doing that unambiguously is important. Suppose I write : The Forth command line to display the product of 3 and 4 is "3 4 * ." Now, is that '.' part of the command line, or is it just the end of the sentence? Actually, it's the former. It's a Forth word to remove the number of the top of the stack and print it. But if I write The Forth command line to display the product of 3 and 4 is "3 4 * .". Then the extra '.' at the end is clearly the end of the sentence, meaning the one before the quotation mark is part of the command. As I am sure you're aware, common punctuation marks have special meanings in many programming languages. It's important to be clear whether they are part of the command/programming example or part of the text. Chanign font (or using boldfce, etc) can help, but it's not all that clear (and is not possible on some output devices anyway). I'd rather my docuemation conveyed the infromation, even if it doens't look quite as nice. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 15:03:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:03:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8D10E2.7090500@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 5, 11 10:22:26 pm Message-ID: > Absolutely. But here in America, thieving idiots wearing ties > occasionally wander in off the golf course and tell technical experts > how to do their jobs, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. I wonder if they like having hot soldering irons thrust up bodily orifices? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 15:11:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:11:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 5, 11 10:28:41 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/05/2011 02:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > There are, however SOME language rules that I CHOOSE to flagrantly break. > > Those include comma before "and" in a list, "LOGICAL" placement of > > What's the rule there? Comma or no comma? Is it "this, that, and > the other thing" or "this, that and the other thing"? I belive the stnadrd is 'this, that and the other'. I prefer 'this, that, and the other' particularly when the 'that' may include 'and'. The text 'I used 3 devices at my HPCC demonstration this year. They were an HP9866 printer, an HP71 and an HP82165 GPIO unit and an home-made interface' makes little sense. But adding the extra comma 'I used 3 devices at my HPCC demonstration this year. They were an HP9866 printer, an HP71 and an HP82165 GPIO unit, and an home-made interface' implies that the first deivce was the printer, the second device was the HP71 together with the 82165 interface and the third device was the home-made interface. I beleive doing this is called a 'Oxford comma'. > > Also, howabout a period ending a sentence of which the last component > is quoted text? Period inside or outside the double quotes? If there;s a period as part of the quoted text, then I put one inside the quores. If it ends a sentexce, then there's a period outside the quotes (it may not loo k as nice, but it's more logical, the period is not something I was quoting). And yes, if both, then 2 periods. For example : My last sentence was "And yes, if both then 2 periods.". -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 15:13:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:13:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <201110060255.p962t1WG016454@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 5, 11 07:55:00 pm Message-ID: > > Absolutely. But here in America, thieving idiots wearing ties > > occasionally wander in off the golf course and tell technical experts > > how to do their jobs, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. > > And that is why we have the Second Amendment. That's the one about having a right to arm bears, isn't it? -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 6 15:54:59 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 13:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z-Letter... In-Reply-To: <4E8D9A11.22782.ACE0C6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E8D90B7.16024.885A30@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E8D9A11.22782.ACE0C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Oct 2011 at 11:40, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Ok, thanks. I got those issues in a much bigger collection of The >> Boston Kugel newsletters (apparently the Kaypro SIG of the Boston >> Computer Society). > > A quick look at my correspondence with Dave says that the last time I > was in contact with him by email was July, 1996. Dave closed down > the Z-letter sometime around then, got involved in offering stuff to > doll enthusiasts, then left the area. As I recall, he was living up > here taking care of his mother, while his wife was down in San Jose. > > I might be able to find those Z-letters; however my files are fairly > unorganized from that time, so you'll have to be extremely patient. There's no rush Chuck. I intend to scan what I have and put it online. I've got access to a very nice high-speed duplexing scanner. Spits out PDF files at up to 600dpi color or b&w. I'll scan what I have at 300dpi. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 6 16:10:03 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 17:10:03 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 References: Message-ID: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Steve Jobs -2011 >> >> > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). >> >> He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. >> > > I don't think there's any call for that sort of comment. I am no fan of > Apple's products or policies, but I am saddendd by the death of somebody > who had ideas and implemented them (and you can't claim that Apple's > products have not been a commercial success). We need more people who are > prepared to 'do things differently' IMHO. > > -tony > Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced platforms you cannot service. People here complain about Intel/Microsoft but I think Jobs was 100 time worse in his my way or the highway approach to computing. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 6 16:15:55 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111006141519.W89988@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Secondly, let's think about that power brick. The transfomer rarely > fails, normally the (soldered in) fuse goes first if there's a short on > the secodnary side (note that a shorted smoothing capacitor or rectifier > on the CPU board will blow this fuse). So the only things you're likely > to have to replace i nthe brick are the fuse and the diodes. Are those > really that hard to find? My junk box is full of 'em... There are no expensive, hard to find parts in there to protect that fuse! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 6 16:15:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 17:15:59 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8E1A8F.4070109@neurotica.com> On 10/06/2011 04:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Absolutely. But here in America, thieving idiots wearing ties >> occasionally wander in off the golf course and tell technical experts >> how to do their jobs, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. > > I wonder if they like having hot soldering irons thrust up bodily > orifices? I've wanted to find out more times than I can count. Unfortunately, only once did I have enough power to be able to get away with grabbing one of those slimy suits and slamming him agains a wall. (literally) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 6 16:36:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 17:36:40 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> On 10/06/2011 05:10 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced platforms > you cannot service. People here complain about Intel/Microsoft but I > think Jobs was 100 time worse in his my way or the highway approach to > computing. Most people who eat at McDonald's frequently would call a $75 dinner at a high-end steak house to be "overpriced". Just sayin'.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 16:39:50 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 17:39:50 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:10 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced platforms you > cannot service. I've repaired broken Mac hardware - it's not as easy as for some other platforms (like the Amiga, one of the last home computer makers I can think of that published their schematics) but one can infer a lot from inspecting a board and reverse-engineering some schematics. > People here complain about Intel/Microsoft Yes, and not without merit. We also complain about Oracle/Sun, IBM, and other big name vendors. Being large makes you a target and does not make you immune to detractors. > but I think Jobs > was 100 time worse in his my way or the highway approach to computing. It's more like, "my way or Bill's Highway," when you boil it all down. I'm no Apple Fanboi but I've purchased and used Apple products over the past 25 years (often second-hand, since I'm not a fan of Apple prices). There are things I liked and things I didn't like about nearly everything the company has ever made. When the ratio is favorable, I'll likely buy and use that item. When it's unfavorable, I'll use something else. Some years, I use Apple products every day, other years, not so much. I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, but just because something isn't doesn't mean I would _never_ buy it. Most people who buy cars don't do their own maintenance (I do stuff I can and pay other people for stuff I can't or prefer not to). These days, most people don't do their own computer/electronic maintenance either. They buy something, use it, break it or get distracted by the new shiny, then replace it. They just don't care that it's difficult to fix. They care how shiny it is. I'm happy to be more than a passive consumer, but that's a minority position. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 6 17:11:44 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 18:11:44 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > On 10/06/2011 05:10 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced platforms >> you cannot service. People here complain about Intel/Microsoft but I >> think Jobs was 100 time worse in his my way or the highway approach to >> computing. > > Most people who eat at McDonald's frequently would call a $75 dinner at > a high-end steak house to be "overpriced". > > Just sayin'.. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Yea, few people can sell a McDonalds double cheeseburger with an Apple logo on it in a pretty box for $75 and call it a steak. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 6 17:23:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:23:15 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> On 10/06/2011 06:11 PM, TeoZ wrote: >>> Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced platforms >>> you cannot service. People here complain about Intel/Microsoft but I >>> think Jobs was 100 time worse in his my way or the highway approach to >>> computing. >> >> Most people who eat at McDonald's frequently would call a $75 dinner >> at a high-end steak house to be "overpriced". >> >> Just sayin'.. > > Yea, few people can sell a McDonalds double cheeseburger with an Apple > logo on it in a pretty box for $75 and call it a steak. Yes, lots of people think a MacBook is the same as, say, the average Dell. Their song changes very abruptly when they actually handle one. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mike at fenz.net Thu Oct 6 17:26:42 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 11:26:42 +1300 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> Message-ID: <863f7f4479e9ec1b6a54eb6f5746b1a2@vodafone.co.nz> On Thu, 6 Oct 2011 18:11:44 -0400, "TeoZ" wrote: >> Most people who eat at McDonald's frequently would call a $75 dinner at >> a high-end steak house to be "overpriced". >> -Dave > Yea, few people can sell a McDonalds double cheeseburger with an Apple logo > on it in a pretty box for $75 and call it a steak. Annd as is often the case, the truth is probably somewhere in between. My experience with the reliability of recent (last ten years) Apple hardware has been that it's been pretty much on par with reasonable-quality PC hardware. We had one iMac (an early Intel one) that bounced back and forth between us and Apple at least three times (I forget the details now), each time failing again in the same way in under 24 hours. Having said that, Apple's design and build quality is generally better (but not such that the price is justified, IMO). I do agree strongly with the point made earlier that Apple's major contribution to the world has been in the field of extreme vendor lock-in and apparently anti-competitive practice. Perhaps I'm still bitter about the whole Apple II/Woz thing! Anyway, that's what I thought of when I read the original $75 dinner vs. burger comment. I don't think it's a relevant point at all; each time I go out to dinner, I can easily choose one or the other depending on what works for me at the time. If I choose McDonald's, or the $75 lunch, I'm not stuck with that choice for months/years, and end up only being able to eat the breakfast and lunch that the Applestaurant tells me I can. I really do resent companies that try to over-reach thmeselves; this annoyed me about Microsoft for a long time, to the point that I find myself astonished to be in this position regarding Apple. Now, we just have to wait for Google to take over enough of the world for me to resent them as well. Then I can sit back and watch the fisticuffs between the three of them. Not that Microsoft seems likely to put up much of a fight these days. Mike From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Oct 6 20:01:06 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 6 Oct 2011 18:01:06 -0700 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <20111005092804.S39258@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111005092804.S39258@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1317949266.4e8e4f5294ee0@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Fred Cisin : > On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be > funny, > > and locked the damn thing and took the key :( > > Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. > > From your question, I will have to assume that you do not have the > skill > to pick the lock. Ace keys can be fairly easily picked with the right > tool - it doesn't take much knowledge of t > > You could pay a locksmith to pick it for you. They might laugh. > Particularly if they are young enough to not realize that the 5170 had > a > REAL lock, V the latch that looks like such a lock on cheap generic > ATs. > (In which case, negotiate a flat rate before starting) > BUT, since you can carry it in and set it on the counter, you will be > paying "bench" rates. > Does yours have a 4 to 6 digit number on the face of the lock? If so, > a > good locksmith can look that up and "code cut" a key for you. > > > Are you willing to sacrifice the lock? They are not very hard to > drill. > There also exist special tubular drill bits explicitly for the task. > NO, i have the skill but not the tool to do it, I had thought about using my regular lockpicks and make a custom tension wrench... not really -that- much harder than a 6 pin regular lock. no numbers on the face of the lock, one of the housemates is a locksmith and could cut me a key with the code.he is out of town doing some training this week and I was hoping to get in and take a look inside.... may have to wait anyways, he might have a tubular pick in his truck. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 6 20:46:23 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 21:46:23 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8E59EF.8010100@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/10/11 6:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/06/2011 06:11 PM, TeoZ wrote: >>>> Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced >>>> platforms >>>> you cannot service. People here complain about Intel/Microsoft but I >>>> think Jobs was 100 time worse in his my way or the highway approach to >>>> computing. >>> >>> Most people who eat at McDonald's frequently would call a $75 dinner >>> at a high-end steak house to be "overpriced". >>> >>> Just sayin'.. >> >> Yea, few people can sell a McDonalds double cheeseburger with an Apple >> logo on it in a pretty box for $75 and call it a steak. > > Yes, lots of people think a MacBook is the same as, say, the average > Dell. Their song changes very abruptly when they actually handle one. ;) > Well said. You can tell the difference the moment you pick one up. But Dell is hardly a fair comparison, even in the PC world. The crap end of the crap end, you might say. --Toby > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 6 20:48:39 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 21:48:39 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8E5A77.5010008@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/10/11 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). >> >> He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. >> > > I don't think there's any call for that sort of comment. I am no fan of > Apple's products or policies, but I am saddendd by the death of somebody > who had ideas and implemented them (and you can't claim that Apple's > products have not been a commercial success). We need more people who are > prepared to 'do things differently' IMHO. _And how_. --Toby > > -tony > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 6 21:20:45 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 22:20:45 -0400 Subject: Typography at Microsoft - was Re: Getting further ot, In-Reply-To: <4E8D2682.9000803@neurotica.com> References: <4E8D111A.4030208@neurotica.com> <4E8D2162.7070301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8D2682.9000803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8E61FD.80009@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/10/11 11:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2011 11:32 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> It's odd, but I find it a lot easier to get the results I want in >>>>> TeX/LaTeX than my Word-using friends do with Word. >>>> >>>> And it actually LOOKS good. I've often wondered if Microsoft has hired >>>> ANYONE who knows anything at all about typography. >> >> Yes, they have a Typography department. One of its famous >> tenants is the man who designed Comic Sans, Vincent Connare. >> >> But to give credit where it's due, despite the awfulness of Windows XP's >> font rasteriser (did they ever fix that up in W7?), they do have some >> quantity of typographic talent in house. They produced an interesting >> (if little known) tool in Visual TrueType, too; and were of course >> participants in the standardisation (!!) of the very useful TrueType >> format. > > That's awesome, I didn't know that. > > I'm quite certain there'd be enormous improvements if some people in > that group would be introduced to the people maintaining Word. One of > the most consistent things I've seen in consumer-level computing is that > Word documents look just awful. It is true that the two groups don't seem to talk enough; perhaps because the typographers would probably say: "Throw out the whole mess and start over." --T > > -Dave > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Oct 7 00:34:24 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 22:34:24 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> On 10/6/2011 3:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/06/2011 06:11 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> >> Yea, few people can sell a McDonalds double cheeseburger with an Apple >> logo on it in a pretty box for $75 and call it a steak. > > Yes, lots of people think a MacBook is the same as, say, the average > Dell. Their song changes very abruptly when they actually handle one. ;) Depends on the model, I suppose. Back when the original MacBook Pro was introduced I was in the market for a decent laptop and the MacBook fit the bill. It looked damned sexy, had a ton of horsepower and seemed pretty durable. It was indeed a very nice looking and very fast laptop but I was never actually able to use it on my *lap* for very long -- it ran *extremely* hot under anything more taxing than idle. The metal area between the keyboard and the screen would get almost too hot to touch under moderate loads and the underside was scorching hot as well. My understanding is that this was a common complaint with this particular model. I'm sure they've worked out that particular problem since then :). - Josh From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 05:36:39 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 07:36:39 -0300 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <863f7f4479e9ec1b6a54eb6f5746b1a2@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: > I do agree strongly with the point made earlier that Apple's major > contribution to the world has been in the field of extreme vendor lock-in > and apparently anti-competitive practice. Perhaps I'm still bitter about Try to come from the palm world and buy an iPhone. Got the 3GS yesterday and I still don't know what the hell I'll do to transfer my contacts database to the iPy beyond retype everything on outlook express, or upgrade (?) to full outlook and use the contact manager. I'm lost in the iphone world :P From ray at arachelian.com Fri Oct 7 06:08:13 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 07:08:13 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> On 10/07/2011 01:34 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Depends on the model, I suppose. Back when the original MacBook Pro > was introduced I was in the market for a decent laptop and the MacBook > fit the bill. It looked damned sexy, had a ton of horsepower and > seemed pretty durable. > > It was indeed a very nice looking and very fast laptop but I was never > actually able to use it on my *lap* for very long -- it ran > *extremely* hot under anything more taxing than idle. The metal area > between the keyboard and the screen would get almost too hot to touch > under moderate loads and the underside was scorching hot as well. My > understanding is that this was a common complaint with this particular > model. I have one of those. The problem is two fold. First, the heatsink is on the bottom of the laptop - it's a big huge pair of copper pipes that touch the CPU, GPU and northbridge and connect them to the bottom of the case and the two blower fans, so heat mostly goes to the bottom. Of course, hot air rises, so it escapes through the vent between the display and the keyboard, and some comes out of the keyboard. The 2nd problem is that these models were the ones that had thermal compound put on them with a trowel, which cooked these poor beasts. See: http://blog.johnkutlu.com/search/label/thermal%20paste and https://discussions.apple.com/message/12223482?messageID=12223482#12223482?messageID=12223482 These, which have ATI GPUs, and a few later nVidia models develp issues with their GPUs due to the heat. The issue is supposedly that they get so hot that the BGA connectors start to have their solder melt and show display artifacts. The extra heat tends to cook other things such as batteries and hard drives too. > > I'm sure they've worked out that particular problem since then :). > I believe they did. But they also added wonderful innovations such as the pentalobolar screws to keep their owners from doing their own repairs, such as replacing the now "permanent" batteries. (You can buy special screwdrivers for these from iFixit and other places. Batteries for these models are starting to become available too, since these came out in 2009 and we're seeing the first batch of the batteries starting to hold less of a charge.) The one improvement to the newer unibody ones is that their hard drives are easy to replace. The earlier models, you have a lot more screws to undo, and you have to remove the keyboard to get at the hard drive. OTOH, with the earlier ones, replacing the batteries and memory is very easy. Batteries are the very first things to die in a notebook (unless you spill liquids in them, or drop them), then hard drives, then the backlights slowly dim over time for the CF models. (Not sure if the LED ones will dim over time.) Optical drives seem to go after a few years too, so when the notebook's at home, I connect to an external USB one. This push towards the replace your machine when the battery wears out for notebooks does not win my loyalty. It's even worse for things like ipods, iphones, and ipads. It's more like you're renting them and paying for the year than buying them. And don't get me started on the locked-in "store" stuff. (Instead of getting ipod, or an iPhone, I added a micro sdhc card to my blackberry, which does have a replaceable battery. While it doesn't have the best OS and the nicest mp3 player, it's good enough for my needs, and it does have a physical keyboard.) Did you also notice how you can't expand the storage in these iDevices, while their android or blackberry counterparts all have microsdhc slots? I still have much older pre-Jobs 68K and PPC PowerBooks that still run to this day (though the batteries no longer work of course.) I recently wanted a desktop computer, so I built a nice Hackintosh instead of buying a macpro. The highest end MacPro at the time cost 2x as much and only offered a 2.3GHz quad CPU. The one I built has a 3.4GHz CPU, so it was a no-brainer. I would have done the same with the notebook if the Chimera software worked fully for something like a nice high end Thinkpad, it wouldn't surprise me if it will do so eventually. As long as open source drivers for Linux exist, they can be ported to work with OS X. I loved the old IBM Thinkpad hardware, not sure if the newer ones from Lenovo are built to the same high quality as IBM made them. Hopefully they are. They're easily $1000 less for roughly the same configuration. From toby at pdp11.co.uk Fri Oct 7 06:52:55 2011 From: toby at pdp11.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:52:55 +0100 Subject: Running 110V PDP-11 in a 220V world Message-ID: I've just got hold of a pair of PDP-11/35s that have 110V power supplies. What is the collectives view on the best way of running these in the UK? Is it safe to use a step down transformer (one of these for example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3-KVA-SITE-TRANSFORMER-110-VOLT-110V-UK-SUPPLY-3-3KVA-/400198971898?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5d2db7b1fa) or can I change the setup of the PSU to work from 220V? Many thanks, Toby From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 7 08:09:31 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 06:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/06/2011 06:11 PM, TeoZ wrote: >>>> Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced platforms >>>> you cannot service. People here complain about Intel/Microsoft but I >>>> think Jobs was 100 time worse in his my way or the highway approach to >>>> computing. >>> >>> Most people who eat at McDonald's frequently would call a $75 dinner >>> at a high-end steak house to be "overpriced". >>> >>> Just sayin'.. >> >> Yea, few people can sell a McDonalds double cheeseburger with an Apple >> logo on it in a pretty box for $75 and call it a steak. > > Yes, lots of people think a MacBook is the same as, say, the average Dell. > Their song changes very abruptly when they actually handle one. ;) > Now if they'd just make a MacBook with buckling spring keys.. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 7 08:16:04 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:16:04 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E8EFB94.1040409@atarimuseum.com> Quite frankly, anything over a 13" laptop in my opinion is no longer a latop, its a fold up desktop computer.... some of these 17" "laptops" are just insane, you might as well be lugging a Compaq SLT around with you. Josh Dersch wrote: > On 10/6/2011 3:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/06/2011 06:11 PM, TeoZ wrote: >>> >>> Yea, few people can sell a McDonalds double cheeseburger with an Apple >>> logo on it in a pretty box for $75 and call it a steak. >> >> Yes, lots of people think a MacBook is the same as, say, the >> average Dell. Their song changes very abruptly when they actually >> handle one. ;) > > Depends on the model, I suppose. Back when the original MacBook Pro > was introduced I was in the market for a decent laptop and the MacBook > fit the bill. It looked damned sexy, had a ton of horsepower and > seemed pretty durable. > > It was indeed a very nice looking and very fast laptop but I was never > actually able to use it on my *lap* for very long -- it ran > *extremely* hot under anything more taxing than idle. The metal area > between the keyboard and the screen would get almost too hot to touch > under moderate loads and the underside was scorching hot as well. My > understanding is that this was a common complaint with this particular > model. > > I'm sure they've worked out that particular problem since then :). > > - Josh > > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 08:27:19 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:27:19 -0400 Subject: FOR SALE: HP-2000A minicomputer from 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8EFE37.2060706@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> What is in the gas tank ? >> >> helium > > If that message ended up on a motor car mailing list, it would get soem > very odd comments... Actually, if I had answered the question, it would have read something like: "What is in the gas tank ?" "Gas." Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 08:45:03 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:45:03 -0400 Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <20111005214850.S60620@shell.lmi.net> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> <20111005214850.S60620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E8F025F.5090301@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > But, when I was doing the Honda book (a non-computer project 30+ years > ago), my publisher insisted that I was "breaking the rule". We also > faught about "burnt valve" V "burned valve". And wherever I wrote "tighten > til snug", he wanted to change it to "till"! > So, I changed all instances to "until". What would this editor have done with the works of e.e. cummings? Peace... Sridhar From spedraja at ono.com Fri Oct 7 08:45:37 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 15:45:37 +0200 Subject: Running 110V PDP-11 in a 220V world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congrats. When one of them would take space in excess stay in touch ;-) Jokes apart, I live in Spain. We have 220V here. I use one simply (10 centimeters wide) transformer from 220 to 125-110volts. You can purchase it yet for not so much money. I got too another one similar but more wide and heavy to supply current to four DEC items working at 110V. This last was more expensive but affordable. Finally, have in mind the 50-60 hertzs matter. Regards Sergio 2011/10/7 Tobias Russell > I've just got hold of a pair of PDP-11/35s that have 110V power supplies. > What is the collectives view on the best way of running these in the UK? > > Is it safe to use a step down transformer (one of these for example: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3-KVA-SITE-TRANSFORMER-110-VOLT-110V-UK-SUPPLY-3-3KVA-/400198971898?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5d2db7b1fa > ) > or can I change the setup of the PSU to work from 220V? > > Many thanks, > Toby > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 08:50:21 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:50:21 -0400 Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a > double-sided boot disk. :) It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a single-sided drive will happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So couldn't you boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, and also iff all of the data used in the bootstrap is on the first side? Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 7 09:12:56 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 07:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> References: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a >> double-sided boot disk. :) > > It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a single-sided drive will > happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So couldn't you > boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, and also iff all of > the data used in the bootstrap is on the first side? > I really don't know. I haven't found a whole lot of detailed information about the machine. I did learn that the 12 can be upgraded to a 14 by adding double-sided drives an another 64k of RAM. I'll likely pick up the machine tonight on the way home and take a peek. If I can get it for less than $20, it would be worth it. If nothing else I can clean it up and try to flip it on eBay. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 11:36:49 2011 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> Message-ID: <1318005409.56490.YahooMailNeo@web111305.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 11:58:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 09:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8F025F.5090301@gmail.com> References: <8d43a72750684e67524f4976075113d9@cs.ubc.ca> <20111004161549.X5334@shell.lmi.net> <5eac7fab0aed854b0b640e63b7b8e886@cs.ubc.ca> <20111005105938.T39258@shell.lmi.net> <4E8D1259.2010801@neurotica.com> <20111005214850.S60620@shell.lmi.net> <4E8F025F.5090301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111007095209.G17982@shell.lmi.net> > > But, when I was doing the Honda book (a non-computer project 30+ years > > ago), my publisher insisted that I was "breaking the rule". We also > > faught about "burnt valve" V "burned valve". And wherever I wrote "tighten > > til snug", he wanted to change it to "till"! > > So, I changed all instances to "until". On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > What would this editor have done with the works of e.e. cummings? The "editor"s were worse than the publisher. But, the "creative" accounting was even more impressive. But, such practices are not unknown in publishing. Art Buchwald (MAJOR syndicated columnist (Washington Post)?) successfully sued the producers of Eddie Murphy's "Coming To America" for plagiarism and copyright violation; do YOU believe that that movie did not make a profit?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Oct 7 11:59:25 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:59:25 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> On 10/7/2011 4:08 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 10/07/2011 01:34 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Depends on the model, I suppose. Back when the original MacBook Pro >> was introduced I was in the market for a decent laptop and the MacBook >> fit the bill. It looked damned sexy, had a ton of horsepower and >> seemed pretty durable. >> >> It was indeed a very nice looking and very fast laptop but I was never >> actually able to use it on my *lap* for very long -- it ran >> *extremely* hot under anything more taxing than idle. The metal area >> between the keyboard and the screen would get almost too hot to touch >> under moderate loads and the underside was scorching hot as well. My >> understanding is that this was a common complaint with this particular >> model. > I have one of those. The problem is two fold. First, the heatsink is > on the bottom of the laptop - it's a big huge pair of copper pipes that > touch the CPU, GPU and northbridge and connect them to the bottom of the > case and the two blower fans, so heat mostly goes to the bottom. Of > course, hot air rises, so it escapes through the vent between the > display and the keyboard, and some comes out of the keyboard. > > The 2nd problem is that these models were the ones that had thermal > compound put on them with a trowel, which cooked these poor beasts. > > See: > > http://blog.johnkutlu.com/search/label/thermal%20paste and > https://discussions.apple.com/message/12223482?messageID=12223482#12223482?messageID=12223482 > > These, which have ATI GPUs, and a few later nVidia models develp issues > with their GPUs due to the heat. The issue is supposedly that they get > so hot that the BGA connectors start to have their solder melt and show > display artifacts. > > The extra heat tends to cook other things such as batteries and hard > drives too. I'd add one extra "fold" :). The fan controller(s) in the first Macbook Pro were set to almost *never* turn them on. The fans ran at extremely low speeds even when the machine was baking your pants to your legs. I picture this as another case of Jobs' "ideals vs. engineering" (see also: Apple III, G4 Cube) -- "This thing needs to be silent!" At any rate, it only took a few months for some hackers to build a tool you could use to manually throttle the fans. After goosing them up by about 25% the machine became much cooler. (And it was still pretty quiet.) (Incidentally, I did attempt replacing the thermal compound on my unit about three weeks after buying it. That was nerve-wracking, I don't usually like to void warranties on $2k items that I've just bought. Replacing the thermal compound didn't end up making much of a difference for me.) - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 12:04:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 10:04:26 -0700 Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> References: , , <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E8ECEAA.24999.38E33B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2011 at 9:50, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a single-sided drive > will happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So > couldn't you boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, > and also iff all of the data used in the bootstrap is on the first > side? Yes, that's sometimes the case; it depends very much on how the double-sided software organizes information. Today, we assume that the organization will be side-to-side (i.e. the head alternates before the cylinder number increases), but that was far from universal in the CP/M world. Often, it was the case that data storage progressed though all the cylinders on the first side, then the second side, but in reverse. Sometimes instead of reversing, the system would begin again, storing data on the second side with the first cylinder. And sometimes, storage started in the middle cylinder, alternating heads and progressing outwards in both directions. By far, the most common was our "normal" order of today. And it's not possible to store all of what's needed to boot CP/M on a single track (i.e. single side of a single cylinder). As far as the Bondwell, I'll have to check my notes if anyone's really interested. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 13:17:01 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> References: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111007110007.O17982@shell.lmi.net> > > Well played sir! However, I doubt a single-sided drive can grok a > > double-sided boot disk. :) On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a single-sided drive will > happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So couldn't > you boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, and also iff > all of the data used in the bootstrap is on the first side? Not exactly "happily". Sectors, certainly. But, files? The directory starts on track 0 side A, but continues onto track 0 side B, and even a simple "DIR" command will give errors. If the disk is not fragmented, than any file larger than one track (4.5K on 360k and 720K) will continue onto the second side. If it IS fragmented, then clusters are distributed semi-randomly, and "half" will be on second side. SOME CP/M double sided formats use all of the first side, and THEN use the second side. On THOSE formats, barring fragmentation, a single sided drive can "happily" read the first half of the contents, without even noticing a problem. Sometimes it uses the second side starting at track 0, 1, 2, or 3 of side B, sometimes it uses the second side starting at the highest track (34, 39, 79, 76) side B. Some other formats use both sides of cylinder 0 before going on to cylinder 1. Some of those (such as MS-DOS) use all of the sectors on side A of that cylinder and then all of the sectors of side B. Some other formats, treat both sides of the cylinder as one track, and may even end up alternating sides within the cylinder, depending on the "interleave". I do NOT remember which "side-pattern" the Bondwell 14 was, which is important to THIS part of the discussion. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 13:39:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> References: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111007113739.G17982@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It depends. On MS-DOS, isn't it the case that a single-sided drive will > happily read any data that is on the first side of a disk? So couldn't > you boot from a double-sided boot disk if this is the case, and also iff > all of the data used in the bootstrap is on the first side? sectors V files perhaps an example of data V information On MS-DOS, you can NOT boot from a double sided bootdisk in a single sided drive. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 13:56:19 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 11:56:19 -0700 Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: <4E8ECEAA.24999.38E33B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com>, <4E8ECEAA.24999.38E33B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E8EE8E3.9853.9F531C@cclist.sydex.com> On the other hand, if you have the Bondwell double-sided system disk, it's pretty straightforward to create any variation of it you'd like. Just sharpen your pencil. A disassembler might be helpful, but many manufacturers included the source code for their CBIOS in the standard distribution. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:06:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 20:06:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> from "TeoZ" at Oct 6, 11 05:10:03 pm Message-ID: > >> > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). > >> > >> He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. > >> > > > > I don't think there's any call for that sort of comment. I am no fan of > > Apple's products or policies, but I am saddendd by the death of somebody > > who had ideas and implemented them (and you can't claim that Apple's > > products have not been a commercial success). We need more people who are > > prepared to 'do things differently' IMHO. > > > > -tony > > > Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced platforms you > cannot service. People here complain about Intel/Microsoft but I think Jobs To be fair, I don't think Apple machines re any harder to service than otehrs of approximatly the same age. OK, there are no official Mac scheamtics, but that's true of other machines to, and they're not that hard to reverse-engineer. Modern stuff is going to be very dificult to fix, no matter who it comes from. > was 100 time worse in his my way or the highway approach to computing. I have no liking of Apple products : I regard them as being difficult to do anything useful with (my esperience is that they make easy jobs trivial and diffiuclt jobs impossible). I don't care _at all_ for the hardware design of the machines I've looked at (Apple ][ and early Macs). I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. I don't like the very odd disk format of The Apple ][, for example I don't like the fact that early Mac OSs didn't have any form of command line I don't like the fact that there has to be only one way to do something. That was supposed to simplify the Mac user interface, it drives me mad. I find the 'gesture based' user interface of some modern Apple products to be very clumsy. I don't like the way Apple ties you in to their products, software, etc. If I buy a computer, it's mine, to do what I like with and to run whatever programs I like on. I don't like the way they make things hacker-unfriendly -- hard to open cases, no expansion slots, no proper documetnion, etc. So, no, I am not going to be buying any Apple product. But I am also sorry that Steve Jobs is dead. I do not wish illness or death on anyone. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:10:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 20:10:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: <20111006141519.W89988@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 11 02:15:55 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > Secondly, let's think about that power brick. The transfomer rarely > > fails, normally the (soldered in) fuse goes first if there's a short on > > the secodnary side (note that a shorted smoothing capacitor or rectifier > > on the CPU board will blow this fuse). So the only things you're likely > > to have to replace i nthe brick are the fuse and the diodes. Are those > > really that hard to find? My junk box is full of 'em... > > There are no expensive, hard to find parts in there to protect that fuse! No, it's not an SMPSU... A dead short in one of the smoothing caapcitors in the TRS-80 may well kill the associated rectifier (either the 4-diode bridge on the CPU board or the 2 diods in te brick), but the fuse will almost certainly blow before the transformer fails. Just don't short out the fuse to get it going again. Next time you have a fault, the transformer may burn out. [Incidentally, I had an SMPUS where there were 3 power transistors, half a doxen small-signal transistors, a controller IC, a couple of power resistors and a PCB track all protecting the mains fuse. Or at least all those failed, some transistors blown apart, track melted, etc, before the fuse failed] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:16:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 20:16:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 6, 11 05:39:50 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 5:10 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > Sure we need more people to design locked in closed overpriced platforms you > > cannot service. > > I've repaired broken Mac hardware - it's not as easy as for some other As have I, several times. Much of the time it's simple things that fail anyway. > platforms (like the Amiga, one of the last home computer makers I can > think of that published their schematics) but one can infer a lot from > inspecting a board and reverse-engineering some schematics. Indeed. There's enough information around to figure a lot of the hardware out, at least of the older machines. [..] > I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, but just As you all know, I _insist_ on it, which is noe reason I buy very little new stuff. I don;t think Apple is any worse than most other manufcatures in this respect -- try getting an ASIC for just about any modern computer... > because something isn't doesn't mean I would _never_ buy it. Most > people who buy cars don't do their own maintenance (I do stuff I can I am probably unique in that I've never learnt to drive, but I am happy to do just about any repair on the family car (the only thing I can't do is the air conditioning. Everything else I'll manage) > and pay other people for stuff I can't or prefer not to). These days, > most people don't do their own computer/electronic maintenance either. > They buy something, use it, break it or get distracted by the new > shiny, then replace it. They just don't care that it's difficult to > fix. They care how shiny it is. I'm happy to be more than a passive > consumer, but that's a minority position. I wonder what the fraction of people here is who do all their own repairs? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:22:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 20:22:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <1317949266.4e8e4f5294ee0@secure.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Oct 6, 11 06:01:06 pm Message-ID: > i have the skill but not the tool to do it, I had thought about using my regular > lockpicks and make a custom tension wrench... not really -that- much harder than > a 6 pin regular lock. > > no numbers on the face of the lock, one of the housemates is a locksmith and > could cut me a key with the code.he is out of town doing some training this week > and I was hoping to get in and take a look inside.... may have to wait anyways, > he might have a tubular pick in his truck. > I will revise my earlier suggestions and suggest you use 'patience' ;-) Since you know somebody who either can pick the lock without damage, or who probably knows another locksith who can do it, I'd wait. No point in risking permanent damage to the case just to get inside a few days sooner. Incidentally, as I am sure you know, if you pick an Ace lock with the tubular lockpick, you end up with the sliders on the pick positioned so as to pack the pick into the key for the lock. You can then measure hteir positions to work out how to cut the key. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:40:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 20:40:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Running 110V PDP-11 in a 220V world In-Reply-To: from "Tobias Russell" at Oct 7, 11 12:52:55 pm Message-ID: > > I've just got hold of a pair of PDP-11/35s that have 110V power supplies. > What is the collectives view on the best way of running these in the UK? Which mounting box ? (there's a 10.5" one (BA11-K IIRC) where the PCBs go in from the top with a PSU on the back or a 21" one (BA11-F ?) where the PCBs go in from the left side and with a separate H742 PSU in the rack). Do you have any periperhals for them? THere are 2 main issues. Voltage and Frequency. AFAIK the PSUS in these mahcines all have trnasofomres with 2 primary windings which are wired in series for 230V and parallel for 115V. The fans are 115V and run off the trnasformer primary (acting as an autotransformer)_ for 230V mains. There may also be a small transformer as part of the power control circuitry. Looking at hte printset nad compairing the wiring for 115V or 230V mains shold tell you what to do. I can take a look if you let me know eaactly what you have. The differnece in mains frequency is not an issue for the CPU unit. Some peripehrals most certianly care abvout it (the RK05 disk, for exmaple, the disk speed is set my the mains frequency, so there's a pulley change if you go between 50Hz and 60Hz). There is a 'line time clock' (I think it's an option in the 11/35, but most have it). This generates an interrupt every (half?-) cycle of the mains. Most OSes have a configuration option for 50Hz mains, there's no hardware change. > > Is it safe to use a step down transformer (one of these for example: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3-KVA-SITE-TRANSFORMER-110-VOLT-110V-UK-SUPPLY-3-3KVA-/400198971898?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5d2db7b1fa) That sort of trnasofmrer is very useful!. However, there is an electrical differeice between its output and normal US mains, namely that US mains has one side (neutraL) connected to safety grounmd, these trnasofmers have the centre tap of the secondary connected to groud. This is not an issue with PDP11s, though. THey will run fine from such a trnasformer (I've done it for testing). > or can I change the setup of the PSU to work from 220V? I suspect you can rewire the PSU, You will not have to replace the large transoformer or the fans, you might have to replace the little trnasofrmrer for the power control. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:51:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 20:51:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8EFB94.1040409@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Oct 7, 11 09:16:04 am Message-ID: > > Quite frankly, anything over a 13" laptop in my opinion is no longer a > latop, its a fold up desktop computer.... some of these 17" "laptops" > are just insane, you might as well be lugging a Compaq SLT around with you. IIRC< the Amstrad PPC machines (which had a tiny LCD dispaly, about 6" diagonal) were actually wider than a PDP11 front panel. Some laptop... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:54:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 20:54:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <1318005409.56490.YahooMailNeo@web111305.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "steve" at Oct 7, 11 09:36:49 am Message-ID: > > // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, > > Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. > Oh don't get me started. I regard the uman body as being one of the worst deisgns I've ever come across (and not just for this reason). -tony From ray at arachelian.com Fri Oct 7 15:30:16 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 16:30:16 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E8F6158.5050809@arachelian.com> > On 10/7/2011 4:08 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > I'd add one extra "fold" :). The fan controller(s) in the first > Macbook Pro were set to almost *never* turn them on. The fans ran at > extremely low speeds even when the machine was baking your pants to > your legs. I picture this as another case of Jobs' "ideals vs. > engineering" (see also: Apple III, G4 Cube) -- "This thing needs to be > silent!" At any rate, it only took a few months for some hackers to > build a tool you could use to manually throttle the fans. After > goosing them up by about 25% the machine became much cooler. (And it > was still pretty quiet.) Off the top of my head, SMC Fan Control is the one I used: http://www.eidac.de/?p=207 These days I use "Fan Control" which is a control pannel for System Preferences. http://www.lobotomo.com/products/FanControl/ > > (Incidentally, I did attempt replacing the thermal compound on my unit > about three weeks after buying it. That was nerve-wracking, I don't > usually like to void warranties on $2k items that I've just bought. > Replacing the thermal compound didn't end up making much of a > difference for me.) It made some difference in mine, but not a lot. The Fan control app did a lot more. :) From ray at arachelian.com Fri Oct 7 15:38:21 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 16:38:21 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F633D.30405@arachelian.com> > > I have no liking of Apple products : > > I regard them as being difficult to do anything useful with (my esperience > is that they make easy jobs trivial and diffiuclt jobs impossible). > I find that hard to believe. These beasties run Unix, you can script almost anything. Even the GUI is scriptable. I prefer OS X or Linux over the evil OS from Redmond. Or are you talking about pre-OS X? > I don't like the fact that early Mac OSs didn't have any form of command > line I absolutely agree with that. > > I find the 'gesture based' user interface of some modern Apple products > to be very clumsy. > I've no problems with using two fingers to signify right click, or to scroll, or pinch/zoom. They're easy to get used to. Though at home I prefer trackballs mostly because I use good Kensignton ones, and I'm very used to those. The tactile feedback is better than that of a trackpad. > I don't like the way Apple ties you in to their products, software, etc. > If I buy a computer, it's mine, to do what I like with and to run > whatever programs I like on. Absolutely agree with that. > I don't like the way they make things hacker-unfriendly -- hard to open > cases, no expansion slots, no proper documetnion, etc. Add proprietary screws, irreplaceable batteries, having to use a heat gun and suction cup to remove screens. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 7 15:40:33 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, >> >> Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. >> > > Oh don't get me started. I regard the uman body as being one of the worst > deisgns I've ever come across (and not just for this reason). > Yeah, I mean what engineer in their right mind would place a waste treatment plant right next to a recreation area? That's just nuts! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 15:52:58 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 17:52:58 -0300 Subject: Balancing cost and performance. was:Re: Steve Jobs -2011 References: Message-ID: <6E83E1B9B7C94DEB81ECD85397D423E5@portajara> > I don't care _at all_ for the hardware design of the machines I've looked > at (Apple ][ and early Macs). Being an so-hardware-inclined man, you should :) > I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. I > don't like the very odd disk format of The Apple ][, for example We must remember that, at that time, it was a HUGE progress on floppies. IIRC, Woz did with 5 ICs what was done with 11 or more, and made the 5 1/4 floppy WAY cheaper. It was some simple idea, but a wonderfull achievement anyways. I have lots of respect for Woz, because of his hacks. It was a way to make the floppy drive more popular, and he was very successfull on that. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Oct 7 17:10:42 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 17:10:42 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F78E2.5090300@jbrain.com> On 10/7/2011 2:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder what the fraction of people here is who do all their own > repairs? I *can* repair all the stuff here, but I *choose* not to, for "value of my time" reasons. Jim From blkline at attglobal.net Fri Oct 7 17:20:59 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 18:20:59 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F7B4B.9010605@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/07/2011 03:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Oh don't get me started. I regard the uman body as being one of the > worst deisgns I've ever come across (and not just for this reason). > That's because it wasn't designed. It's the product of stepwise refinement carried out over billions of years of iterations. I wonder how bloated and awful current software designs will be after a simliar period of stepwise refinement? BK -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFOj3tLCFu3bIiwtTARAs5IAJ0RxIbmIBeCaZxq4QNDeTcCiW03GACfUfpV maR+7FdzLZkjhVk3yM7DM7o= =3QMN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From useddec at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 18:02:35 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 18:02:35 -0500 Subject: Running 110V PDP-11 in a 220V world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you have a BA11-K box, the plug, circuit breaker and relay are all that need to be replaced. DEC sent me parts to convert the AC input box from 120 to 220 years ago. This was a field replacable unit ready for field service, used in a system already set up for 220. I'm not sure about the fans, and the print set should be checked. Paul On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I've just got hold of a pair of PDP-11/35s that have 110V power supplies. >> What is the collectives view on the best way of running these in the UK? > > Which mounting box ? (there's a 10.5" one (BA11-K IIRC) where the PCBs go > in from the top with a PSU on the back or a 21" one (BA11-F ?) where the > PCBs go in from the left side and with a separate H742 PSU in the rack). > > Do you have any periperhals for them? > > THere are 2 main issues. Voltage and Frequency. > > AFAIK the PSUS in these mahcines all have trnasofomres with 2 primary > windings which are wired in series for 230V and parallel for 115V. The > fans are 115V and run off the trnasformer primary (acting as an > autotransformer)_ for 230V mains. There may also be a small transformer > as part of the power control circuitry. > > Looking at hte printset nad compairing the wiring for 115V or 230V mains > shold tell you what to do. I can take a look if you let me know eaactly > what you have. > > The differnece in mains frequency is not an issue for the CPU unit. Some > peripehrals most certianly care abvout it (the RK05 disk, for exmaple, > the disk speed is set my the mains frequency, so there's a pulley change > if you go between 50Hz and 60Hz). > > There is a 'line time clock' (I think it's an option in the 11/35, but > most have it). This generates an interrupt every (half?-) cycle of the > mains. Most OSes have a configuration option for 50Hz mains, there's no > hardware change. > >> >> Is it safe to use a step down transformer (one of these for example: >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3-KVA-SITE-TRANSFORMER-110-VOLT-110V-UK-SUPPLY-3-3KVA-/400198971898?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5d2db7b1fa) > > That sort of trnasofmrer is very useful!. However, there is an electrical > differeice between its output and normal US mains, namely that US mains > has one side (neutraL) connected to safety grounmd, these trnasofmers > have the centre tap of the secondary connected to groud. This is not an > issue with PDP11s, though. THey will run fine from such a trnasformer > (I've done it for testing). > >> or can I change the setup of the PSU to work from 220V? > > I suspect you can rewire the PSU, You will not have to replace the large > transoformer or the fans, you might have to replace the little > trnasofrmrer for the power control. > > -tony > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 7 19:02:25 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:02:25 -0400 Subject: Throwaway devices, dead batteries - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E8F9311.8050608@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/11 7:08 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > ... > Batteries are the very first things to die in a notebook (unless you > spill liquids in them, or drop them), then hard drives, then the > backlights slowly dim over time for the CF models. (Not sure if the LED Over a _long_ time, though (5+ years has not impacted the usability of my Powerbooks much, and my wife's Macbook is fine after 4 years). > ones will dim over time.) Optical drives seem to go after a few years > too, so when the notebook's at home, I connect to an external USB one. > > This push towards the replace your machine when the battery wears out > for notebooks does not win my loyalty. It's even worse for things like > ipods, iphones, and ipads. It's more like you're renting them and > paying for the year than buying them. It's even worse. They don't want you to wait until the battery dies! The game seems to shrink the replacement cycle ever shorter. Do people keep their devices for more than six months these days?! What an insane, unsustainable foolishness. > And don't get me started on the > locked-in "store" stuff. ... > I recently wanted a desktop computer, so I built a nice Hackintosh > instead of buying a macpro. The highest end MacPro at the time cost 2x > as much and only offered a 2.3GHz quad CPU. In April I paid $1800 for an 8 core 3GHz Xeon Mac Pro (used, good condition), with drives and 8GB. --Toby > The one I built has a > 3.4GHz CPU, so it was a no-brainer.... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 7 19:05:04 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:05:04 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <1318005409.56490.YahooMailNeo@web111305.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <1318005409.56490.YahooMailNeo@web111305.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E8F93B0.5090109@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/11 12:36 PM, steve wrote: > // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, > > Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. > One of the things that still amazes me about modern medicine is that now, it frequently is. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 7 19:08:28 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:08:28 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/11 12:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > ... The fan controller(s) in the first Macbook > Pro were set to almost *never* turn them on. The fans ran at extremely > low speeds even when the machine was baking your pants to your legs. I > picture this as another case of Jobs' "ideals vs. engineering" (see > also: Apple III, G4 Cube) -- "This thing needs to be silent!" ... On the whole, he was right. Passive cooling was sufficient for the Lisa, the original classic Mac, and the G4 Cube. And people still hate fans. Apart from the noise, a 20c fan frequently kills a $1000 computer or a $200 video card (thanks China!) When critical cooling components can fail and destroy expensive parts without warning, that's a serious design error. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 7 19:11:14 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:11:14 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F9522.803@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/11 3:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >... > I have no liking of Apple products : > ... > I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? SCSI? This is one of the most egregious and ridiculous lies that people tell about Apple. > I > don't like the very odd disk format of The Apple ][, for example > > I don't like the fact that early Mac OSs didn't have any form of command > line Eh, it didn't matter unless you were accustomed to a command line, and the Mac's targer user certainly was not. You are not the classic Mac's target user, clearly. "The computer for the rest of us," remember? > > I don't like the fact that there has to be only one way to do something. > That was supposed to simplify the Mac user interface, it drives me mad. > ... > > -tony > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 7 19:12:34 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:12:34 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F9572.1040608@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/11 3:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, >> >> Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. >> > > Oh don't get me started. I regard the uman body as being one of the worst > deisgns I've ever come across (and not just for this reason). How do you feel about Darwinian selection? --Toby > > -tony > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 7 19:23:01 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 17:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bondwell 12 update + new scans... Message-ID: I stopped off to pick up the Bondwell and discovered two things - it DOES have a couple of disks tucked into the little slot underneath the drives, and the proprietor may want as much as $75 for the machine. The employee didn't know for sure and the machine wasn't priced. The person thought the price was "something crazy". I told him if it _was_ $75, it wasn't crazy, it was insane. I'm hoping I don't have a local version of wiredforservice or computerhistorymuseum on my hands. *sigh* I left my contact information - if the guy wants more than $20, he'll enjoy keeping the machine. On to the goodies... I've added a Z-System software catalog and issues 1, 3, 4, and 5 of the Z-Letter as well as an issue of ComputerLand magazine. Hit http://www.retroarchive.org to check 'em out. tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 7 19:27:03 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 17:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F9572.1040608@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E8F9572.1040608@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > On 07/10/11 3:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, >>> >>> Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. >>> >> >> Oh don't get me started. I regard the uman body as being one of the worst >> deisgns I've ever come across (and not just for this reason). > > How do you feel about Darwinian selection? > > --Toby ....I keep hoping it'll catch up with you. Soon. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 19:30:19 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 17:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OSI 560Z card (PDP-8 emulation on OSI) info / software Message-ID: <1318033819.6508.YahooMailNeo@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I'm looking for any information on the OSI 560Z card.? This was an OSI plug-in card that had an intersil/Harris IM6100 chip, and a Z-80 chip both under control of the 6502 Host CPU.? The card also had 64K of RAM on board, which could be accessed by the 6502 via a sliding 4k window at a fixed address in the 6502 memory map.? This allowed emulation of a PDP-8 via the 6502.? I found the schematics on Mark's OSI page (http://osi.marks-lab.com/boards/boards.html), but I'd love to find the manual and software.? If anybody has a manual or software, and care to share it (and let me post it on my web site, http://osiweb.org), I'd be grateful. I just did a quick search, and found a similar query from 2004, but I think enough time has passed that some new lead may turn up. Happy classic computing! Dave From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 7 19:37:16 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 17:37:16 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <1318005409.56490.YahooMailNeo@web111305.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <1318005409.56490.YahooMailNeo@web111305.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Oct 7, at 9:36 AM, steve wrote: > // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, > > Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. In case you hadn't noticed, the human body is largely self-repairing. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 7 19:38:08 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 17:38:08 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Oct 7, at 12:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, >> >> Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. > Oh don't get me started. I regard the uman body as being one of the > worst > deisgns I've ever come across (and not just for this reason). The world awaits your improved model (an actual unit .. not just suggestions for improvements). It will be expected to be complete with all the capabilities of the old model (not just an old unit with some hacked-on improvements like an artificial knee joint). From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Oct 7 20:11:07 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 18:11:07 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> On 10/7/2011 5:08 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 07/10/11 12:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> ... The fan controller(s) in the first Macbook >> Pro were set to almost *never* turn them on. The fans ran at extremely >> low speeds even when the machine was baking your pants to your legs. I >> picture this as another case of Jobs' "ideals vs. engineering" (see >> also: Apple III, G4 Cube) -- "This thing needs to be silent!" ... > > On the whole, he was right. Passive cooling was sufficient for the > Lisa, the original classic Mac, and the G4 Cube. > He may have been right in theory (and where the available technology supported it) but he was incorrect in practice. Passive cooling works where passive cooling is sufficient. (And the G4 Cube definitely overheated.) Where it isn't sufficient, it doesn't work and you get laptops that are uncomfortable to use like the MacBook Pro in my example. > And people still hate fans. Apart from the noise, a 20c fan frequently > kills a $1000 computer or a $200 video card (thanks China!) So... buy a better fan? It'll last longer and be quieter! Fans are replaceable, a laptop that has suffered thermal component failure due to poor design, less so. > > When critical cooling components can fail and destroy expensive parts > without warning, that's a serious design error. When critical cooling components are left out for aesthetic reasons, that's a serious design error. - Josh > > --Toby > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 7 20:26:46 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:26:46 -0400 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/11 9:11 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 10/7/2011 5:08 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 07/10/11 12:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> ... The fan controller(s) in the first Macbook >>> Pro were set to almost *never* turn them on. The fans ran at extremely >>> low speeds even when the machine was baking your pants to your legs. I >>> picture this as another case of Jobs' "ideals vs. engineering" (see >>> also: Apple III, G4 Cube) -- "This thing needs to be silent!" ... >> >> On the whole, he was right. Passive cooling was sufficient for the >> Lisa, the original classic Mac, and the G4 Cube. >> > > He may have been right in theory (and where the available technology > supported it) but he was incorrect in practice. Passive cooling works > where passive cooling is sufficient. (And the G4 Cube definitely > overheated.) None of our Cubes overheated. Perhaps you are in a different climate. > Where it isn't sufficient, it doesn't work and you get > laptops that are uncomfortable to use like the MacBook Pro in my example. > >> And people still hate fans. Apart from the noise, a 20c fan frequently >> kills a $1000 computer or a $200 video card (thanks China!) > > So... buy a better fan? It'll last longer and be quieter! Fans are > replaceable, a laptop that has suffered thermal component failure due to > poor design, less so. Fans are only theoretically replaceable. In practice, at least in the PC and laptop world, nobody replaces them until the expensive part to which they are attached, dies. > >> >> When critical cooling components can fail and destroy expensive parts >> without warning, that's a serious design error. (This is the rule, not the exception.) > > When critical cooling components are left out for aesthetic reasons, > that's a serious design error. And where they are not: It's a design success. --Toby > > - Josh > >> >> --Toby >> > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 7 20:59:41 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 21:59:41 -0400 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> What was the deal with Jobs and fans anyway - none in the Apple ]['s, the Apple /// (I've now heard of 3 of them going on fire this year alone) --- The Mac and the iCube... what the heck?!?!? Fans aren't THAT damned loud for crying out loud... Jobs being Jobs - you'd think he would've reinvented the fan to make it silent and accommodate his needs. Toby Thain wrote: > On 07/10/11 9:11 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 10/7/2011 5:08 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 07/10/11 12:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> ... The fan controller(s) in the first Macbook >>>> Pro were set to almost *never* turn them on. The fans ran at extremely >>>> low speeds even when the machine was baking your pants to your legs. I >>>> picture this as another case of Jobs' "ideals vs. engineering" (see >>>> also: Apple III, G4 Cube) -- "This thing needs to be silent!" ... >>> >>> On the whole, he was right. Passive cooling was sufficient for the >>> Lisa, the original classic Mac, and the G4 Cube. >>> >> >> He may have been right in theory (and where the available technology >> supported it) but he was incorrect in practice. Passive cooling works >> where passive cooling is sufficient. (And the G4 Cube definitely >> overheated.) > > None of our Cubes overheated. Perhaps you are in a different climate. > > > Where it isn't sufficient, it doesn't work and you get >> laptops that are uncomfortable to use like the MacBook Pro in my >> example. >> >>> And people still hate fans. Apart from the noise, a 20c fan frequently >>> kills a $1000 computer or a $200 video card (thanks China!) >> >> So... buy a better fan? It'll last longer and be quieter! Fans are >> replaceable, a laptop that has suffered thermal component failure due to >> poor design, less so. > > Fans are only theoretically replaceable. In practice, at least in the > PC and laptop world, nobody replaces them until the expensive part to > which they are attached, dies. > >> >>> >>> When critical cooling components can fail and destroy expensive parts >>> without warning, that's a serious design error. > > (This is the rule, not the exception.) > >> >> When critical cooling components are left out for aesthetic reasons, >> that's a serious design error. > > And where they are not: It's a design success. > > --Toby > >> >> - Josh >> >>> >>> --Toby >>> >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 7 21:45:19 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 22:45:19 -0400 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E8FB93F.2050401@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/11 9:59 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > What was the deal with Jobs and fans anyway - none in the Apple ]['s, > the Apple /// (I've now heard of 3 of them going on fire this year > alone) --- The Mac and the iCube... what the heck?!?!? > > Fans aren't THAT damned loud for crying out loud... Jobs being Jobs - > you'd think he would've reinvented the fan to make it silent and > accommodate his needs. > Maybe it's not just about noise? --T From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 7 23:00:34 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 21:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <1318005409.56490.YahooMailNeo@web111305.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from steve at "Oct 7, 11 09:36:49 am" Message-ID: <201110080400.p9840Yni014284@floodgap.com> > > I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, > > Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. Oh, I dunno. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A straw vote only shows which way the hot air blows. -- O. Henry ----------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 7 23:03:33 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 21:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Oct 7, 11 09:59:25 am" Message-ID: <201110080403.p9843XbF012884@floodgap.com> > I'd add one extra "fold" :). The fan controller(s) in the first Macbook > Pro were set to almost *never* turn them on. And yet the fastest G5 and G4 models blew like wind tunnels. I own both an MDD G4 and a liquid-cooled quad G5 and they roar at full tilt. The G5 can outroar even my notoriously noisy POWER6. On the flip side, the iMac G4 (the "Luxo Jr" variety) was a very quiet machine. Even after adding a small fan to it, it is still very quiet and my iMac has never overheated. It ventilates quietly through the top of the "foot." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You have a magnetic personality. Avoid iron-based alloys. --------- From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 7 23:38:57 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 00:38:57 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110080400.p9840Yni014284@floodgap.com> References: <201110080400.p9840Yni014284@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E8FD3E1.60401@atarimuseum.com> I was opened 3 times in 2008-2009 and got a whole load of new parts for my heart - the Human Body is easily repairable --- its just that some replacement parts having been designed and/or made fully compatible.... yet :-) Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, >>> >> Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. >> > > Oh, I dunno. > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 00:56:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 22:56:18 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8FD3E1.60401@atarimuseum.com> References: <201110080400.p9840Yni014284@floodgap.com>, <4E8FD3E1.60401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E8F8392.25493.2FC42C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2011 at 0:38, someone wrote: > Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. The human body was made for the purpose of making more human bodies-- something it appears to do very well. Let's see your Macbook do that... --Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 01:30:52 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 17:30:52 +1100 Subject: Apple //c power brick failure Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> Some of them were able to be opened, there were hidden screws in the bottom >> of some, ?there were also some that were 2 piece plastic heat-fused? Or >> glued together. > > Does anyone know if the technique of tapping along the seam will work > with the Apple //c brick power supply? which to me shows no sign of > hidden screws and looks to me "almost" seamless. As no one jumped in regarding my query, I thought I would venture out along and try the tapping-along-the-seam technique previously described and see if I could break into the dead Apple //c power brick. The tapping technique worked very nicely, although I had to apply leverage with a screwdriver hammered into the seam to really crack the two halves apart. The scene of desolation inside revealed why it is dead-dead-dead, see pictures here: https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/AppleCPowerSupplyBrickFailure The smell is interesting too, it was nicely bottled up inside the sealed PSU until I opened it... From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 8 01:30:52 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 23:30:52 -0700 Subject: Pertec, MPI, and Ampex disk drives + Xenotron II Message-ID: <4E8FEE1C.6070809@jwsss.com> Pertec 310348669864 MPI 310349702429 Ampex 310349706855 something called a xenotron II with horrible screen rash 310349704482 (listed as xentron, which is a totall different operation) Might be something related to this listing: (from a google search from another list) http://users.monash.edu.au/~ralphk/xvc2-xenotron.html From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Oct 8 01:53:30 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 23:53:30 -0700 Subject: hard sector diskettes... In-Reply-To: <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0B0D4BF4-F01F-451E-A214-6C50B6573364@zipcon.net> i am now on the hunt for 10 sector disks for a northstar horizon. a few years back I purchased a bunch and they were stolen... I thought that my northstar had been stolen, but *happy dance* in the process of moving from one storage unit to another, what did I find... my horizon :) no media for it remains :( and the manuals are gone, don't remember if the thief that broke into my storage P*ssed on them or is they were taken at the time also. no sign of my morrow md3 or dec-rainbow :( did find a microvax 3100 and a 'HP' apollo 700 workstation. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 8 06:38:24 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 07:38:24 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E903630.3020200@arachelian.com> >> // I prefer the things I buy to be openable and repairable, >> >> Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. >> > Oh don't get me started. I regard the uman body as being one of the worst > deisgns I've ever come across (and not just for this reason). > > -tony > > That's because it wasn't designed. This is yet another data point showing how ill informed those who subscribe to an intelligent designer are. We are still adapted for an environment that hasn't existed for a few thousand years. Go back to a paleolithic diet and the same kind of exercise (not cardio), and you'll find modern diseases reversing and vanishing. Neolithic foods such as grains, legumes, artificial ingredients, colors, GMO foods, trans fats from corn, canola, safflower, soy, sunflower, enhanced and artificial, flavors, foods high in carbs and fructose, excitotoxins such as MSG in various forms, veganism, and modern environmental toxins are all factors that cause modern diseases such as heart disease, diabetes, cancer, alzheimers, osteoporosis, IBS, GERD, ADHD and so on. (Note that I didn't say go back to the paleolithic way of living, where you'd have to hunt and forage and be chased by tigers and other predators. Modern medicine is quite good at things such as mending bones, but not very much else.) From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 8 07:12:19 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 05:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F8392.25493.2FC42C1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110080400.p9840Yni014284@floodgap.com>, <4E8FD3E1.60401@atarimuseum.com> <4E8F8392.25493.2FC42C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Oct 2011 at 0:38, someone wrote: > >> Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. > > The human body was made for the purpose of making more human bodies-- > something it appears to do very well. > > Let's see your Macbook do that... > It seems to be good enough for the occasional, "Oh god, another f*cking mac fanboy" comment. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 8 07:13:51 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 05:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hard sector diskettes... In-Reply-To: <0B0D4BF4-F01F-451E-A214-6C50B6573364@zipcon.net> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> <0B0D4BF4-F01F-451E-A214-6C50B6573364@zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Geoff Reed wrote: > i am now on the hunt for 10 sector disks for a northstar horizon. a few > years back I purchased a bunch and they were stolen... I thought that my > northstar had been stolen, but *happy dance* in the process of moving > from one storage unit to another, what did I find... my horizon :) no > media for it remains :( and the manuals are gone, don't remember if the > thief that broke into my storage P*ssed on them or is they were taken at > the time also. > You might try Athana. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 8 12:27:17 2011 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 20:27:17 +0300 Subject: Replacing aging plastic parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Has anybody experience and instructions how to replace aging and breaking plastic parts. I would prefer replacement with metal parts not to repeat the problem later. The problem is in parts like sledges etc. but not in running mechanics. Any tools, methods etc. recommendations are welcome. Unfortunately my experience is more on the electronics side. I would see the replacement work as a nice hobby but I need the skills and tools first. BR Matti Nummi -- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 12:57:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 10:57:54 -0700 Subject: Replacing aging plastic parts In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E902CB2.26260.81D80D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2011 at 20:27, Matti Nummi wrote: > Has anybody experience and instructions how to replace aging and > breaking plastic parts. I would prefer replacement with metal parts > not to repeat the problem later. The problem is in parts like sledges > etc. but not in running mechanics. I sure others will have lots of advice, but speaking from my own experience, if the part has any level of detail, I like working in brass. Brass is relatively strong, non-magnetic, ductile, easy to machine, can be soft-or-hard ("brazed") soldered and will take a high polish and will naturally form a film of protective oxidation over time. It's comparatively expensive, but how much are you going to use? There are many alloys, some of which are easier to work with than others, so pick your stock carefully. I've made replacement parts for disk drives (one is a part on the latch mechanism for Tandon TM-100 disk drives that seems to break frequently.) Where mechanical strength matters, mild steel is just about the only practical alternative. If I need a flat plate of some sort, aluminum is always an option. But don't discard the idea of plastics entirely. Acrylics machine very well and will take paint readily. Polyester casting resin can be used to duplicate parts that can be expressed as a moldable shape. To do any job well, the proper tools are a necessity. Be prepared for some sweaty-palms dry-mouth moments. Even used quality machine tools aren't cheap. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Oct 8 13:05:08 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 11:05:08 -0700 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8FB93F.2050401@telegraphics.com.au> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> <4E8FB93F.2050401@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0F3A923F-5C74-4918-A84F-C1BFB61575AF@shiresoft.com> No it *is* about the noise. The acoustic specs on Macs are *really* tight. We fight against the specs all of the time. TTFN - Guy On Oct 7, 2011, at 7:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 07/10/11 9:59 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> What was the deal with Jobs and fans anyway - none in the Apple ]['s, >> the Apple /// (I've now heard of 3 of them going on fire this year >> alone) --- The Mac and the iCube... what the heck?!?!? >> >> Fans aren't THAT damned loud for crying out loud... Jobs being Jobs - >> you'd think he would've reinvented the fan to make it silent and >> accommodate his needs. >> > > Maybe it's not just about noise? > > --T > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 13:18:10 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:18:10 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110080403.p9843XbF012884@floodgap.com> References: <201110080403.p9843XbF012884@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E9093E2.3040905@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 12:03 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'd add one extra "fold" :). The fan controller(s) in the first Macbook >> Pro were set to almost *never* turn them on. > > And yet the fastest G5 and G4 models blew like wind tunnels. I own both > an MDD G4 and a liquid-cooled quad G5 and they roar at full tilt. The > G5 can outroar even my notoriously noisy POWER6. My G5 and Mac Pro 8 core are very quiet. What were you doing that caused them to fully fan-up? --Toby > > On the flip side, the iMac G4 (the "Luxo Jr" variety) was a very quiet > machine. Even after adding a small fan to it, it is still very quiet and > my iMac has never overheated. It ventilates quietly through the top of > the "foot." > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Oct 8 13:54:34 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:54:34 -0400 Subject: Replacing aging plastic parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E909C6A.1030209@atarimuseum.com> If you have access to the original mechanical drawings, you could get them put into Solidworks and there are tons of small CNC shops that can make you the part in metal, or you can get a part done in stereolithography if you want plastic, they have various types of resins that are nearly as strong as ABS Matti Nummi wrote: > Hi, > > Has anybody experience and instructions how to replace aging and breaking plastic parts. > I would prefer replacement with metal parts not to repeat the problem later. > The problem is in parts like sledges etc. but not in running mechanics. > > Any tools, methods etc. recommendations are welcome. > Unfortunately my experience is more on the electronics side. > > I would see the replacement work as a nice hobby but I need the skills and tools first. > > BR > Matti Nummi > -- > > > From dougcoward at hotmail.com Sat Oct 8 14:48:06 2011 From: dougcoward at hotmail.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 12:48:06 -0700 Subject: hard sector diskettes... Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Geoff Reed wrote: > i am now on the hunt for 10 sector disks for a northstar horizon. a few > years back I purchased a bunch and they were stolen... I thought that my > northstar had been stolen, but *happy dance* in the process of moving > from one storage unit to another, what did I find... my horizon :) no > media for it remains :( and the manuals are gone, don't remember if the > thief that broke into my storage P*ssed on them or is they were taken at > the time also. > Hi Geoff, If you don't mind a Do It Yourself project, back in 97 I posted instructions on how I turn soft sectored diskettes into 10 sector, hard sectored diskettes for my Horizon. You would just need one hard sectored diskette to use as a template. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1997-December/146757.html --Doug Coward Poulsbo, WA The new home of the Analog Museum and History Center is http://www.cowardstereoview.com/analog From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 8 14:56:59 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 12:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hard sector diskettes... In-Reply-To: <0B0D4BF4-F01F-451E-A214-6C50B6573364@zipcon.net> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> <0B0D4BF4-F01F-451E-A214-6C50B6573364@zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Geoff Reed wrote: > i am now on the hunt for 10 sector disks for a northstar horizon. a few > years back I purchased a bunch and they were stolen... I thought that my > northstar had been stolen, but *happy dance* in the process of moving > from one storage unit to another, what did I find... my horizon :) no > media for it remains :( and the manuals are gone, don't remember if the > thief that broke into my storage P*ssed on them or is they were taken at > the time also. > > no sign of my morrow md3 or dec-rainbow :( did find a microvax 3100 and > a 'HP' apollo 700 workstation. I find hard-sectored floppies from time to time in my storage unit. I'll make sure I look specifically for them next time I'm in there. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 15:03:05 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 16:03:05 -0400 Subject: SunBlade 100/Astra UMAX scanner in Redwood City - Last call - items go to electronic recycling tomorrow. - Fwd: Re: [rescue] Free SunBlade 100 Message-ID: <4E90AC79.2050908@telegraphics.com.au> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [rescue] Free SunBlade 100 Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 12:26:37 -0700 From: junkmail at crhhome.com Reply-To: The Rescue List To: suns-at-home at net-kitchen.com, rescue at sunhelp.org Last call - items go to electronic recycling tomorrow. --charles To: suns-at-home at net-kitchen.com, rescue at sunhelp.org Reply-to: charles at crhhome.com From: charles at crhhome.com Subject: Re: Free SunBlade 100 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:56:54 PDT." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <22712.1316905169.0 at locnar> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:59:30 -0700 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/mixed by demime 1.01d X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Here's the pic........... --charles charles at crhhome.com says: > Folks - these items are on my front prouch at the address below, whoever > wants them take them our they go in the dumpster. Call me at 6502611798 > if you want to check if they are still here. > > 1925 Vera ave, Redwood City, CA, 6502611798 > > --charles > > junkmail at crhhome.com says: > > > Free SunBlade 100 > > Astra UMAX 1200S scsi2 scanner - works with Suns > > Some scsi2 cables, cdrom, manuals > > > > U pick up at Redwood City - I will not ship > > > > > > > > --charles [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of IMG_6363.JPG"; x-unix-mode="0644] > Here's the pic........... > > --charles > > charles at crhhome.com says: > > > Folks - these items are on my front prouch at the address below, whoever > > wants them take them our they go in the dumpster. Call me at 6502611798 > > if you want to check if they are still here. > > > > 1925 Vera ave, Redwood City, CA, 6502611798 > > > > --charles > > > > junkmail at crhhome.com says: > > > > > Free SunBlade 100 > > > Astra UMAX 1200S scsi2 scanner - works with Suns > > > Some scsi2 cables, cdrom, manuals > > > > > > U pick up at Redwood City - I will not ship > > > > > > > > > > > > --charles > > > > > > > <> _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 15:19:41 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 16:19:41 -0400 Subject: Found a Bondwell 12... In-Reply-To: <20111007110007.O17982@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E8F039D.8070805@gmail.com> <20111007110007.O17982@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E90B05D.4010705@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Not exactly "happily". > Sectors, certainly. > But, files? The directory starts on track 0 side A, but continues onto > track 0 side B, and even a simple "DIR" command will give errors. If the > disk is not fragmented, than any file larger than one track (4.5K on 360k > and 720K) will continue onto the second side. If it IS fragmented, then > clusters are distributed semi-randomly, and "half" will be on second side. Tell that to my 5155 Portable Personal Computer. It has one double-sided drive and one single-sided one. I've successfully put a disk formatted and written in the double-sided drive into the single sided drive, run DIR, and even TYPEd files. Then some files didn't work and I realized I had the disk in the wrong drive. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 8 15:34:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 21:34:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing aging plastic parts In-Reply-To: from "Matti Nummi" at Oct 8, 11 08:27:17 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi=2C > > Has anybody experience and instructions how to replace aging and breaking p= > lastic parts. > I would prefer replacement with metal parts not to repeat the problem later= > . As do I, unless there re reasons it has to be plastic (for example electrical instulation) > The problem is in parts like sledges etc. but not in running mechanics. > > Any tools=2C methods etc. recommendations are welcome. It depends -- a lot -- on what uou are trying to make. Some parts can be cut from sheet metai with hand tools (the drive sled, for example may be able to be made from 2 pieces of metal stached on on top of the other, the top one a bit smaller. As regards machie ntools, a lathe is useful for making cylindrical parts (spacers, spindles, etc), a milling machine for pars with flat faces (e.g. putting the 'step' around the side of a drive sled. Some small lathes can be used for small milling operations too, for example by adding a vertical slide. Be warned that using machine tools can be a hobby in itself :-) > Unfortunately my experience is more on the electronics side. > > I would see the replacement work as a nice hobby but I need the skills and = > tools first. Hmm... I would start by reading a few books on model engineering, small lathe use, etc, just to see if it's the sort of thing you want to get into. Then maybe consider buying a small lathe (a good one is not small in price!) and learning to use it. Don't epxect to buy a machine tool and turn out replacement parts for your classic computers the same day -- or even the same month! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 8 15:09:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 21:09:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F633D.30405@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Oct 7, 11 04:38:21 pm Message-ID: > > > > > I have no liking of Apple products : > > > > I regard them as being difficult to do anything useful with (my esperience > > is that they make easy jobs trivial and diffiuclt jobs impossible). > > > I find that hard to believe. These beasties run Unix, you can script > almost anything. Even the GUI is scriptable. I prefer OS X or Linux > over the evil OS from Redmond. > Or are you talking about pre-OS X? Yes, I was thinking about pre-OSX for desktop Apple machines. I am told that OSX does have an accessible unix shell :-). However, their portable devices don't seem to have any such shell, they don't seem to have anything that makes them useful for difficult tasks > > I don't like the way they make things hacker-unfriendly -- hard to open > > cases, no expansion slots, no proper documetnion, etc. > > Add proprietary screws, irreplaceable batteries, having to use a heat How propretary? I've been known ot make special tools in the past to get screws out. But yes, I prefer manufacturers who use something standard (I do regard Torx as standard, in fact I like them). How are the batteries irreplacable? I've seen replacement batteries for Ipods, on sale over here/ > gun and suction cup to remove screens. > :-(. Mind you, some of the HP calculators Ilove ar heat-staked together (or at lest have the PCB heat-staked in place). Other manufactuers may not be very repairer-friendly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 8 15:17:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 21:17:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011u In-Reply-To: <4E8F78E2.5090300@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Oct 7, 11 05:10:42 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/7/2011 2:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I wonder what the fraction of people here is who do all their own > > repairs? > > I *can* repair all the stuff here, but I *choose* not to, for "value of > my time" reasons. Ah, that's one reason I _do_ repair everything myself. It's quicker (both in terms of the time to the thing being fixed and the time I have to spend bothering with it). I'd rather be fixing the thing than trying to convince some repairman to do it... And, even if I say so myself, things I've fixed tend to stay fixed... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 8 15:22:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 21:22:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F9522.803@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Oct 7, 11 08:11:14 pm Message-ID: > > I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. > > Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? SCSI? > > This is one of the most egregious and ridiculous lies that people tell > about Apple. I seem to rememebr there were some issues where the original Apple SCSI, as on the Mac+ wasn't quite the same as the rest of the world. I also remmeber that Apple Nubus was not the same as the Nubus standard. > > I don't like the fact that early Mac OSs didn't have any form of command > > line > > Eh, it didn't matter unless you were accustomed to a command line, and Yes it does. The original Mac OSs didn't have any real way of automating tasks. A computer is good at doing the same thing over and over again with slight changes. Not to have that facility makes the machine essentialyl useuless to me. > the Mac's targer user certainly was not. You are not the classic Mac's > target user, clearly. Clearly not. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 16:19:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 14:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111008141915.V52150@shell.lmi.net> > > I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. > > Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? THAT won't impress Tony. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 16:39:05 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:39:05 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 4:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. >> >> Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? SCSI? >> >> This is one of the most egregious and ridiculous lies that people tell >> about Apple. > > I seem to rememebr there were some issues where the original Apple SCSI, > as on the Mac+ wasn't quite the same as the rest of the world. See, that's the difference between people who use Macs (and used them the time) and the rest. Your superstition isn't true. There is perfect interoperability with SCSI disks, tapes, scanners, printers, etc. This was years in advance of the PC world noticing SCSI, of course... While we're talking standard interfaces, Apple also introduced IEEE-1394 to their desktops and laptops in advance of the rest. > > I also remmeber that Apple Nubus was not the same as the Nubus standard. > > >>> I don't like the fact that early Mac OSs didn't have any form of command >>> line >> >> Eh, it didn't matter unless you were accustomed to a command line, and > > Yes it does. The original Mac OSs didn't have any real way of automating > tasks. A computer is good at doing the same thing over and over again > with slight changes. Not to have that facility makes the machine > essentialyl useuless to me. If you'd used a Mac you know that automation facilities existed in System 7, 8 and 9, and of course OS X, and there was third party automation at least in System 6. There were also command lines available, not least the well respected MPW shell, if you wanted one. --Toby > >> the Mac's targer user certainly was not. You are not the classic Mac's >> target user, clearly. > > Clearly not. > > -tony > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 16:42:26 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:42:26 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111008141915.V52150@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111008141915.V52150@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E90C3C2.6000703@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. >> >> Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? > > THAT won't impress Tony. > > > Love it or hate it, it is a universal standard. :) --T From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 8 16:55:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:55:09 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90C3C2.6000703@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111008141915.V52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90C3C2.6000703@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E90C6BD.3030904@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2011 05:42 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. >>> >>> Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? >> >> THAT won't impress Tony. > > Love it or hate it, it is a universal standard. :) And it's damn convenient to interface to, these days! -Dave (I dropped a USB controller symbol onto a schematic for a commercial design not thirty minutes ago!) -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 8 17:00:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:00:35 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2011 04:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I regard them as being difficult to do anything useful with (my esperience >>> is that they make easy jobs trivial and diffiuclt jobs impossible). >>> >> I find that hard to believe. These beasties run Unix, you can script >> almost anything. Even the GUI is scriptable. I prefer OS X or Linux >> over the evil OS from Redmond. >> Or are you talking about pre-OS X? > > Yes, I was thinking about pre-OSX for desktop Apple machines. I am told > that OSX does have an accessible unix shell :-) Yes. Forgive me for jumping in, but I can add a lot from direct experience here. From about 2003 until just recently, *in my opinion*, MacOS X was the best way to get a fast, modern, graphics-enabled UNIX workstation on the desktop. At any one time, I have probably thirty shell windows open. (regardless of what OS I'm running) It is UNIX, through and through. > However, their portable > devices don't seem to have any such shell, they don't seem to have > anything that makes them useful for difficult tasks No, this is incorrect. First, there are very good SSH/telnet clients for iOS devices, which makes accessing shells on other systems trivial, I do it all the time. Second, iPhones and iPads are UNIX machines! They have a shell. You have to do a little work to get to it the first time, but that takes all of five minutes. I have a C compiler running on my iPhone. That was correctly worded: I don't mean "I compile stuff on my desktop machine to run on my iPhone", I mean, I can fire up a shell prompt ON my disconnected-from-the-world iPhone, start emacs (running it ON the iPhone), write ordinary UNIX/posix C code, compile it (again, ON the iPhone), and execute it. When it's connected to a network, I can ssh *into* the iPhone and do the same. I used this functionality recently to build simh. Now, when I "need a fix" away from my desk, I run RSTS/E, RT-11, 2.11BSD, and OS/8 directly on my iPhone from a shell prompt. I am running an install of VAX-VMS v7.3 from a CDROM image to an emulated RA90 as I type this. It's a UNIX machine! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 17:31:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 15:31:45 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2011 at 17:39, Toby Thain wrote: >This was years in advance of the PC world noticing SCSI, of course... Sarcasm aside, this brings up a good question... I've got a 1984 Ampex Megastore board for the PC that uses SCSI (I'll have to check the ROM exactly, to see if they call it SASI or SCSI, but it uses the command set). It connected with an external box with both tape and disk drives. I suspect it wasn't the first for the PC. Does anyone know what was? Apple wasn't even part of the USB working group for a long time. USB was on amny PC motherboards even before connectors for it became available. My earliest USB device is an Anchor Chips EZ-Link S/N 0011--I'd have to open it up to figure out the year. I've got other USB devices that are labeled for use with a specific motherboard. Plug them into a different one, and they're invisible. Early USB was an unmitigated nightmare. After spending a bunch of money on technical books and hardware and then witnessing how awful the implementations were, I lost interest quickly. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 18:03:51 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:03:51 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8F9522.803@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E8F9522.803@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E90D6D7.3090606@gmail.com> Toby Thain wrote: > On 07/10/11 3:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> ... >> I have no liking of Apple products : >> ... >> I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. > > Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? SCSI? Hmm, by what definition did they "first make the leap to SCSI"? Are you comparing just against an IBM-compatible PC, or do you maybe mean "first with on-board SCSI"? Or maybe "first with a machine costing less than $xxxx"? I'm just surprised, because there seemed to be a *lot* of systems that were (or could be made so, if not out of the box) SCSI-capable during the 80s. cheers Jules From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 8 18:06:10 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 16:06:10 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E90D762.9040802@jwsss.com> On 10/8/2011 2:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 08/10/11 4:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. >>> >>> Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? SCSI? >>> >>> This is one of the most egregious and ridiculous lies that people tell >>> about Apple. >> >> I seem to rememebr there were some issues where the original Apple SCSI, >> as on the Mac+ wasn't quite the same as the rest of the world. > > See, that's the difference between people who use Macs (and used them > the time) and the rest. Your superstition isn't true. There is perfect > interoperability with SCSI disks, tapes, scanners, printers, etc. This > was years in advance of the PC world noticing SCSI, of course... > > While we're talking standard interfaces, Apple also introduced > IEEE-1394 to their desktops and laptops in advance of the rest. > There is no such thing as "perfect" interoperability on older SCSI drives. Until drives had matured, the ITLQ nexus didn't work on most, and you could kill drives by just sending out too many tag queue entries. The PC world had several scsi vendors, but SCSI never caught on there because the PC vendors always had a cheaper solution, again thru to the current SATA interfaces. successor FCAL drive interfaces with scsi were the same, never hit price points to work on the PC desktop. There was a well known malfunction that had to do with CD rom blocksize negotiation that both Sun and Apple exploited since very few drives had the firmware fixed to conform with the change in blocksize they set properly early on in the boot process. So you could not use a lot of CD drives on either Apple or Sun systems. whether intended or not, that contributed a sense that Apple didn't care if their system products worked with third party products, since the problem went unchanged until most CD vendors eventually changed their firmware to conform with the command sequence that was a problem. IIRC the standards committee resolved the problem by changing the standard to resolve an ambiguity that was the real issue. It is a matter of perception that a vendor of systems could have changed, both Sun and Apple in their products. The change from 2k blocksizes to 512 was not really necessary at the time they did it in the boot sequence. They both talked to any drive just fine from the OS, it was an issue only on booting. Don't even slightly try to sell that Apple give a crap about interoperability of product lifetime in their marketing and product decisions. Their products are the textbook example of weird and cute quirky hardware. Another example, way off cctalk track. Ipod power / data connection. Can anyone justify why there are different ipod connectors which are incompatable, and why they don't use the mini usb? >> >> I also remmeber that Apple Nubus was not the same as the Nubus standard. >> >> >>>> I don't like the fact that early Mac OSs didn't have any form of >>>> command >>>> line >>> >>> Eh, it didn't matter unless you were accustomed to a command line, and >> >> Yes it does. The original Mac OSs didn't have any real way of automating >> tasks. A computer is good at doing the same thing over and over again >> with slight changes. Not to have that facility makes the machine >> essentialyl useuless to me. > > If you'd used a Mac you know that automation facilities existed in > System 7, 8 and 9, and of course OS X, and there was third party > automation at least in System 6. There were also command lines > available, not least the well respected MPW shell, if you wanted one. > > --Toby > >> >>> the Mac's targer user certainly was not. You are not the classic Mac's >>> target user, clearly. >> >> Clearly not. >> >> -tony >> >> > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 18:13:48 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 19:13:48 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 6:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Oct 2011 at 17:39, Toby Thain wrote: > >> This was years in advance of the PC world noticing SCSI, of > course... > > Sarcasm aside, this brings up a good question... > > I've got a 1984 Ampex Megastore board for the PC that uses SCSI > (I'll have to check the ROM exactly, to see if they call it SASI or > SCSI, but it uses the command set). It connected with an external > box with both tape and disk drives. There's a difference between being able to find some obscure adapter, and making SCSI integral in motherboards, which Apple did with the Mac Plus ~ 1987 and successive products. The Mac Plus _did_ have an Apple-designed interface: The ADB port. However, as usual, this was thoroughly documented on the hardware and software side, and many third party peripherals were built. Ditto Appletalk serial - fully documented and specified, many third party peripherals. > > I suspect it wasn't the first for the PC. Does anyone know what was? > > Apple wasn't even part of the USB working group for a long time. > USB was on amny PC motherboards even before connectors for it became > available. My earliest USB device is an Anchor Chips EZ-Link S/N > 0011--I'd have to open it up to figure out the year. I've got > other USB devices that are labeled for use with a specific > motherboard. Plug them into a different one, and they're invisible. Ditto, Apple rolled it out across the whole product line - New World Macs - obsoleting the floppy and serial ports at around the same time. --T > > Early USB was an unmitigated nightmare. After spending a bunch of > money on technical books and hardware and then witnessing how awful > the implementations were, I lost interest quickly. > > --Chuck > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 8 18:17:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 19:17:46 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90D762.9040802@jwsss.com> References: <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> <4E90D762.9040802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E90DA1A.2050506@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2011 07:06 PM, jim s wrote: > Another example, way off cctalk track. Ipod power / data connection. Can > anyone justify why there are different ipod connectors which are > incompatable, and why they don't use the mini usb? > Because there are lots of things other than USB on that connector. Hell, my iPhone has composite video output (!) on that connector. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 18:22:56 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90C6BD.3030904@neurotica.com> References: <20111008141915.V52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90C3C2.6000703@telegraphics.com.au> <4E90C6BD.3030904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111008162100.O52150@shell.lmi.net> > >>>> I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. > >>> Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? > >> THAT won't impress Tony. > > Love it or hate it, it is a universal standard. :) > And it's damn convenient to interface to, these days! For ME, it makes easy interfacing, trivial! And it makes difficult interfacing, impossible. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Oct 8 18:24:35 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 16:24:35 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> On 10/8/2011 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > From about 2003 until just recently, *in my opinion*, MacOS X was the > best way to get a fast, modern, graphics-enabled UNIX workstation on > the desktop. So what's changed just recently to change your opinion? What's replaced it? (Not trying to flame, genuinely curious.) - Josh From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 18:32:48 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:32:48 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Apple ?wasn't even part of the USB working group for a long time. > USB was on amny PC motherboards even before connectors for it became > available. Any motherboard with an Intel Pentium chipset starting with the Triton II 430HX / 430VX and the 82371SB PIIX3 southbridge had USB 1.0 support in the chipset, although the BIOS could disable and hide the PIIX3 USB controller. Those chipsets date to the beginning of 1996. That's a couple of years before the first iMac with USB support in 1998. But the original iMac without a built in floppy drive did do a lot to boost the interest in USB floppy and USB Zip drives at the time. The first USB device I worked with was the Intel 8x930Ax eval board. Basically an 80251 core with an on chip USB SIE. I don't know if anyone makes an 80251 core USB controller anymore. -Glen From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 18:33:02 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:33:02 -0500 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E90DDAE.9080101@gmail.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > What was the deal with Jobs and fans anyway - none in the Apple ]['s, > the Apple /// (I've now heard of 3 of them going on fire this year > alone) --- The Mac and the iCube... what the heck?!?!? If you have fans, they eventually break, and to do things 'properly' they also have to be monitored and the OS/firmware written to safely handle a failure condition. Maybe he just didn't want the maintenance burden for users, or the extra component and development cost, or figured that not having fans and designing the system to stay cool without would improve reliability stats (obviously it didn't quite work out with the /// :-) I don't have a problem with fans, but the norm seems to be to put them at the intake or outlet, where they can be easily heard - and burying them deeper within a machine with suitable ducting (ISTR something doing this - NeXT slab maybe) would seem a better approach (at least for non-portable systems). I do have a problem with idiot design, though - e.g. my Dell laptop has the fan intake on the bottom of the machine; fine if used on a desk where feet raise it high enough off the surface, but it gets blocked easily if actually used (perish the thought!) on a lap. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 8 18:37:09 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:37:09 -0700 Subject: hard sector diskettes... In-Reply-To: References: , <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com>,<42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com>,<4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com>,<4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au>,<4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au>, <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com>, <0B0D4BF4-F01F-451E-A214-6C50B6573364@zipcon.net>, Message-ID: Hi Of course, you can always by a punch from me and make your own well aligned 10 hole disk from spare 360K disk ( doube density ). I still has a few left from the build. I also have a number of 15 hole punches as well for those that might want one. You don't even need to remove the disk from the envelope. I pass these on at cost. Dwight > Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 12:56:59 -0700 > From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: hard sector diskettes... > > On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Geoff Reed wrote: > > > i am now on the hunt for 10 sector disks for a northstar horizon. a few > > years back I purchased a bunch and they were stolen... I thought that my > > northstar had been stolen, but *happy dance* in the process of moving > > from one storage unit to another, what did I find... my horizon :) no > > media for it remains :( and the manuals are gone, don't remember if the > > thief that broke into my storage P*ssed on them or is they were taken at > > the time also. > > > > no sign of my morrow md3 or dec-rainbow :( did find a microvax 3100 and > > a 'HP' apollo 700 workstation. > > I find hard-sectored floppies from time to time in my storage unit. I'll > make sure I look specifically for them next time I'm in there. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 18:40:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 16:40:17 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2011 at 19:13, Toby Thain wrote: > There's a difference between being able to find some obscure adapter, > and making SCSI integral in motherboards, which Apple did with the Mac > Plus ~ 1987 and successive products. If I understand your claim, then, any PC motherboard featuring an integrated SCSI interface 1987 or earlier nullifies your claim. If so, I'll start looking... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 18:43:29 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com> <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111008162625.B52150@shell.lmi.net> > >> This was years in advance of the PC world noticing SCSI, of > > course... > > Sarcasm aside, this brings up a good question... > > I've got a 1984 Ampex Megastore board for the PC that uses SCSI > > (I'll have to check the ROM exactly, to see if they call it SASI or > > SCSI, but it uses the command set). It connected with an external > > box with both tape and disk drives. On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > There's a difference between being able to find some obscure adapter, > and making SCSI integral in motherboards, which Apple did with the Mac > Plus ~ 1987 and successive products. There's a difference between wider use and "being first" or "before...notice". Overtaking volume of use is NOT "being first". YES, there were SASI implementations before the Macintosh was publically released. Almost certainly SCSI, also. But my memories of the timeline are fading. > The Mac Plus _did_ have an Apple-designed interface: The ADB port. > However, as usual, this was thoroughly documented on the hardware and > software side, and many third party peripherals were built. Ditto > Appletalk serial - fully documented and specified, many third party > peripherals. where are they now? > Ditto, Apple rolled it out across the whole product line - New World > Macs - obsoleting the floppy and serial ports at around the same time. Even I can get a modem or a printer working on a parallel or serial port. Even I can get hardware and software to work on parallel or serial ports. (OK, I don't HAVE any parallel port modems. Wish I did.)_ I can't get a USB modem to work, nor printer drivers to STAY working on some machines. "Troubleshooting" now seems to consist of: 1) check whether it is plugged in. 2) Throw entire new machines at it. Progress. But, YES, USB is nowhere near as USELESS of a SERIAL BOTCH as it used to be. Again. Putting it on all of the product line is NOT "being first to use it". THAT kind of logic makes DELL a major, maybe the greatest, innovator! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 8 18:56:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 19:56:07 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2011 07:24 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> From about 2003 until just recently, *in my opinion*, MacOS X was the >> best way to get a fast, modern, graphics-enabled UNIX workstation on >> the desktop. > > So what's changed just recently to change your opinion? What's replaced > it? (Not trying to flame, genuinely curious.) I don't like the direction in which OS X seems generally headed, while at the same time, Linux has grown up. I will tell you the story. Several months ago, I began construction of a "hackintosh" system to replace my old desktop OS X machine. I carefully selected all the parts to be OS X compatible, and built it up. I ended up with a truly glorious machine...the Intel "Core i" family FINALLY gets the level of performance that more modern architectures had ten years ago! Anyway, I had very poor bandwidth where I was staying at the time, so FTPing my OS X install DVD image from my home network would've taken days, and I wanted to see if my newly-built machine actually functioned. I had an Ubuntu 11.04 install CD in my laptop bag, so I quickly installed it, planning to just run it for a bit to exercise the hardware and then install OS X when the file transfer finished. I was so impressed with the 11.04 distribution as a whole, that it has stayed, and it has been my main desktop system ever since. Now, things are so much easier (like running USB JTAG dongles for Xilinx FPGAs and ARM MCUs, etc) that now I honestly don't know how I got along without it. My laptop, a Macbook Air which I absolutely adore, will stay on OS X for a while, but now, for main desktop system use, in my opinion, Linux (specifically the Ubuntu distribution) is now the best way to get a fast, flexible, modern UNIX desktop workstation. In case you're curious about the specifics, my new machine is a quad 3.2GHz Core i7 with 16GB of RAM, a 10K RPM 150GB SATA system disk, and an array of four 1TB 7200RPM drives managed by ZFS for everything non-OS related. An Nvidia GeForce 8800GTS drives an original-series 23" Apple Cinema Display, and a wired full-size Apple aluminum keyboard and an Apple Trackpad (the big bluetooth desktop version) are my input devices. Linux has good gesture support now, with two-finger scrolling in both horizontal and vertical being something I virtually depend on now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 18:57:28 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> > There's a difference between being able to find some obscure adapter, > and making SCSI integral in motherboards, which Apple did with the Mac > Plus ~ 1987 and successive products. Let me make sure that I understand your point. Shugart ST01 was "obscure"? I don't think that anybody is claiming that Apple was not the LARGEST user of SCSI for a brief period of time. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 19:01:12 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 20:01:12 -0400 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90DDAE.9080101@gmail.com> References: <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300> <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com> <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300> <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com> <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu> <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com> <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu> <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu> <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com> <4E90DDAE.9080101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E90E448.6020900@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 7:33 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> What was the deal with Jobs and fans anyway - none in the Apple ]['s, >> the Apple /// (I've now heard of 3 of them going on fire this year >> alone) --- The Mac and the iCube... what the heck?!?!? > > If you have fans, they eventually break, and to do things 'properly' > they also have to be monitored and the OS/firmware written to safely > handle a failure condition. Exactly. --T > > Maybe he just didn't want the maintenance burden for users, or the extra > component and development cost, or figured that not having fans and > designing the system to stay cool without would improve reliability > stats (obviously it didn't quite work out with the /// :-) > > I don't have a problem with fans, but the norm seems to be to put them > at the intake or outlet, where they can be easily heard - and burying > them deeper within a machine with suitable ducting (ISTR something doing > this - NeXT slab maybe) would seem a better approach (at least for > non-portable systems). > > I do have a problem with idiot design, though - e.g. my Dell laptop has > the fan intake on the bottom of the machine; fine if used on a desk > where feet raise it high enough off the surface, but it gets blocked > easily if actually used (perish the thought!) on a lap. > > cheers > > Jules > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 19:10:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:10:10 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E9083F2.8835.1D6A961@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2011 at 16:32, Glen Slick wrote: > But the original iMac without a built in floppy drive did do a lot to > boost the interest in USB floppy and USB Zip drives at the time. > > The first USB device I worked with was the Intel 8x930Ax eval board. > Basically an 80251 core with an on chip USB SIE. I don't know if > anyone makes an 80251 core USB controller anymore. I still have a pile of HID-type USB devices using 82930A3 chips. They work with the 430HX motherboards and pretty much nothing else. No "B" side connection--the cable is attached directly to the device. Mostly, I've scavenged them for the very nice Toshiba LCD displays (separate PCB, so scavenging's mostly a matter of unscrewing and unplugging). Given how far uCs have come since the 80251 and the advent of USB 2 and 3, I doubt that anyone's still using it. It seems that manufacturers toss in at least a USB 2.0 interface into most of their controllers out of habit. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 19:11:13 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 20:11:13 -0400 Subject: Apple connectors - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90D762.9040802@jwsss.com> References: <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> <4E90D762.9040802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E90E6A1.3060205@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 7:06 PM, jim s wrote: > > > On 10/8/2011 2:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 08/10/11 4:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. >>>> >>>> Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? SCSI? >>>> >>>> This is one of the most egregious and ridiculous lies that people tell >>>> about Apple. >>> >>> I seem to rememebr there were some issues where the original Apple SCSI, >>> as on the Mac+ wasn't quite the same as the rest of the world. >> >> See, that's the difference between people who use Macs (and used them >> the time) and the rest. Your superstition isn't true. There is perfect >> interoperability with SCSI disks, tapes, scanners, printers, etc. This >> was years in advance of the PC world noticing SCSI, of course... >> >> While we're talking standard interfaces, Apple also introduced >> IEEE-1394 to their desktops and laptops in advance of the rest. >> > There is no such thing as "perfect" interoperability on older SCSI > drives. Until drives had matured, the ITLQ nexus didn't work on most, > and you could kill drives by just sending out too many tag queue entries. > ... > Another example, way off cctalk track. Ipod power / data connection. Can > anyone justify why there are different ipod connectors which are > incompatable, and why they don't use the mini usb? Connector design was an area where Apple would definitely change the connector in order to meet Jobs' design goals. Examples include: - ADC for early LCD displays (had to carry power, so DVI wasn't an option) - Power Macs - MiniDVI (Macbook) - MiniDisplayPort (Macbook) - AAUI (vs huge AUI) on Mac II and later - Appletalk serial on classic Mac (vs PC DB-connector) - keyboard RJ on classic Mac (PC was mostly using DIN at the time, I guess) - 25 pin SCSI on Mac Plus (space saving on motherboard) - whatever crazy breakouts the Macbook Air needs In most cases they had to go their own way because smaller variants of connectors (like MiniDVI, MicroUSB, etc) take a very long time to arrive, and Jobs/Apple tended to pressure design constraints in advance of the rest. --T > > >>> >>> I also remmeber that Apple Nubus was not the same as the Nubus standard. >>> >>> >>>>> I don't like the fact that early Mac OSs didn't have any form of >>>>> command >>>>> line >>>> >>>> Eh, it didn't matter unless you were accustomed to a command line, and >>> >>> Yes it does. The original Mac OSs didn't have any real way of automating >>> tasks. A computer is good at doing the same thing over and over again >>> with slight changes. Not to have that facility makes the machine >>> essentialyl useuless to me. >> >> If you'd used a Mac you know that automation facilities existed in >> System 7, 8 and 9, and of course OS X, and there was third party >> automation at least in System 6. There were also command lines >> available, not least the well respected MPW shell, if you wanted one. >> >> --Toby >> >>> >>>> the Mac's targer user certainly was not. You are not the classic Mac's >>>> target user, clearly. >>> >>> Clearly not. >>> >>> -tony >>> >>> >> >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 19:19:40 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 20:19:40 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 7:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> There's a difference between being able to find some obscure adapter, >> and making SCSI integral in motherboards, which Apple did with the Mac >> Plus ~ 1987 and successive products. > > Let me make sure that I understand your point. > Shugart ST01 was "obscure"? > > > I don't think that anybody is claiming that Apple was not the LARGEST user > of SCSI for a brief period of time. > Now we're done beating Apple down, we can talk about what NeXT did that was ahead of its time. :) - booted from Apple, Jobs sold all but one Apple share for a $400m windfall. - Founded NeXT with $7m and A LOT to prove. - Spec'd a ridiculous dream workstation: DSP, MO, 12" cube magnesium chassis, matt black, exotic UNIX, Display PostScript, Objective C, megapixel display with grey scale (and later, deep colour). NeXT is therefore a vanity product & its failure in the market was predictable. Discuss. --T From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 19:22:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:22:51 -0700 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90DDAE.9080101@gmail.com> References: , <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com>, <4E90DDAE.9080101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E9086EB.30839.1E244E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2011 at 18:33, Jules Richardson wrote: > If you have fans, they eventually break, and to do things 'properly' > they also have to be monitored and the OS/firmware written to safely > handle a failure condition. That's mostly because almost nobody makes good fans any more. I have some metal-frame Rotron "Sprite" fans that have passed their 40th year in operation. I also don't hear about too many of the original AC powered fans in old IBM 5150s packing up. Essentially, the problem is that purchasing managers don't want to pay for good fans. Anything than can turn in 18 months of operation without locking up must be good enough. On one of the other electronics-related forums some time ago, I mentioned using an AC-powered fan as a reasonable alternative to cheap plastic Chinese DC fans. One of the forum members took exception to my suggestion and said an AC (shaded pole) fan would kick up enough RF energy to destroy all the ICs in the box. When I pointed out that AC fans have been used on solid-state electronics since the 1950s, he was unmoved and resorted to ad hominem attacks. Where the hell do these ideas get started? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 8 19:27:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 20:27:36 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E90EA78.4000701@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2011 08:19 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Now we're done beating Apple down, we can talk about what NeXT did that > was ahead of its time. :) > > - booted from Apple, Jobs sold all but one Apple share for a $400m > windfall. > - Founded NeXT with $7m and A LOT to prove. > - Spec'd a ridiculous dream workstation: DSP, MO, 12" cube magnesium > chassis, matt black, exotic UNIX, Display PostScript, Objective C, > megapixel display with grey scale (and later, deep colour). > > NeXT is therefore a vanity product & its failure in the market was > predictable. Discuss. The hardware was friggin' FANTASTIC, and the OS was years ahead of its time. (and has stood the test of time, as the roots of OS X) I'm not sure it's fair to label something as a "vanity product" just because it was designed with pie-in-the-sky specs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 19:31:16 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 17:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > Now we're done beating Apple down, we can talk about what NeXT did that > was ahead of its time. :) > - booted from Apple, Jobs sold all but one Apple share for a $400m windfall. > - Founded NeXT with $7m and A LOT to prove. > - Spec'd a ridiculous dream workstation: DSP, MO, 12" cube magnesium > chassis, matt black, exotic UNIX, Display PostScript, Objective C, > megapixel display with grey scale (and later, deep colour). > NeXT is therefore a vanity product & its failure in the market was > predictable. Discuss. Lisa/NeXT were progreesive attempts towards Jobs' dream. (which was WAY different from Woniak's dream!) CLOSED. Avoidance of industry standard removable storage. HI-res B&W (was Jobs, by any chance, color blind?) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 20:17:37 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:17:37 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 8:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> Now we're done beating Apple down, we can talk about what NeXT did that >> was ahead of its time. :) >> - booted from Apple, Jobs sold all but one Apple share for a $400m windfall. >> - Founded NeXT with $7m and A LOT to prove. >> - Spec'd a ridiculous dream workstation: DSP, MO, 12" cube magnesium >> chassis, matt black, exotic UNIX, Display PostScript, Objective C, >> megapixel display with grey scale (and later, deep colour). >> NeXT is therefore a vanity product& its failure in the market was >> predictable. Discuss. > > Lisa/NeXT were progreesive attempts towards Jobs' dream. (which was WAY > different from Woniak's dream!) > CLOSED. Avoidance of industry standard removable storage. > HI-res B&W (was Jobs, by any chance, color blind?) > > This more reflects the hardware cost realities of the time, both in cards and monitors. For a time, post-Jobs Apple sold 12" & 13" grey-scale (1-8 bit) monitors alongside their colour Trinitron range. Their full page Portrait and 21" Two Page Display could do 1 and 2 bit grey scale (latter like the first NeXT). Sun was shipping megapixel 1 bit video around 1989 (entry level SS1). Video cards that could drive 24 bits were still expensive circa 1990 (i paid something like $4000 for a Truevision NuVista which was among the first to fully support Colour QuickDraw up to 32 bits), but both the Mac II and the NeXT range went there as soon as the technology was available. There were 24 bit cards with system software hacks before Colour QuickDraw (RasterOps planar). I think variations of these were even available for the non-NuBus form factor Macs. --Toby From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 8 20:30:41 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:30:41 -0700 Subject: Has anyone heard from Mike Ross? Message-ID: <4E90F941.8010607@bitsavers.org> I tried emailing him yesterday, and didn't hear anything back. Not sure if it is related to corestore.org being down, through. From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 20:36:49 2011 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 18:36:49 -0700 Subject: Has anyone heard from Mike Ross? In-Reply-To: References: <4E90F941.8010607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: He went to Iceland On Oct 8, 2011 6:34 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: I tried emailing him yesterday, and didn't hear anything back. Not sure if it is related to corestore.org being down, through. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 20:36:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 18:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111008183314.M52150@shell.lmi.net> > > Lisa/NeXT were progreesive attempts towards Jobs' dream. (which was WAY > > different from Woniak's dream!) > > CLOSED. Avoidance of industry standard removable storage. > > HI-res B&W (was Jobs, by any chance, color blind?) On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > This more reflects the hardware cost realities of the time, both in > cards and monitors. For a time, post-Jobs Apple sold 12" & 13" The original NeXT would not permit color, no matter how much you wanted to pay. THERE WAS NO WAY TO CONNECT COLOR. Meanwhile, those no good competing machines could be trivially upgraded. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 8 20:49:50 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:49:50 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/11 4:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > In case you're curious about the specifics, my new machine is a quad 3.2GHz Core i7 with 16GB of RAM, > a 10K RPM 150GB SATA system disk, and an array of four 1TB 7200RPM drives managed by ZFS Which Linux ZFS did you go with? I know you were skeptical a few months ago. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Oct 8 20:50:29 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:50:29 -0700 Subject: Free for shipping (from Seattle) Message-ID: <4E90FDE5.4060509@mail.msu.edu> Still cleaning house. Came across the following things I have no need for, if you want them let me know. Free for the cost of shipping. - 2x Intel Pentium II Overdrive chips for Pentium Pro systems. These were working when I pulled them from a system about 5 years ago. If you have a Dual PPro system you're looking to upgrade a bit, here's your ticket. - Tandy Professional Deskmate & MS-DOS/GWBASIC. Binders (in boxes) with manuals and software (5.25" floppy). Looks like they went with a Tandy 3000/4000 originally. I've never owned such a system so I have no idea how I ended up with these. Or why I've kept them for so long. - TRS-80 Model 16 Owner's Manuals (Model 16 and Model II modes). Anything not claimed by 10/15 is getting donated to RE-PC in Tukwila... Thanks, Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Oct 8 20:56:11 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:56:11 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111008183314.M52150@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008183314.M52150@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E90FF3B.3090504@mail.msu.edu> On 10/8/2011 6:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Lisa/NeXT were progreesive attempts towards Jobs' dream. (which was WAY >>> different from Woniak's dream!) >>> CLOSED. Avoidance of industry standard removable storage. >>> HI-res B&W (was Jobs, by any chance, color blind?) > On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> This more reflects the hardware cost realities of the time, both in >> cards and monitors. For a time, post-Jobs Apple sold 12"& 13" > The original NeXT would not permit color, no matter how much you wanted to > pay. > THERE WAS NO WAY TO CONNECT COLOR. > > Meanwhile, those no good competing machines could be trivially upgraded. > Eh, not strictly true. If you waited long enough (until 1990), you could pay $4,000 for a NeXTDimension board for your Cube. It was released to much fanfare and then was basically completely forgotten about by NeXT. But it was pretty cool hardware: up to 64mb of onboard memory, an i860 CPU (33Mhz) running its own Mach kernel for accelerating 32-bit color Display PostScript. 32bpp, video in/out, and talks of an MJPEG accelerator add-on that never materialized. I have one, it's neat -- but I've never found any software (other than demos) that make much use of the extra hardware. - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 8 21:36:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 22:36:12 -0400 Subject: Has anyone heard from Mike Ross? In-Reply-To: References: <4E90F941.8010607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E91089C.7060405@neurotica.com> Is that a euphemism? -Dave On 10/08/2011 09:36 PM, jim stephens wrote: > He went to Iceland > > On Oct 8, 2011 6:34 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > I tried emailing him yesterday, and didn't hear anything back. Not sure if > it is related to corestore.org > being down, through. -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 8 21:37:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 22:37:57 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E910905.8040006@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2011 09:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> In case you're curious about the specifics, my new machine is a quad >> 3.2GHz Core i7 with 16GB of RAM, >> a 10K RPM 150GB SATA system disk, and an array of four 1TB 7200RPM >> drives managed by ZFS > > Which Linux ZFS did you go with? I know you were skeptical a few months > ago. The one from zfsonlinux.org. I am doing frequent backups, and the performance isn't great yet, but it's improving in leaps and bounds, and I've found it stable enough for everyday use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 21:53:19 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 22:53:19 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111008183314.M52150@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008183314.M52150@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E910C9F.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 9:36 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Lisa/NeXT were progreesive attempts towards Jobs' dream. (which was WAY >>> different from Woniak's dream!) >>> CLOSED. Avoidance of industry standard removable storage. >>> HI-res B&W (was Jobs, by any chance, color blind?) > On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> This more reflects the hardware cost realities of the time, both in >> cards and monitors. For a time, post-Jobs Apple sold 12"& 13" > > The original NeXT would not permit color, no matter how much you wanted to > pay. > THERE WAS NO WAY TO CONNECT COLOR. > > Meanwhile, those no good competing machines could be trivially upgraded. > Very expensively upgraded. It was 1988, and even 8 bit cards weren't cheap, and nor were Trinitrons. Hm, look, here's a Sun price list from Dec 1988 (Bitsavers). Upgrades: High res (megapixel-like) mono for Sun-3 $4,000 cg3* 8-bit colour and 19" monitor $12,000 (!!) cg5 "accelerated" 8b colour, 19" monitor $15,000 (!!) cg3 8-bit grey and 19" monitor $10,900 Compare NeXT cube, complete system $6,500 c/w megapixel 2-bit greyscale.? So yes, for the price of 2 1/2 NeXT systems, you could add 8 bit colour to your one Sun. --Toby * Also see: http://www.sunhelp.org/faq/FrameBufferHistory.html ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT_Computer From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 21:54:21 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 22:54:21 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E910CDD.6070008@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 9:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/8/11 4:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> In case you're curious about the specifics, my new machine is a quad >> 3.2GHz Core i7 with 16GB of RAM, >> a 10K RPM 150GB SATA system disk, and an array of four 1TB 7200RPM >> drives managed by ZFS > > Which Linux ZFS did you go with? I know you were skeptical a few months > ago. > > I'd still be sceptical. :) ZFS on Linux has to be a little undercooked. --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 21:56:07 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 22:56:07 -0400 Subject: Has anyone heard from Mike Ross? In-Reply-To: <4E91089C.7060405@neurotica.com> References: <4E90F941.8010607@bitsavers.org> <4E91089C.7060405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E910D47.6010102@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 10:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Is that a euphemism? Ah, you're thinking of the Appalachian Trail! --Toby > > -Dave > > On 10/08/2011 09:36 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> He went to Iceland >> >> On Oct 8, 2011 6:34 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: >> >> I tried emailing him yesterday, and didn't hear anything back. Not >> sure if >> it is related to corestore.org >> being down, through. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 22:12:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 20:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Has anyone heard from Mike Ross? In-Reply-To: <4E910D47.6010102@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E90F941.8010607@bitsavers.org> <4E91089C.7060405@neurotica.com> <4E910D47.6010102@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111008201044.M52150@shell.lmi.net> > >> He went to Iceland > > Is that a euphemism? I read on the Internet that there is really a place named that! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 8 22:21:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:21:01 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E910CDD.6070008@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> <4E910CDD.6070008@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2011, at 10:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 08/10/11 9:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 10/8/11 4:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> In case you're curious about the specifics, my new machine is a quad >>> 3.2GHz Core i7 with 16GB of RAM, >>> a 10K RPM 150GB SATA system disk, and an array of four 1TB 7200RPM >>> drives managed by ZFS >> >> Which Linux ZFS did you go with? I know you were skeptical a few months >> ago. >> >> > > > I'd still be sceptical. :) ZFS on Linux has to be a little undercooked. Not really. No (or almost no) changes have been made to the original ZFS code; it's been interfaced to Linux via a porting layer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 22:32:21 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 20:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E910C9F.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008183314.M52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E910C9F.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111008202048.D52150@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > So yes, for the price of 2 1/2 NeXT systems, you could add 8 bit colour > to your one Sun. Some people wanted color so badly, that they would give up resolution to get it! Personally, I never got the appeal of 256 color accounting. I was much happier with Amdek 1280/Wyse 700 (1280 x 700 B&W). But, every college administrator "had to have" VGA, while the CIS department used CGA, so that we could use cheap B&W composite monitors. (upgraded to Hercules in ~1995). They upgraded from 286 to 386 and then to 486, while we were still stuck with 8088, but wouldn't give them to us, "because we can get $150 trade-in!") When we finally got Pentiums, it was at more than twice the going rate, because somebody cut a special deal. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 8 22:35:00 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 23:35:00 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> <4E910CDD.6070008@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E911664.9070409@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/11 11:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 8, 2011, at 10:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 08/10/11 9:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 10/8/11 4:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> In case you're curious about the specifics, my new machine is a quad >>>> 3.2GHz Core i7 with 16GB of RAM, >>>> a 10K RPM 150GB SATA system disk, and an array of four 1TB 7200RPM >>>> drives managed by ZFS >>> >>> Which Linux ZFS did you go with? I know you were skeptical a few months >>> ago. >>> >>> >> >> >> I'd still be sceptical. :) ZFS on Linux has to be a little undercooked. > > Not really. No (or almost no) changes have been made to the original ZFS code; it's been interfaced to Linux via a porting layer. > Well that's alright then. --T > -Dave > From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Oct 8 22:56:04 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 8 Oct 2011 20:56:04 -0700 Subject: Apple //c power brick failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1318132564.4e911b5492b58@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Nigel Williams > > As no one jumped in regarding my query, I thought I would venture out > along and try the tapping-along-the-seam technique previously > described and see if I could break into the dead Apple //c power > brick. > > The tapping technique worked very nicely, although I had to apply > leverage with a screwdriver hammered into the seam to really crack the > two halves apart. > > The scene of desolation inside revealed why it is dead-dead-dead, see > pictures here: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/AppleCPowerSupplyBrickFailure > > The smell is interesting too, it was nicely bottled up inside the > sealed PSU until I opened it... looks like all 4 diodes are blown in half or burned in half from what i could see. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 23:28:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:28:22 -0700 Subject: Apple //c power brick failure In-Reply-To: <1318132564.4e911b5492b58@secure.zipcon.net> References: , <1318132564.4e911b5492b58@secure.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <4E90C076.18269.2C30CA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2011 at 20:56, Geoff Reed wrote: > looks like all 4 diodes are blown in half or burned in half from what > i could see. Ah, the smoky fragrance of burned transformer varnish! And--my main gripe with these things--the capacitor is probably cooked by all of the heat. Why do they even bother to put electrolytic capacitors in a sealed linear supply 'wart? I know--because it's cheap. Does the transformer have a thermal overload cutout? These things look like tiny capacitors or resistors and are designed to blow (permanently) if the temperature exceeds a certain point. They're required by most electrical codes in portable small appliances, such as hair blow-dryers. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 8 23:46:31 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:46:31 -0700 Subject: Has anyone heard from Mike Ross? In-Reply-To: <20111008201044.M52150@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E90F941.8010607@bitsavers.org> <4E91089C.7060405@neurotica.com> <4E910D47.6010102@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008201044.M52150@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E912727.8050001@jwsss.com> On 10/8/2011 8:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> He went to Iceland >>> Is that a euphemism? > I read on the Internet that there is really a place named that! One of his many hobbies now includes sticking ones nose into live volcanos. There is currently an earthquake swarm and other symptoms on one of Iceland's volcanos. He was talking about taking off a couple of days ago. I just checked FB and see evidence he may still be around, but the volcanos are his top interest. If it goes, watch it here! M?la Live - Austurvollur http://eldgos.mila.is/english/ I'll put a mention about corestore on his pages. Jim Jim From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 00:14:18 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 16:14:18 +1100 Subject: Apple //c power brick failure In-Reply-To: <4E90C076.18269.2C30CA3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1318132564.4e911b5492b58@secure.zipcon.net> <4E90C076.18269.2C30CA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Oct 2011 at 20:56, Geoff Reed wrote: >> looks like all 4 diodes are blown in half or burned in half from what >> i could see. the fault vaporized the solder so the diode remains are wobbling about, a sharp tap and they would be loose inside the case. I wonder if the design relies on the transformer to seal off the mains voltage side? as it is a very snug fit. > Does the transformer have a thermal overload cutout? ?These things > look like tiny capacitors or resistors and are designed to blow > (permanently) if the temperature exceeds a certain point. ?They're > required by most electrical codes in portable small appliances, such > as hair blow-dryers. I uploaded a couple more pictures, one shows the track lifted on the underside of the PCB. Another shows the X2 across the mains but I don't see any other components which might provide the thermal cutout. The transformer itself appears to my untrained eyes to look ok, if it has been severely stressed (damaged) should I expect to see any visible sign? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Oct 9 00:43:12 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 22:43:12 -0700 Subject: Free for shipping (from Seattle) In-Reply-To: <4E90FDE5.4060509@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E90FDE5.4060509@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E913470.6020800@mail.msu.edu> Everything except the Tandy manuals has been claimed. Thanks! Josh On 10/8/2011 6:50 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Still cleaning house. Came across the following things I have no need > for, if you want them let me know. Free for the cost of shipping. > > - 2x Intel Pentium II Overdrive chips for Pentium Pro systems. These > were working when I pulled them from a system about 5 years ago. If > you have a Dual PPro system you're looking to upgrade a bit, here's > your ticket. > > - Tandy Professional Deskmate & MS-DOS/GWBASIC. Binders (in boxes) > with manuals and software (5.25" floppy). Looks like they went with a > Tandy 3000/4000 originally. I've never owned such a system so I have > no idea how I ended up with these. Or why I've kept them for so long. > > - TRS-80 Model 16 Owner's Manuals (Model 16 and Model II modes). > > Anything not claimed by 10/15 is getting donated to RE-PC in Tukwila... > > Thanks, > Josh > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Oct 9 01:38:42 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 23:38:42 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an IBM N40 RS/6000 laptop? Message-ID: <4E914172.1020708@mail.msu.edu> Anyone out there have one of these things? It's an oddball, made for IBM by Tadpole (same guys who made the Sparcbook). I'm trying to identify a scorched component in the battery compartment of mine in the hopes that I can get it running again. It's next to the memory, on the right hand side (with the front of the laptop facing toward you) labeled as "TR35" on the PCB. It's an 8-pin surface-mount component, but the one in mine is scorched so badly it's unidentifiable. And I somehow doubt i'll find a schematic :). Thanks, Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 02:30:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 03:30:55 -0400 Subject: Dave McGuire coming to da 'burgh In-Reply-To: <4E85B039.20808@verizon.net> References: <1317310197.42059.YahooMailNeo@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4E8496FD.3010307@neurotica.com> <4E845291.27024.DBC589@cclist.sydex.com> <4E84D065.9040404@neurotica.com> <4E85B039.20808@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E914DAF.2090408@neurotica.com> On 09/30/2011 08:04 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> I just landed a big consulting job (one of the reasons I'm in the >> process of moving from FL to PA, there's actual WORK here!) > > Oh Christ, Dave McGuire is coming to Pittsburgh? There goes the > neighborhood. :) Muaahhaaahahaaa!! B-) > I saw some links for the pittsburgh maker faire and hackpittsburgh. I > didn't really know about either. And a high altitude balloon project, > pretty cool. Yes, I'll be going to the faire! > Maybe I'll see you 'round sometime. > > Keith > (South Hills of Pgh) We should definitely hang out sometime! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 9 09:38:55 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 07:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Oct 8, 11 07:13:48 pm" Message-ID: <201110091438.p99EctYo021266@floodgap.com> > The Mac Plus _did_ have an Apple-designed interface: The ADB port. Minor nit: the Plus does not have ADB. The first Apple computer with ADB was actually the IIgs. In fact, the Plus was the *last* Mac *not* to use ADB (they still used the RJ-11-style keyboard connector and a DE-9 serial port for the mouse). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters, orthopaedist: "Hey! Careful with your back, Eugene!" --------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 9 09:44:43 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 07:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the G5 that roared was Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9093E2.3040905@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Oct 8, 11 02:18:10 pm" Message-ID: <201110091444.p99Eihrl021372@floodgap.com> > > And yet the fastest G5 and G4 models blew like wind tunnels. I own both > > an MDD G4 and a liquid-cooled quad G5 and they roar at full tilt. The > > G5 can outroar even my notoriously noisy POWER6. > > My G5 and Mac Pro 8 core are very quiet. > > What were you doing that caused them to fully fan-up? When the quad G5 (I don't know what G5 you own, this is the liquid-cooled one) is idle, it is reasonably quiet. In a room with no other computers you will hear it and it is about the same volume as my HEPA filter on low. In my old apartment, at idle, it was not louder than anything else. When I'm building stuff (it is the "buildbot" for TenFourFox) and ramp up the CPU to highest power, then it roars. A nice side benefit is I don't need a space heater in that room when I'm waiting for rebuilds ;) I can understand why Apple didn't want the G5 in a laptop, and even I have reservations about its design relative to the G4, but it was a pretty hot (heheh) Mac for the time and it still performs pretty well, six years later. I don't have any plans to retire it or buy an Intel Mac. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Premature optimization is the root of all evil. -- Donald Knuth ------------ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 10:00:17 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 11:00:17 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110091438.p99EctYo021266@floodgap.com> References: <201110091438.p99EctYo021266@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E91B701.7060105@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 10:38 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The Mac Plus _did_ have an Apple-designed interface: The ADB port. > > Minor nit: the Plus does not have ADB. The first Apple computer with ADB > was actually the IIgs. In fact, the Plus was the *last* Mac *not* to use > ADB (they still used the RJ-11-style keyboard connector and a DE-9 serial > port for the mouse). > My mistake. The SE and Mac II certainly had ADB. In my defence, it was a long time ago :) (A Plus was the first computer I bought for myself.) --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 10:02:32 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 11:02:32 -0400 Subject: the G5 that roared was Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110091444.p99Eihrl021372@floodgap.com> References: <201110091444.p99Eihrl021372@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E91B788.2040307@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 10:44 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> And yet the fastest G5 and G4 models blew like wind tunnels. I own both >>> an MDD G4 and a liquid-cooled quad G5 and they roar at full tilt. The >>> G5 can outroar even my notoriously noisy POWER6. >> >> My G5 and Mac Pro 8 core are very quiet. >> >> What were you doing that caused them to fully fan-up? > > When the quad G5 (I don't know what G5 you own, this is the liquid-cooled > one) is idle, it is reasonably quiet. In a room with no other computers you > will hear it and it is about the same volume as my HEPA filter on low. In > my old apartment, at idle, it was not louder than anything else. I have a fan-cooled dual. It's also quiet when idle. > > When I'm building stuff (it is the "buildbot" for TenFourFox) and ramp up > the CPU to highest power, then it roars. A nice side benefit is I don't need > a space heater in that room when I'm waiting for rebuilds ;) > > I can understand why Apple didn't want the G5 in a laptop, and even I have > reservations about its design relative to the G4, but it was a pretty hot > (heheh) Mac for the time and it still performs pretty well, six years later. > I don't have any plans to retire it or buy an Intel Mac. > Same here. At home I don't plan to upgrade my G4 Powerbook or G5. For work, I weakened and bought an 8 core Mac Pro, cheap. (Which is 7 cores more than I really need... I will always be the slowest part of the system...) --Toby From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Oct 9 10:12:48 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 08:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: original WOZ monitor running on S-100 6502 CPU board homebrew system Message-ID: <1318173168.6776.YahooMailClassic@web180212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, Neil just posted an update on his project to get the original WOZ monitor running on the S-100 6502 CPU board. Very nice! http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/browse_thread/thread/9f02290a7c4c6328# Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 9 11:49:48 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 10:49:48 -0600 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/8/2011 7:17 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > Video cards that could drive 24 bits were still expensive circa 1990 (i > paid something like $4000 for a Truevision NuVista which was among the > first to fully support Colour QuickDraw up to 32 bits), but both the Mac > II and the NeXT range went there as soon as the technology was > available. There were 24 bit cards with system software hacks before > Colour QuickDraw (RasterOps planar). I think variations of these were > even available for the non-NuBus form factor Macs. > Did that card have video frame grabbing? > --Toby > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 9 11:53:28 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90EA78.4000701@neurotica.com> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> <4E90EA78.4000701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/08/2011 08:19 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Now we're done beating Apple down, we can talk about what NeXT did that >> was ahead of its time. :) >> >> - booted from Apple, Jobs sold all but one Apple share for a $400m >> windfall. >> - Founded NeXT with $7m and A LOT to prove. >> - Spec'd a ridiculous dream workstation: DSP, MO, 12" cube magnesium >> chassis, matt black, exotic UNIX, Display PostScript, Objective C, >> megapixel display with grey scale (and later, deep colour). >> >> NeXT is therefore a vanity product & its failure in the market was >> predictable. Discuss. > > The hardware was friggin' FANTASTIC, and the OS was years ahead of its > time. (and has stood the test of time, as the roots of OS X) I'm not sure > it's fair to label something as a "vanity product" just because it was > designed with pie-in-the-sky specs. > Careful Dave. If you disturb his reality distortion field with facts, he's likely to flip out. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 9 11:55:13 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 09:55:13 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E910CDD.6070008@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> <4E910CDD.6070008@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E91D1F1.7060100@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/11 7:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > ZFS on Linux has to be a little undercooked. > Better than the mythical ZFX on OS X from Ten's Compliment From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Oct 9 12:10:50 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 10:10:50 -0700 Subject: the G5 that roared was Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110091444.p99Eihrl021372@floodgap.com> References: <4E9093E2.3040905@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Oct 8, 11 02:18:10 pm",<201110091444.p99Eihrl021372@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I used a dual G5 machine for an instructional course once upon a time. The OS was Yellow Dog Linux, and it had fallen behind the hardware in that Apple had changed hardware in the thermal control and YDL didn't recognize its reported version number. The thing was as loud as an old Hoover. I found and fixed the offending code and it purred quietly in the corner. And even with a dozen students running instances of a compute-intensive simulation, it remained cool and quiet. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser [spectre at floodgap.com] Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 7:44 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: the G5 that roared was Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > > And yet the fastest G5 and G4 models blew like wind tunnels. I own both > > an MDD G4 and a liquid-cooled quad G5 and they roar at full tilt. The > > G5 can outroar even my notoriously noisy POWER6. > > My G5 and Mac Pro 8 core are very quiet. > > What were you doing that caused them to fully fan-up? When the quad G5 (I don't know what G5 you own, this is the liquid-cooled one) is idle, it is reasonably quiet. In a room with no other computers you will hear it and it is about the same volume as my HEPA filter on low. In my old apartment, at idle, it was not louder than anything else. When I'm building stuff (it is the "buildbot" for TenFourFox) and ramp up the CPU to highest power, then it roars. A nice side benefit is I don't need a space heater in that room when I'm waiting for rebuilds ;) I can understand why Apple didn't want the G5 in a laptop, and even I have reservations about its design relative to the G4, but it was a pretty hot (heheh) Mac for the time and it still performs pretty well, six years later. I don't have any plans to retire it or buy an Intel Mac. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Premature optimization is the root of all evil. -- Donald Knuth ------------ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 12:13:16 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 13:13:16 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4E906CE1.7047.17C8CE6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> <4E907CF1.13901.1BB4D69@cclist.sydex.com> <20111008165522.Y52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90E89C.1060500@telegraphics.com.au> <20111008172712.J52150@shell.lmi.net> <4E90F631.4010800@telegraphics.com.au> <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 12:49 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/8/2011 7:17 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> >> Video cards that could drive 24 bits were still expensive circa 1990 (i >> paid something like $4000 for a Truevision NuVista which was among the >> first to fully support Colour QuickDraw up to 32 bits), but both the Mac >> II and the NeXT range went there as soon as the technology was >> available. There were 24 bit cards with system software hacks before >> Colour QuickDraw (RasterOps planar). I think variations of these were >> even available for the non-NuBus form factor Macs. >> > Did that card have video frame grabbing? Truevision NuVista+ had a bunch of video features including frame grabbing, and video overlay with 1 bit alpha mask. I still have the card. It also had a TI (iirc) DSP on board, which was programmable with Mac-hosted development tools. I have been unable to locate the development kit for this over the years. --Toby > >> --Toby >> > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 12:13:38 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 13:13:38 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91D1F1.7060100@bitsavers.org> References: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> <4E90DBB3.2020104@mail.msu.edu> <4E90E317.2040702@neurotica.com> <4E90FDBE.2040303@bitsavers.org> <4E910CDD.6070008@telegraphics.com.au> <4E91D1F1.7060100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E91D642.4030203@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 12:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/8/11 7:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> ZFS on Linux has to be a little undercooked. >> > > Better than the mythical ZFX on OS X from Ten's Compliment > > I thought that recently reached some kind of milestone? --Toby From alanp at snowmoose.com Sun Oct 9 13:02:32 2011 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 11:02:32 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs 1955-2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E91E1B8.10402@snowmoose.com> On 10/9/11 10:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >>> > > >>> > > I have no liking of Apple products : >>> > > >>> > > I regard them as being difficult to do anything useful with (my esperience >>> > > is that they make easy jobs trivial and diffiuclt jobs impossible). >>> > > >> > I find that hard to believe. These beasties run Unix, you can script >> > almost anything. Even the GUI is scriptable. I prefer OS X or Linux >> > over the evil OS from Redmond. >> > Or are you talking about pre-OS X? > Yes, I was thinking about pre-OSX for desktop Apple machines. I am told > that OSX does have an accessible unix shell:-). However, their portable > devices don't seem to have any such shell, they don't seem to have > anything that makes them useful for difficult tasks. Why do some people feel the need to be so self-righteous about products that they don't use? You don't like Apple products because of attributes of a product that hasn't shipped in almost a decade? How close-minded is that? FWIW, I use that accessible unix shell under MacOS X to do my job as a Solaris kernel developer. Most of the machines that I use for work (and their consoles and service processors) are network accessible and I have no problem debugging kernel bugs and developing new Solaris features from my MacBook. I don't buy your claim that Apple's portable devices (I presume that you mean iOS devices like iPod touch, iPhone and iPad because my Mac laptops are portable) "don't have anything that makes them useful for difficult tasks" because they don't have a shell. They are devices where the primary input method is touch gestures. "Boy, my TV (or set-top box) is useless because it doesn't have a shell." "Why didn't put a shell interface on this microwave? Worthless!" I am an iOS app developer in my spare time. There are plenty of apps that do difficult things. And iOS devices even have consoles and crash dumps if you are into that. alan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 13:34:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 11:34:30 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> As far as the price of high-resolution color goes, we're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. PCs and associated gear are cheap now, but hail back to the 1980s. A really functional 5150 (memory, graphics, disk drives included) would probably run close to $3K. For that you got a 64K 4.77MHz system. But in fact, as early as 1986, megapixel color cards were offered for the PC platform--and before 1990, relatively advanced TIGA cards were offered by several vendors. The PC was beginning to compete with the high-end workstations and good graphics were a must. So arguing that color was expensive, is a nonissue. Everything was expensive, save for the "home" computers such as the Commodore Amiga. What I do credit the Next cube for was the use of Display Postscript, although it wasn't the first to do that (Sun, IIRC, was).. The MO drive was just plain silly (slooow write, specialized media). --Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 9 13:42:15 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 13:42:15 -0500 Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E91EB07.7010004@brutman.com> On 10/6/2011 2:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple components >>> (transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more >>> components (the PC PSU)??? >> >> Although it may offend you in principle, "obsolete" PCs show up in the >> gutter around here, but TRS80 parts cost money. > > You mean there really are classic computer people who don't have boxes of > assorted fuses, diodes, etc? Amazing... > > -tony > > Please, enough of the self-righteousness that always seems to highlight your purist tendencies, including the ability to construct transistors from raw materials and simple hand tools. We know where you stand already. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Oct 9 13:51:22 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 11:51:22 -0700 Subject: Apple //c power brick failure In-Reply-To: References: <1318132564.4e911b5492b58@secure.zipcon.net> <4E90C076.18269.2C30CA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5010151c5f29f0ba442987e8452f5de0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Oct 8, at 10:14 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 8 Oct 2011 at 20:56, Geoff Reed wrote: >>> looks like all 4 diodes are blown in half or burned in half from what >>> i could see. > > the fault vaporized the solder so the diode remains are wobbling > about, a sharp tap and they would be loose inside the case. I wonder > if the design relies on the transformer to seal off the mains voltage > side? as it is a very snug fit. > >> Does the transformer have a thermal overload cutout? ?These things >> look like tiny capacitors or resistors and are designed to blow >> (permanently) if the temperature exceeds a certain point. ?They're >> required by most electrical codes in portable small appliances, such >> as hair blow-dryers. > > I uploaded a couple more pictures, one shows the track lifted on the > underside of the PCB. Another shows the X2 across the mains but I > don't see any other components which might provide the thermal cutout. > > The transformer itself appears to my untrained eyes to look ok, if it > has been severely stressed (damaged) should I expect to see any > visible sign? A thermal cutout may be buried under that yellow wrap (it may be that bulge where the wire goes under the wrap) where it is held close to the winding for heat sensing. You could test for continuity of the primary with an ohmmeter. I would expect the transformer is likely OK, you could remove the diodes, clean out burned traces to make sure there are no shorts, then plug it in and check for sensible AC voltages out of the secondary(ies), and that the transformer doesn't heat up inordinately with no load. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 13:59:55 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 14:59:55 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 2:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > As far as the price of high-resolution color goes, we're looking > through the wrong end of the telescope. PCs and associated gear are > cheap now, but hail back to the 1980s. A really functional 5150 > (memory, graphics, disk drives included) would probably run close to > $3K. For that you got a 64K 4.77MHz system. > > But in fact, as early as 1986, megapixel color cards were offered for > the PC platform--and before 1990, relatively advanced TIGA cards were > offered by several vendors. The PC was beginning to compete with the > high-end workstations and good graphics were a must. > > So arguing that color was expensive, is a nonissue. Everything was > expensive, save for the "home" computers such as the Commodore Amiga. Colour was notably expensive both on the card side and the monitor side, unless you wanted a really crappy monitor or really crappy resolution/depth. And I was talking about workstations, because that is where the NeXT competed. PC/home computer graphics was another, much more primitive, ballgame entirely, in the 1980s. > > What I do credit the Next cube for was the use of Display Postscript, > although it wasn't the first to do that (Sun, IIRC, was).. Sun didn't use Display PostScript for OpenWindows - but their Network extensible Windowing System did use PostScript primitives and a version of the language, which is what you are presumably thinking of. It is part of OpenWindows 3, and seems unlikely to have predated NEXTSTEP, at least in general release. Interesting detail - Jim Gosling was, I believe, responsible for the F3 outline font rasteriser in OpenWindows. Then he went on to do something else that was better known... But here we are, in 2011, stuck with X11 on many systems. Better imaging is one thing Steve Jobs got right, in NEXTSTEP and OS X. --T > The MO > drive was just plain silly (slooow write, specialized media). > > --Chuck > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 14:03:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 12:03:59 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au>, <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E918DAF.8737.A15BFB@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2011 at 11:34, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What I do credit the Next cube for was the use of Display Postscript, > although it wasn't the first to do that (Sun, IIRC, was).. The MO > drive was just plain silly (slooow write, specialized media). Eh, a slip--I meant "optical"--an MO drive would have been a logical improvement. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 14:20:16 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 15:20:16 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > But in fact, as early as 1986, megapixel color cards were offered for > the PC platform--and before 1990, relatively advanced TIGA cards were > offered by several vendors. ?The PC was beginning to compete with the > high-end workstations and good graphics were a must. I had one of those TIGA cards - an NEC. I bought it at a hamfest for $5 because the guy did not know what he had. For a while, it kicked ass, even if my machine did not. > What I do credit the Next cube for was the use of Display Postscript, > although it wasn't the first to do that (Sun, IIRC, was).. ? The MO > drive was just plain silly (slooow write, specialized media). Hmm, that sounds like a suit made a dumb engineering decision. Oh, sorry, that was Jobs...he has nerd immunity. I think the MO was the single biggest thing that killed what would have been a great line of machines. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 14:30:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 12:30:23 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9193DF.20416.B98856@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2011 at 14:59, Toby Thain wrote: >> Colour was notably expensive both on the card side and the monitor > side, unless you wanted a really crappy monitor or really crappy > resolution/depth. And I was talking about workstations, because that > is where the NeXT competed. PC/home computer graphics was another, > much more primitive, ballgame entirely, in the 1980s. I'll argue that the TIGA (TI 340-based) graphics cards were far from primitive--and the technology dates from 1986. > Sun didn't use Display PostScript for OpenWindows - but their Network > extensible Windowing System did use PostScript primitives and a version > of the language, which is what you are presumably thinking of. Yes, Sun Draw/NeWS--first presented in 1985.May I assume that NeXT boxes were already out on the street by then? --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Oct 9 15:08:22 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 13:08:22 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> On 10/9/2011 12:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> What I do credit the Next cube for was the use of Display Postscript, >> although it wasn't the first to do that (Sun, IIRC, was).. The MO >> drive was just plain silly (slooow write, specialized media). > Hmm, that sounds like a suit made a dumb engineering decision. Oh, > sorry, that was Jobs...he has nerd immunity. > > I think the MO was the single biggest thing that killed what would > have been a great line of machines. This may be apocryphal (I can't find a reliable source on this now that I'm trying to look it up), but one thing I recall is that Jobs' original vision for the optical drive was that the Cube would have *no* internal storage (save maybe a small hard disk for paging) and each user would have their own optical disk that the system would boot from, containing the full OS, and the user's applications and files. It's an interesting idea, in that a user could carry his whole world around with him. If I'm recalling correctly, the original Cubes did ship in configurations meeting that vision, but the drives were so slow and unreliable it didn't take long for that idea to be dropped. I have a Cube with an optical drive, never did bother trying to find optical media for it... I wonder if it still works. - Josh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 12:32:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 18:32:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90C2F9.2070502@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Oct 8, 11 05:39:05 pm Message-ID: [Apple SCSI[ > See, that's the difference between people who use Macs (and used them > the time) and the rest. Your superstition isn't true. There is perfect I am _sure_ I rememebr there being different firmware EPROMs for some hard disks -- Mac firmware and 'stnadard' firmware. I am thining of the 1985-86 timeframe. > interoperability with SCSI disks, tapes, scanners, printers, etc. This > was years in advance of the PC world noticing SCSI, of course... All the world is not a PC :-). I am sure there were other machiens with SCSI at the time. > > Yes it does. The original Mac OSs didn't have any real way of automating > > tasks. A computer is good at doing the same thing over and over again > > with slight changes. Not to have that facility makes the machine > > essentialyl useuless to me. > > If you'd used a Mac you know that automation facilities existed in > System 7, 8 and 9, and of course OS X, and there was third party Actually, i did realsie that. > automation at least in System 6. There were also command lines > available, not least the well respected MPW shell, if you wanted one. But AFAIK they weren't included as standard. I though the whole point of a Mac was that it worked straight out of the box... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 12:35:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 18:35:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90C3C2.6000703@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Oct 8, 11 05:42:26 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/10/11 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> I don't like that fact that they rarely, if ever, follow standards. > >> > >> Eh? The company that first made the leap to USB? > > > > THAT won't impress Tony. > > > > > > > > Love it or hate it, it is a universal standard. :) THis is some new defintion of 'universal' :-) I have over 200 computers here : Almost all of them have RS232 ports Many of them have Centronics-like parallel ports Quite a few have 'user' TTL-level parallel ports And a fair proprtion have HPIB/GPIB/IEEE488 ports Not _one_ has USB, or can have USB. It's not universal here... And I am not convinced a 'universal interface' makes any more sense than a 'universal vehicle' that will carry 10 tonnes of cargo, will withstand a hit from a shell and will win a Formula 1 race :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 14:17:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:17:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90C803.1000607@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 8, 11 06:00:35 pm Message-ID: > Second, iPhones and iPads are UNIX machines! They have a shell. You > have to do a little work to get to it the first time, but that takes all > of five minutes. Thanks for the information. My friends with such machines have told me that they run unix under the graphical front end, but that it's locked down and you can't get to it. I was obviously misinformed. > I have a C compiler running on my iPhone. That was correctly worded: > I don't mean "I compile stuff on my desktop machine to run on my > iPhone", I mean, I can fire up a shell prompt ON my > disconnected-from-the-world iPhone, start emacs (running it ON the > iPhone), write ordinary UNIX/posix C code, compile it (again, ON the > iPhone), and execute it. When it's connected to a network, I can ssh > *into* the iPhone and do the same. RIght... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 14:21:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:21:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90D6D7.3090606@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 8, 11 06:03:51 pm Message-ID: > Hmm, by what definition did they "first make the leap to SCSI"? Are you > comparing just against an IBM-compatible PC, or do you maybe mean "first > with on-board SCSI"? Or maybe "first with a machine costing less than $xxxx"? > > I'm just surprised, because there seemed to be a *lot* of systems that were > (or could be made so, if not out of the box) SCSI-capable during the 80s. I would be very suprised if the Mac+ was the first computer to have a SCSI interface. The Mac+ uses a stnadard single-chip SCSI cotnroller (5380 IIRC), which was not designed to go into the Mac, or even to go into a 68000 machine. It's a standard chip, off the shelf. My experience of designs of that period suggests that often the first machines to use a particular interface implemented it using TTL, small progamamble devices (PALs), est. The single-chip implementation came later, when the IC manufacutrer realised thaere was going to be a market for such an interface chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 14:30:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:30:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90D92C.1060305@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Oct 8, 11 07:13:48 pm Message-ID: > There's a difference between being able to find some obscure adapter, > and making SCSI integral in motherboards, which Apple did with the Mac > Plus ~ 1987 and successive products. I am not sven sure that Apple were the first to put SCSI on the mainboard. What about Sun? In any case, a 'motherboard' or mainboard is meaningless for some types of computer. > The Mac Plus _did_ have an Apple-designed interface: The ADB port. Did it? I thought that the Mac+ had the old-style keyboard interface usign a telphone-type modular connector, and a DE9 socekt for a quadrature-output mouse. In fact I am darn sure mine does. > However, as usual, this was thoroughly documented on the hardware and > software side, and many third party peripherals were built. Ditto Where can I get the _full_ ADB spcification? Yes, there were 3rd part peripherals, and even chips (Microchip sold a ADB mouse controller which was obviously a programmed PIC), but I didn't think you could get the complete specification to design your own stuff without being a registered developer, signing NDAs, etc. Maybe that's changed, but I never managed to get it. I don;t think it was in Inside Macintosh, for example. > Appletalk serial - fully documented and specified, many third party > peripherals. I have no problem with a manufacuter coming up with a new, custom interface. I have a lot of problems wehn they give it a stnadard name. Like calling the Mac II expanison slots Nubus. They are _almsot_ Nubus, but there are differences. > Ditto, Apple rolled it out across the whole product line - New World > Macs - obsoleting the floppy and serial ports at around the same time. AS an aside, I've yet to see a USB floppy drive that can do everythign a real flopy drive linked to just about any normal floppy controller chip on the processor bus can do. And there seem to be plenty of issues with USB-RS232 interfaces. Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 14:32:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:32:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111008162100.O52150@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 8, 11 04:22:56 pm Message-ID: [USB] > For ME, it makes easy interfacing, trivial! > And it makes difficult interfacing, impossible. Certainly looks that way. If you have a USB device, the drives for it for the OS you're running, etc then it all (normally) works. But that applies to just about any interface. And if you want to use an USB product on an different machine or OS for which there aren't drivers, it seems to be a lot more difficult than, say, using an RS232 or HPIB device on a differnet machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 14:39:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:39:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111008162625.B52150@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 8, 11 04:43:29 pm Message-ID: > Even I can get a modem or a printer working on a parallel or serial port. > Even I can get hardware and software to work on parallel or serial ports. > (OK, I don't HAVE any parallel port modems. Wish I did.)_ Rememebr that the original PC parallel port was officially output-only, whcih imples it's not a MODEM, but a MO :-) More seriosuly, didn't Commodore once make a GPIB-inteface Modem for the PET? That's somethign I'd like to see. (As an aside, HP made an HPIL accoustic coupler (HP82167 IIRC, it's one of the few HPIL devices I don't own).) Btu a modem (at least at that time) is inherrently a bit-seiral device, so it's not suprisng that most of them had RS232 host interfaces. > I can't get a USB modem to work, nor printer drivers to STAY working on > some machines. "Troubleshooting" now seems to consist of: 1) check > whether it is plugged in. 2) Throw entire new machines at it. > Progress. Even if yoy know what it should be doing (and the documentation for a lot of modern devices, USB or otherwise, is useless), the equipment you need to debug a USB interface is a lot mroe complex than the stuff you need to debug an RS232 interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 14:48:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:48:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple connectors - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E90E6A1.3060205@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Oct 8, 11 08:11:13 pm Message-ID: > - AAUI (vs huge AUI) on Mac II and later That's not just a connector change. IIRC, the AUI (standard) inteface provides a 12V power suuply for the transceiver. AAUI provides 5V. Meaning that using stnadard transceivers on a Mac is non-trivial. > - Appletalk serial on classic Mac (vs PC DB-connector) Mac serial ports don't have to use the Appletalk protocol (thankfully -- I've got nothing agianst Appletalk, but it's handy to be able to talk to the rest of the world too...). But anyway, IIRC the original Mac (and Mac 512?) used DE9 connectors for the serial ports, wired differnetly to PC ones. But making up adapters from any of MAc DE9, PC DE9 or Mac MiniDIN 8 to the _standard_ DB25 is not a big job. But I do think that MiniDINs in general are horrible connectors. They're dififuclt to wire and not that reliable. > - keyboard RJ on classic Mac (PC was mostly using DIN at the time, I > guess) Strictly it's not an RJ-anything. The RJ standards define the (telephone) signals as well as the connector. These modular telephone connectors may not have been used on PCs, but plenty of other manufacturers were using them for keyboards at that time. HP (HP150, HP120, probagly at least one terminal), DEC (anything that uses an LK201), Vicotr/Sirius, etc. > - 25 pin SCSI on Mac Plus (space saving on motherboard) .. And misisng out most of the ground wires, which are not there to look nice ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 14:52:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:52:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9086EB.30839.1E244E0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 8, 11 05:22:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 8 Oct 2011 at 18:33, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > If you have fans, they eventually break, and to do things 'properly' > > they also have to be monitored and the OS/firmware written to safely > > handle a failure condition. > > That's mostly because almost nobody makes good fans any more. I have > some metal-frame Rotron "Sprite" fans that have passed their 40th All my HP9800s and most of my minicomputers (all early 1970s machines) are still running on their original fans. I do stip them and lubricate them when I first clean up the machine but that's all. > year in operation. I also don't hear about too many of the original > AC powered fans in old IBM 5150s packing up. I did have the rpelace the DC fan in a 5170 PSU, though :-( > > Essentially, the problem is that purchasing managers don't want to > pay for good fans. Anything than can turn in 18 months of operation > without locking up must be good enough. > > On one of the other electronics-related forums some time ago, I > mentioned using an AC-powered fan as a reasonable alternative to > cheap plastic Chinese DC fans. One of the forum members took > exception to my suggestion and said an AC (shaded pole) fan would > kick up enough RF energy to destroy all the ICs in the box. When I Can you please explain hoiw a shaded pole motor generates RF energy? If anything, a DC fan, with electornic commutation is more likely to genrate RF, and is more likely to put nosie on the apporpriate supply line than an AC fan. > pointed out that AC fans have been used on solid-state electronics > since the 1950s, he was unmoved and resorted to ad hominem attacks. > Where the hell do these ideas get started? Probably from people who've never done 'real' electroncs. You know, the sort that belive that the only thing you need to design and test electronic circuits is a CAD workstation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 15:01:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:01:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple //c power brick failure In-Reply-To: <1318132564.4e911b5492b58@secure.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Oct 8, 11 08:56:04 pm Message-ID: > > Quoting Nigel Williams > > > > As no one jumped in regarding my query, I thought I would venture out > > along and try the tapping-along-the-seam technique previously > > described and see if I could break into the dead Apple //c power > > brick. > > > > The tapping technique worked very nicely, although I had to apply > > leverage with a screwdriver hammered into the seam to really crack the > > two halves apart. > > > > The scene of desolation inside revealed why it is dead-dead-dead, see > > pictures here: > > > > https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/AppleCPowerSupplyBrickFailure > > > > The smell is interesting too, it was nicely bottled up inside the > > sealed PSU until I opened it... > > > looks like all 4 diodes are blown in half or burned in half from what > i could see. > Now that I've maanged to view the pictures, my comments... It's clearly a linear suppl. The 4 diodes and capacitor provide a DC output (unregualted). Is that the only output, or are there AC outputs too? What I do do first is desodler the transformer secondary connections from the PCB and put the PCB aside. Check the continuity of the primary winding (between the live and neutral pins of the mains input plug) and the secondary (or -ies). If any are open, the transformer needs a rewind. Actually, if the primary is open, there may be a thermal fuse inside the trnasofmer that has failed, protectign the rest of it. You might be able to find and replace that without rewiding the whole thing. If you have a 'megger', do an insualtion test on the transfomer -- between each widing and the core and betwee the primaray and each secodnary winding. Then, with The PCB still removed, connect mains with a ligbt bulb (low-ish wattage) in series. It must be a real filament bulb, of course. The blub should remain dark. If it glows, you'ge got shorted turns, probably due to burnt insulation. again rewind time... If the transofmer is OK, then it's probably worth replacing the 4 diodes and the capacitor (the latter may be OK, but I woudn't trust it! That should get it going again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 15:26:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:26:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: <4E91EB07.7010004@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Oct 9, 11 01:42:15 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/6/2011 2:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Why would anybody replace a device containing 4 simple components > >>> (transformer, fuse, and 2 diodes) with something containg many more > >>> components (the PC PSU)??? > >> > >> Although it may offend you in principle, "obsolete" PCs show up in the > >> gutter around here, but TRS80 parts cost money. > > > > You mean there really are classic computer people who don't have boxes of > > assorted fuses, diodes, etc? Amazing... > > > > -tony > > > > > > Please, enough of the self-righteousness that always seems to highlight > your purist tendencies, including the ability to construct transistors > from raw materials and simple hand tools. We know where you stand already. Sorry, my last comment was intended to be sarcastic, it didn't come across that way I guess. However, if we go back to the original problem of reparing or replacing a TRS-80 Model 1 power brick : The TRS-80 has linear voltag regulators on the CPU board (I have the schematics here), the inputs on the DIN connector are therefore higher voltages than the required +5V, -5V and +12V. You cna't, therefore, conenct some of the wires from a normal PC power supply (be it a PC, PC/AT, or ATX supply) to a 5 pin DIN plug and use it to power an unmodified TRS-80 Model 1. You have at least 2 options if you want to use one. Either modify the PC power supply to give out highet voltages, and feed those into an unmodified Model 1 (but the PC power supply is likely to be undocumented...) or modify the model 1 by bypassing the regulators so that it taks in +/-5V and +12V (but then having a machine that will be ruined if you conenc tthe original PSU to it, and hoping that the rails come up in the right order to avoid damage to the DRAMs). Both strike me as quite abit of work, and require some electronics knowledge. The oriignal power brick cotnisn 4 components, one of which (the transformer) is not likely to have failed. They can all be tested using simple equipment (multimeter and a series light bulb). It stikes me that repairing the origianl brick is less work, and requires less electronic knowledge than using a PC power supply in this case. You comment would be somewhat more jsutified is I was commenting on repairing a complex regulated-output PSU .vs. replacing it with a PC supply. In that case ofteh the PS supply gives the right votlages, it's just a connector change. I don't like doing it becase, yes, I am a purist and I regurd the PSU as being part of the original design of the machine. But I can accept in thsi case that wiring a handful of wires to a connector is easier than doing battler with an SMPSU that decides to blow components off the board. -tony From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 15:42:16 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 16:42:16 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9193DF.20416.B98856@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9193DF.20416.B98856@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E920728.2040106@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 3:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Oct 2011 at 14:59, Toby Thain wrote: > >>> Colour was notably expensive both on the card side and the monitor >> side, unless you wanted a really crappy monitor or really crappy >> resolution/depth. And I was talking about workstations, because that >> is where the NeXT competed. PC/home computer graphics was another, >> much more primitive, ballgame entirely, in the 1980s. > > I'll argue that the TIGA (TI 340-based) graphics cards were far from > primitive--and the technology dates from 1986. > >> Sun didn't use Display PostScript for OpenWindows - but their Network >> extensible Windowing System did use PostScript primitives and a version >> of the language, which is what you are presumably thinking of. > > Yes, Sun Draw/NeWS--first presented in 1985.May I assume that NeXT > boxes were already out on the street by then? Hmm, SunDew paper by James Gosling is dated 1986, here: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NetworkExtensibleWindowSystem From the emails cited here: http://www.art.net/Studios/Hackers/Hopkins/Don/lang/NeWS.html ...it couldn't have been part of a product until after 1987. It did indeed ship with OpenWindows 3.0 (1991) and The NeWS Toolkit (1989). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS so by the time it was generally released, NeXT cube must have been shipping for at least a year. However, you are right about Sun using Display PostScript later on; according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenWindows) NeWS was replaced by Display PostScript in v3.3 (1993). I didn't know that. :) --Toby > > --Chuck > > From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Oct 9 16:00:11 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 14:00:11 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: From: Josh Dersch Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 1:08 PM On 10/9/2011 12:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I think the MO was the single biggest thing that killed what would >> have been a great line of machines. > This may be apocryphal (I can't find a reliable source on this now that > I'm trying to look it up), but one thing I recall is that Jobs' original > vision for the optical drive was that the Cube would have *no* internal > storage (save maybe a small hard disk for paging) and each user would > have their own optical disk that the system would boot from, containing > the full OS, and the user's applications and files. It's an interesting > idea, in that a user could carry his whole world around with him. If > I'm recalling correctly, the original Cubes did ship in configurations > meeting that vision, but the drives were so slow and unreliable it > didn't take long for that idea to be dropped. It's not apocryphal. We got at least a dozen, more likely 2 dozen, Cubes at LOTS. The MO disk as personal universe was touted as a major advantage. As the OS went from 0.8 to 0.9 to 1.0, we provided upgrades to those students who had purchased disks. Remember that the NeXT cube was priced at $5,000 with a metric boat load of software. I priced out a Mac IIfx and an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (which were brand new at the same time, and comparable in processor specs) with the same software load (or nearest equivalents, if necessary). Both of them came in at close to $12,000. That was the university pricing, of course. > I have a Cube with an optical drive, never did bother trying to find > optical media for it... I wonder if it still works. I still have a couple of NeXT MO disks. They may have become highball coasters in the last 25 years, but next () time we're both at the SRCS meeting with your NeXT, we can try them out. (OK, now I have to dig them out of the closet.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 16:11:36 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:11:36 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > This may be apocryphal (I can't find a reliable source on this now that I'm > trying to look it up), but one thing I recall is that Jobs' original vision > for the optical drive was that the Cube would have *no* internal storage > (save maybe a small hard disk for paging) and each user would have their own > optical disk that the system would boot from, containing the full OS, and > the user's applications and files. ?It's an interesting idea, in that a user > could carry his whole world around with him. Yes, this matches what I have heard. Universities would have NeXTs in the labs, and the students and researches would just have the disk in their backpack. >?If I'm recalling correctly, > the original Cubes did ship in configurations meeting that vision, but the > drives were so slow and unreliable it didn't take long for that idea to be > dropped. Yes, but it sort of tarnished the first impression. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 9 16:20:28 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 14:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hmm, by what definition did they "first make the leap to SCSI"? Are you >> comparing just against an IBM-compatible PC, or do you maybe mean "first >> with on-board SCSI"? Or maybe "first with a machine costing less than $xxxx"? >> >> I'm just surprised, because there seemed to be a *lot* of systems that were >> (or could be made so, if not out of the box) SCSI-capable during the 80s. > > I would be very suprised if the Mac+ was the first computer to have a > SCSI interface. The Mac+ uses a stnadard single-chip SCSI cotnroller > (5380 IIRC), which was not designed to go into the Mac, or even to go > into a 68000 machine. It's a standard chip, off the shelf. > I've got an Ampro LittleBoard sitting on the shelf with that same interface. I suspect that machine also predates the Mac+, despite the fanboi revisionist histronics. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 16:46:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 14:46:40 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E920728.2040106@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E9193DF.20416.B98856@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E920728.2040106@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E91B3D0.363.1364EF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2011 at 16:42, Toby Thain wrote: > > Yes, Sun Draw/NeWS--first presented in 1985.May I assume that NeXT > > boxes were already out on the street by then? > > Hmm, SunDew paper by James Gosling is dated 1986, here: > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NetworkExtensibleWindowSystem My reference; http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/inf/literature/books/wm/p005.htm Transcript of conference proceedings, delivered April 1985. Springer- Verlag. ISBN 3-540-16116-3. > However, you are right about Sun using Display PostScript later on; > according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenWindows) NeWS > was replaced by Display PostScript in v3.3 (1993). I didn't know that. In particular, quoting from the above: Teitelman: The innovation here is not that we are using PostScript. The reason we chose PostScript is due to a lot of historical connections and proximity to the people who are doing it. Gosling: There is really nothing new here. It's just putting it together in a different way. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 16:53:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 14:53:36 -0700 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E9086EB.30839.1E244E0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 8, 11 05:22:51 pm, Message-ID: <4E91B570.5503.13CA8B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2011 at 20:52, Tony Duell wrote: > Probably from people who've never done 'real' electroncs. You know, > the sort that belive that the only thing you need to design and test > electronic circuits is a CAD workstation. I lump them with the sort that believes that because of some mysterious exception to the laws of thermodynamics, they can take a mason jar full of water and some electrodes, hook it to their auto's battery and get a 200% improvement in fuel economy by burning the electrolysis products. They're still out there and just as evangelical about it, but lately the Rossi eCAT LENR snake oil has attracted many of the faithful. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 17:01:59 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:01:59 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91B3D0.363.1364EF7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E9193DF.20416.B98856@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E920728.2040106@telegraphics.com.au> <4E91B3D0.363.1364EF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9219D7.9050701@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 5:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Oct 2011 at 16:42, Toby Thain wrote: > >>> Yes, Sun Draw/NeWS--first presented in 1985.May I assume that NeXT >>> boxes were already out on the street by then? >> >> Hmm, SunDew paper by James Gosling is dated 1986, here: >> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NetworkExtensibleWindowSystem > > My reference; > > http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/inf/literature/books/wm/p005.htm > > Transcript of conference proceedings, delivered April 1985. Springer- > Verlag. ISBN 3-540-16116-3. > >> However, you are right about Sun using Display PostScript later on; >> according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenWindows) NeWS >> was replaced by Display PostScript in v3.3 (1993). I didn't know that. > > In particular, quoting from the above: > > Teitelman: > The innovation here is not that we are using PostScript. The > reason we chose PostScript is due to a lot of historical connections > and proximity to the people who are doing it. Yes, they used PostScript (their own implementation) - they just didn't license *Display PostScript* per se from Adobe until later. NEXTSTEP used Display PostScript - which gave programs like Illustrator and Mathematica a bit of a leg-up. I got the NeWS early developer stuff at the time; I still have the binder. It was quite an interesting product. Pity the idea died off and Linux is still largely stuck with X11. --Toby > > Gosling: > There is really nothing new here. It's just putting it together > in a different way. > > --Chuck > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 17:10:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:10:44 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> On 10/09/2011 02:59 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > But here we are, in 2011, stuck with X11 on many systems. Better imaging > is one thing Steve Jobs got right, in NEXTSTEP and OS X. ...which is something that, in my opinion, makes the whole world work better. I feel that the OS X graphics system, while capable of beautiful rendering, is a huge step backward in functionality. I mean, c'mon, a non-networked windowing system, post-2000? What is this, Windows? WTF?! I will stick with X11! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 17:28:40 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:28:40 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 6:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/09/2011 02:59 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> But here we are, in 2011, stuck with X11 on many systems. Better imaging >> is one thing Steve Jobs got right, in NEXTSTEP and OS X. > > ...which is something that, in my opinion, makes the whole world work > better. I feel that the OS X graphics system, while capable of beautiful > rendering, is a huge step backward in functionality. I mean, c'mon, a > non-networked windowing system, post-2000? What is this, Windows? WTF?! > I will stick with X11! Well you have to admit that the motivating model for a networked window system - thin clients, approximately, or remote computing services - has largely evaporated in favour of a model of expensive per-person workstations with more CPU and GPU than they can ever use. I'm not arguing that the latter wasteful craziness makes any sense, but it does make a lot of money for the scum^H^H^H^H Gateses and Dells of the world. --T > > -Dave > From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 18:06:00 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 18:06:00 -0500 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago Message-ID: Got a line on a local Sperry Univac machine, model # unknown but appears to be a 1980s-era UNIX system. Only pics so far are here: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/SperryUnivacRack I believe it is at least two racks containing CPU, boards (probably lots of serial) and tape drive. System is located near Lisle, IL (western suburbs of Chicago.) If anyone is seriously interested and can arrange a pickup, contact me and I will put you in touch with the owner. Time, as always in these cases, is short. -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 18:28:18 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:28:18 -0400 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Got a line on a local Sperry Univac machine, model # unknown but > appears to be a 1980s-era UNIX system. ?Only pics so far are here: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/SperryUnivacRack > > I believe it is at least two racks containing CPU, boards (probably > lots of serial) and tape drive. ?System is located near Lisle, IL > (western suburbs of Chicago.) How long can he hold it? I will be swinging by Chicago in early November with a truck, and could drag it out East. Being that it is a Unix machine, I may not want it in the long run. But if it could run OS2200... -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 18:40:19 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 16:40:19 -0700 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2011 4:10 PM, "Jason T" wrote: > > Got a line on a local Sperry Univac machine, model # unknown but > appears to be a 1980s-era UNIX system. Only pics so far are here: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/SperryUnivacRack > Looks like it includes a couple of Fujitsu 9-track tape drives. Those are nice and fast if you need one and have space for a 200 pound tape drive. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 18:39:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:39:57 -0400 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2011, at 7:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Got a line on a local Sperry Univac machine, model # unknown but >> appears to be a 1980s-era UNIX system. Only pics so far are here: >> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/SperryUnivacRack >> >> I believe it is at least two racks containing CPU, boards (probably >> lots of serial) and tape drive. System is located near Lisle, IL >> (western suburbs of Chicago.) > > How long can he hold it? I will be swinging by Chicago in early > November with a truck, and could drag it out East. > > Being that it is a Unix machine, I may not want it in the long run. > But if it could run OS2200.. Hey, that looks like a Fujitsu M2444AC magtape drive on that system. If you don't want that, would you be willing to slide it in my direction? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 18:46:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:46:40 -0400 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A62ABA6-9586-4641-A173-E7D74D23B713@neurotica.com> On Oct 9, 2011, at 7:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Oct 9, 2011 4:10 PM, "Jason T" wrote: >> >> Got a line on a local Sperry Univac machine, model # unknown but >> appears to be a 1980s-era UNIX system. Only pics so far are here: >> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/SperryUnivacRack >> > > Looks like it includes a couple of Fujitsu 9-track tape drives. Those are > nice and fast if you need one and have space for a 200 pound tape drive. I both need and have space for them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 9 19:02:46 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 17:02:46 -0700 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <4E8B933A.1522.30B5FD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/4/11 11:14 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 4 Oct 2011 at 22:50, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> -sigh- need to open an IBM AT (5170) and someone thought they'd be >> funny, and locked the damn thing and took the key :( >> >> Any suggestions??? I'd like to not damage the case if possible. > > I don't think that the stock 5170 ever had a case lock. You might > have one with a gray trim plate on the back covering up all the > screws, but you just pry that gently off. That lock in the front of > the machine is for locking out the keyboard. Once you've got the > system open, just disconnect the leads that go to the motherboard and > you're in business. > > If you have some aftermarket lock, drill the bugger out with a nice > tough cobalt drill bit. > > --Chuck Looks like I have some work to do, I got the case off, the microswitch for the keyboard on/off is split in half (was held together by the plastic pin and the screw that held it in place. The lock itself is corroded. So much so that one of the pins is fused in place :( so it is out of there. The CMOS battery needs to be replaced, luckily it hadn't started to leak and drip from the pack. And the switches on the XCELX accelerator are broken and it won't even try to POST with those broken off. (bodies popped off, and I need to make sure that none of the metal parts from inside are shorting anything before applying power From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 19:16:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20111009171035.L98465@shell.lmi.net> > This may be apocryphal (I can't find a reliable source on this now that I'm > trying to look it up), but one thing I recall is that Jobs' original vision > for the optical drive was that the Cube would have *no* internal storage > (save maybe a small hard disk for paging) and each user would have their own > optical disk that the system would boot from, containing the full OS, and > the user's applications and files. ?It's an interesting idea, in that a user > could carry his whole world around with him. Just like the TRS80, Apple][, 5150, and the first Mac. Each student could carry around a boot disk containing the OS and their own materials. Eventually, for those students doing stuff other than Assembly Language programming, they would run out of space. But that is a QUANTITATIVE, not QUALITATIVE issue. Then we added network connection software to the student bootdisks, and they could share some resources, even compilers. Then the OS got too bloated to even fit on a floppy! Progress. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 19:19:27 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:19:27 -0700 Subject: Tek 4170 load available near Seattle In-Reply-To: References: <4E819DD1.16099.333D7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I went through the pile of 5.25 inch floppies that were included with the Tekronix 4170 systems and here's a list of the ones that have original Tektronix labels. There are multiple original sets of these so when I get around to creating disk images I can verify that the original disks binary compare and are hopefully good. I'll have to try to get TEKNICAD up and running. Should make for a good period demo for the 4207 graphics terminals. 4100P01 CP/M-86 (R) OPERATING SYSTEM VERSION/LEVEL 1.1/1.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1984 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P01 DTI AND BIOS SOURCE VERSION/LEVEL 1.1/1.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1984 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P01 FORTRAN VOLUME 1 OF 2 VERSION/LEVEL 2.2/1.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1984 PROGRAM COPYRIGHT BY INTEL CORPORATION 4100P01 FORTRAN VOLUME 2 OF 2 VERSION/LEVEL 2.2/1.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1984 PROGRAM COPYRIGHT BY INTEL CORPORATION 4100P01 GSX GRAPHICS SYSTEM EXTENSIONS VOLUME 1 OF 2 VERSION/LEVEL 1.1/1.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1984 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P01 GSX GRAPHICS SYSTEM EXTENSIONS VOLUME 2 OF 2 VERSION/LEVEL 1.1/1.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1984 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4170P73 PLOT 10 INTERACTIVE GRAPICS LIBRARY FUNDAMENTAL SUPPORT FOR 4170 - VOLUME 1 OF 2 VERSION/LEVEL 1.0 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1983 PROGRAM COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 4170P73 PLOT 10 INTERACTIVE GRAPICS LIBRARY FUNDAMENTAL SUPPORT FOR 4170 - VOLUME 2 OF 2 VERSION/LEVEL 1.0 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1983 PROGRAM COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. MODEM-86 VERSION/LEVEL 2-84/1.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1984 PROGRAM COPYRIGHT BY COMPUVIEW PRODUCTS INC. IDD PROGRAM EXCHANGE VERSION/LEVEL 3.2 4100 COLOR DRAWING BOARD Free Demonstration Program NOT TO BE SOLD. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SYSTEM SOFTWARE (4170) TekniCAD EXECUTABLE - VOLUME 1 OF 5 VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SYSTEM SOFTWARE (4170) TekniCAD EXECUTABLE - VOLUME 2 OF 5 VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SYSTEM SOFTWARE (4170) TekniCAD EXECUTABLE - VOLUME 3 OF 5 VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SYSTEM SOFTWARE (4170) TekniCAD EXECUTABLE - VOLUME 4 OF 5 VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SYSTEM SOFTWARE (4170) TekniCAD EXECUTABLE - VOLUME 5 OF 5 VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SYSTEM SOFTWARE (4170) TCADPLOT EXECUTABLE - VOLUME 1 OF 2 VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SYSTEM SOFTWARE (4170) TCADPLOT EXECUTABLE - VOLUME 2 OF 2 VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SAMPLE SYMBOLS (4170) VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. 4100P30 PLOT 10(R) TekniCAD SAMPLE DRAWINGS (4170) VERSION/LEVEL 8.2 COPYRIGHT TEKTRONIX, INC. 1985 TRADEMARK OF DIGITAL RESEARCH INC. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 19:22:50 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:22:50 -0500 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 6:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > How long can he hold it? I will be swinging by Chicago in early > November with a truck, and could drag it out East. > > Being that it is a Unix machine, I may not want it in the long run. > But if it could run OS2200... The owner is looking to clear out a storage unit, ASAP (as usual.) I am trying to work out retrieval and temporary storage myself. Barring a sudden love affair with 500+lbs of UNIX, I'd be willing to pass them on to you when you come through. Who's got background, ID, etc on these machines? I know zero about this line but it looks interesting. j From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 19:24:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 20:24:04 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E923B24.8080202@neurotica.com> On 10/09/2011 06:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> ...which is something that, in my opinion, makes the whole world work >> better. I feel that the OS X graphics system, while capable of beautiful >> rendering, is a huge step backward in functionality. I mean, c'mon, a >> non-networked windowing system, post-2000? What is this, Windows? WTF?! >> I will stick with X11! > > Well you have to admit that the motivating model for a networked window > system - thin clients, approximately, or remote computing services - has > largely evaporated in favour of a model of expensive per-person > workstations with more CPU and GPU than they can ever use. I'm not > arguing that the latter wasteful craziness makes any sense, but it does > make a lot of money for the scum^H^H^H^H Gateses and Dells of the world. Thin clients aren't the only place where a network-enabled windowing system is useful. I have a balls-ass powerful machine on my desktop, and I use X11's network capabilities daily. Granted it's more people like me (while wearing my "network administrator" hat) than the average nontechnical end-user, but still, that doesn't nullify the usefulness of the capability. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 19:34:19 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:34:19 -0500 Subject: [rescue] Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:29 PM, Patrick Giagnocavo wrote: > Pretty sure I see a tape unit in there (6250 being a typical TPI on such tape). > > Also a bunch of serial ports, I am assuming for terminals? Yep...just talked to the owner, he says there were about 30 terminals with it. They are all gone, along with all manuals, tapes, etc :( I am making arrangements for pickup. Stay tuned later in the week for updates... j From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Oct 9 19:47:31 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 17:47:31 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9240A3.7000402@mail.msu.edu> On 10/9/2011 3:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > Well you have to admit that the motivating model for a networked > window system - thin clients, approximately, or remote computing > services - has largely evaporated in favour of a model of expensive > per-person workstations with more CPU and GPU than they can ever use. > I'm not arguing that the latter wasteful craziness makes any sense, > but it does make a lot of money for the scum^H^H^H^H Gateses and Dells > of the world. Of course, Apple only sells thin client machines. They don't make a lot of money selling systems with more CPU and GPU power than a given person could ever use, running non-networked windowing systems. (What wasteful craziness that would be!). Nope, they're not scum, no sir. Josh From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Oct 9 20:01:32 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:01:32 -0400 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago Message-ID: >> https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/SperryUnivacRack > Hey, that looks like a Fujitsu M2444AC magtape drive on that system. If you don't want that, would you be willing to slide it in my direction? Not just one, but two! M2444 is pretty sweet. Oftentimes there is a proprietary interface but behind it (Well, beside it in the card cage) is chained the two-50-pin-Pertec-formatted interface. And of course a common option at least when these were used on Suns was SCSI-to-Pertec-Formatted bridge. Tim. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 20:20:30 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:20:30 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9240A3.7000402@mail.msu.edu> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9240A3.7000402@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E92485E.3050504@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 8:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 10/9/2011 3:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> Well you have to admit that the motivating model for a networked >> window system - thin clients, approximately, or remote computing >> services - has largely evaporated in favour of a model of expensive >> per-person workstations with more CPU and GPU than they can ever use. >> I'm not arguing that the latter wasteful craziness makes any sense, >> but it does make a lot of money for the scum^H^H^H^H Gateses and Dells >> of the world. > > Of course, Apple only sells thin client machines. They don't make a lot > of money selling systems with more CPU and GPU power than a given person > could ever use, running non-networked windowing systems. (What wasteful > craziness that would be!). Nope, they're not scum, no sir. Of course they're part of that same system. It's weird how people assume Apple users aren't Apple critics... I said earlier on this list that I have an overpowered Apple desktop. :) --T > > Josh > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 20:22:13 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:22:13 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E923B24.8080202@neurotica.com> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> <4E923B24.8080202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9248C5.6030105@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 8:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/09/2011 06:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> ...which is something that, in my opinion, makes the whole world work >>> better. I feel that the OS X graphics system, while capable of beautiful >>> rendering, is a huge step backward in functionality. I mean, c'mon, a >>> non-networked windowing system, post-2000? What is this, Windows? WTF?! >>> I will stick with X11! >> >> Well you have to admit that the motivating model for a networked window >> system - thin clients, approximately, or remote computing services - has >> largely evaporated in favour of a model of expensive per-person >> workstations with more CPU and GPU than they can ever use. I'm not >> arguing that the latter wasteful craziness makes any sense, but it does >> make a lot of money for the scum^H^H^H^H Gateses and Dells of the world. > > Thin clients aren't the only place where a network-enabled windowing > system is useful. I have a balls-ass powerful machine on my desktop, and > I use X11's network capabilities daily. Granted it's more people like me > (while wearing my "network administrator" hat) than the average > nontechnical end-user, but still, that doesn't nullify the usefulness of > the capability. As a sysadmin I've never wanted a GUI tool except, maybe, to consolidate status graphs, which can be done easily enough without a networked windowing system. Come to think of it, the web is probably what finally killed the concept, by implementing it in an unexpected but more versatile way. --Toby > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 20:22:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:22:33 -0700 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E91E669.5319.1FBF2F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2011 at 19:28, William Donzelli wrote: > Being that it is a Unix machine, I may not want it in the long run. > But if it could run OS2200... How about EXEC-8? :) --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 20:38:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 18:38:36 -0700 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: <4E8B933A.1522.30B5FD6@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E91EA2C.16878.20AA463@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2011 at 17:02, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Looks like I have some work to do, I got the case off, the microswitch > for the keyboard on/off is split in half (was held together by the > plastic pin and the screw that held it in place. Fortunately, microswitches are easy to come by, either at your friendly electronics supplier or stripped out of electronic junk, such as printers and appliances. > The lock itself is corroded. So much so that one of the pins is fused > in place :( so it is out of there. Replacements shouldn't be too difficult to find. > The CMOS battery needs to be replaced, luckily it hadn't started to > leak and drip from the pack. > And the switches on the XCELX accelerator are broken and it won't even > try to POST with those broken off. (bodies popped off, and I need to > make sure that none of the metal parts from inside are shorting > anything before applying power All of which can be replaced economically. Congratulations on your prize! --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 20:41:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:41:13 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9248C5.6030105@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> <4E923B24.8080202@neurotica.com> <4E9248C5.6030105@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E924D39.3090905@neurotica.com> On 10/09/2011 09:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> ...which is something that, in my opinion, makes the whole world work >>>> better. I feel that the OS X graphics system, while capable of >>>> beautiful >>>> rendering, is a huge step backward in functionality. I mean, c'mon, a >>>> non-networked windowing system, post-2000? What is this, Windows? WTF?! >>>> I will stick with X11! >>> >>> Well you have to admit that the motivating model for a networked window >>> system - thin clients, approximately, or remote computing services - has >>> largely evaporated in favour of a model of expensive per-person >>> workstations with more CPU and GPU than they can ever use. I'm not >>> arguing that the latter wasteful craziness makes any sense, but it does >>> make a lot of money for the scum^H^H^H^H Gateses and Dells of the world. >> >> Thin clients aren't the only place where a network-enabled windowing >> system is useful. I have a balls-ass powerful machine on my desktop, and >> I use X11's network capabilities daily. Granted it's more people like me >> (while wearing my "network administrator" hat) than the average >> nontechnical end-user, but still, that doesn't nullify the usefulness of >> the capability. > > As a sysadmin I've never wanted a GUI tool except, maybe, to consolidate > status graphs, which can be done easily enough without a networked > windowing system. Come to think of it, the web is probably what finally > killed the concept, by implementing it in an unexpected but more > versatile way. How, exactly, is running something in a web browser "more versatile" than running a purpose-built app with a GUI? WTF? I'm a command line guy, but I do use GUIs for some stuff. I don't WANT to install the Veritas NetBackup client on my desktop workstation, though, for example. I run it on the big Sun downstairs, and display it up here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 20:44:04 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:44:04 -0500 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: <4E91E669.5319.1FBF2F9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E91E669.5319.1FBF2F9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ask this guy he might know where u can find info on sperry stuff http://ganetsky.com/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 9 21:01:46 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 22:01:46 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E924D39.3090905@neurotica.com> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> <4E923B24.8080202@neurotica.com> <4E9248C5.6030105@telegraphics.com.au> <4E924D39.3090905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E92520A.8010502@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/10/11 9:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/09/2011 09:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> ...which is something that, in my opinion, makes the whole world work >>>>> better. I feel that the OS X graphics system, while capable of >>>>> beautiful >>>>> rendering, is a huge step backward in functionality. I mean, c'mon, a >>>>> non-networked windowing system, post-2000? What is this, Windows? >>>>> WTF?! >>>>> I will stick with X11! >>>> >>>> Well you have to admit that the motivating model for a networked window >>>> system - thin clients, approximately, or remote computing services - >>>> has >>>> largely evaporated in favour of a model of expensive per-person >>>> workstations with more CPU and GPU than they can ever use. I'm not >>>> arguing that the latter wasteful craziness makes any sense, but it does >>>> make a lot of money for the scum^H^H^H^H Gateses and Dells of the >>>> world. >>> >>> Thin clients aren't the only place where a network-enabled windowing >>> system is useful. I have a balls-ass powerful machine on my desktop, and >>> I use X11's network capabilities daily. Granted it's more people like me >>> (while wearing my "network administrator" hat) than the average >>> nontechnical end-user, but still, that doesn't nullify the usefulness of >>> the capability. >> >> As a sysadmin I've never wanted a GUI tool except, maybe, to consolidate >> status graphs, which can be done easily enough without a networked >> windowing system. Come to think of it, the web is probably what finally >> killed the concept, by implementing it in an unexpected but more >> versatile way. > > How, exactly, is running something in a web browser "more versatile" > than running a purpose-built app with a GUI? WTF? I think you answered your own question. It's more portable than any app, etc. > > I'm a command line guy, but I do use GUIs for some stuff. I don't WANT > to install the Veritas NetBackup client on my desktop workstation, > though, for example. I run it on the big Sun downstairs, and display it > up here. Well, there you go. I'd rather not deal with NetBackup :) --T > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 21:33:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 22:33:41 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E92520A.8010502@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> <4E923B24.8080202@neurotica.com> <4E9248C5.6030105@telegraphics.com.au> <4E924D39.3090905@neurotica.com> <4E92520A.8010502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E925985.8040702@neurotica.com> On 10/09/2011 10:01 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Thin clients aren't the only place where a network-enabled windowing >>>> system is useful. I have a balls-ass powerful machine on my desktop, >>>> and >>>> I use X11's network capabilities daily. Granted it's more people >>>> like me >>>> (while wearing my "network administrator" hat) than the average >>>> nontechnical end-user, but still, that doesn't nullify the >>>> usefulness of >>>> the capability. >>> >>> As a sysadmin I've never wanted a GUI tool except, maybe, to consolidate >>> status graphs, which can be done easily enough without a networked >>> windowing system. Come to think of it, the web is probably what finally >>> killed the concept, by implementing it in an unexpected but more >>> versatile way. >> >> How, exactly, is running something in a web browser "more versatile" >> than running a purpose-built app with a GUI? WTF? > > I think you answered your own question. It's more portable than any app, > etc. Yes of course. If you want to put up with a crappy user interface. Get the best of both worlds with a modern (say, post-1990!) windowing system that actually, you know, knows about networks! >> I'm a command line guy, but I do use GUIs for some stuff. I don't WANT >> to install the Veritas NetBackup client on my desktop workstation, >> though, for example. I run it on the big Sun downstairs, and display it >> up here. > > Well, there you go. I'd rather not deal with NetBackup :) I like it quite a bit, myself. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Oct 9 21:45:48 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 19:45:48 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E92485E.3050504@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> <4E922018.8090207@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9240A3.7000402@mail.msu.edu> <4E92485E.3050504@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E925C5C.6030507@mail.msu.edu> On 10/9/2011 6:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 09/10/11 8:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> >> On 10/9/2011 3:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> >>> Well you have to admit that the motivating model for a networked >>> window system - thin clients, approximately, or remote computing >>> services - has largely evaporated in favour of a model of expensive >>> per-person workstations with more CPU and GPU than they can ever use. >>> I'm not arguing that the latter wasteful craziness makes any sense, >>> but it does make a lot of money for the scum^H^H^H^H Gateses and Dells >>> of the world. >> >> Of course, Apple only sells thin client machines. They don't make a lot >> of money selling systems with more CPU and GPU power than a given person >> could ever use, running non-networked windowing systems. (What wasteful >> craziness that would be!). Nope, they're not scum, no sir. > > Of course they're part of that same system. It's weird how people > assume Apple users aren't Apple critics... Well, had you included Apple in your "Gateses and Dells" line above, I perhaps wouldn't have made such an assumption. - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Oct 9 21:47:43 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 19:47:43 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111009171035.L98465@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> <20111009171035.L98465@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E925CCF.70005@mail.msu.edu> On 10/9/2011 5:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> This may be apocryphal (I can't find a reliable source on this now that I'm >> trying to look it up), but one thing I recall is that Jobs' original vision >> for the optical drive was that the Cube would have *no* internal storage >> (save maybe a small hard disk for paging) and each user would have their own >> optical disk that the system would boot from, containing the full OS, and >> the user's applications and files. It's an interesting idea, in that a user >> could carry his whole world around with him. > Just like the TRS80, Apple][, 5150, and the first Mac. > Each student could carry around a boot disk containing the OS and their > own materials. > > Eventually, for those students doing stuff other than Assembly Language > programming, they would run out of space. But that is a QUANTITATIVE, not > QUALITATIVE issue. > > Then we added network connection software to the student bootdisks, and > they could share some resources, even compilers. > > > Then the OS got too bloated to even fit on a floppy! > > Progress. :). I perhaps should have added the qualifier, "It's an interesting idea -for a UNIX system- ..." to my original statement. - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Oct 9 21:52:48 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 19:52:48 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E925E00.4050503@mail.msu.edu> On 10/9/2011 2:00 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 1:08 PM > >> This may be apocryphal (I can't find a reliable source on this now that >> I'm trying to look it up), but one thing I recall is that Jobs' original >> vision for the optical drive was that the Cube would have *no* internal >> storage (save maybe a small hard disk for paging) and each user would >> have their own optical disk that the system would boot from, containing >> the full OS, and the user's applications and files. It's an interesting >> idea, in that a user could carry his whole world around with him. If >> I'm recalling correctly, the original Cubes did ship in configurations >> meeting that vision, but the drives were so slow and unreliable it >> didn't take long for that idea to be dropped. > It's not apocryphal. > > We got at least a dozen, more likely 2 dozen, Cubes at LOTS. The MO disk > as personal universe was touted as a major advantage. As the OS went from > 0.8 to 0.9 to 1.0, we provided upgrades to those students who had purchased > disks. > > Remember that the NeXT cube was priced at $5,000 with a metric boat load > of software. I priced out a Mac IIfx and an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (which were > brand new at the same time, and comparable in processor specs) with the > same software load (or nearest equivalents, if necessary). Both of them > came in at close to $12,000. That was the university pricing, of course. Definitely. Very cool machine for the cost, and the OS and software were amazing. (And I'm having a hard time picturing a PS/2 Model 80 being in league with one... yow.) How long did you stick with the optical drives? >> I have a Cube with an optical drive, never did bother trying to find >> optical media for it... I wonder if it still works. > I still have a couple of NeXT MO disks. They may have become highball > coasters in the last 25 years, but next () time we're both at the > SRCS meeting with your NeXT, we can try them out. (OK, now I have to dig > them out of the closet.) Cool -- I'd be happy to bring mine along, just let me know when you're going to be attending! - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 22:35:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 23:35:20 -0400 Subject: Free: Sperry Univac machine near Chicago In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15F71645-A6DA-4B9D-9030-D0CE1042358E@neurotica.com> On Oct 9, 2011, at 9:01 PM, "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: >>> https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/SperryUnivacRack >> Hey, that looks like a Fujitsu M2444AC magtape drive on that system. If you don't want that, would you be willing to slide it in my direction? > > Not just one, but two! > > M2444 is pretty sweet. Oftentimes there is a proprietary interface but behind it (Well, beside it in the card cage) is chained the two-50-pin-Pertec-formatted interface. > > And of course a common option at least when these were used on Suns was SCSI-to-Pertec-Formatted bridge. Oh interesting...I've used a bunch of those on Suns back in the day, but only connected to Xylogics 472 tape controllers. I'd dearly love to find some of those SCSI to Pertec bridges. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 9 23:21:46 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:21:46 -0700 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <4E91EA2C.16878.20AA463@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/9/11 6:38 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 9 Oct 2011 at 17:02, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> Looks like I have some work to do, I got the case off, the microswitch >> for the keyboard on/off is split in half (was held together by the >> plastic pin and the screw that held it in place. > > Fortunately, microswitches are easy to come by, either at your > friendly electronics supplier or stripped out of electronic junk, > such as printers and appliances. > >> The lock itself is corroded. So much so that one of the pins is fused >> in place :( so it is out of there. > > Replacements shouldn't be too difficult to find. > >> The CMOS battery needs to be replaced, luckily it hadn't started to >> leak and drip from the pack. > >> And the switches on the XCELX accelerator are broken and it won't even >> try to POST with those broken off. (bodies popped off, and I need to >> make sure that none of the metal parts from inside are shorting >> anything before applying power > > All of which can be replaced economically. > > Congratulations on your prize! > > --Chuck We have a large selection of lock assemblies I can put in :) one of the benefits of living with a locksmith in the house :) if I decide to not go stock and put something like a high security lock into it or something (just to get the experience of re-pinning one) One thing I'm annoyed about is that someone pulled the '287 chip :( oh well, I may actually have one of those floating around... I may even still have the 10+ MHZ one I salvaged from a dumpstered pc years ago. I figure I'll need to put $20 in parts into it before I go and fire it up. It has an AST ram card and another I have yet to ID. A mountain HDD on a card, and a regular MFM/FDD controller and drive(s) there is a Orchid VEGA EGA card in it, but I have a 1MB Tseng ET4000 VGA card to go into it :) so I can use it on my KVM... From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 9 23:25:16 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:25:16 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E924D39.3090905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/9/11 6:41 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > How, exactly, is running something in a web browser "more versatile" > than running a purpose-built app with a GUI? WTF? > > I'm a command line guy, but I do use GUIs for some stuff. I don't > WANT to install the Veritas NetBackup client on my desktop workstation, > though, for example. I run it on the big Sun downstairs, and display it > up here. > > -Dave Dunno, but I CAN tell you that rsync, cp or mv at the command line is a hell of a lot faster than drag and drop copy in OSX finder.... Or on whichever the current solaris default GUI From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 23:42:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111009214119.C98465@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > One thing I'm annoyed about is that someone pulled the '287 chip :( oh They came stock with an empty socket. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 9 23:54:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 00:54:08 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E927A70.7020705@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 12:25 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> How, exactly, is running something in a web browser "more versatile" >> than running a purpose-built app with a GUI? WTF? >> >> I'm a command line guy, but I do use GUIs for some stuff. I don't >> WANT to install the Veritas NetBackup client on my desktop workstation, >> though, for example. I run it on the big Sun downstairs, and display it >> up here. > > Dunno, but I CAN tell you that rsync, cp or mv at the command line is a hell > of a lot faster than drag and drop copy in OSX finder.... Or on whichever > the current solaris default GUI Of course. But DON'T paint me as a GUI guy...Toby doesn't know me, but YOU do. I use them when they're a better interface (NetBackup), and I don't when they're not (manipulating files in almost any way). -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 02:59:51 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:59:51 +0200 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91FF36.3080807@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E92A5F7.3010702@gmail.com> On 2011-10-09 22:08, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a Cube with an optical drive, never did bother trying to find > optical media for it... I wonder if it still works. Did you reverse the case fan? If not, give that drive a good cleaning before ever sticking any media into it. .tsooJ From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 09:03:37 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:03:37 +0100 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 9 October 2011 23:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/09/2011 02:59 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> But here we are, in 2011, stuck with X11 on many systems. Better imaging >> is one thing Steve Jobs got right, in NEXTSTEP and OS X. > > ?...which is something that, in my opinion, makes the whole world work > better. ?I feel that the OS X graphics system, while capable of beautiful > rendering, is a huge step backward in functionality. ?I mean, c'mon, a > non-networked windowing system, post-2000? ?What is this, Windows? ?WTF?! ?I > will stick with X11! I think it had its place at one time, but it's not really got one any more. CPU, RAM and disk are all very, very cheap now. Local processing and rendering cost effectively nothing and the network stuff is just in the way - for the deployment of 99% of Unix boxes now (Linux and Mac PCs, iOS and Android phones and slates, a lot of routers and a relatively small number of servers), a networkable GUI is not merely irrelevant, it's baggage. What is expensive is *state* - maintaining configuration files, patching, updating and so on. Currently the trendy kids are playing with whole-system virtualisation for this. It's laughably inefficient but it costs lots for all the licences - which of course the proprietary-S/W vendors *love*. I expect it will go away in time and we'll end up with something like Solaris Zones or FreeBSD jails in the end, or some other OS-level virtualisation solution. Or perhaps even a return to network-booting workstations, but with lots of local caching this time. X was about sharing CPU and rendering power over the network, and that is 1980s thinking. There is just no need for it any more. It's a waste of bandwidth. Even Ubuntu is seriously looking into getting rid of X.11 and moving to Wayland, with networking relegated to a legacy-compatibility submodule. I have been installing, maintaining and using Unix machines since 1988 - probably a newbie around here - and I have never *once* used X over a network. For remote-control, it's rdesktop/mstsc for Windows machines and something involving VNC for everything else. All IMHO, natch... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cctalk at catcorner.org Mon Oct 10 09:14:59 2011 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:14:59 -0400 Subject: Tandy Videotex and Office Information System Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15B21@meow.catcorner.org> In July of 1983 Tandy announced the "Tandy Videotex and Office Information System" that ran under Xenix. It was an early attempt at a hypertext system. It used dialup lines and was hosted on Tandy Model 16b (and later 6000) computers. An 8 port and 16 port multiplexor (that's how they spelled it) were announced. I don't know if either ever shipped. There is some information available in the July 25, 1983 issue of InfoWorld. There is also an article in "TRS-80 Microcomputer News" V5,I 11 (#54 ). I used to run one of these for a local company (that I still work for). Does anyone have the manuals or software from one of these systems? I still have the hardware (not the mux, just the 16b and hard drive). Kelly From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 10 10:31:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:31:37 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E91D0AC.1020009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E91D62C.1060200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9186C6.12811.866064@cclist.sydex.com> <4E91EF2B.7080306@telegraphics.com.au> <4E921BE4.4000503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E930FD9.6080503@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 10:03 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> But here we are, in 2011, stuck with X11 on many systems. Better imaging >>> is one thing Steve Jobs got right, in NEXTSTEP and OS X. >> >> ...which is something that, in my opinion, makes the whole world work >> better. I feel that the OS X graphics system, while capable of beautiful >> rendering, is a huge step backward in functionality. I mean, c'mon, a >> non-networked windowing system, post-2000? What is this, Windows? WTF?! I >> will stick with X11! > > I think it had its place at one time, but it's not really got one any more. Not for you, apparently! ;) Others hold different opinions, though. > CPU, RAM and disk are all very, very cheap now. Local processing and > rendering cost effectively nothing and the network stuff is just in > the way - for the deployment of 99% of Unix boxes now (Linux and Mac > PCs, iOS and Android phones and slates, a lot of routers and a > relatively small number of servers), a networkable GUI is not merely > irrelevant, it's baggage. For end-users on cell phones, of course. And again, irrelevant to you, perhaps. I and many others use it heavily. > What is expensive is *state* - maintaining configuration files, > patching, updating and so on. Currently the trendy kids are playing > with whole-system virtualisation for this. It's laughably inefficient > but it costs lots for all the licences - which of course the > proprietary-S/W vendors *love*. I expect it will go away in time and > we'll end up with something like Solaris Zones or FreeBSD jails in the > end, or some other OS-level virtualisation solution. Or perhaps even a > return to network-booting workstations, but with lots of local caching > this time. This addresses a different problem. People use X today for different reasons than they did twenty years ago, just like pretty much everything else. > X was about sharing CPU and rendering power over the network, and that > is 1980s thinking. There is just no need for it any more. You don't need it, that doesn't mean nobody else does. You are correct of course about its early reason for being, but as you know, things evolve; it's used to great benefit today for reasons other than wimpy computers. As a quick case in point, I have a hugely powerful computer a few hundred feet away, and a hugely powerful computer in front of me. This morning, I am editing a large file on the far-away one. I choose to do it via emacs over X11, because it's easier and faster. It's a trivial example, but sometimes those are the best kinds. People do stuff like this all the time. Both of the companies I'm working for work this way company-wide. > It's a waste of bandwidth. Hardly! It only uses network bandwidth if it's getting USED over a network, and if that's happening, it's being used because it's needed, which makes it most assuredly NOT a waste of bandwidth. When used locally, with server and clients on the same system, it uses no network bandwidth at all. Not "a little", but NONE. > Even Ubuntu is seriously looking into getting rid of X.11 and moving > to Wayland, with networking relegated to a legacy-compatibility > submodule. Yes, I'm aware. Don't misinterpret the reasons for that, though. The Ubuntu decision makers have gotten really big heads about how wildly popular their distribution has become, and they're pulling the whole "we own the world now, so let's change some stuff for the sake of changing it" crap. They did the same thing with Unity, which has a userbase penetration of essentially zero (pretty much everyone who learns it can be turned off does so immediately), forcing it down peoples' throats by making it the default in Ubuntu 11. Fortunately you can change it at the login screen, which every Ubuntu 11 user I know of has done. This is another example of the Ubuntu group flirting with unilaterally deciding how we should use our machines, which is why I just dumped MacOS X as my primary desktop platform after years of loving it. That said, though, I understand the logic behind what they're doing. Ubuntu is competing with both Windows and OS X, and in every case I've seen they're doing so very successfully. They're targeting primarily nontechnical end-users. However, as an OS for highly technical users, such as myself, it gives the aesthetic beauty and ease-of-use of an end-user-oriented platform without taking away any of the power...a line MacOS X started crossing a few releases ago. (which is why I dumped it) In other words, X11 isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It has stood the test of time on hundreds of platforms for decades...One widely-contested suggestion from the maintainers of one distribution on one platform isn't going to change that. And please don't think I'm poo-pooing Ubuntu, I just switched TO Ubuntu 11 as my main desktop platform a couple of months ago...a monumental personal decision which I take with the same level of seriousness and consideration as switching spouses. (I'm sorry that got so long! I wanted to clearly explain my position.) > I have been installing, maintaining and using Unix machines since 1988 > - probably a newbie around here - and I have never *once* used X over > a network. For remote-control, it's rdesktop/mstsc for Windows > machines and something involving VNC for everything else. Our usage patterns are clearly very different. (and there's nothing at all wrong with that of course) I've been doing the same for about as long, and I've used X over networks daily since then. First for the reasons you mentioned above, distributed computing power, and now (from maybe 1994 on) for convenience. I use it to great advantage, and I don't see myself NOT using it anytime soon. VNC and related technologies work of course, but I consider them to be gigantic kludges. > All IMHO, natch... Mine too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From technobug at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 13:26:09 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:26:09 -0700 Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone attempted to do so or has disassembled the disk enclosure? I would like to know if the heads are parked on or off the disks. TIA -> CRC From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Oct 10 13:27:53 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:27:53 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 Message-ID: >> How, exactly, is running something in a web browser "more versatile" >> than running a purpose-built app with a GUI? WTF? To me a "purpose built app with a GUI" is the very definition of "vendor lock-in" and "A PC for every function". To me "vendor lock-in" means "look you have the versatility of running it on this one PC with a mouse and a keyboard and if you want to do it any other way you can pay us for as many copies as you want!". Whereas a web interface means that the display terminal and application server are now decoupled with a strong implication of scalability up the wazoo. (I know, it's all too easy to make it unscalable, or to embed Windows Controls in a web application and tie the browser to a specific Windows build.) It also implies that multiple applications are accessible simultaneously just by opening more browser windows - and means you don't have to swap 10,000 PC's every time you upgrade the central server. To me a web interface is way preferable to say a 3270 for filling forms. I know, the hot-shot mainframe app people had some pretty slick user interfaces on the 3270's for some popular mainframe applications. I've seen good ones and I appreciate them. But the vast majority of 3270 user interfaces sucked rocks. I'm not saying there aren't some really sucky webpages out there but custom roll-your-own-GUI-inside-the-web-page design seems to be very much on the decline, thank god. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 10 13:56:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:56:02 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 02:27 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> How, exactly, is running something in a web browser "more >>> versatile" than running a purpose-built app with a GUI? WTF? > > To me a "purpose built app with a GUI" is the very definition of > "vendor lock-in" and "A PC for every function". What? Do you know what X11 *does*? Surely you do. I know who you are, and I know a bit about your (gigantic) level of experience. > To me "vendor lock-in" means "look you have the versatility of > running it on this one PC with a mouse and a keyboard and if you want > to do it any other way you can pay us for as many copies as you > want!". I'm hearing the twilight zone theme here. X11 certainly doesn't work that way. Windows and MacOS X DO work that way, as does the Wayland system, which is one way in which they suck. So, to completely avoid vendor lock-in and "a PC for every function", I've used (and will continue to use) X11. > Whereas a web interface means that the display terminal and > application server are now decoupled with a strong implication of > scalability up the wazoo. (I know, it's all too easy to make it > unscalable, or to embed Windows Controls in a web application and tie > the browser to a specific Windows build.) It also implies that > multiple applications are accessible simultaneously just by opening > more browser windows - and means you don't have to swap 10,000 PC's > every time you upgrade the central server. ...which is exactly what X11 achieved decades ago! Except, of course, it's not limited to the abuse of HTML and HTTP for other-than-intended uses, and it doesn't rely on tons of runtime-interpreted code, and doesn't produce slow, clunky, barely-usable interfaces like web browsers do when used for most anything other than...well, you know, web browsing. People used to give Richard Stallman static for directly using emacs as his shell as specified in /etc/passwd. Shit, now people want to do it with a web browser, and nobody seems to get why this is a patently stupid idea on about a dozen different levels. WTF? > I'm not saying there > aren't some really sucky webpages out there but custom > roll-your-own-GUI-inside-the-web-page design seems to be very much on > the decline, thank god. Again with the "twilight zone" theme. These interfaces are on the rise, in a roaring way, to a tremendous degree. Google Apps and their ilk, GWT-based apps, AJAX, "Web 2.0" etc etc etc all fall under this category. Everything is going that way. It is a huge, bloated, bandwidth-wasting, cycle-wasting mess. Wow what a weird-ass thread. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 10 14:23:30 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: web browsers eat planet was Re: Let's talk NeXT In-Reply-To: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 10, 11 02:56:02 pm" Message-ID: <201110101923.p9AJNUMI021380@floodgap.com> > Again with the "twilight zone" theme. These interfaces are on the > rise, in a roaring way, to a tremendous degree. Google Apps and their > ilk, GWT-based apps, AJAX, "Web 2.0" etc etc etc all fall under this > category. Everything is going that way. It is a huge, bloated, > bandwidth-wasting, cycle-wasting mess. Don't look at me, I was happy with gopherspace. gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense. -------------- From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 10 14:35:13 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:35:13 -0400 Subject: Layers and Layers of Abstraction (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9348F1.5030006@arachelian.com> On 10/10/2011 02:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > People used to give Richard Stallman static for directly using emacs > as his shell as specified in /etc/passwd. Shit, now people want to do > it with a web browser, and nobody seems to get why this is a patently > stupid idea on about a dozen different levels. WTF? > Again with the "twilight zone" theme. These interfaces are on the > rise, in a roaring way, to a tremendous degree. Google Apps and their > ilk, GWT-based apps, AJAX, "Web 2.0" etc etc etc all fall under this > category. Everything is going that way. It is a huge, bloated, > bandwidth-wasting, cycle-wasting mess. I imagine that's what they guys that programmed using jumpers said about Von Neumann architecture. I imagine that's what the switch flippers said about installing a monitor ROM or a boot loader. I imagine that's what the monitor users said about an operating system. I imagine that's what the operating system users said about using a compiler instead of coding in assembler. I imagine that's what the static language guys said about the dynamic languages. etc... It's all meta, meta, meta. How close you and I are to the silicon isn't the same as how close Joe User wants to be. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 10 14:25:51 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:25:51 -0500 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110101945.p9AJj12V060038@billy.ezwind.net> At 01:56 PM 10/10/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Again with the "twilight zone" theme. These interfaces are on the rise, in a roaring way, to a tremendous degree. Google Apps and their ilk, GWT-based apps, AJAX, "Web 2.0" etc etc etc all fall under this category. Everything is going that way. It is a huge, bloated, bandwidth-wasting, cycle-wasting mess. No, it's going to be ever more weird than that, as companies have discovered how to run an app anywhere (without insttallation) as well as newer VNC / who-knows-what like VMware AppBlast that'll put your Windows or OS X desktop or app in any web browser on seemingly any device. http://goo.gl/1jrOJ - John From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Oct 10 14:45:06 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:45:06 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 Message-ID: > So, to completely avoid > vendor lock-in and "a PC for every function", I've used (and will > continue to use) X11. I don't have any problem with X11 as long as you run a standards-compliant web browser in an X11 window :-). Or an xterm. There's very little today I do in X11 that isn't in a web browser or an xterm, don't you know :-) X11 just does not satisfy me as a way to define a high-information-content user interface. It's certainly capable of delivering a high-information-content user interface but it doesn't define it. The web by itself isn't too fancy but couple with Javascript, AJAX, SVG and other high-information-value media of interchange, and boy is it fun to work in! With just a little care, apps scale up enormously and deploy with so little effort on my part. You might note I left out many common web standards as being high information value. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 10 14:49:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:49:59 -0400 Subject: Layers and Layers of Abstraction (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E9348F1.5030006@arachelian.com> References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> <4E9348F1.5030006@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E934C67.2090307@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 03:35 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> People used to give Richard Stallman static for directly using emacs >> as his shell as specified in /etc/passwd. Shit, now people want to do >> it with a web browser, and nobody seems to get why this is a patently >> stupid idea on about a dozen different levels. WTF? > >> Again with the "twilight zone" theme. These interfaces are on the >> rise, in a roaring way, to a tremendous degree. Google Apps and their >> ilk, GWT-based apps, AJAX, "Web 2.0" etc etc etc all fall under this >> category. Everything is going that way. It is a huge, bloated, >> bandwidth-wasting, cycle-wasting mess. > > I imagine that's what they guys that programmed using jumpers said about > Von Neumann architecture. I haven't been in that situation, but knowing a bit about the history, I sincerely doubt that. > I imagine that's what the switch flippers said about installing a > monitor ROM or a boot loader. Definitely not; I've been in that situation myself. > I imagine that's what the monitor users said about an operating system. Ditto. > I imagine that's what the operating system users said about using a > compiler instead of coding in assembler. Yes, sometimes, but not usually. (been there too) > I imagine that's what the static language guys said about the dynamic > languages. I'd agree with that. > etc... > > It's all meta, meta, meta. How close you and I are to the silicon isn't > the same as how close Joe User wants to be. I don't think I've ever known of anyone who WANTS everything to be in a web browser. At least, not people who actually know what a web browser is or when they are or aren't running one. Further, we weren't actually talking about "Joe User". I simply cannot fathom the notion that supposedly technically adept and experienced people advocate the use of a web browser as the end-all, be-all user interface. Further, the notion that it is somehow an anti-vendor-lock-in device is nothing short of laughable, when hordes of people are being paid to develop websites which are only compatible with ONE proprietary web browser from ONE out-in-left-field company that only runs on ONE platform and is largely incompatible with the dozen or so other web browsers out there, not to mention the friggin' STANDARDS themselves. Fortunately that's on the wane, but it was VERY big for a long time, and still persists in some backwaters. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 15:01:20 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:01:20 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Let's see - the level creation tools for the first incarnation of id's Doom were built on a NeXT, as was Berners-Lee first web server and browser. The interface for Mathematica was designed on NeXT as well. Modern day MacOS X is heavily influenced by NeXTStep and it's Objective-C development environment, as is iOS. WebObjects was a fairly popular application framework in the late 90's and early 2000's - I know of a few major websites that used to run it. I'd say NeXT was relatively successful, in that it was used to create popular products and had a direct impact on later products. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 10 15:04:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:04:37 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 03:45 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> So, to completely avoid vendor lock-in and "a PC for every >> function", I've used (and will continue to use) X11. > > I don't have any problem with X11 as long as you run a > standards-compliant web browser in an X11 window :-). Or an xterm. Which I do. > There's very little today I do in X11 that isn't in a web browser or > an xterm, don't you know :-) I do a whole lot of both as well, but I also run schematic capture software, PCB routing software, PDF viewers, and image viewers, all pretty much daily. More and more I run Xilinx ISE. When editing anything "serious" (meaning I'll be in the editor for more than 20 seconds) I run emacs, almost always in X11 mode. I also run the occasional user interface for "big" software like NetBackup, but only every so often. Also the remotely-displayed user interface for my logic analyzer. > X11 just does not satisfy me as a way to define a > high-information-content user interface. It's certainly capable of > delivering a high-information-content user interface but it doesn't > define it. I agree with the latter, but for the former, it does satisfy me. (that's not to say that I think it should satisfy you) There's really nothing that can be done on a graphics display that X cannot do in one way or another, in an almost entirely device- and architecture-independent way. It's goal is not to "define" user interfaces, but to provide a mechanism for creating them. > The web by itself isn't too fancy but couple with Javascript, AJAX, > SVG and other high-information-value media of interchange, and boy is > it fun to work in! With just a little care, apps scale up enormously > and deploy with so little effort on my part. Yes, some of the stuff they're abusing the protocols and bandwidth to do are pretty impressive. Using them, however, TO ME, feels like riding a bike with square wheels. X is a pretty "heavy" protocol in terms of bandwidth utilization, but it's positively miserly when compared to XML or JSON! > You might note I left out many common web standards as being high > information value. Noted and agreed! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 15:10:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:10:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E91B570.5503.13CA8B2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 9, 11 02:53:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Oct 2011 at 20:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Probably from people who've never done 'real' electroncs. You know, > > the sort that belive that the only thing you need to design and test > > electronic circuits is a CAD workstation. > > I lump them with the sort that believes that because of some > mysterious exception to the laws of thermodynamics, they can take a And those who believe that replacing the mains cable to your audio amplifer with some special one will improve the sound (ignoring the fact that there's a good length of normal cable between the substation transformer and the wall socket). And those that believe in a '360W' speaker system for a PC that runs off a 12V 1A mains adapater. > mason jar full of water and some electrodes, hook it to their auto's > battery and get a 200% improvement in fuel economy by burning the > electrolysis products. Now that's one I've not heard of... I have seen a jeweller's soldering torch that works by electrolysing water (using power from the mains) and then brunign the resulting H_2 and O_2 to probvide the soldering flame, but that violates no laws. The energy uoi get from the flame comes from the mains electricity supply. > > They're still out there and just as evangelical about it, but lately > the Rossi eCAT LENR snake oil has attracted many of the faithful. Oh well... A fool and his money are soon parted. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 15:49:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:49:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement In-Reply-To: from "CRC" at Oct 10, 11 11:26:09 am Message-ID: > > Has anyone attempted to do so or has disassembled the disk enclosure? > I would like to know if the heads are parked on or off the disks. Ive never taken one apart (I don't even own one), but I do have the service manual. I can see if there's anything in there. I know it doesn't cover repairs inside the HDA (not surpisingly, it states that the HDA mustn't be opened outside a clean room), but it does have a theory-of-operation section which has soem diagrams of the HDA. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 15:28:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:28:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Oct 9, 11 05:02:46 pm Message-ID: > Looks like I have some work to do, I got the case off, the microswitch for > the keyboard on/off is split in half (was held together by the plastic pin > and the screw that held it in place. Quite often these microswitches are standard parts. I've had great success finding new replacements for even quite obscure thigns (like the contact block in a mains swithc used in an HP devivce, or the low-force microswitch used as a track 0 sensor in the TM100). > > The lock itself is corroded. So much so that one of the pins is fused in > place :( so it is out of there. Haev you dismantled the lock fully? Since you're thinking of repinning it, can't you not drill out the corroded pin and clean up the hole? Then get/make a new pin > > The CMOS battery needs to be replaced, luckily it hadn't started to leak and > drip from the pack. I use 4 AA cells in a holder :-). They don't last as long as the original lithium battery, but they're cheap, and a lot easier to find. > > And the switches on the XCELX accelerator are broken and it won't even try > to POST with those broken off. (bodies popped off, and I need to make sure > that none of the metal parts from inside are shorting anything before > applying power Probably best to remove everything from the case and open up the PSU just to be sure. The IBM PSUs were generally held together with 'tamperproof Torx' screws, but gettign tools to fit those is not hard. -tony From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 10 16:50:52 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 14:50:52 -0700 Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9368BC.6000701@jwsss.com> We had CDC drives with similar HDA's which would go bad from time to time. Are you sure it is the HDA bearing and not the main drive motor? The winchesters we had for Fuji had the heads land in a landing zone like the CDC drives did. I never saw a bearing failure (had 2) that didn't clearly take out the media due to chatter or play. You don't give enough to guess at the symptoms here, such as how long it may have run with the bearings defective, were they found to be defective while in operation, or are you doing a restore, and they are damaged / suspect. Hopefully as Tony says, you can find a clean room or make a very clean area. I'm not sure what CDC did to open and repair HDA's. With the heads directly parked on the media, there isn't much room for error getting the thing apart. Moving the voice coil tower with all the heads a slowly and carefully as you will need to will be quite a feat. I think they had jigs and tools to allow that, as well as fixtures to hold the heads apart when assembling them. Not sure about how they pulled them apart when they would dismantle for repair. We did have a few motors go bad, and they were standard enough that a local shop could rebuild the motors, as well as supply the caps for a lot lower cost than CDC. Also CDC used a solid state relay to run the motor, and those we could get thru Grainger cheaper than CDC. The Fujitsu drives would be more of a problem in that area to some degree, since the parts are not that common as to be stocked by local motor referb shops. I hope you are really sure it has to come apart if you had it fail while running, as taking this assembly apart usually gets you a stack of scrap metal. Jim On 10/10/2011 11:26 AM, CRC wrote: > Has anyone attempted to do so or has disassembled the disk enclosure? I would like to know if the heads are parked on or off the disks. > > TIA -> CRC > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 10 17:08:10 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:08:10 -0700 Subject: More classic computer on topic.... In-Reply-To: <20111009214119.C98465@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111009214119.C98465@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01E574AD-51D2-48AB-9690-C2BD455CE03D@zipcon.net> On Oct 9, 2011, at 9:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 9 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> One thing I'm annoyed about is that someone pulled the '287 chip :( oh > > They came stock with an empty socket. > > the accelerator had a 287 in it's adapter socket at some point at least it looks that way. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 17:09:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:09:46 -0700 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E91B570.5503.13CA8B2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 9, 11 02:53:36 pm, Message-ID: <4E930ABA.2257.14FFCA2@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Oct 2011 at 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: > I have seen a jeweller's soldering torch that works by electrolysing > water (using power from the mains) and then brunign the resulting H_2 > and O_2 to probvide the soldering flame, but that violates no laws. > The energy uoi get from the flame comes from the mains electricity > supply. For the mileage thing, just do a web search on "HHO mileage". "HHO" is the "in" term for what is also called "Brown's Gas", which is nothing more than a mixture of electrolysis products. I have a friend who makes custom flutes (draws his own silver tubing, etc.) and uses a water torch. But the thing uses potassium hydroxide (very caustic) to improve ionization and the rig draws about 13A at 240V to produce a fairly small flame. For him, it's probably ideal for items, such as keywork, as the oxyhydrogen flame has less heat (for a comparably-sized flame) and a lower temperature than oxyacetylene, yet is still hot enough to braze with without burning the workpiece. I haven't worked out the cost per BTU, but it could be cheaper. I do some silver-soldering, but it's low-temperature. (1000-1300F), so acetylene-air works just fine. > > They're still out there and just as evangelical about it, but lately > > the Rossi eCAT LENR snake oil has attracted many of the faithful. > > Oh well... A fool and his money are soon parted. It's the waste of good human intellect and effort that bothers me. Witness how many people jumped on Fleischman and Pons' bandwagon. Didn't France sink a considerable sum into a "cold fusion" research site? I suppose that the only people who made real money were the early palladium futures commodity speculators. Most of the claims made since F&P, including Rossi, are undoubtedly due to poor metrology and a basic misunderstanding of metrology techniques. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Oct 10 17:10:42 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:10:42 -0400 Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement Message-ID: > Has anyone attempted to do so or has disassembled the disk enclosure? > I would like to know if the heads are parked on or off the disks. I've taken apart HDA's from crashed Eagles, with no hope of ever putting back together. The heads are parked in the landing zones on the disk. An Eagle is a little more complicated than a "typlcal" drive in that each surface has two heads - one covers the inner half, the other covers the outer half. I don't think this head arrangement is unique to the Eagle but it's not all that common. At least one of the bearings (the bottom one) is in fact out of the HDA isn't it? On the top center of the HDA there's some sort of cover plate and I bet the top bearing is underneath it. Some might count that as "inside the HDA" but I count it as "on the outside and secured by a cover plate". Not that I've ever done a bearing replacement on an HDA quite like this. On removable pack drives, sure (RL01/02, RK05, etc) but obviously the pack was out :-). I would think you could locate a working HDA without a lot of difficulty. From stevensaliterman at comcast.net Tue Oct 4 18:44:36 2011 From: stevensaliterman at comcast.net (Steven Saliterman) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:44:36 -0500 Subject: facit n4000 service manual? Message-ID: <000601cc82ef$946a70a0$bd3f51e0$@comcast.net> Hi Jay, I am restoring an Altair computer and plan to use paper tapes. I have a Facit N4000 and operating manual. I was wondering if you have the service manual? Steve www.tc.umn.edu/~drsteve From ohh at panix.com Wed Oct 5 10:19:50 2011 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 11:19:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thanks (was: Re: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey, Mr. Alderson: Just so's somebody has actually said it out loud, thanks for posting the job description. It's good to know that people who know of paying jobs revolving around restoring classic computer equipment might actually be willing to post them on this mailing list which (usually) revolves around restoring classical computer equipment. I'm sorry the signal-to-noise ratio has grown so noisy, and that a number of people have seen fit to publicly argue over the employer's parameters or express their shock that a company run and paid for by a Microsoft co-founder might (gasp!) want the prospective employee to be capable of using Microsoft communication tools. For what it's worth, I'm sure these people think they're accomplishing something constructive. I suspect people who shout a lot on the telephone also feel it accomplishes something constructive, though their intended message doubtless gets lost in the process. Anyway: thanks! Hopefully this will not discourage you, or others, from posting descriptions of relevant, paying jobs to CCTalk. Hopefully. :/ -O.- From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 19:26:57 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 19:26:57 -0500 Subject: a sad day in computing history....Steve Jobs passed away Message-ID: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/05/us/obit-steve-jobs/?hpt%3DT1&ved=0CBYQqQIwAA&usg=AFQjCNE8fDW8TMAAFotPkGzQCh5HC5sj5Q that is all I have so far... From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 20:02:12 2011 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 21:02:12 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs and Classic Computing Message-ID: Steve Jobs was an early innovator & pioneer of microcomputers who went on to influence how we look at high technology today. An icon has passes on.... From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 20:22:50 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 20:22:50 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I do not see it as being offensive. Define "iphone 5" if you mean "iphone 4s", not sure, I've tried finding any info on it. Yesterday the news report about the release made a mention that he was not there at the event. It is too soon and there is little info released on it, that should change in the coming days... On Wednesday, October 5, 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > This may offend many, but, . . . > did he die before or after the iPhone5 event? > > > His influence will live on. > > > > From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 23:21:35 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 23:21:35 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: References: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: while vague, this article offers some info... http://mashable.com//2011/10/05/steve-jobs-family-statement/ I think that means he passed after the event. I hope he got to see his last piece of work released before he went. On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 8:22 PM, joe lobocki wrote: > I do not see it as being offensive. Define "iphone 5" if you mean "iphone > 4s", not sure, I've tried finding any info on it. Yesterday the news report > about the release made a mention that he was not there at the event. It is > too soon and there is little info released on it, that should change in the > coming days... > > > On Wednesday, October 5, 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > > This may offend many, but, . . . > > did he die before or after the iPhone5 event? > > > > > > His influence will live on. > > > > > > > > > From jonas at otter.se Thu Oct 6 11:13:44 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:13:44 +0200 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage, Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8DD3B8.5080905@otter.se> On 2011-10-05 19:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Think of a rigid requirement of a specific mail program, or other largely > interchangeable tool, as an asshole/not-asshole filter of employERs. > > > My employer (a community college system) uses Outhouse, and more than once > a week IT/helpdesk has to try again to explain phishing, and begging > people to not open attachments. People who pass on urban legends, as > "TRUE", get thanked by their colleagues, debunkers get chastised for > "being mean". Last week was the "cell phone DO NOT CALL". There is a > concerted effort to AVOID compliance with the state mandate of teaching > "information competency". > > Yesterday, we received a> MB email that consisted of a single sentence. > BUT, it was tilted a few degrees, and the signature was a different color. > One of our top administators, to send out that single sentence, had > created a Weird document, printed it out, SCANNED that, and sent it out as > an attachment to an email with a Subject: line of "FYI", and a message > body (other than the attachment), of "Open the attachment." > > BTW, many years ago, they employed substantial additional temporary staff > to do scanning when they changed the OFFICIAL word processor from > WordPervert to Weird. > > They tried to fire one of my colleagues for being a hoarder, and > retrieving working computer hardware from college dumpsters (including an > 11/70, which was no longer in his office). They gave him 2 hours to get > what he could out of his [admittedly JAM-PACKED] office and then > dumpstered everything else that he hadn't stuffed into his car, including > NorthstarS, Sol, and a few more S100 machines. > > > I don't think that I can manage to avoid getting fired [for doing my job] > for another 3.64 semesters. Thursday, I gave copies to a student who > requested them, of the Grand Jury investigation into our administration > and the Accreditation Commissions' report when they placed our > accreditation "on probation". You make it sound as if Dilbert is actually true... That level of incompetence would be really hard to find over here. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Thu Oct 6 11:26:35 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:26:35 +0200 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage, Systems) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8DD6BB.8080603@otter.se> "Business people" love Microsoft because they think Microsoft and > Bill Gates are the same entity, and like to be associated with money and > financial success. These people typically haven't an iota of technical > know-how, and they're NOT the people who should be telling others what > tools to use to do their jobs. That's nonsense. "Business people" love Microsoft because a) they think that if they buy the same as everybody else, there will be no problems exchanging mail, documents etc with other companies, b) they know that they can easily find staff who knows how to use MS products, and c) they assume that if they buy from a large corporation they can always get some reasonable level of support, the products and support will be around for the foreseeable future, and if something really bad happens, they expect they can get help to fix it. They also prefer to get everything from one place since it is easier to speak to one supplier than several, and the products can be expected to interoperate, without several different supplier pointing their fingers at each other when something doesn't work. However, in Europe quite a few government entities and private companies have got fed up with MSs total dominance, and have begun mandating the use of open source tools. The Swedish government's public procurement of software includes both proprietary software and open source software. /Jonas From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 16:07:43 2011 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:07:43 -0600 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> Message-ID: And really, when he did that he was a 20 year old kid. Both men (Jobs and Woz) long since moved on from that incident. In the end it didn't matter, Atari never used their Breakout and Woz and Jobs went on to a much more successful partnership. On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > Just been reported on the radio that Steve Jobs has died (age 56). >> >> ? ? He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. >> > > I don't think there's any call for that sort of comment. I am no fan of > Apple's products or policies, but I am saddendd by the death of somebody > who had ideas and implemented them (and you can't claim that Apple's > products have not been a commercial success). We need more people who are > prepared to 'do things differently' IMHO. > > -tony > > -- Marty From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 00:13:19 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 00:13:19 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> Message-ID: > He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. Does this mean when Bill gates dies, you will hold him accountable for all the people he ripped off and cheated as well? Remember who Bill Gates allegedly stole from? From sylcarm at verizon.net Fri Oct 7 13:47:23 2011 From: sylcarm at verizon.net (Sylvester Carmichael) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 15:47:23 -0300 Subject: Looking for : Sharp PC-1405 In-Reply-To: <01C2C9E0.16C287E0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <8C5CB83C47574E7495590E8038084C4A@SylvesterCarmic> Interested in your Sharp 1421. Could offer US$100.00. Sylvester From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 15:47:03 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318020423.62552.YahooMailClassic@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> my Toshiba has an 18.4" screen. I'm old and my eyes like it! So there! it only weighs 9 lbs. But my weight approaches 300 so what's that? on the Jobs thing, I'm sorry to hear of anyone's passing, but what did the guy really accomplish apart from his marketing? Please, the Atari ST was a better computer then the original Mac. And 40% the cost. The iphone is a cell phone and a palm pilot mashed together. --- On Fri, 10/7/11, Tony Duell wrote: > From: Tony Duell > Subject: Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, October 7, 2011, 3:51 PM > > > > Quite frankly, anything over a 13" laptop in my > opinion is no longer a > > latop, its a fold up desktop computer....? some > of these 17" "laptops" > > are just insane, you might as well be lugging a Compaq > SLT around with you. > > IIRC< the Amstrad PPC machines (which had a tiny LCD > dispaly, about 6" > diagonal) were actually wider than a PDP11 front panel. > Some laptop... > > -tony > From jonas at otter.se Fri Oct 7 17:19:15 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 00:19:15 +0200 Subject: Linguistic debate, was: Re: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8F7AE3.2090404@otter.se> Since this thread has gone completely off at a tangent, how about this: Shouldn't the sentence "They were an HP9866 printer, an HP71 and an HP82165 GPIO unit, and an home-made interface" be "They were an HP9866 printer, an HP71 and an HP82165 GPIO unit, and *a* home-made interface " and similarly "a 'Oxford comma' " should be "*an* 'Oxford comma' " ? (since "HP" is pronounced "aitch-pee" (beginning with a vowel sound) and "home-made" begins with a consonant sound). Seriously though, I agree with Tony that sometimes minute details of punctuation, quoting etc can be extremely significant. I spent four years writing installation instructions for Unix software for Ericsson, and during the review of every document, such details were always taken extremely seriously, since it was intended that the reader of the document should be able to reproduce every command exactly as intended, otherwise the installation would fail, or be done incorrectly. Obviously a Unix command line is very sensitive to dots, spaces, upper/lower case etc. Another aspect which I think is important is that documentation which contains spelling errors, bad grammar, bad translations etc reflects badly on a product which may be excellent otherwise. If you can't be bothered to produce correctly spelt, grammatically correct documentation, what is to say that the product itself is any better? /Jonas On Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:11:03 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > The text 'I used 3 devices at my HPCC demonstration this year. They were > an HP9866 printer, an HP71 and an HP82165 GPIO unit and an home-made > interface' makes little sense. But adding the extra comma 'I used 3 > devices at my HPCC demonstration this year. They were an HP9866 printer, > an HP71 and an HP82165 GPIO unit, and an home-made interface' implies > that the first deivce was the printer, the second device was the HP71 > together with the 82165 interface and the third device was the home-made > interface. > > I beleive doing this is called a 'Oxford comma'. From rcbartel at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 22:37:10 2011 From: rcbartel at yahoo.com (RCBartel) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 20:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Molecular computer, and, KAYPRO 10 available, Bytes, Microcomputing Message-ID: <1318045030.35671.YahooMailNeo@web33902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am interested in the Molecular computer (CP/M).? Rick? 410-903--2759 From rmaxwell at bell.net Sun Oct 9 23:35:33 2011 From: rmaxwell at bell.net (Bob Maxwell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 00:35:33 -0400 Subject: Keeping an old Toshiba printer Message-ID: Perhaps somebody has dealt with a similar issue... I have two venerable Toshiba 24-pin dot matrix printers dating from the mid-1980s, a P1340 and a P341. They are working just fine ? evidently, Toshiba intended these beasts to endure. When I got a new laptop with 64-bit Windows 7 installed, I went through some headaches networking to a Win98 PC that interfaces to the printers, but the data path is working and stable. The problems is that Windows 7 (XP, Vista) hasn?t a clue on how to format for the older printers. I can?t find anyone with a driver that works on the 64-bit Windows 7, and I get absolutely no response when I make enquiries of Toshiba. In fact, as far as I can tell, Toshiba has purged any admission that they once manufactured these beasts from their Websites. Drivers intended for newer Toshiba products don?t produce usable output. I bought my P1340 new for $800 (a significant price for that time and my personal budget), and I am determined to keep using it as long as it works (finding ribbons has not been difficult, indicating that there?s still others working out there). My OSI Superboard, Kaypro 2 and NorthStar Horizon are all perfectly comfortable with these printers, so it is annoying the new stuff is finding it so difficult. Has anyone either (1) made/encountered/adapted a printer driver that would allow Windows 7 to format output for the Toshibas, or (2) found a method of convincing Windows 7 to use printer drivers written for Win98/95/3.1? I really am trying to save myself from having to learn how to write printer drivers for Windows 7... or loading Linux only to find similar issues... Regards, from Bob [rmaxwell at bell.net] From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 15:44:05 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318279445.97174.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 10/9/11, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've got an Ampro LittleBoard sitting on the shelf with > that same > interface.? I suspect that machine also predates the > Mac+, despite the > fanboi revisionist histronics. if you have the earlier true 80186 based one, yes it does. Incidentally is the difference between yours and a version w/o scsi a pal and the 53c80? I have a later version and that's what mine requires. If you have the means to dump the contents of the pal, I for one would be most appreciative. I guess I could try and contact Ampro. It does look like they're producing afro-centric products these days though. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 15:52:40 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replacing aging plastic parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318279960.86936.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> you could try conditioning them w/some sort of oil. Or make that recondition. Perhaps soak them in hottish water frist. --- On Sat, 10/8/11, Matti Nummi wrote: > From: Matti Nummi > Subject: Replacing aging plastic parts > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, October 8, 2011, 1:27 PM > > Hi, > > Has anybody experience and instructions how to replace > aging and breaking plastic parts. > I would prefer replacement with metal parts not to repeat > the problem later. > The problem is in parts like sledges etc. but not in > running mechanics. > > Any tools, methods etc. recommendations are welcome. > Unfortunately my experience is more on the electronics > side. > > I would see the replacement work as a nice hobby but I need > the skills and tools first. > > BR > Matti Nummi > -- > > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 10 17:29:43 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111010152548.N35355@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > An Eagle is a little more complicated than a "typlcal" drive in that > each surface has two heads - one covers the inner half, the other covers > the outer half. I don't think this head arrangement is unique to the > Eagle but it's not all that common. ST225 !! Since the HDA is opaque, it's much less unique than people realize. Generally, the computer "sees" that as two surfaces. If you compile statistics, the inner "surface" has demonstrably less reliability that the outer "surface", but that shows up as "even/odd" heads. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 10 17:40:20 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:40:20 -0700 Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E937454.4040204@jwsss.com> The structure of the units I am referring to is that there was a bearing structure on the bottom carrier plate of aluminum. maybe two bearings. The top was a clear-ish plastic cover. The ones we had in the 1980 time frame were like this anyway. They were not metal cover on metal carrier plate, with the substance to have a bearing on the top and the bottom of the axis. Such probably could be repaired like a differential w/o popping the seal if it were designed right, though I'm no expert on that. Jim On 10/10/2011 3:10 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Has anyone attempted to do so or has disassembled the disk enclosure? >> I would like to know if the heads are parked on or off the disks. > I've taken apart HDA's from crashed Eagles, with no hope of ever putting back together. > > The heads are parked in the landing zones on the disk. > > An Eagle is a little more complicated than a "typlcal" drive in that each surface has two heads - one covers the inner half, the other covers the outer half. I don't think this head arrangement is unique to the Eagle but it's not all that common. > > At least one of the bearings (the bottom one) is in fact out of the HDA isn't it? On the top center of the HDA there's some sort of cover plate and I bet the top bearing is underneath it. Some might count that as "inside the HDA" but I count it as "on the outside and secured by a cover plate". > > Not that I've ever done a bearing replacement on an HDA quite like this. On removable pack drives, sure (RL01/02, RK05, etc) but obviously the pack was out :-). > > I would think you could locate a working HDA without a lot of difficulty. > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 10 17:44:57 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:44:57 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111005172028.Q48783@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E937569.9090107@jwsss.com> On 10/5/2011 5:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > This may offend many, but, . . . > did he die before or after the iPhone5 event? > > > His influence will live on. A friend suggested that perhaps the 5 part comes from announcing IOS5 but the phone announced was the iPhone4gs and sprint offering of such. I don't pay attention to such, and plan to only use android based, as it has the highest chance of being a device I can use. and actually program. (many apologies for such far off the charter comment). Jim From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Oct 10 17:52:09 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:52:09 -0400 Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement Message-ID: >> An Eagle is a little more complicated than a "typlcal" drive in that >> each surface has two heads - one covers the inner half, the other covers >> the outer half. I don't think this head arrangement is unique to the >> Eagle but it's not all that common. > ST225 !! > Since the HDA is opaque, it's much less unique than people realize. > Generally, the computer "sees" that as two surfaces. ST-225 = 2 platters, 4 heads, one head per surface. ?? Fuji Eagle = 6 platters, 20 heads, two data heads per non-outer surface, plus one servo head on an outer surface. I think the confusion may be "outer half of a surface" vs an "outer surface". Tim. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 10 17:56:10 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:56:10 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/10/11 4:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ... >> X11 just does not satisfy me as a way to define a >> high-information-content user interface. It's certainly capable of >> delivering a high-information-content user interface but it doesn't >> define it. > > I agree with the latter, but for the former, it does satisfy me. (that's > not to say that I think it should satisfy you) There's really nothing > that can be done on a graphics display that X cannot do in one way or > another, in an almost entirely device- and architecture-independent way. > It's goal is not to "define" user interfaces, but to provide a mechanism > for creating them. That's too low level for most stuff, as the web has all but proven. > >> The web by itself isn't too fancy but couple with Javascript, AJAX, >> SVG and other high-information-value media of interchange, and boy is >> it fun to work in! With just a little care, apps scale up enormously >> and deploy with so little effort on my part. > > Yes, some of the stuff they're abusing the protocols and bandwidth to do > are pretty impressive. Using them, however, TO ME, feels like riding a > bike with square wheels. X is a pretty "heavy" protocol in terms of > bandwidth utilization, but it's positively miserly when compared to XML > or JSON! Errr... that's not quite as obvious as you imply. :) The web offers massive opportunities for compression, that X11, RDP, VNC, etc, can't match, in having a client side processing environment and complete flexibility in data formats... --T > >> You might note I left out many common web standards as being high >> information value. > > Noted and agreed! > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 10 17:59:19 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:59:19 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9378C7.40909@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/10/11 4:01 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > Let's see - the level creation tools for the first incarnation of id's Doom > were built on a NeXT, as was Berners-Lee first web server and browser. The > interface for Mathematica was designed on NeXT as well. Did Theo Gray's definitive Mac front-end pre- or post-date Mathematica on NeXT? The Mac version certainly out-sold it. > Modern day MacOS X > is heavily influenced by NeXTStep and it's Objective-C development > environment, as is iOS. More than "influenced" - OS X and iOS, a lot of the widgets, utilities, file formats, protocols and supporting applications, derive directly from that code. --Toby > WebObjects was a fairly popular application > framework in the late 90's and early 2000's - I know of a few major websites > that used to run it. > > I'd say NeXT was relatively successful, in that it was used to create > popular products and had a direct impact on later products. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 10 18:13:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 19:13:16 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <1318020423.62552.YahooMailClassic@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318020423.62552.YahooMailClassic@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E937C0C.2080601@neurotica.com> On 10/07/2011 04:47 PM, Chris M wrote: > The iphone is a cell phone and a palm pilot mashed together. Oh PLEASE. PalmOS was a pile of crap, one of the worst UI/OS combinations I've ever seen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 10 18:16:08 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:16:08 -0700 Subject: Layers and Layers of Abstraction (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E9348F1.5030006@arachelian.com> References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> <4E9348F1.5030006@arachelian.com> Message-ID: From: Ray Arachelian Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:35 PM On 10/10/2011 02:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Everything is going that way. It is a huge, bloated, >> bandwidth-wasting, cycle-wasting mess. > I imagine that's what the operating system users said about using a > compiler instead of coding in assembler. Umm, compilers came long before anything that could reasonably be called an operating system. My first computer language was FORTRAN IV, on an IBM 1401. Very small monitor that was part of the FORTRAN compiler separated jobs from each other, running the compiled code for one until EOJ, then beginning the next compile-and-execute. > I imagine that's what the static language guys said about the dynamic > languages. Yeah, you nailed that one...expect that the verb is "say". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spc at conman.org Mon Oct 10 18:23:44 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 19:23:44 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> Message-ID: <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great joe lobocki once stated: > > He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. > > Does this mean when Bill gates dies, you will hold him accountable for all > the people he ripped off and cheated as well? Remember who Bill Gates > allegedly stole from? Monte Davidoff? Paul Allen? Tim Paterson? Seattle Computer Product? -spc (Steve Jobs?) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 10 18:32:09 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 19:32:09 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <1318279445.97174.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318279445.97174.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E938079.4030903@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/10/11 4:44 PM, Chris M wrote: > > > --- On Sun, 10/9/11, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> I've got an Ampro LittleBoard sitting on the shelf with >> that same >> interface. I suspect that machine also predates the >> Mac+, despite the >> fanboi revisionist histronics. You've misunderstood my point. It wasn't to say that the Mac Plus was the first SCSI hardware in existence. It was that it was a standard item on the motherboard in advance of the bulk of the PC market. --Toby > > if you have the earlier true 80186 based one, yes it does. > > Incidentally is the difference between yours and a version w/o scsi a pal and the 53c80? I have a later version and that's what mine requires. If you have the means to dump the contents of the pal, I for one would be most appreciative. > I guess I could try and contact Ampro. It does look like they're producing afro-centric products these days though. > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 10 18:34:43 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:34:43 -0500 Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement In-Reply-To: <20111010152548.N35355@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20111010152548.N35355@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:29:43 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement > > On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > An Eagle is a little more complicated than a "typlcal" drive in that > > each surface has two heads - one covers the inner half, the other covers > > the outer half. I don't think this head arrangement is unique to the > > Eagle but it's not all that common. > > ST225 !! > > Since the HDA is opaque, it's much less unique than people realize. > > Generally, the computer "sees" that as two surfaces. > If you compile statistics, the inner "surface" has demonstrably less > reliability that the outer "surface", but that shows up as "even/odd" > heads. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 18:43:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:43:11 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara>, , Message-ID: <4E93209F.13497.1A58462@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2011 at 15:07, Martin Goldberg wrote: > And really, when he did that he was a 20 year old kid. Both men (Jobs > and Woz) long since moved on from that incident. To hear the press, he was the greatest human since Leonardo da Vinci or Thomas Edison. In fact, I saw a polical cartoon to that effect. Oh, and he founded Apple all by himself and developed the Apple II the same way. Reminds me of the lionizing going on when Nixon shed the mortal coil. --Chuck P.S. I remember when tooling through northeast Indiana, there's a working steam museum in Hesston, just outside of which, there's a great place to buy apples, located on Wozniak Rd. No kidding. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 10 19:02:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 20:02:47 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 06:56 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> X11 just does not satisfy me as a way to define a >>> high-information-content user interface. It's certainly capable of >>> delivering a high-information-content user interface but it doesn't >>> define it. >> >> I agree with the latter, but for the former, it does satisfy me. (that's >> not to say that I think it should satisfy you) There's really nothing >> that can be done on a graphics display that X cannot do in one way or >> another, in an almost entirely device- and architecture-independent way. >> It's goal is not to "define" user interfaces, but to provide a mechanism >> for creating them. > > That's too low level for most stuff, as the web has all but proven. I don't even know where to begin with this. It's a total apples vs. oranges comparison. "Proven"? How, exactly? "The web" isn't a replacement for a windowing system any more than Windows is a replacement for an oscilloscope. You're comparing apples and oranges, and while I don't know you very well, I damn well know you know THAT. In fact, I've concluded that you're just bored and know I won't let completely stupid and/or patently false statements just float by. Further, that low-level "mechanism, not policy" architecture of X is one of its big points of existence. An X display can look and act like ANYTHING. There are too many respectable people on this list who DON'T know much about this stuff to play with the possibility of misleading them here. X11 was never designed to be used from one continent to another, and the WWW was never designed to be the exclusive way that humans interact with computers. That whole "wasn't designed for it" is precisely why neither of them work very well in that capacity. >>> The web by itself isn't too fancy but couple with Javascript, AJAX, >>> SVG and other high-information-value media of interchange, and boy is >>> it fun to work in! With just a little care, apps scale up enormously >>> and deploy with so little effort on my part. >> >> Yes, some of the stuff they're abusing the protocols and bandwidth to do >> are pretty impressive. Using them, however, TO ME, feels like riding a >> bike with square wheels. X is a pretty "heavy" protocol in terms of >> bandwidth utilization, but it's positively miserly when compared to XML >> or JSON! > > Errr... that's not quite as obvious as you imply. :) > > The web offers massive opportunities for compression, that X11, RDP, > VNC, etc, can't match, in having a client side processing environment > and complete flexibility in data formats... So your logic is that it's ok if it's bloated and inefficient, because we can just compress it? That sounds like the Lispers' arguments that the performance problems associated with Lisp have been "solved" because computers are faster now. And it's too bad those "opportunities" for compression aren't being taken advantage of, save for the web servers with the Apache compression option enabled. And there are, what, maybe six of those? The fact is, that stuff CAN be compressed, since it's all fat inefficient text, but it almost never IS compressed on the wire. Next...will JSON and AJAX (etc, whatever the kids come up with next week) really deal with compressed objects, or is this argument dependent upon bandwidth providers handling that compression for you, by having to build compression support into all of the end-user "routers" that are terminating lines everywhere? At the server/browser level, then? (which is probably the only practical place to do it, now that I've typed that) Gads, man. I'm not talking about using X11 to somehow "replace" the friggin' WWW. I'm talking about using it from DOWNSTAIRS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 10 19:11:01 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 17:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E93209F.13497.1A58462@cclist.sydex.com> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara>, , <4E93209F.13497.1A58462@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111010171024.L35355@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Reminds me of the lionizing going on when Nixon shed the mortal coil. THAT warranted 18.5 minutes of silence. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 10 19:51:50 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 20:51:50 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/10/11 8:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/10/2011 06:56 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> X11 just does not satisfy me as a way to define a >>>> high-information-content user interface. It's certainly capable of >>>> delivering a high-information-content user interface but it doesn't >>>> define it. >>> >>> I agree with the latter, but for the former, it does satisfy me. (that's >>> not to say that I think it should satisfy you) There's really nothing >>> that can be done on a graphics display that X cannot do in one way or >>> another, in an almost entirely device- and architecture-independent way. >>> It's goal is not to "define" user interfaces, but to provide a mechanism >>> for creating them. >> >> That's too low level for most stuff, as the web has all but proven. > > I don't even know where to begin with this. It's a total apples vs. > oranges comparison. > > "Proven"? How, exactly? "The web" isn't a replacement for a windowing > system any more than Windows is a replacement for an oscilloscope. > You're comparing apples and oranges, and while I don't know you very > well, I damn well know you know THAT. In fact, I've concluded that > you're just bored and know I won't let completely stupid and/or patently > false statements just float by. > > Further, that low-level "mechanism, not policy" architecture of X is one > of its big points of existence. An X display can look and act like > ANYTHING. And that's the problem. For most uses, the detailed design of widgets doesn't matter. You just want a CHECKBOX here, a TEXT field here, and a SUBMIT button there. Good enough for Amazon, at least, which is a non-trivial UI. Plenty of other examples too. > > There are too many respectable people on this list who DON'T know much > about this stuff to play with the possibility of misleading them here. > > X11 was never designed to be used from one continent to another, and the > WWW was never designed to be the exclusive way that humans interact with > computers. That whole "wasn't designed for it" is precisely why neither > of them work very well in that capacity. Remote computing on a intranet is interesting, less wasteful than big desktops, but it hasn't exactly thrived as a model. For it to do so, would resuscitate the idea of a "workgroup" or "departmental" server with enough grunt to virtualise desktop apps. Until the www shows itself too embarrassingly incapable of this, you are going to be stuck with "cloud" app providers like Google. > >>>> The web by itself isn't too fancy but couple with Javascript, AJAX, >>>> SVG and other high-information-value media of interchange, and boy is >>>> it fun to work in! With just a little care, apps scale up enormously >>>> and deploy with so little effort on my part. >>> >>> Yes, some of the stuff they're abusing the protocols and bandwidth to do >>> are pretty impressive. Using them, however, TO ME, feels like riding a >>> bike with square wheels. X is a pretty "heavy" protocol in terms of >>> bandwidth utilization, but it's positively miserly when compared to XML >>> or JSON! >> >> Errr... that's not quite as obvious as you imply. :) >> >> The web offers massive opportunities for compression, that X11, RDP, >> VNC, etc, can't match, in having a client side processing environment >> and complete flexibility in data formats... > > So your logic is that it's ok if it's bloated and inefficient, because > we can just compress it? That sounds like the Lispers' arguments that > the performance problems associated with Lisp have been "solved" because > computers are faster now. (Lisp doesn't have any performance problem, but that's another thread...) No, I am saying that the web is architecturally efficient, at least potentially, because it allows complete flexibility in protocol and front-end decoding. The protocol you like - doesn't. > > And it's too bad those "opportunities" for compression aren't being > taken advantage of, save for the web servers with the Apache compression > option enabled. And there are, what, maybe six of those? The fact is, > that stuff CAN be compressed, since it's all fat inefficient text, but > it almost never IS compressed on the wire. I'm not talking about gzip. I'm talking about compression *in general* which means designing your vocabulary and operations to suit the domain in question. X11 cannot do this, it's at least one level removed from this flexibility - but systems like NeWS *can* too (at least to my recollection), and they made X11 look crummy at the time. > > Next...will JSON and AJAX (etc, whatever the kids come up with next > week) really deal with compressed objects, or is this argument dependent > upon bandwidth providers handling that compression for you, by having to > build compression support into all of the end-user "routers" that are > terminating lines everywhere? At the server/browser level, then? (which > is probably the only practical place to do it, now that I've typed that) JSON is a compact format but not the only one possible. > > Gads, man. I'm not talking about using X11 to somehow "replace" the > friggin' WWW. I'm talking about using it from DOWNSTAIRS. Wifi sucks. :) --Toby > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 10 19:52:36 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 20:52:36 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/10/11 7:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great joe lobocki once stated: >>> He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. >> >> Does this mean when Bill gates dies, you will hold him accountable for all >> the people he ripped off and cheated as well? Remember who Bill Gates >> allegedly stole from? > > Monte Davidoff? Paul Allen? Tim Paterson? Seattle Computer Product? > Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal computer. --Toby > -spc (Steve Jobs?) > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 10 20:13:07 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:13:07 -0700 Subject: Layers and Layers of Abstraction (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> <4E9348F1.5030006@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E939823.9070903@jwsss.com> On 10/10/2011 4:16 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Ray Arachelian > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:35 PM > > On 10/10/2011 02:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> Everything is going that way. It is a huge, bloated, >>> bandwidth-wasting, cycle-wasting mess. >> I imagine that's what the operating system users said about using a >> compiler instead of coding in assembler. > Umm, compilers came long before anything that could reasonably be called > an operating system. > > My first computer language was FORTRAN IV, on an IBM 1401. Very small > monitor that was part of the FORTRAN compiler separated jobs from each > other, running the compiled code for one until EOJ, then beginning the > next compile-and-execute. > 1620 card deck in, punched program out (or deposit in memory sometimes). 1130 card deck in, punched out program (I never used a 1130, but was told it would do this standalone) Univac III had a tape header that was on each tape, and the programs rewound and reread the "os" from each, more of a set of parameters. Not a lot in memory. I don't even have any notes on what languages one ran on the U3 even though I have one. >> I imagine that's what the static language guys said about the dynamic >> languages. > Yeah, you nailed that one...expect that the verb is "say". > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 10 20:13:28 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 18:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Oct 10, 11 08:51:50 pm" Message-ID: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> > > Further, that low-level "mechanism, not policy" architecture of X is one > > of its big points of existence. An X display can look and act like > > ANYTHING. > > And that's the problem. For most uses, the detailed design of widgets > doesn't matter. You just want a CHECKBOX here, a TEXT field here, and a > SUBMIT button there. Good enough for Amazon, at least, which is a > non-trivial UI. Plenty of other examples too. Actually, I'd argue that the proliferation of pixel-precise layout strategies like CSS2/3 proves the opposite, that people want low-level control over layout and design in an interface. Otherwise, if we wanted a purely utilitarian way of accessing resources and services over a network, we'd be using Gopher++. Not that I'd mind that. :) > Remote computing on a intranet is interesting, less wasteful than big > desktops, but it hasn't exactly thrived as a model. For it to do so, > would resuscitate the idea of a "workgroup" or "departmental" server > with enough grunt to virtualise desktop apps. I don't know where you work, but in the major hospitals I work for as a physician, I'm connecting via Citrix to a remote server where I enter my charting. The dummy terminal is back. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Greek tailor shop: "Euripedes?" "Yes -- Eumenides?" ------------------------ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 20:45:16 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:45:16 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I'd say NeXT was relatively successful, in that it was used to create > popular products and had a direct impact on later products. So NeXT was a success like STRETCH or F S. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 21:14:29 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 19:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/10/11, William Donzelli wrote: > > I'd say NeXT was relatively > successful, in that it was used to create > > popular products and had a direct impact on later > products. > > So NeXT was a success like STRETCH or F S. It at least had some good ideas. Heck, I'm using WindowMaker right now... and have used it for something like ten years. I don't know if that makes it a *good* environment, but it at least makes it pretty darn usable. Of course, my second favorite is TWM, so perhaps I'm a poor data point. (You KDE users can stop laughing now.) -Ian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 10 22:30:59 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 20:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > I'm not talking about gzip. I'm talking about compression *in general* which > means designing your vocabulary and operations to suit the domain in > question. X11 cannot do this, it's at least one level removed from this > flexibility - but systems like NeWS *can* too (at least to my recollection), > and they made X11 look crummy at the time. That reminds me of something... Would it be practical to bring back something like NeWS and Display Postscript? Could it even be done? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 11 02:48:58 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:48:58 +0100 Subject: Running 110V PDP-11 in a 220V world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E93F4EA.702@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/10/2011 12:52, Tobias Russell wrote: > I've just got hold of a pair of PDP-11/35s that have 110V power supplies. > What is the collectives view on the best way of running these in the UK? > > Is it safe to use a step down transformer (one of these for example: > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3-KVA-SITE-TRANSFORMER-110-VOLT-110V-UK-SUPPLY-3-3KVA-/400198971898?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5d2db7b1fa) > or can I change the setup of the PSU to work from 220V? It's safe, but not very efficient, and there a few other considerations. First, you need to realise that a lot of those big yellow site transformers are not rated for continuous use at the load they claim. They're intended to run power tools which by their nature are used intermittently. I don't know about that particular one, but most need derated by 50%-75% for continuous operation. Secondly, they produce 55-0-55VAC, ie centre-tapped to ground. Probably not an issue, but you should be aware of it. Lastly, although transformers can be very efficient, no transformer is 100% efficient (80%-90% is more typical). The 11/35 (ditto the 11/40, like mine) uses an H742 supply to drive the power bricks. It has a terminal strip inside that you can easily jumper for either 110V or 230V, so there's no reason not to just change it. Well, no reason except the damned thing is VERY heavy and therfoe awkward to handle, but you already know that :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 08:02:37 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:02:37 -0400 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/10/11 9:13 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Further, that low-level "mechanism, not policy" architecture of X is one >>> of its big points of existence. An X display can look and act like >>> ANYTHING. >> >> And that's the problem. For most uses, the detailed design of widgets >> doesn't matter. You just want a CHECKBOX here, a TEXT field here, and a >> SUBMIT button there. Good enough for Amazon, at least, which is a >> non-trivial UI. Plenty of other examples too. > > Actually, I'd argue that the proliferation of pixel-precise layout strategies > like CSS2/3 proves the opposite, that people want low-level control over > layout and design in an interface. Otherwise, if we wanted a purely > utilitarian way of accessing resources and services over a network, we'd > be using Gopher++. Not that I'd mind that. :) CSS was always designed to be a separate component which can be omitted, so you can choose to micromanage or not. And you can render HTML content to a console if you want. > >> Remote computing on a intranet is interesting, less wasteful than big >> desktops, but it hasn't exactly thrived as a model. For it to do so, >> would resuscitate the idea of a "workgroup" or "departmental" server >> with enough grunt to virtualise desktop apps. > > I don't know where you work, but in the major hospitals I work for as a > physician, I'm connecting via Citrix to a remote server where I enter my > charting. The dummy terminal is back. > Yes, some places it never left, or did come back, to some extent. But I don't see it sweeping in as a dominant model - ignoring the web, of course. Smaller clients such as netbooks, tablets, smart phones arguably make the web look more of a remote computing service. Now we have web browsers where the heavy lifting is done remotely and pushed to a thin client (Opera Mini, Amazon Silk), and work is also being done on streaming video for compute-heavy game graphics to devices which are too small to render it realtime themselves. That could end up being a popular model, even if it sounds odd at first, being such a reversal of the "buy the biggest PC and graphics card you can" model. None of the long haul uses X11... Sorry Dave. --Toby From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 08:09:12 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 06:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E93209F.13497.1A58462@cclist.sydex.com> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara>, , <4E93209F.13497.1A58462@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > P.S. I remember when tooling through northeast Indiana, there's a > working steam museum in Hesston, just outside of which, there's a > great place to buy apples, located on Wozniak Rd. No kidding. I wonder how many times a year they have to replace those road signs. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 08:14:55 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 06:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > On 10/10/11 7:23 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> It was thus said that the Great joe lobocki once stated: >>>> He cheated Woz. One less SOB in the world. >>> >>> Does this mean when Bill gates dies, you will hold him accountable for all >>> the people he ripped off and cheated as well? Remember who Bill Gates >>> allegedly stole from? >> >> Monte Davidoff? Paul Allen? Tim Paterson? Seattle Computer Product? >> > > Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal computer. > Prove it. Seriously. I want to see concrete, incontravertible(sp?) evidence that Bill Gates steals from almost everyone who uses a personal computer. You've stated something that you apparently think is a fact. Put up or shut up. FYI, go watch that "1984" commercial that Apple is so famous for. Every time you hear "IBM", say "Apple". It fits really well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From doc at vaxen.net Tue Oct 11 08:47:18 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:47:18 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9448E6.9060203@vaxen.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal computer. >> > Prove it. Seriously. I want to see concrete, incontravertible(sp?) > evidence that Bill Gates steals from almost everyone who uses a personal > computer. > > You've stated something that you apparently think is a fact. Put up or > shut up. Isn't there some corollary to Godwin's Law here? Seriously, this thread is really, truly, totally Done. Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 11 09:06:16 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:06:16 -0500 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> References: <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201110111412.p9BECfoI085207@billy.ezwind.net> At 08:13 PM 10/10/2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I don't know where you work, but in the major hospitals I work for as a >physician, I'm connecting via Citrix to a remote server where I enter my >charting. The dummy terminal is back. And I bet a doughnut that "remote server" is a virtual appliance, not a box to itself. - John From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 11 09:34:43 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:34:43 -0700 Subject: hard sector diskettes... In-Reply-To: References: , , <9567D1CB1EFC4796BB862E9D1CF61941@dell8300>, <4E8E1F68.7060304@neurotica.com>, <42A47EC549BE4764804C703F1D052663@dell8300>, <4E8E2A53.5000205@neurotica.com>, <4E8E8F60.1020909@mail.msu.edu>, <4E8EDD9D.6020307@arachelian.com>, <4E8F2FED.2050507@mail.msu.edu>, <4E8F947C.1060004@telegraphics.com.au>, <4E8FA32B.6030306@mail.msu.edu>, <4E8FA6D6.2000301@telegraphics.com.au>, <4E8FAE8D.9030703@atarimuseum.com>, , <0B0D4BF4-F01F-451E-A214-6C50B6573364@zipcon.net>, , , Message-ID: Oops, I meant 16 hole not 15 hole. Actually with index it is 17 but whos counting. Dwight > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > > > > Hi > Of course, you can always by a punch from me and > make your own well aligned 10 hole disk from spare > 360K disk ( doube density ). I still has a few left from > the build. > I also have a number of 15 hole punches as well > for those that might want one. > You don't even need to remove the disk from > the envelope. > I pass these on at cost. > Dwight > > > > Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 12:56:59 -0700 > > From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: hard sector diskettes... > > > > On Fri, 7 Oct 2011, Geoff Reed wrote: > > > > > i am now on the hunt for 10 sector disks for a northstar horizon. a few > > > years back I purchased a bunch and they were stolen... I thought that my > > > northstar had been stolen, but *happy dance* in the process of moving > > > from one storage unit to another, what did I find... my horizon :) no > > > media for it remains :( and the manuals are gone, don't remember if the > > > thief that broke into my storage P*ssed on them or is they were taken at > > > the time also. > > > > > > no sign of my morrow md3 or dec-rainbow :( did find a microvax 3100 and > > > a 'HP' apollo 700 workstation. > > > > I find hard-sectored floppies from time to time in my storage unit. I'll > > make sure I look specifically for them next time I'm in there. > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 11 09:27:17 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:27:17 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <4E93209F.13497.1A58462@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110111444.p9BEiZ3c086742@billy.ezwind.net> At 08:09 AM 10/11/2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>P.S. I remember when tooling through northeast Indiana, there's a >>working steam museum in Hesston, just outside of which, there's a >>great place to buy apples, located on Wozniak Rd. No kidding. > >I wonder how many times a year they have to replace those road signs. :) There's also one in Athens, WI. http://g.co/maps/tn47y It's not an uncommon name. - John From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 11 09:54:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:54:24 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9458A0.5030301@brouhaha.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > FYI, go watch that "1984" commercial that Apple is so famous for. > Every time you hear "IBM", say "Apple". It fits really well. OK, I just did that. I tried to make the substitution you suggested, but the ad mentioned "IBM" exactly *zero* times. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 10:01:53 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9458A0.5030301@brouhaha.com> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9458A0.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> FYI, go watch that "1984" commercial that Apple is so famous for. >> Every time you hear "IBM", say "Apple". It fits really well. > > OK, I just did that. I tried to make the substitution you suggested, but the > ad mentioned "IBM" exactly *zero* times. *facepalms* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 11 10:18:09 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:18:09 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9458A0.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E945E31.5000700@bitsavers.org> On 10/11/11 8:01 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> FYI, go watch that "1984" commercial that Apple is so famous for. >>> Every time you hear "IBM", say "Apple". It fits really well. >> >> OK, I just did that. I tried to make the substitution you suggested, but the ad mentioned "IBM" exactly *zero* times. > > *facepalms* > And since we're in the mood for spreading disinformation, there is this bit of BS floating around: Q. A vistor told me that the speech given by the giant head in the Macintosh 1984 superbowl commerical was actually excerpted from a speech given by an an IBM executive. Who was the exectutive, what was the topic, any other details? http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/1984-good-it-gets-125608 In the original board, there was no voiceover. But, Richard O'Neill, the agency?s executive producer, called me from London where they were casting and asked if I could bang out something for Big Brother to say for casting purposes. I had lunch that day with my brother, David, who is an international lawyer and Sinophile. We kicked around phrases from Mussolini to Mao, and by the time I got back to work, Big Brother?s speech just wrote itself. Ridley liked it so much that it wound up in the finished spot. It did hold everything together. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 11 10:37:03 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:37:03 -0700 Subject: 1984 ad (was re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E945E31.5000700@bitsavers.org> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9458A0.5030301@brouhaha.com> <4E945E31.5000700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E94629F.5010201@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote about the 1984 ad: > http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/1984-good-it-gets-125608 This quote from the article was especially interesting: I continued working on Apple until 1994, when it became clear that there wasn?t a single person left at the company who understood or appreciated the Apple brand. IBM was more interested in being Apple than Apple was, and I found a better audience in Armonk than I did in Cupertino. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 11 10:48:45 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110111412.p9BECfoI085207@billy.ezwind.net> from John Foust at "Oct 11, 11 09:06:16 am" Message-ID: <201110111548.p9BFmkwl011772@floodgap.com> > > I don't know where you work, but in the major hospitals I work for as a > > physician, I'm connecting via Citrix to a remote server where I enter my > > charting. The dummy terminal is back. > > And I bet a doughnut that "remote server" is a virtual appliance, > not a box to itself. No bet, because I am pretty sure that's exactly what it is :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A zebra cannot change its spots. -- Al Gore -------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 11:03:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:03:35 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110111444.p9BEiZ3c086742@billy.ezwind.net> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara>, , <201110111444.p9BEiZ3c086742@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E940667.21042.8D8A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2011 at 9:27, John Foust wrote: > There's also one in Athens, WI. http://g.co/maps/tn47y > > It's not an uncommon name. But you don't get it--there's a large structure on Wozniak Rd. that sells apples of all sorts, particularly the heirloom variety. And that's the bit that struck me. Having grown up in northwest Indiana, the name itself was nothing special, only the juxtaposition of a large apple seller on Wozniak Rd. I suspect it was there long before Steve was a glimmer in his daddy's eye. --Chuck From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 12:10:06 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:10:06 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Prove it. Seriously. I want to see concrete, incontravertible(sp?) > evidence that Bill Gates steals from almost everyone who uses a personal > computer. > http://www.webcitation.org/query?id=1298665666970544 Section III - Heading H. Old, but relevant. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Oct 11 12:21:42 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:21:42 -0400 Subject: 1984 ad (was re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eric writes: >Al Kossow wrote about the 1984 ad: > > http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/1984-good-it-gets-125608 > This quote from the article was especially interesting: > I continued working on Apple until 1994, when it became > clear that there wasn?t a single person left at the company > who understood or appreciated the Apple brand. IBM was > more interested in being Apple than Apple was, and I found a > better audience in Armonk than I did in Cupertino. I certainly never was an Apple employee unlike others here. It's interesting that Apple was away from Jobs from 1985 till 1996 and how this overlaps some of the dates others write, or I have implied in the past. The 1985 to 1996 period certainly had a lot of solid incremental advances in the Mac. The PowerBook and System 7 certainly blew away anything available on a PC-clone at the time. But at the same time there were NeXT's popping up in offices around me too.... :-) Tim. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 12:40:42 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> >> Prove it. Seriously. I want to see concrete, incontravertible(sp?) >> evidence that Bill Gates steals from almost everyone who uses a personal >> computer. >> > > http://www.webcitation.org/query?id=1298665666970544 > > Section III - Heading H. > > Old, but relevant. > That's really interesting, thanks. While they did (and likely still do!) overcharge for the OS as a part of being a monopolist (I personally wish they'd been broken up...), it doesn't really address the assertion that Gates is actually *stealing* from people. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 12:49:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> > > Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal computer. I think that he owes Gary Kildall an apology. On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > FYI, go watch that "1984" commercial that Apple is so famous for. Every > time you hear "IBM", say "Apple". It fits really well. I like the Futurama take on it: "HEY! We were watching that!" From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 11 12:52:30 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:52:30 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> , Message-ID: You're relying on the ruling of a judge who was found to be prejudiced in the case and removed? And "steal[ing]" is a pretty harsh word to use in relation to the pricing policy of a product you were not compelled to buy. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason McBrien [jbmcb1 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Steve Jobs -2011 On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Prove it. Seriously. I want to see concrete, incontravertible(sp?) > evidence that Bill Gates steals from almost everyone who uses a personal > computer. > http://www.webcitation.org/query?id=1298665666970544 Section III - Heading H. Old, but relevant. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 12:58:43 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E940667.21042.8D8A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara>, , <201110111444.p9BEiZ3c086742@billy.ezwind.net> <4E940667.21042.8D8A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111011105803.S45605@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But you don't get it--there's a large structure on Wozniak Rd. that > sells apples of all sorts, particularly the heirloom variety. And > that's the bit that struck me. > Having grown up in northwest Indiana, the name itself was nothing > special, only the juxtaposition of a large apple seller on Wozniak > Rd. I suspect it was there long before Steve was a glimmer in his > daddy's eye. Have the lawyers written to them about their "Apple Store"? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 13:03:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:03:02 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> , Message-ID: <4E9484D6.2060302@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 01:52 PM, Ian King wrote: > You're relying on the ruling of a judge who was found to be prejudiced in the case and removed? And "steal[ing]" is a pretty harsh word to use in relation to the pricing policy of a product you were not compelled to buy. -- Ian Many people are compelled to buy it...by clueless management types. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 13:16:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:16:48 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E948810.8030102@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 08:51 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Further, that low-level "mechanism, not policy" architecture of X is one >> of its big points of existence. An X display can look and act like >> ANYTHING. > > And that's the problem. For most uses, the detailed design of widgets > doesn't matter. You just want a CHECKBOX here, a TEXT field here, and a > SUBMIT button there. Good enough for Amazon, at least, which is a > non-trivial UI. Plenty of other examples too. Of course. But that's a website. We're talking about windowing systems and local (or "slightly remote") apps. Further, toolkits that sit ON TOP OF X give you all that functionality. They starte with Xt, went through Motif, going all the way up nowadays to gtk. CHECKBOX here, TEXT field there, and a SUBMIT button there...except that it's actually fast, and looks a hell of a lot better. > Until the www shows itself too embarrassingly incapable of this, you are > going to be stuck with "cloud" app providers like Google. *I* am? No, I'm not. I use OpenOffice (erm, "LibreOffice", thank you Oracle) for stuff like that. Anyone who embraces the idea of storing business-proprietary documents on someone else's network, especially when they happen to be experts in large-scale data mining, needs to have their head examined. Besides, such "cloud apps" don't seem to have much market penetration. I've had precisely one client ask about them, and when I explained how they work (the whole "hand your documents to a search engine company" angle), his response was something like "Oh wow...FUCK THAT!" >> So your logic is that it's ok if it's bloated and inefficient, because >> we can just compress it? That sounds like the Lispers' arguments that >> the performance problems associated with Lisp have been "solved" because >> computers are faster now. > > (Lisp doesn't have any performance problem, but that's another thread...) You haven't done much Lisp, have you. ;) > No, I am saying that the web is architecturally efficient, at least > potentially, because it allows complete flexibility in protocol and > front-end decoding. The protocol you like - doesn't. Ha! That's like saying IDE is better than SCSI because IDE doesn't require those pesky terminators and SCSI does. "The web" allows that flexibility because, after a few lines of headers are sent, it's just a raw TCP connection! > I'm not talking about gzip. I'm talking about compression *in general* > which means designing your vocabulary and operations to suit the domain > in question. X11 cannot do this, it's at least one level removed from > this flexibility - but systems like NeWS *can* too (at least to my > recollection), and they made X11 look crummy at the time. Ok, I understand your point now. On the point you weren't trying to make, one thing I really liked was the Cisco compression PAM, but sadly almost nobody bought it. There were certainly windowing systems that had some technical advantages over X11, but X11 won. It's ironic that the big negative about X11 was always its bandwidth requirements, but web-based UIs' bandwidth requirements are orders of magnitude worse, and nobody notices this and complains about it because people with that much technical clue nowadays are few and far between. > JSON is a compact format but not the only one possible. I wouldn't call it compact at all, but that's a relative matter. I deal with lots of binary protocols. >> Gads, man. I'm not talking about using X11 to somehow "replace" the >> friggin' WWW. I'm talking about using it from DOWNSTAIRS. > > Wifi sucks. :) On that we agree! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 13:18:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:18:58 -0400 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 09:02 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Now we have web browsers where the heavy lifting is done remotely and > pushed to a thin client (Opera Mini, Amazon Silk), and work is also > being done on streaming video for compute-heavy game graphics to devices > which are too small to render it realtime themselves. That could end up > being a popular model, even if it sounds odd at first, being such a > reversal of the "buy the biggest PC and graphics card you can" model. > > None of the long haul uses X11... Sorry Dave. No apologies necesary, the real data processing world is just lucky that you don't know a whole lot about this. ;) Web browsers aren't going to replace windowing systems anytime soon, sparky. Sorry. Videogames and cell phones aren't the entire future of computing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 13:22:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:22:44 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 10:14 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> So NeXT was a success like STRETCH or F S. > > It at least had some good ideas. And there were a WHOLE LOT of NeXT machines sold. Many people (like apparently Will) haven't seen lots of them in the wild, I'm guessing because they just haven't been in the right places. Half of the country's colleges, and a little office building called The Pentagon were filled to overflowing with those machines. > Heck, I'm using WindowMaker right > now... and have used it for something like ten years. I don't know if > that makes it a *good* environment, but it at least makes it pretty > darn usable. Of course, my second favorite is TWM, so perhaps I'm a > poor data point. Better watch out, Firefox is going to replace it any day now, and it will be illegal to run a windowing system! (nevermind the whole "how will Firefox get its bits to the screen" thing...some kid will figure out how to do that with Perl or JavaScript any day now) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 13:23:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:23:31 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9489A3.5010906@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2011 11:30 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> I'm not talking about gzip. I'm talking about compression *in general* >> which means designing your vocabulary and operations to suit the >> domain in question. X11 cannot do this, it's at least one level >> removed from this flexibility - but systems like NeWS *can* too (at >> least to my recollection), and they made X11 look crummy at the time. > > That reminds me of something... Would it be practical to bring back > something like NeWS and Display Postscript? Could it even be done? MacOS X's native windowing system is pretty similar to Display Postscript. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 13:28:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 11:28:01 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111011105803.S45605@shell.lmi.net> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara>, <4E940667.21042.8D8A6@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111011105803.S45605@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E942841.6129.8D16C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2011 at 10:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > Have the lawyers written to them about their "Apple Store"? Don't know about that, but doesn anyone remember Victor suing an East Coast electronics retailer that had used that name for 20 years ? Granted, the part of Victor that made the Comptometer and dictation machines had been around for a long time, but the lawsuit was a waste of investor capital and was ridiculous. As I recall, a settlement was reached with the guy where Victor funded some of the cost of changing the guy's DBA name. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 13:32:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 11:32:49 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara>, , <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2011 at 10:49, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal > > > computer. > > I think that he owes Gary Kildall an apology. That'd be kind of difficult to pull off now, dontcha think? I know that Gary's buddies urged him to sue Microsoft, but he just wasn't that sort of person. It could have gotten pretty costly, considering that BillG would likely have had his daddy's law firm (Vogel & Gates) handling the case on a priority basis. --Chuck From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:38:30 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:38:30 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Ian King wrote: > You're relying on the ruling of a judge who was found to be prejudiced in > the case and removed? And "steal[ing]" is a pretty harsh word to use in > relation to the pricing policy of a product you were not compelled to buy. > -- Ian > " In addition, Microsoft charges a lower price to OEMs who agree to ship all but a minute fraction of their machines with an operating system pre- installed." For a while, you simply couldn't buy a PC without Windows. Even if you were going immediately uninstall Windows and install Linux, or Solaris x86, or OS/2, or BeOS. This directly affected a company I worked for who bought commodity PCs to run various Solaris x86 staging and development environments. The net result of their pricing policy was everyone who bought a computer was charged for Windows, whether they used it or not. I'd say that veers into "stealing" territory. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:41:01 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:41:01 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?And there were a WHOLE LOT of NeXT machines sold. ?Many people (like > apparently Will) haven't seen lots of them in the wild, I'm guessing because > they just haven't been in the right places. ?Half of the country's colleges, > and a little office building called The Pentagon were filled to overflowing > with those machines. I have several. Who needs one? (I might have a Turbo Slab to spare, but I'm keeping the Cube). In my experience, I saw them at SIGGRAPH in the early 1990s and I saw them in several academic settings (Ohio State and UW for sure), and, IIRC, at NASA Ames. I never saw them in "business" settings. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 14:08:27 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:08:27 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E94942B.3080303@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Hmm, by what definition did they "first make the leap to SCSI"? Are you >> comparing just against an IBM-compatible PC, or do you maybe mean "first >> with on-board SCSI"? Or maybe "first with a machine costing less than $xxxx"? >> >> I'm just surprised, because there seemed to be a *lot* of systems that were >> (or could be made so, if not out of the box) SCSI-capable during the 80s. > > I would be very suprised if the Mac+ was the first computer to have a > SCSI interface. The Mac+ uses a stnadard single-chip SCSI cotnroller > (5380 IIRC), which was not designed to go into the Mac, or even to go > into a 68000 machine. It's a standard chip, off the shelf. Thinking about it, Whitechapel's MG-1 had SCSI on the main PCB as standard equipment, and that was in 1984, so a couple of years before the Mac Plus. The mono display was somewhere around the 1024x768 mark IIRC, and although they were fully-fledged UNIX crates they were primarily intended as single-user desktop machines. Of course for the purposes of argument (umm, I mean discussion) maybe we need to be limiting contenders to those selling within a few % of the Mac Plus :-) (the MG-1 was pretty expensive, given the display resolution, 32-bit CPU and memory expansion options) cheers Jules From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 14:12:56 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 12:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318360376.44083.YahooMailClassic@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/11/11, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have several.? Who needs one?? (I might have a > Turbo Slab to spare, > but I'm keeping the Cube). I need a mono monitor... Or that funny three headed cable to hook the color cube up to it's monitor and soundbox. I would not be opposed to a Turbo Slab (my slab is non-turbo), especially if it had a monitor :) -Ian From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Oct 11 14:26:34 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:26:34 +0200 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111011192634.GA11584@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 02:38:30PM -0400, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Ian King wrote: > > > You're relying on the ruling of a judge who was found to be prejudiced in > > the case and removed? And "steal[ing]" is a pretty harsh word to use in > > relation to the pricing policy of a product you were not compelled to buy. > > -- Ian > > > > " In addition, Microsoft charges a lower price to OEMs who agree to ship all > but a minute fraction of their machines with an operating system pre- > installed." > > For a while, you simply couldn't buy a PC without Windows. Even if you were > going immediately uninstall Windows and install Linux, or Solaris x86, or > OS/2, or BeOS. Oh, you certainly could. Simply buy the machine as a set of carefully selected components, have it assembled by the dealer and pay him for the copy of OS/2 Warp you actually intend to run on it. No Windows tax. BDTD ;-) Ok, finding that copy of OS/2 Warp might be a bit difficult these days, especially if you want to run it on current components ... Now, laptops and complete $BRAND machines were a different matter, true. But with the exception of laptops the only complete PC I bought was about 20 years ago. All machines since have been bought as parts, some of them assembled by the dealer. > This directly affected a company I worked for who bought > commodity PCs to run various Solaris x86 staging and development > environments. The net result of their pricing policy was everyone who bought > a computer was charged for Windows, whether they used it or not. I'd say > that veers into "stealing" territory. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 14:36:17 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 12:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111011123402.N45605@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > While they did (and likely still do!) overcharge for the OS as a part of > being a monopolist (I personally wish they'd been broken up...), it Then they would be the TWO largest software companies. (think back to ALaska's comments to Texas half a century ago) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 13:10:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:10:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thanks (was: Re: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) ...) In-Reply-To: from "O. Sharp" at Oct 5, 11 11:19:50 am Message-ID: > of people have seen fit to publicly argue over the employer's parameters > or express their shock that a company run and paid for by a Microsoft > co-founder might (gasp!) want the prospective employee to be capable of > using Microsoft communication tools. For what it's worth, I'm sure these That was not the point. It was that using particualr programs was given as a requiremnt. I can't remember if understnading TTL and ECL circuit was a requirement or just 'desirable', but : If these Microswoft programs are genuinely so hard to learn and use that doing so is comparable to understanding digital logic circuitry (and in the case of ECL, understanding transmission lines), then I truely pity anyone who has to use them. If (as I suspect) these programs are quite easy to use, particularly for somebody with computer experience, then knowing ther use shouldn't have been given as a 'requirement'. Select a candidate who understands how to debug logic circuitry (somethat that most certainly cannot be learnt in an afternoon), and let them learn how to use said programs if they do not already know them (something that will take an afternoon, at most). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 13:17:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:17:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Linguistic debate, was: Re: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) etc In-Reply-To: <4E8F7AE3.2090404@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 8, 11 00:19:15 am Message-ID: > > Since this thread has gone completely off at a tangent, how about this: > Shouldn't the sentence > "They were an HP9866 printer, an HP71 and an HP82165 GPIO unit, and an > home-made interface" > be > "They were an HP9866 printer, an HP71 and an HP82165 GPIO unit, and *a* > home-made interface " > and similarly > "a 'Oxford comma' " > should be > "*an* 'Oxford comma' " Yes, you are absolutely correct. Mea Culpa. I susepct the secodn one is becuase I always think of 'Oxford' as 'The_Other_Place' to so tm it starts with a consolant. I even once asked for a return train ticked to 'The Other Place' and got a very odd look... > ? > (since "HP" is pronounced "aitch-pee" (beginning with a vowel sound) and > "home-made" begins with a consonant sound). > > Seriously though, I agree with Tony that sometimes minute details of > punctuation, quoting etc can be extremely significant. I spent four The primary purpose of any piece of writing is to communicate. A desirable feature (although that is most certainly secondary to 'communication') is that it looks nice on the page. So yes, follow typesetting conventions where you can, but not if they obscure or corrupt the meaning. And since technical text (particularly computer software manuals) often have to use punctuation marks in non-standard ways, sometimes flowwing typesetting conventions blindly will make nonsense of the text. Of coruse it's best to rewrite the text so that it can be printed using accepted typesettign rules and still has the correct meaning _if you can_. I suspect that's impossible with some Forth documentation, though :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 13:31:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:31:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E930ABA.2257.14FFCA2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 10, 11 03:09:46 pm Message-ID: > > I have a friend who makes custom flutes (draws his own silver tubing, > etc.) and uses a water torch. But the thing uses potassium hydroxide > (very caustic) to improve ionization and the rig draws about 13A at > 240V to produce a fairly small flame. For him, it's probably ideal I only saw the unit briefly, I knew I couldn't afford it (and didn't really need it). You may well ahve added soemthig nto the water to improve codnuction -- something that itself would not produce any other materieals at the electrodes. KOH or NaOH would seem suitable. I rememebr it ran fro ma notmal UK mains socket (which happens to be 240V, 13A :-)). I have no idea how much current it drew. > It's the waste of good human intellect and effort that bothers me. :-( > Witness how many people jumped on Fleischman and Pons' bandwagon. When I was doing research at Bristol, we had a local school student for work experience. She had a quiz set by the school, and one of the questions was 'What were Pons and Fleischman famous for' (this was just after the announcement of Cold Fusion'). My reply which got a good laugh from all concerned was 'making a right ass of themselves'... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 13:38:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:38:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuji Eagle Bearing Replacement In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Oct 10, 11 06:10:42 pm Message-ID: > > At least one of the bearings (the bottom one) is in fact out of the > HDA isn't it? On the top center of the HDA there's some sort of cover > plate and I bet the top bearing is underneath it. Some might count that > as "inside the HDA" but I count it as "on the outside and secured by a > cover plate". There are bearing pullers that will remove a bearing like that without having to pull the shaft first. Typically you drill away the ball cage and the puller ends then hook into the tracks in both the inner and outer races. But I suspect there's no seal under the bearnin in this HDA, so removing it will allow dust in, not to mention the swarf from drilling the cage. And the forces involved in remove the old bearing and fitting the new one may well case the shaft to move enough to damage heads/platters. > > Not that I've ever done a bearing replacement on an HDA quite like > this. On removable pack drives, sure (RL01/02, RK05, etc) but obviously > the pack was out :-). If oyyu mean you replaced the spidle assembly with the DEC spare parts, then been there, done that. If you actually took the spindle apart and replaced the bearings, I'd be interested to know how. For one thing all the parts are pressed together (no grub screws or anything), I suspect you need a large hydraulic press to do it. And for another there are ferrofluid seals on these spindles IIRC, how did you cope with that? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 13:53:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:53:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Running 110V PDP-11 in a 220V world In-Reply-To: <4E93F4EA.702@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 11, 11 08:48:58 am Message-ID: > > On 07/10/2011 12:52, Tobias Russell wrote: > > I've just got hold of a pair of PDP-11/35s that have 110V power supplies. > > What is the collectives view on the best way of running these in the UK? > > > > Is it safe to use a step down transformer (one of these for example: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3-KVA-SITE-TRANSFORMER-110-VOLT-110V-UK-SUPPLY-3-3KVA-/400198971898?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5d2db7b1fa) > > or can I change the setup of the PSU to work from 220V? > > It's safe, but not very efficient, and there a few other considerations. > > First, you need to realise that a lot of those big yellow site > transformers are not rated for continuous use at the load they claim. > They're intended to run power tools which by their nature are used > intermittently. I don't know about that particular one, but most need > derated by 50%-75% for continuous operation. An 11/40 CPU doesn't draw anything like 3kW from the mains. I think it'll be fine. > Secondly, they produce 55-0-55VAC, ie centre-tapped to ground. Probably > not an issue, but you should be aware of it. > > Lastly, although transformers can be very efficient, no transformer is > 100% efficient (80%-90% is more typical). Which again is not a major problem given the power involve. You're perhaps wasting about 100W. > > The 11/35 (ditto the 11/40, like mine) uses an H742 supply to drive the The 21" box does, sure. I am sure I've seen one in a BA11-K 10.5" box, though > power bricks. It has a terminal strip inside that you can easily jumper > for either 110V or 230V, so there's no reason not to just change it. > Well, no reason except the damned thing is VERY heavy and therfoe > awkward to handle, but you already know that :-) I have a pair of H742s for my 11/45. I seem to remember you cna buld them up in the rack -- put essentially an empty case in and bolt that to the rack fram, then fit the transformer, control board, fans, etc and finally the regualtor bricks. Makes life a bit easier. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 14:31:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:31:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser Message-ID: This may be a bit off-topic, although the instrumetn in question is certainly well over 10 years old, it includes a classic microprocessor (68B09, along with a a 6829 MMU, I've never seen one before), and is certainly suitable for repairing classic computers... Anyway, I've been given a really nice toy -- an HP1530D Logic Analyser. The -D model ahs 16 timing channels (which can be confgured in blocks of 8 as state channels) and a further 27 state channels. HP got a lot right in the design of this instrument -- the fact that the pods can only be disconnected after rmeoving a cover plate means that the pods are unlikely to get spearated from the unit and lost, for example. Anyway, given it's a -D (and not a -G), is there anyting I should know about it? Any fun tricks that are not immediately obvious from the manuals (I don't have these on paper :-(, I've been looking at the ones vey kindly provided o nthe Agilent web site) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 15:26:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara>, , <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111011132511.L45605@shell.lmi.net> > > > > Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal > > > > computer. > > I think that he owes Gary Kildall an apology. On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That'd be kind of difficult to pull off now, dontcha think? The thread that got us here was about post-death apologies > I know that Gary's buddies urged him to sue Microsoft, but he just > wasn't that sort of person. It could have gotten pretty costly, > considering that BillG would likely have had his daddy's law firm > (Vogel & Gates) handling the case on a priority basis. Gary was, indeed, not that sort of person. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 14:53:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:53:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94942B.3080303@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 11, 11 02:08:27 pm Message-ID: > Thinking about it, Whitechapel's MG-1 had SCSI on the main PCB as standard > equipment, and that was in 1984, so a couple of years before the Mac Plus. Does it? I've jeust been through the schematics and I can't find any SCSI inerface. The hard disk interface is essentially ST412, but there's a connector allowing acces to the HDC chip pins which was going to be used for an SMD interface. Problem was, the DMA controller couldn;'t handle SMD data rates... I think the Hitechs had SCSI on the motherboard (which didn't contain the CPU, that was a plug-in card), but they're considerably later. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 16:22:18 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal computer. > > I think that he owes Gary Kildall an apology. > > > On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> FYI, go watch that "1984" commercial that Apple is so famous for. Every >> time you hear "IBM", say "Apple". It fits really well. > > I like the Futurama take on it: > "HEY! We were watching that!" > It's not often I wander around with my foot in a bucket. Today was one of those days. *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 16:24:42 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > No apologies necesary, the real data processing world is just lucky that > you don't know a whole lot about this. ;) Web browsers aren't going to > replace windowing systems anytime soon, sparky. Sorry. Videogames and cell > phones aren't the entire future of computing. > > -Dave > > >-- >Dave McGuire >New Kensington, PA ^^^^^^^^^^ Is that where those awesome trackballs are born? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 11 16:27:28 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:27:28 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111011212728.GE29940@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > > Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal computer. > > I think that he owes Gary Kildall an apology. As the story goes, IBM approached Microsoft initially for BASIC for (what would become) the IBM PC. Microsoft started working on that. Them IBM came back and wanted a few more programming langauges like COBOL and FORTRAN for the IBM PC. Bill Gates realized that required an operating system, and sent IBM to talk to Gary Kildall over at Digital Research Inc. For whatever reason, Gary was not in the office at the time and his wife (at the time, she helped run the company) was relunctant to sign the NDAs IBM wanted. So IBM went back to Microsoft and ask if they might not want to do an operating system. Bill Gates, hearing opportunity knocking quite loudly (and knowing of an outfit in Seattle that had an 8086 based operating system they could license) Bill said yes, they could also provide the operating system. When the IBM PC finally came out in August of 1981, there were three operating systems available for it: PC-DOS (aka MS-DOS, rebranded by IBM), UCSD-P system, and CP/M-86 by Digital Research (Gary eventually signed the NDAs and developed a version for IBM). Of the three, PC-DOS was the preferred option from IBM, and also the cheapest ... -spc (So I'm not sure if Bill owes Gary an apology or not ... ) From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 11 16:30:53 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:30:53 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 11 Oct 2011 at 10:49, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > > Gates steals daily from almost everyone who uses a personal > > > > computer. > > > > I think that he owes Gary Kildall an apology. > > That'd be kind of difficult to pull off now, dontcha think? > > I know that Gary's buddies urged him to sue Microsoft, but he just > wasn't that sort of person. It could have gotten pretty costly, > considering that BillG would likely have had his daddy's law firm > (Vogel & Gates) handling the case on a priority basis. I think Gary would have had a better shot of suing Seattle Computer Products as they were the ones that originally cloned CP/M for the 8086 (and licensed the codebase to Microsoft (for years---eventually Microsoft would buy the license outright from Seattle Computer Products)). -spc From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 16:31:15 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111011123402.N45605@shell.lmi.net> References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> <20111011123402.N45605@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> While they did (and likely still do!) overcharge for the OS as a part of >> being a monopolist (I personally wish they'd been broken up...), it > > Then they would be the TWO largest software companies. (think back to > ALaska's comments to Texas half a century ago) I think anything that broke dev & apps away from the OS half would have been a good thing. The MSDN behemoth has been one hell of a juggernaut to fight. I'm hoping Embarcadero (the owners of Delphi/C++ Builder) continues to make inroads against Visual Studio - especially now that they can target MacOS/iOS and Windows x64 from the same compiler chain. (VB.Net and Pick pays the mortgage, but Delphi is still my first love) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 11 16:37:49 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:37:49 -0700 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote about the HP 1630 logic analyzer: > the fact that the pods can only be > disconnected after rmeoving a cover plate means that the pods are unlikely > to get spearated from the unit and lost, for example. Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the value of what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do in fact show up routinely without pods. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 11 16:13:05 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:13:05 +0100 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 References: <201110080400.p9840Yni014284@floodgap.com>, <4E8FD3E1.60401@atarimuseum.com> <4E8F8392.25493.2FC42C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00fe01cc885e$2376bfb0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > On 8 Oct 2011 at 0:38, someone wrote: > > > Yes, if only the human body was designed that way. > > The human body was made for the purpose of making more human bodies-- > something it appears to do very well. > > Let's see your Macbook do that... > > --Chuck > Also important, the human body can repair itself and fix (most) problems without assistance. How many Mac's (or any other computer - not counting Zylons or the 'Borg) can do that? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 11 16:47:16 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:47:16 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> Sean Conner wrote: > I think Gary would have had a better shot of suing Seattle Computer > Products as they were the ones that originally cloned CP/M for the 8086 (and > licensed the codebase to Microsoft (for years---eventually Microsoft would > buy the license outright from Seattle Computer Products)). The question is whether QDOS/86-DOS/MS-DOS/IBM-DOS actually contained any code from CP/M. It's one thing to develop a clone that supports essentially the same APIs, and another to actually copy the code. I've heard numerous people claim that the code was copied, but I haven't ever seen hard evidence of that. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 16:48:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:48:35 -0400 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E94B9B3.30206@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 05:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> New Kensington, PA > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > Is that where those awesome trackballs are born? :) Hey, you know, I've never checked! It's certainly possible. It was the birthplace of Alcoa Aluminum (and the US aluminum industry), for one thing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Oct 11 16:48:49 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:48:49 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E94B9C1.2090507@verizon.net> On 10/11/2011 03:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Thinking about it, Whitechapel's MG-1 had SCSI on the main PCB as standard >> equipment, and that was in 1984, so a couple of years before the Mac Plus. > Does it? I've jeust been through the schematics and I can't find any SCSI > inerface. The hard disk interface is essentially ST412, but there's a > connector allowing acces to the HDC chip pins which was going to be used > for an SMD interface. Problem was, the DMA controller couldn;'t handle > SMD data rates... > > I think the Hitechs had SCSI on the motherboard (which didn't contain the > CPU, that was a plug-in card), but they're considerably later. > > -tony > > The AmproLB+ had SCSI (using the NCR5380 chip) then it was actually SASI as the SCSI spec was not real then. Also the MicroMint SB180 had a SASI/SCSI board (used the 5380) Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Oct 11 17:00:13 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:00:13 -0400 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E94BC6D.80708@verizon.net> On 10/11/2011 02:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have a friend who makes custom flutes (draws his own silver tubing, >> etc.) and uses a water torch. But the thing uses potassium hydroxide >> (very caustic) to improve ionization and the rig draws about 13A at >> 240V to produce a fairly small flame. For him, it's probably ideal > I only saw the unit briefly, I knew I couldn't afford it (and didn't > really need it). You may well ahve added soemthig nto the water to > improve codnuction -- something that itself would not produce any other > materieals at the electrodes. KOH or NaOH would seem suitable. > > I rememebr it ran fro ma notmal UK mains socket (which happens to be > 240V, 13A :-)). I have no idea how much current it drew. > I've used the water torches myself. The electrolyte is Sulphuric Acid for conduction and you add water daily (if used in production applications). It produces a small (maybe 1-2mm) flame and is extremely hot. We used them to weld leads to platinum wires (special application) and to join wires like those used for J and K type thermocouples. As to power it ran from a bench outlet often two or three of them from the same 100V strip and I believe the power used was well under 250W. Allison From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:02:30 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:02:30 -0500 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> References: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I think I have one burried around here somewhere, but no idea on the pods. Paul On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote about the HP 1630 logic analyzer: >> the fact that the pods can only be >> disconnected after rmeoving a cover plate means that the pods are unlikely >> to get spearated from the unit and lost, for example. > > Nope. ?You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the value > of what they're reselling. ?I don't know why they do it. ?These do in fact > show up routinely without pods. > > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 11 17:05:04 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:05:04 -0700 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E94BD90.5020509@jwsss.com> On 10/11/2011 11:18 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2011 09:02 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Now we have web browsers where the heavy lifting is done remotely and >> pushed to a thin client (Opera Mini, Amazon Silk), and work is also >> being done on streaming video for compute-heavy game graphics to devices >> which are too small to render it realtime themselves. That could end up >> being a popular model, even if it sounds odd at first, being such a >> reversal of the "buy the biggest PC and graphics card you can" model. >> >> None of the long haul uses X11... Sorry Dave. > > No apologies necesary, the real data processing world is just lucky > that you don't know a whole lot about this. ;) Web browsers aren't > going to replace windowing systems anytime soon, sparky. Sorry. > Videogames and cell phones aren't the entire future of computing. > > -Dave > If you want real Neanderthal views, I don't think that the X / gui interface is useful. Real heads down data entry still doesn't work as fast on anything PC unless it is emulating a good old fashioned terminal. we had people who could do data entry at full keying speed on our systems with a Microdata Reality system running 32 terminal. Mind you this was on a system with an 8 bit microprogrammed data base system, virtual memory, and interpreted Basic as the system applications implementation language. That said, I had several of my keyers up to recently who have never seen a system which didn't cause more pauses or keying errors than they had on the keying system. I don't mind this, but have to say that there are some applications where the old way got it right, and none of the replacements could fully come up to the original system. web based access over direct session access of any sort will have problems it cannot solve as well, etc. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 17:09:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94B9B3.30206@neurotica.com> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> <4E94B9B3.30206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2011 05:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> New Kensington, PA >> ^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> Is that where those awesome trackballs are born? :) > > Hey, you know, I've never checked! It's certainly possible. It was the > birthplace of Alcoa Aluminum (and the US aluminum industry), for one thing. > I scored a new one a couple of months ago - they've added a "scroll ring" to the standard trackball (the one with the 2" ball). Unfortunately, they've gone to optical tracking so you can't just drop a Que ball into one any longer. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 18:12:26 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 16:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94BD90.5020509@jwsss.com> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> <4E94BD90.5020509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, jim s wrote: > we had people who could do data entry at full keying speed on our systems > with a Microdata Reality system running 32 terminal. Mind you this was on a > system with an 8 bit microprogrammed data base system, virtual memory, and > interpreted Basic as the system applications implementation language. > The last place I worked used something similar, although we used UniVerse on a Sparc 10 that hosted 40+ users. Our data entry application was highly specialized - it was a strict top-down flow without so much as a single screen addressed field. You started off entering the pro # from the freight bill and cranked on through the whole thing and then entered the pro # again as the last step. We had some astonishingly fast data entry people. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 18:24:42 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 16:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now THIS is nuts... Message-ID: eBay # 120788797213 The guy makes wiredforservice look like a piker. *laughs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 11 18:48:39 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:48:39 -0600 Subject: space bar needed for LA30 Message-ID: Does anyone (Paul?) happen to have a spare space bar for the LA30? Is the spacebar used on the LA36 a suitable replacement? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 19:09:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:09:28 -0700 Subject: Cooling design - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94BC6D.80708@verizon.net> References: , <4E94BC6D.80708@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E947848.4654.1C5B28B@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2011 at 18:00, allison wrote: > I've used the water torches myself. The electrolyte is Sulphuric Acid > for conduction and you add water daily (if used in production > applications). It produces a small (maybe 1-2mm) flame and is > extremely hot. We used them to weld leads to platinum wires (special > application) and to join wires like those used for J and K type > thermocouples. I pulled out my Rio Grande catalog, and checked. RG is the big supplier to the jewelry trade here. Lots of very expensive tools, among them laser welders and water torches. The "water torch" section shows several models, all >USD$2000. All use the same electrolyte--KOH: http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Rio-Dry-Mix-Electrolyte-for- Hydroflux-Welding-Machine-or-Rio-Water-Torch/500223 They give a tiny flame that's both a bit lower in temperature (2800C vs. 3500C) than oxy-acetylene (also see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxy- fuel_welding_and_cutting) and not quite as hot (H2 at near- atmospheric pressures doesn't have a lot of energy density). I've welded Pt- Pt-Rh thermocouple wire (for steelmaking furnaces) and used a standard oxyacetylene torch with a fine tip. We'd scavenge the bits of what was about AWG 20 wire from the 4 foot thermocouples and butt-weld them to make longer pieces for reuse. My depth perception isn't wonderful, but there were one or two guys in the shop who were always dead-on. I did much better with the iron- constantan couples which were very long and used what looked like AWG 12 wire. Methanol is sometimes added to the electrolyte mix in a water torch as a flux when welding precious metals. My friend the flute builder uses 3 electrolysis units with outputs in parallel (one on each phase of his shop supply) to provide sufficient fuel for his work. The benchtop models that use only hundreds of watts typically have a torch tip the size of a hypodermic needle. One reason that the jewelers like them is not for the heat or temperature, but because carbon-containing fuels (propylene, acetylene, are a challenge to adjust so that they neither carbonize nor oxidize the workpiece as the flame is moved over it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 19:16:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:16:55 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <00fe01cc885e$2376bfb0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <201110080400.p9840Yni014284@floodgap.com>, <00fe01cc885e$2376bfb0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4E947A07.23039.1CC83A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2011 at 22:13, Andrew Burton wrote: > Also important, the human body can repair itself and fix (most) > problems without assistance. How many Mac's (or any other computer - > not counting Zylons or the 'Borg) can do that? Not many. On the other hand, I've sometimes viewed humans as parasitic organisms that assist computers in evolution and self- reproduction. Once they have no need for us, we're done for... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 19:18:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:18:56 -0700 Subject: Now THIS is nuts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E947A80.4774.1CE5DA9@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2011 at 16:24, Gene Buckle wrote: > > eBay # 120788797213 > > The guy makes wiredforservice look like a piker. *laughs* Hey, I've still a box with that in original shrink-wrap. It's got to be worth at least $2M, no? --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 19:53:03 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:53:03 -0500 Subject: space bar needed for LA30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think they are the same, but the VT05 and VT14 (I'm not taking one off mine) might be a match. I don't have any IPB's handy, but if the LA36 is a match I might have an extra one. I need to relocate a bunch of LA36's and LA120's or find a home for some of them soon. I'm still looking for a LA30, LA180 and VT05 for myself. Paul On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Richard wrote: > Does anyone (Paul?) happen to have a spare space bar for the LA30? > > Is the spacebar used on the LA36 a suitable replacement? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 20:17:41 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:17:41 -0400 Subject: SCSI as standard in the Personal Computer market - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94942B.3080303@gmail.com> References: <4E94942B.3080303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E94EAB5.7060501@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 3:08 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> Hmm, by what definition did they "first make the leap to SCSI"? Are >>> you comparing just against an IBM-compatible PC, or do you maybe mean >>> "first with on-board SCSI"? Or maybe "first with a machine costing >>> less than $xxxx"? >>> >>> I'm just surprised, because there seemed to be a *lot* of systems >>> that were (or could be made so, if not out of the box) SCSI-capable >>> during the 80s. >> >> I would be very suprised if the Mac+ was the first computer to have a >> SCSI interface. Nobody claimed it was. >> The Mac+ uses a stnadard single-chip SCSI cotnroller >> (5380 IIRC), which was not designed to go into the Mac, or even to go >> into a 68000 machine. It's a standard chip, off the shelf. > > Thinking about it, Whitechapel's MG-1 had SCSI on the main PCB as > standard equipment, and that was in 1984, so a couple of years before > the Mac Plus. The Sun 3 also had SCSI on the motherboard, and must predate the Plus, but that's the workstation market - not a computer your grandmother, or a non-technical small business owner might buy. > > The mono display was somewhere around the 1024x768 mark IIRC, and > although they were fully-fledged UNIX crates they were primarily > intended as single-user desktop machines. > > Of course for the purposes of argument (umm, I mean discussion) maybe we > need to be limiting contenders to those selling within a few % of the > Mac Plus :-) (the MG-1 was pretty expensive, given the display > resolution, 32-bit CPU and memory expansion options) From the outset I'm talking about the personal computer market, not high end or workstations. The Plus was, iirc, something like AUD $3,500-$4,000 - rather less in US$ at the time. And I could afford one right out of high school, so it was easily affordable. One could argue that in a sense SCSI was a "bad call" on the part of Apple, since the volume market never took it up, but went ATA and SATA instead, and Apple eventually had to follow suit. But certainly a good diversity of quality SCSI peripherals were available to Mac users during the years it was standard. --Toby > > cheers > > Jules > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 20:21:02 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:21:02 -0400 Subject: try to buy a PC without Windows - was Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <66FE80BC51734E82A2D6480E1A49C406@portajara> <20111010232344.GA29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E939354.2050601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E94EB7E.302@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 2:38 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Ian King wrote: > >> You're relying on the ruling of a judge who was found to be prejudiced in >> the case and removed? And "steal[ing]" is a pretty harsh word to use in >> relation to the pricing policy of a product you were not compelled to buy. >> -- Ian >> > > " In addition, Microsoft charges a lower price to OEMs who agree to ship all > but a minute fraction of their machines with an operating system pre- > installed." > > For a while, you simply couldn't buy a PC without Windows. In general, it's still pretty difficult (wonder why?) And this is not because of lack of consumer demand for (e.g. Linux); when Dell opened their Salesforce-based customer feedback site, it was the #1 request even back then (according to Marc Benioff in "Behind the Cloud"). > Even if you were > going immediately uninstall Windows and install Linux, or Solaris x86, or > OS/2, or BeOS. This directly affected a company I worked for who bought > commodity PCs to run various Solaris x86 staging and development > environments. The net result of their pricing policy was everyone who bought > a computer was charged for Windows, whether they used it or not. That is still the case. --Toby > I'd say > that veers into "stealing" territory. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 20:22:41 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:22:41 -0400 Subject: Display PostScript - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9489A3.5010906@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9489A3.5010906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E94EBE1.2090407@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 2:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/10/2011 11:30 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> I'm not talking about gzip. I'm talking about compression *in general* >>> which means designing your vocabulary and operations to suit the >>> domain in question. X11 cannot do this, it's at least one level >>> removed from this flexibility - but systems like NeWS *can* too (at >>> least to my recollection), and they made X11 look crummy at the time. >> >> That reminds me of something... Would it be practical to bring back >> something like NeWS and Display Postscript? Could it even be done? > > MacOS X's native windowing system is pretty similar to Display Postscript. As is the web browser's SVG/Canvas imaging. --Toby > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 20:24:54 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:24:54 -0400 Subject: ChromeOS - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E94EC66.3060109@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 2:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ... > Better watch out, Firefox is going to replace it any day now, and it > will be illegal to run a windowing system! (nevermind the whole "how > will Firefox get its bits to the screen" thing...some kid will figure > out how to do that with Perl or JavaScript any day now) You know what Google's doing, right? :) http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html --Toby > > -Dave > From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 20:27:10 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> References: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote about the HP 1630 logic analyzer: >> the fact that the pods can only be >> disconnected after rmeoving a cover plate means that the pods are unlikely >> to get spearated from the unit and lost, for example. > > Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the value of > what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do in fact show > up routinely without pods. Seconded. Every single one I've run into at hamfests and swap meets is missing the pods, software and documentation. Clueless &)(*^)^s -- From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 20:32:59 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:32:59 -0400 Subject: The web sucks, text formats suck, Lisp sucks, and wifi sucks - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E948810.8030102@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948810.8030102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E94EE4B.1010307@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 2:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/10/2011 08:51 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Further, that low-level "mechanism, not policy" architecture of X is one >>> of its big points of existence. An X display can look and act like >>> ANYTHING. >> >> And that's the problem. For most uses, the detailed design of widgets >> doesn't matter. You just want a CHECKBOX here, a TEXT field here, and a >> SUBMIT button there. Good enough for Amazon, at least, which is a >> non-trivial UI. Plenty of other examples too. > > Of course. But that's a website. We're talking about windowing systems > and local (or "slightly remote") apps. What's the difference between a web site (which blurs readily these days into "web application"... Google Docs... GitHub... Twitter...) and a "remote app"? > > Further, toolkits that sit ON TOP OF X give you all that functionality. > They starte with Xt, went through Motif, going all the way up nowadays > to gtk. CHECKBOX here, TEXT field there, and a SUBMIT button > there...except that it's actually fast, and looks a hell of a lot better. Then why doesn't the web look just like Motif, since the web offers everyone unprecedented aesthetic freedom?? > >> Until the www shows itself too embarrassingly incapable of this, you are >> going to be stuck with "cloud" app providers like Google. > > *I* am? No, I'm not. I use OpenOffice (erm, "LibreOffice", thank you > Oracle) for stuff like that. Anyone who embraces the idea of storing > business-proprietary documents on someone else's network, especially > when they happen to be experts in large-scale data mining, needs to have > their head examined. I'm not saying it's clever, or that I do it myself. But it is happening on a massive scale. > > Besides, such "cloud apps" don't seem to have much market penetration. > I've had precisely one client ask about them, and when I explained how > they work (the whole "hand your documents to a search engine company" > angle), his response was something like "Oh wow...FUCK THAT!" > >>> So your logic is that it's ok if it's bloated and inefficient, because >>> we can just compress it? That sounds like the Lispers' arguments that >>> the performance problems associated with Lisp have been "solved" because >>> computers are faster now. >> >> (Lisp doesn't have any performance problem, but that's another thread...) > > You haven't done much Lisp, have you. ;) Quite enough to know you're wrong on that. :) And have you seen what they've done with JavaScript performance lately? And noticed that all these supposedly exotic languages are often faster, now, than old, boring C? Look around... Lisp family languages included. Seen what Erlang can do? And, more importantly, they're much more productive to develop in. > >> No, I am saying that the web is architecturally efficient, at least >> potentially, because it allows complete flexibility in protocol and >> front-end decoding. The protocol you like - doesn't. > > Ha! That's like saying IDE is better than SCSI because IDE doesn't > require those pesky terminators and SCSI does. "The web" allows that > flexibility because, after a few lines of headers are sent, it's just a > raw TCP connection! > >> I'm not talking about gzip. I'm talking about compression *in general* >> which means designing your vocabulary and operations to suit the domain >> in question. X11 cannot do this, it's at least one level removed from >> this flexibility - but systems like NeWS *can* too (at least to my >> recollection), and they made X11 look crummy at the time. > > Ok, I understand your point now. On the point you weren't trying to > make, one thing I really liked was the Cisco compression PAM, but sadly > almost nobody bought it. > > There were certainly windowing systems that had some technical > advantages over X11, but X11 won. It's ironic that the big negative > about X11 was always its bandwidth requirements, but web-based UIs' > bandwidth requirements are orders of magnitude worse, and nobody notices > this and complains about it because people with that much technical clue > nowadays are few and far between. Do you expect to be using X11 in *another* 20 years? > >> JSON is a compact format but not the only one possible. > > I wouldn't call it compact at all, but that's a relative matter. I deal > with lots of binary protocols. There's a lot of representations that binary isn't terribly good for. A good use for binary is, as you mentioned, gzipping a text format. :) Before you object - There are exceptions, of course, where binary is a good idea... --Toby > >>> Gads, man. I'm not talking about using X11 to somehow "replace" the >>> friggin' WWW. I'm talking about using it from DOWNSTAIRS. >> >> Wifi sucks. :) > > On that we agree! > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 20:37:44 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 21:37:44 -0400 Subject: 1984 ad (was re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E94EF68.9090107@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 1:21 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Eric writes: >> Al Kossow wrote about the 1984 ad: >>> http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/1984-good-it-gets-125608 >> This quote from the article was especially interesting: >> I continued working on Apple until 1994, when it became >> clear that there wasn?t a single person left at the company >> who understood or appreciated the Apple brand. IBM was >> more interested in being Apple than Apple was, and I found a >> better audience in Armonk than I did in Cupertino. > > I certainly never was an Apple employee unlike others here. > > It's interesting that Apple was away from Jobs from 1985 till 1996 and how this overlaps some of the dates others write, or I have implied in the past. > > The 1985 to 1996 period certainly had a lot of solid incremental advances in the Mac. The PowerBook and System 7 certainly blew away anything available on a PC-clone at the time. But at the same time there were NeXT's popping up in offices around me too.... :-) > At the time, while we were waiting for the memory protection promised for System 7 in 1991 (yes, such was promised *koff*), I would have killed for a NeXT or any UNIX machine - although these were totally unaffordable. Where I came from, you'd find them mostly in universities and well funded tech companies. On my Macs, MPW Shell was a great environment that felt UNIX-ish, but UNIX it was not. I sympathise with the kind of angst that propelled Torvalds, around this time, to create his own UNIX on hardware he could afford. --Toby > Tim. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 21:18:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:18:14 -0400 Subject: ChromeOS - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94EC66.3060109@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> <4E94EC66.3060109@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E94F8E6.6050306@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 09:24 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Better watch out, Firefox is going to replace it any day now, and it >> will be illegal to run a windowing system! (nevermind the whole "how >> will Firefox get its bits to the screen" thing...some kid will figure >> out how to do that with Perl or JavaScript any day now) > > You know what Google's doing, right? :) > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html Of course. I should point out that nobody actually USES it. This is your idea of a supporting argument for "everything shall be a web app"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 21:40:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:40:43 -0400 Subject: The web sucks, text formats suck, Lisp sucks, and wifi sucks - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94EE4B.1010307@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948810.8030102@neurotica.com> <4E94EE4B.1010307@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E94FE2B.9030604@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 09:32 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Further, that low-level "mechanism, not policy" architecture of X is >>>> one >>>> of its big points of existence. An X display can look and act like >>>> ANYTHING. >>> >>> And that's the problem. For most uses, the detailed design of widgets >>> doesn't matter. You just want a CHECKBOX here, a TEXT field here, and a >>> SUBMIT button there. Good enough for Amazon, at least, which is a >>> non-trivial UI. Plenty of other examples too. >> >> Of course. But that's a website. We're talking about windowing systems >> and local (or "slightly remote") apps. > > What's the difference between a web site (which blurs readily these days > into "web application"... Google Docs... GitHub... Twitter...) and a > "remote app"? You are picking nits, because you are a troll. YOU know the difference (at least I sure hope you do!), and you know that I know the difference as well. Again you imply that I think the web sucks, X11 is great, and X11 should replace the web, and that the web is actually replacing X11. If this is in fact what you believe, you are incorrect on all counts. >> Further, toolkits that sit ON TOP OF X give you all that functionality. >> They starte with Xt, went through Motif, going all the way up nowadays >> to gtk. CHECKBOX here, TEXT field there, and a SUBMIT button >> there...except that it's actually fast, and looks a hell of a lot better. > > Then why doesn't the web look just like Motif, since the web offers > everyone unprecedented aesthetic freedom?? Again with the trolling. Nothing looks like Motif, but a whole lot of web apps look just like GTK. >>> Until the www shows itself too embarrassingly incapable of this, you are >>> going to be stuck with "cloud" app providers like Google. >> >> *I* am? No, I'm not. I use OpenOffice (erm, "LibreOffice", thank you >> Oracle) for stuff like that. Anyone who embraces the idea of storing >> business-proprietary documents on someone else's network, especially >> when they happen to be experts in large-scale data mining, needs to have >> their head examined. > > I'm not saying it's clever, or that I do it myself. But it is happening > on a massive scale. People are moving to web-based word processors, spreadsheets, and vertical-market software, replacing real software, on a massive scale? Where, exactly? Prove it. Provide company names and number of seats. "Test" installations and Utopian "future office" deployments don't count. Can't? Didn't think so. Ok, provide OS names and release numbers. This would need to be OSs that people actually RUN, so Chrome doesn't count. >>> (Lisp doesn't have any performance problem, but that's another >>> thread...) >> >> You haven't done much Lisp, have you. ;) > > Quite enough to know you're wrong on that. :) Ok, I'll trust you on that. > And have you seen what they've done with JavaScript performance lately? > And noticed that all these supposedly exotic languages are often faster, > now, than old, boring C? Look around... Lisp family languages included. > Seen what Erlang can do? And, more importantly, they're much more > productive to develop in. Interpreted JavaScript has never been faster than C on the same hardware. If you disagree, provide proof. JIT-compiled JavaScript has the potential for being NEARLY as fast, but I have my doubts. It's an object-oriented language running on hardware that is inherently procedural in nature. Bridging that gap involves overhead. The world is full of people who claim that their favorite language is faster than everything else. Most of them are wrong. And for the record, my favorite language, which is slower than just about anything else but that's not why it's my favorite, is Scheme. I don't develop in it professionally because it's...well, too damn slow! >> There were certainly windowing systems that had some technical >> advantages over X11, but X11 won. It's ironic that the big negative >> about X11 was always its bandwidth requirements, but web-based UIs' >> bandwidth requirements are orders of magnitude worse, and nobody notices >> this and complains about it because people with that much technical clue >> nowadays are few and far between. > > Do you expect to be using X11 in *another* 20 years? I have no idea. But you can damn well bet that I'll be a part of guiding where it goes in the intervening time, because I'm not spending my days floating along with whatever trendy, bloated, buzzword-of-the-week thing the trenchcoat-wearing, clove-smoking kids are programming...erm, I mean "writing scripts" in this week. One thing you really need to get through your head is that I'm not suggesting, nor did I ever suggest, nor WOULD I ever suggest, that X11 should replace web browsers. You asserted that X11 is somehow on its way out (which it isn't) because everything is "moving to the web" (or some such) now. That makes about as much sense as suggesting that nuts and bolts are on their way out, because the world is moving to corn on the cob. >>> JSON is a compact format but not the only one possible. >> >> I wouldn't call it compact at all, but that's a relative matter. I deal >> with lots of binary protocols. > > There's a lot of representations that binary isn't terribly good for. A > good use for binary is, as you mentioned, gzipping a text format. :) So make it all fat and inefficient, and let a compression algorithm brute-force it back into smallness again. If you were working for me, I'd fire you. > Before you object - There are exceptions, of course, where binary is a > good idea... This is the first sensible thing you've said in a week, with the small modification of the exceptions being the rule. Computers are binary things. Some computers, notably IBM mainframes and PDP-11s with the CIS option installed, can operate on text efficiently. Most cannot, and we pay for this overhead with poor performance and needing multi-GHz machines to do the very simplest of things. That's a very Microsoft-like attitude to be coming from you. I guess you're not as anti-Microsoft as your rants would have us believe. I have had enough of your trolling and your feigned cluelessness. I believe that you actually do know quite a bit about this technology, but you keep making unbelievably stupid assertions in an apparent effort to stir up a fight. If you were here, I'd punch you in the mouth repeatedly and send you home crying to your mommy. You're not, though, so I'll just tell you to go fuck yourself until you want to talk about classic computers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 21:52:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:52:40 -0400 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94BD90.5020509@jwsss.com> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> <4E94BD90.5020509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E9500F8.8030203@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 06:05 PM, jim s wrote: > If you want real Neanderthal views, I don't think that the X / gui > interface is useful. Real heads down data entry still doesn't work as > fast on anything PC unless it is emulating a good old fashioned terminal. > > we had people who could do data entry at full keying speed on our > systems with a Microdata Reality system running 32 terminal. Mind you > this was on a system with an 8 bit microprogrammed data base system, > virtual memory, and interpreted Basic as the system applications > implementation language. > > That said, I had several of my keyers up to recently who have never seen > a system which didn't cause more pauses or keying errors than they had > on the keying system. > > I don't mind this, but have to say that there are some applications > where the old way got it right, and none of the replacements could fully > come up to the original system. That's not a "Neanderthal view", that's a practical productivity view. I know several professional accountants and a couple of EAs, and they all say the same thing. Everything "went Windows" in their business a few years ago, and their data entry efficiency dropped through the floor. One of my best friends is a guy a few years older than me who writes custom extensions for a large, well-known, big-company commercial accounting package that is now Windows-only. He frequently gets questions from his customers about about writing a character-based interface for it. (his wife is an EA) Now, before people like Toby latch onto that and scream at me for "hating GUIs" or "hating anything modern" or whatever people like to push my buttons about, I LOVE GUIs, and I LOVE modern things. It's just that I love the concept of "using the right tool for the job" even more. If that tool happens to have been introduced to the world at an earlier time than some other tool, then so be it, it's still the right tool for the job. Period. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 21:53:32 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:53:32 -0400 Subject: ChromeOS - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94F8E6.6050306@neurotica.com> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> <4E94EC66.3060109@telegraphics.com.au> <4E94F8E6.6050306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E95012C.8030506@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 10:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2011 09:24 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Better watch out, Firefox is going to replace it any day now, and it >>> will be illegal to run a windowing system! (nevermind the whole "how >>> will Firefox get its bits to the screen" thing...some kid will figure >>> out how to do that with Perl or JavaScript any day now) >> >> You know what Google's doing, right? :) >> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html > > Of course. I should point out that nobody actually USES it. This is your > idea of a supporting argument for "everything shall be a web app"? Not at all. I'm only pointing out that most things already are, and perhaps it's not quite as technically awful as you make out. :) --T > > -Dave > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 21:58:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > The question is whether QDOS/86-DOS/MS-DOS/IBM-DOS actually contained > any code from CP/M. It's one thing to develop a clone that supports > essentially the same APIs, and another to actually copy the code. I've > heard numerous people claim that the code was copied, but I haven't ever > seen hard evidence of that. There does NOT appear to be any copied code, merely a copy of the API, "look & feel", etc. Patterson at some poiint, explicitly stated that it had originally been intended to be a placeholder while waiting for DR to get CP/M-86 going, and therefore, was deliberately a copy. Therefore, if it were to have been tried in 1981, Microsoft would have won. However, if it were to have been tried a decade later, after the Lotus, etc. suits, then Microsoft would have lost. Q: When did "Intergalactic Digital Research" become "Digital Research, Inc."? Was that before, or after, "Thinker Toys" and "Kentucky Fried Computer" became "Morrow Designs" and "Northstar"? Gary's pals sometimes imply that IBM's visit was a SURPRISE! That is seriously doubtful, and documented to be false. And, the report that the people there thought that it was a drug raid, is very doubtful, but a great story of the culture shock that was involved (IBM's suits V shirtless, shoeless,braless bicycle riding hippies). He knew they were coming, but CHOSE to fly up to Oakland to hang out with Godbout. (That ha sometimes been misreported as "going sailing"). His apologists say that it was important legitimate business, taking some documentation to a client. There was nobody of lesser importance who could take a half a day to deliver a box of binders? His actions, indisunirregardless of attempts to spin them, provided a clear message to IBM of, "Wait in line with the rest of the customers." Q: Was that A) the stupidest thing that anybody has ever done (costing $80B) B) the bravest, gutsiest nose thumbing of all time C) both I'm going with B), but I've never had the courage to do that. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 22:02:32 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:02:32 -0400 Subject: The web sucks, text formats suck, Lisp sucks, and wifi sucks - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94FE2B.9030604@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948810.8030102@neurotica.com> <4E94EE4B.1010307@telegraphics.com.au> <4E94FE2B.9030604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E950348.8010004@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 10:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2011 09:32 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Further, that low-level "mechanism, not policy" architecture of X is >>>>> one >>>>> of its big points of existence. An X display can look and act like >>>>> ANYTHING. >>>> >>>> And that's the problem. For most uses, the detailed design of widgets >>>> doesn't matter. You just want a CHECKBOX here, a TEXT field here, and a >>>> SUBMIT button there. Good enough for Amazon, at least, which is a >>>> non-trivial UI. Plenty of other examples too. >>> >>> Of course. But that's a website. We're talking about windowing systems >>> and local (or "slightly remote") apps. >> >> What's the difference between a web site (which blurs readily these days >> into "web application"... Google Docs... GitHub... Twitter...) and a >> "remote app"? > > You are picking nits, because you are a troll. YOU know the difference > (at least I sure hope you do!), and you know that I know the difference > as well. Again you imply that I think the web sucks, X11 is great, and > X11 should replace the web, and that the web is actually replacing X11. > If this is in fact what you believe, you are incorrect on all counts. X11 as a remote application server is almost gone, that's just the way things went. > >>> Further, toolkits that sit ON TOP OF X give you all that functionality. >>> They starte with Xt, went through Motif, going all the way up nowadays >>> to gtk. CHECKBOX here, TEXT field there, and a SUBMIT button >>> there...except that it's actually fast, and looks a hell of a lot >>> better. >> >> Then why doesn't the web look just like Motif, since the web offers >> everyone unprecedented aesthetic freedom?? > > Again with the trolling. Nothing looks like Motif, but a whole lot of > web apps look just like GTK. If the freedom is there, and Motif looks better, why doesn't it look like Motif? Honest question, not trolling. I don't have time to take that up as a new hobby. > >>>> Until the www shows itself too embarrassingly incapable of this, you >>>> are >>>> going to be stuck with "cloud" app providers like Google. >>> >>> *I* am? No, I'm not. I use OpenOffice (erm, "LibreOffice", thank you >>> Oracle) for stuff like that. Anyone who embraces the idea of storing >>> business-proprietary documents on someone else's network, especially >>> when they happen to be experts in large-scale data mining, needs to have >>> their head examined. >> >> I'm not saying it's clever, or that I do it myself. But it is happening >> on a massive scale. > > People are moving to web-based word processors, spreadsheets, and > vertical-market software, replacing real software, on a massive scale? > Where, exactly? Prove it. Provide company names and number of seats. > "Test" installations and Utopian "future office" deployments don't count. Yes, SMEs are. It began just over a decade ago. > > Can't? Didn't think so. Ok, provide OS names and release numbers. This > would need to be OSs that people actually RUN, so Chrome doesn't count. Um. Web browsers run on more than Chrome. Even Microsoft admitted the web was important ... 15 years ago. > >>>> (Lisp doesn't have any performance problem, but that's another >>>> thread...) >>> >>> You haven't done much Lisp, have you. ;) >> >> Quite enough to know you're wrong on that. :) > > Ok, I'll trust you on that. > >> And have you seen what they've done with JavaScript performance lately? >> And noticed that all these supposedly exotic languages are often faster, >> now, than old, boring C? Look around... Lisp family languages included. >> Seen what Erlang can do? And, more importantly, they're much more >> productive to develop in. > > Interpreted JavaScript has never been faster than C on the same > hardware. If you disagree, provide proof. JIT-compiled JavaScript has > the potential for being NEARLY as fast, but I have my doubts. It's an > object-oriented language running on hardware that is inherently > procedural in nature. Bridging that gap involves overhead. There are several interesting cases where very high level languages outperform C. But that's only one metric. > > The world is full of people who claim that their favorite language is > faster than everything else. Most of them are wrong. That's not the point I'm making. It's also a very uninteresting contest. > > And for the record, my favorite language, which is slower than just > about anything else but that's not why it's my favorite, is Scheme. I > don't develop in it professionally because it's...well, too damn slow! > We have something in common then; I like Scheme a lot. But to say it's slow is silly. Many Schemes compile to C. >>> There were certainly windowing systems that had some technical >>> advantages over X11, but X11 won. It's ironic that the big negative >>> about X11 was always its bandwidth requirements, but web-based UIs' >>> bandwidth requirements are orders of magnitude worse, and nobody notices >>> this and complains about it because people with that much technical clue >>> nowadays are few and far between. >> >> Do you expect to be using X11 in *another* 20 years? > > I have no idea. But you can damn well bet that I'll be a part of guiding > where it goes in the intervening time, because I'm not spending my days > floating along with whatever trendy, bloated, buzzword-of-the-week thing > the trenchcoat-wearing, clove-smoking kids are programming...erm, I mean > "writing scripts" in this week. > > One thing you really need to get through your head is that I'm not > suggesting, nor did I ever suggest, nor WOULD I ever suggest, that X11 > should replace web browsers. No, I didn't think you said that. But you did seem to think the web was an unpleasant step down from X11. > You asserted that X11 is somehow on its way > out (which it isn't) because everything is "moving to the web" (or some > such) now. That makes about as much sense as suggesting that nuts and > bolts are on their way out, because the world is moving to corn on the cob. X11 *as a remote computing service* is almost dead and buried. X11 in general is on its way out, but quite slowly. Not that I care much, I have spent the last decade mostly on more modern systems. This discussion began with Display PostScript and NeWS, which showed X11 the door, 25 years ago. > >>>> JSON is a compact format but not the only one possible. >>> >>> I wouldn't call it compact at all, but that's a relative matter. I deal >>> with lots of binary protocols. >> >> There's a lot of representations that binary isn't terribly good for. A >> good use for binary is, as you mentioned, gzipping a text format. :) > > So make it all fat and inefficient, and let a compression algorithm > brute-force it back into smallness again. If you were working for me, > I'd fire you. > Eh, okay, but you may have missed my point. >> Before you object - There are exceptions, of course, where binary is a >> good idea... > > This is the first sensible thing you've said in a week, with the small > modification of the exceptions being the rule. Computers are binary > things. Some computers, notably IBM mainframes and PDP-11s with the CIS > option installed, can operate on text efficiently. Most cannot, and we > pay for this overhead with poor performance and needing multi-GHz > machines to do the very simplest of things. The PDP-11 popularised byte addressing, indeed. I own quite a few. --T > > That's a very Microsoft-like attitude to be coming from you. I guess > you're not as anti-Microsoft as your rants would have us believe. > > I have had enough of your trolling and your feigned cluelessness. I > believe that you actually do know quite a bit about this technology, but > you keep making unbelievably stupid assertions in an apparent effort to > stir up a fight. If you were here, I'd punch you in the mouth repeatedly > and send you home crying to your mommy. You're not, though, so I'll just > tell you to go fuck yourself until you want to talk about classic > computers. > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 22:03:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:03:10 -0400 Subject: ChromeOS - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E95012C.8030506@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> <4E94EC66.3060109@telegraphics.com.au> <4E94F8E6.6050306@neurotica.com> <4E95012C.8030506@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E95036E.3030200@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 10:53 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Better watch out, Firefox is going to replace it any day now, and it >>>> will be illegal to run a windowing system! (nevermind the whole "how >>>> will Firefox get its bits to the screen" thing...some kid will figure >>>> out how to do that with Perl or JavaScript any day now) >>> >>> You know what Google's doing, right? :) >>> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html >> >> Of course. I should point out that nobody actually USES it. This is your >> idea of a supporting argument for "everything shall be a web app"? > > Not at all. I'm only pointing out that most things already are, Really. Like all those copies of Microsoft Office, iTunes, Thunderbird...You are so totally off your rocker that, well, I wish I could find it entertaining. *plonk* > and perhaps it's not quite as technically awful as you make out. :) I guess it wouldn't be, if it...well, weren't. Perhaps I have higher expectations, and I know what to use to have them met. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 11 22:09:22 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:09:22 -0400 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9500F8.8030203@neurotica.com> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> <4E94BD90.5020509@jwsss.com> <4E9500F8.8030203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9504E2.3020607@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 10:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2011 06:05 PM, jim s wrote: >> If you want real Neanderthal views, I don't think that the X / gui >> interface is useful. Real heads down data entry still doesn't work as >> fast on anything PC unless it is emulating a good old fashioned terminal. >> >> we had people who could do data entry at full keying speed on our >> systems with a Microdata Reality system running 32 terminal. Mind you >> this was on a system with an 8 bit microprogrammed data base system, >> virtual memory, and interpreted Basic as the system applications >> implementation language. >> >> That said, I had several of my keyers up to recently who have never seen >> a system which didn't cause more pauses or keying errors than they had >> on the keying system. >> >> I don't mind this, but have to say that there are some applications >> where the old way got it right, and none of the replacements could fully >> come up to the original system. > > That's not a "Neanderthal view", that's a practical productivity view. > > I know several professional accountants and a couple of EAs, and they > all say the same thing. Everything "went Windows" in their business a > few years ago, and their data entry efficiency dropped through the > floor. One of my best friends is a guy a few years older than me who > writes custom extensions for a large, well-known, big-company commercial > accounting package that is now Windows-only. He frequently gets > questions from his customers about about writing a character-based > interface for it. (his wife is an EA) > > Now, before people like Toby latch onto that and scream at me for > "hating GUIs" or "hating anything modern" or whatever people like to > push my buttons about, I LOVE GUIs, and I LOVE modern things. Lately you are ascribing to me a lot of positions, or anticipating assertions, that I haven't made. For example, I never said you hate GUIs, or hate anything modern. Most of what I was saying was defending the web as a decent (if not perfect) implementation of remote computing services. Some of my points blurred into the internet, admittedly (like streaming video), but TCP/IP isn't perfect either. Nothing is perfect, is it. Try calming down a tad. I'm not the Antichrist. After all, I like Scheme. :) > It's just > that I love the concept of "using the right tool for the job" even more. > If that tool happens to have been introduced to the world at an earlier > time than some other tool, then so be it, it's still the right tool for > the job. Period. Many old ways were wonderful, I'm often the first to say so. --T > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 22:37:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:37:18 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net>, <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com>, <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E94A8FE.12346.283F7E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2011 at 19:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > Gary's pals sometimes imply that IBM's visit was a SURPRISE! That is > seriously doubtful, and documented to be false. And, the report that > the people there thought that it was a drug raid, is very doubtful, > but a great story of the culture shock that was involved (IBM's suits > V shirtless, shoeless,braless bicycle riding hippies). He knew they > were coming, but CHOSE to fly up to Oakland to hang out with Godbout. > (That ha sometimes been misreported as "going sailing"). His > apologists say that it was important legitimate business, taking some > documentation to a client. There was nobody of lesser importance who > could take a half a day to deliver a box of binders? His actions, > indisunirregardless of attempts to spin them, provided a clear message > to IBM of, "Wait in line with the rest of the customers." I wasn't there, so I can't say. But there's been a lot of apochrypha about the meeting. However, consider: * IBM most likely wanted DRI to tailor a BIOS and the printed documentation to their specifications. DRI was not in the habit of writing other people's CBIOSes. * Were it otherwise, IBM could have purchased an OEM license for CP/M-86. I have the OEM price list for that time and it wasn't terribly expensive--less than Microsoft asked its OEMs for DOS 1.25. * IBM had no idea how many of these things would sell. Apparently, Marketing had initially predicted something like 200K over the life of the product. It might well have turned out to have the volume of the 5100. I worked on licensing an MP/M II OEM license with DRI for a client at almost precisely the same time that the IBM incident occurred. I found DRI to be very accommodating and friendly. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 22:42:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:42:49 -0400 Subject: The web sucks, text formats suck, Lisp sucks, and wifi sucks - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E950348.8010004@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948810.8030102@neurotica.com> <4E94EE4B.1010307@telegraphics.com.au> <4E94FE2B.9030604@neurotica.com> <4E950348.8010004@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E950CB9.2090401@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 11:02 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> What's the difference between a web site (which blurs readily >>> these days into "web application"... Google Docs... GitHub... >>> Twitter...) and a "remote app"? >> >> You are picking nits, because you are a troll. YOU know the >> difference (at least I sure hope you do!), and you know that I know >> the difference as well. Again you imply that I think the web sucks, >> X11 is great, and X11 should replace the web, and that the web is >> actually replacing X11. If this is in fact what you believe, you >> are incorrect on all counts. > > X11 as a remote application server is almost gone, that's just the > way things went. Yes! Years ago! I never disputed that assertion, in fact I've agreed with it several times. What I've DISagreed with is the notion that the WWW is the end-all, be-all of user interfaces and windowing systems that will replace everything. >>> Then why doesn't the web look just like Motif, since the web >>> offers everyone unprecedented aesthetic freedom?? >> >> Again with the trolling. Nothing looks like Motif, but a whole lot >> of web apps look just like GTK. > > If the freedom is there, and Motif looks better, why doesn't it look > like Motif? Honest question, not trolling. I don't have time to take > that up as a new hobby. Probably because Motif doesn't look better! (seriously!) If web app designers wanted their stuff to look like Motif, surely they'd do it. While I liked Motif (the look and feel, not the programming...that part sucked!) in the early 1990s, my tastes have evolved. ;) >> People are moving to web-based word processors, spreadsheets, and >> vertical-market software, replacing real software, on a massive >> scale? Where, exactly? Prove it. Provide company names and number >> of seats. "Test" installations and Utopian "future office" >> deployments don't count. > > Yes, SMEs are. It began just over a decade ago. I don't see any company names or desktop counts. I work in that space now and then, and I've not seen or heard of a single one. >> Can't? Didn't think so. Ok, provide OS names and release numbers. >> This would need to be OSs that people actually RUN, so Chrome >> doesn't count. > > Um. Web browsers run on more than Chrome. Even Microsoft admitted the > web was important ... 15 years ago. I'm not disputing the fact that the WWW is important. I never have. I'm disputing your ridiculous notion that it will somehow replace all user interfaces. That's patently absurd! But, you know what, let's just wait and see. >> Interpreted JavaScript has never been faster than C on the same >> hardware. If you disagree, provide proof. JIT-compiled JavaScript >> has the potential for being NEARLY as fast, but I have my doubts. >> It's an object-oriented language running on hardware that is >> inherently procedural in nature. Bridging that gap involves >> overhead. > > There are several interesting cases where very high level languages > outperform C. But that's only one metric. "Speed is only one metric" is something that Lisp performance apologists have been saying for decades. But yes, I've seen those cases. The fact remains that the world's non-pretty-UI devices and performance-sensitive things are still programmed in C for a reason. I work in THAT space (embedded systems) all day long, that's just the way it is there. The other side of the company I work for does nothing but pretty UIs, and all their code is in PHP and JavaScript...where performance doesn't matter. There is more to computing than pretty user interfaces. The microcontroller in your air conditioner wasn't programmed in JavaScript. Or Lisp. And there are a lot more of those around than there are desktop computers. >> And for the record, my favorite language, which is slower than >> just about anything else but that's not why it's my favorite, is >> Scheme. I don't develop in it professionally because it's...well, >> too damn slow! > > We have something in common then; I like Scheme a lot. But to say > it's slow is silly. Many Schemes compile to C. Yes, *programmatically generated* C. If you're smart enough to understand the value of Scheme (and Lisp, and Erlang) you're certainly smart enough to know what that brings with it. >>> Do you expect to be using X11 in *another* 20 years? >> >> I have no idea. But you can damn well bet that I'll be a part of >> guiding where it goes in the intervening time, because I'm not >> spending my days floating along with whatever trendy, bloated, >> buzzword-of-the-week thing the trenchcoat-wearing, clove-smoking >> kids are programming...erm, I mean "writing scripts" in this week. >> >> One thing you really need to get through your head is that I'm not >> suggesting, nor did I ever suggest, nor WOULD I ever suggest, that >> X11 should replace web browsers. > > No, I didn't think you said that. But you did seem to think the web > was an unpleasant step down from X11. No, not at all! No more than corn on the cob is an unpleasant step down from using nuts and bolts as fasteners. They are apples and oranges, they are used in different places for different things, they have different strengths and weaknesses...and your seeming dislike for anything spurned by MacOS X (like X11) aside, neither of them is going away anytime soon, at least not in the real data processing world. >> You asserted that X11 is somehow on its way out (which it isn't) >> because everything is "moving to the web" (or some such) now. That >> makes about as much sense as suggesting that nuts and bolts are on >> their way out, because the world is moving to corn on the cob. > > X11 *as a remote computing service* is almost dead and buried. Of course. We don't need that functionality anymore, except in very rare cases. > X11 in general is on its way out, but quite slowly. Wrong. ONE distribution of ONE desktop OS has talked about moving away from it. One. Another one, MacOS X (only talking about its native windowing system) is so brain-dead for anything other than pretty pictures that one has to use VNC to get to it remotely. > Not that I care > much, I have spent the last decade mostly on more modern systems. More...modern? Like what, exactly? MacOS X, perhaps, I might almost go along with it if it were modern enough to know what a network connection is. > This discussion began with Display PostScript and NeWS, which showed > X11 the door, 25 years ago. I think you mean that the other way around. Both Sun and SGI dumped NeWS for X11. Display Postscript was never popular on anything other than NeXT machines, and briefly as a server extension under X11. Sun dumped it (I think) around SunOS3, and SGI went to X11 in IRIX v4. >> This is the first sensible thing you've said in a week, with the >> small modification of the exceptions being the rule. Computers are >> binary things. Some computers, notably IBM mainframes and PDP-11s >> with the CIS option installed, can operate on text efficiently. >> Most cannot, and we pay for this overhead with poor performance and >> needing multi-GHz machines to do the very simplest of things. > > The PDP-11 popularised byte addressing, indeed. I own quite a few. As do I. I will try really hard to like you because of this. Really hard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 11 22:44:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:44:30 -0400 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9504E2.3020607@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> <4E94BD90.5020509@jwsss.com> <4E9500F8.8030203@neurotica.com> <4E9504E2.3020607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E950D1E.1080008@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2011 11:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Now, before people like Toby latch onto that and scream at me for >> "hating GUIs" or "hating anything modern" or whatever people like to >> push my buttons about, I LOVE GUIs, and I LOVE modern things. > > Lately you are ascribing to me a lot of positions, or anticipating > assertions, that I haven't made. For example, I never said you hate > GUIs, or hate anything modern. Most of what I was saying was defending > the web as a decent (if not perfect) implementation of remote computing > services. Some of my points blurred into the internet, admittedly (like > streaming video), but TCP/IP isn't perfect either. Nothing is perfect, > is it. For that I apologize. Other people have claimed that of me, not you. > Try calming down a tad. I'm not the Antichrist. After all, I like > Scheme. :) :) > > It's just >> that I love the concept of "using the right tool for the job" even more. >> If that tool happens to have been introduced to the world at an earlier >> time than some other tool, then so be it, it's still the right tool for >> the job. Period. > > Many old ways were wonderful, I'm often the first to say so. I am heartened to hear this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 11 23:17:53 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 00:17:53 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <337EAF667BFC469D8806279797FA7446@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:58 PM Subject: Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > Gary's pals sometimes imply that IBM's visit was a SURPRISE! That is > seriously doubtful, and documented to be false. And, the report that the > people there thought that it was a drug raid, is very doubtful, but a > great story of the culture shock that was involved (IBM's suits V > shirtless, shoeless,braless bicycle riding hippies). He knew they were > coming, but CHOSE to fly up to Oakland to hang out with Godbout. (That ha > sometimes been misreported as "going sailing"). His apologists say that > it was important legitimate business, taking some documentation to a > client. There was nobody of lesser importance who could take a half a day > to deliver a box of binders? His actions, indisunirregardless of attempts > to spin them, provided a clear message to IBM of, "Wait in line with the > rest of the customers." > > Q: Was that > A) the stupidest thing that anybody has ever done (costing $80B) > B) the bravest, gutsiest nose thumbing of all time > C) both > > I'm going with B), but I've never had the courage to do that. > I think most people who have plenty of money (he must have made millions over the life of his company) to cover their needs do not go out of their way to get bigger/richer nor do they care to. For all we know even if Gary had signed a contract sooner or later IBM would have just bought him out for a few million. Kildall was no Gates, so I don't think he would have ended up being Microsoft. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 00:21:01 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:21:01 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a current e-mail address for Steve Loboyko? Message-ID: Hi, All, Last week, I intercepted a 1970s Remex paper tape reader from a CNC mill that was on its way to the scrappers. It resembles this one: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/remex.htm I wanted to look at Steve Loboyko's code for his PIC serial adapter and my attempt to download his link to his source was denied by his ISP (due to the .asm extension). I wrote him at the address in the GIF file he embedded in the page and my message bounced. Does anyone have a current address for Steve Loboyko or happen to have already downloaded his file remex.asm and could send it to me? My plan is to examine the code, look for pitfalls, and see what it would take to implement a similar scheme on an AVR chip since that's what I have in abundance. It looks like a fairly simple handshake and perhaps a bitwise data inversion then byte-wise serial transmission, but I'd rather peek over someone's shoulder and see what they did, given the chance. Thanks, -ethan From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 12 00:29:42 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:29:42 -0400 Subject: VCF East 8.0 Message-ID: <4E9525C6.9050906@snarc.net> May 5-6, 2012, at our museum in Wall, New Jersey. Web page not yet ready. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 12 01:00:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 02:00:41 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <337EAF667BFC469D8806279797FA7446@dell8300> References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> <337EAF667BFC469D8806279797FA7446@dell8300> Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2011, at 12:17 AM, "TeoZ" wrote: > think most people who have plenty of money (he must have made millions over the life of his company) to cover their needs do not go out of their way to get bigger/richer nor do they care to. Good heavens man. If that were the case, there wouldn't be protesters on Wall Street. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 12 01:24:34 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 02:24:34 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> <337EAF667BFC469D8806279797FA7446@dell8300> Message-ID: <8DB359867D804162B9EB19140DC496C7@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 2:00 AM Subject: Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > On Oct 12, 2011, at 12:17 AM, "TeoZ" wrote: >> think most people who have plenty of money (he must have made millions >> over the life of his company) to cover their needs do not go out of their >> way to get bigger/richer nor do they care to. > > Good heavens man. If that were the case, there wouldn't be protesters on > Wall Street. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Most people are not ALL people. There are a few who want to die owning everything (and figuring out a way to take it with them). From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 03:53:52 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 01:53:52 -0700 Subject: WTB : HP JETDIRECT J4135A Message-ID: Hello just currious if anybody has an extra hp jetdirect card j4135a with usb I have an older hp4000tn laserjet printer trying to find this card 4 it (no parallel port on the back of my newer conputer) th chris From ats at offog.org Wed Oct 12 05:16:00 2011 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:16:00 +0100 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> (Eric Smith's message of "Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:47:16 -0700") References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Eric Smith writes: > The question is whether QDOS/86-DOS/MS-DOS/IBM-DOS actually contained > any code from CP/M. Tim Paterson argues (convincingly, to my mind) that it didn't; he designed the API to be similar to CP/M's to make porting easy, but he built the guts of the OS from scratch. His blog's worth reading, particularly the early articles: http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/ -- Adam Sampson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 07:47:37 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 07:47:37 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E958C69.7000702@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Thinking about it, Whitechapel's MG-1 had SCSI on the main PCB as standard >> equipment, and that was in 1984, so a couple of years before the Mac Plus. > > Does it? I've jeust been through the schematics and I can't find any SCSI > inerface. The hard disk interface is essentially ST412, but there's a > connector allowing acces to the HDC chip pins which was going to be used > for an SMD interface. Problem was, the DMA controller couldn;'t handle > SMD data rates... You have me wondering now! I thought I remembered a Whitechapel ("MG-1 type", i.e. not Hitech-era) machine with SCSI, but I'm not so sure *what* exactly. I've got board photos of a later CG-200 system and that appears to be an on-board STxxx interface - and indeed I know that a couple of Bletchley's MG-1 machines had STxxx drives and (once you got me thinking about it) I don't recall a SCSI-STxxx bridge board being present, suggesting that they too had integral STxxx. Going against that though, the wikipedia page (yeah, I know! :-) for the MG-1 mentions SCSI as being the interface, and there's also this MG-1 sales flyer: http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/inf/pngs/mg-1-4.png (be warned, it's a 1600x2300 image, so I'm not sure how easily you can view it!) That looks like a 50-pin header right around where the STxxx interface is on the CG-200. Sadly the text just mentions integral Winchester disks and a sophisticated disk controller, without saying what the actual interface is. Unfortunately I've got photos of the outside of some of BP's MG-1 machines, but not the internals, so I can't compare the sales flyer's PCB photo against another genuine MG-1 (I can't find any others online). But it almost seems like there might have been two completely different MG-1 main-boards around, one with SCSI and one with STxxx - if true though that's quite a major change, and I'm surprised that it didn't warrant a completely different model number. cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 12 08:27:31 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:27:31 -0400 Subject: The web sucks, text formats suck, Lisp sucks, and wifi sucks - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E950CB9.2090401@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948810.8030102@neurotica.com> <4E94EE4B.1010307@telegraphics.com.au> <4E94FE2B.9030604@neurotica.com> <4E950348.8010004@telegraphics.com.au> <4E950CB9.2090401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9595C3.3040803@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/11 11:42 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2011 11:02 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> What's the difference between a web site (which blurs readily >>>> these days into "web application"... Google Docs... GitHub... >>>> Twitter...) and a "remote app"? >>> >>> You are picking nits, because you are a troll. YOU know the >>> difference (at least I sure hope you do!), and you know that I know >>> the difference as well. Again you imply that I think the web sucks, >>> X11 is great, and X11 should replace the web, and that the web is >>> actually replacing X11. If this is in fact what you believe, you >>> are incorrect on all counts. >> >> X11 as a remote application server is almost gone, that's just the >> way things went. > > Yes! Years ago! I never disputed that assertion, in fact I've agreed > with it several times. What I've DISagreed with is the notion that the > WWW is the end-all, be-all of user interfaces and windowing systems that > will replace everything. > >>>> Then why doesn't the web look just like Motif, since the web >>>> offers everyone unprecedented aesthetic freedom?? >>> >>> Again with the trolling. Nothing looks like Motif, but a whole lot >>> of web apps look just like GTK. >> >> If the freedom is there, and Motif looks better, why doesn't it look >> like Motif? Honest question, not trolling. I don't have time to take >> that up as a new hobby. > > Probably because Motif doesn't look better! (seriously!) If web app > designers wanted their stuff to look like Motif, surely they'd do it. > While I liked Motif (the look and feel, not the programming...that part > sucked!) in the early 1990s, my tastes have evolved. ;) > >>> People are moving to web-based word processors, spreadsheets, and >>> vertical-market software, replacing real software, on a massive >>> scale? Where, exactly? Prove it. Provide company names and number >>> of seats. "Test" installations and Utopian "future office" >>> deployments don't count. >> >> Yes, SMEs are. It began just over a decade ago. > > I don't see any company names or desktop counts. I work in that space > now and then, and I've not seen or heard of a single one. > >>> Can't? Didn't think so. Ok, provide OS names and release numbers. >>> This would need to be OSs that people actually RUN, so Chrome >>> doesn't count. >> >> Um. Web browsers run on more than Chrome. Even Microsoft admitted the >> web was important ... 15 years ago. > > I'm not disputing the fact that the WWW is important. I never have. I'm > disputing your ridiculous notion that it will somehow replace all user > interfaces. I am not saying that it will, or that it should, really. Just that it works pretty well - which might partly explain its popularity - some might ascribe that to "worse is better," or something. > That's patently absurd! But, you know what, let's just wait > and see. > >>> Interpreted JavaScript has never been faster than C on the same >>> hardware. If you disagree, provide proof. JIT-compiled JavaScript >>> has the potential for being NEARLY as fast, but I have my doubts. >>> It's an object-oriented language running on hardware that is >>> inherently procedural in nature. Bridging that gap involves >>> overhead. >> >> There are several interesting cases where very high level languages >> outperform C. But that's only one metric. > > "Speed is only one metric" is something that Lisp performance apologists > have been saying for decades. It *is* only one metric, and it doesn't imply that any particular system is "slow". Neglect of other metrics (like expressivity, modelling power, and maintainability) is a longstanding plague on the software business. > > But yes, I've seen those cases. The fact remains that the world's > non-pretty-UI devices and performance-sensitive things are still > programmed in C for a reason. I work in THAT space (embedded systems) > all day long, that's just the way it is there. The other side of the > company I work for does nothing but pretty UIs, and all their code is in > PHP and JavaScript...where performance doesn't matter. Of course there are niches where C makes sense. I've written more C than anything else over the years. But very little applications programming requires C or is appropriate in C. > > There is more to computing than pretty user interfaces. The > microcontroller in your air conditioner wasn't programmed in JavaScript. > Or Lisp. And there are a lot more of those around than there are desktop > computers. I'm talking about general business/applications programming. And web applications. > >>> And for the record, my favorite language, which is slower than >>> just about anything else but that's not why it's my favorite, is >>> Scheme. I don't develop in it professionally because it's...well, >>> too damn slow! >> >> We have something in common then; I like Scheme a lot. But to say >> it's slow is silly. Many Schemes compile to C. > > Yes, *programmatically generated* C. If you're smart enough to Do you find the results slow? For what purpose? I'm serious, can you give examples? Not just "one example that's obviously terrible" but a wide range of examples where you discovered that you couldn't possibly use a high level language (like Scheme). > understand the value of Scheme (and Lisp, and Erlang) you're certainly > smart enough to know what that brings with it. Erlang has HiPE. And it really, honestly, is fast enough for what people use it for. Or they would use something else. And the same is true of Haskell, Ocaml, Common Lisp, etc. I don't know about you, but I've seen half a dozen Common Lisp jobs turn up this year - not to mention other interesting languages - and I'd rather be doing that than PHP, wouldn't you? > ... >>> You asserted that X11 is somehow on its way out (which it isn't) >>> because everything is "moving to the web" (or some such) now. That >>> makes about as much sense as suggesting that nuts and bolts are on >>> their way out, because the world is moving to corn on the cob. >> >> X11 *as a remote computing service* is almost dead and buried. > > Of course. We don't need that functionality anymore, except in very > rare cases. > >> X11 in general is on its way out, but quite slowly. > > Wrong. ONE distribution of ONE desktop OS has talked about moving away > from it. One. Another one, MacOS X (only talking about its native > windowing system) is so brain-dead for anything other than pretty > pictures that one has to use VNC to get to it remotely. Or, thank goodness, shell. :D Moving to something new, as popular distributions plan, can be a good thing, can't it? I'm not assuming it will be a disaster at this point. > >> Not that I care >> much, I have spent the last decade mostly on more modern systems. > > More...modern? Like what, exactly? MacOS X, perhaps, I might almost go > along with it if it were modern enough to know what a network connection > is. Mainly OS X, yes. I began using it personally at 10.0. But 10.5 and 10.6 are probably the end of the line for me, like you, I think. > >> This discussion began with Display PostScript and NeWS, which showed >> X11 the door, 25 years ago. > > I think you mean that the other way around. Both Sun and SGI dumped NeWS > for X11. Well, OpenWindows supported both, but NeWS just didn't take off. When I say, "showed the door," I mean demonstrated a far more interesting concept. But X11 stayed around like the drunken party guest who refuses to leave. > Display Postscript was never popular on anything other than > NeXT machines, and briefly as a server extension under X11. Sun dumped > it (I think) around SunOS3, and SGI went to X11 in IRIX v4. > >>> This is the first sensible thing you've said in a week, with the >>> small modification of the exceptions being the rule. Computers are >>> binary things. Some computers, notably IBM mainframes and PDP-11s >>> with the CIS option installed, can operate on text efficiently. >>> Most cannot, and we pay for this overhead with poor performance and >>> needing multi-GHz machines to do the very simplest of things. >> >> The PDP-11 popularised byte addressing, indeed. I own quite a few. > > As do I. I will try really hard to like you because of this. Really hard. I need to cut back on the trolling so I have time to play with them more. *runz* --Toby > > -Dave > From technobug at comcast.net Wed Oct 12 09:51:37 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 07:51:37 -0700 Subject: X11 Message-ID: <07D02627-D72F-4395-91FD-B534E0180C3F@comcast.net> From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 12 09:54:26 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:54:26 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 Message-ID: >> The Mac Plus _did_ have an Apple-designed interface: The ADB port. >> However, as usual, this was thoroughly documented on the hardware and >> software side, and many third party peripherals were built. Ditto >> Appletalk serial - fully documented and specified, many third party >> peripherals. > where are they now? Kinda like asking "where is 20 mA current loop now?" They were proprietary in their origins but with open documentation and set a very good standard for how to implement desktop interfaces "right". ADB's concepts are strong and alive in USB. Appletalk's concepts are strong and alive in Ethernet. (I know, Ethernet predates Appletalk.) Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 12 11:03:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:03:52 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net>, <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> (Eric Smith's message of "Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:47:16 -0700"), Message-ID: <4E9557F8.21847.26F592@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Oct 2011 at 11:16, Adam Sampson wrote: > Eric Smith writes: > > > The question is whether QDOS/86-DOS/MS-DOS/IBM-DOS actually > > contained any code from CP/M. > > Tim Paterson argues (convincingly, to my mind) that it didn't; he > designed the API to be similar to CP/M's to make porting easy, but he > built the guts of the OS from scratch. Oh, given the absurdly simple internals of 8-bit CP/M, I don't doubt that for a second. It'd be worse, given the tools of the time, to try to recycle original code. There were several CP/M work-alikes in the 8-bit world before SCP-DOS--and Paterson's project very clearly used that as a basis, not CP/M-86, which is quite a bit more complex. Paterson did, however, copy the interface and structures of 8-bit CP/M quite liberally, but that wasn't a crime at the time. As far as the utilities, save for a few, such as ED are fairly complicated. Paterson clearly didn't duplicate the functionality of ED; he wasn't even close--nor did he copy the more involved functionality of PIP. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 12:10:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> <337EAF667BFC469D8806279797FA7446@dell8300> Message-ID: <20111012094857.V7495@shell.lmi.net> > > think most people who have plenty of money (he must have made > > millions over the life of his company) to cover their needs do not go > > out of their way to get bigger/richer nor do they care to. On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Good heavens man. If that were the case, there wouldn't be protesters > on Wall Street. I think that his use of the word "most" is extremeley significant -enough so that it should have at least been capitalized. Yes, there are more than a few like Gates, who "compete", and wouldn't stop unless they get ALL of the money. I got that impression over breakfast with half a dozen people, including him, in an cafe (3rd WCCF) I never felt a desire to seek him out. I think that TeoZ is claiming that a lot of people would stop. Frankly, I don't agree that that is "most". BUT, I could accept it about Gary Kildall. Certainly, things would have turned out a lot different if IBM had gone with DR instead of MS, although I do NOT think that DR would have succeeded in introducing IBM to a "California" lifestyle. I talked with Gary a few times. He was a helluva nice guy. The one time that I remember was when I tried [UNSUCCESSFULLY] to convince him to define additional disk formats. I pointed out that machines were coming out without 8" drives, and asked him to define "the CP/M standard format of 5.25"". [no apologies to typesetters]. He said, "the standard format of CP/M remains 8" SSSD.". I said, "But, . . .". He repeated it. He was not going to budge. If he were to have specified such a standard (such as 10 * 256 *35 (Osborne, TRS80 I)), then XenoCopy would never have happened. I've heard from mutual acquaintances that his latter life was not happy. How much of that was contemplation of what might have been, and people obsessing at him about him blowing off IBM? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 12:12:55 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <8DB359867D804162B9EB19140DC496C7@dell8300> References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> <337EAF667BFC469D8806279797FA7446@dell8300> <8DB359867D804162B9EB19140DC496C7@dell8300> Message-ID: <20111012101113.L7495@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, TeoZ wrote: > [billg] > Most people are not ALL people. There are a few who want to die owning > everything (and figuring out a way to take it with them). >From what I've heard, billg has been STUDYING Carnegie - get it ALL, then give a lot back and buy your way into heaven. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 12:15:24 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94A8FE.12346.283F7E5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net>, <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com>, <20111011151116.Q45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E94A8FE.12346.283F7E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111012101314.O7495@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > [Kildall V IBM] > I wasn't there, so I can't say. But there's been a lot of apochrypha > about the meeting. For something that happened in [most of] our lifetimes, it is amazing how much inaccuracies and "opining about fact"s there is! > I worked on licensing an MP/M II OEM license with DRI for a client at > almost precisely the same time that the IBM incident occurred. I > found DRI to be very accommodating and friendly. They were not much like IBM. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Oct 12 12:46:11 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:46:11 -0500 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E95D263.4040206@vaxen.net> On 10/11/11 4:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> New Kensington, PA > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > Is that where those awesome trackballs are born? :) No, I believe Logitech is based in Washington State. Doc From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 12 13:00:02 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E95D263.4040206@vaxen.net> References: <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <4E943E6D.3040504@telegraphics.com.au> <4E948892.6000702@neurotica.com> <4E95D263.4040206@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 10/11/11 4:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire >>> New Kensington, PA >> ^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> Is that where those awesome trackballs are born? :) > > > No, I believe Logitech is based in Washington State. > *snort* I've YET to see a trackball from Logitech that wouldn't be better used as sling-shot ammo. :) They do make great mice though. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 14:19:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20111012121543.O7495@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Adam Sampson wrote: > designed the API to be similar to CP/M's to make porting easy, but he > built the guts of the OS from scratch. > His blog's worth reading, particularly the early articles: > http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/ In 1982?, Dr. Dobb's published an article that he wrote ("An Inside Look At MS-DOS"?) that talked about some of those issues. Also, about the same time Cortesi? wrote "CP/M-86 V MS-DOS"? that was a decent comparison of the internals. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 12 15:04:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:04:58 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111012121543.O7495@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111011104716.H45605@shell.lmi.net> <4E942961.8851.917C72@cclist.sydex.com> <20111011213053.GF29940@brevard.conman.org> <4E94B964.6070209@brouhaha.com> <20111012121543.O7495@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E95F2EA.30404@bitsavers.org> On 10/12/11 12:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Adam Sampson wrote: >> designed the API to be similar to CP/M's to make porting easy, but he >> built the guts of the OS from scratch. >> His blog's worth reading, particularly the early articles: >> http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/ > > In 1982?, Dr. Dobb's published an article that he wrote ("An Inside Look > At MS-DOS"?) that talked about some of those issues. > http://www.patersontech.com/dos/byte/insidedos.htm Byte June, 1983 > Also, about the same time Cortesi? wrote "CP/M-86 V MS-DOS"? that was a > decent comparison of the internals. > http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/toc/dr-dobbs-1980.html http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub//tex/bib/dr-dobbs-1980.html#Cortesi:1982:CMV Volume 7, Number 7, July, 1982 From shumaker at att.net Wed Oct 12 16:05:18 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:05:18 -0700 Subject: HP 7980 tape drive in WA Message-ID: <4E96010E.4030208@att.net> HP 7980 Tape drive in a cabinet Looks to be in good shape. Desc: "Turns on. cabinet locked" Located in Tumwater WA currently with 1 bidder at *$9.99* PublicSurplus.com item no: 624353 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 12 16:43:50 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:43:50 -0700 Subject: looking for Seagate ST-1096N Message-ID: <4E960A16.7040708@bitsavers.org> Trying to recover some data, and it looks like the logic board is dead. 80meg 3.5" SCSI Hoping not to have to buy the one on ebay for $128 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 12 16:19:01 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:19:01 +0100 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 7:56 PM Subject: Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > > Again with the "twilight zone" theme. These interfaces are on the > rise, in a roaring way, to a tremendous degree. Google Apps and their > ilk, GWT-based apps, AJAX, "Web 2.0" etc etc etc all fall under this > category. Everything is going that way. It is a huge, bloated, > bandwidth-wasting, cycle-wasting mess. > > Wow what a weird-ass thread. > > -Dave > I completely agree. Back in "the day" when you connected to a website, you just loaded the website code (HTML, PHP etc.) and images from the server/s hosting the website. Today you load all that, plus load adverts (usually flash-based) from other websites, connect to www.googleanalytics.com (or similar websites) and perhaps a few other sites too. Those of you on a fast connection may not notice it, but as I'm on dial-up (and have been for the last 10 years) I can actually see what is going on. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From trs80 at marmotking.com Wed Oct 12 16:55:13 2011 From: trs80 at marmotking.com (David J. Cooper) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:55:13 -0700 Subject: HP 7980 tape drive in WA In-Reply-To: <4E96010E.4030208@att.net> References: <4E96010E.4030208@att.net> Message-ID: <4A55BE132E554FA9A118B902F18FBED5@planetx> any idea as to what the interface is? is this scsi or hpib? -----Original Message----- From: steve shumaker Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 2:05 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: HP 7980 tape drive in WA HP 7980 Tape drive in a cabinet Looks to be in good shape. Desc: "Turns on. cabinet locked" Located in Tumwater WA currently with 1 bidder at *$9.99* PublicSurplus.com item no: 624353 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 15:43:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:43:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 11, 11 02:37:49 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote about the HP 1630 logic analyzer: > > the fact that the pods can only be > > disconnected after rmeoving a cover plate means that the pods are > unlikely > > to get spearated from the unit and lost, for example. > > Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the > value of what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do > in fact show up routinely without pods. Do they cut the pod cables or remove the cover and unplug them? And do they then lose the cover? Anyway, I thought one regualr here [1] has told us not to moan about the antics of scrap dealers and resellers... [1] The one who sent me on a wild goose chase recently... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 15:57:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:57:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Oct 11, 11 09:27:10 pm Message-ID: > > Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the value of > > what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do in fact show > > up routinely without pods. > > Seconded. Every single one I've run into at hamfests and swap meets is > missing the pods, software and documentation. Clueless &)(*^)^s I must be very lucky, then. The one I was given came with all 5 pods (already connected), the right input cables sets for the pods and a bag of grabber clips. Oh, and a US mains lead. The only original electrical part it was misisngw was an HPIL cable (apparently one was included as standard), but I've got a box of those, so no problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 16:01:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:01:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk In-Reply-To: <4E9500F8.8030203@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 11, 11 10:52:40 pm Message-ID: > Now, before people like Toby latch onto that and scream at me for > "hating GUIs" or "hating anything modern" or whatever people like to > push my buttons about, I LOVE GUIs, and I LOVE modern things. It's just > that I love the concept of "using the right tool for the job" even more. > If that tool happens to have been introduced to the world at an > earlier time than some other tool, then so be it, it's still the right > tool for the job. Period. > As an aside, there are 2 fundamental misconceptions that I see all the time : The fact that 'A' is better than 'B' for one application implies it must be better for _all_ applications. That fact that 'A' is bewer than 'B' means it must be better for all applications. We can all think of plenty of examples of that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 16:05:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:05:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk In-Reply-To: <4E94BD90.5020509@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Oct 11, 11 03:05:04 pm Message-ID: > If you want real Neanderthal views, I don't think that the X / gui > interface is useful. Real heads down data entry still doesn't work as > fast on anything PC unless it is emulating a good old fashioned terminal. Since an awful lot of what I do on a computer involves text entry (writing docuemntion, programming, etc), I am perfectly happly with a 'green screen' text display. I am very used to the 'virtual consoles' of linux, toggling between text screens. In fact when I use a windowng syastem, I often prefer to have the windos maximised, and then to toggle between them, rather than having several visible at a time. I guess it's what I am used to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 16:45:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:45:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E958C69.7000702@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 12, 11 07:47:37 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Thinking about it, Whitechapel's MG-1 had SCSI on the main PCB as standard > >> equipment, and that was in 1984, so a couple of years before the Mac Plus. > > > > Does it? I've jeust been through the schematics and I can't find any SCSI > > inerface. The hard disk interface is essentially ST412, but there's a > > connector allowing acces to the HDC chip pins which was going to be used > > for an SMD interface. Problem was, the DMA controller couldn;'t handle > > SMD data rates... > > You have me wondering now! I thought I remembered a Whitechapel ("MG-1 > type", i.e. not Hitech-era) machine with SCSI, but I'm not so sure *what* > exactly. There is no metnion of SCSI in the techncial manual The mainboard cotnaisn a uPD7261 chip, which is essentially a 'raw' disk controller often used with ST412 drives. The board also contins the support circuitry, linked ot the normal 34 pin and 20 pin headers. Much of the support circuitry is socketed so it can be removed, there's another header (not well documented in the manual) which conencted to the drive interface pins of the 7261. It was intended for use with an extenal data spearator board for SMD drives, but as the manual says, the system couldn't handle the data rate. I haev no idea how many pins this data separator connector has, maybe 50 pins. I don';t feel like dismantling my MG1 tonight either... > Going against that though, the wikipedia page (yeah, I know! :-) for the I think i trust the techncial manual and schematics more than I trust Wikipedia... -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 12 17:18:08 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:18:08 -0700 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: References: from "Steven Hirsch" at Oct 11, 11 09:27:10 pm, Message-ID: If anyone with one of those HP1630s with no pods lives reasonably close to Seattle, we should talk. I have a 1630G that I love (and I have all the pods) but the screen is starting to dim.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:57 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser > > Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the value of > > what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do in fact show > > up routinely without pods. > > Seconded. Every single one I've run into at hamfests and swap meets is > missing the pods, software and documentation. Clueless &)(*^)^s I must be very lucky, then. The one I was given came with all 5 pods (already connected), the right input cables sets for the pods and a bag of grabber clips. Oh, and a US mains lead. The only original electrical part it was misisngw was an HPIL cable (apparently one was included as standard), but I've got a box of those, so no problem. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:42:33 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:42:33 -0500 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9617D9.5030006@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> And there were a WHOLE LOT of NeXT machines sold. Many people (like >> apparently Will) haven't seen lots of them in the wild, I'm guessing because >> they just haven't been in the right places. Half of the country's colleges, >> and a little office building called The Pentagon were filled to overflowing >> with those machines. > > I have several. Who needs one? (I might have a Turbo Slab to spare, > but I'm keeping the Cube). Oh, I'd love one, but I suspect I can't afford it right now! I had a Cube and a mono Slab for a while, and they're fantastic little critters :-) Don't toss them out, anyway ;) cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:47:50 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:47:50 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9617D9.5030006@gmail.com> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> <4E9617D9.5030006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E961916.5060904@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Oh, I'd love one, but I suspect I can't afford it right now! I had a > Cube and a mono Slab for a while, and they're fantastic little critters :-) > > Don't toss them out, anyway ;) I've had a non-ADB soundbox on my wishlist for quite a while. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:55:50 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:55:50 -0500 Subject: ChromeOS - Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E95036E.3030200@neurotica.com> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> <4E94EC66.3060109@telegraphics.com.au> <4E94F8E6.6050306@neurotica.com> <4E95012C.8030506@telegraphics.com.au> <4E95036E.3030200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E961AF6.2000400@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Of course. I should point out that nobody actually USES it. This is your >>> idea of a supporting argument for "everything shall be a web app"? >> >> Not at all. I'm only pointing out that most things already are, > > Really. Like all those copies of Microsoft Office, iTunes, > Thunderbird...You are so totally off your rocker that, well, I wish I > could find it entertaining. *plonk* Heck, you just run them (probably in a VM) on some box "out there somewhere" with screen-scraping code to translate UI elements to/from a web format, then you simply throw more hardware at the problem until it's slightly less useful than the original product but hey it's all "webby" and therefore the iphone generation will absolutely love it... ;-) >> and perhaps it's not quite as technically awful as you make out. :) > > I guess it wouldn't be, if it...well, weren't. Perhaps I have higher > expectations, and I know what to use to have them met. Sigh... remember the good old days when the web didn't exist and the 'net was all about getting things done quickly and efficiently? cheers Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:57:47 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:57:47 -0700 Subject: HP 7980 tape drive in WA In-Reply-To: <4A55BE132E554FA9A118B902F18FBED5@planetx> References: <4E96010E.4030208@att.net> <4A55BE132E554FA9A118B902F18FBED5@planetx> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 2:55 PM, David J. Cooper wrote: > any idea as to what the interface is? ?is this scsi or hpib? > I think it could be either. The 7980A was HP-IB, the 7980S was SCSI. Here's an HP Journal article on the drive: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1988-06.pdf A few years back I picked up an HP-IB 7980A from Ft. Lewis (govliquidation) in the same cabinet as the one in the current auction. I gave that drive away since it had problems and wouldn't load a tape correctly. Still have that cabinet though. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 18:08:31 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:08:31 -0300 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser References: from "Steven Hirsch" at Oct 11, 11 09:27:10 pm, Message-ID: <32BF259B03B64AC8BCE9143911437802@portajara> > If anyone with one of those HP1630s with no pods lives reasonably close to > Seattle, we should talk. I have a 1630G that I love (and I have all the > pods) but the screen is starting to dim.... -- Ian Do you still use it, Ian? It would be cheaper (and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better to use, since is a newer instrument with more support and tools) to get a 16500A/B/C (C recommended). CRTs are incredibily expensive in USA. In Brazil they are so cheap... Since this is a monochrome tube, you can use mostly any monochrome tube that fits its place, incluiding B/W televisions and old computer monitors. Been there, done that. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 18:14:44 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:14:44 -0700 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Ian King wrote: > If anyone with one of those HP1630s with no pods lives reasonably close to Seattle, we should talk. ?I have a 1630G that I love (and I have all the pods) but the screen is starting to dim.... ?-- Ian I have an HP 54201D logic triggered scope. I wonder how much it shares in common with the HP 1630 series logic analyzers? The cases and front panels look basically the same. The 54201D comes with (3x) 10271A PODs, same as used by the 1630 series. This site as some nice pictures and info: http://azur-electronics.com/hp_1630d.aspx http://azur-electronics.com/operating_hp_1630d.aspx I have never used an HP 1630 series. I have used the 16500 and 16700 series. Just picked up my first 16900 series today. Need to install a hard drive before I can try it out. (Ian, if your 1630 dies and you might be interested in a 16500B or a 16700A send me an email off list and maybe would could work out a deal locally. I have some I don't really need.) -Glen From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 12 18:32:45 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:32:45 -0700 Subject: ChromeOS - use of VM / GUI / remote (way off topic) In-Reply-To: <4E961AF6.2000400@gmail.com> References: <1318299269.79869.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E948974.7070308@neurotica.com> <4E94EC66.3060109@telegraphics.com.au> <4E94F8E6.6050306@neurotica.com> <4E95012C.8030506@telegraphics.com.au> <4E95036E.3030200@neurotica.com> <4E961AF6.2000400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E96239D.9090409@jwsss.com> On 10/12/2011 3:55 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Heck, you just run them (probably in a VM) on some box "out there > somewhere" with screen-scraping code to translate UI elements to/from > a web format, The use of the referred to gui programs via remote access is not useful to me. The latency even if local is too much. I use vnc directly, the "web" version of virtualization is not very useful as other than a cute trick. The thing I do do remotely is run systems on esx vm servers. I also am working on a system which will export terminal sessions to a java based web browser. Not because it is useful, but because it can jump a lot of network obstacles such as firewalls with its traffic conduit. way off topic, sorry to continue diverging. From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 18:52:59 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the value of >>> what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do in fact show >>> up routinely without pods. >> >> Seconded. Every single one I've run into at hamfests and swap meets is >> missing the pods, software and documentation. Clueless &)(*^)^s > > I must be very lucky, then. The one I was given came with all 5 pods > (already connected), the right input cables sets for the pods and a bag > of grabber clips. Oh, and a US mains lead. The only original electrical > part it was misisngw was an HPIL cable (apparently one was included as > standard), but I've got a box of those, so no problem. You lead a charmed life, Tony! -- From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 12 19:57:27 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:57:27 -0400 Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E963777.60103@telegraphics.com.au> On 12/10/11 5:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Now, before people like Toby latch onto that and scream at me for >> "hating GUIs" or "hating anything modern" or whatever people like to >> push my buttons about, I LOVE GUIs, and I LOVE modern things. It's just >> that I love the concept of "using the right tool for the job" even more. >> If that tool happens to have been introduced to the world at an >> earlier time than some other tool, then so be it, it's still the right >> tool for the job. Period. >> > > As an aside, there are 2 fundamental misconceptions that I see all the > time : > > The fact that 'A' is better than 'B' for one application implies it must > be better for _all_ applications. But I haven't said anywhere that the web is 'better' than anything else in particular. Just that it's decently useful, and maybe not quite as horrible as Dave makes out. Here you are, Dave - This just in, via the World Wide Web: http://www.quora.com/How-has-the-world-changed-since-Quora-users-were-born/answer/Garrick-Saito --T > > That fact that 'A' is bewer than 'B' means it must be better for all > applications. > > We can all think of plenty of examples of that... > > -tony > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 12 19:59:30 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:59:30 -0400 Subject: Thread is now officially done - Re: X11 In-Reply-To: <07D02627-D72F-4395-91FD-B534E0180C3F@comcast.net> References: <07D02627-D72F-4395-91FD-B534E0180C3F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E9637F2.6050903@telegraphics.com.au> On 12/10/11 10:51 AM, CRC wrote: > > > I guess xkcd citation really *is* the new Godwin's Law. --T From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:00:03 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:00:03 -0500 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110111412.p9BECfoI085207@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <201110110113.p9B1DSgm018526@floodgap.com> <201110111412.p9BECfoI085207@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E963813.80808@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > And I bet a doughnut that "remote server" is a virtual appliance, What, like an imaginary toaster? :-) From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:10:01 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 03:10:01 +0200 Subject: X11 In-Reply-To: <07D02627-D72F-4395-91FD-B534E0180C3F@comcast.net> References: <07D02627-D72F-4395-91FD-B534E0180C3F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 16:51, CRC wrote: > > > http://ifttt.com/recipes/5131 -- Stephane FreeDonne help scientific and medical research. Join FreeDonne. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 12 20:25:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:25:57 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E963813.80808@gmail.com> References: <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au>, <201110111412.p9BECfoI085207@billy.ezwind.net>, <4E963813.80808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E95DBB5.10941.2298F8C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Oct 2011 at 20:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > John Foust wrote: > > And I bet a doughnut that "remote server" is a virtual appliance, > > What, like an imaginary toaster? Invisible refrigerator. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 12 20:37:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:37:21 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died Message-ID: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation of UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. RIP, Dennis Ritchie. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 20:46:58 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:46:58 -0700 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn Message-ID: hey Im getting a used lj 4000tn off a friend of mine soon and i want to be ready is the parallel port on the back a standard ieee 1284 or a hpcn36 mini centronics gotta make sure i have the right adaper cable to usb because my newer amd xp comp does not have a pp port thanx chris From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 12 21:08:25 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E95DBB5.10941.2298F8C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au>, <201110111412.p9BECfoI085207@billy.ezwind.net>, <4E963813.80808@gmail.com> <4E95DBB5.10941.2298F8C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Oct 2011 at 20:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> John Foust wrote: >>> And I bet a doughnut that "remote server" is a virtual appliance, >> >> What, like an imaginary toaster? > > Invisible refrigerator. Schrodinger's stove? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 12 21:55:29 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:55:29 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died Message-ID: <4E965321.9040703@snarc.net> https://plus.google.com/u/0/101960720994009339267/posts/ENuEDDYfvKP?hl=en Bad week for computer visionaries. :( From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 12 21:58:12 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:58:12 -0700 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: <32BF259B03B64AC8BCE9143911437802@portajara> References: from "Steven Hirsch" at Oct 11, 11 09:27:10 pm, , <32BF259B03B64AC8BCE9143911437802@portajara> Message-ID: Maybe I should visit Brazil and buy a new CRT. :-) I use it for a number of reasons: I have it and it works; I am familiar with it and it works; it's the same vintage as the systems on which I use it; and *it works*. The tube still has some life to it, but before everyone throws away their "useless," podless 1630s, I figured I should fish for spares.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas [pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 4:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser > If anyone with one of those HP1630s with no pods lives reasonably close to > Seattle, we should talk. I have a 1630G that I love (and I have all the > pods) but the screen is starting to dim.... -- Ian Do you still use it, Ian? It would be cheaper (and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better to use, since is a newer instrument with more support and tools) to get a 16500A/B/C (C recommended). CRTs are incredibily expensive in USA. In Brazil they are so cheap... Since this is a monochrome tube, you can use mostly any monochrome tube that fits its place, incluiding B/W televisions and old computer monitors. Been there, done that. From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 12 22:05:39 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:05:39 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Jobs died - that was a shame. With Ritchie's passing, I'm truly saddened to my core. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 6:37 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation of UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. RIP, Dennis Ritchie. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 22:14:47 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:14:47 -0500 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: References: <32BF259B03B64AC8BCE9143911437802@portajara> Message-ID: I'd be willing to part with mine, but shipping fron 61853 might be high. Paul On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:58 PM, Ian King wrote: > Maybe I should visit Brazil and buy a new CRT. ?:-) ?I use it for a number of reasons: I have it and it works; I am familiar with it and it works; it's the same vintage as the systems on which I use it; and *it works*. ?The tube still has some life to it, but before everyone throws away their "useless," podless 1630s, I figured I should fish for spares.... ?-- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas [pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 4:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser > >> If anyone with one of those HP1630s with no pods lives reasonably close to >> Seattle, we should talk. ?I have a 1630G that I love (and I have all the >> pods) but the screen is starting to dim.... ?-- Ian > > ? ?Do you still use it, Ian? It would be cheaper (and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY > better to use, since is a newer instrument with more support and tools) to > get a 16500A/B/C (C recommended). CRTs are incredibily expensive in USA. In > Brazil they are so cheap... > > ? ?Since this is a monochrome tube, you can use mostly any monochrome tube > that fits its place, incluiding B/W televisions and old computer monitors. > Been there, done that. > > > > From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 22:15:03 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:15:03 -0500 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> At 08:46 PM 10/12/2011, you wrote: >hey >Im getting a used lj 4000tn off a friend of mine soon and i want to be ready >is the parallel port on the back a standard ieee 1284 or a hpcn36 mini >centronics >gotta make sure i have the right adaper cable to usb because my newer amd xp >comp does not have a pp port >thanx >chris The N in the 4000TN is for "network." Use Ethernet-- is much more better. 439 . [Humor] I like this new idea of voodoo acupuncture. You don't have to go anywhere, you just walk down the street, and all of a sudden, "Ah!" --Steven Wright NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 22:31:10 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:31:10 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E965B7E.5080700@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation of > UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. > > RIP, Dennis Ritchie. Wow, that sucks. Peace... Sridhar From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 22:44:15 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:44:15 -0700 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> References: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: but what can i do i only have one rj45 ethnet port on the back of my mobo (asus m2r32-mvp ) and my modem cable(dlink dsl 3000i) is already going in there is there like a plug in pigtail rj45 adapter i can buy so i can have 2 going into one sorry for all the stupid questions chris On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Tom wrote: > At 08:46 PM 10/12/2011, you wrote: > >> hey >> Im getting a used lj 4000tn off a friend of mine soon and i want to be >> ready >> is the parallel port on the back a standard ieee 1284 or a hpcn36 mini >> centronics >> gotta make sure i have the right adaper cable to usb because my newer amd >> xp >> comp does not have a pp port >> thanx >> chris >> > > The N in the 4000TN is for "network." Use Ethernet-- is much more better. > > > > 439 . [Humor] I like this new idea of voodoo acupuncture. You don't have to > go anywhere, you just walk down the street, and all of a sudden, "Ah!" > --Steven Wright > NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc > LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User > 385531 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 12 22:50:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:50:48 -0400 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: References: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E966018.6050808@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2011 11:44 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > but what can i do i only have one rj45 ethnet port on the back of my mobo > (asus m2r32-mvp ) and my modem cable(dlink dsl 3000i) is already going in > there is there like a plug in pigtail rj45 adapter i can buy so i can have 2 > going into one You really don't have an Ethernet switch? Cheap-o home-grade Ethernet switches are really...well, cheap-o. Go to your nearest BestBuy and score one, problem solved. Connecting printers directly to computers is pretty gross anyway. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 12 23:32:12 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:32:12 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E965B7E.5080700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/11 8:31 PM, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation of >> UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. >> >> RIP, Dennis Ritchie. > > Wow, that sucks. > > Peace... Sridhar #include main() { printf("Rest in peace Dennis, you will be missed"); return 1; } From oe5ewl at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 01:04:52 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:04:52 +0200 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> References: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > > > Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the value of what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do in fact show up routinely without pods. Same situation here (Austria). I'm looking for an affordable analyzer for quite some time already, but often run into units without pods. Not really useful, at least for me. I don't need a high spec analyzer, but I do need pods with it. Regards, Wolfgang From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 13 01:08:21 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:08:21 +0200 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 08:05:39PM -0700, Ian King wrote: > Jobs died - that was a shame. With Ritchie's passing, I'm truly saddened to my core. -- Ian Aye! Rest in peace DMR. I took the time to find my favourite snippet of C-code. I think someone on this list introduced me to it. Put this in main() and compile: for(int i=0;i<14;i++) putchar(i["hello world\n"]); Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) Do you have a favourite c construct? Do share! (even ioccc entries allowed) Regards, Pontus From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 13 01:18:12 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:18:12 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Oct 12, at 8:05 PM, Ian King wrote: > Jobs died - that was a shame. With Ritchie's passing, I'm truly > saddened to my core. -- Ian I assume the pun is intended (and appropriate). (My apologies if I am merely commenting on the obvious). From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 13 01:35:47 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:35:47 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E9686C3.1030401@jwsss.com> On 10/12/2011 11:08 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 08:05:39PM -0700, Ian King wrote: >> Jobs died - that was a shame. With Ritchie's passing, I'm truly saddened to my core. -- Ian > Aye! Rest in peace DMR. > > I took the time to find my favourite snippet of C-code. I think someone > on this list introduced me to it. Put this in main() and compile: > > for(int i=0;i<14;i++) > putchar(i["hello world\n"]); > > Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) > > Do you have a favourite c construct? Do share! (even ioccc entries > allowed) > > Regards, > Pontus A friend of his and mine on G+ posted this: Barry Shein - I'm personally saddened by this news. I've known Dennis for a long time. Before I was involved in Usenix etc he would drop by at Boston University where I was a grad student, he was a good friend of Professor Joyce Friedman there, they knew each other when they were in grad school at Harvard so we'd all go out. I remember a couple of years later I got roped into doing a presentation at DECUS, my first computer conference, and Dennis was also there for the recognition of the 15th anniversary of the Unix operating system. Both of us pretty much didn't know anyone there so we hung out and found dinner etc. Over the years we'd run into each other at Usenix and hang out, occasionally exchange email particularly on how dopey something was like some technical flame fest on usenet or some mailing list. When I founded The World in 1989 he sent an email message to msgs at world.std.com which meant it posted so that everyone logging in would see it. something we actually allowed back then!: From uunet!research.att.com!dmr Tue Oct 17 03:35:50 1989 Subject: printf "Hello, world.std.com!\n" Dennis Ritchie --- He will be missed. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 13 04:07:07 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:07:07 +0200 Subject: HP 7980 tape drive in WA In-Reply-To: References: <4E96010E.4030208@att.net> <4A55BE132E554FA9A118B902F18FBED5@planetx> Message-ID: <001101cc8987$7f02c520$7d084f60$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Glen Slick > Verzonden: donderdag 13 oktober 2011 0:58 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP 7980 tape drive in WA > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 2:55 PM, David J. Cooper > wrote: > > any idea as to what the interface is? ?is this scsi or hpib? > > > > I think it could be either. The 7980A was HP-IB, the 7980S was SCSI. > > Here's an HP Journal article on the drive: > http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1988-06.pdf > > A few years back I picked up an HP-IB 7980A from Ft. Lewis > (govliquidation) in the same cabinet as the one in the current auction. I gave > that drive away since it had problems and wouldn't load a tape correctly. Still > have that cabinet though. I got mine for nop, and it did not auto load correctly too. But after a good clean and letting the motors run for a while on my bench psu (cleaning the collector and brushes), it is loading correctly now. These drives are very robust and you can change the complete configuration on the front panel. Mine has a HP-IB interface very handy with all the other HP-stuff I have ;-) The service manuals are available at the hpmuseum.net site. -Rik From gyorpb at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 04:27:02 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:27:02 +0200 Subject: Today's web is full of crap (was: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4E96AEE6.5080604@gmail.com> On 2011-10-12 23:19, Andrew Burton wrote: > Back in "the day" when you connected to a website, you just loaded the > website code (HTML, PHP etc.) and images from the server/s hosting the > website. Today you load all that, plus load adverts (usually flash-based) > from other websites, connect towww.googleanalytics.com (or similar > websites) and perhaps a few other sites too. Those of you on a fast > connection may not notice it, but as I'm on dial-up (and have been for the > last 10 years) I can actually see what is going on. Do yourself a favour: .tsooJ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 13 06:43:24 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:43:24 -0400 Subject: Ethernet switches - Re: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: <4E966018.6050808@neurotica.com> References: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> <4E966018.6050808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E96CEDC.2030501@telegraphics.com.au> On 12/10/11 11:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/12/2011 11:44 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: >> but what can i do i only have one rj45 ethnet port on the back of my mobo >> (asus m2r32-mvp ) and my modem cable(dlink dsl 3000i) is already going in >> there is there like a plug in pigtail rj45 adapter i can buy so i can >> have 2 >> going into one > > You really don't have an Ethernet switch? Cheap-o home-grade Ethernet > switches are really...well, cheap-o. Go to your nearest BestBuy and > score one, problem solved. Connecting printers directly to computers is > pretty gross anyway. Last week I grabbed a 50-port Netgear 10/100 out of the dumpster at work and there's another smaller one sitting in there now. So yeah, not very expensive. --Toby > > -Dave > From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 06:53:51 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:53:51 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation of > UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. > > RIP, Dennis Ritchie. > > "When I read commentary about suggestions for where C should go, I often think back and give thanks that it wasn't developed under the advice of a worldwide crowd. " - Dennis Ritchie RIP Dennis Ritchie From spedraja at ono.com Thu Oct 13 08:32:30 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:32:30 +0200 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: As I told in other message, I'm shocked. I consider DMR one of the most influential persons of the past century... and this one. And I am almost sure that you will not see his face in the news and one comment about his legacy, direct and indirect, terminating (by now) in Linux. And this is one of the moments when perhaps someone in the Governments but in the Computing and Science fields could have a detail with his memory. Rest in peace. Sergio 2011/10/13 Dave McGuire > > Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation of > UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. > > RIP, Dennis Ritchie. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 08:58:57 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:58:57 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E96EEA1.3090004@gmail.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 08:05:39PM -0700, Ian King wrote: >> Jobs died - that was a shame. With Ritchie's passing, I'm truly saddened to my core. -- Ian > > Aye! Rest in peace DMR. > > I took the time to find my favourite snippet of C-code. I think someone > on this list introduced me to it. Put this in main() and compile: > > for(int i=0;i<14;i++) > putchar(i["hello world\n"]); > > Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) > > Do you have a favourite c construct? Do share! (even ioccc entries > allowed) I have two actually. One is, indeed, an IOCCC entry. It's 1984/Mullender. Extremely creative. The second is Duff's Device. Peace... Sridhar From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 13 09:03:27 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:03:27 +0200 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E96EEA1.3090004@gmail.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E96EEA1.3090004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111013140327.GA6317@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:58:57AM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I have two actually. One is, indeed, an IOCCC entry. It's > 1984/Mullender. Extremely creative. I think of it as my favourite IOCCC entry, whether it is C or not is up for debate :) > The second is Duff's Device. Now that is a fun and useful construct :) Regards, Pontus. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 13 09:12:04 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation of > UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. > > RIP, Dennis Ritchie. > Now THIS guy is a great loss. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 13 09:16:19 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: References: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Chris Halarewich wrote: > but what can i do i only have one rj45 ethnet port on the back of my mobo > (asus m2r32-mvp ) and my modem cable(dlink dsl 3000i) is already going in > there is there like a plug in pigtail rj45 adapter i can buy so i can have 2 > going into one > Get a switch. Plug computer into switch. Plug printer into switch. Plug dsl device into switch. Enjoy. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Oct 13 09:26:15 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:26:15 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> On 10/13/2011 2:08 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Do you have a favourite c construct? Do share! (even ioccc entries > allowed) While it is more trivia than anything else: A man with more than one window open, say browser and C editor, accidentally pastes a URL into the white space in the middle of his C source code. The source code previously compiled fine. He goes to recompile it, what happens? Does it compile? Why or why not? Thought it was cute. Keith From ray at arachelian.com Thu Oct 13 09:27:58 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:27:58 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> On 10/12/2011 05:19 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Back in "the day" when you connected to a website, you just loaded the > website code (HTML, PHP etc.) and images from the server/s hosting the > website. Today you load all that, plus load adverts (usually flash-based) > from other websites, connect to www.googleanalytics.com (or similar > websites) and perhaps a few other sites too. Those of you on a fast > connection may not notice it, but as I'm on dial-up (and have been for the > last 10 years) I can actually see what is going on. That's what AdBlock+, NoScript, and Ghostery are for. Install them, and block all that trash without mercy. From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Oct 13 09:31:35 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:31:35 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1318516295.31453.9.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Thu, 2011-10-13 at 10:26 -0400, Keith M wrote: > On 10/13/2011 2:08 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > Do you have a favourite c construct? Do share! (even ioccc entries > > allowed) > > While it is more trivia than anything else: > > A man with more than one window open, say browser and C editor, > accidentally pastes a URL into the white space in the middle of his C > source code. The source code previously compiled fine. > > He goes to recompile it, what happens? > > Does it compile? Why or why not? > > Thought it was cute. > Is it a C99 compiler? > Keith From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 09:42:06 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:42:06 -0400 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: References: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Monoprice is your friend for extra-cheap Ethernet switches. 8-port 10/100Mbs switch for $9. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 13 09:45:11 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:45:11 +0200 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20111013144511.GB6317@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:26:15AM -0400, Keith M wrote: > While it is more trivia than anything else: > > A man with more than one window open, say browser and C editor, > accidentally pastes a URL into the white space in the middle of his > C source code. The source code previously compiled fine. > > He goes to recompile it, what happens? > > Does it compile? Why or why not? Assuming the URL starts with HTTP:// he effectively put a label called "HTTP" somewhere. and everyting after // is a comment. Soo, as long as noone gotoes to http, he should be fine :) > Thought it was cute. I like it :) /P From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 13 09:50:24 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:50:24 -0500 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: References: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> At 09:16 AM 10/13/2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >Get a switch. Plug computer into switch. Plug printer into switch. Plug dsl device into switch. Enjoy. Well... many DSL and cable modems in the USA are only equipped to hand out DHCP to only one device, and will not talk to devices plugged-in after that. If it has only one network port, it probably will only talk to one device. If it has four ports, it is no doubt a modem plus a firewall/router, and will support four devices. - John From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Oct 13 09:51:07 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:51:07 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <039a01cc89b7$8addbd70$a0993850$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation > of UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. > > RIP, Dennis Ritchie. > > -Dave Profoundly sad. Most of my professional career depends on C. The horrid signal-to-noise ratio on what's left of usenet probably contributed to his death. May fleets of magtape laden station wagons escort you to your rest. Bill From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Oct 13 09:52:12 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:52:12 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <1318516295.31453.9.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> <1318516295.31453.9.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4E96FB1C.70209@verizon.net> On 10/13/2011 10:31 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Thu, 2011-10-13 at 10:26 -0400, Keith M wrote: >> On 10/13/2011 2:08 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >>> Do you have a favourite c construct? Do share! (even ioccc entries >>> allowed) >> >> While it is more trivia than anything else: >> >> A man with more than one window open, say browser and C editor, >> accidentally pastes a URL into the white space in the middle of his C >> source code. The source code previously compiled fine. >> >> He goes to recompile it, what happens? >> >> Does it compile? Why or why not? >> >> Thought it was cute. >> > > Is it a C99 compiler? > > Don't ask hard questions. :) Yes, I believe it technically needs to be. Practically speaking, I'm not sure it matters with any modern(even some leeway, I know where I'm posting) C compiler. :) Keith From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 13 10:05:56 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:05:56 -0400 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:50:24 CDT.) <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20111013150556.94EFCACF8C3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Well... many DSL and cable modems in the USA are only equipped to hand > out DHCP to only one device, and will not talk to devices plugged-in > after that. If it has only one network port, it probably will only talk > to one device. If it has four ports, it is no doubt a modem plus a > firewall/router, and will support four devices. I suppose since I haven't met anywhere near all the DSL and cable providers in the US, that I could be wrong, but... this sounds like a grievous misunderstanding of the common "one external IP address" service. The device will hand you more than one internal IP. If it's equipped with one port and not doing NAT, then it is expecting you to supply a firewall device, not to plug directly into it. The firewall device will then do NAT and hand you multiple internal addresses. De From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 13 10:43:11 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:43:11 -0500 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: <20111013150556.94EFCACF8C3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> <20111013150556.94EFCACF8C3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201110131543.p9DFhILa086932@billy.ezwind.net> At 10:05 AM 10/13/2011, Dennis Boone wrote: >grievous misunderstanding of the common "one external IP address" >service. The device will hand you more than one internal IP. If it's >equipped with one port and not doing NAT, then it is expecting you to >supply a firewall device, not to plug directly into it. The firewall >device will then do NAT and hand you multiple internal addresses. Yeah, well, the modem will still only bind to one MAC address until you power-cycle them, and they'll still only hand out one address via DHCP, and it'll be a 192.168.1.xxx. Go figure. This is true for the ATT DSL and Charter Cable modems I see in my area. Arguably it simplifies the situation for the one modem, one computer user. It doesn't let you simply add a switch to connect multiple devices. It lets the ISP upsell the consumer to a four-port combo firewall/router/wireless/modem. Even if you buy the business-class small-set-of-statics service, I've yet to see either ISP properly deliver and configure a modem that actually hands out those real statics. At that point they figure you're either smart enough to do it yourself, or smart enough to demand that the installer do you a favor. After all, there's still the option of whether you want it to use DHCP to do it. - John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 11:16:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:16:11 -0700 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> References: , <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 10:27, Ray Arachelian wrote: > That's what AdBlock+, NoScript, and Ghostery are for. Install them, > and block all that trash without mercy. There are also published lists of HOSTS entries that simply raedirect to localhosts or 0.0.0.0. Browser-independent. Does anyone know of a DNS lookup utility that accepts HOSTS entries with wildcards? e.g., *.doubleclick.net Windoze or *nix versions, doesn't matter. --Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Oct 13 11:23:19 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:23:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DNS utilities; was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone know of a DNS lookup utility that accepts HOSTS entries > with wildcards? e.g., *.doubleclick.net Windoze or *nix versions, > doesn't matter. Do you mean a utility that will return all the records in the doubleclick.net. domain? You can do that with dig, but mere mortals are usually forbidden from doing zone transfers by the DNS server due to the potential for abuse. Alexey From ray at arachelian.com Thu Oct 13 12:10:19 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:10:19 -0400 Subject: blocking ads (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> On 10/13/2011 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2011 at 10:27, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> That's what AdBlock+, NoScript, and Ghostery are for. Install them, >> and block all that trash without mercy. > There are also published lists of HOSTS entries that simply raedirect > to localhosts or 0.0.0.0. Browser-independent. > > Does anyone know of a DNS lookup utility that accepts HOSTS entries > with wildcards? e.g., *.doubleclick.net Windoze or *nix versions, > doesn't matter. Which is why it's better to let your browser plugins do the work for you. Blocking *.doubleclick.net/* from within AdBlock+ is trivial to constantly doing nslookup for whatever the hosts are and adding them to /etc/hosts. Since you bring up browser independent, I wonder if there's some way to export these lists to something that squid understands? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 12:10:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:10:47 -0700 Subject: DNS utilities; was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: , <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E96B927.20781.3E03CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 16:23, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > Do you mean a utility that will return all the records in the > doubleclick.net. domain? You can do that with dig, but mere mortals > are usually forbidden from doing zone transfers by the DNS server due > to the potential for abuse. I don't want to return all the records in the domain; I want to map all of the references to a specific domain or subdomain to something else. So, in other words,I'd like to map all doubleclick.net records to 127.0.0.1. There did exist a utilitiy for Windows 4.0 that would do that, but I've forgotten the name. It probably won't work on newer systems. It would seem that such a thing would be trivial to implement, but I haven't been able to find it available. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 13 12:14:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, John Foust wrote: > At 09:16 AM 10/13/2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Get a switch. Plug computer into switch. Plug printer into switch. Plug dsl device into switch. Enjoy. > > > Well... many DSL and cable modems in the USA are only equipped to hand out DHCP > to only one device, and will not talk to devices plugged-in after that. > If it has only one network port, it probably will only talk to one device. > If it has four ports, it is no doubt a modem plus a firewall/router, and > will support four devices. > Well the assumption being that if he's hanging out here, he knows these things. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Oct 13 12:18:09 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:18:09 -0400 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: <201110131543.p9DFhILa086932@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> <20111013150556.94EFCACF8C3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201110131543.p9DFhILa086932@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E971D51.5020706@verizon.net> On 10/13/2011 11:43 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 10:05 AM 10/13/2011, Dennis Boone wrote: >> grievous misunderstanding of the common "one external IP address" >> service. The device will hand you more than one internal IP. If it's >> equipped with one port and not doing NAT, then it is expecting you to >> supply a firewall device, not to plug directly into it. The firewall >> device will then do NAT and hand you multiple internal addresses. > > Yeah, well, the modem will still only bind to one MAC address until you > power-cycle them, and they'll still only hand out one address via > DHCP, and it'll be a 192.168.1.xxx. Go figure. This is true for > the ATT DSL and Charter Cable modems I see in my area. > > Arguably it simplifies the situation for the one modem, one computer > user. It doesn't let you simply add a switch to connect multiple > devices. It lets the ISP upsell the consumer to a four-port > combo firewall/router/wireless/modem. Verizon(both DSL and FIOS) and Comcast(cable modem) who are the predominant carriers in my area give out wireless *routers* standard and have done so for at least 5 or 6 years. There are no more DSL *modems* or cable *modems* that operate like you suggest. If I go back about 10 years, yes, Adelphia(before bought by Comcast) would pass out cable modems. My parents got DSL about 8 years + ago, and the initial device was in fact a router. So the routers, performing the NAT, pass out multiple internal 192.168.x.x/24 (RFC 1918 addresses) and then translate to the single external IP address assigned via DHCP if it's cable service, and PPPoEoA if it's ADSL. You can't natively attach directly to the cable port (because it's coax), or the ADSL port (because, well, it's ADSL) and so the modem functionality is directly built into the routers. In FIOS installations that give you native RJ-45 ethernet ports (what I have, much better than the damn moca connections), the behavior is as you describe. If you connect directly to the ONT (optical network terminal), a single external IP address assigned and locked to your MAC via DHCP. However, every FIOS installation comes with a free router (and required for use with moca, unless you have a moca->ethernet bridge) and always have. I had FIOS access within three weeks of them pulling the single-mode fiber down my street. The days of the ISPs trying to upsell a router(or wireless router) are long gone. Consumers now-a-days demand wireless routers standard. Keith From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Oct 13 12:18:55 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:18:55 -0400 Subject: Sending documents to bitsavers? Message-ID: <1318526335.31453.23.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Hey all! I recently followed up on a 4 year old comp.os.vms posting about the DEC InfoServer Local Area Disks protocol and in the process I managed to get a copy of the spec as well as a couple of other related ones. How would I submit these pdfs to bitsavers so they don't get lost to time? Thanks! Brian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:19:44 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:19:44 -0700 Subject: HP 7980 tape drive in WA In-Reply-To: <001101cc8987$7f02c520$7d084f60$@xs4all.nl> References: <4E96010E.4030208@att.net>, <4A55BE132E554FA9A118B902F18FBED5@planetx>, , <001101cc8987$7f02c520$7d084f60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: HP 7980 tape drive in WA > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:07:07 +0200 > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > > Namens Glen Slick > > Verzonden: donderdag 13 oktober 2011 0:58 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: Re: HP 7980 tape drive in WA > > > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 2:55 PM, David J. Cooper > > wrote: > > > any idea as to what the interface is? is this scsi or hpib? > > > > > > > I think it could be either. The 7980A was HP-IB, the 7980S was SCSI. > > > > Here's an HP Journal article on the drive: > > http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1988-06.pdf > > > > A few years back I picked up an HP-IB 7980A from Ft. Lewis > > (govliquidation) in the same cabinet as the one in the current auction. I > gave > > that drive away since it had problems and wouldn't load a tape correctly. > Still > > have that cabinet though. > > I got mine for nop, and it did not auto load correctly too. > But after a good clean and letting the motors run for a while on my bench > psu (cleaning the collector and brushes), it is loading correctly now. > These drives are very robust and you can change the complete configuration > on the front panel. > Mine has a HP-IB interface very handy with all the other HP-stuff I have ;-) > The service manuals are available at the hpmuseum.net site. > > -Rik Hi Just curious, is this basically the cypher drive with HPs GP-IB added or truly an HP design? Dwight From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:28:16 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:28:16 -0400 Subject: blocking ads (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> References: <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 10/13/2011 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Which is why it's better to let your browser plugins do the work for > you. Blocking *.doubleclick.net/* from within AdBlock+ is trivial to > constantly doing nslookup for whatever the hosts are and adding them to > /etc/hosts. > > Since you bring up browser independent, I wonder if there's some way to > export these lists to something that squid understands? > There's also SpyBot Search+Destroy for windows - a free malware scanner that optionally modifies your Windows host file to include blacklists for hundreds of malware and tracking sites. I'm not 100% sure it blocks ad sites, I don't think it does, but after running SpyBot and NoScript in Firefox I simply don't get any malware anymore. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 12:34:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:34:34 -0700 Subject: blocking ads (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> References: , <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E96BEBA.10139.53CA9F@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 13:10, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Which is why it's better to let your browser plugins do the work for > you. Blocking *.doubleclick.net/* from within AdBlock+ is trivial to > constantly doing nslookup for whatever the hosts are and adding them > to /etc/hosts. I do use AdBlock+ on Firefox. Opera's ad blocking isn't quite as good (I use Opera on older systems); for example, AdBlock for Opera doesn't block google ads. Ad blocker plugins are fine if you're using a browser, but how about, say, wget or any non-browser application that references web pages? --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Oct 13 13:07:59 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:07:59 -0400 Subject: blocking ads (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> References: , <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E9728FF.4080001@verizon.net> On 10/13/2011 1:10 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 10/13/2011 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 13 Oct 2011 at 10:27, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> >>> That's what AdBlock+, NoScript, and Ghostery are for. Install them, >>> and block all that trash without mercy. >> There are also published lists of HOSTS entries that simply raedirect >> to localhosts or 0.0.0.0. Browser-independent. >> >> Does anyone know of a DNS lookup utility that accepts HOSTS entries >> with wildcards? e.g., *.doubleclick.net Windoze or *nix versions, >> doesn't matter. > > Which is why it's better to let your browser plugins do the work for > you. Blocking *.doubleclick.net/* from within AdBlock+ is trivial to > constantly doing nslookup for whatever the hosts are and adding them to > /etc/hosts. I can vouch for Adblock+ and NoScript. Adblock+ is truly great and truly transparent. You won't even know its there --- you just wont see any more ads. Manually adding blocks is easy. NoScript gets installed and uninstalled frequently. I love it when it works, and I hate it when it gets in the way. It's great for the "right-click" blocking sites. Keith From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 13:09:05 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:09:05 -0700 Subject: Sending documents to bitsavers? In-Reply-To: <1318526335.31453.23.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1318526335.31453.23.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4E972941.6050406@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/11 10:18 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > How would I submit these pdfs to bitsavers they are up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/infoserver From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 13 13:11:26 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:11:26 -0500 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: <4E971D51.5020706@verizon.net> References: <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> <20111013150556.94EFCACF8C3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201110131543.p9DFhILa086932@billy.ezwind.net> <4E971D51.5020706@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201110131812.p9DICUQl092896@billy.ezwind.net> At 12:18 PM 10/13/2011, Keith M wrote: >Verizon(both DSL and FIOS) and Comcast(cable modem) who are the predominant carriers in my area give out wireless *routers* standard and have done so for at least 5 or 6 years. Can't quite tell if you are refuting me or confirming how it is in your area. I assure you, in SE WI, it is as I describe. Yes, a device that NATs and includes a DSL or cable modem should properly be called a modem/router and I presume they aren't doing anything firewall-ish like actual protection. Walk into any Walmart, ask for a DSL modem, they'll sell you a $55 gizmo with an ATT logo on the box. Maybe we're a backwater that won't have fiber to the home for another decade, but fresh squeaky cheese curds are $4-5 a pound. ATT U-Verse is only available in cherry-picked areas of Milwaukee, Madison, and parts of the Fox Valley. >The days of the ISPs trying to upsell a router(or wireless router) are long gone. Consumers now-a-days demand wireless routers standard. Could be the case in your area. I assure you, as recently as this month, ATT (n? Wisconsin Bell, n? SBC) will ship a non-wireless one-MAC router/modem when you order low-end DSL. The wireless 4-port is an extra-cost option. - John From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Oct 13 13:23:40 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:23:40 -0400 Subject: Sending documents to bitsavers? In-Reply-To: <4E972941.6050406@bitsavers.org> References: <1318526335.31453.23.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <4E972941.6050406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1318530221.31453.36.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Aha, I was looking for dec/infoserver rather than dec/vax/infoserver. Thanks Brian On Thu, 2011-10-13 at 11:09 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/13/11 10:18 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > How would I submit these pdfs to bitsavers > > they are up under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/infoserver > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 13:46:13 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:46:13 -0700 Subject: HP 7980 tape drive in WA In-Reply-To: References: <4E96010E.4030208@att.net> <4A55BE132E554FA9A118B902F18FBED5@planetx> <001101cc8987$7f02c520$7d084f60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:19 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Just curious, is this basically the cypher drive with HPs GP-IB added or > truly an HP design? > Dwight > I doubt HP would publish two journal articles on the 7980 drive if it was not their own design. http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1988-06.pdf Hewlett-Packard Journal, June 1988, Volume 39, Number 3 A Reliable, Autoloading, Streaming Half-Inch Tape Drive by John W. Dong, Kraig A. Proehl, Ronald L. Abramson, Leslie G. Christie, Jr., Douglas R. Domel Streaming Tape Drive Control Electronics by Bradfred W. Gulp, Douglas R. Domel, Wayne T. Gregory, Jeffery J. Kato, Gerod C. Melton, Kraig A. Proehl, David W. Ruska, Virgil K. Russon, and Peter Way From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 13:57:41 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:57:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Trackballs (was Re: Web as generic UI, remote computing service ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1639811919.458985.1318532261569.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 5 >Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:00:02 -0700 (PDT) >From: Gene Buckle >On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> On 10/11/11 4:24 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>> -- >>>> Dave McGuire >>>> New Kensington, PA >>> ^^^^^^^^^^ >>> >>> Is that where those awesome trackballs are born? :) >> >> >> ?No, I believe Logitech is based in Washington State. >> >*snort* ?I've YET to see a trackball from Logitech that wouldn't be better >used as sling-shot ammo. :) ?They do make great mice though. :) > >g. > Get one of these: 2-1/4" Trackball with USB and PS/2 Interface, from Suzo-Happ ( http://na.suzohapp.com/trackballs/565600xx.htm ) and a couple of pushbuttons ( http://na.suzohapp.com/pushbuttons/539200xx.htm ) and build a case for the parts. These trackballs and pushbuttons are made for arcade game consoles and are super-rugged. I used them in exhibits at the Field Museum in Chicago and used one at work for 10+ years without any problems. The track balls are not cheap ($183), but are rock-solid. Bob From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:55:00 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:55:00 -0400 Subject: DNS utilities; was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E96B927.20781.3E03CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E96B927.20781.3E03CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E974214.4000307@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't want to return all the records in the domain; I want to map > all of the references to a specific domain or subdomain to something > else. So, in other words,I'd like to map all doubleclick.net > records to 127.0.0.1. > > There did exist a utilitiy for Windows 4.0 that would do that, but > I've forgotten the name. It probably won't work on newer systems. > > It would seem that such a thing would be trivial to implement, but I > haven't been able to find it available. Just run your own local nameserver and create an authoritative zone file for the domain you want to blackhole. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 15:14:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:14:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Oct 13, 11 08:08:21 am Message-ID: > for(int i=0;i<14;i++) > putchar(i["hello world\n"]); > > Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) What's to 'work out'? The argument to putchar looks a bit odd, but IIRC, A[i] is a shorthand for *(A+i), and addition is commutitive (even when it involves pointers). So that's just indexing an array of chracters (the string constant) using i. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 14:55:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:55:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Oct 12, 11 03:18:08 pm Message-ID: > > If anyone with one of those HP1630s with no pods lives reasonably > close to Seattle, we should talk. I have a 1630G that I love (and I > have all the pods) but the screen is starting to dim.... -- Ian As I am sure you know, the display on the HP1630 is a raster-scanned CRT monitor. There's conventional-ish video circuitry on the CPU board, using a 6845 as the iming chain. The monitor itself seems to have been 'bought in', not designed by HP. It's the only section for which there isn't a schematic in the service manual (No, I don't have this on paper, but you can download it fro mthe Agilent web site [1] :-)). The monitor looks conventional too. A dism dispaly is most likely to be a failing CRT, but it could be one of the electrode votlages falling. That reminds me -- I should measure and record the voltages in my 1630 to use as a reference if I ever have display problems. When I do this I can post the results so you can see if yours are at elast reasonable. I assume you've done the obvious, namely cleaned the screen. Sorry, but that caught me once... There are some presets o nthe monitor CPB, and those are documetned in the service manual. Some instruments have separate brightness presets for nromal and half-bright text, others have just one control. There's a procedure for setting them up in the manual which needs a photometer (!), but it then goes on to say that if you don't have such an instrument, just do it so it looks good :-). I suspect tweaking these presets might get a bit more life out of an old CRT. If you do need to replace the CRT, cmall monochrome tubes are pretty generic. If it'll fit, has the right deflection angle (90 degrees I think) and heate voltage (most likely 12V or so) then it'll work. I'd ratehr take a CRT from a CCTV monitor or something than raid an HP1630 for parts. [1] YEs, I do prefer manuals on paper, but a web-based manual is much, much better than no manual at all. Agilent should be aplauded for supporting their old instruments in this way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 14:56:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:56:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Web as generic UI, remote computing service - Re: Let's talk In-Reply-To: <4E963777.60103@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Oct 12, 11 08:57:27 pm Message-ID: > > As an aside, there are 2 fundamental misconceptions that I see all the > > time : > > > > The fact that 'A' is better than 'B' for one application implies it must > > be better for _all_ applications. > > But I haven't said anywhere that the web is 'better' than anything else > in particular. Just that it's decently useful, and maybe not quite as > horrible as Dave makes out. That's why I said 'as an aside', I meant that I am not commenting directly on the message, but rahter this is somethign that came to mind as being relevant. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 14:59:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:59:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 12, 11 09:37:21 pm Message-ID: > > > Dennis Ritchie, co-creator of C and heavily involved in the creation > of UNIX, has died. He was 70, and he was one of my heroes. > > RIP, Dennis Ritchie. I am very sorry to hear that. I am sure he won't get the media hype that followed the passing of Steve Jobs last week, but I am also sure that dmr had a much greater influence on the sort of computing that I am interested in than Steve Jobs did. :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 15:07:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:07:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Oct 12, 11 07:58:12 pm Message-ID: > but before everyone throws away their "useless," podless 1630s, I > figured I should fish for spares.... -- Ian Are podless ones 'useless'? OK, the original HP pods contain a ceramic thick-film hybrid circuit, but the interface to the analyser is differneital 10K series ECL signals. And while the genuine pods have adjustable threhsolds 9which complciates matters a lot), I suspect you could make TTL-only pods using 10124 interface ICs. I can't rememebr what power voltages are on the pod conenctors, but you can take +5V from the BNC o nthe rear of the instruemtn if you have to. I did somethign similar for my first logic analyser, a Gould K100D which came podless. Still use it... -tony From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 13 15:48:21 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:48:21 -0500 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Oct 13, 11 08:08:21 am, Message-ID: You have always been a jerk Tony, and you are not that clever. Today of all days. Any c snippet is welcome. > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: Dennis Ritchie has died > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:14:34 +0100 > > > for(int i=0;i<14;i++) > > putchar(i["hello world\n"]); > > > > Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) > > What's to 'work out'? The argument to putchar looks a bit odd, but IIRC, > A[i] is a shorthand for *(A+i), and addition is commutitive (even when it > involves pointers). So that's just indexing an array of chracters (the > string constant) using i. > > -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 13 15:49:27 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trackballs (was Re: Web as generic UI, remote computing service ) In-Reply-To: <1639811919.458985.1318532261569.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1639811919.458985.1318532261569.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > > >>>>> -- >>>>> Dave McGuire >>>>> New Kensington, PA >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^ >>>> >>>> Is that where those awesome trackballs are born? :) >>> >>> >>> ?No, I believe Logitech is based in Washington State. >>> >> *snort* ?I've YET to see a trackball from Logitech that wouldn't be better >> used as sling-shot ammo. :) ?They do make great mice though. :) >> >> g. >> > > > Get one of these: 2-1/4" Trackball with USB and PS/2 Interface, from > Suzo-Happ ( http://na.suzohapp.com/trackballs/565600xx.htm ) and a > couple of pushbuttons ( http://na.suzohapp.com/pushbuttons/539200xx.htm > ) and build a case for the parts. These trackballs and pushbuttons are > made for arcade game consoles and are super-rugged. I used them in > exhibits at the Field Museum in Chicago and used one at work for 10+ > years without any problems. The track balls are not cheap ($183), but > are rock-solid. If I was going to build myself a Centipede cabinet, that would be my first choice. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 13 15:51:33 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:51:33 +0200 Subject: HP 7980 tape drive in WA In-Reply-To: References: <4E96010E.4030208@att.net>, <4A55BE132E554FA9A118B902F18FBED5@planetx>, , <001101cc8987$7f02c520$7d084f60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001b01cc89e9$e7a112a0$b6e337e0$@xs4all.nl> > Hi > Just curious, is this basically the cypher drive with HPs GP-IB added or truly an > HP design? > Dwight It's a HP design, all over including HP part numbering ;-) -Rik From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 16:03:30 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:03:30 -0400 Subject: Cool car! Message-ID: Here is a pretty cool story about stuff found in the middle of nowhere: http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2011/10/10/One-of-the-Rarest-Cars-in-the-World-Unearthed-in-California-Barnyard-7705178/ -- Will From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Oct 13 16:06:25 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:06:25 +0200 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: References: <4E94B72D.5060309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20111013230625.1fa79cde.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:04:52 +0200 Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > Same situation here (Austria). I'm looking for an affordable analyzer for > quite some time already, but often run into units without pods. In 1998 I got may hands on a Dolch Logic Instruments LAM4850A logic analyzer. -- Without pods, das usual. I phoned the support of the company and eventually a kind person emailed me the pinout of the pod connectors. Basicly it was -5.2 V and 5 V ECL / TTL supply voltage, threshold voltage, GND and four differential ECL inputs for the signals. I ordered the last dozend TTL to ECL level shifter ICs that a supplier had in stock and build my own pods. Now I am limited to (LS)TTL imput levels, but that is all I need. Maybe somthing similar is possible for the HP units. BTW: I am looking for active probes for my HP 54720D DSO. I have three 54712A Y-plugins with fixed 50 Ohm inputs. Probes like the 54701A are available, but to expensive at around US$ 150. I can build something myself, but I need schematics. Designing somthing that can do an impedance transformation fom 1 MOhm to 50 Ohm at DC to at least 1 GHz is far bejond my skils. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 16:28:45 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool car! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318541325.58322.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 10/13/11, William Donzelli wrote: > Here is a pretty cool story about > stuff found in the middle of nowhere: > > http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2011/10/10/One-of-the-Rarest-Cars-in-the-World-Unearthed-in-California-Barnyard-7705178/ Hehe. And an 11/60 just hiding off to the side... -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 16:31:02 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:31:02 -0700 Subject: Cool car! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E975896.9050204@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/11 2:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Here is a pretty cool story about stuff found in the middle of nowhere: > > http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2011/10/10/One-of-the-Rarest-Cars-in-the-World-Unearthed-in-California-Barnyard-7705178/ > So who got the 11/60 sitting next to it? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 16:34:25 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:34:25 -0400 Subject: Cool car! In-Reply-To: <1318541325.58322.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1318541325.58322.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Hehe. And an 11/60 just hiding off to the side... You won. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 16:41:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:41:54 -0700 Subject: Trackballs (was Re: Web as generic UI, remote computing service ) In-Reply-To: References: <1639811919.458985.1318532261569.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, Message-ID: <4E96F8B2.24325.1363A46@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 13:49, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > > Get one of these: 2-1/4" Trackball with USB and PS/2 Interface, from > > Suzo-Happ ( http://na.suzohapp.com/trackballs/565600xx.htm ) and a > > couple of pushbuttons ( > > http://na.suzohapp.com/pushbuttons/539200xx.htm ) and build a case > > for the parts. These trackballs and pushbuttons are made for arcade > > game consoles and are super-rugged. I used them in exhibits at the > > Field Museum in Chicago and used one at work for 10+ years without > > any problems. The track balls are not cheap ($183), but are > > rock-solid. > > If I was going to build myself a Centipede cabinet, that would be my > first choice. :) I've got a couple of CH trackballs that I've used for years. One is a model that can be configured for a variety of systems: http://www.chproducts.com/oem/trackballs.html I'll swear the the ball is a standard billiard ball. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 13 16:45:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20111013143947.E60254@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Keith M wrote: > While it is more trivia than anything else: > A man with more than one window open, say browser and C editor, > accidentally pastes a URL into the white space in the middle of his C > source code. The source code previously compiled fine. > He goes to recompile it, what happens? > Does it compile? Why or why not? > Thought it was cute. You said "into the white space". You did NOT say on its own line of white space. On original K&R C compilers, it'll give a syntax error. On newfangled C compilers that corrupt the C concept of white space, the "//" will turn everything else on that line into part of the comment. stuff whitespace stuff becomes stuff whitespace comment In a previous comment Kernighan would format xxxx(yyy) { zzzz; } Ritchie woukld format xxxx(yyy) { zzzz; } From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 13 16:47:51 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:47:51 -0700 Subject: Cool car! In-Reply-To: References: <1318541325.58322.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E975C87.1090406@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/11 2:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Hehe. And an 11/60 just hiding off to the side... > > You won. > there are some better pictures of the computers in other stories http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2011/10/barn-find-1955-alloy-body-mercedes-benz-sl300-gullwing-shows-up-in-santa-monica.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 13 16:55:15 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:55:15 +0100 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <00ce01cc89f3$df4fd0f0$b00578d5@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > On 10/12/2011 05:19 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > Back in "the day" when you connected to a website, you just loaded the > > website code (HTML, PHP etc.) and images from the server/s hosting the > > website. Today you load all that, plus load adverts (usually flash-based) > > from other websites, connect to www.googleanalytics.com (or similar > > websites) and perhaps a few other sites too. Those of you on a fast > > connection may not notice it, but as I'm on dial-up (and have been for the > > last 10 years) I can actually see what is going on. > > That's what AdBlock+, NoScript, and Ghostery are for. Install them, and > block all that trash without mercy. It's a shame they don't come built-in to browsers ;) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 13 16:47:58 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:47:58 +0100 Subject: Today's web is full of crap (was: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) References: <4E933FC2.8080301@neurotica.com> <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E96AEE6.5080604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00cd01cc89f3$ddbde650$b00578d5@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joost van de Griek" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 10:27 AM Subject: Today's web is full of crap (was: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) > On 2011-10-12 23:19, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > Back in "the day" when you connected to a website, you just loaded the > > website code (HTML, PHP etc.) and images from the server/s hosting the > > website. Today you load all that, plus load adverts (usually flash-based) > > from other websites, connect towww.googleanalytics.com (or similar > > websites) and perhaps a few other sites too. Those of you on a fast > > connection may not notice it, but as I'm on dial-up (and have been for the > > last 10 years) I can actually see what is going on. > > Do yourself a favour: > > .tsooJ Thanks, that is great. I'll install it over the weekend :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Oct 13 18:00:52 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:00:52 -0400 Subject: Cool car! Message-ID: Tom and the other Caltechies spoke many times of his 300SL but I had never seen it until now. I had however seen and helped move Tom's -11's many many times back and forth and around Pasadena :-). Somehow I knew, just seeing the subject line, that this would be about Tom's 300SL. Tim. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 18:02:27 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:02:27 -0500 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E976E03.9020604@gmail.com> Keith M wrote: > On 10/13/2011 2:08 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> Do you have a favourite c construct? Do share! (even ioccc entries >> allowed) > > While it is more trivia than anything else: > > A man with more than one window open, say browser and C editor, > accidentally pastes a URL into the white space in the middle of his C > source code. The source code previously compiled fine. > > He goes to recompile it, what happens? > > Does it compile? Why or why not? I think it depends. On whitespace on a line all by itself, it should work. But if the whitespace is within a statement or function call then it could fail if code ends up commented out, e.g. printf("hello\n" ); ... paste a URL into that and the compiler will get confused :-) Aside: I recall encountering one C compiler which didn't handle nested comments - if you had a "/*"-style comment within a "//"-style one, it'd barf. I think it may have been an early (I mean, 1990s) version of gcc. Creating a file called "*foo.html" and then accessing it via firefox and apache as "http://localhost/*foo.html" works, although I'm not sure if it's technically a legal URL or not :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 18:16:57 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:16:57 -0500 Subject: blocking ads (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E9728FF.4080001@verizon.net> References: , <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> <4E9728FF.4080001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E977169.5060404@gmail.com> Keith M wrote: > I can vouch for Adblock+ and NoScript. Adblock+ is truly great and > truly transparent. You won't even know its there --- you just wont see > any more ads. Manually adding blocks is easy. Horribly OT, but I keep wondering about the overhead of that. There must be some grunt-work involved just to see if a URL matches something in its block list, however minor. With the enormous list of sites / domains that it must have to filter these days, that overhead *might* be noticeable to a user (vs. what it would be like if there weren't the offending items in the source markup in the first place). I suspect there might be times where it has to do some access to the remote site too just to maintain layout, even if it's not passing all of the resulting data back to the user (e.g. downloading an image, querying the dimensions, and passing a 'blank' generated image of the same size to the calling process) I wonder what the first instance of paid advertising was? ISTR doing the whole "adding stuff to /etc/hosts to filter it out" somewhere around the mid-90s, but that concept got old fast as more sites hopped on the ad bandwagon. I had a web proxy that I'd written for a job too, so I recall tweaking that to do some filtering against the main sites that I accessed. cheers Jules From a50mhzham at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 18:41:16 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:41:16 -0500 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: <201110131543.p9DFhILa086932@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> <20111013150556.94EFCACF8C3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201110131543.p9DFhILa086932@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4e977706.e2c4e70a.6b47.ffff8a59@mx.google.com> At 10:43 AM 10/13/2011, you wrote: >At 10:05 AM 10/13/2011, Dennis Boone wrote: > >grievous misunderstanding of the common "one external IP address" > >service. The device will hand you more than one internal IP. If it's > >equipped with one port and not doing NAT, then it is expecting you to > >supply a firewall device, not to plug directly into it. The firewall > >device will then do NAT and hand you multiple internal addresses. > >Yeah, well, the modem will still only bind to one MAC address until you >power-cycle them, and they'll still only hand out one address via >DHCP, and it'll be a 192.168.1.xxx. Go figure. This is true for >the ATT DSL and Charter Cable modems I see in my area. Um, this boy is on ATT DSL and plugged my 16-port 10/100/1000 Netgear switch right into my AT&T-supplied DSL modem widget and voila! All the internal IP addresses one could ever want. I even have a Linux server handing out a different range of addresses and there's no interference-- the DSL modem gets there first. >Arguably it simplifies the situation for the one modem, one computer >user. It doesn't let you simply add a switch to connect multiple >devices. It lets the ISP upsell the consumer to a four-port >combo firewall/router/wireless/modem. A very large number, a majority I would guess, of DSL modems and cable modems have an internal DHCP server to hand out IP addresses and keep track of them. I have quite a selection of old Lucent types, Actiontec, and many other kinds from previous ISPs and those that were given to me. They all seem to have most of the features a router should have, except that the firewalls in some of them are pretty weak and not very flexible. Of course, my experience is limited to the mid-West and the cable and DSL providers one finds hereabouts. >Even if you buy the business-class small-set-of-statics service, >I've yet to see either ISP properly deliver and configure a modem >that actually hands out those real statics. At that point they >figure you're either smart enough to do it yourself, or smart enough >to demand that the installer do you a favor. After all, there's still >the option of whether you want it to use DHCP to do it. How did we get onto a discussion of static addresses? That's on the outside of your network, and yes, the ISP has to provide it and yes they will charge you a bunch of money for it. I used to have one, for many years, until they proposed raising the rate beyond what I found reasonable. If you want static IP addresses inside your network, that's fine, do it. Just manually configure the address, mask, and gateway on each device, and off you go. Even on the printer, there's ways to do it, using the buttons, or using the menu to print the current address, then using a web client or telnet to that address. >- John 967 . Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. -- Andy Rooney NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 18:55:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:55:08 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111013143947.E60254@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net>, <20111013143947.E60254@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 14:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > You said "into the white space". You did NOT say on its own line of > white space. On original K&R C compilers, it'll give a syntax error. > On newfangled C compilers that corrupt the C concept of white space, > the "//" will turn everything else on that line into part of the > comment. Back when Dennis was posting his puzzles on Usenet, the assumptions were K&R C. "//" comments did not exist and there were be puzzles posted with lexical gotchas such as division by a dereferenced pointer. (a=b/*p and the like). There were also answers that were "Undefined", which really bugged me about C as a language. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 13 18:55:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:55:42 -0400 Subject: I feel stupid here lj 4000tn In-Reply-To: <4e977706.e2c4e70a.6b47.ffff8a59@mx.google.com> References: <201110131450.p9DEooFU084335@billy.ezwind.net> <4e9657bc.8be6e70a.6a97.fffff09c@mx.google.com> <20111013150556.94EFCACF8C3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201110131543.p9DFhILa086932@billy.ezwind.net> <4e977706.e2c4e70a.6b47.ffff8a59@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E977A7E.1070103@neurotica.com> On 10/13/2011 07:41 PM, Tom wrote: > How did we get onto a discussion of static addresses? That's on the > outside of your network, and yes, the ISP has to provide it and yes they > will charge you a bunch of money for it. I used to have one, for many > years, until they proposed raising the rate beyond what I found reasonable. I pay less than $3/mo/addr for my block of addresses. It's not really that bad anymore. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 13 19:12:52 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:12:52 -0400 Subject: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net>, <20111013143947.E60254@shell.lmi.net> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/10/11 7:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2011 at 14:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> You said "into the white space". You did NOT say on its own line of >> white space. On original K&R C compilers, it'll give a syntax error. >> On newfangled C compilers that corrupt the C concept of white space, >> the "//" will turn everything else on that line into part of the >> comment. > > Back when Dennis was posting his puzzles on Usenet, the assumptions > were K&R C. "//" comments did not exist and there were be puzzles > posted with lexical gotchas such as division by a dereferenced > pointer. (a=b/*p and the like). > > There were also answers that were "Undefined", which really bugged > me about C as a language. There are reasons for that. http://blog.regehr.org/archives/213 > > --Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 13 19:21:09 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net>, <20111013143947.E60254@shell.lmi.net> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111013170900.X60254@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were also answers that were "Undefined", which really bugged > me about C as a language. Part of what made C truly powerful was flexibility of implementation. If your machine would work better with 18 bit integers instead of 16, then you could do so. The downside, of course was extreme frustration when you encountered a lack of rigidity on things such as what 32767 + 1 was going to do, which increment would occur first on n=3; A[n++] = n++; (is that A[3]=3; A[3]=4; A[4]=3; or A[4]=4;?, yet while(*T++=*S++); would work!), etc. You really didn't have the safety of a padded play area like certain other languages. If you wanted to shoot yourself in the foot, C would give you unlimited rope. Attempting to make use of YOUR compiler's behavior in an "undefined" situation was foolish. What SHOULD happen if you divide by 0? (few compilers could implement a black hole) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 19:37:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:37:41 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111013170900.X60254@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111013170900.X60254@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9721E5.32094.1D72AC6@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 17:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > Attempting to make use of YOUR compiler's behavior in an "undefined" > situation was foolish. What SHOULD happen if you divide by 0? (few > compilers could implement a black hole) An awful lot of the "undefined" behavior was due to the unary operators ++ and --. For example, the behavior of : func( a++,++a,a) was undefined. From a FORTRAN compiler writer's viewpoint, this was horrible, even if it was a good match for some instruction sets.. It was surprising (from my viewpoint) to witness how long it took to get a genuine ANSI formalization of the behavior. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 19:50:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:50:54 -0700 Subject: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 20:12, Toby Thain wrote: > There are reasons for that. > > http://blog.regehr.org/archives/213 Yes, I know--and have known this for at least 30 years, when Dennis pointed it out. C started off as a sort of "cheap and dirty in leiu of assembly" language. I was surprised that someone would bother to formalize it. I can well imagine that the first ANSI committe used lots of Excedrin. I know that was the case for ANSI PL/I--a co-worker was on the committe on that one and if you asked him how the work was going, he'd just shake his head. --Chuck From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 20:18:51 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie: The shoulders Stave Jobs stood on In-Reply-To: <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E96F507.8000801@verizon.net>, <20111013143947.E60254@shell.lmi.net> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1318555131.17498.YahooMailNeo@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I thought you gentlemen would like http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/10/thedennisritchieeffect/ From useddec at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 22:39:46 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:39:46 -0500 Subject: Cool car! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: P300 or 600 next to it? Paul On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 4:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Here is a pretty cool story about stuff found in the middle of nowhere: > > http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2011/10/10/One-of-the-Rarest-Cars-in-the-World-Unearthed-in-California-Barnyard-7705178/ > > -- > Will > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Oct 13 22:58:44 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:58:44 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E852EF8.4020001@mail.msu.edu> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl> <006401cc7ee5$d53bd320$7fb37960$@xs4all.nl> <4E84E2E8.9040505@att.net> <4E852EF8.4020001@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E97B374.8070705@mail.msu.edu> On 9/29/2011 7:52 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > I snagged these, and I have a rig set up to archive 8" floppies -- > I'll definitely be making images of them. I'll let you know! > > Josh > The disks arrived yesterday and I attempted to make disk images of them, the ones I was able to read are in IMD format at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/altos/ Some neat stuff, a copy of BDS-C, COBOL-80 and MBASIC for the Altos. I am not having much luck capturing images of the CP/M disks, however. They appear to be single-sided, double-density. The first two tracks are SD and have 26 sectors per track, the rest are DD and have 48 sectors/track which is where my system appears to have trouble, ImageDisk just won't read the DD tracks. If anyone has any suggestions, let me know. Otherwise, I'll dig my Altos out of the closet and code up a simple utility to dump the disks over the serial port... eventually. Josh From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 13 23:30:42 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:30:42 -0400 Subject: Printer, was Re: Cool car! In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:39:46 CDT.) References: Message-ID: <20111014043042.A8921AD0BF2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > P300 or 600 next to it? Not a Printronix. Those look like this: http://www.fib.upc.edu/retroinformatica/exposicio/ordinadors/Printronix-P600/mainColumnParagraphs/0/image/IMG_2158%20%28Custom%29.JPG Since there's an 11/60 in the image as well, this is probably a DEC LP25. A photo of the one that was at DEFCON 17: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/3796488999_d3bafb02e7.jpg We had something that was likely the OEM version of the LP25 in our Prime shop years ago. Band printer, 600 LPM (or maybe 450 with the mixed case chain), iirc. I can't remember who the OEM was, though. De From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 23:53:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:53:42 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E97B374.8070705@mail.msu.edu> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E852EF8.4020001@mail.msu.edu>, <4E97B374.8070705@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 20:58, Josh Dersch wrote: > Some neat stuff, a copy of BDS-C, COBOL-80 and MBASIC for the Altos. > I am not having much luck capturing images of the CP/M disks, however. > They appear to be single-sided, double-density. The first two tracks > are SD and have 26 sectors per track, the rest are DD and have 48 > sectors/track which is where my system appears to have trouble, > ImageDisk just won't read the DD tracks. If anyone has any > suggestions, let me know. It's your controller. Those sectors are MFM and 128 bytes long. You *can* read these with a controller that uses the National Semi DP8473 controller. NEC and Intel pretty much screwed up 128 byte MFM sectors. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Thu Oct 13 23:54:50 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:54:50 -0500 Subject: PS2Encoder PCBs available Message-ID: <4E97C09A.3080301@jbrain.com> PS2Encoder (http://www.go4retro.com/2011/03/11/micro-project-ps2encoder/) PCBs have arrived. I had planned to offer as just a PCB and a kit option, but if folks are interested in an assembled version, I'd like to know. It looks like the PCB is $5.00, a PCB + a AVR + the minidin6 = $16.00, and a complete kit is $21.00. An assembled unit looks to add ~ 5.00 to the price. Please let me know if you have any interest in any of the options. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Oct 14 00:09:17 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:09:17 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E852EF8.4020001@mail.msu.edu>, <4E97B374.8070705@mail.msu.edu> <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> On 10/13/2011 9:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2011 at 20:58, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Some neat stuff, a copy of BDS-C, COBOL-80 and MBASIC for the Altos. >> I am not having much luck capturing images of the CP/M disks, however. >> They appear to be single-sided, double-density. The first two tracks >> are SD and have 26 sectors per track, the rest are DD and have 48 >> sectors/track which is where my system appears to have trouble, >> ImageDisk just won't read the DD tracks. If anyone has any >> suggestions, let me know. > It's your controller. Those sectors are MFM and 128 bytes long. > > You *can* read these with a controller that uses the National Semi > DP8473 controller. NEC and Intel pretty much screwed up 128 byte MFM > sectors. > > --Chuck > Nuts. I have an Adaptec AHA-1542C in my machine which I've had very good luck with thus far. I guess I'll keep my eyes open for a board that uses this controller... - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 00:27:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:27:27 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E9765CF.25580.2E07294@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2011 at 22:09, Josh Dersch wrote: > Nuts. I have an Adaptec AHA-1542C in my machine which I've had very > good luck with thus far. I guess I'll keep my eyes open for a board > that uses this controller... A lot of Ultrastor, DTC and Future Domain controllers use it. If you have one of the DTK Mini-micro floppy controllers, you'll find it there as well. I'm going to assume that Dave didn't write any code that special- cased and eliminated 128 byte MFM sectors. 22Disk can handle them, but I don't believe that we left the Altos definition in because of the special-need controller. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 00:35:54 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:35:54 -0500 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini Message-ID: We have had a successful mission with the Sperry minicomputer pickup. We dodged the rain showers and successfully loaded a ~5' rack and two Fujitsu tape drives into two vehicles, then broke for dinner. Here are pics from today, with more to come of internal bits: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/Sperry1200Pickup# The machine appears to be an Arete' 1200, although badged as a Sperry on the front. Research suggests it is equivalent to a Sperry 5000/80 machine. It is a Motorola 68000-based UNIX minicomputer. This one appears to have two CPU boards (each with a 68020 processor,) a few RAM boards for a total of 30MB of RAM, and is missing all of its storage. The drives it used seem to be SMD interfaced but we're not sure what it had originally as there are external and internal connectors. Two Fujitsu 9-track tape drives, model M2444AC, came with the Sperry and we assume they were used with it, too. They are heavy! Here is some information on the Sperry 5000 line. Truly a unique machine! http://www.porterdavis.org/computing/sperry.html -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 14 01:13:54 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:13:54 +0200 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:14:34PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > for(int i=0;i<14;i++) > > putchar(i["hello world\n"]); > > > > Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) > > What's to 'work out'? The argument to putchar looks a bit odd, but IIRC, > A[i] is a shorthand for *(A+i), and addition is commutitive (even when it > involves pointers). So that's just indexing an array of chracters (the > string constant) using i. Hey Tony, cut me some slack. Not all C programmers will recall(or even know to begin with) that A[i] is shorthand for *(A+1). I learned it through this example. Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp position? Regards, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 14 01:37:27 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:37:27 +0200 Subject: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 05:50:54PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, I know--and have known this for at least 30 years, when Dennis > pointed it out. C started off as a sort of "cheap and dirty in leiu > of assembly" language. This reminds me of the quote in my .plan: "Some people seem to think that C is a real programming language, but they are sadly mistaken. It really is about writing almost-portable assembly language" -- Linus Torvalds For me, that is a spot on description of what C is. /P From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Oct 14 06:28:58 2011 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 04:28:58 -0700 Subject: the G5 that roared was Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110091444.p99Eihrl021372@floodgap.com> References: <201110091444.p99Eihrl021372@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <16A8056E-FD6A-459B-80BA-3414C00177C1@eoni.com> On Oct 9, 2011, at 7:44 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > When I'm building stuff (it is the "buildbot" for TenFourFox) Heh.... Go figure. Been using it on my G4 and G5 for about a year(?) Now I find an acquaintance's name on it. Thank you. It works well. Still on Pt. Loma? Jim From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 07:36:38 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:36:38 -0500 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E982CD6.3060601@gmail.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: > > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > position? Dump core and run away? :-) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 14 07:56:44 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:56:44 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/11 2:13 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:14:34PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >>> for(int i=0;i<14;i++) >>> putchar(i["hello world\n"]); >>> >>> Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) >> >> What's to 'work out'? The argument to putchar looks a bit odd, but IIRC, >> A[i] is a shorthand for *(A+i), and addition is commutitive (even when it >> involves pointers). So that's just indexing an array of chracters (the >> string constant) using i. > > Hey Tony, cut me some slack. Not all C programmers will recall(or even > know to begin with) that A[i] is shorthand for *(A+1). I learned it > through this example. > > Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: The example *above* doesn't require reading any standards; it's basic C usage and is in K&R 1. It would be hard to read or write C in any serious way without having internalised things like this. (Because both constructs are common.) > > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > position? iirc, you would avoid using any auto (stack) variables that were in scope. --Toby > > Regards, > Pontus. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 14 08:28:41 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:28:41 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/11 2:37 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 05:50:54PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yes, I know--and have known this for at least 30 years, when Dennis >> pointed it out. C started off as a sort of "cheap and dirty in leiu >> of assembly" language. > > This reminds me of the quote in my .plan: > > "Some people seem to think that C is a real programming language, but > they are sadly mistaken. It really is about writing almost-portable > assembly language" -- Linus Torvalds > > For me, that is a spot on description of what C is. While some disagree with the "portable assembler" characterisation, at C's level, it is indeed a language for micromanagers. Many people don't seem to appreciate that it's not ideal for most problems above the infrastructural/system level. It can't hurt to learn it but it can hurt to use it for the wrong problems (applies equally to C++).* An analogy may help. If your problem is "a room for the night," sometimes it's better not to begin by digging the foundations for a hotel.? --Toby (longtime C programmer) * - don't make it your go-to language! (har har) ? - I'm sure the same arguments were made against *assembler* while C became popular (during 1980s). > > /P > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 14 09:27:39 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:27:39 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 08:56:44AM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: > >Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: > > The example *above* doesn't require reading any standards; it's > basic C usage and is in K&R 1. It would be hard to read or write C > in any serious way without having internalised things like this. > (Because both constructs are common.) You might be right and I just haven't coded enough C to have internalised that thing. > >What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > >position? > > iirc, you would avoid using any auto (stack) variables that were in scope. Yes, so what is left to do? /P From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 09:29:28 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the G5 that roared was Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <16A8056E-FD6A-459B-80BA-3414C00177C1@eoni.com> from Jim Arnott at "Oct 14, 11 04:28:58 am" Message-ID: <201110141429.p9EETSa8013270@floodgap.com> > > When I'm building stuff (it is the "buildbot" for TenFourFox) > > Heh.... Go figure. Been using it on my G4 and G5 for about a year(?) > Now I find an acquaintance's name on it. > > Thank you. It works well. > > Still on Pt. Loma? Oh, no, haven't been on their network in years (I left full-time employ in 1999 and consultancy in 2003). I don't even know who runs their IT department now. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Man who live in glass house dress in basement. ----------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 09:33:26 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:33:26 -0700 Subject: Printer, was Re: Cool car! In-Reply-To: <20111014043042.A8921AD0BF2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20111014043042.A8921AD0BF2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E984836.8030803@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/11 9:30 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/3796488999_d3bafb02e7.jpg > > We had something that was likely the OEM version of the LP25 in our > Prime shop years ago. Band printer, 600 LPM (or maybe 450 with the > mixed case chain), iirc. I can't remember who the OEM was, though. > Data Products From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 09:33:37 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> from Pontus Pihlgren at "Oct 14, 11 04:27:39 pm" Message-ID: <201110141433.p9EEXbX2014276@floodgap.com> > > >What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > > >position? > > > > iirc, you would avoid using any auto (stack) variables that were in scope. > > Yes, so what is left to do? Exit ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Careful with that Axe, Eugene. -- Pink Floyd ------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 09:36:00 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:36:00 -0700 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9848D0.307@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/11 10:35 PM, Jason T wrote: > The machine appears to be an Arete' 1200 I / CHM have a lot of information on Arete Some is already up on bitsavers. From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Oct 14 09:36:02 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:36:02 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9848D2.6050207@verizon.net> On 10/14/2011 8:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 14/10/11 2:13 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:14:34PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> for(int i=0;i<14;i++) >>>> putchar(i["hello world\n"]); >>>> >>>> Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) >>> >>> What's to 'work out'? The argument to putchar looks a bit odd, but IIRC, >>> A[i] is a shorthand for *(A+i), and addition is commutitive (even >>> when it >>> involves pointers). So that's just indexing an array of chracters (the >>> string constant) using i. >> >> Hey Tony, cut me some slack. Not all C programmers will recall(or even >> know to begin with) that A[i] is shorthand for *(A+1). I learned it >> through this example. >> >> Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: > > The example *above* doesn't require reading any standards; it's basic C > usage and is in K&R 1. It would be hard to read or write C in any > serious way without having internalised things like this. (Because both > constructs are common.) Pontus, For what it's worth, I didn't know this "rule" prior to your example. And I've been programming C for myself for 20+ years. I can read and write C enough to accomplish my goals. When I run into a construct I haven't seen before, a little research, and I understand it enough to use it. In general, I write the cleanest simplest code that will get the job done. Concise code is good, but if there's a conflict, clear code is better. If I use anything that might be a bit tricky (I know I'm just a mere mortal, but Pontus' stuff counts) then I make sure that there's good enough comments to explain what I'm doing. This helps me and helps anyone else that might be reading the code. When I start writing these types of comments, however, I often just delete the block of code, and do it in a simpler way. Simpler doesn't necessary mean less efficient. And of course all my code is commented. Keith From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 10:49:25 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:49:25 +0100 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Funny how C is climbing back up the popularity chart http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html Are coders and managers realizing that the hype on the "high level" languages on speed of development causing real slow downs in performance and having to go back to the Real Thing TM. Long Live C :) I am currently coding some C just for fun. It is in C, MARC book data decoder, because every other language I have tried for the same problem were slow as slow can be. Under the hood there seems to be some very poor implementations of certain constructs and being able to code your own in C makes THE difference. Dave Caroline (Long time Assembler programmer) source data http://www.archive.org/details/marc_records_scriblio_net time to parse to txt format in C and put back on disk archivist at hp:~/marc$ time ./decodeall real 11m29.413s user 2m26.685s sys 0m41.751s disk bound From g-wright at att.net Fri Oct 14 11:20:21 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E852EF8.4020001@mail.msu.edu>, <4E97B374.8070705@mail.msu.edu> <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com> <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <1318609221.36629.YahooMailRC@web83815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Josh, I have never been able to either. And it's not the SD start up. It may be the lnterleave ??? or something they did that was odd. I have been making copies on running Altos machines. My 8" system is like yours and seems to like everything except theses. - Jerry ________________________________ From: Josh Dersch To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, October 13, 2011 10:09:17 PM Subject: Re: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's On 10/13/2011 9:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2011 at 20:58, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Some neat stuff, a copy of BDS-C, COBOL-80 and MBASIC for the Altos. >> I am not having much luck capturing images of the CP/M disks, however. >> They appear to be single-sided, double-density. The first two tracks >> are SD and have 26 sectors per track, the rest are DD and have 48 >> sectors/track which is where my system appears to have trouble, >> ImageDisk just won't read the DD tracks. If anyone has any >> suggestions, let me know. > It's your controller. Those sectors are MFM and 128 bytes long. > > You *can* read these with a controller that uses the National Semi > DP8473 controller. NEC and Intel pretty much screwed up 128 byte MFM > sectors. > > --Chuck > Nuts. I have an Adaptec AHA-1542C in my machine which I've had very good luck with thus far. I guess I'll keep my eyes open for a board that uses this controller... - Josh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 11:35:27 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:35:27 -0600 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2011 12:13 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: > > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > position? > Why the heck are you doing that? A: Quit ... your code is toast. > Regards, > Pontus. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 11:46:36 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:46:36 -0700 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini In-Reply-To: <4E9848D0.307@bitsavers.org> References: <4E9848D0.307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E98676C.90500@bitsavers.org> On 10/14/11 7:36 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/13/11 10:35 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> The machine appears to be an Arete' 1200 > > I / CHM have a lot of information on Arete > Some is already up on bitsavers. > just checked and I haven't uploaded anything yet. I'll try to take care of that today. http://dougbourn.blogspot.com/2010/02/best-possible-hands.html sort of a summary of where Arete/Arix came from there was some rescue discussions here in 1999 http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1999-August/186501.html From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 11:50:54 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:50:54 -0700 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> On 10/14/11 8:49 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > Are coders and managers realizing that the hype on the "high level" > languages on speed of development > causing real slow downs in performance In a word, no. Time to market and 'refactoring' trumps performance. The only place this seems to be a concern is in the embedded/mobile space where they can't throw MIPS at the problem because of power considerations. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 12:07:40 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:07:40 -0700 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini In-Reply-To: <4E98676C.90500@bitsavers.org> References: <4E9848D0.307@bitsavers.org> <4E98676C.90500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E986C5C.5050402@bitsavers.org> On 10/14/11 9:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/14/11 7:36 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 10/13/11 10:35 PM, Jason T wrote: >> >>> The machine appears to be an Arete' 1200 >> Interesting bit of trivia. It appears that BIX started on an Arete 1200 Byte Oct 1986 page 6 BUILDING BIX WITH MICROS It will come as no surprise to BYTE readers that we're building the BYTE Information Exchange (BIX) with microcomputers. Since research conducted among a sample of subscribers shows we may need to support more than 1000 simultaneous users within a year, BIX represents an exciting challenge to microcomputer and networking technology. We thought you might like to know how a group of outstanding technical people is helping us face this challenge. The first and most important step was to select the microcomputers and the operating system. Many powerful microcomputers are available. Clearly our application will place tremendous demands on the I/O system of whatever machines we use. Three members of McGraw-Hill's top technical unit. Jon Osser, Bill Coleman, and Mike Shareck, with a big assist from McGraw-Hill's chief scientist. corporate vice president Bill Raduchel. surveyed the marketplace and chose the Arete 1200, which was designed for I/O-intensive operations and runs ARIX, Arete's version of UNIX System V. Arete's chief designer, Ernie Rae!. has created a remarkable I/O engine. The Arete 1200 has up to 4 "tightly coupled" 12.5-MHz 68000s acting as CPUs. These 68000s have a common multiported main memory shared through the 32 -bit processor memory bus and can process up to 2.8 million instructions per second. Each CPU has its own 4 K-byte cache and no wait states when in cache. Main memory expands as high as 16 megabytes. In addition to the 68000s serving as CPUs, the system can accommodate up to 12 more 68000s, each on an I/O card that has eight serial ports. The I/O processor cards each have dualport RAM that is memory-mapped in the master CPU's address space for communication with the CPU. The Arete 1200 has four separate 32-bit buses: the interprocessor communication bus, the processor memory bus, the utility-transfer bus, and the data-transfer bus; The data-transfer bus is 32 bits wide and moves data at 33.3 megabytes per second. The system can support four ESMD (extended storage module device) peripherals simultaneously reading and/ or writing main memory. When fully loaded, the Arete 1200 can support as many as 88 simultaneous users. Mass storage can be expanded to 9 gigabytes. Phase one of BIX starts in Boston and will use an Arete 1200 to support 88 simultaneous users. The performance goal is to have. any BIX member's communication (conference comment or private mail message) available to appropriate parties within a few seconds. Phase two, probably underway by the time you read this, will link three Arete 1200s to support 250 simultaneous users. The Aretes are linked by devoting one I/O slot in each machine to Arete's Multibus adapter and Excelan's EXOS201 Ethernet card for Multibus. The EXOS201 has a local processor, an Ethernet controller, local memory, and an implementation of levels I, 2, and 3 of the ISO network standard. In this phase, each. of the three Aretes will maintain fully redundant database copies. Updates will be broadcast to all three machines. A process running on each machine will carry out the updates. Phase three is where things get really interesting. As Ernie Rael says, "The project is state of the art, so we'll have to learn the optimal solution:' In this phase, the network will become transparent. Arete will provide an operating-system interface that allows BIX to access files on any machine in the network as if all files were in one system. The transparent network will be based on the Sun Network File System (NFS). a virtual file system that allows files to reside on any system in the net. Arete is altering the kernel to ARIX to support the transparent file access of NFS. If Arete succeeds in networking 12 to I 5 machines in a way that provides access to files on any machine within a few seconds, the time-sharing scene will be altered forever, and BYTE will have succeeded in building BIX while remaining true to its microcomputer heritage. Phase four will build the system above 1000 simultaneous users. In this phase, the BlX conferencing software (the University of Guelph's CoSy) will understand more about its environment. Co$y author Al Mayer, a key figure throughout the growth of BIX, will get to explore his ideas for distributed conferencing. Plans for phase four must remain fluid until we've learned all we can from the. previous phases. Can'" microcomputer technology succeed in linking the microcomputers of BYTE's readers throughout the United States and Canada, and then Europe and Japan? We hope and believe it can. We will fall back on mainframe technology if we' must. but we thought you'd want us to try to build BIX this way first. TI'ying to build such a large-scale communications system with supermicrocomputers is a venturesome and innovative project. We are sure to encounter some road- -blocks. But the history of microcomputers is full of roadblocks with big signs reading "Not Possible with Microcomputers:.',We find this challenge irresistible. If you want to monitor oui--'progress-day by day, join BIX and have a look. If not. we'll keep you posted in the pages of BYTE. -Phil Lemmons, Editor in Chief From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 12:09:39 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:09:39 -0700 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini In-Reply-To: <4E98676C.90500@bitsavers.org> References: <4E9848D0.307@bitsavers.org> <4E98676C.90500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E986CD3.5060504@bitsavers.org> On 10/14/11 9:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/14/11 7:36 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 10/13/11 10:35 PM, Jason T wrote: >> >>> The machine appears to be an Arete' 1200 >> Byte Aug 1986 PROGRESS ON BIX BIX now (mid~June) has more than 6000 users and continues to grow rapidly. Growth was slowing system performance until we put four 68020s into the Arete 1200 in place of the three 68000s that were serving as processors. We also in~ . creased RAM from 4 megabytes to 8. To- gether with the twelve 68000s that han- dIe i/o. the four 68020s have made the Arete run with blazing speed again. We are considering the use of mUltiplexers, to increase the capacity of each port. and Sun's Network File System, to go beyond the capacity of one Arete 1200. David Betz, BIX senior editor and author of XLISP. has made a number of enhance~ ments to the BIX code since joining us. His new cyclic redundancy check routines have made downloads through packet nets (Tymnet) quite reliable and accurate. Other enhancements will make BIX easier to use. Programmers in New York are at work on direct~debit billing and corporate billing options to make BIX accessible to those who prefer not to use MasterCard or Visa. . McGraw-Hill has decided to send out re- quests for quote to provide the hardware for the next generation of BIX. The Arete machines are very much in the running. as are a number of other supermicros and some superminis. One large timesharing service wants to host BIX on Cyber main~ frames. -Phil Lemmons Editor in Chief From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 14 12:11:09 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:11:09 -0700 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini In-Reply-To: <4E98676C.90500@bitsavers.org> References: <4E9848D0.307@bitsavers.org> <4E98676C.90500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E986D2D.3000607@bitsavers.org> On 10/14/11 9:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/14/11 7:36 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 10/13/11 10:35 PM, Jason T wrote: >> Byte Mar 1987 BIX, the BYTE Information Exchange, now has more than 12,000 users, the estimated capacity for the 1986 Arete supermicrocomputer running BIX. The system continues to perform well despite the heavy work load, but it is clear that the hardware must be expanded dramatically to support the substantial growth planned for 1987 and beyond. Indeed, we stopped promotional mailings for several months in order to avoid swamping the current 88-port BIX system. We will replace the system with a new one capable of supporting 250 simultaneous users, with NFS (network file server) networking capability to provide for expansion to even greater size. Approximately 20 companies were invited to submit proposals for the next generation of BIX hardware, and most did so. Bidders were required to submit hardware configurations permitting growth to 500 and then 1000 simultaneous users. As of this writing, the number of bidders has been narrowed to four by our technical team at McGraw-Hill in New York. Two supermicrocomputer companies and two superminicomputer companies remain in contention. We are installing BIX software on all the remaining contenders and running simulations of various user loads. By the time you read this, we should have selected a vendor and be in the process of installing the new system. If we should encounter performance problems before the new system is up, rest assured that hardware capacity will soon triple From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 14 12:34:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:34:54 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2011 12:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Are coders and managers realizing that the hype on the "high level" >> languages on speed of development >> causing real slow downs in performance > > In a word, no. > Time to market and 'refactoring' trumps performance. > > The only place this seems to be a concern is in the embedded/mobile space > where they can't throw MIPS at the problem because of power considerations. ...which is why I work almost exclusively in the embedded space now, when doing software. It's the last refuge for people who care about (sometimes to an obsessive degree, as in my case) the efficiency of software. I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about code optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) will die in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of horrible grinding, lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to worsen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 14 12:36:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <1318609221.36629.YahooMailRC@web83815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E852EF8.4020001@mail.msu.edu>, <4E97B374.8070705@mail.msu.edu> <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com> <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> <1318609221.36629.YahooMailRC@web83815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20111014103022.M87620@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Jerry Wright wrote: > Josh, I have never been able to either. And it's not the SD > start up. It may be the lnterleave ??? or something they did that was > odd. I have been making copies on running Altos machines. My 8" > system is like yours and seems to like everything except theses. It is NOT the interleave. What they did that was odd was 128 byte MFM sectors. Chuck is correct. He KNOWS what he is talking about. MOST 765 based FDC chips can not handle 128 byte MFM sectors. SOME can. Fortunately, there are VERY few disk formats that use 128 byte MFM sectors. XenoCopy did not include any of them, because of the FDC problem. -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 14 12:39:28 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20111014103744.N87620@shell.lmi.net> > > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > > position? On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, ben wrote: > Why the heck are you doing that? > A: Quit ... your code is toast. It's a way to GET OUT in an unrecoverable situation, without having to back out of all of the layers. "Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass GO." From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 14 12:50:55 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:50:55 +0200 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20111014175055.GA2776@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 10:35:27AM -0600, ben wrote: > >Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: > > > >What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > >position? > > > Why the heck are you doing that? We use for error handling. > A: Quit ... your code is toast. You don't have to be so drastic, a return to the caller, however, is pretty much what you can do. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 14 12:51:44 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:51:44 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9848D2.6050207@verizon.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9848D2.6050207@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20111014175144.GB2776@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 10:36:02AM -0400, Keith M wrote: > Pontus, > > For what it's worth, I didn't know this "rule" prior to your Thanks :) I feel a little less like a moron now. Cheers, Pontus. From g at kurico.com Fri Oct 14 12:52:38 2011 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:52:38 -0500 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2011, at 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/2011 12:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Are coders and managers realizing that the hype on the "high level" >>> languages on speed of development >>> causing real slow downs in performance >> >> In a word, no. >> Time to market and 'refactoring' trumps performance. >> >> The only place this seems to be a concern is in the embedded/mobile space >> where they can't throw MIPS at the problem because of power considerations. > > ...which is why I work almost exclusively in the embedded space now, when doing software. It's the last refuge for people who care about (sometimes to an obsessive degree, as in my case) the efficiency of software. > > I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about code optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) will die in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of horrible grinding, lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to worsen. High frequency trading is another area where deep understanding is required. The back end of many of these cloud services also often require some pretty tight code though not to the extent that the HFT folks do. George From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 12:56:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:56:12 -0700 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org>, <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2011 at 13:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about > code optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) > will die in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of > horrible grinding, lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to > worsen. The last time I had the nerve to comment about poor code optimization on a C compiler, the response was an almost sneering "who cares about code optimization any more?". How sad. In a past life, I spent many many hours on improving code generation of FORTRAN compilers and hand-optimizing assembly code. While embedded may be the last refuge for assembly code writers, it won't be for much longer. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 13:04:22 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014103744.N87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> <20111014103744.N87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp >>> position? > > On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, ben wrote: >> Why the heck are you doing that? >> A: Quit ... your code is toast. > > It's a way to GET OUT in an unrecoverable situation, without having to > back out of all of the layers. "Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not > pass GO." Precisely. It's the plain C analog of try / catch. Bail out of a nested call chain without leaving a trail of if (!blah) return breadcrumbs. -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 13:31:35 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:31:35 -0600 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014103744.N87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> <20111014103744.N87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E988007.9040603@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2011 11:39 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp >>> position? > > On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, ben wrote: >> Why the heck are you doing that? >> A: Quit ... your code is toast. > > It's a way to GET OUT in an unrecoverable situation, without having to > back out of all of the layers. "Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not > pass GO." > I read that as having two setjump calls in a program. Something like this: setjump(&x) ... setjump(&y) ... error: longjump(y); cash: longjump(x); From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 13:37:28 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:37:28 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about code > optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) will die > in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of horrible grinding, > lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to worsen. > The slowness is due to complexity, which is inherent in user-centric software. If the program is going to be user friendly, it's going to have to anticipate a user's needs and respond in a logical fashion. Each option you give the user increases the complexity of code, sometimes exponentially. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 14 13:39:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:39:55 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org>, <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9881FB.6030405@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2011 01:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about >> code optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) >> will die in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of >> horrible grinding, lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to >> worsen. > > The last time I had the nerve to comment about poor code optimization > on a C compiler, the response was an almost sneering "who cares about > code optimization any more?". Kids and idiots. These are the same people who would never dream of passing through Sacramento on their way home from work in downtown DC to the DC suburbs, because it'd be stupid and inefficient, but they do the same thing in their software...because that's "just fine". It's incompetence at a very basic level. > How sad. In a past life, I spent many many hours on improving code > generation of FORTRAN compilers and hand-optimizing assembly code. I spent about an hour doing assembly *this morning*. I'm working on a project (new contract, woohoo!!) and needed to tweak my crt0.s. ARM assembler is kinda fun, but caffeine is definitely required. > While embedded may be the last refuge for assembly code writers, it > won't be for much longer. There will always be a need to know assembler (How else will we write compilers? How else will we debug them?), "these kids today" seem to have a great deal of fun ASSerting that it isn't done anymore. Quite a bit of IBM mainframe work is done in assembler, too, I should point out. When one has to process a gazillion ATM transactions per second, one doesn't usually do it in Java. (though today's mainframes do have Java acceleration hardware! Because it needs it!) The vast majority of embedded development these days is done in C, with some things (notably some low-level device handling, as you know) are done in assembler. You can't really do any serious embedded work without doing at least SOME assembler, for the C startup code (crt0.[so]), but the "canned" ones distributed with cross compilers are getting closer to being able to handle all "before calling main()" needs. C will be the king in the embedded space for a long time, I suspect. This has been the case for a very long time (I've personally been doing embedded development in C for 21 years, and it was being done that way for a long time before that), and things like that don't change overnight, even though each new crop of college kids have their "favorite language of the week" and love to proclaim how it's going to replace everything. When trying to make a locomotive engine controller work, we use what's known to be dependable, not what's trendy and cutesy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 14 13:46:41 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:46:41 +0200 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111014204641.e8659fbe.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:56:12 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > "who cares about code optimization any more?". FeFe does: http://www.fefe.de/know-your-compiler.pdf Abstract: Peolple often write less readable code because they think it will produce faster code. Unfortunately, in most cases, the code will not be faster. Warning: advanced topic, contains assembly language code. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 14 13:48:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:48:56 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E988418.9050004@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2011 02:37 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: >> I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about code >> optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) will die >> in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of horrible grinding, >> lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to worsen. > > The slowness is due to complexity, which is inherent in user-centric > software. If the program is going to be user friendly, it's going to have to > anticipate a user's needs and respond in a logical fashion. Each option you > give the user increases the complexity of code, sometimes exponentially. Then explain why an OS (Windows and MacOS X for example) is so slow and bloated? I'm not talking about the pretty layers of user interface atop the OS, but the OS itself. We've had dialog boxes and pull-down menus for decades, on machines whose memory measured in hundreds of kilobytes and clock rates in the single-digit MHz. This stuff isn't THAT complex, man! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 14 14:16:01 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:16:01 +0200 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014204641.e8659fbe.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014204641.e8659fbe.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20111014211601.b53adae5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:46:41 +0200 Jochen Kunz wrote: > > "who cares about code optimization any more?". > FeFe does: http://www.fefe.de/know-your-compiler.pdf > Abstract: Peolple often write less readable code because they think it > will produce faster code. Unfortunately, in most cases, the code will > not be faster. Warning: advanced topic, contains assembly language code. Ahhh, there is a newer version: http://dl.fefe.de/optimizer-isec.pdf -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Oct 14 14:18:46 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:18:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about code >> optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) will die >> in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of horrible grinding, >> lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to worsen. > > The slowness is due to complexity, which is inherent in user-centric > software. If the program is going to be user friendly, it's going to have to > anticipate a user's needs and respond in a logical fashion. Each option you > give the user increases the complexity of code, sometimes exponentially. IME the slowness is due to _unnecessary_ complexity, the creation of which is greatly facilitated by 'object oriented design'. I refactored some code this year that was using 7 non-trivial classes to do what I did in <10 lines of procedural code. The author had been brainwashed into thinking that making everything into an object and building in abstraction as a form of future-proofing was somehow going to result in cleaner, more reliable code. While that is a perticularly drastic example, I see lesser manifestations of this almost everywhere. Note that I'm not saying all OO design is bad, I think it has its place, but that many (most?) practitioners don't know when to stop. Alexey From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 14 14:31:45 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:31:45 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <20111014103022.M87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E852EF8.4020001@mail.msu.edu>, <4E97B374.8070705@mail.msu.edu> <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com> <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> <1318609221.36629.YahooMailRC@web83815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20111014103022.M87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E988E21.3050102@att.net> On 10/14/2011 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Jerry Wright wrote: > >> Josh, I have never been able to either. And it's not the SD >> start up. It may be the lnterleave ??? or something they did that was >> odd. I have been making copies on running Altos machines. My 8" >> system is like yours and seems to like everything except theses. >> > It is NOT the interleave. What they did that was odd was 128 byte MFM > sectors. > > Chuck is correct. He KNOWS what he is talking about. > MOST 765 based FDC chips can not handle 128 byte MFM sectors. > SOME can. > > Fortunately, there are VERY few disk formats that use 128 byte MFM > sectors. XenoCopy did not include any of them, because of the FDC > problem. > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > > > can one still obtain the XenoCopy-PC tool? Steve From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 14:32:51 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E988418.9050004@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 14, 11 02:48:56 pm" Message-ID: <201110141932.p9EJWqfN014304@floodgap.com> > > The slowness is due to complexity, which is inherent in user-centric > > software. If the program is going to be user friendly, it's going to have to > > anticipate a user's needs and respond in a logical fashion. Each option you > > give the user increases the complexity of code, sometimes exponentially. > > Then explain why an OS (Windows and MacOS X for example) is so slow > and bloated? I'm not talking about the pretty layers of user interface > atop the OS, but the OS itself. We've had dialog boxes and pull-down > menus for decades, on machines whose memory measured in hundreds of > kilobytes and clock rates in the single-digit MHz. This stuff isn't > THAT complex, man! My favourite example of how coding practices today are killing performance is Mozilla bug 684559, in which they replaced the perfectly good and heavily optimized PCRE library with the YARR interpreter. Nobody really cared because YARR was "more elegant." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I went to San Francisco. I found someone's heart. Now what? ---------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:33:20 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:33:20 -0500 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E988E80.7090008@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > ...which is why I work almost exclusively in the embedded space now, > when doing software. It's the last refuge for people who care about > (sometimes to an obsessive degree, as in my case) the efficiency of > software. Yeah, I got out of the full-time software game a decade ago because even then it was getting hard to find people who cared about efficiency, and throwing more hardware at problems was the norm. I'm not a perfectionist by any means, but that just didn't sit right with me. Having said that, it *was* quite good fun designing large distributed systems and working out the interactions between them and how best to place various bits of code, even when those bits of code in themselves might not be as efficient as they could be. It was still an optimization task, and in some ways involving some of the same analysis as would be done at a much lower level. > I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about > code optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) > will die in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of horrible > grinding, lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to worsen. You might be right. I think the thing I hate most is the thought that in a few decades every computer user will have grown up with computers that crash often and are bogged down with bloated software. Nobody will really remember times ever being different, so there'll be no incentive to change things. cheers Jules From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Oct 14 14:40:08 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 15:40:08 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9881FB.6030405@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org>, <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9881FB.6030405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E989018.9010301@verizon.net> On 10/14/2011 2:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > The vast majority of embedded development these days is done in C, with > some things (notably some low-level device handling, as you know) are > done in assembler. You can't really do any serious embedded work without > doing at least SOME assembler, for the C startup code (crt0.[so]), but > the "canned" ones distributed with cross compilers are getting closer to > being able to handle all "before calling main()" needs. > > C will be the king in the embedded space for a long time, I suspect. So I have some basic familiarity with high-end router design, and it seems that there is a trend (for some time) to move the datapath design away from FPGAs (or ASICs) housing multiple soft-processors whose custom software was written in assembly to using off the shelf Network Processing Units. Or in general, a move away from custom hardware to standard (like Intel's NPUs) CPU-like designs running at a faster clock rate. I don't know how widespread the trend is but it is interesting to me nonetheless. Keith From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:44:13 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:44:13 -0500 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E98910D.607@gmail.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about code >> optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) will die >> in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of horrible grinding, >> lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to worsen. >> > > The slowness is due to complexity, which is inherent in user-centric > software. If the program is going to be user friendly, it's going to have to > anticipate a user's needs and respond in a logical fashion. Each option you > give the user increases the complexity of code, sometimes exponentially. But that complexity often isn't a concurrent thing - I don't think there's a reason that you can't pile an application up with features, but only load (or install) those that are actually needed on a per-user basis. It's going back to the Unix "chain lots of little widgets together to suit the task at hand" philosophy rather than the "build a monster app whether you need all the features or not" approach that seems the norm today. I don't give a crap about half the things that some of my regularly-used apps do. I can completely understand that some people want them, and so I can understand the developers writing them. I just don't think I should be forced to have them just because someone else thinks they're good. If we all had computers that just did exactly what we needed of them and nothing more, the world would be a better place. I suppose in a way, at least in the mobile arena, things are going that way too: small apps for this that and the other running within a common OS framework - so maybe that trend will happen once again with desktops, too... cheers J. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 15:17:58 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:17:58 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E988418.9050004@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E988418.9050004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Then explain why an OS (Windows and MacOS X for example) is so slow and > bloated? I'm not talking about the pretty layers of user interface atop the > OS, but the OS itself. We've had dialog boxes and pull-down menus for > decades, on machines whose memory measured in hundreds of kilobytes and > clock rates in the single-digit MHz. This stuff isn't THAT complex, man! Miles of abstraction. HALs to take care of multiple file system types, transparent encryption and compression, continual and intermittent networked file access, distributed file systems, transparent backup schemes, multiple ACL schemes, and every unicode page known to man. HALs to handle multiple display driver types, generic display optimization and computing routines, encrypted and non-encrypted data paths, and redirecting the whole thing to a remote desktop. Everything is abstracted, sometimes on multiple levels. This is the price of flexibility. Either abstract everything or maintain dozens of kernels for every possible hardware configuration. Neither is ideal, but abstraction is more maintainable. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 14 15:29:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:29:15 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E988E80.7090008@gmail.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E988E80.7090008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E989B9B.1090204@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2011 03:33 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> ...which is why I work almost exclusively in the embedded space now, >> when doing software. It's the last refuge for people who care about >> (sometimes to an obsessive degree, as in my case) the efficiency of >> software. > > Yeah, I got out of the full-time software game a decade ago because even > then it was getting hard to find people who cared about efficiency, and > throwing more hardware at problems was the norm. I'm not a perfectionist > by any means, but that just didn't sit right with me. Same here. Except that I *am* a perfectionist. :-/ > Having said that, it *was* quite good fun designing large distributed > systems and working out the interactions between them and how best to > place various bits of code, even when those bits of code in themselves > might not be as efficient as they could be. It was still an optimization > task, and in some ways involving some of the same analysis as would be > done at a much lower level. Oh yes, fun stuff indeed! I love challenges like that. >> I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about >> code optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) >> will die in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of >> horrible grinding, lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to worsen. > > You might be right. I think the thing I hate most is the thought that in > a few decades every computer user will have grown up with computers that > crash often and are bogged down with bloated software. Nobody will > really remember times ever being different, so there'll be no incentive > to change things. That's happening *now*, at least with the crashing. Many people I've talked to from the Windows world (no offense to Josh, who may be one of Microsoft's only competent developers) honestly think that's "just how computers are". :-( Guest pointing at big server with 16 hard drives: "Man, I'd hate to have to reinstall THAT!" Me: "Reinstall? Why would I ever need to?" Guest: "Every computer needs to be reinstalled once in a while!" Me: [head explodes] -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 15:31:49 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 15:31:49 -0500 Subject: Printer, was Re: Cool car! In-Reply-To: <4E984836.8030803@bitsavers.org> References: <20111014043042.A8921AD0BF2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4E984836.8030803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I believe you are both correct. I meant to say B300, which I think was the DP number for the DEC LP25. It's been a while but while DEC sold mostly DP printers for PDP11's, I think they marketed the P300 also. I should drink caffine and wake up before I type. Sorry, Paul On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/13/11 9:30 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/3796488999_d3bafb02e7.jpg >> >> We had something that was likely the OEM version of the LP25 in our >> Prime shop years ago. ?Band printer, 600 LPM (or maybe 450 with the >> mixed case chain), iirc. ?I can't remember who the OEM was, though. >> > > Data Products > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 14 15:32:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:32:41 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E989018.9010301@verizon.net> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com>, <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org>, <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9881FB.6030405@neurotica.com> <4E989018.9010301@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E989C69.6030504@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2011 03:40 PM, Keith M wrote: >> The vast majority of embedded development these days is done in C, with >> some things (notably some low-level device handling, as you know) are >> done in assembler. You can't really do any serious embedded work without >> doing at least SOME assembler, for the C startup code (crt0.[so]), but >> the "canned" ones distributed with cross compilers are getting closer to >> being able to handle all "before calling main()" needs. >> >> C will be the king in the embedded space for a long time, I suspect. > > So I have some basic familiarity with high-end router design, and it > seems that there is a trend (for some time) to move the datapath design > away from FPGAs (or ASICs) housing multiple soft-processors whose custom > software was written in assembly to using off the shelf Network > Processing Units. > > Or in general, a move away from custom hardware to standard (like > Intel's NPUs) CPU-like designs running at a faster clock rate. > > I don't know how widespread the trend is but it is interesting to me > nonetheless. I think that's not necessarily a bad thing, if the COTS NPUs are actually good at what they're supposed to do. A few years ago, I moved my network from a studly, very fast Cisco Catalyst 5500 to a Cisco Catalyst 3548XL. That moved me from packets switched in FPGA-based hardware to packets switched in firmware running on a PowerPC chip, a 405 I think. My power bill dropped by about $50/mo (which was the goal) but man the performance drop was huge. If these new NPUs can do their jobs as quickly and efficiently as the FPGA-based switching (whether it's done by firmware running on soft cores or directly switched by an FPGA-based hardware switching fabric), personally I think that's ok. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 14 15:40:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:40:07 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E988418.9050004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E989E27.3070802@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2011 04:17 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: >> Then explain why an OS (Windows and MacOS X for example) is so slow and >> bloated? I'm not talking about the pretty layers of user interface atop the >> OS, but the OS itself. We've had dialog boxes and pull-down menus for >> decades, on machines whose memory measured in hundreds of kilobytes and >> clock rates in the single-digit MHz. This stuff isn't THAT complex, man! > > > Miles of abstraction. HALs to take care of multiple file system types, Doesn't need to be switched or selected at run-time; index into a table of pointers to the correct routines. > transparent encryption and compression, Well ok, this burns CPU no matter how you slice it, unless you use hardware crypto accelerators. I do, and will never go back! > continual and intermittent networked file access, distributed file systems, transparent backup schemes, These burn more bandwidth than CPU cycles. > multiple ACL schemes, Who uses more than one (or maybe two) at a time? If anyone does, I'd love to know why. > and every unicode page known to man. As above, indexing into a table is fast. And how many languages does ONE person really want to use to interact with their computer? Usually one. Why even have the others installed? > HALs to handle multiple display driver types, Also as above, the decisions between them don't need to be made during use, but only during initialization. Unless you mean stuff like abstract display coordinate systems, which can (and arguably should) be handled by the display hardware. GL is pretty much standardized these days. > generic display optimization and computing routines, > encrypted and non-encrypted data paths, and redirecting the whole thing to a > remote desktop. Everything is abstracted, sometimes on multiple levels. I see and agree with your point. But if these things are competently implemented, the performance impact should be minimal. > This is the price of flexibility. Either abstract everything or maintain > dozens of kernels for every possible hardware configuration. Neither is > ideal, but abstraction is more maintainable. But different kernels for different hardware configurations are handled by pluggable modules. Save for some indirection through device tables and such, ALL of that stuff is handled at boot time. Minimal time-of-use impact. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 14 15:46:28 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 22:46:28 +0200 Subject: Printer, was Re: Cool car! In-Reply-To: References: <20111014043042.A8921AD0BF2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4E984836.8030803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20111014204628.GA7983@Update.UU.SE> And it depends on what picture you look at. In the second article posted: http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2011/10/barn-find-1955-alloy-body-mercedes-benz-sl300-gullwing-shows-up-in-santa-monica.html There is one, unkown to me, printer in the first picture. And, in the second picture, something that definitely looks like an LP25 (I know, there is an LP25 just five meters from where I sit) /P On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 03:31:49PM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > I believe you are both correct. I meant to say B300, which I think was > the DP number for the DEC LP25. It's been a while but while DEC sold > mostly DP printers for PDP11's, I think they marketed the P300 also. I > should drink caffine and wake up before I type. > > Sorry, Paul > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 10/13/11 9:30 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > >> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/3796488999_d3bafb02e7.jpg > >> > >> We had something that was likely the OEM version of the LP25 in our > >> Prime shop years ago. ?Band printer, 600 LPM (or maybe 450 with the > >> mixed case chain), iirc. ?I can't remember who the OEM was, though. > >> > > > > Data Products > > > > > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 15:55:41 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 15:55:41 -0500 Subject: Printer, was Re: Cool car! In-Reply-To: <20111014204628.GA7983@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111014043042.A8921AD0BF2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4E984836.8030803@bitsavers.org> <20111014204628.GA7983@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: There might be an acoustic cover on top of the 11/60. Paul On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > And it depends on what picture you look at. In the second article posted: > > http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2011/10/barn-find-1955-alloy-body-mercedes-benz-sl300-gullwing-shows-up-in-santa-monica.html > > There is one, unkown to me, printer in the first picture. And, in the > second picture, something that definitely looks like an LP25 (I know, > there is an LP25 just five meters from where I sit) > > /P > > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 03:31:49PM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: >> I believe you are both correct. I meant to say B300, which I think was >> the DP number for the DEC LP25. ?It's been a while but while DEC sold >> mostly DP printers for PDP11's, I think they marketed the P300 also. I >> should drink caffine and wake up before I type. >> >> Sorry, Paul >> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> > On 10/13/11 9:30 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> > >> >> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/3796488999_d3bafb02e7.jpg >> >> >> >> We had something that was likely the OEM version of the LP25 in our >> >> Prime shop years ago. ?Band printer, 600 LPM (or maybe 450 with the >> >> mixed case chain), iirc. ?I can't remember who the OEM was, though. >> >> >> > >> > Data Products >> > >> > >> > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 16:00:00 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:00:00 -0500 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E989B9B.1090204@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E988E80.7090008@gmail.com> <4E989B9B.1090204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E98A2D0.1040407@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/2011 03:33 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> ...which is why I work almost exclusively in the embedded space now, >>> when doing software. It's the last refuge for people who care about >>> (sometimes to an obsessive degree, as in my case) the efficiency of >>> software. >> >> Yeah, I got out of the full-time software game a decade ago because even >> then it was getting hard to find people who cared about efficiency, and >> throwing more hardware at problems was the norm. I'm not a perfectionist >> by any means, but that just didn't sit right with me. > > Same here. Except that I *am* a perfectionist. :-/ I just keep an eye on the clock, I suppose; there are times when I want to do a better job of something, but time constraints don't allow it. I don't think many people are lucky enough to set their own deadlines all of the time :-( >> Having said that, it *was* quite good fun designing large distributed >> systems and working out the interactions between them and how best to >> place various bits of code, even when those bits of code in themselves >> might not be as efficient as they could be. It was still an optimization >> task, and in some ways involving some of the same analysis as would be >> done at a much lower level. > > Oh yes, fun stuff indeed! I love challenges like that. I suspect those sorts of problems won't go away, either - the downside being that they aren't so relevant for the majority of computing problems (which just involve a single-user machine, or single server on a LAN or "out there somewhere") >> You might be right. I think the thing I hate most is the thought that in >> a few decades every computer user will have grown up with computers that >> crash often and are bogged down with bloated software. Nobody will >> really remember times ever being different, so there'll be no incentive >> to change things. > > That's happening *now*, at least with the crashing. Many people I've > talked to from the Windows world (no offense to Josh, who may be one of > Microsoft's only competent developers) honestly think that's "just how > computers are". :-( Indeed it is - I've heard the same many a time. But at the moment I think there are still a lot of folk who know that it shouldn't have to be like that, but they're not the majority and they generally don't know how - or can't - change things for the better. Give it a few years though and I'm worried that group won't even exist - computers will just be accepted by everyone to be slow and quirky. Mind you, the sheer amount of data we cart around these days is pretty staggering - and that's something of a new problem which didn't exist "back in the day" (mp3 files, digital photos unheard of, mbox was well under 1MB etc. - heck, my email takes up nearly 2GB these days) cheers Jules From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 16:05:40 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:05:40 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E989E27.3070802@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E988418.9050004@neurotica.com> <4E989E27.3070802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > But different kernels for different hardware configurations are handled by > pluggable modules. Save for some indirection through device tables and > such, ALL of that stuff is handled at boot time. Minimal time-of-use > impact. The performance impact doesn't come from loading modules, it comes from the overhead in passing/translating data and commands through the various layers. There's also inherent "overhead' in that the HAL constrains the device driver or API as to what optimizations it can implement. For instance, the latest revision of the Windows audio HAL doesn't allow direct hardware access in the middleware, which hamstrings hardware acceleration of various mixing and decoding operations. This was a side effect of the secure/encrypted data path requirement for HDMI. Think about the code involved in writing a generic volume management system that can connect any possible type of file system to any type of storage device - FAT32 to an SD card, ext4 to a SAN, UFS to a DVD-ROM drive shared over a CIFS network. There's a lot of configuration that needs to be initialized and handled, even if the particular file system or device is only going to take advantage of a fraction of the volume manager's capabilities. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 16:09:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:09:04 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <20111014103022.M87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <1318609221.36629.YahooMailRC@web83815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, <20111014103022.M87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E984280.16334.1126E07@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2011 at 10:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > Fortunately, there are VERY few disk formats that use 128 byte MFM > sectors. XenoCopy did not include any of them, because of the FDC > problem. This is one that Don Maslin and I worked through, checking out a number of controllers until we hit the NS DP8473. It must have been designed by an intern, because it pretty much stands apart from the crowd of 765 clones in that it knows what to do with 128 byte MFM sectors. I haven't tried to use one to format and read sectors smaller than 128 bytes, however. It might be interesting to see what happens. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 14 16:31:29 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 23:31:29 +0200 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E988418.9050004@neurotica.com> References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98686E.8070203@bitsavers.org> <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E988418.9050004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111014233129.7869ee34.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:48:56 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > Then explain why an OS (Windows and MacOS X for example) is so slow > and bloated? Part of the problem: Unexperienced programmers. Recently a colleague showed a code snipet to me. It was 10..15 lines of C++ from some Linux package manager GUI. There was a bug in it regarding the call of a command line tool to do the actual work of adding a package. It was clearly visible that the person who wrote that code didn't know exactely what he did. (This is particularly bad in C++.) I am sure he did it in the best aim to give something usefull back to the Linux community. I am sure he did it as well as he could and that he wasn't sloppy. But lacking experience and knowledge, his code was awfully bad. (e.g. calling system(3) and using temp-files insted of using popen(3) or pipe(2) / fork(2) / exec(3), passing std:string by value instead const reference, ...) So this is only one tiny example from one programmer. But today there are many of those programmers and they write a lot of bad code. New programmers come and they learn coding by reading that bad code and extending it... But regarding optimization, keep in mind, to cite Donald Knuth: premature optimization is the root of all evil The problem herin is: Sometimes the need for optimization arises later and your boss doesn't give you the time needed to do the refactoring of legacy, non-optimal code... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From spc at conman.org Fri Oct 14 16:43:15 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:43:15 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E9872BE.4080709@neurotica.com> <4E98154C.9753.61DBD1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111014214315.GF31799@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 14 Oct 2011 at 13:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I'm quite certain that the last few people who know anything about > > code optimization (and I don't mean "putting -O in cc's argument list) > > will die in our generation, and the current disturbing trend of > > horrible grinding, lumbering, bloated slowness will continue to > > worsen. > > The last time I had the nerve to comment about poor code optimization > on a C compiler, the response was an almost sneering "who cares about > code optimization any more?". > > How sad. In a past life, I spent many many hours on improving code > generation of FORTRAN compilers and hand-optimizing assembly code. > > While embedded may be the last refuge for assembly code writers, it > won't be for much longer. The latest project I've been working on (which was just announced [1]) was done in C, and I have a hard time considering it an "embedded" system, seeing how the code runs on a dozen machines for each "installation" (it's an enhanced caller ID product for cell phones, and thus because call processing is involved, there's a ton of redundancy). There is even some SPARC assembly involved (the code runs under Solaris) because the Sun C compiler wasn't good enough for a particular function. -spc (So there's still hope left ... ) [1] http://cequint.com/products/ I was involved with the Picture Me feature (I'm responsible for writing the regression and load tests for the call processing side of that feature), and some of my code even made it into the City ID project [2]. [2] Interesting fact---caller ID is handled over DNS. No, really. Bind supports the NAPTR record type, which is used to handle caller ID by the phone companies. I wrote a DNS encoder/decoder [3], which was just as fast as the code they were using, but reduced the run time memory consumption by 15M. [3] http://www.conman.org/software/spcdns/ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 16:55:21 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014214315.GF31799@brevard.conman.org> from Sean Conner at "Oct 14, 11 05:43:15 pm" Message-ID: <201110142155.p9ELtMHI013240@floodgap.com> > The latest project I've been working on (which was just announced [1]) was > done in C, and I have a hard time considering it an "embedded" system, > seeing how the code runs on a dozen machines for each "installation" (it's > an enhanced caller ID product for cell phones, and thus because call > processing is involved, there's a ton of redundancy). There is even some > SPARC assembly involved (the code runs under Solaris) because the Sun C > compiler wasn't good enough for a particular function. Right now as we speak I'm writing a POWER macroassembler for Mozilla's JavaScript interpreter, which turns bytecodes into one:many POWER assembly instructions. I'm modelling the memory access on SPARC and the ALU work on ARM. It's going to be a curious hybrid when I'm finished (about 33%). The "trampoline" that hands off execution is handwritten PPC assembly. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Nasty habits/Here to stay! -- Oingo Boingo --------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 14 19:30:05 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 17:30:05 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E98D40D.4000507@brouhaha.com> Puntus asks: > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > position? Test the value returned by setjmp(). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 19:44:50 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:44:50 -0600 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98D40D.4000507@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98D40D.4000507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E98D782.6080900@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2011 6:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Puntus asks: > > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > > position? > > Test the value returned by setjmp(). > if(p==NULL) tinyprintf(" Call the guru!\n\r"); From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 14 20:13:32 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:13:32 -0700 Subject: setjmp()/longjmp() (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E98DE3C.3000203@brouhaha.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > position? Jules Richardson wrote: > Dump core and run away? :-) ben wrote: > Why the heck are you doing that? > A: Quit ... your code is toast. If you guys really don't think that there's anything better to do than that, why would you use bother to use setjmp() and longjmp()? You could just exit(). Toby Thain wrote: > iirc, you would avoid using any auto (stack) variables that were in scope. That's far more restrictive than actually necessary. You should avoid accessing any automatic variables local to the function that invoked setjmp() and not declared volatile and that may have changed between the setjmp() invocation and longjmp(). In other words, an ordinary local variable that is not changed after the setjmp() invocation can still be used. In practice that means that the function invoking setjmp() should usually not pass a pointer to that variable to another function that might modify it before the longjmp(), or should declare it volatile if it does. Here's another test of how well you know proper use of setjmp()/longjmp(). The C99 code below (which obviously is not valid C89) has had some printf() calls inserted for debugging. What will this program do? Hint: this is trickier than it looks. (If you're going to look it up in the standard, don't post the answer. The question is how well people know it, not whether they can read.) Eric // ---------------- cut here ---------------- #include #include jmp_buf buf; // trivial test of longjmp() int foo (void) { printf ("in foo, before longjmp()\n"); longjmp (buf, 0); printf ("in foo, after longjmp()\n"); } // main program int main (int argc, char**argv) { int a; printf ("started main\n"); a = setjmp (buf); printf ("setjmp() returned %d\n", a); if (! a) foo (); else printf ("longjmp() caused control to return to main\n"); printf ("main about to exit\n"); return 0; } // ---------------- end ---------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 20:20:57 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:20:57 -0600 Subject: setjmp()/longjmp() (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <4E98DE3C.3000203@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E98DE3C.3000203@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E98DFF9.3070707@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2011 7:13 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > If you guys really don't think that there's anything better to do than > that, why would you use bother to use setjmp() and longjmp()? You could > just exit(). > At this point, I really need to see what CPU is running this mess. This is the point where the 5% assembly code shows up. Ben. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 14 21:24:59 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:24:59 -0700 Subject: setjmp()/longjmp() (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <4E98DFF9.3070707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E98DE3C.3000203@brouhaha.com> <4E98DFF9.3070707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E98EEFB.2040808@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > If you guys really don't think that there's anything better to do than > that, why would you use bother to use setjmp() and longjmp()? You could > just exit(). ben wrote: > At this point, I really need to see what CPU is running this mess. > This is the point where the 5% assembly code shows up. There are plenty of legitimate uses for setjmp()/longjmp() that don't require or have anything to do with use of assembly language. The whole point of setjmp()/longjmp() is to allow unwinding the call stack in a controlled and portable manner. Some care must be exercised to use setjmp()/longjmp() correctly, but that is true of programming in general. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 14 21:26:53 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:26:53 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98D782.6080900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98D40D.4000507@brouhaha.com> <4E98D782.6080900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E98EF6D.6050400@brouhaha.com> Pontus asks: > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > position? I wrote: > Test the value returned by setjmp(). ben wrote: > if(p==NULL) tinyprintf(" Call the guru!\n\r"); Definitely not. 1) setjmp does not return a pointer 2) setjmp returning zero is not an error condition From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 21:55:59 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:55:59 -0600 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98EF6D.6050400@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98D40D.4000507@brouhaha.com> <4E98D782.6080900@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E98EF6D.6050400@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E98F63F.7070108@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2011 8:26 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Pontus asks: > > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > > position? > > I wrote: > > Test the value returned by setjmp(). > > ben wrote: > > if(p==NULL) tinyprintf(" Call the guru!\n\r"); > > Definitely not. > 1) setjmp does not return a pointer > 2) setjmp returning zero is not an error condition > I am aware of the function, but not the call syntax. As for it being a portable function call, I can't think of many CPU's as clean as the PDP-11 for the original programing usage. Back to the regular scheduled talk about web bloat. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 14 22:23:29 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 23:23:29 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/11 10:27 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 08:56:44AM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: >> >> The example *above* doesn't require reading any standards; it's >> basic C usage and is in K&R 1. It would be hard to read or write C >> in any serious way without having internalised things like this. >> (Because both constructs are common.) > > You might be right and I just haven't coded enough C to have > internalised that thing. An oft-quoted C idiom (the cuteness of which does wear off a bit) was exhibited - apart from in Unix sources - in the K&R book. To understand it one might have to realise that adding a constant to a pointer, and dereferencing, is equivalent to p[constant]: mystery(char *s, char *t) { while(*s++ = *t++) ; } The *(p+c) business cannot remain mysterious if one wants to write idiomatic C. I would tend to prefer the idiom above to a tedious loop with counter and []'s written longhand, though a comment might be warranted. --Toby > >>> What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp >>> position? >> >> iirc, you would avoid using any auto (stack) variables that were in scope. > > Yes, so what is left to do? > > /P > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Oct 14 22:59:34 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:59:34 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> On 10/14/2011 8:23 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > An oft-quoted C idiom (the cuteness of which does wear off a bit) was > exhibited - apart from in Unix sources - in the K&R book. To > understand it one might have to realise that adding a constant to a > pointer, and dereferencing, is equivalent to p[constant]: > > mystery(char *s, char *t) { > while(*s++ = *t++) > ; > } > > The *(p+c) business cannot remain mysterious if one wants to write > idiomatic C. I would tend to prefer the idiom above to a tedious loop > with counter and []'s written longhand, though a comment might be > warranted. > > --Toby And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds checking :). - Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 14 23:44:46 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:44:46 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E990FBE.7020002@brouhaha.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds checking :). On most common general-purpose computers, you do get that. When one of the pointers exceeds the segment bounds, you'll get a segfault and the process will be killed. I suppose you probably wanted checking against some more restricted bounds, though. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 00:29:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 22:29:32 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2011 at 23:23, Toby Thain wrote: > while(*s++ = *t++) One of the most evil programming conventions ever foisted on the computer community--null-terminated character strings. While I'm sure that Messrs. K&R didn't intend it to become a hard-and-fast convention, it served to hammer young minds into thinking that way. Before C and its ilk, did *any* language's compiler store character strings that way, aside from variable word- and record-length machines like the 1401 and 1620? Consider what a problem this is on a machine where the smallest addressing granularity is a 64 bit word. >From a compilation standpoint, it makes literal pooling by the compiler nearly impossible, wasting space. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 10:35:18 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 11:35:18 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/11 11:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 10/14/2011 8:23 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> An oft-quoted C idiom (the cuteness of which does wear off a bit) was >> exhibited - apart from in Unix sources - in the K&R book. To >> understand it one might have to realise that adding a constant to a >> pointer, and dereferencing, is equivalent to p[constant]: >> >> mystery(char *s, char *t) { >> while(*s++ = *t++) >> ; >> } >> >> The *(p+c) business cannot remain mysterious if one wants to write >> idiomatic C. I would tend to prefer the idiom above to a tedious loop >> with counter and []'s written longhand, though a comment might be >> warranted. >> >> --Toby > > And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds > checking :). But but but OMG THAT WOULD SLOW IT DOWN.... --Toby > > - Josh > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 10:43:25 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 11:43:25 -0400 Subject: TenFourFox is awesome - Re: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110142155.p9ELtMHI013240@floodgap.com> References: <201110142155.p9ELtMHI013240@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E99AA1D.4010901@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/11 5:55 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The latest project I've been working on (which was just announced [1]) was >> done in C, and I have a hard time considering it an "embedded" system, ... > > Right now as we speak I'm writing a POWER macroassembler for Mozilla's > JavaScript interpreter, which turns bytecodes into one:many POWER assembly > instructions. I'm modelling the memory access on SPARC and the ALU work on > ARM. It's going to be a curious hybrid when I'm finished (about 33%). Are you writing this up anywhere? Sounds interesting. TenFourFox* is awesome, by the way. You might want to add on its homepage that Opera has also abandoned PowerPC, but never even finished debugging the most recent and crash-prone PPC releases, adding insult to injury. --Toby * - http://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ > > The "trampoline" that hands off execution is handwritten PPC assembly. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 11:20:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:20:53 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> On Oct 15, 2011, at 11:35 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 14/10/11 11:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 10/14/2011 8:23 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> An oft-quoted C idiom (the cuteness of which does wear off a bit) was >>> exhibited - apart from in Unix sources - in the K&R book. To >>> understand it one might have to realise that adding a constant to a >>> pointer, and dereferencing, is equivalent to p[constant]: >>> >>> mystery(char *s, char *t) { >>> while(*s++ = *t++) >>> ; >>> } >>> >>> The *(p+c) business cannot remain mysterious if one wants to write >>> idiomatic C. I would tend to prefer the idiom above to a tedious loop >>> with counter and []'s written longhand, though a comment might be >>> warranted. >>> >> >> And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds >> checking :). > > But but but OMG THAT WOULD SLOW IT DOWN.... >> >> >> Yes. And if you think about it, that particular change would slow pretty much everything on the planet down. While it's convenient, it really amounts to programmer hand-holding. I'm certainly able to keep track of my own arrays, surely you are as well. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 15 11:39:44 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TenFourFox is awesome - Re: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99AA1D.4010901@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Oct 15, 11 11:43:25 am" Message-ID: <201110151639.p9FGdiUL009302@floodgap.com> > > Right now as we speak I'm writing a POWER macroassembler for Mozilla's > > JavaScript interpreter, which turns bytecodes into one:many POWER assembly > > instructions. I'm modelling the memory access on SPARC and the ALU work on > > ARM. It's going to be a curious hybrid when I'm finished (about 33%). > > Are you writing this up anywhere? Sounds interesting. I'll probably release it back to Mozilla for inclusion in the Firefox tree (it will be in TenFourFox, I'm planning for 9), although the tracer that is already in TenFourFox is already obsolete, so it's kind of not worth it sometimes. -_- > TenFourFox* is awesome, by the way. > > You might want to add on its homepage that Opera has also abandoned > PowerPC, but never even finished debugging the most recent and > crash-prone PPC releases, adding insult to injury. I'm trying to accentuate the positive :) That said, I see few people in PPC land hanging onto Opera. People seem to prefer Camino, Firefox 3.6 or Safari. I don't know why more people don't use OmniWeb; it's quite good and is my choice when I have to use WebKit. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why was I born with such contemporaries? -- Oscar Wilde -------------------- From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 11:50:12 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:50:12 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 15 Oct 2011, at 18:20 , Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm certainly able to keep track of my own arrays, surely you are as well. ;) You'd be surprised at the number of people that can't find their own array bounds with both hands. .tsooJ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 15 11:58:49 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:58:49 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9765CF.25580.2E07294@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> <4E9765CF.25580.2E07294@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/11 10:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A lot of Ultrastor, DTC and Future Domain controllers use it. If > you have one of the DTK Mini-micro floppy controllers, you'll find it > there as well. > Here are all of the ISA controllers with a DP8473, extracted from an old controller list AHA-1542Bs show up at Weird Stuff fairly often. If you need one to read the Altos floppies, LMK. ADAPTEC AHA-1522 ISA-SCSI AT 7HD 2FD B 1/2 XT NS DP8473 AIC 6260 (PIO) PROGRAMMED I/O ADAPTEC AHA-1542B ISA-SCSI AT 7HD 2FD B C 3/4 XT NS DP8473 AIC 6250 (BUS MASTER) 1ST PARTY DMA BUSLOGIC BT-542B ISA-SCSI-2 AT 7HD 2FD B C 1/2 AT NS DP8473 NCR 53C94 (BUS MASTER) BUSLOGIC BT-542D ISA-SCSI-2FD AT 7HD 2FD B C FULL AT NS DP8473 NCR 53C94 BUS MASTER, DIFFERENTIAL SCSI BUSLOGIC BT-542S ISA-SCSI-2F AT 7HD 2FD B C FULL AT NS DP8473 NCR 53C94 BUS MASTER, 2.88MB FLOPPY BUSLOGIC BT-742A EISA-SCSI-2 EISA 7HD 2FD B C 1/2 AT NS DP8473 NCR 53C94 BUS MASTER,PASSIVE TERMINATION C.S.C. FASTCACHE 32 ISA-SCSI AT 7HD 4FD B C FULL AT NS DP8473 NCR 53C400 256K-8MB CACHE (STD. SIMMs) FUTURE DOMAIN TMC-1670 ISA-SCSI-2F AT 7HD 2HD B C HALF XT NS DP8473 TMC-1800 (PIO), 8KB DUAL BUFFER FUTURE DOMAIN TMC-1680 ISA-SCSI-2F AT 7HD 4FD B C HALF XT NS DP8473 TMC-1800 (PIO), 8KB BUFFER,*OLD:TMC-950 FUTURE DOMAIN TMC-885[M] ISA-SCSI AT 7HD 4FD B C 3/4 XT NS DP8473 TMC-950 (PIO) GSI 1495-44-V ISA-ESDI AT 1:1 4HD 4FD 2046 RS B 3/4 XT NS DP8473 R/S ECC, CACHE, DISK SHADOWING MACROTRON SYSTEMS MSI-2010 ISA-SCSI-2 AT 7HD 2FD B C 1/2 XT SPI300/16 NS DP8473V MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-1165A ISA-ESDI AT 1:1 2HD 2FD 4096 16 56 B 3/4 XT NS DP8473V 25MHz CHANNEL, 64KB CACHE MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-1175 ISA-ESDI AT 2HD 2FD 4096 16 56 B 2/3 XT NS DP8473V >528MB SUPPORT, 64KB CACHE MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-2068 ISA-IDE(AT) AT 2HD 2FD 4096 16 B 3/4 AT NS DP8473V >528MB SUPPORT, .5-8MB CACHE MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-2068A ISA-IDE(AT) AT 2HD 2FD 4096 16 B 3/4 AT NS DP8473V >528MB SUPPORT, 2-16MB CACHE MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-2078 ISA(LB)-IDE(AT) AT(VESA) 2HD 2FD 4096 16 B 3/4 AT NS DP8473V >528MB SUPPORT, 2-8MB CACHE MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-2078A ISA(LB)-IDE(AT) AT(VESA) 2HD 2FD 4096 16 B 3/4 AT NS DP8473V >528MB SUPPORT, 2-32MB CACHE MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-4000 ISA-SCSI AT 9HD 2FD B 2/3 AT NS DP8473V SCSI & ST412, 2-32MB CACHE PROMISE TECH. DC-2031 ISA-IDE(AT) AT 2HD 2FD 2048 16 B C FULL AT NS DP8473 .5-16MB CACHE, 16MHz ISA BUS PROMISE TECH. DC-2032 ISA-IDE(AT) AT 4HD 2FD 2048 16 B C FULL AT NS DP8473 .5-16MB CACHE, 16MHz ISA BUS SEAGATE TECH. ST02 ISA-SCSI PC,XT,AT 2HD 2FD 1024 16 B C 1/2 XT NS DP8473 TMC-900,950 (PIO) STORAGE PLUS SPI-300 ISA-SCSI-2 AT 7HD 2FD B C 1/2 XT NS DP8473 SPI300/16 (DMA), 16-BIT TRANTOR SYSTEMS T128F ISA-SCSI AT 7HD 4FD B C 1/2 XT NS DP8473 NCR 5380 (DMA) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 12:24:35 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20111015093325.B87620@shell.lmi.net> > > mystery(char *s, char *t) { > > while(*s++ = *t++) > > ; > > } On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Josh Dersch wrote: > And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds > checking :). It DOES. As much as C "normally" does. (Bounds checking is not often considered important in C! It is EASY to crash almost any program that uses scanf(), or even gets() for keyboard input! ) It will continue until the value that has been copied is 0 It IS the code, that you've probably been using all along, of strcpy() . And THAT is the level of bounds checking that the "standard library function" has. BUT, I would prefer swapping 's' and 't' throughout the example, to make it easier for those not familiar with it to be able to think of them as "source" and "target". When I taught "Data Structures and Algorithms In C", meaningful variable names DID help students to follow what was going on. After we finished that (building a string copy from array notation spread out to THAT, and a trivial strcmp() ), we spent the rest of that lecture on "alphabetic order". Yeah, you know alphabetic order. Yeah. SURE. Q: But can you recite it backwards, WITHOUT SINGING, standing on one leg? A: Not while sober. Which order do YOU think the following belong in? (and why?) (and what order matches a sort based on strcmp() ? (and why?) ) : New York new compiler newsworthy two three (a hint) new world (deliberate white space, as a hint for New York/Newton) Int21h Newark C : An Introduction (proper bibliographic punctuation of subtitle) C: An Introduction Int3h New Hampshire Newton 800 Software (and WHERE in the phonebook was it (it was a real company)) 99 Ranch Market (and WHERE in the phonebook (it is a real chain)) (The college discontinued "advanced" programming classes while phone books still existed) Then they had an assignment (due in 2 weeks, but with discussion next week) to write their own strcmp() that could, under program control: ignore/pay attention to case ignore/pay attention to NUMERALS put numbers in numeric order, even if not at beginning/end of item place numerals in ASCII/numerical/phone book order ignore/pay attention to space ("order by letter"/"order by word" to OLDER librarians) ignore/pay attention to other "white space" and any other arbitrary characters Since strcmp()'s return value is "normally" only checked for 0 / <0 / >0 , I introduced them to the concept that it COULD, instead of a simple subtraction, return packed bitfield that would could be used by the calling routine to mimic strcmp(), but by masking bits (an earlier lecture) could identify if something was a match except for case, etc. The next lecture started in on sorting and searching algorithms. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 12:25:30 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 11:25:30 -0600 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E99C20A.5090706@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2011 10:50 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 15 Oct 2011, at 18:20 , Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I'm certainly able to keep track of my own arrays, surely you are as well. ;) > > You'd be surprised at the number of people that can't find their own array bounds with both hands. malloc and friends I think are a greater evil than null terminated strings. > .tsooJ > Ben From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 12:26:02 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:26:02 -0400 Subject: Web browsers on PPC - Re: TenFourFox is awesome In-Reply-To: <201110151639.p9FGdiUL009302@floodgap.com> References: <201110151639.p9FGdiUL009302@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E99C22A.6000709@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 12:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Right now as we speak I'm writing a POWER macroassembler for Mozilla's >>> JavaScript interpreter, which turns bytecodes into one:many POWER assembly >>> instructions. I'm modelling the memory access on SPARC and the ALU work on >>> ARM. It's going to be a curious hybrid when I'm finished (about 33%). >> >> Are you writing this up anywhere? Sounds interesting. > > I'll probably release it back to Mozilla for inclusion in the Firefox tree > (it will be in TenFourFox, I'm planning for 9), although the tracer that is > already in TenFourFox is already obsolete, so it's kind of not worth it > sometimes. -_- > >> TenFourFox* is awesome, by the way. >> >> You might want to add on its homepage that Opera has also abandoned >> PowerPC, but never even finished debugging the most recent and >> crash-prone PPC releases, adding insult to injury. > > I'm trying to accentuate the positive :) I only mean to add Opera to the list of browsers that abandoned PPC (Mozilla, Safari, etc). > > That said, I see few people in PPC land hanging onto Opera. People seem to > prefer Camino, Firefox 3.6 or Safari. That is probably because Opera on PowerPC is very unreliable. In other respects, it's not too bad (fast, modern). > I don't know why more people don't > use OmniWeb; it's quite good and is my choice when I have to use WebKit. > I used it on NEXTSTEP but not on Mac. What kind of standards level is it at? Its JavaScript engine would be a bit behind the majors? --Toby From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 12:31:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:31:58 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9765CF.25580.2E07294@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E99611E.9032.5DAC0A@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2011 at 9:58, Al Kossow wrote: > Here are all of the ISA controllers with a DP8473, extracted from an > old controller list AHA-1542Bs show up at Weird Stuff fairly often. If > you need one to read the Altos floppies, LMK. The list is quite incomplete. For example, Ultrastor ISA SCSI cards used it (I have a 14N, for example that even supports 3 drives on the same cable). Many DTC controllers can do likewise, though the FDC often bears a DTC part number. There are also some MFM and RLL and ESDI controllers that use the same chip, but I'd have to go back and check my notes. I have a DTC ESDI controller here that will support 4 floppy drives on a single "flat" cable, for example. DTK offered their "Mini micro" floppy controllers, primarily for adding high-density support to XT-class systems; they also used the 8473. I've seen a couple on eBay. FWIW, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 12:34:32 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> > > mystery(char *s, char *t) { > > while(*s++ = *t++) > > ; > > } On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Josh Dersch wrote: > And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds > checking :). In C, what happens when you do: char A[1000]; char * t; char * s; strcpy(A,"anything"); t = &A[0]; s = &A[1]; strcpy(t,s); /*to delete a character*/ printf("%s",A); t = &A[1]; s = &A[0]; strcpy(t,s); /*to insert a character*/ printf("%s",A); Why? How SHOULD you do it? In C, if you want ANY error checking, then YOU have to put it in, thus making it an inappropriate language for beginners to write operating systems in. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 15 12:42:06 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web browsers on PPC - Re: TenFourFox is awesome In-Reply-To: <4E99C22A.6000709@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Oct 15, 11 01:26:02 pm" Message-ID: <201110151742.p9FHg6jV012142@floodgap.com> > > I don't know why more people don't > > use OmniWeb; it's quite good and is my choice when I have to use WebKit. > > I used it on NEXTSTEP but not on Mac. What kind of standards level is it > at? Its JavaScript engine would be a bit behind the majors? OmniWeb today is essentially a WebKit shell with additional features. I like its bookmark management, and it supports Gopher protocol, which for me personally is a huge plus. :) It has a distinct advantage over other WebKit shells like, e.g., iCab, in that it includes its own WebKit components and does not rely on the system-installed version. Thus, on 10.4, you can get a WebKit equivalent to Safari 5. The JavaScript engine is standard SquirrelFish (JavaScriptCore). Other than TenFourFox, there are no native code JavaScript compilers for PPC. The PPC SquirrelFish is a bytecode compiler only. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't walk a mile in their shoes. They smell funny. ---------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 15 12:46:56 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:46:56 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E99611E.9032.5DAC0A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9765CF.25580.2E07294@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> <4E99611E.9032.5DAC0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E99C710.5060501@bitsavers.org> On 10/15/11 10:31 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Oct 2011 at 9:58, Al Kossow wrote: > > >> Here are all of the ISA controllers with a DP8473, extracted from an >> old controller list AHA-1542Bs show up at Weird Stuff fairly often. If >> you need one to read the Altos floppies, LMK. > > The list is quite incomplete. That's what I found after a quick search. No one else has posted a list here. The DTK card is a PII-151B http://www.ebay.com/itm/200657851555 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 12:50:12 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:50:12 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 1:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >... > > ... > In C, if you want ANY error checking, then YOU have to put it in, thus > making it an inappropriate language for beginners to write operating > systems in. > Even moreso, applications - the point I was trying to make earlier. --Toby > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 12:53:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99C20A.5090706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> <4E99C20A.5090706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20111015105242.R87620@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, ben wrote: > malloc and friends I think are a greater evil than null terminated strings. You would think that by "Service Pack 2", that all instances of allocating space would have corresponding de-allocation, . . . From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 13:00:14 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:00:14 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <967B28F8-4619-447B-8EDE-2A935CDC371F@gmail.com> On 15 Oct 2011, at 19:34 , Fred Cisin wrote: > [?] an inappropriate language for beginners to write operating > systems in. LOL .tsooJ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 13:04:54 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:04:54 -0400 Subject: Web browsers on PPC - Re: TenFourFox is awesome In-Reply-To: <201110151742.p9FHg6jV012142@floodgap.com> References: <201110151742.p9FHg6jV012142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E99CB46.1060408@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 1:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I don't know why more people don't >>> use OmniWeb; it's quite good and is my choice when I have to use WebKit. >> >> I used it on NEXTSTEP but not on Mac. What kind of standards level is it >> at? Its JavaScript engine would be a bit behind the majors? > > OmniWeb today is essentially a WebKit shell with additional features. I like > its bookmark management, and it supports Gopher protocol, which for me > personally is a huge plus. :) > > It has a distinct advantage over other WebKit shells like, e.g., iCab, > in that it includes its own WebKit components and does not rely on the > system-installed version. Thus, on 10.4, you can get a WebKit equivalent to > Safari 5. > > The JavaScript engine is standard SquirrelFish (JavaScriptCore). Other than > TenFourFox, there are no native code JavaScript compilers for PPC. The > PPC SquirrelFish is a bytecode compiler only. > Thanks for the info! I will check it out, as I run 10.4 on G4, and 10.5 on G5. --Toby From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 13:12:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 11:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> > > > > ... > > In C, if you want ANY error checking, then YOU have to put it in, thus > > making it an inappropriate language for beginners to write operating > > systems in. > > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > Even moreso, applications - the point I was trying to make earlier. In C, you can have as much and as thorough error checking as you want. The REAL problem is that too many people who are employed as programmers don't understand the importance of error checking, and it isn't adequately taught in college classes! In MY "Data Structures and Algorithms in C" class, there were COMPLAINTS that I spent class time teaching error checking as a fundamental component of all algorithms. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 13:15:19 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 11:15:19 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl> <4E852EF8.4020001@mail.msu.edu> <4E97B374.8070705@mail.msu.edu> <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > It's your controller. ?Those sectors are MFM and 128 bytes long. > > You *can* read these with a controller that uses the National Semi > DP8473 controller. ?NEC and Intel pretty much screwed up 128 byte MFM > sectors. > > --Chuck Any idea of the 128-byte MFM sector capabiltiy was carried forward into the National Semi PC87306 SuperI/O? The system that I setup for using ImageDisk uses that chip. Ok, after a couple of minutes of searching on the web I found my own answer. The Registry found here lists two motherboards with PC87306 which both list 128-byte sector support: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm The 'X' test (Double-Density with 128 bytes sectors) checks a capability that is used by very few disk formats, and for most people, not having it will not be a significant drawback. (Which is good, because the original NEC-765 PC controller, and most later chips based on this design don't support it). --------------------- Mainboard / Controller Listings ----------------------- S = Single Density P = Passed D = Double Density F = Failed X = Double Density / 128 byte sectors N = Not tested Data rate 250 300 500 Manufacturer Model FDC chip Class SDX SDX SDX ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- IBM 658695T PC87306 P1 PPP PPP PPP QDI P51430VX-250 ExplorerII NS PC87306 P1 PPP PPP PPP From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 13:15:34 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 11:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: setjmp()/longjmp() (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <4E98DE3C.3000203@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E9864CF.9010107@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E98DE3C.3000203@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20111015111450.D87620@shell.lmi.net> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > position? examine the code to study what conditions would require it! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 13:25:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 11:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111015112216.A87620@shell.lmi.net> > > while(*s++ = *t++) On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the most evil programming conventions ever foisted on the > computer community--null-terminated character strings. While I'm > sure that Messrs. K&R didn't intend it to become a hard-and-fast > convention, it served to hammer young minds into thinking that way. > Before C and its ilk, did *any* language's compiler store character > strings that way, howzbout: not a COMPILER, but, . . . function 9 of MS-DOS and CP/M, that uses '$' terminated strings! There are many ways to store a string. Terminating character requires a little bit of extra care, but are the others much better? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 13:41:19 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:41:19 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E99D3CF.5060609@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 2:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> In C, if you want ANY error checking, then YOU have to put it in, thus >>> making it an inappropriate language for beginners to write operating >>> systems in. >>> > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> Even moreso, applications - the point I was trying to make earlier. > > In C, you can have as much and as thorough error checking as you want. In C*, you can do that, indeed. In C*, it is possible to write code without buffer overflows, memory leaks, or segfaulting bugs of any kind, if one cares to invest enough effort. The point is that it's a lot of unnecessary work for no real payoff. Higher level languages lets one turn attention sooner to the problem domain (and besides, typically offer more powerful modelling abstractions).? Does this really need spelling out?? --T * substitute "assembly language" if preferred. ? I'm not saying use HLLs for ALL applications where C* is used. Just, say, 95% of them. > > > The REAL problem is that too many people who are employed as > programmers don't understand the importance of error checking, > and it isn't adequately taught in college classes! > In MY "Data Structures and Algorithms in C" class, there were COMPLAINTS > that I spent class time teaching error checking as a fundamental component > of all algorithms. > > > From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 15 13:46:52 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:46:52 -0400 Subject: blocking ads (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E977169.5060404@gmail.com> References: , <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> <4E9728FF.4080001@verizon.net> <4E977169.5060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E99D51C.4000100@arachelian.com> On 10/13/2011 07:16 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Keith M wrote: >> I can vouch for Adblock+ and NoScript. Adblock+ is truly great and >> truly transparent. You won't even know its there --- you just wont >> see any more ads. Manually adding blocks is easy. > > Horribly OT, but I keep wondering about the overhead of that. There > must be some grunt-work involved just to see if a URL matches > something in its block list, however minor. With the enormous list of > sites / domains that it must have to filter these days, that overhead > *might* be noticeable to a user (vs. what it would be like if there > weren't the offending items in the source markup in the first place). What's more noticeable? Waiting for 3-4 large bandwidth consuming ads to load from various places while 1x1 pixel flash and images load from 3-4 other places and various tracking cookies to be set and fetched so that animated targeted ads can bounce up and down, or processing every HREF through a filter in memory at CPU speed? If anything I'd bet that the CPU power wasted on displaying animated ads is far higher than that "wasted" on a bunch regexps preventing that crap from loading in the first place. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 13:59:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 11:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99D3CF.5060609@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99D3CF.5060609@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111015115025.R87620@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > In C*, you can do that, indeed. In C*, it is possible to write code Is C* like C# ? > without buffer overflows, memory leaks, or segfaulting bugs of any kind, > if one cares to invest enough effort. > The point is that it's a lot of unnecessary work for no real payoff. "unnecessary"???????? "no real payoff"??????? HARRUMPH! I think that having an Operating System, AND having applications, that are reliable IS a major payoff, and whatever work it takes for THAT is extremeley NECESSARY. > Higher level languages lets one turn attention sooner to the problem > domain (and besides, typically offer more powerful modelling abstractions).? That is at the expense of extreme slowdown from runtime error checking that includes checking for situations that could not occur. For example, if the divisor is going to be either 12 or 16, is it really necessary to have runtime code on the nature of: Y = 12; if (y == 0) . . . . . Z = X / Y; C lets you put in all of the error checking that you need, and lets you leave out the error checking that you don't need. But, obviously, SOME people employed as programmers don't know the difference, and really should be using "padded cell" high level languages, instead! Some of them are incompetent when it comes to understanding what kinds of exceptions need to be planned for. > Does this really need spelling out?? Naah. I think that we agree on all of the truly important stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 14:01:21 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015112216.A87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> <20111015112216.A87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111015115953.Y87620@shell.lmi.net> > function 9 of MS-DOS and CP/M, that uses '$' terminated strings! For those who think that this is off-topic, I am specifically referring to Ritchie and to Gary Kildall. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 14:02:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:02:02 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015112216.A87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111015112216.A87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2011 at 11:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > howzbout: > not a COMPILER, but, . . . > function 9 of MS-DOS and CP/M, that uses '$' terminated strings! > > There are many ways to store a string. Terminating character requires > a little bit of extra care, but are the others much better? Sure--the strings that employ descriptors are particularly great-- there's no need to figure out the length of a string before doing anything with it. On RISC systems with wide words, one can move a string very quickly, without having to look at it byte-byte for a terminator. In compiling, string descriptors allow for the "pooling" of constants having common substrings. For example, the string: "Oregon is bordered by Washington, Idaho, Nevada and California" allows for the sharing of substrings without duplication. I'm well aware of CP/M function 9--and the inability to print a "$" using it. CDC SCOPE/KRONOS/MACE used 6-bit characters. There were some operating system functions that terminated character records on a 00 (octal) byte. Unfortunately, the 63-character set lacked a colon, so one was introduced for octal 00 and the definition of a coded (i.e. character) record altered to "terminated by zero in the low-order 12 bits of of the final word". Then double colons created problems of their own, for which no one had any satisfactory answers, except "don't do it". SCOPE 2 on the 7600 used length-prefix character records (W type) and the problem was completely unknown to them. Furthermore, you could query the device being read from ahead of time to obtain the length of the current record. (I think DEC FORTRAN had that feature with their Q format designator). How many new "C" programmers have made the mistake of thinking that strlen() returns the total length of a string (including the delimiter)? Take the original example in C: while( *a++=*b++); Now execute the snippet with two pointers that create an overlapping move, such that the null terminator of the source string is destroyed The string move eats its tail, clobbering evertyhing in its path. That would never happen with descriptor-based strings. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 14:07:18 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:07:18 -0400 Subject: blocking ads (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E99D51C.4000100@arachelian.com> References: , <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> <4E9728FF.4080001@verizon.net> <4E977169.5060404@gmail.com> <4E99D51C.4000100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E99D9E6.2010709@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 2:46 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 10/13/2011 07:16 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Keith M wrote: >>> I can vouch for Adblock+ and NoScript. Adblock+ is truly great and >>> truly transparent. You won't even know its there --- you just wont >>> see any more ads. Manually adding blocks is easy. >> >> Horribly OT, but I keep wondering about the overhead of that. There >> must be some grunt-work involved just to see if a URL matches >> something in its block list, however minor. With the enormous list of >> sites / domains that it must have to filter these days, that overhead >> *might* be noticeable to a user (vs. what it would be like if there >> weren't the offending items in the source markup in the first place). > > What's more noticeable? Waiting for 3-4 large bandwidth consuming ads > to load from various places while 1x1 pixel flash and images load from > 3-4 other places and various tracking cookies to be set and fetched so > that animated targeted ads can bounce up and down, or processing every > HREF through a filter in memory at CPU speed? :) > > If anything I'd bet that the CPU power wasted on displaying animated ads > is far higher than that "wasted" on a bunch regexps preventing that crap > from loading in the first place. Oh, ONLY by a few orders of magnitude! --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 14:17:38 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:17:38 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015115025.R87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99D3CF.5060609@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015115025.R87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E99DC52.3010500@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 2:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> In C*, you can do that, indeed. In C*, it is possible to write code > > Is C* like C# ? >> without buffer overflows, memory leaks, or segfaulting bugs of any kind, >> if one cares to invest enough effort. >> The point is that it's a lot of unnecessary work for no real payoff. > > "unnecessary"???????? > "no real payoff"??????? > > HARRUMPH! > I think that having an Operating System, AND having applications, that are > reliable IS a major payoff, and whatever work it takes for THAT is > extremeley NECESSARY. You completely misunderstood. I am saying that doing general applications programming in C incurs unnecessary work micromanaging for reliability. A good part of this is "unnecessary" because it is obviated by making different choices. > >> Higher level languages lets one turn attention sooner to the problem >> domain (and besides, typically offer more powerful modelling abstractions).? > > That is at the expense of extreme slowdown from runtime error checking > that includes checking for situations that could not occur. For example, > if the divisor is going to be either 12 or 16, is it really necessary to > have runtime code on the nature of: > > Y = 12; > if (y == 0) . . . . . > Z = X / Y; > This isn't the kind of high level distinction that I am talking about. An example of the kind of leap forward that I have in mind is garbage collected memory management*, which enables a bunch of other things, such as reliable, general exception mechanisms. > C lets you put in all of the error checking that you need, and lets you > leave out the error checking that you don't need. But, obviously, SOME > people employed as programmers don't know the difference, and really > should be using "padded cell" high level languages, instead! Some of > them are incompetent when it comes to understanding what kinds of > exceptions need to be planned for. I don't think only "incompetents" should avoid C. I think anyone should avoid it, who is interested in solving *their* problems efficiently, and not re-inventing badly those supporting facilities that C does not provide. There a category of incompetence in not choosing the right tool. Even Dave agrees! > > > >> Does this really need spelling out?? > Naah. > I think that we agree on all of the truly important stuff. Phew! --Toby > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 15 14:29:54 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:29:54 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9640D1.7090309@neurotica.com> <4E9717EC.3715.1B033DC@cclist.sydex.com> <4E977E84.10804@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9724FE.5022.1E3427A@cclist.sydex.com> <20111014063727.GB32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E983909.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E99DF32.6070007@arachelian.com> On 10/14/2011 11:49 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > Funny how C is climbing back up the popularity chart > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html > > Are coders and managers realizing that the hype on the "high level" > languages on speed of development > causing real slow downs in performance and having to go back to the > Real Thing TM. > Long Live C :) I sure hope so. Two jobs ago, I had to deal with a financial that had half their customers on one node of a VCS cluster, and have on the other running the same application. That application, in Java, had a few hundred thousand threads. No, I'm not kidding. This thing interfaced with MQ and of course had one thread per queue. Each client had something like 10 threads total, some MQ listeners, some to send results back to the client, some to do various other things, and in QA, for each client, there was a complete fictional counterparty, complete with its own set of threads. Of course, there were also pools of threads for database connectivity too. We couldn't throw more memory at the problem since the JVM at the time had a limit of 2GB. The only thing to do was to chop the application up into different VMs. Which of course would fail in their own interesting ways. Of course the incompetent programmers there decided to not use MQ for these JVMs to talk to each other - they used something MQ-like that the JVM had built in and spoke over http. Why? I've no idea, but this bridge went down quite often and required bouncing also. You can image what a clusterfuck that was in terms of both performance and debugability. There were monthly out of memory crashes as some run away thread didn't release memory. These were usually caused by running out of database threads. Whenever the db portion of the platform ran out of threads, for some reason the app decided that it should spawn of a thread for every incoming request. Or maybe that's what it normally did and I didn't notice it because when things were working that thread shut itself down after the request was processed. One very famous problem at that place was solved when they actually hired the one and single competent java programmer. Of course, he has since left there too. The problem had to do with padding strings with spaces in some report so that it would be exactly X bytes wide. It turns out that if you do it in a loop and append a space to the end, java creates X-len copies of that string, and each one has to be garbage collected, and of course was insanley slow. I think he simply invoked Java's version of printf to solve this. :-D I don't play programmer in my day jobs, though I can code in C and a few other languages. My role at that place, and in the current one is sysadmin. As incompetent programmers are apt to, they go and blame the database, or the network, or Veritas Cluster Server, or Solaris, or the hardware, anything but their own code. A lot of my time was spent *proving* that these other things were infact functioning as they should and that the programmers needed to re-examine their code. I probably spent more time looking at the stderr and stdout of the JVMs than the clowns that wrote that crappy code. Because this thing was so crappy and so likely to crash, it ran in production with the debug level in log4j fairly high, which produced gigabyte sized logs every hour, and of course slowed down the application by several orders of magnitude (of course the SAN got really slow due to so much crap being written to disk, and the programmers were blaming the SAN for the slowness of their app!) One of the big projects before I left there, was for the good programmers to go through the miles of code and to disable logging in places it was no longer needed. :-) A few days ago, I posted a message here about creeping layers of abstractions. The above is what you get when that's taken to absurd levels. What drives this? Corporations that want replaceable cheap cogs, that is one programmer to be identical to another so they can be replaced by cheaper ones, either in the same market, or outsourced overseas. They love java because everything is handed to them on a silver platter and they don't have to learn how linked lists or hash tables or quick sort or anything else actually work. They just say new foo bar and use that with no consideration to the performance implications. When it breaks, they've no idea why, or how, let alone how to go about fixing it. Had these guys tried to write this kind of thing in pure C it would have probably never compiled, or would have segfaulted every two seconds, thus pointing out their failures. But because it was Java, and Java is easy to learn, the company felt compelled to hire young guys who barely went through some Java 101 class and threw them at a financial app that supposedly processed billions of dollars per year. If you're a young guy looking at learning to code for a living, I highly recommend you learn what corporations consider esoteric languages instead, and either find a place that welcomes them, or start your own company. Learn C, and assembly then either smalltalk or lisp. I'm not saying that this is the state of the art in Java or other high level languages, but rather, because it's easy to learn, it allows this kind of incompetence to be acceptable. I'm glad I don't work there anymore, and instead work in sane place for and with bright people with a clue. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Oct 15 14:32:15 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:32:15 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E99DFBF.6060302@mail.msu.edu> On 10/15/2011 10:34 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> mystery(char *s, char *t) { >>> while(*s++ = *t++) >>> ; >>> } > On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Josh Dersch wrote: >> And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds >> checking :). > In C, what happens when you do: > > char A[1000]; > char * t; > char * s; > > strcpy(A,"anything"); > > t =&A[0]; > s =&A[1]; > strcpy(t,s); /*to delete a character*/ > printf("%s",A); > > t =&A[1]; > s =&A[0]; > strcpy(t,s); /*to insert a character*/ > printf("%s",A); Depends on the compiler and the C-runtime, I suppose. All of the documentation I have suggests that the behavior of strcpy is undefined when the strings being copied overlap. > > > Why? > How SHOULD you do it? > In C, if you want ANY error checking, then YOU have to put it in, thus > making it an inappropriate language for beginners to write operating > systems in. > So no C runtime libraries do any error checking for you? That's not true. I'm pretty sure fopen() won't return you a file handle pointing into the ether (and scribbling all over the disk if the programmer chooses to use it) if the user asked to open a file without checking to see if it existed first. I appreciate (and understand) the notion that for absolute performance, automatic bounds checking of arrays can be an impediment. I also know that all people make mistakes, no matter how hard they try and how long they've been writing operating systems. And these days, a mistake in bounds checking costs many more people than the developer. C-style strings and the library of runtime functions that support them do not make anyone's lives easier in the correctness department, due to issues inherent in the design (as has been mentioned by others on this list). Where I work, strcpy (and their ilk) are verboten; we use variants like strcpy_s to prevent inadvertent buffer overflows, since it does the validation we'd have to do manually anyway and it's guaranteed to work properly. And it's not like our code spends 99% of its time copying strings, so the performance hit is approximately zero. - Josh > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 15 14:40:49 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:40:49 -0400 Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110141932.p9EJWqfN014304@floodgap.com> References: <201110141932.p9EJWqfN014304@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E99E1C1.3030403@arachelian.com> On 10/14/2011 03:32 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > My favourite example of how coding practices today are killing performance is > Mozilla bug 684559, in which they replaced the perfectly good and heavily > optimized PCRE library with the YARR interpreter. Nobody really cared because > YARR was "more elegant." > Mine is this guy: on OS X, Firefox used to hang quite often. This bug has been there for ages and has gone from one version of Firefox to another. I see emails of new bugs at the rate of one or two per month being closed as dupes of this. Yet, it still has not been fixed! https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476541 (Most noticeable when you're downloading something and it fails while you have a File-Save dialog open. If you do anything other than hit ESC or Enter, the two dialog boxes hang firefox.) Another favorite is if you save a web page that has stuff in it that can't be saved, the download window pops up multiple instances of "Could not download foobar.html" - one for each item that failed. It's just like whack-a-mole! What crappy code... sigh... From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 15 14:54:23 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99E1C1.3030403@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Oct 15, 11 03:40:49 pm" Message-ID: <201110151954.p9FJsNMN013252@floodgap.com> > Mine is this guy: on OS X, Firefox used to hang quite often. This bug > has been there for ages and has gone from one version of Firefox to > another. I see emails of new bugs at the rate of one or two per month > being closed as dupes of this. Yet, it still has not been fixed! > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476541 Actually, it has been mitigated somewhat since Firefox 4 now that all content-generated dialogues are non-modal. But this is still true if chrome (say, an extension) uses a modal sheet. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "And when I have understanding of computers, I shall be the Supreme Being." From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Oct 15 16:16:20 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:16:20 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> <4E9765CF.25580.2E07294@cclist.sydex.com> <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E99F824.5070105@mail.msu.edu> On 10/15/2011 9:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/13/11 10:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> A lot of Ultrastor, DTC and Future Domain controllers use it. If >> you have one of the DTK Mini-micro floppy controllers, you'll find it >> there as well. >> > > Here are all of the ISA controllers with a DP8473, extracted from an > old controller list > AHA-1542Bs show up at Weird Stuff fairly often. If you need one to > read the Altos floppies, LMK. Thanks, Al! I'll have to check my box of ISA cards, I have a few Adaptec AHA-15XX cards, maybe I actually have one that's on your list. I think I may actually have the Trantor T128F installed in an XT somewhere... (And as a side note, I had a chance to make a detour and a short visit to WeirdStuff on my cross-country road trip this summer. Wish I'd had more than 20 minutes to browse around (and more room in the car!) ...) - Josh > > ADAPTEC AHA-1522 ISA-SCSI > AT 7HD 2FD B 1/2 XT NS DP8473 > AIC 6260 (PIO) PROGRAMMED I/O > ADAPTEC AHA-1542B ISA-SCSI > AT 7HD 2FD B C 3/4 XT NS DP8473 > AIC 6250 (BUS MASTER) 1ST PARTY DMA > BUSLOGIC BT-542B ISA-SCSI-2 > AT 7HD 2FD B C 1/2 AT NS DP8473 > NCR 53C94 (BUS MASTER) > BUSLOGIC BT-542D ISA-SCSI-2FD > AT 7HD 2FD B C FULL AT NS DP8473 > NCR 53C94 BUS MASTER, DIFFERENTIAL SCSI > BUSLOGIC BT-542S ISA-SCSI-2F > AT 7HD 2FD B C FULL AT NS DP8473 > NCR 53C94 BUS MASTER, 2.88MB FLOPPY > BUSLOGIC BT-742A EISA-SCSI-2 > EISA 7HD 2FD B C 1/2 AT NS DP8473 > NCR 53C94 BUS MASTER,PASSIVE TERMINATION > C.S.C. FASTCACHE 32 ISA-SCSI > AT 7HD 4FD B C FULL AT NS DP8473 > NCR 53C400 256K-8MB CACHE (STD. SIMMs) > FUTURE DOMAIN TMC-1670 ISA-SCSI-2F > AT 7HD 2HD B C HALF XT NS DP8473 > TMC-1800 (PIO), 8KB DUAL BUFFER > FUTURE DOMAIN TMC-1680 ISA-SCSI-2F > AT 7HD 4FD B C HALF XT NS DP8473 > TMC-1800 (PIO), 8KB BUFFER,*OLD:TMC-950 > FUTURE DOMAIN TMC-885[M] ISA-SCSI > AT 7HD 4FD B C 3/4 XT NS DP8473 > TMC-950 (PIO) > GSI 1495-44-V ISA-ESDI AT > 1:1 4HD 4FD 2046 RS B 3/4 XT NS > DP8473 R/S ECC, CACHE, DISK SHADOWING > MACROTRON SYSTEMS MSI-2010 ISA-SCSI-2 > AT 7HD 2FD B C 1/2 XT SPI300/16 > NS DP8473V > MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-1165A ISA-ESDI AT > 1:1 2HD 2FD 4096 16 56 B 3/4 XT NS > DP8473V 25MHz CHANNEL, 64KB CACHE > MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-1175 ISA-ESDI > AT 2HD 2FD 4096 16 56 B 2/3 XT NS DP8473V > >528MB SUPPORT, 64KB CACHE > MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-2068 ISA-IDE(AT) > AT 2HD 2FD 4096 16 B 3/4 AT NS DP8473V > >528MB SUPPORT, .5-8MB CACHE > MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-2068A ISA-IDE(AT) > AT 2HD 2FD 4096 16 B 3/4 AT NS DP8473V > >528MB SUPPORT, 2-16MB CACHE > MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-2078 ISA(LB)-IDE(AT) > AT(VESA) 2HD 2FD 4096 16 B 3/4 AT NS DP8473V > >528MB SUPPORT, 2-8MB CACHE > MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-2078A ISA(LB)-IDE(AT) > AT(VESA) 2HD 2FD 4096 16 B 3/4 AT NS DP8473V > >528MB SUPPORT, 2-32MB CACHE > MAPLE SYSTEMS MC-4000 ISA-SCSI > AT 9HD 2FD B 2/3 AT NS > DP8473V SCSI & ST412, 2-32MB CACHE > PROMISE TECH. DC-2031 ISA-IDE(AT) > AT 2HD 2FD 2048 16 B C FULL AT NS > DP8473 .5-16MB CACHE, 16MHz ISA BUS > PROMISE TECH. DC-2032 ISA-IDE(AT) > AT 4HD 2FD 2048 16 B C FULL AT NS > DP8473 .5-16MB CACHE, 16MHz ISA BUS > SEAGATE TECH. ST02 ISA-SCSI > PC,XT,AT 2HD 2FD 1024 16 B C 1/2 XT NS DP8473 > TMC-900,950 (PIO) > STORAGE PLUS SPI-300 ISA-SCSI-2 > AT 7HD 2FD B C 1/2 XT NS DP8473 > SPI300/16 (DMA), 16-BIT > TRANTOR SYSTEMS T128F ISA-SCSI > AT 7HD 4FD B C 1/2 XT NS DP8473 > NCR 5380 (DMA) > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 16:49:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:49:55 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99C20A.5090706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> <4E99C20A.5090706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E9A0003.8010906@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2011 01:25 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/15/2011 10:50 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> On 15 Oct 2011, at 18:20 , Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> I'm certainly able to keep track of my own arrays, surely you are as >>> well. ;) >> >> You'd be surprised at the number of people that can't find their own >> array bounds with both hands. > > malloc and friends I think are a greater evil than null terminated strings. If "evil" is defined as "doesn't protect incompetent programmers from themselves", sure, I'd agree with that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 16:54:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:54:58 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015115025.R87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99D3CF.5060609@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015115025.R87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9A0132.9090304@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2011 02:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> In C*, you can do that, indeed. In C*, it is possible to write code > > Is C* like C# ? >> without buffer overflows, memory leaks, or segfaulting bugs of any kind, >> if one cares to invest enough effort. >> The point is that it's a lot of unnecessary work for no real payoff. > > "unnecessary"???????? > "no real payoff"??????? > > HARRUMPH! > I think that having an Operating System, AND having applications, that are > reliable IS a major payoff, and whatever work it takes for THAT is > extremeley NECESSARY. So, hire competent programmers. I realize that has gone out of style in recent years, but it does solve the problem. You can hire people who need all sorts of hand-holding by their compiler because they simply can't handle it themselves, or you can hire people who know what the hell they're doing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 16:57:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:57:52 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111015112216.A87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2011 03:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How many new "C" programmers have made the mistake of thinking that > strlen() returns the total length of a string (including the > delimiter)? > > Take the original example in C: > > while( *a++=*b++); > > Now execute the snippet with two pointers that create an overlapping > move, such that the null terminator of the source string is destroyed > The string move eats its tail, clobbering evertyhing in its path. > That would never happen with descriptor-based strings. The lesson here isn't that C is bad, but that one shouldn't hire a "new" (or "old" but incompetent) programmer. People who know what they're doing simply wouldn't dick around with overlapping copies in the first place. And if they do it accidentally, they know how to fix it. That said, also, some strcpy() and memcpy() implementations do deal with overlapping source/target regions just fine. They're slower, though...once again spending cycles to compensate for the shortcomings of programmers who would be better suited to flipping burgers than writing software. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From shumaker at att.net Sat Oct 15 17:00:45 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:00:45 -0700 Subject: 11/03 system available in Spokane In-Reply-To: <201110151954.p9FJsNMN013252@floodgap.com> References: <201110151954.p9FJsNMN013252@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E9A028D.300@att.net> Listed on CraigList Spokane. PDP 11/03 with 2 Rx02 drives in a cabinet. 2 "winchester" drives included as well. Seller is asking $200 and "wants it gone." System was apparently operational when he acquired it. Item 2636158984 steve From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 17:05:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:05:30 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9A03AA.5000500@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2011 12:50 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> I'm certainly able to keep track of my own arrays, surely you are as well. ;) > > You'd be surprised at the number of people that can't find their own array bounds with both hands. No I wouldn't, actually. I'm constantly amazed and dismayed at the number of burger-flippers who have somehow gotten jobs writing software. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Oct 15 17:09:37 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:09:37 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99DFBF.6060302@mail.msu.edu> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99DFBF.6060302@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E9A04A1.1090102@mail.msu.edu> Hm. For whatever reason this ended up on cctech when I responded, so here it is again on the right list (sorry for the spam if you're on both.) On 10/15/2011 10:34 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> mystery(char *s, char *t) { >>> while(*s++ = *t++) >>> ; >>> } > On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Josh Dersch wrote: >> And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds >> checking . > In C, what happens when you do: > > char A[1000]; > char * t; > char * s; > > strcpy(A,"anything"); > > t =&A[0]; > s =&A[1]; > strcpy(t,s); /*to delete a character*/ > printf("%s",A); > > t =&A[1]; > s =&A[0]; > strcpy(t,s); /*to insert a character*/ > printf("%s",A); Depends on the compiler and the C-runtime, I suppose. All of the documentation I have suggests that the behavior of strcpy is undefined when the strings being copied overlap. > > > Why? > How SHOULD you do it? > In C, if you want ANY error checking, then YOU have to put it in, thus > making it an inappropriate language for beginners to write operating > systems in. > So no C runtime libraries do any error checking for you? That's not true. I'm pretty sure fopen() won't return you a file handle pointing into the ether (and scribbling all over the disk if the programmer chooses to use it) if the user asked to open a file without checking to see if it existed first. I appreciate (and understand) the notion that for absolute performance, automatic bounds checking of arrays can be an impediment. I also know that all people make mistakes, no matter how hard they try and how long they've been writing operating systems. (Anyone who says differently is either lying or hasn't yet found their mistakes.) And these days, a mistake in bounds checking costs many more people than the developer. C-style strings and the library of runtime functions that support them do not make anyone's lives easier in the correctness department, due to issues inherent in the design (as has been mentioned by others on this list). Where I work, strcpy (and their ilk) are verboten; we use variants like strcpy_s to prevent inadvertent buffer overflows, since it does the validation we'd have to do manually anyway and it's guaranteed to work properly. And it's not like our code spends 99% of its time copying strings, so the performance hit is approximately zero. - Josh > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From db at db.net Sat Oct 15 17:39:13 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:39:13 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A0132.9090304@neurotica.com> References: <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99D3CF.5060609@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015115025.R87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E9A0132.9090304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111015223913.GB15916@night.db.net> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 05:54:58PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/15/2011 02:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > >>In C*, you can do that, indeed. In C*, it is possible to write code > > > >Is C* like C# ? > >>without buffer overflows, memory leaks, or segfaulting bugs of any kind, > >>if one cares to invest enough effort. > >>The point is that it's a lot of unnecessary work for no real payoff. > > > >"unnecessary"???????? > >"no real payoff"??????? > > > >HARRUMPH! > >I think that having an Operating System, AND having applications, that are > >reliable IS a major payoff, and whatever work it takes for THAT is > >extremeley NECESSARY. > > So, hire competent programmers. I realize that has gone out of style A bad programmer can write bad code in any language. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 18:07:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:07:45 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015223913.GB15916@night.db.net> References: <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99D3CF.5060609@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015115025.R87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E9A0132.9090304@neurotica.com> <20111015223913.GB15916@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2011, at 6:39 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 05:54:58PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/15/2011 02:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> In C*, you can do that, indeed. In C*, it is possible to write code >>> >>> Is C* like C# ? >>>> without buffer overflows, memory leaks, or segfaulting bugs of any kind, >>>> if one cares to invest enough effort. >>>> The point is that it's a lot of unnecessary work for no real payoff. >>> >>> "unnecessary"???????? >>> "no real payoff"??????? >>> >>> HARRUMPH! >>> I think that having an Operating System, AND having applications, that are >>> reliable IS a major payoff, and whatever work it takes for THAT is >>> extremeley NECESSARY. >> >> So, hire competent programmers. I realize that has gone out of style > > A bad programmer can write bad code in any language. Yes, most definitely. C gives people enough rope to hang themselves. Such people could use some hangin'. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 19:56:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:56:27 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2011 at 17:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > That said, also, some strcpy() and memcpy() implementations do deal > with overlapping source/target regions just fine. They're slower, > though...once again spending cycles to compensate for the shortcomings > of programmers who would be better suited to flipping burgers than > writing software. And sometimes there are functions that are guaranteed to work, no matter the overlap (e.g. memmove() vs. memcpy() ). But what kind of person would use the given sample loop, rather than a library routine? When working with C on an unfamiliar platform, I study the generated code both to get a handle on how the compiler handles code generation for the platform. I realize that this is probably considered to be "old fashioned" however. C was a great assembler for the PDP-11, but for other platforms, maybe not so much. How, for example, do you implement byte pointers on hardware that only addresses words? (e.g. Cray 1). Most 8080 Cs were perfectly dreadful--and I've been surprised to see C implementations on 8-bit PIC hardware. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 19:57:16 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:57:16 -0500 Subject: blocking ads (was Re: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011) In-Reply-To: <4E99D51C.4000100@arachelian.com> References: , <011201cc8928$8210d4a0$6cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E96F56E.7040301@arachelian.com> <4E96AC5B.28059.C0564@cclist.sydex.com> <4E971B7B.7030008@arachelian.com> <4E9728FF.4080001@verizon.net> <4E977169.5060404@gmail.com> <4E99D51C.4000100@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E9A2BEC.2030108@gmail.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 10/13/2011 07:16 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Keith M wrote: >>> I can vouch for Adblock+ and NoScript. Adblock+ is truly great and >>> truly transparent. You won't even know its there --- you just wont >>> see any more ads. Manually adding blocks is easy. >> Horribly OT, but I keep wondering about the overhead of that. There >> must be some grunt-work involved just to see if a URL matches >> something in its block list, however minor. With the enormous list of >> sites / domains that it must have to filter these days, that overhead >> *might* be noticeable to a user (vs. what it would be like if there >> weren't the offending items in the source markup in the first place). > > What's more noticeable? Waiting for 3-4 large bandwidth consuming ads > to load from various places while 1x1 pixel flash and images load from > 3-4 other places and various tracking cookies to be set and fetched so > that animated targeted ads can bounce up and down, or processing every > HREF through a filter in memory at CPU speed? Oh yes, I don't disagree there - something like Adblock is *far* less of an overhead than the ads themselves. But it's still an overhead. If the folks who provide the ads in the first place appreciated that I'm never going to buy any product whose ad appears in my browser window, then I wouldn't need adblock and therefore there wouldn't be any overhead at all ;-) It's the lesser of two evils - but it'd be nicer if there were no evils at all :-) cheers J. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 20:05:39 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:05:39 -0600 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A03AA.5000500@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> <4E9A03AA.5000500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9A2DE3.509@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2011 4:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/15/2011 12:50 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>> I'm certainly able to keep track of my own arrays, surely you are as >>> well. ;) >> >> You'd be surprised at the number of people that can't find their own >> array bounds with both hands. > > No I wouldn't, actually. I'm constantly amazed and dismayed at the > number of burger-flippers who have somehow gotten jobs writing software. > > -Dave > Well you can add one more to that list, I know a great burger flipper and a fair Pascal programmer on the side. You can always get a job with burgers, but computers change so fast now days. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 20:07:37 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:07:37 -0600 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015223913.GB15916@night.db.net> References: <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <20111015102622.F87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99C7D4.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015110847.V87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99D3CF.5060609@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015115025.R87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E9A0132.9090304@neurotica.com> <20111015223913.GB15916@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4E9A2E59.6010808@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2011 4:39 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: >> So, hire competent programmers. I realize that has gone out of style > > A bad programmer can write bad code in any language. But it takes CLASS to do it in FORTRAN. > - Diane From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 20:15:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:15:01 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A2DE3.509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> <4E9A03AA.5000500@neurotica.com> <4E9A2DE3.509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4131D5F1-AB9D-47E4-AF39-CFD99E6CFDD1@neurotica.com> On Oct 15, 2011, at 9:05 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/15/2011 4:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/15/2011 12:50 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>>> I'm certainly able to keep track of my own arrays, surely you are as >>>> well. ;) >>> >>> You'd be surprised at the number of people that can't find their own >>> array bounds with both hands. >> >> No I wouldn't, actually. I'm constantly amazed and dismayed at the >> number of burger-flippers who have somehow gotten jobs writing software. >> >> > > Well you can add one more to that list, I know a great burger flipper and a fair Pascal > programmer on the side. You can always get a job with burgers, but computers > change so fast now days. They really don't, as far as the skillet we're discussing goes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 20:17:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:17:08 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> On Oct 15, 2011, at 8:56 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 15 Oct 2011 at 17:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> That said, also, some strcpy() and memcpy() implementations do deal >> with overlapping source/target regions just fine. They're slower, >> though...once again spending cycles to compensate for the shortcomings >> of programmers who would be better suited to flipping burgers than >> writing software. > > And sometimes there are functions that are guaranteed to work, no > matter the overlap (e.g. memmove() vs. memcpy() ). > > But what kind of person would use the given sample loop, rather than > a library routine? > > When working with C on an unfamiliar platform, I study the generated > code both to get a handle on how the compiler handles code generation > for the platform. I realize that this is probably considered to be > "old fashioned" however. > > C was a great assembler for the PDP-11, but for other platforms, > maybe not so much. How, for example, do you implement byte > pointers on hardware that only addresses words? (e.g. Cray 1). This is not a fault of C. ;) How would you implement byte pointers on a Cray 1 in some other language? ;) > Most 8080 Cs were perfectly dreadful--and I've been surprised to see > C implementations on 8-bit PIC hardware. Yes, compiler technology has come a really, really long way since the 8080 days. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 20:51:03 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:51:03 -0600 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2011 7:17 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Most 8080 Cs were perfectly dreadful--and I've been surprised to see >> C implementations on 8-bit PIC hardware. > > Yes, compiler technology has come a really, really long way since the 8080 days. But only as cross compilers ... Native C still is painful on the 8080 or 8086. Did the PDP-10 have a good C complier? > -Dave > Ben. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 15 20:54:00 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old clocks Message-ID: Does anyone in here admire/collect old clocks? I want to get a Standard Electric AR-2 slave clock (60s style). I fondly remember that model as the one used at my elementary and junior high schools. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 20:54:13 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 02:54:13 +0100 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 11 October 2011 04:30, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > >> I'm not talking about gzip. I'm talking about compression *in general* >> which means designing your vocabulary and operations to suit the domain in >> question. X11 cannot do this, it's at least one level removed from this >> flexibility - but systems like NeWS *can* too (at least to my recollection), >> and they made X11 look crummy at the time. > > That reminds me of something... ?Would it be practical to bring back > something like NeWS and Display Postscript? ?Could it even be done? Well, Display Postscript evolved into Quartz, which I've read described as essentially being "Display PDF". It's DPS with a lot of simplification and uses an open standard that anybody can create code to read and write without royalties to Adobe. So DPS is not exactly dead or gone - its successor lives on and is the basis of a widely-used, much-admired and loved GUI. OTOH, NeWS sounded fascinating and I've love to see a modern, FOSS reimplementation of it. I think that perhaps it might not be a very good fit for the modern display pipeline though - of a very fast multi-gigaHertz multicore CPU connected closely to a cluster of high-performance very-parallel MIMD GPU cores. Right now, usually, they're on a PCIe card, but AMD is showing the way - its Llano and Bulldozer "Fusion" APUs integrate the GPU onto the same die as the CPU cores. This is the way all CPUs *will* go; it's just that the current Intel offerings have crappy GPUs. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 20:58:48 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A2DE3.509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> <4E99A836.2070504@telegraphics.com.au> <1F186BCB-AC36-43AB-84BF-D8D844FCDFE7@neurotica.com> <4E9A03AA.5000500@neurotica.com> <4E9A2DE3.509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20111015185607.U87620@shell.lmi.net> > No I wouldn't, actually. I'm constantly amazed and dismayed at the > number of burger-flippers who have somehow gotten jobs writing software. I just had a really great burger (and milkshake)! Please, keep the ones that you referred to writing operating systems. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Oct 15 21:02:50 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:02:50 -0700 Subject: old clocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9A3B4A.2050201@mail.msu.edu> I do. I have an old International Time Recording Co. slave clock from the late 1920s in my workroom, it's just awesome looking. (ITR merged with the Computing-Tabulating-Recording company in 1911... they eventually became IBM, so it's even sort of related to classic computing!) Mine's similar to this: http://www.1stdibs.com/furniture_item_detail.php?id=445995 It came out of Grand Rapids Junior College (where my dad still teaches) when they were remodeling one of the buildings. - Josh On 10/15/2011 6:54 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone in here admire/collect old clocks? I want to get a > Standard Electric AR-2 slave clock (60s style). I fondly remember > that model as the one used at my elementary and junior high schools. > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 21:08:27 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 03:08:27 +0100 Subject: old clocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was a proffesional clockmaker for a while. We did mechanical, electric and electronic clock repair and manufacture, till the site closed. Dont forget you will need some form of master clock to drive the slave dial. The drive is a current pulse set to a fixed current and all the dials are in series. Dave Caroline From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 15 21:17:23 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:17:23 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9A3EB3.6040902@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > But what kind of person would use the given sample loop, rather than > a library routine? Someone wanting slightly different behavior. For instance, if they wanted to copy a string into an array of ints rather than an array of chars. There are any number of reasons why someone might look to an example in *the* reference book on the language expecting to find useful code. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 15 21:19:59 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:19:59 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > But only as cross compilers ... Native C still is painful on the 8080 or 8086. > Did the PDP-10 have a good C complier? There were at least two C compilers, but I don't have any experience with them so I can't comment on how good they were. Another C trivia question: if you implement standard C on a PDP-10, a 36-bit machine, what are the permissible sizes (in bits) for the char type? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 21:24:37 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:24:37 -0600 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2011 8:19 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ben wrote: > > But only as cross compilers ... Native C still is painful on the 8080 > or 8086. > > Did the PDP-10 have a good C complier? > > There were at least two C compilers, but I don't have any experience > with them so I can't comment on how good they were. > > Another C trivia question: if you implement standard C on a PDP-10, a > 36-bit machine, what are the permissible sizes (in bits) for the char type? > I don't know about C, but I assume that 7 bit ascii is standard for everybody but IBM 360's. Ben. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 15 21:39:49 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:39:49 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > I don't know about C, but I assume that 7 bit ascii is standard for everybody > but IBM 360's. The PDP-10's native character sets are 7-bit ASCII (originally the 1963 edition) packed five characters to a word, with a leftover bit, and "SIXBIT" which is the 64-character printable subset (not including the lower-case region), packed six character to a word (or sometimes three characters to a half-word). The C standard requires that the character data type fit in a byte (ISO/IEC 9899:1999 sections 3.7.1 and 5.2.1), but byte is simply defined as a unit of data storage large enoguh to hold any member of the basic character set, so that is a tautology. However, the standard also requires that the character type occupy at least 8 bits, that the minimum range for unsigned char is 0 to 255, and that the minimum range for signed char is -127 to +127 (section 5.2.4.2.1). This rules out the use of 6-bit and 7-bit characters, so the native PDP-10 text representation cannot be used as the C standard character type at all. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 21:47:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:47:08 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com>, <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E99E33C.17527.259EF75@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2011 at 21:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is not a fault of C. ;) How would you implement byte pointers > on a Cray 1 in some other language? ;) Lots of early cross-compilers were implemented on all sorts of hardware, starting with something similar to INTEGER A(64) READ(1,100) A 100 FORMAT(80A1) where the first input record consisted of the character set of the language to be compiled. Leaving only one addressing granularity in the hardware simplifies things a whole bunch and makes your programmers work for their bread. Some very clever programming often results. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 21:51:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:51:34 -0400 Subject: old clocks In-Reply-To: <4E9A3B4A.2050201@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E9A3B4A.2050201@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E9A46B6.2060901@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2011 10:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I do. I have an old International Time Recording Co. slave clock from > the late 1920s in my workroom, it's just awesome looking. (ITR merged > with the Computing-Tabulating-Recording company in 1911... they > eventually became IBM, so it's even sort of related to classic computing!) > > Mine's similar to this: > > http://www.1stdibs.com/furniture_item_detail.php?id=445995 > > It came out of Grand Rapids Junior College (where my dad still teaches) > when they were remodeling one of the buildings. Beautiful! -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 15 21:53:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:53:40 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E9A4734.1070500@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2011 10:24 PM, ben wrote: >> Another C trivia question: if you implement standard C on a PDP-10, a >> 36-bit machine, what are the permissible sizes (in bits) for the char >> type? > > I don't know about C, but I assume that 7 bit ascii is standard for > everybody but IBM 360's. A char is generally 8 bits in C, and it has nothing at all to do with ASCII. It's simply an 8-bit integer. And IBM 360s aren't the only systems that don't use ASCII. Also 370s, 390s, and the z/Series right up to the current cutting-edge systems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 21:58:53 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:58:53 -0600 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9A486D.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2011 8:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ben wrote: > > I don't know about C, but I assume that 7 bit ascii is standard for > everybody > > but IBM 360's. > > The PDP-10's native character sets are 7-bit ASCII (originally the 1963 > edition) packed five characters to a word, with a leftover bit, and > "SIXBIT" which is the 64-character printable subset (not including the > lower-case region), packed six character to a word (or sometimes three > characters to a half-word). > > The C standard requires that the character data type fit in a byte > (ISO/IEC 9899:1999 sections 3.7.1 and 5.2.1), but byte is simply defined > as a unit of data storage large enoguh to hold any member of the basic > character set, so that is a tautology. > > However, the standard also requires that the character type occupy at > least 8 bits, that the minimum range for unsigned char is 0 to 255, and > that the minimum range for signed char is -127 to +127 (section 5.2.4.2.1). How ever this is under C triva, not the latest standard of the year. So what does the C-bible say on this? > This rules out the use of 6-bit and 7-bit characters, so the native > PDP-10 text representation cannot be used as the C standard character > type at all. > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 22:00:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:00:24 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A3EB3.6040902@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A3EB3.6040902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E99E658.6767.26615FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2011 at 19:17, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > But what kind of person would use the given sample loop, rather > than > a library routine? > > Someone wanting slightly different behavior. For instance, if they > wanted to copy a string into an array of ints rather than an array of > chars. But the original was stated where both were char*; Ah, the C pointer--the bane of optimizers everywhere. The "but what does it point to?" problems. Did Niklaus Wirth ever have any kind words for C? --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 22:06:04 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:06:04 -0400 Subject: C on word addressed architectures - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9A4A1C.9060301@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 9:17 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 15, 2011, at 8:56 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> On 15 Oct 2011 at 17:57, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> That said, also, some strcpy() and memcpy() implementations do deal >>> with overlapping source/target regions just fine. They're slower, >>> though...once again spending cycles to compensate for the shortcomings >>> of programmers who would be better suited to flipping burgers than >>> writing software. >> >> And sometimes there are functions that are guaranteed to work, no >> matter the overlap (e.g. memmove() vs. memcpy() ). >> >> But what kind of person would use the given sample loop, rather than >> a library routine? >> >> When working with C on an unfamiliar platform, I study the generated >> code both to get a handle on how the compiler handles code generation >> for the platform. I realize that this is probably considered to be >> "old fashioned" however. >> >> C was a great assembler for the PDP-11, but for other platforms, >> maybe not so much. How, for example, do you implement byte >> pointers on hardware that only addresses words? (e.g. Cray 1). > > This is not a fault of C. ;) How would you implement byte pointers on a Cray 1 in some other language? ;) This was indeed done in C compilers on word-addressed architectures, such as DG Nova, which had a software convention for byte addressing. The fact that C targeted word-addressed architectures likely leaves its mark in certain liberalities of the standard. Chris Torek was fond of writing anecdotes about arcane C platforms - google his Usenet posts. --Toby > >> Most 8080 Cs were perfectly dreadful--and I've been surprised to see >> C implementations on 8-bit PIC hardware. > > Yes, compiler technology has come a really, really long way since the 8080 days. > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 22:11:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:11:24 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E99E8EC.6887.27027B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2011 at 19:39, Eric Smith wrote: > However, the standard also requires that the character type occupy at > least 8 bits, that the minimum range for unsigned char is 0 to 255, > and that the minimum range for signed char is -127 to +127 (section > 5.2.4.2.1). > > This rules out the use of 6-bit and 7-bit characters, so the native > PDP-10 text representation cannot be used as the C standard character > type at all. Must an int contain an integral number of chars? Back in the 70s, there were several proposals for supporting 8-bit ANSI and EBCDIC character sets on Cyber 70/170 series of machines with 60-bit words. One such was that a word would contain 7.5 characters. Another proposal was to use only the low-order 48 bits (certain instructions made this very attractive). Another proposal was to go to 10- or 12-bit characters (the latter attractive from an efficient I/O standpoint). What was finally chosen, IIRC, was a mix of 6- and 12-bit character codes, with a 00 code acting as an "escape" for the lowercase set. It was very messy. The Cray-1 COS approach was just to unpack character data into a 1- per-word format, wasting 56 bits out of every word. "Pack" and "unbpack" system read/write calls were available. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 22:11:52 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:11:52 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9A4B78.9030704@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 8:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Oct 2011 at 17:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> That said, also, some strcpy() and memcpy() implementations do deal >> with overlapping source/target regions just fine. They're slower, >> though...once again spending cycles to compensate for the shortcomings >> of programmers who would be better suited to flipping burgers than >> writing software. > > And sometimes there are functions that are guaranteed to work, no > matter the overlap (e.g. memmove() vs. memcpy() ). > > But what kind of person would use the given sample loop, rather than > a library routine? Similar loops, with one or two increments or decrements, are a common idiom, with pointers to a variety of types. Stepping through memory with a fixed quantum is not that crazy, though of course a length condition might be used, per Josh's concern. > > When working with C on an unfamiliar platform, I study the generated > code both to get a handle on how the compiler handles code generation > for the platform. I realize that this is probably considered to be > "old fashioned" however. > > C was a great assembler for the PDP-11, but for other platforms, > maybe not so much. How, for example, do you implement byte > pointers on hardware that only addresses words? (e.g. Cray 1). See my other response. It was certainly done. --Toby > > Most 8080 Cs were perfectly dreadful--and I've been surprised to see > C implementations on 8-bit PIC hardware. > > --Chuck > > From spc at conman.org Sat Oct 15 22:36:45 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:36:45 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> References: <20111015112216.A87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111016033645.GG31799@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > > That said, also, some strcpy() and memcpy() implementations do deal > with overlapping source/target regions just fine. They're slower, > though...once again spending cycles to compensate for the shortcomings > of programmers who would be better suited to flipping burgers than > writing software. memcpy() for non-overlapping areas, memmove() for overlapping areas. strcpy() is undefined for overlapping areas. Also, the second story on this page: http://prog21.dadgum.com/9.html is a rather amusing story about a system version of memcpy() that was faster than a hand-written, non-generic version. -spc (Still likes to program in C) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 22:43:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A486D.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> <4E9A486D.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20111015202630.R87620@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, ben wrote: > > However, the standard also requires that the character type occupy at > > least 8 bits, that the minimum range for unsigned char is 0 to 255, and > > that the minimum range for signed char is -127 to +127 (section 5.2.4.2.1). > > How ever this is under C triva, not the latest standard of the year. > So what does the C-bible say on this? I don't know from no "bible". First edition of K&R explicitly stated that the sizes are NOT fixed, that "int" is whatever size is most practical to implement for the compiler, and that the ONLY given is that "char" must not be a LARGER data type than "int", and that "long" must not be a SMALLER data type than "int". It was quite common for "int" to be signed 16 bit, with "char" being 8 bit (although either signed or unsigned), and "long" was usually signed 32 bit. But K&R explicitly said not to EXPECT that. FAT16, for example used a SIGNED long for both the file size and for the maximum partition size. Therefore, instead of 0 to 4GB, the range was -2GB to +2GB That opens up some interesting possibilities! I stepped on the DIR of a floppy disk, and created a -2GB file. I then copied that file to an almost full hard disk, in order to get more disk space without the DANGERS! of compression. It didn't work. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 22:51:39 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:51:39 -0600 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015202630.R87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> <4E9A486D.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20111015202630.R87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9A54CB.9020204@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2011 9:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > FAT16, for example used a SIGNED long for both the file size and for the > maximum partition size. Therefore, instead of 0 to 4GB, the range was > -2GB to +2GB > That opens up some interesting possibilities! > I stepped on the DIR of a floppy disk, and created a -2GB file. I then > copied that file to an almost full hard disk, in order to get more disk > space without the DANGERS! of compression. It didn't work. > Did you remember the -2GB is for imaginary data when C gets REAL numbers. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 15 22:53:58 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:53:58 -0400 Subject: C on word addressed architectures - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A4A1C.9060301@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A4A1C.9060301@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9A5556.6060604@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/11 11:06 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 15/10/11 9:17 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ...How would you implement byte pointers on >> a Cray 1 in some other language? ;) > > This was indeed done in C compilers on word-addressed architectures, > such as DG Nova, which had a software convention for byte addressing. > The fact that C targeted word-addressed architectures likely leaves its > mark in certain liberalities of the standard. I have a vague recollection that one of these is that sizeof(char) could == sizeof(int). --Toby > > Chris Torek was fond of writing anecdotes about arcane C platforms - > google his Usenet posts. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 23:45:42 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C on word addressed architectures - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A5556.6060604@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A4A1C.9060301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A5556.6060604@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111015214411.Y87620@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > I have a vague recollection that one of these is that sizeof(char) could > == sizeof(int). That is correct. In original K&R, before standards committees, etc., sizeof(char) <= sizeof(int) <= sieof (long) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 16 00:02:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A54CB.9020204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> <4E9A486D.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20111015202630.R87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E9A54CB.9020204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20111015215431.X87620@shell.lmi.net> > > FAT16, for example used a SIGNED long for both the file size and for the > > maximum partition size. Therefore, instead of 0 to 4GB, the range was > > -2GB to +2GB > > That opens up some interesting possibilities! > > I stepped on the DIR of a floppy disk, and created a -2GB file. I then > > copied that file to an almost full hard disk, in order to get more disk > > space without the DANGERS! of compression. It didn't work. On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, ben wrote: > Did you remember the -2GB is for imaginary data when C gets REAL numbers. "COMPLEX" numbers maybe? I always hated having to explain to students that "REAL" numbers in languages such as BASIC were floating point binary approximations, and were absolutely NOT "REAL" numbers. Until about 6 years ago, we actually had a course in "Computer Math", in which we tried to teach students [among other things] how floating point worked. Of course, we had to start by undoing a lot of what they had previously been taught, such as that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 16 00:48:56 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:48:56 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99E658.6767.26615FE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A3EB3.6040902@brouhaha.com> <4E99E658.6767.26615FE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9A7048.90308@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > But the original was stated where both were char*; That's my point. Maybe there's no good reason for someone to use the code unchanged, but if they want to do something slightly different, they might use the code from the book as a starting point. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 16 00:51:38 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:51:38 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99E8EC.6887.27027B1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> <4E99E8EC.6887.27027B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9A70EA.9040102@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > Must an int contain an integral number of chars? Yes. All C types, except bitfields within a structure, must have sizes that are a multiple of the size of the char type. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 16 01:05:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 02:05:00 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9A740C.1010608@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2011 09:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > OTOH, NeWS sounded fascinating and I've love to see a modern, FOSS > reimplementation of it. I think that perhaps it might not be a very > good fit for the modern display pipeline though - of a very fast > multi-gigaHertz multicore CPU connected closely to a cluster of > high-performance very-parallel MIMD GPU cores. > > Right now, usually, they're on a PCIe card, but AMD is showing the way > - its Llano and Bulldozer "Fusion" APUs integrate the GPU onto the > same die as the CPU cores. This is the way all CPUs *will* go; it's > just that the current Intel offerings have crappy GPUs. Be careful with those "all CPUs" assertions; server processors are a pretty big part of the market, and a GPU would be a very expensive useless piece of silicon real estate there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 01:32:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:32:54 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A70EA.9040102@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99E8EC.6887.27027B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A70EA.9040102@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2011 at 22:51, Eric Smith wrote: > Yes. All C types, except bitfields within a structure, must have > sizes that are a multiple of the size of the char type. Wasn't it presumptuous of K&R to assume that the smallest native datum was a char? At the time the spec was being written, there did exist bit-addressable machines, so directly-addressed bit arrays were certainly possible on some hardware. --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 03:31:24 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:31:24 +0100 Subject: C on word addressed architectures - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015214411.Y87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A4A1C.9060301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A5556.6060604@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015214411.Y87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> I have a vague recollection that one of these is that sizeof(char) could >> == sizeof(int). > > That is correct. > In original K&R, before standards committees, etc., > sizeof(char) <= sizeof(int) <= sieof (long) > > > > > I normally create a byte type to be sure of an 8 bit byte. Dave Caroline From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 16 05:58:24 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:58:24 +0200 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9A740C.1010608@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A740C.1010608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111016125824.f499c824.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 02:05:00 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > Be careful with those "all CPUs" assertions; server processors are a > pretty big part of the market, and a GPU would be a very expensive > useless piece of silicon real estate there. Depending on what type of service a server provides, it may use the GPU to do extensive math, offload en/decryption, complex database search algorithms, transcoding of audio / video content on the fly, ... GPUs will evolve into more general purpose coprocessors. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 10:02:20 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:02:20 -0400 Subject: C on word addressed architectures - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A4A1C.9060301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A5556.6060604@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015214411.Y87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9AF1FC.20905@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 4:31 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >>> I have a vague recollection that one of these is that sizeof(char) could >>> == sizeof(int). >> >> That is correct. >> In original K&R, before standards committees, etc., >> sizeof(char)<= sizeof(int)<= sieof (long) >> >> >> >> >> > > I normally create a byte type to be sure of an 8 bit byte. The point is: if you base it on char, it may not be :) I believe some DSP-class architectures are word addressed, apart from the historical ones mentioned. --Toby > > Dave Caroline > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 10:03:34 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:03:34 -0400 Subject: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99E8EC.6887.27027B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A70EA.9040102@brouhaha.com> <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9AF246.6000705@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 2:32 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Oct 2011 at 22:51, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Yes. All C types, except bitfields within a structure, must have >> sizes that are a multiple of the size of the char type. > > Wasn't it presumptuous of K&R to assume that the smallest native > datum was a char? At the time the spec was being written, there did > exist bit-addressable machines, so directly-addressed bit arrays were > certainly possible on some hardware. Hence: bitfields, as mentioned above. Note that VAX-11 has native bitfield instructions. I don't know if VAX C used them... --Toby > > --Chuck > > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 10:08:50 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:08:50 -0400 Subject: programmers barely know math - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015215431.X87620@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> <4E9A486D.7090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20111015202630.R87620@shell.lmi.net> <4E9A54CB.9020204@jetnet.ab.ca> <20111015215431.X87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9AF382.7010403@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 1:02 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> FAT16, for example used a SIGNED long for both the file size and for the >>> maximum partition size. Therefore, instead of 0 to 4GB, the range was >>> -2GB to +2GB >>> That opens up some interesting possibilities! >>> I stepped on the DIR of a floppy disk, and created a -2GB file. I then >>> copied that file to an almost full hard disk, in order to get more disk >>> space without the DANGERS! of compression. It didn't work. > > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, ben wrote: >> Did you remember the -2GB is for imaginary data when C gets REAL numbers. > > "COMPLEX" numbers maybe? > > I always hated having to explain to students that "REAL" numbers in > languages such as BASIC were floating point binary approximations, You'll be pleased to know this is still an FAQ - on sites like Quora, etc. > and > were absolutely NOT "REAL" numbers. Until about 6 years ago, we actually > had a course in "Computer Math", in which we tried to teach students > [among other things] how floating point worked. Of course, we had to > start by undoing a lot of what they had previously been taught, such as > that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I > got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) > > > > Don't worry! They may end up with co-workers like this guy: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/l32qk/if_only_we_all_had_coworkers_like_this_guy --Toby From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 11:17:42 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:17:42 +0100 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9A740C.1010608@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A740C.1010608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 16 October 2011 07:05, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/15/2011 09:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> OTOH, NeWS sounded fascinating and I've love to see a modern, FOSS >> reimplementation of it. I think that perhaps it might not be a very >> good fit for the modern display pipeline though - of a very fast >> multi-gigaHertz multicore CPU connected closely to a cluster of >> high-performance very-parallel MIMD GPU cores. >> >> Right now, usually, they're on a PCIe card, but AMD is showing the way >> - its Llano and Bulldozer "Fusion" APUs integrate the GPU onto the >> same die as the CPU cores. This is the way all CPUs *will* go; it's >> just that the current Intel offerings have crappy GPUs. > > ?Be careful with those "all CPUs" assertions; server processors are a pretty > big part of the market, and a GPU would be a very expensive useless piece of > silicon real estate there. Alongside Jochen's post with its excellent points, I'd also say that, yes, I reckon economies of scale will mean server CPUs too will end up with onboard GPUs that will often go unused. Just as in many cases an awful lot of servers don't use their onboard FPUs, either. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 16 11:30:48 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:30:48 -0600 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99E8EC.6887.27027B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A70EA.9040102@brouhaha.com> <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B06B8.500@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/16/2011 12:32 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Oct 2011 at 22:51, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Yes. All C types, except bitfields within a structure, must have >> sizes that are a multiple of the size of the char type. > > Wasn't it presumptuous of K&R to assume that the smallest native > datum was a char? At the time the spec was being written, there did > exist bit-addressable machines, so directly-addressed bit arrays were > certainly possible on some hardware. I thought somebody had C compiler for a Turing Machine. If so, that is bare bones hardware. > --Chuck > From rlaag at pacbell.net Sun Oct 16 12:07:56 2011 From: rlaag at pacbell.net (Robert Laag) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WIN 98 QUES Message-ID: <1318784876.35066.YahooMailClassic@web180415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> VINTAGE (I HOPE) WIN 98 QUES, WHEN I BRING UP WIN 98 A BOX COMES UP FOR ME TO ENTER A NETWORK PASSWORD AND HANGS THERE, HOW CAN I BYPASS THIS SO IT GOES ON TO THE DESKTOP DIRECTLY? ?THANKS ?BOB From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Oct 16 12:23:30 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:23:30 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died Message-ID: On 10/16/2011 12:32 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Oct 2011 at 22:51, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Yes. All C types, except bitfields within a structure, must have >> sizes that are a multiple of the size of the char type. > > Wasn't it presumptuous of K&R to assume that the smallest native > datum was a char? At the time the spec was being written, there did > exist bit-addressable machines, so directly-addressed bit arrays were > certainly possible on some hardware. Not just bit-aligned data: some processors from that same broad era (e.g. iAPX432) didn't even require that instructions be byte or word aligned. I think the point folks are missing is that it isn't the processor that defines the standard data types, but the language. I used to be more condescending towards the attitude that the-whole-world-is-a-stream-of-bytes (having worked with many I/O devices and languages and computers that had far more evolved record concepts) but here i am in 2011 and if I can coerce anything into a stream of bytes - I've got a lot of tools for working with that. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 12:54:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:54:31 -0700 Subject: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9AF246.6000705@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9AF246.6000705@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 11:03, Toby Thain wrote: > Hence: bitfields, as mentioned above. Note that VAX-11 has native > bitfield instructions. I don't know if VAX C used them... Not the same at all. I don't believe that in C I can declare: bit anything[60000]; K&R have bitfields as comprising parts of larger datatypes, say int, but not as a datatype in their own right. Can you imagine how inconvenient it would be if the type "char" was available only as a member of type "int"? Bit arrays are enormously useful to facilitate vector math, either to accompany sparse arrays or as a control vector for storing results. And then there's the obvious application as a simple bitmap. As I said, K&R C is extremely myopic and to my eye always appeared as PDP-11 shorthand assembler. It's not as if bit vectors are anything new; APL has had them for a very long time. Another thing that's dogged me over the years is the extremely weak preprocessor in C. To be sure, the template feature in C++ has remedied a lot of it, but that's not C--it's C++. C's preprocessor never came up to the level of the macro facility in a good macro assembler or, for that matter, the preprocessor in PL/I. Yes, I know the recommendation is to use a generic external macro facility, such as M4 or a host of other tools, but none of those are part of the C language. What can be done with a really good macro-assembler is very eye- opening. Sadly, not many newer assemblers, particularly those for microcontrollers, have assemblers worth spitting at. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 12:59:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:59:45 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9AB921.13926.943DC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 13:23, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I used to be more condescending towards the attitude that > the-whole-world-is-a-stream-of-bytes (having worked with many I/O > devices and languages and computers that had far more evolved record > concepts) but here i am in 2011 and if I can coerce anything into a > stream of bytes - I've got a lot of tools for working with that. Unfortunately, our tools constrain our thought--and that's the evil in a "universal" tool such as C. Program in APL, for example, for six months and I guarantee that your way of thinking about things will begin to change dramatically. I'm not saying that "that Iverson language" (as one of my co-workers used to call it) is the be-all, but its constraints on thinking are very different from most traditional languages. --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 13:15:23 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:15:23 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I think the point folks are missing is that it isn't the processor that defines the standard data types, but the language. it started out quiet the inverse. K&R2 page 9 defines an int as depending on the machine see page 32 too. Dave Caroline From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 13:17:37 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:17:37 -0400 Subject: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9AF246.6000705@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B1FC1.4050008@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Oct 2011 at 11:03, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Hence: bitfields, as mentioned above. Note that VAX-11 has native >> bitfield instructions. I don't know if VAX C used them... > > Not the same at all. I don't believe that in C I can declare: > > bit anything[60000]; Thanks for clarifying. > > K&R have bitfields as comprising parts of larger datatypes, say int, > but not as a datatype in their own right. Can you imagine how > inconvenient it would be if the type "char" was available only as a > member of type "int"? > > Bit arrays are enormously useful to facilitate vector math, either to > accompany sparse arrays or as a control vector for storing results. > > And then there's the obvious application as a simple bitmap. > > As I said, K&R C is extremely myopic and to my eye always appeared as > PDP-11 shorthand assembler. It's not as if bit vectors are anything > new; APL has had them for a very long time. > > Another thing that's dogged me over the years is the extremely weak > preprocessor in C. To be sure, the template feature in C++ has > remedied a lot of it, but that's not C--it's C++. C's preprocessor > never came up to the level of the macro facility in a good macro > assembler or, for that matter, the preprocessor in PL/I. Let alone Lisp or Scheme macros... > > Yes, I know the recommendation is to use a generic external macro > facility, such as M4 or a host of other tools, but none of those are > part of the C language. And still more primitive than other options. > > What can be done with a really good macro-assembler is very eye- > opening. Indeed. You're probably familiar with the epic hacks that make, e.g. MACRO-11 assemble for a completely different instruction set :) (A gentleman named Tom Evans showed me this.) > Sadly, not many newer assemblers, particularly those for > microcontrollers, have assemblers worth spitting at. The PIC18 assembler is a macro assembler not too far short of the Nova assembler or MACRO-11. It's not completely awful. --Toby > > --Chuck > > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 13:25:01 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:25:01 -0400 Subject: languages and patterns of thought - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9AB921.13926.943DC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E9AB921.13926.943DC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B217D.9010006@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 1:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Oct 2011 at 13:23, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> I used to be more condescending towards the attitude that >> the-whole-world-is-a-stream-of-bytes (having worked with many I/O >> devices and languages and computers that had far more evolved record >> concepts) but here i am in 2011 and if I can coerce anything into a >> stream of bytes - I've got a lot of tools for working with that. > > Unfortunately, our tools constrain our thought--and that's the evil > in a "universal" tool such as C. > > Program in APL, for example, for six months and I guarantee that your > way of thinking about things will begin to change dramatically. I'm > not saying that "that Iverson language" (as one of my co-workers used > to call it) is the be-all, but its constraints on thinking are very > different from most traditional languages. Absolutely!!! This is a very important point. Alan Perlis: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." This should be stenciled on the door of every programming office. Language constrains and moulds thought - as George Orwell also knew and wrote about. via http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alan_Perlis > > --Chuck > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 13:27:01 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:27:01 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9B21F5.301@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 2:15 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >> I think the point folks are missing is that it isn't the processor that defines the standard data types, but the language. > > it started out quiet the inverse. > > K&R2 page 9 defines an int as depending on the machine see page 32 too. It's a bit more subtle than that. The *physical* int depends on the machine (this is pragmatically important). The *conceptual* int is architecture independent. (Applies to all C types.) If you regard these as the same, you are not writing portable C. --T > > > Dave Caroline > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 16 13:39:26 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:39:26 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E99E8EC.6887.27027B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9A70EA.9040102@brouhaha.com> <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B24DE.6020008@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wasn't it presumptuous of K&R to assume that the smallest native > datum was a char? At the time the spec was being written, there did > exist bit-addressable machines, so directly-addressed bit arrays were > certainly possible on some hardware. I think that was decision of the standards committee; I don't recall K&R addressing that issue (no pun intended). From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 16 13:42:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:42:24 -0700 Subject: C on word addressed architectures - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A4A1C.9060301@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A5556.6060604@telegraphics.com.au> <20111015214411.Y87620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9B2590.7090100@brouhaha.com> Dave Caroline wrote: > I normally create a byte type to be sure of an 8 bit byte. If you're using standard C, the portable way to have an 8-bit type is to include or , and use int8_t (for signed) or uint8_t (for unsigned). These are the only types that are guaranteed to be exactly 8 bits. Of course, if you're using a C implementation that isn't compliant with the standard, such as a Microsoft compiler, you have to choose something that isn't. With Microsoft compilers, I usually throw together my own subset of stdint. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 16 13:46:47 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:46:47 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9B2697.2010207@brouhaha.com> Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Not just bit-aligned data: some processors from that > same broad era (e.g. iAPX432) didn't even require > that instructions be byte or word aligned. Though C does not have any constructs that involve pointers to instructions. There are pointers to functions, but those do NOT necessarily point to a machine instruction. > I think the point folks are missing is that it isn't the > processor that defines the standard data types, but > the language. Yes. The language committee tried to accommodate reasonable variations in machine architecture, up to a point. For instance, they did not require that integers be stored with a two's complement representation, even though that is the case for >99.999% of the processors used to run C code. From vintagecoder at aol.com Sun Oct 16 13:49:43 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:49:43 +0000 Subject: Ping Al Kossow, bitsavers content question...do you happen to have.... Message-ID: <201110161849.p9GInoN6029433@ims-m12.mx.aol.com> Hi Al, Do you happen to have copies of the following IBM doc available? This is all I/O related, not sure if it's from the 370 days or later. MVS/ESA Component Diagnosis and Logic: EXCP Processor (LY28-1477) LY28-1487 LY28-1488 LC28-1166-5 I noticed you've added a bunch of great IBM doc recently in addition to all the other great IBM doc you have been hosting. THANK YOU for your site and all the great work you are doing! From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 13:55:46 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the value of >>> what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do in fact show >>> up routinely without pods. >> >> Seconded. Every single one I've run into at hamfests and swap meets is >> missing the pods, software and documentation. Clueless &)(*^)^s > > I must be very lucky, then. The one I was given came with all 5 pods > (already connected), the right input cables sets for the pods and a bag > of grabber clips. Oh, and a US mains lead. The only original electrical > part it was misisngw was an HPIL cable (apparently one was included as > standard), but I've got a box of those, so no problem. I finally got lucky in the logic analyzer dept. Picked up a Tech-Tools DigiView DV1-100 100Mhz. 18-ch. unit at a hamfest on Saturday. Attaches via USB to Windows box. $45! Haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but it's a reasonably recent unit and the company is still around. Anyone worked with one of these? Steve -- From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 16 14:00:55 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:00:55 -0700 Subject: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9AF246.6000705@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B29E7.1090205@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not the same at all. I don't believe that in C I can declare: > bit anything[60000]; Standard C provides one predefined data type that is semantically a bit, which is _Bool. (Most people use the bool macro in , which expands to _Bool.) Any non-zero value when converted to _Bool becomes 1. The standard says that an object declared as type _Bool is large enough to store the values 0 and 1 (ISO/IEC 9899:1999 section 6.2.5 paragraph 2). This suggests that it may be as small as a single bit. However, "Except for bit-fields, objects are composed of contiguous sequences of one or more bytes" (section 6.2.6.1 paragraph 2), which has the perhaps unfortunate consequence that a _Bool can't be stored as a single bit except in a bitfield. It would have been nice if C had offered a packed array type, such that in a packed array of _Bool each component would occupy only one bit of storage. The difficulty that arises from that is that you can't have a C pointer to one of those bits (unless a new kind of C pointer is invented), and that it breaks the semantics of the indexing (square bracket) and dereferencing (unary *) operators. That's not to say that it couldn't be done, just that it definitely will complicate the language definition significantly. One could argue either way about whether that complication is justifiable. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 16 14:09:32 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:09:32 +0100 Subject: WIN 98 QUES In-Reply-To: <1318784876.35066.YahooMailClassic@web180415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1318784876.35066.YahooMailClassic@web180415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <017d01cc8c37$248ca9f0$6da5fdd0$@ntlworld.com> If I remember correctly, just press the ESCape key. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Laag > Sent: 16 October 2011 18:08 > To: CCTECH > Subject: WIN 98 QUES > > VINTAGE (I HOPE) WIN 98 QUES, WHEN I BRING UP WIN 98 A BOX COMES > UP FOR ME TO ENTER A NETWORK PASSWORD AND HANGS THERE, HOW > CAN I BYPASS THIS SO IT GOES ON TO THE DESKTOP > DIRECTLY? ?THANKS ?BOB From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 14:11:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:11:07 -0700 Subject: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B1FC1.4050008@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B1FC1.4050008@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9AC9DB.5177.D59639@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 14:17, Toby Thain wrote: > Indeed. You're probably familiar with the epic hacks that make, e.g. > MACRO-11 assemble for a completely different instruction set :) (A > gentleman named Tom Evans showed me this.) Early in my career, I was placed under the tutelage of a consultant-- an ex-IBMer who was quite an authority on COBOL--he was part of the old COMTRAN team as well. He came to California and "found himself"-- but that's another story. The task at hand was a translator between dialects of COBOL. Ours was a multi-processor transaction-oriented system with communicating multiple threads, shared variables, etc. This was long before the "Dragon Book" or even YACC (I'm not sure how amenable YACC is to COBOL at any rate). He'd asked me how I would go about writing such a translator. I responded that the simple way would be to use a specialized language such as SNOBOL or perhaps even FORTRAN (our options were pretty limited back then) and then refine the result. He opined that I'd missed the point of the question. He then proceded to explain his idea of how to go about it. He proposed a fictitious machine that, instead of bits and bytes, handled abstract data types, such as tokens and had a very simple set of instructions that could query and alter properties of tokens as well as generate some on its own. It had its own symbol table primitives as well as a way to generate output. I was a little dubious, but we put it together anyway; we invented some instructions and the support software for this machine (my job) and wrote a bunch of very funny-looking assembler code using the macro facility of the assembler. The initial run was ready in an amazing 3 months--far faster than anyone had anticipated. We had customers trying it out on their own code and reporting back problems, which were taken care of rather simply. Because of the huge macro content, assembling the translator took the better part of an hour (on one of the fastest CPUs of the time). And because execution was interpretive, it was awfully slow. The next step was to rewrite the macros for the instructions to have them generate native code and demote the interpreter to a bunch of support routines for the native code. Things sped up by almost an order of magnitude and the end result turned out to be extremely stable, so much so that my job and his disappeared and maintenance was turned over to the COBOL compiler group, who didn't udnerstand one iota of what it was about. I learned a lot from that process and when I had to turn out a full business-oriented BASIC for the 8085 years later, we implemented the whole affair in 6 months (compiling to a type of P-code) and had a compiler-and-runtime that ran programs considerably faster than BillG's compiled BASIC. I received a note a couple of months ago from an ex-dealer who informed me that, as far as he knew, the BASIC was still in use, running on Unix, although said customer was attempting to make the leap to Visual BASIC and Windows. > The PIC18 assembler is a macro assembler not too far short of the Nova > assembler or MACRO-11. It's not completely awful. Try some of the mainframe assemblers. Even late versions of MASM aren't too terrible. On the other hand, the AVR assembler feels as if it was written by an intern. While I can use it, I loathe it. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 12:39:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:39:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: old clocks In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Oct 15, 11 06:54:00 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone in here admire/collect old clocks? I want to get a Standard Hell yes. I've been interested in clocks for longer than I've been interested in computers :-). All types of 'clocks' actually, from sundials to atomic clocks. I am (as you have probably guesed) more interested in the movements (mechanisms, working parts, call it what you will) than the cases. Unforutnately, antique clocks are expensive, so I can't own what I'd really like to own, but I cvna still enjoy repairing a 1930's shelf clock that I've bought for \pounds 10.00 or so in a charity shop (thrift store). > Electric AR-2 slave clock (60s style). I fondly remember that model as > the one used at my elementary and junior high schools. Alas I cna't help you there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 13:43:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:43:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111015215431.X87620@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 15, 11 10:02:02 pm Message-ID: > I always hated having to explain to students that "REAL" numbers in > languages such as BASIC were floating point binary approximations, and > were absolutely NOT "REAL" numbers. Until about 6 years ago, we actually > had a course in "Computer Math", in which we tried to teach students > [among other things] how floating point worked. Of course, we had to THis reminds me of a related issue : Since almost everybody uses calculators and computers now, it's often said that learning things like how to do long multiplication and division is unneccssary for most people (well, unless they want to end up designing clacualtors and computers...). But of course such amchines are not mathematically perfect, there are rounding erorrs and the like [1]. I feel that if you'r not going to teach how to do soemthing by hand becuase everybody uses a machine to do it, you should instead teach why the machine doesnt' always get the mathematically correct resualt, and how to handle the common pitfalls. [1] Certain calcualators do what I term 'funny rounding' to get what appears to be the right answer in most cases. I can't stand such machines, I want to know exactly what my calulator is going to do. I am conviced that the majority of speadsheet users, for example, haven't a clue asto what is really going on and that their answers are suspect as a result. > start by undoing a lot of what they had previously been taught, such as > that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I > got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. 355/113 is more accurate and easier to remember 'How I need a drink, alcholic of course after the heavy lectures involving quatnm mechanics' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 13:22:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:22:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: old clocks In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Oct 16, 11 03:08:27 am Message-ID: > I was a proffesional clockmaker for a while. > We did mechanical, electric and electronic clock repair and > manufacture, till the site closed. > Dont forget you will need some form of master clock to drive the slave dial. > The drive is a current pulse set to a fixed current and all the dials > are in series. Many slave clock systems had the dials in series as you describe (and as is described in Hope-Jones's book), but I am sure the system we had at school (which weas almost certainly from Gents of Leicester) had the slave dials in parallel and fed them 24V pulses. I deducdd the first fact by unpluging the connector on one of the slaved and finding it had no effect on any of the others and the latter by useing a 'scope... Anyway, the pulses for that system were alternate polarity pulses, one pulse per minute. Something like this : -- -- | | | | -- ------ ------ ------ -- | | | | -- -- | | | | <-1min-> The slave clock motor was similar in concept to the motors in those quartz insert movements. It had 2 mechncially stable positions half a turn apart. The +ve goign pulse pulled the (magnetised rotor) one way round between the ends of the coil core, when the pulse ended, the rotor moved ot the nearest mechanically stable position. The next pulse (of the oppostie polarity) again lined the rotor up with the coil core, but the other way round, It then moved to the other stable position. And so on. The master clock had a spring-drivien mechancial movement with a short (about 30cm) pendulum. The spring was automatically rewound my an electric motor, and would keep the clock running for quite a time (12 hours or more) if the mains failed. The pulses to the slave dials were generated by a pair of 3-terminal mercury switches, which were rocked by a camshaft. Power to the switches (and thus the slave dials) came from a transofmer/rectifier unit. Of course if the mains failed, no pulses were gneerated (there was no battery backup) and the slave dials didn't move. However therew was a mechanism invovling a mains motor and a differneital gear which kept track of the missing pulses (when the mains motor wasn't turnign). When the mains came back on, the thing 'caught up' generating pulses every few seconds to reset the slaves to the correct time, Anyway.... While it would be nice to have such a master clock (or, indeed one of the synchonomes), these slave dials (in all the common systems) effectively count electrical pulses. And it doesn't matter how you genrate the pulses. Provided you know what the pulses should look like (voltage, current, whether they have to be of alternating polarity), it's a fund exercise to design a digital circuti to produce them using your favourite technology, whether that's TTL, FPGAs or microcontrollers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 13:31:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:31:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A43F5.2040002@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 15, 11 07:39:49 pm Message-ID: > The PDP-10's native character sets are 7-bit ASCII (originally the 1963 > edition) packed five characters to a word, with a leftover bit, and > "SIXBIT" which is the 64-character printable subset (not including the > lower-case region), packed six character to a word (or sometimes three > characters to a half-word). > > The C standard requires that the character data type fit in a byte > (ISO/IEC 9899:1999 sections 3.7.1 and 5.2.1), but byte is simply defined > as a unit of data storage large enoguh to hold any member of the basic > character set, so that is a tautology. > > However, the standard also requires that the character type occupy at > least 8 bits, that the minimum range for unsigned char is 0 to 255, and > that the minimum range for signed char is -127 to +127 (section 5.2.4.2.1). > > This rules out the use of 6-bit and 7-bit characters, so the native > PDP-10 text representation cannot be used as the C standard character > type at all. I seem ot remember too that siseof(char) is by defintion 1, and tha all other types have to have sizes that are an integer multiple of this. Which emans even if you could have 7-bit characters in C on a PDP10, you couldn't thaen have a type for 36 bits words (which I would assume is a natural size for some intergers). IMHO this part of the C standard is a mistake. There are plenty of machines where there are natural data types that are not integer multiples of the size of a character. I've worked on nybble-saddressing machines with a 20 bit address. Characters are, not suprisingly, 2 nybbles long on that machine. But the C standard prevents you having a type for the natural 20 bit numbers. WIth hindsight, I think that sizeof should have returend the number of bits used to store the object (including any wasted bits to get elements of a struct to fit on natural boundaries, etc). Of course even using 'bits' is not totally general (it assumes a binary machine), but it's a lot more general than requiring everyhing to be an intenger multiple of characters in length. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 14:38:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:38:46 -0700 Subject: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B29E7.1090205@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B29E7.1090205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9AD056.5973.EEE634@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 12:00, Eric Smith wrote: > The difficulty that arises from that is that you > can't have a C pointer to one of those bits (unless a new kind of C > pointer is invented), and that it breaks the semantics of the indexing > (square bracket) and dereferencing (unary *) operators. But--C is implemented on systems without byte addressing, as previously noted, where the smallest addressable unit is the word. Ultimately the smallest item of data on any machine (save decimal ones) is the bit and addresses should reflect that. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander... You begin to understand those who think that explicit pointers are just plain evil... :) --Chuck From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 14:44:51 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:44:51 -0400 Subject: WIN 98 QUES In-Reply-To: <017d01cc8c37$248ca9f0$6da5fdd0$@ntlworld.com> References: <1318784876.35066.YahooMailClassic@web180415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <017d01cc8c37$248ca9f0$6da5fdd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > If I remember correctly, just press the ESCape key. > > Regards > > Rob After that, follow this procedure to prevent it from asking for passwords again: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/152104 From ylee at pobox.com Mon Oct 10 19:21:57 2011 From: ylee at pobox.com (Yeechang Lee) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 17:21:57 -0700 Subject: how much current does a G3 iMac pull? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20115.35877.387456.566297@dobie.ylee.org> Joe Giliberti says: > Does anyone know about how many amps a G3 CRT iMac draws? More > specifically, I am talking about a 600MHz G3 model with Airport. I have this exact model and have used it with a Kill-a-Watt. It consumes 80 watts in ordinary use, 90W when playing a YouTube video, and 28W in Sleep mode. -- Yeechang Lee | San Francisco From jonas at otter.se Tue Oct 11 16:23:51 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 23:23:51 +0200 Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E94B3E7.8010609@otter.se> On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 13:42:15 -0500, "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > Please, enough of the self-righteousness that always seems to highlight > your purist tendencies, including the ability to construct transistors > from raw materials and simple hand tools. We know where you stand already. I would hardly call Tony self-righteous. He does have strong opinions and lives by his convictions, but I have always got the clear impression that he accepts other people's right to do as they please with their own stuff. He will try to convince you that you should reconsider, if you propose doing something which he thinks is wrong, however I don't think that the connotation "especiallywhensmuglymoralisticandintolerantoftheopinionsandbehaviorofothers" of the word "self-righteous" (from dictionary.com) applies. Being intolerant is not the same as disagreeing and trying to convince people they are wrong. Intolerance implies refusing other people the right to their opinions. Irony does not always go down well either, unfortunately. /Jonas From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:39:44 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:39:44 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an IBM N40 RS/6000 laptop? Message-ID: > From:?Josh Dersch > Date:?Sat, 08 Oct 2011 23:38:42 -0700 > Anyone out there have one of these things? ?It's an oddball, made for IBM by Tadpole (same guys who made the Sparcbook). > > I'm trying to identify a scorched component in the battery compartment of mine in the hopes that I can get it running again. ?It's next to the memory, on the right hand side (with the front of the laptop facing toward you) labeled as "TR35" on the PCB. ?It's an 8-pin surface-mount component, but the one in mine is scorched so badly it's unidentifiable. ?And I somehow doubt i'll find a schematic :). > > Thanks, > Josh I see an 8-pin IC that is labeled LT 324 0425. It is at the right of the memory on the motherboard and DIMs. On mine it it is silkscreened D54 next to the IC., -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:44:14 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:44:14 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Anyone have an IBM N40 RS/6000 laptop? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From:?Josh Dersch > Date:?Sat, 08 Oct 2011 23:38:42 -0700 > Anyone out there have one of these things? ?It's an oddball, made for IBM by Tadpole (same guys who made the Sparcbook). > > I'm trying to identify a scorched component in the battery compartment of mine in the hopes that I can get it running again. ?It's next to the memory, on the right hand side (with the front of the laptop facing toward you) labeled as "TR35" on the PCB. ?It's an 8-pin surface-mount component, but the one in mine is scorched so badly it's unidentifiable. ?And I somehow doubt i'll find a schematic :). > > Thanks, > Josh I see an 8-pin IC that is labeled LT 324 0425. It is at the right of the memory on the motherboard and DIMs. On mine it it is silkscreened D54 next to the IC., The part of the motherboard that you can see in my SPARCBook 3 with the battery and shielding removed looks identical to the motherboard in the N40. -- Michael Thompson -- Michael Thompson From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 19:33:48 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E947A07.23039.1CC83A9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1318379628.82475.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/11/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not many.? On the other hand, I've sometimes viewed > humans as > parasitic organisms that assist computers in evolution and > self- > reproduction.? Once they have no need for us, we're > done for... > > --Chuck Just how much stock do you have in Cyberdyne there Chuckster? Hmmm? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 19:35:22 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now THIS is nuts... In-Reply-To: <4E947A80.4774.1CE5DA9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1318379722.15941.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/11/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Oct 2011 at 16:24, Gene Buckle > wrote: > > > > > eBay # 120788797213 > > > > The guy makes wiredforservice look like a piker. > *laughs* > > Hey, I've still a box with that in original > shrink-wrap.? It's got to > be worth at least $2M, no? > > --Chuck anything wrong w/a bloke (blokette?) making a buck. I'm getting sick of the communist sympathies on this here board. From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Oct 12 02:37:30 2011 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:37:30 +0200 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9543BA.2080708@acc.umu.se> Tony Duell skrev 2011-10-09 21:39: >> Even I can get a modem or a printer working on a parallel or serial port. >> Even I can get hardware and software to work on parallel or serial ports. >> (OK, I don't HAVE any parallel port modems. Wish I did.)_ > Rememebr that the original PC parallel port was officially output-only, > whcih imples it's not a MODEM, but a MO :-) I once wrote a turbopascal program that used the parallel port and it's control lines to transmit and receive a 128 bit synchronously 300 baud signal to a care phone (not a car phone, it was a home alarm for elderly people). So the parallel port can be used as a modem. :-) /G?ran From jonas at otter.se Wed Oct 12 14:31:16 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:31:16 +0200 Subject: OT(?) : HP1630D Logic Analyser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E95EB04.3070503@otter.se> On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 14:37:49 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote about the HP 1630 logic analyzer: > > the fact that the pods can only be > > disconnected after rmeoving a cover plate means that the pods are > unlikely > > to get spearated from the unit and lost, for example. > > Nope. You underestimate how determined resellers are to destroy the > value of what they're reselling. I don't know why they do it. These do > in fact show up routinely without pods. Because they think they can make more money by selling the pods separately? It happens with old cameras as well, the camera is sold without its special take-up spool, which is sold separately for as much as the camera itself. And with cars, sell an old car in parts and you will get much more for it than if you sell it intact. /Jonas From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 12 14:49:40 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <00fe01cc885e$2376bfb0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <1318448980.60097.YahooMailClassic@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/11/11, Andrew Burton wrote: > Also important, the human body can repair itself and fix > (most) problems > without assistance. How many Mac's (or any other computer - > not counting > Zylons or the 'Borg) can do that? Not only that, but the human body can fix other human bodies (or was that already said or implied?). Ok, it seems to be open season on pointing out so called deficiencies in God's ultimate machine. I once heard a bloke go on about how he kept injuring himself (playing rugby) and the associated down time. Some of his injuries became somewhat permanent. It just stands to reason that no matter how well you design something, there are bound to be circumstances that could lead to it's ultimate destruction. Anything is breakable. Oi. And with a circulatory system that could stretch from here to the moon, amongst other marvels of our anatomy, I'm pretty well persuaded that we're not the product of a vast series of accidents. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 12 14:54:04 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E94B9C1.2090507@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1318449244.74676.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/11/11, allison wrote: > The AmproLB+ had SCSI (using the NCR5380 chip) then it was > actually SASI > as the > SCSI spec was not real then.???Also the > MicroMint SB180 had a SASI/SCSI > board (used the 5380) The versions we were talking about were designated Little Board PC's. Now that you mention it there were earlier z80 based versions. Don't know what they sported. AFAIK the LBPCs always had SCSI. At least the later v40 based ones did. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 12 15:22:14 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E937C0C.2080601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1318450934.91039.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/10/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > > The iphone is a cell phone and a palm pilot mashed > together. > > ? Oh PLEASE.? PalmOS was a pile of crap, one of > the worst UI/OS combinations I've ever seen. my comment had nothing to do w/software. "Palm pilot" used as generic handheld computer. Fell way way out of popularity (after everyone owning one up until about 5 years ago). It wasn't he -phone portion that made the iphone so popular (especially since AT & T was the carrier!), but rather the applications. The Palm whatevers died out big time, but they came back w/a vengeance. Despite the immense popularity, where's the innovation? My Tracphone has a Locosto processor and my HP 50g has a StrongArm, and w/that I'm done! And look at these tablets. You have to spend at least 400$ for a 10" tablet, but you can buy a netbook for a little over 200$. Both will wind you up in the insane asylum, so it's hard for me to dote on netbooks as opponents of the tablets. They're both nice in their own way, but won't replace a laptop. Nuh uh, not happening. The Toshiba I bought my mum (she has yet to turn it on 3 months later) is significantly nicer then my old Linus based Asus, but the A* was nice too. Very well made, rugged even (no h/d). But these things don't stand to "replace" anything. Sure there are instances where a netbook or tablet is ideal, for instance the guys working in the 7-11s around here routinely inventory w/their Fujitsu tablet in hand (probably run at least 1500$ per), which are beautiful. But there's no substitute 90% of the time for a desktop or full size laptop. The 15.6" Toshibas and whatnot (I do like T*s) are drop dead gorgeous and cost little over 300$. It's a joke how cheap this stuff is. So what has Apple offered recently? Why should I go out and buy a Snuggy instead of donning a bathrobe backwards? And I don't own or need one of those either! I got plenty of old fashioned towels that work just fine! From doug at doughq.com Fri Oct 14 06:50:03 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 22:50:03 +1100 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I used to get laughed at for being explicit when I coded C. Some of the guys in the office said that my C looked like perfectly formed Pascal..... I spent less time chasing bizarre bugs though! Doug On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 09:14:34PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > for(int i=0;i<14;i++) > > > putchar(i["hello world\n"]); > > > > > > Not very complex, but figuring out how it works i fun :-) > > > > What's to 'work out'? The argument to putchar looks a bit odd, but IIRC, > > A[i] is a shorthand for *(A+i), and addition is commutitive (even when it > > involves pointers). So that's just indexing an array of chracters (the > > string constant) using i. > > Hey Tony, cut me some slack. Not all C programmers will recall(or even > know to begin with) that A[i] is shorthand for *(A+1). I learned it > through this example. > > Here is another one which also requires some knowledge of standards: > > What is the safe thing to do after a longjmp to a previous setjmp > position? > > Regards, > Pontus. > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From jonas at otter.se Fri Oct 14 12:50:45 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 19:50:45 +0200 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E987675.1060603@otter.se> On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:59:46 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I am very sorry to hear that. > > I am sure he won't get the media hype that followed the passing of Steve > Jobs last week, but I am also sure that dmr had a much greater influence > on the sort of computing that I am interested in than Steve Jobs did. > > :-( Sad indeed. Seeing that OS X is in some sense Unix-based, I would say DMR won... /Jonas From richardlynch3 at verizon.net Fri Oct 14 21:35:52 2011 From: richardlynch3 at verizon.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:35:52 -0500 Subject: Need Decnet-11m netkit Message-ID: Anyone have an image of the Netkit for Decnet-11m+ v4.0 on tk50? I?ve got the Deckit, just need the other one to get ethernet up on my Micro PDP-11. Richard Lynch From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Fri Oct 14 23:26:47 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:26:47 +1100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <20111014061354.GA32192@Update.UU.SE> <4E98318C.1010506@telegraphics.com.au> <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE> <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E990526.70809@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <8BA2B810-7D42-44F3-A900-485C3A4ACA5F@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 15/10/2011, at 2:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 10/14/2011 8:23 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> An oft-quoted C idiom (the cuteness of which does wear off a bit) was exhibited - apart from in Unix sources - in the K&R book. To understand it one might have to realise that adding a constant to a pointer, and dereferencing, is equivalent to p[constant]: >> >> mystery(char *s, char *t) { >> while(*s++ = *t++) >> ; >> } >> >> The *(p+c) business cannot remain mysterious if one wants to write idiomatic C. I would tend to prefer the idiom above to a tedious loop with counter and []'s written longhand, though a comment might be warranted. >> >> --Toby > > And I would tend to prefer a loop that involves some sort of bounds checking :). And I'd also like a language where a one character addition doesn't change the function significantly. I read this as a string comparison rather than assignment :-( Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 14:49:25 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:49:25 -0400 Subject: glorious abuses of macros - Re: bit vectors - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9AC9DB.5177.D59639@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B1FC1.4050008@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9AC9DB.5177.D59639@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B3545.4080604@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 3:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Oct 2011 at 14:17, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Indeed. You're probably familiar with the epic hacks that make, e.g. >> MACRO-11 assemble for a completely different instruction set :) (A >> gentleman named Tom Evans showed me this.) > I posted about it here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch.embedded/B6fK5z2lUww/BoBL2S_uITEJ > Early in my career, I was placed under the tutelage of a consultant-- > an ex-IBMer who was quite an authority on COBOL ... > he proposed a fictitious machine that, instead of bits and bytes, > handled abstract data types, such as tokens and had a very simple set > of instructions that could query and alter properties of tokens as > well as generate some on its own. It had its own symbol table > primitives as well as a way to generate output. > > I was a little dubious, but we put it together anyway; we invented > some instructions and the support software for this machine (my job) > and wrote a bunch of very funny-looking assembler code using the > macro facility of the assembler. > > The initial run was ready in an amazing 3 months ... > > Because of the huge macro content, assembling the translator took the > better part of an hour (on one of the fastest CPUs of the time). And > because execution was interpretive, it was awfully slow. Yes, Evans remarked on this as well as you see :) > > The next step was to rewrite the macros for the instructions to have > them generate native code and demote the interpreter to a bunch of > support routines for the native code. Things sped up by almost an > order of magnitude and the end result turned out to be extremely > stable, so much so that my job and his disappeared and maintenance > was turned over to the COBOL compiler group, who didn't udnerstand > one iota of what it was about. > > I learned a lot from that process ... Thanks very much for the anecdote. --Toby > > --Chuck > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 14:57:01 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:57:01 -0400 Subject: Floating point, =?UTF-8?B?z4AgLSBSZTogQyB0cml2aWEgLSB3YXMgUmU6IEQ=?= =?UTF-8?B?ZW5uaXMgUml0Y2hpZSBoYXMgZGllZA==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9B370D.9020709@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 1:02 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> start by undoing a lot of what they had previously been taught, such as >> that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I >> got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) > On 16/10/11 2:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. > 355/113 is more accurate and easier to remember I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 52163?16604 is more accurate. --Toby > > 'How I need a drink, alcholic of course after the heavy lectures involving > quatnm mechanics' > > -tony > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 14:58:41 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:58:41 -0400 Subject: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B29E7.1090205@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9AF246.6000705@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9B29E7.1090205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9B3771.8080101@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 3:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Not the same at all. I don't believe that in C I can declare: > > bit anything[60000]; > > Standard C provides one predefined data type that is semantically a bit, > which is _Bool. ... > > It would have been nice if C had offered a packed array type, such that > in a packed array of _Bool each component would occupy only one bit of > storage. The difficulty that arises from that is that you can't have a C > pointer to one of those bits (unless a new kind of C pointer is > invented), and that it breaks the semantics of the indexing (square > bracket) and dereferencing (unary *) operators. Wouldn't a real macro system be handy! --Toby > That's not to say that > it couldn't be done, just that it definitely will complicate the > language definition significantly. One could argue either way about > whether that complication is justifiable. > > From vintagecoder at aol.com Sun Oct 16 15:05:24 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:05:24 +0000 Subject: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9AC9DB.5177.D59639@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110162005.p9GK5T8Z012853@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> Yet another great post. I wish you would write a book with all these stories. I mean it. If I am not broke, and can't bootleg a copy off the net, I would definitely buy it. Then again I would buy it just to have a hard copy. > Try some of the mainframe assemblers. Is there more than one? But yeah, the IBM macro language is amazing, for all intents and purposes it's a full programming language. I use it a lot, but have never come close to using its full power. Several languages have been implemented using it pretty heavily. SNOBOL4 is a good example that you mentioned. I'm always disappointed in assemblers for other targets, not just because of the (lack) of macro support though. To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us agree C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, what does everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming language? Seems to me nothing has the library, GUI support etc. like C and C++ do, but those languages seem suboptimal for most things. I write almost no code on UNIX because I haven't ever found a traditional compiled language I like that has enough support to make it usable. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 16 15:13:43 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now THIS is nuts... In-Reply-To: <1318379722.15941.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318379722.15941.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Chris M wrote: > > > --- On Tue, 10/11/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 11 Oct 2011 at 16:24, Gene Buckle >> wrote: >> >>> >>> eBay # 120788797213 >>> >>> The guy makes wiredforservice look like a piker. >> *laughs* >> >> Hey, I've still a box with that in original >> shrink-wrap.? It's got to >> be worth at least $2M, no? >> >> --Chuck > > anything wrong w/a bloke (blokette?) making a buck. I'm getting sick of > the communist sympathies on this here board. Troll much? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 16 15:32:24 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > THis reminds me of a related issue : > Since almost everybody uses calculators and computers now, it's often > said that learning things like how to do long multiplication and division > is unneccssary for most people (well, unless they want to end up > designing clacualtors and computers...). During the span of my teaching, I watched the transition from VERY few people remembering how to compute a square root ("well, it looks a like long division") to nobody knowing that a square root CAN be calculated! Those who "once knew" were grateful when I taught the class progrsessive interpolation (binary approximation) using squaring a series of "trial candidates", and now had a way to do it that they "could understand". > But of course such amchines are not mathematically perfect, there are > rounding erorrs and the like [1]. I feel that if you'r not going to > teach how to do soemthing by hand becuase everybody uses a machine to do > it, you should instead teach why the machine doesnt' always get the > mathematically correct resualt, and how to handle the common pitfalls. "Get a better calculator/computer/floating point co-processor" "Just use 'double precision'" Just making them divide 1 by 3, write down the result, and then multiply what they had written by 3 actually helped! As did going over the "rules" for "leap years"! But, surprisingly, making them convert PI into the bit representation for IEEE 32 bit floating point, helped them to understand the basic concept that floating point is a WRONG, but "close enough" approximation. > > that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I > > got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) > I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. "Because the textbook says, 'PI is about 3.14.16 or 22/7', and therefore since the textbook said that 3.14.16 is 'ABOUT', but didn't say 'ABOUT 22/7', it is exactly 22/7 ." The principal did not know better! My parents knew better, but would not believe my protestations that disagreeing, and refusing to retract, was all that I had done wrong. In the eyes of the school system, any kid who knows more than 3 digits of PI in 5th grade needs to be brought back into compliance with the norm. (no, that did not remain my only manifestation of maladjustment) > 'How I need a drink, alcholic of course after the heavy lectures involving > quatnm mechanics' BUT, you have 3.141592653589 6 9 instead of 3.141592653589 8 9 in spite of presumably knowing a bit about quantum mechanics. Now, THERE is an argument for bing more careful about speling! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 15:57:19 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:57:19 -0400 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110162005.p9GK5T8Z012853@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> References: <201110162005.p9GK5T8Z012853@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9B452F.4030505@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 4:05 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Yet another great post. I wish you would write a book with all these > stories. I mean it. If I am not broke, and can't bootleg a copy off the > net, I would definitely buy it. Then again I would buy it just to have a > hard copy. > >> Try some of the mainframe assemblers. > > Is there more than one? But yeah, the IBM macro language is amazing, for > all intents and purposes it's a full programming language. I use it a lot, > but have never come close to using its full power. Several languages have > been implemented using it pretty heavily. SNOBOL4 is a good example that > you mentioned. I'm always disappointed in assemblers for other targets, > not just because of the (lack) of macro support though. > > To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us agree > C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, what does > everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming language? Seems What problems do you want to solve? > to me nothing has the library, GUI support etc. like C and C++ do, but > those languages seem suboptimal for most things. I write almost no code on > UNIX because I haven't ever found a traditional compiled language I like What languages DO you like? > that has enough support to make it usable. > > Many languages have a lot of "support" these days (for example, one can no longer say that Scheme or CL or Haskell etc lack organised libraries). What support do you specifically need? --Toby From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 16 16:02:12 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <4E9B370D.9020709@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Oct 16, 11 03:57:01 pm" Message-ID: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> > > I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. > > 355/113 is more accurate and easier to remember > > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 52163/16604 is > more accurate. I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 86953/27678 is more accurate. (*) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -- Tacitus --------- (*) 355/113 and 52163/16604 are only accurate to 6 decimal places, but 355/113 is pretty easy to remember. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 16:13:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:13:22 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Floating_point, _=CF=80_-_Re:_C_trivia_-_was_Re:_Dennis_Ritchie_has_died?= In-Reply-To: <4E9B370D.9020709@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E9B370D.9020709@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9AE682.29089.145809D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 15:57, Toby Thain wrote: > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 52163/16604 > is more accurate. Actually, if the 1897 Indiana Legislature had its way, pi would be exactly 3.2: http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/Localgov/Second%20Level%20pages/India na_Pi_Story.htm An excellelnt example of why political bodies have no business tinkering with education. --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 16 16:18:30 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:18:30 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > > 'How I need a drink, alcholic of course after the heavy lectures > > involving quatnm mechanics' > BUT, you have 3.141592653589 6 9 > instead of 3.141592653589 8 9 > in spite of presumably knowing a bit about quantum mechanics. > Now, THERE is an argument for bing more careful about speling! Ahem 3.141592653589 *7* 9 (Finlly, memorising the first 200 digits all those years ago proves useful :-)) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 16 16:21:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> References: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> > > > I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. > > > 355/113 is more accurate and easier to remember > > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 52163/16604 is > > more accurate. > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 86953/27678 is > more accurate. (*) I never understood the populrity of that approximation. 31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 / 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 is more accurate. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 16 16:27:11 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Oct 16, 11 02:21:33 pm" Message-ID: <201110162127.p9GLRB1x012566@floodgap.com> > > > > I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. > > > > 355/113 is more accurate and easier to remember > > > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 52163/16604 is > > > more accurate. > > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 86953/27678 is > > more accurate. (*) > > I never understood the populrity of that approximation. > 31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 / > 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 > is more accurate. Can't you divide those down a bit? ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Too much of a good thing is wonderful. -- Mae West ------------------------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 16 16:30:09 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now THIS is nuts... In-Reply-To: <1318379722.15941.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318379722.15941.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Chris M wrote: > --- On Tue, 10/11/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 11 Oct 2011 at 16:24, Gene Buckle >> wrote: >> >>> eBay # 120788797213 >>> >>> The guy makes wiredforservice look like a piker. >> *laughs* >> >> Hey, I've still a box with that in original >> shrink-wrap.? It's got to >> be worth at least $2M, no? >> >> --Chuck > > anything wrong w/a bloke (blokette?) making a buck. I'm getting sick of > the communist sympathies on this here board. I'm far from a communist and people like that irritate me too. I start my S100 cards at $20 knowing that people will very often bid them up to way past that. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 17:10:55 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:10:55 -0500 Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> References: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9B566F.70705@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > I never understood the populrity of that approximation. > 31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 / > 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 > is more accurate. If you encode the digits using something with more scope than characters 0..9, there's a lot less to memorize. ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 16 17:12:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:12:58 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E987675.1060603@otter.se> References: <4E987675.1060603@otter.se> Message-ID: <4E9B56EA.8040402@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2011 01:50 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: >> I am very sorry to hear that. >> >> I am sure he won't get the media hype that followed the passing of Steve >> Jobs last week, but I am also sure that dmr had a much greater influence >> on the sort of computing that I am interested in than Steve Jobs did. >> >> :-( > Sad indeed. > > Seeing that OS X is in some sense Unix-based, I would say DMR won... It's a lot more than "in some sense UNIX-based". It's UNIX. He definitely won. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 17:24:27 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:24:27 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Floating_point, _=CF=80_-_Re:_C_trivia_-_was_Re:_Dennis_Ritchie_has_died?= In-Reply-To: <4E9AE682.29089.145809D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E9B370D.9020709@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9AE682.29089.145809D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B599B.4050300@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 5:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Oct 2011 at 15:57, Toby Thain wrote: > >> I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 52163/16604 >> is more accurate. > > Actually, if the 1897 Indiana Legislature had its way, pi would be > exactly 3.2: > > http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/Localgov/Second%20Level%20pages/India > na_Pi_Story.htm > > An excellelnt example of why political bodies have no business > tinkering with education. Right, it's much safer in the hands of "education reform" plutocrats :D --T > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 17:27:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:27:13 -0700 Subject: Now THIS is nuts... In-Reply-To: References: <1318379722.15941.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4E9AF7D1.11031.1891D83@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 14:30, David Griffith wrote: > I'm far from a communist and people like that irritate me too. I > start my S100 cards at $20 knowing that people will very often bid > them up to way past that. All the way up to $1,000,000 (the starting price for the auction)? That's not free enterprise, it's delusional thinking. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 16 17:44:23 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now THIS is nuts... In-Reply-To: <4E9AF7D1.11031.1891D83@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1318379722.15941.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4E9AF7D1.11031.1891D83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111016154303.V62224@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > All the way up to $1,000,000 (the starting price for the auction)? > > That's not free enterprise, it's delusional thinking. or a helluva system for money laundering! From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 16 18:36:40 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:36:40 -0700 Subject: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9AD056.5973.EEE634@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B29E7.1090205@brouhaha.com> <4E9AD056.5973.EEE634@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B6A88.5050805@brouhaha.com> On 10/16/2011 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But--C is implemented on systems without byte addressing, as > previously noted, where the smallest addressable unit is the word. Yes, and they do one of several things: 1) implement byte pointers in software, so that a character is smaller than a word and not hardware addressable 2) use the word as the smallest addressable unit, in which case a character occupies a full word 3) hybrid - use software-implemented byte pointers for char, and normal machine pointers for date types that the hardware can address Note that (3) is possible because C does not require that all pointers have the same representation. C does not even require that if you take a char *, cast it to an int *, and then cast it back to a char *, that you get a valid pointer. In fact, just doing the cast has unpredictable results and may even crash at the point of the cast, without dereferencing the resulting pointer. However, the reverse, taking an int *, casting it to a char *, and then back to an int *, is required to work. Same with casting an int * to a void * and back. char * and void * are universal pointers, so if the implementation uses different pointer representations for different data types, the char * and void * representations have to be a superset of the others. However, while any of those three options can be used for a conforming C implementation, note that none of them provide a way to address something smaller than a character, because C defines that all objects are represented in memory as occupying some exact multiple of the size of a character, and that a character has to be able to represent at least 0 to 255 if unsigned, and at leat -127 to +127 if signed. Could C have been defined with the smallest addressable unit as the bit? Of course. But it wasn't, and unless you convince the standards committee to change it, we're stuck with it. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 18:48:41 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:48:41 -0400 Subject: word-addressed architectures - Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B6A88.5050805@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B29E7.1090205@brouhaha.com> <4E9AD056.5973.EEE634@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9B6A88.5050805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9B6D59.6030502@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 7:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 10/16/2011 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > But--C is implemented on systems without byte addressing, as > > previously noted, where the smallest addressable unit is the word. > > Yes, and they do one of several things: > > 1) implement byte pointers in software, so that a character is smaller > than a word and not hardware addressable > > 2) use the word as the smallest addressable unit, in which case a > character occupies a full word > > 3) hybrid - use software-implemented byte pointers for char, and normal > machine pointers for date types that the hardware can address > > Note that (3) is possible because C does not require that all pointers > have the same representation. C does not even require that if you take a > char *, cast it to an int *, and then cast it back to a char *, that you > get a valid pointer. In fact, just doing the cast has unpredictable > results and may even crash at the point of the cast, without > dereferencing the resulting pointer. Exactly. On DG Nova, inter alia, byte pointers and word pointers have a different representation. --Toby > > However, the reverse, taking an int *, casting it to a char *, and then > back to an int *, is required to work.... From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 18:59:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:59:33 -0700 Subject: word-addressed architectures - Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B6D59.6030502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9B6A88.5050805@brouhaha.com>, <4E9B6D59.6030502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9B0D75.4963.1DDA577@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 19:48, Toby Thain wrote: > Exactly. On DG Nova, inter alia, byte pointers and word pointers have > a different representation. ...which must make for all sorts of fun on that and similar architectures when void* pointers are used for nearly everything... I dislike void* as a pointer type and it infests nearly everything and conveys no information other than "this is a pointer...to something". Too often it's used as a lazy dodge. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 19:07:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:07:02 -0700 Subject: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B6A88.5050805@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9AD056.5973.EEE634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B6A88.5050805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9B0F36.10103.1E47FEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 16:36, Eric Smith wrote: > Could C have been defined with the smallest addressable unit as the > bit? Of course. But it wasn't, and unless you convince the standards > committee to change it, we're stuck with it. And shame of shames, F90 also rejected the idea, even though the user community seemed to think that it was a useful idea. In particular, both DEC and IBM threatened to withdraw from X3J3 if real vectors were implemented, rather than simply blessing IBM's array arithmetic as "vector extensions". It was a nasty time. F90 was supposed to have been F88, but the quibbling delayed adoption. Personally, I like F77 a lot more than F90 and its ilk. FORTRAN started out as a simple language and just got worse by leaps and bounds. Committees can do that, I guess. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Oct 16 19:25:03 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:25:03 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E99F824.5070105@mail.msu.edu> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> <4E9765CF.25580.2E07294@cclist.sydex.com> <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> <4E99F824.5070105@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E9B75DF.2030000@mail.msu.edu> On 10/15/2011 2:16 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 10/15/2011 9:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> Here are all of the ISA controllers with a DP8473, extracted from an >> old controller list >> AHA-1542Bs show up at Weird Stuff fairly often. If you need one to >> read the Altos floppies, LMK. > > Thanks, Al! I'll have to check my box of ISA cards, I have a few > Adaptec AHA-15XX cards, maybe I actually have one that's on your > list. I think I may actually have the Trantor T128F installed in an > XT somewhere... > > (And as a side note, I had a chance to make a detour and a short visit > to WeirdStuff on my cross-country road trip this summer. Wish I'd had > more than 20 minutes to browse around (and more room in the car!) ...) > > - Josh > OK -- found an AHA-1542B in my stash (and a Seagate ST02 for good measure) and I'm happy to report that ImageDisk does seem to cope with 128-byte sectors given a controller that works. (Though it is a bit fussy, occasionally it'd stop reading properly and the only remedy seemed to be to reboot the machine.) And I now have a bunch more images up at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/altos/ Including several copies of CP/M (looks like 2.2), images of Multiplan, Wordstar and a diagnostic disk. That should be the lot! Thanks for the advice. - Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 16 19:29:56 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now THIS is nuts... In-Reply-To: <4E9AF7D1.11031.1891D83@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1318379722.15941.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4E9AF7D1.11031.1891D83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Oct 2011 at 14:30, David Griffith wrote: > >> I'm far from a communist and people like that irritate me too. I >> start my S100 cards at $20 knowing that people will very often bid >> them up to way past that. > > All the way up to $1,000,000 (the starting price for the auction)? > > That's not free enterprise, it's delusional thinking. A million dollars is idiotic. I'm talking about getting a couple hundred for some of the rarer S100 cards. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 16 20:10:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:10:13 -0400 Subject: word-addressed architectures - Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B0D75.4963.1DDA577@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9B6A88.5050805@brouhaha.com>, <4E9B6D59.6030502@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9B0D75.4963.1DDA577@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B8075.9020901@neurotica.com> On 10/16/2011 07:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Exactly. On DG Nova, inter alia, byte pointers and word pointers have >> a different representation. > > ...which must make for all sorts of fun on that and similar > architectures when void* pointers are used for nearly everything... > > I dislike void* as a pointer type and it infests nearly everything > and conveys no information other than "this is a pointer...to > something". Too often it's used as a lazy dodge. I think void * is a very good thing. It's certainly useful when writing generic, reusable functions like sorting routines, etc. I use it all the time for stuff like that, and I've never had any problems with it...of course I keep track of what they're pointing at. ;) It helps to not think of them as "pointers", but simply as "memory addresses". It's just semantics, but it can make one more comfortable with the idea. The fact is, they're extremely useful, and they work great. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 20:36:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:36:42 -0700 Subject: word-addressed architectures - Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B8075.9020901@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9B0D75.4963.1DDA577@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B8075.9020901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9B243A.32078.2369960@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 21:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/16/2011 07:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It helps to not think of them as "pointers", but simply as "memory > addresses". It's just semantics, but it can make one more comfortable > with the idea. The fact is, they're extremely useful, and they work > great. :) Maybe, but is a void* guaranteed any sort of alignment? Otherwise, one might as well use an explicit type, such as (unsigned char*) if that's the addressing granularity intended. Very often, on such calls, the size of the item in chars is specified, so why not use that type? One can always cast an int* to a char*, for example. Yes, I know that stdio.h routines all use void* to point to the transfer area, when in fact they're really working in chars. A subtle point, perhaps, but it rankles my language-correctness conscience. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 16 21:50:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:50:15 -0400 Subject: word-addressed architectures - Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B243A.32078.2369960@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9B0D75.4963.1DDA577@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B8075.9020901@neurotica.com> <4E9B243A.32078.2369960@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9B97E7.5060900@neurotica.com> On 10/16/2011 09:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> It helps to not think of them as "pointers", but simply as "memory >> addresses". It's just semantics, but it can make one more comfortable >> with the idea. The fact is, they're extremely useful, and they work >> great. :) > > Maybe, but is a void* guaranteed any sort of alignment? Otherwise, > one might as well use an explicit type, such as (unsigned char*) if > that's the addressing granularity intended. Very often, on such > calls, the size of the item in chars is specified, so why not use > that type? One can always cast an int* to a char*, for example. What if you're sorting, say, structs? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 16 22:09:18 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:09:18 -0400 Subject: word-addressed architectures - Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B97E7.5060900@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9B0D75.4963.1DDA577@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B8075.9020901@neurotica.com> <4E9B243A.32078.2369960@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9B97E7.5060900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9B9C5E.9080305@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/10/11 10:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/16/2011 09:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> It helps to not think of them as "pointers", but simply as "memory >>> addresses". It's just semantics, but it can make one more comfortable >>> with the idea. The fact is, they're extremely useful, and they work >>> great. :) >> >> Maybe, but is a void* guaranteed any sort of alignment? Otherwise, >> one might as well use an explicit type, such as (unsigned char*) if >> that's the addressing granularity intended. Very often, on such >> calls, the size of the item in chars is specified, so why not use >> that type? One can always cast an int* to a char*, for example. > > What if you're sorting, say, structs? Use a pointer to a struct? Or are you referring to say the interface to qsort() which requires void*? That always was a bit /off/, but it's about the best C can do about polymorphic parameters. --T > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 22:41:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:41:38 -0700 Subject: word-addressed architectures - Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B97E7.5060900@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9B243A.32078.2369960@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9B97E7.5060900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9B4182.22970.2A8F7A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2011 at 22:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > What if you're sorting, say, structs? Cast the pointer to the struct--you're going to have to supply the length in chars of the struct anyway. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Sun Oct 16 23:14:54 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:14:54 -0700 Subject: 11/03 system available in Spokane additional info In-Reply-To: <4E9A028D.300@att.net> References: <201110151954.p9FJsNMN013252@floodgap.com> <4E9A028D.300@att.net> Message-ID: <4E9BABBE.8010006@att.net> On 10/15/2011 3:00 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Listed on CraigList Spokane. PDP 11/03 with 2 Rx02 drives in a > cabinet. 2 "winchester" drives included as well. > > Seller is asking $200 and "wants it gone." System was apparently > operational when he acquired it. > > Item 2636158984 > > steve > > > Seller provided a list of cards in the system today. Still looking for a new home for the system PDP 11-03:(have photos of all the cards if anyone wants to see them. M7270 KD11-HA LSI-11/2 CPU (card 2) ????? CRC-MSV11 Memory (card 3) M8029 RXV21 RX02 floppy controller (card 4) ????? ????? M8043 DLV11-J equivalent (card 5) ????? ????? winchester controller??? (card 6) email him direct at: salegeg at q.com steve From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 17 01:00:58 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:00:58 +0200 Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <4E9B566F.70705@gmail.com> References: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> <4E9B566F.70705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 05:10:55PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >I never understood the populrity of that approximation. > >31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 / > >10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 > >is more accurate. > > If you encode the digits using something with more scope than > characters 0..9, there's a lot less to memorize. ;-) > > such as: ? /P From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 17 06:26:53 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:26:53 -0400 Subject: Floating point, =?UTF-8?B?z4AgLSBSZTogQyB0cml2aWEgLSB3YXMgUmU=?= =?UTF-8?B?OiBEXVtlbm5pcyBSaXRjaGllIGhhcyBkaWVkXQ==?= In-Reply-To: <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> References: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> <4E9B566F.70705@gmail.com> <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E9C10FD.9070908@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/10/11 2:00 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 05:10:55PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I never understood the populrity of that approximation. >>> 31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 / >>> 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 >>> is more accurate. >> >> If you encode the digits using something with more scope than >> characters 0..9, there's a lot less to memorize. ;-) >> >> > > > such as: ? > Well played, sir. --Toby > /P > From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 07:07:14 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:07:14 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B452F.4030505@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> >> To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us >> agree C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, >> what does everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming >> language? > What problems do you want to solve? My inability to identify a good general purpose UNIX programming language that is compiled to native code and has good library support :-) I'd like to be able to write apps with a GUI and be able to issue SQL, just general purpose stuff. >> to me nothing has the library, GUI support etc. like C and C++ do, but >> those languages seem suboptimal for most things. I write almost no code >> on UNIX because I haven't ever found a traditional compiled language I >> like > What languages DO you like? On IBM I prefer assembler. PL/I is a good (excellent) general purpose language. Ada 95 is also a good general purpose langauge, but stiffer than PL/I and can be annoying especially when working with strings. I'm not aware of any PL/I for UNIX or Linux, and Ada while available and very good, lacks SQL and GUI support or quickly runs into GPL contamination issues just from linking libraries which is not something I'm going to get into. The ncurses interface for Ada is excellent btw but ncurses has limitations. >> that has enough support to make it usable. > Many languages have a lot of "support" these days (for example, one can > no longer say that Scheme or CL or Haskell etc lack organised libraries). The examples you listed aren't general purpose programming languages by any stretch and Scheme and CL are normally byte code compiled although if you look hard enough you can find a native code version here or there, but they all have various quirks. Any language that forces you into a paradigm like "everything is tail recursion" or "every solution is a functional program" is (far) too narrow for general use. I could abuse FORTRAN as it has been for most of its life and force it outside the box, but I don't want to do that. C is a good model of the generic approach in that you can write procedural code or write OO code, basically it lets you do what you want rather than forcing a paradigm on you. In that sense, to me it is good. But it's too low level for my taste and there are other things I don't like about it. PL/I would be about perfect if it existed except for the fact all the UNIX header files are in C. To me that is a problem I don't know how to get around in all languages other than C/C++. > What support do you specifically need? GUI and SQL would be on top of the list. Not sure what else I would want since I don't write code on UNIX yet. Hoping to though. I used to make a point to choose an appropriate (domain specific) language for whatever task I had to solve. I wound up being good enough with many languages and not an expert at any of them back then. There has been so much language development over the years, I'm hoping there is some magic bullet language (for me) that's general enough and high level enough to be easily usable but with interfaces to anything a normal application could want. Maybe that's not a reasonable goal on UNIX, I don't know enough to say. I do know on IBM all of the application programming languages offer more or less the same support for various items like database, UI etc. and I am used to that model. There are a lot less choices over there so we aren't as fussy. UNIX has so many choices, it makes it a little harder kind of like at a restaurant that serves only one thing (pizza, chicken wings) you don't have much deciding to do but if you go to a place with a phone book for a menu all of a sudden life is complicated. I know there is a lot of UNIX knowledge on this list and wanted to bat the idea around a little and hear what people are using for their main GOTO language (no pun intended!) and why. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 07:40:34 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:40:34 -0500 Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> References: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> <4E9B566F.70705@gmail.com> <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E9C2242.2050809@gmail.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 05:10:55PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I never understood the populrity of that approximation. >>> 31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 / >>> 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 >>> is more accurate. >> If you encode the digits using something with more scope than >> characters 0..9, there's a lot less to memorize. ;-) > > such as: ? Heh :-) I did think of mentioning that - but it's only in the extended ASCII set, isn't it? From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 08:05:04 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 06:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <1318449244.74676.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1318449244.74676.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011, Chris M wrote: > > > --- On Tue, 10/11/11, allison wrote: > >> The AmproLB+ had SCSI (using the NCR5380 chip) then it was >> actually SASI >> as the >> SCSI spec was not real then.???Also the >> MicroMint SB180 had a SASI/SCSI >> board (used the 5380) > > The versions we were talking about were designated Little Board PC's. Now that you mention it there were earlier z80 based versions. Don't know what they sported. AFAIK the LBPCs always had SCSI. At least the later v40 based ones did. The board I was referring to is a Z-80 based CP/M machine. It's living in the "Bookcase" enclosure that Ampro made. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 08:06:54 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 06:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E987675.1060603@otter.se> References: <4E987675.1060603@otter.se> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Jonas Otter wrote: > On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:59:46 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) wrote: >> I am very sorry to hear that. >> >> I am sure he won't get the media hype that followed the passing of Steve >> Jobs last week, but I am also sure that dmr had a much greater influence >> on the sort of computing that I am interested in than Steve Jobs did. >> >> :-( > Sad indeed. > > Seeing that OS X is in some sense Unix-based, I would say DMR won... > It's not in "some sense", it *IS*. It just happens to be saddled with a really weird window manager and a one button mouse. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 08:22:58 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 06:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >>> To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us >>> agree C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, >>> what does everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming >>> language? > >> What problems do you want to solve? > > My inability to identify a good general purpose UNIX programming language > that is compiled to native code and has good library support :-) > > I'd like to be able to write apps with a GUI and be able to issue SQL, just > general purpose stuff. > If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 17 08:46:01 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:46:01 +0200 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <20111017134601.GA27377@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 06:22:58AM -0700, Gene Buckle wrote: > >I'd like to be able to write apps with a GUI and be able to issue SQL, just > >general purpose stuff. > > > > If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. Has anyone here given D a shot? /P From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 10:41:53 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:41:53 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201110171541.p9HFfvu8003690@ims-d13.mx.aol.com> > If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. > > g. Thanks Gene. My first reaction was "no way!" since I'm kind of the opposite of what you could remotely call a fan of anything Wirthless had anything to do with except Modula-2. But I started looking over the Free Pascal pages and there's a lot going on there. I know Delphi has been used to create quite a few UIs, Object Pascal seems to have some life left in it and enough guys around to keep it going. Extending your suggestion, I wonder if Kylix is still around or if older copies will run on Linux and UNIX or just Linux, and if any of the Free Pascal and Lazarus code would work with it. BTW thanks for your .sig. I omit mine most of the time but every time I see yours I feel a little better. Mine is actually two lines longer so I will have to be a little more creative and trim it, but still :p -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Wants: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris SPARC | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | | Stony Brook Modula-2 for Solaris SPARC | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 Intel and Solaris 10 SPARC | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 10:48:40 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:48:40 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111017134601.GA27377@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <201110171548.p9HFmmB8023386@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> > Has anyone here given D a shot? >From what I read Walter Bright has been putting out good (great) stuff for decades. I have no doubt D is good and solves a lot of problems he had with C and C++. For my purposes, it's still in the C family and not what I am looking for at the moment. I did not mean to stifle discussion and I would be interested in the answer to your question as well, but just in case you were responding to me I didn't want to ignore you. Thanks for your comment. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 11:01:46 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:01:46 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E987675.1060603@otter.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Jonas Otter wrote: >> Seeing that OS X is in some sense Unix-based, I would say DMR won... >> > It's not in "some sense", it *IS*. Absolutely. When I was offered the choice in 2007 between a work-provided Lenovo Thinkpad (on which I would have run RedHat) or a MacBook (on which I would have left OS X, unlike some associates I know), I jumped on the MacBook. I loved it. First thing I had to fix, though, was putting the Terminal icon in the nav bar. >?It just happens to be saddled with a really weird window manager and a one button mouse. :) It works fine with a multi-button mouse, you just can't get one from the manufacturer. As for the weird window manager, I just used it to keep track of a couple of browser windows and a thick stack of terminal sessions. I don't care what color or shape the widgets are - I just need to close windows, move windows, and open more terminal sessions. Nearly everything else is irrelevant. Oh... and to tie in the recent thread on X, I left that MacBook in my room (this was at the South Pole where we had individual LAN drops for a personal computer and a VOiP phone) and used it from all over station by firing up xterms and occasionally browser windows. I _did_ run a session back to North America once or twice, but the bandwidth and latency (via satellite, sharing a 1Mbps link with everyone else) made that largely impractical. So I'm an atypical user, but there's nothing like a thin (or really long) pipe to make you reconsider fighting with a remote session that slings swaths of pixels around - I find character-based remote access protocols more appealing and productive. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 17 11:15:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:15:00 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111016125824.f499c824.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A740C.1010608@neurotica.com> <20111016125824.f499c824.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E9C5484.7090504@neurotica.com> On 10/16/2011 06:58 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Be careful with those "all CPUs" assertions; server processors are a >> pretty big part of the market, and a GPU would be a very expensive >> useless piece of silicon real estate there. > > Depending on what type of service a server provides, it may use the GPU > to do extensive math, offload en/decryption, complex database search > algorithms, transcoding of audio / video content on the fly, ... > GPUs will evolve into more general purpose coprocessors. Hmm yes, that's a good point. I've done some CUDA programming which is one way to take advantage of otherwise-useless GPUs. I can easily see (say) OpenSSL using them. Databases, well, that'd be a lot of work. In order to not offend the sensibilities of overly anal people (such as myself) there'd need to be some sort of standardized interface to an OS- or library-provided "assists" system, like maybe hash generation, regexp processing, or something like that, and the OS can provide those functions as it's best able to in a given installation. Then, the OS/library side can be set up to send those functions to coprocessors (which may be implemented via GPUs) to speed things up. I use a hardware crypto coprocessor on my big machine here; that's pretty nice. I can see this coming full-circle. For awhile there, the trend was to dump EVERYTHING on the single slow-as-molasses-anyway x86 processor in the box; clueless designers who couldn't see the big picture did things like putting printer handling (all rasterization, etc) and modem DSP in the host processor. Remember "winprinters" and "winmodems"? Now we're "inventing" distributed processing again. It's about time. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 11:22:56 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171541.p9HFfvu8003690@ims-d13.mx.aol.com> References: <201110171541.p9HFfvu8003690@ims-d13.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. >> >> g. > > Thanks Gene. My first reaction was "no way!" since I'm kind of the opposite > of what you could remotely call a fan of anything Wirthless had anything to > do with except Modula-2. But I started looking over the Free Pascal pages > and there's a lot going on there. I know Delphi has been used to create > quite a few UIs, Object Pascal seems to have some life left in it and > enough guys around to keep it going. Extending your suggestion, I wonder if > Kylix is still around or if older copies will run on Linux and UNIX or just > Linux, and if any of the Free Pascal and Lazarus code would work with it. > Kylix is no longer available, but Embarcadero (the company that now owns the Delphi/C++ Builder toolchain) have a new Linux version on their 2012 roadmap. The latest release of Delphi (XE2) natively supports iOS/MacOS and Windows 32 & 64 bit dev. This includes their C++ Builder product. > BTW thanks for your .sig. I omit mine most of the time but every time I see > yours I feel a little better. Mine is actually two lines longer so I will > have to be a little more creative and trim it, but still :p I look at it this way - if they don't like it, they're free to reference Figure One. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 11:33:48 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E987675.1060603@otter.se> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Fri, 14 Oct 2011, Jonas Otter wrote: >>> Seeing that OS X is in some sense Unix-based, I would say DMR won... >>> >> It's not in "some sense", it *IS*. > > Absolutely. When I was offered the choice in 2007 between a > work-provided Lenovo Thinkpad (on which I would have run RedHat) or a > MacBook (on which I would have left OS X, unlike some associates I > know), I jumped on the MacBook. I loved it. First thing I had to > fix, though, was putting the Terminal icon in the nav bar. > I recently purchased a MacBook myself. Getting used to the touchpad has been the hardest part - I'm going to just punt and grab my USB Kensington Trackball. :) >> ?It just happens to be saddled with a really weird window manager and a one button mouse. :) > > It works fine with a multi-button mouse, you just can't get one from > the manufacturer. As for the weird window manager, I just used it to > keep track of a couple of browser windows and a thick stack of > terminal sessions. I don't care what color or shape the widgets are - > I just need to close windows, move windows, and open more terminal > sessions. Nearly everything else is irrelevant. > What's getting me right now is the little differences between how MacOS does things and how I'm used to doing them in Windows. I need to nail down in my head the copy/paste short cuts for example. :) I only bought it because building a Hacktintosh was more hassle than I wanted to deal with (although it would have been a MUCH better value in the long run). I want to be able to write software for my iPad - I can't stand to have a GP computer I can't write software for if I want to. :) > Oh... and to tie in the recent thread on X, I left that MacBook in my > room (this was at the South Pole where we had individual LAN drops for > a personal computer and a VOiP phone) and used it from all over > station by firing up xterms and occasionally browser windows. I _did_ > run a session back to North America once or twice, but the bandwidth What would be neat (for me anyway) is a remote desktop client that I could run on a Windows box that would allow me access to the native MacOS desktop (and the XCode IDE from there)... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 11:40:47 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:40:47 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died Message-ID: <27725754-1318869643-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1702742373-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Heh thanks. The famous one finger salute! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 17 11:42:57 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 17, 11 09:33:48 am" Message-ID: <201110171642.p9HGgvLl016538@floodgap.com> > What would be neat (for me anyway) is a remote desktop client that I could > run on a Windows box that would allow me access to the native MacOS > desktop (and the XCode IDE from there)... Not VNC? I use VNC to a little Intel Mac mini for the few times I need to run x86 Mac programs or test against 10.6 (with 10.5 in VirtualBox). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Greg Morris --------------------------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 17 11:58:12 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:58:12 -0600 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9C5EA4.1040002@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/17/2011 7:22 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. But what are they written in? > g. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 12:01:35 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171642.p9HGgvLl016538@floodgap.com> References: <201110171642.p9HGgvLl016538@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> What would be neat (for me anyway) is a remote desktop client that I could >> run on a Windows box that would allow me access to the native MacOS >> desktop (and the XCode IDE from there)... > > Not VNC? > > I use VNC to a little Intel Mac mini for the few times I need to run x86 > Mac programs or test against 10.6 (with 10.5 in VirtualBox). I haven't tried it yet. Too many other things going on right now. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 12:06:47 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:06:47 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died Message-ID: <471563815-1318871203-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-234290008-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> I think Free Pascal is self-hosting. Is that right, Gene? ------Original Message------ From: ben Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died Sent: 17 Oct 2011 16:58 On 10/17/2011 7:22 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. But what are they written in? > g. > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 17 12:32:34 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 17, 11 10:01:35 am" Message-ID: <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> > >> What would be neat (for me anyway) is a remote desktop client that I could > >> run on a Windows box that would allow me access to the native MacOS > >> desktop (and the XCode IDE from there)... > > > > Not VNC? > > > > I use VNC to a little Intel Mac mini for the few times I need to run x86 > > Mac programs or test against 10.6 (with 10.5 in VirtualBox). > > I haven't tried it yet. Too many other things going on right now. :( The nice thing about VNC is that the Screen Sharing feature on OS X is in fact a superset of VNC, so any Windows VNC client will work. I think that's the way to go for you. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told ---- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 12:43:39 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> References: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> <4E9B566F.70705@gmail.com> <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20111017095725.I73202@shell.lmi.net> > > >31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 / > > >10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > such as: ?? Exactly! BUT, sadly, that is UTF-8, NOT ASCII! On this machine, it shows up as a three character sequence of an underlined inverted 'T' (or castrated "plus/minus", or 5150 character 215), followed by a "caret" ('^'), followed by an "at symbol" ('@'). 'PI' is in the 5150 extensions to ASCII as character 227 UTF-8 matches ASCII for UTF-8's first 127 characters, and then appears to diverge into multi-byte sequences [for some definitions of "byte"] UTF-8 was apparently heavily influenced by Ken Thompson, but was Ritchie ever involved in its development? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 12:53:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:53:36 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> References: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 17, 11 10:01:35 am", <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E9C0930.28475.57FD35@cclist.sydex.com> Would it be a fair statement to say that had it not been for Unix and AT&T's (initial) "anyone can get a license as we're not in the software business" approach that "C" today would largely be a language relegated to the programming backwater? And that "we're not in the software business" aspect was stipulated by law. So regulation is largely responsible for the popularity of Unix and C? In other words, had Unix been a closed proprietary OS, would we even be talking about C? Or would it be sort of a vintage curiosity like BCPL or B? --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 17 13:39:11 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111017134601.GA27377@Update.UU.SE> References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> <20111017134601.GA27377@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 06:22:58AM -0700, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I'd like to be able to write apps with a GUI and be able to issue SQL, just >>> general purpose stuff. >> >> If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. > > Has anyone here given D a shot? I always thought that "D" was one of the traditional names to give to languages created in introductory compiler design classes. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 13:47:09 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:47:09 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C0930.28475.57FD35@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> <4E9C0930.28475.57FD35@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would it be a fair statement to say that had it not been for Unix and > AT&T's (initial) "anyone can get a license as we're not in the > software business" approach that "C" today would largely be a > language relegated to the programming backwater? I think that's a fair question. > And that "we're not in the software business" aspect was stipulated > by law. ? So regulation is largely responsible for the popularity of > Unix and C? Certainly AT&T had that attitude as a direct result of governmental (juduical) action. > In other words, had Unix been a closed proprietary OS, would we even > be talking about C? ?Or would it be sort of a vintage curiosity like > BCPL or B? Entirely possible. My first exposure to C was in the context of producing computer-based hands-on museum exhibits in the late 1970s. I was proposing a Commodore-PET-based solution written in BASIC. The other option was an S-100 box running a standalone app written in C and run from ROM. While my proposal didn't win, I did note that the winning proposal cost several times more, part of which was the royalty to the 8-bit C compiler vendor for the run-time library. The eventual unbundling of the cost of hundreds of commonly-used functions was to my observation *critical* to the commercial adoption of C programs outside of UNIX. My initial reactions to C were horribly tainted by that experience. Why would I want to learn a language that obligated me to pay or pass along the cost of hundreds of dollars per deliverable program when I could bring the entire project in at a fraction of the cost with BASIC, assembler, or a combination of the two? I read the articles in "Byte", c. 1979-1983, about C (something I can recommend to the list - there really is some good stuff in there), but was unswayed. It wasn't until the mid-1980s that I experienced C + UNIX, where there was *always a compiler* and where there was no overhead to write and distribute code that I really learned C. I've been using it ever since. -ethan From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 14:11:59 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:11:59 +0000 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C0930.28475.57FD35@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110171912.p9HJC3A9029398@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> > In other words, had Unix been a closed proprietary OS, would we even be > talking about C? Or would it be sort of a vintage curiosity like BCPL or > B? If you look at IBM as an example, many (most?) of their languages went on to fame both on their own platforms and off. FORTRAN, COBOL, and PL/I are the best examples. None of that was ever open source in IBM land and they're all still popular. If you are saying the popularity and pervasiveness of C is primarily because it was used to write UNIX (and then Linux), I would certainly agree with that. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 17 14:33:43 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:33:43 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C0930.28475.57FD35@cclist.sydex.com> References: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 17, 11 10:01:35 am", <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> <4E9C0930.28475.57FD35@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8981f94eb9ee2ffc01e39f84afd223da@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Oct 17, at 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would it be a fair statement to say that had it not been for Unix and > AT&T's (initial) "anyone can get a license as we're not in the > software business" approach that "C" today would largely be a > language relegated to the programming backwater? > > And that "we're not in the software business" aspect was stipulated > by law. So regulation is largely responsible for the popularity of > Unix and C? > > In other words, had Unix been a closed proprietary OS, would we even > be talking about C? Or would it be sort of a vintage curiosity like > BCPL or B? At the time (late-60s/70s), there was an interest in having a language "just above assembler" for things like OS-development - something that would provide for symbols, expressions, and standard control flow (i.e. be readable), be independant of machine instructions (even if not an abstraction completely independant of the hardware), but still be directly translateable to machine code and leave the programmer with a sense of what would happen on the hardware. I would suggest that if not C, another C-like, CPL/BCPL/B descendant would have been developed to fill that interest. (I've mentioned it here before, I worked with such a language ("Z") in the late-70s era. Z was also a descendant of BCPL/B (hence a sibling of C), with byte addressing added and some other improvements.) For those not fond of C, one might say things went awry when C was picked up and became commonplace for 'higher-level' general-purpose programming in the 80s. But what were the choices at the time?: assembler (tedious, not portable), BASIC (gross), Algol (that might be a candidate), PL/I (big, limited availability), Pascal (limited, IMO), Ada (I remember looking forward to Ada in the time it was being developed, but it too was big and took on committee problems, and was perhaps too late to become a major presence). In a time of limited memory and speed, C was flexible and targetable to the microprocs of the 80's. In the 90s, "improved C" languages became available (splitting into two tracks - compiled/interpreted). Not all of them were an improvement however, or they were so improved (e.g. C++) that people just stuck with C for many purposes. The whole history is also a comment on independant, grass-roots development and evolution versus standards-committee bloat and mandate. I also wonder how much of the popularity of C and associated languages is just "{}" vs. "begin/end". I personally can't stand begin-end languages just because all those begin-ends present so much visual clutter in the program text (although I do have a fondness for Algol). From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 17 14:36:52 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <20111017095725.I73202@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Oct 17, 11 10:43:39 am" Message-ID: <201110171936.p9HJaqZ0013918@floodgap.com> > 'PI' is in the 5150 extensions to ASCII as character 227 iF WE ALL USED petscii THEN WE WOULD HAVE A PI CHARACTER, BUT ONLY IN UPPERCASE MODE. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Garbage in -- gospel out" ------------------------------------------------- From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 17 14:38:03 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:38:03 -0400 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9C841B.4020502@arachelian.com> On 10/17/2011 08:07 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I know there is a lot of UNIX knowledge on this list and wanted to bat > the idea around a little and hear what people are using for their main > GOTO language (no pun intended!) and why. Whilst willfully ignoring the subject's request, I remembered this. I think it's a fitting tribute to dmr. (Piano version here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHosLhPEN3k ) Filk author Brian Marshall Write in C When I find my code in tons of trouble, Friends and colleagues come to me, Speaking words of wisdom: "Write in C." As the deadline fast approaches, And bugs are all that I can see, Somewhere, someone whispers: "Write in C." Write in C, Write in C, Write in C, oh, Write in C. LOGO's dead and buried, Write in C. I used to write a lot of FORTRAN, For science it worked flawlessly. Try using it for graphics! Write in C. If you've just spent nearly 30 hours Debugging some assembly, Soon you will be glad to Write in C. Write in C, Write in C, Write in C, yeah, Write in C. Only wimps use BASIC. Write in C. Write in C, Write in C Write in C, oh, Write in C. Pascal won't quite cut it. Write in C. Write in C, Write in C, Write in C, yeah, Write in C. Don't even mention COBOL. Write in C. (and what about C++ ?) From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 14:43:09 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:43:09 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died Message-ID: <786396637-1318880585-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1550900813-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Even I could appreciate that (except for the verse about assembler, which I find easier to debug than anything else). From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 17 14:53:57 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:53:57 -0400 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <786396637-1318880585-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1550900813-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <786396637-1318880585-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1550900813-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4E9C87D5.1000500@arachelian.com> On 10/17/2011 03:43 PM, Vintage Coder wrote: > Even I could appreciate that (except for the verse about assembler, which I find easier to debug than anything else). > > Hey, I didn't write those verse, I only shared them. :) From jonas at otter.se Sun Oct 16 16:10:25 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:10:25 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9B4841.8090902@otter.se> > start by undoing a lot of what they had previously been taught, such as > that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I > got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) Aarrghh!! Is that what they teach in American schools?? That is *evil*. My mother once had a teacher who when his pupils were bad, told them to behave, otherwise he would teach them wrong. In his opinion that was the worst punishment he could think of. I am absoutely sure that over here everybody is taught, and always has been, the difference between natural, real, rational and irrational numbers, and that pi is an irrational number which can be approximated by 22/7. The Swedish school system may have very serious problems, but hearing this kind of thing makes me very, very grateful that my kids haven't grown up in the USA. /Jonas From doug at doughq.com Mon Oct 17 02:18:11 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:18:11 +1100 Subject: Floating point, [__ - Re: C trivia - was Re: D][ennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> References: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> <20111016141700.H62224@shell.lmi.net> <4E9B566F.70705@gmail.com> <20111017060058.GA15808@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Gold!!! On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 05:10:55PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > >I never understood the populrity of that approximation. > > >31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 > / > > >10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 > > >is more accurate. > > > > If you encode the digits using something with more scope than > > characters 0..9, there's a lot less to memorize. ;-) > > > > > > > such as: ? > > /P > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From tingox at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 14:23:53 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:23:53 +0200 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C5EA4.1040002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> <4E9C5EA4.1040002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:58 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/17/2011 7:22 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> >> If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. > > But what are they written in? Is that a trick question? Free Pascal is written in Pascal: http://www.freepascal.org/faq.var#WhatIsFP -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From doc at vaxen.net Mon Oct 17 15:01:48 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:01:48 -0500 Subject: UNIX and C history Message-ID: <4E9C89AC.4060404@vaxen.net> The ongoing thread about the origins of C and UNIX have made me wonder about something I was told years ago: "UNIX was written as a host platform for C *development* and was not originally envisioned as the production platform for applications developed on it." In other words, the intent was that developers would write code on UNIX, then port it to an "application-oriented" OS for production. Is there any truth to that? Doc From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 17 15:03:56 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:03:56 -0700 Subject: programming languages and compilers (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <201110171912.p9HJC3A9029398@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> References: <201110171912.p9HJC3A9029398@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9C8A2C.90601@brouhaha.com> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > If you look at IBM as an example, many (most?) of their languages went on to > fame both on their own platforms and off. FORTRAN, COBOL, and PL/I are the > best examples. None of that was ever open source in IBM land [...] Incorrect. Those were open source until the great unbundling of June 23, 1969. In fact, it went beyond just "open source"; they were in the public domain, along with the operating systems they ran on (e.g., OS/360 21.8, DOS/360 and TOS/360 26.2, MVS 3.8, TSS/370 3.0). From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 15:04:26 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:04:26 +0000 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <8981f94eb9ee2ffc01e39f84afd223da@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201110172004.p9HK4Vpx006723@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> > At the time (late-60s/70s), there was an interest in having a language > "just above assembler" for things like OS-development - something that > would provide for symbols, expressions, and standard control flow (i.e. > be readable), There were a few of those around already. IBM had PL/S (or PL/AS, I can't remember which was first) and Wirth had PL360. PL/S was virtually a high level assembler with no runtime. PL360 was higher level still. > be independant of machine instructions (even if not an abstraction > completely independant of the hardware), but still be directly > translateable to machine code and leave the programmer with a sense of > what would happen on the hardware. I believe PL/S and PL360 met all of those requirements except for being independent of machine instructions, since PL/S and its follow-ons were all proprietary. I guess Wirth could have ported PL360 to other machines and now that I'm reading your email I wonder why he didn't. > For those not fond of C, one might say things went awry when C was picked > up and became commonplace for 'higher-level' general-purpose programming > in the 80s. I don't like C but what I don't like about it is subjective and I readily concede my dislike is purely personal and on an objective level there is really nothing wrong with C, indeed it's just about perfect for what it is for. I think you hit the nail on the head. Using C for general purpose programming seems overly tedious to me, especially compared to my framework which is assembler or HLL and nothing really in between. > But what were the choices at the time?: assembler (tedious, not > portable), BASIC (gross), Algol (that might be a candidate), PL/I (big, > limited availability), Pascal (limited, IMO), Ada (I remember looking > forward to Ada in the time it was being developed, but it too was big and > took on committee problems, and was perhaps too late to become a major > presence). In a time of limited memory and speed, C was flexible and > targetable to the microprocs of the 80's. A good assembler is perfectly situated for writing an OS and not at all tedious. But a lot depends on the architecture as well as the assembler. Digital Research and other companies (Intel) did have PL/I subset or PL/I derivative (PL/M) compilers, so I don't think you can argue it was too big for microprocessors. I think it was as Chuck suggested, sort of being at the right place at the right time, and having what would become the most pervasive OS written using it that led to C becoming indispensable. Ada 83 is a (very) small language compared to C++, tiny if you factor in the standard libraries and templates of C++. I remember the hype at the time but I believe it was unwarranted and wrong in many ways. In fact, looking at Ada 95 I see some really nice design went into it and Ada 83. I don't see any bloat in either Ada 83 or 95. You could argue they got a little off course with 2005 and beyond, but so has almost every other language. That's part of what has made it hard for me to find a language I like on UNIX. Everything is so big and complicated now nobody can know a whole language. I'm not used to that, all the languages I learned were on a whole different scale and you could eventually know all there was to know. Today that is almost impossible. > I also wonder how much of the popularity of C and associated languages is > just "{}" vs. "begin/end". I personally can't stand begin-end languages > just because all those begin-ends present so much visual clutter in the > program text (although I do have a fondness for Algol). I don't think that was a factor but I do agree it's an issue. Aesthetics are important, especially if you write code for a living. You have to like what you do and it has to feel right. I'm a bracket hater, they seem ugly to me. Like you, I liked ALGOL (particularly ALGOL68) but I disliked Pascal. I found PL/I's syntax very simple and easy to live with. Finding a language that hits the sweet spot is a rare pleasure. From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 17 15:05:17 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:05:17 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died Message-ID: <590668189-1318881913-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1728731024-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Thanks, good stuff! ------Original Message------ From: Ray Arachelian Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died Sent: 17 Oct 2011 19:53 On 10/17/2011 03:43 PM, Vintage Coder wrote: > Even I could appreciate that (except for the verse about assembler, which I find easier to debug than anything else). > > Hey, I didn't write those verse, I only shared them. :) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 15:33:45 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:33:45 -0500 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9C5484.7090504@neurotica.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A740C.1010608@neurotica.com> <20111016125824.f499c824.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E9C5484.7090504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9C9129.1040602@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I can see this coming full-circle. For awhile there, the trend was to > dump EVERYTHING on the single slow-as-molasses-anyway x86 processor in > the box; clueless designers who couldn't see the big picture did things > like putting printer handling (all rasterization, etc) and modem DSP in > the host processor. Remember "winprinters" and "winmodems"? Now we're > "inventing" distributed processing again. It's about time. ;) Was that really 'clueless'? I always understood it to be a cost thing; a hardware designer could implement a modem or printer for far less $$$ if all the processing work was done by the host system's CPU - but they could still sell it as a modem or printer indistinguishable on the packaging from a better product (which did have its own local processing), so long as their software would run under the host machine's OS. I think they saw the big picture all too clearly, and saw a way of maximizing returns by peddling junk that the public would happily buy anyway (this goes back to our discussion about how people often seem to *expect* computers to be buggy and sometimes slow down for no apparent reason. They wouldn't necessarily associate it with the modem or printer, and even if they did it'd be OK because "that's just the way computers are"). cheers Jules From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 17 15:36:00 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:36:00 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110172004.p9HK4Vpx006723@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> References: <201110172004.p9HK4Vpx006723@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> On 10/17/2011 04:04 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > > A good assembler is perfectly situated for writing an OS and not at all > tedious. But a lot depends on the architecture as well as the assembler. So, um, what do you do when you want to port your assembly only OS to x86_64, PPC, SPARC, MIPS, ARM from your original platform? (Re)Write in C? :-D From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 15:53:38 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E975DE6.9626.2C18DC3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E97C3FD.6000306@mail.msu.edu> <4E9765CF.25580.2E07294@cclist.sydex.com> <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/13/11 10:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> A lot of Ultrastor, DTC and Future Domain controllers use it. If >> you have one of the DTK Mini-micro floppy controllers, you'll find it >> there as well. >> > > Here are all of the ISA controllers with a DP8473, extracted from an old > controller list I'm reasonably sure the Compaticard IV will handle 128-byte sectors. ISTR reading CP/M SD diskettes on mine. -- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 15:59:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:59:15 -0700 Subject: programming languages and compilers (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <4E9C8A2C.90601@brouhaha.com> References: <201110171912.p9HJC3A9029398@imr-da02.mx.aol.com>, <4E9C8A2C.90601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9C34B3.31493.101F1EF@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2011 at 13:03, Eric Smith wrote: > Incorrect. Those were open source until the great unbundling of June > 23, 1969. In fact, it went beyond just "open source"; they were in > the public domain, along with the operating systems they ran on (e.g., > OS/360 21.8, DOS/360 and TOS/360 26.2, MVS 3.8, TSS/370 3.0). There was a somewhat different attitude back before the days of "commodity CPUs". If you, as a customer, had an interest in modifying or adapting any system code, you could, with a little wrangling perhaps, get a copy of the source code. Site analysts routinely suggested corrective fixes to code. The system code was a necessary evil to sell the hardware. And the picture was often mutual--customers contributed whole products that became part of the standard line. In at least one case that I'm familiar with, the whole operating system for a machine was written by a customer. I know that IBM was irked by systems such as the RCA Spectrola or one of the Two-Pi boxes that could run IBM object code, but I don't know if IBM ever filed suit. It was a very good idea to have the capability to run competitor's customer source code without too much tweaking, as well as being able to read their tapes. When AT&T essentially offered Unix for free, it was no big deal. The big deal was that it was written in C and if you could get a C compiler going for your CPU (or at least a cross-compler), you *might* stand a chance of getting a functional OS up quickly. But heck, this isn't the first case of an OS being written in an HLL. That probably goes to the system software for the B5000 series (extended Algol). During the 70s, CDC even made a move away from assembly to a dialect of Pascal called SYMPL and other vendors did likewise. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 16:00:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:00:43 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> References: <201110172004.p9HK4Vpx006723@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com>, <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E9C350B.25116.1034AA9@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2011 at 16:36, Ray Arachelian wrote: > So, um, what do you do when you want to port your assembly only OS to > x86_64, PPC, SPARC, MIPS, ARM from your original platform? (Re)Write > in C? :-D Algol. Burroughs used it on the B5000 and succeeding machines circa 1961. --Chuck From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 16:05:34 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:05:34 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> References: <201110172004.p9HK4Vpx006723@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> Message-ID: Well, I've tried to learn C before but never got very far because for the basic things I do with code, it's always felt like overkill. This time, I guess I'm going to have to learn it for real as a memorial. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 16:11:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:11:43 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4E9C379F.32607.10D5CB9@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2011 at 16:53, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm reasonably sure the Compaticard IV will handle 128-byte sectors. > ISTR reading CP/M SD diskettes on mine. Oddly enough, I don't believe so. The internal operation of the PC8477 is more in line with the Intel 82077 before Intel broke it by adding tape support (i.e. run from the 82077AA-1 as fast as you can). Note that the problem is not 128-byte sectors per se, but rather 128- byte sectors recorded in MFM. Even the NEC uPD 765 is seriously broken in this respect. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 16:17:00 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C5EA4.1040002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> <4E9C5EA4.1040002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, ben wrote: > On 10/17/2011 7:22 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> >> If you don't want to use C/C++, you can't beat FreePascal & Lazarus. > > But what are they written in? > FreePascal & Lazarus. :) AFAIK, they're 100% self-hosted. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 16:17:35 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <471563815-1318871203-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-234290008-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <471563815-1318871203-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-234290008-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Vintage Coder wrote: > I think Free Pascal is self-hosting. Is that right, Gene? > As far as I know, yes. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 17 16:18:57 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> References: <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> What would be neat (for me anyway) is a remote desktop client that I could >>>> run on a Windows box that would allow me access to the native MacOS >>>> desktop (and the XCode IDE from there)... >>> >>> Not VNC? >>> >>> I use VNC to a little Intel Mac mini for the few times I need to run x86 >>> Mac programs or test against 10.6 (with 10.5 in VirtualBox). >> >> I haven't tried it yet. Too many other things going on right now. :( > > The nice thing about VNC is that the Screen Sharing feature on OS X is > in fact a superset of VNC, so any Windows VNC client will work. I think > that's the way to go for you. Thanks for the tip Cameron. I'll look into it when I get the chance. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 15:17:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:17:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9543BA.2080708@acc.umu.se> from "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=" at Oct 12, 11 09:37:30 am Message-ID: > I once wrote a turbopascal program that used the parallel port and it's=20 > control lines to transmit and receive a 128 bit synchronously 300 baud=20 > signal to a care phone (not a car phone, it was a home alarm for elderly=20 > people). So the parallel port can be used as a modem. > :-) Being pedantic about it, it appears you were bit-banging serial I/O over lines of the IBM printer interface, in which case I think it becomes a serial port :-). No sane person callse the CoCo printer/modem port a parallel interface for all it's driven by lines on a 6821, do they? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 15:13:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:13:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power brick repair In-Reply-To: <4E94B3E7.8010609@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 11, 11 11:23:51 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 13:42:15 -0500, "Michael B. Brutman" > wrote: > > Please, enough of the self-righteousness that always seems to highlight > > your purist tendencies, including the ability to construct transistors > > from raw materials and simple hand tools. We know where you stand already. > > I would hardly call Tony self-righteous. He does have strong opinions Thank you. > and lives by his convictions, but I have always got the clear impression Indeed I do have strong opinions, but I try to have reasons for them. For example, I object to random board-swapping because there are logical reasons why it can give the wrong result. I promote component-level repair (and even repairing components in some cases, like rewinding motors) because that seems to be the only way to keep an old machine going -- you can't get known-good replacement assemblies any more. Similarly, I do feel tha the PSU, and even things liek fans, are part of the design of the machine, which is why I like to keep the original circuity wherever possible. For example, the PDP1/44 (And some 11/24s) use strange fans running off a 35V 70Hz AC supply generated on one fo the PSU boards. Of coruse plenty of other thigns will cool the machine just as well. You may feel that replacing the fans with 12V DC ones and runnign them off the memory supply is acceptable. To me it isn't, that fan circuit is very much part of the deisgn. So I would take the time to replace bearingsi n the fans, even rewidn them if I ahd to. But in the end it comes down to the owner of each machine to decide what he wants to do. > that he accepts other people's right to do as they please with their own Of coruse. I do however reserve the right not to reply to messages if I disaprove of what's going on. > stuff. He will try to convince you that you should reconsider, if you > propose doing something which he thinks is wrong, however I don't think In some cases. However, I hope I also give an alternative. I don't think I've ever simply replied 'damn boardswapper!' and left it at that, unless I've put a smiley on the end. I will try to suggest tests and repairs to find the fualt. > that the connotation > "especiallywhensmuglymoralisticandintolerantoftheopinionsandbehaviorofothers" > of the word "self-righteous" (from dictionary.com) applies. Being > intolerant is not the same as disagreeing and trying to convince people > they are wrong. Intolerance implies refusing other people the right to > their opinions. Of course. Here, I'll state it : You have the right to do what the heck you like with your own machines. You have the absolute right to disagree with me as much as you like (of course I also have the right to disagree with you). However, disagreements are much more useful when there are reasons for it. If I say 'You're an idiot for wanting to replace the TRS-80 power brick with a PC power supply' and leave it at that, I think it helps nobody. If I say 'Because of the design of the TRS-80 model 1 -- that the PSU regulators are on the main logic board -- it's difficult to use a noraml PC power supply to power this machine. However the power brick onlt contains 4 components, so it should be quite easy to sort out...' (and then go on to explai nthe design), then you have some infromation which you can use to decide what to do -- whether to modiy the TRS--80 to take in regulated voltages and use a PC power supply or whether to attempt to repair the brick. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 15:46:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:46:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 16, 11 01:32:24 pm Message-ID: > > During the span of my teaching, I watched the transition from VERY few > people remembering how to compute a square root ("well, it looks a like I read the method a few times, but found I prefered Newton's method : Guess a sqaure root of the givien number Y and call it X(0). Any positive guess will do, you cna use 1 in all cases, it just takes a little longer to converge Now keep on calculating X(N+1) = (X(N) + (Y/X(N)))/2 until X(N+1) and X(N) are 'close'. Than that's the square root. For example, in RPL, define 'ITER' as \<< OVER OVER / + 2 /\>> (Takes Y as second on stack, X(N) on top of stack, returns Y (unchanged) in second on stack, X(N+1) on top of stack). Now put 2 (value to find square root of) and 1 (initial guess) on the stack and repeadedly execute ITER. The X(N) values are : 1, 1.5, 1.4166666666, 1.41421568628, 1.41421356238, and that remains unchanged (on my HP48). It converges very fast... > > But of course such amchines are not mathematically perfect, there are > > rounding erorrs and the like [1]. I feel that if you'r not going to > > teach how to do soemthing by hand becuase everybody uses a machine to do > > it, you should instead teach why the machine doesnt' always get the > > mathematically correct resualt, and how to handle the common pitfalls. > > "Get a better calculator/computer/floating point co-processor" > "Just use 'double precision'" Ah yes... Akin to the 'solution' of throwing ever faster processors at a problem in the hope it'll go away'... Of course neither actually solves the underlying problem. I can rememebr when HP sold a manual (15C advanced user guide or soemthing similar) which actually had a chapter as to why the machine didn't always give the 'right answer' and how to use it properly. I cna't see any manufactuer doing that now :-( > > Just making them divide 1 by 3, write down the result, and then multiply > what they had written by 3 actually helped! Am I allowed to work in any number system I like? If so, I'll pick base 3 and write 1/3 = 0.1 :-) > > > that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I > > > got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) > > I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. > > "Because the textbook says, 'PI is about 3.14.16 or 22/7', and therefore > since the textbook said that 3.14.16 is 'ABOUT', but didn't say 'ABOUT > 22/7', it is exactly 22/7 ." > The principal did not know better! Did you have a cluestick handy? > My parents knew better, but would not believe my protestations that > disagreeing, and refusing to retract, was all that I had done wrong. > In the eyes of the school system, any kid who knows more than 3 digits of > PI in 5th grade needs to be brought back into compliance with the norm. > (no, that did not remain my only manifestation of maladjustment) You may have guessed that one of my main occupations at school was driving so-called teachers insane... > > > 'How I need a drink, alcholic of course after the heavy lectures involving > > quatnm mechanics' Argh!. I checked and double checked that and still made a typo... > BUT, you have 3.141592653589 6 9 > instead of 3.141592653589 8 9 ^ 7, surely? > in spite of presumably knowing a bit about quantum mechanics. Do I? I may be a particle physicist, but I can assue you I did a lot more with transputers and ECL than with quarks... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 15:55:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:55:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floating point, In-Reply-To: <201110162102.p9GL2Ciu015348@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 16, 11 02:02:12 pm Message-ID: > > > > I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. > > > 355/113 is more accurate and easier to remember > > > > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 52163/16604 is > > more accurate. It is, but only slightly. The abvsolute error is 2.6621e-7 as against 2.6676e-7 for 355/113, And it's a lot harder to remember. > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 86953/27678 is > more accurate. (*) Sure, and there ae ever more accurate rational approximations. THing is, 355/113 is very easy to remember and is accurate enough for a lot of work. If I am calcuating the circumference of a part I am turning on the lathe, I can't measure the diameter to anything like 6 significant figures, so taking $\pi$ as 355/113 does not significantly degrade the result. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 16:36:30 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:36:30 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 10:30 PM > One of the most evil programming conventions ever foisted on the > computer community--null-terminated character strings. While I'm > sure that Messrs. K&R didn't intend it to become a hard-and-fast > convention, it served to hammer young minds into thinking that way. > Before C and its ilk, did *any* language's compiler store character > strings that way, aside from variable word- and record-length > machines like the 1401 and 1620? On the PDP-6 (and its successor, the PDP-10), there are 2 pseudo-ops to create a string of ASCII characters in memory, "ASCII" and "ASCIZ". The first creates a string containing only the characters between the delimiters (a pair of some character which does not occur in the string). The second adds an ASCII NUL to the end of the string. This predates K&R by a number of years. 0-terminated strings existed on the PDP-7, on which Unics originated, as well. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 16:40:36 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:40:36 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: ben Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 6:51 PM > Did the PDP-10 have a good C complier? No. Well, KCC (originally Kok Chen's C, written at SUMEX-AIM, then later improved by Ken Harrenstien at SRI) is probably as good as a K&R C can get on the architecture. I offended Ken once by commenting on the code quality, but we're still friends. The GCC port paid for by XKL was never completed, as far as I know. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 16:43:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:43:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B4841.8090902@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 16, 11 11:10:25 pm Message-ID: > > > start by undoing a lot of what they had previously been taught, such as > > that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I > > got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) > > Aarrghh!! Is that what they teach in American schools?? That is *evil*. I was perhaps unlucky in that i had a string of clueless maths and physics teachers.... I remember one related incident. The teacher had just proved exp(i*pi) + 1 = 0 . ARD : OK so I assume I can say exp(i*pi) = -1 Teacher : Of course ARD : Can I now take natural logs of both sides and say that ln(-1) = i*pi Theacher : No. There are no logs of negative numbers [A bit later I discovered the true version. exp(3*i*pi) = -1, exp(5*i*pi)=-1, etc too. And thus ln(-1) = (2n+1)*i*pi. But i*pi is taken as the principal value of ln(-1). To claim that 'logs of negative nmumbers do not exist' is plain wrong] > My mother once had a teacher who when his pupils were bad, told them to > behave, otherwise he would teach them wrong. In his opinion that was the > worst punishment he could think of. That would not work in the UK any more. In fact I think it would only work with students who want to learn, and such students are unlikely to mishehave in the first place (unless you count 'asking difficult but relevant questions; as misbehaving). -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 16:46:28 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:46:28 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: From: Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 7:20 PM ben wrote: >> Did the PDP-10 have a good C complier? > There were at least two C compilers, but I don't have any experience > with them so I can't comment on how good they were. KCC was good enough for a software engineer at XKL to port Perl 4 and GNU Emacs 18.58 (the reason for the Perl port was to run configure), and a whole bunch of Unix utilities. This was a selling point of the Toad-1. I've never seen anything other than toy programs written in the GCC port, because the libraries were never ported (to the best of my knowledge). > Another C trivia question: if you implement standard C on a PDP-10, a > 36-bit machine, what are the permissible sizes (in bits) for the char > type? Beaten to death already, but I wanted to mention that the internal size in KCC is 9 bits, with translation to 7-bit ASCII. GNU Emacs on the Toad-1 can read an 8-bit Unix or Windows text file (that is, one sent via FTP as binary), edit it, and save it out as 7-bit ASCII. (High-bit characters bite it.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 16:51:32 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:51:32 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9A4734.1070500@neurotica.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE> <4E99763A.7403.B02032@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9A01E0.7040106@neurotica.com> <4E99C94B.26503.1F498F4@cclist.sydex.com> <27C1C3B8-D096-42BA-9DB7-8BCD47CF6B2C@neurotica.com> <4E9A3887.3090905@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A3F4F.9020302@brouhaha.com> <4E9A4065.6020408@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E9A4734.1070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: Dave McGuire Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 7:54 PM On 10/15/2011 10:24 PM, ben wrote: >> I don't know about C, but I assume that 7 bit ascii is standard for >> everybody but IBM 360's. > And IBM 360s aren't the only systems that don't use ASCII. Also > 370s, 390s, and the z/Series right up to the current cutting-edge > systems. Of course, ben might be forgiven had he protested that those are all members of the same family from the same manufacturer. Similarly, he might protest Amdahl, Hitachi, and Fujitsu clones. A better example would be the SDS (later Xerox) Sigma 7, 9, and 6, which used 8-bit EBCDIC, even though they were completely incompatible to the 360 line WRT instruction set architecture. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 17 16:52:48 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old clocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > I was a proffesional clockmaker for a while. > We did mechanical, electric and electronic clock repair and > manufacture, till the site closed. > Dont forget you will need some form of master clock to drive the slave dial. > The drive is a current pulse set to a fixed current and all the dials > are in series. My plan is to tinker together a radio-controlled (aka atomic) master clock for this slave clock. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 17:16:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:16:44 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A4734.1070500@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4E9C46DC.24741.148E340@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2011 at 14:51, Rich Alderson wrote: > A better example would be the SDS (later Xerox) Sigma 7, 9, and 6, > which used 8-bit EBCDIC, even though they were completely incompatible > to the 360 line WRT instruction set architecture. Even the IBM Displaywriter used EBCDIC--and that was an 8086. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 17:18:05 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:18:05 -0700 Subject: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B1FC1.4050008@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A1826.21027.328A2EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9AF246.6000705@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9AB7E7.31961.8F72F6@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9B1FC1.4050008@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: From: Toby Thain Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:18 AM On 16/10/11 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What can be done with a really good macro-assembler is very eye- >> opening. > Indeed. You're probably familiar with the epic hacks that make, e.g. > MACRO-11 assemble for a completely different instruction set :) (A > gentleman named Tom Evans showed me this.) The 8080 simulator used by a certain trio[1] of programmers to write an interpreter for BASIC used PDP-10 macros that converted 8080 assembler code to PDP-10 LUUOs[2] with the 8-bit values for the 8080 in the high- order 8 bits. The simulator was written by the eldest of the three, based on one he had written a few years earlier for the 8008. I've seen the code. Hell, I've run the code. It's awe inspiring. [1] A lot of people forget who did the math routines... [2] Original PDP-6/10 operating systems use illegal instruction traps as system calls. These UnUsed Operations (later, Unimplemented User Operations) are divided into Monitor and Local UUOs. Instructions 040-077 are monitor calls, 001-037 use the same mechanism in user address space. Clever programmers use this as a fast subroutine call mechanism. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 17:21:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111017151932.E7903@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Being pedantic about it, it appears you were bit-banging serial I/O over > lines of the IBM printer interface, in which case I think it becomes a > serial port :-). and LATER IBM "printer interface"s did not require ANY modifiaction for use bi-directionally, in spite of that NOT being what IBM had "intended". From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 17:22:27 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:22:27 -0700 Subject: languages and patterns of thought - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B217D.9010006@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E9AB921.13926.943DC4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9B217D.9010006@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: From: Toby Thain Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:25 AM > Language constrains and moulds thought - as George Orwell also knew > and wrote about. As did Benjamin Lee Whorf, whose weak form of the hypothesis ("languages influences the way we can think") became a stronger claim in the hands of his mentor, Edward Sapir. It is the latter, more disprovable form which influenced Orwell, Vance, Delany, and Elgin. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ken at seefried.com Mon Oct 17 17:23:34 2011 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:23:34 -0400 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C, trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9CAAE6.4060901@seefried.com> One of the many potentially great things that died when DEC did was Modula-3, a language with huge promise (and one that didn't jump the shark with Wirth (see: Oberon)). There's a small community keeping it alive, and it's design is still influential (the creator of Python cites it as a primary influence). Perhaps it's time to give it another look. Whenever these sorts of "what should the language look like..." debates come up, as often as not I think "sounds like Modula-3". From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 17:30:30 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C46DC.24741.148E340@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9A4734.1070500@neurotica.com>, <4E9C46DC.24741.148E340@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111017152708.V7903@shell.lmi.net> > > which used 8-bit EBCDIC, even though they were completely incompatible > > to the 360 line WRT instruction set architecture. On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Even the IBM Displaywriter used EBCDIC--and that was an 8086. I encountered 5.25" 96TPI DSDD diskettes that were purported to be from a Seiko 8610 that were full of EBCDIC. But, that could always be the fault of the user who sent them to me, and they might have been something as simple as images from a terminal session? Note: I have NO IDEA what a Seiko 8610 is. I only dealt with the diskettes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 17:33:15 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:33:15 -0700 Subject: =?iso-8859-7?Q?RE:_Re:_Floating_point, __=F0_-_Re:_C_trivia_-_was_Re:_Denn?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?is_Ritchie_has_died?= In-Reply-To: <4E9B599B.4050300@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E9B370D.9020709@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9AE682.29089.145809D@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9B599B.4050300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: From: Toby Thain Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:24 PM > Right, it's much safer in the hands of "education reform" plutocrats :D ^^^^^^^^^ I don't think that word means what you seem to think it means. (What do the ruling wealthy have to do with reform, edcuational or otherwise?) Rhetorical question. Responses will be bitbucketed. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 17:37:48 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:37:48 -0700 Subject: UNIX and C history In-Reply-To: <4E9C89AC.4060404@vaxen.net> References: <4E9C89AC.4060404@vaxen.net> Message-ID: From: Doc Shipley Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 1:02 PM > The ongoing thread about the origins of C and UNIX have made me > wonder about something I was told years ago: > "UNIX was written as a host platform for C *development* and was not > originally envisioned as the production platform for applications > developed on it." > In other words, the intent was that developers would write code on > UNIX, then port it to an "application-oriented" OS for production. > Is there any truth to that? Well, since Unix (nee "Unics") originated before the C language, that would seem to put paid to the claim at all, as would the fact that it was an experimental operating system created to host an application that already existed. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 17:44:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <20111017153854.G7903@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > On IBM I prefer assembler. Are you talking about PC, or "REAL" computers? Many years ago, UC Berkeley, in evaluating which of our courses to accept for "articulation" (transfer credit plus accepting as prerequisites for their comparable courses) made a mistake and added my "Assembly Language for the PC" class, mistaking it for our "Mainframe Assembly Language" (360 family) class that had previously been simply called "IBM Assembly Language". THAT saved me reams of paperwork! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 17 17:48:21 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:48:21 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/17/11 9:33 AM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > > What would be neat (for me anyway) is a remote desktop client that I could > run on a Windows box that would allow me access to the native MacOS > desktop (and the XCode IDE from there)... > > g. Apple Remote desktop is VNC compatible, you can connect to a mac that you have enabled remote desktop on with a windows or unix or ... VNC client. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 17:49:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <27725754-1318869643-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1702742373-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <27725754-1318869643-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1702742373-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <20111017154618.B7903@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Vintage Coder wrote: > Heh thanks. The famous one finger salute! If convenient, could you try to provide a LITTLE bit of context of what message you are replying to. When you suggested a book of posts, I wasn't hard to figure out whose you were referring to (my ego's not out of control enough that I want "anything more important than me rounded up and shot"). But I don't see which post is the "one finger salute" From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 17 17:51:13 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:51:13 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/17/11 1:53 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 10/13/11 10:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> A lot of Ultrastor, DTC and Future Domain controllers use it. If >>> you have one of the DTK Mini-micro floppy controllers, you'll find it >>> there as well. >>> >> >> Here are all of the ISA controllers with a DP8473, extracted from an old >> controller list > > I'm reasonably sure the Compaticard IV will handle 128-byte sectors. ISTR > reading CP/M SD diskettes on mine. It should, IIRC it uses a WD xx93 series controller chip.... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 17 17:56:57 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:56:57 -0400 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9CB2B9.5050904@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/10/11 8:07 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >>> To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us >>> agree C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, >>> what does everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming >>> language? > >> What problems do you want to solve? > > My inability to identify a good general purpose UNIX programming language > that is compiled to native code Why is that important? Is JIT good enough? If not, why not? > and has good library support :-) > > I'd like to be able to write apps with a GUI and be able to issue SQL, just > general purpose stuff. > >>> to me nothing has the library, GUI support etc. like C and C++ do, but Java has more usable libraries than C++. But you already ruled out Java. >>> those languages seem suboptimal for most things. I write almost no code >>> on UNIX because I haven't ever found a traditional compiled language I >>> like > >> What languages DO you like? > > On IBM I prefer assembler. PL/I is a good (excellent) general purpose > language. Ada 95 is also a good general purpose langauge, ... > >>> that has enough support to make it usable. > >> Many languages have a lot of "support" these days (for example, one can >> no longer say that Scheme or CL or Haskell etc lack organised libraries). > > The examples you listed aren't general purpose programming languages by any > stretch Some would differ. Exactly what makes them "specialised"? (And if so, for what?) > and Scheme and CL are normally byte code compiled Many implementations either compile to machine code, or to C. > although if you > look hard enough you can find a native code version here or there, but > they all have various quirks. Any language that forces you into a paradigm > like "everything is tail recursion" or "every solution is a functional > program" is (far) too narrow for general use. Well, *your* general use, at least :D > I could abuse FORTRAN as it > has been for most of its life and force it outside the box, Too much pain. Gah. > but I don't > want to do that. C is a good model of the generic approach Too much pain. > in that you can > write procedural code or write OO code, basically it lets you do what you > want rather than forcing a paradigm on you. It forces an imperative paradigm with only the lightest pretence at abstraction; demands micromanagement and enbodies an execution model that doesn't map terribly well to real problems (for example, how do you express relations in C, let alone query them? Yet relations seem to be fairly useful for modelling common problems given their ubiquity in the data model of typical applications). > In that sense, to me it is > good. But it's too low level for my taste Quite. > and there are other things I > don't like about it. PL/I would be about perfect if it existed except for > the fact all the UNIX header files are in C. To me that is a problem I > don't know how to get around in all languages other than C/C++. > >> What support do you specifically need? > > GUI and SQL would be on top of the list. It's hard to find a Unix based language that doesn't cover these. > Not sure what else I would want > since I don't write code on UNIX yet. Hoping to though. > > I used to make a point to choose an appropriate (domain specific) language > for whatever task I had to solve. I wound up being good enough with many > languages and not an expert at any of them back then. There has been so > much language development over the years, I'm hoping there is some > magic bullet language (for me) that's general enough and high level enough You had me at "task before tool" because it increasingly seems to me that the challenge is mostly modelling. The typing-in part and getting syntax right is not a significant burden. > to be easily usable but with interfaces to anything a normal application > could want. Maybe that's not a reasonable goal on UNIX, I don't know enough > to say. I do know on IBM all of the application programming languages offer > more or less the same support for various items like database, UI etc. and > I am used to that model. There are a lot less choices over there so we > aren't as fussy. UNIX has so many choices, it makes it a little harder kind > of like at a restaurant that serves only one thing (pizza, chicken wings) > you don't have much deciding to do but if you go to a place with a phone > book for a menu all of a sudden life is complicated. > > I know there is a lot of UNIX knowledge on this list and wanted to bat the > idea around a little and hear what people are using for their main GOTO > language (no pun intended!) and why. > The trouble is you are going to get 20 different answers. However, most of them will differ mainly in syntactic decoration and not concepts. You've already rejected a bunch of conceptually more powerful tools above. With due respect, it seems you have painted yourself into a bit of a corner with arbitrary criteria that seem rooted in what was pragmatic in 1980. Oh, but wait, what about Smalltalk-80? Lovely language, and probably has the libraries you need. --Toby From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 18:06:17 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9B4841.8090902@otter.se> References: <4E9B4841.8090902@otter.se> Message-ID: <20111017155910.S7903@shell.lmi.net> > > start by undoing a lot of what they had previously been taught, such as > > that PI was EXACTLY 22/7 ! (half a century ago, in elementary school, I > > got into "big trouble" for telling a teacher that PI was NOT 22/7 !) On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Jonas Otter wrote: > Aarrghh!! Is that what they teach in American schools?? That is *evil*. Yes. Although, admittedly, that was half a century ago (PI does NOT change! (or DOES IT??)), and fifth grade of an elementary school. > My mother once had a teacher who when his pupils were bad, told them to > behave, otherwise he would teach them wrong. In his opinion that was the > worst punishment he could think of. That's one of the excuses that I used when my students would spot a misteak thatI had made! > I am absoutely sure that over here everybody is taught, and always has > been, the difference between natural, real, rational and irrational > numbers, and that pi is an irrational number which can be approximated > by 22/7. I got that on my own, some in 7th grade, and reasonably adequate in 11th grade. > The Swedish school system may have very serious problems, but hearing > this kind of thing makes me very, very grateful that my kids haven't > grown up in the USA. I wasn't given much choice. My parents told me to behave, and to learn how to handle situations where people with power over me were wrong. I guess that I learned PART of that - I have never defenestrated a college administrator! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 17 18:06:15 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:06:15 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <4E9543BA.2080708@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <201110172308.p9HN8EbC022980@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:17 PM 10/17/2011, Tony Duell wrote: >Being pedantic about it, it appears you were bit-banging serial I/O over >lines of the IBM printer interface, in which case I think it becomes a >serial port :-). Being pedantic about it, I'd say that twiddling more than one line at once changes it from serial to parallel. - John From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 17 18:09:02 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:09:02 -0400 Subject: NUL-terminated strings - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9CB58E.4020406@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/10/11 5:36 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 10:30 PM > >> One of the most evil programming conventions ever foisted on the >> computer community--null-terminated character strings. While I'm >> sure that Messrs. K&R didn't intend it to become a hard-and-fast >> convention, it served to hammer young minds into thinking that way. > >> Before C and its ilk, did *any* language's compiler store character >> strings that way, aside from variable word- and record-length >> machines like the 1401 and 1620? > > On the PDP-6 (and its successor, the PDP-10), there are 2 pseudo-ops > to create a string of ASCII characters in memory, "ASCII" and "ASCIZ". These directives also exist in MACRO-11 on the PDP-11, and MACRO-32 (VAX-11, Alpha and Itanium). --Toby > The first creates a string containing only the characters between the > delimiters (a pair of some character which does not occur in the > string). The second adds an ASCII NUL to the end of the string. > > This predates K&R by a number of years. 0-terminated strings existed > on the PDP-7, on which Unics originated, as well. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 17 18:10:53 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:10:53 -0400 Subject: 355/113 - Re: Floating point, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9CB5FD.6070701@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/10/11 4:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> I have never understood the windespread use of that approximation. >>>> 355/113 is more accurate and easier to remember >>> >>> I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 52163/16604 is >>> more accurate. > > It is, but only slightly. The abvsolute error is 2.6621e-7 as against > 2.6676e-7 for 355/113, And it's a lot harder to remember. > >> I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 86953/27678 is >> more accurate. (*) > > Sure, and there ae ever more accurate rational approximations. THing is, > 355/113 is very easy to remember and is accurate enough for a lot of > work. If I am calcuating the circumference of a part I am turning on the > lathe, I can't measure the diameter to anything like 6 significant > figures, so taking $\pi$ as 355/113 does not significantly degrade the > result. Heck, 355/113 got us to the moon! In fact it's so practical and sensible it should be legislated as the OFFICIAL approximation to ?. --T > > -tony > > From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:11:42 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:11:42 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't know if this has come up yet, but finally some press respect for dmr: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/oct/16/john-naughton-dennis-ritchie-unix?newsfeed=true Mike From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:11:57 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:11:57 -0500 Subject: help me get off this list Message-ID: anything would help... I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 17 18:16:05 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:16:05 -0400 Subject: UNIX and C history In-Reply-To: <4E9C89AC.4060404@vaxen.net> References: <4E9C89AC.4060404@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4E9CB735.5000106@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/10/11 4:01 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > The ongoing thread about the origins of C and UNIX have made me wonder > about something I was told years ago: > > "UNIX was written as a host platform for C *development* and was not > originally envisioned as the production platform for applications > developed on it." > > In other words, the intent was that developers would write code on UNIX, > then port it to an "application-oriented" OS for production. > > Is there any truth to that? Early on, Unix was justified to the boss as a monetiseable typesetting/documentation prep system, to which considerable effort was devoted, and of course we deal with the legacy of that every time we use 'man'... The late Dennis Ritchie gave the story in his well known paper on Unix history. That paper should shed light on your question: http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/hist.html The papers in the BSTJ Unix edition, and the rich bundled toolset, make it pretty clear (imho) that Unix was also meant to support program development. --Toby > > > Doc > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 17 18:18:24 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:18:24 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <8981f94eb9ee2ffc01e39f84afd223da@cs.ubc.ca> References: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 17, 11 10:01:35 am", <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> <4E9C0930.28475.57FD35@cclist.sydex.com> <8981f94eb9ee2ffc01e39f84afd223da@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E9CB7C0.1030104@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/10/11 3:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2011 Oct 17, at 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Would it be a fair statement to say that had it not been for Unix and >> AT&T's (initial) "anyone can get a license as we're not in the >> software business" approach that "C" today would largely be a >> language relegated to the programming backwater? >> >> And that "we're not in the software business" aspect was stipulated >> by law. So regulation is largely responsible for the popularity of >> Unix and C? >> >> In other words, had Unix been a closed proprietary OS, would we even >> be talking about C? Or would it be sort of a vintage curiosity like >> BCPL or B? > > At the time (late-60s/70s), there was an interest in having a language > "just above assembler" for things like OS-development - BLISS? > something that > would provide for symbols, expressions, and standard control flow (i.e. > be readable), be independant of machine instructions (even if not an > abstraction completely independant of the hardware), but still be > directly translateable to machine code and leave the programmer with a > sense of what would happen on the hardware. > > I would suggest that if not C, another C-like, CPL/BCPL/B descendant > would have been developed to fill that interest. (I've mentioned it here > before, I worked with such a language ("Z") in the late-70s era. Z was > also a descendant of BCPL/B (hence a sibling of C), with byte addressing > added and some other improvements.) > > For those not fond of C, one might say things went awry when C was > picked up and became commonplace for 'higher-level' general-purpose > programming in the 80s. It made sense at the time. C++ is the worse perversion. :) > > But what were the choices at the time?: assembler (tedious, not > portable), BASIC (gross), Algol (that might be a candidate), PL/I (big, > limited availability), Yet it was good enough for the system code of Multics... > Pascal (limited, IMO), Ada (I remember looking > forward to Ada in the time it was being developed, but it too was big > and took on committee problems, and was perhaps too late to become a > major presence). In a time of limited memory and speed, C was flexible > and targetable to the microprocs of the 80's. > > In the 90s, "improved C" languages became available (splitting into two > tracks - compiled/interpreted). Not all of them were an improvement > however, or they were so improved (e.g. C++) that people just stuck with > C for many purposes. ...Sadly. The 1980s were a long time ago, it's probably time we reassessed the tradeoffs. --T > > The whole history is also a comment on independant, grass-roots > development and evolution versus standards-committee bloat and mandate. > > I also wonder how much of the popularity of C and associated languages > is just "{}" vs. "begin/end". I personally can't stand begin-end > languages just because all those begin-ends present so much visual > clutter in the program text (although I do have a fondness for Algol). > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 18:23:23 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?iso-8859-7?Q?RE:_Re:_Floating_point, __=F0_-_Re:_C_trivia_-_was_Re:_Denn?= =?iso-8859-7?Q?is_Ritchie_has_died?= In-Reply-To: References: , <4E9B370D.9020709@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9AE682.29089.145809D@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9B599B.4050300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111017162236.N7903@shell.lmi.net> > > Right, it's much safer in the hands of "education reform" plutocrats :D > ^^^^^^^^^ On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > I don't think that word means what you seem to think it means. (What do > the ruling wealthy have to do with reform, edcuational or otherwise?) Once a planet, ALWAYS a planet! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 17 18:24:53 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floating point, In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 17, 11 09:55:47 pm" Message-ID: <201110172324.p9HNOr7W013860@floodgap.com> > > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 86953/27678 is > > more accurate. (*) > > Sure, and there ae ever more accurate rational approximations. You do realize I was being facetious, right? :) I like 355/113 myself. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FOOLS! I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL! ASK ME HOW! -- "Girl Genius" 8/29/07 -------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 18:25:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111017162447.Y7903@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm reasonably sure the Compaticard IV will handle 128-byte sectors. ISTR > > reading CP/M SD diskettes on mine. On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > It should, IIRC it uses a WD xx93 series controller chip.... NOT THE ONE THAT I HAD. It was a 765 variant. From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:27:10 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:27:10 -0500 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: me too. thanks. On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > anything would help... > > I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 18:29:50 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Randy Dawson wrote: > anything would help... > I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day I would much rather read Tony and Chuck than do what I am supposed to be doing! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 18:30:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:30:59 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E9C5843.7459.18CE009@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2011 at 15:51, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > It should, IIRC it uses a WD xx93 series controller chip.... No--perhaps you're confusing it with another card. The Compaticard I and II use a NEC ?PD765A chip (the difference being 2- vs. 4-drive support). Early versions of th CC IV used Intel 82077 controllers; subsequent ones used pin-compatible NS PC8477 controllers. None used a WD chip. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:41:21 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:41:21 -0400 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > anything would help... > > I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day Filters, filters, filters. There are ten or so people I filter out, and it cuts traffic (and noise) by 75 percent. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 18:49:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:49:28 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111017152708.V7903@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <4E9C46DC.24741.148E340@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111017152708.V7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9C5C98.24818.19DCAAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2011 at 15:30, Fred Cisin wrote: > I encountered 5.25" 96TPI DSDD diskettes that were purported to be > from a Seiko 8610 that were full of EBCDIC. But, that could always be > the fault of the user who sent them to me, and they might have been > something as simple as images from a terminal session? > > Note: I have NO IDEA what a Seiko 8610 is. I only dealt with the > diskettes. The 8600 (the 8610 was the CPU box; the 8620 was the terminal) appear to be pretty much 8086 multiuser boxes running the usual suspects, although I've never heard of UNIDOL. http://www.1000bit.it/scheda.asp?id=787 I do have a sample disk from the 8600; it is indeed 96 tpi DSDD (80*2*16*256) and it's ASCII. So the EBCDIC stuff must have originated somewhere else. I'm not saying that CP/M-86 couldn't be made to work in EBCDIC, but it might be a little challenging, given CP/M's use of bit 7 in disk directory file names. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:57:40 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:57:40 -0500 Subject: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110162005.p9GK5T8Z012853@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> References: <201110162005.p9GK5T8Z012853@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9CC0F4.8000100@gmail.com> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us agree > C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, what does > everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming language? Seems > to me nothing has the library, GUI support etc. like C and C++ do, but > those languages seem suboptimal for most things. I write almost no code on > UNIX because I haven't ever found a traditional compiled language I like > that has enough support to make it usable. I seem to split my coding time evenly between C, Java and - shock, horror - good ol' shell scripts, depending on requirements. I don't think C's ever automatically the wrong choice for anything - it just takes discipline to use it well. What I'm yet to find is anything with good GUI support, though - by 'good' I mean 'quick to implement', not necessarily feature-rich. Every time I need a GUI for something I seem to spend a ridiculous amount of time having to learn how to throw a few buttons and whatnot up on the screen (for most things I can use an ASCII-based UI, thankfully, but there are some times when a few graphical widgets would be handy) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 19:01:08 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9C5843.7459.18CE009@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E9C5843.7459.18CE009@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111017165727.L7903@shell.lmi.net> > > It should, IIRC it uses a WD xx93 series controller chip.... On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > No--perhaps you're confusing it with another card. The Compaticard I > and II use a NEC ?PD765A chip (the difference being 2- vs. 4-drive > support). Early versions of th CC IV used Intel 82077 controllers; > subsequent ones used pin-compatible NS PC8477 controllers. None used > a WD chip. It should be reiterated that the 82077 is, for all practical purposes, a 765. Using a WD1793, or variant thereof, would require a complete rewrite of Int13h. AFAIK, nobody ever got around to doing that, so I kept a TRS80-3 around just for the WD REAL "track read" command. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vrs at msn.com Mon Oct 17 19:09:55 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:09:55 -0700 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Brian Lanning; Monday, October 17, 2011 4:27 PM > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: >> >> anything would help... >> >> I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day >> >> me too. thanks. Is this page: http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html not working for you guys? There's a box for that at the bottom of the grey area on the right. Vince From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 19:06:30 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:06:30 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot Message-ID: Hello all, I recall a while back a thread on dealing with screen rot on ADM-3a terminals - surprising to me, because I have several of them and have had no such issue. But I do have nasty looking spots on a HP 9845A screen. Does anyone have specific experience with addressing this problem on this machine? Just to be clear, it looks like round mold colonies around the edges of the screen. It's likely that there's an anti-glare coating and something colonized underneath it. Again, I'm looking for specific details regarding this machine or another machine of the era using the same screen technology, and how you eliminated the colonies. :-) Thanks -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 17 19:21:00 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:21:00 -0700 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Slyngstad > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 5:10 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: help me get off this list > > From: Brian Lanning; Monday, October 17, 2011 4:27 PM > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Randy Dawson > wrote: > >> > >> anything would help... > >> > >> I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day > >> > >> me too. thanks. > > Is this page: > http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html > > not working for you guys? There's a box for that at the bottom of the grey > area on the right. > But Vince, that doesn't let you make a snarky political statement! :-) -- Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 17 19:23:12 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:23:12 -0700 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9CC6F0.9040603@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/11 10:35 PM, Jason T wrote: > The machine appears to be an Arete' 1200, although badged as a Sperry > on the front. docs and system tapes are up now on bitsavers under bits/Arete_Arix and pdf/arete_arix there was quite a bit more information on the later S90 machines than the A1000, though. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 17 19:33:46 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:33:46 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9CC96A.8090501@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/11 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: > Hello all, > > Does anyone have specific experience with addressing this problem on this machine? The procedure is removal of the RTV between the safety glass and CRT separating the two by cutting through the RTV with a hot wire, then reattachment at the corners. There are some examples on the web. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 17 19:58:30 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:58:30 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4E9CC96A.8090501@bitsavers.org> References: <4E9CC96A.8090501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E9CCF36.2020009@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/11 5:33 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/17/11 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> Does anyone have specific experience with addressing this problem on this machine? > > The procedure is removal of the RTV between the safety glass and CRT separating the two by > cutting through the RTV with a hot wire, then reattachment at the corners. > > There are some examples on the web. > http://www.nekochan.net/weblog/archives/2008/10/adm-3a-screen-r.html there was a discussion of this on cctalk in 2009 http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2009-February/063776.html From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 17 20:09:35 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:09:35 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <20111017162447.Y7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10/17/11 4:25 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: >>> I'm reasonably sure the Compaticard IV will handle 128-byte sectors. ISTR >>> reading CP/M SD diskettes on mine. > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> It should, IIRC it uses a WD xx93 series controller chip.... > > NOT THE ONE THAT I HAD. > > It was a 765 variant. Hmmm, I wonder if I am thinking of an earlier version :( From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 20:10:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:10:47 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <20111017165727.L7903@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E9C5843.7459.18CE009@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111017165727.L7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E9C6FA7.5037.1E83B2E@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2011 at 17:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > Using a WD1793, or variant thereof, would require a complete rewrite > of Int13h. AFAIK, nobody ever got around to doing that, so I kept a > TRS80-3 around just for the WD REAL "track read" command. I went the easy way and just wired up a WD1772 on an ISA prototype board. It takes very little additonal circuitry as data separator, etc. are built onto the chip. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 17 20:11:09 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:11:09 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9C5843.7459.18CE009@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/11 4:30 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 17 Oct 2011 at 15:51, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> It should, IIRC it uses a WD xx93 series controller chip.... > > No--perhaps you're confusing it with another card. The Compaticard I > and II use a NEC ?PD765A chip (the difference being 2- vs. 4-drive > support). Early versions of th CC IV used Intel 82077 controllers; > subsequent ones used pin-compatible NS PC8477 controllers. None used > a WD chip. > > --Chuck Thanks, I don't claim my memory is always correct :) I do know I had a WD xx93 based card in a pc at one point with software drivers to add 4 additional drives... But I have also had compaticard II and IV at various times... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 20:22:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111017182046.W7903@shell.lmi.net> > >>> I'm reasonably sure the Compaticard IV will handle 128-byte sectors. ISTR > >>> reading CP/M SD diskettes on mine. > >> It should, IIRC it uses a WD xx93 series controller chip.... > > NOT THE ONE THAT I HAD. > > It was a 765 variant. On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Hmmm, I wonder if I am thinking of an earlier version :( If you ever find one, let us know! I've never been able to find a disk controller for PC that wasn't a 765 variant. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 20:24:17 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9C6FA7.5037.1E83B2E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E9C5843.7459.18CE009@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111017165727.L7903@shell.lmi.net> <4E9C6FA7.5037.1E83B2E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111017182311.L7903@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I went the easy way and just wired up a WD1772 on an ISA prototype > board. It takes very little additonal circuitry as data separator, > etc. are built onto the chip. Is it too late to start marketing accessory boards for 5150? THAT plus a complete rewrite of Int13h, . . . From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 20:32:34 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:32:34 -0500 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C, trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9CAAE6.4060901@seefried.com> References: <4E9CAAE6.4060901@seefried.com> Message-ID: <4E9CD732.1010803@gmail.com> KJ Seefried wrote: > One of the many potentially great things that died when DEC did was > Modula-3, a language with huge promise There's quite a tie-in with Olivetti and Acorn, too (and Acorn were quite big on using Modula-2 and 2+ for OS development at one point in time) cheers Jules From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 21:00:54 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:00:54 -0500 Subject: old clocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: when i was in jr high all the clocks said IBM on them On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:52 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > > I was a proffesional clockmaker for a while. >> We did mechanical, electric and electronic clock repair and >> manufacture, till the site closed. >> Dont forget you will need some form of master clock to drive the slave >> dial. >> The drive is a current pulse set to a fixed current and all the dials >> are in series. >> > > My plan is to tinker together a radio-controlled (aka atomic) master clock > for this slave clock. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 21:23:44 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:23:44 -0500 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini In-Reply-To: <4E9CC6F0.9040603@bitsavers.org> References: <4E9CC6F0.9040603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks for the uploads, Al. I'll check them out. Interesting reading re: BIX, too. Anyone know any other shops that used these machines? -- Jht On 10/17/11, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/13/11 10:35 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> The machine appears to be an Arete' 1200, although badged as a Sperry >> on the front. > > docs and system tapes are up now on bitsavers under bits/Arete_Arix and > pdf/arete_arix > > there was quite a bit more information on the later S90 machines than the > A1000, though. > > -- Sent from my mobile device silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 23:03:56 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:03:56 -0500 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Is this page: > http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html > > not working for you guys? ?There's a box for that at the bottom of the grey > area on the right. Hi Vince. Thanks for the link I didn't know about. In the mean time, perhaps this would help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_syndrome From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 17 23:06:23 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C, trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9CD732.1010803@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Oct 17, 11 08:32:34 pm" Message-ID: <201110180406.p9I46NSa009790@floodgap.com> > > One of the many potentially great things that died when DEC did was > > Modula-3, a language with huge promise > > There's quite a tie-in with Olivetti and Acorn, too (and Acorn were quite > big on using Modula-2 and 2+ for OS development at one point in time) I actually did write an app in Modula-2 once. http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/mac/ahl/ http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/mac/ahl/imp.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The Living Daylights" ----------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 01:08:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 02:08:25 -0400 Subject: Let's talk NeXT - Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <4E9C9129.1040602@gmail.com> References: <4E934FD5.8060300@neurotica.com> <4E93780A.1060906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9387A7.9020005@neurotica.com> <4E939326.2080308@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9A740C.1010608@neurotica.com> <20111016125824.f499c824.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E9C5484.7090504@neurotica.com> <4E9C9129.1040602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> I can see this coming full-circle. For awhile there, the trend was to dump EVERYTHING on the single slow-as-molasses-anyway x86 processor in the box; clueless designers who couldn't see the big picture did things like putting printer handling (all rasterization, etc) and modem DSP in the host processor. Remember "winprinters" and "winmodems"? Now we're "inventing" distributed processing again. It's about time. ;) > > Was that really 'clueless'? I always understood it to be a cost thing; a hardware designer could implement a modem or printer for far less $$$ if all the processing work was done by the host system's CPU - but they could still sell it as a modem or printer indistinguishable on the packaging from a better product (which did have its own local processing), so long as their software would run under the host machine's OS. > > I think they saw the big picture all too clearly, and saw a way of maximizing returns by peddling junk that the public would happily buy anyway (this goes back to our discussion about how people often seem to *expect* computers to be buggy and sometimes slow down for no apparent reason. They wouldn't necessarily associate it with the modem or printer, and even if they did it'd be OK because "that's just the way computers are"). Yes, perhaps you're right, they were being sleazy rather than clueless. That's just as depressing. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 18 01:26:33 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 02:26:33 -0400 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9B452F.4030505@telegraphics.com.au> <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <20111018062633.GA24032@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great vintagecoder at aol.com once stated: > > I know there is a lot of UNIX knowledge on this list and wanted to bat the > idea around a little and hear what people are using for their main GOTO > language (no pun intended!) and why. There's always LuaJIT. It's a separate project from Lua, but follows the current Lua implementation. It compiles Lua to native x86 code (and I think there's work being done for PPC as well). It also has, from what I understand, an incredible FFI (foreign function interface) so you can use any existing C library (not sure about C++ though) natively. I've only played around a bit with LuaJIT (can't use it at work since we use SPARC, and LuaJIT doesn't support that architecture, but we do use Lua at work) and from what I've seen, it is *very* impressive. Lua itself it one of the fastest interpreted langauges going and LuaJIT brings it to C speed (or close enough). I use C and Lua for my main GOTO langauges these days (both for personal and work related projects). It's a nice little language. -spc (And Lua has been around since the early 90s, so it's not like it's anything new 8-) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 18 04:17:40 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:17:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <1318449244.74676.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Subject: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Steve Jobs -2011 Finally someone who declares this "Steve Jobs"-thread as SPAM! ;-) Christian From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 04:20:43 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:20:43 +0000 Subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Steve Jobs -2011 Message-ID: <1409008521-1318929638-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1180219959-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Yeah no joke. I killfiled anything with Steve Jobs in the subject line but this one made it to my phone, where I can't filter. But I do think it may mean something that Dennis Ritchie only died after "the threat" was gone. ------Original Message------ From: Christian Corti Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Steve Jobs -2011 Sent: 18 Oct 2011 09:17 On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Subject: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Steve Jobs -2011 Finally someone who declares this "Steve Jobs"-thread as SPAM! ;-) Christian From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Oct 18 04:28:25 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:28:25 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 09:46:41PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > "Get a better calculator/computer/floating point co-processor" > > "Just use 'double precision'" > Ah yes... Akin to the 'solution' of throwing ever faster processors at a > problem in the hope it'll go away'... Of course neither actually solves > the underlying problem. Yes it does. The underlying problem is almost never "achieve perfection" but is "get a result accurate enough to let me build this bridge and have it not fall down" or "make the code work fast enough". The tricky bit is that once you've got a good enough approximation for, eg, sqrt(2), which you then use, to bear in mind that the result is an approximation, and that if you then perform some other operation with that result and with another approximation that the errors grow, and grow, and grow, and then DOOM. I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. It would be nice to be able to automate away the problem of "measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe". -- David Cantrell | semi-evolved ape-thing You can't spell AWESOME without ME! From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Oct 18 05:06:01 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:06:01 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net> <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20111018120601.atyeervohjrc40gs@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von David Cantrell : > I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose > programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which > would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values > together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a > required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with > exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. It would be nice to > be able to automate away the problem of "measure with a micrometer, mark > with chalk, cut with an axe". Ever heard of pascal-xsc? From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 06:43:12 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:43:12 +0000 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> ray at arachelian.com wrote >On 10/17/2011 04:04 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> >> A good assembler is perfectly situated for writing an OS and not at all >> tedious. But a lot depends on the architecture as well as the assembler. > > So, um, what do you do when you want to port your assembly only OS to > x86_64, PPC, SPARC, MIPS, ARM from your original platform? (Re)Write in > C? :-D I'll give you an example about the OS I work with, z/OS. It started out in 1964 (arguably earlier) was written in assembler, and was designed from the beginning to run on one architecture. 47 years later IBM has still not shown any interest in porting it. The OS and hardware are tightly coupled, that's one of the main ways the system provides so much throughput. Things changed recently but IBM was historically a hardware company. They happen to write fantastic software, but they write it to sell hardware. When people wanted to port the IBM OS family to x86 they wrote Hercules to emulate the hardware. The OS doesn't make sense on anything but System/360, 370, 390, Z, etc. It was easier to port the hardware than the software. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 06:59:06 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:59:06 +0000 Subject: programming languages and compilers (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) References: <4E9C34B3.31493.101F1EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110181159.p9IBxKCY022984@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 17 Oct 2011 at 13:03, Eric Smith wrote: > >Incorrect. Those were open source until the great unbundling of June > >23, 1969. In fact, it went beyond just "open source"; they were in > >the public domain, along with the operating systems they ran on (e.g., > >OS/360 21.8, DOS/360 and TOS/360 26.2, MVS 3.8, TSS/370 3.0). > There was a somewhat different attitude back before the days of > "commodity CPUs". If you, as a customer, had an interest in modifying or > adapting any system code, you could, with a little wrangling perhaps, get > a copy of the source code. Site analysts routinely suggested corrective > fixes to code. I wasn't involved in the years we're talking about, 1964-1969 but from what I have read and heard, what I said earlier was correct. None of the IBM compilers (and I'll add OS to the list) were ever open source. Now to clarify, the "unbundling" in 1969 was to be able to charge separate line items for software. I don't think anybody is silly enough to say when you paid a million bucks for a machine and they "threw in" the OS and compilers you actually got that for free, it was just a package deal "at no additional charge." That is not the same as free. I don't believe you had a snowball's chance in hell of getting the code from IBM if you didn't shell out for their hardware and sign licensing agreements. Heck, we had microcode listings on trolleys for the SEs in most of the shops I worked for in the early days, but nobody considered that stuff in the machine room open source either. It was just what you got to be able to have your system maintained. The operating systems Eric mentioned are in the public domain, but as far as what I have been told, it is not because IBM didn't assert copyright or intentionally placed them in the public domain, but because of U.S. copyright law prior to 1980. In fact MVS 3.8 is in the public domain and it was released around 1974, much after the 1969 unbundling. I think there is proof to this view because there are Y manuals (which would later be changed to LY for "licensed materials") that are "restricted distribution" even in the late 1960s. That shows IBM did make efforts to keep material (specifically program logic manuals) out of public distribution and only sent them to licensed customers. I don't think any wrangling was required to get source until much later. For years including MVS 3.8 you got almost all the source just to be able to do a sysgen. I was never a sysprog and never did a sysgen until a few years ago, so I have no idea why they shipped it that way. But they did, and everybody who bought a system got the OS to be able to do sysgens and bring up their own system. That doesn't mean the OS and tools were open source, I'm near certain if you didn't buy a system and sign a license agreement you had no legal way to get the OS or compilers. If not, it makes no sense to restrict manuals and make a series of manuals only for licensed customers when the source code is freely available. I have never heard that the source was available without a license which in turn requires a hardware purchase, I don't consider that open source. I worked for IBM business partners for many years and we had access to source long after they went OCO so I don't know what regular customer sites had access to. If there are any old sysprogs on the list maybe they will remember when IBM went OCO. Up until the VM version of IBMLink was taken offline a couple of years ago we could still see some source code. It dwindled every year but there was still some stuff available. > The system code was a necessary evil to sell the hardware. 100% correct > And the picture was often mutual--customers contributed whole products > that became part of the standard line. In at least one case that I'm > familiar with, the whole operating system for a machine was written by a > customer. That's true of CICS and IMS as well, both made billions of dollars over the years for IBM. Those were called FDP (Field Developed Products) they were written by customers, and picked up (somehow) by IBM. > It was a very good idea to have the capability to run competitor's > customer source code without too much tweaking, as well as being able to > read their tapes. So good in fact that Fujitsu settled out of court by paying IBM 830 million dollars for ripping off MVS and VSE in the 1990s. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 07:02:43 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:02:43 +0000 Subject: help me get off this list References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> From: Fred Cisin > >On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Randy Dawson wrote: > >anything would help... > >I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day > > I would much rather read Tony and Chuck than do what I am supposed to be doing! And I would much rather read emails by you and Tony and Chuck and Dave McGuire. Funny, this list is about classic computing but some people don't appreciate the old timers who are classics. For me having you guys (ok, Dave is a youngin') around is the best part of this list. There is an important period in computing before I got started in the late 1970s that I don't know enough about, and I enjoy hearing comments from the guys who were there. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 07:05:54 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:05:54 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <20111017153854.G7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201110181205.p9IC5ws9027786@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> From: Fred Cisin >>On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> On IBM I prefer assembler. > >Are you talking about PC, or "REAL" computers? Hah, Fred, I thought it was just me. Glad somebody else had the courage to ask that question. On this list! Yeah, I'm talking about real computers, stuff that needs water cooling, three phase, raised floor, a hundred tons of A/C and a bunch of guys to keep it going. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 07:11:01 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:11:01 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <20111017154618.B7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201110181211.p9ICB55E022939@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> From: Fred Cisin >>On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Vintage Coder wrote: >> Heh thanks. The famous one finger salute! > > If convenient, could you try to provide a LITTLE bit of context of what > message you are replying to. Sorry about that. I thought an In-Reply-To or References header and keeping the same subject line should be enough to thread. Seems to work over here. I am used to trimming heavily but I will try to keep some attribution. I'm constructing replies manually because my mail to news gateway posts all my mailing lists on my news server. If I want to reply I have to do it the hard way. I'll look into it. > When you suggested a book of posts, I wasn't hard to figure out whose you > were referring to (my ego's not out of control enough that I want > "anything more important than me rounded up and shot"). I can't remember if that was for you or Chuck, but as far as I am concerned it applies to both of you. > But I don't see which post is the "one finger salute" It was in response to Gene B's comment after I teased him about his long sig. He said anybody who didn't like it could "reference figure One" From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 07:13:41 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:13:41 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <20111018062633.GA24032@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201110181213.p9ICDjs7003969@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> From: Sean Conner > I've only played around a bit with LuaJIT (can't use it at work since we > use SPARC, and LuaJIT doesn't support that architecture, but we do use > Lua at work) and from what I've seen, it is *very* impressive. Lua > itself it one of the fastest interpreted langauges going and LuaJIT > brings it to C speed (or close enough). Thanks. Lack of SPARC support is a deal killer for me. I hate Intel and I'm trying to get away from it, I plan to do any development as much as possible on SPARC. > -spc (And Lua has been around since the early 90s, so it's not like it's > anything new 8-) Early 90s isn't new? Kids these days! :-) From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 07:28:17 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:28:17 +0000 Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <4E9CB2B9.5050904@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110181228.p9ICSLCh020487@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> From: Toby Thain >> Vintage Coder said: >> My inability to identify a good general purpose UNIX programming language >> that is compiled to native code > >Why is that important? Is JIT good enough? If not, why not? It's important because I like stuff to be small and run fast and to be able to understand it. I'm an assembler programmer, and I prefer to stay close to the machine. I don't use HLL except for test drivers but since I can get an assembler listing and see exactly what the compiler is doing, I get a warm fuzzy I don't get with JIT or other byte code stuff. I don't like JIT for many reasons, for one because it's often harder to protect your source code. I realize on UNIX that shouldn't be an issue but in my world it is. Hard to teach old dogs new tricks... > Java has more usable libraries than C++. But you already ruled out Java. There's a lot to like about it, obviously, so many libraries and so much convenience feature. But still it's sort of the opposite of what I've always done, I don't know if I could jump the gap. >> GUI and SQL would be on top of the list. >It's hard to find a Unix based language that doesn't cover these. Oh, good! > You had me at "task before tool" because it increasingly seems to me that > the challenge is mostly modelling. The typing-in part and getting syntax > right is not a significant burden. Yes, I think you said that very well. Although I have found there is something appealing to me about older languages (probably simplicity and fixed format code and compactness of implementation) that is missing in newer languages. > The trouble is you are going to get 20 different answers. However, most > of them will differ mainly in syntactic decoration and not concepts. > You've already rejected a bunch of conceptually more powerful tools > above. Yeah I realize that, but in a way that's sort of what I wanted (not rejecting more powerful tools, the 20 answers part!). As I said I would like to bat around the idea and hear what people like and why they like it. I don't have enough (any) practical experience with most of the UNIX languages to know which ones I would like and I haven't had any luck finding one I do like. So far Ada 95 has been the closest for me, but the awful library mess is a big inhibitor. > With due respect, it seems you have painted yourself into a bit of a > corner with arbitrary criteria that seem rooted in what was pragmatic in > 1980. Thanks for your restraint. I know this often becomes a holy war topic and I have no intention of that, I'm too far outside to be interested in that. I agree with your assessment, I probably am stuck in the 1980s and from coding for so long on one platform that I happen to really love for many reasons, it's hard to go to a new platform. I suppose I have been trying to apply my view of goodness on my platform to UNIX and that's obviously not the "when in Rome" approach I probably *should* be taking. This could take awhile. Don't wait up for me :-) From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 07:46:14 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:46:14 +0000 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <201110181246.p9ICkI9b020283@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com> From: David Cantrell > I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose > programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which > would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values > together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a > required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with > exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. It would be nice to > be able to automate away the problem of "measure with a micrometer, mark > with chalk, cut with an axe". I am almost certain Ada 95 provides this. You can certainly specify the number of digits of precison and create your own type or subtype and I believe the runtime automatically protects you from loss of precision. The only thing is because of the rigid typing it's hard to move data around unless everything is the same type. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 18 07:47:51 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:47:51 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net> <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E9D7577.5040601@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/10/11 5:28 AM, David Cantrell wrote: > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 09:46:41PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >>> "Get a better calculator/computer/floating point co-processor" >>> "Just use 'double precision'" >> Ah yes... Akin to the 'solution' of throwing ever faster processors at a >> problem in the hope it'll go away'... Of course neither actually solves >> the underlying problem. > > Yes it does. The underlying problem is almost never "achieve > perfection" but is "get a result accurate enough to let me build this > bridge and have it not fall down" or "make the code work fast enough". > > The tricky bit is that once you've got a good enough approximation for, > eg, sqrt(2), which you then use, to bear in mind that the result is an > approximation, and that if you then perform some other operation with > that result and with another approximation that the errors grow, and > grow, and grow, and then DOOM. > > I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose > programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which > would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values > together - ie, decreasing the precision - Significance arithmetic. Steve Richfield* couldn't get the IEEE-754 reboot committee to consider it, but one can find his interesting Usenet posts on the topic. --T * - iirc, among other things, he did a lot of work on CDC Fortran. > and would let you specify a > required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with > exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. It would be nice to > be able to automate away the problem of "measure with a micrometer, mark > with chalk, cut with an axe". > From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 07:48:49 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:48:49 +0000 Subject: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <4E9CC0F4.8000100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201110181248.p9ICmrBj020302@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> From: Jules Richardson >>vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us >> agree C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, >> what does everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming >> language? Seems to me nothing has the library, GUI support etc. like C >> and C++ do, but > those languages seem suboptimal for most things. I >> write almost no code on UNIX because I haven't ever found a traditional >> compiled language I like that has enough support to make it usable. > I seem to split my coding time evenly between C, Java and - shock, horror > - good ol' shell scripts, depending on requirements. I don't think C's > ever automatically the wrong choice for anything - it just takes > discipline to use it well. Thanks. Shell scripts are always useful, no question about it. > What I'm yet to find is anything with good GUI support, though - by > 'good' I mean 'quick to implement', not necessarily feature-rich. Every > time I need a GUI for something I seem to spend a ridiculous amount of > time having to learn how to throw a few buttons and whatnot up on the > screen (for most things I can use an ASCII-based UI, thankfully, but > there are some times when a few graphical widgets would be handy) I am looking at TCL. It misses on some of my important criteria but it seems to support GUI outstandingly. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 18 07:52:52 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 05:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111018062633.GA24032@brevard.conman.org> from Sean Conner at "Oct 18, 11 02:26:33 am" Message-ID: <201110181252.p9ICqqE0009900@floodgap.com> > I've only played around a bit with LuaJIT (can't use it at work since we > use SPARC, and LuaJIT doesn't support that architecture, but we do use Lua > at work) and from what I've seen, it is *very* impressive. Lua itself it > one of the fastest interpreted langauges going and LuaJIT brings it to C > speed (or close enough). I do like Lua. I was introduced to it on, of all things, PalmOS -- Plua was one of the best ways to quickly build Palm apps, and it could be "cross compiled" (I maintained the OS X port of the Plua cross-builder). I wish more JITs supported POWER/PowerPC, though. > I use C and Lua for my main GOTO langauges these days (both for personal > and work related projects). It's a nice little language. Most of my Unix work is in Perl nowadays, and most of my personal projects are also written in it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you live in a country run by committee, be on the committee. -- G. Summer From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 18 08:10:56 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:10:56 -0400 Subject: Can haz macros? - Re: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia In-Reply-To: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> References: <201110171207.p9HC7Oh1016067@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9D7AE0.8080607@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/10/11 8:07 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >>... >> Many languages have a lot of "support" these days (for example, one can >> no longer say that Scheme or CL or Haskell etc lack organised libraries). > > The examples you listed aren't general purpose programming languages by any > stretch and Scheme and CL are normally byte code compiled although if you > look hard enough you can find a native code version here or there, but > they all have various quirks. Any language that forces you into a paradigm > like "everything is tail recursion" or "every solution is a functional > program" is (far) too narrow for general use. A problem with this characterisation is that it is dangerously misleading. Try this with C, PHP, Java, Python, Pascal, BASIC, C#, D, E, F, G, or $YOUR_FAVOURITE_LANGUAGE: ; Oh gosh, this language lacks something that I liek. What do??? (define-syntax for (syntax-rules () ;; iterate over list elements, binding given var to each element ((_ (var list-arg) . body) (let for-iter ((lst list-arg)) (unless (null? lst) (let ((var (car lst))) . body) (for-iter (cdr lst))))) ;; C-style loop with initialisation, condition, & increment clauses ((_ ((var init) cnd step) . body) (letrec ((var init) (for-iter (lambda () (when cnd (begin . body) step (for-iter))))) (for-iter))))) ; if you like C's operators, you can have them too: (define-syntax ++ (syntax-rules () ((_ sym) (begin (set! sym (+ sym 1)) sym)))) ; Now we can write programs just like we did in 1980! ; YAY? (for ((i 0) (< i 10) (++ i)) (print i)) (for (i '(larry moe curly)) ; Try this in C. (print i)) (for ((i 1.007) (< i 100) (set! i (* i i))) (print i)) There is a much bigger point here,* but 90% of working programmers will wilfully miss it,? because they apparently consider LEARNING or intellectual growth as something SUBTRACTED from their lives rather than added to it. This may be the same backward thinking referenced by Dijkstra when he pointed out that every line of code is a liability, not an asset. --Toby * - Informal bullet list related: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/pro/2011-July/000621.html ? - I can't improve much on this summary of the state of the industry: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=69 From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 08:17:52 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:17:52 +0000 Subject: Can haz macros? - Re: Useful languages on UNIX that are not C - was Re: C trivia Message-ID: <1784107891-1318943868-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1507045608-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> I think you meant 1959, but ok. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 18 08:17:59 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:17:59 -0400 Subject: Unix shell programming - Re: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia In-Reply-To: <201110181248.p9ICmrBj020302@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9CC0F4.8000100@gmail.com> <201110181248.p9ICmrBj020302@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9D7C87.6080706@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/10/11 8:48 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > From: Jules Richardson > >>> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >>> To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us >>> agree C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, >>> what does everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming >>> language? Seems to me nothing has the library, GUI support etc. like C >>> and C++ do, but> those languages seem suboptimal for most things. I >>> write almost no code on UNIX because I haven't ever found a traditional >>> compiled language I like that has enough support to make it usable. > >> I seem to split my coding time evenly between C, Java and - shock, horror >> - good ol' shell scripts, depending on requirements. I don't think C's >> ever automatically the wrong choice for anything - it just takes >> discipline to use it well. > > Thanks. Shell scripts are always useful, no question about it. > Under-rated, in terms of bang for the buck! --Toby >> What I'm yet to find is anything with good GUI support, though - by >> 'good' I mean 'quick to implement', not necessarily feature-rich. Every >> time I need a GUI for something I seem to spend a ridiculous amount of >> time having to learn how to throw a few buttons and whatnot up on the >> screen (for most things I can use an ASCII-based UI, thankfully, but >> there are some times when a few graphical widgets would be handy) > > I am looking at TCL. It misses on some of my important criteria but it > seems to support GUI outstandingly. > From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 08:27:19 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:27:19 +0000 Subject: Unix shell programming - Re: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia In-Reply-To: <4E9D7C87.6080706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E9CC0F4.8000100@gmail.com> <201110181248.p9ICmrBj020302@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> <4E9D7C87.6080706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1591390360-1318944434-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1625493076-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Yeah and they're something even us foreigners can relate to. Hard to beat Phil's SNOBOL4 for scripting on NIX though. -----Original Message----- From: Toby Thain Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:17:59 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Unix shell programming - Re: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia On 18/10/11 8:48 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > From: Jules Richardson > >>> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >>> To change the subject yet again in this thread...now that most of us >>> agree C is not much more than a (possibly bad) high level assembler, >>> what does everybody recommend for a general purpose UNIX programming >>> language? Seems to me nothing has the library, GUI support etc. like C >>> and C++ do, but> those languages seem suboptimal for most things. I >>> write almost no code on UNIX because I haven't ever found a traditional >>> compiled language I like that has enough support to make it usable. > >> I seem to split my coding time evenly between C, Java and - shock, horror >> - good ol' shell scripts, depending on requirements. I don't think C's >> ever automatically the wrong choice for anything - it just takes >> discipline to use it well. > > Thanks. Shell scripts are always useful, no question about it. > Under-rated, in terms of bang for the buck! --Toby >> What I'm yet to find is anything with good GUI support, though - by >> 'good' I mean 'quick to implement', not necessarily feature-rich. Every >> time I need a GUI for something I seem to spend a ridiculous amount of >> time having to learn how to throw a few buttons and whatnot up on the >> screen (for most things I can use an ASCII-based UI, thankfully, but >> there are some times when a few graphical widgets would be handy) > > I am looking at TCL. It misses on some of my important criteria but it > seems to support GUI outstandingly. > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 18 08:27:24 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unix shell programming - Re: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia In-Reply-To: <4E9D7C87.6080706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E9CC0F4.8000100@gmail.com> <201110181248.p9ICmrBj020302@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> <4E9D7C87.6080706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> From: Jules Richardson >> >> Thanks. Shell scripts are always useful, no question about it. >> > > Under-rated, in terms of bang for the buck! There used to be a mailing list hosted on classiccmp.org where people talked about vintage computers: what happened to it? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 18 10:20:03 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > On 10/17/11 9:33 AM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: >> >> What would be neat (for me anyway) is a remote desktop client that I could >> run on a Windows box that would allow me access to the native MacOS >> desktop (and the XCode IDE from there)... >> >> g. > > > Apple Remote desktop is VNC compatible, you can connect to a mac that you > have enabled remote desktop on with a windows or unix or ... VNC client. Thanks for the info. I'm now pondering this little gem right now: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/onthestick.html g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 18 10:22:20 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111017155910.S7903@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E9B4841.8090902@otter.se> <20111017155910.S7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I guess that I learned PART of that - I have never defenestrated a college > administrator! > Yet. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 18 10:23:22 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Randy Dawson wrote: > > anything would help... > > I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day > Hell, I'd take a thousand Tony's over a *single* Toby. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 18 10:35:35 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <20111017182311.L7903@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E9C5843.7459.18CE009@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111017165727.L7903@shell.lmi.net> <4E9C6FA7.5037.1E83B2E@cclist.sydex.com> <20111017182311.L7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I went the easy way and just wired up a WD1772 on an ISA prototype >> board. It takes very little additonal circuitry as data separator, >> etc. are built onto the chip. > > Is it too late to start marketing accessory boards for 5150? > The guys making the XT-IDE controller do ok, but that's an open source hardware project, so there's not a whole lot of marketing going on. :) (It's a very cool board though - booting a 5160 off of a CF card is very fast) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 18 10:38:52 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:38:52 -0700 Subject: Sperry 5000/Arete' 1200 Unix Mini In-Reply-To: References: <4E9CC6F0.9040603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E9D9D8C.5080900@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/11 7:23 PM, Jason T wrote: > Interesting reading re: BIX, too. Anyone know any other shops that > used these machines? > The Army/Sperry appears to be their initial big customer. There are lots of hits on 5000/80 in the Army. Oracle was also available, so I would expect it to be used in database apps too. http://www.porterdavis.org/computing/sperry.html http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA206762&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-6518567.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 18 10:41:11 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <1318449244.74676.YahooMailClassic@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Oct 2011, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Subject: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Steve Jobs -2011 > > Finally someone who declares this "Steve Jobs"-thread as SPAM! ;-) Yeah, it looks like amavis got tired of it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 18 10:43:49 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:43:49 -0700 Subject: programming languages and compilers (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <201110181159.p9IBxKCY022984@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9C34B3.31493.101F1EF@cclist.sydex.com> <201110181159.p9IBxKCY022984@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9D9EB5.9020703@brouhaha.com> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > The operating systems Eric mentioned are in the public domain, but as far > as what I have been told, it is not because IBM didn't assert copyright or > intentionally placed them in the public domain, but because of U.S. > copyright law prior to 1980. Prior to March 1, 1989, the effective date of the Berne Convention Implementation Act of 1988. It is *exactly* because IBM didn't assert copyright on the software; to assert copyright on the software would have required placing copyright notices on the software, which was not done. Whether intentional or not, the lack of those notices is what resulted in them being public domain. > For years including MVS 3.8 you got almost all the source just to be able > to do a sysgen. I was never a sysprog and never did a sysgen until a few > years ago, so I have no idea why they shipped it that way. But they did, > and everybody who bought a system got the OS to be able to do sysgens and > bring up their own system. That doesn't mean the OS and tools were open > source, The provision of source code to a customer combined with the lack of copyright is what made the tools open source. > I'm near certain if you didn't buy a system and sign a license > agreement you had no legal way to get the OS or compilers. Not true. Since there was no copyright, you could legally obtain a copy from anyone else that had one. There is nothing in the open source definition that requires that the author of the software be willing to *personally* give you a copy on demand. > If not, it makes no sense to restrict manuals and make a series of manuals > only for licensed customers when the source code is freely available. It makes perfect sense. It is a business decision. In the 1960s it wasn't even obvious that software could be copyrighted at all, but manuals definitely could. > I have never heard that the source was available without a license > which in turn requires a hardware purchase, I don't consider that open source. If the software (including source code) is in the public domain, legally available to you at no charge with no restrictions on redistribution, it's not open source? Whether IBM wanted it to be open source isn't the question. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 18 10:47:36 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:47:36 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110181246.p9ICkI9b020283@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <201110181246.p9ICkI9b020283@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9D9F98.6080106@brouhaha.com> David Cantrell wrote: > I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose > programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which > would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values > together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a > required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with > exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I am almost certain Ada 95 provides this. You can certainly specify the > number of digits of precison and create your own type or subtype Yes. > and I > believe the runtime automatically protects you from loss of precision. Even if it automatically protected you from loss of precision, which it doesn't, that isn't what David was asking for, or is only a small part of it. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 10:58:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:58:24 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net>, , <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E9D3FB0.1343.EC33C@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 10:28, David Cantrell wrote: > I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose > programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which > would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values > together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a > required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with > exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. It would be nice > to be able to automate away the problem of "measure with a micrometer, > mark with chalk, cut with an axe". Should be the first lesson in bonehead numerical methods. An answer with 20 digits, none of which is significant. Are there any modern hardware platforms that allow the user to specify the "noise digit" (using an ancient term for lack of a modern one) in floating-point operations? That is, can the user specify the bit pattern that is to be used when filling in nonsignificant positions during the process of normalizing? It used to be a useful exercise running the same calculations using say, all zeroes as normalizing fill and then repeating using all ones (or zeroes and nines, if you like to count on your fingers). --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 11:01:48 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:01:48 -0700 Subject: 11/03 system available in Spokane additional info In-Reply-To: <4E9BABBE.8010006@att.net> References: <201110151954.p9FJsNMN013252@floodgap.com> <4E9A028D.300@att.net> <4E9BABBE.8010006@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 9:14 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > > > On 10/15/2011 3:00 PM, steve shumaker wrote: >> >> Listed on CraigList Spokane. PDP 11/03 with 2 Rx02 drives in a cabinet. >> 2 "winchester" drives included as well. >> >> Seller is asking $200 and "wants it gone." ?System was apparently >> operational when he acquired it. >> >> Item 2636158984 >> >> steve > > > Seller provided a list of cards in the system ?today. ?Still looking for a > new home for ?the system > > PDP 11-03:(have photos of all the cards if anyone wants to see them. > > M7270 ? KD11-HA ? ? LSI-11/2 CPU ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(card 2) > ????? ? CRC-MSV11 ? Memory ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(card 3) > M8029 ? RXV21 ? ? ? RX02 floppy controller ? ? ?(card 4) > ????? ? ????? ? ? ? M8043 DLV11-J equivalent ? ?(card 5) > ????? ? ????? ? ? ? winchester controller??? ? ?(card 6) > > > email him direct at: ?salegeg at q.com > > I emailed him and provided those board descriptions based on the pictures he provided. There are also some other spare board too. Looks like a fairly typical 11/03 configuration with some spare boards. The one board that doesn't seem to fit is the M7284 board as that is listed as a Unibus board instead of a Q-bus board. Spokane is too long of a drive from Seattle for me. (Plus I don't need another -11 anyway). M7264 KD11-F 11/03 processor M7284 DA11-F Window control ??? M7957 DZV11-M 4-line async serial M8012 BDV11 Bus terminator, bootstrap and diagnostic ROMs M9400 REV11 Terminator, DMA refresh, bootstrap M7270 KD11-HA LSI-11/2 CPU (card 2) ????? CRC-MSV11 Memory (card 3) M8029 RXV21 RX02 floppy controller (card 4) ????? ????? M8043 DLV11-J equivalent (card 5) ????? ????? winchester controller??? (card 6) M7940 DLV11 async serial line M8045 MSV11 memory From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 18 11:05:03 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:05:03 -0700 Subject: open FTP index Message-ID: <4E9DA3AF.6080605@bitsavers.org> just stumbled upon this http://www.mmnt.net/ this is interesting since afaik Google doesn't index anonymous ftp sites and there is a site search. I see one of the trailing-edge sites is on there. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 11:25:12 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:25:12 +0000 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <4E9D9F98.6080106@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201110181625.p9IGPGuK017191@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> From: Eric Smith >David Cantrell wrote: >> I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose >> programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which >> would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values >> together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a >> required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with >> exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. > >vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> I am almost certain Ada 95 provides this. You can certainly specify the >> number of digits of precison and create your own type or subtype >Yes. > and I > believe the runtime automatically protects you from loss of precision. > Even if it automatically protected you from loss of precision, which it > doesn't, Ada 95 Reference Manual ISO/IEC 8652:1995(E) p. 45 section 3.5.9 Fixed Point Types: "A fixed point type is either an ordinary fixed point type, or a decimal fixed point type. The error bound of a fixed point type is specified as an absolute value, called the delta of the fixed point type." That suggests to me there is a guarantee against loss of precision. Why do you feel otherwise? > that isn't what David was asking for, or is only a small part of it. I'm sure he's glad you're his mom. Maybe you could let him speak for himself and we can hear what he thinks. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 11:38:02 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:38:02 +0000 Subject: programming languages and compilers (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) References: <4E9D9EB5.9020703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201110181638.p9IGc6KQ007432@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> From: Eric Smith > Prior to March 1, 1989, the effective date of the Berne Convention > Implementation Act of 1988. It is *exactly* because IBM didn't assert > copyright on the software; to assert copyright on the software would have > required placing copyright notices on the software, which was not done. > Whether intentional or not, the lack of those notices is what resulted in > them being public domain. Your statement appears to be correct. On the source I have for 3.8 they specifically state copyright = none or n/a. Thanks for pointing this out. > > For years including MVS 3.8 you got almost all the source just to be > > able to do a sysgen. I was never a sysprog and never did a sysgen until > > a few years ago, so I have no idea why they shipped it that way. But > > they did, and everybody who bought a system got the OS to be able to do > > sysgens and bring up their own system. That doesn't mean the OS and > > tools were open source, > The provision of source code to a customer combined with the lack of > copyright is what made the tools open source. I disagree. The provision of source code to anybody who wants it, whether a licensee or not, is what makes something open source. If you can't get the source unless you buy hardware and sign a license agreement, that is certainly not open source. > > I'm near certain if you didn't buy a system and sign a license > > agreement you had no legal way to get the OS or compilers. > Not true. Since there was no copyright, you could legally obtain a copy > from anyone else that had one. That is just conjecture and nothing more. There's no evidence anybody who wasn't a paying customer obtained a copy. > > If not, it makes no sense to restrict manuals and make a series of > > manuals only for licensed customers when the source code is freely > > available. > It makes perfect sense. It is a business decision. In the 1960s it > wasn't even obvious that software could be copyrighted at all, but > manuals definitely could. That suggests to me there was an intent to protect the source and they didn't know how. YMMV. > > I have never heard that the source was available without a license > > which in turn requires a hardware purchase, I don't consider that open > > source. > If the software (including source code) is in the public domain, legally > available to you at no charge with no restrictions on redistribution, > it's not open source? It is in the public domain *now* because somebody (Rich Fochtman) received explicit permission from IBM along with the archive tapes, and made them available on a web site. Since *at the time it was released* none of these OS were posted anywhere and were shipped only to paying, licensed hardware customers on tapes, it was not open source at the time. From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Oct 18 08:23:31 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:23:31 +1100 Subject: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110181248.p9ICmrBj020302@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9CC0F4.8000100@gmail.com> <201110181248.p9ICmrBj020302@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <58701C19-F6C2-4E12-A43B-A5C706FBC35D@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 18/10/2011, at 11:48 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > > I am looking at TCL. It misses on some of my important criteria but it > seems to support GUI outstandingly. If you think TCL is a good fit, look at Python too. I moved from TCL to Python a while back. It has the advantage that Python has been ported to lots of environments. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 11:44:46 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:44:46 +0000 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9D3FB0.1343.EC33C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net> , , <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4E9D3FB0.1343.EC33C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1139426379-1318956281-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-777287476-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> This sounds so familiar but I can't remember where I read about it. -----Original Message----- From: "Chuck Guzis" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:58:24 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died On 18 Oct 2011 at 10:28, David Cantrell wrote: > I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose > programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which > would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values > together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a > required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with > exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. It would be nice > to be able to automate away the problem of "measure with a micrometer, > mark with chalk, cut with an axe". Should be the first lesson in bonehead numerical methods. An answer with 20 digits, none of which is significant. Are there any modern hardware platforms that allow the user to specify the "noise digit" (using an ancient term for lack of a modern one) in floating-point operations? That is, can the user specify the bit pattern that is to be used when filling in nonsignificant positions during the process of normalizing? It used to be a useful exercise running the same calculations using say, all zeroes as normalizing fill and then repeating using all ones (or zeroes and nines, if you like to count on your fingers). --Chuck From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 11:47:12 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:47:12 +0000 Subject: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <58701C19-F6C2-4E12-A43B-A5C706FBC35D@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <4E9CC0F4.8000100@gmail.com> <201110181248.p9ICmrBj020302@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> <58701C19-F6C2-4E12-A43B-A5C706FBC35D@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <475641095-1318956427-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1872604181-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Thanks. I looked at Python but it's too weird for me for some reason. Having to use tabs as part of the syntax!? TCL runs everywhere I need at the moment. Haven't settled on it, still playing around. Seems very nice for a scripting language. -----Original Message----- From: Huw Davies Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:23:31 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: oops, bit vectors - not Re: struct bitfields - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died On 18/10/2011, at 11:48 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > > I am looking at TCL. It misses on some of my important criteria but it > seems to support GUI outstandingly. If you think TCL is a good fit, look at Python too. I moved from TCL to Python a while back. It has the advantage that Python has been ported to lots of environments. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From david at classiccomputing.com Tue Oct 18 12:05:22 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:05:22 -0500 Subject: Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Message-ID: A new show is posted! A whopping two-parter at 55 minutes each, with Blake Patterson as our guest from bytecellar.com / toucharcade.com Retro Computing Roundtable podcast, show 17 Get it through iTunes or listen online @ http://bit.ly/pAJWKs or download it directly @ https://public.me.com/dgreelish Best, David Greelish President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Oct 18 12:07:00 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:07:00 -0700 Subject: open FTP index In-Reply-To: <4E9DA3AF.6080605@bitsavers.org> References: <4E9DA3AF.6080605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201110181007.00747.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hi Al, et al, On Tuesday 18 October 2011, you wrote: > just stumbled upon this > http://www.mmnt.net/ > > this is interesting since afaik Google doesn't index anonymous ftp sites and > there is a site search. This is quite an amazing site. I did some random testing against Google - and it appears you're right, Google does not index anonymous ftp sites. Thanks! > I see one of the trailing-edge sites is on there. Yup - and references to trailing-edge in: Index of ftp://ftp7.FreeBSD.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org Index of ftp://ftp.mrynet.com/operatingsystems/RSTS Mamont's open FTP Index / Page 49 of 49 Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 12:25:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:25:07 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <1139426379-1318956281-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-777287476-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <20111016130027.C62224@shell.lmi.net>, <4E9D3FB0.1343.EC33C@cclist.sydex.com>, <1139426379-1318956281-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-777287476-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4E9D5403.3010.5E2793@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 16:44, Vintage Coder wrote: > This sounds so familiar but I can't remember where I read about it. Program much 1620 SPS using Monitor II? *NOISE DIGIT n was an SPS control record when using the floating-point subroutines. It was stored in the system table area on disk. Oddly, this was not offered as an option on FORTRAN II-D. CDC 6000 series machines had three sets of floating point instructions. Nomalized, un-normalized and "rounded". Rounded would introduce non-zero normalization fill, which varied depending on the operation. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 12:57:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:57:07 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110181625.p9IGPGuK017191@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9D9F98.6080106@brouhaha.com>, <201110181625.p9IGPGuK017191@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9D5B83.25691.7B7170@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 16:25, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > That suggests to me there is a guarantee against loss of precision. > Why do you feel otherwise? When using floating-point is there any language that automatically tracks the precision of the result? There probably is, but I've never run into it. Floating-point/exponential notation with a fixed number of places in the mantissa is like a loaded shotgun. Arithmetic asociative and distributive rules go out the window (something, sadly, a lot of compiler writers don't understand). Every printed digit is accepted as being part of the precise answer. So you get 20 digits of garbage. Some hardware floating point is worse than others. In particular, S/360 single-precision floating point was particularly awful. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 18 13:06:03 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9B4841.8090902@otter.se> <20111017155910.S7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111018110524.L42131@shell.lmi.net> > > I guess that I learned PART of that - I have never defenestrated a college > > administrator! On Tue, 18 Oct 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Yet. :) 3.52 semesters to go. But who's counting? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 13:16:32 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:16:32 +0000 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <4E9D5403.3010.5E2793@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110181816.p9IIGarp027146@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> From: "Chuck Guzis" > Program much 1620 SPS using Monitor II? > > *NOISE DIGIT n No, that was before my time. I started on OS/360 and I didn't ever use anything earlier than FORTRAN G and not much of that. I did use VS FORTRAN heavily for a short while but I can't remember much about it. Then I got out of applications and haven't been back. > CDC 6000 series machines had three sets of floating point instructions. > Nomalized, un-normalized and "rounded". Rounded would introduce non-zero > normalization fill, which varied depending on the operation. If you want the link to the doc on IBM's instructions (Principles Of Operation) I'll send it to you. I took a quick look now but the floating point is over my head. Somewhere along the line they added the IEEE binary floating point support, but the original hex implementation had normalized and unnormalized instructions too. I just can't remember if their FORTRAN had protection against a useless mantissa or not, but I seem to remember it did. I wouldn't swear to it though, I'm pretty rusty on that stuff. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Oct 18 13:35:05 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:35:05 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: Message-ID: <623455988BF247CD8A718BA873B913E6@vl420mt> -------------Original Message: -------------- Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:06:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died > ...Although, admittedly, that was half a century ago (PI does NOT change!) > (or DOES IT??)) > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred -------------------------- Well, Xerox was ready in case it ever does! Supposedly from their Fortran manual: "The primary purpose of the Data statement is to give names to constants; instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every appearance, the variable Pi can be given that value with a Data statement and used instead of the longer form of the constant. This also simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change." mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 13:51:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:51:55 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110181816.p9IIGarp027146@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9D5403.3010.5E2793@cclist.sydex.com>, <201110181816.p9IIGarp027146@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9D685B.26997.AD9C56@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 18:16, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > If you want the link to the doc on IBM's instructions (Principles Of > Operation) I'll send it to you. I took a quick look now but the > floating point is over my head. Somewhere along the line they added > the IEEE binary floating point support, but the original hex > implementation had normalized and unnormalized instructions too. I > just can't remember if their FORTRAN had protection against a useless > mantissa or not, but I seem to remember it did. I wouldn't swear to it > though, I'm pretty rusty on that stuff. The "red book"? I've still got the one I bought in the 1960s. I didn't say that S/360 didn't have unnormalized FP operations; it certainly did, at least according to my "green card" that I still have. I can't find anything about FP rounding normalization bits. I thought your reference might be to a bit in the PSW that I hadn't noticed before, but a quick check shows otherwise. No, the evil in the S/360 FP operations was that normalization was carried out to, not bit boundaries, but "nibble" (half-byte) boundaries. So the casual user, thinking that he's got 24 bits of precision in the mantissa would find out that he was very wrong. AFAIK IEEE floating point didn't enter into the picture until S/390. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 13:55:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:55:50 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <623455988BF247CD8A718BA873B913E6@vl420mt> References: , <623455988BF247CD8A718BA873B913E6@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4E9D6946.19647.B133E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 14:35, MikeS wrote: > "The primary purpose of the Data statement is to give names to > constants; > instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every appearance, > the variable Pi can be given that value with a Data statement and > used instead of the longer form of the constant. This also > simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change." i.e., When running the program in Indiana. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Oct 18 14:07:35 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:07:35 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <623455988BF247CD8A718BA873B913E6@vl420mt> References: <623455988BF247CD8A718BA873B913E6@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4E9DCE77.1080107@philpem.me.uk> On 18/10/11 19:35, MikeS wrote: > "The primary purpose of the Data statement is to give names to constants; > instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every appearance, the > variable Pi can be given that value with a Data statement and used instead > of the longer form of the constant. This also simplifies modifying the > program, should the value of pi change." Well, who knows? They might have been predicting better FPUs with longer word lengths, which could represent Pi to a much greater precision! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 18 14:09:13 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 19:09:13 +0000 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <4E9D685B.26997.AD9C56@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110181909.p9IJ9HAs001175@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> From: "Chuck Guzis" > The "red book"? I've still got the one I bought in the 1960s. I can send you the links to current doc. > I didn't say that S/360 didn't have unnormalized FP operations; it > certainly did, at least according to my "green card" that I still have. Oh I know you didn't. And I am sure you know a lot more about it than I do, this is not my area. > I can't find anything about FP rounding normalization bits. I thought > your reference might be to a bit in the PSW that I hadn't noticed before, > but a quick check shows otherwise. AFAIK there are sets of instructions for use with normalized or unnormalized operands, but I seem to recall there is also a control bit somewhere. I don't remember what it is used for. > AFAIK IEEE floating point didn't enter into the picture until S/390. I thought it was earlier, maybe with XA, but I really don't know. I remember they snuck it in there without telling me and when I found it in the POPs I was shocked. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Oct 18 15:02:38 2011 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:02:38 +0200 Subject: old clocks Message-ID: <201110182002.p9IK2o6A058489@billy.ezwind.net> Oh well, another post that reminds me of all that tinkering I'd like to do but can't due to lack of time right now. There is a broken Siemens "Hauptuhr" (master clock) HU 10 in one of ?y banana boxes from hell, which formerly did its duty in a school in my district. This is more modern (I'd say 70s if not 80s vintage) unit with a lead-acid battery for backup and a discrete electrical second (or maybe half-second) oscillator driving the "seconds" part of the mechanical work, which in turn actuates a contact to generate "minute" pulses for both the minutes/hours hands of the local dial and the slave clocks. It seems that just the primary oscillator or maybe the seconds actuator is broken, as manually generating pulses via the Set button does advance the hands as expected. What's more, the device also comprises a loop of, IIRC, 5-level punched tape in a box with, I think, one "character" position for every five minutes in either 24 hours or even seven days, which would usually probably be used to ring a bell for signalling the breaks at the desired times (on schooldays), but could of course also accomodate other functions. I also do have a kind of slave clock, but not the usual hands-and-dial variety - mine is a digital one which looks like it was from some kind of larger office and works by means of plastic sheets printed with numbers and arranged in a horizontal drum, which flip downward, one per minute, at the actuation of a magnet. Besides hours and minutes, this thing also has a whole calendar with day-of-week, day-of-month and month display derived from this movement, but I've not yet investigated how it deals with the different lengths of the months, i.e. whether it will need manual intervention every two months or just once a year (apart from going into/leaving DST, of course). Unfortunately some greedy, egoistic creature has pilfered some of the flip sheets, so these will have to be recreated using some kind of plastic stock and painted to match the figure patterns of the rest. Uh huh, how long will I have to live... So long, yours sincerely Arno Kletzander ...sent from HTC Magician PDA ----- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht ----- >Message: 17 >Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:39:08 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: old clocks >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain >> Does anyone in here admire/collect old clocks? I want to get a Standard > >Hell yes. I've been interested in clocks for longer than I've been >interested in computers :-). All types of 'clocks' actually, from >sundials to atomic clocks. > >I am (as you have probably guesed) more interested in the movements >(mechanisms, working parts, call it what you will) than the cases. >Unforutnately, antique clocks are expensive, so I can't own what I'd >really like to own, but I cvna still enjoy repairing a 1930's shelf clock >that I've bought for \pounds 10.00 or so in a charity shop (thrift >store). > >> Electric AR-2 slave clock (60s style). I fondly remember that model as >> the one used at my elementary and junior high schools. > >Alas I cna't help you there. > >-tony > > > >Message: 19 >Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:22:58 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: old clocks >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain > >> I was a proffesional clockmaker for a while. >> We did mechanical, electric and electronic clock repair and >> manufacture, till the site closed. >> Dont forget you will need some form of master clock to drive the slave dial. >> The drive is a current pulse set to a fixed current and all the dials >> are in series. > > >Many slave clock systems had the dials in series as you describe (and as >is described in Hope-Jones's book), but I am sure the system we had at >school (which weas almost certainly from Gents of Leicester) had the >slave dials in parallel and fed them 24V pulses. I deducdd the first fact >by unpluging the connector on one of the slaved and finding it had no >effect on any of the others and the latter by useing a 'scope... > >Anyway, the pulses for that system were alternate polarity pulses, one >pulse per minute. Something like this : > > -- -- > | | | | >-- ------ ------ ------ -- > | | | | > -- -- > > | | > | | > <-1min-> > >The slave clock motor was similar in concept to the motors in those quartz >insert movements. It had 2 mechncially stable positions half a turn apart. >The +ve goign pulse pulled the (magnetised rotor) one way round between >the ends of the coil core, when the pulse ended, the rotor moved ot the >nearest mechanically stable position. The next pulse (of the oppostie >polarity) again lined the rotor up with the coil core, but the other way >round, It then moved to the other stable position. And so on. > >The master clock had a spring-drivien mechancial movement with a short >(about 30cm) pendulum. The spring was automatically rewound my an >electric motor, and would keep the clock running for quite a time (12 >hours or more) if the mains failed. The pulses to the slave dials were >generated by a pair of 3-terminal mercury switches, which were rocked by >a camshaft. Power to the switches (and thus the slave dials) came from a >transofmer/rectifier unit. Of course if the mains failed, no pulses were >gneerated (there was no battery backup) and the slave dials didn't move. >However therew was a mechanism invovling a mains motor and a differneital >gear which kept track of the missing pulses (when the mains motor wasn't >turnign). When the mains came back on, the thing 'caught up' generating >pulses every few seconds to reset the slaves to the correct time, > >Anyway.... > >While it would be nice to have such a master clock (or, indeed one of the >synchonomes), these slave dials (in all the common systems) effectively >count electrical pulses. And it doesn't matter how you genrate the >pulses. Provided you know what the pulses should look like (voltage, >current, whether they have to be of alternating polarity), it's a fund >exercise to design a digital circuti to produce them using your favourite >technology, whether that's TTL, FPGAs or microcontrollers. > >-tony > > >------------------------------ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 18 15:14:07 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:14:07 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9CB7C0.1030104@telegraphics.com.au> References: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 17, 11 10:01:35 am", <201110171732.p9HHWY0l016628@floodgap.com> <4E9C0930.28475.57FD35@cclist.sydex.com> <8981f94eb9ee2ffc01e39f84afd223da@cs.ubc.ca> <4E9CB7C0.1030104@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: From: Toby Thain Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 4:18 PM > On 17/10/11 3:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2011 Oct 17, at 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> In other words, had Unix been a closed proprietary OS, would we even >>> be talking about C? Or would it be sort of a vintage curiosity like >>> BCPL or B? >> At the time (late-60s/70s), there was an interest in having a language >> "just above assembler" for things like OS-development - > BLISS? Old DECUS button: "BLISS is Ignorance" A language designed by people who drank the Dahl/Dijskstr/Hoare Kool-Aid(TM) in large enough amounts to cause brain damage. NB: I am not a C programmer (though I have done some fairly extensive C coding). I have also dealt with BLISS: Kermit-10 was written in BLISS-10 (the earlier CMU implementation, distinct from BLISS-36 from Digital), as was the Fortran compiler from DEC. I made a living doing PL/I and COBOL and Assembler on the 360/370 architecture before moving to the DEC-20 and Macro-20 (later expanding to PDP-10 in general, with Macro-10 and Midas for Tops-20 and ITS). I've even written Fortran in anger. I prefer Lisp for big stuff, Macro-10/20 for little tools, and hack TECO to support EMACS. Wow. A disclaimer 5x the disclaimed text. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 18 15:15:55 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:15:55 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: From: vintagecoder at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:43 AM > When people wanted to port the IBM OS family to x86 they wrote Hercules to > emulate the hardware. The OS doesn't make sense on anything but System/360, > 370, 390, Z, etc. It was easier to port the hardware than the software. When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same thing. (Z, in your list above.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 18 15:20:29 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:20:29 -0700 Subject: NUL-terminated strings - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9CB58E.4020406@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9CB58E.4020406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: From: Toby Thain Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 4:09 PM On 17/10/11 5:36 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> On the PDP-6 (and its successor, the PDP-10), there are 2 pseudo-ops >> to create a string of ASCII characters in memory, "ASCII" and "ASCIZ". > These directives also exist in MACRO-11 on the PDP-11, and MACRO-32 > (VAX-11, Alpha and Itanium). Yes, taken from the predecessor systems. The PDP numbering is consistent, a consistency lost in the 1970s. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Oct 18 15:34:15 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:34:15 +0200 Subject: NUL-terminated strings - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9CB58E.4020406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E9DE2C7.3090905@update.uu.se> On 10/18/2011 10:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > Yes, taken from the predecessor systems. The PDP numbering is consistent, > a consistency lost in the 1970s. Even PDP-12 ? /Pontus From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 15:44:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:44:13 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2011 04:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> When people wanted to port the IBM OS family to x86 they wrote Hercules to >> emulate the hardware. The OS doesn't make sense on anything but System/360, >> 370, 390, Z, etc. It was easier to port the hardware than the software. > > When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same thing. > (Z, in your list above.) Hey Rich...If you're suggesting z/Series machines are based on POWER processors, please provide some references. Everything I've ever seen about them (including rooting around inside the z890 in the next room) says they're completely self-contained with their own CPU implementation family. Lots of people have suggested that modern IBM mainframes are somehow built around RS/6000 chipsets with different microcode, but have never been able to back up those claims. (not trying to be argumentative, and would happily stand corrected, but I keep hearing people make this statement and then fall silent when asked to prove it) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 15:48:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:48:41 -0400 Subject: programming languages and compilers (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <4E9D9EB5.9020703@brouhaha.com> References: <4E9C34B3.31493.101F1EF@cclist.sydex.com> <201110181159.p9IBxKCY022984@imr-db03.mx.aol.com> <4E9D9EB5.9020703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9DE629.3060909@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2011 11:43 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Whether IBM wanted it to be open source isn't the question. It has certainly helped them though, whether they want to admit it or not. The availability of things like VM/370 and MVS 3.8J (and of course Hercules) has turned a whole lot of people on to mainframe technology and caused interest to develop where otherwise it likely wouldn't have. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 18 15:49:57 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: from Rich Alderson at "Oct 18, 11 01:15:55 pm" Message-ID: <201110182049.p9IKnvOB011902@floodgap.com> > > When people wanted to port the IBM OS family to x86 they wrote Hercules to > > emulate the hardware. The OS doesn't make sense on anything but System/360, > > 370, 390, Z, etc. It was easier to port the hardware than the software. > > When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same thing. > (Z, in your list above.) I argue this a little. Even though eClipz ostensibly "unified" the architectures with the POWER6 generation, z10 is descended from POWER6 but is definitely not POWER. It still implements the z ISA and is still fully compatible with S/360. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us! --------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 15:50:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:50:58 -0400 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2011 08:02 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >>> anything would help... >>> I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day >> >> I would much rather read Tony and Chuck than do what I am supposed to be doing! > > And I would much rather read emails by you and Tony and Chuck and Dave > McGuire. > > Funny, this list is about classic computing but some people don't > appreciate the old timers who are classics. For me having you guys (ok, > Dave is a youngin') around is the best part of this list. There is an > important period in computing before I got started in the late 1970s that I > don't know enough about, and I enjoy hearing comments from the guys who > were there. I'm old enough to appreciate being called a youngin' once in a while. ;) I'm 42, been computing since I was ~12, doing it for money since I was ~14. Don't paint me as too much of a newbie; I used most of what we talk about on this list at work when it was modern! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 15:54:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:54:11 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com>, <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com>, Message-ID: <4E9D8503.21840.11D8D70@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 13:15, Rich Alderson wrote: > When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same > thing. (Z, in your list above.) Tangentially relevant... I wonder how many S/360 machines spent their entire operating life running in 1401 or 7080 emulation mode? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:56:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:56:29 -0000 Subject: old clocks In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Oct 17, 11 02:52:48 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > > > I was a proffesional clockmaker for a while. > > We did mechanical, electric and electronic clock repair and > > manufacture, till the site closed. > > Dont forget you will need some form of master clock to drive the slave dial. > > The drive is a current pulse set to a fixed current and all the dials > > are in series. > > My plan is to tinker together a radio-controlled (aka atomic) master > clock for this slave clock. To me, those are 2 differnet things -- a radio-controlled clock is one that receives a standard time signal (which is almost certainly based on an atomic clock). An atomic clock implies to me that the beam stnadard is 'local' - -that is that you are running it yourself. Making a time signal receiver to run a slave clock shouldn't be too hard. You don't need to decode the time data in the signal (I asusme you are not going to try to se the hands automatically, since that would require significant modifications to the slave clock so the control system can determine where the hands are, or at least to be able to detect when they're at 12 o'clock) so you can have a known reference point). What you nwed to be able to do is recognise the 'minute marker' (which in the xase of MSF is a sequence of long and short pulses sent one per second before the minute time whichcann occur nowhere else in the signal (since the time data, also encoded by long nad short pulses is sent in BCD). One you have the minute marker decoded, you essentially have one pulse per minute. You then need to turn that into suitable pulses for your slave clock. The things you need ot knw are the voltage/current required, the pulse length required and whether you have to invert the pulse on every other minute (see my description of the system we had at school). I beelvie you can now buy receiver modules for the standard time signals that output a nice logic-level signal. This takes all the fun out of it -- I had to build and align my own receiver when I did it. It's not that hard to do, the frequencies involved are pretty low which helps a lot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:56:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:56:37 -0000 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9C46DC.24741.148E340@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 17, 11 03:16:44 pm Message-ID: > Even the IBM Displaywriter used EBCDIC--and that was an 8086. Didn't the Datamaster (8085 based) use EBCDIC too? It's perhaps quicker to list the classic IBM machines that _didn't_ use EBCDIC :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:56:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:56:45 -0000 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <20111017151932.E7903@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 17, 11 03:21:02 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > Being pedantic about it, it appears you were bit-banging serial I/O over > > lines of the IBM printer interface, in which case I think it becomes a > > serial port :-). > > and LATER IBM "printer interface"s did not require ANY modifiaction for > use bi-directionally, in spite of that NOT being what IBM had "intended". I didn't think any of the PC-family (ISA) IBM printer ports were bidirecitonal 'out of the box', were they? What i find curious is that the origianl printer interface card was clearly designed to be trivially modifyable to be bidiectional. The mod is always easy in concept -- disconnect the output enable pino of the data latch from ground and connect it to the unused output of the control port latch, and make sure the appropriate bus data line goes to the input of this section of the latch. But IBM made it easy. Firstly they did link up the data line to the input of the unused section of the cotrol latch. Secondly, the track groudning the ouptu enable pin of the data latch had a couple of vias on it, all you had to do was cut it between those vias. And the 'unusued' output of the control latch went to a via next to that. Sit was just a matter of cutting the track and soldering in a short jumper. What i find curious is that this is not mentioned in the TechRef. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:56:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:56:51 -0000 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110172308.p9HN8EbC022980@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust" at Oct 17, 11 06:06:15 pm Message-ID: > >Being pedantic about it, it appears you were bit-banging serial I/O over > >lines of the IBM printer interface, in which case I think it becomes a > >serial port :-). > > Being pedantic about it, I'd say that twiddling more than one line > at once changes it from serial to parallel. So an interface which transfers data bit-serially over a pair of differentially-driving lines is a parallel interface? (2 lines are changing at once) I think that if you're sending data one bit at a time, that's a serial interface. No matter whaty else you might be doing at the same time or whether the conversion between that serial data and the parallel data used by most microprocessors is done in hardware or software. A bit-banged serial interface _is_ a serial interface, even if you're using other lines on the same (parallel) port to do other things Some older manuals refer to things like the Centronics interface as 'chracter serial, bit parellel' meaning the chracters are sent one after the other but the bits for each character are all sent at once. Some old digital measuring instruemnts have 'sigit parallel' interfaces. For example the 9 display digits will be sent all at once over 36 wires (4 bit BCD for each digit). Th HP11203 BCD interface for the 9800s is a converter from digit-parallel data to digit-serial (but still bit-parallel) data. It takes in all the digits, selects them one at a time and passes them on to the CPU I/O register (where they then become bit-serial). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:56:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:56:57 -0000 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Oct 17, 11 06:11:57 pm Message-ID: > > > anything would help... > > I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day Waht sort of cruel tyrant _focces_ you to read my (or anyone elses) postings to any mailing list? More seriously : - Uee the delete function in your mail programm - Use a mail filter - Unsubscribe from the list (And I don/t think I've sent 20 messages in a day for a long time) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:57:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:57:06 -0000 Subject: Floating point, In-Reply-To: <201110172324.p9HNOr7W013860@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 17, 11 04:24:53 pm Message-ID: > > > > I never understood the popularity of that approximation. 86953/27678 is > > > more accurate. (*) > > > > Sure, and there ae ever more accurate rational approximations. > > You do realize I was being facetious, right? :) Of course. I was trying to prevent a thread where we get one message after another givning the rational approximation obtained by adding one more term to the continued fraction approximation. > > I like 355/113 myself. Yes, it's very easy to remember, and accurate enough for a lot of practical work. Of course it _is_ an aproximation, anyone who claims it's exact is plain wrong. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:57:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:57:15 -0000 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 17, 11 04:29:50 pm Message-ID: > I would much rather read Tony and Chuck than do what I am supposed to be > doing! Yes, but from what you've said about the cluelessness in your workplace, that's not saying much :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:57:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:57:20 -0000 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL In-Reply-To: <20111017165727.L7903@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 17, 11 05:01:08 pm Message-ID: > Using a WD1793, or variant thereof, would require a complete rewrite of > Int13h. AFAIK, nobody ever got around to doing that, so I kept a TRS80-3 > around just for the WD REAL "track read" command. I am possibly mis-rememebring this, but I am fiarly sure I have an early-ish MS-DOS machine (8088 based with 8-bit ISA sots) with a WD279x on the motherboard. I must try to find it and check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:57:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:57:27 -0000 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Oct 17, 11 05:06:30 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > I recall a while back a thread on dealing with screen rot on ADM-3a > terminals - surprising to me, because I have several of them and have > had no such issue. But I do have nasty looking spots on a HP 9845A > screen. Does anyone have specific experience with addressing this > problem on this machine? Just to be clear, it looks like round mold > colonies around the edges of the screen. It's likely that there's an > anti-glare coating and something colonized underneath it. Again, I'm > looking for specific details regarding this machine or another machine > of the era using the same screen technology, and how you eliminated the > colonies. :-) I've (fortunately) never seen this problem 'in the flesh', although I am told it can affect HP CRTs. Even my 2623 terminal is still perfect. The front of the CRT is actually 2 pieces of glass bonded together, the idea beign that it'll act like a car's laminated windscreen if the CRT inmpodes and will prfecnt glass flying everywhere. The mould develops in the bonding 'glue'. There have bene several descriptions of how to cut through this glue and separa the glass panels withput letting the vacuum out of the CRT. Running a thin wire, possibly electrically heated, between them is the scommon way. But a word of warning. CRT implosion is not at all pleasant. It's perhaps worth rememebrign that even in the 1940s and 1950s, when we didn't live in a 'compensation culture', all TVs (or at least all those sold in the UK) had a safet screen in fornt of the CRT (which did not have a lamianted glass faceplate at that time). CRT implosion was very rate (I've met one person who worked in a TV reapir shop and said it happned to them _once_ in all his time working there), but it was obviouisly serious enough that the mnufactuerers ddi soemthing about it. And all the CRT data books I've looked in specifically say that no attempt must be made ot remvoe the bonded galss faceplate. Now, as you knowe I gernally approve of repairing rather htan replacing, so I am not going to suggest you should't try to remvoe the safety glass. But I do feel that removing it and leaving it out, as some have suggested, is downright irresponsible. If you remvoe it, you need to rebond it to the CRT, and make sure the bond is osound. I wonder if the optical adhasives used for bonding lens elements (the ones that cure under UV light) are good for this? I don't baev a 9845A, only a 9845B, and that with the enhanced mono monitor. But if that's anythign to go by, while there's some complex circuitry in the monitor (much fo the video generation logic is there), the actuall monitor seciton -- the CRT and its drivers -- are fairly convnetional. Is there any reason not to consider replacing the CRT in your machine? > Thanks -- Ian -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:57:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:57:38 -0000 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> from "David Cantrell" at Oct 18, 11 10:28:25 am Message-ID: > I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose > programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which > would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values > together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a > required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with > exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. It would be nice to > be able to automate away the problem of "measure with a micrometer, mark > with chalk, cut with an axe". Some years ago, at the HPCC conference (I think it was in 2007), Hugh Steers presents a piece of software he'd written where you could specift the precieon you wanted in the answer and which would then use better approximations as necesssty until that precision had been reached. I won't publish hs e-mail address on this list, but if you are interested i can put you in touch with him. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 18 16:00:19 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:00:19 -0700 Subject: "public domain" vs. "open source"/"open access" [was RE: programming languages and compilers...] In-Reply-To: <201110181638.p9IGc6KQ007432@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9D9EB5.9020703@brouhaha.com> <201110181638.p9IGc6KQ007432@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: From: vintagecoder at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:38 AM > It is in the public domain *now* because somebody (Rich Fochtman) received > explicit permission from IBM along with the archive tapes, and made them > available on a web site. Since *at the time it was released* none of these > OS were posted anywhere and were shipped only to paying, licensed hardware > customers on tapes, it was not open source at the time. "Public domain" does not equate to "open source"! The former is a legal status, the latter is a philosophy. The IBM operating systems have been in the public domain (a legal status) since they were first published, due the lack of any marking of the sources or object code or executables as copyrighted--a requirement of the copyright law of the US as it stood at that time. DEC inserted copyrighting text into the object code as well as the source of its programs, including operating systems, in the early 70s, unlike IBM. At the time that DEC did this, it was a legal grey area, being argued in courts as well as in trade publications, as to whether software *could* be given a copyright. IBM fell on one side of the debate, DEC on the other, when it comes to having marked their respective software libraries as copyrighted. It was certainly possible, in the 1960s and 1970s, and even into the 1980s, for anyone to obtain a copy of IBM's operating system sources. All it took was a friendly systems programmer in an IBM shop. The reason more did NOT escape was that, as a class, IBM-shop systems programmers were unfriendly to budding hackers. They recognized that if just anyone got hold of a copy of the system they were running, weaknesses could be found and exploited. It was a paranoid time, what with radicals of all stripes running amok in the streets, most of them convinced that computers were evil machines used to keep track of their every movement. There were no legal recourses for IBM against someone who did hand out the sources, because the software was in the public domain (legal status) and IBM could not assert ownership. What Rich Fochtman apparently brings to the table is easy open access to the sources. This is a philosophical win for the open source folks, but it is an accession by IBM to the reality of the public domain status of those sources. Just hoping to clear up an apparent semantic confusion. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 18 16:03:11 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9D8503.21840.11D8D70@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Oct 18, 11 01:54:11 pm" Message-ID: <201110182103.p9IL3BTt015558@floodgap.com> > > When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same > > thing. (Z, in your list above.) > > Tangentially relevant... > > I wonder how many S/360 machines spent their entire operating life > running in 1401 or 7080 emulation mode? This just dawned on me: perhaps Rich was referring to AS/400 (System i). That *does* run on POWER now. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Friends don't let friends use Windows. ------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 16:13:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:13:59 -0700 Subject: open FTP index In-Reply-To: <201110181007.00747.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <4E9DA3AF.6080605@bitsavers.org>, <201110181007.00747.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4E9D89A7.15491.12FAE20@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 10:07, Lyle Bickley wrote: > This is quite an amazing site. I did some random testing against > Google - and it appears you're right, Google does not index anonymous > ftp sites. I tried the search, but I still can't find a copy of WATFOR77 on the web. It's amazing that it seems to have vanished completely. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 16:23:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:23:46 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9C46DC.24741.148E340@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 17, 11 03:16:44 pm, Message-ID: <4E9D8BF2.4697.138A52B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2011 at 20:58, Tony Duell wrote: > > Even the IBM Displaywriter used EBCDIC--and that was an 8086. > > Didn't the Datamaster (8085 based) use EBCDIC too? It's perhaps > quicker to list the classic IBM machines that _didn't_ use EBCDIC :-) At least pre-1982, yes, I think the list would be much shorter. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 18 16:25:14 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:25:14 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110181625.p9IGPGuK017191@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9D9F98.6080106@brouhaha.com> <201110181625.p9IGPGuK017191@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9DEEBA.8020300@brouhaha.com> On 10/18/2011 09:25 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Ada 95 Reference Manual ISO/IEC 8652:1995(E) p. 45 section 3.5.9 Fixed > Point Types: > "A fixed point type is either an ordinary fixed point type, or a decimal > fixed point type. The error bound of a fixed point type is specified as an > absolute value, called the delta of the fixed point type." > That suggests to me there is a guarantee against loss of precision. Why do > you feel otherwise? Because that only specifies the precision of the type. It both doesn't guarantee the precision of operations on the type, and doesn't help you with keeping track of the precision of results of limited-precision operations. >> that isn't what David was asking for, or is only a small part of it. > I'm sure he's glad you're his mom. Maybe you could let him speak for himself > and we can hear what he thinks. I wasn't referring to what David was thinking, which clearly I don't know. I was referring to what David wrote, which clearly wasn't what Ada95 provides. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 16:29:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:29:44 -0400 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9DEFC8.5010008@neurotica.com> On 01/18/2011 04:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I would much rather read Tony and Chuck than do what I am supposed to be >> doing! > > Yes, but from what you've said about the cluelessness in your workplace, > that's not saying much :-) ROFL!! Nicely put! -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 18 16:33:20 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:33:20 +0100 Subject: help me get off this list References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <020201cc8ddf$8843cd30$0e1378d5@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:29 AM Subject: Re: help me get off this list > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Randy Dawson wrote: > > anything would help... > > I cant read 20 Tony Duell emails a day > > I would much rather read Tony and Chuck than do what I am supposed to be > doing! > > Agreed. I always enjoy reading Tony and Chucks replies. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 16:46:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:46:07 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110182103.p9IL3BTt015558@floodgap.com> References: <201110182103.p9IL3BTt015558@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E9DF39F.6020302@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2011 05:03 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same >>> thing. (Z, in your list above.) >> >> Tangentially relevant... >> >> I wonder how many S/360 machines spent their entire operating life >> running in 1401 or 7080 emulation mode? > > This just dawned on me: perhaps Rich was referring to AS/400 (System i). > That *does* run on POWER now. Yes, but with different microcode (at least a superset of PPC), right? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 18 17:05:16 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:05:16 -0700 Subject: programming languages and compilers (was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died) In-Reply-To: <201110181638.p9IGc6KQ007432@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9D9EB5.9020703@brouhaha.com> <201110181638.p9IGc6KQ007432@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9DF81C.6070506@brouhaha.com> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I disagree. The provision of source code to anybody who wants it, whether a > licensee or not, is what makes something open source. That's a strange definition of open source. You're saying that if I have source code to a program from Joe, and I have a legal right to give a copy of it to anyone (including you), but that Joe won't give you a copy directly, that it isn't open source? The definition of open source is about someone who possesses the source code having the right to distribute it, not whether anyone (including the original author or the owner of the copyright) is under an obligation to give it to anyone who asks. You're not confusing "open source" with the GPL, are you? The GPL can impose obligations to distribute, but "open source" does not. > If you can't get the > source unless you buy hardware and sign a license agreement, that is > certainly not open source. It wasn't the case that you could only get the source if you bought hardware and signed a license. Anyone who had the source code was allowed to give it to you, since it was in the public domain. Whether any particular party was willing to give it to you is irrelevant. In the past, I have personally released source code into the public domain. I happen to no longer distribute that particular source code. If you ask me for it, I will tell you that I am unwilling to provide a copy to you. Nevertheless, it is open source, as anyone that has it is allowed to give you a copy, if *they* choose to do so. It has nothing to do with who *you* choose to ask for it. >> Not true. Since there was no copyright, you could legally obtain a copy >> from anyone else that had one. > That is just conjecture and nothing more. No, it is not conjecture. There is no legally recognized natural right to a monopoly on a work; it is copyright law that grants a monopoly for a limited time. Absent the copyright, there is no monopoly. Since the IBM software was not copyrighted, anyone who had it could legally give you a copy, and IBM would have no recourse. This is true regardless of whether you could actually find someone willing to give you the copy. A party choosing not to exercise a right to distribute doesn't demonstrate that they didn't have a right. > There's no evidence anybody who > wasn't a paying customer obtained a copy. I don't think there is hard evidence either way, so that lack of evidence doesn't really support either of our arguments. Whether it was legal for someone to give you a copy, and whether they actually did give you a copy, are two completely different things. Even if no one actually gave you a copy, they had the legal right to do so. > That suggests to me there was an intent to protect the source and they > didn't know how. YMMV. It suggests that there was an intent to protect the manuals. It is *highly* speculative to conclude that there was an intent to protect the source code. However, it is also completely irrelevant since they didn't protect the source code. > It is in the public domain *now* because somebody (Rich Fochtman) received > explicit permission from IBM along with the archive tapes, and made them > available on a web site. Wrong. It is in the public domain because it is not copyrighted. The law at the time was that to be protected by copyright, works had to bear a copyright notice. There was a minor exception for works on which such a notice was accidentally omitted, and that exception required that an attempt be made to correct the omission, and there is no evidence that this was done. The law today still holds that works published before March 1, 1989, and not bearing a copyright notice, are not copyrighted. There is a new exception for works first published outside the U.S. before March 1, 1989, without a copyright notice, but which had copyright protection in the country of publication. It does not appear that the pre-unbundling IBM software is eligible for this exception. There are any number of reasons why Rich Fochtman may have asked IBM for permission. For instance, he might not have been sure that the code was in the public domain. By getting permission (even if it wasn't necessary), Rich was protecting himself in case the works turned out (for whatever reason) not to have originally been in the public domain. The fact that the request was made doesn't prove that the works weren't already in the public domain. There are any number of reasons why IBM may have granted such permission. IBM granting permission could not possibly make it *more* public domain than it already was. Beyond that, even if IBM had *denied* permission, it still would have been public domain. A work that is not copyrighted is in the public domain regardless of what the author has to say about it; it is a matter of law, not of anyone's opinion, request, or demand. > Since *at the time it was released* none of these > OS were posted anywhere and were shipped only to paying, licensed hardware > customers on tapes, it was not open source at the time. It most certainly *was* open source, and there is a simple proof: 1. The software (including source code) lacked copyright notices. 2. By U.S. law, due to the lack of copyright notices, the software (including source code) was not copyrighted. 3. By definition, since the software (including source code) was not copyrighted, it was in the public domain. 4. Source code that is in the public domain meets the definition of "open source" (regardless of whether any particular party is willing to give you a copy). Eric From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 18 17:09:23 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:09:23 -0700 Subject: NUL-terminated strings - Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9DE2C7.3090905@update.uu.se> References: <20111013060821.GA10942@Update.UU.SE>, <20111014142739.GA15351@Update.UU.SE>, <4E98FCB1.8070508@telegraphics.com.au> <4E98B7CC.19936.2DC9DCE@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9CB58E.4020406@telegraphics.com.au> <4E9DE2C7.3090905@update.uu.se> Message-ID: From: Pontus Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:34 PM > On 10/18/2011 10:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Yes, taken from the predecessor systems. The PDP numbering is consistent, >> a consistency lost in the 1970s. > Even PDP-12 ? Yes. The PDP-12 was introduced after the PDP-11. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 18 17:22:53 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:22:53 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E9DFC3D.1070409@brouhaha.com> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > When people wanted to port the IBM OS family to x86 they wrote Hercules to > emulate the hardware. The OS doesn't make sense on anything but System/360, > 370, 390, Z, etc. It was easier to port the hardware than the software. Rich Alderson wrote: > When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same thing. To which OS are you referring? AFAICT, the major OSes on POWER are: A/IX - native port OS/400 (later i5/OS, now IBM I) - For CISC AS/400 systems, MI is translated to IMPI (CISC) instructions - For POWER systems, MI is translated to POWER instructions - There is NO emulation of the IMPI (CISC) architecture Solaris - native port Linux - native port Did/does IBM support other operating systems on POWER? From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Oct 18 17:25:08 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:25:08 -0400 Subject: open FTP index Message-ID: On Tuesday 18 October 2011, Al wrote: > just stumbled upon this > http://www.mmnt.net/ > > this is interesting since afaik Google doesn't index anonymous ftp sites and > there is a site search. > > I see one of the trailing-edge sites is on there. In fact Googlebot is regularly scanning all my ftp sites quite regularly. But I would not classify as usefully return search information. There are several other bots out there (some of them russian, one of them may be mmnt) scanning ftp sites. Remember when archie did all this? (Or at least, tried to do all this.) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 18 17:25:21 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:25:21 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110182103.p9IL3BTt015558@floodgap.com> References: <201110182103.p9IL3BTt015558@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4E9DFCD1.2010009@brouhaha.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This just dawned on me: perhaps Rich was referring to AS/400 (System i). > That *does* run on POWER now. But not by emulating the original AS/400 CISC hardware. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 18 17:40:02 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:40:02 -0500 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: <201110172308.p9HN8EbC022980@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201110182252.p9IMqBLw063483@billy.ezwind.net> At 04:15 PM 1/18/2011, Tony Duell wrote: >So an interface which transfers data bit-serially over a pair of >differentially-driving lines is a parallel interface? (2 lines are >changing at once) Sounds like redundancy to me. >I think that if you're sending data one bit at a time, that's a serial >interface. ... A >bit-banged serial interface _is_ a serial interface, even if you're using >other lines on the same (parallel) port to do other things Reminds me of bits and baud. So if I'm sending two bits at a time over two wires, that's parallel? - John From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 17:56:29 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9C379F.32607.10D5CB9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org>, <4E9C379F.32607.10D5CB9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Oct 2011 at 16:53, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> I'm reasonably sure the Compaticard IV will handle 128-byte sectors. >> ISTR reading CP/M SD diskettes on mine. > > Oddly enough, I don't believe so. The internal operation of the > PC8477 is more in line with the Intel 82077 before Intel broke it by > adding tape support (i.e. run from the 82077AA-1 as fast as you can). > > Note that the problem is not 128-byte sectors per se, but rather 128- > byte sectors recorded in MFM. Even the NEC uPD 765 is seriously > broken in this respect. Ah. Sorry. I missed the 'MFM' part. In my mind when I hear "128-byte sectors" I think 'FM'. I know those work. Steve -- From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 18:16:56 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:16:56 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9C379F.32607.10D5CB9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl> <4E99BBC9.4090801@bitsavers.org> <4E9C379F.32607.10D5CB9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Note that the problem is not 128-byte sectors per se, but rather 128- > byte sectors recorded in MFM. ?Even the NEC uPD 765 is seriously > broken in this respect. > Is there any peculiar with the 128-byte / sector MFM format? Or is it more likely an edge case that probably should have worked in the controller but wasn?t tested until too late? Or was support for that format was intentionally dropped from the controller? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 18:33:44 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:33:44 +0100 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4 October 2011 21:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/04/2011 04:19 PM, Lance Lyon wrote: >> >> Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic proportions - >> and >> people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be >> permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything produced in >> the last 30 years. >> >> This post is a perfect example : >> >> "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular >> products have been the business standard for quite a few years now and a >> lot >> of roles are advertised that require the applicants to be proficient in >> their uses. > > ?"Business standard"...assuming that's even true It *is* true. > are you suggesting that > this is supposed to indicate a good product No, and he didn't say that. They are not clean, or elegant, or entirely reliable. But they do work and millions of businesses do trillions of dollars' worth of business using them. They /are/ fit for purpose. > or suggest that I should use > it? He's not suggesting that either. However, you cannot simply dismiss them as useless. They are not; their tens of millions of users refute that. > ?That's pretty silly, and awfully unprofessional. Frankly, Dave, no, *your* attitude is. > ?"Business people" love Microsoft because they think Microsoft and Bill > Gates are the same entity, and like to be associated with money and > financial success. Utter tosh. Businesspeople run MS because businesses run MS. Because MS' are the standard file formats, tools, because the staff you hire /will/ know MS, because the files you exchange with your clients and suppliers will be MS files carried on MS systems, and most of all, because the techies you hire will be MS techies. Why? Because MS techies are cheap and plentiful and all other kinds are scarce, hard to retain, tend to be prima donnas with their own strong views on how to run things, and they are extremely expensive into the deal. MS is cheap commodity software that runs on cheap commodity hardware and can be both used and maintained by cheap commodity staff. There /are/ no really credible alternatives any more. This is because of MS' decades of illegal anti-competitive manouvreing in the 1980s and 1990s, but it's too late to cry over that spilled milk now. > ?These people typically haven't an iota of technical > know-how, and they're NOT the people who should be telling others what tools > to use to do their jobs. Sadly, the vast majority of techies, from menials to directors, all know MS and nothing else now. Yes, that means they're inferior techies, but they are all you can get. >> Nor should users of the products be denigrated as useless or idiots >> because >> they use them - claiming such only proves that YOU are the foolish one. > > ?No. ?Nowhere was it suggested that Outlook and Word are bad because they're > somehow "modern". ?It was suggested that Outlook and Word are bad because, > well, they ARE. ?And frankly, anyone with so much as a whit of technical > experience or know-how KNOWS that. Outlook is only half the solution. It's part of a system, and the other half is Exchange. For all its faults, nothing else does what Exchange does and nothing ever has. It is not an email server. It is a groupware and workflow server. It does *push* delivery, it does shared calendaring and shared company directories, and whereas there are lots of other fine email servers out there and a handful of calendaring or group-directory servers, they're single-function tools which have to be assembled by skilful experts, and those experts are very very expensive, and you're utterly dependent on them. Get rid of one, you're screwed, because any replacement will immediately suggest ripping out his predecessor's solution and implementing his own. As for Word - actually, for all its faults and weirdnesses, Word was a very fine high-end wordprocessor until the Fluent interface came in and ruined it. Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever need. Powerpoint? Workable. Access? Pile of crap. But Approach died and Filemaker never really broke out on Windows. Outlook is the crown jewel, though. I hate it but it is bloody good at what it does. Nightmare when it fails, but if you're on an Exchange server, it hardly matters. > ?Like it or not, computers are technical tools. ?You don't see true > hard-core technical people using Outlook or Word, EVER. Utterly untrue. Total bollocks, in fact. I can point to hundreds I know or have worked with personally in the last 5y alone. > ?There's a reason > for that. No there isn't, because it's not the case. > ?Trust the opinions of people who actually know how this stuff > works and what it's supposed to do, not some plastic-haired idiot out on the > golf course who will buy anything that's advertised in BusinessWeek > magazine. Idiots may have been how MS got established, although undercutting the competition and shrewdly forcing upgrades and so on have more to do with it. But not now. >> These are the tools of the trade now (and despite the haters who seem to >> think they are "rubbish") are rather powerful ones - especially Outlook. > > ?Heh. ?Good thing that's a fantasy, otherwise the world would be in an even > worse situation than it already is. You don't seem to have any idea of how the real world of business actually operates, Dave. I'm sorry, but both bigotry and utterly unrealistic beliefs shine out of this. > ?This smacks of the exact same credibility-smashing crap that Richard spewed > a few hours ago when he suggested that anyone who doesn't use Outlook is an > "asshole". That's just crap, actually, I agree. Dave, you have to try to get a handle on the hatred. I too hate Microsoft and the majority of its products, I hate the illegal tactics that it's used to gain its monopoly position and much more besides. I prefer Macs, but I'm not too happy about that company's tactics and commercial methods either. So I run Linux, but it sucks. Ubuntu sucks less than any other Linux, and Linux sucks less than any other Unix I've ever seen, but they're still crap. I am nostalgic for the performance and responsiveness of Acorn RISC OS and the way BeOS felt like it liberated the power of x86 PCs, for the command line flexibility of VMS, for the simplicity of MS-DOS, for the completeness of the classic Mac OS Finder. But they're all gone. However, I have to earn a living, and, conservatively, 98% of the business world revolves around MS and nothing but MS. A few big back-end systems run Oracle and things, but the front-ends are /all/ MS. When MS sells 20,000 licences, it's a small deal. Nothing worth reporting. When SUSE sells 20,000 licences, it's front-page news in the IT press all over the world. And most of those sales have gone back within a year or two, sadly. Linux in business is bodged-together servers that the bosses don't know about and people's ad hoc recovery disks, monitoring boxes and so on. Even the commercial-grade routers don't run it - that's home stuff. Macs are stuck in a niche and while they are growing that's in large part because modern Macs can run Windows and Windows apps in a VM. The desktop and laptop world, the corporare world, is a Microsoft world. Everything else amounts for 5-10%, if that, on a good day with a following wind. It's shitty and it was achieved illegally but *it is the case* and no amount of shouting invective will change that. Gates is a lying, cheating, scheming thief who is buying himself a good name by giving away his obscenely-massive ill-gotten gains to charity. He hasn't even got the imagination of a Paul Allen or Elon Musk, who do good, creative things with their money. He's a nasty venal small-minded little nerd who stabbed in the back every business that came close to him and climbed high on the dead bodies. But he is still atop that mound. Anyone who came close is a bleeding corpse under his feet - Netscape, Sun, WordPerfect, Lotus, even mighty IBM's PC hardware and software businesses. Oracle and Apple have only lived by staying the hell out of the way, and Microsoft is still shooting big guns at both of them. There is no point denying it. You can help it, but not by calling people liars and idiots, but by in a measured and friendly and supportive fashion showing them how they can use non-Microsoft tools to their advantage and save time and money in so doing. But in business, it's almost a lost cause. Businesses don't care how much it costs - it's a fraction of the staff costs, and non-MS staff are vastly expensive. Anything has to be instantly familiar to MS-only staff and it has to be deployable off ActiveDirectory using a Group Policy and stable and supported for the lifetime of the hardware, which you just can't do with Mozilla anything or Chrome or OpenOffice or LibreOffice or *any* of the rival tools. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 18:51:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:51:53 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9C379F.32607.10D5CB9@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E9DAEA9.21042.1C03F77@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 16:16, Glen Slick wrote: > Is there any peculiar with the 128-byte / sector MFM format? Or is it > more likely an edge case that probably should have worked in the > controller but wasn?t tested until too late? Or was support for that > format was intentionally dropped from the controller? NEC never claimed that 128-byte MFM sectors would work. Their datasheets don't list it--and anyone who's tried to read or write a 128-byte MFM sector using the 765 got some eye-opening results--the first 80 (decimal) bytes would be transfered, but not the remainder. Since the reference standard for MFM on 8" disks was IBM System/32 (53FD) used 256-byte sectors, it might be that NEC didn't think that the 128-byte MFM type would ever be used. In theory, it's possible write sectors smaller than 128 bytes, but I've never run into a system that actually did that. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 18 18:56:36 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:56:36 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/18/11 8:35 AM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I went the easy way and just wired up a WD1772 on an ISA prototype >>> board. It takes very little additonal circuitry as data separator, >>> etc. are built onto the chip. >> >> Is it too late to start marketing accessory boards for 5150? >> > The guys making the XT-IDE controller do ok, but that's an open source > hardware project, so there's not a whole lot of marketing going on. :) > (It's a very cool board though - booting a 5160 off of a CF card is very > fast) > > g. With the way old HDD's are slowly failing it would be cool to have a CF/IDE adapter that acts like the SASI <-> ST506 interface boards (and related ones) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 19:18:05 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 01:18:05 +0100 Subject: TenFourFox is awesome - Re: Portable assembler? - Re: Undefined behaviour in C - Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E99AA1D.4010901@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110142155.p9ELtMHI013240@floodgap.com> <4E99AA1D.4010901@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 15 October 2011 16:43, Toby Thain wrote: > On 14/10/11 5:55 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> >>> ? The latest project I've been working on (which was just announced [1]) >>> was >>> done in C, and I have a hard time considering it an "embedded" system, >>> ... >> >> Right now as we speak I'm writing a POWER macroassembler for Mozilla's >> JavaScript interpreter, which turns bytecodes into one:many POWER assembly >> instructions. I'm modelling the memory access on SPARC and the ALU work on >> ARM. It's going to be a curious hybrid when I'm finished (about 33%). > > Are you writing this up anywhere? Sounds interesting. > > TenFourFox* is awesome, by the way. Seconded. Since I've revived my Mac mini G4 for occasional duties, 10.4Fx is a lifesaver, under either 10.4 or 10.5. Thanks, Cameron! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Oct 18 19:34:27 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:34:27 -0400 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9E1B13.3040609@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >> Funny, this list is about classic computing but some people don't >> appreciate the old timers who are classics. For me having you guys (ok, >> Dave is a youngin') around is the best part of this list. There is an >> important period in computing before I got started in the late 1970s >> that I >> don't know enough about, and I enjoy hearing comments from the guys who >> were there. > > I'm old enough to appreciate being called a youngin' once in a > while. ;) I'm 42, been computing since I was ~12, doing it for money > since I was ~14. Don't paint me as too much of a newbie; I used most > of what we talk about on this list at work when it was modern! ;) I am probably close to being one of the oldest on this list at 73 years old, so I can appreciate your comment - mine would be the same. I started using an IBM650 in 1960 when I was 22 years old. The PDP-11 arrived in my career in the mid 1970s and I have been using it on and off (mostly on) ever since, mostly with RT-11. I find it interesting that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems supported 4 MB of memory whereas the STAR100 (early 19702s from CDC) had much less physical memory since core was still so expensive even though the address size was 48 bits as opposed to 16 bits on the PDP-11. Jerome Fine From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 18 19:44:29 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:44:29 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9DAEA9.21042.1C03F77@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9C379F.32607.10D5CB9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9DAEA9.21042.1C03F77@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9E1D6D.8050806@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > NEC never claimed that 128-byte MFM sectors would work. Their > datasheets don't list it--and anyone who's tried to read or write a > 128-byte MFM sector using the 765 got some eye-opening results--the > first 80 (decimal) bytes would be transfered, but not the remainder. Even though IBM didn't specify 128 bytes for FM, I am rather surprised that an FDC that can handle length code 00 properly in MFM mode wouldn't in FM mode. I can't really imagine what sort of logic design would lead to that. Interpreting the 00 length code as 80 bytes is especially strange, and that makes me wonder if they didn't intentionally do that in order to be compatible with some proprietary system. > In theory, it's possible write sectors smaller than 128 bytes, but > I've never run into a system that actually did that. There's no obvious way to do such a thing as a (somewhat-) compatible extension of the standard formats. The ID field of a sector contains a "physical record length" byte, and the FDC uses the value there to determine how many data bytes to transfer before the CRC. The values IBM defined are: 00 - 128 bytes (FM only) 01 - 256 bytes 02 - 512 bytes 03 - 1024 bytes (MFM only) There are non-IBM formats using the obvious extension: 04 - 2048 bytes 05 - 4096 bytes I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some FDC chips didn't work properly with those. In particular, I would expect some FDCs to use only the low two bits of the byte, and interpret 04 and 05 as meaning 128 and 256 bytes, respectively. However, I have not tried this. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 19:51:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:51:40 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hope you're wearing your asbestos skivvies. You've misidentified the causality graph here. I don't say Microsoft sucks because I dislike it, I dislike it because it sucks. When they create a viable product, I will use it, recommend it, and sell it. In the past, when they did, I did. I am getting a little tired of having to explain that to people who snap and snarl without listening first. You also seem to think that I am somehow fantasizing and/or imagining how things work in this industry, rather than actually working here and getting paid for my expertise. While there are plenty of people on this list for whom that's true, as this list is a community of hobbyists, I assure you that's not the case here. I mean, shit, you act like you think I've never seen the inside of an office before, any office, least of all a technical one. That's ironic, because while it's rather far from the truth, it sure is how YOU come off. When someone so completely jumps to a conclusion about what motivates my statements, then tries to "correct" me based on those incorrect assumptions with amateurish fanboy assertions and "I will sound respectable if I say what is expected of me from squarely inside the box as an obedient passenger of the industry" logic, it's killfile time. You join the ranks of the scrapper who thinks he knows everything about how the data processing world works, the starry-eyed Microsoft apologist who worships at Gates' feet, and the newbie who thinks his magazine-ad-based knowledge trumps having actually been there. And of course you know I can't let this part go. You assert that my attitude is "unprofessional" because I don't simply obey the magazine ads or the nontechnical people making technical decisions, and instead get paid to make technical recommendations for technical things based on real technical observations and technical experience? That's just absurd. In fact, that's the very ESSENCE of professionalism. Anything less is fanboy ass-kissing. I've been a good plumber for as long as you've been breathing, and you're trying to tell me what kind of pipes the world uses. Ha! *plonk* -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 4 October 2011 21:48, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/04/2011 04:19 PM, Lance Lyon wrote: >>> >>> Of late the negativity in CCTALK has reached somewhat epic proportions - >>> and >>> people are coming across in a rather poor light. Many posters seem to be >>> permanently stuck in the stone age and appear to hate anything produced in >>> the last 30 years. >>> >>> This post is a perfect example : >>> >>> "Outhouse" and "Weird" - hate to tell you but both of those particular >>> products have been the business standard for quite a few years now and a >>> lot >>> of roles are advertised that require the applicants to be proficient in >>> their uses. >> >> "Business standard"...assuming that's even true > > It *is* true. > >> are you suggesting that >> this is supposed to indicate a good product > > No, and he didn't say that. They are not clean, or elegant, or > entirely reliable. But they do work and millions of businesses do > trillions of dollars' worth of business using them. They /are/ fit for > purpose. > >> or suggest that I should use >> it? > > He's not suggesting that either. However, you cannot simply dismiss > them as useless. They are not; their tens of millions of users refute > that. > >> That's pretty silly, and awfully unprofessional. > > Frankly, Dave, no, *your* attitude is. > >> "Business people" love Microsoft because they think Microsoft and Bill >> Gates are the same entity, and like to be associated with money and >> financial success. > > Utter tosh. Businesspeople run MS because businesses run MS. Because > MS' are the standard file formats, tools, because the staff you hire > /will/ know MS, because the files you exchange with your clients and > suppliers will be MS files carried on MS systems, and most of all, > because the techies you hire will be MS techies. Why? Because MS > techies are cheap and plentiful and all other kinds are scarce, hard > to retain, tend to be prima donnas with their own strong views on how > to run things, and they are extremely expensive into the deal. > > MS is cheap commodity software that runs on cheap commodity hardware > and can be both used and maintained by cheap commodity staff. > > There /are/ no really credible alternatives any more. > > This is because of MS' decades of illegal anti-competitive manouvreing > in the 1980s and 1990s, but it's too late to cry over that spilled > milk now. > > >> These people typically haven't an iota of technical >> know-how, and they're NOT the people who should be telling others what tools >> to use to do their jobs. > > Sadly, the vast majority of techies, from menials to directors, all > know MS and nothing else now. Yes, that means they're inferior > techies, but they are all you can get. > >>> Nor should users of the products be denigrated as useless or idiots >>> because >>> they use them - claiming such only proves that YOU are the foolish one. >> >> No. Nowhere was it suggested that Outlook and Word are bad because they're >> somehow "modern". It was suggested that Outlook and Word are bad because, >> well, they ARE. And frankly, anyone with so much as a whit of technical >> experience or know-how KNOWS that. > > Outlook is only half the solution. It's part of a system, and the > other half is Exchange. > > For all its faults, nothing else does what Exchange does and nothing > ever has. It is not an email server. It is a groupware and workflow > server. It does *push* delivery, it does shared calendaring and shared > company directories, and whereas there are lots of other fine email > servers out there and a handful of calendaring or group-directory > servers, they're single-function tools which have to be assembled by > skilful experts, and those experts are very very expensive, and you're > utterly dependent on them. Get rid of one, you're screwed, because any > replacement will immediately suggest ripping out his predecessor's > solution and implementing his own. > > As for Word - actually, for all its faults and weirdnesses, Word was a > very fine high-end wordprocessor until the Fluent interface came in > and ruined it. > > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever > need. > > Powerpoint? Workable. > > Access? Pile of crap. But Approach died and Filemaker never really > broke out on Windows. > > Outlook is the crown jewel, though. I hate it but it is bloody good at > what it does. Nightmare when it fails, but if you're on an Exchange > server, it hardly matters. > >> Like it or not, computers are technical tools. You don't see true >> hard-core technical people using Outlook or Word, EVER. > > Utterly untrue. Total bollocks, in fact. I can point to hundreds I > know or have worked with personally in the last 5y alone. > > >> There's a reason >> for that. > > No there isn't, because it's not the case. > >> Trust the opinions of people who actually know how this stuff >> works and what it's supposed to do, not some plastic-haired idiot out on the >> golf course who will buy anything that's advertised in BusinessWeek >> magazine. > > Idiots may have been how MS got established, although undercutting the > competition and shrewdly forcing upgrades and so on have more to do > with it. > > But not now. > >>> These are the tools of the trade now (and despite the haters who seem to >>> think they are "rubbish") are rather powerful ones - especially Outlook. >> >> Heh. Good thing that's a fantasy, otherwise the world would be in an even >> worse situation than it already is. > > You don't seem to have any idea of how the real world of business > actually operates, Dave. I'm sorry, but both bigotry and utterly > unrealistic beliefs shine out of this. > >> This smacks of the exact same credibility-smashing crap that Richard spewed >> a few hours ago when he suggested that anyone who doesn't use Outlook is an >> "asshole". > > That's just crap, actually, I agree. > > Dave, you have to try to get a handle on the hatred. I too hate > Microsoft and the majority of its products, I hate the illegal tactics > that it's used to gain its monopoly position and much more besides. I > prefer Macs, but I'm not too happy about that company's tactics and > commercial methods either. So I run Linux, but it sucks. Ubuntu sucks > less than any other Linux, and Linux sucks less than any other Unix > I've ever seen, but they're still crap. > > I am nostalgic for the performance and responsiveness of Acorn RISC OS > and the way BeOS felt like it liberated the power of x86 PCs, for the > command line flexibility of VMS, for the simplicity of MS-DOS, for the > completeness of the classic Mac OS Finder. But they're all gone. > > However, I have to earn a living, and, conservatively, 98% of the > business world revolves around MS and nothing but MS. A few big > back-end systems run Oracle and things, but the front-ends are /all/ > MS. > > When MS sells 20,000 licences, it's a small deal. Nothing worth reporting. > > When SUSE sells 20,000 licences, it's front-page news in the IT press > all over the world. And most of those sales have gone back within a > year or two, sadly. > > Linux in business is bodged-together servers that the bosses don't > know about and people's ad hoc recovery disks, monitoring boxes and so > on. Even the commercial-grade routers don't run it - that's home > stuff. > > Macs are stuck in a niche and while they are growing that's in large > part because modern Macs can run Windows and Windows apps in a VM. > > The desktop and laptop world, the corporare world, is a Microsoft > world. Everything else amounts for 5-10%, if that, on a good day with > a following wind. > > It's shitty and it was achieved illegally but *it is the case* and no > amount of shouting invective will change that. > > Gates is a lying, cheating, scheming thief who is buying himself a > good name by giving away his obscenely-massive ill-gotten gains to > charity. He hasn't even got the imagination of a Paul Allen or Elon > Musk, who do good, creative things with their money. He's a nasty > venal small-minded little nerd who stabbed in the back every business > that came close to him and climbed high on the dead bodies. > > But he is still atop that mound. Anyone who came close is a bleeding > corpse under his feet - Netscape, Sun, WordPerfect, Lotus, even mighty > IBM's PC hardware and software businesses. > > Oracle and Apple have only lived by staying the hell out of the way, > and Microsoft is still shooting big guns at both of them. > > There is no point denying it. > > You can help it, but not by calling people liars and idiots, but by in > a measured and friendly and supportive fashion showing them how they > can use non-Microsoft tools to their advantage and save time and money > in so doing. > > But in business, it's almost a lost cause. Businesses don't care how > much it costs - it's a fraction of the staff costs, and non-MS staff > are vastly expensive. Anything has to be instantly familiar to MS-only > staff and it has to be deployable off ActiveDirectory using a Group > Policy and stable and supported for the lifetime of the hardware, > which you just can't do with Mozilla anything or Chrome or OpenOffice > or LibreOffice or *any* of the rival tools. > > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 18 20:02:57 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:02:57 -0700 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: <4E9E1B13.3040609@compsys.to> References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> <4E9E1B13.3040609@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4E9E21C1.2090103@brouhaha.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I find it interesting that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems supported > 4 MB of memory whereas [...] I find that statement baffling, as the first PDP-11 to support 4088KB of memory wasn't introduced until 1975, five years after the introduction of the PDP-11. I would say that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems supported 56KB, and slightly less young systems supported 248KB. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 18 20:14:52 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp calculators Message-ID: I'm about to get something to replace my old TI85 I had from high school. Lots of you here rave about the HP's offerings. Indeed, I wanted to get, but couldn't afford an HP48g when they were new. I don't have much need for graphing now, but I do need scientific calculation. The HP35s seems good for that. Or should I just jump in and get the HP50g? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 20:27:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:27:59 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2011, at 9:14 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm about to get something to replace my old TI85 I had from high school. Lots of you here rave about the HP's offerings. Indeed, I wanted to get, but couldn't afford an HP48g when they were new. I don't have much need for graphing now, but I do need scientific calculation. The HP35s seems good for that. Or should I just jump in and get the HP50g? If you'd be ok with a used calculator, I tell ya, I just couldn't love a calculator more than my HP28S. I use it pretty much all the time. If you'd prefer a one-piece design, the 48SX and successors are a pleasure to use, even if the keys are a bit too overloaded with alternate functions. Honestly I'd recommend going for one of those models. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From scott at kevill.com Tue Oct 18 21:02:44 2011 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:02:44 +0800 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9E1D6D.8050806@brouhaha.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9C379F.32607.10D5CB9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9DAEA9.21042.1C03F77@cclist.sydex.com> <4E9E1D6D.8050806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <974695F3-D0DA-427E-B342-98DA7DDA137E@kevill.com> On 19/10/2011, at 8:44 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > There's no obvious way to do such a thing as a (somewhat-) compatible extension of the standard formats. The ID field of a sector contains a "physical record length" byte, and the FDC uses the value there to determine how many data bytes to transfer before the CRC. The values IBM defined are: > > 00 - 128 bytes (FM only) > 01 - 256 bytes > 02 - 512 bytes > 03 - 1024 bytes (MFM only) > > There are non-IBM formats using the obvious extension: > > 04 - 2048 bytes > 05 - 4096 bytes > > I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some FDC chips didn't work properly with those. In particular, I would expect some FDCs to use only the low two bits of the byte, and interpret 04 and 05 as meaning 128 and 256 bytes, respectively. However, I have not tried this. It's all very messy for interoperability. You can't tell from the ID field how long the sector is because of the different encodings used for the sector length. In some Western Digital FDCs, bit 3 of the Read Sector / Write Sector command specified which encoding to use, which means the only way you can really figure this out is to do a Read Track and analyse the bytes, or better still, read the raw bits from the drive. eg. WD1771: (FM only) b=0: Read Command = 1 0 0 x 0 x 0 0 01 - 16 bytes 02 - 32 bytes 03 - 48 bytes 04 - 64 bytes .. .. FF - 4080 bytes 00 - 4096 bytes b=1: Read Command = 1 0 0 x 1 x 0 0 "IBM Format" 00 - 128 bytes 01 - 256 bytes 02 - 512 bytes 03 - 1024 bytes WD1791,1792,1793,1794 Read Command = 1 0 0 x x x x 0 "IBM Format" 00 - 128 bytes 01 - 256 bytes 02 - 512 bytes 03 - 1024 bytes WD1795,1797 b=0: Read Command = 1 0 0 x 0 x x 0 00 - 256 bytes 01 - 512 bytes 02 - 1024 bytes 03 - 128 bytes b=1: Read Command = 1 0 0 x 1 x x 0 "IBM Format" 00 - 128 bytes 01 - 256 bytes 02 - 512 bytes 03 - 1024 bytes Scott. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 21:05:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 19:05:12 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9E1D6D.8050806@brouhaha.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9DAEA9.21042.1C03F77@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9E1D6D.8050806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9DCDE8.13300.23A4B1E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 17:44, Eric Smith wrote: > Even though IBM didn't specify 128 bytes for FM, I assume that you mean "MFM" (the 3740 format is 128 bytes FM and for that matter the 53FD format is 128 FM on the first track. I am rather surprised > I can't really imagine what sort of logic design > would lead to that. Interpreting the 00 length code as 80 bytes is > especially strange, and that makes me wonder if they didn't > intentionally do that in order to be compatible with some proprietary > system. Hey, I didn't design the darned thing. :) > There's no obvious way to do such a thing as a (somewhat-) compatible > extension of the standard formats. The ID field of a sector contains > a "physical record length" byte, and the FDC uses the value there to > determine how many data bytes to transfer before the CRC. The values > IBM defined are: > > 00 - 128 bytes (FM only) > 01 - 256 bytes > 02 - 512 bytes > 03 - 1024 bytes (MFM only) Take a look at the WD1771 data sheet, "Non IBM Formats" that states in part: "Non-IBM formats are very similar to IBM formats except a different algorithm is used to ascertain the sector length from the sector length field in the ID field. This permits a wide range of sector lengths from 16 to 4096 bytes..." In fact, when sending read or write commands to the 765, it's customary to specify DTL in the command as 80 hex for 128-byte sectors. For 256 byte sectors and up, DTL is 00. For the meaning of DTL, read "When the value of N is 00, DTL stands for the number of bytes users are going to read or write into the sector." Whether or not this was intended for handling non-standard sector length is open to speculation. It's worth observing that when the WD 17/27 chips ruled the world, many, if not most systems were not IBM-conforming, choosing to leave out the IAM from their formats. This caused no end to problems when systems with the old 8272 or 765 tried to read such disks, because the NEC design originally had a very long "VCO sync" blind spot after the index. The "A" parts pretty much halved that. But the early 5150 systems used the old 8272 , which created a bit of a problem. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Oct 18 21:08:59 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 19:08:59 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> On 10/18/2011 6:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 18, 2011, at 9:14 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> I'm about to get something to replace my old TI85 I had from high school. Lots of you here rave about the HP's offerings. Indeed, I wanted to get, but couldn't afford an HP48g when they were new. I don't have much need for graphing now, but I do need scientific calculation. The HP35s seems good for that. Or should I just jump in and get the HP50g? > If you'd be ok with a used calculator, I tell ya, I just couldn't love a calculator more than my HP28S. I use it pretty much all the time. > > If you'd prefer a one-piece design, the 48SX and successors are a pleasure to use, even if the keys are a bit too overloaded with alternate functions. > > Honestly I'd recommend going for one of those models. I love the 28 series (it's a great form factor sadly abandoned), but the lack of I/O options for backup/restore of programs is kind of annoying. And N-cells are more expensive than AAA's :). I do have a 50G, and I find it to be pretty nice. The build quality is good (not as good as the good old days) and the key-click is *almost* right. But then again, a used HP 48-SX/GX shouldn't run you too much either -- probably about the same as a new 50G. And if you want a nice used calc of the non-graphing variety, the HP-41 series are lovely calculators and you can find a nice used one for about the same price. (I'm basing this on current eBay prices, your mileage may vary.) - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 21:24:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:24:56 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2011 10:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I love the 28 series (it's a great form factor sadly abandoned), but the > lack of I/O options for backup/restore of programs is kind of annoying. > And N-cells are more expensive than AAA's :). Agreed on all points. Yeah I wish they hadn't gone with N cells, sometimes it's even a pain just to find them. Were AAAs around when the original 28C came out? The kermit protocol in the 48 family sure is handy, even if you do need a weird cable to make use of it. > I do have a 50G, and I find it to be pretty nice. The build quality is > good (not as good as the good old days) and the key-click is *almost* > right. When did the build quality start to drop? I have a 35S, which is great but the build quality isn't even close to real HP. It also chews through batteries like there's no tomorrow. (2x CR2032) The next most recent one I have is a 48SX, which is very nicely built, so it seems to me the decline happened somewhere in between. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 22:16:35 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:16:35 +0100 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 19 October 2011 01:51, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Hope you're wearing your asbestos skivvies. Flame away if you like, but bear in mind that it makes you look stupid and seem immature. > ?You've misidentified the causality graph here. ?I don't say Microsoft sucks because I dislike it, I dislike it because it sucks. ?When they create a viable product, I will use it, recommend it, and sell it. ?In the past, when they did, I did. ?I am getting a little tired of having to explain that to people who snap and snarl without listening first. *I* dislike it because it sucks, too. Our opinions have little bearing on the continents-full of people using it, though. > ?You also seem to think that I am somehow fantasizing and/or imagining how things work in this industry, rather than actually working here and getting paid for my expertise. ?While there are plenty of people on this list for whom that's true, as this list is a community of hobbyists, I assure you that's not the case here. I work in the field every day and have watched the rise of MICROS~1 since my getting into the industry in 1988; before that, I watched from the sidelines from around the time of the introduction of the IBM PC, which is, coincidentally, about the time I got interested in computers and computing. > ?I mean, shit, you act like you think I've never seen the inside of an office before, any office, least of all a technical one. ?That's ironic, because while it's rather far from the truth, it sure is how YOU come off. [Shrug] No skin off my nose, but I'm working in the business computing world still and I know what it's like. You don't seem to. > ?When someone so completely jumps to a conclusion about what motivates my statements, then tries to "correct" me based on those incorrect assumptions with amateurish fanboy assertions and "I will sound respectable if I say what is expected of me from squarely inside the box as an obedient passenger of the industry" logic, it's killfile time. ?You join the ranks of the scrapper who thinks he knows everything about how the data processing world works, the starry-eyed Microsoft apologist who worships at Gates' feet, and the newbie who thinks his magazine-ad-based knowledge trumps having actually been there. Great way to grow and learn, that. Block out anyone who corrects you. Let us know how you get on with that, won't you? > ?And of course you know I can't let this part go. ?You assert that my attitude is "unprofessional" because I don't simply obey the magazine ads or the nontechnical people making technical decisions, and instead get paid to make technical recommendations for technical things based on real technical observations and technical experience? ?That's just absurd. No, not at all. I assert that it's unprofessional to go around calling people arseholes and liars and idiots. Or swearing all the time. Or claiming that tools used by more people than live in your entire country are useless rubbish. Or claiming that the former richest corporation in the world, owned and run by the former richest man in the world, are incompetents. > ?In fact, that's the very ESSENCE of professionalism. ?Anything less is fanboy ass-kissing. ?I've been a good plumber for as long as you've been breathing, and you're trying to tell me what kind of pipes the world uses. ?Ha! ?*plonk* So tell me, top-quoting boy, how do you feel this enhances your reputation for professionalism, skill and knowledge? :?) I'm not offended and it doesn't really matter to me if you read this or don't, but man, you really need to "take a chill pill" and calm down and learn to accept what you can't change. You change people's minds by showing them that you understand them and then gradually leading them in the direction of better tools, methods and practices, not by shouting at them and calling them idiots. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Oct 18 22:29:26 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:29:26 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> On 10/18/2011 7:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/18/2011 10:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> I do have a 50G, and I find it to be pretty nice. The build quality is >> good (not as good as the good old days) and the key-click is *almost* >> right. > > When did the build quality start to drop? I have a 35S, which is > great but the build quality isn't even close to real HP. It also > chews through batteries like there's no tomorrow. (2x CR2032) The > next most recent one I have is a 48SX, which is very nicely built, so > it seems to me the decline happened somewhere in between. > > -Dave > That's a good question. My dad teaches Math at a local community college and the Math department at said college always seemed to get ahold of at least one example of most of the graphing calculators that came out in the late 80s through the mid 90s, from the Casio FX-7000G on. As a result I got to play with most of them :). The build quality of the HP-48SX was great, as was the GX (used that one through college and it still works, though alas the LCD has started to "leak"). I recall the 38G (1995) as being well built physically but a poorly executed idea software-wise (it was HP trying to take on TI in the high school-level education department and failing miserably). The HP 49G (1999) was a real dog and I don't think things have been the same since, though the HP50 is a marked improvement (and the 35S is pretty nice in comparison as well.) - Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 18 23:05:36 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > When did the build quality start to drop? I have a 35S, which is great but > the build quality isn't even close to real HP. It also chews through > batteries like there's no tomorrow. (2x CR2032) The next most recent one I > have is a 48SX, which is very nicely built, so it seems to me the decline > happened somewhere in between. How long do you go between battery changes on the 35s? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 18 23:10:21 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:10:21 -0700 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: <4E9E21C1.2090103@brouhaha.com> References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> <4E9E1B13.3040609@compsys.to> <4E9E21C1.2090103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:03 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: help me get off this list > > Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I find it interesting that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems > supported > > 4 MB of memory whereas [...] > > I find that statement baffling, as the first PDP-11 to support 4088KB of > memory wasn't introduced until 1975, five years after the introduction > of the PDP-11. I would say that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems > supported 56KB, and slightly less young systems supported 248KB. > You must reverse yourself, grasshopper. The "youngest" system would be the most recent, 11/8x or /9x. The oldest is, of course, the 11/20. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 23:10:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:10:39 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9E4DBF.4060701@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2011 11:16 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Flame away if you like, but bear in mind that it makes you look > stupid and seem immature. Maybe even as stupid and immature as calling anyone who disagrees with you "unprofessional". Don't start a fight and not expect to...well, get a fight. >> You've misidentified the causality graph here. I don't say >> Microsoft sucks because I dislike it, I dislike it because it >> sucks. When they create a viable product, I will use it, recommend >> it, and sell it. In the past, when they did, I did. I am getting >> a little tired of having to explain that to people who snap and >> snarl without listening first. > > *I* dislike it because it sucks, too. Our opinions have little > bearing on the continents-full of people using it, though. Let's see. I don't use it, nobody I know uses it, nobody I work for now uses it, nobody I've ever worked for (save for a few suits who raped the companies) has used it... >> You also seem to think that I am somehow fantasizing and/or >> imagining how things work in this industry, rather than actually >> working here and getting paid for my expertise. While there are >> plenty of people on this list for whom that's true, as this list is >> a community of hobbyists, I assure you that's not the case here. > > I work in the field every day and have watched the rise of MICROS~1 > since my getting into the industry in 1988; before that, I watched > from the sidelines from around the time of the introduction of the > IBM PC, which is, coincidentally, about the time I got interested in > computers and computing. Then I've been involved in it for a bit longer than you have, from the CP/M days, probably not enough of a difference to be particularly meaningful. >> I mean, shit, you act like you think I've never seen the inside of >> an office before, any office, least of all a technical one. That's >> ironic, because while it's rather far from the truth, it sure is >> how YOU come off. > > [Shrug] No skin off my nose, but I'm working in the business > computing world still and I know what it's like. You don't seem to. Ah-HA. This may explain the difference in what we see. I assume that by "business computing" you mean bunches of suits shuffling papers around, making faces at each other across conference tables, all while randomly mentioning products like "Excel" and names like "Bloomberg" and "Kiewit" to try to make themselves sound cool. Please note well that, while I do firmly believe that you're an asshole of epic proportions, what I said in the previous paragraph is not intended to disparage YOU in any way, shape, or form. Anyway, I work exclusively in technical computing. Always have. Now I'm thinking that this may be a "different worlds" kind of thing. So my beef with you, then, wouldn't be a matter of "this prick doesn't know what he's talking about", but more a matter of "this prick thinks the whole data processing world is exactly like the little corner of it that HE works in". (and I might, maybe, just be guilty of the same thing!) My view of that side of "computing" is that it's common to tolerate crappy tools. I don't understand that mindset, but then, I'm very intolerant of crappy tools > Great way to grow and learn, that. Block out anyone who corrects > you. Let us know how you get on with that, won't you? Likewise. I haven't kill-filed you yet, I felt bad after flaming you so hard. I felt even worse after coming to the realization that I started typing about in the above paragraph. I still think you're an asshole, but I think we may be talking about two very different parts of the world. IF that's the case, then we were both wrong to make the assertions we made. Whether you choose to accept it or not, much of the technical world that *I* work in doesn't use Windows, and never really has. The people that did are dropping it left and right, as tools become available for non-proprietary OSs. I got a new (awesome) job about two weeks ago at a company that develops automation and embedded systems stuff, and in the entire company there is precisely ONE computer running Windows...and that one will likely be ditched before long. >> And of course you know I can't let this part go. You assert that >> my attitude is "unprofessional" because I don't simply obey the >> magazine ads or the nontechnical people making technical decisions, >> and instead get paid to make technical recommendations for >> technical things based on real technical observations and technical >> experience? That's just absurd. > > No, not at all. I assert that it's unprofessional to go around > calling people arseholes and liars and idiots. I assert that it's unprofessional (but not commonly viewed as such) to NOT tell people when they're being idiots. > Or swearing all the time. Oh good heavens. > Or claiming that tools used by more people than live in your > entire country are useless rubbish. Those particular tools ARE. And, really? 350 MILLION people run Windows? Did you get that straight from Microsoft? One other interesting thing is your assertion that non-Windows people tend to be "prima donna" types. I agree with this, but once again you got the causality relationship wrong. People who are overly anal about quality, "right tool for the job", etc are often viewed as prima donnas. (and rightfully so!) For THAT VERY REASON, they tend not to run Windows. > Or claiming that the former > richest corporation in the world, owned and run by the former richest > man in the world, are incompetents. Wait, you've GOT to be an American. Are you really claiming that having money implies technical competence, or otherwise defines the intrinsic value of a person or company in other than financial terms? Seriously? So all someone has to do to be competent in your eyes is go out and rob a bank, no matter how stupid they may be? You said yourself that company is a bunch of crooks. (paraphrased) >> In fact, that's the very ESSENCE of professionalism. Anything less >> is fanboy ass-kissing. I've been a good plumber for as long as >> you've been breathing, and you're trying to tell me what kind of >> pipes the world uses. Ha! *plonk* > > So tell me, top-quoting boy, how do you feel this enhances your > reputation for professionalism, skill and knowledge? :?) In this crowd of mostly people who don't work in this industry? I couldn't care less. Nobody here is hiring. (well, almost nobody, but I'm not moving again! ;)) > I'm not offended and it doesn't really matter to me if you read this > or don't, but man, you really need to "take a chill pill" and calm > down and learn to accept what you can't change. "What I can't change", riiiight. Now you're trolling. And as far as chill pills, I seem to recall your being the one who burst out flaming and screaming today, throwing around insults like a spoiled little shit. > You change people's minds by showing them that you understand them > and then gradually leading them in the direction of better tools, > methods and practices, not by shouting at them and calling them > idiots. And once again you misunderstand. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Here? On THIS list, for free? Are you kidding? I have bills to pay and work to do, and I use the very best tools that I've found in my time of doing this. Sometimes, when I'm asked for help, or when I'm paid for it, I help others use good tools. And I'm certainly not trying to convince YOU, because you're obviously the second biggest Microsoft devotee on this list. Your occasional "I hate it too" crap doesn't fool anyone, because in the very next breath you sing its praises and proclaim that it's the only thing the world REALLY uses, and everyone else is deluded or something. Come ON, man. But please do consider what I typed above, about technical vs. business computing etc etc. All assholeness aside, on both your part and mine, that may be the reason why we have such different views on the FACTS (not opinions) of the industry. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 23:14:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:14:31 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9E4EA7.8060100@neurotica.com> On 10/19/2011 12:05 AM, David Griffith wrote: > How long do you go between battery changes on the 35s? Let's see. I received it as a birthday gift in March of 2009. I use it occasionally, perhaps once or twice per week. (I usually use my 28S, 41CX, or 48SX) I've changed the batteries four times, I think. The last battery change was just before an extended period away from home, so it basically sat unused for about eight months, and when I got back to it the batteries were dead. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 18 23:14:41 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:14:41 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:09 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: hp calculators > > On 10/18/2011 6:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 9:14 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> I'm about to get something to replace my old TI85 I had from high school. > Lots of you here rave about the HP's offerings. Indeed, I wanted to get, but > couldn't afford an HP48g when they were new. I don't have much need for > graphing now, but I do need scientific calculation. The HP35s seems good for > that. Or should I just jump in and get the HP50g? > > If you'd be ok with a used calculator, I tell ya, I just couldn't love a > calculator more than my HP28S. I use it pretty much all the time. > > > > If you'd prefer a one-piece design, the 48SX and successors are a pleasure > to use, even if the keys are a bit too overloaded with alternate functions. > > > > Honestly I'd recommend going for one of those models. > > I love the 28 series (it's a great form factor sadly abandoned), but the > lack of I/O options for backup/restore of programs is kind of annoying. > And N-cells are more expensive than AAA's :). > > I do have a 50G, and I find it to be pretty nice. The build quality is > good (not as good as the good old days) and the key-click is *almost* > right. > > But then again, a used HP 48-SX/GX shouldn't run you too much either -- > probably about the same as a new 50G. And if you want a nice used calc > of the non-graphing variety, the HP-41 series are lovely calculators > and you can find a nice used one for about the same price. (I'm basing > this on current eBay prices, your mileage may vary.) > I love my 48-SX, which I bought shortly after I started my Masters program, in 2003. I haven't changed the batteries yet. One thing I like about it is that it has the blue and gold keys and legends. One thing that's a bit frustrating is that it sometimes requires a keystroke sequence to do what I'd like to do in one, but on the other hand it handles symbolic calculation very nicely and I just have to get used to the idea that I have to collapse the symbolic representation to a numeric one at some point. :-) I recently picked up a 41-CV and, while I think it's very cool, I like the 'tall' display of the 48-SX that lets me see four registers at a time. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 18 23:21:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:21:30 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2011 11:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> When did the build quality start to drop? I have a 35S, which is great >> but the build quality isn't even close to real HP. It also chews >> through batteries like there's no tomorrow. (2x CR2032) The next most >> recent one I have is a 48SX, which is very nicely built, so it seems >> to me the decline happened somewhere in between. > > That's a good question. My dad teaches Math at a local community college > and the Math department at said college always seemed to get ahold of at > least one example of most of the graphing calculators that came out in > the late 80s through the mid 90s, from the Casio FX-7000G on. As a > result I got to play with most of them :). Oh man, I'm jealous!! > The build quality of the > HP-48SX was great, as was the GX (used that one through college and it > still works, though alas the LCD has started to "leak"). I recall the > 38G (1995) as being well built physically but a poorly executed idea > software-wise (it was HP trying to take on TI in the high school-level > education department and failing miserably). Was the 38G the algebraic-notation one with the menus and stuff in the firmware? > The HP 49G (1999) was a > real dog and I don't think things have been the same since, though the > HP50 is a marked improvement (and the 35S is pretty nice in comparison > as well.) Oh, that's a shame. So based on your experience, knowing that I have a 48SX and that I like that build quality, it seems the latest model I should mess with would probably be the 48GX? There's nothing wrong with my current "fleet" of calculators, but now being recently gainfully employed once again (good riddance, Florida!) I've been thinking of treating myself to something new. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From oe5ewl at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 23:35:20 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:35:20 +0200 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I use a 35s for my day to day work and can definately recommend it. Okay it's no HP classic but build quality is okay, it supports my loved RPN and isn't too complicated. It's in use dayly. In my experience the batteries last quite long. For the sometimes needed classic experience I have my old HP 67 readily available in my office desks drawer ;) Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/10/19 Dave McGuire > On 10/18/2011 11:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> When did the build quality start to drop? I have a 35S, which is great >>> but the build quality isn't even close to real HP. It also chews >>> through batteries like there's no tomorrow. (2x CR2032) The next most >>> recent one I have is a 48SX, which is very nicely built, so it seems >>> to me the decline happened somewhere in between. >>> >> >> That's a good question. My dad teaches Math at a local community college >> and the Math department at said college always seemed to get ahold of at >> least one example of most of the graphing calculators that came out in >> the late 80s through the mid 90s, from the Casio FX-7000G on. As a >> result I got to play with most of them :). >> > > Oh man, I'm jealous!! > > > The build quality of the >> HP-48SX was great, as was the GX (used that one through college and it >> still works, though alas the LCD has started to "leak"). I recall the >> 38G (1995) as being well built physically but a poorly executed idea >> software-wise (it was HP trying to take on TI in the high school-level >> education department and failing miserably). >> > > Was the 38G the algebraic-notation one with the menus and stuff in the > firmware? > > > The HP 49G (1999) was a >> real dog and I don't think things have been the same since, though the >> HP50 is a marked improvement (and the 35S is pretty nice in comparison >> as well.) >> > > Oh, that's a shame. > > So based on your experience, knowing that I have a 48SX and that I like > that build quality, it seems the latest model I should mess with would > probably be the 48GX? > > There's nothing wrong with my current "fleet" of calculators, but now > being recently gainfully employed once again (good riddance, Florida!) I've > been thinking of treating myself to something new. > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 23:37:35 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 05:37:35 +0100 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4E9E4DBF.4060701@neurotica.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4E9E4DBF.4060701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 19 October 2011 05:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/18/2011 11:16 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> Flame away if you like, but bear in mind that it makes you look >> stupid and seem immature. > > ?Maybe even as stupid and immature as calling anyone who disagrees with you > "unprofessional". ?Don't start a fight and not expect to...well, get a > fight. > >>> You've misidentified the causality graph here. ?I don't say >>> Microsoft sucks because I dislike it, I dislike it because it >>> sucks. ?When they create a viable product, I will use it, recommend >>> it, and sell it. ?In the past, when they did, I did. ?I am getting >>> a little tired of having to explain that to people who snap and >>> snarl without listening first. >> >> *I* dislike it because it sucks, too. Our opinions have little >> bearing on the continents-full of people using it, though. > > ?Let's see. ?I don't use it, nobody I know uses it, nobody I work for now > uses it, nobody I've ever worked for (save for a few suits who raped the > companies) has used it... > >>> You also seem to think that I am somehow fantasizing and/or >>> imagining how things work in this industry, rather than actually >>> working here and getting paid for my expertise. ?While there are >>> plenty of people on this list for whom that's true, as this list is >>> a community of hobbyists, I assure you that's not the case here. >> >> I work in the field every day and have watched the rise of MICROS~1 >> since my getting into the industry in 1988; before that, I watched >> from the sidelines from around the time of the introduction of the >> IBM PC, which is, coincidentally, about the time I got interested in >> computers and computing. > > ?Then I've been involved in it for a bit longer than you have, from the CP/M > days, probably not enough of a difference to be particularly meaningful. > >>> I mean, shit, you act like you think I've never seen the inside of >>> an office before, any office, least of all a technical one. ?That's >>> ironic, because while it's rather far from the truth, it sure is >>> how YOU come off. >> >> [Shrug] No skin off my nose, but I'm working in the business >> computing world still and I know what it's like. You don't seem to. > > ?Ah-HA. ?This may explain the difference in what we see. > > ?I assume that by "business computing" you mean bunches of suits shuffling > papers around, making faces at each other across conference tables, all > while randomly mentioning products like "Excel" and names like "Bloomberg" > and "Kiewit" to try to make themselves sound cool. > > ?Please note well that, while I do firmly believe that you're an asshole of > epic proportions, what I said in the previous paragraph is not intended to > disparage YOU in any way, shape, or form. > > ?Anyway, I work exclusively in technical computing. ?Always have. ?Now I'm > thinking that this may be a "different worlds" kind of thing. > > ?So my beef with you, then, wouldn't be a matter of "this prick doesn't know > what he's talking about", but more a matter of "this prick thinks the whole > data processing world is exactly like the little corner of it that HE works > in". > > ?(and I might, maybe, just be guilty of the same thing!) > > ?My view of that side of "computing" is that it's common to tolerate crappy > tools. ?I don't understand that mindset, but then, I'm very intolerant of > crappy tools > >> Great way to grow and learn, that. Block out anyone who corrects >> you. Let us know how you get on with that, won't you? > > ?Likewise. ?I haven't kill-filed you yet, I felt bad after flaming you so > hard. ?I felt even worse after coming to the realization that I started > typing about in the above paragraph. ?I still think you're an asshole, but I > think we may be talking about two very different parts of the world. ?IF > that's the case, then we were both wrong to make the assertions we made. > > ?Whether you choose to accept it or not, much of the technical world that > *I* work in doesn't use Windows, and never really has. ?The people that did > are dropping it left and right, as tools become available for > non-proprietary OSs. ?I got a new (awesome) job about two weeks ago at a > company that develops automation and embedded systems stuff, and in the > entire company there is precisely ONE computer running Windows...and that > one will likely be ditched before long. > >>> And of course you know I can't let this part go. ?You assert that >>> my attitude is "unprofessional" because I don't simply obey the >>> magazine ads or the nontechnical people making technical decisions, >>> and instead get paid to make technical recommendations for >>> technical things based on real technical observations and technical >>> experience? ?That's just absurd. >> >> No, not at all. I assert that it's unprofessional to go around >> calling people arseholes and liars and idiots. > > ?I assert that it's unprofessional (but not commonly viewed as such) to NOT > tell people when they're being idiots. > >> Or swearing all the time. > > ?Oh good heavens. > >> Or claiming that tools used by more people than live in your >> entire country are useless rubbish. > > ?Those particular tools ARE. ?And, really? ?350 MILLION people run Windows? > ?Did you get that straight from Microsoft? > > ?One other interesting thing is your assertion that non-Windows people tend > to be "prima donna" types. ?I agree with this, but once again you got the > causality relationship wrong. ?People who are overly anal about quality, > "right tool for the job", etc are often viewed as prima donnas. ?(and > rightfully so!) ?For THAT VERY REASON, they tend not to run Windows. > >> Or claiming that the former >> richest corporation in the world, owned and run by the former richest >> man in the world, are incompetents. > > ?Wait, you've GOT to be an American. ?Are you really claiming that having > money implies technical competence, or otherwise defines the intrinsic value > of a person or company in other than financial terms? > > ?Seriously? > > ?So all someone has to do to be competent in your eyes is go out and rob a > bank, no matter how stupid they may be? ?You said yourself that company is a > bunch of crooks. (paraphrased) > >>> In fact, that's the very ESSENCE of professionalism. ?Anything less >>> is fanboy ass-kissing. ?I've been a good plumber for as long as >>> you've been breathing, and you're trying to tell me what kind of >>> pipes the world uses. ?Ha! ?*plonk* >> >> So tell me, top-quoting boy, how do you feel this enhances your >> reputation for professionalism, skill and knowledge? :?) > > ?In this crowd of mostly people who don't work in this industry? ?I couldn't > care less. ?Nobody here is hiring. ?(well, almost nobody, but I'm not moving > again! ;)) > >> I'm not offended and it doesn't really matter to me if you read this >> or don't, but man, you really need to "take a chill pill" and calm >> down and learn to accept what you can't change. > > ?"What I can't change", riiiight. ?Now you're trolling. > > ?And as far as chill pills, I seem to recall your being the one who burst > out flaming and screaming today, throwing around insults like a spoiled > little shit. > >> You change people's minds by showing them that you understand them >> and then gradually leading them in the direction of better tools, >> methods and practices, not by shouting at them and calling them >> idiots. > > ?And once again you misunderstand. ?I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. > ?Here? ?On THIS list, for free? ?Are you kidding? ?I have bills to pay and > work to do, and I use the very best tools that I've found in my time of > doing this. ?Sometimes, when I'm asked for help, or when I'm paid for it, I > help others use good tools. > > ?And I'm certainly not trying to convince YOU, because you're obviously the > second biggest Microsoft devotee on this list. ?Your occasional "I hate it > too" crap doesn't fool anyone, because in the very next breath you sing its > praises and proclaim that it's the only thing the world REALLY uses, and > everyone else is deluded or something. ?Come ON, man. > > ?But please do consider what I typed above, about technical vs. business > computing etc etc. ?All assholeness aside, on both your part and mine, that > may be the reason why we have such different views on the FACTS (not > opinions) of the industry. I'm not going to bother debating point-by-point with an offensive, loudmouthed bigot. Who is, incidentally, younger than me and is very definitely a *lot* less experienced than me in the wider world. You clearly know very little about the realities of commercial, home and business computing in C21. I am happy to accept that your statements are entirely accurate about technical/scientific computing. I have little contact with this area, but when I do, I mostly see Linux and Mac OS X, and Windows is rare except in the administrative areas. However, the fact remains that technical/scientific computing is a small niche market. If you have managed to remain within it, good for you. I am happy for you. You are making a cardinal error of logic in thinking that the area that you specialise in is the whole world, though. It's one I've made myself. For instance, it would be very easy to deduce, from walking around homes and offices, that x86 computers utterly dominate today. No mainstream PC manufacturer makes desktops or laptops that run anything else, except occasionally as sidelines, e.g. Toshiba's AC-100 ARM netbook. But actually, ARM processors outsell all different makes of x86 chips many times over, perhaps 10? over. Embedded computers far outnumber PCs, and in the embedded world, things like MIPS are still strong, as even are 8-bit devices. One of the world's most widely-deployed OSs is TRON and iTRON and yet few have ever heard of it. But in the world of the PC, of general-purpose computers, yes, x86 rules, and in the world of x86, Windows rules. Apple with Mac OS X has about 5% of the world market. It's gone lower but since the launch of the Mac in 1984 it's never gone much higher. In terms of value, Apple sells very well - in some sectors it's reached a third of the market, but in terms of units, it's way behind. And Linux is a dramatically smaller sector than Apple. It's around a single percent. Yes, I can demonstrate all this conclusively with figures, but I am not going to go obtaining and giving references for a hostile and abusive fool who repeatedly calls complete strangers arseholes. You are demonstrating the exact sort of prima-donna behaviour that is [a] strongly associated with Asperger's Syndrome, meaning that you need to learn some people skills, and [b] is exactly what keeps Linux in a tiny niche and prevents it from expanding in the world of business. Because the sort of people who build and run elaborate Unix systems are big, grumpy, bearded boorish males who are very hard to work with and expect to be treated like gods when they behave like spoiled schoolchildren. Oh, and by the way, just to point out the foolishness of your mud-slinging, this is typed on my Linux-powered main PC, which like my laptop, runs Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot". I have never bought an Microsoft product in my life and never will, and I have bought one used end-of-life Apple OS and two used Newtons in my entire computing life, nothing else. Yes, I have a dozen or so Macs. Most are 15-20+ years old, because after all this is a classic-computers collectors' list and it's why I'm here, and *every single one of them* was free. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 23:48:25 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:48:25 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <974695F3-D0DA-427E-B342-98DA7DDA137E@kevill.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9E1D6D.8050806@brouhaha.com>, <974695F3-D0DA-427E-B342-98DA7DDA137E@kevill.com> Message-ID: <4E9DF429.21441.2CFBAEA@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2011 at 10:02, Scott Kevill wrote: >> WD1771: (FM only) > b=0: Read Command = 1 0 0 x 0 x 0 0 > 01 - 16 bytes > 02 - 32 bytes > 03 - 48 bytes > 04 - 64 bytes > .. .. > FF - 4080 bytes > 00 - 4096 bytes Thanks for elaborating my my brief quotes. FWIW, has anyone tried this with the WD1781? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 19 00:07:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 01:07:46 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 19, 2011, at 12:35 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > I use a 35s for my day to day work and can definately recommend it. Okay > it's no HP classic but build quality is okay, it supports my loved RPN and > isn't too complicated. It's in use dayly. In my experience the batteries > last quite long. Wow, really? I wonder if there's a hardware or firmware revision that affects the battery life. Do you have any idea of how to get the 35S to tell it's firmware revision level? > For the sometimes needed classic experience I have my old HP 67 readily > available in my office desks drawer ;) Nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 19 00:26:43 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9DFCD1.2010009@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Oct 18, 11 03:25:21 pm" Message-ID: <201110190526.p9J5Qh1O013686@floodgap.com> > > This just dawned on me: perhaps Rich was referring to AS/400 (System i). > > That *does* run on POWER now. > > But not by emulating the original AS/400 CISC hardware. True, it's native. But it's nice to know my Power 520 can run System i if I ever got that crazy to dump AIX. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? --------------- From scott at kevill.com Wed Oct 19 00:29:14 2011 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:29:14 +0800 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9DF429.21441.2CFBAEA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9E1D6D.8050806@brouhaha.com>, <974695F3-D0DA-427E-B342-98DA7DDA137E@kevill.com> <4E9DF429.21441.2CFBAEA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1EC09DB2-0583-49A0-B975-919717D5FCB5@kevill.com> On 19/10/2011, at 12:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Thanks for elaborating my my brief quotes. Didn't get your message until after I'd sent mine, so it was lucky. :) > FWIW, has anyone tried this with the WD1781? Hadn't even heard of that one, but I am interested in testing the 17xx chips to see what they actually do with "IBM format" sector length codes > 03. Scott. From oe5ewl at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 00:52:30 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:52:30 +0200 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hm. I have no idea about the firmware or hardware rev. level. Could be realistic that this affects battery life. By the way: Someone's got a spare battery pack for my HP 67? Even with dead NICDs that I could replace. The pack in my calculator was lost years ago so I have to run it from the original wall-wart all the time; thats a bit annoying. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/10/19 Dave McGuire > On Oct 19, 2011, at 12:35 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger > wrote: > > I use a 35s for my day to day work and can definately recommend it. Okay > > it's no HP classic but build quality is okay, it supports my loved RPN > and > > isn't too complicated. It's in use dayly. In my experience the batteries > > last quite long. > > Wow, really? I wonder if there's a hardware or firmware revision that > affects the battery life. Do you have any idea of how to get the 35S to > tell it's firmware revision level? > > > For the sometimes needed classic experience I have my old HP 67 readily > > available in my office desks drawer ;) > > Nice! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > > > From jonas at otter.se Tue Oct 18 15:02:19 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:02:19 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9DDB4B.9070506@otter.se> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:06:17 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > > I wasn't given much choice. My parents told me to behave, and to learn > how to handle situations where people with power over me were wrong. (Sometimes unfortunately) you don't get to choose your parents. But you must have had sensible parents :-) > I guess that I learned PART of that - I have never defenestrated a college > administrator! Perhaps the wrong part? ;-) It sounds as if your college administrators ought to be defenestrated as soon as possible, and from as high up as possible... They sound just like Dilbert's pointy-haired boss. /Jonas From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Oct 19 01:05:35 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:05:35 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9E68AF.5070009@mail.msu.edu> On 10/18/2011 9:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/18/2011 11:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> The build quality of the >> HP-48SX was great, as was the GX (used that one through college and it >> still works, though alas the LCD has started to "leak"). I recall the >> 38G (1995) as being well built physically but a poorly executed idea >> software-wise (it was HP trying to take on TI in the high school-level >> education department and failing miserably). > > Was the 38G the algebraic-notation one with the menus and stuff in > the firmware? Yeah. It had some odd quasi-BASIC-like programming language as well and the ability to run downloaded "aplets." Same hardware as the 48. > >> The HP 49G (1999) was a >> real dog and I don't think things have been the same since, though the >> HP50 is a marked improvement (and the 35S is pretty nice in comparison >> as well.) > > Oh, that's a shame. > > So based on your experience, knowing that I have a 48SX and that I > like that build quality, it seems the latest model I should mess with > would probably be the 48GX? Yeah, probably, but I don't know if there's a good reason to upgrade from an SX to a GX. The GX is a great calculator but there's not a huge difference between it and the SX. It has a slightly faster CPU, an LCD with better contrast, more memory built in (128K) and the ability to take larger expansion cards (I think it was theoretically possible to make a 4MB card, though I don't know if any were actually made and if they were I bet a used one'd fetch a princely sum today). Oh, and a slightly uglier color scheme (teal/purple vs. blue/orange). A few cosmetic improvements to the software such as "forms" based input menus to make certain operations (graphing, solving, configuration) more user-friendly (though you can still do it the old fashioned way just like on the SX) and a set of built in libraries for chemistry and physics. There are certainly other differences, but nothing fundamental. Honestly, I like the 50G. It's way overkill for my needs these days (I can't recall the last time I really needed to graph something, or even do basic calculus) but it's a nice advancement of the series (though perhaps a little late). It actually has an ARM CPU running an emulation of the old Saturn architecture, and as a result it's several times faster than the 48. It's possible to run programs directly on the ARM CPU (outside of the emulation sandbox) as well. It has a nice CAS, an SD card slot (I think even a 16mb card would provide more storage for a calculator than anyone would ever need, but I may be wrong), and a very nice LCD with some extra vertical resolution over the 48. It also speaks USB (which I know will draw the ire of some here) and has some manner of serial port (I've never tried to interface with it, but there's a third party cable here: http://commerce.hpcalc.org/serialcable.php). Alas, no IR port. It does commit the cardinal sin of moving the "ENTER" key to the lower-left, though. That could be a deal-breaker :). So either upgrade to the 50G, or stick with the 48SX, I don't see a huge reason to upgrade to the GX. Other than the new toy factor, which has always worked for me :). - Josh > > There's nothing wrong with my current "fleet" of calculators, but > now being recently gainfully employed once again (good riddance, > Florida!) I've been thinking of treating myself to something new. > > -Dave > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Oct 19 01:10:10 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:10:10 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9E69C2.4000202@mail.msu.edu> On 10/18/2011 10:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 19, 2011, at 12:35 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > >> For the sometimes needed classic experience I have my old HP 67 readily >> available in my office desks drawer ;) > Nice! > > -Dave > A few years ago before Boeing Surplus went away I lucked out and found an HP-67 sitting in a shopping cart behind the checkout counter. I assumed it was something that'd already been sold, but I asked the cashier and she said that it wasn't. I asked how much, and she said "How's $5 sound?". Sold! I scrounged around in the cart and found the A/C adapter as well. I don't often get that lucky :). Card reader needs to be rebuilt but I'm hesitant to open it up since it involves removing the rear label. This one's in such good cosmetic shape I worry about damaging it. (And honestly these days I don't know if I'd use the card reader that much anyway...) I also have an HP-65 which appears to be broken beyond repair, alas... - Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 19 01:21:33 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:21:33 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E9E6C6D.6010301@brouhaha.com> Ian King wrote: > I recently picked up a 41-CV and, while I think it's very cool, > I like the 'tall' display of the 48-SX that lets me see four registers > at a time. You'd probably like the DIY4 that I showed at the HHC conference last month. It's the latest in a series of prototype calculators Richard Ottosen and I have developed. The DIY4 is fully compatible with the HP-41CX (including synthetic programming, microcode, etc.), but has a few extensions. It has a high-resolution LCD display (400x240, 173dpi), so I expanded the flags available to the user, adding flags 56 though 255 (though of course 100-255 are only accessible indirectly). Turning on flag 56 causes the calculator to display all four stack levels at any time that the calculator would normally display the X register. In other words, not in program or alpha mode, or when a VIEW, AVIEW, PROMPT, etc. is in effect. The calculator electronics and firmware are nearing completion. The part that is problematic is figuring out how to get it into production. In low volume the retail price would have to be well over $200. In high volume it could be much lower, but I'm not convinced that it would sell in high volume at any price. In another thread, Ian wrote: > You must reverse yourself, grasshopper. Oops, you're right. I think the context of Jerome's comparison to the CDC Star confused me. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 19 01:25:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:25:24 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9DF429.21441.2CFBAEA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9E1D6D.8050806@brouhaha.com>, <974695F3-D0DA-427E-B342-98DA7DDA137E@kevill.com> <4E9DF429.21441.2CFBAEA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E9E6D54.6080603@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > FWIW, has anyone tried this with the WD1781? What systems actually used the 1781? I've got some 1781 chips, but I'd have to design a board with a suitable FM, MFM, or M2FM encoder/decoder in order to actually use them. It would be interesting to see whether the 1781 with a suitable DEC-M2FM encoder/decoder could be used to read/write double density RX02 format. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 19 05:31:53 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:31:53 -0400 Subject: hp calculators Message-ID: It's still not too hard to find a HP-25. Retrofit the rechargeables and you're set. But IMHO the true sweet spot is a HP-15C or HP-11C. A set of batteries will last for years. I am not a huge fan of bells-and-whistles features. From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Oct 19 05:34:23 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:34:23 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 09:42:08PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose > > programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which > > would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values > > together - ie, decreasing the precision - and would let you specify a > > required minimum precision for results or function parameters, with > > exceptions being thrown if those can't be achieved. It would be nice to > > be able to automate away the problem of "measure with a micrometer, mark > > with chalk, cut with an axe". > Some years ago, at the HPCC conference (I think it was in 2007), Hugh > Steers presents a piece of software he'd written where you could specift > the precieon you wanted in the answer and which would then use better > approximations as necesssty until that precision had been reached. Thanks, but I'm more concerned with sensible use value approximate values as opposed to how to *get* approximate values. To take a somewhat contrived example, let's suppose that I have a variable $sqrt_two whose value is 1.414, known to be correct to 4 significant figures. I can square it, and get $two == 1.999396, which is slightly less precise. I can raise $sqrt_two to the fourth power and get $four == 3.997584364816 which is slightly less precise again. Continue abusing the approximation enough, raising 1.414 to the ninth and seventeenth powers and you end up with 255.382etc and 65220.etc. So we've gone from a fairly good approximation to a bloody awful one. I would like to be able to: * mark a variable as being an approximation, and with how precise it is; * for those markers to propagate to any result that arises from a calculation involving that variable; those two are somewhat similar to "tainting" of variables in perl; I presume that similar features exist in other dynamic languages and maybe in some others. * for those propagated markers to have the appropriate precision attached. NB this is *not* just a copy of the original precision - while 1.414 is sqrt(2) to 4sf, 65220 is a lot less precise! * to specify required precisions for the variables I store my results in, or for functions' return values, or for functions' parameters, and to throw exceptions if those are violated -- David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence If you have received this email in error, please add some nutmeg and egg whites, whisk, and place in a warm oven for 40 minutes. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 19 07:49:43 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 08:49:43 -0400 Subject: Significance arithmetic - was Re: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E9EC767.2070401@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/10/11 6:34 AM, David Cantrell wrote: > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 09:42:08PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I wish there was a widely available, widely known general purpose >>> programming language which had a "number with precision" type, which >>> would Do The Right Thing when doing things like multiplying values >>> together - ie, decreasing the precision ... > I would like to be able to: > > * mark a variable as being an approximation, and with how precise it is; > * for those markers to propagate to any result that arises from a > calculation involving that variable; It is not clear why this idea has been so consistently ignored, except it may be another case of "worse is better"... Re Steve Richfield's "significance arithmetic" proposal, see: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch.arithmetic/d9YzeOe3Bok/eQT9uNBUCOQJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch.arithmetic/d9YzeOe3Bok/wlDjDjshfKQJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch.arithmetic/aCDUAQDgmOg/vqgbA2YUpnkJ More rationale: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch.arithmetic/aCDUAQDgmOg/dnRUg3kuvrMJ et seq. There are many good anecdotes in that thread - including at least one involving Dennis Ritchie - and much discussion of the shortcomings of IEEE-754 arithmetic. Richfield: "Significance arithmetic will not change ANY results - it will just tell you which ones are reaching beyond the capability of the methodology being used." Mathematica does some precision tracking, for what it's worth. --Toby > > those two are somewhat similar to "tainting" of variables in perl; I > presume that similar features exist in other dynamic languages and maybe > in some others. > > * for those propagated markers to have the appropriate precision > attached. NB this is *not* just a copy of the original precision - > while 1.414 is sqrt(2) to 4sf, 65220 is a lot less precise! > * to specify required precisions for the variables I store my results > in, or for functions' return values, or for functions' parameters, and > to throw exceptions if those are violated > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 10:58:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 08:58:01 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shiping : Altos CPM and MiocroSoft COBOL 8"disc's In-Reply-To: <4E9E6D54.6080603@brouhaha.com> References: <004a01cc7ee2$56733040$035990c0$@xs4all.nl>, <4E9DF429.21441.2CFBAEA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E9E6D54.6080603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E9E9119.19887.F59B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2011 at 23:25, Eric Smith wrote: > It would be interesting to see whether the 1781 with a suitable > DEC-M2FM encoder/decoder could be used to read/write double density > RX02 format. WD1781 chips are very uncommon, proably because they were fraught with problems (mostly hangs). There was a reason that WD dropped it from its product line--I think they hated it. I've got a couple of Durango F85 systems here that use 100 tpi drives and WD1781s to handle group encoding and get about 980K of usable space on a floppy. I've seen a couple of other systems using it, but don't recall what they were. I don't see why one couldn't handle the MFM" RX02 encoding in a similar manner using one. --Chuck (FWIW, the 1781 is essentially a "naked" 1771 with (IIRC) with the FM modulation removed. The command set is the same as the 1771.) From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 19 12:32:32 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:32:32 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E6C6D.6010301@brouhaha.com> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E6C6D.6010301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:22 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: hp calculators > > Ian King wrote: > > I recently picked up a 41-CV and, while I think it's very cool, > > I like the 'tall' display of the 48-SX that lets me see four registers > > at a time. > > You'd probably like the DIY4 that I showed at the HHC conference last > month. It's the latest in a series of prototype calculators Richard > Ottosen and I have developed. The DIY4 is fully compatible with the > HP-41CX (including synthetic programming, microcode, etc.), but has a > few extensions. It has a high-resolution LCD display (400x240, 173dpi), > so I expanded the flags available to the user, adding flags 56 though > 255 (though of course 100-255 are only accessible indirectly). Turning > on flag 56 causes the calculator to display all four stack levels at any > time that the calculator would normally display the X register. In > other words, not in program or alpha mode, or when a VIEW, AVIEW, > PROMPT, etc. is in effect. > > The calculator electronics and firmware are nearing completion. The part > that is problematic is figuring out how to get it into production. In > low volume the retail price would have to be well over $200. In high > volume it could be much lower, but I'm not convinced that it would sell > in high volume at any price. > [snip] Indeed, "serious" calculators just don't seem to be a market, when everyone has a laptop, smart phone, etc. For instance, I have a very cool emulation of a HP 16C on my Android phone - the form factor is just a bit smaller, but nearly correct! Although I really like playing with my 48SX, I do so seldom enough that I have to go back to the manuals for anything beyond simple math functions. And I'm always carrying my phone.... But your project does sound very cool. -- Ian From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 14:52:28 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For Sale: Phillips PX-1000cr terminal with crypto capabilities Message-ID: <1319053948.24583.YahooMailClassic@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> FOR SALE: Two Phillips PX-1000cr - a small hand-held message terminal from 1985, with text encryption features. Any interest or value? See a link here: http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/philips/px1000/index.htm From scheefj at netscape.net Wed Oct 19 15:09:42 2011 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:09:42 -0400 Subject: Visiting Portland - Corvallis and vicinity end of Oct In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9F2E86.9060001@netscape.net> Hello all, I will be in the Portland - Corvallis area next week (10/22/11 thru 10/28/11) and do not want to miss any vintage computing thrills the area has to offer. Are there any computing-related museums in the area? If your collection is a little dusty, my heavy breathing is sure to help stir that dust. I'll be available more during the day than evening if we can connect. Please reply off list. Thanks, Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 19 15:19:51 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > I would like to be able to: > * mark a variable as being an approximation, and with how precise it is; THAT is already present. "float" in C means that it is an approximation to 24 binary significant digits. It does NOT, admittedly, however, tell you that any numbers that it was based on were also only approximate. > * for those markers to propagate to any result that arises from a > calculation involving that variable; THAT would be NICE! I'm curious how you would implement it. I guess that you could create a "floatpt struct" that contains a float and an int count of how many floats were used to create the value. That count could "approximate" how many of the least significant bits are meaningless. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 15:55:43 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:55:43 -0700 Subject: Visiting Portland - Corvallis and vicinity end of Oct In-Reply-To: <4E9F2E86.9060001@netscape.net> References: <4E9F2E86.9060001@netscape.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Jim Scheef wrote: > Hello all, > > I will be in the Portland - Corvallis area next week (10/22/11 thru > 10/28/11) and do not want to miss any vintage computing thrills the area has > to offer. Are there any computing-related museums in the area? > Maybe slightly OT, has anyone been to check out the Vintage Tek Museum yet? http://www.vintagetek.org/contact/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 19 16:16:03 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:16:03 -0700 Subject: Visiting Portland - Corvallis and vicinity end of Oct In-Reply-To: References: <4E9F2E86.9060001@netscape.net> Message-ID: At 1:55 PM -0700 10/19/11, Glen Slick wrote: >Maybe slightly OT, has anyone been to check out the Vintage Tek Museum yet? > >http://www.vintagetek.org/contact/ No, I was unaware of it. I'll have to see if I can find some time to visit it. I wonder if they have a library section. I'm looking for a copy of TEKweek from around the fall of 1978, the one that talks about Battlestar Galactica (the Bridge of the original Galactica was made up of about $3 Million dollars worth of Tek hardware). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 19 16:19:49 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:19:49 -0500 Subject: Visiting Portland - Corvallis and vicinity end of Oct In-Reply-To: References: , <4E9F2E86.9060001@netscape.net>, , Message-ID: I think Ed Sinclair has them all at Vintage Tek. Plan is to scan them all and put them online. You can also see them in bound issues at Tek, Bld 50, the "Heritage Room" > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:16:03 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Re: Visiting Portland - Corvallis and vicinity end of Oct > > At 1:55 PM -0700 10/19/11, Glen Slick wrote: > >Maybe slightly OT, has anyone been to check out the Vintage Tek Museum yet? > > > >http://www.vintagetek.org/contact/ > > No, I was unaware of it. I'll have to see if I can find some time to > visit it. I wonder if they have a library section. I'm looking for > a copy of TEKweek from around the fall of 1978, the one that talks > about Battlestar Galactica (the Bridge of the original Galactica was > made up of about $3 Million dollars worth of Tek hardware). > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 14:52:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:52:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 18, 11 04:50:58 pm Message-ID: > > Funny, this list is about classic computing but some people don't > > appreciate the old timers who are classics. For me having you guys (ok, > > Dave is a youngin') around is the best part of this list. There is an > > important period in computing before I got started in the late 1970s that I > > don't know enough about, and I enjoy hearing comments from the guys who > > were there. > > I'm old enough to appreciate being called a youngin' once in a while. > ;) I'm 42, been computing since I was ~12, doing it for money since I > was ~14. Don't paint me as too much of a newbie; I used most of what we > talk about on this list at work when it was modern! ;) I'm about the same age (44) and also started computing in the late 1970s, so I'm not realyl an old-timer either. I grew up with the 8-bit home micros, and I knew waht a PDP11 was (and knew I wanted one), but I didn;'t use the machines I am now really interested in -- minicomputers, PERQs, HP desktop calculators when they were current. I got them when they were being thrown out and fell in love. So I can't contribute to the stories of people who were there. I do enjoy reading such stories, so please keep them coming. However, a machine is interesting to me for what it does, not what it looks like, so I try to get them going again. And of course that often means working out repair methods that were not used when they were new, which I am then happy to share. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 15:31:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:31:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Oct 18, 11 06:14:52 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm about to get something to replace my old TI85 I had from high school. > Lots of you here rave about the HP's offerings. Indeed, I wanted to get, > but couldn't afford an HP48g when they were new. I don't have much need > for graphing now, but I do need scientific calculation. The HP35s seems > good for that. Or should I just jump in and get the HP50g? I'd get the 50g. I assume you want an RPN machine, that's the most common reason for wantign an HP clacualtor (the other reason -- fnatasitc build quality -- doesn't really apply any more :-(). The original HP handheld models used a 4-level RPN stack. It's a stack of real numbers only. 4 levels is snough for most calculations, but, perhaps becuase I don;'t use such machines all that mcuh I find I have to keep thinking 'do I have enoguh space on the stack' when I am using one. The 28/48/49/50 series use RPL. Now some claim that RPL is not RPN. IMHO they are wrong. RPL is actually a very pure RPN language. The stack can be as big as you like (limited only by memory). and it's a stack of any objects. Not just real numbers, but also complex numbers, algebraic expressions, strings, vectors, matricies, even programs. I use complex numbers a lot (for AC circuit analysis) and find that the RPL machines make it easy. I used a 15C at the last HPCC meeting and found it very clumsy by comparison -- and that's about the best 4-level-stack machien for complex number support. The other issue is I/O . The 48/49 series have RS232 serial ports, albeit on an odd conenctor. The 50G has a USB interface and a serial port (I think at 3.3V levels). You can tranfer things to/from a larger computer. This to me is essential, both to keep backups of my programs and to be able to distribute them easiy. I would not want a machine with a significant amout of memory that i could not back up in this way. SO perhaps I should tell you what I use : 16C : On my electronics bench, because the bit operations are better than those of any other machine 12C : YEs, it's financial, but it's also common and relatively inexpensive -- a '4 banger' for simple calculations 48GX and 49G : For jsut about everything... As I said, the complex number support is very useful to me. 71B : As a controller/tester for HPIL and HPIB stuff. OK, it programs in BASIC (but I have the Forth/Assember ROM in it) but it's easy to use tosend/receive strigns to instruments when I'm working on them 41CX : No real use other than it's a nice calculator with interesting peripherals. It does get usef for running some of the programs that were written for it, for general programming and for soem of the interesting hacks you can do on it. I have many others that get used from time to time when I feel like it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 15:37:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:37:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 18, 11 09:27:59 pm Message-ID: > If you'd be ok with a used calculator, I tell ya, I just couldn't > love a calculator more than my HP28S. I use it pretty much all the time. > > If you'd prefer a one-piece design, the 48SX and successors are a > pleasure to use, even if the keys are a bit too overloaded with > alternate functions. I agree thast the keyboard of the 48 and 49 seires is 'cluttered', but there are 2 reasons why I'd prefer those machines to a 28 (I used a 28C for several years and bought the first 48SX I could)... 1) The 48SX has a seiral port, you can load/save stuff to a larger machine. It even uses a standard protocol -- kermit (I think the G-series adds Xmodem). 2) Unit management. One the 48 and later machines you can attach a unit to a real number so you ahve something like 2.5V or 7.8_mm or whatever. The amchine will stop you doing dimensionally incorrect things like adding currents to voltages. It will also keep track of the units and handle the converstions, so you can subract mm from inches and have the result in lightyears (or more sensibly in inches, if you're using imperial machine tools). That's saved me a lot of time over the years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 15:42:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:42:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Oct 19, 11 00:33:44 am Message-ID: > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever > need. Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to a serious qyestion : Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex numbers in the cells and operate on them? Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I did it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet handles them as well as my HP calculators. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 15:16:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:16:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: <201110182252.p9IMqBLw063483@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust" at Oct 18, 11 05:40:02 pm Message-ID: > > At 04:15 PM 1/18/2011, Tony Duell wrote: > >So an interface which transfers data bit-serially over a pair of > >differentially-driving lines is a parallel interface? (2 lines are > >changing at once) > > Sounds like redundancy to me. Err, no. It's very common on long/fast serial lines to have 2 wires differentially driven -- so that when one is high the other is low and vice versa. The receiver then looks at the polarity of the differnce in votlage between these 2 lines. It leads to better noise immunity, for example. RS422 is one such interface. Apple Mac serial ports use this for the data lines. > > >I think that if you're sending data one bit at a time, that's a serial > >interface. ... A > >bit-banged serial interface _is_ a serial interface, even if you're using > >other lines on the same (parallel) port to do other things > > Reminds me of bits and baud. So if I'm sending two bits at a time > over two wires, that's parallel? Hmmm... Preusmably you send 4 such items for each byte. I guess that's bit parallel, 2bit serial or something :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 15:47:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:47:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Oct 18, 11 07:08:59 pm Message-ID: > But then again, a used HP 48-SX/GX shouldn't run you too much either -- > probably about the same as a new 50G. And if you want a nice used calc > of the non-graphing variety, the HP-41 series are lovely calculators > and you can find a nice used one for about the same price. (I'm basing > this on current eBay prices, your mileage may vary.) THe problem with the 41 seires is tht the calculator was designed as part of a 'system' and it's a pretty limited calcualtor on its own. It's a lot nicer when you've added a card reader, HPIL module, a couple of ROMs, maybe an MLDL unit, printer, HPIL mass storage, HPIL to HPIB or RS232 interfaces, etc. And that gets expensive fast. I'm lucky enough to have most of the bits for the HP41, but I wouldn't recoemnd goign that route unless you want to start building up a collection. Hh,and the hP41 runs on N cells too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 15:52:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:52:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 18, 11 10:24:56 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/18/2011 10:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > I love the 28 series (it's a great form factor sadly abandoned), but the > > lack of I/O options for backup/restore of programs is kind of annoying. > > And N-cells are more expensive than AAA's :). > > Agreed on all points. Yeah I wish they hadn't gone with N cells, > sometimes it's even a pain just to find them. Were AAAs around when the > original 28C came out? I rmemeebr using AAA cells (using zinc/carbon Leclanche' technology) when I was very young. Some torches (flashlights) used them. We called the 'U16's I think. I als rememebr the N sized cell from about the same time, it was nuch less common. I think that was called a 'D23' WHile I don;t know which was available first, both were available in the UK many years before the HP28C. Heck, years before the HP35 (the original one). > When did the build quality start to drop? I have a 35S, which is My view is that hte 'glory years' of HP were mid 1960s to mid 1980s. The build qualtiy started to decline iwth the 18C/28C models (which were heat-staked togetheter and thus not repariable. The rot really set in in 1997 though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 15:59:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:59:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 19, 11 00:21:30 am Message-ID: > So based on your experience, knowing that I have a 48SX and that I > like that build quality, it seems the latest model I should mess with > would probably be the 48GX? > THe HP49G certainly has a lower build quality than the 48 series (the keyboard o nthe 49G os a rubber thing, a slight improvement on the origianl Sinclair Spectrum...) but the firmware is much improced. The 49G does a lot more symbolically, it has 'big integers' (it'll calculate 100! and display al lthe digits), it has symbolic vectors and matrices and so on. I don't own a 50G. It should do all the above and more, though, and the keyboard (from the one's I've used at HPCC is a lot nicer than the 49G keyboard. Does the 50G allow you to transfer ojects using kermit over the asynchronous serial port? I've never managed to get an answer to that question... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 16:11:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:11:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: from "Wolfgang Eichberger" at Oct 19, 11 07:52:30 am Message-ID: > > Hm. I have no idea about the firmware or hardware rev. level. Could be > realistic that this affects battery life. > > By the way: Someone's got a spare battery pack for my HP 67? Even with dead > NICDs that I could replace. The pack in my calculator was lost years ago so > I have to run it from the original wall-wart all the time; thats a bit > annoying. ARGH! Do not do that! The AC adapter for the 67 ahs 2 outputs. One is a constant voltage output (about 4.2V I thinK) the other is a constant-current ouptut (55mA) with a maximum voltage of 15V or so. In the machines without card readers that use this adapter (35,45,55,70,80), the battery is disconencted from the machine when you plug the adapter in,. The constnat current charges the NiCd, the constant voltage runs the logic. These are safe to use without a battery pack fitted In the machiens with card readers (65, 67), the card reader amplidier/motor driver chip is conencted directly across the battery pack. If theree's no battery fitted (or the battery is opne-circuit), this chip gets 15V across it. The user manual for the HP65 warns that this can do damage. The chip was redesgned for the 67, and the new version is supposed ot stand up to this, but I am not going to risk it. Incidentally, if you have a 20 series, 30 series or 90 series with continuous memory (19C, 25C, 29C, 33C, 34C, 38C, 95C), you _will_ do damage if you conenct the AC adpater without a good battery installed. The battery acts as a shunt regualtor in these machines, and the RAM is powered by the battery at all times (that's how the ocntinuos memory is maintained). Without the battery, the RAM sees abotu 12V when the charger is plugged in and it doens't much like it, The safest way to charge the batteries is outside the calculator. HP sold 'reserve power packs' -- battery charger units -- for the classic (35, 67 etc), Woodstock (20 series), Spice (30 series) and Topcat (90 seires) amchines. I've never seen one for the Sting (10, 19C) machines, though. The classic-seires one is not too hard to find, the Topcat one a little harder, The Woodstock one is quite rare, the Spice one rare enough that some people claim it never existed (I can assure you it does). Incidentally, if ytou can't find one closer, I should be able ot find you a dead NiCd pack for your 67. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 16:21:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:21:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E69C2.4000202@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Oct 18, 11 11:10:10 pm Message-ID: > Card reader needs to be rebuilt but I'm hesitant to open it up since it > involves removing the rear label. This one's in such good cosmetic I like my machines to work (I am more interested in what they do than what htey look like), so I rebuilt the rollers in my 65, all 4 67s (!), both my 97s and both my 41 card readers... One of my 67s was a disaster. It had been fiddled with before, One of the nylon bllas to sense the card was missing, and more seriously so was the tiny nylon pressure roller. The ball is a stnadard part so I could buy some but the roller isn't. That 67 now has a brass roller in it . But making somethign that small was not easy. > shape I worry about damaging it. (And honestly these days I don't know > if I'd use the card reader that much anyway...) Rememebr the 67 doens't have continous msmory so it is useful to eb able ot save your programs. Also there were some application Pacs avialable (which do turn up from time to time), I use programs from the Mechancial Engineer Pac quite often. The Games Pac is fun too (adn to me a lot more interesting than modern computer games). > > I also have an HP-65 which appears to be broken beyond repair, alas... You;'ll be able to get an unoffocial schematic from HPCC, but unless it's a PSU problem or you have a donor machine you are probably right about it being beyond repair. The logic board contains 3 ROM chips and a 44-pin metal can which cotnaisn 5 silicon dice (Control&Timing, Arithmetic&Registers, 2 RAMs, card reader interface and clock buffer). Enough signals are brought out to be able ot tell which has fialed in most cases, but that's not a lot of use -) -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 19 16:51:59 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:51:59 +0100 Subject: Your emails on CCtalk References: Message-ID: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Hi, *off-list reply* Not sure if anyone has mentioned this to you yet (on or offlist), but a bunch of your replies from today (Weds 19th October) had the wrong date on them! An example header is below. Somehow you have gone back in time 9 months!! ;) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:56 PM Subject: Re: old clocks From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 17:18:55 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:18:55 +0100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 October 2011 21:42, Tony Duell wrote: >> Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. >> Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever >> need. > > Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to a > serious qyestion : > > Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex > numbers in the cells and operate on them? > > Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and > define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I did > it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit > analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet > handles them as well as my HP calculators. Gosh. Not that I know of, no! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 17:19:56 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:19:56 +0100 Subject: Your emails on CCtalk In-Reply-To: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On 19 October 2011 22:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Hi, > > *off-list reply* > > > Not sure if anyone has mentioned this to you yet (on or offlist), but a > bunch of your replies from today (Weds 19th October) had the wrong date on > them! > An example header is below. Somehow you have gone back in time 9 months!! ;) > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:56 PM > Subject: Re: old clocks Er, it wasn't off-list, you know... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 19 17:27:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> > > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. > > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever > > need. Read the book "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument Interfacing"; Louis M. Mezei, Prentice Hall, 1989 ISBN[10]: 0-13-519885-2 'Twould be presumptuous to specify "everything you could ever need". Some of us have unusual needs, that you might consider bizarre. "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you get what you need"?? On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to a > serious qyestion : > Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex > numbers in the cells and operate on them? > Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and > define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I did > it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit > analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet > handles them as well as my HP calculators. I'm far from expert - I don't even know how to get Excel to TELL ME which numbers are float, which cells (particularly floats) are calculated fron other floats, or even which have been rounded. I have used Visicalc, Lotus, and Excel for a number of "off-label" uses, such as small flat-file databases, etc. A lot of my CGA and MDA monitors had burnt-in "Lotus L"s. It is amazingly versatile, but certainly NOT "everything that you could ever need" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 19 17:29:43 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Your emails on CCtalk In-Reply-To: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20111019152747.U835@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Andrew Burton wrote: > Hi, > *off-list reply* OOPS! not quite. > Not sure if anyone has mentioned this to you yet (on or offlist), but a > bunch of your replies from today (Weds 19th October) had the wrong date on > them! > An example header is below. Somehow you have gone back in time 9 months!! ;) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:56 PM > Subject: Re: old clocks But, notice that the subject was "old clocks". For all of Tony's expertise in the subject, not just horing around, he still managed to let at least one of his clocks get more than half a year out of calibration! From db at db.net Wed Oct 19 17:42:58 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:42:58 -0400 Subject: Your emails on CCtalk In-Reply-To: References: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20111019224258.GB78561@night.db.net> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:19:56PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On 19 October 2011 22:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ... > Er, it wasn't off-list, you know... It got me double checking my NTP setup. ;-) - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 17:43:53 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:43:53 +0100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 19 October 2011 23:27, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. >> > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever >> > need. > > Read the book "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument > Interfacing"; Louis M. Mezei, Prentice Hall, 1989 > ISBN[10]: 0-13-519885-2 > > 'Twould be presumptuous to specify "everything you could ever need". > Some of us have unusual needs, that you might consider bizarre. > > "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you get what > you need"?? > > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to a >> serious qyestion : >> Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex >> numbers in the cells and operate on them? >> Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and >> define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I did >> it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit >> analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet >> handles them as well as my HP calculators. > > > I'm far from expert - I don't even know how to get Excel to TELL ME which > numbers are float, which cells (particularly floats) are calculated > fron other floats, or even which have been rounded. > > I have used Visicalc, Lotus, and Excel for a number of "off-label" uses, > such as small flat-file databases, etc. ?A lot of my CGA and MDA monitors > had burnt-in "Lotus L"s. > > It is amazingly versatile, but certainly NOT "everything that you could > ever need" OK, I defer. I was not aware of anything 1-2-3 could do that Excel could not, but hey, apparently there is. I was wrong. Sorry. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Oct 19 17:54:04 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:54:04 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: , <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: you're kidding right? excel is a joke. 1-2-3 was much better, quattro was even better sadly both have been crushed by monopoly of m$ is quattro old enough to be considered classic computing yet? :) > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:43:53 +0100 > Subject: Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) > From: lproven at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > On 19 October 2011 23:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. > >> > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever > >> > need. > > > > Read the book "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument > > Interfacing"; Louis M. Mezei, Prentice Hall, 1989 > > ISBN[10]: 0-13-519885-2 > > > > 'Twould be presumptuous to specify "everything you could ever need". > > Some of us have unusual needs, that you might consider bizarre. > > > > "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you get what > > you need"?? > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to a > >> serious qyestion : > >> Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex > >> numbers in the cells and operate on them? > >> Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and > >> define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I did > >> it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit > >> analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet > >> handles them as well as my HP calculators. > > > > > > I'm far from expert - I don't even know how to get Excel to TELL ME which > > numbers are float, which cells (particularly floats) are calculated > > fron other floats, or even which have been rounded. > > > > I have used Visicalc, Lotus, and Excel for a number of "off-label" uses, > > such as small flat-file databases, etc. A lot of my CGA and MDA monitors > > had burnt-in "Lotus L"s. > > > > It is amazingly versatile, but certainly NOT "everything that you could > > ever need" > > OK, I defer. I was not aware of anything 1-2-3 could do that Excel > could not, but hey, apparently there is. I was wrong. Sorry. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 19 18:15:22 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: , <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <20111019160806.I835@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > you're kidding right? > excel is a joke. 1-2-3 was much better, > quattro was even better > sadly both have been crushed by monopoly of m$ > is quattro old enough to be considered classic computing yet? :) Visicalc! Subject to your personal definition of "spreadsheet", Visicalc was arguably the creator. Some more VisiClones: Supercalc MultiPlan VP-Planner (THE precedent setter of software intellectual property, and coverage of stench, not just internal code - current copyright would even cover the screen burn-in!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 19 18:26:14 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111019161552.L835@shell.lmi.net> > >> > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. > >> > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever > >> > need. . . . > OK, I defer. I was not aware of anything 1-2-3 could do that Excel > could not, but hey, apparently there is. I was wrong. Sorry. We just HAD TO call you on your use of the word "everything". Excel certainly has hundreds of "features" that I'll never use, and might never even become aware of. I assigned creating a partial implementation of form 1040EZ when I was [involuntarily] assigned to teach a [REMEDIAL] Intro to computers class using Microsoft Office. I did not do a good job of it - a lot of the students cheated! and retyped a long paragraph just to avoid learning "cut and paste"! I LIKE Excel, but the depth of my knowledge of it leaves quite a bit to be desired. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 18:33:07 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 00:33:07 +0100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111019161552.L835@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> <20111019161552.L835@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 20 October 2011 00:26, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. >> >> > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever >> >> > need. > . . . >> OK, I defer. I was not aware of anything 1-2-3 could do that Excel >> could not, but hey, apparently there is. I was wrong. Sorry. > > We just HAD TO call you on your use of the word "everything". > Excel certainly has hundreds of "features" that I'll never use, and might > never even become aware of. > > I assigned creating a partial implementation of form 1040EZ when I was > [involuntarily] assigned to teach a [REMEDIAL] Intro to computers class > using Microsoft Office. ?I did not do a good job of it - a lot of the > students cheated! ?and retyped a long paragraph just to avoid learning > "cut and paste"! > > > I LIKE Excel, but the depth of my knowledge of it leaves quite a bit to be > desired. I once thought I knew it very well, but that was 15y ago. It has grown vastly and since I have never had any use for any of the new features, such as pivot tables, my knowledge has stagnated. But was I understanding correctly earlier? That 1-2-3 could handle complex numbers and do maths operations on them, whereas Excel can't? -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 19 19:29:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:29:04 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs -2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9F6B50.3070102@neurotica.com> On 10/19/2011 04:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> So an interface which transfers data bit-serially over a pair of >>> differentially-driving lines is a parallel interface? (2 lines are >>> changing at once) >> >> Sounds like redundancy to me. > > Err, no. It's very common on long/fast serial lines to have 2 wires > differentially driven -- so that when one is high the other is low and > vice versa. The receiver then looks at the polarity of the differnce in > votlage between these 2 lines. It leads to better noise immunity, for > example. > > RS422 is one such interface. Apple Mac serial ports use this for the data > lines. And v.35, some flavors of SCSI, the drive-side interface in FibreChannel, SATA, SAS, SSA, twisted-pair forms of Ethernet, PCIe (and indeed most other high-speed digital signals on PCBs these days), most copper-based telephony, all the signals in a Cray-1...differential signaling is everywhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 19 19:36:41 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm about to get something to replace my old TI85 I had from high school. >> Lots of you here rave about the HP's offerings. Indeed, I wanted to get, >> but couldn't afford an HP48g when they were new. I don't have much need >> for graphing now, but I do need scientific calculation. The HP35s seems >> good for that. Or should I just jump in and get the HP50g? > > I'd get the 50g. > > I assume you want an RPN machine, that's the most common reason for > wantign an HP clacualtor (the other reason -- fnatasitc build quality -- > doesn't really apply any more :-(). I'm gravitating towards the 50g. Though I like the return to the old keyboard layout in the 35s, the list of bugs in that calculator has me annoyed. It's not clear to me how or even if the 35s firmware can be updated. The 50g's layout looks a lot like a TI, but I can deal with that. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 19 19:45:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:45:32 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4E9E4DBF.4060701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9F6F2C.1020806@neurotica.com> [blatant top-post because I've already wasted too much time with you] You're the worst kind of sell-out...push push push product X, but use something different so you can swear you're not a pusher. Technical computing is a "niche", while suitly business computing isn't? Hardly. All UNIX guys are fat, bearded, boorish, and hard to work with? I'll concede the fat part, but the rest is bunk, you've obviously never met any. We're egotistical because of our uptimes and productivity levels. But, to follow your logic, all Windows people wear suits, have short spiky hair, talk a lot about the stock market, and never seem to get any work done. All black people are criminals, all Irish people are drunks, and all Brits have bad teeth, too. Must be so easy to be you, with all of your opinions so conveniently provided. And you're the second person on this list in the space of a week to remotely diagnose someone as having a mental illness, the same illness in fact, because they argue with you and you don't like the points they've made. I find that very interesting. It's natural for people to try to discredit one another whilst arguing in public, is a (sometimes subconscious) way to sway onlookers away from the other's position. But to do so in such an obvious way, especially when someone else just tried it here with another target a few days ago, really surprised me coming from you. Because, while I am quite certain that you're a barely-technical ass and a fanboi, I also firmly believe that you're not actually stupid. Anyway, I swore to myself I'd be better about stuff like this because I don't like contributing to the already high noise level on this list. For that, to the rest of the list members, I apologize. I now officially coin a new extension of an old Internet/Usenet acronym: IHBTBT, "I Have Been Trolled BigTime". Now back to your regularly scheduled mayhem, and maybe something about classic computers. -Dave On 10/19/2011 12:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 19 October 2011 05:10, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/18/2011 11:16 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> Flame away if you like, but bear in mind that it makes you look >>> stupid and seem immature. >> >> Maybe even as stupid and immature as calling anyone who disagrees with you >> "unprofessional". Don't start a fight and not expect to...well, get a >> fight. >> >>>> You've misidentified the causality graph here. I don't say >>>> Microsoft sucks because I dislike it, I dislike it because it >>>> sucks. When they create a viable product, I will use it, recommend >>>> it, and sell it. In the past, when they did, I did. I am getting >>>> a little tired of having to explain that to people who snap and >>>> snarl without listening first. >>> >>> *I* dislike it because it sucks, too. Our opinions have little >>> bearing on the continents-full of people using it, though. >> >> Let's see. I don't use it, nobody I know uses it, nobody I work for now >> uses it, nobody I've ever worked for (save for a few suits who raped the >> companies) has used it... >> >>>> You also seem to think that I am somehow fantasizing and/or >>>> imagining how things work in this industry, rather than actually >>>> working here and getting paid for my expertise. While there are >>>> plenty of people on this list for whom that's true, as this list is >>>> a community of hobbyists, I assure you that's not the case here. >>> >>> I work in the field every day and have watched the rise of MICROS~1 >>> since my getting into the industry in 1988; before that, I watched >>> from the sidelines from around the time of the introduction of the >>> IBM PC, which is, coincidentally, about the time I got interested in >>> computers and computing. >> >> Then I've been involved in it for a bit longer than you have, from the CP/M >> days, probably not enough of a difference to be particularly meaningful. >> >>>> I mean, shit, you act like you think I've never seen the inside of >>>> an office before, any office, least of all a technical one. That's >>>> ironic, because while it's rather far from the truth, it sure is >>>> how YOU come off. >>> >>> [Shrug] No skin off my nose, but I'm working in the business >>> computing world still and I know what it's like. You don't seem to. >> >> Ah-HA. This may explain the difference in what we see. >> >> I assume that by "business computing" you mean bunches of suits shuffling >> papers around, making faces at each other across conference tables, all >> while randomly mentioning products like "Excel" and names like "Bloomberg" >> and "Kiewit" to try to make themselves sound cool. >> >> Please note well that, while I do firmly believe that you're an asshole of >> epic proportions, what I said in the previous paragraph is not intended to >> disparage YOU in any way, shape, or form. >> >> Anyway, I work exclusively in technical computing. Always have. Now I'm >> thinking that this may be a "different worlds" kind of thing. >> >> So my beef with you, then, wouldn't be a matter of "this prick doesn't know >> what he's talking about", but more a matter of "this prick thinks the whole >> data processing world is exactly like the little corner of it that HE works >> in". >> >> (and I might, maybe, just be guilty of the same thing!) >> >> My view of that side of "computing" is that it's common to tolerate crappy >> tools. I don't understand that mindset, but then, I'm very intolerant of >> crappy tools >> >>> Great way to grow and learn, that. Block out anyone who corrects >>> you. Let us know how you get on with that, won't you? >> >> Likewise. I haven't kill-filed you yet, I felt bad after flaming you so >> hard. I felt even worse after coming to the realization that I started >> typing about in the above paragraph. I still think you're an asshole, but I >> think we may be talking about two very different parts of the world. IF >> that's the case, then we were both wrong to make the assertions we made. >> >> Whether you choose to accept it or not, much of the technical world that >> *I* work in doesn't use Windows, and never really has. The people that did >> are dropping it left and right, as tools become available for >> non-proprietary OSs. I got a new (awesome) job about two weeks ago at a >> company that develops automation and embedded systems stuff, and in the >> entire company there is precisely ONE computer running Windows...and that >> one will likely be ditched before long. >> >>>> And of course you know I can't let this part go. You assert that >>>> my attitude is "unprofessional" because I don't simply obey the >>>> magazine ads or the nontechnical people making technical decisions, >>>> and instead get paid to make technical recommendations for >>>> technical things based on real technical observations and technical >>>> experience? That's just absurd. >>> >>> No, not at all. I assert that it's unprofessional to go around >>> calling people arseholes and liars and idiots. >> >> I assert that it's unprofessional (but not commonly viewed as such) to NOT >> tell people when they're being idiots. >> >>> Or swearing all the time. >> >> Oh good heavens. >> >>> Or claiming that tools used by more people than live in your >>> entire country are useless rubbish. >> >> Those particular tools ARE. And, really? 350 MILLION people run Windows? >> Did you get that straight from Microsoft? >> >> One other interesting thing is your assertion that non-Windows people tend >> to be "prima donna" types. I agree with this, but once again you got the >> causality relationship wrong. People who are overly anal about quality, >> "right tool for the job", etc are often viewed as prima donnas. (and >> rightfully so!) For THAT VERY REASON, they tend not to run Windows. >> >>> Or claiming that the former >>> richest corporation in the world, owned and run by the former richest >>> man in the world, are incompetents. >> >> Wait, you've GOT to be an American. Are you really claiming that having >> money implies technical competence, or otherwise defines the intrinsic value >> of a person or company in other than financial terms? >> >> Seriously? >> >> So all someone has to do to be competent in your eyes is go out and rob a >> bank, no matter how stupid they may be? You said yourself that company is a >> bunch of crooks. (paraphrased) >> >>>> In fact, that's the very ESSENCE of professionalism. Anything less >>>> is fanboy ass-kissing. I've been a good plumber for as long as >>>> you've been breathing, and you're trying to tell me what kind of >>>> pipes the world uses. Ha! *plonk* >>> >>> So tell me, top-quoting boy, how do you feel this enhances your >>> reputation for professionalism, skill and knowledge? :?) >> >> In this crowd of mostly people who don't work in this industry? I couldn't >> care less. Nobody here is hiring. (well, almost nobody, but I'm not moving >> again! ;)) >> >>> I'm not offended and it doesn't really matter to me if you read this >>> or don't, but man, you really need to "take a chill pill" and calm >>> down and learn to accept what you can't change. >> >> "What I can't change", riiiight. Now you're trolling. >> >> And as far as chill pills, I seem to recall your being the one who burst >> out flaming and screaming today, throwing around insults like a spoiled >> little shit. >> >>> You change people's minds by showing them that you understand them >>> and then gradually leading them in the direction of better tools, >>> methods and practices, not by shouting at them and calling them >>> idiots. >> >> And once again you misunderstand. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. >> Here? On THIS list, for free? Are you kidding? I have bills to pay and >> work to do, and I use the very best tools that I've found in my time of >> doing this. Sometimes, when I'm asked for help, or when I'm paid for it, I >> help others use good tools. >> >> And I'm certainly not trying to convince YOU, because you're obviously the >> second biggest Microsoft devotee on this list. Your occasional "I hate it >> too" crap doesn't fool anyone, because in the very next breath you sing its >> praises and proclaim that it's the only thing the world REALLY uses, and >> everyone else is deluded or something. Come ON, man. >> >> But please do consider what I typed above, about technical vs. business >> computing etc etc. All assholeness aside, on both your part and mine, that >> may be the reason why we have such different views on the FACTS (not >> opinions) of the industry. > > I'm not going to bother debating point-by-point with an offensive, > loudmouthed bigot. Who is, incidentally, younger than me and is very > definitely a *lot* less experienced than me in the wider world. > > You clearly know very little about the realities of commercial, home > and business computing in C21. > > I am happy to accept that your statements are entirely accurate about > technical/scientific computing. I have little contact with this area, > but when I do, I mostly see Linux and Mac OS X, and Windows is rare > except in the administrative areas. > > However, the fact remains that technical/scientific computing is a > small niche market. If you have managed to remain within it, good for > you. I am happy for you. > > You are making a cardinal error of logic in thinking that the area > that you specialise in is the whole world, though. It's one I've made > myself. > > For instance, it would be very easy to deduce, from walking around > homes and offices, that x86 computers utterly dominate today. No > mainstream PC manufacturer makes desktops or laptops that run anything > else, except occasionally as sidelines, e.g. Toshiba's AC-100 ARM > netbook. > > But actually, ARM processors outsell all different makes of x86 chips > many times over, perhaps 10? over. > > Embedded computers far outnumber PCs, and in the embedded world, > things like MIPS are still strong, as even are 8-bit devices. One of > the world's most widely-deployed OSs is TRON and iTRON and yet few > have ever heard of it. > > But in the world of the PC, of general-purpose computers, yes, x86 > rules, and in the world of x86, Windows rules. > > Apple with Mac OS X has about 5% of the world market. It's gone lower > but since the launch of the Mac in 1984 it's never gone much higher. > In terms of value, Apple sells very well - in some sectors it's > reached a third of the market, but in terms of units, it's way behind. > > And Linux is a dramatically smaller sector than Apple. It's around a > single percent. > > Yes, I can demonstrate all this conclusively with figures, but I am > not going to go obtaining and giving references for a hostile and > abusive fool who repeatedly calls complete strangers arseholes. > > You are demonstrating the exact sort of prima-donna behaviour that is > [a] strongly associated with Asperger's Syndrome, meaning that you > need to learn some people skills, and [b] is exactly what keeps Linux > in a tiny niche and prevents it from expanding in the world of > business. > > Because the sort of people who build and run elaborate Unix systems > are big, grumpy, bearded boorish males who are very hard to work with > and expect to be treated like gods when they behave like spoiled > schoolchildren. > > Oh, and by the way, just to point out the foolishness of your > mud-slinging, this is typed on my Linux-powered main PC, which like my > laptop, runs Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot". I have never bought an > Microsoft product in my life and never will, and I have bought one > used end-of-life Apple OS and two used Newtons in my entire computing > life, nothing else. > > Yes, I have a dozen or so Macs. Most are 15-20+ years old, because > after all this is a classic-computers collectors' list and it's why > I'm here, and *every single one of them* was free. > -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 19 19:46:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:46:25 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9F6F61.3070903@neurotica.com> On 10/19/2011 01:52 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > Hm. I have no idea about the firmware or hardware rev. level. Could be > realistic that this affects battery life. > > By the way: Someone's got a spare battery pack for my HP 67? Even with dead > NICDs that I could replace. The pack in my calculator was lost years ago so > I have to run it from the original wall-wart all the time; thats a bit > annoying. Tony already spoke to how this can damage a '67...I don't think I have any spare packs; I think I have just one for each of mine, but if I can find any spares when I finish moving I'll stick your name on them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 19 19:47:10 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:47:10 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: [Should have changed Subject: header that sooner, but it will screw threading at this point. --rma] From: Dave McGuire Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:44 PM > On 10/18/2011 04:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same thing. >> (Z, in your list above.) > Hey Rich...If you're suggesting z/Series machines are based on POWER > processors, please provide some references. Everything I've ever seen > about them (including rooting around inside the z890 in the next room) > says they're completely self-contained with their own CPU implementation > family. Lots of people have suggested that modern IBM mainframes are > somehow built around RS/6000 chipsets with different microcode, but have > never been able to back up those claims. > (not trying to be argumentative, and would happily stand corrected, > but I keep hearing people make this statement and then fall silent when > asked to prove it) Hey, Dave, It's not a deeply researched statement. It's based on reportage in the trade press back when the z-, i-, and was it pSeries(?) systems started coming out. It sounds like emulation to me. Also, please note that I used "POWER" as a generic, not distinguishing between the chip set in a PC/RT and those in Watson's blades. I *do* distinguish "POWER" from "POWERpc", since there are specific differences that make the latter the choice for a small system. So if it's POWER6 or POWER7, or whatever, I'm not making that much of a distinction. I don't think anyone has seriously claimed that "RS/6000 chhipsets with different microcode" are involved. There's been a lot of water under the dam since those came out. My understanding is that a multi-level system is in use, with nanocode to create the microcode engine to run the code that makes it look as though you're on hardware compatible with a 360 from 1968, with bums and hacks to bring it past the 31-bit extension of the 24-bit address space into the 64-bit present day. If that's not correct, fine. I'll withdraw my comment. But that's the impression given by IBM's own press releases going back to the introduction of zSeries, and that's whence I drew my conclusions. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 19 19:48:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:48:02 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9F6FC2.1000402@neurotica.com> On 10/19/2011 01:52 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > Hm. I have no idea about the firmware or hardware rev. level. Could be > realistic that this affects battery life. It's got to be something to do with HW or FW revisions. Note to the OP: it appears that not all HP-35S machines have the battery life problem that mine does! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 19 19:49:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:49:20 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E69C2.4000202@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> <4E9E69C2.4000202@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E9F7010.6080008@neurotica.com> On 10/19/2011 02:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > A few years ago before Boeing Surplus went away I lucked out and found > an HP-67 sitting in a shopping cart behind the checkout counter. I > assumed it was something that'd already been sold, but I asked the > cashier and she said that it wasn't. I asked how much, and she said > "How's $5 sound?". Sold! I scrounged around in the cart and found the > A/C adapter as well. I don't often get that lucky :). WOW!! > Card reader needs to be rebuilt but I'm hesitant to open it up since it > involves removing the rear label. This one's in such good cosmetic shape > I worry about damaging it. (And honestly these days I don't know if I'd > use the card reader that much anyway...) I wonder if there's any possibility of the gooey roller oozing onto something else and causing more internal damage. > I also have an HP-65 which appears to be broken beyond repair, alas... That's sad. I may have a parts '65 in FL; when I finish moving I'll look through and put it in the box marked "Josh". -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 19 19:54:16 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:54:16 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110182049.p9IKnvOB011902@floodgap.com> References: from Rich Alderson at "Oct 18, 11 01:15:55 pm" <201110182049.p9IKnvOB011902@floodgap.com> Message-ID: From: Cameron Kaiser Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:50 PM >>> When people wanted to port the IBM OS family to x86 they wrote >>> Hercules to emulate the hardware. The OS doesn't make sense on >>> anything but System/360, 370, 390, Z, etc. It was easier to port >>> the hardware than the software. >> When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the >> same thing. (Z, in your list above.) > I argue this a little. Even though eClipz ostensibly "unified" the > architectures with the POWER6 generation, z10 is descended from POWER6 > but is definitely not POWER. It still implements the z ISA and is still > fully compatible with S/360. See my long response to Dave McGuire on this topic. I'm not sure that what you say here really challenges my base assumption, since an emulator can be fully compatible with the hardware it replaces. I'm not stating that z/OS is running native on a POWER architecture, and I'm willing to be shown that it's not running on top of a hardware emulation layer, but nothing I've heard about it makes that any less probable. Oh, and to answer your later comment, no, I'm not thinking only of the iSeries. ;-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 19 19:55:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:55:10 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> On 10/19/2011 08:36 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm gravitating towards the 50g. Though I like the return to the old > keyboard layout in the 35s, the list of bugs in that calculator has me > annoyed. It's not clear to me how or even if the 35s firmware can be > updated. The 50g's layout looks a lot like a TI, but I can deal with that. A friend (not on this list) told me many months ago about people hacking the 35S. I suspect there's info out there. I seem to recall that the CPU in there is actually based on the 6502! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 19 20:01:57 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:01:57 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9D8503.21840.11D8D70@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com>, <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com>, <4E9D8503.21840.11D8D70@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:54 PM > On 18 Oct 2011 at 13:15, Rich Alderson wrote: >> When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same >> thing. (Z, in your list above.) > Tangentially relevant... > I wonder how many S/360 machines spent their entire operating life > running in 1401 or 7080 emulation mode? Probably very few, if any. Speaking as someone who worked in a shop that ran 1401 emulation as part of the general ledger processing, I can state that no new code was written for the 1401 after 1969 or so, and efforts were made to get as much as possible done on the 360, uh 370, uh Amdahl 470, as possible. I was part of the group of programmers who made the changeover to a new accounting system (commerical software written for the 370 under SVS/MVS); my office mate had the job of doing flowcharts for all of the 1401 programs still in use.[1] 1401 emulation worked, but it wasn't the only thing that got done on the machine, in any shop I ever heard of. [1] Her own fault: She went to our assistant manager one afternoon and complained of not having enough to do. She finished the project 3 years later, shortly before I switched to the systems programming staff. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:10:50 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 02:10:50 +0100 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 20 October 2011 01:47, Rich Alderson wrote: > [Should have changed Subject: header that sooner, but it will screw > ?threading at this point. --rma] > > From: Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:44 PM > >> On 10/18/2011 04:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same thing. >>> (Z, in your list above.) > >> ? ?Hey Rich...If you're suggesting z/Series machines are based on POWER >> processors, please provide some references. ?Everything I've ever seen >> about them (including rooting around inside the z890 in the next room) >> says they're completely self-contained with their own CPU implementation >> family. ?Lots of people have suggested that modern IBM mainframes are >> somehow built around RS/6000 chipsets with different microcode, but have >> never been able to back up those claims. > >> ? ?(not trying to be argumentative, and would happily stand corrected, >> but I keep hearing people make this statement and then fall silent when >> asked to prove it) > > Hey, Dave, > > It's not a deeply researched statement. ?It's based on reportage in the > trade press back when the z-, i-, and was it pSeries(?) systems started > coming out. ?It sounds like emulation to me. > > Also, please note that I used "POWER" as a generic, not distinguishing > between the chip set in a PC/RT and those in Watson's blades. ?I *do* > distinguish "POWER" from "POWERpc", since there are specific differences > that make the latter the choice for a small system. ?So if it's POWER6 > or POWER7, or whatever, I'm not making that much of a distinction. > > I don't think anyone has seriously claimed that "RS/6000 chhipsets with > different microcode" are involved. ?There's been a lot of water under the > dam since those came out. ?My understanding is that a multi-level system > is in use, with nanocode to create the microcode engine to run the code > that makes it look as though you're on hardware compatible with a 360 from > 1968, with bums and hacks to bring it past the 31-bit extension of the > 24-bit address space into the 64-bit present day. > > If that's not correct, fine. ?I'll withdraw my comment. ?But that's the > impression given by IBM's own press releases going back to the introduction > of zSeries, and that's whence I drew my conclusions. At risk of an "AOL" type post, that was my impression too - although others have contradicted me since. I've not seen anything cast-iron either way, though. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 19 20:12:04 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> <20111019161552.L835@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111019180518.E835@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Liam Proven wrote: > I once thought I knew it very well, but that was 15y ago. It has grown > vastly and since I have never had any use for any of the new features, > such as pivot tables, my knowledge has stagnated. > But was I understanding correctly earlier? That 1-2-3 could handle > complex numbers and do maths operations on them, whereas Excel can't? Not that I know of. Maybe? My book citation (and maybe Tony's request for complex numbers) was merely to illustrate that it would be presumptuous to assume that our needs would be "reasonable". From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:16:17 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:16:17 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?A friend (not on this list) told me many months ago about people hacking > the 35S. ?I suspect there's info out there. ?I seem to recall that the CPU > in there is actually based on the 6502! > Hope this link works... http://www.eetimes.com/design/embedded/4007500/Tear-Down-Scientific-calculator-boils-design-down-to-two-ICs From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Oct 19 20:54:31 2011 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:54:31 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: , <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4E9F7F57.5040909@ptdprolog.net> On 10/19/11 18:54, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > you're kidding right? > excel is a joke. 1-2-3 was much better, > quattro was even better > > sadly both have been crushed by monopoly of m$ > > is quattro old enough to be considered classic computing yet? :) > My favorite spreadsheet was Mesa2, which was originally written for NextStep by Athena Design, but was ported to OS/2 in the mid-90s. I never used Excel, and didn't know its limitations until I had to do a project transferring 100K+ records from a VSAM file on a mainframe to an Excel file for a client to access on a PC. It was easy to do in Mesa2. I built the file of over 100K records and saved it in Excel format per the client request. But they couldn't read it because Microsoft had a 64K record limit at the time. I had to split the file, which was stupid, but at the time the only spreadsheet I knew of that could handle it was Mesa 2. But it is a windows world and people will just accept anything Microsoft dictates. I heard that eventually Microsoft upped the number of records excel could handle, but it by then it was way past when the client needed it. Mark From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Oct 19 21:05:24 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:05:24 -0700 Subject: HP-65 repair (was Re: hp calculators) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9F81E4.9030106@mail.msu.edu> On 10/19/2011 2:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I also have an HP-65 which appears to be broken beyond repair, alas... > You;'ll be able to get an unoffocial schematic from HPCC, but unless it's > a PSU problem or you have a donor machine you are probably right about it > being beyond repair. The logic board contains 3 ROM chips and a 44-pin > metal can which cotnaisn 5 silicon dice (Control&Timing, > Arithmetic&Registers, 2 RAMs, card reader interface and clock buffer). > Enough signals are brought out to be able ot tell which has fialed in > most cases, but that's not a lot of use -) Yeah, it's been awhile since I went over it (using the unofficial schematic on HPCC) but I recall that the power looked fine but I was getting no clock signal at all. The 65 powers up and a few segments on the right hand side light up, but that's it. I seem to recall that the custom chips on the display PCB generate the clock signals, but I don't have any spares so I have no idea if replacing them would fix the problem... - Josh > > -tony > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Oct 19 21:07:41 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:07:41 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9F7010.6080008@neurotica.com> References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> <4E9E4416.50804@mail.msu.edu> <4E9E504A.7020409@neurotica.com> <4E9E69C2.4000202@mail.msu.edu> <4E9F7010.6080008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9F826D.2080705@mail.msu.edu> On 10/19/2011 5:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/19/2011 02:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> A few years ago before Boeing Surplus went away I lucked out and found >> an HP-67 sitting in a shopping cart behind the checkout counter. I >> assumed it was something that'd already been sold, but I asked the >> cashier and she said that it wasn't. I asked how much, and she said >> "How's $5 sound?". Sold! I scrounged around in the cart and found the >> A/C adapter as well. I don't often get that lucky :). > > WOW!! > >> Card reader needs to be rebuilt but I'm hesitant to open it up since it >> involves removing the rear label. This one's in such good cosmetic shape >> I worry about damaging it. (And honestly these days I don't know if I'd >> use the card reader that much anyway...) > > I wonder if there's any possibility of the gooey roller oozing onto > something else and causing more internal damage. If it's anything like the layout of the 65 inside, it'll probably be OK unless it goes completely liquid :). > >> I also have an HP-65 which appears to be broken beyond repair, alas... > > That's sad. I may have a parts '65 in FL; when I finish moving I'll > look through and put it in the box marked "Josh". That would be awesome :). Thanks! - Josh > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 21:38:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:38:10 -0700 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com>, <4E9D8503.21840.11D8D70@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E9F2722.2009.1F9F479@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2011 at 18:01, Rich Alderson wrote: > Probably very few, if any. Speaking as someone who worked in a shop > that ran 1401 emulation as part of the general ledger processing, The USAF spent much of the 1970s running their logistics system on S/360 systems running in 7080 emulation mode. Heck, they still had 7080s until about 1974. Most of the code was written in 7080 COBOL with patched binary decks and 7080 autocoder. A really horrible mess with little documentation. I've even heard of nested emulations: 701 emulation by a 1401 running on an S/360. I suspect sine state DMVs and other offices were just as bad. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 19 22:40:10 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:40:10 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E9F981A.2090101@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > A friend (not on this list) told me many months ago about > people hacking the 35S. I suspect there's info out there. > I seem to recall that the CPU in there is actually based > on the 6502! It uses a microcontroller from GeneralPlus (formerly SunPlus) with a 6502-compatible core. It would be extremely difficult to hack it, because the firmware is in on-chip masked ROM, and the part is mounted chip-on-board under a blob of epoxy. I'm not sure that even Tony would dispute that it is not a user-serviceable part. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 19 23:42:07 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: from Rich Alderson at "Oct 19, 11 05:54:16 pm" Message-ID: <201110200442.p9K4g7pB009896@floodgap.com> > > > When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the > > > same thing. (Z, in your list above.) > > > > I argue this a little. Even though eClipz ostensibly "unified" the > > architectures with the POWER6 generation, z10 is descended from POWER6 > > but is definitely not POWER. It still implements the z ISA and is still > > fully compatible with S/360. > > See my long response to Dave McGuire on this topic. > > I'm not sure that what you say here really challenges my base assumption, > since an emulator can be fully compatible with the hardware it replaces. > I'm not stating that z/OS is running native on a POWER architecture, and > I'm willing to be shown that it's not running on top of a hardware > emulation layer, but nothing I've heard about it makes that any less > probable. This is a bit like saying that Core microarch is only emulating x86 because of the underlying microops. IBM only unified the design in their chips. They are based on similar internal design and z10 is derived from POWER6, but there is no "layer" turning z ISA into Power ISA. It's z, through and through. Wikipedia has a nice little article on it, but pull the IBM docs for yourself. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You'd PAY to know what you REALLY think. -- J. R. "Bob" Dobbs, 1961 -------- From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Oct 20 00:12:50 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:12:50 -0700 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... Message-ID: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I've been assembling from source code most of the HP diagnostics for the HP2100 and HP1000 systems. To do so, I used Eric Smith's original "asm21" - and found that a number of diagnostics didn't assemble correctly. I updated it - and subsequently Terry Newton joined the project and made more updates. Between us, over the course of several months, we've managed to debug asm21 to the place where we have not found any more errors in several additional months of use. asm21 runs under both *NIX and Windows environments as it is written entirely in Perl. Te get a copy, do an anonymous FTP to bickleywest.com and cd to the asm21 directory. Download (binary) asm21_107.zip If you're using Firefox, Chrome or Opera, simply use: ftp://bickleywest.com/asm21 to get to the directory, then right click on asm21_107.zip to download it. BTW: Terry created a great testing environment - scripts and software that allowed us to assemble source code and subsequently check asm21's binary output against HP's binaries which had been created under one of their OSs. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 20 01:04:48 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:04:48 -0700 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... In-Reply-To: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Hi When I got my 21MX box, I quickly wrote a disassembler and assembler in Forth. I used these to fiddle some but not used it for some time. It of course has all the quarkiness of a Forth assembler. Being Forth, it is like a macro assembler on steroids. I'd expect a perl assembler to have similar capabilities. Dwight > From: lbickley at bickleywest.com > > I've been assembling from source code most of the HP diagnostics for the HP2100 and HP1000 systems. To do so, I used Eric Smith's original "asm21" - and found that a number of diagnostics didn't assemble correctly. I updated it - and subsequently Terry Newton joined the project and made more updates. Between us, over the course of several months, we've managed to debug asm21 to the place where we have not found any more errors in several additional months of use. > > asm21 runs under both *NIX and Windows environments as it is written entirely in Perl. > > Te get a copy, do an anonymous FTP to bickleywest.com and cd to the asm21 directory. Download (binary) asm21_107.zip > > If you're using Firefox, Chrome or Opera, simply use: > > ftp://bickleywest.com/asm21 > > to get to the directory, then right click on asm21_107.zip to download it. > > BTW: Terry created a great testing environment - scripts and software that allowed us to assemble source code and subsequently check asm21's binary output against HP's binaries which had been created under one of their OSs. > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley, AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 20 01:18:49 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:18:49 +0200 Subject: Threading by Mail header [Was: Dennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: References: <4E9C91B0.8070404@arachelian.com> <201110181143.p9IBhGVQ013993@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111020061849.GA30297@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 05:47:10PM -0700, Rich Alderson wrote: > [Should have changed Subject: header that sooner, but it will screw > threading at this point. --rma] The two mail clients I use take advantage of the "References:" and "In-Reply-To:" headers. (Possibly also "Thread-topic:" and "Thread-index:" which seems to be Microsofts "standard"). This means that changing the topic doesn't matter much for threading which is both good an bad. It's good when you want to see where discussion orginated from to get som background. But it is bad when someone uses "Reply" to create an entirely different discussion. I urge anyone to not use "Reply" unless you intend the mail to be sorted under some unrelated thread for a subset of readers (e.g. Me). Cheers, Pontus. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 12:34:10 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319045650.29805.YahooMailClassic@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Ian King wrote: > > Is this page: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html > > > > not working for you guys?? There's a box for that > at the bottom of the grey > > area on the right. Thanks. But I would have thought that the bloomin' FAQ file/page would have been updated since 1997!!! > But Vince, that doesn't let you make a snarky political > statement!? :-)? -- Ian I've been on the list for around 6-7 years. I've made a few comments that would be considered off-topic. Others have also. It's to be expected. I haven't been on the internet in a few days, and amazed to find a thread (and not an altogether tiny one) devoted to this very subject. For sometime now my posts have been monitored, and not a few times deleted. Sometimes the reason was if the comment (and having nothing at all to do sex, politics, or religion) were posted, the list would be "cluttered up". HA! I was thinking of leaving, but I'm having 2nd thoughts... Tony posts a lot, but I'll bet his posts are 95% on topic (if not more often), so someone complaining about his posts is just looking for any reason to complain (and complaints somehow will even pertain to someone doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing). He might be a bit long winded at times, but who's perfect, and he's basically a good guy. If it was that he and a bunch of other Brits excluded everyone else from their conversations, talking about their nasty Nimbus 'puters LOL LOL, then I would say there's a reason to be critical. But nothing like that is even remotely true, of course. I do not see the reason to criticize someone for little or no reason. And...who knew???...you're not forced to read anyone's posts. Perhaps that should be entered into the near to be updated FAQ file. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 12:50:07 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4E9CC96A.8090501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1319046607.18601.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> what about DEC Rainbow monitors? What about just introducing some bleach and hoping capillary action pulls it in? --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 8:33 PM > On 10/17/11 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > Does anyone have specific experience with addressing > this problem on this machine? > > The procedure is removal of the RTV between the safety > glass and CRT separating the two by > cutting through the RTV with a hot wire, then reattachment > at the corners. > > There are some examples on the web. > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 17:30:37 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Your emails on CCtalk In-Reply-To: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <1319063437.59080.YahooMailClassic@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Andrew, I'm moderated, largely because I used to 'puter', and 'lol' a lot. And was a general rube. And a fight or 2 I got into w/another lister. I'm not surprised. It's all a big joke anyway the way I see. Thanks for keeping me informed though. --- On Wed, 10/19/11, Andrew Burton wrote: > From: Andrew Burton > Subject: Your emails on CCtalk > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 5:51 PM > > Hi, > > *off-list reply* > > > Not sure if anyone has mentioned this to you yet (on or > offlist), but a > bunch of your replies from today (Weds 19th October) had > the wrong date on > them! > An example header is below. Somehow you have gone back in > time 9 months!! ;) > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:56 PM > Subject: Re: old clocks > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 17:31:35 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Your emails on CCtalk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319063495.70591.YahooMailClassic@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> NO I GUESS IT WASN'T LOL LOL LOL LOL --- On Wed, 10/19/11, Liam Proven wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Subject: Re: Your emails on CCtalk > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 6:19 PM > On 19 October 2011 22:51, Andrew > Burton > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > *off-list reply* > > > > > > Not sure if anyone has mentioned this to you yet (on > or offlist), but a > > bunch of your replies from today (Weds 19th October) > had the wrong date on > > them! > > An example header is below. Somehow you have gone back > in time 9 months!! ;) > > > > > > Regards, > > Andrew B > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tony Duell" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:56 PM > > Subject: Re: old clocks > > Er, it wasn't off-list, you know... > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk > ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + > 44 870-9151419 > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com > ? ICQ: 73187508 > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 19:11:31 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319069491.4104.YahooMailClassic@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> get a 50g. It has some sort of ARM processor and emulates the 48/49 series. It's a little flimsy compared to the 49g (which is bit flimsier compared to the 48's, and the 49g has rubber keys, which doesn't bother me really). The 50g is similar in feel to the TI 86 (probably intended, I think the key layout even mirrors the 86 closely). what, you don't have an HP calc yet? Do you have a pulse? Personally I don't use them as rpn calcs. I did 10 years ago when I had a 48? for a while. What I can't stand is the flushing of the stack or whatever happens that locks up my 49g for 2-3 seconds. It's a real hemorrhoid. The 50g does it too I imagine, haven't had it out in a while. TI has that new color calc though. I am tempted... Although I like my 49g and 50g a lot, a 48g/g+/gx is a calculator you can really appreciate. You have to hold one in your hand. Honestly I do not believe any TI graphing calc was built like that series (and I used to have a HP 20s also that was comparable in "feel". Still got my TI 86 too). You just feel so powerful w/it in your hands, like you could throw it at someone like an oriental weapon. They're outdated, the routines are slow by comparison. You'd be proud to own one though, as I'm sure the guy who bought a new-still-sealed 48gx for about 650$ is. Used units on eBay have come down somewhat recently though. I should have kept my old one. I am tempted to buy another 48...away Satan LOL. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 12:55:46 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319046946.73588.YahooMailClassic@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/18/11, Brian Lanning wrote: > Hi Vince.? Thanks for the link I didn't know > about.? In the mean time, > perhaps this would help: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_syndrome Help who? One might conclude that your behavior is anti-social. Hell I don't know any of the rules. You'd think I had learned some by now. But they never did send me to finishing school :( From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Wed Oct 19 09:00:08 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:00:08 +1100 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19/10/2011, at 9:31 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > It's still not too hard to find a HP-25. Retrofit the rechargeables and you're set. Well I found mine in my Dad's garage (I thought it'd been tossed out years ago). How hard is it to replace the batteries? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From mikelee at tdh.com Wed Oct 19 15:27:21 2011 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:27:21 -0500 Subject: Free! HP Netserver LX Server P-Pro Parts Message-ID: <4E9F32A9.90901@tdh.com> Not all that "classic" but figured I'd make the offer in case someone needed pieces or parts. Located near the Chicago area, willing to ship parts and I highly doubt anyone would want the whole thing. You however might want HP SCA drive trays (also works in the other HP storage stuff the same age), scsi/sca backplanes (6 drive slots per side, actually quite nice drive cages if you wanted to do something with that), power supplies, proc or mem boards or anything else. It's a mini-fridge sized multi-proc Pentium Pro server with 12 half height drive bays, 3 power supplies, etc. One last offer for parts from this beast before I part it out and scrap it. I'm keeping the basics memory, procs and drives, but I can be convinced to part with those as well if you have a need. Nice machine for its time, but the 1kW/hr power use and physical size is convincing me to get rid of it. Once again, located in the Chicago area. Crossposted, so first come first serve and closer the better. Mike From doug at doughq.com Wed Oct 19 18:20:08 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:20:08 +1100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I read once that the creation of the spreadsheet is the basic trigger for the loss of leadership skills at the helms of most companies. The logic went something along the lines of ' spreadsheets allowed decisions to be justified, not based on what was good (tm), instead of having a sound financial basis. Resulting the the removal of decision making powers by visionaries, into the hands of the bean counters who should have been making sure that there was money in the bank." So - in that context, why would an engineer ever need the tool of a back room bean counter, who has been pushed into the executive offices?? Doug On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > you're kidding right? > excel is a joke. 1-2-3 was much better, > quattro was even better > > sadly both have been crushed by monopoly of m$ > > is quattro old enough to be considered classic computing yet? :) > > > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:43:53 +0100 > > Subject: Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) > > From: lproven at gmail.com > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > > On 19 October 2011 23:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. > > >> > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could > ever > > >> > need. > > > > > > Read the book "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument > > > Interfacing"; Louis M. Mezei, Prentice Hall, 1989 > > > ISBN[10]: 0-13-519885-2 > > > > > > 'Twould be presumptuous to specify "everything you could ever need". > > > Some of us have unusual needs, that you might consider bizarre. > > > > > > "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you get > what > > > you need"?? > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to > a > > >> serious qyestion : > > >> Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex > > >> numbers in the cells and operate on them? > > >> Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and > > >> define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I > did > > >> it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit > > >> analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet > > >> handles them as well as my HP calculators. > > > > > > > > > I'm far from expert - I don't even know how to get Excel to TELL ME > which > > > numbers are float, which cells (particularly floats) are calculated > > > fron other floats, or even which have been rounded. > > > > > > I have used Visicalc, Lotus, and Excel for a number of "off-label" > uses, > > > such as small flat-file databases, etc. A lot of my CGA and MDA > monitors > > > had burnt-in "Lotus L"s. > > > > > > It is amazingly versatile, but certainly NOT "everything that you could > > > ever need" > > > > OK, I defer. I was not aware of anything 1-2-3 could do that Excel > > could not, but hey, apparently there is. I was wrong. Sorry. > > > > -- > > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 > > > > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Oct 20 02:28:56 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:28:56 +0100 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <1319046607.18601.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4E9CC96A.8090501@bitsavers.org> <1319046607.18601.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have fixed a few Rainbow monitors suffering from screen mould. It may be crude but I just removed the outer glass by breaking it into parts and then peeled off the offending plastic layer. The tube then goes back into the case and you end up with a narrow gap between the bezel and the tube. If you are not used to working with glass and CRT's then this way is not for you Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: 19 October 2011 18:50 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot what about DEC Rainbow monitors? What about just introducing some bleach and hoping capillary action pulls it in? --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 8:33 PM > On 10/17/11 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > Does anyone have specific experience with addressing > this problem on this machine? > > The procedure is removal of the RTV between the safety > glass and CRT separating the two by > cutting through the RTV with a hot wire, then reattachment > at the corners. > > There are some examples on the web. > > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 02:49:21 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:49:21 +0100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:20 AM, Doug Jackson wrote: > I read once that the creation of the spreadsheet is the basic trigger for > the loss of leadership skills at the helms of most companies. > > The logic went something along the lines of ' spreadsheets allowed decisions > to be justified, not based on what was good (tm), instead of having a sound > financial basis. ?Resulting the the removal of decision making powers by > visionaries, into the hands of the bean counters who should have been making > sure that there was money in the bank." > > So - in that context, why would an engineer ever need the tool of a back > room bean counter, who has been pushed into the executive offices?? > > Doug I have used spreadsheets in design many times one example is the spreadsheet for parametric gear design embedded in a Solidworks generic gear design, just select the tooth qty and module of the gear and it is fully modeled. And thousands of times instead of a scrap of paper because rework and fiddling numbers to get a design right is so much faster and you can save it for later reuse. Dave Caroline > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> you're kidding right? >> excel is a joke. 1-2-3 was much better, >> quattro was even better >> >> sadly both have been crushed by monopoly of m$ >> >> is quattro old enough to be considered classic computing yet? :) >> >> > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:43:53 +0100 >> > Subject: Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) >> > From: lproven at gmail.com >> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> ?> >> > On 19 October 2011 23:27, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > >> > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. >> > >> > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could >> ever >> > >> > need. >> > > >> > > Read the book "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument >> > > Interfacing"; Louis M. Mezei, Prentice Hall, 1989 >> > > ISBN[10]: 0-13-519885-2 >> > > >> > > 'Twould be presumptuous to specify "everything you could ever need". >> > > Some of us have unusual needs, that you might consider bizarre. >> > > >> > > "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you get >> what >> > > you need"?? >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to >> a >> > >> serious qyestion : >> > >> Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex >> > >> numbers in the cells and operate on them? >> > >> Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and >> > >> define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I >> did >> > >> it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit >> > >> analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet >> > >> handles them as well as my HP calculators. >> > > >> > > >> > > I'm far from expert - I don't even know how to get Excel to TELL ME >> which >> > > numbers are float, which cells (particularly floats) are calculated >> > > fron other floats, or even which have been rounded. >> > > >> > > I have used Visicalc, Lotus, and Excel for a number of "off-label" >> uses, >> > > such as small flat-file databases, etc. ?A lot of my CGA and MDA >> monitors >> > > had burnt-in "Lotus L"s. >> > > >> > > It is amazingly versatile, but certainly NOT "everything that you could >> > > ever need" >> > >> > OK, I defer. I was not aware of anything 1-2-3 could do that Excel >> > could not, but hey, apparently there is. I was wrong. Sorry. >> > >> > -- >> > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven >> > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com >> > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 >> > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 >> > >> >> > > > > -- > Doug Jackson > VK1ZDJ > http://www.dougswordclock.com/ ?-< My clocks > http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities > From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Oct 20 05:23:59 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:23:59 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 01:19:51PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > > I would like to be able to: > > * mark a variable as being an approximation, and with how precise it is; > THAT is already present. "float" in C means that it is an approximation > to 24 binary significant digits. No, it tells you that it can *represent no more than* 24 binary significant digits. float pi = 3.1f; /* close enough for government work */ that the *type* can have 24 significant binary digits doesn't mean that the *data* has 24 significant binary digits. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders" EINE KIRCHE! EIN KREDO! EIN PAPST! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 20 07:58:18 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:58:18 -0500 Subject: help me get off this list References: <1319045650.29805.YahooMailClassic@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Chris M wrote.... > Thanks. But I would have thought that the bloomin' FAQ file/page would > have been updated since 1997!!! Sounds like you're volunteering. > I do not see the reason to criticize someone for little or no reason. > And...who knew???...you're not forced to read anyone's posts. Perhaps that > should be entered into the near to be updated FAQ file. See above. It's not the wild-west here, nor does "anything go". If it gets out of hand, I - or other list members - will offer a nudge in the right direction. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 20 08:20:11 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:20:11 -0500 Subject: pdp 11/70 boards available Message-ID: <72765CD3253D40A0B556CBB6205D9267@osa.local> There is a complete set of PDP 11/70 boards available in the UK, apparently free for pickup. If someone wants them, let me know off-list. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 20 08:22:55 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:22:55 -0500 Subject: vintage work available Message-ID: <584D1F1160DB4745A528B27D60D612EC@osa.local> A PCB manufacturer in San Diego, CA is currently using PDP 11/04 boxes for Advanced Controls Trudrill machines. They are looking for sources for repair, support, and/or replacement parts. They believe that they could also switch to 11/05, 11/24, or 11/34 boxes with the same application. If anyone is interested and able to provide this, email me off-list for contact details. Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 20 08:31:44 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:31:44 -0500 Subject: more dec stuff available Message-ID: <50FF96B744AC4817BF05A035FFA9CA28@osa.local> It was written.... I have a number of PDP-11 software manuals, processor manuals, a few books & even a few software mag tapes from when I had worked at Digital Equipment. I also have a number of processor manuals & some schematics for DEC System 10 & 20. Would you be interested in them or know someone who would like them? The system 10 & 20 schematics piqued my interest. If anyone wants to follow up on this, email me off list for contact details. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 20 08:48:13 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:48:13 -0500 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: That's really awesome Lyle. I had started the same project a few years ago, got half way through it and never finished it. My aim was to produce a single CD that contained source, object, and manual for each diagnostic in the library. Glad to see someone working on this! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 20 09:20:25 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:20:25 -0500 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <446A9DF3DB42484CA6D185DDBF5BFD86@osa.local> FYI - I think where I ran in to headscratching on the project was... .it was important for the diagnostics to show .lst files in the assembled version, as it was incredibly handy when running the diags to be able to pick up the object listing and see exactly what instructions were at what address and what should be going on at that point in time. And I made great headway till I got to the diagnostics which were relocatable, and this rendered the object listing "less useful". Hitting that mild bump-in-the-road caused me to move to other projects ;) So many bits, so little media :> J From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 20 09:37:55 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:37:55 -0500 Subject: pdp 11/70 boards available References: <72765CD3253D40A0B556CBB6205D9267@osa.local> Message-ID: <68DECDCF10454C469E19039210C31E52@osa.local> They are spoken for. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Oct 20 10:17:13 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:17:13 -0700 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... In-Reply-To: <446A9DF3DB42484CA6D185DDBF5BFD86@osa.local> References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <446A9DF3DB42484CA6D185DDBF5BFD86@osa.local> Message-ID: <201110200817.13792.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 20 October 2011, Jay West wrote: > FYI - I think where I ran in to headscratching on the project was... .it was > important for the diagnostics to show .lst files in the assembled version, > as it was incredibly handy when running the diags to be able to pick up the > object listing and see exactly what instructions were at what address and > what should be going on at that point in time. And I made great headway till > I got to the diagnostics which were relocatable, and this rendered the > object listing "less useful". Hitting that mild bump-in-the-road caused me > to move to other projects ;) Unfortunately, at this juncture, "asm21" only handles absolute. The good news is that with rare exception almost all of the standalone diagnostics are absolute. The most complex tasks we had to deal with were 1) HP software that sometimes uses invalid structure - most specifically with regard to the "OCT" mnemonic, 2) adding/fixing multiword instructions such as those in FP, EIG, DMS, etc. and 3) adding pseudo ops used by HP in their diagnostics such as RAM, byte pseudo ops, etc. I have found that having the listings of the diagnostics is a must. In addition, most of the diagnostics have a good summary on how to run the diagnostic at the beginning of the listing. The summary is "cryptic". But once you understand them, they are generally all you need. BTW: "asm21" also creates a nice cross reference listing by default. Cheers, Lyle > > So many bits, so little media :> > > J > > > -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 10:43:27 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:43:27 -0700 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... In-Reply-To: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:12 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I've been assembling from source code most of the HP diagnostics for the HP2100 and HP1000 systems. ?To do so, I used Eric Smith's original "asm21" - and found that a number of diagnostics didn't assemble correctly. I updated it - and subsequently Terry Newton joined the project and made more updates. Between us, over the course of several months, we've managed to debug asm21 to the place where we have not found any more errors in several additional months of use. > Do you have copies of the machine readable source for the diagnostics? I have seen the scanned hardcopy listings of the source but don't think I've noticed copies of the original machine readable source on the net. Did this come from the collection of software Al and the museum acquired from HP, or from some other source? One of these days I'll finally get around to running the diagnostics on my 2113E and 2117F. -Glen From oe5ewl at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 11:16:24 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:16:24 +0200 Subject: more dec stuff available In-Reply-To: <50FF96B744AC4817BF05A035FFA9CA28@osa.local> References: <50FF96B744AC4817BF05A035FFA9CA28@osa.local> Message-ID: I'd be interested in the tapes if nobody else wants them. BTW: If somebody stumbles upon a 9track drive in central europe (preferably Austria)... Mine gets broken more and more and I could need a "new" one in near future. Even a broken unit which is repairable... Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/10/20 Jay West > It was written.... > > I have a number of PDP-11 software manuals, processor manuals, a few books > & even a few software mag tapes from when I had worked at Digital Equipment. > I also have a number of processor manuals & some schematics for DEC System > 10 & 20. Would you be interested in them or know someone who would like > them? > > The system 10 & 20 schematics piqued my interest. If anyone wants to follow > up on this, email me off list for contact details. > > J > From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 20 12:29:19 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:29:19 +0000 Subject: help me get off this list References: <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110201729.p9KHTOsV004386@ims-m12.mx.aol.com> On 10/18/2011 08:02 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> And I would much rather read emails by you and Tony and Chuck and Dave >> McGuire. >> >> Funny, this list is about classic computing but some people don't >> appreciate the old timers who are classics. For me having you guys (ok, >> Dave is a youngin') around is the best part of this list. There is an >> important period in computing before I got started in the late 1970s that >> I don't know enough about, and I enjoy hearing comments from the guys who >> were there. > I'm old enough to appreciate being called a youngin' once in a > while. ;) I'm 42, been computing since I was ~12, doing it for money > since I was ~14. Don't paint me as too much of a newbie; I used most of > what we talk about on this list at work when it was modern! ;) > > -Dave I know that, I put you on the A-list! It was not painting you as a newbie, it was complement. And I am not much older than you. From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 20 13:03:00 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:03:00 +0000 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died References: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> From: Dave McGuire On 10/18/2011 04:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: Vintage Coder wrote: >>> When people wanted to port the IBM OS family to x86 they wrote Hercules >>> to emulate the hardware. The OS doesn't make sense on anything but >>> System/360, 370, 390, Z, etc. It was easier to port the hardware than >>> the software. >> >> When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same >> thing. (Z, in your list above.) I have no idea what you mean with this statement. AIX and OS/400 got ported to POWER but they were never based on S/360 or its descendants. AIX as a UNIX-like OS was probably never tightly coupled with the hardware, so it could be ported easily. I believe OS/400 started out with S/34 and 36 and grew into iOS now running on POWER. I don't know how tightly coupled those OS were or how hard it was to port but none of the MVS could ever run on anything but the original architecture they were designed for. The phrase "IBM OS family" without further context is understood to mean the MVS family of which Z/OS is a member, because MVS is IBM's flagship OS and the oldest OS still in production and being marketed and developed as far as I know. With reference to your other post, I understand the difference between public domain and open source and GPL and all that stuff. I'm not going to attempt discuss the issue any further since certain people on this list seem to make careers out of nitpicking and arguing for no obvious reason. Have a ball, you're in my killfile now, but don't let that stop you since I know you like hearing yourself talk. On this specific issue so far none of you guys have any more facts than I do about what happened *when* it happened. I admit, I wasn't there and I was saying what I heard and read. Could be it was wrong, but the world isn't going to come to an end because of my post and it could have been discussed in a friendly way instead of jumping on people. If somebody was actually a sysprog *at the time in an IBM shop* and can tell what was released and when they started copyrighting things, then great. My latest info is MVS 3.8 was the last non-copyrighted version and after that it was strictly for licensed customers and source was generally not available. It is not clear people were permitted to give it away when they got copies from IBM on earlier releases. That's just more useless conjecture. Now for Dave's comment: > Hey Rich...If you're suggesting z/Series machines are based on POWER > processors, please provide some references. Everything I've ever seen > about them (including rooting around inside the z890 in the next room) > says they're completely self-contained with their own CPU implementation > family. Lots of people have suggested that modern IBM mainframes are > somehow built around RS/6000 chipsets with different microcode, but have >never been able to back up those claims. > > (not trying to be argumentative, and would happily stand corrected, > but I keep hearing people make this statement and then fall silent when >asked to prove it) > > -Dave Dave, as you thought, System Z is not based on POWER and has nothing to do with it. There are a lot of people who don't know what a mainframe is and make the mistake of thinking a big server (POWER) equals mainframe. I have heard this before also, but never from anybody who knows anything. All the systems I listed are based on a common, evolving architecture that is totally different from, and incompatible with POWER. Just look at the processor manuals for POWER (which is just a standard by the way, and anybody can make one) and System Z which IBM actually makes. There's nothing in common. From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 20 13:04:21 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:04:21 +0000 Subject: open FTP index References: <4E9D89A7.15491.12FAE20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110201804.p9KI4RKC017070@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> From: "Chuck Guzis" > I tried the search, but I still can't find a copy of WATFOR77 on the > web. It's amazing that it seems to have vanished completely. If it helps I know where you can find a copy of WATFIV for S/360 and S/370. From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 20 13:11:14 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:11:14 +0000 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9E34F8.1090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110201811.p9KIBLjR019271@ims-m14.mx.aol.com> From: Dave McGuire > When did the build quality start to drop? I have a 35S, which is > great but the build quality isn't even close to real HP. It also chews > through batteries like there's no tomorrow. (2x CR2032) The next most > recent one I have is a 48SX, which is very nicely built, so it seems to > me the decline happened somewhere in between. I haven't seen a "new" HP in a long time but I can tell you as somebody who bought a new HP-67 around 1981 that quality started dropping with the LCD models. I remember the HP-41 had come out just as I decided on my 67. I saw both at the Princeton U store and the 41 was nowhere as nice and felt very cheap by comparison. I realize saying that about a 41 today sounds odd because of how good they are compared to newer stuff, but that should tell you how much things have changed. I had some old TIs (TI Programmer, other misc. models) which were all very functional but *their* build quality made the HP-41 look like a Cadillac. From spedraja at ono.com Thu Oct 20 13:23:28 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:23:28 +0200 Subject: open FTP index In-Reply-To: <201110201804.p9KI4RKC017070@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9D89A7.15491.12FAE20@cclist.sydex.com> <201110201804.p9KI4RKC017070@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Hercules ? SPc 2011/10/20 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > > I tried the search, but I still can't find a copy of WATFOR77 on the > > web. It's amazing that it seems to have vanished completely. > > If it helps I know where you can find a copy of WATFIV for S/360 and S/370. > From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 20 13:31:40 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:31:40 +0000 Subject: open FTP index In-Reply-To: References: <4E9D89A7.15491.12FAE20@cclist.sydex.com> <201110201804.p9KI4RKC017070@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <333483580-1319135494-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-891368625-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Well yeah you will need Hercules to run a copy of MVS unless you have a real machine and OS. -----Original Message----- From: SPC Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:23:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: open FTP index Hercules ? SPc 2011/10/20 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > > I tried the search, but I still can't find a copy of WATFOR77 on the > > web. It's amazing that it seems to have vanished completely. > > If it helps I know where you can find a copy of WATFIV for S/360 and S/370. > From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Oct 20 13:36:22 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:36:22 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EA06A26.1070702@attglobal.net> On 10/20/2011 02:03 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I believe OS/400 started out with S/34 and 36 and grew into iOS now > running on POWER. Actually, OS/400 started out with CPF on the S/38. Barry From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Oct 20 13:47:29 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:47:29 +0200 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9E313B.7050604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20111020204729.f55ff437.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:47:32 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Hh,and the hP41 runs on N cells too. Is this a problem? I got my 41 about 10 years ago and it is still on its first set of batteries. OK, I don't use any peripherals, especially the card reader and I use it only a once or twice a week for a few minutes. But still, a N / LR1 cell is 0,81 EUR at a well knowen german electronics supplier. That's not that bad. On the original question: If you don't need the special featurs of the HP49 / HP50 I would go for a HP48S/SX/G/GX. I bought a new HP48SX in 1992 for 550,-DM. A lot of money for me at that time. But I _never_ regreted it. This HP48SX got me through my A levels and accompanied my EE / CS studies. It is on my desk in front of me right now. It still works like on its first day. The HP48S/SX/G/GX are the last calculators build in true HP quality tradition. The HP49 is POS. It is made like a cheap remote control. The keybord is an insult and it will not last very long. A shame for HP. The HP50 seems to be better, but is still far behind "HP quality". The HP35s seems to be OK if you don't need graphing. Or a used HP28s or HP16c, ... The HP16c has a nice formfactor. This is my one and only problem with the HP48: It is quite big. I also own a HP45. Its batteries are dead, I just use it on occation with the wall wart. It is about as old as I am (38) and modulo the dead bateries it still works well. (Somthing that I can't say for myself. ;-( ) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 20 13:51:47 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:51:47 -0700 Subject: Can we PLEASE change this subject line? (was RE: Dennis Ritchie has died) Message-ID: It makes me depressed all over again each time I see it.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry L. Kline [blkline at attglobal.net] Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 11:36 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Dennis Ritchie has died On 10/20/2011 02:03 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I believe OS/400 started out with S/34 and 36 and grew into iOS now > running on POWER. Actually, OS/400 started out with CPF on the S/38. Barry From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 20 13:56:05 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:56:05 +0000 Subject: Subject: Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA06A26.1070702@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <201110201856.p9KIuAe0019136@ims-d14.mx.aol.com> From: "Barry L. Kline" On 10/20/2011 02:03 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I believe OS/400 started out with S/34 and 36 and grew into iOS now > running on POWER. >Actually, OS/400 started out with CPF on the S/38. > >Barry My point was the foundations of S/34 and S/36 led to the AS/400. I left out S/38 in error. IBM has usually built upon what goes before and it is rare (although probably not without precedent) for them not to include previous architectual elements and software in the next machine, OS etc. in a series. I believe (but again I am not certain) the AS/400 even offered some level of source compatibility for S/34 or S/36, as it is also unusual for them not to be vitally concerned that stuff that ever worked will always continue to do so. Here's a link to a paper on the development of the AS/400. It may not be authoritative: https://har2009.org/program/attachments/27_har_as4.pdf It says, in part: "Rochester's backup plan was [sic] Siverlake. This project took some stuff from S/36, S/38, some leftovers from Fort Knox and turned this into the AS/400. In many ways the AS/400 was actually just a new implementation of the S/38." It does say it was a new implementation of S/38 as you said. But it also says it took stuff from S/36 as I said, and S/36 in turn grew out of S/34. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 14:11:08 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:11:08 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4E9DF39F.6020302@neurotica.com> References: <201110182103.p9IL3BTt015558@floodgap.com> <4E9DF39F.6020302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA0724C.8090404@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same >>>> thing. (Z, in your list above.) >>> >>> Tangentially relevant... >>> >>> I wonder how many S/360 machines spent their entire operating life >>> running in 1401 or 7080 emulation mode? >> >> This just dawned on me: perhaps Rich was referring to AS/400 (System i). >> That *does* run on POWER now. > > Yes, but with different microcode (at least a superset of PPC), right? I'm pretty sure the PowerAS stuff is part of the POWER spec now. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 14:19:10 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:19:10 -0400 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: <4E9E21C1.2090103@brouhaha.com> References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> <4E9E1B13.3040609@compsys.to> <4E9E21C1.2090103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EA0742E.9050606@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I find it interesting that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems > supported > > 4 MB of memory whereas [...] > > I find that statement baffling, as the first PDP-11 to support 4088KB of > memory wasn't introduced until 1975, five years after the introduction > of the PDP-11. I would say that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems > supported 56KB, and slightly less young systems supported 248KB. I think you two maybe using different definitions of "young". Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 14:34:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:34:36 -0700 Subject: open FTP index In-Reply-To: References: <4E9D89A7.15491.12FAE20@cclist.sydex.com>, <201110201804.p9KI4RKC017070@ims-d11.mx.aol.com>, Message-ID: <4EA0155C.31803.96E3DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2011 at 20:23, SPC wrote: > > If it helps I know where you can find a copy of WATFIV for S/360 and > > S/370. No, I'm actually looking for WATFOR 77 for MS-DOS. Not the current "open Watcom" stuff which is horribly bloated (10s of MB), but rather the simple ~160K Waterloo dialect of f77 that could run off of a single MS-DOS floppy. Although referenced many times on the web, it seems to have disappeared. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Oct 20 14:36:38 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:36:38 +0000 Subject: Working as a systems programmer on IBM big iron [was RE: Dennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02C6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: vintagecoder at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 11:03 AM > Have a ball, you're in my killfile now, but don't let that stop you > since I know you like hearing yourself talk. > If somebody was actually a sysprog *at the time in an IBM shop* and > can tell what was released and when they started copyrighting things, > then great. I've snipped all the rest, because Mr. Coder won't see any of my reply. I'm familiar with the meaning of "the IBM OS family of operating systems" having worked with System/360s running OS/360 MFT in 1969, and onwards. I made a living on IBM System/370 systems from the early 1970s until 1984, at which time I moved permanently (as I thought) to DEC mainframes running TOPS-20. I was a sysprog on SVS (aka OS/VS1 Release 1) on an Amdahl 470/8 for several years, and wrote the in-house utility for converting decks (i. e., disk files of 80-byte records) of HASP JCL with ACF2 to JES2 JCL with RACF. I *know* what I'm talking about, with regard to access to IBM sources. I was at SHARE in San Francisco when the great OCO debate heated up again, and still have my button reading "When source is outlawed, only outlaws will have source" in my collection. I remember the discussions of the changes in US copyright law, including court cases, which allowed program sources to be copyrighted and have the copyrights stand up, in _ComputerWorld_ and _Datamation_ and other trade rags. I like hearing other people talk, too. I even admit when I have been wrong in interpretations, as in the case of the zSeries processors: It appears that I have drawn the wrong conclusions from the articles about the change in processor technologies in use for IBM's mainframes, and I withdraw my earlier comment about the comparability of Hercules to the zSeries. OK? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 14:18:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:18:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: from "Huw Davies" at Oct 20, 11 01:00:08 am Message-ID: > > > On 19/10/2011, at 9:31 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > > It's still not too hard to find a HP-25. Retrofit the rechargeables > and you're set. > > Well I found mine in my Dad's garage (I thought it'd been tossed out > years ago). How hard is it to replace the batteries? Very easy. The battery pack clips into the bottom of the machine, you just slide it slightly forwards (towards the '0 key end' of the machine and lift the rear edge to get it out. The battery pack contains 2 AA-size NICd cells connected in series, normally by a double-spring thingy (that;s a highly techncial term, of course). The housing is made in 2 parts which were glued together. You cna crack the glued joint, take it apart, and fit new cells. But actually, I don't recomend doing that. It's better to cut away the pack housing ad the front end, where the cells touch the contacts in the calculator. Then silde out the old cells and slide in the new ones -- taking care of the polarity (since HP calculators were designed for use with their own battery packs only, which only fitted the right way round, there is no reverse-polarity protection. The cells will be held in place when the pack is clipped into the calculator, and you can remove the cells easiy for charging in a normal charger, thus avoiding possible damage to -C models. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 14:48:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:48:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <1319069491.4104.YahooMailClassic@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 19, 11 05:11:31 pm Message-ID: > what, you don't have an HP calc yet? Do you have a pulse? :-) > > Personally I don't use them as rpn calcs. I did 10 years ago when I You use an HP calcuator in infix mode? THat's perverse... > had a 48? for a while. What I can't stand is the flushing of the stack > or whatever happens that locks up my 49g for 2-3 seconds. It's a real It's garbage-collecting. The system is forever creating temporary objects, and when memory gets tight it searches for those that are no longer referenced anywhere and deletes them. This takes a bit of time. You can force a garbage colelction by MEM DROP. MEM returns the amount of free memory, so it has to d oa garbage collection first, so as to know what memeory really is free. Since you don't want this value, you DROP it. Doing this doesn't prevent the pause, but it means you can get it to happen at a convenient time. I did this a lot when I was writing soem time-critical code to send/receive stuff over the serial port. > hemorrhoid. The 50g does it too I imagine, haven't had it out in a while. It doens, but I suspect the faster ARM processor means it takes less time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 14:53:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:53:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 19, 11 08:55:10 pm Message-ID: > A friend (not on this list) told me many months ago about people > hacking the 35S. I suspect there's info out there. I seem to recall > that the CPU in there is actually based on the 6502! It _is_ based on a 6502-compatible CPU, but it's part of a single chip, mask programemd ROM containign the firmware on the same chip and no access AFAIK to any of the buses. Oh, and siad chip is direct-on-board, epoxy-capped. Not the easiest thing to hack IMHO. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 14:28:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:28:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <1319046607.18601.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 19, 11 10:50:07 am Message-ID: > > what about DEC Rainbow monitors? What about just introducing some > bleach and hoping capillary action pulls it in? Worth a try I suppose, but I've never heard of that working... The problem/cure is much the same no matter who made the device. I don't think either hP or DEC made their own monitor CRTs (HP probably made 'scope CRTs at one point), they are pretty much standard ones. Does anyone know what causes this? So far -- touch wood -- I've not seen it in any of my machines. And others have in the same models. What am I doing right? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 14:32:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:32:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Your emails on CCtalk In-Reply-To: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Oct 19, 11 10:51:59 pm Message-ID: > Hi, > > *off-list reply* No it's not! > > > Not sure if anyone has mentioned this to you yet (on or offlist), but a > bunch of your replies from today (Weds 19th October) had the wrong date on > them! > An example header is below. Somehow you have gone back in time 9 months!! ;) Thanks. it should be fixed now (I hope). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 14:58:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:58:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-65 repair (was Re: hp calculators) In-Reply-To: <4E9F81E4.9030106@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Oct 19, 11 07:05:24 pm Message-ID: > Yeah, it's been awhile since I went over it (using the unofficial > schematic on HPCC) but I recall that the power looked fine but I was THere are of course several power lines, I assume you checked the lot. > getting no clock signal at all. The 65 powers up and a few segments on > the right hand side light up, but that's it. I seem to recall that the > custom chips on the display PCB generate the clock signals, but I don't > have any spares so I have no idea if replacing them would fix the problem... The master clock oscilaltor is part of the anode driver IC on the keyboard/display PCB. The 2-pahse clock signals from that are sent to the CPU hybrid circuit whey're the're converted to different votlage levels and then sent out to the other chips i nthe hybrid and the ROMs. If you're gettign nothing out of the anode driver chip clock pins, it's most likely this chip has failed. But do checl the LC 'tank' circuit connected to this chip. That's for the clock oscilator, of course. AFAIK you cna use an anode driver IC from any of the classic-series HPs (35,45,55,65,70,80 -- note that the HP67 is not really a classic series). Not that htat helps much. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 14:36:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:36:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Oct 19, 11 11:18:55 pm Message-ID: > > Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex > > numbers in the cells and operate on them? > > > > Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and > > define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I di= > d > > it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit > > analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet > > handles them as well as my HP calculators. > > Gosh. > > Not that I know of, no! No, I've not managed to find one, and nor has anyone I've talked to (many of whom also want it). This is a serious question, BTW, not M$-bashing or anything like that. I do use complex numbers for AC circuit analysis, they are useful to represent the magnitude and pahse of signals, things like that. I'ev been told many times that the reason I can't get a 'good' scientific calcualtor any more is that 'everybody uses a spreadsheet'. That may be true (for suitable approximations to 'everybody' :-)), but nonetheless my HP RPL machines handle complex numbers directly and are much easier to sue for AC circuit problems than any normal spreadsheet as a result, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 15:03:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:03:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Oct 20, 11 08:28:56 am Message-ID: > > I have fixed a few Rainbow monitors suffering from screen mould. > It may be crude but I just removed the outer glass by breaking it into pa= > rts > and then peeled off the offending plastic layer.=20 It's not so mucwh crude and dangerous. And not just when you are doing it either. I am pretty sure that that outer glass layer, along with the goo sticking ito the CRT faceplate is part of the implosion protection of the CRT. If the CRT implodes (which is rare, I agree, but serios uenough that manufacturers of TV sets cared about it in the 1950s) the user wil lbe showered in glass and bits of electron gun. Certainly all the books/datasheets I've looked at imply this. Unless you _know_ the outer glass layer has no safety function, I certianly wonldn't remove it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 14:41:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:41:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Jackson" at Oct 20, 11 10:20:08 am Message-ID: > So - in that context, why would an engineer ever need the tool of a back > room bean counter, who has been pushed into the executive offices?? I think a true engineer (or scientist, hacker, what have you) will use whatever they consider to be the most appropriate tool for the job in hand, no matter who else might use it, or what they might use it for. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 15:11:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:11:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <201110201811.p9KIBLjR019271@ims-m14.mx.aol.com> from "vintagecoder@aol.com" at Oct 20, 11 06:11:14 pm Message-ID: > I haven't seen a "new" HP in a long time but I can tell you as somebody who > bought a new HP-67 around 1981 that quality started dropping with the LCD > models. I remember the HP-41 had come out just as I decided on my 67. I The HP9810 (1972) is not as well made IMHO as the HP9100 (1967). The latte has a cse made from 2 aluminium alloy castings, the former is 2 side castings riveted to a sheet matal base, etc. It's not as solid. On the other hand, the 9800s iare an order of magnitude better made than suff made today. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 15:15:08 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:15:08 +0100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) References: , <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Excel is easy to use and comes with all Windows based computers. Sadly I am not old enough (or lucky enough) to have used any alternatives - though I have heard of Lotus long before I joined this list. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Gahlinger" To: ; "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:54 PM Subject: RE: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) you're kidding right? excel is a joke. 1-2-3 was much better, quattro was even better sadly both have been crushed by monopoly of m$ is quattro old enough to be considered classic computing yet? :) > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 23:43:53 +0100 > Subject: Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) > From: lproven at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > On 19 October 2011 23:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. > >> > Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever > >> > need. > > > > Read the book "Laboratory Lotus : A Complete Guide To Instrument > > Interfacing"; Louis M. Mezei, Prentice Hall, 1989 > > ISBN[10]: 0-13-519885-2 > > > > 'Twould be presumptuous to specify "everything you could ever need". > > Some of us have unusual needs, that you might consider bizarre. > > > > "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you get what > > you need"?? > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to a > >> serious qyestion : > >> Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex > >> numbers in the cells and operate on them? > >> Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and > >> define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I did > >> it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit > >> analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet > >> handles them as well as my HP calculators. > > > > > > I'm far from expert - I don't even know how to get Excel to TELL ME which > > numbers are float, which cells (particularly floats) are calculated > > fron other floats, or even which have been rounded. > > > > I have used Visicalc, Lotus, and Excel for a number of "off-label" uses, > > such as small flat-file databases, etc. A lot of my CGA and MDA monitors > > had burnt-in "Lotus L"s. > > > > It is amazingly versatile, but certainly NOT "everything that you could > > ever need" > > OK, I defer. I was not aware of anything 1-2-3 could do that Excel > could not, but hey, apparently there is. I was wrong. Sorry. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 > = From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 15:00:05 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:00:05 +0100 Subject: Your emails on CCtalk References: <013d01cc8ea9$755f2a50$e0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <006201cc8f64$fe4de0c0$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> So much for posting off-list. Sorry guys (and gals), I was sleepy when I sent it. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Burton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 10:51 PM Subject: Your emails on CCtalk > > Hi, > > *off-list reply* > > > Not sure if anyone has mentioned this to you yet (on or offlist), but a > bunch of your replies from today (Weds 19th October) had the wrong date on > them! > An example header is below. Somehow you have gone back in time 9 months!! ;) > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:56 PM > Subject: Re: old clocks > > From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 20 15:45:08 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:45:08 +0000 Subject: Working as a systems programmer on IBM big iron In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02C6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201110202045.p9KKjDdN025091@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com> >> Have a ball, you're in my killfile now, but don't let that stop you >> since I know you like hearing yourself talk. This was not referring to you, Rich. >> If somebody was actually a sysprog *at the time in an IBM shop* and >> can tell what was released and when they started copyrighting things, >> then great. > I'm familiar with the meaning of "the IBM OS family of operating systems" > having worked with System/360s running OS/360 MFT in 1969, and onwards. If so, your previous statement calling something that you thought runs on Power (z/OS, which doesn't) the "IBM OS family" doesn't make any sense. You should have known that none of the MVS family ever ran on POWER. The tight coupling of the OS and code to the hardware makes porting it impossible. That's how this discussion got started. > I made a living on IBM System/370 systems from the early 1970s until > 1984, at which time I moved permanently Ok. I started in the late 1970s on MFT writing systems software and continued doing that until last year. Almost all of my experience has been with tightly restricted code and doc and I don't remember much from the days when IBM didn't have a stranglehold on their stuff. > I *know* what I'm talking about, with regard to access to IBM sources. I > was at SHARE in San Francisco when the great OCO debate heated up again, > and still have my button reading "When source is outlawed, only outlaws > will have source" in my collection. I remember the discussions of the > changes in US copyright law, including court cases, which allowed program > sources to be copyrighted and have the copyrights stand up, in > _ComputerWorld_ and _Datamation_ and other trade rags. I would have liked to hear all that info presented in a way that didn't resemble a bar fight or ape-man chest pounding contest- I'm not speaking about you necessarily but about this whole discussion. If you have some extra time to kill, I would personally enjoy hearing about that period from someone who was there, because I wasn't as I said earlier. From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Oct 20 15:54:32 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:54:32 +0000 Subject: Working as a systems programmer on IBM big iron Message-ID: <201110202054.p9KKsb4m000951@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> Responding to myself and Rich: I said: >> If somebody was actually a sysprog *at the time in an IBM shop* and >> can tell what was released and when they started copyrighting things, >> then great. Rich said: > I *know* what I'm talking about, with regard to access to IBM sources. I > was at SHARE in San Francisco when the great OCO debate heated up again, > and still have my button reading "When source is outlawed, only outlaws > will have source" in my collection. I remember the discussions of the > changes in US copyright law, including court cases, which allowed program > sources to be copyrighted and have the copyrights stand up, in > _ComputerWorld_ and _Datamation_ and other trade rags. So, since you were, what was the last release that was not copyrighted and what was the first release that was? And when was the change to OCO? Thank you. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu Oct 20 16:03:38 2011 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:03:38 +0100 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions Message-ID: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> Due to the large number of pending subscriptions to cctalk and cctech I am about to 'reject' all of them and request that anyone still waiting to subscribe please re-subscribe at which point they will be approved quickly. Please make sure you only request subscription to one of the lists. To re-iterate: cctalk is un-moderated, cctech is moderated cctalk is a superset of cctech Anything posted to cctalk appears immediately Anything posted to cctech is cross-posted to cctalk immediately Anything posted to cctalk OR cctech is (cross-)posted to cctech if the moderator (me!) feels it is on-topic - therefore they will always be a delay before postings appear on cctech There are some posts in cctech which are bypassing moderation - we hope to sort this out soon. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From jonas at otter.se Thu Oct 20 11:03:38 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:03:38 +0200 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA0465A.5090702@otter.se> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:42:03 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex > numbers in the cells and operate on them? > > Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and > define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I did > it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit > analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet > handles them as well as my HP calculators. Surprise surprise, apparently Excel will let you work with complex numbers. It seems you have to install the "Analysis Pak" (which apparently is supplied with Excel, see e.g. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/load-the-analysis-toolpak-HP001127724.aspx for the 2003 version). That of course doesn't mean that it handles them as well as your HP calculators :-) /Jonas From tingox at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 13:07:14 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:07:14 +0200 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... In-Reply-To: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Hi, On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I've been assembling from source code most of the HP diagnostics for the HP2100 and HP1000 systems. ?To do so, I used Eric Smith's original "asm21" - and found that a number of diagnostics didn't assemble correctly. I updated it - and subsequently Terry Newton joined the project and made more updates. Between us, over the course of several months, we've managed to debug asm21 to the place where we have not found any more errors in several additional months of use. > > asm21 runs under both *NIX and Windows environments as it is written entirely in Perl. > Does it require a specific version of perl? Or some perl libraries / extensions? tingo at kg-v2$ uname -a FreeBSD kg-v2.kg4.no 8.2-STABLE FreeBSD 8.2-STABLE #4: Sat Jul 16 02:07:14 CEST 2011 root at kg-v2.kg4.no:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 tingo at kg-v2$ perl -v This is perl, v5.10.1 (*) built for amd64-freebsd-thread-multi Copyright 1987-2009, Larry Wall Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be found on this system using "man perl" or "perldoc perl". If you have access to the Internet, point your browser at http://www.perl.org/, the Perl Home Page. tingo at kg-v2$ ./asm21_107 Use of uninitialized value $listing in substitution (s///) at ./asm21_107 line 336. Use of uninitialized value $listing in string eq at ./asm21_107 line 338. Use of uninitialized value in string eq at ./asm21_107 line 338. ^C tingo at kg-v2$ ./asm21_107 -? Can't open -?: No such file or directory at ./asm21_107 line 367. Can't open -?: No such file or directory at ./asm21_107 line 367. tingo at kg-v2$ ./asm21_107 -h Can't open -h: No such file or directory at ./asm21_107 line 367. Can't open -h: No such file or directory at ./asm21_107 line 367. tingo at kg-v2$ ./asm21_107 --help Can't open --help: No such file or directory at ./asm21_107 line 367. Can't open --help: No such file or directory at ./asm21_107 line 367. There was little documentation included... -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cambrook at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:21:30 2011 From: cambrook at gmail.com (Peter Isaac) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:21:30 +0100 Subject: Monroe OC 8820 - OS8MT Message-ID: <3E78092A-22D7-4DC2-8321-5CB4FD61A180@gmail.com> For the attention of Leaknoil I have an OC 8820 with various disks ... Contact me if you are interested. Peter UK From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 20 16:17:37 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POWER Rangers was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA0724C.8090404@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Oct 20, 11 03:11:08 pm" Message-ID: <201110202117.p9KLHbU2011836@floodgap.com> > > > This just dawned on me: perhaps Rich was referring to AS/400 (System i). > > > That *does* run on POWER now. > > > > Yes, but with different microcode (at least a superset of PPC), right? > > I'm pretty sure the PowerAS stuff is part of the POWER spec now. Yes, PowerPC-AS and the rest of Amazon was unified with POWER4. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TV is chewing gum for the eyes. -- Frank Lloyd Wright ---------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 16:18:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:18:57 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: from "Rod Smallwood" at Oct 20, 11 08:28:56 am, Message-ID: <4EA02DD1.11388.F66DC1@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2011 at 21:03, Tony Duell wrote: > Unless you _know_ the outer glass layer has no safety function, I > certianly wonldn't remove it. In the US, it was not uncommon for old TV manufacturers to use a separate flat sheet of glass in front of the (unprotected) screen for just this purpose. The guy on YouTube, fron what I can tell, does not attempt to use a uniform layer of PVA to reattach the implosion shield, but merely sticks the shield on at the edges. I suppose this may be sufficient for small CRTs. --Chuck From axelsson at acc.umu.se Thu Oct 20 16:10:57 2011 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:10:57 +0200 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA08E61.1080609@acc.umu.se> There are some support in OpenOffice Calc. There are a number of functions that operates of complex numbers as strings. You have to use IMABS() IMPOWER, IMSUB, IMPRODUCT, IMSQRT... etc when creating formulas. But otherwise it works. /G?ran Tony Duell skrev 2011-10-20 21:36: >>> Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex >>> numbers in the cells and operate on them? >>> >>> Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and >>> define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I di= >> d >>> it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit >>> analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet >>> handles them as well as my HP calculators. >> Gosh. >> >> Not that I know of, no! > > No, I've not managed to find one, and nor has anyone I've talked to > (many of whom also want it). > > This is a serious question, BTW, not M$-bashing or anything like that. I > do use complex numbers for AC circuit analysis, they are useful to > represent the magnitude and pahse of signals, things like that. I'ev been > told many times that the reason I can't get a 'good' scientific > calcualtor any more is that 'everybody uses a spreadsheet'. That may be > true (for suitable approximations to 'everybody' :-)), but nonetheless my > HP RPL machines handle complex numbers directly and are much easier to > sue for AC circuit problems than any normal spreadsheet as a result, > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 20 16:51:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:51:46 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B02B816-7201-47FA-9B02-69BBCDFE1060@neurotica.com> On Oct 20, 2011, at 3:53 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> A friend (not on this list) told me many months ago about people >> hacking the 35S. I suspect there's info out there. I seem to recall >> that the CPU in there is actually based on the 6502! > > It _is_ based on a 6502-compatible CPU, but it's part of a single chip, > mask programemd ROM containign the firmware on the same chip and no > access AFAIK to any of the buses. Oh, and siad chip is direct-on-board, > epoxy-capped. Not the easiest thing to hack IMHO. :-( Neat that they used a 6502-architecture CPU, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Oct 20 17:04:42 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:04:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1893438379.802526.1319148282986.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 25 >Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:15:08 +0100 >From: "Andrew Burton" aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > >Excel is easy to use and comes with all Windows based computers. Sadly I am >not old enough (or lucky enough) to have used any alternatives - though I >have heard of Lotus long before I joined this list. > >Regards, >Andrew B If you want to try Lotus 123, get an HP LX 200 palmtop computer. It comes with Lotus built into the ROM. In fact, the ability to run Lotus 123 was the genesis of the HP plamtops. One of my gripes about Lotus 123 is that it excelled (pun intended) at losing your work, as it did not ask you to save the file when you quit -- "/Q" would quit the program whether or not you had unsaved work. Bob?? PS. Re the "what calcularor to get" thread, you can get an HP LX200 and run any of a number of MS-DOS HP calculator emulators on it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 17:16:06 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111020151424.L38896@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Doug Jackson wrote: > So - in that context, why would an engineer ever need the tool of a back > room bean counter, who has been pushed into the executive offices?? Q: Who, other than a bean counter, would think that bean counters are the only people who ever use tools to work with numbers? There ARE other reasons to do so, even for just adding up a column of numbers! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:26:49 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:26:49 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > So - in that context, why would an engineer ever need the tool of a back > > room bean counter, who has been pushed into the executive offices?? > > I think a true engineer (or scientist, hacker, what have you) will use > whatever they consider to be the most appropriate tool for the job in > hand, no matter who else might use it, or what they might use it for. > > -tony > I knew a mechanical engineer who would use ClarisWorks spreadsheets for nearly everything. His team was trying to figure out the optimal spacing for a particle detector photomultiplier tube bracket. A couple guys futzed around using calculators and paper for an hour. He whipped up a spreadsheet in ClarisWorks and figured it out in ten minutes From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 17:27:07 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: , <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net>, <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20111020151638.R38896@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Andrew Burton wrote: > Excel is easy to use and comes with all Windows based computers. Excel is part of Microsoft OFFICE, NOT part of Windows. Q: Is it also included in "WORKS"? I deal with plenty of Windoze machines that don't have it, and I need to decide whether to buy additional copies V installing Open Office. My personal preference, of course, would be Open Office, but other people have participation in the decision making process. Several things might be different if they let me make the decisions. > Sadly I am not old enough (or lucky enough) to have used any > alternatives - though I have heard of Lotus long before I joined this > list. If you want, I'm sure that somebody could provide you copies of Lotus and Visicalc that you could run on current machines. While MOST of us see Excel as a bloated or just feature heavy Visiclone, I guess that from YOUR perspective, Visicalc/Lotus would seem like "stripped down" variants of Excel. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 20 17:35:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:35:09 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <1893438379.802526.1319148282986.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1893438379.802526.1319148282986.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <42097D37-E609-42E9-8B83-46FFC600736A@neurotica.com> On Oct 20, 2011, at 6:04 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > One of my gripes about Lotus 123 is that it excelled (pun intended) at losing your work, as it did not ask you to save the file when you quit -- "/Q" would quit the program whether or not you had unsaved work. Heh. This is idiot users losing their work, not the software. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:43:44 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:43:44 +0100 Subject: Working as a systems programmer on IBM big iron [was RE: Dennis Ritchie has died] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02C6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02C6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 20 October 2011 20:36, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: vintagecoder at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 11:03 AM > >> Have a ball, you're in my killfile now, but don't let that stop you >> since I know you like hearing yourself talk. > >> If somebody was actually a sysprog *at the time in an IBM shop* and >> can tell what was released and when they started copyrighting things, >> then great. > > I've snipped all the rest, because Mr. Coder won't see any of my reply. > > I'm familiar with the meaning of "the IBM OS family of operating systems" > having worked with System/360s running OS/360 MFT in 1969, and onwards. > > I made a living on IBM System/370 systems from the early 1970s until > 1984, at which time I moved permanently (as I thought) to DEC mainframes > running TOPS-20. ?I was a sysprog on SVS (aka OS/VS1 Release 1) on an > Amdahl 470/8 for several years, and wrote the in-house utility for > converting decks (i. e., disk files of 80-byte records) of HASP JCL with > ACF2 to JES2 JCL with RACF. > > I *know* what I'm talking about, with regard to access to IBM sources. > I was at SHARE in San Francisco when the great OCO debate heated up > again, and still have my button reading "When source is outlawed, only > outlaws will have source" in my collection. ?I remember the discussions > of the changes in US copyright law, including court cases, which allowed > program sources to be copyrighted and have the copyrights stand up, in > _ComputerWorld_ and _Datamation_ and other trade rags. > > I like hearing other people talk, too. ?I even admit when I have been > wrong in interpretations, as in the case of the zSeries processors: ?It > appears that I have drawn the wrong conclusions from the articles about > the change in processor technologies in use for IBM's mainframes, and I > withdraw my earlier comment about the comparability of Hercules to the > zSeries. > > OK? *Applause* :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dmabry at mich.com Thu Oct 20 17:45:21 2011 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:45:21 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone mentioned the HP15C-LE (Limited Edition) that HP just released? I bought one and it is quite true to its name. It actually runs the original microcode on an emulator, so the same bugs the original had are still there. Oh yeah, and it is about 100x faster! We'll see if the battery life is anywhere near the original. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 17:45:40 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> > > THAT is already present. "float" in C means that it is an approximation > > to 24 binary significant digits. On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > No, it tells you that it can *represent no more than* 24 binary > significant digits. > float pi = 3.1f; /* close enough for government work */ > that the *type* can have 24 significant binary digits doesn't mean > that the *data* has 24 significant binary digits. I have to disagree. Significant digits are not the same as having CORRECT info or data. And 24 binary significat digits is absolutely NOT the same as 24 CORRECT binary digits. float pi = 3.1f; DOES, INDEED, give you 24 significant digts OF WHAT YOU FED IT. Therefore, we have set PI (in our "pi" variable) to 24 significant binary digits of 3.100000 (and 3.100000 has more significant digits that 3.1, indisunirregardless of whether we intended it to represent PI) That is certainly NOT an accurate approximation of PI, BUT that isn't what we asked the computer for. We asked it to give us 24 bit accuracy storage of 3.1 It did. We need need more that 3 significant digits of 22/7, and an approximation of PI that is CORRECT for more than 3 significant digits to demonstrate our premise that PI is NOT 22/7. Mostly unrelated Q: In Windoze 3.11, if you used the calculator to subract 3.10 from 3.11 , it gave a result of 0 ! What was the cause of THAT error? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:51:10 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:51:10 +0100 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> References: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On 20 October 2011 19:03, wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > > On 10/18/2011 04:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > Vintage Coder wrote: >>>> When people wanted to port the IBM OS family to x86 they wrote Hercules >>>> to emulate the hardware. The OS doesn't make sense on anything but >>>> System/360, 370, 390, Z, etc. It was easier to port the hardware than >>>> the software. >>> >>> When IBM wanted to port the IBM OS family to POWER, they did the same >>> thing. (Z, in your list above.) > > I have no idea what you mean with this statement. AIX and OS/400 got ported > to POWER but they were never based on S/360 or its descendants. AIX as a > UNIX-like OS was probably never tightly coupled with the hardware, so it > could be ported easily. AIX wasn't ported to POWER, as such; it was originally /developed/ on POWER, or at least on the ROMP RISC CPU that was the direct ancestor of POWER. It is the original, sole, native OS of the whole RIOS/RS6000/POWER CPU line. It's been ported /from/ POWER at least three times. There was an x86 port of AIX (v2, IIRC) in the late '80s, but it didn't get anywhere and was axed. (*Checks*) It was done by Locus Corp, says Wikipedia, not IBM. Then there was AIX/370 for the System/370, also fairly short-lived. In the AIX5 timeframe, working with SCO on Project Monterey, apparently there was a port to the Itanium, as well, but it was never released. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:54:12 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:54:12 +0100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111020151638.R38896@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <20111020151638.R38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 20 October 2011 23:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Excel is easy to use and comes with all Windows based computers. > > Excel is part of Microsoft OFFICE, NOT part of Windows. > Q: Is it also included in "WORKS"? No, Works has its own spreadsheet module. Like the Works WP, it vaguely resembles its big siblings from Office, but only vaguely. > I deal with plenty of Windoze machines that don't have it, and I need to > decide whether to buy additional copies V installing Open Office. ?My > personal preference, of course, would be Open Office, but other people > have participation in the decision making process. ?Several things might > be different if they let me make the decisions. :?) FWIW, I reckon LibreOffice is to be preferred now, rather than OpenOffice. Now that OpenOffice is Apache's, not Oracle's any more, I am hoping for a merger. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 17:56:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <42097D37-E609-42E9-8B83-46FFC600736A@neurotica.com> References: <1893438379.802526.1319148282986.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <42097D37-E609-42E9-8B83-46FFC600736A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111020155217.H38896@shell.lmi.net> > > One of my gripes about Lotus 123 is that it excelled (pun intended) at > > losing your work, as it did not ask you to save the file when you quit > > -- "/Q" would quit the program whether or not you had unsaved work. On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Heh. This is idiot users losing their work, not the software. ;) In general, software should provide some minimal protection against user errors (such as requiring "/Q" V "Q"), since ALL of us hit wrong keyz now and then. The real issue is QUANTITATIVE - how MUCH protection/hand-holding/padded-room should it provide? From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:57:24 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:57:24 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: > I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone mentioned the > HP15C-LE (Limited Edition) that HP just released? ?I bought one and it is > quite true to its name. ?It actually runs the original microcode on an > emulator, so the same bugs the original had are still there. > > Oh yeah, and it is about 100x faster! ?We'll see if the battery life is > anywhere near the original. > > I had no idea such a thing existed until now. Time to buy one! From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 20 18:03:48 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Oct 20, 11 03:45:40 pm" Message-ID: <201110202303.p9KN3mpH009498@floodgap.com> > Mostly unrelated Q: In Windoze 3.11, if you used the calculator to subract > 3.10 from 3.11 , it gave a result of 0 ! What was the cause of THAT > error? An overly truthful upgrade policy? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- .signature violation (core dumped) ----------------------------------------- From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 18:08:05 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:08:05 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: > I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone mentioned the > HP15C-LE (Limited Edition) that HP just released? ?I bought one and it is > quite true to its name. ?It actually runs the original microcode on an > emulator, so the same bugs the original had are still there. > Oh, they only made 10,000 of the 15C Limited Edition and HP sold all of them already? So if you want one you now need to pay ***rare*** eBay prices? Guess I won't get one after all. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 18:09:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA0465A.5090702@otter.se> References: <4EA0465A.5090702@otter.se> Message-ID: <20111020160814.S38896@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Jonas Otter wrote: > Surprise surprise, apparently Excel will let you work with complex > numbers. It seems you have to install the "Analysis Pak" (which > apparently is supplied with Excel, see e.g. > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/load-the-analysis-toolpak-HP001127724.aspx > for the 2003 version). > That of course doesn't mean that it handles them as well as your HP > calculators :-) Every thread on this mailing list EVENTUALLY produces some truly useful information! (But, we can probably still find SOMETHING that isn't in Excel!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 18:14:38 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:14:38 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 20 October 2011 23:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Mostly unrelated Q: In Windoze 3.11, if you used the calculator to subract > 3.10 from 3.11 , it gave a result of 0 ! ?What was the cause of THAT > error? :?D I'd forgotten that! IIRC, the rumour was that it was written by a student on a summer work-experience posting. It was considered good enough and included. Also, they lost the source code, so it couldn't be readily fixed, and in the end had to be completely rewritten by someone costing much more money. Also see Windows Write - again, went pretty much unchanged through about 5 or 6 releases of Windows because they'd lost the source. It was rewritten and replaced by Wordpad. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From doc at vaxen.net Thu Oct 20 18:28:09 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:28:09 -0500 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EA0AE89.2090109@vaxen.net> On 10/20/11 5:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > In the AIX5 timeframe, working with SCO on Project Monterey, > apparently there was a port to the Itanium, as well, but it was never > released. My information is a little different, second-hand from IBM sources. Certainly slanted to the IBM party line.... IBM worked in project Monterey, which involved not only SCO but HP and a few other participants, on a port of OpenGroup-certified UNIX to the x86 family[0]. That effort, as far as I know, was specced as a 32-bit OS and never went to Itanium. At about the same time, IBM did port AIX v5 to Itanium. (I have pre-distribution training course materials that detail booting and installing AIX to an EFI-based Itanium system.) But as you said, that port never made it out the door. IBM made a decision at about that time that Linux would be their cross-platform OS offering and ran with it. Doc [0] I'm convinced that Monterey was the root of the SCO/IBM UNIX licensing litigation. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 20 18:59:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:59:42 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA0B5EE.4090202@neurotica.com> On 10/20/2011 03:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I'ev been > told many times that the reason I can't get a 'good' scientific > calcualtor any more is that 'everybody uses a spreadsheet'. That makes about as much sense as saying "We don't need screwdrivers anymore, because we have pickles!" Two totally different tools for two totally different jobs. Stop the world, I wanna get off. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 19:02:29 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111020163658.Q38896@shell.lmi.net> > > Mostly unrelated Q: In Windoze 3.11, if you used the calculator to subract > > 3.10 from 3.11 , it gave a result of 0 ! ?What was the cause of THAT > > error? On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > An overly truthful upgrade policy? Windoze 3.11 was "WFW". MS said that that was "Windows For Workgroups", but some people claimed that the second 'W' was for a word that is offensively obscene to Brits. On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Liam Proven wrote: > :?D > I'd forgotten that! > IIRC, the rumour was that it was written by a student on a summer > work-experience posting. It was considered good enough and included. > Also, they lost the source code, so it couldn't be readily fixed, and > in the end had to be completely rewritten by someone costing much more > money. It is handy, and it is nice that the newer one has some minimal "scientific" and BASE CONVERSION functions. It doesn't compare with an HP REAL calculator, but I can always find it. > Also see Windows Write - again, went pretty much unchanged through > about 5 or 6 releases of Windows because they'd lost the source. It > was rewritten and replaced by Wordpad. Pointless rambling Windows Write anecdote: I was the first person in the UC Berkeley School of Library and Information Studies to use a word processor for PhD written exams. Mostly because I publicly demanded that they publicly state their REASONS for requiring hand written, and I assured them that I would still be able to make enough spelling erors. They were panic-stricken over how to "sanitize" a computer so that answers couldn't be smuggled in! But, then they asked ME to pick a word-processor! Since all that I wanted was a TEXT EDITOR and a printer, I responded, "ANY word processor. ANY. Just tell me which one a week ahead, so that I can learn enough of its quirks to use it." We settled on Windows Write, which protected me from even more insane choices or botched installation, and protected them from the possibility that I might recompile from source [on PC-Write or the like] or object code edit in paragraphs of pre-written text. But mostly it let them choose which PC to use at the last minute. After all of that, they ended up just handing me a few blank disks and key to an office with a PC in it, and never even checked up on me. And then THEY printed out my files. I passed. Which shows how sloppy their standards are! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dmabry at mich.com Thu Oct 20 19:06:17 2011 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:06:17 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> Message-ID: <4EA0B779.1070306@mich.com> Glen Slick said the following on 10/20/2011 7:08 PM: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: >> I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone mentioned the >> HP15C-LE (Limited Edition) that HP just released? I bought one and it is >> quite true to its name. It actually runs the original microcode on an >> emulator, so the same bugs the original had are still there. >> > Oh, they only made 10,000 of the 15C Limited Edition and HP sold all > of them already? So if you want one you now need to pay ***rare*** > eBay prices? Guess I won't get one after all. > > > They have been "sold out" and then a week or so later came available again. That batch also sold out. I'm keeping my eyes open and will grab one more if I can. I think they are coming from the actual manufacturer (in China, no doubt) in batches. It is getting rave reviews from even the curmudgeons on the hpmuseum forum. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Oct 20 19:17:04 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:17:04 -0700 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... In-Reply-To: References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <201110201717.04607.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 20 October 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:12 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > I've been assembling from source code most of the HP diagnostics for the HP2100 and HP1000 systems. To do so, I used Eric Smith's original "asm21" - and found that a number of diagnostics didn't assemble correctly. I updated it - and subsequently Terry Newton joined the project and made more updates. Between us, over the course of several months, we've managed to debug asm21 to the place where we have not found any more errors in several additional months of use. > > > > Do you have copies of the machine readable source for the diagnostics? > I have seen the scanned hardcopy listings of the source but don't > think I've noticed copies of the original machine readable source on > the net. Did this come from the collection of software Al and the > museum acquired from HP, or from some other source? bitsavers.org has a treasure trove of HP source code available at: http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/tapes/ There's a certain amount of work one has to do in order to create a clean source file and binary: 1) Find the software/diagnostics you want in the text catalogs 2) Typically, a single piece of software will be spread over a number of source segments 3) Strip the source segments of high order bits and zero characters (Might want to use cvhp.c code I wrote below) 4) Concatenate the "striped" segments into a single text file (easy under Linux) 5) Assemble same using "asm21" or SIMH running BCS or RTS (or a "real" HP 21xx). cvhp.c source ------------- #include main() { int c; while ((c = getchar()) != EOF) { if (c) putchar(c & 0x7f); } } > > One of these days I'll finally get around to running the diagnostics > on my 2113E and 2117F. Go for it ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 19:17:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:17:21 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2011 at 15:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > I have to disagree. Significant digits are not the same as having > CORRECT info or data. And 24 binary significat digits is absolutely NOT > the same as 24 CORRECT binary digits. As I said, bonehead numerical methods. Not to be confused with the mathematics of errors, although the two are somewhat related. If you have 4 decimal digits of significance in your "floating point" (actually, exponential) notation (floating point in BDP means something a bit different) mantiassa and subtract 0.9998E4 from 0.9999E4, you get an answer of 0.1000E1, but only one digit has *any* singificance--the remainder is garbage. Chain a few calculations of this sort and you'll soon lose *all* significance and the machine will manufacture meaningless "answers" for you. Use some of this sort of math involving trig functions near their limits and you can discover that between two systems claiming the same precision that answers can be wildly different--the result of computing using differently-flavored garbage. My beef with some compiler writers is that they'll often do you a favor by silently rearranging expressions to make use of distributive or associative properties and that series that *used* converge neatly now no longer does. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 19:19:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:19:51 -0700 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111020151638.R38896@shell.lmi.net> References: , <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <20111020151638.R38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA05837.30159.19C0E54@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2011 at 15:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you want, I'm sure that somebody could provide you copies of Lotus > and Visicalc that you could run on current machines. I can also provide SuperCalc for x80 CP/M as well as MS-DOS. Sorcim was pretty much destroyed after it was acquired by CA. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 19:22:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:22:41 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA0B779.1070306@mich.com> References: , , <4EA0B779.1070306@mich.com> Message-ID: <4EA058E1.30263.19EA664@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2011 at 20:06, Dave Mabry wrote: > They have been "sold out" and then a week or so later came available > again. That batch also sold out. I'm keeping my eyes open and will > grab one more if I can. I think they are coming from the actual > manufacturer (in China, no doubt) in batches. > > It is getting rave reviews from even the curmudgeons on the hpmuseum > forum. Is there a "Limited Edition" HP16C available? I'd certainly buy one. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 19:37:06 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:37:06 -0700 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... In-Reply-To: <201110201717.04607.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <201110201717.04607.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> One of these days I'll finally get around to running the diagnostics >> on my 2113E and 2117F. > > Go for it ;-) > One limitation is that I have an 800BPI 7970B with the HP specific non-Pertec inteface which I can't connect to any other systems, and the other Pertec interface tape drives which I can connect to other systems to write tapes are 1600/6250 BPI. So I can't write an 800BPI diagnostic tape myself, unless I hack up some way to do that directly from the HP system, which I suppose I could do if I actually spent some time working on it... -Glen From dmabry at mich.com Thu Oct 20 19:39:05 2011 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:39:05 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA058E1.30263.19EA664@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EA0B779.1070306@mich.com> <4EA058E1.30263.19EA664@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA0BF29.8070704@mich.com> Chuck Guzis said the following on 10/20/2011 8:22 PM: > On 20 Oct 2011 at 20:06, Dave Mabry wrote: > >> They have been "sold out" and then a week or so later came available >> again. That batch also sold out. I'm keeping my eyes open and will >> grab one more if I can. I think they are coming from the actual >> manufacturer (in China, no doubt) in batches. >> >> It is getting rave reviews from even the curmudgeons on the hpmuseum >> forum. > Is there a "Limited Edition" HP16C available? > > I'd certainly buy one. > > --Chuck > > > No. But there are quite a few others, me included, who would also buy one. The 15C-LE is based on the architecture of HP's current 12C. So it was not much of an engineering job to create the 15C-LE. Electronically all they had to do was plug in the microcode from the old 15C. It would be the same for the 16C. So HP would have to decide to have it tooled up. Perhaps if the 15C-LE keeps selling out they will consider the 16C. It has been bantered about on the hpmuseum forum. There was a "grass roots" (I HATE that phrase! So overused.) push to get the 15C reissued. Someone created a web page where people basically "signed a petition" that was sent to HP. Don't know if that made the difference. HP actually prototyped it and gave the members of club each a 16C-LE to beta test. The HPCC. And they kept it quiet until it was released! Quite an interesting story. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 20 20:08:59 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:08:59 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> Message-ID: <4EA0C62B.5040104@brouhaha.com> Dave Mabry wrote about the HP-15C LE: > It actually runs the original microcode on an emulator, so the > same bugs the original had are still there. It seems that there weren't many bugs in the original. On the other hand, it has introduced new bugs not present in the original. But probably not as many new bugs as would have been present if the new firmware was written entirely from scratch. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 20 20:09:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111020151424.L38896@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net> <20111020151424.L38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Doug Jackson wrote: >> So - in that context, why would an engineer ever need the tool of a back >> room bean counter, who has been pushed into the executive offices?? > > Q: Who, other than a bean counter, would think that bean counters are the > only people who ever use tools to work with numbers? There ARE other > reasons to do so, even for just adding up a column of numbers! > My friend Wayne has used Excel with great results to not only plot data points for the screen designs we've used in the collimated display project, but visualize them as well. He also uses it to plot countermap points for use with the output warping software we use. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 20 20:16:26 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA0B5EE.4090202@neurotica.com> References: <4EA0B5EE.4090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/20/2011 03:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'ev been >> told many times that the reason I can't get a 'good' scientific >> calcualtor any more is that 'everybody uses a spreadsheet'. > > That makes about as much sense as saying "We don't need screwdrivers > anymore, because we have pickles!" Two totally different tools for two > totally different jobs. > > Stop the world, I wanna get off. > Don't leave yet! Someone's gonna show up with a #2 Square Drive pickle at _any_ moment! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 20 20:18:11 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA05837.30159.19C0E54@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <20111020151638.R38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA05837.30159.19C0E54@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Oct 2011 at 15:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> If you want, I'm sure that somebody could provide you copies of Lotus >> and Visicalc that you could run on current machines. > > I can also provide SuperCalc for x80 CP/M as well as MS-DOS. Sorcim > was pretty much destroyed after it was acquired by CA. > Doesn't that cover pretty much everything ever acquired by CA? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 20 20:24:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:24:45 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: <4EA0B5EE.4090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA0C9DD.3080802@neurotica.com> On 10/20/2011 09:16 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I'ev been >>> told many times that the reason I can't get a 'good' scientific >>> calcualtor any more is that 'everybody uses a spreadsheet'. >> >> That makes about as much sense as saying "We don't need screwdrivers >> anymore, because we have pickles!" Two totally different tools for two >> totally different jobs. >> >> Stop the world, I wanna get off. >> > Don't leave yet! Someone's gonna show up with a #2 Square Drive pickle > at _any_ moment! :) I've got your square drive pickle...RIGHT HERE. ;) *snicker* -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Oct 20 20:25:09 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:25:09 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 5:17 pm -0700 2011/10/20, Chuck Guzis wrote: >My beef with some compiler writers is that they'll often do you a >favor by silently rearranging expressions to make use of distributive >or associative properties and that series that *used* converge neatly >now no longer does. K&R C (vaguely on subject here) permitted a compiler to rearrange expressions at will, but ANSI C forbids any optimization that could change the results of a calculation. FORTRAN from the very beginning has had the rule that parentheses must be respected, but all else is fair game. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Oct 20 20:34:10 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:34:10 -0700 Subject: cvhp.c - Oops Message-ID: <201110201834.10759.lbickley@bickleywest.com> In my last post I included a small C program to strip high order bits and "zero" characters from 21xx .tap files. Unfortunately, I posted an old version. Here's the correct version: cvhp.c ------ #include main() { int c, d; while ((c = getchar()) != EOF) { if (d=(c & 0x7f)) putchar(d); } } ------ Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 21:15:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:15:51 -0700 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EA05837.30159.19C0E54@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EA07367.10303.2064251@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2011 at 18:18, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 20 Oct 2011 at 15:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >> If you want, I'm sure that somebody could provide you copies of > >> Lotus and Visicalc that you could run on current machines. > > > > I can also provide SuperCalc for x80 CP/M as well as MS-DOS. Sorcim > > was pretty much destroyed after it was acquired by CA. > > > Doesn't that cover pretty much everything ever acquired by CA? :) Not according to my bookshelf. SuperProject, SuperWriter, some language tools such as Pascal/M... How soon we forget, eh? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 21:39:08 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:39:08 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: > It's been ported /from/ POWER at least three times. > > There was an x86 port of AIX (v2, IIRC) in the late '80s, but it > didn't get anywhere and was axed. (*Checks*) It was done by Locus > Corp, says Wikipedia, not IBM. > > Then there was AIX/370 for the System/370, also fairly short-lived. AIX was also ported to the i960. The high speed NSFnet (T3 based, basically, from 1990 or so, later called ANSnet) used RPQ'd RS/6000s (POWERserver 930) as routers, using "Hawthorne" cards to do all the routing dirty work. These router cards sat on the 930's MCA bus, with each card being an network interface - Ethernet, V.35, HSSI, or FDDI. These "Hawthorne" cards ran a stripped down AIX, originally on i386, but later i960. From roughly 1991 through 1998, quite a lot of the Internet backbone traffic was routed by these i960 based cards. IBM eventually released the Ethernet and V.35 router cards as a real product, as part of a little RS/6000-turned-router product - and I can not remember the machine type number. I do not think the HSSI or FDDI cards went on to be real products. I was responsible for stripping the 930s of these cards for shipment back to IBM to be destroyed. I was not very responsible. Anyway, one of the original design goals of AIX was to be easily ported to different architectures. -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Oct 20 22:23:15 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:23:15 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: help me get off this list - Found word(s) off in the subject In-Reply-To: <4EA0742E.9050606@gmail.com> References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> <4E9E1B13.3040609@compsys.to> <4E9E21C1.2090103@brouhaha.com> <4EA0742E.9050606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA0E5A3.6080204@compsys.to> >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > >> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> > I find it interesting that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems >> supported >> > 4 MB of memory whereas [...] >> >> I find that statement baffling, as the first PDP-11 to support 4088KB of >> memory wasn't introduced until 1975, five years after the introduction >> of the PDP-11. I would say that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems >> supported 56KB, and slightly less young systems supported 248KB. > > > I think you two maybe using different definitions of "young". I agree, Eric, that my view of youngest was confusing to you. If I had provided an example (such as the PDP-11/93), that would have be easier to understand. I have six grandchildren. The youngest is 4 years old and the oldest is 24 years old. The problem, perhaps, is that the youngest PDP-11/93 is about 20 years old and the oldest PDP-11/20 is about 40 years old. More to the point, I was just noting that the STAR100 back in the 1970s had this 48 bit address for memory when core was so expensive that 4 MB of memory was about the physical limit for that system while at about the same time, a lowly PDP-11/20 often had just 8 KB or even 4 KB of core memory - yet 20 years later the PDP-11/93 came with 4 MB of memory on the CPU card, but still with a 16 bit program address even though the physical Qbus address was 22 bits. Jerome Fine From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 20 22:34:43 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: >> I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone mentioned the >> HP15C-LE (Limited Edition) that HP just released? ?I bought one and it is >> quite true to its name. ?It actually runs the original microcode on an >> emulator, so the same bugs the original had are still there. > > Oh, they only made 10,000 of the 15C Limited Edition and HP sold all > of them already? So if you want one you now need to pay ***rare*** > eBay prices? Guess I won't get one after all. I hope this means they're bringing back the 15C as a regular edition since they noticed that they'll sell well. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Oct 20 22:44:49 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:44:49 -0400 Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: <4EA0742E.9050606@gmail.com> References: <20111017162910.G7903@shell.lmi.net> <201110181202.p9IC2k9D014619@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> <4E9DE6B2.20400@neurotica.com> <4E9E1B13.3040609@compsys.to> <4E9E21C1.2090103@brouhaha.com> <4EA0742E.9050606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA0EAB1.6050601@compsys.to> >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >Eric Smith wrote: > >> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> > I find it interesting that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems >> supported >> > 4 MB of memory whereas [...] >> >> I find that statement baffling, as the first PDP-11 to support 4088KB of >> memory wasn't introduced until 1975, five years after the introduction >> of the PDP-11. I would say that the youngest group of PDP-11 systems >> supported 56KB, and slightly less young systems supported 248KB. > > > I think you two maybe using different definitions of "young". Sorry about the "Subject" including [SPAM}. I forgot to remove it. I agree, Eric, that my view of youngest was confusing to you. If I had provided an example (such as the PDP-11/93), that would have be easier to understand. I have six grandchildren. The youngest is 4 years old and the oldest is 24 years old. The problem, perhaps, is that the youngest PDP-11/93 is about 20 years old and the oldest PDP-11/20 is about 40 years old. More to the point, I was just noting that the STAR100 back in the 1970s had this 48 bit address for memory when core was so expensive that 4 MB of memory was about the physical limit for that system while at about the same time, a lowly PDP-11/20 often had just 8 KB or even 4 KB of core memory - yet 20 years later the PDP-11/93 came with 4 MB of memory on the CPU card, but still with a 16 bit program address even though the physical Qbus address was 22 bits. However, the 48 bit address on the STAR100 would support 32 Terra Bytes (I think that is right) of memory which probably almost no systems today have available - even in disk drives, let alone physical memory. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Oct 20 22:58:26 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 23:58:26 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > Hope you're wearing your asbestos skivvies. > > [Snip] > At the risk if being naive, perhaps this list could use a bit of inspiration - to see if we could help the discussion to be more useful. There is a book written by Michael Kahn: "The TAO of Conversation". The primary point is that in an idea conversation, there can never be an opinion which is right or wrong. Attempting to support an opinion helps us to understand the opinion even if we totally disagree with that opinion. While I agree with both of the opinions of Dave McGuire and Liam Proven, it seems difficult to figure out exactly which is more useful because they seem so angry at each other. We could use a bit of "Barn Raising". Jerome Fine From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 23:13:30 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:13:30 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> Message-ID: > We could use a bit of "Barn Raising". Maybe...there is a lot of vitriol on the list lately. Or maybe a barn razing would be more fun. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 23:35:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:35:13 -0700 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EA05837.30159.19C0E54@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EA09411.10933.285D947@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2011 at 18:18, Gene Buckle wrote: > Doesn't that cover pretty much everything ever acquired by CA? :) Just re-read your message. Yeah, I guess it does. :( --Chuck From robinsonbrian07 at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:32:18 2011 From: robinsonbrian07 at gmail.com (Brian Robinson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:32:18 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. Message-ID: This forum was recommended to me as a place to find people who appreciate vintage computing technology, so it seems like an appropriate place to advertise this: A PDP 11/70 Front Panel - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280758702820& Reference material: http://www.hampage.hu/pdp-11/1170.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11 http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/pricing.html The PDP-11/x was perhaps the best selling, most powerful series of supercomputers in the world, going through over ten major revisions in it's lifecycle. A PDP-11 setup would cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. It often required a whole team of people dedicated to overseeing it's operation and managing it's moment-to-moment usage. They were used in everything from business, science and academic research applications to real-time control applications (PBX, traffic, industrial). This is the front control-panel and user interface to the PDP-11/70. It's been in storage for some time and the condition is unknown, but with minimal signs of wear and tear it looks able to be restored to functional condition. Get a legendary piece of computer history right here. You'll have a hard time finding many like it. From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Thu Oct 20 18:41:07 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:41:07 +1100 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> References: <4E9F716E.9010404@neurotica.com> <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> Message-ID: <722D5999-AC9F-40A2-A7B7-7DA1AB57A73F@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 21/10/2011, at 9:45 AM, Dave Mabry wrote: > I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone mentioned the HP15C-LE (Limited Edition) that HP just released? I bought one and it is quite true to its name. It actually runs the original microcode on an emulator, so the same bugs the original had are still there. I run the HP-15C app on my iPhone. It too is an emulator running the original microcode. It means that I always have access to an RPN calculator as I'm rarely more than a few metres away from my phone. The app wasn't cheap but it's good! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 01:40:23 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 07:40:23 +0100 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Due to the large number of pending subscriptions to cctalk and cctech I > am about to 'reject' all of them and request that anyone still waiting > to subscribe please re-subscribe at which point they will be approved That seems a very bad way of dealing with a back log . Add moderators perhaps would be a better way and more responsible. I have seen a few complaints from legitimate users about getting on the list and this just adds to the problems users have to explain to prospective users. I would advise a rethink on that idea. Dave Caroline > quickly. > > Please make sure you only request subscription to one of the lists. > To re-iterate: > cctalk is un-moderated, cctech is moderated > cctalk is a superset of cctech > Anything posted to cctalk appears immediately > Anything posted to cctech is cross-posted to cctalk immediately > Anything posted to cctalk OR cctech is (cross-)posted to cctech if the > moderator (me!) feels it is on-topic - therefore they will always be a > delay before postings appear on cctech > > There are some posts in cctech which are bypassing moderation - we hope > to sort this out soon. > > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 01:43:04 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 07:43:04 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111020163658.Q38896@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <20111020163658.Q38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 21 October 2011 01:02, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > Mostly unrelated Q: In Windoze 3.11, if you used the calculator to subract >> > 3.10 from 3.11 , it gave a result of 0 ! ?What was the cause of THAT >> > error? > > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> An overly truthful upgrade policy? > > Windoze 3.11 was "WFW". ?MS said that that was "Windows For Workgroups", > but some people claimed that the second 'W' was for a word that is > offensively obscene to Brits. :?) There was a Windows 3.11 as well as Windows for Workgroups 3.11, you know. They're not the same thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11#Windows_3.11 > > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Liam Proven wrote: >> :?D >> I'd forgotten that! >> IIRC, the rumour was that it was written by a student on a summer >> work-experience posting. It was considered good enough and included. >> Also, they lost the source code, so it couldn't be readily fixed, and >> in the end had to be completely rewritten by someone costing much more >> money. > > It is handy, and it is nice that the newer one has some minimal > "scientific" and BASE CONVERSION functions. ?It doesn't compare with an > HP REAL calculator, but I can always find it. > > >> Also see Windows Write - again, went pretty much unchanged through >> about 5 or 6 releases of Windows because they'd lost the source. It >> was rewritten and replaced by Wordpad. > > Pointless rambling Windows Write anecdote: I was the first person in the > UC Berkeley School of Library and Information Studies to use a word > processor for PhD written exams. ?Mostly because I publicly demanded that > they publicly state their REASONS for requiring hand written, and I > assured them that I would still be able to make enough spelling erors. > They were panic-stricken over how to "sanitize" a computer so that answers > couldn't be smuggled in! ?But, then they asked ME to pick a > word-processor! ?Since all that I wanted was a TEXT EDITOR and a printer, > I responded, "ANY word processor. ?ANY. ?Just tell me which one a week > ahead, so that I can learn enough of its quirks to use it." ?We settled on > Windows Write, which protected me from even more insane choices or botched > installation, and protected them from the possibility that I might > recompile from source [on PC-Write or the like] or object code edit in > paragraphs of pre-written text. ?But mostly it let them choose which PC to > use at the last minute. ?After all of that, they ended up just handing me > a few blank disks and key to an office with a PC in it, and never even > checked up on me. And then THEY printed out my files. ? I passed. ?Which > shows how sloppy their standards are! Nice. Vaguely parallel story. I used to work for a VAR on the Isle of Man - a small isolated crown dependency in the middle of the Irish Sea. Chap came to one of my employers and told them he was the sole representitive of a UK-wide charity on the Isle of Man & they'd told him to buy a PC. He had a spec. No installation needed - the charity was going to send someone over to install their special S/W on it. He didn't know *anything* about PCs, not even how to turn one on. They sold him a PC. 386, Windows 3.1. He took it back. The charity never sent anyone. 3Y later he came back in. He had, eventually, got bored, unboxed it and puzzled out how to assemble it. He turned it on and played. He discovered Windows Write. He discovered he could print. He didn't have any printer drivers - it was in "generic/text-only" mode. But it worked. He *loved* it. He found Write vastly preferable to a typewriter - on his own, he'd discovered text editing. No formatting. Probably not even the tab key. But he loved it, said it had saved him days and weeks of work. "Fantastic gadget, this thing." He never knew to shut down, so the disk was full of temp files and lost clusters. Didn't matter. He's never discovered file saving or loading - he started a new doc every time and threw it away. It was still a fantastic aid to him. This is why I think computers are too complicated and why I think we still need simpler, easier ones these days. Because the *really* basic stuff can be life-altering, but all the features on top just make it more inaccessible. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From frebird2 at swbell.net Fri Oct 21 02:22:46 2011 From: frebird2 at swbell.net (chris candrl) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 00:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Up for grabs (free) Message-ID: <1319181766.88822.YahooMailClassic@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (2) MODEL 7600 rackmount cases, each populated with 8 Preston SCI floating differential amplifiers, model number 8300 XWB-B.? Can't tell you if any of the amplifiers are working or not, I do not know.? They appear to be in good condition. I also have (4) Mitsubishi 2019CEB40 CRT's.? Three of them look unused - they still have a blue plastic sheet covering the faceplate and have been stored in the original shipping crates.? All of the tubes are coated with a white phosphor. ? If you are interested, contact me offline and I can provide photos of the equipment or additional information.? Location is St. Louis. From david at cantrell.org.uk Fri Oct 21 05:50:25 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:50:25 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111021105025.GA18459@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 03:45:40PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > > > THAT is already present. "float" in C means that it is an approximation > > > to 24 binary significant digits. > > No, it tells you that it can *represent no more than* 24 binary > > significant digits. > > float pi = 3.1f; /* close enough for government work */ > > that the *type* can have 24 significant binary digits doesn't mean > > that the *data* has 24 significant binary digits. > I have to disagree. > float pi = 3.1f; > DOES, INDEED, give you 24 significant digts OF WHAT YOU FED IT. What I'm getting at is that there's no widely understood datatype that lets me say: pi = 3.1 to two significant decimal digits; and that it is foolish to assume that any float is accurate to 24 significant binary digits. The moment you, eg, multiply two floats which are already approximations together, then you lose precision. -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive Irregular English: ladies glow; gentlemen perspire; brutes, oafs and athletes sweat From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 08:17:03 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:17:03 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA0B5EE.4090202@neurotica.com> References: <4EA0B5EE.4090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 20, 2011 8:04 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > > That makes about as much sense as saying "We don't need >screwdrivers anymore, because we have pickles!" Did I hear Pickles ?! :) >Two totally different tools for two totally different jobs. > > Stop the world, I wanna get off. > Next stop, Quantum Atomic Pickle Pandamonium ;) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 21 08:23:43 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:23:43 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: , <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net>, <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4EA1725F.1040100@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/10/11 4:15 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Excel is easy to use and comes with all Windows based computers. Is that true? I thought it was part of Microsoft Office, which is frequently sold separately. (The first platform for Excel was Macintosh, of course.) --T > Sadly I am > not old enough (or lucky enough) to have used any alternatives - though I > have heard of Lotus long before I joined this list. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > From paisley at erols.com Fri Oct 21 08:23:53 2011 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:23:53 -0400 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Wanted References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <201110201717.04607.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <157b001cc8ff4$aebebdf0$020a0a0a@cj2a> I am looking for a DEC H960 rack, Prefer it be in the USA. Any help in finding one would be appreciated. Thanks! Todd Paisley From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 08:42:45 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:42:45 -0500 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Due to the large number of pending subscriptions to cctalk and cctech I > am about to 'reject' all of them and request that anyone still waiting > to subscribe please re-subscribe at which point they will be approved > quickly. What's the normal accept/reject process for potential new subscribers? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 08:45:49 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:45:49 -0500 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA1778D.3070703@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Excel - well, it's the most polished spreadsheet there's ever been. >> Other did some things better, but Excel does everything you could ever >> need. > > Actually it doesn't do everything I could ever need which leads me to a > serious qyestion : Not doing more than you need is one of the metrics for a program doing everything that you could ever need :-) From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 08:57:12 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:57:12 -0400 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> Well, for me it was "wait approximately two years for an answer, then get rejected and told to reattempt subscription". But at least I'm on the list now! On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: >> Due to the large number of pending subscriptions to cctalk and cctech I >> am about to 'reject' all of them and request that anyone still waiting >> to subscribe please re-subscribe at which point they will be approved >> quickly. > > What's the normal accept/reject process for potential new subscribers? > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 09:12:46 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:12:46 -0400 Subject: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <4E9DE51D.2000304@neurotica.com> <201110201803.p9KI33V1015972@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EA17DDE.6040101@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > There was an x86 port of AIX (v2, IIRC) in the late '80s, but it > didn't get anywhere and was axed. (*Checks*) It was done by Locus > Corp, says Wikipedia, not IBM. What do you mean, axed? It was *eventually* canceled, but there were at least two versions actually *released*. Peace... Sridhar From jonas at otter.se Fri Oct 21 08:51:57 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:51:57 +0200 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <259c88177913f81a42e8bd01e95fea8e@otter.se> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:18:06 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> years ago). How hard is it to replace the batteries? > > Very easy. > > The battery pack clips into the bottom of the machine, you just slide > it > slightly forwards (towards the '0 key end' of the machine and lift > the > rear edge to get it out. > > The battery pack contains 2 AA-size NICd cells connected in series, > normally by a double-spring thingy (that;s a highly techncial term, > of > course). The housing is made in 2 parts which were glued together. > You > cna crack the glued joint, take it apart, and fit new cells. > > But actually, I don't recomend doing that. It's better to cut away > the > pack housing ad the front end, where the cells touch the contacts in > the > calculator. Then silde out the old cells and slide in the new ones -- > taking care of the polarity (since HP calculators were designed for > use > with their own battery packs only, which only fitted the right way > round, > there is no reverse-polarity protection. The cells will be held in > place > when the pack is clipped into the calculator, and you can remove the > cells easiy for charging in a normal charger, thus avoiding possible > damage to -C models. > There is a *much* easier way to do it, which doesn't mutilate the pack anywhere as badly. Cut through the strip of plastic which runs along the pack between the batteries at one end, using e.g. a pair of side cutters or a scalpel. The strip will now flex out of the way sufficiently for you to be able to prise the batteries out, one at a time. Then push the new batteries in the same way. This operation doesn't weaken the pack mechanically to any noticeable extent, it can be used just as before, and the batteries can be replaced any number of times. OTOH it is harder (not very) to get the cells out to charge them in a normal charger. Note that the contacts in the calculator are simply large rivets soldered in to circuit board fingers. That solution is a bit of a let-down IMO, as is using the battery as a load to reduce the voltage from the charger, simply limiting the current with a whopping big resistor. It could have been done a lot better, and not much more expensively. Everybody who had an HP-25 (just about everybody who didn't have a TI-57) when I was at University learnt to do this. /Jonas From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 09:19:34 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:19:34 -0400 Subject: More HP Calculators Message-ID: <4EA17F76.4060607@gmail.com> I understand that the build quality of the 49G isn't up to the build quality of the 48SX. How does the build quality (I'm mostly interested in the build quality of the keyboard...) of the 48GX, 48GII, and 50G compare with the 48SX? How do they compare with that of the 49G? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 09:23:41 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:23:41 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA058E1.30263.19EA664@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EA0B779.1070306@mich.com> <4EA058E1.30263.19EA664@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA1806D.4030305@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> They have been "sold out" and then a week or so later came available >> again. That batch also sold out. I'm keeping my eyes open and will >> grab one more if I can. I think they are coming from the actual >> manufacturer (in China, no doubt) in batches. >> >> It is getting rave reviews from even the curmudgeons on the hpmuseum >> forum. > > Is there a "Limited Edition" HP16C available? > > I'd certainly buy one. I'd probably buy *at least* one. Peace... Sridhar From wrh at wootsie.com Fri Oct 21 09:58:29 2011 From: wrh at wootsie.com (wrh at wootsie.com) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:58:29 -0500 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I feel like I've won the lottery! I made it onto cctalk after 1+ year of trying! Booyah! -Bill On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:57 AM, David Riley wrote: > Well, for me it was "wait approximately two years for an answer, then get rejected and told to reattempt subscription". ?But at least I'm on the list now! > > > > On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: >>> Due to the large number of pending subscriptions to cctalk and cctech I >>> am about to 'reject' all of them and request that anyone still waiting >>> to subscribe please re-subscribe at which point they will be approved >>> quickly. >> >> What's the normal accept/reject process for potential new subscribers? >> > > > From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 10:31:40 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Benjamin_S=C3=B8lberg?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:31:40 +0200 Subject: Cctech or cctalk Message-ID: <43F78BCF-5D9F-4CAF-8EAA-8B86434E79D6@gmail.com> Hi All I finally got aproved after waiting "for a while" :-) If i were to ask about the pps-4/1 would it be here or on cctalk ? Med venlig hilsen/Regards Benjamin S?lberg From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 21 10:36:18 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:36:18 -0500 Subject: Assembler for 21xx and hp1000 systems... References: <201110192212.50250.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <201110201717.04607.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Glen wrote.... > One limitation is that I have an 800BPI 7970B with the HP specific > non-Pertec inteface which I can't connect to any other systems, and > the other Pertec interface tape drives which I can connect to other > systems to write tapes are 1600/6250 BPI. So I can't write an 800BPI > diagnostic tape myself, unless I hack up some way to do that directly > from the HP system, which I suppose I could do if I actually spent > some time working on it... Don't you have disc on the system? You can make a bootable diagnostics disc cartridge, that's what I use typically. J From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 10:51:42 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:51:42 -0500 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA1950E.4040205@gmail.com> David Riley wrote: > Well, for me it was "wait approximately two years for an answer, then > get rejected and told to reattempt subscription". But at least I'm on > the list now! Well, welcome! (And I'm resisting the urge to say anything about top-posting ;-) I'm just curious what the moderator process is for subscriptions (it's been a while - probably a good ten years since I re-joined the list, having gone on hiatus for a few years prior to that) - therefore I'm not sure what, if anything, is done to filter out spam subscriptions; maybe blanket approval of anything pending makes more sense (but perhaps there's some reason that the backlog can't be processed via script) I suppose some people join the list just to ask a question or two and then depart - and I know some have joined and been overwhelmed by the level of traffic, so have left again. But my guess is that the majority join because of a continued interest in vintage computers, so it doesn't really matter if their subscription is processed late - they'll still be interested in joining. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 10:59:32 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:59:32 -0500 Subject: Cctech or cctalk In-Reply-To: <43F78BCF-5D9F-4CAF-8EAA-8B86434E79D6@gmail.com> References: <43F78BCF-5D9F-4CAF-8EAA-8B86434E79D6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA196E4.2040203@gmail.com> Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > Hi All > > I finally got aproved after waiting "for a while" :-) > > If i were to ask about the pps-4/1 would it be here or on cctalk ? Either, I think; as it's concerning vintage computers it'll automatically show up on both lists. As I understand it, cctech is just a duplicate list of cctalk, but moderators filter out anything considered off-topic for the cctech users, so they *only* get to see messages related to vintage systems. You don't need to be subscribed to both lists - pick one or the other depending on whether you like the occasional* off-topic traffic or not. * it varies, sometimes there's a lot of off-topic content on cctalk compared to posts about vintage machines, but at other times hardly any. Lots of us who are signed up to cctalk have common interests broadly based around science and engineering anyway, so we find even the "off-topic" stuff interesting. cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 11:13:41 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:13:41 -0400 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <4EA1950E.4040205@gmail.com> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> <4EA1950E.4040205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F7759AE-47A7-4196-9542-91ADFB9EA8C2@gmail.com> On Oct 21, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > David Riley wrote: >> Well, for me it was "wait approximately two years for an answer, then >> get rejected and told to reattempt subscription". But at least I'm on >> the list now! > > Well, welcome! (And I'm resisting the urge to say anything about top-posting ;-) Yes, I tend to forget about top-/bottom-posting customs on older mailing lists. I got used to bottom-posting, then in the professional world it ended up freaking people out ("you sent me an empty reply!" from people who don't bother to check the bottom), so I got used to the other way. Ah, well. I see the merits of both approaches, it's just hard to keep them straight in my head. :-) - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 21 11:14:07 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <20111020163658.Q38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111021091110.U70872@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Liam Proven wrote: > This is why I think computers are too complicated and why I think we > still need simpler, easier ones these days. Because the *really* basic > stuff can be life-altering, but all the features on top just make it > more inaccessible. I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone. - Bjarne Stroustrup From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 11:19:36 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:19:36 +0200 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted Message-ID: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> Hi all I am a retro fan doing both EE and CE. I started with ZX81/Lambda/New Brain/Commodore. I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the missing "/1" postfix) here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf And I found the owners manual for the game here: http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip that I believe is used in the game. I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined RAM/ROM. So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. So I would like to hear all you guys if anyone of you could provide me more information on the specific chip and if all my guesses are right or wrong. Also if there is some way to dump the rom (without decapping the chip). The end goal for me is to create an PPS-1 emulator (and possible running the game) Regards Benjamin From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 21 12:15:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:15:49 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA1806D.4030305@gmail.com> References: , , <4EA0B779.1070306@mich.com> <4EA058E1.30263.19EA664@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA1806D.4030305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA1A8C5.40906@neurotica.com> On 10/21/11 10:23 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> They have been "sold out" and then a week or so later came available >>> again. That batch also sold out. I'm keeping my eyes open and will >>> grab one more if I can. I think they are coming from the actual >>> manufacturer (in China, no doubt) in batches. >>> >>> It is getting rave reviews from even the curmudgeons on the hpmuseum >>> forum. >> >> Is there a "Limited Edition" HP16C available? >> >> I'd certainly buy one. > > I'd probably buy *at least* one. You and me both! I'd pre-order two RIGHT NOW if they were going to be available. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 21 12:16:35 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:16:35 +0200 Subject: More HP Calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA17F76.4060607@gmail.com> References: <4EA17F76.4060607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111021191635.33a05c7f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:19:34 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How does the build quality [...] of the 48GX, 48GII, and 50G > compare with the 48SX? How do they compare with that of the 49G? HP48 S/SX/G/GX use the same enclosure and keyboard. Don't know about the rest. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 12:31:00 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:31:00 +0200 Subject: Cctech or cctalk In-Reply-To: <4EA196E4.2040203@gmail.com> References: <43F78BCF-5D9F-4CAF-8EAA-8B86434E79D6@gmail.com> <4EA196E4.2040203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07F66A5E-CA41-4E88-A219-5723F2A88C0F@gmail.com> Hi Jules Thank you very much. I just wrote to cctalk regarding the PPS-4. Regards Benjamin On Oct 21, 2011, at 5:59 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Benjamin S?lberg wrote: >> Hi All >> I finally got aproved after waiting "for a while" :-) >> If i were to ask about the pps-4/1 would it be here or on cctalk ? > > Either, I think; as it's concerning vintage computers it'll automatically show up on both lists. > > As I understand it, cctech is just a duplicate list of cctalk, but moderators filter out anything considered off-topic for the cctech users, so they *only* get to see messages related to vintage systems. > > You don't need to be subscribed to both lists - pick one or the other depending on whether you like the occasional* off-topic traffic or not. > > * it varies, sometimes there's a lot of off-topic content on cctalk compared to posts about vintage machines, but at other times hardly any. Lots of us who are signed up to cctalk have common interests broadly based around science and engineering anyway, so we find even the "off-topic" stuff interesting. > > cheers > > Jules From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Oct 21 12:39:18 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:39:18 -0400 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. > > The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA > and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller > (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. Many of the Mattel games of that era were variants on Rockwell calculator chips. Not unrelated to 4-bit general purpose CPU's of the era, but the game chips were way closer to the calculator chips. Read the interview with the game's designer, Mark Lesser: http://www.digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_mark_lesser.html Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 12:51:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:51:37 -0700 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4EA14EB9.23190.2E48E0@cclist.sydex.com> Wasn't the PPS4 or PPS8 used in a number of arcade games back when? One or the other was also used in the Diablo dot-matrix printer. I remember seeing the odd-looking packages when I had one open. --Chuck From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:22:04 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:22:04 +0200 Subject: RIP Roger Tallon Message-ID: He was a French designer, and he invented the word "minitel", among other things. Read more on the wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Tallon -- Stephane http://en.freedonne.org join my Kiva or BOINC team! From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:39:54 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:39:54 +0200 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2011, at 7:39 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. >> >> The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA >> and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller >> (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. > > Many of the Mattel games of that era were variants on Rockwell calculator chips. > Not unrelated to 4-bit general purpose CPU's of the era, but the game chips were > way closer to the calculator chips. > > Read the interview with the game's designer, Mark Lesser: > > http://www.digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_mark_lesser.html > > Tim. > Hi Tim Wow that was a really cool read. I eat it all. Thank you very much for the link! But now I have to live with scattered dreams about emulating the CPU and the game. Only chance is to simulate the game which isn't that interesting I guess... Regards Benjamin From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:42:26 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:42:26 +0200 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EA14EB9.23190.2E48E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA14EB9.23190.2E48E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2011, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wasn't the PPS4 or PPS8 used in a number of arcade games back when? > > One or the other was also used in the Diablo dot-matrix printer. I > remember seeing the odd-looking packages when I had one open. > > --Chuck > > Hi Chuck Yes it was. I think it was the PPS-8 (the 8 bit version of PPS-4). The odd looking package looks like this : http://www.cpu-museum.com/Bilder/Rockwell-PPS-4_1.jpg Regards Benjamin From pinball at telus.net Fri Oct 21 13:36:31 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:36:31 -0700 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> References: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA1BBAF.6020003@telus.net> Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > Hi all > > I am a retro fan doing both EE and CE. > > I started with ZX81/Lambda/New Brain/Commodore. > > I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. > > The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. > > I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the missing "/1" postfix) here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf > > And I found the owners manual for the game here: > http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf > > But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip that I believe is used in the game. > > I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). > > I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined RAM/ROM. > > So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. > > I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. > > So I would like to hear all you guys if anyone of you could provide me more information on the specific chip and if all my guesses are right or wrong. > > Also if there is some way to dump the rom (without decapping the chip). > The end goal for me is to create an PPS-1 emulator (and possible running the game) > > Regards > Benjamin > You have mail...I have archived a few PPS/4 manuals - thought I had sent them to Al, but perhaps not. Anyway I am sending you a copy of the PPS4-2 2-chip micro PDF. I'll fling these off to Al as well.... John :-#)# From jrr at flippers.com Fri Oct 21 13:47:08 2011 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:47:08 -0700 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> References: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA1BE2C.4020205@flippers.com> Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > Hi all > > I am a retro fan doing both EE and CE. > > I started with ZX81/Lambda/New Brain/Commodore. > > I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. > > The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. > > I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the missing "/1" postfix) here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf > > And I found the owners manual for the game here: > http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf > > But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip that I believe is used in the game. > > I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). > > I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined RAM/ROM. > > So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. > > I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. > > So I would like to hear all you guys if anyone of you could provide me more information on the specific chip and if all my guesses are right or wrong. > > Also if there is some way to dump the rom (without decapping the chip). > The end goal for me is to create an PPS-1 emulator (and possible running the game) > > Regards > Benjamin > (revised) You have mail...I have archived a few PPS/4 manuals - thought I had sent them to Al, but perhaps not. Anyway I am sending you copies of the PPS4 1-chip micro PDFs - MM78 and MM76. I'll fling these off to Al (bitsavers) as well.... John :-#)# From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 21 14:10:35 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Outlook in comparison Message-ID: <20111021120012.T76607@shell.lmi.net> I am changing my opinion on Outlook. I just experienced the State Farm Insurance "Secure Messaging Center". In comparison, Outhouse is MAGNIFICENT! For example, the State Farm system will not permit cc'ing an email address outside of their system (my own!). What's so frigging secret about an insurance claim?? The State Farm system times out after 15 minutes while composing a message. When it times out, there is NO warning. No "1 minute until doom". No "want to extend/continue?". No "want to save?" No automatic save of compositions in progress! Their "systems programmers" have told them that their hands are tied, and that it isn't possible to implement those "features"! When I first started using PINE, I wasn't completely satisfied. But each "Modern" system that I've tried has made me appreciate it more. And this State Farm system makes Outhouse look good. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Oct 21 14:23:53 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:23:53 +0100 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 2:57 PM, David Riley wrote: > Well, for me it was "wait approximately two years for an answer, then get rejected and told to reattempt subscription". ?But at least I'm on the list now! You too huh? All I did was try to change my email address, because my email address, well, changed. Then I get shut out for two years... then I get rejected. It's good to be back though! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Its?not the years honey,?its the mileage..." From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 21 14:35:40 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111021105025.GA18459@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <20111021105025.GA18459@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20111021122903.R76607@shell.lmi.net> > > DOES, INDEED, give you 24 significant digts OF WHAT YOU FED IT. On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > What I'm getting at is that there's no widely understood datatype that > lets me say: > pi = 3.1 to two significant decimal digits; THAT I agree with. My crude implementation proposal is: struct floatwprec3 { float value3; int precision3; } that at least lets you say: pi.value3 = 3.1; pi.lostprec = 2; [note: the '3', or other numeric digit, is to make it immediately obvious that something is a variable name, not a reserved word, etc.] > and that it is foolish to assume that any float is accurate to 24 > significant binary digits. The moment you, eg, multiply two floats > which are already approximations together, then you lose precision. absolutely agreed. Creating a float gives you 24 bit accurate approximation of what you feed it. Every subsequent assignment based on calculations further reduces that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 21 14:38:51 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My beef with some compiler writers is that they'll often do you a > favor by silently rearranging expressions to make use of distributive > or associative properties and that series that *used* converge neatly > now no longer does. Which harkens back to the NEED to have any "optimization" include a way to explicitly over-ride or lockout that aptimizing, when the programmer deems it to be inappropriate. But, it takes a helluva lot of work to know what the compiler is going to do to your code. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 21 14:50:53 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <3F7759AE-47A7-4196-9542-91ADFB9EA8C2@gmail.com> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> <4EA1950E.4040205@gmail.com> <3F7759AE-47A7-4196-9542-91ADFB9EA8C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111021124623.B76607@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Riley wrote: > Yes, I tend to forget about top-/bottom-posting customs on older mailing > lists. I got used to bottom-posting, then in the professional world it > ended up freaking people out ("you sent me an empty reply!" from people > who don't bother to check the bottom), so I got used to the other way. > Ah, well. I see the merits of both approaches, it's just hard to keep > them straight in my head. :-) Bottom posting requires coscientious trimming of quoted material. Top posting encourages leaving an archive of everything that has been said since the last time that somebody trimmed. Accordingly the terminally clueless (such as college administators) who will never learn simple etiquette of trimming, need to be on top-posting systems. Note that Outhouse (and State Farm's Clueless Messaging) push top-posting. We operate on the assumption that those who finally get admitted here are those who are capable of learning. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 14:56:13 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:56:13 +0200 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EA1BE2C.4020205@flippers.com> References: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> <4EA1BE2C.4020205@flippers.com> Message-ID: <4A4F8EC2-2A81-4FB8-ACD9-B66AAD473ABA@gmail.com> On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:47 PM, John Robertson wrote: > Benjamin S?lberg wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I am a retro fan doing both EE and CE. >> >> I started with ZX81/Lambda/New Brain/Commodore. >> >> I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. >> >> The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. >> >> I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the missing "/1" postfix) here: >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf >> >> And I found the owners manual for the game here: >> http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf >> >> But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip that I believe is used in the game. >> >> I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). >> >> I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined RAM/ROM. >> >> So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. >> >> I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. >> >> So I would like to hear all you guys if anyone of you could provide me more information on the specific chip and if all my guesses are right or wrong. >> >> Also if there is some way to dump the rom (without decapping the chip). >> The end goal for me is to create an PPS-1 emulator (and possible running the game) >> Regards >> Benjamin >> > > (revised) > > You have mail...I have archived a few PPS/4 manuals - thought I had sent > them to Al, but perhaps not. Anyway I am sending you copies of the > PPS4 1-chip micro PDFs - MM78 and MM76. I'll fling these off to Al (bitsavers) as well.... > > John :-#)# > > > > > Hi John Thats really greate news regarding the PPS-4/1 chips. I am reading the documents right now. Did actually send two mails to bitsaver (to emils that i guessed) but got "no such account" on both attempts, so i am glad to hear that you have a direct "channel" :-) From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 14:58:31 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:58:31 +0200 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <20111021124623.B76607@shell.lmi.net> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> <4EA1950E.4040205@gmail.com> <3F7759AE-47A7-4196-9542-91ADFB9EA8C2@gmail.com> <20111021124623.B76607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Riley wrote: >> Yes, I tend to forget about top-/bottom-posting customs on older mailing >> lists. I got used to bottom-posting, then in the professional world it >> ended up freaking people out ("you sent me an empty reply!" from people >> who don't bother to check the bottom), so I got used to the other way. >> Ah, well. I see the merits of both approaches, it's just hard to keep >> them straight in my head. :-) > > > We operate on the assumption that those who finally get admitted here are > those who are capable of learning. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com oops.. I'd better learn fast then! Regards Benjamin From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 15:13:31 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:13:31 -0400 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EA1BE2C.4020205@flippers.com> References: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> <4EA1BE2C.4020205@flippers.com> Message-ID: <426D568B-96E5-4DEE-BDC6-C08ADC738EA3@gmail.com> Hey, that reminds me. What's the best address to send to bitsavers these days? I have an NCR53C90A datasheet that took FOREVER to find (someone on a NeXT forum managed to find a pile of TIFF files that someone had scanned and posted somewhere else), but all of the contact info on bitsavers' page seems to be broken. Also, if anyone needs a 53C90A/B datasheet, I have it. :-) - Dave On Oct 21, 2011, at 2:47 PM, John Robertson wrote: > Benjamin S?lberg wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I am a retro fan doing both EE and CE. >> >> I started with ZX81/Lambda/New Brain/Commodore. >> >> I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. >> >> The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. >> >> I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the missing "/1" postfix) here: >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf >> >> And I found the owners manual for the game here: >> http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf >> >> But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip that I believe is used in the game. >> >> I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). >> >> I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined RAM/ROM. >> >> So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. >> >> I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. >> >> So I would like to hear all you guys if anyone of you could provide me more information on the specific chip and if all my guesses are right or wrong. >> >> Also if there is some way to dump the rom (without decapping the chip). >> The end goal for me is to create an PPS-1 emulator (and possible running the game) >> Regards >> Benjamin >> > > (revised) > > You have mail...I have archived a few PPS/4 manuals - thought I had sent > them to Al, but perhaps not. Anyway I am sending you copies of the > PPS4 1-chip micro PDFs - MM78 and MM76. I'll fling these off to Al (bitsavers) as well.... > > John :-#)# > > > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 15:18:34 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:18:34 -0400 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <20111021124623.B76607@shell.lmi.net> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> <4EA1950E.4040205@gmail.com> <3F7759AE-47A7-4196-9542-91ADFB9EA8C2@gmail.com> <20111021124623.B76607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <17D42CA1-3153-4AC2-BFD5-74EF8EEA1A8E@gmail.com> On Oct 21, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Bottom posting requires coscientious trimming of quoted material. > Top posting encourages leaving an archive of everything that has been said > since the last time that somebody trimmed. Exactly the argument I hear every time. It's not that I disagree, I just forget who prefers what. :-) In any case, I've existed on plenty of lists that get rather snippy (har har) about untrimmed top-posting (misc at openbsd.org, in particular, is not a place where you want to be a slow learner). I'm pretty sure I'll remember better once I'm in the swing of things. > Accordingly the terminally clueless (such as college administators) who > will never learn simple etiquette of trimming, need to be on top-posting > systems. Note that Outhouse (and State Farm's Clueless Messaging) push > top-posting. Indeed. Apple's Mail.app allows a selection of either, though it doesn't have any functionality for doing it per-list (which might be some complicated AI anyway). Where I work (engineering), it's a combination of incompetence (which is rife amongst our customers) and the desire to have the entire conversation in the message so that you can basically forward the whole thread on to someone instantly. Gets used maybe 1e-12 percent of the time. - Dave From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Oct 21 15:35:13 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:35:13 +0200 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA1D781.8070709@update.uu.se> On 10/21/2011 09:23 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 2:57 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Well, for me it was "wait approximately two years for an answer, then get rejected and told to reattempt subscription". But at least I'm on the list now! > You too huh? All I did was try to change my email address, because my > email address, well, changed. Then I get shut out for two years... > then I get rejected. It's good to be back though! I must have applied twice because I've on the list for two or so years _and_ I got the rejection mail :) My friend on the other hand was only rejected and thought it meant he would not be accepted at all. The message in the rejection mail could have been more inviting. May I suggest that a second invitation mail is sent next week to those who go rejected but did _not_ reapply. All in all, I hope this kick starts the process of accepting new members. Cheers, Pontus. From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 15:42:48 2011 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:42:48 +1100 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <17D42CA1-3153-4AC2-BFD5-74EF8EEA1A8E@gmail.com> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> <4EA1950E.4040205@gmail.com> <3F7759AE-47A7-4196-9542-91ADFB9EA8C2@gmail.com> <20111021124623.B76607@shell.lmi.net> <17D42CA1-3153-4AC2-BFD5-74EF8EEA1A8E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ea1d94a.c5c7440a.30fa.ffff9949@mx.google.com> On Oct 21, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Accordingly the terminally clueless (such as college administators) who > will never learn simple etiquette of trimming, need to be on top-posting > systems. Note that Outhouse (and State Farm's Clueless Messaging) push > top-posting. Actually Outlook allows a variety of methods for message quoting and it takes very little effort to change to one that suits you. It's one of the few that gives you a choice in that respect. Lance From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 15:47:25 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:47:25 -0400 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: <4EA1D781.8070709@update.uu.se> References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> <4EA1D781.8070709@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2011, at 4:35 PM, Pontus wrote: > My friend on the other hand was only rejected and thought it meant he would not be accepted at all. The message in the rejection mail could have been more inviting. I actually thought it was pretty clear once I read past the subject line. I reapplied immediately because it told me to. Did some earlier messages go out without that instruction? - Dave From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Oct 21 16:13:20 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:13:20 +0200 Subject: cctalk and cctech List subscriptions In-Reply-To: References: <1319144618.11680.9.camel@entasis> <4EA176D5.6090807@gmail.com> <2345F0DC-7B8F-48B8-A6ED-9CDEC4B1F7B9@gmail.com> <4EA1D781.8070709@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4EA1E070.2090403@update.uu.se> On 10/21/2011 10:47 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 21, 2011, at 4:35 PM, Pontus wrote: > >> My friend on the other hand was only rejected and thought it meant he would not be accepted at all. The message in the rejection mail could have been more inviting. > I actually thought it was pretty clear once I read past the subject line. I reapplied immediately because it told me to. Did some earlier messages go out without that instruction? > > - Dave Hmm, I re-read it and it was pretty clear. Perhaps my friend skimmed it. /P From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Oct 21 16:23:59 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:23:59 +0000 Subject: Working as a systems programmer on IBM big iron In-Reply-To: <201110202054.p9KKsb4m000951@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> References: <201110202054.p9KKsb4m000951@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D767@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: vintagecoder at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 1:55 PM > Responding to myself and Rich: > I said: >>> If somebody was actually a sysprog *at the time in an IBM shop* and >>> can tell what was released and when they started copyrighting things, >>> then great. > Rich said: >> I *know* what I'm talking about, with regard to access to IBM sources. I >> was at SHARE in San Francisco when the great OCO debate heated up again, >> and still have my button reading "When source is outlawed, only outlaws >> will have source" in my collection. I remember the discussions of the >> changes in US copyright law, including court cases, which allowed program >> sources to be copyrighted and have the copyrights stand up, in >> _ComputerWorld_ and _Datamation_ and other trade rags. > So, since you were, what was the last release that was not copyrighted and > what was the first release that was? MVS 3.8J (that is, OS/VS2 Release 3.8, revision J) is definitely not. It came out after we moved off IBM hardware for about 5 years at Chicago. I seem to remember that we ran OS/MVT on the 370/168 Mod 3, rather than any release of OS/VS2. We ran an Amdahl 470 v8 under SVS (OS/VS2 Release 1--even then I kept wanting it to be OS/VS1, but that was MFT's follow-on) from 1979 to 1984. At that time, we went back to IBM hardware in the form of a 3031 running MVS. I don't remember the exact version, because I was moving more and more into the DEC-20 world at the time, and it didn't mke any difference with respect to the JCL translator I wrote. I think by the time we went to MVS, it was under copyright, which makes it post-3.8J. > And when was the change to OCO? I think OCO came in in the mid 1980s, but in any case well after I stopped caring, so 1985 or later. We got 2 4381s running VM/HPO at LOTS (Stanford's academic computing facility) in 1986, to go with our 4 -20s, but I had nothing to do with running them. (Unlike the -20s with 1 system programmer (me), we hired 3 systems people to run the 2 IBM boxes.) I don't recall for certain, but I *think* they may have been OCO. Something tells me that I expressed surprise and disgust at that turn of events. :-/ Sorry to be vague, but at the time, I had other concerns. Now, I have to figure out what OS we're going to run on a 360/40 with 64K. (OK, I'm not alone in this, but I've got the most IBM experience on the team so far.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 16:33:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:33:53 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111021122903.R76607@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111021105025.GA18459@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111021122903.R76607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA182D1.32332.F9C613@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > DOES, INDEED, give you 24 significant digts OF WHAT YOU FED IT. > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > > What I'm getting at is that there's no widely understood datatype > > that lets me say: pi = 3.1 to two significant decimal digits; Howzabout: 77 PI PIC 9V9 VALUE 3.1. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 15:25:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:25:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EA02DD1.11388.F66DC1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 20, 11 02:18:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 20 Oct 2011 at 21:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Unless you _know_ the outer glass layer has no safety function, I > > certianly wonldn't remove it. > > In the US, it was not uncommon for old TV manufacturers to use a > separate flat sheet of glass in front of the (unprotected) screen for > just this purpose. Same over here. Before the intruction of CRTs with integral implosion protection in the early 1960s, TV sets had either a sheet of laminated safety glass in front of the screen or later a sheet of perspex or similar. Of course the _very_ early TVs over here didn't bother becasue the viewer didn't look directly at the screen. The CRT was mounted vertically with the screen at the top due to the long length of the neck (small defleciton angle) and you saw the picture reflected in a front-silvered mirror in the lid of the cabinet, But I digress. Certainly my 1961 Brimar databook refers to 'Twin Panel Teletubes' which have a second layer of glass (or plastic in some cases) bonded ot the screen to and an implostion protection. > > The guy on YouTube, fron what I can tell, does not attempt to use a > uniform layer of PVA to reattach the implosion shield, but merely > sticks the shield on at the edges. I suppose this may be sufficient > for small CRTs. I'd not want to be sitting in front of one... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 15:09:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:09:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA0465A.5090702@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 20, 11 06:03:38 pm Message-ID: > Surprise surprise, apparently Excel will let you work with complex > numbers. It seems you have to install the "Analysis Pak" (which > apparently is supplied with Excel, see e.g. > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/load-the-analysis-toolpak-HP001127724.aspx > for the 2003 version). Interesting. This is not at all well-known (I know people who use Excel and who need complex numbers who haven't found this...) I must look into this and see just what it does. In particular, is a complex number something that's sotred in oen cell or two (if the latter, it's a kludge!)? Do the normal arithmetic operators work with them or do you have special functions (written in prefix as opposed to infix notation) to do this? > That of course doesn't mean that it handles them as well as your HP > calculators :-) Few things do :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 15:38:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:38:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA0A481.9060206@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Oct 20, 11 06:45:21 pm Message-ID: > > I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone mentioned > the HP15C-LE (Limited Edition) that HP just released? I bought one and I tried one out at an HPCC meeting and I was very disapointed. After eveyone telling me how great the 15C was, I was not impressed. Yes, it was a great machine for its time, and as such I regards the origianl 15C as being a very interesting machine. But if you're going to buy a calcualtor now (and thus put up with modern build quality, etc) there are better choics (the 15C LE is about the same price as the 50G, for exmaple). > it is quite true to its name. It actually runs the original microcode > on an emulator, so the same bugs the original had are still there. Along with some others that weren't in the original. The PSE bug, for example (I've alredy been contcated by a fellow HPCC member to ask what he was doing wrong when he hit that bug). The keyboard feel is not as good as the original either. And it's not as well made from what I've seen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 15:44:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:44:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA0B5EE.4090202@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 20, 11 07:59:42 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/20/2011 03:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'ev been > > told many times that the reason I can't get a 'good' scientific > > calcualtor any more is that 'everybody uses a spreadsheet'. > > That makes about as much sense as saying "We don't need screwdrivers > anymore, because we have pickles!" Two totally different tools for two > totally different jobs. Don't maon at me. I'm just repeating it... FWIW, I use a spreadsheet when it's appropriate (I have 1-2-3 on my HP palmtops and Portable+) adnd a clacultor when that's the better tool (which for me is most of the time). But anyway... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 16:00:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:00:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: More HP Calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA17F76.4060607@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Oct 21, 11 10:19:34 am Message-ID: > > > I understand that the build quality of the 49G isn't up to the build > quality of the 48SX. How does the build quality (I'm mostly interested > in the build quality of the keyboard...) of the 48GX, 48GII, and 50G > compare with the 48SX? How do they compare with that of the 49G? AFAIK the mechaicnal construction of the 48SX, 38S, 48GX and 48G are all the same. And the 48GII and 50G are simialr, if not indentical in quality. IMHO the 49G is by far the worst of the lot. It's the worst keyboard on any HP scientific calcualtor. I would say the original 48 seires is better than the 50G, but not all that much better. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 16:10:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:10:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=" at Oct 21, 11 06:19:36 pm Message-ID: Not that I know anything about this microcontroller or the game... > > I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week = > 14. > > The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I = > guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 = > cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. > > I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the = > missing "/1" postfix) here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf Have you traced out enough of the scheamtic of the game to see if this could possibly be the device in question. Do things like the power pins, clock oscillator, etc, all match up? > > And I found the owners manual for the game here: > = > http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf= > > > But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip = > that I believe is used in the game. > > I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and = > the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). It might be /2 (chips) and /1 (chip) :-) > > I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a = > minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined = > RAM/ROM. > > So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a = > PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal = > combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. > > I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a = > "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. I would be very suprised. EAROM did exist in 1979 (I think) but it was expensive and small capacity, It would not make sense to use it for the firmware store of a mcirocontroller, and certainly not in a commerical product like this. The ROM _might_ been EPROM, but I doubt that too. Msot likely it is masked ROM, and there bay be no way to (officially) read it out. There may be a test mode that allows you to get access to the ROM, whether that's docuemtned or not I don't know. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Oct 21 16:35:38 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:35:38 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Brian Robinson Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:32 PM > The PDP-11/x was perhaps the best selling, most powerful series of > supercomputers in the world, going through over ten major revisions in it's > lifecycle. A PDP-11 setup would cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of > dollars. It often required a whole team of people dedicated to overseeing > it's operation and managing it's moment-to-moment usage. They were used in > everything from business, science and academic research applications to > real-time control applications (PBX, traffic, industrial). This is a joke, right? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 21 16:39:52 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:39:52 -0700 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <426D568B-96E5-4DEE-BDC6-C08ADC738EA3@gmail.com> References: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com>, <4EA1BE2C.4020205@flippers.com>, <426D568B-96E5-4DEE-BDC6-C08ADC738EA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Send an email to Al Kossow. Describe what you have and the quality of the scanning. He will let you know if he will put it on bitsavers and where to send it. Dwight > Subject: Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted > From: fraveydank at gmail.com > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:13:31 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Hey, that reminds me. What's the best address to send to bitsavers these days? I have an NCR53C90A datasheet that took FOREVER to find (someone on a NeXT forum managed to find a pile of TIFF files that someone had scanned and posted somewhere else), but all of the contact info on bitsavers' page seems to be broken. > > Also, if anyone needs a 53C90A/B datasheet, I have it. :-) > > - Dave > > On Oct 21, 2011, at 2:47 PM, John Robertson wrote: > > > Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > >> Hi all > >> > >> I am a retro fan doing both EE and CE. > >> > >> I started with ZX81/Lambda/New Brain/Commodore. > >> > >> I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. > >> > >> The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. > >> > >> I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the missing "/1" postfix) here: > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf > >> > >> And I found the owners manual for the game here: > >> http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf > >> > >> But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip that I believe is used in the game. > >> > >> I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). > >> > >> I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined RAM/ROM. > >> > >> So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. > >> > >> I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. > >> > >> So I would like to hear all you guys if anyone of you could provide me more information on the specific chip and if all my guesses are right or wrong. > >> > >> Also if there is some way to dump the rom (without decapping the chip). > >> The end goal for me is to create an PPS-1 emulator (and possible running the game) > >> Regards > >> Benjamin > >> > > > > (revised) > > > > You have mail...I have archived a few PPS/4 manuals - thought I had sent > > them to Al, but perhaps not. Anyway I am sending you copies of the > > PPS4 1-chip micro PDFs - MM78 and MM76. I'll fling these off to Al (bitsavers) as well.... > > > > John :-#)# > > > > > > > > > > > > From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 16:43:09 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Benjamin_S=C3=B8lberg?=) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:43:09 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA182D1.32332.F9C613@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111021105025.GA18459@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111021122903.R76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA182D1.32332.F9C613@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48405B2E-1C17-423E-B82D-9E51D89A373D@gmail.com> Den 21/10/2011 kl. 23.33 skrev "Chuck Guzis" : > On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>> DOES, INDEED, give you 24 significant digts OF WHAT YOU FED IT. >> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: >>> What I'm getting at is that there's no widely understood datatype >>> that lets me say: pi = 3.1 to two significant decimal digits; > > Howzabout: > > 77 PI PIC 9V9 VALUE 3.1. > > --Chuck > That looks like cobol to me ? /Benjamin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 21 17:14:56 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:14:56 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/21/2011 3:35 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Brian Robinson > Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:32 PM > >> The PDP-11/x was perhaps the best selling, most powerful series of >> supercomputers in the world, going through over ten major revisions in it's >> lifecycle. A PDP-11 setup would cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of >> dollars. It often required a whole team of people dedicated to overseeing >> it's operation and managing it's moment-to-moment usage. They were used in >> everything from business, science and academic research applications to >> real-time control applications (PBX, traffic, industrial). > > This is a joke, right? > I could see the high price if embeded as controller in some lab equipment. > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 21 17:44:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:44:51 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> On Oct 21, 2011, at 6:14 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/21/2011 3:35 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Brian Robinson >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:32 PM >> >>> The PDP-11/x was perhaps the best selling, most powerful series of >>> supercomputers in the world, going through over ten major revisions in it's >>> lifecycle. A PDP-11 setup would cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of >>> dollars. It often required a whole team of people dedicated to overseeing >>> it's operation and managing it's moment-to-moment usage. They were used in >>> everything from business, science and academic research applications to >>> real-time control applications (PBX, traffic, industrial). >> >> This is a joke, right? >> > > I could see the high price if embeded as controller in some lab equipment. The pricing is the only part of that that's even close to being accurate. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From barythrin at yahoo.com Fri Oct 21 18:11:55 2011 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <4EA1D781.8070709@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Not that I'm complaining, I've been meaning to get on the list for years but for those of you more familiar with the app, is there a quick way to get an automated subject tag (cctalk for example) added to the subject line? I know some mailing list daemons allowed modification of that, wasn't sure if this one did. Thanks! - John From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 18:17:35 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:17:35 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7B3F647E-A99C-42C0-B5A1-46142F327DFB@gmail.com> On Oct 21, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> The PDP-11/x was perhaps the best selling, most powerful series of >>>> supercomputers in the world, going through over ten major revisions in it's >>>> lifecycle. A PDP-11 setup would cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of >>>> dollars. It often required a whole team of people dedicated to overseeing >>>> it's operation and managing it's moment-to-moment usage. They were used in >>>> everything from business, science and academic research applications to >>>> real-time control applications (PBX, traffic, industrial). >>> >>> This is a joke, right? >>> >> >> I could see the high price if embeded as controller in some lab equipment. > > The pricing is the only part of that that's even close to being accurate. I laughed out loud at the "supercomputers" part. Nice machines, but supercomputers they weren't, even when new. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 21 18:18:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:18:22 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> On 10/21/2011 07:11 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > Not that I'm complaining, I've been meaning to get on the list for years but for those of you more familiar with the app, is there a quick way to get an automated subject tag (cctalk for example) added to the subject line? > > I know some mailing list daemons allowed modification of that, wasn't sure if this one did. I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 21 18:23:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:23:32 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: <7B3F647E-A99C-42C0-B5A1-46142F327DFB@gmail.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> <7B3F647E-A99C-42C0-B5A1-46142F327DFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA1FEF4.2060104@neurotica.com> On 10/21/2011 07:17 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> The PDP-11/x was perhaps the best selling, most powerful series of >>>>> supercomputers in the world, going through over ten major revisions in it's >>>>> lifecycle. A PDP-11 setup would cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of >>>>> dollars. It often required a whole team of people dedicated to overseeing >>>>> it's operation and managing it's moment-to-moment usage. They were used in >>>>> everything from business, science and academic research applications to >>>>> real-time control applications (PBX, traffic, industrial). >>>> >>>> This is a joke, right? >>>> >>> >>> I could see the high price if embeded as controller in some lab equipment. >> >> The pricing is the only part of that that's even close to being accurate. > > I laughed out loud at the "supercomputers" part. Nice machines, but supercomputers they weren't, even when new. Nor were they ever intended to be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 18:28:10 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:28:10 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. I know of quite a few that don't (and they're quite popular lists). Lots of mail clients allow actions to be taken on various header lines (such as To: cctalk at classiccmp.org), but that's maybe not the best way to go about things. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 21 18:30:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:30:39 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> On 10/21/2011 03:38 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> My beef with some compiler writers is that they'll often do you a >> favor by silently rearranging expressions to make use of distributive >> or associative properties and that series that *used* converge neatly >> now no longer does. > > Which harkens back to the NEED to have any "optimization" include a way to > explicitly over-ride or lockout that aptimizing, when the programmer deems > it to be inappropriate. How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. We got to the moon in 1969...no telling whether or not we'll be able to get there again, with programmers being the way they are now. :-( Maybe we can hitch a ride with the Chinese. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 21 18:53:38 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> > > Which harkens back to the NEED to have any "optimization" include a way to > > explicitly over-ride or lockout that aptimizing, when the programmer deems > > it to be inappropriate. On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would > even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. "IF the users report enough bugs in the software, then we'll have somebody lookinto it." > We got to the moon in 1969...no telling whether or not we'll be able > to get there again, with programmers being the way they are now. :-( > Maybe we can hitch a ride with the Chinese. Hmmm. We won't resume out presence in space until we devise PRNDL controls and resume making PDP11/70 supercomputers. Besides, how much money would we make going to the moon? Why would anybody want to GO there? - you can see pictures of it in Wikipedia. Hmmmm. How much would a moon Hasselblad fetch on eBay? From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 21 18:54:25 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:54:25 -0500 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <704609A64A354405A566C3E148480026@osa.local> Dave wrote.... > I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any other > mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've suggested it a > few times over the years but nobody seems interested. Actually, I had that turned on for some time on the list, people complained bitterly and asked me to remove it, so I did. I believe the prevailing objection was that it made subject lines longer (scrolling some of the more "important" part of the subject out of view on some peoples mail clients), and in fact there were other ways to identify/classify it, particularly source addresses, headers, etc. J From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 21 19:11:39 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:11:39 -0400 Subject: Conversation/rhetoric/dialectic - Re: Getting further ot In-Reply-To: <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4EA20A3B.2050907@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/10/11 11:58 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Hope you're wearing your asbestos skivvies. >> >> [Snip] >> > At the risk if being naive, perhaps this list could use a bit of > inspiration - > to see if we could help the discussion to be more useful. > > There is a book written by Michael Kahn: "The TAO of Conversation". > > The primary point is that in an idea conversation, there can never be > an opinion which is right or wrong. Attempting to support an opinion > helps us to understand the opinion even if we totally disagree with that > opinion. We didn't need to wait for Mr Kahn. The Greeks were all over this one: "...we must be able to employ persuasion, just as strict reasoning can be employed, on opposite sides of a questio, not in order that we may in practice employ it in both ways (for we must not make people believe what is wrong), but in order that we may see clearly what the facts are, and that, if another man argues unfairly, we on our part may be able to confute him. No other of the arts draws opposite conclusions: dialectic and rhetoric alone do this. Both these arts draw opposite conclusions impartially. Nevertheless, the underlying facts do not lend themselves equally well to the contrary views. No; things that are true and things that are better are, by their nature, practically always easier to prove and easier to believe in." (Aristotle, "Rhetoric") --T > > While I agree with both of the opinions of Dave McGuire and Liam Proven, > it seems difficult to figure out exactly which is more useful because they > seem so angry at each other. > > We could use a bit of "Barn Raising". > > Jerome Fine > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 19:21:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:21:36 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <48405B2E-1C17-423E-B82D-9E51D89A373D@gmail.com> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <4EA182D1.32332.F9C613@cclist.sydex.com>, <48405B2E-1C17-423E-B82D-9E51D89A373D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA1AA20.23084.1935144@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2011 at 23:43, Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > >>>> DOES, INDEED, give you 24 significant digts OF WHAT YOU FED IT. > >> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > >>> What I'm getting at is that there's no widely understood datatype > >>> that lets me say: pi = 3.1 to two significant decimal digits; > > > > Howzabout: > > > > 77 PI PIC 9V9 VALUE 3.1. > > > > --Chuck > > > > That looks like cobol to me ? > /Benjamin Yup. Could just as easily be done in PL/I: DECLARE PI FIXED DECIMAL (2,1) INITIAL(3.2); --Chuck From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Oct 21 20:01:45 2011 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:01:45 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110220101.p9M11jjA014245@rickmurphy.net> At 07:28 PM 10/21/2011, David Riley wrote: >I know of quite a few that don't (and they're quite popular >lists). Lots of mail clients allow actions to be taken on various >header lines (such as To: cctalk at classiccmp.org), but that's maybe not >the best way to go about things. There's a standard (RFC) for mailing list headers. For example, the CCTALK list ALWAYS inserts List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" That's what you should use for filtering. If you can't, then it's time to find a functioning mail client. :) -Rick From dmabry at mich.com Fri Oct 21 20:07:53 2011 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:07:53 -0400 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA21769.9050004@mich.com> Tony Duell said the following on 10/21/2011 4:38 PM: >> I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone mentioned >> the HP15C-LE (Limited Edition) that HP just released? I bought one and > I tried one out at an HPCC meeting and I was very disapointed. After > eveyone telling me how great the 15C was, I was not impressed. > > Yes, it was a great machine for its time, and as such I regards the > origianl 15C as being a very interesting machine. But if you're going to > buy a calcualtor now (and thus put up with modern build quality, etc) > there are better choics (the 15C LE is about the same price as the 50G, > for exmaple). > >> it is quite true to its name. It actually runs the original microcode >> on an emulator, so the same bugs the original had are still there. > Along with some others that weren't in the original. The PSE bug, for > example (I've alredy been contcated by a fellow HPCC member to ask what > he was doing wrong when he hit that bug). > > The keyboard feel is not as good as the original either. And it's not as > well made from what I've seen. > > -tony > > As for the mechanical quality, I think the one I received is every bit as good as my original 15C's. The PSE bug is the only one I've heard of, and I think that's due to the speed of the underlying processor that is running the emulation. But I'm not an expert. The original diagnostics fail due to that emulator speed, but there is a new diagnostic that does function properly. Was the one that you tried at HPCC one of the prototypes? They are saying on the HPMUSEUM forum that there are some differences. The keyboard on mine feels very slightly different than my original 15C's but I wouldn't say one was necessarily better. Just different. They both are great. From spc at conman.org Fri Oct 21 22:11:56 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:11:56 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111022031156.GB11946@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > On 10/21/2011 07:11 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > >Not that I'm complaining, I've been meaning to get on the list for years > >but for those of you more familiar with the app, is there a quick way to > >get an automated subject tag (cctalk for example) added to the subject > >line? > > > >I know some mailing list daemons allowed modification of that, wasn't sure > >if this one did. > > I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any > other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've > suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. Maybe because this mailing list has the standard headers for a mailing list: List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , and your better email clients can use those for filtering purposes. -spc (In fact, I haven't seen a mailing list in years that doesn't have those headers ...) From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 21 22:53:54 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:53:54 -0700 Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA21769.9050004@mich.com> References: <4EA21769.9050004@mich.com> Message-ID: <4EA23E52.8040206@brouhaha.com> Dave Mabry wrote: > As for the mechanical quality, I think the one I received is > every bit as good as my original 15C's. The PSE bug is the > only one I've heard of, and I think that's due to the speed > of the underlying processor that is running the emulation. No, it's because the emulation of some of the display features is done wrong. Nothing to do with the speed of the emulation, though there may still be one more bug due to that. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Oct 21 23:45:28 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:45:28 -0500 Subject: Retro Computing Roundtable podcast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA24A68.1050006@tx.rr.com> On 10/18/2011 12:05 PM, David Greelish wrote: > A new show is posted! A whopping two-parter at 55 minutes each, with Blake > Patterson as our guest from bytecellar.com / toucharcade.com > > Retro Computing Roundtable podcast, show 17 > > Get it through iTunes or listen online @ http://bit.ly/pAJWKs or download it > directly @ https://public.me.com/dgreelish > > Best, > > David Greelish > President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society > That's super, thanks for posting that. If I may ask, what is the best way of knowing when part 2, etc. are available? Should I just bookmark the site and check it periodically, or is there a better way? -- Later, Charlie C. In God We Trust! From pinball at telus.net Fri Oct 21 15:13:45 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:13:45 -0700 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EA14EB9.23190.2E48E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA14EB9.23190.2E48E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA1D279.5040305@telus.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wasn't the PPS4 or PPS8 used in a number of arcade games back when? > > One or the other was also used in the Diablo dot-matrix printer. I > remember seeing the odd-looking packages when I had one open. > > --Chuck > > > > PPS4 was used in both Gottlieb pinballs (System 1) and also Recel (Europe) pinballs. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 21 21:26:46 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone know what causes this? So far -- touch wood -- > I've not seen > it in any of my machines. And others have in the same > models. What am I > doing right? keeping them dry. It's elementary my dear Watson. Dec monitors, in my humble experience, are especially prone. Maybe the plexiglass is further away from the face of the tube, and consequently allows more water and fungi to get in. Don't know. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 21 22:19:21 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: yet still looking for a color Rainbow monitor was RE: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319253561.46881.YahooMailClassic@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Ron reminded me. I still don't have one, nor the video card :( thanks for the advice though Ron From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 22 00:53:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:53:47 -0700 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EA1D279.5040305@telus.net> References: , <4EA14EB9.23190.2E48E0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA1D279.5040305@telus.net> Message-ID: <4EA1F7FB.27500.2C37262@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2011 at 13:13, John Robertson wrote: > PPS4 was used in both Gottlieb pinballs (System 1) and also Recel > (Europe) pinballs. Thank you for the memory jog! All I could remember is that the maker's name started with "G". --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 01:49:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 02:49:21 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <20111022031156.GB11946@brevard.conman.org> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <20111022031156.GB11946@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <88F0F007-C987-4084-A0AB-4BBA1DB46C50@neurotica.com> On Oct 21, 2011, at 11:11 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: >> On 10/21/2011 07:11 PM, Sam Onella wrote: >>> Not that I'm complaining, I've been meaning to get on the list for years >>> but for those of you more familiar with the app, is there a quick way to >>> get an automated subject tag (cctalk for example) added to the subject >>> line? >>> >>> I know some mailing list daemons allowed modification of that, wasn't sure >>> if this one did. >> >> I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any >> other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've >> suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. > > Maybe because this mailing list has the standard headers for a mailing > list: ... Right, I never suggested that this list didn't have them. Every list has them, even the old Majordomo program (remember those days?) provided those headers. > and your better email clients can use those for filtering purposes. Indeed. Don't *all* mail clients support that? I don't know of any that don't. However, subject tagging isn't for automatic sorting purposes. As you correctly pointed out, there are better ways to do that. These two things have nothing to do with each other, and having one doesn't obviate the need or lessen the desire for the other. > -spc (In fact, I haven't seen a mailing list in years that doesn't have > those headers ...) I've seen maybe one other list in decades that didn't provide subject tags. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 01:51:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 02:51:49 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <704609A64A354405A566C3E148480026@osa.local> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <704609A64A354405A566C3E148480026@osa.local> Message-ID: <27C335A9-5C58-401E-A17C-E33575DD2304@neurotica.com> On Oct 21, 2011, at 7:54 PM, "Jay West" wrote: > Dave wrote.... >> I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. > > Actually, I had that turned on for some time on the list, people complained bitterly and asked me to remove it, so I did. I believe the prevailing objection was that it made subject lines longer (scrolling some of the more "important" part of the subject out of view on some peoples mail clients), and in fact there were other ways to identify/classify it, particularly source addresses, headers, etc. I'm quite surprised to hear this. Have those guys just never seen any other mailing lists? That is very much the norm, and has been for a really long time. Weird. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 01:54:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 02:54:43 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <201110220101.p9M11jjA014245@rickmurphy.net> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <201110220101.p9M11jjA014245@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:01 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 07:28 PM 10/21/2011, David Riley wrote: >> I know of quite a few that don't (and they're quite popular lists). Lots of mail clients allow actions to be taken on various header lines (such as To: cctalk at classiccmp.org), but that's maybe not the best way to go about things. > > There's a standard (RFC) for mailing list headers. For example, the CCTALK list ALWAYS inserts > > List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > That's what you should use for filtering. If you can't, then it's time to find a functioning mail client. :) My mail client(s) work just fine, thanks, and I've been running bug mailing lists for two decades now, I di know how to sort mail. Everyone gas jumped to the conclusion that I want subject tagging for automated sorting purposes, which is not the case. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 02:05:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 03:05:01 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <201110220101.p9M11jjA014245@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2011, at 2:54 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:01 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: >> At 07:28 PM 10/21/2011, David Riley wrote: >>> I know of quite a few that don't (and they're quite popular lists). Lots of mail clients allow actions to be taken on various header lines (such as To: cctalk at classiccmp.org), but that's maybe not the best way to go about things. >> >> There's a standard (RFC) for mailing list headers. For example, the CCTALK list ALWAYS inserts >> >> List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> That's what you should use for filtering. If you can't, then it's time to find a functioning mail client. :) > > My mail client(s) work just fine, thanks, and I've been running bug mailing lists for two decades now, I di know how to sort mail. Everyone gas jumped to the conclusion that I want subject tagging for automated sorting purposes, which is not the case. s/bug/big, s/di/do Grr, touch screens. Anyway, I'm not losing sleep over it, my preference isn't a hugely strong one, but it's definitely unusual to not have those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 03:36:59 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:36:59 +0200 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> On 22 Oct 2011, at 1:18 , Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. Before long, subject lines will change into a mess of "[cctalk]Re:[cctalk]RE:[cctalk]Re:[cctalk] strings? .tsooJ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 21 22:25:36 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: help me get off this list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319253936.60860.YahooMailClassic@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'd joyfully agree to undertake the task. But I'm not sure I'm the one that should be pressed into duty for this particular occasion... I do apologize for the comment, it does seem rather cold when echoed (but I'm laughing as I type this). Please forgive me for not being as graphically oriented as maybe I should. Who'd a thunk I'd check the FAQ file rather then utilize what was staring at me. But maybe, just maybe, it was meant to be :) --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Jay West wrote: > From: Jay West > Subject: Re: help me get off this list > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 8:58 AM > Chris M wrote.... > > Thanks. But I would have thought that the bloomin' FAQ > file/page would have been updated since 1997!!! > Sounds like you're volunteering. > > > I do not see the reason to criticize someone for > little or no reason. And...who knew???...you're not forced > to read anyone's posts. Perhaps that should be entered into > the near to be updated FAQ file. > See above. > > It's not the wild-west here, nor does "anything go". If it > gets out of hand, I - or other list members - will offer a > nudge in the right direction. > > J > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 04:39:24 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:39:24 +0100 Subject: Conversation/rhetoric/dialectic - Re: Getting further ot In-Reply-To: <4EA20A3B.2050907@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> <4EA20A3B.2050907@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 1:11 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 20/10/11 11:58 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> ?>Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> Hope you're wearing your asbestos skivvies. >>> >>> [Snip] >>> >> At the risk if being naive, perhaps this list could use a bit of >> inspiration - >> to see if we could help the discussion to be more useful. >> >> There is a book written by Michael Kahn: "The TAO of Conversation". >> >> The primary point is that in an idea conversation, there can never be >> an opinion which is right or wrong. Attempting to support an opinion >> helps us to understand the opinion even if we totally disagree with that >> opinion. > > We didn't need to wait for Mr Kahn. The Greeks were all over this one: > > ?"...we must be able to employ persuasion, just as strict reasoning can be > employed, on opposite sides of a questio, not in order that we may in > practice employ it in both ways (for we must not make people believe what is > wrong), but in order that we may see clearly what the facts are, and that, > if another man argues unfairly, we on our part may be able to confute him. > No other of the arts draws opposite conclusions: dialectic and rhetoric > alone do this. Both these arts draw opposite conclusions impartially. > Nevertheless, the underlying facts do not lend themselves equally well to > the contrary views. No; things that are true and things that are better are, > by their nature, practically always easier to prove and easier to believe > in." > > ?(Aristotle, "Rhetoric") > > --T > >> >> While I agree with both of the opinions of Dave McGuire and Liam Proven, >> it seems difficult to figure out exactly which is more useful because they >> seem so angry at each other. >> >> We could use a bit of "Barn Raising". >> >> Jerome Fine >> > > Over here we have a saying "Stop arguing you two or I will bash your heads together!" Dave Caroline From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 06:54:19 2011 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 04:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) Message-ID: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi, I discovered some more QBUS PDP 11 machines in an old storage unit I'm emptying. These machines are the rack mount style QBUS PDP 11's, and appear to be intact, although their disk drives have been removed. They all have CPU and memory. These are collection only from Yorkshire - but free of charge. I have 3 machines available and possibly some spare cards. These need to be collected next week unfortunately. Any interest email me directly. Thanks Ian. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 22 07:22:47 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:22:47 +0100 Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <056601cc90b5$506b2060$f1416120$@ntlworld.com> Hello Ian, I have always wanted one of these so happy to take one. I could come tomorrow morning, nice and early. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of silvercreekvalley > Sent: 22 October 2011 12:54 > To: cctalk > Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) > > Hi, > > I discovered some more QBUS PDP 11 machines in an old storage unit I'm > emptying. > > These machines are the rack mount style QBUS PDP 11's, and appear to be > intact, although their disk drives have been removed. > > They all have CPU and memory. > > These are collection only from Yorkshire - but free of charge. I have 3 > machines available and possibly some spare cards. > > These need to be collected next week unfortunately. Any interest email me > directly. > > > Thanks > > Ian. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 22 09:13:26 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:13:26 -0700 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EA1F7FB.27500.2C37262@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EA14EB9.23190.2E48E0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA1D279.5040305@telus.net>,<4EA1F7FB.27500.2C37262@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I have a Gottlieb Gene in my garage right now. It needs a couple lamp drivers replaced but otherwise in fine shape. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:53:47 -0700 > Subject: Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted > > On 21 Oct 2011 at 13:13, John Robertson wrote: > > > PPS4 was used in both Gottlieb pinballs (System 1) and also Recel > > (Europe) pinballs. > > Thank you for the memory jog! All I could remember is that the > maker's name started with "G". > > --Chuck > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 22 10:38:12 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 22 Oct 2011, at 1:18 , Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. > > Before long, subject lines will change into a mess of "[cctalk]Re:[cctalk]RE:[cctalk]Re:[cctalk] strings? > That's highly unlikely. I've _never_ seen that happen with the various lists I'm on (including the ones I run) that subject tag. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 10:42:46 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:42:46 -0500 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <27C335A9-5C58-401E-A17C-E33575DD2304@neurotica.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <704609A64A354405A566C3E148480026@osa.local> <27C335A9-5C58-401E-A17C-E33575DD2304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA2E476.1010508@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 21, 2011, at 7:54 PM, "Jay West" wrote: >> Dave wrote.... >>> I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any >>> other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've >>> suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. >>> >> Actually, I had that turned on for some time on the list, people >> complained bitterly and asked me to remove it, so I did. I believe the >> prevailing objection was that it made subject lines longer (scrolling >> some of the more "important" part of the subject out of view on some >> peoples mail clients), and in fact there were other ways to >> identify/classify it, particularly source addresses, headers, etc. > > I'm quite surprised to hear this. Have those guys just never seen any > other mailing lists? That is very much the norm, and has been for a > really long time. I'm one of "those guys". It wasn't the norm when classiccmp first started - I don't think it started to become common until the late 90s, in that brief period before mail clients generally had useful filtering abilities (or, indeed, the concept of different folders even) Personally, I filter different lists according to header data - so there's no need for subject-tagging and it just wastes up space (I've wondered if there's a way to set up Thunderbird so that it removes it for the lists I'm on that *do* have it, but I've never got the tuits together to look into it) Be thankful that the default reply-to isn't to the individual rather than the list, unlike one mailing list that I'm on ;-) cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 11:44:02 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:44:02 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC Message-ID: I've bought a copy of LocoScript 4 (or so) to run on my PCW9512+. However, I'd also like to get it running under the Joyce emulator on my PC. How might I read a PCW floppy into a PC disk image? It's a 3.5" 720 DD disk. My PC does have a 3?" drive and runs Windows 7/64 and Ubuntu 11.10/64. I possibly have an ancient copy of 22copy somewhere, but it runs under DOS which at the mo' my PC is not configured to boot... :( -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 11:53:31 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:53:31 -0500 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> Chris M wrote: > > --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Does anyone know what causes this? So far -- touch wood -- >> I've not seen >> it in any of my machines. And others have in the same >> models. What am I >> doing right? > > keeping them dry. It's elementary my dear Watson. I think at least one list member had problems even though the screens were stored in a dry environment. I'm not sure that anyone's ever got to the bottom of why it happens to some screens and not others :-( > Dec monitors, in my humble experience, are especially prone. It's very much an experience thing for sure - I've seen it mostly on HP (and a Digico screen which had gone particularly rotten). Maybe it's traceable to a particular set of CRT manufacturers, or specific plants, or a specific formulation of bonding used at a particular plant, but I don't know if we'll ever find out for sure! For the HP 250 I used some resistance wire connected to a 12V PSU to cut through the bonding and remove the faceplate. As that was just a static exhibit machine I just reattached the faceplate by sealing around the edges though - I'm not sure what best practice is to 'properly' re-seal the entire plate (I'd be particularly worried about getting air bubbles trapped in there!) cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 11:53:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:53:26 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <367C1693-22BB-40A7-8616-15D6E86E945F@neurotica.com> On Oct 22, 2011, at 4:36 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 22 Oct 2011, at 1:18 , Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. > > Before long, subject lines will change into a mess of "[cctalk]Re:[cctalk]RE:[cctalk]Re:[cctalk] strings? Yes, if people don't trim them, like every other list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 11:55:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:55:34 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7C11DFD5-9FFA-432A-BD78-450B4FDF93D7@neurotica.com> On Oct 22, 2011, at 11:38 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Joost van de Griek wrote: > >> On 22 Oct 2011, at 1:18 , Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. >> >> Before long, subject lines will change into a mess of "[cctalk]Re:[cctalk]RE:[cctalk]Re:[cctalk] strings? >> > That's highly unlikely. I've _never_ seen that happen with the various lists I'm on (including the ones I run) that subject tag. I've seen it happen a few times, but not often. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 22 12:13:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:13:32 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> References: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA2974C.11824.5F4AE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Oct 2011 at 11:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > For the HP 250 I used some resistance wire connected to a 12V PSU to > cut through the bonding and remove the faceplate. As that was just a > static exhibit machine I just reattached the faceplate by sealing > around the edges though - I'm not sure what best practice is to > 'properly' re-seal the entire plate (I'd be particularly worried about > getting air bubbles trapped in there!) If one wanted real implosion protection, it might be worth investigating some of the mylar window films made for the purpose of containing fragments: http://windowfilmdepot.com/protection.htm You could then place the old plastic mask over the mylar film without any sort of adhesive in the middle--or not--and still be protected. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 13:15:34 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:15:34 -0500 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EA2974C.11824.5F4AE5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> <4EA2974C.11824.5F4AE5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA30846.5050400@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Oct 2011 at 11:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> For the HP 250 I used some resistance wire connected to a 12V PSU to >> cut through the bonding and remove the faceplate. As that was just a >> static exhibit machine I just reattached the faceplate by sealing >> around the edges though - I'm not sure what best practice is to >> 'properly' re-seal the entire plate (I'd be particularly worried about >> getting air bubbles trapped in there!) > > If one wanted real implosion protection, it might be worth > investigating some of the mylar window films made for the purpose of > containing fragments: > > http://windowfilmdepot.com/protection.htm That's an interesting idea! I wonder how critical it is to fill the gap between the CRT and faceplate with something, though? For the HP 250 it was a non-functional display, but on a working screen will there be problems if there's any air trapped in there (blooming or reflections off the back of the faceplate, for example) My memory of the HP 250's screen is that the faceplate didn't precisely follow the contours of the CRT face - the bonding compound varied in thickness to accommodate this (about 1mm around the CRT face's center and 4mm at the edges). I don't know how the faceplates are/were normally stuck in place at assembly - did they apply bonding compound to the front of the CRT and then press the plate into it, or did they suspend the plate in front of the CRT, seal around the edges, then pour/inject the bonding compound into the resulting gap? cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 22 13:18:31 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [cctalk] cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111022111701.I10772@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Joost van de Griek wrote: > Before long, subject lines will change into a mess of > "[cctalk]Re:[cctalk]RE:[cctalk]Re:[cctalk] strings? Surely the mail program could be configured to not add it if it is already present anywhere within the subject? From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 13:38:24 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 14:38:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thinking of selling collection Message-ID: All, I think the time has finally come to narrow down the scope of my collection for the sake of space, marital bliss and sanity. I need to shed a healthy assortment of Unix workstations, most in operational form. I have printed docs for some and DVDs full of software for all. Not looking to get wealthy, but I would like some modicum of reimbursement given the condition and completeness. I will not ship any of this - you must come to Burlington, VT and take it away (or arrange to have that done). Would love to have the entire collection go to one person (and will adjust fiduciary expectations accordingly). It will take some effort to pull together a detailed list, but here's a rough rundown to guage interest: IBM RS/6000 43p - Complete set of AIX 4.3 media - Has 100Base ethernet adapter installed HP Visualize B2000 - Complete set of HPUX 11i distribution media - Complete set C/C++ development tools SGI Iris Indigo R3000 - Basic machine - no 3d graphics SGI Iris Indigo R4400 - Every option known to Westerm Man, including 3d graphics (I have a couple of Iris Indigo keyboards and mice. These are not common items) SGI Indigo 2 (Teal) R4400 CPU SGI Indigo 2 (Purple) 768MB Memory, Uber hi-end graphics board, 100Base ethernet. I _think_ it's an R8000 (IP26). Sun Ultra 5 Sun Ultra 2 Sun Ultra 60 - Very tricked-out machine with 2x 450 Mhz. SPARC cpu and lotsa memory. Has U160 SCSI controller. (I have Sun keyboards and mice a-plenty) (I also have a gorgeous, early Sparc 2 with a box of S-Bus cards, but I'm planning to hang on to it) --> Lots and lots of Solaris distros on CD and DVD. 2x DEC Alpha Multia. I know one is operational. Slower than death warmed over, but very high "cute" factor. DEC Alpha PC64 w/ 256MB of memory in PC case. Operational system DEC Alpha PC164 motherboard (maybe 2..) DEC Alpha UP2000+ system w/ 2x 700Mhz. 2MB cache 21264 - This is a beast. Huge power supply, Adaptec 29360 controller, several disks. - Was my pride and joy until it went flakey. Might be good for parts or a demonstration of poorly-characterized electromigration on ageing VLSI parts. --> I have several complete sets of install media for Digital Unix 4.x through Tru64 5.something. License keys for everything. - I have 2GB of memory for it, but the machine won't POST with it installed. DEC 5000 MIPS-based workstation (bare system, but works last I knew) DEC VAXStation 3100 - Condition unknown - Have a box of VMS 5.x docs, Ultrix CD, Full set of VMS media. Also: Boxes full of spare boards and widgets for many of the above. Full 5-ft. Shelf of documentation on the Alphas I'm not exaggerating when I say this will fill a van :-) Please feel free to drop e-mail with additional questions and/or interest. I really would hate for this stuff to end up on a barge to China for gold reclamation... Steve -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 22 13:55:17 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <367C1693-22BB-40A7-8616-15D6E86E945F@neurotica.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> <367C1693-22BB-40A7-8616-15D6E86E945F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111022115249.R10772@shell.lmi.net> > > Before long, subject lines will change into a mess of On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, if people don't trim them, like every other list. ALMOST everybody on this list is responsible about trimming the message body. But our subject lines tend to remain unchanged through a dozen topic changes. Although, admittedly, this subject line no longer mentions Ritchie nor Jobs. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 14:00:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 15:00:12 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <4EA2E476.1010508@gmail.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <704609A64A354405A566C3E148480026@osa.local> <27C335A9-5C58-401E-A17C-E33575DD2304@neurotica.com> <4EA2E476.1010508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA312BC.7090500@neurotica.com> On 10/22/2011 11:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> I don't know of any that don't allow this, and I don't know of any >>>> other mailing lists which don't have that subject line tag. I've >>>> suggested it a few times over the years but nobody seems interested. >>>> >>> Actually, I had that turned on for some time on the list, people >>> complained bitterly and asked me to remove it, so I did. I believe the >>> prevailing objection was that it made subject lines longer (scrolling >>> some of the more "important" part of the subject out of view on some >>> peoples mail clients), and in fact there were other ways to >>> identify/classify it, particularly source addresses, headers, etc. >> >> I'm quite surprised to hear this. Have those guys just never seen any >> other mailing lists? That is very much the norm, and has been for a >> really long time. > > I'm one of "those guys". It wasn't the norm when classiccmp first > started - I don't think it started to become common until the late 90s, > in that brief period before mail clients generally had useful filtering > abilities (or, indeed, the concept of different folders even) > > Personally, I filter different lists according to header data - so > there's no need for subject-tagging and it just wastes up space I do not share that opinion. ;) As I've said, I don't want subject tagging for automatic sorting of email. That is absolutely the wrong way to do it, and as such, I'd never dream of doing it that way. (you know how anal I am! ;) It is my personal preference to NOT have my inbound mail pre-sorted into folders. I prefer to do it this way because, when trying it for the first time many years ago (using the ELM mailer and procmail) I found that I just never got around to checking those other folders. I want all of my inbound mail in my main mail spool, and seeing "[cctalk]" (for example) in there allows me to cruise through my new mail and correctly frame each message in the right mental context. I get a lot of personal mail with subject lines containing stuff like "help with PDP-11", and I've found that I can just roll along replying as if I were sending something to a list, and two paragraphs later notice that it was actually a personal message that I may have replied to differently for whatever reason. And again, I get along just fine without it most of the time, it's not something that I feel really strongly about, but I do prefer it that way and it is (based on the other lists I'm on) pretty unusual not to have it. > (I've > wondered if there's a way to set up Thunderbird so that it removes it > for the lists I'm on that *do* have it, but I've never got the tuits > together to look into it) There's probably an extension, or at least there should be. That'd be pretty handy. Such an extension would likely be able to be written to *add* them as well, to suit user preference. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 14:02:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 15:02:27 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <20111022115249.R10772@shell.lmi.net> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <72DBF1DF-E2F8-40FB-AFEF-91A31622423E@gmail.com> <367C1693-22BB-40A7-8616-15D6E86E945F@neurotica.com> <20111022115249.R10772@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA31343.40001@neurotica.com> On 10/22/2011 02:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Before long, subject lines will change into a mess of > On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Yes, if people don't trim them, like every other list. > > ALMOST everybody on this list is responsible about trimming the message > body. But our subject lines tend to remain unchanged through a dozen > topic changes. Yes. I'm pretty bad about that sometimes myself, though I do try to remember. I think it's easy to get caught up in a conversation and just end up ignoring the subject line. > Although, admittedly, this subject line no longer mentions > Ritchie nor Jobs. ...which is a miracle! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 14:10:16 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 21:10:16 +0200 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <808FBC4A-B503-4099-8293-7F70C716D10A@gmail.com> > > Not that I know anything about this microcontroller or the game... >> >> I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week = >> 14. >> >> The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I = >> guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 = >> cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. >> >> I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the = >> missing "/1" postfix) here: >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf > > Have you traced out enough of the scheamtic of the game to see if this > could possibly be the device in question. Do things like the power pins, > clock oscillator, etc, all match up? > >> >> And I found the owners manual for the game here: >> = >> http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf= >> >> >> But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip = >> that I believe is used in the game. >> >> I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and = >> the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). > > It might be /2 (chips) and /1 (chip) :-) > >> >> I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a = >> minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined = >> RAM/ROM. >> >> So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a = >> PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal = >> combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. >> >> I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a = >> "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. > > I would be very suprised. EAROM did exist in 1979 (I think) but it was > expensive and small capacity, It would not make sense to use it for the > firmware store of a mcirocontroller, and certainly not in a commerical > product like this. > > The ROM _might_ been EPROM, but I doubt that too. Msot likely it is > masked ROM, and there bay be no way to (officially) read it out. There > may be a test mode that allows you to get access to the ROM, whether > that's docuemtned or not I don't know. > > -tony > Hello Tony I just found, by reading the interview with the game developer, that the game uses a custom version of a calculator chip and not directly the PPS-4/1. The PPS-4 seems to be a more general purpose. About tracing the game doesn't bring much as the game is just a single chip and a handful of leds. Super super simple circuit. As an afterthought I think you are right regarding the EAROM. It must be a masked ROM, so all this doesn't give me many chances. Sad, coz I really looked forward to recreating the game. On a side note: I looked in to the data sheets to the PPS-4/1 that John Robertson was kind enough to dig out of his digital hideout. The PPS-4 was actually a bit more 'sophisticated' than I first thought. One other thing that was unexpected was that they are powered eg. 0 and negative 9V. I wonder why it's like that... Regards Benjamin From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 22 14:15:47 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:15:47 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> On 22/10/11 17:44, Liam Proven wrote: > How might I read a PCW floppy into a PC disk image? It's a 3.5" 720 DD > disk. My PC does have a 3?" drive and runs Windows 7/64 and Ubuntu > 11.10/64. Are you sure about that? I was under the impression the PCW9512 used a 3-inch drive... EME-231 or something like that. You probably won't be able to do this under Win7; it doesn't allow low-level access to the disc controller. Similar story for Linux, unless you feel like writing a driver (or patching the existing driver) to do so. In my humble opinion you're probably best off using something along the lines of a DiscFerret or Catweasel and then decoding it with cwfloppy, cw2dmk or similar. ... Or you could boot off a DOS floppy which loads RAMDRIVE, then use 22Disk from the RAM drive. Save the image to a 1.4MB floppy, and job done. I seem to recall FreeDOS having USB Mass Storage drivers available -- if that's the case, you could even use a USB thumbdrive. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 14:26:59 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:26:59 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> References: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 22 October 2011 20:15, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 22/10/11 17:44, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> How might I read a PCW floppy into a PC disk image? It's a 3.5" 720 DD >> disk. My PC does have a 3?" drive and runs Windows 7/64 and Ubuntu >> 11.10/64. > > Are you sure about that? I was under the impression the PCW9512 used a > 3-inch drive... EME-231 or something like that. The PCW8256 and 9512 have 3" drives. The 9512+ has a 3.5" drive. > You probably won't be able to do this under Win7; it doesn't allow low-level > access to the disc controller. Similar story for Linux, unless you feel like > writing a driver (or patching the existing driver) to do so. Oy oy! That bad? 8?( > In my humble opinion you're probably best off using something along the > lines of a DiscFerret or Catweasel and then decoding it with cwfloppy, > cw2dmk or similar. I don't have the money for additional hardware to accomplish this, sadly. > ... Or you could boot off a DOS floppy which loads RAMDRIVE, then use 22Disk > from the RAM drive. Save the image to a 1.4MB floppy, and job done. I seem > to recall FreeDOS having USB Mass Storage drivers available -- if that's the > case, you could even use a USB thumbdrive. Blimey. If DOS is the only way, then I can put DOS back on. I think it has actually got a 32MB FAT16 partition with the DOS bit of Win98SE on it, but it's no longer active - Win7 ate the bootsector. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Oct 22 14:39:13 2011 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:39:13 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA31BE1.3010303@mac.com> On 10/22/2011 17:44, Liam Proven wrote: > I've bought a copy of LocoScript 4 (or so) to run on my PCW9512+. > However, I'd also like to get it running under the Joyce emulator on > my PC. > Hi Liam.. If you use the Joyce emulator you should be able to read disks directly and make an image of the disk that can be used in the emulator. Start emulator F9 - F2 - Disc mangement - Add a disk image... Roger From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 13:47:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:47:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 21, 11 06:44:51 pm Message-ID: > > On Oct 21, 2011, at 6:14 PM, ben wrote: > > On 10/21/2011 3:35 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> From: Brian Robinson > >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:32 PM > >> > >>> The PDP-11/x was perhaps the best selling, most powerful series of > >>> supercomputers in the world, going through over ten major revisions in it's > >>> lifecycle. A PDP-11 setup would cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of > >>> dollars. It often required a whole team of people dedicated to overseeing > >>> it's operation and managing it's moment-to-moment usage. They were used in > >>> everything from business, science and academic research applications to > >>> real-time control applications (PBX, traffic, industrial). > >> > >> This is a joke, right? > >> > > > > I could see the high price if embeded as controller in some lab equipment. > > The pricing is the only part of that that's even close to being accurate. The list of applications is not too far from the truth is it? I've come across PDP11s being used for business applications (databases, stocl control), science/academic(obviously) and real time control. But no way is a PDP11 (of any time) a supercomputer, and nor was it designed to be. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 13:52:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:52:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 21, 11 07:30:39 pm Message-ID: > > Which harkens back to the NEED to have any "optimization" include a way to > > explicitly over-ride or lockout that aptimizing, when the programmer deems > > it to be inappropriate. > > How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would > even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. Oh, approximately the same number as the number of 'glue FPGAs and Microcontrollers together' hardware 'designers' who can calcualtr LED current limiting reissotrs, bias a transistor properly, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 13:57:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:57:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp calculators In-Reply-To: <4EA21769.9050004@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Oct 21, 11 09:07:53 pm Message-ID: [15C LE etc] > As for the mechanical quality, I think the one I received is every bit > as good as my original 15C's. The PSE bug is the only one I've heard I beleive the 15C LE is similar in build to the latest 12C, isn;t it. Althogh the latest 12Cs I've been inside have an epoxy-capped direct-on-board IC, whereas the pictures of the 15CLE show it with a PQFP soldered to the PCB. But the keybords are similar, and IMHO not as good as the originail one. It certainly felt worse than my original 16C that I had with me. Incidnetlaly, do all modern 12Cs have direct-on-board ICs? If so, why was the 15C LE built differently? Or is it that one factory making 12Cs makes htem with direct-on-board ICs, the other factory with PQFPs? > Was the one that you tried at HPCC one of the prototypes? They are I'm not suppsoed to have seen the prototype :-). Seriously, I've seen both. They don't seem that different on the outside. > saying on the HPMUSEUM forum that there are some differences. I believe the firmware was changed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 14:01:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:01:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: yet still looking for a color Rainbow monitor was RE: HP screen In-Reply-To: <1319253561.46881.YahooMailClassic@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 21, 11 08:19:21 pm Message-ID: > > Ron reminded me. I still don't have one, nor the video card :( The colour monitor is essentially useless without the video board, all you get is green text (not much of a change from some versions of the VR201). You cna use the video board with the VR201 mono monitor to add grpahics (in 16 intensity levels IIRC). So th board is the thing to find first. Once you've done that, you cna use any sync-on-green TV-rate RGB analogue monitor, it's jsut a matter of wiring the cable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 14:06:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:06:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conversation/rhetoric/dialectic - Re: Getting further ot In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Oct 22, 11 10:39:24 am Message-ID: > Over here we have a saying "Stop arguing you two or I will bash your > heads together!" On this list, isn't it 'Stop arguing you two, or I'll crash your heads right into the platter' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 14:44:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:44:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EA30846.5050400@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 22, 11 01:15:34 pm Message-ID: > > If one wanted real implosion protection, it might be worth > > investigating some of the mylar window films made for the purpose of > > containing fragments: > > > > http://windowfilmdepot.com/protection.htm > > That's an interesting idea! Indeed it is. I wonder if a CRT with the frotn glass removed, but covered with this material would be safe? > > I wonder how critical it is to fill the gap between the CRT and faceplate > with something, though? For the HP 250 it was a non-functional display, but > on a working screen will there be problems if there's any air trapped in > there (blooming or reflections off the back of the faceplate, for example) There might be slight reflections, but no worse than with the separate safety glass used in 1950's TV sets. In the case of your HP250, even thoguh you are not running it it could still be an implosion risk without the correctl-bonded faceplate. > I don't know how the faceplates are/were normally stuck in place at > assembly - did they apply bonding compound to the front of the CRT and then > press the plate into it, or did they suspend the plate in front of the CRT, > seal around the edges, then pour/inject the bonding compound into the > resulting gap? ALmost certialy they applied the bonding stuff to one of the parts (which one I can't say) and then put them together. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 14:50:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:50:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <808FBC4A-B503-4099-8293-7F70C716D10A@gmail.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=" at Oct 22, 11 09:10:16 pm Message-ID: > Hello Tony > > I just found, by reading the interview with the game developer, that > the game uses a custom version of a calculator chip and not directly the THat clacualtor chip copuld still be similar in concept to a microcontroller. I know more about dekstop calcualtors than single-chip ones (since the former are easier to investigate), but it wasn't uncommon for a calculator to be essentialyl a general-purpose CPU running the right firmware. > PPS-4/1. The PPS-4 seems to be a more general purpose. About tracing the > game doesn't bring much as the game is just a single chip and a handful > of leds. Super super simple circuit. Sure, that's what I expected. The point is that you can sometimes indentify an IC by the pins used for power, groubdm the clock circuit (crystal, LC tank cirucit, whatever)m, the reset RC circuit (if there is one) and so on. THose don't nonrmally depeend on the programming of the mask ROM. > On a side note: I looked in to the data sheets to the PPS-4/1 that John Robertson was kind enough to dig out of his digital hideout. The PPS-4 was actually a bit more 'sophisticated' than I first thought. One other thing that was unexpected was that the y are powered eg. 0 and negative 9V. I wonder why it's like that... Sounds as though it might be PMOS logic, which tends to use a -ve supply voltage -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 14:54:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 15:54:58 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA31F92.6080503@neurotica.com> On 10/22/2011 02:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Which harkens back to the NEED to have any "optimization" include a way to >>> explicitly over-ride or lockout that aptimizing, when the programmer deems >>> it to be inappropriate. >> >> How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would >> even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. > > Oh, approximately the same number as the number of 'glue FPGAs and > Microcontrollers together' hardware 'designers' who can calcualtr LED > current limiting reissotrs, bias a transistor properly, etc. Hmm, I dunno if I can agree with that. It does take quite a bit of expertise to handle FPGAs and microcontrollers. (note I'm not talking about "slap an Arduino into a project and call it done" here) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 14:54:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:54:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 22, 11 08:15:47 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/10/11 17:44, Liam Proven wrote: > > How might I read a PCW floppy into a PC disk image? It's a 3.5" 720 DD > > disk. My PC does have a 3=BD" drive and runs Windows 7/64 and Ubuntu > > 11.10/64. > > Are you sure about that? I was under the impression the PCW9512 used a=20 > 3-inch drive... EME-231 or something like that. > > You probably won't be able to do this under Win7; it doesn't allow=20 > low-level access to the disc controller. Similar story for Linux, unless=20 > you feel like writing a driver (or patching the existing driver) to do so. Isn;t that what the FDRAWCMD ioctl() is for under linux? IS the PC floppy drive conencted to a controller on the processor bus (e.g. it's got a 34 way ribbon cabvle goign to a connector on the motherboard), or is it a USB deviec? I am told most (all?) of the latter don't handle non-PC formats (or even non-1.44M formats) at all. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 14:56:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 15:56:25 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA31FE9.5020906@neurotica.com> On 10/21/2011 07:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Which harkens back to the NEED to have any "optimization" include a way to >>> explicitly over-ride or lockout that aptimizing, when the programmer deems >>> it to be inappropriate. > > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would >> even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. > > "IF the users report enough bugs in the software, then we'll have somebody > lookinto it." [head explodes] >> We got to the moon in 1969...no telling whether or not we'll be able >> to get there again, with programmers being the way they are now. :-( >> Maybe we can hitch a ride with the Chinese. > > Hmmm. > We won't resume out presence in space until we devise PRNDL controls and > resume making PDP11/70 supercomputers. Besides, how much money would we > make going to the moon? Why would anybody want to GO there? - you can > see pictures of it in Wikipedia. > Hmmmm. How much would a moon Hasselblad fetch on eBay? This is sooo depressing. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 14:56:29 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:56:29 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: <4EA31BE1.3010303@mac.com> References: <4EA31BE1.3010303@mac.com> Message-ID: On 22 October 2011 20:39, Roger Pugh wrote: > On 10/22/2011 17:44, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> I've bought a copy of LocoScript 4 (or so) to run on my PCW9512+. >> However, I'd also like to get it running under the Joyce emulator on >> my PC. >> > > Hi Liam.. > > If you use the Joyce emulator you should be able to read disks directly and > make an image of the disk that can be used in the emulator. > Start emulator F9 - F2 - Disc mangement - Add a disk image... So I discovered direct from the author, but many thanks for the tip! Imaging it now, in fact. *Crosses fingers* Thanks again for the 'Strad! ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 22 15:06:08 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111022130525.I10772@shell.lmi.net> > > How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would > > even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Oh, approximately the same number as the number of 'glue FPGAs and > Microcontrollers together' hardware 'designers' who can calcualtr LED > current limiting reissotrs, to 24 bits of accuracy? From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Oct 22 15:16:01 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 16:16:01 -0400 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted Message-ID: > The PPS-4 was actually a bit more 'sophisticated' than I > first thought. One other thing that was unexpected was > that they are powered eg. 0 and negative 9V. I wonder why it's like that... The early 70's LSI was mostly PMOS. Simpler devices were often a good match to a 9V battery in handheld devices where that was the target. You wouldn't believe how much effort was put into putting LED drivers on the same chip where they could (often they couldn't and the LED driver was off the main logic chip.) More complex PMOS logic often had special supplies for clock and enable lines. You often find small switching converters (magnetics or charge pump) to generate the required voltages. A little later high-density NMOS also would use oddball voltages (both positive and negative depending on application) for density's sake. e.g. 8080A. Some good examples of how some handheld devices generated the necessary oddball voltages at http://www.jacques-laporte.org/HP35%20power%20unit.htm Tim. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 22 15:36:46 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 15:36:46 -0500 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA31FE9.5020906@neurotica.com> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA31FE9.5020906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110222037.p9MKatcY093984@billy.ezwind.net> >>"IF the users report enough bugs in the software, then we'll have somebody >>lookinto it." > > [head explodes] I stumbled across this howler the other day: From http://ancestry.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ancestry.cfg/php/enduser/sab_answer.php?p_faqid=4442 "QUESTION What can I do if Family Tree Maker 2008-2012 crashes on Windows XP? ANSWER Any application, no matter how stable, crashes from time to time. " - John From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 16:39:54 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:39:54 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: References: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 22 October 2011 20:54, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 22/10/11 17:44, Liam Proven wrote: >> > How might I read a PCW floppy into a PC disk image? It's a 3.5" 720 DD >> > disk. My PC does have a 3=BD" drive and runs Windows 7/64 and Ubuntu >> > 11.10/64. >> >> Are you sure about that? I was under the impression the PCW9512 used a=20 >> 3-inch drive... EME-231 or something like that. >> >> You probably won't be able to do this under Win7; it doesn't allow=20 >> low-level access to the disc controller. Similar story for Linux, unless=20 >> you feel like writing a driver (or patching the existing driver) to do so. > > Isn;t that what the FDRAWCMD ioctl() is for under linux? > > IS the PC floppy drive conencted to a controller on the processor bus > (e.g. it's got a 34 way ribbon cabvle goign to a connector on the > motherboard), or is it a USB deviec? I am told most (all?) of the latter > don't handle non-PC formats (or even non-1.44M formats) at all. My one is on a plain old floppy interface. Yes, I've read of the problems with USB drives, too. I am hoping to try to install OS/2 on an old Thinkpad laptop of mine at some point soon, and as it's a floppyless machine and OS/2 CDs are not bootable (AFAICT), I'm going to have to try to use a USB CD for that. I am not very confident it will work. Joyce itself read my LocoScript 4.11 disk fine. It ground worryingly on the latter half of the tracks - from 39 up to 80, roughly - which worried me, but then I discovered that the disk is only half full anyway. The whole program seems to take up about 384K including a whole load of templates and things. So now I have it running, which was fun. I also couldn't find the keyboard map online until I'd managed to extract my own from the online help in the emulator - but you can't see that when it's running, AFAICT. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 16:42:40 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:42:40 +0100 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 21 October 2011 04:58, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ?Hope you're wearing your asbestos skivvies. >> >> ?[Snip] >> > At the risk if being naive, perhaps this list could use a bit of inspiration > - > to see if we could help the discussion to be more useful. > > There is a book written by Michael Kahn: ?"The TAO of Conversation". > > The primary point is that in an idea conversation, there can never be > an opinion which is right or wrong. ?Attempting to support an opinion > helps us to understand the opinion even if we totally disagree with that > opinion. > > While I agree with both of the opinions of Dave McGuire and Liam Proven, > it seems difficult to figure out exactly which is more useful because they > seem so angry at each other. I only noticed this in a subsequent quote today. I was irritated, yes, but I was trying /very/ hard to be calm, polite and reasonable. I was the one getting abused, not dispensing it. > We could use a bit of "Barn Raising". What does that mean? -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 16:45:44 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:45:44 +0100 Subject: "Previous": a 68K NeXT Cube emulator Message-ID: As a friend has just given me, gratis, a full copy of NeXTStep - 3.0, with upgrade CDs for 3.1 and 3.2 - I thought I would go looking for some way to run them, as I have yet to find a NeXT box that is both [a] complete and [b] which I can afford. It's not there yet, but this looks interesting and promising... http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthread.php?t=20126 -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 22 17:01:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 15:01:24 -0700 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: References: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk>, , Message-ID: <4EA2DAC4.21239.166D757@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Oct 2011 at 22:39, Liam Proven wrote: > My one is on a plain old floppy interface. Yes, I've read of the > problems with USB drives, too. I am hoping to try to install OS/2 on > an old Thinkpad laptop of mine at some point soon, and as it's a > floppyless machine and OS/2 CDs are not bootable (AFAICT), I'm going > to have to try to use a USB CD for that. I am not very confident it > will work. Actually, you may well (I haven't tried it yet) be able to read Joyce floppies with a USB drive, if you're using double-sided formatted media as they're pretty much vanilla 9x512 byte sector formatted. If anyone cares, I can try it and get back to the list. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 17:01:38 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:01:38 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4EA33D42.3090400@neurotica.com> On 10/22/2011 05:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > I was irritated, yes, but I was trying /very/ hard to be calm, polite > and reasonable. I was the one getting abused, not dispensing it. Not from my point of view. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 17:02:45 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 00:02:45 +0200 Subject: Conversation/rhetoric/dialectic - Re: Getting further ot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Over here we have a saying "Stop arguing you two or I will bash your >> heads together!" > > On this list, isn't it 'Stop arguing you two, or I'll crash your > heads right into the platter' :-) > > -tony That was actually very funny! Regards Benjamin From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 22 17:37:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:37:35 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: <4EA0B5EE.4090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA345AF.6010900@neurotica.com> On 10/21/2011 09:17 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: >> That makes about as much sense as saying "We don't need>screwdrivers > anymore, because we have pickles!" > > Did I hear Pickles ?! :) Yes guys, we caused some pickles to be luminescent last week. :) Dan might be willing to share some of the pics. Much fun was had, and terrible smells were produced. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Oct 22 17:57:55 2011 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:57:55 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: References: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4EA34A73.8020900@mac.com> On 10/22/2011 22:39, Liam Proven wrote: > My one is on a plain old floppy interface. Yes, I've read of the > problems with USB drives, too. I am hoping to try to install OS/2 on > an old Thinkpad laptop of mine at some point soon, and as it's a > floppyless machine and OS/2 CDs are not bootable (AFAICT), I'm going > to have to try to use a USB CD for that. I am not very confident it > will work. I use an oldish Dell laptop internal (ejectable) floppy drive that also has a USB connector on it with my Sony Vaio. It can read everything i have thrown at it, with the correct software of course.. Rog From md.benson at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 17:59:17 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:59:17 +0100 Subject: Thinking of selling collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22 Oct 2011, at 19:38, Steven Hirsch wrote: > --> I have several complete sets of install media for Digital Unix 4.x through Tru64 5.something. License keys for everything. Could you look to see what the latest version of Tru64 Alpha you are willing to part with is? I have access to 5.4 B at the moment I think. Anything better than that? -- Mark Benson My Blog: Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/mdbenson "Never send a human to do a machine's job..." From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 18:18:57 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:18:57 -0500 Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: what would the shipping to canada be on one of those be? winnipeg manitoba canada r2w 3l5 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 22 20:02:08 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 21:02:08 -0400 Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA36790.4060703@telegraphics.com.au> On 22/10/11 7:18 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what would the shipping to canada be on one of those be? > > > winnipeg manitoba canada r2w 3l5 > Unlikely to be worth it. There is more of this kind of hardware in North America. --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 22 20:05:24 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 21:05:24 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110222037.p9MKatcY093984@billy.ezwind.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA31FE9.5020906@neurotica.com> <201110222037.p9MKatcY093984@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EA36854.9050903@telegraphics.com.au> On 22/10/11 4:36 PM, John Foust wrote: > >>> "IF the users report enough bugs in the software, then we'll have somebody >>> lookinto it." >> >> [head explodes] > > > I stumbled across this howler the other day: From > http://ancestry.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ancestry.cfg/php/enduser/sab_answer.php?p_faqid=4442 > > "QUESTION > > What can I do if Family Tree Maker 2008-2012 crashes on Windows XP? > > ANSWER > > Any application, no matter how stable, crashes from time to time. > " Beautiful example of the tyranny of low expectations in the PC ghetto. --T > > - John > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 20:26:42 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:26:42 -0500 Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: <4EA36790.4060703@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4EA36790.4060703@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: only dec thing i have been able to find in winnipeg is what was in my dads closit and a fully working pdp8a in an abandond colapsing building. and i've put adds up in the local media looking no responces :( . what i really would like to find is a chasis to put my 11/73 into From jonas at otter.se Sat Oct 22 06:09:53 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:09:53 +0200 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA2A481.1060303@otter.se> On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:09:01 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Interesting. This is not at all well-known (I know people who use Excel > and who need complex numbers who haven't found this...) > > I must look into this and see just what it does. In particular, is a > complex number something that's sotred in oen cell or two (if the > latter, it's a kludge!)? Do the normal arithmetic operators work with > them or do you have special functions (written in prefix as opposed to > infix notation) to do this? I'm not really sure since I found this by Googling, but it seems as if you have to enter complex numbers by entering a function. You can't just type "5+j8" into a cell, you have to go via a dialog box. The number will be displayed as "5+8j" (you can use anything you like instead of "j", it is an argument to the function and presumably[hopefully] does not take part in any calculations. What happens if you use "j" for one number and "i" for another, and then add them, is open to speculation. Could be interesting...) Any arithmetic operators have to be expressed via functions. In other words, clumsy to say the least, but it may actually work. Excel functions and macros, of course, are another subject. IMHO the designer of that functionality must have been an evil, embittered sadist who probably grew up pulling the wings off insects and attaching firecrackers to the tails of cats. /Jonas From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Oct 22 21:09:11 2011 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:09:11 -0400 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <4EA312BC.7090500@neurotica.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <704609A64A354405A566C3E148480026@osa.local> <27C335A9-5C58-401E-A17C-E33575DD2304@neurotica.com> <4EA2E476.1010508@gmail.com> <4EA312BC.7090500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110230209.p9N29B3Z019263@rickmurphy.net> At 03:00 PM 10/22/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > I do not share that opinion. ;) As I've said, I don't want subject > tagging for automatic sorting of email. That is absolutely the wrong > way to do it, and as such, I'd never dream of doing it that way. (you > know how anal I am! ;) I do not share your opinion. :-) Here's what you should add to your .procmailrc, which will get you what you want: :0 fhw * ^List-Id:.* * ^Subject: \/.* | formail -I "Subject: [CCTALK] $MATCH" As I said, that's what the List-Id header is for: reliably identifying mail from the list so you can handle it as you wish. While that's helpful for sorting mail into folders, that's only one thing it's good for. The dual nature of this list (cctech/cctalk) means that the list management software gets confused with cross-posted email. I don't think mailman (which I think is what's used) is smart enough to keep from inserting the tech/talk subject tags multiple times. Perhaps using a single tag for both lists would work and avoid "Re: [CCTECH] Re: [CCTALK] [CCTECH] Re: Re: [CCTALK]" strings. Perhaps it's worthwhile trying that (I don't personally object to inserting a single tag). However, if the list management software can't deal with it, any hope that list members will clean up subject lines before posting is delusionary. -Rick From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 23 03:53:51 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:53:51 +0200 Subject: cctalk subject lines/configuration In-Reply-To: <4EA312BC.7090500@neurotica.com> References: <1319238715.24812.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4EA1FDBE.7090601@neurotica.com> <704609A64A354405A566C3E148480026@osa.local> <27C335A9-5C58-401E-A17C-E33575DD2304@neurotica.com> <4EA2E476.1010508@gmail.com> <4EA312BC.7090500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111023105351.84853012.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 22 Oct 2011 15:00:12 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > it is (based on the other lists I'm on) pretty unusual not to have it. Yes. Many mailing lists suffer from this disease. It started to spreed when more and more lusers got on mailing lists. Those lusers where to dump to setup there MUAs to filter on "X-BeenThere: " or "Sender: " etc. So that "Subject: " mangling idiocy started to spreed. For me this is just nothing else but idiot compatibility. I absolutely can't stand it. Most of the time I can't read the actual subject, beause it is prefixed with so many and long prefixes. All I see in my MUAs subject is prefixes. Relly anoying. I am really glad that classiccmp and the NetBSD lists are free of this *~$\#?%!^/@(*$#(. It is just the same luseritis as top-post-full-quote. Maybe I shloud set up some procmail filtering to remove that |@&^*)#\% prefixing from Subject lines. (And if I get around to do it, I am glad to share my setup with you. Because the same stuff that removes prefixes can be used to insert them. So you will get your prefixes on lists that don't do it for you. :-) ) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From colineby at isallthat.com Sun Oct 23 08:51:24 2011 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 14:51:24 +0100 Subject: HP 2116 restoration: Feasiblity and "what to look for" advice needed! Message-ID: <1319377884.8092.40.camel@hp0> All, I've located two HP 2116 systems, a B and a C. I've also got access to period Teletypes, 2748A paper tape reader requiring restoration, and the uncatalogued back stores of a museum. I'm strongly considering a restoring one working system from the two for museum demonstration and display. If you were me, or have had experience with these systems before, what would you keep in mind or look out for? Assume for the moment I have the time and skills myself or available from colleagues to carry out the work. All thoughts and contributions gratefully received. Some background and progress: * neither system has been in "conservation friendly" storage conditions. * the museum has fairly extensive HP collection, which makes missing component location more likely if required * the museum also has a range of HP instruments which might be used to create an interactive industrial control or scientific computing display My first steps so far: 1. Conduct background reading research using internet sites and scans. Thanks to all the following for making these resources available * Al and Bitsavers, * http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/HP2116.html (B Hilpert) * http://rikers.org (Tim Riker) * http://www.hpmuseum.net/ 2. Begin basic physical evaluation of the "C" system: a. Basic cleaning of the cabinet and vacuuming out of components -- so far excluding the card cages (ran out of time) b. Begin inventorying components and starting photographing them The verdict so far is that environmental damage appears limited to the front panel and some limited contact corrosion on the chassis and panels. There's mildew evident on the some cabling, but not really showing on what I've seen on the backplane wire-wrap so far so far. The cards are in a muddle though. This is what I've catalogued: ================================================= 1 - 22 EMPTY 101 A101 Front Panel Coupler 102 A102-105 Arithmetic Logic 103 A102-105 Arithmetic Logic 104 A102-105 Arithmetic Logic 105 A102-105 Arithmetic Logic 106 A106 TIMING GEN (clock) 107 A107 Instruction Decoder 108 EMPTY -- Missing A108 Shift logic (this could be in the loose boards) 109 EMPTY 110 EMPTY 111 EMPTY 112 EMPTY 113 EMPTY 114 EMPTY 115 EMPTY 116 EMPTY 117 EMPTY 118 EMPTY 119 EMPTY 120 EMPTY 201 A201 I/O Control 202 EMPTY 203 EMPTY 204 EMPTY 205 ?? *not yet identified* 206 A13 MDB (this is supposed to be in slot 13?) 207 POWER FAIL (not sure what this is in relation related cards 208 POWER FAIL 209 POWER FAIL 210 POWER FAIL 211 ?? 212 A4,6,16,18 Inhibit Driver (should be in the 2116 B according to #1) 213 A4,6,16,18 Inhibit Driver (should be in the 2116 B according to #1) 214 A4,6,16,18 Inhibit Driver (should be in the 2116 B according to #1) 215 A4,6,16,18 Inhibit Driver (should be in the 2116 B according to #1) 216 MMD / XV Driver ( should be associated with a core board ) 217 SSA ( should be associated with a core board ) 218 A2 219 A8,9,14,15 Driver Switch (should be in the 2116 B according to #1) 220 MDB ( system should only have one of these ) 221 EMPTY 222 EMPTY Looks like two or three core stacks and four cards: POWER FAIL ?? ?? ?? =================================================== Given that some of these cards look like they are from the wrong machine, all the memory slots are unpopulated (some are stuck in the IO rack), I'm guessing that the guts of this system have been mixed and matched with others, possibly the "B" model -- either that or just shuffled. I won't know until I've started to look at the "B" model for comparison, and of course, completed the cataloguing of this one. -- Colin From system11 at bigpond.com Sun Oct 23 05:16:44 2011 From: system11 at bigpond.com (JENNY & ROYCE SMITH) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:16:44 +1100 Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <331ECE750FDE4292B7203601C3628AD0@roycemain> To. Adian Stoness Re the pdp8a Please give description of disks etc, and cabinet size etc. and possibility of packing and shipping to Sydney Australia. Are there any disks, floppies and documentation with it. Royce Smith. system11 at bigpond.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness Sent: Sunday, 23 October 2011 12:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) only dec thing i have been able to find in winnipeg is what was in my dads closit and a fully working pdp8a in an abandond colapsing building. and i've put adds up in the local media looking no responces :( . what i really would like to find is a chasis to put my 11/73 into From cym224 at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 08:52:10 2011 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:52:10 -0400 Subject: Thinking of selling collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22 October 2011 14:38, Steven Hirsch wrote (in part): Normally, I do not scavage (as in request bits that should be kept together) but... > HP Visualize B2000 > > - Complete set of HPUX 11i distribution media > - Complete set C/C++ development tools > > SGI Iris Indigo R3000 > > - Basic machine - no 3d graphics > > SGI Iris Indigo R4400 > > - Every option known to Westerm Man, including 3d graphics > > (I have a couple of Iris Indigo keyboards and mice. ?These are not common > items) > > SGI Indigo 2 (Teal) R4400 CPU > > SGI Indigo 2 (Purple) 768MB Memory, Uber hi-end graphics board, 100Base > ethernet. ?I _think_ it's an R8000 (IP26). > > Sun Ultra 5 > > Sun Ultra 2 > > Sun Ultra 60 > > - Very tricked-out machine with 2x 450 Mhz. SPARC cpu and lotsa memory. > ?Has U160 SCSI controller. > > (I have Sun keyboards and mice a-plenty) > > (I also have a gorgeous, early Sparc 2 with a box of S-Bus cards, but I'm > planning to hang on to it) > > --> Lots and lots of Solaris distros on CD and DVD. > > 2x DEC Alpha Multia. ?I know one is operational. ?Slower than death warmed > over, but very high "cute" factor. > > DEC Alpha PC64 w/ 256MB of memory in PC case. ?Operational system > > DEC Alpha PC164 motherboard (maybe 2..) > > DEC Alpha UP2000+ system w/ 2x 700Mhz. 2MB cache 21264 > > - This is a beast. ?Huge power supply, Adaptec 29360 controller, several > disks. > > - Was my pride and joy until it went flakey. ?Might be good for parts or a > demonstration of poorly-characterized electromigration on ageing VLSI parts. > > --> I have several complete sets of install media for Digital Unix 4.x > through Tru64 5.something. License keys for everything. > DEC 5000 MIPS-based workstation (bare system, but works last I knew) > > DEC VAXStation 3100 - Condition unknown > > - Have a box of VMS 5.x docs, Ultrix CD, Full set of VMS media. > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Oct 23 10:03:40 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 08:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1319382220.92810.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi! At long last the S-100 8086 CPU board is done and ready to go. I will make a manufacturing order for PCBs in the next few days or so. If you would like to be included please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM to get on the list. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%208086%20CPU%20board http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%20CPU%20Board.htm These PCBs will be $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US or $6 elsewhere. John has CP/M-86 running on the S-100 8086 CPU board with a debug monitor and BIOS. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Oct 23 10:06:14 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 08:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S-100 8086 CPU board Message-ID: <1319382374.84435.YahooMailClassic@web180209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi! At long last the S-100 8086 CPU board is done and ready to go. I will make a manufacturing order for PCBs in the next few days or so. If you would like to be included please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM to get on the list. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%208086%20CPU%20board http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%20CPU%20Board.htm These PCBs will be $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US or $6 elsewhere. John has CP/M-86 running on the S-100 8086 CPU board with a debug monitor and BIOS. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 10:19:52 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:19:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thinking of selling collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: I should clarify something: I am perfectly willing to part with individual machines! While I'd love to have someone take the whole thing, I'm practical enough to know this is unlikely to happen. Where I draw the line is pulling boards, components or memory and/or selling software or docs without the systems. Steve -- From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 14:44:01 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:44:01 +0200 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88D55C84-0A28-4EB3-83B5-89BBCFF0EA89@gmail.com> >> The PPS-4 was actually a bit more 'sophisticated' than I >> first thought. One other thing that was unexpected was >> that they are powered eg. 0 and negative 9V. I wonder why it's like that... > > The early 70's LSI was mostly PMOS. > > Simpler devices were often a good match to a 9V battery in handheld devices where that was the target. You wouldn't believe how much effort was put into putting LED drivers on the same chip where they could (often they couldn't and the LED driver was off the main logic chip.) > > More complex PMOS logic often had special supplies for clock and enable lines. You often find small switching converters (magnetics or charge pump) to generate the required voltages. > > A little later high-density NMOS also would use oddball voltages (both positive and negative depending on application) for density's sake. e.g. 8080A. > > Some good examples of how some handheld devices generated the necessary oddball voltages at http://www.jacques-laporte.org/HP35%20power%20unit.htm > > Tim. Thank you for that explanation. I still don't understand the reason for the rev. polarity, but it seems that high would then be -9v? I guess its because of the way the PMOS gates are made. Why are the LED drivers so difficult to make, is it because of the 'high' (a few mA) current ? Regards Benjamin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 23 14:20:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:20:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111022130525.I10772@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 22, 11 01:06:08 pm Message-ID: > > > > How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would > > > even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. > > On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > Oh, approximately the same number as the number of 'glue FPGAs and > > Microcontrollers together' hardware 'designers' who can calculate LED > > current limiting resistors. > > to 24 bits of accuracy? Unfortuantely _yes_ !. These are the sort of people who say 'There are no 382.73 ohm resistors in the box, and I can't find them in any catalogue'. When you ask what they want them for, it turns out that's the value they calcuated using (V_supply - V_f)/I_Led using data sheet typical values of V_f (LED forward voltate) and I_Led (LED current) for the nominal supply voltaget hey're using. And they don't believe you when you tell them to stick in the first 390 Ohm resistor they find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 23 14:12:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:12:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA2A481.1060303@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 22, 11 01:09:53 pm Message-ID: [Complex numbers in Excel] > I'm not really sure since I found this by Googling, but it seems as if > you have to enter complex numbers by entering a function. You can't just > type "5+j8" into a cell, you have to go via a dialog box. The number > will be displayed as "5+8j" (you can use anything you like instead of > "j", it is an argument to the function and presumably[hopefully] does > not take part in any calculations. What happens if you use "j" for one > number and "i" for another, and then add them, is open to speculation. > Could be interesting...) > > Any arithmetic operators have to be expressed via functions. This doesn't sound much more pleasant than using separate cells for real and imaginary parts and writing the appropriate functions to handle them, something that you can do in just about any spreadsheet. There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for 'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 23 14:17:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:17:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA31F92.6080503@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 22, 11 03:54:58 pm Message-ID: > >> How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would > >> even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. > > > > Oh, approximately the same number as the number of 'glue FPGAs and > > Microcontrollers together' hardware 'designers' who can calcualtr LED > > current limiting reissotrs, bias a transistor properly, etc. > > Hmm, I dunno if I can agree with that. It does take quite a bit of > expertise to handle FPGAs and microcontrollers. (note I'm not talking > about "slap an Arduino into a project and call it done" here) I said nothing about using FPGAs or microcontrollers _well_ (or even properly). I was thinking of the sort of 'designer' who draws a schemaitc with a microcontroller or FPGA in the middle and that's it. The programming of said chip is a 'software problem' and is not his responsibility. Oh, such people rarely look at the features of the microcontorller they're using, so you'll find a microcontroller with, say, on-chip I2C support talking to an I2C EPROM but not using the pinms for said hardawre suppor so it has to be bit-banged. And then there are the FPGA designers who design like this : THey'll enter a scheamtic in the schematic capture program and simulate it. It doens't work so they say things like 'let's invert that signal and see if that helps. OK, it didn't, what happes if we change that AND to an OR?' No real method, no logic to what they are doing. I've met them... Using these chips well does take considerable skill, I agree. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 23 14:58:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:58:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conversation/rhetoric/dialectic - Re: Getting further ot In-Reply-To: from "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=" at Oct 23, 11 00:02:45 am Message-ID: > > > On Oct 22, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Over here we have a saying "Stop arguing you two or I will bash your > >> heads together!" > > > > On this list, isn't it 'Stop arguing you two, or I'll crash your > > heads right into the platter' :-) > > > > -tony > > That was actually very funny! The problem with my attempts at humour is that you can't repeat them in polite company. 'Polite company' has never heard of a headcrash (or indeed heard a headcrash). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 23 15:11:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:11:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <88D55C84-0A28-4EB3-83B5-89BBCFF0EA89@gmail.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=" at Oct 23, 11 09:44:01 pm Message-ID: > I still don't understand the reason for the rev. polarity, but it It's similar ot the difference between NPN and PNP transistors. Everythign flips upside-down :-) > seems that high would then be -9v? Probably. You cna actualyl take the logic levels whichever way you want, and provided you're totally consistent (and consistent in how you name the gates), it'll all work. There is nothing wrong with the statement that 'The 7400 is a quad 2-input NOR gate with a +5V power supply and logic levels such that '1' is between 0 and 0.8V and '0' is between 2.4V and 5V'. [Before I get an long string of messages telling me the databook says that the 7400 is a NAND gate chip, I know that!.But notice I've also swapped the logic levels round...] > I guess its because of the way the PMOS gates are made. > > Why are the LED drivers so difficult to make, is it because of the > 'high' (a few mA) current ? Baiscally, yes. The logic transistors work at a much lower current. Often the separate LED driver chip was a bipolar (as opposed to MOS) device. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 23 15:25:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 13:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111023132201.M47652@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper > complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for > 'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. In many cases, "REAL" (actually "floating point") numbers are inappropriate. For MONEY, I tried to get my students to use ints (and calculate the pennies not the dollars), and then just move the PERIOD when they display the results. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 23 15:55:39 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 16:55:39 -0400 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111023132201.M47652@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111023132201.M47652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA47F4B.4060806@telegraphics.com.au> On 23/10/11 4:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper >> complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for >> 'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. > > In many cases, "REAL" (actually "floating point") numbers are > inappropriate. For MONEY, I tried to get my students to use ints (and > calculate the pennies not the dollars), and then just move the PERIOD > when they display the results. > > And what reaction did you get to presenting this very important concept of fixed point or exact numbers? It is not as if this isn't immediately useful in the commercial software business. Any common RDBMS demands that one choose between fixed and floating types, and many people choose the wrong type. This is also an FAQ on pretty much every programming forum... :( These are the programmers equal to Tony's 'There are no 382.73 ohm resistors in the box, and I can't find them in any catalogue' anecdote. --Toby From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 16:20:47 2011 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:20:47 +0200 Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA4852F.1070803@gmail.com> Hello. If small stuff is still available (boards, disks) I could pay for shipping to Italy. Let me know what you have and if it can be arranged... Thanks Andrea From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 17:01:09 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:01:09 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62EE7742-23F1-4120-95D9-76F325290E30@gmail.com> On Oct 23, 2011, at 3:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > And then there are the FPGA designers who design like this : THey'll > enter a scheamtic in the schematic capture program and simulate it. It > doens't work so they say things like 'let's invert that signal and see if > that helps. OK, it didn't, what happes if we change that AND to an OR?' > No real method, no logic to what they are doing. I've met them... Oh lord, and then there's the ones who make a pipelined structure, but can't be bothered to figure out when a timing-sensitive signal is actually supposed to happen, so they just make a giant delay chain or five and simulate until they've picked the "right" bit position in the chain that simulates kinda-sorta right... And then they don't even leave a comment in the HDL about what their ugly hack is even supposed to do. One of our customers actually had a number of VHDL files (about 2500 lines each) whose headers indicated that they were co-authored by one Jose Cuervo, which seemed about right given the contents. And going back to circuit design, let's not forget the folks who put zener ESD protection on everything, including the input ferrite beads! It was a circuit for a military device - the kind used for landing planes on carriers - that I saw that on. Designed by someone who makes twice as much as me and had been at the job for three or four times as long. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 17:04:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 15:04:07 -0700 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: References: <20111022130525.I10772@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 22, 11 01:06:08 pm, Message-ID: <4EA42CE7.25798.1575271@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2011 at 20:20, Tony Duell wrote: > Unfortuantely _yes_ !. These are the sort of people who say 'There are > no 382.73 ohm resistors in the box, and I can't find them in any > catalogue'. When you ask what they want them for, it turns out that's > the value they calcuated using (V_supply - V_f)/I_Led using data sheet > typical values of V_f (LED forward voltate) and I_Led (LED current) > for the nominal supply voltaget hey're using. And they don't believe > you when you tell them to stick in the first 390 Ohm resistor they > find. A side phenomenon is that few engineering students understand much about how things are manufactured. If you purchase a reel of 470 ohm 1/4W 10% carbon comp resistors, you may reasonably expect that not a single one of them will be within 1% of 470 ohms. (Film resistors are a different matter, however). --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 17:04:33 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <88D55C84-0A28-4EB3-83B5-89BBCFF0EA89@gmail.com> References: <88D55C84-0A28-4EB3-83B5-89BBCFF0EA89@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83742B92-8F94-42BC-8E6B-5314B3D7D4E6@gmail.com> On Oct 23, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > Why are the LED drivers so difficult to make, is it because of the 'high' (a few mA) current ? In the IC world, a few mA is pretty high current. The amount of silicon devoted to making the I/O pads can actually dwarf the area devoted to the logic on a chip with a lot of multi-mA I/Os. Even as recently as the '90s, it was a bit of a luxury to drive LEDs directly from I/O pins (for example, I seem to recall the near-ubiquitous PIC16F84 only had a few pins capable of that, the rest you'd want to slap a 2N3904 on the output to drive your LEDs). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 17:07:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 15:07:23 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA47F4B.4060806@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <20111023132201.M47652@shell.lmi.net>, <4EA47F4B.4060806@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA42DAB.26744.15A5001@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2011 at 16:55, Toby Thain wrote: > And what reaction did you get to presenting this very important > concept of fixed point or exact numbers? It is not as if this isn't > immediately useful in the commercial software business. Any common > RDBMS demands that one choose between fixed and floating types, and > many people choose the wrong type. This is also an FAQ on pretty much > every programming forum... Any calculation where the decimal point is movable is "floating point", even if said number is not in exponential notation. The two are not the same, even though the terms are often confused. Early calculators that would simply shift the point one way or the other in a field of significant digits is an example of floating point, but not exponential notation. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 18:25:48 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 19:25:48 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111023132201.M47652@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111023132201.M47652@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6646EBEE-CDE2-4CF0-ADD5-B5433453C594@gmail.com> On Oct 23, 2011, at 4:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper >> complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for >> 'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. > > In many cases, "REAL" (actually "floating point") numbers are > inappropriate. For MONEY, I tried to get my students to use ints (and > calculate the pennies not the dollars), and then just move the PERIOD > when they display the results. Which is part of why VisiCalc appeared on the Apple II first; the 6502 had a built-in "decimal" mode which did the calculations in BCD, which was a huge boon for business calculations. I seem to recall the full POWER instruction set (not the subset used on PowerPC) has a number of decimal operations as well. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 18:42:57 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:42:57 -0500 Subject: HP 2116 restoration: Feasiblity and "what to look for" advice needed! In-Reply-To: <1319377884.8092.40.camel@hp0> References: <1319377884.8092.40.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <4EA4A681.6010005@gmail.com> Colin Eby wrote: > All, > > I've located two HP 2116 systems, a B and a C. Hi Colin, I'll save you a little bit of effort (at least on the 'B'), as here's my catalogue of the very same machines from four years ago :-) http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2007-November/063044.html ... although I never did get chance to look into whether the 'B' system had any 'hidden' core. It was about a fortnight after posting that message that all my visa stuff went through and I hopped the Atlantic permanently to the US, so I never did get the chance to do any more with either system. cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 23 18:54:40 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 19:54:40 -0400 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA42DAB.26744.15A5001@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20111023132201.M47652@shell.lmi.net>, <4EA47F4B.4060806@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA42DAB.26744.15A5001@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA4A940.2080003@telegraphics.com.au> On 23/10/11 6:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Oct 2011 at 16:55, Toby Thain wrote: > >> And what reaction did you get to presenting this very important >> concept of fixed point or exact numbers? It is not as if this isn't >> immediately useful in the commercial software business. Any common >> RDBMS demands that one choose between fixed and floating types, and >> many people choose the wrong type. This is also an FAQ on pretty much >> every programming forum... > > Any calculation where the decimal point is movable is "floating > point", even if said number is not in exponential notation. The two I was talking about fixed point, which is why I wrote "fixed point". The contextual examples are Fred's pennies or SQL's DECIMAL. --T > are not the same, even though the terms are often confused. Early > calculators that would simply shift the point one way or the other in > a field of significant digits is an example of floating point, but > not exponential notation. > > --Chuck > > From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Oct 23 19:16:30 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 02:16:30 +0200 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110222037.p9MKatcY093984@billy.ezwind.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA31FE9.5020906@neurotica.com> <201110222037.p9MKatcY093984@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20111024001630.GC6045@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 03:36:46PM -0500, John Foust wrote: > > >>"IF the users report enough bugs in the software, then we'll have somebody > >>lookinto it." > > > > [head explodes] > > > I stumbled across this howler the other day: From > http://ancestry.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ancestry.cfg/php/enduser/sab_answer.php?p_faqid=4442 > > "QUESTION > > What can I do if Family Tree Maker 2008-2012 crashes on Windows XP? > > ANSWER > > Any application, no matter how stable, crashes from time to time. > " Let me translate: "Not only do we lack even the faintest shadow of a clue on how to write reliable software, we also not even pretend to give a damn." HTH, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Oct 23 19:39:15 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:39:15 -0400 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted Message-ID: > Why are the LED drivers so difficult to make, is it because of the 'high' (a few mA) current ? Most of the handheld devices of the 70's used multiplexed displays (well, still true today) and while the average LED current might be a few mA per segment, the peak current in the drivers could be ten times higher. Some of the intended-to-be-driven-by-PMOS-driver-chips of the 70's are still around today and put to other good uses. e.g. ULN2002. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 20:04:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:04:01 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA4A940.2080003@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4EA42DAB.26744.15A5001@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA4A940.2080003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA45711.4140.1FC075B@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2011 at 19:54, Toby Thain wrote: > I was talking about fixed point, which is why I wrote "fixed point". > > The contextual examples are Fred's pennies or SQL's DECIMAL. Regardless, I was referring to the old, almost forgotten "floating decimal point" sometimes found on old calculators and in early computer programs. There, the point moves anywhere within the significand, but not outside of it. For example, if you have a 4 digit device, a floating point can express values between .0001 and 9999. No exponent to extend the range of absolute values. Fixed point, in the same sense only means that the decimal point is anchored to a particular position; e.g., 12.34 is a fixed-point number with the point fixed between the two high-order digits and the two low-order digits. It's a shame that just about all the web has on "floating point" is about exponential/scientifc notation, which is not strictly the same-- including the screwball notion that "fixed point" somehow means "integer". --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:32:38 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:32:38 -0400 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA45711.4140.1FC075B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA42DAB.26744.15A5001@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA4A940.2080003@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA45711.4140.1FC075B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <446D0C8C-5187-4AC0-BCEB-6AB973B691B4@gmail.com> On Oct 23, 2011, at 9:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Regardless, I was referring to the old, almost forgotten "floating > decimal point" sometimes found on old calculators and in early > computer programs. There, the point moves anywhere within the > significand, but not outside of it. > > For example, if you have a 4 digit device, a floating point can > express values between .0001 and 9999. No exponent to extend the > range of absolute values. Fixed point, in the same sense only means > that the decimal point is anchored to a particular position; e.g., > 12.34 is a fixed-point number with the point fixed between the two > high-order digits and the two low-order digits. But if you're moving the decimal point around, aren't you changing the exponent? You're just doing it in base 10 instead of base 2. That's why it's called floating-point - the point can move around. Typically, fixed-point means you have fixed-size integer and fraction portions. Say, with dollars, you might have 4 digits of integer and 2 digits of fraction, which would restrict you to 9999.99. Or in binary, you might have a fixed 24 bits of integer and 8 bits of fraction. The decimal never moves, in fact it can't (unless you're printing it out and just don't print all the zeroes at the end). - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 23 20:36:23 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:36:23 -0400 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA45711.4140.1FC075B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA42DAB.26744.15A5001@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA4A940.2080003@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA45711.4140.1FC075B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA4C117.7000506@telegraphics.com.au> On 23/10/11 9:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Oct 2011 at 19:54, Toby Thain wrote: > >> I was talking about fixed point, which is why I wrote "fixed point". >> >> The contextual examples are Fred's pennies or SQL's DECIMAL. > > Regardless, I was referring to the old, almost forgotten "floating > decimal point" sometimes found on old calculators and in early > computer programs. There, the point moves anywhere within the > significand, but not outside of it. > > For example, if you have a 4 digit device, a floating point can > express values between .0001 and 9999. No exponent to extend the > range of absolute values. Fixed point, in the same sense only means > that the decimal point is anchored to a particular position; e.g., > 12.34 is a fixed-point number with the point fixed between the two > high-order digits and the two low-order digits. > > It's a shame that just about all the web has on "floating point" is > about exponential/scientifc notation, which is not strictly the same-- > including the screwball notion that "fixed point" somehow means > "integer". Taking a reductionist view, both fixed point and floating point are ways of interpreting a similar *pair* of integers - mantissa and exponent. This is the clarifying detail that so often eludes the common programmer. "Fixedness" is just a convention that may be enforced (e.g. by DECIMAL, or a hard coded decimal point as in Fred's example). IMHO the inconvenience of IEEE-754 FP for counting pennies is more to do with the denominator base not being 10 - sometimes combined with ignorance about the number of significant figures obtained in the two common IEEE formats. --T > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 21:51:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 19:51:32 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <446D0C8C-5187-4AC0-BCEB-6AB973B691B4@gmail.com> References: , <4EA45711.4140.1FC075B@cclist.sydex.com>, <446D0C8C-5187-4AC0-BCEB-6AB973B691B4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA47044.36.25E7665@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2011 at 21:32, David Riley wrote: > But if you're moving the decimal point around, aren't you changing the > exponent? You're just doing it in base 10 instead of base 2. That's > why it's called floating-point - the point can move around. I don't care if the radix is 2, 10 or 13. What is normally termed "floating point" is a slight misnomer. If you will, a floating point can move within the mantissa, but not outside of it. i.e. it can have the position +/- logx(n), where n is the number of digits in base x of the mantissa. What's normally called "floating point" in the computerish sense, allows the point to move far outside of the number of digits in the mantissa. Just a minor point (pun intended). I'm sure that if you do much microcontroller or integer DSP work, you use a lot of non-integer fixed point math in the form of scaled integers. It's interesting that while some vendors seem to be intent on dropping decimal support on CPUs, there are others proposing decimal co-processors-- and the POWER6 and 7 CPUs have always had decimal floating point capabilities. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 23:28:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:28:15 -0700 Subject: Howlers, was C trivia, was Dennis Ritchie... In-Reply-To: <20111024001630.GC6045@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <201110222037.p9MKatcY093984@billy.ezwind.net>, <20111024001630.GC6045@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4EA486EF.12268.2B702E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2011 at 2:16, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Let me translate: "Not only do we lack even the faintest shadow of a > clue on how to write reliable software, we also not even pretend to > give a damn." This seems to be a trend that is increasingly an unquestioned article of faith. From a Chinese forum moderator in response to what is a very clear software crash: "As we know there are no such "Bug Free" software exist. This is why the software need to be updated regularly. Please check back the software update regularly." In this case, "regularly" means "last recompiled in 2008". Those damned file dates! --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 00:59:24 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:59:24 -0500 Subject: "Previous": a 68K NeXT Cube emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > As a friend has just given me, gratis, a full copy of NeXTStep - 3.0, > with upgrade CDs for 3.1 and 3.2 - I thought I would go looking for > some way to run them, as I have yet to find a NeXT box that is both > [a] complete and [b] which I can afford. > > It's not there yet, but this looks interesting and promising... > > http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthread.php?t=20126 Wow, cool....it gets points for the name alone. But how should the name be rendered? PReVIOUS or PrEVIOUS? ;) Someday, perhaps the list of what hasn't been successfully emulated will be shorter than the one for what has. -- jht From colineby at isallthat.com Mon Oct 24 01:43:41 2011 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 07:43:41 +0100 Subject: HP 2116 restoration: Feasiblity and "what to look for" advice needed! Message-ID: Jules,? Excellent! That's really helpful. I've seen a crate of 21xx cabling and gubins as ?which?needs?investigated, and there's a whole room of HP goodies to sort, not to?mention a handful of later related systems. I have the tape drive back at the house for a clean and checkup. It looks pretty hopeful, but will need a few things. -Colin Eby Jules Richardson wrote: Colin Eby wrote: > All, > > I've located two HP 2116 systems, a B and a C. Hi Colin, I'll save you a little bit of effort (at least on the 'B'), as here's my catalogue of the very same machines from four years ago :-) ?? http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2007-November/063044.html ... although I never did get chance to look into whether the 'B' system had any 'hidden' core. It was about a fortnight after posting that message that all my visa stuff went through and I hopped the Atlantic permanently to the US,? so I never did get the chance to do any more with either system. cheers Jules From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 24 01:51:53 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:51:53 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <4EA30846.5050400@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 22, 11 01:15:34 pm, Message-ID: OK, I still don't have an answer to the question I asked: has anyone here actually done this sort of work on a HP 9845? I opened up the monitor, but the part number for the CRT wasn't in evidence. Given the orientation of the tube, I think it's going to take major disassembly to find that, to see if I can get a reasonable replacement if that's the route I choose to go. If possible, I'd like to have my action plan in place before I tear it down to bare bones, so I can get the job done and reassemble things before I forget where they go. I've been playing with other aspects of the device and it's all sorts of fun. I did some simple graphing, which is delightfully straightforward. Something I read suggested an experiment, and I discovered that it is in fact possible to make changes to a program *while it is running." For instance, I did a simple PRINT "HELLO" loop and while it was running changed the line to PRINT "GOODBYE". The output promptly changed when I stored the new line. I also learned that the capstan rollers in the tape drives are, predictably, mush, and I have a DC100 tape cartridge to clean out. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 12:44 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > > If one wanted real implosion protection, it might be worth > > investigating some of the mylar window films made for the purpose of > > containing fragments: > > > > http://windowfilmdepot.com/protection.htm > > That's an interesting idea! Indeed it is. I wonder if a CRT with the frotn glass removed, but covered with this material would be safe? > > I wonder how critical it is to fill the gap between the CRT and faceplate > with something, though? For the HP 250 it was a non-functional display, but > on a working screen will there be problems if there's any air trapped in > there (blooming or reflections off the back of the faceplate, for example) There might be slight reflections, but no worse than with the separate safety glass used in 1950's TV sets. In the case of your HP250, even thoguh you are not running it it could still be an implosion risk without the correctl-bonded faceplate. > I don't know how the faceplates are/were normally stuck in place at > assembly - did they apply bonding compound to the front of the CRT and then > press the plate into it, or did they suspend the plate in front of the CRT, > seal around the edges, then pour/inject the bonding compound into the > resulting gap? ALmost certialy they applied the bonding stuff to one of the parts (which one I can't say) and then put them together. -tony From elazzerini at interfree.it Sun Oct 23 17:04:01 2011 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:04:01 +0200 Subject: Kaypro-II video section Message-ID: <000001cc91cf$ad49bb50$07dd31f0$@it> The computer-Kaypro II had a 9" green phosphor monochrome monitor composed of a LR30477 E39164 TOSHIBA CRT and a printed circuit steering Toshiba TLC-134-TV-0. I tried to supply it with 12Vdc and I noticed that the cathode of the CRT is lit, while the screen does not turns on and no shows light even using the knob back adjustment for the light intensity. Wishing to do TV repair technician I need the wiring diagram of the circuit electric drive Toshiba TLC-134-T-V-0. Is there someone who has it? Here some pictures: http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2026.html http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2018.html http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2019.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/67772736 at N07/sets/72157627837488485/ . Unfortunately I did not notice on the board (component side) or under the card (solder side) no sign of burning. I seem to hear at the power on of the CRT an high-frequency hiss. Having found the power supply of the Kaypro-II not working and not knowing whether it is the motherboard, I was first trying to see if the CRT works. As a signal source I am using the monochrome output of a PC 8088 XT video card because the kaypro-II accepts distinct signals: video, Hsync and Vsync. It could be not true that the polarities of these signals are useful as a signal generator to test the video section of Kaypro-II. Any suggestions would be great. The schematic much more. Enrico From robgarn at mac.com Mon Oct 24 01:55:50 2011 From: robgarn at mac.com (Robert Garner) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:55:50 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51625307-7788-4C07-819D-38046EB733B8@mac.com> As an alternative to the hot wire approach, I placed my moldy PDP-12 CRT+faceplate into a tub of PROSOCO Dicone NC9 "silicone sealand & adhesive remover." After about a week, the silicone seal had separated and was easily removed. I'm not sure how best to remount the CRT with the glass faceplate and metal surrounding rim without reapplying a RTV/PVA layer and re-bonding it all with silicone again. - Robert p.s. If you're in the Bay Area: there's a gallon jug of leftover Dicone NC9 for the asking. On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:34 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 25 > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:28:56 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > > Subject: RE: HP screen screen rot > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have fixed a few Rainbow monitors suffering from screen mould. > It may be crude but I just removed the outer glass by breaking it into parts > and then peeled off the offending plastic layer. > > The tube then goes back into the case and you end up with a narrow gap > between the bezel and the tube. > > If you are not used to working with glass and CRT's then this way is not for > you > > > Regards > Rod Smallwood --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 8:33 PM > On 10/17/11 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> Does anyone have specific experience with addressing >> this problem on this machine? > > The procedure is removal of the RTV between the safety > glass and CRT separating the two by > cutting through the RTV with a hot wire, then reattachment > at the corners. > > There are some examples on the web. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 24 04:09:31 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:09:31 +0200 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <4EA30846.5050400@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 22, 11 01:15:34 pm, Message-ID: <001101cc922c$a75ae4f0$f610aed0$@xs4all.nl> > OK, I still don't have an answer to the question I asked: has anyone here actually > done this sort of work on a HP 9845? I opened up the monitor, but the part > number for the CRT wasn't in evidence. Given the orientation of the tube, I think > it's going to take major disassembly to find that, to see if I can get a reasonable > replacement if that's the route I choose to go. If possible, I'd like to have my > action plan in place before I tear it down to bare bones, so I can get the job > done and reassemble things before I forget where they go. Yes, on my HP 9845B I removed the plate and cleaned the tube, it's running without it no (I know the risc, but never saw a crt implode and take my chances on that) After you removed the monitor you can quit easily dismantle it, HP designed those machines to be serviceable. At www.HP9845.net you can find the schematics of the monitor and in the service manuals the part numbers. I'm not sure if there are any differences between the in the USA and German produced machines. > I've been playing with other aspects of the device and it's all sorts of fun. I did > some simple graphing, which is delightfully straightforward. Something I read > suggested an experiment, and I discovered that it is in fact possible to make > changes to a program *while it is running." For instance, I did a simple PRINT > "HELLO" loop and while it was running changed the line to PRINT "GOODBYE". > The output promptly changed when I stored the new line. I also learned that the > capstan rollers in the tape drives are, predictably, mush, and I have a DC100 tape > cartridge to clean out. -- Ian You better can use HPDRIVE from Angas at the HP9845.net site, DC100A tapes from HP are bad. The magnetic layer loosens or the belt breaks or they just become spaghetti. I've had new ones shrink-wrapped, after opening they ran once to become spaghetti. You can use new tapes from Athana but you have to increase the write current slightly (~20%) Using a HP-IB interface and HPDrive is a much better option, if of cause you have the HP 98034B HP-IB interface or 98034A revised version and the mass storage rom. (If not contact me, I think I have one on spare) The next thing to do is running the exerciser, when it runs al tests ok your lucky. Else you probably have to replace the roms by a romboard (see HP9845.net) if so contact me, I do have the PCB's so you can build one. When I let produce them I let them make some more, so I can offer them to other collectors just at cost price + shipping. -Rik From snowen at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 04:10:38 2011 From: snowen at gmail.com (Simon Owen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:10:38 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > How might I read a PCW floppy into a PC disk image? It's a 3.5" 720 DD > disk. My PC does have a 3?" drive and runs Windows 7/64 and Ubuntu > 11.10/64. > My disk utility (http://simonowen.com/samdisk/) should be able to create an image under Windows 7 x64. Use: SAMdisk a: yourimage.dsk and the output will be EDSK, which I believe is fine for Joyce. Si From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 24 04:54:32 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:54:32 +0000 Subject: Working as a systems programmer on IBM big iron In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D767@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201110240954.p9O9sZBm027923@imr-da05.mx.aol.com> Thanks for your note, Rich. This is a wierd one for some reason, mystery surrounds it. I know people who remember every CPU model and OS they ran, how much core they had, what date they got the machine, etc. but nobody seems to remember the details on when IBM started their current policy of not shipping source or when OCO was. I guess everyone was so traumatized they blocked it out! All the confusion and lack of detail is surprising when you consider how much people remember the details of everything else. If you want I can ask what people recommend to run on your 360/40. I know a few old time sysprogs. I have definitely heard of people running starter systems with much less than 64K, I just don't know if they were good for anything except sysgens. From etienne at tlabs.ac.za Mon Oct 24 05:45:58 2011 From: etienne at tlabs.ac.za (Etienne Vermeulen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:45:58 +0200 Subject: HP 13181B Tape Interface Message-ID: <00f801cc923a$1d70c530$58524f90$@tlabs.ac.za> Hi All, I'm a nuclear scientist and serial hobbyist out in Cape Town, South Africa. I'm helping a friend restore some old HP machines. We have a 13183 Interface set to swap for a 13181B Tape Interface. We will also happily pay for it and cover the shipping costs to wherever you are. As a point of interest, we are also currently restoring a MITRA 125. If anyone has any info on this machine we'd really appreciate it. Best Regards Etienne Vermeulen and Leon Heinkelein From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Oct 24 05:47:59 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:47:59 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> References: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20111024104759.GA8406@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 08:15:47PM +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 22/10/11 17:44, Liam Proven wrote: > >How might I read a PCW floppy into a PC disk image? It's a 3.5" 720 DD > >disk. My PC does have a 3?" drive and runs Windows 7/64 and Ubuntu > >11.10/64. > Are you sure about that? I was under the impression the PCW9512 used a > 3-inch drive... EME-231 or something like that. The 9512+ had a 3.5" drive. > You probably won't be able to do this under Win7; it doesn't allow > low-level access to the disc controller. Similar story for Linux, unless > you feel like writing a driver (or patching the existing driver) to do so. In Linux, you should be able to use dd to copy the disk to an image file. There are then countless choices for extracting data from it. Alternatively you could install MSDOS in some virtualisation thing (on either Windows or Linux) and if that lets you access the floppy drive at all it will let you access the raw device using 22DISK. If you want to do it entirely for free, then Virtualbox and FreeDOS is the way to go. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic Human Rights left unattended may be removed, destroyed, or damaged by the security services. From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Oct 24 05:56:22 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:56:22 +0100 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111024105622.GB8406@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 04:53:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > How many of today's "glue black boxes together" programmers would > > even KNOW when it's appropriate, though? That's the scary part. Hmm, I don't appear to be getting all the messages in this 'ere mailing list - that one of Dave's never made it to me, for example. -- David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 24 07:24:24 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:24:24 -0400 Subject: Significance arithmetic - Re: C trivia In-Reply-To: <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA558F8.5060700@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/10/11 4:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: >> I would like to be able to: >> * mark a variable as being an approximation, and with how precise it is; > > THAT is already present. "float" in C means that it is an approximation > to 24 binary significant digits. > It does NOT, admittedly, however, tell you that any numbers that it was > based on were also only approximate. Or rather, *how much* of the value is significant. > >> * for those markers to propagate to any result that arises from a >> calculation involving that variable; > > THAT would be NICE! > > I'm curious how you would implement it. I guess that you could create a > "floatpt struct" that contains a float and an int count of how many floats > were used to create the value. That count could "approximate" how many of > the least significant bits are meaningless. That "count" wouldn't mean much. But you can track, at least through simple operations, how much of the value is significant. Compared to the agonies of C, this would be a straightforward addition to any Lisp numeric tower. The idea has been around for a while - usually named "significance arithmetic". In particular, Mathematica implements a related system (fwiw). * http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SignificanceArithmetic.html * http://www.wolfram.com/technology/guide/SignificanceArithmetic/ * http://www.mathkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/mathematica/21243/remarks-on-significance-arithmetic-implementation-Was-Re-Numerical * and some of the Usenet links I posted earlier. Steve Richfield has advocated this proposal as an important refinement of IEEE-754. --T > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 24 09:53:13 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:53:13 -0500 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:22 -0500 10/24/11, Fred wrote: >In many cases, "REAL" (actually "floating point") numbers are >inappropriate. For MONEY, I tried to get my students to use ints (and >calculate the pennies not the dollars), and then just move the PERIOD >when they display the results. How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional pennies into their own accounts? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 24 10:06:16 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:06:16 -0500 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:22 -0500 10/24/11, Tony wrote: >There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper >complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for >'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. Mathematica can do that functionality, but probably not cost-effectively and not (current versions) on legacy hardware. (Mma v. 1 is included in NeXTStep 1.0, so if you can get that optical media together with a working optical drive (good luck there!) you are set). I have not tried MathCad, Maple, macsyma, etc., and at least the last one of those is on-topic and should run on the classes of machines (VAX-11/780, etc.) that might be found around Casa Duell. I have got (but sadly have not tried yet) a copy of muMath which might be able to do it on a DEC Rainbow. muMath's successor Derive (DOS/Windows) became the basis for the TI Nspire CAS, and early versions of that might also serve in this context. Has anyone got experience with doing complex arithmetic in any of these? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 24 10:15:55 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:15:55 +0100 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional pennies into > their own accounts? If you do that you'll end up in Federal "Pound you in the Ass" prison. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 10:42:30 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:42:30 +0100 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This reminds me of the time I was the sysadmin for an accounting system and the UK VAT rules The package we used, was on an Altos 1000 386, used floats but this is allowed for in the VAT rules and one can round the VAT down to the nearest penny per invoice line or at the invoice total. We had an inspection by a green VAT inspector who decided we were up to something and sent in a heavy gun to grab a snapshot of the data (UUCP over RS232 for a long while). We were "making" ?4 ish a month due to invoice line rounding where most packages do it per invoice total. We never saw the green noob inspector again! Hooray for rounding in our favor Dave Caroline From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 24 10:58:28 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:58:28 -0600 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> References: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4EA2F50B.7090105 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > Chris M wrote: > > > > --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> Does anyone know what causes this? So far -- touch wood -- > >> I've not seen > >> it in any of my machines. And others have in the same > >> models. What am I > >> doing right? > > > > keeping them dry. It's elementary my dear Watson. > > I think at least one list member had problems even though the screens were > stored in a dry environment. I'm not sure that anyone's ever got to the > bottom of why it happens to some screens and not others :-( There's no evidence that the problem is the result of mold, fungi, or other living organisms. It is most likely chemical decomposition of the material used to fill in between the tube and the safety shield. It is probably just releasing some gas as a result of it decomposition and creating bubbles in the material. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 11:07:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA47044.36.25E7665@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA45711.4140.1FC075B@cclist.sydex.com>, <446D0C8C-5187-4AC0-BCEB-6AB973B691B4@gmail.com> <4EA47044.36.25E7665@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111024090240.X76933@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't care if the radix is 2, 10 or 13. What is normally termed > "floating point" is a slight misnomer. Agreed. What SHOULD we call it? (Something short and [over]simpler than "IEEE 32 bit floating point representation standard") > It's interesting that while some vendors seem to be intent on > dropping decimal support on CPUs, there are others proposing decimal > co-processors-- and the POWER6 and 7 CPUs have always had decimal > floating point capabilities. I will admit to sometimes using some of the BCD instructions in the 80x86 family, such as AAM, DAA, etc. 'course, other than my sales tax program, I usually use them for stuff other than BCD. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 24 11:25:32 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:25:32 +0000 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) Message-ID: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Decimal math (hardware supported) is used heavily in financial processing with IBM COBOL. No loss of precision because the type is base 10. BCD is very similar to what IBM calls "packed decimal". ------Original Message------ From: Fred Cisin Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) Sent: 24 Oct 2011 16:07 On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't care if the radix is 2, 10 or 13. What is normally termed > "floating point" is a slight misnomer. Agreed. What SHOULD we call it? (Something short and [over]simpler than "IEEE 32 bit floating point representation standard") > It's interesting that while some vendors seem to be intent on > dropping decimal support on CPUs, there are others proposing decimal > co-processors-- and the POWER6 and 7 CPUs have always had decimal > floating point capabilities. I will admit to sometimes using some of the BCD instructions in the 80x86 family, such as AAM, DAA, etc. 'course, other than my sales tax program, I usually use them for stuff other than BCD. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 11:31:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:31:58 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111024090240.X76933@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4EA47044.36.25E7665@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111024090240.X76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA5308E.24534.A6541@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2011 at 9:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I don't care if the radix is 2, 10 or 13. What is normally termed > > "floating point" is a slight misnomer. > > Agreed. > > What SHOULD we call it? (Something short and [over]simpler than "IEEE > 32 bit floating point representation standard") I call it "exponential" notation. "Scientific" notation is also fairly descriptive. FORTRAN's "real" is a convenient, if not accurate, shorthand. On an aside, does anyone remember the proposal (I don't think it went anywhere) to have the exponential part of such notation also be logarithmic? The idea was that dynamic range would be greatly increased, with greater precision in values near unity. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 11:58:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:58:44 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111024090240.X76933@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4EA47044.36.25E7665@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111024090240.X76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA536D4.25332.22E5F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2011 at 9:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > I will admit to sometimes using some of the BCD instructions in the > 80x86 family, such as AAM, DAA, etc. 'course, other than my sales tax > program, I usually use them for stuff other than BCD. It's still hard to beat COBOL for money-handling. Explicit decimal- radix storage, with variable precision called out, ROUNDED as an optional part of several arithmetic operations... I think the EU missed the boat by not denoting the fractional parts of the Euro in (negative) powers of 2. There's some cute code here on this Univac 1100-series page that we used in CDC COBOL as well for handling decimal numbers on word- addressable systems. In particular, items 5, 6, 7, 18 and 21. --Chuck (who really does like ones' complement) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 24 11:58:48 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:58:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Richard wrote: > There's no evidence that the problem is the result of mold, fungi, or > other living organisms. It is most likely chemical decomposition of > the material used to fill in between the tube and the safety shield. Exactly. > It is probably just releasing some gas as a result of it > decomposition and creating bubbles in the material. I've done the procedure of removing the shield from an HP2648 terminal, I've used the hot wire method. I can assure you that the spots are neither living organisms nor gas bubbles, you'll feel a hard resistance trying to cut through them. Those spots are hard globules, just like small plastic balls. Somehow the "silicone" (or whatever the material is) hardens and gets white, forming those spots. Perhaps there are impurities in the material that cause a crystallisation of the filler material. Christian From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 24 12:15:30 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:15:30 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <51625307-7788-4C07-819D-38046EB733B8@mac.com> References: , <51625307-7788-4C07-819D-38046EB733B8@mac.com> Message-ID: Robert, Many thanks for relating your experience. No, I'm up in Seattle, not that far away but.... For remounting, I'm thinking about the approach used by the guy who did the seven-part miniseries on YouTube. Given your experience (i.e. since you've seen the tube "naked"), do you think it would be plausible to use a double-sided adhesive around the edges, outside the visible area when the tube is mounted? We have a PDP-12 (with a clean screen) and it looks to be the same size as the 9845's screen, so your observations should be relevant. Thanks again! -- Ian ________________________________________ From: Robert Garner [robgarn at mac.com] Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 11:55 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Cc: Ian King; Al Kossow; Robert Garner; Lyle Bickley; Rod Smallwood; ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk; Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot As an alternative to the hot wire approach, I placed my moldy PDP-12 CRT+faceplate into a tub of PROSOCO Dicone NC9 "silicone sealand & adhesive remover." After about a week, the silicone seal had separated and was easily removed. I'm not sure how best to remount the CRT with the glass faceplate and metal surrounding rim without reapplying a RTV/PVA layer and re-bonding it all with silicone again. - Robert p.s. If you're in the Bay Area: there's a gallon jug of leftover Dicone NC9 for the asking. On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:34 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Message: 25 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:28:56 +0100 From: "Rod Smallwood" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > Subject: RE: HP screen screen rot Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have fixed a few Rainbow monitors suffering from screen mould. It may be crude but I just removed the outer glass by breaking it into parts and then peeled off the offending plastic layer. The tube then goes back into the case and you end up with a narrow gap between the bezel and the tube. If you are not used to working with glass and CRT's then this way is not for you Regards Rod Smallwood --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Al Kossow > wrote: From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 8:33 PM On 10/17/11 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: Hello all, Does anyone have specific experience with addressing this problem on this machine? The procedure is removal of the RTV between the safety glass and CRT separating the two by cutting through the RTV with a hot wire, then reattachment at the corners. There are some examples on the web. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 12:20:29 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:20:29 -0500 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <201110222037.p9MKatcY093984@billy.ezwind.net> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020102359.GA22998@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111020153322.G38896@shell.lmi.net> <4EA057A1.24585.199C1A4@cclist.sydex.com> <20111021123604.Y76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA2009F.5020101@neurotica.com> <20111021164505.N76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA31FE9.5020906@neurotica.com> <201110222037.p9MKatcY093984@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EA59E5D.9090702@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > Any application, no matter how stable, crashes from time to time. Well, that's perhaps true, because eventually a hardware glitch will surely take it out :-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 12:23:44 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:23:44 -0500 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA59F20.2010506@gmail.com> Richard wrote: >> I think at least one list member had problems even though the screens were >> stored in a dry environment. I'm not sure that anyone's ever got to the >> bottom of why it happens to some screens and not others :-( > > There's no evidence that the problem is the result of mold, fungi, or > other living organisms. Agreed. I mean, it typically *looks* like some form of living thing, but I don't think there's ever been any confirmation that it is. In fact, I've seen numerous screens where the 'spots' are quite far from the screen edges, so for it to be some kind of critter it would presumably have needed to be there at the point of manufacture. cheers Jules From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 24 12:19:39 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:19:39 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <1319250406.27435.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4EA2F50B.7090105@gmail.com> , Message-ID: On observation, your theory makes more sense than the idea this is organic in nature. I had the monitor apart and there is a very serious bond between the faceplate and the glass of the CRT, and it's hard to imagine mold, etc. intruding at any point, let alone all around the edge of the screen! In a private mail, someone else related using a liquid solvent to remove the silicone bonding agent, soaking the face in the liquid for about a week. I think I'll try that, rather than trying to hurt myself with a hot wire. :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti [cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de] Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 9:58 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Richard wrote: > There's no evidence that the problem is the result of mold, fungi, or > other living organisms. It is most likely chemical decomposition of > the material used to fill in between the tube and the safety shield. Exactly. > It is probably just releasing some gas as a result of it > decomposition and creating bubbles in the material. I've done the procedure of removing the shield from an HP2648 terminal, I've used the hot wire method. I can assure you that the spots are neither living organisms nor gas bubbles, you'll feel a hard resistance trying to cut through them. Those spots are hard globules, just like small plastic balls. Somehow the "silicone" (or whatever the material is) hardens and gets white, forming those spots. Perhaps there are impurities in the material that cause a crystallisation of the filler material. Christian From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 12:24:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:24:44 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4EA53CEC.8827.3AB452@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2011 at 16:25, Vintage Coder wrote: > Decimal math (hardware supported) is used heavily in financial > processing with IBM COBOL. No loss of precision because the type is > base 10. BCD is very similar to what IBM calls "packed decimal". Only COMP-3 was packed decimal; COMP-1 and COMP-2 are single- and double-precision real/floating/binary exponential. All others are usually internally integers (scaled where a point is specified) unless DISPLAY, which is kept as decimal character. Some COBOLs have other data types such as BINARY-DOUBLE, COMP-5 and explicit specifications such as PACKED-DECIMAL. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 12:32:58 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:32:58 -0500 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA5A14A.1000605@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> If one wanted real implosion protection, it might be worth >>> investigating some of the mylar window films made for the purpose of >>> containing fragments: >>> >>> http://windowfilmdepot.com/protection.htm >> That's an interesting idea! > > Indeed it is. I wonder if a CRT with the frotn glass removed, but covered > with this material would be safe? Maybe. They do say "3M Fragment Retention Security Films secure glass in place during blast, seismic, shatter or 'smash and grab' events" - so I suppose it depends on what their definition of 'blast' is. >> I wonder how critical it is to fill the gap between the CRT and faceplate >> with something, though? For the HP 250 it was a non-functional display, but >> on a working screen will there be problems if there's any air trapped in >> there (blooming or reflections off the back of the faceplate, for example) > > There might be slight reflections, but no worse than with the separate > safety glass used in 1950's TV sets. Good point. > In the case of your HP250, even thoguh you are not running it it could > still be an implosion risk without the correctl-bonded faceplate. Hmm, I wonder if it's worth worrying about - I suspect that the chance is so small that other threats are far more likely, but still... >> I don't know how the faceplates are/were normally stuck in place at >> assembly - did they apply bonding compound to the front of the CRT and then >> press the plate into it, or did they suspend the plate in front of the CRT, >> seal around the edges, then pour/inject the bonding compound into the >> resulting gap? > > ALmost certialy they applied the bonding stuff to one of the parts (which > one I can't say) and then put them together. I'm surprised there's not a risk of air pockets becoming trapped then, though. Perhaps it was done under vacuum conditions - which might make it hard to replicate in a DIY environment. I'm liking Chuck's window film suggestion more and more, because even if it can be done without trapping air, there's no guarantee that whatever substance is used won't deteriorate 5 or 10 years down the line - and I'd rather not chance whatever modern bonding stuff was used being even more difficult to remove than the original. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 12:42:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA5308E.24534.A6541@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA47044.36.25E7665@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111024090240.X76933@shell.lmi.net> <4EA5308E.24534.A6541@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111024103207.V76933@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I call it "exponential" notation. "Scientific" notation is also > fairly descriptive. FORTRAN's "real" is a convenient, if not > accurate, shorthand. convenient? YES. "not accurate"?? That is a GROSS understatement. It seriously interferes with beginning students understanding variable types. In addition to causing them to choose it inappropriately in order to avoid the "ERRORS!" of integer division, it causes some of them to get seriously hung up on "ERRORS!" when they finally discover that it is an approximation. On "integer"s, it is a STRUGGLE to get them to "revert" to "quotient"/"remainder" ("15/4 IS NOT 4.75! It is 4, REMAINDER 3"). "It was so difficult to learn "decimals"; now we need to UNLEARN it all!" On "REAL"s, it is a STRUGGLE to get them to understand that it is NOT an "ERRORS!" when an approximation is not exact. One exercise that helps a little is to make them divide 1 by 3; write down the result; TURN OFF the calculator; multiply whatever they wrote down by 3; and then EXPLAIN the "ERRORS!". From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 24 12:45:04 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:45:04 -0700 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > From: mtapley at swri.edu > > At 3:22 -0500 10/24/11, Fred wrote: > >In many cases, "REAL" (actually "floating point") numbers are > >inappropriate. For MONEY, I tried to get my students to use ints (and > >calculate the pennies not the dollars), and then just move the PERIOD > >when they display the results. > > How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional > pennies into their own accounts? > -- Hi I was done once. The guy that did it didn't understand that he was making the balance sheets come out too good. It was a flag that something was wrong and he got caught. Dwight From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 24 12:58:42 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:58:42 +0000 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA53CEC.8827.3AB452@cclist.sydex.com> References: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> <4EA53CEC.8827.3AB452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1068220963-1319479113-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283865524-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> I am aware of the various options, all I was saying is that packed decimal is heavily used for financial calculations. I believe you have to specify COMP-4 to get fixed point binary, the default USAGE is DISPLAY (for IBM) which is zoned decimal. There are no instructions to do math on zoned (display) fields, so conversions are done by the compiler if those fields are used in calculations. IBM has COMP-5 but I'm not clear from the doc what it does, although it may be more meaningful on Z since the ADDs support longer binary operands. Prior to Z it seems COMP-5 and COMP-4 would have been the same on IBM implementations. -----Original Message----- From: "Chuck Guzis" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:24:44 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) On 24 Oct 2011 at 16:25, Vintage Coder wrote: > Decimal math (hardware supported) is used heavily in financial > processing with IBM COBOL. No loss of precision because the type is > base 10. BCD is very similar to what IBM calls "packed decimal". Only COMP-3 was packed decimal; COMP-1 and COMP-2 are single- and double-precision real/floating/binary exponential. All others are usually internally integers (scaled where a point is specified) unless DISPLAY, which is kept as decimal character. Some COBOLs have other data types such as BINARY-DOUBLE, COMP-5 and explicit specifications such as PACKED-DECIMAL. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 13:03:05 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA536D4.25332.22E5F5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA47044.36.25E7665@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111024090240.X76933@shell.lmi.net> <4EA536D4.25332.22E5F5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111024104327.A76933@shell.lmi.net> > > I will admit to sometimes using some of the BCD instructions in the > > 80x86 family, such as AAM, DAA, etc. 'course, other than my sales tax > > program, I usually use them for stuff other than BCD. On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's still hard to beat COBOL for money-handling. I would not have been able to make a 4K TSR for calculating California sales tax based on ZIPCODE, using COBOL. Few people can write machine language in COBOL. When I had to write a Windoze version, size was no longer a major constraint, so I wrote it in C (scaled ints, NO "float"!), and played games with the linker/binder to make an .EXE that would run in Windoze, but would load the 4K TSR if it was launched in DOS. (Hint: using the Microsoft "examples", look at STUB.EXE) I intended, but didn't get around to, modifying it further, so that the same .EXE could also be run/loaded as a fake device driver by CONFIG.SYS to load the TSR lower in RAM to be able to be able to use INTRA-segment pointers to the BIOS data area (for easier keyboard buffer access) COBOL was tempting for the Windoze executable. My USUAL uses for the BCD arithmetic codes (DAA, AAM, etc.) are STILL mostly for decimal/ASCII, hexadecimal/ASCII conversions (without a conditional jump!). From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 13:31:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: <20111024104759.GA8406@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> <20111024104759.GA8406@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20111024112306.K76933@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > Alternatively you could install MSDOS in some virtualisation thing (on > either Windows or Linux) and if that lets you access the floppy drive at > all it will let you access the raw device using 22DISK. If you want to > do it entirely for free, then Virtualbox and FreeDOS is the way to go. While USUALLY true, and presumable in a case such as this, there do exist machines that have floppy drives that are running on their own drivers, and can even be hardware incompatible, that let you access the floppy drive, but ONLY OS access. Such machines may not let you access at all below OS, or not let you have access to WRITE below OS access, or may have what looks like Int13H access with major limitations, such as sector size, etc. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 13:31:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:31:47 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111024103207.V76933@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4EA5308E.24534.A6541@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111024103207.V76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA54CA3.4242.7817A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2011 at 10:42, Fred Cisin wrote: > On "REAL"s, it is a STRUGGLE to get them to understand that it is NOT > an "ERRORS!" when an approximation is not exact. One exercise that > helps a little is to make them divide 1 by 3; write down the result; > TURN OFF the calculator; multiply whatever they wrote down by 3; and > then EXPLAIN the "ERRORS!". Or that "arithmetic" doesn't work. a+b+b+b+b+b+b is not the same as a+6.*b and so forth. If the magnitudes of a and b are sufficiently different, the result of the first may well be a; while the second will be something other than a. Trigonometric functions are in a world of their own. Woe to the programmer that thinks that acos() always returns values with the same accuracy across the full range of arguments. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 13:31:55 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:31:55 -0400 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> On Oct 24, 2011, at 1:45 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional >> pennies into their own accounts? >> -- > > Hi > I was done once. The guy that did it didn't understand that he > was making the balance sheets come out too good. It was a flag > that something was wrong and he got caught. > Dwight Was he by any chance played by Richard Pryor? - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 13:35:05 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:35:05 -0500 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <4EA30846.5050400@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 22, 11 01:15:34 pm, Message-ID: <4EA5AFD9.3020605@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > OK, I still don't have an answer to the question I asked: has anyone > here actually done this sort of work on a HP 9845? I think people are responding to the "or another machine of the era using the same screen technology" aspect :-) Regarding re-bonding, I just used clear silicone outside the visible area (but something opaque would have worked just as well) - as I mentioned somewhere, the gap between faceplate and CRT face on the 250 was reasonably large, so I'm not sure that most adhesives would form a bead that big and stay in place. If it lasts a decade, great - the difficult part was removing the faceplate and original bonding compound; re-doing the bead around the edges wouldn't be a major maintenance chore (but I've not dismantled a 9845, perhaps they're much worse). cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 13:38:32 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Significance arithmetic - Re: C trivia In-Reply-To: <4EA558F8.5060700@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019103423.GA27959@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20111019131411.U97187@shell.lmi.net> <4EA558F8.5060700@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111024113154.S76933@shell.lmi.net> > > THAT is already present. "float" in C means that it is an approximation > > to 24 binary significant digits. > > It does NOT, admittedly, however, tell you that any numbers that it was > > based on were also only approximate. On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > Or rather, *how much* of the value is significant. We have a discrepancy in our terminology (and might be agreeing completely except for words) I am using SIGNIFICANT, ACCURATE, and CORRECT as NOT being synonymous. I maintain that you can have a value that is 24 bits SIGNIFICANTly WRONG. How do you get an insurance adjuster to understand that a decision that requires an accuracy of 10% can not be declared to be accurate based on numbers that are plus or minus 30%? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 13:38:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:38:37 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <1068220963-1319479113-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283865524-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>, <4EA53CEC.8827.3AB452@cclist.sydex.com>, <1068220963-1319479113-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283865524-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4EA54E3D.15245.7E585C@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2011 at 17:58, Vintage Coder wrote: > I am aware of the various options, all I was saying is that packed > decimal is heavily used for financial calculations. I believe you have > to specify COMP-4 to get fixed point binary, the default USAGE is > DISPLAY (for IBM) which is zoned decimal. There are no instructions to > do math on zoned (display) fields, so conversions are done by the > compiler if those fields are used in calculations. Who needs zoned instructions? We did display arithmetic the CDC machines in display code using ordinary binary primitives (see my post on Univac "tricks"). And we didn't have character addressability. During my tenure at CDC, the 6000 series machines running COBOL consistently beat the IBM high-end iron on benchmarks, in spite of the IBM sales team telling customers that CDC made FORTRAN machines. A fast CPU is generally a fast CPU for any language. You don't need lots of specialized instructions. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 14:11:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <20111024120852.T76933@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Vintage Coder wrote: > Decimal math (hardware supported) is used heavily in financial > processing with IBM COBOL. No loss of precision because the type is base > 10. BCD is very similar to what IBM calls "packed decimal". Although with a radix of 10, which MAKES SENSE for financial, I still think of that as being scaled integers. It is not an exponential structure like the IEEE Floating Point Representation Standard. From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 24 14:19:13 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:19:13 +0000 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) Message-ID: <2126932127-1319483944-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1985509220-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Agreed. It's not floating point (no mantissa/exponent) and the user has complete control over the decimal point, which is imaginary as far as the representation goes. There is no decimal point in the data, only digits and a sign. The name "packed decimal" seems like a safe way to differentiate it from floating point while giving a hint to the internal representation (two digits to a byte). ------Original Message------ From: Fred Cisin Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) Sent: 24 Oct 2011 19:11 On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Vintage Coder wrote: > Decimal math (hardware supported) is used heavily in financial > processing with IBM COBOL. No loss of precision because the type is base > 10. BCD is very similar to what IBM calls "packed decimal". Although with a radix of 10, which MAKES SENSE for financial, I still think of that as being scaled integers. It is not an exponential structure like the IEEE Floating Point Representation Standard. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 14:21:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> References: , <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> > >> How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional > >> pennies into their own accounts? > > I was done once. The guy that did it didn't understand that he > > was making the balance sheets come out too good. It was a flag > > that something was wrong and he got caught. On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, David Riley wrote: > Was he by any chance played by Richard Pryor? It has been done MANY times. Some real incidents, and some urban legends. Usually the miscreant is caught due to failing to realize how rapidly the "receiving" account will grow. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 14:38:42 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <2126932127-1319483944-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1985509220-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <2126932127-1319483944-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1985509220-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <20111024123253.H76933@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Vintage Coder wrote: > Agreed. It's not floating point (no mantissa/exponent) and the user has > complete control over the decimal point, which is imaginary as far as > the representation goes. There is no decimal point in the data, only > digits and a sign. The name "packed decimal" seems like a safe way to > differentiate it from floating point while giving a hint to the internal > representation (two digits to a byte). As most everyohne here knows, the 80x85 family has some minimal support for both packed and unpacked BCD. But the lack of a widely known data type using those in C and BASIC results in way too much software being written with inappropriate data types, such as "float". From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 24 14:51:15 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:51:15 -0700 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> References: , , , , <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: fraveydank at gmail.com > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 1:45 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > >> How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional > >> pennies into their own accounts? > >> -- > > > > Hi > > I was done once. The guy that did it didn't understand that he > > was making the balance sheets come out too good. It was a flag > > that something was wrong and he got caught. > > Dwight > > Was he by any chance played by Richard Pryor? > > - Dave > Long before the movie. Dwight From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 14:57:14 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> References: , <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional >>>> pennies into their own accounts? >>> I was done once. The guy that did it didn't understand that he >>> was making the balance sheets come out too good. It was a flag >>> that something was wrong and he got caught. > On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, David Riley wrote: >> Was he by any chance played by Richard Pryor? > > It has been done MANY times. Some real incidents, and some urban legends. > > Usually the miscreant is caught due to failing to realize how rapidly the > "receiving" account will grow. Where's my red Swingline stapler? (Hope everyone knows the reference) -- From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 24 15:01:13 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:01:13 +0000 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) Message-ID: <212493079-1319486464-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-924682391-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> The same thing can happen in COBOL. All the guys when I started on IBM knew the native data types and which ones to use for what. A few years ago somebody asked me to give a training session to some guys who had 2 to 8 years with COBOL on IBM and nobody in the room (about 15 people) had any idea about anything, not one of them ever opened an IBM manual. Lucky for them and their employer, they never actually wrote any code, they just cut and pasted and were using packed decimal for money. ------Original Message------ From: Fred Cisin Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) Sent: 24 Oct 2011 19:38 On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Vintage Coder wrote: > Agreed. It's not floating point (no mantissa/exponent) and the user has > complete control over the decimal point, which is imaginary as far as > the representation goes. There is no decimal point in the data, only > digits and a sign. The name "packed decimal" seems like a safe way to > differentiate it from floating point while giving a hint to the internal > representation (two digits to a byte). As most everyohne here knows, the 80x85 family has some minimal support for both packed and unpacked BCD. But the lack of a widely known data type using those in C and BASIC results in way too much software being written with inappropriate data types, such as "float". From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 24 15:10:15 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: from Steven Hirsch at "Oct 24, 11 03:57:14 pm" Message-ID: <201110242010.p9OKAFOx012686@floodgap.com> > Where's my red Swingline stapler? Somebody get the Bobs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- With a rubber duck, one's never alone. -- Douglas Adams, "HGTTG" ----------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 24 15:11:10 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: References: , <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>>> How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional >>>>> pennies into their own accounts? >>>> I was done once. The guy that did it didn't understand that he >>>> was making the balance sheets come out too good. It was a flag >>>> that something was wrong and he got caught. >> On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, David Riley wrote: >>> Was he by any chance played by Richard Pryor? >> >> It has been done MANY times. Some real incidents, and some urban legends. >> >> Usually the miscreant is caught due to failing to realize how rapidly the >> "receiving" account will grow. > > Where's my red Swingline stapler? > It's stuck between your Desk Flair and the TPS Reports.... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 15:53:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:53:58 -0700 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111024120852.T76933@shell.lmi.net> References: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>, <20111024120852.T76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA56DF6.7066.FA4239@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2011 at 12:11, Fred Cisin wrote: > Although with a radix of 10, which MAKES SENSE for financial, I still > think of that as being scaled integers. It is not an exponential > structure like the IEEE Floating Point Representation Standard. ...and there's always CBASIC, PASCAL/M, SuperCalc, etc. There was a mindset (seems to have largely faded) that a program was no good for finance unless it could boast decimal computation. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 24 15:55:26 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:55:26 -0700 Subject: John McCarthy Message-ID: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> We just heard over at CHM that John died last night. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Oct 24 16:11:29 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:11:29 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <06e101cc9291$7ff11140$7fd333c0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > We just heard over at CHM that John died last night. > May he rest in peace. ))))))))) From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 24 16:11:42 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:11:42 -0700 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Losing good ones lately :( On 10/24/11 1:55 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > We just heard over at CHM that John died last night. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 24 16:13:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:13:46 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4EA5D50A.2090900@neurotica.com> On 10/24/2011 04:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > We just heard over at CHM that John died last night. More terrible news. We keep losing Important ones. RIP, John McCarthy. Thank you for the great work you did. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:21:25 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:21:25 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B07DB01-05AA-4DF0-886A-560C1065F9D0@gmail.com> On Oct 24, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > We just heard over at CHM that John died last night. Gah, another one? Chuck Moore better be keeping himself healthy. Sad today. ) - Dave From db at db.net Mon Oct 24 16:25:32 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:25:32 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20111024212532.GA71241@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 01:55:26PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > We just heard over at CHM that John died last night. Still seeing confusion about whether this is confirmed here. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3151233 > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:27:12 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:27:12 +0200 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I saw him in Paris in 1984 or so... :NIL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 24 16:29:36 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:29:36 +0100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) References: <4EA0465A.5090702@otter.se> Message-ID: <004a01cc9294$44ca3760$70fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonas Otter" To: Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:03 PM Subject: Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:42:03 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) wrote: > > Did/does any spreadsheet, on any platform, allow you to put complex > > numbers in the cells and operate on them? > > > > Yes, of course you can treat a complex numner as 2 real numbers and > > define the appropriate operations -- any spreadsheet will do that. I did > > it in Visicalc. But as I use complex numbers a lot in AC circuit > > analysis, and I know others who do too, I am suprised no spreadsheet > > handles them as well as my HP calculators. > > Surprise surprise, apparently Excel will let you work with complex > numbers. It seems you have to install the "Analysis Pak" (which > apparently is supplied with Excel, see e.g. > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/load-the-analysis-toolpak-HP001127724.aspx > for the 2003 version). > > That of course doesn't mean that it handles them as well as your HP > calculators :-) > > /Jonas Yes, the analysis pak allows you to install extra features - you choose which. I had to use it to be able to do ANOVA (analysis of variance) stuff once. I don't see the point of having it seperate and having to install the bits you want. Why not just have an extra drop down menu for advanced maths, than hide them away from users? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 15:01:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:01:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <62EE7742-23F1-4120-95D9-76F325290E30@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Oct 23, 11 06:01:09 pm Message-ID: > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 3:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > And then there are the FPGA designers who design like this : THey'll > > enter a scheamtic in the schematic capture program and simulate it. It > > doens't work so they say things like 'let's invert that signal and see if > > that helps. OK, it didn't, what happes if we change that AND to an OR?' > > No real method, no logic to what they are doing. I've met them... > > Oh lord, and then there's the ones who make a pipelined structure, but > can't be bothered to figure out when a timing-sensitive signal is > actually supposed to happen, so they just make a giant delay chain or Exactly!. At least with FPGAs thay can't (easily) use analogue monostable circuits. This sort of designer let loose on TTL will thow '123s everywhere without realising that if the timing components drift the signals can change in the wrong order. > And going back to circuit design, let's not forget the folks who put > zener ESD protection on everything, including the input ferrite beads! At least they ddin't put ferrite beads on the leads of the protection zenrs, thus ensuring said zeners cna't catch a fast spike. I guess this is the sort of person who puts a fuse in series with the anode of a crowbvar SCR to protect it. Yes I did seee that one once, I commented _before_ it got built, fortunately. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 15:08:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:08:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Kaypro-II video section In-Reply-To: <000001cc91cf$ad49bb50$07dd31f0$@it> from "Enrico Lazzerini" at Oct 24, 11 00:04:01 am Message-ID: > > The computer-Kaypro II had a 9" green phosphor monochrome monitor composed > > of a LR30477 E39164 TOSHIBA CRT and a printed circuit steering Toshiba > > TLC-134-TV-0. I tried to supply it with 12Vdc and I noticed that the > > cathode of the CRT is lit, while the screen does not turns on and no shows > > light even using the knob back adjustment for the light intensity. > > Wishing to do TV repair technician I need the wiring diagram of the circuit > > electric drive Toshiba TLC-134-T-V-0. Is there someone who has it? > > > > Here some pictures: > > http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2026.html > > http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2018.html > > > http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2019.html > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/67772736 at N07/sets/72157627837488485/ > > . > > Unfortunately I did not notice on the board (component side) or under the > > card (solder side) no sign of burning. I seem to hear at the power on of > > the CRT an high-frequency hiss. Having found the power supply of the > > Kaypro-II not working and not knowing whether it is the motherboard, I was > > first trying to see if the CRT works. As a signal source I am using the > > monochrome output of a PC 8088 XT video card because the kaypro-II accepts > > distinct signals: video, Hsync and Vsync. It could be not true that the > > polarities of these signals are useful as a signal generator to test the > > video section of Kaypro-II. I would go back ot using the Kaypro 2 motherboard as the signal source (since we know that configuration can work).but check to see if it's producing suitable signals. Use a 'scope to look at the VSync, HSync and video signals between the motherboard and the monitor section and see if they look sensible. Assuming they do. I would then measure the CRT pin voltages. Most small monitors use a 7 pin (modified B7G based) CRT with a pinout like this : 1 : Control Grid (Could be +ve or -ve with repect to ground, but a few 10's of votls at most) 2 : Cathode (expect about +80V here) 3) Heater. One of these pins wll most likely be groudned, the other will 4) have about 12V on it 5) Control grid (same as pin 1) 6) First anode (accelerator). + A few hundred V 7) THrid anode (focus). + A few hundred V again. If you have an EHT meter, check the votlage on the final anode, expect about 12kV there. Often you find all the high votlages are missing, which suggests a problem wit hthe horizontal output stage/flyback transformer -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 14:44:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:44:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <20111023132201.M47652@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 23, 11 01:25:33 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper > > complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for > > 'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. > > In many cases, "REAL" (actually "floating point") numbers are > inappropriate. For MONEY, I tried to get my students to use ints (and > calculate the pennies not the dollars), and then just move the PERIOD > when they display the results. I absolutely agree with you. I should have used clearer wording last night, I was using the term 'real numbers' in the mathematical rather htan computing sesne (real, as opposed to complex, numbers, the integers are of course a subset of the reals), Although IIRC some compound interest calculations require you to work to an accuracy of better than 1 penny/cent. Actually, I rarely use the term 'real number' to mean 'floating point number'. In hardware you always talk aboput a 'floating point coprocessor' (never a 'real number coprocessor'). The high level language I used the most at the moment is C, which of course declares such variables with the 'float' keyword. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 15:12:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:12:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <6646EBEE-CDE2-4CF0-ADD5-B5433453C594@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Oct 23, 11 07:25:48 pm Message-ID: > Which is part of why VisiCalc appeared on the Apple II first; the 6502 > had a built-in "decimal" mode which did the calculations in BCD, which Yes, but the Z80 has the DAA instruciton (Decimal Adjust Accumulator) which provides similar functionality. > was a huge boon for business calculations. I seem to recall the full > POWER instruction set (not the subset used on PowerPC) has a number of > decimal operations as well. I think the HP custom processor used in the 9845 does too. THe high-speec language processor option of this machine uses 2901 bit slice chips, but there are also some BCD adders on one of the boards, presumably for decimal instructions. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 15:36:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:36:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Howlers, was C trivia, was Dennis Ritchie... In-Reply-To: <4EA486EF.12268.2B702E9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 23, 11 09:28:15 pm Message-ID: > In this case, "regularly" means "last recompiled in 2008". Those > damned file dates! Please don't confuse 'regularly' with 'frequently'. A program which is recompiled on 1st Feb xxxx3 (for all x) is being recomiled regularly (once every 10 years). A program which is recompiled when a serious bug is found and correctly may be compiled a couple of times in a week, then nothign for a few months, then 3 more recompiles in as many days, and so on. That's not 'regularly' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 15:42:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:42:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Oct 23, 11 11:51:53 pm Message-ID: > > OK, I still don't have an answer to the question I asked: has anyone > here actually done this sort of work on a HP 9845? I opened up the > monitor, but the part number for the CRT wasn't in evidence. Given the > orientation of the tube, I think it's going to take major disassembly to > find that, to see if I can get a reasonable replacement if that's the A lot of HP machines make it easy to get the CRT out (the 9836C is particualrly nice in this respect!). I have the 9845B with the enhanced mono monitor and from what I remmember, you take the top off the monitor and the top shield under it, then slide the front bezel up and out (disconnect the function key cable), take out all the plug-in PCBs (including the heatsink unit), Unplug the anode cap and base conenctor, put the thing face up and take out the CRT moutings. Alas I have no idea how the 'simple' monitor goes together. > route I choose to go. If possible, I'd like to have my action plan in > place before I tear it down to bare bones, so I can get the job done and > reassemble things before I forget where they go. > > I've been playing with other aspects of the device and it's all sorts > of fun. I did some simple graphing, which is delightfully > straightforward. Something I read suggested an experiment, and I > discovered that it is in fact possible to make changes to > a program *while it is running." For instance, I did a simple PRINT > "HELLO" loop and while it was running changed the line to PRINT > "GOODBYE". The output promptly changed when I stored the new line. I I beleive this was known as 'live keyboard mode' and is very nice. Very few other machines let you do things like that. > also learned that the capstan rollers in the tape drives are, > predictably, mush, and I have a DC100 tape cartridge to clean out. -- Ian They're the same drives (exaclty) as are used in the 9815 and 9825 machines, so looking at repair methods for those might help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 16:26:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:26:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EA5A14A.1000605@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 24, 11 12:32:58 pm Message-ID: > > In the case of your HP250, even thoguh you are not running it it could > > still be an implosion risk without the correctl-bonded faceplate. > > Hmm, I wonder if it's worth worrying about - I suspect that the chance is > so small that other threats are far more likely, but still... The risk of a CRT imploding is small anyway (has anyone here ever seen it ahppen spontanuously -- hitting a CRT with a hammer or simialr doens't count ;-), but it's serious enough that manufactuers bother about it. My guess is that with the second layer of glass you're safe _but_ if anything happens and a visitor to the museum gets showered in glass I think you might end up in court. These days idiots sue for totally stupid reasons. It's up to you... > > >> I don't know how the faceplates are/were normally stuck in place at > >> assembly - did they apply bonding compound to the front of the CRT and then > >> press the plate into it, or did they suspend the plate in front of the CRT, > >> seal around the edges, then pour/inject the bonding compound into the > >> resulting gap? > > > > ALmost certialy they applied the bonding stuff to one of the parts (which > > one I can't say) and then put them together. > > I'm surprised there's not a risk of air pockets becoming trapped then, > though. Perhaps it was done under vacuum conditions - which might make it > hard to replicate in a DIY environment. I can't beleive it's any worse than bonding lens elements together. > > I'm liking Chuck's window film suggestion more and more, because even if it > can be done without trapping air, there's no guarantee that whatever So do I. And I think it would be safe. My father worked on high vacuum systems for many years and he says that putting ordinary sticky tpe on the outside will support the glass sufficiently to prevent a violent implosion. It's prevent the bits flyign too far. Obviosuly you don't want a CRT screen covered with sellotape, but I would guess this window film would be enough. > substance is used won't deteriorate 5 or 10 years down the line - and I'd > rather not chance whatever modern bonding stuff was used being even more > difficult to remove than the original. Good point. There appear to be some nice UV-curing adhesives used for assmebling lens elements, but unlike the old Canada Balsam, they're impossible to shift. I don't think I'd want to have my CRT reassembled in a way that I couldn't fix it again if need be. -tony From snowen at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 17:18:48 2011 From: snowen at gmail.com (Simon Owen) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:18:48 +0100 Subject: Reading Amstrad PCW floppies on a PC In-Reply-To: <20111024104759.GA8406@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4EA31663.1080308@philpem.me.uk> <20111024104759.GA8406@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:47 AM, David Cantrell wrote: > Alternatively you could install MSDOS in some virtualisation thing (on > either Windows or Linux) and if that lets you access the floppy drive at > all it will let you access the raw device using 22DISK. If you want to > do it entirely for free, then Virtualbox and FreeDOS is the way to go. You'd be lucky to find a virtualisation setup that supports the required level of I/O and DMA access to drive the FDC natively. It's much better to stick to native tools on your OS of choice. He's already got Windows 7 and my Windows utility and driver are free. They can handle PC-compatible disks at least as well as Teledisk, so dumping a PCW image shouldn't be a problem. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 24 17:25:26 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:25:26 -0400 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA5E5D6.3080800@telegraphics.com.au> On 24/10/11 3:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>> There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper >>> complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for >>> 'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. >> >> In many cases, "REAL" (actually "floating point") numbers are >> inappropriate. For MONEY, I tried to get my students to use ints (and >> calculate the pennies not the dollars), and then just move the PERIOD >> when they display the results. > > I absolutely agree with you. I should have used clearer wording last > night, I was using the term 'real numbers' in the mathematical rather > htan computing sesne (real, as opposed to complex, numbers, the integers > are of course a subset of the reals), > > Although IIRC some compound interest calculations require you to work to > an accuracy of better than 1 penny/cent. Yes, it is necessary for many calculations that are not mere sums. > > Actually, I rarely use the term 'real number' to mean 'floating point > number'. In hardware you always talk aboput a 'floating point > coprocessor' (never a 'real number coprocessor'). The high level language > I used the most at the moment is C, which of course declares such > variables with the 'float' keyword. Or double. --T > > -tony > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 24 17:28:24 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:28:24 -0700 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4EA5E688.50905@jwsss.com> From a friend who took his lisp course: (cons (cons R I) P) On 10/24/2011 2:27 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > I saw him in Paris in 1984 or so... :NIL > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 24 17:29:42 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:29:42 -0400 Subject: Mathematica/NeXT - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA5E6D6.1000300@telegraphics.com.au> On 24/10/11 11:06 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 3:22 -0500 10/24/11, Tony wrote: >> There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper >> complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for >> 'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. > > Mathematica can do that functionality, but probably not cost-effectively > and not (current versions) on legacy hardware. (Mma v. 1 is included in > NeXTStep 1.0, so if you can get that optical media together with a > working optical drive (good luck there!) you are set). You can run Mathematica on a NeXT without any optical drive or media (I have a licence & have done so, on a slab). However I would like to track down Adobe Illustrator for NEXTSTEP. --T > I have not tried MathCad, Maple, macsyma, etc., and at least the last > one of those is on-topic and should run on the classes of machines > (VAX-11/780, etc.) that might be found around Casa Duell. > I have got (but sadly have not tried yet) a copy of muMath which might > be able to do it on a DEC Rainbow. > muMath's successor Derive (DOS/Windows) became the basis for the TI > Nspire CAS, and early versions of that might also serve in this context. > > Has anyone got experience with doing complex arithmetic in any of these? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 24 17:52:34 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:52:34 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA5E688.50905@jwsss.com> References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> <4EA5E688.50905@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4EA5EC32.1070901@telegraphics.com.au> On 24/10/11 6:28 PM, jim s wrote: > From a friend who took his lisp course: > > (cons (cons R I) P) That's not a list; ityfm (in Scheme dialect): (cons 'R (cons 'I (cons 'P '()))) > > On 10/24/2011 2:27 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> I saw him in Paris in 1984 or so... :NIL >> >> > From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 24 18:28:19 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:28:19 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was referring to holding the faceplate on the CRT, not supporting the CRT. I plan to replace the metal band, padding with e.g. strapping tape if necessary. Does that make more sense? - Ian Just thumb it! - sent from my Blackberry electronic leash ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Garner [mailto:robgarn at mac.com] Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 02:44 PM To: Ian King Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org ; Al Kossow ; Lyle Bickley ; Rod Smallwood ; ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ; Chuck Guzis ; Robert Garner Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot Ian, For doubled-sided adhesive to work, it would have to be fairly thick, ~4 mm, and very strong to support the CRT weight. Since it may not be strong enough (esp during a truck ride), perhaps I'll need a frame cage that supports the CRT in some robust way. I should open some of my old monitors to see how it's been done... Robert Sent from my iPhone On Oct 24, 2011, at 10:15 AM, Ian King wrote: > Robert, > > Many thanks for relating your experience. No, I'm up in Seattle, not that far away but.... > > For remounting, I'm thinking about the approach used by the guy who did the seven-part miniseries on YouTube. Given your experience (i.e. since you've seen the tube "naked"), do you think it would be plausible to use a double-sided adhesive around the edges, outside the visible area when the tube is mounted? We have a PDP-12 (with a clean screen) and it looks to be the same size as the 9845's screen, so your observations should be relevant. > > Thanks again! -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: Robert Garner [robgarn at mac.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 11:55 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Cc: Ian King; Al Kossow; Robert Garner; Lyle Bickley; Rod Smallwood; ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk; Chuck Guzis > Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > > As an alternative to the hot wire approach, I placed my moldy PDP-12 CRT+faceplate > into a tub of PROSOCO Dicone NC9 "silicone sealand & adhesive remover." > After about a week, the silicone seal had separated and was easily removed. > > I'm not sure how best to remount the CRT with the glass faceplate and metal surrounding rim > without reapplying a RTV/PVA layer and re-bonding it all with silicone again. > > - Robert > > p.s. If you're in the Bay Area: there's a gallon jug of leftover Dicone NC9 for the asking. > > On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:34 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 25 > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:28:56 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > > > Subject: RE: HP screen screen rot > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have fixed a few Rainbow monitors suffering from screen mould. > It may be crude but I just removed the outer glass by breaking it into parts > and then peeled off the offending plastic layer. > > The tube then goes back into the case and you end up with a narrow gap > between the bezel and the tube. > > If you are not used to working with glass and CRT's then this way is not for > you > > > Regards > Rod Smallwood > --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Al Kossow > wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 8:33 PM > On 10/17/11 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: > Hello all, > > Does anyone have specific experience with addressing > this problem on this machine? > > The procedure is removal of the RTV between the safety > glass and CRT separating the two by > cutting through the RTV with a hot wire, then reattachment > at the corners. > > There are some examples on the web. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Oct 24 20:42:16 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:42:16 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Outlook in comparison - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: <20111021120012.T76607@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111021120012.T76607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA613F8.6070200@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >I am changing my opinion on Outlook. > >I just experienced the State Farm Insurance "Secure Messaging Center". >In comparison, Outhouse is MAGNIFICENT! > >For example, the State Farm system will not permit cc'ing an email address >outside of their system (my own!). What's so frigging secret about an >insurance claim?? > >The State Farm system times out after 15 minutes while composing a >message. When it times out, there is NO warning. No "1 minute until >doom". No "want to extend/continue?". No "want to save?" No automatic >save of compositions in progress! Their "systems programmers" have told >them that their hands are tied, and that it isn't possible to implement >those "features"! > > >When I first started using PINE, I wasn't completely satisfied. But each >"Modern" system that I've tried has made me appreciate it more. And this >State Farm system makes Outhouse look good. > > I have been using Netscape 7.2 for about 10 years and Netscape 4.? before that. I still find it has more features and works better than Outlook. How does PINE compare to Netscape 7.2 and would I be able to retain my mountain (over 100,000) of e-mails and Usenet posts? Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Oct 24 20:55:36 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:55:36 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4EA61718.7070502@compsys.to> >Liam Proven wrote: >>On 21 October 2011 04:58, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>At the risk if being naive, perhaps this list could use a bit of inspiration >>- >>to see if we could help the discussion to be more useful. >> >>There is a book written by Michael Kahn: "The TAO of Conversation". >> >>The primary point is that in an idea conversation, there can never be >>an opinion which is right or wrong. Attempting to support an opinion >>helps us to understand the opinion even if we totally disagree with that >>opinion. >> >>While I agree with both of the opinions of Dave McGuire and Liam Proven, >>it seems difficult to figure out exactly which is more useful because they >>seem so angry at each other. >> >I only noticed this in a subsequent quote today. > >I was irritated, yes, but I was trying /very/ hard to be calm, polite >and reasonable. I was the one getting abused, not dispensing it. > > That much was obvious. The question is why you became irritated! >>We could use a bit of "Barn Raising". >> >What does that mean? > > Read the source (the book) Luke (Liam), read the source. There is much more behind the concepts in the book, but they are a good start. After reading for more than 36 years, I am just beginning to understand myself. I also used to be irritated (still am sometimes - and I also react without thinking some of the time), so it is now easy to recognize those events even easier in others as opposed to myself. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Oct 24 20:57:10 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:57:10 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, In-Reply-To: <4EA33D42.3090400@neurotica.com> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> <4EA33D42.3090400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA61776.3080102@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On 10/22/2011 05:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I was irritated, yes, but I was trying /very/ hard to be calm, polite >> and reasonable. I was the one getting abused, not dispensing it. > > Not from my point of view. Both of you would benefit from reading the book. And I will benefit from reading it again. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Oct 24 20:59:55 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:59:55 -0400 Subject: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4EA6181B.8030109@compsys.to> >Liam Proven wrote: >>On 21 October 2011 04:58, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>At the risk if being naive, perhaps this list could use a bit of inspiration >>- >>to see if we could help the discussion to be more useful. >> >>There is a book written by Michael Kahn: "The TAO of Conversation". >> >>The primary point is that in an idea conversation, there can never be >>an opinion which is right or wrong. Attempting to support an opinion >>helps us to understand the opinion even if we totally disagree with that >>opinion. >> >>While I agree with both of the opinions of Dave McGuire and Liam Proven, >>it seems difficult to figure out exactly which is more useful because they >>seem so angry at each other. >> >I only noticed this in a subsequent quote today. > >I was irritated, yes, but I was trying /very/ hard to be calm, polite >and reasonable. I was the one getting abused, not dispensing it. > > I still forget to remove the [SPAM] reference in the Subject - sorry. That much was obvious. The question is why you became irritated! >>We could use a bit of "Barn Raising". >> >What does that mean? > Read the source (the book) Luke (Liam), read the source. There is much more behind the concepts in the book, but they are a good start. After reading for more than 36 years, I am just beginning to understand myself. I also used to be irritated (still am sometimes - and I also react without thinking some of the time), so it is now easy to recognize those events even easier in others as opposed to myself. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Oct 24 20:02:12 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:02:12 -0400 Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: References: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA60A94.9060707@compsys.to> >Adrian Stoness wrote: >what would the shipping to canada be on one of those be? > >winnipeg manitoba canada r2w 3l5 > > How much would it cost from Toronto? I have a few BA23 boxes which I will need to pass along one of these years. Are you ever in Toronto? Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Oct 24 20:16:59 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:16:59 -0400 Subject: Outlook in comparison In-Reply-To: <20111021120012.T76607@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111021120012.T76607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA60E0B.3070300@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >I am changing my opinion on Outlook. > >I just experienced the State Farm Insurance "Secure Messaging Center". >In comparison, Outhouse is MAGNIFICENT! > >For example, the State Farm system will not permit cc'ing an email address >outside of their system (my own!). What's so frigging secret about an >insurance claim?? > >The State Farm system times out after 15 minutes while composing a >message. When it times out, there is NO warning. No "1 minute until >doom". No "want to extend/continue?". No "want to save?" No automatic >save of compositions in progress! Their "systems programmers" have told >them that their hands are tied, and that it isn't possible to implement >those "features"! > > >When I first started using PINE, I wasn't completely satisfied. But each >"Modern" system that I've tried has made me appreciate it more. And this >State Farm system makes Outhouse look good. > I have been using Netscape 7.2 for about 10 years and Netscape 4.? before that. I still find it has more features and works better than Outlook. How does PINE compare to Netscape 7.2 and would I be able to retain my mountain (over 100,000) of e-mails and Usenet posts? Jerome Fine From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 20:55:12 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:55:12 -0500 Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: <4EA60A94.9060707@compsys.to> References: <1319284459.88860.YahooMailNeo@web65914.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4EA60A94.9060707@compsys.to> Message-ID: nope out in winnipeg http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6193187235/in/photostream/lightbox/ might be able to send one out on the greyhound? just been to the scareport when i was 9 On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Adrian Stoness wrote: > > what would the shipping to canada be on one of those be? >> >> winnipeg manitoba canada r2w 3l5 >> >> > How much would it cost from Toronto? > > I have a few BA23 boxes which I will need to pass along > one of these years. > > Are you ever in Toronto? > > Jerome Fine > From neko at nekochan.net Mon Oct 24 22:24:02 2011 From: neko at nekochan.net (Pete Plank) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:24:02 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: , <51625307-7788-4C07-819D-38046EB733B8@mac.com> Message-ID: <593DB2FC-FAEC-4EEF-9DC0-6EA3B9A51018@nekochan.net> On Oct 24, 2011, at 10:15 AM, Ian King wrote: > For remounting, I'm thinking about the approach used by the guy who did the seven-part miniseries on YouTube. Given your experience (i.e. since you've seen the tube "naked"), do you think it would be plausible to use a double-sided adhesive around the edges, outside the visible area when the tube is mounted? We have a PDP-12 (with a clean screen) and it looks to be the same size as the 9845's screen, so your observations should be relevant. I used that same series of videos to restore a ADM-3A terminal a couple years ago. It wasn't difficult to perform (it took less than an hour from start to finish). I posted some photos/info on the process on my blog at the time as well. Pictures showing screen "rot": http://www.nekochan.net/weblog/archives/2008/09/lear-siegler-ad.html Restoration process pictures/description: http://www.nekochan.net/weblog/archives/2008/10/adm-3a-screen-r.html - Pete From spedraja at ono.com Tue Oct 25 02:03:50 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:03:50 +0200 Subject: John McCarthy (LISP) has died Message-ID: John McCarthy has died. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/24/father_lisp_ai_john_mccarthy_dies/ SPc. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 17:31:35 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319495495.64067.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/24/11, Richard wrote: > There's no evidence that the problem is the result of mold, > fungi, or > other living organisms.? It is most likely chemical > decomposition of > the material used to fill in between the tube and the > safety shield. > It is probably just releasing some gas as a result of it > decomposition and creating bubbles in the material. It sure looks like mold though. I certainly can't give the final word, but my original monitor didn't exhibit any mold/stain/?. After, like a fool, I stored it in a less then moisture tight shed for a time (can't remember, maybe 3-4 years), sho' 'nuf, it molded? up. The 2 I obtained around a year ago came w/the mold? - no extra charge. They were used in a medical environment, then were in this guy's basement for who knows how long. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 17:34:21 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319495661.32417.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/24/11, Christian Corti wrote: Those spots are hard globules, just like small plastic > balls. Somehow the "silicone" (or whatever the material is) > hardens and gets white, forming those spots. but what I'm talking about is the darkest green imaginable, or perhaps black that is tainted by the green phosphors. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 17:46:00 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319496360.66022.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/24/11, Tony Duell wrote: > The risk of a CRT imploding is small anyway (has anyone > here ever seen it > ahppen spontanuously -- hitting a CRT with a hammer or > simialr doens't > count ;-), what about throwing a rock at a crt's face? Does that count? I did this once a long time ago, w/some terminals I bought from a library. I hadn't blossomed into a vintage collector yet, the stuff was just junk back then, so I took at least one of them outside and proceeded to smash it. I was young (maybe 25), and must have been very bored. All I noticed was that the rock, which was something of an odd shape, between 1.5 and 2.5 inches depending on how you measured it, was split in half. Is it possible the implosion split the rock? That's an on topic question, isn't it? From robgarn at mac.com Mon Oct 24 16:44:16 2011 From: robgarn at mac.com (Robert Garner) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:44:16 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <51625307-7788-4C07-819D-38046EB733B8@mac.com> Message-ID: Ian, For doubled-sided adhesive to work, it would have to be fairly thick, ~4 mm, and very strong to support the CRT weight. Since it may not be strong enough (esp during a truck ride), perhaps I'll need a frame cage that supports the CRT in some robust way. I should open some of my old monitors to see how it's been done... Robert Sent from my iPhone On Oct 24, 2011, at 10:15 AM, Ian King wrote: > Robert, > > Many thanks for relating your experience. No, I'm up in Seattle, not that far away but.... > > For remounting, I'm thinking about the approach used by the guy who did the seven-part miniseries on YouTube. Given your experience (i.e. since you've seen the tube "naked"), do you think it would be plausible to use a double-sided adhesive around the edges, outside the visible area when the tube is mounted? We have a PDP-12 (with a clean screen) and it looks to be the same size as the 9845's screen, so your observations should be relevant. > > Thanks again! -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: Robert Garner [robgarn at mac.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 11:55 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Cc: Ian King; Al Kossow; Robert Garner; Lyle Bickley; Rod Smallwood; ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk; Chuck Guzis > Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > > As an alternative to the hot wire approach, I placed my moldy PDP-12 CRT+faceplate > into a tub of PROSOCO Dicone NC9 "silicone sealand & adhesive remover." > After about a week, the silicone seal had separated and was easily removed. > > I'm not sure how best to remount the CRT with the glass faceplate and metal surrounding rim > without reapplying a RTV/PVA layer and re-bonding it all with silicone again. > > - Robert > > p.s. If you're in the Bay Area: there's a gallon jug of leftover Dicone NC9 for the asking. > > On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:34 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 25 > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:28:56 +0100 > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > > > Subject: RE: HP screen screen rot > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have fixed a few Rainbow monitors suffering from screen mould. > It may be crude but I just removed the outer glass by breaking it into parts > and then peeled off the offending plastic layer. > > The tube then goes back into the case and you end up with a narrow gap > between the bezel and the tube. > > If you are not used to working with glass and CRT's then this way is not for > you > > > Regards > Rod Smallwood > --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Al Kossow > wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 8:33 PM > On 10/17/11 5:06 PM, Ian King wrote: > Hello all, > > Does anyone have specific experience with addressing > this problem on this machine? > > The procedure is removal of the RTV between the safety > glass and CRT separating the two by > cutting through the RTV with a hot wire, then reattachment > at the corners. > > There are some examples on the web. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 19:49:26 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: moving IBM Sys 23/Datamaster, Atari stuff, other... Message-ID: <1319503766.88893.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Datamaster -50$ plus shippage. It's going somewhere THIS WEEK, perhaps a dumpster if there's no interest. It weighs 95 lbs.It's dirty and has seen enough use to burn the screen a box of Atari 800xl stuff, cpu doesn't work, that's all I know, there's also a disk drive and printer in box, mostly pretty clean w/Atari covers, but cords are dirty - 15$ + also an atari 800xl in original box, not sure of details, could investigate 15$ + NIB Atart printer, contemporary w/the 800xl, 5$ + will combine shipping of course Hyperion, very yellow (almost orange), small crack in upper left corner, DOESN'T WORK, it did a few years ago. Perhaps something simple 20$ + I'll add more stuff tomorrow I'm in New Jersey From gyorpb at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 03:16:30 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:16:30 +0200 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: <4EA53CEC.8827.3AB452@cclist.sydex.com> References: <804983083-1319473525-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1669169589-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> <4EA53CEC.8827.3AB452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA6705E.7010305@gmail.com> On 2011-10-24 19:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Oct 2011 at 16:25, Vintage Coder wrote: > >> Decimal math (hardware supported) is used heavily in financial >> processing with IBM COBOL. No loss of precision because the type is >> base 10. BCD is very similar to what IBM calls "packed decimal". > > Only COMP-3 was packed decimal; COMP-1 and COMP-2 are single- and > double-precision real/floating/binary exponential. All others are > usually internally integers (scaled where a point is specified) > unless DISPLAY, which is kept as decimal character. A long time ago, I was instructed that the "native" S/370 (integer) data format was S9(4) COMP and that it should be used whenever possible for fastest performance (counters, indices, etc.). I've now worked on non-IBM iron long enough that when I go back to the 360 family, I'll have to resort to the manuals to see if that still holds true and what formats are preferred these days on the fancy Z hardware. Mind you, these things are no longer considered important, nowadays; "we got plenty of storage and processing power to spare", so just use whatever comes to mind and let the conversions be done by the compiler. It's not until the weekend batches start overlapping the Monday morning online processing that people show up at my desk asking how to squeeze their jobs back into the batch window. Even then, a re-order of some WHERE clauses in SQL statements usually shaves about 50% off the processing time. Some of these guys seem genuinely surprised that the order in which statements are placed can actually have influence on performance. Imagine that! And it's not just the programmers; competent DBA's that know more than to up the storage quotum when a table runs out of space are few and far between, too. Programming with performance in mind is a vanishing art and an unpopular skill (in practice, that is; on paper, everybody pays lip service to it) these days. The solution is almost invariably to throw new hardware at the problem. Can't blame them, really. I mean, if I were in charge and a programmer told me, "give me three years and I'll have it running twice as fast on the current hardware," I'm pretty sure my reaction wouldn't be to give the go-ahead on that one. .tsooJ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 25 04:33:58 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 02:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>> In the case of your HP250, even thoguh you are not running it it could >>> still be an implosion risk without the correctl-bonded faceplate. >> >> Hmm, I wonder if it's worth worrying about - I suspect that the chance is >> so small that other threats are far more likely, but still... > > The risk of a CRT imploding is small anyway (has anyone here ever seen it > ahppen spontanuously -- hitting a CRT with a hammer or simialr doens't > count ;-), but it's serious enough that manufactuers bother about it. Given that there are devices for easily breaking glass that are essentially sharp points, would a jab from a soldering iron be able to implode a CRT? I've done this by accident several times. Before anyone panics, the CRT in question was sent to the recycler years ago. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Oct 25 05:39:40 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:39:40 +0000 Subject: Fixed point financial data versus floating point In-Reply-To: <4EA6705E.7010305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> From: Joost van de Griek > A long time ago, I was instructed that the "native" S/370 (integer) data > format was S9(4) COMP and that it should be used whenever possible for > fastest performance (counters, indices, etc.). I don't believe this was ever true on System 370 and as far as I know, not on S/360 either. In IBM COBOL S9(4) COMP is a signed, halfword binary integer. There are instructions to do halfword adds, subtracts, etc. but the fullword version is probably faster or cheaper since the halfword instructions produce a fullword result. You may as well get the full operand width and use the fullword instructions. More than performance, the issue was probably storage in those days. A fullword is twice as big as a halfword and when you have less than a meg of core every couple of bytes counts. Halfword counters have a pretty small range so you have to make sure whatever you're counting will fit or that rollover doesn't hurt your code. Counters in COBOL are usually non-negative and indices should be non-negative unless you like taking chances with unsupported features. I know at least one guy who did this. He exceeded the permissible size of a table so he defined another one before it and used negative indexing (or subscripting) to point to the previous table in storage even thought the code referred to the second! Anyway in the counter or index case you would normally be better off with an unsigned 9(4) COMP where 0 to 65535 was enough range or 9(8) COMP if you need 0...(2^32)-1. Again this is all for counters and indices as you said, for money it's inappropriate. > I've now worked on non-IBM iron long enough that when I go back to the > 360 family, I'll have to resort to the manuals to see if that still holds > true and what formats are preferred these days on the fancy Z hardware. Nothing has changed, there are data types for all occasions and the only thing added was the IEEE floating point with either XA or ESA, long ago. Use packed decimal for money, fixed point binary for counters and indexes, zoned for display fields, and hex or binary floating point if you like to go head to head with Chuck on number crunching benchmarks! > Programming with performance in mind is a vanishing art and an unpopular > skill (in practice, that is; on paper, everybody pays lip service to it) > these days. The solution is almost invariably to throw new hardware at > the problem. Can't blame them, really. I mean, if I were in charge and a > programmer told me, "give me three years and I'll have it running twice > as fast on the current hardware," I'm pretty sure my reaction wouldn't be > to give the go-ahead on that one. In practice choosing the right approach and coding sanely seems to produce satisfactory results in critical pieces of code. I'm talking about the commercial space because that's where you and I work and this may not apply to embedded or other environments where the pipelining and microoptimizations are better understood than where we work. Nobody should think performance isn't a deadly serious thing in our environment, as you said, the batch window is a factor and system availability is no joke because of the fines, loss of revenue, and loss of customers that occur when production is not up on time. Sometimes that is all the time. Companies are willing to spend millions of dollars on one product to measure their throughput or improve their transaction rate. From gyorpb at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 06:17:03 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:17:03 +0200 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EA69AAF.5030705@gmail.com> On 2011-10-25 12:39, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > More than performance, the issue was probably storage in those days. C'mon, I'm not /that/ old! ;-) >> Programming with performance in mind is a vanishing art and an unpopular >> skill (in practice, that is; on paper, everybody pays lip service to it) >> these days. The solution is almost invariably to throw new hardware at >> the problem. Can't blame them, really. I mean, if I were in charge and a >> programmer told me, "give me three years and I'll have it running twice >> as fast on the current hardware," I'm pretty sure my reaction wouldn't be >> to give the go-ahead on that one. > > In practice choosing the right approach and coding sanely seems to produce > satisfactory results in critical pieces of code. I'm talking about the > commercial space because that's where you and I work and this may not apply > to embedded or other environments where the pipelining and > microoptimizations are better understood than where we work. Nobody should > think performance isn't a deadly serious thing in our environment, as you > said, the batch window is a factor and system availability is no joke > because of the fines, loss of revenue, and loss of customers that occur > when production is not up on time. Sometimes that is all the time. Companies > are willing to spend millions of dollars on one product to measure their > throughput or improve their transaction rate. True enough. The problem, as I see it, is that too few programmers pay attention to performance issue at programming time, and fixing a large system after the fact, while sometimes painfully obviously possible, becomes too large of an effort to undertake. Buying faster hardware will solve the problem quicker, at equal or lesser cost. It offends my programming heart to see code checked in that clearly could benefit from some simple performance tuning and optimisation in choosing storage formats. But "this is the tested version, changing it will involve another complete test cycle" and there is always a deadline to meet. We migrated to new hardware at $WORK recently, and of course the first few tests were promising: "wow, this thing really flies!" Well, just wait until we've migrated out bloated database full of dead wood to it, and all that great processing power will go towards making the damn thing barely usable. In other words, looking on the bright side, "oh, we'll soon bring this monster to its knees, too!" Heh. at least we have room to grow, now. Lots of space for more Itanium boards in the machine, provided HP manage to stay in business... .tsooJ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 25 08:29:40 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:29:40 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy (LISP) has died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> On 25/10/11 3:03 AM, SPC wrote: > John McCarthy has died. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/24/father_lisp_ai_john_mccarthy_dies/ > > SPc. > It would be sadly missing the mark to summarise McCarthy's influence by looking at the popularity of certain Lisp-based languages. In reality his influence pervades and transforms almost everything we do. In this way he stands with greats like Alan Turing and the late Dennis Ritchie. (And Lisp's insights are, if anything, *gaining* importance. Functional programming is the future, not the past.) --Toby From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 09:20:27 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:20:27 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA5EC32.1070901@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> <4EA5E688.50905@jwsss.com> <4EA5EC32.1070901@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 24/10/11 6:28 PM, jim s wrote: > >> From a friend who took his lisp course: >> >> (cons (cons R I) P) >> > > That's not a list; ityfm (in Scheme dialect): > > (cons 'R (cons 'I (cons 'P '()))) I haven't had the pleasure of programming in Lisp. But while in school, during the mid 70's, my first Comp.Sci project was in AI. It wasn't that big of a topic there yet - but the Math Dept chairman egged me on. I was already taking Electronics, and so my big hobby was robotics, and this was right in line. As best as I can remember we didn't have Lisp on our system, I used Fortran to build a cognitive speech program (in text only--no audio). Where it would understand english language grammar, rather than blurt out canned responses -- as in Eliza. Ever since watching 2001 Space Odyssey(and Star Trek ToS), it was challenging to get the system to converse with you. R.I.P John McCarthy =Dan From spedraja at ono.com Tue Oct 25 09:42:28 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:42:28 +0200 Subject: John McCarthy (LISP) has died In-Reply-To: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Of course. As usually said, he's not between us, but his legacy will pervive forever. In this way, I couldn't avoid during last days, seeing with certain perspective the passing away of S.Jobs, DMR and now McCarthy, to think about what was the computing and what is, mostly as Science but as a Profession too. It's my profession (yet) but many times, as these days, I feel the passion for it flying away every year. Is the cause of this my belief in the end of an era ? SPc. 2011/10/25 Toby Thain > On 25/10/11 3:03 AM, SPC wrote: > >> >> (And Lisp's insights are, if anything, *gaining* importance. Functional > programming is the future, not the past.) > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 25 09:50:57 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:50:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: <4EA69AAF.5030705@gmail.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA69AAF.5030705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201110251450.KAA22238@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> More than performance, the issue was probably storage in those days. > C'mon, I'm not /that/ old! ;-) The issue still is storage, in some environments. I think the issue is more general, though, a kind of intellectual laziness. For example, just recently I was part of a job where there was a desire to turn something on for about 5-10 seconds every couple of minutes (mostly to save power; it's battery powered). Others were thinking of using something like an Arduino. I put together something with a 555 and some discretes and came in _way_ under their power budget; I see this as basically the same thing as coding for efficiency, just in another field. > True enough. The problem, as I see it, is that too few programmers > pay attention to performance issue at programming time, [...] > We migrated to new hardware [...] "wow, this thing really flies!" > Well, just wait [...] and all that great processing power will go > towards making the damn thing barely usable. [...] I co-run a mud. One of the other admins (who works for Intel, amusingly) has a connect message set saying "The most amazing achievement of the computer software industry is its continuing cancellation of the steady and staggering gains made by the computer hardware industry." - Henry Petroski /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:01:24 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:01:24 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: <7B3F647E-A99C-42C0-B5A1-46142F327DFB@gmail.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> <7B3F647E-A99C-42C0-B5A1-46142F327DFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA6CF44.9000905@gmail.com> David Riley wrote: > I laughed out loud at the "supercomputers" part. Nice machines, but > supercomputers they weren't, even when new. I don't think it could even have been considered the most powerful computers made by DEC, at the time. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:05:13 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:05:13 -0400 Subject: C trivia - was Re: Dennis Ritchie has died In-Reply-To: <4EA1AA20.23084.1935144@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20111018092825.GA1741@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, <4EA182D1.32332.F9C613@cclist.sydex.com>, <48405B2E-1C17-423E-B82D-9E51D89A373D@gmail.com> <4EA1AA20.23084.1935144@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA6D029.6050101@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Howzabout: >>> >>> 77 PI PIC 9V9 VALUE 3.1. >> >> That looks like cobol to me ? > > Yup. Could just as easily be done in PL/I: > > DECLARE PI FIXED DECIMAL (2,1) INITIAL(3.2); But fixed point isn't precisely the same thing as floating point with significant digit tracking. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:10:31 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:10:31 +0100 Subject: [SPAM] - Outlook in comparison - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: <4EA613F8.6070200@compsys.to> References: <20111021120012.T76607@shell.lmi.net> <4EA613F8.6070200@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 25 October 2011 02:42, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I am changing my opinion on Outlook. >> >> I just experienced the State Farm Insurance "Secure Messaging Center". >> In comparison, Outhouse is MAGNIFICENT! >> >> For example, the State Farm system will not permit cc'ing an email address >> outside of their system (my own!). ?What's so frigging secret about an >> insurance claim?? >> >> The State Farm system times out after 15 minutes while composing a >> message. ?When it times out, there is NO warning. ?No "1 minute until >> doom". ?No "want to extend/continue?". No "want to save?" ?No automatic >> save of compositions in progress! ?Their "systems programmers" have told >> them that their hands are tied, and that it isn't possible to implement >> those "features"! >> >> >> When I first started using PINE, I wasn't completely satisfied. ?But each >> "Modern" system that I've tried has made me appreciate it more. ? And this >> State Farm system makes Outhouse look good. >> > > I have been using Netscape 7.2 for about 10 years and Netscape 4.? before > that. > > I still find it has more features and works better than Outlook. I sympathise - before I went to Gmail, I was a keen Mozilla email user. I too have a large email archive, going back to 1995 or so. I preferred Thunderbird+Firefox, as that way, if my email client was busy chewing on a large folder, my web browser was still usable and didn't freeze up. (And /vice versa/.) If you really like the integrated email+web suite, though, would you not be better off with Seamonkey these days? http://www.seamonkey-project.org/ Netscape 7.2 is /very/ old, has not been updated in years & I am sure it must struggle with many modern websites. Seamonkey is, IMHO, much more pleasant in comparison. > How does PINE compare to Netscape 7.2 and would I be able > to retain my mountain (over 100,000) of e-mails and Usenet posts? PINE is fine but it is a fairly basic, console-mode app. It will seem Spartan indeed compared even to an elderly FOSS Netscape. I believe that Mutt is the console-mode email client of choice for most people these days. Me, I like my GUI too much, I'm afraid. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 25 10:15:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:15:11 -0600 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <1319495495.64067.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319495495.64067.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1319495495.64067.YahooMailClassic at web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > It sure looks like mold though. Its not mold. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:21:11 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:21:11 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> <4EA5E688.50905@jwsss.com> <4EA5EC32.1070901@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > I haven't had the pleasure of programming in Lisp... I read the Lisp articles in "Byte" but was at the time quite young and only had been exposed to BASIC and 6502 assembler, so most of it was absolutely impenetrable to me. What _did_ teach me a little Lisp was this... http://ifdb.tads.org/viewgame?id=zj3ie12ewi1mrj1t (an interactive Lisp tutorial and development sandbox wrapped up inside a game file for a Z5 Z-machine) -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:28:57 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:28:57 +0100 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: <4EA61718.7070502@compsys.to> References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> <4EA61718.7070502@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 25 October 2011 02:55, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Liam Proven wrote: > >>> On 21 October 2011 04:58, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> At the risk if being naive, perhaps this list could use a bit of >>> inspiration >>> - >>> to see if we could help the discussion to be more useful. >>> >>> There is a book written by Michael Kahn: ?"The TAO of Conversation". >>> >>> The primary point is that in an idea conversation, there can never be >>> an opinion which is right or wrong. ?Attempting to support an opinion >>> helps us to understand the opinion even if we totally disagree with that >>> opinion. >>> >>> While I agree with both of the opinions of Dave McGuire and Liam Proven, >>> it seems difficult to figure out exactly which is more useful because >>> they >>> seem so angry at each other. >>> >> I only noticed this in a subsequent quote today. >> >> I was irritated, yes, but I was trying /very/ hard to be calm, polite >> and reasonable. I was the one getting abused, not dispensing it. >> > > That much was obvious. ?The question is why you became irritated! > >>> We could use a bit of "Barn Raising". >>> >> What does that mean? >> > > Read the source (the book) Luke (Liam), read the source. > > There is much more behind the concepts in the book, but > they are a good start. ?After reading for more than 36 years, > I am just beginning to understand myself. ?I also used to > be irritated (still am sometimes - and I also react without > thinking some of the time), so it is now easy to recognize > those events even easier in others as opposed to myself. I've added it to my Bookmooch wishlist. I'll just have to wait and see. It certainly looks interesting. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:41:19 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:41:19 -0400 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> References: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2011 12:34 PM, "Benjamin S?lberg" wrote: > > > I am also the proud owner of a Mattel Battelstar Galatica anno 1979 week 14. > Now that's interesting, I haent come across one of these yet. > The chip used in this vintage handheld game is labeled B6001EA and I guess it's a Rockwell International PPS-4/1 micro controller (a PPS-4 cpu with clock, ram and rom) from sources I found on the net. > >From what I read about on the various rockwell PPS-4 websites, the /1 chipset is either a 76xx or 77xx part#. At the moment, I don't recognize your part#. > I have found very good documentation on the PPS-4 CPU chip (note the missing "/1" postfix) here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rockwell/PPS-4_Data_Sheet_1974.pdf > > And I found the owners manual for the game here: > http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Manuals/Mattel-BattlestarGalacticaManual.pdf I'l have to take a look at this, maybe there is some other derivative in cpu part being used here. > > But I haven't been able to find any documentation on the PPS-4/1 chip that I believe is used in the game. I think that part# is some other variety since it's not a 76xx or 77xx part# -- which indicates PPS-4/1 chipset. > > I found that later revisions of the PPS-4 CPU was labeled PPS-4/2 and the 'newest' one PPS-4/1 (one would guess that /1 was older than /2). Yes, I thought so once too, when working on the early pinball games made by Gottlieb. They used the PPS-4/2 chipset, the 11660 cpu and several I/O support chips. I keep a set of these circuit boards for testing whenever somebody needs them fixed. I've seen Transceiver made by Masco from the 70's using this chipset too - I forget which bands it had. > > I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined RAM/ROM. That could be, you need the 10696EE Support chip to interface some RAM. But this chipset still needs one of the I/O support chips, a 10696EE, A1752EF, or 10788EB to talk with the real world :) > > So since there is only one chip in my handheld game, I guess it's a PPS-4/1 where I again take a wild guess that the above two chip minimal combination is in one chip just like most micro controllers today. Maybe this is a 4bit embedded version as in a TMS1000 found in the Big Trak. > > I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. None of the PPS-4 parts I've seen or have here are any 'EA' versions, only masked Rom. > > So I would like to hear all you guys if anyone of you could provide me more information on the specific chip and if all my guesses are right or wrong. > > Also if there is some way to dump the rom (without decapping the chip). > The end goal for me is to create an PPS-1 emulator (and possible running the game) Please let us know if you find some more info. =Dan From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 25 10:55:49 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:55:49 -0500 Subject: Mathematica/NeXT - Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:20 -0500 10/25/11, Toby clarified: >You can run Mathematica on a NeXT without any optical drive or media (I >have a licence & have done so, on a slab). Right! I'm running Mma 3.0.2.0 on my NeXT 040 Cube (NeXTStep 3.2) right now. However I think it's significantly harder to find Mathematica 3.0 for NeXTStep than NeXTStep 1.0, which is why I suggested the latter route. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From wrm at retro.co.za Tue Oct 25 03:21:59 2011 From: wrm at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:21:59 +0200 Subject: HP 13181B Tape Interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20111025101817.05a4bac0@mort.dw.co.za> Hi Etienne and all I remember Leon's name from Stellenbosch days. I recently managed to sign back onto the list -- thanks to whoever was responsible for that. I'm also in Cape Town, and I have some hardware I want to play with and some hardware I realise I will never get around to. The latter includes some Acorn RISC PC stuff, and a vast stash of BBC stuff. Two actual computers, and lots and lots of software and a few books. The only HP I have is an HP-85. Anybody else here from South Africa? From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Oct 25 03:34:52 2011 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:34:52 +0200 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA674AC.7090401@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 23.10.2011 21:12, schrieb Tony Duell: > [Complex numbers in Excel] > >> I'm not really sure since I found this by Googling, but it seems as if >> you have to enter complex numbers by entering a function. You can't just >> type "5+j8" into a cell, you have to go via a dialog box. The number >> will be displayed as "5+8j" (you can use anything you like instead of >> "j", it is an argument to the function and presumably[hopefully] does >> not take part in any calculations. What happens if you use "j" for one >> number and "i" for another, and then add them, is open to speculation. >> Could be interesting...) >> >> Any arithmetic operators have to be expressed via functions. > This doesn't sound much more pleasant than using separate cells for real > and imaginary parts and writing the appropriate functions to handle them, > something that you can do in just about any spreadsheet. > > There probably is a need for an 'engineer's spreadsheet' with proper > complex number support, but I guess the market is much less than for > 'business' applicatiosn which only need real numbers. This is actually the domain of more general computer algebra systems, like Mathematica or Maple. The point is not the 'i' (mathematical) vs. 'j' (EE) naming convention, but the fact that complex numbers are just a subset of similar mathematical concepts (google for quaternions or Cayley numbers) which seem to be important with Quantum Theory. The mathematics behind easily exceeds what ordinary spreadsheets can handle, and makes such an "engineer's spreadsheet" a rather limited concept. Regards -- Holger From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 11:10:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:10:58 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: <201110251450.KAA22238@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA69AAF.5030705@gmail.com>, <201110251450.KAA22238@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2011 at 10:50, Mouse wrote: > "The most amazing achievement of the computer software industry is its > continuing cancellation of the steady and staggering gains made by the > computer hardware industry." - Henry Petroski I remember an Intel engineer summarizing this more succinctly somewhat like this: "We work hard to build chips with amazing performance and the software people piss it all away." --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 25 11:46:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:46:52 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Getting further ot, but RE: Sr. Server Engineer (Vintage Systems) at Living Computer, Museum, - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: References: <4E8A9026.7000200@seefried.com> <20111004121656.U5334@shell.lmi.net> <4e8b6a3d.026f340a.76bc.ffffd6cb@mx.google.com> <4E8B7105.5040704@neurotica.com> <4EA0EDE2.1060606@compsys.to> <4EA61718.7070502@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4EA6E7FC.7050206@neurotica.com> On 10/25/2011 11:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Read the source (the book) Luke (Liam), read the source. >> >> There is much more behind the concepts in the book, but >> they are a good start. After reading for more than 36 years, >> I am just beginning to understand myself. I also used to >> be irritated (still am sometimes - and I also react without >> thinking some of the time), so it is now easy to recognize >> those events even easier in others as opposed to myself. > > I've added it to my Bookmooch wishlist. I'll just have to wait and > see. It certainly looks interesting. Yes it does, I'll look for a copy as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 12:15:19 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:15:19 +0100 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA69AAF.5030705@gmail.com> <201110251450.KAA22238@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Oct 2011 at 10:50, Mouse wrote: > >> "The most amazing achievement of the computer software industry is its >> continuing cancellation of the steady and staggering gains made by the >> computer hardware industry." ?- Henry Petroski > > I remember an Intel engineer summarizing this more succinctly > somewhat like this: > > "We work hard to build chips with amazing performance and the > software people piss it all away." > > --Chuck > An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and slow disk subsystems. I do that to myself. I find it a good way to discover the "right way" TM Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 14:01:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:01:04 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2011 at 18:15, Dave Caroline wrote: > An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and > slow disk subsystems. I do that to myself. I find it a good way to > discover the "right way" TM I still am in awe at the speed of the average personal computer. When programming the analysis software for the PAL "cloning" project, I was concerned about running nested loops inside of an outer loop that iterated 65K times (PAL16L8 chips for example, have some tricky aspects, such as tristate outputs and feedback lines), remembering how long a simple 65K decrement-and-jump sequence took on a 4MHz Z80 (about a second, if memory serves). Of course, it didn't matter. The analysis finishes near- instantaneously. Running a truth table with 16K entries through Espresso also completes in almost no time at all. I'm clearly of the "old' mindset. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 25 14:51:00 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:51:00 -0600 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 25 Oct 2011 at 18:15, Dave Caroline wrote: > An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and > slow disk subsystems. I do that to myself. I find it a good way to > discover the "right way" TM This is a recipe for expensive software. I've seen this idea floated verbally more than once, but any company that ever cared about performance or memory footprint (and there are plenty) never did this, and for good reason. It makes your software ridiculously expensive because you cripple the productivity of every person working on it. You're better off developing automated benchmarks against your software that test the performance or footprint sizes and having those benchmarks fail with a noisy report as soon as someone steps across the "that's too much" threshold. If most of the people in the world aren't doing what you think is smart, then perhaps you should look deeper into the situation before declaring the rest of those people idiots. Maybe they know something you don't. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 25 14:56:08 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110251956.PAA25542@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory >> and slow disk subsystems. There's an Apple person I share an IRC channel with. He says that developers have been using typical-consumer-spec machines rather than grossly overmuscled "developer" machines recently, specifically to dogfood their stuff properly. > I still am in awe at the speed of the average personal computer. > [...64K loop...] > Of course, it didn't matter. The analysis finishes > near-instantaneously. Running a truth table with 16K entries > through Espresso also completes in almost no time at all. > I'm clearly of the "old' mindset. Yeah. Me too. I recently dipped a toe into evolutionary programming. This involved "running programs" many, many times over. The task was game playing, so this means running games with multiple individuals as players. My population consisted of 10000 individuals and I wanted to run ten times that many games before starting to evolve, in order to have some data to work with. This means not just a loop that iterates 100K times, but a loop that iterates 100K times with the body of the loop running, on the average, about two individuals' programs. I ran this on my fastest machine, of course (one core of a 1.2GHz Core 2 Duo). I was expecting it to take substantial time, as humans measure time - probably somewhere between a few seconds and a few minutes. It didn't. It finished so fast I had to check to verify it really did do what it was supposed to. But "take care of the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves". When I code, efficiency is always, at the very least, lurking at the back of my mind; I went thorugh my larval stage on a VAX-11/780 and some of the habits it produced will probably always be with me. I don't consider this a bad thing. Any hardware can be made to crawl by throwing a sufficiently large problem at it, and the more efficiently the code runs, the larger the problem required to do so. And, to tie it back into the list topic, it means I can, and usually do, write code that does useful stuff on classic machines. "Old" mindset FTW! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 25 13:59:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 19:59:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <1319496360.66022.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 24, 11 03:46:00 pm Message-ID: > > > > --- On Mon, 10/24/11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The risk of a CRT imploding is small anyway (has anyone > > here ever seen it > > happen spontanuously -- hitting a CRT with a hammer or > > similar doens't > > count ;-), > > what about throwing a rock at a crt's face? Does that count? I did I think the rock is similar to a hammer :-) Ny point was that while a CRT wil limplode if you break it, it doesn't happen very offten unless you're throwing a brick at it or soemthing like that. > this once a long time ago, w/some terminals I bought from a library. I > hadn't blossomed into a vintage collector yet, the stuff was just junk > back then, so I took at least one of them outside and proceeded to smash I am wondering why you bought said old terminals if you had no use for them. > it. I was young (maybe 25), and must have been very bored. All I noticed When I was 25 I was actively preserving PDP11s etc. > was that the rock, which was something of an odd shape, between 1.5 and > 2.5 inches depending on how you measured it, was split in half. Is it > possible the implosion split the rock? That's an on topic question, > isn't it? Possible. I think the rock was already weak (perhaps partially cracked) and the force of the implosion finished it off. In any case, a terminal CRT is likely to ahve integral implosion protection, meaning that while it did implode when you threw that rock at it, the result was nowhere near as violent as it could have been. So think what it could have been like and thus why I am concerned aobut removing any implosion protection from CRTs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 25 14:03:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:03:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Oct 24, 11 04:28:19 pm Message-ID: > > I was referring to holding the faceplate on the CRT, not supporting the CRT= > . I plan to replace the metal band, padding with e.g. strapping tape if ne= > cessary. Does that make more sense? - Ian It wworries me, I can tell you that. That metal band is fixed ot the glass, it's also deliverately very tight. Somehow it supports the screen glass during an implosion, protectggn the viewer. It's not just a mouting band for the CRT. I don't think you'll be able to reattach it properly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 25 14:47:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:47:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Oct 25, 11 02:33:58 am Message-ID: > Given that there are devices for easily breaking glass that are > essentially sharp points, would a jab from a soldering iron be able to > implode a CRT? I've done this by accident several times. Before anyone Possibly. The soldering iron is hot which could set up thermal stresses i nthe glass too. I do know that soldering to a socket contact while the socket is plugged onto a CRT or valve can damage the glass-to-metal seal around the pin, for esample, and is thus a bad idea. Thist doesn't normally cause an implosion, but... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 25 15:02:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:02:09 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> On 10/25/2011 03:51 PM, Richard wrote: > On 25 Oct 2011 at 18:15, Dave Caroline wrote: > >> An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and >> slow disk subsystems. I do that to myself. I find it a good way to >> discover the "right way" TM > > This is a recipe for expensive software. I've seen this idea floated > verbally more than once, but any company that ever cared about > performance or memory footprint (and there are plenty) never did > this, and for good reason. It makes your software ridiculously > expensive because you cripple the productivity of every person > working on it. You're better off developing automated benchmarks > against your software that test the performance or footprint sizes > and having those benchmarks fail with a noisy report as soon as > someone steps across the "that's too much" threshold. > > If most of the people in the world aren't doing what you think is > smart, then perhaps you should look deeper into the situation before > declaring the rest of those people idiots. Maybe they know something > you don't. Perhaps, but "the rest of the world" is producing operating systems that require billions of bytes of memory and billions of clock cycles per second just to BOOT. I respectfully submit that they don't, in fact, know as much as they think they do, but they want fast machines on their desks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 25 16:08:14 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:08:14 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world >> If most of the people in the world aren't doing what you think is >> smart, then perhaps you should look deeper into the situation before >> declaring the rest of those people idiots. Maybe they know something >> you don't. > > Perhaps, but "the rest of the world" is producing operating systems that > require billions of bytes of memory and billions of clock cycles per > second just to BOOT. > > I respectfully submit that they don't, in fact, know as much as they > think they do, but they want fast machines on their desks. > > -Dave Computers and software are no different then every other piece of electronics sold. You basically take the same model add a new feature and maybe some small styling changes and make people upgrade every few years for no real reason. If they don't follow along you start changing connectors or software requirements to make them upgrade. There is a whole advertising segment meant to make people feel like scum if they are not up to the current standards of the masses. If I had to guess the "rest of the world" is using 5+ year old machines and software they paid little to nothing for while western (and some up and coming Asian ones) countries pay to keep Intel, Microsoft, and the rest rich. Anyway I would suspect most programmers are counting on processors having more cores (and systems having more RAM) in the time it takes for them to complete a software project and get it out the door. Both hardware and software makers need to keep pace with each other just to make money. If Microsoft was still selling Windows 2000 the hardware side would be pretty much out of business. If Intel can't keep coming up with faster processors (or more cores) then software sales would plummet. As it is only a few companies are raking in the money while others just tread water. Nobody is jumping into the software/hardware selling field where margins are a few percent at best, all efforts seem to be in advertising and data mining. One of the reasons I like old hardware and software is in the single tasking nature of it all (yes I know you can multitask but things just seemed more like task switching). Most old software does one thing, there is no massive integration with the net or every other software package. If anything you might even be more productive since you don't have all those annoying popups, it is just more relaxing. The reason all this changed is because of market saturation. Everyone who you could sell a computer to had one (or more) by the year 2000, after that you needed to speed up upgrades. Sooner or later this constant upgrade cycle will fall apart and many more companies will go bankrupt until we are stuck using machines and software for a much longer time period and the few programmers left are stuck trying to relearn optimization techniques again. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 25 16:35:59 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111025140925.C18223@shell.lmi.net> > > An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and > > slow disk subsystems. I do that to myself. I find it a good way to > > discover the "right way" TM On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Richard wrote: > This is a recipe for expensive software. I've seen this idea floated > verbally more than once, but any company that ever cared about > performance or memory footprint (and there are plenty) never did > this, and for good reason. It makes your software ridiculously > expensive because you cripple the productivity of every person > working on it. You're better off developing automated benchmarks > against your software that test the performance or footprint sizes > and having those benchmarks fail with a noisy report as soon as > someone steps across the "that's too much" threshold. I have long held the position that the biggest problem with most modern software, PARTICULARLY Microsoft, is that they have grossly indequate TESTING on slow, small, flaky hardware. When queried, they often state that they see no need for that. "That's a hardware problem". "Upgrade your hardware". "I'm surprised that it will even RUN on such obsolete junk (6 months old!)" There is an implication that YOU are inadequate if you complain about performance on machines that are not TODAY's issue. SOME hardware problems are rare but inevitable, such as disk I/O errors on read and write. PROPERLY written software should be so crash proof that it can report what happened and exit "gracefully" when they occur. But, will that be written into the software if the "developer" has never personally encountered a hardware error? Will the "developer" do an adequate job of exception handling if they have never experienced running the software at less that SICTEEN TIMES the "required" capacity and speed? Yes, developer productivity is up with state of the hard machines. BUT, too many current "developer"s do not have a reasonable level of experience with slow, small, or flaky hardware! IFF there were adequate testing on lower grade hardware, then certainly the bulk of the development could be done with high-end machines. BUT, THERE IS NOT. If there is not going to be multiple levels of hardware available to facilitate proper testing, and an obsession that all machines in the development process should be the same, then they would, indeed ALL need to be downgraded to lowest level to get proper testing. > If most of the people in the world aren't doing what you think is > smart, then perhaps you should look deeper into the situation before > declaring the rest of those people idiots. Maybe they know something > you don't. and maybe they don't. Microsoft, for quite some time (since the days when Bob Wallace walked out), has not had an appropriate testing protocol. My favorite example was the implementation of write-caching in SMARTDRV (1991). They refused to listen to Beta testers bug reports, because "It works fine on OUR computers", even when presented with analysis of the problem and that use of the software on flaky hardware WOULD result in data loss that would, by the very nature of the problem, end up being blamed on OTHER Microsoft products. Accordingly, "disk compression" got an undeservedly bad reputation, and MS-DOS 6.00 had to be upgraded AT NO CHARGE from 6.00 to 6.20. ALL due to failure to test on lower-grade hardware. "Developer"s with experience on lower-grade hardware don't make THAT kind of mistake. There is a normal tendency to pick fan-boys for Beta testing. Microsoft is not unique in that. I am not really surprised that I was dropped from their beta test program after I submitted a well documented and thorough bug report ABOUT THEIR BETA PROGRAM. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 25 11:56:47 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:56:47 +0100 Subject: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) References: , <20111019150435.F835@shell.lmi.net>, <006301cc8f65$005e9850$e3fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <20111020151638.R38896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <021c01cc935e$3efabb50$08fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Spreadsheets (was Microsoft flamage) > On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Excel is easy to use and comes with all Windows based computers. > > Excel is part of Microsoft OFFICE, NOT part of Windows. Yes, quite right. I slipped up again and should know better as I bought Microsoft Office and used it to install Excel (and only Excel) onto my laptop. > > Sadly I am not old enough (or lucky enough) to have used any > > alternatives - though I have heard of Lotus long before I joined this > > list. > > If you want, I'm sure that somebody could provide you copies of Lotus and > Visicalc that you could run on current machines. > > While MOST of us see Excel as a bloated or just feature heavy Visiclone, > I guess that from YOUR perspective, Visicalc/Lotus would seem like > "stripped down" variants of Excel. > Possibly, but then you could probably say the same about Excel 1 vs. the latest Excel. More recent software will always have extra "features" compared to earlier versions - after all, you wouldn't pay out for new software if it only contained everything you already had, would you? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 16:41:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:41:45 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, Message-ID: <4EA6CAA9.19211.14EE95D@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2011 at 17:08, TeoZ wrote: > The reason all this changed is because of market saturation. Everyone > who you could sell a computer to had one (or more) by the year 2000, > after that you needed to speed up upgrades. Sooner or later this > constant upgrade cycle will fall apart and many more companies will go > bankrupt until we are stuck using machines and software for a much > longer time period and the few programmers left are stuck trying to > relearn optimization techniques again. I figure that the next Great Leap Forward in Sales Engineering will be proliferation of "Sorry, this requires a 64 bit CPU" software. There's quite a bit out there already, but one can still ignore a lot of it... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 16:53:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:53:15 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: <20111025140925.C18223@shell.lmi.net> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, , <20111025140925.C18223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA6CD5B.19331.15972D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2011 at 14:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > There is a normal tendency to pick fan-boys for Beta testing. > Microsoft is not unique in that. I am not really surprised that I was > dropped from their beta test program after I submitted a well > documented and thorough bug report ABOUT THEIR BETA PROGRAM. Some of the most surprising test outcomes can come from clueless users, who don't know how the software works, but who have an idea of how it *should" work. They could crash software that had been through the most devious tests that T&I could devise. Some of it was a simple as turning off the system in the middle of transaction... The other thing you learned was that users know what comprises a good UI much better than the engineers do. --Chuck From la_bradford at cox.net Tue Oct 25 17:55:22 2011 From: la_bradford at cox.net (larry) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:55:22 +0000 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <20111025140925.C18223@shell.lmi.net> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <20111025140925.C18223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA73E5A.1000207@cox.net> On 10/25/11 21:35, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and >>> slow disk subsystems. I do that to myself. I find it a good way to >>> discover the "right way" TM > > On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Richard wrote: >> This is a recipe for expensive software. I've seen this idea floated >> verbally more than once, but any company that ever cared about >> performance or memory footprint (and there are plenty) never did >> this, and for good reason. It makes your software ridiculously >> expensive because you cripple the productivity of every person >> working on it. You're better off developing automated benchmarks >> against your software that test the performance or footprint sizes >> and having those benchmarks fail with a noisy report as soon as >> someone steps across the "that's too much" threshold. > > I have long held the position that the biggest problem with most modern > software, PARTICULARLY Microsoft, is that they have grossly indequate > TESTING on slow, small, flaky hardware. When queried, they often state > that they see no need for that. "That's a hardware problem". "Upgrade > your hardware". "I'm surprised that it will even RUN on such obsolete > junk (6 months old!)" There is an implication that YOU are inadequate if > you complain about performance on machines that are not TODAY's issue. > > SOME hardware problems are rare but inevitable, such as disk I/O errors on > read and write. PROPERLY written software should be so crash proof that > it can report what happened and exit "gracefully" when they occur. But, > will that be written into the software if the "developer" has never > personally encountered a hardware error? Will the "developer" do an > adequate job of exception handling if they have never experienced running > the software at less that SICTEEN TIMES the "required" capacity and speed? > > Yes, developer productivity is up with state of the hard machines. > BUT, too many current "developer"s do not have a reasonable level of > experience with slow, small, or flaky hardware! > > IFF there were adequate testing on lower grade hardware, then certainly > the bulk of the development could be done with high-end machines. BUT, > THERE IS NOT. > > If there is not going to be multiple levels of hardware available to > facilitate proper testing, and an obsession that all machines in the > development process should be the same, then they would, indeed ALL need > to be downgraded to lowest level to get proper testing. > >> If most of the people in the world aren't doing what you think is >> smart, then perhaps you should look deeper into the situation before >> declaring the rest of those people idiots. Maybe they know something >> you don't. > > and maybe they don't. > > Microsoft, for quite some time (since the days when Bob Wallace walked > out), has not had an appropriate testing protocol. My favorite example > was the implementation of write-caching in SMARTDRV (1991). They refused > to listen to Beta testers bug reports, because "It works fine on OUR > computers", even when presented with analysis of the problem and that use > of the software on flaky hardware WOULD result in data loss that would, by > the very nature of the problem, end up being blamed on OTHER Microsoft > products. Accordingly, "disk compression" got an undeservedly bad > reputation, and MS-DOS 6.00 had to be upgraded AT NO CHARGE from 6.00 to > 6.20. ALL due to failure to test on lower-grade hardware. > "Developer"s with experience on lower-grade hardware don't make THAT kind > of mistake. > > There is a normal tendency to pick fan-boys for Beta testing. Microsoft > is not unique in that. I am not really surprised that I was dropped from > their beta test program after I submitted a well documented and thorough > bug report ABOUT THEIR BETA PROGRAM. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > While I agree strongly with heavy testing on underfeature hardware, I do know of one case where the opposite condition exposed the bug - actually poor programming pracitce. Back in the early years of IBM virtual menory deployment, we received a program that the vendor claimed ran perfectly during their tests. We would get results ranging from totally "off the wall" answers to abends. When we dug into the dumps, we found a lot of random values in various data areas. Turns out that the developer was running on a system that was thrashing its vm pages, so each memory request was receiving a zeroed memory page. We had just upgraded to a system that was sized to support our growth over 3-5 years. Most of our jobs didn't even page, and when the application was loaded, whatever was in the memory page from the previous jobstep was still present. As far as the OS was concerned the same "owner" got the memory, so clearing the pages wasn't a security risk. The cause of the issue was that the programmer, seeing that he always had zeros during early testing, only initialized NON-ZERO data elements. It took us nearly a month to convince the vendor that there really was a problem, with many post-mortem dumps snailmailed back and forth. -- larry bradford From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 18:11:21 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:11:21 -0500 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA74219.1080703@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > I was referring to holding the faceplate on the CRT, not supporting the > CRT. I plan to replace the metal band, padding with e.g. strapping tape > if necessary. Does that make more sense? Does the band on your CRT definitely extend forward around the faceplate too, then? IIRC it didn't on the 250; there was just tape (which also extended under the band, but I left the band in place and simply cut the tape) cheers Jules From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 25 18:09:06 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:09:06 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: from "Ian King" at Oct 24, 11 04:28:19 pm, Message-ID: I realize it's fastened tightly, and in the YouTube video it has been removed, then reattached afterwards. So *someone* has figured out how to do it. In my experience, there's usually a turnbuckle on one side that can be loosened, then retightened for reassembly. I didn't complete the disassembly of this monitor to determine that for sure, however. ________________________________________ From: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:03 PM To: Ian King Cc: robgarn at mac.com; cctech at classiccmp.org; kossow at computerhistory.org; lbickley at bickleywest.com; rodsmallwood at btconnect.com; cclist at sydex.com Subject: Re: HP screen screen rot > > I was referring to holding the faceplate on the CRT, not supporting the CRT= > . I plan to replace the metal band, padding with e.g. strapping tape if ne= > cessary. Does that make more sense? - Ian It wworries me, I can tell you that. That metal band is fixed ot the glass, it's also deliverately very tight. Somehow it supports the screen glass during an implosion, protectggn the viewer. It's not just a mouting band for the CRT. I don't think you'll be able to reattach it properly. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 25 18:23:03 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA69AAF.5030705@gmail.com>, <201110251450.KAA22238@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111025162201.J18223@shell.lmi.net> > On 25 Oct 2011 at 10:50, Mouse wrote: > > "The most amazing achievement of the computer software industry is its > > continuing cancellation of the steady and staggering gains made by the > > computer hardware industry." - Henry Petroski On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I remember an Intel engineer summarizing this more succinctly > somewhat like this: > "We work hard to build chips with amazing performance and the > software people piss it all away." Hence my corollary to Moore's Law: . . . and the software will double its inefficiencies to compensate. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 25 18:35:37 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 19:35:37 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA5D0BE.5000906@bitsavers.org> <4EA5E688.50905@jwsss.com> <4EA5EC32.1070901@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA747C9.2040909@telegraphics.com.au> On 25/10/11 11:21 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: >> I haven't had the pleasure of programming in Lisp... > > I read the Lisp articles in "Byte" but was at the time quite young and > only had been exposed to BASIC and 6502 assembler, so most of it was > absolutely impenetrable to me. What _did_ teach me a little Lisp was > this... If there was one thing I could change about how I learned programming - it would be to have learned Lisp at the time I began learning C. (Before that was mostly BASIC and 6502/Z80 assembler, like you.) --Toby > > http://ifdb.tads.org/viewgame?id=zj3ie12ewi1mrj1t > > (an interactive Lisp tutorial and development sandbox wrapped up > inside a game file for a Z5 Z-machine) > > -ethan > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 25 19:40:22 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:40:22 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA69AAF.5030705@gmail.com> <201110251450.KAA22238@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA756F6.6020102@telegraphics.com.au> On 25/10/11 1:15 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 25 Oct 2011 at 10:50, Mouse wrote: >> >>> "The most amazing achievement of the computer software industry is its >>> continuing cancellation of the steady and staggering gains made by the >>> computer hardware industry." - Henry Petroski >> >> I remember an Intel engineer summarizing this more succinctly >> somewhat like this: >> >> "We work hard to build chips with amazing performance and the >> software people piss it all away." >> >> --Chuck >> > > An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and > slow disk subsystems. I fully agree. --Toby > I do that to myself. I find it a good way to discover the "right way" TM > > Dave Caroline > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Oct 25 19:46:21 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:46:21 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA69AAF.5030705@gmail.com> <201110251450.KAA22238@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA7585D.6080000@compsys.to> >Dave Caroline wrote: >>On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>>On 25 Oct 2011 at 10:50, Mouse wrote: >> >>>"The most amazing achievement of the computer software industry is its >>>continuing cancellation of the steady and staggering gains made by the >>>computer hardware industry." - Henry Petroski >>> >>> >>I remember an Intel engineer summarizing this more succinctly >>somewhat like this: >> >>"We work hard to build chips with amazing performance and the >>software people piss it all away." >> >An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and >slow disk subsystems. >I do that to myself. I find it a good way to discover the "right way" TM > At one point, I enhanced the device driver for the DEC RX02 (double density 8" floppy) disk drive on a Qbus system. DEC never bothered to upgrade the RX02 Qbus controller in the same manner as the RL02 controller which was upgraded to support 4 MB of memory. The DEC RX02 controller supports only 256 KB of memory. If the user buffer is located above 256 KB (in extended memory in RT-11), then the RX02 Qbus controller can't transfer the silo directly to the user buffer. I figured that it could not be that hard to use a bounce buffer, so I wrote and tested the code on a PDP-11/73. No problems with the concept or implementation. For some reason that I can't remember, I then used that new feature in the RX02 device driver on a PDP-11/23 - it slowed down by a factor of about 20 since it was missing the interleave window. The PDP-11/73 was able to transfer the silo to the bounce buffer and then to the user buffer within the sector interleave time. On the PDP-11/23, the transfer of the bounce buffer was not fast enough. The simple solution (which required a few more temporary variables) was to transfer the silo to the bounce buffer, then initiate the next I/O request in the case of a read (and the other appropriate things in the case of a write) followed by a transfer of the bounce buffer to the user buffer WHILE the next sector was being read into the silo. The additional code took about as long to figure out as the original extra code to use the bounce buffer. But there was no other choice when a PDP-11/23 was being used. Just confirming that I AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerome Fine From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 25 19:48:56 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:48:56 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA758F8.3050004@telegraphics.com.au> On 25/10/11 3:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Oct 2011 at 18:15, Dave Caroline wrote: > >> An easy cure is give developers slow machines with limited memory and >> slow disk subsystems. I do that to myself. I find it a good way to >> discover the "right way" TM > > I still am in awe at the speed of the average personal computer. > When programming the analysis software for the PAL "cloning" project, > I was concerned about running nested loops inside of an outer loop > that iterated 65K times (PAL16L8 chips for example, have some tricky > aspects, such as tristate outputs and feedback lines), remembering > how long a simple 65K decrement-and-jump sequence took on a 4MHz Z80 > (about a second, if memory serves). > > Of course, it didn't matter. The analysis finishes near- > instantaneously. Running a truth table with 16K entries through > Espresso also completes in almost no time at all. > > I'm clearly of the "old' mindset. We know this because you did not optimise unnecessarily. The problem today is at least two-dimensional. As Mouse lamented, there is no frugality or understanding of the great excess of speed and space, in order to use it effectively; but the salt in the wound is a widespread obsession with *micro*optimisation... time and attention wasted looking in the wrong directions. This is clear from forums everywhere - for example, the person who recently asked in a C/C++ channel which operator was "faster", < or <= ; or those who ask which integer datatype is "faster" in a SQL schema; or those who refuse to contemplate languages with high level abstractions suiting the problem at hand. These questions, like Tony's "can't find 382.73 Ohm resistors", betray a truly frightening lack of understanding of what is being done. --T > > --Chuck > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 25 20:00:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 19:00:11 -0600 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article , "TeoZ" writes: > Anyway I would suspect most programmers are counting on processors having > more cores (and systems having more RAM) in the time it takes for them to > complete a software project and get it out the door. While some people work like this, it isn't most. I regularly interact with a large community of developers outside my daily employment, so I have data to back up my assertions, not just an opinion I formed because 30 years ago I coded small character based applications in 16K of RAM. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 25 20:01:23 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 19:01:23 -0600 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA6CAA9.19211.14EE95D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA6CAA9.19211.14EE95D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4EA6CAA9.19211.14EE95D at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I figure that the next Great Leap Forward in Sales Engineering will > be proliferation of "Sorry, this requires a 64 bit CPU" software. > There's quite a bit out there already, but one can still ignore a lot > of it... I've worked on applications that genuinely need the 64-bit OS and compilation model in order to keep customers productive. Granted, it isn't notepad, but to stick your head in the sand and pretend that all of the demand for 64-bit systems is purely a sales gimmick is just stupid. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Oct 25 20:23:13 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 03:23:13 +0200 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: References: <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111026012313.GB28966@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 03:57:14PM -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>>>How will they ever get rich moving the rounded-down fractional > >>>>pennies into their own accounts? > >>>I was done once. The guy that did it didn't understand that he > >>>was making the balance sheets come out too good. It was a flag > >>>that something was wrong and he got caught. > >On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, David Riley wrote: > >>Was he by any chance played by Richard Pryor? > > > >It has been done MANY times. Some real incidents, and some urban legends. > > > >Usually the miscreant is caught due to failing to realize how rapidly the > >"receiving" account will grow. > > Where's my red Swingline stapler? Forget about the silly squirrels, here is a can of gasoline and a box of matches. HTH, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 25 20:32:31 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:32:31 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "cctalk" Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 9:00 PM Subject: Re: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world > > In article , > "TeoZ" writes: > >> Anyway I would suspect most programmers are counting on processors having >> more cores (and systems having more RAM) in the time it takes for them >> to >> complete a software project and get it out the door. > > While some people work like this, it isn't most. I regularly > interact with a large community of developers outside my daily > employment, so I have data to back up my assertions, not just an > opinion I formed because 30 years ago I coded small character based > applications in 16K of RAM. > -- I would guess it depends on what you are doing. Console developers know that their target platform is not moving at all, so if they expect the next games to be any better or faster they HAVE to optimize or wait for the next console (and lose sales). Kind of sucks how some console games ported to faster desktop machines run like crap because they were designed for a console to begin with. How much optimizing can you do these days when the game you are building is using a game engine you purchased which might run faster on a Geforce GPU then an ATI or vice versa? I have no idea what embedded systems are like these days , they used to be processor, storage, and RAM starved so they did need optimized but you also knew exactly what the resources were. If you are programming shareware utilities you might want the code to work on a large range of machines and operating system versions so code size and speed might be optimized to work on older slower gear but you also might not be able to user tools that need specific OS revisions to work. People who design the OS that need backward compatibility while needing new features and eye candy probably expect more powerful systems to be available and design the operating spec for this (Windows 7 was not designed for a Pentium 1 for example). Years ago when Intel started using MMX instructions in the Pentium 1 line were developers smart in using that optimization in their code knowing that most of the new machines (but not all) coming out will have it? Things have changed quite a bit since the days of 8 bit computers where you knew exactly what the resources and chipsets were AND your app would be the only thing running. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 21:29:41 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:29:41 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:32 PM, TeoZ wrote: > I have no idea what embedded systems are like these days , they used to be processor, storage, and RAM starved so they did need optimized but you also knew exactly what the resources were. They still generally are processor, storage and RAM starved these days, but the spectrum is a lot larger on the top end. We had a customer who insisted that the CPU doing the housekeeping for an FPGA board had to be an 800MHz PowerPC with half a gig of RAM running Linux. They insisted on this because they needed to keep up with about a 1KHz interrupt rate and couldn't be bothered to learn how to use a proper embedded OS (or pseudo-RTOS) which would have done the same on a little embedded ARM with a few hundred K of RAM (or perhaps even tens, but it's hard to fit an IP stack in anything that small and have room left for anything else). A lot of these decisions are driven less by the engineers than the project managers who were promoted out of engineering so that they could do less damage (protip: they don't). All the engineers on this project (including most of the ones from the customer) fought this tooth and nail. > Years ago when Intel started using MMX instructions in the Pentium 1 line were developers smart in using that optimization in their code knowing that most of the new machines (but not all) coming out will have it? Things have changed quite a bit since the days of 8 bit computers where you knew exactly what the resources and chipsets were AND your app would be the only thing running. True, but MMX instructions (and their modern counterparts, the SSE branch) seldom make a general-purpose difference. Most people for whom they will make a difference (game and media programmers, particularly) typically are the types who will make use of them. On x86, at least, pretty much all hardware since 2005 supports at least SSE3 except for the barest-bones stuff (Atom, for example, is a mixed bag). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 23:43:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:43:50 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA6CAA9.19211.14EE95D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EA72D96.8399.2D157F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2011 at 19:01, Richard wrote: > I've worked on applications that genuinely need the 64-bit OS and > compilation model in order to keep customers productive. Granted, it > isn't notepad, but to stick your head in the sand and pretend that all > of the demand for 64-bit systems is purely a sales gimmick is just > stupid. No, I didn't say that. Right now most ordinary people can use a 32- bit OS and applications and have a good match for their net connectivity speed (particularly in the US). But I see 64-bit hardware and OS being peddled to my neighbors who share the same 1.5Mb/sec down/768Kb/sec upload speeds. Hell, I don't expect my connect speed to change enough to challenge the throughput of a 10BaseT network within my lifetime. How long before Microsoft drops 32-bit support and the apps all follow? Not long, I'll wager. --Chuck (It's funny--we were supposed to get universal 40Mb/sec net connectivity by 2000 as part of the Bellcore settlement. Eh, what's 200 billion dollars, anyway? We're no. 21! We're no. 21!) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 23:45:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:45:27 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, , Message-ID: <4EA72DF7.21522.2D2D23C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2011 at 22:29, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:32 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > > I have no idea what embedded systems are like these days , they used > > to be processor, storage, and RAM starved so they did need optimized > > but you also knew exactly what the resources were. > > They still generally are processor, storage and RAM starved these > days, but the spectrum is a lot larger on the top end. The problem is that I'm not sure what "embedded" means any more. Is a smartphone with a Cortex A15 4-core processor "embedded"? How about an Android Pad? The distinction is blurring pretty fast. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 00:26:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 01:26:17 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA72DF7.21522.2D2D23C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, , <4EA72DF7.21522.2D2D23C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 12:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I have no idea what embedded systems are like these days , they used >>> to be processor, storage, and RAM starved so they did need optimized >>> but you also knew exactly what the resources were. >> >> They still generally are processor, storage and RAM starved these >> days, but the spectrum is a lot larger on the top end. > > The problem is that I'm not sure what "embedded" means any more. Is > a smartphone with a Cortex A15 4-core processor "embedded"? How > about an Android Pad? > > The distinction is blurring pretty fast. Putting full-blown UNIX computers in telephones doesn't change what "embedded" has always meant, or at least implied. The system I'm working on now is built around an ARM7 at 70MHz with 512KB of flash and 32KB of RAM, and that's about as big as I go in the embedded space. It doesn't have file-structured mass storage, nor does it have a user interface in any traditional sense. THAT'S embedded. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 00:44:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:44:37 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA72DF7.21522.2D2D23C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA73BD5.31589.308FFDD@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2011 at 1:26, Dave McGuire wrote: > "embedded" has always meant, or at least implied. The system I'm > working on now is built around an ARM7 at 70MHz with 512KB of flash > and 32KB of RAM, and that's about as big as I go in the embedded > space. It doesn't have file-structured mass storage, nor does it have > a user interface in any traditional sense. THAT'S embedded. So why the blurb about the ARM A15 in "embedded" applications in today's email (from ED "embedded update")? Methinks the goalposts are being moved... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 00:56:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 01:56:29 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA73BD5.31589.308FFDD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA72DF7.21522.2D2D23C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com> <4EA73BD5.31589.308FFDD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA7A10D.1030606@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 01:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> "embedded" has always meant, or at least implied. The system I'm >> working on now is built around an ARM7 at 70MHz with 512KB of flash >> and 32KB of RAM, and that's about as big as I go in the embedded >> space. It doesn't have file-structured mass storage, nor does it have >> a user interface in any traditional sense. THAT'S embedded. > > So why the blurb about the ARM A15 in "embedded" applications in > today's email (from ED "embedded update")? > > Methinks the goalposts are being moved... Lots of newbies (even newbies who have chops...just meaning people who haven't been doing this for awhile) get the idea that "embedded" involves hundreds of MHz of clock speed and megabytes of memory. They haven't moved MY goal posts. But then, this is illustrative of the fact that there are several "embedded worlds" that are separate and distinct from one another. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 01:13:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 02:13:40 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA7A10D.1030606@neurotica.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA72DF7.21522.2D2D23C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com> <4EA73BD5.31589.308FFDD@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA7A10D.1030606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA7A514.4060902@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 01:56 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > But then, this is illustrative of the fact that there are several > "embedded worlds" that are separate and distinct from one another. I probably should've elaborated on this a bit. I see three distinct "embedded worlds". The first involves tiny processors, usually 8-bitters, in 8- to 16-pin packages, clocked at a few kHz to a few MHz at most, with a few dozen bytes of RAM. These embedded systems are found in your TV remote controls, power managers for laptops, electric utility meters, air conditioners, etc. They are typically programmed to the bare metal. The second involves bigger processors, typically 8, 16, or even 32 bits, clocked below 100MHz with less than 1MB of RAM. They sometimes use an RTOS, but they don't run UNIX. (this is where I work the most) The third involves BIG processors, sometimes even x86, usually running Linux or an embedded BSD variant, but almost always some full-blown UNIX-flavored OS. The stratification between these three categories seems to be pretty clear these days, and some people "cross over" from time to time as required. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 26 01:39:06 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:39:06 +0000 Subject: Working as a systems programmer on IBM big iron In-Reply-To: <201110240954.p9O9sZBm027923@imr-da05.mx.aol.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D767@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <201110240954.p9O9sZBm027923@imr-da05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F071@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: vintagecoder at aol.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:55 AM > Thanks for your note, Rich. > This is a wierd one for some reason, mystery surrounds it. I know people > who remember every CPU model and OS they ran, how much core they had, what > date they got the machine, etc. but nobody seems to remember the details on > when IBM started their current policy of not shipping source or when OCO > was. I guess everyone was so traumatized they blocked it out! All the > confusion and lack of detail is surprising when you consider how much > people remember the details of everything else. Well, as I noted, the OCO arguments were happening, and successfully fought off by the customer base, in the early 1980s. At Chicago, we weren't quite as affected by it until we moved from Amdahl to IBM hardware, so it's not surprising that I don't remember exactly. > If you want I can ask what people recommend to run on your 360/40. I know a > few old time sysprogs. I have definitely heard of people running starter > systems with much less than 64K, I just don't know if they were good for > anything except sysgens. Thanks, I would appreciate that. I'm on the Hercules mailing lists on Yahoo, and those folks have been quite friendly with their advice, as well. Rich (on my laptop in Germany, no .sig in this copy of Outlook) From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 26 01:49:17 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:49:17 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy (LISP) has died In-Reply-To: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> > It would be sadly missing the mark to summarise McCarthy's influence by > looking at the popularity of certain Lisp-based languages. In reality > his influence pervades and transforms almost everything we do. > In this way he stands with greats like Alan Turing and the late Dennis > Ritchie. > (And Lisp's insights are, if anything, *gaining* importance. Functional > programming is the future, not the past.) Leaving aside LISP and its descendants, JMC would still be important in the history of computing for having first named and described the concept of "timesharing" in computers. (NB: Strachey's concept of "timesharing" is rather what we now call "multiprogramming" or "multiforking", as he himself said to McCarthy decades ago.) If not for timesharing, DEC would not have created the PDP-6 which begat the PDP-10 which hosted or inspired a large number of developments which led to the world of today. Rich (laptop, Germany, no .sig) From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 26 01:51:27 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:51:27 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: <4EA6CF44.9000905@gmail.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> <7B3F647E-A99C-42C0-B5A1-46142F327DFB@gmail.com> <4EA6CF44.9000905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F106@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:01 AM > David Riley wrote: >> I laughed out loud at the "supercomputers" part. Nice machines, but >> supercomputers they weren't, even when new. > I don't think it could even have been considered the most powerful > computers made by DEC, at the time. Oh, Hell, no. Rich (you know) From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 26 02:36:22 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:36:22 +0200 Subject: John McCarthy (LISP) has died In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Very interesting comment, Rich (and Toby, by the way). Thanks. Sergio (SPc) 2011/10/26 Rich Alderson > > > It would be sadly missing the mark to summarise McCarthy's influence by > > looking at the popularity of certain Lisp-based languages. In reality > > his influence pervades and transforms almost everything we do. > > > In this way he stands with greats like Alan Turing and the late Dennis > > Ritchie. > > > (And Lisp's insights are, if anything, *gaining* importance. Functional > > programming is the future, not the past.) > > Leaving aside LISP and its descendants, JMC would still be important in the > history of computing for having first named and described the concept of > "timesharing" in computers. (NB: Strachey's concept of "timesharing" is > rather what we now call "multiprogramming" or "multiforking", as he himself > said to McCarthy decades ago.) > > If not for timesharing, DEC would not have created the PDP-6 which begat > the PDP-10 which hosted or inspired a large number of developments which > led > to the world of today. > > Rich > > (laptop, Germany, no .sig) > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 26 03:50:57 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:50:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I was referring to holding the faceplate on the CRT, not supporting the CRT= >> . I plan to replace the metal band, padding with e.g. strapping tape if ne= >> cessary. Does that make more sense? - Ian > > It wworries me, I can tell you that. That metal band is fixed ot the > glass, it's also deliverately very tight. Somehow it supports the screen > glass during an implosion, protectggn the viewer. It's not just a mouting > band for the CRT. I haven't seen any metal band (I know what band you mean) on those CRTs here with "screen rot". The faceplate is just glued in front of the actual picture tube, and there's a considerable gap between the two (around 0.5-1cm) at the outer edges that is filled with said filler/glue. I've only seen some kind of thin (and thus quite weak) adhesive tape around the border. But I'm only speaking of the CRTs in HP terminals and some other mid-80s computer monitors (e.g. one from a BASIS-108, containing a Philips CRT). Christian From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 05:34:09 2011 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 03:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) Message-ID: <1319625249.34301.YahooMailNeo@web65909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> All the machines have gone now. Thanks to the list for the interest. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 26 06:17:56 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 04:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QBUS PDP 11's available free in Yorkshire (UK) In-Reply-To: <1319625249.34301.YahooMailNeo@web65909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319625249.34301.YahooMailNeo@web65909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, silvercreekvalley wrote: > All the machines have gone now. Thanks to the list for the interest. I'm glad they went someone besides a scrapper. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 26 07:40:07 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:40:07 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/10/11 3:36 AM, SPC wrote: > Very interesting comment, Rich (and Toby, by the way). > Hi Sergio Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries to put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) I haven't read it all yet. --Toby * - http://www.quora.com/Ben-Newman/R-I-P-John-McCarthy > Thanks. > > Sergio (SPc) > > 2011/10/26 Rich Alderson > >> >>> It would be sadly missing the mark to summarise McCarthy's influence by >>> looking at the popularity of certain Lisp-based languages. In reality >>> his influence pervades and transforms almost everything we do. >> >>> In this way he stands with greats like Alan Turing and the late Dennis >>> Ritchie. >> >>> (And Lisp's insights are, if anything, *gaining* importance. Functional >>> programming is the future, not the past.) >> >> Leaving aside LISP and its descendants, JMC would still be important in the >> history of computing for having first named and described the concept of >> "timesharing" in computers. (NB: Strachey's concept of "timesharing" is >> rather what we now call "multiprogramming" or "multiforking", as he himself >> said to McCarthy decades ago.) >> >> If not for timesharing, DEC would not have created the PDP-6 which begat >> the PDP-10 which hosted or inspired a large number of developments which >> led >> to the world of today. >> >> Rich >> >> (laptop, Germany, no .sig) >> >> > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 07:46:32 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need advice Message-ID: All, I very much need to sell off my workstation collection. There has been essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the subject. I'm trying to figure out why. Is it: - My geographical location (Burlington, VT)? - No interest in these specific items? - Something else? It cannot be price, since I didn't post any and am quite flexible in terms of negotation. Would even consider trades if the incoming item(s) take up considerable less cubic volume :-). If it's the location, I'm starting to explore what would be required to properly pack and ship, e.g. a 45 lb. Sun Ultra 60 with some assurance it will arrive in one piece. It doesn't look like anyone in the area is setup for injected foam packing anymore, and I just don't trust the usual foam + peanuts anymore - too many broken units over the past few years. I think UPS and FedEx hired the chimps from the old luggage commercials to throw packages around during loading. If I go to the trouble and expense of buying proper boxes and InstaPak cushioning, it's going to average about $35-40 per unit for packing - never mind freight costs. But, would appreciate hearing from the community with alternate ideas. It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic recycling. Steve -- From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Oct 26 08:17:52 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:17:52 +0000 Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201110261317.p9QDHuOs025303@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> > I very much need to sell off my workstation collection. There has been > essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the subject. > I'm trying to figure out why. Is it: I would guess it is because you said you won't ship. > If I go to the trouble and expense of buying proper boxes and InstaPak > cushioning, it's going to average about $35-40 per unit for packing - > never mind freight costs. I am broke from being laid off the first time in my career. If not, I would certainly be in the market for an Ultra 60 and would pay shipping and packing. I don't think anybody who is serious about wanting something would object to reimbursing the seller to make sure the equipment isn't damaged. Some (many?) list members live in far off places and we don't have any hope on finding interesting equipment where we live because it was simply never sold here in any significant quantity. Most of what little interesting stuff I have was bought in America and shipped here. The only option we have is shipping, and you guys who live where it's relatively easy to ship stuff and where equipment is plentiful and cheap, have no idea how we feel when we see all the ads saying "I absolutely will not ship, come pick it up or it goes to the recycler!" I have to pay top dollar for everything I buy and I also get skinned alive on shipping. In better days when I had some cash at least that was an option. For me at the moment it isn't. By the way, somebody posted about parting out his V210 (I need PSUs and fans) and we exchanged two emails and then he disappeared. If you are reading this, please check your spam folder! I responded as soon as I received your emails. > It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic recycling. As well it should! From rickb at bensene.com Wed Oct 26 08:19:08 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:19:08 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F106@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> <7B3F647E-A99C-42C0-B5A1-46142F327DFB@gmail.com> <4EA6CF44.9000905@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F106@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: >>> I laughed out loud at the "supercomputers" part. Nice machines, but >>> supercomputers they weren't, even when new. >> I don't think it could even have been considered the most powerful >> computers made by DEC, at the time. > Oh, Hell, no. There's no doubt that the 11/70 was not a supercomputer in any sense of the definition. Wasn't the 11/70 in a class of machines called "supermini" computers...machines that were based on the architecture of minicomputers, but with CPU extensions(e.g., multiple CPU modes[kernel, supervisor, user]), larger memory capacity(including virtual memory capabilities), and significantly improved I/O architectures and bandwidth? I wonder if the poster of the auction on eBay misread "supermini" and thought "supercomputer"? I'm probably giving WAY too much benefit of the doubt to the auction poster. -Rick From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 26 08:18:36 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:18:36 +0200 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks ! Sergio (SPc) 2011/10/26 Toby Thain > On 26/10/11 3:36 AM, SPC wrote: > >> Very interesting comment, Rich (and Toby, by the way). >> >> > Hi Sergio > > Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries to > put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. > > http://www.paulgraham.com/**rootsoflisp.html > (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) > > I haven't read it all yet. > > --Toby > > > * - http://www.quora.com/Ben-**Newman/R-I-P-John-McCarthy > > Thanks. >> >> Sergio (SPc) >> >> 2011/10/26 Rich Alderson >> >> >>> It would be sadly missing the mark to summarise McCarthy's influence by >>>> looking at the popularity of certain Lisp-based languages. In reality >>>> his influence pervades and transforms almost everything we do. >>>> >>> >>> In this way he stands with greats like Alan Turing and the late Dennis >>>> Ritchie. >>>> >>> >>> (And Lisp's insights are, if anything, *gaining* importance. Functional >>>> programming is the future, not the past.) >>>> >>> >>> Leaving aside LISP and its descendants, JMC would still be important in >>> the >>> history of computing for having first named and described the concept of >>> "timesharing" in computers. (NB: Strachey's concept of "timesharing" is >>> rather what we now call "multiprogramming" or "multiforking", as he >>> himself >>> said to McCarthy decades ago.) >>> >>> If not for timesharing, DEC would not have created the PDP-6 which begat >>> the PDP-10 which hosted or inspired a large number of developments which >>> led >>> to the world of today. >>> >>> Rich >>> >>> (laptop, Germany, no .sig) >>> >>> >>> >> > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 08:29:46 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:29:46 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy (LISP) has died In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 10:42 AM, SPC wrote: > In this way, I couldn't avoid during last days, seeing with certain > perspective the passing away of S.Jobs, DMR and now McCarthy, to think > about > what was the computing and what is, mostly as Science but as a Profession > too. It's my profession (yet) but many times, as these days, I feel the > passion for it flying away every year. Is the cause of this my belief in > the > end of an era ? > I think it's the commoditization of computing that's making professional computing careers feel less 'special' I was fascinated by computers as a kid as they seemed like some ultra-rare, mysterious, huge machine out of a sci-fi movie. They were the future - knowledge and their use were limited to those who could wrap their head around exotic numbering systems and mathematical concepts. Computers themselves were alien devices - liquid cooled, maintained with exotic thermal imaging devices and connected to special networks that only huge companies and the DoD had access to. Right now I have, in a briefcase-sized box under my desk, a thousand times the computing power of a Cray 2 and 26 times as much memory. My graphics cards alone have eight times the amount of memory of a fully loaded Cray 2. You can walk into a store in a shopping mall and buy this much computing horsepower. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 26 08:26:54 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:26:54 -0500 Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201110261333.p9QDX1ZZ006167@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:46 AM 10/26/2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: >But, would appreciate hearing from the community with alternate ideas. >It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic recycling. With items like this, demand may be very low. You may need to advertise in several targeted venues... is there still a Usenet group? A web site with a forum? Web sites of other Sun enthusiasts? You might also need to wait for a response. If there are few people looking, and they're not looking very often, they might stumble on your notice months from now. You could advertise on Craigslist, but that'll attract the scrappers who are only after your gold. Box-within-box with plenty of foam bricks can protect from the chimps. It's not free if you do it right. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 26 08:29:30 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:29:30 -0500 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world (was: Fixed point financial data versus floating point) In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110261333.p9QDX1W9006168@billy.ezwind.net> At 02:51 PM 10/25/2011, Richard wrote: >This is a recipe for expensive software. I've seen this idea floated >verbally more than once, but any company that ever cared about >performance or memory footprint (and there are plenty) never did >this, and for good reason. Amen. Give the developers the best environment you can afford. If you want to test and benchmark on slower machines, that's fine. - John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 08:42:44 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:42:44 -0500 Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > I very much need to sell off my workstation collection. There has been > essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the subject. > I'm trying to figure out why. Is it: > > - My geographical location (Burlington, VT)? > > - No interest in these specific items? It's over 2000mi for me, much as I'd absolutely love one of the SGIs (and to be honest, if *any* "real" vintage Unix system fell in my lap I wouldn't complain; there's nothing around here). But the freight costs on something like that are going to be astronomical, too. Part of it's the location I'm sure, and part of it's probably that it's a bad time of year: the run-up to Christmas gets expensive for people (travel to see family, gifts etc.), plus for many of us there are winter heating bills to think about, plus - at least in the US - it's getting close to tax season. I suspect you'd have more luck waiting until April time next year if that's possible. cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 08:44:46 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:44:46 -0400 Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > But, would appreciate hearing from the community with alternate ideas. > > It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic recycling. If you need to relieve some pressure, perhaps go ahead and junk some of the more common stuff - the Suns, basically. There are just so many decent used Ultras kicking around the Northeast and Eastern Seaboard. There are probably very few people that would drive way up to you for a machine they could get in their back yards. And even the DEC stuff will be hard to find homes for, with DECland being just a few hours away. Can you hang onto the stuff until the April MIT Flea? -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 26 09:06:07 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201110261406.KAA08759@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I very much need to sell off my workstation collection. There has > been essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the > subject. I'm trying to figure out why. Is it: > - My geographical location (Burlington, VT)? > - No interest in these specific items? > - Something else? Speaking personally, a cross between the last two. There's very little there I actually want - Sun type-3 keyboards and mice, and maybe a Multia - and your "will not ship" pretty much killed even those for me. (I suppose the latter could be viewed as the first of your list, since if you were in Montreal or Ottawa it wouldn't be a big deal....) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 26 09:10:00 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:10:00 +0100 Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Steven Hirsch wrote: > - No interest in these specific items? You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend of mine gave me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in my loft for after the divorce... (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 26 09:23:44 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:23:44 -0400 Subject: Need advice Message-ID: Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > I very much need to sell off my workstation collection. There has been > essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the subject. > I'm trying to figure out why. [...] > It cannot be price, since I didn't post any and am quite flexible in terms > of negotation. On the issue of price... you might be surprised. If you listed it on E-bay at 10 times what the stuff cost new describing it as the biggest and most historically important mainframe ever, you'd probably stroke more egos and raise more interest than if you continue trying to honestly find a good home for it. From james at slor.net Wed Oct 26 09:30:31 2011 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:30:31 -0400 Subject: Any interest in an IBM 5160 XT? Message-ID: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net> Would anyone on this list be interested in acquiring a working XT? I picked one up a few years back and just haven't had a whole lot of use for it, so perhaps there's someone here who would. It's in excellent condition (both cosmetically and functionally), and I can take pics if anyone has interest. General specs: - 640 KB RAM - 20 MB hard drive - 5.25" floppy - Currently running DOS 3.3a - Includes IBM 5151 TTL monitor (solid picture without burn-in) Thanks! James From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 26 09:48:48 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:48:48 +0200 Subject: Any interest in an IBM 5160 XT? In-Reply-To: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net> References: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net> Message-ID: It depends of your location. Some of us live in other countries than US, UK or Germany. Regards SPc. 2011/10/26 James > Would anyone on this list be interested in acquiring a working XT? I > picked > one up a few years back and just haven't had a whole lot of use for it, so > perhaps there's someone here who would. It's in excellent condition (both > cosmetically and functionally), and I can take pics if anyone has interest. > General specs: > > - 640 KB RAM > - 20 MB hard drive > - 5.25" floppy > - Currently running DOS 3.3a > - Includes IBM 5151 TTL monitor (solid picture without burn-in) > > Thanks! > James > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 26 09:56:35 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:56:35 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. Message-ID: > Wasn't the 11/70 in a class of machines called "supermini" > computers...machines that were based on the architecture of > minicomputers, but with CPU extensions(e.g., multiple CPU modes[kernel, > supervisor, user]), larger memory capacity(including virtual memory > capabilities), and significantly improved I/O architectures and > bandwidth? I wonder if the poster of the auction on eBay misread > "supermini" and thought "supercomputer"? A complete 11/70 installation almost certainly included line printers, many terminals on multiplexers, timesharing software, a medium to large farm of massbus disks and tapes, etc. This meant it was usually in a room with a raised floor. Just a few years later (or even overlapping) the same departmental computer market was being sold 11/780's with very similar or identical peripheral complement. Contrast this with the (to me) more traditional -11 market of a computer that went into a lab with some custom and simple Unibus peripherals for data acquisition. To me at least the "supermini" concept was almost closer to a personal workstation (although e.g. Encores/SEL's are certainly superminis) but these often became departmental superminis well outfitted with high performance Japanese (Fujitsu) peripherals not the crufty old Massbus-hose type stuff. While I have a lot of respect for a complete 11/70 installation... at the same time all that Massbus stuff was pretty crufty compared to the new much smaller peripherals coming in from the low end by the early 80's. Classic computer collectors (including the E-bay seller) often focus too much on the CPU as defining the environment. Tim. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 09:55:26 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:55:26 -0400 Subject: Any interest in an IBM 5160 XT? In-Reply-To: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net> References: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net> Message-ID: <4EA81F5E.70202@gmail.com> James wrote: > Would anyone on this list be interested in acquiring a working XT? I picked > one up a few years back and just haven't had a whole lot of use for it, so > perhaps there's someone here who would. It's in excellent condition (both > cosmetically and functionally), and I can take pics if anyone has interest. > General specs: > > - 640 KB RAM > - 20 MB hard drive > - 5.25" floppy > - Currently running DOS 3.3a > - Includes IBM 5151 TTL monitor (solid picture without burn-in) Where's it located? Peace... Sridhar From james at slor.net Wed Oct 26 10:03:24 2011 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:03:24 -0400 Subject: Any interest in an IBM 5160 XT? In-Reply-To: References: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net> Message-ID: <022801cc93f0$696e4450$3c4accf0$@slor.net> Good point - sorry about that. I'm in Indianapolis, IN, USA. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SPC > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:49 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Any interest in an IBM 5160 XT? > > It depends of your location. Some of us live in other countries than US, UK or > Germany. > > Regards > SPc. > > 2011/10/26 James > > > Would anyone on this list be interested in acquiring a working XT? I > > picked one up a few years back and just haven't had a whole lot of use > > for it, so perhaps there's someone here who would. It's in excellent > > condition (both cosmetically and functionally), and I can take pics if > > anyone has interest. > > General specs: > > > > - 640 KB RAM > > - 20 MB hard drive > > - 5.25" floppy > > - Currently running DOS 3.3a > > - Includes IBM 5151 TTL monitor (solid picture without burn-in) > > > > Thanks! > > James > > > > From george at rachors.com Wed Oct 26 10:02:46 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:02:46 -0700 Subject: Any interest in an IBM 5160 XT? In-Reply-To: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net> References: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net> Message-ID: <5F159B97-8C7C-4872-AB31-D6CDEE7BAADF@rachors.com> James, You didn't say where you would have to ship this from... George Rachor Hillsboro, Oregon On Oct 26, 2011, at 7:30 AM, James wrote: > Would anyone on this list be interested in acquiring a working XT? I picked > one up a few years back and just haven't had a whole lot of use for it, so > perhaps there's someone here who would. It's in excellent condition (both > cosmetically and functionally), and I can take pics if anyone has interest. > General specs: > > - 640 KB RAM > - 20 MB hard drive > - 5.25" floppy > - Currently running DOS 3.3a > - Includes IBM 5151 TTL monitor (solid picture without burn-in) > > Thanks! > James > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 10:05:59 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:05:59 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, , <4EA72DF7.21522.2D2D23C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> On Oct 26, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/26/2011 12:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The problem is that I'm not sure what "embedded" means any more. Is >> a smartphone with a Cortex A15 4-core processor "embedded"? How >> about an Android Pad? >> >> The distinction is blurring pretty fast. > > Putting full-blown UNIX computers in telephones doesn't change what "embedded" has always meant, or at least implied. The system I'm working on now is built around an ARM7 at 70MHz with 512KB of flash and 32KB of RAM, and that's about as big as I go in the embedded space. It doesn't have file-structured mass storage, nor does it have a user interface in any traditional sense. THAT'S embedded. I think it's a highly subjective term you'll find a lot of people arguing about. My gut-level definition is any computer that's designed not to seem like a computer, which covers any number of industrial control applications, consumer devices that aren't computers (like the army of talking baby toys that are out now), etc. I'd personally make the distinction between "embedded" and "mobile" when there's a screen attached. Of course, where I find the lines blurry are things like the application I mentioned, which was basically a bunch of processing blades. The board (an AMC board, if anyone is familiar) was just a 2"x6" (roughly) board with a big-ass FPGA, a TI DSP (why they insisted on that is anyone's guess) and the PowerPC for housekeeping. It was primarily designated for processing satellite data, with the FPGA doing the heavy DSP lifting and the DSP doing the cellular signal processing. So what do we call that? Maybe it's not embedded, but it's certainly highly specialized hardware and software for a particular task (you could use that board for any number of heavy compute tasks, but it would make a terrible PC or generic server). Just musing, anyway. I feel like going down this taxonomy rabbit hole is as much of a fool's errand as the "speed metal"/"thrash metal"/etc. arguments we'd have in high school. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 11:06:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:06:16 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> On Oct 26, 2011, at 10:10 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> - No interest in these specific items? > > You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend of mine gave > me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him > rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in > my loft for after the divorce... (; Sounds like that divorce is long overdue. Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 11:08:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:08:30 -0700 Subject: Any interest in an IBM 5160 XT? In-Reply-To: <022801cc93f0$696e4450$3c4accf0$@slor.net> References: <021901cc93eb$d1d8b660$758a2320$@slor.net>, , <022801cc93f0$696e4450$3c4accf0$@slor.net> Message-ID: <4EA7CE0E.26160.321578@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2011 at 11:03, James wrote: > Good point - sorry about that. I'm in Indianapolis, IN, USA. If you don't get any tickles here for the box, try flogging it on Erik Klein's VCF. http://www.vintage-computer.com There's strong interest in vintage PCs there. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 11:20:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:20:54 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com>, <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2011 at 11:05, David Riley wrote: > Just musing, anyway. I feel like going down this taxonomy rabbit hole > is as much of a fool's errand as the "speed metal"/"thrash metal"/etc. > arguments we'd have in high school. Exactly. We're a long way from the time that "embedded" meant 68HC11 or 8051-style applications. I know that there's at least one vendor that sticks a Linux system inside what amounts to a 100BaseT female connector. Is it embedded? I'd say so. The absence or presence of file systems is neither here nor there. I wouldn't dispute that a $20 MP3 player, for example, is an embedded application, but there's a file system in there for certain. Operating system? Well, there are OSes that fit inside a low-end PIC. For that matter, there's a version of Linux that runs on a PIC32 ?C. Rabbit-hole indeed. The boundaries are very indistinct. Particularly when someone is talking about internet-connected home refrigerators. Technology has a tendency to obsolete terms of art. On my local Craigslist, there's a seller who advertises a "minicomputer" for sale. It's basically an mobile device with an external keyboard. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 11:41:56 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:41:56 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com>, <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <04BA114E-B3BF-4CFC-9B2C-B966058FC69E@gmail.com> On Oct 26, 2011, at 12:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Operating system? Well, there are OSes that fit inside a low-end > PIC. For that matter, there's a version of Linux that runs on a > PIC32 ?C. To be fair, a "PIC32" is just what Microchip has decided to call its MIPS microcontroller line. It's as much a PIC as an SGI box is (aside from the form factor and reduced RAM; most PIC32s have as many Ethernet interfaces and many times more serial ports than most SGI machines ever did, even if they require external PHYs to talk to the outside world). Not relevant to the discussion, but it hurts my brain a little when I see people talk about PIC32s as somehow related to PICs. They're great micros, but I wish Microchip had called them something else. :-) - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 26 12:06:33 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 26, 11 12:06:16 pm" Message-ID: <201110261706.p9QH6XRX015142@floodgap.com> > An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's the car, right? Chicks dig the car. -- "Batman Forever" --------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 26 12:07:04 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:07:04 -0700 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 12:06 PM -0400 10/26/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Oct 26, 2011, at 10:10 AM, John Many Jars > wrote: > >>> Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >>> - No interest in these specific items? >> >> You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend of mine gave >> me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him >> rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in >> my loft for after the divorce... (; > > Sounds like that divorce is long overdue. > > Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and >passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said >spouses would ever marry someone like that. > > -Dave This is why I made sure my wife had seen my *ENTIRE* collection (including all three storage units I had at the time) before we got married. Furthermore my collection has shrunk in the time we've been married, but that has been by my choice, not because she wanted it to. I often think it bothers me more than it does her. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 26 12:14:27 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:14:27 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Sounds like that divorce is long overdue. > > ?Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and passions of their spouses? ?An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. > It's a mystery to me as well... and I just fixed her damn sewing machine, again... so my repair and programming abilities come in handy around here. I think I'm hard done to. (; She hasn't succeeded, she's just a pain about it. I was trying to figure out how to pick up a PDP in Yorkshire, without her noticing, but I never heard back. I gave my last PDP away, because she refused to let me ship it here from Arizona. I've got an emulated one I built though... so I could play dungeon. It's available on line... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 26 12:24:07 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:24:07 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110261706.p9QH6XRX015142@floodgap.com> References: <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> <201110261706.p9QH6XRX015142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. > > The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the > heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzb0LPM0CDU -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 12:25:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:25:29 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com>, <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA84289.80206@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 12:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Just musing, anyway. I feel like going down this taxonomy rabbit hole >> is as much of a fool's errand as the "speed metal"/"thrash metal"/etc. >> arguments we'd have in high school. > > Exactly. We're a long way from the time that "embedded" meant 68HC11 > or 8051-style applications. I know that there's at least one vendor > that sticks a Linux system inside what amounts to a 100BaseT female > connector. Is it embedded? I'd say so. > > The absence or presence of file systems is neither here nor there. I > wouldn't dispute that a $20 MP3 player, for example, is an embedded > application, but there's a file system in there for certain. Yeah, I really can't disagree with that. That's only how I tend to think of things. One really has to consider them on a case-by-case basis. There's at least one popular MP3 player that will give you a UNIX shell prompt if you frob it just right. (iPod Touch) Kinda like the "what constitutes a minicomputer" debate. Nobody disagrees that, say, PDP-11s are minis, but nobody can coherently tell you why. People who know about this stuff just "know". > Operating system? Well, there are OSes that fit inside a low-end > PIC. For that matter, there's a version of Linux that runs on a > PIC32 ?C. Indeed, 2.11BSD has been ported to PIC32! > Rabbit-hole indeed. The boundaries are very indistinct. > Particularly when someone is talking about internet-connected home > refrigerators. Agreed 100%. > Technology has a tendency to obsolete terms of art. On my local > Craigslist, there's a seller who advertises a "minicomputer" for > sale. It's basically an mobile device with an external keyboard. Yes, that drives me nuts, though I suppose it's unavoidable. Is it Maxim or DalSemi who sells ICs in a package called "Flip Chip"? And no matter what terms of art become obsolete, we are doomed to argue about them here. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 12:26:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:26:14 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <04BA114E-B3BF-4CFC-9B2C-B966058FC69E@gmail.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com>, <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com> <04BA114E-B3BF-4CFC-9B2C-B966058FC69E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA842B6.3040905@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 12:41 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Operating system? Well, there are OSes that fit inside a low-end >> PIC. For that matter, there's a version of Linux that runs on a >> PIC32 ?C. > > To be fair, a "PIC32" is just what Microchip has decided to call its MIPS microcontroller line. It's as much a PIC as an SGI box is (aside from the form factor and reduced RAM; most PIC32s have as many Ethernet interfaces and many times more serial ports than most SGI machines ever did, even if they require external PHYs to talk to the outside world). > > Not relevant to the discussion, but it hurts my brain a little when I see people talk about PIC32s as somehow related to PICs. They're great micros, but I wish Microchip had called them something else. :-) Agreed 100%. I really wish the relevant GCC port maintainers would get their stuff straightened out for that platform. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 26 12:27:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:27:18 -0600 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article , "TeoZ" writes: > I would guess it depends on what you are doing. No shit. > Console developers know that their target platform is not moving at all, so > if they expect the next games to be any better or faster they HAVE to > optimize or wait for the next console (and lose sales). Game development is limited by content creation these days, *NOT* engine optimization. > I have no idea what embedded systems are like these days, [...] I do and the idea that sticking your developers on a resource limited machine will make them produce better code for the embedded environment is stupid and noone does it that way. > If you are programming shareware utilities you might want the code to work > on a large range of machines and operating system versions so code size and > speed might be optimized to work on older slower gear but you also might not > be able to user tools that need specific OS revisions to work. Code size and speed are largely irrelevant to keeping the OS compatability matrix working. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 12:29:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:29:41 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA84385.9030007@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 01:07 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend of mine gave >>> me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him >>> rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in >>> my loft for after the divorce... (; >> >> Sounds like that divorce is long overdue. >> >> Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and >> passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses >> would ever marry someone like that. > > This is why I made sure my wife had seen my *ENTIRE* collection > (including all three storage units I had at the time) before we got > married. Furthermore my collection has shrunk in the time we've been > married, but that has been by my choice, not because she wanted it to. I > often think it bothers me more than it does her. I'll bet it does. My (very nearly-) spouse would be heartbroken if she saw anything she knew to be important to me go away, even if my own priorities had changed. In my case, that's not likely to ever happen (I understand you're pursuing different passions these days), but if it were, she'd take me to have my head examined, because she knows just how much I love my stuff now. She knows that's a part of who I am, and who I've always been. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From nathan at nathanpralle.com Wed Oct 26 12:30:05 2011 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:30:05 -0500 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA8439D.9020602@nathanpralle.com> >> Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and >> passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said >> spouses would ever marry someone like that. >> >> -Dave My wife's been VERY tolerant of The Collection, despite it taking over more than half the basement. But she's also absolutely correct when she points out facts like, "You don't have time to deal with it all....do you really need all of it?" She's right, which is why I'm on a tone-down mode. It's never a major issue in our relationship, just a gentle correction in the way of, "Really? You aren't HONESTLY going to every touch all that. And meanwhile, it's eating up our basement...." Have to say she's right. :) -- *Nathan E. Pralle* Computer Geek www.nathanpralle.com www.philosyphia.com www.twitter.com/NPralle From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 26 12:33:28 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:33:28 -0600 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Steven Hirsch writes: > will arrive in one piece. It doesn't look like anyone in the area is > setup for injected foam packing anymore, and I just don't trust the usual > foam + peanuts anymore - too many broken units over the past few years. I > think UPS and FedEx hired the chimps from the old luggage commercials to > throw packages around during loading. I keep seeing this assertion made, that somehow its all the fault of the rough handling that shipping companies give to the packages and not the fault of the way the unit was packed. I've had many, many heavy terminals and workstations shipped through these packaging companies to my house. In each and every single case, the ones that were damaged during shipping were the ones that were poorly packed. NEVER has an item that had proper packing, even when the box clearly showed signs of rough treatment, been damaged. My data says its all in how you pack it, NOT whether or not UPS/FedEx hires "chimps" to do the transfer of package from distribution center to truck to delivery location. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Oct 26 12:48:46 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:48:46 +0000 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world Message-ID: <1908681422-1319651316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-54555837-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Dave McGuire said: > Kinda like the "what constitutes a minicomputer" debate. > Nobody disagrees that, say, PDP-11s are minis, Sadly, I've heard many people call PDP-11s mainframes, and go as far as saying DEC was a mainframe company. > but nobody can coherently tell you why. I was thinking about this recently and I can't come up with a definition either. Maybe anything smaller than the smallest mainframe and bigger than the biggest PC? > People who know about this stuff just "know". Agreed. I aplogize for the crudity of this post's formatting (but not the content). Best I can do at the moment, posting as I am from an embedded (mobile) computer that is neither PC, mini, nor mainframe. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 26 12:48:51 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:48:51 -0500 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110261749.p9QHnWqb017468@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:06 AM 10/26/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. Having forever solved the Windows vs. Anything debate, McGuire moves on to resolving issues of the human heart. I've still got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. If the average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead? - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 12:51:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:51:51 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA848B7.20609@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 01:14 PM, John Many Jars wrote: >> Sounds like that divorce is long overdue. >> >> Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. > > It's a mystery to me as well... and I just fixed her damn sewing > machine, again... so my repair and programming abilities come in handy > around here. I think I'm hard done to. (; Yes, it's the same mentality as what we call "fair weather friends" over here, with different specifics. Dunno if you guys have a similar phrase or not. I'm sorry to hear it. :-( > She hasn't succeeded, she's just a pain about it. I was trying to > figure out how to pick up a PDP in Yorkshire, without her noticing, > but I never heard back. I gave my last PDP away, because she refused > to let me ship it here from Arizona. She...refused to LET you? WTF? > I've got an emulated one I built though... so I could play dungeon. > It's available on line... Cool! Where? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 12:55:18 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:55:18 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA84289.80206@neurotica.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com>, <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA84289.80206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <02D4B538-0DB2-49AB-92F3-676B1938FD29@gmail.com> On Oct 26, 2011, at 1:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, that drives me nuts, though I suppose it's unavoidable. Is it Maxim or DalSemi who sells ICs in a package called "Flip Chip"? "Flip chip" is actually a pretty accepted term for IC packaging these days (referring to ICs which attach directly to their package substrate via bumps on the bottom rather than wirebonds). I can see why it'd drive you crazy, though... DEC had theirs before ICs were even a useful product! - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 12:56:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:56:36 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, , <4EA72DF7.21522.2D2D23C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com> <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA849D4.5070306@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 11:05 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> The problem is that I'm not sure what "embedded" means any more. >>> Is a smartphone with a Cortex A15 4-core processor "embedded"? >>> How about an Android Pad? >>> >>> The distinction is blurring pretty fast. >> >> Putting full-blown UNIX computers in telephones doesn't change what >> "embedded" has always meant, or at least implied. The system I'm >> working on now is built around an ARM7 at 70MHz with 512KB of flash >> and 32KB of RAM, and that's about as big as I go in the embedded >> space. It doesn't have file-structured mass storage, nor does it >> have a user interface in any traditional sense. THAT'S embedded. > > I think it's a highly subjective term you'll find a lot of people > arguing about. My gut-level definition is any computer that's > designed not to seem like a computer, which covers any number of > industrial control applications, consumer devices that aren't > computers (like the army of talking baby toys that are out now), etc. > I'd personally make the distinction between "embedded" and "mobile" > when there's a screen attached. > > Of course, where I find the lines blurry are things like the > application I mentioned, which was basically a bunch of processing > blades. The board (an AMC board, if anyone is familiar) was just a > 2"x6" (roughly) board with a big-ass FPGA, a TI DSP (why they > insisted on that is anyone's guess) and the PowerPC for housekeeping. > It was primarily designated for processing satellite data, with the > FPGA doing the heavy DSP lifting and the DSP doing the cellular > signal processing. > > So what do we call that? Maybe it's not embedded, but it's certainly > highly specialized hardware and software for a particular task (you > could use that board for any number of heavy compute tasks, but it > would make a terrible PC or generic server). Yes, this is sorta the point I was trying to make in my earlier email on this thread. We just sorta "know" whether something is "embedded" (or a "minicomputer") or not; the lines aren't quite so sharp these days as Chuck observed. > Just musing, anyway. I feel like going down this taxonomy rabbit > hole is as much of a fool's errand as the "speed metal"/"thrash > metal"/etc. arguments we'd have in high school. Yeah, it's a mess. We're famous for that particular type of mess on this list. ;) People who have never stood in the same room with a minicomputer before have argued about what constitutes one. Fun! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 12:58:05 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:58:05 -0400 Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the subject. I'm > trying to figure out why. ?Is it: > > - My geographical location (Burlington, VT)? Yes... I'm in Ohio. I get to New England once a year or less. > - No interest in these specific items? Partially. If you were across town, the stuff you had was interesting enough for a short drive, but you had nothing that was so stunning to inspire a 1300-mile round-trip ($125 for gas, then there's food and/or lodging on top of that). I did do a road-trip to Ottowa once, for a PDP-8/S. Something of that calibre *does* inspire road trip. The more odd the gear, the longer of a trip becomes thinkable. > If I go to the trouble and expense of buying proper boxes and InstaPak > cushioning, it's going to average about $35-40 per unit for packing - never > mind freight costs. I usually use a rough estimate of $1-$2/lb for domestic freight. I don't know that I would want to pay something for an Ultra-60 _and_ probably double the cost for the freight, but in my part of the country, Sun equipment is not difficult to find either in town or within a couple of hours for free. Those in parts where the equipment is rare may have a different tipping point, but for the most part, those same people are likely to be even further away. As Will said, can you hang on until a Hamfest? Those often attract both casual buyers and perhaps targeted buyers if you get the word out far enough in advance that it could affect attendance. There are also mailing lists like suns-at-home and the DEC-oriented groups on Usenet/Google Groups that are a highly focused audience. Someone there might be willing to pay $100 S&H for something they want and don't already have. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 13:04:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:04:31 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 01:27 PM, Richard wrote: >> I have no idea what embedded systems are like these days, [...] > > I do and the idea that sticking your developers on a resource limited > machine will make them produce better code for the embedded > environment is stupid and noone does it that way. You're right that noone does it that way, but it's not because it's "stupid" (which it isn't), it's because developers don't WANT to work on slow machines. I sure don't. Do you? >> If you are programming shareware utilities you might want the code to work >> on a large range of machines and operating system versions so code size and >> speed might be optimized to work on older slower gear but you also might not >> be able to user tools that need specific OS revisions to work. > > Code size and speed are largely irrelevant to keeping the OS > compatability matrix working. Hardly. Every new function is a potential compatibility nit. Richard, your attitude in the past few days has been even worse than mine, and that's saying something. Is everything ok? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 26 13:37:20 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110261749.p9QHnWqb017468@billy.ezwind.net> from John Foust at "Oct 26, 11 12:48:51 pm" Message-ID: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> > I've still got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. If the > average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their > offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead? elm and vi, as God intended. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This geek BRKs for 6502s. -------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 13:42:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:42:51 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110261749.p9QHnWqb017468@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> <201110261749.p9QHnWqb017468@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EA854AB.7060704@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 01:48 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 11:06 AM 10/26/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. > > Having forever solved the Windows vs. Anything debate, McGuire moves > on to resolving issues of the human heart. Or the "human heartless", in this case! > I've still got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. If the > average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their > offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead? LibreOffice (OpenOffice) works great. For mail and calendaring, there are probably a hundred decent choices now, that'd take some more research. These are just my opinions. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 14:00:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:00:07 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EA858B7.7060807@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 02:37 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I've still got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. If the >> average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their >> offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead? > > elm and vi, as God intended. emacs! ;) [dave ducks] -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:01:37 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:01:37 -0200 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7E96595ABF644C72B08F65EEF88C1A1D@portajara> > elm and vi, as God intended. Or maybe satan... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:02:53 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:02:53 -0200 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> <4EA848B7.20609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9A23A4C5A268497E9E2C3760FF478952@portajara> >> She hasn't succeeded, she's just a pain about it. I was trying to >> figure out how to pick up a PDP in Yorkshire, without her noticing, >> but I never heard back. I gave my last PDP away, because she refused >> to let me ship it here from Arizona. > She...refused to LET you? WTF? I think I'll die alone :oD And HAPPY! :D :D :D (happy happy, joy joy!) From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 26 14:08:37 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:08:37 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <4EA858B7.7060807@neurotica.com> References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> <4EA858B7.7060807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/26/2011 02:37 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> >>> I've still got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. ?If the >>> average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their >>> offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead? >> >> elm and vi, as God intended. > > ?emacs! ?;) > > ? ? [dave ducks] teco -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:18:30 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:18:30 -0500 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <7E96595ABF644C72B08F65EEF88C1A1D@portajara> References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> <7E96595ABF644C72B08F65EEF88C1A1D@portajara> Message-ID: yea gotta be carefull not to become a hoarder... if one finds them selfs swamped make it known who knows someone out there might be looking for something in ur pile so its allways good to keep a runing invintory and said pile somewhat sorted of what you got cause it could come to be a help when u need something they got and u got what they got ect... otherwise things go in the trash and then were left with one less of said item out there to keep our stuff going thus making it that much more harder to find............. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:47:34 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:47:34 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <1908681422-1319651316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-54555837-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <1908681422-1319651316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-54555837-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 13:48, Vintage Coder wrote: > I was thinking about this recently and I can't come up with a definition either. Maybe anything smaller than the smallest mainframe and bigger than the biggest PC? > >> People who know about this stuff just "know". > > Agreed. I recall there was a semi-serious list at some point (possibly here, maybe on a.f.c.): If you can lose a screwdriver in it, it might be a micro. If you can lose a voltmeter in it, it might be a mini. If you can lose a 'scope on a cart in it, it might be a mainframe. There was more to it. Fuzzy memory. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem1 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:56:40 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:56:40 -0500 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> <7E96595ABF644C72B08F65EEF88C1A1D@portajara> Message-ID: <4EA865F8.4090909@gmail.com> Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea gotta be carefull not to become a hoarder... I figure you're not a hoarder unless you can't see the house for the things that you're hoarding ;-) I'm on a promise not to fill the house up with junk - but I've got a workshop, barn, sheds, garage, basement etc. to fill up first before it ever gets to that point :-) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 26 15:21:40 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <9A23A4C5A268497E9E2C3760FF478952@portajara> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Oct 26, 11 05:02:53 pm" Message-ID: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> > > > She hasn't succeeded, she's just a pain about it. I was trying to > > > figure out how to pick up a PDP in Yorkshire, without her noticing, > > > but I never heard back. I gave my last PDP away, because she refused > > > to let me ship it here from Arizona. > > > > She...refused to LET you? WTF? > > I think I'll die alone :oD And HAPPY! :D :D :D Facetiousness aside, I wouldn't mind finding the right girl, settling down and popping out a geek larva or two. But, at 35, I'm ossified enough that I could be just as happy staying the way I am. I don't make any bones about being a nerd. I'm proud of my server room (the converted 2nd small bedroom with A/C and new wiring) and my museum and office (converted 2nd master bedroom). The rest of the house is normal and most of my collection is in storage units that I am gradually consolidating (I have three small units and plan to reduce to two). I don't think it's an unreasonable setup, there's a free bedroom for a kid, and she can do what she wants with the rest of the house. And so much the better if she's a nerd, also. I certainly have no plans to constrain her doing things she enjoys, and I expect the same courtesy. Being married badly is surely a greater agony than being a perpetual bachelor, and being a perpetual bachelor has many advantages. If Ms. Right comes by and is willing, great. If she never comes, I'll still have a lot of fun things to do with my life. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Watch out, Citizens. Marx's tomb is a communist plot. ---------------------- From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:22:04 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:22:04 -0500 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <4EA865F8.4090909@gmail.com> References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> <7E96595ABF644C72B08F65EEF88C1A1D@portajara> <4EA865F8.4090909@gmail.com> Message-ID: if u do at least sort it and make sure its stored properly.......... vsoit does not get recked nothing worse then someone that has all this usefull stuff and lets it get recked cause its not put somewhere proper aka making sure roofs don't leak ect On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> yea gotta be carefull not to become a hoarder... >> > > I figure you're not a hoarder unless you can't see the house for the things > that you're hoarding ;-) > > I'm on a promise not to fill the house up with junk - but I've got a > workshop, barn, sheds, garage, basement etc. to fill up first before it ever > gets to that point :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:44:39 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I did do a road-trip to Ottowa once, for a PDP-8/S. Something of that > calibre *does* inspire road trip. > > The more odd the gear, the longer of a trip becomes thinkable. I can understand that. >> If I go to the trouble and expense of buying proper boxes and InstaPak >> cushioning, it's going to average about $35-40 per unit for packing - never >> mind freight costs. > > I usually use a rough estimate of $1-$2/lb for domestic freight. I > don't know that I would want to pay something for an Ultra-60 _and_ > probably double the cost for the freight, but in my part of the > country, Sun equipment is not difficult to find either in town or > within a couple of hours for free. Those in parts where the equipment > is rare may have a different tipping point, but for the most part, > those same people are likely to be even further away. Free is good. But, in my experience such giveaways are often stripped and/or in poor condition. > As Will said, can you hang on until a Hamfest? Those often attract > both casual buyers and perhaps targeted buyers if you get the word out > far enough in advance that it could affect attendance. There are also > mailing lists like suns-at-home and the DEC-oriented groups on > Usenet/Google Groups that are a highly focused audience. Someone > there might be willing to pay $100 S&H for something they want and > don't already have. In this area? I couldn't give them away at a hamfest. I have been getting a trickle of interest from folks who live within driving distance, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Would love to get them out of here by the time snow comes. Steve -- From barythrin at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 15:46:52 2011 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1319662012.45832.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > I don't think it's an unreasonable setup, there's a free > bedroom for a > kid, and she can do what she wants with the rest of the > house. And so > much the better if she's a nerd, also. I certainly have no > plans to > constrain her doing things she enjoys, and I expect the > same courtesy. "..and where am I suppose to store *my* computer collection?! Hmph! It's all about you isn't it!" Almost as insane as the "computers don't belong in the kitchen" argument. What about a difference of opinion on what systems can act as furniture in the living room? I was able to keep my table top terminal equipment but it did suffer some of the appeal as a sheet was placed over it lol From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 15:48:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:48:18 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <04BA114E-B3BF-4CFC-9B2C-B966058FC69E@gmail.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com>, <04BA114E-B3BF-4CFC-9B2C-B966058FC69E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA80FA2.25566.1323E12@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2011 at 12:41, David Riley wrote: > > On Oct 26, 2011, at 12:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Operating system? Well, there are OSes that fit inside a low-end > > PIC. For that matter, there's a version of Linux that runs on a > > PIC32 ?C. > > To be fair, a "PIC32" is just what Microchip has decided to call its > MIPS microcontroller line. It's as much a PIC as an SGI box is (aside > from the form factor and reduced RAM; most PIC32s have as many > Ethernet interfaces and many times more serial ports than most SGI > machines ever did, even if they require external PHYs to talk to the > outside world). No argument there; a substantial chunk of the PIC32 documentation appears to be cut and paste from the R4000 docs. But also to be fair, Digilent markets a PIC32-based replacement for the AVR-based Arduino, which is pretty much the embodiment of an embedded ?C. In other words, the CPU architecture doesn't define the embeddedness. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:59:17 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:59:17 -0200 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> >> I think I'll die alone :oD And HAPPY! :D :D :D > I don't think it's an unreasonable setup, there's a free bedroom for a > kid, and she can do what she wants with the rest of the house. And so > much the better if she's a nerd, also. I certainly have no plans to > constrain her doing things she enjoys, and I expect the same courtesy. > Being married badly is surely a greater agony than being a perpetual > bachelor, and being a perpetual bachelor has many advantages. If Ms. > Right comes by and is willing, great. If she never comes, I'll still have > a lot of fun things to do with my life. That is the problem, Cameron. At least here in Brazil, it is **very** difficult to find a spouse who is completely deatached from your personal toys. Most of the girls I know think it is junk, and all of them think the toys will be a nuisanse on the marriage (I feel my english today is being terrible, why some days I write such a bad english?). I understand that marrying the girl I'm dating, I'll have no desire for old computers :) But I do like my toys and she finds it boring, but says it would respect and keep my (toys) things untouched. It is a very complicated subject. I still think that it is better to live free and play hard. I don't like when my friends are gathered in our "private" hackerspace, and the wife calls him home RIGHT NOW. I feel that there must be another way of living in a pair. And please, no geek larva, I have too much psycological troubles to transmit to a fork of myself. Better be alone than create another monster Oh my, I feel so lonely, but it is so good to be lonely :D From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 16:08:38 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:08:38 -0400 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> References: <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > It has been done MANY times. Some real incidents, and some urban legends. > > Usually the miscreant is caught due to failing to realize how rapidly the > "receiving" account will grow. > I prefer scams that need a little more legwork. Like this guy: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/412/million-dollar-idea?act=4 (Slacker "solves" Press Your Luck) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 26 15:31:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:31:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Oct 26, 11 10:50:57 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I was referring to holding the faceplate on the CRT, not supporting the CRT= > >> . I plan to replace the metal band, padding with e.g. strapping tape if ne= > >> cessary. Does that make more sense? - Ian > > > > It wworries me, I can tell you that. That metal band is fixed ot the > > glass, it's also deliverately very tight. Somehow it supports the screen > > glass during an implosion, protectggn the viewer. It's not just a mouting > > band for the CRT. > > I haven't seen any metal band (I know what band you mean) on those CRTs > here with "screen rot". The faceplate is just glued in front of the actual How is the CRT mounted? In the HP machiens I've worked on (which would be similar, I think, to the ones we're discuessing -- things like the 9836A, 9836C (colour CRT), 2623 terminal, 9845B, etc), there is a tension band and it carries the mounting lugs for the CRT. I've had the CRts out... > picture tube, and there's a considerable gap between the two (around > 0.5-1cm) at the outer edges that is filled with said filler/glue. I've > only seen some kind of thin (and thus quite weak) adhesive tape around the > border. But I'm only speaking of the CRTs in HP terminals and some other > mid-80s computer monitors (e.g. one from a BASIS-108, containing a Philips > CRT). I think that normally the tension band goes on the inner glass (the actual CRT envelope), the seocnd facepalte is then bonded to the screen area. It shouldn't be necessary to disturb the tension band, should it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 26 16:00:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:00:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 26, 11 12:06:16 pm Message-ID: > Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and > passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses > would ever marry someone like that. This probably expalins why I;m not married, but I agree with you. I think that a parson needs to have some interests in common with their spouse (after all if they have nothing in common, why did they get married?), but it's unlikely they will share _all_ interests. However, they should respect each other's interests and you want to tinker with classic computers while your wife enjoys one of her hobbies I can't see a problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 26 15:56:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:56:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110261706.p9QH6XRX015142@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 26, 11 10:06:33 am Message-ID: > > > An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. > > The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the > heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space. I caught one of mine (Muon) staring intently at a schematic diagram yesterday. What he saw in it, I don;t know, but when he starts repairing things I am going to get worried... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 16:17:42 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <1908681422-1319651316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-54555837-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <1908681422-1319651316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-54555837-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <20111026141634.R64658@shell.lmi.net> > > Kinda like the "what constitutes a minicomputer" debate. > > Nobody disagrees that, say, PDP-11s are minis, > > but nobody can coherently tell > you why. howzbout defining it in terms of how you get it up or down stairs. casters? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 16:20:45 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111026142006.X64658@shell.lmi.net> I'll call Mike Godwin. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 26 16:22:18 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <1319662012.45832.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from Sam Onella at "Oct 26, 11 01:46:52 pm" Message-ID: <201110262122.p9QLMIWX015784@floodgap.com> > Almost as insane as the "computers don't belong in the kitchen" argument. She'd have kittens over my Twentieth Anniversary Mac on my bedside table. Hey, it looks damn good, and with Classilla and MacSSH is a fine remote terminal. And the Bose audio still sounds great. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Just another Sojourner of the Dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) --------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 16:23:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <9A23A4C5A268497E9E2C3760FF478952@portajara> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> <4EA848B7.20609@neurotica.com> <9A23A4C5A268497E9E2C3760FF478952@portajara> Message-ID: <20111026142312.A64658@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I think I'll die alone :oD And HAPPY! :D :D :D > (happy happy, joy joy!) alone and miserable. just not THAT particular misery. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 16:27:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> <7E96595ABF644C72B08F65EEF88C1A1D@portajara> Message-ID: <20111026142443.P64658@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea gotta be carefull not to become a hoarder... if one finds them selfs > swamped make it known who knows someone out there might be looking for > something in ur pile so its allways good to keep a runing invintory and said > pile somewhat sorted of what you got cause it could come to be a help when u > need something they got and u got what they got ect... otherwise things go > in the trash and then were left with one less of said item out there to keep > our stuff going thus making it that much more harder to find............. We can probably talk you through fixing your "Shift" and comma keys, and solving the bounce problem of your '.' I thought that 'U' was abbreviation for "university". We WILL keep poking at you until you are as much of an old fart as the rest of us. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 19:14:36 2011 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:14:36 -0400 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale References: Message-ID: Most of us on this list are computer professionals, and our most important asset is probably our good name and a reputation for integrity and confidentiality; as such we also often have access to or even first dibs on equipment that's being upgraded or scrapped but is often still quite serviceable and useful once it's been cleaned up, confidential data erased, disks reformatted, etc. Being 'in the business' and having somehow collected 20 or 30 still quite serviceable P4+ systems but having run out of relatives, friends and friends of friends to give them to, I decided to explore and join the local Freecycle group a few weeks ago. After finding a happy new home for some items and also picking up a few items to repair and pass on or keep for myself, the list traffic suddenly stopped; when I inquired I was rudely told that I had been (unjustly) accused off-list of 'stealing' from someone's porch a broken laptop that I had inquired about but that had been promised to someone else, and without any notice or opportunity to respond I had been summarily banned and was even threatened with police involvement. I think as trusted industry professionals we should all ask ourselves whether the risk to our reputation that this sort of thing can have is worth it or if we should just let these items go to Asia or into landfill, and if we do in fact deal with people outside our community we should probably make sure that we maintain a separate identity from our professional one. Has anybody else had any experiences like this, and regretted trying to find new homes for slightly outdated equipment? Comments? mike From jonas at otter.se Wed Oct 26 12:57:34 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:57:34 +0200 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA84A0E.9040807@otter.se> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:03:45 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> > I was referring to holding the faceplate on the CRT, not supporting the CRT= >> > . I plan to replace the metal band, padding with e.g. strapping tape if ne= >> > cessary. Does that make more sense? - Ian > It wworries me, I can tell you that. That metal band is fixed ot the > glass, it's also deliverately very tight. Somehow it supports the screen > glass during an implosion, protectggn the viewer. It's not just a mouting > band for the CRT. Do *NOT* remove the band!! It protects the CRT from implosion by putting compressive stresses on the faceplate, thereby counteracting the tensile stresses produced by the force of the air on it and thus allowing it to stand more stress. The same idea as pre-stressed concrete in other words. If you remove the band you will seriously weaken the CRT. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Wed Oct 26 13:04:03 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:04:03 +0200 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA84B93.20903@otter.se> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:47:13 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Given that there are devices for easily breaking glass that are >> > essentially sharp points, would a jab from a soldering iron be able to >> > implode a CRT? I've done this by accident several times. Before anyone > Possibly. The soldering iron is hot which could set up thermal stresses i > nthe glass too. I do know that soldering to a socket contact while the > socket is plugged onto a CRT or valve can damage the glass-to-metal seal > around the pin, for esample, and is thus a bad idea. Thist doesn't > normally cause an implosion, but... Heat is seriously ungood for CRT glass. It reduces the dielectric strength of the glass which can lead to arcing through the glass. Prolonged arcing will hole the glass, thus venting the vacuum and destroying the tube. Magnetic deflection yokes need to be designed not to run too hot, the glass needs to stay well below 100 degrees C. Above 120 deg C the glass has not much dielectric strength left. /Jonas From greid57 at o2.co.uk Wed Oct 26 13:43:08 2011 From: greid57 at o2.co.uk (greid57 at o2.co.uk) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:43:08 +0100 Subject: embedded processors... References: Message-ID: <54B9440CEB574B079D82C90BC4A8AAD0@gryphon> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 6:00 PM Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 98, Issue 78 >You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend of mine gave >me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him >rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in >my loft for after the divorce... (; (Raises hand) - so would this be an embedded processor? Graham From gdmoisboq at cox.net Wed Oct 26 15:57:09 2011 From: gdmoisboq at cox.net (larry) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:57:09 +0000 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <1908681422-1319651316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-54555837-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4EA87425.7060109@cox.net> On 10/26/11 19:47, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 13:48, Vintage Coder wrote: >> I was thinking about this recently and I can't come up with a definition either. Maybe anything smaller than the smallest mainframe and bigger than the biggest PC? >> >>> People who know about this stuff just "know". >> >> Agreed. > > I recall there was a semi-serious list at some point (possibly here, > maybe on a.f.c.): > > If you can lose a screwdriver in it, it might be a micro. > If you can lose a voltmeter in it, it might be a mini. > If you can lose a 'scope on a cart in it, it might be a mainframe. > > There was more to it. Fuzzy memory. > Back around 1980, the criteria DoD used: under USD 100K - micro under USD 1M - mini over USD 1M - mainframe this was based on purchase price, since many systems were leased. Just about every industry had its own criteria - usually an arbitrary definition by either the bean counters or management. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 26 16:39:08 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:39:08 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> Message-ID: <4EA87DFC.3070401@philpem.me.uk> On 26/10/11 21:59, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Oh my, I feel so lonely, but it is so good to be lonely :D Hell is, after all, other people. :) Well, that's not true, there are some people I can.. um.. "tolerate", but the vast majority... yeeaaaah... the above rule applies :) I'm fairly certain that the York to Leeds all-stops commuter trains contain the highest number of morons per square metre than any other area of the planet. I've lost count of the number of times I've been told "that's MY seat" in various ways (hint: you can't reserve seats on commuter trains -- only long-distance express trains, and a walk-on ticket doesn't get you a reserved seat *in any situation*). The most common argument? "Don't you know who I am?!" Second most common: "I'm on my way to a very important business meeting, and I need to arrive in a presentable manner." (and you want to sit on a seat which people have no doubt put their muddy feet -- and probably used chewing gum -- on? WTF?) *sigh* -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 15:36:46 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319575006.19431.YahooMailClassic@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/25/11, Tony Duell wrote: > I am wondering why you bought said old terminals if you had > no use for them. I always loved to tinker. I guess I wasn't imaginative enough at the time to do anymore w/them then what I did (dismantle them, gawk at the insides). I'm not sure what my intentions were, I guess I just saw more computering stuff, and they were cheap, so I said what the hay. It is funny though how little information is (was?) commonly available back then. I think my parents bought my Tandy 2000 a few years earlier, and until I took a 2nd job and earned enough to buy an NEC Multisync II (about 600$ back then, earned that standing guard over Christmas trees for 3 weeks, in not exactly the best of neighborhoods), I played around w/surplus monitors to see if I could get a picture w/the T2K's something less then standard video. And in reality it was all that unstandard. Well, I obtained a gorgeous actual 15" open frame ttl green monitor (Panasonic IIRC), intended for what I don't know, from a place in Massachusetts. What little it would have taken to get it to work, but since I knew next to nothing about electronics and whatnot, I didn't have the guts to tinker too much. Something might explode/implode I must have thought! I asked my goofy Fortran professor, and he rubbed his chin and did everything but give me an answer. You could wander many community colleges to this day and still not get an answer. I probably also read something in Byte or somewhere about altering the trimpots inside a monitor and endangering some part of your body as a result. > > it. I was young (maybe 25), and must have been very > bored. All I noticed > > When I was 25 I was actively preserving PDP11s etc. There was nothing to restore in the case of these terminals I decimated LOL. They worked, just didn't seem to work w/anything I had. Unfortunately. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 15:59:18 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: yes more stuff Re: moving IBM Sys 23/Datamaster, Atari stuff, other... In-Reply-To: <1319503766.88893.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319576358.16135.YahooMailClassic@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> the Atari stuff seems to be spoken for still have the IBM Datamaster and the Hyperion Also have an Eagle-2 (nameplate fell off, probably have it somewhere) + nice green ttl monitor - 25$ + IBM PS/2 Model 25, no k/b, no screen burn that I can see, 20$ + Mac + has screen problems, 10$ + Mac SE, used to boot from h/d, doesn't anymore, very yellow, 15$ + Sony SMC-70g, seemingly working, never connected it to a monitor, 75$ + (3) Blue Mac G4s, one has h/d, NONE have memory or drives, 10$ + can't think of anything else right now From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 19:14:31 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eagle TTL/MDA monitor and generic CGA monitors available Message-ID: <1319588071.26325.YahooMailClassic@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 15$ each plus shippage. Both work well. CGA (Microway or something like that) may need a convergence adjustment though, not egregious, it's easy to do on big monitors, I'm sure it will be on this unit too. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 15:26:16 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319660776.50014.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I doubt there are many areas, even in Vermont, where there isn't a strip mall w/a Staples, TJ Maxx, Pier 1 Imports, Marshalls, etc. You can go in the dumpster behind those stores (yeah I know many have those closed compactors, but not all) in the dead of night and scrounge loads of styrofoam flats. That makes it worthwhile by itself. Cartons can be found, I just picked up a big one (too big in fact) from Loews, got to ship a lathe. Many Loews get these humongous sheets of corrugated cardboard (1 per day) w/the truck shipments, and if nothing else you can utilize that to make your own carton (I've done it). Will need lots of packing tape (can't get decent packing tape anywhere else but Walmart these days), or big staple things. Or twine. You haven't give anyone any idea of what you want for the stuff. None of it is rare by any stretch. I could go for an AIX box eventually, but got tons on my plate at the moment. Why would I drive to Vermont to get one? They're on eBay all day long. It is impractical to ship some things, like the 95 lb. monster I put on eBay, where I specified p/u only (and why would I pay eBay's scandalous commission to agree to ship something that's just going to take money out of my pocket). But there are instances where you'll have to ship. Or be prepared to toss it. Nobody wants to get their fingers dirty anymore, or get their pits a little swetty. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Oct 26 16:45:26 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:45:26 -0500 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <20111026142006.X64658@shell.lmi.net> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> <20111026142006.X64658@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA87F76.30705@vaxen.net> On 10/26/11 4:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'll call Mike Godwin. Fred Wins. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 17:12:09 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111026150654.A66256@shell.lmi.net> > > The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the > > heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space. On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I caught one of mine (Muon) staring intently at a schematic diagram > yesterday. What he saw in it, I don;t know, but when he starts repairing > things I am going to get worried... It's a good thing that you caught him! That's a dangerous early warning sign. Most cats seem to prefer model M keyboards, but when they start looking at the screen while they are on the keyboard, watch out. Start checking between his pads for soldering iron burns! Try to redirect him into more harmless activities, such as Danny John-Joules on Red Dwarf. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 17:17:53 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:17:53 +0100 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 26 October 2011 13:40, Toby Thain wrote: > On 26/10/11 3:36 AM, SPC wrote: >> >> Very interesting comment, Rich (and Toby, by the way). >> > > Hi Sergio > > Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries to > put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. > > http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html > (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) > > I haven't read it all yet. Nice article - thanks for that! The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I suspect I am too old & even in my youth I never got much past BASIC. The only Lisp I've been able to follow code in is Dylan, and Dylan seems to be rather moribund... :?( -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 17:18:48 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: References: <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111026151807.T66256@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Jason McBrien wrote: > I prefer scams that need a little more legwork. Like this guy: > http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/412/million-dollar-idea?act=4 > (Slacker "solves" Press Your Luck) Is there a text version of what that's about? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 17:21:15 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:21:15 -0500 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: have u tried any groups that give students in poor areas computers? On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Most of us on this list are computer professionals, and our most important > asset is probably our good name and a reputation for integrity and > confidentiality; as such we also often have access to or even first dibs on > equipment that's being upgraded or scrapped but is often still quite > serviceable and useful once it's been cleaned up, confidential data erased, > disks reformatted, etc. > > Being 'in the business' and having somehow collected 20 or 30 still quite > serviceable P4+ systems but having run out of relatives, friends and > friends > of friends to give them to, I decided to explore and join the local > Freecycle group a few weeks ago. After finding a happy new home for some > items and also picking up a few items to repair and pass on or keep for > myself, the list traffic suddenly stopped; when I inquired I was rudely > told > that I had been (unjustly) accused off-list of 'stealing' from someone's > porch a broken laptop that I had inquired about but that had been promised > to someone else, and without any notice or opportunity to respond I had > been > summarily banned and was even threatened with police involvement. > > I think as trusted industry professionals we should all ask ourselves > whether the risk to our reputation that this sort of thing can have is > worth > it or if we should just let these items go to Asia or into landfill, and if > we do in fact deal with people outside our community we should probably > make > sure that we maintain a separate identity from our professional one. > > Has anybody else had any experiences like this, and regretted trying to > find > new homes for slightly outdated equipment? Comments? > > mike > > From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Oct 26 17:30:19 2011 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:30:19 -0400 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale References: Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15B4A@meow.catcorner.org> Mike Stein said: > I > was rudely told that I had been (unjustly) accused off-list > of 'stealing' from someone's porch a broken laptop that I had > inquired about but that had been promised to someone else, > and without any notice or opportunity to respond I had been > summarily banned and was even threatened with police involvement. > I have been banned from a local to me group because "you don't live here". It is the closest one to me and how they know where I really live is beyond me. I can't get "un-blacklisted". Instead I have to go further out. With a very loose group like freecycle you will always encounter problems. You think the wonks on this list complain about filtering mail? I bet a week doesn't go by without someone on one of the freecycle groups grousing about too much mail, too much noise, how do I get off, etc... Kelly From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 26 17:32:48 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:32:48 -0400 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Stein" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:14 PM Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale > I have used freecycle a few times to give things away or grab some old junk machines. So far I have never had any problems like that, mostly just people wanting something and not showing up to pick it up. There are moderators on those lists and I would be shocked if one didn't contact you about it before kicking you off the list. Also surprising there was conversation about it (must be if somebody told you and it wasn't the person giving away the laptop) and you didn't notice the exchange. Personally I would contact the list mods and try to get my name cleared even if I never intended on using freecycle again (and remind them that accusing somebody of stealing something with no proof is libel). Anything you post on the net under any name can be traced back to you if somebody really wanted to find you (especially law enforcement). From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 18:03:54 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA87425.7060109@cox.net> References: <1908681422-1319651316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-54555837-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> <4EA87425.7060109@cox.net> Message-ID: <20111026155502.N66256@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, larry wrote: > Back around 1980, the criteria DoD used: > under USD 100K - micro > under USD 1M - mini > over USD 1M - mainframe > > this was based on purchase price, since many systems were leased. > Just about every industry had its own criteria - usually an arbitrary > definition by either the bean counters or management. carry - micro handtruck - mini forklift & union moving crew - mainframe lose a screw in it - micro lose a screwdrive in it -mini lose a CE in it - mainframe downtime pisses off somebody - micro downtime pisses of a bunch of people - mini downtime pisses off everybody - mainframe mains outlet - micro mains circuit - mini mains account - mainframe neighbors are amused by your collection of micros neighbors are worried about your collection of minis neighbors are terrifiec of your collection of mainframes wife complains - micros wife leaves - minis wife has not been seen since . . . - mainframes Since the terms were created without ANY objective criteria, they are ALL arbitrary. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 26 18:41:35 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:41:35 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/10/11 6:17 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 26 October 2011 13:40, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 26/10/11 3:36 AM, SPC wrote: >>> >>> Very interesting comment, Rich (and Toby, by the way). >>> >> >> Hi Sergio >> >> Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries to >> put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. >> >> http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html >> (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) >> >> I haven't read it all yet. > > Nice article - thanks for that! > > The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I > suspect I am too old& That can't be true! Lisp's best-kept secret is that it is very simple to get into. Pick up any introductory Lisp or Scheme book (e.g. Programming in Scheme by Eisenberg and Abelson, http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Scheme-Michael-Eisenberg/dp/0894261150 ) or How to Design Programs (online at http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/ ) and you will soon prove this to yourself! --Toby > even in my youth I never got much past BASIC. > The only Lisp I've been able to follow code in is Dylan, and Dylan > seems to be rather moribund... :?( > From doc at vaxen.net Wed Oct 26 18:47:18 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:47:18 -0500 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <20111026155502.N66256@shell.lmi.net> References: <1908681422-1319651316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-54555837-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> <4EA87425.7060109@cox.net> <20111026155502.N66256@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EA89C06.5010600@vaxen.net> On 10/26/11 6:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > neighbors are amused by your collection of micros > neighbors are worried about your collection of minis > neighbors are terrifiec of your collection of mainframes And somewhere between mini and mainframe is where, based on your electric bill, the DEA shows up to inspect your hydroponic garden. This did actually happen to an acquaintance. Doc From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 18:47:21 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:47:21 -0400 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I still monitor Freecycle but its been a while since anything interesting has come up. When I joined, all kinds of cool stuff ranging from old computers to film camera gear to the occasional short film on actual 8 or 16mm film would pop up. For the last year or so, the flow of cool has dried up and been replaced with old clothes (mainly for babies and small children) and small household appliances. Needless to say, I look forward to the day that the yuppie mom set gets bored with Freecyle and moves on to ruin some other place. Maybe Freecycle will become useful again at that point. Mike From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 18:59:19 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:59:19 +0100 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 27 October 2011 00:41, Toby Thain wrote: > On 26/10/11 6:17 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 26 October 2011 13:40, Toby Thain ?wrote: >>> >>> On 26/10/11 3:36 AM, SPC wrote: >>>> >>>> Very interesting comment, Rich (and Toby, by the way). >>>> >>> >>> Hi Sergio >>> >>> Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries >>> to >>> put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. >>> >>> http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html >>> (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) >>> >>> I haven't read it all yet. >> >> Nice article - thanks for that! >> >> The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I >> suspect I am too old& > > That can't be true! Lisp's best-kept secret is that it is very simple to get > into. Pick up any introductory Lisp or Scheme book (e.g. Programming in > Scheme by Eisenberg and Abelson, > http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Scheme-Michael-Eisenberg/dp/0894261150 ) > or How to Design Programs (online at > http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/ ) > and you will soon prove this to yourself! I don't currently have the spare budget for buying books, but I do have a few PDFs: * Common Lisp - A gentle introduction to symbolic computation book * COMMON LISP: An Interactive Approach ... and some elderly text. As I try to read them, I get this sinking feeling after half a dozen pages where what started off making sense quietly and subtly turns to word soup. Arithmetic tends to get replaced with gibberish that resembles English but isn't, along the lines of "ah, but if we use a quote, then the we don't get the name of the atom, we get the value." And it quickly starts feeling like /Alice through the Looking Glass:/ ? Alice was walking beside the White Knight in Looking Glass Land. "You are sad." the Knight said in an anxious tone: "let me sing you a song to comfort you." "Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day. "It's long." said the Knight, "but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it - either it brings tears to their eyes, or else -" "Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause. "Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes.'" "Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested. "No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged, Aged Man.'" "Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?" Alice corrected herself. "No you oughtn't: that's another thing. The song is called 'Ways and Means' but that's only what it's called, you know!" "Well, what is the song then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered. "I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting On a Gate': and the tune's my own invention." ? (from http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~nicholson/alice.html) So, now, see, this is a list, but it's also an expression, but if we call it as a function then the expression modifies the atoms in the lisp, but it's still an expression, because all lists are expressions but only some expressions are functions. Some lists are cons but cons can be a list of things, but be careful not to muddle up atoms and conss. You see? Perfectly simple! I find this tends to happen before the page count is in double digits. So tonight, I tried working through some of this with Stephane Tsacas on chat. I tried installing Steel Bank Common Lisp, but every other thing I type generates 10 lines of error messages and takes me into a debugger. Stephane has recommended Allegro Common Lisp, but it doesn't even seem to understand cursor up/cursor down. And don't talk to me about Emacs. I tried and failed to follow the tutorial in 1988 and I'm a lot grumpier and less flexible nowadays than I was then. We shall see. I shall have another try. If I bounce off again, a friend has offered me some Python tuition. Perhaps C21 languages might be less prone to making my aging brain do the 'splodey thing. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 19:03:04 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:03:04 -0700 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > That can't be true! Lisp's best-kept secret is that it is very simple to get > into. Pick up any introductory Lisp or Scheme book (e.g. Programming in > Scheme by Eisenberg and Abelson, > http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Scheme-Michael-Eisenberg/dp/0894261150 ) > or How to Design Programs (online at > http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/ ) > and you will soon prove this to yourself! > Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (Abelson, Sussman) was the first software text book I used in a school course. Editing Scheme using Emacs on a VT-100 on a TOPS-20 system. Those were the days! I didn't learn C until later on my own. -Glen From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 19:04:51 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 01:04:51 +0100 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: "Some elderly text" was meant to say "some elderly textbook", which is in fact this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/LISP-Patrick-Henry-Winston/dp/0201083728/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1319673723&sr=8-3 LISP Second edition Patrick Henry Winston Berthold Klaus Paul Horn I found it on Bookmooch. I think someone recommended it to me. Possibly that crazed Gaul Tsacas again, come to think of it. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 19:22:36 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:22:36 -0400 Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: <1319660776.50014.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319660776.50014.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It's a shame that you need to ditch your entire collection (surely your wife would at least let you keep a favorite machine or two) and I'd love to take some of these off your hands. Sadly, I'm a broke student with no drivers license, so a 3 hour trip (each way) to pick up equipment that I can't afford is out of the question. Still, I might suggest that you post to the "Nekochan" (forums.nekochan.net) message board. Especially if you're willing to reconsider shipping, that would be the place to get in touch with workstation collectors. Mike From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 19:23:05 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: stack of Indigo 2's need to go In-Reply-To: <1319665739.8359.YahooMailClassic@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319665739.8359.YahooMailClassic@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Chris M wrote: > I think I have 6. Teal and Purple Impact 10000s. If you want one, make > some kind of offer. I'd be willing to part out pieces too I guess if > that's what people need I guess. Hey! I get to give mine away first :-). Seriously, best of luck. I know I'll need it. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 19:26:20 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> But, would appreciate hearing from the community with alternate ideas. >> >> It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic recycling. > > If you need to relieve some pressure, perhaps go ahead and junk some > of the more common stuff - the Suns, basically. There are just so many > decent used Ultras kicking around the Northeast and Eastern Seaboard. > There are probably very few people that would drive way up to you for > a machine they could get in their back yards. I've actually had a few nibbles, incredibly enough. I'm looking for someone in the area who actually knows how to pack. > And even the DEC stuff will be hard to find homes for, with DECland > being just a few hours away. > > Can you hang onto the stuff until the April MIT Flea? That may happen by default, but I hope not to have it here then. Steve -- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 20:07:59 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:07:59 -0500 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale In-Reply-To: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15B4A@meow.catcorner.org> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15B4A@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <4EA8AEEF.9030400@gmail.com> Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: > Mike Stein said: >> I >> was rudely told that I had been (unjustly) accused off-list >> of 'stealing' from someone's porch a broken laptop that I had >> inquired about but that had been promised to someone else, >> and without any notice or opportunity to respond I had been >> summarily banned and was even threatened with police involvement. >> > I have been banned from a local to me group because "you don't live > here". It is the closest one to me and how they know where I really live > is beyond me. I can't get "un-blacklisted". I've found the quality of the lists varies a lot from place to place. The Cambridge one was excellent - prompt moderator response, people adhered to subject line format, there was a good balance between things being offered and things being asked for etc. At the other end of the scale, my local one these days is a bit of a disaster - and I had trouble getting on that one at all because I had I .co.uk address at the time I signed up, so hit the "you don't live here" problem. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 20:10:34 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:10:34 -0500 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA8AF8A.90501@gmail.com> Michael Kerpan wrote: > I still monitor Freecycle but its been a while since anything > interesting has come up. When I joined, all kinds of cool stuff > ranging from old computers to film camera gear to the occasional short > film on actual 8 or 16mm film would pop up. For the last year or so, > the flow of cool has dried up and been replaced with old clothes > (mainly for babies and small children) and small household appliances. > Needless to say, I look forward to the day that the yuppie mom set > gets bored with Freecyle and moves on to ruin some other place. Maybe > Freecycle will become useful again at that point. Economies everywhere are in the crapper, and everyone's looking to make a quick buck these days - I suspect that a fair proportion of the stuff on my local list gets snapped up by people who immediately list it on ebay. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 26 20:31:52 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:31:52 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA8B488.9040304@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/10/11 8:03 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >> That can't be true! Lisp's best-kept secret is that it is very simple to get >> into. Pick up any introductory Lisp or Scheme book (e.g. Programming in >> Scheme by Eisenberg and Abelson, >> http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Scheme-Michael-Eisenberg/dp/0894261150 ) >> or How to Design Programs (online at >> http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/ ) >> and you will soon prove this to yourself! >> > > Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (Abelson, Sussman) > was the first software text book I used in a school course. Editing > Scheme using Emacs on a VT-100 on a TOPS-20 system. Doesn't get much more awesome than that :) > Those were the > days! I didn't learn C until later on my own. I wish I'd learned Scheme first, then C. SICP is an important book - I am working my way through it myself - but I deliberately didn't recommend it to Liam, as it would perhaps not be very helpful to somebody who already feels intimidated by Lisp. --T > > -Glen > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 26 20:41:08 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:41:08 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA8B6B4.4050704@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/10/11 7:59 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 October 2011 00:41, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 26/10/11 6:17 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> On 26 October 2011 13:40, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> >>>> On 26/10/11 3:36 AM, SPC wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Very interesting comment, Rich (and Toby, by the way). >>>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Sergio >>>> >>>> Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries >>>> to >>>> put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. >>>> >>>> http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html >>>> (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) >>>> >>>> I haven't read it all yet. >>> >>> Nice article - thanks for that! >>> >>> The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I >>> suspect I am too old& >> >> That can't be true! Lisp's best-kept secret is that it is very simple to get >> into. Pick up any introductory Lisp or Scheme book (e.g. Programming in >> Scheme by Eisenberg and Abelson, >> http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Scheme-Michael-Eisenberg/dp/0894261150 ) >> or How to Design Programs (online at >> http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/ ) >> and you will soon prove this to yourself! > > I don't currently have the spare budget for buying books, but I do > have a few PDFs: > * Common Lisp - A gentle introduction to symbolic computation book > * COMMON LISP: An Interactive Approach > ... and some elderly text. > > As I try to read them, I get this sinking feeling after half a dozen > pages where what started off making sense quietly and subtly turns to > word soup. ... > So, now, see, this is a list, but it's also an expression, but if we > call it as a function then the expression modifies the atoms in the > lisp, but it's still an expression, because all lists are expressions > but only some expressions are functions. Some lists are cons but cons > can be a list of things, but be careful not to muddle up atoms and > conss. You see? Perfectly simple! There is a certain amount of UN-learning required, if your mind has been entrained in the C-like ways. However, you quickly find that the core concepts make a good deal of sense and strip away unnecessary mucking about. (After a while, C's boilerplate for linked lists gets boring, tedious and error-prone compared to manipulating them functionally.) Learning Erlang (as I did a few years ago) softened up the mental pathways for Scheme - it uses the same list representation, and has similar primitives, and practically enforces looping via recursion. While that may sound odd to imperative programmers, people frequently say (of both Erlang and Scheme) that they put the fun back into programming. > > I find this tends to happen before the page count is in double digits. > > So tonight, I tried working through some of this with Stephane Tsacas > on chat. I tried installing Steel Bank Common Lisp, but every other > thing I type generates 10 lines of error messages and takes me into a > debugger. Stephane has recommended Allegro Common Lisp, but it doesn't > even seem to understand cursor up/cursor down. I would advise not to begin with Common Lisp. Start with Scheme, and those two texts I mentioned (one of which is online). I also had planned to dive right into Common Lisp, but on the advice of a wise friend (a CL programmer professionally and functional programming expert) I began with Scheme instead, and I think that was a better method. So, grab an introductory text, and _do the exercises_ :) --Toby > > And don't talk to me about Emacs. I tried and failed to follow the > tutorial in 1988 and I'm a lot grumpier and less flexible nowadays > than I was then. > > We shall see. I shall have another try. If I bounce off again, a > friend has offered me some Python tuition. Perhaps C21 languages might > be less prone to making my aging brain do the 'splodey thing. ;?) > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 26 20:54:23 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I've still got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. If the >> average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their >> offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead? > > elm and vi, as God intended. ITYM Pine or Alpine. HTH. HAND. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 26 20:55:49 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <7E96595ABF644C72B08F65EEF88C1A1D@portajara> References: <201110261837.p9QIbKdA010528@floodgap.com> <7E96595ABF644C72B08F65EEF88C1A1D@portajara> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> elm and vi, as God intended. > > Or maybe satan... > Well. Isn't THAT special? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 26 20:59:40 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> Message-ID: I've got the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer collection around without complaint and an F-15 too! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 26 21:03:19 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:03:19 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EA8B6B4.4050704@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA8B6B4.4050704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA8BBE7.8070404@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/10/11 9:41 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 26/10/11 7:59 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 27 October 2011 00:41, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 26/10/11 6:17 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> ... >>>> The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I >>>> suspect I am too old& >> ... >> I don't currently have the spare budget for buying books, but I do >> have a few PDFs: >> * Common Lisp - A gentle introduction to symbolic computation book >> * COMMON LISP: An Interactive Approach >> ... and some elderly text. >> >> As I try to read them, I get this sinking feeling after half a dozen >> pages where what started off making sense quietly and subtly turns to >> word soup. ... > I would advise not to begin with Common Lisp. Start with Scheme, and > those two texts I mentioned (one of which is online). The implementation I use is Chicken Scheme, which as they say is portable and practical. If you run the interpreter with 'rlwrap' you get command history (cursor up/cursor down) - indispensable for experimentation, really. http://call-cc.org/ You will also need an editor which will help you balance parentheses; vim -l (lisp-mode) will do this. I also use Eclipse with the SchemeWay plugin, depending on my mood. And I use version control to keep track of exercises and puzzles. I find this helps me keep my bearings and feel like I'm moving forward. Try github! --Toby From db at db.net Wed Oct 26 21:22:33 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:22:33 -0400 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale In-Reply-To: <4EA8AEEF.9030400@gmail.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15B4A@meow.catcorner.org> <4EA8AEEF.9030400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111027022233.GD32111@night.db.net> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 08:07:59PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: > >Mike Stein said: ... > The Cambridge one was excellent - prompt moderator response, people adhered > to subject line format, there was a good balance between things being > offered and things being asked for etc. > > At the other end of the scale, my local one these days is a bit of a > disaster - and I had trouble getting on that one at all because I had I > .co.uk address at the time I signed up, so hit the "you don't live here" > problem. I e-mailed my local coordinator about this story. She is one of the saner ones and was not happy to hear about this. It happens, it's the luck of the draw. The problem for us is how do we know before we dive in what the coordinator is like? > > cheers > > Jules - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From brain at jbrain.com Wed Oct 26 21:34:05 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:34:05 -0500 Subject: Non-Gestapo spouses In-Reply-To: References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> Message-ID: <4EA8C31D.5090906@jbrain.com> I'll put mine in the "cool" category as well. She only razzed me a bit that ~15,000# of our recent professional move was my Commodore collection and related items. She did question the expense of attending computer shows a few years back, but suggested that if I could find a way to pay for the travel, there would be no strife. Thus, RETRO Innovations was born. She does laugh a bit as dozens of retro items leave the house in little flat rate boxes each week, but in a "I'll laugh all the way to the bank" way. And, bless her heart, as she looked on my computer and saw the recent C65 eBay listing that topped out at $20.1K, she simply said, "You have two of those, right? We should probably get individual insurance riders on them." No, not a geek. I, for one, am glad. one geek in this abode is all that we need. Jim From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:13:48 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:13:48 -0400 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: <20111026151807.T66256@shell.lmi.net> References: <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> <20111026151807.T66256@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <83F7E6E6-3B1D-461F-81FC-776A618E2D36@gmail.com> On Oct 26, 2011, at 6:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Is there a text version of what that's about? Probably not, but it's definitely worth a listen. It's a pretty good story. If you're having issues with NPR's player and are OK with MP3s, I could probably find the MP3 of the podcast in my archive; they re-ran it a few weeks ago. Of course, if you're one of those people who can't stand This American Life, it may not be the story for you. :-) - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:17:07 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:17:07 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA80FA2.25566.1323E12@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com>, <04BA114E-B3BF-4CFC-9B2C-B966058FC69E@gmail.com> <4EA80FA2.25566.1323E12@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 26, 2011, at 4:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > No argument there; a substantial chunk of the PIC32 documentation > appears to be cut and paste from the R4000 docs. But also to be > fair, Digilent markets a PIC32-based replacement for the AVR-based > Arduino, which is pretty much the embodiment of an embedded ?C. > > In other words, the CPU architecture doesn't define the embeddedness. Absolutely agreed, I was just getting tetchy about the juxtaposition of the talk about little RTOSes for PICs and then Unix on the PIC32. It's a nervous tic I have from working with too many customers whose only experience with micros is the PIC (because they're too lazy to try anything else) and insist on upgrading to a PIC32 because they think it'll be compatible with their existing software base. I know you're smarter than that, but seeing both items together just makes those klaxons start going off in my head... - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:29:14 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:29:14 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110262122.p9QLMIWX015784@floodgap.com> References: <201110262122.p9QLMIWX015784@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <0FFBD813-00D3-4ABF-BEDE-5553FAA8BD43@gmail.com> On Oct 26, 2011, at 5:22 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > She'd have kittens over my Twentieth Anniversary Mac on my bedside table. > Hey, it looks damn good, and with Classilla and MacSSH is a fine remote > terminal. And the Bose audio still sounds great. That reminds me: what did you do to make MacSSH interoperate nicely with modern SSH systems? It seems to to barf on all of mine and I've had a hard time tracing down the problem. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:33:41 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:33:41 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4AD68E73-AFCC-48AE-91C7-F55882D2112B@gmail.com> On Oct 26, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > So tonight, I tried working through some of this with Stephane Tsacas > on chat. I tried installing Steel Bank Common Lisp, but every other > thing I type generates 10 lines of error messages and takes me into a > debugger. Stephane has recommended Allegro Common Lisp, but it doesn't > even seem to understand cursor up/cursor down. SBCL is high-performance, but it's a bit finicky. I've found GNU CLISP to be a pretty easy-to-start environment, at least. You may find a Scheme interpreter to be a bit easier, even; Scheme is basically a very terse dialect of Lisp (I know, I'm oversimplifying, but if you don't know either, it might as well be true). - Dave From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 22:27:34 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 01:27:34 -0200 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> Message-ID: > I've got the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer > collection around without complaint and an F-15 too! :) Epic win! From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 26 22:35:52 2011 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:35:52 -0700 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> Message-ID: On 26 Oct 2011, at 6:59 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I've got the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer collection around without complaint and an F-15 too! :) Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things: minicomputers, test equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes, metalworking and cabinet shops and an absurd number of impractical automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection of lab equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :) (There's a reason we have 237 acres -- we need the space :P) -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 26 22:36:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:36:17 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA8D1B1.4050003@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 08:03 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (Abelson, Sussman) > was the first software text book I used in a school course. Ohhh yes, one of my favorite books. Great stuff! > Editing > Scheme using Emacs on a VT-100 on a TOPS-20 system. Those were the > days! /me faints -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 26 22:36:35 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:36:35 -0700 Subject: Non-Gestapo spouses In-Reply-To: <4EA8C31D.5090906@jbrain.com> References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> <4EA8C31D.5090906@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4EA8D1C3.6030008@jwsss.com> mine is a sweetheart. She understands, and gets also that there is a lot of value in the "junk". I am completely puzzled by a spouse or family which will destroy an estate which is preserved for 40 or 50 years. Either that or bring in appraisers and auction experts who think that the only thing with real value are used oil cans and junk cars. Cited earlier here is the case on one of the idiot auction programs who missed a very nice Dec cache. Nothing is likely "worthless" to everyone, there probably is a buyer out there for most anything at some price. I know should something happen to me, mine will inform this list among others to please come help. I know that there are those in the LA area who have helped with estates, and hopefully they'd find buyers at fair value for my spouse. Plus hopefully I'll have the toys to play with until then, rather than disposing of them early. Jim On 10/26/2011 7:34 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > I'll put mine in the "cool" category as well. She only razzed me a > bit that ~15,000# of our recent professional move was my Commodore > collection and related items. > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 22:57:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:57:49 -0700 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: <83F7E6E6-3B1D-461F-81FC-776A618E2D36@gmail.com> References: , <20111026151807.T66256@shell.lmi.net>, <83F7E6E6-3B1D-461F-81FC-776A618E2D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA8744D.20525.2BB7CB9@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2011 at 23:13, David Riley wrote: > Of course, if you're one of those people who can't stand This American > Life, it may not be the story for you. :-) The BBC World Service carries TAL periodically and I enjoy hearing it. I really miss "Letter from America". --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 26 22:58:15 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:58:15 -0500 Subject: Integer pennies (was: Re:Spreadsheets) In-Reply-To: <20111026151807.T66256@shell.lmi.net> References: <8724B474-69A7-4385-BB1D-E12EE050BAFB@gmail.com> <20111024121852.E76933@shell.lmi.net> <20111026151807.T66256@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201110270401.p9R412BH036490@billy.ezwind.net> At 05:18 PM 10/26/2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Jason McBrien wrote: >> I prefer scams that need a little more legwork. Like this guy: >> http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/412/million-dollar-idea?act=4 >> (Slacker "solves" Press Your Luck) > >Is there a text version of what that's about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Larson - John From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 26 23:33:41 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <0FFBD813-00D3-4ABF-BEDE-5553FAA8BD43@gmail.com> References: <201110262122.p9QLMIWX015784@floodgap.com> <0FFBD813-00D3-4ABF-BEDE-5553FAA8BD43@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201110270433.AAA20226@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > That reminds me: what did you do to make MacSSH interoperate nicely > with modern SSH systems? It seems to to barf on all of mine and I've > had a hard time tracing down the problem. I know somewhat of ssh, at least if it's ssh v2; I built my own implementation. I'd be happy to do interop testing with you and try to figure out what's wrong. If it _is_ ssh v2, that is. I've never bothered to dig through the code (the only known documentation as far as I can tell) enough to figure out ssh v1. (If you don't know which it is, I can tell as soon as we start doing interop testing.) Mouse From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 27 00:40:58 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Richard wrote: > In article , > Steven Hirsch writes: > >> will arrive in one piece. It doesn't look like anyone in the area is >> setup for injected foam packing anymore, and I just don't trust the usual >> foam + peanuts anymore - too many broken units over the past few years. I >> think UPS and FedEx hired the chimps from the old luggage commercials to >> throw packages around during loading. > > I keep seeing this assertion made, that somehow its all the fault of the > rough handling that shipping companies give to the packages and not the > fault of the way the unit was packed. > > I've had many, many heavy terminals and workstations shipped through these > packaging companies to my house. In each and every single case, the ones > that were damaged during shipping were the ones that were poorly packed. > > NEVER has an item that had proper packing, even when the box clearly > showed signs of rough treatment, been damaged. > > My data says its all in how you pack it, NOT whether or not UPS/FedEx > hires "chimps" to do the transfer of package from distribution center > to truck to delivery location. I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45 pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a forklift through the box. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 01:01:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:01:53 -0700 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote: > I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45 > pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap > to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. > Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of > styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from > packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because > what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of > the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a > forklift through the box. I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very well. The stuff cuts by simply scoring with a utility knife and then bending to snap the section off. Usually provided in 1" thickness. in either 2x8' or 4x8' sheets. It's quite a bit stronger than ordinary sheet stryofoam. --Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 16:48:59 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: stack of Indigo 2's need to go Message-ID: <1319665739.8359.YahooMailClassic@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I think I have 6. Teal and Purple Impact 10000s. If you want one, make some kind of offer. I'd be willing to part out pieces too I guess if that's what people need I guess. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Oct 27 02:21:39 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:21:39 +0100 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <61597AAEF3A44A28878156D48B379B5F@dorsetsweets.local> This reminds me of when I was working for DEC in the mid '70's I was involved in the sale and delivery of among other things LA36's Those of you who collect DEC system's will probably know that the LA36 was a 30cps printing terminal. They were big. About 3' x 2' on top and it stood on its own plinth about 2'6" off the ground. The plinth housed the logic board and the PSU. Each one arrived bolted to its own pallet, a large cardboard box over that followed by a cardboard lid. The box and lid were strapped to the pallet. I used the have to go to the DEC warehouse at Heathrow (London Airport) with the shipping insurance loss adjuster to agree on damaged items. We found one that neither of us could believe. Some Muppet had managed to put a forklift fork right through from front to back. That is to say through the cardboard outer box, the steel front of the plinth, the logic board, the steel rear door and the back of the cardboard box! PS I don?t have an LA36 or an LA180 in my collection. I anybody has a spare on in the UK I'd be interested. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: 27 October 2011 07:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Proper packing (was: Need advice) On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote: > I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45 > pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap > to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. > Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of > styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from > packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because > what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of > the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a > forklift through the box. I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very well. The stuff cuts by simply scoring with a utility knife and then bending to snap the section off. Usually provided in 1" thickness. in either 2x8' or 4x8' sheets. It's quite a bit stronger than ordinary sheet stryofoam. --Chuck From gyorpb at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 03:06:39 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:06:39 +0200 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <4EA87DFC.3070401@philpem.me.uk> References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> <4EA87DFC.3070401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4EA9110F.3010302@gmail.com> On 2011-10-26 23:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm fairly certain that the York to Leeds all-stops commuter trains > contain the highest number of morons per square metre than any other > area of the planet. It's true of commuter trains everywhere, I suspect. Sometimes I miss commuting by train, though: my most gratifying times were when I could collect disdainful looks from suits obviously offended at my jeans-and-t-shirt attire, only to see them removed from the first class compartments when the conductor arrived. My commute lay on an international line, so lots of business travelers clueless about the ticketing system and what sections of the train their tickets allowed them to pick seats on. .tsooJ From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 07:29:15 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote: > >> I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45 >> pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap >> to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. >> Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of >> styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from >> packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because >> what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of >> the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a >> forklift through the box. > > I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box > home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use > extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very > well. The stuff cuts by simply scoring with a utility knife and then > bending to snap the section off. Usually provided in 1" thickness. > in either 2x8' or 4x8' sheets. It's quite a bit stronger than > ordinary sheet stryofoam. I would have thought that material to be overly rigid. Glad to hear that you've had success with it. I'm trying to chase down a source for small quantities of InstPak RT bags. These are gray plastic bags with a two-part foam system inside. You break a capsule at one end by pushing on it and wrap it around the item. It expands and custom-fabricates a corner or end section. They are ~$3-4 each, but the distributors want you to buy them in cartons of 36. Steve -- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 27 07:45:59 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45 >>> pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap >>> to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. >>> Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of >>> styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from >>> packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because >>> what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of >>> the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a >>> forklift through the box. >> >> I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box >> home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use >> extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very >> well. The stuff cuts by simply scoring with a utility knife and then >> bending to snap the section off. Usually provided in 1" thickness. >> in either 2x8' or 4x8' sheets. It's quite a bit stronger than >> ordinary sheet stryofoam. > > I would have thought that material to be overly rigid. Glad to hear that > you've had success with it. > > I'm trying to chase down a source for small quantities of InstPak RT bags. > These are gray plastic bags with a two-part foam system inside. You break a > capsule at one end by pushing on it and wrap it around the item. It expands > and custom-fabricates a corner or end section. > > They are ~$3-4 each, but the distributors want you to buy them in cartons of > 36. I buy most of my packing materials from a shop in Bakersfield that appears to sell them individually. How many do you need? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 08:14:59 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <0FFBD813-00D3-4ABF-BEDE-5553FAA8BD43@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Oct 26, 11 11:29:14 pm" Message-ID: <201110271314.p9RDExD4008522@floodgap.com> > > She'd have kittens over my Twentieth Anniversary Mac on my bedside table. > > Hey, it looks damn good, and with Classilla and MacSSH is a fine remote > > terminal. And the Bose audio still sounds great. > > That reminds me: what did you do to make MacSSH interoperate nicely with > modern SSH systems? Turn off compression. The version of lsh that MacSSH uses seems to have some issues with that. One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only abnormality is the inability to love. -- Anais Nin ---------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 08:25:08 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:25:08 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA84289.80206@neurotica.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA799F9.1020800@neurotica.com>, <68A7B0AF-FE46-460E-B3F6-31B0F8F33354@gmail.com> <4EA7D0F6.3701.3D7016@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA84289.80206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EA95BB4.8060900@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, that drives me nuts, though I suppose it's unavoidable. Is it Maxim > or DalSemi who sells ICs in a package called "Flip Chip"? Also Intel with some Pentium-IIIs. Peace... Sridhar From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 08:32:52 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:32:52 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110271314.p9RDExD4008522@floodgap.com> References: <201110271314.p9RDExD4008522@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Turn off compression. The version of lsh that MacSSH uses seems to have some > issues with that. > > One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source > code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though. Is the source code generally available, or is it closely held? If you're able to e.g. drop it on GitHub or the like, I'd be glad to help where I can; I've got a perfectly-functional 7300 that I used as my main development machine until it got replaced by a G4, and it has the final versions (I think) of MPW and CodeWarrior before they went OS X. I'd love to have build support under MPW as well. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 08:48:27 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: from David Riley at "Oct 27, 11 09:32:52 am" Message-ID: <201110271348.p9RDmRxe016970@floodgap.com> > > Turn off compression. The version of lsh that MacSSH uses seems to have some > > issues with that. > > > > One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source > > code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though. > > Is the source code generally available, or is it closely held? The source is available from what used to be the MacSSH Sourceforge page, but if you run an svn pull against it what you get is mangled AppleSingle crap. I've converted most of it now, though I can't attest for any corruption of the source that I may have missed, so caveat compiler. I'll StuffIt and post it somewhere when I get a chance. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Son, God's going to use you. Until He does, take this pill. -- Mark Lowry -- From cb at kryoflux.com Thu Oct 27 08:53:49 2011 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:53:49 +0200 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB Message-ID: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> Hi all, I wanted to give a little update on our progress making our universal floppy controller KryoFlux even better. For those that have not heard of it - what does it do? - Reads all kinds of floppy disks with a "standard" PC drive (e.g. 3", 3.5", 5.25", 8") - Reads custom formats used by vintage computers like Acorn Electron, Apple, Amstrad CPC, Archimedes, Atari 8-bit, Atari ST, BBC, Commodore 64, Commodore Amiga, MSX, IBM PC, PC-8801, Sam Coupe, Spectrum, E-MU Emulator & Emulator II, DEC RX01 & RX02 - Stores _all_ data present on disk, including custom formats and copy protection (e.g. for preservation / long term storage of original game disks) - Connects comfortably via USB - Track data visualisation built right into the GUI: http://softpres.org/kryoflux:ui:stream-plot - Host software available for Windows, Linux and Mac OS X.It's free for private use! - Hardware schematics are public as well and can be freely used in an private, non-commercial environment. That means the hardware is free as well, you don't have to buy anything to use it. - Pre-built hardware (only EUR 90.-) available for those that can't or don't want to build something on their own. - Already used by hundreds of users as well as archives, museums and libraries all around the globe: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-05/10/british-library-digital-archives How did we make it better? - Now also writes images back to disk. Writing IPF files creates pristine clones of preserved disks long gone before. It also writes data other controllers refuse to write. - Now supports one-pass dumping of "flippy" disks with a modified 5.25" drive. The problem dumping these is explained here: http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3#p1991 , comprehensive video tutorial explains how drives can be modified: http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=253#p2021 - We released the full source code to our own format, IPF, introduced over ten years ago, that stores original data as found on original disks, e.g. custom formats and copy protection. We spent over ten years on preserving games, now KryoFlux brings extended floppy imaging to home users as well. More information is available on our website: http://www.kryoflux.com Or check the trailer if you like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOtwq5eqeuA Can we do better? Please let us know! Best, Chris From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 27 10:19:00 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Christian Kennedy wrote: > > On 26 Oct 2011, at 6:59 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> >> I've got the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer collection around without complaint and an F-15 too! :) > > Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things: > minicomputers, test equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes, > metalworking and cabinet shops and an absurd number of impractical > automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection of lab > equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :) > > (There's a reason we have 237 acres -- we need the space :P) > Well played sir! Well played! *laughs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 27 10:37:19 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:37:19 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <4EA848B7.20609@neurotica.com> References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> <4EA848B7.20609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?She...refused to LET you? ?WTF? Well, I could have put my foot down I suppose. I decided it was a battle not worth fighting... I made sure it was in good hands before I left. >> I've got an emulated one I built though... so I could play dungeon. >> It's available on line... > > ?Cool! ?Where? telnet bbs.cortex-media.info which is my bbs software ... log in and create an account. then select game from the main menu and then 2 for dungeon the system will automatically connect you and create a rsts/e account for you. enjoy! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 27 12:11:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:11:42 -0600 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45 > pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap to > turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. Put it > in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of styrofoam > in that clearance. Basically you're using the bubble wrap for shock absorption. My problem with people using blocks of styrofoam is that they *think* this provides shock absorption when it doesn't. Packing peanuts are superior in this regard. I have had units arrived damaged because people use bricks of styrofoam and think they're providing protection when they aren't. There's a reason people use peanuts and not busted up bricks for shipping. > mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a forklift through the box. There isn't much you can do to protect against this and it will always be a risk. But this isn't typical and not the result of "chimps" tossing your box off the truck. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 27 12:21:08 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:21:08 -0600 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote: > > > I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45 > > pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap > > to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. > > Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of > > styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from > > packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because > > what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of > > the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a > > forklift through the box. > > I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box > home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use > extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very > well. I've received heavy items packed this way that were damaged from shipping because the stiff styrofoam basically transmits forces on the box directly to the object. I've NEVER received damaged heavy items that were cushioned with packing peanuts and no voids. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 13:00:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:00:47 -0700 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2011 at 11:11, Richard wrote: > Basically you're using the bubble wrap for shock absorption. My > problem with people using blocks of styrofoam is that they *think* > this provides shock absorption when it doesn't. Packing peanuts are > superior in this regard. I have had units arrived damaged because > people use bricks of styrofoam and think they're providing protection > when they aren't. There's a reason people use peanuts and not busted > up bricks for shipping. I guess, YMMV. One problem with styro peanuts is that they will allow heavy objects to shift in the package. And that essentially seals the fate of the cargo, once it's been allowed to move in the box. I've shipped CRTs with rigid foam, but with a "balloon" of bagged styro peanuts between the wall of the box and the face of the screen. A partially inflated child's plastic beach ball works similarly. I've received items packed in styro peanuts only and they've been heavily damaged because the object was allowed to move in the box. Once that happens, the momentum of the heavy object becomes the tool of its own destruction. That aspect of the cargo shifting really is the cause of much damage. A local packager here who ships furniture and fine art doesn't use styrofoam blocks or peanuts for valuable stuff. Instead, they construct a "cradle" of wood or laminated corrugated cardboard that firmly holds the object in place. Double- or triple-walled cardboard is used for the box itself; paintings are often boxed in plywood crates. None of this is going to save you from the cowboy forklift driver or the UPS freight handler that allows the object to drop from the loading conveyor belt, however. But again, YMMV. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 27 13:07:11 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <201110271348.p9RDmRxe016970@floodgap.com> References: <201110271348.p9RDmRxe016970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Turn off compression. The version of lsh that MacSSH uses seems to have some >>> issues with that. >>> >>> One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source >>> code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though. >> >> Is the source code generally available, or is it closely held? > > The source is available from what used to be the MacSSH Sourceforge page, but > if you run an svn pull against it what you get is mangled AppleSingle crap. > I've converted most of it now, though I can't attest for any corruption of > the source that I may have missed, so caveat compiler. I'll StuffIt and post > it somewhere when I get a chance. Will that be usable for System 6? That'll be handy once I get the room to properly play with my SE/30 with ethernet. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at vaxen.net Thu Oct 27 13:09:15 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:09:15 -0500 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EA99E4B.5030900@vaxen.net> Richard wrote: > In article <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45 >>> pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap >>> to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. >>> Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of >>> styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from >>> packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because >>> what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of >>> the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a >>> forklift through the box. >> I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box >> home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use >> extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very >> well. > > I've received heavy items packed this way that were damaged from shipping > because the stiff styrofoam basically transmits forces on the box directly > to the object. I've NEVER received damaged heavy items that were > cushioned with packing peanuts and no voids. I have. Peanuts *will* shift if the shipped item is dense, no matter how tightly packed in. Sooner or later the item will be sitting flat on the bottom of the box. Peanuts are horribly unpleasant in other ways - unpacking, disposal, cleanup when they inevitably get loose.... Bubble wrap and styrofoam are my favorite padding, closely followed by *appropriately deployed* ewspaper. Doc Shipley From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 13:09:51 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:09:51 -0400 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 27, 2011, at 1:21 PM, Richard wrote: > I've received heavy items packed this way that were damaged from shipping > because the stiff styrofoam basically transmits forces on the box directly > to the object. I've NEVER received damaged heavy items that were > cushioned with packing peanuts and no voids. My biggest problem with peanuts has been their tendency to move about in the box; perhaps I should wrap a bunch of peanuts around the item so they don't move quite so much? How do you usually get around the fluid dynamic problem? I've found wadded up newsprint to be a surprisingly good packing material (and a great use for old phone books and Digi-Key catalogs during the summer when I'm not using them to start fires). It doesn't shift as much as Styrofoam, though I imagine for extremely heavy objects it would end up compressed too much. - Dave From asc135 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 13:20:06 2011 From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:20:06 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial Message-ID: On Oct 26, 2011, at 4:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Absolutely agreed, I was just getting tetchy about the juxtaposition of the > talk about little RTOSes for PICs and then Unix on the PIC32. It's a > nervous tic I have from working with too many customers whose only > experience with micros is the PIC (because they're too lazy to try anything > else) and insist on upgrading to a PIC32 because they think it'll be > compatible with their existing software base. > Though I've overcome it now (mostly), I had a very strong bias against PIC for many years mainly because of the technologically inbred nature of many of their fans. A few years back I started a new job to work on a project to replace an aging PIC-based door access control module. The new platform had already been selected by the time I started: ColdFire running an RTOS. This was driven mainly by the fact that the new parent company had a commercial line of HVAC controllers based on that processor. Not a bad choice but the dreams of code re-use were mostly unfounded. Interestingly, it turns out one of the reasons I was hired was to backfill the fan-boy who resigned in a huff because a PIC-32 wasn't selected. Amardeep From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 27 13:17:56 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:17:56 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice References: Message-ID: <009901cc94d5$91970440$52695f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice > > > > > An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that. > > > > The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the > > heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space. > > I caught one of mine (Muon) staring intently at a schematic diagram > yesterday. What he saw in it, I don;t know, but when he starts repairing > things I am going to get worried... > > -tony I don't have my own cat, but the neighbours one does love to stop by knowing he will be undisturbed in the back garden. When he wants something he will sit ontop of the bin which is directly by the kitchen window, and watch me (or my parents) whilst meowing for attention! It is the funniest thing I have ever seen. He does get the occasional scrap of chicken, and I'm sure his owner (and anyone else he visits) feeds him well :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 13:33:01 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:33:01 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110271348.p9RDmRxe016970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C4F66AA-D69E-47E8-9FF3-FF2D369AB5CD@gmail.com> On Oct 27, 2011, at 2:07 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> The source is available from what used to be the MacSSH Sourceforge page, but >> if you run an svn pull against it what you get is mangled AppleSingle crap. >> I've converted most of it now, though I can't attest for any corruption of >> the source that I may have missed, so caveat compiler. I'll StuffIt and post >> it somewhere when I get a chance. > > Will that be usable for System 6? That'll be handy once I get the room to properly play with my SE/30 with ethernet. I'll be glad to make sure it does once the source is easily available (and when I have time). I have MacTCP running OK on my SE with Ethernet, but 4MB max memory seems to be a bit too small for almost anything useful (that uses TCP/IP, anyway) to run. MacSSH seems to be particularly troubled and won't even launch under 7 (though it may also be using '020+ instructions, I dunno). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 13:45:45 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:45:45 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC78C3C-3B2A-4F02-A8E5-4AFEB68E7E5C@gmail.com> On Oct 27, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Amardeep S Chana wrote: > Though I've overcome it now (mostly), I had a very strong bias against PIC > for many years mainly because of the technologically inbred nature of many > of their fans. Indeed. It was a great thing in the '90s, when it was pretty much the only one easily available to hobbyists (partly because it was so damn easy to make a bit-banged programmer that hooked to the serial port). I can't imagine why you'd seriously consider it now when the AVR has come such a long way (especially with the XMEGA line, which is even better on power than the MSP430). > A few years back I started a new job to work on a project to replace an > aging PIC-based door access control module. The new platform had already > been selected by the time I started: ColdFire running an RTOS. This was > driven mainly by the fact that the new parent company had a commercial line > of HVAC controllers based on that processor. Not a bad choice but the > dreams of code re-use were mostly unfounded. I love the Coldfire, but it's probably because of my 68k fetish. Really nice stuff, but even the Coldfire+ isn't keeping up with ARM development so well these days. > Interestingly, it turns out one of the reasons I was hired was to backfill > the fan-boy who resigned in a huff because a PIC-32 wasn't selected. We actually did select a PIC32 for a project, but it had nothing to do with it being related in any way to the PIC (which it's not). It just happened to be the only micro available (at the time) which had six UARTs, two CAN interfaces and an SPI interface that could all be used at the same time. It's actually a nice piece of hardware, but people pick (or dismiss) it based on the name a lot more than the merits. The punchline: the customer eventually shot the idea down because they wanted us to add the functionality into the (already overcrowded) FPGA instead because they "didn't want the hassle of maintaining the software". Clearly they've been drinking amnesia potions, because we've done two arduous FPGA projects with them so far, certainly enough for them to recognize the FPGA as more of a headache source than software. As it turned out, we ended up spending $100K in NRE to design in a newer, larger FPGA and it cost about $5-10 more per board (in quantities of 10K+ units; this is the sort of project where they argued us down from better switching regulators to save a few pennies per board). Then the project was canned by the client before we even got to trying to bang more UARTs into the FPGA because of money problems (imagine that). - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 13:46:28 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Oct 27, 11 11:07:11 am" Message-ID: <201110271846.p9RIkSpf009788@floodgap.com> > Will that be usable for System 6? That'll be handy once I get the room to > properly play with my SE/30 with ethernet. I'm pretty sure it needed features of System 7. Upgrade now :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Jesus at a disco: "Help! I've risen and I can't get down!" ----------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 14:05:51 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: <4C4F66AA-D69E-47E8-9FF3-FF2D369AB5CD@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Oct 27, 11 02:33:01 pm" Message-ID: <201110271905.p9RJ5poI013716@floodgap.com> > MacSSH seems to be particularly troubled and won't even launch under 7 > (though it may also be using '020+ instructions, I dunno). It might be. I use it just fine on a IIci running 7.1. However, the IIci has a 50MHz '030 Daystar and 72MB of RAM. :P It does seem that the 68K version is not as well studied as the PPC version. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Seen on hand dryer: "Push button for a message from your congressman." ----- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 14:09:57 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ColdFire was Re: Performance-oriented development blah blah blah In-Reply-To: <4FC78C3C-3B2A-4F02-A8E5-4AFEB68E7E5C@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Oct 27, 11 02:45:45 pm" Message-ID: <201110271909.p9RJ9vvX013656@floodgap.com> > I love the Coldfire, but it's probably because of my 68k fetish. Really > nice stuff, but even the Coldfire+ isn't keeping up with ARM development so > well these days. I've never worked with the ColdFire, but because of my interest in Alpha Micros I've always been curious (near the end of the 68K Alpha Micro phase there were ColdFire-based servers produced -- I presume with some sort of emulation layer for those instructions not supported on ColdFire that were on, say, the '040). How was it to work with compared to a "stock" 68020 or '030? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- No good deed goes unpunished. -- Clare Boothe Luce ------------------------- From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 27 14:11:29 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:11:29 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110271348.p9RDmRxe016970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 7:07 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Will that be usable for System 6? ?That'll be handy once I get the room to > properly play with my SE/30 with ethernet. That reminds me. My SE died. As I used to be the Mac repair guy at ASU, and I say it needs an analog board The problem is I live in England now, and I can't find a European one... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 14:13:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:13:04 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA94AD0.1827.B56AEE@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2011 at 14:20, Amardeep S Chana wrote: > Interestingly, it turns out one of the reasons I was hired was to > backfill the fan-boy who resigned in a huff because a PIC-32 wasn't > selected. Microchip is a very strange outfit when it comes to the PIC32. Like the R4000, programming on the PIC32 is present as JTAG. However Microchip incorporated a rather convoluted version of their SPI protocol that's translated into JTAG on the chip. I'm sure it sells a lot of PICKIT programmers, but otherwise, it's been a mystery to me why this was done. Could it be that JTAG is more or less industry standard for this sort of thing? --Chuck From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Oct 27 15:16:58 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:16:58 -0300 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> Liam, > LISP > Second edition > Patrick Henry Winston > Berthold Klaus Paul Horn > > I found it on Bookmooch. I think someone recommended it to me. > Possibly that crazed Gaul Tsacas again, come to think of it. :?) A previous version of this text, which had a first part about AI (split into a separate book when this version came out), was the reason I didn't drop out of computer science during my first year at the university. > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Artificial-Intelligence-Patrick-Henry-Winston/dp/0201084546/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_3 I had been fascinated by computers since childhood and learned Basic and assembly language while in high school. At the university I met Fortran, Algol and learned Pascal on my own. These were all slight variations of the same thing - computers had become so boring that I considered moving on to electronic musical instruments. My father met an american who was visting Brazil and was reading Patrick's 1977 "Artificial Intelligence" (he wasn't even a computer guy, but had bought the book on a whim to have something to read on the plane). Since computer books were hard to find around here, my father offered to buy the book for twice what it cost so the guy could get another copy when he returned home. When he told me he had bought a book about "some programming language", I thought he had wasted his money because I saw no point in learning the details of yet another variation of Algol. The first part of the book (now http://www.amazon.com/Artificial-Intelligence-3rd-Winston/dp/0201533774) showed me a completely new side of computing (not boring!) and the second part (the book you have) showed how to implement the theory, and it didn't look anything like Algol. Once I saw that things could be different, I quickly learned APL, Forth, Smalltalk, Occam, FP, Prolog and so on. I am not sure that either part of the book by itself would have had the same impact on me, so I think it is a pity that it was split even if each half gained interesting new material. So thanks, Patrick Henry Winston, but most of all thanks John McCarthy! -- Jecel From db at db.net Thu Oct 27 14:21:12 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:21:12 -0400 Subject: ColdFire was Re: Performance-oriented development blah blah blah In-Reply-To: <201110271909.p9RJ9vvX013656@floodgap.com> References: <4FC78C3C-3B2A-4F02-A8E5-4AFEB68E7E5C@gmail.com> <201110271909.p9RJ9vvX013656@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20111027192112.GA46730@night.db.net> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 12:09:57PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I love the Coldfire, but it's probably because of my 68k fetish. Really > > nice stuff, but even the Coldfire+ isn't keeping up with ARM development so > > well these days. > > I've never worked with the ColdFire, but because of my interest in Alpha > Micros I've always been curious (near the end of the 68K Alpha Micro phase > there were ColdFire-based servers produced -- I presume with some sort of > emulation layer for those instructions not supported on ColdFire that were > on, say, the '040). How was it to work with compared to a "stock" 68020 or > '030? I've worked with the ColdFire. We used a BGA package, which is not so much fun for home brewers. It expanded the instructions in the macro assembler and the compilers just had to DTRT. It is/was fast. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 14:28:59 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:28:59 -0700 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> Pretty rare beast but, out of my price range. I guess this would be the time to sell it if you had one. Still that's a lot of money even for a computer 'artifact'. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steve-Jobs-Pixar-Image-Computer-Museum-Quality-Artifact-/180746003615 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 27 14:51:12 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111027124950.V99955@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm trying to chase down a source for small quantities of InstPak RT bags. > > These are gray plastic bags with a two-part foam system inside. You break a > > capsule at one end by pushing on it and wrap it around the item. It expands > > and custom-fabricates a corner or end section. > > They are ~$3-4 each, but the distributors want you to buy them in cartons of > > 36. On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, David Griffith wrote: > I buy most of my packing materials from a shop in Bakersfield that appears > to sell them individually. How many do you need? How do you pack them for shipping? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 27 15:06:48 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <20111027124950.V99955@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> <20111027124950.V99955@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I'm trying to chase down a source for small quantities of InstPak RT bags. >>> These are gray plastic bags with a two-part foam system inside. You break a >>> capsule at one end by pushing on it and wrap it around the item. It expands >>> and custom-fabricates a corner or end section. >>> They are ~$3-4 each, but the distributors want you to buy them in cartons of >>> 36. > On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, David Griffith wrote: >> I buy most of my packing materials from a shop in Bakersfield that appears >> to sell them individually. How many do you need? > > How do you pack them for shipping? I'd probably wrap them in some bubbles to prevent them from going off in the post. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 15:08:51 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:08:51 -0400 Subject: ColdFire was Re: Performance-oriented development blah blah blah In-Reply-To: <201110271909.p9RJ9vvX013656@floodgap.com> References: <201110271909.p9RJ9vvX013656@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <501F6016-3093-4A9D-A323-68BAC06D30C7@gmail.com> On Oct 27, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I love the Coldfire, but it's probably because of my 68k fetish. Really >> nice stuff, but even the Coldfire+ isn't keeping up with ARM development so >> well these days. > > I've never worked with the ColdFire, but because of my interest in Alpha > Micros I've always been curious (near the end of the 68K Alpha Micro phase > there were ColdFire-based servers produced -- I presume with some sort of > emulation layer for those instructions not supported on ColdFire that were > on, say, the '040). How was it to work with compared to a "stock" 68020 or > '030? Well, you're using the past tense; they're still very much alive and well, though generally highly integrated as opposed to standalone processors. Some of the more modern ones have some nice additional MAC (multiply-accumulate) instructions with an extended-range accumulator for e.g. light DSP work. Unfortunately, those MAC instructions are all A-line instructions, so you can't use A-line words to force a trap to the illegal instruction handler (which is how the 68K Mac system did its toolbox calls). It's an "assembly-compatible" 68K variant, which means the opcodes have been shuffled around to optimize silicon area in the decoder, but all the mnemonics are still there aside from a few bits of functionality they decided were unnecessary or extremely seldom-used. Early Coldfires didn't have separate user and supervisor stack pointers like the real 68K, but modern ones all do and I never had to work with any without. It's not object-code compatible with the 68K, but reassembling generally does the trick and most of the SPRs are pretty much the same. It also certainly runs less power than the original parts. The newest Coldfire+ line is designed for super-low power operation, so it runs a handful of ?A at sleep and just a few mA (up to a few hundred, depending on how fast you run) in run mode. It's good for "semi-pro" hobbyist work, i.e. if you have a project that you like enough to make a proper PCB and get it professionally assembled (unless you're just that good at putting on BGAs, which is at least possible with a heat gun), but I honestly think it's a lot easier to get good mileage out of an ARM, especially with cheap open-source dev tools. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 15:28:42 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:28:42 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110271348.p9RDmRxe016970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Oct 27, 2011, at 3:11 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > That reminds me. My SE died. As I used to be the Mac repair guy at > ASU, and I say it needs an analog board > > The problem is I live in England now, and I can't find a European one... I have a copy of the Dead Mac Scrolls and another book in the same vein by Larry Pina. If you want to fix the analog board instead of finding a new one (be very careful, of course), I'd be glad to scan and send a few pages! - Dave From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 15:28:36 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Oct 2011 at 11:11, Richard wrote: > >> Basically you're using the bubble wrap for shock absorption. My >> problem with people using blocks of styrofoam is that they *think* >> this provides shock absorption when it doesn't. Packing peanuts are >> superior in this regard. I have had units arrived damaged because >> people use bricks of styrofoam and think they're providing protection >> when they aren't. There's a reason people use peanuts and not busted >> up bricks for shipping. > > I guess, YMMV. One problem with styro peanuts is that they will > allow heavy objects to shift in the package. And that essentially > seals the fate of the cargo, once it's been allowed to move in the > box. I've shipped CRTs with rigid foam, but with a "balloon" of > bagged styro peanuts between the wall of the box and the face of the > screen. A partially inflated child's plastic beach ball works > similarly. > > I've received items packed in styro peanuts only and they've been > heavily damaged because the object was allowed to move in the box. > Once that happens, the momentum of the heavy object becomes the tool > of its own destruction. Probably 85-90% of my smashed-at-arrival eBay purchases fit that pathology. Vibration and settling causes the unit to migrate against one of the inner surfaces of the box and... that's all she wrote when it drops off the ramp at the next depot. I would trust nothing but a _very_ sturdy box and InstaPak end pieces for shipping, e.g. an Ultra 60. I found some eBay sellers with small quantities of InstaPak bags. If it comes to it, I will go that route. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 15:40:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:40:32 -0700 Subject: ColdFire was Re: Performance-oriented development blah blah blah In-Reply-To: <501F6016-3093-4A9D-A323-68BAC06D30C7@gmail.com> References: <201110271909.p9RJ9vvX013656@floodgap.com>, <501F6016-3093-4A9D-A323-68BAC06D30C7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA95F50.3494.1057DC5@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2011 at 16:08, David Riley wrote: > It's an "assembly-compatible" 68K variant, which means the opcodes > have been shuffled around to optimize silicon area in the decoder, but > all the mnemonics are still there aside from a few bits of > functionality they decided were unnecessary or extremely seldom-used. > Early Coldfires didn't have separate user and supervisor stack > pointers like the real 68K, but modern ones all do and I never had to > work with any without. It's not object-code compatible with the 68K, > but reassembling generally does the trick and most of the SPRs are > pretty much the same. Didn't Motorola start this idea with the 6809? I seem to remember that they advertised it as being "assembly-compatible" with the 6800, even though the instruction sets were very different. --Chuck From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 27 15:48:07 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:48:07 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110271348.p9RDmRxe016970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:28 PM, David Riley wrote: > I have a copy of the Dead Mac Scrolls and another book in the same vein by Larry Pina. ?If you want to fix the analog board instead of finding a new one (be very careful, of course), I'd be glad to scan and send a few pages! > Wow thanks! I'd love to give it a go! (I haven't electrocuted myself in ages...) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:49:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:49:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <1319575006.19431.YahooMailClassic@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 25, 11 01:36:46 pm Message-ID: > > I am wondering why you bought said old terminals if you had > > no use for them. > > I always loved to tinker. I guess I wasn't imaginative enough at the > time to do anymore w/them then what I did (dismantle them, gawk at the > insides). I'm not sure what my intentions were, I guess I just saw more > computering stuff, and they were cheap, so I said what the hay. Now that I can certainly relate to. I've rescued many things that I had no use for _at the time_, many of which have proved useful later. So I'd have probably grabbed said terminals. But I probably wouldn't have thrown rocks at them. > > It is funny though how little information is (was?) commonly > available back then. I think my parents bought my Tandy 2000 a few years I am not convinved it's much better now. OK, we do have the web now, and there are some useful wrb sites, but the number of useful books has certainly decreased. I can remember when there was a bookshop in London that sold IC databooks (and the ARRL publications, and...). It's no more. The booksshps that remain sell a few introductory books, and the course texts for the universisties (many of which are not that useful) and little else. There's nothing to compare with some of the older books that are (sometimes [1]) on my bookshelves. [1] The rest of the time I am reading them, of coruse. And there are plenty of things that I've wanted to find information on where hunting round the web (Google searches, checking fora/mailing lists, etc) ahs found nothing useful (or nothing at all). > earlier, and until I took a 2nd job and earned enough to buy an NEC > Multisync II (about 600$ back then, earned that standing guard over > Christmas trees for 3 weeks, in not exactly the best of neighborhoods), ? I played around w/surplus monitors to see if I could get a picture w/the > T2K's something less then standard video. And in reality it was all that There are many video 'standards'. To misquote Brian Kernighan, every machine shpuld have one of its own :-) > unstandard. Well, I obtained a gorgeous actual 15" open frame ttl green > monitor (Panasonic IIRC), intended for what I don't know, from a place > in Massachusetts. What little it would have taken to get it to work, but > since I knew next to nothing about electronics and whatnot, I didn't > have the guts to tinker too much. Something might explode/implode I must > have thought! I asked my goofy Fortran professor, and he rubbed his chin > and did everything but give me an answer. You;'d prbalby have got more useful infromation talking to a freindly and knowledgeable TV service guy :-) > > You could wander many community colleges to this day and still not get > an answer. I probably also read something in Byte or somewhere about > altering the trimpots inside a monitor and endangering some part of your > body as a result. Very umliley. I suppsose if the modification/tweaks caused the EHT to signifciantly rise, you'd get Xrays which can have an adverse effect on you, but it's not easy to get the EHT to rise by tweaking trimpots. In any case, you check the EHT with a voltmeter (don't you? :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:54:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:54:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EA84A0E.9040807@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 26, 11 07:57:34 pm Message-ID: > Do *NOT* remove the band!! It protects the CRT from implosion by putting > compressive stresses on the faceplate, thereby counteracting the tensile > stresses produced by the force of the air on it and thus allowing it to > stand more stress. > The same idea as pre-stressed concrete in other words. If you remove the > band you will seriously weaken the CRT. Presuambvly a CRT with the band removed is more likely to implode, due to the fact that there are now more stresses in the faceplate. And even if you put it back it'll not be correctly tensioned, so it won't do its job. I agree with you. I'd not try to remvoe or refit that tension band. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:59:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:59:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EA84B93.20903@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 26, 11 08:04:03 pm Message-ID: > Heat is seriously ungood for CRT glass. It reduces the dielectric > strength of the glass which can lead to arcing through the glass. Does the diellectric strength increase back to its original value on cooling again? If so, then this is not really a problem if you happen to heat a CRT part (pin, bit of the envelope) with a soldering iron while working on the device. I'd be much more worried about thermal stresses causing the glass to crack. > Prolonged arcing will hole the glass, thus venting the vacuum and > destroying the tube. Magnetic deflection yokes need to be designed not > to run too hot, the glass needs to stay well below 100 degrees C. Above > 120 deg C the glass has not much dielectric strength left. As an aside., if oyu conenct a glass rod (just about any type of glass will work( in series with a suitable load (an electric fire element, for excample) across the mains, not a lot happens. The glass is a good insulator at room temperature. But if you then heat the glass rod with a bunshn burner or gas blowlamp, it'll start to conduct, and will in fact glow. Often it 'runs away' and gets hot enough to melt. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 15:07:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:07:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: from "Glen Slick" at Oct 26, 11 05:03:04 pm Message-ID: > Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (Abelson, Sussman) > was the first software text book I used in a school course. Editing >From the small part I've read of it, that seems like an excellent book. I really must take the time to read it properly... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 15:26:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:26:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: from "Christian Kennedy" at Oct 26, 11 08:35:52 pm Message-ID: > Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things: > minicomputers, test equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes, > metalworking and cabinet shops and an absurd number of impractical > automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection of lab > equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :) Hang on... Youre wife has an elecron microscope (or several? She doens;'t happen to have an identical twin sister does she???? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 16:19:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:19:18 -0700 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EA96866.31315.128FC71@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2011 at 16:28, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I would trust nothing but a _very_ sturdy box and InstaPak end pieces > for shipping, e.g. an Ultra 60. > > I found some eBay sellers with small quantities of InstaPak bags. If > it comes to it, I will go that route. Another option for really secure packaging is to wrap the item in a plastic bag and use some polyurethane floatation foam (a 2 part pourable mixture). Do the packaging in 2 pours and use some scrap foam blocks to support the object off the bottom of the box. Separate the two pours with a couple of sheets of plastic sheeting. It's not cheap--IIRC, the one-quart size that expands to about 2 cu. ft. costs about USD$40. It should be available at most marine supply outlets, where it's sold as a bulkhead filler. Another althernative would be to find a cooperative home insulation outfit. I've done this once; it worked out well, but the stuff is very messy to clean up. Wear gloves and old clothes because it's very sticky. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 16:42:19 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:42:19 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <4EA80E54.3000900@gmail.com> <2F5FA805-F5EA-45C9-B7D2-D1A4DDF88771@neurotica.com> <4EA848B7.20609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 11:37 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > telnet bbs.cortex-media.info > > then select game from the main menu and then 2 for dungeon Interesting. I've never played it on a RSTS machine - it's an older version where the bank is new and it still has Bob Supnik's name in the paper. Neat. Thanks for sharing. -ethan From asc135 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:20:40 2011 From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:20:40 -0400 Subject: Coldfire (was Re: Performance-oriented development in the commercial) Message-ID: > > I've never worked with the ColdFire, but because of my interest in Alpha > Micros I've always been curious (near the end of the 68K Alpha Micro phase > there were ColdFire-based servers produced -- I presume with some sort of > emulation layer for those instructions not supported on ColdFire that were > on, say, the '040). How was it to work with compared to a "stock" 68020 or > '030? > They're very nice to work with. I wish I'd had the chance to do more than three or four projects with them. As Dave mentioned, the ARM has just overtaken them in price/performance in most areas and since (at least the models I used) didn't have a memory manager they could not run a full Linux. The single process uCLinux was fine, however. But they were just fantastic with MQX, eCos, and ThreadX. For eCos it was the cygwin-based GNU toolchain, an old familiar friend and I appreciated that. For ThreadX it was WindRiver's Diab under Workbench. Decent enough but the Eclipse framework it's based on was a bit piggish at the time. Today's computers should have no problem with it though. The MQX project was done under CodeWarrior which was nice. That was just a board bring-up and Ethernet demo deliverable. Didn't do too much beyond the startup code, RAM Test, and a couple of threads to blink an LED and respond to an echo server. The customer just wanted a ready to go platform to develop their app. Incidentally, there is a relatively cheap way to get into CodeFire development: http://www.dilnetpc.com/dnp0052.htm The nice thing about this kit is the entire CPU module is on a small board with dual-inline pin arrangement that can be mounted on a hobbyist prototype board. They don't have the price listed there but I think it was $130 ~ 160 or so. It came with a working eCos build and tool set so it was quite a value. If you're going to design a custom board you'll also need a BDM JTAG probe which costs $250. It's the only way to program the chip's flash with a boot loader the first time. Amardeep From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Oct 27 17:24:49 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:24:49 -0400 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay Message-ID: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steve-Jobs-Pixar-Image-Computer-Museum-Quality-Artifact-/180746003615 Just trying to connect old mid-80's articles I hadn't thought of in decades, to reality... is this what's described in https://design.osu.edu/carlson/history/PDFs/pixar-image-processor.pdf They describe a $125K price in 1986 dollars for a complete system (e.g. not just the pedestal.) I did some work with ECL based backprojectors in the era immediately before and the VME based stuff with gate arrays and a Sun front end, and then a little later Tahoe front end, was coming in like gangbusters at the time for many of the industrial/medical applications. From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Oct 27 17:25:55 2011 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 23:25:55 +0100 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice - dead mac scrolls In-Reply-To: References: <201110271348.p9RDmRxe016970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EA9DA73.2030002@mac.com> py of the Dead Mac Scrolls and another book in the same vein by Larry Pina. If you want to fix the analog board instead of finding a new one (be very careful, of course), I'd be glad to scan and send a few pages! > Wow thanks! I'd love to give it a go! (I haven't electrocuted myself > in ages...) > > Where in the uk are you.. you can borrow my copy if local Roger From asc135 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:34:44 2011 From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:34:44 -0400 Subject: ColdFire (was Re: Performance-oriented development ...) Message-ID: Chuck Guzis wrote: > Microchip is a very strange outfit when it comes to the PIC32. Like > the R4000, programming on the PIC32 is present as JTAG. However > Microchip incorporated a rather convoluted version of their SPI > protocol that's translated into JTAG on the chip. I'm sure it sells > a lot of PICKIT programmers, but otherwise, it's been a mystery to me > why this was done. Could it be that JTAG is more or less industry > standard for this sort of thing? JTAG is a serial protocol that communicates to one or more chips on a JTAG bus. It is commonly used as the debugging vehicle for some CPU families. It communicates between a host computer and the debug subsystem within a target CPU to allow: 1. Run-time debug and breakpoint operations. 2. Boundary-scan that lets you emulate the CPU for the outside circuit. 3. Flash programming since it can be used to generate memory bus cycles. Vendors often use proprietary serial mechanisms for their pods and JTAG functionality. I would presume this is to make sure you buy their tools. Amardeep From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 17:54:05 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:54:05 -0700 Subject: ColdFire (was Re: Performance-oriented development ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA97E9D.335.17FC220@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2011 at 18:34, Amardeep S Chana wrote: > Vendors often use proprietary serial mechanisms for their pods and > JTAG functionality. I would presume this is to make sure you buy > their tools. My point was that Microchip on the PIC32 takes their ISP protocol and covnerts it on the PIC32 chip to eJTAG, which is used by the original R4000. There are no other programming interfaces, nor is there anything specifically unique to the ISP interface. The decision of Microchip to even bother with ISP is a bit of a head-scratcher. I can program ARM chips just fine with JTAG. Indeed, the PIC32 can be programmed with JTAG, but Microchip doesn't provide support for JTAG programming in their toolkit. More PICKIT sales? --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 27 18:04:09 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:04:09 -0400 Subject: hacking MacSSH - Re: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110271314.p9RDExD4008522@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EA9E369.9080507@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/10/11 9:32 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Turn off compression. The version of lsh that MacSSH uses seems to have some >> issues with that. >> >> One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source >> code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though. > > Is the source code generally available, or is it closely held? If you're able to e.g. drop it on GitHub or the like, I'd be glad to help where I can; I've got a perfectly-functional 7300 that I used as my main development machine until it got replaced by a G4, and it has the final versions (I think) of MPW and CodeWarrior before they went OS X. I'd love to have build support under MPW as well. > I can also help; I keep a 10.4 machine around for MPW (& CW). Agree that MPW build is ideal. --Toby > > - Dave > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 18:33:35 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:33:35 -0500 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have shipped both UPS, Fed-Ex, and many others over the years. For a number of reasons I prefer Fed-Ex. One DEC terminal in particular I ship in a new 24x24x20 box. It weighs between 35-40 pounds and I've shipped dozens over the years. I had a request to ship 3 Fed-Ex ground and thought nothing of it. A week later, I had to ship another and the person at the counter, who I've known for years, asked if one of the last batch was damaged. I said yes, and he replied it was probably because it was shipped ground. I thought about it, and I had never shipped one ground before. I drop off my packages at Fed-Ex and UPS at the terminal. Paul On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Steven Hirsch writes: > >> will arrive in one piece. ?It doesn't look like anyone in the area is >> setup for injected foam packing anymore, and I just don't trust the usual >> foam + peanuts anymore - too many broken units over the past few years. ?I >> think UPS and FedEx hired the chimps from the old luggage commercials to >> throw packages around during loading. > > I keep seeing this assertion made, that somehow its all the fault of the > rough handling that shipping companies give to the packages and not the > fault of the way the unit was packed. > > I've had many, many heavy terminals and workstations shipped through these > packaging companies to my house. ?In each and every single case, the ones > that were damaged during shipping were the ones that were poorly packed. > > NEVER has an item that had proper packing, even when the box clearly > showed signs of rough treatment, been damaged. > > My data says its all in how you pack it, NOT whether or not UPS/FedEx > hires "chimps" to do the transfer of package from distribution center > to truck to delivery location. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 27 18:43:29 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201110272343.TAA05220@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Hang on... Youre wife has an elecron microscope (or several? She > doens;'t happen to have an identical twin sister does she???? ...I was thinking similar things myself... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 27 18:52:41 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201110272352.TAA05338@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > As an aside [...hot glass conducts electricity...] How peculiar! What on earth is acting as the charge carriers? How do things like valve envelopes work? Many of them run quite hot; are they made of glass carefully formulated to not conduct when hot, or what? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 19:10:47 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:10:47 -0400 Subject: Non-Gestapo spouses In-Reply-To: <4EA8D1C3.6030008@jwsss.com> References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> <4EA8C31D.5090906@jbrain.com> <4EA8D1C3.6030008@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > mine is a sweetheart. ?She understands, and gets also that there is a lot of > value in the "junk". ?I am completely puzzled by a spouse or family which > will destroy an estate which is preserved for 40 or 50 years. ?Either that > or bring in appraisers and auction experts who think that the only thing > with real value are used oil cans and junk cars. Ad of course, we all have updated our wills to include our collections, right? I hear crickets... -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 27 19:24:30 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111027172038.E10501@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, David Riley wrote: > My biggest problem with peanuts has been their tendency to move about in > the box; perhaps I should wrap a bunch of peanuts around the item so > they don't move quite so much? How do you usually get around the fluid > dynamic problem? And always cram a lot of peanuts INSIDE the item, particularly monitors, disk drives, etc. > I've found wadded up newsprint to be a surprisingly good packing > material (and a great use for old phone books and Digi-Key catalogs > during the summer when I'm not using them to start fires). It doesn't > shift as much as Styrofoam, though I imagine for extremely heavy objects > it would end up compressed too much. But, always select carefully to make sure that you find newspapers whose content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always welcom in certain states. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 27 19:28:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:28:10 -0400 Subject: Non-Gestapo spouses In-Reply-To: References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> <4EA8C31D.5090906@jbrain.com> <4EA8D1C3.6030008@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4EA9F71A.3020207@neurotica.com> On 10/27/2011 08:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> mine is a sweetheart. She understands, and gets also that there is a lot of >> value in the "junk". I am completely puzzled by a spouse or family which >> will destroy an estate which is preserved for 40 or 50 years. Either that >> or bring in appraisers and auction experts who think that the only thing >> with real value are used oil cans and junk cars. > > Ad of course, we all have updated our wills to include our collections, right? > > > > > > > > I hear crickets... This list is soooo predictable. ;) But yes, I have at least. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 27 20:05:18 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <20111027172038.E10501@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> <20111027172038.E10501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, always select carefully to make sure that you find newspapers whose > content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to > the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland > Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always > welcom in certain states. I remember a story about someone in IBM's packing department who was learning Russian for some reason. When an order came up to go to the FBI or CIA, he packed stuff with old copies of Pravda. That prompted a little investigation. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 27 20:24:07 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:24:07 -0400 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> <20111027172038.E10501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EAA0437.9070107@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/10/11 9:05 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> But, always select carefully to make sure that you find newspapers whose >> content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to >> the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland >> Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always >> welcom in certain states. > > I remember a story about someone in IBM's packing department who was > learning Russian for some reason. When an order came up to go to the FBI > or CIA, he packed stuff with old copies of Pravda. That prompted a > little investigation. > From Ted Nelson's 1984 "Dream Machines/Computer Lib", so marginally on-topic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qu1j0t3/6268985863/ --T From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 20:37:17 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 02:37:17 +0100 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 27 October 2011 21:16, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Liam, > >> LISP >> Second edition >> Patrick Henry Winston >> Berthold Klaus Paul Horn >> >> I found it on Bookmooch. I think someone recommended it to me. >> Possibly that crazed Gaul Tsacas again, come to think of it. ?:?) > > A previous version of this text, which had a first part about AI (split > into a separate book when this version came out), was the reason I > didn't drop out of computer science during my first year at the > university. > >> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Artificial-Intelligence-Patrick-Henry-Winston/dp/0201084546/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_3 > > I had been fascinated by computers since childhood and learned Basic and > assembly language while in high school. At the university I met Fortran, > Algol and learned Pascal on my own. These were all slight variations of > the same thing - computers had become so boring that I considered moving > on to electronic musical instruments. > > My father met an american who was visting Brazil and was reading > Patrick's 1977 "Artificial Intelligence" (he wasn't even a computer guy, > but had bought the book on a whim to have something to read on the > plane). Since computer books were hard to find around here, my father > offered to buy the book for twice what it cost so the guy could get > another copy when he returned home. When he told me he had bought a book > about "some programming language", I thought he had wasted his money > because I saw no point in learning the details of yet another variation > of Algol. > > The first part of the book (now > http://www.amazon.com/Artificial-Intelligence-3rd-Winston/dp/0201533774) > showed me a completely new side of computing (not boring!) and the > second part (the book you have) showed how to implement the theory, and > it didn't look anything like Algol. Once I saw that things could be > different, I quickly learned APL, Forth, Smalltalk, Occam, FP, Prolog > and so on. I am not sure that either part of the book by itself would > have had the same impact on me, so I think it is a pity that it was > split even if each half gained interesting new material. > > So thanks, Patrick Henry Winston, but most of all thanks John McCarthy! Well, thanks for that - encouraging words! I am slowly working through it and it seems fairly readable so far, but then again, if I change tack to Scheme instead, I might need to change books too. And for all that it is praised, I do find /The Little [Lisp|Schem]er/ to be /very/ intimidating. It's straight in at the deep end - no terms defined, nothing. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Oct 27 21:22:33 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 02:22:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <201110272352.TAA05338@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201110272352.TAA05338@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Mouse wrote: >> As an aside [...hot glass conducts electricity...] > > How peculiar! What on earth is acting as the charge carriers? Well, if it's soda-lime glass, then probably the Sodium ions? Alexey From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 27 21:41:43 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <201110272352.TAA05338@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201110280241.WAA06791@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> As an aside [...hot glass conducts electricity...] >> How peculiar! What on earth is acting as the charge carriers? > Well, if it's soda-lime glass, then probably the Sodium ions? I think of glass as being just silicon dioxide. I clearly need to read up on what goes into it! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Oct 27 23:53:27 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:53:27 -0700 Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 manuals archived? Message-ID: <4EAA3547.8050502@mail.msu.edu> Hi all - Just picked up a complete (but rough) IMSAI VDP-80 with what appears to be a complete set of manuals (and a few unlabeled 8" disks which I'll attempt to make images of). Anyone know if these manuals have been digitally archived anywhere? A cursory search doesn't reveal anything promising; This site (http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/d_imsai.html) has them listed (for a price) but that's about the only reference I can find. I don't have any means to scan these in, but I'd love to see them preserved... Thanks, Josh From james at machineroom.info Thu Oct 27 17:37:06 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 23:37:06 +0100 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA9DD12.9040207@machineroom.info> On 27/10/2011 20:28, leaknoil wrote: > Pretty rare beast but, out of my price range. I guess this would be > the time to sell it if you had one. Still that's a lot of money even > for a computer 'artifact'. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steve-Jobs-Pixar-Image-Computer-Museum-Quality-Artifact-/180746003615 > > Sheesh, he's not exactly doing his best to sell it is he? blurred photos, card removed and resting on the bare metal case! hate to think what else it's been though. talk about bandwagon jumping. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Oct 28 05:32:09 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:32:09 +0100 Subject: DEC LN03 Laser Printer Revival - advice sought please Message-ID: <4EAA84A9.6080707@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi folks, I've recently acquired a DEC LN03 laser printer with spare toner and font cartridges. I'm informed it was working a few years ago when last used. Something about it makes me think I better find out more before I turn it on again for the first time. There is a little information on the internet about toner replacement - I was wondering if I could call on collective wisdom to find out what the best course of action is to ensure success when I first hit the power switch. For example, the words toner collection bottle and ozone filter make me think I should know a little more first! Thanks for the help, Mark. From nick.jarmany at quixant.com Fri Oct 28 05:03:28 2011 From: nick.jarmany at quixant.com (Nick Jarmany) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:03:28 +0100 Subject: Seeking advice on shipping an ASR33 Teletype Message-ID: <9FFF1332E11C9E4696D5CDDAF826D66613B18BCD24@EXCCR01STORE.SL.local> I have just managed to purchase a Teletype on Ebay - something I have been yearning to obtain for a long time! However, the item in question is located in Ohio, US and I would like to ship it to Italy. Clearly it will need properly crating up by someone and freighting (I assume by sea?) across the pond to me. The vendor no doubt does not want to get involved in much of this. So, my question to all of you out there is - do any of you know of a shipping company that can package up an item like this suitably and arrange transportation? The ASR33 is (thankfully) complete with all accessories such as stand, paper holder etc. I can probably persuade the vendor to remove these accessories from the main unit, but probably not much more. I am hoping some of you will have faced similar issues and might be able to provide good advice. All recommendations gratefully received! Footnote: Given the nature of this forum I am sure I don't have to explain why I would be purchasing such an item. But as a bit of background I was fortunate to go to a school in SE London (Alleyn's) in the early 70s that had an ASR33 and an acoustic modem link to Queen Mary College (QMC) - a dual ICL 1904S system running QMC Maximop as I remember. I hate to think what the phone bill was like, as the ASR was in use continuously all day every day. This resource created a number of very talented young programmers at the school. One guy wrote a complete Monopoly program in Basic. I learnt a language that fascinated me by its quirkiness - Snobol4 (and Spitbol). I did an 'O' level project that was a line editor program written in Snobol4. In about 1975 the school obtained an IBM card punch machine that was used to prepare batch jobs that were taken by hand to be run on an IBM 360 (I can't remember where). I still remember marvelling at the tall vertical deck of cards being swallowed at a rapid rate by the reader, with forced air being used to separate the cards. Great stuff! We were also donated an Elliot machine (I think it was a 903 from photos I have found on the web) that had a high speed optical paper tape reader and punch sitting on the top. The main machine itself looked like a very large, double width washing machine. Removing the front panels revealed the magnetic core store. The system was booted by entering the initial instructions via toggle switches on the control panel, after which further programs could be loaded by tape. The process of creating and running a program was very tedious, as compiling, linking etc each required the individual program to be loaded and an output tape created that was used as the input to the next stage. This all required continuous use of the desk mounted paper tape winding machine that was hand operated and geared up to enable rapid winding. However, accidents (and broken tape) were a constant danger of using this device. We were always having to make duplicate tapes of Fortran compilers etc. The last arrival at the school was a CDC VDU terminal that had a high speed (I guess a few kbps) synchronous connection to a commercial computer bureau in London that had a major CDC Cyber mainframe, not sure which model? As I remember the company was called "SIA" or something similar. I once visited the control room and marvelled at the control console, which looked like something out of a space ship! Time on this computer was very expensive, so the school had a strict limit on CPU time. Unfortunately all this history came to a sorry end when a fire in the building that housed the computer room destroyed all the equipment - very sad. That's might bit of computing history, and is why I was attracted into the fantastic industry. Nick ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 06:04:30 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 07:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have shipped both UPS, Fed-Ex, and many others over the years. For a > number of reasons I prefer Fed-Ex. > > One DEC terminal in particular I ship in a new 24x24x20 box. It weighs > between 35-40 pounds and I've shipped dozens over the years. I had a > request to ship 3 Fed-Ex ground and thought nothing of it. A week > later, I had to ship another and the person at the counter, who I've > known for years, asked if one of the last batch was damaged. I said > yes, and he replied it was probably because it was shipped ground. I > thought about it, and I had never shipped one ground before. FedEx contracts out their ground service, AFAIK. My experience with them as a recipient has been horrible. They left a badly damaged box unprotected on my steps during a driving rain storm last year. The Amiga 600 survived, the Corvus hard drive was nicely smashed and soaked. I simply could not believe anyone would be that sloppy. Steve -- From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 28 08:21:44 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:21:44 -0500 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201110281322.p9SDMWV7094500@billy.ezwind.net> At 06:04 AM 10/28/2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: >FedEx contracts out their ground service, AFAIK. My experience with them as a recipient has been horrible. They left a badly damaged box unprotected on my steps during a driving rain storm last year. The Amiga 600 survived, the Corvus hard drive was nicely smashed and soaked. I simply could not believe anyone would be that sloppy. UPS has some cheap shipping methods that contract to USPS, too. A few weeks ago I lost a package. I watched the UPS tracking number and was puzzled to see it was set for Saturday delivery to my office. Normally UPS doesn't do that. On Monday the UPS tracking now includes a USPS tracking number that it said it was delivered on Saturday, but there's no sign of it. Saturday was a street festival in my downtown outside my office, with hundreds of people milling about. My security camera confirms the USPS postal carrier dropping the package outside my office building door, two feet from the sidewalk. No one touched it until midnight, when it was swiped by a woman walking her dog. The postmaster said he's told the carriers not to leave packages like this, but said it was "within the carrier's discretion." He said he couldn't understand why the carrier did it. We talked to the carrier, he said oh-shucks-I'm-dumb-don't-know-why, I-won't-do-it-again. No one would take responsibility. Fortunately, Thinkgeek simply shipped a replacement for the $50 order. Three weeks afterwards, I visit a client's office down the block, with the same postal delivery man, there's a USPS-delivered box on the step outside their locked downtown office door. More apropos the topic, within the last year I've been frustrated by some computer rescue methods. It's nice that someone wants to send me an old and rare computer, and I can *try* to explain proper packing and be willing to pay for it, but it's so sad to open the box and see chunks of old computer floating around in the packing peanuts. This year's damaged goods include a Terak RGB monitor and a couple mono Teraks. On the other hand, in another rescue, the person simply dropped everything off at the UPS packing store, handed them $350, and those computers were wonderfully plastic-wrapped, double-boxed, foam blocked, and packed with peanuts. Couldn't have done better myself, and everything was delivered so cleanly the nice new big boxes were easily reused. - John For those outside the US, "UPS" is a private shipping company, "USPS" is the U.S. Postal Service. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 28 09:17:09 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:17:09 -0400 Subject: Seeking advice on shipping an ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: <9FFF1332E11C9E4696D5CDDAF826D66613B18BCD24@EXCCR01STORE.SL.local> References: <9FFF1332E11C9E4696D5CDDAF826D66613B18BCD24@EXCCR01STORE.SL.local> Message-ID: <02f601cc957c$48631c80$d9295580$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Nick Jarmany wrote: > > All recommendations gratefully received! > The typing unit _MUST_BE_ screwed to the base via the shipping screws. Otherwise, it will bounce around and break the plastic cover and possibly itself as well. You will really need someone on site that knows a little about the unit. From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Oct 28 11:53:40 2011 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:53:40 -0700 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 Oct 2011, at 1:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things: >> minicomputers, test equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes, >> metalworking and cabinet shops and an absurd number of impractical >> automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection of lab >> equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :) > > Hang on... Youre wife has an elecron microscope (or several? She doens;'t > happen to have an identical twin sister does she???? We all have our quirks; SEMs and TEMs (and high vacuum stuff in general) is one of hers. I meant it about "heavy equipment" as well; her 5'2", 117 pound self is pretty adept with a backhoe and now she's looking for "something" that's track-laying. I'm not sure the world would survive two of them; our daughter is bad enough :P -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 11:59:59 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:59:59 +0100 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4EA9DD12.9040207@machineroom.info> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> <4EA9DD12.9040207@machineroom.info> Message-ID: On 27 October 2011 23:37, James Wilson wrote: > On 27/10/2011 20:28, leaknoil wrote: >> >> Pretty rare beast but, out of my price range. I guess this would be the >> time to sell it if you had one. Still that's a lot of money even for a >> computer 'artifact'. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steve-Jobs-Pixar-Image-Computer-Museum-Quality-Artifact-/180746003615 >> > Sheesh, he's not exactly doing his best to sell it is he? blurred photos, > card removed and resting on the bare metal case! hate to think what else > it's been though. > talk about bandwagon jumping. Perhaps so, but to the untutored, it's just a dead box. The thought that it might or could still work would take many people aback. Anyway, even at $20K, he's got a bid! 8?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 12:10:45 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:10:45 -0700 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> <4EA9DD12.9040207@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4EAAE215.5060309@gmail.com> On 10/28/2011 9:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 October 2011 23:37, James Wilson wrote: >> Sheesh, he's not exactly doing his best to sell it is he? blurred photos, >> card removed and resting on the bare metal case! hate to think what else >> it's been though. >> talk about bandwagon jumping. > Perhaps so, but to the untutored, it's just a dead box. The thought > that it might or could still work would take many people aback. > > Anyway, even at $20K, he's got a bid! 8?) > Guy on the vintage computer forum contacted him and got this back: "Greetings, I used to be the service manager for both Pixar & Vicom. If you have read anything about the history of Pixar you will know that Steve Jobs decided to sell the HW division to Vicom. This was a sales demo machine that traveled up and down the east coast. This was not a standalone machine, it required a Sun 4 front end to drive. The P2 came standard with (2) boards, (FSP) Video Card, and (CHAP) Channel processor, both are in machine. The monitor has a few scratches as seen in photo and 1 tiny chip on upper corner that can easily be cleaned up. The screw on cover for the back side is missing that covered the boards, almost always discarded after install. This was a working machine several years ago. I spoke to the original P2 SW manager a few months back who ironically now works at Apple. He is still in touch with the HW design engineer so it's might be possible to get this fired up again if someone was willing to deal. My thought is this would be a fantastic acquisition for a museum or private collector to modify so it appears operational using a CD and flat screen playing old Pixar video's. This PIXAR machine is guaranteed to get everyone's attention wherever it's displayed" From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 28 13:18:36 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:18:36 -0700 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 6:37 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy > [snip] > > I am slowly working through it and it seems fairly readable so far, > but then again, if I change tack to Scheme instead, I might need to > change books too. > > And for all that it is praised, I do find /The Little [Lisp|Schem]er/ > to be /very/ intimidating. It's straight in at the deep end - no terms > defined, nothing. > The Little Lisper didn't make much sense to me until after I'd read some "real" books about Lisp (I really like the one DEC published). Just showing someone how to car, cdr and cons isn't all that helpful. :-) -- Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 28 15:16:29 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:16:29 -0700 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4EAAE215.5060309@gmail.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> <4EA9DD12.9040207@machineroom.info> <4EAAE215.5060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EAB0D9D.70808@bitsavers.org> > My thought is this would be a fantastic > acquisition for a museum or private collector to modify so it appears operational using a CD and flat screen playing old Pixar video's. What BS. He contacted us, not realizing we HAVE one on display with the same line. From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Oct 28 16:17:59 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 18:17:59 -0300 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> Ian King wrote, inresponse to Liam Proven: > The Little Lisper didn't make much sense to me until after I'd read some > "real" books about Lisp (I really like the one DEC published). Just showing > someone how to car, cdr and cons isn't all that helpful. :-) -- Ian In fact, Alan Kay talks (in his "Early History of Smalltalk" paper) about how he learned Lisp at the University of Utah like this and completely missed the point. Then he spent a short time at Stanford and learned the deep ideas for the first time. So much so that if you divide languages into broad families, then Smalltalk certainly belongs to the Lisp family. Of course, Scheme *is* Lisp rather than just part of the family. It just isn't Common Lisp. I didn't read the "Structure and Interpretation of Computers Programs" book (SICP) but did watch the online video of the 1986 course which was given at HP. One of the instructors, who was one of the creators of Scheme and so should know better than me, mentions in passing near the beginning that the particular Lisp used in the course is known as Scheme but only uses Lisp to refer to it from then on. I really enjoyed the course, but can't recommend it for everyone. It was amazing to me that they seemed to go rather slowly starting from scratch (supposing that the audience might not even know what programming is) but managed to cover quite a bit of computer science in just 15 hours or so. And in several parts they go deeper than what most students see in four year courses. But the reason it might turn some people off is that the pace is not slow at all - it only seems that way. It is very easy to miss some important detail and be overwhelmed by everything that follows, which can lead people to avoid this stuff in the future. One language of the Lisp family that is often overlooked is Logo. It was created for children and most implementations that were made were very limited, but there is some very good learning material available (most not online, unfortunately). Some of the more advanced material even allows you to see what Lisp is about (the most significant difference between Lisp and Logo to me is that EVAL in Lisp takes an expression and a context in which to execute it while Logo's RUN only takes the expression). http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/products/books.html I am a bit biased since I designed two Logo based computers (1983 and 1999). -- Jecel From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 28 16:09:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:09:39 -0400 Subject: DEC LN03 Laser Printer Revival - advice sought please In-Reply-To: <4EAA84A9.6080707@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4EAA84A9.6080707@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4EAB1A13.4060804@neurotica.com> On 10/28/2011 06:32 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I've recently acquired a DEC LN03 laser printer with spare toner and > font cartridges. I'm informed it was working a few years ago when last > used. > > Something about it makes me think I better find out more before I turn > it on again for the first time. There is a little information on the > internet about toner replacement - I was wondering if I could call on > collective wisdom to find out what the best course of action is to > ensure success when I first hit the power switch. > > For example, the words toner collection bottle and ozone filter make me > think I should know a little more first! > I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's a standard first-gen Ricoh engine. Most (all?) laser printers have a waste toner collection system; with unified drum-and-toner cartridge systems it's usually a part of the toner cartridge. Also, at least the Canon CX engine has an ozone filter, I think the SX and later ones do as well. It's not too weird an animal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 28 16:59:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:59:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seeking advice on shipping an ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: <9FFF1332E11C9E4696D5CDDAF826D66613B18BCD24@EXCCR01STORE.SL.local> from "Nick Jarmany" at Oct 28, 11 11:03:28 am Message-ID: > So, my question to all of you out there is - do any of you know of a shipp= > ing company that can package up an item like this suitably and arrange tra= > nsportation? The ASR33 is (thankfully) complete with all accessories such = > as stand, paper holder etc. I can probably persuade the vendor to remove t= > hese accessories from the main unit, but probably not much more. The problem with shipping an ASR33 (apart from the brittle plastic cover) is that the 'typing unit' -- the main mechanical chassis -- is not fixed down. If you ship it like that, the chassis _will_ come loose, it'll dapage the linkage to the keyboard nad probably wreck the cover (if nothing else. Either fix the chasis down -- there's a hole for a shippling screw on the underside, this is, IIRC, a self-tapping screw similar to those used elsewhere in the typing unit with a large washer, od fince some other way ot tying it down ; or remove the typing unit and ship it saprately. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 28 17:50:19 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:50:19 -0700 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EAB31AB.9000309@brouhaha.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > FedEx contracts out their ground service, AFAIK. Nope, they do it themselves. The ground service was created when they acquired RPS. I haven't found them to be particularly less reliable than their competitors. All of them will damage things that aren't packed sufficiently well. This means that it has to be packed with the expectation that it will be dropped from five feet onto concrete, repeatedly, left in the rain, had a forklift fork poked into it, etc. Usually the only way to get things packaged sufficiently well is to do it yourself, based on your past experience with things getting broken. Eric From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 28 20:23:09 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 18:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp calcs part 2 Message-ID: Looking over all the stuff on the HP 35s, I shrugged and bought a used 32sII. Does anyone here know what it would take to get someone at HP to seriously listen to the bug and misfeature complaints and come out with, say, a 35sII that fixes these problems? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Oct 28 20:44:25 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 01:44:25 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/70 Front Panel up for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02D7E3@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA1EEE0.5000107@jetnet.ab.ca> <99DEDDD4-7E3B-4DFD-AA12-780F0FD1E4FC@neurotica.com> <7B3F647E-A99C-42C0-B5A1-46142F327DFB@gmail.com> <4EA6CF44.9000905@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F106@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA030184@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Rick Bensene Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 6:19 AM >>>> I laughed out loud at the "supercomputers" part. Nice machines, but >>>> supercomputers they weren't, even when new. >>> I don't think it could even have been considered the most powerful >>> computers made by DEC, at the time. >> Oh, Hell, no. > There's no doubt that the 11/70 was not a supercomputer in any sense of > the definition. > Wasn't the 11/70 in a class of machines called "supermini" > computers... Nope, not that, either. "Supermini" was a designation given in trade rags like ComputerWorld to the new 32-bit systems coming out from DEC, DG, and other minicomputer manufacturers in packaging that looked like their 16-bit predecessors. It wasn't often, if at all, used in the literature from the manufacturers. An 11/70 was a very nice, large capacity 16-bit minicomputer. There's nothing wrong with that. :-) > machines that were based on the architecture of > minicomputers, but with CPU extensions(e.g., multiple CPU modes[kernel, > supervisor, user]), larger memory capacity(including virtual memory > capabilities), and significantly improved I/O architectures and > bandwidth? I wonder if the poster of the auction on eBay misread > "supermini" and thought "supercomputer"? > I'm probably giving WAY too much benefit of the doubt to the auction > poster. I'm afraid so. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Oct 28 21:15:27 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 02:15:27 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Liam Proven Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 3:18 PM On 26 October 2011 13:40, Toby Thain wrote: >> Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries to >> put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. >> http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html >> (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) >> I haven't read it all yet. > Nice article - thanks for that! I'll second that. Very nice precis. > The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I > suspect I am too old & even in my youth I never got much past BASIC. > The only Lisp I've been able to follow code in is Dylan, and Dylan > seems to be rather moribund... :?( JMC actually used what he called Lisp 2 in his classes, an algebraic notation not unlike Dylan, very Algol-like in flavor. Not surprising, when you think of the relative ages of Lisp and Algol. There are some very good books on Lisp. There is one introductory book on the language which is a lot of fun, _Land of Lisp_ by Barski, in which you learn the language by writing programs like Grand Theft Wumpus (in a chapter entitled "This Ain't Your Daddy's Wumpus"). It's enough to get anyone started in Common Lisp. (I prefer CL's ball-of-mud to Scheme's diamond, to steal the Lisp-is-a-ball-of-mud-APL-is-a-diamond trope from Joel Moses.) I still prefer the first edition of Winston and Horn's _LISP_, which covers several dialects at once, especially MACLISP and InterLISP, but it's dated, so go with the 2nd or 3rd instead. Wade Hennessey's _Common Lisp_ is pretty good, too. These are all from the early days of CL, before it got as big as Ubuntu or RedHat. The way I *really* learned Lisp was by looking at toy implementations, especially one written in Pascal. That was back in the early or mid 1980s, way before the Web, so I don't remember where it was published. I read the paper in the Math library @ Stanford (which no longer has a lot of the old working papers collection on paper, just on fiche where it's a lot harder to browse). If you like, I can send you the source to my variant, or make it publicly readable on the Toad-1 at the museum. If you get access JMC's 1960 paper in ACM, read it. The APPLY function which Paul Graham skips in his precis is a wonder in itself, and is the reason that LISP 1.5 and InterLISP are "evalquote" while PDP-1 LISP, MACLISP, CL & Scheme are "eval": The evaluation loop in the former goes (print (apply (read) (read))) vs. (print (eval (read))) Enough for this evening. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From iamvirtual at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 12:10:18 2011 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:10:18 -0600 Subject: Seeking advice on shipping an ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: <4eaabbc4.8949ec0a.4a00.ffff9b6cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <9FFF1332E11C9E4696D5CDDAF826D66613B18BCD24@EXCCR01STORE.SL.local> <4eaabbc4.8949ec0a.4a00.ffff9b6cSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I had an ASR33 shipped to me from the US. I had the vendor ship the machine in 3 different boxes. The case, base&typing unit, and stand were in separate boxes with plenty of packing. The cost of shipping was high, but the machine arrived in tact. Shipping the machine from Seattle to Calgary was about US$350.00. I would recommend having a piece in a box within a box with plenty of padding between the item and between the inner/outer box should allow the item to survive. The heavier the box, the more likely it will suffer rougher handling. --barrym On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Nick Jarmany wrote: > > > > All recommendations gratefully received! > > > > The typing unit _MUST_BE_ screwed to the base via > the shipping screws. Otherwise, it will bounce > around and break the plastic cover and possibly > itself as well. You will really need someone on > site that knows a little about the unit. > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 28 13:45:34 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319827534.64811.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> it's true things will move around w/peanuts, but couldn't you just put a piece of cardboard between the bottom layer of peanuts (and maybe also around the sides and top) to prevent settling. I used to be concerned about using sytrofoam slabs (which I'm able to get a lot of these days). But the newer kinds are very soft. Several layers will provide adequate protection imho (except for hard drives maybe). You could also create a sandwich, one layer of slab, a layer of peanuts, another slab, etc. I don't like paying for boxes and shipping materials when you can obtain all you want if you grease the right palms. Or dive in the skip. Years ago a guy who was shipping a lot of monitors stated that oftentimes these units would be put on a vibration machine to shake off loose solder and whatnot, and test the units overall integrity. I kind of doubt that's done in general, it sounds more like a mil-spec type test. But it just stands to reason if something can't take a bit of jarring, it's bound to fail somehow anyway. From pinball at telus.net Fri Oct 28 15:00:14 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:00:14 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU Message-ID: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> Has anyone tried to read the data from the Mostek 3851 PSU (ROM, I/O) used with the 3850? I am looking to replace these tiny computers with a modern FPGA or similar... Thanks, John :-#)# From dgunix at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 04:15:35 2011 From: dgunix at gmail.com (Adam - DG/UX) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:15:35 +0200 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <1319827534.64811.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1319827534.64811.YahooMailClassic@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perhaps I'm just being naive here, regarding all of these packaging questions. Can't you just place a huge "fragile - ?handle with care" sticker on the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it? That way all the people along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, instead of just throwing it in the back of the truck. Adam From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Oct 29 04:42:47 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 02:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319881367.86895.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 10/29/11, Adam - DG/UX wrote: > Can't you just place a huge "fragile - ?handle with care" > sticker on > the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it? Parcel carriers will ignore such markings, including "This side up". You may likely find this in their tariffs. You can pay more for expedited handling, but I've never heard of an option to pay more for better handling. You can insure the item, but they'll decline to pay a claim if they deem it improperly packed, which is to say, packed for less than gorilla-style handling. Freight shipments are more flexible in this regard, in that there are specialty carriers and premium classes of service specifically of high-value items like electronics, medical equipment, or artwork. You also have control of orientation when the item is strapped to a pallet, and it is less likely to be dropped. --Bill That way all > the people > along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, > instead of > just throwing it in the back of the truck. > > Adam > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 29 04:44:59 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:44:59 +0200 Subject: hp calcs part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301cc961f$70710770$51531650$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens David Griffith > Verzonden: zaterdag 29 oktober 2011 3:23 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: hp calcs part 2 > > > Looking over all the stuff on the HP 35s, I shrugged and bought a used 32sII. > Does anyone here know what it would take to get someone at HP to seriously > listen to the bug and misfeature complaints and come out with, say, a 35sII that > fixes these problems? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Look at the MOHC site www.hpmuseum.org it's almost cctalk on HP calcs ;-) -Rik From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Oct 29 05:08:34 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 03:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing Message-ID: <1319882914.61781.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 10/28/11, Eric Smith wrote: > From: Eric Smith > Nope, they do it themselves.? The ground service was > created when they acquired RPS. I believe this is true of their commercial ground delivery service, but was told at one time that the FedEx Home Delivery drivers are actually independent contractors. I've mostly had good luck with FedEx Ground shipments, and would even say that I've usually seen less externally-visible indication of rough handling compared to UPS.? There was one egregious incident, however, when a FedEx delivery driver dropped off a TU-56 on my doorstep while I was out of town.? I had specifically asked the shipper to require a direct signature release to preclude such a delivery.? When I checked the tracking paperwork online, my name was signed on the paperwork, undoubtedly forged by the driver. --Bill From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 29 08:32:02 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 09:32:02 -0400 Subject: 1960 paper - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4EAC0052.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/10/11 10:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 3:18 PM > > On 26 October 2011 13:40, Toby Thain wrote: > >>> Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries to >>> put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. > >>> http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html >>> (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) > >>> I haven't read it all yet. > >> Nice article - thanks for that! > > I'll second that. Very nice precis. > >> The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I >> suspect I am too old& even in my youth I never got much past BASIC. >> The only Lisp I've been able to follow code in is Dylan, and Dylan >> seems to be rather moribund... :?( > > JMC actually used what he called Lisp 2 in his classes, an algebraic > notation not unlike Dylan, very Algol-like in flavor. Not surprising, > when you think of the relative ages of Lisp and Algol. > ... > If you get access JMC's 1960 paper in ACM, read it. It's available online http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive.html via his home page, http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/ For history buffs (not so much Lisp learners), there is also Lisp I Programmer's Manual (March 1, 1960) http://history.siam.org/sup/Fox_1960_LISP.pdf --Toby > ... > Enough for this evening. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Oct 29 08:44:00 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:44:00 +0200 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale In-Reply-To: <4EA8AEEF.9030400@gmail.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15B4A@meow.catcorner.org> <4EA8AEEF.9030400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111029134400.GB27488@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 08:07:59PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: > >Mike Stein said: > >>I was rudely told that I had been (unjustly) accused off-list of > >>'stealing' from someone's porch a broken laptop that I had > >>inquired about but that had been promised to someone else, and > >>without any notice or opportunity to respond I had been > >>summarily banned and was even threatened with police > >>involvement. > >> > >I have been banned from a local to me group because "you don't live > >here". It is the closest one to me and how they know where I really live > >is beyond me. I can't get "un-blacklisted". > > I've found the quality of the lists varies a lot from place to place. > > The Cambridge one was excellent - prompt moderator response, people > adhered to subject line format, there was a good balance between > things being offered and things being asked for etc. > > At the other end of the scale, my local one these days is a bit of a > disaster - and I had trouble getting on that one at all because I > had I .co.uk address at the time I signed up, so hit the "you don't > live here" problem. *sigh* As if the email address one uses is any kind of reliable indicator of location. I've got (live, working and read) private email addresses from .de, .ch, .li, .net, $LARGE_SERVICE.com and I currently live in Switzerland. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 29 11:37:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 09:37:57 -0700 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: <1319882914.61781.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1319882914.61781.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EABC975.1917.6AA5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2011 at 3:08, William Maddox wrote: > --- On Fri, 10/28/11, Eric Smith wrote: > > > From: Eric Smith > > > Nope, they do it themselves.? The ground service was > > created when they acquired RPS. > > I believe this is true of their commercial ground delivery service, > but was told at one time that the FedEx Home Delivery drivers are > actually independent contractors. Fedex does take on temporary help (as does UPS) during the heavy Christmas/Festivus holiday season. It's wise to avoid shipping during December if possible. We've had things "disappear" from Fedex distribution centers. --Chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 11:39:27 2011 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 09:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: (but still old tech) CEDs & players available Message-ID: <1319906367.37264.YahooMailRC@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This isn't old computers but still old tech and as I have talked to people on this list about these before I thought I would check here first before dumping them. I have a collection of about 300 CED (old video format similar to an old record) and a couple of players that I want to move out. If anyone here is interested contact me off list. I prefer local pickup as these are VERY HEAVY but if you really want to pay to have them shipped then I might consider it for a few dollars more. I don't have a current list of the movies and am not interested in parting it out, just want to move them on out. Thanks. ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 12:45:21 2011 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 10:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: (but still old tech) CEDs & players available In-Reply-To: <1319906367.37264.YahooMailRC@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1319906367.37264.YahooMailRC@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319910321.39083.YahooMailRC@web81003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Forgot to say that these are located in Houston, TX. ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 29 14:10:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 20:10:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: from "Adam - DG/UX" at Oct 29, 11 11:15:35 am Message-ID: > > Perhaps I'm just being naive here, regarding all of these packaging quest= > ions. > Can't you just place a huge "fragile - =A0handle with care" sticker on Over here (at least), the phrase 'Fragile Scientfic Instrument' seems to be postage-company-speak for 'This parcel is to be used for playing (American) football' :-( > the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it? That way all the people > along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, instead > just throwing it in the back of the truck. > You _are_ kidding, right? -tony From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 15:44:47 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:44:47 +0200 Subject: A cautionary Freecycle tale In-Reply-To: <4EA8AEEF.9030400@gmail.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15B4A@meow.catcorner.org> <4EA8AEEF.9030400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 03:07, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > ... > At the other end of the scale, my local one these days is a bit of a > disaster - and I had trouble getting on that one at all because I had I . > co.uk address at the time I signed up, so hit the "you don't live here" > problem. > > We solved this problem on my group by letting people join and leave freely, but the messages are moderated. I could grab a computer (HP with dual core cpu) which did a good job running BOINC (see below) for a while. -- Stephane http://en.FreeDonne.org From dgunix at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 15:47:06 2011 From: dgunix at gmail.com (Adam - DG/UX) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:47:06 +0200 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it? That way all the people >> along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, instead >> just throwing it in the back of the truck. >> > > You _are_ kidding, right? Not at all. Is it that far fetched that there would be service levels? When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better support, from more experienced techs? I'm not talking about their response time, I'm talking about the quality of the service. And, back to shipping, FedEx has a few solutions including "Extra-care handling": and also check out White Gloves: http://www.fedex.com/us/services/customcritical/whiteglove/ Again, it's not all black and white, obviously the regular fee isn't about breaking your stuff but for the "Extra-care" fee they'll handle it properly.. There are levels of service in just about anything. Adam From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 29 18:44:55 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 19:44:55 -0400 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: <1319882914.61781.YahooMailClassic@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> Nope, they do it themselves.? The ground service was >> created when they acquired RPS. > > I believe this is true of their commercial ground delivery service, > but was told at one time that the FedEx Home Delivery drivers are > actually independent contractors. That's right. Residential deliveries (the home delivery branch of the Ground operating company) is mostly done by contractors. However, it's more like a franchise than it is a paper delivery route. The upshot is that the home delivery couriers represent the company, but you won't see them out on Christmas day to deliver packages that were found not to have been delivered the day before. Yes, the express part of the company actually did that one year. The station managers discovered that some packages hadn't been delivered on Christmas eve, so they (the station managers) went out on Christmas day to deliver them. I was working for FedEx at the time, and I have to admit feeling a little pride in the company when I answered the door that morning to see a package being delivered. BLS From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 29 18:50:45 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 19:50:45 -0400 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: <4EABC975.1917.6AA5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <76e21cade5ee0c941cfd78dcc0c6fcc7@bellsouth.net> > Fedex does take on temporary help (as does UPS) during the heavy > Christmas/Festivus holiday season. It's wise to avoid shipping > during December if possible. We've had things "disappear" from Fedex > distribution centers. The Christmas season is referred to as peak season within FedEx. It, Valentine's day and Mother's day are the biggest seasonal times for the company. It's become traditional at Christmas for some employees in the corporate offices to work nights at the Memphis hub to help out. Bringing a little computing back into the topic, it was company policy that no production software systems could be modified or updated during peak season without special VP level approval. Of course, if you were working on experimental projects, you had a little more leeway. BLS From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 29 19:13:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 17:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111029170713.W83038@shell.lmi.net> Fedex: 1) 20? years ago, they were inordinately proud of how few packages were late. Unfortunately, to achieve that goal, they had an unacceptable algorithm. Instead of a FIFO buffer, . . . if a package were late, it went to the BACK of the queue! Therefore, they had one package 2 days late, instead of 2 packages 1 day late. At that time, UPS had a FIFO buffer, and therefore had more late packages, but each late one was substantially less late than Fedex's late one. 2) A few years ago, I was expecting a package. Somehow, I missed the first two deliveries. Not sure HOW, since I was anxiously awaiting it. So, I took a entire day off of work for the third attempt, and spent the day sitting on my front porch. At 2:00, the online tracking changed from "out for delivery" to "failed delivery attempt"! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 19:55:24 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:55:24 -0200 Subject: (but still old tech) CEDs & players available References: <1319906367.37264.YahooMailRC@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2D4C39366EC34B1D86F85AE4BD00AEF8@portajara> I'm crying out loud, being so far away for the offer :( :( :( I always wanted to have a CED player and some disks :( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:39 PM Subject: OT: (but still old tech) CEDs & players available > This isn't old computers but still old tech and as I have talked to people > on > this list about these before I thought I would check here first before > dumping > them. > > I have a collection of about 300 CED (old video format similar to an old > record) > and a couple of players that I want to move out. If anyone here is > interested > contact me off list. I prefer local pickup as these are VERY HEAVY but if > you > really want to pay to have them shipped then I might consider it for a few > dollars more. I don't have a current list of the movies and am not > interested > in parting it out, just want to move them on out. > > Thanks. > > ----- > > David Williams > http://www.trailingedge.com From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 29 20:34:44 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 21:34:44 -0400 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8ad9c050d0b062c1aaa12fa1f7127d5e@bellsouth.net> > Is it that far fetched that there would be service levels? > When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better > support, from more experienced techs? Given the volumes and time frames involved, there's really no way that some packages can be handled differently from others if they're going through the same facility. The only exception to that are shipments that are too large or heavy to travel on the conveyor belts. Having said that, there are different services available that transport the packages through an entirely different path to get to the destination. FedEx has some pretty extreme examples. A few years ago a couple of pandas were imported from China and FedEx flew them. No only did they have a plane dedicated to them, but it was specially painted for the event. I never witnessed this myself, but some of the guys I worked with told me about a time they were in one of the facilities and heard an animal growling in one of the crates. FedEx also has the Custom Critical operating company that is the result of a purchase of Roberts Express. This is the part of the company you go to if you want something taken directly from your door to the destination and need it handled with particular care. BLS From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 29 20:51:26 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 18:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <8ad9c050d0b062c1aaa12fa1f7127d5e@bellsouth.net> References: <8ad9c050d0b062c1aaa12fa1f7127d5e@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2011, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: >> Is it that far fetched that there would be service levels? >> When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better >> support, from more experienced techs? > > Given the volumes and time frames involved, there's really no > way that some packages can be handled differently from others > if they're going through the same facility. The only exception to > that are shipments that are too large or heavy to travel on the > conveyor belts. Having said that, there are different services > available that transport the packages through an entirely different > path to get to the destination. FedEx has some pretty extreme > examples. A few years ago a couple of pandas were imported > from China and FedEx flew them. No only did they have a plane > dedicated to them, but it was specially painted for the event. > I never witnessed this myself, but some of the guys I worked > with told me about a time they were in one of the facilities and > heard an animal growling in one of the crates. FedEx also has > the Custom Critical operating company that is the result of a > purchase of Roberts Express. This is the part of the company > you go to if you want something taken directly from your door > to the destination and need it handled with particular care. Regarding shipping animals -- A few months ago I heard a rooster crowing from the back of the local post office. The clerks confirmed to me that, yes, someone is shipping a live rooster. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 21:21:20 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:21:20 -0400 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: <8ad9c050d0b062c1aaa12fa1f7127d5e@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: > Regarding shipping animals -- A few months ago I heard a rooster crowing > from the back of the local post office. ?The clerks confirmed to me that, > yes, someone is shipping a live rooster. Every so often someone ships a box of chicks out of the Carmel, NY post office. It is not totally uncommon in more rural areas. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 29 21:33:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 19:33:42 -0700 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: <8ad9c050d0b062c1aaa12fa1f7127d5e@bellsouth.net>, Message-ID: <4EAC5516.7890.2281A22@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2011 at 18:51, David Griffith wrote: > Regarding shipping animals -- A few months ago I heard a rooster > crowing from the back of the local post office. The clerks confirmed > to me that, yes, someone is shipping a live rooster. Yup. The USPS will accept bees, chicks, scorpions, live adult poultry, alligators, worms, fish, leeches, snails, etc.: http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_007.htm There are some roadless areas of the country for whom the USPS mail boat is pretty much the only outside contact. Mail boats are run by contract with the USPS: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Remote-mail-run-lives-up-to- post-office-credo-1259822.php I believe that there's also a boat that plies the Detroit River and services other vessels and even has its own ZIP code. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 29 21:48:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:48:30 -0400 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EAC5516.7890.2281A22@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8ad9c050d0b062c1aaa12fa1f7127d5e@bellsouth.net> <4EAC5516.7890.2281A22@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 29, 2011, at 10:33 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I believe that there's also a boat that plies the Detroit River and > services other vessels and even has its own ZIP code. Sounds like the perfect description for my ex. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 29 22:21:27 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 20:21:27 -0700 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EACC2B7.1070603@brouhaha.com> Adam - DG/UX wrote: > Is it that far fetched that there would be service levels? > When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better > support, from more experienced techs? > I'm not talking about their response time, I'm talking about the > quality of the service. You said "some extra $$". Apparently you meant "some extra $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$". > And, back to shipping, FedEx has a few solutions including "Extra-care > handling": > > and also check out White Gloves: > http://www.fedex.com/us/services/customcritical/whiteglove/ Did you notice that they don't have pricing for these services available online? Why do you suppose that is? > Again, it's not all black and white, obviously the regular fee isn't > about breaking your stuff but for the "Extra-care" fee they'll handle > it properly.. And if it gets broken, and they determine that it wasn't packed properly, you're still SOL. In other words, if you don't bolt down the typing unit of a Model 33 Teletype, or if you put a big heavy thing in a box with only foam peanuts for "protection", they aren't going to accept liability for breaking it. This isn't a substitute for packing it correctly. > There are levels of service in just about anything. Certainly. For shipping, the level of service for "I can't be bothered to package it correctly" is "pay a shipping agent that will package it correctly for me". However, for things where it isn't obvious how to package it correctly, like a Model 33 Teletype, or an RP06 disk drive, even that isn't going to be sufficient. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 29 23:21:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:21:10 -0400 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> Message-ID: <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> On 10/28/2011 04:00 PM, John Robertson wrote: > Has anyone tried to read the data from the Mostek 3851 PSU (ROM, I/O) > used with the 3850? I am looking to replace these tiny computers with a > modern FPGA or similar... Holy cow, I think you've just found something that a Data I/O UniSite won't handle. That's, umm, really unusual. (1702s notwithstanding!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 29 23:30:27 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [I]t's not because it's "stupid" (which it isn't), it's because > developers don't WANT to work on slow machines. > I sure don't. Do you? Other things being equal, I don't. Other things are never equal. There are four reasons that come to mind immediately why I'd rather work on my (comparatively) slow SS20 rather than some ridiculously overmuscled "modern" machine. Specifically, (1) so I can use a good keyboard (I've managed to hack a peecee X server to take a Sun keyboard on a serial port; it mostly works but has some annoying issues); (2) I have an aesthetic dislike for the x86 architecture, and in particular really do not appreciate wasing a substantial fraction of the silicon (and power) on an emulation layer that just keeps me away from the full power of the hardware; (3) working on slow machines keeps me honest, preventing me from sweeping my coding sins under the rug with hardware oomph; (4) the SS20 is substantially more reliable hardware. Obviously, these won't all apply to everyone. Some people, _none_ of them will apply to. But those are (some of) my reasons. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 29 23:38:13 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC LN03 Laser Printer Revival - advice sought please In-Reply-To: <4EAA84A9.6080707@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4EAA84A9.6080707@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <201110300438.AAA16056@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I've recently acquired a DEC LN03 laser printer [...] I can't help much with your questions; it's been a fairly long time since I had anything to do with LN03s, and even then I didn't really know that much about them. But I just recently was digging through stuff and found what appear to be two LN03 toner cartridges. I'd much rather give them to someone who can use them than just toss the silly things, but they're sure not of much use to me; if I still have the LN03 I once had I have no idea where it has gotten to - and would have no desire to keep it if I did find it; I've got an HP IIISi that's a better fit to my printer needs, both present and anticipated. Anyone want them? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 29 23:50:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:50:41 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EACD7A1.8030708@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 12:30 AM, Mouse wrote: > Other things are never equal. There are four reasons that come to > mind immediately why I'd rather work on my (comparatively) slow SS20 > rather than some ridiculously overmuscled "modern" machine. > Specifically, (1) so I can use a good keyboard (I've managed to hack a > peecee X server to take a Sun keyboard on a serial port; it mostly > works but has some annoying issues); (2) I have an aesthetic dislike > for the x86 architecture, and in particular really do not appreciate > wasing a substantial fraction of the silicon (and power) on an > emulation layer that just keeps me away from the full power of the > hardware; (3) working on slow machines keeps me honest, preventing me > from sweeping my coding sins under the rug with hardware oomph; (4) the > SS20 is substantially more reliable hardware. > > Obviously, these won't all apply to everyone. Some people, _none_ of > them will apply to. But those are (some of) my reasons. I wish more developers were like you. Our day-to-day computing experience would be so much nicer if they were. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 29 23:54:40 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Of course, Scheme *is* Lisp rather than just part of the family. I don't really think that's fair. Scheme is a bit closer to the lambda calculus and many - most? - Lisps in some respects, perhaps, but identifying Lisp with the lambda calculus is ignoring the difference between theory and implementation. I consider Scheme one member of the Lisp family, but no more than that. It makes some interesting and unusual choices; like most cases where there are many different versions of something, Scheme is better at some things and worse at others (as compared to either any other particular member of the family or to a fictional generic "average" implementation).... > One of the instructors [in a video], who was one of the creators of > Scheme and so should know better than me, mentions in passing near > the beginning that the particular Lisp used in the course is known as > Scheme but only uses Lisp to refer to it from then on. That hardly means much. An introductory course, especially one which focuses on the theoretical aspects, or the common aspects, is likely to do exactly that without any implication that it's fair to identify the whole language family with any particular implementation. If I were to teach a course on C, for example, I might well mention that the compiler I'm using is whichever one it is, but then proceed to teach C, rather than any particular implementation of C. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 29 23:55:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:55:54 -0400 Subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice In-Reply-To: References: <201110262021.p9QKLebu015798@floodgap.com> <871D260AA0ED4DDB909AEDC178869490@portajara> Message-ID: <4EACD8DA.2030005@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2011 11:35 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote: >> I've got the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer collection around without complaint and an F-15 too! :) > > Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things: minicomputers, test equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes, metalworking and cabinet shops and an absurd number of impractical automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection of lab equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :) > > (There's a reason we have 237 acres -- we need the space :P) Oh, VERY cool! That's one of the reasons I was so hot to get our new place, to have a nice big lab. I have an old-but-grand SEM, an ETEC AutoScan, that I'm dying to get running again. I ran it for a long time when I lived in MD, but never had the space in FL. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 00:00:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:00:41 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net>, <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EAC7789.833.2AEA995@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2011 at 0:21, Dave McGuire wrote: > Holy cow, I think you've just found something that a Data I/O > UniSite won't handle. That's, umm, really unusual. (1702s > notwithstanding!) At least it's NMOS and TTL-level compatible. I think you could take a small microcontroller and an evening and get what the thing has to offer. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 00:23:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:23:23 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net>, <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EAC7CDB.10084.2C3738B@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2011 at 0:21, Dave McGuire wrote: > Holy cow, I think you've just found something that a Data I/O > UniSite won't handle. That's, umm, really unusual. (1702s > notwithstanding!) How about the IMP-16 CROMs? Again, I think it takes a separate rig to read those. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 30 00:24:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 01:24:27 -0400 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EAC7789.833.2AEA995@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net>, <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> <4EAC7789.833.2AEA995@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EACDF8B.9020909@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 01:00 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Holy cow, I think you've just found something that a Data I/O >> UniSite won't handle. That's, umm, really unusual. (1702s >> notwithstanding!) > > At least it's NMOS and TTL-level compatible. I think you could take > a small microcontroller and an evening and get what the thing has to > offer. True. And that'd be more fun. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 30 00:35:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 01:35:47 -0400 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EAC7CDB.10084.2C3738B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net>, <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> <4EAC7CDB.10084.2C3738B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EACE233.3090809@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 01:23 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Oct 2011 at 0:21, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Holy cow, I think you've just found something that a Data I/O >> UniSite won't handle. That's, umm, really unusual. (1702s >> notwithstanding!) > > How about the IMP-16 CROMs? Again, I think it takes a separate rig > to read those. Oh yes, probably. Do you have a part number for those? I've got a supported device list here...more than twenty thousand entries! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 30 00:37:19 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 01:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EACD7A1.8030708@neurotica.com> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EACD7A1.8030708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110300537.BAA17174@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Other things are never equal. There are four reasons that come to >> mind immediately [...] >> Obviously, these won't all apply to everyone. Some people, _none_ >> of them will apply to. But those are (some of) my reasons. > I wish more developers were like you. Our day-to-day computing > experience would be so much nicer if they were. Thank you. That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me (on a mailing list, at least) in...quite a while. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgunix at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 00:47:01 2011 From: dgunix at gmail.com (Adam - DG/UX) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 07:47:01 +0200 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EACC2B7.1070603@brouhaha.com> References: <4EACC2B7.1070603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Certainly. ?For shipping, the level of service for "I can't be bothered to > package it correctly" is "pay a shipping agent that will package it > correctly for me". Obviously I was misunderstood somehow, or taken too literally. when I said "Can't you just place a huge "fragile - handle with care" sticker on the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it?" I meant on top of proper packing, as these posts implied so vividly (subject is still "Proper Packing"). Of course I didn't mean "wrap your TeleType in an old newspaper, stick a 'fragile' sticker and off you go" :) Adam From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 30 01:51:05 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 23:51:05 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EACF3D9.2060200@brouhaha.com> John Robertson wrote: > Has anyone tried to read the data from the Mostek 3851 PSU (ROM, I/O) > used with the 3850? I am looking to replace these tiny computers with a > modern FPGA or similar... Dave McGuire wrote: > Holy cow, I think you've just found something that a Data I/O UniSite won't handle. > That's, umm, really unusual. (1702s notwithstanding!) Not particularly unusual. The MK3851 (and F3851) are not field-programmable devices. There are a zillion non-field-programmable devices that the Unisite can't read, as it was intended for field-programmable devices. I've read 3851 chips in the late 1980s, using an R6511Q 8-bit microcontroller programmed to generate the appropriate bus signals. I don't seem to have saved the code I wrote for it. The more tricky problem was reading the code from an MK3870 single-chip micro. When I did that, I didn't have a fast enough microcontroller, so I used a board full of hardwired logic. Now there are plenty of microcontrollers fast enough, and I have some more MK3870 series chips that need to be read, so I need to design a new reader. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 30 01:56:06 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 23:56:06 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EAC7CDB.10084.2C3738B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net>, <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> <4EAC7CDB.10084.2C3738B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EACF506.4050200@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about the IMP-16 CROMs? Again, I think it takes a separate rig > to read those. You can't easily get all of the microprogram out of those electrically, because part of the microword is interpreted internally by the microsequencer. It's probably easiest to read them by decap and microscope. I've got spares of the basic and extended instruction set CROMs, so I might do this. I only have one of the "POWR I/O" CROM, so I don't want to sacrifice it. I haven't ever found the CROMs for the IMP-4 and IMP-8, unfortunately. Similarly, the decode PLAs of the CP1611 control chips for the PDP-11 and AM100 (WD16) and the CP2151 control chip of the WD90/900/9000 Pascal Microengine need to be extracted. Reading the MICROMs (CP1631, CP2171) is relatively easy. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 30 02:13:13 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:13:13 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EACE233.3090809@neurotica.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net>, <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com> <4EAC7CDB.10084.2C3738B@cclist.sydex.com> <4EACE233.3090809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EACF909.7080607@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about the IMP-16 CROMs? Again, I think it takes a separate rig > to read those. Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh yes, probably. Do you have a part number for those? I've got a > supported device list here...more than twenty thousand entries! The "generic" part number for an IMP CROM is MM4751 or MM5751, with the 4 vs. 5 designating military vs. commercial, respectively, and with a D, J, or N suffix designating glass/metal DIP, ceramic DIP, or plastic DIP, respectively. They rarely had the MMx571 part number stamped on the package, though. I think I've seen that exactly once. The actual part numbers (sans the D/J/N package suffix) are: Military Commercial Description ----------- ----------- ------------------------------------- IMP-8A/420 IMP-8A/520 IMP-8 CROM IMP-16A/421 IMP-16A/521 IMP-16 basic instruction set CROM IMP-16A/422 IMP-16A/522 IMP-16 extended instruction set CROM IMP-16A/423 IMP-16A/523 IMP-16 POWER I/O CROM IMP-16A/424 IMP-16A/524 IMP-16 Arithmetic CROM I don't have any definitive reference for the part number of the IMP-4 CROM. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 30 03:43:25 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 01:43:25 -0700 Subject: Floppy Disk Drive manuals. Message-ID: I have some drives I?m trying to find the manuals for, I have 2 Chinon, a FZ-502 and a FZ-506 and a toshiba 360K drive that I?d like to find manuals for. Chinon has long since stopped making drives and I was unable to find any information on their site for disk drives and no luck on the toshiba site. These were tested good about 10 years ago, but I no longer remember what they were tested in and do not know the jumper settings I need on them for sure (and some of the jumpers are not labelled :( From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 09:27:44 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:27:44 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 12:30 AM, Mouse wrote: >> [I]t's not because it's "stupid" (which it isn't), it's because >> developers don't WANT to work on slow machines. Wouldn't make much difference to me. Because, at least when I do it, my activities are: 1) A *lot* of thinking 2) A little bit of typing and 3) Stuff-all else that taxes a machine (the most demanding thing would be a web browser and occasional unit test runs). Are there common things that a programmer waits for? Compiles have hardly been a burden in the past decade... The machine should nearly always be waiting for the programmer while they think about what they are doing. ("More thought, less code" is a whole other rant.) I'd be equally productive on a 10 year old box; but I'd have the benefit of knowing if I were doing something silly, performance wise. A poorly phrased database query in a web app will be a problem on the fastest server, as client load increases. And judging by the bloatware around, examples surely abound in client side development. How can fast testing machines not hide performance problems? Performance/resource bugs are bugs too. The exception seems to be the arms race in JavaScript engine performance. If we could set up this kind of competition in many more areas, we might see software that doesn't demand a 6 month old PC (not forgetting all those long-standing negative feedback loops that ask you to throw out perfectly good hardware, buy new kit you don't need, along with one more trip through the Windows tollbooth). >> I sure don't. Do you? > > Other things being equal, I don't. > > Other things are never equal. There are four reasons that come to > mind immediately why I'd rather work on my (comparatively) slow SS20 > rather than some ridiculously overmuscled "modern" machine. > Specifically, (1) so I can use a good keyboard (I've managed to hack a > peecee X server to take a Sun keyboard on a serial port; it mostly > works but has some annoying issues); (2) I have an aesthetic dislike > for the x86 architecture, and in particular really do not appreciate > wasing a substantial fraction of the silicon (and power) on an > emulation layer that just keeps me away from the full power of the > hardware; (3) working on slow machines keeps me honest, preventing me > from sweeping my coding sins under the rug with hardware oomph; (4) the > SS20 is substantially more reliable hardware. Exactly. --Toby > > Obviously, these won't all apply to everyone. Some people, _none_ of > them will apply to. But those are (some of) my reasons. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 09:31:04 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:31:04 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 12:54 AM, Mouse wrote: >> Of course, Scheme *is* Lisp rather than just part of the family. > > I don't really think that's fair. Scheme is a bit closer to the lambda > calculus and many - most? - Lisps in some respects, perhaps, but > identifying Lisp with the lambda calculus is ignoring the difference > between theory and implementation. > > I consider Scheme one member of the Lisp family, but no more than that. > ... > >> One of the instructors [in a video], who was one of the creators of >> Scheme and so should know better than me, mentions in passing near >> the beginning that the particular Lisp used in the course is known as >> Scheme but only uses Lisp to refer to it from then on. > > That hardly means much. An introductory course, especially one which > focuses on the theoretical aspects, or the common aspects, is likely to > do exactly that without any implication that it's fair to identify the > whole language family with any particular implementation. If I were to > teach a course on C, for example, I might well mention that the > compiler I'm using is whichever one it is, but then proceed to teach C, > rather than any particular implementation of C. C is standardised, so it's straightforward to teach standard C. But you can't teach "standard Lisp" without picking a standard: CL or Scheme (and then which Scheme standard?) What's amusing is that the didactic books (HTDP and so on) frequently teach *non-standard* Scheme. (Go figure... :| ) --Toby > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 30 10:53:40 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 08:53:40 -0700 Subject: Seeking advice on shipping an ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: <02f601cc957c$48631c80$d9295580$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <9FFF1332E11C9E4696D5CDDAF826D66613B18BCD24@EXCCR01STORE.SL.local>, <02f601cc957c$48631c80$d9295580$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Seeking advice on shipping an ASR33 Teletype > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:17:09 -0400 > > Nick Jarmany wrote: > > > > All recommendations gratefully received! > > > > The typing unit _MUST_BE_ screwed to the base via > the shipping screws. Otherwise, it will bounce > around and break the plastic cover and possibly > itself as well. You will really need someone on > site that knows a little about the unit. > Hi I also recommend removing the motor as well. It unbalances the unit and makes it shift in any loose packing. Dwight From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 10:59:49 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:59:49 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 29 October 2011 03:15, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 3:18 PM > > On 26 October 2011 13:40, Toby Thain wrote: > >>> Last night I came across (via Quora*) a piece by Paul Graham that tries to >>> put McCarthy's early Lisp work into perspective. > >>> http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html >>> (The article itself is linked here as a PostScript file.) > >>> I haven't read it all yet. > >> Nice article - thanks for that! > > I'll second that. ?Very nice precis. > >> The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I >> suspect I am too old & even in my youth I never got much past BASIC. >> The only Lisp I've been able to follow code in is Dylan, and Dylan >> seems to be rather moribund... :?( > > JMC actually used what he called Lisp 2 in his classes, an algebraic > notation not unlike Dylan, very Algol-like in flavor. ?Not surprising, > when you think of the relative ages of Lisp and Algol. I've done a little Googling and from the few scant mentions I can find, I can't, TBH, see much different myself, as an outsider looking in. I understand the namespace distinction (I think) but the syntax looks nigh-identical from the few snippets I found. > There are some very good books on Lisp. ?There is one introductory book > on the language which is a lot of fun, _Land of Lisp_ by Barski, in which > you learn the language by writing programs like Grand Theft Wumpus (in a > chapter entitled "This Ain't Your Daddy's Wumpus"). ?It's enough to get > anyone started in Common Lisp. ?(I prefer CL's ball-of-mud to Scheme's > diamond, to steal the Lisp-is-a-ball-of-mud-APL-is-a-diamond trope from > Joel Moses.) > > I still prefer the first edition of Winston and Horn's _LISP_, which > covers several dialects at once, especially MACLISP and InterLISP, but > it's dated, so go with the 2nd or 3rd instead. ?Wade Hennessey's _Common > Lisp_ is pretty good, too. ?These are all from the early days of CL, > before it got as big as Ubuntu or RedHat. Noted. Ta! > The way I *really* learned Lisp was by looking at toy implementations, > especially one written in Pascal. ?That was back in the early or mid 1980s, > way before the Web, so I don't remember where it was published. ?I read the > paper in the Math library @ Stanford (which no longer has a lot of the old > working papers collection on paper, just on fiche where it's a lot harder > to browse). ?If you like, I can send you the source to my variant, or make > it publicly readable on the Toad-1 at the museum. Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to implement a very crude Lisp in it. :?D > If you get access JMC's 1960 paper in ACM, read it. ?The APPLY function > which Paul Graham skips in his precis is a wonder in itself, and is the > reason that LISP 1.5 and InterLISP are "evalquote" while PDP-1 LISP, > MACLISP, CL & Scheme are "eval": ?The evaluation loop in the former goes > > ? ? ? ?(print (apply (read) (read))) > > vs. ? ? (print (eval (read))) > > Enough for this evening. Many thanks! Lots of food for further reading there. May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: * Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. * Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of you." * Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 30 11:09:21 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 16:09:21 -0000 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au]: > Are there common things that a programmer waits for? Compiling a few directories takes seconds, but linking takes a little longer. Perhaps 30s on my 24GB system at work but more like 2-3m in its previous 8GB incarnation. There must be plenty of projects where a top-level build takes quite a while. In our case giving developers slow machines wouldn't help the final product since it runs on specific hardware. That must be true of a fair chunk of embedded development today (network boxes, phones, consoles ...). I agree that *testing* an end-user application on the least capable acceptable hardware is a good idea. Even there though, I don't see how forcing the developer to use that hardware for development achieves anything other than slowing them down. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Oct 30 11:32:30 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 16:32:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > Wouldn't make much difference to me. Because, at least when I do it, my > activities are: > > 1) A *lot* of thinking > 2) A little bit of typing > and > 3) Stuff-all else that taxes a machine (the most demanding thing would be a > web browser and occasional unit test runs). > > Are there common things that a programmer waits for? Grepping the source tree. If I substantially change the behavior of function X, I need to be sure it won't break any of the (often hundreds of) call sites. Enough RAM to fit the entire source tree in the cache is very helpful for this, and that can mean several GB... Also, in the past several places I've worked the developer machine has a mini version of the entire production enviromnent on it, so that one can actually run meaningful tests. For me that currently means an apache instance with about a dozen virtual hosts, memcached, half a dozen mysqld instances, several processes doing background jobs, and 4 or 5 postfix instances. Alexey From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Oct 30 12:13:57 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 12:13:57 -0500 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: <8ad9c050d0b062c1aaa12fa1f7127d5e@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <201110301716.p9UHGjnX055427@billy.ezwind.net> At 08:51 PM 10/29/2011, David Griffith wrote: >Regarding shipping animals -- A few months ago I heard a rooster crowing from the back of the local post office. The clerks confirmed to me that, yes, someone is shipping a live rooster. I've had dozens upon dozens of baby chicks shipped USPS. It's been the way they're shipped for a century. - John From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 12:17:40 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:17:40 -0400 Subject: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> Liam Proven wrote: >>> The more I read about Lisp, the more I want to understand... but I >>> suspect I am too old& even in my youth I never got much past BASIC. >>> The only Lisp I've been able to follow code in is Dylan, and Dylan >>> seems to be rather moribund... :?( >> >> JMC actually used what he called Lisp 2 in his classes, an algebraic >> notation not unlike Dylan, very Algol-like in flavor. Not surprising, >> when you think of the relative ages of Lisp and Algol. > > I've done a little Googling and from the few scant mentions I can > find, I can't, TBH, see much different myself, as an outsider looking > in. I understand the namespace distinction (I think) but the syntax > looks nigh-identical from the few snippets I found. Many functional programming texts depart from pure S-expressions. I wonder if McCarthy's teaching notation was like that used by Peter Henderson in "Functional Programming - Application and Implementation"[1]. This is another good text on list/recursive topics, but because it introduces new (simple) notation, may be needlessly confusing if you just want to learn Scheme. > ... >> The way I *really* learned Lisp was by looking at toy implementations, >> especially one written in Pascal. That was back in the early or mid 1980s, >> way before the Web, so I don't remember where it was published. I read the >> paper in the Math library @ Stanford (which no longer has a lot of the old >> working papers collection on paper, just on fiche where it's a lot harder >> to browse). If you like, I can send you the source to my variant, or make >> it publicly readable on the Toad-1 at the museum. > > > Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to > implement a very crude Lisp in it. :?D Wouldn't be my weapon of choice, but if you really love BBC BASIC, then go for it. Maybe you could actually compile to BASIC source (& even exploit the inline 6502 assembler) :) The two books I cited deal with implementation, which might help. There is also this nice implementation walkthrough (in Perl, but that's probably a fair bit less painful than BASIC :): http://billhails.net/Book/front.html > >> If you get access JMC's 1960 paper in ACM, read it. The APPLY function >> which Paul Graham skips in his precis is a wonder in itself, and is the >> reason that LISP 1.5 and InterLISP are "evalquote" while PDP-1 LISP, >> MACLISP, CL& Scheme are "eval": The evaluation loop in the former goes >> >> (print (apply (read) (read))) >> >> vs. (print (eval (read))) >> >> Enough for this evening. > > Many thanks! Lots of food for further reading there. I think the Graham paper is a good starting point, as it's probably less academic than McCarthy's. Also, the first pages of "Lisp in Small Pieces"[2] cover the same material in slightly more detail. > > May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: >... I find programming language and operating system car/{whatever} analogies add little to the conversation :) --Toby [1] http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=henderson&sts=t&tn=functional [2] http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=Lisp+in+Small+Pieces From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 12:19:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:19:56 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au>, Message-ID: <4EAD24CC.3204.482145@cclist.sydex.com> Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au]: > > Are there common things that a programmer waits for? Reminds me of a discussion that I had with Greg Mansfield, then of Cray sometime around 1983. We were discussing mods to Unix (I, BSD for the VAX; he, UniCOS) and I happened to mention that maintiang the makefiles and integrity of partial builds was a bit of a burden. He responded that he didn't bother with partial builds--he just recompiled the whole thing every time. After all, he was running on some very fast hardware. Indeed, even today, I'll find myself wondering what the heck I'm doing working out a makefile for a project whose compilation time is a minute at worst. And I agree--time spent away from the damned box is probably more important than time spent in front of it in the development process. For me, time spent sleeping seems to be my most productive time I find that designing software when fatigued results in many mistakes and foggy thought. My most valuable development tool remains a quadrule pad and a pencil. My most valuable lesson learned is *never* give in to management pressure to cut development time on a project. We all could take lessons from Michaelangelo there. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 12:24:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:24:23 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EACF506.4050200@brouhaha.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net>, <4EAC7CDB.10084.2C3738B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EACF506.4050200@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EAD25D7.14205.4C33EF@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2011 at 23:56, Eric Smith wrote: > You can't easily get all of the microprogram out of those > electrically, because part of the microword is interpreted internally > by the microsequencer. It's probably easiest to read them by decap > and microscope. I've got spares of the basic and extended instruction > set CROMs, so I might do this. I only have one of the "POWR I/O" > CROM, so I don't want to sacrifice it. I haven't ever found the CROMs > for the IMP-4 and IMP-8, unfortunately. Looking at the datasheet, I wonder if applying some smarts to the readout process might get pretty much all that's needed. I'm not in a position to say either way, as I don't have access to any CROMs--I just remember them from "back when". --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 12:26:09 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:26:09 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EAD88B1.2030705@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 12:09 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au]: > >> Are there common things that a programmer waits for? > > Compiling a few directories takes seconds, but linking takes > a little longer. Perhaps 30s on my 24GB system at work but > more like 2-3m in its previous 8GB incarnation. > > There must be plenty of projects where a top-level build takes > quite a while. Sometimes due to incompetent build systems (in my experience). I am sure you've seen this Makefile more than once: exe : $(CC) -o $@ $^ > > In our case giving developers slow machines wouldn't help the > final product since it runs on specific hardware. That must > be true of a fair chunk of embedded development today (network > boxes, phones, consoles ...). That's a thoroughly valid exception, indeed. > > I agree that *testing* an end-user application on the least capable > acceptable hardware is a good idea. Even there though, I don't see > how forcing the developer to use that hardware for development > achieves anything other than slowing them down. Then how would *you* solve the perennial problem of software whose pointless sloth and bloat won't allow it to run well on anything but the latest hardware? It is hard to dispute that a) older hardware gives the developer better visibility to performance issues (it changes their priorities, even subconsciously), and b) many developers do not need the "latest" hardware at all. Why would it slow their *thinking* down? They should be doing more thinking than typing, and a slow machine doesn't slow typing down either... The thing is: Make something run acceptably on the bulk of machines out there (which are not cutting edge) and you improve things for those who want to run the latest gadgets, commensurately. Looks like a win-win to me. --Toby > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 30 12:37:20 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110301737.NAA29609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...] developers don't WANT to work on slow machines. > Wouldn't make much difference to me. [...] > 3) Stuff-all else that taxes a machine (the most demanding thing > would be a web browser and occasional unit test runs). You don't specify what "a web browser" is. What most people mean by that is something that often won't run at all, never mind run well, on "slow machines" like my SS20. > Are there common things that a programmer waits for? Compiles have > hardly been a burden in the past decade... Then you're already using fast machines, and, what's more, you're working only on small pieces of software. A year or two ago, I was working (for $THEN_JOB) on something that - on a "modern" "fast" machine, mind you - took something like half an hour to build from scratch, and annoying long, multiple minutes, even to do a "nothing changed" build. And that's with everything already in cache. I moderately often work with a piece of software that, even on a relatively modern machine, takes significant time - long enough for a human to get frustrated - to build. I just now did a test build, in a ramdisk on a Core 2 Duo at 1.8GHz, and it took a minute fifty-four seconds. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 30 12:39:48 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110301739.NAA29657@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > C is standardised, so it's straightforward to teach standard C. But > you can't teach "standard Lisp" without picking a standard: CL or > Scheme (and then which Scheme standard?) You can't teach "standard C" without picking a standard, too. There are at least three (K&R v1, ANSI C, and C99) and probably more that I'm not aware of or which don't come to mind immediately. "The wonderful thing about standards is there are so many to choose from!" /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 12:57:42 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:57:42 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EAD9016.6010601@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 12:32 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Wouldn't make much difference to me. Because, at least when I do it, >> my activities are: >> >> 1) A *lot* of thinking >> 2) A little bit of typing >> and >> 3) Stuff-all else that taxes a machine (the most demanding thing would >> be a web browser and occasional unit test runs). >> >> Are there common things that a programmer waits for? > > Grepping the source tree. If I substantially change the behavior of > function X, I need to be sure it won't break any of the (often hundreds > of) call sites. Enough RAM to fit the entire source tree in the cache is > very helpful for this, and that can mean several GB... Yes, that problem is solved by RAM, and smarter indexing :) In fact, it's a *perfect* illustration of how a fast machine can conceal a very inefficient design! Grepping a source tree for an identifier is orders of magnitude more wasteful than simply using an inverted index. > Also, in the past several places I've worked the developer machine has a > mini version of the entire production enviromnent on it, so that one can > actually run meaningful tests. For me that currently means an apache > instance with about a dozen virtual hosts, memcached, half a dozen > mysqld instances, several processes doing background jobs, and 4 or 5 > postfix instances. Sure, some environments are simply too big for a 10 year old machine. I'd suggest that this is the minority. --T > > Alexey > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 13:05:18 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:05:18 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD24CC.3204.482145@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EAD24CC.3204.482145@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EAD91DE.5090806@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 1:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au]: >> >> Are there common things that a programmer waits for? > > Reminds me of a discussion that I had with Greg Mansfield, then of > Cray sometime around 1983. We were discussing mods to Unix (I, BSD > for the VAX; he, UniCOS) and I happened to mention that maintiang the > makefiles and integrity of partial builds was a bit of a burden. He > responded that he didn't bother with partial builds--he just > recompiled the whole thing every time. > > After all, he was running on some very fast hardware. Indeed, even > today, I'll find myself wondering what the heck I'm doing working out > a makefile for a project whose compilation time is a minute at worst. One increasingly important reason: parallel builds. A correct makefile gives you that for free. Even to correctly rebuild "the world" in parallel (and if you're doing that, you WANT it happening on multiple cores) will require a correct makefile. It's a worthwhile investment. Plus you never know when you (or some random end user, in the open source universe) will want to build on a verrrrry slow machine. They'll curse you if you only ever built on an 8 core Xeon and never gave a damn about incremental builds or efficiency. (Another justification of the original proposal to keep dev boxes slow: or you might never end up with sensible makefiles.) > > And I agree--time spent away from the damned box is probably more > important than time spent in front of it in the development process. Thanks for concurring; I was wondering if I was the only person on the list who felt thinking, design, and reasoning were important parts of programming. > For me, time spent sleeping seems to be my most productive time I > find that designing software when fatigued results in many mistakes > and foggy thought. Oh yes, can't count the times when I've burned out on an issue at 6pm and solved it by 10am with a fresh mind the next morning. > > My most valuable development tool remains a quadrule pad and a > pencil. Mine too! > > My most valuable lesson learned is *never* give in to management > pressure to cut development time on a project. We all could take > lessons from Michaelangelo there. The funny thing is, management never learns. They get burned by cutting a time budget, fail to join the dots, and do it over and over again. Lessons from Michaelangelo and the late great Fred Brooks, indeed. --Toby > > --Chuck > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 13:21:47 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:21:47 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <201110301737.NAA29609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301737.NAA29609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EAD95BB.2040100@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 1:37 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> [...] developers don't WANT to work on slow machines. >> Wouldn't make much difference to me. [...] > >> 3) Stuff-all else that taxes a machine (the most demanding thing >> would be a web browser and occasional unit test runs). > > You don't specify what "a web browser" is. What most people mean by > that is something that often won't run at all, never mind run well, on > "slow machines" like my SS20. That is true. But then, there's lynx :) > >> Are there common things that a programmer waits for? Compiles have >> hardly been a burden in the past decade... > > Then you're already using fast machines, and, what's more, you're > working only on small pieces of software. A year or two ago, I was > working (for $THEN_JOB) on something that - on a "modern" "fast" > machine, mind you - took something like half an hour to build from > scratch, and annoying long, multiple minutes, even to do a "nothing > changed" build. And that's with everything already in cache. A lot of development these days doesn't get compiled (e.g. PHP). And yes, for big projects, you need to scale up somewhat. But it's not as if compiling is what one does all day. In between compiles, you need to do what a programmer does. :) > > I moderately often work with a piece of software that, even on a > relatively modern machine, takes significant time - long enough for a > human to get frustrated - to build. I just now did a test build, in a > ramdisk on a Core 2 Duo at 1.8GHz, and it took a minute fifty-four > seconds. One source file? Or many? --Toby > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Oct 30 13:25:34 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:25:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD9016.6010601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> <4EAD9016.6010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > On 30/10/11 12:32 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> Are there common things that a programmer waits for? >> >> Grepping the source tree. If I substantially change the behavior of >> function X, I need to be sure it won't break any of the (often hundreds >> of) call sites. Enough RAM to fit the entire source tree in the cache is >> very helpful for this, and that can mean several GB... > > Yes, that problem is solved by RAM, and smarter indexing :) > > In fact, it's a *perfect* illustration of how a fast machine can conceal a > very inefficient design! Grepping a source tree for an identifier is orders > of magnitude more wasteful than simply using an inverted index. Do you have any examples of software that does this sort of indexing that's not built into a heavyweight IDE? I've never seen any. Alexey From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 13:29:10 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:29:10 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <201110301739.NAA29657@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301739.NAA29657@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EAD9776.3020100@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 1:39 PM, Mouse wrote: >> C is standardised, so it's straightforward to teach standard C. But >> you can't teach "standard Lisp" without picking a standard: CL or >> Scheme (and then which Scheme standard?) > > You can't teach "standard C" without picking a standard, too. There > are at least three (K&R v1, ANSI C, and C99) and probably more Yes, but similarly my point is that you can't teach BOTH CL and Scheme in one syntax, and trying to teach "generic" Lisp beyond the theoretical underpinnings covered in Graham's "Roots of Lisp" would be kind of weird and rather unhelpful, wouldn't it? Teaching "generic" C is a bit easier, because you could stop at "ANSI" and remain forwards compatible, only losing K&R, mostly unmourned :) --Toby > that I'm > not aware of or which don't come to mind immediately. "The wonderful > thing about standards is there are so many to choose from!" > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 30 13:51:38 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD95BB.2040100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301737.NAA29609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD95BB.2040100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110301851.OAA01124@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> You don't specify what "a web browser" is. What most people mean by >> that is something that often won't run at all, never mind run well, >> on "slow machines" like my SS20. > That is true. But then, there's lynx :) There is. lynx is what I use when I have occasion to care about something Web (which isn't really all that often; I avoid the Web in general). (That's why I qualified it with the "what most people mean by that" part. :) > A lot of development these days doesn't get compiled (e.g. PHP). Well, doesn't get compiled in the sense we're talking about here; I think PHP, and certainly many of the "doesn't get compiled" languages, do indeed get compiled, if only to pcode, when run. > And yes, for big projects, you need to scale up somewhat. But it's > not as if compiling is what one does all day. Sure feels like it sometimes - which I suppose is what I was saying. > In between compiles, you need to do what a programmer does. :) This is very true. >> I moderately often work with a piece of software that, even on a >> relatively modern machine, takes significant time - long enough for >> a human to get frustrated - to build. I just now did a test build, >> in a ramdisk on a Core 2 Duo at 1.8GHz, and it took a minute >> fifty-four seconds. > One source file? Or many? Many. git. (There are worse - X, and NetBSD itself, come to mind - but I don't mess with them often enough to feel they're fair examples for this discussion. Though come to think of it it's been a while since I did anything to git....) I think the largest single source file I work with may be my tar, which is 304672 bytes, 11301 lines (I just checked). I just test-compiled that on my SS20, and it took 28 seconds - without benefit of ramdisk. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 30 14:03:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:03:05 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD24CC.3204.482145@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EAD24CC.3204.482145@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EAD9F69.2080509@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 01:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Reminds me of a discussion that I had with Greg Mansfield, then of > Cray sometime around 1983. We were discussing mods to Unix (I, BSD > for the VAX; he, UniCOS) and I happened to mention that maintiang the > makefiles and integrity of partial builds was a bit of a burden. He > responded that he didn't bother with partial builds--he just > recompiled the whole thing every time. > > After all, he was running on some very fast hardware. Indeed, even > today, I'll find myself wondering what the heck I'm doing working out > a makefile for a project whose compilation time is a minute at worst. That sorta makes sense I suppose. I was brought up with a "waste not, want not" mentality, and that extends to my development process. I have a few "boilerplate" Makefiles that I keep around for starting new projects; it takes me about a minute to set one up and get it running. Maybe five minutes for a complicated one like for cross-building ARM7 stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 30 14:05:33 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EAD9776.3020100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301739.NAA29657@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD9776.3020100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110301905.PAA01361@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> You can't teach "standard C" without picking a standard, too. There >> are at least three (K&R v1, ANSI C, and C99) and probably more [...] > Yes, but similarly my point is that you can't teach BOTH CL and > Scheme in one syntax, You can come pretty close. A whole lot of the syntax is the same (parentheses-surrounded prefix function calls, for example), and much of the rest is trivial details of the "CL spells this foo, Scheme spells it bar" sort. It's only when you dig a lot deeper than most novices will that you start seeing major differences. > and trying to teach "generic" Lisp beyond the theoretical > underpinnings covered in Graham's "Roots of Lisp" would be kind of > weird and rather unhelpful, wouldn't it? I dunno. I learnt Lisp long before I learnt anything about the lambda calculus. Just as we teach kids to add and multiply before we teach them the underlying theory (this is why the New math was such a disaster - indeed, many people never learn the underlying theory because they have no reason to care about it), I see nothing wrong with teaching Lisp without teaching the underlying theory. It's true that you can't be really good at Lisp without at least a little of the underlying theory, but you don't need it in the form of theory; what you need are the abstractions, without necessarily understanding their theoretical underpinnings. It's perhaps better if you do, but that's true of any field; just as I'm a better Lisper for knowing a little about the lambda calculus, I'm a better C programmer for knowing a little about complex analysis and Taylor series and error analysis and combinatorics and many other things. Indeed, I would argue that some familiarity with the lambda calculus will make you a better programmer even if you never touch Lisp. Much the same is true of combinatorics and all those other fields. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 30 14:08:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:08:50 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD91DE.5090806@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EAD24CC.3204.482145@cclist.sydex.com> <4EAD91DE.5090806@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EADA0C2.2010305@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 02:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> For me, time spent sleeping seems to be my most productive time I >> find that designing software when fatigued results in many mistakes >> and foggy thought. > > Oh yes, can't count the times when I've burned out on an issue at 6pm > and solved it by 10am with a fresh mind the next morning. YES! That happened to me *just yesterday*. The annoying thing is that I often can't tell that I'm actually that tired. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 30 14:12:59 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> <4EAD9016.6010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110301912.PAA01507@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Grepping the source tree. >> In fact, it's a *perfect* illustration of how a fast machine can >> conceal a very inefficient design! Grepping a source tree for an >> identifier is orders of magnitude more wasteful than simply using an >> inverted index. Yes - but that's ignoring the cost of creating/maintaining the index in the first place. If you grep the tree less often than you make changes that would require updating the index, it may be cheaper to pay the cost at grep time rather than at index rebuild/update time. > Do you have any examples of software that does this sort of indexing > that's not built into a heavyweight IDE? I've never seen any. ctags(1). It's not a full index (it's definitions-only, for example), but I think it's close enough to count. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 30 14:14:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:14:14 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> <4EAD9016.6010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EADA206.3080600@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 02:25 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>>> Are there common things that a programmer waits for? >>> >>> Grepping the source tree. If I substantially change the behavior of >>> function X, I need to be sure it won't break any of the (often hundreds >>> of) call sites. Enough RAM to fit the entire source tree in the cache is >>> very helpful for this, and that can mean several GB... >> >> Yes, that problem is solved by RAM, and smarter indexing :) >> >> In fact, it's a *perfect* illustration of how a fast machine can >> conceal a very inefficient design! Grepping a source tree for an >> identifier is orders of magnitude more wasteful than simply using an >> inverted index. > > Do you have any examples of software that does this sort of indexing > that's not built into a heavyweight IDE? I've never seen any. Ctags comes to mind. It's pretty simplistic and has been around for decades, but it works well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 14:15:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 12:15:51 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD91DE.5090806@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EAD24CC.3204.482145@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EAD91DE.5090806@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EAD3FF7.5232.B241AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2011 at 14:05, Toby Thain wrote: > One increasingly important reason: parallel builds. A correct makefile > gives you that for free. We'd do it at the source level years ago, using a source library program such as UPDATE. It's often the case that so many structures and procedures are shared by routines in the OS, that a full recompile was about as effective as a partial build. An extreme case of compiles taking a long time was when I was doing STAR OS development and the only (convenient) resource was a pair of STAR-1B systems (the only extant ones), that ran at somewhere around 1/1000th the speed of the real thing. They were not intended as standard line products, but rather as development platforms that had the same core (256K words), and attached to standard STAR SBUs and MCU, but were otherwise bit-serial heavily microprogrammed emulators.. A compile of the OS kernel was an overnight job, taking a bit more than 8 hours. That's the kernel, not any of the system utilities. More often than not, the hardware would develop problems and you'd lose a day. You quickly learned that desk-checking everything thoroughly would save huge amounts of time. It was a very frustrating way to work. There were only two other options--beg some maintenance time from the CEs at Livermore, or grab a flight to Minneapolis/St. Paul to use the system at ADL in Arden Hills to recompile. This was quite possibly the worst development environment that I'd ever worked in. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 30 14:44:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:44:49 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EADA931.4090300@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 10:27 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> [I]t's not because it's "stupid" (which it isn't), it's because >>> developers don't WANT to work on slow machines. > > Wouldn't make much difference to me. Because, at least when I do it, my > activities are: > > 1) A *lot* of thinking > 2) A little bit of typing > and > 3) Stuff-all else that taxes a machine (the most demanding thing would > be a web browser and occasional unit test runs). > > Are there common things that a programmer waits for? Compiles have > hardly been a burden in the past decade... The machine should nearly > always be waiting for the programmer while they think about what they > are doing. ("More thought, less code" is a whole other rant.) > > I'd be equally productive on a 10 year old box; but I'd have the benefit > of knowing if I were doing something silly, performance wise. A poorly > phrased database query in a web app will be a problem on the fastest > server, as client load increases. And judging by the bloatware around, > examples surely abound in client side development. How can fast testing > machines not hide performance problems? Performance/resource bugs are > bugs too. I think a lot of the problem is much less "work" related than that. Most developers I've met want super-fast development machines at work so they can play games, watch videos, and do all sorts of other crap that has nothing to do with actual work. Yes, I've fired a few of these types of people. With the American work ethic of late, though, they seem to be in the vast majority. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 30 15:19:56 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 13:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Standards?? (Was: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > C is standardised, so it's straightforward to teach standard C. But you This must be a different meaning of standardized than I was previously familiar with. Or perhaps it meets with George Morrow's definition of standards, in that everyone can have a unique one of their own. K&R explicitly leaves many choices, such as number of bits in each variable type, up to the compiler author, and defends it as permitting creating whatever would be best for the hardware platform. "Standard Library", by the way, is NOT "standardized library". It is "standard" as opposed to "optional equipment". Just as each individual car model can have different "standard equipment", each compiler can have enormous latitude in "standard library". Although some functions such as printf() had better be included if the compiler author expects to survive, there are many functions whose definitions are subject to interpretation. For example, does puts() add a newline ('\n')? Many implementation choices, rather than be codified or standardized are left open, and are now often referred to as "undefined". Not "undefined" as in x/0 , but "undefined" as in what does n=2; A[n++] = n++; do? A "standard" is "a ten foot pole with a flag on top". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 13:26:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:26:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: from "Adam - DG/UX" at Oct 29, 11 10:47:06 pm Message-ID: > > >> the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it? That way all the people > >> along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, instead > >> just throwing it in the back of the truck. > >> > > > > You _are_ kidding, right? > > > Not at all. > Is it that far fetched that there would be service levels? Mybe not, but practical experience has taught me that no matter how much you pay, the package is likely to be dropped at some point. You still need to pack it properly, to withstand this. However careful they claim to be, things can go wrong. Personally, I'd rather spend more time in packing a rare device properly than have it wrecked. And to return to the ASR33, I'd not want to move one myself, say on the back seat of a car, without either tying down or reemoving the typing unit. > When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better > support, from more experienced techs? Well, I've never paied for support on anything, but however experienced the techs are, there will surely be soemthing they don't know. So however mcuh you pay, there wil lbe problems they can't solve quickly. Same with shipping old hardware. You may pay for a better service, but the parcel could still slip from soembody's hands. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 14:06:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:06:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EAC7CDB.10084.2C3738B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 29, 11 10:23:23 pm Message-ID: > > Holy cow, I think you've just found something that a Data I/O > > UniSite won't handle. That's, umm, really unusual. (1702s > > notwithstanding!) > > How about the IMP-16 CROMs? Again, I think it takes a separate rig > to read those. Or the HP512*8 or 256*16 masked ROMS that were used in the 9800 calculators and HP instruemtns of the early-mid 1970s (there's one in the 59309 digial clock for the HPIB state machine). Theyr'e mostly TTL compatible, but have enalbe inputs you have to take to +12V, and need a -2V bias supply. My experience is that programemrs will only 'officially' read the devices thay can program, which of course excludes masked ROMs. If a masekd ROM can be read as some programamble device (say a 2316 which cna be red a a 2716, etc), then the prgorammer will read them. But if there never was a user-prgoramamble version (as in the case of the above devices), then it's unlikely that a programmer will be set up to read them. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 16:18:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:18:59 -0700 Subject: Standards?? (Was: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au>, <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EAD5CD3.6387.122FBA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2011 at 13:19, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > > C is standardised, so it's straightforward to teach standard C. But > > you > > This must be a different meaning of standardized than I was previously > familiar with. Or perhaps it meets with George Morrow's definition of > standards, in that everyone can have a unique one of their own. It's too bad that the military doesn't exert the influence on programming language standardization that they once did. In particular, Grace Hopper comes to mind. By 1975, almost all RFPs we received for COBOL-related projects had the requirement of a compiler that could successfully run the Navy Audit test suite. COBOL prety much started as a stadardized language in 1959 and was one of the first to realize the plague that "vendor extensions" represented. I believe that the 1974 spec requires that the default compilation level be the standard with any vendor extensions disabled. Algol-60 was another such case, however I don't believe the spec included any I/O specifications, which probably was not a good idea. By comparison, attempts to standardize C came long after the initial implementations. K&R reads like a romance novel; the COBOL specs read like the IRS code--the level of detail was enough to give you a throbbing headache; K&R was the general description of a language with very little detail. --Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Oct 30 16:29:38 2011 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:29:38 -0700 Subject: Standards?? (Was: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EAD5CD3.6387.122FBA3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au>, <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> <4EAD5CD3.6387.122FBA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 30 Oct 2011, at 2:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > It's too bad that the military doesn't exert the influence on > programming language standardization that they once did. I gather you didn't have to suffer through using Ada much ;) -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun Oct 30 16:52:34 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In defense of Steve Jobs (The Xerox issue) Message-ID: <1320011554.95561.YahooMailNeo@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> So I got this article from someone and the part about Xerox PARC caught my eye.. Personally I think he is missing some pieces to his story, but I figured I would post here and get a discussion going. http://www.cultofmac.com/126863/in-defense-of-steve-jobs/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 17:03:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:03:51 -0700 Subject: Standards?? (Was: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: , <4EAD5CD3.6387.122FBA3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EAD6757.1999.14C104D@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2011 at 14:29, Christian Kennedy wrote: > I gather you didn't have to suffer through using Ada much ;) I've still got one of the early standards drafts squirreled away somewhere, but other things mercifully got my interest. at the time. Are there any open-source JOVIAL implementations? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 30 17:10:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:10:36 -0400 Subject: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 01:17 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to >> implement a very crude Lisp in it. :?D > > Wouldn't be my weapon of choice, but if you really love BBC BASIC, then > go for it. Maybe you could actually compile to BASIC source (& even > exploit the inline 6502 assembler) :) BBC BASIC has an inline assembler for 6502?? Wow, that's wild. What hardware would I need to cobble together to run that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Oct 30 17:11:00 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:11:00 +0000 Subject: LN03 Pocket Service Guide In-Reply-To: <2DA7A129907A664E8C5DA8462AD4D94C2BB766@deathstar.arielnet.com> References: <2DA7A129907A664E8C5DA8462AD4D94C2BB766@deathstar.arielnet.com> Message-ID: <4EADCB74.5080602@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi Guys, Does anyone have a copy of the LN03 Pocket Service Guide? There is a contents listing on Manx but no body. I'd be prepared to arrange a scan so that the guide can be made available online. Regards, Mark From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Oct 30 17:17:55 2011 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:17:55 -0700 Subject: Standards?? (Was: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EAD6757.1999.14C104D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EAD5CD3.6387.122FBA3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EAD6757.1999.14C104D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9F02B0B6-460B-410D-9487-B1897971CF61@mainecoon.com> On 30 Oct 2011, at 3:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Oct 2011 at 14:29, Christian Kennedy wrote: > >> I gather you didn't have to suffer through using Ada much ;) > > I've still got one of the early standards drafts squirreled away > somewhere, but other things mercifully got my interest. at the time. You seriously didn't miss anything, since just about every program of any consequence on the planet applied for and was granted wavers from using it. > > Are there any open-source JOVIAL implementations? I haven't seen any, although JOVIAL seems to still be alive and well at SEA -- who also seems to do website design (yes, it make my head hurt, too). -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 30 17:39:54 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:39:54 -0000 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD88B1.2030705@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC> Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au] wrote: > On 30/10/11 12:09 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > There must be plenty of projects where a top-level build > takes quite a > > while. > > Sometimes due to incompetent build systems (in my > experience). I am sure > you've seen this Makefile more than once: > > exe : > $(CC) -o $@ $^ Ours is just big. > That's a thoroughly valid exception, indeed. The embedded/dedicated hardware stuff isn't an exception - it's most of my career :-) > > > > I agree that *testing* an end-user application on the least capable > > acceptable hardware is a good idea. Even there though, I > don't see how > > forcing the developer to use that hardware for development achieves > > anything other than slowing them down. > > Then how would *you* solve the perennial problem of software whose > pointless sloth and bloat won't allow it to run well on > anything but the > latest hardware? My solution is in the bit you conveniently quoted above :-) Despite being the consensus here, it doesn't appear to work that well. If this were a problem for the majority of customers, then the market would solve the issue (i.e. someone else would release a competing product that didn't have this issue but otherwise worked at least "well enough"). So either the majority of customers do not see this problem or do not see it as a problem or the market is in some way broken. I'm not sure which of these is responsible, or even if it is a combination of these factors. I do know that if a business finds that application $FOO just won't run on whatever desktops they have, then almost certainly it seems to be cheaper to replace those desktops with a new ?500 dual-core desktop. (I say that even though the environment I work in develops using Linux-based systems and we're happy to "roll our own" whenever it is required - most places just don't work that way probably because most places are not development shops). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 30 17:44:02 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:44:02 -0000 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD9016.6010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au] wrote: > Yes, that problem is solved by RAM, and smarter indexing :) 24GB does help :-) > In fact, it's a *perfect* illustration of how a fast machine > can conceal > a very inefficient design! Grepping a source tree for an > identifier is > orders of magnitude more wasteful than simply using an inverted index. If grepping the tree were a major part of what I do then I'd do something about it. As it is, it isn't. It also doesn't affect the end user. If I were running on a slower, less capable machine (or over a slow network or some other constraint) then I'd have to adopt a different approach. But none of those constraints hold so it's simply not an issue so I've not wasted any time trying to develop anything "better". Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From jonas at otter.se Sat Oct 29 11:21:51 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 18:21:51 +0200 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EAC281F.1050600@otter.se> > Does the diellectric strength increase back to its original value on > cooling again? If so, then this is not really a problem if you happen to > heat a CRT part (pin, bit of the envelope) with a soldering iron while > working on the device. That would seem likely since the glass was once melted in order to make the CRT. Whether continuous arcing damages the glass permanently or not is another question. I would guess that the heat in itself does nothing irreversible, but arcing does. I found this in a text about types of glass and manufacturing procedures for CRTs. It did not mention whether the damage was reversible or not. Your observation about connecting a glass rod across the mains and heating it certainly supports their warnings about reduced dielectric strength. On the other hand, I would suppose that severe localised heating could cause the glass to crack due to local expansion creating excessive stresses, so I would still be very careful with the soldering iron. /Jonas From dlwfanservice at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 29 12:14:15 2011 From: dlwfanservice at sbcglobal.net (David Williams) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:14:15 -0500 Subject: OT: (but still old tech) CEDs & players available In-Reply-To: <1319906367.37264.YahooMailRC@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1319906367.37264.YahooMailRC@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Forgot to say they are located in Houston, TX. On Oct 29, 2011, at 11:39, nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: > This isn't old computers but still old tech and as I have talked to people on > this list about these before I thought I would check here first before dumping > them. > > I have a collection of about 300 CED (old video format similar to an old record) > and a couple of players that I want to move out. If anyone here is interested > contact me off list. I prefer local pickup as these are VERY HEAVY but if you > really want to pay to have them shipped then I might consider it for a few > dollars more. I don't have a current list of the movies and am not interested > in parting it out, just want to move them on out. > > Thanks. > > ----- > > David Williams > http://www.trailingedge.com From dlwfanservice at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 29 12:43:11 2011 From: dlwfanservice at sbcglobal.net (David Williams) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:43:11 -0500 Subject: OT: (but still old tech) CEDs & players available In-Reply-To: <1319906367.37264.YahooMailRC@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1319906367.37264.YahooMailRC@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001cc9662$3b293720$b17ba560$@net> Forgot to say that these are located in Houston, TX. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:39 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: OT: (but still old tech) CEDs & players available This isn't old computers but still old tech and as I have talked to people on this list about these before I thought I would check here first before dumping them. I have a collection of about 300 CED (old video format similar to an old record) and a couple of players that I want to move out. If anyone here is interested contact me off list. I prefer local pickup as these are VERY HEAVY but if you really want to pay to have them shipped then I might consider it for a few dollars more. I don't have a current list of the movies and am not interested in parting it out, just want to move them on out. Thanks. ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 18:25:48 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:25:48 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com>, <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> <4EAD9016.6010601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EADDCFC.6080800@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 2:25 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 30/10/11 12:32 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >>> >>>> Are there common things that a programmer waits for? >>> >>> Grepping the source tree. If I substantially change the behavior of >>> function X, I need to be sure it won't break any of the (often hundreds >>> of) call sites. Enough RAM to fit the entire source tree in the cache is >>> very helpful for this, and that can mean several GB... >> >> Yes, that problem is solved by RAM, and smarter indexing :) >> >> In fact, it's a *perfect* illustration of how a fast machine can >> conceal a very inefficient design! Grepping a source tree for an >> identifier is orders of magnitude more wasteful than simply using an >> inverted index. > > Do you have any examples of software that does this sort of indexing > that's not built into a heavyweight IDE? I've never seen any. It would be a straightforward vim or emacs extension (and there are plenty of libraries that implement this - such as Lucene/Solr). If IDEs are "heavyweight" or have no indexing short of grep (Eclipse seems to grep), then that is, as I say, a perfect illustration of heedless, unreasonable bloat. --Toby > > Alexey > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 18:28:11 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:28:11 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <201110301851.OAA01124@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301737.NAA29609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD95BB.2040100@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301851.OAA01124@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EADDD8B.6000703@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 2:51 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> You don't specify what "a web browser" is. What most people mean by >>> that is something that often won't run at all, never mind run well, >>> on "slow machines" like my SS20. >> That is true. But then, there's lynx :) > > There is. lynx is what I use when I have occasion to care about > something Web (which isn't really all that often; I avoid the Web in > general). (That's why I qualified it with the "what most people mean > by that" part. :) > >> A lot of development these days doesn't get compiled (e.g. PHP). > > Well, doesn't get compiled in the sense we're talking about here; I > think PHP, and certainly many of the "doesn't get compiled" languages, > do indeed get compiled, if only to pcode, when run. Have you ever waited for that to happen? > >> And yes, for big projects, you need to scale up somewhat. But it's >> not as if compiling is what one does all day. > > Sure feels like it sometimes - which I suppose is what I was saying. > >> In between compiles, you need to do what a programmer does. :) > > This is very true. > >>> I moderately often work with a piece of software that, even on a >>> relatively modern machine, takes significant time - long enough for >>> a human to get frustrated - to build. I just now did a test build, >>> in a ramdisk on a Core 2 Duo at 1.8GHz, and it took a minute >>> fifty-four seconds. >> One source file? Or many? > > Many. git. (There are worse - X, and NetBSD itself, come to mind - > but I don't mess with them often enough to feel they're fair examples > for this discussion. Though come to think of it it's been a while > since I did anything to git....) Yes, if you are a programmer working on Xorg or NetBSD kernel, you may want a reasonably modern machine. If you are not, then you compile them infrequently :) > > I think the largest single source file I work with may be my tar, which > is 304672 bytes, 11301 lines (I just checked). I just test-compiled > that on my SS20, and it took 28 seconds - without benefit of ramdisk. How often do you modify and recompile that file? If you changed it every day, would you refactor? Would there be any other benefits to breaking it into modules? --T > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 18:52:16 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:52:16 -0400 Subject: Standards?? (Was: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EADE330.30901@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 4:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Toby Thain wrote: >> C is standardised, so it's straightforward to teach standard C. But you > > This must be a different meaning of standardized than I was previously > familiar with. Or perhaps it meets with George Morrow's definition of > standards, in that everyone can have a unique one of their own. > If it is possible to write ANSI* C, then it is possible to teach ANSI C. > K&R explicitly leaves many choices, such as number of bits in each > variable type, up to the compiler author, and defends it as permitting > creating whatever would be best for the hardware platform. > That doesn't mean portable C can't be written (or taught). --T * insert favourite C standard. > "Standard Library", by the way, is NOT "standardized library". It is > "standard" as opposed to "optional equipment". Just as each individual > car model can have different "standard equipment", each compiler can have > enormous latitude in "standard library". Although some functions such as > printf() had better be included if the compiler author expects to survive, > there are many functions whose definitions are subject to interpretation. > For example, does puts() add a newline ('\n')? Many implementation > choices, rather than be codified or standardized are left open, and are > now often referred to as "undefined". Not "undefined" as in x/0 , but > "undefined" as in what does n=2; A[n++] = n++; do? > > > > A "standard" is "a ten foot pole with a flag on top". > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 19:03:03 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:03:03 -0400 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 6:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/30/2011 01:17 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to >>> implement a very crude Lisp in it. :?D >> >> Wouldn't be my weapon of choice, but if you really love BBC BASIC, then >> go for it. Maybe you could actually compile to BASIC source (& even >> exploit the inline 6502 assembler) :) > > BBC BASIC has an inline assembler for 6502?? Wow, that's wild. What > hardware would I need to cobble together to run that? It's a good little assembler. Because of the integration with BASIC, you get nice macro-ish facilities as well. It runs on the BBC Microcomputer, and the BBC BASIC ROM is the usual standard 16KB language ROM. You can probably get a BBC Micro on ebay; I have no idea how many, if any, were sold in North America. The BBC Micro Model B with 5.25" diskette drive (Watford DFS) was the first machine I had at home, and I used it for hours every day (writing assembler when I wasn't writing BASIC). The machines were networkable and we had a laboratory of about 20 of them, hooked up to a LAN file server with a 5(?)MB hard disk, hierarchical file system, and user directory/permissions system. This was around 1982-1986. I had a lot of fun playing with (abusing) the network primitives, such as sniffing the administrator password... For a long time I was never not in possession of that password. :) I still have the Econet programmer's reference - handed to me, a student, na?vely by the Acorn reseller; the sought-after pieces of information were the control block layouts and system call details. Armed with this you could cause quite a bit of havoc on the LAN; but we did use it for peaceful purposes as well. A friend set up a dozen machines playing the various instruments in Handel's (or Mozart's? memory fails me) Requiem and we used the network commands across the LAN as a music conductor, to achieve a synchronised beginning. --Toby > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 19:05:19 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:05:19 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4EADE63F.808@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 6:39 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au] wrote: > >> On 30/10/11 12:09 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>> ... >>> I agree that *testing* an end-user application on the least capable >>> acceptable hardware is a good idea. Even there though, I >> don't see how >>> forcing the developer to use that hardware for development achieves >>> anything other than slowing them down. >> >> Then how would *you* solve the perennial problem of software whose >> pointless sloth and bloat won't allow it to run well on >> anything but the >> latest hardware? > > My solution is in the bit you conveniently quoted above :-) True, but as you go on to say, it hasn't worked. > > Despite being the consensus here, it doesn't appear to work that well. > Maybe because nobody does it. The norm is forced upgrades? --T > If this were a problem for the majority of customers, then the market > would solve the issue > (i.e. someone else would release a competing product that didn't have > this issue but otherwise > worked at least "well enough"). > ... > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 19:22:55 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:22:55 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4EADEA5F.3020809@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 6:39 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au] wrote: > >> On 30/10/11 12:09 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>> There must be plenty of projects where a top-level build >> takes quite a >>> while. >> >> Sometimes due to incompetent build systems (in my >> experience). I am sure >> you've seen this Makefile more than once: >> >> exe : >> $(CC) -o $@ $^ > > Ours is just big. > >> That's a thoroughly valid exception, indeed. > > The embedded/dedicated hardware stuff isn't an exception - it's most of > my career :-) > But of course it isn't even an exception. It fits the rule perfectly: 'Test on what people actually use, not on what was purchased arbitrarily for whiny developers.' If nobody used anything less than a 2011 PC, the problem wouldn't exist. :) --T From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Oct 30 19:43:01 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 00:43:01 +0000 Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA030988@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Liam Proven Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 9:00 AM On 29 October 2011 03:15, Rich Alderson wrote: >> The way I *really* learned Lisp was by looking at toy implementations, >> especially one written in Pascal. [snip] > Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to > implement a very crude Lisp in it. :?D Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that would be very interesting. Writing a Pascal compiler for the DEC-20 in BASIC+2 was how I stopped doing my Ph. D. work in linguistics. > May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: > * Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. > * Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of > you." > * Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. Back when I saw first a version of this, Emacs Lisp wasn't on the radar, and H'sMC was not written, so perhaps I should be quiet. Back in the early days, when dinoLisps roamed the earth, there was a very successful variant called MACLISP. This ran on PDP-10s, under ITS and TOPS-20 and WAITS (the Tops-10 variant on SAIL), and on a GE-645 under Multics.[1] Now, there was a desire to have a version of the EMACS editor for the PDP-10 on Multics, because it had built into it an awareness of LISP syntax, even though it was written in a far more arcane language called TECO.[2] A bright fellow, Bernie Greenberg, thought to himself that with just a few tweaks, MACLISP could be used to create a version of EMACS on Multics, and proceeded to do so. At the same time, over at the MIT AI Lab, people were experimenting with new progamming languages all the time, and the best language for implementing new programming languages was LISP, and the best LISP was MACLISP. These folks were looking into problem-solving systems, and the first successful language of this type was PLANNER. This was followed by CONNIVER. Then, like a little mammaLisp among the dinoLisps, there arose SCHEME. This was written, like the others in MACLISP, and showed its dinoLisp DNA in places. SCHEME fell into the hands of the smaller-is-better enthusiasts, and had more and more of its origins trimmed away with each new revision. It is nearly perfect. This makes it hard to use, hard even to grasp, except by those who spend all of their time concentrating only on Scheme.[3] MACLISP continued along in its imperfections, influencing the development of Lisp machines, such as Symbolics, LMI and the TI Explorer, and of new variants of Lisp on strange architectures like the VAX (for example, NIL under VMS and Franz Lisp under Unix). So many variants of MACLISP arose that some felt a need to reduce the clutter. But these were people of vision, so they invited not only those who worked in the MACLISP variants, but the Standard Lisp/Portable Standard Lisp folks from Utah, and the InterLISP folks from Xerox, and the Schemers, to discuss what the common denominator of all these variants of Lisp might be. And so was born Common Lisp, which rather than being the refined intersection of all which was the ultimate fate of Scheme, became the enhanced union of all. In the mean time, those Lisp machines used editors which grew out of the Multics (!) version of EMACS written in MACLISP. The maintainer of the software for one manufacturer, LMI, who was the original author of EMACS in TECO, saw that this was good, and bethought himself that making this also available on Unix workstations (the wet dream of the day) would be a good idea, along the way to overthrowing the source-hoarding Unix hegemony. To do this, he created a version of Lisp explicitly tailored to writing text editors, and created a version of Emacs to run under his hypothetical OS, called GNU.[4] So while Scheme and Emacs Lisp and Common Lisp appear very different, they have at their hearts the same DNA. Hmm, I guess I did have a lot to say about it. Sorry 'bout that. [1] Or a Honeywell 6180 or follow-on. Anyway, a 36-bit Multics system. [2] Sure, TECO is an editor. But real TECO is Turing-complete. [3] OK, OK, IMAO. [4] GNU's Not Unix. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Oct 30 19:47:19 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 00:47:19 +0000 Subject: 1960 paper - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EAC0052.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAC0052.7090500@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0309C5@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Toby Thain Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 6:32 AM > On 28/10/11 10:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> If you get access JMC's 1960 paper in ACM, read it. > It's available online > http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive.html > via his home page, http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/ Thanks, Toby. I was still recovering from the 3-day turnaround trip to Germany, and didn't have the energy to hunt for it. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 19:48:48 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 00:48:48 +0000 Subject: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2011 10:16 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 10/30/2011 01:17 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> >>> Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to >>> implement a very crude Lisp in it. :?D >> >> >> Wouldn't be my weapon of choice, but if you really love BBC BASIC, then >> go for it. Maybe you could actually compile to BASIC source (& even >> exploit the inline 6502 assembler) :) > > > BBC BASIC has an inline assembler for 6502?? Wow, that's wild. What hardware would I need to cobble together to run that? The BBC Micro version does, yes. The CP/M, Z88 & Spectrum versions have Z80. The PC version does X86 & the Archimedes version has ARM assembler. It's a standard feature of the language. All version have it, AFAIK. BASIC is the only language I know well and am really comfortable in, so I picked the best BASIC there is. It's also the fastest interpreter there has ever been, as far as I know. Of you want to play with BBC BASIC, there's a FOSS interpreter called Brandy. It's reverse-engineered and not as fast, though. Richard T Russell owns the copyright now, I think, and does all the official ports. They are all closed, commercial software, though. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 19:58:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:58:37 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EADEA5F.3020809@telegraphics.com.au> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC>, <4EADEA5F.3020809@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2011 at 20:22, Toby Thain wrote: > But of course it isn't even an exception. It fits the rule perfectly: > 'Test on what people actually use, not on what was purchased > arbitrarily for whiny developers.' This brings up an interesting question. Has compilation speed generally kept pace with Moore's law? Getting C compilation speeds around 5000 lpm wasn't that unusual using a 5MHz 8088 with a hard disk. Borland Delphi running on a P90 claimed 350,000 lines per minute. Could one infer that today's compilation speeds are in the range of tens to hundreds of millions of lines per minute? Do any vendors even advertise a number? --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 30 20:06:31 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:06:31 +0000 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> Toby Thain wrote: > On 30/10/11 6:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> BBC BASIC has an inline assembler for 6502?? Wow, that's wild. What >> hardware would I need to cobble together to run that? > > It's a good little assembler. Because of the integration with BASIC, you > get nice macro-ish facilities as well. > > It runs on the BBC Microcomputer, and the BBC BASIC ROM is the usual > standard 16KB language ROM. You can probably get a BBC Micro on ebay; I > have no idea how many, if any, were sold in North America. Some thousands sold in the US (with modifications for NTSC and 60Hz, and changes to some spelling (COLOR for COLOUR, etc). I think it may have had a modified (for 110V) PSU, but I remember a story about that. I was working for an Acorn (who made the BBC Micro) distributor, and got a call from someone having trouble with a monitor. He was using his BBC Micro overseas -- ie not in the UK -- with a TV, but after buying a monitor instead couldn't get it to work. After a few questions, I realised he had been running the (unmodified) Beeb with a locally-purchased TV off 110V. The Beeb didn't mind, the TV was fine of course, but the monitor he'd bought on a previous trip back to the UK really did want 240V. Because the Beeb worked he'd never considered the voltage difference! Another way to get assembler in BBC BASIC, though with Z80 assembler rather than 6502, is R.T.Russell's BBC BASIC which runs under CP/M, and there are other implementations for other OSs (the Windows version has 80486 assembler). There's even one for UNIX, though I can't remember if that includes an assembler (I think not). http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcbasic.html http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcbasic/history.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 20:12:16 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:12:16 -0400 Subject: cunning Scheme - Re: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA030988@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA030988@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4EADF5F0.8050209@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 8:43 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > ... > Back in the early days, when dinoLisps roamed the earth, there was a very > successful variant called MACLISP. This ran on PDP-10s, ... > > At the same time, over at the MIT AI Lab, people were experimenting with new > progamming languages all the time, and the best language for implementing > new programming languages was LISP, and the best LISP was MACLISP. These > folks were looking into problem-solving systems, and the first successful > language of this type was PLANNER. This was followed by CONNIVER. Then, > like a little mammaLisp among the dinoLisps, there arose SCHEME. This was > written, like the others in MACLISP, and showed its dinoLisp DNA in places. > > SCHEME fell into the hands of the smaller-is-better enthusiasts, and had more > and more of its origins trimmed away with each new revision. It is nearly > perfect. This makes it hard to use, hard even to grasp, except by those who > spend all of their time concentrating only on Scheme.[3] Yet it is widely considered a good pedagogical language. Go figure :) --T > ... > > So while Scheme and Emacs Lisp and Common Lisp appear very different, they > have at their hearts the same DNA. > > Hmm, I guess I did have a lot to say about it. Sorry 'bout that. > ... > > Rich Alderson From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 30 20:57:18 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:57:18 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/30/11 5:58 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 30 Oct 2011 at 20:22, Toby Thain wrote: > >> But of course it isn't even an exception. It fits the rule perfectly: >> 'Test on what people actually use, not on what was purchased >> arbitrarily for whiny developers.' > > This brings up an interesting question. Has compilation speed > generally kept pace with Moore's law? Getting C compilation speeds > around 5000 lpm wasn't that unusual using a 5MHz 8088 with a hard > disk. Borland Delphi running on a P90 claimed 350,000 lines per > minute. > > Could one infer that today's compilation speeds are in the range of > tens to hundreds of millions of lines per minute? Do any vendors > even advertise a number? > > --Chuck I know that on sparc Niagra architecture (Sunacle T2000, T5120), GCC does not come even close to tens or hundeds of millions of lines per minute :( Heck I don't think it even gets close to a million lines in a minute. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 21:10:22 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:10:22 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC>, <4EADEA5F.3020809@telegraphics.com.au> <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EAE038E.9080502@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 8:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Oct 2011 at 20:22, Toby Thain wrote: > >> But of course it isn't even an exception. It fits the rule perfectly: >> 'Test on what people actually use, not on what was purchased >> arbitrarily for whiny developers.' > > This brings up an interesting question. Has compilation speed > generally kept pace with Moore's law? Getting C compilation speeds > around 5000 lpm wasn't that unusual using a 5MHz 8088 with a hard > disk. Borland Delphi running on a P90 claimed 350,000 lines per > minute. Has the concept of translating the source file blobs of your codebase into blobs of object code then linking them all together into a monolithic executable -- *every time you change the program* -- kept pace with modern concepts of software development? I mean, that's a bit primitive even relative to the state of the art in 1985*... > > Could one infer that today's compilation speeds are in the range of > tens to hundreds of millions of lines per minute? Do any vendors > even advertise a number? Phoronix seems to obsessively benchmark compilers. I'm not really sure why. --T * Genera, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_%28operating_system%29 Smalltalk-80, etc. > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 21:31:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:31:09 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAE038E.9080502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC>, <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EAE038E.9080502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EADA5FD.19430.240C6D8@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2011 at 22:10, Toby Thain wrote: > Has the concept of translating the source file blobs of your codebase > into blobs of object code then linking them all together into a > monolithic executable -- *every time you change the program* -- kept > pace with modern concepts of software development? I mean, that's a > bit primitive even relative to the state of the art in 1985*... No, but it's usually a good idea to recompile the whole thing occasionally someone may have screwed up the makefile or even mis- dated a file (it happens), particularly when a regression is observed. It would be nice to know if it was going to take seconds or hours... If seconds, why not recompile the thing as a whole all the time? I'd really start to get worried if the result of a complete compilation differed from an incremental one. I assume that most commercial software operations do a clean recompile from scratch for new releases. So if you have a billion lines of code in your codebase (that's 30 solid years of 24x7 coding at the rate of one line per second), is it going to take 10 minutes (coffee break) or 10 days (dead from dehydration)... --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 30 21:31:37 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA030988@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Oct 31, 11 00:43:01 am" Message-ID: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> > > Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to > > implement a very crude Lisp in it. :_D > > Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article > in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that > would be very interesting. Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Thank god [sic] the C64 has no 640 KB barrier :-) -- Jaque Moreau ---------- From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 30 21:35:07 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:35:07 -0400 Subject: how fast is gcc? - Re: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EAE095B.4040703@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 9:57 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 10/30/11 5:58 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >> On 30 Oct 2011 at 20:22, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> But of course it isn't even an exception. It fits the rule perfectly: >>> 'Test on what people actually use, not on what was purchased >>> arbitrarily for whiny developers.' >> >> This brings up an interesting question. Has compilation speed >> generally kept pace with Moore's law? Getting C compilation speeds >> around 5000 lpm wasn't that unusual using a 5MHz 8088 with a hard >> disk. Borland Delphi running on a P90 claimed 350,000 lines per >> minute. >> >> Could one infer that today's compilation speeds are in the range of >> tens to hundreds of millions of lines per minute? Do any vendors >> even advertise a number? >> >> --Chuck > > I know that on sparc Niagra architecture (Sunacle T2000, T5120), GCC does > not come even close to tens or hundeds of millions of lines per minute :( > Heck I don't think it even gets close to a million lines in a minute. What if you ran it on more than one core? Just a thought... :D --T From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sun Oct 30 22:09:35 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:09:35 -0400 Subject: Standards?? (Was: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 1:19 pm -0700 2011/10/30, Fred Cisin wrote: >This must be a different meaning of standardized than I was previously >familiar with. Or perhaps it meets with George Morrow's definition of >standards, in that everyone can have a unique one of their own. > >K&R explicitly leaves many choices, such as number of bits in each >variable type, up to the compiler author, and defends it as permitting >creating whatever would be best for the hardware platform. Likewise ANSI standard FORTRAN (or USASI standard FORTRAN, if you go back to '66), which nevertheless became the premier language for numeric processing. C89 and F90 both standardized means for programs to query and request certain properties of numeric types. >"Standard Library", by the way, is NOT "standardized library". It is for the past 22 years. >For example, does puts() add a newline ('\n')? Yes, and always has, since its appearance in V7 Unix; no room for interpretation there. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 30 22:41:11 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC>, <4EADEA5F.3020809@telegraphics.com.au> <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201110310341.XAA09772@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Could one infer that today's compilation speeds are in the range of > tens to hundreds of millions of lines per minute? One could. I suspect one would come to an incorrect conclusion by doing so, though, unless the contemplated situation involves using an 8088-era compiler. I just now tried compiling my tar (11301 lines, 304572 bytes) on my fastest CPU (one core of a 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo) and it compiled and linked in 1.8 seconds. That's a little over a third of a million lpm, for reasonably modern gcc on a reasonably modern machine. Unfortunatley I don't have an 8088-era compiler at ready hand to try. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 30 22:50:43 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:50:43 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EACF3D9.2060200@brouhaha.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> <4EACD0B6.3020004@neurotica.com>,<4EACF3D9.2060200@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com ---snip--- > > The more tricky problem was reading the code from an MK3870 single-chip > micro. When I did that, I didn't have a fast enough microcontroller, so > I used a board full of hardwired logic. Now there are plenty of > microcontrollers fast enough, and I have some more MK3870 series chips > that need to be read, so I need to design a new reader. > Hi Eric If you setup to do the 3870, I have a video brain that I've always wanted to extract the code from. I believe it had a 3870 as I recall. Dwight From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 30 22:57:09 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:57:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EADDD8B.6000703@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201110251039.p9PAdihU021236@imr-mb02.mx.aol.com> <4EA67D22.6724.201282@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA6A500.21573.BBCE20@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA715C1.7030009@neurotica.com> <4EA84BAF.9010705@neurotica.com> <201110300430.AAA15886@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5EE0.4020701@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301737.NAA29609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD95BB.2040100@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301851.OAA01124@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EADDD8B.6000703@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201110310357.XAA10054@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> A lot of development these days doesn't get compiled (e.g. PHP). >> Well, doesn't get compiled in the sense we're talking about here; I >> think PHP, and certainly many of the "doesn't get compiled" >> languages, do indeed get compiled, if only to pcode, when run. > Have you ever waited for that to happen? Probably, but rarely-to-never has it involved a human-perceptible wait (which I suspect is a "no" to the question you intended). >>>> [T]est build, in a ramdisk on a Core 2 Duo at 1.8GHz, and it took >>>> a minute fifty-four seconds. >>> One source file? Or many? >> Many. git. (There are worse - X, and NetBSD [...].) > Yes, if you are a programmer working on Xorg or NetBSD kernel, you > may want a reasonably modern machine. Not just the kernel; I mean all of NetBSD. The kernel by itself is comparatively quick to build. Comparatively. It's still slower than, say, git. :) I just did a test build on that same 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo I've been using as my test case for a reasonably modern machine (fastest machine I own, at any rate) and, with a pre-warmed disk cache (I did a grep over the kernel source tree to bring it all into cache), it built its own kernel in > If you are not, then you compile them infrequently :) Actually, that does not follow. I build NetBSD significantly more than I actually change it. This is for two reasons: (1) when I change it, I build it on multiple machines (all the machines which run the affected version), and (2) I do a build when installing a new machine even if I haven't touched it since last time around. However, it's reasonably likely that I still build them infrequently, for the value of "infrequently" you intended. :) >> I think the largest single source file I work with may be my tar, >> which is 304672 bytes, 11301 lines (I just checked). > How often do you modify and recompile that file? Repeat [ not at all for months, then heavily for a little while when doing something with it ]. "A little while" can be anything from half an hour to multiple days. > If you changed it every day, would you refactor? I don't know. Possibly, but also possibly not. Depends on too many other factors not stated in the question. I don't really have any perceived "I really oughta break this thing up" need, so... > Would there be any other benefits to breaking it into modules? ...I see no great need. There probably would be other benefits; I'm not sure whether the benefits would be worth the prices. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 23:08:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:08:36 -0700 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <201110310341.XAA09772@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC>, <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com>, <201110310341.XAA09772@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EADBCD4.30143.29A019E@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2011 at 23:41, Mouse wrote: > Unfortunatley I don't have an 8088-era compiler at ready hand to try. I do have a copy of Lattice C 2.0, which is more-or-less K&R. Unfortunately, it doesn't take any advantage of more advanced processor properties or instructions, so the comparison might be a little off. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 31 00:02:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:02:35 -0400 Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> References: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2011 10:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to >>> implement a very crude Lisp in it. :_D >> >> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article >> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that >> would be very interesting. > > Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. Seconded; anybody got that article as a PDF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Oct 31 00:38:51 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 05:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Pascal on the NorthStar was Re: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> References: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Oct 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/30/2011 10:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to >>>> implement a very crude Lisp in it. :_D >>> >>> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article >>> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that >>> would be very interesting. >> >> Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. > > Seconded; anybody got that article as a PDF? It's reprinted in "The BYTE Book of Pascal", of which I have a copy. If there isn't an online version already, I could scan it for you, but it'll probably be a while before I can get to it. Alexey From pinball at telus.net Sun Oct 30 20:37:36 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 18:37:36 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EADFBE0.6070105@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Holy cow, I think you've just found something that a Data I/O >>> UniSite won't handle. That's, umm, really unusual. (1702s >>> notwithstanding!) >>> >> How about the IMP-16 CROMs? Again, I think it takes a separate rig >> to read those. >> > > Or the HP512*8 or 256*16 masked ROMS that were used in the 9800 > calculators and HP instruemtns of the early-mid 1970s (there's one in the > 59309 digial clock for the HPIB state machine). Theyr'e mostly TTL > compatible, but have enalbe inputs you have to take to +12V, and need a > -2V bias supply. > > My experience is that programemrs will only 'officially' read the devices > thay can program, which of course excludes masked ROMs. If a masekd ROM > can be read as some programamble device (say a 2316 which cna be red a a > 2716, etc), then the prgorammer will read them. But if there never was a > user-prgoramamble version (as in the case of the above devices), then > it's unlikely that a programmer will be set up to read them. > > -tony > > I have an early Xeltek SuperPro (had the special PC card) and at the time bought also their Algorithym Generator program that they were letting out at the time - and is no longer available as far as I know (but haven't asked). This program would enable you to set up the SuperPro to read or write to any device, up to 40 pins, that would match the programmable parameters of the old SuperPro - which had a number of pins that it could designate as various Vcc voltages, and others that could be clock, etc. Each pin was not completely programable, but I was able to read 6530s on the device (which is now in storage), and thinking about it, it may be time to see if the programming program works with any of their later Superpros...hmm...ANOTHER project. However this one looks like fun! In case anyone needs it, I do have the ability to both read and write 1702s - I have two burners for that. One is from Andromeda Research - that can only read 1702s (handy for archiving). The other is a Pro-Log with the 1702 module, this worked the last time I fired it up - a few years ago - for a customer. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 03:19:41 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:19:41 +0100 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/10/24 Shoppa, Tim > > Why are the LED drivers so difficult to make, is it because of the > 'high' (a few mA) current ? > > Most of the handheld devices of the 70's used multiplexed displays (well, > still true today) and while the average LED current might be a few mA per > segment, the peak current in the drivers could be ten times higher. > > Some of the intended-to-be-driven-by-PMOS-driver-chips of the 70's are > still around today and put to other good uses. e.g. ULN2002. > Ahh yes I see. So if you multiplex 8 leds you need 8 times the peak current to keep the same luminance ? Regards Benjamin -- Med venlig hilsen / Best regards Benjamin S?lberg From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 31 03:29:16 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:29:16 -0700 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EAE5C5C.3040503@brouhaha.com> Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > So if you multiplex 8 leds you need 8 times the peak current to keep the > same luminance ? 8:1 multiplex requires 8 times the peak current to get the same average power. Years ago I saw some claims that with multiplexing you can use lower average power for the same perceptual brightness, due to retinal persistence. However, I've seen other people claim that this is not true. It would be entertaining to set up a double-blind test and find out. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 31 04:02:26 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:02:26 +0000 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 1:06 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I was working for an Acorn (who made the BBC Micro) distributor, and got a Neat! I've got an Acorn hidden in the loft, and a load of games on tape... they should really be archived some how, but I don't know how to do it... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 04:38:58 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:38:58 +0100 Subject: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: <760264FA-DE2C-40BA-8718-A9F17C777189@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2011/10/25 Dan Roganti > > From what I read about on the various rockwell PPS-4 websites, the /1 > chipset is either a 76xx or 77xx part#. At the moment, I don't recognize > your part#. > That is understandable... Further investigation from others on this list has shown that my part really isn't a PPS-4/1 but a custom chip based on common ancestor calculator chip.. Bummer. > I do believe (again from internet sources) that the PPS-4/2 means that a > minimal system could be made of two chips, a PPS-4/2 and a combined > RAM/ROM. > > That could be, you need the 10696EE Support chip to interface some RAM. But > this chipset still needs one of the I/O support chips, a 10696EE, A1752EF, > or 10788EB to talk with the real world :) > One mail on this list has given me more information that 20 hours searching the net. I thank you all. > Maybe this is a 4bit embedded version as in a TMS1000 found in the Big > Trak. > Unfortunately no, see above... Totally custom... > > > > > I am also guessing that since the chip ends with EA it could have a > "electrically alterable" rom instead of a maskable rom. > > None of the PPS-4 parts I've seen or have here are any 'EA' versions, only > masked Rom. > Correct again.. I just 'wished' that I was correct on this one... Please let us know if you find some more info. > > =Dan > I got full spec of the PPS-4 and some of the ram/rom chips in the same family. I was rather impressed with the complexity of the chip. I have done my share of z80, 6501, arm, x86 but looking back on a 1972 4 bit chip and see that much has changed but then again not so much was very enlighten. I still get amazed about the history of electronics and space stuff. Just think about what they did in the '60 with the space program.... thats 50 years ago.. Think about Einstein. I took me many years to just accept (& understanding part of) normal and special relativity. And special relativity is more than 100 years old... Amazing! Med venlig hilsen / Best regards Benjamin S?lberg From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 04:51:38 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:51:38 +0100 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted Message-ID: 2011/10/31 Eric Smith > Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > > So if you multiplex 8 leds you need 8 times the peak current to keep the > > same luminance ? > > 8:1 multiplex requires 8 times the peak current to get the same average > power. Years ago I saw some claims that with multiplexing you can use > lower average power for the same perceptual brightness, due to retinal > persistence. However, I've seen other people claim that this is not true. > It would be entertaining to set up a double-blind test and find out. > > I would expect a double-blind person would say that he couldn't see any difference :-) Joke-a-side.. If multiplexing really did save power then just pulsing a single led would do the same.. It might be true... think bicycle lights ? -- Med venlig hilsen / Best regards Benjamin S?lberg From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 31 06:29:55 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:29:55 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EADA5FD.19430.240C6D8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC>, <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EAE038E.9080502@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADA5FD.19430.240C6D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EAE86B3.4050707@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/10/11 10:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Oct 2011 at 22:10, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Has the concept of translating the source file blobs of your codebase >> into blobs of object code then linking them all together into a >> monolithic executable -- *every time you change the program* -- kept >> pace with modern concepts of software development? I mean, that's a >> bit primitive even relative to the state of the art in 1985*... > > No, but it's usually a good idea to recompile the whole thing > occasionally someone may have screwed up the makefile or even mis- > dated a file (it happens), particularly when a regression is > observed. It would be nice to know if it was going to take seconds > or hours... If seconds, why not recompile the thing as a whole all > the time? I'd really start to get worried if the result of a > complete compilation differed from an incremental one. So would I. I'd probably try to fix the makefile. :D > > I assume that most commercial software operations do a clean > recompile from scratch for new releases. So if you have a billion > lines of code in your codebase (that's 30 solid years of 24x7 coding I don't think much commercial software weighs in at 1,000,000,000 lines - yet. But you'd need an efficient build system if it did. But this conversation is about what developers do every day. Release builds would often not be built on the developer's machine. --Toby > at the rate of one line per second), is it going to take 10 minutes > (coffee break) or 10 days (dead from dehydration)... > > --Chuck > > > > From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 31 07:15:00 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:15:00 +0000 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201110311215.p9VCF3x8030177@ims-d12.mx.aol.com> From: Cameron Kaiser >> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article >> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that >> would be very interesting. > > Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. Odd that this should come up now. I sent Dave (hello, Dave!) a link to the Tiny C package including a paper by Dennis Ritchie last week. I have these BYTE issues but nowhere to host them. If someone wants to give me an FTP site I can upload the 3 whole issues or I can extract just the Tiny Pascal stuff and try to make a PDF out of it. A couple of guys were hosting a ton of BYTE scans. I don't know if the links are still any good but if anybody wants them, let me know and I'll post them on this list. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Wants: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris SPARC | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | | Stony Brook Modula-2 for Solaris SPARC | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 Intel and Solaris 10 SPARC | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 08:08:41 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:08:41 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAE86B3.4050707@telegraphics.com.au> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC> <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EAE038E.9080502@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADA5FD.19430.240C6D8@cclist.sydex.com> <4EAE86B3.4050707@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I suspect that most compilers have moved from a "generate code as quickly as possible" strategy to a "generate as quick of code as possible" strategy today. Seems like a good move, IMHO. Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 31 08:09:11 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311215.p9VCF3x8030177@ims-d12.mx.aol.com> from "vintagecoder@aol.com" at "Oct 31, 11 12:15:00 pm" Message-ID: <201110311309.p9VD9BfM014964@floodgap.com> > I have these BYTE issues but nowhere to host them. If someone wants to give > me an FTP site I can upload the 3 whole issues or I can extract just the > Tiny Pascal stuff and try to make a PDF out of it. I'm mostly just interested in the Tiny [Language] stuff, since that's good starting points for minimal implementations. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The World is Not Enough" -------------------------- From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 08:13:38 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:13:38 -0400 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Acorn made some nice machines. Does anybody know if the RISC OS version of BBC BASIC includes inline ARM assembly support? That would be fun. Mike From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 08:27:21 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:27:21 -0400 Subject: how fast is gcc? - Re: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAE095B.4040703@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EAE095B.4040703@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <56FA8562-6EC8-4D87-A3B7-73F05296747F@gmail.com> On Oct 30, 2011, at 10:35 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> This brings up an interesting question. Has compilation speed >>> generally kept pace with Moore's law? Getting C compilation speeds >>> around 5000 lpm wasn't that unusual using a 5MHz 8088 with a hard >>> disk. Borland Delphi running on a P90 claimed 350,000 lines per >>> minute. >>> >>> Could one infer that today's compilation speeds are in the range of >>> tens to hundreds of millions of lines per minute? Do any vendors >>> even advertise a number? I'll say with a fair degree of confidence that compilers, like everything else, tend to bloat with more processing power available. They also tend to slow down with the bloat of the operating system (if disk accesses take more cycles for small operations, for example). It's frustrating to those of us trying to run modern OSes on older hardware; NetBSD on my Power Mac 9500 used to run like lightning, and now it's painfully slow due to a combination of much slower disk accesses and increased overhead in GCC 4.5 vs. the 3.x series. I don't even want to think how it'll run on my 68k boxes. Even on modern (but slower) hardware, it's a problem. Running compiles from the ramdisk on OpenBSD on my 1.6GHz Atom runs about as fast per file (which really tends to be the grain I measure against, since the setup/teardown of GCC can be the limiting factor on slower machines) as my 500 MHz K6-2 did from hard disk ten years ago. Of course, that was running Linux, so the comparison is not scientifically valid since we're comparing blowfish to penguins. :-) - Dave From jonas at otter.se Mon Oct 31 08:07:04 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:07:04 +0100 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <347c064bc5dc7114d49661f853fe5fc8@otter.se> >> >> >> the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it? That way all the >> people >> >> along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, >> instead >> >> just throwing it in the back of the truck. >> >> >> > >> > You _are_ kidding, right? >> >> >> Not at all. >> Is it that far fetched that there would be service levels? > > Mybe not, but practical experience has taught me that no matter how > much > you pay, the package is likely to be dropped at some point. You still > need to pack it properly, to withstand this. > > However careful they claim to be, things can go wrong. Personally, > I'd > rather spend more time in packing a rare device properly than have it > wrecked. > > And to return to the ASR33, I'd not want to move one myself, say on > the > back seat of a car, without either tying down or reemoving the typing > unit. > >> When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better >> support, from more experienced techs? > > Well, I've never paied for support on anything, but however > experienced > the techs are, there will surely be soemthing they don't know. So > however > mcuh you pay, there wil lbe problems they can't solve quickly. Same > with > shipping old hardware. You may pay for a better service, but the > parcel > could still slip from soembody's hands. > Some years ago I was out of work and was temporarily employed in a warehouse, packing fragile items e.g. DVD boxes, jewel cases for CDs etc on pallets and in cartons, and driving a forklift. Sooner or later, **everybody** who drove the forklift would either drop a pallet from a few metres up, or cause a stack of pallets to fall over. It was also not very difficult to have a pallet fall off the back of the lorry when you were loading or unloading it. That doesn't mean we were careless, just that there are a lot of things that can make accidents like that happen: sloping loading docks, bumps in the floor, unstable loads, a slip of the foot or your hand on the levers or pedals, someone disturbing you at a sensitive moment, etc etc. On one occasion a lorry driver had I think it was 6 pallets fall off his lorry all at once. However well-meaning and careful the freighter or lorry driver or forklift operator, inevitably someone will have a bad day, or just be unlucky. In other words, any number of "Fragile" labels will make absolutely no difference at all, you will simply have to pack your item to stand falling off the back of a lorry if you want it to arrive undamaged. /Jonas From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 08:42:14 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:42:14 -0400 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2011, at 5:02 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > Neat! I've got an Acorn hidden in the loft, and a load of games on > tape... they should really be archived some how, but I don't know how > to do it... If the tape encoding system is anything like the really simple FM the Apple II used, a raw PCM file should do fine (and even MP3 might be acceptable). If you wanted to get fancy, you could write an equivalent program to ADT for the Apple II to transcode the audio to bits. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 08:47:49 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:47:49 -0400 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2011, at 5:51 AM, Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > Joke-a-side.. If multiplexing really did save power then just pulsing a > single led would do the same.. > It might be true... think bicycle lights ? Pulse width modulation is generally considered the "proper" way of dimming an LCD, since varying the voltage just doesn't work well (the threshold area is highly non-linear and inconsistent across devices) and current variation also produces inconsistent results across devices. Running about a 1KHz pulse to the LED and varying the duty cycle works quite well. Unfortunately, some car manufacturers (in the US, I'm thinking of Cadillacs especially) got hold of this idea and decided to drop the PWM frequency down from about a KHz (where the human eye can't see the flicker) to just a handful of Hz, so that on a dark night, as you move your eyes, the tail lights scatter themselves across your field of view like animation frames. It's very distracting and irritating, and I doubt the lower frequency saved them more than a few cents per $30,000 car in drive electronics. - Dave From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 31 09:08:05 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:08:05 +0000 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311309.p9VD9BfM014964@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201110311408.p9VE88Vd006999@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com> > I'm mostly just interested in the Tiny [Language] stuff, since that's > good starting points for minimal implementations. If nobody comes up with a place to host the 3 full issues in the next few days, I'll try to make a PDF and email it to you. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 31 09:21:58 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how fast is gcc? - Re: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <56FA8562-6EC8-4D87-A3B7-73F05296747F@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Oct 31, 11 09:27:21 am" Message-ID: <201110311421.p9VELw8c009610@floodgap.com> > I don't even want to think how it'll run on my 68k boxes. I have been unhappy with the amount of bloat creeping into recent NetBSD versions. For my internal systems where security is less of a concern, I keep them on 1.x. My IIci running 1.5.2 has uptime measured in years. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Do me a favour: don't breed. -- "Sledge Hammer!" --------------------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 09:25:44 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:25:44 -0400 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAE038E.9080502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <05C0B22598814E65B4136AF00A39C12C@ANTONIOPC>, <4EADEA5F.3020809@telegraphics.com.au> <4EAD904D.748.1EC114C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EAE038E.9080502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2011, at 10:10 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Has the concept of translating the source file blobs of your codebase into blobs of object code then linking them all together into a monolithic executable -- *every time you change the program* -- kept pace with modern concepts of software development? I mean, that's a bit primitive even relative to the state of the art in 1985*... It's interesting you should mention that; years ago, Apple's XCode developer tools (basically a nice IDE wrapping around a GCC toolchain) had a "zerolink" option for development that didn't bother to link and instead treated each object file as a dynamic library. It certainly saved a lot of time linking large programs. It was nice for development if you had a program that took forever to link, but I found it to be a bit of a pain in the ass for debugging because link errors (mainly undefined symbols due to forgetting to include a .c file, which the compiler didn't catch but the linker would) happened mysteriously at runtime instead of at link time. I'm sure that could be solved by adding a separate (fast) pass just to resolve all references instead of doing a full link, but Apple pulled zerolink out a while back anyway (presumably because machines got fast enough that no one cared about the long link time anymore). It's certainly a paradigm I wouldn't mind seeing go the way of the dodo, but for everyday use stuff, it's certainly a tradeoff in speed between the developer and the user; if everything has to be linked at runtime (see: Java, which admittedly also has the JIT overhead and manifold problems of its own), startup times for even simple applications increase by several orders of magnitude, which drives average users up the wall. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 09:30:06 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:30:06 -0400 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311215.p9VCF3x8030177@ims-d12.mx.aol.com> References: <201110311215.p9VCF3x8030177@ims-d12.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <9382749F-A943-4798-9825-120F0795343A@gmail.com> On Oct 31, 2011, at 8:15 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > From: Cameron Kaiser > >>> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article >>> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that >>> would be very interesting. >> >> Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. > > Odd that this should come up now. I sent Dave (hello, Dave!) a link to the > Tiny C package including a paper by Dennis Ritchie last week. > > I have these BYTE issues but nowhere to host them. If someone wants to give > me an FTP site I can upload the 3 whole issues or I can extract just the > Tiny Pascal stuff and try to make a PDF out of it. I'll be glad to host them. If you can SFTP, respond privately and I'll give you a location (or if you can share with Dropbox, so much the better). - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 31 09:33:52 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311408.p9VE88Vd006999@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com> from "vintagecoder@aol.com" at "Oct 31, 11 02:08:05 pm" Message-ID: <201110311433.p9VEXrk4009672@floodgap.com> > > I'm mostly just interested in the Tiny [Language] stuff, since that's > > good starting points for minimal implementations. > > If nobody comes up with a place to host the 3 full issues in the next few > days, I'll try to make a PDF and email it to you. I don't think I can host the whole issues, but I'd be happy to host PDFs of the specific articles. I'd probably put them up on the gopher server. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why is it you can only trust short, dumpy spies? -- Hogan, "Hogan's Heroes" From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 31 09:36:43 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:36:43 +0000 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311408.p9VE88Vd006999@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com> References: <201110311309.p9VD9BfM014964@floodgap.com> <201110311408.p9VE88Vd006999@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 2:08 PM, wrote: >> I'm mostly just interested in the Tiny [Language] stuff, since that's >> good starting points for minimal implementations. > > If nobody comes up with a place to host the 3 full issues in the next few > days, I'll try to make a PDF and email it to you. > I can put them on retrobbs.cortex-media.info if you like. I'd be happy to have them up there permanently. (and to read them, for that matter...) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 31 10:14:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:14:08 -0400 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311433.p9VEXrk4009672@floodgap.com> References: <201110311433.p9VEXrk4009672@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EAEBB40.8020808@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2011 10:33 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I'm mostly just interested in the Tiny [Language] stuff, since that's >>> good starting points for minimal implementations. >> >> If nobody comes up with a place to host the 3 full issues in the next few >> days, I'll try to make a PDF and email it to you. > > I don't think I can host the whole issues, but I'd be happy to host PDFs > of the specific articles. I'd probably put them up on the gopher server. I can host as much of that sort of stuff as you want here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 31 10:14:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:14:56 -0400 Subject: how fast is gcc? - Re: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <201110311421.p9VELw8c009610@floodgap.com> References: <201110311421.p9VELw8c009610@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EAEBB70.4020305@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2011 10:21 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I don't even want to think how it'll run on my 68k boxes. > > I have been unhappy with the amount of bloat creeping into recent NetBSD > versions. For my internal systems where security is less of a concern, I > keep them on 1.x. My IIci running 1.5.2 has uptime measured in years. Same here. I've often thought about forking NetBSD around 1.6 or so, but that'd be a huge amount of work, and who has the time.. The bloat has even gotten so bad that one of the early NetBSD core developers, who was gainfully employed generating embedded versions of NetBSD for consumer digital cameras and stuff for many years, dumped NetBSD for Linux for those types of applications. Scary. (that's second-hand info, but reliable) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From doc at vaxen.net Mon Oct 31 10:19:01 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:19:01 -0500 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EAEBC65.5090206@vaxen.net> Paul Anderson wrote: > One DEC terminal in particular I ship in a new 24x24x20 box. It weighs > between 35-40 pounds and I've shipped dozens over the years. I had a > request to ship 3 Fed-Ex ground and thought nothing of it. A week > later, I had to ship another and the person at the counter, who I've > known for years, asked if one of the last batch was damaged. I said > yes, and he replied it was probably because it was shipped ground. I > thought about it, and I had never shipped one ground before. > > I drop off my packages at Fed-Ex and UPS at the terminal. This is one of the reasons I love Forward Air for shipping large fragile items. Pallets and vinyl strapping are dirt cheap and dock-to-dock shipping bypasses almost all of the carrier's chances to break something. Doc Shipley From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 31 10:25:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:25:07 -0400 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311215.p9VCF3x8030177@ims-d12.mx.aol.com> References: <201110311215.p9VCF3x8030177@ims-d12.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EAEBDD3.5050904@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2011 08:15 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >>> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article >>> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that >>> would be very interesting. >> >> Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. > > Odd that this should come up now. I sent Dave (hello, Dave!) a link to the > Tiny C package including a paper by Dennis Ritchie last week. Hey! I'm sorry I haven't replied to personal mail, I don't mean to be rude, I'm just really buried with the new job and am really short of time. I'll get to that shortly. > I have these BYTE issues but nowhere to host them. If someone wants to give > me an FTP site I can upload the 3 whole issues or I can extract just the > Tiny Pascal stuff and try to make a PDF out of it. > > A couple of guys were hosting a ton of BYTE scans. I don't know if the > links are still any good but if anybody wants them, let me know and I'll > post them on this list. If they're the same links I have, I downloaded all that stuff here, 51GB worth. There are a lot of doubles; I haven't gone through them to find out if they're actually different scans or what. Does anyone know what issue the Tiny Pascal stuff is in? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 10:37:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 08:37:36 -0700 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EAE5E50.10333.1D1530@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2011 at 10:51, Benjamin S?lberg wrote: > Joke-a-side.. If multiplexing really did save power then just pulsing > a single led would do the same.. It might be true... think bicycle > lights ? Actually, that appears to be true. The perceived brightness seems to lie somewhere between the peak brightness and the average. See, for example, this app note from ON Semi: http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/AND8067-D.PDF --Chuck From ats at offog.org Mon Oct 31 09:10:39 2011 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:10:39 +0000 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: (Michael Kerpan's message of "Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:13:38 -0400") References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Michael Kerpan writes: > Does anybody know if the RISC OS version of BBC BASIC includes inline > ARM assembly support? Yes, it does. See Pete Cockerell's book for some examplse: http://www.peter-cockerell.net/aalp/ J. G. Harston's site has a more comprehensive list of BBC BASIC implementations, including his own for the PDP-11 (which, sadly, doesn't appear to have inline assembly yet): http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/ -- Adam Sampson From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 11:29:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:29:51 -0700 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4EAE6A8F.7403.4CEC90@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2011 at 9:47, David Riley wrote: > It's very distracting and irritating, and I doubt the lower frequency > saved them more than a few cents per $30,000 car in drive electronics. We're approaching the time of year when my field of vision is polluted with those damned flickering LED outdoor Christmas tree light displays. I must have some sort of visual impairment because I can pick out the flicker from a mile away--literally. It reminds me of a nest of ants crawling all over the display. It seems that the usual method of implmentation (in the US, anyway) is to use a string of LEDs to self-rectify the AC line current, resulting in a pronouced 60Hz flicker. I picked up a couple of strings of said lights last year (GE brand) and hooked them to a fullwave bridge rectifier, with a single large (220 ?F filter cap). The flickering ceased, but the quailty of light is rather harsh, particularly when compared side-by-side with an incandescent string. l suspect it won't be long before consumer and legislative pressures means that our Christmas seasons will be uniformly polluted by hordes of ants dancing over our lighting displays. Moral: Even a 60Hz multiplex rate is too slow for some people's vision. --Chuck From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 31 11:40:08 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:40:08 +0000 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <4EAEBDD3.5050904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110311640.p9VGeD1C030637@imr-db01.mx.aol.com> From: Dave McGuire > Hey! I'm sorry I haven't replied to personal mail, I don't mean to be > rude, I'm just really buried with the new job and am really short of > time. I'll get to that shortly. Yeah I figured the best way to reach you is on this list ;) And congrats on the new job! >> I have these BYTE issues but nowhere to host them. If someone wants to >> give me an FTP site I can upload the 3 whole issues or I can extract just >> the Tiny Pascal stuff and try to make a PDF out of it. >> >> A couple of guys were hosting a ton of BYTE scans. I don't know if the >> links are still any good but if anybody wants them, let me know and I'll >> post them on this list. > If they're the same links I have, I downloaded all that stuff here, > 51GB worth. There are a lot of doubles; I haven't gone through them to > find out if they're actually different scans or what. I got everything I could find which is from the 1st issue September 1975 until December 1986 with almost no gaps. Without dupes it's 37G. > Does anyone know what issue the Tiny Pascal stuff is in? Part 1 : August 1978 : Vol 03 Number 08 Part 2 : October 1978 : Vol 03 Number 10 Part 3 : November 1978 : Vol 03 Number 11 Dave if you already have this and can host it, let us know. If not, I'll start going through the list of people who have offered to host it in chronological order and see if they can help. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 11:42:24 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:42:24 -0400 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EAE6A8F.7403.4CEC90@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EAE6A8F.7403.4CEC90@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2011, at 12:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Oct 2011 at 9:47, David Riley wrote: > >> It's very distracting and irritating, and I doubt the lower frequency >> saved them more than a few cents per $30,000 car in drive electronics. > > We're approaching the time of year when my field of vision is > polluted with those damned flickering LED outdoor Christmas tree > light displays. I must have some sort of visual impairment because I > can pick out the flicker from a mile away--literally. It reminds me > of a nest of ants crawling all over the display. I've noticed the same thing. Again, a few cents would get them the proper rectification, as you described, but given that they probably spend only a few bucks on producing the strings, it would eat into someone's profits in China. > Moral: Even a 60Hz multiplex rate is too slow for some people's > vision. 60Hz refresh always gave me headaches with computer monitors, but never with TVs. I suspect it may be because the phosphors on computer monitors decayed faster (in order to ghost less, I suppose?), but an LED decays nearly instantaneously. That's why you have to get the PWM frequency up in at least the hundreds of Hz, because the rods and cones in your eyeball pick up the change fairly quickly. Of course, it does seem to be up to individual anatomy, much like with televisions; my father swears he can't tell the difference between an old NTSC TV and 1080p, but I think he's just being contrary. :-) - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 11:48:33 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:48:33 -0400 Subject: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <201110301739.NAA29657@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <4EA89AAF.1010407@telegraphics.com.au> <201110271919.p9RJJ5bO066515@billy.ezwind.net> <201110282020.p9SKK25f010200@billy.ezwind.net> <201110300454.AAA16368@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EAD5FA8.9080109@telegraphics.com.au> <201110301739.NAA29657@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Mouse wrote: >> C is standardised... > > You can't teach "standard C" without picking a standard, too. ?There > are at least three (K&R v1, ANSI C, and C99) and probably more that I'm > not aware of or which don't come to mind immediately. Long ago, I ran across one environment that wasn't fully conformant with even K&R - mostly, but there were a few warts that occasionally caused stumbles. It might have been the Whitesmith's C compiler for VMS from 1982 or 1983 or so (we stuck with that same compiler into the 90s because migrating that codebase to DEC's VAX-C was a traumatic and drawn-out process). To be fair, it also might have been standard library implementation issues that I'm remembering, not the compiler itself, but I do remember importing code from elsewhere that ought to have worked but did not. -et From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 31 11:50:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:50:22 -0400 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311640.p9VGeD1C030637@imr-db01.mx.aol.com> References: <201110311640.p9VGeD1C030637@imr-db01.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EAED1CE.2070208@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2011 12:40 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> Hey! I'm sorry I haven't replied to personal mail, I don't mean to be >> rude, I'm just really buried with the new job and am really short of >> time. I'll get to that shortly. > > Yeah I figured the best way to reach you is on this list ;) And congrats on > the new job! Thanks! I'm loving it! >> If they're the same links I have, I downloaded all that stuff here, >> 51GB worth. There are a lot of doubles; I haven't gone through them to >> find out if they're actually different scans or what. > > I got everything I could find which is from the 1st issue September 1975 > until December 1986 with almost no gaps. Without dupes it's 37G. Ok. >> Does anyone know what issue the Tiny Pascal stuff is in? > > Part 1 : August 1978 : Vol 03 Number 08 > Part 2 : October 1978 : Vol 03 Number 10 > Part 3 : November 1978 : Vol 03 Number 11 > > Dave if you already have this and can host it, let us know. If not, I'll > start going through the list of people who have offered to host it in > chronological order and see if they can help. I do have them, and yes I can host them. They're now up at: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/BYTE-TinyPascal-issues/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 31 12:21:42 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:21:42 -0500 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <4EAED1CE.2070208@neurotica.com> References: <201110311640.p9VGeD1C030637@imr-db01.mx.aol.com> <4EAED1CE.2070208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201110311722.p9VHM3Cc086720@billy.ezwind.net> I believe the source code files are available in this Yahoo group. Other info below. Google found a lot of info, too. - John To: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20060221200039.94993.qmail at web32502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 68.142.201.182 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Ed Davis X-Yahoo-Profile: ed_davis2 Sender: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com; contact UCSDPascal-owner at yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:33:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [UCSDPascal] Tiny Pascal Reply-To: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: --- Eric Scharff wrote: > In a question peripherally related to UCSD pascal, I recently > discovered "Tiny Pascal." > > In Byte Magazine Vol. 3 Nos. 9, 10, and 11 (Sep 1978, Oct 1978, > Nov 1978) there is an article written by Kin-Man Chung and > Herbert Yuen describing a "Tiny Pascal" compiler. Tiny Pascal > compiles a subset of pascal to p-code, and then translates that > p-code into 8080 assembly. The compiler is written in North > Star BASIC. > > I found the articles in the local library, but I noticed that > the listings are incomplete (especially the p-code to 8080 > translation program is absent) > > I'm interested in tracking down the history and sources of this > compiler. I have heard that it was ported to many other 8-bit > machines. I'm trying to track down working versions of this > compiler and those from which it was derived. I'm told that > Lazer Pascal was a Tiny Pascal derivative. > > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. > Get a copy of the Byte Book of Pascal. You can get it used for $10 or so. It appears to contain the complete sources. On the web, I've found the following: 1) http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/SIMTEL/CPMUG/CPMUG050.ARK This is an implementation for CP/M. The source for Tiny Pascal is in a non standard Pascal dialect. It claims to compile itself, however. Translates to p-code. There is no p-code interpreter, but there is a p-code to 8080 machine code translator. While this one does not mention Chung's and Yuen's version, it is obviously derived from it, as it uses some of the same p-code extensions, and compiles pretty much the same Pascal subset. 2) http://cq-pan.cqu.edu.au/david-jones/Projects/rcos/software/rcos.zip This is an implementation for MS-DOS. Only translates to p-code. Tiny Pascal is written in Pascal, and the documentation says that it was translated from the Northstar Basic sources. I would be interested to hear about anything you come up with or do regarding Tiny Pascal! To: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com References: <20060221200039.94993.qmail at web32502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20060221200039.94993.qmail at web32502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 66.37.197.102 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: willi at allvantage.com From: willi at wilserv.com X-Yahoo-Profile: wilserv_41 Sender: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com; contact UCSDPascal-owner at yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com List-Id: Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 02:23:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [UCSDPascal] Tiny Pascal Reply-To: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: Hi! Quoting Eric: > In a question peripherally related to UCSD pascal, I recently > discovered "Tiny Pascal." KMMM Pascal had its genesis in Tiny Pascal. The early versions of KMMM Pascal were based on Tiny Pascal so I paid a royalty to Chung and Yuen. At some point all component parts of KMMM Pascal were coded in assembly language. KMMM Pascal was available for the Commodore PET a few years before the C64 was released. I got my hands on a C64 shortly after it was released and discovered that the ROMs in the C64 weren't much different than those in the PET. So it took me just a couple of weeks to get the C64 version of KMMM Pascal working. Willi From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 13:08:01 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:08:01 -0700 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EAE6A8F.7403.4CEC90@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAE6A8F.7403.4CEC90@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > l suspect it won't be long before consumer and legislative pressures > means that our Christmas seasons will be uniformly polluted by hordes > of ants dancing over our lighting displays. > It might be an interesting project to take a few strings of these lights and build something like a Life display. You would be the envy of all of your retro-computing neighbors. http://www.deepdarc.com/2010/11/27/hacking-christmas-lights/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 31 14:27:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:27:36 -0600 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> Message-ID: $20K with reserve not met? The guy must be asking like $50K for it. I'm not sure its worth even $20K, but the glamour of it with Jobs recently having died will probably pull in some whales. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 31 14:30:55 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:30:55 -0600 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I guess, YMMV. One problem with styro peanuts is that they will > allow heavy objects to shift in the package. Only if they aren't packed tight and voids are allowed to form. I'm telling you, Ive received VERY heavy Indigo2s packed in peanuts sent from across the country and they did not shift. > I've received items packed in styro peanuts only and they've been > heavily damaged because the object was allowed to move in the box. Again. THIS IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE PEANUTS. THIS IS THE FAUL OF IMPROPER PACKING. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 14:50:32 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:50:32 -0400 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Richard wrote: > > $20K with reserve not met? > > The guy must be asking like $50K for it. I'm not sure its worth even > $20K, but the glamour of it with Jobs recently having died will > probably pull in some whales. Maybe he should cold-call Disney - I believe their old CAPS system was built mainly of PICs, and since scrapping them they only have one workstation left. Not so good when they plan on re-releasing their 90's films in IMAX / 4K / 3d / whatever formats. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 31 14:55:45 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:55:45 -0600 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: <4EA99E4B.5030900@vaxen.net> References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> <4EA99E4B.5030900@vaxen.net> Message-ID: In article <4EA99E4B.5030900 at vaxen.net>, Doc writes: > I have. Peanuts *will* shift if the shipped item is dense, no matter > how tightly packed in. Sooner or later the item will be sitting flat on > the bottom of the box. I disagree and when packed in properly I've never had this happen with heavy items. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 31 14:56:41 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:56:41 -0600 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , David Riley writes: > How do you usually get around the fluid dynamic problem? If you're truly paranoid about it, you can put them in a bag. > I've found wadded up newsprint to be a surprisingly good packing material Absolutely horrible. Does absolutely nothing to protect items that weigh anything more than a few ounces. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 31 14:57:56 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:57:56 -0600 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EA96866.31315.128FC71@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA96866.31315.128FC71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4EA96866.31315.128FC71 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > [...] and use some scrap > foam blocks to support the object off the bottom of the box. *EVERY* package I've received with "scrap foam" blocks has been damaged. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doc at vaxen.net Mon Oct 31 14:59:36 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:59:36 -0500 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: <20111027172038.E10501@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD@cclist.sydex.com> <20111027172038.E10501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4EAEFE28.9090606@vaxen.net> On 10/27/11 7:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, always select carefully to make sure that you find newspapers whose > content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to > the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland > Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always > welcom in certain states. I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper, turned out to be very explicit porn. I wasn't as offended as probably should have been. Doc From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Oct 31 16:10:35 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:10:35 -0300 Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA030988@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA030988@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201110312012.p9VKCgQp092288@billy.ezwind.net> Rich Alderson wrote: > [lots of good stuff] > At the same time, over at the MIT AI Lab, people were experimenting with new > progamming languages all the time, and the best language for implementing > new programming languages was LISP, and the best LISP was MACLISP. These > folks were looking into problem-solving systems, and the first successful > language of this type was PLANNER. This was followed by CONNIVER. Then, > like a little mammaLisp among the dinoLisps, there arose SCHEME. This was > written, like the others in MACLISP, and showed its dinoLisp DNA in places. The original name of the language was SCHEMER, following the general theme at the lab. But filenames in ITS were limited to six characters, as explained in http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-general A similar limit (5 characters for filenames in the IBM 1130) caused the "fourth generation language" to become FORTH: http://www.colorforth.com/HOPL.html -- Jecel P.S.: the "MAC" in MACLISP is either "Multiple Access Computers" or "Machine-Aided Cognition", the two significant contributions of John McCarthy http://maclisp.info/pitmanual/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 31 15:20:29 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:20:29 +0000 Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> References: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA031624@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 10:03 PM > On 10/30/2011 10:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: [quoting me:] >>> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article >>> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that >>> would be very interesting. >> Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. > Seconded; anybody got that article as a PDF? The August, 1978, issue (always the language issue, in those days) covered Pascal. Tiny Pascal was presented in the September, October, and November issues that same year. It was republished in _The BYTE Book of Pascal_. That should help someone track it down. It doesn't seem to be on-line. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 15:27:41 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:27:41 -0500 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EAF04BD.40601@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > $20K with reserve not met? > > The guy must be asking like $50K for it. I'm not sure its worth even > $20K, but the glamour of it with Jobs recently having died will > probably pull in some whales. It's a bit of a boat anchor if it needs a Sun 4 with custom software[1] on it which is long-gone - I mean OK, it might be possible to "get it running" but surely making it *do* something is another matter entirely? It's not exactly visually appealing, so although it might be nice for a museum as an artifact for preservation, I'm not even convinced that it'd be interesting as part of a display piece. "What's unique about this computer is the tomb stone design and matching monitor paint scheme." Heh :-) [1] Although Al's point about them already having one is noted - maybe the necessary is still floating around somewhere... cheers Jules From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Oct 31 15:41:52 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:41:52 +0000 Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA031624@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA031624@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <942207870-1320093713-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1215293471-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Yeah, sorry...I missed noting the September issue. The August part was just an intro blurb without much content. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Alderson Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:20:29 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] From: Dave McGuire Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 10:03 PM > On 10/30/2011 10:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: [quoting me:] >>> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article >>> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that >>> would be very interesting. >> Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. > Seconded; anybody got that article as a PDF? The August, 1978, issue (always the language issue, in those days) covered Pascal. Tiny Pascal was presented in the September, October, and November issues that same year. It was republished in _The BYTE Book of Pascal_. That should help someone track it down. It doesn't seem to be on-line. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 31 15:43:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:43:25 -0400 Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA031624@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA031624@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4EAF086D.1010302@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2011 04:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>>> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the 3-part Tiny Pascal article >>>> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in NorthStar BASIC, that >>>> would be very interesting. > >>> Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. > >> Seconded; anybody got that article as a PDF? > > The August, 1978, issue (always the language issue, in those days) covered > Pascal. Tiny Pascal was presented in the September, October, and November > issues that same year. It was republished in _The BYTE Book of Pascal_. > > That should help someone track it down. It doesn't seem to be on-line. I've got it. It's now up with the others in: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/BYTE-TinyPascal-issues/ I've also put the August 1979 issue in there; it's chock full of LISP goodness. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 31 15:52:45 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:52:45 -0700 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EAF0A9D.5080200@bitsavers.org> On 10/31/11 12:50 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > Maybe he should cold-call Disney Walt? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 31 14:19:19 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311215.p9VCF3x8030177@ims-d12.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <1320088759.18007.YahooMailClassic@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> if you like you can place them here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tandy2000/files/ you'll have to join first though my website is in "the process" indiscreetlogic.com. I'd be happy to host them there, but as I said, it's not open to the public, yet. --- On Mon, 10/31/11, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > From: vintagecoder at aol.com > Subject: Tiny Pascal > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:15 AM > From: Cameron Kaiser > > >> Since my first exposure to Pascal was via the > 3-part Tiny Pascal article > >> in BYTE, where a subset compiler was written in > NorthStar BASIC, that > >> would be very interesting. > > > > Is this around anywhere? That sounds delightful. > > Odd that this should come up now. I sent Dave (hello, > Dave!) a link to the > Tiny C package including a paper by Dennis Ritchie last > week. > > I have these BYTE issues but nowhere to host them. If > someone wants to give > me an FTP site I can upload the 3 whole issues or I can > extract just the > Tiny Pascal stuff and try to make a PDF out of it. > > A couple of guys were hosting a ton of BYTE scans. I don't > know if the > links are still any good but if anybody wants them, let me > know and I'll > post them on this list. > > > -- > +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Vintage Coder America Online? ? ? ? > ? ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz > ? ???| > |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? | > | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, > M68K, 6502, 808X) | > | ??? ? ? ? Software & > doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? | > |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? | > | Wants:? ? ? Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA > & Solaris SPARC? ? ? ? ? ? > ???| > |? ? ? ? ? ???PL/I > X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS? ? > ? ???| > |? ? ? ? ? ???Stony > Brook Modula-2 for Solaris SPARC? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ???| > |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| > |? ? ? ? Powered by Slackware 64 Intel > and Solaris 10 SPARC? ? ? ? ? > ? ? | > |=======================================+================================| > | PGP Key 4096R? > ???0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32? > ???Encrypted email preferred? > ???| > | PGP Fingerprint???5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 > 34A0? 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32???| > +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 31 14:57:16 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AMPRO Littleboards and SCSi Message-ID: <1320091036.94555.YahooMailClassic@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> it would appear as if the earliest versions may not have had SCSI as Allison stated. I photographed the add from a BYTE magazine, can forward it to interested parties. It states in the add that the BIOS and utilities source code was available. Does anyone have thems? Does anyone have an early (pre-80186/V40) model surplus to their needs? We should have some discussion on sbc's and the like. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 31 15:54:23 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:54:23 +0000 Subject: Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <201110311722.p9VHM3Cc086720@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201110311640.p9VGeD1C030637@imr-db01.mx.aol.com> <4EAED1CE.2070208@neurotica.com> <201110311722.p9VHM3Cc086720@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:21 PM, John Foust wrote: > > I believe the source code files are available in this Yahoo group. > Other info below. ?Google found a lot of info, too. > To: UCSDPascal at yahoogroups.com I tried to write a BBS in Apple (UCSD) Pascal. It never quite worked... ...i can't believe I never lived in anything that small! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 15:56:06 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:56:06 -0400 Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <4EAF086D.1010302@neurotica.com> References: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA031624@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAF086D.1010302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?I've got it. ?It's now up with the others in: > > ?http://www.neurotica.com/misc/BYTE-TinyPascal-issues/ > > ?I've also put the August 1979 issue in there; it's chock full of LISP > goodness. That's precisely the resource I alluded to previously. I was in Jr High and "only" had a Quest Elf (an 1802 with 256 bytes of RAM and toggle switches) and a 32K PET + datasette. Not much of what was in that issue made sense to me until much later. Great stuff to read now, though. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 16:11:00 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:11:00 -0700 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EA96866.31315.128FC71@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EAEAC74.821.14E5376@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2011 at 13:57, Richard wrote: > *EVERY* package I've received with "scrap foam" blocks has been > damaged. -- " You didn't bother to read the post, did you? The "scrap foam" was mentioned as a way to support an object so that the poured polyurethane foam could migrate under it. You could just as easily have employed used toilet paper cores. The idea is to *temporarily* support something long enough for the urethane foam to set. --Chuck From benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 16:23:07 2011 From: benjamin.soelberg at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Benjamin_S=C3=B8lberg?=) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:23:07 +0100 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: <4EAE6A8F.7403.4CEC90@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAE6A8F.7403.4CEC90@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7404C6AF-B8BB-47A2-A21F-279A82EB01A6@gmail.com> Den 31/10/2011 kl. 17.29 skrev "Chuck Guzis" : > On 31 Oct 2011 at 9:47, David Riley wrote: > >> It's very distracting and irritating, and I doubt the lower frequency >> saved them more than a few cents per $30,000 car in drive electronics. > > We're approaching the time of year when my field of vision is > polluted with those damned flickering LED outdoor Christmas tree > light displays. I must have some sort of visual impairment because I > can pick out the flicker from a mile away--literally. It reminds me > of a nest of ants crawling all over the display. > > It seems that the usual method of implmentation (in the US, anyway) > is to use a string of LEDs to self-rectify the AC line current, > resulting in a pronouced 60Hz flicker. I picked up a couple of > strings of said lights last year (GE brand) and hooked them to a > fullwave bridge rectifier, with a single large (220 ?F filter cap). > The flickering ceased, but the quailty of light is rather harsh, > particularly when compared side-by-side with an incandescent string. > > l suspect it won't be long before consumer and legislative pressures > means that our Christmas seasons will be uniformly polluted by hordes > of ants dancing over our lighting displays. > > Moral: Even a 60Hz multiplex rate is too slow for some people's > vision. > > --Chuck > Chuck why so Dark :-) lighten up! Here in the EU we have 50 hz.... And i agree. I see it to, and hate it to. Regards Benjamin > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 16:40:18 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:40:18 +0000 Subject: Pixar Imaging Computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4EAF0A9D.5080200@bitsavers.org> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <4EA9B0FB.4080002@gmail.com> <4EAF0A9D.5080200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/31/11 12:50 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > >> Maybe he should cold-call Disney > > Walt? > very cold :) Dave Caroline From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 31 16:53:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EA96866.31315.128FC71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111031145056.A72446@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011, Richard wrote: > *EVERY* package I've received with "scrap foam" blocks has been damaged. *EVERY* package I've received with "peanuts" has been damaged. Maybe we should just not ship anything! I ordered a box of "peanuts" to use for shipping. It arrived damaged. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 31 16:56:50 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <4EAEAC74.821.14E5376@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EA96866.31315.128FC71@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EAEAC74.821.14E5376@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111031145553.E72446@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You didn't bother to read the post, did you? The "scrap foam" was > mentioned as a way to support an object so that the poured > polyurethane foam could migrate under it. You could just as easily > have employed used toilet paper cores. I have NEVER received a damaged package packed with used toilet paoper cores! From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 17:09:18 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:09:18 -0400 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: <20111031145553.E72446@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4EA96866.31315.128FC71@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EAEAC74.821.14E5376@cclist.sydex.com> <20111031145553.E72446@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <132129D0-332B-4C22-84D9-1296154E7149@gmail.com> On Oct 31, 2011, at 5:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 31 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> You didn't bother to read the post, did you? The "scrap foam" was >> mentioned as a way to support an object so that the poured >> polyurethane foam could migrate under it. You could just as easily >> have employed used toilet paper cores. > > I have NEVER received a damaged package packed with used toilet paoper > cores! I've never received a damaged package packed with live, angry baboons, either. The courier took some damage upon opening the package, though. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 31 16:31:30 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:31:30 -0000 Subject: John McCarthy References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 3:59 PM Subject: Re: John McCarthy > > Many thanks! Lots of food for further reading there. > > May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: > > * Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. > * Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of you." > * Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. > Interesting quote comparing Common Lisp with an anime (Howls Moving Castle). The anime is made by one of the legendary studios within the genre (Studio Ghibli). So I guess it would be a great complement to the language. My favourite Subaru is the Imprezza and any sports car has to be driven in manual gears to get the most pleasure out of driving it - just don't go from 5th gear to 1st, whilst at high speed!!! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 31 17:19:19 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:19:19 -0400 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor wanted In-Reply-To: References: <4EAE6A8F.7403.4CEC90@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > It might be an interesting project to take a few strings of these > lights and build something like a Life display. ?You would be the envy > of all of your retro-computing neighbors. > > http://www.deepdarc.com/2010/11/27/hacking-christmas-lights/ Those are awesome lights. They are not cheap, however. I've been eying them at local stores since the holiday displays went out in September - Menards has them for $60 (for 36 bulbs). Not sure about the 50-bulb version ($80?) I'm hoping for a bargain at the end of the year, but (at those prices) there are only a few sets per store, so they might sell out. I have a Spare Time Gizmos Life Clock. It has a 16x16 grid of red T 1-3/4 LEDs and looks awesome. That would take over seven sets of G-35s to implement the same size grid. At full price, that's nearly $500 including tax. :-P -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 16:43:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:43:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 30, 11 06:10:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/30/2011 01:17 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder if I can remember enough BBC BASIC to > >> implement a very crude Lisp in it. :=ACD > > > > Wouldn't be my weapon of choice, but if you really love BBC BASIC, then > > go for it. Maybe you could actually compile to BASIC source (& even > > exploit the inline 6502 assembler) :) > > BBC BASIC has an inline assembler for 6502?? Wow, that's wild. What=20 The oriignal BBC BASIC, running on a 6502-based BBC micro has a 6502 assembled built in. BBC basic also exits for the Z80 and the ARM (at least), it then has the approprtiate assembler for the processor it runs on. > hardware would I need to cobble together to run that? The easiest thing if you want to run it on real vintage hardaare (as I would) would be to find a BBC micro. They are _very_ common in the UK, and the BASIC ROM was a stnadrd feature. Of course the UK version is set up for 230V mains and UK TV video. The PSU is an Astec SMPUS normally [1] amd it's easy to convert it for 15V. If you can fidn a monitor that will synch to 15625Hz horizontal and 50Hz vertical you'll ahve no problems with the video either. The standard machine has a composite monchrome video output (you can add PAL-encoded colour by setting an internal jumper), UHF RF PAL encoded colour video (to link to a TV aerial socket) and a TTL-levbel RGB+syuc colour output (oyu onlly get 8 colours anyway, so 3 TTL signals is all you need). There was a US version of the Beeb with different MOS (machine operating system, nothing to do with the semiconductors) ROMs which set it for US TV rates, and differnet colour encoder circuitry to give you NTSC colour. I susepct that version is much harder to find. [1] Some very easrly machines had a linear PSU (transofemr, rectifier, several 7805s). They were known for burnign the varnish off tables... It is unlikely you'll get one of these. If you don;t care about using vintage hardware, there must be a BBC emulator available. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 16:51:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:51:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & In-Reply-To: <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Oct 30, 11 08:03:03 pm Message-ID: > It runs on the BBC Microcomputer, and the BBC BASIC ROM is the usual=20 > standard 16KB language ROM. You can probably get a BBC Micro on ebay; I=20 > have no idea how many, if any, were sold in North America. The BBC Micro=20 > Model B with 5.25" diskette drive (Watford DFS) was the first machine I=20 > had at home, and I used it for hours every day (writing assembler when I=20 > wasn't writing BASIC). I regard the BBC micro as one of the best designed 8-bit micros ever. My only wish is that they should have used a 6809 processor ;-) I have (and use) an Acorn Cambridge Workstation. That's a BBC B+ board (this has 64K RAM, it overlays the video memory giving more space for BASIC programs, etc) built inot a monitor-style case. The monitor is a Micorvitec colour unit, there's also a 5.25" 80 cylinder floppy drive, a 20MByute hard disk and a 32016-based second processor board with 4M RAM. And yes, it runs BBC BASIC. > > The machines were networkable and we had a laboratory of about 20 of=20 > them, hooked up to a LAN file server with a 5(?)MB hard disk,=20 > hierarchical file system, and user directory/permissions system. This=20 > was around 1982-1986. I had a lot of fun playing with (abusing) the=20 > network primitives, such as sniffing the administrator password... For a=20 > long time I was never not in possession of that password. :) One of the 'computing' teachers at school tried to make it against the rules of have a Motorola 6854 [1] data sheet. Since I'd bought the complete data boo kfor my homebrewing projects, I was not going to abide my that. I refused to rip the pages out! [1] No I don't mean 6845, which is the CRT controlelr (and is used in the Beeb). The 6854 ias a synchronosu serial interface chip ans used used for the Econet. > I still have the Econet programmer's reference - handed to me, a=20 So do I.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 16:27:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:27:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EAC281F.1050600@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 29, 11 06:21:51 pm Message-ID: > > > > Does the diellectric strength increase back to its original value on > > cooling again? If so, then this is not really a problem if you happen to > > heat a CRT part (pin, bit of the envelope) with a soldering iron while > > working on the device. > That would seem likely since the glass was once melted in order to make > the CRT. Whether continuous arcing damages the glass permanently or not I think an arc can actually puncture the glass, in which case the vacuum will leak out. Not a Good Thing > is another question. I would guess that the heat in itself does nothing > irreversible, but arcing does. > I found this in a text about types of glass and manufacturing procedures > for CRTs. It did not mention whether the damage was reversible or not. > Your observation about connecting a glass rod across the mains and > heating it certainly supports their warnings about reduced dielectric > strength. Incidentally, some other materials that you would think are good insulators show the same behaviour. Things like calcium oxide, zirconium oxide, and some other rare earth oxieds. Look up 'Nernst Lamp' (or 'Nernst Glower'). Quite an intersting devices that was seriously proposed as an alternative for the metal filament in an intert atmospehrre (or a vacuum) bulb at one point. It wasn't much good for that, bnt it was used as an IR light source doe a time, the point being that the glowing oxide rod could run in air, you didn't need a surrounding glass envelope that could absorb some of the IR. > On the other hand, I would suppose that severe localised heating could > cause the glass to crack due to local expansion creating excessive > stresses, so I would still be very careful with the soldering iron. I think anyone who soldered aroudn a CRT with the power on deserves all they get (and a damaged CRT is likely to be the elast of their problems). But of course a cracked seel will damage the CRT even when the power is off, so it's something to be aware of. I would never solder directly to the pins of a CRT [1], or solder to the socket contcats without removing it from the CRT. If the CRT has side pins, e.g. for deflection plates, the same applies. [1] There is one eception to this. If the CRT has a separate base moulding -- that is int's not na 'all glass' base with the pins sealed into the glasss envelope,. it can be worth trying to resolder the pins if you have what appears to be an open-circuit electrode connection. But use a hot ireon (so it soldered qucikly) and take care. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 16:35:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:35:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Standards?? (Was: Learning Lisp/Scheme - Re: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <20111030130225.T22272@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 30, 11 01:19:56 pm Message-ID: > there are many functions whose definitions are subject to interpretation. > For example, does puts() add a newline ('\n')? Many implementation My second edition K&R says (page 247) : ' int puts(const car *s) puts writes the string s and a newline to stdout. It returns EOF if an error occurs, non-negative otherwise' Seems pretty clear to me. It adds a newline. > choices, rather than be codified or standardized are left open, and are > now often referred to as "undefined". Not "undefined" as in x/0 , but > "undefined" as in what does n=2; A[n++] = n++; do? I don't want to try it. It might make demons come out of my nose (particularly on Halloween). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 17:13:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:13:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Oct 31, 11 09:42:14 am Message-ID: > > On Oct 31, 2011, at 5:02 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > > > Neat! I've got an Acorn hidden in the loft, and a load of games on > > tape... they should really be archived some how, but I don't know how > > to do it... > > If the tape encoding system is anything like the really simple FM the IIRC it uses the CUTS tones, genrated and decoded in hardware (a custom chip called the 'Serial ULA' linked to a 6850). It should be very easy to archive the tapes. And to answer another quesiton in the thread. the RISC OS versionm of BBC BASIC, as used on the Archimedes machines, etc, does have an ARM assembler built in. Or at least the versions I've used do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 17:17:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:17:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor In-Reply-To: from "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Benjamin_S=F8lberg?=" at Oct 31, 11 10:51:38 am Message-ID: > Joke-a-side.. If multiplexing really did save power then just pulsing a > single led would do the same.. Multiplexing of LED displays was intially done, I think, to save connections. If you think of an 8-digit calculator display (with 7 segmets + a decimal point per digit), that's 64 LEDs, so 64 conenctions to the display (+ a common return). If you multiplex it, that's 16 connetions, 8 for the segments (one for the top, one ofthe top right vertical, etc) and 8 to select the digits (one per dgiti). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 17:25:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:25:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: <4EAEFE28.9090606@vaxen.net> from "Doc Shipley" at Oct 31, 11 02:59:36 pm Message-ID: > I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from > China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper, > turned out to be very explicit porn. > > I wasn't as offended as probably should have been. I suspect I'd have been rather more offended my the Chinese tools... -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 31 17:39:46 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:39:46 -0000 Subject: Performance-oriented development in the commercial computing world In-Reply-To: <4EAE86B3.4050707@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au] wrote: > I don't think much commercial software weighs in at > 1,000,000,000 lines > - yet. But you'd need an efficient build system if it did. 100M (I just checked) but that's everything (comments, generated code, blank lines). I've no idea at what rate it's been growing so I've no idea when it will reach one billion lines. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 31 17:38:51 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:38:51 -0500 Subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 17:19 -0500 10/31/11, Fred (who else?) wrote: >I have NEVER received a damaged package packed with used toilet paoper >cores! Fred, you are one of the things that make this list worth reading. Thank you! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 31 18:32:04 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:32:04 +0000 Subject: LISP [was RE: John McCarthy] In-Reply-To: <4EAF086D.1010302@neurotica.com> References: <201110310231.p9V2Vb0I014400@floodgap.com> <4EAE2BEB.3010807@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA031624@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAF086D.1010302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA031749@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 1:43 PM > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/BYTE-TinyPascal-issues/ > I've also put the August 1979 issue in there; it's chock full of LISP > goodness. The April, 1979, issue also has some LISP content. (I ordered the back issue from BYTE several years later.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 31 19:07:38 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: <4EAEFE28.9090606@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Oct 31, 11 02:59:36 pm" Message-ID: <201111010007.pA107c40012768@floodgap.com> > > But, always select carefully to make sure that you find newspapers whose > > content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to > > the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland > > Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always > > welcom in certain states. > > I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from > China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper, > turned out to be very explicit porn. > > I wasn't as offended as probably should have been. So the packing material had tools as well? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "From Russia With Love" ---------------------------- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 31 19:57:21 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 00:57:21 +0000 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4EAF43F1.6040008@dunnington.plus.com> David Riley wrote: > On Oct 31, 2011, at 5:02 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > >> Neat! I've got an Acorn hidden in the loft, and a load of games on >> tape... they should really be archived some how, but I don't know how >> to do it... > > If the tape encoding system is anything like the really simple FM the Apple II used, a raw PCM file should do fine (and even MP3 might be acceptable). If you wanted to get fancy, you could write an equivalent program to ADT for the Apple II to transcode the audio to bits. It's slightly-modified CUTS format, so yes, easy. And MP3s work fine. 1200 baud, 0 = 1 cycle of 1200Hz, 1 = 2 cycles of 2400Hz. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Oct 31 21:43:01 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 19:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do you have a 'super collection"? Nat Geo wants to know. Message-ID: <1320115381.58438.YahooMailClassic@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I received an email from a National Geographic documentary series and they're looking for people who have large, amazing collections. If you or someone you know has an impressive collection of old computers, or anything else, please contact contact: "Julie Haire" From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 31 22:00:04 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hp32sii repair Message-ID: Does anyone here know anything helpful regarding opening an hp32sii calculator to fix mushyness? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 22:11:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:11:51 -0700 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor In-Reply-To: References: from "Benjamin Sølberg" at Oct 31, 11 10:51:38 am, Message-ID: <4EAF0107.12443.298B028@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2011 at 22:17, Tony Duell wrote: > Multiplexing of LED displays was intially done, I think, to save > connections. If you think of an 8-digit calculator display (with 7 > segmets + a decimal point per digit), that's 64 LEDs, so 64 > conenctions to the display (+ a common return). If you multiplex it, > that's 16 connetions, 8 for the segments (one for the top, one ofthe > top right vertical, etc) and 8 to select the digits (one per dgiti). It still is the case. With microcontrollers, we also have Charliplexing, further reducing the number of connections. --Chuck From doug at doughq.com Mon Oct 31 19:00:51 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:00:51 +1100 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: References: <4EAEFE28.9090606@vaxen.net> Message-ID: Which seller was this ;-) On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from > > China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper, > > turned out to be very explicit porn. > > > > I wasn't as offended as probably should have been. > > I suspect I'd have been rather more offended my the Chinese tools... > > -tony > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities