From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 1 01:59:27 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:59:27 -0700 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Oct 31, at 3:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Joke-a-side.. If multiplexing really did save power then just >> pulsing a >> single led would do the same.. > > Multiplexing of LED displays was intially done, I think, to save > connections. If you think of an 8-digit calculator display (with 7 > segmets + a decimal point per digit), that's 64 LEDs, so 64 > conenctions > to the display (+ a common return). If you multiplex it, that's 16 > connetions, 8 for the segments (one for the top, one ofthe top right > vertical, etc) and 8 to select the digits (one per dgiti). I'd say multiplexing generally was initially done to save on logic and hardware. One 1-of-10 decoder instead of 12 or 16 of them, and 10 +12 drivers instead of 120, for example. There were a few early calculators that did static registers with per- digit decoders and drivers, but they quickly went to multiplexing, in the days of discrete and SSI, long before LSI and pin-count issues. And, of course, the multiplexing fit naturally with serial architecture. By the time LSI and LEDs came into play, the architectural 'standard' had already been set, reduced connection count was an additional benefit. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 1 02:21:36 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 03:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111010721.DAA11546@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There were a few early calculators that did static registers with > per-digit decoders and drivers, but they quickly went to > multiplexing, in the days of discrete and SSI, long before LSI and > pin-count issues. Yeah...as a kid, I had a calculator that used ten-electrode neon tubes ("Nixies") for display, and, while I don't remember all that much of the driving circuitry, I think it multiplexed. (It was somewhat broken, and - hardly surprisingly in view of my skill and knowledge at the time - the more I tried to fix it up, the brokener it got. I wonder what became of it.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 08:06:45 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 09:06:45 -0400 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit microprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78422E16-F094-45C1-95BA-8073082EB01F@gmail.com> On Oct 31, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Joke-a-side.. If multiplexing really did save power then just pulsing a >> single led would do the same.. > > Multiplexing of LED displays was intially done, I think, to save > connections. If you think of an 8-digit calculator display (with 7 > segmets + a decimal point per digit), that's 64 LEDs, so 64 conenctions > to the display (+ a common return). If you multiplex it, that's 16 > connetions, 8 for the segments (one for the top, one ofthe top right > vertical, etc) and 8 to select the digits (one per dgiti). Most of the time, these days, that's all it's used for; I've seen some app notes where, if you're really clever, you can drive 4 LEDs per pin (plus 1 extra) without any additional external electronics. Very nice for either pin-constrained micros or large sets of LEDs. For example, most cheap clock radios have one 4-pin DIP running the whole show (and it's pretty much been the same chip since the '80s). It uses the 60/50 Hz zero crossing on the AC line to keep time, which gives it very precise time (Laurent Hammond, inventor of the AC synchronized motor which ran both home clocks and the Hammond organ, took advantage of this and now the power companies must make sure that the power cycles average 60/50 Hz over the day to a few ppm, if anecdotes inform correctly) and also gives it a handy time base for multiplexing half the LED segments. Normally, as mentioned earlier, a 60 Hz refresh frequency might cause a headache, but I imagine there are holdup caps on the LEDs so they're not quite so obnoxious. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 08:10:42 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 08:10:42 -0500 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4EAFEFD2.5030908@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Toby Thain wrote: >> On 30/10/11 6:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> BBC BASIC has an inline assembler for 6502?? Wow, that's wild. What >>> hardware would I need to cobble together to run that? >> >> It's a good little assembler. Because of the integration with BASIC, >> you get nice macro-ish facilities as well. >> >> It runs on the BBC Microcomputer, and the BBC BASIC ROM is the usual >> standard 16KB language ROM. You can probably get a BBC Micro on ebay; >> I have no idea how many, if any, were sold in North America. > > Some thousands sold in the US (with modifications for NTSC and 60Hz, and > changes to some spelling (COLOR for COLOUR, etc). I think it may have > had a modified (for 110V) PSU, but I remember a story about that. Hmm, yes I don't recall if the stock PSU was guaranteed to work on 110V automagically, and so the US models got exactly the same ones as the UK. IIRC the US models had a lot of extra shielding in the case - although I heard once that it wasn't strictly necessary to meet US regs, but just a precautionary measure. cheers Jules From doc at vaxen.net Tue Nov 1 10:55:27 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 10:55:27 -0500 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EAC281F.1050600@otter.se> References: <4EAC281F.1050600@otter.se> Message-ID: <4EB0166F.2050807@vaxen.net> Jonas Otter wrote: > >> Does the diellectric strength increase back to its original value on >> cooling again? If so, then this is not really a problem if you happen to >> heat a CRT part (pin, bit of the envelope) with a soldering iron while >> working on the device. > That would seem likely since the glass was once melted in order to make > the CRT. Whether continuous arcing damages the glass permanently or not > is another question. I would guess that the heat in itself does nothing > irreversible, but arcing does. > I found this in a text about types of glass and manufacturing procedures > for CRTs. It did not mention whether the damage was reversible or not. > Your observation about connecting a glass rod across the mains and > heating it certainly supports their warnings about reduced dielectric > strength. > On the other hand, I would suppose that severe localised heating could > cause the glass to crack due to local expansion creating excessive > stresses, so I would still be very careful with the soldering iron. Heat-worked glass - cast or blown - is a lot like worked carbon or stainless steel. There will be localized stresses after working and if it's not tempered can crack or shatter spontaneously, with no more external stimulus than a few degrees' temperature change. Cast glass is more homogeneous than worked or blown, but it still needs tempering. I'd be very surprised if the casting or blowing spec for a CRT tube didn't include detailed specifications for the cool-down rate. Doc Shipley From james at machineroom.info Tue Nov 1 03:04:42 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 08:04:42 +0000 Subject: Do you have a 'super collection"? Nat Geo wants to know. In-Reply-To: <1320115381.58438.YahooMailClassic@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1320115381.58438.YahooMailClassic@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EAFA81A.9080605@machineroom.info> On 01/11/2011 02:43, steven stengel wrote: > I received an email from a National Geographic documentary series and they're looking for people who have large, amazing collections. > > If you or someone you know has an impressive collection of old computers, or > anything else, please contact contact: > > "Julie Haire" > > > Is that interest world wide, or limited to a country? From system11 at bigpond.com Tue Nov 1 04:58:08 2011 From: system11 at bigpond.com (JENNY & ROYCE SMITH) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:58:08 +1100 Subject: Do you have a 'super collection"? Nat Geo wants to know. In-Reply-To: <1320115381.58438.YahooMailClassic@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B8D3A74460A48C89A25ECE157775A50@roycemain> Julie Haire Contact a John Wolff in Melbourne ajw at internode.on.net see his web site www.vicnet.net.au/~wolff. He has a house, a garage and a shed full of hundreds of calculators, adding machines and comptometers. He also collects Mechanical musical instruments. There is also somewhere in Melbourne a guy (refer to ABC Collectors show) with over 600 typewriters. I myself only have about 100, a mixture of calculators, typewriters, (mostly at least 100 years old) adding and accounting machines, and slide rules. Not worthy of Nat.Geo. There is also a computer museum collection (many of them in working order)in Sydney run by Max Burnet www.acms.org.au Good Hunting Royce Smith system11 at bigpond.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 1:43 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Do you have a 'super collection"? Nat Geo wants to know. I received an email from a National Geographic documentary series and they're looking for people who have large, amazing collections. If you or someone you know has an impressive collection of old computers, or anything else, please contact contact: "Julie Haire" From elazzerini at interfree.it Tue Nov 1 10:16:44 2011 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:16:44 +0100 Subject: Kaypro-II : display video to repair Message-ID: <00ce01cc98a9$44a8cd30$cdfa6790$@it> Hi at all, I bought an old computer with the wishing to make it alive. It?s name is Kaypro-II and it has a 9" green phosphor monochrome monitor composed of a LR30477 E39164 TOSHIBA CRT and a printed circuit steering Toshiba TLC-134-TV-0. I tried to supply it with 12Vdc and I noticed that the cathode of the CRT is lit, while the screen does not turns on and no shows light even using the knob back adjustment for the light intensity. Wishing to do TV repair technician I need the wiring diagram of the circuit electric drive Toshiba TLC-134-T-V-0. Is there someone who has it? I seem to hear at the power on from the CRT an high-frequency hiss and i tryed to see if come out a shoke from the flayback transformer but nothing come out. Other useful info: 1) on the PCB SN 23989586 K10MRDO Toshiba 23879862 TLC-134-T-V-O There is a chip NEC ?PC1031H2 Flyback transformer with those info: TFB1026 2L24DS 2) on the back of the CRT CRT Monitor LR30477 E39164 E2728531 2A13 3D Hu Here some pictures: http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2026.html http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2018.html http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kaypro-II/Foto2019.html http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2768.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2771.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2772.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2773.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2774.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2775.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2776.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2777.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2778.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2780.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2781.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2782.jpg http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Kayvideo/Foto2783.jpg and http://www.flickr.com/photos/67772736 at N07/sets/72157627837488485/ . Thanks in advance for any support. Enrico From pinball at telus.net Tue Nov 1 11:51:03 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 09:51:03 -0700 Subject: hp32sii repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB02377.1020303@telus.net> David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here know anything helpful regarding opening an hp32sii > calculator to fix mushyness? > http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv007.cgi?read=15885 John :-#)# From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 12:34:15 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:34:15 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <4EAC281F.1050600@otter.se> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2011 3:42 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > I think an arc can actually puncture the glass, in which case the vacuum > will leak out. Not a Good Thing > > -tony As someone who likes to be pedantic and complain about improper use of terminology, can you explain how a vacuum leaks out? From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Nov 1 12:56:19 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:56:19 -0400 Subject: Do you have a 'super collection"? Nat Geo wants to know. Message-ID: One of the coolest computer pictures ever is from the October 1982 National Geographic. They have a picture of the proprietor of Boston's American Used Computer (one of the first well known used DEC dealers) in between parallel lineup of H960's filled with good DEC stuff. I got to visit that place and ELI back in the 80's on a few occasions. It is a true joy to see the picture. http://www.nixiebunny.com/sonny.jpg Also they had a stunning picture of the Apple II assembly line circa must have been 1981 or 1982. Various brands of TV's at each workstation, floppy drives, HP frequency counters on most benches. I think this is the whole article on the web: http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/04/02/the-chip/?Qwd=./NationalGeographic/10-1982/chip&Qif=chip_17.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=XL#qdig From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 13:20:02 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:20:02 -0400 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <4EAC281F.1050600@otter.se> Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Oct 31, 2011 3:42 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> I think an arc can actually puncture the glass, in which case the vacuum >> will leak out. Not a Good Thing >> >> -tony > > As someone who likes to be pedantic and complain about improper use of > terminology, can you explain how a vacuum leaks out? The same way the cold creeps in? In this house, we respect the laws of thermodynamics! From technobug at comcast.net Tue Nov 1 13:21:57 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:21:57 -0700 Subject: Line Frequency Time Standard was Re: Multiplexing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A4E28F6-8F84-43E0-9A59-B93054A737E9@comcast.net> On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 09:06:45 -0400, David Riley wrote: > For example, most cheap clock radios have one 4-pin DIP running the whole show (and it's pretty much been the same chip since the '80s). It uses the 60/50 Hz zero crossing on the AC line to keep time, which gives it very precise time (Laurent Hammond, inventor of the AC synchronized motor which ran both home clocks and the Hammond organ, took advantage of this and now the power companies must make sure that the power cycles average 60/50 Hz over the day to a few ppm, if anecdotes inform correctly) and also gives it a handy time base for multiplexing half the LED segments. Normally, as mentioned earlier, a 60 Hz refresh frequency might cause a headache, but I imagine there are holdup caps on the LEDs so they're not quite so obnoxious. > > - Dave The ability to depend on time error correction on the US power grid might be going away. There was supposed to be a test starting this last summer whereby the grid was not going to be corrected. However, at the moment, it's back in committee. See: for a story written prior to the scheduled test and the North American Electric Reliability Corporation (the folks who set the standards) blurb on the proposed test. Perhaps it time to start looking for some of the early GPS network time servers that started showing up in the '80s (i.e. classic) to attach to those PDP's to ensure that one is not late for lunch... -> CRC From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 1 14:17:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 12:17:45 -0700 Subject: Line Frequency Time Standard was Re: Multiplexing In-Reply-To: <9A4E28F6-8F84-43E0-9A59-B93054A737E9@comcast.net> References: , <9A4E28F6-8F84-43E0-9A59-B93054A737E9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4EAFE369.14982.B2E1E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2011 at 11:21, CRC wrote: > On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 09:06:45 -0400, David Riley > wrote: > > > For example, most cheap clock radios have one 4-pin DIP running the > > whole show (and it's pretty much been the same chip since the '80s). Most such clocks in my experience have better long-term stability than most consumer-level crystal-controlled clocks. Even AC- powered synchronous-motor appliance clocks fare better than those with "Quartz" on the face. It would be a shame for this reliability to go away. --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Tue Nov 1 14:23:36 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:23:36 -0500 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: <201111010007.pA107c40012768@floodgap.com> References: <201111010007.pA107c40012768@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB04738.2070503@vaxen.net> On 10/31/11 7:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> But, always select carefully to make sure that you find newspapers whose >>> content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to >>> the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland >>> Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always >>> welcom in certain states. >> >> I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from >> China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper, >> turned out to be very explicit porn. >> >> I wasn't as offended as probably should have been. > > So the packing material had tools as well? OH!!! He WENT there, yes he did! :) (and yes, it did) Doc From doc at vaxen.net Tue Nov 1 14:29:42 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:29:42 -0500 Subject: Proper packing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB048A6.1090306@vaxen.net> On 10/31/11 5:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from >> China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper, >> turned out to be very explicit porn. >> >> I wasn't as offended as probably should have been. > > I suspect I'd have been rather more offended my the Chinese tools... I admit I had very low hope for the tools - diamond grinder barrels for a .5" x .5" Foredom sander drum - but at the price point I thought I'd try 'em. These, but I think I paid $8 USD shipped for 12: http://www.ebay.com/itm/350502972455 They suck. They're neither exactly round nor balanced and the nickel-alloy base gets hot and cooks the expandable rubber drum. However, with a bit of water-cooling and an old hand-piece (so I don't hammer the bearings out of my good one) they move a lot of material mighty fast. I've just got the last of the parts needed to assemble my tabletop lathe, and a suitable heatproof mandrel for those drums is high on the project list. Doc From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 14:36:35 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:36:35 -0400 Subject: Line Frequency Time Standard was Re: Multiplexing In-Reply-To: <4EAFE369.14982.B2E1E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <9A4E28F6-8F84-43E0-9A59-B93054A737E9@comcast.net> <4EAFE369.14982.B2E1E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 09:06:45 -0400, David Riley wrote: > For example, most cheap clock radios have one 4-pin DIP running the > whole show (and it's pretty much been the same chip since the '80s). I should correct this: I meant 40-pin, not 4-pin (that, indeed, would be remarkable!). - Dave From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Nov 1 14:50:01 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 19:50:01 +0000 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31/10/2011 21:51, "Tony Duell" wrote: > I have (and use) an Acorn Cambridge Workstation. That's a BBC B+ board > (this has 64K RAM, it overlays the video memory giving more space for > BASIC programs, etc) built inot a monitor-style case. The monitor is a > Micorvitec colour unit, there's also a 5.25" 80 cylinder floppy drive, a > 20MByute hard disk and a 32016-based second processor board with 4M RAM. > And yes, it runs BBC BASIC. > One of these, in fact, currently a resident of my spare bedroom! http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/acw/index.php -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Nov 1 14:49:22 2011 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zenith CruisePad? Message-ID: Has anyone ever heard of or even seen a Zenith CruisePad? I never even heard of it until an attorney contacted me looking for one. If anyone has one, or just the manual would be good, please contact me. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 15:31:18 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:31:18 +0000 Subject: Line Frequency Time Standard was Re: Multiplexing In-Reply-To: References: <9A4E28F6-8F84-43E0-9A59-B93054A737E9@comcast.net> <4EAFE369.14982.B2E1E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In the UK Im not aware of any change to the 50hz stability yet, as recently as 2002 we got an order for a "work alike" clock for shop display and was given a clock module to copy, the clock chip being obsolete I just used a PIC and did nearly all the work in software instead. I have seen them in the wild still working in corner shops, long live mains stability. We were a clock company so were repairing old mains motored mechanical clocks to0, they had kept running from the 1950's and 60's. The method just works. I did visit a power stations and the timing was mentioned. It is enshrined in law and a public graph of our stability http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Realtime/Frequency/Freq60.htm Dave Caroline From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 1 15:05:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:05:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp32sii repair In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Oct 31, 11 08:00:04 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone here know anything helpful regarding opening an hp32sii > calculator to fix mushyness? Yes, don't :-)... You may think that;'s rather odd coming from me. but these machines are painful to work on, and not as well made as I would like. OK, if, like me, you're not easily put off, the first problem is getting inside. These things are heat-staked together of course. THe t parts of the case are staked together, the keyboard membrane layers and a metal backing plate (which also carries the display glass) are staked to the top case. Remvoe the batery cover and the button cells. You can see 4 stakes inside the battery compartment, Drill out the tops of those using a 3,5mm or so twist drill. THe other 4 stakes are at the front edge on the top (keyboard) side, under the metal trim. Soem peole 'rip' the machine apart at this point, my worry is that this is likely to damage the stakes holfing the keyboard together. Others (including me) carefully take off the metal keyboard bezel (don't crease it, it's impossible to flatten it again) and then drill the tops off those stakes too, With the case open, undo the 6 twist tabs on the PCB and thake the latter off. You cna now see the back of the keybaord with numerous heat stakes. Often, some of these are broken, which may be the fault you are looking for. You might be able ot melt soem more plastic rod onto the remains of the old stakes with a soldering iron to improve matters. I do not recoemnd cutting off these stakes and taking the keyboard apart. You will not get it stay together again. I took apart a scrap one to see how it was made and to trace out the keyboard matrix (this was a 42S IIRC, with a very dead CPU), that's the only time I'd contemlate doing this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 1 15:06:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:06:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: <4EAF0107.12443.298B028@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 31, 11 08:11:51 pm Message-ID: > It still is the case. With microcontrollers, we also have > Charliplexing, further reducing the number of connections. Is that when every pin can act as either an 'anode' or 'cathode' driver, so you can ewffectively have an LED between any pin and any other pin? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 1 15:22:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:22:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 31, 11 11:59:27 pm Message-ID: > > I'd say multiplexing generally was initially done to save on logic > and hardware. One 1-of-10 decoder instead of 12 or 16 of them, and 10 > +12 drivers instead of 120, for example. Be warned that for some displays the 'electrical' matrix may not correspond to the physical one. For example, the LED display in the HP9830 calcualtor is a 7 row by 160 column dot matrix unit (32 chracters, 5 dot columns per character). It's made from 8 LED modules wahc 7 rows by 20 columns. Electriclaly, it's wired as a 28*40 matrix. This needs a total of 68 drives (28 of one flavour, 40 of the other).any other electrical arrangement (7*160, 14*80 or 56*20) needs more driver stages. > > There were a few early calculators that did static registers with per- > digit decoders and drivers, but they quickly went to multiplexing, in > the days of discrete and SSI, long before LSI and pin-count issues. > And, of course, the multiplexing fit naturally with serial architecture. I think most caclautors calcuated on digit at a time, so there was a natural way to shift along the digits as part of the arithmetic operation. Adding a multiplexed display to that was quire simple. Converserly, many of the cheap LED digital clocks used a 4-digit non-multiplexed dispaly .With these, multiplexing the outputs of the counters did mean extra logic, and you had enough pins on a 40 pin package to directly drive all the display segments. And since such clocks were mains-powered (the timing reference came from the mains too), there was little incentive to save power. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 1 15:29:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:29:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: <78422E16-F094-45C1-95BA-8073082EB01F@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 1, 11 09:06:45 am Message-ID: > For example, most cheap clock radios have one 4-pin DIP running the Iasusme htat's '40 pin DIP'. The only 4 pin DIPS I've seen have been bridge rectifiers. > whole show (and it's pretty much been the same chip since the '80s). It > uses the 60/50 Hz zero crossing on the AC line to keep time, which gives > it very precise time (Laurent Hammond, inventor of the AC synchronized > motor which ran both home clocks and the Hammond organ, took advantage > of this and now the power companies must make sure that the power cycles > average 60/50 Hz over the day to a few ppm, if anecdotes inform > correctly) and also gives it a handy time base for multiplexing half > the LED segments. Normally, as mentioned earlier, a 60 Hz refresh > frequency might cause a headache, but I imagine there are holdup caps on > the LEDs so they're not quite so obnoxious. An wful lot of those clocks are not multiplexed at all. Think about it. THey are genuine 7 segment displays (no decimal points0, and the most significant digit is either blank, 1 or 2 (or maybe blank and 1 if you have 12 hour clock). There's easily enough pins on a 40 pin chip to direclty drive those, along with a few other outputs (flashing colon, alarm, turn-on-radio, etc) and inputs (setting swtiches, etc). Many 3.5 digit meters (DMMs, etc) are direct drive too. Look at the 7106/7107 and friends. Again a 40 pin DIL pacakge with plenty of pins for direct drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 1 15:32:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:32:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & In-Reply-To: <4EAFEFD2.5030908@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 1, 11 08:10:42 am Message-ID: > Hmm, yes I don't recall if the stock PSU was guaranteed to work on 110V > automagically, and so the US models got exactly the same ones as the UK. I seem to remember an obvious 'fit for 115V' link on the Beeb PSU board which did the stnadard trick of convertign the mains input stage from a bridge rectifeir to a voltage doubler. I asusme that was fitted inthe US Beebs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 1 15:37:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:37:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kaypro-II : display video to repair In-Reply-To: <00ce01cc98a9$44a8cd30$cdfa6790$@it> from "Enrico Lazzerini" at Nov 1, 11 04:16:44 pm Message-ID: > > Hi at all,=20 > > I bought an old computer with the wishing to make it alive. It=92s name = > is > Kaypro-II and it has a 9" green phosphor monochrome monitor composed of = > a > LR30477 E39164 TOSHIBA CRT and a printed circuit steering Toshiba > TLC-134-TV-0. I tried to supply it with 12Vdc and I noticed that the = > cathode > of the CRT is lit, while the screen does not turns on and no shows light > even using the knob back adjustment for the light intensity. Wishing to = > do > TV repair technician I need the wiring diagram of the circuit electric = > drive > Toshiba TLC-134-T-V-0. Is there someone who has it? Even without the scematic you van prbobably do some tests. If the input conencotr is the normal 10 pin edge connector, you cna check to see if there are sync and vbideo signals on the right pins with a 'scope. If there are, then the fault is in the monitor, if not, then the digital part of the machine needs repairing. Also check the CRT voltages. Monochrome CRTs are pretty generic, and it's likely this one has a 7 pin base with a 12V heater. I think I posted the pinout and expected voltages a couple of weeks ago. > > I seem to hear at the power on from the CRT an high-frequency hiss and i > tryed to see if come out a shoke from the flayback transformer but = > nothing > come out. > > Other useful info: > > 1) on the PCB > > SN 23989586 K10MRDO > > Toshiba 23879862 TLC-134-T-V-O > > There is a chip NEC =B5PC1031H2 IIRC that's a single-in-line package (SIL) with a heatsink tab on top. 10 pins or so. It's a verticla defleciton and output stage IC. Getting a data sheet is non-trivial (the major on-line data sheet sites don't seem to have it), but there's a close equivalent that you can get data on. I cna look it up if oyu need it. But if th verticla side has failed, then you'd expect to get a horizontal line o nthe screen. The fact that the screen it totally blank suggests the fault is elsewhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 1 15:39:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:39:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: from "Glen Slick" at Nov 1, 11 10:34:15 am Message-ID: > As someone who likes to be pedantic and complain about improper use of > terminology, can you explain how a vacuum leaks out? Of course. The vacuum leaks out and is replaced by air ;-) In the same way, light bulbs are actually dark suckers, right :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 1 15:53:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:53:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vacuum 'leaking out' Message-ID: You all know what I meant by the vacuum 'leaking out' of a CRT, right :-). Perhaps this analogy will help to explain why I said it. We all know that the mobile charge carriers in most materials are electrons with a -ve charge. Now, suppose I take a metal sphere and charge it positively (as is done in electrostatic experiments). In time it will discharge, it's common to say 'the charge -- the positive charge -- leaked away'. But what actually happens, of course is that when I charged the object I removed some of the electrons from it, leaving it with a net positive charge, And the leackage that allowed it to discharge actually allowed electrons to flow onto the metal sphere. So in this case, the 'charging' means I removed some electrons from it, the 'leakage' allows them to return. When a CRT is evacuated, the gas molecules are removed from the inside, leaving a vacuum. When it leaks, air goes back in, returnign it to the natural state. By analogy with the electorstatic experiment, it doesn't seem so crazy to say the 'vacuum leaked out'. -tony From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 1 16:10:26 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:10:26 -0700 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <4EAC281F.1050600@otter.se> Message-ID: From: "Glen Slick": Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:34 AM > On Oct 31, 2011 3:42 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> I think an arc can actually puncture the glass, in which case the vacuum >> will leak out. Not a Good Thing > > As someone who likes to be pedantic and complain about improper use of > terminology, can you explain how a vacuum leaks out? Isn't it just like the current flowing from positive to negative? Vince From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:15:48 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > How did we make it better? > > - Now also writes images back to disk. Writing IPF files creates pristine > clones of preserved disks long gone before. It also writes data other > controllers refuse to write. > - Now supports one-pass dumping of "flippy" disks with a modified 5.25" > drive. The problem dumping these is explained here: > http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3#p1991 > , comprehensive video > tutorial explains how drives can be modified: > http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=253#p2021 > > - We released the full source code to our own format, IPF, introduced over > ten years ago, that stores original data as found on original disks, e.g. > custom formats and copy protection. > Can we do better? Please let us know! I'm pleased to see the project opening up (release of library source, etc). I was a bit uncomfortable with what I perceived to be a proprietary approach earlier on. What would really be the clincher for me is the ability to take a sector image of the various machines, e.g. an Apple ProDOS or DOS 3.3 "*.po" image and write it to a diskette. I get the impression that it currently has the ability to read flux transitions and extract such sector images, but nothing mentions the capability of re-creating a track image and writing them out to media. I have an interest in archiving, but I'm also an avid tinkerer with old hardware and often need to generate "real" diskettes from a sector image. Some of the machines I would need to do this for: Northstar hard-sector Amiga 5.25 and 3.5 C64 (GCR) Apple 2 and 3 (GCR) Intel MDS system (M2FM) ... etc. I have technical means for all of the above now, but they are inconvenient and/or require dragging out and setting up something particular to that one operation. "One stop" shopping would be great. If the unit is capable of doing this, please advise? Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 1 16:33:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:33:31 -0700 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: References: <4EAF0107.12443.298B028@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 31, 11 08:11:51 pm, Message-ID: <4EB0033B.11823.12F2F1C@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2011 at 20:06, Tony Duell wrote: > > It still is the case. With microcontrollers, we also have > > Charliplexing, further reducing the number of connections. > > Is that when every pin can act as either an 'anode' or 'cathode' > driver, so you can ewffectively have an LED between any pin and any > other pin? Charlie Allen of Maxim. Pretty nuch the right idea, but most variations also make use of the ability to float a line (high impedance) as well. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 1 16:44:31 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vacuum 'leaking out' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111101144353.U4247@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Nov 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > When a CRT is evacuated, the gas molecules are removed from the inside, > leaving a vacuum. When it leaks, air goes back in, returnign it to the > natural state. By analogy with the electorstatic experiment, it doesn't > seem so crazy to say the 'vacuum leaked out'. Not quite the same as when the dark leaks out of your darkroom. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Nov 1 16:53:22 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:53:22 +0000 Subject: Vacuum 'leaking out' In-Reply-To: <20111101144353.U4247@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111101144353.U4247@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Not quite the same as when the dark leaks out of your darkroom. I've had the smoke leak out of things. That was usually bad. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 1 17:36:58 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vacuum 'leaking out' In-Reply-To: References: <20111101144353.U4247@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111101153227.M4247@shell.lmi.net> > > Not quite the same as when the dark leaks out of your darkroom. On Tue, 1 Nov 2011, John Many Jars wrote: > I've had the smoke leak out of things. That was usually bad. But unlike either of these, nor shortage of computrons, vacuum can be partially refilled. If you take the device that has had its vacuum leak out, and put it in a large container, and pump that container full of LOTS of vacuum, some of the vacuum will leak back into the device! Unfortunately, that technique does not seem to work with dark, computrons, nor magic smoke (the smoke may go in, but loses its magic properties). From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 1 17:37:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:37:43 -0400 Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: References: <4EAC281F.1050600@otter.se> Message-ID: <4EB074B7.1090104@neurotica.com> On 11/01/2011 05:10 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Glen Slick": Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:34 AM >> On Oct 31, 2011 3:42 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >>> I think an arc can actually puncture the glass, in which case the vacuum >>> will leak out. Not a Good Thing >> >> As someone who likes to be pedantic and complain about improper use of >> terminology, can you explain how a vacuum leaks out? > > Isn't it just like the current flowing from positive to negative? "Hole flow", ugh...one little mistake soooo long ago... -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 1 17:44:12 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 22:44:12 +0000 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB0763C.8080200@dunnington.plus.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 31/10/2011 21:51, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> I have (and use) an Acorn Cambridge Workstation. > One of these, in fact, currently a resident of my spare bedroom! > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/acw/index.php I wish I still had either of mine. Both were loaned or donated to dealers in the later stages of that product's life :-( There were more than 4 models in the ABC range, though, Witchy. I had a Z80 one briefly (ABC100, the one with twin floppies and CP/M), and there were two models of 32016-based ones (ABC200 with floppies and ABC210 with a hard drive), both of which I've seen. I don't remember ever seeing an ABC Personal Assistant (6502 copro) or an ABC Terminal in the flesh, though. I still have the product range brochure, a few other bits and pieces, and the software catalogue for the ABC100 and ABC110 range. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Nov 1 18:07:56 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:07:56 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/1/11 2:15 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: -snip- >> - We released the full source code to our own format, IPF, introduced over >> ten years ago, that stores original data as found on original disks, e.g. >> custom formats and copy protection. > >> Can we do better? Please let us know! > > I'm pleased to see the project opening up (release of library source, > etc). I was a bit uncomfortable with what I perceived to be a proprietary > approach earlier on. > > What would really be the clincher for me is the ability to take a sector > image of the various machines, e.g. an Apple ProDOS or DOS 3.3 "*.po" > image and write it to a diskette. I get the impression that it currently > has the ability to read flux transitions and extract such sector images, > but nothing mentions the capability of re-creating a track image and > writing them out to media. >From reading their forums to turn the resulting data into an image you have to send it to them and they have to process it. Their explination is that the software and knowledge is beyond the pricepoint of most people (software) and most people don't have the knowledge to decode a flux recording.... >From their FAQ. - Q: Is it true that at present, the only way to make IPF is to send it to SPS as the current software does not have the function to make IPF? Will the functions to make IPF images and write these back to disk be made available in the near future i.e are you guys working on enabling these functions for public use? A: KryoFlux is an imaging solution. It was made to ingest a broad range of source media and directly transfer standard formats into sector dump images. IPFs are made by preservationists that have a strong knowledge of disk coding, formats and protections. The software used for this, the CTA Software Preservation Analyser, is a highly specialised product that is available to institutions, archives and libraries. It is also available to private users, but its high price tag is very likely to be beyond what a private person is willing to invest. Preserving software is not a one-click process although the Analyser has advanced features built in that help working on a disk very fast. Nevertheless, in the hands of an untrained person, the analyser will not be of much use. Because of this, making IPFs is not available in DTC. These are two products with different functionality. It is planned to bring writing of stream and draft to DTC, but please understand that this is nor a priority, neither does this mean that such files can always be successfully written to disk. IPFs are not only analysed, they contain information on how the data is going to be written (instead of all other formats known to us which store data how it was read). It is easy to tell how data will be read back after it was written, but not how it was written, if you only know how it reads back. The Software Preservation Society is working closely with archives around the world and does offer inspection of data and generation of IPFs as a free service. This service is limited by the time available for this task. Q: Why isn't the Analyser available to the public for free, too? A: Because it's a very special product that was created over the last decade. Many many many man-hours of work went into the Analyser. In the hands of a preservationist it's a powerful tool, but will be totally unusable for the unexperienced user. Think of an IDE for C++ or similar. If you can't write programs (=understand MFM and other variants of disk coding) even the most advanced IDE will be useless. It is very easy to produce broken IPFs if you do not know what you are doing. The result would be a world full of broken IPFs or IPFs made from modified sources that would be "disguised" as genuine. Therefore it requires a huge amount of support to train new people on how to use it. This takes much time, time we would spend on playing with our kids, going to the cinema or having a good time with friends. It is not meant to sound ignorant or arrogant, but it is a high class product for a very small niche and people needing it can afford buying it. This will not only compensate us for the time spent, but also bring some revenue for further development and preservation in general. Because of the above the product does come with a protection device (dongle) that does contain the actual licence. We therefore can't give out demos easily. But: If you think you should have it because you want / can help please do not hesitate to contact us. Asking is always allowed. - end quote from FAQ- > > I have an interest in archiving, but I'm also an avid tinkerer with old > hardware and often need to generate "real" diskettes from a sector image. > > Some of the machines I would need to do this for: > > Northstar hard-sector > Amiga 5.25 and 3.5 > C64 (GCR) > Apple 2 and 3 (GCR) > Intel MDS system (M2FM) > ... > > etc. > > I have technical means for all of the above now, but they are inconvenient > and/or require dragging out and setting up something particular to that > one operation. "One stop" shopping would be great. > > If the unit is capable of doing this, please advise? > > Steve > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 20:44:50 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:44:50 -0400 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8DA00101-E0E5-480C-9D05-66E3835CAE9C@gmail.com> On Nov 1, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> For example, most cheap clock radios have one 4-pin DIP running the > > Iasusme htat's '40 pin DIP'. The only 4 pin DIPS I've seen have been > bridge rectifiers. Yeah, I corrected that later. Silly mistake. :-) > An wful lot of those clocks are not multiplexed at all. Think about it. > THey are genuine 7 segment displays (no decimal points0, and the most > significant digit is either blank, 1 or 2 (or maybe blank and 1 if you > have 12 hour clock). There's easily enough pins on a 40 pin chip to > direclty drive those, along with a few other outputs (flashing colon, > alarm, turn-on-radio, etc) and inputs (setting swtiches, etc). May be true; the few cheap clock radios I've disassembled to try to fix (because their alarm noises were particularly effective and they were no longer made, not because I was too cheap to pay $9 for a new one) certainly all had the same chip (or generic functional equivalents) driving them. They were all multiplexed drivers, and the datasheets went into great detail about how to wire up 7-segment displays properly. Admittedly, it's a statistically invalid sample (about 3, if memory serves). Perhaps I'm misremembering the size of the DIP; it could have been a 28-pin. Those clocks are long-dead (they turned out to have dead ICs of one type or another, and since they were all long out of production, replacements were unavailable), so I can't look them up again. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 1 21:35:45 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111020235.WAA25324@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The only 4 pin DIPS I've seen have been bridge rectifiers. Total side note: I've seen some that are optoisolators. > An wful lot of those clocks are not multiplexed at all. The one clock I've dug into in enough detail to say anything about this is multiplexed by a factor of two, driven off mains power. Half the segments are (potentially) driven during one half of mains power, the other half of the segments during the other half of the power cycle. This means it flickers at 60Hz, which was apparently considered acceptable, and, actually, I'm not sure that's all that wrong a decision for its target purpose. I know that clock because I used it to make a _big_ clock to hang on the wall: I opened up a commercial clock, cut the ribbon cable between the main PCB and the display, probed the display to deduce its pinout, and wired up a bunch of LEDs in an electrically similar configuration forming digits about ten inches high. The original clock board fits, with plenty of space to spare, in a corner of the result. I even managed to find the 12/24 mode pin, so I didn't have to resort to logic hackery to convert a 12-hour-plus-am/pm-bit display into a proper 24-hour display. I'm proud of the result. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 22:17:24 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:17:24 -0500 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: <201111020235.WAA25324@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201111020235.WAA25324@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:35 PM, Mouse wrote: > The one clock I've dug into in enough detail to say anything about this > is multiplexed by a factor of two, driven off mains power. ?Half the > segments are (potentially) driven during one half of mains power, the > other half of the segments during the other half of the power cycle. This is a very common arrangement of one-chip inexpensive LED clocks in the US. I did some clock hacking a while back because I wanted a 24-hr clock at the South Pole and those are hard to find from US sources (not so in NZ or Oz, but those are 220V - the 50Hz vs 60Hz is often a jumper option, but the voltage is usually a fixed-winding transformer, not so easily hacked). > I know that clock because I used it to make a _big_ clock to hang on > the wall: I opened up a commercial clock, cut the ribbon cable between > the main PCB and the display, probed the display to deduce its pinout, > and wired up a bunch of LEDs in an electrically similar configuration > forming digits about ten inches high. ?The original clock board fits, > with plenty of space to spare, in a corner of the result. Nice. My hack was to take a larger clock (3" digits) implemented as a bunch of 805-sized SMT LEDs on a PCB and populate the missing LEDs (onto bare pads) to allow the 10s-of-hours digit to render 2 as well as 1 (cheap American clocks can only render blank or 1). The clock chip won't try to render a leading 0 when in 24-hr mode, so only six of the seven segments were on copper on the board. I got the 805 LEDs from a pile of dead Quantum IDE hard drives - the size and color of the activity lights were a match for the bare dice and flying wire LEDs installed on the clock at the factory. > I even managed to find the 12/24 mode pin, so I didn't have to resort > to logic hackery to convert a 12-hour-plus-am/pm-bit display into a > proper 24-hour display. Yep. I've hacked 3-4 types of cheap alarm clocks and the 12/24 mode pin is usually right at one end. Some clock PCBs even have solder pads to make an easy jumper. The only issue I've seen is the cheapest clocks only have 2 segments populated in the 10s-hours place. If you made your own digits, then you wouldn't run into that. > I'm proud of the result. :) As you should be - reverse engineering, repurposing, extending functionality... hacking all. -ethan From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 06:30:02 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 07:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Nov 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > > On 11/1/11 2:15 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > -snip- >>> - We released the full source code to our own format, IPF, introduced over >>> ten years ago, that stores original data as found on original disks, e.g. >>> custom formats and copy protection. >> >>> Can we do better? Please let us know! >> >> I'm pleased to see the project opening up (release of library source, >> etc). I was a bit uncomfortable with what I perceived to be a proprietary >> approach earlier on. >> >> What would really be the clincher for me is the ability to take a sector >> image of the various machines, e.g. an Apple ProDOS or DOS 3.3 "*.po" >> image and write it to a diskette. I get the impression that it currently >> has the ability to read flux transitions and extract such sector images, >> but nothing mentions the capability of re-creating a track image and >> writing them out to media. > > From reading their forums to turn the resulting data into an image you have > to send it to them and they have to process it. Their explination is that > the software and knowledge is beyond the pricepoint of most people > (software) and most people don't have the knowledge to decode a flux > recording.... > > >> From their FAQ. (snip) Thanks for pointing that out. They are welcome to use whatever business/IP model they wish, but this one bothers me enough that I would avoid the device. I'll continue using the Catweasel and my various other boxes to make images and hope that Philip gets the support software for DiscFerret fleshed out in the near future. Philip? You've been very quiet lately. How's progress? Steve -- From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Nov 2 07:55:59 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:55:59 +0000 Subject: Recommend an IRC server Message-ID: <352216273-1320238559-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1074148065-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Can anyone recommend an open source IRC server, preferably BSD or MIT-style licensed, that doesn't have dependencies on scripting languages or much else? I'd like a pure C, C++ etc. solution if possible. I'm looking for something to test socket applications against. It doesn't have to be a super duper server or have zillions of features. Something basic would be good enough, but I will want to build and run it on several platforms. Thanks. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Nov 2 09:49:16 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:49:16 -0500 Subject: Recommend an IRC server In-Reply-To: <352216273-1320238559-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1074148065-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <352216273-1320238559-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1074148065-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <0CCE2B36-D55A-4CE4-91C8-8504DD581C69@lunar-tokyo.net> On Nov 2, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Vintage Coder wrote: > Can anyone recommend an open source IRC server, preferably BSD or MIT-style licensed, that doesn't have dependencies on scripting languages or much else? I'd like a pure C, C++ etc. solution if possible. > > I'm looking for something to test socket applications against. It doesn't have to be a super duper server or have zillions of features. Something basic would be good enough, but I will want to build and run it on several platforms. > > Thanks. I run an Unreal ircd for a friend, it doesn't suck up too much. If you don't need services it should be pretty straightforward. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 2 11:23:29 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:23:29 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> On 11/2/11 4:30 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> From reading their forums to turn the resulting data into an image you have >> to send it to them and they have to process it. Their explination is that >> the software and knowledge is beyond the pricepoint of most people >> (software) and most people don't have the knowledge to decode a flux >> recording.... >> > Thanks for pointing that out. They are welcome to use whatever business/IP model they wish, but this one bothers me enough that I would avoid the device. > And what prevents them from "archiving" anything you send them? > I'll continue using the Catweasel and my various other boxes to make images and hope that Philip gets the support software for DiscFerret fleshed out in the near future. > My feelings exactly. I can't imagine any professional archive taking this group seriously, and it is completely opposite of CHM's policy of preserving and making available any information on underlying media formats that we find. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 12:17:39 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 17:17:39 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On 31 October 2011 21:31, Andrew Burton wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liam Proven" >> >> Many thanks! Lots of food for further reading there. >> >> May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: >> >> * Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. >> * Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of > you." >> * Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. >> > > Interesting quote comparing Common Lisp with an anime (Howls Moving Castle). > The anime is made by one of the legendary studios within the genre (Studio > Ghibli). So I guess it would be a great complement to the language. > My favourite Subaru is the Imprezza and any sports car has to be driven in > manual gears to get the most pleasure out of driving it - just don't go from > 5th gear to 1st, whilst at high speed!!! /Howl's Moving Castle/ is a *novel* by thr late Diana Wynne Jones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howl%27s_Moving_Castle The book was subsequently adapted into a film by Hayao Miyazaki. The point of the quote is not the film; it's the eponymous object. In other words, the Scheme is small and fast and elegant but possibly a bit too much hard work for some people; that Emacs Lisp may not be pretty but it gets the job done very well; and that Common Lisp is, especially by comparison to the other two, impossibly large and complex and baroque and completely and utterly impractical. /That/ is what I was after folks' opinions on! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 12:26:00 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 17:26:00 +0000 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & implementation In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EAD86B4.7050504@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADCB5C.7000101@neurotica.com> <4EADE5B7.4020100@telegraphics.com.au> <4EADF497.5020706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 31 October 2011 13:13, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Acorn made some nice machines. Does anybody know if the RISC OS > version of BBC BASIC includes inline ARM assembly support? That would > be fun. Yes, it does. There is now a free RISC PC emulator out there, too: RPCemu Spoon Edition. Due to a lot of recent work by the maintainer, who's a mate of mine, it now runs the small-f free Shared Source edition of RISC OS from RISC OS Open Ltd - "ROOL". http://www.marutan.net/rpcemuspoon/ http://www.riscosopen.org/ So you can download a free emulator, a free set of ROMs containing the most current version of one fork of RISC OS, and play with BBC BASIC V for nothing. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 2 12:28:26 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Thanks for pointing that out. They are welcome to use whatever >> business/IP model they wish, Yeah...and we are free to avoid whatever models we wish. :-) I sent them mail saying "I would want documentatino on how to talk to the hardware, because your GUI will not be suitable for me" (any UI that's suitable to most of pretty much any market has an excellent chance of being somewhere between unpleasant and unsable for me). Of course, given that documentation, there's no need for any of their software. Even if they're right that nearly nobody understands how to go between flux patterns and data, that's fixable. >> I'll continue using [other things] to make images [...] > My feelings exactly. Quite. Document it enough I can write my own software to drive it, and I might be interested in the hardware. I will not be interested in undocumented hardware and, as mentioned above, I will not be interested in the software (unless it's open sourced, and then only insofar as it forms documentation on how to talk to the hardware). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 13:02:04 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 13:02:04 -0500 Subject: BBC Microcomputer & BBC BASIC - Re: Lisp/Scheme exposition & In-Reply-To: <4EB0763C.8080200@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EB0763C.8080200@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4EB1859C.40708@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 31/10/2011 21:51, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >>> I have (and use) an Acorn Cambridge Workstation. > >> One of these, in fact, currently a resident of my spare bedroom! >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/acw/index.php > > I wish I still had either of mine. Both were loaned or donated to > dealers in the later stages of that product's life :-( I had a couple - one went when I moved, the other's still in storage. I think it was a 1MB one that I kept, and sold the 4MB, but I do have a stray 4MB board that I could always put in it (I've seen maybe ten or so ACWs over the years, and every single one has been different in some way; they barely ever made it out of the prototype phase, after all) I've still got a couple of 1MB 32016 add-on coprocessors for the BBC micro, too. > There were more than 4 models in the ABC range, though, Witchy. I had a > Z80 one briefly (ABC100, the one with twin floppies and CP/M), and there > were two models of 32016-based ones (ABC200 with floppies and ABC210 > with a hard drive), both of which I've seen. I don't remember ever > seeing an ABC Personal Assistant (6502 copro) or an ABC Terminal in the > flesh, though. I've never seen a PA or Terminal, either - they possibly only ever existed on paper. I do have an 80286 coprocessor from an ABC 3xx machine, however - it's complete, but came with Master 512 ROMs fitted (and didn't work, although the previous owner says he did see it cough out a startup message once before going silent) rather than anything specific to that board. I'm not sure if it was like that at Acorn, or if that was perhaps someone's later attempt to make it "do something". > I still have the product range brochure, a few other bits and pieces, > and the software catalogue for the ABC100 and ABC110 range. Yes, I think I have a few odds and sods like that. I seem to remember magazines of the time panning the business computer range; the BBC (or B+) was getting rather long in the tooth by then, and the case looks like some '70s throwback - the fact that they're uncommon and quirky appeals to me, but I can see how they proved very unpopular at the time. cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 13:42:40 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:42:40 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <85F614E1-03E9-45E8-8239-6677426D0F71@gmail.com> On Nov 2, 2011, at 1:28 PM, Mouse wrote: > Document it enough I can write my own software to drive it, and I might > be interested in the hardware. I will not be interested in > undocumented hardware and, as mentioned above, I will not be interested > in the software (unless it's open sourced, and then only insofar as it > forms documentation on how to talk to the hardware). Well, this sounds like an opportunity. I've been interested for quite a while in writing a raw-ish USB disk interface for archiving my old Mac and Apple II disks using modern, more reliable drives. If there's actually a demand out there for simple hardware that can be talked to via an open specification, I'd be glad to hear others' thoughts on what a good spec would be. It's ridiculously easy to do A/D and D/A on modern micros, and even the cheap, easy-to-drive ARMs have USB interfaces. Should be a cheap board to build and stick a JTAG interface on to let people muck around with their own firmware as much as they want. I'm also interested in building a similar device for 1/2" tape archival, but that requires some serious mechanical and analog design expertise that I just don't have (and don't currently have the time to pick up). Any interested takers on the floppy bit, though? Should be easy to build up a prototype that'll talk to a Shugart interface for a handful of bucks (maybe $50 in prototype quantities, though I'm pulling that number out of the air based on recent projects). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 2 14:45:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:45:55 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <85F614E1-03E9-45E8-8239-6677426D0F71@gmail.com> References: , <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <85F614E1-03E9-45E8-8239-6677426D0F71@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB13B83.8998.AD9A62@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2011 at 14:42, David Riley wrote: > It's ridiculously easy to do A/D and D/A on modern micros, and even > the cheap, easy-to-drive ARMs have USB interfaces. Should be a cheap > board to build and stick a JTAG interface on to let people muck around > with their own firmware as much as they want. Given that almost all disk drives are purely digital devices, there's no need for A/D conversion. Basically you need a microcontroller with "capture" (almost all have it) and PWM (again, almost all have it) and a bunch of memory (128K should handle everything up to about a "1.44MB" floppy; 256K if you want "2.88MB" capacity. Even an AVR running a 20MHz is more than sufficient for most stuff. Perhaps using an ARM with a faster timer improves resolution, but there are decreasing returns as the clock speed goes up. Floppy drives are pretty "wiggly" devices in the real world. And naturally, USB capabilities. It isn't hard--I've done it. The work is in the decoding./encoding software, not in the hardware. There are other competing devices--one called "Deviceside" that seem to have almost disappeared. My guess is that you wouldn't get wild interest. Far more interesting is a floppy emulator. I did a proof-of-concept one using a 16MHz AVR reading/writing to SDHC to emulate a 360K floppy drive. It takes raw sector-by-sector data and encodes it. Again, very simple (There are competing products, but, AFAIK, no open- source ones.). It really isn't rocket science. Phil's gizmo is a bit different because it can handle datarates into the ST506 drive range. Still, I wonder if a fast-enough uC might not be adequate for the job. I might be happy to participate in either, but I don't want to wind up fielding the PCB design and all of the software support. I've got better things to do with my time. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 2 15:03:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 13:03:01 -0700 Subject: PAL cloning Message-ID: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com> On the subject of hardware, I'd like to pass along a link that details my efforts to clone three PALs--the AT&T 6300 video display card HAL10L8; the Soundblaster 2.0 upgrade PAL16L8 and the Trantor T130B SCSI controller ROM address PAL16L8. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL- HAL-%28Part-1%29 I don't know if I'd stick with SSI TTL for the "brute forcer", but it worked well enough. I'd probably just use a cheap microcontroller if I were starting afresh. This appears to be a valid approach for pure combinatorial PALs and HALs. Registered devices are a different matter entirely. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 2 15:11:01 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 13:11:01 -0700 Subject: PAL cloning In-Reply-To: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB1A3D5.7070502@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > This appears to be a valid approach for pure combinatorial PALs and > HALs. Registered devices are a different matter entirely. The most challenging devices are actually the combinatorial ones where internal feedback is used to create sequential (not strictly combinatorial) circuits. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 2 15:59:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 13:59:11 -0700 Subject: PAL cloning In-Reply-To: <4EB1A3D5.7070502@brouhaha.com> References: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB1A3D5.7070502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB14CAF.24372.F0AD67@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2011 at 13:11, Eric Smith wrote: > The most challenging devices are actually the combinatorial ones where > internal feedback is used to create sequential (not strictly > combinatorial) circuits. True, but at least it's a start. In the blog posting, it's apparent that one can't do this blindly--that some knowledge of the circuit is very useful and very often, essential. --Chuck From lists at softpres.org Wed Nov 2 16:19:02 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:19:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <535271200.719716.1320268743122.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> On 01 November 2011 at 21:15 Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm pleased to see the project opening up (release of library source, > etc). ?I was a bit uncomfortable with what I perceived to be a proprietary > approach earlier on. We got there eventually at least. :) > What would really be the clincher for me is the ability to take a sector > image of the various machines, e.g. an Apple ProDOS or DOS 3.3 "*.po" > image and write it to a diskette. ?I get the impression that it currently > has the ability to read flux transitions and extract such sector images, > but nothing mentions the capability of re-creating a track image and > writing them out to media. That is not currently supported, no. We decided to do the hardest part first, writing IPF files, and doing it really well. As stated on our forums, other files, such as sector images, will come later. We are doing some C64-related work at the moment, but the plan is to support sector images for writing next. It almost goes without saying that, if it's sector images somebody needs for writing, then wait for that before getting a device. > I have an interest in archiving, but I'm also an avid tinkerer with old > hardware and often need to generate "real" diskettes from a sector image. Yes, absolutely. This is definitely a missing piece right now. I hope that helps clarify things. ? Kieron From lists at softpres.org Wed Nov 2 16:20:19 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:20:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1518784999.719771.1320268819619.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> On 02 November 2011 at 11:30 Steven Hirsch wrote: >> From their FAQ. > > (snip) > > Thanks for pointing that out. ?They are welcome to use whatever > business/IP model they wish, but this one bothers me enough that I would > avoid the device. That section of the FAQ is not completely relevant in this case. It refers to producing IPFs. If you want to write sector images, then there is of course no real need to create IPFs anyway in this case I guess. Our IPF creation software is a commercial product, and helps fund our preservation activity. Now that the IPF library has been open source, there isn't anything stopping somebody creating something similar of course, so that FAQ is out of date too. ? Kieron ? From lists at softpres.org Wed Nov 2 16:22:10 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:22:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <976583073.719865.1320268930805.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> On 02 November 2011 at 16:23 Al Kossow wrote: > And what prevents them from "archiving" anything you send them? I'm not really sure what you mean by that. People send SPS stuff to archive. Sure, there is not much point sending SPS stuff if it's not in scope for the project because that project is only concerned with preservation of unmodified and undamaged commercial software. Our commercial venture KryoFlux does provide a service to help people generate IPFs. That is something else entirely and completely independent from SPS (other than the same people are involved, and it uses technology developed for SPS). That is a professional service as you would expect, any data generated is destroyed as per an agreed contract. Nothing stops anyone "archiving" other people's data. Most people don't do it because it is unethical - I am not sure why you might think it would be different for us? > My feelings exactly. I can't imagine any professional archive taking this > group seriously, and it is > completely opposite of CHM's policy of preserving and making available any > information on underlying > media formats that we find. I'd be interested to understand why you think this. What are we doing wrong? Is it wrong to want to fund our preservation work by starting a commercial venture? What are we not making available? We've released the IPF library source, including an extremely accurate, cycle exact FDC emulator. We also have tons and tons of information on the SPS website about how things work (WIPs). IPF files contain the information about each disk formats, and now that is open, I am not really sure what else we can do? I am genuinely interested, because we do want to do the right thing (even if it might take us a while). Thanks, Kieron From cb at kryoflux.com Wed Nov 2 16:23:04 2011 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 22:23:04 +0100 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8089D87B-DA34-4BB8-BAFF-3AE99386782B@kryoflux.com> On 2 Nov 2011, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: I am summing up some answers here. I hope you are comfortable with this. > I'm pleased to see the project opening up (release of library source, > etc). I was a bit uncomfortable with what I perceived to be a proprietary > approach earlier on. We always promised and we keep our promises. > What would really be the clincher for me is the ability to take a sector > image of the various machines, e.g. an Apple ProDOS or DOS 3.3 "*.po" > image and write it to a diskette. I get the impression that it currently > has the ability to read flux transitions and extract such sector images, > but nothing mentions the capability of re-creating a track image and > writing them out to media. There are several image files for some platforms, we usually support one major as there usually are other tools to convert between these. Speaking of MFM: It's used by so many platforms that we do one generic MFM dump, which can then be further processed, e.g. by adding a header for some emulator. > I have an interest in archiving, but I'm also an avid tinkerer with old > hardware and often need to generate "real" diskettes from a sector image. > > Some of the machines I would need to do this for: > > Northstar hard-sector > Amiga 5.25 and 3.5 > C64 (GCR) > Apple 2 and 3 (GCR) > Intel MDS system (M2FM) > ... > > etc. > > I have technical means for all of the above now, but they are inconvenient > and/or require dragging out and setting up something particular to that > one operation. "One stop" shopping would be great. > > If the unit is capable of doing this, please advise? I think this and the quotes below originate all from the very same misunderstanding. KryoFlux _CAN_ be used to read data that can be transformed into IPFs. It's a feature, but you aren't locked to it. Like you can use your scanner to scan something, then load it in Acrobat and do a PDF. You can chose to use whatever imaging application you like, you are not forced to convert to PDF. In this case you could as well chose to convert the image file to PDF with a third party product. It's the same here. We made our STREAM format fully documented and open as well, so you can convert to whatever format you like. Take a look into the development section on our forums, there are third party apps that process and convert data. Looking at the formats above... DTC supports, among many others, Amiga, C64 and Apple out of the box for reading. Writing is _at the moment_ limited to IPF because we wanted to to the most challenging part first. We will be adding more sector formats to the write engine in the near future. It's fully expandable and it was made to be easily expandable. > Thanks for pointing that out. They are welcome to use whatever > business/IP model they wish, but this one bothers me enough that I would > avoid the device. Again, I think this refers to IPF. You are not locked into this format, but I don't think it's grossly unfair to ask those that want to use it on a professional basis to pay for it. To be honest, I haven't seen anything that compares to it, and I feel there won't be anything like it soon, if at all. It's not that I don't wish there should not be, I just don't think there are many engineers out there that can design such thing. I did not invent or program it, so I think I am allowed to say this. I would also like to point out that there aren't many willing to dedicate their time to developing tools for floppy disks as the niche is very small. > And what prevents them from "archiving" anything you send them? This question is SPS (Software Preservation Society) related. The project's scope is about preserving computer art, which usually means games. SPS shares these files with contributors that send in the same dump (e.g. you sent a damaged dump, lateron an undamaged one comes in... you would be given access). SPS also share games preserved with archives, libraries and museums. These assets were released into the commercial marketplace. It therefore makes sense to share between institutions, because you don't have to re-analyze something if you have a good preservation asset (unless it's a different version of course). A global collaboration makes sense and was the idea of the project. You could of course submit data as part of an assignment where SPS would be working specifically for you. This only answers your question if you would be willing to trust a contractor. > My feelings exactly. I can't imagine any professional archive taking this group seriously, and it is > completely opposite of CHM's policy of preserving and making available any information on underlying > media formats that we find. We do share information, about formats and things. Just look at our site or simply feel free to ask if it's missing. The Emulator II format we reversed was not only put into KryoFlux, but it was also put into HxC for emulation. Afaik it always was free, is free, so the decoder is right there available as open source. I posted the link to the WIRED article, and I would invite you to e.g. speak to the British Library and find out and get first hand information about our work for them. I can name you some other archives if you like, but would prefer to do this via regular email as I can't just post client information here. > I sent them mail saying "I would want documentatino on how to talk to > the hardware, because your GUI will not be suitable for me" (any UI > that's suitable to most of pretty much any market has an excellent > chance of being somewhere between unpleasant and unsable for me). I replied to this mail, twice. At least I tried. The first came back because you blacklisted our ISPs mailserver. I have no control over it, I don't know who and if someone uses it to spam. Anyway. I switched to my private email on my own machine and server. It was blocked again because your system tries to retrieve a whois record from the denic. As it seems, they either don't provide it there or not at all (they are the registry for Germany, so what can I do about it?) - so again my reply was blocked. I got tired and put it to rest. My reply, in short, was that the board has all standard components. There is no firmware flashed to the board, it's uploaded from the host software. If you ever used a 1541 with custom software... it's a bit like that. So all you need is take the ATMEL SDK and write your own code. There is nothing stopping you from using your own software with the board. I could say "why not use our firmware", but that would be a binary again and you said you don't run precompiled software. The complete schematics are supplied with the software download and you can do with them whatever you like as long as you don't sell it (schematics or boards). I think this is a fair limitation. One last, personal thing: There were some replies with "them" or "they". It feels a bit odd, like talking about someone in third-person when he's in the room. I follow the digest, so you can address me. I am not asking anyone to share my opinion or to spare me, so keep it coming. Thanks. From lists at softpres.org Wed Nov 2 16:24:46 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:24:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <2075114217.719983.1320269086162.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> On 02 November 2011 at 17:28 Mouse wrote: > I sent them mail saying "I would want documentatino on how to talk to > the hardware, because your GUI will not be suitable for me" (any UI > that's suitable to most of pretty much any market has an excellent > chance of being somewhere between unpleasant and unsable for me). Well, since I personally wrote the GUI for KryoFlux, I'd be very interested in what would work for you, even if you don't intend to use whatever changes we might make. The GUI was designed to be extremely easy to use, even for non-technical people such as those in libraries and archives. There are advanced features, but they are mostly hidden unless specifically wanted. I think it turned out pretty well, if I do say so myself. Some examples: http://www.softpres.org/kryoflux:ui:stream-plot http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=262 As it happens, even though I wrote the graphical user interface, I didn't need to know anything about how to talk to the hardware. The GUI just uses the existing software supplied. Anyone could have done it really. > Document it enough I can write my own software to drive it, and I might > be interested in the hardware. ?I will not be interested in > undocumented hardware and, as mentioned above, I will not be interested > in the software (unless it's open sourced, and then only insofar as it > forms documentation on how to talk to the hardware). That is fair enough. If it is not suitable for you, then it's not. We do have the stream file/protocol documented at least: http://www.softpres.org/kryoflux:stream It would be nice to document it completely as you want, but we have very limited resources, and unless there is much demand for something, we would find it hard to prioritise it. I think you might agree that your requirement is a little unusual... :) Kieron From lists at softpres.org Wed Nov 2 16:46:03 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:46:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <8089D87B-DA34-4BB8-BAFF-3AE99386782B@kryoflux.com> References: <8089D87B-DA34-4BB8-BAFF-3AE99386782B@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <426606276.720920.1320270363597.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> On 02 November 2011 at 21:23 "Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd." wrote: Heh. What amazing timing we have?Chrisitian. :) Well, maybe not such a coincidence. We get home about the same time I suppose. Kieron ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 2 16:03:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:03:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: <4EB0033B.11823.12F2F1C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 1, 11 02:33:31 pm Message-ID: > Charlie Allen of Maxim. Pretty nuch the right idea, but most > variations also make use of the ability to float a line (high > impedance) as well. I think that's required to avoid other LEDs turning on, isn't it. If a pin has to be either high or low, then (without giving it much thought) can you do any better than conventional multiplexing? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 2 16:04:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:04:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vacuum 'leaking out' In-Reply-To: from "John Many Jars" at Nov 1, 11 09:53:22 pm Message-ID: > I've had the smoke leak out of things. That was usually bad. As I am sure everybody here knows (probably by practical esperience :-)) smoke is what makes ICs and other componentns work. You cna tell this becuase when the smoke comes out they stop working, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 2 16:45:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:45:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: <201111020235.WAA25324@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 1, 11 10:35:45 pm Message-ID: > > > The only 4 pin DIPS I've seen have been bridge rectifiers. > > Total side note: I've seen some that are optoisolators. Yes, you're right. Most optoisolatoers are 6 pin DIPs, and there are some that are 8 (even for single opto-isolators, if they have some amplifier or logic circuit o nthe output side). Of coruse dual are normally 8 pin, quad are 16 pin. But yes, I have seen a few 4-pin single optoisolators. > > > An wful lot of those clocks are not multiplexed at all. > > The one clock I've dug into in enough detail to say anything about this > is multiplexed by a factor of two, driven off mains power. Half the > segments are (potentially) driven during one half of mains power, the > other half of the segments during the other half of the power cycle. I have certainly come across some that are not multiplexed. > > This means it flickers at 60Hz, which was apparently considered > acceptable, and, actually, I'm not sure that's all that wrong a > decision for its target purpose. > > I know that clock because I used it to make a _big_ clock to hang on > the wall: I opened up a commercial clock, cut the ribbon cable between > the main PCB and the display, probed the display to deduce its pinout, > and wired up a bunch of LEDs in an electrically similar configuration > forming digits about ten inches high. The original clock board fits, > with plenty of space to spare, in a corner of the result. I am sure you're right. I am thinking back to something I did about 25 years ago. I built a magzien project to receive and decode the MSF standard time broadcassts. This project had a BCD output to drive an external display, and I obtaiend a Radio Shack large-display clock which I extracrd the display from and interfaced it to this MSF receiver. I remmebr this display as being 2-way multiplexed, come to think of it. The IC in the Radi oSHcak clock had fewer than 40 pins I think, though. I will still have it _somwwhere_, just don't expect me to find it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 2 16:35:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:35:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP screen screen rot In-Reply-To: <4EB074B7.1090104@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 1, 11 06:37:43 pm Message-ID: > > Isn't it just like the current flowing from positive to negative? > > "Hole flow", ugh...one little mistake soooo long ago... Err yes... And of course the affor on a semiconductor diode or bipolar transistor symbol points i nthe direction of conventional (+ve to -ve) current flow through the device. [As an aside, and nothing to do with hole/conventional current, at one time, the _cathode_ of a semiconductor rectifier was labelled with a '+' sign -- like this : \ | + ----->|-------- / | The explaination was that this is the side you connectto the +ve output terminal when maing a half-wave recrtifier (!).] I once tied a physics teacher up in mental knots... Whe had bee discussing what happens if you pass a current through a slab of material with a perpendicualr maginetic field. Obviousl ythe moving charge carriers are deflected by said field towards the other 2 faces of the slab, and a voltaeg is thus set up between them. This is the Hall Effect, of coruse, as used in Hall Effect sensors and the like. Now it turns out that hhat if you keep the polarity of the current source and magneitc field constant, the driection that the charge carriers are deflected is independant of their sign -- if the sign is reversd, the direction of motion of the charge carriers along the slave is reversed, which compentsates for the fact that the magnetic force's direction also depends on the polarity of the moving charge. The othe polarity of the voltage tyhat's set up does depend o nthe sign of the charge carriers. This is an experimentlaly-observed fact, and is one way of telling n-type from p-type materials. I then pointed out that he had told us the week befroe that the hole current was actually an electron current goign the other way, filling up the holes. So my question was 'OK, if that's the case, why does the Hall voltage reverse in sign?' Yes, OK, I was evil. There is acutaly no classical explanation for this... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 2 16:39:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:39:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Nov 1, 11 04:07:56 pm Message-ID: > >From reading their forums to turn the resulting data into an image you have > > to send it to them and they have to process it. Their explination is > > that the software and knowledge is beyond the pricepoint of most people > > (software) and most people don't have the knowledge to decode a flux > > recording.... There are few quicker ways to lose me as a potential customer than to insult me. And I consider telling me that I am not clever enough to do something to be doing just that (it may be true that I can't work out how to decode the data, but I'll decider that for myself... As a more general question, what advantage(s) does this product have over the DiskFerret, which I understnat to be completly 'open'? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 2 17:42:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:42:43 -0700 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: References: <4EB0033B.11823.12F2F1C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 1, 11 02:33:31 pm, Message-ID: <4EB164F3.5885.14F7774@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2011 at 21:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > Charlie Allen of Maxim. Pretty nuch the right idea, but most > > variations also make use of the ability to float a line (high > > impedance) as well. > > I think that's required to avoid other LEDs turning on, isn't it. If a > pin has to be either high or low, then (without giving it much > thought) can you do any better than conventional multiplexing? If you count an n-input decoder/demux, then no, you can drive 2**n lines; Charlieplexing is n*(n-1). e.g., if you have 6 output pins, you can drive 64 LEDs using a traditional demux or 30 LEDs using Charlieplexing with no additional logic. It saves money, but can't beat regular muxing. CP also suffers from issues with leakage current, where some LEDs remain dimly illuminated. --Chuck From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Nov 2 18:20:02 2011 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:20:02 +0000 Subject: Core memory cross compatibility Message-ID: <1320276002.27437.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Has anyone sat down and worked out interchangeability of memory parts on 16-bit core based systems. I'm thinking in terms of things like PDP-11s HP 21xx and DG Novas. I'm curious if anyone has compiled such a thing, aside from direct part number comparison -- or has guidance of non-like core stack replacement. I'm not planning on attempting to do anything of the kind just now, but it might be useful to know what's possible as supplies dwindle. --Colin From lists at softpres.org Wed Nov 2 18:32:29 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 23:32:29 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 Nov 2011, at 21:39, Tony Duell wrote: >>> From reading their forums to turn the resulting data into an image you have >>> to send it to them and they have to process it. Their explination is >>> that the software and knowledge is beyond the pricepoint of most people >>> (software) and most people don't have the knowledge to decode a flux >>> recording.... Firstly, please note that this above paragraph is almost completely incorrect. 1) You don't have to send anything to KryoFlux or SPS to use the KryoFlux hardware & software. It can create a raw (documented) flux transition stream for you that you can decode yourself (and a few people have done so). You can also get it to create one of many sector-based formats the KryoFlux software supports out of the box. 2) Sending stuff to "us" (meaning SPS I assume), I think refers to creating IPF files. This has nothing to do with KryoFlux. People, until recently, couldn't create IPF files themselves. The IPF library source is now available, so people now can do it if they want, so the comment doesn't really apply anyway. 3) The bit about saying that "most people don't have the knowledge to decode flux recording" - I am not sure why we would say that - since people have already done it using our documentation. Perhaps this refers to a conversation on opening IPF (again, nothing to do with KryoFlux), where we said we didn't make it a priority because we didn't think it would be very much use to most people (but we always said it was an absolutely necessary). It's now open anyway. > There are few quicker ways to lose me as a potential customer than to > insult me. And I consider telling me that I am not clever enough to do > something to be doing just that (it may be true that I can't work out how > to decode the data, but I'll decider that for myself... The data is pretty simple to decode really. It's just a flux transition stream, slightly encoded for bandwidth efficiency (but completely documented). So again, I don't think we would have said that (I welcome being proved wrong, somebody please post a link). Anyway, I'm not trying to sell you anything, you may decide it just isn't right for you. I just want to put the record straight. I admit that we (SPS) have taken too long to do some things - stuff now rectified. But we seem to get bashed in here whenever we or KryoFlux is mentioned for reasons I don't really understand. All we wanted to do when we started SPS 10 years ago was to preserve software, we created some very nice tools to help us to that, and one year ago we started a company with the exact purpose of using those tools to help fund our preservation efforts - and it doesn't currently do any more than that (in fact, it doesn't help very much) - the KryoFlux personal edition is in fact sold at a massive loss when you factor in the time we spend on it. Anyway, I am not complaining, I am just interested find out why this might be the case, and what we can do to improve things. If anybody has ideas on that, I would be very interested to know... Thanks, Kieron From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 2 18:46:12 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 19:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <8089D87B-DA34-4BB8-BAFF-3AE99386782B@kryoflux.com> References: <8089D87B-DA34-4BB8-BAFF-3AE99386782B@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <201111022346.TAA11215@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I sent them mail [...] > I replied to this mail, twice. At least I tried. Figures. To avoid dumping unrelated traffic on the list, I'll reply to this part off-list; knowing that at least part of the problem is .de, I have a few things to suggest. >> "I would want documentatino on how to talk to the hardware, [...]" > My reply, in short, was that the board has all standard components. > There is no firmware flashed to the board, it's uploaded from the > host software. Encouraging. > There is nothing stopping you from using your own software with the > board. I could say "why not use our firmware", but that would be a > binary again and you said you don't run precompiled software. I do accept it for firmware under some circumstances, such as the firmware in disk drives and the like. In this case, if the interface your firmware presents to the host is documented, I very well might be willing to do exactly that. (I don't _like_ it, especially not as compared to open-source code, but I'm not as dogmatic and strident about it as I am when it comes to software running on the host.) > One last, personal thing: There were some replies with "them" or > "they". It feels a bit odd, like talking about someone in > third-person when he's in the room. I follow the digest, so you can > address me. Well, perhaps it's unusual of me, but, even if I were in a room, a real physical room, with others, and person A described something A and some others were doing, and then I were talking to person B about it, I very well may speak of A-and-collaborators in the third person, even with A right there. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 2 19:38:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 17:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111102173811.I51374@shell.lmi.net> On 2 Nov 2011, at 21:39, Tony Duell wrote: > There are few quicker ways to lose me as a potential customer than to > insult me. . . . AND is it a USB device? From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 2 19:44:08 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:44:08 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> Message-ID: <4EB1E3D8.8010304@brouhaha.com> John Robertson wrote: > Has anyone tried to read the data from the Mostek 3851 > PSU (ROM, I/O) used with the 3850? I've read them in the past. Must have been around 1992 or so. I used a single-board computer based on the R6511Q microcontroller (6502-based), and wired the 3851 bus to GPIO port pins. There was simple firmware in 6502 assembly language, and it output the contents in S-record format out a serial port. The firmware generated all of the control signals for the 3851, including the clock, by bit-banging. IIRC, there was a minimum clock frequency spec for the 3851, but I didn't have any trouble meeting it. I did NOT try to ensure that all clock cycles were the same duration, which would have required cycle-counting various code paths, but the 3851 didn't care. Alas, I don't have the code any more, but that probably doesn't matter much since it's unlikely that one could find a 6511Q board. Regrettably I don't have time to develop another 3851 reader, but I don't recall there having been anything fundamentally difficult about it. Reading the 3870 single-chip micro is considerably more tricky. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 2 19:46:07 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <2075114217.719983.1320269086162.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2075114217.719983.1320269086162.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> Message-ID: <201111030046.UAA11865@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> (any UI that's suitable to most of pretty much any market has an >> excellent chance of being somewhere between unpleasant and unsable >> for me) > Well, since I personally wrote the GUI for KryoFlux, I'd be very > interested in what would work for you, even if you don't intend to > use whatever changes we might make. Well, the first thing is that (a) it must be possible to get it out of reverse video and (b) it must be usable in that mode. Large areas of bright on the screen are not something I can get along with. ((b) seems self-evident, but there are a depressing number of interfaces that satisfy (a) but end up breaking somehow when that's done, typically by displaying important things black-on-black or some operational equivalent such as very-dark-blue-on-black.) The next most important thing (in your case, see my next paragraph) is that the GUI must not be the only way to do things. GUIs are pretty much useless as components and mostly demand a user to drive them. This makes it impossible to, for example, script operation with input and/or output redirected. You write that the GUI "just uses the existing software supplied", so this is mostly a non-issue in your case, at least provided that existing software is documented (which I wish I could assume it is but have far too often run into cases where it isn't; what you've said elsewhere makes me think this isn't an issue in your case either). Third is that it must not force me to bounce back and forth between the mouse and the keyboard. I can deal with - indeed, I've written - interfaces that are entirely, or almost entirely, mouse-driven. Ditto keyboard-driven. But interfaces apparently written under either the assumption that I have a third hand for the mouse or the assumption that I type with only one hand kill whatever productivity I might otherwise have had under them. The last of the things that bother me is substantially vaguer: it must not give me the impression that it's dumbing things down for me. Being able to see that there must be $THING lurking underneath which might be useful or even just interesting, but keeping me away from it, is a sure way to have me swearing at, rather than by, the software. (This is probably related to my insistence on open-source OSes; while I don't want to be, for example, poking device registers routinely, not being able to do such things even experimentally upsets me.) > The GUI was designed to be extremely easy to use, even for > non-technical people such as those in libraries and archives. This may be an issue. Easy to use for novices usually means crippling for experts. (Usually. I'm sure there are exceptions; indeed, I think I've seen a few, though I can't think of any offhand.) Again, perhaps it's just me, but, historically speaking, I usually find it takes fairly little time for me to become expert enough to be frustrated by "you don't need to know that" (or, more accurately, "we don't think you should want to know that") interfaces. > It would be nice to document it completely as you want, but we have > very limited resources, and unless there is much demand for > something, we would find it hard to prioritise it. I think you might > agree that your requirement is a little unusual... :) Oh, certainly. I'm not under any delusion that my ideal system is likely to be forthcoming anytime soon! But, you did ask. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 2 20:02:18 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:02:18 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/11/11 1:17 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 31 October 2011 21:31, Andrew Burton wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Liam Proven" >>> >>> Many thanks! Lots of food for further reading there. >>> >>> May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: >>> >>> * Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. >>> * Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of >> you." >>> * Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. >>> >> >> Interesting quote comparing Common Lisp with an anime (Howls Moving Castle). >> The anime is made by one of the legendary studios within the genre (Studio >> Ghibli). So I guess it would be a great complement to the language. >> My favourite Subaru is the Imprezza and any sports car has to be driven in >> manual gears to get the most pleasure out of driving it - just don't go from >> 5th gear to 1st, whilst at high speed!!! > > /Howl's Moving Castle/ is a *novel* by thr late Diana Wynne Jones: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howl%27s_Moving_Castle > > The book was subsequently adapted into a film by Hayao Miyazaki. > > The point of the quote is not the film; it's the eponymous object. In > other words, the Scheme is small and fast and elegant but possibly a > bit too much hard work for some people; that Emacs Lisp may not be > pretty but it gets the job done very well; and that Common Lisp is, > especially by comparison to the other two, impossibly large and > complex and baroque and completely and utterly impractical. I think that is overstating the case. Again, I don't see the purpose of the metaphor; they only seem to harden people's uninformed opinions - the kind of lazy short-circuiting ("You mentioned Lisp, so let's make a parenthesis joke, even though I haven't ever written any Lisp" / "Omg Haskell, that monad stuff is craziness, I'll stick with PHP thanks" / "Oh no, I can't use Scheme for this, it's TOO SLOW") that seems to happen far too often in this business already. I recently began reading Paul Graham's "On Lisp" (a comprehensive and very approachable manual to Common Lisp macros, with a lot of good general advice throughout*), and found that the parts of Common Lisp that I expected to find crufty turn out to be not so bad. I see no reason to write it off as a baroque monstrosity, yet, and certainly won't do so without taking it for a good long country drive (as I am now trying to do with Scheme). --Toby * - Peter Norvig's Tutorial on Good Lisp Programming Style is also indispensable for any programmer, not just Lisp programmers. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1098 > > /That/ is what I was after folks' opinions on! > From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 2 20:19:32 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:19:32 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <2075114217.719983.1320269086162.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2075114217.719983.1320269086162.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> Message-ID: <4EB1EC24.1090705@verizon.net> On 11/2/2011 5:24 PM, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: (Kieron replying to someone else) > The GUI was designed to be extremely easy to use, even for > non-technical people such as those in libraries and archives. There > are advanced features, but they are mostly hidden unless specifically > wanted. I think it turned out pretty well, if I do say so myself. Some > examples: > > http://www.softpres.org/kryoflux:ui:stream-plot > http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=262 > > As it happens, even though I wrote the graphical user interface, I > didn't need to know anything about how to talk to the hardware. The > GUI just uses the existing software supplied. Anyone could have done > it really. Hi. I find it interesting what different (fairly independently developed) designs have in common for this type of job of reading floppies. ie, How did other smarter-than-me people accomplish the same task? Was my solution better or worse? I built an open source(java client software) and open hardware (HDL released) solution for reading amiga floppy disks, and it was(is?) a whole lot of fun developing it. Learning both the amiga-specific stuff and the technology stuff. My blog is at http://techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog/ which is ATM being reworked(but completely online and available), again. I'm starting to add some generic FPGA notes, examples, etc. I played with a few different microcontroller designs (using a 50mhz Parallax SX, which was really well suited to the task) and then eventually a Xilinx FPGA approach. When I saw your links above, they reminded me of my analysis of my amiga floppy data on my posts here http://techtravels.org/?p=362 and http://techtravels.org/?p=263 These are obviously generated outside of my client software, but could be integrated with a little work. Based on the number of unique non-search-engine hits my blog has taken over the years, there is a fair number of people who dabble in this stuff. I get email every few months about a new project from someone working on the task. Your screen shots look pretty sweet. Thanks Keith From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 2 20:51:29 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 01:51:29 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111022346.TAA11215@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <8089D87B-DA34-4BB8-BAFF-3AE99386782B@kryoflux.com> <201111022346.TAA11215@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EB1F3A1.5040603@philpem.me.uk> On 02/11/11 23:46, Mouse wrote: >> There is nothing stopping you from using your own software with the >> board. I could say "why not use our firmware", but that would be a >> binary again and you said you don't run precompiled software. > > I do accept it for firmware under some circumstances, such as the > firmware in disk drives and the like. > > In this case, if the interface your firmware presents to the host is > documented, I very well might be willing to do exactly that. (I don't > _like_ it, especially not as compared to open-source code, but I'm not > as dogmatic and strident about it as I am when it comes to software > running on the host.) There is always the DiscFerret: http://www.discferret.com/ The entire hardware design is open source (I don't even mind people making DiscFerret boards themselves -- as long as they don't go selling them as "official" DiscFerrets). Same goes for the software -- Apache licence for the APIs, and the rest of the software (including PIC microcontroller firmware and FPGA microcode) is GPLV2 "or any later version." As for operating system support? It runs on Linux and Mac OS X natively, and work is underway to resurrect the Windows/mingw32 and Cygwin ports (which haven't been tested particularly well due to USB driver issues). There's a healthy discussion going on in #discferret on irc.freenode.net, and a mailing list for DiscFerret users and software developers (which is considerably quieter). The latter is linked from the main website (see link above). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 20:55:40 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 01:55:40 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 3 November 2011 01:02, Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/11/11 1:17 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 31 October 2011 21:31, Andrew Burton ?wrote: >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Liam Proven" >>>> >>>> Many thanks! Lots of food for further reading there. >>>> >>>> May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: >>>> >>>> * Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. >>>> * Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of >>> >>> you." >>>> >>>> * Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. >>>> >>> >>> Interesting quote comparing Common Lisp with an anime (Howls Moving >>> Castle). >>> The anime is made by one of the legendary studios within the genre >>> (Studio >>> Ghibli). So I guess it would be a great complement to the language. >>> My favourite Subaru is the Imprezza and any sports car has to be driven >>> in >>> manual gears to get the most pleasure out of driving it - just don't go >>> from >>> 5th gear to 1st, whilst at high speed!!! >> >> /Howl's Moving Castle/ is a *novel* by thr late Diana Wynne Jones: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howl%27s_Moving_Castle >> >> The book was subsequently adapted into a film by Hayao Miyazaki. >> >> The point of the quote is not the film; it's the eponymous object. In >> other words, the Scheme is small and fast and elegant but possibly a >> bit too much hard work for some people; that Emacs Lisp may not be >> pretty but it gets the job done very well; and that Common Lisp is, >> especially by comparison to the other two, impossibly large and >> complex and baroque and completely and utterly impractical. > > I think that is overstating the case. > > Again, I don't see the purpose of the metaphor; they only seem to harden > people's uninformed opinions - the kind of lazy short-circuiting ("You > mentioned Lisp, so let's make a parenthesis joke, even though I haven't ever > written any Lisp" / "Omg Haskell, that monad stuff is craziness, I'll stick > with PHP thanks" / "Oh no, I can't use Scheme for this, it's TOO SLOW") that > seems to happen far too often in this business already. > > I recently began reading Paul Graham's "On Lisp" (a comprehensive and very > approachable manual to Common Lisp macros, with a lot of good general advice > throughout*), and found that the parts of Common Lisp that I expected to > find crufty turn out to be not so bad. I see no reason to write it off as a > baroque monstrosity, yet, and certainly won't do so without taking it for a > good long country drive (as I am now trying to do with Scheme). > > --Toby > > * - Peter Norvig's Tutorial on Good Lisp Programming Style is also > indispensable for any programmer, not just Lisp programmers. > http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1098 Well, this is what I was after. Is it a remotely useful analogy, or is it ridiculous hyperbole, or is it somewhere in the middle, as in, there's a grain of truth in there somewhere. I imagine EMACS Lisp is not much use outside of the context of using and customising Emacs, for instance - is that fair? I don't use Emacs. I've learned too many text editors and when I first met Emacs it was part of an expensive OS of limited application; I mainly worked with DOS and Macs, on which it was not available. When I came back to it, 20y later, it was too late. After memorising a good couple of dozens sets of editor keystrokes and UIs over 25-30y, I settled on CUA in the early 1990s and I'm not moving again. So until Emacs not only understands Ctrl-X, C, V, Z and so on - and Alt-F, S and preferably Alt-T, W too - then no matter how myriad its other joys, I am not remapping my poor aging brain again at my age. Is there a kernel of truth in the analagy, IOW? That Scheme is very nice but not much practical use for getting stuff done; that CL is top-heavy and overcomplicated; that eLisp is all very well but only good for one thing, say? -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 2 21:09:13 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:09:13 -0400 Subject: PAL cloning In-Reply-To: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB1F7C9.9050506@verizon.net> On 11/2/2011 4:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On the subject of hardware, I'd like to pass along a link that > details my efforts to clone three PALs--the AT&T 6300 video display > card HAL10L8; the Soundblaster 2.0 upgrade PAL16L8 and the Trantor > T130B SCSI controller ROM address PAL16L8. > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL- > HAL-%28Part-1%29 > > I don't know if I'd stick with SSI TTL for the "brute forcer", but it > worked well enough. I'd probably just use a cheap microcontroller if > I were starting afresh. > > This appears to be a valid approach for pure combinatorial PALs and > HALs. Registered devices are a different matter entirely. > > --Chuck Chuck, Thanks for posting those links. Your work was very fascinating, and I've often thought about brute-forcing hardware in exactly the same way (using a uC) to derive those equations. Glad to see you helped those soundblaster guys out! I have a piece of amiga silicon (paula, 8364, nmos) which haunts me. I'd love to extract the floppy DPLL schematic out of chip and then either recode in HDL or gate-level schematic entry............ Not something similar, or something that works approximately the same way. The real thing. Yes, I've read the patents. The portion of the chip I actually want is actually a pretty small area of the die. Most of the chip is taken up by the four-channels of D->A, serial port, joystick ports, and so on. Anyways, I digress. Fantastic work and thanks for posting it. Keith From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 2 21:30:43 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 19:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paging Paul Anderson Message-ID: I've been trying to contact Paul Anderson for a couple weeks but haven't gotten a reply. Does anyone know what's up? Paul, if you're reading this, would you please contact me by private email? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 2 21:53:56 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:53:56 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB20244.7050809@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/11/11 9:55 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 November 2011 01:02, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 02/11/11 1:17 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> On 31 October 2011 21:31, Andrew Burton wrote: >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Liam Proven" >>>>> >>>>> Many thanks! Lots of food for further reading there. >>>>> >>>>> May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: >>>>> >>>>> * Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. >>>>> * Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of >>>> >>>> you." >>>>> >>>>> * Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Interesting quote comparing Common Lisp with an anime (Howls Moving >>>> Castle). >>>> The anime is made by one of the legendary studios within the genre >>>> (Studio >>>> Ghibli). So I guess it would be a great complement to the language. >>>> My favourite Subaru is the Imprezza and any sports car has to be driven >>>> in >>>> manual gears to get the most pleasure out of driving it - just don't go >>>> from >>>> 5th gear to 1st, whilst at high speed!!! >>> >>> /Howl's Moving Castle/ is a *novel* by thr late Diana Wynne Jones: >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howl%27s_Moving_Castle >>> >>> The book was subsequently adapted into a film by Hayao Miyazaki. >>> >>> The point of the quote is not the film; it's the eponymous object. In >>> other words, the Scheme is small and fast and elegant but possibly a >>> bit too much hard work for some people; that Emacs Lisp may not be >>> pretty but it gets the job done very well; and that Common Lisp is, >>> especially by comparison to the other two, impossibly large and >>> complex and baroque and completely and utterly impractical. >> >> I think that is overstating the case. >> >> Again, I don't see the purpose of the metaphor; they only seem to harden >> people's uninformed opinions - the kind of lazy short-circuiting ("You >> mentioned Lisp, so let's make a parenthesis joke, even though I haven't ever >> written any Lisp" / "Omg Haskell, that monad stuff is craziness, I'll stick >> with PHP thanks" / "Oh no, I can't use Scheme for this, it's TOO SLOW") that >> seems to happen far too often in this business already. >>... > > Well, this is what I was after. Is it a remotely useful analogy, or is > it ridiculous hyperbole, or is it somewhere in the middle, as in, > there's a grain of truth in there somewhere. > As hyperbole, it's useless; and what truth can it contain that wouldn't be better found by direct experience? > I imagine EMACS Lisp is not much use outside of the context of using > and customising Emacs, for instance - is that fair? I can only think of one way to find out... > I don't use Emacs. ... > > Is there a kernel of truth in the analagy, IOW? > > That Scheme is very nice but not much practical use for getting stuff > done; that CL is top-heavy and overcomplicated; that eLisp is all very > well but only good for one thing, say? This is the kind of rubbish you can read on Reddit or Slashdot comments any day of the week. Why not form your own opinion? --Toby From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 22:01:34 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 22:01:34 -0500 Subject: Paging Paul Anderson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, I'm here. Did I miss or lose an email? Feel free to call till midnight Chicago time (2 hours). Thanks, Paul 217-586-5361 On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:30 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I've been trying to contact Paul Anderson for a couple > weeks but haven't gotten a reply. ?Does anyone know what's up? ?Paul, if > you're reading this, would you please contact me by private email? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 2 22:50:17 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme Message-ID: Here's a variation of the pdp 11/70 with a chocolate-brown and white color scheme: http://661.org/images/csis1170.jpg -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 2 22:57:08 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:57:08 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/2/11 4:32 PM, "Kieron Wilkinson" wrote: > 3) The bit about saying that "most people don't have the knowledge to decode > flux recording" - I am not sure why we would say that - since people have > already done it using our documentation. Perhaps this refers to a conversation > on opening IPF (again, nothing to do with KryoFlux), where we said we didn't > make it a priority because we didn't think it would be very much use to most > people (but we always said it was an absolutely necessary). It's now open > anyway. I apologise for paraphasing, the tone of what I wrote was what I read into it from y'alls FAQ... - "Preserving software is not a one-click process although the Analyser has advanced features built in that help working on a disk very fast. Nevertheless, in the hands of an untrained person, the analyser will not be of much use." - What is the use of providing software, hardware and a -supposedly- open disk image format when one cannot apparently create that disk image format (presuming it was designed to be a universal image archive format) with the supplied software? If it will be added later, that is great. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 2 23:28:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 00:28:46 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB2187E.1040800@neurotica.com> On 11/02/2011 09:55 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > I imagine EMACS Lisp is not much use outside of the context of using > and customising Emacs, for instance - is that fair? I don't use Emacs. > I've learned too many text editors and when I first met Emacs it was > part of an expensive OS of limited application; I mainly worked with > DOS and Macs, on which it was not available. There have been many Emacsen available for DOS since its very early days. Some free, some commercial, most very good. Just FYI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 00:59:09 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 00:59:09 -0500 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: kool find On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Here's a variation of the pdp 11/70 with a chocolate-brown and white color > scheme: http://661.org/images/**csis1170.jpg > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 15:15:59 2011 From: kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:15:59 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB Message-ID: Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm pleased to see the project opening up (release of library source, > etc). I was a bit uncomfortable with what I perceived to be a proprietary > approach earlier on. We got there eventually at least. :) > What would really be the clincher for me is the ability to take a sector > image of the various machines, e.g. an Apple ProDOS or DOS 3.3 "*.po" > image and write it to a diskette. I get the impression that it currently > has the ability to read flux transitions and extract such sector images, > but nothing mentions the capability of re-creating a track image and > writing them out to media. That is not currently supported, no. We decided to do the hardest part first, writing IPF files, and doing it really well. As stated on our forums, other files, such as sector images, will come later. We are doing some C64-related work at the moment, but the plan is to support sector images for writing next. It almost goes without saying that, if it's sector images somebody needs for writing, then wait for that before getting a device. > I have an interest in archiving, but I'm also an avid tinkerer with old > hardware and often need to generate "real" diskettes from a sector image. Yes, absolutely. This is definitely a missing piece right now. I hope that helps clarify things. Kieron From kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 15:25:25 2011 From: kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:25:25 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB Message-ID: Steven Hirsch wrote: >> From their FAQ. > > (snip) > > Thanks for pointing that out. They are welcome to use whatever > business/IP model they wish, but this one bothers me enough that I would > avoid the device. That section of the FAQ is not actually completely relevant in this case. It refers to producing IPFs. If you want to write sector images, then there is of course no real need to create IPFs anyway in this case I guess. Our IPF creation software is a commercial product, and helps fund our preservation activity. Now that the IPF library has been open source, there isn't anything stopping somebody creating something similar of course, so that FAQ is out of date too. Kieron From kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 15:47:05 2011 From: kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:47:05 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB Message-ID: Al Kossow wrote: > And what prevents them from "archiving" anything you send them? I'm not really sure what you mean by that. People send us stuff to archive. Sure, there is not much point sending SPS stuff if it's not in scope for the project because that project is only concerned with preservation of unmodified and undamaged commercial software. Our commercial venture KryoFlux does provide a service to help people generate IPFs. That is something else entirely and completely independent from SPS (other than the same people are involved, and it uses technology developed for SPS). That is a professional service as you would expect, any data generated is destroyed as per an agreed contract. Nothing stops anyone "archiving" other people's data. Most people don't do it because it is unethical - I am not sure why you might think it would be different for us? > My feelings exactly. I can't imagine any professional archive taking this group seriously, and it is > completely opposite of CHM's policy of preserving and making available any information on underlying > media formats that we find. I'd be interested to understand why you think this. What are we doing wrong? Is it wrong to want to fund our preservation work by starting a commercial venture? What are we not making available? We've released the IPF library source, including an extremely accurate, cycle exact FDC emulator. We also have tons and tons of information on the SPS website about how things work (WIPs). IPF files contain the information about each disk formats, and now that is open, I am not really sure what else we can do? I am genuinely interested, because we do want to do the right thing (even if it might take us a while). Thanks, Kieron From kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 16:02:09 2011 From: kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:02:09 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB Message-ID: Mouse wrote: > I sent them mail saying "I would want documentatino on how to talk to > the hardware, because your GUI will not be suitable for me" (any UI > that's suitable to most of pretty much any market has an excellent > chance of being somewhere between unpleasant and unsable for me). Well, since I wrote the user interface for KryoFlux, I'd be very interested in what would work for you, even if you don't intend to use whatever changes we might make. The GUI was designed to be extremely easy to use, even for non-technical people such as those in libraries and archives. There are advanced features, but they are mostly hidden unless specifically wanted. I think it turned out pretty well, if I do say so myself. Some examples: http://www.softpres.org/kryoflux:ui:stream-plot http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=262 As it happens, even though I wrote the graphical user interface, I didn't need to know anything about how to talk to the hardware. The GUI just uses the existing software supplied. Anyone could have done it really. > Document it enough I can write my own software to drive it, and I might > be interested in the hardware. I will not be interested in > undocumented hardware and, as mentioned above, I will not be interested > in the software (unless it's open sourced, and then only insofar as it > forms documentation on how to talk to the hardware). That is fair enough. If it is not suitable for you, it's just not. We do have the stream file/protocol documented, which is the main complicated part: http://www.softpres.org/kryoflux:stream It would be nice to document completely as you want, but we have very limited resources, and unless there is much demand for something, we would find it hard to prioritise it. I think you might agree that your requirement is a little unusual... :) Kieron From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 2 17:31:43 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 15:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: embedded processors... In-Reply-To: <54B9440CEB574B079D82C90BC4A8AAD0@gryphon> Message-ID: <1320273103.62662.YahooMailClassic@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 10/26/11, greid57 at o2.co.uk wrote: and she threatened to > insert it in him > >rectally.? > > (Raises hand) - so would this be an embedded processor? > > Graham LOL LOL LOL LOL. And a highly integrated one at that! An integral part of certain I/O streams! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL From doug at doughq.com Wed Nov 2 17:57:29 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 09:57:29 +1100 Subject: Vacuum 'leaking out' In-Reply-To: <20111101153227.M4247@shell.lmi.net> References: <20111101144353.U4247@shell.lmi.net> <20111101153227.M4247@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Years ago (In the days of HeNe lasers), I was working in a physics workshop. We had a HeNe tube that was more of e neon tube - the Heluim had migrated out of the tube. On fellow got an idea to shroud the tube in a container full of He gas under perssure to rectify the problem... Sadly it didn't work. Iw ould be interesting to understand the actual physics of the problem, and calculate the pressure / time to allow the migration to happen the other way. I suspect it is a big number. Doug On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Not quite the same as when the dark leaks out of your darkroom. > > On Tue, 1 Nov 2011, John Many Jars wrote: > > I've had the smoke leak out of things. That was usually bad. > > But unlike either of these, nor shortage of computrons, vacuum can be > partially refilled. If you take the device that has had its vacuum leak > out, and put it in a large container, and pump that container full of LOTS > of vacuum, some of the vacuum will leak back into the device! > Unfortunately, that technique does not seem to work with dark, computrons, > nor magic smoke (the smoke may go in, but loses its magic properties). > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From lists at softpres.org Thu Nov 3 02:33:46 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 07:33:46 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 Nov 2011, at 03:57, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > "Preserving software is not a one-click process although the Analyser has > advanced features built in that help working on a disk very fast. > Nevertheless, in the hands of an untrained person, the analyser will not be > of much use." > > - > > What is the use of providing software, hardware and a -supposedly- open disk > image format when one cannot apparently create that disk image format > (presuming it was designed to be a universal image archive format) with the > supplied software? If it will be added later, that is great. Ah. Okay, this is mainly down to a misunderstanding, though I freely admit that is likely our fault. The analyser being talked about here is not part of the personal edition of KryoFlux. It is a tool that we at SPS developed to help with our preservation work. The only way it really relates to KryoFlux is that it is offered as part of a product offered to entities (by KryoFlux the company) such as large libraries and archives. It does allow production of IPF files - but this format is SPS related and KryoFlux does not produce these. However, we did recently add support to KryoFlux to write them. "The analyser" currently helps fund our preservation work more than the personal edition of KryoFlux does. KryoFlux contains it's own "analyser", which does all the flux transition decoding and format conversion, and the GUI visualises that data. KryoFlux currently produces (other than sector images) "stream files", which is raw flux transition data. This is format KryoFlux users will be interested in for capture and storage. This is what KryoFlux produces, and there are now even independent decoders available. Why two formats? They are used for very different things. Once is a raw flux transition transfer and storage file used for KryoFlux, the other is a post-processed file format for describing disk formats (incl. copy protection) used by SPS. It's confusing, but I hope that clears things up... Kieron P.S. Sorry for the double-postings! The recent ones I posted yesterday from an email account that was not subscribed (at the time I posted) to the list. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 3 02:41:31 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 08:41:31 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 08:50:17PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > > Here's a variation of the pdp 11/70 with a chocolate-brown and white > color scheme: http://661.org/images/csis1170.jpg Neat. That goes into the folder of wierd front panel versions (I have collected a few) I guess this one has been fighting crime :D /Pontus. From lists at softpres.org Thu Nov 3 02:46:40 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 07:46:40 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB1EC24.1090705@verizon.net> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2075114217.719983.1320269086162.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> <4EB1EC24.1090705@verizon.net> Message-ID: <071A96C4-2FF0-47C2-B5C2-AFD0ABF6DCA0@softpres.org> On 3 Nov 2011, at 01:19, Keith Monahan wrote: > I find it interesting what different (fairly independently developed) > designs have in common for this type of job of reading floppies. ie, How > did other smarter-than-me people accomplish the same task? Was my > solution better or worse? No idea. We developed KryoFlux because we had very specific needs, in a device we could offer cheaply and produced in quantity. Somebody else proved what we wanted could be done (Richard Alpin of Cyclone fame) but got way laid by real life, and so we ran with our own version based on his ideas (same basic hardware, different software). > My blog is at http://techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog/ which is ATM being > reworked(but completely online and available), again. I'm starting to > add some generic FPGA notes, examples, etc. I was aware of your blog. Good work. I think we have had this conversation before actually... > When I saw your links above, they reminded me of my analysis of my amiga > floppy data on my posts here > > http://techtravels.org/?p=362 > > and > > http://techtravels.org/?p=263 > > These are obviously generated outside of my client software, but could > be integrated with a little work. Our visualisations were mainly based on ideas from "Mr. Floppy" - the GUI for the Cyclone20 project. I think there are YouTube videos of that flying about, and early versions has a histogram and scatter plot as the current KryoFlux UI does. They were also taken from the SPS analyser. I do remember your scatter plot, so perhaps it also had had some influence. If so, thanks :-) > Your screen shots look pretty sweet. Thanks! Kieron From lists at softpres.org Thu Nov 3 03:03:49 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 08:03:49 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111030046.UAA11865@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2075114217.719983.1320269086162.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> <201111030046.UAA11865@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <734CCC50-FF32-4803-AAA7-8B2CB3C78AE8@softpres.org> On 3 Nov 2011, at 00:46, Mouse wrote: > Well, the first thing is that (a) it must be possible to get it out of > reverse video and (b) it must be usable in that mode. Large areas of > bright on the screen are not something I can get along with. ((b) I have the same problem I think. Can't stand black on white. It hurts by eyes. > seems self-evident, but there are a depressing number of interfaces > that satisfy (a) but end up breaking somehow when that's done, > typically by displaying important things black-on-black or some > operational equivalent such as very-dark-blue-on-black.) No, we don't have reverse video, but it is not black on white for the most part. Thanks for the idea though, I'll make a note of that. > The next most important thing (in your case, see my next paragraph) is > that the GUI must not be the only way to do things. GUIs are pretty > much useless as components and mostly demand a user to drive them. > This makes it impossible to, for example, script operation with input > and/or output redirected. Absolutely. We also offer a command line tool that can be used for this. As it happens, we recently added preliminary support for scripting of the GUI so you can get the best of both worlds. > You write that the GUI "just uses the existing software supplied", so > this is mostly a non-issue in your case, at least provided that > existing software is documented (which I wish I could assume it is but > have far too often run into cases where it isn't; what you've said > elsewhere makes me think this isn't an issue in your case either). Yes, I don't think I used any non-public info. It's all in the manual that comes with the product, and testing against it of course. The flux transition plots could be produced from the stream format document (well, actually, the stream format document was created while implementing support for them in the GUI). > Third is that it must not force me to bounce back and forth between the > mouse and the keyboard. I can deal with - indeed, I've written - > interfaces that are entirely, or almost entirely, mouse-driven. Ditto > keyboard-driven. But interfaces apparently written under either the > assumption that I have a third hand for the mouse or the assumption > that I type with only one hand kill whatever productivity I might > otherwise have had under them. The most recent version is mostly fine in this regard. I use it mainly via keyboard when developing. I'm sure there can be improvements though - for example, I am not sure the configuration screens are easily navigatable by keyboard (although I am sure it works). >> The GUI was designed to be extremely easy to use, even for >> non-technical people such as those in libraries and archives. > > This may be an issue. Easy to use for novices usually means crippling > for experts. (Usually. I'm sure there are exceptions; indeed, I think > I've seen a few, though I can't think of any offhand.) Again, perhaps > it's just me, but, historically speaking, I usually find it takes > fairly little time for me to become expert enough to be frustrated by > "you don't need to know that" (or, more accurately, "we don't think you > should want to know that") interfaces. Well, that depends on what you need to know. We try to put the complexity out of sight rather than hiding it. There are a few minor features missing though, that is true. I'm not sure if there is anything we "hide" - we show pretty much everything that the command line version shows - just in a different way. I am (partly) a user interface developer professionally, so simple UI's is important to my sense of well being :) >> It would be nice to document it completely as you want, but we have >> very limited resources, and unless there is much demand for >> something, we would find it hard to prioritise it. I think you might >> agree that your requirement is a little unusual... :) > > Oh, certainly. I'm not under any delusion that my ideal system is > likely to be forthcoming anytime soon! I think this initially refered to the firmware protocol being documented. We should certainly do that, again factoring in our priorities. However, your suggestions are very useful, and we could improve in some of these areas. > But, you did ask. :) Yes, and thank you for taking the time to explain! Kieron From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 3 04:00:30 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 02:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 08:50:17PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Here's a variation of the pdp 11/70 with a chocolate-brown and white >> color scheme: http://661.org/images/csis1170.jpg > > Neat. That goes into the folder of wierd front panel versions (I have collected > a few) URL? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 3 04:42:59 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:42:59 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 02:00:30AM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 08:50:17PM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > >> > >>Here's a variation of the pdp 11/70 with a chocolate-brown and white > >>color scheme: http://661.org/images/csis1170.jpg > > > >Neat. That goes into the folder of wierd front panel versions (I have collected > >a few) > > URL? My hard drive at home :) Luckily my backup-server was online. Here is what i got: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/ I've nicked these from various web pages, so if anyone wants me to remove something, just let me know. The blue PDP-8/m is my favourite. Imagine that in a desktop stand: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102630599 /P From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 05:49:08 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 06:49:08 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 2, 2011, at 9:55 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Is there a kernel of truth in the analagy, IOW? > > That Scheme is very nice but not much practical use for getting stuff > done; that CL is top-heavy and overcomplicated; that eLisp is all very > well but only good for one thing, say? Well, I'm sure that there are kernels of truth everywhere, but I'd like to at least point out that Scheme, being very small and simple, is easily embeddable as a scripting language. As with most scripting languages (Lua comes to mind), you often make a trade-off between execution time and code size; TinyScheme, for example, may not be the fastest thing out there, but it compiles down to a few K (maybe tens of K, I don't quite recall), which is great if you're running on embedded devices. It sees quite a bit of real-world use in that aspect. - Dave From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Nov 3 05:57:48 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:57:48 +0000 Subject: Recommend an IRC server In-Reply-To: <0CCE2B36-D55A-4CE4-91C8-8504DD581C69@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <201111031057.pA3Asqpv005093@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> From: Daniel Seagraves > I run an Unreal ircd for a friend, it doesn't suck up too much. If you > don't need services it should be pretty straightforward. I prefer to avoid GPL-anything but it's not always possible. I'll look into this one a bit. Thank you. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 06:29:49 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 07:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB1F3A1.5040603@philpem.me.uk> References: <8089D87B-DA34-4BB8-BAFF-3AE99386782B@kryoflux.com> <201111022346.TAA11215@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB1F3A1.5040603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 02/11/11 23:46, Mouse wrote: >>> There is nothing stopping you from using your own software with the >>> board. I could say "why not use our firmware", but that would be a >>> binary again and you said you don't run precompiled software. >> >> I do accept it for firmware under some circumstances, such as the >> firmware in disk drives and the like. >> >> In this case, if the interface your firmware presents to the host is >> documented, I very well might be willing to do exactly that. (I don't >> _like_ it, especially not as compared to open-source code, but I'm not >> as dogmatic and strident about it as I am when it comes to software >> running on the host.) > > There is always the DiscFerret: http://www.discferret.com/ > > The entire hardware design is open source (I don't even mind people making > DiscFerret boards themselves -- as long as they don't go selling them as > "official" DiscFerrets). Same goes for the software -- Apache licence for the > APIs, and the rest of the software (including PIC microcontroller firmware > and FPGA microcode) is GPLV2 "or any later version." > > As for operating system support? It runs on Linux and Mac OS X natively, and > work is underway to resurrect the Windows/mingw32 and Cygwin ports (which > haven't been tested particularly well due to USB driver issues). > > There's a healthy discussion going on in #discferret on irc.freenode.net, and > a mailing list for DiscFerret users and software developers (which is > considerably quieter). The latter is linked from the main website (see link > above). Has anyone developed support that can pull sector images from discferret yet? I was hoping to find time to work on this, but LIFE(tm) has gotten in the way. I haven't honestly had much of a chance to hack on it :-(. Last I knew, it was capable only of pulling a flux-transition stream and analyzing statistics on it. Steve -- From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 07:40:07 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 08:40:07 -0400 Subject: Recommend an IRC server In-Reply-To: <201111031057.pA3Asqpv005093@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> References: <0CCE2B36-D55A-4CE4-91C8-8504DD581C69@lunar-tokyo.net>, <201111031057.pA3Asqpv005093@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Unreal is crap. :) check out InspIRCd though I used to use UltimateIRC > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:57:48 +0000 > From: vintagecoder at aol.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Recommend an IRC server > > From: Daniel Seagraves > > > I run an Unreal ircd for a friend, it doesn't suck up too much. If you > > don't need services it should be pretty straightforward. > > I prefer to avoid GPL-anything but it's not always possible. I'll look into > this one a bit. > > Thank you. > > > > > From jonas at otter.se Thu Nov 3 03:59:21 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:59:21 +0100 Subject: Vacuum 'leaking out' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66494ba5e865d56e631a186d0b333be7@otter.se> On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:53:59 +0000 (GMT), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > You all know what I meant by the vacuum 'leaking out' of a CRT, right > :-). Perhaps this analogy will help to explain why I said it. > Of course, it was perfectly obvious, although rather a nice way of putting it I thought. The analogy that immediately came to my mind was that of holes in a semiconductor constituting a current of positive charges. I suppose one could also say that debt leaks into my bank account and is removed when my salary gets paid. All the while leaving a negative, reducing charge of debt in the account. /Jonas From tor at spacetec.no Thu Nov 3 04:01:15 2011 From: tor at spacetec.no (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:01:15 +0100 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111030046.UAA11865@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2075114217.719983.1320269086162.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> <201111030046.UAA11865@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 01:46, Mouse wrote: The next most important thing (in your case, see my next paragraph) is > that the GUI must not be the only way to do things. ?GUIs are pretty > much useless as components and mostly demand a user to drive them. > This makes it impossible to, for example, script operation with input > and/or output redirected. The command line client should work for scripting just fine - are there some features in the GUI that you need that are missing in the client (the "dtc" tool)? It covers all my needs at least, except when I want to look at pretty pictures. -Tor From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 3 06:16:03 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:16:03 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Tue, 2011-11-01 at 17:15 -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Northstar hard-sector > Amiga 5.25 and 3.5 > C64 (GCR) > Apple 2 and 3 (GCR) > Intel MDS system (M2FM) > ... > > etc. > > I have technical means for all of the above now, but they are inconvenient > and/or require dragging out and setting up something particular to that > one operation. "One stop" shopping would be great. > > If the unit is capable of doing this, please advise? There's development code to do this with the DiscFerret. I've been holding off on releasing it because I wanted to do a "universal" (script based) version... at this point I'm tempted to abandon that and go with the C/C++ "recompile to add a new format" version. I do have a Northstar MFM codec, and a preliminary Layer 1 codec for Amiga discs (physical-layer en/dec only, no sector splitting or ADF writing). -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Nov 3 07:59:31 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:59:31 +0000 Subject: Recommend an IRC server Message-ID: <1912925365-1320325172-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2033906928-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Thanks, I'll look at those. ------Original Message------ From: Dan Gahlinger Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Recommend an IRC server Sent: 3 Nov 2011 12:40 Unreal is crap. :) check out InspIRCd though I used to use UltimateIRC > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:57:48 +0000 > From: vintagecoder at aol.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Recommend an IRC server > > From: Daniel Seagraves > > > I run an Unreal ircd for a friend, it doesn't suck up too much. If you > > don't need services it should be pretty straightforward. > > I prefer to avoid GPL-anything but it's not always possible. I'll look into > this one a bit. > > Thank you. > > > > > From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 08:30:00 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:30:00 +0000 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > My hard drive at home :) Luckily my backup-server was online. Here is what i got: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/ > > I've nicked these from various web pages, so if anyone wants me to remove > something, just let me know. > > The blue PDP-8/m is my favourite. Imagine that in a desktop stand: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102630599 I really like the lime green colour-co-ordinated model PDP-12 you guys have at Update: http://www.update.uu.se/admin/PDP-12-Update-Uppsala-liten.jpeg Really stylish, very 1960s/70s... does that one come with free sun glasses? :) -- Mark Benson http://www.DECtec.info From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 3 08:30:39 2011 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 09:30:39 -0400 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? Message-ID: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Had a IIe, a gs, and several Mac SEs and SE 30s take missing this past weekend, along with some empty filing cabinets and a pedestal for a TI DS-10 drive. DS-50 disappeared a while back. Anyone else having a problem? jbdigriz From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 08:55:29 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 06:55:29 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com>, , <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi Why do the decoding in something that requires compiling. For decoding an interpreted language would be better and offer the end user an easier way to customize for some offbeat format. Although, I'm not a fan of BASIC, it is a resonable choice here. I'd much rather it was in Forth but I realize that many don't get it. Even LISP is an option. Regardless, it is the comments that are the most important. Decoding doesn't have to be done at the speed of light, it doesn't require highly optimized code either. It is better done with simple well documented code that can be applied to most any language that the user might choose. Dwight > From: philpem at philpem.me.uk > > On Tue, 2011-11-01 at 17:15 -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > Northstar hard-sector > > Amiga 5.25 and 3.5 > > C64 (GCR) > > Apple 2 and 3 (GCR) > > Intel MDS system (M2FM) > > ... > > > > etc. > > > > I have technical means for all of the above now, but they are inconvenient > > and/or require dragging out and setting up something particular to that > > one operation. "One stop" shopping would be great. > > > > If the unit is capable of doing this, please advise? > > There's development code to do this with the DiscFerret. I've been > holding off on releasing it because I wanted to do a "universal" (script > based) version... at this point I'm tempted to abandon that and go with > the C/C++ "recompile to add a new format" version. > > I do have a Northstar MFM codec, and a preliminary Layer 1 codec for > Amiga discs (physical-layer en/dec only, no sector splitting or ADF > writing). > > -- > Phil. > philpem at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 08:57:52 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:57:52 +0000 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: Very likely scrap peddlers. We are having big problems with people stealing lead off roofs, plumbing from empty houses and even metal fences in the UK. Price of metals is very high so scrap value is also good. They probably think they have gold in them that they can profit from. Little do they realise the boards in SEs and SE/30s don't have any IIRC ;) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Nov 3 09:22:01 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:22:01 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme Message-ID: > Here's a variation of the pdp 11/70 with a chocolate-brown and white color > scheme: http://661.org/images/csis1170.jpg CSI was a computer typesetting company. Pretty much cradle-to-grave in terms of end user support. "Composition Systems Incorporated" I think. There was at least one other company that specialized in typesetting for classified ads that used PDP-11's for typesetting. Their name is not coming to mind at the moment but they were surprisingly common at metropolitan newspapers. I remember them using the 3270-like capabilities of VT-oh-something terminals. Tim. From vrs at msn.com Thu Nov 3 09:30:50 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 07:30:50 -0700 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > My hard drive at home :) Luckily my backup-server was online. Here is what i > got: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/ Hey, there's one of mine on there! I didn't own the UCC 8/L when that photo was taken, but I have owned it for a few years now. Last time I checked, it worked, at least most of the time :-). I've wondered what was up with the hodge-podge of switch colors. That thing has somehow ended up with nearly every shade I've ever seen on an 8, except the blue and green of the industrial stuff, and the white of the 8/S and straight 8. Even the brown of the 8/S and straight-8 is in there! Vince From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 3 09:49:07 2011 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:49:07 -0400 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20111103104907.61572bb0@crucible.dragonsweb.org> On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:57:52 +0000 Mark Benson wrote: > Very likely scrap peddlers. We are having big problems with people > stealing lead off roofs, plumbing from empty houses and even metal > fences in the UK. Price of metals is very high so scrap value is also > good. > Tell me about it. I do some work for a property management co. that's had appliances, wiring, plumbing, A/C units, condensers, compressors, etc. disappear from units. Pretty discouraging sometimes. I like to visit the local scrapyards. Some pretty amazing stuff out there sometimes. And it makes you ponder weighty subjects like the future of civilization and junk. Sometimes you get some pretty keen insights into the way things work, too. But I digress... > They probably think they have gold in them that they can profit from. > Little do they realise the boards in SEs and SE/30s don't have any > IIRC ;) > They do have copper, though, for sure. Other valuable metals too. Still only economical to recover safely with some significant investment. There are more places buying scrap boards now, though. -- From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 3 09:52:32 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:52:32 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20111103145232.GB5336@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 07:30:50AM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > >My hard drive at home :) Luckily my backup-server was online. Here > >is what i got: > > > >http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/ > > Hey, there's one of mine on there! > > I didn't own the UCC 8/L when that photo was taken, but I have owned it for > a few years now. Last time I checked, it worked, at least most of the time :-). I'm a bit jealous, the 8/l is neat and oddballs are always fun. > I've wondered what was up with the hodge-podge of switch colors. That thing > has somehow ended up with nearly every shade I've ever seen on an 8, except > the blue and green of the industrial stuff, and the white of the 8/S > and straight 8. > Even the brown of the 8/S and straight-8 is in there! Well they break easily, I'm guessing your l had some friends give up their parts. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 3 09:53:54 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:53:54 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20111103145354.GC5336@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 01:30:00PM +0000, Mark Benson wrote: > > I really like the lime green colour-co-ordinated model PDP-12 you guys > have at Update: > > http://www.update.uu.se/admin/PDP-12-Update-Uppsala-liten.jpeg > > Really stylish, very 1960s/70s... does that one come with free sun glasses? :) It is lovely isn't it :) We are currently brining it back to life. The PSU is bad and some boards have gone sour as well. Cheers, Pontus. From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 10:02:59 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:02:59 +0000 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: <20111103104907.61572bb0@crucible.dragonsweb.org> References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <20111103104907.61572bb0@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 2:49 PM, James B. DiGriz wrote: > ?They do have copper, though, for sure. Other valuable metals too. > ?Still only economical to recover safely with some significant > ?investment. There are more places buying scrap boards now, though. Copper, heavy metals, steels chassis, yes there's plenty to claim, I was just poking a bit of fun :) It seems very sad. I keep my most precious vintage machines in the house with me these days, or in a warm, locked alarmed self storage unit near where I work. With luck they will be safe in those places. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 10:07:08 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 11:07:08 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > The blue PDP-8/m is my favourite. Imagine that in a desktop stand: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102630599 That's a slick stand. I don't have an -8/M, but if I did, that would be really neat to have sitting next to a VT52. I wasn't able to find any other pictures of it. Has anyone here seen the desktop tilt housing up close? -ethan From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 3 10:18:22 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:18:22 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103145354.GC5336@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103145354.GC5336@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4848a83c6a2e9fd630e014ed91055a4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 01:30:00PM +0000, Mark Benson wrote: >> >> I really like the lime green colour-co-ordinated model PDP-12 you guys >> have at Update: >> >> http://www.update.uu.se/admin/PDP-12-Update-Uppsala-liten.jpeg >> >> Really stylish, very 1960s/70s... does that one come with free sun >> glasses? :) > > It is lovely isn't it :) We are currently brining it back to life. The PSU > is > bad and some boards have gone sour as well. > What kind of boards went sour? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 3 10:40:54 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:40:54 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 11:07:08AM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > The blue PDP-8/m is my favourite. Imagine that in a desktop stand: > > > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102630599 > > That's a slick stand. I don't have an -8/M, but if I did, that would > be really neat to have sitting next to a VT52. > > I wasn't able to find any other pictures of it. Has anyone here seen > the desktop tilt housing up close? It's a promotional picture, I'm guessing this is just like the 8/I pedistal, a one-off that never sold. http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-2.jpg I'm hoping to be proven wrong though :) /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 10:47:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:47:16 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4EB2B784.5050308@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 09:30 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > I really like the lime green colour-co-ordinated model PDP-12 you guys > have at Update: > > http://www.update.uu.se/admin/PDP-12-Update-Uppsala-liten.jpeg > > Really stylish, very 1960s/70s... does that one come with free sun glasses? :) I have a rack top header panel from a PDP-12 in that color scheme. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 10:49:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:49:12 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4EB2B7F8.3070001@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 11:07 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> The blue PDP-8/m is my favourite. Imagine that in a desktop stand: >> >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102630599 > > That's a slick stand. I don't have an -8/M, but if I did, that would > be really neat to have sitting next to a VT52. Ohhhh yes! > I wasn't able to find any other pictures of it. Has anyone here seen > the desktop tilt housing up close? Heck, I've been a PDP-8 guy since I was in my teens, and I didn't even know of the *existence* of that stand. I guess they didn't sell many of them, which is a shame because it looks really nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 10:53:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:53:36 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 11:40 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > It's a promotional picture, I'm guessing this is just like the 8/I pedistal, a > one-off that never sold. > > http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-2.jpg Beautiful! -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 11:17:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:17:14 -0400 Subject: PAL cloning In-Reply-To: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB2BE8A.5010800@neurotica.com> On 11/02/2011 04:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On the subject of hardware, I'd like to pass along a link that > details my efforts to clone three PALs--the AT&T 6300 video display > card HAL10L8; the Soundblaster 2.0 upgrade PAL16L8 and the Trantor > T130B SCSI controller ROM address PAL16L8. > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL- > HAL-%28Part-1%29 Nice touch backdropping your board with the BYTE "programmable hardware" issue. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 11:19:25 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:19:25 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EB2187E.1040800@neurotica.com> References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB2187E.1040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 3 November 2011 04:28, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/02/2011 09:55 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> I imagine EMACS Lisp is not much use outside of the context of using >> and customising Emacs, for instance - is that fair? I don't use Emacs. >> I've learned too many text editors and when I first met Emacs it was >> part of an expensive OS of limited application; I mainly worked with >> DOS and Macs, on which it was not available. > > ?There have been many Emacsen available for DOS since its very early days. > ?Some free, some commercial, most very good. ?Just FYI. Fair point, but in support work, which is what I mainly do, you pretty much have to use whatever tools are already there on your customers' machines. You can't install your own all the time - partly for licencing reasons, partly for time reasons, partly because on a partly-screwed-up machine that might make things worse. As such, I have always focussed on learning to make the best use of the standard tools on various OSs that I support, rather than on customising them to suit myself. It's no help if my /own/ box is /just so/, just the way I like it - I earn my living setting up and fixing other people's boxes. Mind, for 15y I did carry around a small but slowly-growing library of write-protected disks which contained a whole assortment of tools for me to use - from Norton to anti-virus scanners to various handy little extra tools. Eventually it became a library of CDs, then a USB stick, and now, even that is rarely used - I pull down what I think they need from the Web. (Ninite.com is a wonderful time-saver in this regard.) As for editors, when MS-DOS 5.0 came out, I was able to junk Edlin and go to EDIT.EXE - and I really /really/ liked it. It is still one of my very favourite text editors to this day. Never found a Linux editor quite as good, although SETedit came very close - but it is no longer maintained and doesn't run on modern distros. This makes me very sad. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 11:23:32 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:23:32 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 3 November 2011 10:49, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 2, 2011, at 9:55 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Is there a kernel of truth in the analagy, IOW? >> >> That Scheme is very nice but not much practical use for getting stuff >> done; that CL is top-heavy and overcomplicated; that eLisp is all very >> well but only good for one thing, say? > > Well, I'm sure that there are kernels of truth everywhere, but I'd like to at least point out that Scheme, being very small and simple, is easily embeddable as a scripting language. ?As with most scripting languages (Lua comes to mind), you often make a trade-off between execution time and code size; TinyScheme, for example, may not be the fastest thing out there, but it compiles down to a few K (maybe tens of K, I don't quite recall), which is great if you're running on embedded devices. ?It sees quite a bit of real-world use in that aspect. Interesting. Thanks for that! Given that the biggest app I've ever written was a BASIC Mandelbrot generator for the Archimedes, of no application to me, but worth knowing! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 11:31:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:31:29 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4EB2C1E1.3000504@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 07:16 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > There's development code to do this with the DiscFerret. I've been > holding off on releasing it because I wanted to do a "universal" (script > based) version... at this point I'm tempted to abandon that and go with > the C/C++ "recompile to add a new format" version. Sounds like a perfect application for loadable modules. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Nov 3 11:32:12 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:32:12 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy Message-ID: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> The editor/IDE that comes with FreePascal that Gene B pointed me to has a very MSDOS/TurboPascal look and feel. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 11:36:36 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:36:36 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/03/2011 11:40 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >> It's a promotional picture, I'm guessing this is just like the 8/I >> pedistal, a >> one-off that never sold. Perhaps it was. A shame if so. >> http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-2.jpg > > ?Beautiful! I've seen that photo before - also very nice. I don't relish the idea of trying to fabricate an -8/I backplane from modules (to fabricate a pedestal-mounted -8/I), but one could semi-easily cobble up an ad-hoc -8/M from an Omnibus backplane and -8/M frontpanel board/plexi and make a table-top rack-mount enclosure with modern tools. I already have an SBC6120+FP6120 in a hand-made picture frame so I can have the small-form-factor gee-whiz experience right now, but there's still a lot of appeal in a desktop PDP-8 from original parts. If I were any good at steel fabrication, I have access to the tools to make something like that case. Perhaps it would be feasible from aluminum with T-slot extrusions and cut panels. That's well within my skillset. -ethan From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 3 11:37:09 2011 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:37:09 -0400 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <20111103104907.61572bb0@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20111103123709.7a305bdb@crucible.dragonsweb.org> On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:02:59 +0000 Mark Benson wrote: > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 2:49 PM, James B. DiGriz > wrote: > > > ?They do have copper, though, for sure. Other valuable metals too. > > ?Still only economical to recover safely with some significant > > ?investment. There are more places buying scrap boards now, though. > > Copper, heavy metals, steels chassis, yes there's plenty to claim, I > was just poking a bit of fun :) I got that ;-), but it's still a valid consideration. > > It seems very sad. I keep my most precious vintage machines in the > house with me these days, or in a warm, locked alarmed self storage > unit near where I work. With luck they will be safe in those places. > Like to run them, not store them. My latest acquisition is a barely marginally topical Dell Poweredge 4400 from 1999. It will save on running the heater this winter, though. -- From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 11:56:29 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:56:29 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: On 3 November 2011 16:32, Vintage Coder wrote: > The editor/IDE that comes with FreePascal that Gene B pointed me to has a very MSDOS/TurboPascal look and feel. > Yes, I vaguely remember that. MICROS~1's "Quick" language products had a very similar one, too - including QBASIC, which was actually the basis of the original MS-DOS full-screen editor. The TurboVision look & feel is the basis of SETedit. Not sure if the Linux version was reverse-engineered or what. http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 3 11:56:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:56:35 -0700 Subject: PAL cloning In-Reply-To: <4EB2BE8A.5010800@neurotica.com> References: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB2BE8A.5010800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB26553.25201.2F3AC2@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2011 at 12:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > Nice touch backdropping your board with the BYTE "programmable > hardware" issue. ;) You get the "sharp eye" award! I was wondering if anyone would pick that up. I'd thought about using an old Lattice databook instead, but I spotted the BYTE on my shelf and that was that. I do so like the old Robert Tinney covers... --Chuck From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Nov 3 12:00:02 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:00:02 -0500 Subject: UCC 8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:53:47 -0500, you wrote: >> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/ > >Hey, there's one of mine on there! > >I didn't own the UCC 8/L when that photo was taken, but I have owned it for >a few years now. Last time I checked, it worked, at least most of the time :-). Not only is that Vince's PDP-8/L, it is the very same one I sold to him (and it did "work when last turned on") :) ... and that is my picture (which I took with my Sony Mavica digital camera back in 2003!) You can see my Tek 190A signal generator and other odds and ends, sitting on the workbench my dad built for me in 1977. You're welcome to use the pic, of course :) -Charles From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Nov 3 12:12:16 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 17:12:16 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <1353766290-1320340340-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-795941091-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> I have some copies of DRDOS around somewhere, and one of them also has a similar looking editor. I guess whoever was first set the standard, most of the ones I've seen are more or less similar in function and appearance. I was just surprised (and very amused) to see how well the FreePascal guys recreated the old look and feel on UNIX-like OS. Feels like you're really there. -----Original Message----- From: Liam Proven Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:56:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: John McCarthy On 3 November 2011 16:32, Vintage Coder wrote: > The editor/IDE that comes with FreePascal that Gene B pointed me to has a very MSDOS/TurboPascal look and feel. > Yes, I vaguely remember that. MICROS~1's "Quick" language products had a very similar one, too - including QBASIC, which was actually the basis of the original MS-DOS full-screen editor. The TurboVision look & feel is the basis of SETedit. Not sure if the Linux version was reverse-engineered or what. http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 12:15:31 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:15:31 -0400 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > They probably think they have gold in them that they can profit from. > Little do they realise the boards in SEs and SE/30s don't have any > IIRC ;) > Gold plating is, and was, pretty common to prevent corrosion in connectors, sockets and pins. However you only need an incredibly thin layer of gold to be effective. An entire computer system using completely gold plated connectors probably only contains a few micrograms of gold. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 12:20:34 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 18:20:34 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 5:36 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Dave McGuire > wrote: >> On 11/03/2011 11:40 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> >>> It's a promotional picture, I'm guessing this is just like the 8/I >>> pedistal, a >>> one-off that never sold. > > Perhaps it was. A shame if so. > >>> http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-2.jpg >> >> Beautiful! > > I've seen that photo before - also very nice. > > I don't relish the idea of trying to fabricate an -8/I backplane from > modules (to fabricate a pedestal-mounted -8/I), but one could > semi-easily cobble up an ad-hoc -8/M from an Omnibus backplane and > -8/M frontpanel board/plexi and make a table-top rack-mount enclosure > with modern tools. > > I already have an SBC6120+FP6120 in a hand-made picture frame so I can > have the small-form-factor gee-whiz experience right now, but there's > still a lot of appeal in a desktop PDP-8 from original parts. > > If I were any good at steel fabrication, I have access to the tools to > make something like that case. Perhaps it would be feasible from > aluminum with T-slot extrusions and cut panels. That's well within my > skillset. > > -ethan Have a look at this page on my website (www.pdp-11.nl) my projects --> homebrew "pdp8/I" (especially at the end "Housing for the pdp8/i" ) - Henk From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 12:27:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:27:07 -0400 Subject: PAL cloning In-Reply-To: <4EB26553.25201.2F3AC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB13F85.20119.BD4128@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB2BE8A.5010800@neurotica.com> <4EB26553.25201.2F3AC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB2CEEB.60302@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 12:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Nice touch backdropping your board with the BYTE "programmable >> hardware" issue. ;) > > You get the "sharp eye" award! I was wondering if anyone would pick > that up. I'd thought about using an old Lattice databook instead, > but I spotted the BYTE on my shelf and that was that. I do so like > the old Robert Tinney covers... Yes, they certainly are fun. I'm glad BYTE didn't leave their covers to random afterthoughts like many magazines seem to. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 3 12:34:18 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:34:18 -0500 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4EB2D09A.9000208@vaxen.net> On 11/3/11 11:56 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 November 2011 16:32, Vintage Coder > wrote: >> The editor/IDE that comes with FreePascal that Gene B pointed me to >> has a very MSDOS/TurboPascal look and feel. >> > > Yes, I vaguely remember that. MICROS~1's "Quick" language products > had a very similar one, too - including QBASIC, which was actually > the basis of the original MS-DOS full-screen editor. > > The TurboVision look& feel is the basis of SETedit. Not sure if the > Linux version was reverse-engineered or what. > http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ The Midnight Commander built-in editor gets pretty close to the old MS-DOS EDIT.EXE, except it has a lot of customization options. mc is a damn fine file manager too. :) Doc From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 12:36:15 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 17:36:15 +0000 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: <20111103123709.7a305bdb@crucible.dragonsweb.org> References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <20111103104907.61572bb0@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <20111103123709.7a305bdb@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:37 PM, James B. DiGriz wrote: > I got that ;-), but it's still a valid consideration. I was lying. I think some 68030 chips had gold-plated caps on them :) >> It seems very sad. I keep my most precious vintage machines in the >> house with me these days, or in a warm, locked alarmed self storage >> unit near where I work. With luck they will be safe in those places. > Like to run them, not store them If I had the space and energy bills weren't such a worry I would too :) > My latest acquisition is a barely marginally topical Dell Poweredge 4400 from 1999. It will save on > running the heater this winter, though. I have a HP zx6000 Integrity machine for that. OpenVMS at 1000mph... with extra heating :D The Alpha PWS does a pretty decent job of that too. Strangely most of my older stuff doesn't run that warm, but it's mostly small stuff. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 12:42:58 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:42:58 -0400 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: > entire computer system using completely gold plated > connectors probably only contains a few micrograms of gold. Wrong. Do some Google research. -- Will From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Nov 3 12:47:35 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:47:35 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB2D3B7.60103@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/03/2011 01:20 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Have a look at this page on my website I love the little dog at the bottom of the photo. Is he there to by the equipment's guard dog? BK -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFOstO3CFu3bIiwtTARAoaZAJ4/M5/RM1ihm5VH3yn5S95uLT6L8ACeKpWY 55RiMNaG2Yso7h/0LOpv9Gs= =qngi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 3 13:10:53 2011 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:10:53 -0400 Subject: OpenVMS hosts (was Re: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves?) In-Reply-To: References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <20111103104907.61572bb0@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <20111103123709.7a305bdb@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20111103141053.12c965cd@crucible.dragonsweb.org> On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 17:36:15 +0000 Mark Benson wrote: > > > Like to run them, not store them > > If I had the space and energy bills weren't such a worry I would > too :) > > > My latest acquisition is a barely marginally topical Dell Poweredge > > 4400 from 1999. It will save on running the heater this winter, > > though. > > I have a HP zx6000 Integrity machine for that. OpenVMS at 1000mph... > with extra heating :D The Alpha PWS does a pretty decent job of that > too. > Nice. Funny you should mention OpenVMS in this context. I had in mind to run my simh/Hobbyist instance, pemvax.dragonsweb.org (offline at the moment), on a vm on the 4400, but I might wait till I get an HP/Compaq machine for that. It's on an old Tyan Thunderbolt box right now, but running it on a Dell seems like dropping a small-block 350 into a Mustang, for some reason. Just not done ;-) -- From vrs at msn.com Thu Nov 3 13:22:12 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 11:22:12 -0700 Subject: Switch paddles was Re: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103145232.GB5336@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103145232.GB5336@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: From: "Pontus Pihlgren": Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:52 AM > On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 07:30:50AM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> I've wondered what was up with the hodge-podge of switch colors. That thing >> has somehow ended up with nearly every shade I've ever seen on an 8, except >> the blue and green of the industrial stuff, and the white of the 8/S >> and straight 8. >> Even the brown of the 8/S and straight-8 is in there! > > Well they break easily, I'm guessing your l had some friends give up their > parts. Yeah -- 7 or 8 different friends, from the look of things. Vince From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 3 13:30:56 2011 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:30:56 -0400 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20111103143056.18c4995c@crucible.dragonsweb.org> On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:42:58 -0400 William Donzelli wrote: > > entire computer system using completely gold plated > > connectors probably only contains a few micrograms of gold. > > Wrong. Do some Google research. > > -- > Will Nah, that yellowish luster is only >simulated< gold plating, Will, like on a CrackerJack prize ;-) While it might fool some knuckle-dragging scrap thief, it is, of course, utterly worthless, other than having some mild corrosion inhibiting properties. But you knew that, right? ;-) -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 13:44:26 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> References: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On Wed, 2011-11-02 at 07:30 -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I'll continue using the Catweasel and my various other boxes to make >> images and hope that Philip gets the support software for DiscFerret >> fleshed out in the near future. > > The software is being worked on by myself and two other developers. We > have an IRC channel on Freenode (irc.freenode.net), predictably enough > called #discferret. Good to hear. I'm embarrassed to admit that in 16+ years of internet usage, I've yet to participate in IRC (he ducks..). > And I'm always on the lookout for more developers :) No promises, but I would like to eavesdrop and see what's going on. >> Philip? You've been very quiet lately. How's progress? > > I've been quiet for several reasons: > > 1) I tend to stay out of OT discussions, and there have been a lot of > those on-list recently. Understood completely. > 2) Every time I've commented on a thread like this, I've been dragged > into some type of flame battle. Some people really don't like the idea > of alternatives being mentioned -- to the extent that I mentioned the > DiscFerret on one classiccmp web-forum, and ended up having ALL my posts > removed (several dozen messages), and my account blocked. Complete with > a message from the admin to the effect of "your opensource project harms > commercial interests, and we have few enough commercial suppliers left > as it is". I've stopped trying... That's absolutely... incredible. Words fail me. > As I've said elsethread, I see the three devices as serving different > parts of the same market: > - Kryoflux -- hobbyists who "just want a disc image". Turn-key, no > fiddly switches or buttons to press. > - DiscFerret and (to some degree) Catweasel -- Tinkerers. People who > want to look under the hood, see how things are done. The sort of folks > who buy a car, then immediately go out and buy the Workshop Manual, > Haynes manual and all the special tools required. A good summary. -- From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 13:49:44 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 18:49:44 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <1353766290-1320340340-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-795941091-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> <1353766290-1320340340-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-795941091-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: On 3 November 2011 17:12, Vintage Coder wrote: > I have some copies of DRDOS around somewhere, and one of them also has a similar looking editor. I guess whoever was first set the standard, most of the ones I've seen are more or less similar in function and appearance. That's CUA for you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access (one of my more successful Wikipedia articles, that one) > I was just surprised (and very amused) to see how well the FreePascal guys recreated the old look and feel on UNIX-like OS. Feels like you're really there. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 13:51:20 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 18:51:20 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EB2D09A.9000208@vaxen.net> References: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> <4EB2D09A.9000208@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On 3 November 2011 17:34, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 11/3/11 11:56 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 3 November 2011 16:32, Vintage Coder >> wrote: >>> >>> The editor/IDE that comes with FreePascal that Gene B pointed me to >>> has a very MSDOS/TurboPascal look and feel. >>> >> >> Yes, I vaguely remember that. MICROS~1's "Quick" language products >> had a very similar one, too - including QBASIC, which was actually >> the basis of the original MS-DOS full-screen editor. >> >> The TurboVision look& ?feel is the basis of SETedit. Not sure if the >> Linux version was reverse-engineered or what. >> http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ > > ?The Midnight Commander built-in editor gets pretty close to the old MS-DOS > EDIT.EXE, except it has a lot of customization options. Does it? I did not know that. I thought it was a ripoff *cough* I mean /loving tribute to/ the Norton Commander, which frankly I never had any use for on DOS. I must reevaluate it, then. Norton's text-mode UI was totally different, AIR. > ?mc is a damn fine file manager too. ?:) I am sure you're right. Even my *minimal* competence with cp, mv and rm usually extends far enough for what I really need on xNix, though! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 14:18:57 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:18:57 -0500 Subject: UCC 8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no 8a love?? http://imageshack.us/f/708/pdp8a.jpg/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 3 14:29:46 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:29:46 -0400 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <20111103143056.18c4995c@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <25AD53FE777740519912EF453BF3848A@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James B. DiGriz" To: Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? > On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:42:58 -0400 > William Donzelli wrote: > >> > entire computer system using completely gold plated >> > connectors probably only contains a few micrograms of gold. >> >> Wrong. Do some Google research. >> >> -- >> Will > > Nah, that yellowish luster is only >simulated< gold plating, Will, > like on a CrackerJack prize ;-) While it might fool some > knuckle-dragging scrap thief, it is, of course, utterly worthless, > other than having some mild corrosion inhibiting properties. But you > knew that, right? ;-) > > -- http://www.scribd.com/doc/28911037/Gold-Content-List-in-CPU-Chips Some of my favorite chips are getting melted down for gold. From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Nov 3 14:30:36 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:30:36 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4EB2EBDC.3090102@verizon.net> On 11/3/2011 2:44 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm embarrassed to admit that in 16+ years of internet > usage, I've yet to participate in IRC (he ducks..) My introduction to the internet was more-or-less through IRC in the late 80's as a kid. I did BBS's starting around 1983/1984. Multi-line BBSs were rare, fun, and in demand. The best of the local ones had between 4 and 8 lines. Considering that normal message boards usually had at least a day of lag between exchanges, real time communication that "chat" provided, was awesome. A friend from a BBS said, "if you think 7 or 8 people chatting at time is cool, try IRC," giving me a "public" account on the local university's unix box. Really opened up a world of excitement...... never really played with unix or really any OS besides MSDOS, CocoII, and AmigaDOS.......... IRC, for as much of a troll-haven as it is, and a time-sucking procrastinator's dream, really has a redeeming value to it. Since it was around before the www, it was a pretty good source of information at the time and quenched the instant-gratification thirst. (even if it was at the expense of being slightly unreliable) I still pop in from time to time on some channels --- and am always happily surprised when an old friend pops up to say hi. You should try it for a little while. There are some software packages/sites that offer unofficial real-time support through it. Keith From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 3 14:37:10 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:37:10 -0500 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> <4EB2D09A.9000208@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4EB2ED66.1000002@vaxen.net> On 11/3/11 1:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 November 2011 17:34, Doc Shipley wrote: >> >> The Midnight Commander built-in editor gets pretty close to the old MS-DOS >> EDIT.EXE, except it has a lot of customization options. > > Does it? I did not know that. I thought it was a ripoff *cough* I mean > /loving tribute to/ the Norton Commander, which frankly I never had > any use for on DOS. I must reevaluate it, then. Norton's text-mode UI > was totally different, AIR. > >> mc is a damn fine file manager too. :) > > I am sure you're right. Even my *minimal* competence with cp, mv and > rm usually extends far enough for what I really need on xNix, though! Oh, it's a total ripoff of Norton Commander. While I usually use the CLI tools, a quick & dirty viewer is often nice, plus sometimes mc's sane handling of bad file names (leading double dashes, for example) comes in *very* handy. As does its builtin support for remote filesystems. I use the GUI version of mc on my Mac at home. Finder just purely sucks. Doc From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 3 15:02:48 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:02:48 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk> On 03/11/11 18:44, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> And I'm always on the lookout for more developers :) > > No promises, but I would like to eavesdrop and see what's going on. We even have a log bot :) > A good summary. Indeed. But I'll bet Tony will yell at me for daring to mention Haynes manuals! Incidentally....... What Haynes manuals say --- and what they really mean! Gently pry... Bash a screwdriver into the gap, then whack the screwdriver with a hammer. Repeatedly. Should remove easily... Will be rusted solid. Clamp with molegrips and bash with a hammer. Rotate anticlockwise... You do know which way that is, don't you? Remove small retaining clip... it's in there somewhere, under all that muck! Snug fit... Attempting to remove this will result in skinned knuckles and lacerated fingers. Tight fit... Not a hope in hell, mate! See Chapter 4... that'll teach you to skip ahead, you silly fool! See Chapter 5... and that'll teach you to read the ENTIRE chapter before you start. Hope you can figure out how that gearbox goes back together! Locate... This photo is the only clue you're getting. Retain small spring... "Now where the hell did that fly off to?!" Loosen... You'll need a crate of penetrating oil and rust remover for this one! Press and rotate to remove light bulb... Right, that's the glass, now how do I remove the metal bit? Routine maintenance... if it isn't broken, it's about to be! Apply gentle heat... Heat until cherry red. Gently twist... gentle by gorilla standards! Reverse-threaded screw... so don't mix it up with the other ones! One spanner rating... this will take you all afternoon Two spanner rating... ... and most of the remainder of the week. Three spanner rating... Hope you've got the phone number for the local garage. Four spanner rating... Your mechanic will be rubbing his hands with glee. Five spanner rating... Are you seriously considering this? If so, don't even THINK of telling your insurance company you actually tried it! Special tools required... Which nobody has or will sell you. Fabricate tool as follows... Bwahahahahahaha! That's a laugh! Remove retaining nut... That's right, the one under the spherical blob of rust. See illustration... which is for last model year's version, and doesn't match your car at all! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 3 15:03:28 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> URL? (alternate front panels) > > My hard drive at home :) Luckily my backup-server was online. Here is > what i got: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/ > > I've nicked these from various web pages, so if anyone wants me to remove > something, just let me know. > > The blue PDP-8/m is my favourite. Imagine that in a desktop stand: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102630599 I never thought something like that was ever made. Very nifty. What's your favorite pdp11 front panel? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 3 15:31:16 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Here's a variation of the pdp 11/70 with a chocolate-brown and white color >> scheme: http://661.org/images/csis1170.jpg > > CSI was a computer typesetting company. Pretty much cradle-to-grave in > terms of end user support. > > "Composition Systems Incorporated" I think. Does anyone here want to own that particular front panel? I've been casting about for a plain pdp 11/70 panel and I was offered that CSI variant. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 3 15:43:31 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:43:31 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: <8089D87B-DA34-4BB8-BAFF-3AE99386782B@kryoflux.com> <201111022346.TAA11215@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB1F3A1.5040603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4EB2FCF3.9060003@philpem.me.uk> On 03/11/11 11:29, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Has anyone developed support that can pull sector images from discferret > yet? I was hoping to find time to work on this, but LIFE(tm) has gotten > in the way. I haven't honestly had much of a chance to hack on it :-(. Most of the work has been put into cleaning up the DiscFerret data acquisition tools to the point where they can actually be used. I have a prototype sector decoder, but it hasn't been tested very well. I'm not keen on releasing it until it runs through all the test cases without crashing out... > Last I knew, it was capable only of pulling a flux-transition stream and > analyzing statistics on it. That's still the case, though I have two weeks off work over the Newtonmas (or Christmas if you prefer) break, at least part of which will be spent finishing off the software and creating a timing model for the disc writer. I will get cycle-level accuracy out of that thing if it takes all month! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 15:44:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:44:15 -0400 Subject: UCC 8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB2FD1F.7050208@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 03:18 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > no 8a love?? > > http://imageshack.us/f/708/pdp8a.jpg/ I'm lovin' it!! -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Nov 3 15:45:40 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:45:40 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4EB2FD74.5080307@update.uu.se> On 11/03/2011 09:03 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> The blue PDP-8/m is my favourite. Imagine that in a desktop stand: >> >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102630599 > > I never thought something like that was ever made. Very nifty. > What's your favorite pdp11 front panel? > I was going to say that there was no clear winner, but then I remembered the GT40 :) http://www.gameclassification.com/files/machines/gt40_crop_2.jpg I generally like the 11/05 and 11/10, but the GT40 adds something extra :) Next in line is perhaps the 11/40 front panel for the KL10 front end: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/kl-10-fp-1.jpg /P From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 16:03:25 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:03:25 +0000 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <4EB2FD74.5080307@update.uu.se> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2FD74.5080307@update.uu.se> Message-ID: This thread should be renamed "Pimp my PDP" :) Dave Caroline From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Nov 3 16:17:27 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:17:27 +0100 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <4EB2FD74.5080307@update.uu.se> References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2FD74.5080307@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4EB304E7.4020304@update.uu.se> On 11/03/2011 09:45 PM, Pontus wrote: > > I was going to say that there was no clear winner, but then I > remembered the GT40 :) > > http://www.gameclassification.com/files/machines/gt40_crop_2.jpg > > I generally like the 11/05 and 11/10, but the GT40 adds something > extra :) > > Next in line is perhaps the 11/40 front panel for the KL10 front end: > > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/kl-10-fp-1.jpg > > /P Oh, I forgot about the industrial 11/40 http://lh4.ggpht.com/-DgRMx3wimg8/SDvV8htjyfE/AAAAAAAAAng/pZaLe3L0Nt4/PDP1140.jpg Colorful! /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 16:28:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:28:27 -0400 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4EB1E81A.1020204@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB2187E.1040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB3077B.8030504@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 12:19 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> I imagine EMACS Lisp is not much use outside of the context of using >>> and customising Emacs, for instance - is that fair? I don't use Emacs. >>> I've learned too many text editors and when I first met Emacs it was >>> part of an expensive OS of limited application; I mainly worked with >>> DOS and Macs, on which it was not available. >> >> There have been many Emacsen available for DOS since its very early days. >> Some free, some commercial, most very good. Just FYI. > > Fair point, but in support work, which is what I mainly do, you pretty > much have to use whatever tools are already there on your customers' > machines. Perfectly understandable. > Mind, for 15y I did carry around a small but slowly-growing library of > write-protected disks which contained a whole assortment of tools for > me to use - from Norton to anti-virus scanners to various handy little > extra tools. I did the exact same thing back when I supported DOS installations. :) > As for editors, when MS-DOS 5.0 came out, I was able to junk Edlin and > go to EDIT.EXE - and I really /really/ liked it. It is still one of my > very favourite text editors to this day. Never found a Linux editor > quite as good, although SETedit came very close - but it is no longer > maintained and doesn't run on modern distros. This makes me very sad. It looks like setedit's last release was less than a year ago...? Have you seen v0.5.7? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 3 16:42:17 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EB2ED66.1000002@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Nov 3, 11 02:37:10 pm" Message-ID: <201111032142.pA3LgHu4012326@floodgap.com> > I use the GUI version of mc on my Mac at home. Finder just purely sucks. "GUI version"? I have the Mac binary of mc, but is this Aquafied? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Marry me and I'll never look at another horse! -- Groucho Marx ------------- From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 16:52:26 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:52:26 -0500 Subject: UCC 8/L In-Reply-To: <4EB2FD1F.7050208@neurotica.com> References: <4EB2FD1F.7050208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: more 8a goodness these are avial to be added to said photo database btw... http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/7456/fisher.jpg On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/03/2011 03:18 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> no 8a love?? >> >> http://imageshack.us/f/708/**pdp8a.jpg/ >> > > I'm lovin' it!! > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 16:58:28 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:58:28 -0500 Subject: UCC 8/L In-Reply-To: References: <4EB2FD1F.7050208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ugg stupid image shack here http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/848/fisher.jpg/ On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > more 8a goodness these are avial to be added to said photo database btw... > http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/7456/fisher.jpg > > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 11/03/2011 03:18 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> no 8a love?? >>> >>> http://imageshack.us/f/708/**pdp8a.jpg/ >>> >> >> I'm lovin' it!! >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> New Kensington, PA >> > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 3 16:58:40 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 22:58:40 +0100 Subject: Again packing of classic computers Message-ID: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> Well I bought a HP 9845B from a German seller, the m**** putted the whole thing in a box with some airbags. And of cause (TONY DON'T READ THIS) the monitor came loose of the case and destroyed the monitor posts ;-) Sh** why can't they pack classic computers in a decent way. I'm getting very disappointed in epray, every time I find a nice bargain the destroy it by shipping it the wrong way. -Rik From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Nov 3 17:01:43 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:01:43 -0500 Subject: 8/A Love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9n36b7h444b1i3u6ahk4bampduti8r098e@4ax.com> On Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:19:40 -0500, you wrote: >no 8a love?? > >http://imageshack.us/f/708/pdp8a.jpg/ well *I* love my 8/A... notice the clone of the Programmer's Panel (with 0.6" LEDs) that Vince and I did :) http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/PDP8A.jpg From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 3 16:12:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:12:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <20111102173811.I51374@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 2, 11 05:38:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 2 Nov 2011, at 21:39, Tony Duell wrote: > > There are few quicker ways to lose me as a potential customer than to > > insult me. > > . . . AND is it a USB device? It is, and that's a reason that I won't buy one now (or indeed buy a DiskFerret). There's no point in me buying soemthing that I can't connect to anything. However, given the volume of data to be transfered, USB makes sense I think. My big moan is when USB is used for devices that transfer small amounts of data (keyboards ,digital multimeters, etc), it's an overcomplex interface for that, there ate plenty of simpler alternatives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 3 15:59:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 20:59:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: <4EB164F3.5885.14F7774@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 11 03:42:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 2 Nov 2011 at 21:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Charlie Allen of Maxim. Pretty nuch the right idea, but most > > > variations also make use of the ability to float a line (high > > > impedance) as well. > > > > I think that's required to avoid other LEDs turning on, isn't it. If a > > pin has to be either high or low, then (without giving it much > > thought) can you do any better than conventional multiplexing? > > If you count an n-input decoder/demux, then no, you can drive 2**n Sure, I meant if you added no external logic. > lines; Charlieplexing is n*(n-1). e.g., if you have 6 output pins, > you can drive 64 LEDs using a traditional demux or 30 LEDs using If you regard those 6 oupuyts as row/column drives to a conventional LED matrix, yhe bes you can do is to split them in hald and have 3 rows and 3 columns, for a total of 9 LEDs. I think that for this sort of circut, given n outputs : n even : (N^2)/4 (or (n/2)^2) n odd : (int(n/2) * (int(n/2)+1)))/4 > Charlieplexing with no additional logic. It saves money, but can't > beat regular muxing. CP also suffers from issues with leakage > current, where some LEDs remain dimly illuminated. It beats normal multipelxed LED matrix (not adding any external logic). But for charlieplexing to work, and not haev other LEDs turn on, you need indivdualy-controllable 3-state outputs -- that is any of the pins must be able to be high, low, or high-impedance, independant of all the others. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 3 16:09:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:09:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vacuum 'leaking out' In-Reply-To: from "Doug Jackson" at Nov 3, 11 09:57:29 am Message-ID: > > Years ago (In the days of HeNe lasers), I was working in a physics workshop. > > We had a HeNe tube that was more of e neon tube - the Heluim had migrated > out of the tube. Helium is a very small molecule (jist one atom, and a smal latom at that) and will difuse through glass I think. It'll certainly get trhough any margine seal. This reminds me of one of the most elegant physics experiemtns I read about. THere was an evaculated vessel containing an alpha spurce and a thin-walled evacuated glass tube with a couple of electrods sealed in it. The alpha particls collected a couple of electrons (aince the source was originally electriclal neutral, there must have been 2 spare electrons for each alpha particle), then the result diffused through the thin-walled glass tubve. Afte a tibe, a hig votlage was applied between the elctrodes and the gas in sie the tube, formed fro mthe alpha particles which had ffiused in, ioniese. The spectrum of the light thus produced was identical to that of helium. Thus showign that the alpha particle was a helium nucleaus (as had been suspsected from the measured charge/mass ratio before this experiment). > > On fellow got an idea to shroud the tube in a container full of He gas > under perssure to rectify the problem... Sadly it didn't work. Iw ould be I think with suifficient pressure (the more the merrier, provided it doesn't crus hthe laser tube) and time it will work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 3 17:02:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 22:02:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 3, 11 08:02:48 pm Message-ID: > Indeed. But I'll bet Tony will yell at me for daring to mention Haynes > manuals! Oh, they're always good for a laugh. Expecially if you compare them to the official factory manual to see what Haynes left out (both entire sections -- they seem not to bother with the diagnostic codes for mdoern cars) and steps in a particular procedure. At one thime they claiemd that 'every manaul is based on a complete strip-down and rebuild'. They're stopped saying that now, IMHO it's no lonter true. The recent Haynes manauls are often reprinted bits of the official manaul (some diagrams are identical). And it's clear in amny caes they;'ve nto actually tried to do the repair. > Special tools required... Which nobody has or will sell you. The tool is avaialble locally... 'locally' is either a misprint for 'luckily' or the name of a small village in Wales. > > Fabricate tool as follows... Bwahahahahahaha! That's a laugh! Actualyl, I wish they would include dimentioned drawings of the special tools. A lot of them could be made in a home workshop... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 17:17:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:17:09 -0400 Subject: Again packing of classic computers In-Reply-To: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> References: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4EB312E5.7090409@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 05:58 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Well I bought a HP 9845B from a German seller, the m**** putted the whole > thing in a box with some airbags. > > And of cause (TONY DON'T READ THIS) the monitor came loose of the case and > destroyed the monitor posts ;-) > > Sh** why can't they pack classic computers in a decent way. > > I'm getting very disappointed in epray, every time I find a nice bargain the > destroy it by shipping it the wrong way. Surely eBay isn't to blame for that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 3 17:26:28 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:26:28 -0500 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <201111032142.pA3LgHu4012326@floodgap.com> References: <201111032142.pA3LgHu4012326@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB31514.6060001@vaxen.net> On 11/3/11 4:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I use the GUI version of mc on my Mac at home. Finder just purely sucks. > > "GUI version"? I have the Mac binary of mc, but is this Aquafied? No, it's Javanated. :D Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 3 17:29:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 22:29:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Again packing of classic computers In-Reply-To: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Nov 3, 11 10:58:40 pm Message-ID: > > Well I bought a HP 9845B from a German seller, the m**** putted the whole > thing in a box with some airbags. Ouch! > > And of cause (TONY DON'T READ THIS) the monitor came loose of the case and > destroyed the monitor posts ;-) How am I supposed to know not to read soemthng before I've read it nad interpretted the instruction :-). I beleive it's a good idea to remove the monitor when shippign one of these machines. Remidns me of the time a friend had a PERQ 1a shipped to him. This machine has a Shugard SW4000 hard idsk nad it's a good idea (to put it mildly) to fit the head locking clip and spindle locking screw before moving the mahcien any distance... We told the seller how to do this, he said he would. The machine arrived, and the seller then claimed he couldn't find the locking clip (ARGH, I would have lent him one..) and that he hoped it would be OK. It wasn't!. And to make thigns worse, the lockign clip was inside the machine.. He just couldn;'t be bothered, I had a couple lf very late nightsd as a result. > > Sh** why can't they pack classic computers in a decent way. > > I'm getting very disappointed in epray, every time I find a nice bargain the > destroy it by shipping it the wrong way. I must be very lucky. Everything I've boguht on E-bay has been well-packed, or at least well enough packed to avoid damage. -tony From auringer at tds.net Thu Nov 3 17:31:22 2011 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 17:31:22 -0500 Subject: Again packing of classic computers In-Reply-To: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> References: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Well I bought a HP 9845B from a German seller, the m**** putted the whole > thing in a box with some airbags. > I'm getting very disappointed in epray, every time I find a nice bargain the > destroy it by shipping it the wrong way. I feel for you. I even offered a seller extra money to pay for better packing material and the time to package it correctly. Her response, which showed up about the time as the box, was "..., and I had my husband to pack it carfully with plenty of packing peanuts. Praying it makes it to you safely." Arrgh! The thing didn't seem to incur any more damage than when it left them, but there were more peanuts inside the computer than outside. The bottom panel was missing, which I didn't know when I bought it. Between all of the boards, in the open frame power supply, in the slot for the tape cartridge, in the fans, everywhere. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have thought you could do such a thorough job of filling a computer with peanuts. What a pain. -Jon From gyorpb at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 17:32:45 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:32:45 +0100 Subject: Again packing of classic computers In-Reply-To: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> References: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Go after him. Through eBay, for starters, and try to get your money back. Once the auction ended and you paid, the merchandise became your property, which the seller destroyed through negligence. You have a strong case. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek On 3 nov. 2011, at 22:58, "Rik Bos" wrote: > Well I bought a HP 9845B from a German seller, the m**** putted the whole > thing in a box with some airbags. > > And of cause (TONY DON'T READ THIS) the monitor came loose of the case and > destroyed the monitor posts ;-) > > Sh** why can't they pack classic computers in a decent way. > > I'm getting very disappointed in epray, every time I find a nice bargain the > destroy it by shipping it the wrong way. > > > > -Rik > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 17:39:47 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 17:39:47 -0500 Subject: 8/A Love In-Reply-To: <9n36b7h444b1i3u6ahk4bampduti8r098e@4ax.com> References: <9n36b7h444b1i3u6ahk4bampduti8r098e@4ax.com> Message-ID: kool i take it ur panel was missing? On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 5:01 PM, Charles Morris < charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net> wrote: > On Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:19:40 -0500, you wrote: > > >no 8a love?? > > > >http://imageshack.us/f/708/pdp8a.jpg/ > > well *I* love my 8/A... notice the clone of the Programmer's Panel > (with 0.6" LEDs) that Vince and I did :) > > http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/PDP8A.jpg > > > From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu Nov 3 17:41:52 2011 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Again packing of classic computers In-Reply-To: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1320360112.56832.YahooMailClassic@web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> That sucks. Course that has nothing to do with ebay itself, I suppose maybe there should be a nice wiki on packing vintage computers to point people to or discuss it with the buyer ahead of time. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 3 17:42:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:42:21 -0700 Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: References: <4EB164F3.5885.14F7774@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 11 03:42:43 pm, Message-ID: <4EB2B65D.968.16BC7BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2011 at 20:59, Tony Duell wrote: > It beats normal multipelxed LED matrix (not adding any external > logic). But for charlieplexing to work, and not haev other LEDs turn > on, you need indivdualy-controllable 3-state outputs -- that is any of > the pins must be able to be high, low, or high-impedance, independant > of all the others. Isn't the ability to bit-manipulate I/O pins a hallmark of most modern small (I/O limited) microcontrollers? I thought that went without saying. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 17:45:10 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 18:45:10 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > >> It's a promotional picture, I'm guessing this is just like the 8/I > >> pedistal, a > >> one-off that never sold. > > Perhaps it was. A shame if so. There is also the possibility that it never existed - just a model, an empty box. It was sort of a dumb idea anyway, even as neat as it is. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 3 17:48:14 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EB31514.6060001@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Nov 3, 11 05:26:28 pm" Message-ID: <201111032248.pA3MmEVD005424@floodgap.com> > > "GUI version"? I have the Mac binary of mc, but is this Aquafied? > > No, it's Javanated. :D Is it this? http://www.mucommander.com/ Looks like it will still run on 10.4, which is great! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Life is too important to take seriously. -- Corky Siegel ------------------- From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 3 17:50:38 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:50:38 -0500 Subject: Again packing of classic computers In-Reply-To: <4EB312E5.7090409@neurotica.com> References: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> <4EB312E5.7090409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB31ABE.9050503@vaxen.net> On 11/3/11 5:17 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/03/2011 05:58 PM, Rik Bos wrote: >> Well I bought a HP 9845B from a German seller, the m**** putted the whole >> thing in a box with some airbags. >> >> And of cause (TONY DON'T READ THIS) the monitor came loose of the case >> and >> destroyed the monitor posts ;-) >> >> Sh** why can't they pack classic computers in a decent way. >> >> I'm getting very disappointed in epray, every time I find a nice >> bargain the >> destroy it by shipping it the wrong way. > > Surely eBay isn't to blame for that? They are, at least partially. I recently received a motorcycle front-end assembly that was thrown loose into a box with brake rotors and bolts tossed in as well, forks undrained, and the fork caps loose in the threads. Hilarity ensued. http://www.docsbox.net/Damage Per Ebay's complaint "resolution", I ended up having to properly pack and ship at my own expense to obtain a refund - for the sale price, not including the original shipping charges. I ended up netting about a $425 refund on the initial $560 expense. In a lot of cases the cost of return shipping, plus the time to properly pack and ship, would make the "refund" a negative-sum proposition. You can bet your sweet bippie that the Ebay seller knows that. Doc Shipley From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 3 17:59:29 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 22:59:29 -0000 Subject: John McCarthy References: <4EA6B9C4.5090305@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA02F0E1@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EA7FFA7.2020402@telegraphics.com.au> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0301AA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <00e501cc981a$4195f4e0$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <011301cc9a7c$497db8a0$b8fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 5:17 PM Subject: Re: John McCarthy > On 31 October 2011 21:31, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Liam Proven" > >> > >> Many thanks! Lots of food for further reading there. > >> > >> May I ask: what do folk think of the quote I've often seen cited: > >> > >> * Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. > >> * Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: "the car that's always in front of > > you." > >> * Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle. > >> > > > > Interesting quote comparing Common Lisp with an anime (Howls Moving Castle). > > The anime is made by one of the legendary studios within the genre (Studio > > Ghibli). So I guess it would be a great complement to the language. > > My favourite Subaru is the Imprezza and any sports car has to be driven in > > manual gears to get the most pleasure out of driving it - just don't go from > > 5th gear to 1st, whilst at high speed!!! > > /Howl's Moving Castle/ is a *novel* by thr late Diana Wynne Jones: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howl%27s_Moving_Castle > > The book was subsequently adapted into a film by Hayao Miyazaki. I have never heard of the novel and Hayao Miyazaki works for (or owns?) Studio Ghibli. > > The point of the quote is not the film; it's the eponymous object. In > other words, the Scheme is small and fast and elegant but possibly a > bit too much hard work for some people; that Emacs Lisp may not be > pretty but it gets the job done very well; and that Common Lisp is, > especially by comparison to the other two, impossibly large and > complex and baroque and completely and utterly impractical. > > /That/ is what I was after folks' opinions on! > Sorry, I misinterpreted what you were after. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 3 18:17:13 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:17:13 -0400 Subject: UCC 8/L In-Reply-To: <4EB2FD1F.7050208@neurotica.com> References: <4EB2FD1F.7050208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB320F9.9060304@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/11/11 4:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/03/2011 03:18 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> no 8a love?? >> >> http://imageshack.us/f/708/pdp8a.jpg/ > > I'm lovin' it!! > It's a beautiful thing indeed. --T From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 18:37:54 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:37:54 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <201111032248.pA3MmEVD005424@floodgap.com> References: <201111032248.pA3MmEVD005424@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7B7EF58B-C0F2-4B05-B87E-E15E18FE3F77@gmail.com> On 3 Nov 2011, at 22:48, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> "GUI version"? I have the Mac binary of mc, but is this Aquafied? >> >> No, it's Javanated. :D > > Is it this? > > http://www.mucommander.com/ > > Looks like it will still run on 10.4, which is great! If you could find me something like that that showed SVN file status in with he display (ala the way Tortoise does it in Windows Explorer windows) I'd probably never be able to repay you ;) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From lists at softpres.org Thu Nov 3 18:52:12 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:52:12 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk> References: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <17010E94-A3AE-47AF-B64B-4C654CB70591@softpres.org> On 3 Nov 2011, at 20:02, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The problem as I see it is that some of the WIPs (e.g. the one covering > RNC Copylock Amiga track re-generation) are outright incomplete. They > state that the data can be regenerated from the seed value, but do not > explain how this is done. We have a *huge* amount of information in there in those SPS pages as you know, so it is all very well to say there is stuff missing, but we have to stop somewhere. I realise you have learnt a lot from those pages, but there is only so much time in the day. If we documented every disk format or protection we discovered in that level of detail, we would never get anything done. Once the stuff is off their dying media, we can spend the next 100 years documenting it. Somebody needs to preserve it in the first place. Kieron From lists at softpres.org Thu Nov 3 19:26:57 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 00:26:57 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk> References: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <461FA3DD-E677-4E7F-AD01-13593AF851F5@softpres.org> On 3 Nov 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > As I've said elsethread, I see the three devices as serving different > parts of the same market: > - Kryoflux -- hobbyists who "just want a disc image". Turn-key, no > fiddly switches or buttons to press. As you are commenting on our product (something I have avoided doing on yours you might notice), I think we need a more balanced view than simply saying our product is for hobbyists. I see KryoFlux as being from the people who have spent 10 years working on the technology and research doing this, who actively preserve thousands of games with very complicated formats and protections. KryoFlux is a result of that research, a product that is used right now for real preservation, both by us, and by small and large archives and libraries. It's a product for people who are not willing to gamble on the authenticity or integrity of their data. It has been through a huge amount of testing, and is now used in the wild by hundreds of people. Not only does it support raw imaging of flux transitions, we also support output of sector image formats for pretty much all major home platforms of the last 25 odd years (as well as a few strange ones). We even support complete imaging of flippy disks (with a suitable drive) too. People can tinker at a deeper level with KryoFlux - aside from the fact there are plenty of "buttons to press" (we just don't stick them in your face), various people have written their own tools (decoders, analysers, converters) around our technology already. The hardware is open, and the formats are documented. I'm biased for sure, but I do think it is an extremely well designed, robust solution, and it is getting better all the time (some exciting new features in the works right now in fact). Kieron From lists at softpres.org Thu Nov 3 19:54:34 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 00:54:34 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk> References: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <2C3549FA-949D-43D9-84B7-A25E34F2B265@softpres.org> On 3 Nov 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that: > 1) The IPF library was read-only > 2) There were no publicly-available documents covering the IPF file format > 3) No documents have been released as part of the source dump (thus satisfying (2)) 1) The nature of IPF is read-only. It is a mastering format, there would be no point writing to it. 2) We've only recently opened the source (which is pretty well documented), so give us some time... It's something we want have done, sure. Either that or done by somebody else could help so we can concentrate on actually preserving stuff. Maybe you want to help with that Phil? Give a little back? It shouldn't be that hard from the source, but would take time, sure. 3) See (2) > Thus, creating an IPF would involve reverse-engineering the format from > the source code (which I have not examined closely, but appears to be Reverse-engineering from the source code? I don't really know what you mean by that. Ah... you want to write IPFs... I don't think that really needs "reverse engineering". You need to try and understand how the code works. It's not simple for sure - that is because it was a very hard problem to solve (mastering disks as they were originally on commercial Trace hardware, with scripted writing). > somewhat Windows-centric and lightly commented based on the few files There are also ports for Linux, Mac and AmigaOS in there too. > Seems a lot of work. I'd rather put the effort into writing a .MFI (MESS > Floppy Image) R/W library... Yes, exactly. IPFs are intended for a specific purpose - preserving commercial games as they were originally produced. For many other uses, like backups of a personal collection, it is probably better to use a simpler format. > * DiscFerret captures data at a much higher resolution (approx. 4x > Kryoflux's peak rate, and twice the Mk4 Catweasel). This means you can > image hard drives (ST506 type) and 2.88MB floppy discs, with suitable > adapter cables. Yep, that is cool. We don't currently have much interest in imaging hard drives I have say. We are working in the area of perfect commercial software preservation, it's built specifically to help with that. > * DiscFerret has full support for both hard-sectored and soft-sectored > media, including reading individual sectors. CW could do this too, AIUI. Yeah, I'd like to see this added to KryoFlux. The thing holding it up is that don't have disks to test. Kieron From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 20:00:13 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 20:00:13 -0500 Subject: UCC 8/L In-Reply-To: <4EB320F9.9060304@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EB2FD1F.7050208@neurotica.com> <4EB320F9.9060304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: http://youtu.be/gDwBZPX_Qjo On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/11/11 4:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 11/03/2011 03:18 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> no 8a love?? >>> >>> http://imageshack.us/f/708/**pdp8a.jpg/ >>> >> >> I'm lovin' it!! >> >> > It's a beautiful thing indeed. > --T > From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 20:23:37 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:23:37 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> What am I missing ? Why did this go for almost $3,000 ? It looks like it was run over with a truck too. It doesn't look like a fake bidding war either. There were several bidders and they look legit. Are these used in some legacy system that makes them special ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/390359982722 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 3 20:25:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:25:01 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <461FA3DD-E677-4E7F-AD01-13593AF851F5@softpres.org> References: , <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk>, <461FA3DD-E677-4E7F-AD01-13593AF851F5@softpres.org> Message-ID: <4EB2DC7D.8617.200B599@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 0:26, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > Not only does it support raw imaging of flux transitions, we also > support output of sector image formats for pretty much all major home > platforms of the last 25 odd years (as well as a few strange ones). That's a pretty bold claim. I'm not saying that you haven't, just that I've got several cabinets full of samples and some are very odd indeed. Suppose I were to send you a specimen copy of one without providing any details (pretty much what I'm given to work with). Do you think you could send me a duplicate and a sector-by-sector dump? I'd really be impressed. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 3 20:25:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:25:01 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <461FA3DD-E677-4E7F-AD01-13593AF851F5@softpres.org> References: , <4EB2F368.1030706@philpem.me.uk>, <461FA3DD-E677-4E7F-AD01-13593AF851F5@softpres.org> Message-ID: <4EB2DC7D.8617.200B599@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 0:26, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > Not only does it support raw imaging of flux transitions, we also > support output of sector image formats for pretty much all major home > platforms of the last 25 odd years (as well as a few strange ones). That's a pretty bold claim. I'm not saying that you haven't, just that I've got several cabinets full of samples and some are very odd indeed. Suppose I were to send you a specimen copy of one without providing any details (pretty much what I'm given to work with). Do you think you could send me a duplicate and a sector-by-sector dump? I'd really be impressed. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 20:40:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:40:43 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 09:23 PM, leaknoil wrote: > What am I missing ? Why did this go for almost $3,000 ? It looks like it > was run over with a truck too. It doesn't look like a fake bidding war > either. There were several bidders and they look legit. Are these used > in some legacy system that makes them special ? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/390359982722 Ohhhhh, a 4000-96. They always go for VERY serious cash. First of all, they're quite fast for being so small; often the fastest way to run VAX binaries without pulling gobs of electricity. Second, a lot of gov't agencies use them for some very specific software that only runs on VAXen. (the US Gov't is FULL of VAXen, specifically in defense sector) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From hexsane at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 20:48:39 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 20:48:39 -0500 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 8:23 PM, leaknoil wrote: > What am I missing ? Why did this go for almost $3,000 ? It looks like it > was run over with a truck too. It doesn't look like a fake bidding war > either. There were several bidders and they look legit. Are these used in > some legacy system that makes them special ? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/**390359982722 > Its the very top of the vaxstation line. If you're still running VAX/VMS legacy apps this is the machine you want. These are very hard to find these days. -Matt From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:01:41 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:01:41 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> I would think they would would re-release them at that price point. I bet that box could be recreated today for very little. HP could use the money. It's only like 20mhz faster then the 4000 which sells for $75 on ebay. Even if you had a VAX app you couldn't port for some odd reason the premium seems ridiculous. If you are waiting on an ancient VAX to do real work for you you obviously don't care about the speed of execution. It will be like 9.5 hours instead of 10 to finish your job. I hate thinking anything in the defense department is running on a vaxstation 4000 still but, it's the government after all. On 11/3/2011 6:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ohhhhh, a 4000-96. They always go for VERY serious cash. > > First of all, they're quite fast for being so small; often the > fastest way to run VAX binaries without pulling gobs of electricity. > Second, a lot of gov't agencies use them for some very specific > software that only runs on VAXen. (the US Gov't is FULL of VAXen, > specifically in defense sector) > > -Dave > From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:05:18 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:05:18 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> Are the VAX emulators not reliable enough for production installs yet ? On 11/3/2011 6:48 PM, Matthew Hudson wrote: > Its the very top of the vaxstation line. If you're still running > VAX/VMS legacy apps this is the machine you want. These are very hard > to find these days. -Matt From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 21:13:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:13:53 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 10:01 PM, leaknoil wrote: > I would think they would would re-release them at that price point. I > bet that box could be recreated today for very little. HP could use the > money. > > It's only like 20mhz faster then the 4000 which sells for $75 on ebay. *Which* 4000? There are VAX 4000 models made with at least three different CPU implementations, which have wildly varying levels of performance, even clock-for-clock. MHz isn't an effective measure of computer performance. Besides, remember how procedure-oriented the US Gov't is. It's the world's best refuge for people who are incapable of independent thought, because there are rule books and procedure books for EVERYTHING. If said book says "thou shall run this on a VAX4000-96", even if a good old 3100-M38 would do the job just fine at about $20.00, you'll sign the P.O. > Even if you had a VAX app you couldn't port for some odd reason the > premium seems ridiculous. If you are waiting on an ancient VAX to do > real work for you you obviously don't care about the speed of execution. > It will be like 9.5 hours instead of 10 to finish your job. I wouldn't make those sorts of assumptions. First of all, not all VAXen are slow. Next, speed of execution isn't always the #1 concern in computing, though as good American consumers, we've been trained to believe that it is, so we'll keep buying new hardware whether we need it or not. Think of the military. Would you rather stuff in that arena be running on something well-broken-in, dependable, maintainable, and ultra reliable, or the newest whiz-bang thing that may or may not have, say, ECC on the memory bus? > I hate thinking anything in the defense department is running on a > vaxstation 4000 still but, it's the government after all. They're fine machines. The Pentagon is filled to the brim with VAX 7000s, which are also fine machines. Rock solid, very fast, very predictable, and they run the stuff they need to run. What's not to like? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 21:14:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:14:24 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> Of course they are. But are the machines THEY are running on reliable enough? -Dave On 11/03/2011 10:05 PM, leaknoil wrote: > Are the VAX emulators not reliable enough for production installs yet ? > > On 11/3/2011 6:48 PM, Matthew Hudson wrote: >> Its the very top of the vaxstation line. If you're still running >> VAX/VMS legacy apps this is the machine you want. These are very hard >> to find these days. -Matt > -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 3 21:26:37 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:26:37 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/11/11 10:01 PM, leaknoil wrote: > I would think they would would re-release them at that price point. I > bet that box could be recreated today for very little. HP could use the > money. > On the face of it, but: ** They know they could only sell about 20, tops. ** The price is probably based on a similar calculation among buyers, of the total working population that will reach ebay in a reasonable time frame. --Toby > It's only like 20mhz faster then the 4000 which sells for $75 on ebay. > Even if you had a VAX app you couldn't port for some odd reason the > premium seems ridiculous. If you are waiting on an ancient VAX to do > real work for you you obviously don't care about the speed of execution. > It will be like 9.5 hours instead of 10 to finish your job. > > I hate thinking anything in the defense department is running on a > vaxstation 4000 still but, it's the government after all. > > On 11/3/2011 6:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Ohhhhh, a 4000-96. They always go for VERY serious cash. >> >> First of all, they're quite fast for being so small; often the fastest >> way to run VAX binaries without pulling gobs of electricity. Second, a >> lot of gov't agencies use them for some very specific software that >> only runs on VAXen. (the US Gov't is FULL of VAXen, specifically in >> defense sector) >> >> -Dave >> > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:31:05 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:31:05 -0500 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: dec built macheans to last unlike new stuff On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Of course they are. But are the machines THEY are running on reliable > enough? > > -Dave > > > On 11/03/2011 10:05 PM, leaknoil wrote: > >> Are the VAX emulators not reliable enough for production installs yet ? >> >> On 11/3/2011 6:48 PM, Matthew Hudson wrote: >> >>> Its the very top of the vaxstation line. If you're still running >>> VAX/VMS legacy apps this is the machine you want. These are very hard >>> to find these days. -Matt >>> >> >> > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:34:07 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:34:07 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB34F1F.4040203@gmail.com> The 7000 is a way different class of system. The 4000's were desktop workstations. Not even slightly the same build quality. More in line with SPARCStations that will never sell for $3,000. On 11/3/2011 7:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > They're fine machines. The Pentagon is filled to the brim with VAX > 7000s, which are also fine machines. Rock solid, very fast, very > predictable, and they run the stuff they need to run. What's not to > like? > > -Dave > From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:37:48 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:37:48 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 7:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > dec built macheans to last unlike new stuff > That's not really true. It just depends on how much you want to spend. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 21:37:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:37:57 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 10:26 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/11/11 10:01 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> I would think they would would re-release them at that price point. I >> bet that box could be recreated today for very little. HP could use the >> money. >> > > On the face of it, but: > > ** They know they could only sell about 20, tops. ** > > The price is probably based on a similar calculation among buyers, of > the total working population that will reach ebay in a reasonable time > frame. They'd actually sell a few hundred, but no more than that. DEC resellers have been buying these up every time they show up; I've watched this for nearly ten years now. They wouldn't do that if they didn't know they'd have a buyer. The real reason HP won't make more is because they've got fucking clueless incompetent idiots working in management. But we already knew that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:45:45 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:45:45 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 7:26 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/11/11 10:01 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> I would think they would would re-release them at that price point. I >> bet that box could be recreated today for very little. HP could use the >> money. >> > > On the face of it, but: > > ** They know they could only sell about 20, tops. ** > > The price is probably based on a similar calculation among buyers, of > the total working population that will reach ebay in a reasonable time > frame. > > --Toby I understand this of course. However I would imagine if a beat up one goes for $3,000 on ebay, from some random seller that couldn't take a GSA order in a million years, then I would think HP could charge $20k for them through official channels and get it. If its gone to a reseller at $3k it going to be sold for many times that to the government. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 21:47:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:47:06 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34F1F.4040203@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> <4EB34F1F.4040203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3522A.6020905@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 10:34 PM, leaknoil wrote: > The 7000 is a way different class of system. The 4000's were desktop > workstations. Not even slightly the same build quality. More in line > with SPARCStations that will never sell for $3,000. Yes I know, I have two 7000s and have missed out on countless 4000-96 machines due to the resellers snapping them up. The SPARCstations (apparently) weren't specced for something Important(tm) within DoD, while the 4000-96 was. That's not a theory, it's a well-known fact. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 21:47:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:47:42 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 10:37 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 7:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> dec built macheans to last unlike new stuff >> > > That's not really true. It just depends on how much you want to spend. Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 3 21:54:13 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:54:13 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB353D5.9020400@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/11/11 10:37 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 7:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> dec built macheans to last unlike new stuff >> > > That's not really true. It just depends on how much you want to spend. > And it always did - these DEC machines were not exactly cheap. --Toby From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:58:33 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:58:33 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 7:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > They'd actually sell a few hundred, but no more than that. DEC > resellers have been buying these up every time they show up; I've > watched this for nearly ten years now. They wouldn't do that if they > didn't know they'd have a buyer. > > The real reason HP won't make more is because they've got fucking > clueless incompetent idiots working in management. But we already > knew that. > > -Dave > Is does seem like HP will hire pretty much anyone as CEO these days. Meg Whitman ? I never saw that in a million years. She's never even worked at a computer hardware company in her life. The board of HP is out of their minds. What's the line on how long she lasts before being fired with a huge golden parachute ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 22:04:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:04:46 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 10:45 PM, leaknoil wrote: >>> I would think they would would re-release them at that price point. I >>> bet that box could be recreated today for very little. HP could use the >>> money. >> >> On the face of it, but: >> >> ** They know they could only sell about 20, tops. ** >> >> The price is probably based on a similar calculation among buyers, of >> the total working population that will reach ebay in a reasonable time >> frame. > > I understand this of course. However I would imagine if a beat up one > goes for $3,000 on ebay, from some random seller that couldn't take a > GSA order in a million years, then I would think HP could charge $20k > for them through official channels and get it. If its gone to a reseller > at $3k it going to be sold for many times that to the government. There's something here that's important to not lose sight of: This is not an isolated incident; resellers have been snapping these up left and right for years. Though they turn up much less frequently now than 2-3 years ago, 4000-96 machines still show up on eBay a few times per year. They always go for at least $500-700 in any condition, and sometimes $1500 or more. The price of the auction we're discussing is definitely an outlier, but because it wasn't $700, not because it wasn't $20. Hey, you're the one who asked for an explanation. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 3 22:09:24 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:09:24 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/11/11 10:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/03/2011 10:26 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 03/11/11 10:01 PM, leaknoil wrote: >>> I would think they would would re-release them at that price point. I >>> bet that box could be recreated today for very little. HP could use the >>> money. >>> >> >> On the face of it, but: >> >> ** They know they could only sell about 20, tops. ** >> >> The price is probably based on a similar calculation among buyers, of >> the total working population that will reach ebay in a reasonable time >> frame. > > They'd actually sell a few hundred, but no more than that. DEC resellers > have been buying these up every time they show up; I've watched this for > nearly ten years now. They wouldn't do that if they didn't know they'd > have a buyer. > > The real reason HP won't make more is because they've got fucking > clueless incompetent idiots working in management. But we already knew > that. A hundred or two, granted. But once you pay for development it won't buy many Bugattis for the CEO, will it. --T > > -Dave > From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 22:10:17 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:10:17 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 7:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running > great, while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) > > -Dave > You didn't spend enough. If you spent $9,000 on that 386 system in 1991 I bet it would still be working. I have a Sun 386i here that works perfectly and I could probably run over with my car and still boot up. In fact, not sure my cheap car could climb over it. Probably just push it down the road a ways. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Nov 3 22:16:34 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 20:16:34 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? Message-ID: <201111040317.pA43HD5K020324@billy.ezwind.net> Tell that to the DEC Multia on my shelf that's never worked right... :) Josh From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 22:18:35 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:18:35 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB353D5.9020400@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB353D5.9020400@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB3598B.1060000@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 7:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/11/11 10:37 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> On 11/3/2011 7:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> dec built macheans to last unlike new stuff >>> >> >> That's not really true. It just depends on how much you want to spend. >> > > And it always did - these DEC machines were not exactly cheap. > > --Toby True but, the others aren't worth $3,000 anymore. That's just what is curious to me. Lot of equally great hardware and OS's out there. DEC wasn't that special. I think it is something very specific that makes one worth $3k and the other $50. There is some app that it's connected too. The resellers know what this is. I don't think it's a general DoD thing. There are certain Alpha machines that get the same treatment yet better or equal machines are completely ignored. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 3 22:18:39 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201111040318.XAA00427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> dec built macheans to last unlike new stuff >> That's not really true. It just depends on how much you want to >> spend. > Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, > while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) While I can't really speak for someone else, I suspect the disagreement is not with the "DEC built to last" but with the "unlike new stuff". Off-the-shelf consumer peecees are crap for reliability; I doubt anyone would disagree with that. But if you're willing to spec out a machine that would cost, say, $1500 from Dell and then spend $3000 for the same specs instead, you can, if you know where to go, get one that _is_ built reliably. I've seen a few examples. It's just that they're hard to find amid the oceans of dreck, whereas DEC machines (from that era, at least) don't have hordes of race-to-the-bottom knockoffs making them look like trash. (Sun machines from the Sbus era, to name my own favourites, are in a similar situation in this regard.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 22:24:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:24:07 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB35AD7.5030001@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 10:58 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> The real reason HP won't make more is because they've got fucking >> clueless incompetent idiots working in management. But we already knew >> that. > > Is does seem like HP will hire pretty much anyone as CEO these days. Meg > Whitman ? I never saw that in a million years. She's never even worked > at a computer hardware company in her life. The board of HP is out of > their minds. What's the line on how long she lasts before being fired > with a huge golden parachute ? You're not kiddin'! Carly Fiorina's main qualifying attributes seemed to be her degree in history (!) and the idea that she was, at one time, almost attractive. Meg Whitman is at least an intelligent person. I think she has a chance at doing some good IF she breaks with American CEO tradition and listens to people who know how the business really works and take their advice. I think she'd do well in the execution but probably not the overall steering. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 22:31:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:31:54 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB35CAA.5060103@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 11:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> They'd actually sell a few hundred, but no more than that. DEC resellers >> have been buying these up every time they show up; I've watched this for >> nearly ten years now. They wouldn't do that if they didn't know they'd >> have a buyer. >> >> The real reason HP won't make more is because they've got fucking >> clueless incompetent idiots working in management. But we already knew >> that. > > A hundred or two, granted. But once you pay for development it won't buy > many Bugattis for the CEO, will it. Very true. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 22:33:20 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:33:20 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 8:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey, you're the one who asked for an explanation. ;) > > -Dave > Maybe the explanation I'm looking for is what in the world could possibly require a 4000-96 that could be done with something else. I mean it's a graphical workstation. It has to be a graphics app. Something that has nothing to do with speed, reliability, or graphics performance. Yet is tied to graphics in some way. In the Sun world you run into this occasionally with things like electron microscopes or mass spectrometers. Few out there still running off SPARCStation 5 or such. Usually tied to a Sbus card to interface to the real gear. Never run into this in dec workstation land. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 3 22:34:42 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:34:42 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB35D52.9090107@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/11/11 10:58 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 7:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> They'd actually sell a few hundred, but no more than that. DEC >> resellers have been buying these up every time they show up; I've >> watched this for nearly ten years now. They wouldn't do that if they >> didn't know they'd have a buyer. >> >> The real reason HP won't make more is because they've got fucking >> clueless incompetent idiots working in management. But we already knew >> that. >> >> -Dave >> > > Is does seem like HP will hire pretty much anyone as CEO these days. Meg > Whitman ? I never saw that in a million years. She's never even worked > at a computer hardware company in her life. The board of HP is out of > their minds. What's the line on how long she lasts before being fired > with a huge golden parachute ? > Oh, but we all gained a much deeper understanding of her genius through the gubernatorial run*. How we underestimated Ms Whitman! --Toby * http://www.followthemoney.org/press/PrintReportView.phtml?r=438 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 22:38:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:38:20 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB35E2C.4060408@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 11:10 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, >> while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) > > You didn't spend enough. If you spent $9,000 on that 386 system in 1991 > I bet it would still be working. I have a Sun 386i here that works > perfectly and I could probably run over with my car and still boot up. > In fact, not sure my cheap car could climb over it. Probably just push > it down the road a ways. I agree 100%! The 386i was a weird machine, but I miss mine. Fun stuff. I liked the idea of an 80386-based system that didn't even try to be "PC compatible" because that wasn't what they were looking to create. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 3 22:38:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:38:45 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com>, <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB2FBD5.11321.27B248E@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2011 at 19:58, leaknoil wrote: > Is does seem like HP will hire pretty much anyone as CEO these days. > Meg Whitman ? I never saw that in a million years. She's never even > worked at a computer hardware company in her life. The board of HP is > out of their minds. What's the line on how long she lasts before being > fired with a huge golden parachute ? Dunno. She's a "celebrity CEO", so I suspect her contract runs for a short time anyway. But very, *very* bad to first say that you're going out of the PC business and then turning around a short time later and pulling an Emily Latella. If you were a purchasing manager, would you consider HP to be serious about the PC business--or simply waiting for a good buyer? --Chuck From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 22:41:15 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:41:15 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 8:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > A hundred or two, granted. But once you pay for development it won't > buy many Bugattis for the CEO, will it. > > --T > It would be trivial to make a 100% compatible VS4000-96 box today. Guys on this list would probably be able to do it in a couple days. It would probably be the size of a mac mini and actually be more reliable too. Business opportunity for someone if they can get the licensing. That is probably impossibly of course. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 22:43:25 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 22:43:25 -0500 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> Message-ID: lol i've got a dec 486 system on the shelf that was working last time i toyed with it think its a 380 or something but i can't remember kinda 800kms away from home working or i would pop into the closit and have a looksee figured it was a nice compact 486 worth keeping On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:10 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 7:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, >> while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) >> >> -Dave >> >> You didn't spend enough. If you spent $9,000 on that 386 system in 1991 > I bet it would still be working. I have a Sun 386i here that works > perfectly and I could probably run over with my car and still boot up. In > fact, not sure my cheap car could climb over it. Probably just push it down > the road a ways. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 3 22:50:35 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:50:35 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/11/11 11:10 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 7:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, >> while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) >> >> -Dave >> > You didn't spend enough. If you spent $9,000 on that 386 system in 1991 > I bet it would still be working. I have a Sun 386i here that works > perfectly and I could probably run over with my car and still boot up. > In fact, not sure my cheap car could climb over it. Probably just push > it down the road a ways. > I think you hit the nail on the head. My 1980s era Suns & DECs are alive and well, and indestructible. The point is they also cost as much as a luxury car back then. --T From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 3 22:53:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:53:45 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3598B.1060000@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB353D5.9020400@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB3598B.1060000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB361C9.40002@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 11:18 PM, leaknoil wrote: >>>> dec built macheans to last unlike new stuff >>> >>> That's not really true. It just depends on how much you want to spend. >> >> And it always did - these DEC machines were not exactly cheap. > > True but, the others aren't worth $3,000 anymore. That's just what is > curious to me. Lot of equally great hardware and OS's out there. DEC > wasn't that special. I think it is something very specific that makes > one worth $3k and the other $50. There is some app that it's connected > too. The resellers know what this is. I don't think it's a general DoD > thing. There are certain Alpha machines that get the same treatment yet > better or equal machines are completely ignored. You're missing the point my friend...it's not a "general DoD thing", it's a SPECIFIC DoD thing. The same thing happens with AlphaStation 500s. They are nice machines, but nowhere near as nice as others...and they fetch $300+, where nicer ones can be had for <$100. Specific makes AND MODELS of machines are frequently specced for projects and services. This is why crazy stuff like this happens. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 3 22:53:54 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:53:54 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111040317.pA43HD5K020324@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201111040317.pA43HD5K020324@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EB361D2.4020008@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/11/11 11:16 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Tell that to the DEC Multia on my shelf that's never worked right... :) > > Josh A known lemon! After reading about the thermal design problems I was too scared to power mine up. --T From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 23:05:53 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:05:53 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35AD7.5030001@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> <4EB35AD7.5030001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB364A1.5010101@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 8:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > You're not kiddin'! Carly Fiorina's main qualifying attributes > seemed to be her degree in history (!) and the idea that she was, at > one time, almost attractive. > > Meg Whitman is at least an intelligent person. I think she has a > chance at doing some good IF she breaks with American CEO tradition > and listens to people who know how the business really works and take > their advice. I think she'd do well in the execution but probably not > the overall steering. > > -Dave > Ebay was, and is, a monopoly. They are pretty easy to run. Before that she was an executive dealing with kids and toy products. We'll see. I see nothing in her resume that would make me think she can turn around HP. Already they've flip flopped on killing of the PC division and then not killing it off in the same week. Killing off webos or not. Maybe she is just there to wind it down. I could see that. She is fully qualified to gracefully shut down a company without causing a lot of ripples in the market. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 3 23:28:44 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 00:28:44 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB369FC.5000502@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/11/11 11:33 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 8:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Hey, you're the one who asked for an explanation. ;) >> >> -Dave >> > Maybe the explanation I'm looking for is what in the world could > possibly require a 4000-96 that could be done with something else. I > mean it's a graphical workstation. It has to be a graphics app. > Something that has nothing to do with speed, reliability, or graphics > performance. Yet is tied to graphics in some way. > I think that was already explained: existing applications that run on VAX under rather specific conditions that make emulators infeasible. The military connection is realistic; fairly recently I heard of military aircraft simulators still running on VAX-11/780. Imagine the headaches of keeping that going... but those headaches are still less than finding an alternative. --Toby > In the Sun world you run into this occasionally with things like > electron microscopes or mass spectrometers. Few out there still running > off SPARCStation 5 or such. Usually tied to a Sbus card to interface to > the real gear. Never run into this in dec workstation land. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 23:29:37 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:29:37 -0500 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: ever herd of hardware locks? theres allot of software out there that does this and emulation sometimes just plane is missing this and i would suspect theres hardware keys that are locked to certan peacs of hardwae types From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 23:38:14 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:38:14 -0500 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> Message-ID: if its dod u will need to make it secure... From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 23:38:31 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:38:31 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB2FBD5.11321.27B248E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com>, <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> <4EB2FBD5.11321.27B248E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB36C47.1090108@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 8:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you were a purchasing manager, would you consider HP to be serious > about the PC business--or simply waiting for a good buyer? --Chuck My feelings exactly. She's not really the right person to run HP as a company but, totally perfect to sell it or wind it down. Although, they've picked people unqualified before. It is hard to tell. Maybe the real problem is the HP board. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 23:41:43 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 00:41:43 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35E2C.4060408@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB35E2C.4060408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Nov 3, 2011, at 11:38 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I agree 100%! The 386i was a weird machine, but I miss mine. Fun stuff. I liked the idea of an 80386-based system that didn't even try to be "PC compatible" because that wasn't what they were looking to create. Agreed; more of the same might put me off my general distaste for the 8086 architecture. I have a hard time getting behind a platform that still has such an awful hack as the A20 gate built into it. I found out what that BIOS setting meant (and the history behind it) when I was trying to boot OpenBSD on a machine with a wonky A20 implementation emulation, and I was actually enraged (still am, to an extent). - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 23:48:17 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:48:17 -0500 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: yea and even expensive stuff now is flimsy On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/11/11 11:10 PM, leaknoil wrote: > >> On 11/3/2011 7:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> >>> Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, >>> while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> You didn't spend enough. If you spent $9,000 on that 386 system in 1991 >> I bet it would still be working. I have a Sun 386i here that works >> perfectly and I could probably run over with my car and still boot up. >> In fact, not sure my cheap car could climb over it. Probably just push >> it down the road a ways. >> >> > > I think you hit the nail on the head. My 1980s era Suns & DECs are alive > and well, and indestructible. The point is they also cost as much as a > luxury car back then. > > --T > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Nov 3 23:58:56 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:58:56 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB37110.10908@mail.msu.edu> On 11/3/2011 8:50 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/11/11 11:10 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> On 11/3/2011 7:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, >>> while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> You didn't spend enough. If you spent $9,000 on that 386 system in 1991 >> I bet it would still be working. I have a Sun 386i here that works >> perfectly and I could probably run over with my car and still boot up. >> In fact, not sure my cheap car could climb over it. Probably just push >> it down the road a ways. >> > > > I think you hit the nail on the head. My 1980s era Suns & DECs are > alive and well, and indestructible. The point is they also cost as > much as a luxury car back then. On the 386 front, I have an IBM PS/2 Model 80 ($10k in 1987) which still works perfectly (after replacing the NVRAM battery...). (It's really quite an ugly looking thing, but I have this odd affection for MCA machines). Anecdotal evidence at best, but then we seem to thrive on that here... - Josh > > --T From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 23:59:05 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:59:05 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB361C9.40002@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB353D5.9020400@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB3598B.1060000@gmail.com> <4EB361C9.40002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB37119.9010605@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 8:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > You're missing the point my friend...it's not a "general DoD thing", > it's a SPECIFIC DoD thing. The same thing happens with AlphaStation > 500s. They are nice machines, but nowhere near as nice as > others...and they fetch $300+, where nicer ones can be had for <$100. > > Specific makes AND MODELS of machines are frequently specced for > projects and services. This is why crazy stuff like this happens. > > -Dave > Maybe that is what's driving me crazy. What is it and why can't it be ported ? Seriously, I will volunteer to port the damn thing if it will lower my taxes $10 a year. Even if it doesn't I will do it anyway. I really would rather no part of the of the national defense ran off any VAX hardware and I love VAX stuff. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Nov 4 00:00:20 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:00:20 -0700 Subject: (Apologies) Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111040317.pA43HD5K020324@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201111040317.pA43HD5K020324@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EB37164.9040307@mail.msu.edu> Sorry, this got completely divorced from its original context (was meant to be a reply to Dave) by the "wonderful" web interface to my mail I was using. (My normal desktop machine is offline, due to a pending move...) - Josh On 11/3/2011 8:16 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Tell that to the DEC Multia on my shelf that's never worked right... :) > > Josh From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 00:26:59 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:26:59 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB377A3.40400@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 9:29 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > ever herd of hardware locks? theres allot of software out there that does > this and emulation sometimes just plane is missing this > > and i would suspect theres hardware keys that are locked to certan peacs of > hardwae types Keys will be locked to the mac address or some other nvram sort of deal. Buying another machine wont help you out one bit. From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 00:32:54 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:32:54 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 9:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > if its dod u will need to make it secure. please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 01:07:40 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:07:40 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB37110.10908@mail.msu.edu> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB37110.10908@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4EB3812C.2030709@gmail.com> On 11/3/2011 9:58 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > On the 386 front, I have an IBM PS/2 Model 80 ($10k in 1987) which > still works perfectly (after replacing the NVRAM battery...). (It's > really quite an ugly looking thing, but I have this odd affection for > MCA machines). Anecdotal evidence at best, but then we seem to thrive > on that here... > > - Josh > I love the ps/2 look. I think it is highly under rated. I would put it up against any mac design. That as someone that never would have used one. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 4 01:11:09 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Again packing of classic computers In-Reply-To: <4EB312E5.7090409@neurotica.com> References: <004301cc9a73$c2786b50$476941f0$@xs4all.nl> <4EB312E5.7090409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/03/2011 05:58 PM, Rik Bos wrote: >> Well I bought a HP 9845B from a German seller, the m**** putted the whole >> thing in a box with some airbags. >> >> And of cause (TONY DON'T READ THIS) the monitor came loose of the case and >> destroyed the monitor posts ;-) >> >> Sh** why can't they pack classic computers in a decent way. >> >> I'm getting very disappointed in epray, every time I find a nice bargain >> the >> destroy it by shipping it the wrong way. > > Surely eBay isn't to blame for that? Anyone who buys from me can be well-assured of good packing. I've sold stuff to several people here. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From technobug at comcast.net Fri Nov 4 01:20:46 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 23:20:46 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 99, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51EE5D9F-4752-4C8F-8557-01243BDEE710@comcast.net> On Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:01:41 -0700, leaknoil wrote: > I hate thinking anything in the defense department is running on a > vaxstation 4000 still but, it's the government after all. On Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:13:53 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Besides, remember how procedure-oriented the US Gov't is. It's the > world's best refuge for people who are incapable of independent thought, > because there are rule books and procedure books for EVERYTHING. If > said book says "thou shall run this on a VAX4000-96", even if a good old > 3100-M38 would do the job just fine at about $20.00, you'll sign the P.O. There are a lot of reasons that old equipment is (re)purchased by the Government, especially the Department of Defense. Most of the equipment in question is not sitting on someone's desk running a spread sheet, but is generally part of production equipment - especially test equipment. A production line is shut down and the contractor is allowed to close down and disperse the line. A then an action or foreign customer comes along and the contractor is called upon to reopen the line, generally on a short leash. At that point the contractor can purchase new equipment (cheap), re-engineer and program the line (not so cheap and generally not quick), and re-certify the new line (not cheap and definitely not timely). This of course requires re-engineering and building the certification stations. Or the contractor can scrounge around and rebuild the line as originally constituted. The equipment isn't inexpensive for what it is, but the line is reconstituted by a bunch of techs in a fairly short time. The engineering and software is done and the unit stands certified as built. A good number of years ago Hughes Aircrash shut down the TOW missile line and after storing the production equipment for a number of years was allowed to auction off the obsolete equipment. One of the many messes that we seem to be continually caught up in used up a goodly number to the missiles that were laying around and Hughes was asked to make more. They had a team of people running around buying up the old equipment wherever they could. An acquaintance got several times the new price for a HP 2115 that he had stored. I chatted with an engineer and questioned the wisdom of buying and using old equipment. They had a bonus riding on getting production going in a fairly short period and the cost of going that route was a very, very small fraction of re-engineer the line. The moral here is that paying $3k for an old VAX might in fact be saving $300k... -> CRC From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 01:25:30 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 02:25:30 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3855A.6030600@gmail.com> leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 9:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> if its dod u will need to make it secure. > > please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a > current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. That's a load. There was a security competition at a recent HOPE, and the VMS box won. Peace... Sridhar From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 01:31:28 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 01:31:28 -0500 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3812C.2030709@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB37110.10908@mail.msu.edu> <4EB3812C.2030709@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:07 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 9:58 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> >> On the 386 front, I have an IBM PS/2 Model 80 ($10k in 1987) which still >> works perfectly (after replacing the NVRAM battery...). (It's really >> quite an ugly looking thing, but I have this odd affection for MCA >> machines). Anecdotal evidence at best, but then we seem to thrive on that >> here... >> >> - Josh >> >> I love the ps/2 look. I think it is highly under rated. I would put it > up against any mac design. That as someone that never would have used one. > indeed speacly those p25 and later faster models of simlar styling my elementry school had some with cd drives the p70 is an interesting machean even got rebranded as a even more expensive model called a ge workmaster 2 witch still go for 100-1000 depending on condition From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Nov 4 01:49:08 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 07:49:08 +0100 Subject: Fastest Vax? [Was: Can anyone explain this to me ?] In-Reply-To: <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB38AE4.4040405@update.uu.se> On 11/04/2011 03:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > *Which* 4000? There are VAX 4000 models made with at least three > different CPU implementations, which have wildly varying levels of > performance, even clock-for-clock. MHz isn't an effective measure of > computer performance. So what is the fastest VAX? Just looking blindly at VUPS: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/full.html 4000/96A (Cougar++, KA49-C): 48.7 Vups 6660 (Neptune, KA66A): 150 Vups VAX 7860 (Laser/Krypton+): 300 Vups The 7860 seems to be the winner but it is a multi processor machine. Is the Vups measure per processor? /P From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Nov 4 01:55:29 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 07:55:29 +0100 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB38C61.8080305@update.uu.se> On 11/04/2011 03:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > They're fine machines. The Pentagon is filled to the brim with VAX > 7000s, which are also fine machines. Rock solid, very fast, very > predictable, and they run the stuff they need to run. What's not to > like? Still? According to: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sys.pdp11/browse_thread/thread/8994561af12ce621/89d4e14a95253b29 They took a bit of a beating. It would be interesting to hear what was taken out and if the managed to replace it. I suppose its very secret though :) /P From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 08:07:58 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 09:07:58 -0400 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? Message-ID: A friend said that he has a collection of NOS 4000 series CMOS ICs. If there is any interest I will get them so they don't go in the trash. -- Michael Thompson From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 3 09:04:12 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:04:12 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <976583073.719865.1320268930805.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <976583073.719865.1320268930805.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxltgw03.schlund.de> Message-ID: <1320329052.29821.31.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Wed, 2011-11-02 at 21:22 +0000, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > FDC emulator. We also have tons and tons of information on the SPS > website about how things work (WIPs). The problem as I see it is that some of the WIPs (e.g. the one covering RNC Copylock Amiga track re-generation) are outright incomplete. They state that the data can be regenerated from the seed value, but do not explain how this is done. This is the type of information I'd like to see, and indeed is the type of information I'm trying to collate and disseminate via the DiscFerret Wiki: http://discferret.com/wiki/Category:Disc_formats -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pinball at telus.net Thu Nov 3 11:35:30 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:35:30 -0700 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB2C2D2.8080705@telus.net> Michael Thompson wrote: > A friend said that he has a collection of NOS 4000 series CMOS ICs. > If there is any interest I will get them so they don't go in the trash. > > If he has a large supply he could sell/donate them to someone like http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ Otherwise small shops like mine would be somewhat interested - but we don't use a lot of these in our coin-operated game repairs. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 3 11:39:55 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:39:55 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EB16E81.6050602@bitsavers.org> <201111021728.NAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1320338395.29821.33.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Wed, 2011-11-02 at 13:28 -0400, Mouse wrote: > Of course, given that documentation, there's no need for any of their > software. Even if they're right that nearly nobody understands how to > go between flux patterns and data, that's fixable. By watching the series of DiscFerret training livestreams I'm toying with the idea of running over the Newtonmas and New Year holiday? Oops. I've let the cat out of the bag now....! -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pinball at telus.net Thu Nov 3 11:41:23 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:41:23 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EB1E3D8.8010304@brouhaha.com> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> <4EB1E3D8.8010304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB2C433.5010306@telus.net> Eric Smith wrote: > John Robertson wrote: > > Has anyone tried to read the data from the Mostek 3851 > > PSU (ROM, I/O) used with the 3850? > > I've read them in the past. Must have been around 1992 or so. I used > a single-board computer based on the R6511Q microcontroller > (6502-based), and wired the 3851 bus to GPIO port pins. There was > simple firmware in 6502 assembly language, and it output the contents > in S-record format out a serial port. The firmware generated all of > the control signals for the 3851, including the clock, by > bit-banging. IIRC, there was a minimum clock frequency spec for the > 3851, but I didn't have any trouble meeting it. I did NOT try to > ensure that all clock cycles were the same duration, which would have > required cycle-counting various code paths, but the 3851 didn't care. > > Alas, I don't have the code any more, but that probably doesn't matter > much since it's unlikely that one could find a 6511Q board. > > Regrettably I don't have time to develop another 3851 reader, but I > don't recall there having been anything fundamentally difficult about > it. Reading the 3870 single-chip micro is considerably more tricky. > > Thanks, I hadn't considered minimum clock speed as a factor. I'll read the data sheets deeper and check on that. If you could read them with a 6502 based system then I should be able to wire up an adapter for my Fluke 9010A's 6502 pod to enable me to do a data dump... Fortunately I have what appears to be the same code in the two 3851s as in the redesigned 3870 board so reading those should give me useful code (perhaps with slight address massaging) to work in the 38P70 test CPU. Then on to designing a replacement for the 3870 once I have good code! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 3 12:07:53 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:07:53 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1320340073.29821.35.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Wed, 2011-11-02 at 23:32 +0000, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > People, until > recently, couldn't create IPF files themselves. The IPF library source > is now available, so people now can do it if they want, so the comment > doesn't really apply anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that: 1) The IPF library was read-only 2) There were no publicly-available documents covering the IPF file format 3) No documents have been released as part of the source dump (thus satisfying (2)) Thus, creating an IPF would involve reverse-engineering the format from the source code (which I have not examined closely, but appears to be somewhat Windows-centric and lightly commented based on the few files I've examined). Once the format was r/e'd, you could then write a library to create IPFs... Seems a lot of work. I'd rather put the effort into writing a .MFI (MESS Floppy Image) R/W library... > I admit that we (SPS) have taken too long to do some things - stuff now > rectified. But we seem to get bashed in here whenever we or KryoFlux > is mentioned for reasons I don't really understand. I'm going to pull out a 9mm and shoot myself in the foot here. * Kryoflux and DiscFerret are two separate things. * Kryoflux does a good job of imaging most floppy discs * Key differences between DiscFerret and Kryoflux: * DiscFerret uses "store and forward" acquisition. KryoFlux (AIUI) streams data directly to the PC. This means DiscFerret is slightly slower to read and write discs (by around 1 minute). * DiscFerret has more usable I/O lines, plus the 4-bit bidirectional High Speed I/O link (four pins which may be programmed for any purpose; GPIO, SPI, etc. and used for I/O expansion) * DiscFerret captures data at a much higher resolution (approx. 4x Kryoflux's peak rate, and twice the Mk4 Catweasel). This means you can image hard drives (ST506 type) and 2.88MB floppy discs, with suitable adapter cables. * DiscFerret has full support for both hard-sectored and soft-sectored media, including reading individual sectors. CW could do this too, AIUI. On the down side, DiscFerret is currently lacking in software. I have a tweaked version of CWTOOL which sort-of works with DFI images, but falls over quite a lot. Disc reading works, but writing needs work (mainly timing characterisation and modelling). > the KryoFlux personal edition is > in fact sold at a massive loss when you factor in the time we spend on > it. The DiscFerret is no better. They're sold more or less at cost... -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 3 12:13:45 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:13:45 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Wed, 2011-11-02 at 07:30 -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'll continue using the Catweasel and my various other boxes to make > images and hope that Philip gets the support software for DiscFerret > fleshed out in the near future. The software is being worked on by myself and two other developers. We have an IRC channel on Freenode (irc.freenode.net), predictably enough called #discferret. And I'm always on the lookout for more developers :) > Philip? You've been very quiet lately. How's progress? I've been quiet for several reasons: 1) I tend to stay out of OT discussions, and there have been a lot of those on-list recently. 2) Every time I've commented on a thread like this, I've been dragged into some type of flame battle. Some people really don't like the idea of alternatives being mentioned -- to the extent that I mentioned the DiscFerret on one classiccmp web-forum, and ended up having ALL my posts removed (several dozen messages), and my account blocked. Complete with a message from the admin to the effect of "your opensource project harms commercial interests, and we have few enough commercial suppliers left as it is". I've stopped trying... As I've said elsethread, I see the three devices as serving different parts of the same market: - Kryoflux -- hobbyists who "just want a disc image". Turn-key, no fiddly switches or buttons to press. - DiscFerret and (to some degree) Catweasel -- Tinkerers. People who want to look under the hood, see how things are done. The sort of folks who buy a car, then immediately go out and buy the Workshop Manual, Haynes manual and all the special tools required. If SPS (or anyone else) wants to use some of my research, they're welcome to do so under standard academic terms -- provide credit ("cite your sources!"). For the pages on the DiscFerret wiki which I didn't write (look at the history), credit the original author... Similarly I'd expect any research done on the subject (or at least that based on my research) to be released under a fair and non-discriminatory policy. GFDL, Creative Commons Atribution-ShareAlike, something like that. Cheers, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pinball at telus.net Thu Nov 3 14:19:11 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:19:11 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EB2C433.5010306@telus.net> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> <4EB1E3D8.8010304@brouhaha.com> <4EB2C433.5010306@telus.net> Message-ID: <4EB2E92F.8080301@telus.net> John Robertson wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >> John Robertson wrote: >> > Has anyone tried to read the data from the Mostek 3851 >> > PSU (ROM, I/O) used with the 3850? >> >> I've read them in the past. Must have been around 1992 or so. I >> used a single-board computer based on the R6511Q microcontroller >> (6502-based), and wired the 3851 bus to GPIO port pins. There was >> simple firmware in 6502 assembly language, and it output the contents >> in S-record format out a serial port. The firmware generated all of >> the control signals for the 3851, including the clock, by >> bit-banging. IIRC, there was a minimum clock frequency spec for the >> 3851, but I didn't have any trouble meeting it. I did NOT try to >> ensure that all clock cycles were the same duration, which would have >> required cycle-counting various code paths, but the 3851 didn't care. >> >> Alas, I don't have the code any more, but that probably doesn't >> matter much since it's unlikely that one could find a 6511Q board. >> >> Regrettably I don't have time to develop another 3851 reader, but I >> don't recall there having been anything fundamentally difficult about >> it. Reading the 3870 single-chip micro is considerably more tricky. >> >> > Thanks, I hadn't considered minimum clock speed as a factor. I'll read > the data sheets deeper and check on that. If you could read them with > a 6502 based system then I should be able to wire up an adapter for my > Fluke 9010A's 6502 pod to enable me to do a data dump... > > Fortunately I have what appears to be the same code in the two 3851s > as in the redesigned 3870 board so reading those should give me useful > code (perhaps with slight address massaging) to work in the 38P70 test > CPU. Then on to designing a replacement for the 3870 once I have good > code! > > John :-#)# > Ah, worse than I thought. One has to send a sequence of data to the 3851 to read each byte. Gah. I don't have the programming skills to do this, nor the time to learn right now... John :-#(# From ohh at panix.com Thu Nov 3 19:23:11 2011 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 20:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>>> It's a promotional picture, I'm guessing this is just like the 8/I >>>> pedistal, a >>>> one-off that never sold. >> >> Perhaps it was. A shame if so. > > There is also the possibility that it never existed - just a model, an > empty box. I can't speak to the 8/I specifically, but I have seen a pedestal-mount PDP-11 - either an 11/40, or 11/45 - in the wild with my own eyes. It was part of an early theatrical light-board controller, in Seattle's Opera House some time during the '70s. I had a look at it during the mid-90s, long after it was decommissioned, at the bottom of a long ramp wih other assorted disused equipment (not to mention a supply of leaking sandbags). I asked about it and was told the City was hanging onto it, the way they did most of their retired equipment, "just in case". One of my biggest regrets as a collector was that I didn't ask again about it, or put a note on it, or something, since it was unceremoniously tossed into a dumpster when they remodeled the building a few years later. I found out too late, and even talked to one of my theatrical colleagues who specifically remembered dumpstering it. Arrrrgh. -O.- From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:11:06 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 02:11:06 -0500 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB38C61.8080305@update.uu.se> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> <4EB38C61.8080305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: wow that mailing list is older then i though On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:55 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 11/04/2011 03:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> They're fine machines. The Pentagon is filled to the brim with VAX >> 7000s, which are also fine machines. Rock solid, very fast, very >> predictable, and they run the stuff they need to run. What's not to like? >> > > Still? According to: > > http://groups.google.com/**group/alt.sys.pdp11/browse_**thread/thread/** > 8994561af12ce621/**89d4e14a95253b29 > > They took a bit of a beating. > > It would be interesting to hear what was taken out and if the managed to > replace it. I suppose its very secret though :) > > /P > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 02:24:59 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 02:24:59 -0500 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <4EB2C2D2.8080705@telus.net> References: <4EB2C2D2.8080705@telus.net> Message-ID: would any of them be good with the prom program that came with the intel mds225 On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:35 AM, John Robertson wrote: > Michael Thompson wrote: > >> A friend said that he has a collection of NOS 4000 series CMOS ICs. >> If there is any interest I will get them so they don't go in the trash. >> >> >> > If he has a large supply he could sell/donate them to someone like > http://www.unicornelectronics.**com/ > > Otherwise small shops like mine would be somewhat interested - but we > don't use a lot of these in our coin-operated game repairs. > > John :-#)# > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call > (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip > out" > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 03:09:45 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 03:09:45 -0500 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: <20111103074129.GA13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103094259.GD13405@Update.UU.SE> <20111103154052.GD5336@Update.UU.SE> <4EB2B900.5060409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: owtch u think thats bad i missed out on a several 11/23's and 11/73's and perifials manuals and software 2 yrs ago that all got bulldozed to the ground along with 100,000 vacume tubes On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 7:23 PM, O. Sharp wrote: > > It's a promotional picture, I'm guessing this is just like the 8/I >>>>> pedistal, a >>>>> one-off that never sold. >>>>> >>>> >>> Perhaps it was. A shame if so. >>> >> >> There is also the possibility that it never existed - just a model, an >> empty box. >> > > I can't speak to the 8/I specifically, but I have seen a pedestal-mount > PDP-11 - either an 11/40, or 11/45 - in the wild with my own eyes. It was > part of an early theatrical light-board controller, in Seattle's Opera > House some time during the '70s. I had a look at it during the mid-90s, > long after it was decommissioned, at the bottom of a long ramp wih other > assorted disused equipment (not to mention a supply of leaking sandbags). I > asked about it and was told the City was hanging onto it, the way they did > most of their retired equipment, "just in case". > > One of my biggest regrets as a collector was that I didn't ask again about > it, or put a note on it, or something, since it was unceremoniously tossed > into a dumpster when they remodeled the building a few years later. I found > out too late, and even talked to one of my theatrical colleagues who > specifically remembered dumpstering it. Arrrrgh. > > -O.- > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 4 03:20:58 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 01:20:58 -0700 Subject: Reading obsolete ICs... Mostek 3851 PSU In-Reply-To: <4EB2C433.5010306@telus.net> References: <4EAB09CE.3050501@telus.net> <4EB1E3D8.8010304@brouhaha.com> <4EB2C433.5010306@telus.net> Message-ID: <4EB3A06A.9020204@brouhaha.com> John Robertson wrote: > I hadn't considered minimum clock speed as a factor. The 3851 maximum clock period is 10 us (i.e., minimum clock frequency 100 kHz). I think I was probably running the 6511Q at 2 MHz. (Maybe it was a 6511AQ.) I probably wasn't actually meeting the 3851 maximum clock period spec; I don't remember what the actual timing ended up at. At 5V and room temperature, the part will probably operate OK to a fair bit slower than the spec. > Fortunately I have what appears to be the same code in the two > 3851s as in the redesigned 3870 board so reading those should > give me useful code (perhaps with slight address massaging) to > work in the 38P70 test CPU. Then on to designing a replacement > for the 3870 once I have good code! Bear in mind that the timer in the 3851 works differently than the timer in the 3870 series, so any code using the timer may not be portable between the two. The 3851 timer is a twisted ring counter, so it doesn't count in normal sequential binary. The count sequence is given in the documentation. The 3870 counter is a binary counter. From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Fri Nov 4 02:17:59 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:17:59 +1100 Subject: Fastest Vax? [Was: Can anyone explain this to me ?] In-Reply-To: <4EB38AE4.4040405@update.uu.se> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> <4EB38AE4.4040405@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 04/11/2011, at 5:49 PM, Pontus wrote: > > So what is the fastest VAX? Just looking blindly at VUPS: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/full.html > > 4000/96A (Cougar++, KA49-C): 48.7 Vups > 6660 (Neptune, KA66A): 150 Vups > VAX 7860 (Laser/Krypton+): 300 Vups > > The 7860 seems to be the winner but it is a multi processor machine. Is the Vups measure per processor? It's been a while but the figure you have for the 7860 is total - dividing by 6 gives about 50 VUPs per CPU which is about right as I'm fairly sure it's the same CPU chip as the 96A. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 05:56:03 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 06:56:03 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme Message-ID: > From:?David Griffith > > Here's a variation of the pdp 11/70 with a chocolate-brown and white color scheme: ?http://661.org/images/csis1170.jpg > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu The Rhode Island Computer Museum has two 11/70 panels from CSI. The CSI systems ran a regional newspaper. -- Michael Thompson From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 07:38:49 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 08:38:49 -0400 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <4EB2C2D2.8080705@telus.net> References: <4EB2C2D2.8080705@telus.net> Message-ID: <97E76774-1052-4875-92E1-A6F019A6D923@gmail.com> On Nov 3, 2011, at 12:35 PM, John Robertson wrote: > Michael Thompson wrote: >> A friend said that he has a collection of NOS 4000 series CMOS ICs. >> If there is any interest I will get them so they don't go in the trash. >> >> > If he has a large supply he could sell/donate them to someone like http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ Jameco, also; I've gotten quite a few older ICs to fix my Defender boards (particularly 4116 RAM chips, which seem to be hard to find for less than an arm and a leg each anywhere else, unless I'm looking in the wrong places) from them. CMOS ICs are in a slightly different class, but he might be able to get better than scrap for them. I've very little use for them myself. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 4 08:08:31 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:08:31 -0400 Subject: Usenet - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> <4EB38C61.8080305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4EB3E3CF.5010009@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/11 3:11 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > wow that mailing list is older then i though Mailing list? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet It's older than a lot of people on *this* mailing list. --Toby > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:55 AM, Pontus wrote: > >> On 11/04/2011 03:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> >>> They're fine machines. The Pentagon is filled to the brim with VAX >>> 7000s, which are also fine machines. Rock solid, very fast, very >>> predictable, and they run the stuff they need to run. What's not to like? >>> >> >> Still? According to: >> >> http://groups.google.com/**group/alt.sys.pdp11/browse_**thread/thread/** >> 8994561af12ce621/**89d4e14a95253b29 >> >> They took a bit of a beating. >> >> It would be interesting to hear what was taken out and if the managed to >> replace it. I suppose its very secret though :) >> >> /P >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 4 08:18:06 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:18:06 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB37119.9010605@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB353D5.9020400@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB3598B.1060000@gmail.com> <4EB361C9.40002@neurotica.com> <4EB37119.9010605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3E60E.3030303@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/11 12:59 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 8:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> You're missing the point my friend...it's not a "general DoD thing", >> it's a SPECIFIC DoD thing. The same thing happens with AlphaStation >> 500s. They are nice machines, but nowhere near as nice as others...and >> they fetch $300+, where nicer ones can be had for <$100. >> >> Specific makes AND MODELS of machines are frequently specced for >> projects and services. This is why crazy stuff like this happens. >> >> -Dave >> > Maybe that is what's driving me crazy. What is it and why can't it be > ported ? Impractical porting situations include the one I mentioned: ageing military helicopter simulator. A little contemplation shows not only that it would be a *very* expensive and difficult proposition up front, but one has to consider the diminishing return of that. It all looks a bit like care of an elderly convalescent. The patient will die eventually, but you can't just leave them lying on the side of the road.* > Seriously, I will volunteer to port the damn thing if it will > lower my taxes $10 a year. You probably should start questioning the military budget en bloc, if you want value for your taxes. It's a democracy right? --T * - of course I'm referring to health care outside the USA. > Even if it doesn't I will do it anyway. I > really would rather no part of the of the national defense ran off any > VAX hardware and I love VAX stuff. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 4 08:18:40 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:18:40 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB3E630.9010506@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/11 12:48 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea and even expensive stuff now is flimsy > Dunno, I haven't checked under the hood of a Ferrari lately. Have you? --T > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Toby Thainwrote: > >> On 03/11/11 11:10 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> >>> On 11/3/2011 7:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, >>>> while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> You didn't spend enough. If you spent $9,000 on that 386 system in 1991 >>> I bet it would still be working. I have a Sun 386i here that works >>> perfectly and I could probably run over with my car and still boot up. >>> In fact, not sure my cheap car could climb over it. Probably just push >>> it down the road a ways. >>> >>> >> >> I think you hit the nail on the head. My 1980s era Suns& DECs are alive >> and well, and indestructible. The point is they also cost as much as a >> luxury car back then. >> >> --T >> > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 08:18:48 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:18:48 -0400 Subject: Usenet - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3E3CF.5010009@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> <4EB38C61.8080305@update.uu.se> <4EB3E3CF.5010009@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2011, at 9:08 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/11/11 3:11 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> wow that mailing list is older then i though > > Mailing list? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet > > It's older than a lot of people on *this* mailing list. Yeah, I was wondering when someone was going to catch that one. :-) - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 4 08:21:01 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:21:01 -0400 Subject: HP board shenanigans - Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB36C47.1090108@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com>, <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> <4EB2FBD5.11321.27B248E@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB36C47.1090108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3E6BD.9010904@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/11 12:38 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 8:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If you were a purchasing manager, would you consider HP to be serious >> about the PC business--or simply waiting for a good buyer? --Chuck > > My feelings exactly. She's not really the right person to run HP as a > company but, totally perfect to sell it or wind it down. Although, > they've picked people unqualified before. It is hard to tell. Maybe the > real problem is the HP board. Surprised nobody has mentioned the phone hacking business and all the money they've blown on golden parachutes. So you may have a point there. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 4 08:22:51 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:22:51 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3E72B.4050806@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/11 1:32 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 9:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> if its dod u will need to make it secure. > > please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a > current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. > That's very insightful. The x86 has a fantastic security record. I'd certainly pick it immediately over some unproven, obscure technology like VAX. However, I'd still have to be careful about choice of operating system, judging by news headlines. I'd avoid OpenBSD, for sure! --Toby From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 08:33:04 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:33:04 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > First of all, they're quite fast for being so small; often the fastest > way to run VAX binaries without pulling gobs of electricity. Second, a lot > of gov't agencies use them for some very specific software that only runs > on VAXen. (the US Gov't is FULL of VAXen, specifically in defense sector) > > -Dave I remember an article from the 80s - I think from Byte or Compute - going over the very rough architecture of the DoD's computer systems. It was pretty much all DEC. Mention was made of an entire datacenter of 11/785s with maxxed-out memory that acted as a disk cache for the storage cluster. That's pretty much all it did - a whole cluster dedicated to caching disk access. I'd imagine that even the DoD would balk at the cost of replacing a buildout like that with a new architecture. From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri Nov 4 08:48:46 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:48:46 +0000 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3E630.9010506@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB3E630.9010506@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <839153300-1320414527-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1670121003-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> I saw a one hour special on this recently. Ferarris are still hand made, and the engines are hand assembled. Virtually no robotics at all except in the spray booth and in the rough machining. Nice, nice, nice! Somebody gimme one! -----Original Message----- From: Toby Thain Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:18:40 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? On 04/11/11 12:48 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea and even expensive stuff now is flimsy > Dunno, I haven't checked under the hood of a Ferrari lately. Have you? --T > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Toby Thainwrote: > >> On 03/11/11 11:10 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> >>> On 11/3/2011 7:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Tell that to my 35-year-old DEC systems that are still running great, >>>> while the 386 box I had in 1991 turned to dust around 1998. ;) >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> You didn't spend enough. If you spent $9,000 on that 386 system in 1991 >>> I bet it would still be working. I have a Sun 386i here that works >>> perfectly and I could probably run over with my car and still boot up. >>> In fact, not sure my cheap car could climb over it. Probably just push >>> it down the road a ways. >>> >>> >> >> I think you hit the nail on the head. My 1980s era Suns& DECs are alive >> and well, and indestructible. The point is they also cost as much as a >> luxury car back then. >> >> --T >> > From ckblackm at yahoo.com Fri Nov 4 09:06:57 2011 From: ckblackm at yahoo.com (Christopher Blackmon) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 07:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3E3CF.5010009@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> <4EB38C61.8080305@update.uu.se> <4EB3E3CF.5010009@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1320415617.47886.YahooMailNeo@web160508.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Toby Thain On 04/11/11 3:11 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > wow that mailing list is older then i though Mailing list? ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet It's older than a lot of people on *this* mailing list. --Toby -------- I WISH it was older than me. Christopher. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 09:56:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:56:58 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3E72B.4050806@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB3E72B.4050806@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <37352BCF-EFBC-4186-A3CE-99876D37F7AA@neurotica.com> On Nov 4, 2011, at 9:22 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/11/11 1:32 AM, leaknoil wrote: >> On 11/3/2011 9:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> if its dod u will need to make it secure. >> >> please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a >> current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. >> > > That's very insightful. The x86 has a fantastic security record. I'd certainly pick it immediately over some unproven, obscure technology like VAX. > > However, I'd still have to be careful about choice of operating system, judging by news headlines. I'd avoid OpenBSD, for sure! ROFLMAO!!! -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From doc at vaxen.net Fri Nov 4 10:23:59 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:23:59 -0500 Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <201111032248.pA3MmEVD005424@floodgap.com> References: <201111032248.pA3MmEVD005424@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB4038F.40807@vaxen.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> "GUI version"? I have the Mac binary of mc, but is this Aquafied? >> No, it's Javanated. :D > > Is it this? > > http://www.mucommander.com/ > > Looks like it will still run on 10.4, which is great! Yep, that's it. Not a fan of Finder? Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 4 10:34:38 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 08:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <4EB4038F.40807@vaxen.net> from Doc at "Nov 4, 11 10:23:59 am" Message-ID: <201111041534.pA4FYc48010772@floodgap.com> > Yep, that's it. Not a fan of Finder? Oh, I'm a fan of the Finder. I just don't consider the OS X Finder to be "the Finder." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't Be Evil. -- Paul Buchheit -------------------------------------------- From cb at kryoflux.com Fri Nov 4 10:39:20 2011 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:39:20 +0100 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB Message-ID: <4EB40728.9060509@kryoflux.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 0:26, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>/Not only does it support raw imaging of flux transitions, we also / >>/support output of sector image formats for pretty much all major home />>/platforms of the last 25 odd years (as well as a few strange ones). / >That's a pretty bold claim. I'm not saying that you haven't, just >that I've got several cabinets full of samples and some are very odd >indeed. >Suppose I were to send you a specimen copy of one without providing >any details (pretty much what I'm given to work with). Do you think >you could send me a duplicate and a sector-by-sector dump? > >I'd really be impressed. Chuck, how about the following: You just try this for yourself; it already supports so many generic FM and MFM formats, chances are, a broad range will work out of the box. My offer would be as follows: I send you a board, you give it a try with your various test disks. If your data does not read as expected, or there is something we don't support yet, but should be supporting, you make a STREAM dump and put it on our FTP. We'll take a look. I'd have to ask for a EUR 50.- deposit, which I will gladly refund the moment you send it back (are 60 days long enough to give it a try?). I am not asking you to sign anything and it does not come with any obligations. Plus: If you'd want to keep it, you keep it for EUR 50.-. Your only risk would be the return postage... And I'd of course like to hear all feedback you have, even if negative, here on the list. What do you think? --Chris From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Nov 4 11:01:10 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:01:10 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB3E72B.4050806@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB3E72B.4050806@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB40C46.3000606@mail.msu.edu> On 11/4/2011 6:22 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/11/11 1:32 AM, leaknoil wrote: >> On 11/3/2011 9:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> if its dod u will need to make it secure. >> >> please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a >> current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. >> > > That's very insightful. The x86 has a fantastic security record. I'd > certainly pick it immediately over some unproven, obscure technology > like VAX. I had no idea that the VAX instruction set was inherently more secure than x86. (Here I was thinking that it was software that was responsible for security!) Care to explain? - Josh > > However, I'd still have to be careful about choice of operating > system, judging by news headlines. I'd avoid OpenBSD, for sure! > > --Toby From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 11:00:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:00:42 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB35E2C.4060408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB40C2A.90604@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 12:41 AM, David Riley wrote: >> I agree 100%! The 386i was a weird machine, but I miss mine. Fun >> stuff. I liked the idea of an 80386-based system that didn't even >> try to be "PC compatible" because that wasn't what they were >> looking to create. > > Agreed; more of the same might put me off my general distaste for the > 8086 architecture. I have a hard time getting behind a platform that > still has such an awful hack as the A20 gate built into it. I found > out what that BIOS setting meant (and the history behind it) when I > was trying to boot OpenBSD on a machine with a wonky A20 > implementation emulation, and I was actually enraged (still am, to an > extent). Yeah. The 80386 isn't a *terrible* processor on its own (ok, nowhere near what I'd consider "good", but it's usable) but when hamstrung by the amateurish, short-sighted, hackish PC systems-level architecture things get much worse. It seems a lot of those things have been corrected over the years, with the architecture slowly diverging from the original. Maybe in a few more years it'll be to about the level of, say, a SPARCstation of fifteen years ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 11:01:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:01:46 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB40C6A.8020401@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 12:48 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea and even expensive stuff now is flimsy Not really true, of seriously expensive stuff. If you could keep it balanced, even the most current IBM big iron could easily hold a car up in the air. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 11:03:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:03:05 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB37110.10908@mail.msu.edu> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB37110.10908@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4EB40CB9.3070207@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 12:58 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On the 386 front, I have an IBM PS/2 Model 80 ($10k in 1987) which still > works perfectly (after replacing the NVRAM battery...). (It's really > quite an ugly looking thing, but I have this odd affection for MCA > machines). Anecdotal evidence at best, but then we seem to thrive on > that here... Perhaps, but when did eyewitness accounts and direct observation by people who know what they're talking about somehow become a bad thing? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Nov 4 11:09:40 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:09:40 -0400 Subject: SWTPC Progress... Message-ID: <0a9d01cc9b0c$290a5e80$7b1f1b80$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Hi, Some time ago, I asked for some help locating documents for the Percom LFD-400 disk system. A number of people kindly helped out so I thought I would give a brief progress report to the list. 1) I removed various hacks on the MP-C and MP-S boards to return them to "factory" spec. 2) I implemented a switch on the MP-A CPU board to turn the onboard RAM on and off. This made debugging much easier. At this point, I was able to boot into SWTBUG with the MP-A RAM turned on. 3) I debugged several problems with the GIMIX 16K static RAM board. The original owner reported that this card always caused problems. No schematics seem to be available for it so the troubleshooting was slow going. The most interesting problem was that one of the 5 volt regulators (there are 4 on the board) was only providing 1.8 volts. As well as powering one of the 4K banks, this regulator was supplying power to some of the address decoding chips. With the out of spec supply, these chips were interfering with the correct operation of the address bus, preventing the whole system from operating. Other problems included some dead RAM chips, some bent pins on socketed chips and 39 undocumented dip switches. If somebody turns them up, I would love to get the docs for this board. At present, I have determined that 16 of the switches control the address of the 4 4K banks of RAM. I have left the other 23 switches as they were set when I acquired the system. Experiments as simple as turning them all on or off result in a non- functioning system. 4) I implemented the MP-B motherboard enhancement documented in the September 1978 issue of Interface Age. Fortunately, my MP-B was built with sockets, so the modifications can be easily removed if it should be necessary to restore the system to "factory" behavior. 5) I tied the MP-B mod into the address decoding on the 32K GIMIX card and the system now has 48K less 32 bytes of RAM and boots into SWTBUG with the MP-A RAM turned off. 6) I then proceeded to the Percom floppy interface board and determined to my great pleasure that it was functioning perfectly. I was able to jump into MINI-DOS+ with the SWTBUG 'Z' command, format a disk and create some files. I did this initially with a different 5 1/4 inch floppy drive as the original Percom (Shugart) drive had some problems. 7) I corrected two issues with the Percom drive and it now functions correctly. The first issue was shorted caps on the logic board. These were easily identified as they were smoking. The second problem puzzled me for a while. The drive worked fine as long as I did not put the cover on it. MINI-DOS is, unfortunately, pretty cryptic with its error reporting, only giving integer error codes. The magazine articles that I got don't document them. I finally figured out the problem when I noticed that the drive stopped working when I leaned over it. Turned out that there was some dust partially obscuring the index sensor. With the lid off and the overhead light shining on the drive, there was enough index signal for the drive to work. Put the cover on, or even shade the drive, and the internal LED was not producing enough light to detect the index holes. Interestingly, canned air was not enough to dislodge the dust. I had to reach in with a small, soft, unused paint brush and poke around to get it to the state where it works reliably with the cover on. One neat thing about the drive is that it has two sets of index and write-protect sensors. It is "flippy". It only has one read/write head, but you can insert a double sided diskette in either side up and use both sides. So, now I need some software. For those visually inclined, I put some pictures here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/swtpc6800/ Pictures 1 to 11 are of the AC-30 cassette interface and CT-64 terminal that I will be working on next. Pictures 16 and 17 are of the 6800 cover (I'm missing the screws). Pictures 18 to 21 show the output and listing of an SWTPC BASIC program I wrote to solve last week's Car Talk puzzler. Pictures 22 to 25 show SWTBUG working and using both serial interfaces. Pictures 27 and 28 show booting from SWTBUG into MINI-DOS+, getting a file listing and loading BASIC from a diskette. Pictures 30 to 35 show the beast itself. The cards from front to back are 1) The GIMIX 32K RAM 2) The GIMIX 16K RAM 3) The Percom floppy interface 4) The SWTPC MP-A CPU 5) The I/O card to the left (slot 0) is the MP-C and the card to the right (slot 1) is the MP-S. Picture 34 also shows the Percom floppy drive. Picture 35 is from the back. You can see the switch to control the MP-A RAM and also the small brown card that is the MP-B addressing enhancement. Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 11:10:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:10:23 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB37119.9010605@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB353D5.9020400@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB3598B.1060000@gmail.com> <4EB361C9.40002@neurotica.com> <4EB37119.9010605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB40E6F.2030601@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 12:59 AM, leaknoil wrote: >> You're missing the point my friend...it's not a "general DoD thing", >> it's a SPECIFIC DoD thing. The same thing happens with AlphaStation >> 500s. They are nice machines, but nowhere near as nice as others...and >> they fetch $300+, where nicer ones can be had for <$100. >> >> Specific makes AND MODELS of machines are frequently specced for >> projects and services. This is why crazy stuff like this happens. > > Maybe that is what's driving me crazy. What is it and why can't it be > ported ? "What is it" could be most anything. As for why it can't be ported, well shit, man, of course it can. It just WON'T be. There are two big reasons for this. First, it may be more expensive, even FAR more expensive, to do the port and then get the new target hardware re-qualified for use. That'd make it financially impractical to port. Second, there may be regulations or procedural requirements that prevent it from being ported. Remember the whole "procedure oriented" mindset...Follow this procedure, blindly and without thought, and you will get the correct outcome, and you won't lose your contract/get passed over for promotion/get a bonus/get in trouble/risk failure/etc. > Seriously, I will volunteer to port the damn thing if it will > lower my taxes $10 a year. Even if it doesn't I will do it anyway. I > really would rather no part of the of the national defense ran off any > VAX hardware and I love VAX stuff. But why? Do you really think something like an eMachine would be more reliable? I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to force you to examine your reasons for saying this. Reliability and uptime are king in that world. You just don't get more reliable than a VAX, most of the time. That will change as the machines get older, but in the grand scheme of things, in a world where "thing XYZ is twenty years old" means it's still new, there's really no reason to replace them. Upgrading for the sake of upgrading is bogus. It's always fun to play with the shiny new stuff, but do you really want that to be the driving factor in equipping a missile launch site or an aircraft carrier? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 11:11:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:11:08 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB377A3.40400@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> <4EB377A3.40400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB40E9C.4080006@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 01:26 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 9:29 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> ever herd of hardware locks? theres allot of software out there that does >> this and emulation sometimes just plane is missing this >> >> and i would suspect theres hardware keys that are locked to certan >> peacs of >> hardwae types > > Keys will be locked to the mac address or some other nvram sort of deal. > Buying another machine wont help you out one bit. It's trivial to swap the NVRAMs (at least in the machines we're talking about, as well as many others) in machines of the same model. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 11:12:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:12:13 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 01:32 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 9:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> if its dod u will need to make it secure. > > please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a > current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. This was a good one. I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 4 11:19:33 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB40C6A.8020401@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Nov 4, 11 12:01:46 pm" Message-ID: <201111041619.pA4GJXdk014150@floodgap.com> > > yea and even expensive stuff now is flimsy > > Not really true, of seriously expensive stuff. If you could keep it > balanced, even the most current IBM big iron could easily hold a car up > in the air. Even my "little" POWER6 would probably dent my Civic. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 11:20:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:20:31 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB38C61.8080305@update.uu.se> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34A61.5050402@neurotica.com> <4EB38C61.8080305@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4EB410CF.8030208@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 02:55 AM, Pontus wrote: >> They're fine machines. The Pentagon is filled to the brim with VAX >> 7000s, which are also fine machines. Rock solid, very fast, very >> predictable, and they run the stuff they need to run. What's not to like? > > Still? According to: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sys.pdp11/browse_thread/thread/8994561af12ce621/89d4e14a95253b29 > > > They took a bit of a beating. > > It would be interesting to hear what was taken out and if the managed to > replace it. I suppose its very secret though :) They did indeed take a beating. I sold four 7800 CPUs to a reseller for something like $1200/ea right after that. I haven't been there for quite awhile, but I really don't see them having been rotated out so soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 4 11:23:53 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB40C2A.90604@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Nov 4, 11 12:00:42 pm" Message-ID: <201111041623.pA4GNrlC014272@floodgap.com> > Yeah. The 80386 isn't a *terrible* processor on its own (ok, nowhere > near what I'd consider "good", but it's usable) but when hamstrung by > the amateurish, short-sighted, hackish PC systems-level architecture > things get much worse. I think the real reason I despise the x86 ISA (sorry, Josh) is because of all the baggage it carries. It makes CISC look really bad because of the weight of historical compatibility. Intel seems to know this based on all the times they've tried to kill x86 off (iAPX 432, i960, etc., even Itanic^WItanium to some degree). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 11:28:54 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:28:54 -0400 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB40C6A.8020401@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> <4EB3524E.5080205@neurotica.com> <4EB35799.5060900@gmail.com> <4EB3610B.3090606@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB40C6A.8020401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0E4A8A64-E48D-4DEA-9A77-28494ECFAB36@gmail.com> On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/04/2011 12:48 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> yea and even expensive stuff now is flimsy > > Not really true, of seriously expensive stuff. If you could keep it balanced, even the most current IBM big iron could easily hold a car up in the air. And to some extent, they still have some exciting industrial design. Nothing quite as fun as Cray's, of course (the T90's "gold sarcophagus" design is just truly nuts), but the z9 and z10 were fairly attractive looking machines. - Dave From ray at arachelian.com Fri Nov 4 11:32:39 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:32:39 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB413A7.4010206@arachelian.com> On 11/02/2011 05:02 PM, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > It would be nice to document completely as you want, but we have very > limited resources, and unless there is much demand for something, we > would find it hard to prioritise it. I think you might agree that your > requirement is a little unusual... :) Kieron Even more of a reason to document the hardware and open source some of the software. If you do that, the community will help and support your hardware and will create drivers for both the hardware as well as provide conversion tools for file systems and low level formats.. Hell, you should setup an SVN server and accept submissions. Stick to selling the hardware and make that the profit center. The more formats it supports, the more host systems it supports, and the more capabilities it has, the more interest you'll generate, the more kits you'll sell. It's not rocket science, and you won't have to spend tons of time wring up code that others would be happy to, or worse have to hire others to do it and cut into your profit margins each time someone asks for a new file system or low level format. Build something useful and open instead of locked down and useful only in a very narrow sense. From ray at arachelian.com Fri Nov 4 11:48:59 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB2C1E1.3000504@neurotica.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4EB2C1E1.3000504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> On 11/03/2011 12:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/03/2011 07:16 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> There's development code to do this with the DiscFerret. I've been >> holding off on releasing it because I wanted to do a "universal" (script >> based) version... at this point I'm tempted to abandon that and go with >> the C/C++ "recompile to add a new format" version. > > Sounds like a perfect application for loadable modules. > > -Dave > Lua would be perfect for this as it's designed to be a plugin language, and it's very portable and easy to learn/modify. With the JIT versions, it's about as fast as C/C++. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 12:16:52 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:16:52 -0400 Subject: Encompass US down? Message-ID: I figured it was about time I gave VMS a shot, but to get a hobbyist license I need to join Encompass US. encompassus.org seems to be down in a not-so-good way. Anyone have any insight on that? - Dave From phil at ultimate.com Fri Nov 4 10:10:47 2011 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 11:10:47 -0400 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111041510.pA4FAlTU087151@ultimate.com> > From: "Shoppa, Tim" > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:22:01 -0400 ..... > There was at least one other company that specialized in typesetting > for classified ads that used PDP-11's for typesetting. Their name is > not coming to mind at the moment but they were surprisingly common > at metropolitan newspapers. I remember them using the 3270-like > capabilities of VT-oh-something terminals. I don't know if this is what you were thinking of, but... ATEX made PDP-11 based systems for newspapers. I remember a DEC FORTRAN-10/20 co-worker in the 1980's telling us how much better their editing terminals were than TOPS-20 EMACS we were using. He showed us a picture of a LARGE custom keyboard (one that put the ungainly PC inspired Mac keyboards of the 1990's that people used to call "The Enterprise" (after the aircraft carrier, and perhaps IBM as well!) to shame). I remember the VT62 had block mode and multidrop DDCMP capabilities for use in "transaction based" applications. It looked like a VT52, but used a speaker for keyclick and the buzz (where the VT52 used something much more electromechanical that gave a really crisp "click" sound and feel, and the characteristic gear stripping sound for the bell). I gave away my VT62 (came with a PDT-11/150 employee purchase), but I still have a VT52! Back to the subject line: Were the plastic front pannel switches an "off the shelf" item purchased by DEC (and available in many colors), or were they custom molded? If the latter, were custom colors something a VAR/OEM could specify, did DEC supply specs so that you could go out and have your own made, or did the "OEM" (I hate the reversal in meaning) have to pull one off and bring it to a plastic molding company?? phil From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 4 12:42:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:42:31 -0700 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <97E76774-1052-4875-92E1-A6F019A6D923@gmail.com> References: , <4EB2C2D2.8080705@telus.net>, <97E76774-1052-4875-92E1-A6F019A6D923@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB3C197.28766.4C6A31@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 8:38, David Riley wrote: > Jameco, also; I've gotten quite a few older ICs to fix my Defender > boards (particularly 4116 RAM chips, which seem to be hard to find for > less than an arm and a leg each anywhere else, unless I'm looking in > the wrong places) from them. CMOS ICs are in a slightly different > class, but he might be able to get better than scrap for them. I've > very little use for them myself. Don't a lot of 4000-series ICs have 74HCxxxx equivalents? I've still got a bunch of old 4000-series CMOS from when they first started appearing. ISTR that they were very slow, unless one used high (+15V?) supplies. I think I still have my Solid State Scientific databook from that time. --Chuck From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 12:47:40 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:47:40 -0700 Subject: Encompass US down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB4253C.703@gmail.com> DECUserve is free and will get you a license although it will take a few days. Did for me anyway. http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1416 On 11/4/2011 10:16 AM, David Riley wrote: > I figured it was about time I gave VMS a shot, but to get a hobbyist license I need to join Encompass US. encompassus.org seems to be down in a not-so-good way. Anyone have any insight on that? > > - Dave From md.benson at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 12:53:30 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:53:30 +0000 Subject: Encompass US down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 Nov 2011, at 17:16, David Riley wrote: > I figured it was about time I gave VMS a shot, but to get a hobbyist license I need to join Encompass US. encompassus.org seems to be down in a not-so-good way. Anyone have any insight on that? You can still get a license membership number via: http://decuserve.org/ I think. That's where I got mine about 6 months ago. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 12:58:37 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:58:37 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4EB2C1E1.3000504@neurotica.com> <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <6452EF3A-8D10-483C-9EA5-968BD3D3C463@gmail.com> On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 11/03/2011 12:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 11/03/2011 07:16 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> There's development code to do this with the DiscFerret. I've been >>> holding off on releasing it because I wanted to do a "universal" (script >>> based) version... at this point I'm tempted to abandon that and go with >>> the C/C++ "recompile to add a new format" version. >> >> Sounds like a perfect application for loadable modules. >> >> -Dave >> > > Lua would be perfect for this as it's designed to be a plugin language, > and it's very portable and easy to learn/modify. > With the JIT versions, it's about as fast as C/C++. Even without the JIT, it's plenty fast on modern machines. I think the primary benefit of Lua is that it's very easily embedded and extended, and it compiles very cleanly on quite a few platforms. It also has a pretty small memory footprint even with a reasonably complete standard library (which, for scripting disk format conversions, you could probably slim down), something that lot of "embeddable" scripting languages don't. Python is another option, though it's somewhat larger and more ponderous than Lua. For older machines, it may be wholly inappropriate. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 13:00:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 14:00:14 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB4282E.10603@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 11:33 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> Hey, you're the one who asked for an explanation. ;) >> > Maybe the explanation I'm looking for is what in the world could > possibly require a 4000-96 that could be done with something else. I > mean it's a graphical workstation It CAN BE a graphical workstation. > It has to be a graphics app. Not necessarily. I myself deployed countless VAXstation3100 systems in a Defense environment in non-graphical roles. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 13:19:13 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:19:13 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: > please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. That kind of sounds like a challenge. Who has a net connected VMS machine that Mr. Leaknoil can hack into so easily? -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 13:25:47 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:25:47 -0400 Subject: Encompass US down? In-Reply-To: <4EB4253C.703@gmail.com> References: <4EB4253C.703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A6E18D4-2446-4AB3-AD2A-E5AD209A3B11@gmail.com> On Nov 4, 2011, at 1:47 PM, leaknoil wrote: > DECUserve is free and will get you a license although it will take a few days. Did for me anyway. http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1416 > > On 11/4/2011 10:16 AM, David Riley wrote: >> I figured it was about time I gave VMS a shot, but to get a hobbyist license I need to join Encompass US. encompassus.org seems to be down in a not-so-good way. Anyone have any insight on that? >> >> - Dave Looks like that did the trick. Also got an account on a real VAX elsewhere, which should be nice. Thanks! - Dave From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Nov 4 13:29:18 2011 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:29:18 -0400 Subject: Post Jobs speculation or just scrap thieves? In-Reply-To: <25AD53FE777740519912EF453BF3848A@dell8300> References: <20111103093039.4181f9ce@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <20111103143056.18c4995c@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <25AD53FE777740519912EF453BF3848A@dell8300> Message-ID: <20111104142918.6d140a91@crucible.dragonsweb.org> On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:29:46 -0400 "TeoZ" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > http://[url redacted] > > Some of my favorite chips are getting melted down for gold. > Sigh. That reminds me, however, that I have a couple of PPro 200's (256K) lying around that I'd be more than happy to swap for a couple of Pentium II Overdrives. That's about as good a litmus test as I can think of :-) Sorry for the irony bomb in the other thread I forked. Looking for real Vax or Alpha server to run OpenVMS on, if anyone knows of one needing a home. jbdigriz -- From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 4 13:36:00 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:36:00 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> <4EB4282E.10603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <24AC0C3BDC6A44BB9CC497501EA43552@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 2:00 PM Subject: Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? > On 11/03/2011 11:33 PM, leaknoil wrote: >>> Hey, you're the one who asked for an explanation. ;) >>> >> Maybe the explanation I'm looking for is what in the world could >> possibly require a 4000-96 that could be done with something else. I >> mean it's a graphical workstation > > It CAN BE a graphical workstation. > >> It has to be a graphics app. > > Not necessarily. I myself deployed countless VAXstation3100 systems in > a Defense environment in non-graphical roles. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA So whats the major difference between a VAXStation and a MicroVAX outside of built in video? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 4 13:40:29 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 11:40:29 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB40728.9060509@kryoflux.com> References: <4EB40728.9060509@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <4EB3CF2D.13177.817D79@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 16:39, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > how about the following: You just try this for yourself; it already > supports so many generic FM and MFM formats, chances are, a broad > range will work out of the box. FM or MFM? Dear me, if it were that simple, I wouldn't have bothered to even mention it. How about several flavors of GCR, hard-sectored, or written using drives with a vendor's own PCB installed on the drive? How about a Kodak 6MB 5.25" floppy with embedded servo? Things are really interesting in the 8" world before the advent of LSI floppy controllers. Often, manufacturers simply invented something. (e.g. doesn't at least on OSI format simpy use a USART, recording the entire track as an async serial data stream?) And then filesystems themselves are all over the place. It just seems to me that you're mostly concerned with personal computer floppies; i.e., the Commodore/Osborne/Kaypro etc. types of systems. While they may have been more populous in terms of numbers of systesm sold, they're only the tip of the iceberg. Floppies used in the commercial world are far more diverse in format, both in physical data representation as well as logical filesystem organization. Even comparatively mundane equipment poses its challenges. Consider low-end Brother word processors, which use either a 40 or 80-cylinder 3.5" GCR-encoded format. That's not too bad--except that Brother didn't bother to use drives with a fixed cylinder 0 position. When formatting a floppy, they run the head out to the mechanical stop, step one track in and begin formatting. When reading another system's floppies, they go to the stop, then step fractional tracks until they get a good read of cylinder 0. I guess it saves them from addressing alignment issues on what are very cheap floppy drives. My offer was to see how well you could do with the same sort of job I get routinely--as in "I don't remember what it came from, but can you get the data from it?" or "The equipment was built in-house and we've lost any documentation, but we need 10 duplicates of the boot floppy". It'd be far cheaper for me to send you a sample (media mail) than to pay your board price and international shipping costs for something that may or may not work. But thank you for the offer. All the best, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 13:51:13 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:51:13 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives Message-ID: I have a quantity of these which probably have the imfamous sticky rubber bumper. If anyone wishes to mank an offer, please contact me off list. Shipping from 61853, Champaign, IL area. Thanks, Paul From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Nov 4 13:52:06 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 14:52:06 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <24AC0C3BDC6A44BB9CC497501EA43552@dell8300> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> <4EB4282E.10603@neurotica.com> <24AC0C3BDC6A44BB9CC497501EA43552@dell8300> Message-ID: <1320432727.16920.18.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Fri, 2011-11-04 at 14:36 -0400, TeoZ wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 2:00 PM > Subject: Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me > ? > > > > On 11/03/2011 11:33 PM, leaknoil wrote: > >>> Hey, you're the one who asked for an explanation. ;) > >>> > >> Maybe the explanation I'm looking for is what in the world could > >> possibly require a 4000-96 that could be done with something else. I > >> mean it's a graphical workstation > > > > It CAN BE a graphical workstation. > > > >> It has to be a graphics app. > > > > Not necessarily. I myself deployed countless VAXstation3100 systems in > > a Defense environment in non-graphical roles. > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire > > New Kensington, PA > > So whats the major difference between a VAXStation and a MicroVAX outside of > built in video? > I think that is the major difference. Other things are serial port or scsi bus configuration. Maybe VMS licensing, although I don't recall any difference between my MV3100-90 and VS4000-90. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 13:54:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 14:54:31 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <24AC0C3BDC6A44BB9CC497501EA43552@dell8300> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> <4EB4282E.10603@neurotica.com> <24AC0C3BDC6A44BB9CC497501EA43552@dell8300> Message-ID: <4EB434E7.6030700@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 02:36 PM, TeoZ wrote: > So whats the major difference between a VAXStation and a MicroVAX > outside of built in video? Nothing. In fact, in one model that comes to mind (the MicroVAX-2000 and VAXstation-2000), whether or not the system identifies itself to the OS as a MicroVAX or a VAXstation is by a jumper on the motherboard that disables the framebuffer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 4 14:05:46 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 15:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB40728.9060509@kryoflux.com> References: <4EB40728.9060509@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <201111041905.PAA11994@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] > [...] A meta-comment: I've been watching the KryoFlux discussion and, whatever I may think of the hardware[1] or past management policies[2], I'm very positively impressed with the people who are representing KryoFlux[3] here. I've also been positively impressed with the other people involved. Some people don't like some aspects of KryoFlux, sure, but the thread hasn't degenerated into a flamefest, in marked contrast to far too many other mailing list discussions I've seen. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B [1] What I've heard sounds good; I've never even seen it personally, so I can't say much authoritatively.[4] [2] Like opening it up - not the opening itself, but the implication that it hasn't always been that way. [3] To the extent that they _are_ representing it, of course; I'm not clear how official the representation is, but for purposes of this email it doesn't really matter much. [4] Given that it hooks up to a stock drive (at least that's the impression I've gotten) and is largely open and getting opener, I'm tempted to get one against possible future need. (I'm not thrilled by USB, but I've got enough USB-capable machines, and will likely get more, that it's tolerable. And, while I currently have no real use for it, it is not unlikely that will change someday, and I'd hate to discover them gone when I do want their product.) From useddec at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 14:15:14 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:15:14 -0500 Subject: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <201111041510.pA4FAlTU087151@ultimate.com> References: <201111041510.pA4FAlTU087151@ultimate.com> Message-ID: I think some type set syrtems used the VT71 or VT72 also. Paul On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Phil Budne wrote: >> From: "Shoppa, Tim" >> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:22:01 -0400 > ..... >> There was at least one other company that specialized in typesetting >> for classified ads that used PDP-11's for typesetting. Their name is >> not coming to mind at the moment but they were surprisingly common >> at metropolitan newspapers. I remember them using the 3270-like >> capabilities of VT-oh-something terminals. > > I don't know if this is what you were thinking of, but... ?ATEX made > PDP-11 based systems for newspapers. ?I remember a DEC FORTRAN-10/20 > co-worker in the 1980's telling us how much better their editing > terminals were than TOPS-20 EMACS we were using. ?He showed us a > picture of a LARGE custom keyboard (one that put the ungainly PC > inspired Mac keyboards of the 1990's that people used to call "The > Enterprise" (after the aircraft carrier, and perhaps IBM as well!) to > shame). > > I remember the VT62 had block mode and multidrop DDCMP capabilities > for use in "transaction based" applications. ?It looked like a VT52, > but used a speaker for keyclick and the buzz (where the VT52 used > something much more electromechanical that gave a really crisp "click" > sound and feel, and the characteristic gear stripping sound for the bell). > I gave away my VT62 (came with a PDT-11/150 employee purchase), > but I still have a VT52! > > Back to the subject line: > > Were the plastic front pannel switches an "off the shelf" item > purchased by DEC (and available in many colors), or were they custom molded? > > If the latter, were custom colors something a VAR/OEM could specify, > did DEC supply specs so that you could go out and have your own made, > or did the "OEM" (I hate the reversal in meaning) have to pull one off > and bring it to a plastic molding company?? > > phil > From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 14:25:35 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:25:35 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <1320432727.16920.18.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> <4EB4282E.10603@neurotica.com> <24AC0C3BDC6A44BB9CC497501EA43552@dell8300> <1320432727.16920.18.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4EB43C2F.4030308@gmail.com> On 11/4/2011 11:52 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Fri, 2011-11-04 at 14:36 -0400, TeoZ wrote: >> So whats the major difference between a VAXStation and a MicroVAX outside of >> built in video? >> > I think that is the major difference. Other things are serial port or > scsi bus configuration. Maybe VMS licensing, although I don't recall > any difference between my MV3100-90 and VS4000-90. > > VAXStations only get one user license by default and MicroVAX get a few. I can't remember the number anymore. If you want more then one user on a VAXStation you have buy more licenses. It actually keeps additional users from logging on if you don't have enough licenses. From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Nov 4 14:59:00 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:59:00 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB44404.5060705@verizon.net> On 11/4/2011 2:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a current > x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. > > That kind of sounds like a challenge. Who has a net connected VMS machine > that Mr. Leaknoil can hack into so easily? > -- > Will Hahaha. That's right, throw down the gauntlet. I once took a CS class at the local univ. and the teacher was a graduate student. She went on ad nauseam about how vms was so much more secure than unix, and made it a point that all her record keeping of grades was done in files on the school VMS machines. I had raised my hand and asked if I could modify her "gradebook" files in her VMS account, if I could get an 'A'. Of course she said no, which I think is somewhat hypocritical of her, even with the understanding of school policies, etc. The comical thing about the situation was that I already had SYSPRV, as I believe it is/was called (I haven't touched this stuff in a quite some time) I had complete access to her files, including her univ email account which was different on the VMS systems than from the UNIX side. She was dating an undergraduate in her class, which is quasi-legal anyways, and was trading personal emails. When I discovered this and read through them, she had just purchased a cat and was trying to find a name for it. Her boyfriend's name was "Sam." (or joe or steve or whatever, I don't remember). I snuck into class early, wrote in big letters on the board, "Name your cat Sam." I left, only to return a few minutes late to class, an hour or so later, where the teacher was asking who wrote it on the board. I only smiled and shrugged my shoulders ---- and remember thinking not much about VMS security. In fact, the attack was a failure of several parts of the overall system -- as they usually are. Several vms machines had shared lan access(before switches were more widely used), vulnerable to sniffers. There were exploits in the day for this particular version, not widely known but to which I had access. I had local access to the box already. There were trust-relationship problems between machines. Local un-secured dialups. It was bad. I always liked sniffers and plaintext connections like telnet and ftp, because even the most cryptic passwords are clearly identified. Keith P.S. None of this is meant to support the above claim. Just that all systems are vulnerable in some respect, no matter the make/model/version. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 15:11:12 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 16:11:12 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB434E7.6030700@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> <4EB4282E.10603@neurotica.com> <24AC0C3BDC6A44BB9CC497501EA43552@dell8300> <4EB434E7.6030700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/04/2011 02:36 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> >> So whats the major difference between a VAXStation and a MicroVAX >> outside of built in video? > > ?Nothing. ?In fact, in one model that comes to mind (the MicroVAX-2000 and > VAXstation-2000), whether or not the system identifies itself to the OS as a > MicroVAX or a VAXstation is by a jumper on the motherboard that disables the > framebuffer. ISTR it also tweaks the SID (system ID) so code running on the box can trivially query that (even a DCL script) and see what it's on (most commonly to enforce license terms for workstation vs server user head count, etc). -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 15:21:19 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 16:21:19 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB44404.5060705@verizon.net> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB44404.5060705@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > P.S. None of this is meant to support the above claim. Just that all systems are vulnerable in some respect, no matter the make/model/version. As a bigger meta-point, I would say that by far the bigger factor in security (modulo zero-day vulnerabilities and the like, which may or may not be more intrinsic to one system than another) is the operator. There are very few systems which are particularly secure upon first installation because by the time you get the install media, it's likely someone has found a hole in a subsidiary, third-party component. Now, whether a VMS system can be locked down more effectively than, say, Linux/OpenBSD/whatever with equally skilled operators is probably the real question. But how do you quantify "equally skilled" on two very different operating systems? - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 4 15:29:35 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 16:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB40C46.3000606@mail.msu.edu> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB3E72B.4050806@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB40C46.3000606@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201111042029.QAA13498@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> That's very insightful. The x86 has a fantastic security record. I'd >> certainly pick it immediately over some unproven, obscure technology >> like VAX. > I had no idea that the VAX instruction set was inherently more secure > than x86. Well, the sarcasm you appear to be missing (whether deliberately or not I can't tell) aside, I think it actually may be. "There are two ways to make something secure: you can make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, or you can make it so complex there are no obvious deficiencies." While I would hesitate to call the VAX instruction set simple, at least compared to something like the PDP-8 or even more modern RISC machines like MIPS or PPC, it is far more orthogonal and cleanly designed than the horror that is x86, and correspondingly easier to implement correctly. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 4 15:32:47 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 16:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4EB2C1E1.3000504@neurotica.com> <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <201111042032.QAA13571@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > With the JIT versions, [Lua i]s about as fast as C/C++. While you don't quite say it, this seems to be heading towards embedding a compiler in the kernel. Is that a fair inference? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 4 15:36:16 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:36:16 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB40728.9060509@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: Being a hardware geek myself, are current schematics available for the kryoflux? I had asked a year or so ago and got pointed to old schematics that were a couple revisions out of date. From lists at softpres.org Fri Nov 4 16:41:28 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 21:41:28 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB3CF2D.13177.817D79@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB40728.9060509@kryoflux.com> <4EB3CF2D.13177.817D79@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4 Nov 2011, at 18:40, Chuck Guzis wrote: > FM or MFM? Dear me, if it were that simple, I wouldn't have bothered > to even mention it. How about several flavors of GCR, hard-sectored, > or written using drives with a vendor's own PCB installed on the > drive? How about a Kodak 6MB 5.25" floppy with embedded servo? KryoFlux also supports outputting various GCR sector formats. You said it was a bold claim, but I don't really think so. I said support sector images for "pretty much also major home platforms". Of which there are many combinations, but nothing too strange. We support a few strange ones too though as I said. If we need to start modifying drives to read disks, then yes that is more problematic. :-) > It just seems to me that you're mostly concerned with personal > computer floppies; i.e., the Commodore/Osborne/Kaypro etc. types of > systems. While they may have been more populous in terms of numbers > of systesm sold, they're only the tip of the iceberg. Floppies used > in the commercial world are far more diverse in format, both in > physical data representation as well as logical filesystem > organization. Oh absolutely. Yes, I remember you saying you work in this area. As I said before, we're definitely aiming at the commercial software market for home systems. If we can image the physical disks, then that is a good part of the battle. If something is very custom, probably more of an analysis job than an imaging job. > Even comparatively mundane equipment poses its challenges. Consider > low-end Brother word processors, which use either a 40 or 80-cylinder > 3.5" GCR-encoded format. That's not too bad--except that Brother > didn't bother to use drives with a fixed cylinder 0 position. When > formatting a floppy, they run the head out to the mechanical stop, > step one track in and begin formatting. When reading another > system's floppies, they go to the stop, then step fractional tracks > until they get a good read of cylinder 0. I guess it saves them from > addressing alignment issues on what are very cheap floppy drives. Nice ;-) > My offer was to see how well you could do with the same sort of job I > get routinely--as in "I don't remember what it came from, but can you > get the data from it?" or "The equipment was built in-house and we've > lost any documentation, but we need 10 duplicates of the boot > floppy". Not much we can do if we can't get a raw image. At SPS, our technology excels at the analysis part. Kieron From lists at softpres.org Fri Nov 4 16:51:51 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 21:51:51 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89302B90-E4CD-4176-BE89-224D9E49404A@softpres.org> On 4 Nov 2011, at 20:36, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Being a hardware geek myself, are current schematics available for the > kryoflux? I had asked a year or so ago and got pointed to old schematics > that were a couple revisions out of date. Yes, I am pretty sure the ones on http://www.kryoflux.com are now up to date. If you do make your own board, the software is free (for private use) of course. Kieron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 4 17:04:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 22:04:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <1320340425.29821.41.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 3, 11 05:13:45 pm Message-ID: > a message from the admin to the effect of "your opensource project harms > commercial interests, and we have few enough commercial suppliers left > as it is". I've stopped trying... That admin neaed a healthy dose of clue-by-four IMHO. Presumably, the open-source developers who produced linux, gcc, etc harm Microsoft. Presumably I (and many other here) harm computer technicians nad car mechanics by doing all our own repairs. Presuably also we harm computer companies by keepign this running rathr tha continually replacing them. Give me a break [1]!/ [1] If any joker says 'assert TsD for 0.5s', I'll give _them_ theclue-by-four ;-) > - DiscFerret and (to some degree) Catweasel -- Tinkerers. People who > want to look under the hood, see how things are done. The sort of folks > who buy a car, then immediately go out and buy the Workshop Manual, > Haynes manual and all the special tools required. So what about the sort of person who buys the workshop manual -- the official one -- before buyign the car. Makes the special tools himself on his lathe. Presumably they should buy an FPGA development kit and make theire onw disk reader :-) -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 4 17:05:58 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 15:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Nov 4, 11 12:48:59 pm" Message-ID: <201111042205.pA4M5woA014342@floodgap.com> > Lua would be perfect for this as it's designed to be a plugin language, > and it's very portable and easy to learn/modify. > With the JIT versions, it's about as fast as C/C++. Looking at LuaJIT now, though that PPC SPE crap has got to go. I intensely dislike the way FP is implemented on the e500, and I'm a POWER bigot. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Douglas Adams ------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 17:39:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:39:20 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB351D9.6010602@gmail.com> <4EB3564E.5090209@neurotica.com> <4EB35D00.3070700@gmail.com> <4EB4282E.10603@neurotica.com> <24AC0C3BDC6A44BB9CC497501EA43552@dell8300> <4EB434E7.6030700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB46998.7060604@neurotica.com> On 11/04/2011 04:11 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> So whats the major difference between a VAXStation and a MicroVAX >>> outside of built in video? >> >> Nothing. In fact, in one model that comes to mind (the MicroVAX-2000 and >> VAXstation-2000), whether or not the system identifies itself to the OS as a >> MicroVAX or a VAXstation is by a jumper on the motherboard that disables the >> framebuffer. > > ISTR it also tweaks the SID (system ID) so code running on the box can > trivially query that (even a DCL script) and see what it's on (most > commonly to enforce license terms for workstation vs server user head > count, etc). Yes, that's what I said. ;) The jumper not only disables the framebuffer, but changes how the machine identifies itself to the OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 4 17:39:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:39:53 -0400 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB469B9.5090705@neurotica.com> On 11/03/2011 09:07 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > A friend said that he has a collection of NOS 4000 series CMOS ICs. > If there is any interest I will get them so they don't go in the trash. I'll take them if nobody else needs them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 4 17:42:48 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 15:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: John McCarthy In-Reply-To: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <527338696-1320337934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-83441790-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Vintage Coder wrote: > The editor/IDE that comes with FreePascal that Gene B pointed me to has a very MSDOS/TurboPascal look and feel. > fpide? That was done on purpose. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 4 17:44:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:44:17 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111042205.pA4M5woA014342@floodgap.com> References: <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Nov 4, 11 12:48:59 pm", <201111042205.pA4M5woA014342@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB40851.7055.160B12F@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 15:05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Lua would be perfect for this as it's designed to be a plugin > > language, and it's very portable and easy to learn/modify. With the > > JIT versions, it's about as fast as C/C++. > > Looking at LuaJIT now, though that PPC SPE crap has got to go. I > intensely dislike the way FP is implemented on the e500, and I'm a > POWER bigot. At the expense of sounding like an old fuddy-duddy, who gives a rat's ass about a GUI or a scripting language for something like this? Without someone the stature of Bob Pease to back me up, I'll stick my foot into this thread at the expense of losing it by saying I've seen very few digital designs that could compete with a well adjusted analog PLL data separator and associated filters. --Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Fri Nov 4 17:45:08 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:45:08 -0400 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111042032.QAA13571@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4EB2C1E1.3000504@neurotica.com> <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> <201111042032.QAA13571@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EB46AF4.9060606@arachelian.com> On 11/04/2011 04:32 PM, Mouse wrote: >> With the JIT versions, [Lua i]s about as fast as C/C++. > While you don't quite say it, this seems to be heading towards > embedding a compiler in the kernel. Is that a fair inference? > > That would be an interesting idea. VMWare Tools uses a similar thing, if when the guest boots up it doesn't have the right modules for the current kernel, it will compile them at startup and load them. I'm not sure if it's necessary to have compilers in the kernel, it may make things more difficult and possibly dangerous in some ways. A JIT kernel module might work, but what would it buy over a userland JIT one? Or are you wanting a whole OS built from Lua? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 4 17:10:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 22:10:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Multiplexing was Re: Information on the PPS-4/1 4 bit In-Reply-To: <4EB2B65D.968.16BC7BF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 3, 11 03:42:21 pm Message-ID: > > On 3 Nov 2011 at 20:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It beats normal multipelxed LED matrix (not adding any external > > logic). But for charlieplexing to work, and not haev other LEDs turn > > on, you need indivdualy-controllable 3-state outputs -- that is any of > > the pins must be able to be high, low, or high-impedance, independant > > of all the others. > > Isn't the ability to bit-manipulate I/O pins a hallmark of most > modern small (I/O limited) microcontrollers? I thought that went > without saying. Yes, but I am no so foolish as to assuem that all thw world (or even all of digital electronics) involves microcontrollers. Understnadign how a tirck like this works and what it requries (and why) means you can use it, or a modified verison of it, in other situations -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 4 17:42:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 22:42:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <4EB3C197.28766.4C6A31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 11 10:42:31 am Message-ID: > > On 4 Nov 2011 at 8:38, David Riley wrote: > > > Jameco, also; I've gotten quite a few older ICs to fix my Defender > > boards (particularly 4116 RAM chips, which seem to be hard to find for > > less than an arm and a leg each anywhere else, unless I'm looking in > > the wrong places) from them. CMOS ICs are in a slightly different > > class, but he might be able to get better than scrap for them. I've > > very little use for them myself. > > Don't a lot of 4000-series ICs have 74HCxxxx equivalents? I've still The common ones that don't have indentical funcionality in 74xx TTL seem to. For example there's a 74HC4017 10-state counter IIRC. However, when there is the same functionality but differnet pinouts (e.g 7400 .vs. 4011), there isn't a driect equivalent in 74HCxxx, the TTL pinout takes precedence. So there is a 74HC00, there isn't a 74HC4011 And there are quite a few 'odd' fucntions in the 4000 series CMOS range that were not commonly used and never made it into 74HCxxx, My older Philips 4000 series data book lists an HPIB talker.listner state machine IC, for example. And I think (without checking the databooks) that 4000 series will stand a higher supply voltage thea 74HCxxx > got a bunch of old 4000-series CMOS from when they first started > appearing. ISTR that they were very slow, unless one used high > (+15V?) supplies. I think I still have my Solid State Scientific > databook from that time. I know I have by 4000 series databooks... They are slow, and thus are not commonly used in classic computers. The odd oens do turn up, particualrly where speed is not very important but he function was (IIRC ,the BCD interface for my HP9815 calculator has some odd 4000 series shift registers in it, there is no direct TTL equivalent, The also, of course, turn up where low pawer consuption is important. -tony From lists at softpres.org Fri Nov 4 18:04:00 2011 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 23:04:00 +0000 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB413A7.4010206@arachelian.com> References: <4EB413A7.4010206@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <1ABB8F19-C8BA-4ED6-8396-CFDD741FE0B9@softpres.org> On 4 Nov 2011, at 16:32, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Even more of a reason to document the hardware and open source some of > the software. If you do that, the community will help and support your > hardware and will create drivers for both the hardware as well as > provide conversion tools for file systems and low level formats.. Hell, > you should setup an SVN server and accept submissions. The hardware is a standard piece of kit really. It's basically an ARM dev board with some bits and bobs and a drive interface. I definitely sympathise with people, particularly here, who would want to see and play with the guts of the KryoFlux software. However, the software is what makes us money to fund our preservation efforts at SPS. Well, more than the personal edition anyway, so it is a much harder decision for us. We don't see any other way to fund that work, and it is so important... I definitely agree about documenting the firmware interface though. > Stick to selling the hardware and make that the profit center. The more As mentioned before. There isn't really any money in hardware without making it far too expensive. We definitely wanted it to be under 100 EUR (the basic edition is 90 EUR), and we can only do that by selling it near cost. The commercial licenses we provide are for the software. Also, this way, you can get KryoFlux for free by building a board yourself (okay, the cost of the components). > of time wring up code that others would be happy to, or worse have to > hire others to do it and cut into your profit margins each time someone > asks for a new file system or low level format. Not really needed for that. The file format for the raw data is open, so people can (and have) built their own tools and converters. If you can get the raw data and a good selection of sector image output (and more being added all the time), that seems to me to solve all normal usage. > Build something useful and open instead of locked down and useful only > in a very narrow sense. The only reason I can think of people needing the code is to tinker (which is very nice I admit, but not really a "need" surely?). Are there other uses you are thinking of? Kieron From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 4 18:08:04 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 16:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3485E.1040707@gmail.com> <4EB34A80.8070806@neurotica.com> <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 7:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> dec built macheans to last unlike new stuff >> > I don't think DEC has built a single machean. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 18:42:19 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 19:42:19 -0400 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > And I think (without checking the databooks) that 4000 series will stand > a higher supply voltage thea 74HCxxx My recollection is that the 74HCxxxxx are nominal 5V parts (the HCT ones specifically run with TTL switching thresholds). CD4000 series is full range, I think usually 3.3-15v or thereabouts, with the switching threshold usually at 0.5Vdd. 74HC was generally considerably slower than 74F for the same part (though also took WAY less power), 74HCT slower still. > They are slow, and thus are not commonly used in classic computers. The > odd oens do turn up, particualrly where speed is not very important but > he function was (IIRC ,the BCD interface for my HP9815 calculator has > some odd 4000 series shift registers in it, there is no direct TTL > equivalent, And I sure love the 405x series of (basically) analog multiplexers and 4016 analog switches. By now there are a number of better analog multiplexers and switches out there, but there weren't any straight TTL muxes that I remember which operate in both directions (because they were typically combinational logic instead of pass gates). - Dave From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Nov 4 18:46:42 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:46:42 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111041623.pA4GNrlC014272@floodgap.com> References: <201111041623.pA4GNrlC014272@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB47962.7080107@mail.msu.edu> On 11/4/2011 9:23 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Yeah. The 80386 isn't a *terrible* processor on its own (ok, nowhere >> near what I'd consider "good", but it's usable) but when hamstrung by >> the amateurish, short-sighted, hackish PC systems-level architecture >> things get much worse. > I think the real reason I despise the x86 ISA (sorry, Josh) is because of > all the baggage it carries. It makes CISC look really bad because of the > weight of historical compatibility. Oh, I'm not one to defend the x86 instruction set (I was merely standing up for a 386 machine that's old enough to drink). It's certainly a compromise, but then again that historical compatibility has proved to be an advantage, just like all good viruses :). So in a certain sense I can't complain about it too much. (And I don't spend time dealing with x86 at the assembly level other than occasionally deciphering disassemblies in the debugger, so honestly the impact it has on my day to day activities is basically nil.) Would I rather the PC were based on a more sane instruction set? Sure. Am I losing sleep over it? Nah. - Josh > > Intel seems to know this based on all the times they've tried to kill x86 > off (iAPX 432, i960, etc., even Itanic^WItanium to some degree). > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 4 18:59:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 16:59:56 -0700 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4EB41A0C.27439.1A5F4D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 16:08, Gene Buckle wrote: > I don't think DEC has built a single machean. I think that's just a misspelling of "Manichean". --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 4 19:07:35 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Nov 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/04/2011 01:32 AM, leaknoil wrote: >> On 11/3/2011 9:38 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> if its dod u will need to make it secure. >> >> please. vms 7.3 on a vs4000 is going to be way less secure than a >> current x86 box running redhat or whatever modern unix variant. > > This was a good one. I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. ;) > Hell, I'd offer up that VMS 5 was more secure than your average unix variant right out of the box. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 19:56:08 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:56:08 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> On 11/4/2011 5:07 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Hell, I'd offer up that VMS 5 was more secure than your average unix > variant right out of the box. > > g. > I get the feeling you guys haven't installed a current linux distro in a very long time. Tell me how debian is less secure out of the box ? Oh you can't. Right sorry. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 4 20:00:50 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:00:50 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <1ABB8F19-C8BA-4ED6-8396-CFDD741FE0B9@softpres.org> Message-ID: I may be dense today, but after digging through the kryoflux.org site I'm not having any luck finding the schematic. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 4 20:02:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:02:40 -0700 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: References: <4EB3C197.28766.4C6A31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 11 10:42:31 am, Message-ID: <4EB428C0.1884.1DF62A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 22:42, Tony Duell wrote: > And there are quite a few 'odd' fucntions in the 4000 series CMOS > range that were not commonly used and never made it into 74HCxxx, My > older Philips 4000 series data book lists an HPIB talker.listner state > machine IC, for example. > > And I think (without checking the databooks) that 4000 series will > stand a higher supply voltage thea 74HCxxx That is true--74HCxx are generally rated at +7V max. I believe that the "middle" voltage (i.e. recommended) voltage for 4000 CMOS was 10V. At 5V, the speed dropped to less than half that at 10V. Back then, 10 or 15V was commonly thought of as "CMOS logic levels". If someone uses that term today, it's likely he means 3.3V or less. National also had a parallel series of CMOS chips, with 4000 equivalents, the MM56xx series. I still have the pile of 4010 buffers I bought new. I was using them in a too-clever PMOS-to-TTL conversion setup (I don't recall the details or even if it worked). They have 1976 date codes. For a time, it seemed as if 4000 CMOS couldn't find itself. Lots of counters and shift registers. Did anyone actually use a 4581 ALU in anything? I've always wondered if anyone built up a CPU from 4000 CMOS... 4000 series CMOS is still in current production. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 4 20:04:10 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:04:10 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/4/11 5:56 PM, "leaknoil" wrote: > On 11/4/2011 5:07 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> Hell, I'd offer up that VMS 5 was more secure than your average unix >> variant right out of the box. >> >> g. >> > > I get the feeling you guys haven't installed a current linux distro in a > very long time. Tell me how debian is less secure out of the box ? Oh > you can't. Right sorry. > Good way to alienate any possible supporters you may have. Many of us out here have experience with classic hardware and software and current hardware and software. In my last gig we used a couple different Operating Systems and NONE were trusted out of the box, they were all hardened as some of our machines lived in the corporate DMZ. Anyone who suggested that any OS was secure enough right out of the box would have been laughed out of the office. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 4 20:11:30 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 21:11:30 -0400 Subject: Lua - Re: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <6452EF3A-8D10-483C-9EA5-968BD3D3C463@gmail.com> References: <4EA9626D.5040108@kryoflux.com> <1320318963.29821.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4EB2C1E1.3000504@neurotica.com> <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> <6452EF3A-8D10-483C-9EA5-968BD3D3C463@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB48D42.80504@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/11 1:58 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> On 11/03/2011 12:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 11/03/2011 07:16 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>>> There's development code to do this with the DiscFerret. I've been >>>> holding off on releasing it because I wanted to do a "universal" (script >>>> based) version... at this point I'm tempted to abandon that and go with >>>> the C/C++ "recompile to add a new format" version. >>> >>> Sounds like a perfect application for loadable modules. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> >> Lua would be perfect for this as it's designed to be a plugin language, >> and it's very portable and easy to learn/modify. >> With the JIT versions, it's about as fast as C/C++. > > Even without the JIT, it's plenty fast on modern machines. I think the primary benefit of Lua is that it's very easily embedded and extended, and it compiles very cleanly on quite a few platforms. It also has a pretty small memory footprint even with a reasonably complete standard library (which, for scripting disk format conversions, you could probably slim down), something that lot of "embeddable" scripting languages don't. > Lua has other advantages besides being fast and simple: It provides some nice primitives for building up domain-specific languages of sorts, leading to very compact scripts, and is also brain-dead easy to embed into C or C++. Certainly a project Brazil can be proud of. :) --Toby > Python is another option, though it's somewhat larger and more ponderous than Lua. For older machines, it may be wholly inappropriate. > > > - Dave > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 4 20:14:47 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 21:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Tell me how debian is less secure out of the box ? Well, if you're on x86 or x64, which most Debian probably will be, then it's less secure in that it's capable of running the payload of most cracking tools. A VAX isn't, not unless you run an x86 emulator on it (which is definitely not an out-of-the-box configuration). Debian is also less secure in that it's popular enough to have had a lot more cracker attention; Debian-attacking tools are far commoner and far more commonly used than VMS-attacking tools. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 20:51:07 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:51:07 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> On 11/4/2011 6:14 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Tell me how debian is less secure out of the box ? > Well, if you're on x86 or x64, which most Debian probably will be, then > it's less secure in that it's capable of running the payload of most > cracking tools. > > A VAX isn't, not unless you run an x86 emulator on it (which is > definitely not an out-of-the-box configuration). > > Debian is also less secure in that it's popular enough to have had a > lot more cracker attention; Debian-attacking tools are far commoner and > far more commonly used than VMS-attacking tools. > Out of the box Debian has pretty much nothing installed. I don't know of any current vulnerabilities. If they are found they are patched. Can't say the same for VMS 5. When was the last VMS 5 security patch ? It was released in 1988. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 4 20:53:23 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:53:23 -0700 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB49713.4070509@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > And I think (without checking the databooks) that 4000 series will stand > a higher supply voltage thea 74HCxxx Yes. 4000B series are rated for operation at from 3Vto 18V (abs max 20V), while 74HC series are rated for operation from 2V to 6V (abs max 7V). Also 4000B are generally *much* slower (at same voltage) than 74HCxxx parts. For instance, CD4011 prop delay at 5V and 25C is rated 125ns typ, 250ns max, while 74HC00 at 4.5V and 25C is rated 9 ns typ and 18ns max. Each family still has applications where it can't be replaced by the other, which is why (some parts of) both families are still in production. Nowadays my favorite 74xx families are 74ABT and 74LVC. The 74ABT family is great for buffers that need high output drive. The 74LVC family runs on 3.3V but has 5V-tolerant inputs, with low input leakage even when Vdd=0V. I wish there were more 74LVC parts offered in DIP packages for ease of prototyping, but DIP is going the way of the dodo. Ces't la vie. At least the 74LVC240, '245, '373/573, and '374/574 are offered in DIP. I use those when I have to interface 5V inputs to a 3.3V I/O system (i.e., FPGA, microcontroller) that does not have 5V-tolerant I/O. In the other direction, 3.3V CMOS outputs can directly drive 5V chips that have TTL-compatible inputs, but when it is necessary to drive 5V parts that actually expect 5V CMOS input levels, the 74HCT, 74ACT, or 74ABT series is useful. From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Nov 4 21:56:26 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 23:56:26 -0300 Subject: killing the x86 (was: Can anyone explain this to me ?) In-Reply-To: <201111041623.pA4GNrlC014272@floodgap.com> References: <201111041623.pA4GNrlC014272@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201111050158.pA51wcIX055079@billy.ezwind.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Intel seems to know this based on all the times they've tried to kill x86 > off (iAPX 432, i960, etc., even Itanic^WItanium to some degree). Actually, the reason that the 8086 was created in the first place is that the iAPX432 project was getting further and further behind schedule. So saying that the "micro mainframe" was intended to kill the x86 is true in a sense, but a bit odd. The really big decision point for Intel was if they should continue to evolve the 486 or go with the 860 instead. The 960 people wished it were a three way race, but it wasn't and they saw their chip positoned as "intelligent I/O" while the 860 got Unix ported to it. Then the top level decided that the future was with x86 and the 860 became a "graphics coprocessor". It became obvious to the customers that the yet unreleased next version of the 860 would be the last we would ever get and the Unix port (which highlighted the processor's huge problem with switching between tasks) vanished. And yes, the IA64 showed how quickly the lesson of the 860 was forgotten. -- Jecel From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 4 20:58:44 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 18:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse at "Nov 4, 11 09:14:47 pm" Message-ID: <201111050158.pA51wiY5011280@floodgap.com> > > Tell me how debian is less secure out of the box ? > > Well, if you're on x86 or x64, which most Debian probably will be, then > it's less secure in that it's capable of running the payload of most > cracking tools. > > A VAX isn't, not unless you run an x86 emulator on it (which is > definitely not an out-of-the-box configuration). > > Debian is also less secure in that it's popular enough to have had a > lot more cracker attention; Debian-attacking tools are far commoner and > far more commonly used than VMS-attacking tools. Devil's advocate: isn't this the old "security by obscurity" argument? Not that I'm not guilty of the same; I use PPC 10.4, which theoretically could probably be owned, but in practice almost certainly won't be, especially if the browser is kept up to date, ahem. But this is a different argument than if the vulnerabilities exist. I think a VAX (or insert name of unusual operating system and architecture configuration here) is probably more secure in practice but mostly because relatively few people know how to bust into one. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 4 21:00:28 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 19:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lua - Re: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB48D42.80504@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Nov 4, 11 09:11:30 pm" Message-ID: <201111050200.pA520S0o012500@floodgap.com> > Lua has other advantages besides being fast and simple: It provides some > nice primitives for building up domain-specific languages of sorts, > leading to very compact scripts, and is also brain-dead easy to embed > into C or C++. I loved Lua on PalmOS. Plua was a joy to write apps in, but it came along too late. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Those wise enough to avoid politics are governed by those who aren't. ------ From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 21:03:51 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:03:51 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> On 11/4/2011 6:04 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Good way to alienate any possible supporters you may have. Many of us > out here have experience with classic hardware and software and > current hardware and software. In my last gig we used a couple > different Operating Systems and NONE were trusted out of the box, they > were all hardened as some of our machines lived in the corporate DMZ. > Anyone who suggested that any OS was secure enough right out of the > box would have been laughed out of the office. What do you mean out of the box ? What would you do to a current Debian distro to make it more secure ? You can't even install it without setting passwords and no services are turned on. If you add services they are at super paranoid settings until you adjust them so you can actually use them for anything. The whole internet is running on linux now like it or not. It is pretty darn secure as a server. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 4 21:05:24 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 22:05:24 -0400 Subject: Digital typesetting hardware - Re: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <201111041510.pA4FAlTU087151@ultimate.com> References: <201111041510.pA4FAlTU087151@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <4EB499E4.7090202@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/11 11:10 AM, Phil Budne wrote: >> From: "Shoppa, Tim" >> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:22:01 -0400 > ..... >> There was at least one other company that specialized in typesetting >> for classified ads that used PDP-11's for typesetting. Their name is >> not coming to mind at the moment but they were surprisingly common >> at metropolitan newspapers. I remember them using the 3270-like >> capabilities of VT-oh-something terminals. > > I don't know if this is what you were thinking of, but... ATEX made > PDP-11 based systems for newspapers. I remember a DEC FORTRAN-10/20 > co-worker in the 1980's telling us how much better their editing > terminals were than TOPS-20 EMACS we were using. He showed us a > picture of a LARGE custom keyboard (one that put the ungainly PC > inspired Mac keyboards of the 1990's that people used to call "The > Enterprise" (after the aircraft carrier, and perhaps IBM as well!) to > shame). You mean one of this genre? http://www.flickr.com/photos/qu1j0t3/4682848332/in/set-72157624233444734 (Berthold typesetting system keyboard which connected to an OEM Sun workstation). Since we are talking about digital typesetting - the famous digital font creation system URW IKARUS ran on VAX gear - including 11/750*, I believe. I don't have details handy (Wikipedia might) but I believe this system was licensed to essentially all the major type foundries (Letraset UK and ITC (US) were notable users). After the letterforms were digitised from hand drawings (using a puck) they were used to create analogue products such as dry transfer lettering and photosetting masters, as well as a wide variety of digital vector and bitmap formats (yes, digital typefaces have been around quite a long time). In the late 1980s, the IKARUS system was ported to Macintosh as IKARUS/M and could produce PostScript fonts directly. --Toby * - Like mine! http://www.flickr.com/photos/qu1j0t3/4684199492/in/set-72157624233444734 > > ... > > phil > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 4 21:07:32 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:07:32 -0700 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <4EB428C0.1884.1DF62A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB3C197.28766.4C6A31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 11 10:42:31 am, <4EB428C0.1884.1DF62A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB49A64.6050503@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > National also had a parallel series of CMOS chips, with 4000 > equivalents, the MM56xx series. Wow, never heard of those. They had MM74Cxxx parts, which were functionally equivalent to the other 74xx parts but with CD4000 equivalent electrical performance and timing. > Did anyone actually use a 4581 ALU in anything? I've always > wondered if anyone built up a CPU from 4000 CMOS... RCA had a bit-slice part in one of their 1970s COSMOS databooks, with an app note in the back, but I've never been able to find that particular COSMOS databook again, so if it went into production at all it must not have lasted very long. My recollection is that it was not as fancy as the Am2901. RCA did make some CMOS parts intended for building a DSP processor. I think I've got a slim "user manual" for them somewhere. Intended for military applications. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 4 21:19:38 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:19:38 -0700 Subject: killing the x86 In-Reply-To: <201111050158.pA51wcIX055079@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201111041623.pA4GNrlC014272@floodgap.com> <201111050158.pA51wcIX055079@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EB49D3A.2010008@brouhaha.com> Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > The really big decision point for Intel was if they should continue to > evolve the 486 or go with the 860 instead. The 960 people wished it were > a three way race, but it wasn't and they saw their chip positoned as > "intelligent I/O" while the 860 got Unix ported to it. The 960 had already lost all hope of being a general-purpose processor by that time. The 960 was the BiiN/P7 processor, with the tag bit and object-oriented operations desupported (and removed in some later versions). It was originally intended to be the replacement of the iAPX 432, in that it was an attempt to take the good parts of the 432 but ditch the complexities of the CISC architecture that were viewed as being a substantial part of the performance problem. Rather than going it alone, Intel partnered with Siemens, and the joint venture became BiiN. It was a market failure, and the 960 came about as Intel tried to salvage something from it. There was no significant push to make the 960 a general purpose processor, as that ship had already sunk. Whether Intel *wanted* to evolve the 486 or the 860 is irrelevant. They needed to make what customers wanted (and thus were willing to purchase), and 99.99% of customers wanted a faster x86. That affected the relative engineering resources that could be put into the followons for the 486 and 860. It's similar to the reason that Intel did NOT get clobbered in the DRAM business; without having an upper management edict to exit DRAM, they had already effectively done so, because wafer starts were allocated to products based on the profitability of those products. (The previous sentence is the only one that I can back up from an official source, which is Andy Grove's book _Only the Paranoid Survive_.) Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 4 21:23:05 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 19:23:05 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB40851.7055.160B12F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Nov 4, 11 12:48:59 pm", <201111042205.pA4M5woA014342@floodgap.com> <4EB40851.7055.160B12F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB49E09.2040609@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Without someone the stature of Bob Pease to back me up, I'll stick my > foot into this thread at the expense of losing it by saying I've seen > very few digital designs that could compete with a well adjusted > analog PLL data separator and associated filters. With regard to data separators for reading magnetic media in real time, I would agree with you. However, for archiving legacy magnetic media, a DPLL in software has the potential to be far better than any analog PLL, precisely because it is effectively possible to throw an arbitrary amount of computation at it. On the other hand, a naive implementation of a DPLL data separator will certainly have worse performance than a good analog PLL. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 4 21:33:54 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 22:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> References: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111050233.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > What would you do to a current Debian distro to make it more secure ? Boot the NetBSD install CD. Of course, that's what I'd generally do with any flavour of Linux, at least if I'm going to be the one using it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 4 21:43:12 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 22:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111050158.pA51wiY5011280@floodgap.com> References: <201111050158.pA51wiY5011280@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201111050243.WAA18819@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Tell me how debian is less secure out of the box ? >> Well, if you're on x86 or x64, which most Debian probably will be, >> then it's less secure in that it's capable of running the payload of >> most cracking tools. [...] > Devil's advocate: isn't this the old "security by obscurity" > argument? In a sense. It's not the way the phrase is usually used, but it's certainly not entirely unfair to look at it that way. But to think that, because security through obscurity is pretty much worthless against a targeted attack, it has no place, is to fail to look at the threat model. > I think a VAX (or insert name of unusual operating system and > architecture configuration here) is probably more secure in practice > but mostly because relatively few people know how to bust into one. Exactly. And, on a net where one is exposed daily, hourly, in some cases minutely (to abuse a spelling that usually means something else), to automated breakin attempts from botnets looking to spread? I think calling inherent immunity to them "more secure" is fair. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:23:23 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:23:23 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111050233.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> <201111050233.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EB4AC2B.8000102@gmail.com> On 11/4/2011 7:33 PM, Mouse wrote: >> What would you do to a current Debian distro to make it more secure ? > Boot the NetBSD install CD. We are heading into platform war territory here but, shouldn't that be OpenBSD ? Security was their claim to fame over NetBSD. Still it wouldn't be any more secure than a current linux install. I think we are talking about things as they were ten years ago. Today most OS are really pretty tight out of the box. Much more so then they were in 1988 or 2010 for that matter. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:30:14 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 01:30:14 -0200 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? References: <4EB3C197.28766.4C6A31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 11 10:42:31 am, <4EB428C0.1884.1DF62A8@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB49A64.6050503@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <00CD0834D9D04D5F9D619D93C60CEAA7@portajara> > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > National also had a parallel series of CMOS chips, with 4000 > > equivalents, the MM56xx series. > Wow, never heard of those. They had MM74Cxxx parts, which were > functionally equivalent to the other 74xx parts but with CD4000 > equivalent electrical performance and timing. These were common in Yaesu and Kenwood HAM radios From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 4 22:54:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:54:31 -0700 Subject: Digital typesetting hardware - Re: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <4EB499E4.7090202@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <201111041510.pA4FAlTU087151@ultimate.com>, <4EB499E4.7090202@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB45107.14523.27CB80F@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 22:05, Toby Thain wrote: > Since we are talking about digital typesetting - the famous digital > font creation system URW IKARUS ran on VAX gear - including 11/750*, I > believe. I don't have details handy (Wikipedia might) but I believe > this system was licensed to essentially all the major type foundries > (Letraset UK and ITC (US) were notable users). After the letterforms > were digitised from hand drawings (using a puck) they were used to > create analogue products such as dry transfer lettering and > photosetting masters, as well as a wide variety of digital vector and > bitmap formats (yes, digital typefaces have been around quite a long > time). Does anyone have the encoding for Compugraphic typesetter files? I imagine that it's related to the the various font carts were organized. plus a bunch of kerning, etc. information. I've still got some 8" floppy document samples where the alphabet is Hebrew. Always wondered what those said.. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 4 23:00:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 21:00:27 -0700 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <4EB49713.4070509@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EB49713.4070509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2011 at 18:53, Eric Smith wrote: > In the other direction, 3.3V CMOS outputs can directly drive 5V chips > that have TTL-compatible inputs, but when it is necessary to drive 5V > parts that actually expect 5V CMOS input levels, the 74HCT, 74ACT, or > 74ABT series is useful. Do there exist any split supply (3.3V/5V) level converter chips in DIP? When you're building a circuit where anybody or their cousin can tie something to your interface, you'd like the chip most likely to get fried by a careless user to be in an easily replaceable form. I've got tubes and tubes of RS422 transceiver chips in DIP. I've thought about using those on a one-off project as level shifters. Just use one leg of the differential pair. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 4 23:07:00 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 21:07:00 -0700 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <4EB49A64.6050503@brouhaha.com> References: <4EB3C197.28766.4C6A31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 11 10:42:31 am, <4EB428C0.1884.1DF62A8@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB49A64.6050503@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <27A87469-BA2A-481C-8A91-B5DEE093ADB1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Nov 4, at 7:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > National also had a parallel series of CMOS chips, with 4000 > > equivalents, the MM56xx series. > > Wow, never heard of those. They had MM74Cxxx parts, which were > functionally equivalent to the other 74xx parts but with CD4000 > equivalent electrical performance and timing. > > > Did anyone actually use a 4581 ALU in anything? I've always > > wondered if anyone built up a CPU from 4000 CMOS... > > RCA had a bit-slice part in one of their 1970s COSMOS databooks, > with an app note in the back, but I've never been able to find that > particular COSMOS databook again, so if it went into production at > all it must not have lasted very long. My recollection is that it > was not as fancy as the Am2901. The CD40181 (and 40182) is mentioned in some RCA COS/MOS databooks from the 70s. Exactly what the name suggests: a CMOS version of the 74181 4-bit ALU. > RCA did make some CMOS parts intended for building a DSP processor. > I think I've got a slim "user manual" for them somewhere. Intended > for military applications. Fairchild made some funky bit-slice ALU, register stack, etc., devices in the 70s (I think we have spoken of them here before). From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 4 23:20:08 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 00:20:08 -0400 Subject: Lua - Re: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111050200.pA520S0o012500@floodgap.com> References: <201111050200.pA520S0o012500@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB4B978.501@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/11/11 10:00 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Lua has other advantages besides being fast and simple: It provides some >> nice primitives for building up domain-specific languages of sorts, >> leading to very compact scripts, and is also brain-dead easy to embed >> into C or C++. > > I loved Lua on PalmOS. Plua was a joy to write apps in, but it came along > too late. > Here's one for Lua fans that I just stumbled on: "How the embeddability of Lua impacted its design" http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1983083 --Toby From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 23:55:17 2011 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 00:55:17 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> References: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kernel exploits do exist. External attacks aren't always the ones that bring you down. Not every single working exploit is patched or even publicized. On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:03 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 6:04 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >> Good way to alienate any possible supporters you may have. Many of us out >> here have experience with classic hardware and software and current hardware >> and software. In my last gig we used a couple different Operating Systems >> and NONE were trusted out of the box, they were all hardened as some of our >> machines lived in the corporate DMZ. Anyone who suggested that any OS was >> secure enough right out of the box would have been laughed out of the >> office. > > What do you mean out of the box ? What would you do to a current Debian > distro to make it more secure ? You can't even install it without setting > passwords and no services are turned on. If you add services they are at > super paranoid settings until you adjust them so you can actually use them > for anything. The whole internet is running on linux now like it or not. It > is pretty darn secure as a server. > > > > > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 01:04:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 02:04:31 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? Message-ID: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> Four Ubuntu 11.11 machines in the past week, thanks, and that's even when it isn't my job. Please don't assume knowing something about VMS implies NOT knowing something about UNIX. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA leaknoil wrote: >On 11/4/2011 5:07 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> Hell, I'd offer up that VMS 5 was more secure than your average unix >> variant right out of the box. >> >> g. >> > >I get the feeling you guys haven't installed a current linux distro in a >very long time. Tell me how debian is less secure out of the box ? Oh >you can't. Right sorry. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 01:13:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 02:13:09 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? Message-ID: <0qxnvxdpwbsqmmh0t94gl3q9.1320473589783@email.android.com> Heh. OpenBSD's original claim to fame was that it provided a certain arrogant ass with a way to thumb his nose at his peers. I'm glad enough grownups eventually joined in to make it a useful project. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA leaknoil wrote: >On 11/4/2011 7:33 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> What would you do to a current Debian distro to make it more secure ? >> Boot the NetBSD install CD. >We are heading into platform war territory here but, shouldn't that be >OpenBSD ? Security was their claim to fame over NetBSD. Still it >wouldn't be any more secure than a current linux install. I think we are >talking about things as they were ten years ago. Today most OS are >really pretty tight out of the box. Much more so then they were in 1988 >or 2010 for that matter. From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 01:39:42 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 23:39:42 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> References: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> Message-ID: <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> On 11/4/2011 11:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Four Ubuntu 11.11 machines in the past week, thanks, and that's even when it isn't my job. Please don't assume knowing something about VMS implies NOT knowing something about UNIX. > > -Dave > Oh you installed four Ubuntu desktops. Obviously you are an expert. You must know a lot about unix to install Ubuntu. I wish I was like you. You win. From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 01:45:32 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2011 23:45:32 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <0qxnvxdpwbsqmmh0t94gl3q9.1320473589783@email.android.com> References: <0qxnvxdpwbsqmmh0t94gl3q9.1320473589783@email.android.com> Message-ID: <4EB4DB8C.6090001@gmail.com> On 11/4/2011 11:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Heh. OpenBSD's original claim to fame was that it provided a certain arrogant ass with a way to thumb his nose at his peers. I'm glad enough grownups eventually joined in to make it a useful project. > > -Dave > An arrogant ass that is actually a really nice guy and someone I considered a friend in the 90's. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 01:47:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 02:47:03 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> References: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <473DD6CC-C5A4-49F0-83DD-4F402B918304@neurotica.com> On Nov 5, 2011, at 2:39 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 11:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Four Ubuntu 11.11 machines in the past week, thanks, and that's even when it isn't my job. Please don't assume knowing something about VMS implies NOT knowing something about UNIX. >> >> -Dave >> > > Oh you installed four Ubuntu desktops. Obviously you are an expert. You must know a lot about unix to install Ubuntu. I wish I was like you. You win. THIS WEEK, Sparky. Fuck off. Bigger UNIX manhood is a fight you will not win here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From hexsane at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 01:59:14 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 01:59:14 -0500 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( Message-ID: In the early 2ks I had gotten my hands on several VAXen (VAX Stations, MicroVAXen and QBUS Rack and Pedestals). Lacking the space and having a money crisis I had to give up all of them. Now I want another one so I can fire up NetBSD :) Anyone have a spare VAX Station or other small VAX sitting around they want to part with? Or even a larger one if you're close to Omaha. ;) -Matt From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 02:02:49 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 00:02:49 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <473DD6CC-C5A4-49F0-83DD-4F402B918304@neurotica.com> References: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> <473DD6CC-C5A4-49F0-83DD-4F402B918304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB4DF99.3020006@gmail.com> On 11/4/2011 11:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ut unix to install Ubuntu. I wish I was like you. You win. > THIS WEEK, Sparky. Fuck off. Bigger UNIX manhood is a fight you will not win here. > > -Dave > Probably I would. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 02:06:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:06:15 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB4DB8C.6090001@gmail.com> References: <0qxnvxdpwbsqmmh0t94gl3q9.1320473589783@email.android.com> <4EB4DB8C.6090001@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2011, at 2:45 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 11:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Heh. OpenBSD's original claim to fame was that it provided a certain arrogant ass with a way to thumb his nose at his peers. I'm glad enough grownups eventually joined in to make it a useful project. >> > > An arrogant ass that is actually a really nice guy and someone I considered a friend in the 90's. You're the first person I've ever heard say that. He's pissed all over quite a few people I know, myself included. I don't think he's a nice guy at all. I'm glad to hear there was a better side of him; he'd do well to not keep it such a secret. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 02:07:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:07:48 -0400 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E9B1482-4B73-4850-9367-B5C12A61DE30@neurotica.com> On Nov 5, 2011, at 2:59 AM, Matthew Hudson wrote: > In the early 2ks I had gotten my hands on several VAXen (VAX Stations, > MicroVAXen and QBUS Rack and Pedestals). Lacking the space and having a > money crisis I had to give up all of them. Now I want another one so I can > fire up NetBSD :) > > Anyone have a spare VAX Station or other small VAX sitting around they want > to part with? Or even a larger one if you're close to Omaha. ;) I'm sure I can scare up a spare 3100-series machine to ship out to you once my move is complete. If you don't get one on the meantime, ping me in a few weeks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 02:10:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:10:09 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB364A1.5010101@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB354D9.9010202@gmail.com> <4EB35AD7.5030001@neurotica.com> <4EB364A1.5010101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39DDCBC3-3CAE-48C1-82FD-73AD65A8196B@neurotica.com> On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:05 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/3/2011 8:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> You're not kiddin'! Carly Fiorina's main qualifying attributes seemed to be her degree in history (!) and the idea that she was, at one time, almost attractive. >> >> Meg Whitman is at least an intelligent person. I think she has a chance at doing some good IF she breaks with American CEO tradition and listens to people who know how the business really works and take their advice. I think she'd do well in the execution but probably not the overall steering. >> >> -Dave >> > Ebay was, and is, a monopoly. They are pretty easy to run. Before that she was an executive dealing with kids and toy products. We'll see. I see nothing in her resume that would make me think she can turn around HP. Already they've flip flopped on killing of the PC division and then not killing it off in the same week. Killing off webos or not. Maybe she is just there to wind it down. I could see that. She is fully qualified to gracefully shut down a company without causing a lot of ripples in the market. Hmm. You're probably right, though I sure hope not. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 02:11:32 2011 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:11:32 -0400 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a DECstation 5000/240 available for $100 + s/h (no framebuffer card) available, if that's of any interest to you.. (untested, retrieved from storage site with a ton of NeXT gear! ) On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 2:59 AM, Matthew Hudson wrote: > ?In the early 2ks I had gotten my hands on several VAXen (VAX Stations, > MicroVAXen and QBUS Rack and Pedestals). Lacking the space and having a > money crisis I had to give up all of them. Now I want another one so I can > fire up NetBSD :) > > Anyone have a spare VAX Station or other small VAX sitting around they want > to part with? Or even a larger one if you're close to Omaha. ;) > > -Matt > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 02:11:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:11:52 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB4DF99.3020006@gmail.com> References: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> <473DD6CC-C5A4-49F0-83DD-4F402B918304@neurotica.com> <4EB4DF99.3020006@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2011, at 3:02 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 11:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ut unix to install Ubuntu. I wish I was like you. You win. >> THIS WEEK, Sparky. Fuck off. Bigger UNIX manhood is a fight you will not win here. >> >> -Dave >> > Probably I would. I'm content to not be enough of an asshole to let you start that fight, but if you really want to, we can take it to private email. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 02:15:40 2011 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:15:40 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB4DF99.3020006@gmail.com> References: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> <473DD6CC-C5A4-49F0-83DD-4F402B918304@neurotica.com> <4EB4DF99.3020006@gmail.com> Message-ID: just my 2c ... I've always considered VMS more OOB secure than most other OSes, but I don't go around proseletyzing or forcing my opinion down other's throats, I'd only interject with factual information, even if it hurt my cause. This *ENTIRE THREAD*(as it regarded OS security) i've seen *NOTHING* but name calling, bullshit, and hearsay. Where's your facts? Your data? your information to back up your stances? It's easier to prove VMS as less secure than Linux, so go ahead and do that with some examples. Or, if you think it easier, prove Linux as more secure than anything, with concrete examples that can't be bypassed. Long story short: put up or shut up. You're (not the immediate person i'm replying to) coming off as agressive, hot headed, and a goddamn fanboy. Just back down, and contribute to a reasonable factual discussion. -PLEASE-. On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 3:02 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 11:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> ut unix to install Ubuntu. I wish I was like you. You win. >> ? THIS WEEK, Sparky. ?Fuck off. ?Bigger UNIX manhood is a fight you will >> not win here. >> >> ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >> > Probably I would. > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 5 02:16:30 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 00:16:30 -0700 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <27A87469-BA2A-481C-8A91-B5DEE093ADB1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4EB3C197.28766.4C6A31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 11 10:42:31 am, <4EB428C0.1884.1DF62A8@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB49A64.6050503@brouhaha.com> <27A87469-BA2A-481C-8A91-B5DEE093ADB1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4EB4E2CE.3090708@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Did anyone actually use a 4581 ALU in anything? I've always > wondered if anyone built up a CPU from 4000 CMOS... I wrote: > RCA had a bit-slice part in one of their 1970s COSMOS databooks, > with an app note in the back, but I've never been able to find that > particular COSMOS databook again, so if it went into production > at all it must not have lasted very long. My recollection is that it > was not as fancy as the Am2901. Brent Hilpert wrote: > The CD40181 (and 40182) is mentioned in some RCA COS/MOS > databooks from the 70s. Exactly what the name suggests: a > CMOS version of the 74181 4-bit ALU. Same with the 4581/4582. Possibly different part numbers assigned by different vendors for effectively the same part. I was referring to a more integrated bit-slice part, though since I can't find any docs on it now, I have no idea what the part number was nor the exact functions included. > Fairchild made some funky bit-slice ALU, register stack, etc., > devices in the 70s (I think we have spoken of them here before). The Fairchild Macrologic parts (9401-9410 bipolar, 4701-4710 CMOS) are reasonably well known, but I'm still looking for datasheets for their much earlier 3800 and 3804 MOS ALU chips. From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 02:16:35 2011 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:16:35 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> <473DD6CC-C5A4-49F0-83DD-4F402B918304@neurotica.com> <4EB4DF99.3020006@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah, actually. I was wrong. the person I was directly replying to was the one this was addressed to. On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 3:15 AM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > just my 2c ... I've always considered VMS more OOB secure than most > other OSes, but I don't go around proseletyzing or forcing my opinion > down other's throats, I'd only interject with factual information, > even if it hurt my cause. > > This *ENTIRE THREAD*(as it regarded OS security) i've seen *NOTHING* > but name calling, bullshit, and hearsay. > > Where's your facts? Your data? your information to back up your stances? > > It's easier to prove VMS as less secure than Linux, so go ahead and do > that with some examples. > > Or, if you think it easier, prove Linux as more secure than anything, > with concrete examples that can't be bypassed. > > Long story short: put up or shut up. You're (not the immediate person > i'm replying to) coming off as agressive, hot headed, and a goddamn > fanboy. Just back down, and contribute to a reasonable factual > discussion. -PLEASE-. > > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 3:02 AM, leaknoil wrote: >> On 11/4/2011 11:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> ut unix to install Ubuntu. I wish I was like you. You win. >>> ? THIS WEEK, Sparky. ?Fuck off. ?Bigger UNIX manhood is a fight you will >>> not win here. >>> >>> ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >>> >> Probably I would. >> > > > > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 02:20:46 2011 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 03:20:46 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> References: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: Passwords are insecure... you don't use certificate based auth for remote access and restrict password auth to only the local terminal? Even that's insecure... On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:03 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 6:04 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >> Good way to alienate any possible supporters you may have. Many of us out >> here have experience with classic hardware and software and current hardware >> and software. In my last gig we used a couple different Operating Systems >> and NONE were trusted out of the box, they were all hardened as some of our >> machines lived in the corporate DMZ. Anyone who suggested that any OS was >> secure enough right out of the box would have been laughed out of the >> office. > > What do you mean out of the box ? What would you do to a current Debian > distro to make it more secure ? You can't even install it without setting > passwords and no services are turned on. If you add services they are at > super paranoid settings until you adjust them so you can actually use them > for anything. The whole internet is running on linux now like it or not. It > is pretty darn secure as a server. > > > > > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From trestivo at cfl.rr.com Fri Nov 4 12:38:07 2011 From: trestivo at cfl.rr.com (THOM RESTIVO) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:38:07 -0400 Subject: Puzzling error message Message-ID: When running OS8 on a PDP8/a system I get an error message that reads "ahain error". Has anyone ever seen or heard of this. I cannot find info anywhere on this. One thought we have is that maybe the message should read "chain error" and was mis-spelled in the program that generates it. Any thoughts? Thom From tingox at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 17:24:55 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 23:24:55 +0100 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a quantity of these which probably have the imfamous sticky > rubber bumper. If anyone wishes to mank an offer, please contact me > off list. Doesn't one need a clean room to fix that problem? (I've got a Micropolis 1325 which seems to have that problem) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From philpem at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 4 21:42:11 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 02:42:11 +0000 Subject: Lua - Re: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <201111050200.pA520S0o012500@floodgap.com> References: <201111050200.pA520S0o012500@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB4A283.70300@philpem.me.uk> On 05/11/11 02:00, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Lua has other advantages besides being fast and simple: It provides some >> nice primitives for building up domain-specific languages of sorts, >> leading to very compact scripts, and is also brain-dead easy to embed >> into C or C++. > > I loved Lua on PalmOS. Plua was a joy to write apps in, but it came along > too late. > Alright guys, you've made your point... The Lua-based decoder engine will be further developed...! -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 5 03:40:20 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 08:40:20 -0000 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > Sent: 04 November 2011 22:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives > > Hi, > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Paul Anderson > wrote: > > I have a quantity of these which probably have the imfamous sticky > > rubber bumper. If anyone wishes to mank an offer, please contact me > > off list. > > Doesn't one need a clean room to fix that problem? > (I've got a Micropolis 1325 which seems to have that problem) > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen Personally I have unstuck 1325 drives without a clean room and not had any problems, but that has been for hobbyist purposes only and I would not want to guarantee that it will be fine for you. Regards Rob From cb at kryoflux.com Sat Nov 5 04:24:44 2011 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 10:24:44 +0100 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <627F3614-08EE-4A9B-8CE7-FC53E72D4AA9@kryoflux.com> > Being a hardware geek myself, are current schematics available for the > kryoflux? I had asked a year or so ago and got pointed to old schematics > that were a couple revisions out of date. Just download the latest software package, it has the schematics included. Enjoy. Cheers, Chris From cb at kryoflux.com Sat Nov 5 04:29:06 2011 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 10:29:06 +0100 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I may be dense today, but after digging through the kryoflux.org site I'm > not having any luck finding the schematic. Don't be shy, download the software (Win32/64 is latest). It's free, no registration required, and schematics are included. Cheers! From cb at kryoflux.com Sat Nov 5 04:37:22 2011 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 10:37:22 +0100 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <821FD5AE-184F-4883-B5AB-7DA3FE83814C@kryoflux.com> > A meta-comment: I've been watching the KryoFlux discussion and, > whatever I may think of the hardware[1] or past management policies[2], > I'm very positively impressed with the people who are representing > KryoFlux[3] here. > [..] > > [1] What I've heard sounds good; I've never even seen it personally, so > I can't say much authoritatively.[4] > > > [4] Given that it hooks up to a stock drive (at least that's the > impression I've gotten) and is largely open and getting opener, I'm > tempted to get one against possible future need. (I'm not thrilled > by USB, but I've got enough USB-capable machines, and will likely > get more, that it's tolerable. And, while I currently have no real > use for it, it is not unlikely that will change someday, and I'd > hate to discover them gone when I do want their product.) Chuck has passed the offer of trying the board for free (ok, return postage, as I can't print a US or Canadian label from here). If you want to try it, please feel free to chime in. I just can't change the status of the software for now, so you would have to go with the binaries. Cheers! From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Nov 5 06:30:35 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 07:30:35 -0400 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? Message-ID: > RCA had a bit-slice part in one of their 1970s COSMOS databooks, with an > app note in the back, but I've never been able to find that particular > COSMOS databook again I think... it was in the back of one of their memory databooks. I think that everybody except AMD really fell flat trying to fit bitslice parts into their marketing. From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Nov 5 06:54:36 2011 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 07:54:36 -0400 Subject: Puzzling error message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111051154.pA5BsZ9H017225@rickmurphy.net> At 01:38 PM 11/4/2011, THOM RESTIVO wrote: >When running OS8 on a PDP8/a system I get an error message that reads >"ahain >error". Has anyone ever seen or heard of this. I cannot find info anywhere >on this. One thought we have is that maybe the message should read "chain >error" and was mis-spelled in the program that generates it. Any thoughts? The OS/8 USR (User Service Routine) has a CHAIN function that allows a program to exit and start up another program. For example, the FORTRAN compiler has multiple phases and chains from one phase to the next. CHAIN requires that the program being chained to be on the system boot device (SYS:), otherwise you'll get a CHAIN ERROR message from USR. What program are you using when you see this error? Are you running that from the SYS device? If not, that's the fix. As far as the "AHAIN" versus "CHAIN" - I don't know why it's spelled incorrectly, but it wouldn't surprise me that it's someone's idea for bumming a bit for some reason from an infrequent error message. -Rick From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 5 08:19:54 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: Digital typesetting hardware - Re: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <4EB45107.14523.27CB80F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201111041510.pA4FAlTU087151@ultimate.com> <4EB499E4.7090202@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB45107.14523.27CB80F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201111051321.pA5DLdOY065106@billy.ezwind.net> At 10:54 PM 11/4/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Does anyone have the encoding for Compugraphic typesetter files? I >imagine that it's related to the the various font carts were >organized. plus a bunch of kerning, etc. information. Their font file format, or the typesetter's layout of a document? I think I scanned my circa 1990 CG developer's kit from a project I did for Software Publishing Corp. - John From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 5 08:25:55 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:25:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB4AC2B.8000102@gmail.com> References: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> <201111050233.WAA18659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4AC2B.8000102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111051325.JAA27286@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> What would you do to a current Debian distro [...]? >> Boot the NetBSD install CD. > We are heading into platform war territory here but, shouldn't that > be OpenBSD ? Security was their claim to fame over NetBSD. They made more noise about it; while I haven't taken a close enough look to be sure, I'm not convinced there's any significant real difference between them on those grounds. But both my choice of NetBSD and my incompetence to compare the two accurately derive from much the same thing: thanks to couple of dust-ups I've had with Theo, I won't have anything to do with anything he's more than trivially involved in. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 5 08:40:04 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 08:40:04 -0500 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <4EB49E09.2040609@brouhaha.com> References: <4EB4177B.5010506@arachelian.com> <201111042205.pA4M5woA014342@floodgap.com> <4EB40851.7055.160B12F@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB49E09.2040609@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201111051352.pA5Dqc0F065624@billy.ezwind.net> At 09:23 PM 11/4/2011, Eric Smith wrote: >With regard to data separators for reading magnetic media in real time, I would agree with you. However, for archiving legacy magnetic media, a DPLL in software has the potential to be far better than any analog PLL, precisely because it is effectively possible to throw an arbitrary amount of computation at it. After all, legacy media (and the equipment that made it) can have problems. Which method handles problems best? Are some problems (like misaligned tracks) only solvable by alternative reading hardware? - John From vrs at msn.com Sat Nov 5 11:00:16 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:00:16 -0700 Subject: Puzzling error message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > When running OS8 on a PDP8/a system I get an error message that reads "ahain > error". Has anyone ever seen or heard of this. I cannot find info anywhere > on this. One thought we have is that maybe the message should read "chain > error" and was mis-spelled in the program that generates it. Any thoughts? If you were running on a simulator, I'd say the ISZ loops designed to let the TTY finish (in the event of a chain error) weren't taking long enough. Since you're on a real 8/A, I'd suggest running a memory diagnostic. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 11:11:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 09:11:51 -0700 Subject: Digital typesetting hardware - Re: another weird pdp 11/70 color scheme In-Reply-To: <201111051321.pA5DLdOY065106@billy.ezwind.net> References: , <4EB45107.14523.27CB80F@cclist.sydex.com>, <201111051321.pA5DLdOY065106@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EB4FDD7.4150.C5009@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2011 at 8:19, John Foust wrote: > At 10:54 PM 11/4/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >Does anyone have the encoding for Compugraphic typesetter files? I > >imagine that it's related to the the various font carts were > >organized. plus a bunch of kerning, etc. information. > > Their font file format, or the typesetter's layout of a document? I > think I scanned my circa 1990 CG developer's kit from a project I did > for Software Publishing Corp. Well, mostly hints for getting from a 1970s-era CG floppy to something that's humanly readable. The whole shebang. all seems to be CG proprietary; i.e., I can't even find an identifiable file directory on the disk.. I have a couple of 5.25" CG floppies and they appear to have nothing in common with the old 8" disks. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 5 11:47:24 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Nov 2011, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 6:14 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Tell me how debian is less secure out of the box ? >> Well, if you're on x86 or x64, which most Debian probably will be, then >> it's less secure in that it's capable of running the payload of most >> cracking tools. >> >> A VAX isn't, not unless you run an x86 emulator on it (which is >> definitely not an out-of-the-box configuration). >> >> Debian is also less secure in that it's popular enough to have had a >> lot more cracker attention; Debian-attacking tools are far commoner and >> far more commonly used than VMS-attacking tools. >> > Out of the box Debian has pretty much nothing installed. I don't know of any > current vulnerabilities. If they are found they are patched. Can't say the > same for VMS 5. When was the last VMS 5 security patch ? It was released in > 1988. > Please either list the known vulnerabilities in VMS v5 or quit talking out your ass. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 5 11:52:03 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> References: <916dgcof0nabxvt8k41h7s32.1320473071538@email.android.com> <4EB4DA2E.3020409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Nov 2011, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 11:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Four Ubuntu 11.11 machines in the past week, thanks, and that's even >> when it isn't my job. Please don't assume knowing something about VMS >> implies NOT knowing something about UNIX. >> >> -Dave >> > > Oh you installed four Ubuntu desktops. Obviously you are an expert. You must > know a lot about unix to install Ubuntu. I wish I was like you. You win. > It's not that bright to insult a guy that could take a gunshot to the head and still be twice as smart as you are. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 5 11:52:48 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Matthew Hudson wrote: > In the early 2ks I had gotten my hands on several VAXen (VAX Stations, > MicroVAXen and QBUS Rack and Pedestals). Lacking the space and having a > money crisis I had to give up all of them. Now I want another one so I can > fire up NetBSD :) > > Anyone have a spare VAX Station or other small VAX sitting around they want > to part with? Or even a larger one if you're close to Omaha. ;) > I miss my 8250. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From vintagecoder at aol.com Sat Nov 5 11:57:49 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:57:49 +0000 Subject: John McCarthy [for Gene B, not McCarthy related] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201111051657.pA5GsKYh024144@ims-m12.mx.aol.com> >> The editor/IDE that comes with FreePascal that Gene B pointed me to has >> a very MSDOS/TurboPascal look and feel. > fpide? That was done on purpose. :) > >g. Yeah, that's the impression I got. Just seeing that was kind of a thrill. Thanks for pointing me to that project. There's a hell of a lot of work that went into that whole system. Some really nice stuff. Got distracted again and haven't given it the attention I wanted but first impressions were indeed impressive. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 12:42:22 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: various S-100 PCBs for home brew projects Message-ID: <1320514942.46100.YahooMailClassic@web180211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I am getting ready to order some home brew S-100 8086 CPU PCBs. They'll be $20 each with $3 shipping in the US and $6 shipping elsewhere. Please let me know if you want to be in this batch. There is more information here: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%208086%20CPU%20board http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%20CPU%20Board.htm There are plenty of other S-100 PCBs left too http://www.ebay.com/sch/lynchkl/m.html Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 5 12:46:47 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 11:46:47 -0600 Subject: various S-100 PCBs for home brew projects In-Reply-To: <1320514942.46100.YahooMailClassic@web180211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1320514942.46100.YahooMailClassic@web180211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EB57687.4030205@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/5/2011 11:42 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I am getting ready to order some home brew S-100 8086 CPU PCBs. They'll be $20 each with $3 shipping in the US and $6 shipping elsewhere. Please let me know if you want to be in this batch. There is more information here: > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%208086%20CPU%20board > > http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%20CPU%20Board.htm > > There are plenty of other S-100 PCBs left too > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/lynchkl/m.html > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > Does one have to go with ebay? Can I just send you the $$$? From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 5 13:20:41 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacSSH source Message-ID: <201111051820.pA5IKfie010836@floodgap.com> A couple weeks ago people expressed interest in my salvaged MacSSH source and I finally got a round tuit. It's very pretty, all symmetric and frilly, and perfectly circular. I make no guarantees. If you get it working, I want your changes. :) However, I have salvaged as many of the resource forks as I can and manually massaged the files. I have not tried to build it. CW6 or better strongly advised. I threw the .sit into gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/archive/by-request/source-code -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You're only as good as the last problem someone had. -- Ballmer on security From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 5 13:16:21 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 13:16:21 -0500 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:47 AM 11/5/2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >Please either list the known vulnerabilities in VMS v5 or quit talking out your ass. http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=c02002308 Does OpenVMS count? That was the first google hit. - John From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 13:36:32 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 11:36:32 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 11:16 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 11:47 AM 11/5/2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Please either list the known vulnerabilities in VMS v5 or quit talking out your ass. > http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=c02002308 > > Does OpenVMS count? That was the first google hit. > > - John > There are plenty and if anyone had any unpatched ones they certainly wouldn't share them to a public mailing list. He didn't really want an answer though. He was just being a typical pissy internet troll. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 13:43:27 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:43:27 -0400 Subject: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: <201111051820.pA5IKfie010836@floodgap.com> References: <201111051820.pA5IKfie010836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > A couple weeks ago people expressed interest in my salvaged MacSSH source > and I finally got a round tuit. It's very pretty, all symmetric and frilly, > and perfectly circular. > > I make no guarantees. If you get it working, I want your changes. :) However, > I have salvaged as many of the resource forks as I can and manually massaged > the files. I have not tried to build it. CW6 or better strongly advised. Great, thanks! Good job I still have a Gopher-capable browser somewhere on this machine; I'll take a gander at this when I've got time (which could be a while). - Dave From md.benson at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 13:46:38 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:46:38 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards Message-ID: I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a terminal. My Logitech G110 is fine for general work (it's a decent keyboard in it's own right) but the 12 macro keys on the end confuse the b-jebus out of me and also the key-spacing is designed for gamers no typists. I don't want to fudge an older PS/2 keyboard via a USB adapter as it generally doesn't work 100% right and I occasionally get keys dropped or doouble-typed. I also need the 'Windows' keys that a lot of older decent keyboards lack. I'm willing to drop decent money to get one, so anyone got any ideas? -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 5 13:48:20 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 11:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: from David Riley at "Nov 5, 11 02:43:27 pm" Message-ID: <201111051848.pA5ImKDp013114@floodgap.com> > Great, thanks! Good job I still have a Gopher-capable browser somewhere on > this machine; If you have Fx 3.6 or below, Gopher still works. If you have Fx 4.0 or up (this also works in TenFourFox and should work in SeaMonkey), https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/overbiteff/ (disclaimer: I am the primary maintainer) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Smile if you like this tag line. ------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 5 13:56:41 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 11:56:41 -0700 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wish I had a good idea. I'm typing this on an Apple Extended II ADB keyboard plugged into a USB-to-ADB converter so I can use it on my Mac Pro. On the PC I tend to use a no-name keyboard I got 20 years ago, but really like the SGI PS/2 keyboard that came with my O2. I really wish someone would make a good replica of the Apple keyboard, but as a USB keyboard. In part because I love the shelf behind the function keys. This is also why I like the IBM Model M keyboards. I seem to remember someone is making a keyboard like you're looking for, but it isn't cheap. Zane At 6:46 PM +0000 11/5/11, Mark Benson wrote: >I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same >action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards >of 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a >terminal. My Logitech G110 is fine for general work (it's a decent >keyboard in it's own right) but the 12 macro keys on the end confuse >the b-jebus out of me and also the key-spacing is designed for >gamers no typists. > >I don't want to fudge an older PS/2 keyboard via a USB adapter as it >generally doesn't work 100% right and I occasionally get keys >dropped or doouble-typed. I also need the 'Windows' keys that a lot >of older decent keyboards lack. > >I'm willing to drop decent money to get one, so anyone got any ideas? > >-- > >Mark Benson > >http://DECtec.info >Twitter: @DECtecInfo >HECnet: STAR69::MARK > >Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:07:07 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:07:07 -0700 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: try here http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html chris On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same > action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of 'the > day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a terminal. My > Logitech G110 is fine for general work (it's a decent keyboard in it's own > right) but the 12 macro keys on the end confuse the b-jebus out of me and > also the key-spacing is designed for gamers no typists. > > I don't want to fudge an older PS/2 keyboard via a USB adapter as it > generally doesn't work 100% right and I occasionally get keys dropped or > doouble-typed. I also need the 'Windows' keys that a lot of older decent > keyboards lack. > > I'm willing to drop decent money to get one, so anyone got any ideas? > > -- > > Mark Benson > > http://DECtec.info > Twitter: @DECtecInfo > HECnet: STAR69::MARK > > Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 5 14:09:09 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Mark Benson wrote: > I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same > action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of > 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a terminal. > My Logitech G110 is fine for general work (it's a decent keyboard in > it's own right) but the 12 macro keys on the end confuse the b-jebus out > of me and also the key-spacing is designed for gamers no typists. > > I don't want to fudge an older PS/2 keyboard via a USB adapter as it > generally doesn't work 100% right and I occasionally get keys dropped or > doouble-typed. I also need the 'Windows' keys that a lot of older decent > keyboards lack. > > I'm willing to drop decent money to get one, so anyone got any ideas? Try Unicomp at http://www.pckeyboard.com. They have newly-manufactured Model Ms and well as other good keyboards. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 5 14:14:22 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 12:14:22 -0700 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB58B0E.2040002@brouhaha.com> On 11/05/2011 11:46 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same > action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of > 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a terminal. It looks like the CVT Avant Stellar is no longer available. It was a clone of the Northgate OmniKey Ultra-T. The genuine Model M technology went from IBM to their spinoff Lexmark to Unicomp: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html Here are some other options, though I haven't personally tried any of them: Adesso Full Size Mechanical http://www.adesso.com/en/home/keyboards/mechanical-keyboard.html Das Keyboard (available with or without key legends) http://www.daskeyboard.com/ Rosewill Mechanical Keyboard http://www.rosewill.com/products/4/24/296/0000/0,0/series.htm SteelSeries 6Gv2 http://steelseries.com/products/keyboards/steelseries-6gv2 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 5 14:15:29 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 13:15:29 -0600 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/5/2011 12:56 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I wish I had a good idea. I'm typing this on an Apple Extended II ADB > keyboard plugged into a USB-to-ADB converter so I can use it on my Mac > Pro. On the PC I tend to use a no-name keyboard I got 20 years ago, but > really like the SGI PS/2 keyboard that came with my O2. I really wish > someone would make a good replica of the Apple keyboard, but as a USB > keyboard. In part because I love the shelf behind the function keys. > This is also why I like the IBM Model M keyboards. > > I seem to remember someone is making a keyboard like you're looking for, > but it isn't cheap. > Don't forget http://www.clickykeyboards.com/ for more model M's. From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:16:02 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:16:02 -0700 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: like this http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I wish I had a good idea. I'm typing this on an Apple Extended II ADB > keyboard plugged into a USB-to-ADB converter so I can use it on my Mac Pro. > On the PC I tend to use a no-name keyboard I got 20 years ago, but really > like the SGI PS/2 keyboard that came with my O2. I really wish someone > would make a good replica of the Apple keyboard, but as a USB keyboard. In > part because I love the shelf behind the function keys. This is also why I > like the IBM Model M keyboards. > > I seem to remember someone is making a keyboard like you're looking for, > but it isn't cheap. > > Zane > > > > > At 6:46 PM +0000 11/5/11, Mark Benson wrote: > >> I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same >> action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of 'the >> day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a terminal. My >> Logitech G110 is fine for general work (it's a decent keyboard in it's own >> right) but the 12 macro keys on the end confuse the b-jebus out of me and >> also the key-spacing is designed for gamers no typists. >> >> I don't want to fudge an older PS/2 keyboard via a USB adapter as it >> generally doesn't work 100% right and I occasionally get keys dropped or >> doouble-typed. I also need the 'Windows' keys that a lot of older decent >> keyboards lack. >> >> I'm willing to drop decent money to get one, so anyone got any ideas? >> >> -- >> >> Mark Benson >> >> http://DECtec.info >> Twitter: @DECtecInfo >> HECnet: STAR69::MARK >> >> Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. >> > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | > From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:19:58 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:19:58 -0700 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: for the mac people http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/onthestick.html On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > like this > > http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> I wish I had a good idea. I'm typing this on an Apple Extended II ADB >> keyboard plugged into a USB-to-ADB converter so I can use it on my Mac Pro. >> On the PC I tend to use a no-name keyboard I got 20 years ago, but really >> like the SGI PS/2 keyboard that came with my O2. I really wish someone >> would make a good replica of the Apple keyboard, but as a USB keyboard. In >> part because I love the shelf behind the function keys. This is also why I >> like the IBM Model M keyboards. >> >> I seem to remember someone is making a keyboard like you're looking for, >> but it isn't cheap. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> >> At 6:46 PM +0000 11/5/11, Mark Benson wrote: >> >>> I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same >>> action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of 'the >>> day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a terminal. My >>> Logitech G110 is fine for general work (it's a decent keyboard in it's own >>> right) but the 12 macro keys on the end confuse the b-jebus out of me and >>> also the key-spacing is designed for gamers no typists. >>> >>> I don't want to fudge an older PS/2 keyboard via a USB adapter as it >>> generally doesn't work 100% right and I occasionally get keys dropped or >>> doouble-typed. I also need the 'Windows' keys that a lot of older decent >>> keyboards lack. >>> >>> I'm willing to drop decent money to get one, so anyone got any ideas? >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Mark Benson >>> >>> http://DECtec.info >>> Twitter: @DECtecInfo >>> HECnet: STAR69::MARK >>> >>> Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. >>> >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Photographer | >> +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ >> | My flickr Photostream | >> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | >> > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 5 14:20:02 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 15:20:02 -0400 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards References: Message-ID: <7653A350E1524AD1B20638984D477063@dell8300> http://matias.ca/tactilepro3/index.php Don't have one but it uses alps mechanical switches, made for mac but "Support for PC users. The Tactile Pro is a Mac keyboard, but that doesn't mean you can't plug it into a PC and use it - you can. We even offer a downloadable driver to change the Command and Option keys into Alt and Windows keys." From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 14:36:55 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: various S-100 PCBs for home brew projects Message-ID: <1320521815.20777.YahooMailClassic@web180206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ben bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Does one have to go with ebay? Can I just send you the $$$? Yes that would be fine. You don't need to use eBay but for some reason many builders seem to prefer it even though it is more expensive. I don't understand why but I guess that's their choice. It is one of life's many mysteries. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From doc at vaxen.net Sat Nov 5 15:08:49 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 15:08:49 -0500 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> leaknoil wrote: > On 11/5/2011 11:16 AM, John Foust wrote: >> At 11:47 AM 11/5/2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >>> Please either list the known vulnerabilities in VMS v5 or quit >>> talking out your ass. >> http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=c02002308 >> >> >> Does OpenVMS count? That was the first google hit. >> >> - John >> > There are plenty and if anyone had any unpatched ones they certainly > wouldn't share them to a public mailing list. He didn't really want an > answer though. He was just being a typical pissy internet troll. Thank you, Mr. Pot, for identifying the kettle. Seriously, man. You're coming off like a kid who just got his black belt walking into a mountaintop monastery and challenging all the monks. In other words, you've bit off way more than you can chew here. Doc Shipley From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 15:27:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 13:27:36 -0700 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> If you have a PS/2-interface keyboard that you really like, spend some money on a real PS/2-to-USB *converter*, not just a connector adapter (which most cheap ones are). The pckeyboard site has some suggestions. There's really no reason that a real adapter can't be every bit as good as a native USB keyboard. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 15:31:28 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:31:28 -0400 Subject: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: <201111051848.pA5ImKDp013114@floodgap.com> References: <201111051848.pA5ImKDp013114@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8845D894-3CEC-4B4D-807D-50921C9D5BA5@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2011, at 2:48 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Great, thanks! Good job I still have a Gopher-capable browser somewhere on >> this machine; > > If you have Fx 3.6 or below, Gopher still works. > If you have Fx 4.0 or up (this also works in TenFourFox and should work > in SeaMonkey), > > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/overbiteff/ I had an old version of Camino still on here that I had forgotten about, it popped right up when I clicked the link, no worries. I wasn't saying I couldn't download it, I just smiled a little when I saw it. - Dave From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 15:39:49 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 13:39:49 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 1:08 PM, Doc wrote: > > In other words, you've bit off way more than you can chew here. > > Doc Shipley Not even close. Keep it coming. I am having a great laugh over this. You guys crack me up. I have never met a group so completely full of themselves as some people on this list. Saying VMS v5 is as secure as Debian or Gentoo is just stupid. Sorry if it hurts your feelings. Security by obscurity is not real security. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 15:41:55 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:41:55 -0400 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <60FE4B9D-2252-4FAC-8FC0-6285AF9D66CC@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2011, at 4:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you have a PS/2-interface keyboard that you really like, spend > some money on a real PS/2-to-USB *converter*, not just a connector > adapter (which most cheap ones are). > > The pckeyboard site has some suggestions. There's really no reason > that a real adapter can't be every bit as good as a native USB > keyboard. Most of the "connector adaptors" just wire the USB port up in a funny way so that the controller on the keyboard knows it's supposed to act as a PS/2 keyboard instead. Those cheap purple adaptors that come with a lot of keyboards won't work with a number of newer USB-only keyboards whose microcontrollers don't have that functionality built in. It's interesting, though; a lot of the "better" keyboards that offer both USB and PS/2 (I'm mostly thinking of Das Keyboard here) support full n-key rollover on PS/2 and up to 6-key rollover on USB. I'm not quite sure the reason for that; both PS/2 and the USB HID keyboard descriptors use key-up/key-down messages instead of just indicating the active keys. I blame crappy programmers. - Dave From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 15:45:47 2011 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:45:47 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not even arguing either side - but the more you say, the more you come off sounding like an agressive dick. On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 4:39 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/5/2011 1:08 PM, Doc wrote: >> >> ?In other words, you've bit off way more than you can chew here. >> >> ? ?Doc Shipley > > Not even close. Keep it coming. I am having a great laugh over this. You > guys crack me up. I have never met a group so completely full of themselves > as some people on this list. > > Saying VMS v5 is as secure as Debian or Gentoo is just stupid. Sorry if it > hurts your feelings. Security by obscurity is not real security. > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 5 15:51:03 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 13:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <60FE4B9D-2252-4FAC-8FC0-6285AF9D66CC@gmail.com> References: , , <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> <60FE4B9D-2252-4FAC-8FC0-6285AF9D66CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 5, 2011, at 4:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> If you have a PS/2-interface keyboard that you really like, spend >> some money on a real PS/2-to-USB *converter*, not just a connector >> adapter (which most cheap ones are). >> >> The pckeyboard site has some suggestions. There's really no reason >> that a real adapter can't be every bit as good as a native USB >> keyboard. > > Most of the "connector adaptors" just wire the USB port up in a funny > way so that the controller on the keyboard knows it's supposed to act as > a PS/2 keyboard instead. Those cheap purple adaptors that come with a > lot of keyboards won't work with a number of newer USB-only keyboards > whose microcontrollers don't have that functionality built in. > > It's interesting, though; a lot of the "better" keyboards that offer > both USB and PS/2 (I'm mostly thinking of Das Keyboard here) support > full n-key rollover on PS/2 and up to 6-key rollover on USB. I'm not > quite sure the reason for that; both PS/2 and the USB HID keyboard > descriptors use key-up/key-down messages instead of just indicating the > active keys. I blame crappy programmers. clickykeyboards.com sells ps2-to-usb converters known to be true converters and not stupid passive things. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 5 15:53:09 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 13:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: <8845D894-3CEC-4B4D-807D-50921C9D5BA5@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Nov 5, 11 04:31:28 pm" Message-ID: <201111052053.pA5Kr9qn014694@floodgap.com> > > If you have Fx 3.6 or below, Gopher still works. > > If you have Fx 4.0 or up (this also works in TenFourFox and should work > > in SeaMonkey), > > > > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/overbiteff/ > > I had an old version of Camino still on here that I had forgotten about, it > popped right up when I clicked the link, no worries. I wasn't saying I > couldn't download it, I just smiled a little when I saw it. It was more for those who hadn't gophered in awhile. I prefer to host file archives on gopher because it's easy to browse and it keeps the spiders mostly out. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Po-Ching Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 15:57:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 16:57:30 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 04:39 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> In other words, you've bit off way more than you can chew here. >> >> Doc Shipley > Not even close. Keep it coming. I am having a great laugh over this. You > guys crack me up. I have never met a group so completely full of > themselves as some people on this list. > > Saying VMS v5 is as secure as Debian or Gentoo is just stupid. Sorry if > it hurts your feelings. Security by obscurity is not real security. It's less a matter of being full of ourselves and more a matter of knowing something about the subject matter under discussion, which you pretty obviously don't. There's a lot more to computing than httpd+php on The Intarwebs, and there are a lot more VMS systems out there than you seem to think, if you think all it amounts to is obscurity. The most important thing a person can know is the limits of their own knowledge. I suggest you work on that. You probably won't, though, because you seem to think you know everything about everything. Personally, I believe that you know a great deal, but the simple fact is you don't know a damn thing about this particular topic. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:22:29 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 14:22:29 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 1:45 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm not even arguing either side - but the more you say, the more you > come off sounding like an agressive dick. > I'm the one being insulted and I come off like an aggressive dick ? Some fat ugly hick was talking about putting a bullet in my head. Have you bothered to read some of the comments directed towards me for daring to express any opinion other than that the perfectly secure OS was, in fact, developed in 1988. If only we would all switch back to VMS 5 to run the webz we would show those Chinese hackers a thing or too. Oh, and get off my lawn you bratty kids!! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 16:30:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:30:42 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5AB02.1030308@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 05:22 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> I'm not even arguing either side - but the more you say, the more you >> come off sounding like an agressive dick. >> > I'm the one being insulted and I come off like an aggressive dick ? Some > fat ugly hick was talking about putting a bullet in my head. Have you > bothered to read some of the comments directed towards me for daring to > express any opinion other than that the perfectly secure OS was, in > fact, developed in 1988. If only we would all switch back to VMS 5 to > run the webz we would show those Chinese hackers a thing or too. Oh, and > get off my lawn you bratty kids!! After all, everyone knows that security holes develop in software over time! And who was talking about running the webz? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 5 16:39:28 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: References: <201111051820.pA5IKfie010836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 5, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> A couple weeks ago people expressed interest in my salvaged MacSSH source >> and I finally got a round tuit. It's very pretty, all symmetric and frilly, >> and perfectly circular. >> >> I make no guarantees. If you get it working, I want your changes. :) However, >> I have salvaged as many of the resource forks as I can and manually massaged >> the files. I have not tried to build it. CW6 or better strongly advised. > > Great, thanks! Good job I still have a Gopher-capable browser somewhere > on this machine; I'll take a gander at this when I've got time (which > could be a while). Purists may take solace in the fact that most Linux distributions have a package for terminal-mode gopher. It's probably available for the BSDs as well. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hexsane at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:39:38 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:39:38 -0500 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: <7E9B1482-4B73-4850-9367-B5C12A61DE30@neurotica.com> References: <7E9B1482-4B73-4850-9367-B5C12A61DE30@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 2:07 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 5, 2011, at 2:59 AM, Matthew Hudson wrote: > > > In the early 2ks I had gotten my hands on several VAXen (VAX Stations, > > MicroVAXen and QBUS Rack and Pedestals). Lacking the space and having a > > money crisis I had to give up all of them. Now I want another one so I > can > > fire up NetBSD :) > > > > Anyone have a spare VAX Station or other small VAX sitting around they > want > > to part with? Or even a larger one if you're close to Omaha. ;) > > I'm sure I can scare up a spare 3100-series machine to ship out to you > once my move is complete. If you don't get one on the meantime, ping me in > a few weeks. > I have other feelers out but if all else fails I'll ping ya. Thanks. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > > > From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:42:00 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 14:42:00 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 1:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > It's less a matter of being full of ourselves and more a matter of > knowing something about the subject matter under discussion, which you > pretty obviously don't. There's a lot more to computing than > httpd+php on The Intarwebs, and there are a lot more VMS systems out > there than you seem to think, if you think all it amounts to is > obscurity. > > The most important thing a person can know is the limits of their > own knowledge. I suggest you work on that. You probably won't, > though, because you seem to think you know everything about > everything. Personally, I believe that you know a great deal, but the > simple fact is you don't know a damn thing about this particular topic. > > -Dave > So, you are saying a VMS 5 server is more secure than a Debian server ? Let me get this straight for the record. I am don't know what I am talking about because I am wrong about that ? Maybe a nice easy to understand graph pie chart will help some of the caveman here understand. The red slice of pie is not cherry. Its bad. You can't eat it. http://secunia.com/advisories/graph/?type=sol&period=all&prod=2949 http://secunia.com/advisories/product/2949/?task=advisories From hexsane at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:42:23 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:42:23 -0500 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 2:11 AM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I have a DECstation 5000/240 available for $100 + s/h (no framebuffer > card) available, if that's of any interest to you.. (untested, > retrieved from storage site with a ton of NeXT gear! ) > > MIPS based. I used to have one of these also. Its not something I want to spend time with although its not a bad machine. Maybe someone else here is interested? -Matt From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 5 15:48:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 20:48:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: from "Torfinn Ingolfsen" at Nov 4, 11 11:24:55 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I have a quantity of these which probably have the imfamous sticky > > rubber bumper. If anyone wishes to mank an offer, please contact me > > off list. > > Doesn't one need a clean room to fix that problem? It involves opening the HDA. That should eb done in a clean room, but people have reported you cna do it in a normal workshop with a bit of care. My guess is that you don't need a clean room to do it if you wnat the drive to work for long enough to get the data off it, but I'd not want to use such a repaired drive very much, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 5 15:58:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 20:58:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB In-Reply-To: <1ABB8F19-C8BA-4ED6-8396-CFDD741FE0B9@softpres.org> from "Kieron Wilkinson" at Nov 4, 11 11:04:00 pm Message-ID: > The only reason I can think of people needing the code is to tinker > which is very nice I admit, but not really a "need" surely?). Are there > other uses you are thinking of? > Nobody _needs_ a disk archiver. In fact it's quite possible to exist without any computers at all (not that I'd want to). More seriously, the reasons for wanting source code are many and varied. Among them are : To modify (call it 'tinker' if you like to make the user interface more useful for you, and a feature you've not throught of, etc To modify it to run on some hardware (or operating system) that you don;t support To understand how the thing works, either to design/write your own verion or to understand how the data on the disk was wencoded in the first place as an aid to understnadign and repairing the disk controlelr in the classic computer To ensrue the program is not doing anything malicious. OK, I don't believe that _you_ would add some malicious 'feature', but equally I'd like to be able to check To 'future-proof' it. To be sure the file formats are really going to be useful in the future, to be able to modify the software ot run on some machine that doesn't exist at the moment, and so on. It's your product, you can distribute it how you like. And at the moment I couldn't use it anyway. But I can assure you that if I ever do decide to get a comptuer that could support such a device, I would choose the DiskFerret over this one, simply due to the availability of source code. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 5 16:12:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 21:12:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Nov 4, 11 07:42:19 pm Message-ID: > > > On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > And I think (without checking the databooks) that 4000 series will stand > > a higher supply voltage thea 74HCxxx > > My recollection is that the 74HCxxxxx are nominal 5V parts (the HCT > ones specifically run with TTL switching thresholds). CD4000 series is > full range, I think usually 3.3-15v or thereabouts, with the switching > threshold usually at 0.5Vdd. I thought that 74HCT were 5V-only parts (somethign like a 5.5V maximum). 74HC was wider (up to 6 or 7V, and down to about 2V). The 4000 series are a lot wider. > 74HC was generally considerably slower than 74F for the same part > (though also took WAY less power), 74HCT slower still. I didn;t think there was taht much speed difference between 74HC and 74HCT. I will have to check the data books agian. And yse, 74F (and 74AS) is the fast one... 400 series CMOS will go up to 15 or 18V (depending on the version) I think. This led to a lot of car-related projected in UK magazines which ran 400 series CMOS chips straight off the car battery. > > > They are slow, and thus are not commonly used in classic computers. The > > odd oens do turn up, particualrly where speed is not very important but > > he function was (IIRC ,the BCD interface for my HP9815 calculator has > > some odd 4000 series shift registers in it, there is no direct TTL > > equivalent, > > And I sure love the 405x series of (basically) analog multiplexers and > 4016 analog switches. By now there are a number of better analog > multiplexers and switches out there, but there weren't any straight TTL > muxes that I remember which operate in both directions (because they > were typically combinational logic instead of pass gates). True (although IIERC some of these exist in 74HC etc). But rememebr a digital multiplexer (like the 74x151) performs a buffering function too -- the input is 1 TTL load, the output will drive at least 10 simialr loads. This is obviously not true of the analogue multiplexers, which are trasnmission gates. This can be important. And it's why you can't use 4016s, etc as bidirecitonal data bus buffers. They perform no buffering at all. -tony From hexsane at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:47:41 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:47:41 -0500 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > >> I miss my 8250. :( > > Truely big iron. I had the chance to get my hands on a 6000 but had no space for it at the time. Sadly I think it went to the scrapper. :( -Matt From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:52:13 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 14:52:13 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5AB02.1030308@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <4EB5AB02.1030308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB5B00D.7020404@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 2:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > After all, everyone knows that security holes develop in software > over time! > > And who was talking about running the webz? > > -Dave > I think this may be the source of your disagreement with me. I am not talking about VMS 8.4 running on a Alpha Rack. The statement that they took offense to was that was about VMS version 5. I have no problem with VMS. I like VMS. I have had many many VAX boxes over the years. VMS 5 is ancient by OS standards. It probably has a mess of vulnerabilities people just never bother to test against it. Its like saying Solaris 2.1 is as secure as Solaris 10 out of the box. From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 17:13:51 2011 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:13:51 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> Message-ID: calm down, take the venom out, facts are nice and good, but you don't have to come off sounding like you want to slit everyone's throats while you deliver them. On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 5:42 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/5/2011 1:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> ?It's less a matter of being full of ourselves and more a matter of >> knowing something about the subject matter under discussion, which you >> pretty obviously don't. ?There's a lot more to computing than httpd+php on >> The Intarwebs, and there are a lot more VMS systems out there than you seem >> to think, if you think all it amounts to is obscurity. >> >> ?The most important thing a person can know is the limits of their own >> knowledge. ?I suggest you work on that. ?You probably won't, though, because >> you seem to think you know everything about everything. Personally, I >> believe that you know a great deal, but the simple fact is you don't know a >> damn thing about this particular topic. >> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >> > So, you are saying a VMS 5 server is more secure than a Debian server ? Let > me get this straight for the record. I am don't know what I am talking about > because I am wrong about that ? > > Maybe a nice easy to understand graph pie chart will help some of the > caveman here understand. The red slice of pie is not cherry. Its bad. You > can't eat it. > > http://secunia.com/advisories/graph/?type=sol&period=all&prod=2949 > > http://secunia.com/advisories/product/2949/?task=advisories > > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 17:21:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:21:31 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 05:42 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> It's less a matter of being full of ourselves and more a matter of >> knowing something about the subject matter under discussion, which you >> pretty obviously don't. There's a lot more to computing than httpd+php >> on The Intarwebs, and there are a lot more VMS systems out there than >> you seem to think, if you think all it amounts to is obscurity. >> >> The most important thing a person can know is the limits of their own >> knowledge. I suggest you work on that. You probably won't, though, >> because you seem to think you know everything about everything. >> Personally, I believe that you know a great deal, but the simple fact >> is you don't know a damn thing about this particular topic. > > So, you are saying a VMS 5 server is more secure than a Debian server ? > Let me get this straight for the record. I am don't know what I am > talking about because I am wrong about that ? No. You don't know what you're talking about because, first, you took exception to a very well-known situation that keeps popping up on eBay (VS4000-96s selling at high prices) and asked for an explanation, and rejected the (correct) explanation that you were given because you thought it was unreasonable. (something that doesn't change the facts) *bzzzt* Clueless alert #1. Next, you took exception to the notion that the military runs hardware that was made before last week, and loudly asserted that the idea of the military "still" running VAXen is either untrue or a bad idea. (it's neither) *bzzzt* Clueless alert #2. After that, you suggested that *I* don't know what I'm talking about because I know that the military runs VAXen (ha, I installed some of them!) and believe that it's ok to do so. *bzzzt* Clueless alert #3. Next, you apparently assumed that my "four Ubuntu installs within the past week" meant "four total" (it was in the past six days), and that they were desktops. They weren't. This doesn't set off the clueless alert; you can't expect to know what my day-to-day activities are, so I'll let you off for free on that one. Next, you latch onto someone's mention of a VERY old release of VMS, which happens to be rock solid (if a bit slow), and assert that, oh good heavens, there are bugs in it. Surprise, there are bugs in everything! I challenge you to break into one. You won't. (but if somehow you do, I'll send you a case of your favorite beer, seriously) *bzzzt* Clueless alert #4. > Maybe a nice easy to understand graph pie chart will help some of the > caveman here understand. The red slice of pie is not cherry. Its bad. > You can't eat it. > > http://secunia.com/advisories/graph/?type=sol&period=all&prod=2949 > > http://secunia.com/advisories/product/2949/?task=advisories That's nice...Instead of quoting someone else's numbers, howabout some direct experience? I was a VMS sysadmin for years, did lots of VAX MACRO programming in the process, and *I* can't crack a properly-configured VMS machine from the network. Can you? If you can, I'll publicly concede, with no hesitation, that you have bigger balls, AND I'll send you a case of your favorite beer. Until then, shut your clueless mouth. And by the way, when did the conversation turn from VMS in general (which is a current, maintained OS) to a 20+-year-old release? How "secure" (whatever that means) would, say, Redhat 4 be? VMS may not be whiz-bang shiny and exciting to today's crop of clove-smoking vegetarian twenty-somethings who spend their day hacking together Python and Ruby on Rails scripts for web apps, but it was built from the ground up as a commercial OS with rock-solid reliability and security as a primary consideration. Like anything else, there are bugs in it. But the simple fact remains that it's damn near the hardest to break into of any of the common OSs that anyone knows about. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 17:21:56 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:21:56 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2011, at 5:42 PM, leaknoil wrote: > Maybe a nice easy to understand graph pie chart will help some of the caveman here understand. The red slice of pie is not cherry. Its bad. You can't eat it. > > http://secunia.com/advisories/graph/?type=sol&period=all&prod=2949 > > http://secunia.com/advisories/product/2949/?task=advisories OK, I became uninterested in internet pissing contests when I finished puberty, but this is low hanging fruit. Sorry. So 2 of 9 vulnerabilities are unpatched? Let's take a look at those. Number 1: There's an unpatched bug in the finger client. Great. I guess all those VMS users out there are going to have to stop fingering people they don't know (which, in a different sense, is probably a good idea). Proposed solution: "Do not run the finger client against untrusted finger servers." Let's not forget how often the finger dameons AND clients had security vulnerabilities on Linux (hint: it's more than once in my memory, which on this topic doesn't even extend to when VMS 5 was a current product). Let's also not forget that this isn't a hole in a network-exposed service, it's a client bug for a program that has to be run from the command line by a user. Number 2: The POP mail server allows you to discover usernames and doesn't use the OS' built-in intrusion detection to prevent brute force attacks. Neither of these are great, and the first one probably ought to have been patched, but neither of them are really holes so much as poor practices. It's not like they're buffer overflows. Side note: calling someone you've never met (I assume) a "fat hick" and then giving Theo deRaadt a pass on his asinine behavior isn't likely to earn you points in civilized circles. Most of us grew out of that kind of thing a decade or more ago. Come back when your acne clears up. - Dave From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 5 17:28:22 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 15:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Matthew Hudson wrote: > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >>> I miss my 8250. :( >> > Truely big iron. I had the chance to get my hands on a 6000 but had no > space for it at the time. Sadly I think it went to the scrapper. :( There's still a VAX 6000 at CSU Bakersfield and the head of the CS department isn't letting it go anytime soon. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 5 17:30:53 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:30:53 -0400 Subject: Offering to set up a repository - Re: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: <201111051820.pA5IKfie010836@floodgap.com> References: <201111051820.pA5IKfie010836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB5B91D.5070104@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/11/11 2:20 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > A couple weeks ago people expressed interest in my salvaged MacSSH source > and I finally got a round tuit. It's very pretty, all symmetric and frilly, > and perfectly circular. > > I make no guarantees. If you get it working, I want your changes. :) However, > I have salvaged as many of the resource forks as I can and manually massaged > the files. I have not tried to build it. CW6 or better strongly advised. I > threw the .sit into > > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/archive/by-request/source-code > Would anyone object if I put this into github or bitbucket? Or, rather, would anyone use the resulting repository? --Toby From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 17:35:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:35:42 -0400 Subject: grrr....an apology Message-ID: <4EB5BA3E.1070204@neurotica.com> Dammit. I've been trolled once again. I have very little tolerance for (what I perceive as) cluelessness backed up by arrogance, and something in my personal makeup just can't let misinformation stand. I try very hard to know the difference between facts and opinions, and I think I do that much better than many people, so I tend to be (and try very hard to be) pretty certain of my facts. That part isn't the problem...feeling the overwhelming urge to "correct" people is. I don't do this out of arrogance. I hate to see people laboring under bad information or false assumptions that may bite them in the future, so I try to help. I've done this stuff, and nothing else, all my life and I've been fortunate to have learned a lot from some very smart people and a whole lot of varied experience. There are people here with both a lot less and a lot more experience than I have; I like to get information from the latter and give information to the former. This backfires when people with too much time on their hands and a desire to push buttons decide they want to rile me up. I don't have time for this. I'm a busy guy, and this is a distraction that just ends up with me in a bad mood and falling behind on my work. So...Once again, I Have Been Trolled, and I apologize. I promise to try to be better about it in the future, for my own sake as well as the sake of others. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 17:38:47 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for some parts help with an old computer (or two). In-Reply-To: <44D43307-49C1-4F1D-AF2C-6A9C1F5067A8@gmail.com> References: <44D43307-49C1-4F1D-AF2C-6A9C1F5067A8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Mike Nealey wrote: > Hi, > > I am breaking out some old computers I have and need a couple parts to > get them working. The computers in question are an Alpha ES40 and an HP > ZX6000 workstation. > > Anyone out in list land happen to have any spare memory for an ES40? Any > size will do, just need at least 4 pieces to work. I want to run some > OpenVMS on this guy so any help would be great. Do you know exactly what that used for memory? Some of the DEC machines used registered ECC memory and some of the larger ones had proprietary memory. -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 17:43:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:43:54 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5B00D.7020404@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <4EB5AB02.1030308@neurotica.com> <4EB5B00D.7020404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <40BB7661-2C96-4659-B22D-0F013BB16DE8@neurotica.com> On Nov 5, 2011, at 5:52 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/5/2011 2:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> After all, everyone knows that security holes develop in software over time! >> >> And who was talking about running the webz? >> >> -Dave >> > I think this may be the source of your disagreement with me. I am not talking about VMS 8.4 running on a Alpha Rack. The statement that they took offense to was that was about VMS version 5. I have no problem with VMS. I like VMS. I have had many many VAX boxes over the years. VMS 5 is ancient by OS standards. It probably has a mess of vulnerabilities people just never bother to test against it. Its like saying Solaris 2.1 is as secure as Solaris 10 out of the box. Ok. On that we can agree. I'm sorry for the intensity of my flamage. There's a lot going on here lately and I'm in more of a "knee-jerk reaction" state of mind than usual. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Nov 5 17:52:21 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:52:21 -0400 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: <4EB49A64.6050503@brouhaha.com> References: <4EB3C197.28766.4C6A31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 11 10:42:31 am, <4EB428C0.1884.1DF62A8@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB49A64.6050503@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 7:07 pm -0700 2011/11/04, Eric Smith wrote: >RCA had a bit-slice part in one of their 1970s COSMOS databooks, with an >app note in the back, but I've never been able to find that particular >COSMOS databook again, so if it went into production at all it must not >have lasted very long. My recollection is that it was not as fancy as >the Am2901. I have a 1985 RCA databook titled "High-Reliability Integrated Circuits" that sounds very similar. The parts listed as part of the 'EPIC' chip set are - GP001 8-Bit General Processor Unit - GP501 Emulating Controller - GP502 Microprogram Sequencer [2910 clone] - GP503 8-Bit x 8-Bit Multiplier - GP511 Voltage-Level Converter and Buffer - GP301 512 x 8-Bit ROM - GP302 256 x 16-Bit ROM They list as "planned", - GP514 Double Address Select Unit - GP515 Double Register Select Unit - GP516 Bus Interface Unit - GP517 Interrupt Control and Timing Unit The related app notes, all written by one K Karstad, are - ICAN-7202 An Introduction to the Use of the General-Processor Unit, GP001 - ICAN-7211 Introducing and Applying the 8 x 8 CMOS/SOS Multiplier, GP503 - ICAN-7226 A Primer on Microprogramming and Bit-Slice Architecture Exemplified in Systems Using Members of the EPIC CMOS/SOS Family - ICAN-7241 A 16-Bit Microprogrammable Bit-Slice Computer Design Using the GP001 CPU and GP502 Controller from the EPIC Family - ICAN-7259 A Guide to the Emulating Microprogram Controller GP501 -- With Programming Examples - ICAN-7281 The GP501 - A Flexible and Powerful Microprogram Controller for Emulation in the Control Section of High-Performance Microcomputers - ICAN-7283 A Comparison of EPIC CMOS/SOS Microprogram Controllers GP501 and GP502 -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 17:53:10 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:53:10 -0400 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2011, at 5:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> And I sure love the 405x series of (basically) analog multiplexers and >> 4016 analog switches. By now there are a number of better analog >> multiplexers and switches out there, but there weren't any straight TTL >> muxes that I remember which operate in both directions (because they >> were typically combinational logic instead of pass gates). > > True (although IIERC some of these exist in 74HC etc). > > But rememebr a digital multiplexer (like the 74x151) performs a buffering > function too -- the input is 1 TTL load, the output will drive at least > 10 simialr loads. This is obviously not true of the analogue > multiplexers, which are trasnmission gates. This can be important. > > And it's why you can't use 4016s, etc as bidirecitonal data bus buffers. > They perform no buffering at all. Well, yes. I like that they're just switches. Buffers have their place, of course, but sometimes it's nice to have a little DIP IC that'll switch off your headphone port without clicking too much. They're fundamentally different devices. I actually found the 4052 great for muxing a UART channel 4 ways because you didn't have to use 2 chips; the Rx and Tx were treated equally because they were just transmission gates. It would only ever be good if you were on the same PCB (or at least not going too far), but that was what I was doing, so it was great. They're also not particularly fast, but at least for what I was using them for, they didn't need to be. As with anything, it's a matter of understanding the limitations. :-) - Dave From drb at msu.edu Sat Nov 5 17:54:54 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:54:54 -0400 Subject: NEC FD1157C jumper doco Message-ID: <20111105225454.25D55A6008@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Anyone have jumper setting documentation for an NEC FD1157C? The internet does not deign to provide. Thanks, De From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 17:56:22 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:56:22 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6! EB.90400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <63EC110B-8F33-4670-B434-4A78061EAF38@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Next, you took exception to the notion that the military runs hardware that was made before last week, and loudly asserted that the idea of the military "still" running VAXen is either untrue or a bad idea. (it's neither) At least our military runs mostly solid-state now. In the mid-90s, one of the best audio tube manufacturers (Ei in Yugoslavia) was nearly wiped out because it provided most of the Serbian military's tubes for their communications equipment. The U.S. bombed the factory. It was a sad time for the analog audio world; Ei makes tubes again, but nowhere near at the capacity they used to. - Dave From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 17:59:03 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:59:03 -0400 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> <60FE4B9D-2252-4FAC-8FC0-6285AF9D66CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I use this "gaming" keyboard to program with at work: http://www.i-rocks.com/Product_detail.aspx?CLASS_ID=1056&PRODUCT_ID=1201 Cherry MX action, good weight and key spacing for my gorilla hands. I'm partial to the compact model, though they also make a full-size with the same mechanism. USB with two USB connectors on the back which is handy for thumb drives. From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 18:18:10 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 16:18:10 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 3:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > No. You don't know what you're talking about because, first, you > took exception to a very well-known situation that keeps popping up on > eBay (VS4000-96s selling at high prices) and asked for an explanation, > and rejected the (correct) explanation that you were given because you > thought it was unreasonable. (something that doesn't change the facts) > > *bzzzt* Clueless alert #1. *bzzt* Asshole alert # 1 You have this wrong. I said I wondered what it was they were running and using them for and argued maybe it was time to port it. I know there are pdp 11 still running things. > > Next, you took exception to the notion that the military runs > hardware that was made before last week, and loudly asserted that the > idea of the military "still" running VAXen is either untrue or a bad > idea. (it's neither) > > *bzzzt* Clueless alert #2. I said I hated to think they were still using VAXStation 4000 to run critical defense things. When did I ever doubt they weren't ? Did you even read anything or just decide what it said before hand. > > After that, you suggested that *I* don't know what I'm talking about > because I know that the military runs VAXen (ha, I installed some of > them!) and believe that it's ok to do so. > > *bzzzt* Clueless alert #3. And I said that where ? > > Next, you apparently assumed that my "four Ubuntu installs within > the past week" meant "four total" (it was in the past six days), and > that they were desktops. They weren't. This doesn't set off the > clueless alert; you can't expect to know what my day-to-day activities > are, so I'll let you off for free on that one. and you don't know mine. Anyone that proclaims Ubuntu installs in anyway as something I sould be impressed by just loses points. It was was just the ridiculous to even mention it. My mother could have installed ubuntu reasonably well as it is now. I don't actually really even care what your experience is. It is really besides the point. I just found the Ubuntu thing funny. I feel I can safely say a VMS 5 server would be a serious risk on any exposed network. > > Next, you latch onto someone's mention of a VERY old release of VMS, > which happens to be rock solid (if a bit slow), and assert that, oh > good heavens, there are bugs in it. Surprise, there are bugs in > everything! I challenge you to break into one. You won't. (but if > somehow you do, I'll send you a case of your favorite beer, seriously) > > *bzzzt* Clueless alert #4. > That was actually the whole point. My comment was about the guy saying 5 was secure not VMS in general. Lets do this. Lets load a VAXStation up with 5 and patch it with what security patches were made for it. Set it ouside a firewall accessible to the internet. One login account with no high level privileges and we'll place it outside a firewall. You will put on it a text file containing every credit card numbers your family has (along with CIVs), all of their social security numbers, their personal info, all your bank account numbers, and then we will post the login info to a couple of hacker boards. How about that ? I can probably dig up a 3100 for this purpose. Lets see what happens. Why do I have to personally hack something to declare it a security risk ? It's obviously a security risk to put, a VMS 5 box on the internet with sensitive data on it. I don't get paid to hack systems but, I certainly have to secure them. > > VMS may not be whiz-bang shiny and exciting to today's crop of > clove-smoking vegetarian twenty-somethings who spend their day hacking > together Python and Ruby on Rails scripts for web apps, but it was > built from the ground up as a commercial OS with rock-solid > reliability and security as a primary consideration. Like anything > else, there are bugs in it. But the simple fact remains that it's > damn near the hardest to break into of any of the common OSs that > anyone knows about. > > -Dave > Man I'm like almost 50 years old and been working on computers forever. I only wish I was clove-smoking twenty-something. You keep bad mouthing people that hack web stuff but, that's what the internet is now. When's the last time you gave someone a shell account ? From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 5 18:19:01 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 19:19:01 -0400 Subject: various S-100 PCBs for home brew projects In-Reply-To: <1320521815.20777.YahooMailClassic@web180206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1320521815.20777.YahooMailClassic@web180206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EB5C465.6030500@verizon.net> On 11/05/2011 03:36 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > ben bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Does one have to go with ebay? Can I just send you the $$$? > Yes that would be fine. You don't need to use eBay but for some reason many builders seem to prefer it even though it is more expensive. I don't understand why but I guess that's their choice. It is one of life's many mysteries. > > Thanks! > > Andrew Lynch > Easy, many of us distrust ebay and especially paypal. If I do business direct I know whom I'm dealing with and who to hunt down should things go sideways. That and I enrich them and not some big business. Allison From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 18:28:57 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 16:28:57 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 3:21 PM, David Riley wrote: > So 2 of 9 vulnerabilities are unpatched? Let's take a look at those. These are just the ones reported. Not like people are banging on VMS 5 boxes or even 7 boxes anymore. > > Side note: calling someone you've never met (I assume) a "fat hick" and then giving Theo deRaadt a pass on his asinine behavior isn't likely to earn you points in civilized circles. Most of us grew out of that kind of thing a decade or more ago. Come back when your acne clears up. > > I made the mistake of clicking on his webpage after he made some remarks about me. Check for yourself. Theo was a nice guy when I knew him. I have no complaints. I didn't work on openbsd or netbsd though. I do find it funny that people vilify him for arrogance while they tend to applaud Linus. I only followed the whole openbsd problems from afar and stopped completely pretty quickly. I think the whole problem was, much like this list, there are plenty of big egos to go around. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 5 18:30:31 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Offering to set up a repository - Re: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: <4EB5B91D.5070104@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Nov 5, 11 06:30:53 pm" Message-ID: <201111052330.pA5NUVdH014250@floodgap.com> > Would anyone object if I put this into github or bitbucket? Or, rather, > would anyone use the resulting repository? I shudder to think what github would do with the resource forks unless you singled all of it (which would then make it rather inconvenient to manage). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Praise the sea; on shore remain. -- John Florio ---------------------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 18:32:51 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:32:51 -0400 Subject: Offering to set up a repository - Re: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: <4EB5B91D.5070104@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201111051820.pA5IKfie010836@floodgap.com> <4EB5B91D.5070104@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <6F57E3C7-44B4-4A1C-9317-8FF8574D7428@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2011, at 6:30 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Would anyone object if I put this into github or bitbucket? Or, rather, would anyone use the resulting repository? I'd use it. I was considering doing the same myself, but if you're offering, go for it. How do Git and Mercurial deal with resource forks? Also, are there clients for same on "classic" Mac OS? I could go as late as the last version of OS 9, but I'd prefer something that ran on 7.5.3 if possible. I suppose I could do my own research on that last question, too. - Dave From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 18:33:43 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 16:33:43 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <40BB7661-2C96-4659-B22D-0F013BB16DE8@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <4EB5AB02.1030308@neurotica.com> <4EB5B00D.7020404@gmail.com> <40BB7661-2C96-4659-B22D-0F013BB16DE8@neurotic! a.com> Message-ID: <4EB5C7D7.1050403@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 3:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ok. On that we can agree. I'm sorry for the intensity of my flamage. > There's a lot going on here lately and I'm in more of a "knee-jerk > reaction" state of mind than usual. -Dave I don't think I have ever disagreed with you actually. My issue was always with the version 5 is secure crowd. It was never a VMS vs UNIX thing but, a 1988 OS vs a 2011 OS. It doesn't matter and I apologize if I offended you. I only meant to offend people that think VMS 5 is as secure as say Solaris 10 or Debian. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 19:13:54 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 20:13:54 -0400 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> <60FE4B9D-2252-4FAC-8FC0-6285AF9D66CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <70A2A886-B8E7-4441-9134-F8C79ECE98E3@gmail.com> On Nov 5, 2011, at 6:59 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > I use this "gaming" keyboard to program with at work: > > http://www.i-rocks.com/Product_detail.aspx?CLASS_ID=1056&PRODUCT_ID=1201 > > Cherry MX action, good weight and key spacing for my gorilla hands. I'm > partial to the compact model, though they also make a full-size with the > same mechanism. USB with two USB connectors on the back which is handy for > thumb drives. My Chinese isn't so good. What's the error message say when I try to order? Otherwise, that's about the kind of keyboard I'd be looking for. Das Keyboard looks nice, but expensive (probably worth the investment, though). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 19:28:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:28:08 -0700 Subject: NEC FD1157C jumper doco In-Reply-To: <20111105225454.25D55A6008@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20111105225454.25D55A6008@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4EB57228.22959.1D2AC81@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2011 at 18:54, Dennis Boone wrote: > Anyone have jumper setting documentation for an NEC FD1157C? > The internet does not deign to provide. Found this, maybe it'll help: http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d94-tan/pckort/necflopp.txt Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 19:36:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:36:33 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 07:28 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/5/2011 3:21 PM, David Riley wrote: >> So 2 of 9 vulnerabilities are unpatched? Let's take a look at those. > > These are just the ones reported. Not like people are banging on VMS 5 > boxes or even 7 boxes anymore. Oh, it's old so it MUST be full of holes. I get it. That makes perfect sense now. And of course nobody is running any VMS 5 or 7 machines anymore. Anywhere. Wow. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 19:37:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:37:04 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 07:18 PM, leaknoil wrote: > I said I hated to think they were still using VAXStation 4000 to run > critical defense things. When did I ever doubt they weren't ? Did you > even read anything or just decide what it said before hand. Oh ok, I must've misinterpreted something you said. My apologies. I retract that part. > and you don't know mine. Anyone that proclaims Ubuntu installs in anyway > as something I sould be impressed by just loses points. It was was just > the ridiculous to even mention it. My mother could have installed ubuntu > reasonably well as it is now. I don't actually really even care what > your experience is. It is really besides the point. I just found the > Ubuntu thing funny. I didn't mention the big Solaris machine because I was pretty sure you wouldn't know what it was. > I feel I can safely say a VMS 5 server would be a > serious risk on any exposed network. That's nice. In my professional opinion, I wouldn't be too sure at all, not without some pretty serious evaluation. I say this because I've tried to crack many a VMS system (white hat) and rarely have I gotten very far. (username FIELD with password SERVICE notwithstanding) > That was actually the whole point. My comment was about the guy saying 5 > was secure not VMS in general. And on that part we can agree, as per my previous email. > Why do I have to personally hack something to declare it a security risk > ? It's obviously a security risk to put, a VMS 5 box on the internet > with sensitive data on it. I don't get paid to hack systems but, I > certainly have to secure them. WHY is that so? WHY is it so obvious? And WHY is it automatically bad to run hardware in a certain application once it passes a certain age? You keep making these assertions but you never back them up with anything substantial. People keep presenting information contradicting you (poking holes in your "holes", explaining why it's dangerous and expensive to upgrade for the sake of upgrading) and yet you still make these assertions, as if you don't even hear what others are saying. > Man I'm like almost 50 years old and been working on computers forever. > I only wish I was clove-smoking twenty-something. You keep bad mouthing > people that hack web stuff but, that's what the internet is now. When's > the last time you gave someone a shell account ? That's what some of the consumer-oriented public Internet is, yes. But it's foolish (not to mention wrong) to assert that that's ALL it is. That may be all you do with it, but that's not so for many of the rest of us. Have you actually WORKED on this network? (same troll, same flame!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 19:39:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:39:07 -0700 Subject: NEC FD1157C jumper doco In-Reply-To: <20111105225454.25D55A6008@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20111105225454.25D55A6008@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4EB574BB.2485.1DCBAD8@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2011 at 18:54, Dennis Boone wrote: > Anyone have jumper setting documentation for an NEC FD1157C? > The internet does not deign to provide. Also, a bit more: http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~kzs/hdd.dat/hdd2.html Cheers, Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 5 19:46:31 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:46:31 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5D8E7.5010901@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/11/11 7:28 PM, leaknoil wrote: > ... people vilify [Theo] > for arrogance while they tend to applaud Linus. Linus strikes me as more *outspoken* than "arrogant". I'm not entering the "is Theo the antichrist" debate, except to add to the pile of anecdotes - that I've had a beer and an afternoon's pleasant conversation with him, and I didn't see any horns growing from his head. --T > I only followed the > whole openbsd problems from afar and stopped completely pretty quickly. > I think the whole problem was, much like this list, there are plenty of > big egos to go around. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 5 19:49:39 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:49:39 -0400 Subject: Offering to set up a repository - Re: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: <201111052330.pA5NUVdH014250@floodgap.com> References: <201111052330.pA5NUVdH014250@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EB5D9A3.1040000@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/11/11 7:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Would anyone object if I put this into github or bitbucket? Or, rather, >> would anyone use the resulting repository? > > I shudder to think what github would do with the resource forks unless you > singled all of it (which would then make it rather inconvenient to manage). > I'd do what I've done for my own classic MacOS code: DeRez it, version as .r, and reconstitute in a build. That can be easily done by both MPW and CW, of course. For maintainable resources, I'd want to use the Rez templates. --Toby From drb at msu.edu Sat Nov 5 20:02:52 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:02:52 -0400 Subject: NEC FD1157C jumper doco In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:28:08 PDT.) <4EB57228.22959.1D2AC81@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB57228.22959.1D2AC81@cclist.sydex.com> <20111105225454.25D55A6008@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20111106010252.2492BA675D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Found this, maybe it'll help: > http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d94-tan/pckort/necflopp.txt Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me what all the different settings mean. Thanks for looking though. De From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 5 20:05:20 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 18:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Offering to set up a repository - Re: MacSSH source In-Reply-To: <6F57E3C7-44B4-4A1C-9317-8FF8574D7428@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Nov 5, 11 07:32:51 pm" Message-ID: <201111060105.pA615Kev012412@floodgap.com> > How do Git and Mercurial deal with resource forks? As far as I know, they don't. Someone (Josh Juran?) was looking at making a custom git client for OS 9 running under MacRelix, which is his command-line shell system, but I don't think it's in any runnable order. There was a MacCVS that would automatically handle the fork issue, but I've never used it personally. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- de Gaultier --- From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:14:52 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:14:52 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 5:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Oh, it's old so it MUST be full of holes. I get it. That makes > perfect sense now. > > And of course nobody is running any VMS 5 or 7 machines anymore. > Anywhere. > > Wow. > > -Dave > Put words in my mouth why don't you but, well it is kind of true. I just never said that. OK point me to a 5 box that is accessible to the net. Are there even any 7 ones ? I have a Sun 2/210 here. I'm not going to put it outside my firewall. I'm not stupid. The question was not ever if they exist in some forgotten office in the pentagon but, are they secure ? From drb at msu.edu Sat Nov 5 20:28:29 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:28:29 -0400 Subject: NEC FD1157C jumper doco In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:39:07 PDT.) <4EB574BB.2485.1DCBAD8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB574BB.2485.1DCBAD8@cclist.sydex.com> <20111105225454.25D55A6008@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20111106012829.26A52A6786@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~kzs/hdd.dat/hdd2.html Perhaps I should have included this (tinyurl because the actual url is a really horrid google groups url): http://preview.tinyurl.com/3nylv79 It at least vaguely describes the function of each jumper group, but not what the different settings of any given one mean. De From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:34:11 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:34:11 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB5E413.1030501@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 5:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/05/2011 07:18 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> I said I hated to think they were still using VAXStation 4000 to run >> critical defense things. When did I ever doubt they weren't ? Did you >> even read anything or just decide what it said before hand. > > Oh ok, I must've misinterpreted something you said. My apologies. > I retract that part. > >> > > I didn't mention the big Solaris machine because I was pretty sure > you wouldn't know what it was. > And you would be very wrong. Sun is actually what I do and have done since about the time VMS 5 might have been considered secure. >> I feel I can safely say a VMS 5 server would be a >> serious risk on any exposed network. > > That's nice. In my professional opinion, I wouldn't be too sure at > all, not without some pretty serious evaluation. I say this because > I've tried to crack many a VMS system (white hat) and rarely have I > gotten very far. (username FIELD with password SERVICE notwithstanding) > I don't know you at all or you me but, unlike you I will say you know something about this subject and would not actually stick a vms 5 box out for attack. In this argument we are having you say you would but, I don't actually believe you would. >> That was actually the whole point. My comment was about the guy saying 5 >> was secure not VMS in general. > > And on that part we can agree, as per my previous email. > >> Why do I have to personally hack something to declare it a security risk >> ? It's obviously a security risk to put, a VMS 5 box on the internet >> with sensitive data on it. I don't get paid to hack systems but, I >> certainly have to secure them. > > WHY is that so? WHY is it so obvious? And WHY is it automatically > bad to run hardware in a certain application once it passes a certain > age? You keep making these assertions but you never back them up with > anything substantial. People keep presenting information > contradicting you (poking holes in your "holes", explaining why it's > dangerous and expensive to upgrade for the sake of upgrading) and yet > you still make these assertions, as if you don't even hear what others > are saying. > Because they stop releasing patches for it. That is all. We are talking twenty years here. I, personally, believe that having your OS attacked is good. It makes it stronger. It gets patches released. When it is sitting in some obscure place off the internet fine. It will probably not be hacked. You might also ask Iran's IT people how they feel about the whole security through obscurity thing or how their centrifuges are doing now. People are holding keys into all these older and closed systems. They just need a reason to use them. Telling someone to hack your vs3100 for shits and giggles isn't. If I had a zero day exploit on 5 I wouldn't waste it here. That is for sure. > > That's what some of the consumer-oriented public Internet is, yes. > But it's foolish (not to mention wrong) to assert that that's ALL it > is. That may be all you do with it, but that's not so for many of the > rest of us. Have you actually WORKED on this network? > > (same troll, same flame!) > > -Dave > I'm not really. I just stand up for what I believe. Let me just say this though. The "consumer-oriented public Internet" is what the internet is now. Netflix alone was something like 30% of all internet traffic last month. From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:42:15 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:42:15 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5D8E7.5010901@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D8E7.5010901@telegraphics.com.! au> Message-ID: <4EB5E5F7.8040102@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 5:46 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 05/11/11 7:28 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> ... people vilify [Theo] >> for arrogance while they tend to applaud Linus. > > Linus strikes me as more *outspoken* than "arrogant". > > I'm not entering the "is Theo the antichrist" debate, except to add to > the pile of anecdotes - that I've had a beer and an afternoon's > pleasant conversation with him, and I didn't see any horns growing > from his head. > > --T I don't actually have a problem with either man. It's their OS they can do what they want. I think they are both probably slightly arrogant but, maybe that is what it takes to make an OS. Lets not get started on Jobs or Gates. It's opensource. Everyone is free to fork it off if they don't like what's happening. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 5 21:24:23 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 19:24:23 -0700 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB49713.4070509@brouhaha.com> <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do there exist any split supply (3.3V/5V) level converter chips in > DIP? I don't think so. That's why I use 74LVC parts for the 5V to 3.3V direction, and 74HCT for the 3.3V to 5V direction, if 5V CMOS levels are actually needed. Usually they aren't. A bidirectional bus where actual 5V CMOS levels are needed on the 5V side is the annoying case; then I end up using two separate buffers, one in each direction. > When you're building a circuit where anybody or their cousin > can tie something to your interface, you'd like the chip most likely > to get fried by a careless user to be in an easily replaceable form. Yes. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 21:49:09 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:49:09 -0500 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you have a PS/2-interface keyboard that you really like, spend > some money on a real PS/2-to-USB *converter*, not just a connector > adapter (which most cheap ones are). I've got a converter which I use to connect my Model M - oddly enough I've seen the same sort of behavior that Mark hints at, in that very occasionally the system will seem to think that a key has been held down, and will cough out repeat keypresses. I've never been able to tell if it's the converter, the keyboard, the PC-side USB hardware, or something within Linux's USB layer. If it is the converter, maybe it's specific only to a certain model (or models). The M is such a delight to type on that it's only a minor inconvenience to me, though! cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 21:50:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 22:50:49 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5F609.80508@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 09:14 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> Oh, it's old so it MUST be full of holes. I get it. That makes perfect >> sense now. >> >> And of course nobody is running any VMS 5 or 7 machines anymore. >> Anywhere. >> >> Wow. >> > Put words in my mouth why don't you but, well it is kind of true. I just > never said that. > > OK point me to a 5 box that is accessible to the net. Are there even any > 7 ones ? I have a Sun 2/210 here. I'm not going to put it outside my > firewall. I'm not stupid. The question was not ever if they exist in > some forgotten office in the pentagon but, are they secure ? Ok, whatever you say! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 21:50:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 22:50:59 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5E413.1030501@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> <4EB5E413.1030501@gma il.com> Message-ID: <4EB5F613.1020206@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 09:34 PM, leaknoil wrote: > I'm not really. I just stand up for what I believe. Let me just say this > though. The "consumer-oriented public Internet" is what the internet is > now. Netflix alone was something like 30% of all internet traffic last > month. That's because it's friggin' VIDEO, man! You can get a hundred thousand SSH sessions for the bandwidth that one movie consumes. Surely you can't be this stupid. My GOD why am I entertaining this? You are a fucking TROLL, and you like pushing my (very pushable!) buttons. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 21:53:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 19:53:47 -0700 Subject: NEC FD1157C jumper doco In-Reply-To: <20111106012829.26A52A6786@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4EB574BB.2485.1DCBAD8@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111106012829.26A52A6786@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4EB5944B.5299.2580827@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2011 at 21:28, Dennis Boone wrote: > > http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~kzs/hdd.dat/hdd2.html > > Perhaps I should have included this (tinyurl because the actual url is > a really horrid google groups url): > > http://preview.tinyurl.com/3nylv79 > > It at least vaguely describes the function of each jumper group, but > not what the different settings of any given one mean. Well, that tinyurl throws my browser into executing a catch-throw script loop and I never do get to what it's pointing at. If you know someone with a good collection of PC98 (NEC 9801 platform) documents, perhaps there's hope there, as these drives were used on some models of the 9801. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 21:56:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 22:56:43 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5C7D7.1050403@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <4EB5AB02.1030308@neurotica.com> <4EB5B00D.7020404@gmail.com> <40BB7661-2C96-4659-B22D-0F013BB16DE8@neurotic! a.com> <4EB5C7D7.1050403@gma il.com> Message-ID: <4EB5F76B.3090103@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 07:33 PM, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/5/2011 3:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Ok. On that we can agree. I'm sorry for the intensity of my flamage. >> There's a lot going on here lately and I'm in more of a "knee-jerk >> reaction" state of mind than usual. -Dave > > I don't think I have ever disagreed with you actually. My issue was > always with the version 5 is secure crowd. It was never a VMS vs UNIX > thing but, a 1988 OS vs a 2011 OS. > > It doesn't matter and I apologize if I offended you. I only meant to > offend people that think VMS 5 is as secure as say Solaris 10 or Debian. Grrrrr, ok. We definitely agree on that point, though I would honestly say VMS 5 would actually give them a run for their money. But apart from the specifics of that argument, much of the other stuff you're spouting off about is wildly, incredibly incorrect. And they're not really matters of opinion. You're going to stick to it, and that's fine. It's your professional reputation on the line, not mine. Personally I think it's better to have correct information than to see the world for how we want it to be and insist that that's the way it is. You are wearing blinders. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 22:07:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:07:18 -0700 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> References: , <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB59776.9797.264661B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2011 at 21:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've got a converter which I use to connect my Model M - oddly enough > I've seen the same sort of behavior that Mark hints at, in that very > occasionally the system will seem to think that a key has been held > down, and will cough out repeat keypresses. You may want to peek inside to see if there are any active devices in your converter. Most are purely passive--and there's the rub. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 22:12:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:12:09 -0700 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2011 at 19:24, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Do there exist any split supply (3.3V/5V) level converter chips in > > DIP? > > I don't think so. That's why I use 74LVC parts for the 5V to 3.3V > direction, and 74HCT for the 3.3V to 5V direction, if 5V CMOS levels > are actually needed. Usually they aren't. If it's a 3.3v microcontroller on the other side, it's a good reason for selecting one with 5V tolerant inputs, I guess. At least you can use plain old HCT in both directions. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 5 22:18:05 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 23:18:05 -0400 Subject: Let's talk Sun 2 - Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5F609.80508@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> <4EB5F609.80508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/11/11 10:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/05/2011 09:14 PM, leaknoil wrote: >>> Oh, it's old so it MUST be full of holes. I get it. That makes perfect >>> sense now. >>> >>> And of course nobody is running any VMS 5 or 7 machines anymore. >>> Anywhere. >>> >>> Wow. >>> >> Put words in my mouth why don't you but, well it is kind of true. I just >> never said that. >> >> OK point me to a 5 box that is accessible to the net. Are there even any >> 7 ones ? I have a Sun 2/210 here. I'm not going to put it outside my Wait wait wait a Sun 2? *sigh* OK you win. I've only SEEN one, but I heard of a bunch of a dozen or so being scrapped around 10 years ago. --T >> firewall. I'm not stupid. The question was not ever if they exist in >> some forgotten office in the pentagon but, are they secure ? > > Ok, whatever you say! > > -Dave > From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 22:20:00 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:20:00 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5F613.1020206@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> <4EB5E413.1030501@gma il.com> <4EB5F613.1020206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB5FCE0.1010707@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 7:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/05/2011 09:34 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> I'm not really. I just stand up for what I believe. Let me just say this >> though. The "consumer-oriented public Internet" is what the internet is >> now. Netflix alone was something like 30% of all internet traffic last >> month. > > That's because it's friggin' VIDEO, man! You can get a hundred > thousand SSH sessions for the bandwidth that one movie consumes. > Surely you can't be this stupid. > > My GOD why am I entertaining this? You are a fucking TROLL, and you > like pushing my (very pushable!) buttons. > > -Dave > I am not trying to push your buttons I just don't get you. The internet is what it is now. I use ssh all the time but, by all the time I mean a couple times a week. Maybe occasionally I tunnel a remote connection on top of that. Why even bring it up. I am not sure if you even combined worldwide ssh usage on a single day it would even show up as a blip on a traffic graph. Even if you compared numbers of connections to each other and not bandwidth. This I obviously can't back up. I just suspect it's true. *opinion alert* for those needing a disclaimer. From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 22:24:33 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:24:33 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5F76B.3090103@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <4EB5AB02.1030308@neurotica.com> <4EB5B00D.7020404@gmail.com> <40BB7661-2C96-4659-B22D-0F013BB16DE8@neurotic! a.com> <4EB5C7D7.1050403@gma il.com> <4EB5F76B.3090103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB5FDF1.5050701@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 7:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Grrrrr, ok. We definitely agree on that point, though I would > honestly say VMS 5 would actually give them a run for their money. > But apart from the specifics of that argument, much of the other stuff > you're spouting off about is wildly, incredibly incorrect. And > they're not really matters of opinion. > > You're going to stick to it, and that's fine. It's your > professional reputation on the line, not mine. Personally I think > it's better to have correct information than to see the world for how > we want it to be and insist that that's the way it is. You are > wearing blinders. > > -Dave > I would rather be extra paranoid and say, "Please don't stick that vms 5 box on the corporate network or I will fire your ass" Nothing to do with the merits of VMS vs anything else. I would say the same if they wanted to run their SS 20 running SunOS 4.1.4 too. People here get all defensive and ask me to hack their system to prove it's insecure. That's not really how it works in the real world. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 5 22:42:43 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:42:43 -0700 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB60233.1050803@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If it's a 3.3v microcontroller on the other side, it's a good reason > for selecting one with 5V tolerant inputs, I guess. Sadly those seem to be going away. A lot of the new stuff is not 5V tolerant. Some of the Xilinx FPGAs (e.g., Virtex-6) aren't even 3.3V tolerant! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 22:45:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 23:45:22 -0400 Subject: Let's talk Sun 2 - Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> <4EB5F609.80508@neurotica.com> <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB602D2.8020801@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 11:18 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> OK point me to a 5 box that is accessible to the net. Are there even any >>> 7 ones ? I have a Sun 2/210 here. I'm not going to put it outside my > > Wait wait wait a Sun 2? (Note how he said "accessible to the net"...I never claimed that! But I do know where there are three VMS 5 machines in daily use, at a former place of employment. They're in a SCIF. One of them is a MicroVAX-II.) > *sigh* OK you win. I've only SEEN one, but I heard of a bunch of a dozen > or so being scrapped around 10 years ago. That sucks. I've got a small pile of Sun2 Multibus boards left, but no machines. A looong time ago my home fileserver was a Sun2/170 with two NEC D2532H 520MB SMD drives on it. It was awesome. I ran a 2/120 briefly but quickly upgraded it to a 3/50. Years later I sold the 2/170 chassis (just the chassis, there was no "classic" or "collector" value then) to a friend who had a board set for a Cisco AGS router, also Multibus. He built a Franken-AGS in the 2/170's backplane. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Nov 5 22:47:16 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 20:47:16 -0700 Subject: Let's talk Sun 2 - Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> <4EB5F609.80508@neurotica.com> <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EB60344.1030606@mail.msu.edu> On 11/5/2011 8:18 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 05/11/11 10:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 11/05/2011 09:14 PM, leaknoil wrote: >>> Put words in my mouth why don't you but, well it is kind of true. I >>> just >>> never said that. >>> >>> OK point me to a 5 box that is accessible to the net. Are there even >>> any >>> 7 ones ? I have a Sun 2/210 here. I'm not going to put it outside my > > Wait wait wait a Sun 2? > > *sigh* OK you win. I've only SEEN one, but I heard of a bunch of a > dozen or so being scrapped around 10 years ago. > > --T > I have enough boards to build two complete 2/120 systems (thanks again, Dave), but no chassis to put them in. I'm somehow doubting I'll ever find one, but hey -- if anyone out there has one going spare feel free to drop me a line :). - Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 5 22:49:13 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:49:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111060349.XAA08268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm the one being insulted and I come off like an aggressive dick ? Yes, you come off as an aggressive dick. At least to me. Regardless of what others are saying about you. What others say reflects on them; it's what you say that reflects on you. [quoting from a different message] >> (same troll, same flame!) > I'm not really. I just stand up for what I believe. Perhaps. But you do so in a remarkably arrogant and offensive way - at least to my perception, and I appear to be far from alone in that. For all I know you may not be deliberately trolling, but from an external perspective I'm sure having trouble seeing any difference. That's why I'm treating you like a troll - including not engaging you even on the actual points I find in your writing - and will continue to do so until I see you acting otherwise. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 22:49:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 23:49:28 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5FCE0.1010707@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> <4EB5E413.1030501@gma il.com> <4EB5F613.1020206@neurotica.com> <4EB5FCE0.1010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB603C8.4040203@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 11:20 PM, leaknoil wrote: >>> I'm not really. I just stand up for what I believe. Let me just say this >>> though. The "consumer-oriented public Internet" is what the internet is >>> now. Netflix alone was something like 30% of all internet traffic last >>> month. >> >> That's because it's friggin' VIDEO, man! You can get a hundred >> thousand SSH sessions for the bandwidth that one movie consumes. >> Surely you can't be this stupid. >> >> My GOD why am I entertaining this? You are a fucking TROLL, and you >> like pushing my (very pushable!) buttons. >> > I am not trying to push your buttons I just don't get you. The internet > is what it is now. I use ssh all the time but, by all the time I mean a > couple times a week. Me too, but by "all the time" I mean a few times per hour. > Maybe occasionally I tunnel a remote connection on > top of that. Why even bring it up. I am not sure if you even combined > worldwide ssh usage on a single day it would even show up as a blip on a > traffic graph. Even if you compared numbers of connections to each other > and not bandwidth. This I obviously can't back up. I just suspect it's > true. *opinion alert* for those needing a disclaimer. So you're saying that what the Internet "is" is defined by what eats the most bandwidth? So what happens if I get thirty of my closest friends with serious bandwidth access to start moving data on port 70, does that mean Gopher is now what the Internet is all about? Do you see why I'm saying your reasoning is flawed? At this point, note well that I don't believe for a second that you actually THINK this way. I'm quite certain you're just pushing my buttons, probably because you know I'm hip-deep in op-amps at the moment (oh, but we probably don't really use THOSE anymore either!) with a demo mere days away. *grumble* -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 23:02:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 00:02:53 -0400 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5FDF1.5050701@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <4EB5AB02.1030308@neurotica.com> <4EB5B00D.7020404@gmail.com> <40BB7661-2C96-4659-B22D-0F013BB16DE8@neurotic! a.com> <4EB5C7D7.1050403@gma il.com> <4EB5F76B.3090103@neurotica.com> <4EB5FDF1.5050701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB606ED.8050604@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 11:24 PM, leaknoil wrote: > I would rather be extra paranoid and say, "Please don't stick that vms 5 > box on the corporate network or I will fire your ass" Nothing to do with > the merits of VMS vs anything else. I would say the same if they wanted > to run their SS 20 running SunOS 4.1.4 too. People here get all > defensive and ask me to hack their system to prove it's insecure. That's > not really how it works in the real world. For what it's worth, I *wouldn't* put it online to the outside world. Nor would I do it with SunOS 4.1.4, even though I know where most of its warts are. I just don't think one should automatically assume that it's going to be full of holes because it's old. That's true of most UNIX implementations, but generally not so of VMS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 5 23:03:14 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 00:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Let's talk Sun 2 - Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> <4EB5F609.80508@neurotica.com> <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201111060403.AAA09135@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Wait wait wait a Sun 2? Oh, that brings back memories. When the lab I was then at first bought Suns, the earliest were the VME-cage Sun-2s. I still remember the keyboards that came with them, mushy horrible things I consider them. I don't have any. I think they all got board-swap upgraded to Sun-3s before they got rolled out to pasture and then potentially into my hands, so I have to content myself with Sun-3s. *snif* /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 5 23:16:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 00:16:09 -0400 Subject: Let's talk Sun 2 - Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB60344.1030606@mail.msu.edu> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> <4EB5F609.80508@neurotica.com> <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB60344.1030606@mail.msu.e du> Message-ID: <4EB60A09.4010709@neurotica.com> On 11/05/2011 11:47 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have enough boards to build two complete 2/120 systems (thanks again, > Dave), but no chassis to put them in. I'm somehow doubting I'll ever > find one, but hey -- if anyone out there has one going spare feel free > to drop me a line :). I'm glad those boards went to a good home. They were my file server from (I think) mid-1987 until about 1991. I truly loved that machine. I really ought to drop a note to the guy I sold my old 2/170 chassis to back in '93. He *might* still have it but I doubt it. Ironically, this ties in to what we discussed as your application for my Cisco AGS chassis that I have earmarked for you. ;) My next FL trip will happen soon, so I'll be able to get that to you finally. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 23:31:13 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:31:13 -0700 Subject: Let's talk Sun 2 - Re: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB602D2.8020801@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5C6B9.4080708@gmail.com> <4EB5D691.7090102@neurotica.com> <4EB5DF8C.6050009@gmail.com> <4EB5F609.80508@neurotica.com> <4EB5FC6D.6070607@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB602D2.8020801@neurotica! .com> Message-ID: <4EB60D91.7080101@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 8:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/05/2011 11:18 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> OK point me to a 5 box that is accessible to the net. Are there >>>> even any >>>> 7 ones ? I have a Sun 2/210 here. I'm not going to put it outside my >> >> Wait wait wait a Sun 2? > It's actually a 2/120 missing the front and one side panel. Also the diags stop at what I take to mean the segment map test. Does it mean they passed or the next one failed ? Who knows anymore. None of the docs online are exactly my 100 cpu. Check out http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sun2/800-1185-01_2-120_CPU_Engr_Sep84.pdf and look at A-04. On mine all these page map ram chips are soldered. Later ones they seem to all be socketed. A common point of failure perhaps ? I have actually worked on old Sun multibus boards before and the traces will burn up in a second and everything is tightly packed. I really am nervous about removing every one of them and putting in sockets. I think I ma after u303 and u304 but, who knows. If stupid multibus extender cards didn't sell for way too much money on ebay I might. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 23:34:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:34:40 -0700 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB60233.1050803@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB60233.1050803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB5ABF0.18524.2B4620F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2011 at 20:42, Eric Smith wrote: > Sadly those seem to be going away. A lot of the new stuff is not 5V > tolerant. It feels like I've come full circle...wasn't RTL 3V logic? All they'd have to do is start offering logic in TO-100 packages again (we still have flatpacks; they just have more leads). --Chuck From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 23:36:46 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:36:46 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111060349.XAA08268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <201111060349.XAA08268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EB60EDE.2020703@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 8:49 PM, Mouse wrote: > That's why I'm treating you like a troll - including not engaging you > even on the actual points I find in your writing - and will continue > to do so until I see you acting otherwise. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / > Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! > 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B That is your loss then. If you don't engage with those you disagree with or argue with those who's manners you take offense to then it is at you own determent. From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 23:55:08 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 21:55:08 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB603C8.4040203@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> <4EB5E413.1030501@gma il.com> <4EB5F613.1020206@neurotica.com> <4EB5FCE0.1010707@gmail.com> <4EB603C8.4040203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB6132C.7030505@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 8:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > So you're saying that what the Internet "is" is defined by what eats > the most bandwidth? So what happens if I get thirty of my closest > friends with serious bandwidth access to start moving data on port 70, > does that mean Gopher is now what the Internet is all about? > > Do you see why I'm saying your reasoning is flawed? At this point, > note well that I don't believe for a second that you actually THINK > this way. I'm quite certain you're just pushing my buttons, probably > because you know I'm hip-deep in op-amps at the moment (oh, but we > probably don't really use THOSE anymore either!) with a demo mere days > away. > > *grumble* > > -Dave > I love op amps. Actually I'd rather talk about them. I was a recording engineer once upon a time that was an all Neve shop. You'll be all like , "Yea whatever" Anyway. Man the fights we had over TL072 vs 5534 etc vs all the *magic* that somehow magically flows through individual transistors was funny. I was beaten with a small piece of rubber hose when I didn't tow class A line. No class A circuit ever made a bad song sound good. Sometimes it made a great song better though. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 00:00:30 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 01:00:30 -0400 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2011, at 11:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Nov 2011 at 19:24, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Do there exist any split supply (3.3V/5V) level converter chips in >>> DIP? >> >> I don't think so. That's why I use 74LVC parts for the 5V to 3.3V >> direction, and 74HCT for the 3.3V to 5V direction, if 5V CMOS levels >> are actually needed. Usually they aren't. > > If it's a 3.3v microcontroller on the other side, it's a good reason > for selecting one with 5V tolerant inputs, I guess. At least you can > use plain old HCT in both directions. Yeah, a 3.3v CMOS output will still be putting out higher than many 5v TTL chips output. A surprising number of modern low-voltage micros still have 5v-compatible inputs. I worked with a seriously irritating TI DSP that, among other insults, only took 1.8v inputs (no higher, no lower). We had 12 voltage rails on that one AMC card (about 2"x5", highly integrated). We did, however, like the 74AVC4T245 for voltage translation. That almost fits your dual-supply bill, only the AVC parts don't go up to the full 5v. For that, your best bet would be in the LVC family; they have some dual-rail '245 and similar equivalents (e.g. the SN74LVC8T245). Nothing in DIP, though, so if you really wanted that you'd have to mount them to surfboards (I really like the ones by Bellin at http://www.beldynsys.com/; not cheap, but pretty nice protoboards the do mount up nicely). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 00:02:52 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 01:02:52 -0400 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB60233.1050803@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB60233.1050803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2011, at 11:42 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If it's a 3.3v microcontroller on the other side, it's a good reason > > for selecting one with 5V tolerant inputs, I guess. > > Sadly those seem to be going away. A lot of the new stuff is not 5V tolerant. > > Some of the Xilinx FPGAs (e.g., Virtex-6) aren't even 3.3V tolerant! There are a whole boatload of problems with the Virtex-6, and that's just one of them. The DDR3 waveforms coming out of them are just disgusting (though they do work) and some of the errata we've found are truly horrifying. Let's not start on the voltage sequencing issues (which, curiously, the Virtex-5 was free of; you could power that on in any order you damn well pleased). I was never much of a Xilinx guy before, but the V6 made me seriously question ever using them again (though the Spartan 6 may have kept me from swearing off them entirely). - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 6 00:33:59 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 01:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB60EDE.2020703@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <201111060349.XAA08268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB60EDE.2020703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111060533.BAA11092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> That's why I'm treating you like a troll - [...] > [...]. If you don't engage with those you disagree with [...] It's not that we disagree that leads me to take that stance. It's how you choose to express your disagreement. As for it being my loss, perhaps. I consider it a smaller loss to lose the points I've seen in your writing than to lose the irritation and the waste (for so I perceive it) of time. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From leaknoil at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 01:55:57 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 23:55:57 -0700 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111060533.BAA11092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <201111060349.XAA08268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB60EDE.2020703@gmail.com> <201111060533.BAA11092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EB62F7D.6050401@gmail.com> On 11/5/2011 10:33 PM, Mouse wrote: > As for it being my loss, perhaps. I consider it a smaller loss to lose > the points I've seen in your writing than to lose the irritation and > the waste (for so I perceive it) of time. No loss to me either. Happy trails. If someone comments on something I say I will speak my mind if I want to. I won't be quiet because apparently there is some group of ninja masters here in some vintage computer monastery or other crazy shit like that. Nor will I not speak my mind because some guy who wants to build a f15 in his garage, because he never would have been allowed to fly one in real life, doesn't like what I say. I give my opinions. Just ignore them if you don't like them. I have been attacked since the beginning as an idiot etc. I don't actually care. It has been the reason I keep having fun with this. I would like to say to some of the old farts here you need to pull the sticks out of your ass and make this whole scene more accessible and friendly. Because when you die, and it could be any day now, your family is going to end up dumping your precious pdp 8 in the back of some guys beat pickup truck to make space in the garage. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 6 01:15:02 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 02:15:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB62F7D.6050401@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> <201111060349.XAA08268@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB60EDE.2020703@gmail.com> <201111060533.BAA11092@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB62F7D.6050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111060715.CAA12323@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...]. It has been the reason I keep having fun with this. > [...] Because when you die, and it could be any day now, your family > is going to end up dumping your precious pdp 8 in the back of some > guys beat pickup truck to make space in the garage. Seldom have I seen so succinct an own goal. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at vaxen.net Sun Nov 6 01:38:58 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 01:38:58 -0600 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB603C8.4040203@neurotica.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> <4EB5E413.1030501@gma il.com> <4EB5F613.1020206@neurotica.com> <4EB5FCE0.1010707@gmail.com> <4EB603C8.4040203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB63992.5010709@vaxen.net> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> My GOD why am I entertaining this? You are a fucking TROLL, and you >>> like pushing my (very pushable!) buttons. >>> > I'm quite certain you're just pushing my buttons, probably because > you know I'm hip-deep in op-amps at the moment (oh, but we probably > don't really use THOSE anymore either!) with a demo mere days away. > > *grumble* Dude, just do what everybody else has already done. Killfile the fucker. Doc From tingox at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 07:13:29 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 13:13:29 +0100 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen >> Sent: 04 November 2011 22:25 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives >> >> Hi, >> >> Doesn't one need a clean room to fix that problem? >> (I've got a Micropolis 1325 which seems to have that problem) >> -- >> Regards, >> Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Personally I have unstuck 1325 drives without a clean room and not had any > problems, but that has been for hobbyist purposes only and I would not want > to guarantee that it will be fine for you. As in opening them up outside of a clean room? And the drives still work afterwards? Is there a how-to / writeup anywhere? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From robert.stek at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 10:14:08 2011 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 08:14:08 -0700 Subject: KryoFlux - imaging of vintage floppy disks via USB Message-ID: I am sure that I represent a very small number of the members of this list, the great majority of whom have more technical knowledge in their pinky than I have in my whole body. But I may represent those of us at whom the Kryo-Flux is at least partially aimed. I built my Sol-20 from a kit because I wanted a personal computer, could program in BASIC, FORTRAN, a little COBOL, a little C, and I knew which end of a soldering iron to hold on to. I am still a Heathkit/Dynaco kind of a hardware guy. I have a general understanding of maybe half of the technical concepts discussed on the list and can't contribute much beyond my 'power user' knowledge of S-100 machines and CP/M and what I remember from Sol Libes' S-100 Microcomputing, PC Tech Journal, BYTE, Interface Age, etc. I could patch a BIOS if necessary but my longest assembly language routine was about 13 bytes long. But I lurk here because I still have my Sol, some NorthStar drives, and even an 8" drive (which I once had Steve Ciarcia help me get working on my IBM AT!). My interest in the KryoFlux and the DiscFerret is both personal and potentially of use to the wider micro community in that I still have hundreds of 5.25" and 8" disks, many of them original, many more not. I simply enjoy tinkering with my machine and old software. I publicly give loud thanks to Jim Battle, Dave Dunfield, and others who have provided emulators, but I lack the determination (and space) (and my skills are VERY rusty) to set up my PC and Sol with both 5.25" and 8" drives under both NS-DOS and CP/M to read (and write?)and transfer the variety of hard and soft-sectored formatted software I have (with Kryo-Flux and DiscFerret in their present states). And I want to be able to preserve this software. Most of the big-name commercial software I have has already been preserved (but I may have a missing version). I was a software junkie back then and have more stuff than I can even recall. I am more than willing, nay, I am eager to save this stuff. I can offer my time and effort but I don't have the skills at the currently necessary levels to further the general effort. But what I need is a more semi-'turnkey' solution. I want something like Grumpy Ol' Fred's Xeno-Disk running under Windows or OSX or linux talking to a Kryoflux or DiscFerret attached to my still operating (for now) 5.25", 8" and plain vanilla 3.5" drives (and one at a time is fine). I want to be able to save my old programs in a format that can be used by the emulators available. I will send copies (and what documentation I have or can create) to any preservation society that wants it. This may not be much of a contribution but it is what I can do. And I suspect that there may be a whole lot more of 'me' out there. Whether we do it for fun, for nostalgia or for giving back to the micro community, it has got to be a 'plug 'n' play' type solution. I don't have and never expect to see some of the more exotic formats that some on this list deal with regularly. OTOH, I believe that I represent a mainstream portion of 'old geeks' who were the early adopters in the '70's and '80's and can still contribute something now if we have the tools. Maybe what I want will eventually happen. Maybe publicity efforts by libraries, preservation societies, etc. can make people aware that their cache of old disks has value and that they can contribute them directly or they can buy a device that easily connects their current computer to older drives so they can do it themselves. I don't mind paying $150 for the hardware AND software to do this. I hope that there are others (hopefully many others) like me out there. Are there? I don't know, but if you are reading this, please chime in. I applaud the people involved in these efforts. I have sent N* formatted disks and some technical docs to Phil (and have offered the same to KryoFlux). But that's about all I can do now. I'll just keep 'lurking' and hope that a solution which fits me will get here before I 'shuffle off this mortal coil.' Bob Stek Saver of lost Sols From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 5 14:52:42 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 19:52:42 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB5940A.8060002@philpem.me.uk> On 05/11/11 18:46, Mark Benson wrote: > I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same > action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of > 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a > terminal. Sounds like a job for the Unicomp Customizer... Standard 101-key layout: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/cus101usenon.html "Windows" 104-key layout: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html > I don't want to fudge an older PS/2 keyboard via a USB adapter as it > generally doesn't work 100% right and I occasionally get keys dropped > or doouble-typed. The Customizer is available in USB and PS2 variants :) > I also need the 'Windows' keys that a lot of older > decent keyboards lack. ... And yes, you can have one with Windows keys too :) > I'm willing to drop decent money to get one, so anyone got any > ideas? I've got a Customizer 105 UK-layout PS/2 with buckling spring keys (like the Model M). I love it -- I really couldn't see myself going back to using a membrane keyboard. It's naff all good for playing games, but I have a cheapo USB keyboard if I ever feel like doing that (or, incidentally, a Mac Mini with a copy of Steam installed... Portal2 is really the only game I play these days). Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mnealey at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:38:37 2011 From: mnealey at gmail.com (Mike Nealey) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:38:37 -0500 Subject: Looking for some parts help with an old computer (or two). Message-ID: <44D43307-49C1-4F1D-AF2C-6A9C1F5067A8@gmail.com> Hi, I am breaking out some old computers I have and need a couple parts to get them working. The computers in question are an Alpha ES40 and an HP ZX6000 workstation. Anyone out in list land happen to have any spare memory for an ES40? Any size will do, just need at least 4 pieces to work. I want to run some OpenVMS on this guy so any help would be great. Also, I need some Itanium 2 processors for the zx6000. Not worried about speed but the faster the better I guess. And would love to get two if possible. If ya have anything like the stuff I'm looking for laying around, let me know what you want for it. Thanks! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 6 06:03:12 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:03:12 -0000 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > Sent: 05 November 2011 12:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > >> Sent: 04 November 2011 22:25 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >> Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> Doesn't one need a clean room to fix that problem? > >> (I've got a Micropolis 1325 which seems to have that problem) > >> -- > >> Regards, > >> Torfinn Ingolfsen > > > > Personally I have unstuck 1325 drives without a clean room and not had > > any problems, but that has been for hobbyist purposes only and I would > > not want to guarantee that it will be fine for you. > > As in opening them up outside of a clean room? Yes > And the drives still work afterwards? For me, yes. > Is there a how-to / writeup anywhere? Not that I know of, but I can explain it. > > > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 6 07:20:29 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:20:29 -0000 Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide Message-ID: <04ff01cc9c86$dc916a90$95b43fb0$@ntlworld.com> I am looking for ek-mic11-sg-001, it is listed on Manx, but the link there does not work since the original site disappeared. I have the archive tar of Manx but it isn't in there either. Does anyone have a copy? Thanks Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Nov 6 08:56:13 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 14:56:13 -0000 Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide In-Reply-To: <04ff01cc9c86$dc916a90$95b43fb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <288BED8E8DED405B99F49A7FAECBFA43@ANTONIOPC> That's my scan - is it not up on the new manx or bitsavers? I guess not; I'll dig it out soon ... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 06 November 2011 13:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide > > > I am looking for ek-mic11-sg-001, it is listed on Manx, but > the link there does not work since the original site > disappeared. I have the archive tar of Manx but it isn't in > there either. Does anyone have a copy? > > Thanks > > Rob > From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 6 09:05:54 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 07:05:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB63992.5010709@vaxen.net> from Doc at "Nov 6, 11 01:38:58 am" Message-ID: <201111061505.pA6F5swo014852@floodgap.com> > Dude, just do what everybody else has already done. Done about two days ago. :P -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off. - From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Nov 6 09:11:09 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 15:11:09 -0000 Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide In-Reply-To: <288BED8E8DED405B99F49A7FAECBFA43@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <52E6AC04715740EF9FEB0798FA1F5049@ANTONIOPC> Weirdly it's not in my index nor in my archived data. I have found it however, 47.8MB. Probably too big for email. Send me FTP details privately or I'll upload it to rapidshare for you. Antonio > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 06 November 2011 14:56 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems > Maintenance Guide > > > That's my scan - is it not up on the new manx or bitsavers? > > I guess not; I'll dig it out soon ... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 06 November 2011 13:20 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide > > > > > > I am looking for ek-mic11-sg-001, it is listed on Manx, but > > the link there does not work since the original site > > disappeared. I have the archive tar of Manx but it isn't in > > there either. Does anyone have a copy? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Nov 6 09:24:41 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 15:24:41 -0000 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB44404.5060705@verizon.net> Message-ID: Keith Monahan [keithvz at verizon.net]: > The comical thing about the situation was that I already had > SYSPRV, as > I believe it is/was called (I haven't touched this stuff in a > quite some > time) I think you've illustrated a failure of trust or a failure of management. (The implication is that you were given SYSPRV and then abused it). > I only smiled and shrugged my shoulders ---- and remember > thinking not > much about VMS security. If you acquired SYSPRV through a failing in the OS then you have indeed earned the right not to think much about VMS security. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 6 09:35:04 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 15:35:04 -0000 Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide In-Reply-To: <288BED8E8DED405B99F49A7FAECBFA43@ANTONIOPC> References: <04ff01cc9c86$dc916a90$95b43fb0$@ntlworld.com> <288BED8E8DED405B99F49A7FAECBFA43@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <050901cc9c99$a952b180$fbf81480$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 06 November 2011 14:56 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide > > That's my scan - is it not up on the new manx or bitsavers? > > I guess not; I'll dig it out soon ... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 06 November 2011 13:20 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide > > > > > > I am looking for ek-mic11-sg-001, it is listed on Manx, but the link > > there does not work since the original site disappeared. I have the > > archive tar of Manx but it isn't in there either. Does anyone have a > > copy? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > Perhaps the best thing is to send it to BitSavers and then link Manx to there. Someone else has made a copy available to me, it is taking a bit of time to download it, but I will have it soon. Regards Rob From rob_j37 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 06:07:30 2011 From: rob_j37 at hotmail.com (RobJ) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:07:30 +0000 Subject: Emulex CU02 Message-ID: I recently acquired a machine that contains an Emulex CU02. I suspect it is a Qbus SCSI controller, but I am not sure. I have not been able to find any information on this card, all my searches find is dealers selling them, but no description. Does anyone have any pointers to information on this card? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 6 10:17:16 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 16:17:16 -0000 Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide In-Reply-To: <52E6AC04715740EF9FEB0798FA1F5049@ANTONIOPC> References: <288BED8E8DED405B99F49A7FAECBFA43@ANTONIOPC> <52E6AC04715740EF9FEB0798FA1F5049@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <050f01cc9c9f$8e7335f0$ab59a1d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 06 November 2011 15:11 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide > > Weirdly it's not in my index nor in my archived data. > > I have found it however, 47.8MB. Probably too big for email. > > Send me FTP details privately or I'll upload it to rapidshare for you. > > Antonio > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > > Sent: 06 November 2011 14:56 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance > > Guide > > > > > > That's my scan - is it not up on the new manx or bitsavers? > > > > I guess not; I'll dig it out soon ... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > > Sent: 06 November 2011 13:20 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide > > > > > > > > > I am looking for ek-mic11-sg-001, it is listed on Manx, but the link > > > there does not work since the original site disappeared. I have the > > > archive tar of Manx but it isn't in there either. Does anyone have a > > > copy? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob > > > > > Someone else let me have a copy so I am OK now. Thanks Rob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 11:30:12 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 11:30:12 -0600 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB59776.9797.264661B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB59776.9797.264661B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB6C424.7070801@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Nov 2011 at 21:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I've got a converter which I use to connect my Model M - oddly enough >> I've seen the same sort of behavior that Mark hints at, in that very >> occasionally the system will seem to think that a key has been held >> down, and will cough out repeat keypresses. > > You may want to peek inside to see if there are any active devices in > your converter. Most are purely passive--and there's the rub. AIUI it has to be active on a keyboard as old as the majority of model M's, which know absolutely nothing of USB - it's the logic in the (modern) keyboard which detects whether it's connected to a machine via USB or PS/2 and adjusts accordingly, rather than hardware on the PC side. cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:30:50 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:30:50 -0500 Subject: Things I should have learned in school Message-ID: I never really dealt with Fortran in university, and if I had, it probably would have been in a Unix context. Anyone have some pointers to me on how to process command-line switches in VMS from Fortran (I'm specifically tinkering with f77, but I suppose f90 should do; it's a matter of environment)? I guess it would be good to point out that I'm essentially a total neophyte when it comes to working with systems that are not UNIX (or bare metal, or classic Mac OS). Best I can tell is that I need to call either a SYS$ or CLI$ library function, but I'm a bit lost in the giant manual and Google doesn't seem to be helping me find sample code. The "standard" (which probably means UNIX-standard) iargc() and getarg() functions don't seem to work, at least not without some external library linked in, so I assume those aren't the way to go. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:38:38 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:38:38 -0500 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB6C424.7070801@gmail.com> References: , <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB59776.9797.264661B@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB6C424.7070801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <984A4BF4-2B3E-468C-A0E8-F549D9FAA78D@gmail.com> On Nov 6, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > AIUI it has to be active on a keyboard as old as the majority of model M's, which know absolutely nothing of USB - it's the logic in the (modern) keyboard which detects whether it's connected to a machine via USB or PS/2 and adjusts accordingly, rather than hardware on the PC side. That's exactly right. There's nothing wrong per se with the passive converters (the ones that convert USB to PS/2, anyway), they're just not really "converters". The problem you run into is that the cheaply-developed firmware in the keyboards themselves doesn't make for a particularly good PS/2 keyboard. To convert something that's actually PS/2 (or, more accurately, AT keyboard, since that's all that's going over those PS/2 lines for a keyboard anyway) to USB, it has to be something active since USB is considerably more complex than any older bus. You wouldn't just plug an RS-232 console on an RJ45 jack into Ethernet and expect it to work, either; they're fundamentally different communications systems. - Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 6 12:40:51 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 13:40:51 -0500 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> On 11/06/2011 07:03 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen >> Sent: 05 November 2011 12:13 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives >> >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Rob Jarratt >> wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen >>>> Sent: 04 November 2011 22:25 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >>>> Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Doesn't one need a clean room to fix that problem? >>>> (I've got a Micropolis 1325 which seems to have that problem) >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> Torfinn Ingolfsen >>> Personally I have unstuck 1325 drives without a clean room and not had >>> any problems, but that has been for hobbyist purposes only and I would >>> not want to guarantee that it will be fine for you. >> As in opening them up outside of a clean room? > Yes > >> And the drives still work afterwards? > For me, yes. > >> Is there a how-to / writeup anywhere? > Not that I know of, but I can explain it. > >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Torfinn Ingolfsen I've done this many times, as in more than 6 and have a stack of them to be worked on yet. No clean room, however a clean space and no flying dust. I just open them up and apply power and unstick the heads while rotating. I must be rotating as the heads will slide across the disk in contact. I've had that happen with no problems I try to avoid that. If that results in the heads doing a servo seek and settling on track 000 then I needs to deal with the gummy bumper, tweezers and sine disterity to grab the bumper and remove it or place a piece of adheasive paper on it so when the head retract I do not have to repeat the process. This assumes the HDA is otherwise ok, and same for electronics. I've written this up in comp.os.. (i forget) and others have as well over the years. This works because the disk spinning has great centrifical force and anything landing is destined for the perimeter where there is a circulation filter to pick it up. This is why the drive spins up before loading the heads (also to have the needed airflow for the heads to fly.). Also whats the worse that can happen, you kill an otherwise unusable disk? Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 6 12:46:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 10:46:11 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EB66573.28216.735BCC@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2011 at 1:00, David Riley wrote: >> We did, however, like the 74AVC4T245 for voltage translation. That > almost fits your dual-supply bill, only the AVC parts don't go up to > the full 5v. For that, your best bet would be in the LVC family; they > have some dual-rail '245 and similar equivalents (e.g. the > SN74LVC8T245). > Nothing in DIP, though, so if you really wanted that > you'd have to mount them to surfboards (I really like the ones by > Bellin at http://www.beldynsys.com/; not cheap, but pretty nice > protoboards the do mount up nicely). Those are fine for prototypes, but you can get pretty much the same thing cheaper at Futurlec: http://futurlec.com/SMD_Adapters.shtml And even those are somewhat overpriced. I picked up a small pile of 100-pin adapters for PIC32 from TeamETT that have spots for all of the close-in components (mostly chip caps and some resistors) as well as a header for an ICD2 programmer hookup for about $0.50 each and they even came in a cloth drawstring bag. I figure that the people in Thailand being flooded out could do with a little help. Better than sending your money to China. http://www.etteam.com/ Some very fun stuff there. I'm after a level-shifter that I can put in a socket on a production board, not on a prototype, so it can be easily replaced by a relatively unskilled person. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 6 12:51:18 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:51:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Things I should have learned in school In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111061851.NAA21496@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Anyone have some pointers to me on how to process command-line > switches in VMS from Fortran (I'm specifically tinkering with f77, > but I suppose f90 should do; it's a matter of environment)? > The "standard" (which probably means UNIX-standard) iargc() and > getarg() functions don't seem to work, at least not without some > external library linked in, so I assume those aren't the way to go. I assume you're running it as a foreign command, rather than with RUN? It's been a very long time since I used VMS - I think VMS 3.x was the latest and greatest at the time - but I think you are correct, you need to call some kind of CLI-interface function. I *think* (and this is vaguer, quite possibly wrong) that your program may need to declare to DCL what switches it takes and whether they take values. Back in the day, this was documented enough that I managed to figure it out, so unless VMS doc has gotten substantially worse, the necesary info ought to be lurking there somewhere. I realize this probably isn't much help; at most, it's "don't give up, it should be there somewhere' encouragement. Hmm, I might have VMS on a disk somewhere. If you can't get anywhere any other way I can try to dig out the relevant machine and see if the help files say enough to be useful - I think in my case I found it in the dead-tree docs. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Nov 6 13:15:35 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:15:35 -0000 Subject: Things I should have learned in school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0F64A673552E4CB6A362F237A0E366F8@ANTONIOPC> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: > I never really dealt with Fortran in university, and if I > had, it probably would have been in a Unix context. Anyone > have some pointers to me on how to process command-line > switches in VMS from Fortran (I'm specifically tinkering with > f77, but I suppose f90 should do; it's a matter of environment)? You don't make it clear whether you are running this as a foreign command or whether you have created a command definition and are running your program as a CLI command. Since the latter requires enough work that you would have seen the docs at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/84final/4493/4493pro_contents.html I guess that you are doing the former. In that case your program is being run as a "foreign" command. So if your program is (for example) DISK$USERS:[USER]FOO.EXE then you've done this at DCL: FOO :== $DISK$USERS:[USER]FOO.EXE and then you type FOO MY COMMAND /LINE In that case you want LIB$GET_FOREIGN: http://www.itec.suny.edu/scsys/vms/OVMSDOC073/V73/5932/5932pro_023.html# index_x_191 (I've no idea why google found that rather than the HP one ...) The FORTRAN docs are also online so you should be able to find out how to call library routines (pay attention to by value, by reference and by descriptor). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 13:18:09 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 14:18:09 -0500 Subject: Things I should have learned in school In-Reply-To: <201111061851.NAA21496@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201111061851.NAA21496@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <27984AC2-075E-4B97-AA3A-4B4D4C1BA957@gmail.com> On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:51 PM, Mouse wrote: > I assume you're running it as a foreign command, rather than with RUN? Actually, I was doing it with RUN, which may have been the problem? Perhaps that's not meant to pass command-line values. I'm new at this. > Back in the day, this was documented enough that I managed to figure it > out, so unless VMS doc has gotten substantially worse, the necesary > info ought to be lurking there somewhere. It's not *bad*, per se, it's just in a big HTML/PDF equivalent of a phone book, so I'm having a spot of trouble figuring out in the morass of stuff where I should be looking. The online index is terrible. > Hmm, I might have VMS on a disk somewhere. If you can't get anywhere > any other way I can try to dig out the relevant machine and see if the > help files say enough to be useful - I think in my case I found it in > the dead-tree docs. The online (and by "online" I mean "in VMS" this time) help seems to be mostly about running the various commands to produce executables, so it's probably not that. I'll keep poking around in the online (on HP's website) development guide and see if it just takes some more patience. :-) - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 13:22:52 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 14:22:52 -0500 Subject: Things I should have learned in school In-Reply-To: <0F64A673552E4CB6A362F237A0E366F8@ANTONIOPC> References: <0F64A673552E4CB6A362F237A0E366F8@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:15 PM, wrote: > David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: > >> I never really dealt with Fortran in university, and if I >> had, it probably would have been in a Unix context. Anyone >> have some pointers to me on how to process command-line >> switches in VMS from Fortran (I'm specifically tinkering with >> f77, but I suppose f90 should do; it's a matter of environment)? > > You don't make it clear whether you are running this as a foreign > command > or whether you have created a command definition and are running your > program as a CLI command. Since the latter requires enough work that > you would have seen the docs at > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/84final/4493/4493pro_contents.html > I guess that you are doing the former. Actually, this is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Not sure why I wasn't seeing it before, but that should do the trick. I guess, coming from UNIX, I wasn't as clear on the distinction between an executable and a command, so it looks like I need to build a command (or possibly, while I'm getting up to speed, just take my arguments interactively, which is a whole lot easier). Thanks! - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 13:25:35 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:25:35 -0600 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> Message-ID: in witch case u wind up with a peac of wall art On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:40 PM, allison wrote: > On 11/06/2011 07:03 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen >>> Sent: 05 November 2011 12:13 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >>> Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Rob Jarratt>> ntlworld.com > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>>>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen >>>>> Sent: 04 November 2011 22:25 >>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >>>>> Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Doesn't one need a clean room to fix that problem? >>>>> (I've got a Micropolis 1325 which seems to have that problem) >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Torfinn Ingolfsen >>>>> >>>> Personally I have unstuck 1325 drives without a clean room and not had >>>> any problems, but that has been for hobbyist purposes only and I would >>>> not want to guarantee that it will be fine for you. >>>> >>> As in opening them up outside of a clean room? >>> >> Yes >> >> And the drives still work afterwards? >>> >> For me, yes. >> >> Is there a how-to / writeup anywhere? >>> >> Not that I know of, but I can explain it. >> >> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Torfinn Ingolfsen >>> >> > I've done this many times, as in more than 6 and have a stack of them to > be worked on yet. > > No clean room, however a clean space and no flying dust. I just open > them up and apply > power and unstick the heads while rotating. I must be rotating as the > heads will slide across > the disk in contact. I've had that happen with no problems I try to avoid > that. If that results > in the heads doing a servo seek and settling on track 000 then I needs to > deal with the > gummy bumper, tweezers and sine disterity to grab the bumper and remove it > or place a > piece of adheasive paper on it so when the head retract I do not have to > repeat the process. > > This assumes the HDA is otherwise ok, and same for electronics. > > I've written this up in comp.os.. (i forget) and others have as well over > the years. > > This works because the disk spinning has great centrifical force and > anything landing > is destined for the perimeter where there is a circulation filter to pick > it up. This is why > the drive spins up before loading the heads (also to have the needed > airflow for the > heads to fly.). > > Also whats the worse that can happen, you kill an otherwise unusable disk? > > > Allison > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 6 13:47:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:47:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB59776.9797.264661B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 5, 11 08:07:18 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Nov 2011 at 21:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I've got a converter which I use to connect my Model M - oddly enough > > I've seen the same sort of behavior that Mark hints at, in that very > > occasionally the system will seem to think that a key has been held > > down, and will cough out repeat keypresses. > > You may want to peek inside to see if there are any active devices in > your converter. Most are purely passive--and there's the rub. How could a purely passive converter possibly work with an original Model M? Surely a USB port is not going to accept the clock/data lines of a Type M on its differnetial data line pair? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 6 13:25:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:25:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: grrr....an apology In-Reply-To: <4EB5BA3E.1070204@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 5, 11 06:35:42 pm Message-ID: > > > Dammit. I've been trolled once again. > > I have very little tolerance for (what I perceive as) cluelessness > backed up by arrogance, and something in my personal makeup just can't > let misinformation stand. I try very hard to know the difference > between facts and opinions, and I think I do that much better than many As an aside : In the stonework over a doorway in Southwark (part of 'London' south of the Thames) is a statement that many here should remember. It's the doorway of Kilkaldy's Testing Works and reads : 'Facts not Opinions' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 6 13:40:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:40:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Nov 5, 11 06:53:10 pm Message-ID: > > But rememebr a digital multiplexer (like the 74x151) performs a buffering > > function too -- the input is 1 TTL load, the output will drive at least > > 10 simialr loads. This is obviously not true of the analogue > > multiplexers, which are trasnmission gates. This can be important. > > > > And it's why you can't use 4016s, etc as bidirecitonal data bus buffers. > > They perform no buffering at all. > > Well, yes. I like that they're just switches. Buffers have their > place, of course, but sometimes it's nice to have a little DIP IC > that'll switch off your headphone port without clicking too much. > They're fundamentally different devices. Absolutely. I never said Analogue Muxes were useless (they're not, I've user them a lot, I've seen them used (correctly) a lot). But as you said, they are differnet devices from digital muxes. > > I actually found the 4052 great for muxing a UART channel 4 ways > because you didn't have to use 2 chips; the Rx and Tx were treated I usspect you could have fitted the logic into a PAL if you ant a 1-chip digital solution :-). Or you could have used a pair of chips ('153 and '139, perhaps) and multiplexed a couple of flow cotnrol singals too. More seriously, there is no reason not to use a 4052 here. It does the job. There is no problem with speed or fanout. > equally because they were just transmission gates. It would only ever > be good if you were on the same PCB (or at least not going too far), > but that was what I was doing, so it was great. > > They're also not particularly fast, but at least for what I was using True, but as you rightly say, that's not always important. You'd not use one to switch the bus lines on a multi-MHz processor. That doens't mean they have no uses. > them for, they didn't need to be. As with anything, it's a matter of > understanding the limitations. :-) Of courese. I 100% agree with you. As I have said many times, it's a mistake to think that because soemthing can't solve a particular problem, it can't solve any problem. It's an equal mistake ot assuem that becase (a) is better than (b) in one particualr circumstance, it must always be better. 4000 series CMOS is an example of this. It can't solve every logic problem, and there are families that are better in some cases. This does not make 4000 series CMOS useless. -tony From md.benson at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 14:17:29 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 20:17:29 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB5940A.8060002@philpem.me.uk> References: <4EB5940A.8060002@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <43B84E0A-8247-42C1-A80E-5915A81431CA@gmail.com> On 5 Nov 2011, at 19:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 05/11/11 18:46, Mark Benson wrote: >> I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same >> action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of >> 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a >> terminal. > > Sounds like a job for the Unicomp Customizer... Yeah that looks lie my best bet but the shipping is holy-b-jebus. I'm in the UK so it's almost 60 dollars by FedEx... on a keyboard that already costs 99 dollars :S -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From md.benson at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 14:20:43 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 20:20:43 +0000 Subject: grrr....an apology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 Nov 2011, at 19:25, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >> Dammit. I've been trolled once again. >> >> I have very little tolerance for (what I perceive as) cluelessness >> backed up by arrogance, and something in my personal makeup just can't >> let misinformation stand. I try very hard to know the difference >> between facts and opinions, and I think I do that much better than many > > As an aside : > > In the stonework over a doorway in Southwark (part of 'London' south of > the Thames) is a statement that many here should remember. It's the > doorway of Kilkaldy's Testing Works and reads : > > 'Facts not Opinions' An extension of that is an old tenant of mine: Opinions are permissible, but not enforceable. Facts are indisputable. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 6 14:21:53 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:21:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <43B84E0A-8247-42C1-A80E-5915A81431CA@gmail.com> References: <4EB5940A.8060002@philpem.me.uk> <43B84E0A-8247-42C1-A80E-5915A81431CA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Mark Benson wrote: > On 5 Nov 2011, at 19:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> On 05/11/11 18:46, Mark Benson wrote: >>> I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same >>> action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of >>> 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a >>> terminal. >> >> Sounds like a job for the Unicomp Customizer... > > Yeah that looks lie my best bet but the shipping is holy-b-jebus. I'm in > the UK so it's almost 60 dollars by FedEx... on a keyboard that already > costs 99 dollars :S That's weird. I routinely send stuff about the same weight to the UK and Australia and it costs only around 35 dollars by USPS Priority. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 6 14:40:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 12:40:53 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB59776.9797.264661B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 5, 11 08:07:18 pm, Message-ID: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2011 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > How could a purely passive converter possibly work with an original > Model M? Surely a USB port is not going to accept the clock/data lines > of a Type M on its differnetial data line pair? It can't. But maybe I wasn't following the thread closely enough. But a good active converter should be every bit as good as a native USB keyboard. Over at http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/prjhid.html, the AVR V-USB project site, there are a number of nifty low-cost AVR projects for various keyboard USB projects, including replacing the electronics of a Model M with a custom board, adapting a Sparc Station keyboard, a RS232C serial terminal keyboard, a C64 keyboard...to USB. I've been thinking of doing one of the Model M changes myself--it appears to be a reversible modification. Just more grist for the mental mill. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 6 14:44:27 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:44:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: John McCarthy [for Gene B, not McCarthy related] In-Reply-To: <201111051657.pA5GsKYh024144@ims-m12.mx.aol.com> References: <201111051657.pA5GsKYh024144@ims-m12.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >>> The editor/IDE that comes with FreePascal that Gene B pointed me to has >>> a very MSDOS/TurboPascal look and feel. > >> fpide? That was done on purpose. :) >> >> g. > > Yeah, that's the impression I got. Just seeing that was kind of a thrill. > > Thanks for pointing me to that project. There's a hell of a lot of work > that went into that whole system. Some really nice stuff. Got distracted > again and haven't given it the attention I wanted but first impressions > were indeed impressive. You might want to check out the Lazarus and mseGUI projects as well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 6 14:46:24 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:46:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, John Foust wrote: > At 11:47 AM 11/5/2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Please either list the known vulnerabilities in VMS v5 or quit talking out your ass. > > http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=c02002308 > > Does OpenVMS count? That was the first google hit. > Note that the bulletin specifically mentions Apache, not VMS. (Open or otherwise) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 6 14:48:15 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:48:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/5/2011 11:16 AM, John Foust wrote: >> At 11:47 AM 11/5/2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >>> Please either list the known vulnerabilities in VMS v5 or quit talking out >>> your ass. >> http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=c02002308 >> >> Does OpenVMS count? That was the first google hit. >> >> - John >> > There are plenty and if anyone had any unpatched ones they certainly wouldn't > share them to a public mailing list. He didn't really want an answer though. > He was just being a typical pissy internet troll. > No, I was just demanding you either put up or shut up. To be clear, yes - I want an answer. Please list these "plenty" of known vulnerabilities in VMS 5. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Nov 6 14:48:58 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 20:48:58 -0000 Subject: Things I should have learned in school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: 06 November 2011 19:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Things I should have learned in school > > > On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:15 PM, wrote: > > > David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: > > > >> I never really dealt with Fortran in university, and if I > >> had, it probably would have been in a Unix context. Anyone > >> have some pointers to me on how to process command-line > >> switches in VMS from Fortran (I'm specifically tinkering with > >> f77, but I suppose f90 should do; it's a matter of environment)? > > > > You don't make it clear whether you are running this as a foreign > > command or whether you have created a command definition and are > > running your program as a CLI command. Since the latter requires > > enough work that you would have seen the docs at > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/84final/4493/4493pro_contents.html > > I guess that you are doing the former. > > Actually, this is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. > Not sure why I wasn't seeing it before, but that should do > the trick. I guess, coming from UNIX, I wasn't as clear on > the distinction between an executable and a command, so it > looks like I need to build a command (or possibly, while I'm > getting up to speed, just take my arguments interactively, > which is a whole lot easier). Doing your own command is fairly easy. All the nuts and bolts are descibed here: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/6100/aa-qsbde-te.pdf Start by deciding what parameters and qualifiers you want. The write your CLD file (see the above manual for the syntax: don't be put off by the apparent complexity, if you want something simple, the language is simple too). If your command file is FOO.CLD you can now do $ SET COMMAND FOO.CLD and your command will be accessible as a DCL commad (until you log out, if you want it forever you get to do a slightly more complicated dance - once). Now you write your command and parse with CLI$PRESENT and CLI$GET_VALUE. Jump to page CDU-48 and read that through. It's an example in BASIC but it sounds like what you want to do. My (albeit rusty) recollection is that BASIC and FORTRAN calling conventions are quite similar, so there's a decent chance that the example does what you want. You should also look in SYS$EXAMPLES (just search for CLI$ in there and see if there are any FORTRAN examples). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 6 14:49:04 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:49:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Mark Benson wrote: > I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a terminal. My Logitech G110 is fine for general work (it's a decent keyboard in it's own right) but the 12 macro keys on the end confuse the b-jebus out of me and also the key-spacing is designed for gamers no typists. > > I don't want to fudge an older PS/2 keyboard via a USB adapter as it generally doesn't work 100% right and I occasionally get keys dropped or doouble-typed. I also need the 'Windows' keys that a lot of older decent keyboards lack. > > I'm willing to drop decent money to get one, so anyone got any ideas? > The best source for brand new buckling spring keyboards: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 6 14:55:30 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:55:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> <4EB33E99.2040204@gmail.com> <4EB3429B.6060102@neurotica.com> <4EB34785.8060200@gmail.com> <4EB34D5D.20808@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A915.1080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/5/2011 1:45 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: >> I'm not even arguing either side - but the more you say, the more you >> come off sounding like an agressive dick. >> > I'm the one being insulted and I come off like an aggressive dick ? Some fat > ugly hick was talking about putting a bullet in my head. Have you bothered to Wow. Your reading comprehension skills are really lagging. This ex-fat, possibly ugly and no where near hick said, "...could take a gunshot to the head and still be twice as smart as YOU". In this context, "YOU" means, well, you. Leaknoil The Prolonged. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 6 15:01:11 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:01:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: who won the lisp machine? Message-ID: So... Who won the lisp machine on ebay? See http://www.ebay.com/itm/320784929577 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 6 15:03:00 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:03:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Matthew Hudson wrote: > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> >>> I miss my 8250. :( >> >> > Truely big iron. I had the chance to get my hands on a 6000 but had no > space for it at the time. Sadly I think it went to the scrapper. :( It was an awesome machine too. Three cabinets, four RA-81 drives and a TU-81+ tape drive. I paid $500 for it, straight out of the machine room at Mannesmann-Tally in Kent, WA in the early 90's. I had two 30A 110v services installed just to be able to turn it on. We set it up in the 2nd floor of the house I was living at the time. The whole house hummed while it was on. When we moved in 2006, the floor still had a slight bow to it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cctech at vax-11.org Sun Nov 6 15:13:41 2011 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 14:13:41 -0700 (MST) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The keyboard decoder chip inside the keyboard can detect if it is connected to a passive adapter plug and switch from USB to PS/2 mode. Clint On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 5 Nov 2011 at 21:49, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> I've got a converter which I use to connect my Model M - oddly enough >>> I've seen the same sort of behavior that Mark hints at, in that very >>> occasionally the system will seem to think that a key has been held >>> down, and will cough out repeat keypresses. >> >> You may want to peek inside to see if there are any active devices in >> your converter. Most are purely passive--and there's the rub. > > How could a purely passive converter possibly work with an original Model > M? Surely a USB port is not going to accept the clock/data lines of a > Type M on its differnetial data line pair? > > -tony > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 15:23:40 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 16:23:40 -0500 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB59776.9797.264661B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 5, 11 08:07:18 pm, <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5D04E855-3FB0-4A2F-85F1-3EFEDD806B00@gmail.com> On Nov 6, 2011, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Over at http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/prjhid.html, the AVR V-USB > project site, there are a number of nifty low-cost AVR projects for > various keyboard USB projects, including replacing the electronics of > a Model M with a custom board, adapting a Sparc Station keyboard, a > RS232C serial terminal keyboard, a C64 keyboard...to USB. That actually brings to mind a converter I've been meaning to make, but have so far not put the dollars or time in to cook up the necessary board for it. I'd like to have an ADB-to-USB translator of the opposite sort usually seen; I have a bunch of old Macs and a dwindling supply of keyboards for them, so I need something which can put a USB keyboard/mouse on the ADB bus. It'd be no small feat, especially if I wanted to throw in USB hub support along with mouse support so one could plug this into a USB KVM switch; there are already plenty of "gotchas" cropping up in my mind about emulating different types of keyboards, foreign ones, etc. Nonetheless, it would solve a number of problems for me and hopefully for other people as well. If I ever get around to it, I'll put up the plans somewhere so folks can tinker with it. - Dave From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 15:32:54 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 16:32:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for some parts help with an old computer (or two). In-Reply-To: References: <44D43307-49C1-4F1D-AF2C-6A9C1F5067A8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Googling ES40 memory is a start. The DIMMS are 200pin > DEC proprietary. An ES40 will require memory to be installed > in sets of 4, matched in speed and size. Common dimm sizes > are 128M, 256M and 512M with 1G dimms a bit harder to find and > are usually expensive.. That's what I thought. Don't have anything like that - sorry. -- From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 6 15:37:27 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 13:37:27 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB59776.9797.264661B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 5, 11 08:07:18 pm, <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB6FE17.4070604@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Over at http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/prjhid.html, the AVR V-USB > project site, there are a number of nifty low-cost AVR projects for > various keyboard USB projects, including replacing the electronics of > a Model M with a custom board, [...] Cool! I've got an IBM Model M part number 1389194, which is an APL keyboard for a 3192 terminal, with a not-quite-AT interface. I've wanted to modify it into a USB keyboard. Looks like Chris Lee has done all the hard work for me. The 31xx terminals implement a subset of the AT/PS2 protocol. They have a different 5-pin full-size DIN connector with different wiring than the AT, though they are electrically compatible so you can make a wiring adapter. However, they only have scancode set 3, so they need a hacked keyboard driver to work with normal PC software. They won't work with any USB adapter I've found. The main thing I don't like about the 31xx keyboard layout is that the cursor pad is a cross rather than an inverted T. I'll solve that by remapping to swap the center and down buttons. The USB HID Usage Tables define IDs for function keys up to F24, but the IBM 122-key keyboards have another 10 keys to the left of the main keyboard. There are standard IDs for some of them, like CrSel, but I'm not sure whether there's a standard mapping for others. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 6 16:07:20 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 14:07:20 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB70518.5090300@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > How could a purely passive converter possibly work with an > original Model M? cctech at vax-11.org wrote: > The keyboard decoder chip inside the keyboard can detect > if it is connected to a passive adapter plug and switch from > USB to PS/2 mode. Not if it's a Model M keyboard, since it predated the USB interface by a decade. That's the point. Very old and very new PS/2 keyboards don't support the passive USB adapters. From ttmrichter at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 17:15:24 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:15:24 +0800 Subject: grrr....an apology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > An extension of that is an old tenant of mine: > > Opinions are permissible, but not enforceable. > Facts are indisputable. You rented out property to an aphorism? Or did you mean "tenet"? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Nov 6 17:19:41 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 23:19:41 +0000 Subject: Emulex CU02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB7160D.4060707@dunnington.plus.com> RobJ wrote: > I recently acquired a machine that contains an Emulex CU02. I suspect it is > a Qbus SCSI controller, but I am not sure. I have not been able to find any > information on this card, all my searches find is dealers selling them, but > no description. Does anyone have any pointers to information on this card? Sorry to disappoint you, but a CU02 is a communications controller. It's a serial line multiplexer, which IIRC connects to a pair of panels that have some RS232 ICs and DB25 connectors on them. I don't have any docs for that one, but might still have docs for a CS11 (which is a Unibus version). Emulex disk controllers have SCxx and QDxx designations. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 17:46:14 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:46:14 -0500 Subject: who won the lisp machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2011, at 4:01 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > So... Who won the lisp machine on ebay? See http://www.ebay.com/itm/320784929577 I don't know, but I was surprised to see that it was state of the art in the mid-980s. Seems a little advanced for pre-Renaissance computing. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 17:49:20 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:49:20 -0500 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B504798-D637-4E76-AA0D-5A36E9F4B4E6@gmail.com> On Nov 6, 2011, at 4:13 PM, cctech at vax-11.org wrote: >> How could a purely passive converter possibly work with an original Model >> M? Surely a USB port is not going to accept the clock/data lines of a >> Type M on its differnetial data line pair? >> >> -tony >> > > The keyboard decoder chip inside the keyboard can detect if it is connected to a passive adapter plug and switch from USB to PS/2 mode. Emphasis: *original* model M. Passive adaptors certainly won't let you plug an original Model M into USB (or at least if they do, it won't give you a working USB device). You'd need something to talk AT keyboard on one end and USB HID on the other. In the other direction with modern USB keyboards, you are exactly right. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 17:51:56 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:51:56 -0500 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> ?I miss my 8250. :( > It was an awesome machine too. ?Three cabinets, four RA-81 drives and a > TU-81+ tape drive. ?I paid $500 for it, straight out of the machine room at > Mannesmann-Tally in Kent, WA in the early 90's. Nice rig. I still have my 8300 in the basement that I rescued when my employer closed in the mid 1990s (we bought it as a bare 8200, second-hand for $13000, then I nabbed a compatible CPU module for around $100-$200. For disk, it has one RA81 and one MDA ESDI-SDI disk box. I wish I could get the DWBUA working on it, but I've gotten stumped by what looks like self-test failures talking to the UET module at the far end of the Unibus. I have multiple UETs, but until I find a way to test them outside of the DWBUA, I have no confidence any of them work (or might not require an ECO specifically to work with a DWBUA). The machine runs fine - just no Unibus. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 6 17:59:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 15:59:07 -0800 Subject: Things I should have learned in school In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB6AECB.616.191DA83@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2011 at 13:30, David Riley wrote: > I never really dealt with Fortran in university, and if I had, it > probably would have been in a Unix context. Anyone have some pointers > to me on how to process command-line switches in VMS from Fortran (I'm > specifically tinkering with f77, but I suppose f90 should do; it's a > matter of environment)? Don't feel too bad. There's absolutely no reason that you should have learned this in school. External command-line processing isn't discussed in the ANSI standard in f77 or f90. Every vendor does it differently. One approach, for example, is to backspace input one record and perform a READ to retrieve the command line, but that is by no means universal. --Chuck From hexsane at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 18:16:47 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:16:47 -0600 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle > wrote: > >>>> I miss my 8250. :( > > It was an awesome machine too. Three cabinets, four RA-81 drives and a > > TU-81+ tape drive. I paid $500 for it, straight out of the machine room > at > > Mannesmann-Tally in Kent, WA in the early 90's. > > Nice rig. > > I still have my 8300 in the basement that I rescued when my employer > closed in the mid 1990s (we bought it as a bare 8200, second-hand for > $13000, then I nabbed a compatible CPU module for around $100-$200. > The biggest I ever brought home was a rack 4000. It was just a rack and the computer. No drives :( -Matt From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 6 18:28:13 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 19:28:13 -0500 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB7261D.7000500@verizon.net> On 11/06/2011 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>> I miss my 8250. :( >> It was an awesome machine too. Three cabinets, four RA-81 drives and a >> TU-81+ tape drive. I paid $500 for it, straight out of the machine room at >> Mannesmann-Tally in Kent, WA in the early 90's. > Nice rig. > > I still have my 8300 in the basement that I rescued when my employer > closed in the mid 1990s (we bought it as a bare 8200, second-hand for > $13000, then I nabbed a compatible CPU module for around $100-$200. > For disk, it has one RA81 and one MDA ESDI-SDI disk box. I wish I > could get the DWBUA working on it, but I've gotten stumped by what > looks like self-test failures talking to the UET module at the far end > of the Unibus. I have multiple UETs, but until I find a way to test > them outside of the DWBUA, I have no confidence any of them work (or > might not require an ECO specifically to work with a DWBUA). > > The machine runs fine - just no Unibus. > > -ethan > I still have the microVAXII that was under my desk at DEC still running VMS-5.4. That and a bunch of 3100s (m76s and some others) all running and a few mV2000 running and as formatters. The BA123 uVAXII has a RD54 and CMD200 with 2 RZ56s. The 3100s have 1gb baracudas and a few odd 4.3gb and some 400mb SCSIs internal along with external BA42 storage boxes with 2 RZ56s each. Storage is not an issue but space, power and heat tends to pop up if I run them all. When all running they are the AIRPRT: LAVC cluster of 10 nodes. My collection is anything CP/M, PDP-8e, All manner of Qbus PDP-11 and all those VAXen. There are a smaller collection of SBCs (SC/MP, ELF, 6800D1, Ti9900(technico), Super starter kit 6100, TK80, SDK85, and IMSAI IMP48 and a few others). In the oddball collection is my EELF (Spare time gizmos) Embedded elf fully loaded with disk and IO in a case with a CRT and accepts a PS2 keyboard. Allison From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 18:49:15 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:49:15 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems Message-ID: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Here's a quandary that I've posted a few places, with varying success. I have a CMD CQD-220TM SCSI board (QBUS MSCP SCSI, drive and tape) which was working fine when I got it. It's now only partially functional with a few odd symptoms on my 11/23+. The basic problem is that the CPU (it's actually an embedded 8086 system) seems unstable, but in a somewhat deterministic way. I can have it copy the PDP-11 online utility into RAM and execute that, and I can perform a few operations on that before it bugs out (basically the CSR stops responding to requests and the utility hangs waiting for a confirmation code). The most interesting is when I try to run the "other utilities"; it starts up, but then crashes when trying to display the serial number. I should also mention that the UART doesn't seem to work, and I've tried both wirings (NULL modem and non) with no success. It's wired up like a standard DEC serial port (the header on the board has the same Rx/Tx and GND pins, which are all that are connected in my adaptors), so I just attached one of my adaptors to it. Here's the really interesting bit. After running over both the PDP and the 8086 side for a while with IDA Pro (which has been a lifesaver on many projects), it looks like the "other utilities" section actually talks directly to the 8086; the software on the board redirects the character output to one of the CSRs and the PDP and the 8086 converse that way. You get the same output as the UART. This is only true for the "other utilities" section, though; the rest of it executes natively on the PDP. Has anyone experienced this sort of problem with this (or a similar) card? I'm not really keen on building up a trace module to figure out what the 8086 is doing (though I have a few FPGA eval boards which would work just fine if I use SignalTap; I just don't want to go through the trouble of building it if the answer is simple). I'm honestly puzzled by this; it was working fine when I got it, and then I plugged it in after a move and no dice. I'm still banging on it with IDA pro. I hope it's not a busted PAL/GAL/PLA (of which there are about 20 on the board), because for the most part there's no way of redoing any of those without spending weeks on the assembly trying to figure out what they're supposed to do. The SCSI chip (a 53C90A) is a socketed PLCC, and they're not impossible to find second-hand, so if it turns out to be a problem there, I should be able to fix that by just throwing some money at it. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 6 19:10:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 20:10:05 -0500 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB6132C.7030505@gmail.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EB35005.9010009@neurotica.com> <4EB35764.5060407@telegraphics.com.au> <4EB35EDB.3020800@gmail.com> <4EB37906.3090705@gmail.com> <4EB40EDD.1000009@neurotica.com> <4EB489A8.1040105@gmail.com> <201111050114.VAA17445@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EB4968B.5030001@gmail.com> <201111051825.pA5IPdYv070561@billy.ezwind.net> <4EB58230.2030502@gmail.com> <4EB597D1.5020602@vaxen.net> <4EB59F15.3020109@gmail.com> <4EB5A33A.1090306@neurotica.com> <4EB5ADA8.10709@gmail.com> <4EB5B6EB.90400@neurotica.com> <4EB5C432.9060000@gmail.com> <4EB5D6B0.1070909@neurotica.com> <4EB5E413.1030501@gma il.com> <4EB5F613.1020206@neurotica.com> <4EB5FCE0.1010707@gmail.com> <4EB603C8.4040203@neurotica.com> <4EB6132C.7030505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB72FED.1060108@neurotica.com> On 11/06/2011 12:55 AM, leaknoil wrote: > I love op amps. Me too! > Actually I'd rather talk about them. I was a recording > engineer once upon a time that was an all Neve shop. You'll be all like > , "Yea whatever" Anyway. Not at all. I've never done the studio side, but I've done some small-venue sound reinforcement work. Great stuff. > Man the fights we had over TL072 vs 5534 etc vs > all the *magic* that somehow magically flows through individual > transistors was funny. *snicker* > I was beaten with a small piece of rubber hose when I didn't tow class A > line. No class A circuit ever made a bad song sound good. Sometimes it > made a great song better though. "Class A is the way", man! ;) For the past couple of days I've been designing a driver circuit for a liquid conductivity sensor. It basically pumps low-voltage AC at about 1KHz (to avoid polarization of the liquid) through a conductivity cell and turns that into a 4-20mA sensor interface signal. The value must also be temperature-compensated; there's a platinum RTD in the conductivity cell for that. So, a small gaggle of op-amps and way too much math. But I love it anyway. :) I hope to have the design finished by tomorrow night. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 21:36:56 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:36:56 -0800 Subject: 4000 Series CMOS Parts? In-Reply-To: References: from "David Message-ID: > > > > > I actually found the 4052 great for muxing a UART channel 4 ways > > because you didn't have to use 2 chips; the Rx and Tx were treated > Hi Until it is safely in the board, handle the 4052 with extreme caution as to static. These are more easily blown than the regular ligic 4000 parts. I also recommend installing them last, after the other parts are there to protect them. Again, I can't over state their static sensitivity enough. Dwight From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Nov 6 22:44:13 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 20:44:13 -0800 Subject: who won the lisp machine? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I was surprised it went for that much. I was hoping to pick it up for the Museum since Portland is a three-hour drive from here (and my wife's family lives down that way). I'd rather have one of the discrete-based precursors and would be more likely to pay nearly $2K for that, but with the 'no shipping' mandate I thought it would be more sensibly priced. There's the eBay feeding frenzy for you.... --Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 3:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: who won the lisp machine? On Nov 6, 2011, at 4:01 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > So... Who won the lisp machine on ebay? See http://www.ebay.com/itm/320784929577 I don't know, but I was surprised to see that it was state of the art in the mid-980s. Seems a little advanced for pre-Renaissance computing. - Dave From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Nov 6 10:41:32 2011 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 11:41:32 -0500 Subject: Looking for some parts help with an old computer (or two). References: <44D43307-49C1-4F1D-AF2C-6A9C1F5067A8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Googling ES40 memory is a start. The DIMMS are 200pin DEC proprietary. An ES40 will require memory to be installed in sets of 4, matched in speed and size. Common dimm sizes are 128M, 256M and 512M with 1G dimms a bit harder to find and are usually expensive.. I posted some photos of the dimms on my Google image site, Google Alphaserver in the photos section and you should find it. As for the ZX6000, memory and processors are readily available on ebay. Dan Butler, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 5:38 PM Subject: Re: Looking for some parts help with an old computer (or two). > On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Mike Nealey wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am breaking out some old computers I have and need a couple parts to >> get them working. The computers in question are an Alpha ES40 and an HP >> ZX6000 workstation. >> >> Anyone out in list land happen to have any spare memory for an ES40? Any >> size will do, just need at least 4 pieces to work. I want to run some >> OpenVMS on this guy so any help would be great. > > Do you know exactly what that used for memory? Some of the DEC machines > used registered ECC memory and some of the larger ones had proprietary > memory. > > > -- > > From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 11:27:44 2011 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 10:27:44 -0700 Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide In-Reply-To: <52E6AC04715740EF9FEB0798FA1F5049@ANTONIOPC> References: <288BED8E8DED405B99F49A7FAECBFA43@ANTONIOPC> <52E6AC04715740EF9FEB0798FA1F5049@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: I would be interested in a copy as well. I am not in a hurry. I do hope the manual will appear on BitSavers :-) Thanks. --barrym On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 8:11 AM, wrote: > Weirdly it's not in my index nor in my archived data. > > I have found it however, 47.8MB. Probably too big for email. > > Send me FTP details privately or I'll upload it to rapidshare for you. > > Antonio > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > > Sent: 06 November 2011 14:56 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems > > Maintenance Guide > > > > > > That's my scan - is it not up on the new manx or bitsavers? > > > > I guess not; I'll dig it out soon ... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > > Sent: 06 November 2011 13:20 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide > > > > > > > > > I am looking for ek-mic11-sg-001, it is listed on Manx, but > > > the link there does not work since the original site > > > disappeared. I have the archive tar of Manx but it isn't in > > > there either. Does anyone have a copy? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:42:48 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:42:48 -0500 Subject: Emulex CU02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Rob, The PDP-11 module field guide at http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt says it is a SCSI disk controller that emulates an MSCP controller for one to four disks. Nice find. Cheers, Christian On 6 November 2011 07:07, RobJ wrote: > I recently acquired a machine that contains an Emulex CU02. I suspect it is > a Qbus SCSI controller, but I am not sure. I have not been able to find any > information on this card, all my searches find is dealers selling them, but > no description. Does anyone have any pointers to information on this card? > > Thanks > > Rob > > From tingox at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 15:16:00 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 22:16:00 +0100 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi, On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:40 PM, allison wrote: > I've done this many times, as in more than 6 and have a stack of them to be > worked on yet. That sounds good, the "many times" part I mean. > No clean room, however a clean space and no flying dust. ? ?I just open them > up and apply > power and unstick the heads while rotating. I must be rotating as the heads > will slide across > the disk in contact. ?I've had that happen with no problems I try to avoid > that. How do you unstick the heads? Do you simply poke at them with your finger or a suitable instrument? (I tried finding pictures of the insides of a Micropolis 1325, but failed) >?If that results in the heads doing a servo seek and settling on track 000 then I needs to > deal with the gummy bumper, tweezers and sine disterity to grab the bumper and remove it > or place a piece of adheasive paper on it so when the head retract I do not have to > repeat the process. It sounds like placing a piece of adhesive paper on it is the easiest way. Since I only want to do this once; can I just any kind of adhesive paper, or is there something I need to watch out for? > This assumes the HDA is otherwise ok, and same for electronics. The previous owner claims that he had the machine boot from this drive before, so if nothing bad has happened since then it should still be ok. When connected to power, the disk spins up, then turns off after a minute or so. > I've written this up in comp.os.. (i forget) and others have as well over > the years. I tried googling for repair hints, but didn't find it. Perhaps my google-fu isn't strong enough. > > This works because the disk spinning has great centrifical force and > anything landing > is destined for the perimeter where there is a circulation filter to pick it > up. ?This is why > the drive spins up before loading the heads (also to have the needed airflow > for the > heads to fly.). Cool, I didn't know about the airflow part. > Also whats the worse that can happen, you kill an otherwise unusable disk? Agreed. However, this is the only hard drive in a ND-100/CX machine[1] that I have, and I don't have any other ST-506 hard drives. Supposedly, there is an operating system and an application (simulator / demo) on the hard drive, so I'm interested in preserving that. References: 1) http://sites.google.com/site/tingox/nd_3392-1669 -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:22:51 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:22:51 +0000 Subject: grrr....an apology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F4E38FE-9BAA-49C7-8EE8-6CB4B68D9198@gmail.com> On 6 Nov 2011, at 23:15, Michael Richter wrote: >> >> An extension of that is an old tenant of mine: >> >> Opinions are permissible, but not enforceable. >> Facts are indisputable. > > > You rented out property to an aphorism? Or did you mean "tenet"? I did. I'm also dyslexic ;) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:29:01 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:29:01 +0000 Subject: Emulex CU02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 Nov 2011, at 18:42, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Hello Rob, > > The PDP-11 module field guide at > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt says it is a SCSI disk > controller that emulates an MSCP controller for one to four disks. I searched that document for CU and CU02 and couldn't find it... can you point out what line number it's on? -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 7 01:48:00 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:48:00 -0000 Subject: Emulex CU02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <053b01cc9d21$93f4b030$bbde1090$@ntlworld.com> I have the field guide, but I can't find reference to the CU02 in there. Which entry are you referring to? Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > Sent: 06 November 2011 18:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Emulex CU02 > > Hello Rob, > > The PDP-11 module field guide at > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt says it is a SCSI disk > controller that emulates an MSCP controller for one to four disks. > > Nice find. > > Cheers, > Christian > > > > > On 6 November 2011 07:07, RobJ wrote: > > I recently acquired a machine that contains an Emulex CU02. I suspect > > it is a Qbus SCSI controller, but I am not sure. I have not been able > > to find any information on this card, all my searches find is dealers > > selling them, but no description. Does anyone have any pointers to > information on this card? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 7 01:53:17 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:53:17 -0000 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> Message-ID: <053c01cc9d22$5161baf0$f42530d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > Sent: 06 November 2011 21:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives > > Hi, > > On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:40 PM, allison wrote: > > I've done this many times, as in more than 6 and have a stack of them > > to be worked on yet. > > That sounds good, the "many times" part I mean. > > > No clean room, however a clean space and no flying dust. ? ?I just > > open them up and apply power and unstick the heads while rotating. I > > must be rotating as the heads will slide across the disk in contact. > > I've had that happen with no problems I try to avoid that. > > How do you unstick the heads? Do you simply poke at them with your finger > or a suitable instrument? > (I tried finding pictures of the insides of a Micropolis 1325, but failed) I just move the head assembly a bit, there is an interlock mechanism that stops the heads going across the disks, but there is a bit of play in it usually which should allow you to unstick them. However, that usually is not enough to cure the problem because the bumpers have turned to sticky goo and the next time the heads touch the goo they will stick again. > > >?If that results in the heads doing a servo seek and settling on track > >000 then I needs to deal with the gummy bumper, tweezers and sine > >disterity to grab the bumper and remove it or place a piece of > >adheasive paper on it so when the head retract I do not have to repeat the > process. > > It sounds like placing a piece of adhesive paper on it is the easiest way. Since I > only want to do this once; can I just any kind of adhesive paper, or is there > something I need to watch out for? I just use a Post-It, really anything will do, you just need to cut a narrow enough strip to go into the gap where the bumper is. One thing to be aware of is that the disk can be sensitive to the thickness of the paper. If you completely remove the goo you need to experiment with multiple layers of paper until the starting position of the heads is just right, otherwise you will end up with the same stop-start behaviour. > > > This assumes the HDA is otherwise ok, and same for electronics. > > The previous owner claims that he had the machine boot from this drive > before, so if nothing bad has happened since then it should still be ok. > When connected to power, the disk spins up, then turns off after a minute or > so. > > > I've written this up in comp.os.. (i forget) and others have as well > > over the years. > > I tried googling for repair hints, but didn't find it. Perhaps my google-fu isn't > strong enough. > > > > > This works because the disk spinning has great centrifical force and > > anything landing is destined for the perimeter where there is a > > circulation filter to pick it up. ?This is why the drive spins up > > before loading the heads (also to have the needed airflow for the > > heads to fly.). > > Cool, I didn't know about the airflow part. > > > Also whats the worse that can happen, you kill an otherwise unusable disk? > > Agreed. > However, this is the only hard drive in a ND-100/CX machine[1] that I have, > and I don't have any other ST-506 hard drives. > Supposedly, there is an operating system and an application (simulator / > demo) on the hard drive, so I'm interested in preserving that. > > References: > 1) http://sites.google.com/site/tingox/nd_3392-1669 > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 7 02:23:37 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:23:37 +0000 Subject: Emulex CU02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB79589.2090702@dunnington.plus.com> Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > The PDP-11 module field guide at > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt says it is a SCSI disk > controller that emulates an MSCP controller for one to four disks. I think you must have misread something. The CS02 is definitely a comms controller. It emulates a DH11/DHV11. The manual is on bitsavers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 7 02:54:05 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 09:54:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > in witch case u wind up with a peac of wall art Hm, I've never had the idea to think of an HDA as a case to put in witches... nor peacs (whatever that may be). Christian From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Nov 7 03:08:01 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:08:01 +0000 Subject: Things I should have learned in school In-Reply-To: References: <0F64A673552E4CB6A362F237A0E366F8@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4EB79FF1.4020004@wickensonline.co.uk> On 06/11/11 19:22, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:15 PM, wrote: > >> David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote: >> >>> I never really dealt with Fortran in university, and if I >>> had, it probably would have been in a Unix context. Anyone >>> have some pointers to me on how to process command-line >>> switches in VMS from Fortran (I'm specifically tinkering with >>> f77, but I suppose f90 should do; it's a matter of environment)? >> You don't make it clear whether you are running this as a foreign >> command >> or whether you have created a command definition and are running your >> program as a CLI command. Since the latter requires enough work that >> you would have seen the docs at >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/84final/4493/4493pro_contents.html >> I guess that you are doing the former. > Actually, this is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Not sure why I wasn't seeing it before, but that should do the trick. I guess, coming from UNIX, I wasn't as clear on the distinction between an executable and a command, so it looks like I need to build a command (or possibly, while I'm getting up to speed, just take my arguments interactively, which is a whole lot easier). > > Thanks! > > > > - Dave > > > > Dave, If you want to go down the CLI route and define your application in the command dictionary then there is a simple example of defining a command and calling CLI to process the options here (admittedly C based, but the underlying calls are easy to transfer between languages): http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/retro/programming-2.html From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Nov 7 03:36:24 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:36:24 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB58B0E.2040002@brouhaha.com> References: <4EB58B0E.2040002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB7A698.3090906@wickensonline.co.uk> On 05/11/11 19:14, Eric Smith wrote: > On 11/05/2011 11:46 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > >> I'm looking for a good action, high quality keyboard of the same >> action/type as an IBM Model M or the really great Cherry keyboards of >> 'the day' to use on modern machines to code with and work at a >> terminal. > > It looks like the CVT Avant Stellar is no longer available. It was a > clone of the Northgate OmniKey Ultra-T. > > The genuine Model M technology went from IBM to their spinoff Lexmark > to Unicomp: > http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html > > Here are some other options, though I haven't personally tried any of > them: > > Adesso Full Size Mechanical > http://www.adesso.com/en/home/keyboards/mechanical-keyboard.html > > Das Keyboard (available with or without key legends) > http://www.daskeyboard.com/ > > Rosewill Mechanical Keyboard > http://www.rosewill.com/products/4/24/296/0000/0,0/series.htm > > SteelSeries 6Gv2 > http://steelseries.com/products/keyboards/steelseries-6gv2 > > Does anyone know if a keyboard that has function keys to the left and no numeric keypad? I find a lot of modern keyboards too wide to use comfortably with a mouse, and have always found function keys on the left great for debugging. I guess I'm looking for the modern equivalent of an 'AT'-like layout. Thanks, Mark. From ats at offog.org Mon Nov 7 05:09:07 2011 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 11:09:07 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: (David Griffith's message of "Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:09:09 -0700 (PDT)") References: Message-ID: David Griffith writes: > Try Unicomp at http://www.pckeyboard.com. They have > newly-manufactured Model Ms and well as other good keyboards. I'm typing on one of their keyboards right now, a UK-layout Customiser. It's not quite accurate to call them Model Ms: they have the same keyswitch mechanism, but no removable keycaps, and the keyboard as a whole is quite a bit lighter (and louder!) than a vintage Model M. On the upside, they have native USB. I use a real Model M at home, with a USB adaptor that looks the same as the one clickykeyboards sell: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/124184 My adaptor came from a local supplier, so it's worth shopping around. I've also got several other (active) PS/2-to-USB adaptors that work with most old keyboards but not with Model Ms, presumably owing to power requirements. I've not found any adaptor that works with the ancient AT-interface barcode reader I use for cataloguing books... -- Adam Sampson From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 7 08:32:20 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 06:32:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>> ?I miss my 8250. :( >> It was an awesome machine too. ?Three cabinets, four RA-81 drives and a >> TU-81+ tape drive. ?I paid $500 for it, straight out of the machine room at >> Mannesmann-Tally in Kent, WA in the early 90's. > > Nice rig. > > I still have my 8300 in the basement that I rescued when my employer > closed in the mid 1990s (we bought it as a bare 8200, second-hand for > $13000, then I nabbed a compatible CPU module for around $100-$200. > For disk, it has one RA81 and one MDA ESDI-SDI disk box. I wish I > could get the DWBUA working on it, but I've gotten stumped by what > looks like self-test failures talking to the UET module at the far end > of the Unibus. I have multiple UETs, but until I find a way to test > them outside of the DWBUA, I have no confidence any of them work (or > might not require an ECO specifically to work with a DWBUA). > > The machine runs fine - just no Unibus. > The 8250 was VAXBI, not Unibus, so this puzzles me (the 8350 was an 8250 with two CPU cards in it if memory serves) The guy that ended up with my 8250 had an 8300 that he used parts of mine to upgrade to an 8350. He even had the big RAM battery pack installed in it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 08:50:53 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:50:53 -0600 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> Adam Sampson wrote: > I use a real Model M at home, with a USB adaptor that looks the same as > the one clickykeyboards sell: > > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/124184 That's exactly* the one I have; does your setup ever cough out repeated keystrokes? If not it might suggest that my converter is fine and I should be looking elsewhere (if I can ever motivate myself to do so) for the source of the problem - well, unless there's some subtle timing / signal level issue at play (my Model M's an early one without the status LEDs; perhaps there was a minor change in the components or firmware on later ones, rather than there being something actually "broken" in my setup) * product string of "USBPS2", Vendor 0d3d, revision 0.01 cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 09:20:00 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:20:00 -0500 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle >>>> wrote: >>>>>> ?I miss my 8250. :( >> >> I still have my 8300 in the basement... I wish I could get the DWBUA >> working on it... >> >> The machine runs fine - just no Unibus. > > The 8250 was VAXBI, not Unibus, so this puzzles me (the 8350 was an 8250 > with two CPU cards in it if memory serves) Yes. The 8200 and 8250 have one CPU, the 8300 and 8350 have two. Unlike later models, these CPUs sit right on the VAXBI bus. When these machines came out, DEC provided the most obvious native peripherals (KDB50 disk, DEBNI ethernet, DMB32 serial mux, CI interface, etc) but there were so many oddball Unibus cards out there (including the ones we sold) that another peripheral was the DWBUA BI-to-Unibus adapter. Some models were ordered and shipped with one BI section and one DD11DK and a DWBUA with short cables in the BA32 chassis, but what we had was the more common version - two BI sections in the main BA32 and long cables over to a BA11 in the next rack over. In my case, it was all working in its former home, but something happened to it when I moved it and the DWBUA has never worked since. The BI portion all works - memory, disk, dual CPUs, etc., but the amber LED on the DWBUA card stays off and the Unibus isn't seen by VMS. I have the maintenance manual for the DWBUA - I've been through the register poking at the chevron prompt - it appears to be a failure of one of the many tests the DWBUA performs before coming online of a kind where it is reporting some not-as-well-documented fault with the UET module on the far end of the Unibus. I could be having a cable fault, a card fault, or a backplane fault. In the end, the DWBUA performs some reads and writes and is not getting the answers it's looking for. I have more than one UET module - ISTR different ones give me different results from the DWBUA self-test, so I'm willing to entertain one or more are broken. What would help is being able to test and repair a UET in some other box, but that's a poorly documented module. Here's a thread from a couple of years back with some detail... http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2009-April/064428.html -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 7 09:26:03 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 09:26:03 -0600 Subject: Teletype model 33s in Phoenix and Orange County Message-ID: <201111071526.pA7FQCYC021015@billy.ezwind.net> > >http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/for/2687081512.html > >http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sys/2616025271.html > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 7 09:54:44 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:54:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB7A698.3090906@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4EB58B0E.2040002@brouhaha.com> <4EB7A698.3090906@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <201111071554.KAA07016@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Does anyone know [of] a keyboard that has function keys to the left > and no numeric keypad? Well, my own favourite, the Sun type-3, has a 2x5 array of function keys to the left of the main body and a 3x5 array to the right. But the 3x5 array is not a numeric keypad (no digits marked on them, for example) and occupies less physical space than the typical peecee seven columns plus a gap (three columns for pgup/pgdn/ins/del/home/end and the arrow keys, gap, four columns for the numeric keypad). I'm not sure I'd call it "modern", though, and if you're looking for an "'AT'-like" layout then it may not work for you in any case - I don't know peecee keyboards, even classic ones, enough to know what "AT-like" means in keyboard layout.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ats at offog.org Mon Nov 7 09:55:05 2011 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:55:05 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> (Jules Richardson's message of "Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:50:53 -0600") References: <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson writes: > That's exactly* the one I have; does your setup ever cough out > repeated keystrokes? Not that I've noticed. Sounds like my keyboard's later than yours, though (1988). > * product string of "USBPS2", Vendor 0d3d, revision 0.01 Yep, sounds like mine: Bus 001 Device 006: ID 0d3d:0001 Tangtop Technology Co., Ltd HID Keyboard It requests MaxPower 100mA, which is a bit less than clickykeyboards claims a Model M actually uses -- but I know the machine I'm using it on doesn't enforce the USB power requirements anyway, so it should be safe up to half an amp... -- Adam Sampson From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 10:13:00 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:13:00 -0500 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <201111071554.KAA07016@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EB58B0E.2040002@brouhaha.com> <4EB7A698.3090906@wickensonline.co.uk> <201111071554.KAA07016@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2011, at 10:54 AM, Mouse wrote: > I'm not sure I'd call it "modern", though, and if you're looking for an > "'AT'-like" layout then it may not work for you in any case - I don't > know peecee keyboards, even classic ones, enough to know what "AT-like" > means in keyboard layout.... Typically, they're actually referring to the connection. The AT keyboard connected with a 5-pin DIN connector and had a clock and serial data line; the host polled the keyboard, which sent keyup/keydown messages. The PS/2 keyboard connector used the same physical and logical layer in a 6-pin Mini-DIN connector. Not that you needed to know, but now you do. :-) - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 7 10:16:13 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 08:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Gene Buckle >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ?I miss my 8250. :( >>> >>> I still have my 8300 in the basement... I wish I could get the DWBUA >>> working on it... >>> >>> The machine runs fine - just no Unibus. >> >> The 8250 was VAXBI, not Unibus, so this puzzles me (the 8350 was an 8250 >> with two CPU cards in it if memory serves) > > Yes. The 8200 and 8250 have one CPU, the 8300 and 8350 have two. > Unlike later models, these CPUs sit right on the VAXBI bus. > > When these machines came out, DEC provided the most obvious native > peripherals (KDB50 disk, DEBNI ethernet, DMB32 serial mux, CI > interface, etc) but there were so many oddball Unibus cards out there > (including the ones we sold) that another peripheral was the DWBUA > BI-to-Unibus adapter. Some models were ordered and shipped with one > BI section and one DD11DK and a DWBUA with short cables in the BA32 > chassis, but what we had was the more common version - two BI sections > in the main BA32 and long cables over to a BA11 in the next rack over. > Ahh, ok. That would be an interesting setup once you've got it running well. I know that the ethernet card in the 8250 would just "go away" when the room temp hit about 70F. I was running Ultrix on the machine - it was a blast. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 7 10:39:09 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:39:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB58B0E.2040002@brouhaha.com> <4EB7A698.3090906@wickensonline.co.uk> <201111071554.KAA07016@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201111071639.LAA07698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'm not sure I'd call it "modern", though, and if you're looking for >> an "'AT'-like" layout then it may not work for you in any case - I >> don't know peecee keyboards, even classic ones, enough to know what >> "AT-like" means in keyboard layout.... > Typically, they're actually referring to the connection. Well, in this case it followed remarks about physical space, so I think Mark probably was talking about the physical layout of the keys rather than anything bearing on the connector, either mechanically or electrically. > Not that you needed to know, but now you do. :-) Indeed. :) That sort of knowledge always comes in handy eventually. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 10:54:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:54:46 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: , <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> (Jules Richardson's message of "Mon, 07 Nov 2011 08:50:53 -0600"), Message-ID: <4EB79CD6.18532.2B5D51@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2011 at 15:55, Adam Sampson wrote: >> It requests MaxPower 100mA, which is a bit less than clickykeyboards > claims a Model M actually uses -- but I know the machine I'm using it > on doesn't enforce the USB power requirements anyway, so it should be > safe up to half an amp... Good point, though. I wonder if the clickykeyboards figure is with all LEDs illuminated. I can see that some of the various PCBs used with the keyboard might draw more current. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 12:01:04 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 13:01:04 -0500 Subject: All the VAX talk has me wanting my VAXen back :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... The 8200 and 8250... the 8300 and 8350... >> DEC provided the most obvious native peripherals... >> the DWBUA BI-to-Unibus adapter... two BI sections >> in the main BA32 and long cables over to a BA11 in the next rack over. >> > Ahh, ok. ?That would be an interesting setup once you've got it running > well. I have so many Unibus boards that it would be nice to get it working, especially since I can drop in multiple COMBOARD I and COMBOARD II boards along with one or two COMBOARD BI boards (the COMBOARD I only had 32K of SRAM, so it's limited to a HASP or 3780 emulator image; the COMBOARD II has 128K of DRAM but nobody ever ported the older images to it so it only runs SNA as a PU.2; the COMBOARD BI has 256K to 2MB (via socketed 44C256s) but customer demand for SNA on our products was already waning by the early 1990s, so I only ever got HASP and 3780 working on it. >?I know that the ethernet card in the 8250 would just "go away" when > the room temp hit about 70F. Interesting. I have either a DEBNI or a DEBNT and a cab kit. I haven't spent much time trying to get it working (since I'm running VMS 5.x and didn't have TCP/IP for it and I didn't have DECnet running on Ethernet anywhere else - only DECnet over DDCMP/sync serial). > I was running Ultrix on the machine - it was a blast. :) We ran Ultrix on 11/750s and 11/730s in the same room, but we only ever ran VMS on this box. It was purchased to finish our COMBOARD BI development, and after that, we mostly kept it powered off since all of our storage and everything else was on our 11/750 (half on SDI disk and half on SMD disks w/SI9900 controller), and by that time, we had less than 10 users, so the 11/750 was our main machine from our peak of 70-some employees down to the last days of the company. I still liked the 8300, but if it weren't for specifically needing a BI machine for product development, we never would have purchased it. Same goes for the 8530 (that I had to leave behind because I had no room left). That one was bought to fix a bug with Nautilus-bus machines where using our product could take down the entire machine (turned out to be bad to issue a bus STOP packet on an NI machine - was safe on BI and XMI machines, so the fix was literally commenting out one line of code in the driver). Those were fun days. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 7 12:18:03 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 18:18:03 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> References: <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB820DB.7090700@dunnington.plus.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Adam Sampson wrote: >> I use a real Model M at home, with a USB adaptor that looks the same as >> the one clickykeyboards sell: >> >> http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/124184 >> > > That's exactly* the one I have; does your setup ever cough out repeated > keystrokes? It looks very like the one I used to put my SGI Indy keyboard (my favourite) on a PC, and I did very occasionally have that issue with one keyboard. Another of the same model was OK, and after testing two or three I recall soldering a resistor onto one of the lines somewhere, but I don't remember if that was to fix the keybounce or something else - probably something else. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 12:39:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 10:39:08 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB820DB.7090700@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com>, <4EB820DB.7090700@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4EB7B54C.30886.8AECB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2011 at 18:18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > It looks very like the one I used to put my SGI Indy keyboard (my > favourite) on a PC, and I did very occasionally have that issue with > one keyboard. Another of the same model was OK, and after testing two > or three I recall soldering a resistor onto one of the lines > somewhere, but I don't remember if that was to fix the keybounce or > something else - probably something else. You may want to try adding pullups for the clock and data lines out of the keyboard. 4K7 should be just fine. Just a hunch, nothing more. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 13:17:36 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:17:36 -0600 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB82ED0.1030002@gmail.com> Adam Sampson wrote: > Jules Richardson writes: > >> That's exactly* the one I have; does your setup ever cough out >> repeated keystrokes? > > Not that I've noticed. Sounds like my keyboard's later than yours, > though (1988). Yes, mine turns 25 this month :-) >> * product string of "USBPS2", Vendor 0d3d, revision 0.01 > > Yep, sounds like mine: > Bus 001 Device 006: ID 0d3d:0001 Tangtop Technology Co., Ltd HID Keyboard > > It requests MaxPower 100mA, which is a bit less than clickykeyboards > claims a Model M actually uses -- but I know the machine I'm using it on > doesn't enforce the USB power requirements anyway, so it should be safe > up to half an amp... Thanks! Hmm - I wonder if I can disconnect the +5V line at the keyboard and supply +5V elsewhere (maybe just tap from the machine's +5V direct), just to try that for a while and see if the problem goes away (it had occurred to me that it might be an over-current issue). I'm not sure if the adapter relies on seeing a current draw (implying a connected keyboard) for it to function correctly, though... cheers Jules From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Nov 7 13:34:27 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 19:34:27 +0000 Subject: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB41A0C.27439.1A5F4D0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4EB34FFC.80005@gmail.com>, <4EB41A0C.27439.1A5F4D0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA035624@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 5:00 PM > On 4 Nov 2011 at 16:08, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I don't think DEC has built a single machean. > I think that's just a misspelling of "Manichean". Queue up "Dualing Banjos"[sic]. A student of mine used to have on his whiteboard Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together... Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 7 13:40:40 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:40:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB82ED0.1030002@gmail.com> References: <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> <4EB82ED0.1030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > Adam Sampson wrote: >> It requests MaxPower 100mA, which is a bit less than clickykeyboards >> claims a Model M actually uses -- but I know the machine I'm using it on >> doesn't enforce the USB power requirements anyway, so it should be safe >> up to half an amp... > > Thanks! > > Hmm - I wonder if I can disconnect the +5V line at the keyboard and supply > +5V elsewhere (maybe just tap from the machine's +5V direct), just to try > that for a while and see if the problem goes away (it had occurred to me that > it might be an over-current issue). > > I'm not sure if the adapter relies on seeing a current draw (implying a > connected keyboard) for it to function correctly, though... You might want to consider a simple modification that reduces the current draw. Just add some pullup resistors to the clock and data lines. I think someone else mentioned this too. See http://ps-2.kev009.com:8081/ohlandl/keyboard/modify_keyboard/Model_M_Modifications.html for a discussion on that mod. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 13:57:49 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:57:49 -0800 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 4:49 PM, David Riley wrote: > Here's a quandary that I've posted a few places, with varying success. ?I have a CMD CQD-220TM SCSI board (QBUS MSCP SCSI, drive and tape) which was working fine when I got it. ?It's now only partially functional with a few odd symptoms on my 11/23+. > > I'm honestly puzzled by this; it was working fine when I got it, and then I plugged it in after a move and no dice. ?I'm still banging on it with IDA pro. ?I hope it's not a busted PAL/GAL/PLA (of which there are about 20 on the board), because for the most part there's no way of redoing any of those without spending weeks on the assembly trying to figure out what they're supposed to do. ?The SCSI chip (a 53C90A) is a socketed PLCC, and they're not impossible to find second-hand, so if it turns out to be a problem there, I should be able to fix that by just throwing some money at it. > I haven't seen any behavior like that with any of the CQD-220/TM that I have. What version of the firmware are you using? The latest image I have is CQD-220/TM B3A.02 (F220Y1B3A, F220Y2B3A) 10/17/95. Swapping in different EPROMs would be trivial to try, but might not be too likely to change the behavior. The only PAL I have looked at is the CSR decode PAL, which I reverse engineered to be able to convert CQD-220/T and CQD-220/M versions into CQD-220/TM versions. -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 14:17:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 12:17:01 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: , <4EB82ED0.1030002@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4EB7CC3D.20799.E48807@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2011 at 11:40, David Griffith wrote: > You might want to consider a simple modification that reduces the > current draw. Just add some pullup resistors to the clock and data > lines. I think someone else mentioned this too. See > http://ps-2.kev009.com:8081/ohlandl/keyboard/modify_keyboard/Model_M_M > odifications.html for a discussion on that mod. I have to admit that I don't understand how the mod reduces current draw--the way the keyboard is interfaced is with open-collector (open drain), devices. Adding pullups would seem to *increase* the power drain. That being said, it's probably okay to power the keyboard separately from the USB adapter, as long as the only pin shared between the USB interface and the power supply is ground. I suspect that a simple adapter cable that does not feed the +5 supply to the USB converter can be easily constructed for this purpose. I have no idea if this will improve matters, however. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Nov 7 14:44:57 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 20:44:57 +0000 Subject: NEC FD1157C jumper doco In-Reply-To: <4EB5944B.5299.2580827@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB574BB.2485.1DCBAD8@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111106012829.26A52A6786@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4EB5944B.5299.2580827@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB84349.8050206@philpem.me.uk> On 06/11/11 02:53, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, that tinyurl throws my browser into executing a catch-throw > script loop and I never do get to what it's pointing at. FTFY: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.cpm/tree/browse_frm/month/1992-02/1432c104a5357abd -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 15:23:28 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:23:28 -0600 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com> <4EB82ED0.1030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB84C50.7050509@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Adam Sampson wrote: >>> It requests MaxPower 100mA, which is a bit less than clickykeyboards >>> claims a Model M actually uses -- but I know the machine I'm using it on >>> doesn't enforce the USB power requirements anyway, so it should be safe >>> up to half an amp... >> >> Thanks! >> >> Hmm - I wonder if I can disconnect the +5V line at the keyboard and >> supply +5V elsewhere (maybe just tap from the machine's +5V direct), >> just to try that for a while and see if the problem goes away (it had >> occurred to me that it might be an over-current issue). >> >> I'm not sure if the adapter relies on seeing a current draw (implying >> a connected keyboard) for it to function correctly, though... > > You might want to consider a simple modification that reduces the > current draw. Just add some pullup resistors to the clock and data > lines. I think someone else mentioned this too. See > http://ps-2.kev009.com:8081/ohlandl/keyboard/modify_keyboard/Model_M_Modifications.html > for a discussion on that mod. Hmm, thanks for that - that's interesting, because my keyboard's done the "lock up" thing on a (very small) handful of occasions, too. Unplugging the converter and plugging it back in has always cured it (until the next time) and I'd always assumed that it was a mechanical issue - i.e. that I'd accidentally disturbed cables at the rear of the PC and dislodged it (the converter's a little bulky so rubs against various other cables, not to mention that the M's keyboard cable is quite a heavy thing to have hanging from something that's plugged into a vertical USB socket) Maybe the fault is related to the occasional "repeated keys" phenomenon, though. cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 15:30:36 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:30:36 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I haven't seen any behavior like that with any of the CQD-220/TM that > I have. What version of the firmware are you using? The latest image > I have is CQD-220/TM B3A.02 (F220Y1B3A, F220Y2B3A) 10/17/95. Swapping > in different EPROMs would be trivial to try, but might not be too > likely to change the behavior. The only PAL I have looked at is the > CSR decode PAL, which I reverse engineered to be able to convert > CQD-220/T and CQD-220/M versions into CQD-220/TM versions. Right, I remember, I conversed with you on a different forum (and got your ROM and PAL images). It's interesting; dropping the ROM image into new EPROMs won't even let me boot the code (the 8086 part works, because it copies it to the host and I can start executing it, but it won't let me use the board; I don't recall the exact error message, but it's something like "NOT A SCSI BOARD" and I haven't had time to disassemble that part of the PDP-11 executable). Burning the CSR PAL to a new GAL didn't change anything, which I suppose is good. I put the original back in so I wouldn't have to use up one of my relatively small supply of GAL22V10s. :-) None of the other PLDs are socketed, so pulling them just to read them is not something I'd do on a whim. I suppose I ought to check what the firmware's criteria are for rejecting the board. That might give me at least a bit of a hint as to what's going on. - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 7 14:47:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 20:47:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: grrr....an apology In-Reply-To: from "Mark Benson" at Nov 6, 11 08:20:43 pm Message-ID: > > In the stonework over a doorway in Southwark (part of 'London' south of > > the Thames) is a statement that many here should remember. It's the > > doorway of Kilkaldy's Testing Works and reads : That should be 'Kirkaldy' of course. He was one of the first people to test the strengths and other properties of various materials, and thus provide a theoretical basis for engineering. And yet few have ever heard of him. > > > > 'Facts not Opinions' > > An extension of that is an old tenant of mine: ^^^^^^ Err, you rent rooms to sayings like this? > > Opinions are permissible, but not enforceable. > Facts are indisputable. Indeed. Much the same sentiment, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 7 14:50:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 20:50:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 6, 11 12:40:53 pm Message-ID: > > Over at http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/prjhid.html, the AVR V-USB > project site, there are a number of nifty low-cost AVR projects for > various keyboard USB projects, including replacing the electronics of > a Model M with a custom board, adapting a Sparc Station keyboard, a > RS232C serial terminal keyboard, a C64 keyboard...to USB. > > I've been thinking of doing one of the Model M changes myself--it > appears to be a reversible modification. Presumably you replace the PCB in the Model M with a new one. The rest of the Model M is a membrane keyboard array (I've not traced out the layout, and it;'s not in the TechRef, amazingly, but it wouldn't be hard to do) and the LEDs. Howeever, since the PC/AT keybaord itnerface is well-docuemtned, wouldn't it be better to design a proper (i.e. without bugs) PC/AT keyboard to USB converter? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 7 14:55:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 20:55:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: from "cctech@vax-11.org" at Nov 6, 11 02:13:41 pm Message-ID: > > > The keyboard decoder chip inside the keyboard can detect if it is > connected to a passive adapter plug and switch from USB to PS/2 mode. Or it starts off looking for signals on the 2 non-power lines and decides based on what it sees there whether to go into USB or PS/2 mode. I am well aware of how passive converters can work if the device is designed for them. The problem is that we're talking about the Model M keyboard, which IIRC was designed in the mid 1980s, long before USB was thoguth of. I don't see how a passive converter could work with that keyboard (in fact I am sure it can't) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 16:55:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 14:55:23 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 6, 11 12:40:53 pm, Message-ID: <4EB7F15B.9295.17585D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2011 at 20:50, Tony Duell wrote: > Howeever, since the PC/AT keybaord itnerface is well-docuemtned, > wouldn't it be better to design a proper (i.e. without bugs) PC/AT > keyboard to USB converter? The guy offers the artwork for a replacement PCB that mounts in the Model M; he's done the programming--the job is essentially a solder- ti-togethere-and-program-the-AVR no-brainer. I can buy AT-to-PS/2 converters; some might even work correctly. Why would I want to build one? --Chuck From cctech at vax-11.org Mon Nov 7 17:32:13 2011 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:32:13 -0700 (MST) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: One particular TTL <--> RS232 chip (I forget the PN) had the really annoying problem of blowing up if it was connected to a powered-up terminal while the chip was powered down. This may be the cause of your dead UART. Beyond that I don't have any suggestions. Clint On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, David Riley wrote: > Here's a quandary that I've posted a few places, with varying success. I have a CMD CQD-220TM SCSI board (QBUS MSCP SCSI, drive and tape) which was working fine when I got it. It's now only partially functional with a few odd symptoms on my 11/23+. > > The basic problem is that the CPU (it's actually an embedded 8086 system) seems unstable, but in a somewhat deterministic way. I can have it copy the PDP-11 online utility into RAM and execute that, and I can perform a few operations on that before it bugs out (basically the CSR stops responding to requests and the utility hangs waiting for a confirmation code). The most interesting is when I try to run the "other utilities"; it starts up, but then crashes when trying to display the serial number. > > I should also mention that the UART doesn't seem to work, and I've tried both wirings (NULL modem and non) with no success. It's wired up like a standard DEC serial port (the header on the board has the same Rx/Tx and GND pins, which are all that are connected in my adaptors), so I just attached one of my adaptors to it. > > Here's the really interesting bit. After running over both the PDP and the 8086 side for a while with IDA Pro (which has been a lifesaver on many projects), it looks like the "other utilities" section actually talks directly to the 8086; the software on the board redirects the character output to one of the CSRs and the PDP and the 8086 converse that way. You get the same output as the UART. This is only true for the "other utilities" section, though; the rest of it executes natively on the PDP. > > Has anyone experienced this sort of problem with this (or a similar) card? I'm not really keen on building up a trace module to figure out what the 8086 is doing (though I have a few FPGA eval boards which would work just fine if I use SignalTap; I just don't want to go through the trouble of building it if the answer is simple). > > I'm honestly puzzled by this; it was working fine when I got it, and then I plugged it in after a move and no dice. I'm still banging on it with IDA pro. I hope it's not a busted PAL/GAL/PLA (of which there are about 20 on the board), because for the most part there's no way of redoing any of those without spending weeks on the assembly trying to figure out what they're supposed to do. The SCSI chip (a 53C90A) is a socketed PLCC, and they're not impossible to find second-hand, so if it turns out to be a problem there, I should be able to fix that by just throwing some money at it. > > - Dave > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 17:48:26 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:48:26 -0800 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 3:32 PM, wrote: > > One particular TTL <--> RS232 chip (I forget the PN) had the really annoying > problem of blowing up if it was connected to a powered-up terminal while the > chip was powered down. This may be the cause of your dead UART. Beyond that > I don't have any suggestions. > > Clint > It's not clear to me what is used for the RS-232 interface on the CQD-220. I don't see any obvioius RS-232 interface chips. There are a handful of diodes and resistors adjacent to the RS-232 port. Maybe those make up the RS-232 interface. There is no UART on the board. I have never been curious enough to try to trace the signals to try to determine how the serial interface is implemented. -Glen From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 17:55:15 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:55:15 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB7F15B.9295.17585D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB7F15B.9295.17585D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: here is a Active ps/2 usb converter that works with 99% of the old keyboads model m and equiv http://sewelldirect.com/Active-USB-to-PS2-Adapter.asp chris On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Nov 2011 at 20:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Howeever, since the PC/AT keybaord itnerface is well-docuemtned, > > wouldn't it be better to design a proper (i.e. without bugs) PC/AT > > keyboard to USB converter? > > The guy offers the artwork for a replacement PCB that mounts in the > Model M; he's done the programming--the job is essentially a solder- > ti-togethere-and-program-the-AVR no-brainer. > > I can buy AT-to-PS/2 converters; some might even work correctly. Why > would I want to build one? > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 18:18:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:18:38 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB7F15B.9295.17585D3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EB804DE.28101.1C1BEC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2011 at 15:55, Chris Halarewich wrote: > here is a Active ps/2 usb converter that works with 99% of the old > keyboads model m and equiv > > http://sewelldirect.com/Active-USB-to-PS2-Adapter.asp Isn't that the selfsame one that clickykeyboards talks about? http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298 /subcatid/0/id/124184 How about a good USB to PS/2 adapter? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 7 18:40:15 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:40:15 -0800 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB87A6F.4070808@brouhaha.com> Glen Slick wrote: > It's not clear to me what is used for the RS-232 interface on the > CQD-220. I have a vague recollection of seeing the 8-pin transceivers like the SN75155 on some SCSI host adapters, though I'm not sure specifically which ones. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 7 18:45:27 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:45:27 -0700 Subject: who won the lisp machine? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > [...] but with the 'no shipping' mandate I thought it would be more > sensibly priced. Portland has plenty of 3rd party shipping agents who will work on your behalf. The 'local pickup only' is not a serious impediment for any location within 10-30 miles of a major metropolitan area. Now if its 200 miles away from the nearest metro city, then yeah, 'local pickup only' means barely scrap value unless you happen to live close. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 19:03:54 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 20:03:54 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23E571AC-6778-43C4-ABA3-35757B702379@gmail.com> On Nov 7, 2011, at 6:48 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 3:32 PM, wrote: >> >> One particular TTL <--> RS232 chip (I forget the PN) had the really annoying >> problem of blowing up if it was connected to a powered-up terminal while the >> chip was powered down. This may be the cause of your dead UART. Beyond that >> I don't have any suggestions. >> >> Clint >> > > It's not clear to me what is used for the RS-232 interface on the > CQD-220. I don't see any obvioius RS-232 interface chips. There are > a handful of diodes and resistors adjacent to the RS-232 port. Maybe > those make up the RS-232 interface. There is no UART on the board. I > have never been curious enough to try to trace the signals to try to > determine how the serial interface is implemented. It's all GPIO coming from a parallel register (addressed by one of the decoding PALs) and then bodged up with a series of diodes and caps to vaguely resemble RS-232. It's bit-banged in the 8086 (I've disassembled that part, at least). I don't get any activity whatsoever on the port, though, which leads me to believe something is wrong elsewhere in the logic. Looking at the input line, at least, on my scope shows me that the RS-232 line is getting through (at proper logic levels) at least to the GPIO latch where it's supposed to be. One of these days it might be useful to figure out something resembling an equivalent schematic, but since it appears to be a 4-layer board (with lots of lines going under soldered-down chips besides), it doesn't look like anything I'll be doing soon. I have some new 53C90A parts on order from recycledgoods.com as well as some 53CF94s for some personal projects. If anyone is looking for replacement ones, they have an OK deal on them now (though they gouge on shipping, acting like each chip is a pound). - Dave From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 19:05:18 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:05:18 -0800 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EB87A6F.4070808@brouhaha.com> References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> <4EB87A6F.4070808@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > I have a vague recollection of seeing the 8-pin transceivers like the > SN75155 on some SCSI host adapters, though I'm not sure specifically which > ones. > The only 8-pin device on the CQD-220 is the NMC9306 EEPROM U11. I have a high resolution scan of both sides of the board here: http://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/cmd-cqd-220-scsi From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 19:07:34 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:07:34 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB804DE.28101.1C1BEC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB7F15B.9295.17585D3@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB804DE.28101.1C1BEC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: that is a the same one that clickykeyboards has just cheeper price. here is even cheaper but no shipping outside usa http://www.amazon.com/PS2-Keyboard-To-USB-Adapter/dp/B000BSJFJS do you mean adapter going the other was so uyou can put like a usb keyboard on to an old system? chris On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Nov 2011 at 15:55, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > here is a Active ps/2 usb converter that works with 99% of the old > > keyboads model m and equiv > > > > http://sewelldirect.com/Active-USB-to-PS2-Adapter.asp > > Isn't that the selfsame one that clickykeyboards talks about? > > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298 > /subcatid/0/id/124184 > > How about a good USB to PS/2 adapter? > > --Chuck > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 7 19:11:35 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 01:11:35 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB7B54C.30886.8AECB2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB7F04D.6080204@gmail.com>, <4EB820DB.7090700@dunnington.plus.com> <4EB7B54C.30886.8AECB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB881C7.9070209@dunnington.plus.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Nov 2011 at 18:18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> It looks very like the one I used to put my SGI Indy keyboard (my >> favourite) on a PC, and I did very occasionally have that issue with >> one keyboard. Another of the same model was OK, and after testing two >> or three I recall soldering a resistor onto one of the lines >> somewhere, but I don't remember if that was to fix the keybounce or >> something else - probably something else. > > You may want to try adding pullups for the clock and data lines out > of the keyboard. 4K7 should be just fine. Now that you mention it and remind me, that's what I did. It was a long time ago, and I've not had a problem since. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 19:33:32 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 20:33:32 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> <4EB87A6F.4070808@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <7AE6E209-CD92-4BDC-9C61-11549531E71D@gmail.com> On Nov 7, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> I have a vague recollection of seeing the 8-pin transceivers like the >> SN75155 on some SCSI host adapters, though I'm not sure specifically which >> ones. >> > > The only 8-pin device on the CQD-220 is the NMC9306 EEPROM U11. > > I have a high resolution scan of both sides of the board here: > > http://sites.google.com/site/glensvintagecomputerinfo/cmd-cqd-220-scsi Right, so the GPIO register is that '273 next to U15. There's a '244 just to the left of that which serves as the buffer to the outside world. I can see the bits coming out of the '244 from the UART Rx (they're inverted, but the software expects that). I don't ever see anything coming out of the Tx, but the software definitely behaves differently (seems to crash, though there's no way to be certain; the LEDs start flashing at about 1 Hz) when something is plugged into the other side, and a cursory examination of the software on the 8086 side shows that it polls to see if it can see a UART idle at startup, so presumably it's trying to do something with it. I know the thing can address the GPIO register, because it's the same register (different bits) that handles the LEDs. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 19:57:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:57:06 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB68055.25811.DC5AE3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB804DE.28101.1C1BEC4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EB81BF2.15025.21BE215@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2011 at 17:07, Chris Halarewich wrote: > do you mean adapter going the other was so uyou can put like a usb > keyboard on to an old system? Yup. Believe it or not, I have no systems that *require* a USB keyboard or mouse. One of these days when I see a need for one, maybe. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 22:14:08 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 23:14:08 -0500 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> References: , , <4EB58B51.7010703@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EB539C8.29886.F6762D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If you have a PS/2-interface keyboard that you really like, spend some >> money on a real PS/2-to-USB *converter*, not just a connector adapter >> (which most cheap ones are). > > I've got a converter which I use to connect my Model M - oddly enough > I've seen the same sort of behavior that Mark hints at, in that very > occasionally the system will seem to think that a key has been held > down, and will cough out repeat keypresses. > > I've never been able to tell if it's the converter, the keyboard, the > PC-side USB hardware, or something within Linux's USB layer. If it is > the converter, maybe it's specific only to a certain model (or models). > > The M is such a delight to type on that it's only a minor inconvenience > to me, though! It's that the M takes more power than most USB adapters are capable of providing. You need to use a better quality adapter. If you go to clickykeyboards.com, they have some suggestions. As for me, I use the same Model M I've been using since 1987. I also have a 104-key Unicomp Customizer USB and a Unicomp EnduraPro that I use sometimes. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 7 23:27:14 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 21:27:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: who won the lisp machine? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Richard wrote: > In article , > Ian King writes: > >> [...] but with the 'no shipping' mandate I thought it would be more >> sensibly priced. > > Portland has plenty of 3rd party shipping agents who will work on > your behalf. The 'local pickup only' is not a serious impediment for > any location within 10-30 miles of a major metropolitan area. Now if > its 200 miles away from the nearest metro city, then yeah, 'local > pickup only' means barely scrap value unless you happen to live close. The only thing I sold as "local pickup only" was a bunch of office cubicle walls that weighed around a ton or two. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Mon Nov 7 23:34:45 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 00:34:45 -0500 Subject: Analytical Engine Message-ID: <4EB8BF75.1080601@snarc.net> Excellent NY Times article about the British Science Museum's plan to build a Babbage Analytical Engine: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/science/computer-experts-building-1830s-babbage-analytical-engine.html?_r=1&ref=technology From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 8 00:07:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:07:44 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> References: , <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com>, <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2011 at 23:14, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > As for me, I use the same Model M I've been using since 1987. I also > have a 104-key Unicomp Customizer USB and a Unicomp EnduraPro that I > use sometimes. While I like the feel of the Model M, I really don't like the key arrangement. My favorite keyboard is an old NCR made-by-Cherry model. Function keys down the left side and (20) across the top (they manifest as shift and alt-F1-F10. Cursor pad is a cross, not an inverted T. Very smooth feel and much quieter than the Model M. Are new Cherry keyboards like this? Someone told me that they were garbage. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 8 00:22:05 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:22:05 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com>, <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > While I like the feel of the Model M, I really don't like the key > arrangement. My favorite keyboard is an old NCR made-by-Cherry > model. Function keys down the left side and (20) across the top > (they manifest as shift and alt-F1-F10. Cursor pad is a cross, not > an inverted T. Interesting. I much prefer the inverted T to the cross. This makes me wonder how much of a market there would be for custom USB keyboards that are completely built to order. You would use a web-based application that would let you take a standard layout and drag keys around, then submit an order. The keyboard would be manufactured using a combination of CNC and 3D printing. Custom key legends, if desired, could be laser-marked on injection-molded keys. Of course, they would be expensive. From tingox at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 05:35:43 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 12:35:43 +0100 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: <053c01cc9d22$5161baf0$f42530d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> <053c01cc9d22$5161baf0$f42530d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 8:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I just move the head assembly a bit, there is an interlock mechanism that > stops the heads going across the disks, but there is a bit of play in it > usually which should allow you to unstick them. However, that usually is not > enough to cure the problem because the bumpers have turned to sticky goo and > the next time the heads touch the goo they will stick again. Just to be sure: there is one "bumper"? Or more than one? (Yeah, this will be obvious once I open the thing, but it is good to be prepared) > I just use a Post-It, really anything will do, you just need to cut a narrow > enough strip to go into the gap where the bumper is. One thing to be aware > of is that the disk can be sensitive to the thickness of the paper. If you > completely remove the goo you need to experiment with multiple layers of > paper until the starting position of the heads is just right, otherwise you > will end up with the same stop-start behaviour. I was thinking that I could just stick the paper to the goo on the bumper. If not, I will need to find a way to attach the paper to the bumper. -- Rgds, Torfinn Ingolfsen From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Mon Nov 7 05:06:23 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 11:06:23 +0000 (WET) Subject: Things I should have learned in school In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Nov 2011 13:30:50 -0500" Message-ID: <01O850IGHH100027V0@beyondthepale.ie> > >I never really dealt with Fortran in university, and if I had, it probably >would have been in a Unix context. Anyone have some pointers to me on how to >process command-line switches in VMS from Fortran (I'm specifically tinkering >with f77, but I suppose f90 should do; it's a matter of environment)? > >I guess it would be good to point out that I'm essentially a total neophyte >when it comes to working with systems that are not UNIX (or bare metal, or >classic Mac OS). Best I can tell is that I need to call either a SYS$ or >CLI$ library function, but I'm a bit lost in the giant manual and Google >doesn't seem to be helping me find sample code. The "standard" (which >probably means UNIX-standard) iargc() and getarg() functions don't seem to >work, at least not without some external library linked in, so I assume >those aren't the way to go. > Others have described how to do this by updating command tables or by creating a foreign command. However, neither of these is entirely satisfactory on it's own. (I will explain further if anyone is interested.) It is possible to combine both methods to solve several problems. Create a command definition file as would be used to update command tables but instead of using SET COMMAND to update command tables, use SET COMMAND /OBJECT to create an object file representation of the command definition. This is then linked with the main programme written in Fortran or any other language. Even though a foreign command is used to activate the programme (eg cmd:==$device:[dir]file), it is also possible to call CLI$PRESENT, CLI$GET_VALUE and friends to have DCL parse and validate the command. For a Fortran example of this technique, see: http://www.tomwade.eu/software/superlock.html (Unzip SUPERLOCK020.ZIP under VMS and use BACKUP SUPERLOCK020.A /SAVE [] /LOG to extract the source.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 17:02:38 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 18:02:38 -0500 Subject: Emulex CU02 In-Reply-To: <4EB79589.2090702@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EB79589.2090702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Bah, I really should quadruple check what I type with this *wonderful* vision disability of mine... I swapped the letters and didn't catch it. UC02 is the QBUS SCSI controller not the CU02. Sorry about that. Cheers, Christian On 7 November 2011 03:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >> The PDP-11 module field guide at >> http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt says it is a SCSI disk >> controller that emulates an MSCP controller for one to four disks. > > I think you must have misread something. ?The CS02 is definitely a comms > controller. ?It emulates a DH11/DHV11. ?The manual is on bitsavers. > > -- > Pete ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Peter Turnbull > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Network Manager > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?University of York > From ttmrichter at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 04:03:38 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 18:03:38 +0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> References: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > This makes me wonder how much of a market there would be for custom USB > keyboards that are completely built to order. You would use a web-based > application that would let you take a standard layout and drag keys around, > then submit an order. The keyboard would be manufactured using a > combination of CNC and 3D printing. Custom key legends, if desired, could > be laser-marked on injection-molded keys. > > Of course, they would be expensive. > You could do the 3D printing yourself, really. Building a 3D printer isn't that expensive anymore and has a million+1 uses. -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 04:57:26 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:57:26 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6437F5AE-A126-4D37-B280-9E9F97680C4F@gmail.com> On 8 Nov 2011, at 10:03, Michael Richter wrote: > You could do the 3D printing yourself, really. Building a 3D printer isn't > that expensive anymore and has a million+1 uses. Your first issue is that as far as I understood it the material used for 3D printing isn't designed for prolonged use, only prototyping. While it might be 'adequate' I'm not sure I'd be 100% comfortable running a service based in the quality of the product. Th second issue is the case is the easy part - how do you handle the different circuit board and switch layouts? -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 03:30:35 2011 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 02:30:35 -0700 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2011 1:00 AM, wrote: > > > One particular TTL <--> RS232 chip (I forget the PN) had the really annoying problem of blowing up if it was connected to a powered-up terminal while the chip was powered down. This may be the cause of your dead UART. Beyond that I don't have any suggestions. > > Clint > Is that the 1489 line receiver? I've had many a 1489 lose its magic smoke this way when I had an 11/750... ended up socketing that chip and ordering a dozen or so extras from JDR Microdevices. From schoedel at kw.igs.net Tue Nov 8 09:12:52 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:12:52 -0500 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com>, <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111108145450.M1769@kw.igs.net> On Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:07:44 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote > Are new Cherry keyboards like this? Someone told me that they were > garbage. Cherry do make rubber dome keyboards (i.e. garbage) but also continue to make mechanical switch keyboards, and are also the source of switches for most other traditional keyboards on the market (the most notable exception being Unicomp's buckling springs). Cherry make several varieties of keyboard switch; the ones you describe sound like 'black' or 'red' (named for the stem colour). Two good places to start looking for information are http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=START+HERE+--+The+Geekhack+Mechanical+Keyboard+Guide+-+Includes+Glossary+and+Links#Cherry+MX http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 09:28:09 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:28:09 -0500 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <20111108145450.M1769@kw.igs.net> References: , <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com>, <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <20111108145450.M1769@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2011, at 10:12 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > On Mon, 07 Nov 2011 22:07:44 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote >> Are new Cherry keyboards like this? Someone told me that they were >> garbage. > > Cherry do make rubber dome keyboards (i.e. garbage) but also continue to make > mechanical switch keyboards, and are also the source of switches for most other > traditional keyboards on the market (the most notable exception being Unicomp's > buckling springs). Cherry make several varieties of keyboard switch; the ones > you describe sound like 'black' or 'red' (named for the stem colour). A lot of higher-end keyboards (again, Das Keyboard comes to mind) that offer bucking springs also offer a high-quality Cherry alternative that's (theoretically) almost as nice while being about an order of magnitude quieter. The stem colors typically indicate slightly different actions; they make several different ones with different response curves for different preferences. It's almost enough to make one want a keyboard sommelier! - Dave From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Nov 8 10:08:42 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 16:08:42 +0000 Subject: Analytical Engine In-Reply-To: <4EB8BF75.1080601@snarc.net> References: <4EB8BF75.1080601@snarc.net> Message-ID: British Science Museum plans to build a Babbage Analytical Engine: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/science/computer-experts-building-1830s-babbage-analytical-engine.html?_r=1&ref=technology I want to play! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Nov 8 10:09:04 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 16:09:04 +0000 Subject: Analytical Engine In-Reply-To: References: <4EB8BF75.1080601@snarc.net> Message-ID: Wow, I just posted that back to where came from...sorry... On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 4:08 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > British Science Museum plans to build a Babbage Analytical Engine: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/science/computer-experts-building-1830s-babbage-analytical-engine.html?_r=1&ref=technology > > I want to play! > > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > > "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save > the few who are rich." > > -John F. Kennedy > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 8 10:47:37 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:47:37 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <6437F5AE-A126-4D37-B280-9E9F97680C4F@gmail.com> References: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> <6437F5AE-A126-4D37-B280-9E9F97680C4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB95D29.4070108@brouhaha.com> Mark Benson wrote: > Your first issue is that as far as I understood it the material used for > 3D printing isn't designed for prolonged use, only prototyping. While > it might be 'adequate' I'm not sure I'd be 100% comfortable running > a service based in the quality of the product. Actually the inexpensive 3D printing processes use ABS plastic, which is quite good for production use. The extruded ABS doesn't end up with exactly the same properties as molded ABS, but it's close enough for many applications. > Th second issue is the case is the easy part - how do you handle the > different circuit board and switch layouts? That's easier than the case. The PCB is CNC milled from a single-sided copper-clad PCB. The metal baseplate for the keyboard is also milled. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 8 10:55:03 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 08:55:03 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB95EE7.7030704@brouhaha.com> I wrote about a hypothetical service to make one-off custom keyboards: > Of course, they would be expensive. Michael Richter wrote: > You could do the 3D printing yourself, really. Building a > 3D printer isn't that expensive anymore and has a million+1 uses. The only way to make the whole thing remotely practical is to do very nearly all of the manufacturing in house, with as much automation as possible. The mechanical key switches, injection-molded keycaps, screws, and threaded inserts would be purchased, but almost else would be fabricated in house from raw materials, e.g., sheet aluminum or steel, ABS filament, copper-clad FR4. I've already got two 3D printers, but they aren't suitable for making something as large as a housing for a PC keyboard. Making objects that large with a plastic extrusion printer is difficult due to the shrinkage of the plastic as it cools. With a smaller object, you can print an entire layer before significant cooling has occurred. A heated build platform reduces this problem somewhat but does not eliminate it. From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 11:49:41 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 17:49:41 +0000 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB95D29.4070108@brouhaha.com> References: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> <6437F5AE-A126-4D37-B280-9E9F97680C4F@gmail.com> <4EB95D29.4070108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8 Nov 2011, at 16:47, Eric Smith wrote: > Actually the inexpensive 3D printing processes use ABS plastic, which is quite good for production use. The extruded ABS doesn't end up with exactly the same properties as molded ABS, but it's close enough for many applications. The way it is placed by a 3D printer in spots or fine layers would make it less durable, IMHO. Moulding uses a homologous mass of molten plastic, which sets that way, to give it strength. I wouldn't trust 3D printed plastic without proof it was adequately impact resistant. Feel free to prove me wrong, I've never had first-hand experience with these systems. > That's easier than the case. The PCB is CNC milled from a single-sided copper-clad PCB. The metal baseplate for the keyboard is also milled. Milling isn't the issue. What is the issue is every one of those PCBs has to be laid out, spec'd and tested as a one-off. That's quite a costly and time consuming exercise. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 8 12:00:18 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 18:00:18 -0000 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> <053c01cc9d22$5161baf0$f42530d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <063601cc9e40$48221330$d8663990$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > Sent: 07 November 2011 11:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Micropolis 1355 disk drives > > Hi, > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 8:53 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > > I just move the head assembly a bit, there is an interlock mechanism > > that stops the heads going across the disks, but there is a bit of > > play in it usually which should allow you to unstick them. However, > > that usually is not enough to cure the problem because the bumpers > > have turned to sticky goo and the next time the heads touch the goo they > will stick again. > > Just to be sure: there is one "bumper"? Or more than one? > (Yeah, this will be obvious once I open the thing, but it is good to be prepared) > There are two, one at each end of the range of movement. However, in my experience the problem has only ever been with the one where the heads are parked. > > I just use a Post-It, really anything will do, you just need to cut a > > narrow enough strip to go into the gap where the bumper is. One thing > > to be aware of is that the disk can be sensitive to the thickness of > > the paper. If you completely remove the goo you need to experiment > > with multiple layers of paper until the starting position of the heads > > is just right, otherwise you will end up with the same stop-start behaviour. > > I was thinking that I could just stick the paper to the goo on the bumper. > If not, I will need to find a way to attach the paper to the bumper. Just some slightly self-adhesive paper has worked for me, and the bumper goo provides enough stickiness of its own anyway. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 8 12:01:45 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 18:01:45 -0000 Subject: Emulex CU02 In-Reply-To: References: <4EB79589.2090702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <063701cc9e40$7c4983f0$74dc8bd0$@ntlworld.com> Oh well, never mind. Thanks for the help anyway. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > Sent: 07 November 2011 23:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Emulex CU02 > > Bah, I really should quadruple check what I type with this *wonderful* vision > disability of mine... > > I swapped the letters and didn't catch it. UC02 is the QBUS SCSI controller not > the CU02. > > Sorry about that. > > > Cheers, > Christian > > > > > On 7 November 2011 03:23, Pete Turnbull > wrote: > > Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > >> > >> The PDP-11 module field guide at > >> http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt says it is a SCSI > >> disk controller that emulates an MSCP controller for one to four disks. > > > > I think you must have misread something. The CS02 is definitely a > > comms controller. It emulates a DH11/DHV11. The manual is on bitsavers. > > > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Nov 8 12:31:23 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:31:23 +0100 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> <6437F5AE-A126-4D37-B280-9E9F97680C4F@gmail.com> <4EB95D29.4070108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20111108193123.8670fa2d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 8 Nov 2011 17:49:41 +0000 Mark Benson wrote: > Moulding uses a homologous mass of molten plastic, which sets that way, to give it strength. I wouldn't trust 3D printed plastic without proof it was adequately impact resistant. Yes. The 3D printed stuff doesn't have the properties like moulded plastic. But it is astonishing robust and durable. The surface is a bit brittle. At $WORK we use 3D printed parts for constructing test fixtures. The problem with the surface is easy to fix: Grind and varnish. Previously those parts where CNC milled out of aluminium. But that is much more expensive. If the 3D printed stuff is porous, you can immerse it in epoxy resin to strengthen it. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 14:57:45 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:57:45 -0600 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> <6437F5AE-A126-4D37-B280-9E9F97680C4F@gmail.com> <4EB95D29.4070108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB997C9.1090708@gmail.com> Mark Benson wrote: >> That's easier than the case. The PCB is CNC milled from a >> single-sided copper-clad PCB. The metal baseplate for the keyboard is >> also milled. > > Milling isn't the issue. What is the issue is every one of those PCBs > has to be laid out, spec'd and tested as a one-off. That's quite a > costly and time consuming exercise. Do you foresee that the laying out of traces on the PCB can't be automated? The milling I'd expect to be reliable, and it would seem there's some scope for automated testing of the result (using the same 3-axis bed which could potentially be used for the printing and milling) I'm wondering if constraining designs to a row-oriented layout (which covers the majority of keyboards out there anyway) wouldn't make things a lot easier - then all you have to worry about is the spacing and frequency of keys on a given row according to the user's design. There'd be an enforced minimum distance between rows, maximum key frequency etc. (and there's potential for larger keys to span rows still, of course) which would ensure space to route PCB traces. Of course it's all theoretical, but it's nice to think about how these things might be done :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 8 11:50:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 09:50:30 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB95EE7.7030704@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4EB95EE7.7030704@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB8FB66.23356.1FD9CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2011 at 8:55, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote about a hypothetical service to make one-off custom keyboards: Why not standardize the "undercarriage", if you will? An 8-by-28 (or something like that) key PCB and overlying metal frame, where one simply snaps in the keyswitches in the positions one desires? This followed by USB programming from the host dictating what key is where. Remember that old keyboards used a 44-pin DIP as the controller and that you'd be going to an SMT package, so there are lots of I/O lines available for the expanded matrix. The top bezel could be molded in such a way to have scoring lines molded into the underside. The user could simply cut, using a utility knife, along the score lines to have the bezel match his layout. Should he desire to change the layout, it'd be a simple matter of moving old switches and cutting a new top bezel (should be inexpensive enough). Or does this sort of "kit keyboard" already exist? One thing I miss from the old George Risk keyboards is switches that are calibrated to respond to a certain force, so that function and other special keys take a bit more force to activate. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 8 16:12:27 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:12:27 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <4EB5F5A5.1000504@gmail.com> <4EB8AC90.80200@gmail.com> <4EB856B0.11187.301599D@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB8CA8D.2000309@brouhaha.com> <6437F5AE-A126-4D37-B280-9E9F97680C4F@gmail.com> <4EB95D29.4070108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB9A94B.4070209@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Actually the inexpensive 3D printing processes use ABS plastic, > which is quite good for production use. The extruded ABS doesn't > end up with exactly the same properties as molded ABS, but it's > close enough for many applications. Mark Benson wrote: > The way it is placed by a 3D printer in spots or fine > layers would make it less durable, IMHO. [as compared to molding] Actual, it turns out the fused deposition process results in material with strength, durability, and impact resistance that aren't that much different than molding. > Feel free to prove me wrong, I've never had first-hand experience with these systems. I think Stratsys has some white papers on the subject. About PCBs: > Milling isn't the issue. What is the issue is every one of those PCBs has > to be laid out, spec'd and tested as a one-off. That's quite a costly and > time consuming exercise. The layout process can be easily automated. The arrangement of the key matrix can be arbitrary since it can be remapped by a table in the microcontroller firmware, so automated layout isn't nearly as hard as the general case. One approach would be to generate XML files for input to Eagle 6, then let it autoroute. In general autorouters aren't very good, but for a simple problem like this they work fine. The software that sets up the PCB layout can also generate the lookup table for the firmware. Testing has to be done, but that can be automated also, using a simple cartesian robot driven by software using tables generated from the layout. Could be the same robot that does the pick-and-place for the keyswitches. Relatively simple software could automate the entire process, such that it would only need a minimally trained person to put the raw feedstock into the machines, transfer subassemblies from one machine to another, and assemble the finished electronics into the case. It's not a trivial project to generate the required software, but it's not rocket science either. No part of it requires any research or any development of new algorithms. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 8 16:17:07 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:17:07 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB8FB66.23356.1FD9CF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EB95EE7.7030704@brouhaha.com> <4EB8FB66.23356.1FD9CF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB9AA63.8010407@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Why not standardize the "undercarriage", if you will? An 8-by-28 (or > something like that) key PCB and overlying metal frame, where one > simply snaps in the keyswitches in the positions one desires? Because the non-alphanumeric keys don't have uniform widths, and because I want to be able to make keyboards of various overall widths per the user's desire, i.e., if the user doesn't want a numeric keypad, I don't want to have a lot of empty space where it would go. > One thing I miss from the old George Risk keyboards is switches that > are calibrated to respond to a certain force, so that function and > other special keys take a bit more force to activate. I think that would require manufacturing custom keyswitches, because the standard ones are only available for one force specification. On the other hand, if you don't want to use off-the-shelf mechanical tactile switches, there might be some way to do it. That will push up the cost. Possibly Keytronics-style capacitive switches could be an option, although I haven't looked into how well that will work using a routed PCB without routing out voids. Then you could get different forces by using different densities of foam. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 8 16:34:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:34:51 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> On 11/06/2011 01:00 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> I don't think so. That's why I use 74LVC parts for the 5V to >>> 3.3V direction, and 74HCT for the 3.3V to 5V direction, if 5V >>> CMOS levels are actually needed. Usually they aren't. >> >> If it's a 3.3v microcontroller on the other side, it's a good >> reason for selecting one with 5V tolerant inputs, I guess. At >> least you can use plain old HCT in both directions. > > Yeah, a 3.3v CMOS output will still be putting out higher than many > 5v TTL chips output. A surprising number of modern low-voltage micros > still have 5v-compatible inputs. I worked with a seriously > irritating TI DSP that, among other insults, only took 1.8v inputs > (no higher, no lower). We had 12 voltage rails on that one AMC card > (about 2"x5", highly integrated). > > We did, however, like the 74AVC4T245 for voltage translation. That > almost fits your dual-supply bill, only the AVC parts don't go up to > the full 5v. For that, your best bet would be in the LVC family; > they have some dual-rail '245 and similar equivalents (e.g. the > SN74LVC8T245). Nothing in DIP, though, so if you really wanted that > you'd have to mount them to surfboards (I really like the ones by > Bellin at http://www.beldynsys.com/; not cheap, but pretty nice > protoboards the do mount up nicely). For level conversion, I've just used a really neat chip in two designs, and it seems to work very well. It's the TI TXS0108E. It's a bidirectional converter that has separate Vcc inputs for each side. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 8 16:54:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 14:54:24 -0800 Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB9AA63.8010407@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EB8FB66.23356.1FD9CF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB9AA63.8010407@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EB942A0.16526.136123C@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2011 at 14:17, Eric Smith wrote: > Possibly Keytronics-style capacitive switches could be an option, > although I haven't looked into how well that will work using a routed > PCB without routing out voids. Then you could get different forces by > using different densities of foam. It looks as if the standard keyboards are on a 1/5-1/6 key stagger row to row. Non-alpha keys are always wider than alpha ones, so simply moving the place where the keyswitch shaft is located relative to the keycap should handle that. Eualizer bars for the wide keys, of course, will be needed in any case. If you want a good switch, use a magnetic reed switch. George Risk is still in business (some of their PC keyboards are very nice indeed): http://www.grisk.com/pushbutton/series_kblp.html Interestingly, GRI still makes the calibrated reed switch used on my old RCA Spectra 70 keyboard from the 1960's. --Chuck From a50mhzham at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:56:05 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:56:05 -0600 Subject: Analytical Engine In-Reply-To: References: <4EB8BF75.1080601@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4eb9b368.6b7dec0a.17d3.0716@mx.google.com> At 10:09 AM 11/8/2011, you wrote: >On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 4:08 PM, John Many Jars > wrote: OT: I just filled in a gap in my 16-year-old son's education by watching Buckaroo Banzai with him. -John Worfin 987 . Everything that can be invented has been invented. -- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899 NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 8 16:58:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 22:58:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB7F15B.9295.17585D3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 7, 11 02:55:23 pm Message-ID: > I can buy AT-to-PS/2 converters; some might even work correctly. Why > would I want to build one? Because 'some might even work correctly', implying that some do not. If you deisng it yourself, it's going to work correctly. And it's going to be built correctly. That's quite apart from the education you get designign and building soemthing like that (OK, you know how to do it, there are plenty who would learn by doing soemthing like that). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 8 17:10:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good Quality 'modern' keyboards In-Reply-To: <4EB81BF2.15025.21BE215@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 7, 11 05:57:06 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Nov 2011 at 17:07, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > do you mean adapter going the other was so uyou can put like a usb > > keyboard on to an old system? > > Yup. Believe it or not, I have no systems that *require* a USB > keyboard or mouse. One of these days when I see a need for one, > maybe. And I, of cource, have no machine that can take a USB keyboard... I did see a USB (keyboard side) to PS/2 (host side) interface in one of the catalogues. I think it handled a mouse as well. It was not cheak (around \pounds 80.00 I think). I have no idea idf it was 'good' or not, but such interfaces seem to exist commercially -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 8 17:26:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:26:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: from "John Willis" at Nov 8, 11 02:30:35 am Message-ID: > > On Nov 8, 2011 1:00 AM, wrote: > > > > > > One particular TTL <--> RS232 chip (I forget the PN) had the really > annoying problem of blowing up if it was connected to a powered-up terminal > while the chip was powered down. This may be the cause of your dead UART. > Beyond that I don't have any suggestions. > > > > Clint > > > > Is that the 1489 line receiver? I've had many a 1489 lose its magic smoke > this way when I had an 11/750... ended up socketing that chip and ordering > a dozen or so extras from JDR Microdevices. I doubt it. I'v got hundreds (literally) of 1489s in use here, and I've neer had one die by being connected to an active RS23 line while powered-down. And I've done that often enough... I thought the RS232 spec required that you cna conenct any pin (even an ouptu) to any valid RS232 voltage level without damaging anything, even if the device is powered down. -tony From auringer at tds.net Tue Nov 8 17:55:29 2011 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 17:55:29 -0600 Subject: Speaking of keyboards... Message-ID: Does anyone have a need for some HP terminal keyboards? Part number C3340-60201 for a 700 series terminal. I have a few that I need to get rid of. They seem to be "new in box". Location, Madison, WI 53714. -Jon From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 8 18:10:23 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 16:10:23 -0800 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: from "John Willis" at Nov 8, 11 02:30:35 am, Message-ID: I've seen a couple of blown-up 1489s through bad grounding of a cabinet (I didn't do it, it was there and I figured that out after the fact). -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 3:26 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems > > On Nov 8, 2011 1:00 AM, wrote: > > > > > > One particular TTL <--> RS232 chip (I forget the PN) had the really > annoying problem of blowing up if it was connected to a powered-up terminal > while the chip was powered down. This may be the cause of your dead UART. > Beyond that I don't have any suggestions. > > > > Clint > > > > Is that the 1489 line receiver? I've had many a 1489 lose its magic smoke > this way when I had an 11/750... ended up socketing that chip and ordering > a dozen or so extras from JDR Microdevices. I doubt it. I'v got hundreds (literally) of 1489s in use here, and I've neer had one die by being connected to an active RS23 line while powered-down. And I've done that often enough... I thought the RS232 spec required that you cna conenct any pin (even an ouptu) to any valid RS232 voltage level without damaging anything, even if the device is powered down. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 8 18:47:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:47:16 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> References: , , <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB95D14.7552.19D67C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2011 at 17:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > For level conversion, I've just used a really neat chip in two > designs, and it seems to work very well. It's the TI TXS0108E. It's > a bidirectional converter that has separate Vcc inputs for each side. And SMT, so not user-replaceable. Maybe I should use some CD4010s... :) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 8 18:56:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 19:56:06 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB95D14.7552.19D67C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EB95D14.7552.19D67C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EB9CFA6.6060302@neurotica.com> On 11/08/2011 07:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> For level conversion, I've just used a really neat chip in two >> designs, and it seems to work very well. It's the TI TXS0108E. It's >> a bidirectional converter that has separate Vcc inputs for each side. > > And SMT, so not user-replaceable. Maybe I should use some > CD4010s... :) Hey, I'm a user! ;) (they're a hell of a lot easier to desolder than the ARM chips I'm connecting them to!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 8 19:08:14 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:08:14 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB9CFA6.6060302@neurotica.com> References: , <4EB95D14.7552.19D67C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB9CFA6.6060302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2011 at 19:56, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey, I'm a user! ;) (they're a hell of a lot easier to desolder > than the ARM chips I'm connecting them to!) Yeah, but the problem is that you and I have had some practice at this and know a few tricks. That's not all users. (Just finished soldering a PIC32 TQFP-100 using a Weller TCP. Piece o' cake... ) --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 8 21:29:28 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 22:29:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111090329.WAA10411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I thought the RS232 spec required that you cna conenct any pin (even > an ouptu) to any valid RS232 voltage level without damaging anything, > even if the device is powered down. It's been a while, but I think what the spec says is that you can short together any combination or combinations of pins indefinitely without damage. I don't recall anything about connecting them to low-impedance external voltage sources, though of course my recollection of something I got through ILL for about a week twenty years ago is hardly authoritative. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 8 21:43:26 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 22:43:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB95D14.7552.19D67C9@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9CFA6.6060302@neurotica.com> <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201111090343.WAA10657@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Yeah, but the problem is that you and I have had some practice at > this and know a few tricks. That's not all users. But the only way for people who (like me) are no good at soldering surface-mount to get better is to practice. I recently worked with a colleague building some circuitry. I was surprised at how bad he was at soldering - he must have not done much of it or something; he doesn't seem to be especially low dexterity in most respects. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 21:49:44 2011 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:49:44 -0700 Subject: Teletype model 33s in Phoenix and Orange County In-Reply-To: <201111071526.pA7FQCYC021015@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201111071526.pA7FQCYC021015@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EB9F858.7080701@gmail.com> On 11/7/2011 8:26 AM, John Foust wrote: > >> >> http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/for/2687081512.html >> >> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/sys/2616025271.html >> What's the difference between a Teletype Model 3320 and a Model 33? What does it take to convert a Teletype 3320 with the telex modem to do 20 ma current loop? Bob. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 8 23:08:59 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:08:59 -0600 Subject: Radio Electronics Articles by Author Ross Ortman Message-ID: <4EBA0AEB.30606@jbrain.com> I was wondering if anyone had softcopies of Ross Ortman's R-E articles, probably from '86 or so. He owns Dakota Digital here in town, and lamented that he never saved a copy of the articles he wrote. I thought maybe someone might have copies electronic, or otherwise. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 9 09:25:59 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:25:59 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> On 11/8/2011 5:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > For level conversion, I've just used a really neat chip in two designs, > and it seems to work very well. It's the TI TXS0108E. It's a > bidirectional converter that has separate Vcc inputs for each side. I'm anxious to build a PCB that is based around a pair of these http://www.ti.com/product/sn74cbtd3384 10-Bit FET Bus Switches With Level Shifting for a level conversion app. I sampled some, although there was only the .635 pitch 24 SSOP/QSOP version available. Keith From scott at kevill.com Wed Nov 9 10:08:17 2011 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 00:08:17 +0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 09/11/2011, at 11:25 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > > On 11/8/2011 5:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> For level conversion, I've just used a really neat chip in two designs, >> and it seems to work very well. It's the TI TXS0108E. It's a >> bidirectional converter that has separate Vcc inputs for each side. > > I'm anxious to build a PCB that is based around a pair of these > > http://www.ti.com/product/sn74cbtd3384 > > 10-Bit FET Bus Switches With Level Shifting > > for a level conversion app. > > I sampled some, although there was only the .635 pitch 24 SSOP/QSOP version available. I vaguely remember looking at that series. They're 5V tolerant, but won't output 5V from 3.3V, right? Scott. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 10:35:06 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 11:35:06 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2011, at 11:08 AM, Scott Kevill wrote: >> I'm anxious to build a PCB that is based around a pair of these >> >> http://www.ti.com/product/sn74cbtd3384 >> >> 10-Bit FET Bus Switches With Level Shifting >> >> for a level conversion app. >> >> I sampled some, although there was only the .635 pitch 24 SSOP/QSOP version available. > > I vaguely remember looking at that series. They're 5V tolerant, but won't output 5V from 3.3V, right? It's just a bunch of FETs. There's a good app note by TI on using them to convert both directions, actually. IIRC it uses an open-collector arrangement of sorts, so it's not super-fast (though that depends on what your metric for fast is), but it's great for I2C level conversion. Not bad for other stuff, either. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 9 12:13:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:13:03 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB95D14.7552.19D67C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB9CFA6.6060302@neurotica.com> <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> On 11/08/2011 08:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Hey, I'm a user! ;) (they're a hell of a lot easier to desolder >> than the ARM chips I'm connecting them to!) > > Yeah, but the problem is that you and I have had some practice at > this and know a few tricks. That's not all users. Well, true. But my logic on that is, if I can learn to do it, anyone can. > (Just finished soldering a PIC32 TQFP-100 using a Weller TCP. Piece > o' cake... ) Ahh yes. Dragging? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 9 12:29:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:29:28 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> References: , <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh yes. Dragging? Yup, with the broadest chisel tip that I have. Cleanup with a bit of solder wick. Works like a charm. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 9 12:34:06 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:34:06 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EBAC79E.90900@verizon.net> On 11/9/2011 11:35 AM, David Riley wrote: > IIRC it uses an > open-collector arrangement of sorts, so it's not super-fast (though > that depends on what your metric for fast is), but it's great for I2C > level conversion. Not bad for other stuff, either. Dave, Once they are enabled (which can take max 7ns), the normal propogation delay appears to be 250ps max. Doesn't sound too slow for most of my applications. The voltage drop is mosfet switch drop(5v-4v) + internal diode(4v to 3.3v) to do 5v to 3.3v. (I barely know what I'm talking about here) @Scott: Right, the 3.3v passes through untranslated. Based on my limited understanding, this should be ok. With Vih of 5v TTL being 2v, you're good there. Over the Vt of 5v CMOS, but just under Vih. This app note explains it well. http://www.ti.com/lit/an/scda003b/scda003b.pdf Thanks, Keith From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 12:39:17 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:39:17 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> Ahh yes. Dragging? > > Yup, with the broadest chisel tip that I have. Cleanup with a bit of > solder wick. Works like a charm. Must not be RoHS, then. That stuff is awful; it doesn't wick and it always looks like a cold solder joint. Anyone had any experience doing BGAs with hot air jets? The tutorials on SparkFun make it look at least doable, and the machines are less than $200. Very tempting. - Dave From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 9 12:42:09 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:42:09 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EBAC981.9010207@verizon.net> On 11/9/2011 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> Ahh yes. Dragging? > > Yup, with the broadest chisel tip that I have. Cleanup with a bit of > solder wick. Works like a charm. > > --Chuck Do you guys use a magnifier with light for SMT work? Any brands/recommendations? Ballpark prices? Sally Beauty supply trick? Thanks Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 9 12:47:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:47:24 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EBACABC.4050307@neurotica.com> On 11/09/2011 01:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Ahh yes. Dragging? > > Yup, with the broadest chisel tip that I have. Cleanup with a bit of > solder wick. Works like a charm. Sounds good. Liquid flux? (I use a flux pen) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 9 12:56:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:56:29 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EBACCDD.5060004@neurotica.com> On 11/09/2011 01:39 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Ahh yes. Dragging? >> >> Yup, with the broadest chisel tip that I have. Cleanup with a bit >> of solder wick. Works like a charm. > > Must not be RoHS, then. That stuff is awful; it doesn't wick and it > always looks like a cold solder joint. I'm right there with you; I hate that stuff. I have a nice stock of REAL solder that should last me a good long time. > Anyone had any experience doing BGAs with hot air jets? The > tutorials on SparkFun make it look at least doable, and the machines > are less than $200. Very tempting. I haven't tried it, but I'm bound to before too long. I have a hot air machine here. I also have a small X-ray machine for post-soldering inspection of the inner balls, but haven't quite worked out the imaging end of it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 9 13:02:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:02:34 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBAC981.9010207@verizon.net> References: , <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBAC981.9010207@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EBACE4A.40608@neurotica.com> On 11/09/2011 01:42 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > Do you guys use a magnifier with light for SMT work? Any > brands/recommendations? Ballpark prices? Sally Beauty supply trick? For bigger stuff, I use one of the big magnifiers with a circular fluorescent light around it, mounted on an articulated arm. For smaller stuff, I use a Bausch & Lomb binocular microscope configured for 30x magnification, with an integral focused illuminator. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 9 13:03:49 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:03:49 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EBACE95.9050605@brouhaha.com> On 11/09/2011 07:25 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I'm anxious to build a PCB that is based around a pair of these > http://www.ti.com/product/sn74cbtd3384 > 10-Bit FET Bus Switches With Level Shifting > for a level conversion app. > I sampled some, although there was only the .635 pitch 24 SSOP/QSOP version available. Note that these aren't active translators. The "level shifting" in the 5V to 3.3V direction is just the pass FET being turned off, which means that the 3.3V you get out can be slightly squirrelly. It's generally fine for CMOS digital inputs, There is no level shifting at all in the 3.3V to 5V direction, they just pass the 3.3V signal through. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you're aware of it. What these parts do is not any different than other commonly available "QuickSwitch" parts, such as those from IDT and Pericom, and you can get those in many packages, including SO. Most of those do not have the diode internally, so this TI part does save one component, but that wouldn't excite me enough to switch from SO to SSOP if I didn't already want SSOP for some other reason. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 9 13:05:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:05:56 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:39, David Riley wrote: > Must not be RoHS, then. That stuff is awful; it doesn't wick and it > always looks like a cold solder joint. I like lead and have stockpiled enough lead-bearing solder to last the rest of my days on this vale of tears. I'll keep using it until the envrio-cops break down my door and confiscate it. Given the level of electronics recycling today and the reclaimability of tin-lead solder, I think the RoHS measure was far too premature. Even worse, the US appears to be signing onto the program... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 9 13:09:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:09:15 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBAC981.9010207@verizon.net> References: , <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC981.9010207@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EBA5F5B.29705.A3E064@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:42, Keith Monahan wrote: > Do you guys use a magnifier with light for SMT work? Any > brands/recommendations? Ballpark prices? Sally Beauty supply trick? I use three things--a 10 power binocular loupe, a small jeweler's loupe and a low-power (inspection) stereomicroscope. The latter is really valuable. But I've got old eyes, so don't take my recommendations seriously. --Chuck From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 13:17:37 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:17:37 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > Ahh yes. Dragging? > > Yup, with the broadest chisel tip that I have. Cleanup with a bit of > solder wick. Works like a charm. > > I worked with the old VGA chipsets with 208 qfp packages when they were the rage. I would pre-coat the pads with some no clean flux solder, not much, just enough to make a connection. Then squirt some liquid flux across the pads - using the bottle w/needle applicator. Position the chip, using the corner pins as alignment - and tacking them with the iron. And then I would lightly press on the rest of the pins with a blade tip, about 4/5 pins at a time. Never any solder bridges or solder-wick cleanup needed. =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 9 13:27:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:27:01 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBACABC.4050307@neurotica.com> References: , <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBACABC.4050307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EBA6385.14073.B4260A@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:47, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sounds good. Liquid flux? (I use a flux pen) Heh. Bass rosin disssolved in ethanol. Allows me to use those little chunks when they get too small to stroke a bow with. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 13:31:30 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:31:30 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBACCDD.5060004@neurotica.com> References: , <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBACCDD.5060004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <320BE1A3-BF6C-41BD-BFFF-A5704F84E679@gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Anyone had any experience doing BGAs with hot air jets? The >> tutorials on SparkFun make it look at least doable, and the machines >> are less than $200. Very tempting. > > I haven't tried it, but I'm bound to before too long. I have a hot air machine here. I also have a small X-ray machine for post-soldering inspection of the inner balls, but haven't quite worked out the imaging end of it. I imagine acquiring the machine is probably the harder part of that endeavour. :-) - Dave From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Nov 9 13:40:10 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 19:40:10 +0000 Subject: Solaris 11 downloads available! Message-ID: <201111091940.pA9Je0jj028086@ims-d11.mx.aol.com> Solaris 11 downloads available! From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 13:50:16 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:50:16 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 1:39 PM, David Riley wrote: > > > Anyone had any experience doing BGAs with hot air jets? The tutorials on > SparkFun make it look at least doable, and the machines are less than $200. > Very tempting. I wouldn't trust a hot air machine with an expensive bga part. I see the irda machines are getting cheaper - not sure as to the quality of these new machines. But that method is much preferred. I see several repair houses already using them - so a small assembly line is also possible. =Dan From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 13:54:18 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:54:18 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBACE95.9050605@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <4EBACE95.9050605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2011, at 2:03 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 11/09/2011 07:25 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > > I'm anxious to build a PCB that is based around a pair of these > > http://www.ti.com/product/sn74cbtd3384 > > 10-Bit FET Bus Switches With Level Shifting > > for a level conversion app. > > I sampled some, although there was only the .635 pitch 24 SSOP/QSOP version available. > > What these parts do is not any different than other commonly available "QuickSwitch" parts, such as those from IDT and Pericom, and you can get those in many packages, including SO. Most of those do not have the diode internally, so this TI part does save one component, but that wouldn't excite me enough to switch from SO to SSOP if I didn't already want SSOP for some other reason. Exactly. We used the QuickSwitch parts (with a 1N4148 on the power rail to drop the threshold) on lots of PCI cards to FPGAs which won't take 5v (which is most of 'em). Worked a charm. It was really more of a safety thing anyway, as I'm given to understand that most modern PCs use 3.3v signaling anyway, but since the cards were universally keyed, we wanted to be safe. Of course, the same board also had to interface to PC-104, which definitely is 5v in most implementations. The QuickSwitches came in handy there, too. :-) SSOP came in handy, because having both interfaces ended up using a whole lotta chips in a pretty small space. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 13:57:27 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:57:27 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:39, David Riley wrote: > >> Must not be RoHS, then. That stuff is awful; it doesn't wick and it >> always looks like a cold solder joint. > > I like lead and have stockpiled enough lead-bearing solder to last > the rest of my days on this vale of tears. I'll keep using it until > the envrio-cops break down my door and confiscate it. > > Given the level of electronics recycling today and the reclaimability > of tin-lead solder, I think the RoHS measure was far too premature. > Even worse, the US appears to be signing onto the program... Agreed. We only worked with RoHS because so many of our customers have to see internationally. What RoHS mostly targets, I thought, was the folks who just toss broken or outdated electronics in the trash (which, let's face it, is probably most of the people we know because no one has ever told them otherwise). What worries me more, actually, is the mandate to get rid of incandescent bulbs before a suitable alternative that's not pumped full of mercury gas is available. I like CFLs as a light source (well, some of them, anyway), but I've yet to meet anyone else who doesn't just throw them in the bin when they're dead. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 14:05:26 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 15:05:26 -0500 Subject: DEC card cage plastic rails? Message-ID: My 11/23+ is currently in a small 4-slot backplane. Said backplane came to me missing 2 of the plastic rail guides on the card cage to get the cards in properly. This isn't a terrible problem during operation for the quad-wide card I've got in there, because the insertion/extraction clamps and the backplane itself hold the card in place just fine once it's installed, but it does make the insertion/removal problem a pain in the ass. Does anyone know the part number of the rails? I've had a devil of a time finding that in the service manuals available. I'd really rather just have a better backplane, but that costs more money than I'm interested in spending at the moment. In a related note, does anyone have a BA23 enclosure they're looking to get rid of? - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 9 14:27:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:27:25 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <320BE1A3-BF6C-41BD-BFFF-A5704F84E679@gmail.com> References: , <4EB961FE.14796.1B09C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBAC2AF.6040000@neurotica.com> <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBACCDD.5060004@neurotica.com> <320BE1A3-BF6C-41BD-BFFF-A5704F84E679@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EBAE22D.6030807@neurotica.com> On 11/09/2011 02:31 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Anyone had any experience doing BGAs with hot air jets? The >>> tutorials on SparkFun make it look at least doable, and the machines >>> are less than $200. Very tempting. >> >> I haven't tried it, but I'm bound to before too long. I have a hot air machine here. I also have a small X-ray machine for post-soldering inspection of the inner balls, but haven't quite worked out the imaging end of it. > > I imagine acquiring the machine is probably the harder part of that endeavour. :-) Not if you have a friend who repairs dental office equipment for a living. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 9 14:17:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:17:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <201111090329.WAA10411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 8, 11 10:29:28 pm Message-ID: > It's been a while, but I think what the spec says is that you can short > together any combination or combinations of pins indefinitely without > damage. I don't recall anything about connecting them to low-impedance Yes, you are probably (almost certainly) right. However, since the inputs are voltage-sensivity, you should be able to apply any votlag between -25V to +25V to any othem without damage (since that's what a valid RS232 ooutput could do) even with the device powered-down. I cna't rememebr how many outpus there are on na RS232 conenctor, but it seems to me that the spec means you could short all of them together, have all but one in one state and that one in the other state without damaging anything. And 'all but one in one sate' is going to be a much lower inpedance voltage source than a single output. RS232 ports (properly designed ones) are fairly hard to damage electrically. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 9 13:53:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 19:53:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Nov 8, 11 04:10:23 pm Message-ID: > > I've seen a couple of blown-up 1489s through bad grounding of a > cabinet (I didn't do it, it was there and I figured that out after the > fact). -- Ian Oh, sure. You can blow up 1489s electrically. One other thing that kills them is a high voltaeg spike on the input, perhaps from a lightning flash near a long terminal cable. But I don't think that connecting a valid RS232 voltage to the input of a powered-down 1489 will damage it. I never has for me, anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 9 14:22:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:22:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype model 33s in Phoenix and Orange County In-Reply-To: <4EB9F858.7080701@gmail.com> from "Rob Doyle" at Nov 8, 11 08:49:44 pm Message-ID: > What does it take to convert a Teletype 3320 with the telex modem to > do 20 ma current loop? An ex-Telex machine (which this may or may not be) is likely to be a 5-level (not 8 level) machine, and therefore a Model 32 at heart. Converting that to a Model 33 would involve replacign a lot of mechanical parts. If it is an 8 level machine, then AFAIK all the 'mechancial modules' are the same no matter what interface/modem is installed (other than the fact that there are 2 keyboards, one generates parity, the other doesn't). As such. the difference is the call control unit, the electronics chassis to the right of the machine. The one for current loop operation is quite simple, and you could probably make it fromn scratch if you had to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 9 13:57:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 19:57:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EB95D14.7552.19D67C9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 8, 11 04:47:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 8 Nov 2011 at 17:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > For level conversion, I've just used a really neat chip in two > > designs, and it seems to work very well. It's the TI TXS0108E. It's > > a bidirectional converter that has separate Vcc inputs for each side. > > And SMT, so not user-replaceable. Maybe I should use some > CD4010s... :) Wasn't the 4010 superceded by the 4050 (and the 4009, the inverting version, by the 4049)? I've used them as level shifters from 12V CMOS to TTL. And since when haev SMD parts not been user-replaceable? Well, OK, if I am replacing an chip (SMD or otherwise), presumably I am not able to use the product at the same time. But other than that I don't see the problem. You need to get a better class of users :-) -tony From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 14:48:59 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:48:59 -0600 Subject: DEC card cage plastic rails? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, Forget the part number. If you can hold off for a while I can mail you a few. I think They made a purple/ red and a clear. If you don't hear from me in a month, feel free to bug me. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > My 11/23+ is currently in a small 4-slot backplane. ?Said backplane came to me missing 2 of the plastic rail guides on the card cage to get the cards in properly. ?This isn't a terrible problem during operation for the quad-wide card I've got in there, because the insertion/extraction clamps and the backplane itself hold the card in place just fine once it's installed, but it does make the insertion/removal problem a pain in the ass. > > Does anyone know the part number of the rails? ?I've had a devil of a time finding that in the service manuals available. ?I'd really rather just have a better backplane, but that costs more money than I'm interested in spending at the moment. > > In a related note, does anyone have a BA23 enclosure they're looking to get rid of? > > > - Dave > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 9 14:46:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:46:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 9, 11 11:05:56 am Message-ID: > > On 9 Nov 2011 at 13:39, David Riley wrote: > > > Must not be RoHS, then. That stuff is awful; it doesn't wick and it > > always looks like a cold solder joint. > > I like lead and have stockpiled enough lead-bearing solder to last As have I. I was lucky to pick up some NOS reels of 60/40 for a bargain price... AFAIK the major suppliers over here still list leaded solder, they just warn that it's not HoHS-compliant. I've not tried to buy any, but I've bought other non-compliant parts (like Mil-Spec connectors) with no problems. > Given the level of electronics recycling today and the reclaimability > of tin-lead solder, I think the RoHS measure was far too premature. It was claimed that hte extra energy reqired due to the higher temperature used for laad-free solder totally negates the environmental benefits of the latter... > Even worse, the US appears to be signing onto the program... My (somewhat cynical) view is that htis was broguht in at the request of large conumer electronics companies who wnated ot use a oslder that fell apart after a few years... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 9 14:57:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:57:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Nov 9, 11 02:57:27 pm Message-ID: > What worries me more, actually, is the mandate to get rid of > incandescent bulbs before a suitable alternative that's not pumped full I don't beleive there is a suitable alternatic for _all_ applciations. I liek CFLs, I was usign them long before they were commonplace. But there are at least 4 locations where I use good old filament lamps : 1) Over my lathe (I am worried about flicker, perhaps unnecessarily) 2) In my copyling stand (You can't get a continouls spectrum from any CFL that I've seen, so using them a a light source for colour photogrpahy is a non-staeter) 3) In the white light source in the darkroom (CFLs have a long afterglow that is easily bright enough to fog film. Iwant to turn of the ligth and be able to handle light sensitive materials) 4) In the balaset unit I sue when repairing SMPSUs (you don't honestly think that CFLs have the right V-I characteristic for this, do you?) > of mercury gas is available. I like CFLs as a light source (well, some And yet they mad the use fo mercury in all sorts of other things like barometers, thermometers, switches, etc. ARGH! > of them, anyway), but I've yet to meet anyone else who doesn't just > throw them in the bin when they're dead. You mean you dont' tklae them apart and estract any still-good components from the base? -tony From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 15:02:47 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 16:02:47 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: <4EBA5608.12767.7F7768@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:57 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Agreed. We only worked with RoHS because so many of our customers have to > see internationally. What RoHS mostly targets, I thought, was the folks > who just toss broken or outdated electronics in the trash (which, let's > face it, is probably most of the people we know because no one has ever > told them otherwise). > also, Telecom, Military and Medical hardware are exempted from RoHS. As such, we never had to follow RoHS in our Switching Systems, I'm sure you've heard - Lead-Free is unreliable for Hi-Rel Systems due to shorts created by crystalline growths - ie. tin whiskers. Lead was initially added in the early part of the 20th century to mitigate this known problem. Unfortunately, I just read that Servers and Network systems have recently been removed from this exemption since 2010 - oh great. Consumer items are made like junk anyway - they're meant to be thrown away :) But now we have this new recycling law which you are forced to pay a recycler to dispose of consumer items. The trashman is no longer allowed to haul away your junk. Now think what will really happens to the junk, spewn in some remote area of the woods > > What worries me more, actually, is the mandate to get rid of incandescent > bulbs before a suitable alternative that's not pumped full of mercury gas > is available. I like CFLs as a light source (well, some of them, anyway), > but I've yet to meet anyone else who doesn't just throw them in the bin > when they're dead. > > LED lamps are getting cheaper From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 15:39:29 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 16:39:29 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0879B90C-1597-41E7-907A-37CBB856646E@gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> What worries me more, actually, is the mandate to get rid of >> incandescent bulbs before a suitable alternative that's not pumped full >> of mercury gas is available. I like CFLs as a light source (well, some >> of them, anyway), but I've yet to meet anyone else who doesn't just >> throw them in the bin when they're dead. > > You mean you dont' tklae them apart and estract any still-good components > from the base? Well, I'd consider it. Most of my family and friends just toss them in the garbage, along with dead alkaline cells and all sorts of other things that probably shouldn't get very near our water supply. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 9 16:50:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:50:49 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2011 at 14:57, David Riley wrote: > Agreed. We only worked with RoHS because so many of our customers > have to see internationally. What RoHS mostly targets, I thought, was > the folks who just toss broken or outdated electronics in the trash > (which, let's face it, is probably most of the people we know because > no one has ever told them otherwise). By the time it's ready to be permanently retired, I'll probably have re-soldered every joint in my 90's Volvo "Turbobrick". First it was the relays (bad joints on the small PCBs inside of them), then the radio, then the dashboard instrument PCB. All nicely lead-free and given to turning any joint into an open or intermittent circuit. On the Turbobrick forum, there are a few guys who resolder all of the relay PCBs when they acquire a car. > What worries me more, actually, is the mandate to get rid of > incandescent bulbs before a suitable alternative that's not pumped > full of mercury gas is available. I like CFLs as a light source > (well, some of them, anyway), but I've yet to meet anyone else who > doesn't just throw them in the bin when they're dead. White LED lamps seem to have about the same phosphor lifetime as regular fluorescent lamps. I have some LED nightlights in my halls and I've observed that the output is slowly declining as they age. Given the initial cost of LED incandescent replacements, I'm a bit skeptical about the useful life claims being made. Around here, a lot of the big box stores are offering a credit (usually $5) toward exchanging a string of incandescent Christmas tree lights for the LED variety. Horrible, flickering harsh things. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 18:45:11 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 19:45:11 -0500 Subject: 53CF94-2: same as AM53CF94? Message-ID: <04F8BFDA-6834-4C0A-9E9C-2AB027D58622@gmail.com> I just bought a few LSI/Symbios/NCR 53CF94-2 chips, and I'm having a spot of trouble finding their datasheets. The web is replete with datasheets for AMD's AM53CF94, which looks to be the 10 MB/S version of the 53C94. However, that datasheet mentions that there is a 3.3v variant available. Does anyone know if the 53CF94-2 is the same as what AMD calls a 53CF94? It's used for the SCSI controllers in the higher-end DEC AXP 3000 machines, if that's any help, so I assume it's the same, but I'd rather not cook one finding out. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 9 19:02:21 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:02:21 -0500 Subject: Proper disposal of CFLs - Re: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <0879B90C-1597-41E7-907A-37CBB856646E@gmail.com> References: <0879B90C-1597-41E7-907A-37CBB856646E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EBB229D.6010600@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/11/11 4:39 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 9, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> What worries me more, actually, is the mandate to get rid of >>> incandescent bulbs before a suitable alternative that's not pumped full >>> of mercury gas is available. I like CFLs as a light source (well, some >>> of them, anyway), but I've yet to meet anyone else who doesn't just >>> throw them in the bin when they're dead. >> >> You mean you dont' tklae them apart and estract any still-good components >> from the base? > > Well, I'd consider it. Most of my family and friends just toss them in the garbage, along with dead alkaline cells and all sorts of other things that probably shouldn't get very near our water supply. > > - Dave > > > Then a hefty (refundable) disposal deposit should be built into the price. --T From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 9 21:59:23 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 22:59:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111100359.WAA03406@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I cna't rememebr how many outpus there are on na RS232 conenctor, Well, it depends on how many are implemented on the device in question, of course. :) Based on the notes I took way back when I read the spec, there are 7 pins clearly sourced by the DTE (2, 4, 14, 18, 19, 20, 24), 11 pins clearly sourced by the DCE (3, 5, 6, 8, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 22, 25), two pins (21 and 23) which are dual-function and are sourced by one or the other depending on which function they are serving (12 is dual-function too but it's DCE-sourced either way), two which are grounds (1 and 7), two which are "reserved for testing" (9 and 10), with the remaining pin (11) unassigned. > RS232 ports (properly designed ones) are fairly hard to damage > electrically. Well, that depends on what counts as "hard". From one point of view, it's really easy to damage them electrically - just connect straight to mains power; few RS232 ports will withstand that, even over here where mains pwoer is only half the voltage it is on your side of the pond. But it _is_ true that it's hard for someone not totally boneheaded to damage them accidentally. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 9 22:10:10 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 23:10:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111100410.XAA03602@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I don't beleive there is a suitable alternatic [to incandescents] for > _all_ applciations. Of course not. > 1) Over my lathe (I am worried about flicker, perhaps unnecessarily) Probably. I'm reasonably sure modern fluorescents, including CFLs, flicker at multiple KHz, not at 50/60 or 100/120 Hz. > 2) In my copyling stand (You can't get a continouls spectrum from any > CFL that I've seen, so using them a a light source for colour > photogrpahy is a non-staeter) Well, possibly excepting some special applications, yeah. > 3) In the white light source in the darkroom (CFLs have a long > afterglow [...]). Just recently I got some white LEDs. They're supposedly high-brightness, and they aren't kidding; I (conservatively) hooked it up to 5V with a 1K resistor and got a "that's _bright_" light. Then I masured and found it was pulling about 2.2mA - and it's rated for some ten times that. Running it at about 21mA, it was on the bench pointing up, and in the middle of the day there was a clear area of brightness visible on the ceiling, some six feet above the bench. This wasn't full direct sunlight, but it wasn't a cavern, either; holy crap that little bugger is bright. It was burning about 58 mW and probably turning almost all of it into light. Its spectrum was pretty close to continuous, based on a DVD used as a diffraction grating. It topped out in the high blue, a little bit before the visible violet fades out into the long ultraviolet, but aside from that it looked about as good as possible given how crude the measurement instrument was. > 4) In the balaset unit I sue when repairing SMPSUs (you don't > honestly think that CFLs have the right V-I characteristic for this, > do you?) I have a stash of incandescents which I'm keeping specifically for uses where their electrical characteristics are important, such as that. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 9 22:13:02 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 23:13:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201111100413.XAA03659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > White LED lamps seem to have about the same phosphor lifetime as > regular fluorescent lamps. You mean they're not white LEDs, but narrow-spectrum LEDs exciting a phosphor such as is used in a fluorescent tube? I was wondering how they got the flat spectrum.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 22:37:18 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 23:37:18 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <201111100413.XAA03659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> <201111100413.XAA03659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4095B61C-8240-4DB6-BF54-E795A50448E3@gmail.com> On Nov 9, 2011, at 11:13 PM, Mouse wrote: >> White LED lamps seem to have about the same phosphor lifetime as >> regular fluorescent lamps. > > You mean they're not white LEDs, but narrow-spectrum LEDs exciting a > phosphor such as is used in a fluorescent tube? > > I was wondering how they got the flat spectrum.... Yup, that's the genius behind them. They're basically fluorescent lamps using an LED as the UV source instead of mercury vapor. Though I'm told there are additional tricks they employ to even out the spectrum now as well. Never bothered to look into it. LEDs in general tend to emit an astonishingly narrow bandwidth, so getting white out of them is quite an achievement. - Dave From scott at kevill.com Wed Nov 9 23:09:49 2011 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:09:49 +0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> On 10/11/2011, at 12:35 AM, David Riley wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2011, at 11:08 AM, Scott Kevill wrote: > >> I vaguely remember looking at that series. They're 5V tolerant, but won't output 5V from 3.3V, right? > > It's just a bunch of FETs. There's a good app note by TI on using them to convert both directions, actually. IIRC it uses an open-collector arrangement of sorts, so it's not super-fast (though that depends on what your metric for fast is), but it's great for I2C level conversion. Not bad for other stuff, either. Thanks, I'm still very new to the electronics side (I'm a software guy). I have a Spartan 6 FGPA dev board that has 48 5V-tolerant I/Os (via CBT3244ABQ bus switches) and 20 non-5V-tolerant I/Os. I'm trying to figure out the easiest way to create a general daughterboard that would allow me to test/play-with a bunch of different DIP ICs (eg. microcontrollers, CPUs, ROMs, etc.) with minimal manual rewiring for each IC (remapping with constants in the HDL instead). All the I/Os output 3.3V, which is fine for most of the signals I need, but some ICs (eg. Z80+DMA+PIO+SIO, 8021) need higher. Plus being able to output 5V would mean it could provide pin-configurable Vcc for most of the other ICs. Making the requirements more tricky, some of the ICs require other supply voltages outside that range. (eg. FD1771 needs -5V & +12V; FD1793 needs +12V; 8021 needs +15V to dump; M57630 ROM needs -5V & +12V). I don't need to drive these oddball voltages from FPGA I/Os, so I don't mind wiring those manually. It would be nice if I could also use this to play with my Votrax SC-01A, but that's even weirder with minimum input voltages of more like +6 to +8V (according to the SC-01 datasheet, assuming the SC-01A is similar). So I'd ignore this one and use a separate circuit for it. So.. - a huge 64-pos (MC68000 and some microcontrollers) universal ZIF socket - alternatively a 48-pos universal ZIF and a regular 64-pos socket - a way to output 5V from all 64 I/Os - additional 5V tolerance for 16 of the non-5V-tolerant FPGA I/Os (48 are already 5V tolerant) - either additional -5V to +15V tolerance for all I/Os or a way to manually isolate per-I/O from the manually wired supply voltages above (eg. SPDT dip switches?) The FPGA I/Os do support tri-stating, but I'm not sure that would be safe. - two rows of 32 header pin sockets? to allow a flying lead to supply any IC pin - highest signal rate needed would probably be 8MHz for the MC68000, although hmm.. if I were sampling or measuring IC timing, perhaps higher for input signals (eg. 32 MHz) This does leave 4 unused I/Os that may or may not be helpful. I would be creating a PCB for this, but through-hole would be preferred as I have no experience (yet) with SMT. Thoughts? Suggestions? Or is this crazy/na?ve? :) Scott. From mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net Wed Nov 9 23:30:00 2011 From: mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net (mls) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 23:30:00 -0600 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD Message-ID: Rik, Back in 2009, you had posted on this thread that you could make HP-UX 9.10 (HP 9000 series 300) ISO's available, but the thread, basically ended there. I have been looking on and off for this software for some time for an HP 360 that I have. Thanks, Chris From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 00:46:50 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:46:50 -0200 Subject: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> Message-ID: <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> This is just a curiosity, since I'm not willing to sell my gem But how much can be considered "fair value" for this (very very very rare) Brazilian mac clone? http://www.tabalabs.com.br/apple/mac_512/index.htm Thanks Alexandre Souza (no, I'm not selling it) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Nov 10 01:40:20 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:40:20 +0100 Subject: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? In-Reply-To: <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> References: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> Message-ID: <20111110074019.GA11574@Update.UU.SE> > http://www.tabalabs.com.br/apple/mac_512/index.htm No picture of the front? /P From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 02:53:15 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 06:53:15 -0200 Subject: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? References: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> <20111110074019.GA11574@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Strange, there should be one... Some here: http://chester.blog.br/mac512.html Mine is the one-drive type. This is the two-drives. I'll update the site as soon as possible --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? >> http://www.tabalabs.com.br/apple/mac_512/index.htm > > No picture of the front? > > /P From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 10 05:15:41 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:15:41 +0100 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501cc9f9a$18647b00$492d7100$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens mls > Verzonden: donderdag 10 november 2011 6:30 > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD > > Rik, > > Back in 2009, you had posted on this thread that you could make HP-UX 9.10 (HP > 9000 series 300) ISO's available, but the thread, basically ended there. I have > been looking on and off for this software for some time for an HP 360 that I > have. > > Thanks, > Chris Chris, I uploaded the iso's to several members of this list, if you have a ftp server you can have it. And maybe you don't know bout on the HP-museum site : http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=6 you can download a lot of software for the HP 9000/300 series -Rik From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 08:27:35 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:27:35 -0500 Subject: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? In-Reply-To: <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> References: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> Message-ID: I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Brazil had really odd rules concerning computers for a while. In the 1980's, in an effort to create a local computer industry, the government banned imports of computers. This made it somewhat difficult to get the industry started. There were all kinds of clones and knock-offs being produced for a while. I don't think many of those Unitrons where made, they would probably be worth a bit of money to a completest collector, but not much to anyone else. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 08:33:27 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:33:27 -0500 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> Message-ID: <73BBEED0-9604-4AC1-854B-A2C9BC2E7303@gmail.com> On Nov 10, 2011, at 12:09 AM, Scott Kevill wrote: > So.. > - a huge 64-pos (MC68000 and some microcontrollers) universal ZIF socket Do they make those? The 64-pin DIPs are even wider than the 40-pin ones; I think it's 900mil (almost an inch). > - alternatively a 48-pos universal ZIF and a regular 64-pos socket That might be more doable; I see 40-pin ones, at least, on most ROM burners. > - a way to output 5V from all 64 I/Os You probably don't actually need to output 5v. TTL (the logic family you're looking to deal with) generally didn't actually *output* anywhere over 3v, so the switching threshold is considerably lower than that (generally 2.0v for TTL). Thus 3.3v CMOS logic (which does swing the full 3.3v) should be fine as long as your inputs can take occasional excursions above 3.3v. > - additional 5V tolerance for 16 of the non-5V-tolerant FPGA I/Os (48 are already 5V tolerant) Bear in mind that for a lot of the giant DIPS (64 pins, etc) there are multiple power and ground pins. So you may not need them all to be tolerant. > - either additional -5V to +15V tolerance for all I/Os or a way to manually isolate per-I/O from the manually wired supply voltages above (eg. SPDT dip switches?) The FPGA I/Os do support tri-stating, but I'm not sure that would be safe. Tristating a pin will not save it; all it does is turn off a pass transistor or two, and if that transistor's breakdown voltage is exceeded, it will conduct (usually catastrophically). You could use external switches (such as a CD4016 or similar, which will go up to 15v), but this one will take some more thought. > - highest signal rate needed would probably be 8MHz for the MC68000, although hmm.. if I were sampling or measuring IC timing, perhaps higher for input signals (eg. 32 MHz) Give yourself some margin and build for about 20MHz bandwidth. It'll save you a lot of signal integrity headaches. > I would be creating a PCB for this, but through-hole would be preferred as I have no experience (yet) with SMT. If you can fit it, great! Through-hole is also generally a lot more mechanically stable (I can't count the number of times I've ripped off an SMT pin header because I've been clumsy or not thinking straight; usually takes the pads off, too). > Thoughts? Suggestions? Or is this crazy/na?ve? :) It's not a bad idea; it sounds like what a lot of ROM burners/readers do, just expanded. If you're looking to program ROMs, you might want to keep in mind that a lot of older EPROMs and similar devices (even older PICs and such) use a high voltage (typically 12v) on a pin to signify that you're ready to program. You might want a way to switch that in. > Scott. SIde note: Are you the Scott Kevill responsible for GameRanger? If so, thank you, it made my high school years a lot more fun (back when it first came out, around the time of Quake 2 for Mac). If not, never mind. - Dave From scott at kevill.com Thu Nov 10 11:58:54 2011 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 01:58:54 +0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <73BBEED0-9604-4AC1-854B-A2C9BC2E7303@gmail.com> References: , <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> <73BBEED0-9604-4AC1-854B-A2C9BC2E7303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <116B1F37-FB32-43E5-AF35-0CC70163F772@kevill.com> On 10/11/2011, at 10:33 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Nov 10, 2011, at 12:09 AM, Scott Kevill wrote: > >> So.. >> - a huge 64-pos (MC68000 and some microcontrollers) universal ZIF socket > > Do they make those? The 64-pin DIPs are even wider than the 40-pin ones; I think it's 900mil (almost an inch). > >> - alternatively a 48-pos universal ZIF and a regular 64-pos socket > > That might be more doable; I see 40-pin ones, at least, on most ROM burners. I thought they did, but the pitch wasn't 0.1". Non-universal 64-pos ZIFs are available, but just a plain socket would probably do for that. Yeah, the MC68000 I have here looks to be about 0.9" wide. The 48-pos universal ZIF looks pretty common for about $4. >> - a way to output 5V from all 64 I/Os > > You probably don't actually need to output 5v. TTL (the logic family you're looking to deal with) generally didn't actually *output* anywhere over 3v, so the switching threshold is considerably lower than that (generally 2.0v for TTL). Thus 3.3v CMOS logic (which does swing the full 3.3v) should be fine as long as your inputs can take occasional excursions above 3.3v. Unfortunately, I do. For example, the Z80A (and support chips) require the CLK input to be >= +4.4V (ie. Vcc - 0.6V) even though 3.3V is plenty for all the other inputs. With the 8021, the T1, XTAL1, XTAL2, and RESET inputs are 3.8V min. Aside from that, being able to drive +5V means that most chips can be 100% mapped by the HDL with no manual rewiring. For example, I could tie an I/O to high to provide Vcc for the chip. >> - additional 5V tolerance for 16 of the non-5V-tolerant FPGA I/Os (48 are already 5V tolerant) > > Bear in mind that for a lot of the giant DIPS (64 pins, etc) there are multiple power and ground pins. So you may not need them all to be tolerant. I don't need all of them to be tolerant at the same time, right, but as a generic board that can work with any chip I insert, I cannot make assumptions on the layout of which socket pins will need to be power or ground. >> - either additional -5V to +15V tolerance for all I/Os or a way to manually isolate per-I/O from the manually wired supply voltages above (eg. SPDT dip switches?) The FPGA I/Os do support tri-stating, but I'm not sure that would be safe. > > Tristating a pin will not save it; all it does is turn off a pass transistor or two, and if that transistor's breakdown voltage is exceeded, it will conduct (usually catastrophically). You could use external switches (such as a CD4016 or similar, which will go up to 15v), but this one will take some more thought. Thanks, I suspected that might be the case, and somewhere deep in the datasheets would probably have the specifics, too. Another thought might be a two dual-rows of header pins, which would all have jumpers/straps across them (allowing flow between FPGA I/O and chip). Then for the one or two custom voltages, I'd remove the jumper and slide header pin sockets attached to flying leads manually. >> - highest signal rate needed would probably be 8MHz for the MC68000, although hmm.. if I were sampling or measuring IC timing, perhaps higher for input signals (eg. 32 MHz) > > Give yourself some margin and build for about 20MHz bandwidth. It'll save you a lot of signal integrity headaches. Noted. The FPGA will have no problem reaching those speeds and much higher. I will just need to make sure that any level shifting or tolerance additions don't slow things down too much. >> I would be creating a PCB for this, but through-hole would be preferred as I have no experience (yet) with SMT. > > If you can fit it, great! Through-hole is also generally a lot more mechanically stable (I can't count the number of times I've ripped off an SMT pin header because I've been clumsy or not thinking straight; usually takes the pads off, too). That's nice to know. It's just that it seems to be getting harder to find newer parts with DIP style. >> Thoughts? Suggestions? Or is this crazy/na?ve? :) > > It's not a bad idea; it sounds like what a lot of ROM burners/readers do, just expanded. If you're looking to program ROMs, you might want to keep in mind that a lot of older EPROMs and similar devices (even older PICs and such) use a high voltage (typically 12v) on a pin to signify that you're ready to program. You might want a way to switch that in. Yeah, the idea would be that I could place almost any type of chip there, and then put any kind of digital "host" / life-support system around it. That would make it a great tool to help with testing chips, replicating chips, measuring their timing. Or even verifying that an FPGA replication of a vintage computer works perfectly with each original hardware component.. one-by-one substituting your replicated HDL component with the real component. So many things you could do with this. >From what I remember, for EPROMs I only need to hold 12V in those cases to put it in program mode, right? The actual I/O-driven signalling is on other pins at normal voltage levels. In which case, I'd be having to allow for that anyway for the Western Digital FD chips that require a +12V source. The 8021 needs a +15V source to dump its ROM. Ideally, it'd be nice to eliminate all hand wiring. The FPGA would need to specify what voltage to use on each pin without requiring 4 I/Os per pin, since 256 I/Os would be a bit steep. Hmm, that sounds a bit like a serial DAC. I wonder if something along those lines would be the better way to do this? Or some other form of custom "I/O expander"? 64 pins, each with a selectable level of -5V, 0V, +5V, +12V, and +15V (maybe more). Or if the expander were smart enough, it could remember the "high" voltage setting configuration per pin. Since it'll only need to toggle between 0 and "V". Inputs back to the FPGA would only need to be high/low. If it's fast enough, with that kind of design change, it could be extended to any number of pins, and any number of sockets at once. The datasheet says the Spartan 6 can do "Up to 1,080 Mb/s data transfer rate per differential I/O". Interesting... Imagine the possibilities! >> Scott. > > SIde note: Are you the Scott Kevill responsible for GameRanger? If so, thank you, it made my high school years a lot more fun (back when it first came out, around the time of Quake 2 for Mac). If not, never mind. Haha, the very same! Thanks for the kind words. I'm still doing GameRanger. It now supports PC as well as Mac, and as a result has *way* more users, as you might imagine. I suppose you could thank me by helping me with this crazy plan. ;) Scott. From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Nov 10 14:15:08 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:15:08 -0300 Subject: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? In-Reply-To: References: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> Message-ID: <201111101917.pAAJHI7Y017498@billy.ezwind.net> Jason McBrien wrote: > I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Brazil had really odd rules > concerning computers for a while. In the 1980's, in an effort to create a > local computer industry, the government banned imports of computers. That is an extremely popular misconception, even among those who actually lived through the infamous "reserved market" policy. Due to the huge foreign debt crises, all imports were banned in Brazil at that time: from cars to chocolate bars. What was unique about computers was that in addition to imports being illegal, foreign companies were forbidden from making micro or minicomputers locally (either for local sales or for exports). Long established companies such as IBM and Burroughs continued to make their mainframes. > This > made it somewhat difficult to get the industry started. There were all > kinds of clones and knock-offs being produced for a while. It wasn't the industry that I would have liked to see, but since the whole world standardized on PC clones not as much damage was done as I had feared. In retrospect, I see that the lack of venture capital and the huge economic turmoil created a situation where all of the reasonably funded companies had people from outside the industry in charge. If you want to imagine how bad that can be, think of what result you would have if you made someone from Pepsi or Nabisco president of a US computer company ;-) Another negative factor was that the rules were made for minicomputers and didn't take a third party software industry into account. Copyright was only extended to software in late 1987. With nothing but piracy (importing software was illegal, but copying it was not) a clone has a tremendous advantage over an original design (like the ones I worked on). Brazil had a very weak semiconductor industry, with the bulk of it being one small factory by Texas Instruments and another one being built by Ford. The government killed that off, in exchange for promises of private investment in locally owned factories. That didn't work out well (Brazil has never had a semiconductor factory since) but at least the "no import" rule was never extended to components. But in terms of revenues, the local industry did grow from scratch to an impressive size by the end of the 1980s. A lot of companies were killed off in the increasing economic mess, so practically all that were still around when the reserved market policy ended in 1992 are still with us (another popular misconception is that in 1993 the foreign companies swept in and killed all the locals). > I don't think many of those Unitrons where made, they would probably be > worth a bit of money to a completest collector, but not much to anyone else. Even most collectors are probably not interested. As for numbers, Unitron never got the permission to sell since Apple applied government to government pressure to keep that from happening. There is one Unitron partner who likes to give interviews saying they had a warehouse with 300 machines ready to ship. I really doubt that and have indications that the actual number of prototypes was below 60. But since this was an active development project, there were many variations. One was the "Turbo Mac" which used the PAL equations I designed (not reveresed engineered as many texts claim) instead of the Apple ones (cloned through reverse engineering), as I described in http://www.merlintec.com/lsi/mac512.html There were variations with two internal floppies (like the link Alexandre gave), but most had just one like the original Mac. Some floppies didn't have the mechanical eject button, but most did. A few had black keycaps and mouse button, while others are closer to the original in color. Almost all have EPROMs copied from the Apple ROMs, but a few have an expansion board with RAM that is loaded at boot time and which runs the software that Rainer Brockerhoff was developing. All of the Unitron boards, as far as I know, have a socket for the SCSI chip (like a Plus) but it is unlikely that more than one or two prototypes had the actual chip and the software to use it. I saw one version which had an external 9 inch monitor and looked like a tiny PC. When the analog board of my Unitron machine went bad, I had to take it apart anyway and so took some pictures of the inside. You can see those and other material related to the project as the files with "unitron" in their name at http://www.merlintec.com/download/ -- Jecel From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 10 13:49:58 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:49:58 +0100 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4095B61C-8240-4DB6-BF54-E795A50448E3@gmail.com> References: <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> <201111100413.XAA03659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4095B61C-8240-4DB6-BF54-E795A50448E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111110204958.301802cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 9 Nov 2011 23:37:18 -0500 David Riley wrote: [whilte LEDs] > They're basically fluorescent lamps using an LED as the UV > source instead of mercury vapor. Not exactely. Whilte LEDs are based on blue LEDs and a fluorescent that converts part of this blue light to longer wavelengts. I sugest you go to the site of a major LED manufacturer like Cree or Nichia, donload some data sheets and look at the spectrums. Usualy the spectrum has a peek at around 450 nm, but not that narrow like a blue LED without fluorescent. Often there is a gap at around 500 nm and then a broad "hill" at 550 nm to 600 nm depending on color temperature. So the spectrum is quite smoth. Most whilte LEDs have a Color Rendering Index of 70%..80%, where sun light is 100% and incandescent lamps are close to this. There are high CRI LEDs with a CRI of around 95%. One of those is lightening my living room at this very moment. It needs 14 W and produces as much light as a 60 W incandescent lamp. It has a color temperature of 5000 K, that fits to the 5500 K calibration of computer screens much better then incandescent lamps. (2700 K or 3200 K for halogen) Incandescent replacements based on LEDs are a poor choice. Incandescent lamps work better the hotter they get. So the fixtures for incandescent lamps are made in a way that isolates as much heat as possible. This is absolutely contrary to the needs of LEDs. LEDs need to stay cool. They need a loot of cooling to keep the junction temperature in a reasonible range. They decay fast when hot and the efficieny drops. Unfortunately real LED lapms, that are constructed according to the needs of LEDs, are rare. Thats why I build LED lamps myself, as I am the geek, that I am. ;-) Ahh, low to mid power, high efficient LEDs can produce about 10 times more light then an incandescent lamp! Though, most high power LEDs with acceptable to good CRI are around factor 4 to 5. That is about the same efficiency as CFLs. There are UV LEDs. But they are not as efficient as blue LEDs and they decay quite fast due to the UV light they produce. Therefore they are not used for white LEDs. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From oe5ewl at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 14:07:48 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:07:48 +0100 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? Message-ID: Good evening to all DEC-Enthusiasts, stumbling around the internet and my own archive I wondered about the RSTS/E Distributions later than 9.6. I'd like to play with one of the last versions but nothing seems to be available. Somewhere I had read about licensing issues and the Mentec Discussion here. Does anyone know more of the current RSTS/E Licensing status? Or even has a distribution/documentation scanned? Any help with this questions would be greatly appreciated! Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 10 14:09:27 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:09:27 -0700 Subject: Speaking of keyboards... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "auringer tds.net" writes: > Does anyone have a need for some HP terminal keyboards? Part number > C3340-60201 for a 700 series terminal. I have a few that I need to get > rid of. They seem to be "new in box". Location, Madison, WI 53714. I might be interested; can you send me a pic? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 10 13:47:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:47:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Nov 9, 11 04:02:47 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:57 PM, David Riley wrote: > > > > > Agreed. We only worked with RoHS because so many of our customers have to > > see internationally. What RoHS mostly targets, I thought, was the folks > > who just toss broken or outdated electronics in the trash (which, let's > > face it, is probably most of the people we know because no one has ever > > told them otherwise). > > > > > > also, Telecom, Military and Medical hardware are exempted from RoHS. As In the UK, at least, it appers the RoHX regulations only apply when the device is offered for sale, which means that prototypes and home-constructed units are excempt [It's crazxy IMHO that Maplin, who sell mainly to hobbyists only sell lead-free solder now...]. And you can sue leaded solder for repairs on things that were oriignally made with leaded solder (like classic computers). This is one reason I much prefer things to come as solder-yourself kits. I can then use whatever solder I choose. SOme connectors, particuallrly Mil-spec types seem to only exist in non-RoHS versions (this may be cadmium plating, rather than lead). This has the curuous feater that while I, or anyone else, can by the conenctors to connect to an HP9830 pirnter port, or the input of an HP9866 pritner, and while it is perfectly legal for anyone make up cables and interaces for their own use, it is illegal for me to sell such cables (or even kits to make such cables I think). Go figure. > such, we never had to follow RoHS in our Switching Systems, I'm sure you've > heard - Lead-Free is unreliable for Hi-Rel Systems due to shorts created by > crystalline growths - ie. tin whiskers. Lead was initially added in the > early part of the 20th century to mitigate this known problem. Indeed. > Unfortunately, I just read that Servers and Network systems have recently > been removed from this exemption since 2010 - oh great. > > Consumer items are made like junk anyway - they're meant to be thrown away This doens't mean you _have_ to throw them away. You know me well enough by now to know that I'll have a go at repairing them.. > :) But now we have this new recycling law which you are forced to pay a > recycler to dispose of consumer items. The trashman is no longer allowed to > haul away your junk. Now think what will really happens to the junk, spewn > in some remote area of the woods In other words, these regulatios have almost certainly increased polution. As usual... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 10 13:53:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:53:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <0879B90C-1597-41E7-907A-37CBB856646E@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 9, 11 04:39:29 pm Message-ID: [Disposing of dead CFLs] > Well, I'd consider it. Most of my family and friends just toss them > in the garbage, along with dead alkaline cells and all sorts of other > things that probably shouldn't get very near our water supply. Yes, I ahve to admit it's common to do that over here too, for a variety of reasons : 1) The polution involved in taking them to a recycling centre is possibly more than the polution caused by dumping the device in the landfill (even if you walk or cycle, you will still exhale more CO_2 doing that than if you were sitting arround, don't give me the nonsense about those methods of transprt causing 0 polution). 2) We pay our taxes to have our household rubbish collected... 3) Some, if not most, recycling seems to be a big con. Some areas of London now have public litter bins with one side for recyclable waste (paper, cans, bottles, etc) the other side for other rubbish. I have seen such bins being empteid -- the containes from the 2 sides are emptied into the same part of the same dustcart. So people now tend not to waster their time soritng their litter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 10 14:00:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:00:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 9, 11 02:50:49 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Nov 2011 at 14:57, David Riley wrote: > > > Agreed. We only worked with RoHS because so many of our customers > > have to see internationally. What RoHS mostly targets, I thought, was > > the folks who just toss broken or outdated electronics in the trash Well, it's a pity said regulations make life difficult for people who actualyl want a lasting prodcut with soldered joints that don't fall apart or grow tin wiskers. > > (which, let's face it, is probably most of the people we know because > > no one has ever told them otherwise). My friends are moslty like me. They repair old electronics, and if they can't do that they extract every useful bit from the device. > White LED lamps seem to have about the same phosphor lifetime as Right... > regular fluorescent lamps. I have some LED nightlights in my halls > and I've observed that the output is slowly declining as they age. I see, so the claim that I've seen made several times that 'LEDs don't burn out' is downright false (not that I ever thought it was true, after all, I've replaced plenty of dead LEDs over the years...) > Around here, a lot of the big box stores are offering a credit > (usually $5) toward exchanging a string of incandescent Christmas > tree lights for the LED variety. Horrible, flickering harsh things. I haev used LEDs in Newtonsday decorations, but running them off a DC supply (so they don;'t flicker). The reson was that LEDs are easy to drive from logic circuitry, so I'v ehad Newtonsday decorations controller by a PDP11, PERQ, HP41, HP71 and HP48 over the years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 10 14:06:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:06:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <201111100359.WAA03406@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 9, 11 10:59:23 pm Message-ID: > > RS232 ports (properly designed ones) are fairly hard to damage > > electrically. > > Well, that depends on what counts as "hard". From one point of view, > it's really easy to damage them electrically - just connect straight to > mains power; few RS232 ports will withstand that, even over here where > mains pwoer is only half the voltage it is on your side of the pond. And hoe many mains leads do you have with DB25 conenctors on the end :-) Of ocurse if you want ot damage an RS232 port you cna do it. My point was that if you miswire the cable, or connect soemthing else with a DB25 or DE9 conenctor to it, it's unlikely to damage the RS232 port (it may damage the otehr device, particualrly if it's expecting TTL level signals). If you are conencitng 2 'RS232' devices together and you miswire the cable it's unlikely to damage anything (in fact the spec implies it mustn't damage anything). Powering down one devi9ce leaving the other powered up shoud do no damage either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 10 14:14:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:14:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <201111100410.XAA03602@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 9, 11 11:10:10 pm Message-ID: > > > I don't beleive there is a suitable alternatic [to incandescents] for > > _all_ applciations. > > Of course not. > > > 1) Over my lathe (I am worried about flicker, perhaps unnecessarily) > > Probably. I'm reasonably sure modern fluorescents, including CFLs, > flicker at multiple KHz, not at 50/60 or 100/120 Hz. > > > 2) In my copyling stand (You can't get a continouls spectrum from any > > CFL that I've seen, so using them a a light source for colour > > photogrpahy is a non-staeter) > > Well, possibly excepting some special applications, yeah. The problem with 'apart from some special applications' is that the regulations don't seem to allow for special applications. Well, actually, I think they do in that the ban is only on selling incandescent light bulbs for domestic lighting, but it means they're not easy to find. Since 'white' LEDs are phosphor-bnased too, they presumably have a strange spectrum too, and are not suitable as a light source for colour (film) photography. > > > 3) In the white light source in the darkroom (CFLs have a long > > afterglow [...]). > > Just recently I got some white LEDs. They're supposedly > high-brightness, and they aren't kidding; I (conservatively) hooked it > up to 5V with a 1K resistor and got a "that's _bright_" light. Then I A couple of years back I needed a simple stroboscope [1]. I decided to use white LEDs as a light source and extracted some from a cheap light from the local 'pound store' (said light contaiend 24 such LEDs, I've never seen them at anything like that price in an electronics catalogue). Anyaay, I took one of the LEDs, touche the appropraite wire on one side of a 9V battery and completed the circuit by holding the other ELD wire in one hand touching the other battery terminal with my other hand. In other words my had-to-had resistance was the LED series reisotr. The result was a definite glow from the LED. Not bright, but certainly visible. [1] This was for a classic-computer applciation. I'd rewound the motors in an HP9125A plotter (for the 9100 calculator) and wanted to check the voltage-seped characteristics. > Its spectrum was pretty close to continuous, based on a DVD used as a Interesting. That might negate what I said above. I am going to have to try thenm as a photographic light source. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 10 14:18:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:18:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4095B61C-8240-4DB6-BF54-E795A50448E3@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 9, 11 11:37:18 pm Message-ID: > > You mean they're not white LEDs, but narrow-spectrum LEDs exciting a > > phosphor such as is used in a fluorescent tube? > > > > I was wondering how they got the flat spectrum.... > > Yup, that's the genius behind them. They're basically fluorescent > lamps using an LED as the UV source instead of mercury vapor. Though I was under the impression that some (most?) of them are actually a blue LED and a yellow phosphor in the encapsulant. Certainly shining a UV light source (a UV LED) on them gives a yellow glow. One of the data sheets I looked at when designing my stroboscope implied that as the blue LED had a faster response time than the phosphor, there could be a colour shift if oyu run them off a sufficiently high-frequency source. > I'm told there are additional tricks they employ to even out the > spectrum now as well. Never bothered to look into it. Interesting. I wonder how continuous it really is. > > LEDs in general tend to emit an astonishingly narrow bandwidth, so Which is not suprising when you consider how they work. > getting white out of them is quite an achievement. Well, it would be if they'd managed it without cheating (using the phosphor) :-) -tony From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Nov 10 15:20:13 2011 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:20:13 -0800 Subject: White LEDs (was: Re: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?)) In-Reply-To: <20111110204958.301802cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> <201111100413.XAA03659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4095B61C-8240-4DB6-BF54-E795A50448E3@gmail.com> <20111110204958.301802cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <175A133B-9F0F-4C3D-99DC-170D3E5FD514@mainecoon.com> On 10 Nov 2011, at 11:49 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Not exactely. Whilte LEDs are based on blue LEDs and a fluorescent that > converts part of this blue light to longer wavelengts. I sugest you go > to the site of a major LED manufacturer like Cree or Nichia, donload > some data sheets and look at the spectrums. Usualy the spectrum has a > peek at around 450 nm, but not that narrow like a blue LED without > fluorescent. Often there is a gap at around 500 nm and then a broad > "hill" at 550 nm to 600 nm depending on color temperature. So the > spectrum is quite smoth. I wouldn't be surprised to find that individual white emitters function in that fashion. > > Most whilte LEDs have a Color Rendering Index of 70%..80%, where > sun light is 100% and incandescent lamps are close to this. There are > high CRI LEDs with a CRI of around 95%. One of those is lightening my > living room at this very moment. It needs 14 W and produces as much > light as a 60 W incandescent lamp. It has a color temperature of 5000 K, > that fits to the 5500 K calibration of computer screens much better > then incandescent lamps. (2700 K or 3200 K for halogen) I have a bunch (on the order of 100) CREE LR6 modules installed which have a 92+ CRI (not that CRI means much). The visible spectrum seems quite flat and I've been very pleased with the results with color film. I'd sort of expected that these things worked as suggested -- by irradiating a phosphor screen -- but I had one arrive damaged in shipment that put an end to that notion. What I thought was a phosphor screen was just a diffusor lens; the guts of the thing was a mix of colored SMD LEDs mixed with white XR-Es, so for (these admittedly bulky) things they seem to have smoothed the spectrum by playing with the emitter mix. > > Incandescent replacements based on LEDs are a poor choice. Incandescent > lamps work better the hotter they get. So the fixtures for incandescent > lamps are made in a way that isolates as much heat as possible. This is > absolutely contrary to the needs of LEDs. LEDs need to stay cool. They > need a loot of cooling to keep the junction temperature in a reasonible > range. They decay fast when hot and the efficieny drops. Unfortunately > real LED lapms, that are constructed according to the needs of LEDs, > are rare. Thats why I build LED lamps myself, as I am the geek, that I > am. ;-) The LR6 modules are huge, bulky things that are a fairly tight fit into 6" IC cans with most of the bulk being heat sink. Despite the 50K hour lifetime on the things I was worried about temperature rise, but stuffing a thermocouple into the housing showed a delta of only a few degrees C over ambient regardless of power setting (the things are dimmable as well). Bottom line is you can get LED replacements for certain classes of incandescent lighting that has good color performance, but it's not cheap. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 10 15:41:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:41:27 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 9, 11 02:50:49 pm, Message-ID: <4EBBD487.5414.12E1AED@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2011 at 20:00, Tony Duell wrote: > I see, so the claim that I've seen made several times that 'LEDs don't > burn out' is downright false (not that I ever thought it was true, > after all, I've replaced plenty of dead LEDs over the years...) I'm sure that after hundreds of thousands of hours, a white LED will still have a visible glow, even though visible light output will have dimmed and color-shifted away from what it used to be. Re: spectrum--I seem to recall reading a couple of months ago in one of the trade rags that someone (Cree?) is putting red LEDs together on the same fixture as their high-power white ones. > I haev used LEDs in Newtonsday decorations, but running them off a DC > supply (so they don;'t flicker). The reson was that LEDs are easy to > drive from logic circuitry, so I'v ehad Newtonsday decorations > controller by a PDP11, PERQ, HP41, HP71 and HP48 over the years. I've run mine off a full-wave bridge and that seems to handle the flickering, but the light quality is still very harsh. I'm used to the warm glow of incandescents, not the ultra-pure point-source colors of LEDs. They're supposed to remind you of candles, after all, not someone doing TIG welding. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 10 16:01:28 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:01:28 +0100 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: <201111100410.XAA03602@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20111110230128.a04da3ea.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:14:12 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Since 'white' LEDs are phosphor-bnased too, they presumably have a > strange spectrum too, and are not suitable as a light source for colour > (film) photography. Depends on the LED. LED lights for macro photography are quite common these days. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 10 16:09:10 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:09:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4EBBD487.5414.12E1AED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 9, 11 02:50:49 pm, <4EBBD487.5414.12E1AED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Nov 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've run mine off a full-wave bridge and that seems to handle the > flickering, but the light quality is still very harsh. I'm used to > the warm glow of incandescents, not the ultra-pure point-source > colors of LEDs. They're supposed to remind you of candles, after > all, not someone doing TIG welding. > Chuck, you might want to look into "warm white" LEDs. The ones I've used for edge lit panels appear to have a color temp right around 2400-2600K. If memory serves a 40W incandescent bulb is right around 2400K. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 10 16:29:50 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:29:50 +0100 Subject: White LEDs (was: Re: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?)) In-Reply-To: <175A133B-9F0F-4C3D-99DC-170D3E5FD514@mainecoon.com> References: <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> <201111100413.XAA03659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4095B61C-8240-4DB6-BF54-E795A50448E3@gmail.com> <20111110204958.301802cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <175A133B-9F0F-4C3D-99DC-170D3E5FD514@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20111110232950.de5f3d81.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:20:13 -0800 Christian Kennedy wrote: > I'd sort of expected that these things worked as suggested -- by irradiating a phosphor screen -- but I had one arrive damaged in shipment that put an end to that notion. What I thought was a phosphor screen was just a diffusor lens; the guts of the thing was a mix of colored SMD LEDs mixed with white XR-Es, so for (these admittedly bulky) things they seem to have smoothed the spectrum by playing with the emitter mix. Thats a common way to get a good CRI. What you describe as "phosphor screen" is called "remote phosphor". > The LR6 modules are huge, bulky things Huge and bulky = large surface = good cooling... > Bottom line is you can get LED replacements for certain classes of > incandescent lighting that has good color performance, but it's > not cheap. Yes. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 10 17:28:25 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:28:25 -0700 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EBC5E19.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/10/2011 12:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: We pay our taxes to have our household rubbish collected... > > 3) Some, if not most, recycling seems to be a big con. Some areas of > London now have public litter bins with one side for recyclable waste > (paper, cans, bottles, etc) the other side for other rubbish. I have seen > such bins being empteid -- the containes from the 2 sides are emptied > into the same part of the same dustcart. So people now tend not to waster > their time soritng their litter. After watching the 1st season of Dr Who, it is not even safe to put out the trash over there. :) > > -tony > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 10 17:39:26 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:39:26 -0500 Subject: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? In-Reply-To: References: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> Message-ID: <4EBC60AE.8040303@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/11/11 9:27 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Brazil had really odd rules > concerning computers for a while. In the 1980's, in an effort to create a > local computer industry, the government banned imports of computers. This > made it somewhat difficult to get the industry started. There were all > kinds of clones and knock-offs being produced for a while. > A watered down form persists in the form of high import tariffs -- a laudable and necessary idea, except for loopholes which Dell and such seem to exploit. Brazil doesn't have a corresponding ban on foreign-owned local manufacturing, or if it does, it's incompletely, ahem, enforced. Also, these policies have not helped the Windows problem: Brazil is one of the worst-infested countries on the planet, by numbers (and hence also in terms of malware and the black hat industry that has grown around it there). --T > I don't think many of those Unitrons where made, they would probably be > worth a bit of money to a completest collector, but not much to anyone else. > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 10 17:51:58 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:51:58 -0500 Subject: City recycling - Re: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EBC639E.6080000@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/11/11 2:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [Disposing of dead CFLs] > >> Well, I'd consider it. Most of my family and friends just toss them >> in the garbage, along with dead alkaline cells and all sorts of other >> things that probably shouldn't get very near our water supply. > > Yes, I ahve to admit it's common to do that over here too, for a variety > of reasons : > > 1) The polution involved in taking them to a recycling centre is possibly > more than the polution caused by dumping the device in the landfill (even > if you walk or cycle, you will still exhale more CO_2 doing that than if > you were sitting arround, don't give me the nonsense about those methods > of transprt causing 0 polution). > > 2) We pay our taxes to have our household rubbish collected... > This implies you should vote be voting for the candidate who will set up a household recycling service (we have one in Toronto, but it has been threatened by the latest lumpen-Mayor). If neither candidate offers the policy you want -- well, isn't that an interesting problem... --T > 3) Some, if not most, recycling seems to be a big con. Some areas of > London now have public litter bins with one side for recyclable waste > (paper, cans, bottles, etc) the other side for other rubbish. I have seen > such bins being empteid -- the containes from the 2 sides are emptied > into the same part of the same dustcart. So people now tend not to waster > their time soritng their litter. > > -tony > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 10 18:06:57 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 00:06:57 +0000 Subject: WTD -- AMD Am95C60 datasheet + register map Message-ID: <4EBC6721.9090601@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have a full datasheet for the AMD Am95C60 graphics controller LSI? (also known as the Quad Pixel Dataflow Manager, or QPDM) I'm trying to reverse engineer the firmware in a piece of test-and-measurement gear, and the most I've been able to find for this chip is an abridged preliminary datasheet, which is pretty useless (lists the registers, but not what the various bits do, and contains no command list for the processor core). Basically, the box has some hidden features which I need to access to do a re-calibration. The manufacturer has binned all the documentation (quote from their tech guy: "Omigod, we last made those in, like, 1992... I can't believe those things are still around!") so no help there... :( Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 10 18:40:00 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:40:00 -0800 Subject: WTD -- AMD Am95C60 datasheet + register map In-Reply-To: <4EBC6721.9090601@philpem.me.uk> References: <4EBC6721.9090601@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4EBC6EE0.7070403@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/11 4:06 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone have a full datasheet for the AMD Am95C60 graphics controller LSI? (also known as the Quad Pixel Dataflow Manager, or QPDM) > > I have the data book. I'll see about getting it uploaded to bitsavers. I was part of a team that developed a VME and QBus board set when at AED that used it. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 10 18:56:13 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 00:56:13 +0000 Subject: WTD -- AMD Am95C60 datasheet + register map In-Reply-To: <4EBC6EE0.7070403@bitsavers.org> References: <4EBC6721.9090601@philpem.me.uk> <4EBC6EE0.7070403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4EBC72AD.2020901@philpem.me.uk> On 11/11/11 00:40, Al Kossow wrote: > I have the data book. I'll see about getting it uploaded to bitsavers. Fantastic! Thanks! :) :) Now I just have to figure out the address decoder gate array and the keyboard controller MCU... such fun. No datasheets for those, they're custom parts :( > I was part of a team that developed a VME and QBus board set when at AED > that used it. Pardon my ignorance, but... what's AED? Thanks again, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 10 19:12:22 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:12:22 -0800 Subject: WTD -- AMD Am95C60 datasheet + register map In-Reply-To: <4EBC72AD.2020901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4EBC6721.9090601@philpem.me.uk> <4EBC6EE0.7070403@bitsavers.org> <4EBC72AD.2020901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4EBC7676.8090007@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/11 4:56 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Pardon my ignorance, but... what's AED? > Advanced Electronic Design in Sunnyvale. They built disk controllers and graphics terminals up through the mid 1980's. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 20:12:45 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:12:45 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> RS232 ports (properly designed ones) are fairly hard to damage >>> electrically. >> >> Well, that depends on what counts as "hard". From one point of view, >> it's really easy to damage them electrically - just connect straight to >> mains power; few RS232 ports will withstand that, even over here where >> mains pwoer is only half the voltage it is on your side of the pond. > > And hoe many mains leads do you have with DB25 conenctors on the end :-) At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 10 20:25:38 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:25:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111110182416.B61101@shell.lmi.net> > > And hoe many mains leads do you have with DB25 conenctors on the end :-) On Thu, 10 Nov 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to > every alternate pin on a DB25. My serial killer only provides power to pins 1 through 8 and 20. Therefore, it is a DB9. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Nov 10 20:26:32 2011 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:26:32 -0500 Subject: NIBL - Dr Dobbs article Message-ID: <8D2D3CCA-B5DF-4172-A595-E03974E9A5C7@colourfull.com> Does anyone have a scan of the Dr Dobbs V1 #10 article on the NIBL for the sc/mp? Or can anyone point me to a link of the article or mag? Thanks Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 20:28:20 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:28:20 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a BNC plug on the other end. - Dave From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 10 20:41:08 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:41:08 -0500 Subject: NIBL - Dr Dobbs article In-Reply-To: <8D2D3CCA-B5DF-4172-A595-E03974E9A5C7@colourfull.com> References: <8D2D3CCA-B5DF-4172-A595-E03974E9A5C7@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4EBC8B44.4050802@snarc.net> > Does anyone have a scan of the Dr Dobbs V1 #10 article on the NIBL for the sc/mp? > Or can anyone point me to a link of the article or mag? It's in our computer museum library here in NJ. I can get it this Sunday. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 10 20:49:00 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:49:00 -0500 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/11/11 9:28 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 10, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. > > Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a BNC plug on the other end. > Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? For a group usually obsessed with FIXING things, it's a strange obsession... like the doctor who studies serial killers in his spare time... --T > - Dave > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 10 21:02:11 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:02:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains >>> voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with >> a BNC plug on the other end. > Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? The EtherKiller I find funny, because I don't really expect any significant number of them actually exist. Sridhar's remark, on the other hand, I do find somewhat disturbing. Perhaps I'm just falling for a good deadpan act, but if he really does have that thing it does bother me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 10 21:26:14 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:26:14 -0500 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EBC95D6.50805@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/11/11 10:02 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains >>>> voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >>> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with >>> a BNC plug on the other end. >> Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? > > The EtherKiller I find funny, because I don't really expect any > significant number of them actually exist. > > Sridhar's remark, on the other hand, I do find somewhat disturbing. > Perhaps I'm just falling for a good deadpan act, but if he really does > have that thing it does bother me. Yeah the deadpan came through for me too. It was the kind of remark that leaves an awkward silence one is tempted to fill with, "...oh. So what do you use *that* for?" --T > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 10 21:50:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:50:32 -0500 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBC95D6.50805@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EBC95D6.50805@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EBC9B88.40001@neurotica.com> On 11/10/2011 10:26 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains >>>>> voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >>>> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with >>>> a BNC plug on the other end. >>> Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? >> >> The EtherKiller I find funny, because I don't really expect any >> significant number of them actually exist. >> >> Sridhar's remark, on the other hand, I do find somewhat disturbing. >> Perhaps I'm just falling for a good deadpan act, but if he really does >> have that thing it does bother me. > > Yeah the deadpan came through for me too. It was the kind of remark that > leaves an awkward silence one is tempted to fill with, "...oh. So what > do you use *that* for?" I know Sridhar well; he is one of my best friends. I firmly believe that he DOES indeed have such a device. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 22:16:06 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:16:06 -0500 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EBCA186.90704@gmail.com> Mouse wrote: >>>> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains >>>> voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >>> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with >>> a BNC plug on the other end. >> Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? > > The EtherKiller I find funny, because I don't really expect any > significant number of them actually exist. > > Sridhar's remark, on the other hand, I do find somewhat disturbing. > Perhaps I'm just falling for a good deadpan act, but if he really does > have that thing it does bother me. I do indeed have such a thing. Rest assured I've only used it for... disposing... of non-working hardware that belongs to me. I would *never* leave it lying around for someone of lesser knowledge to play with. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 23:14:39 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:14:39 -0600 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EBCAF3F.60200@gmail.com> David Riley wrote: > On Nov 10, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. > > Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a BNC plug on the other end. I remember my NCR Tower had a BNC plug on the back which was wired into the PSU as part of the power-fail circuitry - I suspect that if wired up to an Ethernet then interesting things would happen... cheers Jules From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 10 23:39:54 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:39:54 -0800 Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/10/11 6:28 PM, "David Riley" wrote: > On Nov 10, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every >> alternate pin on a DB25. > > Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a BNC > plug on the other end. > > - Dave > Somewhere around here I have a mains to RJ45 cord :) someone once bet me that I couldn't kill a 10 base t NIC without resorting to high-voltage (stungun type voltage) I won that bet :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 00:34:16 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:34:16 -0200 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <33573C7B7206470B8CE0E503F02418B0@portajara> > At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to > every alternate pin on a DB25. Are you used to torture serial ports? Do you have snuff movies of then being tortured? Oh, it makes me so h*rny! ;oD From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 00:35:10 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:35:10 -0200 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3D0A3E864A884B5EA4472DD8142B755D@portajara> > Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? Probably :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 00:35:43 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:35:43 -0200 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EBC95D6.50805@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3A8A7404731D4D54B64F37B141FD6081@portajara> > Yeah the deadpan came through for me too. It was the kind of remark that > leaves an awkward silence one is tempted to fill with, "...oh. So what > do you use *that* for?" "kill ethernet ports" :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 00:36:49 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:36:49 -0200 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EBC95D6.50805@telegraphics.com.au> <4EBC9B88.40001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0773F8A6610C44538C29E18CB8AAF48A@portajara> > I know Sridhar well; he is one of my best friends. I firmly believe > that he DOES indeed have such a device. BTW, it is always nice to remember: Today Sridhar gets older...Happy birthday, man! :oD From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Nov 11 00:42:05 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:42:05 +0100 Subject: White LEDs (was: Re: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?)) In-Reply-To: <20111110232950.de5f3d81.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> <201111100413.XAA03659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4095B61C-8240-4DB6-BF54-E795A50448E3@gmail.com> <20111110204958.301802cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <175A133B-9F0F-4C3D-99DC-170D3E5FD514@mainecoon.com> <20111110232950.de5f3d81.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20111111074205.srf9zh0v4goc8k8g@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Jochen Kunz : >> The LR6 modules are huge, bulky things > Huge and bulky = large surface = good cooling... Thanks for that. Most people don't notice how hot those things get. So cooling is important ! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 11 00:55:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 01:55:04 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <33573C7B7206470B8CE0E503F02418B0@portajara> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <33573C7B7206470B8CE0E503F02418B0@portajara> Message-ID: <35012878-375C-44C3-A8BC-94B29662F047@neurotica.com> On Nov 11, 2011, at 1:34 AM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. > > Are you used to torture serial ports? Do you have snuff movies of then being tortured? Oh, it makes me so h*rny! ;oD ROFL!!!!!! -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From tingox at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 16:47:03 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:47:03 +0100 Subject: Micropolis 1355 disk drives In-Reply-To: <063601cc9e40$48221330$d8663990$@ntlworld.com> References: <046601cc9b96$8f42ef70$adc8ce50$@ntlworld.com> <04f001cc9c7c$10a99a10$31fcce30$@ntlworld.com> <4EB6D4B3.2020900@verizon.net> <053c01cc9d22$5161baf0$f42530d0$@ntlworld.com> <063601cc9e40$48221330$d8663990$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Update: I can now report that the "bumper fix" was a success. After opening the drive, it took a while before I realized that the sticky bumpers are *inside* the head assembly. Also, when I moved the head with my fingers, there was very little resistance, almost unnoticeable. I was afraid that there was something else wrong with the drive. But I cut a piece of post-it paper and put it in between the bumper and the head part. Sure enough, when I next powered up the drive, the head moved (before it hadn't moved when powered up). Put the top cover on, reassembled the drive and put it back into the machine. Started it up, and it booted straight into Sintran (SINTRAN III - VSX / 500 K to be precise). Yes! Thanks for all the advice and encouragement. Much, much appreciated. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen Now caretaker / owner of *two* working ND machines From mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net Thu Nov 10 23:28:41 2011 From: mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net (mls) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:28:41 -0600 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD In-Reply-To: <002501cc9f9a$18647b00$492d7100$@xs4all.nl> References: <002501cc9f9a$18647b00$492d7100$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <97AE2285-B4E7-47B4-B0A7-FFD737906948@comcast.net> On Nov 10, 2011, at 5:15 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> Namens mls >> Verzonden: donderdag 10 november 2011 6:30 >> Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Onderwerp: Re: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD >> >> Rik, >> >> Back in 2009, you had posted on this thread that you could make HP-UX 9.10 > (HP >> 9000 series 300) ISO's available, but the thread, basically ended there. > I have >> been looking on and off for this software for some time for an HP 360 that > I >> have. >> >> Thanks, >> Chris > > Chris, > > I uploaded the iso's to several members of this list, if you have a ftp > server you can have it. > And maybe you don't know bout on the HP-museum site : > http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?swc=6 > you can download a lot of software for the HP 9000/300 series > > -Rik > > Rik, Thank you for responding so quickly. I have seen the HP Computer Museum pages and I have found them to be most helpful with documentation that would otherwise be unavailable. I will have to check out their software as well, although at this time I do not have the 9122 drive they specify to use the teledisk images. -Chris From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Nov 11 02:43:32 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:43:32 +0000 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:49 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > > Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? > > For a group usually obsessed with FIXING things, it's a strange obsession... > like the doctor who studies serial killers in his spare time... We got tired of arguing with a certain company about certain board which we new were good, because replacing them made the things work again. We made sure that when they went back, they didn't work anymore. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From ttmrichter at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 02:55:06 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:55:06 +0800 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 November 2011 04:07, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > Or even has a > distribution/documentation scanned? Any help with this questions would be > greatly appreciated! > I have a set of RSTS 10 images, including an installation tape, lying around here somewhere, but I've never tried them out. -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. From jonas at otter.se Fri Nov 11 04:44:00 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:44:00 +0100 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Well, that depends on what counts as "hard". From one point of view, > it's really easy to damage them electrically - just connect straight > to > mains power; few RS232 ports will withstand that, even over here > where > mains pwoer is only half the voltage it is on your side of the pond. > But it _is_ true that it's hard for someone not totally boneheaded to > damage them accidentally. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > If you are hell-bent on killing something, mains power applied between appropriate terminals will usually do the job, even for otherwise robust devices such as 2N3055s or big speakers. Unless of course it's a washing machine, in which case a hand grenade or dynamite would be more useful. Or 10kV from the local substation. /Jonas From sytsezelf at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 04:52:24 2011 From: sytsezelf at gmail.com (sytse van slooten) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:52:24 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 Message-ID: Today, 11-11-11, seems like a nice day to announce the availability of yet another PDP-11 implementation in VHDL. I have created a website for my project, PDP2011 ? a re-creation of the well known series of PDP-11 computer systems in VHDL. After nearly four years of work, the project is almost finished; you can run a complete Unibus PDP-11 system with console, disks and other peripherals on a simple low cost FPGA development board. Original operating system software, like V5-V7 versions of Unix and BSD 2.11 work. I would like to invite you to come to http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ Regards Sytse From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Nov 11 05:29:30 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:29:30 -0000 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds wonderful. I have a few questions. The only interfaces seem to be serial lines. I take it that any DEC peripheral that is connected via a serial line could possibly be supported. Other than the serial lines are there any plans to produce an interface to any of the standard DEC PDP-11 busses ie Uni and Q22? An Ethernet port (co-ax or UTP) would be nice. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ex Digital Equipment Corporation 1975 - 1985 ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of sytse van slooten Sent: 11 November 2011 10:52 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: VHDL PDP11 Today, 11-11-11, seems like a nice day to announce the availability of yet another PDP-11 implementation in VHDL. I have created a website for my project, PDP2011 ? a re-creation of the well known series of PDP-11 computer systems in VHDL. After nearly four years of work, the project is almost finished; you can run a complete Unibus PDP-11 system with console, disks and other peripherals on a simple low cost FPGA development board. Original operating system software, like V5-V7 versions of Unix and BSD 2.11 work. I would like to invite you to come to http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ Regards Sytse From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 07:07:03 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:07:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1321016823.70603.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/10/11, Mouse wrote: > >>> At least one.? I > call it my "serial killer".? Supplies mains > >>> voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. > >> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, > the mains cord with > >> a BNC plug on the other end. > > Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? > > The EtherKiller I find funny, because I don't really expect > any > significant number of them actually exist. > > Sridhar's remark, on the other hand, I do find somewhat > disturbing. > Perhaps I'm just falling for a good deadpan act, but if he > really does > have that thing it does bother me. I kinda had the opposite reaction. I figured that the whole "attaching mains power to data connectors" was a sort of rite of passage... something every geek has done at some point. I'd wager that most of us have some kind of EtherKiller or related device hanging around, if only for the shock value when someone else sees it. And, of course, for demonstrating the meaning of the phrase "magic smoke". Hint: a 4 pin molex connector at the end of a power cord will make a dead hard drive even deader... with fireworks! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 07:37:39 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:37:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disposal of CFL's - was: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321018659.55817.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/10/11, Tony Duell wrote: > > :) But now we have this new recycling law which you > are forced to pay a > > recycler to dispose of consumer items. The trashman is > no longer allowed to > > haul away your junk. Now think what will really > happens to the junk, spewn > > in some remote area of the woods > > In other words, these regulatios have almost certainly > increased > polution. As usual... Yes, but of course. This is human nature. There is a similar problem with old tires around here. The garbage man won't take them, and disposal costs a few dollars. Therefore, it's quite common to see them discarded into woods, tossed into the median on highways, or in the river. An acquaintance of mine, a couple years ago, faced with problems disposing of a massive pile of Compaq Deskpro Pentium 1's, was not about to pay the ten bucks apiece the "recycling" company wanted. The trash men where he lived wouldn't take them, and nobody else wanted them. Therefore, there are now three Ford Taurus loads of old PC's at the bottom of the river, deposited there under cover of darkness. While I don't approve of his methods, I can understand the problem. Disposal of some things is difficult. Old refrigerators, tires, computers, batteries - they have to go somewhere. And nobody wants to pay to get rid of something. I think it's getting better, but it still has a long way to go. And unfortunately, these new CFL's and other "greeny" devices aren't helping. For years we have thrown our burned out incandescent light bulbs in the trash. They're harmless and inert - glass and metal. But CFL's contain mercury and other chemicals. Probably not much of them, so it's likely not as big an issue now... but it could be in the future. In my experience, CFL's really don't last too long - about the same as a normal incandescent - and when they do go, they tend to burn and melt the base. Nobody is going to bother hanging onto them, waiting for some kind of option for recycling. They go in the trash. Of course, the real problem is that we have a society that produces massive amounts of electronics with a very short usable life. Rather than addressing the symptoms, they really need to focus on the cause - and produce devices that don't *need* to be replaced every six months. With every step towards being "green", we take two steps back, by creating more and more broken or unusable stuff. RoHS regulations have introduced unreliable lead-free solder, and that's introduced massive piles of junk laptop computers and game consoles into the garbage. I can't count the number of machines I've seen rendered irreparable due to faulty solder joints on large BGA chips. They're starting to get the hang of it, and newer machines seem to be slightly better, but still. It's all politics, and very little of it actually has anything to do with realistically being efficient or polluting less. Another side effect.. as they remove more and more materials from the computers, they get less reliable. They ALSO get less attractive to recycle, because there isn't enough material to extract to make it worthwhile. -Ian From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Nov 11 08:14:51 2011 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:14:51 -0500 Subject: NIBL - Dr Dobbs article In-Reply-To: <4EBC8B44.4050802@snarc.net> References: <8D2D3CCA-B5DF-4172-A595-E03974E9A5C7@colourfull.com> <4EBC8B44.4050802@snarc.net> Message-ID: <8373E1E9-9925-409E-AFD6-5D7CFB3FDE6D@colourfull.com> On Nov 10, 2011, at 9:41 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Does anyone have a scan of the Dr Dobbs V1 #10 article on the NIBL for the sc/mp? >> Or can anyone point me to a link of the article or mag? > > It's in our computer museum library here in NJ. I can get it this Sunday. > Hey Evan, That would be awesome if you could do that for me. I've been studying NIBL and the sc/mp micro. Thanks Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 08:34:30 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:34:30 -0500 Subject: Disposal of CFL's - was: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <1321018659.55817.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1321018659.55817.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2011 8:42 AM, "Mr Ian Primus" wrote: > > --- On Thu, 11/10/11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > :) But now we have this new recycling law which you > > are forced to pay a > > > recycler to dispose of consumer items. The trashman is > > no longer allowed to > > > haul away your junk. Now think what will really > > happens to the junk, spewn > > > in some remote area of the woods > > > > In other words, these regulatios have almost certainly > > increased > > polution. As usual... > > Yes, but of course. This is human nature. There is a similar problem with old tires around here. The garbage man won't take them, and disposal costs a few dollars. Therefore, it's quite common to see them discarded into woods, tossed into the median on highways, or in the river. > > An acquaintance of mine, a couple years ago, faced with problems disposing of a massive pile of Compaq Deskpro Pentium 1's, was not about to pay the ten bucks apiece the "recycling" company wanted. The trash men where he lived wouldn't take them, and nobody else wanted them. Therefore, there are now three Ford Taurus loads of old PC's at the bottom of the river, deposited there under cover of darkness. This law is another example of corporate slight of hand trick. There was a time when you get a deposit return on most items, from sodapop bottle to tires. Now these recyclers make their money coming in and on the items they refurbished that's going out. You and I are paying for their stock inventory to produce their products - what kind of logic is that. Now there is still the local recyclers centers in several cities which are free, but you have to motivate yourself - which unfortunately most people don't -to bring the items which are sorted right there into separate recycle bins. And we already have recycle trucks in many cities that pickup glass/plastic bottles - so why not electronics ? =Dan From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 08:52:18 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:52:18 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83F5DDC0-45E9-4D6A-A566-A19042CA9B08@gmail.com> On Nov 11, 2011, at 6:29 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Sounds wonderful. > > I have a few questions. The only interfaces seem to be serial lines. I take > it that any DEC peripheral that is connected via a serial line could > possibly be supported. > > Other than the serial lines are there any plans to produce an interface to > any of the standard DEC PDP-11 busses ie Uni and Q22? That's simple enough from a logic standpoint, but I've had trouble finding suitable driver/receiver chips for DEC's old buses. The old driver chips just aren't made anymore, and NOS is an expensive and spotty solution. If anyone is looking for some suggestions, a number of them have been raised, but I've never had the time/money to make any boards to try them out. > An Ethernet port (co-ax or UTP) would be nice. Not a bad idea; I toyed with this idea for my generic peripheral board as well. You'd have to make something that emulates the Ethernet boards (most of which were running embedded processors; my DELQA, at least, has a 10MHz 68000 that's slightly more powerful than the 11/23+ it's in) and then pass it off to AUI or a PHY of some sort. If I ever get my act (and the money) together to make my board, it'll at least have that. This is great news, though! I'm excited to give it a shot. I'm so glad you targeted the DE1, because I have two of them. :-) - Dave From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 09:01:41 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:01:41 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:55 AM, Michael Richter wrote: > I have a set of RSTS 10 images, including an installation tape, lying > around here somewhere, but I've never tried them out. Is Mentec still around to object to them being posted? If not, I'd say to go for it. If they are, then I'd hold off. Mike From ttmrichter at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 09:19:06 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:19:06 +0800 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 November 2011 23:01, Michael Kerpan wrote: > > I have a set of RSTS 10 images, including an installation tape, lying > > around here somewhere, but I've never tried them out. > > Is Mentec still around to object to them being posted? If not, I'd say > to go for it. If they are, then I'd hold off. > It goes without saying that I would be *highly opposed* to people, say, emailing me and asking me for the tape images. Because that would be wrong. -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Nov 11 10:56:25 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:56:25 -0300 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111111558.pABFwbZn041016@billy.ezwind.net> Sytse, > Today, 11-11-11, seems like a nice day to announce the availability of > yet another PDP-11 implementation in VHDL. Thanks for the project! I have added it to my list: http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/31 -- Jecel From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Nov 11 11:11:53 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:11:53 -0300 Subject: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? In-Reply-To: <4EBC60AE.8040303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> <4EBC60AE.8040303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201111111614.pABGEEl1041367@billy.ezwind.net> Toby, > A watered down form persists in the form of high import tariffs -- a > laudable and necessary idea, except for loopholes which Dell and such > seem to exploit. Brazil doesn't have a corresponding ban on > foreign-owned local manufacturing, or if it does, it's incompletely, > ahem, enforced. The big change in 1992 was exactly to encourage foreign companies to set up local factories, as Dell did. And even Foxconn is expanding its factory in Brazil to make Apple iPads locally (though the decision to go through with this changes every two weeks). I don't have an opinion on whether this strategy is good or not, but the results are certainly those that were planned. > Also, these policies have not helped the Windows problem: Brazil is one > of the worst-infested countries on the planet, by numbers (and hence > also in terms of malware and the black hat industry that has grown > around it there). On the other hand, there is a strong open source movement and you can see Linux based computers being sold in supermarkets. The ministry of education only buys machines with open source for the students. The impact on the Windows situation you described is slight, but it is growing as time goes by. -- Jecel From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 12:35:08 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:35:08 +0100 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hmm. At least one RSTS 10 image file is publically available for quite a while now as mentioned earlier in this conversation. (I definately overlooked this. Had the link, even had downloaded the files. Time to tidy up my storage system). It'd be interesting if they (Mentec) still are in Business with RSTS. There seems to be no active development for some years now. I do not tend to imagine that hobbyist usage of more recent RSTS Distributions bothers them but I may be terribly wrong. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/11/11 Michael Richter > On 11 November 2011 23:01, Michael Kerpan > wrote: > > > > I have a set of RSTS 10 images, including an installation tape, lying > > > around here somewhere, but I've never tried them out. > > > > > > Is Mentec still around to object to them being posted? If not, I'd say > > to go for it. If they are, then I'd hold off. > > > > It goes without saying that I would be *highly opposed* to people, say, > emailing me and asking me for the tape images. > > Because that would be wrong. > > -- > "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions > of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese > people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." > --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 11 12:44:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:44:14 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> On 11/11/2011 01:35 PM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > hmm. At least one RSTS 10 image file is publically available for quite a > while now as mentioned earlier in this conversation. (I definately > overlooked this. Had the link, even had downloaded the files. Time to tidy > up my storage system). > > It'd be interesting if they (Mentec) still are in Business with RSTS. There > seems to be no active development for some years now. I do not tend to > imagine that hobbyist usage of more recent RSTS Distributions bothers them > but I may be terribly wrong. Mentec sold that stuff to another company, I don't recall their name right now. I think they have no idea of what it is. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 11 13:06:30 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:06:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 Message-ID: <201111111906.pABJ6UKa012608@floodgap.com> Or at least my BeBox does: the Time control panel won't let me enter the year 2011. I set it to 2005 since that was the calendar match. I can't find anywhere that addresses this for R5 -- anyone know? The epoch seems to start in 1965, so assuming it is a 32-bit time counter, internally it should still be able to handle that. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm taking punk totem pole carving." ----- From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Nov 11 13:27:07 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:27:07 +0000 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:44 AM On 11/11/2011 01:35 PM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: >> It'd be interesting if they (Mentec) still are in Business with RSTS. >> There seems to be no active development for some years now. I do not >> tend to imagine that hobbyist usage of more recent RSTS Distributions >> bothers them but I may be terribly wrong. > Mentec sold that stuff to another company, I don't recall their name > right now. I think they have no idea of what it is. The company's name is XX2247, and they know precisely what it is. We have a license from them for the PDP-11 software which Digital sold to Mentec. (Media are a different matter. We're on our own for that part.) The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 11 13:33:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:33:44 -0500 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <0773F8A6610C44538C29E18CB8AAF48A@portajara> References: <4EBC849D.2040703@gmail.com> <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111110302.WAA22802@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EBC95D6.50805@telegraphics.com.au> <4EBC9B88.40001@neurotica.com> <0773F8A6610C44538C29E18CB8AAF48A@portajara> Message-ID: <4EBD7898.3090009@neurotica.com> On 11/11/2011 01:36 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I know Sridhar well; he is one of my best friends. I firmly believe >> that he DOES indeed have such a device. > > BTW, it is always nice to remember: Today Sridhar gets older...Happy > birthday, man! :oD Yes, happy birthday Sridhar! You old fart! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 11 13:35:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:35:25 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4EBD78FD.4080408@neurotica.com> On 11/11/2011 02:27 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Mentec sold that stuff to another company, I don't recall their name >> right now. I think they have no idea of what it is. > > The company's name is XX2247, and they know precisely what it is. We > have a license from them for the PDP-11 software which Digital sold to > Mentec. (Media are a different matter. We're on our own for that part.) > > The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. The company I'm thinking of is most definitely *not* XX2247, so I think my information is out of date. The company having that name is extremely encouraging. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Nov 11 13:37:05 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:37:05 +0000 Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <201111111906.pABJ6UKa012608@floodgap.com> References: <201111111906.pABJ6UKa012608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036D50@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Cameron Kaiser Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:07 AM > Or at least my BeBox does: the Time control panel won't let me enter > the year 2011. I set it to 2005 since that was the calendar match. Technically, of course, the calendar match for 2011 is 1983. 28 year cycle, you know. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 11 13:39:12 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:39:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <201111111906.pABJ6UKa012608@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Nov 11, 11 11:06:30 am" Message-ID: <201111111939.pABJdChK011166@floodgap.com> > Or at least my BeBox does: the Time control panel won't let me enter the > year 2011. I set it to 2005 since that was the calendar match. > > I can't find anywhere that addresses this for R5 -- anyone know? The epoch > seems to start in 1965, so assuming it is a 32-bit time counter, internally > it should still be able to handle that. Answered my own question. /bin/date will set it past 2010. Still, seems very weird. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I've been walking on clouds/'n flipping off rainbows ... -- Strong Bad #150 From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 11 13:49:53 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:49:53 -0800 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > The company's name is XX2247, If I'm not mistaken, the company name is actually XX2247 LLC. They seem to be keeping a very low profile. > The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. The only name I can find associated with it is Dave Carroll, formerly of Mentec, formerly of DEC. There seems to be a personal-use license from XX2247 LLC for RT-11, RSTS/E, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ at: http://www.trailing-edge.com/a From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 11 13:49:46 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:49:46 +0100 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111111204946.b8307a0d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:44:00 +0100 jonas at otter.se wrote: > Or 10kV from the local substation. Well. I have my own local 10 kV transformer for this kind of work. Does a very good job on electrocuting old PeeCees. Muhuhahaha! :-] p.s.: It is an ignition transformer from a furnace. It generates an arc to ignite the oil / gas. It provides 10 kV at 23mA. I did quite some nice and interresting experiments with it in my youth. Like burning flies to ashes. Hehehe. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 11 13:57:34 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:57:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036D50@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Nov 11, 11 07:37:05 pm" Message-ID: <201111111957.pABJvYMQ016076@floodgap.com> > > Or at least my BeBox does: the Time control panel won't let me enter > > the year 2011. I set it to 2005 since that was the calendar match. > > Technically, of course, the calendar match for 2011 is 1983. 28 year > cycle, you know. Ah yes, I couldn't remember that number. ^_^;; -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A penny saved is stupid. --------------------------------------------------- From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 14:33:24 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:33:24 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> The company's name is XX2247, > > If I'm not mistaken, the company name is actually XX2247 LLC. ?They seem to > be keeping a very low profile. > >> ?The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. > > The only name I can find associated with it is Dave Carroll, formerly of > Mentec, formerly of DEC. > > There seems to be a personal-use license from XX2247 LLC for RT-11, RSTS/E, > RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ at: > ? ? ? ?http://www.trailing-edge.com/a Wow. That's nice to see. I notice that it doesn't specify any version restrictions, so assuming digital media images can be found for stuff, even the latest possible versions of things should be accessible to hobbyists. Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 13:53:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:53:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <20111110230128.a04da3ea.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Nov 10, 11 11:01:28 pm Message-ID: > Depends on the LED. LED lights for macro photography are quite common > these days. Yes, but a lot of thsoe are used with digital cameras, and I suspect the response to a non-continous spectrum of a filtered CCD array is differnt from that of colour film. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 14:20:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:20:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBCA186.90704@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Nov 10, 11 11:16:06 pm Message-ID: > I do indeed have such a thing. Rest assured I've only used it for... > disposing... of non-working hardware that belongs to me. I would Some of us prefer _repairing_ such non-workign hardware... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 14:24:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:24:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBCAF3F.60200@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 10, 11 11:14:39 pm Message-ID: > I remember my NCR Tower had a BNC plug on the back which was wired into the > PSU as part of the power-fail circuitry - I suspect that if wired up to an > Ethernet then interesting things would happen... A number of HP devices have a BNC conenctor as a 5V power output to ru na logic probe or external add-ons. My HP1630D logic analyser has one o nthe bnck pannel to power probe interedaces. The 59403 HPIB-RS232 interface has one on the back to pwoer a logic probe for testing, my Multiprogramemr has one inside the front door for a similar purpose. I am told some HP logic probles had a BNC plug on the cable specifically to plug into such a connector. And of course BNC connectors have been used ro the RF output of smallish radio transmitters. I suspect applyig na few watts of RF to an ethernet cable could be 'interesting'. Moral : Do not connect random BNCs together... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 13:57:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:57:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: City recycling - Re: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series In-Reply-To: <4EBC639E.6080000@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Nov 10, 11 06:51:58 pm Message-ID: > This implies you should vote be voting for the candidate who will set up > a household recycling service (we have one in Toronto, but it has been > threatened by the latest lumpen-Mayor). We get some such recycling over here, in that paper/card/glass/plastci bottles are collected separately, etc. But there is no special collection for electrical stuff/CFLs. > > If neither candidate offers the policy you want -- well, isn't that an > interesting problem... We have many more than 2 candidates to choose between (3 main political parties, several minor parties, and independant candidates). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 14:27:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:27:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Nov 10, 11 09:39:54 pm Message-ID: > Somewhere around here I have a mains to RJ45 cord :) someone once bet me I beleive that's actually impossible. RJ45 implies not only the conencotr (8p8c 'modular' but also the wiring/signals. 10baseT and 100baseT ethernet connectors are not strictly RJ45s, and anythign with mains on it isn't either... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 14:05:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:05:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Nov 10, 11 09:28:20 pm Message-ID: > > At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. > > Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a > BNC plug on the other end. > THat would do suprisignly little damage I think. Ethernet conencotrs are isolated from the rest of the machine (the traceiver chip is on the conencotr side of the isolation barrier), so applyging mains to the BNC connector (or indeed the 8p8c [1] of twisted-pair ethernet) will kil lthe transciver chip, possibly the isolation transformern and DC-DC converter, but will dont get much further. [1] It's not RJ45 damnit! Applying mains to na RS23 2connecotr could end up blowing out chips all over the machine.... And while both D-seires nad BNC connectors are rated for votlages bove mains, I do have a problem with having one side of the mains connected ot the metal shell of a BNC plug. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 14:07:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:07:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBC8D1C.1060602@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Nov 10, 11 09:49:00 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/11/11 9:28 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Nov 10, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > >> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. > > > > Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a BNC plug on the other end. > > > > Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? No, I'm with you on this one. I see no humour in it at all. I spend far too much of my time fixing 'natural' fuults to want to have soemthing liek this around... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 14:52:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:52:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <20111110182416.B61101@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 10, 11 06:25:38 pm Message-ID: > > At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to > > every alternate pin on a DB25. > > My serial killer only provides power to pins 1 through 8 and 20. > Therefore, it is a DB9. Incidentally, is a 'serial sex offender' a DCE (such as a modem) with a DB25 plug? -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 11 14:59:54 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:59:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201111112059.PAA08905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. With a name like that I should hope so! ...I think I still have my XX2247 somewhere... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 11 15:05:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:05:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 11, 11 11:49:53 am Message-ID: > There seems to be a personal-use license from XX2247 LLC for RT-11, > RSTS/E, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ at: > http://www.trailing-edge.com/a I've not looked (And can't look for the moment). What does this license actually permit (does it allow the use of these OSes on real hardware or just on emulators?) Do I have to apply for anything, if some what/how? -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 11 15:28:50 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 22:28:50 +0100 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: <20111110230128.a04da3ea.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20111111222850.0976e0db.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:53:08 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I suspect the response to a non-continous spectrum of a filtered > CCD array is differnt from that of colour film. When it comes to a non-continous spectrum, even the response of different color films is different. The difference from a CCD to a film isn't that much different as from one color film to an other. Especially if you compare so different things as negative film and slide film or E6 / C41 to the now extinct Kodachrome... Film and CCDs (or CMOS sensors, basicly a light sensitive DRAM) use the same principle of spliting up the color space into read, green and blue. If there is a narrow spectral line inbetween (e.g. sodium lamps for street lighting) booth will get the same problems. Ahh, I forgot video camera tubes. They are bitten by the same problem... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 15:49:11 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:49:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <201111111558.pABFwbZn041016@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201111111558.pABFwbZn041016@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2011, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Sytse, > >> Today, 11-11-11, seems like a nice day to announce the availability of >> yet another PDP-11 implementation in VHDL. > > Thanks for the project! I have added it to my list: > > http://www.merlintec.com:8080/hardware/31 You are missing CoCoFPGA: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoCo3FPGA/ -- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 15:54:38 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:54:38 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <201111112059.PAA08905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <201111112059.PAA08905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Mouse wrote: >> The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. > > With a name like that I should hope so! > > ...I think I still have my XX2247 somewhere... I've had one of those on my keyring since High School (when I got my first PDP-8). You never know when you might need to unlock the front panel of a vintage DEC system. -ethan From drb at msu.edu Fri Nov 11 15:55:25 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:55:25 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:27:07 GMT.) <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111111215525.284FDA7153@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. The whois data for xx2247.org is illuminating. De From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 11 16:17:12 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:17:12 -0800 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <20111111215525.284FDA7153@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <20111111215525.284FDA7153@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4EBD9EE8.70407@brouhaha.com> Dennis Boone wrote: > The whois data for xx2247.org is illuminating. It is not obvious to me that there is any relation between xx2247.org and XX2247 LLC. I'm not saying that there isn't such a relationship, just that I don't see any reason to assume that there is one in the absence of more information. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 11 16:32:51 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:32:51 +0100 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <20111110182416.B61101@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20111111233251.56450ad4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:52:35 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Incidentally, is a 'serial sex offender' a DCE (such as a modem) with a > DB25 plug? Yes, but easy to fix with a gender changer. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Nov 11 18:31:04 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:31:04 -0300 Subject: list of FPGA recreations (was: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: References: <201111111558.pABFwbZn041016@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201111112333.pABNXDpT053364@billy.ezwind.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > You are missing CoCoFPGA: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoCo3FPGA/ Thanks! I added it with the comment "discussion" since you have to join the group to have access to the files. The only other CoCo project I had found seems dead. Though I never had this computer, I did build one with the same chipset and so have some fondness for it. But I now think using those chips was a mistake, since for $40 in TTLs (the cost of the 6847 and the 6883) I could have gotten a much nicer v?deo. -- Jecel From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 11 17:45:54 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:45:54 -0800 Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/11/11 12:27 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> Somewhere around here I have a mains to RJ45 cord :) someone once bet me > > I beleive that's actually impossible. RJ45 implies not only the conencotr > (8p8c 'modular' but also the wiring/signals. 10baseT and 100baseT > ethernet connectors are not strictly RJ45s, and anythign with mains on it > isn't either... > > -tony > Ok, so a mains to 10/100bt cable, 4 pins were hot, 4 were neutral. And not all 10/100bt cards have isolation between the ethernet chip and the jack. This was a particularly nasty "winmodem" style card that only worked under windows and only with the vendor supplied driver. I don't remember if it was a marvell or realtek chipset anymore. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 11 18:21:00 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:21:00 -0800 Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EBDBBEC.5080001@brouhaha.com> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > And not all 10/100bt cards have isolation between the ethernet chip and the jack. If it doesn't have isolation between the electronics and the receptacle, it isn't actually 10BASE-T or 100BASE-T. Personally I've never seen one that didn't have isolation. That's a recipe for disaster. Note that sometimes the isolation is built into the jack. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 11 18:44:13 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:44:13 -0500 Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EBDC15D.6050308@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/11/11 3:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >> >> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a >> BNC plug on the other end.> > > THat would do suprisignly little damage I think. Ethernet conencotrs are > isolated from the rest of the machine (the traceiver chip is on the > conencotr side of the isolation barrier), so applyging mains to the BNC > connector (or indeed the 8p8c [1] of twisted-pair ethernet) will kil lthe > transciver chip, possibly the isolation transformern and DC-DC converter, > but will dont get much further. On some systems Ethernet is also fused (I once blew the Ethernet fuse on a SPARCstation 1(+)... can't remember how). --T > > [1] It's not RJ45 damnit! > > Applying mains to na RS23 2connecotr could end up blowing out chips all > over the machine.... > > And while both D-seires nad BNC connectors are rated for votlages bove > mains, I do have a problem with having one side of the mains connected ot > the metal shell of a BNC plug. > > -tony > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:45:48 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:45:48 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > I haven't seen any behavior like that with any of the CQD-220/TM that > I have. What version of the firmware are you using? The latest image > I have is CQD-220/TM B3A.02 (F220Y1B3A, F220Y2B3A) 10/17/95. Swapping > in different EPROMs would be trivial to try, but might not be too > likely to change the behavior. The only PAL I have looked at is the > CSR decode PAL, which I reverse engineered to be able to convert > CQD-220/T and CQD-220/M versions into CQD-220/TM versions. So if anyone is at all curious about the answer to this particular quandary (which was lost long ago amidst the talk of electrocuting poor, defenseless circuit boards), the answer seems to be busted aging non-volatile storage. I desoldered the NMC9306 (Microwire EEPROM) and put a socket in so I could test it in my ROM burner. The ROM burner reads all Fs from it (I checked continuity to all pins, so it wasn't that) and can't program anything to it, so I guess the chip is borked. At least with a socket, it'll be easy to put the new one in. If I run the thing without the EEPROM in (I saw provisions for a blank/absent chip in the 8086 code, so I figured I'd give it a shot) it works! The serial port works as expected now, too. The EEPROM holds some information necessary for running, like the LUN offset and some disk/tape configuration options that I haven't work out yet (though defaults are loaded if the EEPROM doesn't come up right). Given the amount of fallback for absent EEPROMs, I should probably be able to get this thing to run without one for the time being. Of course, there's always a catch; my last remaining spare SCSI drive seems to have died in my most recent move, so I'll have to cannibalize one from one of my older Macs. Anyone know where to get NMC9306s? It's an incredibly old and terrible chip, so it's not currently manufactured, and Jameco doesn't have any old pulls. Can't find them on any arcade repair parts sites, either, which is usually my best bet. Anyone else have any usual sites for finding vintage ICs? - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:48:35 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:48:35 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20830BEE-7AE4-4684-8D59-1CC1F78ED447@gmail.com> On Nov 11, 2011, at 3:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >> >> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a >> BNC plug on the other end. > > > THat would do suprisignly little damage I think. Ethernet conencotrs are > isolated from the rest of the machine (the traceiver chip is on the > conencotr side of the isolation barrier), so applyging mains to the BNC > connector (or indeed the 8p8c [1] of twisted-pair ethernet) will kil lthe > transciver chip, possibly the isolation transformern and DC-DC converter, > but will dont get much further. That does assume the circuit is designed correctly. I think the original BOFH "joke" was "Let's see if that 10KV isolation really works!" I've definitely seen enough circuits where questionable things were done to the magnetic (mostly bypassing it "just a little" to make it work with some bad engineering elsewhere) that I'd worry. And, of course, the fun bit about BNC was supposed to be that since it's all the same physical media, you'd be testing the entire network's isolation ability. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 11 18:51:39 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:51:39 -0500 Subject: Tech imports/open source in Brazil - Re: How much a brazilian mac clone is valued? In-Reply-To: <201111111614.pABGEEl1041367@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4EB4526B.25526.2822826@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB5EFD7.8050605@brouhaha.com> <4EB59899.16421.268D57C@cclist.sydex.com> <4EB9AE8B.40108@neurotica.com> <4EBA9B87.7020205@verizon.net> <44649C8B-8939-475C-B9FD-D6B4CAA74A60@kevill.com> <33ED1C473DCA480395ED282CB4906D10@portajara> <4EBC60AE.8040303@telegraphics.com.au> <201111111614.pABGEEl1041367@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4EBDC31B.4080701@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/11/11 12:11 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Toby, > >> A watered down form persists in the form of high import tariffs -- a >> laudable and necessary idea, except for loopholes which Dell and such >> seem to exploit. Brazil doesn't have a corresponding ban on >> foreign-owned local manufacturing, or if it does, it's incompletely, >> ahem, enforced. > > The big change in 1992 was exactly to encourage foreign companies to set > up local factories, as Dell did. Yes, I'm aware Dell has a factory. I assumed it was a loophole; but thanks for clarifying. Seems it's a loophole in the spirit of the tariffs that is large enough to sail a container ship through... > And even Foxconn is expanding its > factory in Brazil to make Apple iPads locally (though the decision to go > through with this changes every two weeks). I don't have an opinion on > whether this strategy is good or not, but the results are certainly > those that were planned. Foxconn isn't very well regarded as an employer. I hope this isn't merely a barometer of desperation. I also hope they don't hike the worker suicide rate as they have done, without giving a damn, in China. > >> Also, these policies have not helped the Windows problem: Brazil is one >> of the worst-infested countries on the planet, by numbers (and hence >> also in terms of malware and the black hat industry that has grown >> around it there). > > On the other hand, there is a strong open source movement and you can > see Linux based computers being sold in supermarkets. The ministry of > education only buys machines with open source for the students. The > impact on the Windows situation you described is slight, but it is > growing as time goes by. That is good to know. I've worked with several Brazilians who are very enthusiastic about open source, and I look forward to them changing the situation over time! --Toby > > -- Jecel > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:52:54 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:52:54 -0500 Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBDC15D.6050308@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EBDC15D.6050308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 11/11/11 3:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >>> >>> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a >>> BNC plug on the other end.> >> >> THat would do suprisignly little damage I think. Ethernet conencotrs are >> isolated from the rest of the machine (the traceiver chip is on the >> conencotr side of the isolation barrier), so applyging mains to the BNC >> connector (or indeed the 8p8c [1] of twisted-pair ethernet) will kil lthe >> transciver chip, possibly the isolation transformern and DC-DC converter, >> but will dont get much further. > > On some systems Ethernet is also fused (I once blew the Ethernet fuse on a SPARCstation 1(+)... can't remember how). I know my DELQA cable kit has a fuse in it, but I think it's for the AUI-supplied power instead of any signal lines. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 11 18:58:42 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:58:42 -0500 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <1321016823.70603.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1321016823.70603.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EBDC4C2.3030203@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/11/11 8:07 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 11/10/11, Mouse wrote: > >>>>> At least one. I >> call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains >>>>> voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >>>> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, >> the mains cord with >>>> a BNC plug on the other end. >>> Am I the only one who doesn't find this funny? >> >> The EtherKiller I find funny, because I don't really expect >> any >> significant number of them actually exist. >> >> Sridhar's remark, on the other hand, I do find somewhat >> disturbing. >> Perhaps I'm just falling for a good deadpan act, but if he >> really does >> have that thing it does bother me. > > I kinda had the opposite reaction. I figured that the whole > "attaching mains power to data connectors" was a sort of rite of passage... something every geek has done at some point. I'd wager that most of us have some kind of EtherKiller or related device hanging around, if only for the shock value when someone else sees it. And, of course, for demonstrating the meaning of the phrase "magic smoke". > Was never the slightest bit tempted. Goes against my grain completely. --T > Hint: a 4 pin molex connector at the end of a power cord will make a dead hard drive even deader... with fireworks! > -Ian > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 19:00:43 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:00:43 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0CB03F63-16EE-428B-879A-7FEE17B8983A@gmail.com> On Nov 11, 2011, at 7:45 PM, David Riley wrote: > Anyone know where to get NMC9306s? It's an incredibly old and terrible chip, so it's not currently manufactured, and Jameco doesn't have any old pulls. Can't find them on any arcade repair parts sites, either, which is usually my best bet. Anyone else have any usual sites for finding vintage ICs? Before anyone calls me out as a dummy: yes, a 93C06 should probably work fine (unless someone can think of a reason they wouldn't). They're still not easily available, but worst case, I can probably modify the few constants in the ROM which determine the address length and modify it to work with a 93C46, which is still available. If that turns out to be the case, I'll gladly release a patch. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 11 19:15:46 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:15:46 -0500 Subject: Mystery solved - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EBDC8C2.6000501@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/11/11 7:45 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 7, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> I haven't seen any behavior like that with any of the CQD-220/TM that >> I have. What version of the firmware are you using? The latest image >> I have is CQD-220/TM B3A.02 (F220Y1B3A, F220Y2B3A) 10/17/95. Swapping >> in different EPROMs would be trivial to try, but might not be too >> likely to change the behavior. The only PAL I have looked at is the >> CSR decode PAL, which I reverse engineered to be able to convert >> CQD-220/T and CQD-220/M versions into CQD-220/TM versions. > > So if anyone is at all curious about the answer to this particular > quandary ... I am! I own some CQD boards... > the answer seems to be busted > aging non-volatile storage. I desoldered the NMC9306 (Microwire > EEPROM) and put a socket in so I could test it in my ROM burner. The > ROM burner reads all Fs from it (I checked continuity to all pins, so > it wasn't that) and can't program anything to it, so I guess the chip > is borked. At least with a socket, it'll be easy to put the new one > in. > > If I run the thing without the EEPROM in (I saw provisions for a > blank/absent chip in the 8086 code, so I figured I'd give it a shot) > it works! The serial port works as expected now, too. The EEPROM > holds some information necessary for running, like the LUN offset and > some disk/tape configuration options that I haven't work out yet > (though defaults are loaded if the EEPROM doesn't come up right). > Given the amount of fallback for absent EEPROMs, I should probably be > able to get this thing to run without one for the time being. > I meant to interject in this thread before, but better late than never: You guys are GOOD. Really good! --T > Of course, there's always a catch ... > > - Dave > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 11 23:17:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:17:27 -0500 Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4EBDC15D.6050308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <26B6027A-0983-4A26-A2D0-FF24FDA673A4@neurotica.com> On Nov 11, 2011, at 7:52 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 11, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 11/11/11 3:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> At least one. I call it my "serial killer". Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >>>> >>>> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a >>>> BNC plug on the other end.> >>> >>> THat would do suprisignly little damage I think. Ethernet conencotrs are >>> isolated from the rest of the machine (the traceiver chip is on the >>> conencotr side of the isolation barrier), so applyging mains to the BNC >>> connector (or indeed the 8p8c [1] of twisted-pair ethernet) will kil lthe >>> transciver chip, possibly the isolation transformern and DC-DC converter, >>> but will dont get much further. >> >> On some systems Ethernet is also fused (I once blew the Ethernet fuse on a SPARCstation 1(+)... can't remember how). > > I know my DELQA cable kit has a fuse in it, but I think it's for the AUI-supplied power instead of any signal lines. Yep, that's what the onboard Ethernet fuse is for on earlier Sun systems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Nov 11 11:15:46 2011 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:15:46 +0100 Subject: NIBL - Dr Dobbs article In-Reply-To: <4EBC8B44.4050802@snarc.net> References: <8D2D3CCA-B5DF-4172-A595-E03974E9A5C7@colourfull.com> <4EBC8B44.4050802@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4EBD5842.10705@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 11.11.2011 03:41, schrieb Evan Koblentz: > >> Does anyone have a scan of the Dr Dobbs V1 #10 article on the NIBL >> for the sc/mp? >> Or can anyone point me to a link of the article or mag? > > It's in our computer museum library here in NJ. I can get it this Sunday. There is several documentation on NIBL available on the net, beyond the IMHO not so interesting article in Dr. Dobbs. See for instance: http://www.dos4ever.com/SCMP/SCMP.html http://www.orphanedgames.com/APF/6800_cpu_programming/6800_books/Best%20of%20Interface%20Age,%20Vol%20I,%20%27Software%20in%20BASIC%27%20%28Edited%20by%20Carl%20D%20Warren%29%281979%29.pdf (the latter lists and comments four BASIC interpreters for micros, the third of which is NIBL). -- Holger From sytsezelf at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 15:42:56 2011 From: sytsezelf at gmail.com (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 22:42:56 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 Message-ID: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> >> The only interfaces seem to be serial lines. What there is now is basically a KL11 type serial controller - the simplest version of a rs232 controller, without the option to set baud rates, byte lengths, parity, without modem control, and without any error detection capability. ie. What you would connect a terminal or hardcopy console to. >> I take it that any DEC peripheral that is connected via a serial line could >> possibly be supported. More specifically: any device connected to a KL11 - or whatever variant of that that would be accepted by the software that interfaces to the controller. >> Other than the serial lines are there any plans to produce an interface to >> any of the standard DEC PDP-11 busses ie Uni and Q22? If you mean, do I have any plans to make it possible to connect original "real" Uni/Q controller boards to the FPGA? No, I don't - firstly, because I don't have any of those boards; secondly, because it would likely be more appropriate to recreate the functionality in VHDL as well. And maybe easier - because, interfacing would mean that the timing and electrical behavior of a 'real' Uni/Q bus would have to work with the timing and electrics of the 'logical' bus inside the FPGA. That would not be a trivial challenge. >> An Ethernet port (co-ax or UTP) would be nice. I agree :-) I do have some thoughts on adding one of the Ethernet controllers, but that is a nontrivial job - it will probably take me at least a couple of months to get it working. And, unlike RS232 ports, Ethernet hardware differs across FPGA boards - some have a phy, some have a complete controller including dma to memory, some have wire/transformer only, most have nothing at all. So there too is a bit of a challenge - which situation to build the VHDL for? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 12 01:28:18 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:28:18 -0800 Subject: galvanic isolation (was Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems) In-Reply-To: <20830BEE-7AE4-4684-8D59-1CC1F78ED447@gmail.com> References: <20830BEE-7AE4-4684-8D59-1CC1F78ED447@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EBE2012.9060006@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote in reference to : > That does assume the circuit is designed correctly. > I think the original BOFH "joke" was "Let's see if that > 10KV isolation really works!" 10KV of galvanic isolation won't necessarily help you much keeping 120VAC or 240VAC across an Ethernet transformer from resulting in damage to the circuitry on the other side of the transformer. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 12 02:48:40 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:48:40 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 22:42:56 +0100 Sytse van Slooten wrote: [connect FPGA PDP-11 to Ethernet] > So there too is a bit of a challenge - which situation to build the VHDL for? ENC28J60 Stand-Alone Ethernet Controller with SPI Interface: http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en022889 The ENC28J60 is often used to connect small 8 bit microcontrolers to Ethernet. Given that e.g. a DELQA has a M68k as embedded controler, you most likely need some sort of softcore inside the FPGA to properly emulate a DELQA. This softcore could drive a ENC28J60. There are other things that I would like to see build into the FPGA: A TS11 tape drive controller emulation that exposes a formated Pertec interface on the pins of the FPGA. It would be trivial to build a level shifter to drive a real Pertec interfaced tape drive to the FPGA. The same for RX02, RL02, ... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 12 05:19:53 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 06:19:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBDC15D.6050308@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EBDC15D.6050308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201111121119.GAA21742@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord >>> with a BNC plug on the other end. >> Ethernet conencotrs are isolated from the rest of the machine [...], > On some systems Ethernet is also fused (I once blew the Ethernet fuse > on a SPARCstation 1(+)... can't remember how). That's rather different, though; that fuse, if I recall correctly, is in the +12V power feed to the DA15 AUI connector, not something that would be in-circuit for applying high voltage to thinnet or twisted-pair connections. Of course, if you do something similar but for DA15, you could blow it - and, quite likely, various other pieces of the machine that use the same power feed. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 12 05:23:11 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 06:23:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: galvanic isolation (was Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems) In-Reply-To: <4EBE2012.9060006@brouhaha.com> References: <20830BEE-7AE4-4684-8D59-1CC1F78ED447@gmail.com> <4EBE2012.9060006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201111121123.GAA21838@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I think the original BOFH "joke" was "Let's see if that 10KV >> isolation really works!" > 10KV of galvanic isolation won't necessarily help you much keeping > 120VAC or 240VAC across an Ethernet transformer from resulting in > damage to the circuitry on the other side of the transformer. No...but the transformer is not going to pass very much power at mains frequency; it's designed for much higher frequencies. Also, "let's test that isolation" calls for different wiring than "let's apply mains power across the output of the transformer". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 06:39:29 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:39:29 +0000 Subject: Market value of VAX 4000-96 - Re: Can anyone explain this to me ? In-Reply-To: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> References: <4EB49987.2060405@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5 November 2011 02:03, leaknoil wrote: > On 11/4/2011 6:04 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >> Good way to alienate any possible supporters you may have. Many of us out >> here have experience with classic hardware and software and current hardware >> and software. In my last gig we used a couple different Operating Systems >> and NONE were trusted out of the box, they were all hardened as some of our >> machines lived in the corporate DMZ. Anyone who suggested that any OS was >> secure enough right out of the box would have been laughed out of the >> office. > > What do you mean out of the box ? What would you do to a current Debian > distro to make it more secure ? You can't even install it without setting > passwords and no services are turned on. Hang on, that's not true. At the /very/ least, if you install a bare system, it has an OpenSSH server running and accepting requests and probably more. Ubuntu Server is more minimal than Debian and does not even have ssh on by default. /Nothing/ is on by default. > If you add services they are at > super paranoid settings until you adjust them so you can actually use them > for anything. They're not that tight. I suspect OpenBSD is locked down harder by default, for starters. > The whole internet is running on linux now like it or not. Hardly! > It > is pretty darn secure as a server. It /can/ be, yes. It is not by default, no. Fair good, yes; better than Windows, yes; better than anything much else that's mainstream on x86, yes; but perfect, no. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 09:21:55 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:21:55 -0500 Subject: galvanic isolation (was Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems) In-Reply-To: <4EBE2012.9060006@brouhaha.com> References: <20830BEE-7AE4-4684-8D59-1CC1F78ED447@gmail.com> <4EBE2012.9060006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <14973148-3333-47EC-863C-273BA6CB4192@gmail.com> On Nov 12, 2011, at 2:28 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote in reference to : > > That does assume the circuit is designed correctly. > > I think the original BOFH "joke" was "Let's see if that > > 10KV isolation really works!" > > 10KV of galvanic isolation won't necessarily help you much keeping 120VAC or 240VAC across an Ethernet transformer from resulting in damage to the circuitry on the other side of the transformer. I didn't say the original one would actually work, it's just there. :-) - Dave From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Nov 12 09:32:22 2011 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:32:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: galvanic isolation (was Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems) In-Reply-To: <201111121123.GAA21838@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20830BEE-7AE4-4684-8D59-1CC1F78ED447@gmail.com> <4EBE2012.9060006@brouhaha.com> <201111121123.GAA21838@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2011, Mouse wrote: > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 06:23:11 -0500 (EST) > From: Mouse > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: galvanic isolation (was Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems) > >>> I think the original BOFH "joke" was "Let's see if that 10KV >>> isolation really works!" >> 10KV of galvanic isolation won't necessarily help you much keeping >> 120VAC or 240VAC across an Ethernet transformer from resulting in >> damage to the circuitry on the other side of the transformer. > > No...but the transformer is not going to pass very much power at mains > frequency; it's designed for much higher frequencies. > > Also, "let's test that isolation" calls for different wiring than > "let's apply mains power across the output of the transformer". Absolutely, once you fry the Ethernet transformer, you dont have _any_ isolation (carbon and copper vapor make poor insulators) Note that though Ethernet is isolated it is very poorly isolated. Both primary and secondary are jumble wound together on Ethernet isolation transformers, the isolation depending entirely on the wire varnish (which wont last long with an overload) This is why small isolation transformers and OPTOs need current limiting devices in their power supplies if failure could present shock hazard, a carbonized isolator doesn't > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 12 10:29:41 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:29:41 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:48:40 +0100 Jochen Kunz wrote: > [connect FPGA PDP-11 to Ethernet] > > So there too is a bit of a challenge - which situation to build the VHDL for? > ENC28J60 Stand-Alone Ethernet Controller with SPI Interface: > http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en022889 Just found an other thing in that category: W5300 from http://www.wiznet.co.kr/ It is used on this http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp10x/ FPGA PDP-10. An other option would be a AT91SAM7X with its integrated MAC... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 12 11:51:55 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:51:55 -0800 Subject: galvanic isolation (was Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems) In-Reply-To: <201111121123.GAA21838@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20830BEE-7AE4-4684-8D59-1CC1F78ED447@gmail.com> <4EBE2012.9060006@brouhaha.com> <201111121123.GAA21838@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EBEB23B.1080002@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > 10KV of galvanic isolation won't necessarily help you much keeping > 120VAC or 240VAC across an Ethernet transformer from resulting in > damage to the circuitry on the other side of the transformer. Mouse wrote: > No...but the transformer is not going to pass very much power at mains > frequency; it's designed for much higher frequencies. It doesn't take any power to speak of to destroy MOS chips. It only takes a voltage a little above the abs max Vdd rating, at a few mA. If you put mains across the Ethernet transformer, it will destroy the transformer quickly, but not nearly quickly enough to prevent damage to the stuff on the other side. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 12:12:58 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:12:58 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2011, at 11:29 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Just found an other thing in that category: W5300 from > http://www.wiznet.co.kr/ > It is used on this http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp10x/ FPGA PDP-10. > > An other option would be a AT91SAM7X with its integrated MAC... If you want a micro with built-in Ethernet, there are dozens. However, ones with built-in PHYs are even better because then all you need to do is deal with the magnetics (get a jack with built-in magnetics and you're set). TI's Stellaris series has one, and if you wanted to go the 68K route, Freescale's Coldfire MCF52235 is a 68k-esque implementation with a built-in PHY as well. Both are 10/100 and should significantly outperform the DELQA (12.5 MB/s should honestly be more than the PDP-11 can deal with effectively). The ARM open-source dev tools are honestly a bit nicer to work with than the Coldfire ones, so I'd recommend going that route. Both can be interfaced via SPI, which is really simple to make a bus interface with in HDL. You should be able to make a simple SPI interface that does the necessary actions of Unibus/QBUS, such as address masking and bus error/timeout detection. For SPI, you'd probably need to either do the address masking on the SPI part or have a fixed chip select mapping on the FPGA. If you wanted to be authentic, you could always make a MAC in the FPGA and go straight to AUI, but that would require you to develop your own AUI drivers (since most if not all of those driver chips aren't manufactured anymore). That's one option I have planned for my board. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 12 12:27:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:27:26 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1E2EB764-026C-41BF-9A12-6EF1188C8D82@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2011, at 11:29 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:48:40 +0100 > Jochen Kunz wrote: > >> [connect FPGA PDP-11 to Ethernet] >>> So there too is a bit of a challenge - which situation to build the VHDL for? >> ENC28J60 Stand-Alone Ethernet Controller with SPI Interface: >> http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en022889 > Just found an other thing in that category: W5300 from > http://www.wiznet.co.kr/ > It is used on this http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp10x/ FPGA PDP-10. Can you get to raw Ethernet frames on the W5300? I haven't (yet) designed with it, but it seems it does IP only, and doesn't expose raw Ethernet to the host interface. That would make it a poor choice for machines that often want to run, say, DECnet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 12 12:48:53 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:48:53 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20111112194853.1066cd32.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:12:58 -0500 David Riley wrote: > If you wanted to be authentic, you could always make a MAC in the FPGA and go straight to AUI, but that would require you to develop your own AUI drivers (since most if not all of those driver chips aren't manufactured anymore). That's one option I have planned for my board. Isn't AUI just (differential) ECL? IIRC I saw 10xxx ECL chips in a DEC H4000(?)... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 12 12:57:23 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:57:23 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <1E2EB764-026C-41BF-9A12-6EF1188C8D82@neurotica.com> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1E2EB764-026C-41BF-9A12-6EF1188C8D82@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111112195723.2c70acb1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:27:26 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > Can you get to raw Ethernet frames on the W5300? Yes. See datasheet section 5.2.4 MACRAW on page 108. You can use MACRAW simultaneously to the TCP/IP mode. To cite http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp10x/ abut the W5300: the fact that it understood how to do higher-level protocols (IP, ICMP, UDP, TCP) by itself turned out to be useful (the CHAOSNET implementation uses the controllers RAW-IP mode, and the controller handles all of the details of ICMP and ARP more or less by itself). -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 12 13:04:32 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:04:32 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20111112195723.2c70acb1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1E2EB764-026C-41BF-9A12-6EF1188C8D82@neurotica.com> <20111112195723.2c70acb1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4EBEC340.30206@brouhaha.com> Jochen Kunz wrote about the Wiznet devices: > Yes. See datasheet section 5.2.4 MACRAW on page 108. You can use MACRAW > simultaneously to the TCP/IP mode. Can you disable the internal TCP/IP processing entirely, when the host wants to use its own IP stack? Having a chip with an embedded IP stack is useful for a lot of things; I tried to convince the powers that be at my employer back in 1990 that we should develop and sell such a chip. But when you're trying to emulate a DEUNA, DEQNA, DELUA, or DELQA, it seems like it would only get in the way, since those interfaces operate at the Ethernet frame level. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 13:46:27 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:46:27 -0800 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:45 PM, David Riley wrote: > If I run the thing without the EEPROM in (I saw provisions for a blank/absent chip in the 8086 code, so I figured I'd give it a shot) it works! ?The serial port works as expected now, too. ?The EEPROM holds some information necessary for running, like the LUN offset and some disk/tape configuration options that I haven't work out yet (though defaults are loaded if the EEPROM doesn't come up right). ?Given the amount of fallback for absent EEPROMs, I should probably be able to get this thing to run without one for the time being. > Have you dug into the firmware enough to figure out where the serial number is stored? My guess is that the serial number is stored somewhere in the EEPROM. I wonder if the firmware provides any mechanism to set the serial number in the EEPROM, or if the serial number needs to be programmed into the EEPROM before it is installed in the board. I have at least one CQD-220 (or maybe it's a CQD-200?) that appears to have lost its serial number after I swapped firmware and maybe when changing it from a /T or /M to a /TM. It doesn't affect the operation at all, but it would be interesting to restore the serial number if there is an easy way to do that. -Glen From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 12 14:13:05 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:13:05 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EBEC340.30206@brouhaha.com> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20111112172941.3aa66f36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1E2EB764-026C-41BF-9A12-6EF1188C8D82@neurotica.com> <20111112195723.2c70acb1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EBEC340.30206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20111112211305.27fdbe90.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:04:32 -0800 Eric Smith wrote: > Can you disable the internal TCP/IP processing entirely, when the host > wants to use its own IP stack? I don't know. I sugest you read the datasheet yourself. ;-) > Having a chip with an embedded IP stack is useful for a lot of things; Yes. But this has its own set of problems and limitations. It can be a good tool, but only for its special set of applications. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 14:33:36 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:33:36 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <696BD8C6-D67E-4DF7-9D60-AF4B9D7B7FB2@gmail.com> On Nov 12, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:45 PM, David Riley wrote: >> If I run the thing without the EEPROM in (I saw provisions for a blank/absent chip in the 8086 code, so I figured I'd give it a shot) it works! The serial port works as expected now, too. The EEPROM holds some information necessary for running, like the LUN offset and some disk/tape configuration options that I haven't work out yet (though defaults are loaded if the EEPROM doesn't come up right). Given the amount of fallback for absent EEPROMs, I should probably be able to get this thing to run without one for the time being. >> > > Have you dug into the firmware enough to figure out where the serial > number is stored? My guess is that the serial number is stored > somewhere in the EEPROM. I wonder if the firmware provides any > mechanism to set the serial number in the EEPROM, or if the serial > number needs to be programmed into the EEPROM before it is installed > in the board. I did! It's in the lower bytes of words 3 and 4 in the EEPROM (LSB first). There's no mechanism I've seen for setting that in the firmware, but if you're already putting it in a ROM burner, you might as well fill it up. If it sees 0xFFFF for the serial number, it assumes the chip is erased and displays 0 instead of 65535. - Dave From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Nov 12 14:51:40 2011 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:51:40 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4EBEDC5C.6080401@heeltoe.com> On 11/12/2011 03:48 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > There are other things that I would like to see build into the FPGA: > A TS11 tape drive controller emulation that exposes a formated Pertec > interface on the pins of the FPGA. It would be trivial to build a level > shifter to drive a real Pertec interfaced tape drive to the FPGA. > The same for RX02, RL02, ... I put an RK05 interface on my verilog pdp-11. It wasn't hard - basically just a state machine for the ATA interface and one for the RK05 controller. I uses a real IDE disk as the actual disk. Wiring up an IDE drive to an S3 board is easy. I'm about to fab a few pcb's since my wire wrap board is becoming a little tattered. I did the same thing on my pdp-8/I; I made an RF08 controller which uses an IDE drive as a backing store. This is similar to what the POP-11 guys did - except they required that the disk image be written to the IDE disk in a weird way. I did the math in RTL so that a stock disk image could just be "dd'd" to the IDE disk. (a technique I learned from Eric :-) An RL02 controller should be straight forward. It has a few oddities (like the error fifo) but nothing complex. I never thought about using a real tape drive. interesting... -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 12 15:13:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:13:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBDC15D.6050308@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Nov 11, 11 07:44:13 pm Message-ID: > On some systems Ethernet is also fused (I once blew the Ethernet fuse on > a SPARCstation 1(+)... can't remember how). That fuse (it's a resettable circuit breaker on some DEC machines) protects the power to the transcier circuit. It's commonly present on machiens with AUI connectors (DA15s for an external transceiver) so that a short in the transceiver or drop cable doesn't do any damage. Since it's on the machine side of the isolation barrier, I don't think the eterhkiller would bbow it. I am not going to test that practically, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 12 15:19:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:19:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBDC4C2.3030203@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Nov 11, 11 07:58:42 pm Message-ID: > > I kinda had the opposite reaction. I figured that the whole > > "attaching > mains power to data connectors" was a sort of rite of passage... > something every geek has done at some point. I'd wager that most of us > have some kind of EtherKiller or related device hanging around, if only > for the shock value when someone else sees it. And, of course, for > demonstrating the meaning of the phrase "magic smoke". > > > > Was never the slightest bit tempted. Goes against my grain completely. Goes against my grain too. I spend far too much time restoring machines to want to deliberately damage stuff. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 12 16:51:40 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:51:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20111112211305.27fdbe90.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Nov 12, 11 09:13:05 pm" Message-ID: <201111122251.pACMpeCX014032@floodgap.com> > > Having a chip with an embedded IP stack is useful for a lot of things; > > Yes. But this has its own set of problems and limitations. It can be a > good tool, but only for its special set of applications. That said, this is clearly the future for small microcomputers, offloading the TCP overhead to a separate dedicated device. Commodore NICs are moving from Crystal 8900-type (RRNet) to Wiznet-type devices, for example. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't be humble ... you're not that great. -- Golda Meir ------------------- From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Nov 12 17:14:54 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:14:54 -0800 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4EBD9EE8.70407@brouhaha.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <20111111215525.284FDA7153@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4EBD9EE8.70407@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EBEFDEE.6030805@mindspring.com> On 11/11/2011 2:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dennis Boone wrote: > > The whois data for xx2247.org is illuminating. > > It is not obvious to me that there is any relation between xx2247.org and > XX2247 LLC. I'm not saying that there isn't such a relationship, just that I > don't see any reason to assume that there is one in the absence of more > information. > > > News / Gazette, The (Colorado Springs) / Apr 25, 2010 Incorporations XX2247 LLC - David T. Carroll, 13065 Pinery Drive. So... From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 12 17:25:53 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:25:53 -0800 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4EBEFDEE.6030805@mindspring.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <20111111215525.284FDA7153@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4EBD9EE8.70407@brouhaha.com> <4EBEFDEE.6030805@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4EBF0081.5070800@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. I wrote: > The only name I can find associated with it is Dave Carroll, > formerly of Mentec, formerly of DEC. Dennis Boone wrote: > The whois data for xx2247.org is illuminating. I wrote: > It is not obvious to me that there is any relation between > xx2247.org and XX2247 LLC. I'm not saying that there isn't > such a relationship, just that I don't see any reason to assume > that there is one in the absence of more information. Don North wrote: > XX2247 LLC - David T. Carroll, 13065 Pinery Drive. That's what I wrote earlier. It still doesn't demonstrate that there's any relationship between XX2247 LLC and xx2247.org, which is registered to John Wilson. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 12 18:59:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:59:29 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <201111122251.pACMpeCX014032@floodgap.com> References: <201111122251.pACMpeCX014032@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EBF1671.8090502@neurotica.com> On 11/12/2011 05:51 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Having a chip with an embedded IP stack is useful for a lot of things; >> >> Yes. But this has its own set of problems and limitations. It can be a >> good tool, but only for its special set of applications. > > That said, this is clearly the future for small microcomputers, offloading > the TCP overhead to a separate dedicated device. Commodore NICs are moving > from Crystal 8900-type (RRNet) to Wiznet-type devices, for example. In cases like the PDP-11, though, IP isn't necessarily the protocol of choice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Sat Nov 12 20:24:50 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:24:50 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> I wonder if someone can point me to what steps one needs to use this. I wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to take the source -> workable code. I found a gnu vhdl compiler that seems to do some things. also there is a macro11 assembler required, and i've never had that either. thanks JIm On 11/11/2011 2:52 AM, sytse van slooten wrote: > Today, 11-11-11, seems like a nice day to announce the availability of > yet another PDP-11 implementation in VHDL. > > I have created a website for my project, PDP2011 ? a re-creation of > the well known series of PDP-11 computer systems in VHDL. After nearly > four years of work, the project is almost finished; you can run a > complete Unibus PDP-11 system with console, disks and other > peripherals on a simple low cost FPGA development board. Original > operating system software, like V5-V7 versions of Unix and BSD 2.11 > work. > > I would like to invite you to come to > http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ > > > Regards > Sytse > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 12 21:37:39 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:37:39 -0500 Subject: MACRO-11 - Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4EBF3B83.5060706@telegraphics.com.au> On 12/11/11 9:24 PM, jim s wrote: > I wonder if someone can point me to what steps one needs to use this. I > wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to take the > source -> workable code. > > I found a gnu vhdl compiler that seems to do some things. > > also there is a macro11 assembler required, and i've never had that either. > A cross-assembler exists, fwiw: http://www.dbit.com/pub/linux/macro11/ --T > thanks > JIm > > On 11/11/2011 2:52 AM, sytse van slooten wrote: >> Today, 11-11-11, seems like a nice day to announce the availability of >> yet another PDP-11 implementation in VHDL. >> >> I have created a website for my project, PDP2011 ? a re-creation of >> the well known series of PDP-11 computer systems in VHDL. After nearly >> four years of work, the project is almost finished; you can run a >> complete Unibus PDP-11 system with console, disks and other >> peripherals on a simple low cost FPGA development board. Original >> operating system software, like V5-V7 versions of Unix and BSD 2.11 >> work. >> >> I would like to invite you to come to >> http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ >> >> >> >> Regards >> Sytse >> >> > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 22:04:44 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:04:44 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EBF1671.8090502@neurotica.com> References: <201111122251.pACMpeCX014032@floodgap.com> <4EBF1671.8090502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6A6BA106-0105-45EF-99F0-B6F4758B6A5D@gmail.com> On Nov 12, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/12/2011 05:51 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Having a chip with an embedded IP stack is useful for a lot of things; >>> >>> Yes. But this has its own set of problems and limitations. It can be a >>> good tool, but only for its special set of applications. >> >> That said, this is clearly the future for small microcomputers, offloading >> the TCP overhead to a separate dedicated device. Commodore NICs are moving >> from Crystal 8900-type (RRNet) to Wiznet-type devices, for example. > > In cases like the PDP-11, though, IP isn't necessarily the protocol of choice. I would even say it's *often* not the protocol of choice, especially in "real" installations. I could be wrong. OpenVMS on ia64 still supports DECNet, after all. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 22:41:22 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:41:22 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> On Nov 12, 2011, at 9:24 PM, jim s wrote: > I wonder if someone can point me to what steps one needs to use this. I wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to take the source -> workable code. > > I found a gnu vhdl compiler that seems to do some things. > > also there is a macro11 assembler required, and i've never had that either. Open source, no. But both Xilinx and Altera offer the compiler tools (runnable on Windows and Linux) needed to run on all their low-cost devices (and some of their high-end ones) for free; for Xilinx, it's called the ISE WebPack, and for Altera it's called the Quartus II Web Edition. Both are free for use. In addition, all of the Terasic boards (the Altera ones) mentioned on the guy's site have the FPGA JTAG programmers built into the board; all you need is the USB cable (which most of them come with). I can personally vouch for the DE1; I have two of them and I love them to pieces, even if they are getting a little long in the tooth. The DE0 Nano will get you a lot more FPGA for half the money, but it's a little harder to interface to. The DE0 is a nice point in between them as far as price and features, but it has a little less FPGA than I'd like (that said, you can do an awful lot in 15k LEs). The GNU VHDL compiler is fine for simulation, but it's not meant for hardware implementation; typically, that sort of thing has to be done with vendor-specific tools (some tools, like Icarus Verilog, will produce netlist intermediates (similar to object files) which the vendor tools can turn into hardware, but it's not common amongst free tools). Macro11 is the PDP-11 assembler. Older versions of GCC and GNU binutils (up to either 4.4 or 4.5, IIRC) still had PDP-11 tools you could build, though I don't think the PDP-11 gas (GNU assembler) is Macro11 compatible. I haven't yet looked at the source (no time so far), but I would assume it comes with project files (.qpf for the Altera ones) which the tools can open and build. I should warn you: coming from a pure software background into FPGA development is a very sharp transition. It's not software, no matter how much my company's clients might like to think it is. It doesn't work the same way at all; "software people" can learn FPGA design, but they will have to un-learn a lot of assumptions about code before it makes any sense. It's honestly a lot more like writing up the netlist to a circuit board at a slightly higher level. - Dave - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 12 23:17:59 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:17:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to take >> the source -> workable code. > Open source, no. But both Xilinx and Altera offer the compiler tools > (runnable on Windows and Linux) needed to run on all their low-cost > devices (and some of their high-end ones) for free; ...except that you have to (a) be willing to run either Windows or Linux, (b) run on their choice of hardware, and either (c1) set up a very heavily firewalled sacrificial system or (c2) trust the security of your system to code they aren't even willing to let you look at. I'm not willing to do (c2) at all, and not willing to do either (a) or (c1) unless I'm getting paid a fair bit to do so ((b) might join (a) and (c1), if their required hardware is something I don't have, though that's highly unlikely). I'm much less concerned about tools than I am about documentation on the hardware's interface, on what the bits in the blob thrown at the hardware mean (and how to thrown them at it, though that part is much more likely to be documented). I would probably find open-source tools useful mainly as hardware documentation, though if they are properly designed I might be able to pull off their UI and stick on something I find usable. I'd love to get into FPGA hacking. But not nearly enough so to tolerate something as abusive towards their users as "you have to run our closed-source code". :-? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 12 23:30:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:30:37 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EBF55FD.4060105@neurotica.com> On 11/13/2011 12:17 AM, Mouse wrote: > I'm much less concerned about tools than I am about documentation on > the hardware's interface, on what the bits in the blob thrown at the > hardware mean (and how to thrown them at it, though that part is much > more likely to be documented). I would probably find open-source tools > useful mainly as hardware documentation, though if they are properly > designed I might be able to pull off their UI and stick on something I > find usable. The Xilinx FPGA tool suite, at least, can be driven from Makefiles. Fast, efficient, predictable, automatable...very nice indeed. You don't HAVE to use their bloated, lumbering IDE. ra$ du -sh /usr/local/Xilinx 13G /usr/local/Xilinx ra$ -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Nov 13 02:06:16 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:06:16 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EBEDC5C.6080401@heeltoe.com> References: <99385D03-F3A0-4968-98D3-404759AB73C6@gmail.com> <20111112094840.e9afc88a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EBEDC5C.6080401@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20111113090616.48fbd3ed.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:51:40 -0500 Brad Parker wrote: > I never thought about using a real tape drive. interesting... ... or floppy drive, or TU56, ... Connecting real peripherals can recreate some of the original user experience. Most impotant: It can be very usefull to transfer and archive data from original, old media. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 13 02:25:56 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:25:56 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EBF7F14.7070203@brouhaha.com> Mouse wrote about FPGA development tools: > ...except that you have to (a) be willing to run either Windows or > Linux, (b) run on their choice of hardware, and either (c1) set up a > very heavily firewalled sacrificial system or (c2) trust the security > of your system to code they aren't even willing to let you look at. > > I'm not willing to do (c2) at all, and not willing to do either (a) or > (c1) unless I'm getting paid a fair bit to do so ((b) might join (a) > and (c1), if their required hardware is something I don't have, though > that's highly unlikely). Better get used to not doing FPGA development, because the situation is not likely to change any time soon. EDA tools for FPGAs is a very hard problem, far more complex than e.g. schematic capture or PCB layout, and after quite a few years of people working on those, the results are somewhat usable but nowhere comparable to commercial tools. Altera and Xilinx have invested literally thousands of many-years into their tools, and it is unlikely that anyone is going to develop a comparable open-source alternative in the foreseeable future. Note that if you use any PCI/PCIe/PCI Express/Expresscard/PCCard Wifi interface or RAID card in your computer (with very few exceptions), you are already trusting the security of your system to closed-source code, which is the firmware that runs on the processor(s) embedded in the card. For >99% of those cards, the closed-source firmware has the potential to access any memory in your computer and do anything with it. USB Wifi cards, if they have an open-source driver, avoid that potential security problem. For that matter, the latest Intel and AMD processors have a fair bit of closed-source microcode, and you have no way to verify that there isn't any kind of back door embedded in those, perhaps at the behest of a Three Letter Agency. > I'm much less concerned about tools than I am about documentation on > the hardware's interface, on what the bits in the blob thrown at the > hardware mean Xilinx tried selling a line of FPGAs for which the configuration bitstream details were publicly documented, the XC6200 series, and no one bought it. The reality is that 99.9999% of the customers are perfectly happy to feed Verilog and/or VHDL into the FPGA vendor's toolchain, and don't care what comes out as long as it works. The closest you'll get with Xilinx is the "FPGA Editor", which lets you view and modify an intermediate low-level logical view of the part that doesn't exactly match the physical bits that go into the FPGA, but which the tools can translate into the actual hardware configuration bitstream. (The tools do NOT offer a reverse translation.) I don't know whether Altera offers comparable (or better) tools for dealing with their parts at a low level. > (and how to thrown them at it, though that part is much > more likely to be documented). Yes, Xilinx and Altera document the configuration interface(s) pretty well. > I'd love to get into FPGA hacking. But not nearly enough so to > tolerate something as abusive towards their users as "you have to run > our closed-source code". :-? Unfortunately there are so few customers or potential customers that feel that way, so it isn't really even on their radar. Eric From radioengr at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 03:23:01 2011 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:23:01 -0700 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EBF8C75.4000505@gmail.com> On 11/12/2011 9:41 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 12, 2011, at 9:24 PM, jim s wrote: > >> I wonder if someone can point me to what steps one needs to use this. I wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to take the source -> workable code. >> >> I found a gnu vhdl compiler that seems to do some things. >> >> also there is a macro11 assembler required, and i've never had that either. > > Open source, no. But both Xilinx and Altera offer the compiler tools (runnable on Windows and Linux) needed to run on all their low-cost devices (and some of their high-end ones) for free; for Xilinx, it's called the ISE WebPack, and for Altera it's called the Quartus II Web Edition. Both are free for use. > > In addition, all of the Terasic boards (the Altera ones) mentioned on the guy's site have the FPGA JTAG programmers built into the board; all you need is the USB cable (which most of them come with). I can personally vouch for the DE1; I have two of them and I love them to pieces, even if they are getting a little long in the tooth. The DE0 Nano will get you a lot more FPGA for half the money, but it's a little harder to interface to. The DE0 is a nice point in between them as far as price and features, but it has a little less FPGA than I'd like (that said, you can do an awful lot in 15k LEs). > > The GNU VHDL compiler is fine for simulation, but it's not meant for hardware implementation; typically, that sort of thing has to be done with vendor-specific tools (some tools, like Icarus Verilog, will produce netlist intermediates (similar to object files) which the vendor tools can turn into hardware, but it's not common amongst free tools). > > Macro11 is the PDP-11 assembler. Older versions of GCC and GNU binutils (up to either 4.4 or 4.5, IIRC) still had PDP-11 tools you could build, though I don't think the PDP-11 gas (GNU assembler) is Macro11 compatible. > > I haven't yet looked at the source (no time so far), but I would assume it comes with project files (.qpf for the Altera ones) which the tools can open and build. > > I should warn you: coming from a pure software background into FPGA development is a very sharp transition. It's not software, no matter how much my company's clients might like to think it is. It doesn't work the same way at all; "software people" can learn FPGA design, but they will have to un-learn a lot of assumptions about code before it makes any sense. It's honestly a lot more like writing up the netlist to a circuit board at a slightly higher level. > > - Dave Regarding GHDL - the GNU VHDL Compiler: I do a fair bit of simulation of my PDP-8 using GHDL. It compiles code 10x faster than any other tool I've ever seen - so it's nice for doing syntax checks. GHDL is a compiler, as such it compiles VHDL directly into an executable (in Linux, at least) so it executes very fast. You can do weird things like link VHDL with C/C++/ADA code. I plan to use that feature to do an FFT analysis on the data produced by an FPGA doing some DSP work. Since is just a compiler, GHDL cannot synthesize anything. It's perfect for building a PDP-8 simulator. Write the RTL of the guts in VHDL, wrapper the guts with a simulation environment using your favorite high-level language. The simulation environment could have disk drives, virtual TTYs, other devices, debugging hooks, trace buffers, logic analyzers. When you're happy with how the guts work, synthesize it. If SIMH had only been written in VHDL... Its weekness is that too many types of errors (two sources driving a net, for example) cause it to 'core dump' instead of producing a meaningful error message. When that happens, it's time to use one of the other tools to debug. The author and a couple of gurus are around and answer questions - so it's supported as well as anything. GHDL is not the solution to every problem but it is a useful tool in the toolbox. Rob. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 13 07:11:04 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 06:11:04 -0700 Subject: [B205] burroughs clearing house bound set. for trade- gotta be something great! In-Reply-To: <52a8d.7eb1bb3.3be778be@aol.com> References: <52a8d.7eb1bb3.3be778be@aol.com> Message-ID: <4EBFC1E8.3070505@jetnet.ab.ca> from: COURYHOUSE at aol.com > Burroughs clearing house bound set. for trade- gotta be something great! > Actually we are more in the mood for TV studio stuff... but will listen > to anything > here are the guidelines... > respond off list > send photos and details > Thanks, > > Ed Sharpe, Archivist for SMECC > > See the Museum's Web Site at www.smecc.org From ray at arachelian.com Sun Nov 13 12:03:04 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:03:04 -0500 Subject: BOFH "Etherkiller" Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC00658.3070803@arachelian.com> On 11/11/2011 12:39 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Somewhere around here I have a mains to RJ45 cord :) someone once bet > me that I couldn't kill a 10 base t NIC without resorting to > high-voltage (stungun type voltage) I won that bet :) Sorry, just had to be done. Relax, it's from 1977, it's very much retro. :-D I can't seem to face up to the facts I'm tense and nervous and I Can't relax I can't sleep 'cause my net's on fire Don't touch me I'm a real live wire Ether Killer Qu'est-ce que c'est fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better Run run run run run run run away Ether Killer Qu'est-ce que c'est fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better Run run run run run run run away You SYN a conversation you can't even FIN it. You're talkin' a lot, but you're not sayin' anything. When I have NULL to say, my ports are sealed. ACK something once, why ACK it again? Ether Killer, Qu'est-ce que c'est fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better Run run run run run run run away Ether Killer Qu'est-ce que c'est fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better Run run run run run run run away Ce que j'ai fais, ce soir la Ce qu'elle a dit, ce soir la Realisant mon espoir Je me lance, vers la gloire ... OK We are fried and we are blind I hate computers when they're not polite Ether Killer, Qu'est-ce que c'est fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better Run run run run run run run away Ether Killer, Qu'est-ce que c'est fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better Run run run run run run run away oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh.... From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 10:45:11 2011 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:45:11 -0500 Subject: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the record: Mains power applied to an RJ11 connector plugged into a netgear 10/100 PCI ethernet card produced pretty, multicolored sparks and causes the card to physically jump. and the middle of the cable to blow apart half a second after due to poor construction of the cable.... Version 2.0 will have better insulation at the cable splice point! ..... IDE harddrives provide the best light show, (blow out at least 3 chips). SCSI harddrive just provided a single regulator explosion. DVD-ROM drive had a big shower of sparks, but that was all it had. ..... beer, hackerspace, saturday night. What more could you ask for? On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > At least one. ?I call it my "serial killer". ?Supplies mains voltage to every alternate pin on a DB25. >> >> Sounds suspiciously like the BOFH's EtherKiller, the mains cord with a >> BNC plug on the other end. > > > THat would do suprisignly little damage I think. Ethernet conencotrs are > isolated from the rest of the machine (the traceiver chip is on the > conencotr side of the isolation barrier), so applyging mains to the BNC > connector (or indeed the 8p8c [1] of twisted-pair ethernet) will kil lthe > transciver chip, possibly the isolation transformern and DC-DC converter, > but will dont get much further. > > [1] It's not RJ45 damnit! > > Applying mains to na RS23 2connecotr could end up blowing out chips all > over the machine.... > > And while both D-seires nad BNC connectors are rated for votlages bove > mains, I do have a problem with having one side of the mains connected ot > the metal shell of a BNC plug. > > -tony > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 12:22:54 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:22:54 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2011, at 12:17 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> I wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to take >>> the source -> workable code. > >> Open source, no. But both Xilinx and Altera offer the compiler tools >> (runnable on Windows and Linux) needed to run on all their low-cost >> devices (and some of their high-end ones) for free; > > ...except that you have to (a) be willing to run either Windows or > Linux, (b) run on their choice of hardware, and either (c1) set up a > very heavily firewalled sacrificial system or (c2) trust the security > of your system to code they aren't even willing to let you look at. > > I'm not willing to do (c2) at all, and not willing to do either (a) or > (c1) unless I'm getting paid a fair bit to do so ((b) might join (a) > and (c1), if their required hardware is something I don't have, though > that's highly unlikely). That's great, and I'm with you in that I'd much rather see open source tools for this. However, the devices themselves and their configuration details are generally closely-held trade secrets, so closed vendor tools are what we've got. If you're not willing to run Windows or Linux to develop FPGAs, you better be satisfied with only simulation. > I'm much less concerned about tools than I am about documentation on > the hardware's interface, on what the bits in the blob thrown at the > hardware mean (and how to thrown them at it, though that part is much > more likely to be documented). I would probably find open-source tools > useful mainly as hardware documentation, though if they are properly > designed I might be able to pull off their UI and stick on something I > find usable. I would love that. For my master's thesis, I'd hoped to gain some insight into the configuration bitstreams so I could configure the FPGA as a neural network dynamically. I got a very flat "no, and if you try to reverse engineer our bitstreams there may be trouble" answer from the major vendors. It would be nice to see someone make more open silicon, but without literally billions of dollars and thousands of employees, you couldn't hope to compete with the major players on performance (or even performance per watt), or in the marketplace. It's a sad aspect of the Free Market(tm), I guess. There is as much money and R&D poured into developing FPGA silicon as there is in memory and CPUs; those three are basically the main areas TSMC (and a few other foundries) focus their efforts on. > I'd love to get into FPGA hacking. But not nearly enough so to > tolerate something as abusive towards their users as "you have to run > our closed-source code". :-? There's always simulation. You can go a long way in simulation (in fact, you should) and have someone else implement it in an FPGA (if you've done your job right and read the synthesis manual, they shouldn't even need to tweak your code), and there are definitely open-source ASIC design tools. Icarus Verilog will even synthesize to a netlist intermediate, but that still requires closed vendor tools to turn it into a hardware implementation. I would also say that closed-source design implementation tools aren't as abusive towards the users as you might think; it's really just a proprietary translation using optimization algorithms they've spent millions of dollars on. While I think there's a case to be made that they could offer the source for money (like DEC did for most of their OSes), it would be a hard sell. You're welcome to lobby them; I'd support that effort. I think it could improve the ecosystem; I think the existence of cheap, GCC-based developer tools has bolstered the sales of ARM chips, for example, much more than Keil or IAR would like to admit. It'll be an uphill battle, though, because you have to convince the people who just want to make money that it will make them more money (I can tell you categorically that they are not interested in goodwill from the community, nor are they interested in hobbyists; they are interested in military and telecom sockets, because that's where their money comes from). - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 13 12:43:01 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:43:01 -0700 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/13/2011 11:22 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 13, 2011, at 12:17 AM, Mouse wrote: > >>>> I wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to >>>> take the source -> workable code. >> >>> Open source, no. But both Xilinx and Altera offer the compiler >>> tools (runnable on Windows and Linux) needed to run on all their >>> low-cost devices (and some of their high-end ones) for free; >> >> ...except that you have to (a) be willing to run either Windows or >> Linux, (b) run on their choice of hardware, and either (c1) set up >> a very heavily firewalled sacrificial system or (c2) trust the >> security of your system to code they aren't even willing to let you >> look at. >> >> I'm not willing to do (c2) at all, and not willing to do either (a) >> or (c1) unless I'm getting paid a fair bit to do so ((b) might join >> (a) and (c1), if their required hardware is something I don't have, >> though that's highly unlikely). > > That's great, and I'm with you in that I'd much rather see open > source tools for this. However, the devices themselves and their > configuration details are generally closely-held trade secrets, so > closed vendor tools are what we've got. If you're not willing to run > Windows or Linux to develop FPGAs, you better be satisfied with only > simulation. > >> I'm much less concerned about tools than I am about documentation >> on the hardware's interface, on what the bits in the blob thrown at >> the hardware mean (and how to thrown them at it, though that part >> is much more likely to be documented). I would probably find >> open-source tools useful mainly as hardware documentation, though >> if they are properly designed I might be able to pull off their UI >> and stick on something I find usable. > > I would love that. For my master's thesis, I'd hoped to gain some > insight into the configuration bitstreams so I could configure the > FPGA as a neural network dynamically. I got a very flat "no, and if > you try to reverse engineer our bitstreams there may be trouble" > answer from the major vendors. > > It would be nice to see someone make more open silicon, but without > literally billions of dollars and thousands of employees, you > couldn't hope to compete with the major players on performance (or > even performance per watt), or in the marketplace. It's a sad aspect > of the Free Market(tm), I guess. There is as much money and R&D > poured into developing FPGA silicon as there is in memory and CPUs; > those three are basically the main areas TSMC (and a few other > foundries) focus their efforts on. > >> I'd love to get into FPGA hacking. But not nearly enough so to >> tolerate something as abusive towards their users as "you have to >> run our closed-source code". :-? > > There's always simulation. You can go a long way in simulation (in > fact, you should) and have someone else implement it in an FPGA (if > you've done your job right and read the synthesis manual, they > shouldn't even need to tweak your code), and there are definitely > open-source ASIC design tools. Icarus Verilog will even synthesize > to a netlist intermediate, but that still requires closed vendor > tools to turn it into a hardware implementation. > > I would also say that closed-source design implementation tools > aren't as abusive towards the users as you might think; it's really > just a proprietary translation using optimization algorithms they've > spent millions of dollars on. While I think there's a case to be > made that they could offer the source for money (like DEC did for > most of their OSes), it would be a hard sell. > > You're welcome to lobby them; I'd support that effort. I think it > could improve the ecosystem; I think the existence of cheap, > GCC-based developer tools has bolstered the sales of ARM chips, for > example, much more than Keil or IAR would like to admit. It'll be an > uphill battle, though, because you have to convince the people who > just want to make money that it will make them more money (I can tell > you categorically that they are not interested in goodwill from the > community, nor are they interested in hobbyists; they are interested > in military and telecom sockets, because that's where their money > comes from). > My beef is that all the low cost boards, still needed to connected the PC for use. You can't burn and go. > - Dave > Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 13 13:00:18 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:00:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111131900.OAA22247@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I would also say that closed-source design implementation tools > aren't as abusive towards the users as you might think; it's really > just a proprietary translation using optimization algorithms they've > spent millions of dollars on. Note I would be satisifed with documentation on the bitstrings; they are welcome to keep their silly-ass optimization algorithms to themselves so long as they tell me enough to let me use the hardware. This is like a CPU whose machine code is undocumented "just use our compiler", `justified' by saying the compiler has had a lot of work put into it. That justifies, maybe, keeping the compiler closed; it does not justify keeping the machine code closed. This also has nothing to do with how abuseive it is to expect customers to either turn the security of their machines over to the vendor, a vendor which has no particular reason to care about getting it right and no particular expertise in doing so, or set up a sacrificial machine to run their binary blob on. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 13 12:13:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:13:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 13, 11 00:17:59 am Message-ID: > > >> I wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to take > >> the source -> workable code. > > > Open source, no. But both Xilinx and Altera offer the compiler tools > > (runnable on Windows and Linux) needed to run on all their low-cost > > devices (and some of their high-end ones) for free; > > ...except that you have to (a) be willing to run either Windows or > Linux, (b) run on their choice of hardware, and either (c1) set up a > very heavily firewalled sacrificial system or (c2) trust the security > of your system to code they aren't even willing to let you look at. As far as I know there is no complete open FPGA (or even CPLD). By 'completely open' I mean that there is sufficient docuemtation available (without an NDA) to go from a design (be that as a schematic, a wirelist, VHDL, whatever) to the necessary data to program into the chip, and be able to actually program that data into the chip. This is in contract to microcontrollers where in many cases the machine code (and special-purpose registers, I/O ports, etc) is fully documented, as is the way to get the object code into the chip (e.g. by ysing a JTAG interface). It is quite possible to write an aassembler (or programmer) and program loader for such devices. > > I'm not willing to do (c2) at all, and not willing to do either (a) or > (c1) unless I'm getting paid a fair bit to do so ((b) might join (a) > and (c1), if their required hardware is something I don't have, though > that's highly unlikely). > > I'm much less concerned about tools than I am about documentation on > the hardware's interface, on what the bits in the blob thrown at the > hardware mean (and how to thrown them at it, though that part is much > more likely to be documented). I would probably find open-source tools In the case of the FPGAs I've looked at, the actual way to get the data into the chip is docuemtned, but what all the bits mean is not. > useful mainly as hardware documentation, though if they are properly > designed I might be able to pull off their UI and stick on something I > find usable. > > I'd love to get into FPGA hacking. But not nearly enough so to > tolerate something as abusive towards their users as "you have to run > our closed-source code". :-=FE >From a _hobbyist_ perspective, I am not sure you're missing much. I've designed with FPGas as part of a job, and didn't enjoy it much. It is very different from designing logic cirucitry the old-fashioned way for a start. For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to grab a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 13 13:16:27 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:16:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111131916.OAA22592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'd love to get into FPGA hacking. But not nearly enough so to >> tolerate [..] "you have to run our closed-source code". :-? > From a _hobbyist_ perspective, I am not sure you're missing much. > I've designed with FPGas as part of a job, and didn't enjoy it much. > It is very different from designing logic cirucitry the old-fashioned > way for a start. That's somewhat reassuring, though of course I'd have to actually try it to tell for sure whether I share your reaction. Still, though... > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to > grab a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. ...for small things, so would I. (Well, I'd probably start with solderless breadboarding in most cases.) But for something requiring many thousands of gates, like, oh, say, a PDP-11 CPU, to pick a totally random example :), that's not quite so practical. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Nov 13 13:22:56 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:22:56 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC01910.9020907@bluewin.ch> >From a _hobbyist_ perspective, I am not sure you're missing much. > I've designed with FPGas as part of a job, and didn't enjoy it much. Try them again, as I suspect you experience is with very old FPGA families . They have come a long way. > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to grab a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. That will severely and unnecessessary limit both design size and speed. Jos From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Nov 13 13:52:30 2011 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:52:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:13:44 +0000 (GMT) > From: Tony Duell > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VHDL PDP11 > >> >>>> I wonder if there is open source / reasonably priced tools to take >>>> the source -> workable code. >> >>> Open source, no. But both Xilinx and Altera offer the compiler tools >>> (runnable on Windows and Linux) needed to run on all their low-cost >>> devices (and some of their high-end ones) for free; >> >> ...except that you have to (a) be willing to run either Windows or >> Linux, (b) run on their choice of hardware, and either (c1) set up a >> very heavily firewalled sacrificial system or (c2) trust the security >> of your system to code they aren't even willing to let you look at. > > As far as I know there is no complete open FPGA (or even CPLD). By > 'completely open' I mean that there is sufficient docuemtation available > (without an NDA) to go from a design (be that as a schematic, a wirelist, > VHDL, whatever) to the necessary data to program into the chip, and be > able to actually program that data into the chip. While this is true of current FPGAs, I dont think this is completely true, the Xilinx XC6200 and perhaps some other manufacturers chips have this information available. Also there are some brave souls poking about at open source tools as well, for example: www.milkymist.org/fpgatools > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 13 14:18:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:18:21 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EBF8C75.4000505@gmail.com> References: , <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com>, <4EBF8C75.4000505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EBFB58D.14300.9618BE@cclist.sydex.com> On 11/12/2011 9:41 PM, David Riley wrote: > I should warn you: coming from a pure software background into FPGA > development is a very sharp transition. It's not software, no > matter how much my company's clients might like to think it is. It > doesn't work the same way at all; "software people" can learn FPGA > design, but they will have to un-learn a lot of assumptions about > code before it makes any sense. It's honestly a lot more like > writing up the netlist to a circuit board at a slightly higher > level. It depends. I find HDL to be the first cousin to Dataflow architecture. (e.g. constrast "normal" software programming with programming a NEC 7281). Once I got that through my head, things got a lot easier. Of course, I'm also very strange... --Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Nov 13 14:26:35 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:26:35 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC027FB.4000905@mindspring.com> On 11/13/2011 10:43 AM, ben wrote: > > > My beef is that all the low cost boards, still needed to connected the PC > for use. You can't burn and go. > >> - Dave >> > Ben. Really not true. All the low cost boards I am familiar with (Altera based DE0, DE0 Nano, DE1 from Terasic, Spartan 3 boards from Digilent) all have embedded flash EEPROM for image storage. During development and testing you can download directly from the host PC into device configuration RAM for testing, but when you are ready to 'burn' the image you just program it into the serial EEPROM which is loaded at next power on. Don From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 13 14:26:47 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:26:47 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> ben wrote about FPGA boards: > My beef is that all the low cost boards, still needed to connected the PC > for use. You can't burn and go. I've got about a dozen low-cost boards from the fairly ancient Spartan 2 through the latest Spartan 6, and not a one of them doesn't have nonvolatile memory into which you can program the configuration bitstream. What low-cost boards have you looked at that don't have nonvolatile memory? From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Nov 13 14:33:08 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:33:08 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EBF55FD.4060105@neurotica.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EBF55FD.4060105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC02984.6010600@mindspring.com> On 11/12/2011 9:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/13/2011 12:17 AM, Mouse wrote: >> I'm much less concerned about tools than I am about documentation on >> the hardware's interface, on what the bits in the blob thrown at the >> hardware mean (and how to thrown them at it, though that part is much >> more likely to be documented). I would probably find open-source tools >> useful mainly as hardware documentation, though if they are properly >> designed I might be able to pull off their UI and stick on something I >> find usable. > > The Xilinx FPGA tool suite, at least, can be driven from Makefiles. Fast, > efficient, predictable, automatable...very nice indeed. You don't HAVE to use > their bloated, lumbering IDE. > > ra$ du -sh /usr/local/Xilinx > 13G /usr/local/Xilinx > ra$ > > -Dave > Works for Altera, too. I do it on Windows with cygwin. 'make generate' and then load the programming file when done. I know I could probably setup the makefile to do the steps only as needed, but I have not really found it to be worthwhile (since most changes are to the verilog source, which requires a complete rebuild anyway). DESIGN=DE0_PDP8 TOOLS=/cygdrive/c/tools/altera/10.1sp1/quartus/bin generate:: $(TOOLS)/quartus_map $(DESIGN) --write_settings_files=off $(TOOLS)/quartus_fit $(DESIGN) --write_settings_files=off --seed=1 $(TOOLS)/quartus_asm $(DESIGN) --write_settings_files=off $(TOOLS)/quartus_sta $(DESIGN) $(TOOLS)/quartus_sta -t generate_timing.tcl $(DESIGN) 10 $(TOOLS)/quartus_eda $(DESIGN) --write_settings_files=off -c $(DESIGN) $(TOOLS)/quartus_cpf -c $(DESIGN).cof clean:: -rm -f $(DESIGN).*.rpt $(DESIGN).*.summary $(DESIGN).*.smsg $(DESIGN).map $(DESIGN)_assignment_defaults.qdf TQ_*.rpt PLL*.txt -rm -f $(DESIGN).done $(DESIGN).map $(DESIGN).pof $(DESIGN).sof $(DESIGN).jic $(DESIGN).pin $(DESIGN).jdi $(DESIGN).qws $(DESIGN).*.ddb -rm -rf db incremental_db simulation # the end From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 13 14:29:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:29:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 13, 11 01:22:54 pm Message-ID: > That's great, and I'm with you in that I'd much rather see open source to= > ols for this. However, the devices themselves and their configuration de= > tails are generally closely-held trade secrets, so closed vendor tools ar= And this is what bothers me _a lot_. If the device is not fully documented (as in, if I cann not predict its behavious when I load a paritcular configuration file)m, then I can't know excatly what it is doing to my design. So when my deisgn doesn't work, I am left trusting that the manufacutrers tools and devices both work properly . Which is certainyl somethign that I am not prepared to do. I want to know just what is going wrong and why (nost likely -- 99.999% of the time -- it's my desing that's wrong, but I want to be able to be sure of that). > e what we've got. If you're not willing to run Windows or Linux to devel= > op FPGAs, you better be satisfied with only simulation. Or do what I enjoy and use a soldering iron not a compiler... > It would be nice to see someone make more open silicon, but without liter= Actually IIRC there was one device that looked possible (Xilinx XC6000 series). It had very simple logic blocks and it was fully docuemtned. The only problem was it weas discontinued before the UK distributors got any of them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 13 14:04:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:04:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <201111131916.OAA22592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 13, 11 02:16:27 pm Message-ID: > > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to > > grab a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. > > ...for small things, so would I. (Well, I'd probably start with > solderless breadboarding in most cases.) But for something requiring And I'd avoid those like the plague, I dislike stray cpaacitance and unreliable contacts. I increased my designing speed no end when I started soldering things up from the start. > many thousands of gates, like, oh, say, a PDP-11 CPU, to pick a totally > random example :), that's not quite so practical. I am not convinced. A PDP11/05 is just 2 hex cards. Perhaps a couple of hundred packages. That's easily doable (as in I've built things of that sort of complexity). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 13 14:22:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:22:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC01910.9020907@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Nov 13, 11 08:22:56 pm Message-ID: > > >From a _hobbyist_ perspective, I am not sure you're missing much. > > I've designed with FPGas as part of a job, and didn't enjoy it much. > > Try them again, as I suspect you experience is with very old FPGA > families . They have come a long way. I do get moderately annoyed with people who tell me what I should and should not enjoy :-). If you are paying me to design soemthing, then I'll use very difrenet desing criteria and devices to what I'll do if I am doing it for myself. In the latter case maximising my pleasure comes a long way up the list. I do not enjoy (really) doing anything much at a computer screen. I don';t like programing, I don't like entering VHDL, I don't like scheamtic capture. I am happiest using a pen and paper and a soldering iron. As I said, it's for myself, I do it becuase I enjoy it, so I use the methods I enjoy. In what way have the deives improved? > > > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to > grab a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. > > That will severely and unnecessessary limit both design size and speed. I totally disagree with the first (having built things with a few hundred pacakges (at least). And as for the second, OK, I'll grab some ECL (I#'ve hand-wired ECL circuits that go at sevearl hundred MHz with no problems). Quite apart from the fact that as I said at the start 'for me as a hobbyist'. I may not want ot make large or high-speed designs (and what appears to require high speed logic may not if you actually think about the problem). -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 13 15:01:45 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:01:45 -0700 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/13/2011 1:26 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ben wrote about FPGA boards: > > My beef is that all the low cost boards, still needed to connected > the PC > > for use. You can't burn and go. > > I've got about a dozen low-cost boards from the fairly ancient Spartan 2 > through the latest Spartan 6, and not a one of them doesn't have > nonvolatile memory into which you can program the configuration > bitstream. What low-cost boards have you looked at that don't have > nonvolatile memory? > Remember this is the classic computer list so, being about 10 years behind is normal around here. What can you recommend that has 5 volt I/O, nonvolatile memory and mid-sized number of FPGA macro cells. Something one can use to emulate a PDP computer with up to 512Kb of memory. Ben. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 13 15:01:48 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:01:48 -0800 Subject: uPD7281 (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: <4EBFB58D.14300.9618BE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com>, <4EBF8C75.4000505@gmail.com> <4EBFB58D.14300.9618BE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC0303C.8050902@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > (e.g. constrast "normal" software programming with > programming a NEC 7281). I hadn't seen that before, so I just found a datasheet. Looks intriguing. Is there a user manual for the part? I couldn't find any data on the apparently related uPD9305. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 13 15:02:34 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:02:34 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC0306A.2090700@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I do get moderately annoyed with people who tell me what I should and > should not enjoy You should enjoy that! From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 15:24:38 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:24:38 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <09EA098E-D267-42F1-9167-C42D05E6B345@gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2011, at 1:43 PM, ben wrote: > My beef is that all the low cost boards, still needed to connected the PC > for use. You can't burn and go. Not the Terasic ones I've used; they all have configuration PROMs on board ?ou can burn so that the board boots with whatever you programmed in there. - From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 15:30:29 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:30:29 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2011, at 1:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > As far as I know there is no complete open FPGA (or even CPLD). By > 'completely open' I mean that there is sufficient docuemtation available > (without an NDA) to go from a design (be that as a schematic, a wirelist, > VHDL, whatever) to the necessary data to program into the chip, and be > able to actually program that data into the chip. > > This is in contract to microcontrollers where in many cases the machine > code (and special-purpose registers, I/O ports, etc) is fully documented, > as is the way to get the object code into the chip (e.g. by ysing a JTAG > interface). It is quite possible to write an aassembler (or programmer) > and program loader for such devices. I should point out, too, that FPGAs are a comparatively young field. The first ones were released in 1992 IIRC... CPLDs are a bit older and have a lot more in common with PALs, which in turn have a lot more in common with ROMs. It's not impossible for the industry to change tracks in the future (certainly something I'd like to see). >> I'd love to get into FPGA hacking. But not nearly enough so to >> tolerate something as abusive towards their users as "you have to run >> our closed-source code". :-=FE > > From a _hobbyist_ perspective, I am not sure you're missing much. I've > designed with FPGas as part of a job, and didn't enjoy it much. It is > very different from designing logic cirucitry the old-fashioned way for a > start. > > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to grab > a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. >From that standpoint, I'd say you'd have almost as much fun with simulation as with the real hardware. The real hardware is a much bigger headache than simulation, because unlike simulation and a board full of TTL chips, you can't go in and probe specific nodes without rebuilding the design. That said, I do FPGAs for a living and I enjoy working on them from a hobbyist perspective, but largely because I don't have a huge library of TTL parts at my disposal (and it's expensive to acquire them all at once, and decent wire-wrap boards are hard to come by at least in the US, etc). The availability of nice FPGA eval boards (like the Terasic ones, which I absolutely love) make it attractive to me. I'm still working on my 68000 SBC, but it's mostly in concept only until I can find a decent source of wire wrap boards (the kind with traces, not just bare phenolic) around here. - Dave From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 15:50:00 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:50:00 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 15:29, Tony Duell wrote: > And this is what bothers me _a lot_. If the device is not fully > documented (as in, if I cann not predict its behavious when I load a > paritcular configuration file)m, then I can't know excatly what it is > doing to my design. So when my deisgn doesn't work, I am left trusting > that the manufacutrers tools and devices both work properly . Which is > certainyl somethign that I am not prepared to do. I want to know just > what is going wrong and why (nost likely -- 99.999% of the time -- it's > my desing that's wrong, but I want to be able to be sure of that). I'm a bit new to the FPGA field but AFAICT the tools (at least Xlinix) do tell you _how_ your design is implemented on the FPGA: this pin is connected to that logic block, which is located there (physically on the chip), connected on these lines... The logic elements are are documented, at least as well as a typical 74xx chip. So, once you have run the tools and have generated the bitstream you should know very precisely how each signal is connected to each other. You may not know how the bitstream encodes the connections and the LUT tables, but if you trust that the tool tells you accurately what is encoded, you should have a known wiring on the FPGA. But by his noodliness, the GUI Xilinx IDE is a hog. I'm running it on an older Windows box in our Lab and it just crawls - but a) I _am_ in the situation where I can only dump the configuration onto the chip from a windows box (because I am cheap and only have the parallel cable) and b) when I last tried to run the Linux version of the IDE on my main computer (quite powerful and gobs of RAM) it was an unholy crappy mess. This may have been version 11, so maybe it's gotten better - but for now I'll avoid polluting my filesystem with it. Oh, and let's not even talk about the licensing legalese of the "free" WebPack. Please. Keyboards might get broken and screens smashed. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem1 From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Nov 13 15:56:27 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:56:27 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC03D0B.6010407@mindspring.com> On 11/13/2011 1:01 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/13/2011 1:26 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> ben wrote about FPGA boards: >> > My beef is that all the low cost boards, still needed to connected >> the PC >> > for use. You can't burn and go. >> >> I've got about a dozen low-cost boards from the fairly ancient Spartan 2 >> through the latest Spartan 6, and not a one of them doesn't have >> nonvolatile memory into which you can program the configuration >> bitstream. What low-cost boards have you looked at that don't have >> nonvolatile memory? >> > > Remember this is the classic computer list so, being about 10 years behind is > normal > around here. What can you recommend that has 5 volt I/O, nonvolatile memory and > mid-sized number of FPGA macro cells. Something one can use to emulate a PDP > computer with up to 512Kb of memory. > Ben. > Classic computers, yes; classic technology, maybe. Implementing a PDP-xx in a state of the art FPGA seems reasonable to discuss for me. Others may disagree, I guess, and want to limit the technology options to 74xx or Xilinx 3000 series. That is their option. As to the question, 5V tolerance combined with 512Kb (64KB) on chip memory and 'mid-sized number' of macrocells are more or less mutually exclusive options. Toss the 5V tolerance and use external translators and lots of options pop up ... Spartan3,6 series, Altera Cyclone 1,2,3,4 series are all readily available with more than enough internal memory and logic cells. If you really want 5V tolerance, then start looking at multi-CPLD designs (Xilinx 95xx series, Altera 7000 series) and external SRAM. Don From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 13 16:12:41 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:12:41 -0700 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC03D0B.6010407@mindspring.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC03D0B.6010407@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4EC040D9.1040509@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/13/2011 2:56 PM, Don North wrote: > On 11/13/2011 1:01 PM, ben wrote: >> On 11/13/2011 1:26 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> ben wrote about FPGA boards: >>> > My beef is that all the low cost boards, still needed to connected >>> the PC >>> > for use. You can't burn and go. >>> >>> I've got about a dozen low-cost boards from the fairly ancient Spartan 2 >>> through the latest Spartan 6, and not a one of them doesn't have >>> nonvolatile memory into which you can program the configuration >>> bitstream. What low-cost boards have you looked at that don't have >>> nonvolatile memory? >>> >> >> Remember this is the classic computer list so, being about 10 years >> behind is normal >> around here. What can you recommend that has 5 volt I/O, nonvolatile >> memory and >> mid-sized number of FPGA macro cells. Something one can use to emulate >> a PDP computer with up to 512Kb of memory. >> Ben. >> > > Classic computers, yes; classic technology, maybe. Implementing a PDP-xx > in a state of the art FPGA seems reasonable to discuss for me. Others > may disagree, I guess, and want to limit the technology options to 74xx > or Xilinx 3000 series. That is their option. > > As to the question, 5V tolerance combined with 512Kb (64KB) on chip > memory and 'mid-sized number' of macrocells are more or less mutually > exclusive options. Toss the 5V tolerance and use external translators > and lots of options pop up ... Spartan3,6 series, Altera Cyclone 1,2,3,4 > series are all readily available with more than enough internal memory > and logic cells. > I was speaking of on board rather than on chip memory, as well as 5 volt I/O on/off board. > If you really want 5V tolerance, then start looking at multi-CPLD > designs (Xilinx 95xx series, Altera 7000 series) and external SRAM. > > Don > > Any one care to design a generic classic computer FGA board? Ben. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Nov 13 16:48:07 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:48:07 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC040D9.1040509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC03D0B.6010407@mindspring.com> <4EC040D9.1040509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC04927.9060802@mindspring.com> On 11/13/2011 2:12 PM, ben wrote: > > > Any one care to design a generic classic computer FGA board? > Ben. > > > I mostly use this: http://www.altera.com/education/univ/materials/boards/de1/unv-de1-board.html because of the extra lights and switches and the builtin SDcard, serial, and video. Altho I do have one of these as well: http://www.altera.com/education/univ/materials/boards/de0-nano/unv-de0-nano-board.html that is really small and useful if all the peripherals can go on a home-made expansion card. If budget is no object, opt for: http://www.altera.com/education/univ/materials/boards/de2/unv-de2-board.html or the -70 or -115 larger versions. Adds ethernet, lots of lights and switches. All you need to add externally is your 5V translators (should you need them) and you are good to go. Prices are not too bad, much better if you can associate yourself with an educational institution. --- For the DE0-NANO, I fit a full PDP-8e clone with 32KW memory on the FPGA with lots of extra logic space left over. Don From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 13 16:53:27 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:53:27 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > Remember this is the classic computer list so, being about 10 years behind is normal > around here. What can you recommend that has 5 volt I/O, The last Xilinx FPGAs with 5V-tolerant I/O were the Spartan 2 family. They still make those, but they are tiny and slow by today's standards, and you have to use a really old version of the Xilinx software to develop for them. I don't think the situation with Altera is any better. Some of the latest FPGAs (e.g., Virtex 6) don't even have 3.3V-tolerant I/O. I'm pretty much resigned to using external level shifters or QuickSwitch-style parts when I need to interface to 5V systems. > nonvolatile memory and Most FPGAs don't have nonvolatile memory. Certainly the mainstream ones that have high logic density do not. They use a separate serial flash part to load the configuration at power-up. (The Spartan 3AN includes the serial flash part in the same package.) > mid-sized number of FPGA macro cells. Something one can use to emulate a PDP > computer with up to 512Kb of memory. I'm not sure whether you mean 512 Kbits or KBytes. There are a number of FPGAs with 512 Kbits of dedicated blockram, but if there are any with 512 KBytes, they must cost a fortune. You're generally much better off with an external SRAM. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 13 16:57:05 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:57:05 -0800 Subject: uPD7281 (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: <4EC0303C.8050902@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EBFB58D.14300.9618BE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC0303C.8050902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EBFDAC1.10947.1276C3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2011 at 13:01, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > (e.g. constrast "normal" software programming with > > programming a NEC 7281). > > I hadn't seen that before, so I just found a datasheet. Looks > intriguing. Is there a user manual for the part? I couldn't find any > data on the apparently related uPD9305. Yes, there is a manual--unfortunately I don't have it. I do have a manual for the somewhat related earlier DSP dataflow chip the uPD7720. NEC during the 1980s was very big in dataflow work--there's a ton of published work by NEC and by many others on the subject. I think another type of computing professional might be right at home with HDL--the old unit-record machine plugboard programmer. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 13 16:57:52 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:57:52 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> References: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC04B70.7060109@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > I should point out, too, that FPGAs are a comparatively young > field. The first ones were released in 1992 IIRC... Xilinx XC2064, introduced in 1985. From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Nov 13 17:10:27 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:10:27 -0500 Subject: uPD7281 (was Re: VHDL PDP11 Message-ID: > NEC during the 1980s was very big in dataflow work--there's a ton of > published work by NEC and by many others on the subject. It's easy to look backwards by a quarter century plus, on "Fifth generation computing" as a failure, but a lot of interesting and durable stuff came out of it (if not the "fifth generation computer"). The Japanese large-system peripherals of the late 80's and early 90's really cleaned the clocks of any competitors, not just the reliability of the electromechanical transports, but in large part because of signal processing done in NEC/Fujitsu/Hitachi/Toshiba signal processing chains. Tim. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 13 17:22:34 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:22:34 -0700 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/13/2011 3:53 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ben wrote: > > Remember this is the classic computer list so, being about 10 years > behind is normal > > around here. What can you recommend that has 5 volt I/O, > > The last Xilinx FPGAs with 5V-tolerant I/O were the Spartan 2 family. > They still make those, but they are tiny and slow by today's standards, > and you have to use a really old version of the Xilinx software to > develop for them. > > I don't think the situation with Altera is any better. > > Some of the latest FPGAs (e.g., Virtex 6) don't even have 3.3V-tolerant > I/O. > > I'm pretty much resigned to using external level shifters or > QuickSwitch-style parts when I need to interface to 5V systems. > > > nonvolatile memory and > > Most FPGAs don't have nonvolatile memory. Certainly the mainstream ones > that have high logic density do not. They use a separate serial flash > part to load the configuration at power-up. (The Spartan 3AN includes > the serial flash part in the same package.) > > > mid-sized number of FPGA macro cells. Something one can use to > emulate a PDP > > computer with up to 512Kb of memory. > > I'm not sure whether you mean 512 Kbits or KBytes. There are a number of > FPGAs with 512 Kbits of dedicated blockram, but if there are any with > 512 KBytes, they must cost a fortune. You're generally much better off > with an external SRAM. > Why do you all assume, it has to be on the FPGA. 512KB memory not on the FPGA. Quickly looking at Digikey Canada -- Altera Flex 6000 seems to fit my needs, but no development board. The DE0 board for now looks to be a valid base development board for now. Looks like I'll order it early next year. Ben. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 17:23:20 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:23:20 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC04B70.7060109@brouhaha.com> References: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> <4EC04B70.7060109@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3A158F9B-E7BE-4982-985C-BD08226A50ED@gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2011, at 5:57 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote: > > I should point out, too, that FPGAs are a comparatively young > > field. The first ones were released in 1992 IIRC... > > Xilinx XC2064, introduced in 1985. Huh. My sources must have lied to me. Oh well, it was an introductory book I read long ago and I never bothered to fact-check. Still young relative to CPUs and ROM. :-) - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 13 18:06:06 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:06:06 -0700 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/13/2011 4:22 PM, ben wrote: > > Why do you all assume, it has to be on the FPGA. 512KB memory > not on the FPGA. Quickly looking at Digikey Canada -- Altera Flex 6000 > seems > to fit my needs, but no development board. The DE0 board for now looks to > be a valid base development board for now. Looks like I'll order it > early next year. > Ben. Looks at the DE0 board in detail ... Not so good, who has the Intellectual property for the device configuration? Ben. From technobug at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 18:07:53 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:07:53 -0700 Subject: Futurama In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78E7A52E-4CCD-4A9F-B813-0F012FC9BDFD@comcast.net> It's Saturday afternoon and it is raining here in Arizona. So I'm sitting around inside sorting parts with the boob tube on. Futurama comes on (Season 2, Episode 4). The professor pulls out his new "F" ray and scans Bender (the robot) to find why he's sick and lo and behold he's running on a 6502! @ 4 minutes - > CRC From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Nov 13 18:36:55 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:36:55 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC062A7.9060802@mindspring.com> On 11/13/2011 4:06 PM, ben wrote: > On 11/13/2011 4:22 PM, ben wrote: > >> >> Why do you all assume, it has to be on the FPGA. 512KB memory >> not on the FPGA. Quickly looking at Digikey Canada -- Altera Flex 6000 >> seems >> to fit my needs, but no development board. The DE0 board for now looks to >> be a valid base development board for now. Looks like I'll order it >> early next year. >> Ben. > > Looks at the DE0 board in detail ... Not so good, who has the Intellectual > property > for the device configuration? > Ben. > I don't particularly like the DE0 (straight, not NANO version) because it has SDRAM and FLASH only, no external SRAM. The DE0 NANO however has a fairly large Cyclone IV device with lots of internal SRAM blocks (594Kb total). The DE1, altho it is based on an older Cyclone II device, has an external 512KB async SRAM on the board. I don't quite understand the substance of your question (who has the IP for the device configuration). Can you elaborate? You own the IP for what you design, but Altera provides the proprietary tools to do the design. Don From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 13 19:26:31 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:26:31 -0700 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC062A7.9060802@mindspring.com> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC062A7.9060802@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4EC06E47.1080508@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/13/2011 5:36 PM, Don North wrote: > On 11/13/2011 4:06 PM, ben wrote: >> On 11/13/2011 4:22 PM, ben wrote: >> >>> >>> Why do you all assume, it has to be on the FPGA. 512KB memory >>> not on the FPGA. Quickly looking at Digikey Canada -- Altera Flex 6000 >>> seems >>> to fit my needs, but no development board. The DE0 board for now >>> looks to >>> be a valid base development board for now. Looks like I'll order it >>> early next year. >>> Ben. >> >> Looks at the DE0 board in detail ... Not so good, who has the >> Intellectual property >> for the device configuration? >> Ben. >> > > I don't particularly like the DE0 (straight, not NANO version) because > it has SDRAM and FLASH only, no external SRAM. > > The DE0 NANO however has a fairly large Cyclone IV device with lots of > internal SRAM blocks (594Kb total). > > The DE1, altho it is based on an older Cyclone II device, has an > external 512KB async SRAM on the board. > > I don't quite understand the substance of your question (who has the IP > for the device configuration). Can you elaborate? > > You own the IP for what you design, but Altera provides the proprietary > tools to do the design. > The board has VGA,serial ,SDRAM that have to be programed for use. I would have to re-event the wheel to recreate the design the hardware is programed with. A nice 6809B computer is looking better and better. > Don > Ben. > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 19:53:04 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:53:04 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC06E47.1080508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC062A7.9060802@mindspring.com> <4EC06E47.1080508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > The board has VGA,serial ,SDRAM that have to be programed for use. > I would have to re-event the wheel to recreate the design the hardware > is programed with. A nice 6809B computer is looking better and better. You don't have to program anything you don't want to use. Besides, developing a simple serial port or VGA controller is a great way to introduce yourself to digital design, whether on an FPGA or with discrete logic. A DRAM controller is a good next step (hint: an SDRAM controller isn't much more complex than a DRAM controller). Reinventing the wheel is half the fun sometimes; in comparison to a CPU of any complexity the above examples are small potatoes. - Dave From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Nov 13 19:58:29 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:58:29 +1300 Subject: Futurama References: <78E7A52E-4CCD-4A9F-B813-0F012FC9BDFD@comcast.net> Message-ID: Yep, I noticed that first time I saw that episode. A cute nod to early microcomputing. Terry (Tezza) ----- Original Message ----- From: "CRC" To: Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 1:07 PM Subject: Futurama It's Saturday afternoon and it is raining here in Arizona. So I'm sitting around inside sorting parts with the boob tube on. Futurama comes on (Season 2, Episode 4). The professor pulls out his new "F" ray and scans Bender (the robot) to find why he's sick and lo and behold he's running on a 6502! @ 4 minutes - > CRC From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 13 20:13:36 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:13:36 -0700 Subject: Futurama In-Reply-To: References: <78E7A52E-4CCD-4A9F-B813-0F012FC9BDFD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4EC07950.8080305@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/13/2011 6:58 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Yep, I noticed that first time I saw that episode. A cute nod to early > microcomputing. > > Terry (Tezza) > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "CRC" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 1:07 PM > Subject: Futurama > > > It's Saturday afternoon and it is raining here in Arizona. So I'm > sitting around inside sorting parts with the boob tube on. Futurama > comes on (Season 2, Episode 4). The professor pulls out his new "F" ray > and scans Bender (the robot) to find why he's sick and lo and behold > he's running on a 6502! > > > @ 4 minutes > > - > CRC > > It is a good thing they have not found this page...Open 7400 Logic Competition http://dangerousprototypes.com/open-7400-logic-competition/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:17:04 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:17:04 -0600 Subject: Futurama In-Reply-To: References: <78E7A52E-4CCD-4A9F-B813-0F012FC9BDFD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4EC07A20.20902@gmail.com> Terry Stewart wrote: > Yep, I noticed that first time I saw that episode. A cute nod to early > microcomputing. If only they'd waited a few years for m68k... :-) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 12:16:09 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:16:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <201111111906.pABJ6UKa012608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1321121769.33252.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> maybe just your Beeb's world will end in 2011. Zappo zzzzzzzsssssttt Muahahahahahahahaha! --- On Fri, 11/11/11, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Or at least my BeBox does: From k.trilk at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 15:18:51 2011 From: k.trilk at comcast.net (keith trilk) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:18:51 -0800 Subject: Stuff for sale/free (Seattle area) In-Reply-To: <4E7FDEFA.40909@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Do you still have the Shibaden FP-107-1B camera? If so,do you have the cable for it? Keith From sytsezelf at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:12:56 2011 From: sytsezelf at gmail.com (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:12:56 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 Message-ID: <7D9CA8D6-7406-408E-97C3-40A1DE9D42EA@gmail.com> > Why do you all assume, it has to be on the FPGA. 512KB memory > not on the FPGA. Quickly looking at Digikey Canada -- Altera Flex 6000 > seems > to fit my needs, but no development board. The DE0 board for now looks to > be a valid base development board for now. Looks like I'll order it > early next year. > Ben. DE0 sure is a very nice board. But, it only has dram - which is a bit more difficult to interface than sram. DE1 gives you both. Then again, DE1 comes with an older generation FPGA, that is bigger than the one on as well. It calls for a comparison table, really - or, you might just order both? The boards are really not that expensive. And, both can run a PDP11 - and without needing a PC attached after the flash is programmed, by the way. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:24:38 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:24:38 -0600 Subject: Futurama In-Reply-To: <4EC07950.8080305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <78E7A52E-4CCD-4A9F-B813-0F012FC9BDFD@comcast.net> <4EC07950.8080305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC07BE6.2040101@gmail.com> ben wrote: > It is a good thing they have not found this page...Open 7400 Logic > Competition > > http://dangerousprototypes.com/open-7400-logic-competition/ Heck, that looks interesting... bookmarked for digesting later :-) From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Nov 13 20:40:01 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:40:01 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC062A7.9060802@mindspring.com> <4EC06E47.1080508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC07F81.8080602@verizon.net> On 11/13/2011 8:53 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> The board has VGA,serial ,SDRAM that have to be programed for use. >> I would have to re-event the wheel to recreate the design the >> hardware is programed with. A nice 6809B computer is looking better >> and better. > > You don't have to program anything you don't want to use. Besides, > developing a simple serial port or VGA controller is a great way to > introduce yourself to digital design, whether on an FPGA or with > discrete logic. A DRAM controller is a good next step (hint: an SDRAM > controller isn't much more complex than a DRAM controller). > Reinventing the wheel is half the fun sometimes; in comparison to a > CPU of any complexity the above examples are small potatoes. > > - Dave I can vouch for the Terasic DE0 and pretty much agree with most of the comments. I think the board is a nice board, has PS/2, VGA (with 12-bit color, nice), SD memory slot, and so on. It uses IDC-40 hard drive style connectors for the I/O, which there are 72 spare connections. I agree that writing VGA controllers and serial port UARTs are a great introduction. Memory controllers can be a real pain in the ass, and just getting a free (or included) one working on any board can be more than trivial. Xilinx's coregen memory generator sucks (for a different board). It generates huge amounts of code to drive DDR memory in an overly complex fashion. I found a FOSS memory controller for the altera terasic DE0 board, and it works like a charm. I've created a simple frame buffer application where I can upload via a USB<->LVTTL converter a properly formatted image into the SDRAM on the board and then it displays it on a monitor. youtube video for anyone so inclined...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGLbEd44MoA I'm in the process of getting code etc online for this. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 13 21:39:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:39:06 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC08D5A.8080206@neurotica.com> On 11/13/2011 04:50 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > But by his noodliness, the GUI Xilinx IDE is a hog. I'm running it on > an older Windows box in our Lab and it just crawls - but a) I _am_ in > the situation where I can only dump the configuration onto the chip > from a windows box (because I am cheap and only have the parallel > cable) and b) when I last tried to run the Linux version of the IDE on > my main computer (quite powerful and gobs of RAM) it was an unholy > crappy mess. This may have been version 11, so maybe it's gotten > better - but for now I'll avoid polluting my filesystem with it. ISE v13 is really, really nice under Linux now. I remember when it was an unholy crappy mess...fortunately they've wised up and fixed it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 13 21:47:28 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:47:28 -0800 Subject: Storage of LCD Monitors? Message-ID: Are there any temperature concerns when storing LCD Monitors? I'm concerned as this winter looks like it will probably be very cold, and it could get below freezing in our garage. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:53:06 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:53:06 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC07F81.8080602@verizon.net> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC062A7.9060802@mindspring.com> <4EC06E47.1080508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC07F81.8080602@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2011, at 21:40, Keith Monahan wrote: > I can vouch for the Terasic DE0 and pretty much agree with most of the > comments. I think the board is a nice board, has PS/2, VGA (with 12-bit > color, nice), SD memory slot, and so on. It uses IDC-40 hard drive > style connectors for the I/O, which there are 72 spare connections. > > I agree that writing VGA controllers and serial port UARTs are a great > introduction. I should point out too that the VGA DAC is nothing more than a resistor ladder for each channel with 4 bits (plus pins out for sync signals). You don't have to do any funny configuration, just output your colors. I made a simple demo that did a 640x480 colorized "munching squares" on my DE1 in less than 100 LEs (less than 1% of the device) and no RAM (the output was generated from the pixel coordinates and a "t" value incremented every frame. The whole controller really is little more than a handful of counters and comparators plus whatever you need to supply the pixel data at a constant rate. > Memory controllers can be a real pain in the ass, and just getting a > free (or included) one working on any board can be more than trivial. > Xilinx's coregen memory generator sucks (for a different board). It > generates huge amounts of code to drive DDR memory in an overly complex > fashion. Well, DDR is a pain in the ass. It has a lot of timing constraints (including a minimum clock speed on non-LPDDR parts because there's a DLL for aligning the data that has a minimum speed) that are very hard to match. Regular SDRAM (which is what's on the DE1, at least) doesn't have any requirements like that as long as you refresh often enough. Even the "commands" to the controller on the chip follow the same pattern as their non-synchronous counterparts. I believe Terasic even includes some free-as-in-beer core to make it behave much like SRAM on their site and in the materials that come with the DE1. - Dave From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 13 21:59:40 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:59:40 -0500 Subject: Storage of LCD Monitors? References: Message-ID: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Would_an_LCD_TV_freeze_if_left_in_an_unheated_space "LCDs will only work properly in a certain temperature range, and can usually be stored in a larger range with colder and warmer temperatures. Most LCDs can be stored down to -40F or up to 115F before damage occurs, but will only operate properly in a more comfortable 50F to 90F range. This varies by screen, so you'll want to check the specifications in your TV's manual. If your LCD is left out in the cold, make sure to allow it to rise to room temperature before attempting to power it on, and it should be just fine." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:47 PM Subject: Storage of LCD Monitors? > Are there any temperature concerns when storing LCD Monitors? I'm > concerned as this winter looks like it will probably be very cold, and it > could get below freezing in our garage. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 13 22:06:43 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:06:43 -0800 Subject: Storage of LCD Monitors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks! Based on this, I think I'll bring the good one in (it's basically brand new, and a current model), but leave the other two or three out there. Come to think of it, I've never worried about the laptops I have out there... :-) Somehow we went from having a single LCD monitor to having several in about a months time. The main reason I even thought about it is it's *COLD* out there, and I'm trying to get the darkroom area back to where I can use it. Two of the monitors are sitting next to the primary enlarger. Zane At 10:59 PM -0500 11/13/11, TeoZ wrote: >http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Would_an_LCD_TV_freeze_if_left_in_an_unheated_space > >"LCDs will only work properly in a certain temperature range, and >can usually be stored in a larger range with colder and warmer >temperatures. Most LCDs can be stored down to -40F or up to 115F >before damage occurs, but will only operate properly in a more >comfortable 50F to 90F range. This varies by screen, so you'll want >to check the specifications in your TV's manual. If your LCD is left >out in the cold, make sure to allow it to rise to room temperature >before attempting to power it on, and it should be just fine." > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" >To: >Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:47 PM >Subject: Storage of LCD Monitors? > >>Are there any temperature concerns when storing LCD Monitors? I'm >>concerned as this winter looks like it will probably be very cold, >>and it could get below freezing in our garage. >> >>Zane >> >> >> >>-- >>| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >>| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >>| | Photographer | >>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >>| My flickr Photostream | >>| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Nov 14 01:41:57 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:41:57 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC04B70.7060109@brouhaha.com> References: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> <4EC04B70.7060109@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20111114084157.566xd4decc40sokw@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Eric Smith : > David Riley wrote: >> I should point out, too, that FPGAs are a comparatively young >> field. The first ones were released in 1992 IIRC... > > Xilinx XC2064, introduced in 1985. IIRC, there were called FPGA much later. Introduction was as "LCA" From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Mon Nov 14 01:52:53 2011 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:52:53 +0100 Subject: PDP11 time table Message-ID: <1885434C395D4D0B98BAE450712BD753@mars> Hi folks, get some question here, so is somebody out there who can give a good answer (because he was part of the team at this time??) Citate starts here: Hi, found this website via your comment on Sytse's site. One remark on the PDP-11 history table: wasn't the 11/40 an earlier model than the 11/45? Regards, Hans Submitted By: Hans Vlems Thanks for helping With best regards Gerhard From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 14 02:16:09 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:16:09 -0800 Subject: FPGA history (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: <20111114084157.566xd4decc40sokw@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> <4EC04B70.7060109@brouhaha.com> <20111114084157.566xd4decc40sokw@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <4EC0CE49.8060504@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Xilinx XC2064, introduced in 1985. emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > IIRC, there were called FPGA much later. Introduction was as "LCA" A rose by any other name would be a synonym. The term "Field Programmable Gate Array" and the abbreviation FPGA were in use at least as early as March 1, 1982 (filing date of US patent 4,461,000), referring to parts significantly less sophisticated than the Xilinx XC2064, which was the first FPGA in the modern sense of the term. Xilinx used the term "Logic Cell Array" (LCA) in its early literature primarily to distinguish its product from the less sophisticated parts that had been known as FPGAs. For example, from 1986: "Xilinx and Hamilton Avnet Present Logic Cell Array(tm): The User Programmable Gate Arrays" -- not specifically FPGA, but clearly shows that Xilinx was distinguishing LCA as a proprietary term for their version of a more general concept. At some point it must have become obvious to them that the "LCA" term was less useful in marketing than a more general term. Eric From ttmrichter at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 02:19:22 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:19:22 +0800 Subject: PDP11 time table In-Reply-To: <1885434C395D4D0B98BAE450712BD753@mars> References: <1885434C395D4D0B98BAE450712BD753@mars> Message-ID: On 14 November 2011 15:52, Gerhard Kreuzer wrote: > Hi folks, > > get some question here, so is somebody out there who can give a good answer > (because he was part of the team at this time??) > > Citate starts here: > Hi, found this website via your comment on Sytse's site. > > One remark on the PDP-11 history table: wasn't the 11/40 an earlier model > than the 11/45? > > Regards, > > Hans Submitted By: Hans Vlems > > Thanks for helping > > With best regards > > Gerhard > I wasn't part of the team that made it, but I've been a fan of PDP-11s (the *real* ones, not the toy ones) for quite a while. To my knowledge the /45 was released in 1971 and the /40 was released in 1972. I can't find the DEC documentation I used to have that would have supported this, but I imagine it's on BitSavers (since that's where I got about 80% of my documentation from). Gordon Bell seems to agree, however, after a bit of digging: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/digital/timeline/16-bit.htm . -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 14 02:20:19 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 09:20:19 +0100 Subject: PDP11 time table In-Reply-To: <1885434C395D4D0B98BAE450712BD753@mars> References: <1885434C395D4D0B98BAE450712BD753@mars> Message-ID: <20111114082018.GB31274@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 08:52:53AM +0100, Gerhard Kreuzer wrote: > Hi folks, > > get some question here, so is somebody out there who can give a good answer > (because he was part of the team at this time??) > > Citate starts here: > Hi, found this website via your comment on Sytse's site. > > One remark on the PDP-11 history table: wasn't the 11/40 an earlier model > than the 11/45? Hi, I wasn't there due to not being born yet. But here is one source claiming the 11/45 was released 1972 and the 11/40 in 1973: http://williambader.com/museum/vax/lineage.html Regards, Pontus From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 06:56:18 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:56:18 +0000 Subject: A Lisp Machine on an FPGA Message-ID: This is a new one on me. I don't know enough to judge, but it seems to be more of a /de novo/ implementation than anything directly compatible with a classic Symbolics or LSI Lisp Machine. http://www.aviduratas.de/lisp/lispmfpga/index.html -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Nov 14 07:53:32 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:53:32 -0600 Subject: Needed: Diskette for "Dissecting DOS: A Code-Level Look at the DOS Operating System" Message-ID: <4EC11D5C.6080304@brutman.com> I purchased this new from Amazon with the expectation that there would be a diskette in it. Perhaps not readable, but still present. To my amazement there is no diskette at all and no provision for even holding one in the book despite the prominent "DISK Included" on the front cover. Rather than return it and try for a used one, does anybody have the diskette? I'd like a raw image of it, but even just a Zip of the files would be fine. On a slightly related note, I have enough older books like this where I'm thinking it's time to start an online archive. The books are still good without the disks, but the disks often have code that the book didn't bother to print. Thanks, Mike From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Nov 14 09:37:08 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:37:08 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC062A7.9060802@mindspring.com> <4EC06E47.1080508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC07F81.8080602@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EC135A4.9080001@verizon.net> On 11/13/2011 10:53 PM, David Riley wrote: > I should point out too that the VGA DAC is nothing more than a > resistor ladder for each channel with 4 bits (plus pins out for sync > signals). Right. An example for modifying a Xilinx board for added colors is here. http://www.fpgaarcade.com/displaytest.htm For me, if it's already done, pins already reserved for the task, resistors already on the demo board, it's one thing less to worry about. On the same site, I'm really excited about the FPGA replay board that is selling soon. http://www.fpgaarcade.com/common/replay_overview.jpg It is in essence a big FPGA with memory, and a bunch of other hardware on the board for running existing cores of retro-machines. > Well, DDR is a pain in the ass. It has a lot of timing constraints > (including a minimum clock speed on non-LPDDR parts because there's a > DLL for aligning the data that has a minimum speed) that are very > hard to match. And there are board/trace routing issues that you must also take into account. > Regular SDRAM (which is what's on the DE1, at least) > doesn't have any requirements like that as long as you refresh often > enough. Even the "commands" to the controller on the chip follow the > same pattern as their non-synchronous counterparts. I believe Terasic > even includes some free-as-in-beer core to make it behave much like > SRAM on their site and in the materials that come with the DE1. Can you please point me to this? I have a DE0 as mentioned, and I actually use a modified FOSS core designed for the DE2, which works fine on the DE0. I'd rather use an official or better-vetted solution. I downloaded the DE1 CDROM from Terasic and I don't see it. Their "using sdram with verilog" sounds really promising, until you figure out that they actually create a NIOS II core with the memory controller, and then have you access the memory from verilog through that core. I even emailed support about this, and they said, "sorry, yes, only through NIOS." What is frustrating about Terasic Support is that when I found a problem with VGA support where a certain pin does "double duty" as both a VGA-pin and a programming pin, the default Altera software fatals out with default configuration. You need to change something to use the VGA connector. SO I email them, point out the issue, point out the resolution, and told him to add it as an FAQ. I probably took me an hour or so to find a working resolution on my own. They've failed to ever add it to their FAQ...... > - Dave Keith From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Nov 14 10:24:20 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:24:20 +0000 Subject: Needed: Diskette for "Dissecting DOS: A Code-Level Look at the DOS Operating System" Message-ID: <150507181-1321287861-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-342290360-@b5.c7.bise6.blackberry> Mike -- I believe I have this at home somewhere. Contact me off-list and I'll send it to you. ------Original Message------ From: Michael B. Brutman Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: CCTalk ReplyTo: CCTalk Subject: Needed: Diskette for "Dissecting DOS: A Code-Level Look at the DOS Operating System" Sent: Nov 14, 2011 8:53 AM I purchased this new from Amazon with the expectation that there would be a diskette in it. Perhaps not readable, but still present. To my amazement there is no diskette at all and no provision for even holding one in the book despite the prominent "DISK Included" on the front cover. Rather than return it and try for a used one, does anybody have the diskette? I'd like a raw image of it, but even just a Zip of the files would be fine. On a slightly related note, I have enough older books like this where I'm thinking it's time to start an online archive. The books are still good without the disks, but the disks often have code that the book didn't bother to print. Thanks, Mike Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Nov 14 13:21:31 2011 From: brad at heeltoe.com (brad at heeltoe.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:21:31 -0700 Subject: A Lisp Machine on an FPGA Message-ID: <20111114122131.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.564617a793.wbe@email16.secureserver.net> >From: Liam Proven >... >This is a new one on me. I don't know enough to judge, but it seems to >be more of a /de novo/ implementation than anything directly >compatible with a classic Symbolics or LSI Lisp Machine. > >http://www.aviduratas.de/lisp/lispmfpga/index.html Yes, it's a fun project but not related to any prior lispm hardware. On a similar note, I'm still plugging away on my MIT CADR fpga. It boots fine in simulation, but crashes on real FPGA hardware. It does show the debugger on a VGA screen with keyboard input, which is mildly interesting. You can even get emacs to run briefly. I don't know of any Symbolics compatible lispm-fpga work. I keep looking for a CAD files for the Ivory but no luck yet. -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 14 15:05:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:05:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 13, 11 04:30:29 pm Message-ID: > > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to grab > > a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. > > >From that standpoint, I'd say you'd have almost as much fun with > simulation as with the real hardware. The real hardware is a much Eh? I _loathe_ simulation. I find nothing enjoyable about 'designing' on a computer at all. For almost everything I've ever designed or reparied I just use my brain. I have nop problems understnading hopw such things work. WHen I need a bit of assistance, I use a pocket calcualtor (seriously [1]). I've never needed anythhing more. [1] For example, I simluated the HP9830 memory control state machine using amy HP49G. I could haev done it by hand, I fully understnad what is going on, but working out the J's and K's 4 flip-flops by hand, and repeating it a dozen times is likely to involve at least one error, so I got my clacualtor to do it for me. The bit I enjoy is actually buidign the hardware. 'Getting my hands dirty' if you like. SOldering in the chips, wiring them up, etc. And as I said before, I'll do what I enjoy when it's for my hobby. > bigger headache than simulation, because unlike simulation and a board > full of TTL chips, you can't go in and probe specific nodes without > rebuilding the design. That is one thing I dislike about FPGAs, certainly. On the other hand, I've had problems iwth (expensive commeraical) simualtrs that either fail to show glitches when they do exist, show glitches where the can't possibly exist, or generally have problems. > > That said, I do FPGAs for a living and I enjoy working on them from a > hobbyist perspective, but largely because I don't have a huge library of > TTL parts at my disposal (and it's expensive to acquire them all at It's amazing what you can still easily get. Alas (foer me) many of the more obscrue and intersting ones are no logner manufactured, but ther are plenty about. And it's aamzing what you can do with just gates and D-types, both of whcih are easy to get new. > once, and decent wire-wrap boards are hard to come by at least in the US, > etc). > > The availability of nice FPGA eval boards (like the Terasic ones, > which I absolutely love) make it attractive to me. I'm still working on > my 68000 SBC, but it's mostly in concept only until I can find a decent > source of wire wrap boards (the kind with traces, not just bare > phenolic) around here. > I guess you couldalways design the sort of board you need and eitehr etch it or get a PCB house to make it for you. And then wire-wrap on top of that. Quite honestly, ofr me, the less pre-built the better. Then I can use 'real' solder.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 14 15:09:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:09:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 13, 11 04:30:29 pm Message-ID: > >From that standpoint, I'd say you'd have almost as much fun with > simulation as with the real hardware. The real hardware is a much Incidentlaly, if I was happy with simulation, then presumably I'd be happy to run emulators of classic computer rather than the real hardwre. As it is, I have absolutely no interest _myself_ in emulators... But you might be right. I'd probably get as much enjoyment from the simlator as from the real FGPA. That is 'none at all'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 14 14:54:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:54:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <1321121769.33252.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 12, 11 10:16:09 am Message-ID: > > maybe just your Beeb's world will end in 2011. Zappo zzzzzzzsssssttt That confused me at first becasue 'Beeb' has a totally differnt (and possibly classic-computer-related) meaning over here... -tony From jecel at merlintec.com Mon Nov 14 17:22:41 2011 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 20:22:41 -0300 Subject: FPGA history (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: <4EC0CE49.8060504@brouhaha.com> References: <2C551E02-6B26-46F8-B8AB-1D8FEFD32FA4@gmail.com> <4EC04B70.7060109@brouhaha.com> <20111114084157.566xd4decc40sokw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4EC0CE49.8060504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201111142224.pAEMOpcw012932@billy.ezwind.net> I can confirm that the term "FPGA" was used early on and that Xilinx's "LCA" never caught on. Back in 1986 I had a nice chat with someone at the company (I think it was the president, but am not sure) who was very excited that there were people way down in Brazil trying to use their product. It was a lot of fun to use XACT on a CGA 8086 PC to set each logic block individually and route each wire through all the intermediate switches. I couldn't get the design to be fast enough, unfortunately, and had to use TTLs and PALs instead. The XC6200 was a favorite among the academic people (I was just offered two boards with this chip last week) but was never used in any product and was dropped. It had come from outside Xilinx and had never really meshed well with the rest of that company's products: http://www.algotronix.com/people/tom/album.html The reconfigurability came back in a more limited form in the Virtex architecture (and so in Spartan II and later as well) and though the detailed information about the bit files were never released, there was a library called JBits which was made available to selected groups which did give you full control over the configuration bits. This was not updated to handle newer chip families as these became available and eventually JBits vanished. Atmel had two families of FPGAs, the AT40K and the AT6000. They are both tiny and limited by today's standards, but teh AT6000 (if I remember correctly) did have its configuration bits fully documented and for a while I considered using it in my projects for this reason. The VPR academic FPGA tools could be used with JBits to do the whole job on old Virtex chips. http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/vpr/ There was a project to figure out the configuration bits for Virtex chips which was part of a larger project to build a PDP-10 with FPGAs. I don't think either was finished: http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/VirtexTools/ Here is a series of papers about more recent efforts to generate configuration bits without using the vendor tools: Roman Lysecky, Frank Vahid, and Sheldon X.-D. Tan. 2004. Dynamic FPGA routing for just-in-time FPGA compilation. In Proceedings of the 41st annual Design Automation Conference (DAC '04). ACM, New York, NY, USA, 954-959. http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=996819&preflayout=flat Etienne Bergeron, Marc Feeley, and Jean Pierre David. Toward on-chip JIT synthesis on Xilinx VirtexII-Pro FPGAs. In International IEEE Northeast Workshop on Circuits and Systems (NEWCAS'07), pages 642-645, August 2007 http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/papers/BergeronFeeleyDavidNEWCAS07.p df Etienne Bergeron, Marc Feeley, and Jean-Pierre David. Hardware JIT Compilation for Off-the-Shelf Dynamically Reconfigurable FPGAs. In International Conference on Compiler Construction (CC'08), volume 4959 of Lecture Notes in Computer Science, pages 178-192, March 2008 http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/papers/BergeronFeeleyDavidCC08.pdf Etienne Bergeron, Louis-David Perron, Marc Feeley, and Jean Pierre David. Logarithmic-Time FPGA bitstream analysis: A step towards JIT hardware compilation. ACM Transactions on Reconfigurable Technology and Systems, Vol 4, No 2, Article 12 (May 2011), 27 pages http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1968502.1968503&preflayout=flat -- Jecel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 17:59:31 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:59:31 -0600 Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC1AB63.30909@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> maybe just your Beeb's world will end in 2011. Zappo zzzzzzzsssssttt > > That confused me at first becasue 'Beeb' has a totally differnt (and > possibly classic-computer-related) meaning over here... Yes, me too - was 'beeb' a common US-ism for BeBox? (Anyone have any theories as to why the end of 2010 is a limit for the UI?) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 14 18:09:02 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:09:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <4EC1AB63.30909@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Nov 14, 11 05:59:31 pm" Message-ID: <201111150009.pAF092vn010378@floodgap.com> > > > maybe just your Beeb's world will end in 2011. Zappo zzzzzzzsssssttt > > > > That confused me at first becasue 'Beeb' has a totally differnt (and > > possibly classic-computer-related) meaning over here... > > Yes, me too - was 'beeb' a common US-ism for BeBox? I'd never heard it. > (Anyone have any theories as to why the end of 2010 is a limit for the UI?) Those nutty Be folks. Next thing you know, they'll be putting haiku error messages in the web browser. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but the doorjambs need dusting." ------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 22:02:53 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:02:53 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC135A4.9080001@verizon.net> References: <4EBF2A72.4090301@jwsss.com> <255677B7-4E91-43F9-9396-4138DCB9B981@gmail.com> <201111130517.AAA09404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <2242AB1C-FC7A-4C02-A94F-73DB2888686D@gmail.com> <4EC00FB5.8080701@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC02807.3030000@brouhaha.com> <4EC03039.8020401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC04A67.1050804@brouhaha.com> <4EC0513A.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC05B6E.90105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC062A7.9060802@mindspring.com> <4EC06E47.1080508@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC07F81.8080602@verizon.net> <4EC135A4.9080001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6F1F049D-D320-4DE1-9792-24F4F8B88B44@gmail.com> On Nov 14, 2011, at 10:37 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> Well, DDR is a pain in the ass. It has a lot of timing constraints >> (including a minimum clock speed on non-LPDDR parts because there's a >> DLL for aligning the data that has a minimum speed) that are very >> hard to match. > > And there are board/trace routing issues that you must also take into account. Yeah. There's a lot to deal with for doing DDR (more so the farther you go, though it's also easier to make a solution that works first go now, too). We've always had first-spin success, but we also have (or use, depending on the project) very good layout people. Sometimes the hardware makes it harder; the Virtex-6 has absolutely awful DDR3 waveforms, even on their reference platforms. It won't even pass the compliance tests on Agilent scopes, not by a long shot. >> Regular SDRAM (which is what's on the DE1, at least) >> doesn't have any requirements like that as long as you refresh often >> enough. Even the "commands" to the controller on the chip follow the >> same pattern as their non-synchronous counterparts. I believe Terasic >> even includes some free-as-in-beer core to make it behave much like >> SRAM on their site and in the materials that come with the DE1. > > Can you please point me to this? I have a DE0 as mentioned, and I actually use a modified FOSS core designed for the DE2, which works fine on the DE0. I'd rather use an official or better-vetted solution. > > I downloaded the DE1 CDROM from Terasic and I don't see it. Their "using sdram with verilog" sounds really promising, until you figure out that they actually create a NIOS II core with the memory controller, and then have you access the memory from verilog through that core. > > I even emailed support about this, and they said, "sorry, yes, only through NIOS." Hm, I'll see if I can find it. I'm not sure I ever used it outside of SOPC Builder. > What is frustrating about Terasic Support is that when I found a problem with VGA support where a certain pin does "double duty" as both a VGA-pin and a programming pin, the default Altera software fatals out with default configuration. You need to change something to use the VGA connector. SO I email them, point out the issue, point out the resolution, and told him to add it as an FAQ. I probably took me an hour or so to find a working resolution on my own. They've failed to ever add it to their FAQ...... Right, thought that's a long-standing default with Quartus project files along with unused outputs defaulting to "output GND", which is a horrifying default from a "bringing up parts of a board" section; you're almost guaranteed to drive GND into someone else's logic high. Perhaps they don't change it because they're afraid of violating assumptions, though I think they might have at least changed the latter one in recent versions. Perhaps Terasic assumes you are familiar with the tools (which is a pretty dumb assumption considering the target market). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 22:12:12 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:12:12 -0500 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C620DF9-9F63-4C76-AC90-4D145A85C7B3@gmail.com> On Nov 14, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Eh? I _loathe_ simulation. I find nothing enjoyable about 'designing' on > a computer at all. > > For almost everything I've ever designed or reparied I just use my brain. > I have nop problems understnading hopw such things work. WHen I need a > bit of assistance, I use a pocket calcualtor (seriously [1]). I've never > needed anythhing more. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. For the stuff I can solder together (like my 68K board), I like doing it on paper. Simulating it in HDL just feels like cheating. :-) However, for most large-scale FPGA stuff, after I've "simulated" the smaller blocks on paper I tend to take it to HDL and thus HDL simulation as a next step to make sure I didn't make any dumb mistakes (and I often do). > The bit I enjoy is actually buidign the hardware. 'Getting my hands > dirty' if you like. SOldering in the chips, wiring them up, etc. And as I > said before, I'll do what I enjoy when it's for my hobby. I enjoy that as well, but I'm primarily limited by budget (and space) these days. Once we've moved into a larger place, it might be a different matter. >> bigger headache than simulation, because unlike simulation and a board >> full of TTL chips, you can't go in and probe specific nodes without >> rebuilding the design. > > That is one thing I dislike about FPGAs, certainly. On the other hand, > I've had problems iwth (expensive commeraical) simualtrs that either fail > to show glitches when they do exist, show glitches where the can't > possibly exist, or generally have problems. Sure, I've had that too. A lot of the problem is that the FPGA synthesizers try to infer what you mean in the HDL as registers and lookup tables, and sometimes your code varies from their inference template just enough that you get the wrong hardware. It's a pain, about as much as a compiler generating incorrect machine code (see the m88k gcc saga). And of course the simulators live in a world full of binary signals and finite time granularity where two things can actually happen at the exact same instant, which of course FPGAs do not. There's more of an art to relating simulation results to the real world than a lot of people suspect. >> That said, I do FPGAs for a living and I enjoy working on them from a >> hobbyist perspective, but largely because I don't have a huge library of >> TTL parts at my disposal (and it's expensive to acquire them all at > > It's amazing what you can still easily get. Alas (foer me) many of the > more obscrue and intersting ones are no logner manufactured, but ther are > plenty about. And it's aamzing what you can do with just gates and > D-types, both of whcih are easy to get new. Note that availability is not my problem; it's cost. I could scrounge them from dead boards, I guess, but a) I hate cannibalizing what could be working hardware unless it was total garbage in the first place and b) I loathe desoldering. It's the worst, even with the nicest solder suckers and braid and flux I can find. >> The availability of nice FPGA eval boards (like the Terasic ones, >> which I absolutely love) make it attractive to me. I'm still working on >> my 68000 SBC, but it's mostly in concept only until I can find a decent >> source of wire wrap boards (the kind with traces, not just bare >> phenolic) around here. >> > > I guess you couldalways design the sort of board you need and eitehr etch > it or get a PCB house to make it for you. And then wire-wrap on top of > that. True. And in quantity, that wouldn't be too bad, pricewise. I might see about cooking up a few dozen and offering them up (to get volume discounts), if anyone has suggestions for models. - Dave From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Nov 15 00:07:39 2011 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:07:39 -0800 Subject: FPGA history (was Re: VHDL PDP11) Message-ID: <000b01cca35c$e14165e0$a3c431a0$@comcast.net> Signetics started using the term Field Programmable Gate Array in 1977 or 1978 to describe their 82S102 (open collector) and 82S103 (tri-state) bipolar devices. They had 16 inputs and 9 outputs with a programmable AND array. The name was mostly a marketing ploy because they were small devices similar to MMI's PALs. Gate Arrays were the popular large scale mask programmable logic device at the time. Signetics introduced the 82S100/82S101, the Field Programmable Logic Array, in 1975. The term FPGA became popular with larger devices such as the Xilinx LCA (1985) and the Actel ACT devices (1988). Both of these had many small logic elements as opposed to the wide AND gates of the early Altera devices. You also designed these devices by creating a schematic using a standard macro cell library, just like a real Gate Array. Actel even mimicked the LSI Logic Gate Array library. In a few years, hardware description languages started making inroads into FPGA designs. I worked at Data I/O from 1981 to 1997 developing commercial software for designing with programmable logic. The PLD language, ABEL, was one of projects I worked on. Michael Holley From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Nov 15 09:59:51 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:59:51 +0000 Subject: Developer's Edge book free pdf on Oracle Blogs Message-ID: <201111151559.pAFFxviF015493@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> A book containing blog entries and articles from Darryl Gove, one of Sun's compiler guys, has been made available as a free download on Oracle. http://blogs.oracle.com/d/tags/sparc Look for "The Developer's Edge" on the right margin and click to download the book as a PDF. Lots of good stuff in there including much SPARC info I haven't seen elsewhere. Get it while quantities last! -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Wants: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris SPARC | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | | Stony Brook Modula-2 for Solaris SPARC | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 Intel and Solaris 10 SPARC | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 11:55:11 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:55:11 -0500 Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <201111150009.pAF092vn010378@floodgap.com> References: <4EC1AB63.30909@gmail.com> <201111150009.pAF092vn010378@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > > maybe just your Beeb's world will end in 2011. Zappo zzzzzzzsssssttt >> > >> > That confused me at first becasue 'Beeb' has a totally differnt (and >> > possibly classic-computer-related) meaning over here... >> >> Yes, me too - was 'beeb' a common US-ism for BeBox? > > I'd never heard it. Nor have I. To me, even in the States, "beeb" is a BBC Micro (we supported it along with the Apple II and C-64 at the company I wrote games for in 1984 - the only Beeb I ever saw in person was our development box. Never saw one in someone's home.) -ethan From trestivo at cfl.rr.com Tue Nov 15 09:05:41 2011 From: trestivo at cfl.rr.com (THOM RESTIVO) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:05:41 -0500 Subject: can someone identify these boards? Message-ID: I know the M8417 AA is 16k, and the BB is 32k, but I have a BE and a BF. Anyone have a list with these numbers on it? Thom Thomas Restivo Technical Assurance Resources, Inc. PH/Fax: (321)768-0006 Cell: (321)537-2384 From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Nov 15 12:27:39 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:27:39 -0500 Subject: can someone identify these boards? Message-ID: > I know the M8417 AA is 16k, and the BB is 32k, but I have a BE and a BF. > Anyone have a list with these numbers on it? With very few exceptions on DEC solid state memory boards over a long era, first letter is the size, second letter is the chip manufacturer. Often for the first letter, each letter up means a doubling in capacity but not always true (because there were 3/4 populated boards for example.) The mapping of last letter to manufacturer depends on rest of part number. M8417-BB is 32Kx12 Mostek 4027 chips M8417-BE is 32Kx12 Fujitsu 8227 chips M8417-BF is 32Kx12 Intel 2104A chips The "Edited Option Module List" is your friend. Hardly pocket sized though :-) From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:04:04 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:04:04 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip Message-ID: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> What is the oldest microprocessor still being manufactured? Z80? Peace... Sridhar From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:16:37 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:16:37 +0000 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > What is the oldest microprocessor still being manufactured? ?Z80? > > Peace... ?Sridhar > Could even be TMS1000, for some washing machine etc Dave Caroline From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:16:39 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:16:39 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > What is the oldest microprocessor still being manufactured? ?Z80? I've found two release dates for the Z-80, May or July, 1976. I wasn't as quickly able to find the specific release date for the 6502, but it was sometime in 1976, IIRC. What else from that era is still being manufactured? -ethan From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Nov 15 14:33:33 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:33:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >> What is the oldest microprocessor still being manufactured? ?Z80? > > I've found two release dates for the Z-80, May or July, 1976. I > wasn't as quickly able to find the specific release date for the 6502, > but it was sometime in 1976, IIRC. > > What else from that era is still being manufactured? ISTM the 1802 is still being made by Intersil. Alexey From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 15 14:44:04 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:44:04 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexey Toptygin > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Oldest CPU Chip > > On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Sridhar Ayengar > wrote: > >> > >> What is the oldest microprocessor still being manufactured? ?Z80? > > > > I've found two release dates for the Z-80, May or July, 1976. I > > wasn't as quickly able to find the specific release date for the 6502, > > but it was sometime in 1976, IIRC. > > > > What else from that era is still being manufactured? > > ISTM the 1802 is still being made by Intersil. > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 15 13:45:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:45:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FPGA history (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: <201111142224.pAEMOpcw012932@billy.ezwind.net> from "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." at Nov 14, 11 08:22:41 pm Message-ID: > Atmel had two families of FPGAs, the AT40K and the AT6000. They are both > tiny and limited by today's standards, but teh AT6000 (if I remember > correctly) did have its configuration bits fully documented and for a > while I considered using it in my projects for this reason. I assume said chips are very hard to find now. That's the other problem I find withFPGAs and their ilk -- they're discontinued and replaced very freqeuntly. And then you have to updata your tools for the new device and hope it really does behave identically. At least with plain old TTL I can still get a 14 pin chip that behaves in much the same way as the original 7400, albeit faster and with less power consumption > There was a project to figure out the configuration bits for Virtex > chips which was part of a larger project to build a PDP-10 with FPGAs. I > don't think either was finished: > > http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/VirtexTools/ > > Here is a series of papers about more recent efforts to generate > configuration bits without using the vendor tools: > > Roman Lysecky, Frank Vahid, and Sheldon X.-D. Tan. 2004. Dynamic FPGA > routing for just-in-time FPGA compilation. In Proceedings of the 41st > annual Design Automation Conference (DAC '04). ACM, New York, NY, USA, > 954-959. > > http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=996819&preflayout=flat > > Etienne Bergeron, Marc Feeley, and Jean Pierre David. Toward on-chip JIT > synthesis on Xilinx VirtexII-Pro FPGAs. In International IEEE Northeast > Workshop on Circuits and Systems (NEWCAS'07), pages 642-645, August 2007 > > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/papers/BergeronFeeleyDavidNEWCAS07.p > df > > Etienne Bergeron, Marc Feeley, and Jean-Pierre David. Hardware JIT > Compilation for Off-the-Shelf Dynamically Reconfigurable FPGAs. In > International Conference on Compiler Construction (CC'08), volume 4959 > of Lecture Notes in Computer Science, pages 178-192, March 2008 > > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/papers/BergeronFeeleyDavidCC08.pdf > > Etienne Bergeron, Louis-David Perron, Marc Feeley, and Jean Pierre > David. Logarithmic-Time FPGA bitstream analysis: A step towards JIT > hardware compilation. ACM Transactions on Reconfigurable Technology and > Systems, Vol 4, No 2, Article 12 (May 2011), 27 pages > > http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1968502.1968503&preflayout=flat Am I theonly person to feel it's ridiculous to have reserach papers re-discovering information that is already known ot some people (those who work for the FPGA manufactuer). I feel that research should solve genuine problems that nobody knows the answer too, not artificial ones to whci hthe anser is known but 'we won't tell you'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 15 14:04:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:04:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <3C620DF9-9F63-4C76-AC90-4D145A85C7B3@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 14, 11 11:12:12 pm Message-ID: > Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. For the stuff I can Precisely. As I said some messages ago, this is a hobby -- something you do because you enjoy it. IMHO the only requirewmnt for a hobby is that it doesn't have an adverse effect on others, it doesn't harm animals,, and things like that. Nobody else has to enjoy it. I cant;' see how wanting to design with papepr and pen and build by soldering up piles of components compeltely satisfies that. Or another example. There are people, I believe, who enjoy kicking and chansing a ball around an area of grass. Now, you'd not get me to do soemthing like that, not even at gunpoint, but I am not going to attempt to stop those that do enjoy it. That's their business, not mine. > solder together (like my 68K board), I like doing it on paper. > Simulating it in HDL just feels like cheating. :-) However, for most Quite apart from the fact that i's probably quicker to design it on paper... > I enjoy that as well, but I'm primarily limited by budget (and space) It needn't be that large. You cna fit at lest 30 DIL pacakges onto a eurocard (allowing space for handwiring). A cardcage full of such boards is easily enough for a CPU... Yes, that size will slow you down, but there are plenty of intersting things you can build if you want to > these days. Once we've moved into a larger place, it might be a > different matter. > > >> bigger headache than simulation, because unlike simulation and a board > >> full of TTL chips, you can't go in and probe specific nodes without > >> rebuilding the design. > > > > That is one thing I dislike about FPGAs, certainly. On the other hand, > > I've had problems iwth (expensive commeraical) simualtrs that either fail > > to show glitches when they do exist, show glitches where the can't > > possibly exist, or generally have problems. > > Sure, I've had that too. A lot of the problem is that the FPGA > synthesizers try to infer what you mean in the HDL as registers and Yes, had that too. YEs, I do want ot be warned if the CAD tool thinks my desin is a bad idea, but I also want to be able to say 'OK, build it just as I've shown it'. Alas my expereicen of FPGA tools is that they're very good at moaning about some tirival problems while not spottign major ones (hint : I've I've designed a lot of circuitry, and the output is always zero becuase I've accidentally tied an enable pin low rather than high i nthe schematic capture program, it's likely I've made a mistake!). > lookup tables, and sometimes your code varies from their inference > template just enough that you get the wrong hardware. Great -- NOT! > It's a pain, about as much as a compiler generating incorrect machine > code (see the m88k gcc saga). And of course the simulators live in a > world full of binary signals and finite time granularity where two > things can actually happen at the exact same instant, which of course And a lot of simulators have problems when you have significant external hardware connected to the IC. Somethat that can and does generate complex bitstreams linked to the circuit you're tryign to simulate causes a lot of headaches. At least one FPGA simulator I used didn't allow the imputs to the simulator to depend on the outputs from said circuitry -- in otehr words you coudl say that at time these inputs must be high, those low, etc but you couldn;'t say that 'if these outputs are in states 01001 then 50ns later these inputs are 00001001' or whater. Simulating a device with external user program store was a right pain. > FPGAs do not. There's more of an art to relating simulation results to > the real world than a lot of people suspect. Indeed there is. CAD tools do not turn a poor designer into a good designer. If the tools are genuinely good, they will make a good designer even better (and said 'good designer' will know when it's appropriate to use them). THis is not helped by many of the adverts for such tools... > > Note that availability is not my problem; it's cost. I could scrounge Alas yes... > them from dead boards, I guess, but a) I hate cannibalizing what could > be working hardware unless it was total garbage in the first place and I agere with you here. I hate stipping an old board for parts if there;s any chance it copuld be used again i nthe original form. You new know when the machine it is to go in will turn up.. On the other hand, if some mroon has sawn off the gold-plated edge fingers (not realising that the board with the conenctors intact is worth a lot more to me than the cost of the gold in said plating) then I may well at least remove the more interesting parts... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:56:46 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:56:46 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Ian King wrote: > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. ?Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? ?-- Ian Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 15 14:53:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:53:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 15, 11 12:55:11 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> > > maybe just your Beeb's world will end in 2011. Zappo zzzzzzzsssssttt > >> > > >> > That confused me at first becasue 'Beeb' has a totally differnt (and > >> > possibly classic-computer-related) meaning over here... > >> > >> Yes, me too - was 'beeb' a common US-ism for BeBox? > > > > I'd never heard it. > > Nor have I. To me, even in the States, "beeb" is a BBC Micro (we Over here 'Beeb' or 'The Beeb' or even 'Auntie Beeb' is a common name for the BBC -- one of the major television and radio broadcasting companies. By extension the name got used to man the BBC microcomputer (as you understnad it). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 15 15:04:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:04:34 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: <4EC26362.6357.14D07BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2011 at 12:44, Ian King wrote: > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for > US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit > microprocessors....? -- Ian Punk jewelry? Theme carpet for your shop? Out of this world massively parallel processor? The 6800 still exists in the form of the Freescale HC11 and HC08 microcontroller line. And the Western Design Center is still make 6502-ish CPUs. I suppose that one coudd argue than any x86 CPU is just a massively enhanced 8008. :) --Chuck From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Nov 15 15:06:37 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:06:37 +0000 Subject: [SunHELP] Developer's Edge book free pdf on Oracle Blogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201111152106.pAFL6f0G032323@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> From: Kevin Bowling > Also, the link is not working for me :( I'm not sure why, sorry about that. The book is now on the front page of Darryl's blog. Hopefully this link will work: http://blogs.oracle.com/d From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:07:45 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:07:45 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2D4A1.8040703@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian Build a giant 8-bit parallel numerical coprocessor? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 15 15:09:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:09:22 -0500 Subject: FPGA history (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC2D502.7010702@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2011 02:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Am I theonly person to feel it's ridiculous to have reserach papers > re-discovering information that is already known ot some people (those > who work for the FPGA manufactuer). I feel that research should solve > genuine problems that nobody knows the answer too, not artificial ones to > whci hthe anser is known but 'we won't tell you'. "Knowledge is power", and tie-wearing thieves who otherwise would have no use at all make themselves powerful by hoarding knowledge. Keeping secrets, in everything from technical documentation to employee salaries, makes otherwise-unimportant people feel important. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:15:36 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:15:36 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Ian King wrote: >> According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian > > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? I have one that probably is a contender for that title. Two machines each with 68010 @10MHz. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 15 15:19:01 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:19:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: FPGA history (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111152119.QAA08104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Here is a series of papers about more recent efforts to generate >> configuration bits without using the vendor tools: >> [...] > Am I theonly person to feel it's ridiculous to have reserach papers > re-discovering information that is already known ot some people > (those who work for the FPGA manufactuer). I feel that research > should solve genuine problems that nobody knows the answer too, not > artificial ones to whci hthe anser is known but 'we won't tell you'. If that is all the paper does, I agree. (I haven't checked any of those papers to see whether that's true of them.) But if the paper develops useful and interesting techniques while solving a nominal problem whose answer is already known somewhere else, those techniques can be interesting and valuable in their own right. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:21:52 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:21:52 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2011 4:13 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Ian King wrote: > > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian That's only 11cents per chip. Sell the rest for a $1 and you still come out way ahead. > > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? > How slow is it really when its all parallel ;) =Dan From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:26:06 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:26:06 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >> What is the oldest microprocessor still being manufactured? Z80? > > I've found two release dates for the Z-80, May or July, 1976. I > wasn't as quickly able to find the specific release date for the 6502, > but it was sometime in 1976, IIRC. Technically, the 6502 isn't still being manufactured. The 65C02 is, but given that it's a complete design overhaul with some slightly incompatible variations/bugfixes from the NMOS 6502 (and a few bonus instructions), would that really count? I guess modern Z80s are roughly in the same boat, but I've never gotten much into the Z80 world. I don't think many foundries run NMOS processes anymore, in any case (I could be totally and completely wrong). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:27:17 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:27:17 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0071AE10-6CEB-4CE7-9EBA-40A49A84F036@gmail.com> On Nov 15, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Ian King wrote: >> ISTM the 1802 is still being made by Intersil. >> > > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian Repair broken military devices that you can then sell back to the DoD as EOL extensions for $5,000? - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:37:52 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:37:52 -0600 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2DBB0.9020703@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Ian King wrote: >> According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian > > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? That is oddly appealing. (this coming from someone who was scrabbling around a few years ago for '386 PCs to turn into the world's worst raytracing cluster) cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 15 15:59:48 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:59:48 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2E0D4.8060200@brouhaha.com> Ian King wrote: > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct > for US$108.10 per thousand. You misinterpreted that. It's $108.10 *each* in quantity 1000. > Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? I'd suggest SETI at home or Folding at home, if you weren't in any hurry, except that they don't have open-source clients that could be ported to the 1802. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 15 16:12:07 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:12:07 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I have one that probably is a contender for that title. > Two machines each with 68010 @10MHz. Not even close. Possibly Ciarcia's multiprocessor 8751 system for Mandelbrot set computations, in the October/November/December 1988 Byte magazines. It was awesomely slow. In that timeframe I was using a single Motorola DSP56001 to do Mandelbrot set computations, and it was *much* faster than an array of 8051s. Somewhere I still have a printed listing of the assembly code. The loop for a single-precision iteration was five instructions. The double-precision loop was a lot longer. Originally I did this with a 386 PC, but later hooked it up to a Macintosh, and Dave Platt added plugin support to MandelZot so I could use it without writing an entire custom Macintosh application. I see that Tristan did used the DSP56001 with an Amiga host for Mandelbrot set computations around 1990: http://lorachnroll.blogspot.com/2010/03/old-hand-made-co-processor-for-my-amiga.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 15 16:24:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:24:37 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2E6A5.40707@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2011 04:26 PM, David Riley wrote: > I guess modern Z80s are roughly in the same boat, but I've never gotten much into the Z80 world. I don't think many foundries run NMOS processes anymore, in any case (I could be totally and completely wrong). Well...there are modern implementations of the Z80, with wider address buses, MMUs, lots of speed (relative to the older ones), features, etc. Essentially the same thing that happened to the x86. But then there's the plain old Z80, which, the last time I checked, was still being produced. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 15 16:25:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:25:56 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: <4EC27674.1226.19785BE@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2011 at 16:21, Dan Roganti wrote: > How slow is it really when its all parallel ;) Isn't that sort of related to the old "bandwidth of a station wagon full of 9 track tapes" chestnut? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 16:29:31 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:29:31 -0600 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC26362.6357.14D07BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com>, , <4EC26362.6357.14D07BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC2E7CB.9050604@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suppose that one coudd argue than any x86 CPU is just a massively > enhanced 8008. :) Or an 8008 with a *lot* of baggage. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 16:42:08 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:42:08 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2DBB0.9020703@gmail.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2DBB0.9020703@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? > > That is oddly appealing. > > (this coming from someone who was scrabbling around a few years ago for '386 > PCs to turn into the world's worst raytracing cluster) I would think a container of Amiga 2000s would be a candidate for that - they _were_ used for raytracing back in the day, but a 7.18MHz 68K with no hardware assist isn't going to trace those rays very quickly (remember how long it took to render The Juggler without an accelerator?) -ethan From drb at msu.edu Tue Nov 15 16:42:09 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:42:09 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:44:04 PST.) References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111115224209.E8B25A7334@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 > per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit > microprocessors. ...? -- Ian Sure that's not $108.10 each in quantities of a thousand? 'Cuz if they're $0.11 each, I might have to bite. De From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 16:47:08 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:47:08 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2E0D4.8060200@brouhaha.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2E0D4.8060200@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ian King wrote: >> According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct >> for US$108.10 per thousand. > > You misinterpreted that. ?It's $108.10 *each* in quantity 1000. While I would probably have phrased that as $108.10 q.1000, I, at least, did get what you meant. The last time I looked into purchasing 1802s (because of Bob Armstrong's Elf2000), c. 2004, they were around $70 each. Fortunately I have a few lying about of various formulations (1802A, 1802B, 1802C, 1802D...) so I'm not in the market to buy at the moment. I even have more spare CPU chips than assembled boards (8 different models, at least). >> Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? > > I'd suggest SETI at home or Folding at home, if you weren't in any hurry, except > that they don't have open-source clients that could be ported to the 1802. Even assuming that the software could be magically created with no effort, ISTR there's an expiry mechanism in the SETI at Home client that if you request a work unit and don't return it in a few days or weeks, it's discarded. I could be mistaken about that, but I remember it from way back that essentially it put a de facto lower bound on the amount of CPU you could throw at the problem and have your results considered. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 17:04:13 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:04:13 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2DBB0.9020703@gmail.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2DBB0.9020703@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian >> Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? > > That is oddly appealing. > > (this coming from someone who was scrabbling around a few years ago for '386 PCs to turn into the world's worst raytracing cluster) Let's be honest, it doesn't sound much worse than Larabee. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 17:18:42 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:18:42 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC2F352.1000807@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I have one that probably is a contender for that title. > > Two machines each with 68010 @10MHz. > > Not even close. > > Possibly Ciarcia's multiprocessor 8751 system for Mandelbrot set > computations, in the October/November/December 1988 Byte magazines. It > was awesomely slow. Yeah, but was it actually *Beowulf*? Peace... Sridhar From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 15 17:34:49 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:34:49 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2E6A5.40707@neurotica.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2E6A5.40707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC2F719.2020905@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > But then there's the plain old Z80, which, the last > time I checked, was still being produced. No plain, which was NMOS. Only the "C" midfix, which is CMOS. E.g., Z84C00 CPU. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 15 17:44:59 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:44:59 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2F352.1000807@gmail.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> <4EC2F352.1000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2F97B.1090406@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Possibly Ciarcia's multiprocessor 8751 system for Mandelbrot set > computations, in the October/November/December 1988 Byte magazines. It > was awesomely slow. Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Yeah, but was it actually *Beowulf*? According to Wikipedia: "There is no particular piece of software that defines a cluster as a Beowulf." So I'm going to claim that it is. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 15 17:52:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:52:14 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2F352.1000807@gmail.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> <4EC2F352.1000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2FB2E.6090709@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2011 06:18 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Possibly Ciarcia's multiprocessor 8751 system for Mandelbrot set >> computations, in the October/November/December 1988 Byte magazines. It >> was awesomely slow. > > Yeah, but was it actually *Beowulf*? Meaning "Linux + MPI"? No. But it was awfully cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 15 18:14:50 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:14:50 -0500 Subject: plotting Mandelbrot in the late 1980s - Re: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC3007A.5060506@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/11/11 5:12 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I have one that probably is a contender for that title. > > Two machines each with 68010 @10MHz. > > Not even close. > > Possibly Ciarcia's multiprocessor 8751 system for Mandelbrot set > computations, in the October/November/December 1988 Byte magazines. It > was awesomely slow. > > In that timeframe I was using a single Motorola DSP56001 to do > Mandelbrot set computations, and it was *much* faster than an array of > 8051s. Somewhere I still have a printed listing of the assembly code. > The loop for a single-precision iteration was five instructions. The > double-precision loop was a lot longer. Originally I did this with a 386 > PC, but later hooked it up to a Macintosh, and Dave Platt added plugin > support to MandelZot so I could use it without writing an entire custom > Macintosh application. > In that timeframe I fixed some bugs in Levco's Mandelbrot demo for their Translink Transputer board for Macintosh NuBus, which on two T800's was handily faster than the host Mac (a IIcx, probably). In fact, a single T800 was quite a bit faster even for integer work. I think I still have the code lying around, and the board. --T > I see that Tristan did used the DSP56001 with an Amiga host for > Mandelbrot set computations around 1990: > http://lorachnroll.blogspot.com/2010/03/old-hand-made-co-processor-for-my-amiga.html > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 15 18:28:33 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:28:33 -0500 Subject: FPGA history (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/11/11 2:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Atmel had two families of FPGAs, the AT40K and the AT6000. They are both >> tiny and limited by today's standards, but teh AT6000 (if I remember >> correctly) did have its configuration bits fully documented and for a >> while I considered using it in my projects for this reason. > > I assume said chips are very hard to find now. That's the other problem I > find withFPGAs and their ilk -- they're discontinued and replaced very > freqeuntly. And then you have to updata your tools for the new device and > hope it really does behave identically. At least with plain old TTL I can > still get a 14 pin chip that behaves in much the same way as the > original 7400, albeit faster and with less power consumption > >> There was a project to figure out the configuration bits for Virtex >> chips which was part of a larger project to build a PDP-10 with FPGAs. I >> don't think either was finished: >> >> http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/VirtexTools/ >> >> Here is a series of papers about more recent efforts to generate >> configuration bits without using the vendor tools: >>... > Am I theonly person to feel it's ridiculous to have reserach papers > re-discovering information that is already known ot some people No, you're not the only one. The status quo is ridiculously inefficient. Even worse were the threats mentioned earlier that the somebody will 'make trouble' if certain directions are pursued. There are words for that kind of thing. --T > (those > who work for the FPGA manufactuer). I feel that research should solve > genuine problems that nobody knows the answer too, not artificial ones to > whci hthe anser is known but 'we won't tell you'. > > -tony > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 19:13:33 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:13:33 -0600 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC30E3D.7070305@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I have one that probably is a contender for that title. > > Two machines each with 68010 @10MHz. > > Not even close. > > Possibly Ciarcia's multiprocessor 8751 system for Mandelbrot set > computations, in the October/November/December 1988 Byte magazines. It > was awesomely slow. Is that online anywhere? I wouldn't mind a read. A quick google showed a couple of Byte archives that were no longer functional, and one working one which only went as recent as 1986. cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 15 19:27:31 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:27:31 -0700 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC30E3D.7070305@gmail.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2D678.9010809@gmail.com> <4EC2E3B7.6030707@brouhaha.com> <4EC30E3D.7070305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC31183.1010604@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/15/2011 6:13 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? >> >> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> > I have one that probably is a contender for that title. >> > Two machines each with 68010 @10MHz. >> >> Not even close. >> >> Possibly Ciarcia's multiprocessor 8751 system for Mandelbrot set >> computations, in the October/November/December 1988 Byte magazines. It >> was awesomely slow. > > Is that online anywhere? I wouldn't mind a read. A quick google showed a > couple of Byte archives that were no longer functional, and one working > one which only went as recent as 1986. > > cheers > > Jules > They may have something here: http://www.circuitcellar.com/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 15 19:34:32 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:34:32 +0000 Subject: FreeBee (AT&T 3B1 emulator) -- pagefault handling fixed! Message-ID: <4EC31328.4070107@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just uploaded a new version of my AT&T 3B1 emulator: http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/ Andrew Warkentin sent me two patches this morning which fix a long-standing CPU emulation bug and an issue with the polarity of the UDS and LDS bits in the BSR0 register. The end result of this is that the current TIP build will run the full battery of PVTEST CPU diagnostics, with the exception of the hard disk controller test (which is hardly surprising seeing as I haven't implemented the HDC). For reference -- this is either the Simple Mode CPU test, or the Expert mode (s4test) Test 12,0 (group 12, ALL subtests). Still to do: - Hard disc controller emulation - Fix the floppy controller implementation (this still fails PVTEST with a Read Timeout error, but boots the Test disk correctly...) - Add support for emulating the different motherboard revisions - Add some form of status bar along the bottom (disc status, heartbeat/status LEDs and so on) - Add some form of UI to allow disc images to be swapped in and out - Serial I/O and modem emulation (or at least enough of a facsimile to fake out the I/O tests). - Add some way of triggering the extended keys (a PC keyboard doesn't have enough keys to emulate the entire 3B1 keyboard). - Try and reduce the CPU load. It currently runs my 1.6GHz AMD MV40-based laptop at near 100% CPU... Comments, criticisms and patches are, as always welcome Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Nov 15 19:40:37 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:40:37 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> FWIW, I love simulation with FPGAs. It usually reveals my beginner mistakes, and is a pretty powerful tool to help test your design. While I haven't done enough to demonstrate it, there are differences between simulation and real hardware. Altera's synthesis tools are pretty nice and do things like identifying metastability problems, and telling you approximately how long until data becomes stable. I was using someone else's design that had an issue, and it reported 17ns of metastability. For a quick fix, I added a couple 10ns wait-states, and the design worked immediately. I understand the right fixes are dual clocked FIFOs, dual flip-flop synchronizers, etc. While I create my designs with pen and paper first, the simulation can show step by step, clock for clock, what's happening, what state I'm currently in, and for what reason it transitioned. Because I'm working with two different systems, a 5v TTL system, and a 3.3v LVTTL system (the FPGA), I wasn't able to directly connect them, but I wanted some verification that my hardware I described is working as it should. I attached my logic analyzer to the 5v system and captured data. Then, after exporting that data and massaging it a little, was able to import that into my simulation and watch how my hardware (would have) processed those set of signals. Very cool -- there was no easy way to test this otherwise. Plus you can test things like boundary conditions that shouldn't ever show up in real life --- to see if your error handling works as it should. On a side note, I like using FPGA boards over just wiring up some chips together. I can access hundreds of open source modules, modules that ship from the vendor, macros, primitives, libraries, and so on. I couldn't imagine what your parts library would have to look like in order to accomplish the same thing with physical parts. Plus, it comes down to speed. Using gate-level verilog, I can plunk down a couple gates, wire in a switch, wire up an LED, whatever in a matter of seconds. Compile, push the configuration, and play with it. Probably before your soldering iron heats up completely. (har har) And then wack the HDL, start something different, use the onboard memory blocks, PLLs, etc. I really enjoy this method of design for my hobby. Keith From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 19:42:12 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:42:12 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Technically, the 6502 isn't still being manufactured. Technically, many of these older chips may not actually be manufactured anymore, and are available only because of stockpiles in warehouses. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 15 20:00:25 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:00:25 -0700 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EC31939.1060106@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/15/2011 6:40 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: When I tried FPGA's I tended to design the hardware first. Simulation does not help, when the design does not fit in the FPGA you are using. > > I really enjoy this method of design for my hobby. > > Keith > From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Nov 15 20:33:46 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:33:46 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC31939.1060106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC31939.1060106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC3210A.5000802@verizon.net> On 11/15/2011 9:00 PM, ben wrote: > When I tried FPGA's I tended to design the hardware first. > Simulation does not help, when the design does not fit in the FPGA > you are using. True, but your compilation tools _will_ tell you that. It will tell you exactly how many of which type of resources are required, and since you can target different platforms (heck, different vendors if you were careful with your HDL) without even owning/having the hardware. Keith From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Nov 15 20:59:54 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 02:59:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: <4EC2E0D4.8060200@brouhaha.com> References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2E0D4.8060200@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > Ian King wrote: >> According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct >> for US$108.10 per thousand. > > You misinterpreted that. It's $108.10 *each* in quantity 1000. If that's true, then how is Lee Hart able to sell the entire 1802 membership card kit for $79? Alexey From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:07:00 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:07:00 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2E0D4.8060200@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> You misinterpreted that. ?It's $108.10 *each* in quantity 1000. > > If that's true, then how is Lee Hart able to sell the entire 1802 membership > card kit for $79? Surplus channels. I've never paid more than $20 for NOS 1802s, and I've gotten them by the tube in the past 10 years for as little as $5 each. Large companies have different buying habits than hobbyist vendors. -ethan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 15 21:08:44 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:08:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC3210A.5000802@verizon.net> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC31939.1060106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC3210A.5000802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201111160308.WAA13248@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Simulation does not help, when the design does not fit in the FPGA >> you are using. > True, but your compilation tools _will_ tell you that. Maybe. Depends on what "does not fit" means here. If it means "needs more gates (or whatever) than", yes. If it means "critical pieces of the design cannot be implemented in FPGA at all", then they probably cannot be represented to the compilation tool either and thus it can't even be aware they exist. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 15 21:09:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:09:33 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2E0D4.8060200@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC3296D.6040404@neurotica.com> On 11/15/2011 09:59 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>> According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct >>> for US$108.10 per thousand. >> >> You misinterpreted that. It's $108.10 *each* in quantity 1000. > > If that's true, then how is Lee Hart able to sell the entire 1802 > membership card kit for $79? I bought two tubes of 1802s on eBay about two years ago for $20/ea...they're not rare. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 15 21:21:03 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:21:03 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> <4EC2E0D4.8060200@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC32C1F.4010407@brouhaha.com> Ian King wrote: > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct > for US$108.10 per thousand. I wrote: > You misinterpreted that. It's $108.10 *each* in quantity 1000. Alexey Toptygin wrote: > If that's true, then how is Lee Hart able to sell the > entire 1802 membership card kit for $79? Simple. He's not buying them direct from Intersil. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 15 21:27:45 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:27:45 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111160308.WAA13248@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC31939.1060106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC3210A.5000802@verizon.net> <201111160308.WAA13248@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EC32DB1.1040600@brouhaha.com> Mouse wrote: > Maybe. Depends on what "does not fit" means here. [...] > If it means "critical pieces of the design cannot be implemented in > FPGA at all", then they probably cannot be represented to the > compilation tool either and thus it can't even be aware they exist. I'm not sure what kind of problem you're trying to describe here. Can you give an example? I've found that Verilog can be used to model any digital logic design I can think of, including a lot of things that can't be done in an FPGA, and that the synthesizer does a good job of alerting me to that kind of issue. VHDL is more expressive in some ways than Verilog, but cannot represent transmission gates, while Verilog can. However, FPGAs generally don't have transmission gates exposed to the user, so it isn't a problem for FPGA design. As far as I know, there is no reasonable logic design using transmission gates that can't be restructured to use something else instead. Transmission gates are really a hardware optimization, and not part of pure digital design. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Nov 15 21:55:25 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:55:25 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation Message-ID: > As far as I know, there is no reasonable logic design > using transmission gates that can't be restructured to use something > else instead. Probably true but some designs using transmission gates are so incredibly elegant. Look up Caldwell and Keister-Ritchie-Washburn and you will find that there are some classes of problems that are handled very nicely with transmission gates (AKA relays) but are cumbersome with more modern symbology. This class of problem is broadly called "iterative networks". And these are real world problems important to designers of low to high complexity systems in that era. Interestingly, since the modern tools no longer make these problems feasible, hardly anyone tries to solve them with the same efficiency anymore. (Some of the combinatoric problems that are easy with iterative networks happen to overlap closely with classic cryptography BTW.) > Transmission gates are really a hardware optimization, > and not part of pure digital design. Maybe, if you definition of pure digital design limits you to NANDS for example. But all the logic design handbooks/textbooks up until the 60's were inclusive of transmission gates as basic elements. Tim. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 15 22:13:13 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:13:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC32DB1.1040600@brouhaha.com> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC31939.1060106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC3210A.5000802@verizon.net> <201111160308.WAA13248@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC32DB1.1040600@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201111160413.XAA14401@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Maybe. Depends on what "does not fit" means here. > [...] >> If it means "critical pieces of the design cannot be implemented in >> FPGA at all", [...] > I'm not sure what kind of problem you're trying to describe here. > Can you give an example? For example, if a critical piece of the design is analog electronics, not digital at all. As a really simple example, it involve a D/A or A/D converter. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 15 22:20:00 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:20:00 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111160413.XAA14401@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC31939.1060106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4EC3210A.5000802@verizon.net> <201111160308.WAA13248@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC32DB1.1040600@brouhaha.com> <201111160413.XAA14401@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EC339F0.7020107@brouhaha.com> Mouse wrote: > For example, if a critical piece of the design is analog electronics, > not digital at all. As a really simple example, it involve a D/A or > A/D converter. VHDL lets you design such things, as does System Verilog. The FPGA synthesis tools will certainly tell you that it can't fit it into an FPGA. That said, it is possible to implement some types of A/D and D/A converters in an FPGA with only a few external components. There are application notes about that. Obviously the capabilities are very limited compared to normal ADC and DAC parts, but there are times when it is nevertheless quite useful. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 15 22:57:48 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:57:48 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com>, , , , Message-ID: > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Ian King wrote: > > According to the Intersil website, you can buy them direct for US$108.10 per thousand. Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian > > Build the worlds slowest Beowulf Cluster? > > -ethan > the 1802 is quite common in street light controllers. I'm sure they need replacing every now and then. Dwight From tpresence at hotmail.com Tue Nov 15 12:03:51 2011 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (The Presence) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:03:51 -0700 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Xilinx ML605 Dev kit I would be willing to attempt this with if someone thinks its valuable, but I am a newcomer when it comes to FPGA. I do have the full toolsuite. Kevin From theatomicfrog at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:28:06 2011 From: theatomicfrog at gmail.com (NE Naim) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:28:06 -0500 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: References: <4EC2C5B4.9060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC2D966.70301@atomicfrog.com> On 11/15/2011 3:44 PM, Ian King wrote: Now what would I do with a thousand 8-bit microprocessors....? -- Ian > > > Make a quad speed iMac? "Hey, this stuff's pretty good.....What is it?" -Socrates 399 B.C. XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more. "Microsoft's biggest and most dangerous contribution to the software industry may be the degree to which it has lowered user expectations." -OS/2 Magazine From philpem at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 15 19:34:08 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:34:08 +0000 Subject: FreeBee (AT&T 3B1 emulator) -- pagefault handling fixed! Message-ID: <4EC31310.4090200@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just uploaded a new version of my AT&T 3B1 emulator: http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/ Andrew Warkentin sent me two patches this morning which fix a long-standing CPU emulation bug and an issue with the polarity of the UDS and LDS bits in the BSR0 register. The end result of this is that the current TIP build will run the full battery of PVTEST CPU diagnostics, with the exception of the hard disk controller test (which is hardly surprising seeing as I haven't implemented the HDC). For reference -- this is either the Simple Mode CPU test, or the Expert mode (s4test) Test 12,0 (group 12, ALL subtests). Still to do: - Hard disc controller emulation - Fix the floppy controller implementation (this still fails PVTEST with a Read Timeout error, but boots the Test disk correctly...) - Add support for emulating the different motherboard revisions - Add some form of status bar along the bottom (disc status, heartbeat/status LEDs and so on) - Add some form of UI to allow disc images to be swapped in and out - Serial I/O and modem emulation (or at least enough of a facsimile to fake out the I/O tests). - Add some way of triggering the extended keys (a PC keyboard doesn't have enough keys to emulate the entire 3B1 keyboard). - Try and reduce the CPU load. It currently runs my 1.6GHz AMD MV40-based laptop at near 100% CPU... Comments, criticisms and patches are, as always welcome :) Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 15 22:03:22 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:03:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321416202.15103.YahooMailClassic@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> THE BLOOMINN BEEB IS WHATEVER IS SAY IT IS From spedraja at ono.com Wed Nov 16 01:24:15 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:24:15 +0100 Subject: FreeBee (AT&T 3B1 emulator) -- pagefault handling fixed! In-Reply-To: <4EC31328.4070107@philpem.me.uk> References: <4EC31328.4070107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Dear Philip: My sincere congrats. My 3B1 is in working state (hard disk, floppy, MS-DOS emulation). I have some doubt about its serial port becasue I couldn't put it to work until now, but perhaps is a matter of my dammned serial cables (not a surprise). If I can help you in something, let me know. Oh, and if someone could provide me with *REAL* floppy disks burned with the UNIX development environment for the version... 3.51 ? (I am not sure in this moment) it would be great, and I should pay for the task and items involved. Regards Sergio (SPc) 2011/11/16 Philip Pemberton > Hi guys, > > I've just uploaded a new version of my AT&T 3B1 emulator: > http://hg.philpem.me.uk/**3b1emu/ > > Andrew Warkentin sent me two patches this morning which fix a > long-standing CPU emulation bug and an issue with the polarity of the UDS > and LDS bits in the BSR0 register. > > The end result of this is that the current TIP build will run the full > battery of PVTEST CPU diagnostics, with the exception of the hard disk > controller test (which is hardly surprising seeing as I haven't implemented > the HDC). For reference -- this is either the Simple Mode CPU test, or the > Expert mode (s4test) Test 12,0 (group 12, ALL subtests). > > Still to do: > - Hard disc controller emulation > - Fix the floppy controller implementation (this still fails PVTEST with > a Read Timeout error, but boots the Test disk correctly...) > - Add support for emulating the different motherboard revisions > - Add some form of status bar along the bottom (disc status, > heartbeat/status LEDs and so on) > - Add some form of UI to allow disc images to be swapped in and out > - Serial I/O and modem emulation (or at least enough of a facsimile to > fake out the I/O tests). > - Add some way of triggering the extended keys (a PC keyboard doesn't > have enough keys to emulate the entire 3B1 keyboard). > - Try and reduce the CPU load. It currently runs my 1.6GHz AMD MV40-based > laptop at near 100% CPU... > > Comments, criticisms and patches are, as always welcome > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 16 02:12:33 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 00:12:33 -0800 Subject: Oldest CPU Chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/15/11 5:42 PM, "William Donzelli" wrote: >> Technically, the 6502 isn't still being manufactured. > > Technically, many of these older chips may not actually be manufactured > anymore, and are available only because of stockpiles in warehouses. > > -- > Will > Someone mentioned the 68HC11 chips. Those were EOL a while back and the remaining ones out there are existing stock. They have a new chip that is code backwards compatible 99% (there are a few things that the new chip doesn't have that the old one does) and I think that the new chip is a 3.3v device as opposed to 5V device. (the site controller and door controller devices I have been repairing are 68hc11 based and are no longer produced because the company that was making them was buying their chips from a supplier in thailand that got flooded out and one of the casualties was a huge stock of 68hc11 ic's :( ) From tingox at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 02:18:29 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:18:29 +0100 Subject: FreeBee (AT&T 3B1 emulator) -- pagefault handling fixed! In-Reply-To: <4EC31328.4070107@philpem.me.uk> References: <4EC31328.4070107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hello, On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:34 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've just uploaded a new version of my AT&T 3B1 emulator: > ?http://hg.philpem.me.uk/3b1emu/ > > Andrew Warkentin sent me two patches this morning which fix a long-standing > CPU emulation bug and an issue with the polarity of the UDS and LDS bits in > the BSR0 register. Nice progress. Well done! -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 08:19:31 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:19:31 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC339F0.7020107@brouhaha.com> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>,<4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC31939.1060106@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4EC3210A.5000802@verizon.net>, <201111160308.WAA13248@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4EC32DB1.1040600@brouhaha.com>, <201111160413.XAA14401@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4EC339F0.7020107@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > Mouse wrote: > > For example, if a critical piece of the design is analog electronics, > > not digital at all. As a really simple example, it involve a D/A or > > A/D converter. > > VHDL lets you design such things, as does System Verilog. The FPGA > synthesis tools will certainly tell you that it can't fit it into an FPGA. > > That said, it is possible to implement some types of A/D and D/A > converters in an FPGA with only a few external components. There are > application notes about that. Obviously the capabilities are very > limited compared to normal ADC and DAC parts, but there are times when > it is nevertheless quite useful. > Verilog doesn't deal well with simulaneous clocks into a set/reset latch that in real life work fine. It doesn't deal well with anything that is bidirectional, be it resistor, transmission gate or what have you. For each of these problems special simulations need to be created to handle the behavior of that circuit. Differential logic is hopeless. Self timed logic is a joke. Still, for just normal logic it can be made to work and that is what FPGA are intended to do. Dwight From james at slor.net Wed Nov 16 11:28:25 2011 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:28:25 -0500 Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <201111111906.pABJ6UKa012608@floodgap.com> References: <201111111906.pABJ6UKa012608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <024001cca485$2681d3f0$73857bd0$@slor.net> If your BeBox is like my x86 installation, you'll find that the year can still be set properly (and is probably still right if you didn't apply anything from the applet) from a terminal session. File dates are correct, etc., so it seems to just be a limitation of the config panel. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:07 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 > > Or at least my BeBox does: the Time control panel won't let me enter the > year 2011. I set it to 2005 since that was the calendar match. > > I can't find anywhere that addresses this for R5 -- anyone know? The epoch > seems to start in 1965, so assuming it is a 32-bit time counter, internally it > should still be able to handle that. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm taking punk totem pole carving." ----- From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Nov 16 11:55:22 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:55:22 -0500 Subject: Xerox Star on Ebay Message-ID: <201111161755.pAGHtbV5067590@billy.ezwind.net> Xerox Star on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270854962233 Let me know if you have questions. Bill From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 16 12:12:40 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:12:40 -0700 Subject: Xerox Star on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201111161755.pAGHtbV5067590@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201111161755.pAGHtbV5067590@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201111161755.pAGHtbV5067590 at billy.ezwind.net>, B Degnan writes: > Xerox Star on Ebay > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270854962233 > Let me know if you have questions. The obvious question is what is the reserve price? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 16 12:15:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:15:24 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Nov 2011 at 20:40, Keith Monahan wrote: > FWIW, I love simulation with FPGAs. It usually reveals my beginner > mistakes, and is a pretty powerful tool to help test your design. > While I haven't done enough to demonstrate it, there are differences > between simulation and real hardware. This and Tony's comment about using discrete logic rather than FPGA points up an interesting, but important, limitation of FPGAs (and CPLDs): they're clocked designs. While Tony can use his 7400-series logic to implement an asynchronous design, almost all FPGA implementations must have a clock of some sort. Not every design employing logic is a CPU and not all employ clocked logic. Someone who wants to substitute, say, a CPLD for a bunch of unclocked TTL is going to have to come up with a clock--and then determine how that will affect function. Achronix is the only vendor that I can recall offhand even discussing aysnchronous FPGAs--and it's not even clear to me if they're still offering them. Simulation must be a nightmare. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 16 12:32:15 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:32:15 -0700 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC401AF.9040207@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/16/2011 11:15 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > While Tony can use his 7400-series logic to implement an asynchronous > design, almost all FPGA implementations must have a clock of some > sort. > > Not every design employing logic is a CPU and not all employ clocked > logic. > I thought that was just to cover up the fact the logic glitches. > Someone who wants to substitute, say, a CPLD for a bunch of unclocked > TTL is going to have to come up with a clock--and then determine how > that will affect function. > > Achronix is the only vendor that I can recall offhand even discussing > aysnchronous FPGAs--and it's not even clear to me if they're still > offering them. Simulation must be a nightmare. Why? It just points out the new logic has lots routing timing skew. > --Chuck > Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 16 12:38:09 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:38:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] almost all FPGA implementations must have a clock of some sort. Oh! That's a very important thing I hadn't known before. I'd been assuming an FPGA was, well, a big chipful of gates which you wired up however you wanted, and which then behaved like, well, the bunch of gates you've wired them up as; whether any of the signals those gates processed could be considered a clock would be irrelevant. I'm glad to have this mental model corrected _before_ I did anything based on it. That's a pretty crippling limitation for many purposes. > Not every design employing logic is a CPU and not all employ clocked > logic. Quite. I have a boardful of TTL which I designed and built to allow a parallel port to control (via relays, driven off discrete transistors controlled by logic levels) a bunch of mains outlets. There are a few signals which could sort of be seen as clocks - for example, one of them drives the clock input to a shift register - but no global clock that applies to the whole circuit. Would this be unrepresentable in an FPGA - or, rather, would it have to be redesigned to operate with a global clock to be representable in an FPGA? You make it sound like it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From g at kurico.com Wed Nov 16 12:42:15 2011 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:42:15 -0600 Subject: Xerox Star on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201111161755.pAGHtbV5067590@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201111161755.pAGHtbV5067590@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <79802557-3E61-498B-A150-840EE9019379@kurico.com> On Nov 16, 2011, at 11:55 AM, B Degnan wrote: > Xerox Star on Ebay > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270854962233 > Let me know if you have questions. > Bill Oy! I'd love to get my hands on the keyboard/mouse/terminal, don't suppose you'd part it . From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:48:18 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:48:18 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5792DCFD-513E-451F-AEE0-22B71B2E69A1@gmail.com> On Nov 16, 2011, at 1:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Nov 2011 at 20:40, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> FWIW, I love simulation with FPGAs. It usually reveals my beginner >> mistakes, and is a pretty powerful tool to help test your design. >> While I haven't done enough to demonstrate it, there are differences >> between simulation and real hardware. > > This and Tony's comment about using discrete logic rather than FPGA > points up an interesting, but important, limitation of FPGAs (and > CPLDs): they're clocked designs. > > While Tony can use his 7400-series logic to implement an asynchronous > design, almost all FPGA implementations must have a clock of some > sort. Well. Technically, you CAN run an FPGA or CPLD completely combinationally (a real CPLD, after all, is basically a bunch of PALs glued together; Altera's MAX II "CPLDs" are really just tiny FPGAs). There's no requirement to use any registers at all. However, it drives the timing closure engines completely nuts because they're designed to analyze synchronous designs. You can write the HDL any way you want. > Achronix is the only vendor that I can recall offhand even discussing > aysnchronous FPGAs--and it's not even clear to me if they're still > offering them. Simulation must be a nightmare. Their stuff looked nice, but like so many other recent challengers to FPGAs these days (like those guys with the math-specific chip, etc), I haven't seen anything come out that's really usable. - Dave From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Nov 16 12:56:46 2011 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:56:46 +0000 Subject: Xerox Star on Ebay In-Reply-To: <79802557-3E61-498B-A150-840EE9019379@kurico.com> References: <201111161755.pAGHtbV5067590@billy.ezwind.net> <79802557-3E61-498B-A150-840EE9019379@kurico.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:42 PM, George Currie wrote: > On Nov 16, 2011, at 11:55 AM, B Degnan wrote: > >> Xerox Star on Ebay >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270854962233 >> Let me know if you have questions. >> Bill > > Oy! ?I'd love to get my hands on the keyboard/mouse/terminal, don't suppose you'd part it . > I want that. By the way, anyone got a copy of Oregon Software Pascal II for RSTS/E? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." -John F. Kennedy From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 13:00:36 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:00:36 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [...] almost all FPGA implementations must have a clock of some sort. > > Oh! That's a very important thing I hadn't known before. I'd been > assuming an FPGA was, well, a big chipful of gates which you wired up > however you wanted, and which then behaved like, well, the bunch of > gates you've wired them up as; whether any of the signals those gates > processed could be considered a clock would be irrelevant. It's not entirely true, but FPGAs are definitely designed to run synchronously. You can run as combinationally as you want, but it's not optimized for that and you'll drive the tools nuts. An FPGA is basically a bunch of LUTs which can optionally feed out to either a clocked register or directly to the routing lines. Take a look at the architecture manual of something sometime (Altera's Cyclone manuals are probably a good place to start) and it'll give you a good overview. >> Not every design employing logic is a CPU and not all employ clocked >> logic. > > Quite. > > I have a boardful of TTL which I designed and built to allow a parallel > port to control (via relays, driven off discrete transistors controlled > by logic levels) a bunch of mains outlets. There are a few signals > which could sort of be seen as clocks - for example, one of them drives > the clock input to a shift register - but no global clock that applies > to the whole circuit. Would this be unrepresentable in an FPGA - or, > rather, would it have to be redesigned to operate with a global clock > to be representable in an FPGA? You make it sound like it. It should be doable, but you might be able to achieve better performance, etc. if you were to make it as synchronous as possible. You can certainly have signals that run straight into a pin, go through a whole lot of combinational logic, and come out another pin with no clocks whatsoever. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 16 13:23:11 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:23:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <5792DCFD-513E-451F-AEE0-22B71B2E69A1@gmail.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <5792DCFD-513E-451F-AEE0-22B71B2E69A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111161923.OAA28542@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Well. Technically, you CAN run an FPGA or CPLD completely > combinationally [...]. However, it drives the timing closure engines > completely nuts because they're designed to analyze synchronous > designs. Ah, so the actual crippled piece is in that damn binary blob the vendor requires we use rather than documenting their configuration data. Another reason to dislike having to use their tools: the hardware can do things their tools have trouble with. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 16 13:31:58 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:31:58 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> On 11/16/2011 1:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > This and Tony's comment about using discrete logic rather than FPGA > points up an interesting, but important, limitation of FPGAs (and > CPLDs): they're clocked designs. Chuck: This really isn't true at all. While you are right that most designs are synchronous, there's no limitation or requirement for them to be so. You can do combinatorial logic all day without a clock. module AOI (input A, B, C, D, output F); assign F = ~((A & B) | (C & D)); endmodule is an example. module MUX2 (input SEL, A, B, output F); input SEL, A, B; output F; INV G1 (SEL, SELB); AOI G2 (SELB, A, SEL, B, FB); INV G3 (.A(FB), .F(F)); endmodule I've also simulated these, and it appears to work fine. Maybe in larger more complex designs, there's problems with simulations --- others here will have to testify to that. Am I missing something here? Why doesn't combinatorial logic designed in an FPGA count as a clockless design? Thanks Keith From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 13:40:33 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:40:33 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111161923.OAA28542@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <5792DCFD-513E-451F-AEE0-22B71B2E69A1@gmail.com> <201111161923.OAA28542@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <2C644B37-271E-4F4D-B549-0ABED101DAD6@gmail.com> On Nov 16, 2011, at 2:23 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Well. Technically, you CAN run an FPGA or CPLD completely >> combinationally [...]. However, it drives the timing closure engines >> completely nuts because they're designed to analyze synchronous >> designs. > > Ah, so the actual crippled piece is in that damn binary blob the vendor > requires we use rather than documenting their configuration data. > > Another reason to dislike having to use their tools: the hardware can > do things their tools have trouble with. To be fair, it's not just their tools; it's everyone's tools. Every FPGA vendor I know has hooks to use third-party synthesis engines (such as the big ones also used to design ASICs); the FPGA tools then perform the job of translating their netlists to the device-specific elements and from there into a bitstream. The third-party synthesis tools don't do a lot of timing analysis themselves (that's generally hard to do without knowledge of the underlying hardware), but they often expect synchronous designs. FPGA toolkits will give you pin-to-pin propagation delays when it's appropriate. The CPLD tools are usually better about making that data more apparent, because real CPLDs are fairly register-poor and people do lots of combinational things with them (address decoding and the like). Such data is present in the output reports of the FPGA engines too, but since they assume most people aren't doing that, there's no fancy synopsis export for that. You generally need to grep the very very long timing report. - Dave From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 16 14:15:39 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:15:39 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> On 11/16/2011 2:00 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 16, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I have a boardful of TTL which I designed and built to allow a >> parallel port to control (via relays, driven off discrete >> transistors controlled by logic levels) a bunch of mains outlets. >> There are a few signals which could sort of be seen as clocks - for >> example, one of them drives the clock input to a shift register - >> but no global clock that applies to the whole circuit. Would this >> be unrepresentable in an FPGA - or, rather, would it have to be >> redesigned to operate with a global clock to be representable in an >> FPGA? You make it sound like it. > > It should be doable, but you might be able to achieve better > performance, etc. if you were to make it as synchronous as possible. > You can certainly have signals that run straight into a pin, go > through a whole lot of combinational logic, and come out another pin > with no clocks whatsoever. > > > - Dave For some of the stuff that I do, I have to deal with multiple external asynchronous events and signals. Almost all of my designs are synchronous (usually with a module here or there that is purely combinatorial) and so you normally bring your asynchronous signals into your sync clock domain so that you can deal with it/process it/connect it to other modules, and so forth. My clock is normally much faster on the sync side than the async side, so having enough time to properly receive/sample the signal is easy. When you have multiple signals, it's just a matter of having separate processes(hardware, really) that deal with each signal independently. My designs are mostly finite state machines, because this makes the most sense to me, and I find that I can implement just about anything using one of them. The async signal causes a move from one state to the next, and then I react accordingly. When I've got to react to that async signal and immediately notify another external device, my clock is running fast enough, that the propagation delay through my logic is pretty tight. How long depends on the logic required, but again, since the sync clock is much faster --- it normally doesn't matter. You know, since both Altera's and Xilinx's tools are free --- one can download their multi-platform tools, code up some VHDL/Verilog/RTL/whatever and then simulate it using their included free simulators. Some of the timing analysis stuff is pretty neat to look at too. A lot of the descriptions of tools and simulations breaking down don't show up in normal hobby use. While it's not a fuzzy feeling knowing that the simulators/synthesizers aren't perfect, they are pretty damn good, and work absolutely fine for most small->medium sized projects. I'm still in the process of building my "things to avoid problem list", but there are common rules of thumb that if you follow, you'll likely go down a good path. Expecting these tools to somehow work magic and be 100% bug free is an unrealistic expectation and most people who expect this are drastically underestimating the complexity of tools involved. Modelsim for simulation and synplify pro for synthesis seem to be popular commercial standards. A limited Modelsim is included with Altera software, where Xilinx includes their iSim which isn't horrible. Altera's synthesizer seems to be better (properly inferring the hardware from the HDL, requiring less resources) than Xilinx's XST but this might be a religious war I don't want to start. :) Keith P.S. vi rocks. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 16 14:30:59 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:30:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Expecting these tools to somehow work magic and be 100% bug free is > an unrealistic expectation and most people who expect this are > drastically underestimating the complexity of tools involved. I don't expect any software to be bug-free. However, when they not only don't document enough for users to inspect and/or construct config bitblobs on their own but threaten "trouble" for those who try to deduce that information, their tools - quite aside from the problems inherent in running them at all - must be considered part of their product, with similar perfection requirements; bugs in those tools are just as crippling as bugs in the hardware, under those circumstances. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 16 14:47:00 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:47:00 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2011 at 14:31, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 11/16/2011 1:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > This and Tony's comment about using discrete logic rather than FPGA > > points up an interesting, but important, limitation of FPGAs (and > > CPLDs): they're clocked designs. > > Chuck: This really isn't true at all. While you are right that most > designs are synchronous, there's no limitation or requirement for them > to be so. You can do combinatorial logic all day without a clock. > > module AOI (input A, B, C, D, output F); > assign F = ~((A & B) | (C & D)); > endmodule The few times I've tried to instantiate (right word? HDL-to- implementation) a purely async design, the EDA tools pitch about there being no clock signal. Maybe I'm not RTFM, but I don't think so. --Chuck From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 15:25:42 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:25:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? Message-ID: <1321478742.90658.YahooMailNeo@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A while back, when I was restoring my HP 9825B, I found a great site with lots of beautiful pictures of HP classic computers in various states of disassembly.? I believe it was called "Computer Asylum" at www.bohemiae.com.? Now the site seems to have disappeared.? Did it get relocated, or hidden intentionally by the "warden" of the asylum, or is the site just gone?? It would be a shame if so.? Did anybody happen to archive some of those images and pages? Thanks for any info, Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 15:47:22 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:47:22 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The few times I've tried to instantiate (right word? HDL-to- > implementation) a purely async design, the EDA tools pitch about > there being no clock signal. > > Maybe I'm not RTFM, but I don't think so. Well, yeah, they'll complain, but that doesn't mean they won't build it. They're just confused because for the most part, they're built to expect synchronous designs and figure you're doing something wrong if they can't figure out a clock (and, honestly, for 99% of the designs out there, they're right; most people who are new to FPGAs don't understand what they're doing and develop things wrong and end up leaving out the clock or similar). The CPLD tools tend not to be as bitchy about it, mostly because registers are relatively scarce in CPLDs and so the converse is true; if you're using lots and lots of clocked registers, you're probably not using the right device for the job. My biggest pet peeve about FPGA design tools is the warnings they put out. You generally can't tell it "hey, this module is parameterized and generic so in this instance I'm not using this output", so anything you make properly generically will end up burying the real, important warnings in a sea of noise. You can't even use vendor IP (I'm especially thinking of memory controllers) without generating over 100 warnings, which drives me NUTS. I don't like combing through my synthesis report to see which of 800 messages is important. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 15:53:27 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:53:27 -0500 Subject: Xeltek algorithm generator? Message-ID: Someone mentioned something about a Xeltek algorithm generator a while back. Any idea how that one works? The NMC9306 algorithm seems to be non-functional even for a tube of 9306s that seem to work fine in their target device (the aforementioned CQD-220). Looking at it in a hex editor, the algorithms appear to be PE (either executables or libraries), and IDA brings them in OK, but I'm not in the mood to reverse engineer more 8086 code to fix this stupid ROM burner. Worst case, maybe I'll build a quick and dirty 9306 communicator on my DE1. :-) I already have a perfectly functional UART peek/poke unit. - Dave From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 16 16:32:15 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:32:15 -0600 Subject: DSP56001 MandelZot (was: Re: Oldest CPU Chip) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 16:47 -0600 11/15/11, Eric wrote: >In that timeframe I was using a single Motorola DSP56001 to do >Mandelbrot set computations, and it was *much* faster than an array of >8051s. ... Originally I did this with a >386 PC, but later hooked it up to a Macintosh, and Dave Platt added >plugin support to MandelZot so I could use it without writing an entire >custom Macintosh application.... MandelZot - one of my favorite-ever applications, and Dave Platt is one of my favorite-ever software authors (just for that program). If you still talk to him, please send my regards and thanks! I saw once, but don't have, a NeXTStep application which did a side-by-side comparison of Mandelbrot set calculations on the 68030 (on the original Cube) and on the DSP56000 audio co-processor. The DSP56000 was faster. That application dropped off the NeXT radar when the newer machines came out with the 68040, since that CPU was faster than the DSP56000. Personally, I think it would be awesome to resurrect that code and get Distributed.net running on my NeXT's '040 and 56000 simultaneously, but have not managed to squeeze time into my schedule to (learn how to and then) do that. At 16:47 -0600 11/15/11, Ethan wrote: >...ISTR there's an expiry mechanism in the SETI at Home client that >if you request a work unit and don't return it in a few days or weeks, >it's discarded. ... essentially it put a de facto lower bound on the >amount of CPU you could throw at the problem ... AFAIK, Distributed.net doesn't have that feature since the only problems they (currently) work on are very massively parallel: http://www.distributed.net/ for details. Current clients for AmigaOS/68k and NeXTStep/68k (I'm running it) exist, so that may give a de facto lower boundary for the effective compute power an 1802 array would have to contribute, but I'll go out on a limb and suggest you probably can contribute with anything you can make run. Their *earliest* projected completion date for any active project is 22-Jul-2015. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ss at allegro.com Wed Nov 16 16:34:28 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:34:28 -0800 Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036D50@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <201111111906.pABJ6UKa012608@floodgap.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036D50@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Re: >> Or at least my BeBox does: the Time control panel won't let me enter >> the year 2011. I set it to 2005 since that was the calendar match. > > Technically, of course, the calendar match for 2011 is 1983. 28 year > cycle, you know. Although current_year - 28 always works, there's usually one other year more recent than that that will be a calendar match for the current year. In this case, 2005 is indeed a match for 2011. Prove for yourself: cal 2005 > foo.2005 cal 2011 > foo.2011 diff foo.2005 foo.2011 2012 has no later match than 1984, but 2013 has a match of 2002, and 2014 matches 2003. Stan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 16 16:13:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:13:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FPGA history (was Re: VHDL PDP11) In-Reply-To: <201111152119.QAA08104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 15, 11 04:19:01 pm Message-ID: > > >> Here is a series of papers about more recent efforts to generate > >> configuration bits without using the vendor tools: > > >> [...] > > > Am I theonly person to feel it's ridiculous to have reserach papers > > re-discovering information that is already known ot some people > > (those who work for the FPGA manufactuer). I feel that research > > should solve genuine problems that nobody knows the answer too, not > > artificial ones to whci hthe anser is known but 'we won't tell you'. > > If that is all the paper does, I agree. (I haven't checked any of > those papers to see whether that's true of them.) > > But if the paper develops useful and interesting techniques while > solving a nominal problem whose answer is already known somewhere else, > those techniques can be interesting and valuable in their own right. OF course. I was not implying that there can't be (or shoudln't be) useful original reserch which involves FPGA configuration. I am sure there can be new algorithms for laying them out, there is much that can be done on self-modifying hardware, and so on. My point is that _that's_ the research. Having to start by rediscovering known information that 'we won't tell you' is not research. It's a waste of intellegent people's minds. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 16 16:19:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:19:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> from "Keith Monahan" at Nov 15, 11 08:40:37 pm Message-ID: > Plus, it comes down to speed. Using gate-level verilog, I can plunk down > a couple gates, wire in a switch, wire up an LED, whatever in a matter > of seconds. Compile, push the configuration, and play with it. Probably > before your soldering iron heats up completely. (har har) And I recokon I could wire up a couple of gates, a switch, an LED (+ resistor) in less time than it takes your PC to boot up and load the development tools. OK, you'll tell me you have the PC on and running the OS all the time, to which my reply is that I have my osldering iron up to temperture all the time that I am designing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 16 16:28:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:28:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC3210A.5000802@verizon.net> from "Keith Monahan" at Nov 15, 11 09:33:46 pm Message-ID: > > On 11/15/2011 9:00 PM, ben wrote: > > > When I tried FPGA's I tended to design the hardware first. > > Simulation does not help, when the design does not fit in the FPGA > > you are using. > > True, but your compilation tools _will_ tell you that. I think you're missing the point. The problems start when part of the design will not (and isn't suppoed to) fit in any FPGA (or even any FPGA supported by the tools you're using). Perhaps you want to have a significant amount of memory. Perhaps so much that you cna't get an FGPA that will hold the logic _and the memory_. No problem in the real hardware, you conenct a memory chip to the FPGA. But a lot of FPGA_specific simulators can't handle that. It gets worse if the external memory is somplex to talk to, like many forms of DRAM. Trying to simulte a DRAM _inside an FPGA_ and have it fial i nthe right ways if the timing is wrong, just so you can simulate the DRAM controller you were designing in the first place is fraught with problems. Then there's the time you wnat to link your PFGA circuit to some external devies. Suppose you're designing a disk controller for a PDP11, anf you want it to use DMA and interrupys. I hardlly think you should try ot desing a UUnibus or Qbvus arbitor in the simulator just so you can test your deisng. And yet many, many, simulators can't handle tie idea of 'If you get this signal form my circuit, then assert this one 100ns later, then wait for my cirucit to assert this...). Or if you have an external device that accepts and produces a bitstream of some kind. Simulating that is always 'fun'. Somebody already mentioned genrating video signals in an FGPA. I don';t know about you, but I can't look at the waveforms going into the DACs (which is waht a ismulator is most likely to show) and see what the image will look like. Of course anythign weith ADCs or DACs is goign to be a problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 16 16:30:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:30:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BeOS R5 believes the end of the world happens in 2011 In-Reply-To: <1321416202.15103.YahooMailClassic@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Nov 15, 11 08:03:22 pm Message-ID: > > THE BLOOMINN BEEB IS WHATEVER IS SAY IT IS > Are yuo Humpty Dumpty? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 16 16:43:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:43:49 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: , <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4EC3CC25.8801.1551E0C@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2011 at 16:47, David Riley wrote: > My biggest pet peeve about FPGA design tools is the warnings they put > out. You generally can't tell it "hey, this module is parameterized > and generic so in this instance I'm not using this output", so > anything you make properly generically will end up burying the real, > important warnings in a sea of noise. You can't even use vendor IP > (I'm especially thinking of memory controllers) without generating > over 100 warnings, which drives me NUTS. I don't like combing through > my synthesis report to see which of 800 messages is important. ...or even the same number/type of warnings between various vendors' tools. I tend to take warning messages very seriously, particularly during the implementation phase. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. -------------OT----------------------------- Just heard the news bulletin from the Beeb world service in the background--IBM apparently has a ("Kights Corner") coprocessor chip that runs at a teraflop: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15758057 Cheers, Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 16 17:31:10 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:31:10 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC447BE.5040904@verizon.net> On 11/16/2011 4:47 PM, David Riley wrote: > You can't even use vendor IP > (I'm especially thinking of memory controllers) without generating > over 100 warnings, which drives me NUTS. I don't like combing > through my synthesis report to see which of 800 messages is > important. > > - Dave > > Dave, You wouldn't happen to be talking about Xilinx's memory controller, would you? I get a ton of warnings. And it's surprising when they design both the controller and synthesizer. Altera's IDE has a way of suppressing "similar" warnings, or suppressing warnings that contain text. It's not ideal, obviously, better not to have the warnings --- but at least you can hide the false warnings so that the real ones are more visible. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 16 17:57:29 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:57:29 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC44DE9.4000409@verizon.net> On 11/16/2011 5:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Perhaps you want to have a significant amount of memory. Perhaps so much > that you cna't[sic] get an FGPA[sic] that will hold the logic _and the memory_. No > problem in the real hardware, you conenct[sic] a memory chip to the FPGA. But > a lot of FPGA_specific simulators can't handle that. Which simulators are you referring to? Like Xilinx's iSim? As long as you have a model of the memory, you should be able to simulate it. > It gets worse if the external memory is somplex[sic] to talk to, like many > forms of DRAM. Trying to simulte[sic] a DRAM _inside an FPGA_ and have it fial[sic] > i nthe[sic] right ways if the timing is wrong, just so you can simulate the > DRAM controller you were designing in the first place is fraught with > problems. I've simulated models for both SDRAM and DDR2 without problems. The memory vendors often provide verified memory models of their chips. > Then there's the time you wnat[sic] to link your PFGA circuit to some external > devies[sic]. Suppose you're designing a disk controller for a PDP11, anf[sic] you > want it to use DMA and interrupys[sic]. I hardlly[sic] think you should try ot[sic] > desing[sic] a UUnibus[sic?] or Qbvus[sic] arbitor[sic] in the simulator just so you can test > your deisng[sic]. And yet many, many, simulators can't handle tie[sic] idea of 'If > you get this signal form my circuit, then assert this one 100ns later, > then wait for my cirucit[sic] to assert this...). > > Or if you have an external device that accepts and produces a bitstream > of some kind. Simulating that is always 'fun'. This is where capturing the signals with a logic analyzer and replaying them through simulation works great. I have a cheap $150 logic analyzer that runs admittedly at 24mhz, but can do millions/billions of samples. One example is when I sampled an entire floppy track (5 million 24mhz samples), and then ran that through simulation. I also just did 12-bit digital video replayed through simulation. Simulation isn't a be-all end-all perfect solution, but it is one tool in your toolbox. Keith From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 16 20:16:23 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:16:23 -0500 Subject: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/11/11 3:30 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Expecting these tools to somehow work magic and be 100% bug free is >> an unrealistic expectation and most people who expect this are >> drastically underestimating the complexity of tools involved. > > I don't expect any software to be bug-free. > > However, when they not only don't document enough for users to inspect > and/or construct config bitblobs on their own but threaten "trouble" > for those who try to deduce that information, their tools - quite aside > from the problems inherent in running them at all - must be considered > part of their product, with similar perfection requirements; bugs in > those tools are just as crippling as bugs in the hardware, under those > circumstances. Well said. And those of us who use expensive, proprietary software can easily feel victimised by it. (In my case, in a previous career, Adobe.) The "support" which is supposedly the privilege of paying through the nose and enduring lock-in - frequently just isn't really there. When was the last time a Windows user followed a bug through Microsoft's support system? Mostly they get endured and worked around. That's just things get done, in Proprietary Land... unless, I suppose, you are Fortune 100 and can use a red telephone. --T > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 16 20:44:34 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:44:34 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC47512.3030205@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Someone who wants to substitute, say, a CPLD for a bunch of unclocked > TTL is going to have to come up with a clock--and then determine how > that will affect function. I've had no problem with putting asynchronous logic into CPLDs, where CPLD is defined as having a bunch of sum-of-products macrocells. (Some vendors have, for marketing reasons, called some LUT-based devices CPLDs.) Of course, if the asynchronous logic has dependencies on the specific propagation delays of the original logic family used, that won't likely work in a CPLD, but then, it won't likely work reliably when the vendor of the logic family does a process shrink or any other change. Designs that depend on the prop delays should generally be avoided, as they are prone to terrible problems. I've done a limited amount of asynchronous logic in Spartan-3 FPGAs. Xilinx says don't do it, and the static timing analysis tool throws up its hands, but with a little effort it seems possible to do it. However, I wouldn't want the job of implementing a large async circuit in an FPGA. Life's too short. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 16 20:55:14 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:55:14 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > [...] almost all FPGA implementations must have a clock of some sort. Mouse wrote: > Oh! That's a very important thing I hadn't known before. I'd been > assuming an FPGA was, well, a big chipful of gates which you wired up > however you wanted, and which then behaved like, well, the bunch of > gates you've wired them up as; whether any of the signals those gates > processed could be considered a clock would be irrelevant. Chuck's statement is a generalization, and of course all generalizations are false. It is possible to implement entirely asynchronous logic in an FPGA. I've done modest amounts of it. Xilinx says not to do it, primarily because their tools are really designed for it. The simulator and the static timing analyzer aren't good at dealing with asynchronous logic. The basic logic element in a Xilinx FPGA (and Altera are similar) has a LUT and a D flip-flop. The LUT is essentially a static RAM with four inputs (six in newer parts). The static RAM is specially designed to be glitchless when changing between two addresses that contain the same data, which allows it to behave as a normal logic gate when suitably programmed. The output of the LUT can either be used directly as the output of the logic element, or it can go into the D flip-flop. There are dedicated low-skew clock nets that feed the clock inputs of the D flip-flops. It is possible to feed the clock inputs from other signals, but not recommended. You can build your own S-R flip-flops out of gates implemented by LUTs. They work fine. If you absolutely *had* to take an existing asynchronous logic design and put it into an FPGA, and were willing to spend enough time on it, it can be made to work. In most cases, though, it is easier to redesign a system to operate synchronously, and then the FPGA tools are a lot more useful. Note that everything in the FPGA doesn't have to operate on the same clock. You can have multiple clock domains. However, then you have to be very careful with signals that cross clock domains. (That's true whether you use FPGAs or not.) It's generally best to minimize the number of independent clock domains as much as possible. Often there are things that at first glance would appear to need their own clock domain, but upon more careful study can be merged into another existing clock domain. Eric From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 16 21:24:33 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:24:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201111170324.WAA06035@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The "support" which is supposedly the privilege of paying through the > nose and enduring lock-in - frequently just isn't really there. I know. I went through my larval phase under VMS, back in the '80s, when DEC was still DEC. I - well, formally, the lab I hung out at - must have generated at least a half-dozen SPRs (then-DEC's name for bug reports). The only one I ever saw any response at all to was the one that was a total brainfart of my own. > That's just things get done, in Proprietary Land... unless, I > suppose, you are Fortune 100 and can use a red telephone. Even that doesn't always help. I once worked on a robotics project that involved JPL and some Sun hardware. JPL bought the right to internal support from Sun, as in, we could call and talk to one of their internal techs. We tried it. More than once (I don't recall exactly how often). Every time, we already knew more about the thing we were asking about than the tech we spoke with did. And this was the special spend-oodles-of-money level of support. I am very thoroughly cynical about proprietary vendor "support". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 16 21:28:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:28:44 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC47512.3030205@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC47512.3030205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2011 at 18:44, Eric Smith wrote: >> I've done a limited amount of asynchronous logic in Spartan-3 FPGAs. > Xilinx says don't do it, and the static timing analysis tool throws up > its hands, but with a little effort it seems possible to do it. > However, I wouldn't want the job of implementing a large async circuit > in an FPGA. Life's too short. Do you think you'd have any trouble working up an implementation of this 19-year old design in FPGA? http://brendaluderman.info/cv/papers/An_Asynchronous_Multiplier.pdf Nothing big, say 32x32 bit. I'm just trying to figure out how far this FPGA thing can be pushed. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 21:52:22 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:52:22 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC484F6.60903@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> This and Tony's comment about using discrete logic rather than FPGA >>> points up an interesting, but important, limitation of FPGAs (and >>> CPLDs): they're clocked designs. >> >> Chuck: This really isn't true at all. While you are right that most >> designs are synchronous, there's no limitation or requirement for them >> to be so. You can do combinatorial logic all day without a clock. >> >> module AOI (input A, B, C, D, output F); >> assign F = ~((A& B) | (C& D)); >> endmodule > > The few times I've tried to instantiate (right word? HDL-to- > implementation) a purely async design, the EDA tools pitch about > there being no clock signal. > > Maybe I'm not RTFM, but I don't think so. What happens if you try to, say, define a clock signal, assign the pins to it, cable it up to a crystal, and then never connect it to any logic? I mean, yeah, you'd be out a couple of pins, but does it work? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 16 22:23:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:23:41 -0500 Subject: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111170324.WAA06035@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111170324.WAA06035@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EC48C4D.4060208@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2011 10:24 PM, Mouse wrote: > I once worked on a robotics project that involved JPL and some Sun > hardware. JPL bought the right to internal support from Sun, as in, > we could call and talk to one of their internal techs. > > We tried it. More than once (I don't recall exactly how often). Every > time, we already knew more about the thing we were asking about than > the tech we spoke with did. > > And this was the special spend-oodles-of-money level of support. > > I am very thoroughly cynical about proprietary vendor "support". I'm right there with you on that. Vendor support is nearly always a joke. It will never be half as good as an experienced engineer with access to the source code. Sun is particularly bad about this...I can't count the number of things I've taught Sun employees about Sun computers and OSs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 16 22:26:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:26:06 -0500 Subject: Xeltek algorithm generator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC48CDE.7050807@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2011 04:53 PM, David Riley wrote: > Someone mentioned something about a Xeltek algorithm generator a > while back. Any idea how that one works? The NMC9306 algorithm > seems to be non-functional even for a tube of 9306s that seem to work > fine in their target device (the aforementioned CQD-220). Looking at > it in a hex editor, the algorithms appear to be PE (either > executables or libraries), and IDA brings them in OK, but I'm not in > the mood to reverse engineer more 8086 code to fix this stupid ROM > burner. > > Worst case, maybe I'll build a quick and dirty 9306 communicator on > my DE1. :-) I already have a perfectly functional UART peek/poke > unit. That's what I'd do. Incidentally, it just occurred to me...Did you purchase that CQD-220 via eBay about two years ago? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 16 22:31:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:31:26 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC447BE.5040904@verizon.net> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC447BE.5040904@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EC48E1E.2040302@neurotica.com> On 11/16/2011 06:31 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > You wouldn't happen to be talking about Xilinx's memory controller, > would you? I get a ton of warnings. And it's surprising when they design > both the controller and synthesizer. Those types of things, code in app notes and whatnot, are often thrown to interns and "summer slaves" as busy work. Some of the worst (and worst architecturally-"fitting") code I've ever seen has been in app notes from the manufacturers of the chip in question. So, often, the only link between the people who designed the controller and the people who designed the synthesizer is the name on the top of their paycheck. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 16 22:50:17 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:50:17 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC48E1E.2040302@neurotica.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC447BE.5040904@verizon.net> <4EC48E1E.2040302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC49289.1080200@verizon.net> On 11/16/2011 11:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/16/2011 06:31 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> You wouldn't happen to be talking about Xilinx's memory controller, >> would you? I get a ton of warnings. And it's surprising when they design >> both the controller and synthesizer. > > Those types of things, code in app notes and whatnot, are often thrown > to interns and "summer slaves" as busy work. Some of the worst (and > worst architecturally-"fitting") code I've ever seen has been in app > notes from the manufacturers of the chip in question. So, often, the > only link between the people who designed the controller and the people > who designed the synthesizer is the name on the top of their paycheck. > > -Dave > In this particular case, Xilinx gives you a memory generator as part of their CoreGen. You plug in a bunch of variables for the size of the memory, width, depth, frequency, pipeline, burst, blah, blah and it spits out a supposedly working memory controller. They go so far as to say that every permutation has been verified to ensure correctness. The result is something like 7300 lines of verilog (or vhdl, your choice) across a bunch of directories and files. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 16 23:03:17 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:03:17 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC47512.3030205@brouhaha.com> <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> On 11/16/2011 10:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Nov 2011 at 18:44, Eric Smith wrote: > >>> I've done a limited amount of asynchronous logic in Spartan-3 > FPGAs. >> Xilinx says don't do it, and the static timing analysis tool throws up >> its hands, but with a little effort it seems possible to do it. >> However, I wouldn't want the job of implementing a large async circuit >> in an FPGA. Life's too short. > > Do you think you'd have any trouble working up an implementation of > this 19-year old design in FPGA? > > http://brendaluderman.info/cv/papers/An_Asynchronous_Multiplier.pdf > > Nothing big, say 32x32 bit. > > I'm just trying to figure out how far this FPGA thing can be pushed. > > --Chuck > Chuck, While I'm not sure about the async multiplier you link to on that paper, for what it's worth, there is an async 32x32-bit multiplier here http://pastebin.com/NqtpNuDz My $150-ish eval board with the Xilinx Spartan-3e contains (20) dedicated 18 bit signed x 18 bit signed multipliers, this design uses four of them. My math skills are pretty weak, but they basically split the 32-bit operands (a,b in this case) into 16-bit chunks, append binary 00 to them to have 18-bit chunks, feed them into the multipliers, and then smash the results together. Most of the code is just dealing with the fact that the inputs to the multipliers have to be 18 bits chunks..... The inputs are a,b,sign, with p as an output. The on-die multipliers are doing all the work. Not a clock in sight. :) Hope this helps. Keith From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 16 23:04:20 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:04:20 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC47512.3030205@brouhaha.com> <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC495D4.6000802@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I've done a limited amount of asynchronous logic in Spartan-3 > FPGAs. Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do you think you'd have any trouble working up an implementation of > this 19-year old design in FPGA? > http://brendaluderman.info/cv/papers/An_Asynchronous_Multiplier.pdf As an assignment for a class I took at San Jose State a few years back, I had to write a Verilog description of a 4x4 array multiplier, synthesize it for an XC3S200, and test it on a Spartan 3 starter kit. Extending it to 32-bit would be trivial. The only reason it was 4x4 instead of some larger size is that the board had eight slide switches for input. It wasn't self-timed, though. In other words, I didn't have the "Control Block" with REQ, ACK, and Carry Completion signals described in the paper. I don't think it would be too difficult to implement that. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 16 23:05:54 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:05:54 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC484F6.60903@gmail.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC40FAE.9010808@verizon.net> <4EC3B0C4.28658.EA2A69@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC484F6.60903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC49632.8010106@brouhaha.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > What happens if you try to, say, define a clock signal, > assign the pins to it, cable it up to a crystal, and then > never connect it to any logic? I mean, yeah, you'd be > out a couple of pins, but does it work? Works fine. The tools will warn you that you have an unused signal. It won't solve any complaints that tools may produce regarding not having a clock. However, I've never seen such a complaint from the Xilinx tools. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 16 23:43:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:43:15 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> References: , <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2011 at 0:03, Keith Monahan wrote: > While I'm not sure about the async multiplier you link to on that > paper, for what it's worth, there is an async 32x32-bit multiplier > here > > http://pastebin.com/NqtpNuDz I think not quite what I had in mind. The self-timed design that essentially outputs a "done" signal when the product is finally formed. The verilog for this appears to reflect a fixed-time multiplier--at least there's no "done" output. Years ago, asynchronous computing was a hot topic--essentially, instructions were unclocked and took however long it required to signals to propogate through the logic to complete. That was the gist of Achronix' idea--that you could get some freakingly fast computation out of a clockless design. I also recall that the Philco System 2000 was one of the few commercial versions utilizing that idea. "Asynchronous" was part of their advertising campaign--and, for a very short time, they had one of the fastest transistorized machines. --Chuck P.S. I won't even broach the subject of reversible computation... :) From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 16 23:51:43 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:51:43 -0800 Subject: Vendor Support: WAS -Re: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC48C4D.4060208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/16/11 8:23 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 11/16/2011 10:24 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I once worked on a robotics project that involved JPL and some Sun >> hardware. JPL bought the right to internal support from Sun, as in, >> we could call and talk to one of their internal techs. >> >> We tried it. More than once (I don't recall exactly how often). Every >> time, we already knew more about the thing we were asking about than >> the tech we spoke with did. >> >> And this was the special spend-oodles-of-money level of support. >> >> I am very thoroughly cynical about proprietary vendor "support". > > I'm right there with you on that. Vendor support is nearly always a > joke. It will never be half as good as an experienced engineer with > access to the source code. Sun is particularly bad about this...I can't > count the number of things I've taught Sun employees about Sun computers > and OSs. > > -Dave One of the companies that I have used their software for testing generally has horrible support, many times I would open a support ticket and would get either A: Completely irrelevant information that had nothing to do with the problem I was asking about or B: Completely incorrect or incomplete information AND C: a request for information that I provided in the initial ticket I opened :( the company support years ago was great, then they decided to outsource most of their support, so the quality went into the toilet. Then a few years later they were bought out by a large multinational corporation and said company axed 90% of the existing staff and were generous enough to allow them to apply for positions as contract staff if they wanted to be slapped in the face again and get paid 50% to 75% of what they were getting paid before. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 17 00:01:20 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:01:20 -0700 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC4A330.2060005@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/16/2011 10:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > --Chuck > > P.S. I won't even broach the subject of reversible computation... :) > Turn your 586's back into 8008's? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 17 00:12:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 01:12:05 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC4A330.2060005@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC4A330.2060005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4EC4A5B5.8080307@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2011 01:01 AM, ben wrote: >> P.S. I won't even broach the subject of reversible computation... :) > > Turn your 586's back into 8008's? That seemed to have been the job of Windows Vista; fortunately it was short-lived so many of our machines survived! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 17 00:14:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 01:14:40 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC4A650.4090408@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2011 12:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Years ago, asynchronous computing was a hot topic--essentially, > instructions were unclocked and took however long it required to > signals to propogate through the logic to complete. > > That was the gist of Achronix' idea--that you could get some > freakingly fast computation out of a clockless design. I've been doing a lot of research on some of Chuck Moore's new direct-execution Forth cores, like the F18A. They loudly claim to be asynchronous and clockless. Some very impressive designs are being churned out of his think tank. I have some samples on the way and am absolutely frothing at the mouth to slap some on a board. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 17 00:47:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:47:33 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC4A5B5.8080307@neurotica.com> References: , <4EC4A330.2060005@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4EC4A5B5.8080307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC43D85.25179.30FFCCE@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2011 at 1:12, Dave McGuire wrote: > That seemed to have been the job of Windows Vista; fortunately it > was short-lived so many of our machines survived! ;) I think I was looking at a Dell ad the other day for its business desktop PCs. They seemed to think it was wirth bragging about that their offerings would have a life cycle of 20 months. When I started in this business, it took almost that long to get a system after placing the order for it. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 17 06:43:11 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 07:43:11 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC43D85.25179.30FFCCE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC4A330.2060005@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4EC4A5B5.8080307@neurotica.com> <4EC43D85.25179.30FFCCE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC5015F.9060907@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/11 1:47 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Nov 2011 at 1:12, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> That seemed to have been the job of Windows Vista; fortunately it >> was short-lived so many of our machines survived! ;) > > I think I was looking at a Dell ad the other day for its business > desktop PCs. They seemed to think it was wirth bragging about that > their offerings would have a life cycle of 20 months. Everything is backwards. :( But it does expose their profit engine: Making you throw working things away as soon as possible. --Toby > > When I started in this business, it took almost that long to get a > system after placing the order for it. > > --Chuck > > From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 17 07:05:15 2011 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:05:15 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <137B40D0-766E-4088-9F08-30F53C6FF046@heeltoe.com> On Nov 16, 2011, at 1:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Someone who wants to substitute, say, a CPLD for a bunch of unclocked > TTL is going to have to come up with a clock--and then determine how > that will affect function. I'm not sure why you are saying this. You don't need a clock to implement combinatorial logic in a CPLD, or a FPGA. There's nothing stopping you from taking two inputs, anding them together and putting the output on another pin. The clock give the software a reference for timing analysis. But it's not required. -brad From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 07:39:21 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:39:21 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC47512.3030205@brouhaha.com> <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <155BF7B5-4922-4068-BEE1-981798D1131C@gmail.com> On Nov 16, 2011, at 10:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Nov 2011 at 18:44, Eric Smith wrote: > >>> I've done a limited amount of asynchronous logic in Spartan-3 > FPGAs. >> Xilinx says don't do it, and the static timing analysis tool throws up >> its hands, but with a little effort it seems possible to do it. >> However, I wouldn't want the job of implementing a large async circuit >> in an FPGA. Life's too short. > > Do you think you'd have any trouble working up an implementation of > this 19-year old design in FPGA? > > http://brendaluderman.info/cv/papers/An_Asynchronous_Multiplier.pdf > > Nothing big, say 32x32 bit. > > I'm just trying to figure out how far this FPGA thing can be pushed. You could do that. I've only skimmed the paper, so I can't say for sure if it does, but if it requires specific timing relationships between any of the asynchronous parts (e.g. X arrives later than Y), you might find it a little hard without setting lots of timing constraints on individual nets. The main reason for that is that while each LUT and flip-flop will have a basically identical propagation delay, the implementation tool will decide where they go on the die. Obviously, different routing lengths make a pretty big difference (even more so in silicon than on a board; sometimes on the order of several ns). I might give it a shot and see what comes out when I've got some spare time. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 07:43:10 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:43:10 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7723E1A8-9543-4089-B1ED-46347E51DB3F@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2011, at 12:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Years ago, asynchronous computing was a hot topic--essentially, > instructions were unclocked and took however long it required to > signals to propogate through the logic to complete. > > That was the gist of Achronix' idea--that you could get some > freakingly fast computation out of a clockless design. > > I also recall that the Philco System 2000 was one of the few > commercial versions utilizing that idea. "Asynchronous" was part of > their advertising campaign--and, for a very short time, they had one > of the fastest transistorized machines. Chuck Moore's newest Forth chips (which is painting them with a broad brush, they're stack machines, but they're really meant for Forth) at http://www.greenarrays.com run asynchronously. Those are actually some pretty neat chips. I don't know if they're going anywhere, but his previous Forth chips have had some success in the market, and I'd love to play around with one. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 17 07:45:42 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:45:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC43D85.25179.30FFCCE@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Nov 16, 11 10:47:33 pm" Message-ID: <201111171345.pAHDjgLI011410@floodgap.com> > > That seemed to have been the job of Windows Vista; fortunately it > > was short-lived so many of our machines survived! ;) > > I think I was looking at a Dell ad the other day for its business > desktop PCs. They seemed to think it was wirth bragging about that > their offerings would have a life cycle of 20 months. I'm still using (in a practical, daily driver sense) a computer that is almost 6 years old (quad G5). My laptop (iBook G4) and backup workstation (Luxo G4) are even older. I'm not having much luck adapting to this "post PC" age. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Spotted on a coffee mug: "Say NO to drugs" -- Chuck Reiman, r.h.f ---------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 07:47:36 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:47:36 -0500 Subject: Xeltek algorithm generator? In-Reply-To: <4EC48CDE.7050807@neurotica.com> References: <4EC48CDE.7050807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/16/2011 04:53 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Worst case, maybe I'll build a quick and dirty 9306 communicator on >> my DE1. :-) I already have a perfectly functional UART peek/poke >> unit. > > That's what I'd do. > > Incidentally, it just occurred to me...Did you purchase that CQD-220 via eBay about two years ago? Sounds about right. Maybe three. Was it yours? :-) - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 17 08:05:07 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:05:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111171345.pAHDjgLI011410@floodgap.com> References: <201111171345.pAHDjgLI011410@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201111171405.JAA16627@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm still using (in a practical, daily driver sense) a computer that > is almost 6 years old (quad G5). My laptop (iBook G4) and backup > workstation (Luxo G4) are even older. I regularly use a SPARCstation 20. And I'm sure, especially here, that I'm far from the most extreme in that direction. > I'm not having much luck adapting to this "post PC" age. So who's adapting? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 17 09:24:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 07:24:41 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <137B40D0-766E-4088-9F08-30F53C6FF046@heeltoe.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <137B40D0-766E-4088-9F08-30F53C6FF046@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4EC4B6B9.18020.12E0B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2011 at 8:05, Brad Parker wrote: > I'm not sure why you are saying this. You don't need a clock to > implement combinatorial logic in a CPLD, or a FPGA. > > There's nothing stopping you from taking two inputs, anding them > together and putting the output on another pin. > > The clock give the software a reference for timing analysis. But it's > not required. Thanks for that information--I'll have to go back and revisit some of my old code and see exactly what it was that was the stumbling block. One that I recall was a peripheral interface that did little other than propagate and switch signals. The error messages that I was getting made me relent and add synchronizers for a fully-clocked design. It worked, but I always wondered why that was necessary, seeing that I could do the same thing without a clock and a board of TTL. Thanks, Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:41:32 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:41:32 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC4B6B9.18020.12E0B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <137B40D0-766E-4088-9F08-30F53C6FF046@heeltoe.com> <4EC4B6B9.18020.12E0B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <963E54B2-0CCB-474C-A2B3-90147FE78EA1@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Thanks for that information--I'll have to go back and revisit some of > my old code and see exactly what it was that was the stumbling block. > One that I recall was a peripheral interface that did little other > than propagate and switch signals. The error messages that I was > getting made me relent and add synchronizers for a fully-clocked > design. It worked, but I always wondered why that was necessary, > seeing that I could do the same thing without a clock and a board of > TTL. Given the number of warnings the synthesizer probably threw up when it saw a large design without a clock it could infer ("NO CLOCK FOUND - WORLD PROBABLY ENDING"), I probably would have thought the same thing too. I think part of the problem is the industry's infatuation with fMax as a benchmark of tool quality; without a clock, there is no fMax, so the timing analyzer is a bit lost as to what to do. "So, uh, you got any setup time constraints for me? No? I guess... I guess I'll just find some propagation delays for you, then? Fine, but I'm not going to like it." Interestingly, though, you *can* do designs without a "clock" that use read/write strobes as they're intended to be used; the read/write strobes, for all intents and purposes, act as the clocks (typically, you'd use active-low #RD/#WR as the active clocks to the flipflops and use #CS as the clock enable). A lot of older chips worked that way (or at least similarly) internally anyway. The tool will give you some nonsense number for fMax (I mean, if you really wanted to do read or write strobes as a periodic clock, I guess you could), but it'll also give you setup/hold times and minimum pulse widths for high and low as well, which is much more useful in that scenario. - Dave From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Nov 17 10:30:35 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:30:35 -0600 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, I have a 128 MB Smart Media card from my camera which I inadvertently formatted, erasing a whole pile of really good photos from Yellowstone Park, in mid-June 2009. It recently re-surfaced in my pile of things to do. 1) Is there any hope at all that the original images are recoverable? 2) Any recommendations on where to go to get that done? OT-ness is that it applies to a (now) 10-year-old camera, which is a pretty tenuous thread. However, I think I dimly recall a discussion on this topic here recently, so if anyone can help me, please do! Private email is fine, if the topic is not deemed of general interest. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 10:39:46 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:39:46 -0500 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2011, at 11:30 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > All, > I have a 128 MB Smart Media card from my camera which I > inadvertently formatted, erasing a whole pile of really good photos > from Yellowstone Park, in mid-June 2009. It recently re-surfaced in > my pile of things to do. > > 1) Is there any hope at all that the original images are recoverable? > > 2) Any recommendations on where to go to get that done? > > OT-ness is that it applies to a (now) 10-year-old camera, > which is a pretty tenuous thread. However, I think I dimly recall a > discussion on this topic here recently, so if anyone can help me, > please do! Private email is fine, if the topic is not deemed of > general interest. I guess it's possible... does SmartMedia format as FAT[12|16|32]? A lot of DOS "unerase" programs might do the trick if the camera just blows away the header blocks of the filesystem; often times the directories are left more or less intact. Probably a good idea to make a backup image of the card before you do any experiments, though. If you have access to a UNIX-y machine that can access the card, dd should do the job. I don't know what to use on Windows. - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 10:47:46 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:47:46 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> On 11/16/11 6:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Note that everything in the FPGA doesn't have to operate on the same clock. You can have multiple clock domains. Is there anything higher-level/better for describing an cross-domain signal beyond specifying that it go through a dual-rank synchronizer? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 10:52:27 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:52:27 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC53BCB.4060805@bitsavers.org> On 11/16/11 9:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I also recall that the Philco System 2000 was one of the few > commercial versions utilizing that idea. "Asynchronous" was part of > their advertising campaign--and, for a very short time, they had one > of the fastest transistorized machines. > I have been told that the 2000 was also unreliable because of this. I've never looked at the detailed design, though. Until the release of the CDC 6600, the follow-on Philco 212 was one of the fastest machines in the world. It would be interesting to find detailed hw docs on the 212. CHM has a CPU, but no detailed drawings of it. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Nov 17 10:58:33 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:58:33 -0800 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:40 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? > > On Nov 17, 2011, at 11:30 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > All, > > I have a 128 MB Smart Media card from my camera which I > > inadvertently formatted, erasing a whole pile of really good photos > > from Yellowstone Park, in mid-June 2009. It recently re-surfaced in > > my pile of things to do. > > > > 1) Is there any hope at all that the original images are recoverable? > > > > 2) Any recommendations on where to go to get that done? > > [snip] > > I guess it's possible... does SmartMedia format as FAT[12|16|32]? A lot of > DOS "unerase" programs might do the trick if the camera just blows away the > header blocks of the filesystem; often times the directories are left more or > less intact. [> ] The format should be determined by the camera, rather than as an attribute of the media. If it is FAT (and I've yet to see a digital camera that doesn't use FAT): I had a similar experience with a CompactFlash card and I was able to recover the images with DOS Chkdsk. > > Probably a good idea to make a backup image of the card before you do any > experiments, though. If you have access to a UNIX-y machine that can > access the card, dd should do the job. I don't know what to use on Windows. > I very much agree that making an image backup before you do anything like that is a very good idea. If you don't have a *nix system I'd suggest installing Cygwin and using dd in that environment. -- Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 11:15:46 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:15:46 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2302F0F5-5343-45C7-A37F-CAA120FC7E31@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/16/11 6:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Note that everything in the FPGA doesn't have to operate on the same clock. You can have multiple clock domains. > > Is there anything higher-level/better for describing an cross-domain signal beyond specifying that it go through a > dual-rank synchronizer? Well, dual-clock FIFOs work, too. But they're just regular FIFOs built on a dual-port RAM with a bunch of synchronizers. The whole reason to put cross-domain signals is to avoid metastability problems. Similar problems plague discrete logic as well; I recall that there's a "bug" (really just a lack of external synchronization) in the shifter of most 6522s that makes them unreliable if you don't synchronize the input to the receiving clock domain first. If you just drop a flip-flop in front of it in the 6522's clock domain, the problem is solved (as long as that doesn't add a troublesome amount of latency). I seem to recall this caused a number of problems for a certain C64 disk drive... But yeah, dual (or better) rank flip-flops are your simplest answer. Each rank you add reduces the probability of a metastable event propagating through; two (especially with fast logic like we have on FPGAs) is usually enough for most purposes without sending latency through the roof. Here's a great exchange on metastability, with some fantastic pictures (also linked below, but read the first link for context on what you're actually seeing). http://www.fpga-faq.com/FAQ_Pages/0017_Tell_me_about_metastables.htm http://www.fpga-faq.com/Images/meta_pic_1.jpg http://www.fpga-faq.com/Images/meta_pic_2.jpg http://www.fpga-faq.com/Images/meta_pic_3.jpg I've been bitten by it several times, largely from totally asynchronous inputs. I had a 16550 I wrote once where the "CTS delta" interrupt failed to fire about one time out of a thousand; I had forgotten to synchronize the modem control lines (because who cares about their state except over the long term, right?) and the first flip flop in the edge detector would stumble over the metastability; on the next clock, the second flip-flop would flip on the (now-settled) value and they would both be the same, thus no edge was detected. Plus, when you have multiple paths going through your device with different propagation delays (FPGA or PCB), different flip-flops can catch different values on the same clock edge because they catch the data at different points in time (often one after it has flipped, and one before it). You'd think that would be caught by proper tSU/tCO calculations, but what the metastable effect does is to effectively multiply the tCO by a non-insignificant number. So, short answer: double-register all your inputs (unless you KNOW they're synchronous) to your boards, devices and clock domains. Otherwise you'll end up with a handful of mysterious inconsistencies that "shouldn't be able to happen". - Dave From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Nov 17 11:37:31 2011 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:37:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:47:46 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: on FPGA simulation > > On 11/16/11 6:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Note that everything in the FPGA doesn't have to operate on the same clock. >> You can have multiple clock domains. > > Is there anything higher-level/better for describing an cross-domain signal > beyond specifying that it go through a > dual-rank synchronizer? > Well not for signals as such but a Flancter is good for cross domain status flags Peter Wallace From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 11:44:52 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:44:52 +0000 Subject: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111170324.WAA06035@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111170324.WAA06035@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 17 November 2011 03:24, Mouse wrote: >> The "support" which is supposedly the privilege of paying through the >> nose and enduring lock-in - frequently just isn't really there. > > I know. > > I went through my larval phase under VMS, back in the '80s, when DEC > was still DEC. > > I - well, formally, the lab I hung out at - must have generated at > least a half-dozen SPRs (then-DEC's name for bug reports). ?The only > one I ever saw any response at all to was the one that was a total > brainfart of my own. I suppose it depends on your level of expertise. When I ran a DEC-based server network in the early 1990s, with fairly minimal knowledge of VMS except as a user, I found DEC support /excellent/ on a number of occasions. At that time, the fact that the call made its own way through callcentres around the world when I pulled an all-nighter was very impressive: whoever I spoke to, from India to Australia, knew the whole history and could hand-hold me through the next step. Best IT support I've ever had, in fact. Compare that to the bad joke that is vendor support in the PC industry, where the only thing they can really do right, if you've paid enough, is come round, swap out the affected device and replace it with a new one. This is why virtualisation and so on is getting so big, indirectly. There are few really clueful people in industry IT any more. The answers to most problems are: * If it's hardware, power-cycle it. If that doesn't work, replace it. * If it's software, wipe it & reinstall. So being able to migrate system images to heterogenous hardware, and just restore new blank system images with a click, are /massively/ useful tools. >> That's just things get done, in Proprietary Land... unless, I >> suppose, you are Fortune 100 and can use a red telephone. > > Even that doesn't always help. > > I once worked on a robotics project that involved JPL and some Sun > hardware. ?JPL bought the right to internal support from Sun, as in, > we could call and talk to one of their internal techs. > > We tried it. ?More than once (I don't recall exactly how often). ?Every > time, we already knew more about the thing we were asking about than > the tech we spoke with did. > > And this was the special spend-oodles-of-money level of support. > > I am very thoroughly cynical about proprietary vendor "support". Overall, oh hell yes. Which is why it's annoying that one of the business arguments /against/ FOSS is that either there is no support or that it's really expensive. Free community support is generally more use than the professional paid-for stuff from the vendors, IMHO. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 11:46:47 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:46:47 +0000 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 November 2011 16:58, Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley >> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:40 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? >> >> On Nov 17, 2011, at 11:30 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: >> >> > All, >> > ? ? I have a 128 MB Smart Media card from my camera which I >> > inadvertently formatted, erasing a whole pile of really good photos >> > from Yellowstone Park, in mid-June 2009. It recently re-surfaced in >> > my pile of things to do. >> > >> > 1) Is there any hope at all that the original images are recoverable? >> > >> > 2) Any recommendations on where to go to get that done? >> > > [snip] >> >> I guess it's possible... does SmartMedia format as FAT[12|16|32]? ?A lot of >> DOS "unerase" programs might do the trick if the camera just blows away the >> header blocks of the filesystem; often times the directories are left more or >> less intact. > [> ] > The format should be determined by the camera, rather than as an attribute of the media. ?If it is FAT (and I've yet to see a digital camera that doesn't use FAT): I had a similar experience with a CompactFlash card and I was able to recover the images with DOS Chkdsk. >> >> Probably a good idea to make a backup image of the card before you do any >> experiments, though. ?If you have access to a UNIX-y machine that can >> access the card, dd should do the job. ?I don't know what to use on Windows. >> > > I very much agree that making an image backup before you do anything like that is a very good idea. ?If you don't have a *nix system I'd suggest installing Cygwin and using dd in that environment. ?-- Ian Concur, except that an Ubuntu LiveCD (or similar) would be much quicker & easier than installing Cygwin. But agree as to the technique. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From fast79ta at yahoo.com Thu Nov 17 12:07:33 2011 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe Piche) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:07:33 -0700 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC54D65.2080105@yahoo.com> A great program I've used to recover files off of a flash card, is digital image recovery. A little freeware program, that scans the card beyond the FAT level, and recovers anything that matches the format of an image. Bit tough to find, as the program isn't supported anymore.. But I did find it here.. http://housing19.berlin3.powerweb.de/fotoforum/index.php/topic,2690.0.html Cheers On 17/11/2011 9:30 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > All, > I have a 128 MB Smart Media card from my camera which I > inadvertently formatted, erasing a whole pile of really good photos > from Yellowstone Park, in mid-June 2009. It recently re-surfaced in my > pile of things to do. > > 1) Is there any hope at all that the original images are recoverable? > > 2) Any recommendations on where to go to get that done? > > OT-ness is that it applies to a (now) 10-year-old camera, which is > a pretty tenuous thread. However, I think I dimly recall a discussion > on this topic here recently, so if anyone can help me, please do! > Private email is fine, if the topic is not deemed of general interest. > From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 12:08:48 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:08:48 -0500 Subject: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111170324.WAA06035@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <462FBCBD-02D4-40FA-B62F-C29B927DD5B6@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Which is why it's annoying that one of the business arguments > /against/ FOSS is that either there is no support or that it's really > expensive. > > Free community support is generally more use than the professional > paid-for stuff from the vendors, IMHO. I agree wholeheartedly, with one caveat; you have to be willing to do at least some of the work. The reason paid support is so popular in large companies and the government is because both employ large numbers of people with no clue or motivation, so in order to get *anything* fixed, you have to be able to just phone someone up and say, "I power-cycled it and it's still not working, so please send me a new one no questions asked and maybe you could reimage it for us too". The converse, of course, is misc at openbsd.org, which is the worst (or best, depending on your point of view) place for clueless questions that amount to "do my work for me". Things like "give me a step by step guide on how to make my random USB touchpad work" get a swift and thorough lashing, and maybe deservedly so. But if you're willing to at least try and figure out what your problem is, and work towards finding a solution, FOSS communities are FAR more helpful than most scripted commercial support. Fun story: support isn't that much better for hardware manufacturers. We built an AMC card using (among other things) a Freescale MPC8378 (PowerPC microcontroller) on board that, at least for the first batch, had a few bizarre problems running at the promised 800 MHz. I traced it down to the fact that at some point, after heavy activity on the memory controller at full speed, one or more of the byte lanes would be shifted by one double-width (128-bit) word. It was a DDR2 controller, so obviously one of the byte-synchronization FIFOs was getting thrown off by one tick, presumably due to a poorly-constrained signal; we looked at the DDR2 signals coming in with a fast scope and they looked beautiful, so we were pretty confident that wasn't it. After being shunted around Freescale's Taiwan offices with no one saying anything other than "well, you're probably not terminating it right, go re-spin your board", they just stopped responding to us. Shortly thereafter, supplies of the 800MHz speed grade dried up for a few months; after shipments resumed, the problem was fixed, so I guess we found a process/QA control problem for them? Th lack of communication was just infuriating, though. - Dave From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 17 12:15:58 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:15:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321553758.45152.YahooMailClassic@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/17/11, Mark Tapley wrote: > ??? I have a 128 MB Smart Media card from my > camera which I inadvertently formatted, erasing a whole pile > of really good photos from Yellowstone Park, in mid-June > 2009. It recently re-surfaced in my pile of things to do. > > 1) Is there any hope at all that the original images are > recoverable? Assuming that you just reformatted the card and haven't used it again, then yes, you should be able to recover everything. > 2) Any recommendations on where to go to get that done? This is going to assume a *nix based system - I have no idea how you'd do this from Windows, as I don't use it... First, dd the card to a file. Work only from the image file, not the camera card: dd if=/dev/[cardreader] of=[imagefile] photorec is a wonderful piece of software that can automatically scan and recover image files that have been deleted. photorec [imagefile] If you've got other stuff on there that's not a photo (or an MP3, I think photorec also parses those), then you'll have to use the tools from sleuthkit: fls -f fat -r [imagefile] will list out the files it can find, and give you the inode numbers of the files. It'll probably be a long list, so pipe it through less or something. You can then use icat to extract the file, by inode number, from the list: icat -f fat [imagefile] [inode#] > filename.foo Not that I've ever accidentally deleted files from a camera card. No. Never. -Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 12:20:02 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:20:02 -0600 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC55052.1040409@gmail.com> David Riley wrote: > I guess it's possible... does SmartMedia format as FAT[12|16|32]? A lot > of DOS "unerase" programs might do the trick if the camera just blows > away the header blocks of the filesystem; often times the directories > are left more or less intact. On my Canon the firmware always seems to store files as contiguous blocks - when I accidentally erased its card once, I wrote a quick bit of code that would scan blocks for JPEG headers and copy the data to separate files on disk. So long as the OP's camera doesn't fragment files, I expect a similar recovery would be possible even if some form of "undelete" tool won't work. (I don't know if I still have the code I wrote, but I can hunt for it if needed) cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 12:17:51 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:17:51 -0500 Subject: Anyone with Cipher F880 experience? Message-ID: <898FD74A-8616-4D63-8392-1797B9370796@gmail.com> I have a DEC TS05 (re-badged F880 without high-density mode; otherwise same PCB and everything) which is poorly behaved. Before I go diving in with the maintenance manual, is there anyone on here with experience repairing F880s? Symptoms: - It occasionally just resets (especially once it gets warmer). I'm willing to bet this is a flaky regulator somewhere, but I don't have a digital scope to see the transients very well. - When loading (and occasionally during operation, if it ever gets that far), it bugs out with either a compliance arm or tachometer error. Both of the superficial diagnostics for the compliance arm and the tachometer indicate no problems, so I'm assuming it's a problem somewhere in the logic. It only successfully loads maybe one time out of 20, even when I load it pre-threaded (1 out of 3 when it's cold, but it doesn't stay that way for long), which makes the first problem all the more irritating. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 12:56:43 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:56:43 -0500 Subject: Xeltek algorithm generator? In-Reply-To: <4EC48CDE.7050807@neurotica.com> References: <4EC48CDE.7050807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0DF21C48-6E15-460A-BAF9-933AE1513F09@gmail.com> On Nov 16, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Incidentally, it just occurred to me...Did you purchase that CQD-220 via eBay about two years ago? Haha, looking through my email archives, it looks like it was. :-) Thanks much for that; it's serving me well now that I've un-buggered it (it was working fine when I got it, of course). For those wondering: It looks like you can direct the config program to write a value to the EEPROM that will crash the 8086 when it loads the drive descriptors (tell it 0 disks and 0 tapes, and it'll die when it tries to load the config because it uses a "do {} while(--count)" sort of thing without bounds-checking). I've already fatally programmed one of my new EEPROMs to do that by accident; good thing I socketed it! - Dave From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Nov 17 13:48:58 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:48:58 -0500 Subject: Processor_Technology 8KRA revC Message-ID: <1796030d$12c54160$3e8322e0$@com> I noticed that there is no copy of the Processor_Technology 8KRA assembly and test instructions manual online (includes jumpers, schematic, test code), so I made a scan and posted a copy. Feel free to download/mirror elsewhere. Note my copy is Rev C. http://vintagecomputer.net/processor_tech/Processor_Technology_8KRA_revC.pdf Bill Degnan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 17 13:58:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:58:05 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC43D85.25179.30FFCCE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC4A330.2060005@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4EC4A5B5.8080307@neurotica.com> <4EC43D85.25179.30FFCCE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC5674D.1060108@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2011 01:47 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think I was looking at a Dell ad the other day for its business > desktop PCs. They seemed to think it was wirth bragging about that > their offerings would have a life cycle of 20 months. > > When I started in this business, it took almost that long to get a > system after placing the order for it. Yeah. :-( Fortunately though, many companies "refresh" their systems on a much less salesdroid-friendly schedule. Some have even begun to realize that it's a farce. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From john_finigan at yahoo.com Thu Nov 17 13:59:53 2011 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:59:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? Message-ID: <1321559993.98394.YahooMailNeo@web160803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > I have a 128 MB Smart Media card from my camera which I >inadvertently formatted, erasing a whole pile of really good photos >from Yellowstone Park, in mid-June 2009. It recently re-surfaced in >my pile of things to do. > >1) Is there any hope at all that the original images are recoverable? > >2) Any recommendations on where to go to get that done? Yes, I think you stand a good chance of getting something back.? Assuming you're on a unix-like system:? First take an image of the card with dd or something similar.? Then compile this program:? http://www.digitalforensicssolutions.com/Scalpel/ If your photos are jpegs, edit the config file to enable jpeg and then run it against the disk image.? If they're some less common format, you might have to open a sample file in a hex editor and see if it has a recognizable header, and add that header to the config file. The program does a string search through the image and pulls out anything which starts with a particular header.? Obviously this makes it useless for recovering files that don't start with a recognizable sequence of bytes, and also for fragmented files. Please feel free to email me off list if you need a hand. I think the chkdsk-like tools others have suggested could work too, but what's neat about this method is that it is filesystem agnostic (although susceptible to fragmentation). John Finigan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 17 14:06:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:06:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted : SAA5070 datasheet Message-ID: Does anyone have any information on the Philips / Mullard (/ Signetics?) SAA5070 ('Lucy') chip)? It's a 40 pin DIL package that contains much of the elctronics of a 1200/75 baud modem and I believe some other I/O ports. The usual data sheet sites don't seem to have it, my old databook has the other ICs in the familiy (like the SAA5050 character generator), but not this one. I am pretty sure I saw a data sheet on it years ago, so I think the data was published A full data sheet would be ideal, but even just a pinout would be a great help. Thanks in advnace for any help -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 17 14:15:31 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:15:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111171405.JAA16627@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201111171345.pAHDjgLI011410@floodgap.com> <201111171405.JAA16627@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20111117120352.D11123@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm not having much luck adapting to this "post PC" age. > So who's adapting? The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 17 14:18:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:18:41 -0500 Subject: Xeltek algorithm generator? In-Reply-To: References: <4EC48CDE.7050807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC56C21.3030906@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2011 08:47 AM, David Riley wrote: >> Incidentally, it just occurred to me...Did you purchase that CQD-220 via eBay about two years ago? > > Sounds about right. Maybe three. Was it yours? :-) Yup! :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 17 15:09:37 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:09:37 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4EC57811.3040006@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Note that everything in the FPGA doesn't have to operate on > the same clock. You can have multiple clock domains. However, > then you have to be very careful with signals that cross clock domains. Al Kossow wrote: > Is there anything higher-level/better for describing an > cross-domain signal beyond specifying that it go through a > dual-rank synchronizer? I don't know about "better", but a key observation is that if you are transferring an n-bit data word between two clock domains, and use full handshaking (request/acknowledge) between the domains, and guarantee that the data from the source clock domain meets the setup time of the destination clock domain, then you only need the dual-rank synchronizers for the handshake signals and not the data. The synchronization in that case can be further simplified, i.e., you could use Rob Weinstein's "flancter" circuit: http://www.floobydust.com/flancter/Flancter_App_Note.pdf In many cases people use FIFOs for passing data between clock domains. It is *very* tricky to design your own asynchronous FIFO correctly, so it is often a good idea to use a FIFO macro supplied by your FPGA/CPLD vendor or EDA tools vendor. In fact, it is so tricky that even the vendors don't always get it right; Xilinx had some pretty serious errata for the hard FIFO logic they provided with their blockrams in some FPGA families. What I've done when I don't need pipelining is to build a one-word FIFO by using a single register and a flancter. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 17 14:56:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:56:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Nov 16, 11 09:16:23 pm Message-ID: > Well said. And those of us who use expensive, proprietary software can > easily feel victimised by it. (In my case, in a previous career, Adobe.) > > The "support" which is supposedly the privilege of paying through the > nose and enduring lock-in - frequently just isn't really there. When was > the last time a Windows user followed a bug through Microsoft's support > system? Mostly they get endured and worked around. > > That's just things get done, in Proprietary Land... unless, I suppose, > you are Fortune 100 and can use a red telephone. THis matches my experiences too. I have never received useful techncial support from any computer company on either hardware or software. I've sent e-mail to the support address of several large software companies and never got a reply. I've sent letters to large computer comanies and had them ignored. Conversely, I've sent e-mail to the authors of open-source stuff -- who I fully realais are udner no obligation to help me at all -- and received useful infroamtion the next day. The reason I prefer open-couce software is not ideological, it's practical. If I have the source code even I (not a good programmer) can make an attempt to get it working properly. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 17 15:15:36 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:15:36 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <2302F0F5-5343-45C7-A37F-CAA120FC7E31@gmail.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> <2302F0F5-5343-45C7-A37F-CAA120FC7E31@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC57978.4010303@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > Plus, when you have multiple paths going through your > device with different propagation delays (FPGA or PCB), > different flip-flops can catch different values on the same > clock edge because they catch the data at different points > in time (often one after it has flipped, and one before it). This can sometimes be observed with off-the-shelf chips. For instance, suppose you have a 6502 system with an input port that simply gates unsynchronized input data to the bus using a tristate buffer. If you do an LDA from that port, and the port data changes violating the input setup time, you can get a situation where the loaded accumulator value has the MSB set, but the N flag is not set, or vice versa. Eric From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Nov 17 15:12:49 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:12:49 -0600 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0600 11/17/11, David R. wrote: >I guess it's possible... does SmartMedia format as FAT[12|16|32]? Questions that prompted some more research. Disk Utility (see below) thinks MS-DOS File System (FAT16). >Probably a good idea to make a backup image of the card before you >do any experiments, though. If you have access to a UNIX-y machine >that can access the card, dd should do the job. I don't know what >to use on Windows. (Thanks also to Liam and Ian, both also suggesting the same thing.) My normal process was to read the card using a SmartMedia to PCMCIA adapter on a PowerBook G4. Stage 1 of the disaster happened when I got impatient as OS X.4's driver was re-writing the directory, and manually ejected the PCMCIA adapter. At that point, the SmartMedia became un-mountable either on the camera or on the Mac/adapter. Stage 2 happened when I asked the camera to use its little hammer-icon process on the card, hoping that would allow me to edit - no such luck. It reformatted. I did make a .dmg clone of the SmartMedia after re-formatting it, using a freeware called "Exif Untrasher". There are some odd things about that (like, parts of very very old images still left on the card, and images that I'm surprised were ever on that card). Also, the 128MB card was mostly full, but the Exif-U .dmg is only 62.5 MB. I'm thinking maybe I copied the wrong card? Just now, I repeated that process and came up with a 125 MB file (more what I expected). I also made a copy using DiskUtility, also 125 MB. What's the correct incantation for a dd command under OS X.4 Tiger? The naive dd if=/Volumes/Untitled/ of=clone128M.bin conv=noerror gets only 8k bytes. On the resulting files, Exif Untrasher finds nothing. That makes some sense, as examining the files (both the Exif-U generated and the Disk Utility generated) shows mostly 00's, with the occasional block of FF, and a few random things at the start like "DOS FAT 16" and "this resource fork intentionally left blank" (probably written when I put the card into my OS9 Powerbook 3400's PC slot). I think the camera's format was a real "format" format, ie rewrote all the flash memory to 0. I'm hoping for something that will read residual charge left in the flash even after a format/reset ... and hoping the bill for that isn't something that only a three-letter agency would be interested in. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Nov 17 15:29:07 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 16:29:07 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4EC57CA3.1020900@verizon.net> On 11/17/2011 11:47 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/16/11 6:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Note that everything in the FPGA doesn't have to operate on the same >> clock. You can have multiple clock domains. > > Is there anything higher-level/better for describing an cross-domain > signal beyond specifying that it go through a > dual-rank synchronizer? > Read Crossing the Abyss: asynchronous signals in a synchronous world. http://www.edn.com/file/17561-310388.pdf?force=true It talks about dual flip-flops vs handshaking vs fifos. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 17 15:49:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:49:46 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC57CA3.1020900@verizon.net> References: , <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org>, <4EC57CA3.1020900@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4EC510FA.7718.1736F18@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2011 at 16:29, Keith Monahan wrote: > Read Crossing the Abyss: asynchronous signals in a synchronous world. > > http://www.edn.com/file/17561-310388.pdf?force=true > > It talks about dual flip-flops vs handshaking vs fifos. Written by some character named "Mike Stein". That wouldn't happen to be our own Mike Stein, would it? I remember reading the article--it comes from a time when EDN (and Electronic Design) still had good design columns. But both rags were a lot thicker then--now I think the advertising circular from the local dollar store has more pages... --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 15:52:51 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:52:51 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC57811.3040006@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> <4EC57811.3040006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4EC58233.6090200@bitsavers.org> On 11/17/11 1:09 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > What I've done when I don't need pipelining is to build a one-word FIFO by using a single register and a flancter. > Did you notice that you still need a dual-rank ff after the xor? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 17 15:57:27 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:57:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321567047.37762.YahooMailClassic@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/17/11, Mark Tapley wrote: > ??? What's the correct incantation for a dd > command under OS X.4 Tiger? The naive > > dd if=/Volumes/Untitled/ of=clone128M.bin conv=noerror > > ??? gets only 8k bytes. You need to specify the device itself, not the mountpoint. Type mount to get a list of all the devices that are currently mounted, and see which one corresponds to the /Volumes/Untitled mountpoint. Unmount it from the command line, then use dd to copy it to a file. -Ian From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 17 16:29:09 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:29:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111172229.RAA25220@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > What's the correct incantation for a dd command under OS X.4 Tiger? > The naive > dd if=/Volumes/Untitled/ of=clone128M.bin conv=noerror > gets only 8k bytes. You probably want conv=noerror,sync - check the manpage - but that's not the problem. I'm not that familiar with Tiger, but I feel reasonably sure you're using the mount point rather than the mount-from device node. Check mount(8) and see what it prints; if there's a line listing /Volumes/Untitled and it has a path under /dev/ on it, that /dev/ path is probably what you want. (If not, this is a way in which Tiger is non-Unixy and I'd have to ask someone who really knows Tiger.) > I'm hoping for something that will read residual charge left in the > flash even after a format/reset ... This is the flash analog of opening up a traditional drive in a cleanroom and using an atomic force microscope to image the magnetization domains. I'd be surprised if it could be done at all without taking the top off the chip and using something like an AFM on the memory cells, and possibly not even then. > and hoping the bill for that isn't something that only a three-letter > agency would be interested in. I've never even heard of it being done, but I'd be astonished if it were cheap. But, until you get a good dd image of the unit, I'm not going to go pessimistic about recovering it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 17 16:55:26 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:55:26 -0800 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC58233.6090200@bitsavers.org> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> <4EC57811.3040006@brouhaha.com> <4EC58233.6090200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4EC590DE.2010304@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Did you notice that you still need a dual-rank ff after the xor? Yes, that's quite important, and although the application note mentions it, it doesn't show it in most of the diagrams. The author really should have called more attention to it. My VHDL version has two outputs, which are the output of the XOR synchronized to each of the clock domains. I did something that many people consider to be a no-no. I did the dual-rank synchronization with the first FF clocked by the inverted clock, to reduce the latency. The reason people say that's a no-no is that it doesn't do as good a job at reducing the probability of metastability. However, the probability of metastability with a clock of frequency f with opposite-phase FFs is exactly the same as the probability with conventional same-phase FFs at a frequency of 2f (provided that the FF characteristics are otherwise identical), so if you do analysis for 2f and get acceptable results, you can use frequency f with opposite phases. Eric From hachti at hachti.de Thu Nov 17 18:04:50 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 01:04:50 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> >> From a _hobbyist_ perspective, I am not sure you're missing much. I've > designed with FPGas as part of a job, and didn't enjoy it much. It is > very different from designing logic cirucitry the old-fashioned way for a > start. Who wrote that?!? Did not enjoy it? I rarely wanted to do anything else after having discovered FPGAs....! > > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to grab > a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. Can be fun - as long as it's just a handful of logic. With FPGAs you can do magic! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 17 18:55:49 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:55:49 -0500 Subject: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <462FBCBD-02D4-40FA-B62F-C29B927DD5B6@gmail.com> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111170324.WAA06035@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <462FBCBD-02D4-40FA-B62F-C29B927DD5B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC5AD15.7080304@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/11 1:08 PM, David Riley wrote: > ... > Fun story: support isn't that much better for hardware > manufacturers. We built an AMC card using (among other things) a Freescale MPC8378 (PowerPC microcontroller) on board that, at least for the first batch, had a few bizarre problems running at the promised 800 MHz. ... > After being shunted around Freescale's Taiwan offices with no one saying anything other than "well, you're probably not terminating it right, go re-spin your board", they just stopped responding to us. Shortly thereafter, supplies of the 800MHz speed grade dried up for a few months; after shipments resumed, the problem was fixed, so I guess we found a process/QA control problem for them? Th lack of communication was just infuriating, though. > Could the litigation culture be part of why corporations are unable to be transparent about, or acknowledge, defects? --Toby > - Dave > > > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 17 19:21:29 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:21:29 -0500 Subject: Who needs the PC upgrade treadmill - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111171405.JAA16627@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201111171345.pAHDjgLI011410@floodgap.com> <201111171405.JAA16627@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EC5B319.4000400@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/11/11 9:05 AM, Mouse wrote: >> I'm still using (in a practical, daily driver sense) a computer that >> is almost 6 years old (quad G5). My laptop (iBook G4) and backup >> workstation (Luxo G4) are even older. > > I regularly use a SPARCstation 20. And I'm sure, especially here, that > I'm far from the most extreme in that direction. > >> I'm not having much luck adapting to this "post PC" age. > > So who's adapting? More to the point, why adapt? Older machines usually do the job. In this household, apart from the vintage machines, our daily use computers are 2007 Macbook (wife's), 2004 dual G5, 2005 PowerBook. Sometimes a 2004 PC (P4 HT 3.2) which is fast enough to run modern games, 720p video, etc. and was my daily Linux development machine when I worked from home. For a few weeks, the PowerBook was my main development machine at work recently; it was quite enough. No upgrades are planned or needed. My PowerPC Macs are really much faster than I need. --T > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:26:24 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:26:24 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC590DE.2010304@brouhaha.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> <4EC57811.3040006@brouhaha.com> <4EC58233.6090200@bitsavers.org> <4EC590DE.2010304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <93A181D8-5C2E-4D16-9307-8DD154470376@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2011, at 5:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > The reason people say that's a no-no is that it doesn't do as good a job at reducing the probability of metastability. However, the probability of metastability with a clock of frequency f with opposite-phase FFs is exactly the same as the probability with conventional same-phase FFs at a frequency of 2f (provided that the FF characteristics are otherwise identical), so if you do analysis for 2f and get acceptable results, you can use frequency f with opposite phases. Yes, but that's precisely what most people miss (which is why they tell you not to do it; they're guarding against stupid). As long as you actually know what the implications are and accept them, it's fine (as with so many things that are "no-nos" in engineering). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:31:05 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:31:05 -0500 Subject: Proprietary black box software - Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC5AD15.7080304@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC46E77.1030602@telegraphics.com.au> <201111170324.WAA06035@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <462FBCBD-02D4-40FA-B62F-C29B927DD5B6@gmail.com> <4EC5AD15.7080304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <93BE50DF-669B-4531-8053-308E8467228A@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2011, at 7:55 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Could the litigation culture be part of why corporations are unable to be transparent about, or acknowledge, defects? Possibly. This device went into telecom racks, which are generally highly redundant, so the problem would have been more of an annoyance (or really just a yield problem, since not all boards exhibited the bug) than anything else if we hadn't caught it before sending it out into the world. However, if it had been medical equipment or the like, it could have been a huge disaster. That's why most datasheets from most manufacturers have a bit in the back that says "This stuff isn't qualified for medical or other life-critical machinery, don't even think about using it in that without talking to us first". Our customer was disorganized enough not to even consider asking for some compensation from Freescale; in fact, they blamed us for the months it took to track down the bug, and I think to some extent they're still convinced that it's a design flaw on our part. The people who jump to that sort of conclusions are not the sort that can analyze the data I presented, unfortunately. - Dave From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:32:56 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 02:32:56 +0100 Subject: VAX "mainframe" available? Message-ID: http://thedailyreview.com/news/gop-candidates-for-county-office-speak-in-towanda-1.1223943 -- Stephane FreeDonne Join FreeDonne - Rejoignez FreeDonne. From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 17 20:00:42 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:00:42 -0500 Subject: VAX "mainframe" available? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC5BC4A.2020602@snarc.net> > http://thedailyreview.com/news/gop-candidates-for-county-office-speak-in-towanda-1.1223943 Hey, that's in Pennsylvania. I will contact them -- maybe they'll donate the VAX to our museum here in NJ, seeing as we cover all the surrounding states. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 17 20:08:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:08:56 -0500 Subject: VAX "mainframe" available? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC5BE38.9000809@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2011 08:32 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > http://thedailyreview.com/news/gop-candidates-for-county-office-speak-in-towanda-1.1223943 I wrote to them about this a couple of weeks ago. Doesn't look like it's becoming available just yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 17 21:25:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:25:42 -0800 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> References: , <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2011 at 1:04, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to > > grab a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. > > Can be fun - as long as it's just a handful of logic. With FPGAs you > can do magic! I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP version with EIS. I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 17 21:33:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:33:50 -0500 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if > anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done > anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP > version with EIS. > > I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything around them. I would love for that to not be the case! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 23:09:11 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 00:09:11 -0500 Subject: VAX "mainframe" available? In-Reply-To: <4EC5BE38.9000809@neurotica.com> References: <4EC5BE38.9000809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20835D0A-7C57-4974-804F-3B45C61E1805@gmail.com> On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/17/2011 08:32 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> http://thedailyreview.com/news/gop-candidates-for-county-office-speak-in-towanda-1.1223943 > > I wrote to them about this a couple of weeks ago. Doesn't look like it's becoming available just yet. Well, as long as it's not going to the scrapper. What kind of VAX are we talking about? "Mainframe" could mean a 9000 (not bloody likely, but I guess it's kind of a mainframe) or it could mean the reporter did a cursory search on Wikipedia without knowing what either a VAX or a mainframe are. - Dave From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 00:02:37 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:02:37 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I bought one of this CPU Clones too a while ago. Never found good documentation apart of a 2 sheet datasheet. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/11/18 Dave McGuire > On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >> version with EIS. >> >> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. >> > > Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them > having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that > there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything > around them. > > I would love for that to not be the case! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > From mike at fenz.net Fri Nov 18 00:29:10 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:29:10 +1300 Subject: Rare UNIVAC 1960's gold silver modular pcbs + HDD? In-Reply-To: References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC5FB36.4040204@fenz.net> Hmm. Of any use to anyone? The seller seems reluctant to name a price. Rare UNIVAC 1960's gold silver modular pcbs + HDD! http://www.trademe.co.nz/computers/vintage/auction-424967301.htm Auction's nothing to do with me, just noticed it tonight. From wmachacek at q.com Thu Nov 17 01:18:28 2011 From: wmachacek at q.com (Bill Machacek (Qwest)) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 00:18:28 -0700 Subject: Intel MDS units Message-ID: I just picked up a couple of Intel MDS units last week and now I'm not quite sure what to do with them. I have an MDS-225 with an MDS-230 keyboard. The unit is dated 7/80. I also have an MDS-120 with an MDS-120 keyboard. This unit also includes an ICE 86A BB Intellec module which is attached. I have no documentation to go with these items and as far as I can tell, they were taken out of operation many years ago and just stored. I have no way of verifying if they are working or not. Is there a market for these units? They are pretty heavy. I can strip them myself if need be, but if there is someone who can put these to good use, I'd rather see them go there. Any ideas, thoughts will be appreciated. Bill Machacek Colo. Springs, CO From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Nov 17 03:38:53 2011 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:38:53 +0100 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EC4D62D.2030801@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 16.11.2011 19:15, schrieb Chuck Guzis: > On 15 Nov 2011 at 20:40, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> FWIW, I love simulation with FPGAs. It usually reveals my beginner >> mistakes, and is a pretty powerful tool to help test your design. >> While I haven't done enough to demonstrate it, there are differences >> between simulation and real hardware. > This and Tony's comment about using discrete logic rather than FPGA > points up an interesting, but important, limitation of FPGAs (and > CPLDs): they're clocked designs. > > While Tony can use his 7400-series logic to implement an asynchronous > design, almost all FPGA implementations must have a clock of some > sort. > > Not every design employing logic is a CPU and not all employ clocked > logic. > > Someone who wants to substitute, say, a CPLD for a bunch of unclocked > TTL is going to have to come up with a clock--and then determine how > that will affect function. > > Achronix is the only vendor that I can recall offhand even discussing > aysnchronous FPGAs--and it's not even clear to me if they're still > offering them. Simulation must be a nightmare. > > --Chuck > When I was working for my PhD on testing of digital systems 20 years ago, we had such a discussion already, namely: asynchronous vs. synchronous design, or more academic: Moore vs. Mealy finite state machines. The answer to that was: do synchronous, registered designs - always - ever! Why? The system clock decides on the maximum frequency the design can run. Logic paths can be designed and verified to have these maximum propagation delays; they are also loop-free (a loop always involves at least a flipflop or register), which makes them much better testable. Asynchronous effects, such as glitches, are much easier to avoid, because a local instability will not propagate over the next register in path (this implies latches at outputs as well). Needless to say, simulation is much more simple, and the toolchain to validate and optimize the design, can produce much better results than for circuits that rely on dirt effects. FPGAs are constructed for exactly the synchronous paradigm - no surprise they, and their associated tool chain, are barely usable for asynchronous circuitry. VHDL can, of course, simulate asynchronous designs, much better than Verilog (which was originally invented for synchronous ASIC design) - the difficulty then is to map such a trick circuit to real hardware. I think the problem here is the viewpoint of the "old farts" who know the hardware hacks in old computers by heart and believe that an asynchronous TTL board is an example for good design. This point of view is similar to the old debate on "to GOTO or not to GOTO" - while it is ubiquitous in assembler, FORTRAN and BASIC, there are very good reasons to avoid it wherever possible - there do exist a few applications, where GOTO as well as asynchronism is opportune, but it should be used then as salt in your meal, not as an excuse for producing crappy designs. The main reason why former digital designs were full of asynchronous circuitry was mainly a question of transistor, or gate, or chip, count - it was better and cheaper to add some RC delay line to solve some timing problem than to add another chip to the whole board. Without high-performance simulation on computers, one was forced to measure the effect with logic analyzers or scopes; it is understandable that Real Engineers(tm) were more fond of playing with real circuitry than reading sheets of simulation output after some hours of batch simulation. Nowadays, a 500 gate FPGA does not very much differ from a 100000 gate FPGA, in terms of circuit size, so it returns to be mainly a cost factor whether to put a simple 4bit counter into a 500 gate FPGA or a 100K one - the development process is exactly the same. In any way, no reason to hack it to emulate it to behave artificially asynchronous. The modern circuits are not there to replace a TTL graveyard one-by-one. -- Holger From jjacocks at mac.com Thu Nov 17 10:19:03 2011 From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:19:03 -0500 Subject: Looking for Memory Modules for DECstation 5000/2xx Message-ID: Does anyone here have DECstation 5000 memory that they would be willing to part with? I'd prefer 32mb modules, of course, but I'll take 8mb modules. The best price that I can find, through resellers, is ~?55 + shipping _per module_ for the 32mb modules. I'd hope to do better than that. For shipping purposes, I'm located in Queenstown, MD, USA, zip 21658. Thanks! - Alex From pinball at telus.net Thu Nov 17 10:26:39 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:26:39 -0800 Subject: Xeltek algorithm generator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC535BF.7060404@telus.net> David Riley wrote: > Someone mentioned something about a Xeltek algorithm generator a while back. Any idea how that one works? The NMC9306 algorithm seems to be non-functional even for a tube of 9306s that seem to work fine in their target device (the aforementioned CQD-220). Looking at it in a hex editor, the algorithms appear to be PE (either executables or libraries), and IDA brings them in OK, but I'm not in the mood to reverse engineer more 8086 code to fix this stupid ROM burner. > > Worst case, maybe I'll build a quick and dirty 9306 communicator on my DE1. :-) I already have a perfectly functional UART peek/poke unit. > > - Dave > > That would be I - I have the original algorithm generator software (Rv1.0) that I bought from Xeltek back in 1990 (1992?). This was for the UniPro, but did work with the SuperPro (hard wired to PC) - however it is looking for the I/O port that the old PC card used - would have to bypass that somehow... However you could edit some parts of the algorithym in later versions (SuperPro II) in the Edit menu, but I haven't looked at that in many years, not needing that function, so no idea if it still exists for the later burners. John :-#)# From phil at ultimate.com Thu Nov 17 11:45:28 2011 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:45:28 -0500 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC53BCB.4060805@bitsavers.org> References: <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC53BCB.4060805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201111171745.pAHHjSSr035468@ultimate.com> Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/16/11 9:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I also recall that the Philco System 2000 was one of the few > > commercial versions utilizing that idea. "Asynchronous" was part of > > their advertising campaign--and, for a very short time, they had one > > of the fastest transistorized machines. > > > > I have been told that the 2000 was also unreliable because of this. The DEC PDP-6 and the KA10 (the original PDP-10 CPU) were async; http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/emulators > From: "Carl R. Friend" > .... > The PDP-6 (the -10's progenitor) and the KA-10 were asynchronous > machines, the KI-10 was a synchronous time-state machine, and the > KL- and KS-10 were microcode implementations (pretty much by definition > synchronous). The PDP-6 was a cranky beast, with large boards that were prone to failure. Scanned schematics of the PDP-6 are at http://web.archive.org/web/20041209120010/http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/tk/pdp6/pdp6.html From mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 23:36:03 2011 From: mountainlogic-systems at comcast.net (mls) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:36:03 -0600 Subject: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? In-Reply-To: <1321478742.90658.YahooMailNeo@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1321478742.90658.YahooMailNeo@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2011, at 3:25 PM, Dave wrote: > A while back, when I was restoring my HP 9825B, I found a great site with lots of beautiful pictures of HP classic computers in various states of disassembly. I believe it was called "Computer Asylum" at www.bohemiae.com. Now the site seems to have disappeared. Did it get relocated, or hidden intentionally by the "warden" of the asylum, or is the site just gone? It would be a shame if so. Did anybody happen to archive some of those images and pages? > > Thanks for any info, > > Dave I found remnants of the website (last crawled on July 8th) at http://www.archive.org/web/web.php - not sure what happened to it, though, there also did not seem to be any reference to computer asylum in the pages that are archived there. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 18 02:07:32 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 00:07:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> References: , <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >> version with EIS. >> >> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. > > Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them having > been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that there wasn't > enough documentation available to actually build anything around them. > > I would love for that to not be the case! I think it was earlier than that. I rememeber maybe six months ago thinking out loud about S100 boards using those chips. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 18 02:26:58 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 00:26:58 -0800 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> References: , <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC616D2.2010909@jwsss.com> I have a friend with another interest in Russia that looked into them. There is more than the two sheet flyer, but this VHDL project looks way more doable, now. The links are below from my friend Pavel. I think most of the computers that were turned up were of the game type, or were such that they required fluent russian to make much use of them. This VHDL implementation would be closer to what I'd want to have to mess with. That was one reason for asking what to do next. Jim Hello, Jim. 1). About chips. I am not sure that this information is searched by you. But it could be useful probably. Book about K1801 series: http://www.155la3.ru/datafiles/k1801vm1_vm2_mpss.djvu Page about this sereas: http://www.155la3.ru/k1801 Another link about 1801VM http://www.emuverse.ru/wiki/1801BMx (many links in bottom of the page) Schemes of soviet PDP computers: http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/BK/docs/bk0010-schematics.djvu http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/BK/docs/bk0011m-schematics.djvu http://www.adr-1.narod.ru/Plurimat/e60.djvu http://www.adr-1.narod.ru/Plurimat/e60-2.djvu http://www.emuverse.ru/wiki/??? (in last page - many links in bottom of the page) List of copy names of Russian and original chips could be found here: http://www.bitcapark.ru/mwiki/index.php?title=%D0%AD%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0-60 Is it interesting for you? On 11/17/2011 7:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >> version with EIS. >> >> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. > > Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them > having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that > there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything > around them. > > I would love for that to not be the case! > > -Dave > From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri Nov 18 03:31:09 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:31:09 +0000 Subject: DEC and PDP links "Gordon Bell's Publications" Message-ID: <201111180931.pAI9V2oq007828@ims-m14.mx.aol.com> I guess everybody already knows about this: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/Digital/DECMuseum.htm Since I haven't used or seen DEC gear since the 1970s I found many things of interest on the page, specifically "Digital at Work" in PDF. Unfortunately many of the pictures are almost illegible. Still a good read. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Wants: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris SPARC | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | | Stony Brook Modula-2 for Solaris SPARC | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 Intel and Solaris 10 SPARC | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 04:06:18 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:06:18 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC616D2.2010909@jwsss.com> References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> <4EC616D2.2010909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Thanks for Information Jim. Time to polish up my non-existing skills in russian language. But the schematics and most of the Databooks are somewhat readable to me - and interesting. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/11/18 jim s > I have a friend with another interest in Russia that looked into them. > There is more than the two sheet flyer, but this VHDL project looks way > more doable, now. > > The links are below from my friend Pavel. > > I think most of the computers that were turned up were of the game type, > or were such that they required fluent russian to make much use of them. > > This VHDL implementation would be closer to what I'd want to have to mess > with. That was one reason for asking what to do next. > Jim > > Hello, Jim. > > 1). About chips. > I am not sure that this information is searched by you. But it could > be useful probably. > > Book about K1801 series: > http://www.155la3.ru/**datafiles/k1801vm1_vm2_mpss.**djvu > > Page about this sereas: > http://www.155la3.ru/k1801 > > Another link about 1801VM > http://www.emuverse.ru/wiki/**1801BMx > (many links in bottom of the page) > > Schemes of soviet PDP computers: > http://www.emuverse.ru/**downloads/computers/BK/docs/** > bk0010-schematics.djvu > http://www.emuverse.ru/**downloads/computers/BK/docs/** > bk0011m-schematics.djvu > http://www.adr-1.narod.ru/**Plurimat/e60.djvu > http://www.adr-1.narod.ru/**Plurimat/e60-2.djvu > http://www.emuverse.ru/wiki/**??? > (in last page - many links in bottom of the page) > > List of copy names of Russian and original chips could be found here: > http://www.bitcapark.ru/mwiki/**index.php?title=%D0%AD%D0%BB%** > D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%**D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0-60 > > > Is it interesting for you? > > > > On 11/17/2011 7:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >>> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >>> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >>> version with EIS. >>> >>> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. >>> >> >> Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them having >> been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that there >> wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything around >> them. >> >> I would love for that to not be the case! >> >> -Dave >> >> From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Nov 18 06:22:58 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:22:58 +0100 Subject: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? Message-ID: <000301cca5ec$d285f100$7791d300$@xs4all.nl> > > A while back, when I was restoring my HP 9825B, I found a great site with lots > of beautiful pictures of HP classic computers in various states of disassembly. I > believe it was called "Computer Asylum" at www.bohemiae.com. Now the site > seems to have disappeared. Did it get relocated, or hidden intentionally by the > "warden" of the asylum, or is the site just gone? It would be a shame if so. Did > anybody happen to archive some of those images and pages? > > > > Thanks for any info, > > > > Dave > > I found remnants of the website (last crawled on July 8th) at > http://www.archive.org/web/web.php - not sure what happened to it, though, > there also did not seem to be any reference to computer asylum in the pages > that are archived there. It's related to the UK firm Bohemiae house owned by Jiri Picka The site can be found at : http://www.computerasylum.co.uk/ The company site which also leads to the asylum : http://www.bohemiahouse.co.uk/index.html -Rik From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 06:26:40 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:26:40 -0600 Subject: Rare UNIVAC 1960's gold silver modular pcbs + HDD? In-Reply-To: <4EC5FB36.4040204@fenz.net> References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> <4EC5FB36.4040204@fenz.net> Message-ID: haha that saite is awsome for the most random things they don't allow paypal though... On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 12:29 AM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Hmm. Of any use to anyone? The seller seems reluctant to name a price. > > Rare UNIVAC 1960's gold silver modular pcbs + HDD! > http://www.trademe.co.nz/**computers/vintage/auction-**424967301.htm > > Auction's nothing to do with me, just noticed it tonight. > > From ats at offog.org Fri Nov 18 07:28:29 2011 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:28:29 +0000 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:25:42 -0800") References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. http://www.evita.lt/ lists KR1801VM1s for 1.01?, along with assorted support chips. I'd definitely be interested in a construction project... -- Adam Sampson From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 08:58:37 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:58:37 -0800 Subject: Intel MDS units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: wmachacek at q.com > > I just picked up a couple of Intel MDS units last week and now I'm not quite sure what to do with them. I have an MDS-225 with an MDS-230 keyboard. The unit is dated 7/80. I also have an MDS-120 with an MDS-120 keyboard. This unit also includes an ICE 86A BB Intellec module which is attached. I have no documentation to go with these items and as far as I can tell, they were taken out of operation many years ago and just stored. I have no way of verifying if they are working or not. Is there a market for these units? They are pretty heavy. I can strip them myself if need be, but if there is someone who can put these to good use, I'd rather see them go there. Any ideas, thoughts will be appreciated. > > Bill Machacek > Colo. Springs, CO > Hi They fetch a couple hundred on ebay. If you don't find any takers from the group. Don't trash them. These were used as developement machines but they are fine computers of there age. They can run CP/M with the right disk as well. Dwight From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 18 09:21:41 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:21:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? In-Reply-To: <000301cca5ec$d285f100$7791d300$@xs4all.nl> References: <000301cca5ec$d285f100$7791d300$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1321629701.31191.YahooMailNeo@web38103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's related to the UK firm Bohemiae house owned by Jiri Picka >The site can be found at : http://www.computerasylum.co.uk/ >The company site which also leads to the asylum : >http://www.bohemiahouse.co.uk/index.html > >-Rik > > Thanks Rik!? The site is a nice resource to have on the net.? If any of you have an interest in the HP classic technical computers, there are some beautiful pictures of the machines in various states of disassembly on this site.? Well worth following Rik's link above. The web has lots of wonderful resources, but in some ways, it's still pretty fragile.? There's no guarantee that a useful resource today will be here tomorrow. Best regards, Dave From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Nov 18 09:49:44 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:49:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> <4EC616D2.2010909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > Thanks for Information Jim. Time to polish up my non-existing skills in > russian language. But the schematics and most of the Databooks are somewhat > readable to me - and interesting. If people on this list are trying to decypher Russian language docs and get stuck, I would be willing to help (I'm a native speaker). I don't have a lot of round tuits, so there would be some wait states involved :-/ Alexey From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Nov 18 10:45:11 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:45:11 -0600 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joe P., thanks for the pointer to digital image recovery! I'll find a Windows machine and try it if I can't work the problem with my Mac. ----- John F, DigitalForensics will also get a shot when/if I start seeing bits of files recovered. That's not looking so likely, though. ----- At 19:31 -0600 11/17/11, Ian wrote: >Not that I've ever accidentally deleted files from a camera card. No. Never. You have my sympathy and thanks! What was on my card would have been all .jpg compressed images, so Photorec looks perfect. ------ At 19:31 -0600 11/17/11, Ian and Mouse pretty much chorused: >You need to specify the device itself, not the mountpoint. Type >mount to get a list of all the devices that are currently mounted, >and see which one corresponds to the /Volumes/Untitled mountpoint. >Unmount it from the command line, then use dd to copy it to a file. Ah! mtapley-3:~ mtapley$ mount ... /dev/disk1s1 on /Volumes/Untitled (local, nodev, nosuid) mtapley-3:~ mtapley$ su root ... mtapley-3:/Users/mtapley root# umount /dev/disk1s1 mtapley-3:/Users/mtapley root# dd if=/dev/disk1s1 of=PhotosToSort/LostCard/ddClone128M.dd conv=noerror,sync 255953+0 records in 255953+0 records out 131047936 bytes transferred in 153.810460 secs (852009 bytes/sec) The naive shortcut to /Volumes just got me a symlink or something? I'm embarrassed to admit I had to hit more man pages to remember that unmount is spelled umount. Anyway the dd command chugged for several minutes.... ...at the end of which, I got another image which was composed almost entirely of "FF" pairs, according to OxED. Near the start, there is, as in the other images, "FAT16", some stuff that says "DCIM" and "Trashes", "100OLYMP", a "Mac OS X" string, a "This resource fork intentionally left blank " string, and a few other short (10's of bytes) bits of stuff in mostly 00 areas. After that, just an ocean of FF pairs. Not surprisingly, Photorec finds nothing. Likewise for Exif-U. 0 files saved in /Users/mtapley/Applications/testdisk-6.13/recup_dir directory. Recovery completed. Although I'm willing to go on and try other tools if people want, I've become a tad discouraged at this point. Am I right to be so? It looks to me like the camera re-initialized the card and wrote all FF, ready to be recorded on, and if Mouse is correct that's pretty much that. Even for the cool Yellowstone photos, I'm not willing to pay for an AFM image of the flash memory. Cheaper to round up the family and go back to Yellowstone. Any further suggestions? Expecting none, I still want to offer most heartfelt thanks to everyone for their pointers and tips. If *this* group can't help me, it's a testament to how well and truly I managed to screw myself. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Nov 18 11:03:49 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:03:49 -0800 Subject: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Just a note to add to this thread, for when someone Googles it in the future: from what I've seen, Mac OS X writes some small files to any volume that's attached. That's usually not a big deal, but in a situation where you're trying to recover from a format, it's a very big deal, as it means that blocks may be reused. I'm not sure if the Mac's automount behavior can be turned off, but on many *nix boxes mounting is an intentional choice (and I've not seen *nix gratuitously scribble on a newly mounted volume, either). That also allows you to mount it read-only. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tapley [mtapley at swri.edu] Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 8:45 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: (OT) SmartMedia un-erasing - help? Joe P., thanks for the pointer to digital image recovery! I'll find a Windows machine and try it if I can't work the problem with my Mac. ----- John F, DigitalForensics will also get a shot when/if I start seeing bits of files recovered. That's not looking so likely, though. ----- At 19:31 -0600 11/17/11, Ian wrote: >Not that I've ever accidentally deleted files from a camera card. No. Never. You have my sympathy and thanks! What was on my card would have been all .jpg compressed images, so Photorec looks perfect. ------ At 19:31 -0600 11/17/11, Ian and Mouse pretty much chorused: >You need to specify the device itself, not the mountpoint. Type >mount to get a list of all the devices that are currently mounted, >and see which one corresponds to the /Volumes/Untitled mountpoint. >Unmount it from the command line, then use dd to copy it to a file. Ah! mtapley-3:~ mtapley$ mount ... /dev/disk1s1 on /Volumes/Untitled (local, nodev, nosuid) mtapley-3:~ mtapley$ su root ... mtapley-3:/Users/mtapley root# umount /dev/disk1s1 mtapley-3:/Users/mtapley root# dd if=/dev/disk1s1 of=PhotosToSort/LostCard/ddClone128M.dd conv=noerror,sync 255953+0 records in 255953+0 records out 131047936 bytes transferred in 153.810460 secs (852009 bytes/sec) The naive shortcut to /Volumes just got me a symlink or something? I'm embarrassed to admit I had to hit more man pages to remember that unmount is spelled umount. Anyway the dd command chugged for several minutes.... ...at the end of which, I got another image which was composed almost entirely of "FF" pairs, according to OxED. Near the start, there is, as in the other images, "FAT16", some stuff that says "DCIM" and "Trashes", "100OLYMP", a "Mac OS X" string, a "This resource fork intentionally left blank " string, and a few other short (10's of bytes) bits of stuff in mostly 00 areas. After that, just an ocean of FF pairs. Not surprisingly, Photorec finds nothing. Likewise for Exif-U. 0 files saved in /Users/mtapley/Applications/testdisk-6.13/recup_dir directory. Recovery completed. Although I'm willing to go on and try other tools if people want, I've become a tad discouraged at this point. Am I right to be so? It looks to me like the camera re-initialized the card and wrote all FF, ready to be recorded on, and if Mouse is correct that's pretty much that. Even for the cool Yellowstone photos, I'm not willing to pay for an AFM image of the flash memory. Cheaper to round up the family and go back to Yellowstone. Any further suggestions? Expecting none, I still want to offer most heartfelt thanks to everyone for their pointers and tips. If *this* group can't help me, it's a testament to how well and truly I managed to screw myself. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Nov 18 04:33:09 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:33:09 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 References: , <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7E2850BEF78C4D67A500A69E003F12A7@Pc12> hello those microprocessors are used in some domestic computers in russia),BK0010,BK0011,uknc and dvk (that is the names of those computers),lots of documentation exist for those machine with complete schematics.As I have several of those machines I have a page on my web site about them with lots of links www.radio-astronomie.com/ordinosaurus.htm you do not have to wait in ebay ,it is possible to buy them new from a company called evita http://www.evita.lt/ at about one usd (yes) for the cpu...yes a pdp11 for one dollar,Ken Olsen was wrong definetely when he thought that pdp could not be at everyones home.I also found socket for them,look on my site for start. Of course docs are in russian but can be translated easily,and electronic schematics are universal language,all circuits are ttl,memories are standard dynamic rams. My site is in french ,but is easily translated by ggogle or others. Best regards for all, do not hesitate to ask. alain nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 4:33 AM Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 > On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >> version with EIS. >> >> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. > > Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them > having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that > there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything > around them. > > I would love for that to not be the case! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Nov 18 05:26:31 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 12:26:31 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 References: , <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> <4EC616D2.2010909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: hello,no they were not only games machine,it was possible to use floppy disks with a version of rt11,and then to do assembly language etc... Also the bk0010 and 0011 have focal,and basic in rom ,they have a rather hight resolution graphic,and a parallel port(16 bits in/out)that can be used to connetc many things,there is also a qbus compatible connector (by qbus compatible I mean that from what I have understood ,the signals are ttl compatible and their timing is qbus compatible,of course connector is not the same,soviet computing industry had close links with european standarts :they use 220v,secam for video ,euro connectors etc... ) For the fun I did quite nice astronomy programs on them ,the results were as accurate (or better) than a pc .I also did programs in assembly using the tape recorder ,somthing like we did with tapes :edit/save/assemble/save/link/save/boot/run....fun also ,I like doing assembly pdp11 on such a small machine,my wife also:less electricity,less noise...look some results on my page. best regards a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim s" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 9:26 AM Subject: Re: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 >I have a friend with another interest in Russia that looked into them. >There is more than the two sheet flyer, but this VHDL project looks way >more doable, now. > > The links are below from my friend Pavel. > > I think most of the computers that were turned up were of the game type, > or were such that they required fluent russian to make much use of them. > > This VHDL implementation would be closer to what I'd want to have to mess > with. That was one reason for asking what to do next. > Jim > > Hello, Jim. > > 1). About chips. > I am not sure that this information is searched by you. But it could > be useful probably. > > Book about K1801 series: > http://www.155la3.ru/datafiles/k1801vm1_vm2_mpss.djvu > > Page about this sereas: > http://www.155la3.ru/k1801 > > Another link about 1801VM > http://www.emuverse.ru/wiki/1801BMx > (many links in bottom of the page) > > Schemes of soviet PDP computers: > http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/BK/docs/bk0010-schematics.djvu > http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/BK/docs/bk0011m-schematics.djvu > http://www.adr-1.narod.ru/Plurimat/e60.djvu > http://www.adr-1.narod.ru/Plurimat/e60-2.djvu > http://www.emuverse.ru/wiki/??? > (in last page - many links in bottom of the page) > > List of copy names of Russian and original chips could be found here: > http://www.bitcapark.ru/mwiki/index.php?title=%D0%AD%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0-60 > > > Is it interesting for you? > > > On 11/17/2011 7:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >>> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >>> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >>> version with EIS. >>> >>> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. >> >> Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them having >> been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that there >> wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything around >> them. >> >> I would love for that to not be the case! >> >> -Dave >> From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Nov 18 09:05:47 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:05:47 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <510F6DB3B93640EEA7629C234A5E65BC@Pc12> hello here is where I bought sockets http://www.ebay.com/itm/64-PIN-ZIGZAG-SOCKET-Socket-Gold-Insert-Machined-/390207263324?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ada2a525c they are a little bit too long ,but it is possible to cut them, may be useful next useful step is to make a model for software like eagle to make circuit boards a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Sampson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:28 PM Subject: Re: VHDL PDP11 > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. > > http://www.evita.lt/ lists KR1801VM1s for 1.01?, along with assorted > support chips. I'd definitely be interested in a construction project... > > -- > Adam Sampson > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 18 13:07:26 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:07:26 +0100 Subject: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:30:59 -0500 (EST) Mouse wrote: > I don't expect any software to be bug-free. TeX? ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 18 14:24:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:24:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Nov 18, 11 01:04:50 am Message-ID: > > > >> From a _hobbyist_ perspective, I am not sure you're missing much. I've > > designed with FPGas as part of a job, and didn't enjoy it much. It is > > very different from designing logic cirucitry the old-fashioned way for a > > start. > > Who wrote that?!? Did not enjoy it? I rarely wanted to do anything else I did. > after having discovered FPGAs....! And I'll stick to what I said. I'll enjoy what I like :-). I _much_ prefer soldering to typing (or schematic entry on a CAD system). > > > > > For a one-off design, where size is no real issue, I much prefer to grab > > a handful of TTL pacakges and start soldering. > > Can be fun - as long as it's just a handful of logic. With FPGAs you can > do magic! 'It is quite possible to 'do magic' with a handful of logic. In fact some of the most interesting and elegant circuits I've ever looked at use only a handful of parts. I don't like this idea of throwing silicon at a problem until it goes away :-). -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Nov 18 16:25:14 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:25:14 +0000 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111171745.pAHHjSSr035468@ultimate.com> References: <4EC40EEC.14599.259F7F1@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC49595.4020502@verizon.net> <4EC42E73.995.2D51F78@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC53BCB.4060805@bitsavers.org> <201111171745.pAHHjSSr035468@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA038E7D@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Phil Budne Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:45 AM > Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/16/11 9:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I also recall that the Philco System 2000 was one of the few >>> commercial versions utilizing that idea. "Asynchronous" was part of >>> their advertising campaign--and, for a very short time, they had one >>> of the fastest transistorized machines. >> I have been told that the 2000 was also unreliable because of this. > The DEC PDP-6 and the KA10 (the original PDP-10 CPU) were async; > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/emulators >> From: "Carl R. Friend" >> .... >> The PDP-6 (the -10's progenitor) and the KA-10 were asynchronous >> machines, the KI-10 was a synchronous time-state machine, and the KL- >> and KS-10 were microcode implementations (pretty much by definition >> synchronous). > The PDP-6 was a cranky beast, with large boards that were prone to > failure. Hey, Phil! Long time. I don't think the crankiness in the PDP-6 was due to the async nature of the machine, but rather to the decision to go from the single connector on DEC's System Modules(TM) to connectors on two opposite edges of cards that were twice as large as System Modules.[1] Any component level failure required unsoldering the card from both sides of its placement in the machine, along with unsoldering one side of every board to which it was connected. > Scanned schematics of the PDP-6 are at > http://web.archive.org/web/20041209120010/http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/tk/pdp6/pdp6.html Thanks for that pointer. I didn't know that was around. It certainly doesn't surprise me that Knight would have (had) it, though. [1] System Modules were DEC's first product, for those who don't know. Far larger than FlipChip(TM) cards, which were introduced with the PDP-7. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Nov 18 19:39:33 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:39:33 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/11/11 2:07 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:30:59 -0500 (EST) > Mouse wrote: > >> I don't expect any software to be bug-free. > TeX? ;-) TeX is only bug-free in the limiting case. --T From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 18 20:16:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:16:59 -0800 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <7E2850BEF78C4D67A500A69E003F12A7@Pc12> References: , <7E2850BEF78C4D67A500A69E003F12A7@Pc12> Message-ID: <4EC6A11B.13790.21D5452@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2011 at 11:33, nierveze wrote: >... > http://www.evita.lt/ at about one usd (yes) for the cpu...yes a pdp11 > for one dollar,Ken Olsen was wrong definetely when he thought that pdp > could not be at everyones home.I also found socket for them,look on my > site for start. Of course docs are in russian but can be translated > easily,and electronic schematics are universal language,all circuits > are ttl,memories are standard dynamic rams. My site is in french ,but > is easily translated by ggogle or others. > > > Best regards for all, > do not hesitate to ask. > alain nierveze I wish I knew where to start with the long list of chips on the Evita site. Buying chips from Lithuania would make my ancestors proud (my grandparents emigrated to the US in about 1911 and 1918 from Lithuania). Any guidance would be very helpful. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 23:22:26 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:22:26 -0500 Subject: Mystery solved - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <4EBDC8C2.6000501@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4D3BD5BF-1361-4BAE-BB6B-821BFB71B27B@gmail.com> <4EBDC8C2.6000501@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0954F470-14E8-497D-958B-4EC31FD40721@gmail.com> On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:15 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 11/11/11 7:45 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >> So if anyone is at all curious about the answer to this particular >> quandary ... > > I am! I own some CQD boards... > > > the answer seems to be busted >> aging non-volatile storage. I desoldered the NMC9306 (Microwire >> EEPROM) and put a socket in so I could test it in my ROM burner. The >> ROM burner reads all Fs from it (I checked continuity to all pins, so >> it wasn't that) and can't program anything to it, so I guess the chip >> is borked. At least with a socket, it'll be easy to put the new one >> in. OK, I built up a rig for reading the EEPROM (I don't have any 93C46 chips yet, but I'll check to make sure the same algorithm works on them... it's a pesky line of chips because unlike most SPI devices, the bit strings are not multiples of 8. The read command also inserts a dummy zero bit before the data, so the read command is actually one bit longer than the write bit. It's a mess. Anyway, I verified that my old EEPROM is, in fact, still basically good (Xeltek's algorithm for the SuperPro 280 just doesn't work, and I don't have a digital scope to see what it's doing wrong), but I must have done the same thing a year or so ago that I did almost as soon as I got it working again. Both disk and tapes are set to zero in the unit count config word (which they took the trouble of protecting against corruption with a "magic nibble" but didn't bother bounds-checking, as described below). In short, MAKE SURE you don't accidentally tell it during configuration that you have 0 disks and 0 tapes, because if you do, the 8086 crashes when it's trying to load the disk config data. It uses the total number of units to loop through and read n unit configs out of the EEPROM and store them at [0x500 + 2i]. The problem is that the 8086 LOOP instruction predecrements the counter and checks the result for zero; if the counter is zero on the first instruction, it thus goes for 65535 iterations. Obviously, that causes problems, since we're writing memory. I made a patch for the ROM to fix this problem, because it doesn't appear to be fixed in the A8 revision either (at least, I assume; I haven't actually tried the A8 since I've replaced the EEPROM, but I'd like to think it'll work). This bug will brick a rather hard-to-find board if you make a simple mistake while typing late at night. There's an extraneous MOV instruction (probably the result of a poorly-optimizing compiler) in an opportune location to run an 8-bit add on the disk and tape numbers which JUST HAPPEN to be in registers that get thrown away shortly after. The MOV instruction gives me 5 bytes, and it looks like I only need 4 plus the trailing NOP for the ADD and JZ. In any case, I'll test it later this weekend when I've had a chance to dig up some appropriate EPROMS out of the parts bin and made sure my UV eraser still works (it got dropped during the move, but it's been dropped before and nothing looks visibly broken). I doubt I'd really run into copyright problems from a completely defunct company for a very obsolete board if I posted the fixed ROM image. Any thoughts? If the fix for the A7A revision works (that's what came with mine and it's what I have installed now), I'll make one for the A8 (which Glen Slick provided for testing) once I can disassemble enough of it to find the offending code (and hope the extra MOV instruction didn't disappear). - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 19 00:01:37 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:01:37 -0700 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article <4EC708D5.7000306 at telegraphics.com.au>, Toby Thain writes: > On 18/11/11 2:07 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:30:59 -0500 (EST) > > Mouse wrote: > > > >> I don't expect any software to be bug-free. > > TeX? ;-) > > TeX is only bug-free in the limiting case. Also, TeX is pretty feature complete being as it is an implementation of a domain specific programming language for typesetting. All the bugs and new features these days are implemented as macro packages layered on top of TeX. If TeX were being constantly changed to add features, then it would have more bugs. Its well accepted that changing code is the way that bugs get introduced, whether that change is due to "finishing" the implementation, adding new features to the implementation or even fixing existing bugs. Also, I would say that the implementation of TeX is pretty inscrutable to anyone except Donald Knuth and a handfull of other people who have bothered to spend enough time deciphering its implementation. Its implementation is purely procedural; no modules, no abstractions, no objects and no attempt to create interfaces that hide details. TeX's implementation is *all* details all the time. Knuth's attempt at "literate programming", to write a book that documents the implementation and shows you the implementation at the same time by interleaving prose and source code is IMO a complete and utter failure. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 19 00:48:19 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 01:48:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201111190648.BAA23699@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [TeX's] implementation is purely procedural; no modules, no > abstractions, no objects and no attempt to create interfaces that > hide details. TeX's implementation is *all* details all the time. Is it? It is possible to write spaghetti code in any language. It is also possible to write clean, abstracted, even object-oriented code in any language. In each case, some languages make it easier than others. Web does not offer much help for abstractions, objects, interfaces, etc - but if anyone is capable of creating clean code in the absence of language assist, it would be Donald Knuth. I haven't studied the implementation enough to know whether there is any kind of abstraction or interfacing or whatnot going on there. I've done those things myself in C - which offers slightly more language assist for them, but I haven't always used it - but, even when I have, it isn't always obvious to someone reading the code but not going to the trouble to really understand it. So, unless someone who has thoroughly grokked the code says so, I see no particular reason to think TeX doesn't have that sort of clean design lurking in the implementation. Of course, that may have happened. But I don't see reason to think so in what you wrote. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 19 00:54:51 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 01:54:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201111190654.BAA23818@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I don't expect any software to be bug-free. > TeX? ;-) TeX is distinctive in that it is one of the very few pieces of software anything like its size that I've used to any substantial extent but have never run into a bug in. I suppose I expect TeX to be bug-free in a pragmatic "if you don't run into it then it doesn't exist" sense, for "consider probable or likely" values of "expect". But when I wrote that, I really meant more the "consider reasonable or justified" value of "expect", and I also was speaking in a more abstract sense than a pragmatic sense, that is, a sense in which a bug that nobody ever trips over is considered to exist. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 19 11:06:39 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 12:06:39 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/11/11 1:01 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<4EC708D5.7000306 at telegraphics.com.au>, > Toby Thain writes: > >> On 18/11/11 2:07 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:30:59 -0500 (EST) >>> Mouse wrote: >>> >>>> I don't expect any software to be bug-free. >>> TeX? ;-) >> >> TeX is only bug-free in the limiting case. > > Also, TeX is pretty feature complete being as it is an implementation > of a domain specific programming language for typesetting. All the > bugs and new features these days are implemented as macro packages > layered on top of TeX. > > If TeX were being constantly changed to add features, then it would > have more bugs. Its well accepted that changing code is the way that > bugs get introduced, whether that change is due to "finishing" the > implementation, adding new features to the implementation or even > fixing existing bugs. > > Also, I would say that the implementation of TeX is pretty > inscrutable to anyone except Donald Knuth and a handfull of other > people who have bothered to spend enough time deciphering its > implementation. Its implementation is purely procedural; no modules, > no abstractions, no objects and no attempt to create interfaces that > hide details. TeX's implementation is *all* details all the time. It is written in a augmented version of standard Pascal (which makes it extremely portable, even through Pascal-to-C translators), so I am not sure what you were expecting in terms of encapsulation or objects. OOP was barely known at the time, and would have been unlikely to interest Knuth in any case. (Can you really imagine TeX in Java or C++? *shudder*) Whatever your opinion or disgust at TeX and METAFONT not conforming to recent idioms, these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in academic publishing. > > Knuth's attempt at "literate programming", to write a book that Have you read the book? > documents the implementation and shows you the implementation at the > same time by interleaving prose and source code is IMO a complete and > utter failure. It does however mean that the internals are very thoroughly described - probably better described than any comparable procedural system. It is also not the only literate program. Other examples that come now to mind are: * lcc, a retargetable ANSI C compiler; * Lisp in Small Pieces. These are considered outstanding expository pieces of work, and TeX and METAFONT hardly lesser. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 19 11:08:26 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 12:08:26 -0500 Subject: Literate Programming - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC7E28A.2070604@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/11/11 1:01 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<4EC708D5.7000306 at telegraphics.com.au>, > Toby Thain writes: > >> On 18/11/11 2:07 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:30:59 -0500 (EST) >>> Mouse wrote: >>> >>>> I don't expect any software to be bug-free. >>> TeX? ;-) >> >> TeX is only bug-free in the limiting case. > > Also, TeX is pretty feature complete being as it is an implementation > of a domain specific programming language for typesetting. ... > Its implementation is purely procedural; no modules, > no abstractions, no objects and no attempt to create interfaces that > hide details. TeX's implementation is *all* details all the time. > > Knuth's attempt at "literate programming", to write a book that > documents the implementation and shows you the implementation at the > same time by interleaving prose and source code is IMO a complete and > utter failure. TL;DR: Literate programming is a failure because people are too lazy to read. --Toby From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 12:30:33 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 19:30:33 +0100 Subject: o_O Message-ID: I don't know what to think about this http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16362209 -- Stephane FreeDonne Join FreeDonne - Rejoignez FreeDonne. From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Nov 19 13:09:56 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:09:56 +0100 Subject: o_O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC7FF04.9060800@update.uu.se> On 11/19/2011 07:30 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > I don't know what to think about this > http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16362209 > someone sent me this: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/044/f/e/linc_8_valentine_by_bellacielo-d39hp4x.png /P From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 19 14:32:41 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:32:41 -0700 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article <4EC7E21F.9030005 at telegraphics.com.au>, Toby Thain writes: > It is written in a augmented version of standard Pascal [...] I know. OOP has been around as long as Simula IIRC 1968. Encapsulation and abstraction have been around for just as long if not longer. > Whatever your opinion or disgust at TeX and METAFONT not conforming to > recent idioms, They aren't recent idioms. > these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, > performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in > academic publishing. That's because practically noone can understand it besides Knuth, which is why noone has been changing it. Software that doesn't change doesn't have bugs introduced into it. > > Knuth's attempt at "literate programming", to write a book that > > Have you read the book? Yes. *barf*. > These are considered outstanding expository pieces of work, and TeX and > METAFONT hardly lesser. Yet here we are about 30 years after the fact and only an incredibly tiny portion (vanishingly small, I'd say) of existing software has adopted these "outsanding" methods. I'd say the wisdom of crowds has pretty much ruled this a failure. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 19 14:33:40 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:33:40 -0700 Subject: Literate Programming - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality In-Reply-To: <4EC7E28A.2070604@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E28A.2070604@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article <4EC7E28A.2070604 at telegraphics.com.au>, Toby Thain writes: > [...] Literate programming is a failure because people are too lazy to > read. Bullshit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 19 14:44:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:44:45 -0500 Subject: information disappearing, was Re: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? In-Reply-To: <1321629701.31191.YahooMailNeo@web38103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <000301cca5ec$d285f100$7791d300$@xs4all.nl> <1321629701.31191.YahooMailNeo@web38103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EC8153D.1060900@neurotica.com> On 11/18/2011 10:21 AM, Dave wrote: > The web has lots of wonderful resources, but in some ways, it's still > pretty fragile. There's no guarantee that a useful resource today > will be here tomorrow. This is precisely why I have a very large, highly-redundant disk array that's backed up to a very large tape juke. =) Indexing, searching, and data management are tough though. A long-term project of mine is to put together a nice document management system that stores metadata and search tags. At first I was planning to write my own, but then I found one that looks like it'll work well, but getting everything in there is going to be a huge undertaking. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spedraja at ono.com Sat Nov 19 14:45:55 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 21:45:55 +0100 Subject: o_O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Evangelion :-) Sergio 2011/11/19 St?phane Tsacas > I don't know what to think about this > http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16362209 > > -- > Stephane > FreeDonne Join FreeDonne - Rejoignez FreeDonne. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 19 14:52:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:52:43 -0500 Subject: Literate Programming - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E28A.2070604@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC8171B.2070704@neurotica.com> On 11/19/2011 03:33 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4EC7E28A.2070604 at telegraphics.com.au>, > Toby Thain writes: > >> [...] Literate programming is a failure because people are too lazy to >> read. > > Bullshit. Wow, such a well-articulated, and dare I say "literate" argument! -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Nov 19 14:54:41 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:54:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: information disappearing, was Re: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? In-Reply-To: <4EC8153D.1060900@neurotica.com> References: <000301cca5ec$d285f100$7791d300$@xs4all.nl> <1321629701.31191.YahooMailNeo@web38103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EC8153D.1060900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Nov 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Indexing, searching, and data management are tough though. A long-term > project of mine is to put together a nice document management system that > stores metadata and search tags. At first I was planning to write my own, > but then I found one that looks like it'll work well, but getting everything > in there is going to be a huge undertaking. Dave, what did you settle on? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 19 14:54:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:54:52 -0500 Subject: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <201111190654.BAA23818@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201111190654.BAA23818@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4EC8179C.5000006@neurotica.com> On 11/19/2011 01:54 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> I don't expect any software to be bug-free. >> TeX? ;-) > > TeX is distinctive in that it is one of the very few pieces of > software anything like its size that I've used to any substantial > extent but have never run into a bug in. > > I suppose I expect TeX to be bug-free in a pragmatic "if you don't run > into it then it doesn't exist" sense, for "consider probable or likely" > values of "expect". "Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence!" -Edsger Dijkstra -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 19 15:02:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:02:15 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC81957.2070103@neurotica.com> On 11/19/2011 01:01 AM, Richard wrote: > If TeX were being constantly changed to add features, then it would > have more bugs. Its well accepted that changing code is the way that > bugs get introduced, whether that change is due to "finishing" the > implementation, adding new features to the implementation or even > fixing existing bugs. No. In reality, what's well-accepted as being the way bugs get introduced is MISTAKES made by programmers. Sometimes due to distraction or just plain brain-o problems, but more and more due to incompetence. > Also, I would say that the implementation of TeX is pretty > inscrutable to anyone except Donald Knuth and a handfull of other > people who have bothered to spend enough time deciphering its > implementation. Its implementation is purely procedural; no modules, > no abstractions, no objects and no attempt to create interfaces that > hide details. TeX's implementation is *all* details all the time. And yet it's as close to bug-free as any substantial piece of software that anyone can name. One can't help but wonder if he was onto something. > Knuth's attempt at "literate programming", to write a book that > documents the implementation and shows you the implementation at the > same time by interleaving prose and source code is IMO a complete and > utter failure. And yet many other major software packages that are written in extreme object-oriented methodologies tend to be hulking beasts that are so full of bugs that they're sometimes barely usable. Once again, one wonders if Knuth was onto something. Or perhaps he wasn't onto anything at all, and he's just an extremely competent programmer who can write good code in any language. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 19 15:07:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:07:43 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC81A9F.10107@neurotica.com> On 11/19/2011 03:32 PM, Richard wrote: >> These are considered outstanding expository pieces of work, and TeX and >> METAFONT hardly lesser. > > Yet here we are about 30 years after the fact and only an incredibly > tiny portion (vanishingly small, I'd say) of existing software has > adopted these "outsanding" methods. I'd say the wisdom of crowds has > pretty much ruled this a failure. Compare the number of known bugs in Microsoft Word and TeX. "Crowds" shop at Wal*Mart too. That doesn't make it good. Another thing that's vanishingly small is the world's current body of competent software developers. Your persistent attack on one of the best-known examples of extremely skilled programming is really turning into quite a "smile and nod" experience. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 19 15:09:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:09:35 -0500 Subject: information disappearing, was Re: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? In-Reply-To: References: <000301cca5ec$d285f100$7791d300$@xs4all.nl> <1321629701.31191.YahooMailNeo@web38103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4EC8153D.1060900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC81B0F.4060901@neurotica.com> On 11/19/2011 03:54 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> Indexing, searching, and data management are tough though. A long-term >> project of mine is to put together a nice document management system >> that stores metadata and search tags. At first I was planning to write >> my own, but then I found one that looks like it'll work well, but >> getting everything in there is going to be a huge undertaking. > > Dave, what did you settle on? DSpace from MIT. It wasn't really designed for this sort of thing, but I've been experimenting with it off-and-on for about a year for indexing chip datasheets and app notes, and my initial results are very positive. A few years ago I was fortunate to get all the hardware that the project was started on (a bunch of big HP machines), otherwise I'd probably not have known of its existence. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 19 15:15:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:15:57 -0500 Subject: Xeltek algorithm generator? In-Reply-To: <0DF21C48-6E15-460A-BAF9-933AE1513F09@gmail.com> References: <4EC48CDE.7050807@neurotica.com> <0DF21C48-6E15-460A-BAF9-933AE1513F09@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC81C8D.70800@neurotica.com> On 11/17/2011 01:56 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Incidentally, it just occurred to me...Did you purchase that >> CQD-220 via eBay about two years ago? > > Haha, looking through my email archives, it looks like it was. :-) Yup. :) > Thanks much for that; it's serving me well now that I've un-buggered > it (it was working fine when I got it, of course). I'm glad you got it working again! It killed me to sell it; I did so in a fit of thin-wallet syndrome. Plus, I still have another one so it's ok. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 19 15:31:48 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:31:48 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC82044.5020608@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/11/11 3:32 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4EC7E21F.9030005 at telegraphics.com.au>, > Toby Thain writes: > >> It is written in a augmented version of standard Pascal [...] > > I know. OOP has been around as long as Simula IIRC 1968. > Encapsulation and abstraction have been around for just as long if > not longer. > Yes, and what I said is also correct. >> Whatever your opinion or disgust at TeX and METAFONT not conforming to >> recent idioms, > > They aren't recent idioms. The point is that they weren't commonly applied circa TeX's birth. (And nor does Knuth seem particularly seduced by them since.) > >> these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, >> performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in >> academic publishing. > > That's because practically noone can understand it besides Knuth, which > is why noone has been changing it. Software that doesn't change > doesn't have bugs introduced into it. Maybe that is true, but it's not because it's not thoroughly documented in prose... > >>> Knuth's attempt at "literate programming", to write a book that >> >> Have you read the book? > > Yes. *barf*. > >> These are considered outstanding expository pieces of work, and TeX and >> METAFONT hardly lesser. > > Yet here we are about 30 years after the fact and only an incredibly > tiny portion (vanishingly small, I'd say) of existing software has > adopted these "outsanding" methods. I'd say the wisdom of crowds has > pretty much ruled this a failure. I said those *two books* are outstanding expository pieces of work, but of course there are other examples of literate programs as well. Literate programming didn't captivate the mainstream. But you know what? That's a pretty poor yardstick of quality. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 19 15:33:48 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:33:48 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <4EC81957.2070103@neurotica.com> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC81957.2070103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4EC820BC.9040903@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/11/11 4:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/19/2011 01:01 AM, Richard wrote: >> ... >> Knuth's attempt at "literate programming", to write a book that >> documents the implementation and shows you the implementation at the >> same time by interleaving prose and source code is IMO a complete and >> utter failure. > > And yet many other major software packages that are written in extreme > object-oriented methodologies tend to be hulking beasts that are so full And their internals are practically *never* as thoroughly described in English as TeX and METAFONT are. And how many large object oriented systems have exponential bug bounties? Or could ever afford one? --Toby > of bugs that they're sometimes barely usable. Once again, one wonders if > Knuth was onto something. > > Or perhaps he wasn't onto anything at all, and he's just an extremely > competent programmer who can write good code in any language. > > -Dave > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 16:33:21 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:33:21 -0500 Subject: o_O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I don't know what to think about this > http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16362209 Fair warning: I will punch anyone that starts fapping to this. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 17:00:44 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 18:00:44 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >> these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, >> performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in >> academic publishing. TeX is, well, sort of the "de facto standard". For the past ten years, Word has done all the heavy lifting in academics, like it or not. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 19 17:02:36 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 23:02:36 +0000 Subject: o_O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC8358C.4060008@philpem.me.uk> On 19/11/11 22:33, William Donzelli wrote: > Fair warning: > > I will punch anyone that starts fapping to this. Don't. They'd probably enjoy it... I'll get my coat. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 19 17:13:48 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:13:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: information disappearing, was Re: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? In-Reply-To: <4EC81B0F.4060901@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Nov 19, 11 04:09:35 pm" Message-ID: <201111192313.pAJNDmal014510@floodgap.com> > > Dave, what did you settle on? > > DSpace from MIT. And here I was hoping for WAIS' triumphant return. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Another day, another dangling modifier" ----------------------------------- From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 19 17:49:01 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 18:49:01 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC8406D.3000406@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/11/11 6:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, >>> performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in >>> academic publishing. > > TeX is, well, sort of the "de facto standard". For the past ten years, > Word has done all the heavy lifting in academics, like it or not. Amazing. Well, I guess everything turns to shit in the end. I don't even *like* CMR. Nice try for an amateur type designer, but I think its day is completely done. --Toby > > -- > Will > From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 19 18:09:12 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:09:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: o_O In-Reply-To: from "[St_phane Tsacas]" at "Nov 19, 11 07:30:33 pm" Message-ID: <201111200009.pAK09CWH015064@floodgap.com> > I don't know what to think about this > http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16362209 I dunno, unless there's a subtext I'm missing, I thought it was very nice. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 19 18:24:28 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 19:24:28 -0500 Subject: o_O In-Reply-To: <201111200009.pAK09CWH015064@floodgap.com> References: <201111200009.pAK09CWH015064@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4EC848BC.9040208@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/11/11 7:09 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I don't know what to think about this >> http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16362209 > > I dunno, unless there's a subtext I'm missing, I thought it was very nice. > Agreed. It's a most unexpected meme, but heck, why not. --T From us21090 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 19 18:51:53 2011 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:51:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Divesting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1321750313.20698.YahooMailNeo@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, I have some things I need to clear out. ----------------- I have a 10Mbs Canary 8-port 10base-T ethernet hub (not a switch) with BNC (thinnet 10base2) and AUI (to work with ethernet 10base5) connections with power adapter and bnc thinnet 50 ohm terminator. The last time I used it years ago, it worked, though it's been even longer since I used the BNC and AUI interfaces. Sorry I don't have any ethernet or thinnet coax or vampire taps. ---------------- Micropolis 1325 ST506 disk.? This 85MB "Disk Memory Unit" was pulled from a Sun 3/160 around 1995, if I remember the date correctly.? It was working at the time, though I don't have the set up to test it now.? C. 1986 ----------------- Clearpoint SNXRAM 8MB memory board with sockets for up to 12MB. It is a 9U VME board (about 15"x16") with lots of MCM6256BP12 chips (256K x 1 bit).? Four MB is directed mounted and 4MB is socketed (last 4MB sockets are empty).? This also was pulled from a Sun 3/160 around 1995, if I remember the date correctly. C. 1986 ----------------- Sun 501-1208 4MB system card (9U VME, ~15"x16") pulled from a working Sun 3/160 about 1995 (yeah, yeah, if I remember the date correctly). It's a has Motorola MC68020 CPU and MC68881 floating point processor.?? Board has 4MB memory and ports for ethernet (AUI port), video (DB9), keyboard (DB15) and 2 serial ports (DB25). C. 1986 -------------- Please contact me off list. Thank you, Scott From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 19 19:33:29 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:33:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: information disappearing, was Re: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? In-Reply-To: <201111192313.pAJNDmal014510@floodgap.com> References: <201111192313.pAJNDmal014510@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Nov 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Dave, what did you settle on? >> >> DSpace from MIT. > > And here I was hoping for WAIS' triumphant return. :) He should have used Pick. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ttmrichter at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 20:36:44 2011 From: ttmrichter at gmail.com (Michael Richter) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:36:44 +0800 Subject: Literate Programming - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality In-Reply-To: <4EC8171B.2070704@neurotica.com> References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E28A.2070604@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC8171B.2070704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 20 November 2011 04:52, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/19/2011 03:33 PM, Richard wrote: > >> In article<4EC7E28A.2070604@**telegraphics.com.au<4EC7E28A.2070604 at telegraphics.com.au> >> >, >> Toby Thain writes: >> >> [...] Literate programming is a failure because people are too lazy to >>> read. >>> >> >> Bullshit. >> > > Wow, such a well-articulated, and dare I say "literate" argument! > When did "literate" get equated with "long-winded"? Did I miss the memo? -- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 19 22:29:58 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 21:29:58 -0700 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > >> these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, > >> performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in > >> academic publishing. > > TeX is, well, sort of the "de facto standard". For the past ten years, > Word has done all the heavy lifting in academics, like it or not. Also, the subject of "literate programming" (Knuth style) and readable software is entirely separate from the usefulness of TeX. While its true that WYSIWYG has replaced markup for most academic publishing, TeX (or more properly the macro packages on top of TeX) are still superior in the area where it was created: typesetting mathematics. I've written a 500 pg. book using TeX/LaTeX and I don't regret using it. I've had lunch with Donald Knuth and enjoyed his company very much and I have enjoyed his lectures. However, as much as I enjoy his company and his magnum opus (Art of Computer Programming), I abhor his idea of "literate programming". Judging by the number of other people who have adopted his ideas in this area (approximately none) I'd say I'm in the vasty majority. The plain and simple reason why TeX doesn't have many bugs is because it isn't being modified anymore. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 22:53:58 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 23:53:58 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > While its true that WYSIWYG has replaced markup for most academic > publishing, TeX (or more properly the macro packages on top of TeX) > are still superior in the area where it was created: typesetting > mathematics. Yes, and that is what, 1% of all academic publications? Maybe 0.1%, for stuff that Word can not handle? "Standard" is a funny word. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 19 23:21:35 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:21:35 -0700 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > While its true that WYSIWYG has replaced markup for most academic > > publishing, TeX (or more properly the macro packages on top of TeX) > > are still superior in the area where it was created: typesetting > > mathematics. > > Yes, and that is what, 1% of all academic publications? Maybe 0.1%, > for stuff that Word can not handle? Word can handle formulas and whatnot. It just doesn't do as good a job as TeX/LaTeX/AMSTeX/etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 00:01:41 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 01:01:41 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > Word can handle formulas and whatnot. ?It just doesn't do as good a > job as TeX/LaTeX/AMSTeX/etc. Correct, but Word can do most things quite adequately. What it can not do, academic writers can often "fake" (sort of like the old days where handwritten symbols were used), or they can use TeX. It appears that these days TeX is actually only used as a very last resort (or by diehards). In any case, TeX ceased to be the academic standard quite a lot of years ago. The academics I know seem to have rejoiced when PC/Mac word processors finally could do most of what they wanted, and they could go tell TeX to go take a walk in the woods. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 20 01:39:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 02:39:46 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation Message-ID: <1nmsofcj4y4r63i31q6a1749.1321774786930@email.android.com> Got any data to back that up? Been to any universities lately? Read many research papers? I do all the time, and most are done in LaTeX. Like it or not. -Dave William Donzelli wrote: >>> these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, >>> performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in >>> academic publishing. > >TeX is, well, sort of the "de facto standard". For the past ten years, >Word has done all the heavy lifting in academics, like it or not. > >-- >Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 20 01:40:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 02:40:22 -0500 Subject: information disappearing, was Re: HP classic computer site "Computer Asylum"-- gone dark? Message-ID: 8-) Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > Dave, what did you settle on? >> >> DSpace from MIT. > >And here I was hoping for WAIS' triumphant return. :) > >-- >------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com >-- "Another day, another dangling modifier" ----------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 20 01:49:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 02:49:55 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation Message-ID: ...especially coming from people so far removed from them that they have no information to draw on but their own assumptions. Homework is done in Word. Papers are done in LaTeX. -Dave William Donzelli wrote: >> While its true that WYSIWYG has replaced markup for most academic >> publishing, TeX (or more properly the macro packages on top of TeX) >> are still superior in the area where it was created: typesetting >> mathematics. > >Yes, and that is what, 1% of all academic publications? Maybe 0.1%, >for stuff that Word can not handle? > >"Standard" is a funny word. > >-- >Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 20 01:55:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 02:55:59 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:29 PM, Richard wrote: > The plain and simple reason why TeX doesn't have many bugs is because > it isn't being modified anymore. If that's the case, then why is it that it didn't even when it was? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 07:17:31 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:17:31 +0000 Subject: o_O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 November 2011 18:30, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > I don't know what to think about this > http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16362209 I kinda like it. The same artist also has one of a girl struggling with an Apple Mac Portable, which is more my kind of vintage kit. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Nov 20 12:45:55 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:45:55 +0100 Subject: Anyone with Cipher F880 experience? In-Reply-To: <898FD74A-8616-4D63-8392-1797B9370796@gmail.com> References: <898FD74A-8616-4D63-8392-1797B9370796@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111120194555.4e3a288e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:17:51 -0500 David Riley wrote: > - When loading (and occasionally during operation, if it ever gets > that far), it bugs out with either a compliance arm or tachometer error. Is the rubber on the tape reel hub OK? I have a F880 and the rubber on those three grabbers in the tape reel hub is britle. Thus the tape reel slips on the hub. This confuses the drive and it bails out with an error. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 20 14:43:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:43:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 19, 11 01:32:41 pm Message-ID: > > these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, > > performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in > > academic publishing. > > That's because practically noone can understand it besides Knuth, which > is why noone has been changing it. Software that doesn't change > doesn't have bugs introduced into it. Hang on a second. Even if you don't like litterate programming, the fact remains that the source code of TeX (and Metafont) is avaialble, as is an explanation of what is going on. If there were serious bugs in it then sombody who have fixed them by now. The fact that TeX doesn't keep on changing (and is still widely used) seems to suggest it was 'done right' in the first place. Unlike some pieces of software I could mention... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 20 14:48:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:48:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 19, 11 06:00:44 pm Message-ID: > > >> these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, > >> performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in > >> academic publishing. > > TeX is, well, sort of the "de facto standard". For the past ten years, > Word has done all the heavy lifting in academics, like it or not. Maybe among the academics you know, but certainly not with the ones that I deal with. Incidentally, is there anything you don't claim to be an expert on? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 20 14:52:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:52:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Literate Programming - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality In-Reply-To: from "Michael Richter" at Nov 20, 11 10:36:44 am Message-ID: > > On 20 November 2011 04:52, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On 11/19/2011 03:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > > >> In article<4EC7E28A.2070604@**telegraphics.com.au<4EC7E28A.2070604 at telegraphics.com.au> > >> >, > >> Toby Thain writes: > >> > >> [...] Literate programming is a failure because people are too lazy to > >>> read. > >>> > >> > >> Bullshit. > >> > > > > Wow, such a well-articulated, and dare I say "literate" argument! > > > > When did "literate" get equated with "long-winded"? Did I miss the memo? > It didn't But a one-word expletive with no justification is not useful IMHO. -tony From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 20 19:19:14 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:19:14 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: References: <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC419EB.2010903@verizon.net> <201111162030.PAA29647@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111118200726.631db5b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4EC708D5.7000306@telegraphics.com.au> <4EC7E21F.9030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EC9A712.2000009@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/11/11 2:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:29 PM, Richard wrote: >> The plain and simple reason why TeX doesn't have many bugs is because >> it isn't being modified anymore. > > If that's the case, then why is it that it didn't even when it was? > > -Dave > Quite so: Not very many of those bug cheques were issued or cashed... http://www.flickr.com/photos/qu1j0t3/6373292909/in/photostream --T From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 20:03:39 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:03:39 -0500 Subject: Anyone with Cipher F880 experience? In-Reply-To: <20111120194555.4e3a288e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <898FD74A-8616-4D63-8392-1797B9370796@gmail.com> <20111120194555.4e3a288e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2011, at 1:45 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:17:51 -0500 > David Riley wrote: > >> - When loading (and occasionally during operation, if it ever gets >> that far), it bugs out with either a compliance arm or tachometer error. > Is the rubber on the tape reel hub OK? I have a F880 and the rubber on > those three grabbers in the tape reel hub is britle. Thus the tape reel > slips on the hub. This confuses the drive and it bails out with an > error. It only ever appears to slip when it's first latching; other than that, the tape seems to be in there pretty firmly, so I think the rubber is probably in good shape. Thanks, though. - Dave From cym224 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 16:04:17 2011 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:04:17 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 November 2011 15:48, Tony Duell wrote: >> TeX is, well, sort of the "de facto standard". For the past ten years, >> Word has done all the heavy lifting in academics, like it or not. > > Maybe among the academics you know, but certainly not with the ones that > I deal with. I have not following this thread closely but this caught my eye. In support of the answer, I note that LaTeX source is the preferred submission format for every math, computer science, physics, and chemistry journal that I know of. It is also extensively used by publishing houses such as Springer, CUP, and OUP. I cannot speak for humanities. From spc at conman.org Sun Nov 20 20:27:38 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:27:38 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, > > > performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in > > > academic publishing. > > > > That's because practically noone can understand it besides Knuth, which > > is why noone has been changing it. Software that doesn't change > > doesn't have bugs introduced into it. > > Hang on a second. Even if you don't like litterate programming, the fact > remains that the source code of TeX (and Metafont) is avaialble, as is an > explanation of what is going on. If there were serious bugs in it then > sombody who have fixed them by now. I've read up on literate programming (I even own a copy of "Literate Programming" by Knuth) but even so, I never liked the idea all that much, because it seems even *more* work than regular programming. For instance, I have a program I wrote between 1999 and 2001 that I still use to this day [1] and in that time, I merged what used to be two programs into one, replaced the IO system twice (I'm now on the third iteration) and just this month I replaced the configuration code [2]. Had this been a literate program meant that not only would I have changed about half the code, but half the verbiage would have had to change as well. At work, I deal with just a small portion of a project that involves at least half a dozen programs. One program (which doesn't actually do all that much) is 131,000 lines of code [3]. And since I've been on board (about a year) there have been at least two major architectural changes because of "issues" not forseen [4]. As it was, we barely finished on time [5]; having to rewrite sections of a "book" would have been dropped as soon as we missed the first milestone (given the push we were on to finish). Heck, just look at the difference between Linux 1.0 and 3.0. Imagine if that was done via literate programming, and how much work it would take to keep the verbiage up to date. Literate programming is just too much work. -spc (And frankly, after seeing some of the "documentation" we produced at work [6], literate programming would still be a failure) [1] http://boston.conman.org/about/technical.html [2] I replaced the configuration file, which was basically an RFC-822 format (since I had to parse RFC-822 style lines anyway) with Lua. The file looks much nicer, I can have real comments; I was able to remove a bunch of code that was replaced with several Lua modules so over all, I think it was a win. [3] Most of the code is a webserver to control the program, and another large portion is code to talk IS-41 over SS7. [4] One issue---one vendor's SMS stack took too long (on the order of half a minute or more) for what we needed to do. So out went the SMS and in went a hack^H^H^H^Hcustom protocol to implement the functionality. Another issue---one vendor's hardware didn't do what they claimed it could do, so we had to "fix" that by implementing what the hardware didn't do. And it goes on ... [5] Amazingly, we did finish on time. That's because we kept pushing back as much as possible. [6] Skipping the 1,000+ pages of non-documentation that makes up the SS7 stack, our own documentation is rather ... lack luster ... in spots. So much so that I've felt I've had to reverse engineer some of our own protocols we devised, and that's from looking at the soure code! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 20:34:28 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:34:28 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have not following this thread closely but this caught my eye. > > In support of the answer, I note that LaTeX source is the preferred > submission format for every math, computer science, physics, and > chemistry journal that I know of. ?It is also extensively used by > publishing houses such as Springer, CUP, and OUP. ? I cannot speak for > humanities. Hmmm...lets see: For the Springer site, I notice that the instructions for submission in Word are listed first and the default when the page opens. For the Oxford site, I quote "Authors should submit Word or rich-text files by the journal?s preferred method. TeX and LaTeX files are also acceptable." For the Cambridge site, both Tex and Word are given equal preference. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sun Nov 20 21:02:24 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:02:24 -0700 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Hmmm...lets see: > > For the Springer site, I notice that the instructions for submission > in Word are listed first and the default when the page opens. > > For the Oxford site, I quote "Authors should submit Word or rich-text > files by the journal's preferred method. TeX and LaTeX files are also > acceptable." > > For the Cambridge site, both Tex and Word are given equal preference. As of about 2000, Addison-Wesley editors didn't even known what TeX was, much less have a process for working with an author using TeX. I was told that I'd have to handle *all* typesetting and formatting issues myself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 20 21:04:13 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:04:13 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/11/11 9:27 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: >>>> these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, >>>> performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in >>>> academic publishing. >>> >>> That's because practically noone can understand it besides Knuth, which >>> is why noone has been changing it. Software that doesn't change >>> doesn't have bugs introduced into it. >> >> Hang on a second. Even if you don't like litterate programming, the fact >> remains that the source code of TeX (and Metafont) is avaialble, as is an >> explanation of what is going on. If there were serious bugs in it then >> sombody who have fixed them by now. > > I've read up on literate programming (I even own a copy of "Literate > Programming" by Knuth) but even so, I never liked the idea all that much, > because it seems even *more* work than regular programming. > That's the point. It's MEANT to be, because "regular programming" is where code goes to die. I'm oversimplifying, but in all seriousness, 90% of the code I've seen written by co-workers has been written by people who Just Don't Care. Don't Care enough to read RFCs. Don't Care enough to write comments or doc. Don't Care enough to learn things like regular expressions, CSS, makefiles, or even boolean expressions. Don't Care enough to improve their skills in their spare time (or even at work). Don't Care enough to realise that programming means understanding and modelling a problem domain. Don't Care enough even to spell correctly. And I could go on... > For instance, ... > > Literate programming is just too much work. Maybe "programming" is just too much work (for some). > > -spc (And frankly, after seeing some of the "documentation" we produced at > work [6], literate programming would still be a failure) Now, *that* part I agree is probable. --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 20 21:06:32 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:06:32 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EC9C038.3060302@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/11/11 9:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I have not following this thread closely but this caught my eye. >> >> In support of the answer, I note that LaTeX source is the preferred >> submission format for every math, computer science, physics, and >> chemistry journal that I know of. It is also extensively used by >> publishing houses such as Springer, CUP, and OUP. I cannot speak for >> humanities. > > Hmmm...lets see: > > For the Springer site, I notice that the instructions for submission > in Word are listed first and the default when the page opens. > > For the Oxford site, I quote "Authors should submit Word or rich-text > files by the journal?s preferred method. TeX and LaTeX files are also > acceptable." > > For the Cambridge site, both Tex and Word are given equal preference. That's progress! And I bet the math looks better than ever (not that TeX is just about math; I typeset and imposed a 400 page novel with it; not to mention the galleys for a weekly newspaper for a few years). --T > > -- > Will > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 20 21:45:57 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:45:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201111210345.WAA08320@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I've read up on literate programming (I even own a copy of "Literate > Programming" by Knuth) but even so, I never liked the idea all that > much, because it seems even *more* work than regular programming. Sure. Writing better code _is_ more work. > [...two anecdotes...] Never time to do it right but always time to do it over? I can sympathize; I've been there myself. Too often. > -spc (And frankly, after seeing some of the "documentation" we > produced at work [6], literate programming would still be a > failure) "Make it possible for programmers to write in English and you will find programmers cannot write in English." (Not that the phenomenon is restricted to English, of course.) In general, ability at skill A correlates negatively with ability at skill B, unless the skills are closely related. This does not mean that code isn't better when propertly documented. It just means that some - perhaps even most - people can't write good documented code. Since you're looking at people selected for the ability to write code, you see it as a failure writing documentation; look at people working as tech writers and you'll see it as an inability to program. Sturgeon's Law applies. Expecting all programmers to be able to produce good literate code is like expecting all programmers to be able to write good Lisp, or expecting all cooks to be able to cook anything, or all drivers to be able to drive an 18-wheeler competently, or etc. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 20 22:12:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 23:12:41 -0500 Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BDCA92E-8C38-44E6-8246-2E27CE2617AF@neurotica.com> On Nov 20, 2011, at 9:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > For the Springer site, I notice that the instructions for submission > in Word are listed first and the default when the page opens. Pandering to the least common denominator is common on our society. There are lots of Harbor Freight stores, but very few Starrett stores. Does that mean Harbor Freight sells better tools? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 21 00:03:01 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 01:03:01 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: > On 20/11/11 9:27 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > >>>>these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, > >>>>performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in > >>>>academic publishing. > >>> > >>>That's because practically noone can understand it besides Knuth, which > >>>is why noone has been changing it. Software that doesn't change > >>>doesn't have bugs introduced into it. > >> > >>Hang on a second. Even if you don't like litterate programming, the fact > >>remains that the source code of TeX (and Metafont) is avaialble, as is an > >>explanation of what is going on. If there were serious bugs in it then > >>sombody who have fixed them by now. > > > > I've read up on literate programming (I even own a copy of "Literate > >Programming" by Knuth) but even so, I never liked the idea all that much, > >because it seems even *more* work than regular programming. > > > > That's the point. It's MEANT to be, because "regular programming" is > where code goes to die. My point is that software changes. Maybe, like one of the cases at work, what we thought would work (using SMS) didn't. That whole section of the code (and if it was a literate program, a whole section? Chapter?) was scrapped and a whole new mechanism put into place. That wasn't a case of "no time to do it right, but time to do it over" (to quote a future email) but a case of "even the vendor didn't know how their own SMS system worked" (or maybe didn't inform us---I'm not sure as I wasn't there for those meetings). TeX hasn't changed. Once written, the only changes have been the (very) occasional error. It wasn't an entire section scrapped (that we know of) because of a change in requirements. And yes, the project I've been working on is working; it's now in production and frankly, no bugs have been found---or rather, yes, bugs *have* been found, but on the vendor's network that were never documented nor mentioned to us, and thus, we had to work around those particular issues. Should we use literate programming? Frankly, we have some great programmers; what we don't have are great writers. That may be asking too much. -spc (Also, the intended audience for our work is ourselves (right now, five programmers total) and we don't license or give out the code. Too small an audience to write a series of novels, frankly ... ) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 21 00:41:04 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 01:41:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201111210641.BAA10649@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > -spc (Also, the intended audience for our work is ourselves (right > now, five programmers total) and we don't license or give out > the code. Too small an audience to write a series of novels, > frankly ... ) I used to think that way, a decade or two ago. Now, I would say that's too large an audience not to. I'd say _one_ person is too large an audience to not document for. I have, repeatedly, written code and not documented it because nobody but me would ever mess with it. In most cases I've been right - but in plenty of those cases I have had to pick it up again a month, six months, a year later, and either spend longer figuring out the code than it would have taken to write documentation first time around, or throw the code out and rewrite it because that's the quickest way, then, to have code I understand. There's even one case I recall where I wrote a program, after some use discovered it had a bug, fixed it, picked it up a year or two later, puzzled over the fix, decided (incorrectly) that it was pointless, ripped it out, and then had to re-find the same bug and resurrect the fix - all because I hadn't documented any of what I'd done. (Fortunately the second time around I ran into the bug soon enough that ripping out the code was fresh in my memory.) Code without documentation is crappy code, I don't care how excellently it does its job or how clever it is or how otherwise clean it is. It doesn't have to be "literate programming" documentation; that's just a particularly good way of keeping code and documentation together and thus helping cut down on their drifting out of sync with one another. But it needs to be documented. And, before you ask, yes, I have written far too much code that's crappy in this respect. It is largely through observing the consequences of doing so that I have been forced to the above stance. This is not to say you have to document as you go, especially with experimental code. But if you don't document before the bits start rotting in your wetware memory, you will suffer next time someone - even if that someone is you - picks up the code. And wetware bitrot sets in quicker than you might think. My memory, especially for code, is far better than what I observe in most other people, and I would trust my memory for such things for a week or so, at most, unless I'm still actively working in the code in question. Don't worry if your programmers "can't write English". As much as I hate botched English, I will take botched-English documentation over no documentation any day - the only exception is if the English is so horrible that it's actually convenying incorrect impressions. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 21 01:21:31 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 02:21:31 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <201111210641.BAA10649@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <201111210641.BAA10649@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20111121072130.GA22037@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > -spc (Also, the intended audience for our work is ourselves (right > > now, five programmers total) and we don't license or give out > > the code. Too small an audience to write a series of novels, > > frankly ... ) > > I used to think that way, a decade or two ago. > > Now, I would say that's too large an audience not to. I'd say _one_ > person is too large an audience to not document for. Have you tried writing a novel? Even writing 50,000 fictional words is tough (ba dum dum!). > I have, repeatedly, written code and not documented it because nobody > but me would ever mess with it. In most cases I've been right - but in > plenty of those cases I have had to pick it up again a month, six > months, a year later, and either spend longer figuring out the code > than it would have taken to write documentation first time around, or > throw the code out and rewrite it because that's the quickest way, > then, to have code I understand. There's even one case I recall where > I wrote a program, after some use discovered it had a bug, fixed it, > picked it up a year or two later, puzzled over the fix, decided > (incorrectly) that it was pointless, ripped it out, and then had to > re-find the same bug and resurrect the fix - all because I hadn't > documented any of what I'd done. (Fortunately the second time around I > ran into the bug soon enough that ripping out the code was fresh in my > memory.) About the only time I've had that problem is when I modified sendmail.cf. Otherwise, I don't really recall a time when I've gone back to code I wrote years later and had trouble following it. Heck, I'm looking at some code I stopped working on in 1999 and I'm not having any problems with it. Amusement at what's there (hmm ... I must have started working on some persitent objects ... interesting) yes, amusement at how my coding style has changed since then, yes. Difficulty reading my own code? Not really (heck, just last year I was able to improve the speed of a 6,000 line program (is that all that is? Wow!) I last worked on in 1995, and the only documentation *is* the code). > Don't worry if your programmers "can't write English". As much as I > hate botched English, I will take botched-English documentation over no > documentation any day - the only exception is if the English is so > horrible that it's actually convenying incorrect impressions. And there are those that ignore comments in the code as they might not bear any relationship to the code what-so-ever. I try to maintain comments, but even so, there are times when the comments drift out of sequence with the code (heh---I just modified some comments in another personal project that referenced code that's been removed for six years!) -spc (So, how many literate programs have you written? 8-P From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Mon Nov 21 03:47:39 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:47:39 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 References: , <7E2850BEF78C4D67A500A69E003F12A7@Pc12> <4EC6A11B.13790.21D5452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: hello on the entry page ,go to the english entry page,the is a 'finder' on the left of the page ,just type in 1801 ,click,you will jump to it. If you want tto have a look at all russian ic seach:catalog>integrated circuits>russian integrated circuits. There are several correspondance tables between western and russian ic. I have spent the week end in making a library for Eagle for those russian microprocessors and associated circuits,(a floppy controller kr1801VP1-128,and a serial comunnications controller kr1801VP-35 or 65 ). I'll check carefully today and will put it on my site ,on the page of the russian microprocessors and computers.Did you find the documentations?I have lots of informations .to buy those circuits I tried several times to ask in Russia ,noone answered,the only one who answered was Evita in Lithania ,but several fiends accepted to buy in russia ,and send them to me, I paid by sending money to them by Paypal.I 'll give you their emails privately if you need. I was thinking of using those things to build a small pdp11 for a long time,maybe if I am not alone It will be more stimulating.. best regards a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 3:16 AM Subject: Re: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 > On 18 Nov 2011 at 11:33, nierveze wrote: > >>... >> http://www.evita.lt/ at about one usd (yes) for the cpu...yes a pdp11 >> for one dollar,Ken Olsen was wrong definetely when he thought that pdp >> could not be at everyones home.I also found socket for them,look on my >> site for start. Of course docs are in russian but can be translated >> easily,and electronic schematics are universal language,all circuits >> are ttl,memories are standard dynamic rams. My site is in french ,but >> is easily translated by ggogle or others. >> >> >> Best regards for all, >> do not hesitate to ask. >> alain nierveze > > I wish I knew where to start with the long list of chips on the Evita > site. > > Buying chips from Lithuania would make my ancestors proud (my > grandparents emigrated to the US in about 1911 and 1918 from > Lithuania). > > Any guidance would be very helpful. > > --Chuck > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 21 06:50:21 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:50:21 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/11/11 1:03 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: >> On 20/11/11 9:27 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: >>>>>> these don't seem to have impaired their reliability, >>>>>> performance, or sheer longevity: Being the 30-year de facto standard in >>>>>> academic publishing. >>>>> >>>>> That's because practically noone can understand it besides Knuth, which >>>>> is why noone has been changing it. Software that doesn't change >>>>> doesn't have bugs introduced into it. >>>> >>>> Hang on a second. Even if you don't like litterate programming, the fact >>>> remains that the source code of TeX (and Metafont) is avaialble, as is an >>>> explanation of what is going on. If there were serious bugs in it then >>>> sombody who have fixed them by now. >>> >>> I've read up on literate programming (I even own a copy of "Literate >>> Programming" by Knuth) but even so, I never liked the idea all that much, >>> because it seems even *more* work than regular programming. >>> >> >> That's the point. It's MEANT to be, because "regular programming" is >> where code goes to die. > > My point is that software changes. ... It is not clear how that suddenly implies that programmers need not write *about* their code. Au contraire, I would argue that it puts even *more* pressure on explanations and design documents. > > TeX hasn't changed. Once written, the only changes have been the (very) > occasional error. It wasn't an entire section scrapped (that we know of) > because of a change in requirements. It went through one total rewrite (just like the modern systems you describe). > > And yes, the project I've been working on is working; it's now in > production and frankly, no bugs have been found---or rather, yes, bugs > *have* been found, but on the vendor's network that were never documented > nor mentioned to us, and thus, we had to work around those particular > issues. Where did you write down all the information about those bugs and the workarounds, or are you carrying it in your head? > > Should we use literate programming? Frankly, we have some great > programmers; what we don't have are great writers. The skills are not so widely separated. The great computer scientists (whatever one's opinion of their programs) have, by and large, been great writers*. And, to restate the case we have been making, the ability to write clearly is not necessarily a dispensable part of the job (and moreso, if a good part of the job is necessarily going to be to educate co-workers?). If you still doubt the Siamese connection between the ability to write well and the ability to code well, then please read The Elements of Programming Style before we continue this discussion. --T > That may be asking too > much. > > -spc (Also, the intended audience for our work is ourselves (right now, > five programmers total) and we don't license or give out the code. > Too small an audience to write a series of novels, frankly ... ) > > * - List on request. ? - http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/l32qk/if_only_we_all_had_coworkers_like_this_guy/ From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 09:11:17 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:11:17 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I've found the following to be true: 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are going to be likely to know what it does when reviewed later on 2 - If you've modified someone else's code, you probably aren't going to remember what it does I've toyed with literate programming - it doesn't work so well when you are writing code for other people, as the utility of the documentation is limited by your ability to write technical documentation, and the odds of the original design being correct is pretty low if you are delivering code to users. You end up going back and re-writing the same code over and over again, updating the documentation starts eating up a significant chunk of time. My rule for code documentation is to be terse, to the point, explain why you are doing something as opposed to what you are doing, and only comment when it's not obvious what's happening. IE Employee.SelectOne(EmpName) doesn't need a comment, but DataSet.ReverseOrder(SortBy.Date) probably does. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 21 09:31:29 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:31:29 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au>, Message-ID: <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2011 at 10:11, Jason McBrien wrote: > I've found the following to be true: > > 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are going to > be likely to know what it does when reviewed later on I'll say only this--it depends upon how much code you write every day and how long it's been since you've seen it--and how memorable the project itself is. After about 20 years, I forget what I've written, and often, even that I've written it. Good commentary (not the line-by-line drivel, but block comments obeying the reporter's axion "Say what you're going to do, say what you're doing, then say what you've done") has saved my bacon countless times. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 21 09:59:03 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:59:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone with Cipher F880 experience? In-Reply-To: References: <898FD74A-8616-4D63-8392-1797B9370796@gmail.com> <20111120194555.4e3a288e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 20, 2011, at 1:45 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >> On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:17:51 -0500 >> David Riley wrote: >> >>> - When loading (and occasionally during operation, if it ever gets >>> that far), it bugs out with either a compliance arm or tachometer error. >> Is the rubber on the tape reel hub OK? I have a F880 and the rubber on >> those three grabbers in the tape reel hub is britle. Thus the tape reel >> slips on the hub. This confuses the drive and it bails out with an >> error. > > It only ever appears to slip when it's first latching; other than that, the tape seems to be in there pretty firmly, so I think the rubber is probably in good shape. Thanks, though. > Dave, I think I've got a TSV05 maintenance manual... Would that help you? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 21 10:02:05 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 08:02:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: <0BDCA92E-8C38-44E6-8246-2E27CE2617AF@neurotica.com> References: <0BDCA92E-8C38-44E6-8246-2E27CE2617AF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 20, 2011, at 9:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> For the Springer site, I notice that the instructions for submission >> in Word are listed first and the default when the page opens. > > Pandering to the least common denominator is common on our society. > There are lots of Harbor Freight stores, but very few Starrett stores. > Does that mean Harbor Freight sells better tools? I have no idea, but I were ever to find a Starrett store, I think I'd be obligated to build a shrine in front of it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Nov 21 10:06:56 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:06:56 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 07:31 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Nov 2011 at 10:11, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > I've found the following to be true: > > > > 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are going to > > be likely to know what it does when reviewed later on > > I'll say only this--it depends upon how much code you write every day > and how long it's been since you've seen it--and how memorable the > project itself is. > > After about 20 years, I forget what I've written, and often, even > that I've written it. > > Good commentary (not the line-by-line drivel, but block comments > obeying the reporter's axion "Say what you're going to do, say what > you're doing, then say what you've done") has saved my bacon > countless times. > > --Chuck > No arguments there. I used to manage some programmers and I'd find lots of lines like: a++; // add one to a Totally pointless. I also used to tell them that if they did something they thought was clever that the should be proud of it and point it out in the comments and be sure to include why it was so clever...that saved us a bunch of time when clever==wrong Brian From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 10:10:05 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 11:10:05 -0500 Subject: Anyone with Cipher F880 experience? In-Reply-To: References: <898FD74A-8616-4D63-8392-1797B9370796@gmail.com> <20111120194555.4e3a288e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <8B56E4DD-2BC0-4C40-AA54-467AEC091CB5@gmail.com> On Nov 21, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > Dave, I think I've got a TSV05 maintenance manual... Would that help you? I've got that from Bitsavers, actually, though the F880 maintenance manual seems to be substantially more complete. Thanks for the offer, though! I just wanted to see if anyone had ideas off the top of their head before diving into the rather fiddly diagnostic process. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 21 12:27:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:27:03 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2011 at 11:06, Brian Wheeler wrote: > No arguments there. I used to manage some programmers and I'd find > lots of lines like: > > a++; // add one to a > > Totally pointless. Heh. I vividly recall a fellow who proudly pointed out to me that every line of his code had a comment. Unfortunately, most were like: BX5 X1*X3 LOGICAL AND X1, X3 TO X5 Reading thousands of lines of drivel like this is insulting and indicates a lack of appropriate focus. On the other hand, a tight loop, with instruction timings written out as comments is quite informative. One more observation. I've read a lot of other people's code in my lifetime and one thing that stands out in sharp contrast from the run- of-the-mill awuful stuff is that the narrative commentary to good, inspired code is always well-formed, grammatically correct and often witty. Consider the fellow who's devised his own allocation algorithms using a Fibonacci series introducing his narrative with "Lieber Leser". Or the fellow who, in his buffer-management scheme makes reference to "guru beads". Or the database author who talks about quipus. When the same fellow was writing proposal text, he was equally engaging. And it's something that causes me a bit of despair when reading the 'Net-engendered 133T-text of young programmers. Now, get off my lawn... --Chuck From janprunk at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 12:21:41 2011 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:21:41 +0100 Subject: SUN/HP/DEC Equipment for pickup in Slovenia Message-ID: Disolving my collection of old computer stuff. Only for personal pickup in Ljubljana, Slovenia. If you want the computer badly, the shipping wont be less than 40 EUR/piece inside Europe, for USA or Asia shipping, you better forget it ! Stuff must be picked up latest until the new year. I accept any reasonable offers above 20 eur/computer to my E-mail address. The equipment consist of 1 x Hewlett Packard 9000 E35 2 x SUN Sparcstation 4 1 x Digital DEC 2000 Alpha 3 x Hewlett Packard Appollo 9000 712/60 1 x Hewlett Packard PC 9000 PC-308 (XT) 1 x Digital DEC 3000 1 x Power Macintosh 7500/100 Please for any queries contact me directly to my E-mail address janprunk at gmail.com I don't follow the mailing list. Regards, Jan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 21 14:14:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:14:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 20, 11 09:34:28 pm Message-ID: > > I have not following this thread closely but this caught my eye. > > > > In support of the answer, I note that LaTeX source is the preferred > > submission format for every math, computer science, physics, and > > chemistry journal that I know of. =A0It is also extensively used by > > publishing houses such as Springer, CUP, and OUP. =A0 I cannot speak fo= > r > > humanities. > > Hmmm...lets see: > > For the Springer site, I notice that the instructions for submission > in Word are listed first and the default when the page opens. > > For the Oxford site, I quote "Authors should submit Word or rich-text > files by the journal=92s preferred method. TeX and LaTeX files are also > acceptable." > > For the Cambridge site, both Tex and Word are given equal preference. You cna. of course, put various interpretations on these statements, but the very fact that they mention TeX and LaTeX implies to me that there are plenty of academics out there using said text formatter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 21 14:46:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:46:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Nov 21, 11 08:02:05 am Message-ID: > I have no idea, but I were ever to find a Starrett store, I think I'd be > obligated to build a shrine in front of it. :) I think if I ever found one (or a Moore & Wright store, which would be the approximate equivalent over here), my bank manager would be after my blood... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 21 14:51:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:51:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - In-Reply-To: <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 21, 11 10:27:03 am Message-ID: > On the other hand, a tight loop, with instruction timings written out > as comments is quite informative. I remembr reading soem of the PERQ microcode where the comemtns included the T-state that the memory controller was in (which was important as the code had to be synchronsied to this). Helped a lot... > > One more observation. I've read a lot of other people's code in my > lifetime and one thing that stands out in sharp contrast from the run- > of-the-mill awuful stuff is that the narrative commentary to good, > inspired code is always well-formed, grammatically correct and often > witty. > > Consider the fellow who's devised his own allocation algorithms using > a Fibonacci series introducing his narrative with "Lieber Leser". > Or the fellow who, in his buffer-management scheme makes reference to > "guru beads". Or the database author who talks about quipus. When > the same fellow was writing proposal text, he was equally engaging. > And it's something that causes me a bit of despair when reading the > 'Net-engendered 133T-text of young programmers. have you ever read the HP75C ROM source code? The comments are hilarious, they're often a conversation between 'Joey' and 'Roo-man'. They do however do a pretty good job of explaining what is going on. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 21 15:02:39 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 13:02:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone with Cipher F880 experience? In-Reply-To: <8B56E4DD-2BC0-4C40-AA54-467AEC091CB5@gmail.com> References: <898FD74A-8616-4D63-8392-1797B9370796@gmail.com> <20111120194555.4e3a288e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <8B56E4DD-2BC0-4C40-AA54-467AEC091CB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 21, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Dave, I think I've got a TSV05 maintenance manual... Would that help you? > > I've got that from Bitsavers, actually, though the F880 maintenance > manual seems to be substantially more complete. Thanks for the offer, > though! I just wanted to see if anyone had ideas off the top of their > head before diving into the rather fiddly diagnostic process. Ok. I went looking for it today, but didn't see it. I do know that I haven't thrown it out and it's about 3" thick at least. I got it when I got my first MicroVAX II. It was installed in the top of the case. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 21 15:27:28 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 13:27:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, was: Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have no idea, but I were ever to find a Starrett store, I think I'd be >> obligated to build a shrine in front of it. :) > > I think if I ever found one (or a Moore & Wright store, which would be > the approximate equivalent over here), my bank manager would be after my > blood... > Yep. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 21 16:51:12 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 22:51:12 -0000 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Wheeler" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 4:06 PM Subject: Re: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, > > No arguments there. I used to manage some programmers and I'd find lots > of lines like: > > a++; // add one to a > > Totally pointless. > When I started learning (and coding in) 68000 assembly that's exactly the sort of thing I used to write after each instruction. Three years later and I no longer write that rubbish :) Instead I only write comments where needed (e.g. when it isn't obvious what a particular register is storing) and the things that give a bigger overview of what is going on is prefixed and postfixed with asterisks to highlight it (e.g. **** setup & display screen ****). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Nov 21 17:02:38 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:02:38 -0000 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, References: , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <005601cca8a1$f48dda80$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 6:27 PM Subject: Re: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, > > One more observation. I've read a lot of other people's code in my > lifetime and one thing that stands out in sharp contrast from the run- > of-the-mill awuful stuff is that the narrative commentary to good, > inspired code is always well-formed, grammatically correct and often > witty. > I agree. There's nothing like skimming through source code and finding comments that reference a TV programme (or something else popular) from the time the code was written, especially if it's funny. On a relevant note, last week I added code to my first amiga demo (that I hope to release next month) that added double-buffering for a particular screen (the onscreen object would flicker every few seconds without it). One of the parts to the double-buffering referenced a label called ".not_logical_jim" (clearly a Star Trek reference, incase someone here doesn't get it). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 17:18:55 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:18:55 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> On Nov 21, 2011, at 5:51 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> No arguments there. I used to manage some programmers and I'd find lots >> of lines like: >> >> a++; // add one to a >> >> Totally pointless. >> > > When I started learning (and coding in) 68000 assembly that's exactly the > sort of thing I used to write after each instruction. > Three years later and I no longer write that rubbish :) Instead I only > write comments where needed (e.g. when it isn't obvious what a particular > register is storing) and the things that give a bigger overview of what is > going on is prefixed and postfixed with asterisks to highlight it (e.g. **** > setup & display screen ****). Certainly when I'm annotating previously unknown assembly (particularly if it's a disassembly for which there are no comments or other semantic data to begin with), I tend to annotate EVERY line unless it does something stupidly obvious (like return, or a really obvious add right after a load, etc.) because I know I can't juggle all the register semantics around in my head while I'm still discovering them. In higher-level code, this is totally dumb: a++; // add one to a Whereas the following is helpful: *dst++ = *src++; // Copy a word of src to dst while incrementing both because, as mentioned, you're doing something "clever" that might not be immediately apparent to people (we discourage people who are just starting C from doing things like that exact example because until they've had more time to get used to it, they usually assume it means (*src)++ instead of *(src++) and re-use it the wrong way in their own code). Or, of course, if you've been intentionally obtuse about your variable names (chances are you should never REALLY have a variable named "a" unless there's a very good reason to do so), you might need to explain what "a" is when you increment it. Or, if it's a pointer to a struct, it's a good time to point out that you're incrementing the pointer by one struct stride, not one byte. It's a matter of whether the semantics are obvious, but I've found everyone has different metrics for that. - Dave From vrs at msn.com Mon Nov 21 17:23:15 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:23:15 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: "Chuck Guzis"; Monday, November 21, 2011 10:27 AM > Consider the fellow who's devised his own allocation algorithms using > a Fibonacci series introducing his narrative with "Lieber Leser". > Or the fellow who, in his buffer-management scheme makes reference to > "guru beads". Or the database author who talks about quipus. When > the same fellow was writing proposal text, he was equally engaging. This kind of thing is actually a peeve of mine. I have nothing against learning a little German, find quipus mildly interesting, etc. But there is a time and place for such stuff, and it's *not* in the middle of trying to understand and debug someone else's code! This kind of stuff just comes off as a snotty "I know more than you do". (I'm not sure I have any use at all for guru beads.) Vince From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 21 17:49:00 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:49:00 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20111121234900.GB22037@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: > On 21/11/11 1:03 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > > And yes, the project I've been working on is working; it's now in > >production and frankly, no bugs have been found---or rather, yes, bugs > >*have* been found, but on the vendor's network that were never documented > >nor mentioned to us, and thus, we had to work around those particular > >issues. > > Where did you write down all the information about those bugs and the > workarounds, or are you carrying it in your head? I'm in the QA department, where I get to break the code our company writes (documentation of the actual spec is done in another department). But I did see reference to it in the revision log (we use SVN). In fact, I found it easier to track the code through the revision logs than the actual source code or documentation itself ("Oh, I see M added a new bit field to this structure, I best update the testing tool to support that"). > If you still doubt the Siamese connection between the ability to write > well and the ability to code well, then please read The Elements of > Programming Style before we continue this discussion. So, how many people here have done any literate programming? -spc (Doesn't seem like many ... ) From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 21 18:00:46 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:00:46 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111122000046.GC22037@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 21 Nov 2011 at 11:06, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > No arguments there. I used to manage some programmers and I'd find > > lots of lines like: > > > > a++; // add one to a > > > > Totally pointless. > > Heh. I vividly recall a fellow who proudly pointed out to me that > every line of his code had a comment. Unfortunately, most were like: > > BX5 X1*X3 LOGICAL AND X1, X3 TO X5 > > Reading thousands of lines of drivel like this is insulting and > indicates a lack of appropriate focus. > > On the other hand, a tight loop, with instruction timings written out > as comments is quite informative. > > One more observation. I've read a lot of other people's code in my > lifetime and one thing that stands out in sharp contrast from the run- > of-the-mill awuful stuff is that the narrative commentary to good, > inspired code is always well-formed, grammatically correct and often > witty. > > Consider the fellow who's devised his own allocation algorithms using > a Fibonacci series introducing his narrative with "Lieber Leser". > Or the fellow who, in his buffer-management scheme makes reference to > "guru beads". Or the database author who talks about quipus. When > the same fellow was writing proposal text, he was equally engaging. > And it's something that causes me a bit of despair when reading the > 'Net-engendered 133T-text of young programmers. I don't add that many comments to my own code. But when I do, it tends to be stuff like: /*------------------------------------------------------------------------ ; Per http://www.cons.org/cracauer/sigint.html, the only proper way to ; exit a program that has received a SIGINT (or SIGQUIT) is to actually ; use the default action of SIGINT (or SIGQUIT) so that the calling ; program can detect that the child process (in this case, us) actually ; received a signal. So that's why we set the default handler for SIGINT ; and kill ourselves, since the only way we get here is via SIGINT (or ; possibly SIGQUIT if/when I add logic for that). ;------------------------------------------------------------------------*/ set_signal_handler(SIGINT,SIG_DFL); kill(getpid(),SIGINT); return EXIT_SUCCESS; /* keep this around to silence the compilers */ } or /*------------------------------------------------------------------------ ; check for origin field. We only look for IPv4/IPv6 literal addresses as ; that's the only reliable way to actually transmit such information (and ; parse it as intended per RFC3164). Thus, this code will fail if a ; hostname is sent, but it would also fail if the program name with an ; embedded space but no host is sent. ; ; I suppose I could check to see if the first white-space delimited field ; *only* contains alphanumberics, but then it could fail on a message that ; is sent that contains neither a host nor a program (which is possible). ; ; Pick your poison ... this works for me ;-------------------------------------------------------------------------*/ The other trick (I think) is picking good names that reflect what the function/subroutine is doing. I hope that a function named "GlobalsInit()" does indicate what it's doing. -spc (Another question about literate programming---what can I assume the intended audience to be? A fellow programmer at the same level as I? An intern? A C*O that's never programmed before?) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 21 18:23:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:23:50 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: , <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4ECA7B16.29900.1F9CC8E@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2011 at 15:23, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > This kind of thing is actually a peeve of mine. I have nothing > against learning a little German, find quipus mildly interesting, etc. > But there is a time and place for such stuff, and it's *not* in the > middle of trying to understand and debug someone else's code! This > kind of stuff just comes off as a snotty "I know more than you do". > (I'm not sure I have any use at all for guru beads.) Guru beads are, if memory serves, the perfect example of a ring of linked buffers. They're used as an aid for meditation or in counting aid when chanting (surely you remember Arthur C. Clarke's "The 9 Billion Names of God"--a 1950s SF story involving computers and religion.) Unlike a rosary, they have no beginning or end--you just keep reusing the beads. A similar idea is in the "Towers of Hanoi" story used by the authors of the SNOBOL4 book to illustrate recursion. You also have to understand that the GB example was written in the 70's by an ex-IBMer who lived with a band of gypsies in the Santa Cruz mountains. He'd come down to the valley to grab some work when his woman spent all of his money. He played a mean gypsy guitar and was vicious at p?tanque. West coast computing was far more colorful back then. Personally, I enjoy reading things that try to educate me--it keeps me from getting bored and piques my curiosity. But if you're not curious by nature, I can see where it might be tiresome. Coding is more than writing instructions--it's about communication. Some people will dedicate many lines of commentary explaining how a particularly complex piece of code operates, using any literary device to aid in understanding. I admire those who put in enough thought to take the time to write such stuff. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 21 20:40:53 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:40:53 -0500 Subject: People who *know* stuff make me insecure - Re: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality In-Reply-To: References: , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ECB0BB5.7090205@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/11/11 6:23 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Chuck Guzis"; Monday, November 21, 2011 10:27 AM >> Consider the fellow who's devised his own allocation algorithms using >> a Fibonacci series introducing his narrative with "Lieber Leser". Or >> the fellow who, in his buffer-management scheme makes reference to >> "guru beads". Or the database author who talks about quipus. When the >> same fellow was writing proposal text, he was equally engaging. > > This kind of thing is actually a peeve of mine. I have nothing against > learning a little German, find quipus mildly interesting, etc. But there > is a time and place for such stuff, and it's *not* in the middle of > trying to understand and debug someone else's code! This kind of stuff > just comes off as a snotty "I know more than you do". (I'm not sure I > have any use at all for guru beads.) > > Vince > > It's always amusing to see the reactions to that link. This is one type that invariably pops up. I'd rather see Quad's lecture on complex numbers than the usual uncommented, buggy, over-verbose, fragile and tortured code. At least it shows that the author has seriously studied and understood something. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 21 20:57:21 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:57:21 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/11/11 10:11 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > I've found the following to be true: > > 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are going to be > likely to know what it does when reviewed later on Not everyone agrees with this (e.g. Charles Simonyi*; even prodigies grow old). Code is *not*, on the whole, self-documenting - at least as it is written these days. And even if a single method is "obvious" (let's say it's short and sweet, 5 lines), where is the rationale for the design of the 900 classes that it nestles in? Does anyone document and write manuals for huge class hierarchies? Or does everyone just learn them the slow and painful way by having to maintain them day by day after the original programmers have left? > > 2 - If you've modified someone else's code, you probably aren't going to > remember what it does > > I've toyed with literate programming - it doesn't work so well when you are > writing code for other people, as the utility of the documentation is > limited by your ability to write technical documentation, and the odds of > the original design being correct is pretty low if you are delivering code > to users. "Do the simplest thing that could possibly work" doesn't mean "incorrect or badly". > You end up going back and re-writing the same code over and over > again, updating the documentation starts eating up a significant chunk of > time. > > My rule for code documentation is to be terse, to the point, explain why > you are doing something as opposed to what you are doing, and only comment > when it's not obvious what's happening. IE Employee.SelectOne(EmpName) > doesn't need a comment, but DataSet.ReverseOrder(SortBy.Date) probably does. > "Readable terseness" is very much undermined by the majority of popular mainstream languages. No proper macros; no pattern matching; etc, etc... They do run the spectrum from unhelpful to awful. --Toby * - http://www.hackerne.ws/item?id=560185 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:14:41 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 22:14:41 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2011, at 9:57 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 21/11/11 10:11 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: >> I've found the following to be true: >> >> 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are going to be >> likely to know what it does when reviewed later on > > Not everyone agrees with this (e.g. Charles Simonyi*; even prodigies grow old). Simonyi may have been a prodigy, but I don't think I can ever forgive him for Hungarian Notation. It's like the crazy uncle of literate programming. I'm with him on that, though; even when I was younger (I'm still not even close to "old" for any standard value of the word, so I use that in its full relative meaning), it only took a few months to completely forget what my inscrutable code did. That, if nothing else, taught me to stop using single-letter or obnoxiously abbreviated variable names, and to start leaving some comments once in a while. Once I got into Perl, the timeframe shrunk to a few weeks. :-) Fortunately, I'm pretty much done with write-only languages these days and haven't had to touch Perl for about five years. I still have a soft spot for Forth, for some reason, even though it lends itself neither to readability nor commenting; perhaps I like the puzzle of figuring out what I meant with Forth. - Dave From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Nov 21 22:03:15 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:03:15 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 6:18 pm -0500 2011/11/21, David Riley wrote: >In higher-level code, this is totally dumb: > >a++; // add one to a > >Whereas the following is helpful: > >*dst++ = *src++; // Copy a word of src to dst while incrementing both I have to disagree; both comments merely restate what the code itself says, without adding information. Neither is seemly anywhere outside sample code in a language tutorial. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 21 22:18:44 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:18:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201111220418.XAA00169@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> a++; // add one to a >>> Totally pointless. >> [...] > Certainly when I'm annotating previously unknown assembly [...], I > tend to annotate EVERY line unless it does something stupidly obvious > [...] because I know I can't juggle all the register semantics around > in my head while I'm still discovering them. Sure, but incl d4 ; increment d4 is pointless even then. What helps under those circumstances - and, I would hope, what you do - is incl d4 ; increment array index or incl d4 ; increment count of...whatevers-they-are or incl d4 ; compensate for extra decrement inside loop or some such. > Or, of course, if you've been intentionally obtuse about your > variable names ...then, unless you're writing for the IOCCC or some such, you've got bad code there, in at least that respect. Of course, one person's "intentionally obtuse" is another's "why bother, it's a temporary for all of ten lines of code" or even "what do you mean obtuse, it's perfectly clear". > (chances are you should never REALLY have a variable named "a" unless > there's a very good reason to do so), NODE *sort_nodes(NODE *list) { NODE *a; NODE *b; NODE *t; NODE **tp; if (!list || !list->link) return(list); a = 0; b = 0; while (list) { t = list; list = list->link; t->link = a; a = b; b = t; } sort_nodes(a); sort_nodes(b): ...(merge step omitted)... } I am unconvinced this is either a bad use of the names "a" and "b" or a case where there's "a very good reason" to use them (x and y, or s1 and s2, or any of many other choices, would be equally good). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 21 22:41:17 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:41:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201111220441.XAA00577@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Consider the fellow who's devised his own allocation algorithms >> using a Fibonacci series introducing his narrative with "Lieber >> Leser". Or the fellow who, in his buffer-management scheme makes >> reference to "guru beads". Or the database author who talks about >> quipus. > This kind of thing is actually a peeve of mine. I have nothing > against learning a little German, find quipus mildly interesting, > etc. But there is a time and place for such stuff, and it's *not* in > the middle of trying to understand and debug someone else's code! > This kind of stuff just comes off as a snotty "I know more than you > do". It can, certainly. But it can also, at least in my experience, be anything from pure amusement (of both authors and readers) to citing a good analogy to the author's mental model, which can help immensely by aligning the reader's mental model with the author's. While of course I don't have enough information to do more than take stabs in the dark, I'd tentatively guess that "Lieber Leser" is at least partly a play on "Liber Abaci", falling into the "amusement" category (and relatively harmless if the reader doesn't get it), while the "guru beads" example may be an instance of the "analogy" case. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 22:54:46 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:54:46 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <201111220418.XAA00169@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> <201111220418.XAA00169@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <2DA3D0EE-E6C6-49DD-A96F-E00FAB621E8C@gmail.com> On Nov 21, 2011, at 11:18 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> a++; // add one to a >>>> Totally pointless. >>> [...] >> Certainly when I'm annotating previously unknown assembly [...], I >> tend to annotate EVERY line unless it does something stupidly obvious >> [...] because I know I can't juggle all the register semantics around >> in my head while I'm still discovering them. > > Sure, but > > incl d4 ; increment d4 > > is pointless even then. What helps under those circumstances - and, I > would hope, what you do - is > > incl d4 ; increment array index > or > incl d4 ; increment count of...whatevers-they-are > or > incl d4 ; compensate for extra decrement inside loop > > or some such. That's what I mean about semantics; labeling the line with "increment d4" doesn't say anything about what d4 does, while "increment index" does (though it might seem obvious to the person that wrote it). I tend to be a lot more verbose when annotating unknown code, mostly because I'm annotating my own assumptions or discoveries about it ("d4 is incremented" does not count as a discovery). >> Or, of course, if you've been intentionally obtuse about your >> variable names > > ...then, unless you're writing for the IOCCC or some such, you've got > bad code there, in at least that respect. Well, yes. But sometimes you're given someone else's code, and changing a variable name to make more sense is a hairy problem. > Of course, one person's "intentionally obtuse" is another's "why > bother, it's a temporary for all of ten lines of code" or even "what do > you mean obtuse, it's perfectly clear". Exactly. Different metrics can be a problem. I had a TA grading computer science homework under me that complained that all the students were using one-letter variables like i for loop indices - this is the sort of thing that can get carried away (and I explained to the TA that i and its cousins j and k were fairly mathematically established loop indices, so yes, it was OK). >> (chances are you should never REALLY have a variable named "a" unless >> there's a very good reason to do so), > > NODE *sort_nodes(NODE *list) > { > NODE *a; > NODE *b; > NODE *t; > NODE **tp; > > if (!list || !list->link) return(list); > a = 0; > b = 0; > while (list) > { t = list; > list = list->link; > t->link = a; > a = b; > b = t; > } > sort_nodes(a); > sort_nodes(b): > ...(merge step omitted)... > } > > I am unconvinced this is either a bad use of the names "a" and "b" or a > case where there's "a very good reason" to use them (x and y, or s1 and > s2, or any of many other choices, would be equally good). Well, that would fall into the "good enough reason" category for me (though if it were me, I'd probably arbitrarily call them "left" and "right", because I found that mildly confusing at first glance; I'd probably keep t, if only because it is then visually distinct). Obviously, everyone has different metrics for what makes "good" code. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 21 23:12:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:12:09 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <201111220441.XAA00577@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , , <201111220441.XAA00577@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4ECABEA9.25254.49D994@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2011 at 23:41, Mouse wrote: > While of course I don't have enough information to do more than take > stabs in the dark, I'd tentatively guess that "Lieber Leser" is at > least partly a play on "Liber Abaci", falling into the "amusement" > category (and relatively harmless if the reader doesn't get it), while > the "guru beads" example may be an instance of the "analogy" case. It was not at all uncommon for a German author preface an utterly opaque text with "Dear Reader". Ignored, it does no harm and is a nod to those in on the joke. Harmless, but able to draw a chuckle. I've already expounded on the guru beads. For a ring of buffers, the analogy is beautiful. I lack the erudition to include such allusions in my own code. Mine tend to be on the level of Monty Python, regrettably. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Nov 22 01:40:10 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 08:40:10 +0100 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <20111121072130.GA22037@brevard.conman.org> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <201111210641.BAA10649@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20111121072130.GA22037@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20111122084010.e0b922e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 02:21:31 -0500 Sean Conner wrote: > Have you tried writing a novel? Even writing 50,000 fictional words is > tough (ba dum dum!). It is as tough as writing a programm. Though, I don't write fictional stories, but papers about technical things. At the moment I am developing a concept of a communication infrastructure at work. (BTW: I write it up in LaTeX...) It's prose but wiriting this prose "feels" for me about the same as writing programm code. You have to envision, analyze, abstract and deduce. You need to sort your thoughts and express them. It is not that different from writing a novel. It is harder as wirting code in a programming language because there is no compiler / interpreter that checks for concistency. But that is a mechanical problem. The problem of developing a vision and formulate it in words is the same. Be they words of a human language or the idiomes of a programming language. That is why programing is an art like literature or composing music or... It would be interresting to see literate programming used for the thing I am working on. It touches three big software systems with dozends of components each and a line count in the millions, developed by about 30 engineers. How would you express modules and interfaces in literate programming, so that many people can work on several different modules at the same time? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 22 09:21:10 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 07:21:10 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECA7B16.29900.1F9CC8E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ECA7B16.29900.1F9CC8E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: "Chuck Guzis"; Monday, November 21, 2011 4:23 PM > Personally, I enjoy reading things that try to educate me--it keeps > me from getting bored and piques my curiosity. But if you're not > curious by nature, I can see where it might be tiresome. I enjoy these things too, but I'd argue that unless debugging is an avocation for you, they can distract from getting the job done -- a lot of debugging is done while people are waiting for the result. > Coding is more than writing instructions--it's about communication. > Some people will dedicate many lines of commentary explaining how a > particularly complex piece of code operates, using any literary > device to aid in understanding. I admire those who put in enough > thought to take the time to write such stuff. If it really helps explain what is going on in a terse and to-the-point way, then I'll be glad of it, too. If it is a distracting anecdote about someone's lifestyle, not so much. Especially in the pre-Internet days, I'd be mighty annoyed about having to stop and go look something up. (Also, I am just anal enough that I wouldn't be able to resist looking the dang thing up to see what I was missing.) Vince From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 22 11:08:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 09:08:32 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: , <4ECA7B16.29900.1F9CC8E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4ECB6690.10349.4268AB@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2011 at 7:21, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > If it really helps explain what is going on in a terse and > to-the-point way, then I'll be glad of it, too. If it is a > distracting anecdote about someone's lifestyle, not so much. > Especially in the pre-Internet days, I'd be mighty annoyed about > having to stop and go look something up. (Also, I am just anal enough > that I wouldn't be able to resist looking the dang thing up to see > what I was missing.) Maybe it's a cultural thing. If you've spent your life writing and maintaining applications, you probably don't have much of a sense of humor plowing through hundreds of thousands of lines of COBOL.. On the other hand, if you've spent your time writing systems code (drivers, operating systems, compilers, etc.), the view is a little different, I think. It could also be the times. When I started out, nobody had a degree in computer science--the discipline simply didn't exist. Nobody got into computer programming for the money and backgrounds were widely varied, so there was a lot of cross-pollination. I could not imagine, for the life of me, what starting out today would be like, with standardized everything, developing web applications, universities serving as trade schools for the profession. A bureaucrat's dream, it would seem. If I'd started today, I'd probably be a plumber. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 22 11:59:00 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:59:00 -0700 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66 at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > Whereas the following is helpful: > > *dst++ = *src++; // Copy a word of src to dst while incrementing both srsly? This is such a common C idiom, that I'd think anyone who feels this needs a comment shouldn't be using the language. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 22 12:05:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:05:15 -0700 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article , David Riley writes: > Simonyi may have been a prodigy, [...] srsly? A PRODIGY? What crack have you been smoking? The guy was just another programmer, no better or worse than any other good programmer, who happened to be lucky enough to work at MSFT at the time when it could still make you a millionaire. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 22 12:08:35 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:08:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Nov 2011, Richard wrote: > > In article <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66 at gmail.com>, > David Riley writes: > >> Whereas the following is helpful: >> >> *dst++ = *src++; // Copy a word of src to dst while incrementing both > > srsly? This is such a common C idiom, that I'd think anyone who feels > this needs a comment shouldn't be using the language. > ...but if you're an infrequent C user (raises hand), it's pretty helpful. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 22 12:16:44 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:16:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Nov 2011, Richard wrote: > > In article , > David Riley writes: > >> Simonyi may have been a prodigy, [...] > > srsly? A PRODIGY? What crack have you been smoking? The guy was > just another programmer, no better or worse than any other good > programmer, who happened to be lucky enough to work at MSFT at the > time when it could still make you a millionaire. > ...and don't get me started on "hungarian notation". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 22 12:19:29 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:19:29 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4ECBE7B1.9030301@bitsavers.org> On 11/22/11 10:05 AM, Richard wrote: > who happened to be lucky enough to work at MSFT He was working at PARC on Bravo-X and was courted by MSFT to develop WSIWIG word processing. He had a history with Lampson/Thacker et. al. back to the Berkeley/BCC days. You don't stay with that crew based on just luck. I'm kind of 'meh' on the early MSFT word processing products though. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 22 12:24:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:24:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECB6690.10349.4268AB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ECA7B16.29900.1F9CC8E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ECB6690.10349.4268AB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111122102349.W90129@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Nov 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I'd started today, I'd probably be a plumber. "If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith" - Albert Einstein From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 13:02:12 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 14:02:12 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28F2DA24-AD6B-43DB-A7B8-88C5E2C7550C@gmail.com> On Nov 22, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Richard wrote: >> Whereas the following is helpful: >> >> *dst++ = *src++; // Copy a word of src to dst while incrementing both > > srsly? This is such a common C idiom, that I'd think anyone who feels > this needs a comment shouldn't be using the language. The point is that code I write often gets read by people who *don't* know C/C++ that well, but still feel the need to point out that it's "mysterious" in design reviews. Yes, that happens. Yes, we all have dumb customers/students sometimes. I prefer to forestall the idiotic review notes instead, because it's bad for business when I want to strangle customers. :-) I should also point out that it's a common C/C++ idiom for people who didn't grow up in a world where everything is a library. One might argue that people who don't know C/C++ well enough to understand the order of operations should probably learn a bit more before passing comment on someone else's work, but that's not the world we live in. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 22 13:08:43 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:08:43 -0700 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECBE7B1.9030301@bitsavers.org> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECBE7B1.9030301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4ECBE7B1.9030301 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 11/22/11 10:05 AM, Richard wrote: > > who happened to be lucky enough to work at MSFT > > He was working at PARC on Bravo-X and was courted by MSFT > to develop WSIWIG word processing. He had a history with > Lampson/Thacker et. al. back to the Berkeley/BCC days. You > don't stay with that crew based on just luck. ok, we're back to my comment on being a good programmer. When I read the interviews in "Programmers at Work", of which Simonyi is one, and I see the example code they're publishing and the answers they're giving, I'm like "sounds like most people I've worked with", not OMFG! he's a genius! a prodigy! one-in-a-million! I'm just sick of seeing people who became wealthy because they were in the right place at the right time being called "genius" and "prodigy". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 22 14:06:15 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:06:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <28F2DA24-AD6B-43DB-A7B8-88C5E2C7550C@gmail.com> References: , <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> , <4EC9FE51.10325.126A0C@cclist.sydex.com> <1321891616.26181.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <005501cca8a1$f3178e30$a10678d5@user8459cef6fa> <31E3916E-4E97-4A16-83C8-D1A6C4DC0E66@gmail.com> <28F2DA24-AD6B-43DB-A7B8-88C5E2C7550C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111122112509.D90129@shell.lmi.net> > >> *dst++ = *src++; // Copy a word of src to dst while incrementing both > > srsly? This is such a common C idiom, that I'd think anyone who feels > > this needs a comment shouldn't be using the language. Syllabus statement about comments: "Comments are necessary. Although the compiler won't choke on uncommented code, it WILL get you a failing grade in this class, and maybe eventually fired from a job! "Every program or block of code must have comments that identify what it is and what it does. It should not be necessary to study the code to find out what a program or block of code does. "Anything clever or confusing needs a more specific comment. If you do something brilliant, make it yours! "Commenting will vary according to who it is for. Comments for your boss may be different than those that are appropriate for the rest of the cow- orkers. "In this class, I want you to comment at a level that would explain things to the rest of this class. while (*t++ = *s++); needs a comment in a first semester class, but by the second or third semester, you could assume that everybody would understand it. "After the end of the class, however, you will need to comment in whatever way your BOSS wants. If you write code for yourself, you certainly can comment however you want, but I'd still RECOMMEND that you comment generously, and comment so that your friends can understand, and so that you can understand it if you come back to the code many years later, or tired, or in a hurry, or after 4:20." From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 14:42:28 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 13:42:28 -0700 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Yeah!! I was always wondering if they copied the exact electrical specs of the Dec machines or they were simple "work-a-likes" maybe software compatible and able to run Dec software but not interchanging parts. I only bring this up as I see a Russian Pro-350 on ebay right now: 180760525391 It's relevant to me as I picked up a Russian DEC Pro clone a couple of years ago (almost identical to the one on Ebay now) but, unfortunately, it won't power up. I always wondered if the Russian hard drives and floppys might work in my DEC Pro. I think my Russian machine may need a new power supply but with no docs or schematics, the chances of resurrecting it or at least finding the fault, appear to be slim and none. Cheers Tom On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >> version with EIS. >> >> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. >> > > Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them > having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that > there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything > around them. > > I would love for that to not be the case! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 22 14:44:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:44:17 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <28F2DA24-AD6B-43DB-A7B8-88C5E2C7550C@gmail.com> References: , , <28F2DA24-AD6B-43DB-A7B8-88C5E2C7550C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ECB9921.15306.107ED4E@cclist.sydex.com> Someone wrote: *dst++ = *src++; // Copy a word of src to dst while incrementing both If I were looking at the code, I'd wonder why a memory move intrinsic wasn't used (memcpy/memmove) and would have appreciated commentary as to why it wasn't done. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 22 14:51:46 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:51:46 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > I've found the following to be true: > 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are > going to be likely to know what it does when reviewed later on You must have a much better memory than most people. My experience, which matches that of every programmer I've spoken to about this, is that any code I wrote but last looked more than three years ago takes very nearly as much effort to understand as code of comparable quality by another author but which I've never seen before. That means that I find it worthwhile to document code well even if I think that the only audience for that documentation is my future self. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 15:28:15 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 16:28:15 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECB9921.15306.107ED4E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <28F2DA24-AD6B-43DB-A7B8-88C5E2C7550C@gmail.com> <4ECB9921.15306.107ED4E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 22, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Someone wrote: > > *dst++ = *src++; // Copy a word of src to dst while incrementing > both > > If I were looking at the code, I'd wonder why a memory move intrinsic > wasn't used (memcpy/memmove) and would have appreciated commentary as > to why it wasn't done. Well, yeah, there's that. The only time I've ever *really* needed to do that was in situations where memcpy/memmove were not well-optimized (it happens). My specific example was a PowerPC screen blitter long ago where you could move memory a lot faster if you moved it as floating-point doubles (memcpy/memmove only used the integer registers in that implementation for some reason). I eventually ended up rewriting it as assembler anyway. - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 22 17:20:15 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:20:15 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4ECC2E2F.9060205@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > Simonyi may have been a prodigy, but I don't think > I can ever forgive him for Hungarian Notation. Note that what most people practice as "Hungarian Notation" is *NOT* what Simonyi suggested. Simonyi's idea had some merit, but a bunch of people that didn't actually understand it popularized the idea of simply trying to abbreviate the raw data type names while conveying no useful semantic information. The Wikipedia article describes the difference between the two. Simonyi's practice is now called "Apps Hungarian", while the more common but totally useless kind is called "Systems Hungarian". From searetcompsoc at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 17:48:40 2011 From: searetcompsoc at gmail.com (SRCS Admin) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:48:40 -0800 Subject: Seattle Retro-Computing Society: last 2011 meeting Sat. Nov. 26th Message-ID: Many thanks to whomever unclogged the backlog that, until recently, kept me from accessing cctalk or cctech. Now I can post these announcements myself! And there was much rejoicing, etc. -------- Come one, come all, to the Seattle Retro-Computing Society's monthly meeting, on Saturday, November 26th, 2011! You don't want to miss this one -- it's our last meeting until January 2012. Do you do any of the following with old computers near Seattle? + Use, collect, and/or restore them + Play games on them + Write programs for them + Develop new hardware for them + Help other people do any of the above If your answer was "yes," as I expect it will be if you're reading this near Seattle, then the SRCS is for you! We exist so you can show off your awesome stuff, bounce ideas off of fellow enthusiasts, and be inspired by one another's achievements, plans and aspirations. No idea is too big or too small, and we're not picky about what flavor of vintage machine you prefer! Come on down and tell us about it! Please note that, as it would fall on Christmas Eve and no one would attend, we will not be meeting in December. If you miss this meeting, you won't get to see everyone (and their nifty stuff) again until January. The meetings are graciously hosted by the Living Computer Museum, which is gradually fitting out a computer museum in Seattle's SODO neighborhood. There will be refreshments, a Buy-Sell-Free-Trade table, and enough table space & power to set up anything you may want to show off! For further details, please see our web page at http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com/ and our mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/seattle-retrocomp . Hope to see you there! Gordon "gsteemso" Steemson SRCS agitator-in-chief -- The Seattle Retro-Computing Society http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 22 18:04:50 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 17:04:50 -0700 Subject: Looks like a home brew PDP 111 here ... Soviet chips need not apply Message-ID: <4ECC38A2.9060509@jetnet.ab.ca> http://porkrind.org/missives/the-core-memory-module-from-my-dads-homebuilt-pdp-1105/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 22 18:09:59 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 17:09:59 -0700 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECC2E2F.9060205@brouhaha.com> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC2E2F.9060205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4ECC2E2F.9060205 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > David Riley wrote: > > Simonyi may have been a prodigy, but I don't think > > I can ever forgive him for Hungarian Notation. > > Note that what most people practice as "Hungarian Notation" is *NOT* > what Simonyi suggested. I've read his original essay. It's still a shitty suggestion. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 22 18:18:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 16:18:03 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECC2E2F.9060205@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4ECC2E2F.9060205@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ECBCB3B.23555.1CBA4A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Nov 2011 at 15:20, Eric Smith wrote: > Note that what most people practice as "Hungarian Notation" is *NOT* > what Simonyi suggested. Simonyi's idea had some merit, but a bunch of > people that didn't actually understand it popularized the idea of > simply trying to abbreviate the raw data type names while conveying no > useful semantic information. The Wikipedia article describes the > difference between the two. Simonyi's practice is now called "Apps > Hungarian", while the more common but totally useless kind is called > "Systems Hungarian". I would've called it "Microsoft Hungarian". :) --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 22 18:38:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 16:38:03 -0800 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4ECBCFEB.9146.1DDF414@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2011 at 10:47, nierveze wrote: > hello > on the entry page ,go to the english entry page,the is a 'finder' on > the left of the page ,just type in 1801 ,click,you will jump to it. If > you want tto have a look at all russian ic seach:catalog>integrated > circuits>russian integrated circuits. There are several correspondance > tables between western and russian ic. I have spent the week end in > making a library for Eagle for those russian microprocessors and > associated circuits,(a floppy controller kr1801VP1-128,and a serial > comunnications controller kr1801VP-35 or 65 ). I'll check carefully > today and will put it on my site ,on the page of the russian > microprocessors and computers.Did you find the documentations?I have > lots of informations .to buy those circuits I tried several times to > ask in Russia ,noone answered,the only one who answered was Evita in > Lithania ,but several fiends accepted to buy in russia ,and send them > to me, I paid by sending money to them by Paypal.I 'll give you their > emails privately if you need. I was thinking of using those things to > build a small pdp11 for a long time,maybe if I am not alone It will be > more stimulating.. It's going to take some time to work through this all. I'm pretty certain that it's prudent to order several chips of the same type, as shipping to the US for any of this is going to be inconvenient. I'll review what I can find and see if some sort of plan can be developed. Best regards, Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 22 18:39:15 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:39:15 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECB0F91.8050802@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECBE7B1.9030301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4ECC40B3.9020606@telegraphics.com.au> On 22/11/11 2:08 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4ECBE7B1.9030301 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> On 11/22/11 10:05 AM, Richard wrote: >>> who happened to be lucky enough to work at MSFT >> >> He was working at PARC on Bravo-X and was courted by MSFT >> to develop WSIWIG word processing. He had a history with >> Lampson/Thacker et. al. back to the Berkeley/BCC days. You >> don't stay with that crew based on just luck. > > ok, we're back to my comment on being a good programmer. When I read > the interviews in "Programmers at Work", of which Simonyi is one, and > I see the example code they're publishing and the answers they're > giving, I'm like "sounds like most people I've worked with", not OMFG! > he's a genius! a prodigy! one-in-a-million! > > I'm just sick of seeing people who became wealthy because they were in > the right place at the right time being called "genius" and "prodigy". I agree, but my point wasn't about Simonyi. It was about "prodigies" and people who feel their ability to read and write code is prodigious (for now...) Most Valley wealthy were simply in the right place at the right time; I think that's fairly self evident by now. --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 22 18:55:47 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:55:47 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: , <4ECA2777.27258.B3298A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ECA7B16.29900.1F9CC8E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ECC4493.7050501@telegraphics.com.au> On 22/11/11 10:21 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Chuck Guzis"; Monday, November 21, 2011 4:23 PM >> Personally, I enjoy reading things that try to educate me--it keeps me >> from getting bored and piques my curiosity. But if you're not curious >> by nature, I can see where it might be tiresome. > > I enjoy these things too, but I'd argue that unless debugging is an > avocation for you, they can distract from getting the job done -- a lot > of debugging is done while people are waiting for the result. > >> Coding is more than writing instructions--it's about communication. >> Some people will dedicate many lines of commentary explaining how a >> particularly complex piece of code operates, using any literary device >> to aid in understanding. I admire those who put in enough thought to >> take the time to write such stuff. > > If it really helps explain what is going on in a terse and to-the-point > way, then I'll be glad of it, too. If it is a distracting anecdote about > someone's lifestyle, not so much. It was a lecture on *complex numbers*. If you want to criticise the didactic style, go ahead; but instead, you wrote: 'there is a time and place for such stuff ... it's *not* in the middle of trying to understand and debug someone else's code' Did you not consider that the code in question might have involved complex numbers? Why assume it was an irrelevant digression? It could well be helpful for debugging or just understanding how the following code works. > Especially in the pre-Internet days, > I'd be mighty annoyed about having to stop and go look something up. Um, touch?. And half the world wouldn't bother and would go ahead with the usual "what happens if I change *that*" haphazard fiddling. --T > (Also, I am just anal enough that I wouldn't be able to resist looking > the dang thing up to see what I was missing.) > > Vince > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 22 18:56:57 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:56:57 -0500 Subject: Checklists - Re: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ECC44D9.5010304@telegraphics.com.au> On 22/11/11 3:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Jason McBrien wrote: > > I've found the following to be true: > > 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are > > going to be likely to know what it does when reviewed later on > > You must have a much better memory than most people. My experience, > which matches that of every programmer I've spoken to about this, is > that any code I wrote but last looked more than three years ago takes > very nearly as much effort to understand as code of comparable quality > by another author but which I've never seen before. > > That means that I find it worthwhile to document code well even if I > think that the only audience for that documentation is my future self. > You bet. There's a *reason* why pilots use long written checklists - no matter what their age or self-confidence. --Toby From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 22 21:57:39 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:57:39 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECB6690.10349.4268AB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ECA7B16.29900.1F9CC8E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ECB6690.10349.4268AB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: "Chuck Guzis"; Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:08 AM > Maybe it's a cultural thing. If you've spent your life writing and > maintaining applications, you probably don't have much of a sense of > humor plowing through hundreds of thousands of lines of COBOL.. On > the other hand, if you've spent your time writing systems code > (drivers, operating systems, compilers, etc.), the view is a little > different, I think. I'm a kernel and driver guy myself, but the culture where I worked was not exactly laid back. From: "Toby Thain"; Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:55 PM >> If it really helps explain what is going on in a terse and to-the-point >> way, then I'll be glad of it, too. If it is a distracting anecdote about >> someone's lifestyle, not so much. > > It was a lecture on *complex numbers*. If you want to criticise the > didactic style, go ahead; but instead, you wrote: > > 'there is a time and place for such stuff ... it's *not* in the > middle of trying to understand and debug someone else's code' > > Did you not consider that the code in question might have involved > complex numbers? Why assume it was an irrelevant digression? It could > well be helpful for debugging or just understanding how the following > code works. OK, I must have missed something. I thought I was commenting on a remark about a story about Guru Beads by an ex-IBMer who lived with gypsies in the mountains. Did his story have to do with complex numbers? > > Especially in the pre-Internet days, >> I'd be mighty annoyed about having to stop and go look something up. > > Um, touch?. And half the world wouldn't bother and would go ahead with > the usual "what happens if I change *that*" haphazard fiddling. It is this annoyance that I was originally trying to get at. It should be possible to stick to the cultural context that is likely to be shared with whoever has to fix the code later. I was arguing that it was helpful to do so, and leave the broadening experiences for another time. Vince From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 22 22:34:04 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 23:34:04 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: , <4ECA7B16.29900.1F9CC8E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ECB6690.10349.4268AB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ECC77BC.3060403@telegraphics.com.au> On 22/11/11 10:57 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Chuck Guzis"; Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:08 AM >> Maybe it's a cultural thing. If you've spent your life writing and >> maintaining applications, you probably don't have much of a sense of >> humor plowing through hundreds of thousands of lines of COBOL.. On >> the other hand, if you've spent your time writing systems code >> (drivers, operating systems, compilers, etc.), the view is a little >> different, I think. > > I'm a kernel and driver guy myself, but the culture where I worked > was not exactly laid back. > > From: "Toby Thain"; Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:55 PM >>> If it really helps explain what is going on in a terse and to-the-point >>> way, then I'll be glad of it, too. If it is a distracting anecdote about >>> someone's lifestyle, not so much. >> >> It was a lecture on *complex numbers*. If you want to criticise the >> didactic style, go ahead; but instead, you wrote: >> >> 'there is a time and place for such stuff ... it's *not* in the >> middle of trying to understand and debug someone else's code' >> >> Did you not consider that the code in question might have involved >> complex numbers? Why assume it was an irrelevant digression? It could >> well be helpful for debugging or just understanding how the following >> code works. > > OK, I must have missed something. I thought I was commenting on > a remark about a story about Guru Beads by an ex-IBMer who lived > with gypsies in the mountains. Did his story have to do with complex > numbers? I beg your pardon - we agree! I misread your replies as disparaging the earlier link I posted (which was a lesson on complex numbers as a preamble to some Lisp code). > >> > Especially in the pre-Internet days, >>> I'd be mighty annoyed about having to stop and go look something up. >> >> Um, touch?. And half the world wouldn't bother and would go ahead with >> the usual "what happens if I change *that*" haphazard fiddling. > > It is this annoyance that I was originally trying to get at. It should be > possible to stick to the cultural context that is likely to be shared with > whoever has to fix the code later. I was arguing that it was helpful to > do so, and leave the broadening experiences for another time. Right: I don't think comments should be off-topic. --Toby > > Vince > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 22:43:40 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 23:43:40 -0500 Subject: Checklists - Re: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECC44D9.5010304@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> <4ECC44D9.5010304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 22, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > You bet. There's a *reason* why pilots use long written checklists - no matter what their age or self-confidence. Well. Some pilots with excessive self-confidence don't use the checklists. They don't do that for long, though. - Dave From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Nov 22 23:14:07 2011 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:14:07 -0800 Subject: Checklists - Re: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> <4ECC44D9.5010304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <25717848-F8C2-42DD-92BF-3DA75E668EEE@mainecoon.com> On 22 Nov 2011, at 8:43 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 22, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> You bet. There's a *reason* why pilots use long written checklists - no matter what their age or self-confidence. > > Well. Some pilots with excessive self-confidence don't use the checklists. They don't do that for long, though. To be fair, not all of the checklists I use while flying are written. Run-up, departure, approach and pre-landing, yes; configuration changes, no -- they're more like a mantra. There's also one that gets chanted aloud with brake release and another that gets repeated on short final. Initial emergency checklists have always been committed to memory, although I did have occasion to break out the "emergency procedures -- amplified" checklist on one occasion when I lost the engine in a single-engine aircraft at FL200. It wasn't like I was going to be going anywhere for a while, so I figured I might as well read the line of jive. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Tue Nov 22 15:50:12 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 22:50:12 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: hello Tom I think that the russian clone of decpro is known also as ms-0585 (in cyrillic MC-0585),I have lots of docs about that machine , Confirm that it is the machine you have,email me privately ,and I'll email you the docs tomorrow ,they are djvu. otherwise the hardware has nothing interchangeable with DEC 's. The one for sale now on ebay is very ,very too expensive for me. Best regards Alain Nierveze nierveze at radio-astronomie.com www.radio-astronomie.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom publix" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 > Yeah!! I was always wondering if they copied the exact electrical specs > of > the Dec machines or they were simple "work-a-likes" maybe software > compatible and able to run Dec software but not interchanging parts. > > I only bring this up as I see a Russian Pro-350 on ebay right now: > 180760525391 > > It's relevant to me as I picked up a Russian DEC Pro clone a couple of > years ago (almost identical to the one on Ebay now) but, unfortunately, > it won't power up. I always wondered if the Russian hard drives and > floppys might work in my DEC Pro. > > I think my Russian machine may need a new power supply but with no > docs > or schematics, the chances of resurrecting it or at least finding the > fault, appear to be slim and none. > > Cheers > > Tom > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Dave McGuire > wrote: > >> On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >>> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >>> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >>> version with EIS. >>> >>> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. >>> >> >> Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them >> having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that >> there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything >> around them. >> >> I would love for that to not be the case! >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> New Kensington, PA >> From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Nov 22 19:06:05 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:06:05 +1100 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 23/11/2011, at 7:51 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > You must have a much better memory than most people. My experience, which matches that of every programmer I've spoken to about this, is that any code I wrote but last looked more than three years ago takes very nearly as much effort to understand as code of comparable quality by another author but which I've never seen before. I've got code sitting on a shelf in my study that I wrote nearly 40 years ago. Just for interest's sake I thought I'd see if I could understand it - the answer is no, mainly as I can't really read PDP-10 assembler any more :-( I looked at some slightly later stuff (probably 35 years old) written in BCPL - I can read and understand it but don't know why I wrote it that way. I guess I've learnt something about algorithms in the intervening time! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 22 19:47:32 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon VP-3000 most FAQ plus other important information Message-ID: <1322012852.28709.YahooMailClassic@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have opened up my Canon VP-3000. It has an 8088. I need docs and warez. I have a boxed up set of docs for the AT & T 7300 UNIX PC. I don't want them. They're free for shippage. Let me know. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Nov 23 01:18:21 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:18:21 -0600 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com> On 11/22/2011 2:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Jason McBrien wrote: > > I've found the following to be true: > > 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are > > going to be likely to know what it does when reviewed later on > > You must have a much better memory than most people. My experience, > which matches that of every programmer I've spoken to about this, is > that any code I wrote but last looked more than three years ago takes > very nearly as much effort to understand as code of comparable quality > by another author but which I've never seen before. > > That means that I find it worthwhile to document code well even if I > think that the only audience for that documentation is my future self. > Yes, indeed! I can well remember at times looking at code I wrote only 6 months previously and going "Who wrote this mess?" ;-) or at least going "I wonder what this does?". In recent years I've been known to claim, perhaps somewhat facetiously, that the comments are worth more than the code. Maybe what software development really needs is a language where the comments *are* the code? -- Later, Charlie C. In God We Trust!!! NASA: Give Ed Mitchell his camera back! From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Nov 23 01:23:07 2011 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 07:23:07 +0000 Subject: HP 2116 bit needed In-Reply-To: <4ECC38A2.9060509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4ECC38A2.9060509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3042c2ef-ca3c-417b-b641-1e14ebb1cd89@email.android.com> Hi all, Returning to the occasional saga of the HP 2116 restoration.... It appears the board which is most conspicuous by its absence is the PSU logic supply regulator 2116-6014. Would anyone have one of these available? Or failing that can anyone provide detail photographs of an example? -- Colin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Nov 23 02:38:05 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 00:38:05 -0800 Subject: HP 2116 bit needed In-Reply-To: <3042c2ef-ca3c-417b-b641-1e14ebb1cd89@email.android.com> References: <4ECC38A2.9060509@jetnet.ab.ca> <3042c2ef-ca3c-417b-b641-1e14ebb1cd89@email.android.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Nov 22, at 11:23 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Hi all, > > Returning to the occasional saga of the HP 2116 restoration.... It > appears the board which is most conspicuous by its absence is the > PSU logic supply regulator 2116-6014. Would anyone have one of > these available? Or failing that can anyone provide detail > photographs of an example? I believe this board is nearly identical (or is identical) for the 2116B & 2116C - is it missing from both units that you have there? I will send the schematics for the 2116C power supply, 2116B PS schematic is available in the 2116B manual on bitsavers. Will take photos of the 2116C board if you like. Powered up my 2116C for the first time in a long while, after your last message, and toggled in some blinkenlight programs. Still works, at least. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 23 07:58:03 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:58:03 -0000 Subject: Looks like a home brew PDP 111 here ... Soviet chips need not apply In-Reply-To: <4ECC38A2.9060509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: ben [bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] wrote: > http://porkrind.org/missives/the-core-memory-module-from-my-da > ds-homebuilt-pdp-1105/ Now that is one impressive piece of homebrew! Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Wed Nov 23 03:31:35 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:31:35 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CA6295584B94D00B381B292C69BB762@Pc12> hello,finally here are the docs (I think,as there is no picture of the machine itself) http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/E-85/L%20Juriy/ and here more,with the schematics of the video http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/E-85/ best regards alain ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom publix" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 > Yeah!! I was always wondering if they copied the exact electrical specs > of > the Dec machines or they were simple "work-a-likes" maybe software > compatible and able to run Dec software but not interchanging parts. > > I only bring this up as I see a Russian Pro-350 on ebay right now: > 180760525391 > > It's relevant to me as I picked up a Russian DEC Pro clone a couple of > years ago (almost identical to the one on Ebay now) but, unfortunately, > it won't power up. I always wondered if the Russian hard drives and > floppys might work in my DEC Pro. > > I think my Russian machine may need a new power supply but with no > docs > or schematics, the chances of resurrecting it or at least finding the > fault, appear to be slim and none. > > Cheers > > Tom > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Dave McGuire > wrote: > >> On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >>> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >>> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >>> version with EIS. >>> >>> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. >>> >> >> Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them >> having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that >> there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything >> around them. >> >> I would love for that to not be the case! >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> New Kensington, PA >> From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 23 08:24:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:24:05 -0500 Subject: Looks like a home brew PDP 111 here ... Soviet chips need not apply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E7CDF67-9AD0-47C2-8F66-D4A7997C14D2@neurotica.com> On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:58 AM, wrote: > ben [bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] wrote: >> http://porkrind.org/missives/the-core-memory-module-from-my-da >> ds-homebuilt-pdp-1105/ > > Now that is one impressive piece of homebrew! You're not kidding! -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Nov 23 08:53:06 2011 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:53:06 +0000 Subject: HP 2116 bit needed In-Reply-To: References: <4ECC38A2.9060509@jetnet.ab.ca> <3042c2ef-ca3c-417b-b641-1e14ebb1cd89@email.android.com> Message-ID: <7a924b93-61ac-4e52-b576-fc53fa321230@email.android.com> Logic regulator is missing from both systems, yes. Memory regulator is missing from the C. One arithmetic logic card is missing from one system- but they should be pretty interchangeable. So I have a full set for one running system. With the logic regulator card, the B would be functionally complete. Thanks for the schematic. I've started transporting the manual scans into a PCB design tool should it become necessary to get a new board fabricated. I'd much prefer to find an original though! -- Colin Brent Hilpert wrote: On 2011 Nov 22, at 11:23 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Hi all, > > Returning to the occasional saga of the HP 2116 restoration.... It > appears the board which is most conspicuous by its absence is the > PSU logic supply regulator 2116-6014. Would anyone have one of > these available? Or failing that can anyone provide detail > photographs of an example? I believe this board is nearly identical (or is identical) for the 2116B & 2116C - is it missing from both units that you have there? I will send the schematics for the 2116C power supply, 2116B PS schematic is available in the 2116B manual on bitsavers. Will take photos of the 2116C board if you like. Powered up my 2116C for the first time in a long while, after your last message, and toggled in some blinkenlight programs. Still works, at least. From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Nov 23 10:59:21 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:59:21 -0600 Subject: Anyone have a Hobby Board for sale (4" x 4.5" , 44 contacts, 1.56 on center contacts) wire wrap prototype board Message-ID: <4ECD2669.9000804@comcast.net> From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 23 11:51:58 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 17:51:58 +0000 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <1321016823.70603.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1321016823.70603.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1322070718.12428.13.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 05:07 -0800, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I kinda had the opposite reaction. I figured that the whole "attaching mains power to data connectors" was a sort of rite of passage... something every geek has done at some point. I'd wager that most of us have some kind of EtherKiller or related device hanging around, if only for the shock value when someone else sees it. And, of course, for demonstrating the meaning of the phrase "magic smoke". I have a cable which consists of a UK mains plug, a length of low-current mains cable... and a bare end. I use it for testing power supplies, specifically AC-DC "industrial" or "embedded" PSUs with screw-terminal connectors. > Hint: a 4 pin molex connector at the end of a power cord will make a dead hard drive even deader... with fireworks! I don't doubt it. But I prefer a hammer. A much more tactile (and satisfying) way of ensuring a bricked HDD doesn't find its way back into my spares pile... Plus it puts ruddy great dents on most sides, thus making it damn obvious that the HDA and PCB are completely buggered. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Nov 23 12:14:20 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:14:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <1322070718.12428.13.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> References: <1321016823.70603.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1322070718.12428.13.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Nov 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 05:07 -0800, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> I kinda had the opposite reaction. I figured that the whole "attaching mains power to data connectors" was a sort of rite of passage... something every geek has done at some point. I'd wager that most of us have some kind of EtherKiller or related device hanging around, if only for the shock value when someone else sees it. And, of course, for demonstrating the meaning of the phrase "magic smoke". > > I have a cable which consists of a UK mains plug, a length of > low-current mains cable... and a bare end. > > I use it for testing power supplies, specifically AC-DC "industrial" or > "embedded" PSUs with screw-terminal connectors. > >> Hint: a 4 pin molex connector at the end of a power cord will make a dead hard drive even deader... with fireworks! > > I don't doubt it. > > But I prefer a hammer. A much more tactile (and satisfying) way of > ensuring a bricked HDD doesn't find its way back into my spares pile... > Plus it puts ruddy great dents on most sides, thus making it damn > obvious that the HDA and PCB are completely buggered. I like to take them apart and salvage bits like the screws, spindle motor, magnets, platters and head assembly (the screws have a practical use, the others are for decorating the house with and/or art projects). Alexey From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 23 12:16:21 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:16:21 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a Hobby Board for sale (4" x 4.5" , 44 contacts, 1.56 on center contacts) wire wrap prototype board In-Reply-To: <4ECD2669.9000804@comcast.net> References: <4ECD2669.9000804@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4ECD3875.2010701@jetnet.ab.ca> Offhand I don't think I have seen any. Most are on .125 centers. You may be better off making a PCB. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 23 12:25:23 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:25:23 -0000 Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <35B68EDCBDED40EF859069C94B2D99EA@ANTONIOPC> Alexey Toptygin [alexeyt at freeshell.org] wrote: > On Wed, 23 Nov 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >> But I prefer a hammer. A much more tactile (and satisfying) way of >> ensuring a bricked HDD doesn't find its way back into my spares >> pile... Plus it puts ruddy great dents on most sides, thus making it >> damn obvious that the HDA and PCB are completely buggered. Someone I know on facebook posted photos the other day of a disk he shot (with a handgun). > I like to take them apart and salvage bits like the screws, spindle > motor, magnets, platters and head assembly (the screws have a > practical use, the others are for decorating the house with and/or > art projects). I like to keep the magnets. I've not found a use for the spindle motor: can you actually run it without the drive electronics? CD/DVD/FDD motors seem better for that. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 12:51:04 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:51:04 -0800 Subject: Anyone have a Hobby Board for sale (4" x 4.5" , 44 contacts, 1.56 on center contacts) wire wrap prototype board In-Reply-To: <4ECD2669.9000804@comcast.net> References: <4ECD2669.9000804@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Something like a Vector 3662-5? http://www.vectorelect.com/Product/Plugbord/Layout/3662-5%20Layout.pdf You can buy those new from the usual distributors for around $22. If you can use 6" long versions there are these for $12-$15: http://www.ebay.com/itm/150646274942 http://www.ebay.com/itm/150510185603 From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Nov 23 13:38:57 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 19:38:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <35B68EDCBDED40EF859069C94B2D99EA@ANTONIOPC> References: <35B68EDCBDED40EF859069C94B2D99EA@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Nov 2011, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Alexey Toptygin [alexeyt at freeshell.org] wrote: > >> I like to take them apart and salvage bits like the screws, spindle >> motor, magnets, platters and head assembly (the screws have a >> practical use, the others are for decorating the house with and/or >> art projects). > > I like to keep the magnets. I've not found a use for the spindle > motor: can you actually run it without the drive electronics? > CD/DVD/FDD motors seem better for that. I haven't tried, but I always assumed that I'd be able to get/build a new controller for it. It's a pretty vanilla synchromous motor IIUC. Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 23 14:55:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:55:34 -0800 Subject: Anyone have a Hobby Board for sale (4" x 4.5" , 44 contacts, 1.56 on center contacts) wire wrap prototype board In-Reply-To: References: <4ECD2669.9000804@comcast.net>, Message-ID: <4ECCED46.19090.FD0D01@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2011 at 10:51, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Nick Allen > wrote: > > > Something like a Vector 3662-5? > > http://www.vectorelect.com/Product/Plugbord/Layout/3662-5%20Layout.pdf > > You can buy those new from the usual distributors for around $22. > > If you can use 6" long versions there are these for $12-$15: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/150646274942 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/150510185603 Circuit specialists has the 6.5" x 4.5" boards in stock: http://www.web-tronics.com/pc407912.html About $13 for Q1; $10 for Q5. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 23 15:17:17 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 13:17:17 -0800 Subject: Phone # for Joe Rigdon? Message-ID: <4ECD62DD.6060000@brouhaha.com> Does anyone happen to have Joe Rigdon's phone number? I used to have it, but can't find it now. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 23 16:25:31 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:25:31 +0000 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Charlie Carothers Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 11:18 PM > Maybe what software development really needs is a language where the > comments *are* the code? ...and we come full circle. *That* was Knuth's point in creating Literate Programming. Just for the record, I made changes to TeX in the late 1990s to allow the use of larger fonts on the TOPS-20 operating system (which had been restricted to 128-character fonts by the usual use of 7-bit ASCII in text files). No bugs were introduced, and the sources in web were very good guides to the necessary changes. Neither tangle nor weave was unhappy with my changes. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Nov 23 16:33:05 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 14:33:05 -0800 Subject: HP 2116 bit needed In-Reply-To: <7a924b93-61ac-4e52-b576-fc53fa321230@email.android.com> References: <4ECC38A2.9060509@jetnet.ab.ca> <3042c2ef-ca3c-417b-b641-1e14ebb1cd89@email.android.com> <7a924b93-61ac-4e52-b576-fc53fa321230@email.android.com> Message-ID: <0E6CFDD1-D61D-4CCB-AD94-FDA636D6BA2B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Nov 23, at 6:53 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > Logic regulator is missing from both systems, yes. Memory regulator > is missing from the C. One arithmetic logic card is missing from > one system- but they should be pretty interchangeable. So I have a > full set for one running system. > > With the logic regulator card, the B would be functionally > complete. Thanks for the schematic. I've started transporting the > manual scans into a PCB design tool should it become necessary to > get a new board fabricated. I'd much prefer to find an original > though! In discussions about the 2116 a few years ago, a former list member referred Crisis Computer as a potential source for parts: http://www.crisis.com/ The web site lists stuff as far back as the 1000 series (2100 follow- ons). Slim chance perhaps, but might be worth asking. What about the 2160 and 2161 PSUs? It's conceivable they could use the same board(s). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 23 16:24:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:24:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 2116 bit needed In-Reply-To: <7a924b93-61ac-4e52-b576-fc53fa321230@email.android.com> from "Colin Eby" at Nov 23, 11 02:53:06 pm Message-ID: > With the logic regulator card, the B would be functionally complete. > Thanks for the schematic. I've started transporting the manual scans If the component density isn't too high (and I doubt it would be on a machine of this age), it's often possible to photocopy (or scan?) the track side of the PCB and use that as the track pattern for that side. Then it's just (!) a matter of working out where the tracks go on the otehr side, which isn't too bad given a good photo of the board and a scheamtic. > into a PCB design tool should it become necessary to get a new board > fabricated. I'd much prefer to find an origina l though! Sure... But presumably the board you make will be a plug-in replacement for the original. So if an orriginal does turn up you could put it where it belongs. All you've wasted is the time and components ot make the replica. you've not damaged the machine in any way. Sicen I suspect HP2116 parts are rare (that's not Ebay-RATW :-)). I think it's worth the effort ot make the replacement. If it were my machine that's what I'd do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 23 16:29:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:29:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <1322070718.12428.13.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 23, 11 05:51:58 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 05:07 -0800, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > I kinda had the opposite reaction. I figured that the whole "attaching mains power to data connectors" was a sort of rite of passage... something every geek has done at some point. I'd wager that most of us have some kind of EtherKiller or related dev ice hanging around, if only for the shock value when someone else sees it. And, of course, for demonstrating the meaning of the phrase "magic smoke". > > I have a cable which consists of a UK mains plug, a length of > low-current mains cable... and a bare end. That, and its relative with croc clips on non-plug end are geernally known as 'suicide leads' round here :-) Incidetnally, bare wire ends on a cable are known as 'universal connectors' (A friend of mine coined the term and it caught on). You might ask for a '3 pin DIN plug to universal conenctors cable' :-) > But I prefer a hammer. A much more tactile (and satisfying) way of > ensuring a bricked HDD doesn't find its way back into my spares pile... > Plus it puts ruddy great dents on most sides, thus making it damn > obvious that the HDA and PCB are completely buggered. I generaly remvoe any useful bits. Which includes any odd screws (Torx head, unusual threads, etc), the spindle motor, the magnets from the positioner, and even any useful chips form the PCB. At which point the drive is clearly not fucntional :-) It's rare for me to actualyl throw anything out, you never know what will come in handy later. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 23 16:34:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:34:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BOFH - lethal injection - Re: CMD CQD-220TM problems In-Reply-To: <35B68EDCBDED40EF859069C94B2D99EA@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Nov 23, 11 06:25:23 pm Message-ID: > I like to keep the magnets. I've not found a use for the spindle > motor: can you actually run it without the drive electronics? The spindle motor in most small HDDs is a polyphase thing, a bit like a stepper motor. Sometiems, particularly on older units, there are hall effect devices to detect the rotor position, I think many modern drives just feed the windins with the right waveforms and the rotor starts spinning. So yes, you need drvier electroncis, but it's not hard to design. > CD/DVD/FDD motors seem better for that. Actually, most modern-ish FDD motrs are similar to the HDD motors. I guess the big difference practically is that in many cases (although certainly nor all), the motor and its control electronics is on a separate PCB in a dloppy drive so you can extract the whole model and have soemthign that just needs power and an enable signal to get it to spin. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 16:44:11 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 17:44:11 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Huw Davies wrote: > On 23/11/2011, at 7:51 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> You must have a much better memory than most people... more than three years ago... > > I've got code sitting on a shelf in my study that I wrote nearly 40 years ago. Just for interest's sake I thought I'd see if I could understand it - the answer is no, mainly as I can't really read PDP-10 assembler any more :-( My very earliest efforts (34 years ago) are lost, but are in PET BASIC anyway, so historians and archivists can sleep well. > I looked at some slightly later stuff (probably 35 years old) written in BCPL - I can read and understand it but don't know why I wrote it that way. I guess I've learnt something about algorithms in the intervening time! The oldest works I still have copies of clock in around 30-32 years old and I would agree - comprehension is not an impediment, but I do occasionally scratch my head and try to remember *why* I chose that technique (and it reminds me how much I've learned over the years). -ethan From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Nov 23 17:15:47 2011 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:15:47 +0000 Subject: HP 2116 bit needed In-Reply-To: <0E6CFDD1-D61D-4CCB-AD94-FDA636D6BA2B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4ECC38A2.9060509@jetnet.ab.ca> <3042c2ef-ca3c-417b-b641-1e14ebb1cd89@email.android.com> <7a924b93-61ac-4e52-b576-fc53fa321230@email.android.com> <0E6CFDD1-D61D-4CCB-AD94-FDA636D6BA2B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1322090147.2742.28.camel@hp0> Guys, The original part would be the ideal -- and that's what I'm hoping for. But reality has already begun seeping in! Yes, I'm afraid I've already checked in with Crisis, and I'm in contact with the person who bought out their 21xx stock. It's not looking promising. Though a weekend trawl of their parts bin may yield something. Tony's right, of course. The next best thing is to work up a replacement board. I've already started doing that. I've asked around for photographs from people I know have the 'B' model. Through a combination of photos, schematics published in the old maintenance manual, and Brent's schematics for the C, I should be able to get a working replacement fabricated. An original is still preferred of course, and if anyone out there has one available, I'd love to hear from them. The 2160/61 is a thought. And I do have access to one. I believe the design is substantially different though. The part numbers certainly are. I shall have to peel the covers back on it when I'm out at Bletchley this weekend and compare it's bits with the maintenance manual schematic. It's always possible a board with turn up buried in the uncatalogued collection somewhere. But I'm not optimistic. Anyone familiar with the TNMOC collection will appreciate how challenging it can be to do an exhaustive search at the moment. I've already done a fairly broad hunt. I'm working on sorting/cataloguing all the unmanaged HP gear as part of the process, but most of what I've discovered so far is from the next generation of systems > 1970. The IO cards may be usable, but the power supply design changes pretty substantially. On Wed, 2011-11-23 at 14:33 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Nov 23, at 6:53 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > > > Logic regulator is missing from both systems, yes. Memory regulator > > is missing from the C. One arithmetic logic card is missing from > > one system- but they should be pretty interchangeable. So I have a > > full set for one running system. > > > > With the logic regulator card, the B would be functionally > > complete. Thanks for the schematic. I've started transporting the > > manual scans into a PCB design tool should it become necessary to > > get a new board fabricated. I'd much prefer to find an original > > though! > > In discussions about the 2116 a few years ago, a former list member > referred Crisis Computer as a potential source for parts: > http://www.crisis.com/ > > The web site lists stuff as far back as the 1000 series (2100 follow- > ons). Slim chance perhaps, but might be worth asking. > > What about the 2160 and 2161 PSUs? It's conceivable they could use > the same board(s). > -- Colin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 23 17:41:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 15:41:54 -0800 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: , <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com>, <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4ECD1442.27729.1955542@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2011 at 22:25, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Charlie Carothers > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 11:18 PM > > > Maybe what software development really needs is a language where the > > comments *are* the code? > > ...and we come full circle. > > *That* was Knuth's point in creating Literate Programming. It won't happen. COBOL was one of the earliest "natural language" HLLs. While "ADD 1 TO ITERATION-COUNT" or even "INSPECT INPUT-STRING REPLACING CHARACTERS BY "X" BEFORE INITIAL SPACE." is clear enough, it doesn't give the high level view of what's being done--and how it's being done--and most important, why. There were many other attempts at "natural" language programming; all failed ultimately. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 23 18:31:33 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 16:31:33 -0800 Subject: Phone # for Joe Rigdon? In-Reply-To: <4ECD62DD.6060000@brouhaha.com> References: <4ECD62DD.6060000@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ECD9065.1070208@brouhaha.com> Never mind, I found it. Thanks! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 23 18:40:21 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 19:40:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201111240040.TAA16641@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Maybe what software development really needs is a language where the >> comments *are* the code? > ...and we come full circle. > *That* was Knuth's point in creating Literate Programming. I find that doubtful; if so, he botched it far worse than I would have thought anyone of his skill and knowledge could. Web code - or, at least, what web code I've seen - is definitely divided into `code' and `comments'. (Web does a better job encouraging the programmer to keep the comments next to the code than many languages, but it's a long way from not having any distinction between the two.) I thought "the code _is_ the comment" was (much of) the point of COBOL, actually. It came closer than anything else I've seen, at any rate. It failed badly, not at "the code is the comment" per se but at the implied "the code doesn't need any additional comments", largely because to the extent that the code is the comment, the comment just echos the code. At the very best, that documents what and how; it cannot say why, and it cannot say what or how at any level other than the detailed one the code is written at. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 23 18:56:52 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 19:56:52 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4ECD9654.3030600@telegraphics.com.au> On 23/11/11 2:18 AM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > On 11/22/2011 2:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Jason McBrien wrote: >> > I've found the following to be true: >> > 1 - If you wrote the code, even if it's undocumented, you are >> > going to be likely to know what it does when reviewed later on >> >> You must have a much better memory than most people. My experience, >> which matches that of every programmer I've spoken to about this, is >> that any code I wrote but last looked more than three years ago takes >> very nearly as much effort to understand as code of comparable quality >> by another author but which I've never seen before. >> >> That means that I find it worthwhile to document code well even if I >> think that the only audience for that documentation is my future self. >> > Yes, indeed! I can well remember at times looking at code I wrote only 6 > months previously and going "Who wrote this mess?" ;-) or at least going > "I wonder what this does?". In recent years I've been known to claim, > perhaps somewhat facetiously, that the comments are worth more than the > code. Maybe what software development really needs is a language where > the comments *are* the code? When someone says "I want a programming language in which I need only say what I wish done," give him a lollipop. --Alan Perlis From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 23 22:36:00 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:36:00 -0600 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <20111110204958.301802cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4EBA5E94.7821.A0D7E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4EBA9349.32648.16EBCC4@cclist.sydex.com> <201111100413.XAA03659@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4095B61C-8240-4DB6-BF54-E795A50448E3@gmail.com> <20111110204958.301802cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201111240438.pAO4cYnM062745@billy.ezwind.net> At 01:49 PM 11/10/2011, Jochen Kunz wrote: >Incandescent replacements based on LEDs are a poor choice. Incandescent >lamps work better the hotter they get. So the fixtures for incandescent >lamps are made in a way that isolates as much heat as possible. This is >absolutely contrary to the needs of LEDs. LEDs need to stay cool. A greenie friend of mine recently put an LED replacement bulb in her garage, not far from the remote control garage door opener. It began to malfunction in odd ways, sometimes working, mostly not. Eventually a electrician figured out the LED bulb was causing enough radio interference to disrupt the remote control receiver. - John From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Nov 23 12:58:18 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:58:18 -0600 Subject: Anyone have a Hobby Board for sale (4" x 4.5" , 44 contacts, 0.156 on center contacts) wire wrap prototype board In-Reply-To: <4ECD3875.2010701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4ECD3875.2010701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4ECD424A.5030106@comcast.net> oops ment 0.156" centers From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 03:06:47 2011 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 10:06:47 +0100 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 23:44, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Huw Davies wrote: >> On 23/11/2011, at 7:51 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> You must have a much better memory than most people... more than three years ago... >> >> I've got code sitting on a shelf in my study that I wrote nearly 40 years ago. Just for interest's sake I thought I'd see if I could understand it - the answer is no, mainly as I can't really read PDP-10 assembler any more :-( > > My very earliest efforts (34 years ago) are lost, but are in PET BASIC > anyway, so historians and archivists can sleep well. > >> I looked at some slightly later stuff (probably 35 years old) written in BCPL - I can read and understand it but don't know why I wrote it that way. I guess I've learnt something about algorithms in the intervening time! > > The oldest works I still have copies of clock in around 30-32 years > old and I would agree - comprehension is not an impediment, but I do > occasionally scratch my head and try to remember *why* I chose that > technique (and it reminds me how much I've learned over the years). > > -ethan I dug up the oldest source I could find - it's probably the first FORTRAN program I wrote, from the early eighties. It's not a big program, it's for reading CP/M floppies on a minicomputer. There aren't many comments, but those that are there are important. I'm glad they're there. Commenting everything would have been totally overkill though, the code is easy to understand because the few comments are in the right place. Without them it would have been more work to understand the code. I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing there. There seems to be about 10 to 15 lines of code per comment line. What's important is that the comments describe non-obvious things (if you only have the source and not, e.g. for this program, the documentation for the CP/M filesystem): IF (USER .NE. 229) THEN ;% -- 229 = E5 hex (non-existent entry) WRITE (1,11)USER, NAME, TYP, EXTENT, RECUSED ENDIF -Tor From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 24 15:02:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 21:02:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <201111240438.pAO4cYnM062745@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust" at Nov 23, 11 10:36:00 pm Message-ID: > Eventually a electrician figured out the LED bulb was causing enough > radio interference to disrupt the remote control receiver. However, I seem to remembner reading that old filament bulbs can cause TF interference too. Some valve radios over here used a low-powered ligth bulb as the dropping resisotr in the series heater chain [1] and when the bulb got old, yuo'd get interference on the output. Nothing to do with an intermitany break in the filament, IIRC the effect was somethign to do with the evapourated metal from the filament on the inside of the glass (which is why it only occured with old, blackened bulbs) collecting electrons from the filament. But there was more to it than that. I will see if I can find the articles. For some reason the term 'Barkhausen effect' is coming to mind. But that may be a collision ib my hash tables. [1] One UK magazine actually published a design for a combined radio and table lamp (!).. Yes, the lamp bulb was the heater dropper resistor. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 24 16:17:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 15:17:53 -0700 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>, Rich Alderson writes: > From: Charlie Carothers > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 11:18 PM > > > Maybe what software development really needs is a language where the > > comments *are* the code? > > ...and we come full circle. > > *That* was Knuth's point in creating Literate Programming. Then it was completely lost on the audience (including me). See for why I hardly write comments anymore and still have readable and understandable code. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 24 17:40:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 15:40:40 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: <201111240438.pAO4cYnM062745@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust" at Nov 23, 11 10:36:00 pm, Message-ID: <4ECE6578.28826.17E6976@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2011 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote: > For some reason the term 'Barkhausen effect' is coming to mind. But > that may be a collision ib my hash tables. Isn't that a magnetically-induced thing related to crystal dislocations under a changing magnetic field? i.e., Barkhausen noise. I also think of early HF oscillators produced by placing the grid of a triode at a positive potential relative to the cathode and the plate at a negative potential. Called "Barkhausen" or "electron orbit" oscillators. Also related are oddball oscillations in tetrode HF power amplifiers, I think. Or it could be the Thanksgiving Day (today in the US) liquor talking... --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 24 18:27:26 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 19:27:26 -0500 Subject: Literate programming is too much work! - Re: TeX - Knuth - Software quality - Re: Bug-Free Software, In-Reply-To: References: <20111121022738.GA15657@brevard.conman.org> <4EC9BFAD.3010704@telegraphics.com.au> <20111121060300.GB15657@brevard.conman.org> <4ECA490D.6090508@telegraphics.com.au> <4ECC0B62.9060502@brouhaha.com> <4ECC9E3D.80406@tx.rr.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4ECEE0EE.8080602@telegraphics.com.au> On 24/11/11 5:17 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA039882 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>, > Rich Alderson writes: > >> From: Charlie Carothers >> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 11:18 PM >> >>> Maybe what software development really needs is a language where the >>> comments *are* the code? >> >> ...and we come full circle. >> >> *That* was Knuth's point in creating Literate Programming. > > Then it was completely lost on the audience (including me). > > See for why I hardly write > comments anymore and still have readable and understandable code. Apart from those who write crystalline pearls of clarity which work forever and never need to be touched again, the vast bulk of code spends most of its life in maintenance, and that rarely by the people who wrote it. (Hmmmm and have you tested that your code is "readable and understandable" to those who come later? Do they agree? What about the rationales for methods that simply aren't visible in the code?) If you don't comment it, do you at least document it? Doxygen/Javadoc/whatever would be better than nothing, to maintainers. Apart from the apparently controversial commenting "question", "The Elements of Programming Style" (op. cit.) deals thoroughly with issues of readability and comprehension in any language. --T From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 22:27:56 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 21:27:56 -0700 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: <3CA6295584B94D00B381B292C69BB762@Pc12> References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> <3CA6295584B94D00B381B292C69BB762@Pc12> Message-ID: Thank You. Now to find my Cyrillic to English Dictionary!! Cheers. Tom P On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 2:31 AM, nierveze wrote: > hello,finally > here are the docs (I think,as there is no picture of the machine itself) > http://www.emuverse.ru/**downloads/computers/E-85/L%**20Juriy/ > and here more,with the schematics of the video > http://www.emuverse.ru/**downloads/computers/E-85/ > best regards > alain > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom publix" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:42 PM > Subject: Re: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 > > > Yeah!! I was always wondering if they copied the exact electrical specs >> of >> the Dec machines or they were simple "work-a-likes" maybe software >> compatible and able to run Dec software but not interchanging parts. >> >> I only bring this up as I see a Russian Pro-350 on ebay right now: >> 180760525391 >> >> It's relevant to me as I picked up a Russian DEC Pro clone a couple of >> years ago (almost identical to the one on Ebay now) but, unfortunately, >> it won't power up. I always wondered if the Russian hard drives and >> floppys might work in my DEC Pro. >> >> I think my Russian machine may need a new power supply but with no >> docs >> or schematics, the chances of resurrecting it or at least finding the >> fault, appear to be slim and none. >> >> Cheers >> >> Tom >> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Dave McGuire >> wrote: >> >> On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >>>> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >>>> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >>>> version with EIS. >>>> >>>> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. >>>> >>>> >>> Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them >>> having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that >>> there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything >>> around them. >>> >>> I would love for that to not be the case! >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire >>> New Kensington, PA >>> >>> > From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Nov 25 05:36:58 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 12:36:58 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> <3CA6295584B94D00B381B292C69BB762@Pc12> Message-ID: hello, here you will find correspondance tables for the chips http://ganswijk.home.xs4all.nl/chipdir/soviet/index.htm and as dictionnary I currently use "the comprehensive russian computer dictionnary" from Drucker and Avrutin isbn 0-7695-0074-9 you can find it on the web... enjoy russian computers!!! best regards a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom publix" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 5:27 AM Subject: Re: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 > Thank You. Now to find my Cyrillic to English Dictionary!! > > Cheers. > > Tom P > > > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 2:31 AM, nierveze > wrote: > >> hello,finally >> here are the docs (I think,as there is no picture of the machine itself) >> http://www.emuverse.ru/**downloads/computers/E-85/L%**20Juriy/ >> and here more,with the schematics of the video >> http://www.emuverse.ru/**downloads/computers/E-85/ >> best regards >> alain >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom publix" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:42 PM >> Subject: Re: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 >> >> >> Yeah!! I was always wondering if they copied the exact electrical specs >>> of >>> the Dec machines or they were simple "work-a-likes" maybe software >>> compatible and able to run Dec software but not interchanging parts. >>> >>> I only bring this up as I see a Russian Pro-350 on ebay right now: >>> 180760525391 >>> >>> It's relevant to me as I picked up a Russian DEC Pro clone a couple >>> of >>> years ago (almost identical to the one on Ebay now) but, >>> unfortunately, >>> it won't power up. I always wondered if the Russian hard drives and >>> floppys might work in my DEC Pro. >>> >>> I think my Russian machine may need a new power supply but with no >>> docs >>> or schematics, the chances of resurrecting it or at least finding >>> the >>> fault, appear to be slim and none. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Dave McGuire >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 11/17/2011 10:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> >>>> I've seen it mentioned before on the list, but I'm wondering if >>>>> anyone here has taken one of the Soviet PDP-11 CPU clones and done >>>>> anything with them. In particular, I'm curious about the 64-pin DIP >>>>> version with EIS. >>>>> >>>>> I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Me too; I've always been curious about them. I seem to recall them >>>> having been discussed here a year or two ago, with the conclusion that >>>> there wasn't enough documentation available to actually build anything >>>> around them. >>>> >>>> I would love for that to not be the case! >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dave McGuire >>>> New Kensington, PA >>>> >>>> >> From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Nov 25 07:59:55 2011 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:59:55 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP-11 clones, was Re: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4EC5D21E.7080400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20111125135955.GA11239@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Tom publix wrote: > Yeah!! I was always wondering if they copied the exact electrical specs of > the Dec machines or they were simple "work-a-likes" maybe software > compatible and able to run Dec software but not interchanging parts. > > I only bring this up as I see a Russian Pro-350 on ebay right now: > 180760525391 > > It's relevant to me as I picked up a Russian DEC Pro clone a couple of > years ago (almost identical to the one on Ebay now) but, unfortunately, > it won't power up. I always wondered if the Russian hard drives and > floppys might work in my DEC Pro. > > I think my Russian machine may need a new power supply but with no docs > or schematics, the chances of resurrecting it or at least finding the > fault, appear to be slim and none. > > Cheers > > Tom > Where are you lacated Tom? I've repaired an older russian machine, an Elektronika E60 which is almost an 11/03 with a Q-Bus. The reason why you can't use DEC Parts in there is that all the connectors are in metric raster. The russian cards are approx an inch longer having alomst the same width, but the connectors wouldn't fit. (maybe it its possible to youse a dec card with an adapter that is 1 inch long :-) ) I live in germany, if you send me the PSU I'll repair it, think there are no schematics neccessary. Regards, Holm BTW: urgently searching for the 64 pin connector pinout on an Emulex CS08 since I don't have the distribution box CP08 that should have 3 switches neccessary to configure the unit... -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 10:04:35 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 10:04:35 -0600 Subject: Surviving Pong cabinets - UK? Message-ID: <4ECFBC93.4080202@gmail.com> Query which got bounced via the NMoC mailing list - some journalist is looking for somewhere to play on a Pong cab in the UK. Does anyone keep tabs on surviving examples? I don't remember ever seeing one there over the years, but it's hard to believe that there are none left. The message just said cabinet; I'm assuming they're after an upright, but maybe the cocktail version would be acceptable too. Perhaps even a faithful replica of either would do the job as well. cheers Jules From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 10:13:21 2011 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:13:21 +0000 Subject: Surviving Pong cabinets - UK? In-Reply-To: <4ECFBC93.4080202@gmail.com> References: <4ECFBC93.4080202@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, But I have a Atari cocktail cabinet Missile Command game if that helps... Ta, Andy On 25 November 2011 16:04, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Query which got bounced via the NMoC mailing list - some journalist is > looking for somewhere to play on a Pong cab in the UK. > > Does anyone keep tabs on surviving examples? I don't remember ever seeing > one there over the years, but it's hard to believe that there are none left. > > The message just said cabinet; I'm assuming they're after an upright, but > maybe the cocktail version would be acceptable too. Perhaps even a faithful > replica of either would do the job as well. > > cheers > > Jules > > From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Nov 25 10:21:56 2011 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 17:21:56 +0100 Subject: VHDL PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <4EC5A122.7060200@hachti.de> <4EC55FB6.5249.2A6FDD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20111125162156.GA11847@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Adam Sampson wrote: > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > I've seen them offered a lot on eBay for very attractive prices. > > http://www.evita.lt/ lists KR1801VM1s for 1.01???, along with assorted > support chips. I'd definitely be interested in a construction project... > > -- > Adam Sampson Im interrested in something like this too... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Nov 25 12:09:56 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 13:09:56 -0500 Subject: Christmas cleanup! Message-ID: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> Hey everyone! I need to raise some money for gifts this year so I'm cleaning out some of the systems I don't play with any more. Terms: * I'm in Bloomington, IN (47408) * Everything works as of the last time I turned them on * Things that are shipped: Payment via paypal + actual costs for shipping * Things that aren't shipped: Cash only, and I can meet within a 50 mile radius or so. That means the south side of Indy, Terre Haute, etc. * If it seems too high, make me an offer. Of course, if it seems to low you can offer too :) * Sun Ultra 5 ($40, will ship) 333 MHz UltraSPARC IIi, 256M RAM, CDROM, Floppy, Needs ATA HD * IBM RS/6000 43p 7248 ($20, will ship) 133 MHz PPC 604, 96M RAM, 2.2G SCSI Disk, CDROM * DEC VT-420 ($25) Amber, Keyboard, 2 MMJ Ports * DEC VT-220 ($25) Green, Keyboard, DB25 Port * DECserver 200/MC ($25, will ship) 8 db25 ports * AUI 10BaseT Tranceivers ($1 each, will ship) 10 available, 12" cable * 21" NeXT MegaPixel Color ($25) Model N4005A, 13w3 connector * Kaypro 4/84 ($150) a: 5.25", b: 3.5", original disks for: cp/m 2.2g, basic-80, microplan, c-basic, datastar, reportstar, calcstar, wordstar, mailmerge, s-basic, suprterm,dbase ii; looks like a pretty full set of manuals. I have the 2nd 5.25" drive if you want it as well. Broken right hand keyboard latch. * Amiga 1000 System ($350) In original box with manuals. 256K expansion, 1M side expansion, kickstart/workbench 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 (originals and copies, some disks fail due to age, but I could boot 1.1 and 1.3). Zenith color composite monitor, and misc software. * Apple IIgs System ($100) 3.5" and 5.25" drives. System 5.0.4 software plus lots of educational stuff. 12" color monitor. Owner's reference and getting started guide. * 22 8" floppies ($10, will ship) If they weren't so big they'd make great stocking stuffers. Maybe they can be hung outside the stocking? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 25 13:36:36 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 11:36:36 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Desk-fax interest ? References: <000301ccaaaf$6fa206b0$4ee61410$@corderoy@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Just forwarding this to the list in case there might be some interest here. These are old 1950s-era fax machines, not 1990s. Apparently they are similar to the ones I present here (which is why he contacted me): http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html They are located in Northern Ireland. Begin forwarded message: > From: "cliff.corderoy" > Date: 2011 November 24 5:46:14 AM PST (CA) > To: > Subject: Desk-fax interest ? > > Hello Brent, > I have three Creed Desk-fax machines in my garage and wish to > let them go. Is there any interest in these machines ? > As they are so heavy the transport cost perhaps are higher > than their value ! > regards, > Cliff. ?ham radio callsign Gi4CZW. > 028 66329494. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 25 14:32:01 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:32:01 -0600 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: <201111240438.pAO4cYnM062745@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201111252033.pAPKWtq0098181@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:02 PM 11/24/2011, you wrote: >> Eventually a electrician figured out the LED bulb was causing enough >> radio interference to disrupt the remote control receiver. > >However, I seem to remembner reading that old filament bulbs can cause TF >interference too. The symptoms drove my friend a bit crazy... the garage door opener would work when approaching the house (before the light was on) but wouldn't work to close the garage door once inside (and the light was on). - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 25 14:59:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 20:59:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: <4ECE6578.28826.17E6976@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 24, 11 03:40:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 24 Nov 2011 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote: > > > For some reason the term 'Barkhausen effect' is coming to mind. But > > that may be a collision ib my hash tables. > > Isn't that a magnetically-induced thing related to crystal > dislocations under a changing magnetic field? i.e., Barkhausen > noise. I think that's right. A simple-ish demonstration of this (which I have done) is to take a mild steel bar, wind a couil on it and connect said coil to the input of an audio amplifier. Then magnetise the bar in the traditional way by stronking it with one pole of a permanent magnet. You get the Barkhausen noise as you stroke the magnet until the bar is fully magnetised. Of course if you tehn remagnetise it the opposit way (by strokign it with the other pole of the magnet) you can get the noise again. > > I also think of early HF oscillators produced by placing the grid of > a triode at a positive potential relative to the cathode and the > plate at a negative potential. Called "Barkhausen" or "electron > orbit" oscillators. I wnder if that's the effect. The metal film depositied on the inside of the glass could become negatively charged due to electronics hitting it. > Also related are oddball oscillations in tetrode HF power amplifiers, > I think. There's the dynatron oscilalator (nothign to do with the UK radio company of that name AFAIK) which depends on the negative resistance part of the Ia .vs. Va curve for a normal tetrode. The beam tetrode was sometimes called a 'kinkles tetrode' over here, because it doesn't have this dip in the chracteristic curve, and the 'KT' in valve numebrs like KT66 and KT88 stands for 'Kinklrss Tetrode'.Needless to say those can't be used as dynstron oscillators. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 25 15:55:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:55:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables Message-ID: I suspect many of use have this sort of problem, and I'd be interested in hearing any solutions to it. Moat classic computers have various little bits that go with them, in particular cables and connector adaptors. In some cases these are specific to one particular type of machine (e.g. the user prot adaptor for the Acor Cabridge Workstation), others are rather more generic (the same cassette lead fits all TRS-80 M1, M3, M4 and M100 machins, along with the IBM 5150), and still others are totally generic (HPIB cables, 'kettle leads', etc). I find storing thes parts, partircularly the 'somewhat generic' ones is a problem, and I can never find what I need. You cna't categorise them by machine (becase, for example, a TRS-80 M1 RS232 cable is specific to that machine (it plugs into an esdge conenctor on the EI), the pritner cable also fits the M3 and M4 machines, the cassette lead also fits the IBM PC), you vcan;'t realy do it by function (a DBd25-DB25 lead could be used for several purposes, not only RS232), and so on. Any ideas? I am getting fed up with having to re-make a cable which I know I made a couple years earlier, but for a different machine, and which I now can't find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 25 15:40:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:40:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fwd: Desk-fax interest ? In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Nov 25, 11 11:36:36 am Message-ID: > > Just forwarding this to the list in case there might be some interest =20 > here. > > These are old 1950s-era fax machines, not 1990s. Apparently they are =20 > similar to the ones I present here (which is why he contacted me): > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html > > They are located in Northern Ireland. Drat! Had they been closer (as in I could have collected them), I would have been somewhat interested. There's a Rank Xerox RX400 Telecopier going on my bench soon. This is a 1970's vintage analogue fax machine. Alas mine is missing a few parts, including the telepgone line coupling unit, but I have the service manual. This is mostly a boardswpper guide, but better than most with an explanation of how the boards interconenct, what the signals are, tetc. It also includes a simplified scheamtic of the (misisng) line coupler. The machine is an interesing mix of discrete transsitors, op-amps (709s in 14 pin DIL packages) and a custom MOS IC (which seems to be the control logic, drum motor PLL, etc). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 25 16:16:39 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:16:39 -0800 Subject: 3.3V/5V level shifting (was Re: 4000 Series CMOS Parts?) In-Reply-To: References: <4ECE6578.28826.17E6976@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 24, 11 03:40:40 pm, Message-ID: <4ECFA347.20085.131837C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2011 at 20:59, Tony Duell wrote: > There's the dynatron oscilalator (nothign to do with the UK radio > company of that name AFAIK) which depends on the negative resistance > part of the Ia .vs. Va curve for a normal tetrode. The beam tetrode > was sometimes called a 'kinkles tetrode' over here, because it doesn't > have this dip in the chracteristic curve, and the 'KT' in valve > numebrs like KT66 and KT88 stands for 'Kinklrss Tetrode'.Needless to > say those can't be used as dynstron oscillators. Found a Wiki reference to "Barkhausen-Kurz" tube: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkhausen-Kurz_tube and found a mention of same in an old (pre-war) electronics text. Apparently if you add some tuned circuits to a Barkhausen oscillator, it's called a "Gill-Morell" oscillator. Same Barkhausen as the Barkhausen effect, however. Said text also mentioned that the best oscillation was obtained from triodes with circular (versus oval or rectangular) elements, which figures. Even has a practical circuit using type 76 triodes. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 25 16:57:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:57:22 -0800 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2011 at 21:55, Tony Duell wrote: > Any ideas? I am getting fed up with having to re-make a cable which I > know I made a couple years earlier, but for a different machine, and > which I now can't find. I keep a wall-mounted pegboard on which I hang non-duplicate cables, each with a tag attached to it that tells its funciton. Duplicates are squirreled away in boxes where I can forget about them. --Chuck From pinball at telus.net Fri Nov 25 11:42:38 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:42:38 -0800 Subject: Surviving Pong cabinets - UK? In-Reply-To: <4ECFBC93.4080202@gmail.com> References: <4ECFBC93.4080202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ECFD38E.5070202@telus.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Query which got bounced via the NMoC mailing list - some journalist is > looking for somewhere to play on a Pong cab in the UK. > > Does anyone keep tabs on surviving examples? I don't remember ever > seeing one there over the years, but it's hard to believe that there > are none left. > > The message just said cabinet; I'm assuming they're after an upright, > but maybe the cocktail version would be acceptable too. Perhaps even a > faithful replica of either would do the job as well. > > cheers > > Jules > > Hi Jules, That is my business - restoring old arcade games - and we have a PONG in our stock (Canada), plus have shipped some to Europe. If your reporter wants to email me I'll see what I can do to help. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 25 19:28:32 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:28:32 -0700 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > [...] Duplicates [of cables] > are squirreled away in boxes where I can forget about them. Over the years I've accumulated a huge number of power cords and a variety of SCSI and serial cables. Since I have cats, I buy cat litter in large plastic buckets. These make for great storage of cables once the cat litter has been used up. They come with lids that are reusable and they're made from white plastic so I can write on them with a sharpie to say what's in them. They have lids that allow them to be stacked and each one has a swinging handle as well. They work great for storing rarely accessed stuff like this in a space efficient manner. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 19:54:21 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 20:54:21 -0500 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9843E12C-D6FF-4583-9C1F-FA10CF784B0C@gmail.com> On Nov 25, 2011, at 20:28, Richard wrote: > > In article <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36 at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> [...] Duplicates [of cables] >> are squirreled away in boxes where I can forget about them. > > Over the years I've accumulated a huge number of power cords and a > variety of SCSI and serial cables. Oh yeah, power cables. I have so many and forget that other people don't; sometimes I'll go somewhere and don't bring the cord and get weird looks when I act surprised that my hosts don't have spare computer cords. Interestingly enough, we got a new coffee percolator recently that has an IEC cord. That's very convenient, because replacements for the old Farberware ones were getting hard to find. I understand, though, that this is common practice in Europe for tea kettles? > Since I have cats, I buy cat litter in large plastic buckets. These > make for great storage of cables once the cat litter has been used up. > They come with lids that are reusable and they're made from white > plastic so I can write on them with a sharpie to say what's in them. > They have lids that allow them to be stacked and each one has a > swinging handle as well. They work great for storing rarely accessed > stuff like this in a space efficient manner. I've taken a liking to the Sterilite drawers that you can buy from Target relatively cheaply in stacks of three. They're stackable beyond that (up to at least six comfortably) and come in a variety of cheerful colors. I've got bins for power cables, power strips, USB, Ethernet, serial, ribbon and lots of other categories. -Dave From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 23:49:09 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:49:09 -0600 Subject: VCFMW6 Leftover Shirts Message-ID: Now that we've all recovered from Turkey Coma and are thinking about the next holiday(s) to come, perhaps the geek in your life (that's ok if that's you) would like a rare, soon-to-be-collectable, highly fashionable souvenir T-shirt from the bygone Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 6! Here's the current list of sizes still available and links to some pics (should be updated fairly regularly:) http://chiclassiccomp.org/vcfshirts.html Shirts are $15 including shipping within the continental US. Contact me for international rates. Thanks and we hope to see you in person next year! From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Nov 26 06:02:45 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:02:45 +0000 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <9843E12C-D6FF-4583-9C1F-FA10CF784B0C@gmail.com> References: <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36@cclist.sydex.com> <9843E12C-D6FF-4583-9C1F-FA10CF784B0C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ED0D565.4090305@wickensonline.co.uk> On 26/11/11 01:54, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 25, 2011, at 20:28, Richard wrote: > >> In article<4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36 at cclist.sydex.com>, >> "Chuck Guzis" writes: >> >>> [...] Duplicates [of cables] >>> are squirreled away in boxes where I can forget about them. >> Over the years I've accumulated a huge number of power cords and a >> variety of SCSI and serial cables. > Oh yeah, power cables. I have so many and forget that other people don't; sometimes I'll go somewhere and don't bring the cord and get weird looks when I act surprised that my hosts don't have spare computer cords. > > Interestingly enough, we got a new coffee percolator recently that has an IEC cord. That's very convenient, because replacements for the old Farberware ones were getting hard to find. I understand, though, that this is common practice in Europe for tea kettles? > > IEC leads are ubiquitous in the UK for appliances with a significant power draw (the smaller figure-of-eight leads do for lower power use). Slang in the UK for an IEC lead is a 'kettle lead' - clearly that name didn't come about by chance ;) Mark. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Nov 26 08:05:33 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 06:05:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: S-100 6502 CPU board Message-ID: <1322316333.15068.YahooMailClassic@web180207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I am preparing to get some S-100 6502 CPU board PCBs manufactured for the N8VEM and S100computers.com builders. These are CPU bus master only (no TMI circuitry) and include provisions for a 4K boot ROM. There is no onboard SRAM or other IO. The board includes a large prototyping area for builder customization. Assuming we can get 20 solid board builder commitments, I will place a PCB manufacturing order in the next few weeks. Please contact me by email if you are interested in participating. This is a hobbyist board built by hobbyists for hobbyists. The PCBs will be $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%206502%20CPU%20board http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgFUeJdO7-E Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From chrise at pobox.com Sat Nov 26 11:58:11 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:58:11 -0600 Subject: APC 6808 EXORBUS board docs? Message-ID: <20111126175811.GB27867@n0jcf.net> I'm looking for any documentation that might be around for APC Automation Products Company Microprocessor, PCB ASSY 0002-3768-151 which is a Motorola EXORBUS CPU board with the following goodies on it, 6808 CPU (w/ 4.000 MHz xtal) (2) 6821 PIA (4) 2716 EPROM M58725 2Kx8 SRAM 6840 timer 6850 ACIA there's a bipolar PROM too which is probably used as an address decoder of some sort. These appear to have been offered as an OEM product for integration into customer's designs rather than being some custom board for a specific purpose. Most parts are dated '83, '84. I have several of them. Any info about jumpers, address decoding or certainly schematics would be greatly appreciated! Chris -- Chris Elmquist From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 26 12:01:46 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 18:01:46 -0000 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <4ED0D565.4090305@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36@cclist.sydex.com> <9843E12C-D6FF-4583-9C1F-FA10CF784B0C@gmail.com> <4ED0D565.4090305@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <032a01ccac65$77febf80$67fc3e80$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Wickens > Sent: 26 November 2011 12:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Storing cables > > On 26/11/11 01:54, David Riley wrote: > > On Nov 25, 2011, at 20:28, Richard wrote: > > > >> In article<4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36 at cclist.sydex.com>, > >> "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> > >>> [...] Duplicates [of cables] > >>> are squirreled away in boxes where I can forget about them. > >> Over the years I've accumulated a huge number of power cords and a > >> variety of SCSI and serial cables. > > Oh yeah, power cables. I have so many and forget that other people don't; > sometimes I'll go somewhere and don't bring the cord and get weird looks > when I act surprised that my hosts don't have spare computer cords. > > > > Interestingly enough, we got a new coffee percolator recently that has an > IEC cord. That's very convenient, because replacements for the old > Farberware ones were getting hard to find. I understand, though, that this is > common practice in Europe for tea kettles? > > > > > > IEC leads are ubiquitous in the UK for appliances with a significant power draw > (the smaller figure-of-eight leads do for lower power use). > > Slang in the UK for an IEC lead is a 'kettle lead' - clearly that name didn't come > about by chance ;) > > Mark. I went into a hardware shop recently and asked for an IEC lead. I got blank looks until I said "you know, a kettle lead", then they knew immediately what I wanted :-) Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 26 13:23:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 19:23:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 25, 11 02:57:22 pm Message-ID: > > On 25 Nov 2011 at 21:55, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Any ideas? I am getting fed up with having to re-make a cable which I > > know I made a couple years earlier, but for a different machine, and > > which I now can't find. > > I keep a wall-mounted pegboard on which I hang non-duplicate cables, That's not a bad idea :-). Although it won't work for me becuase just about al lthe walls here are covered in bookshelves (no, replacing those boosk with e-books is not an option). > each with a tag attached to it that tells its funciton. Duplicates Yes, that was a second quesito nthat I forgot last night -- identifyign the cables. Some are obvious (a mains plug to IEC 320 socket is going to e wired the normal way, a BNC to RCA phono plug is also obvious [1]. But a DB25 to DB25 could be one of dozens of wirelists [2]. Perhaps I should put a number on each cable and keep a book of the wirelists (and hope I don't loose the book) :-)). [1] FOr ome unknown reason that cable grows legs. They're commonly needed around here to connect compostie monitors to various amchines, and I must have made at least 20 over the years. I can never find one when I need it. [2] Worse 'craqy wirelist' I came across. A VGA (or so) monitor with a DE15 socket on the back for the video input. It was supplied with a cabvel with DE15 plugs on each end. What nobody told me was that the DE15 on the monitor did not have the normal 'VGA' pinout, the cable was cross-connected so the other end would plug into a VGA socket. The only differnce between the 2 ends of the cable was that the isulation between the pins (not the moulded plug hood, but the bit inside the metal shell was black at one end, white at the other. That led me a merry dance... > are squirreled away in boxes where I can forget about them. Of course for some cables you may need several at the same time. The obvious oen is mains 'kettle leads', if you want to power up the machine, monitor, disk drive unit, logic analyser, etc. I often need 3 or 4 HPIB cables at th same time too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 26 13:37:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 19:37:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 25, 11 06:28:32 pm Message-ID: > > [...] Duplicates [of cables] > > are squirreled away in boxes where I can forget about them. > > Over the years I've accumulated a huge number of power cords and a > variety of SCSI and serial cables. Err yes... Mains leads particularly. I have those everywhere. I keep a couple of spare ones plugged into turned-off sockets on my workbench (UK mains sockets often have double pole swtiches built in) which I use for powering up whatever I am working on. > > Since I have cats, I buy cat litter in large plastic buckets. These My cats make use of one of Newton's inventions [1] and thus I don't need cat litter... [1] THe one that Dr Spooner would probably have called a 'flat cap' :-) > make for great storage of cables once the cat litter has been used up. > They come with lids that are reusable and they're made from white > plastic so I can write on them with a sharpie to say what's in them. > They have lids that allow them to be stacked and each one has a > swinging handle as well. They work great for storing rarely accessed > stuff like this in a space efficient manner. How long do they last? My experience with such containers -- ones that are not supposed to be re=used -- is that the plastic breakds down in a couple of years. If you have a pile of such contaienrs, it often falls over at this point, scattering bits everywhere... I am also concerned about possible reactions between the pasticiser i nthe PVC insulation and the storage container. Some plastics (expanded polystyrene -- styrofoam -- is the worst, but it affects others too) will damage the cable (causing it to go brittle) and also damage themselves. I've seen what happens if you leave a coiled-up cable on a perspex cover... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 26 13:48:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 19:48:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <9843E12C-D6FF-4583-9C1F-FA10CF784B0C@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 25, 11 08:54:21 pm Message-ID: > Oh yeah, power cables. I have so many and forget that other people > don't; sometimes I'll go somewhere and don't bring the cord and get > weird looks when I act surprised that my hosts don't have spare computer > cords. Indeed. Those are everyhwere here. I even have (and could probably find) ones with Aemrican (117V and 234V) plugs, German Schuco plugs, and maybe others... > > Interestingly enough, we got a new coffee percolator recently that has > an IEC cord. That's very convenient, because replacements for the old > Farberware ones were getting hard to find. I understand, though, that ^^^^^^^^^^ What does that look like ? > this is common practice in Europe for tea kettles? Yes. Well, actually the conenctor on an electric kettle over here is the 'hot condtion' one with a notch on the socket and ridge insdie the plug. Originally, the 'normal' one, as used on computers, was rated at 6A, the 'hot condtion' one at 10A. I could never work out why, the contacts were identical. Now it appears all are rated at 10A. A common term for the sort of mains lead we're talking about, whether 'hot condition' or not, is a 'kettle lead'. Older UK electrica kettles had one of 2 conenctorm The older one was flat with 2 roudn pins on the kettle. The outer shell of the socket part had spring contacts which conencted to the kettle body whenm youp lugged it in, providing the earth connection. The somewhat later one was a circular connector about 3cm in diameter with 2 round plins for the live and neutral wires and a flat earth pin. There have been others too. As for electronic equipment, just about everything modern uses one of the IEC 320 connectors. The one we've been talking aobut, the smaller 'figure of 8' 2 pin one (used on radios, tape recorders, non-earthed laptop power brickes, etc) and it's 3 pin version (used on earthed power bricks). BEfore those were common, there were a series of circular connecotrs, in at least 1.5A and 5A versions with 2, 3 or 6 round pins. SOem of the older ones don't meet safety standrds now, becuase you could unscrew the cover of the cable-mounted part iwthout needing a tool and expose live terminals. But tater ones were held together with screws, and last time I looked were still being made. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 26 13:57:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 19:57:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <032a01ccac65$77febf80$67fc3e80$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Nov 26, 11 06:01:46 pm Message-ID: > I went into a hardware shop recently and asked for an IEC lead. I got blank Well, of course there are many connectors covered by vairous IEC standards. Enen if you specify IEC 320, there are still quite a few types (including the 'kettle plug', figure of 8 connector used on low-power radios, etc > looks until I said "you know, a kettle lead", then they knew immediately > what I wanted :-) Reminds me of the time I asked for an ST412-interfaced hard drive (back when such things were common). After I got puzzled look I decided to use the oommon, albeit incorect name of 'MFM hard drive' and got what I wanted. Or the time I walked into an hardware (not as in computer) shop and asked for a tube of isocyano-acryllic hydro-copolymerising adhesive. After the blank look I realised what I has said and asked for 'a tube of superglue, pelase'. -tony From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Sat Nov 26 10:09:18 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:09:18 +0100 Subject: PROMS Message-ID: hello every one, is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 bits to make proms?thanks best regards Alain Nierveze nierveze at radio-astronomie.com www.radio-astronomie.com From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 26 17:05:05 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 15:05:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1322348705.68871.YahooMailNeo@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Check out Srecord.? It can do what you want, and more, and can work binary and various other formats. Dave >________________________________ > From: nierveze >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 10:09 AM >Subject: PROMS > >hello every one, >is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? >that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 bits to make proms?thanks >best regards >Alain Nierveze >nierveze at radio-astronomie.com >www.radio-astronomie.com > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 26 17:12:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 18:12:00 -0500 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <9843E12C-D6FF-4583-9C1F-FA10CF784B0C@gmail.com> References: <4ECFACD2.26142.156CA36@cclist.sydex.com> <9843E12C-D6FF-4583-9C1F-FA10CF784B0C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ED17240.4050207@neurotica.com> On 11/25/2011 08:54 PM, David Riley wrote: > Oh yeah, power cables. I have so many and forget that other people > don't; sometimes I'll go somewhere and don't bring the cord and get > weird looks when I act surprised that my hosts don't have spare > computer cords. I've experienced that myself. :) I was shocked to learn that there are people who use computer equipment in their day-to-day lives who don't have a box of power cables sitting around. I also laugh when people (annoyingly) bring their broken (invariably PC) computers to me to fix, with the power cable plugged into the back. > I've taken a liking to the Sterilite drawers that you can buy from > Target relatively cheaply in stacks of three. They're stackable > beyond that (up to at least six comfortably) and come in a variety > of cheerful colors. I've got bins for power cables, power strips, > USB, Ethernet, serial, ribbon and lots of other categories. I use those myself, lots of them. The ones I've standardized on have drawers about 10" wide and maybe 2" deep. I use them for component storage, with reels of surface-mount components in labeled ziploc bags in the drawers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 17:28:45 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 18:28:45 -0500 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AE13214-42C1-47FE-AE8E-6FAF91A646E6@gmail.com> On Nov 26, 2011, at 11:09, "nierveze" wrote: > hello every one, > is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? > that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 bits to make proms?thanks I usually just write a quick Python script to do it; it is literally less than 20 lines of really simple code (same with the reverse). I could send you a sample if you wanted. Not as useful to those of you for whom it is inconvenient to use Python, but still. - Dave From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Nov 26 17:57:42 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:57:42 -0600 Subject: S-100 6502 CPU board In-Reply-To: <1322316333.15068.YahooMailClassic@web180207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1322316333.15068.YahooMailClassic@web180207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:05 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/ > #view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%206502%20CPU%20board > Question... a related link..... http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/4200908/FrontPage Where does one get just the 6x4 keypad in that picture? Is that something custom made just for this project? Is it available for purchase? I am looking to hook up a nice external keypad to my Micro- Kim after mounting it in a chassis. Can't seem to find a good 6x4 matrix encoded keypad, hopefully with covers that remove so you can put your own labels "under the plastic". I'm thinking of a keypad that has a similar look/feel to the one on a heathkit H8. I was thinking I would just get some perfboard and individual cherry switches and wire it up, but if prior art exists at a reasonable price.... Best, J From shumaker at att.net Sat Nov 26 18:16:05 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:16:05 -0800 Subject: S-100 6502 CPU board In-Reply-To: References: <1322316333.15068.YahooMailClassic@web180207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ED18145.6040102@att.net> FWIW, the Heathkit H9 terminal and the Heathkit ET3400 trainer have the same keys. The ET3400 is a common item on EPAY. Steve On 11/26/2011 3:57 PM, Jay West wrote: > > On Nov 26, 2011, at 8:05 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > >> http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%206502%20CPU%20board >> >> > > Question... a related link..... > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/4200908/FrontPage > > Where does one get just the 6x4 keypad in that picture? Is that > something custom made just for this project? Is it available for > purchase? I am looking to hook up a nice external keypad to my > Micro-Kim after mounting it in a chassis. Can't seem to find a good > 6x4 matrix encoded keypad, hopefully with covers that remove so you > can put your own labels "under the plastic". I'm thinking of a keypad > that has a similar look/feel to the one on a heathkit H8. I was > thinking I would just get some perfboard and individual cherry > switches and wire it up, but if prior art exists at a reasonable > price.... > > Best, > > J > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 26 18:25:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:25:50 -0800 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED1130E.32447.1BDB5ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2011 at 17:09, nierveze wrote: > hello every one, > is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? > that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 > bits to make proms?thanks best regards Alain Nierveze > nierveze at radio-astronomie.com www.radio-astronomie.com Here's a little MS-DOS C program that I wrote 24 years ago to do this. If you'd rather hanve the .exe file, just email me. -------------------------------------------------- #include #include /* Odd byte/Even byte splitting program. Calling sequence is oe o/e infile outfile */ main( argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { int ihand, ohand, oeflag; char chb[2]; if (argc != 4) { fprintf( stderr, "Syntax is - oe o/e infile outfile\n"); exit(1); } switch ( *argv[1]) { /* check out odd/even argument */ case 'E': case 'e': oeflag = 0; /* say even */ break; case 'O': case 'o': oeflag = 1; /* say odd */ break; default: fprintf( stderr, "Flag must be \"odd\" or \"even\"\n"); exit(1); } if ( ( ihand = open( argv[2], O_RDONLY+O_RAW)) < 0) { fprintf( stderr, "Unable to open %s\n", argv[2]); exit(1); } if ( ( ohand = open( argv[3], O_CREAT+O_WRONLY+O_RAW)) < 0) { fprintf( stderr, "Could not create %s\n", argv[3]); exit(1); } while ( read( ihand, chb, 2)) write( ohand, &chb[oeflag], 1); close(ihand); close(ohand); exit(0); } /* end of oe */ ----------------------------------------------------------------- From chrise at pobox.com Sat Nov 26 18:41:48 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 18:41:48 -0600 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111127004148.GK5295@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (11/26/2011 at 05:09PM +0100), nierveze wrote: > hello every one, > is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? > that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of > 8 bits to make proms?thanks > best regards > Alain Nierveze > nierveze at radio-astronomie.com > www.radio-astronomie.com This is the most useful tool for this I have found, http://srecord.sourceforge.net/ Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 26 20:34:38 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:34:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111270234.VAA16375@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> this is common practice in Europe for tea kettles? > Yes. Well, actually the conenctor on an electric kettle over here is > the 'hot condtion' one with a notch on the socket and ridge insdie > the plug. Originally, the 'normal' one, as used on computers, was > rated at 6A, the 'hot condtion' one at 10A. I could never work out > why, the contacts were identical. Now it appears all are rated at > 10A. I would speculate that the "hot condition" name for it is relevant, that the difference is not the contacts but the surrounding plastic, with the hot condition version rated for substantially higher temperatures. The notch and its mating ridge are, of course, to stop you from mistakenly using a low-temperature cord in something that presumably runs hotter than the low-temperature ones are rated for. Of course, a cable with the notch can be used in a device with no ridge, but that's OK; a high-temperature cable in a low-temperature device is the safe kind of mismatch. Do you find that plausible? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Nov 27 02:35:35 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 00:35:35 -0800 Subject: Interpreting Vaxstation 3100 memory error Message-ID: <4ED1F657.3030009@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- Picked up a Vaxstation 3100 today at the SRCS meeting. There is some minor corrosion on the memory and motherboard PCBs, some due to prolonged exposure to moisture, and some due to a leaking clock battery. I've cleaned up the corrosion and it doesn't appear to have done any serious damage. At POST it identifies itself as a KA42-A, which I believe makes it a Model 30. I'm getting error messages from the POST and I'm unsure how to interpret them -- the manuals have not been 100% clear. Here's what I get: KA42-A V1.3 F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4...3_..2_..1?.. ? E 0040 0000.0005 ? C 0080 0000.4001 ? B 0010 000C.0081 ?? 1 00C0 0011.700E The (E) error I expect since there's no clock battery. The (C) is also expected since I don't have a keyboard/mouse plugged in (just using the serial console). Similarly, (1) is also expected since I don't currently have the ethernet interface hooked up to anything. (B) is what's confusing me -- my understanding is that a single question mark indicates a "soft" error, described in the manual thus: "Usually, a question mark (?) in the power-up summary indicates a soft error and the system may be usable without replacing any FRUs." OK. What does that mean for memory, and how do I interpret the error code? I know that the "000C" part indicates the amount of memory installed -- what does "0081" mean in this context, and should I be concerned? For further reference, "test 50" gives the following for memory: ? MEM 000C.0081 00400000 The machine does boot (VMS 6.0 off of two very noisy 104MB drives) and it seems to work OK, though I haven't stressed it much yet. Any suggestions here would be much appreciated. Thanks! Josh From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 08:08:37 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 09:08:37 -0500 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2011, at 2:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Interestingly enough, we got a new coffee percolator recently that has >> an IEC cord. That's very convenient, because replacements for the old >> Farberware ones were getting hard to find. I understand, though, that > ^^^^^^^^^^ > What does that look like ? It's just some square 2-conductor plug that doesn't resemble much of anything out there. My in-laws (who introduced me to percolators) have a few of them, but since they got their percolators from yard sales, I have no idea when Farberware decided to start standardizing; I'd guess that most of these pots date back to the '70s or earlier. :-) Still quite functional, though. >> this is common practice in Europe for tea kettles? > > Yes. Well, actually the conenctor on an electric kettle over here is the > 'hot condtion' one with a notch on the socket and ridge insdie the > plug. Originally, the 'normal' one, as used on computers, was rated at > 6A, the 'hot condtion' one at 10A. I could never work out why, the > contacts were identical. Now it appears all are rated at 10A. I think this one might have that as well. Pretty sure most of the "computer" power cords I have are rated at 10A, but they don't have the notch down the middle, which would mean I'd have to modify one to plug the thing in. > A common term for the sort of mains lead we're talking about, whether > 'hot condition' or not, is a 'kettle lead'. > > Older UK electrica kettles had one of 2 conenctorm The older one was flat > with 2 roudn pins on the kettle. The outer shell of the socket part had > spring contacts which conencted to the kettle body whenm youp lugged it > in, providing the earth connection. The somewhat later one was a circular > connector about 3cm in diameter with 2 round plins for the live and > neutral wires and a flat earth pin. There have been others too. Here in the US, we don't need that sissy grounding! We take our lethal electric shocks like men. :-) Seriously, some of the poor grounding in our electrical equipment is shocking (har har) to say the least. My wife's grandparents' house still doesn't have three-prong outlets anywhere (these weren't common in the US until... I don't actually know when. Probably the '50s or '60s? Anyone?). They use those horrible 2-prong to 3-prong adaptors with the little metal screw eye at the bottom that's supposed to screw into the center screw on the outlet plate (which makes the assumption that your junction box is grounded, which it often isn't in older houses). Of course, most of those adaptors aren't attached to the screw, and they just happily run power strips with brand-new TVs, refrigerators and computer equipment over to them. - Dave From wheagy at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 12:36:44 2011 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 13:36:44 -0500 Subject: Rhino Mark III Robot Arm Controller Schematic Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone have a schematic for the Rhino Mark III Controller? I acquired a Rhino robot arm and the B motor encoder channel seems to not be working properly and I'd like to try to isolate which parts of the controller board are unique to the B channel. Alternatively, if there are any Rhino experts that could help point me in the right direction, that would also be appreciated. I think I've isolated it to a problem with the controller and not the motor/encoder or the teach pendant. Using a scope, the output from the B channel is very different than the other 7 channels. Thanks...Win From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Nov 27 13:11:21 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 11:11:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Big iron for sale in Milwaukee - S.E.L. 810A Message-ID: <1322421081.14338.YahooMailNeo@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Vintage "Systems Engineering Laboratories" S.E.L. 810A computer from approx. 1967 is for sale. That's all I know. Contact Sonia for more information: Sonia Perich itsusperich2 at gmail.com Upload your pictures once you buy it. Thanks- Steve. From jon at jonworld.com Sun Nov 27 13:17:00 2011 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan J. M. Katz) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 14:17:00 -0500 Subject: Big iron for sale in Milwaukee - S.E.L. 810A In-Reply-To: <1322421081.14338.YahooMailNeo@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1322421081.14338.YahooMailNeo@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 2:11 PM, steven stengel wrote: > > > Vintage "Systems Engineering Laboratories" S.E.L. 810A computer from approx. 1967 is for sale. > That's all I know. > > Contact Sonia for more information: > Sonia Perich > > itsusperich2 at gmail.com The first hit on Google for SEL810A: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Systems_Engineering_Laboratories/SystemsEngrgLab.SEL810A.1967.102646093.pdf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 27 13:43:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:43:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <4ED17240.4050207@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 26, 11 06:12:00 pm Message-ID: > > On 11/25/2011 08:54 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Oh yeah, power cables. I have so many and forget that other people > > don't; sometimes I'll go somewhere and don't bring the cord and get > > weird looks when I act surprised that my hosts don't have spare > > computer cords. > > I've experienced that myself. :) I was shocked to learn that there > are people who use computer equipment in their day-to-day lives who Yeah, there are aven computer-users who don't own a soldering iron, a mutlimeter or a logic analyser. Kids these days.... I normally carry a couple of known-good mains leads in my toolkit when I do repairs. Alogn with any other 'standard' cables that I suspect I might need. The katter deoebd ib wgat U am working on, if it's an HP machien I'll carry a few HPIBm HPIL and HP-HIL leads, for example > don't have a box of power cables sitting around. I also laugh when > people (annoyingly) bring their broken (invariably PC) computers to me > to fix, with the power cable plugged into the back. Hmm... Not half as annoying as when I get soemthing for repair and the (non-stnadrd) cable is not included with it. I prefer all cables to be included when I get something to repair, if only beceaus the cable could be the cause of the problem. If the machine won't power up at all, I do want to check the mains lead. Ove here, where mains plugs normally contain cartridge fuses, I want to know if the machine is blowing that fuse (if it is, it points to a short-circuit early in the power circuitry). I once had a C64 to repair which only produced mnonochrome output on the Commodore monitor, that was an open-circuit wire in the video cable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 27 13:48:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:48:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <201111270234.VAA16375@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 26, 11 09:34:38 pm Message-ID: > > >> this is common practice in Europe for tea kettles? > > Yes. Well, actually the conenctor on an electric kettle over here is > > the 'hot condtion' one with a notch on the socket and ridge insdie > > the plug. Originally, the 'normal' one, as used on computers, was > > rated at 6A, the 'hot condtion' one at 10A. I could never work out > > why, the contacts were identical. Now it appears all are rated at > > 10A. > > I would speculate that the "hot condition" name for it is relevant, > that the difference is not the contacts but the surrounding plastic, > with the hot condition version rated for substantially higher > temperatures. The notch and its mating ridge are, of course, to stop > you from mistakenly using a low-temperature cord in something that Oh, absolutely. The 'hot condition' sockers. at least the moulded ones, are a different material to the standard ones. > presumably runs hotter than the low-temperature ones are rated for. Of > course, a cable with the notch can be used in a device with no ridge, > but that's OK; a high-temperature cable in a low-temperature device is > the safe kind of mismatch. > > Do you find that plausible? Yes, but that's not the point I was making. The electrical parts -- the contacts, are the same in the normal and the 'hot codition' ones, and yet the former was rated at 6A and the latter at 10A. Why the difference? Now, I suppose the hot condtion ones could stand the contacts running hotter so they could carry more current, but IMHO if the contacts of a connector are getting that hot, it's underrated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 27 13:36:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:36:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: from "nierveze" at Nov 26, 11 05:09:18 pm Message-ID: > > hello every one, > is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? > that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 > bits to make proms?thanks What machine.operating system is this tool going to run on? I would have thought you could write a quick kludge to do it (no proper error tapping, etc) in a dozen lines of C at most. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 27 14:09:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:09:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Nov 27, 11 09:08:37 am Message-ID: > > Yes. Well, actually the conenctor on an electric kettle over here is the > > 'hot condtion' one with a notch on the socket and ridge insdie the > > plug. Originally, the 'normal' one, as used on computers, was rated at > > 6A, the 'hot condtion' one at 10A. I could never work out why, the > > contacts were identical. Now it appears all are rated at 10A. > > I think this one might have that as well. Pretty sure most of the Very liekly it does. > "computer" power cords I have are rated at 10A, but they don't have the > notch down the middle, which would mean I'd have to modify one to plug > the thing in. No, don;t do that. The 'Hot condition' connector is designed to withstand the higher then normal temperatures produced by such devices, the ridge is there ot prevend you from plugging a normal cable in. A normal cable may well soften enough to be hazardous. You can get 'hot codition' sockets quite easily over here. I would be suprised if Farnell didn't sell them (and thye have a US presense IIRC). > Here in the US, we don't need that sissy grounding! We take our > lethal electric shocks like men. :-) > > Seriously, some of the poor grounding in our electrical equipment is > shocking (har har) to say the least. My wife's grandparents' house Over here, equipent must genrally either be 'double insulated' (which means even in the event of a failure, exposed metal cannot become life) or earthed. There is one exception to this -- a single-insulated non-eartehd device that can still be legally sold -- christmas light strings (!). For homebrew stuff it's generally easier to earth it than to ensrue it meets all the requirements to be double insulated. A lot of modern commercial devices are double-insulated and have a 2 wire mains lead), one reason is that such devices are stil safe if the earthing on the socket is dubious... > still doesn't have three-prong outlets anywhere (these weren't common in > the US until... I don't actually know when. > Probably the '50s or '60s? Anyone?). They use those horrible 2-prong I don;t know when they became common over here. The older-style round pin sockets existed in 2 and 3 pin versiosn (and were incompatible, in that you couldn't plug the 2 plin plug into the 3 pin socket or vice versa). All ring main socekts (the '13A' BS1362 one) are 3 pin, I think they were introduced in 1948. I am also darn sure that fititng 2 pin non-earthed sockets is against the regulations now (as it should be!). > to 3-prong adaptors with the little metal screw eye at the bottom that's > supposed to screw into the center screw on the outlet plate (which makes > the assumption that your junction box is grounded, which it often isn't > in older houses). Of course, most of those adaptors aren't attached to > the screw, and they just happily run power strips with brand-new TVs, > refrigerators and computer equipment over to them. Yes, I've seen such adapters. I've also seen a moulder US 115V plug wit hthe earth pin cut off, presumably so it would go into a 2 pin socket. Ouch!. Ther'es one possible hazard over here. The normal domestic power cirucit is called a 'ring main'. As the name implies its a ring of cable and you can fit as many 13A socket outlets onto it as you like (there are restrictions as to the floor area it can cover, etc). The cable is rated at 21A (IIRC) so the circuit can theoretically carry 42A (2 paralell paths as it's a ring), it's fused at 30A in the 'consumer unit' (aka fuse box)). Anyway, since 30A is a ridiculaously high current rating for portable appliances, there's a cartridge fuse in the plug. These exist in a number of current ratings, but only 3A and 13A are commonly used. The first problem is that most 'loose' plugs are supplied with a 13A fuse in it. It's not uncommon for such a plug to be fitted to a piece of electronic equipment which should be prtected with a 3A fuse in the plug. I can't be the only person with a large jar or 13A fuses that I've removed form such plugs. Actually, the plugs _are_ available with a 3A fuse pre-fitted, but just try finding anyone who stocks them. The worse hazard is that I have a mains lead which has what appears to be a UK 13A plug on one end (and will fit a normal UK mains socket) and an IEC 320 connector on the other, but _no_ cartridge fuse in the moulded-on plug. That is IMHO lethal over here. I believe it was made for use in some other country which was once under British rule and which adopted the same mains socket on a 15A radial circuit (one cable per socket outlet, each socket indvidually fused in the consumer unit). In that application you don't need the fuse in the plug. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 27 14:42:17 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 12:42:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111127123742.G66195@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I normally carry a couple of known-good mains leads in my toolkit when I > do repairs. Alogn with any other 'standard' cables that I suspect I might > need. The katter deoebd ib wgat U am working on, if it's an HP machien nive ruggt gabd ibe ti tge ruggt From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 27 15:17:12 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:17:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111272117.QAA01528@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I've also seen a moulder US 115V plug wit hthe earth pin cut off, > presumably so it would go into a 2 pin socket. Ouch!. Ouch indeed. I've got one of those. Well, not "cut off", more like "pulled out" - there's a hole in the plastic of the right size to hold the missing pin. I've been wondering what to do with it; the thing on the other end of the cord is a six-outlet power bar, which would be convenient, but I'm not comfortable using such a thing without working ground. (Actually, that's not quite true. I have a moderate number of devices with unpolarized two-pin plugs, which I wouldn't mind using with it. But it's hard to make sure I don't lose track of which powerbar it is and plug in something that assumes a ground.) I probably should cut the plug off and wire on a proper one.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 27 15:23:00 2011 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:23:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201111272123.QAA01627@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [T]hat's not the point I was making. The electrical parts -- the > contacts, are the same in the normal and the 'hot codition' ones, and > yet the former was rated at 6A and the latter at 10A. Why the > difference? > Now, I suppose the hot condtion ones could stand the contacts running > hotter so they could carry more current, but IMHO if the contacts of > a connector are getting that hot, it's underrated. Thoughts: (1) In some cases it may well run hot even if the contact is good, if it is thermally close to something that's _supposed_ to run hot (a teakettle heating element comes to mind). (2) What's the problem with running hot (even if due to poor contact), if everything close enough to be affected is designed to run that hot? (3) If something goes slightly wrong and it starts running hotter than it should, it's better if everything can stand it until someone notices and deals with it. The higher the device's draw, the hotter a poor contact will run. In other words, it's basically safety headroom. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 15:24:33 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:24:33 -0500 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10668FE0-7F19-4027-B1BE-E0E1D95DC3EB@gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> "computer" power cords I have are rated at 10A, but they don't have the >> notch down the middle, which would mean I'd have to modify one to plug >> the thing in. > > No, don;t do that. The 'Hot condition' connector is designed to withstand > the higher then normal temperatures produced by such devices, the ridge > is there ot prevend you from plugging a normal cable in. A normal cable > may well soften enough to be hazardous. I wasn't seriously considering it; these protections are usually (though not always) there for good reasons. > You can get 'hot codition' sockets quite easily over here. I would be > suprised if Farnell didn't sell them (and thye have a US presense IIRC). I think I've also seen that groove fitted to electronic equipment that requires a 15A outlet, though it's really not the right plug. The Wikipedia article has nice pictures of all the standard IEC end connectors, and I think I've seen all but one or two of them in real use, which is surprising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320_C7 > Over here, equipent must genrally either be 'double insulated' (which > means even in the event of a failure, exposed metal cannot become life) > or earthed. There is one exception to this -- a single-insulated > non-eartehd device that can still be legally sold -- christmas light > strings (!). I actually have a very nice book by Morgan Jones on tube/valve amp construction which details all of those requirements. It's the first exposure I ever had to UK grounding requirements, and my first thought was, "Wow, I guess they had electrical engineers come up with their electrical safety requirements". I don't think we have anywhere close to that level of safety requirement here in the US for our electric equipment (and if we do, I don't think it's enforced often). > I don;t know when they became common over here. The older-style round pin > sockets existed in 2 and 3 pin versiosn (and were incompatible, in that > you couldn't plug the 2 plin plug into the 3 pin socket or vice versa). > All ring main socekts (the '13A' BS1362 one) are 3 pin, I think they were > introduced in 1948. I am also darn sure that fititng 2 pin non-earthed > sockets is against the regulations now (as it should be!). I don't think fitting 2-prong outlets is allowed by building code here, either, though I can't imagine why anyone would want to anyway. Our three-prong outlets are backwards-compatible with the 2-prong plugs, which does lead to idiots prying off the ground prong of many plugs to make them fit in 2-prong outlets. It's a typical response to the square peg/round hole problem: apply more force! I did see a two-prong outlet in a hostel bathroom in Edinburgh recently; no idea how up-to-code that was, but it did have a prominent sign that said "for shavers only". > Yes, I've seen such adapters. I've also seen a moulder US 115V plug wit > hthe earth pin cut off, presumably so it would go into a 2 pin socket. > Ouch!. The adaptors, when installed PROPERLY (which is a royal pain to do a lot of the time, as the screw eye isn't always sized just right, and of course very few people actually check with a meter to make sure the junction box is grounded) work more or less fine. There are easily-obtained, cheap neon light devices over here (I'm sure they're available everywhere else, too) which light up with different combinations for different circuit faults (including proper wiring). They're the size of a stubby screwdriver, cost a few dollars, and fit nicely in a toolbox; I don't understand why everyone doesn't have one. > Ther'es one possible hazard over here. The normal domestic power cirucit > is called a 'ring main'. As the name implies its a ring of cable and you > can fit as many 13A socket outlets onto it as you like (there are > restrictions as to the floor area it can cover, etc). The cable is rated > at 21A (IIRC) so the circuit can theoretically carry 42A (2 paralell > paths as it's a ring), it's fused at 30A in the 'consumer unit' (aka fuse > box)). > Anyway, since 30A is a ridiculaously high current rating for portable > appliances, there's a cartridge fuse in the plug. These exist in a number > of current ratings, but only 3A and 13A are commonly used. That's actually my favorite feature of UK power plugs (that and the fact that they're occasionally larger than the equipment they power). > The worse hazard is that I have a mains lead which has what appears to be > a UK 13A plug on one end (and will fit a normal UK mains socket) and an > IEC 320 connector on the other, but _no_ cartridge fuse in the moulded-on > plug. That is IMHO lethal over here. I believe it was made for use in > some other country which was once under British rule and which adopted > the same mains socket on a 15A radial circuit (one cable per socket > outlet, each socket indvidually fused in the consumer unit). In that > application you don't need the fuse in the plug. I once received a PowerPC evaluation board which (surprisingly) came with an ATX power supply with IEC cords for both the US and the UK. The cord didn't have a fuse, which surprised me, but perhaps the kit was made up by someone unfamiliar with the regulations? - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 27 15:35:22 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 14:35:22 -0700 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <201111272117.QAA01528@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201111272117.QAA01528@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4ED2AD1A.10709@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/27/2011 2:17 PM, Mouse wrote: > > I probably should cut the plug off and wire on a proper one.... Also check just to see, that the power does come from the fuse box... you never know as you could get it from the neighbors window instead. I have heard that happen in a older home. :( > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 27 15:44:46 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:44:46 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ED2AF4E.3070901@compsys.to> Eric Smith wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: > > The company's name is XX2247, > > If I'm not mistaken, the company name is actually XX2247 LLC. They > seem to be keeping a very low profile. > >> The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. > > > The only name I can find associated with it is Dave Carroll, formerly > of Mentec, formerly of DEC. > > There seems to be a personal-use license from XX2247 LLC for RT-11, > RSTS/E, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ at: > http://www.trailing-edge.com/a Unfortunately, the file was replaced with images which were found to be unusable. As a result, the file is no longer available. Fortunately, I downloaded "a.pdf" before that. It is attached. The MD5 value is also attached. Jay, maybe you can save it on classiccmp which is hopefully more secure. Or maybe Al Kossow can host it. Does anyone have any comments? Jerome Fine -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: a.md5 URL: From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 15:51:29 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:51:29 -0500 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <201111272117.QAA01528@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201111272117.QAA01528@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <0796B256-407F-478A-9BCF-49F8A9EAD6F6@gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2011, at 4:17 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I've also seen a moulder US 115V plug wit hthe earth pin cut off, >> presumably so it would go into a 2 pin socket. Ouch!. > > Ouch indeed. I've got one of those. Well, not "cut off", more like > "pulled out" - there's a hole in the plastic of the right size to hold > the missing pin. I've been wondering what to do with it; the thing on > the other end of the cord is a six-outlet power bar, which would be > convenient, but I'm not comfortable using such a thing without working > ground. (Actually, that's not quite true. I have a moderate number of > devices with unpolarized two-pin plugs, which I wouldn't mind using > with it. But it's hard to make sure I don't lose track of which > powerbar it is and plug in something that assumes a ground.) I tend to use those extension cords with the three two-prong plugs on the end (one on one side, two on the other) for wall warts. I'd feel uncomfortable loading up an extension cord with so many things, but wall warts typically don't take much current; it's a pretty good way of saving plug space, since they tend to take up two or more spaces on a power strip. Ironically, those cords are still readily available (even when two-prong outlets are not), and they often come a few bucks cheaper than a cord with a plug on one end and the infamous "universal connectors" on the other; they're readily convertible to same through the use of wire cutters. :-) - Dave From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 27 15:55:19 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:55:19 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ED2B1C7.5020302@compsys.to> > Eric Smith wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: > > The company's name is XX2247, > > If I'm not mistaken, the company name is actually XX2247 LLC. They > seem to be keeping a very low profile. > >> The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. > > > The only name I can find associated with it is Dave Carroll, formerly > of Mentec, formerly of DEC. > > There seems to be a personal-use license from XX2247 LLC for RT-11, > RSTS/E, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ at: > http://www.trailing-edge.com/a Unfortunately, the file was replaced with images which were found to be unusable. As a result, the file is no longer available. Fortunately, I downloaded "a.pdf" before that. It is attached. The MD5 value is also attached. Jay, maybe you can save it on classiccmp which is hopefully more secure. Or maybe Al Kossow can host it. Does anyone have any comments? Jerome Fine -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: a.md5 URL: From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 15:55:45 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:55:45 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4ED2AF4E.3070901@compsys.to> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> <4ED2AF4E.3070901@compsys.to> Message-ID: <7CAFB4DF-5C31-41AB-B828-B8B0DFCCCB77@gmail.com> On Nov 27, 2011, at 4:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Unfortunately, the file was replaced with images which were found > to be unusable. As a result, the file is no longer available. > > Fortunately, I downloaded "a.pdf" before that. It is attached. The > MD5 value is also attached. I don't think attachments make it through on the list; you'll probably have to directly mail it. - Dave From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 27 19:36:56 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:36:56 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ED2E5B8.5040108@compsys.to> >Eric Smith wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: > > The company's name is XX2247, > > If I'm not mistaken, the company name is actually XX2247 LLC. They > seem to be keeping a very low profile. > >> The principals in XX2247 are well known in the PDP-11 arena. > > > The only name I can find associated with it is Dave Carroll, formerly > of Mentec, formerly of DEC. > > There seems to be a personal-use license from XX2247 LLC for RT-11, > RSTS/E, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ at: > http://www.trailing-edge.com/a Unfortunately, the file was replaced with images which were found to be unusable. As a result, the file is no longer available. Fortunately, I downloaded "a.pdf" before that. Unfortunately, when "a.pdf" is also attached, it does not make it through. If anyone wants a copy of "a.pdf", I can e-mail it directly. Jay, maybe you can save it on classiccmp which is hopefully more secure. Or maybe Al Kossow can host it. Does anyone have any comments? Jerome Fine -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: a.md5 URL: From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 27 19:50:18 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:50:18 -0800 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4ED2AF4E.3070901@compsys.to> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> <4ED2AF4E.3070901@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4ED2E8DA.1000708@bitsavers.org> On 11/27/11 1:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Jay, maybe you can save it on classiccmp which is hopefully more > secure. Or maybe Al Kossow can host it. > > Does anyone have any comments? > Yes I absolutely WILL NOT host this. This was a work in progress. Since Tim has NOT commented on this, why do people here insist it is valid? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 27 19:54:22 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:54:22 -0800 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4ED2E5B8.5040108@compsys.to> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> <4ED2E5B8.5040108@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4ED2E9CE.5070902@brouhaha.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Unfortunately, the file was replaced with images which were found > to be unusable. As a result, the file is no longer available. I get the distinct impression that the file wasn't intended (yet?) for public consumption. However, Google found it somehow, as it turned up near the top of search results for "XX2247 LLC". Eric From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 27 20:19:56 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 21:19:56 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4ED2E9CE.5070902@brouhaha.com> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> <4ED2E5B8.5040108@compsys.to> <4ED2E9CE.5070902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4ED2EFCC.9050304@compsys.to> Eric Smith wrote: > Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Unfortunately, the file was replaced with images which were found > > to be unusable. As a result, the file is no longer available. > > I get the distinct impression that the file wasn't intended (yet?) for > public consumption. However, Google found it somehow, as it turned up > near the top of search results for "XX2247 LLC". >Al Kossow wrote: >On 11/27/11 1:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jay, maybe you can save it on classiccmp which is hopefully more > >secure. Or maybe Al Kossow can host it. > > > >Does anyone have any comments? >Yes >I absolutely WILL NOT host this. This was a work in progress. >Since Tim has NOT commented on this, why do people here insist >it is valid? Both of the comments by Eric Smith and Al Kossow are helpful and would have been even MORE helpful when Eric sent his first e-mail about the file on November 11, 2011. Jerome Fine From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 20:35:18 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 21:35:18 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4ED2EFCC.9050304@compsys.to> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> <4ED2E5B8.5040108@compsys.to> <4ED2E9CE.5070902@brouhaha.com> <4ED2EFCC.9050304@compsys.to> Message-ID: Hopefully, this "leak" hasn't killed the project that created the document in the first place... Mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 27 22:18:54 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:18:54 -0800 Subject: [offlist]: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: <4ED2AF4E.3070901@compsys.to> References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> <4ED2AF4E.3070901@compsys.to> Message-ID: At 4:44 PM -0500 11/27/11, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >Fortunately, I downloaded "a.pdf" before that. It is attached. The >MD5 value is also attached. Jerome, Can you send me a copy? I didn't think to save it when I looked at it recently. At this point I really don't have any info on what's going on. A couple weeks ago was the first I'd heard the name of Dave's company, though I knew about him. Thanks, Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 27 22:25:33 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:25:33 -0800 Subject: [offlist]: RSTS > V9.6?? In-Reply-To: References: <4EBD6CFE.802@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA036CF6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4EBD7C61.8050004@brouhaha.com> <4ED2AF4E.3070901@compsys.to> Message-ID: Yeah, I need to learn how to change the To:. What can I say, I just got back from a Trans Siberian Orchestra concert, and my heads still ringing. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Nov 28 00:18:07 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:18:07 -0800 Subject: Interpreting Vaxstation 3100 memory error In-Reply-To: <4ED1F657.3030009@mail.msu.edu> References: <4ED1F657.3030009@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4ED3279F.30009@mail.msu.edu> To (sort of) answer my own question: Looks like a "soft" error w.r.t. memory for this particular case means that it's a fault found on a memory expansion board -- the system can run (in a degraded state) in this situation by simply ignoring the expanded memory. Checking "SHOW MEMORY" under VMS confirms this suspicion. Further, removing said memory expansion allows the memory self tests to pass with flying colors. So, my 8MB expansion board appears to be toast. On closer inspection it looks like there's some corrosion around one of the memory chips that may have destroyed some traces underneath it. Anyone have any of these boards going spare? (it's labeled as a "4/8 MB Memory Option") 4MB is a little tight :). Thanks as always, Josh On 11/27/2011 12:35 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up a Vaxstation 3100 today at the SRCS meeting. There is some > minor corrosion on the memory and motherboard PCBs, some due to > prolonged exposure to moisture, and some due to a leaking clock > battery. I've cleaned up the corrosion and it doesn't appear to have > done any serious damage. > > At POST it identifies itself as a KA42-A, which I believe makes it a > Model 30. > > I'm getting error messages from the POST and I'm unsure how to > interpret them -- the manuals have not been 100% clear. Here's what I > get: > > KA42-A V1.3 > > F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4...3_..2_..1?.. > > > ? E 0040 0000.0005 > ? C 0080 0000.4001 > ? B 0010 000C.0081 > ?? 1 00C0 0011.700E > > The (E) error I expect since there's no clock battery. The (C) is > also expected since I don't have a keyboard/mouse plugged in (just > using the serial console). Similarly, (1) is also expected since I > don't currently have the ethernet interface hooked up to anything. > > (B) is what's confusing me -- my understanding is that a single > question mark indicates a "soft" error, described in the manual thus: > "Usually, a question mark (?) in the power-up summary indicates a soft > error and the system may be usable without replacing any FRUs." OK. > What does that mean for memory, and how do I interpret the error > code? I know that the "000C" part indicates the amount of memory > installed -- what does "0081" mean in this context, and should I be > concerned? > > For further reference, "test 50" gives the following for memory: > > ? MEM 000C.0081 > 00400000 > > The machine does boot (VMS 6.0 off of two very noisy 104MB drives) and > it seems to work OK, though I haven't stressed it much yet. > > Any suggestions here would be much appreciated. > > Thanks! > Josh > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 28 00:42:48 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:42:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: gopher mirror of the IF-Archive Message-ID: I was wondering if any of you who are running gopher servers might be interested in hosting a mirror of the Interactive Fiction Archive. See http://www.if-archive.org/. I got back into the Frotz codebase and this thought popped up. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Sun Nov 27 06:02:17 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 13:02:17 +0100 Subject: PROMS References: <1322348705.68871.YahooMailNeo@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <935D6ACBBF744751B0E30DB5C5098DF8@Pc12> hello all thanks for your help,srecord will be ok,I think,but I also have saved the program in c.I think you have all guessed what I am doing,it is not a military secret...it is about the russian pdp11 chips,at the opposite of dec lsi11 they do not have a microcode console,I found the listing and the bin of the console of the 11/34 ,here (I think all of you know) http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/ I think I'll put it into two eproms 2716 will be enought big but difficult to find new,27128 will be easier to find and less expensive thanks again ,best regards alain I have made models of russian pdp(1801vm1,1801vm2) in eagle,they are no perfect because of the difficulty of writing text in small letters,but it is not a problem to draw pcb as the text has no influence ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:05 AM Subject: Re: PROMS Check out Srecord. It can do what you want, and more, and can work binary and various other formats. Dave >________________________________ > From: nierveze >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 10:09 AM >Subject: PROMS > >hello every one, >is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? >that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 bits >to make proms?thanks >best regards >Alain Nierveze >nierveze at radio-astronomie.com >www.radio-astronomie.com > > > From tingox at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 07:03:51 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 14:03:51 +0100 Subject: Christmas cleanup! In-Reply-To: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> References: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > * 22 8" floppies ($10, will ship) > ?If they weren't so big they'd make great stocking stuffers. ?Maybe they can > ?be hung outside the stocking? What kind of 8 inch floppies are these? Soft-sectored? ds/dd? or something else Have a nice day. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Oslo, Norway From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sun Nov 27 07:52:36 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 13:52:36 +0000 (WET) Subject: Interpreting Vaxstation 3100 memory error Message-ID: <01O8X07NWWCY002R3S@beyondthepale.ie> > >Picked up a Vaxstation 3100 today at the SRCS meeting. There is some >minor corrosion on the memory and motherboard PCBs, some due to >prolonged exposure to moisture, and some due to a leaking clock >battery. I've cleaned up the corrosion and it doesn't appear to have >done any serious damage. > >At POST it identifies itself as a KA42-A, which I believe makes it a >Model 30. > Presumably it says VS42-A on the back of the box? > >I'm getting error messages from the POST and I'm unsure how to interpret >them -- the manuals have not been 100% clear. Here's what I get: > >KA42-A V1.3 > >F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4...3_..2_..1?.. > > > ? E 0040 0000.0005 > ? C 0080 0000.4001 > ? B 0010 000C.0081 >?? 1 00C0 0011.700E > >The (E) error I expect since there's no clock battery. The (C) is also >expected since I don't have a keyboard/mouse plugged in (just using the >serial console). Similarly, (1) is also expected since I don't >currently have the ethernet interface hooked up to anything. > >(B) is what's confusing me -- my understanding is that a single question >mark indicates a "soft" error, described in the manual thus: "Usually, a >question mark (?) in the power-up summary indicates a soft error and the >system may be usable without replacing any FRUs." OK. What does that >mean for memory, and how do I interpret the error code? I know that the >"000C" part indicates the amount of memory installed -- what does "0081" >mean in this context, and should I be concerned? > Perhaps it is complaining about an error which is correctable by ECC? > >For further reference, "test 50" gives the following for memory: > > ? MEM 000C.0081 > 00400000 > I've had a quick look in Vaxstation 3100 Maintenance Guide (EK-285AA-MG-001) and it doesn't seem particularly clear to me either. It doesn't seem to mention 0081 at all. > >The machine does boot (VMS 6.0 off of two very noisy 104MB drives) and >it seems to work OK, though I haven't stressed it much yet. > Under VMS, does SHOW ERROR or ANALYSE /ERROR (given an early enough version of VMS) shed any light? > >Any suggestions here would be much appreciated. > The manual does suggest running the field service system exerciser (TEST 80000106 B) with a loopback connector on the serial port. Assuming this is an MMJ socket, you just need to loop DSR to DTR (ie the two outer pins), RXD to TXD and the two grounds in the middle to each other. If any of the memory is on an expansion board, try removing it and repeating the test to see if the problem is on the system board. (I've had some battery corrosion problems in a VS3100. It doesn't look too severe but test B seems to fail in the middle and go back to the start, repeating over and over. I must get around to making a better attempt to clean it and check the traces.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Sun Nov 27 15:28:01 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:28:01 +0100 Subject: PROMS References: Message-ID: I have all I need with srecord anc the c program of Chuck ,that can be used on any of my machines (pc windows,pc linux and even one of my vaxes), the most frequently used machines for my electronic work is a pc windows. I am mostly on the hardware side,I manipulate more easily silicon and copper than software thanks all for your help,the project is splitting the console program of the 11/34 to put it in two eproms to use with the russian chips that do not include a console a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 8:36 PM Subject: Re: PROMS >> >> hello every one, >> is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? >> that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 >> bits to make proms?thanks > > What machine.operating system is this tool going to run on? > > I would have thought you could write a quick kludge to do it (no proper > error tapping, etc) in a dozen lines of C at most. > > -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Nov 28 01:25:59 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 08:25:59 +0100 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111128082559.4c396c8c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:09:18 +0100 "nierveze" wrote: > is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? > that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 > bits to make proms? It would be helpfull to know the OS on which you have to do this. On somthing unixish I would write a piece of C, about: open( input); fstat( input, &stat); input_buf = mmap( input); close( input); open( out_put_even); lseek( output_even, stat.size / 2 - 1); write( output_even, "", 1); output_even_buf = mmap( output_even); close( output_even); open( out_put_odd); lseek( output_odd, stat.size / 2 - 1); write( output_,odd "", 1); output_odd_buf = mmap( output_odd); close( output_odd); for (size_t i = 0; i < stat.size; i += 2) { output_even_buf[i / 2] = input_buf[i]; output_odd_buf[i / 2] = input_buf[i + 1]; } munmap( output_even); munmap( output_odd); -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 28 04:47:05 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 05:47:05 -0500 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: <20111128082559.4c396c8c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20111128082559.4c396c8c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20111128104704.GD16040@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jochen Kunz once stated: > On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:09:18 +0100 > "nierveze" wrote: > > > is the a tool to make proms from *.bin output from compilers? > > that is to say a program that divides the 16 bits into two slices of 8 > > bits to make proms? > It would be helpfull to know the OS on which you have to do this. > > On somthing unixish I would write a piece of C, about: > open( input); > fstat( input, &stat); > input_buf = mmap( input); > close( input); > > open( out_put_even); > lseek( output_even, stat.size / 2 - 1); > write( output_even, "", 1); > output_even_buf = mmap( output_even); > close( output_even); > > open( out_put_odd); > lseek( output_odd, stat.size / 2 - 1); > write( output_,odd "", 1); > output_odd_buf = mmap( output_odd); > close( output_odd); > > for (size_t i = 0; i < stat.size; i += 2) { > output_even_buf[i / 2] = input_buf[i]; > output_odd_buf[i / 2] = input_buf[i + 1]; > } > munmap( output_even); > munmap( output_odd); Chuck's is more portable I think, to non-Unix systems. Alternatively: #include #include int main(int argc,char *argv[]) { int i; if (argc == 1) { fprintf(stderr,"usage: %s inputfile...\n",argv[0]); return EXIT_FAILURE; } for (i = 1 ; i < argc ; i++) { char evenname[FILENAME_MAX]; char oddname [FILENAME_MAX]; FILE *fpin; FILE *fpeven; FILE *fpodd; int c; int odd; sprintf(evenname,"%s.even",argv[i]); sprintf(oddname, "%s.odd", argv[i]); fpin = fopen(argv[i],"rb"); if (fpin == NULL) { perror(argv[i]); continue; } fpeven = fopen(evenname,"wb"); if (fpeven == NULL) { perror(evenname); fclose(fpin); continue; } fpodd = fopen(oddname,"wb"); if (fpodd == NULL) { perror(oddname); fclose(fpeven); fclose(fpin); continue; } odd = 0; while((c = fgetc(fpin)) != EOF) { if (odd) fputc(c,fpodd); else fputc(c,fpeven); odd = !odd; } fclose(fpodd); fclose(fpeven); fclose(fpin); } return EXIT_SUCCESS; } is portable to anything with an ANSI C compiler (C89). -spc (And can be run on a directory full of files) From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Nov 28 05:15:50 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:15:50 -0500 Subject: RSTS > V9.6?? Message-ID: Ignore the half-baked stuff. Fully baked seems to still be in progress. (I think Buck Henry was responsible for that line in The Graduate). Progress is very slow and what progress there is, isn't really due to any of my efforts (don't have nearly enough time to play with -11's anymore) but to others. Apache here is doing weird-ass stuff and serving up random alphabetical URL's as stuff that just happens to be in various public_html directories on my servers (apparently sometimes from other virtual domains...???) but which was never intended to be public in that sense. My fault for not understanding what Apache is doing. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Nov 28 06:05:48 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:05:48 +0100 Subject: Need: Intel "ISIS-II" development stuff for PC (DOS) Message-ID: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> Hello everybody, I came across some MCS-48 SW project which I have to get into active maintenance again. I have assembly source and listings. And some DOS batch files wich run commands like C:\ISIS\ASM80\HEXOBJ. And there are strange .CSD files which seem to contain some kind of build rules similar to a makefile. In the listings there's mentioned an ISIS-II ASM48 assembler. And an ISIS-II linker as well. I *have* to get that stuff up and working again. What I assume: - ISIS-II is an Intel Intellec's OS. - The Tools from ISIS-II have been ported to MS-DOS but still call themselves "ISIS-II" in the listings they produce. Am I right? Does anybody have the software? Heeeelp, I'm lost! It would be very nice if one of this list could help me out. Any input welcome! Kind regards, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Mon Nov 28 06:12:01 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:12:01 +0100 Subject: on FPGA simulation In-Reply-To: <93A181D8-5C2E-4D16-9307-8DD154470376@gmail.com> References: , <4EC303B1.3010609@telegraphics.com.au>, <4EC31495.5010906@verizon.net> <4EC38D3C.27142.5F5E2F@cclist.sydex.com> <201111161838.NAA27935@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4EC47792.10107@brouhaha.com> <4EC53AB2.4080503@bitsavers.org> <4EC57811.3040006@brouhaha.com> <4EC58233.6090200@bitsavers.org> <4EC590DE.2010304@brouhaha.com> <93A181D8-5C2E-4D16-9307-8DD154470376@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ED37A91.9030902@hachti.de> Am 18.11.2011 02:26, schrieb David Riley: > you actually know what the implications are and accept them, it's > fine (as with so many things that are "no-nos" in engineering). Couldn't have been said better! In VHDL I mix signal and variable assignments in processes. I've been told *NEVER* to do that because it leads to unpredictable results - wrong, you just have to understand what's going on. Then it's perfectly save to mix variable and signal assignments. :-) Philipp From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 28 08:08:24 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:08:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: gopher mirror of the IF-Archive In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Nov 27, 11 10:42:48 pm" Message-ID: <201111281408.pASE8OR7013064@floodgap.com> > I was wondering if any of you who are running gopher servers might be > interested in hosting a mirror of the Interactive Fiction Archive. See > http://www.if-archive.org/. > > I got back into the Frotz codebase and this thought popped up. Sure. Bug me off list. (gopher.floodgap.com) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You've got to have a gimmick if your band sucks. -- Gary Giddens ----------- From auringer at tds.net Mon Nov 28 09:09:41 2011 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:09:41 -0600 Subject: FS: Macintosh serial cables Message-ID: Hi all, I have a pile of Mac serial cables that I have no use for. See: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157628189994073/ If you want to save them from the recycle bin, make me an offer. Shipping from Madison, WI 53714. Thanks, -Jon From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 10:07:53 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:07:53 -0500 Subject: Macintosh serial cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <551947DC-0541-4D29-BC62-5E2F0EBFD979@gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2011, at 10:09 AM, auringer tds.net wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a pile of Mac serial cables that I have no use for. See: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157628189994073/ > If you want to save them from the recycle bin, make me an offer. > Shipping from Madison, WI 53714. > > Thanks, > > -Jon I might be interested, but payday is Wednesday. If they're still available by then, I might want one or two of the Localtalk boxes (though I think I liked PhoneNet better). Slightly related: Does anyone have some excess SCSI (Centronics 50M-50M) cables they'd be willing to sell? I used to have something like ten, and the Eater of Socks must have acquired a taste for SCSI cable, because they've all disappeared. I've had a hard time finding them online for less than $15 each (except maybe on eBay, which is perhaps where the Eater of Socks is selling them). - Dave From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 10:42:40 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 08:42:40 -0800 Subject: Macintosh serial cables In-Reply-To: <551947DC-0541-4D29-BC62-5E2F0EBFD979@gmail.com> References: <551947DC-0541-4D29-BC62-5E2F0EBFD979@gmail.com> Message-ID: You might find something here http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=scsi chris On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 8:07 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 28, 2011, at 10:09 AM, auringer tds.net wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a pile of Mac serial cables that I have no use for. See: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157628189994073/ > > If you want to save them from the recycle bin, make me an offer. > > Shipping from Madison, WI 53714. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jon > > > I might be interested, but payday is Wednesday. If they're still > available by then, I might want one or two of the Localtalk boxes (though I > think I liked PhoneNet better). > > Slightly related: Does anyone have some excess SCSI (Centronics 50M-50M) > cables they'd be willing to sell? I used to have something like ten, and > the Eater of Socks must have acquired a taste for SCSI cable, because > they've all disappeared. I've had a hard time finding them online for less > than $15 each (except maybe on eBay, which is perhaps where the Eater of > Socks is selling them). > > > - Dave > > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 28 12:37:04 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:37:04 -0700 Subject: Expansion memory boards (was: Interpreting Vaxstation 3100 memory error) In-Reply-To: <4ED3279F.30009@mail.msu.edu> References: <4ED1F657.3030009@mail.msu.edu> <4ED3279F.30009@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4ED3279F.30009 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > So, my 8MB expansion board appears to be toast. On closer inspection it > looks like there's some corrosion around one of the memory chips that > may have destroyed some traces underneath it. Anyone have any of these > boards going spare? (it's labeled as a "4/8 MB Memory Option") 4MB is > a little tight :). I've been wondering how hard it would be to start building "new" expansion memory boards for various machines. Surely the timing of modern memory chips is fast enough to meet the constraints of older systems and one-off PCB manufacturing should allow you to make the necessary daughter boards for a variety of machines. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 12:49:15 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:49:15 -0500 Subject: Expansion memory boards (was: Interpreting Vaxstation 3100 memory error) In-Reply-To: References: <4ED1F657.3030009@mail.msu.edu> <4ED3279F.30009@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Richard wrote: > Surely the timing of modern memory chips is fast enough to meet the > constraints of older systems and one-off PCB manufacturing should > allow you to make the necessary daughter boards for a variety of > machines. > I remember reading somewhere in a memory compatibility guide that the refresh rate of the memory modules must be within a certain threshold of the nominal refresh rate, otherwise the cells loose their charge and you end up with memory corruption. I believe people were trying to use 133MHz SDRAM DIMMs in a machine that clocked it's memory at 66MHz, and it wouldn't work. I'm not well versed in memory design, but you might get it to work with some buffer circuitry that kept the memory refreshed properly, even if it's doing nothing for 7 out of 8 cycles. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 28 13:04:07 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:04:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: <935D6ACBBF744751B0E30DB5C5098DF8@Pc12> References: <1322348705.68871.YahooMailNeo@web38108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <935D6ACBBF744751B0E30DB5C5098DF8@Pc12> Message-ID: <20111128103716.Q66195@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, nierveze wrote: > thanks for your help,srecord will be ok,I think,but I also have saved the > program in c. I used to give that and the inverse as early exercises in file I/O in my [beginning] Assembly class, and as simple examples in my Data Structures and Algorithms class for unions, shifts, ANDs, file I/O Some students had difficulty grasping the concept of one input, two outputs (and vice versa, where I showed it right before merging files) Another difficulty that many students always had was processing data, such as sorting or searching, WITHOUT reading it all into memory. "Bigger than 64K? ADD RAM!; Bigger than 1M? ADD RAM!", so I made them write a sort program with NO file size limits, and one whose only size limits were the file size limits of the OS (MS-DOS FAT12 permitted files from -2147483648 to 2147483647 bytes), which was even harder. Amongst the obvious possibilities for splitting the file are: read byte write byte to file1 read byte write byte to file2 read word write byte to file1 write byte to file2 WATCH OUT FOR: some compilers want to [by default] fopen() files in "TEXT" mode, and stop when they hit char26, or other none end-of file "EOF" characters. Most such compilers have switches to over-ride without necessarily changing from fopen() to open() Surely you can reduce it to much less than 12 lines in "high level" languages! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 28 13:19:05 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:19:05 -0700 Subject: Expansion memory boards (was: Interpreting Vaxstation 3100 memory error) In-Reply-To: References: <4ED1F657.3030009@mail.msu.edu> <4ED3279F.30009@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article , Jason McBrien writes: > I remember reading somewhere in a memory compatibility guide that the > refresh rate of the memory modules must be within a certain threshold of > the nominal refresh rate, otherwise the cells loose their charge and you > end up with memory corruption. I believe people were trying to use 133MHz > SDRAM DIMMs in a machine that clocked it's memory at 66MHz, and it wouldn't > work. Sure, there's an impedance mismatch between the cycle times of the host system and the required refresh rate of the modern (faster) memory. > I'm not well versed in memory design, but you might get it to work with > some buffer circuitry that kept the memory refreshed properly, even if it's > doing nothing for 7 out of 8 cycles. Yes, sorry I wasn't explicit about what sort of design I was imagining. I was definitely feeling that there would need to be some sort of controller on the memory board that mediates between the host and the modern memory parts -- something to match the timings between the two worlds. I wasn't thinking that just hooking the modern chips up straight to the vintage busses was going to do the trick. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From auringer at tds.net Mon Nov 28 13:21:47 2011 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:21:47 -0600 Subject: FS or trade: (4) Atari 1040ST & (1) Mega ST2 Message-ID: This Atari stuff falls outside my areas of interest. I would like to find loving new homes for the following: (4) Atari 1040ST computers w/SM124 monitor and mouse. One has the original box. Some docs. (1) Atari Mega ST2 See: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157624529916313/ for pictures. Location: Madison, WI 53714 I will consider offers of money or items from my want list below: Zilog Zeus distribution tape VAXStation 2000 (so I can format drives for my MicroVAX IIs) Drive sled for SGI 4D/25 Compact 6U VME chassis & power supply Internal SCSI hard drive for IBM Thinkpad Power 850 PC532 motherboard or complete system Hewlett Packard 700 series VME computer Interesting VME & Multibus SBCs and cards Sun Microsystems 386i - preferably a /250 IBM PC/RT system AT&T {3B2/300,3B2/310,3B2/400} -Jon From dmabry at mich.com Mon Nov 28 13:30:14 2011 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:30:14 -0500 Subject: Need: Intel "ISIS-II" development stuff for PC (DOS) In-Reply-To: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> References: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4ED3E146.2090503@mich.com> Hello Philipp, I should have all of this on 8" floppies. Give me a bit to round it up and I can send it to you. Yes, the CSD are like makefile. I think the acronym is Command String Definition and are command lines to the ISIS-II operating system. ISIS-II is the operating system for Intel's development systems. When you run an ISIS-II program under the emulator that exists, it will not know any difference and will still call itself ISIS-II in the listings. ASM80 is the assembler for the 8080 cpu. So maybe some of your stuff is for that cpu rather than the 8048. I'll get back to you. Or you can send me more details on what you need. Take care, Dave Philipp Hachtmann said the following on 11/28/2011 7:05 AM: > Hello everybody, > > I came across some MCS-48 SW project which I have to get into active > maintenance again. I have assembly source and listings. And some DOS > batch files wich run commands like C:\ISIS\ASM80\HEXOBJ. And there are > strange .CSD files which seem to contain some kind of build rules > similar to a makefile. > > In the listings there's mentioned an ISIS-II ASM48 assembler. And an > ISIS-II linker as well. I *have* to get that stuff up and working again. > > What I assume: > > - ISIS-II is an Intel Intellec's OS. > - The Tools from ISIS-II have been ported to MS-DOS but still call > themselves "ISIS-II" in the listings they produce. > > Am I right? > > Does anybody have the software? > > Heeeelp, I'm lost! > > > It would be very nice if one of this list could help me out. Any input > welcome! > > > > Kind regards, > > Philipp > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 28 13:37:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:37:16 -0800 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: <20111128103716.Q66195@shell.lmi.net> References: , <935D6ACBBF744751B0E30DB5C5098DF8@Pc12>, <20111128103716.Q66195@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4ED3726C.234.7326E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2011 at 11:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > Surely you can reduce it to much less than 12 lines in "high level" > languages! High level? For me, it's usually faster to use DEBUG on the file and write a little code than to go looking for a program. MOV SI,100 MOV DI,SI SHR CX,1 MOV DX,CX LODSW (insert MOV AL, AH if getting odd byte) STOSB LOOP back to the LODSW MOV CX,DX INT 3 Use the DEBUG commands to change tthe name of the output file and write it. I'd be surprised if there weren't some high-level language in which this was a one-liner. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 14:39:49 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:39:49 -0500 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: <4ED3726C.234.7326E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <935D6ACBBF744751B0E30DB5C5098DF8@Pc12>, <20111128103716.Q66195@shell.lmi.net> <4ED3726C.234.7326E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <22105F00-BD6F-4DFD-8DAD-8924B0301D3D@gmail.com> On Nov 28, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Nov 2011 at 11:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Surely you can reduce it to much less than 12 lines in "high level" >> languages! > > High level? For me, it's usually faster to use DEBUG on the file and > write a little code than to go looking for a program. In Python, you could do the following interactively (it reads the whole thing into memory first, but any modern machine shouldn't have trouble with that, and it's really short): ---- in_data = open("infile.bin", "rb").read() open("even.bin", "wb").write(in_data[0::2]) open("odd.bin", "wb").write(in_data[1::2]) ---- If you wanted to be more memory efficient, you could do it the old-fashioned way, though Python actually gets in your way about it a little bit: ---- infile = open("infile.bin", "rb") outfiles = [open(x, "wb") for x in ["even.bin", "odd.bin"]] while infile.peek(): for f in outfiles: f.write(infile.read(1)) ---- That also has the benefit of fairly easily allowing arbitrary interleaving (if you had 4 ROMS for a 32-bit system, say). There's probably a nicer way of doing it than using file.peek(), but since there's no feof() equivalent for the file object, it'll do. - Dave From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 14:53:21 2011 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:53:21 -0700 Subject: Need: Intel "ISIS-II" development stuff for PC (DOS) In-Reply-To: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> References: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4ED3F4C1.2010706@gmail.com> On 11/28/2011 5:05 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hello everybody, > > I came across some MCS-48 SW project which I have to get into active > maintenance again. I have assembly source and listings. And some DOS > batch files wich run commands like C:\ISIS\ASM80\HEXOBJ. And there are > strange .CSD files which seem to contain some kind of build rules > similar to a makefile. > > In the listings there's mentioned an ISIS-II ASM48 assembler. And an > ISIS-II linker as well. I *have* to get that stuff up and working again. > > What I assume: > > - ISIS-II is an Intel Intellec's OS. > - The Tools from ISIS-II have been ported to MS-DOS but still call > themselves "ISIS-II" in the listings they produce. > > Am I right? > > Does anybody have the software? > > Heeeelp, I'm lost! > > > It would be very nice if one of this list could help me out. Any input > welcome! > > > > Kind regards, > > Philipp > I think Intel sold their development software to BSO (Boston Systems Something or other) that might have ported it to other OSes like MS-DOS - I don't believe Intel ever did. We transitioned from doing software development on Intel blue boxes to VAXen which also hosted the Intel tools. I have a couple of 8 inch ISIS-II system disks, a couple of fortran 80 disks, a disk with adventure (colossal cave), an mcs48 development disk (asm48, ice49, ctl49, etc), plm80, credit (editor), runoff, strtrk, ice85, etc, etc. I'm reasonably certain I have mcs-51 development tools, too. All total 14 disks. It looks like there are some things that aren't archived on bitsavers.org. I'd love to gift them to an organization for archival. Bob. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Nov 28 15:24:52 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:24:52 +0100 Subject: Need: Intel "ISIS-II" development stuff for PC (DOS) In-Reply-To: <4ED3F4C1.2010706@gmail.com> References: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> <4ED3F4C1.2010706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ED3FC24.7000303@hachti.de> Hi Rob, Am 28.11.2011 21:53, schrieb Rob Doyle: > I have a couple of 8 inch ISIS-II system disks, a couple of fortran > 80 disks, a disk with adventure (colossal cave), an mcs48 development > disk (asm48, ice49, ctl49, etc), plm80, credit (editor), runoff, strtrk, > ice85, etc, etc. I'm reasonably certain I have mcs-51 development > tools, too. All total 14 disks. > > It looks like there are some things that aren't archived on > bitsavers.org. I'd love to gift them to an organization for archival. I have seen some ISIS-II stuff on bitsavers - but at leaset the MCS-48 part was missing! So now I still have no idea how to run the stuff from MS-DOS without need for an Intel development box. I actually know that exactly this *has* been done for the project I'm working at. Kind regards, Philipp From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Nov 28 15:26:59 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:26:59 +0100 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: <20111128104704.GD16040@brevard.conman.org> References: <20111128082559.4c396c8c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20111128104704.GD16040@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20111128222659.a07440ef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 05:47:05 -0500 Sean Conner wrote: > Chuck's is more portable I think, to non-Unix systems. Yes, and does cruel things like for () { write( fd, buf, 1); } OK, you may do things like this on DOS, but on anything else system call overhead for every single byte will bite you. Portability is allways a trae off. On Unix mmap(2) is the most efficient way of IO. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 28 15:58:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:58:51 -0800 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: <22105F00-BD6F-4DFD-8DAD-8924B0301D3D@gmail.com> References: , <4ED3726C.234.7326E1@cclist.sydex.com>, <22105F00-BD6F-4DFD-8DAD-8924B0301D3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ED3939B.20362.F4C5DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2011 at 15:39, David Riley wrote: > In Python, you could do the following interactively (it reads the > whole thing into memory first, but any modern machine shouldn't have > trouble with that, and it's really short): Anyone got an APL version? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 28 15:23:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 21:23:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <201111272117.QAA01528@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 27, 11 04:17:12 pm Message-ID: > > > I've also seen a moulder US 115V plug wit hthe earth pin cut off, > > presumably so it would go into a 2 pin socket. Ouch!. > > Ouch indeed. I've got one of those. Well, not "cut off", more like > "pulled out" - there's a hole in the plastic of the right size to hold Mine was cut off, you cna see a stub of the pin in the moulding. > the missing pin. I've been wondering what to do with it; the thing on > the other end of the cord is a six-outlet power bar, which would be > convenient, but I'm not comfortable using such a thing without working Can you dismantle the power strip to make sure hte ground is connencted between the sockets and to the input cable at that end? If so, why not just rempalce the plug? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 28 15:26:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 21:26:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <201111272123.QAA01627@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Nov 27, 11 04:23:00 pm Message-ID: > > > [T]hat's not the point I was making. The electrical parts -- the > > contacts, are the same in the normal and the 'hot codition' ones, and > > yet the former was rated at 6A and the latter at 10A. Why the > > difference? > > > Now, I suppose the hot condtion ones could stand the contacts running > > hotter so they could carry more current, but IMHO if the contacts of > > a connector are getting that hot, it's underrated. > > Thoughts: > > (1) In some cases it may well run hot even if the contact is good, if > it is thermally close to something that's _supposed_ to run hot (a > teakettle heating element comes to mind). Sure, that was the original reason for the 'hot condition' version of the connector. One that could be used in an hot envrionment, such as on a kettle. > > (2) What's the problem with running hot (even if due to poor contact), > if everything close enough to be affected is designed to run that hot? It's a waste of power, and it also means there's a voltage drop across the pin/socket. This mightcause problems. > > (3) If something goes slightly wrong and it starts running hotter than > it should, it's better if everything can stand it until someone notices > and deals with it. The higher the device's draw, the hotter a poor > contact will run. In other words, it's basically safety headroom. True. My real qustion is that originally the 'normal one was rated at 6A, the 'hot codition' one, which is identically electrically, was rated at 10A. Maybe the latter could carry more current becasue it could get hotter, but I don't like it... Now, a lot of 'normal' ones seem to be rated at 10A, although they appear to be unchanged from the older 6A versions. My first guess is that the original 6A rating as a very conservative one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 28 15:02:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 21:02:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <20111127123742.G66195@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 27, 11 12:42:17 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > I normally carry a couple of known-good mains leads in my toolkit when I > > do repairs. Alogn with any other 'standard' cables that I suspect I might > > need. The katter deoebd ib wgat U am working on, if it's an HP machien > > nive ruggt gabd ibe ti tge ruggt 'move right hand one to the right'? > I'm sorry, I'll type that again. I normally carry a couple of known-good mains leads in my toolkit when I do repairs. Along with any other 'standard' cables that I suspect I might need. The latter depends on what I am working on, if it's an HP machine -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 28 15:47:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 21:47:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <10668FE0-7F19-4027-B1BE-E0E1D95DC3EB@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 27, 11 04:24:33 pm Message-ID: > I think I've also seen that groove fitted to electronic equipment that > requires a 15A outlet, though it's really not the right plug. The > Wikipedia article has nice pictures of all the standard IEC end > connectors, and I think I've seen all but one or two of them in real > use, which is surprising. I've certainly seen a lot of them, includign the higher-current ones. I think my Zilog S8000 machine has such a mains connector. > I actually have a very nice book by Morgan Jones on tube/valve amp > construction which details all of those requirements. It's the first > exposure I ever had to UK grounding requirements, and my first thought > was, "Wow, I guess they had electrical engineers come up with their > electrical safety requirements". I don't think we have anywhere close Actually that's true. The electrical safety rules came from the IEE (Institute of Electrical Enginenrs, now renamed) > to that level of safety requirement here in the US for our electric > equipment (and if we do, I don't think it's enforced often). I beelive you can break the rules for prototypes,homebrew devices, etc. Howev,er I try to avoid doing so (obviously there are times when prototyping that yuou have live parts exposed, etc). I do amke sure anything I build is properly earthed. 204V shocks are unpleasant if you're lucky, if you are not lucky, you don't feel a thing -- ever again. > I don't think fitting 2-prong outlets is allowed by building code > here, either, though I can't imagine why anyone would want to anyway. > Our three-prong outlets are backwards-compatible with the 2-prong plugs, > which does lead to idiots prying off the ground prong of many plugs to As I mentioned in anotehr message, I've seen that :-( > make them fit in 2-prong outlets. It's a typical response to the square > peg/round hole problem: apply more force! Err, yes... As an aside, the common mains plug/socket over hera has rectangualr pis, specifically to make it incompatible with the earlier round pin ones. > > I did see a two-prong outlet in a hostel bathroom in Edinburgh > recently; no idea how up-to-code that was, but it did have a prominent > sign that said "for shavers only". Yes. that type is allowed, in fact it;s the only type of socket allowed in a bathroom (defined as a room containign a fixed bath or shower). The reason is that the socket contains a double-wound isolating transformer (abotu 20VA rating). Some years ago one of the 'pounds shops' (equivalent of dollar stores) over here had some of said sockets on sale (I guess they were bankrupt stock or something). I bought all I could find. A 20VA mains isolating transfomer (with the cecondary tapped at 115V, since said shaver sockets often ahve a 115V outlet too) was well worth a pound ;-) > > > Yes, I've seen such adapters. I've also seen a moulder US 115V plug wit > > hthe earth pin cut off, presumably so it would go into a 2 pin socket. > > Ouch!. > > The adaptors, when installed PROPERLY (which is a royal pain to do a > lot of the time, as the screw eye isn't always sized just right, and of > course very few people actually check with a meter to make sure the > junction box is grounded) work more or less fine. There are Tha'ts the main problem IMHO. Said adapters are only safe if the screw is earthed (and if it is, why wasn't a 3 pin socket installed?). IF the screw is earthe,d then of course the adapter is fine, it's equivalent, really, to a 3 pin socket. > easily-obtained, cheap neon light devices over here (I'm sure they're > available everywhere else, too) which light up with different > combinations for different circuit faults (including proper wiring). Yes, they exist over here too. The circuit is beacially a delta of neone and series resisotrs, often with a couple of otehr lad resisotrs so tht 2 neons in series will not strike. They indcate any signle wire being disconencted, lvei/neutral swapped, etc. They're not ahrd to get, and there have been projects to build then in the magazinse over the years. > They're the size of a stubby screwdriver, cost a few dollars, and fit > nicely in a toolbox; I don't understand why everyone doesn't have one. Probably for the same reason that not everyone has a multimeter, a solderign iron, etc :-). > > > Ther'es one possible hazard over here. The normal domestic power cirucit > > is called a 'ring main'. As the name implies its a ring of cable and you > > can fit as many 13A socket outlets onto it as you like (there are > > restrictions as to the floor area it can cover, etc). The cable is rated > > at 21A (IIRC) so the circuit can theoretically carry 42A (2 paralell > > paths as it's a ring), it's fused at 30A in the 'consumer unit' (aka fuse > > box)). > > > Anyway, since 30A is a ridiculaously high current rating for portable > > appliances, there's a cartridge fuse in the plug. These exist in a number > > of current ratings, but only 3A and 13A are commonly used. > > That's actually my favorite feature of UK power plugs (that and the > fact that they're occasionally larger than the equipment they power). > The built-in fuse is a nice feautr,e sure. It means that a failure of the plugged-in device, even a dead short in the cable, notmally only blows the fuse i nthe plug and you don't have to go to the consumer unit to change the fuse. > > The worse hazard is that I have a mains lead which has what appears to be > > a UK 13A plug on one end (and will fit a normal UK mains socket) and an > > IEC 320 connector on the other, but _no_ cartridge fuse in the moulded-on > > plug. That is IMHO lethal over here. I believe it was made for use in > > some other country which was once under British rule and which adopted > > the same mains socket on a 15A radial circuit (one cable per socket > > outlet, each socket indvidually fused in the consumer unit). In that > > application you don't need the fuse in the plug. > > I once received a PowerPC evaluation board which (surprisingly) came > with an ATX power supply with IEC cords for both the US and the UK. The > cord didn't have a fuse, which surprised me, but perhaps the kit was > made up by someone unfamiliar with the regulations? I wonder if that cable was actually intended for use in the UK, or in whichever country it is that uses said socket son a radial circuit? I would not be happy using it over here, unless plugged into a fused mult-socket block (there is a common multiple socket over here, what you cal la power strip, whth 4 13A sockets in parallel and a 13A fuse on the incoming feed (which is generally connected to a 13A plug). You use them to run several low-power devices from one wall socket, of course. In that case, an unfused plug plugged into such a board is not a major safety hazard, since the incoming feed is fused at 13A). -tony > > > - Dave > > > > From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 16:22:41 2011 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:22:41 -0700 Subject: Need: Intel "ISIS-II" development stuff for PC (DOS) In-Reply-To: <4ED3FC24.7000303@hachti.de> References: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> <4ED3F4C1.2010706@gmail.com> <4ED3FC24.7000303@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4ED409B1.6010501@gmail.com> On 11/28/2011 2:24 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Am 28.11.2011 21:53, schrieb Rob Doyle: >> I have a couple of 8 inch ISIS-II system disks, a couple of fortran >> 80 disks, a disk with adventure (colossal cave), an mcs48 development >> disk (asm48, ice49, ctl49, etc), plm80, credit (editor), runoff, strtrk, >> ice85, etc, etc. I'm reasonably certain I have mcs-51 development >> tools, too. All total 14 disks. >> >> It looks like there are some things that aren't archived on >> bitsavers.org. I'd love to gift them to an organization for archival. > > I have seen some ISIS-II stuff on bitsavers - but at leaset the MCS-48 > part was missing! > > So now I still have no idea how to run the stuff from MS-DOS without > need for an Intel development box. > I actually know that exactly this *has* been done for the project I'm > working at. > > Kind regards, > > Philipp > I *have* the MCS-48 tool set for ISIS-II on an 8 inch floppy. As far as I know, all that stuff predates MS-DOS. I know that there was an ISIS-II emulator/simulator for CPM. There is also one for UNIX. See: http://www.seasip.info/Unix/Thames/thames.html Maybe there was one for MS-DOS? Rob. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 28 16:35:23 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:35:23 +0000 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED40CAB.4040304@dunnington.plus.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>> need. The katter deoebd ib wgat U am working on, if it's an HP machien >> nive ruggt gabd ibe ti tge ruggt > > 'move right hand one to the right'? > > I'm sorry, I'll type that again. Or to put it another way, "I'm sorry, I'll read that again." (Fred might get the joke; I expect Tony will) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 28 17:05:01 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:05:01 -0600 Subject: Sparc Ultra 2 wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SUN collectors, This announcement below just came out on the SwRI internal email. I don't know how they'd feel about buying an outside machine; pretty sure they'd be OK with borrowing it if you are. Let me know if you have a suitable machine to lend/rent/sell, and I'll talk to the Division 9 folks to see whether they are interested. We are in San Antonio Texas, 78238 Division 09 is in need of a couple of Sun Ultrasparc 2 systems. An Ultra 60 or better is preferable. The following system specs are preferred, but all offers would be appreciated: 1GB of RAM or more 30GB HDD 10baseT, 10mbps Ethernet or better. Solaris 8. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 28 17:22:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:22:23 -0800 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: <10668FE0-7F19-4027-B1BE-E0E1D95DC3EB@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Nov 27, 11 04:24:33 pm, Message-ID: <4ED3A72F.23340.14140E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2011 at 21:47, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder if that cable was actually intended for use in the UK, or in > whichever country it is that uses said socket son a radial circuit? I > would not be happy using it over here, unless plugged into a fused > mult-socket block (there is a common multiple socket over here, what > you cal la power strip, whth 4 13A sockets in parallel and a 13A fuse > on the incoming feed (which is generally connected to a 13A plug). You > use them to run several low-power devices from one wall socket, of > course. In that case, an unfused plug plugged into such a board is not > a major safety hazard, since the incoming feed is fused at 13A). Lately I've seen some Chinese-made 2-prong gizmos that are being sold as being compatible with unearthed/ungrounded US and Australian sockets. The blades of the plug can be rotated to assume either V- shape or parallel orientation. The sockets on those devices are even more bizarre. They will accept flat blades (either orientation) or round prongs on all three (2 current-carrying, one protective), even though there is no third prong on the associated plug. It carries the Chinese CCC mark as well as the looks-just-like-a-European-CE- mark China Export CE mark. Scares the bejeezus out of me. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 28 17:25:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:25:02 -0800 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <4ED40CAB.4040304@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4ED40CAB.4040304@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4ED3A7CE.12457.143AB9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2011 at 22:35, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Or to put it another way, "I'm sorry, I'll read that again." > (Fred might get the joke; I expect Tony will) I'm sorry--I haven't a clue. Maybe I should ask Samanatha. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 28 17:34:45 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:34:45 -0700 Subject: PROMS In-Reply-To: <4ED3939B.20362.F4C5DD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ED3726C.234.7326E1@cclist.sydex.com>, <22105F00-BD6F-4DFD-8DAD-8924B0301D3D@gmail.com> <4ED3939B.20362.F4C5DD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4ED3939B.20362.F4C5DD at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Anyone got an APL version? TECO ftw -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dmabry at mich.com Mon Nov 28 17:46:22 2011 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 18:46:22 -0500 Subject: Need: Intel "ISIS-II" development stuff for PC (DOS) In-Reply-To: <4ED409B1.6010501@gmail.com> References: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> <4ED3F4C1.2010706@gmail.com><4ED3FC24.7000303@hachti.de> <4ED409B1.6010501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ED41D4E.6090507@mich.com> Rob Doyle said the following on 11/28/2011 5:22 PM: > On 11/28/2011 2:24 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Hi Rob, >> >> Am 28.11.2011 21:53, schrieb Rob Doyle: >>> I have a couple of 8 inch ISIS-II system disks, a couple of fortran >>> 80 disks, a disk with adventure (colossal cave), an mcs48 development >>> disk (asm48, ice49, ctl49, etc), plm80, credit (editor), runoff, >>> strtrk, >>> ice85, etc, etc. I'm reasonably certain I have mcs-51 development >>> tools, too. All total 14 disks. >>> >>> It looks like there are some things that aren't archived on >>> bitsavers.org. I'd love to gift them to an organization for archival. >> >> I have seen some ISIS-II stuff on bitsavers - but at leaset the MCS-48 >> part was missing! >> >> So now I still have no idea how to run the stuff from MS-DOS without >> need for an Intel development box. >> I actually know that exactly this *has* been done for the project I'm >> working at. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Philipp >> > > I *have* the MCS-48 tool set for ISIS-II on an 8 inch floppy. As far > as I know, all that stuff predates MS-DOS. > > I know that there was an ISIS-II emulator/simulator for CPM. There > is also one for UNIX. See: > > http://www.seasip.info/Unix/Thames/thames.html > > Maybe there was one for MS-DOS? > > Rob. > > > There is an emulator for MS-DOS. At least two that I know of. One came from Intel and I don't remember where the other one came from. I can email that easily. I will have to look a bit for the MCS-48 stuff, but I know I have it. Will have to cable up my Intel Development System to a PC and use Kermit to transfer them. Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 18:44:40 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 19:44:40 -0500 Subject: Expansion memory boards (was: Interpreting Vaxstation 3100 memory error) In-Reply-To: References: <4ED1F657.3030009@mail.msu.edu> <4ED3279F.30009@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Richard wrote: >> I'm not well versed in memory design, but you might get it to work with >> some buffer circuitry that kept the memory refreshed properly, even if it's >> doing nothing for 7 out of 8 cycles. > > Yes, sorry I wasn't explicit about what sort of design I was > imagining. I was definitely feeling that there would need to be some > sort of controller on the memory board that mediates between the host > and the modern memory parts -- something to match the timings between > the two worlds. > > I wasn't thinking that just hooking the modern chips up straight to > the vintage busses was going to do the trick. Absolutely. For something newer, like a VAX with the direct memory bus (I haven't actually looked at it, so I may well be wrong), it should be fairly simple. For UNIBUS/QBUS boards (including PMI, as far as I know), the drivers for 120-ohm open-collector buses are a bit of an issue. You can hack them together with 74AS641 and 74AS760, but I haven't done much testing on either of these to see if they're reasonable for actual buses (especially really long ones). The thresholds on them are also not 100% compatible with the DEC standard, though they'll probably do for most real-world situations. One of these days, I need to make up a simple test board to stick in my backplane to run some simple bus compatibility tests. There was a thread either here or on comp.sys.dec a while ago about some other possible ICs with built-in series terms which looked interesting... anyone remember what they were? - Dave From randall.kindig at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 19:35:57 2011 From: randall.kindig at gmail.com (Randall.kindig) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 20:35:57 -0500 Subject: FS or trade: (4) Atari 1040ST & (1) Mega ST2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A749E1E-8018-4B4E-84E2-5798EA287064@gmail.com> I'm very interested in either of the machines. I had an ST in the day, and wanted to have one again. I don't have any of the items you wanted. What do you want for either machine? Thanks Randy Sent from my iPad On Nov 28, 2011, at 2:21 PM, "auringer tds.net" wrote: > This Atari stuff falls outside my areas of interest. I would like to > find loving new homes for the following: > > (4) Atari 1040ST computers w/SM124 monitor and mouse. One has the > original box. Some docs. > (1) Atari Mega ST2 > > See: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157624529916313/ for pictures. > > Location: Madison, WI 53714 > > I will consider offers of money or items from my want list below: > > Zilog Zeus distribution tape > VAXStation 2000 (so I can format drives for my MicroVAX IIs) > Drive sled for SGI 4D/25 > Compact 6U VME chassis & power supply > Internal SCSI hard drive for IBM Thinkpad Power 850 > PC532 motherboard or complete system > Hewlett Packard 700 series VME computer > Interesting VME & Multibus SBCs and cards > Sun Microsystems 386i - preferably a /250 > IBM PC/RT system > AT&T {3B2/300,3B2/310,3B2/400} > > -Jon > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Nov 29 02:52:07 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 00:52:07 -0800 Subject: KSR 28 on Ebay Message-ID: <4ED49D37.9070402@jwsss.com> A friend mentioned that he knew of someone who was selling off some items he had including a Teletype. I told him I'd pass it along to the list, as I thought there would be people interested here. I have no direct connection to this sale, just passing it on. He is local to me in Orange County, Ca. Jim 320803364119 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 29 07:07:16 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 07:07:16 -0600 Subject: KSR 28 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4ED49D37.9070402@jwsss.com> References: <4ED49D37.9070402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201111291314.pATDEVgX085252@billy.ezwind.net> At 02:52 AM 11/29/2011, jim s wrote: >A friend mentioned that he knew of someone who was selling off some items he had including a Teletype. I told him I'd pass it along to the list, as I thought there would be people interested here. Yes, that's a killer pristine Model 28. The Greenkeys list was quite excited. I'm sure it'll have a buyer. - John From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 29 08:00:26 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:00:26 +0100 Subject: Need: Intel "ISIS-II" development stuff for PC (DOS) In-Reply-To: <4ED41D4E.6090507@mich.com> References: <4ED3791C.2080509@hachti.de> <4ED3F4C1.2010706@gmail.com><4ED3FC24.7000303@hachti.de> <4ED409B1.6010501@gmail.com> <4ED41D4E.6090507@mich.com> Message-ID: <4ED4E57A.2090301@hachti.de> > There is an emulator for MS-DOS. At least two that I know of. One came > from Intel and I don't remember where the other one came from. > > I can email that easily. I will have to look a bit for the MCS-48 stuff, > but I know I have it. Will have to cable up my Intel Development System > to a PC and use Kermit to transfer them. Thanks for all your help! I've read the emulator document. Sounds very reasonable. In my project, I found batch files of the following form: > @ECHO OFF > ECHO Batch assembly of assembly files (*.SRC) > ECHO. > ECHO. > KDI BATCH C:\IBIS\PROJECTNAME\SUBPROJECT\CSD\KLASM(%1) > ECHO. > BEEP > ECHO. > ECHO. > PAUSE This seems to correspond with the KLASM.CSD file that looks much like: > ; DO ASM(SRC filename) Name: KLASM.CSD Date: XX.XX.XX > ; Assembly call > ; > BATCH :F8:projxxx > CONTLINE ON > ASM48 :F2:%0.SRC & > OBJECT(:F3:%0.HEX) PRINT(:F4:%0.LST) & > MACROFILE NOCOND NOSYMBOLS PAGELENGTH(66) > CONTLINE OFF > C:\ISIS\ASM80\HEXOBJ :F3:%0.HEX TO :F3:%0.OBJ > ; But... If I'd use the emulator the way it's meant and even with that CSD thing - why is there a DOS path in the file?!? And what or who is KDI? I'm still quite helpless... Seen anything of that before? Regards, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 29 08:04:56 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:04:56 +0100 Subject: KSR 28 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201111291314.pATDEVgX085252@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4ED49D37.9070402@jwsss.com> <201111291314.pATDEVgX085252@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4ED4E688.50705@hachti.de> > Yes, that's a killer pristine Model 28. The Greenkeys list was > quite excited. I'm sure it'll have a buyer. It looks really like new. And it *will* be sold. And it will be sold for $$$. But not to me - I prefer using model 15/Lo15 when it comes to 5 bit. From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Nov 29 14:27:07 2011 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:27:07 -0500 Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED5401B.5020400@netscape.net> Did anyone on the list win the Microsoft OS/2 1.1 auction that closed a few weeks ago? I would dearly like to get images of those disks... Jim From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 29 15:07:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 14:07:11 -0700 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives Message-ID: What's the best way to do this? I believe I have vintage PCs with ISA slots and ST-506 hard drive controllers, so that may be an option. However, the drives I want to archive are not from a PC system, but have the ST-506 electrical interface. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From oe5ewl at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 15:20:59 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 22:20:59 +0100 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Richard, Maybe you can use Linux/Unix on an older PC with ISA slots for this job. If the Disk Controller you plan to use can be used with these Systems. But, it may help you, if you could specify what System was originally used to fill the ST506s with Data. A lot of nice guys are here with most of the by then common (spoken of the 506s) and even very exotic computer systems in their collections. I assume there's a good chance that someone here can help you out. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/11/29 Richard > What's the best way to do this? > > I believe I have vintage PCs with ISA slots and ST-506 hard drive > controllers, so that may be an option. > > However, the drives I want to archive are not from a PC system, but > have the ST-506 electrical interface. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 29 15:45:31 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:45:31 -0800 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED5527B.4090804@bitsavers.org> On 11/29/11 1:07 PM, Richard wrote: > What's the best way to do this? > you will need to use a device like a diskferret, once Philip releases the MFM HD version From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 16:02:08 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 14:02:08 -0800 Subject: Archiving Xebec S1410 / S1410A controlled ST-506 drives Message-ID: As a follow up to Richard's question, does anyone have any experience archiving an Xebec S1410 / S1410A SASI controlled drive from a relatively modern system? If the SASI controller doesn't support the standard SCSI Inquiry and Read Capacity commands I wouldn't expect that you could simply connect it to a SCSI host controller on a Linux box and "dd" the drive contents to a disk image file. -Glen From drb at msu.edu Tue Nov 29 16:23:34 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 17:23:34 -0500 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 29 Nov 2011 14:07:11 MST.) References: Message-ID: <20111129222334.857E5AFEAA5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > What's the best way to do this? > I believe I have vintage PCs with ISA slots and ST-506 hard drive > controllers, so that may be an option. > However, the drives I want to archive are not from a PC system, but have > the ST-506 electrical interface. MFM drives are not portable across controller models. And at least sometimes, they're not even portable across examples of a given model of controller. Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up the cable to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits. As Al said, you need a discferret or similar product, unless you can figure out how to run its native controller. De From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 29 15:36:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 21:36:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <4ED40CAB.4040304@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 28, 11 10:35:23 pm Message-ID: > > I'm sorry, I'll type that again. > > Or to put it another way, "I'm sorry, I'll read that again." > (Fred might get the joke; I expect Tony will) Why do you think I phrased it that way in the first place, you Goon? (:-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 29 15:43:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 21:43:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <4ED3A72F.23340.14140E7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 28, 11 03:22:23 pm Message-ID: > Lately I've seen some Chinese-made 2-prong gizmos that are being sold > as being compatible with unearthed/ungrounded US and Australian > sockets. The blades of the plug can be rotated to assume either V- > shape or parallel orientation. The sockets on those devices are even > more bizarre. They will accept flat blades (either orientation) or > round prongs on all three (2 current-carrying, one protective), even > though there is no third prong on the associated plug. It carries > the Chinese CCC mark as well as the looks-just-like-a-European-CE- > mark China Export CE mark. We get those over here too, with a 13A BS1363 socket on the back, which looks as though it would alsdo take a 2 pin shaver plug.. They often come as a set of 2 adapters. One has the flat pins which can be rotated as you describe to fit USA or Australian sockets -- this type makes no connection to the rarth pin. It has moulded into it 'Class II appliances only' [This meand double-insulated - -ARD]. The other fits the German mains sockets, it has 2 round plins and is so arragned that the earth pin of the UK mains plug wioll end up in contact with the earthing spring contact of the German socket. > Scares the bejeezus out of me. I don't like them much, but I've seen worse. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 29 16:29:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 22:29:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Nov 29, 11 02:07:11 pm Message-ID: > > What's the best way to do this? > > I believe I have vintage PCs with ISA slots and ST-506 hard drive > controllers, so that may be an option. > > However, the drives I want to archive are not from a PC system, but > have the ST-506 electrical interface. Because the ST506 (and ST412, which is actually more likely to be what you have) interfce is a low-level wraw one, the dat encoding depends on the controlelr, not the drive. It's entirely possible that no PC controller could make sense of these drives. Am I correxct that a DiskFerret with a simple adapter board can read and store the raw data stream from such a drive and leave the decoding to software o nthe host PC? What machine are they from? Do you know anythign about that machine's hard disk controller? -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 29 17:18:57 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 23:18:57 +0000 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED56861.9000109@philpem.me.uk> On 29/11/11 22:29, Tony Duell wrote: > Am I correxct that a DiskFerret with a simple adapter board can read and > store the raw data stream from such a drive and leave the decoding to > software o nthe host PC? Yes. The ST506 adapters have been prototyped on padboard (using my trusty Roadrunner pen), but I don't have a finished PCB design yet. That's on my "Stuff to do in my copious spare time" list. I have got proof of concept code to decode data written by a Western Digital 10xx MFM controller. Other MFM coding schemes probably won't be much harder to implement, but I have no other controllers to test with (just a WD100x of some description, and I don't even have the manual or low-level format utility). I do have a Seagate controller card, but that's RLL (and I haven't got the drive -- it's in a machine at my father's house -- again, "copious spare time") Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 29 17:13:45 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 23:13:45 +0000 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED56729.60901@dunnington.plus.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> I'm sorry, I'll type that again. >> Or to put it another way, "I'm sorry, I'll read that again." >> (Fred might get the joke; I expect Tony will) > > Why do you think I phrased it that way in the first place, you Goon? (:-)) :-) We could call you Milligna, the well-known typing errro. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 29 17:48:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:48:54 -0800 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <4ED56861.9000109@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4ED56861.9000109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4ED4FEE6.22083.BCCAFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2011 at 23:18, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The ST506 adapters have been prototyped on padboard (using my trusty > Roadrunner pen), but I don't have a finished PCB design yet. That's on > my "Stuff to do in my copious spare time" list. > > I have got proof of concept code to decode data written by a Western > Digital 10xx MFM controller. Other MFM coding schemes probably won't > be much harder to implement, but I have no other controllers to test > with (just a WD100x of some description, and I don't even have the > manual or low-level format utility). This is where I wish we had teleportation--I've got stacks of various old ST506-interface controllers and drives. One I don't have is an ARLL Perstor controller--that might be interesting. Phil, what are you using for your sample rate? I'm thinking that 30MHz might be adequate for the job, since hard drives don't seem to have the ISV issues that floppies do. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 29 18:16:02 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 17:16:02 -0700 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Wolfgang Eichberger writes: > But, it may help you, if you could specify what System was originally used > to fill the ST506s with Data. I haven't investigated to know for sure, but I think the Aesthedes design station has these for the disks. (I doubt anyone on this list has one of these; there is one other in the Netherlands that I know of.) Tektronix 4170 local graphics processor. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 30 05:22:53 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:22:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <20111129222334.857E5AFEAA5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20111129222334.857E5AFEAA5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Nov 2011, Dennis Boone wrote: > controller. Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up the cable > to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits. It is very digital... nothing analog between the drive and the controller. Christian From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Nov 30 06:31:16 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 23:31:16 +1100 Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne Australia Message-ID: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au> Macintosh Revealed - Programming with the Toolbox (Chernicoff) - Vol 2 - Apple Press/Hayden THINK C Object-Oriented Programming Manual - 1991 THINK C Standard Libraries Reference - 1991 THINK Reference - User Manual - 1991 THINK Reference - User Manual - v2.0 - 1992 THINK C User Manual - 1991 LAN WorkPlace for Macintosh User's Guide - First Edition - Oct 1992 HyperTalk Programming (Daniel G. Shafer) "includes Version 1.1" - Hayden Books - 1988 Symantec C++ Compiler Guide v 6 - 1993 THINK C for Macintosh (THINK Class Library Guide) - v 6 1993 Symantec Think C for Macintosh User's Guide - v 6 1993 Symantec C++ For Macintosh (Compiler Guide) - v 7 1994 Symantec C++ for Macintosh (Visual Architect & THINK Class Library Guide) - v 7 1994 Symantec THINK C for Macintosh (User's Guide) - 1994 Steven Levy, Insanely Great: "The Life And Times of Macintosh, The Computer that Changed Everything" - with stamp "Publication/Embargo Date, 1 May 1995, Penguin Books Australia Ltd." Learning Cocoa (O'Reilly) - May 2001 First Edition Using the Macintosh Toolbox with C - Takatsuka/Huxham/Burnard - Sybex 1986 While these are in Melbourne, Australia, if paid by PayPal I can ship anywhere, advise country/city/postal code/zip, and whether surface (60-90 days) or air, but please let me know ASAP. I can't ship anything after about Tuesday 6th Dec. --T From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 06:58:56 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 07:58:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Archiving Xebec S1410 / S1410A controlled ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Nov 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > As a follow up to Richard's question, does anyone have any experience > archiving an Xebec S1410 / S1410A SASI controlled drive from a > relatively modern system? If the SASI controller doesn't support the > standard SCSI Inquiry and Read Capacity commands I wouldn't expect > that you could simply connect it to a SCSI host controller on a Linux > box and "dd" the drive contents to a disk image file. I have sources for a Linux ACB-40xx device driver that might be a basis for getting the Xebec working. However: - It's for Linux kernel version 1.2.9 circa-1994 - The Adaptec ACB-40xx boards read their geometry information from a reserved area on the drive, while the Xebec required this either hard-coded in EPROM or set by the host at power up. If you are interested in hacking this into shape, drop me e-mail privately and I'll send you a tarball. Steve -- From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Nov 30 08:46:40 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:46:40 -0500 Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> References: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> Message-ID: <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> I've updated the list below, and I've got a question for everyone. So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines? Time of year? Economy? Priced too high? Aliens? Everyone already has one? I'm genuinely curious because when I've done this before I've managed to clean out pretty well and this time seemed a little sparse. Brian On 11/25/2011 01:09 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Hey everyone! > > I need to raise some money for gifts this year so I'm cleaning out some of > the systems I don't play with any more. > > Terms: > * I'm in Bloomington, IN (47408) > * Everything works as of the last time I turned them on > * Things that are shipped: Payment via paypal + actual costs for shipping > * Things that aren't shipped: Cash only, and I can meet within a 50 mile > radius or so. That means the south side of Indy, Terre Haute, etc. > * If it seems too high, make me an offer. Of course, if it seems to low you > can offer too :) > > > > > * Sun Ultra 5 ($40, will ship) > 333 MHz UltraSPARC IIi, 256M RAM, CDROM, Floppy, Needs ATA HD > > * IBM RS/6000 43p 7248 ($20, will ship) > 133 MHz PPC 604, 96M RAM, 2.2G SCSI Disk, CDROM > > * DECserver 200/MC ($25, will ship) > 8 db25 ports > > * 21" NeXT MegaPixel Color ($25) > Model N4005A, 13w3 connector > > * Kaypro 4/84 ($150) > a: 5.25", b: 3.5", original disks for: cp/m 2.2g, basic-80, microplan, > c-basic, datastar, reportstar, calcstar, wordstar, mailmerge, s-basic, > suprterm,dbase ii; looks like a pretty full set of manuals. I have the > 2nd 5.25" drive if you want it as well. Broken right hand keyboard latch. > > * Amiga 1000 System ($350) > In original box with manuals. 256K expansion, 1M side expansion, > kickstart/workbench 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 (originals and copies, some disks fail > due to age, but I could boot 1.1 and 1.3). Zenith color composite monitor, > and misc software. > > * Apple IIgs System ($100) > 3.5" and 5.25" drives. System 5.0.4 software plus lots of educational stuff. > 12" color monitor. Owner's reference and getting started guide. > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 09:06:11 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 10:06:11 -0500 Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> References: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <754D10A7-0F18-4EE9-9B60-0CF20FE3BC90@gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I've updated the list below, and I've got a question for everyone. > > So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines? Time of year? Economy? Priced too high? Aliens? Everyone already has one? > > I'm genuinely curious because when I've done this before I've managed to clean out pretty well and this time seemed a little sparse. For me, it's a combination of the economy and the fact that my wife will kill me if I bring another system into the house before we move to a bigger one (she doesn't mind the hobby, but we moved to this house knowing it would be temporary because it's small, and we're really feeling it). Personally, I'd love an Amiga or the Ultra 5 (I already have a IIgs), and the prices are good, but the above reasons do it in for me for now. If you're still selling them around April (when we hope to have moved to a bigger place), I'll be interested. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 30 10:24:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:24:18 -0700 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: <20111129222334.857E5AFEAA5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > On Tue, 29 Nov 2011, Dennis Boone wrote: > > controller. Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up the cable > > to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits. > > It is very digital... nothing analog between the drive and the controller. This is confirmed by See pages 20-22. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From barythrin at yahoo.com Wed Nov 30 11:35:08 2011 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:35:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4ED5401B.5020400@netscape.net> Message-ID: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Do you recall what it went for? Version 1.1 and 1.2 are the two with Microsoft taking credit for the OS right? --- On Tue, 11/29/11, Jim Scheef wrote: > From: Jim Scheef > Did anyone on the list win the > Microsoft OS/2 1.1 auction that closed a > few weeks ago? I would dearly like to get images of those > disks... > > Jim > From barythrin at yahoo.com Wed Nov 30 11:43:46 2011 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:43:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1322675026.55173.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> My personal answer would be a significant lack of funds, space, and that I have most of them. I'd imagine it's the target audience here which is a bit small, plus I would certainly guess most of us have a good collection of systems which might include these. Have you tried posting them over at the vintage-computer.com forums? That'll also help get some attention. If that fails there's always the auction site who must not be named. A IIgs seems to yield pretty significant cash overseas although I'm not sure if it's true with a 120v system or why. The IBM is good if they're local :-) Otherwise it's $20 plus $120 or so to ship heh --- On Wed, 11/30/11, Brian Wheeler wrote: > From: Brian Wheeler > Subject: Re: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, November 30, 2011, 8:46 AM > I've updated the list below, and I've > got a question for everyone. > > So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines?? > Time of year? > Economy?? Priced too high?? Aliens?? > Everyone already has one? > > I'm genuinely curious because when I've done this before > I've managed to > clean out pretty well and this time seemed a little > sparse. > > Brian > > > On 11/25/2011 01:09 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > Hey everyone! > > > > I need to raise some money for gifts this year so I'm > cleaning out some of > > the systems I don't play with any more. > > > > Terms: > > * I'm in Bloomington, IN (47408) > > * Everything works as of the last time I turned them > on > > * Things that are shipped:? Payment via paypal + > actual costs for shipping > > * Things that aren't shipped:? Cash only, and I > can meet within a 50 mile > >? ? radius or so.? That means the south > side of Indy, Terre Haute, etc. > > * If it seems too high, make me an offer.? Of > course, if it seems to low you > >? ? can offer too :) > > > > > > > > > > * Sun Ultra 5 ($40, will ship) > >? ? 333 MHz UltraSPARC IIi, 256M RAM, CDROM, > Floppy, Needs ATA HD > > > > * IBM RS/6000 43p 7248 ($20, will ship) > >? ? 133 MHz PPC 604, 96M RAM, 2.2G SCSI Disk, > CDROM > > > > * DECserver 200/MC ($25, will ship) > >? ? 8 db25 ports > > > > * 21" NeXT MegaPixel Color ($25) > >? ? Model N4005A, 13w3 connector > > > > * Kaypro 4/84 ($150) > >? ? a: 5.25", b: 3.5", original disks for: > cp/m 2.2g, basic-80, microplan, > >? ? c-basic, datastar, reportstar, calcstar, > wordstar, mailmerge, s-basic, > >? ? suprterm,dbase ii; looks like a pretty > full set of manuals.? I have the > >? ? 2nd 5.25" drive if you want it as > well.? Broken right hand keyboard latch. > > > > * Amiga 1000 System ($350) > >? ? In original box with manuals.? 256K > expansion, 1M side expansion, > >? ? kickstart/workbench 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 > (originals and copies, some disks fail > >? ? due to age, but I could boot 1.1 and > 1.3).? Zenith color composite monitor, > >? ? and misc software. > > > > * Apple IIgs System ($100) > >? ? 3.5" and 5.25" drives.? System 5.0.4 > software plus lots of educational stuff. > >? ? 12" color monitor.? Owner's > reference and getting started guide. > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 30 11:51:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:51:39 -0500 Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <1322675026.55173.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1322675026.55173.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ED66D2B.2050104@neurotica.com> On 11/30/2011 12:43 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > My personal answer would be a significant lack of funds, space, and that I have most of them. I'd imagine it's the target audience here which is a bit small, plus I would certainly guess most of us have a good collection of systems which might include these. Small target audience...? Man, do you have any idea of how many people are on this mailing list?? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 30 12:28:54 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:28:54 +0000 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <4ED4FEE6.22083.BCCAFE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ED56861.9000109@philpem.me.uk> <4ED4FEE6.22083.BCCAFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ED675E6.3080206@philpem.me.uk> On 29/11/2011 23:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Phil, what are you using for your sample rate? I'm thinking that > 30MHz might be adequate for the job, since hard drives don't seem to > have the ISV issues that floppies do. The current DiscFerret firmware runs at 100MHz fixed, though I plan to add a clock divider to allow e.g. 50MHz and 25MHz sample rates to be selected (which would save a bit of acquisition memory when imaging floppy discs). -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 30 12:38:47 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:38:47 -0700 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <4ED675E6.3080206@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4ED56861.9000109@philpem.me.uk> <4ED4FEE6.22083.BCCAFE@cclist.sydex.com> <4ED675E6.3080206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4ED675E6.3080206 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > On 29/11/2011 23:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Phil, what are you using for your sample rate? I'm thinking that > > 30MHz might be adequate for the job, since hard drives don't seem to > > have the ISV issues that floppies do. > > The current DiscFerret firmware runs at 100MHz fixed, though I plan to > add a clock divider to allow e.g. 50MHz and 25MHz sample rates to be > selected (which would save a bit of acquisition memory when imaging > floppy discs). Since ST-506 is a digital interface, is there any point to digitizing the digital signals as if they were analog signals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 30 13:01:07 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 19:01:07 -0000 Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] References: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <009f01ccaf92$a89b0740$d2505d0a@user8459cef6fa> The Amiga is tempting, but I don't have the space for it. Plus, I'm on the other side of the "pond" so shipping would cost a fair amount of money. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Wheeler" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] > I've updated the list below, and I've got a question for everyone. > > So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines? Time of year? > Economy? Priced too high? Aliens? Everyone already has one? > > I'm genuinely curious because when I've done this before I've managed to > clean out pretty well and this time seemed a little sparse. > > Brian > > > On 11/25/2011 01:09 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > Hey everyone! > > > > I need to raise some money for gifts this year so I'm cleaning out some of > > the systems I don't play with any more. > > > > Terms: > > * I'm in Bloomington, IN (47408) > > * Everything works as of the last time I turned them on > > * Things that are shipped: Payment via paypal + actual costs for shipping > > * Things that aren't shipped: Cash only, and I can meet within a 50 mile > > radius or so. That means the south side of Indy, Terre Haute, etc. > > * If it seems too high, make me an offer. Of course, if it seems to low you > > can offer too :) > > > > > > > > > > * Sun Ultra 5 ($40, will ship) > > 333 MHz UltraSPARC IIi, 256M RAM, CDROM, Floppy, Needs ATA HD > > > > * IBM RS/6000 43p 7248 ($20, will ship) > > 133 MHz PPC 604, 96M RAM, 2.2G SCSI Disk, CDROM > > > > * DECserver 200/MC ($25, will ship) > > 8 db25 ports > > > > * 21" NeXT MegaPixel Color ($25) > > Model N4005A, 13w3 connector > > > > * Kaypro 4/84 ($150) > > a: 5.25", b: 3.5", original disks for: cp/m 2.2g, basic-80, microplan, > > c-basic, datastar, reportstar, calcstar, wordstar, mailmerge, s-basic, > > suprterm,dbase ii; looks like a pretty full set of manuals. I have the > > 2nd 5.25" drive if you want it as well. Broken right hand keyboard latch. > > > > * Amiga 1000 System ($350) > > In original box with manuals. 256K expansion, 1M side expansion, > > kickstart/workbench 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 (originals and copies, some disks fail > > due to age, but I could boot 1.1 and 1.3). Zenith color composite monitor, > > and misc software. > > > > * Apple IIgs System ($100) > > 3.5" and 5.25" drives. System 5.0.4 software plus lots of educational stuff. > > 12" color monitor. Owner's reference and getting started guide. > > From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Nov 30 13:08:27 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:08:27 -0500 Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <009f01ccaf92$a89b0740$d2505d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> <009f01ccaf92$a89b0740$d2505d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4ED67F2B.7020705@indiana.edu> Isn't that almost always the case? Something nifty comes up and it ends up being half a world away. On 11/30/2011 02:01 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > The Amiga is tempting, but I don't have the space for it. Plus, I'm on the > other side of the "pond" so shipping would cost a fair amount of money. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Wheeler" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:46 PM > Subject: Re: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] > > >> I've updated the list below, and I've got a question for everyone. >> >> So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines? Time of year? >> Economy? Priced too high? Aliens? Everyone already has one? >> >> I'm genuinely curious because when I've done this before I've managed to >> clean out pretty well and this time seemed a little sparse. >> >> Brian >> >> >> On 11/25/2011 01:09 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: >>> Hey everyone! >>> >>> I need to raise some money for gifts this year so I'm cleaning out some > of >>> the systems I don't play with any more. >>> >>> Terms: >>> * I'm in Bloomington, IN (47408) >>> * Everything works as of the last time I turned them on >>> * Things that are shipped: Payment via paypal + actual costs for > shipping >>> * Things that aren't shipped: Cash only, and I can meet within a 50 > mile >>> radius or so. That means the south side of Indy, Terre Haute, etc. >>> * If it seems too high, make me an offer. Of course, if it seems to low > you >>> can offer too :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> * Sun Ultra 5 ($40, will ship) >>> 333 MHz UltraSPARC IIi, 256M RAM, CDROM, Floppy, Needs ATA HD >>> >>> * IBM RS/6000 43p 7248 ($20, will ship) >>> 133 MHz PPC 604, 96M RAM, 2.2G SCSI Disk, CDROM >>> >>> * DECserver 200/MC ($25, will ship) >>> 8 db25 ports >>> >>> * 21" NeXT MegaPixel Color ($25) >>> Model N4005A, 13w3 connector >>> >>> * Kaypro 4/84 ($150) >>> a: 5.25", b: 3.5", original disks for: cp/m 2.2g, basic-80, > microplan, >>> c-basic, datastar, reportstar, calcstar, wordstar, mailmerge, > s-basic, >>> suprterm,dbase ii; looks like a pretty full set of manuals. I have > the >>> 2nd 5.25" drive if you want it as well. Broken right hand keyboard > latch. >>> * Amiga 1000 System ($350) >>> In original box with manuals. 256K expansion, 1M side expansion, >>> kickstart/workbench 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 (originals and copies, some > disks fail >>> due to age, but I could boot 1.1 and 1.3). Zenith color composite > monitor, >>> and misc software. >>> >>> * Apple IIgs System ($100) >>> 3.5" and 5.25" drives. System 5.0.4 software plus lots of > educational stuff. >>> 12" color monitor. Owner's reference and getting started guide. >>> From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 14:03:29 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:03:29 -0500 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: , <4ED56861.9000109@philpem.me.uk> <4ED4FEE6.22083.BCCAFE@cclist.sydex.com> <4ED675E6.3080206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <440C07A3-5394-419F-90F3-EDBF99C9DF28@gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Richard wrote: > Since ST-506 is a digital interface, is there any point to digitizing > the digital signals as if they were analog signals? Is it doing that? I read "sampling" as sampling the digital signal. 100MHz ADCs tend to be expensive and hot (not always hot, depending). I don't know anything about the DiscFerret hardware (I should probably look it up), but I imagine 100MHz is the digital sampling frequency, which is perfectly normal for a logic-analyzer-type device. - Dave From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Nov 30 15:28:53 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:28:53 +0000 Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4ED5401B.5020400@netscape.net> Message-ID: I have OS/2 1.0 and 1.1 and both are in IBM slipcases. You need images? I have disks?. -- Ian On 11/29/11 12:27 PM, "Jim Scheef" wrote: >Did anyone on the list win the Microsoft OS/2 1.1 auction that closed a >few weeks ago? I would dearly like to get images of those disks... > >Jim > From barythrin at yahoo.com Wed Nov 30 15:36:12 2011 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:36:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <4ED66D2B.2050104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1322688972.62778.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hmm.. top post.. good and more correct point. In my head I was thinking regular posters and comparing it to other drive-by users on other sites. I forget how many lurkers and archives of the list there have been over the years. To further the conversation though, the two comments on interesting stuff being over the pond or other side of the country always seem to be the case but also kinda re-enforce that idea of it being potentially worth more and more rare to an international market. --- On Wed, 11/30/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > On 11/30/2011 12:43 PM, Sam Onella > wrote: >> imagine it's the target audience here which is a bit small, > > ? Small target audience...?? Man, do you have any > idea of how many people are on this mailing list?? > > ? ? ? ? ? -Dave or bottom post? sweet, I get to add the >>'s myself too. Apparently I *don't* yahoOOOOooo From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 30 15:48:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:48:58 -0800 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: , <4ED675E6.3080206@philpem.me.uk>, Message-ID: <4ED6344A.6122.122A258@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2011 at 11:38, Richard wrote: > Since ST-506 is a digital interface, is there any point to digitizing > the digital signals as if they were analog signals? Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the acquisition rate. In other words, did a read pulse occur in this 33nsec window (30MHz)? Recording each even in terms of ticks of a 30MHz clock from the previous event.. Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 30 14:27:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:27:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <20111129222334.857E5AFEAA5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Nov 29, 11 05:23:34 pm Message-ID: > > MFM drives are not portable across controller models. And at least > sometimes, they're not even portable across examples of a given model of > controller. Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up the cable > to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits. Actually, it's analogue in the time domain, but only 2 voltage levels. The circuitry tconvert the signal from the read head toa digital signal is in the drive (the read amplifier, comparator, monostable, etc). What uou get at the interface conenctor is a stram of pulses, the leading edges of which correspond to magnetic transitions on the disk. The controller has to covert those pulses into parallel words, recognise sector markers, and the like. When writign, it's muchte same dviision. The controller takes words from the host system and serialises them. It also controls when to start/stop writing on the disk. The interface, again, is a digital pulse stream, the conversion from that to the head drive signals is done in the drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 30 14:29:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:29:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: <4ED56729.60901@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 29, 11 11:13:45 pm Message-ID: > > :-) We could call you Milligna, the well-known typing errro. Is a Milligan 10^-3 gans? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 30 16:00:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:00:26 -0800 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <4ED675E6.3080206@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4ED4FEE6.22083.BCCAFE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ED675E6.3080206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4ED636FA.1936.12D22E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2011 at 18:28, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The current DiscFerret firmware runs at 100MHz fixed, though I plan to > add a clock divider to allow e.g. 50MHz and 25MHz sample rates to be > selected (which would save a bit of acquisition memory when imaging > floppy discs). I mention this mostly because a hare-brained idea occurred to me over the holidays. A Catweasel Mark 3 can use a sample clock of 56MHz. Since the amount of data on a track isn't an issue, I wonderred if rigging up a lashup with some RS422 receivers and a MK3 and some way to handle more than 2 heads (printer port?) might be a nice rainy- day project. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 30 15:54:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:54:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> from "Brian Wheeler" at Nov 30, 11 09:46:40 am Message-ID: > So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines? Time of year? > Economy? Priced too high? Aliens? Everyone already has one? In my case it's a combination of : Lack of spare funds. The time of year doens't help with this either. Shipping them would be a problem, ther's an annoyign bit of water i nthe way. Lack of space (seriously, I'd ahve problems findin spacve for another HP calcualtor here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 30 15:56:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:56:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <4ED67F2B.7020705@indiana.edu> from "Brian Wheeler" at Nov 30, 11 02:08:27 pm Message-ID: > > Isn't that almost always the case? Something nifty comes up and it ends > up being half a world away. YEs :-) In several cases the shipping on an E-bay item ahs been 3 or 4 tiems my winning bid. I knew that before I bid, so I am not cmplaining. But it does mean that it has to be soemthing that I really want. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 16:16:21 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:16:21 -0500 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48222C4D-040C-4F23-8E08-69BE29D30330@gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> :-) We could call you Milligna, the well-known typing errro. > > Is a Milligan 10^-3 gans? No, but a milliHelen is the power required to launch one ship. - Dave From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 16:19:58 2011 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:19:58 +0000 Subject: Storing cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 Nov 2011, at 20:29, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> :-) We could call you Milligna, the well-known typing errro. > > Is a Milligan 10^-3 gans? Incidentally, if anyone needs to know the time I think I've got it written on a piece of paper somewhere. Hold on, I think Major Bloodknock borrowed it ;) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 30 16:30:09 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:30:09 +0000 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <4ED6344A.6122.122A258@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ED675E6.3080206@philpem.me.uk>, <4ED6344A.6122.122A258@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ED6AE71.4020105@philpem.me.uk> On 30/11/2011 21:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Nov 2011 at 11:38, Richard wrote: > >> Since ST-506 is a digital interface, is there any point to digitizing >> the digital signals as if they were analog signals? > > Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the acquisition rate. > In other words, did a read pulse occur in this 33nsec window (30MHz)? > Recording each even in terms of ticks of a 30MHz clock from the > previous event.. It doesn't work like that... Acquiring data like that is wasteful -- the width of the pulse which the drive outputs when a flux transition is detected is basically irrelevant and carries no useful information. However, if we know the time between the leading (active-going) edges of the pulses, we can reconstruct the transition stream. Once we have the transition stream at the desired sample rate, we play it through a software implementation of a data separator. Now we have a stream of '0' and '1' bits. Finally we separate these into clock and data bits. The clock bits are compared against the output of an MFM encoder, and used to calculate a "confidence factor" -- the assumed possibility that this really is a valid MFM stream. Dividing the number of "valid" clock bits by the total number of bits produces a confidence factor ranging from 0..1 (floating point). The higher this value, the more likely that the data is MFM. The data bits are separated out, and reconstructed into bytes. These bytes are saved to disc. There's a bit of extra logic 'in the middle' to detect sync words (0x4489 encoded -- SYNC-A1) but that's about it. Cheers, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 30 17:33:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:33:48 -0800 Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <4ED6AE71.4020105@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4ED6344A.6122.122A258@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ED6AE71.4020105@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4ED64CDC.29358.1829F28@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2011 at 22:30, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 30/11/2011 21:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 30 Nov 2011 at 11:38, Richard wrote: > > > >> Since ST-506 is a digital interface, is there any point to > >> digitizing the digital signals as if they were analog signals? > > > > Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the acquisition rate. > > In other words, did a read pulse occur in this 33nsec window > > (30MHz)? Recording each even in terms of ticks of a 30MHz clock from > > the previous event.. > > It doesn't work like that... > > Acquiring data like that is wasteful -- the width of the pulse which > the drive outputs when a flux transition is detected is basically > irrelevant and carries no useful information. However, if we know the > time between the leading (active-going) edges of the pulses, we can > reconstruct the transition stream. Exactly what I was (trying to say)/saying. At 30 MHz every 33nsec window is used to sample for a pulse occurring within the window. You run a counter that counts between such transitions--and store the accumulated count when a transition happens. What the catweasel and countless others have been doing for years. I suspect that the Kyroflux and Deviceside devices do likewise. It can be done with almost any modern microcontroller; no fancy FPGAs needed as most modern microcontrollers contain counters with a "capture" facility triggered automatically. For example, a lowly ATMega running at 16MHz is more than sufficient to get accurate samples to decode a high-density floppy. Similarly, the PWM facility on most microcontrollers is sufficient to simulate a high-density floppy. All you need is a counter, some way to trigger it and some memory to store the counts in. It's not rocket science--in fact, it's mostly software. My apologies if I'm not communicating well. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:00:42 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 19:00:42 -0600 Subject: Archiving Xebec S1410 / S1410A controlled ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED6D1BA.2090509@gmail.com> Glen Slick wrote: > As a follow up to Richard's question, does anyone have any experience > archiving an Xebec S1410 / S1410A SASI controlled drive from a > relatively modern system? If the SASI controller doesn't support the > standard SCSI Inquiry and Read Capacity commands I wouldn't expect > that you could simply connect it to a SCSI host controller on a Linux > box and "dd" the drive contents to a disk image file. I think for starters you'll have problems connecting a SASI device to a SCSI HBA - I've not touched this for a few years, but isn't there an extra phase in the SCSI protocol (not to mention a couple of signals) that just isn't there for SASI? (because SASI was more of a single-device protocol, whereas SCSI supported multiple devices on the bus) When I looked into this it was mainly with one of the Adaptec bridges (which are "SCSI", but lack Inquiry support), but I had a few systems which used the Xebec and OMTI boards, too - my conclusion was that it was easier to build myself a completely-dumb controller and talk to the boards that way, crafting SCSI/SASI commands in software, than it was to try and somehow integrate[1] the boards into a Linux environment at a low level. I got as far as rustling up some hardware, but then moved overseas - so everything's been in storage since then; I'll get back to it one day. [1] one issue was that the Linux kernel - at least then - "offlined" anything that didn't respond to Inquiry at boot, so it wasn't possible to craft sg commands and throw them at the device once booted, even if the device itself was sufficiently SCSI-like to play nicely on the bus. Maybe that's changed these days. Most - possibly all - of these bridge boards seemed to support some form of vendor-unique command to define the device parameters (even if they also did so via board firmware or 'hidden' sectors), so I don't think any lack of a "read capacity" type command would be an issue; it'd be a case of issuing the necessary setup command and then from there treating the device like a linear sequence of blocks. Oh, one other possible gotcha with the Xebec boards - ISTR they supported the notion of running custom firmware according to a vendor's specifications. What I don't know is if that only went as far as initializing device parameters, or if there might be Xebec boards out there with firmware so tweaked that it doesn't follow any of the standard SCSI/SASI command definitions. cheers Jules From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 18:52:08 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:52:08 -0600 Subject: Data General computer Message-ID: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. Maybe an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not sure. No drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory in the next few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone know if there would be any interest? I realize my question is based on pretty sketchy information so far, but that's all I know. -T 434 . [Humor] My school colors were clear. --Steven Wright NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 30 19:13:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:13:24 -0800 Subject: Archiving Xebec S1410 / S1410A controlled ST-506 drives In-Reply-To: <4ED6D1BA.2090509@gmail.com> References: , <4ED6D1BA.2090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ED66434.21692.1DDCBBC@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2011 at 19:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > I think for starters you'll have problems connecting a SASI device to > a SCSI HBA - I've not touched this for a few years, but isn't there an > extra phase in the SCSI protocol (not to mention a couple of signals) > that just isn't there for SASI? (because SASI was more of a > single-device protocol, whereas SCSI supported multiple devices on the > bus) SASI is comparatively dumb compared to SCSI. You should be able to rig up an interface with some random TTL if you have a system with a simple bus (e.g. ISA), or at worst, a microcontroller such as the Arduino. My first hard disk on my 5150 was an SA1001 with a WD SASI-interfaced controller. My PC interface card was less than a half-sized ISA card. I've got a full-length Ampex Megastore SASI interface card for the ISA bus that equally sparse, but includes a 2732 EPROM BIOS extension. --Chuck From hexsane at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:20:52 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 19:20:52 -0600 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Do you know if these are Intel AViiON computers or Motorola 88k based machines? -Matt On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Tom wrote: > I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. Maybe > an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not sure. No > drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory in the next > few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone know if there > would be any interest? I realize my question is based on pretty sketchy > information so far, but that's all I know. > > -T > > > > > > 434 . [Humor] My school colors were clear. --Steven Wright > NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc > LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User > 385531 > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:35:10 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 19:35:10 -0600 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> Tom wrote: > I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. > Maybe an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not > sure. No drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory > in the next few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone > know if there would be any interest? Well the m88k-based systems tickle my interest (for no other reason than the choice of CPU) - I think they switched over to boring ol' Intel at some point, though :-) I don't know how widespread copies of the OS are, and if there are any 'gotchas' involved with rebuilding a machine that's lacking disks... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:41:08 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 19:41:08 -0600 Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> References: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4ED6DB34.30407@gmail.com> Brian Wheeler wrote: > I've updated the list below, and I've got a question for everyone. > > So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines? Time of year? > Economy? Priced too high? Aliens? Everyone already has one? Hmm, I did take note of the VT220, but it's absolutely the worst time of year for me - several family birthdays, Christmas gifts, huge winter heating bills etc.; it gets a lot better come March or April. Plus shipping costs seem to be ridiculous these days, which has a tendency to add a significant amount to any price tag. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 30 19:46:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:46:32 -0500 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ED6DC78.2050100@neurotica.com> On 11/30/2011 08:35 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tom wrote: >> I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. >> Maybe an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not >> sure. No drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory >> in the next few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; >> anyone know if there would be any interest? > > Well the m88k-based systems tickle my interest (for no other reason than > the choice of CPU) - I think they switched over to boring ol' Intel at > some point, though :-) > > I don't know how widespread copies of the OS are, and if there are any > 'gotchas' involved with rebuilding a machine that's lacking disks... I don't know about the gotchas, but I have a copy of DG/UX for 88K. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From hexsane at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:47:29 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 19:47:29 -0600 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: m88k Systems use standard SCSI and can use anything up to 2GB without a problem. I have DG/UX 5.?? on CD and 4.?? on Tape here. -Matt On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > Tom wrote: > >> I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. Maybe >> an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not sure. No >> drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory in the next >> few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone know if there >> would be any interest? >> > > Well the m88k-based systems tickle my interest (for no other reason than > the choice of CPU) - I think they switched over to boring ol' Intel at some > point, though :-) > > I don't know how widespread copies of the OS are, and if there are any > 'gotchas' involved with rebuilding a machine that's lacking disks... > > cheers > > Jules > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:50:26 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 01:50:26 +0000 Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne Australia In-Reply-To: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 30 November 2011 12:31, Toby Thain wrote: > Macintosh Revealed - Programming with the Toolbox (Chernicoff) - Vol 2 - > Apple Press/Hayden > > THINK C Object-Oriented Programming Manual - 1991 > > THINK C Standard Libraries Reference - 1991 > > THINK Reference - User Manual - 1991 > > THINK Reference - User Manual - v2.0 - 1992 > > THINK C User Manual - 1991 > > LAN WorkPlace for Macintosh User's Guide - First Edition - Oct 1992 > > HyperTalk Programming (Daniel G. Shafer) "includes Version 1.1" - Hayden > Books - 1988 > > Symantec C++ Compiler Guide v 6 - 1993 > > THINK C for Macintosh (THINK Class Library Guide) - v 6 1993 > > Symantec Think C for Macintosh User's Guide - v 6 1993 > > Symantec C++ For Macintosh (Compiler Guide) - v 7 1994 > > Symantec C++ for Macintosh (Visual Architect & THINK Class Library Guide) - > v 7 1994 > > Symantec THINK C for Macintosh (User's Guide) - 1994 > > Steven Levy, Insanely Great: "The Life And Times of Macintosh, The Computer > that Changed Everything" - with stamp "Publication/Embargo Date, 1 May 1995, > Penguin Books Australia Ltd." > > Learning Cocoa (O'Reilly) - May 2001 First Edition > > Using the Macintosh Toolbox with C - Takatsuka/Huxham/Burnard - Sybex 1986 > > > > While these are in Melbourne, Australia, if paid by PayPal I can ship > anywhere, advise country/city/postal code/zip, and whether surface (60-90 > days) or air, but please let me know ASAP. I can't ship anything after about > Tuesday 6th Dec. This is the standard response I send out when I see free books on my local Freecycle and Freegle groups. Might be vaguely informative. If I might make a couple of suggestions... I find the following to be better places for free book-trading than Freecycle: http://www.bookmooch.com/ http://www.readitswapit.co.uk/ Personally, I find Bookmooch far and away the best on the Web and have traded a hundred-plus books on it now. Totally free, no catches or strings attached. I am in no way associated with either of them - I am just a happy user (as well as a Freecycler). (Forgive me if you get this more than once. I don't set out to spam people & I apologise if I do, but I send this to anyone trying to Freecycle books in my areas, and sometimes that means I mistakenly send it to someone repeatedly.) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:52:35 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:52:35 -0500 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F5C6755-7B84-41B6-ADA9-60C86B7B4672@gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tom wrote: >> I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. Maybe an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not sure. No drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory in the next few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone know if there would be any interest? > > Well the m88k-based systems tickle my interest (for no other reason than the choice of CPU) - I think they switched over to boring ol' Intel at some point, though :-) > > I don't know how widespread copies of the OS are, and if there are any 'gotchas' involved with rebuilding a machine that's lacking disks... You might even have more luck trying to hack OpenBSD/m88k into working; I hear they've fixed the GCC bug that was breaking it. I've always wanted to play with an m88k system, but again with the lack of space; I'd be interested in building an FPGA emulation, because it's such a clean RISC design that it should be pretty straightforward. I managed to find a copy of the 88100/88200 datasheets, which should be what's necessary to do it. Now to acquire a vast load of spare time... - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:53:43 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:53:43 -0500 Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated] In-Reply-To: <4ED6DB34.30407@gmail.com> References: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> <4ED6DB34.30407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CBF5347-B3D2-45E5-A470-5F80D4DA04A9@gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2011, at 8:41 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Brian Wheeler wrote: >> I've updated the list below, and I've got a question for everyone. >> So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines? Time of year? Economy? Priced too high? Aliens? Everyone already has one? > > Hmm, I did take note of the VT220, but it's absolutely the worst time of year for me - several family birthdays, Christmas gifts, huge winter heating bills etc.; it gets a lot better come March or April. I haven't had to turn on the heat yet this winter because of my machines... don't know if that should be bothering me or not. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:54:00 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 01:54:00 +0000 Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4ED5401B.5020400@netscape.net> References: <4ED5401B.5020400@netscape.net> Message-ID: On 29 November 2011 20:27, Jim Scheef wrote: > Did anyone on the list win the Microsoft OS/2 1.1 auction that closed a > few weeks ago? I would dearly like to get images of those disks... You might find this useful: http://vetusware.com/download/os%202%201.0/?id=7257 http://vetusware.com/download/OS2%201.1/?id=5954 http://vetusware.com/download/OS2%201.2/?id=5535 http://vetusware.com/download/OS2%201.30.1/?id=3532 -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hexsane at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 20:15:04 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:15:04 -0600 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: <8F5C6755-7B84-41B6-ADA9-60C86B7B4672@gmail.com> References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> <8F5C6755-7B84-41B6-ADA9-60C86B7B4672@gmail.com> Message-ID: Last I checked they removed 88k support from binutils completely. That was years ago though. Its one reason I stored my 88k AViiONs away. If they did fix binutils then I will be setting them back up. -Matt On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 7:52 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 30, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Tom wrote: > >> I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. > Maybe an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not sure. > No drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory in the > next few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone know if > there would be any interest? > > > > Well the m88k-based systems tickle my interest (for no other reason than > the choice of CPU) - I think they switched over to boring ol' Intel at some > point, though :-) > > > > I don't know how widespread copies of the OS are, and if there are any > 'gotchas' involved with rebuilding a machine that's lacking disks... > > You might even have more luck trying to hack OpenBSD/m88k into working; I > hear they've fixed the GCC bug that was breaking it. > > I've always wanted to play with an m88k system, but again with the lack of > space; I'd be interested in building an FPGA emulation, because it's such a > clean RISC design that it should be pretty straightforward. I managed to > find a copy of the 88100/88200 datasheets, which should be what's necessary > to do it. > > Now to acquire a vast load of spare time... > > > - Dave > > > From hexsane at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 20:33:28 2011 From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 20:33:28 -0600 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: <8F5C6755-7B84-41B6-ADA9-60C86B7B4672@gmail.com> References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> <8F5C6755-7B84-41B6-ADA9-60C86B7B4672@gmail.com> Message-ID: "...With the help of Mark Kettenis, the toolchain effort eventually produced working binutils and gdb in late may 2004." Wow. It's really been that long? I have been out of the loop. ;) -Matt On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 7:52 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Nov 30, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Tom wrote: > >> I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. > Maybe an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not sure. > No drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory in the > next few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone know if > there would be any interest? > > > > Well the m88k-based systems tickle my interest (for no other reason than > the choice of CPU) - I think they switched over to boring ol' Intel at some > point, though :-) > > > > I don't know how widespread copies of the OS are, and if there are any > 'gotchas' involved with rebuilding a machine that's lacking disks... > > You might even have more luck trying to hack OpenBSD/m88k into working; I > hear they've fixed the GCC bug that was breaking it. > > I've always wanted to play with an m88k system, but again with the lack of > space; I'd be interested in building an FPGA emulation, because it's such a > clean RISC design that it should be pretty straightforward. I managed to > find a copy of the 88100/88200 datasheets, which should be what's necessary > to do it. > > Now to acquire a vast load of spare time... > > > - Dave > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 21:22:15 2011 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:22:15 -0500 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> <8F5C6755-7B84-41B6-ADA9-60C86B7B4672@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92D726F8-FBBB-43CF-BDD4-214DFCF7C3AA@gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2011, at 9:33 PM, Matthew Hudson wrote: > "...With the help of Mark Kettenis, the toolchain effort eventually > produced working binutils and gdb in late may 2004." > > Wow. It's really been that long? I have been out of the loop. ;) Well, also, the *BSD projects (especially OpenBSD) tend not to use the mainline toolchain and instead extensively modify what they have. I think the m88k port is still semi-actively maintained. - Dave From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 22:02:53 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:02:53 -0600 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4ed6fd4a.e36a320a.20c5.1a9c@mx.google.com> I believe they have multiple (6? More?) Pentium or Pentium Pro processors. At 07:20 PM 11/30/2011, you wrote: >Do you know if these are Intel AViiON computers or Motorola 88k based >machines? > >-Matt > >On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Tom wrote: > > > I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. Maybe > > an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not sure. No > > drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory in the next > > few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone know if there > > would be any interest? I realize my question is based on pretty sketchy > > information so far, but that's all I know. > > > > -T > > > > > > > > > > > > 434 . [Humor] My school colors were clear. --Steven Wright > > NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) > > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK > > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc > > LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User > > 385531 > > 140 . [Philosophy] Faith means not _wanting_ to know the truth. --Nietzsche NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 22:03:59 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:03:59 -0600 Subject: Data General computer In-Reply-To: References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com> <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> At 07:47 PM 11/30/2011, you wrote: >m88k Systems use standard SCSI and can use anything up to 2GB without a >problem. I have DG/UX 5.?? on CD and 4.?? on Tape here. As far as I know, the one we have uses standard SCSI (as opposed to what? Diff?) as well. >-Matt > >On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Jules Richardson < >jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Tom wrote: > > > >> I might be soon coming into possession of some Data General stuff. Maybe > >> an Aviion 66. There's a second one, maybe a model 37? I'm not sure. No > >> drives. I'm going to see what's there and post the inventory in the next > >> few weeks. I've never heard of any demand for these; anyone know if there > >> would be any interest? > >> > > > > Well the m88k-based systems tickle my interest (for no other reason than > > the choice of CPU) - I think they switched over to boring ol' Intel at some > > point, though :-) > > > > I don't know how widespread copies of the OS are, and if there are any > > 'gotchas' involved with rebuilding a machine that's lacking disks... > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > > 471 . [Commentary] It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. --Twain NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From evan at snarc.net Wed Nov 30 23:24:00 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 05:24:00 +0000 Subject: Steve Jobs Message-ID: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry> Tonight I finished reading Walter Isaacson's book about Jobs. It is very good, and I highly recommend it. I urge cctalk'ers to read it and constantly keep in mind * the big picture * instead of being your usual nit-picky selves about tech details. From mwichary at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 23:32:00 2011 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:32:00 -0800 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry> References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: Interesting ? I personally found it disappointing on many levels. Instead of enumerating them all here, I strongly encourage to listen to the fantastic episode of the *Hypercritical* podcast, which splendidly enumerates the many flaws on the book (most of which I agree with): http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/42 If you haven?t had enough, the next episode tells even more: http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43 On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Tonight I finished reading Walter Isaacson's book about Jobs. It is very > good, and I highly recommend it. > > I urge cctalk'ers to read it and constantly keep in mind * the big picture > * instead of being your usual nit-picky selves about tech details. > >